# News & Current Events > U.S. Political News >  man evicted from his own property for living poor...

## aravoth

http://objectsinmotion.org/man-gets-...living-simple/

I'd be willing to bet that if given the chance, just about everyone on this forum would jump at the chance to live off the grid on 35+ acres, no matter if it was simple living, or not. 

There goes that idea...

Maybe we can generate some outcry and help this old man out? I can't think of a better way I would like to spend my last years than to just be at peace with my surroundings, with a couple of 4 legged companions nearby.

EDIT : Here are some phone numbers for you to call and voice your opinion..

Assessor, County 	  	(765) 641-9401 	   	Cheryl Heath
Circuit Court 	  	(765) 641-9436 	   	Judge Pyle
Clerk 	  	(765) 641-9443 	   	Ludy Watkins
Commissioners 	  	(765) 641-9470 	   	Linda Smith
Community Justice Center 	  	(765) 649-7341 	   	Ann Roberts
County Attorney 	  	(765) 641-9474 	   	Gerald Shine
Court Administration 	  	(765) 641-9503 	   	James Hunter
Prosecuting Attorney 	  	(765) 641-9585 	   	Thomas Broderick Jr
Purdue Extension 	  	(765) 641-9514 	   	Gary Simmons
Sheriff's Department 	  	(765) 646-9290 	   	Ron Richardson
Surveyor 	  	(765) 641-9638 	   	Patrick Manship

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## Anti Federalist

> http://objectsinmotion.org/man-gets-...living-simple/
> 
> I'd be willing to bet that if given the chance, just about everyone on this forum would jump at the chance to live off the grid on 35+ acres, not matter if it was simple living, or not. 
> 
> There goes that idea...
> 
> Maybe we can generate some outcry and help this old man out? I can't think of a better way I would like to spend my last years than to just be at peace with my surroundings, with a couple of 4 legged companions nearby.


Peace and being left alone?

Not permitted, mundane.

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## angelatc

I remember a similiar story in St Petersburg.  The family was living in a trailer, with no running water or electricity, but they were clean and fed. The kids bathed at their father's house, and I forget what they had arranged for a toilet, but it was something clean and legal.

So social services came to get the kids. They ran away, and agreed to enter foster care only if the reporter would write about the situation.  

They were in school, getting good grades, not in any trouble...it was sickening to think of what they might have been exposed to in foster care.

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## Anti Federalist

> I remember a similiar story in St Petersburg.  The family was living in a trailer, with no running water or electricity, but they were clean and fed. The kids bathed at their father's house, and I forget what they had arranged for a toilet, but it was something clean and legal.
> 
> So social services came to get the kids. They ran away, and agreed to enter foster care only if the reporter would write about the situation.  
> 
> They were in school, getting good grades, not in any trouble...it was sickening to think of what they might have been exposed to in foster care.


As more and more people lose their homes and jobs, the state is right there to leap on them and make sure they are fully crushed.

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## amy31416

It's happening with relative frequency...the public utilities commission got the police involved in this case, and the guy's actually gone to jail--3 times. It's $#@!ing outrageous:

http://www.off-grid.net/2008/08/20/w...fighting-fund/




> William Williams fighting fund 
> by NICK ROSEN	 on AUGUST 20, 2008 - 2 Comments	 in EVENTS
> 
> 
> 
> Williams: off-grid hero This web site is organising donations to help pay lawyers for a Pittsburgh man who uses no public utilities — and has served three stints in the county jail because of his battles. Now he faces more legal wrangling for refusing to tap into the local sewage system.
> 
> Off-Grid was the first to report on William Williams, 78, of Cecil, back in 2006. Now Williams is again pressing ahead with his long- held doctrine that he, not public utilities or authorities, dictates what happens on his property. He describes utility companies and authorities as “troublemakers,” “bullies” and “yo-yos with ***** ideas” about encroaching on people’s lives.
> 
> ...

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## Bern

Yeah property rights in the land of the free.

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## noxagol

Any of you know if that is madison county, Illinois perchance? If so, he lives real close by to me.

Nevermind, its in indiana

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## Brooklyn Red Leg

> Peace and being left alone?
> 
> Not permitted, mundane.


Exactly. The Social Contract means everyone else around you gets to determine what you do.

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## james1906

This guy seems to be the epitome of 'green living.'  Where are the liberal treehuggers to support this guy?

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## armstrong

bump so all can see this

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## Pericles

"the protection guaranteed by the amendments is much broader in scope. The makers of                      our Constitution undertook to secure conditions favorable                      to the pursuit of happiness. They recognized the significance                      of man's spiritual nature, of his feelings and of his intellect                      . . . They sought to protect Americans in their beliefs, their                      thoughts, their emotions, and their sensations. They conferred                      as against the government the right to be left alone -- the                      most comprehensive of rights and the right most valued by                      civilized men."

Justice Louis Brandeis

Olmstead v. United States

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## Melissa

at least for once the comments are encouraging

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## UtahApocalypse

My question is this:

If you are forced to comply then you are also forced to pay?

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## kahless

More proof we do not live in a free society that honors private property rights.  If it was not zoning they would be forcing him to pay education - property taxes and taking his property if does not comply.

The people that are working against him are the true terrorists that threaten America.  I hope the people as well as the militias put together a show a force in protest to stop these terrorists.

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## Bern

I sent an email to Linda Smith, the clerk for the county commissioners office,  asking what the scoop is for the eviction proceedings.

http://madisoncountyindiana.org/CountyOffices.html

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## ChaosControl

I want the damn government destroyed, piece of **** scumbags.

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## GunnyFreedom

Shared both Thompson and Williams on FB

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## aravoth

I edited the OP, and put the county phone numbers on the front page. Call the county commissioners and tell them to put a stop to this. Harassing an old man that just wants to be left alone is utter bull$#@!.

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## idirtify

Are they trying to take his land, or only trying to evict him from living on it?

Either way, I might go to the meeting. It’s like two counties over from Indianapolis. I’d like to go and at least video the commissioners (zoom in on all their faces and YT it).

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## sailingaway

> Are they trying to take his land, or only trying to evict him from living on it?
> 
> Either way, I might go to the meeting. Its like two counties over from Indianapolis. Id like to go and at least video the commissioners (zoom in on all their faces and YT it).


Post it when you do so we all can watch and favorite it.

This is messed up.

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## idirtify

The Madison county website lists no meeting for the 7th, but there’s one for the same time on the 14th. I’m calling.

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## aravoth

Should call the sheriffs office also, They must be fielding a few calls right now because no -one is answering...

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## TheeJoeGlass

This is how home grown terrorism is born. This man is clearly not in his right mind, but he is living by himself and is hurting no one. Other than the high and mighty that want their crappy little Indiana town to not look so poor.

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## idirtify

God, did I just have a bit of fun!  I just spoke with the planning commission of Madison county Indiana and found out that there are no meetings left, and no court date is set for the Dick Thompson case. Apparently it is the hands of a court/judge/trial at this time. But the planning commission was the responsible entity, and is the one to call about questions. But the best part was when I asked if I could check back periodically for updates. At that point, the lady I was speaking with got a defensive tone and asked me my name. I told her, and then I asked her for hers. Get this: she refused to tell me! I replied with, “you’re kidding; you’re not going to identify yourself?!” She said, “I don’t see why it matters.” It continued with something like, “but you’re a public official”; “no, I’m just an employee”, and after some coaxing she ended up giving me her first name only: “Liz”. (BTW, I got it all on tape. Anybody wanna hear it? It’s hilarious!) Apparently, judging from that ridiculous response, they have been getting some flack over this case. Let’s keep it up. Call the planning department right now at (765) 641-9480 and ask LIZ about the case of Dick Thompson. Don’t be rude, but play dumb and be persistent. First prize goes to the caller who succeeds in getting Liz’s last name!!!

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## ARealConservative

no sewage is troubling.  If everyone chose to go that route, we would have health problems at epidemic proportions.

he should at least create a septic tank and passive leach field, or he is responsible for the pollution, which will be far greater cost to him in the long run.

still off the grid, but being responsible for his "actions".

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## idirtify

http://www.madisoncountyindiana.org/...ommission.html
Apparently the man in charge of the planning commission is Bill Maxwell (at that same phone number). Here are all the board members:

Bill Maxwell, President
Wesley Likens, Vice President
John Simmermon
Mark Gary
Paul Wilson
John Orick
Pat Manship
Larry Crenshaw
Phil Isom

http://www.madisoncountyindiana.org/.../PCA101210.pdf
It looks like I found the last name of our mystery lady: Elizabeth A. Bruns, secretary. But please, still feel free to call and try to get her to tell you. 

But next appropriate question to them would be: Which planning commission date on the website would have the minutes for the most recent Dick Thompson meeting? 
http://www.madisoncountyindiana.org/...ndMinutes.html

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## fgd

"no sewage is troubling."

Not in the least.  A basic sawdust composting toilet built out of free materials will give years and years of service with no pathogens leaking into the environment at all.  Instead, all you get is a pile of awesome compost.

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## idirtify

> no sewage is troubling.  If everyone chose to go that route, we would have health problems at epidemic proportions.
> 
> he should at least create a septic tank and passive leach field, or he is responsible for the pollution, which will be far greater cost to him in the long run.
> 
> still off the grid, but being responsible for his "actions".


Im curious. At what point does manure cease to be fertilizer and magically becomes pollution? This question is especially appropriate since we are not talking about everyone, but we ARE talking about ONE man living on FORTY acres which he OWNS!

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## sailingaway

> no sewage is troubling.  If everyone chose to go that route, we would have health problems at epidemic proportions.
> 
> he should at least create a septic tank and passive leach field, or he is responsible for the pollution, which will be far greater cost to him in the long run.
> 
> still off the grid, but being responsible for his "actions".


It isn't all THAT troubling, for one person.  It wasn't all THAT long ago that outhouses were the norm, still, in rural areas.  (Not my lifetime, but my mother's.)  Don't put it by the river, is all.

