# News & Current Events > World News & Affairs >  American / Israeli Dual Citizens in the American Government

## gutteck

*Attorney General* - Michael Mukasey



*Head of Homeland Security* - Michael Chertoff


*Chairman Pentagons Defense Policy Board* - Richard Perle


*Deputy Defense Secretary* (Former) - Paul Wolfowitz


*Under Secretary of Defense* - Douglas Feith


*National Security Council Advisor* - Elliott Abrams


*Vice President Dick Cheneys Chief of Staff* (Former) - Scooter Libby




*White House Deputy Chief of Staff* - Joshua Bolten


*Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs* - Marc Grossman


*Director of Policy Planning at the State Department* - Richard Haass


*U.S. Trade Representative* (Cabinet-level Position) - Robert Zoellick


*Pentagons Defense Policy Board* - James Schlesinger


*UN Representative* (Former) - John Bolton


*Under Secretary for Arms Control* - David Wurmser


*Pentagons Defense Policy Board* - Eliot Cohen


*Senior Advisor to the President* - Steve Goldsmith


*Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary* - Christopher Gersten


*Assistant Secretary of State* - Lincoln Bloomfield


*Deputy Assistant to the President* - Jay Lefkowitz


*White House Political Director* - Ken Melman


*National Security Study Group* - Edward Luttwak


*Pentagons Defense Policy Board* - Kenneth Adelman


*Defense Intelligence Agency Analyst* (Former) - Lawrence (Larry) Franklin


*National Security Council Advisor* - Robert Satloff


*President Export-Import Bank U.S.* - Mel Sembler


*Deputy Assistant Secretary, Administration for Children and Families* - Christopher Gersten


*Assistant Secretary of Housing and Urban Development for Public Affairs*
- Mark Weinberger


*White House Speechwriter* - David Frum


*White House Spokesman* (Former) - Ari Fleischer


*Pentagons Defense Policy Board* - Henry Kissinger


*Deputy Secretary of Commerce* - Samuel Bodman


*Under Secretary of State for Management* - Bonnie Cohen


*Director of Foreign Service Institute* - Ruth Davis




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(Note) Only 10 images are allowed per post.

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## Alex Libman

Are their picture sizes proportional to their loyalty to Israel?

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## pacelli

Ok gutteck, now that you've laid out the evidence, what do you propose the freedom movement does about it, if anything?

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## gutteck

> Ok gutteck, now that you've laid out the evidence, what do you propose the freedom movement does about it, if anything?


Fasten your sit belts hold tight and take care of your family because whats coming is not pretty.

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## Alex Libman

Government is evil no matter who's in charge of it.

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## HOLLYWOOD

> Government is evil no matter who's in charge of it.


Yes Indeed!

I presume this LINK is where the originating poster found his information:

*http://www.viewzone.com/dualcitizen.html*

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## tonesforjonesbones

Yep.  What we do is demand they be fired, give up the dual thing or just deport them..they have all been caught passing USA intelligence to the Israeli government.  FIRE THEM NOW!  tones

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## DAFTEK

I have always said we live in JSA..... This should be illegal, no dual citizen should be allowed to serve in our government, can we think of other nationals in our government besides israelis as a majority?

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## tonesforjonesbones

I agree with the above post.  tones

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## Zulf

Jesus, Richard Perle looks as evil and sinister as he actually is.

This website has alot of information about this subject.

http://www.rys2sense.com/anti-neocons/

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## Mach

Fox news..... Israeli Spies......

http://100777.com/node/180

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## tonesforjonesbones

Well..it seems now the neo cons have put more war propaganda out in the news,  lying again about saddam having yellow cake and wmd's..they mysteriously "found" them ...they had to do damage control to rile up the American people to bomb Iran for their fake WMD's.  Pathetic.  TONES

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## Truth Warrior

I never have really understood that whole "dual citizenship" BS. What is the "official" bogus rationale and justification for it? 

$#@! or get off the pot.<IMHO>

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## tonesforjonesbones

Well..these folks want to be duel citizens with Israel and USA even though they weren't even born in Israel.  For some reason, the naturalization laws don't apply to people who are duel citizens with Israel.  For example, if you are a duel citizen with Mexico and you vote in Mexico it negates your USA citizenship...not so with those who are duel citizens with Israel.  Supreme court ruled they get a pass which I consider bull carp.  TONES

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## LittleLightShining

Is this list absolutely, verifiably accurate?

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## Truth Warrior

> Well..these folks want to be duel citizens with Israel and USA even though they weren't even born in Israel. For some reason, the naturalization laws don't apply to people who are duel citizens with Israel. For example, if you are a duel citizen with Mexico and you vote in Mexico it negates your USA citizenship...not so with those who are duel citizens with Israel. Supreme court ruled they get a pass which I consider bull carp. TONES


Thanks for the info. 

Jeeze! Well that's even crappier than I assumed.  Kinda like the Dems *SUPER DELEGATES*. 

