# News & Current Events > U.S. Political News >  Is Wal-Mart Destroying America? 20 Facts About Wal-Mart That Will Absolutely Shock You

## donnay

*Is Wal-Mart Destroying America? 20 Facts About Wal-Mart That Will Absolutely Shock You*

Michael Snyder
The Economic Collapse
Wednesday, July 4, 2012

America absolutely loves Wal-Mart.  100 million customers visit Wal-Mart every single week in this country.  But is Wal-Mart good for America?  That is a question that most people never stop and ask.  Most of us love shopping in big, clean stores that are packed with super cheap merchandise, but the truth is that Wal-Mart is destroying America in a lot of ways.  As you will see below, Wal-Mart has destroyed tens of thousands of small businesses and countless manufacturing jobs over the past couple of decades.  Wal-Mart has become a gigantic retail behemoth that sells five times more stuff than any other retailer in the United States.  Unfortunately, about 85 percent of all the stuff sold at Wal-Mart is made overseas.  What that is costing the U.S. economy in terms of lost jobs and lost revenue is incalculable.  But Wal-Mart is a perfect example of where our economic system is headed.  Our economy is becoming completely and totally dominated by highly centralized monolithic predator corporations that ruthlessly crush all competition and that will stoop to just about anything in order to cut costs.  In the future, will we all be working for gigantic communal entities that funnel all of the wealth and economic rewards to a very tiny elite?  That sounds very much like how communist China works, and red-blooded Americans should want no part of that.  America is supposed to be about free enterprise and competition and working together to build up this country, and Wal-Mart is destroying all of that.

The following are 20 facts about Wal-Mart that will absolutely shock you.

#1 The average U.S. family now spends more than $4000 a year at Wal-Mart.

#2 In 2010, Wal-Mart had revenues of 421 billion dollars.  That amount was greater than the GDP of 170 different countries including Norway, Venezuela and the United Arab Emirates.

#3 If Wal-Mart was a nation, it would have the 23rd largest GDP in the world.

#4 Wal-Mart now sells more groceries than anyone else in America does.  In the United States today, one out of every four grocery dollars is spent at Wal-Mart.

#5 Amazingly, 100 million customers shop at Wal-Mart every single week.

#6 Wal-Mart has opened more than 1,100 supercenters since 2005 alone.

#7 Today, Wal-Mart has more than 2 million employees.

#8 If Wal-Mart was an army, it would be the second largest military on the planet behind China.

#9 Wal-Mart is the largest employer in 25 different U.S. states.

#10 According to the Economic Policy Institute, trade between Wal-Mart and China resulted in the loss of 133,000 manufacturing jobs in the United States between 2001 and 2006.

#11 The CEO of Wal-Mart makes more in a single hour than a full-time Wal-Mart associate makes in an entire year.

#12 Tens of thousands of Wal-Mart employees and their children are enrolled in Medicaid and are dependent on the government for healthcare.

#13 Between 2001 and 2007, the value of products that Wal-Mart imported from China grew from $9 billion to $27 billion.

#14 Sadly, about 85 percent of all the products sold at Wal-Mart are made outside of the United States.

#15 It is being reported that about 80 percent of all Wal-Mart suppliers are in China at this point.

#16 Amazingly, 96 percent of all Americans now live within 20 miles of a Wal-Mart.

#17 The number of independent retailers in the United States declined by 60,000 between 1992 and 2007.

#18 According to the Center for Responsive Politics, Wal-Mart spent 7.8 million dollars on political lobbying during 2011.  That number does not even include campaign contributions.

#19 Today, Wal-Mart has five times the sales of the second largest U.S. retailer (Costco).

#20 The combined net worth of six members of the Walton family is roughly equal to the combined net worth of the poorest 30 percent of all Americans.

All over the country, independent retailers are going out of business because they cannot compete with Wal-Mart and their super cheap Chinese products.  Often communities will give Wal-Mart huge tax breaks just to move in to their areas.  But what many communities dont take into account is that the introduction of a Wal-Mart is often absolutely devastating to small businesses.

    A study of small and rural towns in Iowa showed lost sales for local businesses ranging from -17.2% in small towns to -61.4% in rural areas, amounting to a total dollar loss of $2.46 BILLION over a 13-year period.

When we buy stuff made by people working for slave labor wages in China, we destroy good paying American jobs and we make America poorer.  This is a point that I have tried to make over and over.

Wal-Mart often tells one thing to the public and then does another thing in private.  Sadly, the truth is that Wal-Mart does not care about U.S. manufacturing jobs.  Wal-Mart just wants to get products as cheaply as they possibly can, and most of the time that means getting them from China.

Just check out this first-hand testimony from an 81-year-old retired apparel manufacturer.

    I was president of the Southwestern Apparel Manufacturers Association. There was a meeting sometime between 1985 and 1990. Walmart had contacted our organization and asked if they could meet with us at our beautiful Apparel Mart we had here in Dallas, which has now been razed, because all the independent merchants dont exist that used to come to it. Two people from Walmart came down and they said they were going to be sourcing goods from overseas and we would have to meet those prices for consumer products and to get ready for itwe are going to be sourcing the world. Walmart was the only company that came out and said this.

    It was sort of shocking: I was selling them some merchandise at the time. On the back of their trucks it was saying Bring it Back to America! They had the big keep it in America program going at that time on the big signs in the stores. Meanwhile when I reminded the buyer of that, she told me, that is just for domestic consumption, were going to buy at the cheapest we can anywhere on earth.

As I have written about previously, the United States has lost more than 56,000 manufacturing facilities since 2001.

We are losing millions of good jobs that cannot be replaced.  If you can believe it, the United States has actually lost an average of about 50,000 manufacturing jobs a month since China joined the World Trade Organization in 2001.

Last year, the U.S. trade deficit with China was the biggest trade deficit that one nation has had with another nation in the history of the world, and Wal-Mart played a huge role in that.

In fact, Wal-Mart has actually been forcing some U.S. manufacturers to pack up and move overseas.  The following is from a recent article by Amy Traub.

    Walmarts market power is so immense that the even the largest suppliers must comply with its demands for lower and lower prices because they cannot afford to have their goods taken off its shelves. Companies that used to manufacture products in the United States, from Levis jeans to lock maker Master Lock, were pressured to shut their U.S. factories and moved manufacturing abroad to meet Walmarts demand for low prices.

Unfortunately, the vast wealth that Wal-Mart is sucking out of our communities is not put back into our communities.  The profits are funneled out to Wal-Mart executives and shareholders.  We may enjoy the low prices, but very little of the money that we give to Wal-Mart gets recycled in our local areas.

In the old days, you could actually support a family selling electronics or running a general store.  But you cant support a family working at Wal-Mart.  The vast majority of the jobs that Wal-Mart creates are very low paying.  Large numbers of Wal-Mart employees are actually on welfare, and this is part of the reason why we have seen such an explosion in the number of the working poor in America.

At this point, more than 40 percent of all jobs in America are low wage jobs and the middle class is rapidly disappearing.

If we do not support American jobs and American manufacturers they will continue to go away and the welfare rolls in this country will continue to explode.

There is not going to be any prosperity in this country without jobs.  Unfortunately, most Americans simply do not understand how good jobs are being systematically destroyed in America every single day.

The path that America is headed on today is only going to end in complete and total disaster.  We are being transformed from a wealthy nation into a poor nation.  In the end, we will be dominated by a very tiny elite and everyone else will either be among the working poor or will be totally dependent on the government.

Our system is supposed to be about open, honest competition.  But that is not what Wal-Mart is about.  Wal-Mart is about crushing small businesses and manufacturers here in America and getting us all to buy their super cheap Chinese-made goods.

Shame on Wal-Mart.  They are an un-American disgrace.

So what do all of you think about Wal-Mart?  Please feel free to post a comment with your thoughts below.

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## donnay



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## oyarde

I try not to use it , mostly due to #12,13,14 &17 on the list . I have found that between my two cheaper local grocers ( where I buy meat , I do not harvest ) , The Dollar Store ( where I get household clening , personal hygene type stuff ) , my local Farm Store ( oil , bird seed , ammo )etc , and the local Big Box Hardware store ( sales ) , I can get anything sold at Wal Mart as cheap or cheaper , better quality , better service , easier access , rain checks  etc etc

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## BucksforPaul



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## Cutlerzzz

Walmart is so awesome. I mean, they're revenue is greater than most countries GDP, and the average American family spends 8% of their income there a year. What a success story.

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## Texan4Life

lol didnt expect to find WM hate here... goods are gonna be made in china no matter who buys them. If it was a mom and pop store the only difference is you would pay more for the same chinese stuff.  This article is so full of crap I just don't feel like going through it all with responses.

walmart is a benefit to the US economy. 

It is .gov policy that is the enemy.

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## GunnyFreedom

If I had to weigh in on this, I'd say that WalMart isn't destroying America, rather they are a symptom of the apathy and the monetary and intellectual poverty that is in fact what's destroying America.

It's not the stuffy head, runny nose and the sneezing that kill a million Americans every year, it's the influenza virus.  WalMart is just the stuffy head, runny nose and the sneezing.

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## GunnyFreedom

> lol didnt expect to find WM hate here... goods are gonna be made in china no matter who buys them. *If it was a mom and pop store the only difference is you would pay more for the same chinese stuff.*  This article is so full of crap I just don't feel like going through it all with responses.
> 
> walmart is a benefit to the US economy. 
> 
> It is .gov policy that is the enemy.


Emphasis added.

You don't actually believe that do you?

ETA - specifically, Mom and Pop stores don't generally have the volume or the turnover to make Chinese imports worthwhile once you calculate shipping cost and time.  By and large, _actual_ Mom and Pop stores do tend a lot more towards "Made in the USA" goods because at the volume they turn over it's legitimately cheaper for them to buy from those suppliers, or the price point is so close that they go with American manufactured goods figuring that the loyalty factor will compensate for the 0.1% difference in cost.

Also, a lot of times the same model of the same brand when sold at WalMart vs a traditional retailer is a different product.  I learned this first hand when doing research to get a brand that I was VP of the company for into WalMart.  This is particularly true of lawn mowers yard tractors and such.  WalMart demands so much high production at so much low pricing that companies that get shelfspace will often turn up a whole new factory or a new production line to produce equipment for sale at WalMart only, which factory or line gets equipped with much cheaper component parts, more less expensive automation leads to a poorer fit and finish, the list goes on.

I can't recall the brand offhand, (was it John Deere? Honestly don't remember) but I know that more than one gas-powered yard equipment manufacturer actually pulled out of WalMart because the necessity of having a "WalMart line" of their same products more cheaply manufactured was damaging their reputation.

I mean, I'm decidedly *not* a WalMart hater, even though I wonder if its economic benefit locally and nationally is often overstated by it's supporters, just as it's damage is overstated by it's detractors.

The statement I take issue with is that you get the exact same Chinese stuff at a Mom & Pop as you do at a WalMart.  As someone who has seen the supply side personally and even worked to get a product that we manufactured bought by WalMart, that statement is simply not so.

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## Zatch

...

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## Zatch

Full episode here:

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## Zatch

Full episode here:

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## Zatch

Full episode here:

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## chudrockz

I absolutely, positively ADORE Wal Mart. Wal Mart is the single biggest reason why a normal, middle class couple like my wife and I, can have a standard of living probably at least 25% greater than we could in its absence.

And as far as the price thing goes, YES, Wal Mart is waaaaaaaay cheaper in my personal experience than "mom and pop shops". WAY cheaper.

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## donnay

> 


*"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to BucksforPaul again."* 

ROFLMAO!  My morning coffee is all over the monitor now!  That was a great start for my morning!!

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## donnay

> lol didnt expect to find WM hate here... goods are gonna be made in china no matter who buys them. If it was a mom and pop store the only difference is you would pay more for the same chinese stuff.  This article is so full of crap I just don't feel like going through it all with responses.
> 
> walmart is a benefit to the US economy. 
> 
> It is .gov policy that is the enemy.


Just remember that when Wal-Marx is the only place to buy your Chinese-made, Indonesia-made, Taiwan-made, got-to-have junk.

Wal-Marx works with the government, that is what most of the Libertarians just don't get.  The monopoly is made, because government protects them.

*Flashback:*

*Wal-Mart, DoD clarify RFID plans: suppliers begin race to present plans for RFID implementation* 

Wal-Mart Stores Inc. will take a phased approach to rolling out RFID technology in its supply chain. At meetings with suppliers and technology vendors in Bentonville, Ark., in November, the retailer said it planned to start using RFID in its Texas facilities first.

Wal-Mart's top 100 suppliers must present implementation plans by February 2004.

Shortly after the Wal-Mart meetings, the Department of Defense held its first RFID conference for suppliers and technology vendors, where it further outlined its plans for implementing RFID with its 43,000 suppliers. *Wal-Mart is working closely with DoD to develop its RFID strategies*.

"We've made it clear we do intend to implement this technology," said Alan Estevez, assistant undersecretary of defense, supply chain integration. "And we're willing to work with [technology providers] on how best to implement it."

Both Wal-Mart and DoD have indicated they will support the upcoming Electronic Product Code (EPC) Class 1, Version 2 RFID air interface protocol, which had yet to be finalized at press time. EPCglobal, the industry organization managing commercialization of EPC, expected to have the final specification available in the first quarter of 2004.

"Class 1, Version 2 will be a foundation protocol for all passive UHF tags," said Sue Hutchinson, product manager at EPCglobal U.S. "It will support tags from Class 0 to Class 2, all from a single protocol."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_112563026/


Hillary Clinton was on the Wal-Marx board of directors for 6 years and it wasn't until her 2008 campaign that it came out, for most people to know about it.

*Present day:*

Here's a nice little incentive Hillary pushed as secretary of state--meanwhile plenty of Americans are out of work.

*Walmart, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and the Inter-American Development Bank Partner to Change the Lives of Women and Youth*


Retailer invests $12 million to improve lives and communities in Latin America and the Caribbean

CARTAGENA, Colombia, April 13, 2012  U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Walmart announced today an initiative that will empower up to 55,000 women in Latin America and the Caribbean to build businesses and take control of their futures. In addition, Walmart will work with the Inter-American Development Bank (IDB) to provide job training and help with job placement for nearly 1 million young people in these regions, at least half of whom will be young women.

These partnerships will not only change the lives of the women well reach, but also improve the lives of their families and their entire communities, said Walmart President and CEO Mike Duke, who joined Secretary Clinton at the Sixth Summit of the Americas in Cartagena, Colombia today. When we launched our Global Womens Economic Empowerment Initiative last year, we committed to helping women around the world live better. By working with leaders like Secretary Clinton, were bringing that mission to life.

Walmarts $12 million commitment to Secretary Clintons International Fund for Women and Girls, the IDB and other NGOs includes:

The WEAmericas Small Grants Initiative

In partnership with Secretary Clintons International Fund for Women and Girls, the Walmart Foundation has pledged $1.5 million to help create the WEAmericas Small Grants Initiative. Over the next two years, the effort will support the dreams of up to 55,000 potential women entrepreneurs in rural and indigenous communities throughout the Americas.

Vital Voices Women Entrepreneur Support

The Walmart Foundation is donating $500,000 to Vital Voices, an NGO committed to unleashing the leadership potential of extraordinary women around the world. The grant will provide long-term support for women hoping to grow small businesses.

The New Employment Opportunities (NEO) Initiative

Walmart will translate and provide its Walmart Brazil Social Retail School curriculum to the IDBs NEO Initiative. The retailer also committed to continuing its partnership in Brazil with governments and NGOs for the next five years, graduating thousands of new students. Combined, this support is valued at more than $10 million.

The IDB expects its NEO Initiative to empower roughly 1 million young people to take control of their futures over the next 10 years. At least half of those served will be young women.

As a founding member of our NEO initiative, Walmart is demonstrating a visionary commitment to training youth in our region for 21st century jobs and promoting greater gender balance, said IDB President Luis Alberto Moreno. We are proud to have Walmart as a partner and hope their example will serve as an inspiration to other companies to join the NEO Initiative.

Todays announcement supports key goals under Walmarts Global Womens Economic Empowerment Initiative, launched in September 2011. For more information on this initiative, visit www.walmartstores.com/women. 

http://www.walmartstores.com/pressroom/news/10869.aspx


So you all go right on out and support Wal-Marx because "always low prices" means they will eventually be the only game in town, and then you will be beholden to them just like government wants you to be.

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## specsaregood

> Just remember that when Wal-Marx is the only place to buy your Chinese-made, Indonesia-made, Taiwan-made, got-to-have junk.
> Wal-Marx works with the government, that is what most of the Libertarians just don't get.  The monopoly is made, because government protects them.


The problem is that this article is written from a success is a bad thing perspective which automatically triggers emotions in lefties to like the article and hate walmart; but has the exact opposite effect on more liberty minded folk.    Gunny is correct, the article completely misses the point and distracts the reader with the symptoms , not the virus that caused them.

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## chudrockz

That's the horrific claim that is made, but my local Wal Mart has been around for many, many years and there are still tons of other places to shop. Granted, in most of them you can get virtually the same things as at Wal Mart (but with less variety), you just pay 35% more for them. What a bargain!

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## soulcyon

so Whats wrong with Walmart?

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## Sola_Fide

Something about the tone of that article rubbed me the wrong way.  But I agree that every penny that WalMart makes through coercive corporatism is evil.

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## donnay

> The problem is that this article is written from a success is a bad thing perspective which automatically triggers emotions in lefties to like the article and hate walmart; but has the exact opposite effect on more liberty minded folk.    Gunny is correct, the article completely misses the point and distracts the reader with the symptoms , not the virus that caused them.


See I do not call this success--  _"Walmart’s market power is so immense that the even the largest suppliers must comply with its demands for lower and lower prices because they cannot afford to have their goods taken off its shelves. Companies that used to manufacture products in the United States, from Levi’s jeans to lock maker Master Lock, were pressured to shut their U.S. factories and moved manufacturing abroad to meet Walmart’s demand for low prices."_

So there is no way, a Mom and Pop can even dream to do the same.  Consequently, they are left out in the cold, which makes them go bankrupt.

The article also goes on to say, _"At this point, more than 40 percent of all jobs in America are low wage jobs and the middle class is rapidly disappearing."_

This is eating our sustenance along with government's help.  This isn't capitalism it is crony-capitalism, and I do not know why it is hard for people to understand that?   A good many of us know what the agenda is; to take this country (economically) and knock it down to third-world status.  Consumerism, is one of the 'isms' that is taking this country down even faster, the problem is our economy is so bad that people run to Wal-Marx because they think they can save a buck. In the end, they lose and we all lose.

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## specsaregood

> See I do not call this success--


#1-#9 are all a tale of success.  You have to get halfway through the list #10 before you get to anything remotely negative.

And wtf is the deal with #8?  Does that make any sense?  Does walmart have their own tanks and air force?

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## GunnyFreedom

> See I do not call this success--  _"Walmart’s market power is so immense that the even the largest suppliers must comply with its demands for lower and lower prices because they cannot afford to have their goods taken off its shelves. Companies that used to manufacture products in the United States, from Levi’s jeans to lock maker Master Lock, were pressured to shut their U.S. factories and moved manufacturing abroad to meet Walmart’s demand for low prices."_
> 
> So there is no way, a Mom and Pop can even dream to do the same.  Consequently, they are left out in the cold, which makes them go bankrupt.
> 
> The article also goes on to say, _"At this point, more than 40 percent of all jobs in America are low wage jobs and the middle class is rapidly disappearing."_
> 
> This is eating our sustenance along with government's help.  This isn't capitalism it is crony-capitalism, and I do not know why it is hard for people to understand that?   A good many of us know what the agenda is; to take this country (economically) and knock it down to third-world status.  Consumerism, is one of the 'isms' that is taking this country down even faster, the problem is our economy is so bad that people run to Wal-Marx because they think they can save a buck. In the end, they lose and we all lose.


Still just a *symptom* of the core problem rather than the problem itself.

Congress is so beholden to corporatist special interests it's like they bend themselves over the desk and drop trau and scream "GIMME that biiiiiig money!" You think a giant like WalMart is going to turn and look the other way?

WalMart doesn't have to pressure government to do anything.  They probably have 400 Congress-critters lined up on their knees every day applying lip gloss.  Of course they are going to take advantage, the shareholders would fire the board for gross incompetence if they didn't.

WalMart is not the problem, it's just the symptom.  The problems run much deeper.

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## NoOneButPaul

> so Whats wrong with Walmart?


Nothing... people just love finding corporate boogymans.

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## fisharmor

> so Whats wrong with Walmart?


It's buried inside of a fortress of box stores, the parking lot is impossible to get in and out of, the lines are always 20-30 people long, they give me $#@! about IDs and signing things the 2-3 times a year I buy ammo there, they have literally not one single other thing I want to buy that I can't get somewhere else that respects my time, and when I'm leaving I have to contend with three lights to get out to a main thoroughfare which are constantly backed up.

Seriously, if Target sold WWB I would never set foot in the place.

Actually, I get aggravated enough going to Target.  Actually, I get aggravated enough going to box stores at all to make it an unpleasant experience for me.
I don't know why the rest of the world flocks to these places.  As soon as I set foot in one the animator draws one of those black scribbles over my head.

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## GunnyFreedom

> #1-#9 are all a tale of success.  You have to get halfway through the list #10 before you get to anything remotely negative.
> 
> And wtf is the deal with #8?  Does that make any sense?  Does walmart have their own tanks and air force?


I am being blatantly disallowed from repping you, signature notwithstanding.

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## Contumacious

> [B]Is Wal-Mart Destroying America? 20 Facts About Wal-Mart That Will Absolutely Shock You.


I believe you meant to say that Obama, Pelosi and Benedict Roberts will destroy the nation.

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## GunnyFreedom

> It's buried inside of a fortress of box stores, the parking lot is impossible to get in and out of, the lines are always 20-30 people long, they give me $#@! about IDs and signing things the 2-3 times a year I buy ammo there, they have literally not one single other thing I want to buy that I can't get somewhere else that respects my time, and when I'm leaving I have to contend with three lights to get out to a main thoroughfare which are constantly backed up.
> 
> Seriously, if Target sold WWB I would never set foot in the place.
> 
> Actually, I get aggravated enough going to Target.  Actually, I get aggravated enough going to box stores at all to make it an unpleasant experience for me.
> I don't know why the rest of the world flocks to these places.  As soon as I set foot in one the animator draws one of those black scribbles over my head.


White Wheat Bread?

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## Austrian Econ Disciple

Wal-Mart destroying America? Shame on me, I thought it was the Military Industrial Complex, the Medical Complex & Guilds, the Banking monopolies and cartels, and the avarice, corruption, and power-engorged Fascists that run up and down the chain of American Government's. Sure, Wal-Mart isn't innocent, but it's not either this rapacious monster that we must be shielded from with such priority you suppose. 

Never mind the fact that your OP is laced with protectionist drivel. If China is going to impoverish their people to subsidize our consumption, I'm not going to raise hell considering we have our own pressing issues domestically we must deal with first. 

Here, let Robert Murphy school you and AF. 




Pay close attention to the parts about 'trade deficits'.

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## tod evans

When each of us make the choice to purchase goods from overseas we are consciously supporting the cheapest labor pool.

The USA was built with American labor.

The fallacy that we as a nation can successfully support ourselves with our intellectual superiority and military might is showing itself in spades the last decade.

From a dumb-ass country boy perspective "we" need to make stuff here...All of the arguments back and forth about different views of economics and global market places boils down to the US labor pool must compete for manufacturing dollars with China/India and other third world countries.

It makes sense to me that getting "our government" completely out of business would be a good thing, no more welfare support for wal-mart workers, and no more protectionist foreign policies for out of country manufacturing, if Americans choose to buy foreign made goods then Americans need to deal with the starving labor pool right here at home. Thinking that somehow with enough subsidies ol' Billy-Bob who's only really able to perform assembly line work can elevate himself to the ranks of stock-broker or doctor is nothing more than smoke-n-mirrors. 

Fact is there's a good portion of Americans who are only qualified for production/farm labor and service type employment and as things sit they're being paid by all of us to produce nothing but baby's. We have all made these choices and we've gotta figure out how to deal with them.

Many here want the "deals" from cheap labor.... Okay, then realistically we need to deal with the segment of society that has no work because of those "deals"..... Wars aren't the only thing breaking our economy, we need to get back to making "stuff" here and if that means 30-40% of our population living in squalor so as to provide competitive labor without government subsidies at least we could see the honest effect of government and business as it is.

We're broke, been printing phony money for decades and it's all going to sort itself out whether or not we like it... I'm worried for my son.

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## donnay

Soon we will have to rename our country--The United Wal-Marx of America.  They are in every state, town and city across the country.

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## chudrockz

So we have a company, Wal Mart, which has imo done more good for people in the manner of raising their standard of living and comfort, than any other entity EVER in the history of the planet, and supposed lovers of freedom want to light torches and grab pitchforks?

Color me ultra confused.

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## tod evans

> So we have a company, Wal Mart, which has imo done more good for people in the manner of raising their standard of living and comfort, than any other entity EVER in the history of the planet, and supposed lovers of freedom want to light torches and grab pitchforks?
> 
> Color me ultra confused.


Not I.

I'm for getting "the government" out of business, the wal-marts and general motors, banks etc. would all get sorted out soon enough.

Wal-mart isn't the problem they just figured out how to profit from the problem.

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## donnay

> So we have a company, Wal Mart, which has imo done more good for people in the manner of raising their standard of living and comfort, than any other entity EVER in the history of the planet, and supposed lovers of freedom want to light torches and grab pitchforks?
> 
> Color me ultra confused.


Raise the standard of living?  Are you insane?  Have you seen those Wal-Marx pictures of the customers?  Those pictures are systemic as to why so many foreigners sit back and call us a nation of lazy slobs.  Not to mention, Carnivals have less freak show attractions!  Standard of living?  









You can't make this stuff up!  Oh No.  American is comedy central, and the ones laughing are the ones who are going to put you in the poor house and take everything you have.  What will you think of the standard of living then?  Worth living?

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## tfurrh

> So we have a company, Wal Mart, which has imo done more good for people in the manner of raising their standard of living and comfort.....Color me ultra confused.


Color ME ultra confused.

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## PaulConventionWV

> *Is Wal-Mart Destroying America? 20 Facts About Wal-Mart That Will Absolutely Shock You*
> 
> Michael Snyder
> The Economic Collapse
> Wednesday, July 4, 2012
> 
> America absolutely loves Wal-Mart.  100 million customers visit Wal-Mart every single week in this country.  But is Wal-Mart good for America?  That is a question that most people never stop and ask.  Most of us love shopping in big, clean stores that are packed with super cheap merchandise, but the truth is that Wal-Mart is destroying America in a lot of ways.  As you will see below, Wal-Mart has destroyed tens of thousands of small businesses and countless manufacturing jobs over the past couple of decades.  Wal-Mart has become a gigantic retail behemoth that sells five times more stuff than any other retailer in the United States.  Unfortunately, about 85 percent of all the stuff sold at Wal-Mart is made overseas.  What that is costing the U.S. economy in terms of lost jobs and lost revenue is incalculable.  But Wal-Mart is a perfect example of where our economic system is headed.  Our economy is becoming completely and totally dominated by highly centralized monolithic predator corporations that ruthlessly crush all competition and that will stoop to just about anything in order to cut costs.  In the future, will we all be working for gigantic communal entities that funnel all of the wealth and economic rewards to a very tiny elite?  That sounds very much like how communist China works, and red-blooded Americans should want no part of that.  America is supposed to be about free enterprise and competition and working together to build up this country, and Wal-Mart is destroying all of that.
> 
> The following are 20 facts about Wal-Mart that will absolutely shock you….
> ...


That whole post sounded like a Mitt Romney speech.

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## chudrockz

So, if I get the hate right, the biggest gripe of at least one poster against Wal Mart is that, out of one hundred million weekly customers, 1% of them are obese and .0005% of them are freaks, Wal Mart is evil and out to destroy humanity.

Got it.

----------


## tfurrh

> So, if I get the hate right, the biggest gripe of at least one poster against Wal Mart is that, out of one hundred million weekly customers, 1% of them are obese and .0005% of them are freaks, Wal Mart is evil and out to destroy humanity.
> 
> Got it.


I don't believe you do....

----------


## specsaregood

> So, if I get the hate right, the biggest gripe of at least one poster against Wal Mart is that, out of one hundred million weekly customers, 1% of them are obese and .0005% of them are freaks, Wal Mart is evil and out to destroy humanity.
> 
> Got it.


I'm not gonna hate on walmart but if you think those % are even remotely close to accurate, I have to question if you have ever been to a walmart or are possibly blind?

----------


## chudrockz

I go to Wal Mart almost daily. I'm a homeowner, and as such can scarcely afford to shop elsewhere.

I got our grill at Wal Mart and we ate like kings yesterday with meat purchased at Wal Mart.

Don't for the life of me get all this hate for something which has done so much good.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Something about the tone of that article rubbed me the wrong way.  But I agree that every penny that WalMart makes through coercive corporatism is evil.


I don't think it was the tone, I think it was the language.  It was horrendous.  The whole article acted like having a lot of employees and generating a lot of revenue is a bad thing, and that's virtually all it focused on.  The wording was generic and lathered in bias.  There was no recognition of the fact that Wal Mart offers good services and good products.  If this was a libertarian article in any sense of the word, all of the "Wal Mart makes SO much money" crap would be completely left out.

----------


## tfurrh

Has anyone seen the Jib-Jab short, Big Box Mart?

----------


## donnay

> I go to Wal Mart almost daily. I'm a homeowner, and as such can scarcely afford to shop elsewhere.
> 
> *I got our grill at Wal Mart and we ate like kings yesterday with meat purchased at Wal Mart.
> *
> Don't for the life of me get all this hate for something which has done so much good.

----------


## chudrockz

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/...ble-stuff.html

----------


## chudrockz

> 


Meh. We actually ate two kinds of brats, steaks, burgers, chicken skewers, and parmesan crusted pork tenderloin.

But I guess people were better off prior to Wal Mart when only the super rich could eat like that.

----------


## donnay

> I don't think it was the tone, I think it was the language.  It was horrendous.  The whole article acted like having a lot of employees and generating a lot of revenue is a bad thing, and that's virtually all it focused on.  The wording was generic and lathered in bias.  There was no recognition of the fact that Wal Mart offers good services and good products.  If this was a libertarian article in any sense of the word, all of the "Wal Mart makes SO much money" crap would be completely left out.


Having a lot of employees doesn't necessarily mean a good thing.  The government has a lot of employees, just sayin'.

----------


## chudrockz

> Having a lot of employees doesn't necessarily mean a good thing.  The government has a lot of employees, just sayin'.


Wal Mart has no guns, and forces NO ONE to aquire things therein.

----------


## VoluntaryAmerican

I bought two boxes of condoms at Walmart for $6 a piece. The same box is $15 a piece at my local pharmacy CVS.

Needless to say, those two boxes for the price of one at another store made me happy and will make me happy - hardly evil.

----------


## tod evans

> I go to Wal Mart almost daily. I'm a homeowner, and as such can scarcely afford to shop elsewhere.
> 
> I got our grill at Wal Mart and we ate like kings yesterday with meat purchased at Wal Mart.
> 
> Don't for the life of me get all this hate for something which has done so much good.


And when your job is "outsourced" rest assured Wal-Mart will have an opening.

Get government out of the mix and there's a good chance a hoard of unemployed starving displaced workers would have taken your kings feast to feed their families.

Wal-Mart isn't the bad-guy, they're smart, showing more and more profit with every job that leaves the country. 

Our government is the bad-guy supporting those who are not working when we're broke.

Take away welfare/medicare/section 8 housing and food-stamps........Let's see how well the Wal-Mart business model does.

----------


## Cowlesy

You know why I cannot get upset at all about WalMart/WalMarx/The Chinese Embassy, is because you have a choice to not go there.  There is no compulsory law that says you must shop at WalMart.  Now the finger-wagger is going to retort with, "But you're forced into it because it causes all the Mom/Pop shops to shutdown" but speaking from my experience living around at least four WalMarts in my lifetime, there *still* are other places to go shop.  In the rural town in which I grew up that is a shell of its former self as all the heavy industry shutdown, there are still two alternative larger grocery stores, and lots of small shops for other goods likes clothes, Tractor Supply for all your lawn/garden stuff, even a heavy-discount grocer, a dollar general for cheap stuff.

So, all I see Walmart giving you, is another choice.  You can go there and get everything you want, or you can make a choice, and hit up two to three smaller stores.

If people would reduce the clutter in their lives and stop buying every piece of useless plastic crap glow-in-the-dark can opener, clip-on-to-your-lawn-chair beer bottle holster, tiki torch, lawn gnome piece of junk, there'd simply be less of this stuff out there.

But at least you have a choice to buy all that junk.  If you can't control your own choices, don't burden the rest of us with the angst of your decisions.

Edit: My post isn't directed toward anyone specifically, just my sweepingly generalized facepalm at society writ large.

----------


## seraphson

> If I had to weigh in on this, I'd say that WalMart isn't destroying America, rather they are a symptom of the apathy and the monetary and intellectual poverty that is in fact what's destroying America.
> 
> It's not the stuffy head, runny nose and the sneezing that kill a million Americans every year, it's the influenza virus.  WalMart is just the stuffy head, runny nose and the sneezing.


I believe this is a very good point. I believe if we had an actual sound currency and a truly free market system (I know, broken record) then perhaps China wouldn't be the black hole of federal reserve notes and wouldn't be the top producer of so many low quality/cheap products. Of course as we all know the tides are turning and the Fed itself is becoming (or is?) the largest purchaser of US debt. What can I say to that and where will it lead? Well. All the Americans will have their wish of not having everything made in China anymore come true. Let's just hope when that does happen we will then finally go back to sound money.

----------


## Henry Rogue

> *Is Wal-Mart Destroying America? 20 Facts About Wal-Mart That Will Absolutely Shock You*
> 
> Michael Snyder
> The Economic Collapse
> Wednesday, July 4, 2012
> 
> America absolutely loves Wal-Mart.  100 million customers visit Wal-Mart every single week in this country.  But is Wal-Mart good for America?  That is a question that most people never stop and ask.  Most of us love shopping in big, clean stores that are packed with super cheap merchandise, but the truth is that Wal-Mart is destroying America in a lot of ways.  As you will see below, Wal-Mart has destroyed tens of thousands of small businesses and countless manufacturing jobs over the past couple of decades.  Wal-Mart has become a gigantic retail behemoth that sells five times more stuff than any other retailer in the United States.  Unfortunately, about 85 percent of all the stuff sold at Wal-Mart is made overseas.  What that is costing the U.S. economy in terms of lost jobs and lost revenue is incalculable.  But Wal-Mart is a perfect example of where our economic system is headed.  Our economy is becoming completely and totally dominated by highly centralized monolithic predator corporations that ruthlessly crush all competition and that will stoop to just about anything in order to cut costs.  In the future, will we all be working for gigantic communal entities that funnel all of the wealth and economic rewards to a very tiny elite?  That sounds very much like how communist China works, and red-blooded Americans should want no part of that.  America is supposed to be about free enterprise and competition and working together to build up this country, and Wal-Mart is destroying all of that.
> 
> The following are 20 facts about Wal-Mart that will absolutely shock you.
> ...


Are you proposing tariffs?

----------


## chudrockz

> And when your job is "outsourced" rest assured Wal-Mart will have an opening.
> 
> Get government out of the mix and there's a good chance a hoard of unemployed starving displaced workers would have taken your kings feast to feed their families.
> 
> Wal-Mart isn't the bad-guy, they're smart, showing more and more profit with every job that leaves the country. 
> 
> Our government is the bad-guy supporting those who are not working when we're broke.
> 
> Take away welfare/medicare/section 8 housing and food-stamps........Let's see how well the Wal-Mart business model does.


IF my job is outsourced, I may well consider applying. I'd be proud to work there.

In the meantime, far too much of what I'm reading here this morning sounds like protectionist drivel. The sort of "the automobile is the scourge of the earth because it's putting buggy makers out of work" type nonsense I'd expect to read on some socialist website, but disappointing on one supposedly dedicated to liberty.

----------


## tfurrh

> IF my job is outsourced, I may well consider applying. I'd be proud to work there.
> 
> In the meantime, far too much of what I'm reading here this morning sounds like protectionist drivel. The sort of "the automobile is the scourge of the earth because it's putting buggy makers out of work" type nonsense I'd expect to read on some socialist website, but disappointing on one supposedly dedicated to liberty.


Man, with all due respect, you don't understand the big picture behind Walmart. None of are complaining about what you think we're complaining about. Here's a nice link that describes what's going on behind the scenes with big corporations & our gov't:

http://dougwead.wordpress.com/2011/1...treet-protest/




> Let’s say you are a young couple, newly married, anxious to get your piece of the American dream. And let’s say you decide to open your own hamburger stand.
> 
> Your first obstacle will be a maze of federal regulations. They are all well intended, helping out the disabled, protecting the environment, providing for workers’ health. The problem is that there are too many of them and they cost too much. 
> 
> When I worked in the Bush Senior White House I saw the major companies come in and lobby for these REGS. They wanted them to be required for small businesses too, even businesses with five employees. Why? Because it would knock out the Mom and Pop operations who couldn’t afford them. By driving up costs they could assure that they would have a monopoly on hamburgers. But let’s say your parents mortgage their house and get you the start up money to pass that test.
> 
> Second, you will find that your competition controls the meat industry in this country. It is not just that they have volume but rather that their political donations assure that their friends get appointed to government meat inspection agencies. Sometimes, the very people who worked for the company will cross over and become a regulator. You must be prepared for some hair-raising conflicts of interest.
> 
> Third, your tax dollars will go to subsidize your competitor, the big hamburger company. Are you aware of this? This could be hundreds of millions of dollars. 
> ...


more at link

----------


## tod evans

> IF my job is outsourced, I may well consider applying. I'd be proud to work there.
> 
> In the meantime, far too much of what I'm reading here this morning sounds like protectionist drivel. The sort of "the automobile is the scourge of the earth because it's putting buggy makers out of work" type nonsense I'd expect to read on some socialist website, but disappointing on one supposedly dedicated to liberty.


I'm in no way advocating socialism, "our government" has put all of us in an unsustainable position and when things finally work themselves out it'll be ugly.

Like I said earlier; "I'm worried for my son."

----------


## RonRules

On a large scale overall, Walmart improves US efficiency, reduces inflation and actually saves energy. 

Each Walmart, compared to the hundreds of little individual shops it replaces makes better use of human labor and energy.

Walmart may be the greenest company in America, not because they occasionally install solar panels, but because their retail operations are run efficiently. Efficiency saves energy. Dollars saved is energy saved.

On the other hand, in some small rural areas and villages, a Walmart may reduce time and energy efficiency because people have to drive to the nearest Walmart, which may be 10-20 miles away. It also puts a local, efficient mom & pop and general stores shop out of business.

Overall Walmart does a lot of good for the country. They also bring in a lot of money from their operations in other countries. It's a net positive.

----------


## chudrockz

Wow, I just put some oil in my truck. I bought a five quart jug of it at Wal Mart. I suppose that makes me an evil SOB, because I could/ should have spent $5 more for that same oil at Jiffy Lube, or $10 more for it at a "mom and pop."

In the meantime, I have five, or ten, more dollars which I can spend somewhere else at my leisure. Maybe even a local bar for lunch.

Right after I stop back at Wal Mart and buy a completely superfluous video game.

Edit:  just noticed I'm actually getting some NEG reps on this thread! That's frappin' hilarious. I might have to get TWO video games instead!

----------


## fisharmor

> White Wheat Bread?


I suppose there's a chance a guy going by GunnyFreedom may never have seen this acronym....
Winchester "White Box".  The all-white box with the red lettering.
Generally the cheapest new cartridges available anywhere, and only at Wal-Mart.

----------


## KingNothing

Hating Wal-Mart is an unbelievably arrogant thing to do.  Their efficiency provides millions of Americans with goods they could not otherwise afford, thereby raising our standard of living.  Demonizing that is basically saying "hey, you poor people, you'd have to either accept worse products or go without, when we get rid of Wal-Mart, but so what?  DEAL WITH IT."

----------


## KingNothing

> Wow, I just put some oil in my truck. I bought a five quart jug of it at Wal Mart. I suppose that makes me an evil SOB, because I could/ should have spent $5 more for that same oil at Jiffy Lube, or $10 more for it at a "mom and pop."
> 
> In the meantime, I have five, or ten, more dollars which I can spend somewhere else at my leisure. Maybe even a local bar for lunch.



Hey, don't go and logically analyze this sort of thing!  Emotions rule here, not reason and economics!

----------


## tod evans

Agreed, So why not cut the subsidies that prop up their business model?

Let's see how those "billions" move around without welfare/food-stamps/medicare and section 8 housing.

The tax payer has been propping up outsourcing for decades, we don't need, nor can we afford to pay government "workers" let alone government "dependents".

I'd be interested to see how this all worked out on a level playing field..




> On a large scale overall, Walmart improves US efficiency, reduces inflation and actually saves energy. 
> 
> Each Walmart, compared to the hundreds of little individual shops it replaces makes better use of human labor and energy.
> 
> Walmart may be the greenest company in America, not because they occasionally install solar panels, but because their retail operations are run efficiently. Efficiency saves energy. Dollars saved is energy saved.
> 
> On the other hand, in some small rural areas and villages, a Walmart may reduce time and energy efficiency because people have to drive to the nearest Walmart, which may be 10-20 miles away. It also puts a local, efficient mom & pop and general stores shop out of business.
> 
> Overall Walmart does a lot of good for the country. They also bring in a lot of money from their operations in other countries. It's a net positive.

----------


## specsaregood

> Generally the cheapest new cartridges available anywhere, and only at Wal-Mart.


In most states, walmart doesnt sell ammunition in all states.

----------


## KingNothing

> Meh. We actually ate two kinds of brats, steaks, burgers, chicken skewers, and parmesan crusted pork tenderloin.
> 
> But I guess people were better off prior to Wal Mart when only the super rich could eat like that.



HOW DARE YOU ENJOY LIFE BY PURCHASING THINGS AT WAL-MART!  YOU SHOULD GO WITHOUT, YOU LOUSY PEST!

----------


## KingNothing

> Having a lot of employees doesn't necessarily mean a good thing.  The government has a lot of employees, just sayin'.



You're unbelievable.  You've got to be the worst, most irrational poster on this board.
The government employees people by literally stealing money from others.  Wal-Mart... ummm... doesn't do that?

----------


## fisharmor

> In most states, walmart doesnt sell ammunition in all states.


Yeah but the states where it isn't allowed don't count.

----------


## KingNothing

> But at least you have a choice to buy all that junk.  If you can't control your own choices, don't burden the rest of us with the angst of your decisions.


I do everything I can to avoid chains of all types.  I go without, rather than purchasing from such entities. But I also recognize that this is a privilege.  I have an ability to buy better, more expensive products, from non-corporate entities and not everyone is so lucky.  I do what I can to support Mom and Pop entrepreneurs while fully endorsing the ability of others to embrace economies of scale, increased efficiency and the lower overall prices that allow for greater enjoyment of life.

----------


## KingNothing

> So, if I get the hate right, the biggest gripe of at least one poster against Wal Mart is that, out of one hundred million weekly customers, 1% of them are obese and .0005% of them are freaks, Wal Mart is evil and out to destroy humanity.
> 
> Got it.


It's classest, arrogant, hateful, tripe.  It's pathetic.

----------


## Acala

Nine things to know about Walmart:

1. Walmart is not a social service agency
2. It is not Walmart's job to provide health care
3. It is not Walmart's job to redistribute income to achieve social justice
4. It is not Walmart's job to make monetary policy
5. It is not Walmart's job to make ANY government policy, including all the policies that favor big corporations
6. Walmart is not responsible for the cost of producing goods in China being less than in the USA
7. Walmart's job is to sell goods and make a profit doing it within the given system of laws, policies, and economic conditions
8. Walmart will not force you to work there or shop there.
9. Walmart will not shoot your dog, throw you in a rape cage, or even complain about your yard sign.

----------


## angelatc

> Walmart is so awesome. I mean, they're revenue is greater than most countries GDP, and the average American family spends 8% of their income there a year. What a success story.


Exactly.  What other business entity would meet with their competitors to announce their sales strategy, giving those competitors time to create an counter-strategy?  

Until the government tells me I have to buy my groceries at WalMart, I'm happy they're around.

----------


## pacu44

How much of their money comes from food stamps?

----------


## tod evans

Somebody please cover me on rep, I'm out.




> Nine things to know about Walmart:
> 
> 1. Walmart is not a social service agency
> 2. It is not Walmart's job to provide health care
> 3. It is not Walmart's job to redistribute income to achieve social justice
> 4. It is not Walmart's job to make monetary policy
> 5. It is not Walmart's job to make ANY government policy, including all the policies that favor big corporations
> 6. Walmart is not responsible for the cost of producing goods in China being less than in the USA
> 7. Walmart's job is to sell goods and make a profit doing it within the given system of laws, policies, and economic conditions
> ...

----------


## angelatc

> On a large scale overall, Walmart improves US efficiency, reduces inflation and actually saves energy. 
> 
> Each Walmart, compared to the hundreds of little individual shops it replaces makes better use of human labor and energy.
> 
> Walmart may be the greenest company in America, not because they occasionally install solar panels, but because their retail operations are run efficiently. Efficiency saves energy. Dollars saved is energy saved.
> 
> On the other hand, in some small rural areas and villages, a Walmart may reduce time and energy efficiency because people have to drive to the nearest Walmart, which may be 10-20 miles away. It also puts a local, efficient mom & pop and general stores shop out of business.
> 
> Overall Walmart does a lot of good for the country. They also bring in a lot of money from their operations in other countries. It's a net positive.



It's a HUGE positive.  Maybe the liberals have quashed it now, but one of my last college textbooks had 3 chapters on the methods that WalMart used to bring down their overhead costs.  They literally changed the way that all retailers do inventory management. 

And they did it by bringing a huge selection of goods to rural America - places that had never, ever had the option of buying this year's model TV off the shelf on a whim.  Before that, they were stuck with the electronics that small retailers bought at liquidation sales, sometimes sitting on a shelves for 2 and 3 years, unless they wanted to order from the Sears catalog.

Wal-Mart made their initial billions tapping into markets that other retailers said were not densely populated enough to be popular.  They didn't even start moving into the suburbs until the late '80's.

And they were actually one of our best hopes to get affordable medical care back in our local neighborhoods, but the liberal snobs didn't want anything to do with that.

----------


## oyarde

> I go to Wal Mart almost daily. I'm a homeowner, and as such can scarcely afford to shop elsewhere.
> 
> I got our grill at Wal Mart and we ate like kings yesterday with meat purchased at Wal Mart.
> 
> Don't for the life of me get all this hate for something which has done so much good.


 I would never buy meat at Wal Mart , I can get better prices at at least three local groceries and I know where that meat came from ,If I was not feeding others , I dunno ...

----------


## oyarde

> Wow, I just put some oil in my truck. I bought a five quart jug of it at Wal Mart. I suppose that makes me an evil SOB, because I could/ should have spent $5 more for that same oil at Jiffy Lube, or $10 more for it at a "mom and pop."
> 
> In the meantime, I have five, or ten, more dollars which I can spend somewhere else at my leisure. Maybe even a local bar for lunch.
> 
> Right after I stop back at Wal Mart and buy a completely superfluous video game.
> 
> Edit:  just noticed I'm actually getting some NEG reps on this thread! That's frappin' hilarious. I might have to get TWO video games instead!


I get mine at the farm store , $3 cheaper on sale , or same price , 5.1 sale $16.04

----------


## tfurrh

It is surprising how some people look at a state like Arkansas, and yet do not wonder about the so-called great fortunes headquartered there. Tyson, Wal-Mart, and J.B. Hunt Transport Services.

All scratching each others back.

----------


## oyarde

> White Wheat Bread?


 Winchester White Box , ( no racism intended  )

----------


## oyarde

It is the cheap stuff Glenn , but shoots well .

----------


## specsaregood

> It is surprising how some people look at a backward state like Arkansas, and yet do not wonder about the so-called great fortunes headquartered there. Tyson, Wal-Mart, and J.B. Hunt Transport Services.


Backward, interesting.  What is to wonder about?  Are "backward" people not capable of starting, running and working for successful businesses?

----------


## chudrockz

> Winchester White Box , ( no racism intended  )


The Winchester whitebox target stuff is nearly all I ever get for my Glock. Plenty of practice, thanks to Wal Mart's low prices!

----------


## oyarde

> I go to Wal Mart almost daily. I'm a homeowner, and as such can scarcely afford to shop elsewhere.
> 
> I got our grill at Wal Mart and we ate like kings yesterday with meat purchased at Wal Mart.
> 
> Don't for the life of me get all this hate for something which has done so much good.


For Farm stuff , oil , ammo etc I use Rural King , for Home stuff cash , I use Menards , Lowes , Home Depot in that order , at the fist two , I can routinely beat Wal Mart on price on sale and can get a rain check .

----------


## tfurrh

> Backward, interesting.  What is to wonder about?  Are "backward" people not capable of starting, running and working for successful businesses?


Maybe I didn't mean backward. You should look at the history of JB Hunt when the trucking industry was regulated - then 'deregulated'. Why do you think these companies headquartered in AR? AR was on the take big time from all kinds of subsidies.

----------


## oyarde

For Home stuff , credit , I use Home Depot , Lowes in that order .

----------


## tod evans

Did ya`ever stop to think that "backwards folks" portray that image on purpose?





> It is surprising how some people look at a backward state like Arkansas, and yet do not wonder about the so-called great fortunes headquartered there. Tyson, Wal-Mart, and J.B. Hunt Transport Services.
> 
> All scratching each others back.

----------


## tfurrh

> Did ya`ever stop to think that "backwards folks" portray that image on purpose?


Sorry that I derailed my own post by using that word. I took it out, it wasn't the point of my post. geez.

----------


## noxagol

If Americans weren't forced to pay for the largest, most expensive military the world has ever seen, for every 3rd, 4th, or 5th neighbor's meals, for their general living expenses because they can't/won't find a job, countless business subsidies, the retirement of tens of millions of other people, or for every other kids stuffy nose or warm forehead, they could work for far less money while still bringing home the same amount of money because they wouldn't be getting taxed so horrendously. 

This decrease in wages would make it better to produce in America versus overseas because they wouldn't have to ship everything over an ocean. It would also make it easier to get new shipments because it wouldn't be made in  place over 7000 miles away but maybe a few hundred. You could literally order something and get it next day or two days from now instead of a week or two weeks from now. All of this would conspire to make everyone much better off.

I work at walmart, the ones that are complaining of weirdos clearly never go to walmart or are incredible judgmental. Yes, there are weirdos, but not nearly as many as people make it out to seem.

----------


## specsaregood

> Maybe I didn't mean backward. You should look at the history of JB Hunt when the trucking industry was regulated - then 'deregulated'. Why do you think these companies headquartered in AR? AR was on the take big time from all kinds of subsidies.


No, I think you got your point across just fine with "backward".  Cuz you know corruption and getting on the subsidy teat is a flaw only in dem der backward folk.

----------


## oyarde

> It's a HUGE positive.  Maybe the liberals have quashed it now, but one of my last college textbooks had 3 chapters on the methods that WalMart used to bring down their overhead costs.  They literally changed the way that all retailers do inventory management. 
> 
> And they did it by bringing a huge selection of goods to rural America - places that had never, ever had the option of buying this year's model TV off the shelf on a whim.  Before that, they were stuck with the electronics that small retailers bought at liquidation sales, sometimes sitting on a shelves for 2 and 3 years, unless they wanted to order from the Sears catalog.
> 
> Wal-Mart made their initial billions tapping into markets that other retailers said were not densely populated enough to be popular.  They didn't even start moving into the suburbs until the late '80's.
> 
> And they were actually one of our best hopes to get affordable medical care back in our local neighborhoods, but the liberal snobs didn't want anything to do with that.


I remember Sears and Wards catalogs . Nothing cooler than looking through a pre WW 1 Roebuck

----------


## tfurrh

> No, I think you got your point across just fine with "backward".  Cuz you know corruption and getting on the subsidy teat is a flaw only in dem der backward folk.


Don't talk about Billy Clinton that way.

----------


## angelatc

> I remember Sears and Wards catalogs . Nothing coller than looking through a pre WW 1 Roebuck


Yes, the underwear sections!!!! 

but i remember banging my head when Sears announced they were ending their catalog distribution.  I knew is was the wrong call, because the internet was just coming into the mainstream.  They were probably the best equipped to cash in on the impending internet shopping boom, and instead they closed up shop?  Huge mistake, IMHO.

----------


## angelatc

> I work at walmart, the ones that are complaining of weirdos clearly never go to walmart or are incredible judgmental. Yes, there are weirdos, but not nearly as many as people make it out to seem.


When I was in high school I worked at a local Mom & Pop hardware store.  We had weirdos too.  I suspect that anybody who has ever worked retail knows that eccentricity isn't something that WalMart has cornered the market on.

----------


## Cowlesy

Think about it.

If we didn't have WalMart, there would be no PEOPLE OF WALMART email fwds.

----------


## TruthisTreason

I'll address one point ( too many to address in the whole article).

_#12 Tens of thousands of Wal-Mart employees and their children are enrolled in Medicaid and are dependent on the government for healthcare._

And if they didn't work at Wal-Mart, they'd work at some local, mom & pop grocery store and still be enrolled in Medicaid and dependent on the government for health care. OR WORSE, they wouldn't have a job!

----------


## noxagol

> I'll address one point ( too many to address in the whole article).
> 
> _#12 Tens of thousands of Wal-Mart employees and their children are enrolled in Medicaid and are dependent on the government for healthcare._
> 
> And if they didn't work at Wal-Mart, they'd work at some local, mom & pop grocery store and still be enrolled in Medicaid and dependent on the government for health care. OR WORSE, they wouldn't have a job!


Indeed. I think this is a jab at them not providing the ultimate in health insurance at no cost to their employees. They do have insurance and it's pretty damn cheap from what I hear unless you pick one of the retardo plans. Granted, its just my wife and I on the plan. My insurance costs half of what the insurance through her company costs.

----------


## Sam I am

I like wal-mart.  I shop there all the time.  

Yes, Walmart is large.  

Yes, walmart imports a lot of things from china.  

No, I really don't care.

----------


## Austrian Econ Disciple

> And when your job is "outsourced" rest assured Wal-Mart will have an opening.
> 
> Get government out of the mix and there's a good chance a hoard of unemployed starving displaced workers would have taken your kings feast to feed their families.
> 
> Wal-Mart isn't the bad-guy, they're smart, showing more and more profit with every job that leaves the country. 
> 
> Our government is the bad-guy supporting those who are not working when we're broke.
> 
> Take away welfare/medicare/section 8 housing and food-stamps........Let's see how well the Wal-Mart business model does.


Um, our economic woes are a product of poor policy and mass expropriation, leaving less and less resources in the commercial enterprise, vice the political. It's not just Welfare which is contributing to our calamity. The reason why Wal-Mart is not completely innocent is because they abuse local-Government power in their favor to disadvantage competitors. Still though, without that I still think Wal-Mart would be a large firm, just not as large as it is now. It is hardly evil, but they aren't an angel either.

----------


## specsaregood

> Still though, without that I still think Wal-Mart would be a large firm, just not as large as it is now. It is hardly evil, but they aren't an angel either.


If we had a non-fiat monetary system i'm not sure any of these big firms would be nearly as big as they are.  And every strip mall in america wouldnt' be composed of the same dozen chains.

----------


## tfurrh

> If we had a non-fiat monetary system i'm not sure any of these big firms would be nearly as big as they are.  And every strip mall in america wouldnt' be composed of the same dozen chains.


I think that as well.....unbackwardsly.
DEF EHT DNE
pǝɟ ǝɥʇ puǝ
END THE FED

----------


## Austrian Econ Disciple

> If we had a non-fiat monetary system i'm not sure any of these big firms would be nearly as big as they are.  And every strip mall in america wouldnt' be composed of the same dozen chains.


That's a reasonable expectation given enough time for trends towards equilibrium to emerge. We witness the same events in the late 1800s and early 1900s until the Progressive Era ushered in Fascism on a national scale.

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## KingNothing

I rated this thread as "terrible" because of the original post.  Many of the responses to it, though, have been awesome.

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## Suzanimal

I don't care for Walmart. It's just a pain in the butt getting in and out of there and I hate being treated like a criminal when I shop there. (receipt checkers at the door) I go there every couple of months and buy laundry detergent and misc household stuff but I usually try to avoid it. I go to the (locally owned) Asian Market for my groceries, the meat and produce are amazing and the prices are fantastic. Rib eye = 3.99lb!!! You have to buy the whole rib eye and it's not butchered but for 3.99lb it's worth the hassle. potatoes= 2.99/10 lbs, watermelons 2.99 - I could go on all day, they are super cheap on fresh foods. If you live in the Lilburn/Lawrenceville/Snellville area of Gwinnett County in GA, check em out (the Lilburn store is my favorite).

http://nsgifm.com/index.html

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## tod evans

Our government is broke, it's printing and borrowing money faster than it can disburse welfare/employee checks.

The problem isn't Wal-Mart, it's government.




> I'll address one point ( too many to address in the whole article).
> 
> _#12 Tens of thousands of Wal-Mart employees and their children are enrolled in Medicaid and are dependent on the government for healthcare._
> 
> And if they didn't work at Wal-Mart, they'd work at some local, mom & pop grocery store and still be enrolled in Medicaid and dependent on the government for health care. OR WORSE, they wouldn't have a job!

----------


## Barrex

> I think that as well.....unbackwardsly.
> DEF EHT DNE
> pǝɟ ǝɥʇ puǝ
> END THE FED


Do you need exorcist?
How did you make letters upside down?


I wasnt shocked. The bigger company is cheaper it becomes...

----------


## tfurrh

> Do you need exorcist?
> How did you make letters upside down?


fliptext.org, then copy/paste

----------


## Henry Rogue

I got no response for my question on post 51.  What is the purpose of the first post? Is the point to hate Walmart for being successful, driving out less efficient business and selling foreign products? I hope there’s more to it than that. Is the purpose to show that Walmart gains advantage through government force? If so it failed in that regard. What do you propose as a solution? Tariffs? Price controls? Unionization? Embargoes? Maybe the solution would be better served if the focus was on the cause, not the effect.  Has there ever been a private Monopoly that did not involve government in its creation? Prevention of imminent domain, Constitutional Amendment for the separation of economy and state, and deregulation, perhaps.

----------


## oyarde

> I don't care for Walmart. It's just a pain in the butt getting in and out of there and I hate being treated like a criminal when I shop there. (receipt checkers at the door) I go there every couple of months and buy laundry detergent and misc household stuff but I usually try to avoid it. I go to the (locally owned) Asian Market for my groceries, the meat and produce are amazing and the prices are fantastic. Rib eye = 3.99lb!!! You have to buy the whole rib eye and it's not butchered but for 3.99lb it's worth the hassle. potatoes= 2.99/10 lbs, watermelons 2.99 - I could go on all day, they are super cheap on fresh foods. If you live in the Lilburn/Lawrenceville/Snellville area of Gwinnett County in GA, check em out (the Lilburn store is my favorite).
> 
> http://nsgifm.com/index.html


gOOD JOB ON THE MEAT.

----------


## Henry Rogue

My fear is attacking Walmart will produce restrictions by government on Walmart, resulting in the eventual bailout of Walmart.  Because of course it is to big to fail (sarcasm).