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## Dr.3D

> Im curious. At what point does manure cease to be fertilizer and magically becomes pollution? This question is especially appropriate since we are not talking about everyone, but we ARE talking about ONE man living on FORTY acres which he OWNS!


That guy could build an outhouse and used it forever without causing any pollution.  It might smell a bit down wind though.

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## idirtify

I called again. Apparently theyve been getting lots of calls. Liz read me a prepared statement from the county attorney:

A zoning violation was filed against mr Thompson by the planning dept after an investigation commenced. After two hearings in superior court, the court entered an order that mr Thompson vacate the recreational vehicle as his permanent residence. Mr Thompson has the right to appeal through the courts. As of nov 30 mr Thompson said he was moving out of the RV. That doesnt mean mr Thompson cant go back on the property to feed and water his horses. Also mr Thompson can park his RV on the parcel; he just cannot reside there as his permanent residence.

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## Anti Federalist

For a more high tech off grid sewage solution:

Fully enclosed composting toilet:

http://www.natureshead.net/?gclid=CP...FRZ-5QodF33vmg

Incinerating toilet:

http://ecojohn.com/

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## oyarde

> Are they trying to take his land, or only trying to evict him from living on it?
> 
> Either way, I might go to the meeting. Its like two counties over from Indianapolis. Id like to go and at least video the commissioners (zoom in on all their faces and YT it).


No doubt , scumbags .

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## idirtify

> I called again. Apparently theyve been getting lots of calls. Liz read me a prepared statement from the county attorney:
> 
> A zoning violation was filed against mr Thompson by the planning dept after an investigation commenced. After two hearings in superior court, the court entered an order that mr Thompson vacate the recreational vehicle as his permanent residence. Mr Thompson has the right to appeal through the courts. As of nov 30 mr Thompson said he was moving out of the RV. That doesnt mean mr Thompson cant go back on the property to feed and water his horses. Also mr Thompson can park his RV on the parcel; he just cannot reside there as his permanent residence.


So apparently its OK to have horse $#@! on your property, but not your own $#@!. It looks like thats what it comes down to.

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## Anti Federalist

> This is how home grown terrorism is born. This man is clearly not in his right mind, but he is living by himself and is hurting no one. Other than the high and mighty that want their crappy little Indiana town to not look so poor.


Wait, wait, wait, wut?

Why is this man not in his right mind?

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## oyarde

> So apparently its OK to have horse $#@! on your property, but not your own $#@!. It looks like thats what it comes down to.


Yeah , the leftists love animals , not people .

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## TonySutton

Does it say anywhere what he is doing for water and sewage?  I do not see it noted anywhere.  Remember he is living in a recreational vehicle.  Most have fresh water, gray water and black water storage tanks.  He could be taking his trailer to a dump site to fill up with fresh water and discharge the sewage.

It amazes me that I can buy a trailer and travel the country for the rest of my life but if I try to put my trailer on my land and live there for the rest of my life I am suddenly a criminal.  wtf??

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## Dr.3D

A simple solution is for him to drive the RV to another location and live there for a time, then move to another location and do the same thing.   Seems they just don't want him living on his own land.

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## aravoth

> God, did I just have a bit of fun!  I just spoke with the planning commission of Madison county Indiana and found out that there are no meetings left, and no court date is set for the Dick Thompson case. Apparently it is the hands of a court/judge/trial at this time. But the planning commission was the responsible entity, and is the one to call about questions. But the best part was when I asked if I could check back periodically for updates. At that point, the lady I was speaking with got a defensive tone and asked me my name. I told her, and then I asked her for hers. Get this: she refused to tell me! I replied with, youre kidding; youre not going to identify yourself?! She said, I dont see why it matters. It continued with something like, but youre a public official; no, Im just an employee, and after some coaxing she ended up giving me her first name only: Liz. (BTW, I got it all on tape. Anybody wanna hear it? Its hilarious!) Apparently, judging from that ridiculous response, they have been getting some flack over this case. Lets keep it up. Call the planning department right now at (765) 641-9480 and ask LIZ about the case of Dick Thompson. Dont be rude, but play dumb and be persistent. First prize goes to the caller who succeeds in getting Lizs last name!!!


Yes I want to hear it, upload to youtube plz!

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## aravoth

> no sewage is troubling.  If everyone chose to go that route, we would have health problems at epidemic proportions.
> 
> he should at least create a septic tank and passive leach field, or he is responsible for the pollution, which will be far greater cost to him in the long run.
> 
> still off the grid, but being responsible for his "actions".


dude, it's his property, he owns 36 acres ourtight. He can take a $#@! anywhere on that property, because it's his. He can drop a turd in the driveway, in the middle of a field, he can even climb a tree and drop a deuce right on the tallest branch. Why? 

Because it's his.

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## aravoth

> I called again. Apparently theyve been getting lots of calls. Liz read me a prepared statement from the county attorney:
> 
> A zoning violation was filed against mr Thompson by the planning dept after an investigation commenced. After two hearings in superior court, the court entered an order that mr Thompson vacate the recreational vehicle as his permanent residence. Mr Thompson has the right to appeal through the courts. As of nov 30 mr Thompson said he was moving out of the RV. That doesnt mean mr Thompson cant go back on the property to feed and water his horses. Also mr Thompson can park his RV on the parcel; he just cannot reside there as his permanent residence.


I'm gonna ask her if it's ok to sleep in a tent on my own property in madison county.

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## sailingaway

> I'm gonna ask her if it's ok to sleep in a tent on my own property in madison county.


What law is he supposed to have violated?

I honestly don't get this.

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## aravoth

> What law is he supposed to have violated?
> 
> I honestly don't get this.


He violated county zoning laws by living in an RV on his own property. 

He is charged with not living the way the government thinks he should.

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## sailingaway

I mean, come on.  Given the economy, there are about 3 recreational vehicles I RECOGNIZE because they periodically park around the larger neighborhood area in different spots NOT on their own land.  Since the people living in them aren't taking leaks by our garbage cans, we just pretend they aren't there.  It isn't ideal, we have kids and worry about transients, it is a nice neighborhood (likely why they would rather be here.)  But, come on, they are trying to take care of themselves as best they can, and seem to be respecting us and our stuff.

And this is on his own PROPERTY.  

I literally don't get how a law can prevent someone from living in an RV on 40 acres of their own property.

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## ARealConservative

> dude, it's his property, he owns 36 acres ourtight. He can take a $#@! anywhere on that property, because it's his. He can drop a turd in the driveway, in the middle of a field, he can even climb a tree and drop a deuce right on the tallest branch. Why? 
> 
> Because it's his.


What a person does to their property does have an effect on others.    You are not free to pollute those around you.

It is unsanitary, not just for him, but those around him.  He is liable for damage done based on his improper handling of human waste.  If simply one person alone is living in such unsanitary manners, it isnt going to cause a problem, but when everyone does it, it does create issues.  

He needs to build a passive leach field (assuming he isnt paying someone to handle his waste in a non-polluting manner)!

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## aravoth

> What a person does to their property does have an effect on others.    You are not free to pollute those around you.
> 
> It is unsanitary, not just for him, but those around him.  He is liable for damage done based on his improper handling of human waste.  If simply one person alone is living in such unsanitary manners, it isnt going to cause a problem, but when everyone does it, it does create issues.  
> 
> He needs to build a passive leach field (assuming he isnt paying someone to handle his waste in a non-polluting manner)!


How is he polluting people around him exactly? His horses $#@! 10 times as much as he does, does he need a passive leach field for that?

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## robert9712000

> What a person does to their property does have an effect on others.    You are not free to pollute those around you.
> 
> It is unsanitary, not just for him, but those around him.  He is liable for damage done based on his improper handling of human waste.  If simply one person alone is living in such unsanitary manners, it isnt going to cause a problem, but when everyone does it, it does create issues.  
> 
> He needs to build a passive leach field (assuming he isnt paying someone to handle his waste in a non-polluting manner)!




That is kind of a ignorant comment.as the other person stated he lives on 36 acres and im sure his horse craps a lot more than him,Plus you know not everyone is gonna do what he does because 90 percent of people wouldn't want to deal with the inconvenience .So why not just let the few who wanna live that way do what they want.

  The second problem i see with your thinking is the preemptive judgment that hes gonna pollute.Instead of judging a person for what they might do,why don't you judge a person for what they actually do

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## sailingaway

> What a person does to their property does have an effect on others.    You are not free to pollute those around you.
> 
> It is unsanitary, not just for him, but those around him.  He is liable for damage done based on his improper handling of human waste.  If simply one person alone is living in such unsanitary manners, it isnt going to cause a problem, but when everyone does it, it does create issues.  
> 
> He needs to build a passive leach field (assuming he isnt paying someone to handle his waste in a non-polluting manner)!


40 acres is a HUGE leachfield.

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## oyarde

> It's happening with relative frequency...the public utilities commission got the police involved in this case, and the guy's actually gone to jail--3 times. It's $#@!ing outrageous:
> 
> http://www.off-grid.net/2008/08/20/w...fighting-fund/


The jagoffs in Penn that did this ............. unbelievable . I am speechless .

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## armstrong

> Does it say anywhere what he is doing for water and sewage?  I do not see it noted anywhere.  Remember he is living in a recreational vehicle.  Most have fresh water, gray water and black water storage tanks.  He could be taking his trailer to a dump site to fill up with fresh water and discharge the sewage.
> 
> It amazes me that I can buy a trailer and travel the country for the rest of my life but if I try to put my trailer on my land and live there for the rest of my life I am suddenly a criminal.  wtf??


this people,,

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## TruckinMike

This makes my BLOOD BOIL --- (I would say more but I'm afraid that josh would have NO CHOICE, but to put a permanent ban on my account.)

*TMike*

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## idirtify

> Yes I want to hear it, upload to youtube plz!


First Im gonna have to learn how to go from cassette tape to audio file. My pc has Nero on it, so it shouldnt be hard  just never done it before.

