# Liberty Movement > Defenders of Liberty > Justin Amash Forum >  Amash is all over Drudgereport

## Warlord

*Amash storm hits Capitol Hill... 

Republican holds ground on impeachment...

Buzz grows will challenge president as Libertarian... 

http://www.drudgereport.com*

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## Cap

Go Justin.

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## Superfluous Man

> Buzz grows will challenge president as Libertarian...


Headlines like this annoy me.

They can't quote anybody who actually is in any position to know where Amash is leaning. They just regurgitate older news about his having flirted with the idea, and allude to the fact that people who are not in any position to know anything about it are talking about it.

And now that they made the headline, people are talking about it, because it's in the news. It's just a self-generating news story for the sake of publishing something.

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## donnay

Koke influenced, I am sure.  Open Borders. No manufacturing in US. A "Never Trumper" from the get-go.

The US has been deindustrialized and these people want to further it--certainly not in America's best interest.

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## Superfluous Man

> Koke influenced, I am sure.  Open Borders. No manufacturing in US. A "Never Trumper" from the get-go.
> 
> The US has been deindustrialized and these people want to further it--certainly not in America's best interest.


Yeah, I'm sure that Amash would vote yes on a bill to ban manufacturing in the US.

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## PAF

> Go Justin.


+ Rep

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## timosman



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## PAF

> Koke influenced, I am sure.  Open Borders. No manufacturing in US. A "Never Trumper" from the get-go.
> 
> The US has been deindustrialized and these people want to further it--certainly not in America's best interest.


I am OK with open borders. What I am against is people like you who are restrictionists, demand/force companies to pay government minimum wage, else report the company to the government and deem them crimes, all while registering more people via "legal documentation" to the Fed.gov so that they pay their "fair share" to fund MORE via taxation to the Fed.gov. "Papers please?".

Communist statism at its finest. And you buy it hook line and sinker. It is sad how one administration can not get something enacted so the tone changes to convince the next administration to heard the sheep.

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## PAF

> Headlines like this annoy me.
> 
> They can't quote anybody who actually is in any position to know where Amash is leaning. They just regurgitate older news about his having flirted with the idea, and allude to the fact that people who are not in any position to know anything about it are talking about it.
> 
> And now that they made the headline, people are talking about it, because it's in the news. It's just a self-generating news story for the sake of publishing something.



The goal is to wipe him out and replace him with a Dem/Neocon who will have a nice, comfortable Freedom Index Score of 50% or UNDER. Hopefully the shills on this RPF will do everything they can to make that happen. I mean come on, we have been called anarchists and "purists" time and again, Justin's score of 94% is just completely unacceptable and incompatible with the current administration.

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## enhanced_deficit

> Open Borders. No manufacturing in US. ....


Fakenews. Did you know America-First MAGA hats were manufactured in China?
Much worse claims have been made about MAGA and his anti-nepotism leadership , Coulter has been attacking MAGA's top funder Adelson from get-go but haven't seen you finding fault with their foreign manufacturing or other globalist profiteering projects:

*Ivanka Trump exits White House conference call after questions on Chinese trademarks*



*Kushner, Ivanka Trump made at least $82 million in outside income while serving in White House

*

*From get-go, Coulter attacked MAGA's current top donor  Adelson on immigration*








Justin could be standing up against Israel-First globalist policies of GOP-Adelson wing, just one of the various possible speculations.

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## angelatc

Justin Amash has a voting record that is untouched.    This brouhaha from the Trumpettes, especially here on these forums, borders on the absurd.    We are on the edge of at least 2 wars, and the butthurt brigade is prepping to throw out one of the two biggest advocates for liberty and non-intervention in the House simply because he has strayed from the GOP thought-police plantation.

This is why I hate people.

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## PAF

> Justin Amash has a voting record that is untouched.    This brouhaha from the Trumpettes, especially here on these forums, borders on the absurd.    We are on the edge of at least 2 wars, and the butthurt brigade is prepping to throw out one of the two biggest advocates for liberty and non-intervention in the House simply because he has strayed from the GOP thought-police plantation.
> 
> This is why I hate people.


Well said + Rep

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## Todd

> Justin Amash has a voting record that is untouched.    This brouhaha from the Trumpettes, especially here on these forums, borders on the absurd.    We are on the edge of at least 2 wars, and the butthurt brigade is prepping to throw out one of the two biggest advocates for liberty and non-intervention in the House simply because he has strayed from the GOP thought-police plantation.
> 
> This is why I hate people.


Yep.  You don't have to agree with his assessment.  I think he is way off base and I think this is a battle he should just let die.  Every POTUS in my lifetime probably has been guilty of some crime or misdemeanor that was impeachable, but there is bigger stuff to tackle.

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## Snowball

> Yep.  You don't have to agree with his assessment.  I think he is way off base and I think this is a battle he should just let die.  Every POTUS in my lifetime probably has been guilty of some crime or misdemeanor that was impeachable, but there is bigger stuff to tackle.


I agree. If he switches to Libertarian and is in the Presidential Race, now that effort will be smeared by Trumpers 
because he supports impeachment. Trump is garbage, but impeachment is not warranted yet.

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## Warlord

Angela just made one of the bests posts on RPF ive seen in a while... +rep

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## PierzStyx

> Yeah, I'm sure that Amash would vote yes on a bill to ban manufacturing in the US.


Obviously he wouldn't. It amazes me how much these people want to trap America in the Industrial Age though. If they were around in the 1800s they would've opposed farming technology because it put field workers out of a job and have fought against Edison because they were afraid the light bulb would destroy the work of candle-making market. They consistently fail to recognize that moving beyond wasting our own time, resources, and wealth on the production of goods and being able to focus our time, wealth, and resources on using those goods for our own ends places even the poorest amongst us at a greater level of wealth than almost any other person at any time in all of history. Their opposition to it all is Rand's _Anthem_ happening in real life.

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## PierzStyx

> *Amash storm hits Capitol Hill... 
> 
> Republican holds ground on impeachment...
> 
> Buzz grows will challenge president as Libertarian... 
> 
> http://www.drudgereport.com*


The Libertarian Party could have no greater gift.

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## PierzStyx

> I agree. If he switches to Libertarian and is in the Presidential Race, now that effort will be smeared by Trumpers 
> because he supports impeachment. Trump is garbage, but impeachment is not warranted yet.


Do you have to belong to the party in order to run? I know that is normally the case but I'd support him no matter what the letter after his name was.

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## Superfluous Man

> Obviously he wouldn't. It amazes me how much these people want to trap America in the Industrial Age though. If they were around in the 1800s they would've opposed farming technology because it put field workers out of a job and have fought against Edison because they were afraid the light bulb would destroy the work of candle-making market. They consistently fail to recognize that moving beyond wasting our own time, resources, and wealth on the production of goods and being able to focus our time, wealth, and resources on using those goods for our own ends places even the poorest amongst us at a greater level of wealth than almost any other person at any time in all of history. Their opposition to it all is Rand's _Anthem_ happening in real life.


+rep

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## LibertyEagle

> I am OK with open borders. What I am against is people like you who are restrictionists, demand/force companies to pay government minimum wage, else report the company to the government and deem them crimes, all while registering more people via "legal documentation" to the Fed.gov so that they pay their "fair share" to fund MORE via taxation to the Fed.gov. "Papers please?".
> 
> Communist statism at its finest. And you buy it hook line and sinker. It is sad how one administration can not get something enacted so the tone changes to convince the next administration to heard the sheep.


What YOU are supporting is world communism.  But, you don't seem to even realize it.

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## devil21

At least there'd finally be a real libertarian running as the LP nominee instead of fakeatarians like Barr and Weld.





> What YOU are supporting is world communism.  But, you don't seem to even realize it.


(meaning the topic of borders, not world communism, per se)

I'll say that's the part of the globalist agenda I'm mostly ok with, after realizing that borders and "nations" have mainly been used by the ruling powers for hundreds, if not thousands, of years to foment their profiteering wars of conquest.  How do you incite people to go kill people in other parts of the world if you can't apply a label to them, such as Iraqi?  You can't!  The modern iteration of "nations" is very much a british empire creation and for what should now be obvious reasons since it still happens today.  The sun never truly set on the british empire.

It's a tricky situation, for sure, to maintain a particular culture when anyone can come to "your" land and set up shop, but if people believe in competition in the marketplace, why not also believe in competition of cultures?  Even down to competition in such basic things as biology/breeding?  I have thought it contradictory how conservatives on one hand pray at the altar of "free market competition" but then on the other hand so vehemently oppose it when it comes to topics like borders.

