# News & Current Events > U.S. Political News >  Armed Feds Prepare For Showdown With Nevada Cattle Rancher

## libertyjam

A Ruby Ridge-style standoff is brewing in Nevada, where dozens of armed federal agents are closing in on cattle rancher Cliven Bundy over claims that Bundy has allowed his cows to graze illegally on government land, endangering a protected species of tortoise.

Vowing to take a stand for, your liberty and freedom, Bundy says he is prepared to be killed as authorities surround a 600,000 acre section of public land as a result of Bundy violating a 1993 Bureau of Land Management ruling which changed grazing rights in order to protect the endangered desert tortoise.

With all these rangers and all this force that is out here, they are only after one man right now. They are after Cliven Bundy. Whether they want to incarcerate me or whether they want to shoot me in the back, they are after me. But that is not all that is at stake here. Your liberty and freedom is at stake, Bundy said.

Bundys refusal to recognize federal authority over the land under dispute and his failure to pay tens of thousands of dollars in grazing fees stems from his assertion that his familys history trumps bureaucracy.

My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley ever since 1877. All these rights I claim have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and water. I have been here longer. My rights are before the BLM even existed, Bundy said.

Accusing feds of seizing Nevadas sovereignty, Bundy says he has fought the battle legally, through the media, and is now gearing up to fight it physically.

Armed agents are forming a a military-like staging area to prevent anyone from approaching the area, writes Mike Paczesny.

Bundy asserts that his case is emblematic of how America has been transformed into a police state, labeling the governments actions pathetic.

Hundreds of federal officials, aided by helicopters, low flying aircraft and hired cowboys, began rounding up Bundys cattle on Saturday as Bundy accused them of trespassing, adding that the impact will only serve to raise beef prices for residents of Las Vegas 80 miles away.

Feds postponed a similar raid in 2012 over fears the action would spur violence. Bundy has drawn a lot of support from the local community and protesters are heading to the area to demand authorities back off. Officials have created a taped off First Amendment Area where demonstrators can voice their concerns. A sign placed inside the area reads Welcome to Amerika  Wake Up alongside a hammer and sickle logo.

The rights were created for us, Bundy told the Las Vegas Review Journal. I have the right to use the forage. I have water rights. I have access rights. I have range improvement rights, and I claim all the other rights that the citizens of Nevada have, whether its to camp, to fish or to go off road.

Addressing the justification of seizing the cattle to protect a species of tortoise, Bundy stated, Ill never get it. If it werent for our cattle, thered be more brush fires out here. The tortoises eat the cow manure, too. Its filled with protein.

A  Ruby Ridge-style standoff is brewing in Nevada, where dozens of armed  federal agents are closing in on cattle rancher Cliven Bundy over claims  that Bundy has allowed his cows to graze illegally on government land,  endangering a protected species of tortoise.

Vowing to take a stand for, your liberty and freedom,  Bundy says he is prepared to be killed as authorities surround a 600,000  acre section of public land as a result of Bundy violating a 1993  Bureau of Land Management ruling which changed grazing rights in order  to protect the endangered desert tortoise. With all these rangers and all this force that is out  here, they are only after one man right now. They are after Cliven  Bundy. Whether they want to incarcerate me or whether they want to shoot  me in the back, they are after me. But that is not all that is at stake  here. Your liberty and freedom is at stake, Bundy said. Bundys refusal to recognize federal authority over the  land under dispute and his failure to pay tens of thousands of dollars  in grazing fees stems from his assertion that his familys history  trumps bureaucracy. My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley  ever since 1877. All these rights I claim have been created through  pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and water. I have  been here longer. My rights are before the BLM even existed, Bundy  said. Accusing feds of seizing Nevadas sovereignty, Bundy  says he has fought the battle legally, through the media, and is now  gearing up to fight it physically. Armed agents are forming a a military-like staging area to prevent anyone from approaching the area, writes Mike Paczesny. Bundy asserts that his case is emblematic of how America  has been transformed into a police state, labeling the governments  actions pathetic. Hundreds of federal officials, aided by helicopters, low  flying aircraft and hired cowboys, began rounding up Bundys cattle on  Saturday as Bundy accused them of trespassing, adding that the impact  will only serve to raise beef prices for residents of Las Vegas 80 miles  away. Feds postponed a similar raid in 2012 over fears the  action would spur violence. Bundy has drawn a lot of support from the  local community and protesters are heading to the area to demand  authorities back off. Officials have created a taped off First  Amendment Area where demonstrators can voice their concerns. A sign  placed inside the area reads Welcome to Amerika  Wake Up alongside a  hammer and sickle logo. The rights were created for us, Bundy told the Las Vegas Review Journal.  I have the right to use the forage. I have water rights. I have access  rights. I have range improvement rights, and I claim all the other  rights that the citizens of Nevada have, whether its to camp, to fish  or to go off road. Addressing the justification of seizing the cattle to  protect a species of tortoise, Bundy stated, Ill never get it. If it  werent for our cattle, thered be more brush fires out here. The  tortoises eat the cow manure, too. Its filled with protein.Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/arm...UxO5AYpJJSo.99http://thefreethoughtproject.com/arm...SYZLG4lqY5x.99

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## donnay

Bump

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## FSP-Rebel

Where's the sheriff?

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## Anti Federalist

If we were the men we were 200 odd years ago, the feds would find themselves surrounded by 10,000 armed men.

But we are not.

So they do not find themselves thusly surrounded.

Godspeed Cliven Bundy.

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## AuH20

So did he start paying the grazing fees and then stopped? Or he's never paid them?

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## FloralScent

> Where's the sheriff?


You beat me to it.  Apparently he has his head in the sand.

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## AuH20

> Where's the sheriff?


It's Clark County. Corruption galore.

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## libertyjam

Related, and so ironic-

Government plans to euthanize hundreds of desert tortoises after budget cuts to refuge
By George Chidi
Sunday, August 25, 2013
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/2...uts-to-refuge/

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## AuH20

Did anyone read their statement?

http://mvprogress.com/2014/04/06/one...ndup-incident/




> A large number of BLM law enforcement officers have been dispatched to the area to assist and provide protection the contractors during the operation. BLM officials will not say just how many of these officers are on the ground. But they insist that these forces are necessary, given the tension in the area regarding this action.
> 
> *“Mr Bundy has created a larger burden to the taxpayers through his statements,” said National Park Service spokeswoman Christie Vanover during a press conference call held Sunday afternoon. “He has said that he will ‘do whatever it takes’ and that his response to the impound will ‘have to be more physical’. When threats are made that could jeopardize the safety of the American people, the contractors and our personnel; we have the responsibility to provide law enforcement to account for their safety. The greater the threats, the more security that is needed to provide public safety and the greater the cost to the American taxpayer. We are hopeful that lawful protests don’t escalate to illegal activity.”*


Huh??

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## AuH20

I have nothing against wild horses, but couldn't have the enviros handled this a different way? You're telling there wasn't a compromise to be found outside the realm of the federal government?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...ckers/7380255/




> It's a battle that has raged since the 1980s when the Sagebrush Rebellion challenged federal ownership of Nevada rangeland ranchers said was rightfully theirs.
> 
> During the past 10 years, horse advocates have been more the aggressors, asking courts to block roundups they say violate the Wild Free-Roaming Horses and Burro Act of 1971. But in recent months, ranchers have again gone back on the attack.
> 
> The Nevada Farm Bureau Federation and Nevada Association of Counties sued the government in U.S. District Court in Reno in December seeking to force the BLM to step up roundups and, if necessary, sell excess mustangs for slaughter — something they say is allowed under the law but that the federal agency has resisted.
> 
> Earlier this week, a federal magistrate judge in Reno granted horse advocates' request to become a party in that case based on their argument no one else involved — including the BLM — has the horses' best interest in mind.
> 
> In Utah, Iron County commissioners had threatened to gather up hundreds of mustangs themselves, saying the horses threaten livestock and wildlife on rangelands already damaged by drought.
> ...

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## Anti Federalist

> “Mr Bundy has created a larger burden to the taxpayers through his statements,”


Yeah, this argument goes over well with the law and order crowd.

Usually they use it against "greasy hippy protesters" but I guess it works against a farmer about to be terminated, as well.

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## AuH20

> Yeah, this argument goes over well with the law and order crowd.
> 
> Usually they use it against "greasy hippy protesters" but I guess it works against a farmer about to be terminated, as well.


Since when do they care about the American taxpayer? LOL This is news to me.

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## LibertyEagle

> Officials have created a taped off “First Amendment Area” where demonstrators can voice their concerns.


I absolutely cannot believe we stood for this horse$#@!!!  The First Amendment area is on all public land.  How dare they mark off some little area and tell me that is the only place I can say what I damn want to!!!!!!!!!!!

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## libertyjam

Federal Snipers Train Guns on Family For Filming Cattle          
Paul Joseph Watson
Infowars.com
April 7, 2014

Federal snipers with the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) trained guns on members of a family yesterday after they dared to stop and take video footage of cattle outside the bounds of a designated “First Amendment Area,” before arresting one of the men for non-compliance.

Image: Sniper Training (YouTube).

The cattle were being rounded up by BLM officers as part of a crackdown on Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy, who has refused to pay “grazing fees” demanded by the feds as a result of a re-classification of 600,000 acres of federal land in northeastern Clark County which Bundy claims has been in his family for generations.

Some fear the dispute could turn into a Ruby Ridge-style violent standoff because Bundy has said he is prepared to become a martyr for what he perceives as a constitutional stance against tyranny.

As we reported earlier, the feds have now started rounding up Bundy’s cattle in the name of protecting a supposedly endangered species, the desert tortoise, forbidding Bundy from interfering or even entering the vast area. The case is quickly turning into another iconic battle between big government and a besieged family.

Fears that the confrontation may turn violent and concerns that Bundy is drawing increased support from liberty activists and the local community prompted the feds to tape off two ridiculous “First Amendment Areas,” outside of which free speech in support of Bundy is banned. A sign placed inside the area reads “Welcome to Amerika – Wake Up” alongside a hammer and sickle logo.

When Bundy’s family members violated that rule yesterday in an attempt to peacefully document the cattle roundup, they were met with a barrage of loudspeaker warnings and four BLM snipers with their guns trained on the dissenters.

http://www.infowars.com/federal-snip...ilming-cattle/

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## tod evans

I sincerely hope there's locals who've drawn beads on the governments snipers...

This is $#@!ed up!

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## donnay

I am Cliven Bundy.

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## Anti Federalist

> I am Cliven Bundy.


I am Ed Brown.

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## Anti Federalist

> Since when do they care about the American taxpayer? LOL This is news to me.


They don't, it's pure bull$#@!.

They just spread it out there for consumption by _Boobus_.

Psy-War on Us.

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## Anti Federalist

> When Bundy’s family members violated that rule yesterday in an attempt to peacefully document the cattle roundup, they were met with a barrage of loudspeaker warnings and *four BLM snipers with their guns trained on the dissenters*.


Freedom.

Now you know what all those weapons and billions of rounds of ammo were for.

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## Pericles

> I absolutely cannot believe we stood for this horse$#@!!!  The First Amendment area is on all public land.  How dare they mark off some little area and tell me that is the only place I can say what I damn want to!!!!!!!!!!!


Where is the taped off Second Amendment Area? I want to reserve a foxhole there.

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## tod evans

Nevada is Bandito territory....

Wonder if this dudes family has contacted the local chapter?

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## aGameOfThrones

> Where's the sheriff?


Too busy giving out freedom permits.

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## Tod

> I am Ed Thompson.


who be dat?

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## Tod

> Freedom.
> 
> Now you know what all those weapons and billions of rounds of ammo were for.


I wonder what the snipers use?

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## phill4paul

Poor bastard. Probably gave his own own eulogy.........




> “With all these rangers and all this force that is out here, they are only after one man right now. They are after Cliven Bundy. Whether they want to incarcerate me or whether they want to shoot me in the back, they are after me. But that is not all that is at stake here. Your liberty and freedom is at stake,”

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## oyarde

> I wonder what the snipers use?


H S Series 2000.

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## CaseyJones

for those of you who are always asking "is it time yet?" ... guess what.

anyone willing to go, PM me I could use a lift

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## CaseyJones

crickets

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## WM_in_MO

Im in MO, sorry

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## oyarde

How many people are these guys going to use to cordon off 600,000 acres ?

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## MelissaWV

> crickets


They must already be there.

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## tod evans

> They must already be there.


As lame as it sounds I can't go.....

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## MelissaWV

Threats to the tortoise:



> Poaching, the use of *off-highway vehicles within tortoise habitat* and crushing by automobiles have also continued to threaten tortoise populations.


Someone should let the environmentalists know that this police presence is likely harming the tortoises.

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## Anti Federalist

> crickets


Guilty as charged.

Haven't screwed up the courage to be cut in half by FedCoat automatic weapons fire.

And I'm sick and pissed at having been put in this position.

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## oyarde

Old St Augustine  tortoise recipe . Cut meat into two inch cubes , simmer in salted water until nearly tender . In a large Dutch Oven , cook some jowl bacon until crisp. Add the other meat and brown , add generous amount of chopped onion , some chopped bell pepper , chopped tomato , some minced garlic clove .Simmer twenty minutes .Add the water the meat was cooked in , add diced potatoes , salt , pepper. Simmer 1 1/2 hrs . If needed to thicken , use hard boiled egg yolks crumbled and flour. Serve over fresh salted , buttered corn cut off the cob .

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## oyarde

> Threats to the tortoise:
> 
> 
> Someone should let the environmentalists know that this police presence is likely harming the tortoises.


 Everyone knows they hate animals , children  etc

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## Anti Federalist

> who be dat?


Major derp on my part...I meant to say Ed *Brown*.

He and his wife are two politicals that are going to die in prison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_and_Elaine_Brown

If anybody survives this encounter, the FedCoats will throw the book at them and anybody around them, just like they did to the Browns.

If there are kids there, well, all bets are off then.

Nothing gets the governemnt propaganda machine going like the smoking ashes of some small kids:

"See what you horrible people *made us do*!!! Oh how we suffer in the patriotic performance of our duties!!!" - Obergruppenführer Friendly

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## Contumacious

> If we were the men we were 200 odd years ago, the feds would find themselves surrounded by 10,000 armed men.
> 
> But we are not.
> 
> So they do not find themselves thusly surrounded.
> 
> Godspeed Cliven Bundy.


The narcotized don't give a $#@! about Mesquite , Nevada - they only care about the rights of those who live in Brokeback Mountain.

.

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## roho76

Well at least they setup a first amendment zone where we as Amerikans can address our grievances. What other country gives their citizens rights like that? That's right $#@!s. Murika! Yeah! If you don't like it why don't you move to china?

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## CaseyJones

well if anyone does go and is swinging thru Texas let me know...

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## ravedown

here's the deal....for many many years this rancher has paid cheap rent on gov land to feed his cattle, and regularly more cattle than the contract allowed. landlord changed the rules on him...now he needs to find new land and doesn't want to go. either buy new (private) land for your cows, or be labelled a squatter and take on a landlord with a nasty eviction track record. when you get into bed with the gov, expect anything.

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## limequat

Kokesh should setup an open carry march there.  What's the worst that could happen?

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## Occam's Banana

> If we were the men we were 200 odd years ago, the feds would find themselves surrounded by 10,000 armed men.
> 
> But we are not.
> 
> So they do not find themselves thusly surrounded.


But ... but ... don't you see, AF? There's no need for any of that kind of business.
The Feds have graciously taped-off a "First Amendment area" where people will be permitted to "voice their concerns" ...




> Bundy has drawn a lot of support from the local community and  protesters are heading to the area to demand authorities back off.  Officials have created a taped off “First Amendment Area” where  demonstrators can voice their concerns.

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## satchelmcqueen

the real terrorists have spoken up in this story. its not the cattle rancher.

people need to wake up and see this is going to be deadly and they will murder this guy, over $#@!ing fees.

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## GunnyFreedom

We're about to Waco these folks.  Come watch, have fun, and express your first amendment in our specially protected zones...

My God, the dystopia writes itself.

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## oyarde

> We're about to Waco these folks.  Come watch, have fun, and express your first amendment in our specially protected zones...
> 
> My God, the dystopia writes itself.


Sounds strange as hell to me .

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## GunnyFreedom

> Federal Snipers Train Guns on Family For Filming Cattle          
> Paul Joseph Watson
> Infowars.com
> April 7, 2014
> 
> Federal snipers with the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) trained guns on members of a family yesterday after they dared to stop and take video footage of cattle outside the bounds of a designated “First Amendment Area,” before arresting one of the men for non-compliance.
> 
> http://www.infowars.com/federal-snip...ilming-cattle/


staring slackjaw at the screen not knowing what to say here...

just...  smdh

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## GunnyFreedom

> Sounds strange as hell to me .


Now all we need is rodeo clowns in hangman's garb.

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## Anti Federalist

> Now all we need is rodeo clowns in hangman's garb.


Everybody floats down here.

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## limequat

Because turtle.

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## limequat

So....

Given the rapid escalation of force over _turtles_, has anyone considered the possibility that our overlords actually are reptilian?

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## Anti Federalist

Is that...is that The Matrix?

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## oyarde

> Because turtle.


If they took my cattle I would eat every last turtle

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## oyarde

I have turtle recipes out the ass . Of course though , I would never put a valuable animal of mine on the Kings land , and would fully expect what would come if I did . It would be easier to encourage the King to put cattle on the land and poach his .

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## Anti Federalist

> Because turtle.


Had to incinerate the children to save the children.

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## Dr.3D

> So....
> 
> Given the rapid escalation of force over _turtles_, has anyone considered the possibility that our overlords actually are reptilian?


Do they weigh the same as a duck?

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## oyarde

> Do they weigh the same as a duck?


 I have duck recipes too Doc . Been getting my shoulder worked on so I can still swing a 12 Ga quick enough to get a lead on a tasty wood duck, quail , dove , grouse , woodcock , snipe ...... I may have to give up Teal though , I may have to resign myself to not being as quick and limber as I once was  .May just have to eat more turkey and deer .

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## Occam's Banana

> Now all we need is rodeo clowns in hangman's garb.





> Everybody floats down here.


What's that you say, Georgie? Pennywise can't hear you over all this freedom ...

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## Anti Federalist

> the real terrorists have spoken up in this story. its not the cattle rancher.
> 
> people need to wake up and see this is going to be deadly and they will murder this guy, over $#@!ing fees.


Not over fees, for *failure to comply*.

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## oyarde

> Not over fees, for *failure to comply*.


That looks right to me .

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## KCIndy

The new Amerika.  A Constitution-free establishment.  Check your liberties at the door, and Abandon All Hope, Ye Who Enter.

I feel sick.


*Federal officials, Bundy confrontation ends in arrest*

http://www.thespectrum.com/viewart/2...E01/304070002/




> A tense encounter Sunday between federal officials and a southern Nevada ranching family ended in a violent arrest, family members who witnessed the incident alleged Sunday.
> 
> At about 4 p.m., federal agents, some dressed in full military gear and wielding mounted sniper rifles, surrounded members of rancher Cliven Bundys family as they parked along State route 170 near Bunkerville, south of Mesquite, Ryan Bundy, one of Clivens sons, said. Four vehicles had approached the area, all with family members inside, intending to take photos and video of a cattle impoundment the agency ordered this week after a 25-year dispute over cattle grazing on public lands.
> 
> We were at the mouth of Sheep Trough Road trying to get pictures of the trucks that were hauling our cattle, Ryan said. All of sudden 11 other BLM vehicles came driving up and kind of surrounded us. Then two of the trucks drove up on the side of the hill and four guys got out and set up sniper posts; rifles, tripods, the whole bit.
> 
> The family was told to leave the area and instructed that they were only allowed in a designated First Amendment Area at a different section of the highway  the agency had closed to public access large sections of public lands in the area as a safety precaution while rounding up the cattle.
> 
> Most of the family started to leave, but Dave Bundy, 37, stayed behind to continue taking video with an iPad, Ryan said. At that point some of the men from the BLM vehicles attacked Dave, Ryan said, tackling him to the ground. A German Shepherd dog was utilized in the attack.
> ...


story continues at link...

http://www.thespectrum.com/viewart/2...E01/304070002/

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## KCIndy

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/nevad...ry?id=23225314




> *Nevada Rancher Threatens 'Range War' Against Feds*
> 
> 
>  A Nevada rancher's threat to wage a "range war" with the federal Bureau of Land Management precipitated a standoff today between supporters of the embattled rancher, Cliven Bundy, and law enforcement officials.
> 
> Bundy posted a statement on the Bundy Ranch website on Sunday night saying: "They have my cattle and now they have one of my boys. Range War begins tomorrow."
> 
> He invited supporters to show up this morning on his property, about 80 miles northeast of Las Vegas, near Bunkerville, just west of the Utah state line.

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## Uriel999

All over the Desert Tortoise possibly the most retarded animal ever. First I know how to help them stop being endangered...put them in the woods. Now that makes them a woods tortoise. Seriously, what a stupid animal that it decided it wanted to live in the desert in the first place. Hell the entire category of the tortoise is retarded because they can't even swim like a turtle. They don't deserve to exist. I hope they go extinct.

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## jclay2

> Not over fees, for *failure to comply*.


If only more people could wrap their minds over what this behavior truly is. Because of this attitude, the smallest amount of conflict will always lead to murder. I can remember one time when I was young where I got in a fight with my sister over control of the tv. Being the dimwitted 9 year old I was, I beat my sister up (7 years old) until she was crying terribly and any idea of defiance was out of her. This is exactly what the fedcoats are doing. Beating a little girl over a tv remote, accept the non compliance will end the finality of death.

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## Barrex

Messed up situation.





> I am Cliven Bundy.





> I am Ed Brown.


Are you writing this in a same room?

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## Barrex

Messed up situation.





> I am Cliven Bundy.





> I am Ed Brown.


Are you writing this in a same room?

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## chudrockz

Rated thread and subscribed. We're watching this one closely. If this was nearer to my home I'd be heading that way.

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## limequat

Careful guys, I don't want to hear about any more RPFers getting visits from the FBI.

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## limequat

> All over the Desert Tortoise possibly the most retarded animal ever. First I know how to help them stop being endangered...put them in the woods. Now that makes them a woods tortoise. Seriously, what a stupid animal that it decided it wanted to live in the desert in the first place. Hell the entire category of the tortoise is retarded because they can't even swim like a turtle. They don't deserve to exist. I hope they go extinct.


Perhaps it bears repeating that this whole kerfuffle is over a reptile that quite literally _subsists off cow $#@!_. 
And it is in danger of being stepped on by the cow.  
I mean, the Southpark guys are probably sitting back saying "This episode just writes itself.  I think I'll eat a sandwich."

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## donnay

H/T: Jerry Weaver
*
Supporters Rally to Defend Family Facing Showdown With Feds*

http://www.infowars.com/supporters-r...own-with-feds/

“We’re not pointing guns at anyone but we’re sure getting a lot of guns pointed at us.”
- Carol Bundy, wife of Nevada rancher

FOR CLIVEN BUNDY AND FOR THE RED, WHITE AND BLUE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90LtLwXXnp4

http://bundyranch.blogspot.com/

Blatant land grab and hypocrisy regarding desert tortoise conservation program.

 Sun, August 25 2013 at 17:45

http://www.kingsnake.com/blog/archiv...-of-money.html

The U.S. Bureau of Land Management announced it will kill hundreds of threatened desert tortoises it's been caring for at a Nevada conservation facility. The slaughter is being blamed on a lack of funds by the agency.

Real estate developers in southern Nevada who wanted to disrupt the habitat of threatened desert tortoises to build their little enclaves of air conditioning and irrigation in the arid suburbs of Las Vegas have been able to do so -- for a fee. And while at the height of the real estate boom those fees went a long way toward providing refuge for displaced tortoises, the real estate bust has seen the program implode.

From the Washington Post:

Federal funds are running out at the Desert Tortoise Conservation Center and officials plan to close the site and euthanize hundreds of the tortoises they’ve been caring for since the animals were added to the endangered species list in 1990.

“It’s the lesser of two evils, but it’s still evil,” said U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service desert tortoise recovery coordinator Roy Averill-Murray during a visit to the soon-to-be-shuttered reserve at the southern edge of the Las Vegas Valley last week.

YOU can make a difference!!!
Tell the sheriff to say NO.  He does not work for the Feds.  He works for the people of Clark County and is paid by us to protect our life, liberty and property!  Not the Feds!

To the other officials - Cliven Bundy has not asked for a brand inspection certificate, it needs his personal signature to be valid.  The court orders are for seizure and remove for impound only.


CONTACT LIST

Attorney General, State on Nevada
Catherine Cortez Masto
Office of the Attorney General
100 North Carson Street Carson City, NV 89701 Telephone: 775-*‐684-*‐1100

Nevada Governor Brian Sandoval
State Capitol Building 101 N. Carson Street Carson City, NV 89701
Phone: (775) 684-*‐5670

Nevada Department of Agriculture Jim R Barbee – Director
405 South 21st Street Sparks, NV 89431
Phone: (775) 353-*‐3601

Nevada Animal Industry/Brand Inspection
Flint Wright, Administrator 405 South 21st Street Sparks, NV 89431
Phone: (775) 353-*‐3708 Email: fwright@agri.nv.gov

Clark County Sheriff Douglas Gillespie
LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT 400 S. Martin L. King Blvd.
Las Vegas, Nevada 89106
(702) 828-*‐3231
Sheriff@lvmpd.com
Clark County Commissioner Tom Collin
ccdistb@co.clark.nv.us
Phone: 702-455-3500

'R' Livestock
(The Auction that has a 300,000 contract to sale the stolen cattle)

435-979-9937  (Cell)    435-527-4226  (Office)

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## donnay

> Messed up situation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you writing this in a same room?



Nope.  We are 1800 miles away.

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## JK/SEA

So did CaseyJones pack up to head to Nevada?....

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## KCIndy

> Careful guys, I don't want to hear about any more RPFers getting visits from the FBI.


Who got a visit from the FBI?

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## klamath

My dad fought this battle years ago. The 1976 BLM organic act, made the BLM a permanent entity. (it was only supposed to exist to privatize all federal land) It also created the police branch of the BLM and authorized the federal government to create wholly owned government corporations. My family and I have fought on the front lines of this war.

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## chudrockz

> Careful guys, I don't want to hear about any more RPFers getting visits from the FBI.


Hate to have to say it, but the entire FBI can collectively kiss my cock. I'm non-violent, and will only use force in self defense. If that warrants a visit from some goons in suits, so be it.

----------


## ClydeCoulter

Here he explains the battles history and how he fired the BLM

----------


## ZENemy

"In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."

-- by Martin Niemöller, prominent German anti-Nazi theologian and Lutheran pastor, best known as the author of the poem First they came....

----------


## ClydeCoulter

In this video, Clive explains his entire governmental philosophy that he is standing for.  *It is slow going, but well worth the time to watch it.
*



> Here he explains the battles history and how he fired the BLM

----------


## Origanalist

> Sounds strange as hell to me .


