# News & Current Events > Individual Rights Violations: Case Studies >  Adam Kokesh & Iraq Vets Arrested at the New York Presidential Debate!

## Bill M DC

Adam Kokesh, Geoff Milard and Nick Morgan of the DC chapter of Iraq Veterans Against the War and other IVAW members were charged by riot police on horse back in Hempstead, NY. Nick Morgan was trampled by a police horse and suffered injuries to his head and torso. He is at this moment being seen by a doctor before being carted off for processing. IVAW member Liam Madden is on location and phoning in situation reports.

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## DAFTEK

woooow/.... I hope they are ok...

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## ItsTime

what did they do?

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## RockEnds

> woooow/.... I hope they are ok...


+1

Wow.

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## NEPA_Revolution

sad... it really is very sad.

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## brandon

> what did they do?


They probably tried to speak out against the war while not being inside a free speech zone.

Seriously

Read this post again and let it sink in.

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## liberteebell

> sad... it really is very sad.


Indeed.  Very.

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## Bill M DC

Reports are spotty so far. Police moved those not wishing arrest onto a side walk. One individual left the side walk and stepped into the street. Police took that as reason to assault and arrest the entire group. Nick Morgan is in hospital receiving stitches to an unspecified head/face wound and chest xrays.

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## ItsTime

> They probably tried to speak out against the war while not being inside a free speech zone.
> 
> Seriously
> 
> Read this post again and let it sink in.


I understand the post better than you think. I just wanted to know the charges.

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## ItsTime

> Reports are spotty so far. Police moved those not wishing arrest onto a side walk. One individual left the side walk and stepped into the street. Police took that as reason to assault and arrest the entire group. Nick Morgan is in hospital receiving stitches to an unspecified head/face wound and chest xrays.


I hope everyone is ok and its on film. We will make it viral in seconds.

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## brandon

> I understand the post better than you think. I just wanted to know the charges.





Most likely obstructing a sidewalk or disorderly conduct.

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## RJB

They are in my prayers.  This happened to the WWI vets too.

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## ronpaulhawaii

speechless...

standing by...

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## torchbearer

I'm waiting for the shot heard around the world.
Eventually enough will be enough.

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## MsDoodahs

Bill, any updates for us?

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## ItsTime

vets beat by cops. ill say it again. I am more scared of the police than of our own army paroling the streets. These pigs have been trained to take away your civil rights and use torture as a means to take them  away.

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## Pete

> vets beat by cops.


Obscenity.

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## RSLudlum

> vets beat by cops. .



*Hey Mr. Glenn Beck, you're watching right????  Lets see you cover this in your next broadcast!!!!!*

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## ItsTime

> *Hey Mr. Glenn Beck, you're watching right????  Lets see you cover this in your next broadcast!!!!!*


Ill keep quoting this...

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## LibertiORDeth

> Ill keep quoting this...


What's with your guys' avatars?

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## torchbearer

> What's with your guys' avatars?


Flag of the Sons of Liberty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_Liberty

And mine- see my sig.

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## RSLudlum

> What's with your guys' avatars?



my great...grandfather was a prominent member, he's also known for this flag:

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## Nirvikalpa

God I hope they all are ok.

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## muzzled dogg

wish we were all there with them

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## LibertiORDeth

> my great...grandfather was a prominent member, he's also known for this flag:


How many times removed?

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## torchbearer

> wish we were all there with them


I may have done something that would have made Gandhi cry.
It is better for me to be home right now. I'm too pissed right now.

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## HVACTech

hey shemmdog,
I agree, I just heard about this on dailypaul. someone was good enough to alert us. do you remember meeting Adam at ronstock? I talked with him quite a bit, 
Ken

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## TER

Lord have mercy on us

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## pdubya

we must follow this closely.  i believe this is a significant event, especially if the Patriot Act will be used against them in court, er....out of court.....enforcement wise that has already happened...judicially we'll see.  damn, where are all of the activist judges when you need them?

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## UnReconstructed

> I may have done something that would have made Gandhi cry.
> It is better for me to be home right now. I'm too pissed right now.


+1

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## RSLudlum

> How many times removed?


Not exactly sure, but by my mother's father's (Gadsden) side of the family.  We are true Charleston natives that still live in Charleston.  I'll ask my mother tomorrow.

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## NEPA_Revolution

When can we get the video and digg it to the front page.

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## Uriel999

Youtube or it happened  but we don't get to see the youtube and see how it happened.

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## RickyJ

> Adam Kokesh, Geoff Milard and Nick Morgan of the DC chapter of Iraq Veterans Against the War and other IVAW members were charged by riot police on horse back in Hempstead, NY. Nick Morgan was trampled by a police horse and suffered injuries to his head and torso. He is at this moment being seen by a doctor before being carted off for processing. IVAW member Liam Madden is on location and phoning in situation reports.



Prayers go out for Nick and all of these brave men for daring to stand up to the establishment. I hope Nick isn't hurt too bad. This really makes me mad. They said they would not resist arrest, there was no reason to hurt anyone.

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## IPSecure

http://www.indypendent.org/2008/10/1...ial-debate-at/

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## JK/SEA

> http://www.indypendent.org/2008/10/1...ial-debate-at/



http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=163285

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## torchbearer

> http://www.indypendent.org/2008/10/1...ial-debate-at/


Should we post updates in the comments?
People need to know officers trampled a vet with his horse.

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## JK/SEA

Is Nick Morgan a Vet?. He was the one trampled.
 Reports say civilians were also involved.

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## torchbearer

> Is Nick Morgan a Vet?. He was the one trampled.
>  Reports say civilians were also involved.


If they were on the front lines tonight... they are soldiers in my book.
Minutemen at the least. Much Respect.

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## hillertexas

http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=313131

Another thread in another forum about it...no new info as of yet

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## ronpaulhawaii

Just starting to get out, no video of arrests yet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_cjY0JJigA

http://digg.com/politics/Protest_Out...s_vs_Army_Vets

http://digg.com/world_news/Breaking_...ide_Presidenti


_hey mr. Glenn beck, you're watching right????  Lets see you cover this in your next broadcast!!!!!_

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## Zolah

> *hey mr. Glenn beck, you're watching right????  Lets see you cover this in your next broadcast!!!!!*


+1776

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## hillertexas

dugg

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## smileylovesfreedom

I found some raw video 

http://sharerevmedia.com/index.php?o...tlink&id=67556

http://sharerevmedia.com/component/o...tlink/id,67554

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## torchbearer

I feel so useless right now. Injustice is stinking up the air.... I'm seeing red.

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## torchbearer

> I found some raw video 
> 
> http://sharerevmedia.com/component/o...tlink/id,67554


Blood of an american soldier...

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## RonPaulVolunteer

Hmm... Just tried to call Adam and no answer. Sent a text message and no reply. As soon as I talk to him I'll let you know. Adam and I talked for over an hour today and he never mentioned going to the protest himself. He was more interested in getting the new MacBook

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## Crowish

This isn't even the beginning of the beginning yet. We all are going to have to find a way to deal with it until we reach our own personal line in the sand.

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## smileylovesfreedom

http://www.bethemedia.org/

Collection of videos on this site.

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## torchbearer

Every Man has a breaking point... and I've about reached mine.

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## Kacey

This is over the top, wonder if its going to be covered at all on by big media? I for one am PISSED OFF.

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## Dustancostine

> Every Man has a breaking point... and I've about reached mine.


Right there with you

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## rbu

Disgusting. It's only a matter of time!

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## Crowish

The hour of great trial was approaching. Again and again, as will appear later on, Washington himself felt keenly the character of the position in which he found his discouraged and depleted forces and in letter after letter he freely expressed his concern. The bards lent encouragement in the newspapers and broadsides of the day. Witness one of their numerous effusions appropriately entitled, "OnIndependence," and issued little over a month after the Declaration:

Come all you brave soldiers, both valiant and free,
It's for Independence we all now agree,
Let us gird on our swords, and prepare to defend
Our liberty, property, ourselves and our friends.

In a cause that's so righteous, come let us agree,
And from hostile invaders set America free;
The cause is so glorious we need not to fear
But from merciless tyrants we'll set ourselves clear.

Heaven's blessing attending us, no tyrant shall say
That Americans e'er to such monsters gave way;
But, righting, we'll die in America's cause,
Before we'll submit to tyrannical laws.

