# Lifestyles & Discussion > Science & Technology >  Toyota's new Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car will be able to power a house

## Peace Piper

*Toyota's new Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car will be able to power a house*




...The automaker chose the big tech gathering to display the four-seater, which looks like a futuristic Prius, to highlight its advanced engineering. *A fully-fueled vehicle will be able to supply enough energy to power a house for a week in an emergency, Toyota said. Its engineers are working on an adapter that will connect the car into a homes electrical grid.*

After debuting the concept car at the Tokyo Motor Show in November, Toyota plans to start selling the car in the United States next year. While it has yet to disclose pricing, the company said it has slashed the cost of bringing the car to market by tapping an electric powertrain it already uses on one of its hybrid vehicles and other common parts.

Fuel cell electric vehicles will be in our future sooner than many people believe, and in much greater numbers than anyone expected, said Bob Carter, senior vice president of automotive operations for Toyotas U.S. sales arm.

Toyota is one of three companies pushing forward with fuel cell vehicle cars. Hyundai will start offering one later this year and Honda plans one next year....

...Using hydrogen to create electricity, fuel cells combine the best of electric and gasoline cars without the downsides, the automakers say. They drive like electric cars -- quietly, with tons of off-the-line power -- but can be refueled just like gasoline-powered cars.

We are real excited about this technology, said Ed LaRocque, Toyotas national brand manager for fuel cell vehicles. "We think it is game-changing."...Snip more:

http://www.latimes.com/business/auto...#ixzz2pjQ6pJWg 
*Is it dangerous to store hydrogen in a tank attached to a vehicle?
*
Fuel cell cars from Toyota, Honda, Hyundai set to debut at auto shows

...*"Hydrogen is quite a dangerous gas," said Tesla's Elon Musk,* who also runs SpaceX, the rocket company formally known as Space Exploration Technologies Corp. "It's suitable for the upper stage of rockets, but not for cars."

*Not true*, says Matt McClory, one of the principal engineers of the Toyota fuel cell vehicle. And he has a bullet to prove it. *In safety tests, Toyota's engineers shot rifle bullets at its high-pressure hydrogen tanks to see if they would explode or catch fire.*

"The smaller-caliber bullets would just bounce off the tank," McClory said. "It took a 50-caliber armor-piercing bullet to penetrate the tank, and it then just left a hole and the gas leaked out."



*Hyundai has set its entire car ablaze without triggering an explosion*. When the temperatures rise high enough, the hydrogen vents in a flair pattern through a pressure valve but burns off quickly...
more
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/nov...-cars-20131117******************



Hydrogen powered vehicle on the left. 
Gasoline powered vehicle on the right
Photo 4 - Time: 1 min, 30 sec - Hydrogen flow almost finished.

From Fuel Leak Simulation
Dr. Michael R. Swain University of Miami
(PDF) https://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydroge...fs/30535be.pdf

Top Gear's James May: This is the future of Auto tech


http://www.topgear.com/uk/videos/honda-clarity

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## tod evans

Interesting.......

Both the technology and the fact that foreign manufacturers are bringing these to market.

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## DGambler

Very excited for this, it's the only "alternative" fuel that has made sense to me.  Of course, the government will probably label them as dangerous and keep them from being sold here.

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## FloralScent

How much you wanna bet they've been sitting on this technology for some time and are only now allowing it to come to market to cut Putin's throat.

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## Peace Piper

> Very excited for this, it's the only "alternative" fuel that has made sense to me.  Of course, the government will probably label them as dangerous and keep them from being sold here.


One thing about Hydrogen: Anyone that wants to can make it in their garage




The next few years can change the entire energy game. Let's face it- if the US really wanted to be energy independent it could have been. But that would damage the petrodollar. Neither R or D has done a damn thing about energy since the last oil price shock. It's about time somebody or some company did.