Pretty much everything does these days.

----------


## CaseyJones

> So did CaseyJones pack up to head to Nevada?....


nope I still need a lift

----------


## Origanalist

> nope I still need a lift


I'm afraid I don't have that kind of gas money.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

Strange Days

----------


## ClydeCoulter

Bumping this video again.....

To the sheriff: "You don't represent the state or federal government, you represent the people of this county, the people, only the people of this county."




> Here he explains the battles history and how he fired the BLM

----------


## ClydeCoulter



----------


## AuH20

Fighting outside your AO poses some problems. Feds are everywhere.

----------


## jtap

All of these sick bastards that work for the government to enforce this sort of BS are some of the most disgusting excuses for humans.

I'm not surprised that it was all started by some enviro-wackos threatening to sue.

----------


## donnay

How Much Land Does the Federal Government Own?

Do you know how much land in the United States is owned by the Federal Government? It’s shocking:

    Nevada : 84.5%
    Alaska: 69.1%
    Utah: 57.4%
    Oregon: 53.1%
    Idaho: 50.2%
    Arizona: 48.1%
    California: 45.3%
    Wyoming: 42.3%
    New Mexico: 41.8%
    Colorado: 36.6%

http://americanvision.org/3033/how-m....PUUm0JY2.dpbs

----------


## Lucille

God bless that man.  I hope he doesn't end up dead.




> Arizona: 48.1%


I was especially pissed about this on Sunday when we were looking for acreage.  If it's not the greedy fedgov preventing me from finding some decent land, it's the greedy banksters sitting on foreclosures preventing me from finding decent land.

----------


## JK/SEA

> Strange Days


''lost in a Roman, wilderness of pain, and all her children, are insane......''

----------


## CPUd

> God bless that man.  I hope he doesn't end up dead.
> 
> 
> 
> I was especially pissed about this on Sunday when we were looking for acreage.  If it's not the greedy fedgov preventing me from finding some decent land, it's the greedy banksters sitting on foreclosures preventing me from finding decent land.



It is because a lot of that land costs more to develop than what it is worth:




> Desert Land Entries
> 
> What is the Desert Land Act?
>     On March 3, 1877, the Desert Land Act was passed by Congress to encourage and promote the economic development of the arid and semiarid public lands of the Western United States. Through the Act, individuals may apply for a desert-land entry to reclaim, irrigate, and cultivate arid and semiarid public lands.
> 
> 
> Will it be difficult for are to find suitable public lands and meet the requirements of the Desert Land Act in order to receive legal title to the land?
>     The public lands have been in the process of being settled for many years. Most of the suitable lands for agricultural development have already been placed into private ownership. The remaining acres are managed for multiple uses. There is competition among users for these public lands. With the problems of finding suitable public land, limited water available for irrigation, and the high cost of development, it is extremely difficult to acquire a desert land entry.
> 
> ...


http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/mor...d_entries.html

----------


## osan

> ''lost in a Roman, wilderness of pain, and all her children, are insane......''


I agree that this is, likely, the end.

Perhaps I have just been working too hard these past several days, but as I type these words my head feels as if it is going to explode.  At times like this is seems there really is naught in the way of endings here but one of the two extremes - capitulation or slaughter.

----------


## Lucille

> It is because a lot of that land costs more to develop than what it is worth:


So the fedgov is saving us potential landowners out west?  Wonderful.  How could I be so ungrateful?

I wasn't looking for land in the desert, btw.

----------


## Lucille

Nevada Rancher Threatens "Range War" Over What He Sees as Illegitimate Bureau of Land Management Seizure of His Cattle
http://reason.com/blog/2014/04/08/ne...range-war-over




> Bundy is the type who, from his public statements, seems to believe in local and county and state authority and not federal. He insists his family has homestead rights to that land from the 1880s that predate the federal government's claims. Hundreds of Bundy supporters have gathered in the past couple of days to protest the BLM's actions, but they've been taking the cattle anyway.
> 
> Bundy has been reminding the press of Waco and Ruby Ridge and other times when federal agents facing recalcitrant citizens have resorted to violence. As ABC News reported:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> ...


From the KCET piece:  




> Though Bundy is attempting to rally support, *he's not getting much traction outside of the furthest reaches of the anti-government right.* Mainstream ranching organizations seem to be taking steps to distance themselves from Bundy's campaign. An article in the Las Vegas Review Journal quoted a statement from the Nevada Cattlemen's Association which took pains to point out they had nothing to do with Bundy's "range war."
> 
> "Nevada Cattlemen's Association does not feel it is in our best interest to interfere in the process of adjudication in this matter, and in addition NCA believes the matter is between Mr. Bundy and the federal courts," the association said.


I guess that would be us.  Not one word on his homestead rights either.  Another contract trampled by the fedgov.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I guess that would be us.  Not one word on his homestead rights either.  Another contract trampled by the fedgov.


*Some* of us...




> "Nevada Cattlemen's Association does not feel it is in our best interest to interfere in the process of adjudication in this matter, and in addition NCA believes the matter is between Mr. Bundy and the federal courts," the association said.


Could have been written by Collinz himself.

"Pipe down you nuts, you're making us look bad!"

----------


## erowe1

This is a golden opportunity for Rand to get involved.

----------


## ClydeCoulter

> This is a golden opportunity for Rand to get involved.


Good idea.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> And this is why you don't have 330 million people standing up to the federal agents. Environmentalists are a far more powerful group than the the NRA or GOA. A good half of the American people agree with this federal action, after all it is for the turtles!


Found Ron Mrowka on Twitter.  Posted the following:

----------


## ClydeCoulter

hmmmm, seems things are escalating somewhat at least.

----------


## kahless

> I don't know if this is the right battle to really rally behind. bundy was renting the land from the gov and stopped paying. he went into business with the Feds and  they changed the rules (shocking). who's surprised by this. again... why doesn't he buy his own land? was this ever his private property with documentation or a deed to back it up?


http://www.8newsnow.com/story/251686...r-public-lands



> “My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley ever since 1877. All these rights I claim have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and water. I have been here longer. My rights are before the BLM even existed,” Bundy said.
> 
> "I got no problem with that. I've tried to pay it to Nevada state, to Clark County. They have some of my money in their coffers right now but I'm not going to pay money for the wrong landlord, and I am not going to pay my money to BLM to manage me out of business," Bundy said, "The federal government has seized Nevada's sovereignty, Nevada's statehood. They have seized Nevada's laws and our public land. We have no access to our public land and that is only a little bit of it."

----------


## Hyperion

The man is a hero. I have a lot of respect for Mr. Bundy, a true American with the spirit of '76.

----------


## ravedown

> Im wondering when the feds became the _owners_ of anything.  Who did they pay for the land and who paid for it?  This isn't really about a rancher, at the core.  My tax dollars "paid" for this land and I don't care if his cows use it.  This is about the feds flexing their muscles to damage a non-corporate owned rancher who dared to infringe on the King's Land and disturb the King's Turtles.  Natural law will not be tolerated any more.  It's all corporate legal fiction "law" now.


i agree with your point, but a distinction can be made regarding private property rights and voluntarily agreement with a government agency and later violating that agreement.  if he really owns the land as stated in the opening sentence in the article above, how many years did he pay tax on that land? these are the questions that aren't being answer adequately. i'd like to know who really owns what, can this issue be handled in court in front of an impartial jury rather than issuing a silly "range war"? seems most libertarians would prefer to settle this through non-violent means if possible.

----------


## Cleaner44

Here is a map of the area:
http://goo.gl/maps/Vy9Dr

----------


## Matthew5

> I don't know if this is the right battle to really rally behind. bundy was renting the land from the gov and stopped paying. he went into business with the Feds and  they changed the rules (shocking). who's surprised by this. again... why doesn't he buy his own land? was this ever his private property with documentation or a deed to back it up?


Yeah, this case really isn't black and white. Kinda muddies the waters when you choose to get in bed with the Feds.




> “Wake up America,” said the rancher’s daughter,  Bailey Bundy Logue. “Look what our ancestors fought for and we need to  stand up for that. We need to realize what’s happening. They are taking  everything away from us. This isn’t only about one family. This is about  everyone’s family. This is martial law and it’s in America and so what  are you going to do to have it stay out of America?”


So could he graze on other's land as well without paying? I'm sure the Native Americans had a few words about our ancestor's cattle operations as well.

----------


## Tod



----------


## Anti Federalist

> The man is a hero. I have a lot of respect for Mr. Bundy, a true American with the spirit of '76.


nvm...too negative...

----------


## devil21

> i agree with your point, but a distinction can be made regarding private property rights and voluntarily agreement with a government agency and later violating that agreement.  if he really owns the land as stated in the opening sentence in the article above, how many years did he pay tax on that land? these are the questions that aren't being answer adequately. i'd like to know who really owns what, can this issue be handled in court in front of an impartial jury rather than issuing a silly "range war"? seems most libertarians would prefer to settle this through non-violent means if possible.


When you start talking about who did he pay taxes to, who he contracted with, etc., you are falling into the same trap of giving ultimate legitimacy to corporate legal fiction and therefore repudiating natural laws.  We all put up with it to various extents in day-to-day life but please never forget that ultimately all you're doing is subjecting yourself to the language and whims of those who think they own you and your property (cows in this instance) and allow you to use it only with their permission.  They have the mindset of "what's ours is ours and what's yours is ours."

Great commentary and funny too.


--------
Also relevant.  I love Izzard's Dress to Kill.  He gets it.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> an impartial jury


What is that?

----------


## ClydeCoulter

> When you start talking about who did he pay taxes to, who he contracted with, etc., you are falling into the same trap of giving ultimate legitimacy to corporate legal fiction and therefore repudiating natural laws.  We all put up with it to various extents in day-to-day life but please never forget that ultimately all you're doing is subjecting yourself to the language and whims of those who think they own you and your property (cows in this instance) and allow you to use it only with their permission.  They have the mindset of "what's ours is our and what's yours is ours."


Yep, another case of incremental overthrow of sovereignty.

Just like in the gun law cases, they make him into a felon with their laws over time.

----------


## ravedown

"Hey Bundy...spoiler alert!"
-native americans

----------


## Christopher A. Brown

> Somebody needs to do some chit !!!    We need massive numbers on that man's land..   The Federal Government OWNS NOTHING !!!!    The American People own the land..   F'k the Feds ...    Force these Fed goons to stand down by massive numbers...   Anyone that can get there, get there !!


Perhaps you don't realize Dianne that Americans are now too poor to travel like that.  The Feds know it so do what they want.  The only thing Americans do is unify behind lawful peaceful revolution.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5433668

Of course the cognitive infiltration of politics online has Americans so confused they have no idea how to proceed.  Christ, the coginfil a have Americans afraid of their own constitution at this point.

You might notice the above post has no opposition, which because it is legally sound, no matter how idealistic it might appear.  Here it is laid out a little more completely.

http://algoxy.com/poly/principal_party.html

----------


## ClydeCoulter

> "Hey Bundy...spoiler alert!"
> -native americans


Yeah, I think there were some cave men that got taken also, so that means we never get to stop the madness, because 12,000 BC.  /sarc

When, if not now?

----------


## devil21

Take it for what it's worth but this may be Agenda 21 related.  A21 implementation is ramping up around the country so it wouldn't surprise me if there's a connection here.




http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/ene..._projects.html

----------


## AuH20

They've seen an Apache attack helicopter in the AO?!?!!?!??!?!?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> They've seen an Apache attack helicopter in the AO?!?!!?!??!?!?


Why not?

*War on Us.*

Theye grenade us in our homes.

Theye cut old women in two with automatic weapons fire.

Theye roll out tanks to smash our homes.

Theye incinerate women and children with flamethrowers.

Why not a battle helicopter?

----------


## aGameOfThrones

> Why not?
> 
> *War on Us.*
> 
> Theye grenade us in our homes.
> 
> Theye cut old women in two with automatic weapons fire.
> 
> Theye roll out tanks to smash our homes.
> ...


Hey, they got to use them toys.

----------


## CPUd

Do the people buying the cows at the auction know if a cow came from his ranch?

----------


## CaseyJones

> Do the people buying the cows at the auction know if a cow came from his ranch?


they are branded

----------


## AuH20

Not the first time this has happened.




14:02 mark sums it all up.

----------


## fr33

> they are branded


But cattle buyers usually have a limited knowledge of which brand belongs to whoever. Usually they'll know the brands of some of their neighbors and of some of the larger more famous ranches.

In my job I receive and process a lot of cattle that are bought from sale barns. Most are not branded. 99.9% of the brands I do see, I know nothing about.

Sale barns in most states are required to have a brand inspector on site to know the brands, record them, and watch for theft. But they only notify a buyer about the brand after a potential theft is being investigated.

From Nevada's records in 2012, I can't find a brand registered to a Cliven Bundy: http://agri.nv.gov/Animals/Livestock/Brands/

----------


## kahless

> i agree with your point, but a distinction can be made regarding private property rights and voluntarily agreement with a government agency and later violating that agreement.  if he really owns the land as stated in the opening sentence in the article above, how many years did he pay tax on that land? these are the questions that aren't being answer adequately. i'd like to know who really owns what, can this issue be handled in court in front of an impartial jury rather than issuing a silly "range war"? seems most libertarians would prefer to settle this through non-violent means if possible.


He is saying it is state of Nevada "public land" and the federal government is violating the states sovereignty.  If you want to make the case that the feds actually own land it does not matter. His claim is his rights supersede BLM since he was there before they even existed.  His claim is  pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and water.

----------


## oyarde

> But cattle buyers usually have a limited knowledge of which brand belongs to whoever. Usually they'll know the brands of some of their neighbors and of some of the larger more famous ranches.
> 
> In my job I receive and process a lot of cattle that are bought from sale barns. Most are not branded. 99.9% of the brands I do see, I know nothing about.
> 
> Sale barns in most states are required to have a brand inspector on site to know the brands, record them, and watch for theft. But they only notify a buyer about the brand after a potential theft is being investigated.
> 
> From Nevada's records in 2012, I can't find a brand registered to a Cliven Bundy: http://agri.nv.gov/Animals/Livestock/Brands/


 I never branded , nor would I register a brand . We mark ears on all livestock  larger than fowl , you can tell if it is yours .

----------


## speciallyblend

hey the gop should take a stand and support this guy. when hell freezes over!!

----------


## oyarde

> hey the gop should take a stand and support this guy. when hell freezes over!!


You think he would find friends on the " other" side ?

----------


## fr33

> I never branded , nor would I register a brand . We mark ears on all livestock  larger than fowl , you can tell if it is yours .


You can but other people in the county or the next county over might not be able to.  Nowadays eartags with names and phone numbers are becoming popular. They occasionally get rubbed or ripped out but overall they are pretty good. Getting a phone call in the middle of the night about a calf being out on the highway is not good though LOL...

----------


## mad cow

> hey the gop should take a stand and support this guy. when hell freezes over!!


Luckily for him,stoned snow-boarders from Colorado are flocking west in droves to defend him from this outrage.

----------


## CaseyJones

> hey the gop should take a stand and support this guy. when hell freezes over!!


http://www.sacbee.com/2014/04/08/631...es-blm-in.html

----------


## Jamesiv1

Neither side has the moral high ground here:
Uncle Sam encourages mundanes to wipe out the indigenous peopleUncle Sam allows mundanes to string up barbed wire and claim the land as their ownGenerations of mundanes start thinking the land belongs themUncle Sam now wants the land, and tells the mundanes to take a hike

The Tax Man giveth, the Tax Man taketh away.

----------


## oyarde

> You can but other people in the county or the next county over might not be able to.  Nowadays eartags with names and phone numbers are becoming popular. They occasionally get rubbed or ripped out but overall they are pretty good. Getting a phone call in the middle of the night about a calf being out on the highway is not good though LOL...


 I know the West is so much more wide open , I would have to consider it there , probably still would not register though.

----------


## oyarde

> Neither side has the moral high ground here:
> Uncle Sam encourages mundanes to wipe out the indigenous peopleUncle Sam allows mundanes to string up barbed wire and claim the land as their ownGenerations of mundanes start thinking the land belongs themUncle Sam he now wants the land, and tells the mundanes to take a hike
> 
> The Tax Man giveth, the Tax Man taketh away.


 Well the Paiute were not always alone , they wiped out the white tribe that was there prior to them .

----------


## fr33

> Neither side has the moral high ground here:
> Uncle Sam encourages mundanes to wipe out the indigenous peopleUncle Sam allows mundanes to string up barbed wire and claim the land as their ownGenerations of mundanes start thinking the land belongs themUncle Sam he now wants the land, and tells the mundanes to take a hike
> 
> The Tax Man giveth, the Tax Man taketh away.


I get what you're saying but... 

IF Mr. Bundy's ancestors wiped out the indigenous people, is he responsible for that crime?

What if he's like me and his ancestors came over here long after that happened? Is he still responsible for a crime that nobody he's ever heard of did?

Even in the times of so-called "native tribes"; governments existed, aggression existed, and they likely traveled to that land as well.

----------


## Occam's Banana

> IF Mr. Bundy's ancestors wiped out the indigenous people, is he responsible for that crime?
> 
> What if he's like me and his ancestors came over here long after that happened? Is he still responsible for a crime that nobody he's ever heard of did?


Or what if he's like me and his ancestors were both indigenous and European?

This is why the whole "whose ancestors did what to whose ancestors" thing is just stupid & pointless ...

----------


## Christopher A. Brown

If there was a law saying American citizens could unify and organize to "alter or abolish" government that is as abusive as this, would any Americans consider using it or even discussing it?

----------


## oyarde

> Or what if he's like me and his ancestors were both indigenous and European?
> 
> This is why the whole "whose ancestors did what to whose ancestors" thing is just stupid & pointless ...


Oh , it is pointless , no doubt , except for Danke  , I think some of his ancestors tried to whip some of my ancestors and he should buy me some drinks.

----------


## Occam's Banana

> Oh , it is pointless , no doubt , except for Danke  , I think some of his ancestors tried to whip some of my ancestors and he should buy me some drinks.


Those damn vikings sticking their helmet horns in where they don't belong ...

----------


## devil21

> http://www.sacbee.com/2014/04/08/631...es-blm-in.html


Why is he an elected US SENATOR if all he can do is "lend his voice"?  No one elected him to talk.  They elected him to RESPOND!  This article is a bunch of $#@!.  All these elected politicians just talk but don't do anything.  While they're talking, over fine scotch, that man's cows were being stolen and protestors tazed.

----------


## tod evans

Nobody has asked the question;

"Why are the feds permitting this to play out online and in the media?"

This goes against their well established protocol of storm-trooping the place, killing the critters and beating the humans in order to be home in time for dinner...

----------


## jtap

> I don't know if this is the right battle to really rally behind. bundy was renting the land from the gov and stopped paying. he went into business with the Feds and  they changed the rules (shocking). who's surprised by this. again... why doesn't he buy his own land? was this ever his private property with documentation or a deed to back it up?


That's not the situation as I understand it.

From what I gather, environmentalists complained about the turtles being trampled by his cattle and threatened to sue and then the Goverment decided to get involved. They didn't seem to have a problem before this threatened lawsuit.

----------


## Jamesiv1

> I get what you're saying but... 
> 
> IF Mr. Bundy's ancestors wiped out the indigenous people, is he responsible for that crime?
> 
> What if he's like me and his ancestors came over here long after that happened? Is he still responsible for a crime that nobody he's ever heard of did?
> 
> Even in the times of so-called "native tribes"; governments existed, aggression existed, and they likely traveled to that land as well.


The problem is this "land ownership" concept, in my opinion.

How can man own what man did not create?

----------


## tod evans

> The problem is this "land ownership" concept, in my opinion.
> 
> How can man own what man did not create?


It all started by staking claims, doing improvements and then defending it with deadly force...

Kinda like what the feds are trying to do here.

----------


## ClydeCoulter

> The problem is this "land ownership" concept, in my opinion.
> 
> How can man own what man did not create?


Do you suggest that we live in portable homes, not plant gardens, etc?

Or perhaps let the government tell you where to be and when?

Say, I build a home, plant a garden, raise chickens....someone else says, I want that....

It's about the "use" of land.

----------


## limequat

This is kinda nuanced.  If liberty lovers are having trouble understanding, the average beer-swilling Joe is not going to get it.  
I'm hoping that Vin Suprynowicz has a new article on the way.

----------


## AuH20

http://www.glennbeck.com/2014/04/09/...fter-ranchers/

starts at 2:45

----------


## Dianne

> Im wondering when the feds became the _owners_ of anything.  Who did they pay for the land and who paid for it?  This isn't really about a rancher, at the core.  My tax dollars "paid" for this land and I don't care if his cows use it.  This is about the feds flexing their muscles to damage a non-corporate owned rancher who dared to infringe on the King's Land and disturb the King's Turtles.  Natural law will not be tolerated any more.  It's all corporate legal fiction "law" now.


I agree with you 100%.      One positive note is that FOX News has started covering this story, so that might bring more people out to the site in the next day or so.

----------


## Lucille

Oath Keepers to help with Bundy protest. 
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogsp...y-protest.html




> Folks,
> 
>     Sorry for the late start this morning. I was up quite late last night, speaking with a number of people very familiar with the situation on the ground at the Bundy Ranch in Nevada, including Stewart Rhodes. Oath Keepers is marshaling support and the following email explains what they are about and gives some instructions for folks attending the protest. They were forwarded to me with the comment: "I just got them in an email from Stewart. Feel free to share as you like. There should be a formal call to action and press release later today."
> 
>     Oath Keepers,
> 
>     We need a presence there immediately to help prevent the feds sparking another Ruby Ridge or Waco incident in the Bundy stand-off.
> [vid]
> Nevada State Rep. Michele Fiore . . . is on site right now at the protest site outside the Bundy ranch, and she is helping us assemble a coalition of Nevada state legislators. We are also working with WA State Rep Matt Shea to put together a delegation of other Western State Representatives to go there to support Rep. Fiore and her coalition, and we are working with Sheriff Mack to bring a delegation of current serving CSPOA Sheriffs to stand vigil there. We need Oath Keepers to also show up and stand vigil and support this family and the patriot legislators and sheriffs who are taking the lead in defending them. This is critical. The goal is to stand vigil to prevent another Waco or Ruby Ridge, and to put pressure on the Nevada Governor to honor the oath he took by standing up for this family and for the state of Nevada.
> ...


I'll be calling my state reps to go. 

A Nevadan gives the background in the comments here: http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogsp...om-nevada.html

----------


## AuH20

> Oath Keepers to help with Bundy protest. 
> http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogsp...y-protest.html
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be calling my state reps to go. 
> 
> A Nevadan gives the background in the comments here: http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogsp...om-nevada.html



Here:




> Bundy's ranch was established in 1877. His family purchased it later, in the 1880's. But when they did, they had to PAY for the water and forage rights.
> 
> *After the 1934 act they continued to pay grazing fees and make improvements up until the 1990's.
> 
> Somewhere along the way the Bureau of Land Management was created. I don't know what year.
> 
> Around 1990 or so they told him that he could no longer graze more than 150 of his 600 or so head of cattle there.
> 
> He told them to pound sand and kept paying his fees and grazing his cattle.
> ...

----------


## MelissaCato

> That's not the situation as I understand it.
> 
> From what I gather, environmentalists complained about the turtles being trampled by his cattle and threatened to sue and then the Goverment decided to get involved. They didn't seem to have a problem before this threatened lawsuit.


That's funny. Last year the environmentalists wanted to kill all the tortoises.

----------


## klamath

Having been through these type of court cases I can tell you this. When a government "expert" witness (Young college punk that gets a degree in ecology) steps up in court and testifies that cattle are killing turtles the government has established a prima facie case that cattle kill turtles. The Borden of proof shifts to you to prove  that YOU are not killing turtles. This concept that "innocent until proven guilty" is absolutely out the door in administrative law court.

----------


## AuH20

> Having been through these type of court cases I can tell you this. When a government "expert" witness (Young college punk that gets a degree in ecology) steps up in court and testifies that cattle are killing turtles the government has established a prima facie case that cattle kill turtles. The Borden of proof shifts to you to prove  that YOU are not killing turtles. This concept that "innocent until proven guilty" is absolutely out the door in administrative law court.


It doesn't even matter about expert testimony any longer. Did you hear the nonsense Mr. Hage was subjected too? After he won two landmark cases against the government, a DOJ attorney arrogantly told Hage that the feds would never settle because the 9th Circuit is their court! In other words, they own it, if you get the drift. This has gotten way past the facade of 'law and order.' It's stockpile your ammo time.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> The problem is this "land ownership" concept, in my opinion.
> 
> How can man own what man did not create?


Well, you're SOL then, because the whole concept of individual liberty stems from private property ownership.

----------


## klamath

> It doesn't even matter about expert testimony any longer. Did you hear the nonsense Mr. Hage was subjected too? After he won two landmark cases against the government, a DOJ attorney arrogantly told Hage that the feds would never settle because the 9th Circuit is their court! In other words, they own it, if you get the drift. This has gotten way past the facade of 'law and order.' It's stockpile your ammo time.


Unfortunately That is nothing new. Ask the Cherokee Indians if a SC ruling mattered to Andy Jackson? The modis operendi of federal agencies is to fight it to the supreme court but if they lose it doesn't matter, as in their mind they just lost that ONE case. The will continue to do what they are doing and force every single person have to fight that exact same battle through to the SC. Most people cannot afford it and fold. Overall it is a win for the federal agencies. As long as urban dwellers that hold the majority of the electoral power view rural dwellers as ignorant, backwards, environment killing scum those agencies will continue to have that power. They are there at the will of the majority of electorate.

----------


## AuH20

Alex Jones with Cliven Bundy. Starts at 1H:13.

----------


## pcosmar

> It's stockpile your ammo time.


No.

It is use it or lose it time.

You don't stockpile your ammo or bury your guns, You use them ,, in the manner intended.

If not,, then they are no use at all.

These feds need to be confronted with a hundred rifles.. and if they bring more troops.. then a thousand rifles should meet them.

----------


## Tod



----------


## erowe1

> IF Mr. Bundy's ancestors wiped out the indigenous people, is he responsible for that crime?


No. But I do see a legitimate question in whether or not he really has a moral right to claim ownership of all the land he claims to own. I certainly don't think the government has a right to it. But along with that, the government doesn't have a right to be the arbiter of who does own it, and if this guy's claim is based on the idea that some government of a former generation did have that rightful authority, then why doesn't the government of this generation still have it?

I don't know anything about the details of this situation or who really owns what. I'm content to know this much: the government is in the wrong. Whatever else can be said, that axiom never fails.

----------


## klamath

> No. But I do see a legitimate question in whether or not he really has a moral right to claim ownership of all the land he claims to own. I certainly don't think the government has a right to it. But along with that, the government doesn't have a right to be the arbiter of who does own it, and if this guy's claim is based on the idea that some government of a former generation did have that rightful authority, then why doesn't the government of this generation still have it?
> 
> I don't know anything about the details of this situation or who really owns what. I'm content to know this much: the government is in the wrong. Whatever else can be said, that axiom never fails.