George the Third, of Great Britain, no more shall he reign,
With unlimited sway o'er these free states again;
Lord North, nor old Bute, nor none of their clan,
Shall ever be honor'd by an American.

May heaven's blessing descend on our United States,
And grant that the union may never abate;
May love, peace and harmony ever be found
For to go hand in hand America round.


http://books.google.com/books?id=fxixlXR0wH8C&printsec

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## Danke

Is tasing a police horse a felony...probably.

Enough with the "shame, shame" yelling.  "$#@! You" will do.

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## ronpaulhawaii

http://digg.com/politics/The_Blood_o...merican_Street

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## torchbearer

> http://digg.com/politics/The_Blood_o...merican_Street


Makes"Don't Tread on Me" have a very real meaning.
I'm sorry, but I don't know how they kept their cool. 
I'm seriously in rage mode.


Look at the pricks on horse back... see how they fall.

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## torchbearer

> Is tasing a police horse a felony...probably.
> 
> Enough with the "shame, shame" yelling.  "$#@! You" will do.


A police horse is considered an officer under the law.
I wouldn't have bothered with the horses.... they are only beast of burden.

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## ronpaulhawaii

Moral outrage is the most powerful motivating force in politics. - Blackwell

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## torchbearer

> Moral outrage is the most powerful motivating force in politics. - Blackwell


Make a new thread with all your diggs in the original post.
We will try to get all of them front page.

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## raiha

> Enough with the "shame, shame" yelling. "$#@! You" will do.


Adam is way too articulate to express himself like that. God i wonder what happened!!!
This is horrible. I suspect he is too disciplined/ trained to get caught up in an anarchic tantrum. :

Anyone able to go up and try and visit him if he is in custody or don't they let you?
Why don't a whole bunch of you go there and ask to see him? If i lived in your country i would!

 He's family!!!

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## torchbearer

> Adam is way too articulate to express himself like that. God i wonder what happened!!!
> This is horrible. I suspect he is too disciplined/ trained to get caught up in an anarchic tantrum. :
> 
> Anyone able to go up and try and visit him if he is in custody or don't they let you?
> Why don't a whole bunch of you go there and ask to see him? If i lived in your country i would!
> 
>  He's family!!!


Only an attorney can visit someone outside of visiting hours.

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## lucius

> Is tasing a police horse a felony...probably.
> 
> Enough with the "shame, shame" yelling.  "$#@! You" will do.


lion urine (or any big cat) sprinkled on the ground around you--no horse will come near you...

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## RickyJ

What I want to know is why these city cops were on horses anyway? 

Was it their intention to use them as weapons to trample people with?

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## torchbearer

> What I want to know is why these city cops were on horses anyway? 
> 
> Was it their intention to use them as weapons to trample people with?


The Calvary of the police/para-military force.

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## lucius

> What I want to know is why these city cops were on horses anyway? 
> 
> Was it their intention to use them as weapons to trample people with?


armed mounted calvary is extremely effective against civilians...

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## raiha

O


> nly an attorney can visit someone outside of visiting hours.


Well in that case, storm the Bastille!

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## torchbearer

> O
> 
> Well in that case, storm the Bastille!


If it was in Louisiana, and I had a few of my friends... that may be in the works for the night.
But then again, if it was in Alexandria, I could probably get him out with my connections without blood.

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## tropicangela

Look at this $#@!.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i...tYPnAD93RC7900




> Police: 15 protesters arrested outside LI debate
> 
> 41 minutes ago
> 
> HEMPSTEAD, N.Y. (AP)  Police say 15 people have been arrested during anti-war protests outside the Long Island university campus where the presidential debate was held.
> 
> Nassau County Police Lt. Kevin Smith says the 15 protesters were arrested on disorderly conduct charges Wednesday night outside the gates of Hofstra University in Hempstead. He says they identified themselves as Iraq war veterans.
> 
> Police say they were arrested trying to get onto the campus after they had been turned away from a university gate. They say one person may have received a minor injury and has been taken to a nearby hospital.
> ...

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## torchbearer

at least they aren't hiding the news.

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## tropicangela

> They say one person may have received a minor injury and has been taken to a nearby hospital.


That doesn't sound right!

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## ronpaulhawaii

> Make a new thread with all your diggs in the original post.
> We will try to get all of them front page.


Done

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=1766427

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## JenH88

I have no words.. no words.. I am just fuming right now...

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## Danke

> Adam is way too articulate to express himself like that. God i wonder what happened!!!


I'm not talking about one man's voice, giving a speech or being interviewed.  It was a crown yelling.  "$#@! You" in that case is more aggressive and articulates the point more effectively IMO.



Shame Shame



vs. FU

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## Kyora

> Look at this $#@!.
> 
> http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i...tYPnAD93RC7900


Notice how there's no mention of the protesters being mostly college students and Iraq war veterans.

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## tropicangela

> Link to Vid - http://www.newsday.com/video/?autoSt...clipId=3030912


This video was really edited.  No blood shown.  No violence by the police.

8:30pm
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/na...,3632140.story




> Mounted police pushed a group of about 200 people away from the gates, *inciting some protesters to hurl obscenities at the police.*





> Most of those arrested were expected to be released on court appearance tickets for Nov. 10, police said.


----------------------------------

11:31pm update
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/po...,2042092.story




> At least two people were hurt in the commotion when a police horse stepped on them, witnesses said. Ambulances responded and left with at least one person, whose identity and condition were not available.

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## Crowish

Any updates?

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## Bill M DC

Last word I got last night was that Nick Morgan was released from the hospital and listed as "Fit for confinement". All arrestees would be served an appearance ticket and released. Still waiting on telephone call from the DC crew.

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## sevin

> *Hey Mr. Glenn Beck, you're watching right????  Lets see you cover this in your next broadcast!!!!!*

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## acptulsa

Is Mr. Morgan a vet?  Because if he is, we need to spread this news to veterans' organizations.

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## Bill M DC

Nick Morgan is a combat vet who served as a combat engineer. One of the most peaceful people I know.

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## acptulsa

> Nick Morgan is a combat vet who served as a combat engineer. One of the most peaceful people I know.


A _sapper?!_

God bless that patriot!!

Get this news to every veteran you know!

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## Bill M DC

> http://digg.com/politics/The_Blood_o...merican_Street
> 
> http://digg.com/world_news/Breaking_...ide_Presidenti
> 
> http://digg.com/politics/Protest_Out...s_vs_Army_Vets
> 
> Digg/Shout/Comment
> 
> Make these viral
> ...


http://www.bethemedia.org/

Pandemonium outside Hofstra debate: Mounted police push back protesters and spectators. At least three trampled and injured. Fifteen arrested

Pandemonium erupted outside Hofstra University tonight around 8pm, just one hour before the third and final US Presidential debate.

Mounted police pushed back veterans, protesters, and spectators. Fifteen people were arrested, and at least three injured.

The incident occurred as members of Iraq Veterans Against the War (IVAW) attempted to enter the debate and ask a question of the presidential candidates.

According to eyewitnesses, after the protesters tried to cross the street to enter the Hofstra campus, mounted police pushed the crowd back onto the sidewalk, causing at least three people to be trampled under police horses.

Exclusive video and interviews (note this article was originally written for and summarized on Huffington Post's OffTheBus):


This is an overview of Hempstead Turnpike from the southwest corner, facing north towards the entrance to Hofstra University.

The camera follows the police on horseback to the opposite (east) side of the street, where peaceful protesters are rallying.

You can hear CodePink4Peace members singing "We are singing for a peaceful world."


This is an interview with CodePink, taken about two hours prior to the incident.

The CodePink group was on the opposite (southeast) corner from where the incident would take place. The sidewalks are not very deep - only about 10 feet wide - and overflowing with people.

(NOTE: CodePink was on the opposite side of the street, and not involved in the incident).

From the interview: "We are the peace platform. We are promoting peace as the main form of change that we are all waiting for."

This video was taken about 8pm, from the southeast corner, facing west. The mounted police were trying to keep the Iraq Veterans Against the War members off the street by pushing them back onto the sidewalk, which was overflowing with observers, students, and civilians.

<Apologies for the raw footage. The light was really bad, I didn't have a strobe, and I was not able to cross over to the west side of the street to get closer to the melee.>

A higher resolution version of the tape shows that there is a person lying on the ground with their hands covering their head, under and alongside two of about six horses.

