# News & Current Events > Individual Rights Violations: Case Studies >  Transgender woman told to leave womens locker room

## presence

> *Did I mention I just love and adore women?* 
> 
> Their touch, feel, scent, taste. . . . are all intoxicating to me! 
> Giving oral sex, kisses, nibbling, and lots of caressing and touch make  me a happy girl. 
> []
> I feel sex in every pore of my body  and have a thousand and one erogenous zones!
> []
> have* a little dominant streak* that comes out sometimes  as well. 
> []
> ...


http://pretendbian.wordpress.com/201...ncis/#more-862

...visit the Women's Locker Room:




> The decision to allow a transgender 45-year-old college student who identifies as a woman but *has male genitalia* to use the 
> 
> *women's locker room* 
> 
> has raised a fracas among parents and faith-based organizations, who say* 
> 
> children as young as 6 
> 
> years old use the locker room.*
> ...




http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs/transgender-student-womens-locker-room-raises-uproar-221516308--abc-news-topstories.html


http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/transgender-woman-told-leave-womens-locker-room/nSWT4/



> According to state law, it requires equal access to state facilities regardless of gender identity.
> []
> “This is not 1959 Alabama. We don’t call police for drinking from the wrong water fountain,” said Francis.



http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/



> *Most of these students were minors ranging in age from* *6 to 18*


 

*mod response to question:*not when it isn't accurate

--------------------------------------

Edit to topic:

This op is open to discuss the two above articles, the rights of transgender people to use the bathroom or undress in a dressing room that matches their gender identity but not their equipment, we're discussing physical androgeny in refrence to these issues, as well as the various design of facilities which would avoid this whole issue, the social structures which would improve this issue, the culture clash of the majority culture vs transgender community, and finally this particular pervinawig's right to show his penis to a 6 year old.  If you can tie something to any of those topics and they don't scare you off outright, please join in... we're somewhere beyond page 20.


A plea for peace:

One, I'd like to plea to moderation that this thread stay here in "individual rights and liberties" on the main board if at all possible; I've done my best to self moderate the thread along the way.  This issue is very illustrative of the liberty movement, the nuances of liberty logic, and the resolution of conflict and paradox through open debate.  My second and greater plea is that if you choose to post in this thread, you please refrain from ad hominem attacks against members (which is a site policy), specifically in the form of *"YOU are such a"*.  I can guarentee you will run in to some abrasive comments in the coming pages that will infuriate you.  I'm doing my best to encourage all comments to be directed at* ideas, not members.*  In light of this, I also ask that we not use the terms "homophobe (ic)" or "transphobe (ic)" in the thread.  Regardless of how you may be using those words, they are often taken as derisive slurs by other members and lead to flames, which lead to threads being ditched to hot topics (off the non-member/public board) and members being banned. There is now over 25 pages of public content; lets not lose it.  

also:

ABC News 11/3/12
*Transgender Student in Women's Locker Room Raises Uproar*
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blog...opstories.html




> *"The college has to follow state law,"* 
> 
> Evergreen spokesman Jason Wettstein told ABC News affiliate KOMO. "The college cannot discriminate based on the basis of gender identity. 
> *
> Gender identity is one of the protected things in discrimination law in [Washington] state."*




presence

----------


## jkr

IRONY:

"drinking from the wrong water fountain"

get it?

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## Acala

I don't think it is too stringent of a requirement for admission to the girl's locker room that the person be penis-free.

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## TonySutton

> I don't think it is too stringent of a requirement for admission to the girl's locker room that the person be penis-free.


Why?

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## Danke

> I don't think it is too stringent of a requirement for admission to the girl's locker room that the person be penis-free.


Transphobe!!

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## presence

> I don't think it is too stringent of a requirement  for admission to the girl's locker room that the person be  penis-free.


Just *devilling* your notion... so had he taken the _fetish_ full bore; had plastic surgery... chop... this would have been totally cool?

Is it who the man thinks he is?
Or is it what the man shows?
Or what the man sees?

Or a little of each?

Or really nothing?

----------


## Acala

> Why?


Because ANYONE can put on a dress and a wig.  Having the penectomy shows sincerity.  It's a bright line test that weeds out any shenanigans.

But, as usual, the better answer is to not HAVE state-run facilities like this.

----------


## TheGrinch

> Why?


Ummm, because it's a girl's locker room that high school girls use, not a drinking fountain.

Or would you rather we use the law to make sure that any perv in a wig (not saying "she" is, but it provides precedence) has equal access to the place where little girls change and shower?

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## jmdrake

> Just *devilling* your notion... so had he taken the fetish full bore; had plastic surgery... chop... this would have been totally cool?


If he/she had gone the whole way I'm assuming nobody would have known he had been a he.

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## Acala

> Just *devilling* your notion... so had he taken the fetish full bore; had plastic surgery... chop... this would have been totally cool?


Yup.  It is a pretty good indicator of a lack of prurient interest in women and should be visually offensive to anyone.

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## TheGrinch

> Just *devilling* your notion... so had he taken the fetish full bore; had plastic surgery... chop... this would have been totally cool?


Their choice. Volluntary association, and I think the issue hinges on whether it makes the declothed girls feel uncomfortable... I know that's not fair, but there isn't a fair solution to things like this, without someone being offended.

I certainly don't think a one-size-fits-all equal access law should apply to lockerrooms.

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## TonySutton

> Because ANYONE can put on a dress and a wig.  Having the penectomy shows sincerity.  It's a bright line test that weeds out any shenanigans.
> 
> But, as usual, the better answer is to not HAVE state-run facilities like this.


But lesbians can use these facilities.  Certainly a lesbian could cause shenanigans without a penis.

----------


## TonySutton

> Ummm, because it's a girl's locker room that high school girls use, not a drinking fountain.
> 
> Or would you rather we use the law to make sure that any perv in a wig (not saying "she" is, but it provides precedence) has equal access to the place where little girls change and shower?


Actually, it is a ladies locker room at a college.  The high school girls use the facilities at the college.

----------


## TheGrinch

> Yup.  It is a pretty good indicator of a lack of prurient interest in women and should be visually offensive to anyone.


Actually good point, if you're going to go as far as chopping that willie off, then it does greatly lessen the percieved threat.

However, I'm not sure that jsut a female who looks like a dude (because she was) wouldn't scare some girls anyway. That's where it's a grey area, and I don't really see a need to get the law involved. If you're going to become transgender, expect that you may not have full access to places where female undress and change together.

----------


## TheGrinch

> But lesbians can use these facilities.  Certainly a lesbian could cause shenanigans without a penis.


And gay dudes can scope male lockerrooms, but if they're creating a disturbance, I support asking them to leave as well.

There is no fair solution here, so the only thing I'm argunig against is the one-size-fits-all law.

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## presence

Perhaps we mandate a third water fountain?

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## presence

> Ummm, because it's a girl's locker room that high school girls use, not a drinking fountain.
> 
> Or would you rather we use the law to make sure that *any perv in a wig* (not saying "she" is, but it provides precedence) has equal access to the place where little girls change and shower?


*
#anypervinawig*

hashtag meme!

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## TonySutton

> And gay dudes can scope male lockerrooms, but if they're creating a disturbance, I support asking them to leave as well.
> 
> There is no fair solution here, so the only thing I'm argunig against is the one-size-fits-all law.


I would imagine that depends on how you define "causing a disturbance."  If someone is peacefully using a facility should it be defined a disturbance because of how someone looks?  If someone has bad scarring from a fire should they be denied access or be directed to another facility because their appearance might be disturbing to someone else?  Where and how do you draw the line?

Background:  I have a transgendered friend who has had the upstairs surgery but has not yet had the downstairs surgery.  She lives her life as a woman.  She is a professional, living with her boy friend of 10+ years.  In discussions I have heard of some of the issues she has dealt with, especially since she started her transition.  I guarantee the majority of people would never suspect she is anything other than a woman if they were to meet her in public.

What do you think would be more disturbing, watching her enter a male or female restroom?

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## dannno

> But lesbians can use these facilities.  Certainly a lesbian could cause shenanigans without a penis.


I saw that one.

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## presence

> Actually good point, if you're going to go as far as chopping that willie off, then it does greatly lessen the percieved threat.


But isn't that also allowing the most extremist fetishists in while not allowing the lesser fetishist aboard for the viewing of little girls?

...just sayin'

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## thoughtomator

"Transgender woman" = mutilated male sex pervert and walking mental health disaster area

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## presence

> But lesbians can use these facilities.  Certainly a lesbian could cause shenanigans without a penis.


Don't tell your wife.

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## fisharmor

I've seen medieval paintings of co-ed bath houses.  Westerners have not always been such prudes.
I'm pretty sure that this is largely the result of Victorian sensibilities.
But unless someone can point to the law that created segregated restrooms and locker rooms, I'm going to assume it's a free market invention.
Likewise, the market would respond to this situation if there was a market for a solution.
There are already individual restrooms and locker rooms in many public places, meant for elderly, or parents with children.
When there are as many transgender individuals as there are parents with children, then they'll put in more individual rooms.
Problem solved.

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## presence

> I've seen medieval paintings of co-ed bath houses.  Westerners have not always been such prudes.
> []
> Problem solved.


+rep

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## TheGrinch

Not ignoring the devils advocate posts, but whats your grand solution?

Not really interested in playing gotcha, because its certainly not black and white.

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## presence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_toilet




> In 2005 there were only 5 American cities, including San Francisco and New York, with regulations for public restroom access based on person's perceived gender identity *rather than their birth* *sex**.*

----------


## presence

> Not ignoring the devils advocate posts, but whats your grand solution?


Avoid grand solutions at all cost.

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## TonySutton

> Not ignoring the devils advocate posts, but whats your grand solution?
> 
> Not really interested in playing gotcha, because its certainly not black and white.


As always, I say let the free market prevail.  It sounds like the school already has a solution in place. 

I read some  of the blog articles on this and they give the appearance that this individual might be taking advantage of the situation but we can not allow government to make laws to restrain 1% at the detriment of the 99% of transgendered persons who are considerate and understanding.  Honestly, my last statement goes both ways too.  We really do not need/want government making laws period.  Let the free market sort it out.

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## opal

Swim team kids were not nearly as uptight at those girls when my kid was in highschool swimming.

They might as well have shared a locker room .. girls were always in the boys locker rooms before big competitions - shaving the boys because they were clueless for leg shaving.. and couldn't reach their backs for back waxing.

This never would have happened in a drama club

----------


## TheGrinch

> Avoid grand solutions at all cost.


Precisely, as I've been saying, the one-size-fits-all equal access law is a crap justification.

Thus, unless you have a better solution than letting them decide if they think a dude turned female, with or without penis, is appropriate to allow to shower, undress and hang out in saunas with young females.

As was said earlier, "where do you draw the line?", I don't know, people always want to ask that, but then neglect things that are clearly on the other side of the line of what's considered decent. Sure if we had co-ed bathhouses, go nuts, but this is a women's lockerroom with young girls around. I don't think that qualifies as a free-for-all for anyone in a dress and wig.

I'm, sorry that things have to be so hard on TonySutton's friend, I do understand that transgender people have rights too, but all too often I think people confuse rights with being able to do whatever you want. If your actions affect other people, then no, you are not jsut allowed to go whereever you want and do whatever you want, anymore than I should be allowed in a woman's lockerrom if I was gay. I mean, a gay man is even less of a threat, but it's still not appropriate as per how our society operates.

As usual, if you want change you have to change the morality, not the laws.

(ETA: and as I see now from Tony's post, he obviously agrees)

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## presence

> 99% of transgendered persons who are considerate and understanding.


Devilling again... you got a study to link?




> _Over 50% of Transsexuals will have had at least one suicide attempt  by their 20th birthday. Even more self harm themselves daily either by  cutting or self mutilation._


http://www.tglynnsplace.com/suicide.htm

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## LibertyEagle

I fail to see why this is so difficult.  Is this a product of our public education these days?  

Have penis  =  NOT a female

Therefore, no access to female dressing rooms or bathrooms.

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## dannno

> Don't tell your wife.


Something tells me he doesn't have a wife.

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## Brian4Liberty

> According to a police report, the mother of a 17-year-old girl complained after her daughter saw the transgender individual walking naked in the locker room. A female swim coach confronted the man sprawled out in a sauna exposing himself. She ordered him to leave and called police.


This indicates behavior that would be classified as indecent exposure. There are laws against this. It is not a person who is trying to be discreet or to fit in as a female. It is not a co-ed shower room or nudist camp, so active displays such as this in a female locker room fall under the category of "pervert".

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## dannno

I'm gonna leave this one up to the property owner.

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## CaptUSA

If this guy gets in, I want in too!!  If I call myself Pre-pretransgender, I don't see why I can't check out the nekkidness of a bunch of young girls.

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## dannno

> If this guy gets in, I want in too!!  If I call myself Pre-pretransgender, I don't see why I can't check out the nekkidness of a bunch of young girls.


Just use the internet.

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## CaptUSA

> Just use the internet.


Are you sayin' there's naked girls somewhere on these internets?!!

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## TonySutton

[QUOTE=presence;4711073]Devilling again... you got a study to link?

no, I was using that as an example of how people want a special law to cover a rare case which turns around and penalizes the majority who act in a socially acceptable manner.  Especially when the issue is either already covered by existing law or is a case of private property owners discretion.

and to others, no I do not have a wife but I did once upon a time.

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## presence

> I fail to see why this is so difficult.  Is this a product of our public education these days?  
> 
> Have penis  =  NOT a female
> 
> Therefore, no access to female dressing rooms or bathrooms.


Devilling yet more...

What of the rights of physically-androgynous-intersex individuals (presumably many "transgender" people) to use a sexually segregated loo?




> Not XX and not XY
> one in 1,666 births
> 
> Klinefelter (XXY)
> one in 1,000 births
> 
> Androgen insensitivity syndrome
> one in 13,000 births
> 
> ...


http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

----------


## puppetmaster

> Why?


Then anyone who says they are gay can go in to any restroom they choose?

where does the PC BS end

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## LibertyEagle

> Devilling yet more...
> 
> What of the rights of physically-androgynous-intersex individuals (presumably many "transgender" people) to use a sexually segregated loo?


Let me boil this down for you.  If you still have your weiner, you haven't changed your sex.  

This political-correctness BS is getting a bit too thick, don't you think?

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## presence

> Let me boil this down for you.  If you still have your weiner, you haven't changed your sex.  
> 
> This political-correctness BS is getting a bit too thick, don't you think?





> But this is terribly rare,  right?  Wrong.  How common you think intersex is depends on what you  think counts as standard male and standard female. (For example, you  have to decide how small a penis must be before it counts as  non-standard, and that isn’t a scientific decision—it’s a social one.)   But conservatively speaking, one in 2,000 children is born with notably “ambiguous” sex.


http://www.isna.org/node/670

half coochie half weenie:

http://5minuteconsult.com/ViewImage/2027562/2027562: 75652_50_11.JPG

Which physically manifests as a "spectrum" from penis to vagina.  One could only expect that gender mentality also manifests as a spectrum.