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## TruckinMike

> What a person does to their property does have an effect on others.    You are not free to pollute those around you.
> 
> It is unsanitary, not just for him, but those around him.  He is liable for damage done based on his improper handling of human waste.  If simply one person alone is living in such unsanitary manners, it isnt going to cause a problem, but when everyone does it, it does create issues.  
> 
> He needs to build a passive leach field (assuming he isnt paying someone to handle his waste in a non-polluting manner)!


Is it smelly(35 acres is a long way for smell to travel)?Running into a stream? Or did he dig a hole and let the Waste go in there?

I can tell you for a fact, for one person, all he needs for the RV toilet is a 4 foot deep hole 1 foot in diameter with a piece of 3/4 plywood covering it -- . And let the grey water(what little there would be) run out of a hose away from where he walks. 

Thats all he needs. Clean, no smell, and sanitary.

I know this to be true because that is exactly the way I have a small trailer set up on my property right now. Its been there 3 years with No smell, no mess, and sanitary. With one person living in it -- with all the water they can use.

TMike

PS- And I even have heavy clay content soil. 

PPS- "City sewage" is WAY over rated. Its for the sheeple. Folks nowadays have no clue how easy, and how well a simple septic can work. The government wants you thinking that _you_ need _it_ ---- But we understand that, don't we??

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## Reason

have we heard anything more on if he got evicted?

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## idirtify

> have we heard anything more on if he got evicted?


see post #31.

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## Vessol

What the $#@!?

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## oyarde

> I called again. Apparently theyve been getting lots of calls. Liz read me a prepared statement from the county attorney:
> 
> A zoning violation was filed against mr Thompson by the planning dept after an investigation commenced. After two hearings in superior court, the court entered an order that mr Thompson vacate the recreational vehicle as his permanent residence. Mr Thompson has the right to appeal through the courts. As of nov 30 mr Thompson said he was moving out of the RV. That doesnt mean mr Thompson cant go back on the property to feed and water his horses. Also mr Thompson can park his RV on the parcel; he just cannot reside there as his permanent residence.


What are the bastards going to do ? I would just tell them I am moving out . I would just go back and live there , are they going to check on you every day ? It is cold out now , windows & doors will be closed , just do not answer . If they catch you in the yard , you say you are checking on the livestock . They cannot require you give them another address . You may have to get a po box .

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## ARealConservative

> How is he polluting people around him exactly? His horses $#@! 10 times as much as he does, does he need a passive leach field for that?


this depends largely on the people around him.

as I said, if just one person lived like animals, it doesn't cause a problem.

But if we all did it, then it would be a huge problem.

so rather then allowing a huge problem to develop, I completely endorse local communities setting basic requirements - like requiring a septic system to handle waste matter.

i'm just crazy that way.

but this is the point where I remind myself it is a waste of time arguing with the purists and slowly back away.

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## ARealConservative

> I can tell you for a fact, for one person, all he needs for the RV toilet is a 4 foot deep hole 1 foot in diameter with a piece of 3/4 plywood covering it -- . And let the grey water(what little there would be) run out of a hose away from where he walks. 
> 
> Thats all he needs. Clean, no smell, and sanitary.


sounds like a simple leach field.  works for me!

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## oyarde

Waste is not a problem at all as long as nobody is ingesting it .

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## amy31416

http://humanurehandbook.com/

Lots of great tech info on the microbiology of human poo composting. It's the most eco-friendly and inexpensive way to deal with human waste.

It is rather odd when you think about the fact that we take completely potable drinking water, intentionally contaminate it, flush it and forget about it when so many can't even get clean drinking water. 

Even if you're squeamish about this sort of thing, it's really great information to have if there's a disastrous breakdown of public sewage systems. What's your alternative then? There's a PDF of the each chapter that's free to read: http://humanurehandbook.com/contents.html

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## ARealConservative

> Waste is not a problem at all as long as nobody is ingesting it .


but if it isn't handled properly, people will ingest it.

http://www.swopnet.com/engr/sanitati...ia_sewers.html

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## Todd

> For a more high tech off grid sewage solution:
> 
> Fully enclosed composting toilet:
> 
> http://www.natureshead.net/?gclid=CP...FRZ-5QodF33vmg
> 
> Incinerating toilet:
> 
> http://ecojohn.com/



People could pitch in and buy him one.  Problem solved.  

now, Get the **** out government.

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## johnny.rebel

> What a person does to their property does have an effect on others.    You are not free to pollute those around you.
> 
> It is unsanitary, not just for him, but those around him.  He is liable for damage done based on his improper handling of human waste.  If simply one person alone is living in such unsanitary manners, it isnt going to cause a problem, but when everyone does it, it does create issues.  
> 
> He needs to build a passive leach field (assuming he isnt paying someone to handle his waste in a non-polluting manner)!


what is your claim against this guy? if he's not bothering you, why do you care?

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## CaliforniaMom

I wonder if the government will start doing this to the Amish, or others who want to just live a simple life. 

Something similar happened to my grandfather's friend. He built a traditional log cabin by hand on his land with no electricity or water. The govenment came in and told him he couldn't live there because the cabin wasn't following the building codes. He told them he built it that way because that was how he wanted to live. But the government wouldn't allow it.

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## oyarde

I believe it , crazy !

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## Dr.3D

"Oh we have ordinances, people have to follow the ordinances!"

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## Austrian Econ Disciple

Government is force. Government is the negation of liberty. Until people stop believing in the notion that you must violate property rights in order to 'save' property rights nothing will change. It's the same BS as Bushisms 'We must abandon capitalism to save capitalism', even though we have no such thing, and even if we did that statement is beyond absurd. In any event, the Government is the opposite of private property, and it cannot be said to uphold it, when its founding charters make it in violation of the principles of homesteading, private property, and self-ownership. _GET GOVERNMENT OUT OF EVERYTHING._ 

Voluntary land clubs & associations are immeasurably superior to Government/State.

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## idirtify

> but if it isn't handled properly, people will ingest it.
> 
> http://www.swopnet.com/engr/sanitati...ia_sewers.html


It seems your argument has been refuted more than a couple times, but you persist as if you dont understand. Now you compare one man in a 36-acre field in an agricultural region of a technologically advanced country like the US with the filthy conditions of an over-crowded third world country like India. Amazing. Do you have any concept of how big 36 acres is? Do you know anything about the lay of this parcel of land? Do you know if its wooded, or meadow, or all pasture? Do you know anything about drainage, fertilizer, horticulture, livestock, soil-type, percolation, precipitation, or the conditions for pathogenic microbes? Because to credibly insinuate the allegations you are insinuating, you must know all these things AND assume the worst. 

I raise domestic rats. Do you think I should be prevented because of bubonic plague in medieval Europe?

----------


## idirtify

> I wonder if the government will start doing this to the Amish, or others who want to just live a simple life. 
> 
> Something similar happened to my grandfather's friend. He built a traditional log cabin by hand on his land with no electricity or water. The govenment came in and told him he couldn't live there because the cabin wasn't following the building codes. He told them he built it that way because that was how he wanted to live. But the government wouldn't allow it.


what happened then?

----------


## low preference guy

> Government is force. Government is the negation of liberty. Until people stop believing in the notion that you must violate property rights in order to 'save' property rights nothing will change. It's the same BS as Bushisms 'We must abandon capitalism to save capitalism', even though we have no such thing, and even if we did that statement is beyond absurd. In any event, the Government is the opposite of private property, and it cannot be said to uphold it, when its founding charters make it in violation of the principles of homesteading, private property, and self-ownership. _GET GOVERNMENT OUT OF EVERYTHING._ 
> 
> Voluntary land clubs & associations are immeasurably superior to Government/State.


So if there is _one_ violent enterprise in a territory, that is evil and wrong. If there are _two or more_ violent enterprises in the same territory, then everything is great. Is this the anarchist position? If not, please clarity.

----------


## oyarde

> It seems your argument has been refuted more than a couple times, but you persist as if you dont understand. Now you compare one man in a 36-acre field in an agricultural region of a technologically advanced country like the US with the filthy conditions of an over-crowded third world country like India. Amazing. Do you have any concept of how big 36 acres is? Do you know anything about the lay of this parcel of land? Do you know if its wooded, or meadow, or all pasture? Do you know anything about drainage, fertilizer, horticulture, livestock, soil-type, percolation, precipitation, or the conditions for pathogenic microbes? Because to credibly insinuate the allegations you are insinuating, you must know all these things AND assume the worst. 
> 
> I raise domestic rats. Do you think I should be prevented because of bubonic plague in medieval Europe?


Dont tell everybody about that new plague you have been working on !

----------


## idirtify

> Dont tell everybody about that new plague you have been working on !


Right. In fact, we better make laws against animals dying, since cadavers/carcasses produce ptomaine poisoning; and if roadkill ISNT HANDLED PROPERLY, PEOPLE WILL INGEST IT.  LOL.

----------


## oyarde

> Right. In fact, we better make laws against animals dying, since cadavers/carcasses produce ptomaine poisoning; and if roadkill ISNT HANDLED PROPERLY, PEOPLE WILL INGEST IT.  LOL.


Hilarious !

----------


## Bern

idirtify, did anyone ever tell you *what* zoning ordinance was being violated?  How does the county planning commission claim jurisdiction to zone his property?

----------


## idirtify

> Waste is not a problem at all as long as nobody is ingesting it .


Exactly!

Hey, ArealConservative,
You want to know how to properly handle $#@! in a field? DONT!

----------


## kahless

> I wonder if the government will start doing this to the Amish, or others who want to just live a simple life. 
> 
> Something similar happened to my grandfather's friend. He built a traditional log cabin by hand on his land with no electricity or water. The govenment came in and told him he couldn't live there because the cabin wasn't following the building codes. He told them he built it that way because that was how he wanted to live. But the government wouldn't allow it.


What happened?

You only get one life and mine is more than half over.  I have been working towards living that kind of simple life my whole life but government always stands in the way.  

The obstacles -  zoning, ordinances and property taxes (local, county, state and education taxes).  Coming soon will be the expensive healthcare mandate, so it looks like government will never allow me to live free.

