# Liberty Movement > Defenders of Liberty > Justin Amash Forum >  Justin Amash Votes in Support of Illegal Immigrants Right To Vote

## Swordsmyth

*Michigan House Representative Justin Amash was the sole  Republican to vote against legislation saying that allowing illegal  immigrants to vote takes power away from American citizens.* 
 Today the U.S. House defeated a move that would have expressed the  sense of Congress that allowing illegal immigrants the right to vote  devalues the franchise and diminishes the voting power of United States  citizens.
 The legislation was defeated nearly along party lines, with six  Democrats voting in favor, and Rep. Justin Amash voting against it.

More at: https://bigleaguepolitics.com/princi...right-to-vote/

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## jkr

WTF?

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## timosman

https://web.archive.org/web/20101017...me-not-to-come




> Justin Amash, of Palestinian and Syrian descent

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## PursuePeace

> WTF?


Ditto.

Amash: I defend #liberty and explain every vote on Facebook.

I'm not seeing the explanation yet.

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## Superfluous Man

I don't know what reasons he'll give for this. But I have seen Amash in the past refuse to play these games where Congress passes meaningless nonbinding resolutions like this.

But also, just considering the intent behind it, it seems like it was designed to castigate localities allowing undocumented immigrants to vote in school board elections, and things like that, in response to San Francisco doing that. If this were an actual law threatening federal action against those localities to stop them from being able to their own laws in matters like that, forcing them instead to let the federal government decide their local laws for them, then it would be wrong to support that law. Amash may be showing that he takes that position by also voting against this nonbinding resolution. And I think it's noteworthy that all these tough sounding Republicans who want to portray themselves as immigration hawks by voting for this nonbinding resolution didn't choose to go that route instead and actually try to pass a real law.

Again, I can't speak for Amash, but I admire giving the middle finger to all those symbolism-before-substance Republican do-nothings.

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## Superfluous Man

I can't find the actual text of the resolution in question. The roll-call was for a motion to recommit with instructions, supposedly for the purpose of adding an amendment with that resolution, but there was no vote on the amendment itself. So I'm not sure if the text of the resolution is even available anywhere official. If someone can find it, and explain how they got to it, that would be great.

But, in looking for it, I saw that a similar (if not identical) resolution was already passed last fall. And Amash voted against that one too. Interestingly, and not surprisingly, that previous resolution passed overwhelmingly and received yea votes from a whole slew of Democrats who voted with their party against this motion to recommit.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-...tion/1071/text

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## acptulsa

> WTF?


It's meaningless "Sense if the Congress" jack off posturing, and Amash is clearly not prepared to say the Congress has any sense.

*_yawn_*

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## Brian4Liberty

It’s purely a posturing and virtue signaling vote. Apparently it worked by getting most Democrats to reverse their vote from the previous time it came up. Abstaining from these votes would be perfectly reasonable.

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## Sammy

Our country is going to hell...

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## Swordsmyth

> I don't know what reasons he'll give for this. But I have seen Amash in the past refuse to play these games where Congress passes meaningless nonbinding resolutions like this.
> 
> But also, just considering the intent behind it, it seems like it was designed to castigate localities allowing undocumented immigrants to vote in school board elections, and things like that, in response to San Francisco doing that. If this were an actual law threatening federal action against those localities to stop them from being able to their own laws in matters like that, forcing them instead to let the federal government decide their local laws for them, then it would be wrong to support that law. Amash may be showing that he takes that position by also voting against this nonbinding resolution. And I think it's noteworthy that all these tough sounding Republicans who want to portray themselves as immigration hawks by voting for this nonbinding resolution didn't choose to go that route instead and actually try to pass a real law.
> 
> Again, I can't speak for Amash, but I admire giving the middle finger to all those symbolism-before-substance Republican do-nothings.


Maybe the Republicans are right to condemn this garbage but also right not to interfere in what is a state or local issue.

Amash is wrong.

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## TheTexan

Voting is a god-given right given to every *American*.

If illegals want the right to vote they should earn it the same way all of us did: by being born here.

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## Swordsmyth

> Voting is a god-given right given to every *American*.
> 
> If illegals want the right to vote they should earn it the same way all of us did: by being born here.


They can vote in their home countries or they can follow our rules about how to get citizenship.

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## Stratovarious

> They can vote in their home countries or they can follow our rules about how to get citizenship.