I don't think he claims ownership of the land just a long established right to use a small part of it. It is about the same as whether you have the right to walk across a national forest. Does a cow spread out miles apart in a vast valley cause irreparable  harm to the land especially when it has been done for well over a hundred years? More like it has nothing to do with turtles being killed but with an agenda the environmentalist left has against the entire meat production industry and to use any means necessary to kill it. research what most of the environmentalist organization think about man eating meat.

----------


## Thor

> 


http://www.lvmpd.com/AboutLVMPD/Offi...7/Default.aspx




> The Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department is committed to our mission to protect the community through prevention, partnership and professional service. That commitment and dedication extends to the millions of visitors that Las Vegas plays host to each year. I'm devoted to making what I believe is the best police department in the country even better.
> 
> As you browse through our website, you'll notice some interactive features such as crime mapping and sex offender notifications, as well as progressive features such as Twitter and Facebook. These tools allow us to further two of our goals. First is to initiate timely and open communication and second is to effectively use innovation and technology. Youll also find information about tourist safety and Homeland Security, which has been established to ensure that Las Vegas remains the safest tourist destination in the world. If youre interested in employment with the LVMPD, visit us at www.protectthecity.com to see what it takes to join the force.
> 
> Thank you for choosing to spend your time with us, and feel free to contact our department with any questions, comments or concerns. Our phone number is 702-828-3394 or email us at pio@lvmpd.com.


Let's contact the sheriff and tell him to do his job!

----------


## CaseyJones

‘Expect To See A Band Of Soldiers’: Militia Members Arrive At Nevada Ranch

http://lasvegas.cbslocal.com/2014/04...-nevada-ranch/




> Militia groups are rallying behind a rancher whose cattle are being seized by the federal government.
> 
> The Las Vegas Review-Journal reports that two militia members from Montana and one from Utah have arrived at Cliven Bundy’s ranch.
> 
> “We need to be the barrier between the oppressed and the tyrants,” Ryan Payne of the West Mountain Rangers told the Review-Journal. “Expect to see a band of soldiers.”
> 
> Payne said that militias from New Hampshire, Texas and Florida are likely to join and stand with Bundy and stay at his ranch.
> 
> “They all tell me they are in the process of mobilizing as we speak,” Payne told the Review-Journal, adding that hundreds of militia members are expected.
> ...

----------


## JK/SEA

> Josh Tolley will be giving live coverage tomorrow 9-11am with breaking news from a Bundy about a Change in the Stand while it takes place.
> 
> Share this with your friends!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (reposting here also)


watching....nothing.....whats up?...its 9:15am now.

JoshTolley.com

hello?

----------


## Tod

> No. But I do see a legitimate question in whether or not he really has a moral right to claim ownership of all the land he claims to own. I certainly don't think the government has a right to it. But along with that, the government doesn't have a right to be the arbiter of who does own it, and if this guy's claim is based on the idea that some government of a former generation did have that rightful authority, then why doesn't the government of this generation still have it?
> 
> I don't know anything about the details of this situation or who really owns what. I'm content to know this much: the government is in the wrong. Whatever else can be said, that axiom never fails.



He does not claim to own the land.  This is open range and his great (or is that great great?) grandfather was the first to graze cattle there in 1877 establishing grazing rights, water rights, access rights, range improvement rights, and some others.  The land is, according to him, owned by the state of Nevada.  Details in AJ's interview with Cliven Bundy.

----------


## Tod

> watching....nothing.....whats up?...its 9:15am now.
> 
> JoshTolley.com
> 
> hello?



I think it might be central time and the thing is over now, but I couldn't find it either.  Maybe he'll post video later.

----------


## ClydeCoulter

The Josh Tolley thing didn't seem to work out.  It was 9-11 CST, so 10-12 EST.  But it all seemed to be a bunch of callers talking about Agenda 21, etc....  He never made contact with anyone at the scene (that I know of).  And, I didn't hear him explain this "New Stance for the Bundy's" that he promised to divulge yesterday.

_Yep, and good luck finding his live broadcast.  I had to ask someone on twitter to get it....I'll see if I can find it in case anyone is interested in the future._

Thanks to "Pam I Am"

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Oathkeepers call to action
> 
> volunteers and donations needed
> 
> http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2014/04/...anch-standoff/


Step up men.

Maybe we all are not ready to put it on the front line just yet, but some *are*, and *can* and they deserve our support.

OK is a stand-up operation.

*Confirmation number: 0ET15039XV67xxxxx
Donation amount: $100.00 USD*

----------


## Danke

> Too many tyrannical states to cross with weapons in tow. I'm not sure I'm in. Being in the Empire State has some major disadvantages.


Wow, no kidding:

http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/artic...portation.aspx

----------


## Danke

> And I would show up with an FN/FAL.
> 
> God damn the tyrants.


I was pretty good a strafing back in the day.  If someone will sneak me in to a flight line at Nellis...

----------


## pcosmar

> Bundys have been receiving calls of support from Afghanistan.


Well,, guys there know "how it is done".

----------


## CaseyJones

> Step up men.
> 
> Maybe we all are not ready to put it on the front line just yet, but some *are*, and *can* and they deserve our support.
> 
> OK is a stand-up operation.
> 
> *Confirmation number: 0ET15039XV67xxxxx
> Donation amount: $100.00 USD*


hey since Tods offline please make a thread for that and I will promote it

----------


## Lucille

CaseyJones, did you find a ride yet?

I emailed Oath Keepers and asked if they would start a FB group like the Million Vets March did, and maybe the Truckers would help on this too (they're talking about it on their page).  That would really help people connect and make arrangements to get there.

----------


## mad cow

Your receipt number for this payment is: 5553-8678-5003-XXXX.
We'll send a confirmation email to XXXXXXX. This transaction will appear on your statement as PayPal *OATH KEEPER.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> hey since Tods offline please make a thread for that and I will promote it


Done

----------


## CaseyJones

> Done


and promoted

----------


## CaseyJones

> CaseyJones, did you find a ride yet?
> 
> I emailed Oath Keepers and asked if they would start a FB group like the Million Vets March did, and maybe the Truckers would help on this too (they're talking about it on their page).  That would really help people connect and make arrangements to get there.


no I have not, keep us updated

----------


## Anti Federalist

> and promoted


Thanks for cleaning up the headline, I batted it out quickly.

----------


## CaseyJones

ya I wanted the keywords in it

----------


## CaseyJones

ton of guests viewing the donation thread now so hopefully more donations being made than recorded in the thread

----------


## ClydeCoulter

Update today from Santilli.  

Evidently, a person in real estate says that it's about weapons grade resources to be mined, etc...

----------


## DamianTV

Another couple of updates:

*Armed Federal Agents Taser Bundy Ranch Protesters* 



---

*20 Cowboys Break Fed Blockade in Nevada, Retrieve Cattle*




> Ammon Bundy, the son of besieged Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy, told Infowars reporter David Knight today around 20 cowboys went on land claimed by the U.S. Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and retrieved cattle.
> 
> We gathered about 30 head, said Bundy. We did have a small confrontation with them, but they didnt have the forces to do a whole lot. They couldnt mobilize fast enough and we were able to gather those cattle and get them to the ranch.
> 
> Cliven Bundy and his family are currently engaged in a standoff with the BLM over a long standing refusal to acknowledge a 1993 modification to grazing rights on land that Bundy asserts has been in his family since 1870. On Saturday, hundreds of federal officials, aided by helicopters, low flying aircraft and hired cowboys, began rounding up Bundys cattle in northeastern Clark County.
> 
> Bundys dispute with the feds escalated yesterday when several of his supporters were assaulted by BLM officials. The BLM is currently rounding up Bundys cattle in order to enforce a regulation in order to protect an endangered desert tortoise after 600,000 acres of public land was reclassified as federal property.
> 
> During that confrontation, Ammon Bundy, was tasered. His sister, a cancer victim, and a pregnant woman were assaulted by BLM agents.
> ...


---

*Cliven Bundy Calls on Sheriff to Start Arresting BLM Feds*

----------


## AuH20

Corporate mercs? They hired mercenaries to do their bidding? Jesus... We're paying for this $#@!?

----------


## DamianTV

> Corporate mercs? They hired mercenaries to do their bidding? Jesus... We're paying for this $#@!?


Paying would imply that our cooperation is voluntary...

----------


## twomp

GO GO GO Oathkeepers!

----------


## Deborah K

Where is Vegas Patriot????  He's an Oathkeeper.

----------


## Deborah K

> Nobody has asked the question;
> 
> "Why are the feds permitting this to play out online and in the media?"
> 
> This goes against their well established protocol of storm-trooping the place, killing the critters and beating the humans in order to be home in time for dinner...


Looking for a flashpoint?  Or just incredibly stupid and arrogant.

----------


## Deborah K

> http://www.lvmpd.com/AboutLVMPD/Offi...7/Default.aspx
> 
> 
> 
> Let's contact the sheriff and tell him to do his job!


I'll call first thing tomorrow, and I'll get my homeys on it too.

----------


## ClydeCoulter

*Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.*

----------


## ClydeCoulter

One of the Bundy's explain about the infrastructure (water ways and tanks) that are being destroyed by the BLM, because those pipes and tanks are what establishes their grazing rights....

----------


## TaftFan

Trying to help out via my FB page:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Bring...68187893258350

----------


## Jamesiv1

> Well, you're SOL then, because the whole concept of individual liberty stems from private property ownership.


hmmm.... you may be right. Ultimately, we're probably all SOL - or at least most of us.

I "joined" the Liberty movement because I believe in the Golden Rule, the fight against "the man" and against government tyranny.

But land ownership is some silly-ass bull$#@!.  If I've got a bigger gun than you, then you're either dead or gone and the land is now mine.

It's been like that for a long time, no doubt - starting with whoever arrived second (or third or fourth).

Probably going to require a major event that will produce a paradigm shift that will give humanity an opportunity to elevate itself to a higher plane.

Middle East is looking good for that.

----------


## chudrockz

> Trying to help out via my FB page:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/pages/Bring...68187893258350


Very nice. Liked the page and shared it. Thanks!

----------


## Deborah K

Ripped this off from your FB page, Taftfan!

----------


## LibertyEagle

For James.

The Property Basis of Rights

----------


## Tod

Stefan gets in on the discussion:

----------


## CaseyJones

http://freebeacon.com/issues/blm-ran...nch-emergency/

BLM Rangers Brought in From Out of State for Nevada Ranch ‘Emergency’




> Armed Rangers were brought in from out of state by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) to assist in security surrounding the Bundy Ranch, according to the family.
> 
> A heated confrontation on Wednesday resulted in Cliven Bundy’s son Ammon being tasered by BLM officials and a 57-year-old protester being shoved to the ground.
> 
> Stetsy Bundy Cox, Cliven’s daughter, told the Washington Free Beacon that some of the rangers had Oregon and California license plates.
> 
> “You know, some of these guys don’t even know why they’re here,” she said. “A few people have talked to them and they got called in here on an emergency feed and they didn’t know what it was for, it just said they had to be here.”
> 
> “They’re almost like a hired gun,” Cox said. “Because what they’re supposed to do is they each have a road, and are told to stay on that road, and they’re supposed to keep people off that road, whatever means possible. That’s their job. They don’t even know how many cows have been gathered.”
> ...

----------


## Carson

> Update today from Santilli.  
> 
> Evidently, a person in real estate says that it's about weapons grade resources to be mined, etc...



With the way the central banking system is set up they can print up what ever it takes to get their way...and all of our everything.

----------


## Warrior_of_Freedom

snipers, helicopters, and heavy equipment to protect $#@!ING TURTLES?
First of all, unless a cow suffocates a turtle in $#@!, it's not a danger.
We know they're full of $#@!, there's an ulterior motive.

----------


## Carson

I was just thinking this was herding people in to the cities as part of agenda 21. 

We are systematically being ushered out of what was once the public's property protected for us by the government. It seems we've been sold out.

Sold out in so many ways. Maybe the land shouldn't be the biggest wound but it is increasingly becoming important as the entire globe of people are becoming, people without a country, in their own homelands.

----------


## TaftFan

Is Alex Jones going to be going with his bullhorn? Serious question.

----------


## CaseyJones

> Is Alex Jones going to be going with his bullhorn? Serious question.


I fear so

----------


## TaftFan

> I fear so


I could see him causing all hell to break lose.

----------


## donnay

> Where is Vegas Patriot????  He's an Oathkeeper.



He's probably already out there.

----------


## donnay

> I could see him causing all hell to break lose.



He already has boots on the ground and they are doing a damn good job reporting the TRUTH.

----------


## TaftFan

> He already has boots on the ground and they are doing a damn good job reporting the TRUTH.


Which is great. And I would love for him to bullhorn. But I could just see him chest bumping some officer and it would go down hill from there...

----------


## JK/SEA

everyone out there needs a bullhorn.

blow their $#@!in ears out...

----------


## oyarde

> Your receipt number for this payment is: 5553-8678-5003-XXXX.
> We'll send a confirmation email to XXXXXXX. This transaction will appear on your statement as PayPal *OATH KEEPER.


When the time comes for me , I would rather just have your company .

----------


## VegasPatriot

> Where is Vegas Patriot????  He's an Oathkeeper.


I just got back from the Bundy ranch... I was there for about 6-8 hours  today, but did not see too much happening.  There were rumors that three  people were arrested late this afternoon in Overton... but from what I  heard they were ticketed and released.  One of them was ruffed up a bit,  I watched him giving an interview so I'm guessing there will be video  out soon.

----------


## Thor

> I just got back from the Bundy ranch... I was there for about 6-8 hours  today, but did not see too much happening.  There were rumors that three  people were arrested late this afternoon in Overton... but from what I  heard they were ticketed and released.  One of them was ruffed up a bit,  I watched him giving an interview so I'm guessing there will be video  out soon.


How many BLM / Fed / hired cowboy help / snipers, etc... versus Bundy family & cowboys / supporters / Militia / Oathkeepers.

----------


## VegasPatriot

> He's probably already out there.


Busted  I guess you know me by now.  I can't make it out there tomorrow, but I will be there all weekend.  Stewart Rhodes just made it out there and will be there all weekend as well... maybe longer.

----------


## donnay

> Busted  I guess you know me by now.  I can't make it out there tomorrow, but I will be there all weekend.  Stewart Rhodes just made it out there and will be there all weekend as well... maybe longer.


I knew you would be there!   I will keep all of you in my prayers.

----------


## VegasPatriot

> How many BLM / Fed / hired cowboy help / snipers, etc... versus Bundy family & cowboys / supporters / Militia / Oathkeepers.


I did not see many Feds at all (about 100-200 Bundy supporters)... there were rumors going around that the Feds are staying in Mesquite and have over 100 vehicles at one of the hotels.  At about 5:00 this evening while at the Bundy ranch we heard the BLM was on their way... but they did not show by 9PM (which is when I left).

----------


## jclay2

> I did not see many Feds at all (about 100-200 Bundy supporters)... there were rumors going around that the Feds are staying in Mesquite and have over 100 vehicles at one of the hotels.  At about 5:00 this evening while at the Bundy ranch we heard the BLM was on their way... but they did not show by 9PM (which is when I left).


I am sure they are waiting for the camera crews so they can go take Bundy down with style a la Waco.

----------


## Weston White

Could there be any coincidence that the feds started this guff just prior to April 19th; and the 21st remembrance of Waco.

I truly hope the officials and sheriff steps in and kicks those federal enforcers straight the hell out or at the very least serves them with an injunction for the time being.

Although I do wonder why the majority of Nevada belongs to the United States Government?

----------


## Weston White

> Is Alex Jones going to be going with his bullhorn? Serious question.


No, David Knight is there right now though.  Alex said he would get way to upset if he did go.  (Also Infowars will be covering the upcoming Boston marathon live.)

----------


## CPUd

> Could there be any coincidence that the feds started this guff just prior to April 19th; and the 21st remembrance of Waco.
> 
> I truly hope the officials and sheriff steps in and kicks those federal enforcers straight the hell out or at the very least serves them with an injunction for the time being.
> 
> Although I do wonder why the majority of Nevada belongs to the United States Government?


When Nevada became a state, land that was not previously allocated was given to the federal govt, and part of the deal was that that land couldn't be taxed by Nevada.

It's in their constitution (see the section "Ordinance"):
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/const/nvconst.html#Art10

----------


## GunnyFreedom



----------


## Weston White

> I absolutely cannot believe we stood for this horse$#@!!!  The First Amendment area is on all public land.  How dare they mark off some little area and tell me that is the only place I can say what I damn want to!!!!!!!!!!!


"The First Amendment is Not an Area"

Ranchers son describes arrest in protest of federal cattle roundup

----------


## jclay2

> When Nevada became a state, land that was not previously allocated was given to the federal govt, and part of the deal was that that land couldn't be taxed by Nevada.
> 
> It's in their constitution (see the section "Ordinance"):
> http://www.leg.state.nv.us/const/nvconst.html#Art10


They should pass a law taking back all non military occupied land. I mean 90%+ federally owned is insane.

----------


## CPUd

I think you can still go out there and get 320 acres, in the old days you would have to survey, dig an exploratory well and/or put in an irrigation system, but now there is a lot more red tape.  BLM estimates it would take around $200,000 for everything to be done.



Here is a paper that offers a good explanation of the property rights under the homestead acts, and reversals in federal land policy:

Gary D. Libecap, "From Private Property to Government Ownership: Federal Land Policy and the General Revision Act"
http://econ.arizona.edu/docs/Working...0/WP_90-28.pdf

----------


## Weston White

> Environmentalists are praising the governments forceful actions, which are being taken to protect the desert tortoise. Were heartened and thankful that the agencies are finally living up to their stewardship duty, said Rob Mrowka,


Perhaps they should start realizing libertarian-constitutionalists as an endangered species of humans; thus, resulting in a grave conflict with their actions or at least turning the question into one of who takes on the higher precedence the humans or tortoises?

----------


## CPUd

Just hit CNN.com:



> (CNN) -- A 20-year dispute between a Nevada rancher and federal rangers over illegal cattle grazing erupted into an Old West-style showdown on the open range this week, even prompting self-proclaimed members of militia groups from across the country to join the rancher in fighting what they say is U.S. "tyranny."
> 
> What began as a legal fight between longtime rancher Cliven Bundy and the U.S. Bureau of Land Management has escalated as Bundy has refused to keep his cattle off the federal land, and the government has responded by beginning roundups of the cows.
> 
> A confrontation teetered on violence Wednesday when Bundy family members and dozens of supporters angrily confronted a group of rangers holding Tasers and barking dogs on leashes near Bunkerville, about 80 miles northeast of Las Vegas.
> 
> Federal officials say a police dog was kicked and officers were assaulted.
> 
> Bundy family members say they were thrown to the ground or jolted with a Taser.
> ...



http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/10/us/nev...own/index.html

----------


## tod evans

> Just hit CNN.com:


Don't read the comments with your coffee!

----------


## devil21

> I was just thinking this was herding people in to the cities as part of agenda 21. 
> 
> We are systematically being ushered out of what was once the public's property protected for us by the government. It seems we've been sold out.
> 
> Sold out in so many ways. Maybe the land shouldn't be the biggest wound but it is increasingly becoming important as the entire globe of people are becoming, people without a country, in their own homelands.


"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered." - TJ

----------


## Danke

> snipers, helicopters, and heavy equipment to protect $#@!ING TURTLES?
> First of all, unless a cow suffocates a turtle in $#@!, it's not a danger.
> We know they're full of $#@!, there's an ulterior motive.


Yep:  http://worldtruth.tv/blm-fracking-ra...acking-leases/

----------


## osan

> http://freebeacon.com/issues/blm-ran...nch-emergency/
> 
> BLM Rangers Brought in From Out of State for Nevada Ranch ‘Emergency’


From your quoted passage:




> “‘Well, well,’ and he goes, ‘I don’t even want to be here. Do you think my grandfather’s proud of me? *You think I like this*? You think this is fun for me?’”
> 
> “Then what are you doing here?” Cox asked him.
> 
> “He said, *‘It’s my job.’*”


This raises many possible points of explanation:


He lies, really does like it.The school system failed him MISERABLYHe has never heard of the Nuremburg trials (see point 2)He doesn't give a damn about the Nuremberg trials (see point 1)Is a wholesale coward, if you believe the part about grampsTells the truth, revealing the depth of his F.A.I.L (Fear, Avarice, Ignorance, Lassitude)

That all said, we had friends over last night for dinner and I was told militias are converging on the location.  Is that so?  If so, perhaps there indeed is hope for America yet.  I hope and pray it is indeed the case and I hope they are armed and ready and I hope not a shot be fired but that BLM retreats in toto, tail between its legs.


Answer to my own question:

http://beforeitsnews.com/blogging-ci...h-2452286.html

----------


## limequat

> I did not see many Feds at all (about 100-200 Bundy supporters)... there were rumors going around that *the Feds are staying in Mesquite and have over 100 vehicles at one of the hotels*.  At about 5:00 this evening while at the Bundy ranch we heard the BLM was on their way... but they did not show by 9PM (which is when I left).



If this is true, then it would only take one wacko bird with a kitchen knife to go slash 200 tires and demobilize the entire party.  I hope the dear feds have planned for this contingency.

----------


## jtap

> From your quoted passage:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				“‘Well, well,’ and he goes, ‘I don’t even want to be here. Do you think my grandfather’s proud of me? You think I like this? You think this is fun for me?’”
> ...



And that is why I have zero respect for people that think that way. The fact that they don't realize they are responsible 100% for what they do "in their job" shows me they can't think for themselves. Utterly worthless.

----------


## tod evans

> And that is why I have zero respect for people that think that way. The fact that they don't realize they are responsible 100% for what they do "in their job" shows me they can't think. Utterly worthless.


Even scarier are those who believe they are undertaking their sacred "duty" to the government...

----------


## mrsat_98

> Even scarier are those who believe they are undertaking their sacred "duty" to the government...


copsuckers ?

----------


## tod evans

> copsuckers ?


Worse, the "copsucker" worships governments enforcers these folks worship government itself....

----------


## Philhelm

> Worse, the "copsucker" worships governments enforcers these folks worship government itself....


They should be shown that their false gods can bleed.

----------


## osan

> And that is why I have zero respect for people that think that way. The fact that they don't realize they are responsible 100% for what they do "in their job" shows me they _can't_ think for themselves. Utterly worthless.


Won't.

Big.difference

----------


## AuH20

http://danaloeschradio.com/the-real-...e-bundy-ranch/




> A tortoise isnt the reason why BLM is harassing a 67 year-old rancher. They want his land. The tortoise wasnt of concern when Harry Reid worked BLM to literally change the boundaries of the tortoises habitat to accommodate the development of his top donor, Harvey Whittemore. Whittemore was convicted of illegal campaign contributions to Senator Reid. Reids former senior adviser is now the head of BLM. Reid is accused of using the new BLM chief as a puppet to control Nevada land (already over 84% of which is owned by the federal government) and pay back special interests. BLM has proven that theyve a situational concern for the desert tortoise as theyve had no problem waiving their rules concerning wind or solar power development. Clearly these developments have vastly affected a tortoise habitat more than a century-old, quasi-homesteading grazing area. If only Clive Bundy were a big Reid donor.
> 
> BLM has also tried to argue that the rules have changed, long after Bundy claims he secured rights and paid his dues to Clark County, Nevada. BLM says they supersede whatever agreement Bundy had prior; they demanded that he reduce his living, his thousand-some-odd head of cattle down to a tiny herd of 150. Its easy for the government to grant itself powers of overreach, but it doesnt make it right. Many bad things are done in the name of unjust laws. Just look at Obamacare. This heavy-handed tactic has run the other ranchers from the area and now Bundy is the last one. Hes the last one because he stood up to the federal government.
> 
> So why does BLM want to run Bundy off this land and is Reid connected?

----------


## tod evans

> Won't.
> 
> Big.difference



Some of them actually may not have the facilities to countermand their programming...

This in no way excuses them though!

----------


## pcosmar

> “Then what are you doing here?” Cox asked him.
> 
> “He said, ‘*It’s my job.*’”

----------


## Lucille

> Update today from Santilli.  
> 
> Evidently, a person in real estate says that it's about weapons grade resources to be mined, etc...


Why am I not surprised.

FB group:  https://www.facebook.com/support.cliven.bundy

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Don't read the comments with your coffee!


Nah, not going to do that...

I know what I'm going to see.

$#@! _Boobus._ 

We really should cease caring what he thinks or does.

----------


## Thor

> Why am I not surprised.
> 
> FB group:  https://www.facebook.com/support.cliven.bundy


Everyone in Las Vegas, Nevada needs to be at the Sheriff's to protest with us! If you can make it please be there!

Starts at 2 P.M

If you cannot make it and you still want to help with this you can blow up their phones @ the following numbers!
Phone: 702-455-3500
(702) 828-‐3231

The address:
Clark County Sheriff Douglas Gillespie
LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT 400 S. Martin L. King Blvd.
Las Vegas, Nevada 89106

Other things you can do is visit our page @http://www.bundyranch.blogspot.com/p/contact-list-attorney-general-state-on.html

Call those numbers and tell them how you feel until they try to do something!

Once again Thank you for your support!
#RangeWar #BundyRanch #ClivenBundy

----------


## jtap

> Won't.
> 
> Big.difference


Hard to know for sure if it's a choice or not. I don't know what it's like. I do agree it could be a choice. They sure like to act like they don't have one though.

----------


## Deborah K

The story is making the rounds on FNC:

----------


## Lucille

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5487307

----------


## Dr.3D

> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5487307


When I was a kid, we called it the "Department of the Inferior."

----------


## Thor

BLM = Big Lying Maggots

----------


## CaseyJones

this is back as the headline of drudge

----------


## tod evans

*County Commissioner Says Bundy Supporters “Better Have Funeral Plans”*

http://www.infowars.com/county-commi...funeral-plans/

Clark County Commissioner Tom Collins has caused outrage by remarking that Utahns planning to travel to Nevada to support Cliven Bundy in his standoff against the feds “better have funeral plans”.

The comments were revealed by Darin Bushman, a Piute County, Utah, commissioner after he spoke with Collins about Utah ranchers and his colleagues on the County Commission complaining about tactics used by Bureau of Land Management agents during their seizure of Bundy’s cattle in southern Nevada.
“I was just told by commissioner Collins of Clark County NV that all of us folks from Utah are a bunch of “inbred bastards” and if we are coming to Clark County NV to support Cliven Bundy we all “better have funeral plans”. We should “turn our asses around on mind our own f-ing business”. Now there’s some classy leadership for you,” wrote Bushman on his official Facebook page.