"All animals are equal. Some animals are *MORE* equal than others." -- George Orwell

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## tonesforjonesbones

Yes of course this list is accurate.  These people are the neo cons.  Please research Neoconservativism.  You can find it almost everywhere on the internet.  It's Straussian/trotskyite philosophy.  Most of the people who follow this philosophy are jewish, they are descendents of the bolsheviks who migrated here after ww1 and ww2.  Irving Kristol is the godfather of neoconservativsm...he was a student of Leo Strauss a former trotskyite who migrated from Germany and taught at the University of Chicago (political science) and Paul Dundes Wolfowitz also got his PHd under Strauss.  They managed to take over the GOP and through threats to ruining Bush, got all this mess passed as new foreign policy.  It is very machiavellian in nature.  It stinks and we need to get rid of the culprets from washington and watch out that they don't infiltrate Obama's administration although AIPAC is very powerful and has been known to ruin political careers if the politicians are not in lock step with Israel's agenda.  This may not be what you want to hear,  but truth rarely is.  TONES

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## tonesforjonesbones

Ron Paul even addresses it on the house floor and there is a youtube video of him calling out these VERY PEOPLE and their agenda.  Pat Buchanan has a book about it called "Where the Right Went Wrong".  Why do you think Ron Paul was labled a Stormfront guy?  Not really because of the 500 dollar donation, but because he speaks truth to power.  So does Buchanan and 99% of  the jewish people would rather vote for Yassiar Arafat than either of those two.  Truth.  TONES

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## Kraig

So can everyone drop the bull$#@! racist accusations when we talk about Zionism from now on?

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## LittleLightShining

> Yes of course this list is accurate.  These people are the neo cons.  Please research Neoconservativism.  You can find it almost everywhere on the internet.  It's Straussian/trotskyite philosophy.  Most of the people who follow this philosophy are jewish, they are descendents of the bolsheviks who migrated here after ww1 and ww2.  Irving Kristol is the godfather of neoconservativsm...he was a student of Leo Strauss a former trotskyite who migrated from Germany and taught at the University of Chicago (political science) and Paul Dundes Wolfowitz also got his PHd under Strauss.  They managed to take over the GOP and through threats to ruining Bush, got all this mess passed as new foreign policy.  It is very machiavellian in nature.  It stinks and we need to get rid of the culprets from washington and watch out that they don't infiltrate Obama's administration although AIPAC is very powerful and has been known to ruin political careers if the politicians are not in lock step with Israel's agenda.  This may not be what you want to hear,  but truth rarely is.  TONES


Yes, I understand all of this. I was specifically asking if the dual-citizenship information was accurate and verifiable. I'm not interested in this so much because these guys are Jews or neo-cons or whatever. People have agendas and philosophies. What bothers me is that these people have no real allegiance to the US and this reeks of treason to me. We will get no where arguing the emotional issues or conspiracy theories. Dual-citizenship is a battle that could be won in the hearts and minds of the people.

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## Kraig

> Yes, I understand all of this. I was specifically asking if the dual-citizenship information was accurate and verifiable. I'm not interested in this so much because these guys are Jews or neo-cons or whatever. People have agendas and philosophies. What bothers me is that these people have no real allegiance to the US and this reeks of treason to me. We will get no where arguing the emotional issues or conspiracy theories. Dual-citizenship is a battle that could be won in the hearts and minds of the people.


No the real issue is that we have people all over the government working for their own special interests and the american people have no idea who they are, what their real motives are, and who is really benefitting.  It is a problem of education, representive government is worthless when the people cannot make educated decisions about their leaders.  There is a massive disinformation campaign working for the Zionists and they aren't going to roll over and stop lying if we decide to get rid of our dual citizen servant government.  Dumb it down to an issue of simply "no more dual citizens in government" and the they will drop their Israeli citizenship but keep their Israeli policy.  People need to hear the full truth, we have to become the media.

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## gutteck

> No the real issue is that we have people all over the government working for their own special interests and the american people have no idea who they are, what their real motives are, and who is really benefitting.  It is a problem of education, representive government is worthless when the people cannot make educated decisions about their leaders.  There is a massive disinformation campaign working for the Zionists and they aren't going to roll over and stop lying if we decide to get rid of our dual citizen servant government.  Dumb it down to an issue of simply "no more dual citizens in government" and the they will drop their Israeli citizenship but keep their Israeli policy.  People need to hear the full truth, we have to become the media.

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## T-K

So much for Gods chosen people

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## tonesforjonesbones

So, what is racist about it?  It's a religion not a race.  like christianity..religion, not a race. tones

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## LittleLightShining

> No the real issue is that we have people all over the government working for their own special interests and the american people have no idea who they are, what their real motives are, and who is really benefitting.  It is a problem of education, representive government is worthless when the people cannot make educated decisions about their leaders.  There is a massive disinformation campaign working for the Zionists and they aren't going to roll over and stop lying if we decide to get rid of our dual citizen servant government.  Dumb it down to an issue of simply "no more dual citizens in government" and the they will drop their Israeli citizenship but keep their Israeli policy.  People need to hear the full truth, we have to become the media.


I don't think getting rid of dual citizenship in government is dumbing down anything. It's waking people up to the fact that there are people in our government that don't have America's best interests as inspiration for becoming "public servants". It's not just Jews. Look at Juan Hernandez. This Mexico-first activist holds a position of authority in Mexico as well as being McCain's Hispanic Outreach guy. You think he won't end up with a cushy job if his man gets in?  And do you think his position will change? NO WAY. 

Small steps are ok. It has to start somewhere. Wake people up to the fact that our policy is not just affected by special-interest lobbying groups-- people who hold positions in which they MAKE policy are citizens of other countries! THIS is how the neo-con Zionists can be exposed.

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## Truth Warrior

http://jewsagainstzionism.com/

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## Kraig

> So, what is racist about it?  It's a religion not a race.  like christianity..religion, not a race. tones


Zionism is not a religion.  Judaism is.  See the above link and maybe poke around google to find dozens of others like it.