----------


## Austrian Econ Disciple

> So if there is _one_ violent enterprise in a territory, that is evil and wrong. If there are _two or more_ violent enterprises in the same territory, then everything is great. Is this the anarchist position? If not, please clarity.


How again are voluntary organizations that do not violate property rights and uphold them violent? I don't even know how you picked that out, from what I said.

----------


## moostraks

> I wonder if the government will start doing this to the Amish, or others who want to just live a simple life. 
> 
> Something similar happened to my grandfather's friend. He built a traditional log cabin by hand on his land with no electricity or water. The govenment came in and told him he couldn't live there because the cabin wasn't following the building codes. He told them he built it that way because that was how he wanted to live. But the government wouldn't allow it.


They are constantly battling the state over this issue. One example:

http://www.blogtopsites.com/outpost/...7e26cd14a54a67

----------


## low preference guy

> How again are voluntary organizations that do not violate property rights and uphold them violent? I don't even know how you picked that out, from what I said.


so what happens in a voluntary society when someone punches you in the face? if there is any organized way to punish him such that force is used, there is a violent organization that does that, either spontaneous or permanent.

or are you saying that in your voluntary society when someone punches you in the face, nothing happens to the aggressor?

----------


## idirtify

> idirtify, did anyone ever tell you *what* zoning ordinance was being violated?  How does the county planning commission claim jurisdiction to zone his property?


I dont know the answer to either. I know you could call them and ask them those excellent questions. I also know that lots of local codes are not really legal/constitutional, but you have to spend lots of legal fees to fight city hall. And if you win (unlikely), your prize is lots of scowls from residents and loss of police service, among other things (know from experience).

----------


## oyarde

> idirtify, did anyone ever tell you *what* zoning ordinance was being violated?  How does the county planning commission claim jurisdiction to zone his property?


I am curious about that , I bet it is because of no septic .

----------


## CCTelander

> It seems your argument has been refuted more than a couple times, but you persist as if you dont understand. Now you compare one man in a 36-acre field in an agricultural region of a technologically advanced country like the US with the filthy conditions of an over-crowded third world country like India. Amazing. Do you have any concept of how big 36 acres is? Do you know anything about the lay of this parcel of land? Do you know if its wooded, or meadow, or all pasture? Do you know anything about drainage, fertilizer, horticulture, livestock, soil-type, percolation, precipitation, or the conditions for pathogenic microbes? Because to credibly insinuate the allegations you are insinuating, you must know all these things AND assume the worst. 
> 
> I raise domestic rats. Do you think I should be prevented because of bubonic plague in medieval Europe?



Some people just have a hard time giving up the "security" of being able to point guns at others to get their way. Go figure.

----------


## CCTelander

> what happened then?



My guess?

They sent out an 80 member SWAT team, shot the place full of holes (with him IN it), gassed the poor guy with tear gas and hauled him away in handcuffs. All for his own "safety," of course.

----------


## Dr.3D

> Some people just have a hard time giving up the "security" of being able to point guns at others to get their way. Go figure.


But, but, but... all of those 'officials' who were elected to the planning board would be out of a job.

----------


## Dr.3D

> My guess?
> 
> They sent out an 80 member SWAT team, shot the place full of holes (with him IN it), gassed the poor guy with tear gas and hauled him away in handcuffs. All for his own "safety," of course.


Probably more likely, something similar to what happened at Waco.

----------


## idirtify

> so what happens in a voluntary society when someone punches you in the face? if there is any organized way to punish him such that force is used, there is a violent organization that does that, either spontaneous or permanent.
> 
> or are you saying that in your voluntary society when someone punches you in the face, nothing happens to the aggressor?


Thats where you have to separate initiated violence from self-defense and justice. While finding out who started it (who crossed the line into overt aggression) is not always easy, it is key. So hopefully you can see that justice is not violence/aggression. The distinction is fairly important.

----------


## moostraks

> http://humanurehandbook.com/
> 
> Lots of great tech info on the microbiology of human poo composting. It's the most eco-friendly and inexpensive way to deal with human waste.
> 
> It is rather odd when you think about the fact that we take completely potable drinking water, intentionally contaminate it, flush it and forget about it when so many can't even get clean drinking water. 
> 
> Even if you're squeamish about this sort of thing, it's really great information to have if there's a disastrous breakdown of public sewage systems. What's your alternative then? There's a PDF of the each chapter that's free to read: http://humanurehandbook.com/contents.html


 Funny, I own this book. I am also a member of compost-toilet · waterless odourless eco toilets compost-toilet http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/compost-toilet/ For the true enthusiast. 

The Humanure Handbook is an very cool resource. Eye opening as to the wasteful nature of how we deal with human waste.

----------


## Austrian Econ Disciple

> so what happens in a voluntary society when someone punches you in the face? if there is any organized way to punish him such that force is used, there is a violent organization that does that, either spontaneous or permanent.
> 
> or are you saying that in your voluntary society when someone punches you in the face, nothing happens to the aggressor?


It was my assumption that you know enough of my arguments to adequately know that when I say force, I am specifically talking about the initiation of force. Well, I guess our many posts between each other have not reflected any understanding between us. 

Now, since that issue has been cleared up, you have any objections? As to what would happen, it would go to a court of law or any other such abitratrative system where a judgment would be found either for or against the plaintiff. Personally, I prefer a non-statutory law legal system (E.g. I prefer polycentric law orders focused around common/customary law). There is a ton of precedence for these types of societies. They certainly weren't the egregious violators of person and property that Government certainly is. It is still highly hilarious to see the lengths people will go to to actually brainwash themselves into believing the engine of oppression, and anti-private property is actually an engine of liberty and private property. (Not saying you do, because I all ready know your views, but there are many folks around here who fit that billet)

PS: I am not against the use of force, merely the initiation of such force. Obviously a person who has initiated force has no legitimate claim to not have force used against him. That is just logic 101.

----------


## low preference guy

> So hopefully you can see that justice is not violence/aggression.


violence in retaliation is still violence

----------


## low preference guy

> It was my assumption that you know enough of my arguments to adequately know that when I say force, I am specifically talking about the initiation of force. Well, I guess our many posts between each other have not reflected any understanding between us. 
> 
> Now, since that issue has been cleared up, you have any objections? As to what would happen, it would go to a court of law or any other such abitratrative system where a judgment would be found either for or against the plaintiff. Personally, I prefer a non-statutory law legal system (E.g. I prefer polycentric law orders focused around common/customary law). There is a ton of precedence for these types of societies. They certainly weren't the egregious violators of person and property that Government certainly is. It is still highly hilarious to see the lengths people will go to to actually brainwash themselves into believing the engine of oppression, and anti-private property is actually an engine of liberty and private property. (Not saying you do, because I all ready know your views, but there are many folks around here who fit that billet)


so back to the question, what is the key reason of why you like what you are talking about and call a situation in which there is one state wrong?

in other words... is the key the fact that there are two or more violent enterprises instead of one? or is the key that they don't initiate force? if the latter, if there is only one agency that deals with retributive violence, but doesn't initiate force, is that also good? a theoretical example would be a state that protects nothing but life and property and is funded by Bill Gates. it's theoretical. it would be a monopoly that doesn't initiate violence, or at least i fail to see how it does.

----------


## idirtify

I have a mission for yall. Go to the GIS map of Madison County through here:

http://mccog.grwinc.com/default.asp
(go to bottom and press “accept and enter…search service”)

And find a 36-acre parcel owned by Richard Thompson. Then post the parcel number.

----------


## idirtify

> violence in retaliation is still violence


While you changed justice to retaliation (not as familiar with defintion), its still not INITIATED violence. Individual liberty is all about the cessation of INITIATED aggression. IOW, its all about WHO STARTED IT.

----------


## low preference guy

> While you changed “justice” to “retaliation” (not as familiar with defintion), it’s still not “INITIATED violence”. Individual liberty is all about the cessation of INITIATED aggression. IOW, it’s all about WHO STARTED IT.


so justified violent retaliation is not synonym with justice? isn't putting a killer in jail using force justified violent retaliation AND justice?

----------


## Vessol

He becomes socially ostracized for one. Go over and punch your neighbor in the face. Then see how the rest of the neighbors look at youy.

----------


## amy31416

> Funny, I own this book. I am also a member of compost-toilet · waterless odourless eco toilets compost-toilet http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/compost-toilet/ For the true enthusiast. 
> 
> The Humanure Handbook is an very cool resource. Eye opening as to the wasteful nature of how we deal with human waste.


And it's stupid-funny too.  Lots of poo jokes, yet lots of valuable information on the actual microbiology...invaluable resource, even if you might never have to use the info, in my opinion.

Made me start to think that it's absolutely asinine that so many 3rd world countries have issues with human waste disposal, when it could be so (relatively) simple.

----------


## Dr.3D

> He becomes socially ostracized for one. Go over and punch your neighbor in the face. Then see how the rest of the neighbors look at youy.


That would depend on if the neighbors liked the one you punched.    Maybe they would all invite you over for dinner.

----------


## low preference guy

good discussion. gotta go now. will check back the thread.

----------


## CCTelander

> While you changed justice to retaliation (not as familiar with defintion), its still not INITIATED violence. Individual liberty is all about the cessation of INITIATED aggression. IOW, its all about WHO STARTED IT.



A bit oversimplified, perhaps, but this really does hit at the heart of the matter.

Funny how virtually ALL of us understood this so perfectly back in Kindergarten, but some have managed to somehow "forget."

----------


## idirtify

> a theoretical example would be a state that protects nothing but life and property and is funded by Bill Gates. it's theoretical. it would be a monopoly that doesn't initiate violence, or at least i fail to see how it does.


Well the theory of a monopoly on justice is not the best theory. Such a monopoly implies a no-opt-out system. A better theory is competing systems which are like any other enterprise (buy our service only if you want it), where they would have to do a good job or they would die.