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## LibertyEagle

> Obviously he wouldn't. It amazes me how much these people want to trap America in the Industrial Age though. If they were around in the 1800s they would've opposed farming technology because it put field workers out of a job and have fought against Edison because they were afraid the light bulb would destroy the work of candle-making market. They consistently fail to recognize that moving beyond wasting our own time, resources, and wealth on the production of goods and being able to focus our time, wealth, and resources on using those goods for our own ends places even the poorest amongst us at a greater level of wealth than almost any other person at any time in all of history. Their opposition to it all is Rand's _Anthem_ happening in real life.


No.  Just no.  There is a huge difference between new inventions changing the way we live, produce and operate in our country and government passing laws and enacting regulations to encourage entire industries to relocate to other countries.  Then, give our tax dollars to fund roads, schools, airports, etc. in those countries to aid said corporations.

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## jon4liberty

> What YOU are supporting is world communism.  But, you don't seem to even realize it.


Principles over people. Open borders, one day we all can be equally third worlders.

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## LibertyEagle

> At least there'd finally be a real libertarian running as the LP nominee instead of fakeatarians like Barr and Weld.


True and as much as I like Justin, I would not vote for him.  This is not the time.  All he would do is possibly get us a Biden or Kamala Harris.  As many shortcomings as Trump has, we do seem to have his ear to some degree.  Or at least Rand thinks so.  Justin has no chance whatsoever.  You know that, Justin knows that and I know that.  I think it's strange that he would pick this time to run for president.  Something is up with Justin for the last couple of years.  Not sure what, but hanging back and watching.

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## Snowball

Overall he's committing political suicide, and that's why Bill Kristol applauds him. 

If Amash switches to L it would be a 3-way in Michigan, the Democrat would win, 
and he can look for a new job. 

Sadly, he better start looking for a new job because he earned a R primary opponent who Trump will work for. 

With nothing left to lose, you see Amash likely to pursue the L nomination for the Presidency in a race where 
the Left and Center are extremely motivated to turn to Joe Biden.

None of this was necessary.  Now we lose a voice and vote of dissent in Congress.

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## PAF

> At least there'd finally be a real libertarian running as the LP nominee instead of fakeatarians like Barr and Weld.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll say that's the part of the globalist agenda I'm mostly ok with, after realizing that borders and "nations" have mainly been used by the ruling powers for hundreds, if not thousands, of years to foment their profiteering wars of conquest.  How do you incite people to go kill people in other parts of the world if you can't apply a label to them, such as Iraqi?  You can't!  The modern iteration of "nations" is very much a british empire creation and for what should now be obvious reasons since it still happens today.  The sun never truly set on the british empire.
> 
> It's a tricky situation, for sure, to maintain a particular culture when anyone can come to "your" land and set up shop, but if people believe in competition in the marketplace, why not also believe in competition of cultures?  Even down to competition in such basic things as biology/breeding?  I have thought it contradictory how conservatives on one hand pray at the altar of "free market competition" but then on the other hand so vehemently oppose it when it comes to topics like borders.



Very well said. Out of +Rep so here ya go.

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## LibertyEagle

> At least there'd finally be a real libertarian running as the LP nominee instead of fakeatarians like Barr and Weld.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll say that's the part of the globalist agenda I'm mostly ok with, after realizing that borders and "nations" have mainly been used by the ruling powers for hundreds, if not thousands, of years to foment their profiteering wars of conquest.  How do you incite people to go kill people in other parts of the world if you can't apply a label to them, such as Iraqi?  You can't!  The modern iteration of "nations" is very much a british empire creation and for what should now be obvious reasons since it still happens today.  The sun never truly set on the british empire.
> 
> It's a tricky situation, for sure, to maintain a particular culture when anyone can come to "your" land and set up shop, but if people believe in competition in the marketplace, why not also believe in competition of cultures?  Even down to competition in such basic things as biology/breeding?  I have thought it contradictory how conservatives on one hand pray at the altar of "free market competition" but then on the other hand so vehemently oppose it when it comes to topics like borders.


Don't you see, devil, that's what they want.  To be able to roll everything into world government, they had to undermine the U.S..  They've been working on it for many, many years.  

I think of countries as cutouts where people of similar beliefs can live together peacefully.  And as said by a variety of our founding fathers, we should trade and travel with other countries.  There is no reason why they have to be like us; quite the contrary.  They live as they choose and we live as we choose.  As long as there is no attacks against us, or imminent threat of one, we should leave each other the heck alone, outside of trade and travel and being well-wishers.

World government doesn't cause peace among all peoples.  What it does is hand all power to an even smaller group of people.  People that we have no chance whatsoever to replace.  You think it's bad now?   You ain't seen nothing yet.

Our Founding Fathers wanted the majority of any government we had to be close to us, or with us individually.  The reason for that is so that we could kick out the bums very easily.  The further government gets from us... state... federal...world, the less control we have over it.  Government may be a wicked necessary evil, but if it is to satisfactorily exist, it must be tightly constrained (by us).   We should be working to reduce what the federal government is involved in and sending necessary functions back down to the states and the people.  NOT trying to help the world communists push more power up to a global elite.

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## enhanced_deficit

> Overall he's committing political suicide, and that's why Bill Kristol applauds him. 
> ...


MAGA's globalist foreign policy is a political suicide, that's why Sheldon Adelson, Hannity, Levin, ZOA-First Bolton, Dershowitz, Lindsey Graham, Prager, Netanyahu, Kushner, John 'more war in the name of Jesus' Hagee  applaud him.

Many of these guys have seen poiltical ends of Bush-Cheney but the 'history repeats itself and we do not learn' show must go on.



Related
*
Ron Paul: Why Is It Political Suicide For Anyone To Criticize AIPAC?       * 

https://lionsofliberty.com/2012/11/3...iticize-aipac/

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## angelatc

> Overall he's committing political suicide, ...... 
> .


I remember a guy from Texas  who gave up his seat in the House to run for President on the Libertarian ticket.  He also ran for the Senate and lost.  He then won his House seat back and proceeded to tick off the GOP for a couple decades, running two more unsuccessful presidential campaigns in  that time frame.  These forums are named after him.

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## angelatc

> Don't you see, devil, that's what they want.  To be able to roll everything into world government, they had to undermine the U.S..  They've been working on it for many, many years.  .


Curious - what positions do you think Ron Paul and Justin Amash differ on?

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## devil21

> Don't you see, devil, that's what they want.  To be able to roll everything into world government, they had to undermine the U.S..  They've been working on it for many, many years.  
> 
> I think of countries as cutouts where people of similar beliefs can live together peacefully.  And as said by a variety of our founding fathers, we should trade and travel with other countries.  There is no reason why they have to be like us; quite the contrary.  They live as they choose and we live as we choose.  As long as there is no attacks against us, or imminent threat of one, we should leave each other the heck alone, outside of trade and travel and being well-wishers.
> 
> World government doesn't cause peace among all peoples.  What it does is hand all power to an even smaller group of people.  People that we have no chance whatsoever to replace.  You think it's bad now?   You ain't seen nothing yet.


It's a complicated topic with no good choices since humans are flawed creatures, no matter where they reside and are not capable of "governing" each other for that exact reason.  We only have to look at what our own governments have become to know this is true.  My local government is full of morons that don't know $#@! about $#@!.  They just like being part of the 'elect'.  

I do think our views of history are very different so we will likely never see this complicated topic the same way.  My understanding is that this country was created to be used as a tool to bring about world government, not to be an everlasting sole superpower.  The destruction you refer to was baked into the cake from the start.  Not unlike the symbolism of the twin towers being built then later destroyed by a controlled demolition.

The "world government" is pretty much already here and has been for a while.  The finishing touches are being applied now in the form of Agenda 2030.  I also must mention that the "nationalist" Trump never says a peep about A2030 and looks to me to be a fine distraction while those touches are applied.  I understand and agree with most of your thoughts but on the topic of borders alone, the real history of where the modern iteration of nations and borders comes from and why they were instituted doesn't lie.

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## Snowball

> I remember a guy from Texas  who gave up his seat in the House to run for President on the Libertarian ticket.  He also ran for the Senate and lost.  He then won his House seat back and proceeded to tick off the GOP for a couple decades, running two more unsuccessful presidential campaigns in  that time frame.  These forums are named after him.


Yes, of course - but was that a good move? Ron did not become nationally recognizable until he was very old. 
Now he's too old to run again and Rand picks up the helm.. but is Rand switching to L ? no. It was not the right move.