----------


## ShowMeLiberty

> You know why I cannot get upset at all about WalMart/WalMarx/The Chinese Embassy, is because you have a choice to not go there.  There is no compulsory law that says you must shop at WalMart.  Now the finger-wagger is going to retort with, "But you're forced into it because it causes all the Mom/Pop shops to shutdown" but speaking from my experience living around at least four WalMarts in my lifetime, there *still* are other places to go shop.  In the rural town in which I grew up that is a shell of its former self as all the heavy industry shutdown, there are still two alternative larger grocery stores, and lots of small shops for other goods likes clothes, Tractor Supply for all your lawn/garden stuff, even a heavy-discount grocer, a dollar general for cheap stuff.
> 
> So, all I see Walmart giving you, is another choice.  You can go there and get everything you want, or you can make a choice, and hit up two to three smaller stores.
> 
> If people would reduce the clutter in their lives and stop buying every piece of useless plastic crap glow-in-the-dark can opener, clip-on-to-your-lawn-chair beer bottle holster, tiki torch, lawn gnome piece of junk, there'd simply be less of this stuff out there.
> 
> But at least you have a choice to buy all that junk.  If you can't control your own choices, don't burden the rest of us with the angst of your decisions.
> 
> Edit: My post isn't directed toward anyone specifically, just my sweepingly generalized facepalm at society writ large.


Exactly. WalMart didn't start out as a gigantic corporation. They got that way because people WANT to shop there.

----------


## Petar

//

----------


## fisharmor

> I go to the (locally owned) Asian Market for my groceries, the meat and produce are amazing and the prices are fantastic.


ASIAN MARKET FTW!!!

Also, it's really nice to be able to get a week's worth of apples AND a bottle of mirin or bonito flakes.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> I remember Sears and Wards catalogs . Nothing cooler than looking through a pre WW 1 Roebuck


My mom called it "Monkey Wards" back in those days. (I was quite young at that time) lol

----------


## farreri

$#@! Walmart.

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## Acala

> My mom called it "Monkey Wards" back in those days. (I was quite young at that time) lol


Where Granny Warrior shops.

----------


## specsaregood

//

----------


## Henry Rogue

If I have neg rep anyone on this thread or any other. let me know. Also can a Mod fix that. I have never purposely neg rep anyone. Sometimes the cursor on my laptop automatically clicks on things and somethings don't show up on my laptop till the next day. Very frustrating. Using old computer now with firefox.

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## chudrockz

> If I have neg rep anyone on this thread or any other. let me know. Also can a Mod fix that. I have never purposely neg rep anyone. Sometimes the cursor on my laptop automatically clicks on things and somethings don't show up on my laptop till the next day. Very frustrating. Using old computer now with firefox.


No worries, friend! In the meantime, look into a new computer. They're really a good deal at Wal Mart. We looked just the other day. 

(Honestly we need one, too.)

----------


## angelatc

> If we had a non-fiat monetary system i'm not sure any of these big firms would be nearly as big as they are.  And every strip mall in america wouldnt' be composed of the same dozen chains.


My small town paper just had a discussion about what they wanted to see in the empty Blockbuster space, and every single answer was a chain store.  And that's on a corner where there is a Target, WalMart and Meijer.  Not one person said they wanted anything locally owned.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> I suppose there's a chance a guy going by GunnyFreedom may never have seen this acronym....
> Winchester "White Box".  The all-white box with the red lettering.
> Generally the cheapest new cartridges available anywhere, and only at Wal-Mart.


Ah!  OK.  Yeah, the only cheap ammo I ever get is surplus M855 on the blue moon that actually surfaces anymore.  Rifle ammo I go for heavy grain weight match grade, for pistol ammo I go for heavy grain weight hydroshocks.  All of it kinda pricy.  For target practice I dig out the cheapest FMJ I can pry out of CheaperThanDirt and similar, So yeah I wouldn't really know what Winchester White Box is. Thanks for clueing me in though, I may have to try it.

----------


## angelatc

> My mom called it "Monkey Wards" back in those days. (I was quite young at that time) lol


LOL - that's what we always called it now that you mention it.  

In the early '90's I used to Christmas shop there because it was the only store that wasn't crowded.  Then it went away.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Winchester White Box , ( no racism intended  )





> It is the cheap stuff Glenn , but shoots well .


Yeah, when I pulled up an image of Winchester White Box I recognized it.  Just never called it that.  I don't generally buy it either, because if I buy in low quantities I'm buying serious rounds for home defense self defense very ling range rifle...if I'm buying target shooting rounds I'm buying lots of 1000 that are the cheapest thing I can find in the same (or close) grainweight I'll be shooting for my serious rounds.

Having pulled up an image of it, I recognize the box, just never heard it called that before.  

I have referred to it before as "That Winchester generic looking stuff" haha

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> No worries, friend! In the meantime, look into a new computer. They're really a good deal at Wal Mart. We looked just the other day. 
> 
> (Honestly we need one, too.)


Now I am certainly not one of these rabid Walmart haters, but I admit that I find the passionate fanboy attitude you have shown in this thread at least as disturbing as the kneejerk hatred shown by others.  WalMart is where it is in large part due to corporatism, which thing we free marketers are supposed to hate.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Um, our economic woes are a product of poor policy and mass expropriation, leaving less and less resources in the commercial enterprise, vice the political. It's not just Welfare which is contributing to our calamity. The reason why Wal-Mart is not completely innocent is because they abuse local-Government power in their favor to disadvantage competitors. Still though, without that I still think Wal-Mart would be a large firm, just not as large as it is now. It is hardly evil, but they aren't an angel either.


^^^Agree.

----------


## chudrockz

> Now I am certainly not one of these rabid Walmart haters, but I admit that I find the passionate fanboy attitude you have shown in this thread at least as disturbing as the kneejerk hatred shown by others.  WalMart is where it is in large part due to corporatism, which thing we free marketers are supposed to hate.


Don't get me wrong, Wal Mart should not be given ANY favors by government, just like no one should. Or be allowed to do things like eminent domain, which is thoroughly and completely evil.

But the fact is that people of limited means can afford to get things there which improve their lives. Prior to Wal Mart that was lacking.

Just as a for instance:  my local grocery store has boxes of hamburger helper (which I find tasty, sue me!) usually for about $2.59 a box. Wal Mart has them all day for $1 a box.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Don't get me wrong, Wal Mart should not be given ANY favors by government, just like no one should. Or be allowed to do things like eminent domain, which is thoroughly and completely evil.
> 
> But the fact is that people of limited means can afford to get things there which improve their lives. Prior to Wal Mart that was lacking.
> 
> Just as a for instance:  my local grocery store has boxes of hamburger helper (which I find tasty, sue me!) usually for about $2.59 a box. Wal Mart has them all day for $1 a box.


Don't you have any normal grocery stores around, like here in NC we have "FoodLion" whose prices are generally within 2% of WalMart, and they have been around at least 50 years.  I was always able to find low prices on stuff before WalMart came around, the primary difference was WalMart gathered them all together in one spot instead of 5.

----------


## oyarde

> Yeah, when I pulled up an image of Winchester White Box I recognized it.  Just never called it that.  I don't generally buy it either, because if I buy in low quantities I'm buying serious rounds for home defense self defense very ling range rifle...if I'm buying target shooting rounds I'm buying lots of 1000 that are the cheapest thing I can find in the same (or close) grainweight I'll be shooting for my serious rounds.
> 
> Having pulled up an image of it, I recognize the box, just never heard it called that before.  
> 
> I have referred to it before as "That Winchester generic looking stuff" haha


Its what us tight ass rednecks in my neck of the woods use out back on a day off , the good stuff is in case we are attacked  , hope not ...

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Don't you have any normal grocery stores around, like here in NC we have "FoodLion" whose prices are generally within 2% of WalMart, and they have been around at least 50 years.  I was always able to find low prices on stuff before WalMart came around, the primary difference was WalMart gathered them all together in one spot instead of 5.


And what I mean by that is comparing WalMart to a Lowes Foods or a Kroger while it makes for a stark contrast would be a bit disingenuous, when the chances are the 'ordinary' grocery store like a Food Lion or a BiLo or whatever in your region has pricing hovering right around the same as WalMart, and did so even before WalMart moved into the area.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Its what us tight ass rednecks in my neck of the woods use out back on a day off , the good stuff is in case we are attacked  , hope not ...


LOL if you saw where I live you would surely be including me in that group.  

I do the same, really, I just save up and buy the huge lots of 1000 rds for target loads so I save more and get to shoot more.  It's not WWB but hodgepodge from buy to buy, but it manages to put holes in paper at range, so I'm happy,

----------


## chudrockz

> And what I mean by that is comparing WalMart to a Lowes Foods or a Kroger while it makes for a stark contrast would be a bit disingenuous, when the chances are the 'ordinary' grocery store like a Food Lion or a BiLo or whatever in your region has pricing hovering right around the same as WalMart, and did so even before WalMart moved into the area.


Southern Minnesota might well be quite a bit different than North Carolina, I dunno. I have found, and we shop alot, that Wal Mart's prices are significantly cheaper than any other store, and FAR cheaper than any other non-chain type store. For instance, our grocery choices primarily are Wal Mart, Sam's Club, Cub Foods, and Hyvee. I go to all of them on a regular basis. On some things Sam's is cheapest by far (but not other things) while in almost all other cases Wal Mart is the cheapest. I will often check a few prices at Wal Mart (on things I buy, or just out of curiosity) then check the same items at Cub and Hyvee, and I'd say in my experience Wal Mart's prices are on average probably 25% lower than any other option.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Southern Minnesota might well be quite a bit different than North Carolina, I dunno. I have found, and we shop alot, that Wal Mart's prices are significantly cheaper than any other store, and FAR cheaper than any other non-chain type store. For instance, our grocery choices primarily are Wal Mart, Sam's Club, Cub Foods, and Hyvee. I go to all of them on a regular basis. On some things Sam's is cheapest by far (but not other things) while in almost all other cases Wal Mart is the cheapest. I will often check a few prices at Wal Mart (on things I buy, or just out of curiosity) then check the same items at Cub and Hyvee, and I'd say in my experience Wal Mart's prices are on average probably 25% lower than any other option.


Sams Club is WalMart without the ambiance and with a membership fee.  I actually mean that, same owners and everything.  

I go to the BJ's Warehouse or the CostCo if I want to buy something in sick bulk, I tend to prefer WalMart brand dairy because they have promised not to use rBGH, which their whispered unrecorded promise is all I really have to cling to, but it's better than nothing, and I do most of my grocery shopping at Food Lion (unless it's 3AM lol) because it's only a mile down the road and within a percent or 2 of Wal Mart pricing.

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## chudrockz

I knew that Sam's and Walmart were sort of sister companies, yeah.

However, my brother and his wife have three kids, and they literally go through like eight gallons of milk every week. They save their membership fee at Sam's Club like twenty times over every month just on milk alone.

----------


## angelatc

> Don't you have any normal grocery stores around, like here in NC we have "FoodLion" whose prices are generally within 2% of WalMart, and they have been around at least 50 years.  I was always able to find low prices on stuff before WalMart came around, the primary difference was WalMart gathered them all together in one spot instead of 5.


For a while WalMart was the lowest price in town.  These days I find that's no longer true.

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## Acala

> Don't you have any normal grocery stores around, like here in NC we have "FoodLion"


We have "FoodWombat"

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## tfurrh

> We have "FoodWombat"


Piggly Wiggly

----------


## MelissaCato

(I left my worm farm in the sun) sooo I went to walmart to get night crawler fishing worms - I looked at all their live bait and all of it was imported. That was it for me - I never went back. 

Like we don't have night crawlers in America. )

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## king_nothing_

It saddens me that people on this site, of all sites, would participate in the "Walmart is evil" bandwagon. Disappointing. It's on the level of condemning Rockefeller, Vanderbilt, James J. Hill and the like of being "sinister Robber Barons" because they were enormously successful, made everything they touched pretty much plummet in price, and unequivocally raised the standard of living of the entire country/world. Please explain to me why I should hate people who do such things.

But oh no, there are occasionally weird, grotesque people shopping there. That's obviously more important.

----------


## specsaregood

> Sams Club is WalMart without the ambiance and with a membership fee.


When they first came out they were called, "Walton's Wholesale Mart."

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> We have "FoodWombat"


If the cashier ladys have the accent too, then it's worth the extra cost.   I imagine though they'd have to import them though, AU being so far from Az and all that.  Alphabet notwithstanding.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Piggly Wiggly


LOL we have (had) those too, but I never really went there.  Couldn't get past the name.

----------


## tttppp

Wal Mart is one of the first companies I know of that mastered the art of destroying towns. They move in, offer rediculously low prices, and overstaff themselves, sucking up to customers. They then put all the competition out of business. Once they do that, they scrap their stores and turn them into crap because they can. Most businesses copy this business model. Their goal is to destroy all the local competition, then turn their stores into crap once the competition is gone. I've seen many companies in my area do this.

----------


## Ender

> It saddens me that people on this site, of all sites, would participate in the "Walmart is evil" bandwagon. Disappointing. It's on the level of condemning Rockefeller, Vanderbilt, James J. Hill and the like of being "sinister Robber Barons" because they were enormously successful, made everything they touched pretty much plummet in price, and unequivocally raised the standard of living of the entire country/world. Please explain to me why I should hate people who do such things.
> 
> But oh no, there are occasionally weird, grotesque people shopping there. That's obviously more important.


Agreed- there is nothing wrong with Walmart except the fact that it supplies products cheap and won't unionize. 

Oh horror!

Walmart is always getting a media beating because it will not unionize. Also the fact that Walmart hires many people that would be "unhireable" elsewhere and gives them a job as a "greeter" might explain why some are also receiving gov assistance. 

If you don't like Walmart, then shop elsewhere or open your own store, but to bash a business because it has actually done well and still has some affordable prices is lunacy.

----------


## chudrockz

> Wal Mart is one of the first companies I know of that mastered the art of destroying towns. They move in, offer rediculously low prices, and overstaff themselves, sucking up to customers. They then put all the competition out of business. Once they do that, they scrap their stores and turn them into crap because they can. Most businesses copy this business model. Their goal is to destroy all the local competition, then turn their stores into crap once the competition is gone. I've seen many companies in my area do this.


And no doubt once they "turn their stores into crap" and "destroy the town" (funny, our Wal mart isn't crap, and the town's doing just fine) there is no incentive for a challenger to emerge and relegate "crappy" Wal Mart to the wrecking ball.

----------


## Ender

> And no doubt once they "turn their stores into crap" and "destroy the town" (funny, our Wal mart isn't crap, and the town's doing just fine) there is no incentive for a challenger to emerge and relegate "crappy" Wal Mart to the wrecking ball.


Our town is very wealthy and the stores that give good service plus good prices do well- including Walmart. And there are 5 major grocery stores here in this little tourist town of 7000.

----------


## Henry Rogue

Economics In One Lesson, by Henry Hazlitt
http://www.fee.org/library/books/eco...esson/#0.1_L12
Well worth reading.

----------


## Weston White

If you shop at Walmart:

1.  You are not supporting your local community nearly as much as you could otherwise be, e.g., you might as well do your shopping from Amazon or whatever other Website.

2.  You are supporting slave-labor on an international level and of a grand scale; to which Walmart brings that very mentality in labor practices within its very own doors of all its thousands of stores.

3.  You should be very, very ashamed of yourself.

4.  You really should just take the time and make arrangements for you and your family to shop at other businesses in your area and visit Walmart as little as possible or otherwise never at all -there is a reason why their prices are so very cheap, and as they say you get what you pay for.

----------


## Ender

> If you shop at Walmart:
> 
> 1.  You are not supporting your local community nearly as much as you could otherwise be, e.g., you might as well do your shopping from Amazon or whatever other Website. *So?*
> 
> 2.  You are supporting slave-labor on an international level and of a grand scale; to which Walmart brings that very mentality in labor practices within its very own doors of all its thousands of stores. *Baloney- BTW, every big corp also has shops in China, including Apple, Target etc.* 
> 
> 3.  You should be very, very ashamed of yourself. *Not.*
> 
> 4.  You really should just take the time and make arrangements for you and your family to shop at other businesses in your area and visit Walmart as little as possible or otherwise never at all -there is a reason why their prices are so very cheap, and as they say you get what you pay for. *Go for it- I'll shop at Walmart when it suits me.*

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## heavenlyboy34

Shorter than Hazlitt, but to-the-point:
http://mises.org/daily/1151
The accusations against Wal-Mart are numerous, and they include: paying  overseas workers too little; not paying benefits to part-time workers;  refusing to sell items that don't fall within its criteria for being  "family-oriented"; not giving enough back to the community; and  discriminating against women.All the accusations leveled against Wal-Mart can be applied to just about any large corporation in America   , as frequently is the case. For example, Kathie Lee Gifford was  almost run out of the country for indirectly giving jobs to otherwise  unemployable, Third World  workers. 
 In addition, most retail and service sector employees still do not  get paid full job benefits, so what makes Wal-Mart so distinctive in  that case? What's more, Wal-Mart management has indeed made decisions to  refrain from selling certain items that did not live up to its moral  standards—including certain music CDs and a brand of barbecue sauce sold  by a man who promoted his Confederate heritage—but what's wrong with a  private company exercising its own moral discretion according to its  stated values? Accordingly, the marvelous ways of the free market allow  us to move on elsewhere for our purchases when we are dissatisfied with  what we perceive as corporate nonsense.
 Wal-Mart is an employer that pays relatively low wages compared to  most jobs or careers, and that engenders a sense of loathing from people  getting paid those wages. But Wal-Mart is not unlike any other retailer  in the respect that it, for the most part, provides jobs and not  careers. Other gigantic corporations such as General Electric or General  Motors, on the other hand, employ executives, college graduates, and  skilled laborers, so they avoid much of the wage-related scrutiny given  to retail employers. Add to that the labor union organizers' inability  to unionize Wal-Mart and you have the perfect recipe for resentment and  scorn.
 The overriding charges one comes across amid the many Wal-Mart rants  are "too large" and "too powerful." Thus it's just more anti-industry,  anti-free market claptrap. Along with that are the hoots and hollers  about this great chain "destroying small towns" by way of buying  property in rural areas and opening its doors to townsfolk so they have  access to convenient, one-stop shopping, an ample supply of products,  and unbeatable prices.
 However, there is one prevailing phenomenon that makes Wal-Mart a  unique target for contempt and that is its "bigness." Americans,  generally speaking, like to attack bigness. There are things associated  with bigness that Americans aren't keen on, like clout and domination.
 In fact, the favorite indictment of Wal-Mart is that they dominate  the market wherever they go and sell goods at prices that are too low  (gasp!). This in turn—say the naysayers—drives small, local competitors  out of business because they can't compete with Wal-Mart's pricing or  product selection.
 Suppose it's true that Wal-Mart went around opening giant stores in  small towns, pricing goods below their own cost long enough to drive  local stores out of business. Even if this were correct, Wal-Mart would  only be selling its own property. Suppose you want to sell a house you  inherited, and quickly. Should you not be allowed to set the price as  low as you want?  
 The theory goes that Wal-Mart could then set prices high, and make  monopoly profits. How plausible is this, really?  First, Wal-Mart  executives would have to be able to see the future—they'd have to know  about how long it would take to drive everyone out of business in  advance, and know whether they could afford to price goods below cost  for long enough to corner the market. Then, through trial and error,  they'd have to find the point at which they could set prices low enough  to keep customers from driving to another town, but high enough to  recoup the losses from the earlier below-cost pricing.
 It gets less plausible the more you think about it: The smaller the  town, the easier it would be to drive competitors out of business. Then  again, a town small enough for this would be small enough to have bitter  memories of the pricing strategy and small enough to boycott Wal-Mart  before the strategy succeeded. And a very small town would not support a  giant Wal-Mart anyway. The larger the town, the less feasible it would  be to drive others out of business in that town—Wal-Mart would have to  drive their prices far below those of large grocery and department  stores, which would be much more difficult.
 Further, where is there evidence of Wal-Mart ever driving up prices  after becoming established in a market?  Wal-Mart has indeed set prices  low enough to drive mom & pop stores out of business all over the  country and kept the prices that low forever. Yet a journalist for the _Cleveland Scene_ said  about Wal-Mart's pricing policy: "That's 100 million shoppers a week  lured by 'Always Low Prices.'" Lured—as if consumers really don't want  low prices; they are just tricked into thinking they do!
 In a free market, large suppliers of nearly everything will drive  most small suppliers out of business. The only people who can afford to  do business on a small scale are people at the top of their fields or in  a niche:  McDonald's has to keep prices low, and economies of scale do  this, while Brennan's restaurant in New Orleans can keep prices high.  People who produce house paint and wallpaper must compete on price with  other suppliers, while famous artists can keep their prices high.  General Motors must keep prices low, while Rolls-Royce doesn't have to.
 Nobody complains that there aren't family auto manufacturers, but the  powerful farmers' political lobby makes sure we pay inflated prices to  keep inefficient farmers in business. Of course, giant agribusinesses  don't complain that their weaker competition is kept in the market,  because the giant agribusinesses enjoy the inflated prices just as do  the family farmers, some of whom are paid to leave their fields fallow. 
 Nobody complains that there aren't family pharmaceutical  manufacturers, but people complain when Wal-Mart drives a corner drug  store out of business. Yet if the corner drug store owners had the same  political lobbying power farmers have, you can bet we'd be paying $20  for Q-tips.
 If the truth be told, Wal-Mart improves the lives of people in rural  areas because it gives them access to a lifestyle that they otherwise  would not have—a gigantic store showcasing the world's greatest choice  of products from groceries to music to automotive products. When it  comes to prices and service, try finding 70% off clearances at your  local mom-and-pop store or try going to that same store and returning  shoes you've worn for three months for a full-price refund with no  questions asked.
 On the whole, if one doesn't like Wal-Mart and finds it to be of  greater utility to support their local mom-and-pop stores for an  assortment of cultural and non-economic reasons, then they may do so. If  consumers wish to obstruct the development of a Wal-Mart store in their  small town, they have scores of non-bullying options to pick from in  order to try and persuade their fellow townsfolk that a new Wal-Mart is  not the best option. 
 Still, it is not always easy to convince folks to eschew  ultra-convenience for the sake of undefined, moral purposes. Consumers  most often shop with their wallet, not with political precepts. For that  reason, the anti-Wal-Mart crowd uses political coercion and an  assortment of anti-private property decrees—such as zoning  manipulation—in order to stave off the construction of a new Wal-Mart  store in their town.
 Hating Wal-Mart is the equivalent of hating Bill Gates. Sam Walton  had a grandiose vision for himself, and sought to realize that vision by  providing something people want—low prices. He has done every bit as  much for your lifestyle as Bill Gates. 
 Families who shop carefully at Wal-Mart can actually budget more for  investing, children's college funds, or entertainment. And unlike other  giant corporations, Wal-Mart stores around the country make an attempt  to provide a friendly atmosphere by spending money to hire greeters, who  are often people who would have difficulty finding any other job. This  is a friendly, partial solution to shoplifting problems; the solution  K-mart applied ("Hey, what's in that bag?") didn't work as well.
 It's interesting to observe that the consumers who denounce Wal-Mart  are often the same folks who take great joy in reaping the rewards of  corporate bigness, such as saving money with sales, clearances, and  coupons, being able to engage in comparative shopping, and taking  advantage of generous return policies. 
 When all's said and done, Wal-Mart employs lots of people; provides  heaps of things you need in one place at the lowest prices you'll find;  and gives millions to charities every year. Add up the charitable giving  of all the mom & pop stores in the country and it probably won't  equal that of one giant corporation.
 To be sure, if Americans didn't love Wal-Mart so much it wouldn't be  sitting at the top of the 2002 Fortune 500 with $219 billion in  revenues. And we do love Wal-Mart. We love it because it gives us  variety and abundance. We love it because it saves us time and  wrangling. And we love it because no matter where we are, it's always  there when we need it.

----------


## PierzStyx

> If you shop at Walmart:
> 
> 1.  You are not supporting your local community nearly as much as you could otherwise be, e.g., you might as well do your shopping from Amazon or whatever other Website. *SO? I'm a capitalist. If my local businesses either produces a superior product to justify increased price or become cheaper I'll shop there. Otherwise Wal-Mart wins. That is the free market baby.*
> 
> 2.  You are supporting slave-labor on an international level and of a grand scale; to which Walmart brings that very mentality in labor practices within its very own doors of all its thousands of stores. *I wasn't aware paying someone a mutually agreed wage was "slave labor". Also watch Penn and Teller's BS posted on the first page of thsi thread. It'll show how Wal-Mart produces more local jobs than local businesses did before Wal-Mart. That is an economic BOON for a locality.*
> 
> 3.  You should be very, very ashamed of yourself.*Nope. You shouldn't.*
> 
> 4.  You really should just take the time and make arrangements for you and your family to shop at other businesses in your area and visit Walmart as little as possible or otherwise never at all -there is a reason why their prices are so very cheap, and as they say you get what you pay for. *Yep. and I find it just as good for the most part as anything else. I don't get EVERYTHING at Wal-Mart. But what I do get, I am VERY pleased with. You can shop a syou please. But don't think you're somehow superior to others because of where you shop or what name you buy. You aren't.*


Useless emotionalism overall. and BTW I frakking LOVE Amazon. One of the last free markets in America. Where else can I get a NY Bestseller, highly acclaimed, award winning biography for 0.01? Nowhere.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Useless emotionalism overall. and BTW I frakking LOVE Amazon. One of the last free markets in America. Where else can I get a NY Bestseller, highly acclaimed, award winning biography for 0.01? Nowhere.


Amazon FTW!

----------


## AME3

It's called free market capitalism, before Walmart it was K-mart before that it was Sears Roebuck....
They employ more people at better wages than the mom and pops too
We have mom and pops all over the place around here too, and the smart ones are holding their own.
I agree with Gunny in regards to what I think he was referring to, that we are wasting our hard earned money on crap and overfilling our landfills with it...most of that's comin outa the Walmart...
Cheap throwaway bikes, toys etc. Lost our sense of value and conservation, we have.
So the prob isn't Walmart, it's us...




> So we have a company, Wal Mart, which has imo done more good for people in the manner of raising their standard of living and comfort, than any other entity EVER in the history of the planet, and supposed lovers of freedom want to light torches and grab pitchforks?
> 
> Color me ultra confused.

----------


## Henry Rogue

> If you shop at Walmart:
> 
> 1.  You are not supporting your local community nearly as much as you could otherwise be, e.g., you might as well do your shopping from Amazon or whatever other Website.
> 
> 2.  You are supporting slave-labor on an international level and of a grand scale; to which Walmart brings that very mentality in labor practices within its very own doors of all its thousands of stores.
> 
> 3.  You should be very, very ashamed of yourself.
> 
> 4.  You really should just take the time and make arrangements for you and your family to shop at other businesses in your area and visit Walmart as little as possible or otherwise never at all -there is a reason why their prices are so very cheap, and as they say you get what you pay for.


Punish Walmart? Punish Yourself the Consumer? But don't punish the instigator the government? The so called slave-labor is a job and apparently better than any alternative available. Punish him too? The accumulated savings from lower prices could be used to purchase other products or invested thereby making the world richer as a whole. Don't just look at what is seen, but also, what is not seen.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Wal Marx is an *atrocious* company, one that embodies all the very worst of the corporate/government/globalist complex that we are living under.

I do not shop there and encourage everybody that I can to not spend a dime there, either.

----------


## oyarde

> (I left my worm farm in the sun) sooo I went to walmart to get night crawler fishing worms - I looked at all their live bait and all of it was imported. That was it for me - I never went back. 
> 
> Like we don't have night crawlers in America. )


 I used to sell them as a youngster , had a bed sunk in the woods made of old coolers .I would take the hose hooked to the well and soak the front yard at dusk , come back after dark with a flashlight , clean up , dozens , I sold them for 15 cents a dozen ...

----------


## asurfaholic

> LOL we have (had) those too, but I never really went there.  Couldn't get past the name.


They carry your groceries to your car for you.

And its good for meat. Fresh meat, good prices in my experience between food lion, harris teeter, walmart, and giggly piggly wiggle.

----------


## Kluge

> Wal Marx is an *atrocious* company, one that embodies all the very worst of the corporate/government/globalist complex that we are living under.
> 
> I do not shop there and encourage everybody that I can to not spend a dime there, either.


Better or worse than Monsanto?

Just curious.

----------


## chudrockz

Okay, here's the deal. There are some damn freakin' poor people in this world. In my state. In my goddamned TOWN. Our neck of the woods has been suffering through a SEVERE heatwave for about the past week now.

What any of you hating so much on Walmart are saying, in effect, is this.

"Hey, you poor people! I know without Walmart, you'd not be able to afford that fan, or that window ac unit. Tough $#@!. If you buy that CHEAP CRAP at Walmart you are evil and a sinner, supporter of slave labor!"

It's ... classist, or something. Or just dumb.

I've said it before in this thread and I'll repeat:  Walmart is TERRIFIC, and does TONS of good for millions of people. Folks who used to have to eat ramen and rice can afford burgers sometimes. Some who used to have to endure the heat can afford a nice fan. Shame the hell on THEM, right?

It's impossible to do this


enough.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Better or worse than Monsanto?
> 
> Just curious.


Similar.

----------


## oyarde

> Okay, here's the deal. There are some damn freakin' poor people in this world. In my state. In my goddamned TOWN. Our neck of the woods has been suffering through a SEVERE heatwave for about the past week now.
> 
> What any of you hating so much on Walmart are saying, in effect, is this.
> 
> "Hey, you poor people! I know without Walmart, you'd not be able to afford that fan, or that window ac unit. Tough $#@!. If you buy that CHEAP CRAP at Walmart you are evil and a sinner, supporter of slave labor!"
> 
> It's ... classist, or something. Or just dumb.
> 
> I've said it before in this thread and I'll repeat:  Walmart is TERRIFIC, and does TONS of good for millions of people. Folks who used to have to eat ramen and rice can afford burgers sometimes. Some who used to have to endure the heat can afford a nice fan. Shame the hell on THEM, right?
> ...


 I think I picked up an AC window unit this  week for the Grand Son  cheaper @ Home Depot than Wal mart

----------


## AME3

If the company is successful or dosn't have a union controlling it then it's EVIL, right AF? See, how simple it is...

If it's 


> Similar.

----------


## Kluge

> Similar.


Cheap out! My personal research brings me to the conclusion that Monsanto is worse. We also have little choice but to use/consume Monsanto's products...we still have the option to not shop at Wal Mart.




> If the company is successful or dosn't have a union controlling it then it's EVIL, right AF? See, how simple it is...
> 
> If it's


Personally, I don't have an issue with WalMart's success, and I'm certainly not pro-union, but there are genuine issues with WalMart that should be addressed.

----------


## PierzStyx

> Wal Marx is an *atrocious* company, one that embodies all the very worst of the corporate/government/globalist complex that we are living under.
> 
> I do not shop there and encourage everybody that I can to not spend a dime there, either.


I understand why you say that. But I think you're looking at the symptom, not the problem. The problem isn't Wal-Mart's corporatism. That is a symptom. The problem is the corrupt government interventionism that causes/inspires these businesses to get involved in the first place. Solve that issue and the reasons you hate Wal-Mart will solve itself.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Still just a *symptom* of the core problem rather than the problem itself.
> 
> Congress is so beholden to corporatist special interests it's like they bend themselves over the desk and drop trau and scream "GIMME that biiiiiig money!" You think a giant like WalMart is going to turn and look the other way?
> 
> WalMart doesn't have to pressure government to do anything.  They probably have 400 Congress-critters lined up on their knees every day applying lip gloss.  Of course they are going to take advantage, the shareholders would fire the board for gross incompetence if they didn't.
> 
> WalMart is not the problem, it's just the symptom.  The problems run much deeper.


True, but why reward those companies doing the bribing?

----------


## PierzStyx

> True, but why reward those companies doing the bribing?


Why punish myself for something that is ultimately rooted in government and not the market?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I understand why you say that. But I think you're looking at the symptom, not the problem. The problem isn't Wal-Mart's corporatism. That is a symptom. The problem is the corrupt government interventionism that causes/inspires these businesses to get involved in the first place. Solve that issue and the reasons you hate Wal-Mart will solve itself.


You address the symptom by not doing business with them.

----------


## Henry Rogue

> corporate/government/globalist


Remove the middle, and the rest wither away. Remove Walmart and it is replaced with another just like it.




> I do not shop there and encourage everybody that I can to not spend a dime there, either.


Nothing wrong with protest, provided we all have the Freedom to choose where and what we purchase.

----------


## Weston White

No, see that is were this small group of apparent Walmart supporters (e.g., AME3, Ender, Henry Rogue, PierzStyx, et al) are very sadly mistaken.  Walmart is not representative of the free markets, not at all.  Walmart is however, representative of politic-cronyism.  Walmart lobbies local and state governments for eminent domain abuses, tax breaks, business buyouts, etc.  Walmart is the very problem that is systemic in corporate oligarchies.

Walmart has now set the standard for the last of the remaining national chains; hence, in order for them to compete with Walmart they are compelled to play its game otherwise they will surely fall behind and go under, moreover, they are all obligated to the whim of their shareholders, just as are Walmarts manufacturers and vendors.  Walmart is all about internationalism, there is nothing American about this conglomerate, nothing whatsoever.

Walmart is yet another all too worthless too big to fail, all they do is mistreat their employees, while entirely abusing the free market system (capitalism), in selling cheap, imported toxic junk to the masses of the many nations they have sacked.  And no Kmart did not infatuate the present moral abuses and dangers that Walmart rives.  Also, the arguments in support of slave-labor are entirely erroneous.

I will not ever again shop at Walmart (I have not since 2007), just like I will never-ever purchase any Apple products (or shop at Costco, Sams Club, etc.)  And yes, personally I will always feel great about that.

----------


## PierzStyx

> You address the symptom by not doing business with them.


But you don't. You remove Wal-Mart without removing the actual cause all you'll get is another "Wal-Mart" springing up to take its place. It'd be like taking Tylenol to cure your headache when you have a tumor. In a free market you'd be absolutely right, but that is not the case.

That said, I know you're working to solve the problem as well. So protest on.

----------


## AME3

Good points. I respect Walmart for selling ammo and weapons. Although I am not fond of their policies, like having to be escorted out the door by an associate when purchasing a firearm and having to pay for the ammo at the sports counter. Many moons ago, I stopped buisiness with Kmart because they stopped selling firearms or ammo.


> Remove the middle, and the rest wither away. Remove Walmart and it is replaced with another just like it.
> 
> 
> Nothing wrong with protest, provided we all have the Freedom to choose where and what we purchase.

----------


## Origanalist

> I will not ever again shop at Walmart (I have not since 2007), just like I will never-ever purchase any Apple products ........


So what brands would you encourage for computers etc.?

----------


## Weston White

> Okay, here's the deal. There are some damn freakin' poor people in this world. In my state. In my goddamned TOWN. Our neck of the woods has been suffering through a SEVERE heatwave for about the past week now.
> 
> What any of you hating so much on Walmart are saying, in effect, is this.
> 
> "Hey, you poor people! I know without Walmart, you'd not be able to afford that fan, or that window ac unit. Tough $#@!. If you buy that CHEAP CRAP at Walmart you are evil and a sinner, supporter of slave labor!"
> 
> It's ... classist, or something. Or just dumb.
> 
> I've said it before in this thread and I'll repeat:  Walmart is TERRIFIC, and does TONS of good for millions of people. Folks who used to have to eat ramen and rice can afford burgers sometimes. Some who used to have to endure the heat can afford a nice fan. Shame the hell on THEM, right?
> ...


If it wasnt for places like Walmart, inciting the shipment of the vast majority of American work overseas then your concerns (as you have raised them) would not even be an issue.

----------


## cindy25

> lol didnt expect to find WM hate here... goods are gonna be made in china no matter who buys them. If it was a mom and pop store the only difference is you would pay more for the same chinese stuff.  This article is so full of crap I just don't feel like going through it all with responses.
> 
> walmart is a benefit to the US economy. 
> 
> It is .gov policy that is the enemy.


its not the China factor; every business , large or small, sells products from China.  its that Wal-Mart is subsidized by the government in that their employees are so low paid they could not survive without government handouts (Food stamps, medicaid)

----------


## PierzStyx

> No, see that is were this small group of apparent Walmart supporters (e.g., AME3, Ender, Henry Rogue, PierzStyx, et al) are very sadly mistaken.  Walmart is not representative of the free markets, not at all.  Walmart is however, representative of politic-cronyism.  Walmart lobbies local and state governments for eminent domain abuses, tax breaks, business buyouts, etc.  Walmart is the very problem that is systemic in corporate oligarchies.
> 
> *Again all symptomatic problems, not the disease itself. That Wal-Mart takes advantage of this is not suprising. But the issue you have is government trying to regulate business, regulations Wal-Mart takes advantage of. But don't you see teh issue is then government and not Wal-Mart?*
> 
> Walmart has now set the standard for the last of the remaining national chains; hence, in order for them to compete with Walmart they are compelled to play its “game” otherwise they will surely fall behind and go under, moreover, they are all obligated to the whim of their shareholders, just as are Walmart’s manufacturers and vendors.  Walmart is all about internationalism, there is nothing American about this conglomerate, nothing whatsoever.
> 
> *I'm all for international markets. Unregulated international free markets would be the best thing that could happen for the world. Lets make every place Hong Kong! Wal-Mart's game is producing a cheaper product that also satisfies it's customers quality desires. If it does so by producing/buying from China, well to quote Dr. Paul, "That's great."*
> 
> Walmart is yet another all too worthless “too big to fail”, all they do is mistreat their employees, while entirely abusing the free market system (capitalism), in selling cheap, imported toxic junk to the masses of the many nations they have sacked.  And no Kmart did not infatuate the present moral abuses and dangers that Walmart rives.  Also, the arguments in support of slave-labor are entirely erroneous.
> ...


So trying to understand your idiocy, I take "slave labor" to mean sweatshops and low wages? Well my response is this,"Sweatshops are good for the poor in third world countries."

----------


## Weston White

> But you don't. You remove Wal-Mart without removing the actual cause all you'll get is another "Wal-Mart" springing up to take its place. It'd be like taking Tylenol to cure your headache when you have a tumor. In a free market you'd be absolutely right, but that is not the case.
> 
> That said, I know you're working to solve the problem as well. So protest on.


Then even still, you do not do business with whatever takes its place, until they start to catch on and realize that you cannot sell slavery in America, while lobbying the government for professional favoritism, period.  End of discussion.

----------


## PierzStyx

> its not the China factor; every business , large or small, sells products from China.  its that Wal-Mart is subsidized by the government in that their employees are so low paid they could not survive without government handouts (Food stamps, medicaid)


Sure they could. I know. My family did it. Again its government policies such as food stamps, mandatory wages, and dollar devaluation that causes the issue you're addressing. Without them the companies couldn't pay wages so low you can't live off of them because no one would work for them and their company would fail.

----------


## PierzStyx

> Then even still, you do not do business with whatever takes its place, until they start to catch on and realize that you cannot sell slavery in America, while lobbying the government for professional favoritism, period.  End of discussion.


You obviously do not understand that socialism is not based on your consent.


Also, you're looking at the problem wrong. Wal-Mart does not force teh government to obey it. It takes advantage of programs the government already runs. Get rid of the programs and you'll solve the issue of Wal-Mart's bad parts. Get rid of Wal-Mart and another will always take its place BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE CHEAP STUFF. You're whole thought process is a dead end. You are actually accomplishing nothing. But if it makes you feel better-carry on.

----------


## Weston White

> You obviously do not understand that socialism is not based on your consent.


1. Nor, is our United States of America socialist.  We are a commonwealth republic.
2.  PierzStyz, you are seriously conceited in both your support of Walmart and of slave-labor.

----------


## AME3

Wow, whatb a truly great great man you are! Not since 2007!


> No, see that is were this small group of apparent Walmart supporters (e.g., AME3, Ender, Henry Rogue, PierzStyx, et al) are very sadly mistaken.  Walmart is not representative of the free markets, not at all.  Walmart is however, representative of politic-cronyism.  Walmart lobbies local and state governments for eminent domain abuses, tax breaks, business buyouts, etc.  Walmart is the very problem that is systemic in corporate oligarchies.
> 
> Walmart has now set the standard for the last of the remaining national chains; hence, in order for them to compete with Walmart they are compelled to play its “game” otherwise they will surely fall behind and go under, moreover, they are all obligated to the whim of their shareholders, just as are Walmart’s manufacturers and vendors.  Walmart is all about internationalism, there is nothing American about this conglomerate, nothing whatsoever.
> 
> Walmart is yet another all too worthless “too big to fail”, all they do is mistreat their employees, while entirely abusing the free market system (capitalism), in selling cheap, imported toxic junk to the masses of the many nations they have sacked.  And no Kmart did not infatuate the present moral abuses and dangers that Walmart rives.  Also, the arguments in support of slave-labor are entirely erroneous.
> 
> I will not ever again shop at Walmart (I have not since 2007), just like I will never-ever purchase any Apple products (or shop at Costco, Sam’s Club, etc.)  And yes, personally I will always feel great about that.

----------


## Henry Rogue

> Walmart lobbies local and state governments for eminent domain abuses, tax breaks, business buyouts, etc.


I agree, and have stated so. A lot of companies lobby gov. and they have done so along time before Walmart.

----------


## misean

I'm kind of surprised that this is being debated. I think you would be hard pressed to find too many free market economists who are anti-Wal-Mart.  Wal-Mart and Apple for the matter (just saw some anti-Apple tripe) represent what is right and working with this country.

Here are the Mises Institute articles for Wal-Mart (all positive)
http://mises.org/daily/1151
http://mises.org/daily/2377
http://mises.org/daily/2219/
http://mises.org/daily/5405

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> its not the China factor; every business , large or small, sells products from China.  its that Wal-Mart is subsidized by the government in that their employees are so low paid they could not survive without government handouts (Food stamps, medicaid)


The two businesses I ran, one I was operations manager of a mid-level distributor of specialty hose and coupling parts, and the other a specialty candy manufacturer, neither sourced any components or parts of components from China.  The fluid and hydraulic parts distributor had some international sourcing, like India, but the one time we went to China (Taiwan, not my decision) out of desperation the hoses all had dry rot and the machining on the couplings was garbage so we never sold those parts, and we never went there again.  The candy company was 100% made in the USA.  So the blanket statement that "every business , large or small, sells products from China." is simply not true.

----------


## Henry Rogue

> I'm kind of surprised that this is being debated. I think you would be hard pressed to find too many free market economists who are anti-Wal-Mart.  Wal-Mart and Apple for the matter (just saw some anti-Apple tripe) represent what is right and working with this country.
> 
> Here are the Mises Institute articles for Wal-Mart (all positive)
> http://mises.org/daily/1151
> http://mises.org/daily/2377
> http://mises.org/daily/2219/
> http://mises.org/daily/5405


I got my first neg rep for stating what I've learned at Mises.org

----------


## misean

> Economics In One Lesson, by Henry Hazlitt
> http://www.fee.org/library/books/eco...esson/#0.1_L12
> Well worth reading.


Bump.

----------


## AME3

Some people have to whine, complain and critisize or they just aren't happy. Thanks for the truth misean, which should put this ridiculous matter to rest. But, I have a feeling it won't....


> I'm kind of surprised that this is being debated. I think you would be hard pressed to find too many free market economists who are anti-Wal-Mart.  Wal-Mart and Apple for the matter (just saw some anti-Apple tripe) represent what is right and working with this country.
> 
> Here are the Mises Institute articles for Wal-Mart (all positive)
> http://mises.org/daily/1151
> http://mises.org/daily/2377
> http://mises.org/daily/2219/
> http://mises.org/daily/5405

----------


## Weston White

> Wow, whatb a truly great great man you are! Not since 2007!



Yup, abso-fruit-ly!

----------


## Weston White

> I got my first neg rep for stating what I've learned at Mises.org


No, you are confusing the several core issues, while attempting to roll them up into a nicely presented Austrian economics package.  Largely, economic schools have to do with varying statistical or experimental models and not individual morality, ethics, and governmental intervention.

Furthermore, quoting from Wikipedia on the subject of Austrian economics: _The Austrian theory of capital and interest was created by Böhm-Bawerk.  He created the theory as a response to Marx's theories on capital.  Böhm-Bawerk's theory centered on the untenability of the labor theory of value in the light of the transformation problem. He also argued that capitalists do not exploit workers; they accommodate workers by providing them with income well in advance of the revenue from the output they helped to produce. _

----------


## PierzStyx

> 1. Nor, is our United States of America socialist.  We are a commonwealth republic.
> 2.  PierzStyz, you are seriously conceited in both your support of Walmart and of slave-labor.


1. We used to be a common wealth. But I don't know if you've noticed the rampant corporatism, the socialized healthcare, and the fact that the government now runs such business giants as GM and Chrysler directly. We're socialist in everything but name. The Republic has been on death watch for a while now. And the governmentb really just killed it. Welcome to the USSRA.

2. Again, slave labor? You seriously are that stupid aren't you?

----------


## Henry Rogue



----------


## AME3

If Weston keeps insisting on the USA being a common wealth republic then he is indeed "lost". Workin for the man is often coined slave labor so I say he deserves a pass there...



> 1. We used to be a common wealth. But I don't know if you've noticed the rampant corporatism, the socialized healthcare, and the fact that the government now runs such business giants as GM and Chrysler directly. We're socialist in everything but name. The Republic has been on death watch for a while now. And the governmentb really just killed it. Welcome to the USSRA.
> 
> 2. Again, slave labor? You seriously are that stupid aren't you?

----------


## Weston White

Negative, your arguments are steeped in complete fallacy.  Moreover, two wrongs do not make a right.

And when the people of first and second world nations take explicit advantage of the people of third and fourth world nations, they are not helping them in any decent meaning of the word; it is nothing else than the orchestrated extortion of such nation’s labor force and natural resources.  It is as a fact, industrialized slavery.

Pointedly, already your rebuttals have turned to insults; ergo, you have realized that you have entirley lost this debate.  You are just too much of a Walmart to admit defeat.

----------


## Henry Rogue

> No, you are confusing the several core issues, while attempting to roll them up into a nicely presented Austrian economics package.  Largely, economic schools have to do with varying statistical or experimental models and not individual morality, ethics, and governmental intervention.
> 
> Furthermore, quoting from Wikipedia on the subject of Austrian economics: “_The Austrian theory of capital and interest was created by Böhm-Bawerk.  He created the theory as a response to Marx's theories on capital.  Böhm-Bawerk's theory centered on the untenability of the labor theory of value in the light of the transformation problem. He also argued that capitalists do not exploit workers; they accommodate workers by providing them with income well in advance of the revenue from the output they helped to produce. …_”


Clearly from this post you don't know anything about Austrian Economics. Austrian Economics does not use statistical or experimental models. It uses Praxeology. The Austrian school began with Carl Menger his two disciples Fredrich von Wieser and Eugen von Bohm-Bawerk refined subjective theory in the areas of cost and capital and interest. Two important modern theorist are Ludwigg von Mises and Friedrich von Hayek. Mises gain fame in the 1920s with his challenge that socialism was totally impossible in a modern economy because of its lack of market prices. Both Mises and Hayek expanded the thought with there explanation of cyclical swings in business. Hayek focused on "knowledge in society" and the need for coordinated action. The Two students of Mises, Israel Kirzner and Murry Rothbard have made significant contributions to the understanding and elaboration of Austrian analysis.

----------


## Weston White

> Clearly from this post you don't know anything about Austrian Economics. Austrian Economics does not use statistical or experimental models. It uses Praxeology.


Clearly, you are lacking in your ability to read contextually.  The Austrian School advocates the model of _laissez-faire_, a highly honorable notion to which Walmart is thoroughly designed to quell.  Walmart is not at all about free-markets, it is all about complete domination of the markets on a geographical level (all the while being aided and abetted by career politicians).

----------


## Henry Rogue

I don't care if you buy at walmart or not. I don't care if walmart has success or fails. I do care if they gain an unfair advantage through government force. I don't want the government to bail them out, that means we are bailing them out. You see walmart as manipulating the government to create its monopoly. I see the government as manipulating everything and everyone in the economy, resulting in a monopoly. I asked you and others questions. I got no answers, all I got was a little red rectangle. Besides boycott, what is your solutions?

----------


## king_nothing_

> Clearly, you are lacking in your ability to read contextually.


No, he was precisely right. The first paragraph of your post which he quoted clearly demonstrates how little you know about Austrian economics. The second sentence, in particular:

_"Largely, economic schools have to do with varying statistical or experimental models and not individual morality, ethics, and governmental intervention."_

...could not possibly be more wrong in regards to the Austrian school. Everyone here who is adequately versed in the basic foundation of the Austrian school can see that you don't know what you're talking about. You may as well stop while you're...well, before you get further behind than you already are.

And for future reference, people who are actually versed in Austrian economics generally don't grab quotes from _the Wikipedia entry on Austrian economics_ when engaged in a discussion about it.

----------


## Weston White

As a few ideas:

1.  As a consumer, boycott them and inform others about the atrocities taking place, while encouraging them to also boycott, while providing reasonable alternatives.

2.  As a state resident encourage your local and state governments to cease their rapid favoritism and fawning towards such companies.

3.  As an American citizen call for Congress to draft new legislation that either heavily taxes such practices, or makes it outright illegal, or that requires such companies to treat their foreign employees as American citizens who are working abroad, e.g., imposing minimum wage and laboring standards upon them, etc., or that otherwise requires such companies to submit their payrolls to a third-party advocate’s office for foreign employees who then reviews their employees wages and expenses and informs a federal bureaucracy of any underpayments, who will then impose an additional penalty tax against the corporation and either turn that outstanding sum over the government of the respective employee's nation or direct-deliver the employees a check for the difference, depending on whatever treaties set in place, also charging the offending companies a separate percentage fine to cover all the additional expenses incurred.

4.  As an activist circulate flyers and the like, and protest out front of the business, write to local media, government, etc., along with other activists whenever able.  Also push for letter writing campaigns directly to the offices and officers of the business itself.

----------


## Weston White

> No, he was precisely right. The first paragraph of your post which he quoted clearly demonstrates how little you know about Austrian economics. The second sentence, in particular:
> 
> _"Largely, economic schools have to do with varying statistical or experimental models and not individual morality, ethics, and governmental intervention."_
> 
> ...could not possibly be more wrong in regards to the Austrian school. Everyone here who is adequately versed in the basic foundation of the Austrian school can see that you don't know what you're talking about. You may as well stop while you're...well, before you get further behind than you already are.
> 
> And for future reference, people who are actually versed in Austrian economics generally don't grab quotes from _the Wikipedia entry on Austrian economics_ when engaged in a discussion about it.


No, you are plainly wrong in each one of your falsehoods.  Again, you are taking what I wrote entirely out of context, even after I had corrected the above poster's incorrect insinuation.  This makes you doubly a fool.

Also, Wikipedia is a rather easy source to quickly quote or cite to for information, while also being mostly correct in the content of its articles.  And if the quotation, I referenced to is not in fact correct, thus far neither of you have bothered to explain how so.  While, the lot of you, rather seem to enjoy tossing insults about.


*  See you are taking my prior statement turning it into: “Largely, the Austrian School of economics has to do with varying statistical or experimental models and not individual morality, ethics, and governmental intervention.”

This is very, very wrong and misleading of you both.  While, yes the Austrian School uses models, just not conventional guided models that are based upon mathematics, statistical theories, or experimental concepts.  It is instead dependant largely upon human nature and interaction.

Which is neither here nor there.  As Walmart is wholly incompatible with Austrian logic.  My prior points are withstanding.

----------


## PierzStyx

> Negative, your arguments are steeped in complete fallacy.  Moreover, two wrongs do not make a right.
> 
> And when the people of first and second world nations take explicit advantage of the people of third and fourth world nations, they are not helping them in any decent meaning of the word; it is nothing else than the orchestrated extortion of such nations labor force and natural resources.  It is as a fact, industrialized slavery.
> 
> Pointedly, already your rebuttals have turned to insults; ergo, you have realized that you have entirley lost this debate.  You are just too much of a Walmart to admit defeat.


I've rebutted your every post. That stupidity is noted as stupidity doesn't change that.

Also it is not "taking advantage" of people in other places to pay them a lower wage. Wages are based on local market and local costs. If the local costs demands less to live on then the local market is not going to pay exorbitant wages. And neither should it as that creates inflation. In fact if you started paying some of these countries American wages it'd cause hyper-inflation as business raise costs drastically to meet the now larger amount of money the few have. This would not only cause ungodly inflation, but it would shut those who make less in local businesses out of competition, cause job loss, result in joblessness, and increase the amount of the absolute poor. In fact it can easily be argued that sweatshops are good for their local economies. Again I post:

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> It's called free market capitalism, before Walmart it was K-mart before that it was Sears Roebuck....
> They employ more people at better wages than the mom and pops too
> We have mom and pops all over the place around here too, and the smart ones are holding their own.
> I agree with Gunny in regards to what I think he was referring to, that we are wasting our hard earned money on crap and overfilling our landfills with it...most of that's comin outa the Walmart...
> Cheap throwaway bikes, toys etc. Lost our sense of value and conservation, we have.
> *So the prob isn't Walmart, it's us..*.


Exactly!  People like to distort things and say the politicians reflect "us", but in reality it's markets that reflect "us".  Markets are skewed as it is, but it's still more accurate to say the markets reflect what people really think than who's elected.

----------


## PierzStyx

> As a few ideas:
> 
> 1.  As a consumer, boycott them and inform others about the atrocities taking place, while encouraging them to also boycott, while providing reasonable alternatives.
> 
> 2.  As a state resident encourage your local and state governments to cease their rapid favoritism and fawning towards such companies.
> 
> 3.  As an American citizen call for Congress to draft new legislation that either heavily taxes such practices, or makes it outright illegal, or that requires such companies to treat their foreign employees as American citizens who are working abroad, e.g., imposing minimum wage and laboring standards upon them, etc., or that otherwise requires such companies to submit their payrolls to a third-party advocate’s office for foreign employees who then reviews their employees wages and expenses and informs a federal bureaucracy of any underpayments, who will then impose an additional penalty tax against the corporation and either turn that outstanding sum over the government of the respective employee's nation or direct-deliver the employees a check for the difference, depending on whatever treaties set in place, also charging the offending companies a separate percentage fine to cover all the additional expenses incurred.
> 
> 4.  As an activist circulate flyers and the like, and protest out front of the business, write to local media, government, etc., along with other activists whenever able.  Also push for letter writing campaigns directly to the offices and officers of the business itself.


So...you want to increase government regulation on the free market? Because that is all number three is talking about. 

And, i'm done talking with you. It is obvious you have no idea what you're talking about. You can't even argue your points, just mindlessly repeat them. You simply aren't wasting anymore of my life on.

----------


## Mani

I just want to point out things from the Asian side.

China is not the cheap labor place anymore.  That title is long gone.  They may still be a manufacturing powerhouse, but no way are they the cheapest producer anymore, not at all.  China is going through a lot of changes.

In fact, they are becoming a major consumer, and within a decade or so will be a bigger consumer then the USA, so maybe they will be agreeing with you all about buying too much junk and complaining about it.

The low cost labor camps are now in a couple other Asian countries and I have a friend who works for a LARGE brand name clothing company, who's in manufacturing and production and she is telling me it is SO HARD to work with some of these so called "sweat shops".  WHY?  *BECAUSE THEY ARE DOING SO MUCH BUSINESS they can pretty much tell tons of companies to $#@! off or do things THEIR way.* These so called poor sweat shops are cherry picking the best brands to deal with and if anyone gives them trouble there are a hundred more in line.

My friend has a tough time with these places, because she's at THEIR MERCY.  These so called poor sweat shops have so much business from so many of all your favorite brands in the USA malls and big box stores, that these "sweat shops" call the shots.  I hardly see this as 1st world consumption and 1st world companies taking advantage and exploiting 3rd world people.  

It's a global marketplace, every major brand or company is searching for the low cost producer and when those low cost manufacturing "sweat shops" are discovered, ALL the brands go running to them and those "sweat shops" are sitting pretty.

I can't speak for every brand or every industry.  I'm sure some people are definitely being exploited and some sweat shops are horrendous and I feel bad when that happens.   However, it's not so cut and dry.  There are plenty of low cost asian industrial factories (that are cheaper than China) that we blindly call "sweat Shops" but yet hold all the leverage.  I've heard about it where the US company will demand a certain amount of production and the factory just says *ahmmm NO, we're not going to do that, not happy?  Find someone else.*  And the US company just replies, "Pretty please?"

That doesn't sound like US companies exploiting anyone.

----------


## Weston White

> I've rebutted your every post. That stupidity is noted as stupidity doesn't change that.
> 
> Also it is not "taking advantage" of people in other places to pay them a lower wage. Wages are based on local market and local costs. If the local costs demands less to live on then the local market is not going to pay exorbitant wages. And neither should it as that creates inflation. In fact if you started paying some of these countries American wages it'd cause hyper-inflation as business raise costs drastically to meet the now larger amount of money the few have. This would not only cause ungodly inflation, but it would shut those who make less in local businesses out of competition, cause job loss, result in joblessness, and increase the amount of the absolute poor. In fact it can easily be argued that sweatshops are good for their local economies.


Wow, as they say, there is absolutely no sense in arguing with a "Forrest Gump".  And if logic happened to move backwards, it would run smack dab into you.

----------


## Weston White

> So...you want to increase government regulation on the free market? Because that is all number three is talking about. 
> 
> And, i'm done talking with you. It is obvious you have no idea what you're talking about. You can't even argue your points, just mindlessly repeat them. You simply aren't wasting anymore of my life on.


As to my few points, you keep ignoring them, while arguing that I am a know nothing imbecile.

I want businesses to be ethically responsible (regardless if local, national, or international), and if they cannot do that on their own then the federal government, whose task it is to do so, needs to step in and find that moral ground for them to follow.

And just what in the world do you think got us into this entire mess in the first place?  Could it have been things such as: CAFTA, MEFTA, NAFTA, TAFTA, WTO, UN, et al?  Are these not the very regulations to which you speak of being so against?

Do you furthermore deny that businesses such as Walmart have not worked to intentionally cheapen, erode, or otherwise destroy free markets?

----------


## Austrian Econ Disciple

> As to my few points, you keep ignoring them, while arguing that I am a know nothing imbecile.
> 
> I want businesses to be ethically responsible (regardless if local, national, or international), and f they cannot do that on their own then the federal government, whose task it is to do so, needs to step in and find that moral ground for them to follow.
> 
> And just what in the world do you think got us into this entire mess in the first place?  Could it have been things such as: *CAFTA, MEFTA, NAFTA, TAFTA, WTO, UN, et al*?
> 
> Do you furthermore deny that businesses such as Walmart have not worked to intentionally cheapen, erode, or otherwise destroy free markets?


While these are certainly not Free-Trade agreements, protectionists latch onto them as if they are, attacking straw man and then advocated absolutely devastating economic policy that reduce many many more to poverty and enrich the so-called people you're 'after'. In any event, the problem certainly is not these agreements as bad as they are (though they do contribute), the problem is a Federal Government that you would empower even more. You want to know why jobs are going overseas? It's because the policies of the Federal Government (that is, regulatory, monetary, tax, mandates, patriot act, etc. etc.) are cost-prohibited any business to hire an American worker, who are extremely expensive. If you want to subsidize the american worker just because you are xenophobic towards anyone not American, go ahead, but don't use the Government to force everyone else to do so just because it's a personal value of yours.

----------


## Weston White

> That doesn't sound like US companies exploiting anyone.


They are exploiting the foreign workforces, not the company itself, per se.  Do you really think the suicide-netting around the Apple iPod buildings is for upper management and their executives?  Not it is for their overworked, neglected, abused, and underpaid subordinates.

This problem is epidemic.  Do you think De Beers gives a care about the people or the resources it exploits out from South Africa, or for that matter Coca Cola its employees, etc?

----------


## Weston White

> While these are certainly not Free-Trade agreements, protectionists latch onto them as if they are, attacking straw man and then advocated absolutely devastating economic policy that reduce many many more to poverty and enrich the so-called people you're 'after'. In any event, the problem certainly is not these agreements as bad as they are (though they do contribute), the problem is a Federal Government that you would empower even more. You want to know why jobs are going overseas? It's because the policies of the Federal Government (that is, regulatory, monetary, tax, mandates, patriot act, etc. etc.) are cost-prohibited any business to hire an American worker, who are extremely expensive. If you want to subsidize the american worker just because you are xenophobic towards anyone not American, go ahead, but don't use the Government to force everyone else to do so just because it's a personal value of yours.