More at link

----------


## Deborah K

> *County Commissioner Says Bundy Supporters “Better Have Funeral Plans”*
> 
> http://www.infowars.com/county-commi...funeral-plans/
> 
> Clark County Commissioner Tom Collins has caused outrage by remarking that Utahns planning to travel to Nevada to support Cliven Bundy in his standoff against the feds “better have funeral plans”.
> 
> The comments were revealed by Darin Bushman, a Piute County, Utah, commissioner after he spoke with Collins about Utah ranchers and his colleagues on the County Commission complaining about tactics used by Bureau of Land Management agents during their seizure of Bundy’s cattle in southern Nevada.
> “I was just told by commissioner Collins of Clark County NV that all of us folks from Utah are a bunch of “inbred bastards” and if we are coming to Clark County NV to support Cliven Bundy we all “better have funeral plans”. We should “turn our asses around on mind our own f-ing business”. Now there’s some classy leadership for you,” wrote Bushman on his official Facebook page.
> 
> More at link


When you call the first number in Thor's post - above - they direct you to Collins' office where you get a recording and are told to leave your name, number, and message.

----------


## AuH20

At least the county commissioner is honest. He know what the overarching agenda is.

----------


## Thor

From the "official" Bundy Facebook page:




> ATTENTION ATTENTION ATTENTION
> 
> Many of you have been asking for a better way to keep informed and know what you can do to help.
> 
> We love Facebook but it is not effective for getting the word out when we really need help. There are so many messages here things are getting lost.
> 
> If you go to http://bit.do/bundy you can sign up to get Emails and Text messages.
> 
> You will get messages directly from the Bundy's.
> ...



I subscribed and got this email:




> Thank you for your support.
> 
> We will try to use this to keep you informed of important development and things you can do to help us create a bettre world for our children and generations to come.
> 
> Watch your Email and Text messages. We will try to keep you infoemed but we will not be sending a constant barage of emails to you.
> 
> In the meantime PLEASE follow us on facebook and join the facebook
> 
> We only have one official page.  While we love all the support on the other Facebook pages and groups we only have one page.
> ...



So there are these FB pages:
https://www.facebook.com/bundyranch  * "official"
https://www.facebook.com/support.cliven.bundy
https://www.facebook.com/ClivenBundy

And probably more....

----------


## AuH20

The game is afoot. Johnny Reb has gone operational.

----------


## Lucille

Will Grigg, finally.  (I can't believe LRC has had so little on this.)

The Cliven Bundy standoff: Wounded Knee revisited?
http://rationalreview.news-digests.com/archives/154861



> "Cattle became the successor to buffalo in the late 1860s and early 1870s. That was the era when the ancestors of Cliven Bundy settled in what was to become the State of Nevada, and began to graze cattle in what would later be called the Bunkerville Grazing Allotment. The Bundy family made peaceful and productive use of that allotment for more than 120 years, mixing their labor with the land to create original wealth. Unfortunately, the Bundy family -- like the American Indians -- had been living on a reservation: They were never allowed to exercise ownership of their grazing 'allotment,' in much the same way that Indians were not permitted to have clear title to their lands. The land on which the Bundy family raised cattle was 'owned' by the government, and the Bundys were required to pay rent -- in the form of grazing fees -- for the 'privilege' of making productive use of it."


http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com...nded-knee.html




> Cattle became the successor to buffalo in the late 1860s and early 1870s. That was the era when the ancestors of Cliven Bundy settled in what was to become the State of Nevada, and began to graze cattle in what would later be called the Bunkerville Grazing Allotment. The Bundy family made peaceful and productive use of that allotment for more than 120 years, mixing their labor with the land to create original wealth.
> 
> Unfortunately, the Bundy family -- like the American Indians  had been living on a reservation: They were never allowed to exercise ownership of their grazing allotment, in much the same way that Indians were not permitted to have clear title to their lands. The land on which the Bundy family raised cattle was owned by the government, and the Bundys were required to pay rent  in the form of grazing fees  for the privilege of making productive use of it. The public-land grazing system has been described as the nations most conspicuous and extensive flirtation with socialism  except, perhaps, for the Indian Reservation System. 
> 
>  Indians whose lands were supposedly protected through treaties invariably discovered that the phrase in perpetuity means pending the discovery of something valuable on the land that is desired by a politically favored constituency. The desired commodity could be gold  as the Nez Perce learned after their homeland in the luxuriant Wallowa Valley, having been reduced to a tiny, barren tract, was seized from them by General O.O. Howard.  It could be fertile farm lands on the banks of the Niobrara River, as the Poncas discovered when they were forcibly relocated to Oklahoma.
> 
> Similar adjustments were made to practically every Indian band or tribe that signed a treaty in good faith with Washington  only to find themselves reduced to destitution when Washington withheld promised annuities and rations, and then evicted from their lands when it suited Leviathans interests. The high and holy purpose of Manifest Destiny nullified the property rights of Indians and any treaty obligations that would inhibit Washington's drive for continental expansion.
> [...]
>  Although the BLM  like other agencies involved in administering Washington's illegal colonial occupation of western lands  has been influenced by biocentrism, it's not likely that its upper echelons are filled with True Believers in anything other than the Bureaucratic Prime Directive: Maintain what we have, and expand where we can.
> ...

----------


## chudrockz

Hey thanks for the info above about the OFFICIAL Facebook page and the text alert signup. I've now liked the FB page and signed up for text alerts.

Minnesota standing by.

----------


## JK/SEA

> *County Commissioner Says Bundy Supporters “Better Have Funeral Plans”*
> 
> http://www.infowars.com/county-commi...funeral-plans/
> 
> Clark County Commissioner Tom Collins has caused outrage by remarking that Utahns planning to travel to Nevada to support Cliven Bundy in his standoff against the feds “better have funeral plans”.
> 
> The comments were revealed by Darin Bushman, a Piute County, Utah, commissioner after he spoke with Collins about Utah ranchers and his colleagues on the County Commission complaining about tactics used by Bureau of Land Management agents during their seizure of Bundy’s cattle in southern Nevada.
> “I was just told by commissioner Collins of Clark County NV that all of us folks from Utah are a bunch of “inbred bastards” and if we are coming to Clark County NV to support Cliven Bundy we all “better have funeral plans”. We should “turn our asses around on mind our own f-ing business”. Now there’s some classy leadership for you,” wrote Bushman on his official Facebook page.
> 
> More at link


Hey Tom, got anymore of that gas left from tossing on the fire? ......i may need to borrow some.

for my lawnmower of course.

----------


## kahless

> The story is making the rounds on FNC:


Some of it bad depending on when or what program. For example The Five was set against him saying he broke the law.  I watched a different Greta segment from the one posted where she kept defending herself saying he broke the law -- when confronted by some wacky Democrat candidate that kept saying FNC was riling people up.

----------


## Dr.3D

> Some of it bad depending on when or what program. For example The Five was set against him saying he broke the law.  I watched a different Greta segment from the one posted where she kept defending herself saying he broke the law -- when confronted by some wacky Democrat candidate that kept saying FNC was riling people up.


I saw that.  

Of course it's easy for the government to say he broke the law.   They keep changing the law all the time so they can do whatever they want.

----------


## chudrockz

https://www.facebook.com/bundyranch

Again, the *official* Facebook page for these good people. I just invited my entire friends list to "like" them and now my finger hurts. I'm guessing at least a few dozen of them will like them.

----------


## phill4paul

> *County Commissioner Says Bundy Supporters “Better Have Funeral Plans”*
> 
> http://www.infowars.com/county-commi...funeral-plans/
> 
> Clark County Commissioner Tom Collins has caused outrage by remarking that Utahns planning to travel to Nevada to support Cliven Bundy in his standoff against the feds “better have funeral plans”.
> 
> The comments were revealed by Darin Bushman, a Piute County, Utah, commissioner after he spoke with Collins about Utah ranchers and his colleagues on the County Commission complaining about tactics used by Bureau of Land Management agents during their seizure of Bundy’s cattle in southern Nevada.
> “I was just told by commissioner Collins of Clark County NV that all of us folks from Utah are a bunch of “inbred bastards” and if we are coming to Clark County NV to support Cliven Bundy we all “better have funeral plans”. We should “turn our asses around on mind our own f-ing business”. Now there’s some classy leadership for you,” wrote Bushman on his official Facebook page.
> 
> More at link


  Wow. I....ummm.....there are no words, really. Kinda tapped at the moment but Oathkeepers will be getting a donation by the end of next week.

----------


## ClydeCoulter

Lots of tweets mentioning that cell towers are being turned off in the area...

Other forms of communication needed:

----------


## JK/SEA

''It would not be at all surprising to see the President of the United States call up National Guard troops and more militarized law enforcement officials for fear of having this spiral out of control. A declaration of martial law to go along with already established First Amendment Areas is not out of the question.''

THIS.....is where i activate.

''sorry honey, i'll be back as soon as i can...''

----------


## AuH20

> ''It would not be at all surprising to see the President of the United States call up National Guard troops and more militarized law enforcement officials for fear of having this spiral out of control. A declaration of martial law to go along with already established First Amendment Areas is not out of the question.''
> 
> THIS.....is where i activate.
> 
> ''sorry honey, i'll be back as soon as i can...''


A good share of national guardsman would not report. With that said, even in a diminished capacity, they could still bring loads of pain to the area.

----------


## JK/SEA

> A good share of national guardsman would not report. With that said, even in a diminished capacity, they could still bring loads of pain to the area.



so be it...and let history be the judge.

----------


## Deborah K

I don't think the Feds want another Ruby Ridge, despite the asinine statements by the county commissioner.  The way the BLM backed down yesterday, I do believe they are weighing their options carefully.  Probably waiting to see how much media coverage and attendance there will be by supporters.  I hope others will work at bringing the various aspects of this situation to the attention of MSM programs that are already covering this, like Hannity, Kelly, and Greta.  Say what you will, they seem sympathetic and they have decent viewership.

----------


## Deborah K

> Sorry, I thought you meant who is listening / watching.  My bad...


NP, how's it going there? Do you have cell phone usage? Have you seen Stewart Rhodes et al? Or Mack? Or Santilli?

Edit: n/m.  Casey just pointed out what my dumbass didn't see.

----------


## jllundqu

Arizona is sending a delegation of state lawmakers to the Ranch to show support

----------


## Deborah K

> Arizona is sending a delegation of state lawmakers to the Ranch to show support


Got a link?  This is something I would tweet.

----------


## Deborah K

Why isn't this on the front page?

----------


## CaseyJones

> Why isn't this on the front page?


it was on the front page and so was the donation thread they have just been pushed down by other posts

----------


## jllundqu

> Got a link?  This is something I would tweet.


Ill post link in a sec





> The Arizona Legislature Stands With Bundy
> 
> In a case of “I would never have believed this in a million years”, the Arizona State Senate President Andy Biggs and the Arizona House of Representatives Speaker Dave Livingston are both in agreement that Arizona should be involved in supporting CSPOA and Oath Keepers in going to Bunkerville, Nevada. These two leaders of the Arizona Legislature have vowed to support the Cliven Bundy family. This stunning development cannot be overstated, and yet, there is more. Additionally, State Senators Al Melvin, Chester Crandall, and Kelly Ward along with State Representatives Brenda Barton, Bob Thorpe, Kelly Townsend and Warren Peterson are all planning to be at the Bundy ranch by Sunday morning. All of these local government officials are planning to attend the Press Conference Monday afternoon with the CSPOA and Oath Keepers along with the Bundy’s and other sheriffs and public officials from across the country.

----------


## Philhelm

> ''It would not be at all surprising to see the President of the United States call up National Guard troops and more militarized law enforcement officials for fear of having this spiral out of control. A declaration of martial law to go along with already established First Amendment Areas is not out of the question.''
> 
> THIS.....is where i activate.
> 
> ''sorry honey, i'll be back as soon as i can...''


Don't strike where the enemy is strong.

----------


## JK/SEA

> Don't strike where the enemy is strong.


if it comes down to a 62 year old man to save the republic....well....fodder i'm not......but.

----------


## Deborah K

> it was on the front page and so was the donation thread they have just been pushed down by other posts


Can the donation thread be added to the activist column of the front page so it doesn't get bumped off?

----------


## CaseyJones

> Can the donation thread be added to the activist column of the front page so it doesn't get bumped off?


done

----------


## Deborah K

> done


muchas!

----------


## ClydeCoulter

> Ill post link in a sec


Where's the link?

----------


## ClydeCoulter

> Don't strike where the enemy is strong.


Yeah, I would think that strikes elsewhere, if things got bad at the ranch, would be more beneficial, even though support at the ranch is important for a show of support.

----------


## Deborah K

They're killing cattle and letting baby cows starve.  This is so f'kd up!!  And we're relegated to 'free speech' zones, and some of the militia showing up are having their weapons confiscated, even though they're doing nothing illegal, as per the FB page.

----------


## ClydeCoulter

> They're killing cattle and letting baby cows starve.  This is so f'kd up!!  And we're relegated to 'free speech' zones, and some of the militia showing up are *having their weapons confiscated*, even though they're doing nothing illegal, as per the FB page.


What?  That's the first I'd heard about that.  Which FB page?

----------


## Deborah K

> What?  That's the first I'd heard about that.  Which FB page?


https://www.facebook.com/support.cliven.bundy

----------


## ClydeCoulter

> https://www.facebook.com/support.cliven.bundy


Thanks, I found it on my timeline from the Bundy Ranch page.




> Ryan Payne one of the Main Militia who has been here protecting Cliven has reported it was HIS brother in law who reported the confiscating of weapons. This has been confirmed by Militia. If this happens to anyone else please call us or put it on blast, if you can get pictures, please do! Thank you for your support everybody!

----------


## ClydeCoulter

Here's another, "Just doing my job" crap!




> From the Ranch: People are being pulled over near the protesting stand if they are showing any type of patriotism! 
> 
>  Two men were driving and were pulled over and when they were pulled over the officer confiscated LEGAL Weapons! Then sent them on their way. 
> 
>  The man stated: "I am on your side, but I am just doing my job"
> 
>  Keep on fighting. We need to do this together and we urge you to come out and support us! We need you, stop this tyranny
> 
> #RangeWar #BundyRanch #Tyranny #Gungrab

----------


## CaseyJones

> The man stated: "I am on your side, but I am just doing my job"


now say it in German

----------


## jllundqu

> Where's the link?


http://thecommonsenseshow.com/2014/0...-cliven-bundy/

----------


## Pericles

> Don't strike where the enemy is strong.


In such a scenario, one would not have far to travel in order to find an opportunity to strike a blow for liberty.

----------


## jllundqu

and another link:

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/ne...dispute-widens




> The Bureau of Land Management quietly dismantled its so-called “First Amendment areas” in northeastern Clark County on Thursday, as the fight over Cliven Bundy’s cattle widened into a national debate about states’ rights and federal land-use policy.
> 
> State lawmakers from Arizona to Washington are headed for Nevada to rally alongside the Bundy family and its supporters. Most of them are tea party Republicans or Libertarians associated with a patriot group known as the Oath Keepers.
> 
> Several of the elected officials said they were drawn into the issue by video footage of Wednesday’s clash between angry protesters and BLM rangers that shows Bundy’s sister being tackled to the ground and one of Bundy’s seven sons being shot with a stun gun.
> 
> “Watching that video last night created a visceral reaction in me,” said Arizona Rep. Kelly Townsend, a tea party Republican who is driving up from Phoenix to take part in a rally with lawmakers and Oath Keepers near the Bundy ranch Monday. “It sounds dramatic, but it reminded me of Tiananmen Square. I don’t recognize my country at this point.”

----------


## jllundqu

Proud to be an Arizonan.

----------


## puppetmaster

> Here's another, "Just doing my job" crap!


Covert weapon transport....and people think we will fight against weapon confiscation ...these people were there to resist and they caved.  Why bring it if you dont fight for your weapon.

----------


## puppetmaster

> Proud to be an Arizonan.


Where is McCain.....$#@!ing crazy old coward

----------


## Warrior_of_Freedom

> now say it in German


heil hitler

----------


## tod evans

> Where is McCain.....$#@!ing crazy old coward


Same place he was in Nam, on his knees in supplication to his masters....

I wouldn't piss on the ol' rat bastard if he were on fire....

----------


## jllundqu

McCain better keep his songbird ass out of this mess.  He is NOT welcome.  He'd side with Reid/BLM in a heartbeat.

----------


## Lucille

> Proud to be an Arizonan.


Too bad Arizonans voted no on Prop 120.  I'd say it's time to give it another go.

----------


## Deborah K

Live feed:  http://m.ustream.tv/channel/thepetesantillishow

Apparently Cliven is on Hannity radio show now.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Two men were driving and were pulled over and when they were pulled over the officer confiscated LEGAL Weapons! Then sent them on their way


Soooo...they are just ornate wall decorations then.

----------


## AuH20

> *Covert weapon transport.*...and people think we will fight against weapon confiscation ...these people were there to resist and they caved.  Why bring it if you dont fight for your weapon.


That's why you don't bring an SUV with connected & highly visible storage areas. If I had a F-150 with the locked side compartments in the bed, I'd be halfway there. Those are inconspicuous and secure. Don't have to worry about Johnny Law snooping around.

----------


## jllundqu

So much for "molon labe" and "from my cold dead hands"  lol

----------


## Pericles

> Soooo...they are just ornate wall decorations then.


Pretty much - why show up in order to surrender?

----------


## Pericles

> now say it in German


Ich bin auf Ihre Seite, aber Dienst ist Dienst.

----------


## Deborah K

> Pretty much - why show up in order to surrender?


We all have to decide what hill we want to die on.

----------


## devil21

> Pretty much - why show up in order to surrender?


Could just as easily be counterintel propaganda.  You know the feds are running their own propaganda on this already.

----------


## Pericles

> We all have to decide what hill we want to die on.


If you are going to "peaceably assemble" and stage a propaganda event (which is what people are being asked to do), don't bring the "battle rattle".

----------


## VegasPatriot

> I had a good signal yesterday.  A friend of mine is on his way there now... I asked him to call me once he is there to verify.  I will post something if I hear from him.


Talked to my friend about 30 minutes ago and he said he would be there in 20 minutes... now I can't reach him and he is not answering text messages.  Hmmm...

----------


## Deborah K

> If you are going to "peaceably assemble" and stage a propaganda event (which is what people are being asked to do), don't bring the "battle rattle".


Go ahead and judge from afar, if you must, Pericles.  But as for me, I'll reserve judgment until I know all the facts.  And I reiterate, we all have to decide for ourselves what hill we want to die on.  If I, and my husband, and other family members were pulled over by the Fedcoats with guns to our heads demanding our weapons, I'd probably give them what was on me, to live another day.  I wouldn't want to go out like that.  Just sayin.

----------


## ClydeCoulter

Watch this (as a refresher) from *25:00 to 27:00*

----------


## AuH20

> Pretty much - why show up in order to surrender?


I think people need to be broken from their former view of normal. Don't travel with your long guns visibly in the cab of the vehicle. Eliminate any entrance towards a probable cause search. We need to start getting inventive like the drug dealers are (storage near the undercarriage).

----------


## Lucille

Real Americans Are Ready To Snap
http://www.theburningplatform.com/20...ready-to-snap/




> I believe the same feeling hangs in the air of modern America for REAL Americans, and by real, I mean those who actually support and defend the constitutional values and principles that lay at the foundation of our society. We sense that something is coming; a great change, or an unstoppable reckoning.
> [...]
> While there is certainly much to despair in the state of our nation, I find the notion that Americans will do nothing in response misplaced and ignorant. From what I have observed, it is not a question of if citizens snap, but when.
> [...]
> This may seem like a minor event, a tiff over cattle grazing or possibly property rights, but there is much more going on here.
> 
> Tyranny leaves lasting scars, and each tyrannical act results in an accumulation of wounds on the public psyche that do not heal. In the end, a single event can become a trigger to unleash a torrent of rage pent up in a population for years or decades. The fight for Cliven Bundys farm has the potential to become such a trigger.
> [...]
> However, I believe that if this situation escalates into a Waco or Ruby Ridge brand of event, not only Liberty Movement residents of Nevada, but Liberty Movement champions across the nation will indeed finally throw down the gauntlet. What does that mean? It means they are going to start shooting. Opposing groups can debate whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, but the reality is that one way or another, it is going to happen.
> ...

----------


## limequat

They were probably CCW holders and have a duty to inform the ocifers as such at the stop.  That's what you get for having a CCW.

----------


## VegasPatriot

> Talked to my friend about 30 minutes ago and he said he would be there in 20 minutes... now I can't reach him and he is not answering text messages.  Hmmm...


Ok, just spoke with friend and cell service is fine at Bundy ranch.

----------


## CPUd

> Ok, just spoke with friend and cell service is fine at Bundy ranch.


Is that area normally sparsely populated?

It could be that there are not a lot of towers out there, and the influx of people is putting a heavy load on the towers they do have.

----------


## klamath

If you go there you_ better_ be ready to die on that hill. That is what the game is. It cannot be won with firepower at the bundy ranch. It will be won if the feds gun down a bunch of innocent unarmed protesters. The American will in mass turn against the feds. ANYTIME you pick up arms to fight there is a 90% chance YOU _WILL_ not survive to see the fruits of the war whatever that might be. 


> Go ahead and judge from afar, if you must, Pericles.  But as for me, I'll reserve judgment until I know all the facts.  And I reiterate, we all have to decide for ourselves what hill we want to die on.  If I, and my husband, and other family members were pulled over by the Fedcoats with guns to our heads demanding our weapons, I'd probably give them what was on me, to live another day.  I wouldn't want to go out like that.  Just sayin.

----------


## JK/SEA

''During an antiwar demonstration that spotlighted young Americans' disapproval of expanded participation in the Vietnam War, four students were killed and nine wounded in what became known as the Kent State Shootings, or the Kent State Massacre, on May 4, 1970.''

it seems it doesn't really matter.

on your knees, or on your feet...

----------


## VegasPatriot

> Is that area normally sparsely populated?


yes




> It could be that there are not a lot of towers out there, and the influx of people is putting a heavy load on the towers they do have.


good point

----------


## CaseyJones

Cliven Bundy supporters bring cattle roundup protest to Las Vegas police headquarters

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/la...e-headquarters




> Approximately 40 protesters gathered outside Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department headquarters on Friday asking for Sheriff Doug Gillespie to intervene and “protect the people” involved in the Cliven Bundy cattle dispute.
> 
> The gathering organized by tea party supporters called for Gillespie to “do his job” and protect the Bundy family from the federal government.
> 
> “Sheriff Gillespie is the top elected law enforcement officer in Clark County and he has abdicated his role as sheriff leaving the people of Clark County void of protection from abuse by the federal government,” said Connie Foust, president of the Virgin Valley Tea Party in Mesquite and co-organizer of the protest.
> 
> Organizers also called for peaceful civil disobedience, and for supporters from Nevada and outside the state to leave their weapons at home, and not to wear camouflage.
> 
> Supporters of Bundy are upset at the tactics used by agents of the Bureau of Land Management during the round up of the family’s cattle, including the arrest of one of Bundy’s sons, Dave Bundy, on Sunday by federal agents for “refusing to disperse” and resisting address.
> ...

----------


## evandeck

"Police brutality is ok if it's done to right-wingers and other statist talking points"- ThinkProgress http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...y-court-order/

----------


## DP714

*****I JUST HAD AN IDEA******

Can someone who is in contact with folks on the ground pitch to them the idea of bringing a bunch of mirrors to the sites of protest? 

The idea is to let the enforcers see how their tyranny really looks from the receiving end. I saw this tactic used by the European protestors (I think in Ukraine), and I think it would be effective here as well...and if nothing else...the extra heat reflected onto them, in that desert sun, would annoy the sh*t out of the enforcers. It's worth a try.

----------


## Carson

Fark headline;
*
The Bureau of Land Management brought snipers to the Bundy Ranch to protect the desert tortoise. And by desert tortoise, I mean they want his land for a $5B Chinese solar farm deal* 

Story linked;

http://www.infowars.com/breaking-sen...f-bundy-ranch/


Fark comments;

http://www.fark.com/comments/8217838...olar-farm-deal


Oops! This is a Total Fark Link right now. It's free today and you may have to log in to see the link above. If it gets approved everyone will be able to see it even when the free Total Fark is over tomorrow.

----------


## unknown

Has Ron Paul spoken out on this yet?

In trying to imagine what Ron Paul would say about this, the first thing I' m curious about is why the government has so much land to begin with?

----------


## Carson

> *****I JUST HAD AN IDEA******
> 
> Can someone who is in contact with folks on the ground pitch to them the idea of bringing a bunch of mirrors to the sites of protest? 
> 
> The idea is to let the enforcers see how their tyranny really looks from the receiving end. I saw this tactic used by the European protestors (I think in Ukraine), and I think it would be effective here as well...and if nothing else...the extra heat reflected onto them, in that desert sun, would annoy the sh*t out of the enforcers. It's worth a try.



I'm getting bad vibes off this idea. The desert can be bright and the reflections could hurt and upset people. Also some of the dogs may freak out seeing themselves.

----------


## Deborah K

> If you go there you_ better_ be ready to die on that hill. That is what the game is. It cannot be won with firepower at the bundy ranch. It will be won if the feds gun down a bunch of innocent unarmed protesters. The American will in mass turn against the feds. ANYTIME you pick up arms to fight there is a 90% chance YOU _WILL_ not survive to see the fruits of the war whatever that might be.


Please.  Not all people going to this protest are going armed and with the intent to lay down their lives.  Give me a break.

----------


## Deborah K

> I'm getting bad vibes off this idea. The desert can be bright and the reflections could hurt and upset people. Also some of the dogs may freak out seeing themselves.


Hand-held mirrors could still relay the message and not cause massive glare.

----------


## tod evans

Parabolic mirrors are a peaceful means to disable snipers...

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Parabolic mirrors are a peaceful means to disable snipers...


"" it was very bright.  I felt like I was in danger, so I opened fire.  We killed like 20 of them, but now Ramirez needs a band-aid for his chin.  I think my brass caught him after I took out the fourth protester armed with those damn death mirrors... Officer safety, procedure was followed, safety was ensured.

----------


## CaseyJones

Archimedes would approve

----------


## devil21

> "Police brutality is ok if it's done to right-wingers and other statist talking points"- ThinkProgress http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...y-court-order/


That's painful to read and the comments are even worse.  I try to remember that most 'commenters' with the over-the-top rhetoric are paid DNC shills, trying to stir up hate and deflect from the fact that Democrats only protest gov't heavy-handedness when it's a Republican in the WH.

----------


## Deborah K

Greta, Megyn, and Sean have all covered it again today.  Hannity has them on right now, and stated there are over 200 agents surrounding his property now.

----------


## Deborah K

Hannity:  "They [the Feds] need to pull back!"

----------


## tod evans

Thanks for watching and interpreting Deb!

I won't watch any MSM media so unless it's been tubed I've gotta rely on the folks here...

----------


## cajuncocoa

> "Police brutality is ok if it's done to right-wingers and other statist talking points"- ThinkProgress http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...y-court-order/


TPTB do a very good job of keeping the Left/Right paradigm going.  They need us at each others' throats so we're distracted from the real threat:  THEM.