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## oyarde

What I find interesting ( and it might only be me ) is that I think we have arrived at a time where it does not even matter who a Libertarian candidate for president is . 1) I do not think they can get any votes 2) if they did it would hand the presidency to a bernie 3) I fail to see how any of that is good for me . Personally I hope the guy stays where he is .

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## dannno

> Curious - what positions do you think Ron Paul and Justin Amash differ on?


I think they would vote the same on most all bills, but Justin Amash seems to have a lot more trust in the mainstream media. In fact, you almost have to worship them to believe this Trump/Russia nonsense and have as much TDS as he does. 

That said, we still need him in congress.

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## Snowball

> What I find interesting ( and it might only be me ) is that I think we have arrived at a time where it does not even matter who a Libertarian candidate for president is ..


it never mattered. 

Now with the marijuana legalization thing embraced by Dems and Reps, the party is well under <1%

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## nobody's_hero

> Justin Amash has a voting record that is untouched.    This brouhaha from the Trumpettes, especially here on these forums, borders on the absurd.    We are on the edge of at least 2 wars, and the butthurt brigade is prepping to throw out one of the two biggest advocates for liberty and non-intervention in the House simply because he has strayed from the GOP thought-police plantation.
> 
> This is why I hate people.


I don't want to see him go precisely for those reasons. You're not gonna easily find someone to fill that seat and have that kind of a voting record. I do find it curious that so many people here want to cheer him on as he commits an act of political hari kari, but no one ever accused libertarians of being politically savvy, so maybe I shouldn't find that so odd.

If_ I_ was gonna fall on a sword, I would rather it be going against a war in Iran and pissing off TPTB, and going out in a blaze of glory, rather than parroting the MSM talking points. No one's gonna remember him for that.

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## Cap

It's called principle. Amash has it in spades.

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## Superfluous Man

> I do find it curious that so many people here want to cheer him on as he commits an act of political hari kari


Supporting someone who put principles before pragmatic politics is what brought us here in the first place.

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## Brian4Liberty

> ...
> (meaning the topic of borders, not world communism, per se)
> 
> I'll say that's the part of the globalist agenda I'm mostly ok with, after realizing that borders and "nations" have mainly been used by the ruling powers for hundreds, if not thousands, of years to foment their profiteering wars of conquest.  How do you incite people to go kill people in other parts of the world if you can't apply a label to them, such as Iraqi?  You can't!  The modern iteration of "nations" is very much a british empire creation and for what should now be obvious reasons since it still happens today.  The sun never truly set on the british empire.
> 
> It's a tricky situation, for sure, to maintain a particular culture when anyone can come to "your" land and set up shop, but if people believe in competition in the marketplace, why not also believe in competition of cultures?  Even down to competition in such basic things as biology/breeding?  I have thought it contradictory how conservatives on one hand pray at the altar of "free market competition" but then on the other hand so vehemently oppose it when it comes to topics like borders.


An interesting conversation to be had there. Are nations competitors? Is war a form of competition? Does eliminating borders eliminate competition between nations? 

Corporations compete but they dont go to war. That is unless they have enough power to drive a nation to war on their behalf.

What I found interesting recently was a Trotskyite on TV explaining how global communism can only work when it is implemented globally. Anything less and it wont work. Its kind of an ironic position. It will work, as long as there is no competition.

So the goal is global uniformity in political and economic systems. No competition. Can nations exist under this system? They would probably claim that nations can still exist, but they would be relatively meaningless. The saying that nations are only lines on a map becomes the goal. Make them nothing but lines on a map. Divisions of the larger global order. Pieces of the same global pie.

Of course history shows that enforcing such conformity tends to become more and more draconian over time. No doubt the government would be entirely consumed with enforcing economic, societal and political conformity. Penalties would be severe.

Would war be replaced with a Big Brother state, continuously at war with any deviation, non-conformity or competition?

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## nobody's_hero

> Supporting someone who put principles before pragmatic politics is what brought us here in the first place.


You find me some principles other than "Orange man bad" and I'll concede the point. You still have to explain why sometimes Ron Paul agrees with Trump and sometimes he lets him have it and doesn't hold back. At least when he finds fault with Trump he doesn't pull his talking points out of CNN transcripts. You are making it more about the man than the issues. In all his years in office, Ron NEVER did that.

This ain't the sword to fall on, friend.

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## dannno

> It's called principle. Amash has it in spades.


Uh, his Trump comments are very anti-libertarian and pro-establishment.. that said, he is still better than 99% of the people in congress.

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## PierzStyx

> What YOU are supporting is world communism.  But, you don't seem to even realize it.


World communism the free exchange of goods and service across borders with no government regulation or centralized control? You expect us to really believe that? How stupid do you think people are, because only a complete ignoramous would believe that.

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## Superfluous Man

> You find me some principles other than "Orange man bad" and I'll concede the point.


Let's flip that, and if you can find Amash ever saying, "Orange man bad," then you don't have to concede the point. But if you can't then you just conceded it already by saying this.

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## nobody's_hero

> Let's flip that, and if you can find Amash ever saying, "Orange man bad," then you don't have to concede the point. But if you can't then you just conceded it already by saying this.


I ain't flipping Jack Schitt with you. 

You know what this whole charade is? Everything from DAY ONE of this presidency.

_Newsletters. 
_
If you don't get the connection, you'd best go digging deep in the archives of RPF and find thread after thread of posts about_ "Newsletters"._ F*ckin *superficial.* *character.** assassination.* Wasn't right when they did it to Ron, and it ain't right now. I mean FFS, how can someone be dragged through the mud this much and still come out orange?

_You dont' get it._ 

*In 5 years, maybe one, Trump is gone. 
*
GONE my friend. OUT. DONE. KAPUT. SAYONARA! -----I've been saying it since the first meltdown video went viral.

You know what is still gonna be here? 

Alphabet agencies controlled by special interests and backroom agreements hellbent on suppressing political opposition like some banana republic secret police force. (that includes you)
A cabal of neoliberal/neoconservative mainstream media outlets that actively root out and destroy anything that doesn't fit an approved narrative.(yours ain't it)
Hordes of misguided liberals screaming "reeeeee!!!!!" at anything you say to drown out your voice.(if you can help from screaming with them, you might notice)

Basically everything you support, right now, to fight something as temporary, as Trump, is gonna be looking for a bottle of lube and a table to bend you over.

The #%it I'm warning you about, the sh#^ you _SHOULD_ be afraid of, oh— it'll still be here. But hey, ya got rid of Trump. You got rid of a _reality. TV. show. star._ Thunderous golf clap, for you sir!

You need to decide right quick which one you think is a bigger, lasting threat. I've made up my mind. But you just stay focused on Trump, sweetheart. I'm willing to bet near everything I own including the family pets to think a lot of accounts are just gonna go inactive when he is out of office. Mission accomplished.

^^^^^there's your mother fk'in principles. I've got 'em, "In spades."

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## Superfluous Man

> I ain't flipping Jack Schitt with you.


Apology accepted.

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## jon4liberty

> What YOU are supporting is world communism.  But, you don't seem to even realize it.





> Curious - what positions do you think Ron Paul and Justin Amash differ on?


Ron talked about troops on the border not overseas. Justins tool company manufactures in China so justin is putting personal preference over people and country

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## nobody's_hero

> Apology accepted.


Go get back on your moral high horse. I didn't mean to knock it out from under you. Actually I did, but, it is your horse and you should have it back.


I just did a search for "newsletters" on RPF and there's 80 pages of archive. You'd best get cracking. You want to know what we had to deal with from the MSM/establishment before Trump got here, and what we're gonna have to deal with in the coming days when he's gone, if you're in this for the long haul.

But then again if you're just some spoof account created in 2016 to oppose a reality TV star, and aren't gonna be here after 20-24, I don't advise you to waste your time with the research.

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## axiomata

> Koke influenced, I am sure.  Open Borders. No manufacturing in US. A "Never Trumper" from the get-go.
> 
> The US has been deindustrialized and these people want to further it--certainly not in America's best interest.


Yeah, Koch Industries really hates domestic Industries and manufacturing.

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## Superfluous Man

> Go get back on your moral high horse. I didn't mean to knock it out from under you. Actually I did, but, it is your horse and you should have it back.
> 
> 
> I just did a search for "newsletters" on RPF and there's 80 pages of archive. You'd best get cracking. You want to know what we had to deal with from the MSM/establishment before Trump got here, and what we're gonna have to deal with in the coming days when he's gone, if you're in this for the long haul.
> 
> But then again if you're just some spoof account created in 2016 to oppose a reality TV star, and aren't gonna be here after 20-24, I don't advise you to waste your time with the research.