A few people started chanting "horse$#@!" and "bull$#@!," until CodePink members overwhelmed them with choruses of "Peace, Shalom, Shalom."


I finally got to the west side of the street. This video shows the injured spectator getting into an ambulance, bleeding from her face and head.

I interviewed her before she received medical attention. I suggested that she get medical attention, and directed her towards the ambulances.

I'd post that video, but I never got her approval, and anyway the light was really bad and people were shouting so loudly that you can't really hear her.


Blood on the streets in Hempstead, NY. The crowd chants "Shame! Shame!" at the assembled police line.


Three eyewitnesses from IVAW: Sargent Jason Wayne Lemieux (sp?), USMC; Sargent Liam Madden, USMC and co-chair, IVAW; and Jabar McGruder (sp?), Blackhawk helicopter mechanic, Army National Guard.


According to Jason:

"Six veterans attempted to get into the debate. They tried to move past the police line and were arrested. The riot line started pushing us back across the street. They just kept pushing and pushing. Occasionally one officer would charge their horse forward into the crowd. One of the times that they charged forward...they actually stepped on several of our members including one member who was stepped on the face by a horse. A civilian was also trampled. "


According to Liam:

"We were trying to peacefully enter the debates to ask <the candidates> questions. ... We arranged this with the police beforehand, they knew that we were being non-violent. ... The police continued to charge the horses at the protesters, activists and civilians...resulting in the stepping on an Iraq veteran by a horse..."



According to Jabar (sp?):

"The horses began to essentially push us across the street, and we got pushed back so far there was nowhere to go. And the last charge, is when our member got stepped on."

"I have not seen injuries like that since Iraq. Seeing people laying on the ground like that. I don't need to go through that here in the streets. I don't need to go through that here in America."

"And this is what I got tonight for trying to peacefully bring a message to these candidates. Both of them claim that they support veterans, and this is how we got supported tonight. By being pushed back and trampled and arrested."


Two spectator eyewitnesses:

"They kept pushing us further back until we got to the sidewalk, and they told us to get onto the sidewalk. And they continued to bring the horses up onto the sidewalk. A few IVAW members tried to break through the line and they were trampled, along with another woman." 

About 45 minutes after the incident, the only corporate outlet to cover the event was Fox. They interviewed three eyewitnesses, one of whom was apparently injured.

Woman One:

"There was no violence by anybody. They called for non-violence."

Woman Two:

"All of us said that it was non-violent. They sent out press releases that told all the men in charge that it was going to be a non-violent protest."

"I got pushed with horses, I got pushed down by a man with a nightstick. I got pushed down onto the ground by a SWAT team. We kept on saying "non-violent, non-violent," and they continued to push all of us."

Man One:

"They weren't just backing us up slowly, they shoved her to the ground. And that officer did not have a badge, or any kind of identification on his chest, so that we could know who our civil servant is that's supposed to be protecting us. Who shoved her to the ground so carelessly,and putting her life in danger."

"The same officers who led their horses out of control that might have killed an Iraqi veteran here tonight, stomping his head with their horse."

<Me: I'd be interested in seeing if this appears on Fox, and if so, what angle they will take...>          

In this clip, I asked a few patrol officers for some information on those arrested. They gave me the number for Police Investigations.

According to police, fifteen people were arrested and charged with disorderly conduct, including IVAW DC chapter members Adam Kokesh, Geoff Milard, and Nick Morgan. Morgan suffered injuries to his head and chest when he was trampled, but was released from the hospital as of this writing.

As of 1am eastern time, fourteen people were released on court appearance tickets scheduled for November 10. One person is still being held for refusing to sign paperwork.

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## Bill M DC

> Hofstra Univ: 3 injured, 15 arrested parts 1-12
> 
> 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4un9lejuMo
> 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWzWhT0pCO0
> 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxL6rrRv4xg
> 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLRwdHIkr48
> 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fU8iFUEjAY
> 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjTzNx7cvTU
> 7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZDf_J2UoNM
> ...


Thanks Ninja Homer

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## Bruno

Palin speech live right now where she thanks a veteran:  

"Thank you, thank you, thank you.  Thank you for allowing us to assemble peacefully here.  Thank you for our freedoms"  

Seems ironic considering last night's assault on veterans.

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## tropicangela

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/...tial_debate_in 
*
Extended video of the vets going in.*

http://play.rbn.com/?url=demnow/demn...sp&start=52:06

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## Sandra

I am wondering if agents provocateurs were rallying protesters to cross the street. This is the type thing they do. It seems a majority of those that followed were teens, the rest stayed on the sidewalk. Why Adam did it is anyone's guess.

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## fedup100

> What I want to know is why these city cops were on horses anyway? 
> 
> Was it their intention to use them as weapons to trample people with?


It worked in Argentina!

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## acptulsa

Can someone who can do videos intersperse that footage with Tianmen (sp?) Square footage?  Is there really a difference between a tank and a horse from a pedestrian point of view?

Americans have been tut-tutting T. Square footage for years.  I don't think this is all that different an incident.  Except, of course, that this isn't college students it's an honest-to-God _sapper_.

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## ronpaulhawaii

> ... Why Adam did it is anyone's guess.


Here is why...




> Dear Mr Schieffer,
> 
> I'm writing you today as a member of Iraq Veterans Against the War to
> make clear the details of a demonstration we will be leading Oct. 15th
> at Hofstra University prior to the final presidential debate and what
> our demands are and will be.
> 
> We in IVAW demand that two of our members, myself and Kristofer
> Goldsmith, be permitted entry to the debate and be allowed to ask each
> ...

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## BlueCalico

http://kokesh.chipin.com/vetern-comp...on-adam-kokesh

They're going to need funds to get out of jail.

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## Bill M DC

> http://kokesh.chipin.com/vetern-comp...on-adam-kokesh
> 
> They're going to need funds to get out of jail.


They are already out but will have to return to court on a later date.

The DC crew is in Philly where Nick Morgan will be going to the VA hospital to get a second opinion on his ribs which the attending physician in Hempstead said were not broken.

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## SDJoseph

> http://www.bethemedia.org/
> 
> As of 1am eastern time, fourteen people were released on court appearance tickets scheduled for November 10. One person is still being held for refusing to sign paperwork.



Any word on who is refusing to sign?

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## rightofpeople

> Every Man has a breaking point... and I've about reached mine.


That's what I'm wondering about, are those in control just waiting for someone to snap and start shooting police officers so they can justify carrying firearms instead of batons? Or Martial Law?

Unfortunately, if it degrades to anyone getting shot, the last person on most people's mind would probably be the Fed Chairman. I doubt the first person driven to that extreme would be that savvy.

What a strong message that would send though, if someone bypassed all the government puppets and went straight at the Fed.

Then for sure it would be Martial Law!

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## Bill M DC

> Any word on who is refusing to sign?


No name so far.

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## Bill M DC

> Every Man has a breaking point... and I've about reached mine.


Constituent has just about pushed me to mine with his ignorant drivel.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=163285

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## Ninja Homer

> Constituent has just about pushed me to mine with his ignorant drivel.
> 
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=163285


+1


ronpaulhawaii:
Further, your comment about launching political careers sounds like sour grapes. Are you saying that someone like Adam joined the military to launch a poli-career?

constituent:
lol, no. other than his working as an agent provocateur adam kokesh is entirely irrelevant (though i have no doubts that posturing for a political career is exactly what these stunts are about, just look to Viet Nam and the "war resistance" movement back then, nothing new under the sun bro)

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## Sandra

> Constituent has just about pushed me to mine with his ignorant drivel.
> 
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=163285


  Bill with all due respect, you've made a measly 147 posts since you joined almost a year ago. To all of a sudden scream that you're over the edge at a long time poster sounds ridiculous. Thin skinned?

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## RJB

> Bill with all due respect, you've made a measly 147 posts since you joined almost a year ago. To all of a sudden scream that you're over the edge at a long time poster sounds ridiculous. Thin skinned?


Post count has nothing to do with the debate.

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## Ninja Homer

> Bill with all due respect, you've made a measly 147 posts since you joined almost a year ago. To all of a sudden scream that you're over the edge at a long time poster sounds ridiculous. Thin skinned?