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## Kraig

> I don't think getting rid of dual citizenship in government is dumbing down anything. It's waking people up to the fact that there are people in our government that don't have America's best interests as inspiration for becoming "public servants". It's not just Jews. Look at Juan Hernandez. This Mexico-first activist holds a position of authority in Mexico as well as being McCain's Hispanic Outreach guy. You think he won't end up with a cushy job if his man gets in?  And do you think his position will change? NO WAY. 
> 
> Small steps are ok. It has to start somewhere. Wake people up to the fact that our policy is not just affected by special-interest lobbying groups-- people who hold positions in which they MAKE policy are citizens of other countries! THIS is how the neo-con Zionists can be exposed.


Getting rid of dual citizens is fine but that isn't the root of the problem is all that I'm saying.

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## tonesforjonesbones

Nobody said zionism is a religion..that is a political agenda.  I said Judaesm is a religion not a race because someone was whining about "racist" remarks.  TONES

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## AmericaFyeah92

sources please?

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## tonesforjonesbones

sources for what?  scroll back lol.  geeeeez.  tones

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## Benny45

A new low for these message boards. 

This is basically a list of jewish americans that have positions in the government.  I'm not even sure all of these people have dual citizenship, or are just jewish (not that it would matter to most of the people on this forum).  Some of these people have been granted dual citizenship because they have a parent that was born in Israel.  This would automatically grant you the dual status even if the child has never once been to Israel in his entire life.  I got an idea, why dont we just require jews in our government to wear a big yellow star on their shirts so we can all be sure.

I cant believe that people that stand for the same values that Ron Paul does would contribute to this garbage.  His message has been totally hijacked by nutjobs and racists.

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## gutteck

> A new low for these message boards. 
> 
> This is basically a list of jewish americans that have positions in the government.  I'm not even sure all of these people have dual citizenship, or are just jewish (not that it would matter to most of the people on this forum).  Some of these people have been granted dual citizenship because they have a parent that was born in Israel.  This would automatically grant you the dual status even if the child has never once been to Israel in his entire life.  I got an idea, why dont we just require jews in our government to wear a big yellow star on their shirts so we can all be sure.
> 
> I cant believe that people that stand for the same values that Ron Paul does would contribute to this garbage.  His message has been totally hijacked by nutjobs and racists.



Do you have dual American/Israeli citizenship?

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## devil21

> A new low for these message boards. 
> 
> This is basically a list of jewish americans that have positions in the government.  I'm not even sure all of these people have dual citizenship, or are just jewish (not that it would matter to most of the people on this forum).  Some of these people have been granted dual citizenship because they have a parent that was born in Israel.  This would automatically grant you the dual status even if the child has never once been to Israel in his entire life.  I got an idea, why dont we just require jews in our government to wear a big yellow star on their shirts so we can all be sure.
> 
> I cant believe that people that stand for the same values that Ron Paul does would contribute to this garbage.  His message has been totally hijacked by nutjobs and racists.


As others have pointed out, what racism are you referring to?  Jews are not a race.  Israelis are not a race.  I honestly think this is a big part of the problem.  Somehow, the Jewish people have decided that their religion makes them some special "chosen" race because of the bible.  Jews are no more a race than Muslims, Buddhists, Catholics, Protestants, Wiccans, or any other.  By continually referring to Jews as a race, you imply that Jews are superior to everybody else of other religions (or no religion, in my case).

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## Mach

It's funny how most of the people that come to these forums are conservative, unless, this stuff comes up, then they use the liberal... "boo hoo hoo, don't say that, it's not fair"..... you respond in a very defensive way and use that defense as an offensive way, you act like someone is going off in some kind of racially charged way and I don't see that happening, whenever Zionism/Jew/Israel comes up you jump in the air and start in........

 Here, listen to, at least, the first 2 minutes of this, it's funny, but, make sure to take notes so you can complain and cry to the terrible people that allowed this outright offensive "racism".... oh yeah, and don't forget the baseball bats!

http://www.trilulilu.ro/morbidutz/ecf40c9e0c82ae

You did know that Ron Paul named names on the House Floor didn't you.....

It's not Ron's video, but, it is him speaking! Listen and Learn from the Master!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4df1soW7Dho

He says .....they unconditionally support Israel and have a close alliance with the Likud Party...... 

Here is, I believe, the full speech, Part 1 of 11....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aewpvcxAwTk

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## scipio337

> A new low for these message boards. 
> 
> This is basically a list of jewish americans that have positions in the government.  I'm not even sure all of these people have dual citizenship, or are just jewish (not that it would matter to most of the people on this forum).  Some of these people have been granted dual citizenship because they have a parent that was born in Israel.  This would automatically grant you the dual status even if the child has never once been to Israel in his entire life.  I got an idea, why dont we just require jews in our government to wear a big yellow star on their shirts so we can all be sure.
> 
> I cant believe that people that stand for the same values that Ron Paul does would contribute to this garbage.  His message has been totally hijacked by nutjobs and racists.


I'm amazed at how this board seems to vacillate between reading like a Chomsky polemic to a Der Stürmer weekly, all in the same thread!  

And here I thought it would be a home for Goldwater Conservatives.

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## Truth Warrior

Goldwater conservative? What's that? Just kidding!  Or am I?  Hmmmm?

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## tonesforjonesbones

Goldwater would have dispised the neo cons!!!!  tones

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## tonesforjonesbones

Benny45, this is not a religious issue it is a political agenda.  The neoconservative movement was started by Irving Kristol, a jewish fella, who studied under Leo STrauss, a jewish fella who migrated over here from Germany, and who was a former Trotskyite, a jewish fella.  These are the facts...it just so happens they were jewish.  This has a lot to do with the Bolsheviks and communism.   The Cold war was even a continuation of the fight between Stalin and Trotsky.  This is STILL carryin on because the bolsheviks are the ones who occupy Israel and now we see that Russia has sided with Iran against Israel..apparently the fight continues...