Edit to add a picture of Honda's Home Hydrogen station:



The solar-powered hydrogen car

While both electric and fuel-cell cars still rely on fossil fuels to generate their sources of power, both types of technology could also spur renewable energy production. Tesla’s battery packs already are being used to store electricity from rooftop solar panel arrays and its gigafactory would produce gigawatts of energy storage that could upend the utility industry...

...At Honda’s R&D campus, I drive the Clarity up to a gate that opens to reveal a prototype of a* solar-powered hydrogen fueling station for the home (see picture above)*. The electrolyzer is powered by a 5-kilowatt photovoltaic panel array and can produce 30 miles’ worth of hydrogen overnight in your garage, from water. (Honda is still working to bring down the cost of home-brew hydrogen.) The gas can also be used to power residential fuel cells like those being developed by power giant NRG Energy.

more: 
http://qz.com/186432/why-hydrogen-po...on-musk-crazy/

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## torchbearer

> Very excited for this, it's the only "alternative" fuel that has made sense to me.  Of course, the government will probably label them as dangerous and keep them from being sold here.



Right now, they are getting the hydrogen byproducts from crude.
So, it relies on the same source as petro.

I was thinking that if you could hook your solar farm into water electrolysis... you may find a better way to harvest hydrogen.

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## FindLiberty

Nice, but it’s *not an energy source!*  It's not even magical, _like Flubber_.

The efficiency of each step in the entire system must be evaluated...

I hope it proves to be better than the existing system (extract crude oil from
the ground, refine it into gasoline, fill up the fuel tank, start up the engine
and drive the car away). 

Eventually we will run out of countries to invade,  economically viable oil
 to extract and breathable air. Nuclear power to hydrogen should be
sustainable ('till meltdown or waste   produced by the nuke power plants
 wipes out too many neighbors).

Hydrogen looks like a "clean" way to run the car engine. How it's produced
 is the bigger unanswered question. _Is it efficient enough?_

For now, it simply comes down to dollars. Even evaluating efficiency gets
mucked up by government subsidies where true cost and efficiency is obscured.




> The electrolyzer is powered by a 5-kilowatt photovoltaic panel array and can produce 30 miles’ worth of hydrogen overnight in your garage, from water.


If there's a way to "crack" water using only home solar power panels, that's
 fantastic!  It's unlikely those solar panels will "charg 'er up overnight, lol.

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## klamath

> One thing about Hydrogen: Anyone that wants to can make it in their garage
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The next few years can change the entire energy game. Let's face it- if the US really wanted to be energy independent it could have been. But that would damage the petrodollar. Neither R or D has done a damn thing about energy since the last oil price shock. It's about time somebody or some company did.
> 
> 
> Edit to add a picture of Honda's Home Hydrogen station:
> ...





> The electrolyzer is powered by a 5-kilowatt photovoltaic panel array and can produce 30 miles’ worth of hydrogen *overnight* in your garage, from water


 Didn't this line make you wonder?  How much power does photovoltaic panels produce at NIGHT?

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## acptulsa

> Nice, but it’s *not an energy source!*


Well, yes it is, but yet it isn't.  In a sense, since hydrogen is very hard to find in that form, hydrogen power is a way to convert electricity into a portable, burnable fuel.  You use electricity to separate water, then recombine the water with the oxygen by burning the stuff.  And you get the energy back (minus losses due to inefficiency).

This is a big advantage, or was a big advantage, as batteries are heavy as hell.  But there are two 'buts' involved in that.  One is that batteries are improving.  They're getting a bit lighter and they're lasting a bit longer.

The other is that despite the obvious disadvantages of batteries, they have one huge advantage--they can store braking energy and reuse it to reaccelerate the vehicle.  That's huge.

Yeah, we could have gone over to this in the 1970s.  We didn't mainly because of scare tactics over the danger of carrying around pressure bottles full of the stuff--as if gasoline isn't volatile enough to be similarly dangerous, and as if there weren't vehicles running around on pressure bottles full of propane all the time.

The oil companies have a little political clout, and have had for a long time...