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## LibertyEagle

The .05% that you just listed, I doubt, are laying exposed in a women's restroom.

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## presence

> The .05% that you just listed, I doubt, are laying exposed in a women's restroom.


Doubtless, but if someone is born 90% physically male but 90% mentally female do they not have the right?

Devilling... I have no firm take on any of this.  I'm just asking the important questions for sake of discussion.

If anything I do note that gender ambiguity and sexual ambiguity are a whole spectrum of "disorder".

*Gender and sexuality are more:*



*
THAN:*






And if we chart gender on the X and sex on the Y axis, the Z axis being frequency, we might get a bivariat distribution like Plot 1 below:

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## LibertyEagle

> Doubtless, but if someone is born 90% physically male but 90% mentally female do they not have the right?


To go in a women's restroom?  Hell no, they don't.  

See, that was easy.




> Devilling... I have no firm take on any of this.  I'm just asking the important questions for sake of discussion.
> 
> If anything I do note that gender ambiguity and sexual ambiguity are a whole spectrum of "disorder".


I don't see them as important questions at all.  I think debating this is rather ridiculous, actually.

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## Danke

> ... no I do not have a wife but I did once upon a time.


What did he do that made you two split up?

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## Danke

> Let me boil this down for you.  If you still have your weiner, you haven't changed your sex.


I am a lesbian, and I have a "weiner."

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## LibertyEagle

> Doubtless, but if someone is born 90% physically male but 90% mentally female do they not have the right?
> 
> Devilling... I have no firm take on any of this.  I'm just asking the important questions for sake of discussion.
> 
> If anything I do note that gender ambiguity and sexual ambiguity are a whole spectrum of "disorder".
> 
> *Gender and sexuality are more:*


You are confusing mental issues with physical makeup.

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## dannno

> You are confusing mental issues with physical makeup.


You are separating mental issues from physical makeup.

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## Tod

> I don't think it is too stringent of a requirement for admission to the girl's locker room that the person be penis-free.


I agree.  Have a penis?  You are a man and there is a locker room for men.  Post-op he becomes a she and can then use the women's locker room.

Otherwise, every pervert and their brother are going to throw on a wig and bra and go oogle the ladies.  And maybe vice versa.

----------


## presence

> You are confusing mental issues with physical makeup.


No.  Keep both gender and sex separate and create a mental chart, I would expect a low standard deviation 3d bimodal bivariate bell curve.  Perhaps with a lower standard deviation on the sex scale, than on the gender scale; creating two modes with oval isolines, when viewed from the z.


erg... I made a bunch of sense there but I can tell after re reading I'm burning the average readers statistical comprehension.

hrmmm.

So sex is going to have a bimodal distribution with sharp peaks.

Gender is going to have a bimodal distribution with "normal" peaks.

Graph them in a bivariate xyz and you'll get elongated oval isolines...

erg...

$#@! it.

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## Tod

> I am a lesbian, and I have a "weiner."


me too....a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

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## presence

> Otherwise, every pervert and their brother are going to throw on a wig and bra and go oogle the ladies.  And maybe vice versa.


anypervinawig as we say...

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## adisongrace

this thread is disgusting. too much transphobia going on here...
Aren't we suppose to be free thinking?

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## Danke

> Otherwise, every pervert and their brother are going to throw on a wig and bra and go oogle the ladies.

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## AFPVet

As others have mentioned, simply having a penis does not automatically make the person a man. I've heard of one story of a 'male' who found out later on via ultrasound that he also had a female reproductive system. This could confuse some 'males' who were born with both... having to explain why they have breasts and feel different than other males.

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## Origanalist

> No.  Keep both gender and sex separate and create a mental chart, I would expect a low standard deviation 3d bimodal bivariate bell curve.  Perhaps with a lower standard deviation on the sex scale, than on the gender scale; creating two modes with oval isolines, when viewed from the z.
> 
> 
> erg... I made a bunch of sense there but I can tell after re reading I'm burning the average readers statistical comprehension.
> 
> hrmmm.
> 
> So sex is going to have a bimodal distribution with sharp peaks.
> 
> ...


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to presence again.

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## Brian4Liberty

Non-gender specific, individual facilities are the answer for people who do not fit in well to standard men's or women's facilities.




> ...I guarantee the majority of people would never suspect she is anything other than a woman if they were to meet her in public.
> ...


In the case of Tony's friend, if she "fits in" so well that no one knows and no one finds out, there won't be an issue if they have no option other than to use the women's room.

The guy in the OP was a pervert who should be treated as such. Indecent exposure charges apply.

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## angelatc

> I guarantee the majority of people would never suspect she is anything other than a woman if they were to meet her in public.
> 
> What do you think would be more disturbing, watching her enter a male or female restroom?


So, you just said she's something other than a woman.

It would be more disturbing for her to enter a women's restroom.  We don't see penises in there.  But this is more than a restroom. This is a locker room.  The best solution is to homeschool - that's becoming more and more clear each day.  Let the liberals tolerate each other - leave my kids out of it.

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## angelatc

> this thread is disgusting. too much transphobia going on here...
> Aren't we suppose to be free thinking?


No.  Many of us are conservatives.  There are too many liberals here if this thread is considered disgusting.  The person is a freak, on several levels.

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## angelatc

> I agree.  Have a penis?  You are a man and there is a locker room for men.  Post-op he becomes a she and can then use the women's locker room.
> 
> Otherwise, every pervert and their brother are going to throw on a wig and bra and go oogle the ladies.  And maybe vice versa.


Yep.  Restrooms are different. I dont' care about those.  We're all in our own little stalls, nobody gets to see anybody's privates.  As long as it sits down to pee, nobody would ever know.

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## Brian4Liberty

> So, you just said she's something other than a woman.
> 
> It would be more disturbing for her to enter a women's restroom.  *We don't see penises in there.*  But this is more than a restroom. This is a locker room.  The best solution is to homeschool - that's becoming more and more clear each day.


That is key. You should never see one in a female-only facility.

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## heavenlyboy34

> No.  Many of us are conservatives.  There are too many liberals here if this thread is considered disgusting.  The person is a freak, on several levels.


Hey!  Freaks are people, too.

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## Tpoints

> Because ANYONE can put on a dress and a wig.  Having the penectomy shows sincerity.  It's a bright line test that weeds out any shenanigans.
> 
> But, as usual, the better answer is to not HAVE state-run facilities like this.


I guess if you were born lesbian, you get a free pass

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## thoughtomator

I don't think that being messed up enough to cut one's own penis off should give any man the privilege of walking into a women's bathroom. It deserves nothing more than a one-way trip to the crazy house.

Those suffering from chromosomal problems aside, if you have a Y chromosome you belong in the men's bathroom, full stop. The point of segregated bathrooms is to protect women, and no sane man will yield on this responsibility. There is no "if you're nuts enough to hardcore self-mutilate" exception - those are some of the very types we are protecting women from.

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## angelatc

> Hey!  Freaks are people, too.


Sure, and polite society demands pretending not to notice slight oddities.   But it also demands that we make some attempt to be normal.

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## presence

> I don't think that being messed up enough to cut one's own penis off should give any man the privilege of walking into a women's bathroom. It deserves nothing more than a one-way trip to the crazy house.
> 
> Those suffering from chromosomal problems aside, if you have a Y chromosome you belong in the men's bathroom, full stop. The point of segregated bathrooms is to protect women, and no sane man will yield on this responsibility. There is no "if you're nuts enough to hardcore self-mutilate" exception - those are some of the very types we are protecting women from.



Something tells me that wasn't a conversation finisher...

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## thoughtomator

It feels inevitable that someone will argue that a man cutting off his penis can be considered sane, doesn't it?

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## Brian4Liberty

> It feels inevitable that someone will argue that a man cutting off his penis can be considered sane, doesn't it?


What if they just cut a bit off?

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## Tpoints

> I don't think that being messed up enough to cut one's own penis off should give any man the privilege of walking into a women's bathroom. It deserves nothing more than a one-way trip to the crazy house.
> 
> Those suffering from chromosomal problems aside, if you have a Y chromosome you belong in the men's bathroom, full stop. The point of segregated bathrooms is to protect women, and no sane man will yield on this responsibility. There is no "if you're nuts enough to hardcore self-mutilate" exception - those are some of the very types we are protecting women from.


Protect women from what? gender equality?

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## Seraphim

errrrr the cock and balls are still intact?

Sorry buddy; you're a cross dresser with a cock. Not a woman.

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## Tpoints

> errrrr the cock and balls are still intact?
> 
> Sorry buddy; you're a cross dresser with a cock. Not a woman.


that doesn't help us when we want to get gays and lesbians out of our locker rooms.

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## presence

So how about a segregated platoon for LGBT in the military?

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## Seraphim

I dont care if a gay dude is in a men's locker room - he's still a dude.

But a supposedly transgendered "female" trying to get into a women's locker room, while there is a set of twig and berries - this is not right, to me.




> that doesn't help us when we want to get gays and lesbians out of our locker rooms.

----------


## Tpoints

> I dont care if a gay dude is in a men's locker room - he's still a dude.
> 
> But a supposedly transgendered "female" trying to get into a women's locker room, while there is a set of twig and berries - this is not right, to me.


so your problem is a person's genitals, not his desire and lust over you/people around him when they're in a locker room?

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## Seraphim

To be honest, a gay man is wired that way. No different then when you see a pretty girl and you enjoy the sight. It's harmless (so long as boundaries are respected). I'm comfortable enough with my manhood that if a gay guy sees my stomach and junk after I'm done my work out - I really don't care. 

My rule; don't touch and don't hit on me. I can deal with the first approach. Other than a select few morons (just like any group of people), most immediately back off once they know you aren't gay. 

Believe it or not, most gays are not lusting after you simply because you're a male. They'd rather shower, change and get out. JUST LIKE YOU.

Sure, there are irrational, bobble headed retards that are gay...but most of them are just everyday people who just wanna live in community like the rest of us.

Next, my problem isn't "genitals". That's ridiculous. My point was; if this transgendered "female" wants to be taken seriously as a woman, having a damn penis and ball-sack is not helping the cause. He could be a pervert just trying to get a peak at women and making false claims, ergo, NO to HIM being in the ladies washroom.

I'd much rather have that pervert in the men's locker room than in the women's locker room (don't be a troll and miscontrue that). I'm not saying women can't handle themselves, but in this sort of scenario, I'm more comfortable with men having to deal with the weirdo then women.




> so your problem is a person's genitals, not his desire and lust over you/people around him when they're in a locker room?

----------


## tod evans

My problem is politically correct bull$#@! don't hurt feelings with terminology.

I also have a problem with crossdressing ***** visiting opposite sex dressing rooms.

If the dressing room was unisex I'd have no problem with it but this is just more silly bull$#@! about acceptance.

I don't have to accept folks I don't like or agree with, and I expect the same in return.

----------


## truelies

it is a self-multilated pervert pure and simple- bar it from ALL public facilities.

----------


## thoughtomator

Eh, that's a bit extreme. They got the right to do whatever they want to themselves.

That said, they have no right whatsoever to demand other people accommodate their desires.

That's the principle of liberty.

----------


## Tpoints

> Eh, that's a bit extreme. They got the right to do whatever they want to themselves.
> 
> That said, they have no right whatsoever to demand other people accommodate their desires.
> 
> That's the principle of liberty.


so is this man/woman currently demanding accommodation?

----------


## Dr.3D

Thread title should be... "Man dressed as woman, told to leave women's locker room."

----------


## Seraphim

exactly. Lol.




> Thread title should be... "Man dressed as woman, told to leave women's locker room."

----------


## Tpoints

> exactly. Lol.


yep

----------


## presence

> *mod response to question:*not when it isn't* accurate                        *


talk to sailingaway....

I labelled the thread something like:

"man shows penis to 6 year old in girls locker room"

sailingaway is the one who put "transgender woman" up there and ixnayed my mention of the penis, to match the article's title; which is from a supposedly "conservative" CBS affiliate.  Back here in page nine, I'll be frank, and say that pervinawig needs jail time and some mandated therapy sessions.  


But its all in whatcha call it.   It is my thread, but it's her board, so I have to ask, SA can we change the OP title again from "transgender woman" to 



*Pervinawig Told to Leave Woman's Locker Room?

*isn't that* "accurate" ?
*

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Because ANYONE can put on a dress and a wig.  Having the penectomy shows sincerity.  It's a bright line test that weeds out any shenanigans.
> 
> But, as usual, the better answer is to not HAVE state-run facilities like this.


What if the man had his penis cut off by accident?

----------


## amy31416

> What if the man had his penis cut off by accident?


People roll their eyes at you a lot, don't they?

----------


## Dr.3D

> What if the man had his penis cut off by accident?


Then maybe if he wanted to make believe he was a woman, he would be somewhat more believable.
Of course it would help if he grew a nice pair of hooters too.

----------


## Confederate

Nobody wants to see a penis inside a girls/women's locker room.

----------


## Todd

> Thread title should be... "Man dressed as woman, told to leave women's locker room."


This^ for the truth and win.

----------


## Danke

> Nobody wants to see a penis inside a girls/women's locker room.


Not my experience.

----------


## presence

its the quickness

----------


## MelissaWV

> Not my experience.


Even when it's a locker room used by elementary-aged girls?

Nvm.  I seriously fear your answer.

----------


## anaconda

Had he had surgery? Not clear from the article.

----------


## presence

negative, penis before six year old

----------


## thoughtomator

By the way, if they haven't had the dick-cut-off surgery, they are not "transsexuals" they are "transvestites".

----------


## presence

pervwithnopeg ?

----------


## Confederate

> Not my experience.


But you're Nobody.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> Even when it's a locker room used by elementary-aged girls?
> 
> Nvm.  I seriously fear your answer.


Danke's locker rooms are filled with 40+ yo adults. And he generally has to fight his way out.

----------


## Danke

> Even when it's a locker room used by elementary-aged girls?
> 
> Nvm.  I seriously fear your answer.


I doubt a weird bi psycho chick has anything to fear in this world.

----------


## MelissaWV

> I doubt a weird bi psycho chick has anything to fear in this world.


I must have hit too close to the mark to inspire such a witty retort, I guess.

----------


## idiom

God forbid any of you ever encounter other cultures.

This is one of the saddest threads I have read on here in a long time.

The IOC can't define gender but the bigots on here can clear all that up in a few posts.

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> "Transgender woman" = mutilated male sex pervert and walking mental health disaster area


Seriously?