/\ /\ /\

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## TheTexan

> They can vote in their home countries or they can follow our rules about how to get citizenship.


Without rules, it would be just anarchy.

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## Swordsmyth

> Without rules, it would be just anarchy.


Which would be replaced by tyranny.

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## TheTexan

> Which would be replaced by tyranny.


Is it not the same thing?

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## Swordsmyth

> Is it not the same thing?


As what?

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## Stratovarious

> Is it not the same thing?


Not really, but it will eventually lead to that, people will be looking for 'protection' .

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## Stratovarious

> Not really, but it will eventually lead to that, people will be looking for 'protection' .


Security for Freedom, what's the saying , ''....they will get nor deserve neither'' , I think it might have been
Benji, someone like that/

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## acptulsa

> Amash is wrong.


Amash is not wrong to refuse to play when Congress commences wasting time posturing.

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## Swordsmyth

> Smash is not wrong to refuse to play when Congress commences wasting time posturing.


He didn't abstain, he voted the wrong way.

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## TheTexan

> As what?


Anarchy is just another way to say tyranny.

Without rules, it would just be chaos & madness.  Order and rules are the only things that allow our lives to have meaning.

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## Swordsmyth

> Anarchy is just another way to say tyranny.
> 
> Without rules, it would just be chaos & madness.  Order and rules are the only things that allow our lives to have meaning.


Anarchy always leads to tyranny but it is not the same thing.

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## TheTexan

> Anarchy always leads to tyranny but it is not the same thing.


And tyranny always leads to anarchy.

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## Swordsmyth

> And tyranny always leads to anarchy.


True, but not so quickly as the other way.

Catching the pendulum at secured liberty is extremely difficult and keeping it there is even harder, that is why we should not be so eager to give up what we have and gamble on anarchy.

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## TheTexan

> True, but not so quickly as the other way.
> 
> Catching the pendulum at secured liberty is extremely difficult and keeping it there is even harder, that is why we should not be so eager to give up what we have and gamble on anarchy.


Catching the pendulum isn't really even that hard.  Just draft a constitution and call it a republic, problem solved.  This is how America did it and look how great it worked for us.

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## Swordsmyth

> Catching the pendulum isn't really even that hard.  Just draft a constitution and call it a republic, problem solved.  This is how America did it and look how great it worked for us.


That is the basic idea but it is much more complicated, America was a reasonably good try building on lessons learned from past attempts.
And look how it worked out, as you say.

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## TheTexan

> And look how it worked out, as you say.


Free'st country in the world.  And with the lowest taxes (only 50%, compared to other countries' 55%-60%!)

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## Swordsmyth

> Free'st country in the world.  And with the lowest taxes (only 50%!)


Our overall level of freedom and cultural dedication to it is better than anywhere else but being king of the dunghill isn't enough, we need to move to a better neighborhood.

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## acptulsa

> He didn't abstain, he voted the wrong way.


Oh?  Did it make any difference?

Leave it to a partisan to get his panties in a knot over a symbolic vote that doesn't do one damned thing.

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## EBounding

Voting "no" is rarely a bad thing in Congress.  And Amash doesn't need the Trump base to keep getting re-elected.   He got like 20K more votes than Trump did in MI-3 during 2016.

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## Swordsmyth

> Voting "no" is rarely a bad thing in Congress.


It is this time.




> And Amash doesn't need the Trump base to keep getting re-elected.   He got like 20K more votes than Trump did in MI-3 during 2016.


We will see but it isn't just Trump's base that resents the invaders being catered to and given political power to ensure Demoncrat/communist victories.

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## Stratovarious

> ...
> 
> We will see but it isn't just Trump's base that resents the invaders being catered to and given political power to ensure Demoncrat/communist victories.


''You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Swordsmyth again.''

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## acptulsa

> It is this time.
> 
> 
> We will see but it isn't just Trump's base that resents the invaders being catered to and given political power to ensure Demoncrat/communist victories.


He voted against meaningless, toothless posturing.

The only people who care think style is as important as substance.

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## Swordsmyth

> He voted against meaningless, toothless posturing.
> 
> The only people who care think style is as important as substance.


No, he voted against condemning treason.

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## acptulsa

> No, he voted against condemning treason.


So you're saying meaningless, toothless posturing can't condemn treason?

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## Swordsmyth

> So you're saying meaningless, toothless posturing can't condemn treason?