----------


## Deborah K

> Thanks for watching and interpreting Deb!
> 
> I won't watch any MSM media so unless it's been tubed I've gotta rely on the folks here...


Tod, I hold my nose, but they are what the sheeple look to for info, so when they are covering something that is beneficial to our cause, I try to disseminate it.

Update!!  Just announced on Hannity that snipers are spotted all over in the hills.

Tread carefully, Patriots.

----------


## klamath

> Please.  Not all people going to this protest are going armed and with the intent to lay down their lives.  Give me a break.


They better be ready to. If you DO NOT want the possibility to be killed then don't think about going. Whether you are armed or NOT you are risking your life going there. Do you think the firepower the feds are carrying is for snakes or turtles? That is the point I believe Pericles and I are making. It isn't a game.

----------


## tod evans

> TPTB do a very good job of keeping the Left/Right paradigm going.  They need us at each others' throats so we're distracted from the real threat:  THEM.


Here in the sticks there's Democrats and Republicans that all share disdain for the feds...

It's one of the few issues everybody agrees on...

----------


## Deborah K

> They better be ready to. If you DO NOT want the possibility to be killed then don't think about going. Whether you are armed or NOT you are risking your life going there. Do you think the firepower the feds are carrying is for snakes or turtles? That is the point I believe Pericles and I are making. It isn't a game.


Never made the claim this was a game, Klamath.  And I doubt the men who had their weapons confiscated believed it was a game either.  They just chose not to open fire.  I don't think that necessarily makes them cowards.  That is MY point.

----------


## Natural Citizen

> Tod, I hold my nose, but they are what the sheeple look to for info, so when they are covering something that is beneficial to our cause, I try to disseminate it.
> 
> Update!!  Just announced on Hannity that snipers are spotted all over in the hills.
> 
> Tread carefully, Patriots.


When asked what specifically is it about this land that the feds are interested in, I was pleased to hear an honest answer from Cliven Bundy. Bundy was clear in referencing the food industry, the mining industry, coal industry, oil industry to name a few. Hannity seemed to want to encourage Cliven to sit down and "have a talk" about it with the feds. Which I thought was peculiar. Recall that often the federal government is operating in the interests of private parties. Much like what we see with Koch Industries teaming up with Monsanto and Rep. Mike Pompeo to suppress states rights to label via industry written legislation. 

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5480104

----------


## klamath

> Never made the claim this was a game, Klamath.  And I doubt the men who had their weapons confiscated believed it was a game either.  They just chose not to open fire.  I don't think that necessarily makes them cowards.  That is MY point.


Why did they bring weapons then? As far as I have seen bundy is saying not to bring weapons?

----------


## tod evans

> Why did they bring weapons then? As far as I have seen bundy is saying not to bring weapons?


The feds have declared the area a war zone.

Why would a sane citizen set foot in a federal war zone unarmed unless he had every intention of becoming a martyr?

----------


## osan

> 


The most horrifying thing about this image, secondary to the fact that that was a real man sitting at the edge of his life, is the fact that this is precisely what America feels like today, only with a very slightly different gloss on the play.  Today it is better hidden due to the differences in sensibilities and the fact that the target audiences are also different.

I do not intend to sound like some whiny drama-queen, but this image really does disturb me terribly.  I am now wondering who that man was - what was his name.  There is something in me that wants to know so that he may be remembered.  And ever so oddly, I don't give the lease damn about who the man with the gun was.  I have no desire but to forget he ever existed, save to remember what he did.

----------


## Thor

> The feds have declared the area a war zone.


Officially?  Link?

Or just speculatively/figuratively based upon snipers and firepower, etc...  ?

----------


## limequat

Yah, I think the idea is that if enough non-violent people show up, the BLM will back down.

----------


## AuH20

The feds can't back down. It's costing too much per day. They have summoned too many employees from surrounding states. This will go down since they need to keep the illusion that they are the top dog. If they are driven out, it will create problems on multiple fronts.

----------


## Thor

Just got this from one of the Bundy FB pages (https://www.facebook.com/ClivenBundy...72928176088066):




> Just received this!
> 
> " * * * EMERGENCY ALERT * * * ~ The Feds are sending over 100 DHS personnel MRAP vehicles (2 HumVee's and the rest have mounted machines guns and armour plating). Cliven may not know this. These messages were hi-jacked from Federal Communications by the other Federal workers. This was not a public announcement. If you know how to contact Cliven or the militias headed to Nevada please call them immediately. The Feds are saying that 30,000 private militia are headed that way to oppose the Feds. I do not fully trust the sources but this info about Cliven seemed to be on the level. This situation has much negative potential. If you have been able and have done this please phone me (336) 420-5355 or use FB to MESSAGE me."

----------


## tod evans

> Officially?  Link?
> 
> Or just speculatively/*figuratively based upon snipers and firepower,* etc...  ?


It would be counterproductive for government to actually declare the area a war zone now wouldn't it?

----------


## limequat

> Just got this from one of the Bundy FB pages (https://www.facebook.com/ClivenBundy...72928176088066):


^^

Sounds bogus to me.

----------


## AuH20

The feds have never faced legitimate resistance. They could get ravaged if enough militia show up. With that said, I would not be surprised if they are being assisted by other federal agencies or even the military.

----------


## limequat

> It would be counterproductive for government to actually declare the area a war zone now wouldn't it?


I believe it was Cliven that declared war.

----------


## limequat

If things go sideways, it would be the FBI's jurisdiction.  Just like in Waco.

----------


## RPtotheWH

Their numbers appear to be growing 

Also more talk from a closed group on facebook, hopefully it happens:




> We'll be at the Bundy ranch early Saturday morning. They are bringing in more rangers. I was told 450 militia members from S. Carolina are in route. There are 3 of us in my truck in Nebraska now. More behind us a ways. Where are all the big names that speak at events about liberty? At home writing more speeches. Put down your pen pick up your gear and start driving west.

----------


## AuH20

You can bet your bottom dollar that there will be UAVs flying in that valley on the weekend.

----------


## limequat

> Their numbers appear to be growing 
> 
> Also more talk from a closed group on facebook, hopefully it happens:


God, I hope that's true and not more bluster.

----------


## limequat

> You can bet your bottom dollar that there will be UAVs flying in that valley on the weekend.


That's what the mirrors are for!

----------


## fr33

> Why did they bring weapons then? As far as I have seen bundy is saying not to bring weapons?


If more of the activists heading that way were closer when it happened maybe it wouldn't have ended that way. Maybe it's not as organized as you'd like it to be but I bet you're sitting on your butt while critiquing them so stfu.

----------


## AuH20

Mass weapon confiscation reports debunked by Sandman:




> I have assets on the ground, the State Police are watching the I15, but not acting over-zealous. There are NO roadblocks or Checkpoints set up currently. About 1000 pro-liberty folks onsite. Including Militia, IIIpers, Oathkeepers and locals.
> 
> And for those traveling, NV STATE Law prohibits long guns with one in the chamber. Just secure your arms and dont be an idiot.
> 
> *That story comes out of a Group called Operation Mutual Aid (OMA) The call themselves a Militia and are good at getting on TV but they are not part of OUR network. The story was a Militiamans (Ryan Payne) brother and his wife and kids got pulled. He apparently had loaded weapons and supposedly the State Troopers took them. I have never had good relations with OMA. They stir $#@! up and put out a lot of sensationalist crap. I call BS on anything originating from them.*

----------


## AuH20

> Got this today. *FWIW, four dudes i know have suited up and left. they are not your usual basement dwellers. each can hit a gnat on a fly's ass from 1500 meters. they have their kits and are rolling. two of them have barretts but i hope they left them at home.*


God bless Ronnie Barrett! .50 cal can tear a man in half at the right angle.

----------


## klamath

> The feds have declared the area a war zone.
> 
> Why would a sane citizen set foot in a federal war zone unarmed unless he had every intention of becoming a martyr?


Because every person there WILL be a Martyr armed or not. Having guns won't stop that. The amount of firepower the feds can bring down on those people will ensure that. 
just read an article from a los Vegas newspaper. the majority of the comments were against Bundy even in Vegas.

----------


## klamath

> If more of the activists heading that way were closer when it happened maybe it wouldn't have ended that way. Maybe it's not as organized as you'd like it to be but I bet you're sitting on your butt while critiquing them so stfu.


Are you there? are you there posting from the Bundy ranch? If not STFU.

----------


## AuH20

The Department of Serial Liars Neither Confirms Nor Denies that they have Euthanized Mr. Bundy's property:

http://freebeacon.com/issues/blm-won...anch-standoff/




> Amy Lueders, the Nevada state director for the BLM, said in a conference call Thursday evening that the agency does have a “protocol,” but would not release any numbers for animals they have found dead or that they have euthanized.
> 
> A reporter asked about heavy construction equipment that was seen coming in and out of the blockade, and whether cattle have been found dead, injured, or euthanized during the operation.
> 
> “In terms of the number that we’ve found, animals who are, I think, deceased on the range, or if we’ve had to euthanize an animal, we don’t have an answer to that question at this time,” Lueders said. “We will euthanize an animal during the impoundment if they exhibit dangerous characteristics, threaten the health and safety of the employees, display a hopeless prognosis for life.”
> 
> “So, we do have a protocol in terms of when we would euthanize animals,” she said. “But we don’t have any answers at this time in terms of the numbers.”
> 
> Lueders said she understood that the heavy equipment was being used to “restore land that has been affected by the trespass cattle.”

----------


## fr33

> Are you there? are you there posting from the Bundy ranch? If not STFU.


The obvious difference is that I'm not ordering them around and acting all high and mighty.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> Never made the claim this was a game, Klamath.  And I doubt the men who had their weapons confiscated believed it was a game either.  They just chose not to open fire.  I don't think that necessarily makes them cowards.  That is MY point.


Not cowards but I see that as mostly useless.  I really just don't see the point of just sitting there and letting them kill you.  The only thing these aggressors understand is violence, and if one is not willing to show them that there is a risk of being killed when you invade someone's property in this way, I don't really see the point of trying at all.

----------


## osan

> Yah, I think the idea is that if enough non-violent people show up, the BLM will back down.


Which all rational and minimally clued-in adults know is just this side of "never happen".  Backing down is something the fedgov no longer does, and if you think about it, never really has.

It seems that this is going to end in only one of two ways: WE back down as per the usual, of people start going home in body bags on both sides.

If we back down, BLM does its do and then goes away.  Perhaps Bundy is left alive - perhaps not.  Nothing new there, most likely.

If we do not back down, BLM will escalate and perhaps call in the backup from ATF, FBI, and so forth.  If we refuse to stand down, they will escalate further and this will go on until we quit or the escalation passes the threshold of containment at which point someone is going to start something that will get out of hand rapidly.  Once the shooting starts, loss of the least vestige of linearity ensues and behold, a free-for-all.  At that point people start dying and getting maimed, etc. and heaven knoly knows where that leads, though possibly nowhere good depending on how things play out.

If "we" win, the feds will be in a fury to pass new legislation and adopt new policies directed toward the goal of disarming us in every sense of the word.  The gloves may then be said to have come off, unless these apparently impatient bastards actually are not.  But I think Theye will be wildly attempting to get our weapons after such a tête-à-tête and I would anticipate a vigorous, if piecemeal program of door to door confiscation, replete with whatever violence Theye will deem necessary to get the job done including uncharacteristic non-equivocation regarding what awaits those who refuse to cooperate.  In the wake of such a fight I see Themme as holding the most brazen pretext for "no mercy" and we will be truly at the nexus and it will be do or capitulate in toto because these bastards will treat us as were the Japanese treated at the end of the Pacific war: unconditional surrender or we will annihilate your species from the planet.

I think "we" will back down.  I hope we don't.  I don't think Theye will back down.  I hope they do.  But if it comes to violence, I hope we send them ALL home in ziplock bags because enough is enough already.

----------


## AuH20

> Not cowards but I see that as mostly useless.  I really just don't see the point of just sitting there and letting them kill you.  The only thing these aggressors understand is violence, and if one is not willing to show them that there is a risk of being killed when you invade someone's property in this way, I don't really see the point of trying at all.


I think this is largely about unmasking the tyrant to the public. Force them to escalate and use air power. I hate to say it, but there is a part of me that wants to see hellfire missiles rain down on that ranch. It will be the gift of all gifts. I hope everyone who's going there is aware of the game that is afoot.

----------


## pcosmar

> But if it comes to violence, I hope we send them ALL home in ziplock bags because enough is enough already.

----------


## klamath

> The obvious difference is that I'm not ordering them around and acting all high and mighty.


 You obviously have no clue what ordering is. Do I have the power the initiate UCMJ action against those people for not obeying me? NO. So STFU.

----------


## Deborah K

> Not cowards but I see that as mostly useless.  I really just don't see the point of just sitting there and letting them kill you.  The only thing these aggressors understand is violence, and if one is not willing to show them that there is a risk of being killed when you invade someone's property in this way, I don't really see the point of trying at all.


Do you even know what Klamath, Pericles and I are debating about?

----------


## Deborah K

> Which all rational and minimally clued-in adults know is just this side of "never happen".  Backing down is something the fedgov no longer does, and if you think about it, never really has.
> 
> It seems that this is going to end in only one of two ways: WE back down as per the usual, of people start going home in body bags on both sides.
> 
> If we back down, BLM does its do and then goes away.  Perhaps Bundy is left alive - perhaps not.  Nothing new there, most likely.
> 
> If we do not back down, BLM will escalate and perhaps call in the backup from ATF, FBI, and so forth.  If we refuse to stand down, they will escalate further and this will go on until we quit or the escalation passes the threshold of containment at which point someone is going to start something that will get out of hand rapidly.  Once the shooting starts, loss of the least vestige of linearity ensues and behold, a free-for-all.  At that point people start dying and getting maimed, etc. and heaven knoly knows where that leads, though possibly nowhere good depending on how things play out.
> 
> If "we" win, the feds will be in a fury to pass new legislation and adopt new policies directed toward the goal of disarming us in every sense of the word.  The gloves may then be said to have come off, unless these apparently impatient bastards actually are not.  But I think Theye will be wildly attempting to get our weapons after such a tête-à-tête and I would anticipate a vigorous, if piecemeal program of door to door confiscation, replete with whatever violence Theye will deem necessary to get the job done including uncharacteristic non-equivocation regarding what awaits those who refuse to cooperate.  In the wake of such a fight I see Themme as holding the most brazen pretext for "no mercy" and we will be truly at the nexus and it will be do or capitulate in toto because these bastards will treat us as were the Japanese treated at the end of the Pacific war: unconditional surrender or we will annihilate your species from the planet.
> ...

----------


## osan

> If you go there you_ better_ be ready to die on that hill.


You have a gift for the obvious.




> It cannot be won with firepower at the bundy ranch.


Opinion courtesy of your crystal ball?




> It will be won if the feds gun down a bunch of innocent unarmed protesters. *The American will in mass turn against the feds*.


You think?  I will tell you what I think: you're smoking things you ought leave alone.  A majority of Americans put a lunatic in the Oval Office not once, but twice.  A vast plurality wants to have his babies and defend his "record" no matter how dismal a failure it is.  They are hopelessly bereft of intellect, integrity, honesty, or any other virtue you may care to name.  They are cowards of the lowest order, by and large, and will do NOTHING no matter the trespass.




> ANYTIME you pick up arms to fight there is a 90% chance YOU _WILL_ not survive to see the fruits of the war whatever that might be.


Which is, of course, nonsense... unless you can provide factual figures proving that 90% of all armies that have engaged in battle have been killed, in which case I will have to concede the point, but not until then.

----------


## AuH20

No Fly Zone has been erected. What did I tell you? They need a realtime battlefield picture:

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/notam_actual_4_1687.html




> FDC 4/1687 ZLA NV..AIRSPACE MESQUITE, NV..TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS WITHIN AREA DEFINED AS 3NM RADIUS OF 364624N/1141113W (MMM71 RADIAL AT 4.3NM) SFC-3000FT AGL LAW ENFORCEMENT INVESTIGATION. PURSUANT TO 14 CFR SECTION 91.137(A)(1) TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS ARE IN EFFECT. ONLY RELIEF AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS UNDER DIRECTION OF BLM ARE AUTHORIZED IN THE AIRSPACE. BLM TELEPHONE 702-335-3191 IS IN CHARGE OF ON SCENE EMERGENCY RESPONSE ACTIVITY. LOS ANGELES /ZLA/ ARTCC TELEPHONE 661-265-8205 IS THE FAA COORDINATION FACILITY. 1404112140-1405111434

----------


## AuH20

FBI is on the scene in some capacity. More info as I get it..

----------


## CaseyJones

Auction houses in Nevada and now Utah are refusing to accept Bundy cattle delivered by BLM

http://beforeitsnews.com/tea-party/2...s-2524772.html

http://www.thespectrum.com/article/2...nclick_check=1

----------


## 2young2vote

> I think this is largely about unmasking the tyrant to the public. Force them to escalate and use air power. I hate to say it, but there is a part of me that *wants to see hellfire missiles rain down on that ranch*. It will be the gift of all gifts. I hope everyone who's going there is aware of the game that is afoot.


After the MSM and various government officials call them terrorists, thieves, and racists, over and over and over again, the average American will view a bombing of the ranch as nothing more than our precious government protecting us from the crazies.  It will mean nothing if we don't spread the truth of the matter.  I've been talking with my family about the situation.  Tomorrow I will tell my co-workers about it, and tomorrow night I will make sure my friends know about it.  Hopefully I can get a leg-up on the government lovers who will no doubt be spreading their beliefs throughout the MSM if anything big happens.

----------


## AuH20

> After the MSM and various government officials call them terrorists, thieves, and racists, over and over and over again, the average American will view a bombing of the ranch as nothing more than our precious government protecting us from the crazies.  It will mean nothing if we don't spread the truth of the matter.  I've been talking with my family about the situation.  Tomorrow I will tell my co-workers about it, and tomorrow night I will make sure my friends know about it.  Hopefully I can get a leg-up on the government lovers who will no doubt be spreading their beliefs throughout the MSM if anything big happens.


But any such escalation still won't align with the false meme of accrued back taxes. Only the most diehard progs are calling for the death of Bundy and his supporters. Even those who disagree with Cliven Bundy don't want to see him blown to bits.

----------


## AuH20



----------


## Constitutional Paulicy

> I absolutely cannot believe we stood for this horse$#@!!!  The First Amendment area is on all public land.  How dare they mark off some little area and tell me that is the only place I can say what I damn want to!!!!!!!!!!!

----------


## AuH20

BTW My employer was just bought out by these jokers. And suddenly we're awash with public infrastructure projects. I  want to know HOW they procured these projects. It stinks to high heaven. The entire country is being sold to these Mandarin SOBs.

http://www.chinaconstruction.us/

----------


## Constitutional Paulicy

> Clashes erupted soon after the armed agents began trying to impose their will on the protesters.
> 
> Video emerged Wednesday of Ammon Bundy, the rancher's son, being tased multiple times by authorities to the point his shirt was soaked in blood.
> 
> Houston claimed during that town hall meeting that an agent threw her to the ground.
> 
> 'All of a sudden I get hit from the back, it was like a football tackle,' she said. 'They took me and just threw me down to the ground.'
> 
> She was not hurt in the incident, but said she was 'shocked that somebody would actually do this.'
> ...

----------


## newbitech

SO basically the United States Government is leading an invasion against the United States?

----------


## RJB

I read awhile back (I forgot where) that when we went off the Gold standard, the united states itself basically became the collateral for the debt.  Soon after the EPA etc. came about, and that was to make sure the collateral was persevered for the "investors."  I'll have to find where I read that.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Because every person there WILL be a Martyr armed or not. Having guns won't stop that. The amount of firepower the feds can bring down on those people will ensure that. 
> just read an article from a los Vegas newspaper. *the majority of the comments were against Bundy even in Vegas*.


Of course they are...I have no illusions about that..._Boobus_ hates us, and when the $#@! finally does hit the fan, he will be happy to see us exterminated.

Idiot AmeriKa doesn't want freedom, they don't want what we're selling.

----------


## Constitutional Paulicy

> The Bureau of Land Management, whose director was Sen. Harry Reids (D-Nev.) former senior adviser, has purged documents from its web site stating that the agency wants Nevada rancher Cliven Bundys cattle off of the land his family has worked for over 140 years in order to make way for solar panel power stations.
> 
> The first segment of the document pulled by the feds from BLM.gov. Deleted from BLM.gov but reposted for posterity by the Free Republic, the BLM document entitled Cattle Trespass Impacts directly states that Bundys cattle impacts solar development, more specifically the construction of utility-scale solar power generation facilities on public lands.
> 
> Non-Governmental Organizations have expressed concern that the regional mitigation strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone utilizes Gold Butte as the location for offsite mitigation for impacts from solar development, and that those restoration activities are not durable with the presence of trespass cattle, the document states.
> 
> The second segment of the document pulled by the feds from BLM.gov. Another BLM report entitled Regional Mitigation Strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone (BLM Technical Note 444) reveals that Bundys land in question is within the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone and surrounding area which is part of a broad U.S. Department of Energy program for Solar Energy Development in Six Southwestern States on land managed by BLM.
> 
> In 2012, the BLM and the U.S. Department of Energy published the Final Programmatic Environmental Impact Statement (PEIS) for Solar Energy Development in Six Southwestern States, the report reads.


documents and maps here.... http://toprightnews.com/?p=2422

*This part of the article is so revealing....*




> Back in 2012, the New American reported that Harry Reids son, Rory Reid, was the chief representative for a Chinese energy firm planning to build a $5-billion solar plant on public land in Laughlin, Nevada.
> 
> And journalist Marcus Stern with Reuters also reported that Sen. Reid was heavily involved in the deal as well.
> 
> [Reid] and his oldest son, Rory, are both involved in an effort by a Chinese energy giant, ENN Energy Group, to build a $5 billion solar farm and panel manufacturing plant in the southern Nevada desert, he wrote. Reid has been one of the projects most prominent advocates, helping recruit the company during a 2011 trip to China and applying his political muscle on behalf of the project in Nevada.
> 
> His son, a lawyer with a prominent Las Vegas firm that is representing ENN, helped it locate a 9,000-acre (3,600-hectare) desert site that it is buying well below appraised value from Clark County, where Rory Reid formerly chaired the county commission.
> 
> Although these reports are in plain view, the mainstream media has so far ignored this link.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I think "we" will back down.  I hope we don't.  I don't think Theye will back down.  I hope they do.  But if it comes to violence, I hope we send them ALL home in ziplock bags because enough is enough already.


Honestly.

Enough talk already...this has been talked to death.

One side is scared and the other is glad for it.

Anybody outside the circle of _Boobus_ knows damn well where it's all heading.

----------


## ClydeCoulter

Thomas Massie brought up something on his FB page...OP has a photo of the US and Federal Land demarked in red...and the #BundyRanch hashtag...Then he responds to someone with:




> The federal gov makes cash payments to states to make up for their lost property taxes on land the states and people aren't allowed to own. Did you realize that your tax dollars are being used this way? Google PILT. Payment In Lieu of Taxes.

----------


## kcchiefs6465

> 


The first five minutes were ridiculous.

First, what the $#@! is Alex Jones' problem with regards to letting _his_ correspondent speak?

Second, what the $#@! is Alex Jones' problem with regards to acting like a lunatic?

Man. He breaks a story to $#@! all over it.

----------


## devil21

Seems like Alex Jones is usually catching up to the story now instead of leading it.

----------


## oyarde

> Officially?  Link?
> 
> Or just speculatively/figuratively based upon snipers and firepower, etc...  ?


 Yeah , well , if fbi  snipers are pointing weapons  at my children , that would be enough for me to collect all scalps as soon as they rest . They would rest sometime , I would not .

----------


## tod evans

> Because every person there WILL be a Martyr armed or not. Having guns won't stop that. .


I hope you're wrong...

But the feds have priors...

----------


## unknown

> Why did they bring weapons then? As far as I have seen bundy is saying not to bring weapons?


In that part of the nation, I would imagine that a lot of people carry on a daily basis?

----------


## Occam's Banana

> Will Grigg, finally.  (I can't believe LRC has had so little on this.)
> 
> http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com...nded-knee.html


Does Will Grigg ever NOT kick ass?
Everyone should read that Will Grigg piece.

----------


## unknown

> The first five minutes were ridiculous.
> 
> First, what the $#@! is Alex Jones' problem with regards to letting _his_ correspondent speak?
> 
> Second, what the $#@! is Alex Jones' problem with regards to acting like a lunatic?
> 
> Man. He breaks a story to $#@! all over it.


Haha, I take it that youre not a regular listener.

----------


## asurfaholic

> Because every person there WILL be a Martyr armed or not. Having guns won't stop that. The amount of firepower the feds can bring down on those people will ensure that. 
> just read an article from a los Vegas newspaper. the majority of the comments were against Bundy even in Vegas.


Respectfully, I think you are going overboard. You act like everyone there is going to die.

----------


## WM_in_MO

> Respectfully, I think you are going overboard. You act like everyone there is going to die.


It's a very real possibility.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Does Will Grigg ever NOT kick ass?
> Everyone should read that Will Grigg piece.


Never not...

I agree, go read that...best summation of these events I've found yet.

----------


## Occam's Banana

> Never not...
> 
> I agree, go read that...best summation of these events I've found yet.


Not to mention the deep context Grigg provides - with respect to both "recent" history (the Dept. of Interior policies of Babbitt's secretaryship, for example) and "older" history (Sherman/Sheridan, "manifest destiny" & Indian policy, etc.).

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Not to mention the deep context Grigg provides - with respect to both "recent" history (the Dept. of Interior policies of Babbitt's secretaryship, for example) and "older" history (Sherman/Sheridan, "manifest destiny" & Indian policy, etc.).


The best political weapon is the weapon of terror. Cruelty commands respect. Men may hate us. But, we don't ask for their love; only for their fear. - Heinrich Himmler

----------


## pcosmar

> Originally Posted by* klamath*
> 
> *the majority of the comments were against Bundy even in Vegas*


How many of those commenters are on the Government payroll?

Like the Cops or Copsuckers that comment on Police abuse articles?

----------


## erowe1

Forget violent methods. They're doomed to fail. They'll get people killed. And they'll only turn the public against the cause.

The kind of courage we really need people to have here is the courage of nonviolent resistance. All these people who want to go help should go unarmed, line themselves up around this man's family and cattle, kneel down, show their hands, hold out flowers and other signs of peace to the police, have a prayer vigil, make the government agents arrest them by the hundreds, and get this all on video.

----------


## JK/SEA

> Forget violent methods. They're doomed to fail. They'll get people killed. And they'll only turn the public against the cause.
> 
> The kind of courage we really need people to have here is the courage of nonviolent resistance. All these people who want to go help should go unarmed, line themselves up around this man's family and cattle, kneel down, show their hands, hold out flowers and other signs of peace to the police, have a prayer vigil, make the government agents arrest them by the hundreds, and get this all on video.