Excuse yourself.  Have you ever read America's founding principles?  Well, perhaps you should make the time.

And I don't even know where you are coming up with xenophobia from -you must of dug to China to reach for that one.

And yes those are FTA.

----------


## Austrian Econ Disciple

> Excuse yourself.  Have you ever read America's founding principles?  Well, perhaps you should make the time.
> 
> And I don't even know where you are coming up with xenophobia from -you must of dug to China to reach for that one.
> 
> And yes those are FTA.


The two groups of misinformed people I've learned are the most stubborn in their ignorance - the IP'ers and the Protectionists. Excuse me while I go watch the Universe from History Channel. Don't have the patience to waste my time in futile efforts.

----------


## WilliamShrugged

> As a few ideas:
> 
> 
> 3. * As an American citizen call for Congress to draft new legislation that either heavily taxes such practices, or makes it outright illegal, or that requires such companies to treat their foreign employees as American citizens who are working abroad, e.g., imposing minimum wage and laboring standards upon them, etc., or that otherwise requires such companies to submit their payrolls to a third-party advocates office for foreign employees who then reviews their employees wages and expenses and informs a federal bureaucracy of any underpayments, who will then impose an additional penalty tax against the corporation and either turn that outstanding sum over the government of the respective employee's nation or direct-deliver the employees a check for the difference, depending on whatever treaties set in place, also charging the offending companies a separate percentage fine to cover all the additional expenses incurred*.
> 
> 4.  As an activist circulate flyers and the like, and protest out front of the business, write to local media, *government*, etc., along with other activists whenever able.  Also push for letter writing campaigns directly to the offices and officers of the business itself.



Really???

----------


## Weston White

> The two groups of misinformed people I've learned are the most stubborn in their ignorance - the IP'ers and the Protectionists. Excuse me while I go watch the Universe from History Channel. Don't have the patience to waste my time in futile efforts.


Oh yes, the History Channel, now there is a very reliable source of information to be consuming.  Alright then, that would seem to be right up your alley, enjoy.

----------


## Weston White

> Really???


OK, now I see, the problem is not with corporations such much.  It is government exerted authority.  Admit it all of you are anarchists.

And yes, what better way to ensure that America's disappearing jobs and high quality products come back home and remain here to stay?


*  With all of that nonsense aside, I would surmise that predominately the problem is that there is no more pride or ethics remaining in corporations; effectively, all that remains is their bottom-line.  For example, the manly Hummer was recently to be sold to China (but the deal fell through and its product line was instead winded-down), keeping in mind that this is a vehicle that is supposed to be representative of the great achievements of our own U.S. Military technologies (Humvees), it was to be turned over to foreign control.  And now, those classy luxury vehicles know ad Cadillac are foreign made (further noting that Cadillac was the result of a separation involving Henry Ford), as was also to be the faith of Saab (though neither did that deal work out).

----------


## WilliamShrugged

> OK, now I see, the problem is not with corporations such much.  It is government exerted authority.  *Admit it all of you are anarchists.*


Yep...

----------


## Weston White

> Yep...


...And there is not any point in arguing with that at all, now is there (rhetorical).

----------


## chudrockz

> As to my few points, you keep ignoring them, while arguing that I am a know nothing imbecile.
> 
> I want businesses to be ethically responsible (regardless if local, national, or international), and if they cannot do that on their own then the federal government, whose task it is to do so, needs to step in and find that moral ground for them to follow.
> 
> And just what in the world do you think got us into this entire mess in the first place?  Could it have been things such as: CAFTA, MEFTA, NAFTA, TAFTA, WTO, UN, et al?  Are these not the very regulations to which you speak of being so against?
> 
> Do you furthermore deny that businesses such as Walmart have not worked to intentionally cheapen, erode, or otherwise destroy free markets?


You've been on this site for nearly five years now, and can still post something like that? Most people can be here five MINUTES and realize how silly that is.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> As to my few points, you keep ignoring them, while arguing that I am a know nothing imbecile.
> 
> I want businesses to be ethically responsible (regardless if local, national, or international), and if they cannot do that on their own then the federal government, whose task it is to do so, needs to step in and find that moral ground for them to follow.
> 
> And just what in the world do you think got us into this entire mess in the first place?  Could it have been things such as: CAFTA, MEFTA, NAFTA, TAFTA, WTO, UN, et al?  Are these not the very regulations to which you speak of being so against?


But, Weston,  it was the federal government who gave us all those managed-trade regulations.  Why would you trust them to regulate corporate morality?  That doesn't make sense to me.




> Do you furthermore deny that businesses such as Walmart have not worked to intentionally cheapen, erode, or otherwise destroy free markets?


Sure and I am no fan of WalMart and do not shop there.  But, the source of the problem is the government.  It is the government that encourages, through their legislation, the destruction of free market capitalism.

Note:  By the way, I am most certainly not an ancap.

----------


## tod evans

Repeat until it makes sense to you;

More government is never the answer.

More government is never the answer.

More government is never the answer.

etc.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> You obviously do not understand that socialism is not based on your consent.
> 
> 
> Also, you're looking at the problem wrong. Wal-Mart does not force teh government to obey it. It takes advantage of programs the government already runs. Get rid of the programs and you'll solve the issue of Wal-Mart's bad parts. Get rid of Wal-Mart and another will always take its place BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE CHEAP STUFF. You're whole thought process is a dead end. You are actually accomplishing nothing. But if it makes you feel better-carry on.


By that logic, we should all love Goldman Sachs, then, eh?  I mean, they're just taking "advantage of programs the government already runs".  I think the Federal Reserve fits in that category too, doesn't it?  They derive their powers from laws passed by the federal government.

----------


## KingNothing

> By that logic, we should all love Goldman Sachs, then, eh?  I mean, they're just taking "advantage of programs the government already runs".  I think the Federal Reserve fits in that category too, doesn't it?  They derive their powers from laws passed by the federal government.


Well, there might be some truth to that.  But it's also true that the Goldman Sachs has been engaging in regulatory capture and even then is operating in a gray area of legality.  Further, what they've been doing can in no way be described as "moral." 

Wal-Mart serves its customers well.  If it didn't, it wouldn't be in business.  Goldman Sachs uses shady techniques like HFT to steal money Office Space-style from traders.  The two are not the same.

----------


## KingNothing

> Note:  By the way, I am most certainly not an ancap.


You say that like it's a bad thing, and not the ultimate goal and destination of mankind.

----------


## torchbearer

people vote with their dollars, and they keep voting for walmart.
i don't go to walmart, but it has to do with how many people are there. i do most of my shopping at krogers.

----------


## misean

> W
> Sachs uses shady techniques like HFT to steal money Office Space-style from traders.  The two are not the same.


I'm not a fan of Goldman Sachs, but HFT isn't shady. stealing or even bad for that matter.

----------


## KingNothing

> I'm not a fan of Goldman Sachs, but HFT isn't shady. stealing or even bad for that matter.


Eh, I'll grant that it is not stealing.  But it is a completely non-value-adding process.

----------


## ShowMeLiberty

> Repeat until it makes sense to you;
> 
> More government is never the answer.
> 
> More government is never the answer.
> 
> More government is never the answer.
> 
> etc.


^This. +rep

----------


## Weston White

> But, Weston,  it was the federal government who gave us all those managed-trade regulations.  Why would you trust them to regulate corporate morality?  That doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> 
> Sure and I am no fan of WalMart and do not shop there.  But, the source of the problem is the government.  It is the government that encourages, through their legislation, the destruction of free market capitalism.
> 
> Note:  By the way, I am most certainly not an ancap.


That is because the vast majority of legislation having since been ratified was done so to favor one corporation over another or one industry over another, etc.  Our government has been hijacked by a highly selective oligarchy; our American politicians are predominately puppets serving private interests over that of the less worthy populace.  Slavery might have been abolished, but undoubtedly it has since been replaced with a new industrialized system of self-managing caste slavery; metaphorically, we are as chattel to the conglomerations, while our government functions as masters-in-command to the devoted protection of those very conglomerations.  Such are the true core of problems, not well intended governmental (constitutional) regulations.

It is Walmart that plays through the vocals of the government like a finely tuned violin.  The government is not otherwise beholden to the interests of corporations such as Walmart.  It is for the government to keep corporations in check, otherwise the result will ultimately be that we are governed under a greedily corporatocracy focused on procuring only monopolization through internationalism and the like -as such is now vastly the case.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> That is because the vast majority of legislation having since been ratified was done so to favor one corporation over another or one industry over another, etc.  Our government has been hijacked by a highly selective oligarchy; our American politicians are predominately puppets serving private interests over that of the less worthy populace.  Slavery might have been abolished, but undoubtedly it has since been replaced with a new industrialized system of self-managing caste slavery; metaphorically, we are as chattel to the conglomerations, while our government functions as masters-in-command to the devoted protection of those very conglomerations.  Such are the true core of problems, not well intended governmental _(constitutional) regulations_.
> 
> It is Walmart that plays through the vocals of the government like a finely tuned violin.  The government is not otherwise beholden to the interests of corporations such as Walmart.  It is for the government to keep corporations in check, otherwise the result will ultimately be that we are governed under a greedily corporatocracy focused on procuring only monopolization through internationalism and the like -as such is now vastly the case.


What in the world are "Constitutional Regulations?"

You do know that the word 'regulate' meant something quite different in 1787 than it does today, right?

----------


## misean

> Eh, I'll grant that it is not stealing.  But it is a completely non-value-adding process.



That's not even true. Mutual Funds that take longer term position (which is most and also what most people invest in) benefit. HFT have brought transaction costs and spreads down to nothing.

----------


## tod evans

This is a whole bunch of pretty words looking for government to fix itself........





> That is because the vast majority of legislation having since been ratified was done so to favor one corporation over another or one industry over another, etc.  Our government has been hijacked by a highly selective oligarchy; our American politicians are predominately puppets serving private interests over that of the less worthy populace.  Slavery might have been abolished, but undoubtedly it has since been replaced with a new industrialized system of self-managing caste slavery; metaphorically, we are as chattel to the conglomerations, while our government functions as masters-in-command to the devoted protection of those very conglomerations.  Such are the true core of problems, not well intended governmental (constitutional) regulations.
> 
> It is Walmart that plays through the vocals of the government like a finely tuned violin.  The government is not otherwise beholden to the interests of corporations such as Walmart.  It is for the government to keep corporations in check, otherwise the result will ultimately be that we are governed under a greedily corporatocracy focused on procuring only monopolization through internationalism and the like -as such is now vastly the case.

----------


## donnay

> Useless emotionalism overall. and BTW I frakking LOVE Amazon. One of the last free markets in America. Where else can I get a NY Bestseller, highly acclaimed, award winning biography for 0.01? Nowhere.


The problem is, we do not have a free market.  I wished people would understand that.  It is the illusion of a free market.  If we had a truly free market the people would be the regulators, not government!  We have crony capitalism.

----------


## Weston White

> Wal-Mart serves its customers well.  If it didn't, it wouldn't be in business.  Goldman Sachs uses shady techniques like HFT to steal money Office Space-style from traders.  The two are not the same.


Really why?  Their clients agreed to the arrangement/exchange didn't they?  I mean, according to you that is all that really matters, is that there is some sort of agreed upon arrangement or exchange, so what if one party was wholly taking advantage of another, right?  Such truly is a hypocritical take on morality.

And also that is false.  Such companies do only themselves and their shareholders, as you say "well", not so for their customers.  Levi, Nike, Apple, Cadillac, etc., are still selling their product lines for grossly overpriced amounts, retail prices do not go down even after they ship such jobs over seas; however, the products quality most certainly does.

And then there are companies such as Walmart that mostly sell cheap entirely useless products, which are manufactured largely with industrial waste and that break apart at the first sign of abuse or trouble.

Moreover, to what point is any of this if hardly anybody is working back home any longer that they cannot afford to purchase all of this worthless imported junk anyways.  It truly is self-defeating.

And Walmart only dominates so because it has been shoved down everybody's throat, just as have been GMO, vaccinations, government terrorist and war propaganda, etc.

----------


## Weston White

> What in the world are "Constitutional Regulations?"
> 
> You do know that the word 'regulate' meant something quite different in 1787 than it does today, right?


It means regulations (which are based upon corresponding statutes) that are within the granted breadth of our U.S. Constitution.  Regulate means to regulate, it has always held the same definition.

----------


## donnay

> It's called free market capitalism, before Walmart it was K-mart before that it was Sears Roebuck....
> They employ more people at better wages than the mom and pops too
> We have mom and pops all over the place around here too, and the smart ones are holding their own.
> I agree with Gunny in regards to what I think he was referring to, that we are wasting our hard earned money on crap and overfilling our landfills with it...most of that's comin outa the Walmart...
> Cheap throwaway bikes, toys etc. Lost our sense of value and conservation, we have.
> So the prob isn't Walmart, it's us...


Planned Obsolesce.  

Definition of 'Planned Obsolescence'
A manufacturing decision by a company to make consumer products in such a way that they become out-of-date or useless within a known time period. The main goal of this type of production is to ensure that consumers will have to buy the product multiple times, rather than only once. This naturally stimulates demand for an industry's products because consumers have to keep coming back again and again.

Products ranging from inexpensive light bulbs to high-priced goods such as cars and buildings are subject to planned obsolescence by manufacturers and producers.

Also known as "built-in obsolescence".

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/...#ixzz1zqfhGoEC

----------


## KingNothing

> The problem is, we do not have a free market.  I wished people would understand that.  It is the illusion of a free market.  If we had a truly free market the people would be the regulators, not government!  We have crony capitalism.


And, apparently, your solution to that is to further empower a captured government.  Gotcha.

----------


## KingNothing

> And then there are companies such as Walmart that mostly sell cheap entirely useless products, which are manufactured largely with industrial waste and that break apart at the first sign of abuse or trouble.


The tens of millions of people who buy products from Walmart probably disagree with your assessment.  They made a decision to buy cheaper goods rather than going without.  Who are you to criticize that line of thinking?




> Moreover, to what point is any of this if hardly anybody is working back home any longer that they cannot afford to purchase all of this worthless imported junk anyways.  It truly is self-defeating.


So you think we'd be better off without "imported junk" that companies like Walmart sell?  Really?




> And Walmart only dominates so because it has been shoved down everybody's throat, just as have been GMO, vaccinations, government terrorist and war propaganda, etc.


So you lump vaccinations in with war propaganda.  I can't believe I wasted time responding in line to you.

----------


## Weston White

> This is a whole bunch of pretty words looking for government to fix itself........


No, the people will just need to become aware and call upon the government to do so; they will need to become wise and take positions in public offices, for example.  Tyranny does not rout and censure its own despotism, it holds only the propensity to manifest and fester its own blights.

----------


## donnay

> Clearly, you are lacking in your ability to read contextually.  The Austrian School advocates the model of _laissez-faire_, a highly honorable notion to which Walmart is thoroughly designed to quell.  Walmart is not at all about free-markets, it is all about complete domination of the markets on a geographical level (all the while being aided and abetted by career politicians).


*
"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Weston White again"*

Thread winner!

It's one thing to think we are a free market, but it is another thing to think Wal-Marx is all about free market capitalism!  Hillary Clinton was on the board of directors for 6 freakin' years.  We all know she isn't for Free market capitalism!  Wal-Marx is part of a political agenda that so many people fail to see.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> It means regulations (which are based upon corresponding statutes) that are within the granted breadth of our U.S. Constitution.  _Regulate means to regulate, it has always held the same definition._


Is that just what you personally feel like?  Because it is the doctrine of original intent to use sources contemporary with your text to define words, and as it happens it is blatantly untrue.  In 1787, 'to regulate' meant 'to make regular,' and did not carry the connotation of 'restricted by law' that it does today.

At the turn of the 19th century, phrases were common such as "a well-regulated watch" that meant it kept time well because it was 'made regular,' or 'properly functioning.'  Up until about 1830-1840 the implication was that government would provide assistance to make something regular, such that the militia carried the same sort of canteens, same kind of powder etc.  It was not until the regulation of weights and measures shifted from 'putting everyone on the same sheet of music' into 'making rules for everyone to follow that the modern connotation of regulate began to arise.

Nevertheless, let's assume for the sake of argument that you are correct, and that 'to regulate' has always meant for some bureaucratic unelected agency to write rules with the force of law.

Show me in the US Constitution, sir, chapter and verse, where the federal government is granted the authority for some bureaucratic unelected agency to write rules with the force of law.

I'll be waiting for your response.

----------


## Weston White

> And, apparently, your solution to that is to further empower a captured government.  Gotcha.


As opposed to what, either (1) going along with it or (2) completely abolishing it into a state of anarchy?

----------


## tod evans

> No, the people will just need to become aware ; they will need to become wise and take positions in public offices,


This much I can accept. 




> No, the people will just need to become aware and call upon the government to do so; they will need to become wise and take positions in public offices, for example. Tyranny does not rout and censure its own despotism, it holds only the propensity to manifest and fester its own blights.


As written I read this as kissing the kings ring, "call upon the government" specifically.

----------


## donnay

> And, apparently, your solution to that is to further empower a captured government.  Gotcha.


What?  You make absolutely no sense.  Our government has been hijacked--it does not include us, as it was set up.  We need to take it back!!

----------


## Weston White

> The tens of millions of people who buy products from Walmart probably disagree with your assessment.  They made a decision to buy cheaper goods rather than going without.  Who are you to criticize that line of thinking?
> 
> 
> 
> So you think we'd be better off without "imported junk" that companies like Walmart sell?  Really?
> 
> 
> 
> So you lump vaccinations in with war propaganda.  I can't believe I wasted time responding in line to you.


Don’t flatter yourself too much.  Most all of those people either have no other real option (e.g., they have been financially castrated) or they are still totally and completely asleep and fail to grasp even a notion of the “bigger picture”.

It is not that they are making a conscientious or informed decision; it is that they have no other real option available to them or their family.  The very same could be argued against those that vaccinate their children, if families knew the risks involved or the truth about the chemicals and process involved in making these concoctions they would be doing this to their children?  Moreover, do you think the average vagrant wants to eat others leftovers or to sleep on the sidewalk?

Yes, I do, products should be well made, of proper quality, sturdy, and should not contain toxic chemicals that are harmful to the user over time, such as lead paint for example.  And perhaps most importantly the employees involved should be reasonably compensated for their efforts in manufacturing and delivering the products and the costs for purchase should as well be of a reasonable price at retail.

And yes, those are clean easy examples that are relatable to the subject-matter (in more ways than one).

----------


## Weston White

> This much I can accept. 
> 
> 
> 
> As written I read this as kissing the kings ring, "call upon the government" specifically.


lol, OK, perhaps it sounds that way, a bit.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

From Samuel Johnson's 1755 Dictionary of the English Language,

Note that in all the senses but one, that being definition #2 of "to Regulate" we are talking about processes that make things regular rather than edicts, and even #2 of "to Regulate" does not imply dictatorial force but constant attention and guidance towards an ultimate goal:






> _To Regulate
> _
> 1. To adjust by rule or method - "Nature, in the production of things, always designs them to partake of certain, _regulated_, established essences, which are to be the models of all things to be produced; this, in a crude sense, would need some better explanation.
> 
> 2. To direct - _Regulate_ the patient in his manner of living. "Even goddesses are women; and no wife has power to _regulate_ her husband's life."
> 
> _Regulation
> _
> 1. The act of Regulating - "Being but stupid matter, they cannot continue any regular and constant motion, without the guidance and _regulation_ of some intelligent being."
> ...


In every sense, in the 18th century, "to regulate" meant to make regular via guidance or assistance.  There was never any connotation of rule-making especially via some bureaucratic agency until something like 1835.

----------


## chudrockz

"It is not that they are making a conscientious or informed decision; it is that they have no other real option available to them or their family. The very same could be argued against those that vaccinate their children, if families knew the risks involved or the truth about the chemicals and process involved in making these concoctions they would be doing this to their children? Moreover, do you think the average vagrant wants to eat others leftovers or to sleep on the sidewalk?"

And there, friends and neighbors, is the anti-Walmart view in a nutshell!

Yes, my wife and I are clueless, socially-irresponsible DOLTS because we shop at Walmart. We either have no other option, or we don't know any better! Granted we're both full-time employed productive college graduates with above average IQs. Never mind that we're very aware that we could just as easily shop at Kohls, Target, Home Depot, Aldis, Cub Foods, Menards, etc.

We just like to give a great big middle finger to the universe and all its socially enlightened types! Yeah, that's it!

Either that or we want to save money.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

And I am still waiting for someone to show me in the US Constitution, chapter and verse, where the federal government is granted the authority for some bureaucratic unelected agency to write rules with the force of law.

----------


## donnay

> "It is not that they are making a conscientious or informed decision; it is that they have no other real option available to them or their family. The very same could be argued against those that vaccinate their children, if families knew the risks involved or the truth about the chemicals and process involved in making these concoctions they would be doing this to their children? Moreover, do you think the average vagrant wants to eat others leftovers or to sleep on the sidewalk?"
> 
> And there, friends and neighbors, is the anti-Walmart view in a nutshell!
> 
> Yes, my wife and I are clueless, socially-irresponsible DOLTS because we shop at Walmart. We either have no other option, or we don't know any better! Granted we're both full-time employed productive college graduates with above average IQs. Never mind that we're very aware that we could just as easily shop at Kohls, Target, Home Depot, Aldis, Cub Foods, Menards, etc.
> 
> We just like to give a great big middle finger to the universe and all its socially enlightened types! Yeah, that's it!
> 
> *Either that or we want to save money.*



Save money for what---your future?  You will have no future when TPTB blow out our economy.  The agenda is to take this country to third world status.  If you were really a free thinker, you would see the overall picture not the one in front of you.  

A government that works in concert with the corporates is not looking out for your best interest, I can assure you.

----------


## tod evans

Using pictures to show different meanings of "Regulator";

Then;



Now;




More government isn't the answer.

----------


## Weston White

> Nevertheless, let's assume for the sake of argument that you are correct, and that 'to regulate' has always meant for some bureaucratic unelected agency to write rules with the force of law.
> 
> Show me in the US Constitution, sir, chapter and verse, where the federal government is granted the authority for some bureaucratic unelected agency to write rules with the force of law.
> 
> I'll be waiting for your response.


Well lets presume that you are correct on this, to what logic would those enumerations even have been included, because it would have been very silly from them to have done, no?

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> We’ll let’s presume that you are correct on this, to what logic would those enumerations even have been included, because it would have been very silly from them to have done, no?


Um.  The Constitution only grants those powers enumerated to the federal government.  That's the whole point of Article 6 and the 9th and 10th Amendments, to clarify that any power not enumerated did not belong to the federal government.  Enumerating them would not have been 'silly,' lol, if that was a power the framers intended the federal government to have, they would have had to enumerate that power.

Instead, Congress is granted the power to enact laws subsequent to the Constitution.  Laws, from an elected Congress, not regulations from nameless faceless unelected bureaucrats.  The Federal Register is unconstitutional.

----------


## Weston White

> Planned Obsolesce.
> ...
> Also known as "built-in obsolescence".


As an example to this and from my own experience of recent.  I have a Lincoln LS and the electric window motors all use a plastic container clip that mounts around the cable spool and the entire piece is a single unit (meaning it all has to be replaced).  Now I rarely use my windows, even still I have already had to replace two of these complete motor units at $550 each.  Surely Ford Lincoln Mercury is well aware that rubber and plastics breaks down, becoming rigid within 7-12 years and more-so when exposed to the elements.  Clearly this was done intentionally, as there is no reason to use plastic on such a component that is frequently under strain and open to UV radiation, heat, and cold.

And just as a comparison, the electronic windows on my old 1988 GMC 1500 4X4 consisted of heavy duty metal components had never given me any issues whatsoever.

And also there is the aspect of how they configure newer cars nowadays, it is very hard to work on them yourself, and they have really limited you in what you can actually do to them, e.g., you need special fittings to exchange the coolant, the sparkplugs are very hard to gain access to inside of sealed compartments, to change out damaged hoses you have to pull out the radiator, etc.

----------


## Weston White

> "It is not that they are making a conscientious or informed decision; it is that they have no other real option available to them or their family. The very same could be argued against those that vaccinate their children, if families knew the risks involved or the truth about the chemicals and process involved in making these concoctions they would be doing this to their children? Moreover, do you think the average vagrant wants to eat others leftovers or to sleep on the sidewalk?"
> 
> And there, friends and neighbors, is the anti-Walmart view in a nutshell!
> 
> Yes, my wife and I are clueless, socially-irresponsible DOLTS because we shop at Walmart. We either have no other option, or we don't know any better! Granted we're both full-time employed productive college graduates with above average IQs. Never mind that we're very aware that we could just as easily shop at Kohls, Target, Home Depot, Aldis, Cub Foods, Menards, etc.
> 
> We just like to give a great big middle finger to the universe and all its socially enlightened types! Yeah, that's it!
> 
> Either that or we want to save money.


Oh, I am sorry I had already covered those willfully amoral and/or otherwise blatantly obtuse a few posts back.  But if you and your family do in fact have other more ethically prudent options, then you should really take those options to heart and exercise them.

----------


## chudrockz

Sigh.

As I ALREADY STATED, Walmart is clearly our best option most of the time. As it is for one hundred million people per week. Who the HELL are you to question that?

----------


## donnay

> Sigh.
> 
> As I ALREADY STATED, Walmart is clearly our best option most of the time. As it is for one hundred million people per week. Who the HELL are you to question that?


Because you and a hundred million people are paying for your own enslavement.  One trip at a time.  That's really the sad fact of the matter.  On top of that your are dragging people who do not want to be enslaved right with you.

----------


## Eagles' Wings

There is not a great solution here.  As was said earlier, we each have to make careful choices about where we spend our money.  Sometimes the choice is less than optimal and we support that which we deplore. 

We save for many months, tucking away dollars and cents, to buy local, organic from farmer markets and special occasion gifts from a fair trade shop.  Then, we buy some things from Amazon.  There is not a pure, 100% American made car so we are eeking out more miles from our oldies. 

We do the best we can!  I do appreciate the passion here and lots of good info to learn from.

----------


## Weston White

> And I am still waiting for someone to show me in the US Constitution, chapter and verse, where the federal government is granted the authority for some bureaucratic unelected agency to write rules with the force of law.


Such is in the power of the Congress to provide the Executive, through its own internal delegation of authorities, with the power to set forth clearly understandable rule-making policies that follow Congress's intended application of respective public (statutory) law.  Statutes are generally broadly written, a statutes regulations are intended to provide practical readability and little more.  If a regulation is found to have exceeded its binding statute, from which it derived its rule-making powers, it is then unlawful and the statute is to be given appropriate consideration of the regulations; ergo, regulations are always subservient to their respective statutes.

----------


## chudrockz

Uh, no, that's not what I'm doing at all.

The FACT of the matter is that by shopping at Walmart last year, we saved roughly $4,000 over what we would have spent for the SAME products shopping elsewhere. I used that money to buy a used truck to replace my pos car I was driving. That makes me a slave? See, I think that makes me a smart consumer.

And this "I'm dragging everyone into enslavement with me" crap is the sort of lefty socialist rhetoric I'd expect to read on Obama forums. Ron Paul would be highly critical, methinks.

----------


## donnay

> There is not a great solution here.  As was said earlier, we each have to make careful choices about where we spend our money.  Sometimes the choice is less than optimal and we support that which we deplore. 
> 
> We save for many months, tucking away dollars and cents, to buy local, organic from farmer markets and special occasion gifts from a fair trade shop.  Then, we buy some things from Amazon.  *There is not a pure, 100% American made car so we are eeking out more miles from our oldies.* 
> 
> We do the best we can!  I do appreciate the passion here and lots of good info to learn from.



Wait until the next government/state regulation is you cannot have a car older than 10 years on the road.  They will cite bogus (pseudo environmental science) as to why the old vehicles are causing green house gases or some sort of nonsense, to pass their regulations.  In some states this is already happening.  Why, because the older cars were made better and they know it!!


ETA:  Another thing is the newer cars will be tracked and traced and can be shut off by remote controlled devices.

----------


## Weston White

> 


You know for some strange reason I thought those were called "mall ninjas", sorry my bad.  





> More government isn't the answer.


However, in the grand spectrum of things that argument is but a red-herring.

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> When I was in high school I worked at a local Mom & Pop hardware store.  We had weirdos too.  I suspect that anybody who has ever worked retail knows that eccentricity isn't something that WalMart has cornered the market on.


Agree!  Our local thrift store has a couple of cross dressers that seem to be there whenever I go.  One of them lifted a blouse up and said, "This would look good on you."   I took a look and we spent some time talking.  Really cool person.

----------


## donnay

> Uh, no, that's not what I'm doing at all.
> 
> The FACT of the matter is that by shopping at Walmart last year, we saved roughly $4,000 over what we would have spent for the SAME products shopping elsewhere. I used that money to buy a used truck to replace my pos car I was driving. That makes me a slave? See, I think that makes me a smart consumer.


That truck will be obsolete in a few years.  You'll have to buy a new truck because government says you will have to comply.




> And this "I'm dragging everyone into enslavement with me" crap is the sort of lefty socialist rhetoric I'd expect to read on Obama forums. Ron Paul would be highly critical, methinks.



I am not a leftist, never was and never will be.  I am a freedom-loving patriot who loves my freedom to be able to step out of the box and see the bigger picture of what is REALLY going on in this country.  Twisting things to make excuses and suit your needs does not make them a fact, it just makes them more of the problem we are facing and the less choices we have.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> That is because the vast majority of legislation having since been ratified was done so to favor one corporation over another or one industry over another, etc.  Our government has been hijacked by a highly selective oligarchy; our American politicians are predominately puppets serving private interests over that of the less worthy populace.  Slavery might have been abolished, but undoubtedly it has since been replaced with a new industrialized system of self-managing caste slavery; metaphorically, we are as chattel to the conglomerations, while our government functions as masters-in-command to the devoted protection of those very conglomerations.  Such are the true core of problems, not well intended governmental (constitutional) regulations.
> 
> It is Walmart that plays through the vocals of the government like a finely tuned violin.  The government is not otherwise beholden to the interests of corporations such as Walmart.  It is for the government to keep corporations in check, otherwise the result will ultimately be that we are governed under a greedily corporatocracy focused on procuring only monopolization through internationalism and the like -as such is now vastly the case.


You cannot give the government that much power and just expect them to use it wisely.  If the government was brought back under the Constitution, they wouldn't have the authority to grant special favors to those who bought them off.  They would not have purview over such favors and would have none to give.  That is the only way to stop corporatism.  It is not by putting faith in man that he will behave differently than in his own self interest.  You must tie the sucker down and not give him that power at all.

----------


## Weston White

> Um.  The Constitution only grants those powers enumerated to the federal government.  That's the whole point of Article 6 and the 9th and 10th Amendments, to clarify that any power not enumerated did not belong to the federal government.  Enumerating them would not have been 'silly,' lol, if that was a power the framers intended the federal government to have, they would have had to enumerate that power.
> 
> Instead, Congress is granted the power to enact laws subsequent to the Constitution.  Laws, from an elected Congress, not regulations from nameless faceless unelected bureaucrats.  The Federal Register is unconstitutional.


Oh, I was referring to clauses mentioning "regulate" and "regulating".

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Uh, no, that's not what I'm doing at all.
> 
> The FACT of the matter is that by shopping at Walmart last year, we saved roughly $4,000 over what we would have spent for the SAME products shopping elsewhere. I used that money to buy a used truck to replace my pos car I was driving. That makes me a slave? See, I think that makes me a smart consumer.
> 
> And this "I'm dragging everyone into enslavement with me" crap is the sort of lefty socialist rhetoric I'd expect to read on Obama forums. Ron Paul would be highly critical, methinks.


Is it also possible that trading with a corporation who is receiving special favors from the government may also have unintended consequences?

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Sigh.
> 
> As I ALREADY STATED, Walmart is clearly our best option most of the time. As it is for one hundred million people per week. Who the HELL are you to question that?


Huh?  He is a forum member and his opinion is as important as everyone else's.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Such is in the power of the Congress to provide the Executive, through its own internal delegation of authorities, with the power to set forth clearly understandable rule-making policies that follow Congress's intended application of respective public (statutory) law.  Statutes are generally broadly written, a statutes regulations are intended to provide practical readability and little more.  If a regulation is found to have exceeded its binding statute, from which it derived its rule-making powers, it is then unlawful and the statute is to be given appropriate consideration of the regulations; ergo, regulations are always subservient to their respective statutes.


I have just re-read Article 1 of the US Constitution (powers of Congress) in it's entirety, and I do not find anything that resembles the above.  I do know, however, that nearly every regulation ever written goes beyond the clear writ of statute and establishes penalties for violations not of law but of regulation.  If what you said here were actually true, that no rule may exceed it's authorizing statute, there would be no regulatory violations, only violations of statute.  Instead, the vast overwhelming majority of infractions are violations of rules with no corresponding statutory violation, which logically demands that said rules have gone beyond the scope of the US Code that allegedly authorized them.

Nevertheless, there is no legitimate power of the federal government that is not enumerated in the Constitution, and all the powers of Congress are enumerated in Article 1, particularly Section 8.  Nowhere in the US Constitution does it give Congress the power to delegate rule-making to the executive branch, indeed it would seem that by retaining the exclusive monopoly on lawmaking to Congress, aka "the legislative branch" that the Constitution would explicitly forbid such delegation to the Executive as a violation of the checks and balances on the powers of the federal government.

Would it help you find this enumerated power if I pasted here the actual text from Article 1?




> *Article. I.**Section. 1.*
> All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.
> *Section. 2.*
> The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature.
> No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.
> Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New-York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.
> When vacancies happen in the Representation from any State, the Executive Authority thereof shall issue Writs of Election to fill such Vacancies.
> The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.
> *Section. 3.*
> ...

----------


## Dr.3D

> Um.  *The Constitution only grants those powers enumerated to the federal government.*  That's the whole point of Article 6 and the 9th and 10th Amendments, to clarify that any power not enumerated did not belong to the federal government.  Enumerating them would not have been 'silly,' lol, if that was a power the framers intended the federal government to have, they would have had to enumerate that power.
> 
> Instead, Congress is granted the power to enact laws subsequent to the Constitution.  Laws, from an elected Congress, not regulations from nameless faceless unelected bureaucrats.  The Federal Register is unconstitutional.


Well, according to the SCOTUS, the power to tax makes it possible for the government to do anything they want, as long as the penalty for noncompliance is called a tax.

----------


## Weston White

> You cannot give the government that much power and just expect them to use it wisely.  If the government was brought back under the Constitution, they wouldn't have the authority to grant special favors to those who bought them off.  They would not have purview over such favors and would have none to give.  That is the only way to stop corporatism.  It is not by putting faith in man that he will behave differently than in his own self interest.  You must tie the sucker down and not give him that power at all.


Exactly, the Executive has largely surpassed its authorized powers.  All the while our bicameral House remains mum and our Judicial works against "we the people".  It this not really what the Ron Paul Liberty Movement is all about, as to what is stoking our outrage and priming our enthusiasm?

----------


## Weston White

> Well, according the the SCOTUS, the power to tax makes it possible for the government to do anything they want, as long as the penalty for noncompliance is called a tax.


I lolol, yet sadly.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Oh, I was referring to clauses mentioning "regulate" and "regulating".


Article 1 Section 4 clearly distinguishes between "law" and "regulation" and maintains both as a power of the legislative branch.

Article 1 Section 8 only grants the power to regulate (as in "to make regular") trade, between nations and among the states and Indian Tribes; to regulate (regularize) the value of money weights and measures; and to regulate (regularize) the militia and the navy, and all such power is retained by Congress, not delegated to the Executive.

Article 1 Section 9 prohibits the special treatment through regulation of one state over another.

Article 3 Section 2 citing original and appellate jurisdiction of the Supreme Court again specifies that only Congress has the power of regulation, in that case pertaining to how appeals are transferred to the Supreme Court.

Article 4 Section 3 gives Congress the power to regulate the use of territory or property that belongs to the united States proper, it does not give Congress the power to delegate that authority to the Executive.

So again, when accounting for the fact that "to regulate" in the 18th century meant "to make regular through guidance and/or assistance" and that the US Constitution retained any and all such powers to the legislative branch as being wholly distinct from the concept of "law," 

Show me where in the Constitution the federal government is granted the power to establish a nameless faceless unelected bureaucracy to establish rules that companies and citizens in the United States must follow or face penalties?

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Well, according to the SCOTUS, the power to tax makes it possible for the government to do anything they want, as long as the penalty for noncompliance is called a tax.


LOL we as a nation haven't had anything remotely resembling Constitutional compliance for a looooong long time.

About the only positive I can take out of the recent SCOTUS ruling on the ACA, is that SCOTUS was never supposed to have judicial Constitutional oversight of Congress in the first place.  That was a power invented out of thin air in Marbury v Madison in 1803.  Instead, it was always supposed to be up to the STATES as counter-parties to the Constitution, to enforce original intent.

Something that we as a nation have completely forgotten.

----------


## chudrockz

> Huh?  He is a forum member and his opinion is as important as everyone else's.


Everyone's opinion is important, but when someone blantantly insinuates that I'm somehow doing something amoral/ immoral or socially irresponsible and ought to be ashamed of myself for shopping at Walmart, it pisses me off.

I shop at Walmart, proudly. I will continue to do so. And just to really make it stick in your craw, I bought a part for my truck on Amazon yesterday.

----------


## chudrockz

[QUOTE=donnay;4525877]That truck will be obsolete in a few years.  You'll have to buy a new truck because government says you will have to comply.




My truck is 17 years old as it is. With extremely low miles. I'll be driving it for the rest of my life, or whatever portion of it I choose to. Thanks.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Everyone's opinion is important, but when someone blantantly insinuates that I'm somehow doing something amoral/ immoral or socially irresponsible and ought to be ashamed of myself for shopping at Walmart, it pisses me off.
> 
> I shop at Walmart, proudly. I will continue to do so. And just to really make it stick in your craw, I bought a part for my truck on Amazon yesterday.


I don't know why you think that would bother me.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> You cannot give the government that much power and just expect them to use it wisely.  If the government was brought back under the Constitution, they wouldn't have the authority to grant special favors to those who bought them off.  They would not have purview over such favors and would have none to give.  That is the only way to stop corporatism.  It is not by putting faith in man that he will behave differently than in his own self interest.  You must tie the sucker down and not give him that power at all.


You must have misunderstood.  I agree with Gunny that you are asking for the government to do what they constitutionally have not been empowered to do.

Corporatism is caused by government being bought by some corporations to give them special favor.  If we reinstate the Constitution, the government will not have any special favors to give.

----------


## Weston White

> Everyone's opinion is important, but when someone blantantly insinuates that I'm somehow doing something amoral/ immoral or socially irresponsible and ought to be ashamed of myself for shopping at Walmart, it pisses me off.
> 
> I shop at Walmart, proudly. I will continue to do so. And just to really make it stick in your craw, I bought a part for my truck on Amazon yesterday.



Congratulations, you win the grand prize, a tee-shirt.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> You must have misunderstood.  I agree with Gunny that you are asking for the government to do what they constitutionally have not been empowered to do.
> 
> Corporatism is caused by government being bought by some corporations to give them special favor.  If we reinstate the Constitution, the government will not have any special favors to give.


Hear here, and that is the bottom line.  If the federal government were to remain within the boundaries of the Constitution, then it would not have the power to grant the favors requested by the special interests and the lobbyists in the first place.

Trying to end corporatism by regulating the lobbyists is futile, because the corporations own the regulators.  Plus you are only hacking at the branches rather than striking the root.

Force the federal government back into it's Constitutional box, and corporatism dies in the US, because from within it's Constitutional box, the US Government simply does not have the power to give the corporations (lobbyists, special interests) what they want.

Strike the root.  End corporatism (fascism).  End the tyranny of special interests (more often than not socialism). Restore the Constitutional order.  There is the panacea to fixing our broken government.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Wait until the next government/state regulation is you cannot have a car older than 10 years on the road.  They will cite bogus (pseudo environmental science) as to why the old vehicles are causing green house gases or some sort of nonsense, to pass their regulations.  In some states this is already happening.  Why, because the older cars were made better and they know it!!
> 
> 
> ETA:  Another thing is the newer cars will be tracked and traced and can be shut off by remote controlled devices.


*If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stomping on a human face -- forever. -George Orwell*

----------


## chudrockz

> Congratulations, you win the grand prize, a tee-shirt.


LOL

So now that I've admitted I'm a proud Walmart shopper, I'm a terrorist? I swear, you're no better than those oafs with MIAC and such that claim WE are that.

----------


## Dr.3D

> Hear here, and that is the bottom line.  If the federal government were to remain within the boundaries of the Constitution, then it would not have the power to grant the favors requested by the special interests and the lobbyists in the first place.
> 
> Trying to end corporatism by regulating the lobbyists is futile, because the corporations own the regulators.  Plus you are only hacking at the branches rather than striking the root.
> 
> Force the federal government back into it's Constitutional box, and corporatism dies in the US, because from within it's Constitutional box, the US Government simply does not have the power to give the corporations (lobbyists, special interests) what they want.
> 
> Strike the root.  End corporatism (fascism).  End the tyranny of special interests (more often than not socialism). Restore the Constitutional order.  There is the panacea to fixing our broken government.


So far, that seems an insurmountable task.   It seems like it will be next to impossible to force this gorilla back into it's box.

----------


## KingNothing

Wait a minute.  Donnay said "older cars were made better."

That is the most ridiculous thing I've read on this board in a while.

Yeah, these modern cars with their lifetime warranties, vastly improved fuel economy, safety-features and bells and whistles!  They just don't make them like they used to!


....and thank God for that.

Donnay's view of the world is so vastly out of step with reality that I question what universe he (she?) is living in.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> So far, that seems an insurmountable task.   It seems like it will be next to impossible to force this gorilla back into it's box.


Well, not until we get serious about the fact that the states are more important than the federal government we won't.  As long as we (Paulers) continue to think that the solution is in Washington DC, then the solution will continue to evade us.  The framers left it not to SCOTUS or anybody in fed.gov to enforce the Constitution, but to the STATES.  We have it within our power to resurrect the enforcement of the Constitution, but only if we focus where enforcement is actually to be found.

----------


## donnay

> That truck will be obsolete in a few years.  You'll have to buy a new truck because government says you will have to comply.







> My truck is 17 years old as it is. With extremely low miles. I'll be driving it for the rest of my life, or whatever portion of it I choose to. Thanks.



Here's a flashback and what is to be expected in the coming years across this country:

Maryland bill would restrict eligibility for historic vehicle registration
http://www.oldcarsweekly.com/news/ma...e-registration

Texas Government Will Pay You for Your 10-year or Older Vehicle
http://www.practicalenvironmentalist...er-vehicle.htm


Remember most of the people think driving is a privilege.  License and registration is required by the state.  If they say you cannot have an older vehicle you will comply.

----------


## chudrockz

[QUOTE=donnay;4525992]


> Here's a flashback and what is to be expected in the coming years across this country:
> 
> Maryland bill would restrict eligibility for historic vehicle registration
> http://www.oldcarsweekly.com/news/ma...e-registration
> 
> Texas Government Will Pay You for Your 10-year or Older Vehicle
> http://www.practicalenvironmentalist...er-vehicle.htm
> 
> 
> Remember most of the people think driving is a privilege.  License and registration is required by the state.  If they say you cannot have an older vehicle you will comply.


Mmm hmm. Well, wait and see, I guess. I fail to see what that has to do with Walmart. In any case, me and my 1995 GMC Sierra 2500 are doing just fine.

----------


## PierzStyx

> By that logic, we should all love Goldman Sachs, then, eh?  I mean, they're just taking "advantage of programs the government already runs".  I think the Federal Reserve fits in that category too, doesn't it?  They derive their powers from laws passed by the federal government.


I'm not saying there aren't issues that need to be solved.  But I'm not going to blame these businesses for taking advantage of these programs. After all business is all about making money. And these programs do help them keep their money. Its the same that I don't blame people who take welfare or SSI. I'm not going to cut them out of my life just because they take advantage of bad policies. The key for me is to go to the root of the matter and chop it away. And I trace the ultimate problem not to these businesses but to the government. You have to go there and solve it. When you do, all other problems with business will be taken care of automatically.

That said, I understand why you refuse to shop there. I'm just glad you're also attacking the ultimate issue too, government interventionism in the free market.

----------


## donnay

> Mmm hmm. Well, wait and see, I guess. I fail to see what that has to do with Walmart. In any case, me and my 1995 GMC Sierra 2500 are doing just fine.



It has nothing to do with Wal-Marx. I was merely making a point, with regards to Louise's post.  Of course expanding upon the bigger picture of government regulations!

----------


## Dr.3D

[QUOTE=chudrockz;4525994]


> Mmm hmm. Well, wait and see, I guess. I fail to see what that has to do with Walmart. In any case, me and my 1995 GMC Sierra 2500 are doing just fine.


Yeah, and my 1974 M151A2 is running just fine too.   I was lucky I could get it.   Turns out the fellow they were going to sell it to lived in a state that wouldn't register a vehicle that didn't have a computer in it.  They said something about in order to do emissions testing, they needed the computer.  In my state, the emissions testing wasn't required.   LOL

When something goes wrong, I can usually fix it with a regular screwdriver, a set of open end wrenches and a socket set.  Try that with the new stuff that requires a computer to diagnose the problem.

----------


## donnay

> Yeah, and my 1974 M151A2 is running just fine too.   I was lucky I could get it.   Turns out the fellow they were going to sell it to lived in a state that wouldn't register a vehicle that didn't have a computer in it.  They said something about in order to do emissions testing, they needed the computer.  In my state, the emissions testing wasn't required.   LOL
> 
> When something goes wrong, I can usually fix it with a regular screwdriver, a set of open end wrenches and a socket set.  Try that with the new stuff that requires a computer to diagnose the problem.



I wished Chudrockz knew how to quote better.  LOL!  Making it look like I am talking nonsense.  

I agree with Dr.3D.  Most people are not paying attention.

----------


## Mani

> They are exploiting the foreign workforces, not the company itself, per se.  Do you really think the suicide-netting around the Apple iPod buildings is for upper management and their executives?  Not it is for their overworked, neglected, abused, and underpaid subordinates.
> 
> This problem is epidemic.  Do you think De Beers gives a care about the people or the resources it exploits out from South Africa, or for that matter Coca Cola its employees, etc?


I can't speak for every company, but So many companies in china are suffering from massive labor shortages.   It's not so cut and dry. Things have changed here, If an employee feels he's being exploited he walks.  Ive been used just to helped a guy threaten his current employer and gave him whatever salary he could think of and had to negotiate his hours to his benefit and found out I was just a pawn in the end.  If you don't call a skilled and educated worker immediately upon getting his or her resume he's gone.  He will interview when he wants to, late at nite, or a Saturday, when it's his convenience.  Good luck with a headhunter they can't find anyone.  Even unskilled labor is not the easiest find anymore.

I'm tired of china being the evil empire, and the poor suffering tortured sweat shop employee.  It may be bad in places but it is not at all an accurate picture.  Capitalism is thriving, disposable income is increasing, employees have more money and choices and leverage then ever before, and no one sits around crying they live in an evil communist empire.  In fact going back to USA is torture, china airports have the easiest security ever, USA is when I feel I'm in some big brother $#@!ed up communist country. 

Sorry rant over....

I'm not complaining, but it is everywhere here, employees have leverage not just executives.   And it is going to get worse.   All these families of only 1 child finally going into a situation of disposable income, do you think they want their only child to be a factory worker?   That's not a problem now, but it will be for china.   Again, I'm not denying exploitation exists, but Chinese salaries have shot up quite a bit, there is a labor shortage, and employees do revolt against bad companies.




BTW if you do argue, you refuse to buy from china because you don't want inferior quality or fake/counterfeit stuff, well even the Chinese will agree with you on that one.  (although they are trying on the quality side). If you're an entrepreneur, be aware Chinese love buying imported stuff, if it's not made in china, they want it!!

----------


## Weston White

> LOL
> 
> So now that I've admitted I'm a proud Walmart shopper, I'm a terrorist? I swear, you're no better than those oafs with MIAC and such that claim WE are that.


An economical terrorist, sure.  A terrorist supporting domestic peonage, definitely.  Such a proud terrorist you'll make.  Smile, the Clinton's love people such as you, with them your type are in good company.

----------


## chudrockz

> An economical terrorist, sure.  A terrorist supporting domestic peonage, definitely.  Such a proud terrorist you'll make.  Smile, the Clinton's love people such as you, with them your type are in good company.


Alright, Mr. Wizard.

For the benefit of the unenlightened among us, why don't you pretty please make a list of all the companies that are evil and to be shunned, maybe the ones in a grey area, and the ones that are a-okay. Because my wife and I, along with the great unwashed masses, are far too ignorant to think such things through for ourselves.

----------


## Reason



----------


## chudrockz

> An economical terrorist, sure.  A terrorist supporting domestic peonage, definitely.  Such a proud terrorist you'll make.  Smile, the Clinton's love people such as you, with them your type are in good company.


Thread winner! 

I'm an economic terrorist because I shop where it makes the most sense for me to shop.

----------


## donnay

> Alright, Mr. Wizard.
> 
> For the benefit of the unenlightened among us, why don't you pretty please make a list of all the companies that are evil and to be shunned, maybe the ones in a grey area, and the ones that are a-okay. Because my wife and I, along with the great unwashed masses, are far too ignorant to think such things through for ourselves.


No one should have to spoon feed you, all you have to do is pay attention and stop defending Wal-Marx as nothing more than a free market capitalist--of which they are not.  

You should be angry that you are forced to shop there and have very little choice to shop anywhere else with you fiat currency.

----------


## Weston White

> Thread winner! 
> 
> I'm an economic terrorist because I shop where it makes the most sense for me to shop.


Yes, you are finally grasping that straw in your cup.  Now the only question is what to do with it?  Go ahead, make us all proud.

----------


## angelatc

> Yes, you are finally grasping that straw in your cup.  Now the only question is what to do with it?  Go ahead, make us all proud.


The underlying principles of a free market dictate that individuals will act in a manner where they benefit the most.

----------


## chudrockz

> No one should have to spoon feed you, all you have to do is pay attention and stop defending Wal-Marx as nothing more than a free market capitalist--of which they are not.  
> 
> You should be angry that you are forced to shop there and have very little choice to shop anywhere else with you fiat currency.


Round and round we go. Since you are unable to recall what's been said several times, I'll repeat:

I have TONS of options for shopping. I live in a medium-sized town with an incredible variety of stores. Walmart has the lowest prices on the stuff I want and need, all in one place, so it makes perfect sense for me to shop there rather than elsewhere. Why is this so confusing?

----------


## tfurrh

Surely we can all agree that there is that which is seen, and that which is unseen. Just because something is the cheapest, does not necessarily make it the best for you. Just because you paid less now, does not necessarily mean you've increased your savings in the long run. Just because more people are buying a product at one place than anywhere else, does not necessarily make it a free market success story.

Your Food: Pay Less Now, a Lot More Later




> Here are some amazing statistics. In 1949 we spent 22 percent of our income on food. In 2009 it was 10 percent. What’s different? Industrial prepackaged food.
> 
> Prepackaged meals are often over 1,000 calories with a low ratio of nutrients to calories. The result: only 4 percent of children were overweight in 1969; 19 percent were in 2009. In 1979, 28 percent of adults were overweight; in 2009 it was 64 percent.
> 
> In the U.S. we spend over 15 percent on health—the most of any country. Is there any correlation with the junk many people feed themselves? Watch the video and see what you can do about it.

----------


## chudrockz

> Yes, you are finally grasping that straw in your cup.  Now the only question is what to do with it?  Go ahead, make us all proud.


Okay, I was kidding. But I guess you were serious. I really AM a terrorist, because I shop at Walmart.

Now that's just insane.

----------


## angelatc

> Round and round we go. Since you are unable to recall what's been said several times, I'll repeat:
> 
> I have TONS of options for shopping. I live in a medium-sized town with an incredible variety of stores. Walmart has the lowest prices on the stuff I want and need, all in one place, so it makes perfect sense for me to shop there rather than elsewhere. Why is this so confusing?


Obviously you should be angry because you're being subjected to mind control that makes you drive past all those other places and into Walmart.

----------


## Weston White

> The underlying principles of a free market dictate that individuals will act in a manner where they benefit the most.


No, not really so much.  It would benefit must all of us to just pull the doors off the building with a chain connected to the towing hitch after closing, while wearing a mask and gloves and just quickly load up our vehicle whenever we need anything from whatever store, but that is not at all ethical.

----------


## angelatc

> Surely we can all agree that there is that which is seen, and that which is unseen. Just because something is the cheapest, does not make it the best for you.


I think I am perfectly capable of deciding what's best for me and my family.

----------


## angelatc

> No, not really so much.  It would benefit must all of us to just pull the doors off the building with a chain connected to the towing hitch after closing, while wearing a mask and gloves and just quickly load up our vehicle whenever we need anything from whatever store, but that is not at all ethical.


Ethics have nothing to do with it.  Private property rights, another free market foundation, mean that we can not do that.

----------


## donnay

> Round and round we go. Since you are unable to recall what's been said several times, I'll repeat:
> 
> I have TONS of options for shopping. I live in a medium-sized town with an incredible variety of stores. Walmart has the lowest prices on the stuff I want and need, all in one place, so it makes perfect sense for me to shop there rather than elsewhere. Why is this so confusing?


Oh I am not confused, I get what you said, loud and clear.  You got to do what is best for you and your family--even though it's a ploy to back you into a corner.

"A government big enough to give you everything you want,
is strong enough to take everything you have." - Thomas Jefferson
3rd President, Jan 20, 1777 to Jan 20, 1781

----------


## tfurrh

> I think I am perfectly capable of deciding what's best for me and my family.


I'm sure you are, and I never insinuated that you weren't....don't quite understand the hate.

----------


## angelatc

> Oh I am not confused, I get what you said, loud and clear.  You got to do what is best for you and your family--even though it's a ploy to back you into a corner.
> 
> "A government big enough to give you everything you want,
> is strong enough to take everything you have." - Thomas Jefferson
> 3rd President, Jan 20, 1777 to Jan 20, 1781


Since when does the government give us cheap prices?  Sheesh - don't tell the liberals that, or they'll start using Walmart as an example of we should let them run health care.

----------


## Weston White

> Ethics have nothing to do with it.  Private property rights, another free market foundation, mean that we can not do that.


But then for some reason that does not translate into moral concern over the well-being of the workers involved in the manufacturing, processing, and/or shipment of the those items that you are purchasing?

How does it serve your best interests to take advantage of others, what about their private property rights, do they not matter?  Do these rights only apply to those in first or second world status?

----------


## chudrockz

> Since when does the government give us cheap prices?  Sheesh - don't tell the liberals that, or they'll start using Walmart as an example of we should let them run health care.


Exactly. If we let the government run the computer industry the way it runs everything else, rather than be able to buy a $300 laptop at Walmart, laptops would not even exist yet and a crappy desktop from around 1998 would run $4000. Shame on Walmart, yet again!

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> But then for some reason that does not translate into moral concern over the well-being of the workers involved in the manufacturing, processing, and/or shipment of the those items that you are purchasing?
> 
> How does it serve your best interests to take advantage of others, what about their private property rights, do they not matter?  Do these rights only apply to those in first or second world status?


Do you eat Hershey's chocolate, M&M's or other Mars chocolate, or Nestle chocolate?

----------


## donnay

> Since when does the government give us cheap prices?  Sheesh - don't tell the liberals that, or they'll start using Walmart as an example of we should let them run health care.


Government cuts deals with these big corporates.  The liberals (LINO) are the very ones who have gotten in political positions that were either on board of directors, or CEO's of some of these major corporations.  Think Hillary.

----------


## angelatc

> But then for some reason that does not translate into moral concern over the well-being of the workers involved in the manufacturing, processing, and/or shipment of the those items that you are purchasing?
> 
> How does it serve your best interests to take advantage of others, what about their private property rights, do they not matter?  Do these rights only apply to those in first or second world status?


I believe that the workers are also fully capable of deciding what's best for themselves and their families.  There is a natural cycle to these things. It isn't rocket science.  Low wages = jobs.  Jobs = labor shortages.  Labor shortages = rising wages.  

I am not taking advantage of others by merely providing demand for their services.

----------


## Weston White

> Do you eat Hershey's chocolate, M&M's or other Mars chocolate, or Nestle chocolate?


Not since around 2007, since then I only shop at Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, and our local farmer's market.  And I really don't eat much candy anymore, so I am not certain on this, but I don't ever recall seeing crap like that there.  They mostly have high quality type cooking and baking chocolates (and sell a small selection of variety candies during Halloween).

----------


## angelatc

> Government cuts deals with these big corporates.  The liberals (LINO) are the very ones who have gotten in political positions that were either on board of directors, or CEO's of some of these major corporations.  Think Hillary.


Sure, but you're saying that government intervention has brought us low prices.  Low prices are a good thing for consumers.

----------


## angelatc

> Not since around 2007, since then I only shop at Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, and our local farmer's market.  And I really don't eat much candy anymore, so I am not certain on this, but I don't ever recall seeing crap like that there.  They mostly have high quality type cooking and baking chocolates (and sell a small selection of variety candies during Halloween).


My husband used to be an regional executive at Whole Foods, and even with the discount we couldn't afford to shop there.   Just sayin'.

----------


## tfurrh

> Low prices are a good thing for consumers.


Market prices are a good thing for consumers.

----------


## angelatc

> Market prices are a good thing for consumers.


No, that's not necessarily true.  Subsidies are good for consumers.  Not so much for taxpayers and competitors, but good for consumers.

The price of solar energy would be astronomical if it wasn't for the subsidies, yet the people who installed solar panels and now have lower electric bills are benefiting financially.  The suckers still paying taxes are the victims.

----------


## specsaregood

> My husband used to be an regional executive at Whole Foods, and even with the discount we couldn't afford to shop there.   Just sayin'.


If I was  rich man, I'd open a dollar general type store right next door to every whole foods and become even richer.

----------


## tfurrh

> No, that's not necessarily true.  Subsidies are good for consumers.  Not so much for taxpayers and competitors, but good for consumers.


And thats not necessarily true either. Which goes back to what I said about unintended consequences; that which is seen and that which is unseen. The consumer & the supplier are two sides of the same coin, and it seems that you're supposing they aren't. What's bad for one side is bad for the coin.

So maybe: Market prices are a good thing for consumers the market.

----------


## angelatc

> If I was  rich man, I'd open a dollar general type store right next door to every whole foods and become even richer.


You're absolutely right, but they tend to manipulate their markets by insisting that their landlords not allow competitors set up shop in the same strip.

Yeah, I could easily bore this thread to death by talking about the demographics of the average Whole Food shopper.  However, the overwhelming majority of them do NOT buy all their groceries there.   They go in and pick up perishables and a few personal favorite specialty items, then go to Walmart for the staples.

----------


## angelatc

> And thats not necessarily true either. Which goes back to what I said about unintended consequences; that which is seen and that which is unseen. The consumer & the supplier are two sides of the same coin, and it seems that you're supposing they aren't. What's bad for one side is bad for the coin.
> 
> So maybe: Market prices are a good thing for consumers the market.


We could agree, perhaps,  that market prices would be best for consumers.  I will go that far.

----------


## Weston White

> I believe that the workers are also fully capable of deciding what's best for themselves and their families.  There is a natural cycle to these things. It isn't rocket science.  Low wages = jobs.  Jobs = labor shortages.  Labor shortages = rising wages.  
> 
> I am not taking advantage of others by merely providing demand for their services.


Yea, but what if they aren't capable as you believe?  What if their options are severely limited or their fascist/communist nation-state prevent them from refusing to continue being a "valued" member of society?  And no these jobs are being shipped out from America (as well including other nations) to elsewhere thereby creating this demand to which you speak.  The "demand", as you allege, did not exist prior to that.  Meanwhile, cities all across America are collapsing left and right, more and more Americans are becoming subservient to their government for financial aid, the middle-class is waning.  The last remaining jobs are mostly part-time, mind-numbing retail, unskilled labor with zero benefits and little pay.