Joseph Stalin, born Dzhugashvili, and Leon Trotsky, born Bronstein, were the same age, and both had been from early youth members of the Russian Social Democratic party. As dedicated Communists, they had common basic outlook: they were philosophical materialists, committed to the unity of theory and practice and bent upon spreading Communism throughout the whole world. While Lenin was alive (at any rate until 1922) both men had a secure place in his favor and therefore in the party as a whole. Since 1917, at least, Trotsky had supported Lenin on the main issues and seemed to have more of his candor and flexibility than Stalin. However, as Lenin sickened and died, the mutual antagonism between Trotsky and Stalin, who had never been compatible, deepened into a life-and-death struggle.

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## scipio337

> Goldwater would have dispised the neo cons!!!!  tones


Goldwater was certainly in favor of interventionism in our fight against communism.  Why not fundamentalist terrorism?  

Cold War a coninuation of the Trotsky/Stalin infighting?  You're kidding, right??  I don't think I've ever read such baseless, conspiratorial navel-gazing on these boards, and that's saying quite a bit.

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## Kraig

> A new low for these message boards. 
> 
> This is basically a list of jewish americans that have positions in the government.  I'm not even sure all of these people have dual citizenship, or are just jewish (not that it would matter to most of the people on this forum).  Some of these people have been granted dual citizenship because they have a parent that was born in Israel.  This would automatically grant you the dual status even if the child has never once been to Israel in his entire life.  I got an idea, why dont we just require jews in our government to wear a big yellow star on their shirts so we can all be sure.
> 
> I cant believe that people that stand for the same values that Ron Paul does would contribute to this garbage.  His message has been totally hijacked by nutjobs and racists.


Give it up already.  We aren't nut jobs our racists.  We're sick of our economy being damaged through billions of tax dollars given to Israel with no return for us as well as our national security being damaged through a highly entangling alliance with Israel that has created nothing but enemies in the middle east yet once again no beneficial return for us.  Not to mention the billions in tax dollars that is spent on military weapons, equipment, and training for Israel that is then used to racially murder and displace an entire population known as Palestine - this is what is truly repulsive, far more than any simple minded racist bigot.  

I do not really care that much about Jews or Israel.  I do not hate Israel but I do hate their Zionist government, what it does to Palestine, what it does to our media, and what it does our government.  All I want is to stop giving them money, stop giving them military training, and to stop bombing countries at their request (Iran is next on the list).  Just leave them alone and let them take care of themselves, just like any other country.

Is that really soooo racist?

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## AmericaFyeah92

[QUOTE=scipio337;1554140]Goldwater was certainly in favor of interventionism in our fight against communism.  Why not fundamentalist terrorism?  

QUOTE]

so ur saying Goldwater would have been in lock-step with the current coterie of crazies in the White House? *wrong, wrong, wrong.* He was already speaking out against authoritarian conservatives back in his day

and the difference between the islamist terror threat of today and the Soviet commie threat of back then is that the current terror threat *is of our own making*

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## scipio337

> Give it up already.  We aren't nut jobs our racists.  We're sick of our economy being damaged through billions of tax dollars given to Israel with no return for us as well as our national security being damaged through a highly entangling alliance with Israel that has created nothing but enemies in the middle east yet once again no beneficial return for us.  Not to mention the billions in tax dollars that is spent on military weapons, equipment, and training for Israel that is then used to racially murder and displace an entire population known as Palestine - this is what is truly repulsive, far more than any simple minded racist bigot.    
> 
> I do not really care that much about Jews or Israel.  I do not hate Israel but I do hate their Zionist government, what it does to Palestine, what it does to our media, and what it does our government.  All I want is to stop giving them money, stop giving them military training, and to stop bombing countries at their request (Iran is next on the list).  Just leave them alone and let them take care of themselves, just like any other country.
> 
> Is that really soooo racist?


This certainly seems like an even-handed post.  I can assume you throw the same hissy fit for our foreign/military aid to Egypt?  Saudi Arabia?  Are you as tough on the Arab League members that still deny Palestinian Arab refugees citizenship rights?  

If not, that's a double standard, and probably a hint of racism yourself.

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## scipio337

> so ur saying Goldwater would have been in lock-step with the current coterie of crazies in the White House? *wrong, wrong, wrong.* He was already speaking out against authoritarian conservatives back in his day
> 
> and the difference between the islamist terror threat of today and the Soviet commie threat of back then is that the current terror threat *is of our own making*


He probably wouldn't be in "lock step", but he wasn't Robert Taft either.

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## AmericaFyeah92

fair enough, but at least we both agree he was an awesome guy 

and do u think the Islamist threat is equal to the Soviet threat?

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## Kraig

> This certainly seems like an even-handed post.  I can assume you throw the same hissy fit for our foreign/military aid to Egypt?  Saudi Arabia?  Are you as tough on the Arab League members that still deny Palestinian Arab refugees citizenship rights?  
> 
> If not, that's a double standard, and probably a hint of racism yourself.


Yes of course.  We need to end ALL foreign aid to other countries, be it military aid or financial aid.  Both are a complete underserved tax that weakens our economy and national security.  I focus more on Israel because they have the strongest hold: in dollar amounts, in the number of people in our government working in their favor, in that the have the largest and most powerful lobby working for them with congress.  If we were somehow able to end this I think the support and rationalization for the other countries would fall quickly behind them.  The conflict over Palestine is horrible but it is not our place to fix it, regardless of which side we would be working for.  Ultimately I just want to GTFO.  It's really not different AT ALL from Ron Paul's non-interventionist policy, but whenever you apply that policy towards Israel racists accusations fly.