A long time poster here is like a long time politician in congress.  It doesn't mean anything unless their record is looked into.

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## Bill M DC

> Bill with all due respect, you've made a measly 147 posts since you joined almost a year ago. To all of a sudden scream that you're over the edge at a long time poster sounds ridiculous. Thin skinned?





> A long time poster here is like a long time politician in congress.  It doesn't mean anything unless their record is looked into.


Sorry it's kinda hard organizing for Ron Paul in DC, walking my precinct, actions on Capitol Hill, actions all over DC, the DNC, the RNC, postering, fund raising, helping war resisters and the myriad of other things I do to slow the march of militarism, fascism, socialism...you name it and then piddle my time away posting on the forums.

Thin skinned? I wouldn't be doing what I do and still working for Uncle Sam if I was.

Your long time poster went over the edge. He can't seem to stfu long enough to try to understand the dynamics of things in which he, as far as I know, has no involvement.

He sits around judging,bitching and ridiculing others and what they do to remedy our predicament.

Thin skinned? More like disgusted and out-raged!

8,498 posts? Humph! Tis better to remain silent and appear ignorant than to run your mouth all over the place and remove all doubt.

Perhaps rising in defense of my Brothers against slanderous BS is thin skinned...perhaps it's just the RIGHT thing to do.

----------


## Trigonx

> Bill with all due respect, you've made a measly 147 posts since you joined almost a year ago. To all of a sudden scream that you're over the edge at a long time poster sounds ridiculous. Thin skinned?


-1000.


posts like this fail hard.  Number of posts means nothing.  And the amount of time he has been signed up means almost nothing as well.  You kinda have to look at what is said and then come to a conclusion and then post, and not just look at the little box of irrelevant data and come to a conclusion and then post.

----------


## ItsTime

pigs all of them

----------


## ItsTime

> http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/...tial_debate_in 
> *
> Extended video of the vets going in.*
> 
> http://play.rbn.com/?url=demnow/demn...sp&start=52:06


quote to let others see

----------


## micahnelson

Correct me if I am wrong...

They demanded to be let in to a debate and were arrested upon trying to enter the debate without invitation.

----------


## torchbearer

> That's what I'm wondering about, are those in control just waiting for someone to snap and start shooting police officers so they can justify carrying firearms instead of batons? Or Martial Law?
> 
> Unfortunately, if it degrades to anyone getting shot, the last person on most people's mind would probably be the Fed Chairman. I doubt the first person driven to that extreme would be that savvy.
> 
> What a strong message that would send though, if someone bypassed all the government puppets and went straight at the Fed.
> 
> Then for sure it would be Martial Law!


Stay inside, its safer.
I'm hanging with the guys from Concord.

----------


## Godfather89

Wow, I am a shamed to be a Long Islander on this day. I walked to school today and went down Earle Ovington Blvd. A road right off north campus of Hofstra that leads to NCC. If you Google Map: Hofstra and NCC you would see how close we are to that place.  Anyway, that night I was happy but angry. Happy that I know their are Islanders around where I live that are willing to step up when the time comes but also angry to see that our police is just as ready to do wrong and fight the dissenters.

This is why if their is anyone in and around East Meadow, Levittown, Uniondale, Hempstead to please send me a message I want to arrange further activities and get something big going. Long Island needs to grow upon the voice it made last night.

By the way what hospital did Nick Morgan, being treated for is police brutality injuries? I bet it was NUMC. Also, how many protesters were there?

----------


## dr. hfn

bump

----------


## Bill M DC

> By the way what hospital did Nick Morgan, being treated for is police brutality injuries? I bet it was NUMC. Also, how many protesters were there?


Nick Morgan and the rest of the IVAW DC crew headed out to Philly this morning and stopped into the VA hospital to get Nick checked out. They should be back in DC in a few hours.

----------


## Bill M DC

I just got off the phone with Nick's GF. She says that Nick is going to be in Philly for at least a week because he needs surgery. We're sending his car and some clothes up with another member tonight.

----------


## Calpico

This is $#@!ing ridiculous! This is how we treat the men and women who served our country? This is the Bush police state rearing its ugly head. It's a shame none of the major media outlets are reporting this. I guess their afraid that all of the training the veterans got will be used against the federal government!


[deleted by Mad Tyrant Moderator - + Posting of direct or inferred threats of violence against other people or property that is not your own is completely unacceptable by any user and subject to immediate banning.]

----------


## RockEnds

> I just got off the phone with Nick's GF. She says that Nick is going to be in Philly for at least a week because he needs surgery. We're sending his car and some clothes up with another member tonight.


Best wishes to him.  I hope it's nothing too serious.

----------


## Bill M DC

Let's get behind these guys. Phone bomb the Nasau County PD!

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gi...2710299&ref=nf

----------


## ClockwiseSpark

Adam was just released. 


Time to gear up for a phone and letter bomb. Let's show these pricks what we think of their behavior.

----------


## ItsTime

> Let's get behind these guys. Phone bomb the Nasau County PD!
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gi...2710299&ref=nf


faxed

http://FaxZero.com

----------


## constituent

> A long time poster here is like a long time politician in congress.  It doesn't mean anything unless their record is looked into.


i realize that you're a total fanboi w/ a man crush on a.k. and no one is allowed to talk crossly in his direction w/out incurring your wrath or wtfever, but in regards to my record:

look into it.

i've done my part, how 'bout you?

----------


## constituent

> Sorry it's kinda hard organizing for Ron Paul in DC, walking my precinct, actions on Capitol Hill, actions all over DC, the DNC, the RNC, postering, fund raising, helping war resisters and the myriad of other things I do to slow the march of militarism, fascism, socialism...you name it and then piddle my time away posting on the forums.
> 
> Thin skinned? I wouldn't be doing what I do and still working for Uncle Sam if I was.


Still working for Uncle Same, eh?

(maybe you're just bad w/ sentence structure and meant to say that you would not be working for uncle sam considering you do what you do.... in that case... WAKETHEFUCKUP YOU USEFUL IDIOT)

I figured as much.




> Your long time poster went over the edge.


Which edge?  Yours?  Stick it.




> He can't seem to stfu long enough to try to understand the dynamics of things in which he, as far as I know,


You know very little.  Typical Meathead.




> He sits around judging,bitching and ridiculing others and what they do to remedy our predicament.


Wow, bring it up w/ me bud.  Sit here and talk $#@! when you think i'm not looking.  

Were you not such an intellectual lightweight i have no doubt you would have previously, rather than choosing to threaten me as you did (typical meathead) and then running off to talk smack in another thread.




> Thin skinned? More like disgusted and out-raged!


No, you're thin skinned and incapable of considering other points of view.

Anything running contrary to your preformed, kool-aid induced notions of reality are "ignorant drivel."




> 8,498 posts? Humph! Tis better to remain silent and appear ignorant than to run your mouth all over the place and remove all doubt.


Lol, right back atcha.




> Perhaps rising in defense of my Brothers against slanderous BS is thin skinned...perhaps it's just the RIGHT thing to do.



Slanderous?  Clearly you do not know the definition.


Advice to you:

"Tis better to remain silent and appear ignorant than to run your mouth.... and remove all doubt."

Might brush up on the forum guidelines too...

oh yea, and property rights while you're at it.

----------


## constituent

> Correct me if I am wrong...
> 
> They demanded to be let in to a debate and were arrested upon trying to enter the debate without invitation.


no, that's exactly right.

laws don't apply to the military though, nor do the rights of others, or hadn't you heard.

----------


## constituent

> -1000.
> 
> 
> posts like this fail hard.  Number of posts means nothing.  And the amount of time he has been signed up means almost nothing as well.  You kinda have to look at what is said and then come to a conclusion and then post, and not just look at the little box of irrelevant data and come to a conclusion and then post.


Then i would encourage you to examine my contributions and continued dedication to the revolution.

Welcome to the American Meritocracy, God bless it.

----------


## ronpaulhawaii

Ryan, I fail to see where Bill threatened you with physical violence, further you have been insulting people directly here all day.

You made your bed, lie in it

----------


## constituent

> Ryan, I fail to see where Bill threatened you with physical violence, further you have been insulting people directly here all day.
> 
> You made your bed, lie in it


LoL, w/ever.  I see the score.