What if those workers are hoping and praying for people like to you take a stand for them and demand their better treatment for both themselves and their nation-state?  As an ethical consumer do you not hold an obligation towards the betterment of humanity, e.g., if you knowingly purchase stolen goods have you not involved yourself in the criminal's wrongful act?

The people of China, South Africa, etc. were there long before these corporations even existed, and they will just as likely be there after they have used them all up and leave.

----------


## 2young2vote

I can shop at walmart and buy my food, or i can shop at the local market and buy the same exact food for twice or three times the price.  I can shop at walmart to buy my junk, or I can buy the same exact junk at a local store for twice as much.  

The problem is most small business owners don't offer anything that walmart doesn't offer AND their prices are much higher.  I'm not even talking about products, i'm talking about quality of service, cleanliness, and how stocked they are with the items you want.  I could go to the local grocery store and pay higher prices for even lower quality service and the ability to walk down dirty and unstocked isles, or i could go to walmart which is almost always clean and stocked and pay lower prices.  

These small grocery store owners and the liberals who talk about them can either shut up and fail or start doing something for their business.

----------


## chudrockz

So, according to Weston, all that evil corporations do is "use up people and then leave."

And he's on the RON PAUL forums, why, exactly?

----------


## chudrockz

> I can shop at walmart and buy my food, or i can shop at the local market and buy the same exact food for twice or three times the price.  I can shop at walmart to buy my junk, or I can buy the same exact junk at a local store for twice as much.  
> 
> The problem is most small business owners don't offer anything that walmart doesn't offer AND their prices are much higher.  I'm not even talking about products, i'm talking about quality of service, cleanliness, and how stocked they are with the items you want.  I could go to the local grocery store and pay higher prices for even lower quality service and the ability to walk down dirty and unstocked isles, or i could go to walmart which is almost always clean and stocked and pay lower prices.  
> 
> These small grocery store owners and the liberals who talk about them can either shut up and fail or start doing something for their business.


See, now you are just one of the unenlightened twits who is silly thinking that it's better to spend less money on things. You silly goose!

----------


## Weston White

> So, according to Weston, all that evil corporations do is "use up people and then leave."
> 
> And he's on the RON PAUL forums, why, exactly?


Well, don't all of the court cases that have been brought against Walmart pretty much speak for themselves?  And if that is what they think of their own employees, I can only imagine how little they care about their vendor's employees.

----------


## PierzStyx

> But then for some reason that does not translate into moral concern over the well-being of the workers involved in the manufacturing, processing, and/or shipment of the those items that you are purchasing?
> 
> How does it serve your best interests to take advantage of others, what about their private property rights, do they not matter?  Do these rights only apply to those in first or second world status?


The most humane form of economic ethics is the absolute free market. It will maximize the amount of people working for the best pay matched to the lowest costs in their area. Every other form of market causes more unemployment, more poverty, more slavery. Getting the government involved in anyway causes more problems. It does not solve them.

----------


## Weston White

> The most humane form of economic ethics is the absolute free market. It will maximize the amount of people working for the best pay matched to the lowest costs in their area. Every other form of market causes more unemployment, more poverty, more slavery. Getting the government involved in anyway causes more problems. It does not solve them.


No, your speaking only in half-truths.

----------


## chudrockz

> Well, don't all of the court cases that have been brought against Walmart pretty much speak for themselves?  And if that is what they think of their own employees, I can only imagine how little they care about their vendor's employees.


Because I'm sure that all of the people who bring lawsuits against Walmart (or anywhere else for that matter), have a terrific case. Hell, I could go there right now, stub my toe in the parking lot, and probably win a one million dollar settlement. That just means we have too many bull$#@! lawyers doing, well, bull$#@!.

----------


## libertyjam

> Yea, but what if they aren't capable as you believe?  What if their options are severely limited or their fascist/communist nation-state prevent them from refusing to continue being a "valued" member of society?  And no these jobs are being shipped out from America (as well including other nations) to elsewhere thereby creating this demand to which you speak.  The "demand", as you allege, did not exist prior to that.  Meanwhile, cities all across America are collapsing left and right, more and more Americans are becoming subservient to their government for financial aid, the middle-class is waning.  The last remaining jobs are mostly part-time, mind-numbing retail, unskilled labor with zero benefits and little pay.
> 
> What if those workers are hoping and praying for people like to you take a stand for them and demand their better treatment for both themselves and their nation-state?  As an ethical consumer do you not hold an obligation towards the betterment of humanity, e.g., if you knowingly purchase stolen goods have you not involved yourself in the criminal's wrongful act?
> 
> The people of China, South Africa, etc. were there long before these corporations even existed, and they will just as likely be there after they have used them all up and leave.


http://slaveryfootprint.org
How many slaves work for you web app

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Wait a minute.  Donnay said "older cars were made better."
> 
> That is the most ridiculous thing I've read on this board in a while.
> 
> Yeah, these modern cars with their lifetime warranties, vastly improved fuel economy, safety-features and bells and whistles!  They just don't make them like they used to!
> 
> 
> ....and thank God for that.
> 
> Donnay's view of the world is so vastly out of step with reality that I question what universe he (she?) is living in.


LOL - Lucky we're a "friendly" crowd around here. Post that nonsense over at DailyKos, and they'd have a field day tearing you apart. 

You do realize the reason that car makers were forced to make all those advances was because of government regulations, don't you?

And the reason I can't buy a dirt simple, non computerized, small diesel pickup truck that could get better mileage than any hybrid out there, for 8000 bucks, is because of those same government regulations?

Or why you can't buy a Ford Focus diesel that gets 80 MPG in this country?

Or why a "tune up" costs $500 to $1000?

I've been fussing around under the hoods of cars for over thirty years now.

I can safely say, you will find very few, if any, 2012 model year cars in service thirty years from now.

Yes, they are built to tight specs now, but because of that, as wear and tear takes its toll, there is very little in the way of service that can done to keep most of them running much past 100,000 miles. Not to mention the computer and sensor parts that get harder and harder to find as time goes by. I've got an issue with a 1999 Mercury/Nissan right now, where I cannot find a replacement sensor, outside of grubbing around salvage yards. Nobody, not even Motorcraft, carries this sensor as an OEM item.

Funny you should mention cars though.

The two best selling and arguably highest quality cars in the country are the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.

Built in Ohio and Kentucky, respectively, by non union shops by making making decent middle class wages.

The best selling vehicle? The Ford F150 pickup.

Also made in various places around the US.

Why?

Import tariffs.

----------


## Origanalist

> LOL - Lucky we're a "friendly" crowd around here. Post that nonsense over at DailyKos, and they'd have field day tearing you apart. You do realize the reason that car makers were forced to make all those advances was because of government regulations, don't you?
> 
> And the reason I can't buy a dirt simple, non computerized, small diesel pickup truck that could get better mileage than any hybrid out there, for 8000 bucks, is because of government regulations?
> 
> Or why you can't buy a Ford Focus diesel that gets 80 MPG in this country?
> 
> I've been fussing around under the hoods of cars for over thirty years now.
> 
> I can safely say, you will find very few, if any, 2012 model year cars in service thirty years from now.
> ...


1984 dodge van-slant six
1981 dodge 4x short stepside-slant six

dependable and *very* user freindly.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> 1984 dodge van-slant six
> 1981 dodge 4x short stepside-slant six
> 
> dependable and *very* user freindly.


<<<Thumbs up>>>

New computer cars?

Throw it in the woods!

*‘Lil Stinker Won… But Government is Winning*

http://ericpetersautos.com/2012/06/2...nt-is-winning/

----------


## DerailingDaTrain

You know they have this exact same thread on an ultra-left forum I look at for laughs. Weird

----------


## chudrockz

What shocks me in general about this whole thread is that there can possibly be so many Walmart-hypercritical types on a forum dedicated to liberty like this one.

I would love to see some kind of poll on the subject, but I'm unsure how many options one would need to cover all the bases. For that matter I don't know how to "do" a poll....

----------


## chudrockz

> You know they have this exact same thread on an ultra-left forum I look at for laughs. Weird


It IS funny. My sister-in-law is "ultra left" and pro-Obama (and proudly so, on both counts) and she detests Walmart with a passion. Still shops there though!

----------


## Anti Federalist

> You know they have this exact same thread on an ultra-left forum I look at for laughs. Weird


We have plenty of "anti war" threads on this forum as well.

I'm sure, if they are not O-bomb-ya fanbois, that there are plenty of those as well.

Just because a line may cross or an interest may meet does not mean that is endorsement of somebody's philosophy _in toto_.

I'd reckon though that there are plenty of people that want Wal Marx "banned" somehow or another in those threads.

I'm not in favor of that at all.

I'm using my rights as a free man to bring attention to what I consider to be abominable business practices of Wal Marx and encourage others not to shop there.

Vain hope however, about as productive as trying to get people to reclaim and exercise their rights.

----------


## phill4paul

I do not shop at Wal-Mart. In comparisons I have found that their prices are not much lower than competition and in some cases are more expensive. Also, there is something about the stores that leave me with a splitting headache. Lighting perhaps? I dunno. I just don't like the store.

----------


## BamaAla

I $#@!ing love Wal-Mart! I drop my car off for a service, get my prescription filled, get a haircut, eat lunch, shop for my groceries, buy a kettlebell, get 3 DVDs for $5, get the newest iPhone, and pick up some local white trash beauties...all in the same great, amazing store. What's not to love?

----------


## PierzStyx

> 1984 dodge van-slant six
> 1981 dodge 4x short stepside-slant six
> 
> dependable and *very* user freindly.


I have a 92 Chevy Lumina that runs like a dream. Spacious, good reaction time, and decent gas mileage.

----------


## PierzStyx

> I do not shop at Wal-Mart. In comparisons I have found that their prices are not much lower than competition and in some cases are more expensive. Also, there is something about the stores that leave me with a splitting headache. Lighting perhaps? I dunno. I just don't like the store.


Could be the lighting. Industrial lighting can be harsh on some people.

----------


## PierzStyx

> No, your speaking only in half-truths.


History shows otherwise.

----------


## angelatc

> I'm using my rights as a free man to bring attention to what I consider to be abominable business practices of Wal Marx and encourage others not to shop there.
> 
> Vain hope however, about as productive as trying to get people to reclaim and exercise their rights.


I've told this story umpteen times before, but if you have a product that you want to sell, Walmart is the only retailer that will put it on their shelves without making you pay through the nose.

All the other chains demand slotting fees.  That is  - $10k per each item you put in each one of their stores.  Want to sell a cool fishing lure you invented in Target?  Multiply $10,000 by the number of Target, or Meijers, or Lowes, or Home Depot, Or Dicks Sporting Goods stores you want to sell it in, and there's your cost to enter their market.   And THATS if you are lucky enough to be able to score an appointment with their buyer.

Want to sell it at Walmart?  They charge you nothing.  They tell you how many they can sell, how much they're going to price it at, and how much they need to buy it at.  They know how to maximize their investment in your product, which is something a lot of small business owners don't want to hear. 

So you guys can crab about Walmart all you want, but all retailers play the same games,  They all barter for tax breaks, they all play their lowest level employees squat, and they aren't in it for any reason than to sell a lot of stuff to the most people possible.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> http://slaveryfootprint.org
> How many slaves work for you web app


WebApp is crap.  I drink coffee and eat chocolate, but I am very careful about sourcing my coffee and cocoa beans.  It doesn't account for anything like that at all.  It just assumes that if you drink x amount of coffee, you use y amount of slaves.  However all my coffee and chocolate is fair trade.  I have leather shoes but they are Doc Martins, my cotton is made in the USA, the list goes on.  If you are conscientious about product sourcing to avoid actual slavery, then this web app is extremely inaccurate because it fails to account for such.

----------


## angelatc

> I do not shop at Wal-Mart. In comparisons I have found that their prices are not much lower than competition and in some cases are more expensive. Also, there is something about the stores that leave me with a splitting headache. Lighting perhaps? I dunno. I just don't like the store.


I don't like them either, because they're too big.  But you're right about the prices.  10 years ago they were always the cheapest.  Now, they aren't.  They will, however, match prices, so if you're a flier shopper you can force them to meet the competition.

----------


## Origanalist

> I have a 92 Chevy Lumina that runs like a dream. Spacious, good reaction time, and decent gas mileage.


I have to have full sized vehicles for work. The van gets about 20-22, the truck about 18. They don't have a 'brain' to go out, and I can do most any maintenence myself. Including pulling and installing motors, trannies etc. Very simple to work on.

----------


## angelatc

> Yes, they are built to tight specs now, but because of that, as wear and tear takes its toll, there is very little in the way of service that can done to keep most of them running much past 100,000 miles.


I would question that.  When I was a kid, nobody drove a car, or would buy a car, past 100,000 miles.   These days it's pretty common to see cars with 200k, even 300k miles on them.   I can't find it now, but I just read an article about the average lifespan of vehicles, and they said that in the 1970's it 80k miles, in the 1980's got 120-130k miles, the '90's were up to 150k miles.  I am no mechanic, but that seemed to match my observations.

My cars seem to always lose their transmissions though, not their engines.  Which ticks me off, because I am the only person I know who avoids shifting while the car is moving.

I just went over 200k in my Ford van.  Not by choice.

----------


## libertyjam

> WebApp is crap.  I drink coffee and eat chocolate, but I am very careful about sourcing my coffee and cocoa beans.  It doesn't account for anything like that at all.  It just assumes that if you drink x amount of coffee, you use y amount of slaves.  However all my coffee and chocolate is fair trade.  I have leather shoes but they are Doc Martins, my cotton is made in the USA, the list goes on.  If you are conscientious about product sourcing to avoid actual slavery, then this web app is extremely inaccurate because it fails to account for such.


Yea, I didn't look into the methodology at all, just thought it was a funny little footnote to complement Weston's post.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> I would question that.  When I was a kid, nobody drove a car, or would buy a car, past 100,000 miles.   These days it's pretty common to see cars with 200k, even 300k miles on them.   I can't find it now, but I just read an article about the average lifespan of vehicles, and they said that in the 1970's it 80k miles, in the 1980's got 120-130k miles, the '90's were up to 150k miles.  I am no mechanic, but that seemed to match my observations.
> 
> My cars seem to always lose their transmissions though, not their engines.  Which ticks me off, because _I am the only person I know who avoids shifting while the car is moving._
> 
> I just went over 200k in my Ford van.  Not by choice.


 Must be hell starting from a stop in 4th gear.  Surely you aren't talking about cruizing highway speeds in 2nd gear?

If you are talking about an automatic, then preventing the transmission from shifting is probably quite harmful.

Sorry, that bolded piece really makes no sense to me.  When you are moving is exactly when you want to shift.  And I make race clutches last longer than OEM because I use them for precision not launch.  IE when moving. soooo...

----------


## GunnyFreedom

1992 Chevy S-10 350k miles, original motor and trans.  still happy after all these years.

----------


## angelatc

> Yea, but what if they aren't capable as you believe?  What if their options are severely limited or their fascist/communist nation-state prevent them from refusing to continue being a "valued" member of society?  And no these jobs are being shipped out from America (as well including other nations) to elsewhere thereby creating this demand to which you speak.  The "demand", as you allege, did not exist prior to that.  Meanwhile, cities all across America are collapsing left and right, more and more Americans are becoming subservient to their government for financial aid, the middle-class is waning.  The last remaining jobs are mostly part-time, mind-numbing retail, unskilled labor with zero benefits and little pay.
> 
> What if those workers are hoping and praying for people like to you take a stand for them and demand their better treatment for both themselves and their nation-state?  As an ethical consumer do you not hold an obligation towards the betterment of humanity, e.g., if you knowingly purchase stolen goods have you not involved yourself in the criminal's wrongful act?
> 
> The people of China, South Africa, etc. were there long before these corporations even existed, and they will just as likely be there after they have used them all up and leave.


None of what you said negates what I said.  Cheap labor=jobs.  Jobs=labor shortages.  Labor Shortages=Higher wages.    America was built on the backs of American labor.  Child labor, slavery...you name it , we did it.  When the people became prosperous as a result of the relatively short equation I have now posted twice, society changed.  People stopped sending their children into the work force, and do-gooders like you then (but only then) managed to get laws passed to keep the poor family next door from doing it either.  Slavery didn't end because of some liberal moral enlightment - it ended because of economic pressure.   

Not buying the products that these people make doesn't do anything except put them out of work.  For those of us that think that a small amount of money is better than no money at all, \jobs are a good thing.

And don't even get me started on benefits.  I wish corporations didn't provide any benefits. Wage caps, which is how benefit packages came to be,  are one of the worst things the government ever did here.   

You people amaze me.  YOu bitch about being enslaved by the corporations, then bitch because the corporations aren't doing enough to keep the slaves dependent on them.  Corporations suck, governments suck.  The less either of them do for us, the better off we are.

----------


## chudrockz

> 1992 Chevy S-10 350k miles, original motor and trans.  still happy after all these years.


Holy sheepsh** that's alot of miles! As I mentioned before I have a "new" (to me) 1995 GMC Sierra 2500 with 71k miles. It's the first truck I've ever owned. And going from a Geo Tracker to that was quite the change. But I love it!

----------


## angelatc

> Must be hell starting from a stop in 4th gear.  Surely you aren't talking about cruizing highway speeds in 2nd gear?
> 
> If you are talking about an automatic, then preventing the transmission from shifting is probably quite harmful.
> 
> Sorry, that bolded piece really makes no sense to me.  When you are moving is exactly when you want to shift.  And I make race clutches last longer than OEM because I use them for precision not launch.  IE when moving. soooo...


Nah - it's an automatic.  I meant shifting from reverse into drive while the car is still moving backwards.  My grandpa's mechanic told me that's one of the worst things you can do to an automatic transmission.  Of course, that was 30 years ago, so I suppose that information could be outdated.

----------


## angelatc

> Holy sheepsh** that's alot of miles! As I mentioned before I have a "new" (to me) 1995 GMC Sierra 2500 with 71k miles. It's the first truck I've ever owned. And going from a Geo Tracker to that was quite the change. But I love it!


Heh - good luck going back to small cars.  That's all I'm saying .

----------


## chudrockz

> Nah - it's an automatic.  I meant shifting from reverse into drive while the car is still moving backwards.  My grandpa's mechanic told me that's one of the worst things you can do to an automatic transmission.  Of course, that was 30 years ago, so I suppose that information could be outdated.


My wife HATES it when I "do" that!! Of course, I claim, I believe with validity, that I actually shift from reverse to drive (through neutral) when the car is at a stop, but what do I know? Wives are always right!

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Nah - it's an automatic.  I meant shifting from reverse into drive while the car is still moving backwards.  My grandpa's mechanic told me that's one of the worst things you can do to an automatic transmission.  Of course, that was 30 years ago, so I suppose that information could be outdated.


No, that would still be pretty horrible.  I don't actually know anybody who would mangle a tranny like that.  You must know a lot of careless people.  

But an automatic transmission will never, ever last as long as a standard.

----------


## phill4paul

> I would question that.  When I was a kid, nobody drove a car, or would buy a car, past 100,000 miles.   These days it's pretty common to see cars with 200k, even 300k miles on them.   I can't find it now, but I just read an article about the average lifespan of vehicles, and they said that in the 1970's it 80k miles, in the 1980's got 120-130k miles, the '90's were up to 150k miles.  I am no mechanic, but that seemed to match my observations.
> 
> My cars seem to always lose their transmissions though, not their engines.  Which ticks me off, because I am the only person I know who avoids shifting while the car is moving.
> 
> I just went over 200k in my Ford van.  Not by choice.


  Vehicles last for as long as they are _maintained_ and there is a steady supply of parts. It matters not the year. I've was handed down a '69 Chevy station wagon that had over 150,000 miles on it in the early '80's. My dad _maintained_ it. And there was a steady supply of parts. Transmission flushing, filters and adequit fill level is part of _maintenance_.

----------


## chudrockz

> Heh - good luck going back to small cars.  That's all I'm saying .


It's funny. My first car was a 1955 Chevy (bought around 1990). Then I sold it for a down payment on a '96 Geo Metro. Then that bit the dust, my dad gifted me his '97 Geo Tracker. Now THAT is gone (we gave it away) and I'm driving a '95 GMC. Go figure. I really do like it, though. 13 mpg but my daily commute (round-trip) is only eight miles.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Holy sheepsh** that's alot of miles! As I mentioned before I have a "new" (to me) 1995 GMC Sierra 2500 with 71k miles. It's the first truck I've ever owned. And going from a Geo Tracker to that was quite the change. But I love it!


Also a 2002 Acura RSX type S with 150k miles.

I stack miles on like cordwood.

----------


## specsaregood

> Vehicles last for as long as they are _maintained_ and there is a steady supply of parts.


I've gotten over 300k on 3 ford trucks, broncoII,Explorer,Ranger.  All of them were still running when i gave them to friends.

----------


## chudrockz

> Also a 2002 Acura RSX type S with 150k miles.
> 
> I stack miles on like cordwood.


I really don't anymore. A long time ago I used to deliver pizza for a living, and then commute a LONG way to hang out with my girlfriend. Now she's my wife, and I have a seven minute drive to work.

----------


## phill4paul

> I've gotten over 300k on 3 ford trucks, broncoII,Explorer,Ranger.  All of them were still running when i gave them to friends.


  ^^^ Maintenance and parts availability FTW.

----------


## Anti Federalist

I concur.


*Miss The $#@!box?*

April 6, 2011
By eric

http://ericpetersautos.com/2011/04/06/miss-the-$#@!box/

I miss $#@!boxes.

They don’t make them anymore – not really. Modern economy cars are not $#@!boxes.

A $#@!box is something like an ’80s-era Ford Escort or – even better – a Hyundai Excel or Geo Metro. No one makes a car like that anymore. I mean, a car that can’t outrun a Moped – or does so just barely – literally. If you weren’t around then, you have no idea how bad it was. Zero to 60 times in the 15-30 second range, with top speeds around 85 mph… maybe, if the car was in good tune and you were on a downhill stretch. God help you if you hit something. Or something hit you. Three-speed automatics and four-speed manuals, no overdrive. Doors that closed with less solidity than the bi-fold metal dividers you find in ancient single-wides. A speedometer and a gas gauge, nothing more. They leaked, they rusted out early and they sucked to drive.

The only thing they did do well was not eat too much gas – or cost a lot to buy.

Modern economy cars are nothing like that.

The least of them can reach 60 mph in about 10 seconds and will do 110-plus. Most have air conditioning – standard - and are fitted out with a complete set of instruments and almost always not-half-bad stereo rig – usually with at least a single-slot CD player and four speakers. Every single one of them comes with at least driver and front-seat passenger air bags. Many have side impact and head/curtain bags, too. Anti-lock brakes and stability/traction control are pretty common.

Far from $#@!ty – or even boxy. Some, like the ’11 Ford Fiesta are nice enough in their own right that you’d think about buying one just because you like it, not because you need it or can’t buy anything better.

You have to be at least in your mid-30s today to understand how utterly the landscape has changed. Old enough to have driven, say, a Datsun B210, a Toyota Starlet, Subaru Justy, Yugo, Chevette, early K-car or Plymouth Champ. A real $#@!box. Something with 14-inch steel wheels and the cheapest, skinniest tires this side of a Pee Wee Herman’s bicycle. So underpowered that top speed runs and 0-60 times were both more or less the same things. The finest Soviet bloc materials on the inside; carpets if you were lucky.

No air bags, no ABS – and the impact protection of a brightly painted cardboard box. If you hit something, you’d feel it. Hit a tree , and it would be the very last thing you’d feel, too.

But they did have their charms… .

With easy-screech handling came an opportunity to hone your driving skills.

Anyone who spent some seat time parking brake U-turning a Starlet has one up on a driver who hasn’t had the experience. Without ABS and with barely marginal stopping power, one learned all about following distances and planning ahead… .

You also learned to plan a head. You kept a can of ether in the glovebox to hose down the throat of the single barrel carb when the little son-of-bitch wouldn’t start on cold mornings, a rag in the glovebox to wipe down the fogged-up windshield and a roll of duct tape under the seat at all times. You dressed warmly in winter, too – because either the heat didn’t work or the car was so drafty it didn’t matter if it did. In summer, you were shirtless – layers of electrical tape keeping the seat springs from jabbing you in the balls too much.

A friend in high school had an especially wretched little Subaru. Reverse crapped out, but the forward gears still worked. So we had to Fred Flintstone it out of the 7-11 parking lot. But as much as we cursed it, it gave us lots of story fodder.

I can’t think of a single postmodern economy car that’s memorable in the way the old stuff was. They rarely break down and none of them are dangerous or even unpleasant to drive. They have AC, adequate stereos. Decent seats. More and more of them either have or offer GPS and satellite radio, too. Driving cross-country in one would not be an ordeal.

But I doubt we’ll have anything much to say about them 20 years from now – and that tells me we’re the poorer for it, somehow. Especially today’s kids. The “$#@!box Experience” has come and gone like real Coke with cane sugar, lawn darts and catalytic converter “test pipes.”

They’re missing out on something – but they’ll never know what it was.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> ^^^ Maintenance and parts availability FTW.


Bingo.

I can get NAPA parts for a 40 year old F150, no problem.

----------


## angelatc

> ^^^ Maintenance and parts availability FTW.


Yeah, and another thing - rust.  Cars that were made of metal struggled with rust a lot more than the cars of today do.


Hahaha - just read the $#@!box post!  My friend in high school had 4 daughters, and a passion for buying POS cars.  I remember a big ol 60's lincoln that had no reverse - unless we could find a spot where we could pull through, we weren't parking.

He gave all his daughters' friends jumper cables one year for Christmas 

He also bought a tow truck, because he got tired of paying other people to tow his cars.

He was awesome.

----------


## Raudsarw

If there are ny protectionists in this thread, would you mind answering these two questions?

1) If protectionism would help the US economy, couldn't it also help regions within the country? Shouldn't states also enact protectionist measures? Why not counties, towns? Ultimately, logic would dictate that divison of labor should be done away with entirely. 
2) Why exactly is it bad that our products are made by Chinese? I don't see much complaining when a company decides to move its factories from one state to the next.

----------


## tfurrh

> My friend in high school had 4 daughters,

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> If there are ny protectionists in this thread, would you mind answering these two questions?
> 
> 1) If protectionism would help the US economy, couldn't it also help regions within the country? Shouldn't states also enact protectionist measures? Why not counties, towns? Ultimately, logic would dictate that divison of labor should be done away with entirely. 
> 2) Why exactly is it bad that our products are made by Chinese? _I don't see much complaining when a company decides to move its factories from one state to the next._


You must have missed the whole Obama Boeing South Carolina thing.

----------


## phill4paul

> Yeah, and another thing - rust.  Cars that were made of metal struggled with rust a lot more than the cars of today do.


  Blame that on the 5 year clear coat prevalent at the time.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> If there are ny protectionists in this thread, would you mind answering these two questions?
> 
> 1) If protectionism would help the US economy, couldn't it also help regions within the country? Shouldn't states also enact protectionist measures? Why not counties, towns? Ultimately, logic would dictate that divison of labor should be done away with entirely.


No, not really, since, for better or worse, most of the trade and business regulations are federal. Now, if you could open a business that made cars, let's say, and you could, by virtue of not selling any cars outside the state, avoid compliance with EPA and NHTSA regulations, then of course, I'd be all for that.

And division of labor is fine, until it gets to point where it is so divided that you literally do not know and cannot do anything for yourself anymore.

And when that happens, as nation or an individual, there is a loss of freedom and independence.




> 2) Why exactly is it bad that our products are made by Chinese? I don't see much complaining when a company decides to move its factories from one state to the next.


Because of point two above and because you will not maintain your freedom if the entire middle class goes away and becomes nothing but a dependency class, relying on government for handouts and dole to survive. This is already well underway.

And you will have no middle class if the globalization race to the bottom continues as it is right now.

I'm sorry your liberty (and mine) is directly hitched to that, but, it is.

----------


## angelatc

> 


Oh, he had 2 sons too.  But they only had 1 bathroom.  

When I was a senior in high school, he started remodeling the house.  The bathroom was gutted. Using the potty involved taking a bucket of water upstairs with you.   Somehow we survived.

When I went back for my 10 year high school reunion, the bathroom still wasn't finished.

----------


## angelatc

> No, not really, since, for better or worse, most of the trade and business regulations are federal. Now, if you could open a business that made cars, let's say, and you could, by virtue of not selling any cars outside the state, avoid compliance with EPA and NHTSA regulations, then of course, I'd be all for that.
> 
> And division of labor is fine, until it gets to point where it is so divided that you literally do not know and cannot do anything for yourself anymore.
> 
> And when that happens, as nation or an individual, there is a loss of freedom and independence.
> 
> 
> 
> Because of point two above and because you will not maintain your freedom if the entire middle class goes away and becomes nothing but a dependency class, relying on government for handouts and dole to survive. This is already well underway.
> ...


We had no middle class for the first 120 years of the nations existence.  I'm perfectly fine going back to the two party system, being the working class and the upper class.  But like you pointed out - that's not where we're headed.  We're headed for the ruling class and the worker class.

----------


## chudrockz

Ha! Speaking of my "new used" 1995 GMC pickup, I just got the title today in the mail!

No security interests, baby. F'in right, doggy!

----------


## phill4paul

> Ha! Speaking of my "new used" 1995 GMC pickup, I just got the title today in the mail!
> 
> No security interests, baby. F'in right, doggy!


  Lol. Rock on chud!

----------


## donnay

Sure Wal-Marx is working hand in hand with government.

----------


## Vanilluxe

Ironically SF Bay Area has no Walmart at all, but all Targets and Costcos.  7 million without a Walmart

----------


## KingNothing

> I would question that.  When I was a kid, nobody drove a car, or would buy a car, past 100,000 miles.   These days it's pretty common to see cars with 200k, even 300k miles on them.   I can't find it now, but I just read an article about the average lifespan of vehicles, and they said that in the 1970's it 80k miles, in the 1980's got 120-130k miles, the '90's were up to 150k miles.  I am no mechanic, but that seemed to match my observations.
> 
> My cars seem to always lose their transmissions though, not their engines.  Which ticks me off, because I am the only person I know who avoids shifting while the car is moving.
> 
> I just went over 200k in my Ford van.  Not by choice.


You're right. And the improvements to cars (cars which now require computers to analyze!  OH NOS!) has been brought on by new technology, new materials, new design techniques and improved supply chain infrastructures which have lowered overall costs.

People who wax nostalgic about the good ol' days and how They used to make 'em are beyond foolish.

Now you get cars with LIFETIME WARRANTIES, ridiculous improvements to safety, and a litany of creature comforts for the same price or less -after adjusting for inflation- as you did in the good ol' days.  But, heaven forbid, cars now utilize computers.  HOW EVIL!!  

Things are better now.  Some just refuse to acknowledge it.

----------


## phill4paul

> Ironically SF Bay Area has no Walmart at all, but all Targets and Costcos.  7 million without a Walmart


  That's a bit of trivia I'd never had known.

----------


## phill4paul

> You're right. And the improvements to cars (cars which now require computers to analyze!  OH NOS!) has been brought on by new technology, new materials, new design techniques and improved supply chain infrastructures which have lowered overall costs.
> 
> People who wax nostalgic about the good ol' days and how They used to make 'em are beyond foolish.


  You obviously didn't read any of the posts that followed.

----------


## satchelmcqueen

i worked there a few months last year. trust me, this company cares for no one but its self. its pure evil.

----------


## tod evans

I'm glad that you like the new autos. I'm sure they represent a fantastic value in your eyes.

Me.......I've got an old '56 that my son will inherent and probably his son after that. 

You're right the mileage isn't the greatest and safety features are non-existent...Then again in 1956 people tended to rely on common sense more than "systems" designed by auto manufacturers.

Warranties and 'puters....Not either with a '56.....However every year it's value increases and yet i can fix damn near anything on the rig for under $200.00. 

Parts are available in all 50 states and most foreign countries as well as "standard" sized tires that are well under $100.00 ea.

But you're right it gets "poor" mileage and offers little in the way of creature safety or comfort when compared to todays vehicles....And the paint's no longer shiny.

Keep on truckin'..........I will.





> You're right. And the improvements to cars (cars which now require computers to analyze!  OH NOS!) has been brought on by new technology, new materials, new design techniques and improved supply chain infrastructures which have lowered overall costs.
> 
> People who wax nostalgic about the good ol' days and how They used to make 'em are beyond foolish.
> 
> Now you get cars with LIFETIME WARRANTIES, ridiculous improvements to safety, and a litany of creature comforts for the same price or less -after adjusting for inflation- as you did in the good ol' days.  But, heaven forbid, cars now utilize computers.  HOW EVIL!!  
> 
> Things are better now.  Some just refuse to acknowledge it.

----------


## angelatc

> i worked there a few months last year. trust me, this company cares for no one but its self. its pure evil.


Oh honey, no company cares for anybody but itself.  

My sister-in-law left Penneys to work for WalMart because they paid her more, and was eager to be accommodating and flexible with her schedule.  She was working her way through school.

----------


## angelatc

> You're right. And the improvements to cars (cars which now require computers to analyze!  OH NOS!) has been brought on by new technology, new materials, new design techniques and improved supply chain infrastructures which have lowered overall costs.
> 
> People who wax nostalgic about the good ol' days and how They used to make 'em are beyond foolish.
> 
> Now you get cars with LIFETIME WARRANTIES, ridiculous improvements to safety, and a litany of creature comforts for the same price or less -after adjusting for inflation- as you did in the good ol' days.  But, heaven forbid, cars now utilize computers.  HOW EVIL!!  
> 
> Things are better now.  Some just refuse to acknowledge it.


I don't know that more complicated = better.  My Dad could rebuild a carburetor for $30 bucks, but he can't rebuild the circuit board, and it costs $300 to replace. 

ANd I'll never believe that a little Toyota is safer than a huge Lincoln.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> But you're right it gets "poor" mileage and offers little in the way of creature safety or comfort when compared to todays vehicles....And the paint's no longer shiny.


I find it equally out of place, (as some folks no doubt do finding "protectionist" thoughts on RP forums) that some people are defending as the greatest thing since sliced bread, the most heavily regulated and bailed out business in the country.

One so heavily regulated, that, even though there is a market for it, people like me and you, that would buy a *new* version of the car you are describing, cannot, due to federal laws.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> I don't know that more complicated = better.  My Dad could rebuild a carburetor for $30 bucks, but he can't rebuild the circuit board, and it costs $300 to replace. 
> 
> ANd _I'll never believe that a little Toyota is safer than a huge Lincoln._


On that one at least you may be very surprised.  They have done some pretty amazing things with crumple zones and safety cages.  In a serious front-end collision you are liable to end up with the Lincoln's engine in your lap.  The Toyota will eject it's motor to the asphalt and crumple like a ball of paper, but maintain the cabin remarkably intact.  Compact car safety has come a LONG long way in the last 20-30 years.

----------


## phill4paul

> I find it equally out of place, (as some folks no doubt do finding "protectionist" thoughts on RP forums) that some people are defending as the greatest thing since sliced bread, the most heavily regulated and bailed out business in the country.
> 
> One so heavily regulated, that, even though there is a market for it, people like me and you, that would buy a *new* version of the car you are describing, cannot, due to federal laws.


  "Free" market that we have and all.....

----------


## Anti Federalist

> "Free" market that we have and all.....


Exactly.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> On that one at least you may be very surprised.  They have done some pretty amazing things with crumple zones and safety cages.  In a serious front-end collision you are liable to end up with the Lincoln's engine in your lap.  *The Toyota will eject it's motor to the asphalt* and crumple like a ball of paper, but maintain the cabin remarkably intact.  Compact car safety has come a LONG long way in the last 20-30 years.


An unintended benefit of transverse engine mounting for FWD.

----------


## AME3

How does it feel being the smartest one in here angelatc? Seriously, you are the most informed person here in regards to various subjects especially economics and plain old common sense. Kudos to you!

----------


## angelatc

> How does it feel being the smartest one in here angelatc? Seriously, you are the most informed person here in regards to various subjects especially economics and plain old common sense. Kudos to you!


Well, I am certainly not smarter than anybody else here.  We're all just smart in different areas.  Most embarrassing liberty secret?  I wouldn't know how to load ammo into the simplest firearm out there.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Well, I am certainly not smarter than anybody else here.  We're all just smart in different areas.  Most embarrassing liberty secret?  I wouldn't know how to load ammo into the simplest firearm out there.


That took guts.

I'm sure plenty of folks would be happy to show you how.

----------


## angelatc

> That took guts.
> 
> I'm sure plenty of folks would be happy to show you how.


Yes, I blame myself.  There's a shooting range not two miles from here, and the local antique dealer also teaches a CCW class.  I'm sure he'd be happy to show me the ropes.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> That took guts.
> 
> I'm sure plenty of folks would be happy to show you how.


This^^  gotta respect angie. ~hugs angie~

----------


## angelatc

> This^^  gotta respect angie. ~hugs angie~


Awww - it's always a good day when HB gives out a hug!

----------


## chudrockz

> Well, I am certainly not smarter than anybody else here.  We're all just smart in different areas.  Most embarrassing liberty secret?  I wouldn't know how to load ammo into the simplest firearm out there.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to angelatc again.

My wife would be happy to show you.

----------


## phill4paul

> Awww - it's always a good day when HB gives out a hug!


  You can get them any day or everyday here...http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...highlight=hugs

----------


## AME3

I nominate angie to be our official rock! She dosn't need to know how to shoot, she's got an army of us "protectors" to keep the bad guys at bay. Ladies such as her always do...
Although, like swimming it's a skill that should be acquired by all, IMHO.

----------


## phill4paul

> I nominate angie to be our official rock! She dosn't need to know how to shoot, she's got an army of us "protectors" to keep the bad guys at bay. Ladies such as her always do...
> Although, like swimming it's a skill that should be acquired by all, IMHO.


  WTF are you on about? What's got a bug up your butt?

  Edit: AHEM...http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...lines-shall-we

----------


## K466

Seriously?

Okay, what would Ron Paul think? He'd say this anti-Walmart stuff is mostly bs. Wal-Mart is good. Statism is the enemy.

I'm shocked some anti-free-trade thought still exists in the liberty movement, good grief.

----------


## tod evans

> I wouldn't know how to load ammo into the simplest firearm out there.


Powder in first, then wadding and finally the ball...

----------


## phill4paul

> Seriously?
> 
> Okay, what would Ron Paul think? He'd say this anti-Walmart stuff is mostly bs. Wal-Mart is good. Statism is the enemy.
> 
> I'm shocked some anti-free-trade thought still exists in the liberty movement, good grief.


  Let me catch you up by giving you the tl;dr version.

  Wal-mart has *NOTHING* to do with free trade. There is no free trade in international affairs when a government is a fascist one.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Powder in first, then wadding and finally the ball...


 Remember to keep the powder dry till ready to shoot.

----------


## specsaregood

> Yeah, I could easily bore this thread to death by talking about the demographics of the average Whole Food shopper.  However, the overwhelming majority of them do NOT buy all their groceries there.   They go in and pick up perishables and a few personal favorite specialty items, then go to Walmart for the staples.


You just described our family to a T, except target instead of walmart.




> You're absolutely right, but they tend to manipulate their markets by insisting that their landlords not allow competitors set up shop in the same strip.


Yeah that makes sense as to why you don't see such stores.  Unfortunately they are probably hurting themselves more, since I would probably do more shopping at WW, if I could go to a general store in the same strip and get the things I'm not paying for at WW.  Otherwise, you are required to do 2 trips to stores; whereas I can go to a traditional grocery store and buy TP and PT without having to get another mortgage.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Seriously?
> 
> Okay, what would Ron Paul think? He'd say this anti-Walmart stuff is mostly bs. Wal-Mart is good. Statism is the enemy.
> 
> I'm shocked some anti-free-trade thought still exists in the liberty movement, good grief.


Free trade is great.  Corporatism is not free trade.  

How can we be claiming free trade, until the government regulations are removed for everyone?

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Having a lot of employees doesn't necessarily mean a good thing.  The government has a lot of employees, just sayin'.


Yeah, but I didn't say that, did I?

----------


## Weston White

> Seriously?
> 
> Okay, what would Ron Paul think? He'd say this anti-Walmart stuff is mostly bs. Wal-Mart is good. Statism is the enemy.
> 
> I'm shocked some anti-free-trade thought still exists in the liberty movement, good grief.


I am rather certain that Ron Paul does NOT support any practices whatsoever involving slave-labor and neither is any of that what Austrian economics about.  If you believe that either the former and/or the latter are actually the case, then you are ill-informed and sadly mistaken.

Individuals do not realize their own liberty and freedom by using the backs of others as their springboard to achieving such a means to an end.  This profound logic was written into our own Declaration of Independence.

----------


## Ender

> I am rather certain that Ron Paul does NOT support any practices whatsoever involving slave-labor and neither is any of that what Austrian economics about.  If you believe that either the former and/or the latter are actually the case, then you are ill-informed and sadly mistaken.
> 
> Individuals do not realize their own liberty and freedom by using the backs of others as their springboard to achieving such a means to an end.  This profound logic was written into our own Declaration of Independence.


You keep chanting "slave labor" but you know not what you speak.

The real "slave labor" are Americans chained to the 9-5, insurance, taxes, unions, SS, etc. Few can escape- and they pay for most of the world problems going on today. China's people work for a whole lot less, but they don't have the rest of the American burden. Friends that I have in China say that in many ways, it is much freer than the US of A.

----------


## tttppp

> You keep chanting "slave labor" but you know not what you speak.
> 
> The real "slave labor" are Americans chained to the 9-5, insurance, taxes, unions, SS, etc. Few can escape- and they pay for most of the world problems going on today. China's people work for a whole lot less, but they don't have the rest of the American burden. Friends that I have in China say that in many ways, it is much freer than the US of A.


Even people with good 9-5 jobs today can barely afford to live on their own. 9-5 generally turns into 9-9 and generally just gives you enough money to get back to work the next day.

----------


## donnay

> Yeah, but I didn't say that, did I?


This is what you said:




> I don't think it was the tone, I think it was the language. It was horrendous. *The whole article acted like having a lot of employees and generating a lot of revenue is a bad thing, and that's virtually all it focused on*. The wording was generic and lathered in bias. There was no recognition of the fact that Wal Mart offers good services and good products. If this was a libertarian article in any sense of the word, all of the "Wal Mart makes SO much money" crap would be completely left out.





> Originally Posted by *donnay*
> Having a lot of employees doesn't necessarily mean a good thing. The government has a lot of employees, just sayin'.

----------


## misean

> I am rather certain that Ron Paul does NOT support any practices whatsoever involving slave-labor and neither is any of that what Austrian economics about.  If you believe that either the former and/or the latter are actually the case, then you are ill-informed and sadly mistaken.
> 
> Individuals do not realize their own liberty and freedom by using the backs of others as their springboard to achieving such a means to an end.  This profound logic was written into our own Declaration of Independence.


I would say there is pretty much a 100 percent chance that Ron Paul is on the opposite side of this issue from you.    Tom Woods definitely is.  Mises wrote about "slave labor" and and the Industrial Revolution in Human Action and took what would amount to the pro Wal-Mart side. Peter Schiff has talked about the virtues of Wal-Mart.

----------


## showpan

*When you buy from a mom and pop business
You are not helping a CEO buy fuel for his Lear jet or a third vacation home

You are helping a little girl get dance lessons
A little boy get his first team jersey
A Mom or Dad put food on the table
A family pay their mortgage
A student pay for college

Our customers are our shareholders and they are the ones we strive to make happy* 

Walmart does not pay enough to put food on the table or any of the other things above. While some managers might be flexible as far as scheduling...MOST ARE NOT and you are strictly at their mercy. It would be rare for a manager to change your hours to work around someones day care or children's school for instance. They can also change your hours at a moments notice and those who complain all of a sudden end up with very reduced hours from the normal measly 25 hours down to 2 hours...lol
WalMart has $#@!ed this country up and pumped millions into lobbying for NAFTA.
How anyone in a liberty forum can defend them is shocking.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Wal Marx bakery FAIL.

Does not surprise me that they don't know how to spell it.

----------


## specsaregood

When my mom needed a few hundred dollars worth of supplies for her classroom that wasn't in the district budget she wrote the local small town walmart manager a letter.   He called her back and told her to come by and get all the supplies.  no paperwork, no fuss, just here you go.   just saying...

----------


## donnay

> When my mom needed a few hundred dollars worth of supplies for her classroom that wasn't in the district budget she wrote the local small town walmart manager a letter.   He called her back and told her to come by and get all the supplies.  no paperwork, no fuss, just here you go.   just saying...


You know what is even more of a shame; the money they steal from people to pay for schools, and not having enough money to pay for the supplies.

----------


## Weston White

> You keep chanting "slave labor" but you know not what you speak.
> 
> The real "slave labor" are Americans chained to the 9-5, insurance, taxes, unions, SS, etc. Few can escape- and they pay for most of the world problems going on today. China's people work for a whole lot less, but they don't have the rest of the American burden. Friends that I have in China say that in many ways, it is much freer than the US of A.


1.  For the most part all (so-called modern) nations have gone on to enslave their citizens as mere chattel, effecting a revolutionized feudal system.

2.  The result in first/second world nations is the additional burden of indentured servitude; that is to say debt-slavery.

3.  Slave-labor is different in that it procures from the bottom up (private interests) as opposed from the top down (governmental interests); for which the latter is the ultimate consequence of abuses in government being waged amongst the common masses, consequently resulting in the various appendages of debt-slavery.

----------


## Weston White

> You know what is even more of a shame; the money they steal from people to pay for schools, and not having enough money to pay for the supplies.


Precisely, nobody really bothers looking at the big picture, the causes and effects, and the like.  They all just want a savior to worship, and for a few it would seem that savior is the lights of Walmart; where you can still get two-for-one and hell they will even toss in a “Buddy Christ” for half-price!

----------


## satchelmcqueen

let me explain more without typing a novel. the damn orientation was almost like a nazi camp. nothing but how walmart cares for the communities yet in the next section we are told that other businesses in town dont deserve their customers that we should strive to make all the people walmart customers. its just to much crap to type right now. i ask anyone really wanting to get the inside scoop on their world domination motives to just go get hired and at least sit through the days and days of drill videos they make you watch. you also realize that by doing so you are for all intents giving up any right you have as an employee of theirs and asked to take 100% blame for anything at all that may happen. it goes beyond any other place ive ever worked at and trust me, ive worked for some real $#@!ty selfish places.


> Oh honey, no company cares for anybody but itself.  
> 
> My sister-in-law left Penneys to work for WalMart because they paid her more, and was eager to be accommodating and flexible with her schedule.  She was working her way through school.

----------


## satchelmcqueen

yep. i was hired in as fulltime. i didnt realize their full time was 32 hrs, not 40. i was paid $8.25 to work in the tire center. the first 3 weeks i worked anywhere from 37-39hrs. the next 2 weeks they worked me only 32 hrs and 2 of those days were just 4 hrs each which meant i spent more for gas going for less than a full day. i quit. 

also yes, they did change my schedule without even a phone call to make sure i knew about it. i was also scolded for clocking in 2 minutes early 3 days in a row. they count the "ticks" (seconds on the clock) and if your over, iirc, 50 ticks in a week they write you up. after 3 write ups youre fired. same with lunch breaks. you literally spent some of your lunch break standing at the clock with 20 other people just so you wouldnt go over or under a few seconds.

also you werent allowed to take tips, which i guess is fine if its company policy. but if the customer gives it to you anyway, youre supposed to take the money to the main office which they will take and donate to charity in walmarts name. sooo when you hear that walmart donated millions of dollars to charity, a lot of it came from the pockets of the employees. if you got caught not turning the money in, you were fired. one story in the orientation was of how a man gave 3 walmart employees each a 1 oz gold coin for helping him carry out his tv. they had to turn it in to the office. the lady actually bragged about how that was almost $3000 that walmart donated to charity. it was hard to sit through it all.

another video dealt with unions and how they ruin walmarts ability to best suit the employees. pure lies in this video. yet in the next video we learned how wally world re structured its pay scale to cut employees wages down to nothing simply by moving them to another job and starting them over at base pay. this was played off as being loyal to the company.

we were also told that we were expected to work anytime any day no matter what regardless of what was promised at the interview.

oh and btw, i never actually stepped foot in the tire center section as i was doing these stupid orientation videos for the entire time. which im kinda glad as one of the car lifts fell with a car on it and almost crushed a guy because walmart wouldnt fix the stop bracket that had been reported broken for weeks. 

and for the main point that needs to be outted in public. the tire center boss told me how short handed they had been for months in that department. walmarts policy for overtime is ZERO or you get fired. the only way is for a manager to approve it first which never happened with this boss. he told me that he worked anywhere from 4 - 10 hrs overtime each week just so his men wouldnt be alone under the racks, which funny enough is walmart policy that there must always be at least 2 men on a lift when in use. however he wasnt paid for the time. so yes, walmart still does this and gets away with it. i told him to turn them in and he said he couldnt cause he would lose his job.

this was the one in blairsville ga if anyone needs to know.




> *When you buy from a mom and pop business u are not helping a CEO buy fuel for his Lear jet or a third vacation home
> 
> You are helping a little girl get dance lessons
> A little boy get his first team jersey
> A Mom or Dad put food on the table
> A family pay their mortgage
> A student pay for college
> 
> Our customers are our shareholders and they are the ones we strive to make happy* 
> ...

----------


## Texan4Life

> Emphasis added.
> 
> You don't actually believe that do you?
> 
> ETA - specifically, Mom and Pop stores don't generally have the volume or the turnover to make Chinese imports worthwhile once you calculate shipping cost and time.  By and large, _actual_ Mom and Pop stores do tend a lot more towards "Made in the USA" goods because at the volume they turn over it's legitimately cheaper for them to buy from those suppliers, or the price point is so close that they go with American manufactured goods figuring that the loyalty factor will compensate for the 0.1% difference in cost.
> 
> Also, a lot of times the same model of the same brand when sold at WalMart vs a traditional retailer is a different product.  I learned this first hand when doing research to get a brand that I was VP of the company for into WalMart.  This is particularly true of lawn mowers yard tractors and such.  WalMart demands so much high production at so much low pricing that companies that get shelfspace will often turn up a whole new factory or a new production line to produce equipment for sale at WalMart only, which factory or line gets equipped with much cheaper component parts, more less expensive automation leads to a poorer fit and finish, the list goes on.
> 
> I can't recall the brand offhand, (was it John Deere? Honestly don't remember) but I know that more than one gas-powered yard equipment manufacturer actually pulled out of WalMart because the necessity of having a "WalMart line" of their same products more cheaply manufactured was damaging their reputation.
> ...


interesting. i just based if off my experience when living in a few different ultra rural areas when a chain/big box store is 50+ miles away, mostly hardware stores. Many products looked identical to harbor freight or home depot/lowes, but had a 25-100% mark up. plus it was older stock. 

I had to buy a hard to find car part (emissions part) at an independent auto parts place that ordered the wrong part (turns out the one i needed was no longer made) Ended up taking longer for them to get it so I was back home when they finally did. I had them mail it to me. Turned out to be the wrong part, called, emailed, and even sent the part back with copy of the receipt and delivery confirmation. They refused delivery. They knowingly did not want to give me my $500 refund cuz then they would have a part that would collect dust with the others. 

Maybe it's cuz I'm not old enough to remember the "good ol days" or that the small independent places I have done business with left a bad taste in my mouth

----------


## Weston White

> We had no middle class for the first 120 years of the nations existence.  I'm perfectly fine going back to the two party system, being the working class and the upper class.  But like you pointed out - that's not where we're headed.  We're headed for the ruling class and the worker class.


Yes there were, they were known as the bourgeois (middle class-traders, merchants, shop keepers, craftsman, farmers, ranchers, etc.), as opposed to peons and laborers (lower class-serfs, manual labor, subordinates, low skill workers), or capitalists and robber-barons (upper class-venture entrepreneurialism, business owners and educated professionals, etc.)

----------


## thequietkid10

Some of you people




> let me explain more without typing a novel. the damn orientation was almost like a nazi camp. nothing but how walmart cares for the communities yet in the next section we are told that other businesses in town dont deserve their customers that we should strive to make all the people walmart customers. its just to much crap to type right now. i ask anyone really wanting to get the inside scoop on their world domination motives to just go get hired and at least sit through the days and days of drill videos they make you watch. you also realize that by doing so you are for all intents giving up any right you have as an employee of theirs and asked to take 100% blame for anything at all that may happen. it goes beyond any other place ive ever worked at and trust me, ive worked for some real $#@!ty selfish places.





> yep. i was hired in as fulltime. i didnt realize their full time was 32 hrs, not 40. i was paid $8.25 to work in the tire center. the first 3 weeks i worked anywhere from 37-29hrs. the next 2 weeks they worked me only 32 hrs and 2 of those days were just 4 hrs each which meant i spent more for gas going for less than a full day. i quit. also yes, they did change my schedule without even a phone call to make sure i knew about it. i was also scolded for clocking in 2 minutes early 3 days in a row. they count the "ticks" (seconds on the clock and if your over iirc 50 ticks a weeks they write you up. after 3 write ups youre fired. same with lunch breaks. you literally spent some of your lunch break standing at the clock with 20 other people just so you wouldnt go over or under a few seconds.


Sounds like a $#@!ty place to work.  Welcome to capitalism bud.  The people who manage Walmart are free to try and make it as efficient as possible.  They aren't there to make your like pleasurable because they know that you aren't special.  There is a line a mile long behind you of people who can do your job.  If you don't like it, find a better place to work or improve your ability to produce.

Look in a libertarian society Walmart would probably treat they're employees better because there will be more competition for good employess.  What Walmart wouldn't do is stop buying from the producer that produces the cheapest stuff, which probably won't be the United States.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> *When you buy from a mom and pop business
> You are not helping a CEO buy fuel for his Lear jet or a third vacation home
> 
> You are helping a little girl get dance lessons
> A little boy get his first team jersey
> A Mom or Dad put food on the table
> A family pay their mortgage
> A student pay for college
> 
> ...


Both sides of the "Wally World is evil" debate are interesting to me.  I'm taking the pragmatic approach and giving Wally World the benefit of the doubt for now.  If I determine they are just typical corporate statist folks, I'll take the anti-wally world position.  Thnx, bye.

----------


## Weston White

> None of what you said negates what I said.  Cheap labor=jobs.  Jobs=labor shortages.  Labor Shortages=Higher wages.    America was built on the backs of American labor.  Child labor, slavery...you name it , we did it.  When the people became prosperous as a result of the relatively short equation I have now posted twice, society changed.  People stopped sending their children into the work force, and do-gooders like you then (but only then) managed to get laws passed to keep the poor family next door from doing it either.  Slavery didn't end because of some liberal moral enlightment - it ended because of economic pressure.   
> 
> Not buying the products that these people make doesn't do anything except put them out of work.  For those of us that think that a small amount of money is better than no money at all, \jobs are a good thing.
> 
> And don't even get me started on benefits.  I wish corporations didn't provide any benefits. Wage caps, which is how benefit packages came to be,  are one of the worst things the government ever did here.


Still you have failed to address the moral aspects of the notions that you are supportive of.

Your equation is not entirely correct, as there is no such thing as labor shortages when considering unskilled labor, save for in very specialized fields, which only provides limited positions for employment anyways, such as deep mining, work in far away places, such as in the Antarctic, under water, rainforests, etc.

In fact, the real reason that labor wages have gone up is due to the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 (and also why child-laborers was largely ended), while also having to do with unyielding inflation within our hokey monetary system.

Slavery ended because of an Amendment to our U.S. Constitution and not from economical pressure, i.e., slaves were not financially compensated, the evolving circumstances had more to do with political pressure resulting from threats of secession from the Southern States on a myriad of issues (with the polarizing one being border disputes), the concern over slavery was merely a practicality of secondary convenience.  For example, how many other nations had to have a civil war to cease slavery within their national borders?

Well the continuance of purchasing those products consequently puts more, and more, and more people out of work here in America, and moreover doing so results in less, and less, and less work (as more businesses continue following suit and shipping their jobs overseas to that golden vista of slave-labor) and lower, and lower, and lower wages and diminishing employment benefits (as the job market floods out with more and more unemployed workers) for those still fortunate enough to be employed (however, long that may or may not be).

The government should not be involved in the process of employee/employer contracting, to which should be perfectly within the private rights of both the employee and their employer to devise a just and appropriate arrangement for establishing their professional relationship -while besetting a minimum of national standards on the part of the government is for the most part is also reasonable, such as defining a workweek, overtime, reasonable recompense, fair practices, consideration to extreme cold or heat, hazardous work, etc.

----------


## Weston White

> 


Now the only real question I have is were they attempting to spell _independence_ or _dependence_?

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

> 


AWESOME!

Thanks for posting!

+rep

-t

----------


## KingNothing

> yep. i was hired in as fulltime. i didnt realize their full time was 32 hrs, not 40. i was paid $8.25 to work in the tire center. the first 3 weeks i worked anywhere from 37-39hrs. the next 2 weeks they worked me only 32 hrs and 2 of those days were just 4 hrs each which meant i spent more for gas going for less than a full day. i quit. 
> 
> also yes, they did change my schedule without even a phone call to make sure i knew about it. i was also scolded for clocking in 2 minutes early 3 days in a row. they count the "ticks" (seconds on the clock) and if your over, iirc, 50 ticks in a week they write you up. after 3 write ups youre fired. same with lunch breaks. you literally spent some of your lunch break standing at the clock with 20 other people just so you wouldnt go over or under a few seconds.
> 
> also you werent allowed to take tips, which i guess is fine if its company policy. but if the customer gives it to you anyway, youre supposed to take the money to the main office which they will take and donate to charity in walmarts name. sooo when you hear that walmart donated millions of dollars to charity, a lot of it came from the pockets of the employees. if you got caught not turning the money in, you were fired. one story in the orientation was of how a man gave 3 walmart employees each a 1 oz gold coin for helping him carry out his tv. they had to turn it in to the office. the lady actually bragged about how that was almost $3000 that walmart donated to charity. it was hard to sit through it all.
> 
> another video dealt with unions and how they ruin walmarts ability to best suit the employees. pure lies in this video. yet in the next video we learned how wally world re structured its pay scale to cut employees wages down to nothing simply by moving them to another job and starting them over at base pay. this was played off as being loyal to the company.
> 
> we were also told that we were expected to work anytime any day no matter what regardless of what was promised at the interview.
> ...



That is basically the same complaint that anyone could offer about any hourly, corporate job.  
When I was in high school, I worked for a local grocer that didn't let us clock in a minute early.  So what?  They're counting pennies.  Where's the harm?

----------


## PierzStyx

> *When you buy from a mom and pop business
> You are not helping a CEO buy fuel for his Lear jet or a third vacation home
> 
> You are helping a little girl get dance lessons
> A little boy get his first team jersey
> A Mom or Dad put food on the table
> A family pay their mortgage
> A student pay for college
> 
> Our customers are our shareholders and they are the ones we strive to make happy*


This is propaganda, pure and true. I can easily argue that buying stuff at Wal-Mart keeps the company successful and literally thousands of people in jobs they would not otherwise have. See mom and pop stores can't afford to hire all the people Wal-Mart can. Wal-Mart hires as many people as any mom and pop store in any local market x10. If I pay Wal-Mart it pays its employees who in turn use their money to pay for everything you listed.




> Walmart does not pay enough to put food on the table or any of the other things above. While some managers might be flexible as far as scheduling...MOST ARE NOT and you are strictly at their mercy. It would be rare for a manager to change your hours to work around someones day care or children's school for instance. They can also change your hours at a moments notice and those who complain all of a sudden end up with very reduced hours from the normal measly 25 hours down to 2 hours...lol
> WalMart has $#@!ed this country up and pumped millions into lobbying for NAFTA.
> How anyone in a liberty forum can defend them is shocking.


So? Welcome to the free market. Employment is based on the demands of the employer, not the employee. You want a better job? get better more specialized skills. That is simply how the market works in this day and age. And that has nothing to do with Wal-Mart and everything to do with the level of advanced technology our society has become dependent upon. At least Wal-Mart gives more unskilled laborers more jobs. With mom and pop businesses they can't afford to hire as many people because they don't sell as much for as cheap or make as much profit. This means more unemployed people on welfare, not less.