----------


## Austrian Econ Disciple

> so back to the question, what is the key reason of why you like what you are talking about and call a situation in which there is one state wrong?
> 
> in other words... is the key the fact that there are two or more violent enterprises instead of one? or is the key that they don't initiate force? if the latter, if there is only one agency that deals with retributive violence, but doesn't initiate force, is that also good? a theoretical example would be a state that protects nothing but life and property and is funded by Bill Gates. it's theoretical. it would be a monopoly that doesn't initiate violence, or at least i fail to see how it does.





> it would be a monopoly that doesn't initiate violence, or at least i fail to see how it does.


I suppose you assume this theoretical situation is sealed in a time vacuum where time never moves forward and it is eternally stuck in the same state of being forever? Well, if you do that hardly serves as any useful tool for anything. So, let us assume the otherwise.

I suppose in your scenario there is also never an ounce of corruption (especially not from the sole provider of the entirity of the system), and that everything runs as if everyone is an angel? Well since that obviously isn't the case let's scratch that. We can safely pressupose that Mr. Gates will undoubtedly assert growing control over his monopoly, and will want a return on his sums of cash he is giving away. Imagine now an individual who has been ruled against, egregiously so, in a case where it was clear his property had been violated by the State under which Mr. Gates holds supreme authority. He rejects further involvement in the state of affairs, and wishes to set up a new competiting authority/firm/etc. Will Mr. Gates, and this benevolent dictator State freely let him go? Of course not. A State presupposes an involuntary state of affairs, and hence no one is allowed to leave the State (For then it would not be a monopoly in a given territory if persons, and entities could seceede from it (That would be called voluntary the opposite of a State)). 

In any event, we didn't even need to delve into it to see the absurdity. The definitions themselves give clear inclination that a State can never be voluntary, and therefore your scenario is oxymoronical (A logical absurdity). 

I like and prefer voluntary organizations because they respects as a foundational layer persons property, liberty, and life; whereas involuntary organizations are precisely the opposite. The State occupies the involuntary, and the firm, enterprise, associations, clubs, orders, polycentricities, etc. occupy the former.

----------


## oyarde

> A bit oversimplified, perhaps, but this really does hit at the heart of the matter.
> 
> Funny how virtually ALL of us understood this so perfectly back in Kindergarten, but some have managed to somehow "forget."


Yep , I was pretty smart in kindergarten ( kinder = children , garten = garden  )

----------


## low preference guy

> I suppose you assume this theoretical situation is sealed in a time vacuum where time never moves forward and it is eternally stuck in the same state of being forever? Well, if you do that hardly serves as any useful tool for anything. So, let us assume the otherwise.


no. it's just a state with laws, which receives donations. it's not inconceivable. if you don't want to talk about Bill Gates, suppose one day I become rich and fund a small state. that state has only laws to protect life and property. but it's a monopoly.




> A State presupposes an involuntary state of affairs, and hence no one is allowed to leave the State (For then it would not be a monopoly in a given territory if persons, and entities could seceede from it (That would be called voluntary the opposite of a State)).





> In any event, we didn't even need to delve into it to see the absurdity. The definitions themselves give clear inclination that a State can never be voluntary, and therefore your scenario is oxymoronical (A logical absurdity).


i don't see the logical absurdity. let's scratch the word state in case we have different conceptions. let me just introduce the definition without using the word state. i'm talking about an organization funded by donations, which protects life and property of individuals, and is the only organization of its type in a given area. if you kill or steal, there are penalties for that, possibly jail. 

i don't see the logical absurdity. can you be specific as to where is the contradiction?

anyway, i wanted a simple answer for why you dislike what you dislike. you dislike a scenario in which one entity has the monopoly in the use of force because it is a monopoly? if not, why? i think this is a pretty basic question.

----------


## idirtify

> so justified violent retaliation is not synonym with justice? isn't putting a killer in jail using force justified violent retaliation AND justice?


Your reasoning is good but your word usage isnt perfect. Its good except for your insertion of violence, which in these realms usually implies INITIATION of force; as is listed here 
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/violence
in definition number three: 

vi·o·lence  
3. an unjust or unwarranted exertion of force or power, as against rights

Therefore, you should see how your insertion is not the best choice of terms.

----------


## idirtify

> He becomes socially ostracized for one. Go over and punch your neighbor in the face. Then see how the rest of the neighbors look at youy.


Yes, very good point. And since it will also all be on YouTube in the future, you will be afraid to leave the house.

----------


## low preference guy

> Your reasoning is good but your word usage isn’t perfect. It’s good except for your insertion of “violence”, which in these realms usually implies INITIATION of force; as is listed here 
> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/violence
> in definition number three: 
> 
> vi·o·lence  
> 3. an unjust or unwarranted exertion of force or power, as against rights
> 
> Therefore, you should see how your insertion is not the best choice of terms.


i think violence is the natural word for what i mean, the expression of physical force against a person. what is your alternative?

----------


## idirtify

> And it's stupid-funny too.  Lots of poo jokes, yet lots of valuable information on the actual microbiology...invaluable resource, even if you might never have to use the info, in my opinion.
> 
> Made me start to think that it's absolutely asinine that so many 3rd world countries have issues with human waste disposal, when it could be so (relatively) simple.


Much (most?) fertilization problems in the US could be solved by pooing in the field. 

New Green Invention: the Pooseat upgrade for your car. Basically a toilet/drivers seat with automatic hatch underneath. You drive through a farm field after the crops are out, make a deposit, and feel good that you recycled. If the field is wet and muddy, you drive through the private bay at the recycling center (curtained-off of course), and deposit in the sub-floor tank (which any local farmer can swing by and pick up).   light-bulb-smiley

----------


## idirtify

> A bit oversimplified, perhaps, but this really does hit at the heart of the matter.
> 
> Funny how virtually ALL of us understood this so perfectly back in Kindergarten, but some have managed to somehow "forget."


Well that depends on your kindergarten teacher. Many would just yell, I dont care who started it, you are both disrupting the class and will both go to the corner! And that was one of the many beginnings of our indoctrination into collectivism.

----------


## CCTelander

> Well that depends on your kindergarten teacher. Many would just yell, I dont care who started it, you are both disrupting the class and will both go to the corner! And that was one of the many beginnings of our indoctrination into collectivism.



The teachers would probably ALL resort to that. The KIDS, however, are usually the ones saying "He started it!"

That's how it was when I was in school anyway, like 100 or so years ago. ALL the kids understood. The "authorities" were the ones who didn't get it.

----------


## idirtify

> i think violence is the natural word for what i mean, the expression of physical force against a person. what is your alternative?


We are where we are (forum w theme of individual liberty), and the third definition of violence is the most contextual. Again, individual liberty is all about the truce on INITIATED aggression. Using violence in this environment will typically relay INTIATION of force. If we cant agree on definitions, we will have difficulty discussing; and violence does not appear to be the natural word for what you mean.

----------


## low preference guy

> We are where we are (forum w theme of individual liberty), and the third definition of ‘violence’ is the most contextual. Again, individual liberty is all about the truce on INITIATED aggression. Using “violence” in this environment will typically relay INTIATION of force. If we can’t agree on definitions, we will have difficulty discussing; and “violence” does not appear to be the natural word for what you mean.


that's what you posted in the previous post. so i asked you a new question. what is your word? what word do you use to refer to "the expression of physical force against a person" that is better to use than violence?

----------


## idirtify

> The teachers would probably ALL resort to that. The KIDS, however, are usually the ones saying "He started it!"
> 
> That's how it was when I was in school anyway, like 100 or so years ago. ALL the kids understood. The "authorities" were the ones who didn't get it.


Well at least we children had the right idea. Not that we always told the truth about who started it, since children are often little tyrants too. But now that we are clear-thinking adults, we can better understand the parameters for starting it. And we have the best tool ever invented for communicating the vital information. And may I say its a pleasure to participate in that (re)educational process with such fine folks as present company.

----------


## idirtify

> that's what you posted in the previous post. so i asked you a new question. what is your word? what word do you use to refer to "the expression of physical force against a person" that is better to use than violence?


Oh, OK. Hows justified SELF-DEFENSE?

----------


## low preference guy

> Oh, OK. Hows justified SELF-DEFENSE?


this is the moment that you convinced me we can't have a discussion. talk to you in the distant future.

----------


## idirtify

> this is the moment that you convinced me we can't have a discussion. talk to you in the distant future.


Right; if we cant agree on definitions, it will be exceedingly difficult.

----------


## CaliforniaMom

> what happened then?


I'm not sure how it all turned out. My grandfather told me about that a few years ago. I'll ask him about it again when I see him on Friday.

----------


## Humanae Libertas

Good to see the government arresting terrorists. How extreme is that: no water, electricity, etc. This guy must be part Taliban or something.

----------


## ARealConservative

> It seems your argument has been refuted more than a couple times, but you persist as if you dont understand. Now you compare one man in a 36-acre field in an agricultural region of a technologically advanced country like the US with the filthy conditions of an over-crowded third world country like India. Amazing. Do you have any concept of how big 36 acres is? Do you know anything about the lay of this parcel of land? Do you know if its wooded, or meadow, or all pasture? Do you know anything about drainage, fertilizer, horticulture, livestock, soil-type, percolation, precipitation, or the conditions for pathogenic microbes? Because to credibly insinuate the allegations you are insinuating, you must know all these things AND assume the worst. 
> 
> I raise domestic rats. Do you think I should be prevented because of bubonic plague in medieval Europe?


refuted, lmao.

you nitwits haven't refuted a thing.

As I previously stated:

If simply one person alone is living in such unsanitary manners, it isnt going to cause a problem, but when everyone does it, it does create issues.

----------


## amy31416

> refuted, lmao.
> 
> you nitwits haven't refuted a thing.
> 
> As I previously stated:
> 
> If simply one person alone is living in such unsanitary manners, it isnt going to cause a problem, but when everyone does it, it does create issues.


In cities it will obviously create a problem, given that they don't have the information, land or anything else to deal with it. The fellow on 35 acres is not an issue for public health reasons so far as I can tell.