That said, i insulted no one that didn't come at me first, were it not for your selective inaction (and the selective inaction of other "mods,") my demeanor would have been much more pleasant.

Sorry, fed up w/ the bull$#@! and everyone's head up their asses, that includes you.

I know everyone enjoyed/enjoys their little sixties, look at me i'm on tv moments, but it's time to examine reality and act accordingly.

As a mod. your post was inappropriate and belonged in a pm, btw.

----------


## ronpaulhawaii

> LoL, w/ever.  I see the score.


Whatever score you see, you seem to be on a different field. I don't know what has got up your ass but it ain't pretty




> That said, i insulted no one that didn't come at me first, were it not for your selective inaction (and the selective inaction of other "mods,") my demeanor would have been much more pleasant.


Oh bull, you came out blazing and haven't stopped




> Sorry, fed up w/ the bull$#@! and everyone's head up their asses, that includes you.


Sorry to hear that, thought you had a thicker skin




> I know everyone enjoyed/enjoys their little sixties, look at me i'm on tv moments, but it's time to examine reality and act accordingly.


I fail to see how you are helping that process. Your first sentence above is indicative of the attitude you have displayed throughout this incident. Seems arrogant to me




> As a mod. your post was inappropriate and belonged in a pm, btw.


I like open source

----------


## constituent

> Oh bull, you came out blazing and haven't stopped


Prove it.




> I fail to see how you are helping that process. Your first sentence above is indicative of the attitude you have displayed throughout this incident. Seems arrogant to me



Only b/c you disagree.





> I like open source


Cut the $#@!.

----------


## ronpaulhawaii

> Prove it.


You went from your "two words" snip, to the "that includes you" attack




> Only b/c you disagree.


You seem to have no idea why I engaged you. 




> Cut the $#@!.


No.

----------


## constituent

> You went from your "two words" snip, to the "that includes you" attack


You said i came out "blazing" referring to the other thread where i was "insulting people all day."

You were wrong, so i asked you to prove it.  You subsequently turn around and say your proof is my post above?

Get w/ it or lay off it bro.


and again, all this $#@! belongs in PM.  as a mod you should know better.

p.s., it does include you.

----------


## constituent

wanna pull your head out of your ass?


start here:




(inspiration for my avatar and the movie that i'm building around it, btw)

----------


## ronpaulhawaii

> You said i came out "blazing" referring to the other thread where i was "insulting people all day."
> 
> You were wrong, so i asked you to prove it.  You subsequently turn around and say your proof is my post above?
> 
> Get w/ it or lay off it bro.
> 
> 
> and again, all this $#@! belongs in PM.  as a mod you should know better.
> 
> p.s., it does include you.


I have no need to review the entire day to know that you have been antagonistic and insulting to more than just the people here. It was your broadbrush that got me to engage you in the first place. Others have called you on it, yet you gave the excuse that you were too tired/headached to deal with the issue _while continueing to stir the pot_. Why should this be in PM? If that was how you really feel, why haven't you taken your own advice, in regards to all the sniping I have been watching you engage in? And don't give me that, because I am a mod $#@!. I never wanted to be one and don't act according to how people think one should act. I am me.

----------


## constituent

> It was your broadbrush that got me to engage you in the first place. Others have called you on it, yet you gave the excuse that you were too tired/headached to deal with the issue _while continueing to stir the pot_.


Naaah, if i've addressed it already, i'm too worn out to address it again.  Forgive me for being nice, i'll be more direct about it next time.




> Why should this be in PM? If that was how you really feel, why haven't you taken your own advice, in regards to all the sniping I have been watching you engage in? And don't give me that, because I am a mod $#@!..


Again, my "sniping" has only been in response to the sniping that you and the other mods have allowed to fly.  




> I never wanted to be one and don't act according to how people think one should act. I am me


I reckon if you never wanted to be one, you wouldn't be one.  Perhaps you should let josh know that it is not your desire to be a mod, certainly there are too many as it stands?  That way when insults and threats are reported they get to someone that they should, rather than becoming ammo for yet another flamewar...

I assure you, that would cut down on the insults overall, both in terms of those levying them and in terms of those who feel a need to defend themselves.

----------


## ronpaulhawaii

> Naaah, if i've addressed it already, i'm too worn out to address it again.  Forgive me for being nice, i'll be more direct about it next time.







> Again, my "sniping" has only been in response to the sniping that you and the other mods have allowed to fly.







> I reckon if you never wanted to be one, you wouldn't be one.  Perhaps you should let josh know that it is not your desire to be a mod, certainly there are too many as it stands?  That way when insults and threats are reported they get to someone that they should, rather than becoming ammo for yet another flamewar...
> 
> I assure you, that would cut down on the insults overall, both in terms of those levying them and in terms of those who feel a need to defend themselves.


You reckon wrong.

----------


## Kludge



----------


## JenH88

Yeah... the tolerance and understanding promoted by liberty is shown so well in this thead..

----------


## meta.curious

> what did they do?



Guilty of being UNITED STATES HEROS!

----------


## MsDoodahs

Is the young man who was injured okay?

----------


## ronpaulhawaii

> Is the young man who was injured okay?


He is in Philly, needs surgery.

----------


## Nirvikalpa

Come on guys, make your peace.



... Please?

Vets are in my prayers   Esp. Nick.

----------


## jabrownie

Any word on how the surgery went?

----------


## Bill M DC

> Any word on how the surgery went?


I haven't heard anything yet as to when surgery will be done.

----------


## Bill M DC

Some of you were asking for a pay pal to donate to the Hempstead 15. IVAW National is setting up a defense fund for the 15 and medical expense fund for Nick Morgan. Nick will be needing surgery to correct a fractured cheek bone. Donations to this fund will be tax deductible. Nick is the Mid-Atlantic Regional Coordinator for IVAW and resident at the IVAW DC house. In the interim you can donate through the IVAW DC chapter pay pal account of which Nick is the holder. Please specify the purpose of your donation.

https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/websc...if%3aNonHosted

Many thanks in advance of your contribution.

----------


## IPSecure

> Some of you were asking for a pay pal to donate to the Hempstead 15. IVAW National is setting up a defense fund for the 15 and medical expense fund for Nick Morgan. Nick will be needing surgery to correct a fractured cheek bone. Donations to this fund will be tax deductible. Nick is the Mid-Atlantic Regional Coordinator for IVAW and resident at the IVAW DC house. In the interim you can donate through the IVAW DC chapter pay pal account of which Nick is the holder. Please specify the purpose of your donation.
> 
> https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/websc...if%3aNonHosted
> 
> Many thanks in advance of your contribution.


Bill,

Link is not working...

IP.

----------


## Bill M DC

Works just fine when I click it, even from the quote....hmmm

----------


## ClockwiseSpark

> Works just fine when I click it, even from the quote....hmmm


No problem for me either.

----------


## Bill M DC

Just got off the phone with Nick Morgan. He's doing well. No surgery yet but his cheek bone is mush and will require reconstructive surgery. He appreciates everyone's concern and well wishes. Below is a post I found in another thread. 




> Sir Robert Peel's Nine Principles
> 
>     * The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.
> 
>     * The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon public approval of police actions.
> 
>     * Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observance of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.
> 
>     * The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.
> ...

----------


## Bill M DC

WHAT CAN YOU DO TO SUPPORT US NOW??
----------------------------------------------------------------------

So what can YOU do about it? My fellow veteran brothers need you. We need to call the NY police department and ask them why they would trample IRAQ WAR VETERANS exercising their FREEDOM SPEECH in a peaceful manner. Is this the way members of the military who don the uniform and make an oath to defend the constitution, America, and it's people are treated? We MUST NOT ONLY hold the Police Department accountable but the Presidential Candidates as well for allowing this to happen. THIS IS NOT DEMOCRACY, THIS IS A POLICE STATE.

Below are the numbers. Call now and anytime until November 10th when the court date is set for the detained veterans. Stay posted for a possible action then.


LAWRENCE MULVEY
COMMISSIONER OF POLICE

Public Information Office
516-573-7135
516-573-7138 (24 hour)
516-573-7118 FAX


And the complaint line

Call 516-573-7000 and ask to be connected to the Desk Officer where the incident occurred (Hofstra University).