----------


## PierzStyx

> I am rather certain that Ron Paul does NOT support any practices whatsoever involving slave-labor and neither is any of that what Austrian economics about.  If you believe that either the former and/or the latter are actually the case, then you are ill-informed and sadly mistaken.
> 
> Individuals do not realize their own liberty and freedom by using the backs of others as their springboard to achieving such a means to an end.  This profound logic was written into our own Declaration of Independence.


Hate to break it to you but Dr. Paul DOES support overseas work and global free markets. In this video he talks about how good Apple is by doing this an dthe benefit it brings to their consumer. Since Apple has been lumped in with Wal-Mart before in this thread, the statement should be applicable to Wal-Mart as well, since they both have similar business practices.





Have fun stupidly calling paid, voluntary, wage labor "slave labor", btw.

----------


## PierzStyx

> Wal Marx bakery FAIL.
> 
> Does not surprise me that they don't know how to spell it.



Actually, thanks for making my point AF. Where else would such unskilled laborers get a job? The choices are few and far in between, but Wal-Mart hires many, many, many of them.

----------


## Weston White

PierzStyx it is abundantly clear that your posts are stuffed full of misinformation.

Ron Paul is not directly addressing the concern of slave-labor within his statement; he is addressing overseas manufacturing and trade.  But notice two key issues he did bring up, (1) we are increasing the wealth of China and consequently they are purchasing United States debt with their new found wealth and (2) that pretty soon this whole “ballgame” will be up and that we had better prepare ourselves for it.

Before Apple recently gave a few pay raises (mostly as a result of the unwanted attention they have been receiving from their form of slave-labor), they were paying their foreign serfs $150 a month for making their $500 a unit product lines, they have since brought that up to around $250 a month (not including the additional increase in pay resulting from their many additional hours of mandatory overtime of about an additional $150), while also it seems increasing their weekly hours.

As well, I am also supportive of “overseas work and global free markets”, just not when it is ultimately disadvantageous to those involved that are doing all of the actual work involved and moreover when it leaves a negative vacuum effect here at home, sapping America’s strength and resilience.

Perhaps Ron Paul is not too keen on the working conditions at Apple’s foreign operations (i.e., Foxconn)?  Personally, I find it very, very hard to believe that a man so pro-life and who is an astute libertarian (i.e., constitutionalist) would or could in-fact be so cold to such individual concerns and interests just because those involved are not themselves Americans.

As to a related aspect, would I be correct in assuming that your type is perfectly accepting of prison labor as well, e.g., Unicor?


For example:

In China, Human Costs Are Built Into an iPad

Inside Apple's Chinese 'sweatshop' factory where workers are paid just £1.12 per hour to produce iPhones and iPads for the West

Apple manufacturing plant workers complain of long hours, militant culture 

A Foxconn Worker Shares Why He Hates Making iPhones

----------


## Weston White

> Actually, thanks for making my point AF. Where else would such unskilled laborers get a job? The choices are few and far in between, but Wal-Mart hires many, many, many of them.


Yea, really, maybe they should change their name to Wal-Smart.

----------


## tod evans

At the risk of being redundant here's my opinion from yesterday;




> When each of us make the choice to purchase goods from overseas we are consciously supporting the cheapest labor pool.
> 
> The USA was built with American labor.
> 
> The fallacy that we as a nation can successfully support ourselves with our intellectual superiority and military might is showing itself in spades the last decade.
> 
> From a dumb-ass country boy perspective "we" need to make stuff here...All of the arguments back and forth about different views of economics and global market places boils down to the US labor pool must compete for manufacturing dollars with China/India and other third world countries.
> 
> It makes sense to me that getting "our government" completely out of business would be a good thing, no more welfare support for wal-mart workers, and no more protectionist foreign policies for out of country manufacturing, if Americans choose to buy foreign made goods then Americans need to deal with the starving labor pool right here at home. Thinking that somehow with enough subsidies ol' Billy-Bob who's only really able to perform assembly line work can elevate himself to the ranks of stock-broker or doctor is nothing more than smoke-n-mirrors. 
> ...






> PierzStyx it is abundantly clear that your posts are stuffed full of misinformation.
> 
> Ron Paul is not directly addressing the concern of slave-labor within his statement; he is addressing overseas manufacturing and trade.  But notice two key issues he did bring up, (1) we are increasing the wealth of China and consequently they are purchasing United States debt with their new found wealth and (2) that pretty soon this whole ballgame will be up and that we had better prepare ourselves for it.
> 
> Before Apple recently gave a few pay raises (mostly as a result of the unwanted attention they have been receiving from their form of slave-labor), they were paying their foreign serfs $150 a month for making their $500 a unit product lines, they have since brought that up to around $250 a month (not including the additional increase in pay resulting from their many additional hours of mandatory overtime of about an additional $150), while also it seems increasing their weekly hours.
> 
> As well, I am also supportive of overseas work and global free markets, just not when it is ultimately disadvantageous to those involved that are doing all of the actual work involved and moreover when it leaves a negative vacuum affect here at home, sapping Americas strength and resilience.
> 
> Perhaps Ron Paul is not too keen on the working conditions at Apples foreign operations (i.e., Foxconn)?  Personally, I find it very, very hard to believe that a man so pro-life and who is an astute libertarian (i.e., constitutionalist) would or could in-fact be so cold to such individual concerns and interests just because those involved are not themselves Americans.
> ...

----------


## moostraks

> Actually, thanks for making my point AF. Where else would such unskilled laborers get a job? The choices are few and far in between, but Wal-Mart hires many, many, many of them.


They provide a subpar product after driving away all the competition, then jack up the prices leaving the community with inferior products _and_ high prices as well as a labor pool that has their healthcare and welfare provided for by the rest of society. If Walmart was not hiring these folks and paying them for their work with no interest in quality maybe they could be educated rather than wallow in ignorance. (And by educating I also include on the job training by companies who care about the customer and the products they provide...)

----------


## VoluntaryAmerican

For the sake of an _honest_ arguement, here is the definition of slave labor:

slave labor  
noun 
1. persons, especially a large group, performing labor under *duress or threats*, as prisoners in a concentration camp; a labor force of slaves or slavelike prisoners.

----------


## misean

I can't stop looking at this. It is entirely baffling to me that this would be even a debate on a Ron Paul Forum.  This thread soundslike a Communist forum. Its fine to take the opposite side of Ron Paul, but at least recognize that Ron Paul would have no objection to sweatshops. It's the position of EVERY good economist that I have ever heard.  Besides the 16 other articles that support Wal-Mart already posted, here is one from Tom DiLorenzo titled "How "Sweatshops" Help the Poor." Ron Paul has cited DiLorenzo in the past and he would have very likely been an economic advisor to Ron Paul had he won.


http://mises.org/daily/2384






> Perhaps Ron Paul is not too keen on the working conditions at Apple’s foreign operations (i.e., Foxconn)? * Personally, I find it very, very hard to believe that a man so pro-life and who is an astute libertarian (i.e., constitutionalist) would or could in-fact be so cold to such individual concerns and interests just because those involved are not themselves Americans.
> *


I find it very hard to believe that you have not read any of the reasons explaining why that is faulty thinking, so I've included yet another article that refutes it. Its not like not well, maybe he is against Apple working conditions, maybe he is for Apple working conditions.  EVERY economist that Ron Paul would listen to would side with given poverty stricken people a job to earn capital and have capital enter their country even at low wages. Milton Friedman talked about this. Mises talked about this. The only economists who disagree are people like Paul Krugman and Robert Reich.

----------


## VoluntaryAmerican

> I can't stop looking at this. It is entirely baffling to me that this would be even a debate on a Ron Paul Forum.  This thread soundslike a Communist forum. Its fine to take the opposite side of Ron Paul, but at least recognize that Ron Paul would have no objection to sweatshops. It's the position of EVERY good economist that I have ever heard.  Besides the 16 other articles that support Wal-Mart already posted, here is one from Tom DiLorenzo titled "How "Sweatshops" Help the Poor." Ron Paul has cited DiLorenzo in the past and he would have very likely been an economic advisor to Ron Paul had he won.
> 
> 
> http://mises.org/daily/2384
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find it very hard to believe that you have not read any of the reasons explaining why that is faulty thinking, so I've included yet another article that refutes it. Its not like not well, maybe he is against Apple working conditions, maybe he is for Apple working conditions.  EVERY economist that Ron Paul would listen to would side with given poverty stricken people a job to earn capital and have capital enter their country even at low wages. Milton Friedman talked about this. Mises talked about this. The only economists who disagree are people like Paul Krugman and Robert Reich.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to misean again.

----------


## angelatc

> let me explain more without typing a novel. the damn orientation was almost like a nazi camp. nothing but how walmart cares for the communities yet in the next section we are told that other businesses in town dont deserve their customers that we should strive to make all the people walmart customers.


They're right.  That's their job.    When I worked in the small Mom & Pop hardware store, we were always fighting to make sure our customers didn't go to the bigger competitors, and they were trying like anything to put us out of business.  

This is why some people, including me, aren't cut out to run businesses.

----------


## angelatc

> Hate to break it to you but Dr. Paul DOES support overseas work and global free markets. In this video he talks about how good Apple is by doing this an dthe benefit it brings to their consumer. Since Apple has been lumped in with Wal-Mart before in this thread, the statement should be applicable to Wal-Mart as well, since they both have similar business practices.
> 
> 
> Have fun stupidly calling paid, voluntary, wage labor "slave labor", btw.


This is why I fear (and I hope I am wrong) that the liberty movement will fail.  The liberals are taking over the movement - you can see it all over these forums.  Arguing morality and "slave wages" over  economic law, and passionately believing it?  

They want to run the world.

----------


## Weston White

> For the sake of an _honest_ arguement, here is the definition of slave labor:
> 
> slave labor  
> noun 
> 1. persons, especially a large group, performing labor under *duress or threats*, as prisoners in a concentration camp; a labor force of slaves or slavelike prisoners.


And did you even bother to read those articles?  Such conditions certainly seem to meet your above definition fairly well.  What more, after all, can one expect from a communist nation?

Like, totally hello, reality is calling you, the workers are killing themselves while at work, the buildings are now encompassed with "suicide-netting", the employees are required to work over 60-hours a week in 10-hour shifts, they are required to stay there paying for both a shared room and eating for a company cafeteria.

Actually, perhaps you do have a point... I think prisoners might actually have it better than the workers.  

Please, quit being so blatantly dense.  You make yourself appear only silly.

----------


## angelatc

> That is basically the same complaint that anyone could offer about any hourly, corporate job.  
> When I was in high school, I worked for a local grocer that didn't let us clock in a minute early.  So what?  They're counting pennies.  Where's the harm?


Exactly.  I'm an accountant, and I can't tell you how expensive overtime is.  I know employees like it, but unless the customers are paying for it, payroll will sink any business faster than anything.  If you think it sucks not being allowed to work overtime, then try being a manager, who has to get an unattainable list of responsibilities done without paying anybody overtime.    




> nd for the main point that needs to be outted in public. the tire center boss told me how short handed they had been for months in that department. walmarts policy for overtime is ZERO or you get fired. the only way is for a manager to approve it first which never happened with this boss. he told me that he worked anywhere from 4 - 10 hrs overtime each week just so his men wouldnt be alone under the racks, which funny enough is walmart policy that there must always be at least 2 men on a lift when in use. however he wasnt paid for the time. so yes, walmart still does this and gets away with it. i told him to turn them in and he said he couldnt cause he would lose his job.


It's his choice. It isn't the government's job to make sure we're all compensated fairly.  I'm just floored that a libertarian would resort to calling in the authorities over this.

When I worked in an office, we had management that would let us work through lunch, and then save up the time so we could take a long lunch later in the month if we needed to.  One disgruntled employee later, the company had to pay millions in fines, and we weren't allowed to do that any more.  

Please - stop helping people.  We're fine - really we are.

----------


## angelatc

> And did you even bother to read those articles?  Such conditions certainly seem to meet your above definition fairly well.  What more, after all, can one expect from a communist nation?
> 
> Like, totally hello, reality is calling you, the workers are killing themselves while at work, the buildings are now encompassed with "suicide-netting", the employees are required to work over 60-hours a week in 10-hour shifts, they are required to stay there paying for both a shared room and eating for a company cafeteria.
> 
> Actually, perhaps you do have a point... I think prisoners might actually have it better than the workers.  
> 
> *Please, quit being so blatantly dense.  You make yourself appear only silly*.


Irony.

----------


## Weston White

> This is why I fear (and I hope I am wrong) that the liberty movement will fail.  The liberals are taking over the movement - you can see it all over these forums.  Arguing morality and "slave wages" over  economic law, and passionately believing it?  
> 
> They want to run the world.


What on this Earth are you even talking about?  ...There so much more to our lives than simply the bottom-line you corporatist (and don't you dare deny that you are not, because if you support businesses such as Walmart, which you apparently do, you are very much so a corporatist and a borderline fascist at that).

Americans owe philosophical considerations to the people of all nations, not just to itself.  The greatness of American fundaments and intellect are not and never were intended to be self-serving tenets.

----------


## Weston White

> Irony.


Entirely, pathetic. Truly.

----------


## specsaregood

Well this thread is relatively entertaining.

----------


## angelatc

> They provide a subpar product after driving away all the competition, then jack up the prices leaving the community with inferior products _and_ high prices as well as a labor pool that has their healthcare and welfare provided for by the rest of society. If Walmart was not hiring these folks and paying them for their work with no interest in quality maybe they could be educated rather than wallow in ignorance. (And by educating I also include on the job training by companies who care about the customer and the products they provide...)


Wow - this thread really shows us how people really feel. And it's sad.  How can we convince people that we should work toward free markets when we don't actually believe it ourselves?

This really doesn't make any sense.  Mom & Pop stores rarely offer any benefits at all, and if WalMart jacks their prices up, other businesses will move back in.  

You think that corporate America should be responsible for their employees healthcare?  And actually, they do offer health insurance.  It's just that a large number of their employees choose not to purchase it.

ANd Walmart does offer training - kathy88 just told us about it.

Part of the problem is the fact that jobs like this used to be considered entry-level. Nobody expected anything over minimum wage for doing mindless work that requires nothing more than being a warm body with thumbs.  Now, the younger crowd believes it's a career, apparently, and they are owed something for being that warm body.

Bit now, here in America, the following list of benefits isn't enough for some people?  


> *HEALTH & WELL-BEING BENEFITS*
> Consumer-directed health plans, including Health Reimbursement Accounts (HRA) plans and a high-deductible plan with a Health Savings Account (HSA). Highlights include:
> 100 percent coverage for eligible network preventive care$4 co-pay on thousands of eligible generic drugsMaternity Program – personal support network before, during and after pregnancyHMO plans (available on a location-by-location basis)Dental insuranceFree confidential counseling and health information serviceQuit Tobacco programCompany-paid life insurance for associates; optional and dependent life insurance availableAccidental death & dismemberment insurance (AD&D)Critical illness insuranceAccident insuranceShort- and long-term disability insuranceAssociate Eyewear Program
> *FINANCIAL BENEFITS*
> 401(k) planAssociate Stock Purchase PlanAssociate Discount Card: various discounts in-store and online at Walmart.com, including 10 percent off fresh fruits and vegetables for Walmart associates/annual membership for Sam’s Club associatesExclusive discounts on travel, entertainment and moreMilitary differential pay


Note that the first option is exactly what a lot of us say is the best solution to the rising health care prices.   If I had my druthers, I'd pass a law saying that if you declined the WalMart insurance package, you didn't qualify for state aid.  People are just greedy - why would they pay for insurance if the state will pay it for them?


I had one of the best jobs in the country for a while, and my benefits package wasn't much different.  We had tuition reimbursement, but that's why I worked my ass off to get a job in that firm.

----------


## chudrockz

> What on this Earth are you even talking about?  ...There so much more to our lives than simply the bottom-line you corporatist (and don't you dare deny that you are not, because if you support businesses such as Walmart, which you apparently do, you are very much so a corporatist and a borderline fascist at that).
> 
> Americans owe philosophical considerations to the people of all nations, not just to itself.  The greatness of American fundaments and intellect are not and never were intended to be self-serving tenets.


New day, new insult:  yesterday Walmart shoppers like myself were terrorists. Today I'm a fascist. You sir, are an idiot.

----------


## donnay

> Hate to break it to you but Dr. Paul DOES support overseas work and global free markets. In this video he talks about how good Apple is by doing this an dthe benefit it brings to their consumer. Since Apple has been lumped in with Wal-Mart before in this thread, the statement should be applicable to Wal-Mart as well, since they both have similar business practices.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have fun stupidly calling paid, voluntary, wage labor "slave labor", btw.



You keep on repeating a "global free market" --  In a perfect world it's doable, but we do not have a perfect world nor do we have "global free market" by any stretch of the imagination.  We do not have unfettered capitalism, in this country either, we have crony capitalism.

Our social security was started as a voluntary premise.  Is it anymore, can I opt-out?  It is because of government taxation such as social security and the unconstitutional; 'income tax' and 'property tax' that make people work for such lowly corporations just to make ends meat, to get by, but not really live.  The American dream is turning out to be a nightmare.

We have been born into a debt slave society--those are the chains that bind us!!  To sit here and argue how good it is to work for mundane wages is beyond the pale.  The insensitivity of your fellow man is truly astounding. Another reason I do not like the attitudes of anarchist.  It's reminds me of the lack of outrage upon finding out that the Tuskegee Airman where shot up with syphilis, because government wanted to use them as guinea pigs.  Or the women who were sterilized, in North Carolina, mostly welfare recipients, so they wouldn't continue another generation on welfare.  Dr. Paul is also for cutting off welfare, do you think he would be okay with having women sterilized, by government, so they do not continue to suck off the welfare tit?


I have owned three businesses and those businesses were fairly successful.  What made me stop was government regulations, not competition.  In one state I was forced, by government, to insure every employee I had.  I could not, and if I did the practices like Wal-Marx does, I was threatened to be audited, constantly.  It's just like the mafia protection racket.  And, if the business were to provide a good product, that helps people get healthy and it threatened any Big Corporation that government protects; i.e.; Big Pharma, Big Agra., the small business gets terrorized by government thugs.  So please spare me your ballyhooing about how we have a capitalistic society where Mom and Pops get an even shake--because they do not.

Wal-Marx et al, have put a noose around the necks of people who want to be self-reliant and become entrepreneurs.  The only way you can be a successful entrepreneurs, in this society, is by getting the nod from government--but that is not the agenda, the agenda is make each and every one of us beholden to government.  As these big corps help to plunder whatever individualism and liberty we once had as a nation.

----------


## angelatc

> Entirely, pathetic. Truly.


You'[re arguing some moral superiority nonsense, while sincerely believing that trumps free market principles.  And you're doing it in Ron Paul Forums?

----------


## angelatc

> Wal-Marx et al, have put a noose around the necks of people who want to be self-reliant and become entrepreneurs.  The only way you can be a successful entrepreneurs, in this society, is by getting the nod from government--but that is not the agenda, the agenda is make each and every one of us beholden to government.  As these big corps help to plunder whatever individualism and liberty we once had as a nation.


Sure, and if you had titled this thread "Corporatism is destroying America" it would have taken a much different tone. 

I hate the government internevtion as much as you do, and yet everyday, somebody succeeds in spite of it.

----------


## Weston White

> I can't stop looking at this. It is entirely baffling to me that this would be even a debate on a Ron Paul Forum.  This thread soundslike a Communist forum. Its fine to take the opposite side of Ron Paul, but at least recognize that Ron Paul would have no objection to sweatshops. It's the position of EVERY good economist that I have ever heard.  Besides the 16 other articles that support Wal-Mart already posted, here is one from Tom DiLorenzo titled "How "Sweatshops" Help the Poor." Ron Paul has cited DiLorenzo in the past and he would have very likely been an economic advisor to Ron Paul had he won.
> 
> I find it very hard to believe that you have not read any of the reasons explaining why that is faulty thinking, so I've included yet another article that refutes it. Its not like not well, maybe he is against Apple working conditions, maybe he is for Apple working conditions.  EVERY economist that Ron Paul would listen to would side with given poverty stricken people a job to earn capital and have capital enter their country even at low wages. Milton Friedman talked about this. Mises talked about this. The only economists who disagree are people like Paul Krugman and Robert Reich.


Again as I had earlier quoted Eugene Bohm-Bawerk (creator of Austrian theory on capital and interest) had postulated that capitalists *do not exploit* their workforces and when you ship employable jobs out of America for the sole motivation of lowering labor costs, only to then ship those manufactured products back into America and then jack up the retail on those items (as if they were made in America by its own workforce all along) that is precisely what you are doing; ergo, this is not about, this has NOTHING to do with Austrian economics.  Nothing at all, period.  

*  Furthermore, there is to be considered the economically destructive effect this entire process instigates.  Setting up a foreign factory for international distribution is one thing, but what is taking place at present is something entirely different.

----------


## angelatc

> What on this Earth are you even talking about?  ...There so much more to our lives than simply the bottom-line you corporatist (and don't you dare deny that you are not, because if you support businesses such as Walmart, which you apparently do, you are very much so a corporatist and a borderline fascist at that).
> 
> Americans owe philosophical considerations to the people of all nations, not just to itself.  The greatness of American fundaments and intellect are not and never were intended to be self-serving tenets.



Again, free markets only function properly when all parties pursue their own self-serving interests.

The bottom line is nothing more than the purest measure of value that society places on goods and services.  

"Americans" don't owe anybody anything, just as they don't owe us anything.  

Just because I don't think Walmart is the problem - I think government corruption is the problem - doesn't make me a corporate fascist.  I think of Walmart much like a business owner who pays protection to keep the mafia from burning the business down.

----------


## angelatc

> Again as I had earlier quoted Eugene Bohm-Bawerk (creator of Austrian theory on capital and interest) had postulated that capitalists *do not exploit* their workforces and when you ship employable jobs out of America for the sole motivation of lowering labor costs, only to then ship those manufactured products back into America and then jack up the retail on those items (as if they were made in America by its own workforce all along) that is precisely what you are doing; ergo, this is not about, this has NOTHING to do with Austrian economics.  Nothing at all, period.  
> 
> *  Furthermore, there is to be considered the economically destructive effect this entire process instigates.  Setting up a foreign factory for international distribution is one thing, but what is taking place at present is something entirely different.


So, business that naturally follows the path of the lowest costs doesn't have anything to do with Austrian economics?

----------


## angelatc

> New day, new insult:  yesterday Walmart shoppers like myself were terrorists. Today I'm a fascist. You sir, are an idiot.


You're still a terrorist.  I'm a fascist.

Let's do lunch!

----------


## Weston White

> New day, new insult:  yesterday Walmart shoppers like myself were terrorists. Today I'm a fascist. You sir, are an idiot.


You do realize that Al Qaeda consists of CIA informants right; that it is a war-drum cooperative for the Executive branch?  "Wal-Qaeda" is a sort of inside pun, because it as well is largely propagated by the federal government, which is why it has such close ties to DHS -also as is Google and most "social" networking Websites (being DARPA funded programs).

----------


## KingNothing

> They provide a subpar product after driving away all the competition, then jack up the prices leaving the community with inferior products _and_ high prices as well as a labor pool that has their healthcare and welfare provided for by the rest of society.



Then do it better than Walmart.  Offer a better product for a better price.  You're describing an inefficient market.  Correct it.  Be the solution!

FWIW, I don't believe the situation you've outlined is true.  Walmart offers the cheapest product that consumers are willing to buy, for the most money consumers are willing to pay for it.  That separates them from no other business.  Period.

----------


## KingNothing

> You do realize that Al Qaeda consists of CIA informants right; that it is a war-drum cooperative for the Executive branch?  "Wal-Qaeda" is a sort of inside pun, because it as well is largely propagated by the federal government, which is why it has such close ties to DHS -also as is Google and most "social" networking Websites (being DARPA funded programs).


 Yeah, and Tim Osman was a CIA asset too!  Al Qaeda is just a facade, maaaaan!  It's all the CIA!  They've bought the millions of illiterate islamists who support the Muslim Brotherhood too, maaaan!!


...I should expect similar delusions from you.

----------


## specsaregood

> "Wal-Qaeda" is a sort of inside pun, because it as well is largely propagated by the federal government, which is why it has such close ties to DHS -also as is Google and most "social" networking Websites (being DARPA funded programs).


So basically if you are anti-walmart then you are anti-american!

----------


## KingNothing

If we had an economic environment with less barriers to entry, no oppressive regulations and no corporate taxes, and an education paradigm that wasn't built on turning students into indentured servants for banks and universities, maybe we'd live in a nation where people could find better jobs than the low-skill, low-wage positions that Walmart predominantly offers.

----------


## tod evans

> If we had an economic environment with less barriers to entry, no oppressive regulations and no corporate taxes, and an education paradigm that wasn't built on turning students into indentured servants for banks and universities, maybe we'd live in a nation where people could find better jobs than the low-skill, low-wage positions that Walmart predominantly offers.


But we don't and magic wands are in short supply.

More government is NEVER the answer.

----------


## moostraks

> Then do it better than Walmart.  Offer a better product for a better price.  You're describing an inefficient market.  Correct it.  Be the solution!
> 
> FWIW, I don't believe the situation you've outlined is true.  Walmart offers the cheapest product that consumers are willing to buy, for the most money consumers are willing to pay for it.  That separates them from no other business.  Period.


1-no, my job is raising my family so I don't have the time or inclination to do per your suggestion and am pointing out what many of us see with the "logic" of the necessary evil of walmart employment 2-it is a government corrupted environment not merely an inefficient market.

I pay more for local products willingly. The government is making it less and less possible for local sellers to make ANY money under the guise of public safety laws which only protect their corrupt cohorts that line their coffers. Lack of morality and failure to call _all_ the participants out on the corruption is the problem imo. It ain't gonna be solved by playing their game. This also circles back to ineffective,immoral education in the government schools that demand to control society much to society's own detriment.

----------


## KingNothing

> But we don't and magic wands are in short supply.
> 
> More government is NEVER the answer.


What?  It wouldn't take a magic wand to create the environment I suggest.  It would take following the Constitution and electing politicians like Ron Paul to every level of government.

Walmart isn't the problem, because Walmart would not exist if consumers did not embrace it.

----------


## tod evans

> What?  It wouldn't take a magic wand to create the environment I suggest.  It would take following the Constitution and electing politicians like Ron Paul to every level of government.
> 
> Walmart isn't the problem, because Walmart would not exist if consumers did not embrace it.


I don't blame Wal-Mart, in fact I've said they are very smart.

Neither do I like them.

I agree that we need RP folks in government, we also need about 80% less federal government both expenditures and employees.

The last thing "we" need is more legislation, a true patriot would move to repeal years of bad legislation instead of ever proposing one new piece.

----------


## Weston White

> You'[re arguing some moral superiority nonsense, while sincerely believing that trumps free market principles.  And you're doing it in Ron Paul Forums?


And meanwhile you are arguing that your tact is nothing less than advantageous to foreign workforces and their nation; who are in sum being outright exploited and their one time natural resources stripped, being replaced only by hazardous waste, horrid working conditions, and warped employee recompense.  Such is something you might expect from any number of other nations, but definitely not from America.

Human nature is relational to moral laws.  Perhaps it might realize solace unto your heart and soul by reading Smith's _Theory of Moral Sentiments_?

----------


## Weston White

> Again, free markets only function properly when all parties pursue their own self-serving interests.
> 
> The bottom line is nothing more than the purest measure of value that society places on goods and services.  
> 
> "Americans" don't owe anybody anything, just as they don't owe us anything.  
> 
> Just because I don't think Walmart is the problem - I think government corruption is the problem - doesn't make me a corporate fascist.  I think of Walmart much like a business owner who pays protection to keep the mafia from burning the business down.


No, what you are describing is the underlying symptom of the vastly larger problem.

I depict that in your plush little fantasy world Walmart (and such other businesses) is entirely innocent in all of this, being nothing more than a victim of unjust circumstance, trying to make it along, but such is utterly skewed of all reality.

----------


## specsaregood

> The last thing "we" need is more legislation, a true patriot would move to repeal years of bad legislation instead of ever proposing one new piece.


So neither Ron nor Rand nor Amash are "true patriots" by your statement.  interesting.

----------


## KingNothing

> I agree that we need RP folks in government, we also need about 80% less federal government both expenditures and employees.
> 
> The last thing "we" need is more legislation, a true patriot would move to repeal years of bad legislation instead of ever proposing one new piece.


So why are you arguing with me?  I said lower taxes and cut regulation.  What's your deal here?

----------


## tod evans

> So why are you arguing with me?  I said lower taxes and cut regulation.  What's your deal here?


Who's arguing?

----------


## Weston White

> So, business that naturally follows the path of the lowest costs doesn't have anything to do with Austrian economics?


Within logic, through prudence, and without exploitation of others. Such a lofty goal can be accomplished though ethical reasoning, you view the equation only as possessing a singular path that is also the ambivalently extreme.  There are many other factors involved, at play, whereby you desire to avoid.

----------


## tod evans

> So neither Ron nor Rand nor Amash are "true patriots" by your statement.  interesting.


They're as close as we're going to see in my lifetime.....Ethical carries lots of weight in my book.

----------


## Weston White

> So basically if you are anti-walmart then you are anti-american!


I suppose it is all how one defines "anti-American", i.e., the correct way or the Janet Napolitano, DHS way?

----------


## Weston White

> If we had an economic environment with less barriers to entry, no oppressive regulations and no corporate taxes, and an education paradigm that wasn't built on turning students into indentured servants for banks and universities, maybe we'd live in a nation where people could find better jobs than the low-skill, low-wage positions that Walmart predominantly offers.


This is just meaningless gibberish.  The woes of America did not begin until all of these UN-WTO FTA' began appearing from both the left and from the right.

----------


## Weston White

> More government is NEVER the answer.


Government can still function effectively without occupying between 40-60% of all jobs within each individual state; it does not require further growth to make necessary changes, only amendments to existing invalid law and/or newly prudent law.

----------


## angelatc

> You do realize that Al Qaeda consists of CIA informants right; that it is a war-drum cooperative for the Executive branch?  "Wal-Qaeda" is a sort of inside pun, because it as well is largely propagated by the federal government, which is why it has such close ties to DHS -also as is Google and most "social" networking Websites (being DARPA funded programs).


 "SQUIRREL!"

----------


## angelatc

> Government can still function effectively without occupying between 40-60% of all jobs within each individual state; it does not require further growth to make necessary changes, only amendments to existing invalid law and/or newly prudent law.


And there you have it - some poor young lad that still believes it can be fixed.

Son, it's kudzu.

----------


## angelatc

> This is just meaningless gibberish.  The woes of America did not begin until all of these UN-WTO FTA' began appearing from both the left and from the right.


And again - irony.  You actually just said you agreed with him, right after you called it meaningless gibberish.

----------


## angelatc

> Within logic, through prudence, and without exploitation of others. Such a lofty goal can be accomplished though ethical reasoning, you view the equation only as possessing a singular path that is also the ambivalently extreme.  There are many other factors involved, at play, whereby you desire to avoid.


Who gets to define "exploitation" and "ethics?"

----------


## Weston White

> And again - irony.  You actually just said you agreed with him, right after you called it meaningless gibberish.





> "economic environment with less barriers to entry, no oppressive regulations and no corporate taxes, and an education paradigm that wasn't built on turning students into indentured servants for banks and universities"


No, those are neither an excuse nor free-pass for:




> "a nation where people could find better jobs than the low-skill, low-wage positions that Walmart predominantly offers."

----------


## angelatc

> No, what you are describing is the underlying symptom of the vastly larger problem.
> 
> I depict that in your plush little fantasy world Walmart (and such other businesses) is entirely innocent in all of this, being nothing more than a victim of unjust circumstance, trying to make it along, but such is utterly skewed of all reality.


Really?  What government obstacles does Walmart not face that smaller retailers do face.  They have to deal with health inspectors, building codes, labor laws, hostile city governments, ignorant customers, employees who steal, customers who steal, OSHA, lawyers, food poisoining  - the amount of documentation and paperwork they're required to produce on a daily basis (all in the name of compliance) is enough to support several cottage industries.  

And here's another kicker - no other non-specialty retailer pays it's employees any worse than Walmart does.  Go to Kroger, or Meijer, or Safeway, and you'll find that the pay scale is remarkably similar,  with one big difference:  the Walmart employees aren't pitching "their fair share" into the union coffers.  

This whole whole "Walmart is evil!" meme is nothing more than liberal propaganda designed to punish America's largest non-union shop for not caving into the unions.

----------


## donnay

> Sure, and if you had titled this thread "Corporatism is destroying America" it would have taken a much different tone. 
> 
> I hate the government internevtion as much as you do, and yet everyday, somebody succeeds in spite of it.



Wal-Marx is just one part of the corporatist facade.  Part of the Global Good Ol' boy system that is plundering what ever little self-worth this country had?  Not to mention, the living conditions of people in other countries.

Have you seen the news where people in China who cannot afford day care for their children?  They literally put leashes on their children and tied them to poles, with a bowl full of food and water for 8 to 10 hours a day.

 

Look at that picture for a minute.  This is so we can have our cheap little gadgets, gizmos and trinkets.  Those Chinese people volunteer to work in those conditions--uh huh.  Where's the humanity?  (This is not directed towards you, pe se--this is to everyone as a whole).

Most people in this country wouldn't treat their dogs like that.  But sooner or later, those conditions will be here, if we do not wake people up to these deplorable conditions (out of sight - out of mind), then it affects all of us globally.


Sources:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ave-uncle.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...hild-care.html

----------


## angelatc

> No, those are neither an excuse nor free-pass for:


Nobody owes these people anything.  If they are low-skilled workers, they deserve low wages.  That's the only fair way to do it.  There's nothing at all pragmatic about low-skill, high wage jobs.

----------


## Weston White

> Who gets to define "exploitation" and "ethics?"


Common sense, professional responsibility, or otherwise religious guidance are not enough for you?  What is that now?  Oh no, you are totally lacking in those abilities, well alright then, how's about our combined organic law, natural law, and core American values?  Really, this is still not working out for you? Oh don't fret, for how's about some public law or otherwise common law?

----------


## Ender

> Really?  What government obstacles does Walmart not face that smaller retailers do face.  They have to deal with health inspectors, building codes, labor laws, hostile city governments, ignorant customers, employees who steal, customers who steal, OSHA, lawyers, food poisoining  - the amount of documentation and paperwork they're required to produce on a daily basis (all in the name of compliance) is enough to support several cottage industries.  
> 
> And here's another kicker - no other non-specialty retailer pays it's employees any worse than Walmart does.  Go to Kroger, or Meijer, or Safeway, and you'll find that the pay scale is remarkably similar,  with one big difference:  the Walmart employees aren't pitching "their fair share" into the union coffers.  
> 
> This whole whole "Walmart is evil!" meme is nothing more than liberal propaganda designed to punish America's largest non-union shop for not caving into the unions.


Exactly.

Walmart is constantly painted with an evil brush because it will not unionize. If it did, the "evil" rhetoric would suddenly disappear.

----------


## angelatc

> Wal-Marx is just one part of the corporatist facade.  Part of the Global Good Ol' boy system that is plundering what ever little self-worth this country had?  Not to mention, the living conditions of people in other countries.
> 
> Have you seen the news where people in China who cannot afford day care for their children?  They literally put leashes on their children and tied them to poles, with a bowl full of food and water for 8 to 10 hours a day.
> 
>  
> 
> Look at that picture for a minute.  This is so we can have our cheap little gadgets, gizmos and trinkets.  Those Chinese people volunteer to work in those conditions--uh huh.  Where's the humanity?  (This is not directed towards you, pe se--this is to everyone as a whole).
> 
> Most people in this country wouldn't treat their dogs like that.  But sooner or later, those conditions will be here, if we do not wake people up to these deplorable conditions (out of sight - out of mind), then it affects all of us globally.
> ...



Here's the real kicker.  I don't care.  In my book the kids are much  better off hanging out with their working parents all day than they are being stuck in some pertri dish disguised as a  daycare facility. And I think society as a whole would be better off if kids did more work and less "nothing" at a younger age.

If the factory is rounding up people at gunpoint and forcing them to work, then maybe I'd be a little more put out.  But as long as they mothers are choosing to work, I am going to assume she knows what's best for her and her family.  She's willing to make sacrifices, and I"m willing to help her by supporting the people giving her a job.

Americans went through the same thing. The only problem is that it gave birth to the labor unions, who ruined the manufacturing industry here.  You see hand-wringing unfairness - I see a natural business cycle, which will rectify itself if we don't "help."

----------


## angelatc

> Common sense, professional responsibility, or otherwise religious guidance are not enough for you?  What is that now?  Oh no, you are totally lacking in those abilities, well alright then, how's about our combined organic law, natural law, and core American values?  Really, this is still not working out for you? Oh don't fret, for how's about some public law or otherwise common law?


You didn't answer the question.  Who gets to define those terms, since clearly we don't define them in the same manner.

----------


## Barrex

Why is this most popular thread on RPF?... and what it has to do with RP?
(I am from croatai and dont get it.)

----------


## Ender

> Government can still function effectively without occupying between 40-60% of all jobs within each individual state; it does not require further growth to make necessary changes, only amendments to existing invalid law and/or newly prudent law.


This is nonsense.

The answer to markets leveling and growing is NO GOVERNMENT. Amendments are BS- nullification of all unconstitutional laws is the only answer.

True capitalism can only exist under freedom- you deliver a product I want, I buy it. You deliver something I do not want- I don't buy it. And you rethink your product and business to come up with something better.

If people do not want Walmart's products, then stay away- if they do, they are free to shop. If they don't get enough money, work somewhere else, because we ALL know how stable the economy is at the moment.

----------


## Ender

> Why is this most popular thread on RPF?... and what it has to do with RP?
> (I am from croatai and dont get it.)


It is because this thread is about real capitalism and the lack of knowledge, thereof.

----------


## Ender

> Here's the real kicker.  I don't care.  In my book the kids are much  better off hanging out with their working parents all day than they are being stuck in some pertri dish disguised as a  daycare facility. And I think society as a whole would be better off if kids did more work and less "nothing" at a younger age.
> 
> If the factory is rounding up people at gunpoint and forcing them to work, then maybe I'd be a little more put out.  But as long as they mothers are choosing to work, I am going to assume she knows what's best for her and her family.  She's willing to make sacrifices, and I"m willing to help her by supporting the people giving her a job.
> 
> Americans went through the same thing. The only problem is that it gave birth to the labor unions, who ruined the manufacturing industry here.  You see hand-wringing unfairness - I see a natural business cycle, which will rectify itself if we don't "help."


Again, we agree.

----------


## tod evans

> Government can still function effectively without occupying between 40-60% of all jobs within each individual state; it does not require further growth to make necessary changes, only amendments to existing invalid law and/or newly prudent law.



What we have isn't working.

Look back at all of the "good ideas" that were instituted as policy or law that now drag the average working American down. (I don't consider ANY federal employee, except military, a "working American)

If states want to tax their population and use that money to pay for social services and the politicians to manage them, then I'm all for it. (I would live in another state)

The governments financial load on the working citizens has been unsustainable for decades yet government continues to grow.

As to "the effective functioning" of government...........I would suppose it would depend on what you consider "effective"..

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Why is this most popular thread on RPF?... and what it has to do with RP?
> (I am from croatai and dont get it.)


Wal-Mart is controversial.  Americans (as well as brits and most others) love controversy and sensationalism.  Just reading this thread you get an idea of how emotional the arguments on both sides can be.  I'm a little young, but it _seems_ that emotion, bickering, and drama are a lot more popular than back in the 80s and 90s.

----------


## angelatc

> Wal-Mart is controversial.  Americans (as well as brits and most others) love controversy and sensationalism.  Just reading this thread you get an idea of how emotional the arguments on both sides can be.  I'm a little young, but it _seems_ that emotion, bickering, and drama are a lot more popular than back in the 80s and 90s.


I heard someone on the radio today who mentioned he suspected that the TV talking heads might have influenced that behavior somewhat.  I thought he might be on to something.

Having said that, I view the idea that somehow America needs to be responsible for creating "ethical" working conditions across a global economy to be elitist and frightening.   WalMart is only 1 of a million different companies that buy things from China.    

Liberals want somebody else to do something about everything - it's their hallmark.

----------


## tod evans

I see both your and Angels position....

It speaks volumes of the morals in our society that we choose to subsidize this with our patronage.

It also speaks volumes about WM business acumen.

I don't expect any business to have morals.

However I refuse to patronize businesses I believe to be unethical.





> Wal-Marx is just one part of the corporatist facade.  Part of the Global Good Ol' boy system that is plundering what ever little self-worth this country had?  Not to mention, the living conditions of people in other countries.
> 
> Have you seen the news where people in China who cannot afford day care for their children?  They literally put leashes on their children and tied them to poles, with a bowl full of food and water for 8 to 10 hours a day.
> 
> Look at that picture for a minute.  This is so we can have our cheap little gadgets, gizmos and trinkets.  Those Chinese people volunteer to work in those conditions--uh huh.  Where's the humanity?  (This is not directed towards you, pe se--this is to everyone as a whole).
> 
> Most people in this country wouldn't treat their dogs like that.  But sooner or later, those conditions will be here, if we do not wake people up to these deplorable conditions (out of sight - out of mind), then it affects all of us globally.

----------


## Weston White

> Nobody owes these people anything.  If they are low-skilled workers, they deserve low wages.  That's the only fair way to do it.  There's nothing at all pragmatic about low-skill, high wage jobs.


Do you really, honestly, truly feel that minimum wage is a "high wage"?

However, that is not what we are talking about here.  We are talking about willful exploitation of a lesser developed nation, including its people.  If anything we should not be meddling so much in their internal affairs, at least until they have properly advanced (e.g., I like the analogy of Star Trek's "Prime Directive").

If you are American you are purvey to a higher standard as a part of your birthright.

On a related note would you, so much as you are at present, justify America going to war and killing the people of a nation such as North Korea, a nation that is still living in the pre-1970' and possesses zero threat to America and little to no threat to its surrounding nations?

----------


## Weston White

> You didn't answer the question.  Who gets to define those terms, since clearly we don't define them in the same manner.


They are already defined, we are not exactly inventing new principles or terminology here.

----------


## angelatc

> Do you really, honestly, truly feel that minimum wage is a "high wage"?


I believe that states with higher minimum wages have higher unemployment rates, that the minimum wage is an entry barrier for small business, and therefore minimum wages laws create malinvestment.

I think that the concept that we Americans have no business meddling in the affairs of other nations, and that trade is the best equalizer.  Unfortunately for you, it doesn't seem to be equalizing things fast enough to suit you.

----------


## angelatc

> They are already defined, we are not exactly inventing new principles or terminology here.


There is no "we" here.  It's quite clear that you and I define "ethics" and "exploitation" much differently.   I'm very much against legislation that promotes "ethics" and "Morality," while I suspect that you're only selectively against it.

 They are subjective, and therefore ineffective on convincing me that I should agree to put Chinese people out of work by demanding higher prices for "ethical" reasons.

Especially when people here in America are still crying about not being able to afford daycare.

----------


## angelatc

> On a related note would you, so much as you are at present, justify America going to war and killing the people of a nation such as North Korea, a nation that is still living in the pre-1970' and possesses zero threat to America and little to no threat to its surrounding nations?


"SQUIRREL!"

----------


## Origanalist

> Wal-Mart is controversial.  Americans (as well as brits and most others) love controversy and sensationalism.  Just reading this thread you get an idea of how emotional the arguments on both sides can be.  I'm a little young, but it _seems_ that* emotion, bickering, and drama are a lot more popular than back in the 80s and 90s*.






Sorry, couldn't resist

----------


## Weston White

> This is nonsense.
> 
> The answer to markets leveling and growing is NO GOVERNMENT. Amendments are BS- nullification of all unconstitutional laws is the only answer.
> 
> True capitalism can only exist under freedom- you deliver a product I want, I buy it. You deliver something I do not want- I don't buy it. And you rethink your product and business to come up with something better.
> 
> If people do not want Walmart's products, then stay away- if they do, they are free to shop. If they don't get enough money, work somewhere else, because we ALL know how stable the economy is at the moment.


So, you do not think that in order for those businesses (e.g., Walmart) to accomplish what you are suggesting (as part of their "rethinking"), they might be willing conspire with those in government to capitulate its own citizens into becoming wholly reliant on their business model and subsequently more-so upon that very government, ever encroaching as time advances?

And how can one dare to possess freedom when they cannot provide subsistence to their families because all of the jobs are being moved offshore?

And how can one shop elsewhere when places like Walmart are overtaking the consumer's options throughout their locale?

----------


## Weston White

> I heard someone on the radio today who mentioned he suspected that the TV talking heads might have influenced that behavior somewhat.  I thought he might be on to something.
> 
> Having said that, I view the idea that somehow America needs to be responsible for creating "ethical" working conditions across a global economy to be elitist and frightening.   WalMart is only 1 of a million different companies that buy things from China.    
> 
> Liberals want somebody else to do something about everything - it's their hallmark.


No, no, no, you have blown that post all up in your face.  I hope you enjoyed the taste and feel of the virtual fonts.  

Nobody is saying anything to that encompassing effect.  America is not the police of the world.

----------


## Weston White

> There is no "we" here.  It's quite clear that you and I define "ethics" and "exploitation" much differently.   I'm very much against legislation that promotes "ethics" and "Morality," while I suspect that you're only selectively against it.
> 
>  They are subjective, and therefore ineffective on convincing me that I should agree to put Chinese people out of work by demanding higher prices for "ethical" reasons.
> 
> Especially when people here in America are still crying about not being able to afford daycare.


No, it is not at "we" define them differently it is just that you simply do not care.  You have already made that more than clear.

----------


## Weston White

> "SQUIRREL!"


What is this? Code for: "OMG!!! So, like totally, yes!  I love any and all wars, because wars are so very great for the free-market capitalist."

----------


## angelatc

> No, no, no, you have blown that post all up in your face.  I hope you enjoyed the taste and feel of the virtual fonts.  
> 
> Nobody is saying anything to that encompassing effect.  America is not the police of the world.


I have no idea what that first sentence even means. 

As for the second, let me see if I understand your position.  It's either America's or Walmart's fault that the Chinese people are being employed "exploited"  by  their employers, and that "we" need to change the working conditions in their country by changing our country, except we don't want to control them really, just force them to act like us.

I get so lost in philosophical arguments that I try to avoid them.  Economics makes perfect sense to me, the endless contradictions of humans...not so much.

----------


## angelatc

> What is this? Code for: "OMG!!! So, like totally, yes!  I love any and all wars, because wars are so very great for the free-market capitalist."


No, it's code for blurting out some random, unrelated nonsense that has no bearing on the current conversation .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBWrMQVsuak

----------


## angelatc

> No, it is not at "we" define them differently it is just that you simply do not care.  You have already made that more than clear.


So, the next step for you is.....?

ANd we do define them differently.  You're comfortable with using the force of government to try to solve our problems.  I think that's inefficient, and that the market will correct itself without the interference of well-intentioned wanna be do-gooders.

I think the ethical thing to do is to give them the economic tools to improve themselves, and I think that trade is the ethical way to give them those tools.

You seem to want them to feed from a trough - be it either the corporate trough or the welfare trough.

----------


## torchbearer

i'm sure this has been said before, but walmart exist because people shop there.

----------


## donnay

> So, the next step for you is.....?
> 
> ANd we do define them differently.  You're comfortable with using the force of government to try to solve our problems.  I think that's inefficient, and that the market will correct itself without the interference of well-intentioned wanna be do-gooders.


Who is asking to use force of government to solve our problems?  In a truly free market the people would simply boycott these practices, if they thought it was wrong--voting with our pocketbooks, not by force.  Who is making the case that government needs to be involved?  Government should be out of the economic business--period!

Is government not helping the Oil companies with wars in places were oil is dirt cheap?  Of course they use the narrative they are going after terrorists to make us all safer.  And as I recall, Saddam was not an imminent threat to us, nor was he involved in 9/11.  So why are we there?  Is it because Saddam threatened to move away from the dollar, just like Iran is doing?  If you look at the size and scope of what our government is doing across the globe, much of it is for control, not to make us safe.  

Our country needs to lead by example.  Our government was hijacked and is causing tyranny all around the global.   The hijacked government is either coercing countries to do what they want, or they will bomb them into the atmosphere.  This is all by design, and will come back on us in the end.  The people running the show hate us, for our freedom!  George Bush was damn right about that one, just not in the truth as to whom the terrorists really are!

----------


## Ender

> So, you do not think that in order for those businesses (e.g., Walmart) to accomplish what you are suggesting (as part of their "rethinking"), they might be willing conspire with those in government to capitulate its own citizens into becoming wholly reliant on their business model and subsequently more-so upon that very government, ever encroaching as time advances?
> 
> And how can one dare to possess freedom when they cannot provide subsistence to their families because all of the jobs are being moved offshore?
> 
> And how can one shop elsewhere when places like Walmart are overtaking the consumer's options throughout their locale?


Dude- take some time off and learn what REAL capitalism is.

The reason so many jobs are moved off shore is because of ridiculous %$&%^#$&%^$*&^ gov regulations that drive businesses out of the country. Look at the Gibson Guitar diabolical caused by the stupid government a few months ago. Businesses are NOT allowed to make a profit in the good ol' US of A. They are regulated out of business. Fuel-efficient cars that get 60+ to the gallon are not allowed in the US.

Every chain in the US operates exactly as Walmart does- some much worse. The ONLY reason you hear about Walmart is because it will not UNIONIZE. 

Get the government out of business and then business can come home and real capitalism can flourish as well as everyone's pocketbook.

----------


## angelatc

> Who is asking to use force of government to solve our problems?  In a truly free market the people would simply boycott these practices, if they thought it was wrong--voting with our pocketbooks, not by force.  Who is making the case that government needs to be involved?  Government should be out of the economic business--period!
> 
> Is government not helping the Oil companies with wars in places were oil is dirt cheap?  Of course they use the narrative they are going after terrorists to make us all safer.  And as I recall, Saddam was not an imminent threat to us, nor was he involved in 9/11.  So why are we there?  Is it because Saddam threatened to move away from the dollar, just like Iran is doing?  If you look at the size and scope of what our government is doing across the globe, much of it is for control, not to make us safe.  
> 
> Our country needs to lead by example.  Our government was hijacked and is causing tyranny all around the global.   The hijacked government is either coercing countries to do what they want, or they will bomb them into the atmosphere.  This is all by design, and will come back on us in the end.  The people running the show hate us, for our freedom!  George Bush was damn right about that one, just not in the truth as to whom the terrorists really are!


If they hate us because we're giving them our jobs, then I really can't sympathize much.

In the meantime, there are lots of people that boycott Walmart.  Makes me happy, because it's one less person in line in front of me.

----------


## VoluntaryAmerican

> And did you even bother to read those articles?  Such conditions certainly seem to meet your above definition fairly well.  What more, after all, can one expect from a communist nation?
> 
> Like, totally hello, reality is calling you, the workers are killing themselves while at work, the buildings are now encompassed with "suicide-netting", the employees are _required_ to work over 60-hours a week in 10-hour shifts, they are _required_ to stay there paying for both a shared room and eating for a company cafeteria.
> 
> Actually, perhaps you do have a point... I think prisoners might actually have it better than the workers.  
> 
> Please, quit being so blatantly dense.  You make yourself appear only silly.


The employees are not _required_ to do anything, because they are employees *NOT* slaves.

I highlighted the important words to make it easy for you.

----------


## specsaregood

> Why is this most popular thread on RPF?... and what it has to do with RP?
> (I am from croatai and dont get it.)


Apart from the US govt, Walmart is the #1 employer in the United states.  Walmart is relevent in pretty much every corner of the US.

----------


## donnay

> Apart from the US govt, Walmart is the #1 employer in the United states.  Walmart is relevent in pretty much every corner of the US.



Kind of like Taco Bell being the only place to eat, in the movie Demolition man.  Soon Wal-Marx will be the only store to shop. You'll have no choice, and the low prices will cease to exist.

----------


## Weston White

> The employees are not _required_ to do anything, because they are employees *NOT* slaves.
> 
> I highlighted the important words to make it easy for you.


Actually, I think you had meant to state that you underlined (or _emphasized)_ them.

It is called *serfdom* (employees in such environments are merely vassals and chattel) -there I have as well underlined and bolded that so as to make it easier for you to understand.  If the employees hold a want to earn a proper livelihood, yes they do have “to do”.  Further, keeping in mind that the past methodologies of slavery have been revamped along with the industrialization into a system of moderately educated, self-managing slaves. 

Also, noting that I am not certain how the process of employment in communist nations such as China actually function, e.g., perhaps if you refuse to work they just accuse you of being a felon and kidnap you in one of their fancy mobile organ harvester vans and just disappear you, or perhaps they just lock you up and throw away the key, penalize you for being a “nonproductive”, something to that effect.  I personally do not know.

Regardless, this does not excuse the misgivings of their employer or those that their employer contracts with, they are owed an ethical consideration in whatever case.

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## Weston White

> No, it's code for blurting out some random, unrelated nonsense that has no bearing on the current conversation .


Oh yes, what a coy way to avoid adult conversations.  I think I am getting where you are coming from now.

----------


## Weston White

> Dude- take some time off and learn what REAL capitalism is.
> 
> The reason so many jobs are moved off shore is because of ridiculous %$&%^#$&%^$*&^ gov regulations that drive businesses out of the country. Look at the Gibson Guitar diabolical caused by the stupid government a few months ago. Businesses are NOT allowed to make a profit in the good ol' US of A. They are regulated out of business. Fuel-efficient cars that get 60+ to the gallon are not allowed in the US.
> 
> Every chain in the US operates exactly as Walmart does- some much worse. The ONLY reason you hear about Walmart is because it will not UNIONIZE. 
> 
> Get the government out of business and then business can come home and real capitalism can flourish as well as everyone's pocketbook.


Dude?

You actually think that Walmart is representative of as you say “real” capitalism?

The elements involved are not so simplistic as a businesses bottom-line and shareholder nirvana.

60+ MPG vehicles have little to do with shipping American jobs overseas.

The unfortunate situation with Gibson has more to do with UN treaties than with American’s own internal government oversight or regulations.

Without governmental regulation and oversight we end up with nepotistic powerhouses, oligarchical families such as the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Warburgs, Morgans, Lees, Gates, Soros, et al.

No the reason that jobs are being shipped overseas is because corporations are taking advantage of the situation of lesser developed nations and their people, combined also with the encroaching agenda of internationalism, which is also why our borders are being left wide open and there is such a push for non-enforcement on matters of immigration.

To say that corporations are not making profits within the USA is wholly ridiculous; clearly, our GDP (and their shareholders take) states otherwise.  Corporations are making profits regardless, perhaps not so much as they otherwise would be, but that is entirely another matter.

Personally, I could care less if employees unionize with Walmart that is their private issue not mine.  Honestly, I don't see why non-skilled employees would need unionization anyways -it is not as if they have much to bring to the negotiating table.

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## Weston White

> If they hate us because we're giving them our jobs, then I really can't sympathize much.
> 
> In the meantime, there are lots of people that boycott Walmart.  Makes me happy, because it's one less person in line in front of me.


So, then you would honestly continue working as an accountant if your manager came in one day and told you that from this day forth we are only going to be paying you 1/6 of your present level of pay and that your weekly hours are going to be increased from 40 to 60 or more and that if you ever dare refuse your "services" will be thereafter terminated?

You would be willing to bite that bullet for the evolution of the so-called “free-markets”?

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## Origanalist

> <<<Thumbs up>>>
> 
> New computer cars?
> 
> Throw it in the woods!
> 
> *‘Lil Stinker Won… But Government is Winning*
> 
> http://ericpetersautos.com/2012/06/2...nt-is-winning/


Speaking about the link, I got a 91 gold wing for a prayer, I did some fixin on it and it's ready to roll after changing out the fluids. But I *hate* the way it looks. I'm going to ride it for awhile but I probably will put it up for sale and buy something that doesn't hurt my eyes.

PS, 300 sixes are great.

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## Ender

> Dude?
> 
> You actually think that Walmart is representative of as you say real capitalism?
> 
> The elements involved are not so simplistic as a businesses bottom-line and shareholder nirvana.
> 
> 60+ MPG vehicles have little to do with shipping American jobs overseas.
> 
> The unfortunate situation with Gibson has more to do with UN treaties than with Americans own internal government oversight or regulations.
> ...


No business in the US operates on real capitalism- it is impossible with the government in the way.

This is what I am saying- Walmart operates like every other BB in the US because of gov regulation. And many other BB are worse. You are arguing up the wrong tree; Walmart is not the problem- the gov is the problem.

As for working long hours for what seems like little pay, would you rather that these people starved? The American high cost of living and the 9-5 BS is not the "Dream" in the East. The incomes of factory workers are very low compared to the workers in United States and Europe. China & India are NOT the US and the living standards are much like the Industrial Age. Most workers for any job get cents instead of dollars an hour and they work 6 or 7 days a week.

These are the facts. Boycotting Walmart won't change any of that- becoming acquainted with real capitalism, real money, and liberty and doing something about THESE issues, will do more for people everywhere than meowing on a forum.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Speaking about the link, I got a 91 gold wing for a prayer, I did some fixin on it and it's ready to roll after changing out the fluids. But I *hate* the way it looks. I'm going to ride it for awhile but I probably will put it up for sale and buy something that doesn't hurt my eyes.
> 
> PS, 300 sixes are great.


Ha!  I like GoldWings, but that's probably way too much of a cruiser for a SHTF bike.

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## heavenlyboy34

> *No business in the US operates on real capitalism- it is impossible with the government in the way.*
> 
> This is what I am saying- Walmart operates like every other BB in the US because of gov regulation. And many other BB are worse. You are arguing up the wrong tree; Walmart is not the problem- the gov is the problem.
> 
> As for working long hours for what seems like little pay, would you rather that these people starved? The American high cost of living and the 9-5 BS is not the "Dream" in the East. The incomes of factory workers are very low compared to the workers in United States and Europe. China & India are NOT the US and the living standards are much like the Industrial Age. Most workers for any job get cents instead of dollars an hour and they work 6 or 7 days a week.
> 
> These are the facts. Boycotting Walmart won't change any of that- becoming acquainted with real capitalism, real money, and liberty and doing something about THESE issues, will do more for people everywhere than meowing on a forum.


In most ways, that's true.  However, some business exchanges can still be done privately, paid in cash.  Medical care, for example.  If you pay your dentist cash, you can usually get better prices.  At this point, the "black" market is more or less what the free market would be like in a laissez-faire society.

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## Weston White

> No business in the US operates on real capitalism- it is impossible with the government in the way.
> 
> This is what I am saying- Walmart operates like every other BB in the US because of gov regulation. And many other BB are worse. You are arguing up the wrong tree; Walmart is not the problem- the gov is the problem.
> 
> As for working long hours for what seems like little pay, would you rather that these people starved? The American high cost of living and the 9-5 BS is not the "Dream" in the East. The incomes of factory workers are very low compared to the workers in United States and Europe. China & India are NOT the US and the living standards are much like the Industrial Age. Most workers for any job get cents instead of dollars an hour and they work 6 or 7 days a week.
> 
> These are the facts. Boycotting Walmart won't change any of that- becoming acquainted with real capitalism, real money, and liberty and doing something about THESE issues, will do more for people everywhere than meowing on a forum.


There are extremes on both end of the economical spectrum.  Without government oversight though regulation, capitalism will become only rabid.

Legitimate capitalism can take place so long as neither governments nor entrepreneurs justify the toxic mentality of their means justifying their ends, theorizing for the greater good.

No, Walmart is an economical experiment in furthering industrial globalism; they have enveloped the present problem which is coupled to the government.  Moreover, Walmart has become a national pandemic, having taken the originating idea of the Super-Kmart to an entirely non-maintainable level.  Walmarts are not just operating in each individual city; they are operating in each individual demographic within each individual city.

