# Liberty Movement > Defenders of Liberty > Justin Amash Forum >  Amash faces some backlash at home (and possible primary challenge)

## JCDenton0451

*Some tea party congressmen find signs of political backlash at home*


> Nearly three years after a band of renegade congressmen brought the  tea party insurgency to Washington, there are early rumblings of a  political backlash in some of their districts. 						
> 
> Here in the Dutch Reformed country of West Michigan, long a  bastion of mainstream, mannerly conservatism, voters in 2010 handed the  House seat once held by Gerald R. Ford to Justin Amash, a 33-year-old  revolutionary and heir to the libertarian mantle of former congressman  Ron Paul (R-Tex.). Amash was part of an attempted coup against House  Speaker John A. Boehner (R- Ohio) and is a leader of the House tea party  faction that helped force a government shutdown last week.
> 
> But within Grand Rapids powerful business establishment, patience is  running low with Amashs ideological agenda and tactics. Some business  leaders are recruiting a Republican primary challenger  who they hope will serve the old-fashioned way  by working the inside  game and playing nice to gain influence and solve problems for the  district. They are tired of tea party governance, as exemplified by the  budget fight that led to the shutdown and threatens a first-ever U.S.  credit default.





> Some prominent business leaders are lining up behind investment  manager Brian Ellis, according to several GOP operatives here. Ellis  declined to grant an interview but wrote in an e-mail: I am taking a  hard look at running in the Republican primary and will make up my  mind in the near future.
> 
> 
> State Sen. Mark C. Jansen, seen as a  pragmatic Republican, also is weighing a challenge to Amash, said Deb  Drick, his chief of staff. We get frequent calls from people  encouraging Senator Jansen to run, Drick said. Theres got to be a  reason hes being approached so much.
> 
> 
> Meg Goebel, president of the Paul Goebel Group,  an insurance agency, said she is really, really unhappy with the  leading role Amash has played in tying the health-care law to overall  government funding.
> 
> I dont see him as a collaborator, and I think thats a huge problem,  Goebel,  a former chair of the Grand Rapids Chamber of Commerce, said.  People used to say, I dont like the Congress, but I like my  congressman. I dont think thats the case anymore.





> Here in Amashs Grand Rapids district, several well-known executives who  are said to have promised their support to Ellis did not respond to  requests for interviews. But Katie Packer Gage, a former senior aide to  Romney and a Michigan GOP operative, said, The business community in  Grand Rapids has been completely disenchanted with Amash.
> 
> LaTourette said some Wall Street donors called him after reading  reports of a possible  primary challenge to Amash and said they were  ready to go. LaTourette noted that, before Amash, the district was  represented by moderate Republican Vernon J. Ehlers, a former nuclear  physicist. Its not bad ground for the center-right of the party, the  governing wing of the party, to stake out its claim, he said. 						
> 
> But the business establishment here is hardly united against Amash. One of the biggest names in this city, Douglas L. DeVos, president of Amway and son of the multinational corporations founder, is actively supporting the congressmans reelection.
> 
> 
> DeVos recently wrote a letter to Michigan business leaders urging  them to give the maximum $5,200 to Amash right away. The donations,  DeVos wrote, would help Amash avoid an unnecessary and expensive  challenge. In the most recent filing, Amash had just $164,000 in his  campaign account.
> 
> ...

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## Warlord

Amash will be fine and is popular in his district

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## JCDenton0451

> Amash will be fine and is popular in his district


But didn't he just make it a little harder for himself, being part of the "shutdown caucus" and all?

For the record, a Democrat won 44% in the last election.

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## juleswin

> But didn't he just make it a little harder for himself, being part of the "shutdown caucus" and all?
> 
> For the record, a Democrat won 44% in the last election.


No he did not. All day on sunday news, the talking heads were telling me how jerrymandered districts have created very polarized districts and how the congressmen/women on either side wouldn't face any consequences from their action. My hope is that jerrymandering wouldn't help the democratic senators who have engineered this shutdown to avoid consequences from their actions

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## Warlord

> But didn't he just make it a little harder for himself, being part of the "shutdown caucus" and all?
> 
> For the record, a Democrat won 44% in the last election.


No he did not.  Amash is still popular and holds regular townhalls and has a growing national profile

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## klamath

> No he did not. All day on sunday news, the talking heads were telling me how jerrymandered districts have created very polarized districts and how the congressmen/women on either side wouldn't face any consequences from their action. My hope is that jerrymandering wouldn't help the democratic senators who have engineered this shutdown to avoid consequences from their actions


A US senate seat can't be gerrymandered unless state lines are redrawn.