I know all about the newsletters. And it's clear enough to me that there's no resemblance between anything Amash has done and any of those dishonest smears against Ron Paul. You're too caught up in your blind worship of Donald Trump to see that. Your inability to find any examples of Amash doing that after you first accused him of it is proof that you know this.

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## invisible

> Justin Amash has a voting record that is untouched.    This brouhaha from the Trumpettes, especially here on these forums, borders on the absurd.    We are on the edge of at least 2 wars, and the butthurt brigade is prepping to throw out one of the two biggest advocates for liberty and non-intervention in the House simply because he has strayed from the GOP thought-police plantation.
> 
> This is why I hate people.





> The goal is to wipe him out and replace him with a Dem/Neocon who will have a nice, comfortable Freedom Index Score of 50% or UNDER. Hopefully the shills on this RPF will do everything they can to make that happen. I mean come on, we have been called anarchists and "purists" time and again, Justin's score of 94% is just completely unacceptable and incompatible with the current administration.


Hammer, meet nail.  This is exactly why the trumpettes and shylls are here, Ron Paul and his supporters' efforts to elect more Liberty Candidates were successful enough to be a threat.  Direct opposition to Ron Paul, direct opposition to Massie, now direct opposition to Amash.  And the entire time, the constant sales pitch for supporting the lesser of two evils instead of getting more Massies and Amashes and Rands elected.  This place used to be focused on activism instead of endless arguing with deluded trumpettes and the shylls.

----------


## nobody's_hero

> I know all about the newsletters. And it's clear enough to me that there's no resemblance between anything Amash has done and any of those dishonest smears against Ron Paul. You're too caught up in your blind worship of Donald Trump to see that. Your inability to find any examples of Amash doing that after you first accused him of it is proof that you know this.


Look I said, I don't want to see Amash go. 94% freedom index is pretty* damned* good for a congressman. 

I suspect YOU are the one who wants him to be gone, insisting that he jump on this witch-hunt bandwagon, which is *POLITICAL SUICIDE* in republican circles. Unless y'all are intentionally trying to get Amash out of office by encouraging this stand, I give you sir, an F, in situational awareness. The support he will gain from joining the bandwagon is going to be negligible to the loss he's gonna take when the neocon MSM gets done with him. Y'all want him to lose this battle AND the war. Hell there's a good chance that Amash might outlast Trump's time in office. Well, there _was._ Hopefully it was worth losing a congressman just so you can poke Trump in the eye. _H'yuck h'yuck h'yuck_. G-d-damn, use your brains.

You gave me a neg rep, and I'm somewhat offended, but not because you didn't like what I said. I basically just let loose what was on my heart with that post, put time and effort into it, and you gave me a one-liner reply presumptively accepting an apology from me I never offered. 

I still don't apologize.

And you missed about 90% of what I wrote. I even bolded and italicized the important parts for you. Between you and I, I'm the one who isn't 'blinded by Trump.' I'm telling you, in 5 years, he's gone. The clown is gonna leave the circus. If you're ready to start fighting the MSM then, we'll be waiting for you. But you know, you could always start now.

----------


## donnay

> Yeah, Koch Industries really hates domestic Industries and manufacturing.


They love that really cheap labor--that's what helps them make billions and helps Koch Dynasty political influences.  That is the bottom line.

----------


## PAF

> Hammer, meet nail.  This is exactly why the trumpettes and shylls are here, Ron Paul and his supporters' efforts to elect more Liberty Candidates were successful enough to be a threat.  Direct opposition to Ron Paul, direct opposition to Massie, now direct opposition to Amash.  And the entire time, the constant sales pitch for supporting the lesser of two evils instead of getting more Massies and Amashes and Rands elected.  This place used to be focused on activism instead of endless arguing with deluded trumpettes and the shylls.


+ Rep.

Some of us are still activists, attend weekly meetings and events to help educate others ;-)

----------


## PAF

> They love that really cheap labor--that's what helps them make billions and helps Koch Dynasty political influences.  That is the bottom line.


So if/when you decide to open a business out your garage (until you expand), you would not mind if I complained about what you are paying your workers, or better yet, if I turned you in to the government, even if I am not part owner? Or perhaps if you decide to hire me and I feel that I am not being paid enough and your and my negotiations fail, I should have a right to order you to pay more or cry to the government to "do something (Danke)".

There was a time when workers worked, climbed the ladder, sought other employment, or took the risk and started their own venture. Now we have folks on RPF "complaining" about what a private owner/business does. Marvelous.

----------


## dannno

> Look I said, I don't want to see Amash go. 94% freedom index is pretty* damned* good for a congressman. 
> 
> I suspect YOU are the one who wants him to be gone, insisting that he jump on this witch-hunt bandwagon, which is *POLITICAL SUICIDE* in republican circles. Unless y'all are intentionally trying to get Amash out of office by encouraging this stand, I give you sir, an F, in situational awareness. The support he will gain from joining the bandwagon is going to be negligible to the loss he's gonna take when the neocon MSM gets done with him. Y'all want him to lose this battle AND the war. Hell there's a good chance that Amash might outlast Trump's time in office. Well, there _was._ Hopefully it was worth losing a congressman just so you can poke Trump in the eye. _H'yuck h'yuck h'yuck_. G-d-damn, use your brains.
> 
> You gave me a neg rep, and I'm somewhat offended, but not because you didn't like what I said. I basically just let loose what was on my heart with that post, put time and effort into it, and you gave me a one-liner reply presumptively accepting an apology from me I never offered. 
> 
> I still don't apologize.
> 
> And you missed about 90% of what I wrote. I even bolded and italicized the important parts for you. Between you and I, I'm the one who isn't 'blinded by Trump.' I'm telling you, in 5 years, he's gone. The clown is gonna leave the circus. If you're ready to start fighting the MSM then, we'll be waiting for you. But you know, you could always start now.


Outta rep...

----------


## dannno

> World communism the free exchange of goods and service across borders with no government regulation or centralized control? You expect us to really believe that? How stupid do you think people are, because only a complete ignoramous would believe that.


What the hell are you talking about? 

You really think Trump's opposition wants free trade? 

Are you completely insane, or just totally delusional?

Trump just took off all the tariffs on Mexico and Canadian steel. Because he made a deal with them. Because they finally decided to cooperate and give us a better deal (better deal = lower tariffs/taxes). 

Trump doesn't want tariffs, he wants fair deals with low tariffs on both sides. This isn't rocket appliances. How long are you going to be in your TDS bubble?

----------


## donnay

> So if/when you decide to open a business out your garage (until you expand), you would not mind if I complained about what you are paying your workers, or better yet, if I turned you in to the government, even if I am not part owner? Or perhaps if you decide to hire me and I feel that I am not being paid enough and your and my negotiations fail, I should have a right to order you to pay more or cry to the government to "do something (Danke)".
> 
> There was a time when workers worked, climbed the ladder, sought other employment, or took the risk and started their own venture. Now we have folks on RPF "complaining" about what a private owner/business does. Marvelous.


I hate when Billionaires throw their billions for political gain, and that is exactly what the Koch brothers and others like them do.  We're not talking a free market here with people that monopolize the market and flood it with cheap labor and goods where others cannot compete.

----------


## donnay

> Outta rep...


Gotcha covered.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> Hammer, meet nail.  This is exactly why the trumpettes and shylls are here, Ron Paul and his supporters' efforts to elect more Liberty Candidates were successful enough to be a threat.  Direct opposition to Ron Paul, direct opposition to Massie, now direct opposition to Amash.  And the entire time, the constant sales pitch for supporting the lesser of two evils instead of getting more Massies and Amashes and Rands elected.  This place used to be focused on activism instead of endless arguing with deluded trumpettes and the shylls.


+rep

They're getting bolder and bolder.

----------


## PAF

> I hate when Billionaires throw their billions for political gain, and that is exactly what the Koch brothers and others like them do.  We're not talking a free market here with people that monopolize the market and flood it with cheap labor and goods where others cannot compete.


We can agree on that, but instead of blaming the problem on "invaders" or request government intervention, or complain about what businesses pay or do not pay, why not get to the root and we all demand an end to lobbying? It has to start somewhere, the more of us who scream the better. But we must help educate others to the root cause.

----------


## RonZeplin

Justin Amash & Austin Petersen - Libertarian Party 2020. 