What, do you think those factory workers were cloned one day in anticipation of American companies to move their manufacturing into their nation?  Do you think those employees just sprang-up out of the mud one day and started looking for employment?

Pointedly, your argument is a fallacy.  You are arguing for their people not to be left to starve (as if this were even a preexisting condition), while they just happen to be working the very same jobs that were transferred to their foreign lands from our nation, which consequently results in our own people here at home being left to starve (or as an alternative to be forced into capitulating to the government).

Boycotting businesses such as Walmart and Apple does tons.  If you feel otherwise you are a defeatists tool of propaganda.  An individuals well kept moral compass does not permit them to associate with those they despise, nor does it lead them to bask in rivers of hypocrisy.

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## PierzStyx

> Kind of like Taco Bell being the only place to eat, in the movie Demolition man.  Soon Wal-Marx will be the only store to shop. You'll have no choice, and the low prices will cease to exist.


Not at all. This idea has already been refuted in this thread, in detail. But to sum it up, the idea that Wal-Mart will ever be the _only_ place to buy anything is preposterous. There are plenty of department stores that are prosperous and in no danger of failing. And even if it were, by some miracle, Wal-Mart still couldn't raises it's prices because the people would refuse to shop. The market would take care of it.

----------


## Feeding the Abscess

> There are extremes on both end of the economical spectrum.  Without government oversight though regulation, capitalism will become only rabid.
> 
> Legitimate capitalism can take place so long as neither governments nor entrepreneurs justify the toxic mentality of their means justifying their ends, theorizing for the greater “good”.
> 
> No, Walmart is an economical experiment in furthering industrial globalism; they have enveloped the present problem which is coupled to the government.  Moreover, Walmart has become a national pandemic, having taken the originating idea of the “Super-Kmart” to an entirely non-maintainable level.  Walmarts are not just operating in each individual city; they are operating in each individual demographic within each individual city.
> 
> What, do you think those factory workers were cloned one day in anticipation of American companies to move their manufacturing into their nation?  Do you think those employees just sprang-up out of the mud one day and started looking for employment?
> 
> Pointedly, your argument is a fallacy.  You are arguing for their people not to be left to starve (as if this were even a preexisting condition), while they just happen to be working the very same jobs that were transferred to their foreign lands from our nation, which consequently results in our own people here at home being left to starve (or as an alternative to be forced into capitulating to the government).
> ...


Globalism, the international division of labor, is quite possibly the most beautiful thing ever created by mankind. The problem isn't that it exists; the problem is that all manner of governments are getting in its way.

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## PierzStyx

> No business in the US operates on real capitalism- it is impossible with the government in the way.
> 
> This is what I am saying- Walmart operates like every other BB in the US because of gov regulation. And many other BB are worse. You are arguing up the wrong tree; Walmart is not the problem- the gov is the problem.
> 
> As for working long hours for what seems like little pay, would you rather that these people starved? The American high cost of living and the 9-5 BS is not the "Dream" in the East. The incomes of factory workers are very low compared to the workers in United States and Europe. China & India are NOT the US and the living standards are much like the Industrial Age. Most workers for any job get cents instead of dollars an hour and they work 6 or 7 days a week.
> 
> These are the facts. Boycotting Walmart won't change any of that- becoming acquainted with real capitalism, real money, and liberty and doing something about THESE issues, will do more for people everywhere than meowing on a forum.



Why are you arguing with this guy? Its obvious he is all ideologue and no intelligence. You could lay out fact after fact after fact, but his dialectic not only gives him a convenient way to dismiss those facts, it justifies his ignorance. I mean notice how his answer is "justifiable" government regulation, as if government regulation leading to corporatism wasn't already the root problem. Its just no use. You'd have better luck turning stones into the children of Abraham.

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## Weston White

> Not at all. This idea has already been refuted in this thread, in detail. But to sum it up, the idea that Wal-Mart will ever be the _only_ place to buy anything is preposterous. There are plenty of department stores that are prosperous and in no danger of failing. And even if it were, by some miracle, Wal-Mart still couldn't raises it's prices because the people would refuse to shop. The market would take care of it.


Now that is certainly a laugh.  What market would that be?  In case you have not noticed, shopping centers and malls are shutting their doors all across our once fine nation.  It is just a matter of time, so long as we continue in this direction.  For there will not be the possibility of future markets because they will not be capable of standing-up against the last remaining Goliath.

Walmart is the proverbial “wolf in sheep’s clothing”.

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## PierzStyx

> If they hate us because we're giving them our jobs, then I really can't sympathize much.
> 
> In the meantime, there are lots of people that boycott Walmart.  Makes me happy, because it's one less person in line in front of me.


"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to angelatc again."

Amen. I just bought a nice genuine leather belt (not my best ever but I give it an A-), two new pairs of nice Bermuda khaki shorts, and Dr. Scholls orthopedic inserts (that alone could cost $300) all for $78.36 from Wal-Mart. THAT is why people shop there. And that is the value of capitalism.

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## PierzStyx

> Now that is certainly a laugh.  What market would that be?  In case you have not noticed, shopping centers and malls are shutting their doors all across our once fine nation.  It is just a matter of time, so long as we continue in this direction.  For there will not be the possibility of future markets because they will not be capable of standing-up against the last remaining Goliath.
> 
> Walmart is the proverbial “wolf in sheep’s clothing”.



Actually no, I haven't noticed that. Mostly because it isn't happening. Not because of Wal-Mart anyway. The economic downturn, you know the housing bubble bust that wrecked the economy, lead to a lot of closed stores as the collapse reverberated across the entire economy. That Wal-Mart didn't fall apart shows the strength of its model and just how good it is at providing exactly what its customers want at a cheap price. You'll notice fast food joints and other such places that offer their products at a cheaper price also prospered too. That you somehow want to blame this on Wal-Mart is idiotic and betrays your actual ignorance on economics. Those places are shutting down because of bad monetary policy by the Fed, not Wal-Mart. 

And even if it had been Wal-Mart why should I feel bad about that? Wal-Mart excelled in the market giving their consumers exactly what they want for prices lower than anywhere else. Why should bad businesses that can't compete be propped up at the expense of the consumer?

But more to the point, you're simply wrong. Malls all over the place thrive. And none of them have Wal-Marts in them. They are usually built around two or three major stores, usually a Sears, JC Penny, or Macys, with the odd Old Navy thrown in, and a collection of other stores that are only able to exist and thrive as they pick up customers coming and going form the major stores. And none of them have Wal-Marts. This idea that Wal-Mart is simply shutting down all competition everywhere is incredibly false. 

And the "market" I meant in my post you quoted is THE market, us. Wal-Mart wouldn't be able to raise its prices simply because no one would shop there. And the minute they did raise their prices an opening for new cheaper businesses would open up because no one would shop there. But this whole line of reasoning is pointless to argue because its preposterous. There is healthy competition to Wal-Mart from Sears, Target, Amazon, JC Penny, Safeway, Costco, Khols, and Macys just to name a few.

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## Weston White

> Globalism, the international division of labor, is quite possibly the most beautiful thing ever created by mankind. The problem isn't that it exists; the problem is that all manner of governments are getting in its way.


I would have guessed patriotism, with diversity and individualism coming in at close seconds.  Globalism will ultimately result in the destruction of a nation-state in due course though piecemeal.


Noticing, that if all American businesses could each simply just move the whole of their manufacturing and whatever else (customer service, IT, marketing, payroll, accounting, etc.) overseas at a cost of only about 2% of their total profit leaving the remaining 98% for themselves (before taxation, but after funneling their profits through protective foreign tax havens), while only maintaining warehousing, shipping, and retail here at home, then what is the point of any of this?  I will tell you right now, there is none, none at all.

----------


## Weston White

> Why are you arguing with this guy? Its obvious he is all ideologue and no intelligence. You could lay out fact after fact after fact, but his dialectic not only gives him a convenient way to dismiss those facts, it justifies his ignorance. I mean notice how his answer is "justifiable" government regulation, as if government regulation leading to corporatism wasn't already the root problem. Its just no use. You'd have better luck turning stones into the children of Abraham.


I am sorry to inform you but the Anti-Federalists lost your very arguments over two-hundred years ago.

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## Weston White

> "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to angelatc again."
> 
> Amen. I just bought a nice genuine leather belt (not my best ever but I give it an A-), two new pairs of nice Bermuda khaki shorts, and Dr. Scholls orthopedic inserts (that alone could cost $300) all for $78.36 from Wal-Mart. THAT is why people shop there. And that is the value of capitalism.


Oh my goodness you are so manly.

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## Weston White

> etc., etc., etc.


Ah, so there is your problem. Your brain has become packed so full of that fake fast-food crap that you pickup during your excursions at Walmart that you can no longer see straight.

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## PierzStyx

> Ah, so there is your problem. Your brain has become packed so full of that fake fast-food crap that you pickup during your excursions at Walmart that you can no longer see straight.


And this is why talking to you is useless. You simply can not contribute anything intellectually beyond your limited rhetoric.

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## PierzStyx

> Oh my goodness you are so manly.


Manliness is irrelevant. That I was able to maximize by gains for minimal output in cash is not.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Ah, so there is your problem. Your brain has become packed so full of that fake fast-food crap that you pickup during your excursions at Walmart that you can no longer see straight.


What he said made perfect sense to me, and I keep a very natural diet, with lots of sardines and avocados, which are widely known as brain food.  So I am somehow in doubt that his diet is dulling his senses.

ETA - typo fix, sorry, trying to speak Tagalog in another conversation

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## Weston White

> Manliness is irrelevant. That I was able to maximize by gains for minimal output in cash is not.


And yet all it cost you was the further demise of your integrity and virtue.

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## Weston White

> What he said made perfect sense to me, and I keep a very natural diet, with lots of sardines and avocados, which are widely known as brain food.  So I am somehow in doubt that his diet is dulling his senses.



Yes, because as we all already know, mercury just magically makes you intelligent, while GMO’ are simply G-R-E-A-T!

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## GunnyFreedom

> Yes, because as we all already know, mercury just magically makes you intelligent, while GMO’ are simply G-R-E-A-T!


LOL I am guessing that you are very confused.  First, my avocados are non-GMO (I do know how to read produce stickers), and second sardines are not at all polluted with mercury the way tuna and salmon are.  Nice try tossing a squirrel in my path though.

----------


## Feeding the Abscess

> I would have guessed patriotism, with diversity and individualism coming in at close seconds.  *Globalism will ultimately result in the destruction of a nation-state in due course though piecemeal*.


Good. Though I'm not sure why you're championing the state while also praising individualism. You can't have both.





> Noticing, that if all American businesses could each simply just move the whole of their manufacturing and whatever else (customer service, IT, marketing, payroll, accounting, etc.) overseas at a cost of only about 2% of their total profit leaving the remaining 98% for themselves (before taxation, but after funneling their profits through protective foreign tax havens), while only maintaining warehousing, shipping, and retail here at home, then what is the point of any of this?  I will tell you right now, there is none, none at all.


That's only sustainable when you're an empire, with the reserve currency of the world and a central bank to print up money.

----------


## PierzStyx

> And yet all it cost you was the further demise of your integrity and virtue.


Not at all. I reject the idea that Wal-Mart is somehow destroying people's lives overseas by giving them a job that is far superior than anything they could have without Wal-Mart, which is the key most forget. People choose to work at Wal-Mart overseas. They _choose_ to do so. Why? Because Wal-Mart pays more and is better than their alternatives, the only reasons anyone chooses employment anywhere. No one forces them. I reject the idea that Wal-Mart is somehow evil at home because it is driving other businesses out of business by providing equal or superior products for cheaper prices and providing more jobs for more people than any "mom and pop" establishment could. I refuse to penalize the customer to prop up inferior businesses. And Wal-Mart specifically provides more jobs for unskilled and/or uneducated laborers, a segment of workers that is increasingly finding itself marginalized by our high tech society's demands for super specialization and advanced education. I reject that adding jobs means putting people on welfare I reject the idea that capitalism is bad when it is in fact the most humane system in the world or that the market needs to be regulated to ensure "fairness". I reject that its refusal to allow unions is somehow bad when 99% of the unions in the USA are left wing political machines that use government to cripple the market and support socialists. 

That Wal-Mart is involved in government is an issue. But it is no more involved in government than all the other businesses in America. Also like most major businesses, it outsources tons of jobs overseas. If this is why you reject Wal-Mart, then you had better never step foot in another supermarket, fast food joint, or gas station *EVER* again. Otherwise you're a giant hypocrite. That I also choose to strike at the root at the problem, government market intervention and regulations that drives businesses to try to manipulate government, as opposed to hacking at limbs and pretending that by not shopping at Wal-Mart I am somehow doing something and am arrogantly superior to those who do shop there, does not cause me to lose honor or integrity. 

My honor, integrity, and dignity are wholly in place.

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## Weston White

> LOL I am guessing that you are very confused.  First, my avocados are non-GMO (I do know how to read produce stickers), and second sardines are not at all polluted with mercury the way tuna and salmon are.  Nice try tossing a squirrel in my path though.


So you selectively eat non-GMO then?  If so why do you bother since you believe the health risks are merely conjecture?


But yes all seafood is polluted to varying degrees, and if you consume a large quantity of smaller sea life it is nearly the same as eating a whole sized fish (e.g., salmon is one of the safest fishes to consume).




> The National Institute of Health (NIH) notes that "exposure [to mercury] results principally from consumption by pregnant women of seafood contaminated by mercury." And the EPA and FDA issued a joint statement in March 2004 acknowledging that "nearly all fish and shellfish contain traces of mercury."

----------


## PierzStyx

> What he said made perfect sense to me, and I keep a very natural diet, with lots of sardines and avocados, which are widely known as brain food.  So I am somehow in doubt that his diet is dulling his senses.
> 
> ETA - typo fix, sorry, trying to speak Tagalog in another conversation


Also, just for the record, I almost never eat fast food. That fast food prospers during the wrecked economy is illustrative of my point, not a comment on my diet. The whole fast food thing was brought up as a distraction from my point that he couldn't refute.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

The FDA samples mercury contamination in fish.  The salmon I eat is canned, it seems that all the kinds of fish I eat are very very low in mercury...and I didn't even plan it that way, it's just what i tend to eat.  Imagine that.

http://www.fda.gov/food/foodsafety/p.../ucm115644.htm

Canned Salmon, Sardines, Tilapia, when I eat fish, it's mostly those, and just look at all that mercury...  

Why, I believe that's equal to or less than natural environmental concentrations...

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> So you selectively eat non-GMO then?  If so why do you bother since you believe the health risks are merely conjecture?


LOL are you speaking to the right person?

http://www.ncleg.net/gascripts/BillL...11&BillID=H446




> But yes all seafood is polluted to varying degrees, and if you consume a large quantity of smaller sea life it is nearly the same as eating a whole sized fish (e.g., salmon is one of the safest fishes to consume).


Yeah, you really don't know what you are talking about.  The lower a species of fish is on the food chain, the lower it's ppm concentration of mercury.  NC DENR is frankly psychotic about mercury contamination, with requirements more than twice as strict as the EPA and FDA, so we get ridiculous data on this.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Also, just for the record, I almost never eat fast food. That fast food prospers during the wrecked economy is illustrative of my point, not a comment on my diet. The whole fast food thing was brought up as a distraction from my point that he couldn't refute.


I saw 2 posts above you thought I was him and he was me.  

I have said through this thread I am not a WalMart hater, I do believe that WalMart is sort of a cancer, but they are not the problem rather they are really just the symptom.  The problem is corporatism and special interest influence.  WalMart is basically just working the game that the US Government lays out.  I agree with the haters that WalMart is problematic, but I say to fix the problem you don't go after WalMart, you go after the corruption in government and end the corporatism.

WalMart is just the stuffy head, sneezing, runny nose, achy joints...American Corporatism is the influenza virus.  WalMart isn't the problem, they are just the _symptom_ of the problem.  That's been my take from page 1.

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## LibertyEagle

> The FDA samples mercury contamination in fish.  The salmon I eat is canned, it seems that all the kinds of fish I eat are very very low in mercury...and I didn't even plan it that way, it's just what i tend to eat.  Imagine that.
> 
> http://www.fda.gov/food/foodsafety/p.../ucm115644.htm
> 
> Canned Salmon, Sardines, Tilapia, when I eat fish, it's mostly those, and just look at all that mercury...  
> 
> Why, I believe that's equal to or less than natural environmental concentrations...


Wow, that's interesting.  I wonder why canned salmon is so much less than fresh salmon.   Too bad I like albacore tuna, because that is still bad.  I haven't had any in years now.

----------


## PierzStyx

> I saw 2 posts above you thought I was him and he was me.  
> 
> I have said through this thread I am not a WalMart hater, I do believe that WalMart is sort of a cancer, but they are not the problem rather they are really just the symptom.  The problem is corporatism and special interest influence.  WalMart is basically just working the game that the US Government lays out.  I agree with the haters that WalMart is problematic, but I say to fix the problem you don't go after WalMart, you go after the corruption in government and end the corporatism.
> 
> WalMart is just the stuffy head, sneezing, runny nose, achy joints...American Corporatism is the influenza virus.  Wal-Mart isn't the problem, they are just the _symptom_ of the problem.  That's been my take from page 1.


Yeah, I got tired and angry. Its 3:30 am here and its already been a long day. (So what do I do, go to bed? noooo...Gotta get my political fix :P) And I was easy to get at because of being tired. So I kinda snapped, but at the wrong person. I quickly fixed that though when I realized the mistake I had made. I apologize though for getting you confused with him. 

I agree with you about that being the issue with Wal-Mart, and the solution. You're a good man Gunny. Only ever given money to you and Ron Paul because you're the two guys I've ever thought were worth my greenbacks.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Wow, that's interesting.  I wonder why canned salmon is so much less than fresh salmon.   Too bad I like albacore tuna, because that is still bad.


Probably has a lot to do with where the salmon are caught, and also often times you can use younger smaller salmon for canning, whereas fresh salmon you need a bigger older fish to make for a real hefty salmon steak.  The younger a fish, the less contamination it will have.  So it kinda makes sense that canned salmon would have less mercury since the bigger ones get sold as fresh and the smaller ones get canned.

As to albacore tuna, I wish I had better news.  I'm not a big fan of chunk light tuna, which is a lot better, but I do have a bunch of cans of chunk light in my emergency food reserves because I knew it was the one with the least amount of mercury.

ETA - typo - it's quarter to 6 AM here and I haven't been to bed lol

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Yeah, I got tired and angry. Its 3:30 am here and its already been a long day. (So what do I do, go to bed? noooo...Gotta get my political fix :P) And I was easy to get at because of being tired. So I kinda snapped, but at the wrong person. I quickly fixed that though when I realized the mistake I had made. I apologize though for getting you confused with him. 
> 
> I agree with you about that being the issue with Wal-Mart, and the solution. You're a good man Gunny. Only ever given money to you and Ron Paul because you're the two guys I've ever thought were worth my greenbacks.


Happens to the best of us, no worries and forget about it, and there is no way in the world we agree on everything or we'd be the same person lol.  I'm sure something will eventually turn up that we disagree on, that's the nature of individualism.  I appreciate it. It probably helps that I hate elective office with a purple passion, I'm just doing it because I know America is dying and something durn well needs to be done about it.

----------


## Weston White

> Also, just for the record, I almost never eat fast food. That fast food prospers during the wrecked economy is illustrative of my point, not a comment on my diet. The whole fast food thing was brought up as a distraction from my point that he couldn't refute.


Not so, it was merely intended to mock the fallacy of your point, to which has previously been addressed.  There are only partial truths to your prior several paragraphs.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

Somehow I think everybody is staked out on this issue and nobody is going anywhere on it anymore.  Certainly not under pressure of indignation in any case.

----------


## PierzStyx

> Not so, it was merely intended to mock the fallacy of your point, to which has previously been addressed.  There are only partial truths to your prior several paragraphs.


So you say over and over again. Without ever saying anything to counter.

----------


## PierzStyx

> Happens to the best of us, no worries and forget about it, and there is no way in the world we agree on everything or we'd be the same person lol.  I'm sure something will eventually turn up that we disagree on, that's the nature of individualism.  I appreciate it. It probably helps that I hate elective office with a purple passion, I'm just doing it because I know America is dying and something durn well needs to be done about it.


I have no doubt it does help that you hate elective office. The few really great politicians all share that trait. Thank you for trying.

----------


## Weston White

> Good. Though I'm not sure why you're championing the state while also praising individualism. You can't have both.


Sure, you can champion both prospects; such is what America was founded upon after all, individual rights (life and liberty, while pursuing happiness), in following Christian theology.





> That's only sustainable when you're an empire, with the reserve currency of the world and a central bank to print up money.


So then, you advocate such to be the case for the free-markets, but then harken and state that can only be the case for empires?  Is this not an illogical notion to which you are supportive of?

However, such can work, given an appropriate scenario, such as having a compact of nations exchanging their manufacturing requirements with one another while simultaneously driving down the standards of employee wages and benefits through mass desperation for employment or through the hording of wealth among the very few leaving in their wake an utterly devastated poverty caste, for example (and we are rapidly approaching the brink of either scenario).

----------


## Weston White

> So you say over and over again. Without ever saying anything to counter.


And yet another lie on your behalf.

----------


## Weston White

> Not at all. I reject the idea that Wal-Mart is somehow destroying people's lives overseas by giving them a job that is far superior than anything they could have without Wal-Mart, which is the key most forget. People choose to work at Wal-Mart overseas. They _choose_ to do so. Why? Because Wal-Mart pays more and is better than their alternatives, the only reasons anyone chooses employment anywhere. No one forces them. I reject the idea that Wal-Mart is somehow evil at home because it is driving other businesses out of business by providing equal or superior products for cheaper prices and providing more jobs for more people than any "mom and pop" establishment could. I refuse to penalize the customer to prop up inferior businesses. And Wal-Mart specifically provides more jobs for unskilled and/or uneducated laborers, a segment of workers that is increasingly finding itself marginalized by our high tech society's demands for super specialization and advanced education. I reject that adding jobs means putting people on welfare I reject the idea that capitalism is bad when it is in fact the most humane system in the world or that the market needs to be regulated to ensure "fairness". I reject that its refusal to allow unions is somehow bad when 99% of the unions in the USA are left wing political machines that use government to cripple the market and support socialists. 
> 
> That Wal-Mart is involved in government is an issue. But it is no more involved in government than all the other businesses in America. Also like most major businesses, it outsources tons of jobs overseas. If this is why you reject Wal-Mart, then you had better never step foot in another supermarket, fast food joint, or gas station *EVER* again. Otherwise you're a giant hypocrite. That I also choose to strike at the root at the problem, government market intervention and regulations that drives businesses to try to manipulate government, as opposed to hacking at limbs and pretending that by not shopping at Wal-Mart I am somehow doing something and am arrogantly superior to those who do shop there, does not cause me to lose honor or integrity. 
> 
> My honor, integrity, and dignity are wholly in place.


You know, I bet folks such as Rockefeller, Kissinger, Cheney, Rove, Soros, Soetoro; Clinton, Bush, and Gates families; etc., all say that very same thing whenever they stare at themselves in the mirror.

Also, you keep referring to these completely fictitious numbers and the like, 99% (when the political issues concerning unions, ironically enough does not even apply to about 99% of them), 10-times the employment (when the fact is that Walmart has a high turnover rate, just as do most retail chains, and mostly hires only on a part-time basis; ergo, the supposed increased employment numbers on the part of Walmart are completely skewed), 3 to 4 times cheaper (when the fact is that Walmarts legitimate products are only a few Dollars cheaper than its competitors, while is inferior products are not even worthy of the greatly cheapened price presented by the its silly smiley face), provides a much larger variety (when the fact is Walmart eliminates variety, it was the smaller individual stores that offered its customers true variety), superior products (when the fact is their products are vastly inferior and even potentially dangerous), etc.  So much of what you pull out of thin air is completely and blatantly untrue.

Oh, and you accidently left out that you reject reality, ethics, and American pride, craftsmanship, and ingenuity.

----------


## Weston White

> LOL are you speaking to the right person?


Well, so much for that superior brain power you spoke about earlier.





> Yeah, you really don't know what you are talking about.  The lower a species of fish is on the food chain, the lower it's ppm concentration of mercury.


This is simply another way to look at what I had stated earlier.  Apart from that, truly, I would love to debate mercury levels in seafood with you and whatnot, but I am not going to.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Well, so much for that superior brain power you spoke about earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is simply another way to look at what I had stated earlier.  Apart from that, truly, I would love to debate mercury levels in seafood with you and whatnot, but I am not going to.


keep digging!

----------


## Weston White

> keep digging!


Sure, sure. Whatever you say. Just as I had already stated:

SALMON 0.022 PPM
SARDINE 0.013 PPM

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Sure, sure. Whatever you say. Just as I had already stated:
> 
> SALMON 0.022 PPM
> SARDINE 0.013 PPM


You are aware that PPM is a measure of _concentration_, right?  As in "Parts Per Million."  So that chart would assume concentrations of the set ratio in _equal_ weights of fish.

In other words, there is just over _half_ the mercury in 10lbs of sardines as there is in 10lbs of salmon.  Your implication that so long as you ate the same portion of sardines the mercury concentration would be similar to any other fish is pure fantasy.  The FDA site is not talking 'volume per fish' as you appear to believe, but rather PPM concentrations, which ought to be clear given that you actually quoted the 'PPM' bit from the site itself.

What is also pure fantasy is your assignment to me of a position on GMO.  I have one, but it's surely not what you claim it is.  Nice putting words in my mouth and calling me stupid when I don't recognize them though.  

You apear to have stuck yourself into one of those feedback loops where you've got to by-god be right no matter what, and like most in such loops you appear tragically unaware of the blatantly apparent extent of your disorder.

But go on and keep calling me dumb, it _so_ helps your argument.

----------


## tod evans

> But go on and keep calling me dumb, it _so_ helps your argument.


Awww, come on Gunny don't ya' know big words and long paragraphs supported by internet facts prove a point?

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Awww, come on Gunny don't ya' know big words and long paragraphs supported by internet facts prove a point?


lol well I considered citing 'molecular volume' but I thought that may be a bit pretentious.

----------


## chudrockz

At this point in this far-too-long conversation, I'm seriously beginning to wonder if Weston isn't an incarnation of Fire11 that's survived far too long here....

----------


## libertariantexas

I rarely shop at Walmart, but only because I don't like going there (too crowded and messy) and don't believe I really save much going there.

But I have none of this irrational hatred of Walmart.

----------


## Weston White

> At this point in this far-too-long conversation, I'm seriously beginning to wonder if Weston isn't an incarnation of Fire11 that's survived far too long here....


And that is exactly why you're a total dink.  So congratulations on that, I suppose.

----------


## cubical

Walmart is great for this country. But when the Chinese start to want something for all their hard for over the last couple of decades, things will get very rough for walmart as well as US citizens.

----------


## chudrockz

> And that is exactly why you're a total dink.  So congratulations on that, I suppose.


Thanks, I feel the love.

In all seriousness, though. Five-hundred and fifty plus posts now in this thread, a significant minority of which are yours, and you've managed to turn just about everyone - including Gunny, one of the real good guys and at least nominally in AGREEMENT with you - into a posse who thinks (with some justification) that you are a lunatic.

So keep up the incoherent ranting. You should honestly do a commercial for Walmart. As long as I get a finder's fee.

----------


## angelatc

> And yet all it cost you was the further demise of your integrity and virtue.


His integrity and virtue? ROFTL.  This, along with the snark about overseas tax shelter, are just more clues that this is another liberal who was only attracted to Ron Paul's philosophy because of the antiwar position.    Americans are victims, but not of invasive, greedy government and an intentionally destructive monetary policy.  No, it's WalMart's fault.

----------


## angelatc

> Walmart is great for this country. But when the Chinese start to want something for all their hard for over the last couple of decades, things will get very rough for walmart as well as US citizens.


Name one thing made in China that only Walmart sells.  Sheesh.

----------


## angelatc

> Well, so much for that superior brain power you spoke about earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is simply another way to look at what I had stated earlier.  Apart from that, truly, I would love to debate mercury levels in seafood with you and whatnot, but I am not going to.


I mentioned earlier that my husband was a former executive at Whole Foods.  What I didn't mention was that he ran the one of their seafood divisions.  I will jump at the chance to debate mercury levels in seafood with you, and the effects (or lack thereof) on humanity, as long as he's sitting next to me.   I'd also side-bet anybody else in this forum that I could make you call me names again.

----------


## angelatc

> WalMart is just the stuffy head, sneezing, runny nose, achy joints...American Corporatism is the influenza virus.  WalMart isn't the problem, they are just the _symptom_ of the problem.  That's been my take from page 1.


Absolutely. But the fact that Walmart isn't union makes them the target of the left's propaganda campaigns.  As was pointed out earlier, if Walmart caved and let the unions in, the yammering about cheap prices would fold faster than the anti-war movement did when Obama won.

----------


## angelatc

> Wow, that's interesting.  I wonder why canned salmon is so much less than fresh salmon.   Too bad I like albacore tuna, because that is still bad.  I haven't had any in years now.


I'll answer that when the hubby wakes up.

----------


## Weston White

> You are aware that PPM is a measure of _concentration_, right?  As in "Parts Per Million."  So that chart would assume concentrations of the set ratio in _equal_ weights of fish.
> 
> In other words, there is just over _half_ the mercury in 10lbs of sardines as there is in 10lbs of salmon.  Your implication that so long as you ate the same portion of sardines the mercury concentration would be similar to any other fish is pure fantasy.  The FDA site is not talking 'volume per fish' as you appear to believe, but rather PPM concentrations, which ought to be clear given that you actually quoted the 'PPM' bit from the site itself.
> 
> What is also pure fantasy is your assignment to me of a position on GMO.  I have one, but it's surely not what you claim it is.  Nice putting words in my mouth and calling me stupid when I don't recognize them though.  
> 
> You apear to have stuck yourself into one of those feedback loops where you've got to by-god be right no matter what, and like most in such loops you appear tragically unaware of the blatantly apparent extent of your disorder.
> 
> But go on and keep calling me dumb, it _so_ helps your argument.


Yes, I know what PPM is you absolute genius (it is 0.0001%), and neither was the exact quantity or ratios at all the point; however, the fact that a relationally noticeable amount of mercury is present, was.

Also, no that was not my implication at all, what was however, was that it is cumulative; that is actually ludicrous to state that the PPM of mercury would be a precise weight to size ratio throughout all species of sea-life.  Moreover, the exact PPM in whatever creature being consumed would be largely dependent upon its own surroundings and lifespan (otherwise just one single life-form from the sea would need to be tested to determine an exact measure of mercury).

Now, if you recall you had prior stated:




> and second sardines are not at all polluted with mercury the way *tuna and salmon* are.  Nice try tossing a squirrel in my path though.


SALMON 0.022
SARDINE 0.013
TUNA 0.391 (CANNED LIGHT TUNA 0.128)

Now, as to the GMO question posed, it was a legitimate question and also one that you have refused to answer; clearly it is obvious as to why.

There is no further point in arguing this with you (especially now that you have pulled the right no matter what card).  So I hope you enjoy the taste of that squirrel along with your side of not at all polluted sardines and organic avocados.

----------


## Weston White

> Thanks, I feel the love.
> 
> In all seriousness, though. Five-hundred and fifty plus posts now in this thread, a significant minority of which are yours, and you've managed to turn just about everyone - including Gunny, one of the real good guys and at least nominally in AGREEMENT with you - into a posse who thinks (with some justification) that you are a lunatic.
> 
> So keep up the incoherent ranting. You should honestly do a commercial for Walmart. As long as I get a finder's fee.


And then you go on to reinforce what I had just stated about your nonsensical post.  Well, you can only get better from here on out, right?

----------


## chudrockz

Now, Weston, you have TRULY come unhinged. To say that someone ELSE in this thread is pulling the "right no matter what" card. That's the funniest thing I've read in five years.

----------


## Weston White

> His integrity and virtue? ROFTL.  This, along with the snark about overseas tax shelter, are just more clues that this is another liberal who was only attracted to Ron Paul's philosophy because of the antiwar position.    Americans are victims, but not of invasive, greedy government and an intentionally destructive monetary policy.  No, it's WalMart's fault.


You do not make much of a practice thinking before posting your thoughts do you?  Perhaps you should begin to.  Neither do you at all "get" me, so please stop attempting to, you are already so far off the shoulder that it is best for you to just stop now.  Also, apparently you do not read very well, for that was not a "snark" concerning tax havens, it was a hypothetical.

----------


## Weston White

> I mentioned earlier that my husband was a former executive at Whole Foods.  What I didn't mention was that he ran the Midwest seafood division.  I will jump at the chance to debate mercury levels in seafood with you, and the effects (or lack thereof) on humanity, as long as he's sitting next to me.   I'd also side-bet anybody else in this forum that I could make you call me names again.


So let's get this straight shall we?  Your "husband" was a Whole Foods executive, yet that he/you could not afford to shop there (even with his discount), and you are an account (supposedly also a good paying white-collar occupation to be in), and this somehow makes both you and/or your "husband" an expert in both marine biology and chemistry?  Because what, your "husband" was in upper management at a grocery outlet that specializes in the preparation and selling of seafood (while I have no doubt that he could wiz-kid all of the proper handling, display, cleanup, and waste procedures, storage temperatures and durations, product categories and classifications, bookkeeping and reporting requirements, and whatnot for said seafood)?

What next are you going to argue that because your brother-in-law owns his own cigarette shop he is suddenly an expert in the processing, blending, and manufacturing of tobacco products?  That because your niece stocked the tea section of the Whole Foods store that you "husband" had worked at, she is now miraculously an expert herbalist?  That just because you work in accounting you are somehow an expert on monetary systems and economic theory?

----------


## Weston White

> Absolutely. But the fact that Walmart isn't union makes them the target of the left's propaganda campaigns.  As was pointed out earlier, if Walmart caved and let the unions in, the yammering about cheap prices would fold faster than the anti-war movement did when Obama won.


No there is no truth to that at all.  Yet another argument based on nothing but pure emotional appeal.

----------


## Weston White

> I'll answer that when the hubby wakes up.


Really?  Isn't the answer already blindingly obvious (maieutics anybody)?

----------


## LibertyEagle

I would still like to hear what he has to say, Weston.

----------


## chudrockz

Weston feels it's appropriate to insult peoples' "husbands" for some reason. Must be a sign of superior "intellect" or something.

Honestly, Weston, what is it YOU do? Since you're such an "expert" on the "evils" of "Walmart," you must be its CEO, right?

----------


## Kluge

> LOL are you speaking to the right person?
> 
> http://www.ncleg.net/gascripts/BillL...11&BillID=H446
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, you really don't know what you are talking about.  The lower a species of fish is on the food chain, the lower it's ppm concentration of mercury.  NC DENR is frankly psychotic about mercury contamination, with requirements more than twice as strict as the EPA and FDA, so we get ridiculous data on this.


This is, in general, correct. Did research on heavy metals in lake creatures in college, and you're better off if you stick with species that are lower in the food chain, unless they're bottom feeders. Shellfish also tend to have higher concentrations of heavy metals, totally dependent on environment.

----------


## Kluge

> Absolutely. But the fact that Walmart isn't union makes them the target of the left's propaganda campaigns.  As was pointed out earlier, if Walmart caved and let the unions in, the yammering about cheap prices would fold faster than the anti-war movement did when Obama won.


I'm sure that's a large part of the left's hatred of Walmart, even if they don't know it. Unions are as bad, if not worse, than lobbyists.

Unions had a purpose 100 years ago, they are now a big part of the problem--and similar to corporatist companies, they are destructive to a true free market.

----------


## Weston White

> This is, in general, correct. Did research on heavy metals in lake creatures in college, and you're better off if you stick with species that are lower in the food chain, unless they're bottom feeders. Shellfish also tend to have higher concentrations of heavy metals, totally dependent on environment.


Well, not so much perhaps:

Shellfish examples:
CLAM 0.009
CRAB 0.065
CRAWFISH 0.033
LOBSTER 0.166
OYSTER 0.012
SCALLOP 0.003
SHRIMP  0.009
SQUID 0.023

Bottom-feeder examples:
CATFISH 0.025
CARP 0.110

High examples:
SHARK 0.979
SWORDFISH 0.995

----------


## Kluge

> Well, not so much perhaps:
> 
> Shellfish examples:
> CLAM 0.009
> CRAB 0.065
> CRAWFISH 0.033
> LOBSTER 0.166
> OYSTER 0.012
> SCALLOP 0.003
> ...


You are not taking environment into account, as I clearly stated. My research was done on zebra mussels in one great lake, which have high concentrations of heavy metals due to environment...can't elaborate more right now because of daughter trying to rip laptop out of my hands.

There's no reason for hostility though. And it still stands that logically, the higher a fish is on the food chain, the more potential for higher levels of heavy metals it has. Dependent on environment, of course.

----------


## chudrockz

Wow, Weston, what's the little red box in my settings now? Did you actually report a post of mine?

I must be getting really close to the mark to have you coming that unglued!

----------


## RonRules

> "sardines are not at all polluted with mercury the way tuna and salmon are"
> 
> TUNA 0.391 (CANNED LIGHT TUNA 0.128)


Ah, so that's why they call it "Light" tuna.

I wonder how much mercury is in dolphins?

----------


## tod evans

> Ah, so that's why they call it "Light" tuna.
> 
> I wonder how much mercury is in dolphins?

----------


## RonRules



----------


## Brian4Liberty

> Agreed, So why not cut the subsidies that prop up their business model?
> 
> Let's see how those "billions" move around without welfare/food-stamps/medicare and section 8 housing.
> 
> The tax payer has been propping up outsourcing for decades, we don't need, nor can we afford to pay government "workers" let alone government "dependents".
> 
> I'd be interested to see how this all worked out on a *level playing field*..


That is the crux of the matter. Walmart gets preferential treatment at all levels: local, State and Federal tax breaks, a variety of regulations catered to them, and the benefit of importing from countries where laws are completely different. It certainly would not be a level playing field for a domestic producer and seller attempting to operate without crony government partnership.




> How much of their money comes from food stamps?


Good question. Behind the scenes, has Walmart lobbied for food stamps in any way?




> My fear is attacking Walmart will produce restrictions by government on Walmart, resulting in the eventual bailout of Walmart.  Because of course it is to big to fail (sarcasm).


You jest, but it's very likely that government will bail out Walmart as too big too fail at some point (above and beyond the government advantages they already enjoy).




> If you shop at Walmart:
> 
> 1.  You are not supporting your local community nearly as much as you could otherwise be, e.g., you might as well do your shopping from Amazon or whatever other Website.


Amazon is the new Walmart, without the government cronyism established. Notice that government has been harassing Amazon and it's Network of sellers?




> I think I picked up an AC window unit this  week for the Grand Son  cheaper @ Home Depot than Wal mart


Shopping around is key. No single vendor will always have the lowest price. And for advanced shoppers, quality is also a concern.




> Planned Obsolesce.  
> 
> Definition of 'Planned Obsolescence'
> A manufacturing decision by a company to make consumer products in such a way that they become out-of-date or useless within a known time period. The main goal of this type of production is to ensure that consumers will have to buy the product multiple times, rather than only once. This naturally stimulates demand for an industry's products because consumers have to keep coming back again and again.
> 
> Products ranging from inexpensive light bulbs to high-priced goods such as cars and buildings are subject to planned obsolescence by manufacturers and producers.
> 
> Also known as "built-in obsolescence".


Remember when toasters and microwave ovens lasted over a decade?

----------


## Ender

> Not at all. I reject the idea that Wal-Mart is somehow destroying people's lives overseas by giving them a job that is far superior than anything they could have without Wal-Mart, which is the key most forget. People choose to work at Wal-Mart overseas. They _choose_ to do so. Why? Because Wal-Mart pays more and is better than their alternatives, the only reasons anyone chooses employment anywhere. No one forces them. I reject the idea that Wal-Mart is somehow evil at home because it is driving other businesses out of business by providing equal or superior products for cheaper prices and providing more jobs for more people than any "mom and pop" establishment could. I refuse to penalize the customer to prop up inferior businesses. And Wal-Mart specifically provides more jobs for unskilled and/or uneducated laborers, a segment of workers that is increasingly finding itself marginalized by our high tech society's demands for super specialization and advanced education. I reject that adding jobs means putting people on welfare I reject the idea that capitalism is bad when it is in fact the most humane system in the world or that the market needs to be regulated to ensure "fairness". I reject that its refusal to allow unions is somehow bad when 99% of the unions in the USA are left wing political machines that use government to cripple the market and support socialists. 
> 
> That Wal-Mart is involved in government is an issue. But it is no more involved in government than all the other businesses in America. Also like most major businesses, it outsources tons of jobs overseas. If this is why you reject Wal-Mart, then you had better never step foot in another supermarket, fast food joint, or gas station *EVER* again. Otherwise you're a giant hypocrite. That I also choose to strike at the root at the problem, government market intervention and regulations that drives businesses to try to manipulate government, as opposed to hacking at limbs and pretending that by not shopping at Wal-Mart I am somehow doing something and am arrogantly superior to those who do shop there, does not cause me to lose honor or integrity. 
> 
> My honor, integrity, and dignity are wholly in place.


Whoa- BRAVO!

That is exactly what I have been trying to say, but you said it so much better- thank you!

----------


## Ender

> There are extremes on both end of the economical spectrum.  Without government oversight though regulation, capitalism will become only rabid.
> 
> Legitimate capitalism can take place so long as neither governments nor entrepreneurs justify the toxic mentality of their means justifying their ends, theorizing for the greater good.
> 
> No, Walmart is an economical experiment in furthering industrial globalism; they have enveloped the present problem which is coupled to the government.  Moreover, Walmart has become a national pandemic, having taken the originating idea of the Super-Kmart to an entirely non-maintainable level.  Walmarts are not just operating in each individual city; they are operating in each individual demographic within each individual city.
> 
> What, do you think those factory workers were cloned one day in anticipation of American companies to move their manufacturing into their nation?  Do you think those employees just sprang-up out of the mud one day and started looking for employment?
> 
> Pointedly, your argument is a fallacy.  You are arguing for their people not to be left to starve (as if this were even a preexisting condition), while they just happen to be working the very same jobs that were transferred to their foreign lands from our nation, which consequently results in our own people here at home being left to starve (or as an alternative to be forced into capitulating to the government).
> ...


What? Do you live on the moon? The Chinese and Indian peasants are POOR- and have been POOR long before Walmart arrived- they now have a chance at a job- and since they live in countries that have a much lower cost of living than the US, they are able to eat. 

Is it perfect? Hell, no. Is America perfect? Hell, no. 

America's dollar, the FED and banking issues have done more to ruin people's lives in other countries than Walmart or any other BB has. Couple that with outrageous regulations that drive businesses out of the country and you see what we have today.

If you do not understand the Federal Reserve, fractional banking, global banks, and the corporate military industrial complex then you are clueless as to why the world is in the state it is in.

----------


## tod evans

> Good question. Behind the scenes, has Walmart lobbied for food stamps in any way?


I doubt they invested in lobbying for or against food stamps, however I'd bet a cyber nickle that the percentage a maw-n-paw store forks over to the CC company per transaction is much higher than WM.

I'd bet another cyber nickle that if you deducted food-stamp money collected from  gross taxes owed, WM is more than covering it's tax burden with food-stamp dollars.

----------


## Kluge

> Remember when toasters and microwave ovens lasted over a decade?


Hell, my parents still had their original appliances from when they got married when I went to college--over 20 years, and they all still worked. (Refrigerator, stove, dishwasher--microwave purchased later.)

And also consider furniture, which used to be passed down to the children.

----------


## angelatc

> I doubt they invested in lobbying for or against food stamps, however I'd bet a cyber nickle that the percentage a maw-n-paw store forks over to the CC company per transaction is much higher than WM..


That's at least partially because Walmart bought a credit card processing company so they could minimize their costs.

----------


## chudrockz

I just bought a 3 pack of Brita water bottles (including six filters) at Sam's Club! It was a completely unnecessary purchase but fueled fully by the vitriol (inexplicable) of some on this forum. So Sam's says thank you, they got $19 more from me today than they otherwise would have. Oh and it's about six bucks cheaper than a quick search found anywhere else priced.

This is what I got, for those interested. So far it seems really slick:  (not aquired at link, though, obviously)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brita-Bottle...6261%26ps%3D54

----------


## angelatc

> So let's get this straight shall we?  Your "husband" was a Whole Foods executive, yet that he/you could not afford to shop there (even with his discount), and you are an account (supposedly also a good paying white-collar occupation to be in), and this somehow makes both you and/or your "husband" an expert in both marine biology and chemistry??


 Not me. Just him. That's why I said I'd need him next to me. Until I can make him sit down though, let's start with this.  Show me the science that indicates eating seafood with high mercury levels actually harms humans.

----------


## donnay

> I just bought a 3 pack of Brita water bottles (including six filters) at Sam's Club! It was a completely unnecessary purchase but fueled fully by the vitriol (inexplicable) of some on this forum. So Sam's says thank you, they got $19 more from me today than they otherwise would have. Oh and it's about six bucks cheaper than a quick search found anywhere else priced.
> 
> This is what I got, for those interested. So far it seems really slick:  (not aquired at link, though, obviously)
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brita-Bottle...6261%26ps%3D54



Does Brita remove; Sodium Fluoride, Chlorine, cyst, parasite, heavy metals, radon222, arsenic, pesticides, herbicides--etc... from your water?  Quick answer, no.

Sometimes you get what you pay for--just sayin'.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GENUINE-NEW-...item3a75c8a7db

----------


## angelatc

> Now, Weston, you have TRULY come unhinged. To say that someone ELSE in this thread is pulling the "right no matter what" card. That's the funniest thing I've read in five years.


Wait until you see how this seafood discussion is going to go.  I've seen this dozens of times.  It never gets old.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

Just announced, a new program to provide food to all Americans.




> ...
> The new initiative, entitled the Nutritional Protection and Affordable Food Act of 2014, aka ObamaFood, has just emerged from closed door sessions between members of the Obama Administration, Congress, and a coalition of industry experts. This public free market solution will leverage the already successful EBT program with the equally popular and widely available food distribution provider, Walmart. 
> 
> Nancy Pelosi has stated that America will love this new program, and that details will be provided after the Bill has been signed into law. President Obama has praised the hard work involved in ironing out the details of the program and has enthusiastically endorsed the effort, saying "it's the right thing to do."
> 
> Some details have emerged, and the program will include a mandate to purchase food at Walmart, or pay a penalty tax. While people will still be able to purchase food through other vendors, an additional, Federal "non-qualified provider" sales tax will be applied to purchases outside the program. Due to new food safety and price requirements, most Farmers Markets and Co-opts will be closed, and this will also ensure the largest possible pool of ObamaFood users. Industry experts from Walmart have previously emphasized that consumer volume is required to ensure the lowest possible costs.
> 
> A new Cabinent position will be formed to administer and regulate the program, especially to oversee health and nutrional requirements. As a gesture of bipartisan support, President Obama has announced that independent Mayor Michael Bloomberg will be appointed as the first Food Czar of the United States.
> ...
> http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...sal/56088538/1

----------


## angelatc

> So, then you would honestly continue working as an accountant if your manager came in one day and told you that from this day forth we are only going to be paying you 1/6 of your present level of pay and that your weekly hours are going to be increased from 40 to 60 or more and that if you ever dare refuse your "services" will be thereafter terminated?
> 
> You would be willing to bite that bullet for the evolution of the so-called free-markets?


Of course not.  If they were not paying me a market wage, I would not work there.  If I did, it's my own fault.

----------


## angelatc

> Without governmental regulation and oversight we end up with nepotistic powerhouses, oligarchical families such as the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Warburgs, Morgans, Lees, Gates, Soros, et al.
> .


SOmebody want to pick up the light load here?  I mean seriously....this is childs play.

----------


## Ender

> Just announced, a new program to provide food to all Americans.


Your link goes to this:

*Obama to ask for civilian Afghan aid through 2017*

Are you sure you are not copying from The Onion?

----------


## donnay

> Just announced, a new program to provide food to all Americans.



"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Brian4Liberty again"


Those liberals are at it again!! <sarcasm OFF>

----------


## Dr.3D

> SOmebody want to pick up the light load here?  I mean seriously....this is childs play.


Na... rather than put folks on my ignore list, I just get a kick out of watching others waste their breath on these people.

----------


## tod evans

> That's at least partially because Walmart bought a credit card processing company so they could minimize their costs.


Smart business.

----------


## tod evans

> And also consider furniture, which used to be passed down to the children.


This is my line of work, I build with American hardwoods using traditional joinery.......The demand is low but the work is rewarding.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Just announced, a new program to provide food to all Americans.


Wow.  That article manages fit in more Newspeak into a single paragraph than I've seen in a very long time.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Hell, my parents still had their original appliances from when they got married when I went to college--over 20 years, and they all still worked. (Refrigerator, stove, dishwasher--microwave purchased later.)
> 
> And also consider furniture, which used to be passed down to the children.


I dunno...my grandparents' furniture and appliances didn't hold up nearly that well for the most part.  Although things like pans, certain cookware, and guns made back then still work (assuming they're cared for properly).  Awesome.

----------


## angelatc

> Wow, that's interesting.  I wonder why canned salmon is so much less than fresh salmon.   Too bad I like albacore tuna, because that is still bad.  I haven't had any in years now.


DH actually dusted off his account tologin and reply, but fell victim to that stupid "You are not logged in" thing that happens if your cookies aren't right or something, which pissed him off.  So instead of a long, thoughtful intelligent post, you get me, paraphrasing.

The difference is because the salmon they can tend to be smaller, and also leaner.  The bigger, fattier fish are the fish that people buy for fillets. 

Also could be the difference between farm-raised and fresh, but not sure how the FDA samples their fish.

OK - he wants to type the rest of this on my account: LE, meet DH.  DH, meet LE:

While I have many concerns regarding "safe" seafood that I'll get into,  mercury levels in most fish, for the most part, is not one of them. I have researched a great deal of data on the subject neurological issues related to mercury toxin in populations that consume large quantities of seafood that is higher in mercury. This data indicates that the mercury binds with selenium in fish and this bound mercury is is not toxic to us unless you're Jeremy Piven. I'm not saying go wild but I occasionally enjoy a swordfish steak and eat albacore regularly. Of greater concern to me are farm raised fish and shrimp and I research the feed used and processes by farm before consuming. I mostly avoid wild freshwater fish due to pcb's and other chemicals. These days, I am avoiding seafood from the northern Gulf of Mexico due to the chemical disbursements used following the BP spill. The amount of these chemicals in the seafood species and the potential impact on consumers is mostly untested and disgracefully under reported.

----------


## MelissaWV

Re: passing down furniture.

My parents had the same living room furniture from 1973 or so to 2011.  It was hideous.  It was brown, and very very low-seated, and it had stripes that were about a half-inch wide and set maybe four inches apart.  The stripes were in a kind of pumpkin color and a sort of eggshell color.  There was also some stitching in navy blue.  There was a couch, two single chairs, and a loveseat.  Thankfully they decided it did not match the style of the new house, and got rid of everything... except the loveseat.  Mom was so attached to it that now we have that hideous thing in our little family room.  

We still have the dining room set, and the living room "coffee table" (you cannot put coffee on it, though, or any other beverage), and the end table.  The frames are allegedly chrome, and the glass insets are a dark, smoked kind of glass.  The seats to the dining room set are savagely uncomfortable, and upholstered in what I can only think is the ass-skin of a giant off-white mammal of some sort.  Though the "chrome" is pretty gross-looking, and the end table has a chip in it, all of that is still with us.  Did I mention there's a matching lamp?

...

Sometimes I do wish they'd just bought something cheap rather than lugging this around for so long.

* * * 

My furniture will go to nobody, because most of my futniture consists of pseudo-industrial stuff I have repurposed.  I went the route of having some really big, heavy, sturdy furniture before I started living in apartments and realized it would need to be moved.  When I made my last and most abrupt move, I had to leave it behind and I'm pretty sure it went to my across-the-street neighbors.  I'm not sure I'd ever get a big ole wooden bedroom set again.

/tangent done.

----------


## angelatc

> Re: passing down furniture.
> 
> My parents had the same living room furniture from 1973 or so to 2011.  It was hideous.


I totally agree with the "sometimes disposable is better" thing.  Fashion aside, sometimes I just get tired of the same furniture.   But there has to be a medium somewhere.  The sofa set we have now is only 4 years old, I'm not tired of it, it wasn't exactly cheap, but it hasn't worn well.

----------


## Feeding the Abscess

> Sure, you can champion both prospects; such is what America was founded upon after all, individual rights (life and liberty, while pursuing happiness), in following Christian theology.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So then, you advocate such to be the case for the free-markets, but then harken and state that can only be the case for empires?  Is this not an illogical notion to which you are supportive of?
> 
> However, such can work, given an appropriate scenario, such as having a compact of nations exchanging their manufacturing requirements with one another while simultaneously driving down the standards of employee wages and benefits through mass desperation for employment or through the hording of wealth among the very few leaving in their wake an utterly devastated poverty caste, for example (and we are rapidly approaching the brink of either scenario).


No, you had founders advocating for individuals, and you had founders who loved the state. The founders who loved the state won, and the founders advocating for individuals called the abuses the new government would bring.

And there is no contradiction in what I said in regards to free markets and empire. The international division of labor (globalism) is a beautiful and absolutely necessary thing; our empire, the Fed, and governments all around the world are interfering with the division of labor and creating distortions.

----------


## Feeding the Abscess

> His integrity and virtue? ROFTL.  This, along with the snark about overseas tax shelter, are just more clues that this is another liberal who was only attracted to Ron Paul's philosophy because of the antiwar position.    Americans are victims, but not of invasive, greedy government and an intentionally destructive monetary policy.  No, it's WalMart's fault.


He mentioned something to me about my "homeland" in another thread, he's a Nationalist Socialist.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> He mentioned something to me about my "homeland" in another thread, he's a Nationalist Socialist.


Demagoguing is just as bad when we do it as when they do it.  imho.

----------


## MelissaWV

I do find it heartening that America isn't being destroyed by me kissing girls anymore.  That was the trend for a few years.  Thank you, WalMart!

----------


## Feeding the Abscess

> Demagoguing is just as bad when we do it as when they do it.  imho.


All of his talking points are hallmarks of NS ideology, and he resorts to their insults, too; praising the state, opposing the market, and deriding others while taking jabs at their perceived nationality.

It's not demagoguing if it's true.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Yes, I know what PPM is you absolute genius (it is 0.0001%), and neither was the exact quantity or ratios at all the point; however, the fact that a relationally noticeable amount of mercury is present, was.
> 
> Also, no that was not my implication at all, what was however, was that it is cumulative; that is actually ludicrous to state that the PPM of mercury would be a precise weight to size ratio throughout all species of sea-life.  Moreover, the exact PPM in whatever creature being consumed would be largely dependent upon its own surroundings and lifespan (otherwise just one single life-form from the sea would need to be tested to determine an exact measure of mercury).
> 
> Now, if you recall you had prior stated:
> 
> 
> 
> SALMON 0.022
> ...


OK, while it's not 'none' sardines have effectively background environmental levels of mercury at 13 molecules per billion.  Sounds like you are splitting hairs there.

And you really think I'm being cagey about my position on GMO?  First you try to arbitrarily assign me a position on GMO that was a flat out lie, and when I called you on it now you are accusing me of hiding or running from my positon on GMO.  I introduced a $#@!ing _bill_ in the NC State House to require GMO labeling and you think I'm hiding from my position on GMO?  What the hell are you some kind of mental defective?

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> All of his talking points are hallmarks of NS ideology, and he resorts to their insults, too; praising the state, opposing the market, and deriding others while taking jabs at their perceived nationality.
> 
> It's not demagoguing if it's true.


I'm pretty sure that folks like O'reilly Hannity and Limbaugh believe that everything they say is true too, but they are still demagogues.  Not to put you in their category or camp of course, but it's still an appeal to emotionalism and deeply held prejudices.  

It was for this reason that the Internet invented Godwin's law, because demagoguery kinda runs rampant on the internet, even from people who would never otherwise do it.

From random spots around the web:




> A leader who obtains power by means of impassioned appeals to the emotions and prejudices of the populace.





> A demagogue (/ˈdɛməɡɒɡ/) or rabble-rouser is a political leader in a democracy who appeals to the emotions, prejudices, and ignorance of the poorer and less-educated classes in order to gain power.





> Demagoguery is polarizing propaganda that motivates members of an ingroup to hate and scapegoat some outgroup(s), largely by promising certainty, stability, and what Erich Fromm famously called “an escape from freedom.” It significantly undermines the quality of public argument for reasons and in ways discussed below. In the most abstract, the reason it is so harmful is that it creates and fosters a situation in which it is actively dangerous to criticize dominant views, cultures, and political groups. It makes discourse a kind of coercion, largely through rousing and appealing to hate.





> A demagogue is someone who becomes a leader largely because of skills as a speaker or who appeals to emotions and prejudices.
> Though the Greek root for demagogue literally means "a leader of the people," the word has for centuries had a negative connotation: it actually means a leader who has manipulated the emotions and prejudices of the rabble. The reason for the negative connotation is that in ancient Athens, "the people" were considered to be an uncivilized mob. Two of the most famous historical demagogues are said to be Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin.

----------


## Feeding the Abscess

> I'm pretty sure that folks like O'reilly Hannity and Limbaugh believe that everything they say is true too, but they are still demagogues.  Not to put you in their category or camp of course, but it's still an appeal to emotionalism and deeply held prejudices.  
> 
> It was for this reason that the Internet invented Godwin's law, because demagoguery kinda runs rampant on the internet, even from people who would never otherwise do it.
> 
> From random spots around the web:


There's believing something is true, then there's recognizing NS talking points and ideas when you see them and pointing them out for everyone else to see. I'm also not in a position to gain power.

I get what you're saying, it just doesn't apply here.

----------


## Kluge

> Re: passing down furniture.
> 
> My parents had the same living room furniture from 1973 or so to 2011.  It was hideous.  It was brown, and very very low-seated, and it had stripes that were about a half-inch wide and set maybe four inches apart.  The stripes were in a kind of pumpkin color and a sort of eggshell color.  There was also some stitching in navy blue.  There was a couch, two single chairs, and a loveseat.  Thankfully they decided it did not match the style of the new house, and got rid of everything... except the loveseat.  Mom was so attached to it that now we have that hideous thing in our little family room.  
> 
> We still have the dining room set, and the living room "coffee table" (you cannot put coffee on it, though, or any other beverage), and the end table.  The frames are allegedly chrome, and the glass insets are a dark, smoked kind of glass.  The seats to the dining room set are savagely uncomfortable, and upholstered in what I can only think is the ass-skin of a giant off-white mammal of some sort.  Though the "chrome" is pretty gross-looking, and the end table has a chip in it, all of that is still with us.  Did I mention there's a matching lamp?
> 
> ...
> 
> Sometimes I do wish they'd just bought something cheap rather than lugging this around for so long.
> ...


I understand that aspect, but I have a great aunt who has a beautiful china cabinet made of red oak (I think) that has curved glass and stunning hardware. I have a marble dining room table from my mom that will last until it's dropped from a building. My folks had some ugly furniture, but it got stuffed away in the back guest room/office. And sometimes we're so blinded by current trends that we can't see the beauty in an older piece that might just need to be refurbished.

Of course, I'm a bit colored by the fact that we're about to make an offer on a 113 year-old farmhouse that I've already remodeled 10x over in my head with period pieces.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> Your link goes to this:
> 
> *Obama to ask for civilian Afghan aid through 2017*
> 
> Are you sure you are not copying from The Onion?





> Wow.  That article manages fit in more Newspeak into a single paragraph than I've seen in a very long time.

----------


## Weston White

> Remember when toasters and microwave ovens lasted over a decade?


And remember when there were specialized repair shops around town for vacuums or whatever?  Now they are just expensive throwaways.  Vacuums could run 10-years easy, now 5-10 years and their finished.  Washing machines and driers, refrigerators, etc., they all last half as long as they used to and repairing them costs one-quarter the cost of replacing it new, which if you do opt for repair that will only get you another few years before it has some other problem if youre lucky, anyway.  Largely because they have become so complex, using plastic molded pieces and fragile, lighter materials, dozens of specialized settings requiring additional components, circuit boards and touch buttons everywhere, etc.