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> Devilling yet more...
> 
> What of the rights of physically-androgynous-intersex individuals (presumably many "transgender" people) to use a sexually segregated loo?
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency


+rep

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> No.  Keep both gender and sex separate and create a mental chart, I would expect a low standard deviation 3d bimodal bivariate bell curve.  Perhaps with a lower standard deviation on the sex scale, than on the gender scale; creating two modes with oval isolines, when viewed from the z.
> 
> 
> erg... I made a bunch of sense there but I can tell after re reading I'm burning the average readers statistical comprehension.
> 
> hrmmm.
> 
> So sex is going to have a bimodal distribution with sharp peaks.
> 
> ...

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> Hey!  Freaks are people, too.


Yes we are

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> I don't think that being messed up enough to cut one's own penis off should give any man the privilege of walking into a women's bathroom. It deserves nothing more than a one-way trip to the crazy house.
> 
> Those suffering from chromosomal problems aside, if you have a Y chromosome you belong in the men's bathroom, full stop. The point of segregated bathrooms is to protect women, and no sane man will yield on this responsibility. There is no "if you're nuts enough to hardcore self-mutilate" exception - those are some of the very types we are protecting women from.


Shouldn't we be worried about protecting men too? There's lots of crazy ass women out there.

Whatever happened to equality?

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> What if they just cut a bit off?


LOL!

Let's play a game called "Just The Tip"

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> Then maybe if he wanted to make believe he was a woman, he would be somewhat more believable.
> Of course it would help if he grew a nice pair of hooters too.


Every man should have a nice pair of hooters.

----------


## RickyJ

> Every man should have a nice pair of hooters.


Yep,  I am still searching for my nice pair.

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> negative, penis before six year old


See this type of info changes the thread COMPLETELY.

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> By the way, if they haven't had the dick-cut-off surgery, they are not "transsexuals" they are "transvestites".


You know they don't cut the dick off right?

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> Yep,  I am still searching for my nice pair.


Lol. Goodluck on your quest.

----------


## LibertyEagle

I can see our wonderful public school system has been hard at work.

----------


## thoughtomator

> You know they don't cut the dick off right?


I don't care what they do, really, up to the point where they think that whatever is going on in their heads gives them license to walk into the women's bathroom.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> this thread is disgusting. too much transphobia going on here...
> Aren't we suppose to be free thinking?


Not necessarily.  We can think whatever we want

----------


## Dr.3D

> this thread is disgusting. too much transphobia going on here...
> Aren't we suppose to be free thinking?


We are free thinking... we are free to think what we want about this situation.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> I don't think that being messed up enough to cut one's own penis off should give any man the privilege of walking into a women's bathroom. It deserves nothing more than a one-way trip to the crazy house.
> 
> Those suffering from chromosomal problems aside, if you have a Y chromosome you belong in the men's bathroom, full stop. The point of segregated bathrooms is to protect women, and no sane man will yield on this responsibility. There is no "if you're nuts enough to hardcore self-mutilate" exception - those are some of the very types we are protecting women from.


Agreed.

Also, one thing that nobody ever seems to mention is that, although there are many people suffering from chromosomal disorders, it does not "blur the lines" between male and female.  If someone has both, that ambiguates their gender, but it doesn't ambiguate the distinction between each gender.  If a toolbox normally comes out of the factory with a set of tools that determines it's work orientation, does it ambiguate the difference between the two different sets of tools if a few toolboxes have both?  Not necessarily.  

Like I said before, there are men who have had their penises chopped off without their consent for various morbid reasons, and there are men who had to have them removed for medical reasons, or it was an accident.  Just because someone who is obviously a male and doesn't have all the parts, that doesn't mean they can choose whichever restroom they want.  If a transgender walked into a men's restroom, I bet there would be less complaining from men.  Not that it's particularly attractive, but it's more acceptable.

----------


## Dr.3D

Seems the simple solution is to have what would be called the "Sexually ambiguous" restroom.   Anybody can use it and if there is a problem, they can accept it as part of what using that restroom represents.  They can then have the choice between being male, female or confused.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> People roll their eyes at you a lot, don't they?


It happens.  Don't deny it.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Then maybe if he wanted to make believe he was a woman, he would be somewhat more believable.
> Of course it would help if he grew a nice pair of hooters too.


Have you ever heard of the boy whose parents took him to get circumcised, and they burned his penis off?  They tried to make him into a girl (easier to dig a hole than build a pole), and they failed miserably, eventually having to tell him what happened.  He decided to live as a male, got a wife, a job, some surgery.  His twin brother killed himself after which he lost his job, his wife left him, and he was scammed out of his life's savings.  He committed suicide when he was 38.  There are people who have their penises cut off by accident.  Don't believe me?  Google is your friend.

----------


## presence

> although there are many people suffering from chromosomal disorders, it does not "blur the lines" between male and female.
> []
> If a toolbox normally comes out of the factory with a set of tools that determines it's work orientation, does it ambiguate the difference between the two different sets of tools if a few toolboxes have both?


That's actually a fallacy.  *Nobody has both* unless they were born as some form of conjoined twin.  Genetic abnormalities are more along the lines of "kinda like a weiner, kinda like a cooter; somewhere in between"; it does indeed "blur the line".


see post 43:  http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post4711326

----------


## thoughtomator

Individuals with gender issues need to work it out for themselves and not drag the rest of society into it.

Also, I think some here are severely underestimating how many men would dress as women and pretend to be transsexual in order to peep on women in the bathroom. Male sexuality is pretty hardcore $#@! and women should not have to deal with it while taking a piss.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> God forbid any of you ever encounter other cultures.
> 
> This is one of the saddest threads I have read on here in a long time.
> 
> The IOC can't define gender but the bigots on here can clear all that up in a few posts.


That is often the case, yes.

----------


## Dr.3D

> Have you ever heard of the boy whose parents took him to get circumcised, and they burned his penis off?  They tried to make him into a girl (easier to dig a hole than build a pole), and they failed miserably, eventually having to tell him what happened.  He decided to live as a male, got a wife, a job, some surgery.  His twin brother killed himself after which he lost his job, his wife left him, and he was scammed out of his life's savings.  He committed suicide when he was 38.  There are people who have their penises cut off by accident.  Don't believe me?  Google is your friend.


Just what does that have to do with wanting to make believe he is a woman?   Sounds to me like this guy didn't want to make believe he was a woman.
So he lost his penis... that didn't make him into a woman did it?

----------


## thoughtomator

By the way, the simple straightforward solution is "if there is any doubt whatsoever, use the men's room". Gender segregated bathrooms are instituted to protect women.

----------


## presence

http://www.brandeis.edu/ethics/ethic.../2012/May.html
*The Ethics of Gender-Segregated Bathrooms*

----------


## presence

> By the way, the simple straightforward solution is "if there is any doubt whatsoever, use the men's room". Gender segregated bathrooms are instituted to protect women.


 


> Of course, it  would be essential that bathrooms designated “women” be available for  use by gender variant and trans women as well as women who are not  trans-identified.


http://www.makezine.enoughenough.org/ujcbathrooms.html

----------


## presence

> I pity your children, growing up with some bitter hag as their mother.


-rep, ad hominem attack on another member

----------


## thoughtomator

> Of course, it would be essential that bathrooms designated “women” be available for use by gender variant and trans women as well as women who are not trans-identified.


Ah, now we get to the heart of the matter.

Problem is, since "gender identity" is in their heads, for every person who is genuinely confused about the matter there will be twenty who claim to be for the purpose of getting access to the women's bathroom.

The whole point of having a women's bathroom is to deter that access.

The solution I propose solves the problem of where a person confused for any reason should go (to the men's room), but of course it contains the not-mysteriously unacceptable provision that women's safety and privacy is respected.

People talk about a war on women, well here it is.

By the way, I will not be explicit here, but if you want to get your eyes opened a bit, go google "man in women's bathroom" and poke through some news articles - it is basically a litany of the behaviors that gender segregated bathrooms exist to protect women from.

----------


## S.Shorland



----------


## John F Kennedy III

> By the way, the simple straightforward solution is "if there is any doubt whatsoever, use the men's room". Gender segregated bathrooms are instituted to protect women.


Why do women need to be protected?

----------


## thoughtomator

> Why do women need to be protected?


Google "man in women's bathroom" as I said before and you will see. The variety of ways in which such a situation would be taken advantage of for sexual purposes is virtually endless.

----------


## jmdrake

This simple little invention would have prevented the whole thing.  It's called a towel.

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> Google "man in women's bathroom" as I said before and you will see. The variety of ways in which such a situation would be taken advantage of for sexual purposes is virtually endless.


I don't see why women need to be protected anymore than men do.

Whatever happened to equality?

----------


## MelissaWV

> See this type of info changes the thread COMPLETELY.


It was part of the OP.  If I wasn't clear earlier, this is where I hit the brakes as well --- and not based on gender.

Why are little girls and grown adults (of any gender) who are not their parents using the same locker/shower area hmm.

----------


## thoughtomator

> I don't see why women need to be protected anymore than men do.
> 
> Whatever happened to equality?


If you took 15 seconds to use Google like I asked you to do twice, it would be immediately apparent that women face sexual predation that men do not face. Why are you playing dumb?

----------


## presence

> Why are little girls and grown adults (of any gender) who are not their parents using the same locker/shower area hmm.


So now we need four of each mandated?  Men's room Women's room, Boys room, and Girls room


Anyone ever notice when porta-potties are lined up at the concert at the county fair, the situation is ALWAYS unisex; private locked individual stalls?  Aside from the piss on the bowl which we all hate, and the portapottie smell, it works just fine.

but you put a roof over those private locked individual stalls...
you put up a divider wall...
fence each side in and privide seperate entrances...

now everything is all $#@!ed up

----------


## LibertyEagle

> I don't see why women need to be protected anymore than men do.
> 
> Whatever happened to equality?


Once upon a time, men used to be protective of women.  It was rather born into them to be so.  But, that was back when men were men.

----------


## Danke

> Once upon a time, men used to be protective of women.  It was rather born into them to be so.  But, that was back when men were men.


That's government's job.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> So now we need four of each mandated?  Men's room Women's room, Boys room, and Girls room


No, apparently we need a Men's, a Women's and an "Other" for those not fitting into either of the aforementioned.

----------


## MelissaWV

> No, apparently we need a Men's, a Women's and an "Other" for those not fitting into either of the aforementioned.


This was put into place years ago at most places.  They are "family" bathrooms to facilitate people with small children of the other gender.

----------


## MelissaWV

> So now we need four of each mandated?  Men's room Women's room, Boys room, and Girls room
> 
> 
> Anyone ever notice when porta-potties are lined up at the concert at the county fair, the situation is ALWAYS unisex; private locked individual stalls?  Aside from the piss on the bowl which we all hate, and the portapottie smell, it works just fine.
> 
> but you put a roof over those private locked individual stalls...
> you put up a divider wall...
> fence each side in and privide seperate entrances...
> 
> now everything is all $#@!ed up


See above.  There are family/unisex bathrooms all over the place where I live.

Those are not LOCKER ROOMS with LARGE OPEN SHOWER AREAS, or do you not understand the difference between peeing in a stall and showering a few feet from another naked human being, or sitting in a sauna with them?  




> Colleen Francis was* using the sauna* in a women’s locker room inside the recreation center at the school late in September.

----------


## presence

eh, I get where they're coming from but I've also lived the coed communal thing for a moment, different strokes.

But if we're going to be prude, why not have shower stalls?

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> If you took 15 seconds to use Google like I asked you to do twice, it would be immediately apparent that women face sexual predation that men do not face. Why are you playing dumb?


I'm not playing dumb. I do not favor one group over the other. Men face abuse, death and sexual predation from women as well. It just isn't talked about or reported as much.

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> Once upon a time, men used to be protective of women.  It was rather born into them to be so.  But, that was back when men were men.


I'm not protective of anyone based on their sex. I do not support making women the lesser sex.

----------


## amy31416

> It happens.  Don't deny it.


Frequently with good reason, I'd wager.

----------


## amy31416

> I'm not protective of anyone based on their sex. I do not support making women the lesser sex.


It doesn't make someone lesser to be protected. My father protected me more than he did my brother because it was reasonable and sometimes necessary. More importantly, he taught us both how to protect ourselves--and what he taught me was different because I will always have a physical disadvantage vs. most men.

----------


## adisongrace

Well this thread sure went crazy directions....

I only want to touch on the most recent post...piggybacking on JFKIII's 
comments:

-Sex war(s) are useless. Women are equal to Men. Plain & Simple. 
Our society pushes for these "damsel in distress" situations & 
it does nothing but create conflict. It is not a man's place to "save"
a woman. Or vice versa. True independence is won within yourself..

----------


## tod evans

Along those same lines I believe it to be inappropriate for either sex to be using the others public shower facilities regardless of what's going on in their head.

----------


## adisongrace

> Along those same lines I believe it to be inappropriate for either sex to be using the others public shower facilities regardless of what's going on in their head.


Well what about those transgendered women/men who don't feel safe using 
"traditional" restrooms? Do we just say $#@! you to their right to feel safe?

----------


## John F Kennedy III

What about people who are born with a fully functioning penis with testicles and sperm grown over a fully functioning uteris and vagina?

----------


## thoughtomator

> What about people who are born with a fully functioning penis with testicles and sperm grown over a fully functioning uteris and vagina?


If we're making a list, we need to add Siamese twins where the twins are of different genders.

----------


## amy31416

> Well what about those transgendered women/men who don't feel safe using 
> "traditional" restrooms? Do we just say $#@! you to their right to feel safe?


That's the thing to me--there are some places where using the men's restroom might get a tranny's ass kicked. Of course, there was that case in some ghetto where a tranny (yeah, not PC, don't know/don't care) got her ass kicked for using a women's restroom though--by women. The only person who stepped in was a little old lady.

Not sure if there's a good solution. But I am sure that beating and humiliating a person isn't part of a civilized answer to what is usually a non-issue.

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> It doesn't make someone lesser to be protected. My father protected me more than he did my brother because it was reasonable and sometimes necessary. More importantly, he taught us both how to protect ourselves--and what he taught me was different because I will always have a physical disadvantage vs. most men.


Awesome. As long as it isn't expected or required it's fine with me.

----------


## thoughtomator

> Well what about those transgendered women/men who don't feel safe using 
> "traditional" restrooms? Do we just say $#@! you to their right to feel safe?


Well, that's basically what you are doing to women as a whole when you give permission for males to enter their bathrooms. If you have a problem with that, as I do, then you're on the wrong side of the argument.

----------


## adisongrace

> What about people who are born with a fully functioning penis with testicles and sperm grown over a fully functioning uteris and vagina?



*dun dun DUN!*

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> Well this thread sure went crazy directions....
> 
> I only want to touch on the most recent post...piggybacking on JFKIII's 
> comments:
> 
> -Sex war(s) are useless. Women are equal to Men. Plain & Simple. 
> Our society pushes for these "damsel in distress" situations & 
> it does nothing but create conflict. It is not a man's place to "save"
> a woman. Or vice versa. True independence is won within yourself..