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## klamath

> Well, yes it is, but yet it isn't.  In a sense, since hydrogen is very hard to find in that form, hydrogen power is a way to convert electricity into a portable, burnable fuel.  You use electricity to separate water, then recombine the water with the oxygen by burning the stuff.  And you get the energy back (minus losses due to inefficiency).
> 
> This is a big advantage, or was a big advantage, as batteries are heavy as hell.  But there are two 'buts' involved in that.  One is that batteries are improving.  They're getting a bit lighter and they're lasting a bit longer.
> 
> The other is that despite the obvious disadvantages of batteries, they have one huge advantage--they can store braking energy and reuse it to reaccelerate the vehicle.  That's huge.
> 
> Yeah, we could have gone over to this in the 1970s.  We didn't mainly because of scare tactics over the danger of carrying around pressure bottles full of the stuff--as if gasoline isn't volatile enough to be similarly dangerous, and as if there weren't vehicles running around on pressure bottles full of propane all the time.
> 
> The oil companies have a little political clout, and have had for a long time...


 I watch all these technologies with great interest. I get frustrated with over hype and disinfo put out by opposing industries. I just bought a 34 KWH lithium Ion battery for power storage on my Hydro plant and wading through the scare stories on lithium batteries put out by lead acid manufacturers was not fun.

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## libertyjam

Was this mentioned here? Scale this Super-Cap up to car sized and it could be another area of revolution car and transport tech. 

http://phys.org/news/2013-05-high-sc...tor-young.html

 					(Phys.org) —Saratoga California high school student Eesha Khare is a  co-winner of this year's Young Scientist Award sponsored by Intel. She  won the award for her battery-sized supercapacitor design which allows  for recharging in just a few seconds. The award was part of Intel's  International Science and Engineering Fair. 				    

   					 				    Khare's supercapacitor is meant to serve as a replacement for  a small battery, specifically those used in cell phones. She says the  inspiration for her design came out of frustration from constantly  finding her cell phone battery dead. The supercapacitor she developed is  small enough to fit inside a standard cell phone battery housing, and  can be fully charged in just 20 to 30 seconds. As if that weren't  enough, it also has a much longer useful life offering 10,000  charge/recharge cycles instead of the 1,000 available now for batteries.  The supercapacitor is based on nanochemistry, which Khare told the  crowd during her acceptance speech is her main area of scientific  interest.

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## Uriah

> Was this mentioned here? Scale this Super-Cap up to car sized and it could be another area of revolution car and transport tech. 
> 
> http://phys.org/news/2013-05-high-sc...tor-young.html
> 
>  					(Phys.org) —Saratoga California high school student Eesha Khare is a  co-winner of this year's Young Scientist Award sponsored by Intel. She  won the award for her battery-sized supercapacitor design which allows  for recharging in just a few seconds. The award was part of Intel's  International Science and Engineering Fair. 				    
> 
>    					 				    Khare's supercapacitor is meant to serve as a replacement for  a small battery, specifically those used in cell phones. She says the  inspiration for her design came out of frustration from constantly  finding her cell phone battery dead. The supercapacitor she developed is  small enough to fit inside a standard cell phone battery housing, and  can be fully charged in just 20 to 30 seconds. As if that weren't  enough, it also has a much longer useful life offering 10,000  charge/recharge cycles instead of the 1,000 available now for batteries.  The supercapacitor is based on nanochemistry, which Khare told the  crowd during her acceptance speech is her main area of scientific  interest.



I've seen this. Really cool stuff. Iceland is transitioning to hydrogen fuel. I think it's the way to go.

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## pcosmar

> Interesting.......
> 
> Both the technology and the fact that foreign manufacturers are bringing these to market.


$#@!,, I have wanted to see it since the 70s..

I will love to see fuel stations (which I don't yet). My wife loves Toyotas. And I have had good experiences with them.

Damn shame Detroit couldn't do it 20 years ago.

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## pcosmar

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...-under-assault

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## Working Poor

> How much you wanna bet they've been sitting on this technology for some time and are only now allowing it to come to market to cut Putin's throat.