LOL

----------


## tod evans

> Forget violent methods. They're doomed to fail. They'll get people killed. And they'll only turn the public against the cause.
> 
> The kind of courage we really need people to have here is the courage of nonviolent resistance. All these people who want to go help should go unarmed, line themselves up around this man's family and cattle, kneel down, show their hands, hold out flowers and other signs of peace to the police, have a prayer vigil, make the government agents arrest them by the hundreds, and get this all on video.


Don't know many country folk do you?

----------


## erowe1

> Don't know many country folk do you?


Not sure. Why?

----------


## JK/SEA

Those who forget history, are doomed to repeat it...

look up KENT STATE MASSACRE.

hippies with flowers protesting the Vietnam War...murdered by NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS....wake the $#@! up...

----------


## Origanalist

> Not sure. Why?


If you're not sure, then you probably don't. And they aren't exactly the flower power type.

----------


## erowe1

> Those who forget history, are doomed to repeat it...
> 
> look up KENT STATE MASSACRE.
> 
> hippies with flowers protesting the Vietnam War...murdered by NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS....wake the $#@! up...


Is the thinking here that people who go there with guns and shoot back at the cops are less likely to get killed?

Those hippies at Kent State accomplished a lot more by dying than they would have by killing.

----------


## erowe1

> If you're not sure, then you probably don't. And they aren't exactly the flower power type.


They can change. I'm not a big fan of the victim line, "I can't make the choice to do the right thing because that's just not who I am."

Plus, what's being "country folk" have to do with it? People are traveling in from far away. There's not a rule on who can come from where.

I'm just giving the prescription for what needs to happen if anybody actually wants to do any good.

Also, does Clarence Jordan count as "country folk"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Jordan

----------


## tod evans

> Not sure. Why?


I know lots, most are slow to anger and decisive once they do.

Flowers and  Kumbuya don't really hold any significance...

----------


## erowe1

I get that I look stupid to all the internet tough guys.

What we really need is a leader of Ron Paul's stature to get involved and rally people to do something like what I said.

Does anybody have any doubt which approach he would endorse?

----------


## RJB

> Watch this (as a refresher) from *25:00 to 27:00*


Very big bump.  

Clyde this deserves it's own thread.  Most of us were attracted to Ron Paul because we are libertarians.  In 2007, I didn't understand RP's obssession with the Federal Reserve.  I found out with in a year.  But regular reminders are needed especially as new people join the forum.

+REP

----------


## erowe1

> Flowers and  Kumbuya don't really hold any significance...


It's not the flowers and kumbaya. It's the peaceful resistance, the willing submission to evil, the unmistakable clarity of showing that you are on the side of good and they are not, the frustrating of their agenda by proving that even when they use their most powerful weapons against you to force you to buckle to their wishes or take on their methods you will instead look back at them and say, "Is that all you got?"

----------


## Origanalist

> They can change.
> 
> Plus, what's being "country folk" have to do with it? People are traveling in from far away. There's not a rule on who can come from where.
> 
> I'm just giving the prescription for what needs to happen if anybody actually wants to do any good.
> 
> Also, does Clarence Jordan count as "country folk"?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Jordan


I get what you're saying, and of course there are non-violent types in the country. However, I do not think that is who is going to be drawn to this ranchers aid.

----------


## tod evans

> It's not the flowers and kumbaya. It's the peaceful resistance, the willing submission to evil, the unmistakable clarity of showing that you are on the side of good and they are not, the frustrating of their agenda by proving that even when they use their most powerful weapons against you to force you to buckle to their wishes or take on their methods you will instead look back at them and say, "Is that all you got?"


Sorry dude I'm not built like that...

----------


## Origanalist

> I get that I look stupid to all the internet tough guys.
> 
> What we really need is a leader of Ron Paul's stature to get involved and rally people to do something like what I said.
> 
> Does anybody have any doubt which approach he would endorse?


Has Ron weighed in on this?

----------


## JK/SEA

> Is the thinking here that people who go there with guns and shoot back at the cops are less likely to get killed?
> 
> Those hippies at Kent State accomplished a lot more by dying than they would have by killing.


some run from fire.....others run toward it....

on your knees or on your feet. Doesn't seem to make much difference what 'strategy' you subscribe to in stemming the tide of tyranny...flower power or '$#@! you' power...

this 'incident with Bundy is striking a chord with Patriots....rightfully so.

----------


## Lucille

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews...edgov-face-off




> On a closer examination, the case against Cliven Bundy is not the open-and-shut case the federal government, the media, and the environmental activist groups, such as the Center for Biological Diversity, make it out to be. As California State University criminology professor Jason Kissner pointed out in a column for American Thinker yesterday, it is the Obama administrations BLM and Attorney General Eric Holder that are engaged in brazen lawlessness. Federal officials are exploiting the fact that few Americans understand the legal complexities of the split estate, prior appropriation doctrine, and other principles governing water rights, grazing rights, and other land use/property rights on public and private lands, that are different in the arid West than in other parts of the country.
> 
> The current battle between the Bundys and the Feds is a replay of the decades-long confrontation between various federal agencies and the late Wayne Hage, the Nevada rancher/liberty activist/scholar who won multiple court victories and landmark decisions against federal overreach. In an interview with The New American in 2002, Hage explained the important legal distinctions that govern property rights in the West, particularly as they apply to so-called public lands.
> 
> For years, the Hage family had been subjected to threats, intimidation, and fines, and  like the Bundys  had their cattle illegally confiscated by federal agents. And, as with the Bundys, the Hages were portrayed by the Feds and their compliant media shills as scofflaws and environmental criminals who deserved to be thrown into the slammer. Last year, as we reported, a federal court once again vindicated the Hages, although by that time Wayne Hage and his wife, former Congresswoman Helen Chenoweth-Hage, had both passed away six years earlier.
> 
> Chief Judge Robert C. Jones of the Federal District Court of Nevada issued a blistering decision that charged officials of the BLM and other agencies with malicious and criminal conduct, and actually engaging in a decades-long conspiracy against the Hages.
> 
> Judge Jones said he found that the government and the agents of the government in that locale, sometime in the 70s and 80s, entered into a conspiracy, a literal, intentional conspiracy, to deprive the Hages of not only their permit grazing rights, for whatever reason, but also to deprive them of their vested property rights under the takings clause, and I find that thats a sufficient basis to hold that there is irreparable harm if I dont ... restrain the government from continuing in that conduct.
> ...


Hage discussed here also.  http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/62362

Related, I don't know who the Barbie twins are, but they claim the BLM is killing wild horses in the most inhumane ways, also for Harry Reid's green energy business cronies.

----------


## Origanalist

*#bundyranch: Report From The Ground
Posted on April 12, 2014*

A reader sends as of 0652EDT today:

I just arrived at the ranch at 0340. So far my phone and iPad are indicating good reception. I drove by the LEO compound on the way in to Mesquite to fill up on fuel. They have generators with flood lights at their entrance. It looks like something reminiscent to Iraq with the way they have their vehicle entry point set up. The barricades are set up to ensure a vehicle can’t penetrate the main gate. They even have a dump truck parked across the entrance to the compound – to further prevent a VBIED attack?

As I drove further down the road I could see flood lights illuminating the dry riverbed. It appears they have an inner and outer perimeter and a third perimeter of early warning equipment. The LEO compound is more than a compound. It is a fire base, pure and simple.

There are 3 satellite news vans parked at the entrance. So far I have seen about 100 cars parked along side the rode. People are sleeping in tents and in their vehicles. I have made friends with the family parked next to me. They said they are from from Utah, Mom and her 2 teenage girls, an older brother and his roommate. All are open carrying.

Going to crash out in the truck. The rally starts at 9. Will try to send updates as I get new useful info.

http://westernrifleshooters.wordpres...om-the-ground/

----------


## JK/SEA

any reason Native Tribes are not engaging?

seems this might be a good way to stick a finger in the FEDS evil eye...

----------


## Carlybee

> any reason Native Tribes are not engaging?
> 
> seems this might be a good way to stick a finger in the FEDS evil eye...



Many of them believe those are their lands to begin with and that Bundy is trespassing.  Also they have been protesting the Keystone pipeline and the further theft of their lands by the govt and doubtfully have received the same type of support Bundy has. At least from the few posts I've seen on FB by some Oglala tribe members on my list that is the impression I get.

----------


## Lucille

Nice speech.  Made me cry a little bit.  That guy knows he could be killed.  h/t http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5488918

----------


## JK/SEA

> Many of them believe those are their lands to begin with and that Bundy is trespassing.  Also they have been protesting the Keystone pipeline and the further theft of their lands by the govt and doubtfully have received the same type of support Bundy has. At least from the few posts I've seen on FB by some Oglala tribe members on my list that is the impression I get.



interesting....seems to me that although their voices from long ago have been muted from the injustice, they still can make those voices heard again, and draw attention to this issue. Being silent only keeps those long ago voices silent. Their choice i suppose. Anger towards the 'white man' hurts them. The Tribes need to speak up now in defense of Bundy, whom by the way appears to respect that land....

Bundy, the Tribes, and the Patriots all have something in common......disdain for the FEDS.....

----------


## Origanalist

I'm really not seeing anything about this on the "conservative" sites. Breitbart, Townhall, Hot Air etc..

----------


## klamath

> Respectfully, I think you are going overboard. You act like everyone there is going to die.


No I said everyone there that gets shot will be a martyr. It was about not being a martyr if you are armed versus being a martyr if you weren't. If it turns into a gun battle everyone VERY well could be shot. IE Waco siege...

----------


## Origanalist

Think Progress weighs in;  

*Armed Right-Wing Militia Members Descend On Nevada To Help Rancher Defy Court Order*


"A protester kicks a police dog during an altercation between law enforcement and supporters of a Nevada rancher"


The suckling continues......hxxp://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...y-court-order/

----------


## phill4paul

> Think Progress weighs in;  
> 
> *Armed Right-Wing Militia Members Descend On Nevada To Help Rancher Defy Court Order*
> 
> 
> "A protester kicks a police dog during an altercation between law enforcement and supporters of a Nevada rancher"
> 
> 
> The suckling continues......http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...y-court-order/


  Assault on a law enforcement officer. Lucky he didn't get flashbanged and lit up.

----------


## newbitech

> It's a very real possibility.


The Feds aren't going to kill everyone.  They will organize a counter protest before they start dropping bombs.  They'll utilize their domestic weapons first.  MO.

----------


## Tod

Anyone else having problems with Facebook for the past few days?  Every other site works fine for me except FB.  I'd like to be sharing this stuff, but can't.

----------


## Tod

> Think Progress weighs in;  
> 
> *Armed Right-Wing Militia Members Descend On Nevada To Help Rancher Defy Court Order*
> 
> 
> "A protester kicks a police dog during an altercation between law enforcement and supporters of a Nevada rancher"
> 
> 
> The suckling continues......hxxp://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...y-court-order/



Look at that dog's tail......looks like he has been chewing the fur on it.

----------


## phill4paul

> Look at that dog's tail......looks like he has been chewing the fur on it.


  No one can understand the stress police dogs live with.

----------


## Carlybee

The left and much of the right continue to bow to their masters. I saw one comment calling for Obama to drone bomb the protesters.

----------


## donnay

Does anyone have any live-feeds?

----------


## ghengis86

> *#bundyranch: Report From The Ground
> Posted on April 12, 2014*
> 
> A reader sends as of 0652EDT today:
> 
> I just arrived at the ranch at 0340. So far my phone and iPad are indicating good reception. I drove by the LEO compound on the way in to Mesquite to fill up on fuel. They have generators with flood lights at their entrance. It looks like something reminiscent to Iraq with the way they have their vehicle entry point set up. The barricades are set up to ensure a vehicle can’t penetrate the main gate. They even have a dump truck parked across the entrance to the compound – to further prevent a VBIED attack?
> 
> As I drove further down the road I could see flood lights illuminating the dry riverbed. It appears they have an inner and outer perimeter and a third perimeter of early warning equipment. The LEO compound is more than a compound. It is a fire base, pure and simple.
> 
> ...


Comment from that post:

"radiopatriot on April 12, 2014 at 09:48
Michael Louis Toups
* * EMERGENCY ALERT * * * ~ The Feds are sending over 100 DHS personnel MRAP vehicles (2 HumVees and the rest have mounted machines guns and armour plating). Cliven may not know this. These messages were hi-jacked from Federal Communications by the other Federal workers. This was not a public announcement. If you know how to contact Cliven or the militias headed to Nevada please call them immediately. The Feds are saying that 30,000 private militia are headed that way to oppose the Feds. I do not fully trust the sources but this info about Cliven seemed to be on the level. This situation has much negative potential. If you have been able and have done this please phone me (336) 420-5355 or use FB to MESSAGE me."

----------


## JK/SEA

> Does anyone have any live-feeds?


this one so far as i know, but it looks like its looping from last night right now?


http://m.ustream.tv/channel/thepetesantillishow

----------


## kahless

> I'm really not seeing anything about this on the "conservative" sites. Breitbart, Townhall, Hot Air etc..


I notice journalists that lean, are or have been Neoconservative are ignoring it or taking the same position as the Progressives which is not usual. These people typically worship the uniform, government authority and will always defend them and all court orders regardless.

----------


## ghengis86

> Does anyone have any live-feeds?


Not that I know of. Maybe there's a twitter hash or something to follow?  Need to get updates out early and often.

----------


## Lucille

Related:  BLM Also Trying to Seize 90,000 Acres Along Red River Border Between Texas & Oklahoma
http://www.theburningplatform.com/20...exas-oklahoma/

----------


## klamath

[QUOTE=osan;5488628]


> You have a gift for the obvious.


Which was in response to someone saying people *weren't* going there to die on that hill.






> Opinion courtesy of your crystal ball?


Really? Do you even have a clue just how much firepower can be brought against a few militia members with small arms. Get a clue.






> You think?  I will tell you what I think: you're smoking things you ought leave alone.  A majority of Americans put a lunatic in the Oval Office not once, but twice.  A vast plurality wants to have his babies and defend his "record" no matter how dismal a failure it is.  They are hopelessly bereft of intellect, integrity, honesty, or any other virtue you may care to name.  They are cowards of the lowest order, by and large, and will do NOTHING no matter the trespass.


Unlike 90% of the people around here I don't smoke that stuff. You are right that there is no guarantee that the public would turn against the feds but I still maintain that you have a whole lot better chance of winning the public opinion war if it isn't a two sided gun war.






> Which is, of course, nonsense... unless you can provide factual figures proving that 90% of all armies that have engaged in battle have been killed, in which case I will have to concede the point, but not until then.


We are not talking about national armies, we are talking about small bands of revolutionaries pitting themselves against a public that is 70-80-90% against them and supporting the feds.

----------


## Origanalist

> We are not talking about national armies, we are talking about small bands of revolutionaries pitting themselves against a public that is 70-80-90% against them and supporting the feds.


Do you have anything to justify that statement?

----------


## ghengis86

Don't know if its been posted previously but they're having a meeting with the county sheriff at 9am. The Bundy Ranch Facebook page has the updates. FYI

----------


## tod evans

> Do you have anything to justify that statement?


I haven't spoke to one man against standing up to the feds..

Admittedly my circle is small and local though...

----------


## AuH20

A report from Bunkersville:




> I just arrived at the ranch at 0340. So far my phone and iPad are indicating good reception. I drove by the LEO compound on the way in to Mesquite to fill up on fuel. They have generators with flood lights at their entrance. It looks like something reminiscent to Iraq with the way they have their vehicle entry point set up. The barricades are set up to ensure a vehicle can’t penetrate the main gate. They even have a dump truck parked across the entrance to the compound – to further prevent a VBIED attack?
> 
> As I drove further down the road I could see flood lights illuminating the dry riverbed. It appears they have an inner and outer perimeter and a third perimeter of early warning equipment. The LEO compound is more than a compound. It is a fire base, pure and simple.
> 
> There are 3 satellite news vans parked at the entrance. So far I have seen about 100 cars parked along side the rode. People are sleeping in tents and in their vehicles. I have made friends with the family parked next to me. They said they are from from Utah, Mom and her 2 teenage girls, an older brother and his roommate. All are open carrying.
> 
> Going to crash out in the truck. The rally starts at 9. Will try to send updates as I get new useful info.

----------


## klamath

> Do you have anything to justify that statement?


Do you have *Anything* saying people support a violent overthrow of the government??? 7 years after Waco the public still supported the feds over the dividians. At the time 70% supported the Feds. 
Read the freaking comments after any article on this! The  left solidly support the feds over the right wing extremists and a good portion of the urban republicans are calling Bundy a welfare recipient because he is getting free grazing rights without paying for it and breaking the law and court orders..

----------


## limequat

During the American Revolution 70% supported the crown.

----------


## Origanalist

> Do you have *Anything* saying people support a violent overthrow of the government??? 7 years after Waco the public still supported the feds over the dividians. At the time 70% supported the Feds. 
> Read the freaking comments after any article on this! The  left solidly support the feds over the right wing extremists and a good portion of the urban republicans are calling Bundy a welfare recipient because he is getting free grazing rights without paying for it and breaking the law and court orders..


That's a pretty big leap from defending a rancher from being driven off his land for the pretext of saving the turtles so Harry Reid and his son can cash in to supporting a "violent overthrow of the government".

It seems to me the major threats of violence are coming from the government.

Read the comments at the link pcosmar posted in another thread,
https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/w...-bundy-roundup

----------


## AuH20

> During the American Revolution 70% supported the crown.


Yup. 30% of 300+ million is a big problem for the Feds. A  HUGE PROBLEM. I'm not saying those 30% will lend themselves to actively participate but it's not an encouraging trend from their perspective. The mouth breathers housed in the various cities are a lost cause. They are dead men walking. Can't worry about them.

----------


## AuH20

Right on cue

[

----------


## klamath

> That's a pretty big leap from defending a rancher from being driven off his land for the pretext of saving the turtles so Harry Reid and his son can cash in to supporting a "violent overthrow of the government".


The "70-80-90%" was a general statement about a armed revolution and  wasn't necessarily about Bundy
Also please don't confuse the issue. It is NOT bundy's land they are taking it is the rights he has had for over a hundred to use PUBLIC land, Calling it his land discredits his case.

----------


## AuH20

A continued series of abuses

----------


## klamath

> During the American Revolution 70% supported the crown.


Where's your polling on that?

----------


## CaseyJones



----------


## Origanalist

Well, I'm outta here. I need to get to work so I can donate to those that can be there.

----------


## Voluntarist

xxxxx

----------


## pcosmar

Don't know if this is serious or a ploy..

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/252303...-bundy-and-blm




> LAS VEGAS -- A major development is percolating in the showdown at the Bundy ranch in Bunkerville, Nevada -- a possible deal is in the works. It's an 8 News Now exclusive.
> 
> The I-Team has learned that a tentative deal has been brokered by Clark County Sheriff Doug Gillespie to de-escalate the tense standoff between rancher Cliven Bundy and his supporters and the Bureau of Land Management.
> 
> Sources tell the I-Team that Sheriff Gillespie has negotiated a potential agreement in which the BLM would halt its roundup of Bundy's cattle and withdraw its employees from the Gold Butte area.



I guess it is "yet to be seen".

----------


## limequat

> Where's your polling on that?


Courtesy of John Adams:

http://hnn.us/article/5641

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Forget violent methods. They're doomed to fail. They'll get people killed. And they'll only turn the public against the cause.
> 
> The kind of courage we really need people to have here is the courage of nonviolent resistance. All these people who want to go help should go unarmed, line themselves up around this man's family and cattle, kneel down, show their hands, hold out flowers and other signs of peace to the police, have a prayer vigil, make the government agents arrest them by the hundreds, and get this all on video.


If America is ever going to rise up, then this is the kind of thing that would precipitate it.  It always has been.  The Boston Massacre.  Less on point Lexington Green.  Remember in V for Vendetta where that little girl was the trigger.  It's human psychology and western morality.  For all those who keep asking if it is time yet, it will be something like what erowe describes here that will make America decide that it's time.

----------


## Lucille

It made ZH.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-0...are-ready-snap



> There are those who might argue that America crossed the “red line” long ago and now our society is simply rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic while arguing over futile semantics. In certain respects, I can see their point. The U.S. political system is utterly lost. Anyone who still has faith in the Left/Right paradigm after two terms of George W. Bush and nearly two terms of Barack Obama is either insane, or mentally challenged. It should be obvious to Republicans and Democrats alike that our government does NOT represent the average man, and our election process is a sham. Democrats in particular should be equally furious and ashamed as the candidate they blindly worshiped to the point of cultism has now forsaken every value they thought he represented.
> 
> The legal apparatus of the U.S. is also beyond repair. Those in the mainstream who argue that grievances with government should be addressed by the courts instead of independent action obviously have not considered that the courts continuously uphold and defend legislation like that contained within the NDAA, which allows for rendition, torture, and even assassination of American citizens without trial or due process. And where are the prosecutions of Constitutional violations by the NSA? Why aren't men like James Clapper in prison for lying directly to Congress. Why hasn't Eric Holder been slapped in irons for his involvement with “Fast and Furious”? And what about the international financiers who back these politicians? How many of them have been prosecuted for their involvement in the toxic derivatives scandals that are destroying our economy to this day?
> 
> No, we lost the courts a long time ago. They will do nothing to save this country. But is the fight already over? I think not.
> 
> Nihilism is tempting for those people who are lazy and frightened and looking for a philosophical excuse to run away from making a stand. *Claiming the fight is lost before it has truly begun is a longstanding tradition amongst millions upon millions of cowards through history. Every freedom fighter in every great revolution for liberty has heard the same arguments that we hear today – “It's too late to change things. The enemy is too powerful and you will be crushed. The nail that sticks up will eventually be hammered down. Your movement is a minority on the fringe and no one will support you. None of you have the guts to really follow through...”*

----------


## Occam's Banana

> During the American Revolution 70% supported the crown.





> Where's your polling on that?





> Courtesy of John Adams:
> 
> http://hnn.us/article/5641


This is a very common misinterpretation of what Adams actually wrote.
Adams was NOT referring to American support for the American Revolution.
He was actually referring to American opinion regarding the French Revolution.

Also, the hnn.us article is actually arguing against what it is being cited in support for here.

FTA (emphasis added): http://hnn.us/article/5641



> The most common piece of evidence cited in numerous books about the Revolution is a letter of John Adams indicating that one third of the Americans were for the Revolution, another third were against it, and a final third were neutral or indifferent to the whole affair.
> 
> Oddly, this is the view of the Revolution essentially held by the British at the time. English leaders appeared to believe that only a minority of rebellious Americans, although well organized, desired independence from the Mother Country. Both times British armies ventured into the interior, it was on the assumption there were large numbers of Loyalists there who would support the King's cause.
> 
> Significantly, for over a century, a number of American intellectuals, ranging recently from Daniel Elsberg of Vietnam War Pentagon Papers fame, to Irving Kristol, the "Godfather" of today's Neoconservative Iraq Hawks, have cited the Adams' letter as gospel.
> 
> *A close reading, however, of Adams' letter indicates just the opposite.* The "well-known" letter of Adams was to James Lloyd, dated January, 1813. Written so many years after the American Revolution, it becomes clear that Adams was actually discussing American opinion about England and the French Revolution during his presidency, 1797-1801:


For a good breakdown and more details regarding this issue, see here: http://allthingsliberty.com/2013/02/...ule-of-thirds/

----------


## Occam's Banana

> Think Progress weighs in;  
> 
> *Armed Right-Wing Militia Members Descend On Nevada To Help Rancher Defy Court Order*
> 
> 
> "A protester kicks a police dog during an altercation between law enforcement and supporters of a Nevada rancher"

----------


## Dr.3D

> Forget violent methods. They're doomed to fail. They'll get people killed. And they'll only turn the public against the cause.
> 
> The kind of courage we really need people to have here is the courage of nonviolent resistance. All these people who want to go help should go unarmed, line themselves up around this man's family and cattle, kneel down, show their hands, hold out flowers and other signs of peace to the police, have a prayer vigil, make the government agents arrest them by the hundreds, and get this all on video.


Reading this post brought visions of the '60s when there was a major protest against the war in Vietnam.  I will say, I agree with it.   It wasn't so very long after protesters started using this style of resistance, our people were brought home.

And kids often consider people who were young in the '60s as old fogies who never tried to change anything.  LOL

----------


## Carson

> *****I JUST HAD AN IDEA******
> 
> Can someone who is in contact with folks on the ground pitch to them the idea of bringing a bunch of mirrors to the sites of protest? 
> 
> The idea is to let the enforcers see how their tyranny really looks from the receiving end. I saw this tactic used by the European protestors (I think in Ukraine), and I think it would be effective here as well...and if nothing else...the extra heat reflected onto them, in that desert sun, would annoy the sh*t out of the enforcers. It's worth a try.



I remember something else about the mirrors. This is a link to a post with a picture the way the mirror people started out from the old mirror thread of ours:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5424038


This is a link to a picture at Fark showing they way the crowd evolved after a couple of days(?). That is unless I have it all wrong.

http://www.fark.com/comments/8153172/89414002#c89414002


_"Many protesters also brought signs that read, “Who are you protecting?”"_

Kind of looks like they are showing up prepared to protect themselves.

----------


## green73

* 
UPDATE: Sheriff Announces BLM 'Will Cease Operation'...
Lawmaker: Cattle Roundup 'Reminded Me Of Tiananmen Square'...
Feds Refuse to Say If Animals Euthanized...
 Charlie Daniels: First test of military against citizens?



**FEDS RETREAT IN NEVADA RANGE WAR 
 *

----------


## GunnyFreedom

The next time they try this, they will do mostly the same thing but they will not set up 1st Amendment areas in advance.  From their perspective they will reason that that is what triggered it.

----------


## AuH20

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/0...s-perspective?

Frightened that so many 'dangerous' militia types are flooding into the state of Nevada? LOL Calling Bundy a 1 percenter and welfare queen? Stating that libertarians break 'contracts' all the time to their advantage? LOL Claiming that we would never ride to the aid of a black rancher? ROFL

----------


## youngbuck

> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/0...s-perspective?
> 
> Frightened that so many 'dangerous' militia types are flooding into the state of Nevada? LOL Calling Bundy a 1 percenter and welfare queen? Stating that libertarians break 'contracts' all the time to their advantage? LOL Claiming that we would never ride to the aid of a black rancher? ROFL


  I wouldn't give that drivel any traffic.  Confused statist/authoritarian is confused.

----------


## pcosmar

> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/0...s-perspective?
> 
> Frightened that so many 'dangerous' militia types are flooding into the state of Nevada? LOL Calling Bundy a 1 percenter and welfare queen? Stating that libertarians break 'contracts' all the time to their advantage? LOL Claiming that we would never ride to the aid of a black rancher? ROFL


Apparently are missing the skin color of some supporters and Militia.

expect as much from SPLC parrots.