Absolutely this ^

----------


## amy31416

> Awesome. As long as it isn't expected or required it's fine with me.


Nope, I expect that most people wouldn't help--but I'm a pretty cynical mofo. I do hope that if you had a gf you wouldn't, at least, let her get beaten by some guy. Hell, I tried to help out a woman that I just drove by because it looked like a guy she was arguing with was getting overly physical with her.

----------


## adisongrace

> Well, that's basically what you are doing to women as a whole when you give permission for males to enter their bathrooms. If you have a problem with that, as I do, then you're on the wrong side of the argument.


that's your opinion...everyone deserves the right to use public bathrooms 
in an environment that does not incite conflict.

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> If we're making a list, we need to add Siamese twins where the twins are of different genders.


And we would need to further detail that situation. Were they separated? Who got what parts after the separation?

----------


## presence

> that's your opinion...everyone deserves the right to use public bathrooms 
> in an environment that does not incite conflict.


perhaps this individual wasn't looking to incite conflict?

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> Nope, I expect that most people wouldn't help--but I'm a pretty cynical mofo. I do hope that if you had a gf you wouldn't, at least, let her get beaten by some guy. Hell, I tried to help out a woman that I just drove by because it looked like a guy she was arguing with was getting overly physical with her.


The guy would be lucky to wake up in the hospital. I'm naturally protective of people around me, especially friends etc.

----------


## adisongrace

> perhaps this individual wasn't looking to incite conflict?


It's two very different situations entirely. Ostracizing one out of a bathroom
solely on the basis of birth sex is unjust. 

This reminds me of the Milk/Briggs debate in the 70's... 
Who labels who as TG?  Who will be devising that formula to kick TG citizens out of restrooms?

----------


## Tpoints

> No, apparently we need a Men's, a Women's and an "Other" for those not fitting into either of the aforementioned.


is it better to have just 2? or just 1?

----------


## Danke

> that's your opinion...everyone deserves the right to use public bathrooms 
> in an environment that does not incite conflict.


As long as I get a reach-around.

----------


## presence

> It's two very different situations entirely. Ostracizing one out of a bathroom
> solely on the basis of birth sex is unjust.


So are you saying any man that thinks he's a woman should be allowed to expose himherself in the woman's loo?

----------


## adisongrace

> So are you saying any man that thinks he's a woman should be allowed to expose himherself in the woman's loo?


TBH I don't think any human being actually trying to do their business 
is even concerned with looking at another person's genitalia.  


NOW...Are you saying that all TG's are just concerned with exposing themselves? Because that sounds a little too much like scapegoating to me..

----------


## MelissaWV

> It's two very different situations entirely. *Ostracizing one out of a bathroom*solely on the basis of birth sex is unjust. 
> 
> This reminds me of the Milk/Briggs debate in the 70's... 
> Who labels who as TG?  Who will be devising that formula to kick TG citizens out of restrooms?


Is there a sauna in our bathroom, or are you being deliberately obtuse?  lol

----------


## adisongrace

> As long as I get a reach-around.


LMAO. Nice. I'm sure there a plenty of Gay FTM's that would do just that.

----------


## adisongrace

> Is there a sauna in our bathroom, or are you being deliberately obtuse?  lol


I don't understand what is so "obtuse" about restrooms...
You do your business without question, let them do theirs..

----------


## tod evans

> Well what about those transgendered women/men who don't feel safe using 
> "traditional" restrooms? Do we just say $#@! you to their right to feel safe?


Absolutely, unless you want to institute a movement to have public buildings install a third or fourth separate area for them so they may feel "safe".

$#@! a bunch of coddling the weirdos. 

There are men and women, if somebody doesn't like their gender it's their problem not mine, not yours and certainly not anyone elses.

----------


## truelies

> Well what about those transgendered women/men who don't feel safe using 
> "traditional" restrooms? Do we just say $#@! you to their right to feel safe?


Real women/men should not have to bow to the whims/irrational feelings of self-mutiliating fools.

----------


## presence

pre emptive strike

This Sam Adam's brush fire franchise is dangerous business.

----------


## adisongrace

> Absolutely, unless you want to institute a movement to have public buildings install a third or fourth separate area for them so they may feel "safe".
> 
> $#@! a bunch of coddling the weirdos. 
> 
> There are men and women, if somebody doesn't like their gender it's their problem not mine, not yours and certainly not anyone elses.


This is exactly where hypocrisy of the proposed "liberty," and transphobia meet. 
It's really none of your business what they do/don't do. So if we all minded our own businessmen and 
stop calling people freaks we'd be progressing...NOT DIGRESSING.

----------


## adisongrace

> Real women/men should not have to bow to the whims/irrational feelings of self-mutiliating fools.


How do you know they are fools? Have you lived their lives? 
No. Once again we all need to just mind our own business & move on.

Is it your body? No? Then move on, it doesn't effect you.

----------


## MelissaWV

> I don't understand what is so "obtuse" about restrooms...
> You do your business without question, let them do theirs..


Do you have any idea how silly this sounds, considering the article was about someone lounging around in a sauna?

----------


## tod evans

> This is exactly where hypocrisy of the proposed "liberty," and transphobia meet. 
> It's really none of your business what they do/don't do. So if we all minded our own businessmen and 
> stop calling people freaks we'd be progressing...NOT DIGRESSING.


And how is expecting each person to deal with their own genders changing room digressing in any way?

If somebody has issues with their gender it's their problem not everyone else in the rooms.

----------


## presence

If anything Mel, now you're being too 'acute'; clearly there is a bigger issue.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> That's the thing to me--there are some places where using the men's restroom might get a tranny's ass kicked. Of course, there was that case in some ghetto where a tranny (yeah, not PC, don't know/don't care) got her ass kicked for using a women's restroom though--by women. The only person who stepped in was a little old lady.
> 
> Not sure if there's a good solution. But I am sure that beating and humiliating a person isn't part of a civilized answer to what is usually a non-issue.


If a transgender person can not pass without question, they should seek out individual facilities.

In this case, these girls probably just used the bathroom as an excuse after the fact. It appears that is was more about a boyfriend, and a desire to beat up the person rather than about the bathroom.

----------


## adisongrace

> And how is expecting each person to deal with their own genders changing room digressing in any way?
> 
> If somebody has issues with their gender it's their problem not everyone else in the rooms.


No matter what race, sex, gender, culture or orientation...denying someone the liberty they deserve 
is counter productive.

----------


## MelissaWV

> If anything Mel, now you're being too 'acute'; clearly there is a bigger issue.


Not really.  I don't see people proposing there be a genital check at bathrooms.  There are stalls already.  There's no issue.  Even if a guy decided to go into a ladies' restroom, not dressed obviously as a guy, then he'd be able to do his business in a stall and no one would care.  There are also already family bathrooms.  So the issue of "let them pee in peace" doesn't seem at all relevant.  All of that already exists.

----------


## adisongrace

> Not really.  I don't see people proposing there be a genital check at bathrooms.  There are stalls already.  There's no issue.  Even if a guy decided to go into a ladies' restroom, not dressed obviously as a guy, then he'd be able to do his business in a stall and no one would care.  There are also already family bathrooms.  So the issue of "let them pee in peace" doesn't seem at all relevant.  All of that already exists.


That was the point I was making earlier...If we allow this type of abuse of power to apply to TG citizen's 

Who determines who to be "organic" sex and who determines who is TG? 
What are the repercussions of this action? More regulation is not the answer.
Just go on with your day it really shouldn't be an issue who uses the restroom...

Whether you pass or don't pass it's your right to piss in peace.

----------


## tod evans

> No matter what race, sex, gender, culture or orientation...denying someone the liberty they deserve 
> is counter productive.


Where in your mind does one persons liberty stop and anothers begin?

I could actually get behind having unisex bathrooms/showers/saunas in addition to men and womans but not instead of.

I consider "transgender" folks weird, as in not normal, and I would choose to avoid them, however if you'd like to be around them I'm cool with that too.

Liberty in my mind isn't forcing my beliefs on another and I won't have theirs forced on me, so a logical solution seems that a third rest area might be in order.

----------


## adisongrace

> Where in your mind does one persons liberty stop and anothers begin?
> 
> I could actually get behind having unisex bathrooms/showers/saunas in addition to men and womans but not instead of.
> 
> I consider "transgender" folks weird, as in not normal, and I would choose to avoid them, however if you'd like to be around them I'm cool with that too.
> 
> Liberty in my mind isn't forcing my beliefs on another and I won't have theirs forced on me, so a logical solution seems that a third rest area might be in order.


What your suggesting is not freedom. If you have a problem with their sex...dont look....is that too much to ask to be discreet? 
I know I don't go around showing my lady parts to everyone I sit at sauna with.

----------


## amy31416

> If a transgender person can not pass without question, they should seek out individual facilities.
> 
> In this case, these girls probably just used the bathroom as an excuse after the fact. It appears that is was more about a boyfriend, and a desire to beat up the person rather than about the bathroom.


Generally whenever someone beats the hell out of another person, it's not about a bathroom or a person's use of it. I can't even imagine that my response to a tranny's use of the women's bathroom while I was using it (even if it did cause me discomfort) would be to beat them--so you're likely right about the boyfriend thing. (They might want to question the boyfriend if they think a tranny is a threat.) I might just be a bit startled, then move on. Of course, I generally don't check out people in public restrooms, I'm checking out the restroom and picking the least gross stall farthest away from any other person that might be using it. 

Minding your own business--what a concept.

----------


## presence

Perhaps we outlaw sex segregated communal showers?

----------


## tod evans

> What your suggesting is not freedom. If you have a problem with their sex...dont look....is that too much to ask to be discreet? 
> I know I don't go around showing my lady parts to everyone I sit at sauna with.


My understanding of this particular issue is that it took place in the presence of minors, as an adult who is responsible for a minor I would have an issue with the behavior described. 

I've also offered a solution that could accommodate those with issues and your rebuttal is "don't look"?

I'm sorry but I will not have my child in that type of environment.

----------


## adisongrace

> My understanding of this particular issue is that it took place in the presence of minors, as an adult who is responsible for a minor I would have an issue with the behavior described. 
> 
> I've also offered a solution that could accommodate those with issues and your rebuttal is "don't look"?
> 
> I'm sorry but I will not have my child in that type of environment.


Segregation is never the answer! 
Why in the world would we need more regulation...

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> As long as I get a reach-around.


Somebody better get a reach-around out of this.

----------


## tod evans

> Segregation is never the answer! 
> Why in the world would we need more regulation...


Now you're bringing up segregation and regulations, please stop trying to twist what I say to suit an agenda. 

The segregation is men/women, if the weirdos don't like it then I'd be willing to permit them their own area, but quite frankly if I ever see that type of behavior ie; naked transexuals parading around in front of me in a mens room I'll put some knots on their head and if they do it in front of my daughter there'll be more than knots.

I don't abide by this NAP some here expound and if the weirdos can't behave themselves in public they deserve what they get.

I am certainly _not_ promoting any regulations or legislation!

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> Absolutely, unless you want to institute a movement to have public buildings install a third or fourth separate area for them so they may feel "safe".
> 
> $#@! a bunch of coddling the weirdos. 
> 
> There are men and women, if somebody doesn't like their gender it's their problem not mine, not yours and certainly not anyone elses.


Who is a weirdo?

----------


## thoughtomator

> that's your opinion...everyone deserves the right to use public bathrooms in an environment that does not incite conflict.


The incitement to conflict (a public issue) is the man who wants to go into the women's bathroom. Before happens, conflict exists only in the mind of the person who has lived however many years of life without figuring out a reasonable way to go to the bathroom in public places. This is their own personal issue and does not become a public issue before they break the extremely strong (and voluntary among everyone else) social taboo against men going into the women's bathroom.




> And we would need to further detail that situation. Were they separated? Who got what parts after the separation?


No, the point is you don't force a compulsory rearrangement of the voluntary self-organization of society in order to satisfy every edge case. People with special needs have to make their own accommodations, not compel - by force - the rest of the society to accommodate them.

The feelings of the transwhatever creature do not take precedence over the feelings of everyone else. 

Now, if someone wants to indulge this nonsense with their _own_ money in a voluntary fashion, go for it. This state-imposed crap is for tyrants. The clear will of the people on this issue is that men not be permitted in women's restrooms.

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> Do you have any idea how silly this sounds, considering the article was about someone lounging around in a sauna?


I think it's clear this thread has multiple discussions going. At least one being different than the OP.

----------


## MelissaWV

> I think it's clear this thread has multiple discussions going. At least one being different than the OP.


I specifically brought up the sauna thing, then was told I want to keep TG people from peeing.  That's how great this thread is going.

----------


## thoughtomator

> I specifically brought up the sauna thing, then was told I want to keep TG people from peeing.  That's how great this thread is going.


In my experience, the only way to effectively deal with conditioned behavior is with a sledgehammer.

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> I specifically brought up the sauna thing, then was told I want to keep TG people from peeing.  That's how great this thread is going.


I noticed. I'm confused. This might be the biggest cluster$#@! of a thread I've seen on RPF.

*shrugs*

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Generally whenever someone beats the hell out of another person, it's not about a bathroom or a person's use of it. I can't even imagine that my response to a tranny's use of the women's bathroom while I was using it (even if it did cause me discomfort) would be to beat them--so you're likely right about the boyfriend thing. (They might want to question the boyfriend if they think a tranny is a threat.) I might just be a bit startled, then move on. Of course, I generally don't check out people in public restrooms, I'm checking out the restroom and picking the least gross stall farthest away from any other person that might be using it. 
> *
> Minding your own business--what a concept*.


MYOB?  We don't DO that in 'Merica.

----------


## tod evans

> Who is a weirdo?


The naked tranny in the OP.

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> The naked tranny in the OP.


I agree.

----------


## adisongrace

> The naked tranny in the OP.


That was a guy in a wig...not a *transgendered* citizen. Get your facts straight. 

Secondly you *were* asking for segregation. In which happens to require more regulation. I am not pushing any agenda...I just believe in  RIGHTS FOR ALL! 
Just  because you don't agree with the TG community doesn't mean the rights aren't the same.

----------


## presence

edit to op:

Edit to topic:

This op is open to discuss the two above articles, the rights of  transgender people to use the bathroom or undress in a dressing room  that matches their gender identity but not their equipment, we're  discussing physical androgeny in refrence to these issues, as well as  the various design of facilities which would avoid this whole issue, the  social structures which would improve this issue, the culture clash of  the majority culture vs transgender community, and finally this  particular pervinawig's right to show his penis to a 6 year old.  If you  can tie something to any of those topics and they don't scare you off  outright, please join in... we're somewhere beyond page 20.

----------


## tod evans

> That was a guy in a wig...not a *transgendered* citizen. Get your facts straight. 
> 
> Secondly you *were* asking for segregation. In which happens to require more regulation. I am not pushing any agenda...I just believe in  RIGHTS FOR ALL! 
> Just  because you don't agree with the TG community doesn't mean the rights aren't the same.