Dump Trump!  Dump the D&R party global crime syndicate

----------


## Swordsmyth

> At least there'd finally be a real libertarian running as the LP nominee instead of fakeatarians like Barr and Weld.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (meaning the topic of borders, not world communism, per se)
> 
> I'll say that's the part of the globalist agenda I'm mostly ok with, after realizing that borders and "nations" have mainly been used by the ruling powers for hundreds, if not thousands, of years to foment their profiteering wars of conquest.  How do you incite people to go kill people in other parts of the world if you can't apply a label to them, such as Iraqi?  You can't!  The modern iteration of "nations" is very much a british empire creation and for what should now be obvious reasons since it still happens today.  The sun never truly set on the british empire.
> 
> It's a tricky situation, for sure, to maintain a particular culture when anyone can come to "your" land and set up shop, but if people believe in competition in the marketplace, why not also believe in competition of cultures?  Even down to competition in such basic things as biology/breeding?  I have thought it contradictory how conservatives on one hand pray at the altar of "free market competition" but then on the other hand so vehemently oppose it when it comes to topics like borders.


Liberty is not natural, tyranny is the law of the jungle and the result you would get.

You are supporting world wide communism.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> It's called principle. Amash has it in spades.


Not on this.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> It's called principle. Amash has it in spades.


Show me where he called for O'Bummer's impeachment for any of his real crimes.

----------


## TER

Amash still going at it with the impeachment nonsense.  Very disappointing.  I was hoping he would cool it after the backlash. 

I think this is only going to do irreparable damage to him within the GOP at a time when we need stronger leadership coming from the House Freedom caucus.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> World communism the free exchange of goods and service across borders with no government regulation or centralized control? You expect us to really believe that? How stupid do you think people are, because only a complete ignoramous would believe that.


The world is full of communists and you can't wait for them to come here and impose it on us.

Liberty is not popular or natural.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> We can agree on that, but instead of blaming the problem on "invaders" or request government intervention, or complain about what businesses pay or do not pay, why not get to the root and we all demand an end to lobbying? It has to start somewhere, the more of us who scream the better. But we must help educate others to the root cause.


Oh! Look!

The "Anarchist" wants government to control political speech and eliminate the right to petition for redress of grievances.

----------


## Dr.3D

> Oh! Look!
> 
> The "Anarchist" wants government to control political speech and eliminate the right to petition for redress of grievances.


Well, isn't there a difference between petitioning for redress and the so called lobbying (bribing) of members of congress?

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Well, isn't there a difference between petitioning for redress and the so called lobbying (bribing) of members of congress?


It depends on how you define it, there are already laws against bribery and if you try to restrict political speech or donations you will only hurt the ability of the little people to compete with the big wigs who use personal relationships to influence government.

----------


## axiomata

> They love that really cheap labor--that's what helps them make billions and helps Koch Dynasty political influences.  That is the bottom line.


I'm quite sure a gig at Koch Industries would be a nice salary.

----------


## KEEF

> Justin Amash has a voting record that is untouched.    This brouhaha from the Trumpettes, especially here on these forums, borders on the absurd.    We are on the edge of at least 2 wars, and the butthurt brigade is prepping to throw out one of the two biggest advocates for liberty and non-intervention in the House simply because he has strayed from the GOP thought-police plantation.
> 
> This is why I hate people.


Truth^

----------


## TheTexan

It's times like these that remind me why I love politics

----------


## phill4paul

> Justin Amash has a voting record that is untouched.    This brouhaha from the Trumpettes, especially here on these forums, borders on the absurd.    We are on the edge of at least 2 wars, and the butthurt brigade is prepping to throw out one of the two biggest advocates for liberty and non-intervention in the House simply because he has strayed from the GOP thought-police plantation.
> 
> This is why I hate people.


  Perhaps Amash should be more like Rand. Work with Trump where he can and criticize where appropriate. Jumping on the progressive bandwagon of impeachment is dumb as $#@!. Amash should know better. And if he doesn't then I guess he is just a dumb $#@!.

----------


## TER

> Perhaps Amash should be more like Rand. Work with Trump where he can and criticize where appropriate. Jumping on the progressive bandwagon of impeachment is dumb as $#@!. Amash should know better. And if he doesn't then I guess he is just a dumb $#@!.


Or feels threatened?  No one knows but him and God what Justin is going through.  

We should pray for Justin and for all who are fighting for the rule of law.

May our Father in Heaven protect all those who fight for truth.

----------


## donnay

> I'm quite sure a gig at Koch Industries would be a nice salary.


Sure it would be if you were from a third-world nation.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> Amash still going at it with the impeachment nonsense.  Very disappointing.  I was hoping he would cool it after the backlash. 
> 
> I think this is only going to do irreparable damage to him within the GOP at a time when we need stronger leadership coming from the House Freedom caucus.


And by "stronger leadership" you apparently mean toeing the party line.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> Sure it would be if you were from a third-world nation.


I take it you see something wrong with hiring people from third-world nations?

----------


## TheTexan

> Perhaps Amash should be more like Rand. Work with Trump where he can and criticize where appropriate. Jumping on the progressive bandwagon of impeachment is dumb as $#@!. Amash should know better. And if he doesn't then I guess he is just a dumb $#@!.


We have like what 2 Congressmen and a Senator.  We can't afford to be losing seats like this.

We're gonna have to vote really hard in next year's elections to try and make up this loss.

----------


## TheTexan

Maybe we can convince  @Matt Collins to run for Congress to replace Amash.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Maybe we can convince  @Matt Collins to run for Congress to replace Amash.


I think he wants Rand's seat.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> And by "stronger leadership" you apparently mean toeing the party line.


It beats towing the MSM line.

----------


## donnay

> I take it you see something wrong with hiring people from third-world nations?


Yes, I see it wrong when there are citizens in this country, that are homeless and starving.  I believe charity begins at home.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> Yes, I see it wrong when there are citizens in this country, that are homeless and starving.  I believe charity begins at home.


I know there are a number of homeless people in America, but generally these are not people who would be productive employees and just can't find jobs but rather people who have a mental illness or addition or some other circumstances that preclude them from being able to work.

And starving? Where'd you come up with that? Nobody in America is starving unless it's by choice, or again, as a result of some unusual circumstance that getting a job wouldn't help.

Finally, if you want to look at hiring people as a matter of charity (which seems dubious to me, but for the sake of argument lets run with it), then you should also recognize it as voluntary and not obligatory. If you wish to prioritize your charitable giving to one group of people over another, then by all means do that. But the priorities someone else has in their charitable giving aren't your concern. If someone is giving aid to starving people in another country, that's praiseworthy. There's no grounds for criticizing them just because they did a positively good thing for one person and not some other person.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> I know there are a number of homeless people in America, but generally these are not people who would be productive employees and just can't find jobs but rather people who have a mental illness or addition or some other circumstances that preclude them from being able to work.
> 
> And starving? Where'd you come up with that? Nobody in America is starving unless it's by choice, or again, as a result of some unusual circumstance that getting a job wouldn't help.
> 
> Finally, if you want to look at hiring people as a matter of charity (which seems dubious to me, but for the sake of argument lets run with it), then you should also recognize it as voluntary and not obligatory. If you wish to prioritize your charitable giving to one group of people over another, then by all means do that. But the priorities someone else has in their charitable giving aren't your concern. If someone is giving aid to starving people in another country, that's praiseworthy. There's no grounds for criticizing them just because they did a positively good thing for one person and not some other person.


Bubble...

----------


## PAF

> Yes, I see it wrong when there are citizens in this country, that are homeless and starving.  I believe charity begins at home.


Maybe this will help:

Stossel - Bad Laws Cause Homeless Crisis

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...omeless-Crisis

No, the government does not want to fix root problems; the government only does things to ensure its growth.

----------


## donnay

> I know there are a number of homeless people in America, but generally these are not people who would be productive employees and just can't find jobs but rather people who have a mental illness or addition or some other circumstances that preclude them from being able to work.
> 
> And starving? Where'd you come up with that? Nobody in America is starving unless it's by choice, or again, as a result of some unusual circumstance that getting a job wouldn't help.
> 
> Finally, if you want to look at hiring people as a matter of charity (which seems dubious to me, but for the sake of argument lets run with it), then you should also recognize it as voluntary and not obligatory. If you wish to prioritize your charitable giving to one group of people over another, then by all means do that. But the priorities someone else has in their charitable giving aren't your concern. If someone is giving aid to starving people in another country, that's praiseworthy. There's no grounds for criticizing them just because they did a positively good thing for one person and not some other person.


Mental illness is definitely a problem mainly on the left, but I digress.  There are many people who are homeless or one paycheck away from being homeless that are starving.  If we allowed charities (many Americans are charitable), instead of government, to help these people than we can kill two birds with one stone.  Nevertheless, government has made that nearly impossible in some states--mainly the states that are being overrun with homeless people.  Coincidentally, mostly run by Liberals.