It isn't meaningless.

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## acptulsa

> It isn't meaningless.


Opinions are like hemorrhoids.

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## EBounding

Michigan Republicans should probably spend their resources getting Trump the electoral votes instead of prentending to primary Amash.

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## Swordsmyth

> Michigan Republicans should probably spend their resources getting Trump the electoral votes instead of prentending to primary Amash.


I agree with you there, Amash is small potatoes and his overall voting record is still better than almost anyone else but they should remember this and keep an eye on him in case he turns into another Jeff Flake.

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## Anti-Neocon

Ron Paul probably would've voted against this crap.



> Oh?  Did it make any difference?
> 
> Leave it to a partisan to get his panties in a knot over a symbolic vote that doesn't do one damned thing.


Bingo.

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## Superfluous Man

> No, he voted against condemning treason.


No he didn't.

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## Swordsmyth

> No he didn't.


Yes, he did.

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## EBounding

For your entertainment:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/mipr...2029856870276/

Some grassroots people want to "recall" Amash

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## Superfluous Man

> For your entertainment:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/mipr...2029856870276/
> 
> Some grassroots people want to "recall" Amash


The top comment starts:



> If you live in justin amash district ..you should start recalling now .. He is pushing back and voting against our president....


I love how these mindless lemmings call him "our president."

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## PAF

@Swordsmyth   @Stratovarious  @jkr  @Sammy @Brian4Liberty this thread should be a Thumbs UP on a liberty forum.


I fully support Justin on this.

Lately when I speak to people they believe the Fed should control all voting. That is not the way that our system was intended to work. Local Precincts should have control, and if you are concerned about voter fraud, work the precinct yourself.

As through history, once the people are slowly conditioned, power is moved up the ladder to state then Fed, biometrics and other central control mechanisms will be called for taking power away from the individual/local level.

Here is Justin’s response:




> “I voted against a motion to amend a bill to criticize San Francisco for letting non-citizens vote in school board elections. I voted no because I’m a constitutionalist who opposes such federal interference in LOCAL elections. Non-citizens have voted locally since our founding.”


https://bigleaguepolitics.com/republ...ng-in-america/


People, please wake up out of your stupor. Justin has among the highest Constitutional Freedom Index Scores of anybody.

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## Superfluous Man

> I fully support Justin on this.
> 
> Lately when I speak to people they believe the Fed should control all voting. That is not the way that our system was intended to work. Local Precincts should have control, and if you are concerned about voter fraud, work the precinct yourself.
> 
> As through history, once the people are slowly conditioned, power is moved up the ladder to state then Fed, biometrics and other central control mechanisms will be called for taking power away from the individual/local level.
> 
> Here is Justin’s response:
> 
> 
> ...


What a perfect and succinct response.

The Trumpist Jacobins here hate truth bombs like this.

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## acptulsa

> No he didn't.





> The top comment starts:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				If you live in justin amash district ..you should start recalling now .. He is pushing back and voting against our president....
> 			
> ...


Look at that use of language a little closer.  That person is not white.  They are merely playing a white person on the internet.

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## Superfluous Man

> Look at that use of language a little closer.  That person is not white.  They are merely playing a white person on the internet.


I noticed that. But her English seems par for the alt-right, if the ones who frequent this website are at all representative.

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## acptulsa

So, it managed to be both meaningless posturing _and_ a violation of the Tenth Amendment _at the same time._. Neat trick.

And he voted against it.  How is a member of Congress obeying the Tenth Amendment treason again?  The traitors are the ones who voted for this garbage.

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## acptulsa

> I noticed that. But her English seems par for the alt-right, if the ones who frequent this website are at all representative.


On par, yes.  But those people abuse the language differently.  They're more likely to put an apostrophe in front of every s they see than leave an 's off completely.

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## Swordsmyth

> @Swordsmyth   @Stratovarious  @jkr  @Sammy @Brian4Liberty this thread should be a Thumbs UP on a liberty forum.
> 
> 
> I fully support Justin on this.
> 
> Lately when I speak to people they believe the Fed should control all voting. That is not the way that our system was intended to work. Local Precincts should have control, and if you are concerned about voter fraud, work the precinct yourself.
> 
> As through history, once the people are slowly conditioned, power is moved up the ladder to state then Fed, biometrics and other central control mechanisms will be called for taking power away from the individual/local level.
> 
> ...