NC Police Internal Affairs Unit: 516-573-7120
NC District Attorney’s Office, Special Investigations : 516-571-2100
NYS Attorney General, Civil Rights Division: 1-800-771-7755


Thank you for your continued support,
Wendy Barranco
President
IVAW - Los Angeles
Combat Medic
SPC, USA
OIF 05-07
Tikrit, Iraq

----------


## Bill M DC

Hooves of fury stampede veterans/U.S. Constitution Oct. 15
Matthis Chiroux of the Hempstead 15" recounts his debate experience 

Wednesday, Oct. 15th, 2008, members of Iraq Veterans Against the War and supporters gathered near the Hempstead, N.Y., train station to march on the final presidential debate at Hofstra University.

Our intent was made clear in a letter to Bob Schieffer, the debate moderator, one week prior. We wanted two members of our organization inside the debate where they would ask one question of Obama and one of McCain. If CBS and the candidates failed to meet our demands, we would march on Hofstra at 7 p.m. in a peaceful attempt to enter the debate to have our voices heard.

I planned on asking Barack Obama if he would back up his assessment of the occupation of Iraq as illegal by supporting servicemembers who would thus be required to refuse service there. Kris Goldsmith planned on asking McCain about his history of failing to vote in favor of V.A. funding, especially since the beginning of the occupation of Iraq.

Non-violence was stressed in every stage leading up to this action. It was stressed by me and Kris to Det. Thomas J. Calvert and Det. Robert Annese of the Nassau County Police Department the day before the action. Calvert and Annese were in charge of security for the debate, and they assured us they would instruct their officers to respect the non-violent spirit of the action by using restraint towards peaceful veterans and demonstrators.

In every stage of planning, IVAW made every effort to keep all planned tactics and actions above the table so that the candidates, the media, the police and the country would know exactly what would happen if our demands were not met.

We were at Hofstra to force the issue that veterans and servicemembers are not being cared for or heard from by our government, and the candidates, CBS and the Nassau County Police Department couldnt have proved us more correct.

We, the veterans and our supporters, stood together in solidarity, knowing the stakes were high. But a resolve echoed deep from with us to stand our ground and be heard. Twice these candidates had brushed us off, and thrice just wasnt going to happen.

So at seven p.m. when wed heard nothing from the moderators, IVAW made good on its promise to the candidates and Det. Calvert. We marched to the front gate of Hofstra, read our questions and peacefully proceeded into police lines. 

Because these candidates cared more to hear from Joe the Plumber than veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan, ten veterans went to jail and five civilian supporters joined us.

This upsets me, but I knew the risk, and if I must fall in defense of democracy, peace and justice, I offer my sacrifice willingly.

What infuriates me is the GROSS MISCONDUCT of the police in the process, much of which I believe to be illegal.

After my arrest, the police charged their horses onto a sidewalk and unprovokedly knocked my friend Nick Morgan, a veteran of Iraq, to the ground and trampled his face. They then arrested him, put a piece of gauze on his facewound and loaded him onto a bus headed for jail with the rest of the Hempstead 15.

After they brought Nick onto the bus and we the veterans identified him as exhibiting signs of a concussion and as needing immediate medical attention, our arresting officers laughed at us and told us Nick would receive no help unless he himself asked to go to the hospital, though Nick was barely conscience and completely disoriented at the time AND THE COPS KNEW IT!

We pointed out that as a result of a serious head injury, Nick wasnt aware enough to speak for himself. The police responded with, too bad.

After Nick stirred enough for us to instruct him to ask for medical attention, he was taken to a hospital, diagnosed with a fractured cheekbone, given nothing more than Motrin for the pain and brought to the Police Station where he sat chained to a bench for 5 hours with no further medical attention at all. 

Additionally, police pulled other members and supporters of ours from the sidewalk and arrested them while horses spun in circles causing injury to most who couldnt escape their paths.

All of this, I observed after arrest through the large windows of a bus we were detained in which was parked parallel to the demonstration and subsequent atrocities.

While on the bus, the officers mocked us, calling us idiots and whiners. When we arrived at the Nassau County Detention Center, the hazing did not cease.

One officer, when I brought up the prospect of speaking to a lawyer, threatened to, put me in the back (jail), where, the big boys will pop your cherry! When I asked this officer if he had just threatened an honorably discharged veteran of Afghanistan with prison rape and told him I wanted his name and rank, he refused and told me to look it up on the police report which the Nassau County Police Department has refused to provide us a copy of.

While detained, the three females who were arrested with us, including Marine Reserve Capt. Marlisa Grogan, were sexually harassed by the police who went so far as to hold Ids next to the chained womens faces and make comments like, you look like you came out of a Barbie magazine. 

All night, they didnt stop. Youre cowards, youre idiots, they said. The hostility was thick and unwarranted. 

This non-violent protest stuff is retarded, they said (as if theyd prefer the alternative). See how it got your friends face $#@!ed up? 

Literally, they said this when they brought Nick in and chained him to the bench. The harassment only increased from there.

Look at you friends face, said one officer. Youre responsible for that. As if I gave to order to charge horses onto a crowded sidewalk.

I saw this same officer in the Colony diner where we went to eat after we were charged with disorderly conduct and released. He was with the one who threatened me with prison rape, and when I approached them respectfully and again asked for their names, he leapt to his feet, threw his finger in my face and began threatening to beat my ass if I didnt drop it.

Afterward, one of his friends, also a police officer, approached me, accused me of being drunk and said I was about to get arrested again. I retorted that his accusations were false (considering Id only gotten out of jail 30 minutes prior) and that I was only interested in learning the names of the officers who arrested and harassed us as I have the legal right to do. He responded with only his name, which he said was Peter Sikinger, but refused to reveal the names of his partners, though to his credit, he did back down from threatening me with arrest.

I am outraged at the egregious conduct of the Nassau Country Police Department and the failure of Det. Calvert to make good on his promise to make things go as smoothly as possible.

But mostly, I must put this on the candidates. 

Barack Obama and John McCain, you have failed to properly address the occupation of Iraq and veteran and servicemember issues in this campaign. You failed to hear from us, the veterans and servicemembers, at the conventions. Your overwhelming concern for Joe the Plumber at the final debate while veterans are killing themselves at a rate of 18 per month is inhumane to say the least.

The fact that you allowed your veterans to be arrested, brutalized and harassed for simply trying to be heard by you is inexcusable. Forever should your consciences be scarred for what you allowed to take place to veterans on American soil.

But our questions still stand, and we still demand answers. 

Obama, are you ready to support members of the military refusing to participate in the occupation of Iraq which you have termed illegal?

McCain, as a veteran, how can you account for your abysmal failure to vote in favor of post-2003 legislation to fund the V.A. which provides life saving services to men and women who gave all to serve this nation?	

Besides which, you both owe the Hempstead 15 an apology. You owe Nick Morgan an apology for the reconstructive surgery hell be receiving and the permanent, violent altering of his face that is a result of your failure to hear from us. 

You owe every veteran in history a public statement condemning the sidewalk trampling of Nick and Carlos Harris, an Iraq veteran, who also had his foot broken by a horse. As well Geoff Millard, a disabled veteran of Iraq with degenerative spine disease who was knocked to the ground, dragged from the sidewalk and arrested, and Nadine Lubka, one of our supporters, who was kicked in the face by a horse.

And we the people are not done forcing this issue.

I encourage every person who reads this to contact both the Obama and McCain campaigns and demand they answer our questions and condemn the actions of the police Wednesday night.

They dont own this election, the media doesnt own this election, we the people own this election, and we deserve to have our voices heard. Any candidate who disagrees with that statement is unworthy the Presidency of the United States of America. 

Peace and Solidarity,

Matthis Chiroux

----------


## Bill M DC

PLEASE CALL, WRITE AND FAX BOTH CAMPAIGNS AND DEMAND THAT THEY PUBLICLY ANSWER OUR QUESTIONS!!