Why do you think Toyota has been having so much trouble with their cars in the past several years? I think it is because of industrial espionage and sabotage.

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## Peace Piper

> Nice, but its *not an energy source!*  It's not even magical, _like Flubber_.
> 
>  If there's a way to "crack" water using only home solar power panels, that's
>  fantastic!  It's unlikely those solar panels will "charg 'er up overnight, lol.


*Inside the Solar-Hydrogen House: No More Power Bills--Ever* 

 A *New Jersey* resident generates and stores all the power he needs with solar panels and hydrogen 
 Jun 19, 2008 Scientific American.com

 EAST AMWELL, N.J.Mike Strizki has not paid an electric, oil or gas billnor has he spent a nickel to fill up his Mercury Sablein nearly two years. Instead, the 51-year-old civil engineer makes all the fuel he needs using a system he built in the capacious garage of his home, which employs photovoltaic (PV) panels to turn sunlight into electricity that is harnessed in turn to extract hydrogen from tap water...

...The Strizki's personalized home-energy system consists of 56 solar panels on his garage roof, and housed inside is a small electrolyzer (a device, about the size of a washing machine, that uses electricity to break down water into its component hydrogen and oxygen). There are 100 batteries for nighttime power needs along the garage's inside wall; just outside are ten propane tanks (leftovers from the 1970s that are capable of storing 19,000 cubic feet, or 538 cubic meters, of hydrogen) as well as a Plug Power fuel cell stack (an electrochemical device that mixes hydrogen and oxygen to produce electricity and water) and a hydrogen refueling kit for the car.

 On a typical summer day, the solar panels drink in and convert sunlight to about 90 kilowatt-hours of electricity, according to Strizki. He consumes about 10 kilowatt-hours daily to run the family's appliances, including a 50-inch plasma television, along with his three computers and stereo equipment, among other modern conveniences....more

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ydrogen-house/ 


POWER PLANT:  Computers, inverters and other controls help Strizki harvest 
as much as 90 kilowatt-hours of electricity on a sunny June day. 


2013 update with specifics re: dollars




A walkthrough from someone that knows what they're talking about

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## Peace Piper

> Right now, they are getting the hydrogen byproducts from crude.
> So, it relies on the same source as petro.
> 
> I was thinking that if you could hook your solar farm into water electrolysis... you may find a better way to harvest hydrogen.


*This New Hyundai Car Runs On The Poop Of California Residents, And The Fuel Is Free*



With *hydrogen supplied by Orange County's sewage treatment plant* and paid for by the car manufacturer, a new fuel cell vehicle is actually hitting the market in Los Angeles.

A new car from Hyundai runs on a fuel that has a truly endless supply: human poop.

Hydrogen created from sewage at a waste treatment plant in Orange County, California, will power fuel cells in the Hyundai Tuscon, available for leasing later this spring in a limited area around Los Angeles.

Right now, there are only about 10 hydrogen fuel pumps in the entire state, and most are supplied with hydrogen thats made from natural gas. But the Orange County Sanitation District is testing out new technology that can make hydrogen cheaply by processing solid waste and feeding it to microbes that turn it into methane. The fuel will be pumped to local stations, making it possible for Hyundai to put its car on the streets....
http://www.fastcoexist.com/3027144/t...e-fuel-is-free
One thing is still abundant in the former "Land of the Free, Home of the Brave" and that is crap.

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## Peace Piper

> Didn't this line make you wonder?  How much power does photovoltaic panels produce at NIGHT?


Yeah you might be on to something. Honda's engineers probably haven't thought about this.

You should contact them immediately before they waste any more time on a folly.

Holy Crap the internet is depressing sometimes.

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## dannno

> *This New Hyundai Car Runs On The Poop Of California Residents, And The Fuel Is Free*
> 
> 
> 
> With *hydrogen supplied by Orange County's sewage treatment plant* and paid for by the car manufacturer, a new fuel cell vehicle is actually hitting the market in Los Angeles.
> 
> A new car from Hyundai runs on a fuel that has a truly endless supply: human poop.
> 
> Hydrogen created from sewage at a waste treatment plant in Orange County, California, will power fuel cells in the Hyundai Tuscon, available for leasing later this spring in a limited area around Los Angeles.
> ...