----------


## ARealConservative

> In cities it will obviously create a problem, given that they don't have the information, land or anything else to deal with it. The fellow on 35 acres is not an issue for public health reasons so far as I can tell.


ahh.  so you are certain that he isn't doing this stuff on the very edge of his land then?  Paid him a visit did you?

and why would anyone want to develop property next to some nut that can't take the time to build a simple leach field?

and why do we have to wait for over population to have some sensible policy dealing with pollution?


these threads are why I have no hope.   the purists are just as idiotic as the neocons.

----------


## amy31416

> ahh.  so you are certain that he isn't doing this stuff on the very edge of his land then?  Paid him a visit did you?
> 
> and why would anyone want to develop property next to some nut that can't take the time to build a simple leach field?
> 
> and why do we have to wait for over population to have some sensible policy dealing with pollution?
> 
> 
> these threads are why I have no hope.   the purists are just as idiotic as the neocons.


Didn't you say earlier that he does have a leach field?

----------


## ARealConservative

> Didn't you say earlier that he does have a leach field?



I have no idea of his situation.  All I said is I support basic zoning laws that require people handle their waste in a safe manner, so would have no problem with laws forcing him to have a leach field.

At that point, all the nutballs starting attacking the statist on board.

----------


## moostraks

> ahh.  so you are certain that he isn't doing this stuff on the very edge of his land then?  Paid him a visit did you?
> 
> and why would anyone want to develop property next to some nut that can't take the time to build a simple leach field?
> 
> and why do we have to wait for over population to have some sensible policy dealing with pollution?
> 
> 
> these threads are why I have no hope.   the purists are just as idiotic as the neocons.


Did you watch the video? It appears that the trailer is out in the property backed up to a woodlot. Second it sounds like they want sewer, which would mean link into the county line not a septic system. They never did clarify what he is currently doing-which could be using the holding tank on his current toilet and disposing or composting. An incinerating toilet would be much more cost effective and easier than your suggestion. They are also often frowned upon when the city is after money (sewer hook ups and monthly payments).

Furthermore the issue isn't stopping there as they want him to have running water and electricity. Would that be too invasive for you? (genuinely curious) Or does one also need running water and electricity to be sanitary?

----------


## ARealConservative

> Did you watch the video? It appears that the trailer is out in the property backed up to a woodlot. Second it sounds like they want sewer, which would mean link into the county line not a septic system. They never did clarify what he is currently doing-which could be using the holding tank on his current toilet and disposing or composting. An incinerating toilet would be much more cost effective and easier than your suggestion. They are also often frowned upon when the city is after money (sewer hook ups and monthly payments).
> 
> Furthermore the issue isn't stopping there as they want him to have running water and electricity. Would that be too invasive for you? (genuinely curious) Or does one also need running water and electricity to be sanitary?


I have no reason to watch the video.  My comments were not originally directed at him specifically.  

Im the statist that supports local ordinances to require people to handle their waste matter in a safe manner.  My entire point of this thread is to say that a passive leach field would require no electricity and as such a person could still live off the grid while not being a menace to those around him.  I fully support such ordinances.

----------


## agitator

38 acres!  Can you imagine all the animal feces that much land must collect in a year?  He'll need more than one leach field for all that!

----------


## moostraks

> I have no reason to watch the video.  My comments were not originally directed at him specifically.  
> 
> Im the statist that supports local ordinances to require people to handle their waste matter in a safe manner.  My entire point of this thread is to say that a passive leach field would require no electricity and as such a person could still live off the grid while not being a menace to those around him.  I fully support such ordinances.


The article wasn't strictly regarding waste. It was regarding government mandating people have certain basic services for health _and_  safety. You seem to be bitter that so many disagree with you and not interested in a discussion but stomping and complaining that a leach field is _the_ acceptable manner to handle human waste for off grid. You appear unknowledgeable or unwilling to consider any alternative viewpoints. This is a typical attitude many take and make government oppressive and dictatorial. Thus the blowback for your attitude.

I don't think anyone likes being called a nutcase.

I think the current use of perfectly good drinking water for flushing pee and turds is ignorant and wasteful. This when so many communities are having water wars over water ownership.There are more ways to handle waste then the current manner put forth through local ordinances. By making people aware of issues they may be ignorant on then creative alternative solutions can be utilized. 

Some properties cannot support a septic system. A 39 acre farm with one man utilizing a sawdust compost system would be perfectly sanitary. This solution is irregardless of results of a perc test not to mention the burden of construction and maintenance of a costly septic tank installation which in turn breaks down and can lead to an unhealthy, unsanitary situation for his neighbors.  Furthermore, an incinerating system would be an ideal solution as well because it can run off propane and leaves nothing but ash.

----------


## Pericles

> .................................
> 
>  Will Mr. Gates, and this benevolent dictator State freely let him go? Of course not. A State presupposes an involuntary state of affairs, and hence no one is allowed to leave the State (For then it would not be a monopoly in a given territory if persons, and entities could seceede from it (That would be called voluntary the opposite of a State)). 
> 
> In any event, we didn't even need to delve into it to see the absurdity. The definitions themselves give clear inclination that a State can never be voluntary, and therefore your scenario is oxymoronical (A logical absurdity). 
> 
> ...................................


Therefore, we can conclude that there is no way to leave the state and form a voluntary whatever, so all this chat is theoretical cloud stuff. As it would be a requirement that whatever controlling entity there is give up control, and revolutionary activity would violate the NAP.

----------


## Seraphim

> ahh.  so you are certain that he isn't doing this stuff on the very edge of his land then?  Paid him a visit did you?
> 
> and why would anyone want to develop property next to some nut that can't take the time to build a simple leach field?
> 
> and why do we have to wait for over population to have some sensible policy dealing with pollution?
> 
> 
> these threads are why I have no hope.   the purists are just as idiotic as the neocons.


Really man?

If he takes a dump on the fringe of his property on someone else land, why can't this simply be resolved in a civil court with the plaintiff citing property rights infrigement?

We need to kick this guy off his land for something he MIGHT do because he does not want to be hooked up to public utilities?

And you call these so call "purists" idiots?

I'm a little baffled by the entire premise of your argument. Very...unthinking.

----------


## idirtify

> *you nitwits* haven't refuted a thing.





> and why would anyone want to develop property next to *some nut* that can't take the time to build a simple leach field?





> these threads are why I have no hope. the purists *are just as idiotic as the neocons*.





> At that point, *all the nutballs* starting attacking the statist on board.






> I have no reason to watch the video.  My comments were not originally directed at him specifically.  
> 
> *Im the statist* that supports local ordinances to require people to handle their waste matter in a safe manner.  My entire point of this thread is to say that a passive leach field would require no electricity and as such a person could still live off the grid while not being a menace to those around him.  I fully support such ordinances.


Readers:

Observe the STATIST (self-admitted), in response to disagreements, immediately and repeatedly resorting to juvenile name-calling. This should be no surprise, since a STATIST initiating aggression is entirely typical and predictable. Initiating aggression is standard operating procedure for a STATIST. Oh, and its also not atypical for a STATIST like ArealConservative (this is not name-calling or ad hominem, since it was admitted) to demonstrate such fallacies as the presumption of guilt, such misperceptions as mistaking disagreements for attacks, and such unabashed STATISM as fully supporting bad laws. 

Lets not waste this valuable opportunity to observe the behavior of this STATIST and identify the key features of Statism. It is not every day that a user so flatly admits to being a STATIST and offers himself/herself up as an educational model of what NOT TO BE.

----------


## ProBlue33

This thread illustrates why freedom in America is an illusion, the TSA, people being evicted from their own land and homeland security shutting down websites that are capitalistic, but some how supposedly steal other peoples money. 

Gestapo type tactics seem to be the norm in the good old US of A these days.

How pathetic.

----------


## denison

> This thread illustrates why freedom in America is an illusion, the TSA, people being evicted from their own land and homeland security shutting down websites that are capitalistic, but some how supposedly steal other peoples money. 
> 
> Gestapo type tactics seem to be the norm in the good old US of A these days.
> 
> How pathetic.


AmErIkA

----------


## Anti Federalist

> This thread illustrates why freedom in America is an illusion, the TSA, people being evicted from their own land and homeland security shutting down websites that are capitalistic, but some how supposedly steal other peoples money. 
> 
> Gestapo type tactics seem to be the norm in the good old US of A these days.
> 
> How pathetic.


Yup, and outside of small lunatic fringe of malcontents, rabble rousers and refuseniks, (that's us folks) the vast majority love it, support it and defend it.

----------


## ARealConservative

I'm done with you interventionists.

I don't know all the facts in that case, and it isn't my government, so I'm not prone to intervene, unnlike the majority of you chiming in.

you live in my region, and I will happily vote to throw you off land if you are unwilling to find a means of handling human waste in a fashion the rest of us are comfortable with.

wouldn't lose a nights sleep over it either.

----------


## Brooklyn Red Leg

> I'm done with you *interventionists*.







> I don't know all the facts in that case, and it isn't my government, so I'm not prone to intervene, unlike the majority of you chiming in.







> you live in my region, and I will happily vote to throw you off land if you are unwilling to find a means of handling human waste in a fashion the rest of us are comfortable with.
> 
> wouldn't lose a nights sleep over it either.




Might I suggest you go post over at Hannity.com cause its apparent you are in the wrong place. Inquisition much?

----------


## aravoth

> I'm done with you interventionists.
> 
> I don't know all the facts in that case, and it isn't my government, so I'm not prone to intervene, unnlike the majority of you chiming in.
> 
> you live in my region, and I will happily vote to throw you off land if you are unwilling to find a means of handling human waste in a fashion the rest of us are comfortable with.
> 
> wouldn't lose a nights sleep over it either.


Yeah I don't like the way you live either, So I'll toss you off the land you own, and burn your god damn house to the ground, Why? 

Because I $#@!ing disaggree with the way you live. 