...any was my comment a hissy fit or was it even handed?  Seems like a contradiction to me.

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## Benny45

> Give it up already.  We aren't nut jobs our racists.  We're sick of our economy being damaged through billions of tax dollars given to Israel with no return for us as well as our national security being damaged through a highly entangling alliance with Israel that has created nothing but enemies in the middle east yet once again no beneficial return for us.


This thread had nothing to do with aide to Israel.  The original poster listed jews that have or do hold positions in the US government as if it is a negative.

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## gutteck

> This thread had nothing to do with aide to Israel.  The original poster listed jews that have or do hold positions in the US government as if it is a negative.


For you it might me a blessing that Israeli citizens hold such important positions in our government but regular Americans would like people that devote 100% of their efforts and give 100% of loyalty exclusively to the American people. After all it is the American government they are running, and the American government must serve the American people first.

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## Kraig

> For you it might me a blessing that Israeli citizens hold such important positions in our government but regular Americans would like people that devote 100% of their efforts and give 100% of loyalty exclusively to the American people. After all it is the American government they are running, and the American government must serve the American people first.


First and only.

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## Kraig

> This thread had nothing to do with aide to Israel.  The original poster listed jews that have or do hold positions in the US government as if it is a negative.


Sometimes the best way to find the truth is to look at who is doing what and what their own self interest is.  Obviously dual citizens in the government are not the complete sum of the problem.  Many of the people on this list have done very specific things that I could point to, the neo-con movement if you will.

Who said any of these guys are Jews?  They are just citizens of Israel.  Do you have to be a Jew to be a citzen of Israel?

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## devil21

> This certainly seems like an even-handed post.  I can assume you throw the same hissy fit for our foreign/military aid to Egypt?  Saudi Arabia?  Are you as tough on the Arab League members that still deny Palestinian Arab refugees citizenship rights?  
> 
> If not, that's a double standard, and probably a hint of racism yourself.


Neither Egypt nor Saudi Arabia has dragged our entire nation into never-ending undeclared holy wars.  I'd be just fine with stopping aid to them but that's lower on the priorities list.  I haven't seen anything about AEPAC or ASAPAC, have you?

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## Benny45

> Sometimes the best way to find the truth is to look at who is doing what and what their own self interest is.  Obviously dual citizens in the government are not the complete sum of the problem.  Many of the people on this list have done very specific things that I could point to, the neo-con movement if you will.
> 
> Who said any of these guys are Jews?  They are just citizens of Israel.  Do you have to be a Jew to be a citzen of Israel?


show me proof that everbody on this list is an Israeli citizen. I know some are, but couldn't find proof of others. You do know that not all Jews are Israeli citizens, right?  Basically, this is a list of Jews. I'm going to start a list of protestant Christians. They have had a near stranglehold on the presidency. I'm thinking conspiracy here.

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## Kraig

> show me proof that everbody on this list is an Israeli citizen. I know some are, but couldn't find proof of others. You do know that not all Jews are Israeli citizens, right?  Basically, this is a list of Jews. I'm going to start a list of protestant Christians. They have had a near stranglehold on the presidency. I'm thinking conspiracy here.


You do realize I had no idea any of those people were Jews?  Yes obviously not all Jews are Israeli citizens, I don't think that could be any more obvious.  Are all black people part of some African country?  Are all oriental people part of some Asian country? Duuuuuuh.  Maybe with that fact you can realize that this is an issue of loyalty towards one country or another and has _nothing to do with race._

I was really asking though, I don't know, do you have to be a Jew to be an Israeli citizen?

Start your list, no one will care, it's irrelevant while this isn't.  I think you know it too.

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## Benny45

> You do realize I had no idea any of those people were Jews?  Yes obviously not all Jews are Israeli citizens, I don't think that could be any more obvious.  Are all black people part of some African country?  Are all oriental people part of some Asian country? Duuuuuuh.  Maybe with that fact you can realize that this is an issue of loyalty towards one country or another and has _nothing to do with race._
> 
> I was really asking though, I don't know, do you have to be a Jew to be an Israeli citizen?
> 
> Start your list, no one will care, it's irrelevant while this isn't.  I think you know it too.


First of all 20% of Israeli citizens are Israeli arabs (this should answer your question).

Second, this thread was started by an individual that listed American/Israeli dual citizens holding power in our government.  I can find no proof that all listed have in fact the dual status.  Basically, we are left with a list of jews holding positions in  the American government.  To most here that is a bad thing.

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## Kraig

> First of all 20% of Israeli citizens are Israeli arabs (this should answer your question).


My brief understanding of Jewish bloodlines is that there is one type of Jew of middle eastern descent (this would be closest to the Biblical Jews) and another type of Jew of european descent that converted to Judaism roughly around 1000 AD.  I can't even begin to pronounce them so I can't spell them either, but I'll lookup the names if you don't know what I'm talking about.  I've also understood that the european Jews largely dominate the Zionist movement so it doesn't suprise me that only 20% of the Israeli citizens are "arab Jews" as you called them.

However, I still don't know if you have to be Jew to be an Israeli, so I don't think that answered my question.

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## Benny45

> My brief understanding of Jewish bloodlines is that there is one type of Jew of middle eastern descent (this would be closest to the Biblical Jews) and another type of Jew of european descent that converted to Judaism roughly around 1000 AD.  I can't even begin to pronounce them so I can't spell them either, but I'll lookup the names if you don't know what I'm talking about.  I've also understood that the european Jews largely dominate the Zionist movement so it doesn't suprise me that only 20% of the Israeli citizens are "arab Jews" as you called them.
> 
> However, I still don't know if you have to be Jew to be an Israeli, so I don't think that answered my question.