No lady, I proposed a method to attempt to accommodate the weirdos, I was wrong.

There is no need for me to make allowances, bring 'em on.

----------


## presence

Lots of views, is there a liberty candidate I can put a banner for in the op?  I'm thinking Justin Amash is the wrong one.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Awesome. As long as it isn't expected or required it's fine with me.


The sad thing is that it should be expected.  Any man who wouldn't, at least in my opinion, belongs in that "Other" bathroom that I mentioned up above.  Because they clearly are lacking the equipment that makes them a man.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> That was a guy in a wig...not a *transgendered* citizen. Get your facts straight. 
> 
> Secondly you *were* asking for segregation. In which happens to require more regulation. I am not pushing any agenda...I just believe in  RIGHTS FOR ALL! 
> Just  because you don't agree with the TG community doesn't mean the rights aren't the same.


If you have male equipment, go in the men's room.  If you have female equipment, go in the women's room.  

If you want something other than that, I suppose this is where the free market comes in.  I suppose you could setup a transgendered rest stop, if you thought there was a market for it.

----------


## adisongrace

> If you have male equipment, go in the men's room.  If you have female equipment, go in the women's room.  
> 
> If you want something other than that, I suppose this is where the free market comes in.  I suppose you could setup a transgendered rest stop, if you thought there was a market for it.


That's not at all taking into account the safety of the individual. 
Why should a TG woman enter a MENS restroom when they do not
align with that sex? All for your peace of mind....When in reality the
concerns over TG using are *very* unrealistic & are
used to scapegoat the trans community.

----------


## thoughtomator

> That's not at all taking into account the safety of the individual. 
> Why should a TG woman enter a MENS restroom when they do not
> align with that sex? All for your peace of mind....When in reality the
> concerns over TG using are *very* unrealistic & are
> used to scapegoat the trans community.


Because calling it a woman doesn't make it one.

----------


## adisongrace

> No lady, I proposed a method to attempt to accommodate the weirdos, I was wrong.
> 
> There is no need for me to make allowances, bring 'em on.


Easily the trans community could scapegoat you and force you to go specific "normal"
restrooms far away from public...but would that be fair? No. It's not fair on either end...

----------


## adisongrace

> Because calling it a woman doesn't make it one.


That's nothing more than transphobia. You obviously are brainwashed...

----------


## LibertyEagle

> That's not at all taking into account the safety of the individual. 
> Why should a TG woman enter a MENS restroom when they do not
> align with that sex?


Are you serious?  Going to the bathroom is about what equipment you have.  Not your state of mind.




> All for your peace of mind....When in reality the
> concerns over TG using are *very* unrealistic & are
> used to scapegoat the trans community.


No one is scapegoating anyone.  You are wanting special rights for individuals who desire to use a restroom other than for the sex they are.  Since Family Restrooms now exist, they even have a 3rd option.

----------


## adisongrace

> Are you serious?  Going to the bathroom is about what equipment you have.  Not your state of mind.
> 
> 
> 
> No one is scapegoating anyone.  You are wanting special rights for individuals who desire to use a restroom other than for the sex they are.  Since Family Restrooms now exist, they even have a 3rd option.


It's not a just a state of mind.... What about those *with* an intersex condition that
were born with ambiguous genitalia... where are they to go? 3rd option is utilized by many but still 
is a form of  gender segregation.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> It's not a just a state of mind.... What about those *with* an intersex condition that
> were born with ambiguous genitalia... where are they to go?


They have 3 choices.  Any of them would do.  The only problem would be if they wanted to walk around sharing their "ambiguous genitalia". 




> 3rd option is utilized by many but still 
> is a form of  gender segregation.


Oh sheesh.  What the hell are you wanting?  A transgender bathroom, or what?

This is beyond f'ing ridiculous.  No wonder our country is in the trashbin.

----------


## FrankRep

> The only problem would be if they wanted to walk around sharing their "ambiguous genitalia".


I Googled "ambiguous genitalia." I'm now scarred for life. Thanks Internet.

----------


## Tpoints

> I Googled "ambiguous genitalia." I'm now scarred for life. Thanks Internet.


Curiosity DID kill the cat, before it landed on Mars.

----------


## Tpoints

> That's not at all taking into account the safety of the individual. 
> Why should a TG woman enter a MENS restroom when they do not
> align with that sex? All for your peace of mind....When in reality the
> concerns over TG using are *very* unrealistic & are
> used to scapegoat the trans community.


Calling us transphobic and brainwashed doesn't do anything either. You say "all for your peace of mind" as if the other side wants or gets more than that. What is the worst that can happen if a TG or otherwise "unaligned" woman enters uses the men's room?

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> It's not a just a state of mind.... What about those *with* an intersex condition that
> were born with ambiguous genitalia... where are they to go? 3rd option is utilized by many but still 
> is a form of  gender segregation.


Having seperate bathrooms for males and females is gender segregation.

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> I Googled "ambiguous genitalia." I'm now scarred for life. Thanks Internet.


Lol. Any double penises or vaginas?

----------


## AlexAmore

> I'm gonna leave this one up to the property owner.


This should have ended the entire debate. 

I'll admit I only read a few pages, however I can't see how anything can trump this line of reasoning. If the property owner is the state then that is the problem we should be discussing if we want to get to the root of the problem.

Segregation is fine if it's on private property.

----------


## BamaAla

If I'm a transphobe for thinking this guy should have been taken out back and beaten senseless, then color me transphobic. Seriously, this dude is a demented pervert not a martyr.

----------


## AlexAmore

> If I'm a transphobe for thinking this guy should have been taken out back and beaten senseless, then color me transphobic. Seriously, this dude is a demented pervert not a martyr.


You're not a transphobe, you're just from Alabama...#1 in incest!

We understand.

----------


## Original_Intent

And they talk about us going back to the 1950's as if that would be a bad thing....

----------


## tod evans

> Easily the trans community could scapegoat you and force you to go specific "normal"
> restrooms far away from public...but would that be fair? No. It's not fair on either end...


I am NOT going to even try to account for people with gender issues, I attempted to be diplomatic and suggested unisex locker-rooms but that wasn't good enough for you.

I'm very comfortable stating that neither my family nor myself will ever live in close enough proximity to a man that prances around naked in the girls locker-room and if such things as accepting unisex locker-rooms are perceived as an open door policy that solicit such behavior then I was wrong to suggest it.

You obviously mistake me for someone who wants to be "fair"..........I'm not! 

I want to surround myself with people who think and act in manners I find acceptable.

I will never push for legislation that prescribes sexual behavior because I believe it is up to the individual families in the community to staunchly enforce their beliefs NOT the executive branch of any government.

"Fair" to a community I participate in does not include excusing grown men prancing around naked in front of 6y/o girls while claiming they're confused about their gender. That is most definitely NOT fair to the little girl and your suggestion earlier that she should "look the other way" and "mind her own business" is abhorrent to me.

If you choose to live in a community that accepts such behavior then that is between your community and you. This is only one of the many reasons I do not want the federal government involved in legislating acceptance or equality or whatever you call it when laws are passed on a national level granting subsets of the population the right to practice behaviors a local community finds offensive.

I am a man who finds a grown man naked in a school locker room with a 6y/o girl wrong and unlike the folks involved in this incident I would not call either the cops or the news paper, the matter would be dealt with on the spot. And in my community that would be acceptable.

----------


## thoughtomator

> That's nothing more than transphobia. You obviously are brainwashed...


Yeah I'm $#@!ing brainwashed for thinking a man who calls himself a woman is not a woman. 

Next you'll tell me a limousine liberal becomes "severely conservative" when you slap an R on him and that I'm a Massophobe for disagreeing.

----------


## presence

*As the OP, 
*

I respectfully request we find another way to express ourselves without the term "transphobe"

See my comments here:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post4700298

..in the last LGBT thread which saw 2 forum members get banned and was buried in "hot topics" after reaching about this many pages.  I'd like to keep this thread public if at all possible.  I invested time in developing hyper linked content and this is clearly an issue which needs to be aired out.




> You obviously are brainwashed...





> you're just from Alabama...#1 in incest! We understand.


  -rep ad hominem x2, abrasive and bitchy *comments* which add nothing to the cause of liberty.

See:


*Rev9 Banned Again... What did he do this time* 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ht=rev9+banned


You are such a = fail   




> + No insulting, antagonizing or personally attacking other users.
> 
> -JoshLowry, Señor Admin


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...nt-Information

----------


## presence

..

----------


## AlexAmore

> *As the OP, 
> *
> 
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post4700298
> 
>   -rep ad hominem x2, abrasive and bitchy *comments* which add nothing to the cause of liberty.
> 
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...nt-Information


I'm not the one wishing for a man who to be taken out and beaten senseless. It was clearly offensive and I gave it back to him.

----------


## presence

Give it back to the idea, not the member. The member didn't attack YOU.  You attacked HIM.

You have a right, as a member on this board not to be personally attacked.  You can't expect not to be offended; this is an innately offensive topic with widely divergent views.

By all means, I agree we should not devolve to Armenian Blood Feuds, but I don't need to attack members to state that.




> It was clearly offensive and *I gave it back to him*.


Send a PM to Rev9 and ask how that went for him.




> _My job is to smack abrasives bitches  upside the head._  - Rev9, Banned

----------


## presence

> *Rosa Louise McCauley Parks* (February 4, 1913 – October 24, 2005) was an African-American civil rights activist, whom the U.S. Congress called "the first lady of civil rights", and "the mother of the freedom movement".[1]
> 
>  On December 1, 1955, in Montgomery, Alabama, Parks refused to obey bus driver James F. Blake's order that she give up her seat in the colored section to a white passenger, after the white section was filled.
> []
>  She acted as a private citizen "tired of giving in".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Parks

What of "Francis" in light of honest civil disobedience rather than being a *lewd and lascivious* "pervinawig"?

----------


## presence

> If I'm a transphobe for thinking this guy *should have been* taken out back and beaten senseless, then color me transphobic. Seriously, this dude is a demented pervert not a martyr.


 _Brandenburg v. Ohio_ (1969)

"Should have been" is very close to a "should be".  I advise caution.

----------


## tod evans

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Parks
> 
> What of "Francis" in light of honest civil disobedience rather than being a *lewd and lascivious* "pervinawig"?


Nice twist, I'm not falling for it.

The SOB was naked in front of some 6y/o girl and I'm just not going to accept that he's _"special"_ because he says so.

----------


## adisongrace

> Nice twist, I'm not falling for it.
> 
> The SOB was naked in front of some 6y/o girl and I'm just not going to accept that he's _"special"_ because he says so.


I am going to remain on topic, despite your ignorant and arrogant comments....

This guy that was dressed in a wig that exposed himself is not a TG. He was a sex crazed lunatic in a wig. Does he deserve to be beat? No. 
However to say that TG's aren't in every day society is asnine. They are there living their lives out in the open...whether you accept them or not
is your choice, but they still deserve the same rights as every other *man* or *woman*. There doesn't need to be more regulation, more tax payer money and more segregation to suit how you feel about their existence.

----------


## tod evans

Practice reading there young lady, post #224 is pretty clear about my feelings regarding regulations and tax-payer expense. 




> I am going to remain on topic, despite your ignorant and arrogant comments....
> 
> This guy that was dressed in a wig that exposed himself is not a TG. He was a sex crazed lunatic in a wig. Does he deserve to be beat? No. 
> However to say that TG's aren't in every day society is asnine. They are there living their lives out in the open...whether you accept them or not
> is your choice, but they still deserve the same rights as every other *man* or *woman*. There doesn't need to be more regulation, more tax payer money and more segregation to suit how you feel about their existence.

----------


## adisongrace

> Practice reading there young lady, post #224 is pretty clear about my feelings regarding regulations and tax-payer expense.


Practice logic then *sir* creating third option not only segregates TG citizens, but also will require regulation 
as well as tax money to fun this third option. Family restrooms also do not always work...there have been cases
of TG citizens being kicked out of those bathrooms as well. The only way we can be equal and just about this issue
is to make all restrooms unisex. All that takes is a sign change.

----------


## jtap

It seems that IF all locker rooms or restrooms were made Unisex then people would have to use the decorum of not flashing other people with their privates (or be charged with public indecency) which, if this respect had been shown in this case, could have avoided this whole issue.


Edit: I was unable to ascertain whether or not this person was naked but I am presuming based on the people saying there was a man in the sauna that the private parts were exposed.

Edit 2: ok, found a link that came right out and said it. It seems like in this day and age nudity shouldn't be allowed in any change rooms or bathrooms or saunas. I am curious what stops someone from trying to place charges of public indecency upon this person.

----------


## adisongrace

> It seems that IF all locker rooms or restrooms were made Unisex then people would have to use the decorum of not flashing other people with their privates (or be charged with public indecency) which, if this respect had been shown in this case, could have avoided this whole issue.
> 
> 
> Edit: I was unable to ascertain whether or not this person was naked but I am presuming based on the people saying there was a man in the sauna that the private parts were exposed.


Exactly...the issue I have with alot of the ideas proposed 
in this thread is the idea that TG's have the goal to expose themselves...

That is not the case at all. It's nothing more than scapegoating a community...

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Parks
> 
> What of "Francis" in light of honest civil disobedience rather than being a *lewd and lascivious* "pervinawig"?


No sir.

----------


## jtap

> Exactly...the issue I have with alot of the ideas proposed 
> in this thread is the idea that TG's have the goal to expose themselves...
> 
> That is not the case at all. It's nothing more than scapegoating a community...


This person is certainly not doing their community any favours and I would think that others in the same place as them would want to ask them "what are you thinking? you are hurting our reputation!". There shouldn't be adults naked around children in public. If you use common sense this wouldn't be happening but with people that love to push boundaries, laws to enforce the obvious might need to be put in place for the special folks to get the message.

----------


## John F Kennedy III

I don't understand how Pervinawig hasn't been arrested yet. From what I was reading last night...

*HE REFUSES TO STOP GOING IN THERE AND WALKING AROUND NAKED IN FRONT OF 6-18 YEAR OLD GIRLS AND USING THE SAUNA NAKED. THE COLLEGE HAS PUT UP CURTAINS TO TRY TO MAKE SURE GIRLS AS YOUNG AS 6 AREN'T UNDRESSING IN FRONT OF A 45 YEAR OLD MAN IN A WOMAN'S LOCKER ROOM!

WTF IS THIS WORLD COMING TO?*

This college should be boycotted and every student should transfer ASAP.

----------


## Danke

> I don't understand how Pervinawig hasn't been arrested yet. From what I was reading last night...
> 
> *HE REFUSES TO STOP GOING IN THERE AND WALKING AROUND NAKED IN FRONT OF 6-18 YEAR OLD GIRLS AND USING THE SAUNA NAKED. THE COLLEGE HAS PUT UP CURTAINS TO TRY TO MAKE SURE GIRLS AS YOUNG AS 6 AREN'T UNDRESSING IN FRONT OF A 45 YEAR OLD MAN IN A WOMAN'S LOCKER ROOM!
> 
> WTF IS THIS WORLD COMING TO?*
> 
> This college should be boycotted and every student should transfer ASAP.