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## JCDenton0451

> No he did not. All day on sunday news, the talking heads were telling me how jerrymandered districts have created very polarized districts and how the congressmen/women on either side wouldn't face any consequences from their action. My hope is that jerrymandering wouldn't help the democratic senators who have engineered this shutdown to avoid consequences from their actions


As I understand it, Amash's district was gerrymandered after 2010 to include more Democrats. Local GOP Establishment did this on purpose, they don't like him very much.

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## Feeding the Abscess

Conundrum:

Libertarians are tools of the business class

The business class opposes Justin Amash

DILEMMA

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## angelatc

> But didn't he just make it a little harder for himself, being part of the "shutdown caucus" and all?
> 
> For the record, a Democrat won 44% in the last election.


No, and he made himself more popular with his pro-civil liberty positions.  The GOP tried to redistrict him out, and he still won handily.  Michigan is only blue in the cities.

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## JCDenton0451

> No, and he made himself more popular with his pro-civil liberty positions.  The GOP tried to redistrict him out, and he still won handily.  Michigan is only blue in the cities.


Civil liberties are popular, government shutdown is NOT. The question is which one of his stances the voters will remember most on election day.

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## mczerone

> Conundrum:
> 
> Libertarians are tools of the business class
> 
> The business class opposes Justin Amash
> 
> DILEMMA


If there's a serious primary challenger, Amash has the perfect populist response: "Big Money from out-of-state wants me out of this seat so they can continue to use your money for pet projects and liberal causes. The only people that are against me are the people who profit from your tax dollars, and I stand everyday to protect your money and your liberties."

Amash's congressional seat is a great lesson for the real story of the state: parasites trying to pit the people against each other so they don't unite against the state itself.

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## angelatc

> Civil liberties are popular, government shutdown is NOT. The question is which one of his stances the voters will remember most on election day.


Nobody really cares about the government shutdown.  The media is in a feeding frenzy, but the average American who doesn't pay attention to politics except at election time has not noticed any disruption in their day-to-day lives. 

Obama will soon start cutting off welfare checks though.  And that's when it will turn ugly.

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## specsaregood

> Nobody really cares about the government shutdown.  The media is in a feeding frenzy, but the average American who doesn't pay attention to politics except at election time has not noticed any disruption in their day-to-day lives.


I went to check the weather today, and as I have for years tried to pull up http://noaa.gov   and got a shutdown notice.    I had to go use a private party website to get my weather information. I felt disrupted.    And yet,  Mrs. Obama's personal project government website is still up and running.   http://www.letsmove.gov/

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## klamath

> I went to check the weather today, and as I have for years tried to pull up http://noaa.gov   and got a shutdown notice.    I had to go use a private party website to get my weather information. I felt disrupted.    And yet,  Mrs. Obama's personal project government website is still up and running.   http://www.letsmove.gov/


 Go to your local NWS site. Mine is totally up and running but has this disclaimer. 


> Due to the Federal Government shutdown, NOAA.gov and
> most associated web sites are unavailable. However,
> because the information this site provides is necessary
> to protect life and property, it will be updated and 
> maintained during the Federal Government shutdown.

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## UtahApocalypse

Would love the list of these businesses I will never visit.

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## angelatc

> I went to check the weather today, and as I have for years tried to pull up http://noaa.gov   and got a shutdown notice.    I had to go use a private party website to get my weather information. I felt disrupted.    And yet,  Mrs. Obama's personal project government website is still up and running.   http://www.letsmove.gov/


Most people still get their weather from the local TV stations and The Weather Channel.  I get mine at Accuweather.com, but I suspect The Weather Channel site gets a lot more traffic.  They are political, so I suspect they're weighing in on the shutdown though.

If the government wasn't being bullies, the private sector would rush in to fill the small voids.

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## economics102

> “I don’t see him as a collaborator, and I think that’s a huge problem,” Goebel, a former chair of the Grand Rapids Chamber of Commerce


If your definition of collaborate is to collude, then no.

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## TaftFan

The liberals on his Facebook page keep telling me a primary challenger is going to emerge soon.

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## Todd

> But didn't he just make it a little harder for himself, being part of the "shutdown caucus" and all?
> 
> For the record, a Democrat won 44% in the last election.


 I guess this will just be a challenge to get him reelected.  Are you up to it?   