20 percent of the Israeli population is made up of Arabs.  These are non-jews.  About 75% of the population is jewish.

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## pacelli

Question:  Compare and contrast the definitions of "Jewish" and "Zionism"?  I'm seeing both terms thrown around interchangeably in this thread, and I have seen no operational definition of either. It appears that these occasionally are used for the same construct, and occasionally used for different and diametrically opposed constructs.  Please operationally define both terms.

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## lucius

> Question:  Compare and contrast the definitions of "Jewish" and "Zionism"?  I'm seeing both terms thrown around interchangeably in this thread, and I have seen no operational definition of either. It appears that these occasionally are used for the same construct, and occasionally used for different and diametrically opposed constructs.  Please operationally define both terms.


From True Torah Jews Against Zionism: http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/whatis.cfm

*"What is Zionism?*

One of our most oft-asked questions is "what is Zionism?"

Zionism is a movement founded by Theodor Herzl in 1896 whose goal is the return of Jews to Eretz Yisrael, or Zion, the Jewish synonym for Jerusalem and the Land of Israel.

The name of "Zionism" comes from the hill Zion, the hill on which the Temple of Jerusalem was situated.

Supporters of this movement are called "Zionists".

The purpose of this website is to explain why traditional Jews do not support Zionism (the return to the land called "Israel") and why the Zionist idealogy is totally contrary to traditional Jewish law and beliefs and the teachings of the Holy Torah."

*Zionists Do Not Represent Jews:* http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/notjews.cfm

"From the inception of the Zionist State and particularly in recent times, the impression has been created in the World that there is some connection between the State, which falsely calls itself Israel, and the Jewish people as a whole. Therefore, we who continue to uphold the never-changing tradition of the Jewish people find it proper to again clarify the following points: 

*A Jew is one who remains faithful to the laws of the Jewish religion, that is, the Holy Torah and its commandments.* 

The Jewish people became a people before they had their own land, and continued to exist as a people also after they went Into exile, because our very people hood is based exclusively on the Torah. The Holy Land was given to the Jewish people on the condition that they observe the Torah and its commandments. When they failed to do this, their sovereignty over the land was taken from them, and they went into exile. From that time, we are prohibited by the Torah with a very grave prohibition to establish a Jewish independent sovereignty in the Holy Land or anywhere throughout the world. Rather, we are obligated to be loyal to the nations under whose protection we dwell. 
This situation has existed for close to 2000 years when the Jewish people were dispersed throughout all corners of the world. During this time, the Jews always remained faithful to the country in which they lived. 

The Jewish people are grateful to all those merciful nations which have allowed them to observe Torah and the commandments undisturbed.

From ancient times, the relations between the Jewish and Islamic peoples have always been those of peace and brotherhood, and friendship always reigned between them. The proof of this is the fact that for centuries, in all the Arab lands, hundreds of thousands of Jews lived in honor and amidst mutual esteem. 
Jews throughout all generations yearned to grace the sacred soil of the Holy Land and to live there. However, their sole purpose was to fulfill the commandments dependent upon the land and to absorb Its holiness. Never, G-d forbid, did they have any nationalist or sovereign intent whatsoever which, as mentioned above, is forbidden to us. Indeed, also here in the Holy Land, our fathers lived in neighborly harmony with the Palestinian residents of the land, helping one another, to mutual benefit. 

Until about two hundred years ago, the vast majority of Jews observed the Torah and the commandments in entirety. Jewry's leaders were Torah scholars, who directed the people according to the Torah. They were loyal citizens in the host nations where they dwelled and to the local laws. They prayed for the welfare of their respective governments. To our sorrow, at that time a small number of Jews slowly left their observance of Torah and commandments. Together with this, they began to deride the spiritual leadership of their people. This assimilation was the basis upon which, one hundred years ago, the ideology of Zionism was born. Its founders were assimilated Jews who had abandoned the Torah. 

Immediately at the founding of the Zionist movement, masses of Jews under the leadership of their Rabbis, launched a heavy battle against Zionism. Their attack was directed not only at the non-religious Zionist idea, but rather, primarily at its opposition to the Torah-ordained path that Jewry must follow while in exile. As such, the Zionists incited the nations of the world, demanding political sovereignty over the Holy Land while remaining oblivious to the resentment this would arouse In the Palestinian Arabs, the land's veteran inhabitants. As stated, the leaders of Orthodox Jewry vehemently opposed the movement with all force. 

The Zionists refused to heed the voice of the Rabbis and Torah authority. They persisted in their ways until they succeeded in influencing the British government to issue the Balfour Declaration concerning the "establishment of a national home for the Jews in the land of Israel." To our great sorrow, from that point on began the deterioration of the good relations between the Jews and the Arab inhabitants of the land. This occurred because the Arab people understood that the Zionists wished to seize ruler ship from them. In addition, the Arab people had suspicions as if the Jewish people wished to seize control of the Temple Mount and other similar sites. Matters worsened as a result. 