----------


## Weston White

> What? Do you live on the moon? The Chinese and Indian peasants are POOR- and have been POOR long before Walmart arrived- they now have a chance at a job- and since they live in countries that have a much lower cost of living than the US, they are able to eat. 
> 
> Is it perfect? Hell, no. Is America perfect? Hell, no. 
> 
> America's dollar, the FED and banking issues have done more to ruin people's lives in other countries than Walmart or any other BB has. Couple that with outrageous regulations that drive businesses out of the country and you see what we have today.
> 
> If you do not understand the Federal Reserve, fractional banking, global banks, and the corporate military industrial complex then you are clueless as to why the world is in the state it is in.


Labeling the third world poor is akin to calling Americas original natives savages in need of being rounded up and forcibly encamped.  The rest of that paragraph you wrote evades the points I had made.

What has done more to ruin the lives of other individuals is internationalism, i.e., the one world agenda; the shredding and distain towards multinational appreciation, diversity, and culture.  Cities today, and its residents, appear nearly identical to each other; individual creativity and ingenuity are being silently overrun by corporate corruption (only aided further by cronyism).  Other than that you might as well argue over the damning wrought through various religious beliefs.

The present state of the world is no excuse for corporations to trot gallantly around the world looking for the next-in-line poor employees to exploit for greater profits in their bottom-line.  To do such is to bastardize the efficacy of the so-called free-markets.

----------


## kpitcher

I'll throw my hat in this forum, interesting reading. 

Walmart is simply the box store that figured out logistics like no other company. There's also the fast company article that explains how Walmart demands lower pricing every year, driving companies overseas to save money. http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html - interesting read.

I personally don't like the big box stores. My family had a small hardware store, after a lowes and a home depot opened 10 miles away business profits dropped. Sure we had staff that was actually knowledgeable unlike most at a box store, but basically it comes down to the price point. We still kept busy with our plumbing section due to having things the box stores don't stock, or the know how, but overall store volume dropped. The store ended up being closed, was better to focus on other opportunities.

I can't blame walmart for playing the game and winning. I can choose to spend my money elsewhere. I'm in Michigan and Meijer is based here - that sells the same goods as Walmart, just somehow Meijer stores are always cleaner. 

Technology is changing a lot of things. Walmart has aggressively used tech to lower costs. The Internet is going to keep hurting the existing markets and other stores. Like Best Buy is hurting and closing stores and staff because they can't compete online.  But we all need to keep eating and buying clothes so I don't see walmart going anywhere.

The one complaint I do have, walmart uses their size to not play by the same rules as everyone else. It's like McDonalds being exempt from the health care laws, or other large companies getting favors because of their size and political spending. It's hard enough being an entrepreneur without going against people who are gaming the system.

----------


## Weston White

> That's at least partially because Walmart bought a credit card processing company so they could minimize their costs.


They didn't just purchase a credit processing company, they purchased a credit card company, they can (or perhaps they already do) issue its own Walmart credit cards at whatever interest rate they want to (in addition to its own in-house financial services available at most all Walmarts).

...And isn't it also true that Walmart had attempted to enter the banking industry as well (during 2005-2008), but had to pull out of that little fiasco?

----------


## Weston White

> Wait until you see how this seafood discussion is going to go.  I've seen this dozens of times.  It never gets old.


It’s going to go nowhere.  For, you are free to believe what you want, it is your freewill and you can exercise it to your own delight.  As far as I am concerned the matter is entire contained in one’s own common sense and discretion.

So please, by all means, chomp down at least one seafood dish a day, get your quarterly vaccinations, keep your cell-phone tucked away in your blouse pocket, have your Bluetooth implanted in your ear, and be sure to consume at least eight glasses of fluoridated water each day like the good little mindless drone that you so very clearly are.

----------


## Kluge

> And remember when there were specialized repair shops around town for vacuums or whatever?  Now they are just expensive throwaways.  Vacuums could run 10-years easy, now 5-10 years and their finished.  Washing machines and driers, refrigerators, etc., they all last half as long as they used to and repairing them costs one-quarter the cost of replacing it new, which if you do opt for repair that will only get you another few years before it has some other problem if you’re lucky, anyway.  Largely because they have become so complex, using plastic molded pieces and fragile, lighter materials, dozens of specialized settings requiring additional components, circuit boards and touch buttons everywhere, etc.


That is due, in large part, to the choices that we make. I was living in a house that I rented from a friend which had older appliances--I fixed the dryer myself when it went off the rails. My mother had new appliances and I couldn't do a damn thing with them aside from get a tech to replace the entire circuit board on her washing machine. You lose some efficiency by using older stuff, but it's easy to work on them.

Your choice, and most have selected throw-aways. And most people also don't research appliance purchases, but buy what looks the nicest with their decor--I research almost anything that will cost more than $100.

----------


## Kluge

> It’s going to go nowhere.  For, you are free to believe what you want, it is your freewill and you can exercise it to your own delight.  As far as I am concerned the matter is entire contained in one’s own common sense and discretion.
> 
> So please, by all means, chomp down at least one seafood dish a day, get your quarterly vaccinations, keep your cell-phone tucked away in your blouse pocket, have your Bluetooth implanted in your ear, and be sure to consume at least eight glasses of fluoridated water each day like the good little mindless drone that you so very clearly are.


Is it not equally fair to draw a caricature of you chomping down on vegan fare, sitting on a high horse, getting sick from tuberculosis and waxing poetic about how those who use cell phones are going to sprout a massive tumor on their skull? And be sure to consume at least 10 non-BPA bottles of glacial water that monks in the Himalayas have blessed for you that cost $5/bottle, like the good little superior drone that you clearly are...

There's a balance to be had, and you're just the opposite side of the coin of the caricature that you painted of Angela.

----------


## Weston White

> Of course not.  If they were not paying me a market wage, I would not work there.  If I did, it's my own fault.


Whats that now?  Do you actually mean that you would not just feel privileged and blissful to be working for an employer that is exerting their free-market prowess so expertly?  Then, you do admit that you would not be content just being employed that you, as an employee, would have your own personal concerns as to the amount and quantity of your recompense and the amount of time you would be obligated to work?  Then, you admit that the employer-employee relationship entails aspirations and considerations other than just the employers?

----------


## Weston White

> SOmebody want to pick up the light load here?  I mean seriously....this is childs play.


Doesnt appear that anybody does, so why dont you go ahead and do it yourself?  I mean with it being childs play and whatnot.

Those families have all conspired and colluded with governments to their own selfish benefit and irrepealable advancement, they are robber barons that persistently beat us all over the head with their pipedreams of technocratic eugenics and internationalism, using propagandist scaremongering and falsehoods to realize their covert achievements.

----------


## chudrockz

So, since this godawfulness has returned, Weston, I'm still waiting for that list of companies:  the good, the bad, the ugly. Please! I have some errands to run today.

So basically we know that Walmart and Sam's Club are the Devil incarnate. Is Target okay? What about Scheels? Gander Mountain? Fleet Farm? Lowes? Rainbow Foods? Those are just about .01% of my other shopping options in a small-sized, thriving town of 30,000 which Walmart has completely failed to destroy in twenty plus years. Guess they must have a REALLY long-term plan in place, huh?

----------


## Defining Obscene

I say its a rather poor argument to make that Wal-Mart destroys competition by being too competitive. Isn't that the name of the game?

Still, I can never escape feeling like a peasant when I do shop there. Its kind of creepy, I don't get that feeling anywhere else.

I am also slightly bothered by people saying that they wouldn't work at Wal-Mart because they don't pay enough, implying that in a bad economy everyone who works at Wal-Mart is doing so completely voluntarily. Its almost like the WPA, making America's employment situation look better than it is. I'm thankful that I don't work there but I understand why so many immigrants do, what else are they going to do And for those of you who want to compare Wal-Mart to Target or other big chain stores, Wal-Mart always hires the lowest skilled workers, taking a page from our agro-business playbook.

----------


## Weston White

> No, you had founders advocating for individuals, and you had founders who loved the state. The founders who loved the state won, and the founders advocating for individuals called the abuses the new government would bring.
> 
> And there is no contradiction in what I said in regards to free markets and empire. The international division of labor (globalism) is a beautiful and absolutely necessary thing; our empire, the Fed, and governments all around the world are interfering with the division of labor and creating distortions.


The U.S. Constitution and our founding documents represents the wisdom of fixed tenets in providence, in itself they are merely a set of document that are wholly incapable of defending itself from abuses in human nature; thus, compelling those it represents to remain as its faithful watchpersons.

Also, you are confusing the collective outsourcing of employment with the international exchange of commerce.  And no giving away all of Americas occupations is not at all necessary, but it is plum dumb and irresponsible.  America is not an empire; while, apparently the federalese have effectively created a bog, to which your type have become lost inside of, aimlessly floundering.





> _Liberty cannot be preserved without a general knowledge among the people, who have a right, from the frame of their nature, to knowledge, as their great Creator, who does nothing in vain, has given them understandings, and a desire to know; but besides this, they have a right, an indisputable, unalienable, indefeasible, divine right to that most dreaded and envied kind of knowledge; I mean, of the characters and conduct of their rulers._  John Adams 
> 
> _[D]emocracy will soon degenerate into an anarchy, such an anarchy that every man will do what is right in his own eyes and no man's life or property or reputation or liberty will be secure, and every one of these will soon mould itself into a system of subordination of all the moral virtues and intellectual abilities, all the powers of wealth, beauty, wit and science, to the wanton pleasures, the capricious will, and the execrable cruelty of one or a very few._  John Adams
> 
> _Enlighten the people, generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like spirits at the dawn of day._  Thomas Jefferson
> 
> _We, the People, are the rightful masters of both the Congress and the Courts. Not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who have perverted it._  Abraham Lincoln

----------


## chudrockz

I've heard for a couple of years now that Walmart intends to build a distribution center in my town, and in large part due to this thread I investigated that a day or two ago. It's not here yet, but I'm strongly inclined to apply for a job there when it arrives.

----------


## Weston White

> He mentioned something to me about my "homeland" in another thread, he's a Nationalist Socialist.


Wow, now that's rich.  An egocentric individual that is entirely supportive of companies such as Walmart is now labeling me a socialist.  Hint, hint:

----------


## Weston White

> All of his talking points are hallmarks of NS ideology, and he resorts to their insults, too; praising the state, opposing the market, and deriding others while taking jabs at their perceived nationality.
> 
> It's not demagoguing if it's true.


A big negative, I am strictly a Constitutionalist; the simplistic notation and novelty of anarchism is entirely a fallacy, as much as corporatist socialism (fascism) is.  Neither do I oppose the markets, I fully support fair-trade over free-trade; as the paradox of the latter is only free for those at the top and crushingly abusive (exploitative) for those at the bottom.

We are a governed people, a nation of laws, for better or worse.   It is for _WE THE PEOPLE_ to refrain all public offices from abusing its grant of powers and likewise to ensure that all individuals uphold that strength of our nation and when away that they honor and inculcate the same in accord with _the law of nations_.

----------


## chudrockz

I must be on ignore now or something, since Weston patently refuses to provide me with my list of companies with which it is appropriate to do business. And it's t minus an hour or two to errands. Walmart, here I come!

----------


## Weston White

> Is it not equally fair to draw a caricature of you chomping down on vegan fare, sitting on a high horse, getting sick from tuberculosis and waxing poetic about how those who use cell phones are going to sprout a massive tumor on their skull? And be sure to consume at least 10 non-BPA bottles of glacial water that monks in the Himalayas have blessed for you that cost $5/bottle, like the good little superior drone that you clearly are...
> 
> There's a balance to be had, and you're just the opposite side of the coin of the caricature that you painted of Angela.


Well, at the very least my caricature would look a hell of lot more impressive than the former (though I am not getting the tuberculosis reference).

----------


## Weston White

> I say its a rather poor argument to make that Wal-Mart destroys competition by being too competitive. Isn't that the name of the game?
> 
> Still, I can never escape feeling like a peasant when I do shop there. Its kind of creepy, I don't get that feeling anywhere else.
> 
> I am also slightly bothered by people saying that they wouldn't work at Wal-Mart because they don't pay enough, implying that in a bad economy everyone who works at Wal-Mart is doing so completely voluntarily. Its almost like the WPA, making America's employment situation look better than it is. I'm thankful that I don't work there but I understand why so many immigrants do, what else are they going to do And for those of you who want to compare Wal-Mart to Target or other big chain stores, Wal-Mart always hires the lowest skilled workers, taking a page from our agro-business playbook.


lolol  I think you're confusing commerce with the UFC (MMA).

----------


## donnay

> And remember when there were specialized repair shops around town for vacuums or whatever?  Now they are just expensive throwaways.  Vacuums could run 10-years easy, now 5-10 years and their finished.  Washing machines and driers, refrigerators, etc., they all last half as long as they used to and repairing them costs one-quarter the cost of replacing it new, which if you do opt for repair that will only get you another few years before it has some other problem if you’re lucky, anyway.  Largely because they have become so complex, using plastic molded pieces and fragile, lighter materials, dozens of specialized settings requiring additional components, circuit boards and touch buttons everywhere, etc.


And Planned Obsolesce.

----------


## tod evans

I don't know if "planned obsolesce" is a real endeavor...

That would be giving businesses a somewhat sinister overture..

However building products to meet a price-point is something that takes place regularly and due to consumers demand for lower prices, I fear shorter product life is a side effect. 

Money is what drives business/politicians/thieves and ex-wives..........Of the four listed it's only businesses I respect for their quest.

----------


## Kluge

> Well, at the very least my caricature would look a hell of lot more impressive than the former (though I am not getting the tuberculosis reference).


Only because my caricature of you is probably more accurate.

----------


## HigherVision

There's too much blatant anti-capitalist protectionism disguised as anti-crony capitalism. Wal-Mart rules. Down with confused leftist Ron Paul 'supporters'.

----------


## angelatc

> They didn't just purchase a credit processing company, they purchased a credit card company, they can (or perhaps they already do) issue its own Walmart credit cards at whatever interest rate they want to (in addition to its own in-house financial services available at most all Walmarts).
> 
> ...And isn't it also true that Walmart had attempted to enter the banking industry as well (during 2005-2008), but had to pull out of that little fiasco?


I was afraid that if I said credit card company, people would have asserted that I meant they bought Visa or Mastercard, which clearly isn't true. 

Walmart is in the basic banking industry in that they cash checks and they offer low-fee debit cards. Much like the way they entered the American retail market, they're soliciting the segment of society that the large banks don't want  - the little guy.  They did change direction in their banking maneuver, but lots of other retailers (and unions, and manufacturers) have bank and thrift charters, so I assume it was partly because they saw the banking industry was getting ready to collapse.

But it was probably also probably because the banking industry has used the government to throw up quite a few entry barriers.  The last thing they want is a low cost efficient operator playing their game.

http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2005-02-06/wal-mart-your-new-banker 




> Yet if Wal-Mart were to gain full banking status, it would be able to offer everything from checking and savings accounts to mortgages, car loans, and even small-business loans at prices that rivals could be hard put to match, let alone beat.


Low prices - scary, scary stuff to the competition....

----------


## chudrockz

> I was afraid that if I said credit card company, people would have asserted that I meant they bought Visa or Mastercard, which clearly isn't true. 
> 
> Walmart is in the basic banking industry in that they cash checks and they offer low-fee debit cards. Much like the way they entered the American retail market, they're soliciting the segment of society that the large banks don't want  - the little guy.  They did change direction in their banking maneuver, but lots of other retailers (and unions, and manufacturers) have bank and thrift charters, so I assume it was because they saw the banking industry was getting ready to collapse.


And if (when) it DOES collapse, and Walmart is positioned well to profit from that collapse, I'm sure the Westons of the forum will find a way to claim that the banking collapse is the FAULT of Walmart.

----------


## Weston White

> I don't know if "planned obsolesce" is a real endeavor...
> 
> That would be giving businesses a somewhat sinister overture..
> 
> However building products to meet a price-point is something that takes place regularly and due to consumers demand for lower prices, I fear shorter product life is a side effect. 
> 
> Money is what drives business/politicians/thieves and ex-wives..........Of the four listed it's only businesses I respect for their quest.


Now, there is no reason to be using plastic retaining and mounting pieces in place of metal on moving parts (especially parts that are under stress), also being exposed to the elements, for example.

----------


## Weston White

> Only because my caricature of you is probably more accurate.


Not really so much, but she is the one being supportive to that line of nonthinking and void in self-awareness, not I.

----------


## angelatc

> I don't know if "planned obsolesce" is a real endeavor...
> 
> That would be giving businesses a somewhat sinister overture..
> 
> However building products to meet a price-point is something that takes place regularly and due to consumers demand for lower prices, I fear shorter product life is a side effect. 
> 
> Money is what drives business/politicians/thieves and ex-wives..........Of the four listed it's only businesses I respect for their quest.



Planned obsolesence is indeed part of the general manuracturing business strategy.  Case in point - I read somewhere that the now-illegal incandescent light bulbs could be made to last virtually forever (power surges and gravity related incidents aside) merely by making the filament a hair longer and thicker.  And several small manufacturers did try that, but people didn't gravitate to them because they cost more than the traditional bulbs, which were designed to burn out.

Sometimes the phrase is used to indicate the expected lifespan of a device, but the manufacturers do indeed sell products not designed to last forever.

----------


## donnay

> I say its a rather poor argument to make that Wal-Mart destroys competition by being too competitive. Isn't that the name of the game?
> 
> Still, I can never escape feeling like a peasant when I do shop there. Its kind of creepy, I don't get that feeling anywhere else.
> 
> I am also slightly bothered by people saying that they wouldn't work at Wal-Mart because they don't pay enough, implying that in a bad economy everyone who works at Wal-Mart is doing so completely voluntarily. Its almost like the WPA, making America's employment situation look better than it is. I'm thankful that I don't work there but I understand why so many immigrants do, what else are they going to do And for those of you who want to compare Wal-Mart to Target or other big chain stores, Wal-Mart always hires the lowest skilled workers, taking a page from our agro-business playbook.


It is all done by design.  Mostly because government helps protect Wal-Marx to great degree.  The regulations that are placed on a Mom and Pop store are far more oppressive than Wal-Marx.  

If you are a vendor, you better look out as well.  Wal-Marx takes your product at the price you want to sell it, leaving in loop-holes in, at their discretion, they can change those prices and force you to sell or they will drop you.

Here is a story from a man who owned his own apparel  factories:

I’m an 81-year-old retired apparel manufacturer. I had five factories, and all of them were here in Texas. I was producing apparel for JC Penney’s, Sears, Montgomery Ward’s, and a multitude of independent stores, small chains. I had a business and I built it up to $50 million a year, which was a pretty good size back in the 60’s, 70’s and 80s. 

When I started my companies, I said we’re going to do everything possible to make conditions as good as possible and wages as good as possible. Not out of the goodness of our heart, but I believed if we treat people right and pay reasonable wages and have good working conditions that we’ll have good, productive workers. And it worked for us. I hired the best engineering firms in the country to come in and make my plants the most modern plants in my industry: productive, efficient.

I’m out there competing with the rest of the manufacturers in this country—I probably had a thousand competitors. But we had the best, most efficient plants, I could be priced efficiently.

Walmart would squeeze you so much on prices that you couldn’t do these things and remain manufacturing in this country.

I was president of the Southwestern Apparel Manufacturers Association. There was a meeting sometime between 1985 and 1990. Walmart had contacted our organization and asked if they could meet with us at our beautiful Apparel Mart we had here in Dallas, which has now been razed, because all the independent merchants don’t exist that used to come to it. Two people from Walmart came down and they said they were going to be sourcing goods from overseas and we would have to meet those prices for consumer products and to get ready for it—we are going to be sourcing the world. Walmart was the only company that came out and said this.

It was sort of shocking: I was selling them some merchandise at the time. On the back of their trucks it was saying “Bring it Back to America!” They had the big “keep it in America” program going at that time on the big signs in the stores. Meanwhile when I reminded the buyer of that, she told me, “that is just for domestic consumption, we’re going to buy at the cheapest we can anywhere on earth.”

I could see that if you’re going to be a player in the apparel industry you’re going to have to sell Walmart: they were just too big a user. Their orders were like telephone numbers— the quantity. You don’t negotiate prices with Walmart because they can just tell you what they’re going to pay and that’s it. You got to make it cheaper than you did last year.

People didn’t start importing from overseas because they wanted to. They did it because they had to, to survive. Those that didn’t join in the club are not around anymore.

I could see the handwriting on the wall.

http://keepamericaatwork.com/

____________________________________________

According to the non-profit Center for Responsive Politics, Walmart spent $7.8 million on lobbying in 2011 alone.[xvi] While this money was paid to influence a range of legislation, from promoting corporate tax cuts to opposing a bill to guarantee paid sick time to working people, trade policy was among the issues Walmart lobbied on most aggressively. In fact, Walmart has lobbied to make it easier to push American jobs out of the country for years, playing a key role in in lobbying for NAFTA in the early 1990s.

http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/cli...0367&year=2011

----------


## angelatc

> And if (when) it DOES collapse, and Walmart is positioned well to profit from that collapse, I'm sure the Westons of the forum will find a way to claim that the banking collapse is the FAULT of Walmart.


Yes, it will clearly be Walmarts fault that our government sold so much debt to China.

----------


## Kluge

> Not really so much, but she is the one being supportive to that line of nonthinking and void in self-awareness, not I.


If you say so. But you aren't the paragon of integrity that you think, in my opinion. And that alleged void in self-awareness that you think you've pointed out in another should make you take a good, long look at yourself, because you aren't that wonderful.

----------


## Kluge

> I was afraid that if I said credit card company, people would have asserted that I meant they bought Visa or Mastercard, which clearly isn't true. 
> 
> Walmart is in the basic banking industry in that they cash checks and they offer low-fee debit cards. Much like the way they entered the American retail market, they're soliciting the segment of society that the large banks don't want  - the little guy.  They did change direction in their banking maneuver, but lots of other retailers (and unions, and manufacturers) have bank and thrift charters, so I assume it was partly because they saw the banking industry was getting ready to collapse.
> 
> But it was probably also probably because the banking industry has used the government to throw up quite a few entry barriers.  The last thing they want is a low cost efficient operator playing their game.
> 
> http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2005-02-06/wal-mart-your-new-banker 
> 
> 
> ...


One of the niches they fill in alternative banking helps some of the most desperately poor have an alternative to the sharks at typical check-cashing joints in dangerous neighborhoods. What a bunch of jerks.

----------


## Weston White

> Walmart is in the basic banking industry in that they cash checks and they offer low-fee debit cards.


Is an average APR of 22.90% low to you?  ...U-S-U-R-Y.





> They did change direction in their banking maneuver, but lots of other retailers (and unions, and manufacturers) have bank and thrift charters, so I assume it was partly because they saw the banking industry was getting ready to collapse.


Now that is not entirely true.

----------


## angelatc

> It is all done by design.  Mostly because government helps protect Wal-Marx to great degree.  The regulations that are placed on a Mom and Pop store are far more oppressive than Wal-Marx.  
> 
> If you are a vendor, you better look out as well.  Wal-Marx takes your product at the price you want to sell it, leaving in loop-holes in, at their discretion, they can change those prices and force you to sell or they will drop you.
> 
> Here is a story from a man who owned his own apparel  factories:
> 
> I’m an 81-year-old retired apparel manufacturer. I had five factories, and all of them were here in Texas. I was producing apparel for JC Penney’s, Sears, Montgomery Ward’s, and a multitude of independent stores, small chains. I had a business and I built it up to $50 million a year, which was a pretty good size back in the 60’s, 70’s and 80s. 
> 
> When I started my companies, I said we’re going to do everything possible to make conditions as good as possible and wages as good as possible. Not out of the goodness of our heart, but I believed if we treat people right and pay reasonable wages and have good working conditions that we’ll have good, productive workers. And it worked for us. I hired the best engineering firms in the country to come in and make my plants the most modern plants in my industry: productive, efficient.
> ...


Opensecrets.org is a liberal propaganda site. You'll get nowhere playing the emotion card over the truth - its demeaning.  I asked you before - tell me exactly which regulations that WalMart is exempt from and we'll talk.  Until then, quit bitching that they get preferential treatment.  The compliance burden from SOX alone is 10x's for Walmart than it is for the greedy-inefficient-expensive-Mom & Pop- shops-that-didn't-offer-benefits-either operators.   Again, look at the bull$#@! that Walmart has to put up with from the media alone, and tell me who else could work under that pressure and while providing millions of jobs to unskilled, uneducated, unmotivated people.  

Tell me why people didn't want to buy stuff that was made in America.  This is from your article: 



> People didn’t start importing from overseas because they wanted to. They did it because they had to, to survive. Those that didn’t join in the club are not around anymore.


Posting the same claptrap over and over isn't going to change anybody's mind.  This is simply economically retarded.

So cry me a $#@!ing river.    Retailers that didn't lower their prices were pushed out of business.  The unions can't compete with low wages.

----------


## Weston White

> Yes, it will clearly be Walmarts fault that our government sold so much debt to China.


lolol, When the banking industry collapses?  And exactly how would they stand to reap profit from such a collapse?  Oh I know from all the people raiding their stores in droves to clear off their shelves like it is Katrina 05' all over again? Oh, wait, because they will be greatly reducing their operating expenses in that they will no longer be able to pay their employees wages any longer?

And to add to the irony, one could state that it is companies such as Walmart that enabled nations like China to buy into America's national debt in the first place.

----------


## angelatc

> Is an average APR of 22.90% low to you?  ...U-S-U-R-Y.


Usery laws are price caps, and have no place in a free market.  And since it looks like their cards are actually issued by discover, blame the government for keeping them subject to the inefficient practices of the big banks.






> Now that is not entirely true.


  Hence the word, "assume."   The banks and government did indeed throw up entry barriers to their banking efforts, but I assume that the reason they didn't push it was because they saw the trouble that the economy was in.

----------


## KMX

wall-mart pays people .50 cents an hour in china to make cheap items to sell to us in the States. That's called slavery. Do you condone that?

----------


## Weston White

> If you say so. But you aren't the paragon of integrity that you think, in my opinion. And that alleged void in self-awareness that you think you've pointed out in another should make you take a good, long look at yourself, because you aren't that wonderful.


Yes, because after all, I am socialist.  

At any rate, I stand by my convictions and that is more than enough for me.

----------


## donnay

> I don't know if "planned obsolesce" is a real endeavor...
> 
> That would be giving businesses a somewhat sinister overture..
> 
> However building products to meet a price-point is something that takes place regularly and due to consumers demand for lower prices, I fear shorter product life is a side effect. 
> 
> Money is what drives business/politicians/thieves and ex-wives..........Of the four listed it's only businesses I respect for their quest.



Planned Obsolesces was put in place to manipulate each and every one of us.  It helped to develop another 'ism' -- consumerism.  Edward Bernays (nephew of Sigmund Freud) would be proud of this legacy.

----------


## Weston White

> wall-mart pays people .50 cents an hour in china to make cheap items to sell to us in the States. That's called slavery. Do you condone that?


Absolutely not, under any circumstances, ever, flat-out, period.

----------


## angelatc

> lolol, When the banking industry collapses?  And exactly how would they stand to reap profit from such a collapse?  Oh I know from all the people raiding their stores in droves to clear off their shelves like it is Katrina 05' all over again? Oh, wait, because they will be greatly reducing their operating expenses in that they will no longer be able to pay their employees wages any longer?


  That seems to be a bit of a babble. Just so you know.    But you're the business expert. You tell me how Walmart would stand to profit from a customer base that couldn't afford to buy their products and a minimum wage set so high they couldn't afford to lower wages to the market level.

----------


## angelatc

> wall-mart pays people .50 cents an hour in china to make cheap items to sell to us in the States. That's called slavery. Do you condone that?


More liberal indoctrination. Stupid as a career choice?  $#@!ing congratulations on your feminine side.

I condone the free market.  

Besides, Walmart isn't a manufacturer.  They buy things from manufacturers.  To the best of my knowledge, Walmart doesn't pay anybody to make anything.  They buy things that other people make, and sell them all over the world.

It isn't slavery if they're getting paid .50 an hour, and they're not forced at gunpoint to show up for work.   But hey - tell the Chinese government to stop undervaluing their currency if all that really bothers you.

----------


## Weston White

> Usery laws are price caps, and have no place in a free market.  And since it looks like their cards are actually issued by discover, blame the government for keeping them subject to the inefficient practices of the big banks.


Usury laws are "price caps", O-M-G!!!  I can't even respond to that one...

And Discover is another of the cards they issue, aside from their basic credit card.  And the government as you claim has little to do with that overly high APR; in fact, the reason that it is so high is because of the risks involved with their target market, which is the lower class and poverty stricken.





> The banks and government did indeed throw up entry barriers to their banking efforts, but I assume that the reason they didn't push it was because they saw the trouble that the economy was in.


They, threw up "barriers", well that is definitely another way to look at it, albeit not very truthful.  And you actually mean that Walmart had advanced knowledge of the horror that was coming down the pike and they didn't even bother to inform all their valued customers?

----------


## angelatc

> One of the niches they fill in alternative banking helps some of the most desperately poor have an alternative to the sharks at typical check-cashing joints in dangerous neighborhoods. What a bunch of jerks.


That's exactly it.  I can get a better deal at my S&L, but not everybody can.  WalMart isn't directly competing with the banks, they're competing with the check-cashing places.

Note that they give rebates if you spend the money in their store, too.  Those greedy pricks.

----------


## KMX

> More liberal indoctrination. Stupid as a career choice?  $#@!ing congratulations on your feminine side.
> 
> I condone the free market.  
> 
> Besides, Walmart isn't a manufacturer.  They buy things from manufacturers.  To the best of my knowledge, Walmart doesn't pay anybody to make anything.  They buy things that other people make, and sell them all over the world.
> 
> It isn't slavery if they're getting paid .50 an hour, and they're not forced at gunpoint to show up for work.   But hey - tell the Chinese government to stop undervaluing their currency if all that really bothers you.


"To the best of my knowledge"

Do some research instead of assume.

----------


## donnay

> Opensecrets.org is a liberal propaganda site. You'll get nowhere playing the emotion card over the truth - its demeaning.  I asked you before - tell me exactly which regulations that WalMart is exempt from and we'll talk.  Until then, quit bitching that they get preferential treatment.  The compliance burden from SOX alone is 10x's for Walmart than it is for the greedy-inefficient-expensive-Mom & Pop- shops-that-didn't-offer-benefits-either operators.   Again, look at the bull$#@! that Walmart has to put up with from the media alone, and tell me who else could work under that pressure and while providing millions of jobs to unskilled, uneducated, unmotivated people.



Hmm, that is quite confusing.  If that is a leftist propaganda read why do you suppose they are against such practices?  The typical leftists thinking is towards socialism not capitalism, correct?




> So cry me a $#@!ing river. Retailers that didn't lower their prices were pushed out of business. The unions can't compete with low wages.


So the same would apply to your way of thinking; cry me a $#@!ing river...your reasoning for shopping at Wal-Marx is because you cannot afford anywhere else to shop.  So when the only player in the game is Wal-Marx that river will run deep.  How can a free market compete with an imperialistic company?

I guess you overlooked all that the man said--No where in the below quote did this man say anything about unions.

"When I started my companies, I said we’re going to do everything possible to make conditions as good as possible and wages as good as possible. Not out of the goodness of our heart, but I believed if we treat people right and pay reasonable wages and have good working conditions that we’ll have good, productive workers. And it worked for us. I hired the best engineering firms in the country to come in and make my plants the most modern plants in my industry: productive, efficient."

----------


## Weston White

> That seems to be a bit of a babble. Just so you know.    But you're the business expert. You tell me how Walmart would stand to profit from a customer base that couldn't afford to buy their products and a minimum wage set so high they couldn't afford to lower wages to the market level.


Walmart would not have to worry about, nor would any other businesses for that matter, because under a banking collapse scenario (or a "bank holiday") there would be no money circulating (e.g., demonetization) for which to be spent by the majority of the consumer base (save for those that managed to "bank run").

----------


## angelatc

> Usury laws are "price caps", O-M-G!!!  I can't even respond to that one...


Because it's true.  




> And Discover is another of the cards they issue, aside from their basic credit card.  And the government as you claim has little to do with that overly high APR; in fact, the reason that it is so high is because of the risks involved with their target market, which is the lower class and poverty stricken.


You mean the people least likely to actually pay back the cards, and thus higher risk, and this unable to get credit other places, therefore commanding a higher interest rate?  The people the big, bailed out banks don't want?  Oh my God, serving a high risk market?  The horror.



> They, threw up "barriers", well that is definitely another way to look at it, albeit not very truthful.


It's absolutely truthful.  Gramm-Leech-Bailey circa 1999, and the California legislature wrote new law specifically to protect the bankers from having to compete with Walmart.[/QUOTE]




> And you actually mean that Walmart had advanced knowledge of the horror that was coming down the pike and they didn't even bother to inform all their valued customers?


Please go look up the word assume.  And regardless, economic theory does not equate to advanced knowledge. Never the less, I would not expect Walmart to tell its competition its reasons for making the decisions that it make.   But they've been quite prescient at predicting market conditions and managing their finances, so it would make sense if they felt the unrest before the rest of the world did.

----------


## TruthisTreason

Unless Wal Mart owns the shoe stores (Payless, etc), they show you how to compete with Wal Mart, as they move in across the street from them.

----------


## Weston White

> More liberal indoctrination. Stupid as a career choice?  $#@!ing congratulations on your feminine side.
> 
> I condone the free market.  
> 
> Besides, Walmart isn't a manufacturer.  They buy things from manufacturers.  To the best of my knowledge, Walmart doesn't pay anybody to make anything.  They buy things that other people make, and sell them all over the world.
> 
> It isn't slavery if they're getting paid .50 an hour, and they're not forced at gunpoint to show up for work.   But hey - tell the Chinese government to stop undervaluing their currency if all that really bothers you.


Wow, rude much?

People have been posting about this aspect of Walmart (and I think a few are even pro-crony-capitalist Walmart advocates), that they force their wants upon manufacturers and if they cannot deliver, then they are eighty-sixed (i.e., Walmart is an enabler in all of this).

Even slaves, were compensated (just as are prisoners in our present day), largely under the barter system.  Just because you receive recompense or are there "willingly" does not disqualify the title.  One could as well argue that slaves had willfully served their masters.  Plainly, it is what it is.

So what will be next on the agenda for Walmart?  Seasonal employment for the "poor" Amish?

----------


## Danan

> Whats that now?  Do you actually mean that you would not just feel privileged and blissful to be working for an employer that is exerting their free-market prowess so expertly?  Then, you do admit that you would not be content just being employed that you, as an employee, would have your own personal concerns as to the amount and quantity of your recompense and the amount of time you would be obligated to work?  Then, you admit that the employer-employee relationship entails aspirations and considerations other than just the employers?


No, she's saying that an employee who does not feel that his wage is an adequate compensation for his work will not continue to work there.

And that's totally contradicting your position. The fact that Wallmart has many employees agreeing to work for the wage they offer proves that those workers prefer their current status over any available alternative. That is in no way comparable with slavery. The same thing is true with Chinese workers.

Your protectionist vision could (in a very doubtful best-case-scenario for you) be a small net gain for some American low-skilled workers (who would earn a few bucks more) on the expense of all the American workers who would be unemployed, all the American consumers (higher prices), the American industry that gets a comperative advantage due to free trade with cheap-labor markets and of all Chinese low-skilled workers whose wages would obviously go *down* in such a scenario. To say that American demand for Chinese products "enslaves" Chinese workers is completely wrong. As described above these workers wouldn't work there if they had better alternatives. They are *not* (in 99.9999% of all cases) physically forced to work there. Very often the local populace fights for a chance to work in a sweatshop because it's better than very hard physical agricultural labor on barren land and without adequate mechanical tools.

Everyone with some knowledge in foreign trade theory knows that overall productivity necessarily has to go up in a completely free market. The bigger the disparity the higher the advantage of global free trade. The same division of labor that enables you to specialize in your comperative advantage between you and your neighbour, people in different towns, counties and states creates higher productivity on a global scale too.

----------


## Kluge

> Yes, because after all, I am socialist.  
> 
> At any rate, I stand by my convictions and that is more than enough for me.


I never called you a socialist or any other name.

----------


## tod evans

> Now, there is no reason to be using plastic retaining and mounting pieces in place of metal on moving parts (especially parts that are under stress), also being exposed to the elements, for example.


Of course there is......Price point.

I'm well versed in woodworking machinery and for over 30 years I've watched first Japan and now China and India focus on an existing product, copy it's basic overall design and then back into a price point.

Hitting that price point requires making use of existing manufacturing and materials. The "lowest bidder" is generally low for a reason.





> Planned obsolesence is indeed part of the general manuracturing business strategy.  Case in point - I read somewhere that the now-illegal incandescent light bulbs could be made to last virtually forever (power surges and gravity related incidents aside) merely by making the filament a hair longer and thicker.  And several small manufacturers did try that, but people didn't gravitate to them because they cost more than the traditional bulbs, which were designed to burn out.
> 
> Sometimes the phrase is used to indicate the expected lifespan of a device, but the manufacturers do indeed sell products not designed to last forever.


Here again it sounds to me more like backing into a price-point than building with the intention to fail.

A company built light bulbs correctly and the consumer chose to shop on price alone... (Now the damn government is involved in light bulbs )






> Planned Obsolesces was put in place to manipulate each and every one of us.  It helped to develop another 'ism' -- consumerism.  Edward Bernays (nephew of Sigmund Freud) would be proud of this legacy.



Okay? I know absolutely nothing about "ism's" or Mr. Bernay.

I'm only basing my statements on my own observations.

I've never heard a "builder" (home/car/widget) state that they are building to fail.........However I regularly hear that they're being forced by competition to lessen their quality in order to compete on price.

I'm no expert on anything so what I've typed is worth exactly what you've paid for it...

----------


## angelatc

> Hmm, that is quite confusing.  If that is a leftist propaganda read why do you suppose they are against such practices?  The typical leftists thinking is towards socialism not capitalism, correct?


What makes you think OpenSecrets is a fan of capitalism?  Looking at their mission statement, I don't see that anywhere.  They're trying to shape policy, just like everybody else. 

Those sob-stories about not being able to compete price-wise is economically retarded.  Take the millionaire mattress manufacturer - he had four choices - lobby for protection, off-shore the labor, fold up shop, or rebrand as an upscale, quality luxury product.  He failed. Oh well, that's how business works.   Personally, I think it's asinine to think that mattresses should cost $5000 and up, but maybe that's just me. 



> So the same would apply to your way of thinking; cry me a $#@!ing river...your reasoning for shopping at Wal-Marx is because you cannot afford anywhere else to shop.  So when the only player in the game is Wal-Marx that river will run deep.  How can a free market compete with an imperialistic company?


Monopolies only happen with government intervention.  People said that same thing about A&P, who were even bigger domestically (adjusted for inflation) than Walmart is even now.  Guess what?  Smaller players with innovative ideas pushed them to the brink of extinction. 




> I guess you overlooked all that the man said--No where in the below quote did this man say anything about unions.
> 
> "When I started my companies, I said we’re going to do everything possible to make conditions as good as possible and wages as good as possible. Not out of the goodness of our heart, but I believed if we treat people right and pay reasonable wages and have good working conditions that we’ll have good, productive workers. And it worked for us. I hired the best engineering firms in the country to come in and make my plants the most modern plants in my industry: productive, efficient."


Apparently he was wrong.  What he meant to say was, "It worked for us for a while, but then the market changed and I couldn't keep up because my model was inefficient and outdated."  Today, he's probably running a solar company.

----------


## chudrockz

> Wow, rude much?
> 
> People have been posting about this aspect of Walmart (and I think a few are even pro-crony-capitalist Walmart advocates), that they force their wants upon manufacturers and if they cannot deliver, then they are eighty-sixed (i.e., Walmart is an enabler in all of this).
> 
> Even slaves, were compensated (just as are prisoners in our present day), largely under the barter system.  Just because you receive recompense or are there "willingly" does not disqualify the title.  One could as well argue that slaves had willfully served their masters.  Plainly, it is what it is.
> 
> So what will be next on the agenda for Walmart?  Seasonal employment for the "poor" Amish?


It's all settled. All we need to do is appoint Weston to the post of World Emporer and he can then decide which businesses are good, which are bad, what we all deserve to make, what we can eat, etc.

Whew. Now I can go back to cleaning my garage.

----------


## Danan

> Usury laws are "price caps", O-M-G!!!  I can't even respond to that one...






At least listen to the joke Walter makes in the beginning. Of course the whole lecture is worth it too.

----------


## angelatc

> Of course there is......Price point.


Here's a pretty good article on it.  On one hand it does suck, but on the other hand it drives technology.  Would I want to buy Amy's Moms refrigerator, which is probably not really very energy efficient?  Probably not.  On the other hand, I don't want to buy a new refrigerator every 5 years, even if if it does give people jobs.

Leaving the government out of the equation, would the new efficient LED bulbs stand a chance if I didn't need to buy new light bulbs?

----------


## angelatc

> People have been posting about this aspect of Walmart (and I think a few are even pro-crony-capitalist Walmart advocates), that they force their wants upon manufacturers and if they cannot deliver, then they are eighty-sixed (i.e., Walmart is an enabler in all of this).


Good Lord.  What world do you people live in?  All businesses do that. It's called product sourcing.  Most retailers don't even tell you the opportunity to match a price or tell you that they're shopping for a new supplier.  They just stop ordering from you.

----------


## angelatc

> It's all settled. All we need to do is appoint Weston to the post of World Emporer and he can then decide which businesses are good, which are bad, what we all deserve to make, what we can eat, etc.
> 
> Whew. Now I can go back to cleaning my garage.


We'll all have to start lobbying Weston for permission to do business.  Gee, I wonder how that will work out?

----------


## angelatc

> Unless Wal Mart owns the shoe stores (Payless, etc), they show you how to compete with Wal Mart, as they move in across the street from them.


That's actually written in the business plan for Dollar Tree, too.  

Payless is buying shoes from overseas too, but they're not evil. Or something.

----------


## angelatc

> Walmart would not have to worry about, nor would any other businesses for that matter, because under a banking collapse scenario (or a "bank holiday") there would be no money circulating (e.g., demonetization) for which to be spent by the majority of the consumer base (save for those that managed to "bank run").


Bingo.

----------


## KingRobbStark

The real question should be: Is the government destroying America? 

The answer is obvious.

----------


## angelatc

> "You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Brian4Liberty again"
> 
> 
> Those liberals are at it again!! <sarcasm OFF>


Apparently, the serious answer to that is yes.  He simply made that whole story up, and yet some of us seemed to believe that it's true.

----------


## angelatc

> The real question should be: Is the government destroying America? 
> 
> The answer is obvious.


Absolutely,  but the title of this thread indicates that it's all Walmart's doing.

----------


## tod evans

> Here's a pretty good article on it.  On one hand it does suck, but on the other hand it drives technology.  Would I want to buy Amy's Moms refrigerator, which is probably not really very energy efficient?  Probably not.  On the other hand, I don't want to buy a new refrigerator every 5 years, even if if it does give people jobs.
> 
> Leaving the government out of the equation, would the new efficient LED bulbs stand a chance if I didn't need to buy new light bulbs?



Good article, thanks!

I wasn't even thinking about such things as software or clothing.....

As for the LED bulbs I think price-point is what's currently keeping folks from switching....Some manufacturer will figure out how to shave some bucks off of the finished product and people will flock to the "new technology" expecting the superior product that was introduced..........Only to be disappointed that they're getting exactly what they're paying for.... One that's "value engineered".

Kind of like the refrigerator shopper....They look at Sub-Zero and then shop at Lowes hoping for similar life expectancy..

----------


## angelatc

> Here's a pretty good article on it.  On one hand it does suck, but on the other hand it drives technology.  Would I want to buy Amy's Moms refrigerator, which is probably not really very energy efficient?  Probably not.  On the other hand, I don't want to buy a new refrigerator every 5 years, even if if it does give people jobs.
> 
> Leaving the government out of the equation, would the new efficient LED bulbs stand a chance if I didn't need to buy new light bulbs?


To answer my own question - yes, if the price if energy rose enough to justify it, I suppose.

----------


## tod evans

> The real question should be: Is the government destroying America? 
> 
> The answer is obvious.


Not only YES

Hell YES!

----------


## angelatc

> "To the best of my knowledge"
> 
> Do some research instead of assume.


I've done a little research, which made me wonder if you've actually done yours.  I don't see any manufacturers in the list of entities that Walmart owns.

Wikipedia says:


> The company does business in nine different retail formats:supercenters, food and drugs, general merchandise stores, bodegas (small markets), cash and carry stores, membership warehouse clubs, apparel stores, soft discount stores andrestaurants.[7]


  I don't see manufacturing on that list.

But I could be missing something. Please do Weston a favor and tell me what Walmart manufacturers so I won't make the same mistake again.

----------


## KingNothing

> Planned Obsolesces was put in place to manipulate each and every one of us.  It helped to develop another 'ism' -- consumerism.  Edward Bernays (nephew of Sigmund Freud) would be proud of this legacy.


You're the best troll ever, without even trying to be.  You just post absolute nonsense, constantly.  It's infuriating.

----------


## donnay

> Okay? I know absolutely nothing about "ism's" or Mr. Bernay.
> 
> I'm only basing my statements on my own observations.
> 
> I've never heard a "builder" (home/car/widget) state that they are building to fail.........However I regularly hear that they're being forced by competition to lessen their quality in order to compete on price.
> 
> I'm no expert on anything so what I've typed is worth exactly what you've paid for it...

----------


## KingNothing

> Here's a pretty good article on it.  On one hand it does suck, but on the other hand it drives technology.  Would I want to buy Amy's Moms refrigerator, which is probably not really very energy efficient?  Probably not.  On the other hand, I don't want to buy a new refrigerator every 5 years, even if if it does give people jobs.
> 
> Leaving the government out of the equation, would the new efficient LED bulbs stand a chance if I didn't need to buy new light bulbs?


Good article.  I especially liked the part about how much more durable cars are now than they were years ago, which drives home a point I made earlier in this thread.  "They just don't make them like they used to!"  Yep.  They're much better now, so the obsolescence comes from styling and bells & whistles.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> And remember when there were specialized repair shops around town for vacuums or whatever?  Now they are just expensive throwaways.  Vacuums could run 10-years easy, now 5-10 years and their finished.  Washing machines and driers, refrigerators, etc., they all last half as long as they used to and repairing them costs one-quarter the cost of replacing it new, which if you do opt for repair that will only get you another few years before it has some other problem if you’re lucky, anyway.  Largely because they have become so complex, using plastic molded pieces and fragile, lighter materials, dozens of specialized settings requiring additional components, circuit boards and touch buttons everywhere, etc.


Yep. You used to repair electronics and appliances, not throw them away. And it was a lot longer than their one year warranty before they needed a repair.




> That is due, in large part, to the choices that we make. I was living in a house that I rented from a friend which had older appliances--I fixed the dryer myself when it went off the rails. My mother had new appliances and I couldn't do a damn thing with them aside from get a tech to replace the entire circuit board on her washing machine. You lose some efficiency by using older stuff, but it's easy to work on them.
> 
> Your choice, and most have selected throw-aways. And most people also don't research appliance purchases, but buy what looks the nicest with their decor--I research almost anything that will cost more than $100.


I had to recently give up an old washer and dryer. Wished I could have kept them. I had repaired both them myself, at minimal cost. The new ones have electronics that go out, and the only option is to replace the entire electronics module, at a cost that is higher than buying a new one. Microwaves that mount over the stove now have 1 to 3 year lifespans. My mother-in-law had a repairman come out to look at her microwave, and he gave her an estimate of $600 to repair a $250 appliance. No doubt that repair would have lasted less than 2 years. I bought her a new one and installed it, and installation is another story. Even same manufacturer, same model, they changes things slightly so you can't easily replace them. Cords are in different places, mounting brackets are slightly different.

This is what happened to the American auto manufacturers. Planned obsolescence was about more than selling new product, it was about keeping the high profits repair business busy. Same with appliances now. Many people will opt for an overpriced repair (especially older folks who remember when it was worth it to repair), or they will pay for an overpriced installation . But hey, buy that extended warranty for 25%-50% of purchase price and you are covered! (For an extra year, some exclusions and pro-rating apply).

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> 


Excellent! ^^  Succinct and to the point (though not comprehensive)

----------


## Kluge

> Yep. You used to repair electronics and appliances, not throw them away. And it was a lot longer than their one year warranty before they needed a repair.
> 
> 
> 
> I had to recently give up an old washer and dryer. Wished I could have kept them. I had repaired both them myself, at minimal cost. The new ones have electronics that go out, and the only option is to replace the entire electronics module, at a cost that is higher than buying a new one. Microwaves that mount over the stove now have 1 to 3 year lifespans. My mother-in-law had a repairman come out to look at her microwave, and he gave her an estimate of $600 to repair a $250 appliance. No doubt that repair would have lasted less than 2 years. I bought her a new one and installed it, and installation is another story. Even same manufacturer, same model, they changes things slightly so you can't easily replace them. Cords are in different places, mounting brackets are slightly different.
> 
> This is what happened to the American auto manufacturers. Planned obsolescence was about more than selling new product, it was about keeping the high profits repair business busy. Same with appliances now. Many people will opt for an overpriced repair (especially older folks who remember when it was worth it to repair), or they will pay for an overpriced installation . But hey, buy that extended warranty for 25%-50% of purchase price and you are covered! (For an extra year, some exclusions and pro-rating apply).


My mother had a front-load, fancy-schmancy washing machine--I hate that thing. Top load, no electronics, and it can usually be fixed. 

And built-in stuff drives me nuts too. My mother's kitchen was updated and has all built-ins, when the microwave went South (it's built-in with the oven), I had to look for days to get someone in there who was even willing to repair it. If I hadn't found someone, the entire microwave/oven unit would have to have been replaced--which is over $2k for a decent unit & installation.

If we get the house we're currently bidding on, I'll be remodeling the kitchen in a few years, and I'm not going to make the mistake of building a kitchen that is asinine to replace anything...I wonder if they even make those rolling dishwashers anymore?

----------


## angelatc

> And remember when there were specialized repair shops around town for vacuums or whatever?  Now they are just expensive throwaways.  Vacuums could run 10-years easy, now 5-10 years and their finished.  Washing machines and driers, refrigerators, etc., they all last half as long as they used to and repairing them costs one-quarter the cost of replacing it new, which if you do opt for repair that will only get you another few years before it has some other problem if youre lucky, anyway.  Largely because they have become so complex, using plastic molded pieces and fragile, lighter materials, dozens of specialized settings requiring additional components, circuit boards and touch buttons everywhere, etc.


That's because the price of labor went up while the cost of goods went down.   Why would anyone spend $300 to replace the motor in a vacuum when they can buy a brand new vacuum for about the same price?

----------


## KingNothing

I can't believe how many Luddites there are on this board.
The past was not as good as you remember it.  The present is better than you think it is.  The future isn't as bleak as you believe.

Nearly everything lasts longer now than it used to on a per-dollar basis. Your anecdotal evidence of microwaves giving out after several years, and washing machines breaking don't really mean anything.

----------


## angelatc

> I wonder if they even make those rolling dishwashers anymore?


Yes, they do. http://www.bing.com/search?setmkt=en-US&q=portable+dishwasher

I prefer those too.  The house we're in has a built-in, and the drain pump leaks.  If it was on wheels, I could lie the thing on it's back and put in a new one.  Instead....I just wash dishes by hand now.  When I remodel my house, I'll leave a big space to put one into, but that's about it.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> I can't believe how many Luddites there are on this board.
> The past was not as good as you remember it.  The present is better than you think it is.  The future isn't as bleak as you believe.
> 
> *Nearly everything lasts longer now than it used to on a per-dollar basis*. Your anecdotal evidence of microwaves giving out after several years, and washing machines breaking don't really mean anything.


And where did you get that statistic?

The great thing about "anecdotal" evidence these days is that many sellers (like Amazon.com) allow *consumers* to give reviews.

----------


## Kluge

> I can't believe how many Luddites there are on this board.
> The past was not as good as you remember it.  The present is better than you think it is.  The future isn't as bleak as you believe.
> 
> Nearly everything lasts longer now than it used to on a per-dollar basis. Your anecdotal evidence of microwaves giving out after several years, and washing machines breaking don't really mean anything.


You've never had to pay to replace appliances, have you? I have, several times over, and the more "advanced" an appliance is, the more difficult and expensive it is to repair it.

If that makes me a luddite, so be it. I'm not suggesting that people go back to beating their clothes on rocks by a river, just that an appliance can be repaired by a reasonably competent person with reasonably inexpensive parts.

----------


## Kluge

> Yes, they do. http://www.bing.com/search?setmkt=en-US&q=portable+dishwasher
> 
> I prefer those too.  The house we're in has a built-in, and the drain pump leaks.  If it was on wheels, I could lie the thing on it's back and put in a new one.  Instead....I just wash dishes by hand now.  When I remodel my house, I'll leave a big space to put one into, but that's about it.


Thanks!

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> Yes, they do. http://www.bing.com/search?setmkt=en-US&q=portable+dishwasher
> 
> I prefer those too.  The house we're in has a built-in, and the drain pump leaks.  If it was on wheels, I could lie the thing on it's back and put in a new one.  Instead....I just wash dishes by hand now.  When I remodel my house, I'll leave a big space to put one into, but that's about it.


Lol, they sure do, my mom likes them too, recently got a new one. The built-in ones are generally on wheels to roll them into place. Usually just remove a couple of screws at the top and then they can be pulled out. When moving any thing old attached to hoses (dishwasher, clothes washer, refrigerator, etc), you always run the risk of creating a new leak. Might have to replace washers and/or hoses in the process. Some of them are extra difficult if they are in a real tight spot.

----------


## Kluge

> And where did you get that statistic?
> 
> The great thing about "anecdotal" evidence these days is that many sellers (like Amazon.com) allow *consumers* to give reviews.


And that is one of the reasons that I really like Amazon.

----------


## angelatc

> You've never had to pay to replace appliances, have you? I have, several times over, and the more "advanced" an appliance is, the more difficult and expensive it is to repair it.
> 
> If that makes me a luddite, so be it. I'm not suggesting that people go back to beating their clothes on rocks by a river, just that an appliance can be repaired by a reasonably competent person with reasonably inexpensive parts.


You and I would get along so well....

----------


## chudrockz

Well now that my garage is clean, I'm thinking about setting up and having a garage sale!

Hey Weston, do you want to stop over before we open the sale? I need to make sure that my prices are in line with what you feel would be appropriate. If I sell anything "too cheap" some poor Chinese worker's getting screwed, and if I sell anything for "too much" I'm guilty of usury! Help, please!

----------


## Kluge

> You and I would get along so well....


No doubt.

----------


## angelatc

> Well now that my garage is clean, I'm thinking about setting up and having a garage sale!
> 
> Hey Weston, do you want to stop over before we open the sale? I need to make sure that my prices are in line with what you feel would be appropriate. If I sell anything "too cheap" some poor Chinese worker's getting screwed, and if I sell anything for "too much" I'm guilty of usury! Help, please!


In the meantime, there's a new device, totally free except for the 2.9%, that will allow you to accept those Walmart (and others) branded credit cards at your garage sale.  https://squareup.com/card-reader 

Of course, because these people are providing a service for less than most others, they're actually raping America. Or something.

You need a smart phone though.  I know where you can get a good price on one.

----------


## chudrockz

My wife HAS a smart phone!! Personally, I kept my really dumb one... for now. She's pushing, I'm resisting. I once had to make a call on her smart phone. It took me ten minutes to turn the thing on, and another twenty to figure out how to call someone.

----------


## angelatc

> My wife HAS a smart phone!! Personally, I kept my really dumb one... for now. She's pushing, I'm resisting. I once had to make a call on her smart phone. It took me ten minutes to turn the thing on, and another twenty to figure out how to call someone.


Well, let her take credit cards then.  Speaking of Luddite, I don't even really have a cell phone.  My son has a really old prepaid thing that I occasionally turn on if I am somewhere that i need one, but I actually hate them with an abnormal passion.  But the market's gonna do what the market's gonna do....

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Well, let her take credit cards then.  Speaking of Luddite, I don't even really have a cell phone.  My son has a really old prepaid thing that I occasionally turn on if I am somewhere that i need one, but I actually hate them with an abnormal passion.  But the market's gonna do what the market's gonna do....


I'll use this juncture to trot out a phrase that made a lot of people here go apoplectic:

"The Tyranny of the Market".

Oh by the way, I agree.

When Sprint fails to support my 15 year old i700 next year, that'll be the end for me.

Ya'll can have your electronic dog collars.

----------


## chudrockz

We ditched our land line about two years ago and only have cell phones now. We get the monthly usage thing, and when I look at it, she uses like 1400 minutes and 8 trillion MB of "data" or whatever. I use no data and twelve minutes.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I can't believe how many Luddites there are on this board.
> The past was not as good as you remember it.  The present is better than you think it is.  The future isn't as bleak as you believe.


Who are you to question my memory?

I know this, when I was a young teenager, you could walk down a street or drive down a road without being under surveillance from 10 gazillion cameras.

I know that the cops did not use tanks and grenades on people on a regular basis.

I know that my car did not have a wireless link built into, where cabin conversations could be monitored or the vehicle shut down remotely by god knows who.

I could go on and on like this.

Point is, yes, technology has made life easier and faster and cheaper.

And maybe that's not such a good thing, over all.

Adversity makes men, prosperity makes monsters.

----------


## Ender

> wall-mart pays people .50 cents an hour in china to make cheap items to sell to us in the States. That's called slavery. Do you condone that?


No, it is not slavery in China. Most Chinese make less than $200 a month- period. But obviously, they do not live in a country where the average home is $250K. You cannot judge their pay scale by American standards.

Americans are over their heads in over-priced homes/food/vehicles/toys etc but we think that is the way it should be. The reason companies are in China in the first place is because of government over-regulation. 

This is NOT rocket science.

Get rid of the regulation and let the free market do what it does best.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> I know that the cops did not use tanks and grenades on people on a regular basis.


Really? On a regular basis?  I can't recall any examples of that happening today either.  But I do remember them shooting students at Kent State and busting protestors in the head. Every age has its good and its bad.  Depends on what you want to focus on.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> No, it is not slavery in China. Most Chinese make less than $200 a month- period. But obviously, they do not live in a country where the average home is $250K. You cannot judge their pay scale by American standards.
> 
> Americans are over their heads in over-priced homes/food/vehicles/toys etc but we think that is the way it should be. The reason companies are in China in the first place is because of government over-regulation. 
> 
> This is NOT rocket science.
> 
> Get rid of the regulation and let the free market do what it does best.


I only have one problem with that analysis.

Europe.

The "trade gap" with heavily regulated, heavily socialized, heavily taxed Europe, while not as bad as that with China, is just as eye opening.

Cheap consumer goods are mostly coming from China.

High end machine goods and scientific equipment and airplanes are coming from Europe.

So it seems we can't effectively compete in any market.

I agree with the over regulation as being one facet of this however.

AF's five point plan for igniting a economic revival the likes of which the world has never seen before:

1 - Elimination of corporate and personal income taxation.

2 - Loser pays all court and lost time fees in civil litigation.

3 - 30 percent across the board import tariff on *everything*.

4 - Remove regulatory authority from EPA. Environmental laws must be part of the USC and passed by Congress.

5 - Reverse Nixon's action breaking the Bretton Woods accords as start to abolishing the FED and returning to sound money.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Really? On a regular basis?  I can't recall any examples of that happening today either.  But I do remember them shooting students at Kent State and busting protestors in the head. Every age has its good and its bad.  Depends on what you want to focus on.


You must not read my posts then.

Do not try to tell me that heavily armed SWAT raids for routine warrant service is not happening tens of thousands of times each year, and increasing every year that goes by.