Criticism is not Federal control of local voting, it is specifically avoiding it, if they wanted to interfere they would have proposed a law to mandate citizenship as a requirement for voting in local elections.

Amash is wrong, allowing illegals to vote in any election is wrong and should be condemned.

I'm well aware of the relative excellence of his voting record but he votes the wrong way at the weirdest times and this is one of them.

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## Swordsmyth

> So, it managed to be both meaningless posturing _and_ a violation of the Tenth Amendment _at the same time._. Neat trick.
> 
> And he voted against it.  How is a member of Congress obeying the Tenth Amendment treason again?  The traitors are the ones who voted for this garbage.


Condemning something is not a violation of the 10thA.

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## Brett85

> The top comment starts:
> 
> 
> I love how these mindless lemmings call him "our president."


Yeah, it kind of reminds me of this.

1 Samuel 8: 19-20

"But the people refused to listen to Samuel. No! they said. We want a king over us. Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles.

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## acptulsa

> Condemning something is not a violation of the 10thA.


The federal government harassing a local jurisdiction is indeed a violation of the Tenth.

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## Swordsmyth

> The federal government harassing a local jurisdiction is indeed a violation of the Tenth.


Condemning something wrong is not harassment.

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## Dr.3D

I see a lot of people arguing, and I'm confused again.

Should the United States allow illegal immigrants to vote?

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## Superfluous Man

> I see a lot of people arguing, and I'm confused again.
> 
> Should the United States allow illegal immigrants to vote?


In federal elections? No.

That's not what this was about.

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## Dr.3D

> In federal elections? No.
> 
> That's not what this was about.


Thanks, now I understand.

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## Stratovarious

> I see a lot of people arguing, and I'm confused again.
> 
> Should the United States allow illegal immigrants to vote?


 


> In federal elections? No.
> 
>  ....


 Federal Elections?

 Just 'federal' elections ?

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## Swordsmyth

> In federal elections? No.
> 
> That's not what this was about.


Why should they be allowed to vote in any elections?
It may not be a federal issue but this vote did not attempt to make it one.
Give me one good reason letting them vote at any level should not be condemned.

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## Dr.3D

> Why should they be allowed to vote in any elections?
> It may not be a federal issue but this vote did not attempt to make it one.
> Give me one good reason letting them vote at any level should not be condemned.


I guess some states wish to allow non-citizens to vote in their local elections.   

If that's what they want, it would probably be covered by the 10th amendment.

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## Swordsmyth

> I guess some states wish to allow non-citizens to vote in their local elections.


But why should that be?
Is there any justification for it?




> If that's what they want, it would probably be covered by the 10th amendment.


Yes, but that doesn't make it right and Congress condemning it isn't a violation of the 10thA.


It is wrong to allow them to vote at any level and it should be condemned.

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## Dr.3D

> But why should that be?
> Is there any justification for it?





> The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


I guess the question is, does the Constitution prohibit the States from allowing non-citizens the local vote?  If not, then that decision is reserved to the State.



> Yes, but that doesn't make it right and Congress condemning it isn't a violation of the 10thA.
> 
> 
> It is wrong to allow them to vote at any level and it should be condemned.


Well, if it's none of the business of Congress, they shouldn't have even had to vote on it.

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## Swordsmyth

> The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor  prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively,  or to the people.
> 			
> 		
> 
> I guess the question is, does the Constitution prohibit the States from allowing non-citizens the local vote?  If not, then that decision is reserved to the State.


That is true but it doesn't make it right.







> Well, if it's none of the business of Congress, they shouldn't have even had to vote on it.


Just because it is a power reserved for the states doesn't make it absolutely none of the business of Congress even to express an opinion about, state and local elections select officials who control the voting process in federal elections and allowing foreigners (and even illegals) to vote in them affects their integrity.

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## Dr.3D

> That is true but it doesn't make it right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just because it is a power reserved for the states doesn't make it absolutely none of the business of Congress even to express an opinion about, state and local elections select officials who control the voting process in federal elections and allowing foreigners (and even illegals) to vote in them affects their integrity.


Does seem to pose a problem.

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## Swordsmyth

> Does seem to pose a problem.


Congress does have the power to refuse to seat members and it should consider using that power against states that allow foreigners to vote and against states that allow practices like ballot "harvesting".

The resolution to condemn this should include a warning that they will do so.