The Jewish leadership of that time saw it as proper to clarify before the Arab leaders that the Torah-true Jews had no desire whatsoever for sovereignty, and that our desire was to continue to live in peace with the Arabs, as we had always done. The leader of the G-d-fearing Jewish community at that time, Rabbi Yoseph Chaim Zonnenfeld. of blessed memory, organized a delegation in July of 24' which visited King Hussein and his sons Faisal the King of Iraq and the Amir Abdullah In order to lucidly present to them the position of the G-d-fearing Jewish community. The Jewish delegation clarified unequivocally that Torah Jewry is totally opposed to the Zionist sovereignty over the Holy Land. It Is worth noting that the delegation was received with great honor. They were even assured that all Arab lands were completely open to Jews, however, on the condition that the Jews do not demand political rights. This condition also applied to the Holy Land. One of the members of the Jewish delegation, Professor Yisroel Yaakov De Haan, paid with his life for his participation. 

Torah Jewry protests at every opportunity against the Zionist rule over the Holy Land, and the Zionist rebellion against the neighboring nations. Torah Jewry has condemned the Zionist oppression of the Palestinians, the land's veteran inhabitants who have been driven from their homes and properties. The Zionists' barbaric and violent deeds are absolutely antithetical to the essence of the Jewish people. 

Torah Jewry has never ever recognized the Zionist state. Since the Zionists succeeding in establishing their state, Torah Jewry has continuously announced to the world that the Zionists do not represent the Jewish people, and that the name "Israel" that they use is a forgery. For as has been stated above, it is forbidden to us from the Torah to rebel against the nations, and all sovereignty by us is prohibited. Rather, we await the days when all the world will recognize the sovereignty of the Creator, and the words of the prophet Isaiah will yet be fulfilled: "And they will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. No nation will lift its sword against any other, nor will they learn warfare anymore." 

Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews have refrained to this day from taking any funds from the Zionist regime, whether for their educational institutions, synagogues or other benefits. Obviously, they do not participate in the Zionist elections, whether for the "Knesset" or for the municipality. We do not serve in their army, and we even avoid speaking in the Hebrew language that the Zionists Invented. (incidentally, this is not the holy and true Hebrew language in which the Bible is written.) All this is done because Torah Jewry does not recognize the Zionist regime, which Is against the Torah and against humanity. 

Lately, the question has once again arisen concerning the Temple Mount and sovereignty over it. Thus, we wish to state unequivocally: a) In our time, it is a severe Torah prohibition for any Jew to set foot on any part of the Temple Mount area. b) The Jewish people have no claim whatsoever to sovereignty over this holy site, which is under Islamic authority, nor over any other holy site. Rabbi Zonenfeld was once asked, "is it true, that the Rabbi prefers an non-Jewish government over all of the Holy Land"? Rabbi Zonenfeld replied, "if King Hussein would rule over Palestine, the holiness of the Holy Land would not be diminished to even to an Iota degree". We yearningly await G-d's great day, when He will return His Divine Presence to Zion, restoring the holy city to its former holiness and glory as in days of old, to be a light to the peoples and the nations.

The Zionists have no right of any sovereignty over even one inch of the Holy Land. They do not represent the Jewish people in any way whatsoever. They have no right to speak in the name of the Jewish people. Therefore, their words, declarations and actions are not in any way representative of the Jewish people. This is because the Zionists' seizing of power over the Holy Land is antithetical to Jewish law, and also because the Zionists do not behave like Jews at all rather, they desecrate the sanctity of the land. 

We once again clarify that it is our desire to live in peace with our Arab and Palestinian neighbors, as we did before the Zionist revolution, and as Jews all over the world till today live, accepting the yoke of rulership of their host nation, with complete loyalty. Our sole desire is to serve our G-d and to fulfill His commandments with a perfect heart and to delight in the radiance of the sanctity of the Land."

*“By refusing to come to grips with the truth of history in particular the difference between Zionism and Judaism and why it is perfectly possible to be passionately anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic [Zionist Leaders] are helping to set up all Jews to be blamed for the crimes of the relative few.”*--Alan Hart

To use 'American Jewish Committee' founder Louis Marshall's words, *"Christian Zionists are the biggest dupes of all."* See here: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpos...8&postcount=51

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## tonesforjonesbones

That was really wonderful.  God bless these righteous Jews who are obeying .  Now, we have to work on the zionist Christians who are not obeying.  Many fundamentalist churches are on the wrong track also.  TONES

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## Mach

Here....... what he said!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqBJTBIUtM8

Why don't any of you go off on Rabbi Weiss?


It's funny how none of you had anything to say about Ron Pauls speech on the House Floor back in 2003, you totally agreed with it huh? All of you are very good at ignoring specific things, you are the ones that are very one-sided, very shallow.

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## pacelli

> From True Torah Jews Against Zionism: http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/whatis.cfm



Thanks very much for the informative details on the distinction lucius, that was very helpful to me.

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## LittleLightShining

Benjamin Freedman's speech at the Willard Hotel in 1961 talks about how the Zionists manipulated the nations during World War I in order to obtain Palestine.

The complete transcript and audio can be found here: http://www.benjaminfreedman.net/

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## AmericaFyeah92

> Neither Egypt nor Saudi Arabia has dragged our entire nation into never-ending undeclared holy wars.  I'd be just fine with stopping aid to them but that's lower on the priorities list.  I haven't seen anything about AEPAC or ASAPAC, have you?


One of the dumbest things i have ever read. Congratulations, cuz u have proven that u have no idea what ur talking about.

*Why did we enter the first gulf war?* To protect kuwait's and saudi arabia's oil reserves.
*
What was bin Laden's #1 motive for the 9/11 attacks?* Our bases in saudi arabia, and our protection of the saudi monarchy.

*Where do jihadists get most of their funding?* Wahabbis in Saudi Arabia.