Yeah, It'll violate every single natural right you have, but at least all the $#@!heads in the town I live in will be happy to see your wretched ass on the street. Then where are you gonna drop your turds off eh?

Pretty $#@!ty thing for you to say man, no pun intended.

----------


## johnny.rebel

> I'm done with you interventionists.
> 
> I don't know all the facts in that case, and it isn't my government, so I'm not prone to intervene, unnlike the majority of you chiming in.
> 
> you live in my region, and I will happily vote to throw you off land if you are unwilling to find a means of handling human waste in a fashion the rest of us are comfortable with.
> 
> wouldn't lose a nights sleep over it either.


it's about time people take sides. i'm gonna help this guy from the tyrants.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Yeah I don't like the way you live either, So I'll toss you off the land you own, and burn your god damn house to the ground, Why? 
> 
> Because I $#@!ing disaggree with the way you live. 
> 
> Yeah, It'll violate every single natural right you have, but at least all the $#@!heads in the town I live in will be happy to see your wretched ass on the street. Then where are you gonna drop your turds off eh?
> 
> Pretty $#@!ty thing for you to say man, no pun intended.


Yup, that ^^^

----------


## ARealConservative

interventionism is a political term for significant activity undertaken to influence something not directly under its control.

a local government is a state and it does have the legal authority to implement ordinances.  Any realistic constitutionalist would agree.

constitutionalists are statists by the way.  Anybody that uses this forum in the manner it was originally intended would be rightly described as a statist.

so I'm honest about being a statist.  I have no problem with local governments governing.  Don't like it, change it legally, or vote with your feet.

but you people are most definitely interventionists by exerting pressure on this government to not govern the way its people wish.

maybe if you were as honest about your views as I as with mine, you wouldn't balk at this accurate descriptor.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> interventionism is a political term for significant activity undertaken to influence something not directly under its control.
> 
> a local government is a state and it does have the legal authority to implement ordinances.  Any realistic constitutionalist would agree.
> 
> constitutionalists are statists by the way.  Anybody that uses this forum in the manner it was originally intended would be rightly described as a statist.
> 
> so I'm honest about being a statist.  I have no problem with local governments governing.  Don't like it, change it legally, or vote with your feet.
> 
> but you people are most definitely interventionists by exerting pressure on this government to not govern the way its people wish.
> ...


Was anybody complaining?

Was anybody's property damaged in any way?

Was anybody's person damaged in any way?

As near as I can tell, nobody had a beef, but the government, nobody was missing out on charging this man money, but the government and nobody intervened, but the government.

----------


## pcosmar

> Was anybody complaining?
> 
> Was anybody's property damaged in any way?
> 
> Was anybody's person damaged in any way?
> 
> As near as I can tell, nobody had a beef, but the government, nobody was missing out on charging this man money, but the government and nobody intervened, but the government.


*The Contractor*
Hired by the Government (after certain kick-backs)
Paid by the government to build the system (that they undoubtedly lobbied for)

Saw this in the Keys also, (one of the reasons to sell my property)
The sewer contractor in collusion with developers, forced a lot of people out of affordable homes and neighborhoods so that they could replace them with High Dollar Condos.

----------


## johnny.rebel

> I'm done with you interventionists.
> 
> I don't know all the facts in that case, and it isn't my government, so I'm not prone to intervene, unnlike the majority of you chiming in.
> 
> you live in my region, and I will happily vote to throw you off land if you are unwilling to find a means of handling human waste in a fashion the rest of us are comfortable with.
> 
> wouldn't lose a nights sleep over it either.


a real conservative would rather $#@! in his water than on the ground because he has been taught that it's healthier. when your county comes after you for not living up to their standards remember how you turned your back on this guy.

----------


## BenIsForRon

All this dude needs is a composting toilet and some sawdust, and he's alright with me:

----------


## Anti Federalist

> *The Contractor*
> Hired by the Government (after certain kick-backs)
> Paid by the government to build the system (that they undoubtedly lobbied for)
> 
> Saw this in the Keys also, (one of the reasons to sell my property)
> The sewer contractor in collusion with developers, forced a lot of people out of affordable homes and neighborhoods so that they could replace them with High Dollar Condos.


Yup, I saw the same thing on Vaca Key (Marathon) as well.

This trend culminated in the 2005 _Kelo v New London_ SCROTUS decision that determined that government could, by it's power of eminent domain, seize private property, and then, *not* use it for a "public use" (a road, a school, a water plant) but turn it over to *private developers* all based on the proposition that these new "owners" will pay the local town *more* in tax dollars.

I know you probably know all this, I'm getting new folks up to speed.

----------


## pcosmar

Well I do have a septic system, and a lagoon.
I also have an old fashion back up plan. (plan B)



Fully functional.

----------


## Dr.3D

> Well I do have a septic system, and a lagoon.
> I also have an old fashion back up plan. (plan B)
> 
> Fully functional.


Works good, lasts a long time, and when necessary, can be moved to another location.

----------


## moostraks

> interventionism is a political term for significant activity undertaken to influence something not directly under its control.
> 
> a local government is a state and it does have the legal authority to implement ordinances.  Any realistic constitutionalist would agree.
> 
> constitutionalists are statists by the way.  Anybody that uses this forum in the manner it was originally intended would be rightly described as a statist.
> 
> so I'm honest about being a statist.  I have no problem with local governments governing.  Don't like it, change it legally, or vote with your feet.
> 
> but you people are most definitely interventionists by exerting pressure on this government to not govern the way its people wish.
> ...


You act like a petulant child with all your blustering and grousing. Some of us have a difference of opinion on what is behind the issue being discussed. Which if you would have taken the slightest amount of effort you would have listened/read the link provided. This is about dictatorial government demanding that people not tapped into the system are a danger to themselves. That not having electricity and running water along with a sewer connection is dangerous. All of which is fallacious and fearmongering. That is how governments control their citizenry.

You refuse to acknowledge that there may be more at force here. It matters not where the overreach is, bad government is bad government. Poor people without options that own property are often destroyed when they suffer in silence while opportunistic government agencies use their might to not only seize their property but then institutionalize them because they are concerned for their "safety". 

Since you are in here slinging insults for disagreements it must be that you are directly threatened by this man's neglect, as an adjoing property owner or resident within this zoning area? Otherwise your opinion matters just as much as the rest of ours. Fear not I would have not interest in living near the likes of you nor the community you seem so interested in protecting. We do not share a common ground philosophically speaking.

The benefits of the internet is the capacity to link like minded individuals together for the purpose of creating a better community and shed light on that which usually operates in the shadows of a government run by the will of a select few. Maybe by taking this issue to the public some entrepreneurial individual will be able to present a decent proposal for this individual so he looses neither his chosen lifestyle nor his property but offers a solution that would otherwise not be considered were it not from the pressure currently being exerted on a system intent on seeing that everyone remain on the grid....

----------


## txaslftist

Not sure what other ordinances he's breaking, but just living off the grid shouldn't be criminalized.  OTOH, there more be more to the story than we are getting.

----------


## pcosmar

> Not sure what other ordinances he's breaking, but just living off the grid shouldn't be criminalized.  OTOH, there more be more to the story than we are getting.


I'm sure there is. And I have seen it before. Elsewhere.



> *The Washington County Sewage Council*
> The Washington County Sewage Council (or WCSC) is a non-profit organization that serves over 42 municipalities in Washington County to ensure that Property Owners and Contractors in Washington County comply with PA State DEP (Department of Environmental Protection) regulations regarding the disposal of human waste.


Property Owners (Developers) and Contractors in collusion with the EPA.
Imagine that.

----------


## ARealConservative

> The benefits of the internet is the capacity to link like minded individuals together for the purpose of creating a better community and shed light on that which usually operates in the shadows of a government run by the will of a select few. Maybe by taking this issue to the public some entrepreneurial individual will be able to present a decent proposal for this individual so he looses neither his chosen lifestyle nor his property but offers a solution that would otherwise not be considered were it not from the pressure currently being exerted on a system intent on seeing that everyone remain on the grid....



Some people on this forum were also using the power of the internet to call the local government and harass them.  That is a clear cut example of interventionism.

----------


## amy31416

> Some people on this forum were also using the power of the internet to call the local government and harass them.  That is a clear cut example of interventionism.


Everything we do here, then, is interventionism of one sort or another. If I called the TSA and complained about them patting down children--it's interventionism. If I try to put an end to the wars, it's interventionism. If I tried to help out that fellow William Williams who refuses to allow the electric co. to encroach on his property, it's interventionism. If the person in front of me in the grocery line is a dollar short on their bill, and I give the cashier a dollar to cover it, it's interventionism. If I donated to help victims of Katrina, it's interventionism. If I donated to Glen Bradley, it's interventionism.

I've done many of those things, so I guess I'm an interventionist. And if I had the cash right now, I'd probably try to help out the fellow in Indiana as well. I consider it to be backing up my principles with action, but I guess you see it negatively.

Helping out your fellow man makes you angry and accusatory?

----------


## moostraks

> Some people on this forum were also using the power of the internet to call the local government and harass them.  That is a clear cut example of interventionism.


So you decided that was worthy of degrading anyone who disagrees with your opinion?

----------


## oyarde

> Everything we do here, then, is interventionism of one sort or another. If I called the TSA and complained about them patting down children--it's interventionism. If I try to put an end to the wars, it's interventionism. If I tried to help out that fellow William Williams who refuses to allow the electric co. to encroach on his property, it's interventionism. If the person in front of me in the grocery line is a dollar short on their bill, and I give the cashier a dollar to cover it, it's interventionism. If I donated to help victims of Katrina, it's interventionism. If I donated to Glen Bradley, it's interventionism.
> 
> I've done many of those things, so I guess I'm an interventionist. And if I had the cash right now, I'd probably try to help out the fellow in Indiana as well. I consider it to be backing up my principles with action, but I guess you see it negatively.
> 
> Helping out your fellow man makes you angry and accusatory?


Well said , helping each other out is a good thing , more of that , less govt . !