I am not speaking of charity per se when it comes to hiring people, what I am saying (which you missed that point) is, that there are many people in this country that would like to work and yet these companies are hiring foreigners with little to no education to be trained and make wages for a lot less and makes the company a lot more.

----------


## donnay

> Maybe this will help:
> 
> Stossel - Bad Laws Cause Homeless Crisis
> 
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...omeless-Crisis
> 
> No, the government does not want to fix root problems; the government only does things to ensure its growth.


Yes bad laws do hurt people, I think that goes without saying.  Just look at the states that have the highest homeless rates, and you will see they are governed by liberals who would like nothing more than to blow out our economy and see more people on the streets to lord over them.

----------


## juleswin

> Sure it would be if you were from a third-world nation.


What is that supposed to mean? where did u get this idea that Koch industry is a bad place to work at? I would probably want to work there not because I am from a third world country but because they probably pay better than my current employer. What am I missing here?

----------


## ATruepatriot

> Yes bad laws do hurt people, I think that goes without saying.  Just look at the states that have the highest homeless rates, and you will see they are governed by liberals who would like nothing more than to blow out our economy and see more people on the streets to lord over them.


*Unsightly RV camp that has sprung up outside Google's HQ is threatened with closure*

Residents of the expensive California neighborhood where Google has its global headquarters have voted to ban trailers from parking overnight on public streets after a camp of permanent residences has built up due to soaring housing costs.

The decision to get rid of the unsightly RVs came in a March city council vote after complaints of sewage spilling from the mobile homes and into the roads around the Googleplex campus.

Many in the meeting blamed the Google effect for forcing long-term residents out of their homes and in turn creating the housing crisis that has seen some get in trouble for discharging 'domestic sewage on the public right of way'.

But some making a home in the trailers  often with power generators attached to the back and blacked out dusty windows - are also contractors for the company who can't afford the high living costs.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Area-high.html

----------


## Superfluous Man

> There are many people who are homeless or one paycheck away from being homeless that are starving.


Starving? Not in America.

----------


## angelatc

> You find me some principles other than "Orange man bad" and I'll concede the point. You still have to explain why sometimes Ron Paul agrees with Trump and sometimes he lets him have it and doesn't hold back. At least when he finds fault with Trump he doesn't pull his talking points out of CNN transcripts. You are making it more about the man than the issues. In all his years in office, Ron NEVER did that.
> 
> This ain't the sword to fall on, friend.


People used to accuse Ron Paul of exactly that when he railed against the wars.

Are you implying that Amash never agrees with and/or votes with Trump?

----------


## angelatc

> Ron talked about troops on the border not overseas. Justins tool company manufactures in China so justin is putting personal preference over people and country


Now THIS is classic.  Using this ''logic''  Trump is obviously colluding with Russia because he has Russian business interests.  

Amash has always been anti-tariff.  That is consistent with his position on free trade.  We don't need to fabricate some hidden agenda.  He stated quite clearly that he read the report and based on the content he is of the opinion that Trump attempted to obstruct the investigation.

----------


## nobody's_hero

> People used to accuse Ron Paul of exactly that when he railed against the wars.
> 
> Are you implying that Amash never agrees with and/or votes with Trump?


Is Amash railing against wars? 

I'm not trying to be obtuse, but what I'm saying is that there is a plethora of other issues that Amash could throw down with Trump over. Stopping a war would DEFINITELY be one what I'd say is worth him going "all in" on. 


Perception counts for a lot in politics. A lot of people here have a better idea of what really goes on than your average republican voter. The problem is, you kind of _need_ the average republican voter. _Changing_ perception is not easy. _Finding ways to use it to your advantage_ is at least manageable. [libertarians take a note on that: there will be a test later ]


We haven't acknowledged, since day one of this presidency, that the PERCEPTION of the average republican voter is that Trump is anti-establishment. I said this as early as the debates, that it was not a smart move for Rand to go for Trump right off the starting line, that he should have picked off the small fries so at the very _least_, he could have a shot at getting it down to just him and Trump on stage, and we could actually have a real debate without the "noise." The result is that he "went to the light" and got zapped by the bug zapper just like the rest of the swarm who couldn't resist as the debates went on. From what I remember, Rand was slain in battle fairly early in that fight. Sure, maybe it wouldn't have worked—maybe it would have come down to Rand and Trump on stage and Trump still coming out on top—but as it happened it was like watching a slow-motion train wreck. It should have been easy picking to at least remove the full-blown neocons on stage one by one until folks were able to determine which candidate between Trump or Rand was TRULY anti-establishment. Republicans were obviously ready for a change, they just didn't get the best one in the bunch. Sorry, I digress.

So, what is this impeachment stuff?_ Noise_. There is *NOT* going to be an impeachment. Even if there is, we're past the midway point so you're looking at a potential of nearly 10 years of Pence if he takes over now. Amash just bet the farm on _noise_. So what's gonna happen when the guns are loaded and ready to fire? —Amash gone and Massie in the House trying to hold the line. That's what we're looking at now. I *cannot*, under those circumstances and with that prospect in mind, cheer this on.

I suppose Amash wasn't aware that the vast majority of republican voters are absolutely *fed up* to the eyeballs with the constant battering of Trump by the media 25 hours a day, 8 days a week since he took office. The racism smears. The redundant investigations. The nothing-burgers replayed over the airwaves ad-nauseum simply for the meaningless conclusion of shrugging their shoulders and saying "_maybe_ he did, _maybe_ he didn't".  . . _Noise_. If Amash _was_ aware of this fact, then he just committed suicide-by-voter. 

Amash has not always voted on every issue in the way the majority of his constituents want, but he had a relationship with them to where he can usually explain WHY he voted like he did and they seem to have respected that for about a decade of him being in office, and disagreements were tolerated. (Ron Paul's experience was probably the same way in Texas.) Why now? Why over _noise_, is he going to throw that away? 

We should know by now that most voters don't really care how you vote, especially once you're in office. The truth, whether we like it or not—as much as we wish it weren't so—is that they care about what you say that can make them smile. There'd better be one big-ass rabbit in Amash's hat.

----------


## TER

> Amash still going at it with the impeachment nonsense.  Very disappointing.  I was hoping he would cool it after the backlash. 
> 
> I think this is only going to do irreparable damage to him within the GOP at a time when we need stronger leadership coming from the House Freedom caucus.





> And by "stronger leadership" you apparently mean toeing the party line.


Uh no. I never mentioned or implied toeing the party line. At least I didn’t mean it to come out that way. 

I mean that if Amash is out of the House for insisting on continuing this witch-hunt and loses his seat in the Freedom Caucus, where he should be as one of its leaders, then that would be a huge loss.

----------


## donnay

> What is that supposed to mean? where did u get this idea that Koch industry is a bad place to work at? I would probably want to work there not because I am from a third world country but because they probably pay better than my current employer. What am I missing here?





> The Kochs’ free-market ideology has not prevented their companies from taking economic development subsidies from state and local governments. In 2013 it was reported that Koch Industries was the largest investor in the Big River Steel project in Arkansas that was slated to receive some $139 million in state and local financial assistance.
> 
> The Good Jobs First Subsidy Tracker lists state, local and federal subsidy awards to the company amounting to more than $196 million.


https://www.corp-research.org/koch_industries

----------


## donnay

> Starving? Not in America.


Keep your blinders on if you must.

----------


## devil21

> Liberty is not natural, tyranny is the law of the jungle and the result you would get.
> 
> You are supporting world wide communism.


Going on record as disagreeing with the Declaration of Independence and BoR?  Ballsy but not surprising.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> Keep your blinders on if you must.


I'm not wearing blinders. If you actually know of evidence for your claim that many Americans are starving, please share it. I don't see how that's even possible with the availability of so many sources of help for those who need it here.

----------


## donnay

> I'm not wearing blinders. If you actually know of evidence for your claim that many Americans are starving, please share it. I don't see how that's even possible with the availability of so many sources of help for those who need it here.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> 


Those people are clearly not starving.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> People used to accuse Ron Paul of exactly that when he railed against the wars.
> 
> Are you implying that Amash never agrees with and/or votes with Trump?


This is not equivalent to opposing wars, in fact he is making it harder for Trump to resist the Neocons push for wars by supporting the treasonous coup, the bigger the push for impeachment the more Trump will be reminded that he needs Neocon votes to survive it.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Going on record as disagreeing with the Declaration of Independence and BoR?  Ballsy but not surprising.