What's you're deal lately anyhow?  You run around here posting articles that almost seem to negate the Tea party strategy and principles.

 What strategy do you propose he follow?  One that abandons principle and completely compromises with what we've been fighting for the last 6 to purge from Congress and the GOP in particular?

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## anaconda

Does anyone else find George Will's talking points laced with council On Foreign Relations code?

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## jct74

National Review on a possible primary challenge:




> Jordan Gehrke, a Republican campaign operative with deep ties to Michigan politics, tells National Review that Amash shouldn’t be too worried. “The Tea Party saved the GOP from itself in 2010, and the GOP establishment has never gotten over it,” he says. ”Case in point with Justin Amash – he was never their guy. He’s doing what the grassroots elected him to do, though, and that’s why he’ll win big again. Establishment donors should focus their resources on beating Democrats instead — last I checked, Michigan has a pretty big Senate race in 2014.”
> 
> And a Michigan consultant who preferred to remain anonymous says the challenge isn’t just about the ideological make-up of the House; for some Michigan Republicans, beating Amash is personal. “This fight is about 65 percent typical ‘Tea Party vs. Establishment,’ but there’s another component, too: Amash kind of goes out of his way to an a**hole. He doesn’t care if you like him and really wants to make sure that you know that. It’s not helpful.”


http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...betsy-woodruff

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## jct74

press conference scheduled for 10 am tomorrow where Brian Ellis is expected to announce his candidacy

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapi...p_primary.html



Brian Ellis

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## jct74

Detroit News reports big money lining up behind Ellis, promising him all the money he needs...




> Out west, rising libertarian star Amash faces a likely challenge from another businessman, Brian Ellis. Like Bentivolio, Amash is short on funds, with just $164,000 in his account.
> 
> Ellis, meanwhile, has been promised all the money he’ll need from “a group of people who can give at robust levels,” according to one prominent west Michigan executive. Translation: The leading business and political names in Grand Rapids are backing Ellis’ bid, which he’s expected to announce formally next month.


http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...ON01/309260013

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## mczerone

> National Review on a possible primary challenge:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				Amash kind of goes out of his way to an a**hole. He doesn’t care if you like him and really wants to make sure that you know that.
> 			
> ...


So, if you're not at least making sure that everyone in D.C. "likes you" then you're an $#@!? I don't think he's name calling and pulling people's hair, so what has he done that would make any normal, sane person call him an $#@!? I think the problem is that 430 Congressmen are $#@!s and they don't know how to deal with someone who is still mostly human.

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## eduardo89

> Michigan is only blue in the cities.


Like every other state. Metropolitan areas with over 500,000 inhabitants should have no representation in Congress.

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## HOLLYWOOD

I'd like to see all the phone calls recorded by the NSA between Grand Rapids and Washington DC metro. FASCISM-CORPORATISTS coming out of the woodwork.

Looking at the Insurance groups attacking Amash...



> Meg Goebel, president of the Paul Goebel Group,   an insurance agency, said she is “really, really unhappy” with the   leading role Amash has played in tying the health-care law to overall   government funding.
> 
> “I don’t see him as a collaborator, and I think that’s a huge problem,”   Goebel,  a former chair of the Grand Rapids Chamber of Commerce, said.   “People used to say, ‘I don’t like the Congress, but I like my   congressman.’ I don’t think that’s the case anymore.”





> http://www.paulgoebelgroup.com/index.asp?LT=goebelm *Margaret E. (Meg) Goebel*
> _President and Owner_
> 
> * *  BIO (PDF)* * High Resolution Photo 
> 
>   
> 
> Both Meg’s professional                             and personal lives are marked with countless accomplishments and remarkable dedication.                             
> 
> ...





> *Katie Packer Gage*, a *former senior aide to  Romney and a Michigan GOP  operative,* said, “The business community in  Grand Rapids has been  completely disenchanted with Amash.”

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## Cleaner44

> But didn't he just make it a little harder for himself, being part of the "shutdown caucus" and all?
> 
> For the record, a Democrat won 44% in the last election.


Blah, blah, blah

"Wouldn't he be so much better off he if would just sell out his principles and constituents and support BIG GOVT and debt and banks and the progressive agenda like most other Republicans?"

Who are you and why are you here?

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## Keith and stuff

> Like every other state. Metropolitan areas with over 500,000 inhabitants should have no representation in Congress.


That's not true. Plenty of non-cities all over the country lean Democrat. And saying people shouldn't be allowed to vote for CongressCritters just because they live in a highly populated area is strong. All adults should be allowed to vote, even black people, women, Hispanic people and so on. All adults should be allowed to vote.