But none of that fits into your "Israel is responsible for all of America's problems" theory

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## tonesforjonesbones

www.jewsagainstzionism.com

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## scipio337

Good God!  This thread is starting to read like "Der Giftpilz"








> Georg Hartmann decided to become a Nazi when he heard a Jew yell - We dont give a hoot about Germany. The main thing is that things go well for us.


I guess we can just replace "Jew" with "Zionist"??

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## HOLLYWOOD

> Jesus, Richard Perle looks as evil and sinister as he actually is.
> 
> This website has alot of information about this subject.
> 
> http://www.rys2sense.com/anti-neocons/


I don't think anybody takes the cake(and more) that "Tales of Crypt Keeper" : Michael Chertoff  There's your Sinister Dual Allegiance hypocrite Zionist.

He can stick DHS and the Patriot Act up his!

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## devil21

> One of the dumbest things i have ever read. Congratulations, cuz u have proven that u have no idea what ur talking about.
> 
> *Why did we enter the first gulf war?* To protect kuwait's and saudi arabia's oil reserves.


That "war" lasted all of a few weeks and Americans took next to no casualties in the conflict.  The count in Iraq is now well past 4000.  I can't fathom the count when/if we step into Iran.  How you could possibly compare the two conflicts is beyond me.




> *
> What was bin Laden's #1 motive for the 9/11 attacks?* Our bases in saudi arabia, and our protection of the saudi monarchy.


You are correct about one of OBL's motivations but you're using circular logic.  Saudi Arabia did not force Americans, through lobbying and slowly but surely taking over our own government, to set up bases there and attack other nations pre-emptively.  That is being done in Iraq and Afghanistan today.  Apples and oranges.  




> *Where do jihadists get most of their funding?* Wahabbis in Saudi Arabia.
> 
> But none of that fits into your "Israel is responsible for all of America's problems" theory


The same people that we also pay out the ass in oil prices too so they can spend that money on terrorism too.  What's your point?  I said that I wanted to end aid to the Saudis as well, but Saudi Arabia did not drag us into long drawn out holy wars.  We went to the aid of the Saudis and Kuwait solely to protect our oil interests from Hussein.  This current war is a religious conflict to exterminate the enemies of Israel and oil is but a secondary factor.  Stay on topic.

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## AmericaFyeah92

> The same people that we also pay out the ass in oil prices too so they can spend that money on terrorism too.  What's your point?  I said that I wanted to end aid to the Saudis as well, but Saudi Arabia did not drag us into long drawn out holy wars.  We went to the aid of the Saudis and Kuwait solely to protect our oil interests from Hussein.  This current war is a religious conflict to exterminate the enemies of Israel and oil is but a secondary factor.  Stay on topic.


Yes, the saudis obviously do get us into wars and conflicts. And they do have a very powerful lobby, just read Michael Scheuer's books. This lobby convinces US politicians to continue supporting a corrupt family dictatorship, which earns us even more hatred than supporting Israel. 

The turmoil over there is as much (or more) about Saudi Arabia as it is Israel. The Saudis are who we are really protecting from Al Qaeda. So ending aid to the Saudis should be priority #1, Israel should come second

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## devil21

> Yes, the saudis obviously do get us into wars and conflicts. And they do have a very powerful lobby, just read Michael Scheuer's books. This lobby convinces US politicians to continue supporting a corrupt family dictatorship, which earns us even more hatred than supporting Israel. 
> 
> The turmoil over there is as much (or more) about Saudi Arabia as it is Israel. The Saudis are who we are really protecting from Al Qaeda. So ending aid to the Saudis should be priority #1, Israel should come second


At least we GET something out of the funding to the Saudis, namely oil rights.  What do we get for all the funding to Israel?  Squat.  Oh wait, we get the honor of starting more wars than we can possibly handle.

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## Kraig

> I guess we can just replace "Jew" with "Zionist"??


Nope

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## Liberty Star

Bush's speech writer and inventor of "axis of evil' phrase David Frum too?  

Incredible, that guy should be tried in court of public opinion for pushing America towards decline by  inventing such reckless war mongering phrases.

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## ChooseLiberty

Generally the Sephardim are the Arab Jews you're talking about.  Some say they are the original Hebrews.  They look more like Arabs/Palestinians.  There's quite a controversy over the originations of the Ashkenazim / Sephardim groups.  

Check the article - An American Jew in Israel - for some info on how the Sephardim are treated in Israel.




> My brief understanding of Jewish bloodlines is that there is one type of Jew of middle eastern descent (this would be closest to the Biblical Jews) and another type of Jew of european descent that converted to Judaism roughly around 1000 AD.  I can't even begin to pronounce them so I can't spell them either, but I'll lookup the names if you don't know what I'm talking about.  I've also understood that the european Jews largely dominate the Zionist movement so it doesn't suprise me that only 20% of the Israeli citizens are "arab Jews" as you called them.
> 
> However, I still don't know if you have to be Jew to be an Israeli, so I don't think that answered my question.

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## tonesforjonesbones

That's what I heard also...the ashkanazi's are the converts. tones

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## Flash

> Good God!  This thread is starting to read like "Der Giftpilz"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess we can just replace "Jew" with "Zionist"??


Anyone that wants to break the Pro-Zionist and Pro-Israel attitude that the American government has is called "a Nazi" and "Anti-Semitic" now. Perhaps you would fit better with a Kahanist forum rather than a Libertarian one. As this isn't the first time you accused anti-Israelis of being pawns of National Socialist 1930's propaganda.
Pro-Zionists use scare-tactics. You better not speak against our taxpayers' money going towards Israel or else you're a racist and bigot, not only that you have ties to National Socialism.

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