LOL 

GOD endows man with rights but he doesn't enforce them for him and we live in a world of fallen men who do not respect them.
The founders new that liberty was a manmade creation, a drop of civilization in a jungle of tyranny, they read Locke, you should too.

----------


## angelatc

> This is not equivalent to opposing wars, in fact he is making it harder for Trump to resist the Neocons push for wars by supporting the treasonous coup, the bigger the push for impeachment the more Trump will be reminded that he needs Neocon votes to survive it.



Whatever.  I'm not ever going to walk away from a #TeamLiberty member because Donald Trump's sycophants are up in arms over whatever the drama of the day is.  

Like it or not, Amash's voting record is far more conservative than Trump's.  I have principles.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Whatever.  I'm not ever going to walk away from a #TeamLiberty member because Donald Trump's sycophants are up in arms over whatever the drama of the day is.  
> 
> Like it or not, Amash's voting record is far more conservative than Trump's.  I have principles.


So once you label someone as on your team they can do no wrong?
Amash is wrong in a big way here.

----------


## angelatc

> So once you label someone as on your team they can do no wrong?
> Amash is wrong in a big way here.


He most certainly isn't wrong if he is saying something he legitimately believes to be true.   Truth is treason in an empire of lies.

----------


## specsaregood

> He most certainly isn't wrong if he is saying something he legitimately believes to be true.   Truth is treason in an empire of lies.


That no crime and dishonorable behavior is grounds for impeachment?

----------


## Swordsmyth

> He most certainly isn't wrong if he is saying something he legitimately believes to be true.   Truth is treason in an empire of lies.


I don't believe he legitimately believes it or he would have called for impeachment over the bumpstock ban or something else that actually had a basis instead of waiting until now to jump on board the treasonous coup, not to mention that he never called for O'Bummer's impeachment for crimes that were much worse and committed in the open.

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## angelatc

> That no crime and dishonorable behavior is grounds for impeachment?


It is entirely possible to be guilty of obstructing an investigation even if the investigation eventually produces no evidence to support the underlying theory.  




> I don't believe he legitimately believes it or he would have called for impeachment over the bumpstock ban or something else that actually had a basis instead of waiting until now to jump on board the treasonous coup, not to mention that he never called for O'Bummer's impeachment for crimes that were much worse and committed in the open.


Whataboutism is misdirection.   Again, he did nothing wrong by making this statement if he sincerely believes it.  His job in Congress is certainly not to provide a safe haven for the president or the party.    

You can't convince me that there's not another Republican that secretly thinks this has merit, nor will you convince me that there aren't any Democrats that quietly wish his colleagues would get over the non-stop cult of personality issues and admit this whole thing was a huge waste of time.  

Amash is just the crack in the cognitive dissonance on both sides.

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## specsaregood

> It is entirely possible to be guilty of obstructing an investigation even if the investigation eventually produces no evidence to support the underlying theory.


ok, but amash specifically said that grounds for impeachment didn't even require a crime and could just be for dishonorable behavior.  If he really feels that way, he should have moved to impeach Obama and Trump long ago.

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## Swordsmyth

> It is entirely possible to be guilty of obstructing an investigation even if the investigation eventually produces no evidence to support the underlying theory.


It's not an impeachable offense, especially when the investigation was an illegal treasonous cuop.






> Whataboutism is misdirection.   Again, he did nothing wrong by making this statement if he sincerely believes it.  His job in Congress is certainly not to provide a safe haven for the president or the party.    
> 
> You can't convince me that there's not another Republican that secretly thinks this has merit, nor will you convince me that there aren't any Democrats that quietly wish his colleagues would get over the non-stop cult of personality issues and admit this whole thing was a huge waste of time.  
> 
> Amash is just the crack in the cognitive dissonance on both sides.


My post was not misdirection, what I said indicates strongly that he does NOT sincerely believe the garbage he is spouting and is just doing this for personal reasons or political gain, unfortunately for him he won't get any from it.

Nobody on either side believes this garbage.

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## devil21

> LOL 
> 
> GOD endows man with rights but he doesn't enforce them for him and we live in a world of fallen men who do not respect them.
> The founders new that liberty was a manmade creation, a drop of civilization in a jungle of tyranny, they read Locke, you should too.


What part of being endowed by their Creator with liberty is a man-made creation?  The only man-made creation is the _government_.

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## Swordsmyth

> What part of being endowed by their Creator with liberty is a man-made creation?  The only man-made creation is the _government_.


The part where it is enforced so that people actually enjoy their rights to some degree.



And yes it takes a government to do that, that's why the founders had state governments and created the federal government.

You are the one out of step with the wisdom of the founders.

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## devil21

> The part where it is enforced so that people actually enjoy their rights to some degree.
> 
> 
> 
> And yes it takes a government to do that, that's why the founders had state governments and created the federal government.
> 
> You are the one out of step with the wisdom of the founders.


The usual moving of the goalposts from you.  You said liberty is a man-made creation, which is contrary to what the DoI says.  The DoI says government is instituted to secure liberty.  It does not create it, however.  That's like saying that a vault creates what is stored inside of it.  If you build a vault, gold will magically appear inside of it?

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## Swordsmyth

> The usual moving of the goalposts from you.  You said liberty is a man-made creation, which is contrary to what the DoI says.  The DoI says government is instituted to secure liberty.  It does not create it, however.  That's like saying that a vault creates what is stored inside of it.  If you build a vault, gold will magically appear inside of it?


Liberty is the state of being where your rights are enforced and protected, it is not natural nor does GOD provide it, it is a mandmade condition.

The DoI doesn't say anything to contradict that, securing liberty is how it is created, if it isn't secured it doesn't exist in this fallen world.

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## devil21

> Liberty is the state of being where your rights are enforced and protected, it is not natural nor does GOD provide it, it is a mandmade condition.


You just keep on doubling down.  Are you british, by chance?

DOI:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, *that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.*

Endowed by Creator with liberty.  It's plain language.  You can say that you disagree with the DoI if you want but insisting that it isn't what the DoI says is ridiculous.




> The DoI doesn't say anything to contradict that, securing liberty is how it is created, if it isn't secured it doesn't exist in this fallen world.


Dude you gotta be a brit with your whole "never let go of a lie, just double down on it" that brits are so well known for.  I can see how subjects of the Crown would think that liberty comes from another person.  It's how you're accustomed to living.

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## Stratovarious

> I am OK with open borders. ...


That's a fkg hoot, I thought you promoted open borders, ''okay with it'' 
:facepalm:

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## Swordsmyth

> You just keep on doubling down.  Are you british, by chance?
> 
> DOI:
> We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, *that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.*
> 
> Endowed by Creator with liberty.  It's plain language.  You can say that you disagree with the DoI if you want but insisting that it isn't what the DoI says is ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> Dude you gotta be a brit with your whole "never let go of a lie, just double down on it" that brits are so well known for.  I can see how subjects of the Crown would think that liberty comes from another person.  It's how you're accustomed to living.


Read it AGAIN man is endowed by his creator with A RIGHT TO LIBERTY, GOD doesn't enforce it any more than he enforces our other rights, we are also endowed with a right to life but millions are murdered every year.

Look around at the world and tell me that GOD is enforcing our right to liberty, I dare you.

You are the dedicated liar and follower of the father of lies.

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## devil21

> Read it AGAIN man is endowed by his creator with A RIGHT TO LIBERTY, GOD doesn't enforce it any more than he enforces our other rights, we are also endowed with a right to life but millions are murdered every year.


Rights are innate simply by being born, therefore they occur naturally.  Rights are not "man-made".  The method to continually "secure" them is what is man-made.  Liberty is a natural right you have simply by being born.  I actually think the DoI is wrong regarding government being that which secures the natural right of liberty.  Only YOU can secure your right of liberty.  Relying on others to secure your rights is folly.  Based on your quote below I think we do agree on that.





> Look around at the world and tell me that GOD is enforcing our right to liberty, I dare you.





> You are the dedicated liar and follower of the father of lies.


Always with the derogatory personal attacks when called out on your bs.  Your entire posting history here is nothing but one giant lie.  Who you are, where you're from, why you're here, all of it.  All lies.  Every last thing about your presence here is a lie.  And worse, you spend an inordinate amount of time, day after day, defending the biggest liar in the country.  And you accuse others of being liars?  Please dude, your act is old, tired and reeks of desperation to maintain a narrative that you know is failing miserably.  It's sad and I actually feel sorry for you if this is what your life has devolved into.  40 posts a day, non-stop 14 hours a day on a web forum that few read, pushing lie after lie for people that don't care one little tiny bit about you.  I really hope you have a good reason other than just collecting a check.