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## The Rebel Poet

> This thread should be a Thumbs UP on a liberty forum.
> 
> 
> I fully support Justin on this.
> 
> Lately when I speak to people they believe the Fed should control all voting. That is not the way that our system was intended to work. Local Precincts should have control, and if you are concerned about voter fraud, work the precinct yourself.
> 
> As through history, once the people are slowly conditioned, power is moved up the ladder to state then Fed, biometrics and other central control mechanisms will be called for taking power away from the individual/local level.
> 
> ...


+rep for principle over party and local control instead of federal domination.

Paul/Amash 2020!

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## The Rebel Poet

> Congress does have the power to refuse to seat members and it should consider using that power against states that allow foreigners to vote and against states that allow practices like ballot "harvesting".
> 
> The resolution to condemn this should include a warning that they will do so.


"Condemning is not harassing" -- until it is.

Look who's affecting the integrity of elections now.

If you don't like how our country is organized, then find one more in line with your ideas and stop trying to change America. We've gotten along fine with relatively *DE*centralized power for our whole history.

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## The Rebel Poet

> I guess the question is, does the Constitution prohibit the States from allowing non-citizens the local vote?  If not, then that decision is reserved to the State.
> 
> 
> Well, if it's none of the business of Congress, they shouldn't have even had to vote on it.


Outta rep.

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## Swordsmyth

> "Condemning is not harassing" -- until it is.
> 
> Look who's affecting the integrity of elections now.
> 
> If you don't like how our country is organized, then find one more in line with your ideas and stop trying to change America. We've gotten along fine with relatively *DE*centralized power for our whole history.




Refusing to seat members from states that have destroyed the integrity of their election process isn't harassment either and insisting on election integrity doesn't undermine it.

If the founders had known that any state would be treasonous enough to allow foreigners and illegals to vote they would have made it a federal power to determine who was allowed to vote and defined it in the Constitution, our system of government is predicated on everyone "playing fair" and if certain states refuse to do so and are allowed to get away with it then the entire system will collapse and be replaced by a system that is less free and more centralized.

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## PAF

> If the founders had known that any state would be treasonous enough to allow foreigners and *illegals* to vote they would have made it a federal power to determine who was allowed to vote and defined it in the Constitution, our system of government is predicated on *everyone "playing fair"*and *if certain states refuse to do so and are allowed to get away with it* then the entire system will collapse and be replaced by a system that is less free and more centralized.


So, to decentralize, we must centralize by voting Yay, violating the 10th.

This is another instance of standing on principle. But one must first agree with the fundamental, which is read my signature.

“Illegal” is a recent and statist term. Refer to Walter Block where the Fed (BLM) has no right to land. Land is open and free until homesteaded, at which point it becomes Private Property.

This is a country of immigrants, who freely traveled to escape their kings and bondage, sought a free life, hoping to own the fruits of their labor.

Those immigrants bartered, purchased and traded, forming communities, free to vote concerning their own local communities of which they live.

The problem is not with immigrants; the problem is the Fed, which provides free handouts and Welfare and the destruction of Private Property. Address the actual problem and the rest will resolve on their own.

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## Stratovarious

> So, to decentralize, we must centralize by voting Yay, violating the 10th.
> 
> This is another instance of standing on principle. But one must first agree with the fundamental, which is read my signature.
> 
> “Illegal” is a recent and statist term. Refer to Walter Block where the Fed (BLM) has no right to land. Land is open and free until homesteaded, at which point it becomes Private Property.
> 
> This is a country of immigrants, who freely traveled to escape their kings and bondage, sought a free life, hoping to own the fruits of their labor.
> 
> Those immigrants bartered, purchased and traded, forming communities, free to vote concerning their own local communities of which they live.
> ...


Where is the logic that says foreign nationals should have any right at all to participate 
in our elections.
So Russia Collusion looks good to you now?

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## Swordsmyth

> So, to decentralize, we must centralize by voting Yay, violating the 10th.


A yay vote doesn't violate the 10thA and even refusing to seat Congressmen as I suggested wouldn't either because the state would be free to continue to allow foreigners to vote or to set any other voter rules it wanted to.




> This is another instance of standing on principle. But one must first agree with the fundamental, which is read my signature.


Your "principle" is nonsense, this vote wouldn't have violated the 10thA.