----------


## BamaAla

> You're not a transphobe, you're just from Alabama...#1 in incest!
> 
> We understand.


If you condone the acts of the man in the OP, you are a pervert as well. 

"Colleen" in his own words:




> "if there is one thing I have learned it is that if I am wanting or needing anything, I have to ask for it. So, here goes.Im a very sexual person and having frequent and regular sexual activity in my life goes far to feel more fully balanced and healthy. While I am not necessarily seeking someone at the moment to be a life partner, I do miss regular and frequent sex."
> 
> "I was one to indiscriminately $#@! random strangers. Not so much now. I deserve better, so do you. Yes, I MAY be quick to jump in the sack with you. . . IF I can feel a real, beautiful connection between us. "
> 
> "I love women and find all kinds of women attractive. I must admit that I have a special affinity for curvy girls and those who some might call natural girls. I have a thing for hippie chicks, I have to say! They REALLY get me going! If youre one of those awesome women who long ago gave up getting rid of your beautiful body hair, Ill probably fall down in adoration at your feet.Did I mention I just love and adore women? Their touch, feel, scent, taste. . . . are all intoxicating to me!  Giving oral sex, kisses, nibbling, and lots of caressing and touch make me a happy girl. Ive never, even when I was living as a male, been a genitally focused person sexually. I feel sex in every pore of my body and have a thousand and one erogenous zones!I am a very attentive sexual partner and love to please whomever I am with."
> 
> "I am polyamorous, and always have been. I can be monogamous in a relationship but am not happy that way. I need to be able to share the infinite love which my heart holds the capacity for. Or at least be free to do so, in a responsible and loving manner."
> 
> "I think about sex a lot, of course."
> ...


I understand that people like you have a deep fear and hatred of people that are not on board with every sick freak's perversions and who may have the audacity to think that there are right and wrong ways to act in public, but this one is especially disgusting. If you want to throw your lot in with a guy who talks like that and then goes into public saunas and exposes himself to younger than 10 girls, you have issues buddy.

----------


## tod evans

These people deserve exactly what they are putting up with.

Let that _"person"_ try behaving in that manner anywhere in the Ozarks and see how they fare.

For AG, If you haven't noticed I am focusing on *behavior* not orientation. 

I don't care if it's a crossdressing **** or a Catholic Priest, if they're prancing around naked in front of young girls they should be stopped by the closest responsible adult. And any adult present who doesn't stop them is complicent in their behavior. 




> I don't understand how Pervinawig hasn't been arrested yet. From what I was reading last night...
> 
> *HE REFUSES TO STOP GOING IN THERE AND WALKING AROUND NAKED IN FRONT OF 6-18 YEAR OLD GIRLS AND USING THE SAUNA NAKED. THE COLLEGE HAS PUT UP CURTAINS TO TRY TO MAKE SURE GIRLS AS YOUNG AS 6 AREN'T UNDRESSING IN FRONT OF A 45 YEAR OLD MAN IN A WOMAN'S LOCKER ROOM!
> 
> WTF IS THIS WORLD COMING TO?*
> 
> This college should be boycotted and every student should transfer ASAP.

----------


## Confederate

> That's nothing more than transphobia. You obviously are brainwashed...


You think a dude with a penis can call himself a woman and be one? You obviously are brainwashed...

----------


## Confederate

> Well what about those transgendered women/men who don't feel safe using 
> "traditional" restrooms? Do we just say $#@! you to their right to feel safe?


What about 6-year old girls who don't feel safe having freaks showing their penis in women's locker rooms? 
Do we just say $#@! you to their right to feel safe?

----------


## thoughtomator

> "Colleen" in his own words:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				"if there is one thing I have learned it is that if I am wanting or needing anything, I have to ask for it. So, here goes.I’m a very sexual person and having frequent and regular sexual activity in my life goes far to feel more fully balanced and healthy. While I am not necessarily seeking someone at the moment to be a life partner, I do miss regular and frequent sex."
> 
> "I was one to indiscriminately $#@! random strangers. Not so much now. I deserve better, so do you. Yes, I MAY be quick to jump in the sack with you. . . IF I can feel a real, beautiful connection between us. "
> ...


Jesus H $#@!ing Christ on a pogo stick, did I call this one spot on or what? I swear I had no foreknowledge of this little plea for institutionalization.

----------


## Confederate

> Seems like you have failed miserably.
> 
> I pity your children, growing up with some bitter hag as their mother.
> 
> Quoted because thoughtomator is a closet homosexual.


Your personal insults are completely unnecessary. If you can't hold a civil conversation, maybe you shouldn't post. I've looked through your posts and you seem to have a pattern of resorting to insulting and degrading other members and their beliefs.

----------


## Confederate

> “I use my cock cuz I have one.”


Well that's a very lady-like thing to say...

----------


## adisongrace

> You think a dude with a penis can call himself a woman and be one? You obviously are brainwashed...


1) If she lives her life as woman, she's a woman.
2) I am not brainwashed. I prefer to let people live their lives and have an open mind. 




> What about 6-year old girls who don't feel safe having freaks showing their penis in women's locker rooms? 
> Do we just say $#@! you to their right to feel safe?


Stop scapegoating and insulting...weren't you just the one who stated....

"Your personal insults are completely unnecessary. If you can't hold a civil conversation, maybe you shouldn't post. I've looked through your posts and you seem to have a pattern of resorting to insulting and degrading other members and their beliefs."

----------


## Confederate

> 1) If she lives her life as woman, she's a woman.
> 2) I am not brainwashed. I prefer to let people live their lives and have an open mind.


1) The way you live your life does not affect your gender. If you have a penis, you're a man. If you have a vagina, you're a woman.
Cutting off your penis and getting implants does not make you a woman, just a very sick and twisted man.

2) It is pretty brainwashed to think you can just wish your gender away.




> Stop scapegoating and insulting...weren't you just the one who stated....
> 
> "Your personal insults are completely unnecessary. If you can't hold a civil conversation, maybe you shouldn't post. I've looked through your posts and you seem to have a pattern of resorting to insulting and degrading other members and their beliefs."


What member have I insulted? Unless you're a sick, twisted man who thinks he's a woman and shows off his penis to 6-year old girls in women's locker rooms, I haven't insulted any forum member.

Chrysamere called one poster a bitter hag and another one a closeted homosexual, those are personal insults.

Oh and in reply to the -rep you gave me:




> Transwomen are women plain and simple.


No, they're not. If you have a penis, you are not a woman. If you have an Y chromosome, you're not a woman. If you have to mutilate your body to look like a woman, you're still not a woman.

----------


## adisongrace

> 1) The way you live your life does not affect your gender. If you have a penis, you're a man. If you have a vagina, you're a woman.
> Cutting off your penis and getting implants does not make you a woman, just a very sick and twisted man.
> 
> 2) It is pretty brainwashed to think you can just wish your gender away.
> 
> 
> 
> What member have I insulted? Unless you're a sick, twisted man who thinks he's a woman and shows off his penis to 6-year old girls in women's locker rooms, I haven't insulted any forum member.
> 
> Chrysamere called one poster a bitter hag and another one a closeted homosexual, those are personal insults.


Exactly you are insulting members. It's not your place to say they are any less of a man or woman that's your personal belief...isn't that what you were against pushing someone's view on another...

----------


## Confederate

> Exactly you are insulting members. It's not your place to say they are any less of a man or woman that's your personal belief...isn't that what you were against pushing someone's view on another...


What member have I insulted? I would hope no one on here is some sick, twister, pervert who exposes his penis to 6-year old girls. And if there is, then I sure has heck will insult you for being a disgusting, despicable human being.

And it's not a "personal belief" to say that if you have a penis you're a man.

----------


## adisongrace

> 1) The way you live your life does not affect your gender. If you have a penis, you're a man. If you have a vagina, you're a woman.
> Cutting off your penis and getting implants does not make you a woman, just a very sick and twisted man.
> 
> 2) It is pretty brainwashed to think you can just wish your gender away.
> 
> 
> 
> What member have I insulted? Unless you're a sick, twisted man who thinks he's a woman and shows off his penis to 6-year old girls in women's locker rooms, I haven't insulted any forum member.
> 
> ...


Again what about those with ambiguous gentalia...

----------


## adisongrace

> What member have I insulted? I would hope no one on here is some sick, twister, pervert who exposes his penis to 6-year old girls. And if there is, then I sure has heck will insult you for being a disgusting, despicable human being.


You are misquoting yourself now...not exactly the best idea if you want people to take you seriously. Use logic please.

----------


## Confederate

> You are misquoting yourself now...not exactly the best idea if you want people to take you seriously. Use logic please.


I am using logic...if you have a penis you're not a woman.

----------


## adisongrace

> I am using logic...if you have a penis you're not a woman.


That's your opinion, not a fact. 

Educamacation!

http://www.wpath.org/publications_standards.cfm

----------


## Confederate

> That's your opinion, not a fact. 
> 
> Educamacation!
> 
> http://www.wpath.org/publications_standards.cfm


LOL, you provide a link from the "World Professional Association for Transgender Health." Yeah, they aren't pushing some sort of agenda..

----------


## adisongrace

> LOL, you provide a link from the "World Professional Association for Transgender Health." Yeah, they aren't pushing some sort of agenda..


What am I pushing for? I'd really love to hear your view...

----------


## Confederate

> What am I pushing for? I'd really love to hear your view...


You seem to be pushing for some distorted view that you can choose whatever gender you want. You're pushing some ludicrous notion that if a man can become a woman if wants to. You can't. If you're a dude, you'll always be a dude. Cutting off your penis and getting implants isn't going to change that.

You also see to think it's ok for a perverted man who thinks he's a woman to use women's locker rooms and expose his penis to little girls.

----------


## adisongrace

> You seem to be pushing for some distorted view that you can choose whatever gender you want. You're pushing some ludicrous notion that if a man can become a woman if wants to. You can't. If you're a dude, you'll always be a dude. Cutting off your penis and getting implants isn't going to change that.
> 
> You also see to think it's ok for a perverted man who thinks he's a woman to use women's locker rooms and expose his penis to little girls.


1) Why is distorted? Because you believe so? 
2)Yes I believe in trans rights...because they have the freedom to choose to 
live their life how they see fit. 
3)You are assuming and twisting my meaning. I am against exposure in all forms. However, trans citizens have just the same rights as any other person. 

Now let me ask you three questions:

1)How do you know that you haven't met or even went to the restroom next to a trans person?
2)If you have this view on trans rights...what are your view on gay rights?
3)You never answered me concerning ambiguous gentalia...

----------


## tod evans

Just 'cause it needed repeated....






> *As the OP, 
> *
> 
> I respectfully request we find another way to express ourselves without the term "transphobe"
> 
> See my comments here:
> 
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post4700298
> 
> ...

----------


## Confederate

> 1) Why is distorted? Because you believe so?


Because you can't change your gender. It is impossible. You can't change your DNA from male to female or vice-versa. A tranny man who pretends to be a woman can't give birth. A tranny woman who pretends to be a man can't produce sperm.




> 2)Yes I believe in trans rights...because they have the freedom to choose to 
> live their life how they see fit.


They can live their life however they want, but that doesn't mean cutting off your penis makes you a woman.




> 3)You are assuming and twisting my meaning. I am against exposure in all forms. However, trans citizens have just the same rights as any other person.


Sure they have the same rights, but there's no right to go into a woman's locker room if you're a man.




> Now let me ask you three questions:
> 
> 1)How do you know that you haven't met or even went to the restroom next to a trans person?


I don't, because if we went to the restroom I wouldn't see anything. If some tranny got naked in front of me in a men's locker room I'd sure as heck make sure they got kicked out.




> 2)If you have this view on trans rights...what are your view on gay rights?


No such thing as "gay rights."




> 3)You never answered me concerning ambiguous gentalia...


They should have their DNA tested, and have surgery to correct any deformation. I don't see what your point here is.

----------


## thoughtomator

> 1) Why is distorted? Because you believe so? 
> 2)Yes I believe in trans rights...because they have the freedom to choose to 
> live their life how they see fit. 
> 3)You are assuming and twisting my meaning. I am against exposure in all forms. However, trans citizens have just the same rights as any other person. 
> 
> Now let me ask you three questions:
> 
> 1)How do you know that you haven't met or even went to the restroom next to a trans person?
> 2)If you have this view on trans rights...what are your view on gay rights?
> 3)You never answered me concerning ambiguous gentalia...


Turn up your speakers good and listen up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfD2_tXiXeo&t=27m16s

----------


## heavenlyboy34

Wow, this thread is getting heated.  I'll just leave some related comic relief here for y'all.

----------


## presence

> Wow, this thread is getting heated.  I'll just leave some related comic relief here for y'all.


+rep, nice find; I think we needed that.

I thank you all for remaining relatively civil while I was away!

----------


## presence

*Colleen Brenna Francis*  
Posted on October 7, 2012 by bugbrennan 
http://pretendbian.wordpress.com/201...renna-francis/

----------


## Todd

> Exactly you are insulting members. It's not your place to say they are any less of a man or woman that's your personal belief...isn't that what you were against pushing someone's view on another...


LOL....
You're in the wrong place if you don't want anyone pushing their point of view on people.  It's the internets..

----------


## Confederate

The perv:

----------


## amy31416

> The perv:


Is that Joey Ramone?

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> *Colleen Brenna Francis*  
> Posted on October 7, 2012 by bugbrennan 
> http://pretendbian.wordpress.com/201...renna-francis/


In his own words:




> ...
> I must admit that I have a special affinity for “curvy” girls and those who some might call “natural” girls. I have a thing for “hippie chicks,” I have to say! They REALLY get me going!
> ...
> Note: I am not looking for men. It’s that simple. For anyone who is not quite sure what this means, it means PLEASE DO NOT CONTACT ME IF YOU ARE A MAN. Simple enough?  Let’s see, what else? I’m enjoying the times I get to be with my little girls, I’m reading, drawing again, and going to school full time at The Evergreen State College. Greener Girl! Yay!I love women. 
> ...
> I'm looking for
> Girls who like girls
> Ages 18–60
> ...



That's so ugly!

This guy should be in jail. He's a pervert that likes young girls and is using access to the women's facilities to ogle girls and expose himself. Indecent exposure laws trump equal access laws.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> *Colleen Brenna Francis*  
> Posted on October 7, 2012 by bugbrennan 
> http://pretendbian.wordpress.com/201...renna-francis/


"I’m legally recognized as female, and have been for a coupls of years. (I still haven’t gotten the plumbing remodeled, but it will happen somewhere down the road.)I have been undergoing Hormone Replacement Therapy for, I guess, about two years now, and am marveling at the beautiful things that are happening in my mind, spirit, and body."