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## specsaregood

> All adults should be allowed to vote, even black people, women, Hispanic people and so on. All adults should be allowed to vote.


Meh, I could be swayed to the argument that only tax payers and/or property owners be allowed to vote.

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## eduardo89

> All adults should be allowed to vote, even black people, women, Hispanic people and so on. All adults should be allowed to vote.


I disagree. Government workers, those on welfare, and those who do not pay any income taxes should not be allowed to vote. Those who do not pay property taxes shouldn't be allowed to vote in local elections if their local government levies them.

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## Christian Liberty

> Like every other state. Metropolitan areas with over 500,000 inhabitants should have no representation in Congress.


lol!  

I just wonder what effect this would have on the GOP.  I'm scared they might become even more warlike than they are right now.  I hope not...

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## Christian Liberty

> I disagree. Government workers, those on welfare, and those who do not pay any income taxes should not be allowed to vote. Those who do not pay property taxes shouldn't be allowed to vote in local elections if their local government levies them.


I can agree with this, at least as long as income and property taxes exist.

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## Bryan

OP, please answer some of the questions posed to you in this thread.


Otherwise, I'd like to point out that it's important to ID and call out the logical fallacies used in pieces like this-- this is one clear example:



> But Katie Packer Gage, a former senior aide to Romney and a Michigan GOP operative, said, The business community in Grand Rapids has been completely disenchanted with Amash.


This just sounds soooo good for them, so does that mean Katie spoke to everyone in the "business community" -- that would be pretty much anyone with a job there, no? That's what would be needed to make this claim. In reality, she didn't, the statement is a lie, and she is just making things up to push a political agenda at the expense of smearing someone else. Why give someone like that any credibility?

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## Keith and stuff

> I disagree. Government workers, those on welfare, and those who do not pay any income taxes should not be allowed to vote. Those who do not pay property taxes shouldn't be allowed to vote in local elections if their local government levies them.


So only you and your friends have rights? That's one of the most anti-liberty school of thought I've ever heard. I wouldn't even expect a Marxist to be so anti-liberty.

Everyone pays some income taxes because they buy things made by companies that pay income taxes. Everyone pays property tax, even people living in the property tax free parts of NH and AK, because they buy things from companies that pay property tax. But you warp things and sound substantially worse than Romney of the issues. If your ideas were associated with the liberty movement, it might disappear tomorrow.

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## Bryan

> Conundrum:
> 
> Libertarians are tools of the business class
> 
> The business class opposes Justin Amash
> 
> DILEMMA


I guess it depends how you define "Libertarians" - but any free market supporter certainly wouldn't be a tool for anyone but the free markets. Of course the business class benefits from free markets over big govt statism. Unfortunately too many people looking for government handouts consider themselves as members of the "business class" and don't like it when someone who stands on the free markets won't bring home the pork. When that happens you end up with people saying none-sense like "The business community in X has been completely disenchanted with Y."

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## eduardo89

> So only you and your friends have rights? That's one of the most anti-liberty school of thought I've ever heard. I wouldn't even expect a Marxist to be so anti-liberty


Voting isn't a constitutional right. And I don't consider it a universal right. Non-produce members of society (welfare recipients, for example) and those with no skin in the game (non-land owners in local elections in places with property tax) shouldn't be allowed to vote and determine how tax revenue is spent if they don't contribute of if there is a extreme conflict of interest (government workers, for example). 

I don't care if you consider it 'anti-liberty.'

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## Keith and stuff

> Voting isn't a constitutional right. And I don't consider it a universal right. Non-produce members of society (welfare recipients, for example) and those with no skin in the game (non-land owners in local elections in places with property tax) shouldn't be allowed to vote and determine how tax revenue is spent if they don't contribute of if there is a extreme conflict of interest (government workers, for example). 
> 
> I don't care if you consider it 'anti-liberty.'


Voting is by far the most important right. Remember, at least where I live, the people are the government. If the people aren't allowed to govern, the government becomes evil.

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## ThePenguinLibertarian

> Civil liberties are popular, government shutdown is NOT. The question is which one of his stances the voters will remember most on election day.


MY F*CKING GOD, are people from Michigan THIS STUPID? (no offense to people from Michigan, you have a great medical school) Is america really this dumb that they think this is all the "extremists" fault. Their acting like as if Amash was a Communist.

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## eduardo89

> Voting is by far the most important right.