> “Illegal” is a recent and statist term. Refer to Walter Block where the Fed (BLM) has no right to land. Land is open and free until homesteaded, at which point it becomes Private Property.


Entering our territory in violation of our rules is illegal and it is an invasion, if you prefer the older term then call them invaders, I won't mind.
Land is free and open TO OUR CITIZENS until homesteaded, it is part of our territory ever since we established our control over it.




> This is a country of immigrants, who freely traveled to escape their kings and bondage, sought a free life, hoping to own the fruits of their labor.
> 
> Those immigrants bartered, purchased and traded, forming communities, free to vote concerning their own local communities of where they live.
> 
> The problem is not with immigrants; the problem is the Fed, which provides free handouts and Welfare and the destruction of Private Property. Address the actual problem and the rest will resolve on their own.


Those immigrants came in accordance with our rules at the time and they were closer to our political culture than current immigrants are, and yet they still contributed to a decay of our liberty culture so we tightened our rules about immigration in order t better protect the rights of our citizens.

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## Stratovarious

> ...
> 
> The problem is not with immigrants; the problem is the Fed, which provides free handouts and Welfare and the destruction of Private Property. Address the actual problem and the rest will resolve on their own.



Why do you insist on changing  the topic to Immigrants, the topic is illegals period, has 
nothing to do with 'immigrants' .

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## PAF

@Swordsmyth

No, SwordShill. That wasn’t until the Centralist Federalists took over to enslave the people once again, and then began the process of converting people like you, taxing, justifying, establishing “laws” which are not Natural Laws weakly outlined in the Bill of Rights.

I am no fan of the Constitution, but to abide by the Constitution one must vote it. Justin’s vote was in accordance to the Constitution plain and simple. You just don’t like the outcome is your problem. Because as always, you slant and try to convince to coerce the statist ways.

By the way - great article on Justin, who has among the highest Constitutional Freedom Scores of anybody, all they had to do was throw Soros’ name around here and there and now everybody wants to oust his ass. Just wonderful. /sarc

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## The Rebel Poet

> Why do you insist on changing  the topic to Immigrants, the topic is illegals period, has 
> nothing to do with 'immigrants' .


I wouldn't have pegged you for the sort that wants to repeal all immigration laws. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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## Stratovarious

> I wouldn't have pegged you for the sort that wants to repeal all immigration laws. 
> 
> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Do you have a clue as to what you are trying to say?

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## PAF

> Why do you insist on changing  the topic to Immigrants, the topic is illegals period, has 
> nothing to do with 'immigrants' .



- Rep because you know full well that “illegal” is a recent and statist term which violates everything to do with liberty, NAP and Free Markets.

Statist forums are that-a-way —->

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## Swordsmyth

> @Swordsmyth
> 
> No, SwordShill. That wasn’t until the Centralist Federalists took over to enslave the people once again, and then began the process of converting people like you, taxing, justifying, establishing “laws” which are not Natural Laws weakly outlined in the Bill of Rights.


LOL, there were states/colonies with laws before the Constitution and they too would have ended up controlling immigration if the Constitution never existed.





> I am no fan of the Constitution, but to abide by the Constitution one must vote it. Justin’s vote was in accordance to the Constitution plain and simple. You just don’t like the outcome is your problem. Because as always, you slant and try to convince to coerce the statist ways.


The Constitution has nothing to do with this, voting to condemn allowing foreigners to vote in no way violates the 10thA.




> By the way - great article on Justin, who has among the highest Constitutional Freedom Scores of anybody, all they had to do was throw Soros’ name around here and there and now everybody wants to oust his ass. Just wonderful. /sarc


Jeff Flake used to have a record just as good, as long as Amash keeps his record intact I will oppose ousting him but I will continue to point out any time that he is wrong.

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## Swordsmyth

> - Rep because you know full well that “illegal” is a recent and statist term which violates everything to do with liberty, NAP and Free Markets.
> 
> Statist forums are that-a-way —->


That is nonsense.

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## PAF

> That is nonsense.



Oh, and I should just now start believing you. You are funny.

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## Swordsmyth

> Oh, and I should just now start believing you. You are funny.


I don't care what you believe.

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## Stratovarious

> - Rep because you know full well that “illegal” is a recent and statist term which violates everything to do with liberty, NAP and Free Markets.
> 
> Statist forums are that-a-way —->


NEG REP ?

You must be kidding me, NEG REP for opinions and fact?