----------


## sailingaway

> Everything we do here, then, is interventionism of one sort or another. If I called the TSA and complained about them patting down children--it's interventionism. If I try to put an end to the wars, it's interventionism. If I tried to help out that fellow William Williams who refuses to allow the electric co. to encroach on his property, it's interventionism. If the person in front of me in the grocery line is a dollar short on their bill, and I give the cashier a dollar to cover it, it's interventionism. If I donated to help victims of Katrina, it's interventionism. If I donated to Glen Bradley, it's interventionism.
> 
> I've done many of those things, so I guess I'm an interventionist. And if I had the cash right now, I'd probably try to help out the fellow in Indiana as well. I consider it to be backing up my principles with action, but I guess you see it negatively.
> 
> Helping out your fellow man makes you angry and accusatory?


Activism is interventionism?  We aren't compelling, just arguing.

----------


## amy31416

> Activism is interventionism?  We aren't compelling, just arguing.


According to ARealConservative, I guess....I don't consider it to be so.

----------


## amy31416

> Well said , helping each other out is a good thing , more of that , less govt . !


Agreed.

I think it's possible that ARC has argued himself into a corner and is lashing out about anything at this point. It's pretty obvious that if the fellow in question is not contaminating his neighbors property or water resources, that the local government is in the wrong.

This is about helping people defend property rights, not about local governments being able to govern however they see fit. If we don't "intervene" and help guys like that out, it will probably effect all of us eventually--we don't live in a bubble.

----------


## Brooklyn Red Leg

> Some people on this forum were also using the power of the internet to call the local government and harass them.  That is a clear cut example of *interventionism*.

----------


## oyarde

> Agreed.
> 
> I think it's possible that ARC has argued himself into a corner and is lashing out about anything at this point. It's pretty obvious that if the fellow in question is not contaminating his neighbors property or water resources, that the local government is in the wrong.
> 
> This is about helping people defend property rights, not about local governments being able to govern however they see fit. If we don't "intervene" and help guys like that out, it will probably effect all of us eventually--we don't live in a bubble.


Not only would it eventually effect all of us , it is clearly wrong . That local govt. deserves all of the negativity they bring themselves with that action. Pretty lowlife too , picking on the old guy .

----------


## oyarde

Hopefully Idirtify was not too busy today and had time to call them some more .

----------


## armstrong

so I guess living on my own land, in a 5th wheel will soon be illegal, thats where this will end up if this kind of stuff continues. its not hard to dump your holding tanks. so you must I say must have an electric bill a phone bill, pay as much tax as possible, pay sewer bills and water bills. oh and I soon cannot collect rain water for my garden.

----------


## oyarde

> so I guess living on my own land, in a 5th wheel will soon be illegal, thats where this will end up if this kind of stuff continues. its not hard to dump your holding tanks. so you must I say must have an electric bill a phone bill, pay as much tax as possible, pay sewer bills and water bills. oh and I soon cannot collect rain water for my garden.


Well , they may allow you to continue rain water usage as long as they can figure out what they feel is an appropriate tax .

----------


## tremendoustie

Interventionism is a poor choice for the US military, firstly because they're horrible at making correct moral judgements, but also because people are being compelled to pay them.

If private individuals want to self-fund and go off and help stop an abuser somewhere, I've got no problem with that.

I certainly think calling local bureaucrats who are attacking innocent people is completely warranted.

----------


## amy31416

> so I guess living on my own land, in a 5th wheel will soon be illegal, thats where this will end up if this kind of stuff continues. its not hard to dump your holding tanks. so you must I say must have an electric bill a phone bill, pay as much tax as possible, pay sewer bills and water bills. oh and I soon cannot collect rain water for my garden.


Collecting rain water is already illegal in some places.

----------


## tremendoustie

> Collecting rain water is already illegal in some places.


As insane as it is, yes, that's true.

----------


## idirtify

> I'm done with you interventionists.
> 
> I don't know all the facts in that case, and it isn't my government, so I'm not prone to intervene, unnlike the majority of you chiming in.
> 
> you live in my region, and I will happily vote to throw you off land if you are unwilling to find a means of handling human waste in a fashion the rest of us are comfortable with.
> 
> wouldn't lose a nights sleep over it either.


Now observe the DoubleSpeak of the STATIST who supports laws that evict landowners from their private property solely because they dont handle their poo in a fashion the restare comfortable with, yet characterizes those who disagree as the interventionists. Just like Statism, reverses blame and switches labels.

----------


## idirtify

> interventionism is a political term for significant activity undertaken to influence something not directly under its control.
> 
> a local government is a state and it does have the legal authority to implement ordinances.  Any realistic constitutionalist would agree.
> 
> constitutionalists are statists by the way.  Anybody that uses this forum in the manner it was originally intended would be rightly described as a statist.
> 
> so I'm honest about being a statist.  I have no problem with local governments governing.  Don't like it, change it legally, or vote with your feet.
> 
> but you people are most definitely interventionists by exerting pressure on this government to not govern the way its people wish.
> ...


To intervene in this context is to use non-consensual government force to come between so as to prevent or alter a result or course of events and/or to delay or obstruct something being done. Therefore, STATIST, since YOU are advocating the local government to intervene into this guys property rights, YOU are the one advocating intervention.

What is certainly NOT interventionism in any way is exerting pressure against government to not govern the way its people wish. Thats getting the cart before the horse. If you wish to maintain your backwards argument, you might as well claim that self-defense is initiated aggression and the initiator of aggression is not the aggressor.

----------


## idirtify

> Was anybody complaining?
> 
> Was anybody's property damaged in any way?
> 
> Was anybody's person damaged in any way?
> 
> As near as I can tell, nobody had a beef, but the government, nobody was missing out on charging this man money, but the government and nobody intervened, but the government.


Its been fairly obvious that the STATIST knows no details, and is only presuming guilt over innocence; quite stereotypical for a STATIST.

----------


## moostraks

> Everything we do here, then, is interventionism of one sort or another. If I called the TSA and complained about them patting down children--it's interventionism. If I try to put an end to the wars, it's interventionism. If I tried to help out that fellow William Williams who refuses to allow the electric co. to encroach on his property, it's interventionism. If the person in front of me in the grocery line is a dollar short on their bill, and I give the cashier a dollar to cover it, it's interventionism. If I donated to help victims of Katrina, it's interventionism. If I donated to Glen Bradley, it's interventionism.
> 
> I've done many of those things, so I guess I'm an interventionist. And if I had the cash right now, I'd probably try to help out the fellow in Indiana as well. I consider it to be backing up my principles with action, but I guess you see it negatively.
> 
> Helping out your fellow man makes you angry and accusatory?


I think it is pretty sad. Glad you folks are pointing out the ridiculous nature of ARealConservative's stance. I am having some wicked nausea today and not really up for the argument esp. for someone who wants to make slurs and run without genuine respect for the discussion at hand. 

Kudos to those of you who put the pressure on the local governments as well. They are the ones who often commit the greatest atrocities because people don't feel motivated since it isn't in their backyard. With all the centralization TPTB are attempting to create, this control and fearmongering affects us all. It is an infection that spreads like wildfire from city to state to federal levels all for the health and safety of its citizens of course.

----------


## idirtify

> when your county comes after you for not living up to their standards remember how you turned your back on this guy.


Excellent warning! Martin Niemoeller would be proud of you.

----------


## idirtify

> All this dude needs is a composting toilet and some sawdust, and he's alright with me:


Many people in other countries make biogas out of all their waste (livestock and kitchen and bathroom waste), and then they COOK with it. Basically, they build a big fart machine (biogas digester) that makes the methane they light with a match to cook food with. I wonder if Madison County would approve of that.

----------


## idirtify

> Works good, lasts a long time, and when necessary, can be moved to another location.


let's put one on wheels and include a shovel.

----------


## pcosmar

> let's put one on wheels and include a shovel.


Not an issue. The neighbors don't bury theirs.

----------


## idirtify

> Some people on this forum were also using the power of the internet to call the local government and harass them.  That is a clear cut example of interventionism.


OK boys and girls, for todays STATIST lesson, we learn another new meaning: intervention means questioning intervention.

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## MyLibertyStuff

INCREDIBLE!!! Posting all over

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## Anti Federalist

> OK boys and girls, for todays STATIST lesson, we learn another new meaning: intervention means questioning intervention.


War is Peace.

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## tropicangela

The govt can't have this guy not contributing to the tainted sewage and water supply...




> (CBS/AP)  A vast array of pharmaceuticals - including antibiotics, anti-convulsants, mood stabilizers and sex hormones - have been found in the drinking water supplies of at least 41 million Americans, an Associated Press investigation shows.
> 
> How do the drugs get into the water?
> 
> CBS News correspondent Nancy Cordes reports that, according to the AP study, it's the fault of every American who ever took a pill. 
> 
> When people take medicine some gets absorbed by the body, but the leftovers end up getting flushed down the toilet and into the water supply.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n3920454.shtml

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## Promontorium

This thread gave me a sad because this man was living what many of us (me) only speak about, but the government is winning.

:/ This thread gave me a peak of interest because Austrian and the Anarchists were somewhat questioned on their irregularities.

 This thread gave me another sad because that Conservative fellow is bouncing all over the hard surfaces in the room like one of those wacky misshapen rubber balls.

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## idirtify

> The govt can't have this guy not contributing to the tainted sewage and water supply...
> 
> 
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n3920454.shtml


Excellent point. And one person spreading his waste out on a 40-acre field would surely biodegrade any excreted pharmaceutical prescription before it got into the watershed.

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## tropicangela

Commenter said this on youtube:




> twstoner
> 6 hours ago
> This was started by an attorney who owns adjacent property.
> 
> There is a commissioners meeting in﻿ the morning in Anderson, addressing this issue. Jeff Hardin is the comm. in control in this district, I THINK. The Atty's name is Leann Kirkwood. I hope this helps, please let me know if their is anything I can do to help.

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## idirtify

> Commenter said this on youtube:


Good work. That probably means I was lied to on the phone about no upcoming meeting.

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