----------


## Zippyjuan

Oh yeah- I forgot that Sherrif Joe Arpaio thing where he used a tank to raid that cockfighting ring. Don't think they used hand grenades though. Trying to impress Steven Segal. http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...ghting-suspect




> Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio is normally in the news because of his tough stance on immigration. But since Monday, the sheriff has come under some criticism for an amazing show of force.
> 
> Arpaio, reports Phoenix news station KPHO, used armored vehicles and a "tank" to execute a search warrant against Jesus Llovera, who was suspected of running a cockfighting ring.
> 
> KPHO talked to Debra Ross, one of the neighbors, who was so shocked at the show of force, she called 911.
> 
> "When the tank came in and pushed the wall over and you see what's in there, and all it is, is a bunch of chickens," Ross told KPHO.
> 
> The Sheriff's Department says the use of force was appropriate, but Llovera's attorney told KPHO that the whole thing was "a stage, to help actor Steven Seagal's TV show, Lawman."
> ...

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Oh yeah- I forgot that Sherrif Joe Arpaio thing where he used a tank to raid that cockfighting ring. Don't think they used hand grenades though. Trying to impress Steven Segal. http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...ghting-suspect


Just a couple of weeks ago.

Cops in Indiana SWAT raid and grenade wrong house, over online "trash talk".

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...de+wrong+house

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> I'll use this juncture to trot out a phrase that made a lot of people here go apoplectic:
> 
> "The Tyranny of the Market".
> 
> Oh by the way, I agree.
> 
> When Sprint fails to support my 15 year old i700 next year, that'll be the end for me.
> 
> Ya'll can have your electronic dog collars.


1 word for you-Tracfone.  You only get as many minutes as you pay for (minutes are added by typing in a code from a minutes card bought and activated at the store).  No fancy $#@!.  If someone starts tracking this phone, I can just ditch it and get a new one cheap.  Prepaid cells are what the 9/11 turrists used IIRC.  Watch for TPTB try to ban these phones to "prevent terrorism".  :P

----------


## tod evans

+rep




> Who are you to question my memory?
> 
> I know this, when I was a young teenager, you could walk down a street or drive down a road without being under surveillance from 10 gazillion cameras.
> 
> I know that the cops did not use tanks and grenades on people on a regular basis.
> 
> I know that my car did not have a wireless link built into, where cabin conversations could be monitored or the vehicle shut down remotely by god knows who.
> 
> I could go on and on like this.
> ...

----------


## misean

> Point is, yes, technology has made life easier and faster and cheaper.
> 
> And maybe that's not such a good thing, over all.
> 
> Adversity makes men, prosperity makes monsters.


Not this.

----------


## Feeding the Abscess

> Wow, now that's rich.  An egocentric individual that is entirely supportive of companies such as Walmart is now labeling me a socialist.  Hint, hint:


Right. I'm defending free markets, and you're saying stuff like this:




> There are extremes on both end of the economical spectrum. Without government oversight though regulation, capitalism will become only rabid.
> 
> Legitimate capitalism can take place so long as neither governments nor entrepreneurs justify the toxic mentality of their means justifying their ends, theorizing for the greater good.





> Neither do I oppose the markets, I fully support fair-trade over free-trade; as the paradox of the latter is only free for those at the top and crushingly abusive (exploitative) for those at the bottom.





> We are a governed people, a nation of laws, for better or worse.


Stop me when I've pasted a non-socialist comment. And that's just from a couple posts you've made in response to me.

----------


## KingNothing

> Really? On a regular basis?  I can't recall any examples of that happening today either.  But I do remember them shooting students at Kent State and busting protestors in the head. Every age has its good and its bad.  Depends on what you want to focus on.


AF has a ridiculous sense of nostalgia.  In his mind the past is much rosier than it really was, and the present is much worse by comparison.

----------


## KingNothing

> Really? On a regular basis?  I can't recall any examples of that happening today either.  But I do remember them shooting students at Kent State and busting protestors in the head. Every age has its good and its bad.  Depends on what you want to focus on.


And remember when those silly people who have darker skin were attacked by dogs and blasted with water from fire hoses?

Ahh, the good ol' days!

----------


## KingNothing

> Adversity makes men, prosperity makes monsters.



I'd rather my adversity be adequately dealing with the abundance and comfort brought on by technological advances than the lower standard of living that basically all of humanity had 50 years ago.

----------


## tod evans

> AF has a ridiculous sense of nostalgia.  In his mind the past is much rosier than it really was, and the present is much worse by comparison.


Paint me with the same brush.

I suppose it's good for you that you're happy with the way society is going.

Could you please tell me what exactly brought you to believe in Ron Paul?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Paint me with the same brush.
> 
> I suppose it's good for you that you're happy with the way society is going.
> 
> *Could you please tell me what exactly brought you to believe in Ron Paul*?


That's my first thought as well.

If everything is hunky dory, then what's the point?

Vote Obamney and stay the course big guy!

----------


## Anti Federalist

> And remember when those silly people who have darker skin were attacked by dogs and blasted with water from fire hoses?
> 
> Ahh, the good ol' days!


And putting people with dark skin in prison by the millions is better, how, exactly?

----------


## tod evans

> And remember when those silly people who have darker skin were attacked by dogs and blasted with water from fire hoses?
> 
> Ahh, the good ol' days!


Instead now we blow them up from a 'puter console 1/2 a world away.

Oh........tazing is another one of those wonderful new technological marvels...right up there with SWAT teams (no such thing when I was young)...

But wait.......there's a big difference; In the '60's the "dark skinned" people had curly hair......now it's straight.

----------


## K466

Whoa, I'm late returning, probably too late, but here goes:




> Let me catch you up by giving you the tl;dr version.
> 
>   Wal-mart has *NOTHING* to do with free trade. There is no free trade in international affairs when a government is a fascist one.


I know, I know, the lack of free trade here and around the world is appalling...

...but that has nothing to do with Wal-Mart. It's not a strike against Wal-mart, the only problem with Wal-Mart is whatever statism (i.e. corporatism) they pursue. Even then, it's the government's fault for subsidizing corporations in the first place.




> Free trade is great.  Corporatism is not free trade.  
> 
> How can we be claiming free trade, until the government regulations are removed for everyone?


We must never favor more restrictions on trade. I get the sense this sentence leads towards defending some statism... hope I'm wrong.




> I am rather certain that Ron Paul does NOT support any practices whatsoever involving slave-labor and neither is any of that what Austrian economics about.  If you believe that either the former and/or the latter are actually the case, then you are ill-informed and sadly mistaken.
> 
> Individuals do not realize their own liberty and freedom by using the backs of others as their springboard to achieving such a means to an end.  This profound logic was written into our own Declaration of Independence.


OMG. For starters...

----------


## Weston White

> Right. I'm defending free markets, and you're saying stuff like this:
> 
> ...
> 
> Stop me when I've pasted a non-socialist comment. And that's just from a couple posts you've made in response to me.


Government regulation is not socialism, at least when it has legitimate purposes (such as to prevent the antagonism of anarchists).  Perhaps you should take a few hours to compile and then actually comprehend what I had written instead of passing your false judgment ipso facto.  You know take a few moments to breath and take it all in.

----------


## phill4paul

> I know, I know, the lack of free trade here and around the world is appalling...
> 
> ...*but that has nothing to do with Wal-Mart*. It's not a strike against Wal-mart, *the only problem with Wal-Mart is whatever statism (i.e. corporatism) they pursue*. Even then, it's the government's fault for subsidizing corporations in the first place.


 You are honestly going to tell me that Wal-Mart has no influence in faux-trade deals? And yes, that corporatism, statism...*fascism* is very much what a major business is about.

  The long and the short of it...

  I don't support corporations that through their vested interest buy political favour. 

  I will take the time to avoid them and find an alternative. EVEN if it costs me more, causes me to go out of my way an makes some think I'm an idiot because to me...convenience ain't everything.

----------


## satchelmcqueen

im glad you set me straight bud. if it werent for your reply i would have killed myself. find a better job? i have and i love it. i know that wally world is the worst of the worst as far as the way they treat their employees. yes they are free to better their company bottom line, but treating people like slaves is just assholish and so wrong and backwards as to the image they put out to the public. wink!


> Some of you people
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like a $#@!ty place to work.  Welcome to capitalism bud.  The people who manage Walmart are free to try and make it as efficient as possible.  They aren't there to make your like pleasurable because they know that you aren't special.  There is a line a mile long behind you of people who can do your job.  If you don't like it, find a better place to work or improve your ability to produce.
> 
> Look in a libertarian society Walmart would probably treat they're employees better because there will be more competition for good employess.  What Walmart wouldn't do is stop buying from the producer that produces the cheapest stuff, which probably won't be the United States.

----------


## Weston White

> That's because the price of labor went up while the cost of goods went down.   Why would anyone spend $300 to replace the motor in a vacuum when they can buy a brand new vacuum for about the same price?


Not true, the only cost of goods that have gone down are the cost of _cheap_ goods (with some exception given to computers but that has more to do with advancements in core-processor and chip manufacturing, but for high end computers they costs are still very high, e.g., a top of the line computer can easily run $5,000-$12,000, while the cheaper $500 "e-machines" are really just using outdated technology repackaged as a new product line).  The cost of goods have skyrocketed, vacuums did not used to cost up to $500; televisions $5,000; kitchen baking mixers $300; $alarm clocks $100; bicycles $400; shoes $70; luggage sets $350; automobiles $25,000; basic cable $50; basic phone service $45; etc.; as well costs of milk, eggs, meat, bread, etc. have also significantly increased.

Pointedly, the wages of the menial laborer, in America have not kept aligned with the dragging inflation that has been taking place since the ramped scandals of 2001 and onward had broken.

----------


## PierzStyx

> Not true, the only cost of goods that have gone down are the cost of _cheap_ goods (with some exception given to computers but that has more to do with advancements in core-processor and chip manufacturing, but for high end computers they costs are still very high, e.g., a top of the line computer can easily run $5,000-$12,000, while the cheaper $500 "e-machines" are really just using outdated technology repackaged as a new product line).  The cost of goods have skyrocketed, vacuums did not used to cost up to $500; televisions $5,000; kitchen baking mixers $300; $alarm clocks $100; bicycles $400; shoes $70; luggage sets $350; automobiles $25,000; basic cable $50; basic phone service $45; etc.; as well costs of milk, eggs, meat, bread, etc. have also significantly increased.
> 
> Pointedly, the wages of the menial laborer, in America have not kept aligned with the dragging inflation that has been taking place since the ramped scandals of 2001 and onward had broken.



Your info is _so_ selective. I can get everyone of those things for under $50 bucks. and there have *always* been expensive versions of them. 


And again the problem of wages, and decreasing buying value, has to do with the bad monetary policies of the Federal Reserve devaluing each dollar bill. This causes the value of consumer dollars to drop while the cost of production rose, both of which lead to increase in price to compensate cost to make. Here again the issue is teh Federal Reserve not Wal-Mart or corporations.

----------


## PierzStyx

> im glad you set me straight bud. if it werent for your reply i would have killed myself. find a better job? i have and i love it. i know that wally world is the worst of the worst as far as the way they treat their employees. yes they are free to better their company bottom line, but treating people like slaves is just assholish and so wrong and backwards as to the image they put out to the public. wink!



Yes because slavery is you agreeing to a wage and hours, getting paid as promised, and being able to leave when you want. *That* is slavery.

Don't like it, don't work there. As you've seen you can find better work if you don't like it. 


And in my experience Sears is a worse place than Wal-Mart to work.

----------


## PierzStyx

> Government regulation is not socialism, at least when it has legitimate purposes (such as to prevent the antagonism of anarchists).  Perhaps you should take a few hours to compile and then actually comprehend what I had written instead of passing your false judgment ipso facto.  You know take a few moments to breath and take it all in.



To take _what_ in? I've read everything you've written so far. and its meaningless, dialectic garbage. You have no facts, only ideological rhetoric.

----------


## Weston White

> At least listen to the joke Walter makes in the beginning. Of course the whole lecture is worth it too.


*BUSINESS SCHOOL STUDENT:* How far has your Herfindahl Index declined since the merger?
*MICHAEL SCOTT:* Nice try.  How's your Polack-says-what Index?
*BUSINESS SCHOOL STUDENT:* What?
*MICHAEL SCOTT:* Thanks, Kowalski.

-The Office

----------


## PierzStyx

> Adversity makes men, prosperity makes monsters.



Morality makes men. Adversity is an easy way to enforce morality. But prosperity does not make monsters. The absence of morality makes man-children. Teach people good doctrine and they will govern themselves right.

----------


## Weston White

> To take _what_ in? I've read everything you've written so far. and its meaningless, dialectic garbage. You have no facts, only ideological rhetoric.


Neither was that directed at you.  As to you, you had passed being hopeless about fifteen pages back (give or take a few pages), i.e., for some merely "reading" is never enough, in your case, you surpass that notion.

----------


## PierzStyx

> I'll use this juncture to trot out a phrase that made a lot of people here go apoplectic:
> 
> "The Tyranny of the Market".
> 
> Oh by the way, I agree.
> 
> When Sprint fails to support my 15 year old i700 next year, that'll be the end for me.
> 
> Ya'll can have your electronic dog collars.


And you think that makes you untraceable? You should know better than that. In any situation where you're being chased by the cops first thing you always do is ditch your cell phone. You can be traced by number any time you use it and not just by microchip, even with your 15 year old brick.

----------


## awake

Sorry; Walmart is hurting no one, however, your government is hurting everybody. But in light of that fact the people who serve you with cheaper and better goods are in need of attacking...like a cat chasing a laser pointer, how easily we get led astray.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> And you think that makes you untraceable? You should know better than that. In any situation where you're being chased by the cops first thing you always do is ditch your cell phone. You can be traced by number any time you use it and not just by microchip, even with your 15 year old brick.


No, of course it doesn't.

But, it adds one more step of difficulty, especially without an embedded GPS system.

The two places I mainly use it, are in single tower service areas. (I know, I've checked them out.)

Now, that means, with an active signal carrier or a "pingback" you *could* track an LOP and get a bearing.

But, lacking another tower to get a second LOP, all you get is a bearing line, with no idea where the unit is on that bearing line.

----------


## Ender

> Government regulation is not socialism, at least when it has legitimate purposes (such as to prevent the antagonism of anarchists).  Perhaps you should take a few hours to compile and then actually comprehend what I had written instead of passing your false judgment ipso facto.  You know take a few moments to breath and take it all in.


Wow.

THAT is the biggest bit of rhetoric know-nothing garbage comment I have ever read. And to think it is even on a RP forum.

So, government regulation is NOT socialism if it can prevent the evil antagonism of anarchists?

*Do you have ANY idea what you are talking about?*

If you are an actual Constitutionalist, then you would know that gov regulation is the antithesis to real freedom and real capitalism.

Do YOU know what capitalism is? Do YOU know what anarchy is? 

Do you have a clue about the Fed Reserve? Fractional banking? What money is?

I think not.

----------


## Weston White

> Morality makes men. Adversity is an easy way to enforce morality. But prosperity does not make monsters. The absence of morality makes man-children.


Now would this be the same morality that you so readily find contemptuous within your so-called “free-markets”?  Your kind elicits such nonsensical dogma.





> Teach people good doctrine and they will govern themselves right.


Sure, sure.  Let me take a whack at this one, so this is accomplished by say, orchestrating the mass outsourcing of a gigantic portion of America’s manufacturing jobs across vast oceans to be performed by foreigners under slave conditions and with slave wages; and to spin in hyperbole by pointing all of the blame towards those overseas slave-laborers so as to make it appear that they volunteered for all of this and such could only be a benefit to them anyway so they should all be down on their knees thanking such “righteous” people?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> 1 word for you-Tracfone.  You only get as many minutes as you pay for (minutes are added by typing in a code from a minutes card bought and activated at the store).  No fancy $#@!.  If someone starts tracking this phone, I can just ditch it and get a new one cheap.  Prepaid cells are what the 9/11 turrists used IIRC.  *Watch for TPTB try to ban these phones to "prevent terrorism"*.  :P


They already tried in 2010.

I'll post a link to a new thread.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...f-Off-the-Grid

----------


## donnay

> You're the best troll ever, without even trying to be.  You just post absolute nonsense, constantly.  It's infuriating.


Good if it infuriates you, then I am doing a good job!

----------


## Weston White

> Wow.
> 
> THAT is the biggest bit of rhetoric know-nothing garbage comment I have ever read. And to think it is even on a RP forum.
> 
> So, government regulation is NOT socialism if it can prevent the evil antagonism of anarchists?
> 
> *Do you have ANY idea what you are talking about?*
> 
> If you are an actual Constitutionalist, then you would know that gov regulation is the antithesis to real freedom and real capitalism.
> ...


Wow, the biggest and it was only the size of a sentence?  Well if I didn’t know before, I do know now, and you can rest assured that you are still incorrect; both ethically and factually.  Thank you for that.

However, our Constitution grants certain powers to our form of government and those powers were granted to serve specific purposes within our society.

Now, as to your obtuseness concerning anarchy, I think John Adams summed that subject up the best -and regardless if you feel that I am a know nothing (or not), you leave yourself only as a fool, if you believe that neither did he:




> “_[D]emocracy will soon degenerate into an anarchy, such an anarchy that every man will do what is right in his own eyes and no man's life or property or reputation or liberty will be secure, and every one of these will soon mould itself into a system of subordination of all the moral virtues and intellectual abilities, all the powers of wealth, beauty, wit and science, to the wanton pleasures, the capricious will, and the execrable cruelty of one or a very few._”



In closing, a short passage from _The Law of Nations_:




> “_The general law of that society is, that each individual should do for the others every thing which their necessities require, and which he can perform without neglecting the duty that he owes to himself:_”

----------


## Ender

> Wow, the biggest and it was only the size of a sentence?  Well if I didnt know before, I do know now, and you can rest assured that you are still incorrect; both ethically and factually.  Thank you for that.
> 
> However, our Constitution grants certain powers to our form of government and those powers were granted to serve specific purposes within our society.
> 
> Now, as to your obtuseness concerning anarchy, I think John Adams summed that subject up the best -and regardless if you feel that I am a know nothing (or not), you leave yourself only as a fool, if you believe that neither did he:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In closing, a short passage from _The Law of Nations_:


Ooohh, scary anarchy! As for you're own obtuseness:




> "Anarchy" is an expression of social behavior that reflects the individualized nature of life. Only as living beings are free to pursue their particular interests in the unique circumstances in which they find themselves, can conditions for the well-being of all be attained. Anarchy presumes decentralized and cooperative systems that serve the mutual interests of the individuals comprising them, without the systems ever becoming their own reasons for being. It is this thinking, and the practices that result therefrom, that is alone responsible for whatever peace and order exists in society.
> 
> Political thinking, by contrast, presumes the supremacy of the systems (i.e., the state) and reduces individuals to the status of resources for the accomplishment of their ends. Such systems are grounded in the mass-minded conditioning and behavior that has produced the deadly wars, economic dislocations, genocides, and police-state oppressions that comprise the essence of political history.
> 
> Men and women need nothing so much right now as to rediscover and reenergize their own souls. They will never be able to accomplish such purposes in the dehumanizing and dispirited state systems that insist upon controlling their lives and property. In the sentiments underlying anarchistic thinking, men and women may be able to find the individualized sense of being and self-direction that they long ago abandoned in marbled halls and citadels.
> 
> http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer60.html


Hate to shock you but the most perfect document of these united States of America is, and was, the Declaration. Protecting one's unalienable rights is understanding that these are prime- this is the real meaning of anarchy, not out-of-control individuals running amok.

Still, you are a Statist trying to act like a Constitutionalist- doesn't work.

----------


## PierzStyx

> Now would this be the same morality that you so readily find contemptuous within your so-called “free-markets”?  Your kind elicits such nonsensical dogma.
> 
> Sure, sure.  Let me take a whack at this one, so this is accomplished by say, orchestrating the mass outsourcing of a gigantic portion of America’s manufacturing jobs across vast oceans to be performed by foreigners under slave conditions and with slave wages; and to spin in hyperbole by pointing all of the blame towards those overseas slave-laborers so as to make it appear that they volunteered for all of this and such could only be a benefit to them anyway so they should all be down on their knees thanking such “righteous” people?


1. The Free Market is the most humane system in the world. It produces the most jobs at the best livable wages for the most people and makes it easy for others to voluntarily care for another. Government forcing you "to be good" with a gun is not good.

2. Again your precious "government regulation" is what produces the very problems you rail against. You want to get rid of outsourcing, get rid of government regulations that make companies want to outsource. Make it _worth_ it not to outsource. And morality has nothing to do with how much you get paid. Paying someone less for a job is not immoral. And actually they do volunteer. Once more they mutually agree to a wage and have every power to leave or not. That they do not shows that the conditions they are in in these places are better than any they could get anywhere else.

----------


## PierzStyx

> No, of course it doesn't.
> 
> But, it adds one more step of difficulty, especially without an embedded GPS system.
> 
> The two places I mainly use it, are in single tower service areas. (I know, I've checked them out.)
> 
> Now, that means, with an active signal carrier or a "pingback" you *could* track an LOP and get a bearing.
> 
> But, lacking another tower to get a second LOP, all you get is a bearing line, with no idea where the unit is on that bearing line.


I salute your efforts. Still, I would ditch it just as much as I would a smartphone.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I salute your efforts. Still, I would ditch it just as much as I would a smartphone.


No doubt at all, brother.

Believe me, if TSHTF, I will kill that phone with fire.

----------


## phill4paul

> No doubt at all, brother.
> 
> Believe me, if TSHTF, I will kill that phone with fire.


  Or leave it on an outgoing bus or train...............

----------


## Weston White

> Ooohh, scary anarchy! As for you're own obtuseness:
> 
> Hate to shock you but the most perfect document of these united States of America is, and was, the Declaration. Protecting one's unalienable rights is understanding that these are prime- this is the real meaning of anarchy, not out-of-control individuals running amok.
> 
> Still, you are a Statist trying to act like a Constitutionalist- doesn't work.


You are leaving the concept of contextualization out of the equation.  And without public laws, without necessary and just regulation, out-of-control individuals running amok is exactly what is going to occur.  And the fact that American businesses are now fleecing the people of other nations is demonstrative of that.

Anarchism requires that all individuals remain in utter agreement, while holding identical understandings or points of view at all times as to their varying interests; hence, it is purely a fallacy.

Effectively, we have first world individuals extorting third world individuals, while subsequently leveraging their first world status towards second world status in the process.

Effectively, we have individuals saying we want to increase our bottom-lines, so we are going to move our operations to nation-X in order to accomplish that goal, while there, we will be able to get away with paying only a fraction to those workers, while working them one-and-one-half longer then previously.  This is nothing more than an orchestration of exploitation.

----------


## Weston White

> 1. The Free Market is the most humane system in the world. It produces the most jobs at the best livable wages for the most people and makes it easy for others to voluntarily care for another. Government forcing you "to be good" with a gun is not good.
> 
> 2. Again your precious "government regulation" is what produces the very problems you rail against. You want to get rid of outsourcing, get rid of government regulations that make companies want to outsource. Make it _worth_ it not to outsource. And morality has nothing to do with how much you get paid. Paying someone less for a job is not immoral. And actually they do volunteer. Once more they mutually agree to a wage and have every power to leave or not. That they do not shows that the conditions they are in in these places are better than any they could get anywhere else.


What are you talking about now?  The majority of those types of jobs were already cheap paying jobs to begin with.  What do you want the government to repeal the minimum wage and fulltime work standards in America?

Do you believe that a companys employees are not entitled to contract for individual benefits and perks that rather such privileges should only belong to corporate officers and executives?  You seem to dismiss the underlying agenda of internationalism, such being the next step in realizing the destruction of our national sovereignty and devising global hegemony.  If we keep down this pathway, the United States of America will eventually exist as just one of many global regional zones, and its people as but a cog for an international federation.

----------


## chudrockz

> What are you talking about now?  The majority of those types of jobs were already cheap paying jobs to begin with.  What do you want the government to repeal the minimum wage and fulltime work standards in America?
> 
> Do you believe that a company’s employees are not entitled to contract for individual benefits and perks that rather such privileges should only belong to corporate officers and executives?  You seem to dismiss the underlying agenda of internationalism, such being the next step in realizing the destruction of our national sovereignty and devising global hegemony.  If we keep down this pathway, the United States of America will eventually exist as just one of many global regional zones, and its people as but a cog for an international federation.


And there we have it. I think you'll easily find that 95% or more on the RON PAUL forums would LOVE to "repeal the minimum wage and full time work standards in America."  Ron Paul himself wants to do this. It's fine to disagree with him on that, but just realize which forum you're on here.

----------


## chudrockz

http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/20...p-poor-people/

----------


## Weston White

> And there we have it. I think you'll easily find that 95% or more on the RON PAUL forums would LOVE to "repeal the minimum wage and full time work standards in America."  Ron Paul himself wants to do this. It's fine to disagree with him on that, but just realize which forum you're on here.


Alright, however that still avoids the question.  Additionally, such repeals would only work as inferred if virtually all respective individual and businesses taxes were eliminated; such would otherwise be ineffective under our present situation. As it stands now an individual can hardly sustain themselves.  Without the protection of public law they would be absolutely crushed.

----------


## chudrockz

> Alright, however that still avoids the question.  Additionally, such repeals would only work as inferred if virtually all respective individual and businesses taxes were eliminated; such would otherwise be ineffective under our present situation. As it stands now an individual can hardly sustain themselves.  Without the protection of public law they would be absolutely crushed.


Right. Because we don't _already have_ 56,000,000,000,000 "public laws" in this country right NOW that are ALREADY crushing people by the millions.

----------


## tod evans

> . As it stands now an individual can hardly sustain themselves.  Without the protection of public law they would be absolutely crushed.


With out the oppression of too many laws and way too big of a government we might do better.

More government is never the answer.

----------


## Weston White

> No, she's saying that an employee who does not feel that his wage is an adequate compensation for his work will not continue to work there.
> 
> And that's totally contradicting your position. The fact that Wallmart has many employees agreeing to work for the wage they offer proves that those workers prefer their current status over any available alternative. That is in no way comparable with slavery. The same thing is true with Chinese workers.
> 
> Your protectionist vision could (in a very doubtful best-case-scenario for you) be a small net gain for some American low-skilled workers (who would earn a few bucks more) on the expense of all the American workers who would be unemployed, all the American consumers (higher prices), the American industry that gets a comperative advantage due to free trade with cheap-labor markets and of all Chinese low-skilled workers whose wages would obviously go *down* in such a scenario. To say that American demand for Chinese products "enslaves" Chinese workers is completely wrong. As described above these workers wouldn't work there if they had better alternatives. They are *not* (in 99.9999% of all cases) physically forced to work there. Very often the local populace fights for a chance to work in a sweatshop because it's better than very hard physical agricultural labor on barren land and without adequate mechanical tools.
> 
> Everyone with some knowledge in foreign trade theory knows that overall productivity necessarily has to go up in a completely free market. The bigger the disparity the higher the advantage of global free trade. The same division of labor that enables you to specialize in your comperative advantage between you and your neighbour, people in different towns, counties and states creates higher productivity on a global scale too.


You are really just debating the aspirations on the one hand and the antecedents on the other, i.e., effectively justifying that the means truly justifies the ends, while excusing the intertwining ethical dilemma.

----------


## Weston White

> Of course there is......Price point.
> 
> I'm well versed in woodworking machinery and for over 30 years I've watched first Japan and now China and India focus on an existing product, copy it's basic overall design and then back into a price point.
> 
> Hitting that price point requires making use of existing manufacturing and materials. The "lowest bidder" is generally low for a reason.


No, they could be found civilly liable, e.g., class action, for intentionally manufacturing inferior products.  Moreover, I would think it would actually cost more and expend more time to mix and cast resin over just cold pressing tin or aluminum.  And again, it is inexcusable to use plastics for support pieces that will be under stress, especially when it is known its properties will break down within a short period of time resulting in certain failure and thus requiring immediate replacement (because nobody is going to dare drive a LS around for very long with a window that will not stay up, for example).

----------


## tod evans

> No, they could be found civilly liable, e.g., class action, for intentionally manufacturing inferior products.  Moreover, I would think it would actually cost more and expend more time to mix and cast resin over just cold pressing tin or aluminum.  And again, it is inexcusable to use plastics for support pieces that will be under stress, especially when it is known its properties will break down within a short period of time resulting in certain failure and thus requiring immediate replacement (because nobody is going to dare dive a LS around for very long with a window that will not stay up, for example).


Civil liability must show damages.......you voluntarily bought low priced goods.

Try to hold any manufacturer of anything liable when you can't show "actual" damages.

You want a better product pay for it.........Don't whine about what the masses are willing to pay for.

----------


## Weston White

> Good Lord.  What world do you people live in?  All businesses do that. It's called product sourcing.  Most retailers don't even tell you the opportunity to match a price or tell you that they're shopping for a new supplier.  They just stop ordering from you.


No, I don't think that product sourcing entails (or at least was never intended to) issuing a list of "or else" threats to manufacturers.  And Walmart provides much to large of a market for manufacturers to simply tell Walmart to "go get bent".

----------


## Weston White

> The real question should be: Is the government destroying America? 
> 
> The answer is obvious.


Which it would be wholly incapable of doing without the full cooperation of conglomerations and the like.

----------


## Weston White

> I've done a little research, which made me wonder if you've actually done yours.  I don't see any manufacturers in the list of entities that Walmart owns.
> 
> Wikipedia says:  I don't see manufacturing on that list.
> 
> But I could be missing something. Please do Weston a favor and tell me what Walmart manufacturers so I won't make the same mistake again.


Why bothering manufacturing, when they can otherwise effectively control the market?  If you cannot get (and keep) your products on the shelves at Walmart, the likelihood that your business will fail rises dramatically.  To use an analogy from "The Office", the "big-boxes", i.e., OfficeMax, Office Depot, and Staples are driving the vastly smaller and independent paper and office suppliers straight out of business.

----------


## Weston White

> I can't believe how many Luddites there are on this board.
> The past was not as good as you remember it.  The present is better than you think it is.  The future isn't as bleak as you believe.
> 
> Nearly everything lasts longer now than it used to on a per-dollar basis. Your anecdotal evidence of microwaves giving out after several years, and washing machines breaking don't really mean anything.


What in the hell does the mass outsourcing of employment overseas to be accomplished in a nearly identical fashion, albeit under slave-conditions, have to do with "Luddites"?

----------


## Weston White

> AF's five point plan for igniting a economic revival the likes of which the world has never seen before:


What about the revival of a Glass-Steagall type act and/or repeal of all "financial reform" laws?

----------


## Weston White

> Just a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> Cops in Indiana SWAT raid and grenade wrong house, over online "trash talk".
> 
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...de+wrong+house


Also (there are literally thousands of these sorts of articles): 

 9 Horrifying Botched Police Raids
Renton homeowner wants to know why damage from SWAT raid hasnt been paid for
 What Killed Aiyana Stanley-Jones?
Family has to pay for SWAT damage
Local media: SWAT team busts into house over student loan default 
Auburn family wants city to pay for damages caused by SWAT team
Stockton Homeowner Wants Police To Fix Trashed House
D.C. Police Raid Wrong Home, City Refuses to Pay for Damage

----------


## Weston White

> OMG. For starters...


That video is largely propagandist; reeking with emotional appeals.

1.  Those scenarios are all find and dandy so long as external influences are not brought in to perpetuate those inferior conditions and expectations.

2.  By raising your personal objection and standing your moral ground, you are not merely “doing nothing”, in fact you are calling upon, better still, you are riving pressure upon, those with the controlling interest to meet your demands; otherwise they lose your “valued” business, and once enough people join your voice they will be compelled to either change their thankless ways or close their doors -and then perhaps they might be left only to endure a sweatshop themselves.

3.  If a manufacturer cannot survive (what in all honesty is) a negligible increase in their operating expenses they are, in a matter of time, on their way out anyways, and consequently the employment of those employed is to be short lived.

4.  That video’s rhetoric entirely misses the realization of the collective outsourcing of American jobs; including the bigger picture that lies beneath the clouded surface.

----------


## Weston White

> Civil liability must show damages.......you voluntarily bought low priced goods.
> 
> Try to hold any manufacturer of anything liable when you can't show "actual" damages.
> 
> You want a better product pay for it.........Don't whine about what the masses are willing to pay for.


The damages are the costs and time involved in replacing the malfunctioning/broken part and anything else that is proximate to the causation.

----------


## Weston White

> With out the oppression of too many laws and way too big of a government we might do better.
> 
> More government is never the answer.


Without justice there is no liberty; and ultimately, justice is only achievable though civil actions or criminal prosecution. While "more government" may not necessarily be "the answer", a just and prudent government is so.

----------


## The Free Hornet

> its not the China factor; every business , large or small, sells products from China.  its that Wal-Mart is subsidized by the government in that their employees are so low paid they could not survive without government handouts (Food stamps, medicaid)


First, it is not the responsibility of Wal*Mart to ensure that an entry-level job that requires little or no advanced education pay enough to support a family of four (or three or one).  Time was, nobody questioned whether the bag or stock boy made enough to take care of his family.  The assumption was that this was - in general - supplemental income for relatively menial labor.  Family was taking care of him!

Second, in your scenario, it is not Wal*Mart that is subsidized so much but the medical and food industries.

Where is the medicaid money going?:



I think our food-dollar as percent of GDP is more consistent, but I strongly suspect the _quality_ is going down and more money is going to corn growers.  But I will reiterate, it may be that the food stamps subsidizing food industry more than Wal*Mart (except to the large extent it is part of that food industry).

There may be a lot not to like about Wal*Mart.  E.g., their parking lot seems far more littered than adjacent lots (Target, Sam's (a sister co or subsidiary to Wal*Mart but different clients), etc.).  In some ways, Wal*Mart is a reflection of its customers and changes in manufacturing.  I highly doubt they give a damn where their product is made so long as it meets their requirements.  Their bread is buttered by being a low cost, streamlined retailer.  It matters less where the goods come from.

What evil incarnate caused K-Mart or Sears to collapse despite early marketshare advantages?  Don't know, don't care.  Other retailers have to step up their game.

Another thing to like about Wal*Mart: no club card, fewer coupon games/price fluctuations, and open 24-7 (my work hours are odd and I will sooner buy online than schedule my life around a store's hours).  The traditional grocer can match some of Wal*Mart's prices some of the time.  Where they fail is being well priced all of the time for most groceries.  I do far more brand switching at the grocerery to chase low prices than I do at Wal*Mart.  Often, the grocer is lower (brand/time dependent).

----------


## angelatc

> Or leave it on an outgoing bus or train...............


Strap it on a stray dog.

----------


## angelatc

> 2. Again your precious "government regulation" is what produces the very problems you rail against. You want to get rid of outsourcing.....


Point of Order, my friend.  He wants to get rid of offshoring, not outsourcing.   Meaning that I don't think he cares if ADP does Walmart's payroll, as long as they're not doing it in India.

This cracks me up when I see one of the Demcrats anti-Romney commercials, btw.  Idiots don't even know enough about business to use the right terms.

----------


## tod evans

> The damages are the costs and time involved in replacing the malfunctioning/broken part and anything else that is proximate to the causation.


You fail to address that the true causation of the problem was your choice to buy a "value engineered" product.

Following this logic baseball manufacturers would be liable for shattered windows.

If you wish to own a problem free car buy a Rolls, build it yourself or buy from a local shop who is willing to stand behind it.

There are companies making money hand over fist offering warranties on used cars and depending on what policy you buy it's possible to get every squeak and rattle addressed for the life of the policy.

Like I said......You chose to buy a product designed to meet a price-point, don't whine about getting what you paid for.

----------


## tod evans

> Without justice there is no liberty; and ultimately, justice is only achievable though civil actions or criminal prosecution. While "more government" may not necessarily be "the answer", a just and prudent government is so.


We have neither justice or prudence in our current "government".

It's time to flush Washington and refill the bowl with fresh water.

----------


## Feeding the Abscess

> We have neither justice or prudence in our current "government".
> 
> It's time to flush Washington and refill the bowl with fresh water.


Repeal and replace... _with nothing_

----------


## AME3

I'll buy...if I can join you guys. I feel the same way about it you do, guess Im a...terofas?.


> You're still a terrorist.  I'm a fascist.
> 
> Let's do lunch!

----------


## Nickels

> #1 The average U.S. family now spends more than $4000 a year at Wal-Mart.


How much do you want them to spend? 




> #2 In 2010, Wal-Mart had revenues of 421 billion dollars.  That amount was greater than the GDP of 170 different countries including Norway, Venezuela and the United Arab Emirates.
> 
> #3 If Wal-Mart was a nation, it would have the 23rd largest GDP in the world.


So it's wrong to be rich, is that it?




> #4 Wal-Mart now sells more groceries than anyone else in America does.  In the United States today, one out of every four grocery dollars is spent at Wal-Mart.


1/4 does sound like a lot, so what portion is fair? 1/10? 1/20?




> #5 Amazingly, 100 million customers shop at Wal-Mart every single week.


How many in a year? What's wrong with this?




> #6 Wal-Mart has opened more than 1,100 “supercenters” since 2005 alone.
> 
> #7 Today, Wal-Mart has more than 2 million employees.


Oh, so it's wrong to have 2 million employees? they should have less?




> #8 If Wal-Mart was an army, it would be the second largest military on the planet behind China.
> 
> #9 Wal-Mart is the largest employer in 25 different U.S. states.


Ok, I think I get it now, it's wrong to have money, it's wrong to serve too many customers, and it's wrong to employ too many people.




> #10 According to the Economic Policy Institute, trade between Wal-Mart and China resulted in the loss of 133,000 manufacturing jobs in the United States between 2001 and 2006.


Wait, I thought we just said it's wrong to employ too many people, now somebody's complaining that it causes job loss???




> #11 The CEO of Wal-Mart makes more in a single hour than a full-time Wal-Mart associate makes in an entire year.


That is true of almost any CEO of a national retailer company




> #12 Tens of thousands of Wal-Mart employees and their children are enrolled in Medicaid and are dependent on the government for healthcare.


It's Walmart's fault that the government is giving free money or poor people can't find a better job?




> #13 Between 2001 and 2007, the value of products that Wal-Mart imported from China grew from $9 billion to $27 billion.


What's wrong with that?




> #14 Sadly, about 85 percent of all the products sold at Wal-Mart are made outside of the United States.
> 
> #15 It is being reported that about 80 percent of all Wal-Mart suppliers are in China at this point.
> 
> #16 Amazingly, 96 percent of all Americans now live within 20 miles of a Wal-Mart.


So 100% live within 50 miles? So it's wrong that WalMart has invested money to make people's lives more convenient? Or is it wrong that the masses are too stupid or cheap to choose what they want?




> #17 The number of “independent retailers” in the United States declined by 60,000 between 1992 and 2007.


Why pick the year 1992 as starting point? Why not 1999 or 2001?




> #18 According to the Center for Responsive Politics, Wal-Mart spent 7.8 million dollars on political lobbying during 2011.  That number does not even include campaign contributions.


Would be interesting to see what policies they are lobbying for, want to bet many are for lower taxes and less government regulations?




> #19 Today, Wal-Mart has five times the sales of the second largest U.S. retailer (Costco).
> 
> #20 The combined net worth of six members of the Walton family is roughly equal to the combined net worth of the poorest 30 percent of all Americans.


Basically it's a sin to be rich.




> All over the country, independent retailers are going out of business because they cannot compete with Wal-Mart and their super cheap Chinese products.


Why is that a bad thing? Ever heard of "broken window fallacy"?




> Often communities will give Wal-Mart huge tax breaks just to move in to their areas.  But what many communities don’t take into account is that the introduction of a Wal-Mart is often absolutely devastating to small businesses….


Communities are consumers, so they welcome walmart to destroy their own businesses, what exactly is wrong with that?




> A study of small and rural towns in Iowa showed lost sales for local businesses ranging from -17.2% in small towns to -61.4% in rural areas, amounting to a total dollar loss of $2.46 BILLION over a 13-year period.
> 
> When we buy stuff made by people working for slave labor wages in China, we destroy good paying American jobs and we make America poorer.  This is a point that I have tried to make over and over.


Destroying jobs does not make us poor (and making jobs does not make us rich). Jobs for jobs sake is ridiculous and nothing is stopping Americans from demanding lower wages to stay competitive. Even though many like to complain that "minimum wage" is imposed on government against the people, the fact is, it's government plus workers that impose it on the employer. If workers or consumers demanded lower wages, government would be more than happy to lower or eliminate it. 





> Wal-Mart often tells one thing to the public and then does another thing in private.  Sadly, the truth is that Wal-Mart does not care about U.S. manufacturing jobs.


Who does and who should care about manufacturing jobs?




> Wal-Mart just wants to get products as cheaply as they possibly can, and most of the time that means getting them from China.


And consumers want to waste money just to ensure their fellow Americans can get paid, right?

What shocks me are not these facts, but the reaction of ignorant and angry Americans.

----------


## donnay

> How much do you want them to spend? 
> 
> (...)


Another Wal-Marx apologist to tell me how a free market works, of which we do not have.

----------


## Nickels

> Another Wal-Marx apologist to tell me how a free market works, of which we do not have.


Don't think I claimed we live in a free market, whatever it means to you. 

Calling me "Marx apologist" doesn't answer the questions I asked. How about you try answering them?

----------


## angelatc

> Another Wal-Marx apologist to tell me how a free market works, of which we do not have.


Nobody in the thread claimed we had a free market.  So nice that you can resort to name-calling in lieu of anything substantial.

We get it.  You don't like WalMart because they government gives them things.  But WalMart doesn't get anything that other retailers don't get.

----------


## Nickels

> Nobody in the thread claimed we had a free market.  So nice that you can resort to name-calling in lieu of anything substantial.
> 
> We get it.  You don't like WalMart because they government gives them things.  But WalMart doesn't get anything that other retailers don't get.


Thank you. It's amazing how people love to single out WalMart as the evil scapegoat.

----------


## AME3

Isn't that the truth!

----------


## donnay

> Nobody in the thread claimed we had a free market.  So nice that you can resort to name-calling in lieu of anything substantial.
> 
> We get it.  You don't like WalMart because they government gives them things.  But WalMart doesn't get anything that other retailers don't get.



Most people are defending Wal-Marx, in this thread, as how a free market operates--so what does that mean?  Maybe I am missing something here, but that is how I understand the Pro Wal-Marx people who keep on defending a free market.

Do mom's and pop's have the ability of lobbying politicians and ability to line those politicians pockets like the Big Corporations do?

----------


## thequietkid10

> Most people are defending Wal-Marx, in this thread, as how a free market operates--so what does that mean?  Maybe I am missing something here, but that is how I understand the Pro Wal-Marx people who keep on defending a free market.
> 
> Do mom's and pop's have the ability of lobbying politicians and ability to line those politicians pockets like the Big Corporations do?


Because the reason Ma and Pa stores are Ma and Pa stores and Walmart is Walmart, is not because Walmart lobby's the government for un-named perks.  It's because they have mastered the ability to buy massive amounts of product from the cheapest possible sources and then demand that the venders sell it even cheaper or they won't sell their product in the store.  Thus creating a strong incentive for those producing goods to cut the cost of production even more.

----------


## Nickels

> Most people are defending Wal-Marx, in this thread, as how a free market operates--so what does that mean?  Maybe I am missing something here, but that is how I understand the Pro Wal-Marx people who keep on defending a free market.
> 
> *Do mom's and pop's have the ability of lobbying politicians and ability to line those politicians pockets like the Big Corporations do?*


Basically it's a sin and crime in your book to be rich, what else are you supposed to do with money you make? Donate it to charity?

----------


## Ender

> Most people are defending Wal-Marx, in this thread, as how a free market operates--so what does that mean?  Maybe I am missing something here, but that is how I understand the Pro Wal-Marx people who keep on defending a free market.
> 
> Do mom's and pop's have the ability of lobbying politicians and ability to line those politicians pockets like the Big Corporations do?


Is this really a question or are you just being obtuse?

The reason all major companies are primarily overseas is because of government regulations that have ruined the free market and have destroyed real capitalism in the US. 

If you have a gripe go talk to Congress- they are the villains. Walmart and every other company out there is doing what it needs to to stay healthy. They have a right to exist- it is the gov that sets the rules. You don't like the rules? Change your congressmen. 

Walmart is a successful company that employees many people who would otherwise be unemployable; they have relatively low prices and they will not unionize. You have bought into the BS that is being perpetuated by the Unions to take Walmart down. Many other companies are operating under much worse conditions than any Walmart MSM fairytale but you will not hear of it because the PTB won't allow it.

And Walmart started as a mom & pop- go and do the same, if you dare.

----------


## donnay

> Because the reason Ma and Pa stores are Ma and Pa stores and Walmart is Walmart, is not because Walmart lobby's the government for un-named perks.  It's because they have mastered the ability to buy massive amounts of product from the cheapest possible sources and then demand that the venders sell it even cheaper or they won't sell their product in the store.  Thus creating a strong incentive for those producing goods to cut the cost of production even more.




Okie dokie.

----------


## donnay

> Is this really a question or are you just being obtuse?
> 
> The reason all major companies are primarily overseas is because of government regulations that have ruined the free market and have destroyed real capitalism in the US. 
> 
> If you have a gripe go talk to Congress- they are the villains. Walmart and every other company out there is doing what it needs to to stay healthy. They have a right to exist- it is the gov that sets the rules. You don't like the rules? Change your congressmen. 
> 
> Walmart is a successful company that employees many people who would otherwise be unemployable; they have relatively low prices and they will not unionize. You have bought into the BS that is being perpetuated by the Unions to take Walmart down. Many other companies are operating under much worse conditions than any Walmart MSM fairytale but you will not hear of it because the PTB won't allow it.
> 
> And Wal-marx started as a mom & pop- go and do the same, if you dare.




I also remember when Sam Walton pushed the "Made in America" campaign.  He's dead and so is anything "Made in America."



Big Corporations are dictating to government!  Go sit on capitol hill and look at the number of lobbyist hang out and how many politicians hob-knob with these same Lobbyists.  Please.

----------


## MelissaWV

"Made in America" is such a sad scam.  Even though people who sell the cars, assemble them, transport them, write the ads, air the ads, etc., in the US benefit from Toyota sales and are all in America.

"Made" elsewhere, shipped here, assembled here, stocked here, packaged here, sold here, consumed here, serviced here... but all the focus is on that first step.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> "Made in America" is such a sad scam.  Even though people who sell the cars, assemble them, transport them, write the ads, air the ads, etc., in the US benefit from Toyota sales and are all in America.
> 
> "Made" elsewhere, shipped here, assembled here, stocked here, packaged here, sold here, consumed here, serviced here... but all the focus is on that first step.


 qft.  I can't speak for all products, but American instruments like guitars are typically built in the US and _assembled_ abroad (so the Made In Mexico, etc label is rather misleading).

----------


## Nickels

> Is this really a question or are you just being obtuse?
> 
> The reason all major companies are primarily overseas is because of government regulations that have ruined the free market and have destroyed real capitalism in the US.


Are you saying if we were a "truly free market" there would be less outsourcing and offshoring, not more?





> If you have a gripe go talk to Congress- they are the villains. Walmart and every other company out there is doing what it needs to to stay healthy. They have a right to exist- it is the gov that sets the rules. You don't like the rules? Change your congressmen.


I don't think anybody is saying they don't have a right to exist. Are you saying Walmart is only trying to survive because the government regulated first? Or are there times when companies like Walmart will push for regulations to favor themselves?




> Walmart is a successful company that employees many people who would otherwise be unemployable;


SOmehow that's a bad thing to some people.




> they have relatively low prices and they will not unionize. You have bought into the BS that is being perpetuated by the Unions to take Walmart down. Many other companies are operating under much worse conditions than any Walmart MSM fairytale but you will not hear of it because the PTB won't allow it.
> 
> And Walmart started as a mom & pop- go and do the same, if you dare.


obviously every company started small, and ultimately by 2 people at some point. Only recently are companies started by rich investors, but those were themselves at one point mom and pop. You are correct that people seem to single out WalMart as if all other companies are moral.

----------


## thequietkid10

> Okie dokie.


Brilliant retort, I am blown away by that incredible response.  Would you care to enlighten us lesser beings as to what Wal Mart is lobbying for that gives them such an advantage over ma and pa stores.

----------


## Nickels

> Brilliant retort, I am blown away by that incredible response.  Would you care to enlighten us lesser beings as to what Wal Mart is lobbying for that gives them such an advantage over ma and pa stores.


I would add, something that walmart lobbied for themselves, not what several other industries and similarly wealthy companies all lobby for together. The point here is, is Walmart any more evil than the companies of their comparative size and wealth?

----------


## king_nothing_

I can't imagine how someone can expect to be taken seriously in a debate when they use an immature, nonsensical portmanteau every time they refer to the thing being debated. It's on the same level as the type of people who refer to Ron Paul as Ru Paul whilst "debating" in an internet article's comments section.

----------


## The Free Hornet

> The point here is, is Walmart any more evil than the companies of their comparative size and wealth?


They are not as heavy into the patent/IP game as a Monsanto or Apple.  I don't see how they tie in with big pharma, MIC, prison industry, education (all those "loans" are money in their pockets), central banking, surveillance society (Facebook, Google), or lock down all our electronic devices so nothing works without Hollywood/government approval (RIAA, MPAA).

I _might_ be upset about imports if lesser-priced domestic goods were passed over for higher-priced foreign goods.  That doesn't seem to be the case.

Their "sin": paying crappy wages.  The crusaders against them are those that lobby for ever higher minimum wages, six-figure salaries for firefighters, taxpayer-financed pensions, more taxes to create more government jobs and more government pensions.  They think someone with few skills and little education ought to be able to feed and support a family of four with a single breadwinner that... stocks shelves.  Someone in Europe lives this way so it must work for 7 billion people.

Wal*Mart could be everything that is right with America but that idea can't spread among those who equate more counterfeit dollars with more wealth.

----------


## donnay

> Brilliant retort, I am blown away by that incredible response.  Would you care to enlighten us lesser beings as to what Wal Mart is lobbying for that gives them such an advantage over ma and pa stores.



I am done retorting with people like yourself.  Go back through the thread and you will see my retorts.

----------


## donnay

> They are not as heavy into the patent/IP game as a Monsanto or Apple.  I don't see how they tie in with big pharma, MIC, prison industry, education (all those "loans" are money in their pockets), central banking, surveillance society (Facebook, Google), or lock down all our electronic devices so nothing works without Hollywood/government approval (RIAA, MPAA).
> 
> I _might_ be upset about imports if lesser-priced domestic goods were passed over for higher-priced foreign goods.  That doesn't seem to be the case.
> 
> Their "sin": paying crappy wages.  The crusaders against them are those that lobby for ever higher minimum wages, six-figure salaries for firefighters, taxpayer-financed pensions, more taxes to create more government jobs and more government pensions.  They think someone with few skills and little education ought to be able to feed and support a family of four with a single breadwinner that... stocks shelves.  Someone in Europe lives this way so it must work for 7 billion people.
> 
> Wal*Mart could be everything that is right with America but that idea can't spread among those who equate more counterfeit dollars with more wealth.


In a free market there would be a healthy dose of competition.  Not just a handful of powerful corporations fighting to be at the head of the table.

----------


## Nickels

> They are not as heavy into the patent/IP game as a Monsanto or Apple.  I don't see how they tie in with big pharma, MIC, prison industry, education (all those "loans" are money in their pockets), central banking, surveillance society (Facebook, Google), or lock down all our electronic devices so nothing works without Hollywood/government approval (RIAA, MPAA).
> 
> I _might_ be upset about imports if lesser-priced domestic goods were passed over for higher-priced foreign goods.  That doesn't seem to be the case.
> 
> Their "sin": paying crappy wages.  The crusaders against them are those that lobby for ever higher minimum wages, six-figure salaries for firefighters, taxpayer-financed pensions, more taxes to create more government jobs and more government pensions.  They think someone with few skills and little education ought to be able to feed and support a family of four with a single breadwinner that... stocks shelves.  Someone in Europe lives this way so it must work for 7 billion people.
> 
> Wal*Mart could be everything that is right with America but that idea can't spread among those who equate more counterfeit dollars with more wealth.


In other words, you are saying , Walmart is relatively "good" because 
1) they provide things everybody needs
2) they do not depend on loans or printed money
3) they do not depend on IP protection (not that it's wrong, but there is none here)
4) they do not restrict consumers after purchasing their products

----------


## Nickels

> In a free market there would be a healthy dose of competition.  Not just a handful of powerful corporations fighting to be at the head of the table.


why is lack of regulation always an indication of an unfree market? What regulations are stopping walmart's competitors? 

Who told Bill Gates or Steve Jobs they can't invest in a competitor of Walmart? or who told Costco they can't expand their operations?

----------


## heavenlyboy34

I'm sensing some major hostility in this thread.  Let's relax with some lolz from POWM:

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## cstarace

I try not to go to Walmart simply because the sheer size of their empire frightens me. Guarantee you that Kmart is on the way out within the next five years or so, then it'll just be Walmart vs. Target. I was young but I still remember well the days of Caldor, Ames, Hills, etc. Those places were everywhere. If my local Kmart goes, I'll be forced to go to Walmart if I don't want to waste $20 in gas driving out of my way going to Target.

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## TheTexan

My only complaints with wal-mart are the $#@!ty products and the long lines.  Thus, I shop elsewhere.

Then again, they probably use the the force of our government's standing police army to enforce some kind of advantage, as all huge companies generally do.  It's hard to keep track of that sometimes.

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## chudrockz

So, the company I work for hired me out for a temporary assignment at a sister company. And next week, we are doing a project for (Dun,dundun!) Walmart!! So cool!

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## showpan

So, the top share holders of McWalmart are also the same ones who own our banks, (who control the FED), they own our homes, our land our lives and this country. How Libertarian to suggest that McWalmart is awesome for manipulating our government and our markets in order to create the largest monopoly ever next to Chevron. 
We should just rename this country into the United Walmarts of Mexico.


Top Institutional Holders
Holder	Shares	% Out	Value*	Reported
VANGUARD GROUP, INC. (THE)	86,994,544	2.57	5,324,066,092	Mar 30, 2012
STATE STREET CORPORATION	80,838,314	2.39	4,947,304,816	Mar 30, 2012
BERKSHIRE HATHAWAY, INC	46,708,142	1.38	2,858,538,290	Mar 30, 2012
BlackRock Institutional Trust Company, N.A.	45,694,460	1.35	2,796,500,952	Mar 30, 2012
Bank of New York Mellon Corporation	30,440,941	0.90	1,862,985,589	Mar 30, 2012
DODGE & COX INC	22,941,749	0.68	1,404,035,038	Mar 30, 2012
NORTHERN TRUST CORPORATION	22,520,571	0.67	1,378,258,945	Mar 30, 2012
FMR LLC	19,775,250	0.58	1,210,245,300	Mar 30, 2012
GRANTHAM MAYO VAN OTTERLOO & COMPANY	16,955,252	0.50	1,037,661,422	Mar 30, 2012
BlackRock Group Limited	16,806,607	0.50	1,028,564,348	Mar 30, 2012

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## Edward777

> lol didnt expect to find WM hate here... goods are gonna be made in china no matter who buys them. If it was a mom and pop store the only difference is you would pay more for the same chinese stuff.  This article is so full of crap I just don't feel like going through it all with responses.
> 
> walmart is a benefit to the US economy. 
> 
> It is .gov policy that is the enemy.


Yet how can an American business that has to comply with tons of federal regulations compete fairly when nations like China have little or no environmental regulations or expectations for how to treat workers?

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## Nickels

> Yet how can an American business that has to comply with tons of federal regulations compete fairly when nations like China have little or no environmental regulations or expectations for how to treat workers?


in other words, if we want jobs like China, we must become them.

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## The Free Hornet

> So, the top share holders of McWalmart are also the same ones who own our banks, (who control the FED), they own our homes, our land our lives and this country. How Libertarian to suggest that McWalmart is awesome for manipulating our government and our markets in order to create the largest monopoly ever next to Chevron. 
> We should just rename this country into the United Walmarts of Mexico.
> 
> 
> Top Institutional Holders
> Holder	Shares	% Out	Value*	Reported
> VANGUARD GROUP, INC. (THE)	86,994,544	2.57	5,324,066,092	Mar 30, 2012
> STATE STREET CORPORATION	80,838,314	2.39	4,947,304,816	Mar 30, 2012
> BERKSHIRE HATHAWAY, INC	46,708,142	1.38	2,858,538,290	Mar 30, 2012
> ...


As I read that data, only 11.5% of the shares are represented.  Given the Walton holdings, I am not sure what your point is.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=WMT+Major+Holders
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ir?s=WMT+Insider+Roster

Wal*Mart is 31% institutionally owned compared to Monsanto at 85%.

http://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE%3AWMT
http://www.google.com/finance?q=monsanto

As a reader challenge, +1 rep to anybody naming a company with a market cap equal to or larger than 46 Billion (like Monsanto) but with institutional ownership less than 31% (Wal*Mart).  I'm sure it would be easy but I have tried GE, AAPL, and a few others.

Facebook only has institutional ownership of 4% (seems low - could be that Zuck is holding so many shares) and their market cap is about 45 Billion.  My guess is that the smart money is staying the hell away from them.

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## showpan

No doubt about it....Monsanto is just as bad except they are a little more blatant. Just because Walmart holders have less percentage, doesn't mean they aren't taking in a huge amount of money for those shares given the amount of money Walmart makes. I thought the point was pretty clear. Gee look who also has the most shares of Monsanto...lol 

And if we want OUR jobs back from China...it's real simple...end NAFTA!!!

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=MON+Major+Holders
Top Institutional Holders
Holder	Shares	% Out	Value*	Reported
VANGUARD GROUP, INC. (THE)	26,117,629	4.90	2,083,142,089	Mar 31, 2012
STATE STREET CORPORATION	20,584,997	3.86	1,641,859,360	Mar 31, 2012
FMR LLC	18,462,134	3.46	1,472,539,807	Mar 31, 2012
BlackRock Institutional Trust Company, N.A.	14,126,225	2.65	1,126,707,706	Mar 31, 2012
PRICE (T.ROWE) ASSOCIATES INC	14,066,313	2.64	1,121,929,124	Mar 31, 2012
PRIMECAP MANAGEMENT COMPANY	12,886,154	2.42	1,027,799,643	Mar 31, 2012
JENNISON ASSOCIATES LLC	11,493,820	2.16	916,747,083	Mar 31, 2012
DAVIS SELECTED ADVISERS, LP	11,344,911	2.13	904,870,101	Mar 31, 2012
MARSICO CAPITAL MANAGEMENT, LLC	10,104,033	1.90	805,897,672	Mar 31, 2012
WINSLOW CAPITAL MANAGEMENT	8,747,601	1.64	697,708,655	Mar 31, 2012

Top Mutual Fund Holders
Holder	Shares	% Out	Value*	Reported
FIDELITY GROWTH COMPANY FUND	6,834,978	1.28	527,660,301	May 31, 2012
DAVIS NEW YORK VENTURE FUND	6,600,196	1.24	502,802,931	Apr 30, 2012
VANGUARD TOTAL STOCK MARKET INDEX FUND	6,542,455	1.23	521,826,210	Mar 31, 2012
VANGUARD/PRIMECAP FUND	5,912,460	1.11	471,577,809	Mar 31, 2012
Market Vectors ETF Tr-Agribusiness ETF	5,758,813	1.08	444,580,363	May 31, 2012
Mainstay Large Cap Growth Fund	5,140,600	0.96	396,854,320	May 31, 2012
VANGUARD 500 INDEX FUND	4,782,923	0.90	381,485,938	Mar 31, 2012
VANGUARD INSTITUTIONAL INDEX FUND-INSTITUTIONAL INDEX FD	4,643,672	0.87	370,379,278	Mar 31, 2012
SPDR S&P 500 ETF Trust	4,356,782	0.82	331,899,652	Apr 30, 2012
COLLEGE RETIREMENT EQUITIES FUND-STOCK ACCOUNT	3,756,588	0.70	299,625,458	Mar 31, 2012

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