See the following websites to contact each candidate!
http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/contact/
http://www.johnmccain.com/Contact/


----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Questions which we, the Veterans, wished to ask
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Senator McCain, on July 9th 2008 you were quoted saying "I've received every award from every major veterans organization in America but the reason why I have a perfect voting record from organizations like Veterans of Foreign Wars, the American Legion, and all the other Veterans Service Organizations is because of my support of them."
However, there are non-partisan Veterans Organizations such as the Disabled American Veterans (DAV), Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America (IAVA), and the Vietnam Veterans of America (VVA) who've noted that you've consistantly voted against important issues such as increased VA funding in 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007. This summer, another Veterans Organization, Veterans for Common Sense filed suit against the VA and discovered that approximately 1000 Veterans under their care are attempting suicide each month, with an average of 17 succeeding every 30 days. Government surveys conclude that over 300,000 21st Century Warriors are currently suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, while only 67 thousand have been diagnosed with with PTSD, and less than half of those are collecting disablity benefits. Doctors and Nurses at the VA are struggling to treat the 2 million American Troops who've deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan. What promises are you willing to make, as a Veteran, as a Senator, as a Presidential Candidate, to the Veterans of the United States to prove that you will ensure the VA is fully funded, staffed, and capable of preventing Troops from suffering as they are now, after they've served our great nation overseas?

-Sergeant Kristofer Goldsmith
Operation Iraqi Freedom III Veteran

------------

Senator Obama, you have said that the War and Occupation of Iraq is illegal. If by your words, it is illegal, then it is not only the right of service members such as myself to refuse deployment and participation in Iraq, it is also our responsibility. Sir, as President, are you willing to go by your own words and back them up, and support servicemembers refusing to participate in what you have, in your own words, termed an "Illegal Occupation"?

-Sergeant Matthis Chiroux
Operation Enduring Freedom Veteran

----------


## lucius

> WHAT CAN YOU DO TO SUPPORT US NOW??
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> So what can YOU do about it? My fellow veteran brothers need you. We need to call the NY police department and ask them why they would trample IRAQ WAR VETERANS exercising their FREEDOM SPEECH in a peaceful manner. Is this the way members of the military who don the uniform and make an oath to defend the constitution, America, and it's people are treated? We MUST NOT ONLY hold the Police Department accountable but the Presidential Candidates as well for allowing this to happen. THIS IS NOT DEMOCRACY, THIS IS A POLICE STATE.
> 
> Below are the numbers. Call now and anytime until November 10th when the court date is set for the detained veterans. Stay posted for a possible action then.
> 
> 
> LAWRENCE MULVEY
> ...


All fax numbers is better for me; will burn them up 24/7.

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## RockEnds

> Hooves of fury stampede veterans/U.S. Constitution Oct. 15
> Matthis Chiroux of the Hempstead 15" recounts his debate experience 
> 
> Wednesday, Oct. 15th, 2008, members of Iraq Veterans Against the War and supporters gathered near the Hempstead, N.Y., train station to march on the final presidential debate at Hofstra University.
> 
> Our intent was made clear in a letter to Bob Schieffer, the debate moderator, one week prior. We wanted two members of our organization inside the debate where they would ask one question of Obama and one of McCain. If CBS and the candidates failed to meet our demands, we would march on Hofstra at 7 p.m. in a peaceful attempt to enter the debate to have our voices heard.
> 
> I planned on asking Barack Obama if he would back up his assessment of the occupation of Iraq as illegal by supporting servicemembers who would thus be required to refuse service there. Kris Goldsmith planned on asking McCain about his history of failing to vote in favor of V.A. funding, especially since the beginning of the occupation of Iraq.
> 
> ...


Very well written and quite disturbing.

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## ronpaulhawaii

> Hooves of fury stampede veterans/U.S. Constitution Oct. 15
> Matthis Chiroux of the “Hempstead 15" recounts his debate experience 
> 
> ...
> 
> Our intent was made clear ...
> 
> Non-violence was stressed in every stage ...
> 
> ...


Bill, where is this blogged ?

"Moral outrage is the most powerful motivating force in politics" - Blackwell

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## Bill M DC

It was sent out to members of "I support Matthis Chiroux's decision not to go to Iraq" group on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=14060511029. Other than that I don't know.

From Matthis: His facebook - http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1289128291

Matthis Chirouxloves his buddy Nick. Video of him being trampled on the sidewalk: 
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6062818589753315884&hl=en

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## Bill M DC

BTW, It was Adam that refused to sign the Order/Ticket to appear because he's not going to court on the birthday of the Marine Corp on 10 Nov when everyone else will appear. Adam will be in court on Monday. He was held an additional 24+- hours and I guess they got tired of having him sitting around taking up space in their jail and let him go.

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## Sandra

> BTW, It was Adam that refused to sign the Order/Ticket to appear because he's not going to court on the birthday of the Marine Corp on 10 Nov when everyone else will appear. Adam will be in court on Monday. He was held an additional 24+- hours and I guess they got tired of having him sitting around taking up space in their jail and let him go.



Was this outta "respect" for thr birthday of the Marine Corp????? or because he wanted his own special day in court whare he was the center of attention? There seems to be some rift in agenda here.

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## torchbearer

> Was this outta "respect" for thr birthday of the Marine Corp????? or because he wanted his own special day in court whare he was the center of attention? There seems to be some rift in agenda here.


Sandra, don't.

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## torchbearer

> This non-violent protest stuff is retarded, they said (as if theyd prefer the alternative). See how it got your friends face $#@!ed up?


Next time, make sure its the officer's wife crying at his funeral.
The have no honor, and they are the $#@!ing traitors. 
This $#@! needs to stop. It never will if they don't fear us.

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## bg1654

No $#@!... if this is true, why arent these cops dead already?

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## Bill M DC

> Was this outta "respect" for thr birthday of the Marine Corp????? or because he wanted his own special day in court whare he was the center of attention? There seems to be some rift in agenda here.


It's a Marine thing. I myself was Army. It takes being around Marines a lot, which I am M-F, to understand.

Some of it I attribute to "that's just Adam being Adam" though.

His own special day? Nah, I don't think so.

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## torchbearer

> No $#@!... if this is true, why arent these cops dead already?


If pigs starty dropping like flies everytime they sign up for these types of gigs, they will be more likely to opt out, and take the weekend off with their families.

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## Magicman

Bump, what's the status on this?

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## Bill M DC

The "Hempstead 15" are due in court on Nov. 10th. Confidence is high that they can beat the charges. Nick Morgan went into surgery about 8:30 a.m. yesterday 23 Oct. The surgery went well and he is recovering in hospital.

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## Sandra

> It's a Marine thing. I myself was Army. It takes being around Marines a lot, which I am M-F, to understand.
> 
> Some of it I attribute to "that's just Adam being Adam" though.
> 
> His own special day? Nah, I don't think so.


He's consistant with it, I wish he was more in tune with the others.

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## Sandra

> Sandra, don't.


We're a military family... I will!

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## Bill M DC

> He's consistant with it, I wish he was more in tune with the others.


The "others?"?

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## torchbearer

> We're a military family... I will!


You are speculating on someone else mind, and doing so in a negative way. the only possible outcome is negative.
read up on game theory. I don't care if you are rambo, you still lose on this line of discussion.

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## Sandra

We won't agree on everything. You do have a "my way or the highway" attitude almost every time there's a disagreement. We disagree, on this and we can just leave it at that.

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## torchbearer

> We won't agree on everything. You do have a "my way or the highway" attitude almost every time there's a disagreement. We disagree, on this and we can just leave it at that.


In all interactions between people, there are four possible outcomes.
Win-WIn, win-lose, lose-win, and lose-lose.
its really that simple: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory

I've studied these type of things enough to be able to tell someone in advance, that the path of discussion will lead to one of the four boxes.
Nothing to do with "my way", everything to do with what the final score will be.
Just trying to prevent the train wreck.

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## torchbearer

If I didn't care about ya, I wouldn't bother telling you.
I often enjoy watching people crash and burn on here. I don't want to see my fellow state member look foolish.

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## Bill M DC

I road the China Town bus Friday evening to Philly and drove Nick Morgan back to DC
Saturday since he couldn't drive himself. The surgery went well. His face looks much better though he now has a titanium plate where his cheek bone use to be. The doctor was nice enough to prescribe copious amounts of narcotics for the pain so Nick is high as a kite and in good spirits.

Nick got a nice "Keep your head up son" phone call from Mike Gravel Saturday. Would be nice if Dr. Paul did the same.

The attorneys are coming out of the wood work. I'm confident Nick will be able to bring successful litigation against NCPD and those responsible for his injuries.

I'll be starting another thread: "The Hempstead 15" Updates.

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## DAFTEK

^ Great news  I hope those criminals are brought to justice and fired from the force...