:facepalm:

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## Stratovarious

> Oh, and I should just now start believing you. You are funny.


Mr neg rep, what is your favorite COUNTRY that has OPEN BORDERS?

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## PAF

> I don't care what you believe.


Ok, here’s what I don’t “believe”, just to appease you. I will tell you what I know:

Had there not been a “Freedom Index Score” by which to gauge and prove based upon the facts, you would have rebuked every vote Justin ever made. Because he is a freedom fighter like me. And that really chaps your ass ;-)

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## Swordsmyth

> Ok, here’s what I don’t “believe”, just to appease you. I will tell you what I know:
> 
> Had there not been a “Freedom Index Score” by which to gauge and prove based upon the facts, you would have rebuked every vote Justin ever made. Because he is a freedom fighter like me. And that really chaps your ass ;-)


LOL

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## PAF

> NEG REP ?
> 
> You must be kidding me, NEG REP for opinions and fact?
> 
> :facepalm:



Read my sig. Really, really think about it. Once you have, try to think how it applies to immigrants, welfare, the Fed, eminent domain, free market, NAP.

Really, think hard about that. My sig is the foundation, and the solution, to every problem that we are facing.

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## Stratovarious

> Read my sig. Really, really think about it. Once you have, try to think how it applies to immigrants, welfare, the Fed, eminent domain, free market, NAP.
> 
> Really, think hard about that. My sig is the foundation, and the solution, to every problem that we are facing.



Illegals don't belong here.


What is your favorite Country with OPEN BORDERS?

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## The Rebel Poet

> Read my sig. Really, really think about it. Once you have, try to think how it applies to immigrants, welfare, the Fed, eminent domain, free market, NAP.
> 
> Really, think hard about that. My sig is the foundation, and the solution, to every problem that we are facing.


You can't expect people to have complex philosophical thoughts about what rights are or where they come from. Most people here can't even figure out the freaking etymology of the word, much less apply it to principles.

All you should expect from that one is "Orange man gooder than Hillary man."

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## PAF

> Illegals don't belong here.
> 
> 
> What is your favorite Country with OPEN BORDERS?



Refer to posts #79 and #88.

I can not/will not answer a question that endorses/supports slavery and contrary to my signature.

Over and out.

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## PAF

> You can't expect people to have complex philosophical thoughts about what rights are or where they come from. Most people here can't even figure out the freaking etymology of the word, much less apply it to principles.
> 
> All you should expect from that one is "Orange man gooder than Hillary man."



+ Rep ... its great to see you again The Rebel Poet!

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## Stratovarious

> Refer to posts #79 and #88.
> 
> I can not/will not answer a question that endorses/supports slavery and contrary to my signature.
> 
> Over and out.


What is your favorite Open Border Country?

Better yet, what are your favorite 10 open border countries?

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## PAF

> I fully support Justin on this.
> 
> Lately when I speak to people they believe the Fed should control all voting. That is not the way that our system was intended to work. Local Precincts should have control, and if you are concerned about voter fraud, work the precinct yourself.
> 
> As through history, once the people are slowly conditioned, power is moved up the ladder to state then Fed, biometrics and other central control mechanisms will be called for taking power away from the individual/local level.
> 
> Here is Justins response:
> 
> 
> ...






> So, it managed to be both meaningless posturing _and_ a violation of the Tenth Amendment _at the same time._. Neat trick.
> 
> And he voted against it.  How is a member of Congress obeying the Tenth Amendment treason again?  The traitors are the ones who voted for this garbage.



Exactly.

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## William Tell

> - Rep because you know full well that “illegal” is a recent and statist term which violates everything to do with liberty, NAP and Free Markets.
> 
> Statist forums are that-a-way —->


Justin is a good guy and I'm not here to criticize him on what was a stupid pointless gotcha posturing vote put forward for purely political purposes any way you slice it. But Ron Paul uses the term illegal too.

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## kahless

> Read my sig. Really, really think about it. Once you have, try to think how it applies to immigrants, welfare, the Fed, eminent domain, free market, NAP.
> 
> Really, think hard about that. My sig is the foundation, and the solution, to every problem that we are facing.


If you really believe in that you would be for protecting your region from invaders that believe otherwise to protect your property rights.

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## Warrior_of_Freedom

"Nice place you got here, who's running for president?"

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## timosman

> https://web.archive.org/web/20101017...me-not-to-come


bump

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