I disagree. 




> Remember, at least where I live, the people are the government. If the people aren't allowed to govern, the government becomes evil.


Yeah yeah we get it. New Hampshire is a liberty utopia.

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## Bryan

> So only you and your friends have rights? That's one of the most anti-liberty school of thought I've ever heard. I wouldn't even expect a Marxist to be so anti-liberty


It would not be anti-liberty to say that as part of a government employment contract that you give up your right to vote. The same could be said for anyone who chooses to take welfare. 

Of course the income tax needs to go, there is no point in further discussion on that, IMO.

As for property taxes, that could be a local issue... but there also certainly needs to be ample arable land that could be had that has no property taxes, at least if we are to be a free country.

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## Keith and stuff

> It would not be anti-liberty to say that as part of a government employment contract that you give up your right to vote. The same could be said for anyone who chooses to take welfare. 
> 
> Of course the income tax needs to go, there is no point in further discussion on that, IMO.
> 
> As for property taxes, that could be a local issue... but there also certainly needs to be ample arable land that could be had that has no property taxes, at least if we are to be a free country.


I am against income taxes. I live in NH for a reason. But saying people cannot vote if they don't pay state or federal income taxes is wrong, especially since in theory, everyone might pay them, at least indirectly. 

As for property taxes, again, I live in NH for a reason. Plenty parts of NH and AK don't have property taxes.

My issues is with him saying that if you don't pay the taxes he wants you to pay in the way he wants you to pay them, you lose rights. That's insane. Everything you said makes a lot of sense but I'm not sure if it is all linked to what he and I were discussing.
Of course, the talk between eduardo and myself is off topic anyway...

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## Keith and stuff

> Yeah yeah we get it. New Hampshire is a liberty utopia.


It isn't even close to a utopia. It's a work in progress  I would like you to be correct, though. Who knows, maybe you can predict the future

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## fr33

JCDenton claims that the government shutdown is not popular but that has not been my experience. I've made a point to talk to everyone I know about it and they all think it's funny and want more of it.

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## Christian Liberty

> So only you and your friends have rights? That's one of the most anti-liberty school of thought I've ever heard. I wouldn't even expect a Marxist to be so anti-liberty.


Haha... Lol what a joke...



> But you warp things and sound substantially worse than Romney of the issues. If your ideas were associated with the liberty movement, it might disappear tomorrow.



In other words, you're either trolling or a beltway nut.  Voting isn't a right.



> Voting isn't a constitutional right. And I don't consider it a universal right. Non-produce members of society (welfare recipients, for example) and those with no skin in the game (non-land owners in local elections in places with property tax) shouldn't be allowed to vote and determine how tax revenue is spent if they don't contribute of if there is a extreme conflict of interest (government workers, for example). 
> 
> I don't care if you consider it 'anti-liberty.'


I agree with you that its not anti-liberty, but isn't preventing adults from voting still unconstitutional?  I don't agree with that if that is the case.




> Voting is by far the most important right. Remember, at least where I live, the people are the government. If the people aren't allowed to govern, the government becomes evil.


haha lol.  You're the one who sounds like a  statist here.

"government becomming evil" is an oxymoron.  It just is.  Kinda like saying "God becomming good".  Absurd.



> I disagree. 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah yeah we get it. New Hampshire is a liberty utopia.


Ha!

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## Henry Rogue

I got a better idea. Everyone can vote for representation, but the representation can make no laws. Thereby castrating the whole stupid process.

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## specsaregood

Isn't Rand pretty popular in MI?   Sounds to me like maybe he should go up there and do a fundraiser and townhall thing with Amash before any primary challengers show up.

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## lib3rtarian

I hope Amash wins, and wins with flying colors, so that any future challenger will think twice before challenging him. It will be devastating to our movement if he lost.

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## Icymudpuppy

I pledge to donate $100 to Amash's campaign by New Years.

Who will match me?

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## JCDenton0451

> JCDenton claims that the government shutdown is not popular but that has not been my experience. I've made a point to talk to everyone I know about it and they all think it's funny and want more of it.


I guess it's because you live in Texas. 

But here is a poll from Virginia:






> A full 62 percent of poll respondents said they oppose the government  “shutting down over funding for the Affordable Care Act, also known as  Obamacare.” Thirty-one percent said they support the shutdown.
> 
> Of the Virginia voters who oppose the shutdown, nearly two-thirds — 64  percent — support McAuliffe while 16 percent support Cuccinelli, and 12  percent back Sarvis.

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