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## JK/SEA

What i'm getting sick of is it seems everytime i tune in to see how the markets are doing they have Palin doing her speech and i hear her asking if there are any veterans out there and to ''raise your hand by golly, yes, we support you by golly''....

Phony BS.

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## ForLiberty-RonPaul

> Next time, make sure its the officer's wife crying at his funeral.
> The have no honor, and they are the $#@!ing traitors. 
> This $#@! needs to stop. It never will if they don't fear us.


I haven't posted in months, but this little gem deserved a response. I'll yield my time to the gentleman from Georgia.


"Perhaps my faith in love was temporarily shaken by the philosophy of Nietzsche. I had been reading parts of _The Genealogy of Morals_ and the whole of _The Will to Power_. Nietzsche's glorification of power---in his theory, all life expressed the will to power---was an outgrowth of his contempt for ordinary mortals. He attacked the whole of the Hebraic-Christian morality---with its virtues of piety and humility, its otherworldliness, and its attitude toward suffering---as the glorification of weakness, as making virtues out of necessity and impotence. He looked to the development of a superman who would surpass man as man surpassed the ape.

Then one Sunday afternoon I traveled to Philadelphia to hear a sermon by Dr. Mordecai Johnson, president of Howard University. He was there to preach for the Fellowship House of Philadelphia. Dr. Johnson had just returned from a trip to India, and, to my great interest, he spoke of the life and teachings of Mahatma Gandhi. His message was so profound and electrifying that I left the meeting and bought a half-dozen books on Gandhi's life and works.

Like most people, I had heard of Gandhi, but I had never studied him seriously. As I read I became deeply fascinated by his campaigns of nonviolent resistance. I was particularly moved by his Salt March to the Sea and his numerous fasts.  The whole concept of _Satyagraha_ (_Satya_ is truth which equals love, and _agraha_ is force; _Satyagraha_, therefore, means truth force or love force) was profoundly significant to me. As I delved deeper into the philosophy of Gandhi, my skepticism concerning the power of love gradually diminished, and I came to see for the first time its potency in the area of social reform. Prior to reading Gandhi, I had about concluded that the ethics of Jesus were only effective in individual relationships. The "turn the other cheek" philosophy and the "love your enemies" philosophy were only valid, I felt, when individuals were in conflict with other individuals; when racial groups and nations were in conflict a more realistic approach seemed necessary. But after reading Gandhi, I saw how utterly mistaken I was.

Gandhi was probably the first person in history to lift the love ethic of Jesus above mere interaction between individuals to a powerful instrument of social and collective transformation. It was in this Gandhian emphasis on love and nonviolence that I discovered the method for social reform that I had been seeking. The intellectual and moral satisfaction that I failed to gain from the utilitarianism of Bentham and Mill, the revolutionary methods of Marx and Lenin, the social contracts theory of Hobbes, the "back to nature" optimism of Rousseau, the superman philosophy of Nietzsche, I found in the nonviolent resistance philosophy of Gandhi."

               -Martin Luther King, Jr.      (as interpreted by Clayborne Carson)

MLK was jailed 30 times, almost died of a stab wound to the chest, and had bombs placed at his home, church and friends homes. He remained an advocate of nonviolent confrontation. In my humble opinion, I think he might have been on to something.

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## torchbearer

> MLK was jailed 30 times, almost died of a stab wound to the chest, and had bombs placed at his home, church and friends homes. He remained an advocate of nonviolent confrontation. In my humble opinion, I think he might have been on to something.


George Washington led people to slaughter 50,000 Brits.
I think he had the right idea. 

The colonies taking it in the ass from the king didn't do to much.

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## ForLiberty-RonPaul

> George Washington led people to slaughter 50,000 Brits.
> I think he had the right idea. 
> 
> The colonies taking it in the ass from the king didn't do to much.


Are you kidding me? How about compiling a list of all the nonviolent actions taken by the colonist to defy the king _before_ they were forced into war. And we almost lost that war! We were incredibly lucky to have George Washington. If you really believe that killing and slaughter are the right tools for the job then you are on the wrong side of this fight my friend.

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## Bill M DC

> George Washington led people to slaughter 50,000 Brits.
> I think he had the right idea. 
> 
> The colonies taking it in the ass from the king didn't do to much.


I remain to this day a proponent of peaceful non-violent action. I am proud of the stead fastness our vets showed at Hempstead while being bullied and injured by fellow public servants. The stark contrast between their conduct and the conduct of those less informed - less evolved, is a testament to the power of love. Love of peace, country, countrymen and a compassion for those lacking, as we once were, in the moral direction and fortitude to take a stand against treading upon the liberties of others that we ascribed to ourselves.

An honorable Peace is and always was my first wish! I can take no delight in the effusion of human Blood; but, if this War should continue, I wish to have the most active part in it.
John Paul Jones, letter to Gouverneur Morris, Sept 2, 1782

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## torchbearer

> Are you kidding me? How about compiling a list of all the nonviolent actions taken by the colonist to defy the king _before_ they were forced into war. And we almost lost that war! We were incredibly lucky to have George Washington. If you really believe that killing and slaughter are the right tools for the job then you are on the wrong side of this fight my friend.


A pacifist has no rights. He is a victim of every aggressor.
You only have the rights you are willing to fight and die for... all others will be consumed by the mobs.

The people in power want you to continue getting crushed by their horses. 
You are welcomed to it.

I will fight back...

"Give my liberty or give me death"
Most people today would rather live as subjects, than live as free men because they aren't willing to do what is required to remain free. The government is but a reflection of the virtues of its people.

If I was the $#@! dictator of this country, i'd want all my opposition to observe peaceful resisitance, because no tyrant was ever removed, except by force.

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## Sandra

Torchbearer, you MUST realize that your posts are actually harming our movement at this point. It sounds like you're advocating violence as if there is no alternative.

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## torchbearer

> Torchbearer, you MUST realize that your posts are actually harming our movement at this point. It sounds like you're advocating violence as if there is no alternative.


Did I tell you to grab a gun and kill someone?
I'm talking philosophy.
When the government comes to your door step to take what's left of your dignity, what will you do?
I'm not saying, "Hey let's form a militia and kill people".

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## Bill M DC

> Did I tell you to grab a gun and kill someone?
> I'm talking philosophy.
> When the government comes to your door step to take what's left of your dignity, what will you do?
> I'm not saying, "Hey let's form a militia and kill people".


From another thread: 


> I always thought this was the best way to go. Let the party implode, crash and burn if you will. Lose in 2008 and 2010 and lose BIG. This they will learn and will learn much more quickly that they need to heed the freedom message. I for one find this refreshing and actually relish the opportunities this will afford us in the future. We know we have the right message, we just need the right time for others to listen and that time is coming as the GOP implodes, looks around and wonders what the hell happened?
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/200...politico/14986





> that's the plan.
> how can they ever expect to win a national election without the help of grassroots.



You see Torch bearer. My writings on this subject are laced with subtleties of what I am willing to go to in order to preserve my freedoms. I have always been from the beginning, as were our founders, the "reluctant warrior". The Boston Tea Party was an escalation from peaceful non-violent action to aggressive civil disobedience and monetary loss through vandalism to the trading companies driving the machine of imperial conquest. Those "Indians" knew what the back lash of their actions would be. Always, the tactical advantage is that our enemy must always appear to the public as the aggressor and you the unfortunate victim of unwarranted aggression. It is then that public opinion shifts to pity of the "under dog" and finally to outrage. Going off half cocked with a pittance of support would either get you killed or incarcerated.

By holding my tongue, putting away from me violent and inflammatory language I hope to bide my time, remain "free" from confinement and lull my enemies into a state of complacency while I build around me a mass so voluminous that the "peace keepers" lay down their weapons and flee in terror.

Would be a waste to go out and buy bullets and guns to only be gunned down in a "blaze of glory" in your living room and be reported by the MSM as "a lone crazed gun man killed by police when he fired, unprovoked, upon officers in the execution of their duties."

In the end you lose, heck we all lose if just one of our numbers is taken in vain.

I myself will live, for now, to fight another day by any means necessary even if it be, God forbid, by watering "The Tree". Let the grass roots run it's course. It hasn't had time to fully come into it's own and realize it's full potential. When we rush to violence and blood shed we are then no better than those who have already done the same.

Peace

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## torchbearer

I agree with what you are saying.

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