----------


## erowe1

> During the American Revolution 70% supported the crown.


And look what the American Revolution got us.

----------


## Anti Federalist

When this place goes Full Nazi Retard, which it is one "terror" attack away from doing, this is what passive resistance will get you.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> And look what the American Revolution got us.


At some point the political objective becomes irrelevant, and it is just a question of survival, or kicking your oppressors in the nuts on the way out.

----------


## Anti Federalist

////

----------


## AuH20

> At some point the political objective becomes irrelevant, and it is just a question of survival, or kicking your oppressors in the nuts on the way out.


Correct. Stop becoming an easy meal.

----------


## erowe1

> When this place goes Full Nazi Retard, which it is one "terror" attack away from doing, this is what passive resistance will get you.


Those Nazis. How'd that work out for them?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> This is a very common misinterpretation of what Adams actually wrote.
> Adams was NOT referring to American support for the American Revolution.
> He was actually referring to American opinion regarding the French Revolution.


Quite true, but support for Independence was far from monolithic, or majority at that time.

----------


## pcosmar

> Those Nazis. How'd that work out for them?


They are still around and still stirring $#@!.

Many of them right here in the US.  But all through Europe.. (see Ukraine)

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Those Nazis. How'd that work out for them?


Germany is still here, still a world and economic power and many NAZI "higher ups" were brought here to the US.

Or went on to become head of the UN

All those millions of people however, are rotting in the ground.

Their only and last act of defiance a cold glare into a NAZI photographer's camera.

That's our children's future if we don't stop this.

----------


## Anti Federalist

From Occam's link:


Let’s start with some basics.  According to the U.S. Census Bureau the population of the 13 American colonies in 1770 was 2.1 million people, including about 459,000 slaves.  In 1776, the population of the colonies (then the United States) had grown to 2.5 million.  In 1780 it was 2.7 million.  Such growth makes figuring general percentages of Loyalists a challenge because the population baseline was a moving target.  Sentiments also varied by region, opinions about the Rebellion changed over time, and loyalties shifted.  And with a population of over 2 million, in an era before the emergence of political opinion polling (that occurred in the nineteenth century), the views of most Americans went unrecorded because nobody ever asked them what they thought.  Knocking on doors and polling about loyalties would not have been a wise practice during the Revolution anyhow.  At best, you’d get a door slammed in your face.  At worst you could wind up tarred and feathered, which made for messy record keeping.

But you can still draw some conclusions through a review of period records and the application of statistical analysis, ratios, and other mathematics that I failed in high school. Historian Thomas Fleming offers that there may have been 75,000 to 100,000 Loyalists in America during the Revolution and that 60,000 to 80,000 fled after the war.  In a thorough 1968 study, historian Paul H. Smith estimated that Loyalists comprised about 16% of America’s total population and a precise 19.8% of free citizens.  And historian Robert Calhoon wrote that probably 15 to 20% of adult white males remained loyal to Britain, and that 40 to 45% of the free population, “at most no more than a bare majority” actively supported the Patriots.

Let’s add some context to the numbers, because even the U.S. Census Bureau – the oracle of counting people – has called statistics “a valuable adjunct to historical analysis,” (my emphasis).  Minority though they were, the Loyalists still presented significant opposition to the Patriots.  In his 1813 letter to McKean, Adams acknowledged the difficulties of overcoming Loyalist opposition in New York, Pennsylvania and in the South.  About 19,000 men served in American provincial regiments according to Paul Smith, and they fought with conviction.  Loyalists played major roles in the New York campaign, on the frontier, raiding Connecticut, in the Mohawk Valley, and especially at battles such as Camden, King’s Mountain, Cowpens, and Guilford Court House, among others.  But in comparison to their numbers, note that over 100,000 men served in the Continental Army over the course of the war, not counting the militia.  In this light the Loyalist and Patriot efforts were nowhere near equal.

----------


## youngbuck

Attachment 2314

----------


## Anti Federalist

From Occam's link:


Lets start with some basics.  According to the U.S. Census Bureau the population of the 13 American colonies in 1770 was 2.1 million people, including about 459,000 slaves.  In 1776, the population of the colonies (then the United States) had grown to 2.5 million.  In 1780 it was 2.7 million.  Such growth makes figuring general percentages of Loyalists a challenge because the population baseline was a moving target.  Sentiments also varied by region, opinions about the Rebellion changed over time, and loyalties shifted.  And with a population of over 2 million, in an era before the emergence of political opinion polling (that occurred in the nineteenth century), the views of most Americans went unrecorded because nobody ever asked them what they thought.  Knocking on doors and polling about loyalties would not have been a wise practice during the Revolution anyhow.  At best, youd get a door slammed in your face.  At worst you could wind up tarred and feathered, which made for messy record keeping.

But you can still draw some conclusions through a review of period records and the application of statistical analysis, ratios, and other mathematics that I failed in high school. Historian Thomas Fleming offers that there may have been 75,000 to 100,000 Loyalists in America during the Revolution and that 60,000 to 80,000 fled after the war.  In a thorough 1968 study, historian Paul H. Smith estimated that Loyalists comprised about 16% of Americas total population and a precise 19.8% of free citizens.  And historian Robert Calhoon wrote that probably 15 to 20% of adult white males remained loyal to Britain, and that 40 to 45% of the free population, at most no more than a bare majority actively supported the Patriots.

Lets add some context to the numbers, because even the U.S. Census Bureau  the oracle of counting people  has called statistics a valuable adjunct to historical analysis, (my emphasis).  Minority though they were, the Loyalists still presented significant opposition to the Patriots.  In his 1813 letter to McKean, Adams acknowledged the difficulties of overcoming Loyalist opposition in New York, Pennsylvania and in the South.  About 19,000 men served in American provincial regiments according to Paul Smith, and they fought with conviction.  Loyalists played major roles in the New York campaign, on the frontier, raiding Connecticut, in the Mohawk Valley, and especially at battles such as Camden, Kings Mountain, Cowpens, and Guilford Court House, among others.  But in comparison to their numbers, note that over 100,000 men served in the Continental Army over the course of the war, not counting the militia.  In this light the Loyalist and Patriot efforts were nowhere near equal.

----------


## Lucille

Why The Standoff At The Bundy Ranch Is A Very Big Deal
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-0...-very-big-deal



> However, the reason the Bundy Ranch confrontation is so interesting, is that for whatever reason this particular incident seems to be striking a chord of dissent. It is often times the most random, unforeseen and innocuous things that spark social/political movements. This standoff has it all.
> [...]
> The fact that a U.S. Senator and the Governor are publicly coming out agains the feds is in my opinion a very big deal and may signal the beginning of a true fracturing in the social fabric. Something that I have been expecting for many years.
> [...]
> The kindling for social upheaval has been growing in America for quite some time. Disrespectful and ignorant statements from billionaire oligarchs like Sam Zell only make it worse. The question in my mind has always been what will the catalyst be to spark the brushfire? Will it be the Bundy Ranch? Well have to wait and see.
> 
> Personally, I hope cooler heads prevail and there is no violence, because once you head down the road of violent confrontation between the people and the feds you are opening up a can of worms that will not easily be bottled up again. In such a situation, everybody loses. However, my long-term fear is that unless the government and its puppet masters on Wall Street and elsewhere in big business change course, social upheaval will prove inevitable, whether the Bundy Ranch sparks it, or some other incident down the road. These are troubled times and they are likely going to get worse before they get better.

----------


## HOLLYWOOD

The Pete Santelli Show ... Their LIVE FEED audio is picking up their conversation about "Alex Jones and INFOWARS turning activism into $#@! and ruining the activism and rallying points. Scaring people away, inducing the 'state of fear' into listeners. That's why activists are not showing up... AJ/INFOWARS is scaring Americans away."


http://www.ustream.tv/channel/thepetesantillishow
LOL

----------


## pcosmar

> The Pete Santelli Show ... Their LIVE FEED audio is picking up their conversation about "Alex Jones and INFOWARS turning activism into $#@! and ruining the activism and rallying points. Scaring people away, inducing the 'state of fear' into listeners. That's why activists are not showing up... AJ/INFOWARS is scaring Americans away."
> 
> 
> http://www.ustream.tv/channel/thepetesantillishow
> 
> 
> 
> LOL



As he sat well away from it,, with dead batteries.

Yeah,, I had both streams open.
Am watching AJs live stream of supporters that aren't there.

----------


## mrsat_98

http://www.blm.gov/nv/st/en/fo/lvfo/...ss_cattle.html
BLM>Nevada>District Offices>Southern Nevada District Office
Print Page

Impound Operation Concluded

Statement from Director of the Bureau of Land Management Neil Kornze on the Cattle Gather in Nevada: 

As we have said from the beginning of the gather to remove illegal cattle from federal land consistent with court orders, a safe and peaceful operation is our number one priority. After one week, we have made progress in enforcing two recent court orders to remove the trespass cattle from public lands that belong to all Americans. 

Based on information about conditions on the ground, and in consultation with law enforcement, we have made a decision to conclude the cattle gather because of our serious concern about the safety of employees and members of the public. 

We ask that all parties in the area remain peaceful and law-abiding as the Bureau of Land Management and National Park Service work to end the operation in an orderly manner. 

Ranching has always been an important part of our nations heritage and continues throughout the West on public lands that belong to all Americans. This is a matter of fairness and equity, and we remain disappointed that Cliven Bundy continues to not comply with the same laws that 16,000 public lands ranchers do every year.* After 20 years and multiple court orders to remove the trespass cattle, Mr. Bundy owes the American taxpayers in excess of $1 million. The BLM will continue to work to resolve the matter administratively and judicially*

----------


## Tod

Quite a few #BundyRanch tweets are anti-Bundy, anti-"right wingers", etc

----------


## tod evans

> That free speech zone was devastating to the Feds. The lost the public opinion battle on that one. They knew a showdown would lose the public opinion war for them. 
> It was a visceral reaction in that the fenced off area looked like a concentration camp.


Idaho just a few years ago.....

----------


## mad cow

> 


Somebody should photoshop that sign to read Desert Tortoise Area.

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## liberalnurse

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...2?feedType=RSS 




> The protesters, who at the height of the standoff numbered about 1,000, met the news with applause. Then they quickly advanced on the metal pens where the cattle confiscated earlier in the week were being held.
> 
> After consultations with the rancher and his family, the bureau ultimately decided to release the cattle it had rounded up, and the crowd began to disperse.
> 
> A number of Bundy's supporters, who included militia members from California, Idaho and other states, dressed in camouflage and carried rifles and sidearms. During the stand-off, some chanted "open that gate" and "free the people."
> 
> *A man who identified himself as Scott, 43, said he had traveled from Idaho along with two fellow militia members to support Bundy.
> 
> "If we don't show up everywhere, there is no reason to show up anywhere," said the man, dressed in camouflage pants and a black flak jacket crouched behind a concrete highway barrier, holding an AR-15 rifle.
> ...

----------


## twomp

> http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...2?feedType=RSS


Quote from that article:




> In an interview prior the bureau's announcement, Bundy said he was impressed by the level of support he had received.
> 
> "*I'm excited that we are really fighting for our freedom. We've been losing it for a long time*," Bundy said.

----------


## Carson

> 



Kind of a good idea when you think of the possibilities. Maybe we should be setting them up some zones.

----------


## FloralScent

> When this place goes Full Nazi Retard, which it is one "terror" attack away from doing, this is what passive resistance will get you.


...or armed resistance if you lose like those guys found out.  Don't lose, or if you do, don't get taken alive.

----------


## klamath

> Looked like a park compared to Boston's:


No way the same reaction. One small area in a vast desert with first admendment area signs speaks a lot deeper as it obviously did.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> No way the same reaction. One small area in a vast desert with first admendment area signs speaks a lot deeper as it obviously did.


Perhaps.

I maintain it's a matter of perspective.

A double walled chain cage is more "chilling" than a dust bowl hemmed out in plastic snow fence.

Regardless, the only reason Cliven Bundy has his cattle back tonight is because hundreds of people with guns showed up and made the FedCoats blink.

----------


## AuH20



----------


## AuH20

Just read this on DU:




> Because Conservatives brought guns. They don't beg for permission. They don't hang out in free speech zones. They forced the government to back down for everyone's safety.
> 
> Occupy hung out in a park until forced to move. They offered no resistance. Cops swooped in, stole and disposed of their $#@!, and arrested a bunch of people. If Occupy had built barricades and weapons, things would have been different.
> Jackbooted thugs like cops are bullies and cowards. They won't risk their lives if they can help it. They prey on the weak. You resist with any amount of force, they will back down. BLM proved that today.

----------


## aGameOfThrones

> 



a cop would have had his finger on the trigger

----------


## Tod

hahaha....maybe, just maybe, that will get some of the anti nuts to thinking.

----------


## AuH20

For what it's worth. This could all be BS, but stay vigilant:

http://www.stevequayle.com/index.php?s=33&d=877




> At 1750 hours ET, I was contacted by my source within the Department of Homeland Security regarding the current situation at the Bundy Ranch. To put it bluntly, the people are being hoodwinked into believing that the situation is being resolved. It is not. It is a strategic de-escalation to fool the public. This source stated that the retreat of the BLM agents and the release of the cattle was actually crafted as a potential plan yesterday (Friday, 11 April 2014) based on the following:
> 
> 1. A military assessment of satellite and drone surveillance imagery of the “patriot resistance. Drones under the control of the U.S. military were in use, taking real-time photographic images of not just the activity at the ranch, but "identifying the protesters, any arms and any supplies they might have or be carrying. “Mission accomplished.”
> 2. Real-time communication intercepts between patriots on-site and their off-site support;
> 3. Active monitoring of internet traffic regarding the coverage of events at ranch;
> 4. The monitoring of real-time video from the scene.
> 
> This source stated that a response by the patriot movement was anticipated, although exceeded their expectations. Although this was a real operation, they also ran this as a test case for future government operations once they saw the response. They were also actively managing the media, in some cases threatening to cut off White House access to anyone covering the event.
> 
> ...

----------


## AuH20

How did Daily Mail get this guy's name? Not good. 

*Firepower: Protester Eric Parker from central Idaho aims his weapon from a bridge next to the Bureau of Land Management's base camp where seized cattle*

----------


## Anti Federalist

Oh...that sign...erk...<twitch>

This bothers my OCD way beyond reason.

OK, people, listen up once again!

In this, and most, contexts, you do *NOT* mean:

*Marshall* Law.



You mean THIS:

*Martial Law*








> * 
> UPDATE: Sheriff Announces BLM 'Will Cease Operation'...
> Lawmaker: Cattle Roundup 'Reminded Me Of Tiananmen Square'...
> Feds Refuse to Say If Animals Euthanized...
>  Charlie Daniels: First test of military against citizens?
> 
> 
> 
> **FEDS RETREAT IN NEVADA RANGE WAR 
>  *

----------


## Weston White

An amazing photo, such little to visualize, and yet it speaks enough to fill volumes.

----------


## idiom

So we should all still be planning to head up there with all the lead flingers we can carry right?

----------


## CPUd

> For what it's worth. This could all be BS, but stay vigilant:
> 
> http://www.stevequayle.com/index.php?s=33&d=877


It's bull$#@!.

Not saying they won't come back, but if they are, that guy doesn't know anything about it.

----------


## tod evans

> For what it's worth. This could all be BS, but stay vigilant:





> It's bull$#@!.
> 
> Not saying they won't come back, but if they are, that guy doesn't know anything about it.


This would absolutely fit their modus-operandi...

----------


## evandeck

Apparently the solar plan made by Harry Reid was cancelled years ago and wasn't even on the Bundy Ranch. 
http://m.dailykos.com/story/2014/04/...ence-in-Nevada

I find it hard to believe that the solar company mentioned was the only company to work in Nevada somehow connected to Reid. Also, I love how Kos is slamming the "Right-Wing web" yet they think it's ok to trust a leftist website like their's.

----------


## limequat

> It's bull$#@!.
> 
> Not saying they won't come back, but if they are, that guy doesn't know anything about it.


Don't know.  It rang of truth to me.  
Didn't seem just a little "too easy"?  

How many employees does DHS have?  How many billions of rounds of ammo?

----------


## FloralScent

> Don't know.  It rang of truth to me.  
> Didn't seem just a little "too easy"?  
> 
> How many employees does DHS have?  How many billions of rounds of ammo?


They didn't expect armed resistance, and are clearly are not willing to die for a paycheck.

----------


## tod evans

> They didn't expect armed resistance, and are clearly are not willing to die for a paycheck.


No but the low-life pieces of $#@! will kill for a paycheck....

----------


## Origanalist

> Just read this on DU:


What is the DU? I probably will feel dumb once the question is answered but.....

----------


## klamath

The feds didn't back down because of fear of getting shot, they backed down because a bloodbath in the desert over a few cows eating grass would have turned horrible bad for them and could have seen congressional action to curtail  the feds power over land management. *That* _is what they fear_.

----------


## klamath

> What is the DU? I probably will feel dumb once the question is answered but.....


 democratic underground

----------


## CaseyJones

> democratic underground


oh I was thinking it was called daily underground *yawn* I need coffee

----------


## Carlybee

> What is the DU? I probably will feel dumb once the question is answered but.....


Democrat Underground

----------


## Origanalist

> democratic underground


Ok ,I don't feel dumb.

----------


## Origanalist

> The feds didn't back down because of fear of getting shot, they backed down because a bloodbath in the desert over a few cows eating grass would have turned horrible bad for them and could have seen congressional action to curtail  the feds power over land management. *That* _is what they fear_.


Would they have had to fear that with a crowd of protesters armed with flowers?

----------


## Carson

> Apparently the solar plan made by Harry Reid was cancelled years ago and wasn't even on the Bundy Ranch. 
> http://m.dailykos.com/story/2014/04/...ence-in-Nevada
> 
> I find it hard to believe that the solar company mentioned was the only company to work in Nevada somehow connected to Reid. Also, I love how Kos is slamming the "Right-Wing web" yet they think it's ok to trust a leftist website like their's.


I heard before this came off that the power plant proposed was 200 miles south of somewhere and the ranch is 200 miles north.

I also heard that 1000'S of ranchers are getting along with the BLM.

Maybe that is kind of part of the beauty of what happened. Enough people are hearing about the little guys being forced out for reasons that usually have less merit than the support spins merit. So perhaps even with everyone being somewhat misguided, people are willing to come the the aid of a fellow American.


I made a comment;




> Don't forget. As long as they can fire up the fake money presses and print up what ever it takes to get their way, we walk on eggshells.



And a Patriot responded with this;




> no eggshells here. 
> more like time to form "Liberty response teams"
> this game is NOT over, by a longshot.
> and now I understand the meaning of the term "Minutemen"



Or I should say a *MINUTEMAN* responded.

Maybe this will be a growing trend!

----------


## youngbuck

> For what it's worth. This could all be BS, but stay vigilant:
> 
> http://www.stevequayle.com/index.php?s=33&d=877


I agree, stay vigilant, but Steve Quayle dispenses extremely unreliable, the-sky-is-falling type information on a regular basis.  He's continually claiming to be privy to confidential information from the inner circles of government and elsewhere, yet nothing ever comes to fruition or unfolds how he authoritatively asserts.

----------


## klamath

> Would they have had to fear that with a crowd of protesters armed with flowers?


 Yep if the crowd would have impeded their actions to steal the cattle forcing them to use brutal force against the protesters would not have worked for them as well. Do you really believe they couldn't have brought overwhelming firepower and won? They sure as hell had that option but they knew they would have lost the propaganda war which would have lost them great power.
The fact that there was guns on both side only made the possibility of a faster, larger bloodbath more likely, again making them lose the propaganda war.

----------


## ronpaulhawaii



----------


## Red Green

I watched Meet the Press and Faux News Sunday this morning and not a peep about the standoff.  MSM blackout?  They don't want to announce that the emperor has no clothes?

----------


## Carlybee

Libtard comment I saw on a Bundy support page on Facebook:




> They should have taken out every member of the family and every person stupid enough to back this idiot. He knows he is not on his land and has no rights there. This ignorant bastard has inflamed a bunch of radical fools to back his illegal play. I hope he ends up losing every thing including his life.

----------


## pcosmar

> Yep if the crowd would have impeded their actions to steal the cattle forcing them to use brutal force against the protesters would not have worked for them as well.* Do you really believe they couldn't have brought overwhelming firepower and won?*


Yes.. I believe that.

I believe that they found their sniper nests (Observation posts) filled with Cow $#@!. And knew those positions were compromised and targeted.

I believe that they could see the reflection of scopes in the hills surrounding them

I believe the Highway patrol report (that I heard) that verified 200 rifles trained on them.

I believe that if they had started shooting at the peaceful protesters,, they would have been cut to ribbons in seconds..

And their starting it would have been recorded.

I also believe the all the resources of the US and Russia have not been able to "win" in Afghanistan.

They would have no better success in Nevada.

----------


## AuH20

BLM is pissed:

----------


## AuH20

If that BLM agent wants us to change the courts, but unfortunately I don't have billions of dollars lying around. It's such a copout. Secondly, Article 1 Sec 8 Clause 17 states that Cliven Bundy is in the right. 

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/found...s/a1_8_17.html

----------


## AuH20



----------


## ghengis86

Here's my one thought after all of this: the Feds 'lost' this battle for one simple reason. The Internetz. Facebook, Twitter, RPFs, numerous other forums, e-mails, etc were used to get this story out. There was an MSM blackout for a reason. And it continues. 

Before there can be a 'next time' they will figure out a way to blackout the decentralized distribution of information so they Minutemen can't be scrambled quickly or effectively. The next battle will be over the virtual landscape before they try it in the physical world. That you can bet on.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Here's my one thought after all of this: the Feds 'lost' this battle for one simple reason. The Internetz. Facebook, Twitter, RPFs, numerous other forums, e-mails, etc were used to get this story out. There was an MSM blackout for a reason. And it continues. 
> 
> Before there can be a 'next time' they will figure out a way to blackout the decentralized distribution of information so they Minutemen can't be scrambled quickly or effectively. The next battle will be over the virtual landscape before they try it in the physical world. That you can bet on.


Now see, I don't get MSM at all so I don't see the blackout.  I've talked to people about this and they didn't even know it was going on, which confused me at first, but it quickly made sense.  I am guessing the M$M is scarcely carrying anything about this at all?

----------


## JK/SEA

MSM blacks themselves out....$#@! em..

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> BLM is pissed:


@6:00 actually, yes, legal decisions ARE made 'at the surface.'  They are made by _everybody who has sworn the Oath_.  This requires you to _not do_ anything that you, *personally*, believe is _in violation_ of the Constitution.  This is why the Constitution itself requires the Oath of office.  It is the last, and best defense of Constitutional government, and the brainwash this BLM man has suffered and is trying to express is distressing.  "Of course it's Constitutional!! I AM TEH GOOBEMINT!"

This part is important.  Everybody who swears the Oath, swears to first and above all, _to not do whatever_ abrogates the Constitution, _no matter what_ someone higher on the food chain may have once said about the matter.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Libtard comment I saw on a Bundy support page on Facebook:


Perfect.  I only wish he had added "And I voted for OBAMA!"

----------


## ClydeCoulter

Has anyone seen any footage from Santilli of the final showdown?  He was charging his camera with it pointed at traffic, then a few minutes of it repeated over and over while the final showdown and release of the cattle was happening.  People viewing his live stream were getting pissed that he didn't stream what was happening live.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Has anyone seen any footage from Santilli of the final showdown?  He was charging his camera with it pointed at traffic, then a few minutes of it repeated over and over while the final showdown and release of the cattle was happening.  People viewing his live stream were getting pissed that he didn't stream what was happening live.


Yeah, you win and lose.  AJ had it live for those who wanted it.  Santilli got into this BLM guy though and got him to say some pretty next-level stuff for a (partially hidden?) microphone.  That was before they backed off, April 10 I believe.  This will make the case all the more damning if DHS returns in force.

Obama has to be freaking out right now.  He is President and you have an armed freaking uprising of Americans...

----------


## Tod

> Has anyone seen any footage from Santilli of the final showdown?  He was charging his camera with it pointed at traffic, then a few minutes of it repeated over and over while the final showdown and release of the cattle was happening.  People viewing his live stream were getting pissed that he didn't stream what was happening live.



That was the last I saw too.  I think he made technical errors regarding battery changing/charging/life and filming location and missed the story.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

Obama either has to acknowledge that RKBA has accomplished what the Framers intended, or somehow brand the Bundy uprising as unlawful, regardless of his response.  If he chooses to brand the uprising as unlawful, then he will be politically forced to respond in some way.  Enter the DHS and domestic terror units.  Cooperating with the NSA to identify and locate patriots in the region.  Or maybe something less overt, but in either case expect a "message" of some kind to come down from the Powers that be in the near future.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> That was the last I saw too.  I think he made technical errors regarding battery changing/charging/life and filming location and missed the story.


If he hadn't streamed an hour and a half of dead air he could have caught the event with 100% battery.  Flip the device into airplane mode and it will go from dead to full charge in something like 30 minutes or less.  He's using an iPad.  All he had to do was go dark for a half an hour near the beginning when nothing was happening and he'd have been set.

----------


## AuH20

The peasants met the king's men with a superior force. It shall not be broadcasted on the idiot box.

----------


## WM_in_MO

> Libtard comment I saw on a Bundy support page on Facebook:


We're all terrorists now:
"Its official: American terrorists have officially been green-lit into dying for an old mans unpaid taxes."
hxxp://aattp.org/right-wing-nevada-militia-terrorists-openly-planning-to-kill-federal-agents-video/




> That was the last I saw too.  I think he made  technical errors regarding battery changing/charging/life and filming  location and missed the story.



http://www.amazon.com/15000mAh-Porta...ry+backup+pack

http://www.amazon.com/Goal-Zero-1901...solar+charging

*P*rior *P*lanning *P*revents *P*iss *P*oor *P*erformance

----------


## AuH20

We have seen the ENEMY and he is us!!!:





> *Please, PLEASE do this. First off the predator from orbiting at 33k feet probibly is watching that teatard spank it on hairs duty. And when you do and the bullets start flying all you will here between you sobbing for mommy will be the immediate about face by you cohorts and conservotard media as you are labors domestic terrorists just like in Waco, and OKC.
> 
> Besides, between your load out plan and ROE you will be dead within an hour or so. Treasonous bastards.*
> 
> *Sgt. Jeffery Humphrey
> Former U.S. Army Infantry Squad Leader
> Purple Heart/Iraq Veteran*

----------


## tommyrp12

This is addressing the video.

The reason why the constitutional argument fails is that it is a trust and not a contract, and it was made for the founders and their posterity the preamble does count. So the agent is correct it is on his side. It outlines his fiduciary duties and all the laws contained there in are theirs to obey or change. 