Interesting.  Legally female, but has male "plumbing".

----------


## presence

*EDIT TO OP:*


A plea for peace:

One, I'd like to plea to moderation that this thread stay here in  "individual rights and liberties" on the main board if at all possible;  I've done my best to self moderate the thread along the way.  This issue  is very illustrative of the liberty movement, the nuances of liberty  logic, and the resolution of conflict and paradox through open debate.   My second and greater plea is that if you choose to post in this thread,  you please refrain from ad hominem attacks against members (which is a  site policy), specifically in the form of *"YOU are such a"*.  I  can guarentee you will run in to some abrasive comments in the coming  pages that will infuriate you.  I'm doing my best to encourage all  comments to be directed at* ideas, not members.*  In light of this,  I also ask that we not use the terms "homophobe (ic)" or "transphobe  (ic)" in the thread.  Regardless of how you may be using those words,  they are often taken as derisive slurs by other members and lead to  flames, which lead to threads being ditched to hot topics (off the  non-member/public board) and members being banned. There is now over 25  pages of public content; lets not lose it.

also:

ABC News 11/3/12
*Transgender Student in Women's Locker Room Raises Uproar*
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blog...opstories.html




> *"The college has to follow state law,"* 
> 
> Evergreen spokesman Jason Wettstein told ABC News affiliate KOMO. 
> 
> "The college cannot discriminate based on the basis of gender _identity._ *
> 
> 
> Gender identity is one of the protected things in discrimination law in this state.*"

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> Wow, this thread is getting heated.  I'll just leave some related comic relief here for y'all.


*MONTY PYTHON SUCKS!*

----------


## jmdrake

> this thread is disgusting. too much transphobia going on here...
> Aren't we suppose to be free thinking?

----------


## jmdrake

> The naked tranny in the OP.





> That was a guy in a wig...not a *transgendered* citizen. Get your facts straight.




http://www.merriam-webster.com/medic...0&t=1352221050
_trans·sex·u·al
noun
: a person who psychologically identifies with the opposite sex and may seek to live as a member of this sex especially by undergoing surgery and hormone therapy to obtain the necessary physical appearance (as by changing the external sex organs)_ 

What you seem to be wanting to talk about is *inter*gendered people.

http://www.allwords.com/word-intergender.html
_intergender	Tweet Definition of intergender Like Definition of intergender on Facebook
adjective 

1)    taking place between people of the opposite sex
2)    midway between male and female
_

So please get your own facts straight before trying to straighten out the facts of others.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Just what does that have to do with wanting to make believe he is a woman?   Sounds to me like this guy didn't want to make believe he was a woman.
> So he lost his penis... that didn't make him into a woman did it?


No, it didn't.  In fact, that's the point of my post.  I was responding to the idea that having no penis is the only standard for being allowed into a women's restroom.

----------


## adisongrace

> No, it didn't.  In fact, that's the point of my post.  I was responding to the idea that having no penis is the only standard for being allowed into a women's restroom.


Gender is how you conduct yourself. 
Sex is what you were gifted with from birth.

Plain and simple.

----------


## jmdrake

> Gender is how you conduct yourself. 
> Sex is what you were gifted with from birth.
> 
> Plain and simple.

----------


## adisongrace

> 


Is that all you have to add?

----------


## jmdrake

> Is that all you have to add?


Some comments are too ridiculous to require a worded response.  But hell, I'll give you one anyway.  You just got through saying the transsexual from the OP (and yes he is a transsexual) was just a "guy in a wig".  And now you're saying that gender is based on "how you conduct yourself"?

----------


## Dr.3D

> No, it didn't.  In fact, that's the point of my post.  I was responding to the idea that having no penis is the only standard for being allowed into a women's restroom.


Oh, I thought it was all about some idiot who was wearing a wig, thinking that was his ticket into the women's locker room.

----------


## adisongrace

> Some comments are too ridiculous to require a worded response.  But hell, I'll give you one anyway.  You just got through saying the transsexual from the OP (and yes he is a transsexual) was just a "guy in a wig".  And now you're saying that gender is based on "how you conduct yourself"?


Transgender is your gender. Just as you know for a fact you are the gender you are assuming in society right this second.
Sex is what physically given at birth. You could be born with a penis, or a vagina. Or both. Or with a penis and a uterus, etc and so forth.
Human anatomy is one of those issues that you can't deny scientific facts on. You can morally judge them all you want, but the fact is their rights stand.

----------


## adisongrace

Moreover not everyone is born with 'normal' chromosomes. Explain that.

----------


## thoughtomator

> Transgender is your gender.


"Transgender" isn't a gender. This is Biology 101.

There are only two genders - male and female. A human being who is male cannot ever become female, no matter how hard one tries to imagine it or fake it.

----------


## tod evans

> Transgender is your gender. Just as you know for a fact you are the gender you are assuming in society right this second.


Boy-oh-boy......

Am I glad to be the stereotypical baby-boomer, backwoods, hillbilly male..

I don't have to come across as politically correct or for that matter even remotely accepting of this ludicrous idea that a person can get up in the morning and decide they want to be the opposite sex and expect other members of society to be "understanding"..

$#@! that!

I don't want to understand, I'll be quite content in my blissful ignorance and relish my intolerance, ya'll can keep your weird behavior in your cities, don't bring them to the country!

And don't ask me to acknowledge any trans/anything.................Shakes head and mumbles...

----------


## adisongrace

> Boy-oh-boy......
> 
> Am I glad to be the stereotypical baby-boomer, backwoods, hillbilly male..
> 
> I don't have to come across as politically correct or for that matter even remotely accepting of this ludicrous idea that a person can get up in the morning and decide they want to be the opposite sex and expect other members of society to be "understanding"..
> 
> $#@! that!
> 
> I don't want to understand, I'll be quite content in my blissful ignorance and relish my intolerance, ya'll can keep your weird behavior in your cities, don't bring them to the country!
> ...


At least you can admit it.

----------


## adisongrace

> "Transgender" isn't a gender. This is Biology 101.
> 
> There are only two genders - male and female. A human being who is male cannot ever become female, no matter how hard one tries to imagine it or fake it.


Wrong. If you took human anatomy you would see  humanity isn't black and white.

----------


## tod evans

> At least you can admit it.


How nice a negative rep...

I'll not return the favor.

----------


## adisongrace

> How nice a negative rep...
> 
> I'll not return the favor.


Well thankyou..Seeing as how I'm using logic I really wouldn't see a reason for it.

----------


## tod evans

> Well thankyou..Seeing as how I'm using logic I really wouldn't see a reason for it.


Your "logic" might make sense in your world, but it certainly doesn't work in mine.

I suppose if a person were twisted enough they could expound on the pleasures of branding too, and base their theories on convoluted "logic".

I'm fine with you "thinking" it's perfectly acceptable for weirdos to dress up in drag and prance around in front of prepubescent girls so long as you understand that if I see this type of behavior I _will_ stop it.

And I won't pretend to justify my behavior or beliefs with any more than "that behavior is wrong".

----------


## Confederate

> "Transgender" isn't a gender. This is Biology 101.
> 
> There are only two genders - male and female. A human being who is male cannot ever become female, no matter how hard one tries to imagine it or fake it.


But if you try really really hard you can do it! Just wish upon a star, find a four leaf clover, cut your penis off, and put on a dress and voila! You're a woman.

----------


## Confederate

> Wrong. If you took human anatomy you would see  humanity isn't black and white.


I don't know about that.

These humans seem black and white.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> *MONTY PYTHON SUCKS!*


DOOd!  That is such an epic fail, I'm afraid I'm going to be forced to -rep you.

----------


## Nirvikalpa

> Your "logic" might make sense in your world, but it certainly doesn't work in mine.
> 
> I suppose if a person were twisted enough they could expound on the pleasures of branding too, and base their theories on convoluted "logic".
> 
> I'm fine with you "thinking" it's perfectly acceptable for weirdos to dress up in drag and prance around in front of prepubescent girls so long as you understand that if I see this type of behavior I _will_ stop it.
> 
> And I won't pretend to justify my behavior or beliefs with any more than "that behavior is wrong".


It's wrong, because I said so damn it!!!!

Sure did convince me... /sarc.

So you openly admit you will enforce your morality on other people?




> Am I glad to be the stereotypical baby-boomer, backwoods, hillbilly male.


Oh, that explains a lot.

----------


## Dr.3D

> But if you try really really hard you can do it! Just wish upon a star, find a four leaf clover, cut your penis off, and put on a dress and voila! You're a woman.


Don't forget to click your high heals together three times while saying, "There's no place like the woman's locker room."

----------


## tod evans

I'm not trying to convince anybody that weirdos prancing around naked in front of little girls is wrong, if you don't already know this then I feel sorry for you.

If you believe the behavior in the OP is acceptable then I have no desire to live or work around you either.

----------


## Nirvikalpa

> I'm not trying to convince anybody that weirdos prancing around naked in front of little girls is wrong, if you don't already know this then I feel sorry for you.
> 
> If you believe the behavior in the OP is acceptable then I have no desire to live or work around you either.


You said you *will* stop that type of behavior.  So, are you admitting you would use force against a person to stop it, or enforce your morality on said person?  Simple question.

----------


## Confederate

> You said you *will* stop that type of behavior.  So, are you admitting you would use force against a person to stop it, or enforce your morality on said person?  Simple question.


You wouldn't use force to stop a man from exposing himself in front of your 6-year old daughter?

----------


## Nirvikalpa

> You wouldn't use force to stop a man from exposing himself in front of your 6-year old daughter?


I hate to break your and tod evans' sensationalism party up, but it wasn't the parent of a 6-year-old that filed the complaint.  It was a parent of a 17-year-old.  The article states children *as young as 6* may use the locker rooms, but *gives no evidence that any 6 year old has seen his genitalia*.

So before your boxers get in a bunch... read.  

And I am quite aware the "IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN!!!!!" excuse has caused liberty setbacks on more than one occasion.  Not buying it here either.

----------


## Confederate

> I hate to break your and tod evans' sensationalism party up, but it wasn't the parent of a 6-year-old that filed the complaint.  It was a parent of a 17-year-old.  The article states children *as young as 6* may use the locker rooms, but *gives no evidence that any 6 year old has seen his genitalia*.
> 
> So before your boxers get in a bunch... read.  
> 
> And I am quite aware the "IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN!!!!!" excuse has caused liberty setbacks on more than one occasion.  Not buying it here either.


So a man exposing himself in front of a 17-year old is ok?

Edit: At least you admit it's a he and not a she.

----------


## Tpoints

> So a man exposing himself in front of a 17-year old is ok?
> 
> Edit: At least you admit it's a he and not a she.


so to you both, what's the age when it's OK vs not OK?

----------


## presence

> Little girls should not be exposed to naked men, period, said David Hacker, ADFs senior legal counsel,
> []
> Clearly, allowing a person who is biologically a man to undress and  expose himself to young girls places those girls at risk for emotional  distress and harm,



Read more:  http://dailycaller.com/2012/11/06/co...#ixzz2BlO69qTE

----------


## presence

Alliance Defending Freedom

letter to the head of student affairs

----------


## presence

*
Olympia WA School Officials: State Gender Identity provision overrides Title IX Equality for Girls Swim Teams* 
http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2...ls-swim-teams/



> Two Washington State high-school Girls Swim Teams were stripped of their Federal Title IX rights by Olympia Washington School officials after the teens and their parents refused to allow the girls to shower with a middle-aged retired military man calling himself Colleen.

----------


## presence

> While it is not mandatory to cover up, most women in a same-sex sauna  still choose to just wrap themselves with the towel and lounge at their  leisure. Most do not fully disrobe, so the fact that Colleen chose to,  *says to me that she was looking for a reaction.* She had to know that  exposing a penis in a ladies sauna, where most women themselves are  partially covered, was going to invite negative attention. She was being  deliberately provocative and it comes off like an exhibitionist stunt. I  believe she wanted to make a political point and succeeded, but it may  be a set back rather than a victory. Whether or not she legally has the  right to use the facility is not even the point. The point is that one  must use tact when doing so! A male penis in a ladies changing room is  certainly threatening to many women, and she needs to consider other  people's right to feel safe while practicing her own liberties. Just  because you have the right to do something, does not mean that you  should shove it in people's faces (no pun intended). I feel this is very  bad PR for transgender people, the majority of whom are thoughtful  enough to have a long view in terms of growing and maintaining the civil  rights of LGBT people everywhere. I won't even get started on what she  said about Jim Crow water fountains. She makes herself sound like an  idiot if she thinks it is so black and white (pun intended). This is a  much more nuanced issue and I think she did a major disservice to  transgender people with this unnecessary stunt.


http://jezebel.com/5957108/?post=54007208


Interesting question comes to mind, Colleen Francis enters mens College facilities, dressed as woman.  Disrobes; cock and balls + a sagging set of hormone enhanced fat nipple ta tas, for a sauna.  *Male children present, are little boys rights violated?*

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## jmdrake

> Transgender is your gender. Just as you know for a fact you are the gender you are assuming in society right this second.
> Sex is what physically given at birth. You could be born with a penis, or a vagina. Or both. Or with a penis and a uterus, etc and so forth.
> Human anatomy is one of those issues that you can't deny scientific facts on. You can morally judge them all you want, but the fact is their rights stand.


Then you were wrong to say the guy mentioned in the OP was just a "guy in a wig."  You can't have it both ways.




> Moreover not everyone is born with 'normal' chromosomes. Explain that.


Non sequitur.  There's a difference between someone being transgender and intergender.

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## Tpoints

> Then you were wrong to say the guy mentioned in the OP was just a "guy in a wig."  You can't have it both ways.
> 
> Non sequitur.  There's a difference between someone being transgender and intergender.


why not, isn't he basically saying you can't deny you're a physical man (especially in this case), even if you're mentally female?

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## LibertyEagle

> Your "logic" might make sense in your world, but it certainly doesn't work in mine.
> 
> I suppose if a person were twisted enough they could expound on the pleasures of branding too, and base their theories on convoluted "logic".
> 
> I'm fine with you "thinking" it's perfectly acceptable for weirdos to dress up in drag and prance around in front of prepubescent girls so long as you understand that if I see this type of behavior I _will_ stop it.
> 
> And I won't pretend to justify my behavior or beliefs with any more than "that behavior is wrong".


Because you are a real man and that is something that is rare today.




> You said you *will* stop that type of behavior.  So, are you admitting you would use force against a person to stop it, or enforce your morality on said person?  Simple question.


I will answer for myself and the answer is a resounding YES.

What the transgender gentlemen did infringed on the liberty of others and deserved a response.

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## tod evans

> You said you *will* stop that type of behavior.  So, are you admitting you would use force against a person to stop it, or enforce your morality on said person?  Simple question.