Methane = Hydrogen?? 

I'm missing a step...

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## Peace Piper

> Methane = Hydrogen?? 
> 
> I'm missing a step...


a few steps...

*A poo-powered car? Scientists at UC Irvine are turning sewage into hydrogen*
 By Peter Braun  Digitaltrends.com  February 21, 2014

...So what the heck are we talking about? Well, scientists at University of California Irvine have developed a system for turning sewage into pure hydrogen gas. And the timing couldnt be better, as Hyundai is set to release its fuel-cell-powered Tucson in California in the next month. In fact, this miracle is taking place just a hop skip and a jump down the road from Hyundais United States headquarters in Fountain Valley.

How does poo power work? Well, the basics of it go a little like this: take all of the horrible unmentionable things that people flush down their toilets every day, filter out the iPhones, syringes, socks, lost wedding rings, and most of the water. Then put the rest of the horrid brew into an airless tank, which is appetizingly called a digester.

In the digester the biosolids are devoured by microbes which release methane and carbon dioxide. Most of the methane is burned to operate the plant. However, some of it is piped off into a tri-generation fuel-cell.

This fuel-cell is where the stinky magic happens. The complete details of the tri-generation fuel-cell havent been revealed, but the end result is that methane is converted into heat, electricity and hydrogen, as well as, presumably, carbon...
http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/po...drogen/#!ERvL4


****************************

The OP Article from the LA TIMES that is 3 and 1/2 months old  made #1 in Reddit Technology today. 
(~5 million subscribers, at least 1-2000 people browsing at any given time.)

Lots of people haven't begun to realise how big this Hydrogen thing is yet.
It's the future. Here now.

The US can be energy independent without nukes, Arab oil or fracking.
What nonsense fracking is when you can make Hydrogen with solar energy.



^^ That can make a lot of Hydrogen.

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## pcosmar

> ^^ That can make a lot of Hydrogen.


So can this,,



All you have to do is harness it. 

I am glad to see Hydrogen finally be taken seriously.
whether fuel cells or by combustion,, it has a lot of potential.

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## steph3n

Fuel cells are still a myth.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Nice, but it’s *not an energy source!*  It's not even magical, _like Flubber_.
> 
> The efficiency of each step in the entire system must be evaluated...
> 
> I hope it proves to be better than the existing system (extract crude oil from
> the ground, refine it into gasoline, fill up the fuel tank, start up the engine
> and drive the car away). 
> 
> Eventually we will run out of countries to invade,  economically viable oil
> ...


Neither of these three vehicles have batteries, so they do not take a charge at all.  Only compressed Hydrogen.  This home solar plant maked 30 miles worth of hydrogen per day.  So you need about 10 days of processing to make a full tank of hydrogen for 300 miles of travel.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Fuel cells are still a myth.


My roommate runs around with a myth in the back of his daily driver holding fuel to be pumped out to his motor, a 1986 RWD Toyota Corolla...

ETA - in fact, this is the precise model of fuel cell he is using:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/su...FeMSOgod0nwAIA

Apparently Summit Racing makes a lot of money selling myths, and quite a few racers actually win their races with  myth as their gas tank.

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## GunnyFreedom

> $#@!,, I have wanted to see it since the 70s..
> 
> I will love to see fuel stations (which I don't yet). My wife loves Toyotas. And I have had good experiences with them.
> 
> Damn shame Detroit couldn't do it 20 years ago.


I've always been a big Honda fan, although this thing Toyota has to 'run your house' for a few hours in the event of a power failure is kinda cool.  If yhe price-point is good enough, I'd consider making one of these my work truck, though i might have to lean towards the Hyundai since they are the ones making a "truckish" model, and I have to carry a 12' ladder.

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