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## Swordsmyth

> Rights are innate simply by being born, therefore they occur naturally.  Rights are not "man-made".  The method to continually "secure" them is what is man-made.  Liberty is a natural right you have simply by being born.  I actually think the DoI is wrong regarding government being that which secures the natural right of liberty.  Only YOU can secure your right of liberty.  Relying on others to secure your rights is folly.  Based on your quote below I think we do agree on that.


The right to something and the thing are two different things, the right to liberty is natural but liberty is not, man must create and secure liberty and he must create a government to do it, the failure of most governments to do it for most of history doesn't mean there is any other way to do it.









> Always with the derogatory personal attacks when called out on your bs.  Your entire posting history here is nothing but one giant lie.  Who you are, where you're from, why you're here, all of it.  All lies.  Every last thing about your presence here is a lie.  And worse, you spend an inordinate amount of time, day after day, defending the biggest liar in the country.  And you accuse others of being liars?  Please dude, your act is old, tired and reeks of desperation to maintain a narrative that you know is failing miserably.  It's sad and I actually feel sorry for you if this is what your life has devolved into.  40 posts a day, non-stop 14 hours a day on a web forum that few read, pushing lie after lie for people that don't care one little tiny bit about you.  I really hope you have a good reason other than just collecting a check.


You can dish it out but you can't take it?

Typical.

I do not lie but you do frequently.

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## PAF

> That's a fkg hoot, I thought you promoted open borders, ''okay with it'' 
> :facepalm:


I am not a restrictionist. Whether one wants or needs to travel is up to that person, not me, not you, certainly not government bureaucrats. The issue that I have is government taking my hard-earned money and passing it out like candy in the form of welfare/incentives, not one slight different than corporate bailouts. The problem with passing out money is that foreigners AND Americans learn to count on that, and that is where the "vote issue" comes to play. Eliminate the handouts, people will understand that they need to be responsible and work if they want to survive. Restricting travel does nothing to solve or educate, the problem will still persist and grow.

Once you become a restrictionist, you oppose/reject Natural Rights (Bill of Rights). Read them and see what I mean. Once you understand that, you will have arrived.

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## Cap

> Always with the derogatory personal attacks when called out on your bs.  Your entire posting history here is nothing but one giant lie.  Who you are, where you're from, why you're here, all of it.  All lies.  Every last thing about your presence here is a lie.  And worse, you spend an inordinate amount of time, day after day, defending the biggest liar in the country.  And you accuse others of being liars?  Please dude, your act is old, tired and reeks of desperation to maintain a narrative that you know is failing miserably.  It's sad and I actually feel sorry for you if this is what your life has devolved into.  40 posts a day, non-stop 14 hours a day on a web forum that few read, pushing lie after lie for people that don't care one little tiny bit about you.  I really hope you have a good reason other than just collecting a check.


The shyll is using typical neocon tactics. I'm out of rep devil.

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## PAF

> The shyll is using typical neocon tactics. I'm out of rep devil.


Covered.

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## devil21

> The right to something and the thing are two different things, the right to liberty is natural but liberty is not, man must create and secure liberty and he must create a government to do it, the failure of most governments to do it for most of history doesn't mean there is any other way to do it.


We apparently have different views on what a "right" is and that stems from our different levels of comprehension of what reality is today.  When you are born, you have liberty/freedom.  It is something you are born with, therefore it is a "right".  It is not man-made, other than sex being an act undertaken by humans.  It is innate.  Rights are something you are born with and _simply describes the exercising of a condition that already exists_.  

In our modern society, that liberty hasn't _ever_ been taken away and we do still have it.  The operation of the economic system requires that you (or in the case of soon after being born, your mother) VOLUNTARILY, if ignorantly, signs away your liberty/freedom via the certificate of live birth.  Haven't you noticed that everything that infringes on your natural born liberty (a right) requires your voluntary agreement and, then, your compliance?  The Constitution also secures your right to enter into contracts, which is how liberty/freedom is freely given up.  At the same time, whether you enter into that contract or continue to honor the contract is your own choice.  Your liberty/freedom to make choices.   I could write for days on this topic, but here's a quick example.  When you go into a courtroom, you VOLUNTARILY, though ignorantly, give up your position as beneficiary of the public trust and declare yourself to be trustee of the public trust.  That trustee status that you chose to accept makes you liable for whatever the case is about.  It is a choice.  You still have the liberty/freedom to NOT accept that position.  That's one example.




> You can dish it out but you can't take it?
> 
> Typical.
> 
> I do not lie but you do frequently.


It's funny you say that because it's often quoted that "Satan" never lies.  "Satan" either gets others to lie for him or omits important parts that make it a lie of omission.  If you've ever watched "Lost", notice that Ben never lies.  Ben is allegory for Satan and Lost takes place in hell.  You are by far more like Ben than I am.

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## Swordsmyth

> I am not a restrictionist. Whether one wants or needs to travel is up to that person, not me, not you, certainly not government bureaucrats. The issue that I have is government taking my hard-earned money and passing it out like candy in the form of welfare/incentives, not one slight different than corporate bailouts. The problem with passing out money is that foreigners AND Americans learn to count on that, and that is where the "vote issue" comes to play. Eliminate the handouts, people will understand that they need to be responsible and work if they want to survive. Restricting travel does nothing to solve or educate, the problem will still persist and grow.
> 
> Once you become a restrictionist, you oppose/reject Natural Rights (Bill of Rights). Read them and see what I mean. Once you understand that, you will have arrived.


Eliminating incentives will not solve the problem, they will still come here for the wealth that liberty creates and vote to create the incentives.
And that's pretending that you can ever end the incentives while allowing them to come here in unlimited numbers which you can't.
You can't educate them as fast as they come unless you limit how many are allowed to come.
And the BoR doesn't give anyone a right to come here.

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## Swordsmyth

> We apparently have different views on what a "right" is and that stems from our different levels of comprehension of what reality is today.  When you are born, you have liberty/freedom.  It is something you are born with, therefore it is a "right".  It is not man-made, other than sex being an act undertaken by humans.  It is innate.  Rights are something you are born with and _simply describes the exercising of a condition that already exists_.


That's nonsense, you do not have liberty in this world unless you and/or others create it, you have a right to it and therefore a right to create it but you don't have it just by being born.





> In our modern society, that liberty hasn't _ever_ been taken away and we do still have it.  The operation of the economic system requires that you (or in the case of soon after being born, your mother) VOLUNTARILY, if ignorantly, signs away your liberty/freedom via the certificate of live birth.  Haven't you noticed that everything that infringes on your natural born liberty (a right) requires your voluntary agreement and, then, your compliance?  The Constitution also secures your right to enter into contracts, which is how liberty/freedom is freely given up.  At the same time, whether you enter into that contract or continue to honor the contract is your own choice.  Your liberty/freedom to make choices.   I could write for days on this topic, but here's a quick example.  When you go into a courtroom, you VOLUNTARILY, though ignorantly, give up your position as beneficiary of the public trust and declare yourself to be trustee of the public trust.  That trustee status that you chose to accept makes you liable for whatever the case is about.  It is a choice.  You still have the liberty/freedom to NOT accept that position.  That's one example.


That's garbage, the world doesn't operate on those obscure defunct laws that nobody knows or cares about.





> It's funny you say that because it's often quoted that "Satan" never lies.  "Satan" either gets others to lie for him or omits important parts that make it a lie of omission.  If you've ever watched "Lost", notice that Ben never lies.  Ben is allegory for Satan and Lost takes place in hell.  You are by far more like Ben than I am.


The devil lies all the time, take your satanist propaganda elsewhere.

And trying to prove the lie by quoting Hollywood satanist propaganda is an insult to my intelligence.

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## Stratovarious

> Read it AGAIN man is endowed by his creator with A RIGHT TO LIBERTY, GOD doesn't enforce it any more than he enforces our other rights, we are also endowed with a right to life but millions are murdered every year.
> 
> Look around at the world and tell me that GOD is enforcing our right to liberty, I dare you.
> 
> You are the dedicated liar and follower of the father of lies.


_''You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Swordsmyth again.''_

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## Stratovarious

> ...
> Once you become a restrictionist, you oppose/reject Natural Rights (Bill of Rights). Read them and see what I mean. _Once you understand that, you will have arrived._


Your childish condescension is duly note, now 'Homer' , let us know how  
Open Borders in developed Countries works.....

It doesn't..........


Also , let us know how Open Borders is any better than an RPG enigma for a prosperous 
and culturally rich Nation. 


:'THEN YOU HAVE ARRIVED':

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