Absolutely! 

I *do not* subscribe to the non-aggressive philosophy so many here expound. 

If I find a weirdo exposing himself to young girls I will throw his ass out the door and not bat an eye, and if that's "forcing my morality" on the weirdo then yes I'm good with that.

[edit] 

And for the "it's for the children" comment, it doesn't matter to me if the offended girl is 2 or 72 the weirdo is out on his ass.

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## Todd

> Absolutely! 
> 
> I *do not* subscribe to the non-aggressive philosophy so many here expound. 
> 
> If I find a weirdo exposing himself to young girls I will throw his ass out the door and not bat an eye, and if that's "forcing my morality" on the weirdo then yes I'm good with that.
> 
> [edit] 
> 
> And for the "it's for the children" comment, it doesn't matter to me if the offended girl is 2 or 72 the weirdo is out on his ass.


This is what you get from 100 years of social theory based on gender is a social construct.   You get people telling you that they'r using logic.  

Next up....Age is a soical construct,  and you shouldn't be worried about that guy in the wig with his thing hanging out going after your 12 year old daughter.

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## Tpoints

> This is what you get from 100 years of social theory based on gender is a social construct.   You get people telling you that they'r using logic.  
> 
> Next up....Age is a soical construct,  and you shouldn't be worried about that guy in the wig with his thing hanging out going after your 12 year old daughter.


Yep, Strauss and Michael Savage are right, liberalism is a mental disease and individualism leads to social nihilism, morallessness, lawlessness.

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## LibertyEagle

> Absolutely! 
> 
> I *do not* subscribe to the non-aggressive philosophy so many here expound. 
> 
> If I find a weirdo exposing himself to young girls I will throw his ass out the door and not bat an eye, and if that's "forcing my morality" on the weirdo then yes I'm good with that.
> 
> [edit] 
> 
> And for the "it's for the children" comment, it doesn't matter to me if the offended girl is 2 or 72 the weirdo is out on his ass.


Even the non-aggression principle would provide for dealing with the guy.

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## Dr.3D

It's progressive..... you progress head first right into the manure pile.

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## dannno

Whoa, turns out he is a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2...ls-swim-teams/




> I am polyamorous, bisexual (I very much favor women though, and my therapist calls me a lesbianmakes me smile) and kinky.

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## tod evans

> Even the non-aggression principle would provide for dealing with the guy.


Some people aren't worth the breath to argue with and in this instance I'd be more inclined to achieve immediate results.


Tpoints; thank you too for the neg rep, nothin' like showing your colors......

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## presence

> I will answer for myself and the answer is a resounding YES.
> 
> What the transgender gentlemen did ingringed on the liberty of others and deserved a response.



"You and your dick need to GTF out of the ladies room immediately."
"Absolutely no penises in here! out out out!"
"Perhaps you're in the wrong facility?"

How would you phrase that, given the opportunity?

or do you take the fifth and just proceed to escort?

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## amy31416

> Whoa, turns out he is a lesbian trapped in a man's body.
> 
> http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2...ls-swim-teams/


Even more reason to keep him out of the women's locker room/sauna/wherever he was. Creepy.

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## tod evans

> http://jezebel.com/5957108/?post=54007208
> 
> 
> Interesting question comes to mind, Colleen Francis enters mens College facilities, dressed as woman.  Disrobes; cock and balls + a sagging set of hormone enhanced fat nipple ta tas, for a sauna.  *Male children present, are little boys rights violated?*


Yup, in my world naked weirdos and kids don't belong in the same room, however knowing several of my sons friends I'm very secure saying if that "person" tried that in their school they'd be much worse for wear-n-tear after the kids got through with them.

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## amy31416

Anyone defending this guy needs to read the article Dannno posted before they think it's okay for this guy to be in a locker room with children.

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## LibertyEagle

> Some people aren't worth the breath to argue with and in this instance I'd be more inclined to achieve immediate results.


Ha ha.  I understand.  I was just saying that others had perverted the non-aggression principle to somehow mean being a pacifist and it doesn't mean that at all.

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## Tpoints

> Anyone defending this guy needs to read the article Dannno posted before they think it's okay for this guy to be in a locker room with children.


Children? Or just girls?

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## amy31416

> Children? Or just girls?


I wouldn't allow male or female children to be around him unsupervised.

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## Confederate

> so to you both, what's the age when it's OK vs not OK?


It's never appropriate for a man to expose himself to anyone, regardless of the gender or age of the other person.

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## Confederate

> I wouldn't allow male or female children to be around him unsupervised.


I wouldn't allow any children around him, even supervised. I am not exposing my kids to that perv and his distorted fantasy.

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## Todd

> You said you *will* stop that type of behavior.  So, are you admitting you would use force against a person to stop it, or enforce your morality on said person?  Simple question.


Stopping the knife wielding invader of my house with my 45 gun is also enforcing my morality on someone.  Don't confuse protecting the weak with "aggression". 

This guy is forcing his morality on young girls who don't want it either.

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## Brian4Liberty

> Interesting question comes to mind, Colleen Francis enters mens College facilities, dressed as woman.  Disrobes; cock and balls + a sagging set of hormone enhanced fat nipple ta tas, for a sauna.  *Male children present, are little boys rights violated?*


Minus the dress, sounds like just another day in the men's locker room. It's an ugly place.

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## PierzStyx

You can chop off your penis or rip out your ovaries but none of that changes your genetic structure, which is what determines your sex. You'll always have either that pesky extra X or unwanted Y. CHanging your gender is impossible, no matter how much you change the veneer.

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## AgentOrange

Unbelievable.  It's not "transphobia" to believe that property rights trump and property owners can set their own bathroom rules....which undoubtedly will appeal to the majority of their customers.

It's not "transphobia" to not want to see a naked "woman" with a penis. His/her rights end where my begins--she/he has the right to do whatever peacable thing he/she wants to do, but they do NOT have the right to force me, much less a 6-year old girl, to look at them. As others have said, this is public indecency, and most people would choose not to patronize businesses that allow public indecency (obviously there is a select market for such a business, but these businesses are quite open about their intentions, and they don't allow minors.) 

Personally, I believe bathroom functions are a physical function which has nothing to do with ones state of mind. Just like any medical decision would be made based on someones physical condition, not on their state of mind, likewise one's using a bathroom should be based on their physical condition and not on their state of mind. Of course, under normal conditions, I wouldn't know if the person in the stall next to me is a transgender person or not--and that is how it should be. But a transgender person, or anyone else who feels the need to parade naked in front of my is violating MY rights, the notion of equal rights does NOT give anyone the right to violate others rights.

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## Tpoints

> Unbelievable.  It's not "transphobia" to believe that property rights trump and property owners can set their own bathroom rules....which undoubtedly will appeal to the majority of their customers.
> 
> It's not "transphobia" to not want to see a naked "woman" with a penis. His/her rights end where my begins--she/he has the right to do whatever peacable thing he/she wants to do, but they do NOT have the right to force me, much less a 6-year old girl, to look at them. As others have said, this is public indecency, and most people would choose not to patronize businesses that allow public indecency (obviously there is a select market for such a business, but these businesses are quite open about their intentions, and they don't allow minors.) 
> 
> Personally, I believe bathroom functions are a physical function which has nothing to do with ones state of mind. Just like any medical decision would be made based on someones physical condition, not on their state of mind, likewise one's using a bathroom should be based on their physical condition and not on their state of mind. Of course, under normal conditions, I wouldn't know if the person in the stall next to me is a transgender person or not--and that is how it should be. But a transgender person, or anyone else who feels the need to parade naked in front of my is violating MY rights, the notion of equal rights does NOT give anyone the right to violate others rights.


nobody was forced to look at his genitals. Nobody was confined in the space and prohibited from walking away or had their heads turned in the direction. The rhetoric of "nobody is allowed to force me to look and that's a violation of my freedom" is the same old one people use when they say they have a right to not be offended by people's looks, words, and the like.

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## Dr.3D

> nobody was forced to look at his genitals. Nobody was confined in the space and prohibited from walking away or had their heads turned in the direction. The rhetoric of "nobody is allowed to force me to look and that's a violation of my freedom" is the same old one people use when they say they have a right to not be offended by people's looks, words, and the like.


Yeah, nobody is forced to look at anybody anyplace, should people who feel like it just go around without any clothes on when and where ever they want.  Myself, I wouldn't be offended, but there are some who I'm sure would.

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## Tpoints

> Yeah, nobody is forced to look at anybody anyplace, should people who feel like it just go around without any clothes on when and where ever they want.  Myself, I wouldn't be offended, but there are some who I'm sure would.


You have a right to be offended, I don't think you have a right to not be offended. And even if you are, that's not the same as saying somebody forced you to look. All that aside, indecent exposure is a real crime, it's been for a long time. It's not going away anytime soon, and it has nothing to do with anybody being forced to look at anything/anywhere/anybody.

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## Dr.3D

> You have a right to be offended, I don't think you have a right to not be offended. And even if you are, that's not the same as saying somebody forced you to look. All that aside, indecent exposure is a real crime, it's been for a long time. It's not going away anytime soon, and it has nothing to do with anybody being forced to look at anything/anywhere/anybody.


So what makes it any different if a guy is undressed in a woman's locker room, vs. walking down the street in the buff?

Edit: It's kind of hard not to look without bumping into walls and tripping on things.

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## tod evans

> . The rhetoric of "nobody is allowed to force me to look and that's a violation of my freedom" is the same old one people use when they say they have a right to not be offended by people's looks, *words*, and the like.


Lip off to me and I'll pop ya' in the chops........

Enjoy the anonymity of the internet...

Looks you can't do anything about, how you act however is a choice. 

Being polite works in church and biker-bars, I know from firsthand experience, and any sane person can express themselves politely if they so choose. If you choose to not be polite I believe I'm entitled to teach both manners and respect and I'm not your mother so there's no pretense of being nice or caring about your feelings.

And before you spout off, yes I'd expect to be treated the same way were I disrespectful or exhibiting poor etiquette for my surroundings.

----------


## Tpoints

> So what makes it any different if a guy is undressed in a woman's locker room, vs. walking down the street in the buff?
> 
> Edit: It's kind of hard not to look without bumping into walls and tripping on things.


for purposes of indecent exposure, probably none, which is exactly what Francis is charged with.

----------


## Tpoints

> Lip off to me and I'll pop ya' in the chops........
> 
> Enjoy the anonymity of the internet...
> 
> Looks you can't do anything about, how you act however is a choice. 
> 
> Being polite works in church and biker-bars, I know from firsthand experience, and any sane person can express themselves politely if they so choose. If you choose to not be polite I believe I'm entitled to teach both manners and respect and I'm not your mother so there's no pretense of being nice or caring about your feelings.
> 
> And before you spout off, yes I'd expect to be treated the same way were I disrespectful or exhibiting poor etiquette for my surroundings.


What is that? a threat? lol

----------


## presence

*
Back to our regularly scheduled* *pervinawig** thread...*

----------


## tod evans

> What is that? a threat? lol


Simply describing how I conduct myself in public.

People who put up with unethical or disrespectful behavior make that choice, I'm not one of them.

----------


## AgentOrange

> nobody was forced to look at his genitals. Nobody was confined in the space and prohibited from walking away or had their heads turned in the direction. The rhetoric of "nobody is allowed to force me to look and that's a violation of my freedom" is the same old one people use when they say they have a right to not be offended by people's looks, words, and the like.


How would anyone know (s)he was naked there, until they saw him? Granted I don't visit sauna's frequently, but on the few occasions I was there, NOBODY was naked. Much less sprawled out naked. This person was an exhibitionist, and instead of going to a nudist gathering where the person could sprawl out among willing participants, (she) did indeed force others to view her/his nakedness by sprawling out in an area where nobody else was naked or expecting to see others sprawled out. It's wrong for anyone to do this, female, male, tranny, or any shades in between. It called decency, which this person lacked. And pretending this is some big human rights issue doesn't change the fact that this person was rude, and most likely breaking the law.

----------


## adisongrace

> Your "logic" might make sense in your world, but it certainly doesn't work in mine.
> 
> I suppose if a person were twisted enough they could expound on the pleasures of branding too, and base their theories on convoluted "logic".
> 
> I'm fine with you "thinking" it's perfectly acceptable for weirdos to dress up in drag and prance around in front of prepubescent girls so long as you understand that if I see this type of behavior I _will_ stop it.
> 
> And I won't pretend to justify my behavior or beliefs with any more than "that behavior is wrong".


Just as if I see bigotry, such as now, I will put an end to it.

----------


## adisongrace

> What is that? a threat? lol


Yep. I think that we've come to the witch hunt point in this thread.

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> "Transgender" isn't a gender. This is Biology 101.
> 
> There are only two genders - male and female. A human being who is male cannot ever become female, no matter how hard one tries to imagine it or fake it.


What is it if it's born with a penis and vagina?

----------


## tod evans

> Just as if I see bigotry, such as now, I will put an end to it.


If you consider not permitting naked cross-dressing trannys to flash children bigotry then you are truly a deranged individual. 

Just so you know.......My reaction would be the same were it a Catholic Priest or construction worker, it is the behavior of exposing ones self to children that is illegal, immoral and offensive and there is no amount of politically correct buz-word bull$#@! going to convince me otherwise.

----------


## jkob

I'm an open minded person and disagree with a lot of the black and white views some people have here on the subject of gender but i'm not so sure about this situation

honestly I've never felt the need to be nude in public, maybe I'm just a prude

----------


## Confederate

> Just as if I see bigotry, such as now, I will put an end to it.


What bigoted about not wanting perverted men exposing their penises to little girls?

----------


## presence

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusive...ked-transition



> A Florida man claims anti-hair loss pills changed his gender identity  and he's now living as a woman, and he recently opened up to *Anderson Cooper* about his unexpected change and RadarOnline.com has a clip.
> 
> *William McKee*, 38, was a married father of one when he ordered  a generic form of Propecia from an FDA-approved manufacturing plant in  India and he claims that after just a few months on the pills, his body  felt more feminine and he went through what he calls "a life and death  struggle."
> PHOTOS: William McKee Transforms Into Mandi
>  Now she's *Mandi*, and told Anderson that the changes in her body triggered a deep depression and her marriage shattered.
>  "I went into severe depression, and by the time I got to 2011, my marriage had ended and I was living alone," Mandi said.

----------


## Origanalist

> What is it if it's born with a penis and vagina?


If I was I would probably have the same look on my face as your avatar.

----------


## shane77m

The title of this thread should be "man told to leave women's locker room"

----------


## Cody1

> IRONY:
> 
> "drinking from the wrong water fountain"
> 
> get it?

----------


## NewRightLibertarian

Wow, I remember seeing this thread and thinking it was so absurd to talk about. Little did I know that it would become one of the main issues in the country a few years later!!!

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## paleocon1

The socalled 'transgender' suffered no rights violation.

----------