> We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. - See more at: http://constitution.findlaw.com/prea....O00WkSXk.dpuf


Formalities




> Generally, a trust requires three certainties, as determined in Knight v Knight:
> 1.Intention. There must be a clear intention to create a trust (Re Adams and the Kensington Vestry)
> 2.Subject Matter. The property subject to the trust must be clearly identified (Palmer v Simmonds). One may not, for example state, settle "the majority of my estate", as the precise extent cannot be ascertained. Trust property may be any form of specific property, be it real or personal, tangible or intangible. It is often, for example, real estate, shares or cash.
> 3.Objects. The beneficiaries of the trust must be clearly identified, or at least be ascertainable (Re Hain's Settlement). In the case of discretionary trusts, where the trustees have power to decide who the beneficiaries will be, the settlor must have described a clear class of beneficiaries (McPhail v Doulton). Beneficiaries may include people not born at the date of the trust (for example, "my future grandchildren"). Alternatively, the object of a trust could be a charitable purpose rather than specific beneficiaries.


http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tm...Trust_law.html



> In the United States, the settlor is also called the trustor, grantor, donor or creator. In some other jurisdictions, the settlor may also be known as the founder.



So the good news is we are actually free and only bound to obey legislation passed by congress through *fraud and conditioning*. 
The bad news is they can do what they want to the constitution because its theirs.

I hate to be the guy to bust the patriotic bubble, but that's what that thing is about and I wish to at least dispense with the lies that it protects us or is worth defending ,the only thing worth protecting is your fellow human being's lives.
Your natural rights trump legal fiction from a private law society every time.

All the statutory construction of definitions for my state is aimed at persons which are corporations, which is legal fiction made upon registration of births which is a event and not a human being.Not once is human being mentioned.  Its also through your *presumed use* of their internal re-venue (FRN's) see title 12 sec. 411, those FRNs are for agents. 

Now think of the states as corporate persons, when the constitution was written it said "We The People" .Well the People or corporate persons back then are The States. They and the federal government are corporations. Notice the capitalization of People, it is the almost the same difference as Polish and polish. Polish is a class of People. polish is a verb. 

Padelford, Fay & Co vs. The Mayor and Alderman of the City of Savannah




> 55
> 
> But, indeed, no private person has a right to complain, by suit in Court , on the ground of a breach of the Constitution. The Constitution, it is true, is a compact, but he is not a party to it. *The States are the parties to it*. And they may complain. If they do, they are entitled to redress. Or they may waive the right to complain.


https://malegislature.gov/Laws/Gener...pter4/Section7



> Twenty-third, "Person'' or "whoever'' shall include corporations, societies, associations and partnerships.


28 U.S. Code § 3002 - Definitions



> (15) “United States” means—  
>  (A) a Federal corporation;  
> 
>  (B) an agency, department, commission, board, or other entity of the United States; or  
> 
>  (C) an instrumentality of the United States.


Lets test out the second amendment and see if it makes sense now.




> A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a *free State*, the right of* the people* to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


Yeah I am not a signatory nor a set of imaginary lines or corporate entity nor have a oath to it and I am certainly not their posterity. But my natural rights to defend myself trump it. That is why they take our weapons and that is why they get more. Its for their security not ours. 

So the choice is are you a human being or a corporate fiction. I would think corporations don't have blood in their veins. 
We have the right of free association and self determination, we don't automatically fall into their jurisdiction because they have drawn lines on a map.  

The problem is they are sociopaths and don't much care what we want.

----------


## Elias Graves

According to the left, the founding fathers were terrorists. I'm in good company.

----------


## Carlybee



----------


## pcosmar

> We have seen the ENEMY and he is us!!!:


That ain't us.

And I remember kicking the $#@! out of my Infantry squad leader. (He deserved it,, and asked for it)

----------


## HOLLYWOOD

It's all rigged, the TOP BLM officials were quietly installed by the REID-Obama administration, Let's not forget the other corrupt investigation that was squashed by DOJ Holder: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-rei/?page=all*
EXCLUSIVE: FBI blocked in corruption probe involving Sens. Reid, Lee*
Agents quietly working with Utah prosecutors to make case in DOJ absence

*ZeroHedge: FBI Blocked In Harry Reid Corruption Probe*




> Head of BLM was his top adviser for 8 years.  He is a Nevada guy.  
> 
> How convenient to have 'your guy' in charge of what appears to be a personal para-military force called...the BLM.





> *Aug 2012:  U.S. Senator Reid, son combine for China firm's desert plant*
> 
> 
> U.S.  Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) pauses during his news  conference on the payroll tax cut extension on Capitol Hill in  Washington in this December 23, 2011 file photo. 
> 
> Hopes fade for new U.S. cybersecurity law in 2012 
> 
> Sheldon Adelson and the fine art of libel litigation 
>       (Reuters) - U.S. Senator Harry Reid recognized nine years ago that  connections between his official duties and the lobbying activities of  his relatives could lead to ethical questions.
> ...





> *Sen. Harry Reid Behind BLM Land Grab of Bundy Ranch…*
> Posted  by Joe For America on Apr 11, 2014 in 2nd Amendment, 4th Amendment, Agenda 21, Agriculture, Animal Rights, Culture, Email, Environment, First Amendment, Grassroots, Politics, Regulation
> 
> 
> 
> The *Bureau of Land Management, whose Director was Sen. Harry Reid’s (D-Nev.) former senior adviser*,  has purged documents from its web site stating that the agency wants  Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy’s cattle off of the land his family has  worked for over 140 years in order to make way for solar panel power  stations.
> 
> Corrupt Democratic Sen. Harry Reid (D-Nev.) working with the Chinese gov’t to take land from hard-working Americans.
> 
> ...

----------


## FloralScent

> We have seen the ENEMY and he is us!!!:
> 
> 
> 
> *Please, PLEASE do this. First off the predator from orbiting at 33k  feet probibly is watching that teatard spank it on hairs duty. And when  you do and the bullets start flying all you will here between you  sobbing for mommy will be the immediate about face by you cohorts and  conservotard media as you are labors domestic terrorists just like in  Waco, and OKC.
> 
> Besides, between your load out plan and ROE you will be dead within an hour or so. Treasonous bastards.*
> 
> *Sgt. Jeffery Humphrey
> ...


Good god!  He has the grammar skills of a border-line retard.

----------


## HOLLYWOOD

More on the inner circle of politics... 

Kornze doesn't have an education, profession, or experience in; geology, exploration, rancher, farmer, or science... Kornze has a degree in Politics and Journalism. Then went to London for International Relations while working for Harry Reid since the age of 22. I'll call 110% BULL$#@! again on the graft and corruption with these government politicians aka political insiders. AND... of course the insiders punks like Kornze that are "groomed" for political positions through influence/racketeering/corruption... 




> *Obama picks Nevadan Neil Kornze as next BLM head* Jodi Peterson | Nov 11, 2013 
> 
> A native Nevadan is expected to become the next overseer of much of the West’s public lands. Neil Kornze  is President Obama’s nominee to head the Bureau of Land Management,  which manages 245 million acres, mostly in Western states. Kornze joined  the agency in 2011, and has been its principal deputy director since  March. He replaced acting director Mike Pool, who stepped in after Bob  Abbey retired in May 2012 (see our interview with Abbey).
> 
> *At 34, Kornze would be one of the youngest agency heads ever*, but he  has a pretty impressive resumé. Raised in Elko, he's the son of a  geologist who discovered major gold deposits  near the town (now an open pit mine operated by mining giant Barrick).  He graduated from Washington’s Whitman College with a degree in politics  (seems he’s got some chops as a journalist too – he and another student  shared a prize for Best Feature Story in the college newspaper). He  earned a master’s in International Relations at the London School of  Economics and Political Science, *then went to work for Senate Majority  Leader Harry Reid.*
> 
> Neil Kornze has been nominated to head the Bureau of Land Management. 
> 
> *As a policy adviser with Reid, from 2003 to 2011*, Kornze worked on  public lands, water, renewable energy, wildlife and mining. Reid is  notoriously friendly to the mining industry (see our story “Nevada’s Golden Child”), but Kornze doesn’t appear to have been a mining booster (industry interests complained that he “fought the mining industry’s opposition of the Pine Grove-Esmeralda Wilderness efforts”). He helped put together the 2009 public lands omnibus bill. The bill  designated 2 million acres of wilderness, codified the National Landscape Conservation System, and added 1,000 river-miles to the Wild and Scenic river system, among other things. He also helped reauthorize the Secure Rural Schools program, which provides funding to rural counties that formerly relied on income from timber sales, and the Payment-in-Lieu-of-Taxes program, which compensates states with a lot of federal land for loss of property tax revenue from that land.
> ...

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> We have seen the ENEMY and he is us!!!:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Please, PLEASE do this. First off the predator from orbiting at 33k feet probibly is watching that teatard spank it on hairs duty. And when you do and the bullets start flying all you will here between you sobbing for mommy will be the immediate about face by you cohorts and conservotard media as you are labors domestic terrorists just like in Waco, and OKC.
> 
> Besides, between your load out plan and ROE you will be dead within an hour or so. Treasonous bastards.
> ...


The most ironic bit about this is that to a man, all of the armed militia were better armed, carried more ammunition, and were probably better trained (if less experienced) than their want-fully connected boogieman counterparts in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Not that it would have gone well for them, of course.  People simply do not understand (yet) the kind of hellfire that officialdom can lay down.  

One of the reasons I am happy about the events so far, is that I want to un-twist this issue without violence.  My worst fear is that violence comes to a head, that everything becomes inflamed and stupid governments run around pouring gasoline onto it.  We do not need nor want a second American civil war, and federal stupidity could actually create one right now.  Which is why their backing off was a good sign, followup to that even remaining to be seen.

And imagine, none of this conflict would have ever even been possible if the federal government simply remained within the boundaries set by the Framers in the US Constitution.  We are only here today because Washington is already derelict in it's duty to obey the Constitution.

----------


## AuH20

Long thread at SOCNET:

http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?t=119881

Interesting comment:




> *Maybe it's because I'm out of the Fed's pocket now,* or I'm getting old and cranky, but I have ZERO trust in the US Government or any of it's numerous cumbersome agencies and bureaus.
> IMO, they don't work for us anymore.

----------


## AuH20

Spread this far and wide on social media!!!:

----------


## tod evans

This goes here;

----------


## jclay2

> More on the inner circle of politics... Kornze doesn't have an education or profession in geology, exploration, or science... he has a degree in Politics and Journalism. Then went to London for International Relations. I'll call 110% BULL$#@! again on the graft and corruption with these government politicians aka political insiders. AND... of course the insiders "groomed" for political positions...


+ rep. How anyone can think the government is competent or working for our best interests is just beyond me. This guy has spent the last 10 years "working" with special interests to eliminate competition and further eat the tax base. He has added nothing of productive value to the world and has only worked as a parasite. Seriously, this fool's idea of working is shutting down ranchers in lieu of a tortoise reservation. If this is all you need to run an organization that has a 10's of billions of dollars of influence, you might as well make me the CEO of a Fortune 500. I mean I have 3 years of experience and am 23 years old, whats could go wrong?

----------


## austin944

> If that BLM agent wants us to change the courts, but unfortunately I don't have billions of dollars lying around. It's such a copout. Secondly, Article 1 Sec 8 Clause 17 states that Cliven Bundy is in the right. 
> 
> http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/found...s/a1_8_17.html


Here is where the Federal government derives its authority to administer the land which it owns:

U.S. Const. art. IV, § 3, cl. 2
"The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State."

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Here is where the Federal government derives its authority to administer the land which it owns:
> 
> U.S. Const. art. IV, § 3, cl. 2
> "The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State."


From where does the federal government derive the authority to administer the land that the State of Arizona owns?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> The feds didn't back down because of fear of getting shot, they backed down because a bloodbath in the desert over a few cows eating grass would have turned horrible bad for them and could have seen congressional action to curtail  the feds power over land management. *That* _is what they fear_.


If nobody had showed up and stuck guns in the face of their oppressors, then what bloodbath?

----------


## tommyrp12

Historic! Feds Forced to Surrender to American Citizens 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD61YFxUga4

----------


## Anti Federalist

> We have seen the ENEMY and he is us!!!:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				Please, PLEASE do this. First off the predator from orbiting at 33k feet probibly is watching that teatard spank it on hairs duty. And when you do and the bullets start flying all you will here between you sobbing for mommy will be the immediate about face by you cohorts and conservotard media as you are labors domestic terrorists just like in Waco, and OKC.
> 
> Besides, between your load out plan and ROE you will be dead within an hour or so. Treasonous bastards.
> ...


Based on that, I thought grammar, spelling and syntax were the enemies.

----------


## Red Green

> Good god!  He has the grammar skills of a border-line retard.


He's been south of that border for some time now.....

----------


## austin944

> From where does the federal government derive the authority to administer the land that the State of Arizona owns?


US v. Gardner, 107 F. 3d 1314 - Court of Appeals, 9th Circuit 1997
``The United States and Mexico signed the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo in 1848. In that treaty, Mexico ceded land that includes the present-day state of Nevada to the United States. 9 Stat. 922 (1848); see also Sparrow v. Strong, 70 U.S. (3 Wall.) 97, 104, 18 L.Ed. 49 (1865) ("The Territory, of which Nevada is a part, was acquired by Treaty."). The language of the Treaty itself refers to the land ceded by Mexico to the United States as "territories previously belonging to Mexico, and which remain for the future within the limits of the United States." 9 Stat. 922, 929 (1848). Courts in the United States have uniformly found that title to the land first passed to the United States through the Treaty.''

----------


## AuH20

The anger in this diary feeds my very soul. These people really think that they are part of the oligarchy known as the federal government!!! ROFL It's frightening and amusing at the same time!!

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/0...fare-Dead-Beat




> The difference maker in this situation was (36+ / 0-)
> 
> very simply the threat of armed vigilantism. *When folks realize you don't have to pay taxes if you're white and have a big enough posse of armed dead-enders on call, parts of the country may soon start looking like eastern Ukraine.*


 


> * [new]  If there was ever a time (21+ / 0-)
> 
> *I wanted my government to come down hard on someone, it is this SOB and the whole cast of outlaws gunning for a confrontation.
> 
> They (govt.) better not capitulate. I don't care how they do it, IRS bank leins, his freaking cattle, the Army, whatever, but they better not back down, otherwise this is only going to get worse. Worse in the sense that these $#@!s with guns will show up each and every time something doesn't suit them.
> 
> Must be nice to be able to get your own militia to confront the government when you don't get your way.*
> 
> Most excellent rant Vyan. Perfect in every sense.





> Circle the U.S. Federal wagons (so to speak) (0+ / 0-)
> 
> and draw it tight. Shoot anyone who steps outside the boundaries (and it is possible to shoot not to kill) and send them all to Gitmo (where traitors reside). No lawyers, no rights, no nothing, do not pass Go, end up in Gitmo.
> 
> And throw away any and all keys that hold these guys in!





> They Must Be So Disappointed...... (13+ / 0-)
> 
> *Not a single shot was fired.  They were itching for a rain of bullets.  Instead Bundy's kid got himself tasered when he tried to kick a dog.  
> 
> What kind of hero kicks a dog? *





> It just makes me so F'ng angry, I could spit. This (12+ / 0-)
> *
> F'ng TRAITOR, who threatens federal officers with violence while stealing the resources of our land for his personal profit, is threatening the whole country, IMHO.  No rule of law for me, says this traitor.  
> 
> He has to PAY for this.  Period.  Jail time.  Garnishment of bank accounts.  Whatever.  Now that his personal militia has cheered their victory and gone home, they, too should have to PAY for their crimes of flouting the law and gathering together to threaten physical violence/insurrection against our country.  $#@! them!*
> 
> Oh, and irony of irony, certainly Bundy's ancestors claimed that acreage in a GOVERNMENT give-away of 140 acres in the 1860's to develop the area.  $#@!ing freeloaders, all.





> this is very disturbing (0+ / 0-)
> 
> A rightwing rable can get together and defy the federal government, and get away with it!   This will only embolden the crazies.   On this I fault President Obama.
> 
> Obama is not stupid, he knows that his election brought out every rightwing extremist, neoNazi, fascist, white supremecist, gaybashing, $#@! out from under their rocks.   These people are armed, cocky, and foaming at the mouth their hatred for some very vulnerable people in our country.
> 
> And what does Obama allow the Feds to do? BACK OFF!
> Why wasnt this done with Occupy Wall Street?  And it isnt even comparable because OWS was peaceful, not brandishing weapons and working for a more noble goal than their "freedom" to sponge off the federal lands for free.
> 
> ...

----------


## pcosmar

> The anger in this diary feeds my very soul. These people really think that they are part of the oligarchy known as the federal government!!! ROFL It's frightening and amusing at the same time!!


That $#@! just convinces me that this country needs a good cleansing.

----------


## Pericles

> Never made the claim this was a game, Klamath.  And I doubt the men who had their weapons confiscated believed it was a game either.  They just chose not to open fire.  I don't think that necessarily makes them cowards.  That is MY point.


If you end up losing your weapons, you either have a porly thought out or badly executed plan. In stead of contributing to whatever you were trying to achieve, you have contributed to your opponent's propaganda efforts.

One of the notions articulated in the 4GW theory is that is is not military capability that determines the outcome, but the convergence of popular opinion, the will to use appropriate levels of force to neutralize opponents, and skillful use of propaganda that result in victory. The objective is the will of you opponent to continue conflict.

The US had and has the capability to bring overwhelming force to bear, but takes nukes off the table, and imposes other rules on itself in an effort to play to public opinion. All of the vets here are very aware of the efforts made toward force protection. The US military is unwilling to take combat losses, and will exert any effort to avoid taking combat deaths. The trend is even more pronounced on the civilian end. The idea of getting shot puts a panic in LE

The Taliban know this, and are willing to take any number of losses in order to kill opponents. The propaganda victory for the US militia movement is that just the possibility of having their people injured or killed was enough to make the BLM back down. In summary a demonstrated ability to impose a cost an opponent was unwilling to pay.

There are lessons to be learned here. I suggest a key lesson is time to bloodshed. Without bloodshed, and time to communicate and travel, an armed citizenry dominated. The BLM could not complete the operation before there was time for the citizenry to communicate and act. Any future fed operation will attempt to use speed and overwhelming numbers for the "shock and awe" effect. Opposing that requires the ability to either get more time, or impose an unacceptable sacrifice.

----------


## klamath

> The anger in this diary feeds my very soul. These people really think that they are part of the oligarchy known as the federal government!!! ROFL It's frightening and amusing at the same time!!
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/0...fare-Dead-Beat


I think this demonstrates that the progressive democrats are the most willing to use lethal force and will slaughter anyone even for some dried up grass in the middle of the desert NOBODY else is using. The history of their presidents prove it. 
They really think that welfare line is a really powerful line. Talk about hate.

----------


## Carlybee

Dems are always complaining about the influence of the Koch Brothers..I submit the Daily Kos and it's ilk are the worst side of the influence coin.

----------


## Carson

> The anger in this diary feeds my very soul. These people really think that they are part of the oligarchy known as the federal government!!! ROFL It's frightening and amusing at the same time!!
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/0...fare-Dead-Beat


Then why repeat it? 

Let them sell their own opinions... over there where we don't have to stomach it.


But go ahead and post what ever you want. I was just saying.

----------


## Dr.3D

> The anger in this diary feeds my very soul. These people really think that they are part of the oligarchy known as the federal government!!! ROFL It's frightening and amusing at the same time!!
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/0...fare-Dead-Beat


Those folks sound like some kind of animals who are afraid if something happens to their keeper they might stop being fed and taken care of.

----------


## James Otis, Jr.

Has Ron Paul commented on the standoff?

----------


## Danke

> I think this demonstrates that the progressive democrats are the most willing to use lethal force and will slaughter anyone even for some dried up grass in the middle of the desert NOBODY else is using. The history of their presidents prove it. 
> They really think that welfare line is a really powerful line. Talk about hate.


Sadly, I think you are correct.

----------


## gwax23

> Has Ron Paul commented on the standoff?


I have the same question. And what about Rand?

----------


## Danke

Lest one forget.  There are many in the arm forces and police departments that don't agree with the Federal Government's action.

Many of those good ol' boys come from farms and ranches.  I'm related to two of them.  And served with many others.

That plus others that are fed up at this point for a myriad reasons, this $#@! won't stand.

Even if Bundy ultimately loses, the force only gets stronger.

I'm a single white male witnessing his parents, and other elders that are relatives, live in a deteriorated state.  Some not remembering one moment to the next. 

Do you think I am alone in my thoughts about the state of America?   Do you think I relish the day I'm in a nursing home not knowing where I am at?

Molon labe.  Molon labe.

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

Looks like I'm late to the forum, but have been following the story and read all the threads.  Seems most everything has been said, but I'll say--or repeat--that these people need our thanks as much as possible.  That's the Bundys, the militias, protesters, people on the scene, donors, and everybody who contributed in any way they could.

We all know how the military has their Thank a Soldier Campaign down to science and an art.  We need to do the same.  We all know how a "thank you" in our daily lives makes such a huge difference.  It might seem like small words, but it's very, very powerful.  If people here are commenting on any internet news story, Youtube video, etc., then I suggest first using your energy for a "thank you" before debating anyone who opposes you.  You'll get your own surge of energy and provide some energy to someone else.

This is also a good victory and a very, very good lesson.  It's big not only in the context of a very different outcome, but it shows the importance of armed defense.  There is no way this would have been accomplished without arms.  This is the ONLY thing these people understand.  It's force or nothing.

Thank you Bundys and to everyone else involved!!!!!!!!!

----------


## fr33

Cliven Bundy has given us a template that works. Raise enough hell about injustice and attract enough people to do something about it.




> Lest one forget.  There are many in the arm forces and police departments that don't agree with the Federal Government's action.
> 
> Many of those good ol' boys come from farms and ranches.  I'm related to two of them.  And served with many others.
> 
> That plus others that are fed up at this point for a myriad reasons, this $#@! won't stand.
> 
> Even if Bundy ultimately loses, the force only gets stronger.
> 
> I'm a single white male witnessing his parents, and other elders that are relatives, live in a deteriorated state.  Some not remembering one moment to the next. 
> ...


Oh yeah. I agree. I know plenty of good ol' boys that will fall for some egregious $#@! against foreigners but when they see something that they can identify with, the knives come out. This Bundy incident is a bonding opportunity for conservatives and libertarians.

----------


## AuH20

Fedbook is blocking some video links of the incident?

----------


## Tod

> Fedbook is blocking some video links of the incident?


Dunno about that but I sure have been having issues with it for the past several days, where it just won't load....."connecting" indefinitely.  Only a couple of short windows where I've been able to get on lately.  Everything else I visit works fine, just not FB.

----------


## tod evans

Heads up!  





*Feds to pursue effort to end dispute with rancher*

http://www.weirtondailytimes.com/pag...sap=1&nav=5015

A day after blinking in a showdown on the range, federal land managers pledged to pursue efforts to resolve a conflict with a southern Nevada rancher who has refused to pay grazing fees for 20 years.

Bureau of Land Management spokesman Craig Leff said the agency would continue to try to resolve the matter involving rancher Cliven Bundy "administratively and judicially." Bundy owes more than $1 million in grazing fees, according to the bureau.

"The door isn't closed. We'll figure out how to move forward with this," he said Sunday. He declined to comment on possible options.

Bundy did not respond to requests for comment.

The fight between Bundy and the Bureau of Land Management widened into a debate about states' rights and federal land-use policy. Bundy does not recognize federal authority on land he insists belongs to Nevada.

On Saturday, the bureau released about 400 head of cattle it had seized from Bundy back to him only hours after announcing a premature halt to the roundup due to safety concerns. The operation, expected to take up to a month, ended after only a week.

The cattle were freed after hundreds of states' rights protesters, some of them armed militia members, showed up at corrals outside Mesquite to demand the animals' release.

*Las Vegas Police Lt. Dan Zehnder told The Associated Press that Clark County Sheriff Doug Gillespie was able to negotiate a resolution after talking with Bundy.

But Leff stressed that the bureau did not take part in the negotiations.

"The BLM and National Park Service did not cut any deal and negotiate anything," he said. "There was no deal we made."*

The several hundred cows gathered during the roundup were short of the BLM's goal of 900 cows that it says have been trespassing on U.S. land without required grazing permits for over 20 years.

The showdown over Bundy's cattle was the latest chapter in the Sagebrush Rebellion, which was launched by Nevada lawmakers in the 1970s in an attempt to turn control of federal land to the states.

Environmentalists accused the bureau of capitulating to threats of violence from armed Bundy supporters and urged them to pursue action against the rancher.

"The BLM has a sacred duty to manage our public lands in the public interest, to treat all users equally and fairly," said Rob Mrowka, senior scientist with the Center for Biological Diversity. "Instead it is allowing a freeloading rancher and armed thugs to seize hundreds of thousands of acres of the people's land as their own fiefdom."

"The BLM is setting a dangerous precedent in announcing that it will pick and choose who has to follow federal laws and who it will reward for violating them," he added.

Leff declined to comment, reiterating that the bureau's top concern was the safety of its employees and the public.

In April 2012, the Center for Biological Diversity filed a notice of intent to sue the bureau for canceling a planned roundup of Bundy's cattle at the last minute.

The dispute that ultimately triggered last week's roundup dates to 1993, when the bureau cited concern for the federally protected desert tortoise in the region.

The bureau was implementing two federal court orders issued last year to remove Bundy's cattle after making repeated efforts to resolve the matter outside court.



[edit]

A snip from Infowars that repeats the same thing;




> “The door isn’t closed. We’ll figure out how to move forward with this,” BLM spokesman Craig Leff told the Associated Press, adding, “The BLM and National Park Service did not cut any deal and negotiate anything, there was no deal we made.”
> This completely contradicts reports on Saturday which stated that, “A deal has been reached between the Bundy family and the Bureau of Land Management.”


http://www.infowars.com/blm-flip-flo...against-bundy/

----------


## FloralScent

> Those folks sound like some kind of animals who are afraid if something happens to their keeper they might stop being fed and taken care of.


The vast majority are most likely public employees or some other form of parasite.

----------


## Todd

> This goes here;


Where's Mellencamp in this issue?

----------


## phill4paul

> Where's Mellencamp in this issue?


  Don't know about Mellencamp. Did run across a C. Daniels tweet....

Charlie Daniels        ✔ @CharlieDaniels
Follow
Is the Bundy Ranch situation the first test of military against citizens ?
BIG GOVERNMENT IS DANGEROUS!!!!!
7:32 PM - 11 Apr 2014

----------


## James Otis, Jr.

I seem to remember the BLM issued a statement citing armed protestors as the reason they ended the standoff.  But, I can't find it now. Can someone point me to that statement?  Thanks.

----------


## ClydeCoulter

> Heads up!  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Feds to pursue effort to end dispute with rancher*
> 
> http://www.weirtondailytimes.com/pag...sap=1&nav=5015
> ...


*
What was it, just recently, that Ron Paul said about them using "envy" to push through policy?*

----------


## AuH20

Armed thugs? Who were the Armed Thugs who shot the kid in Red Rock for crossing into the sacred 'federal' lands?

----------


## pcosmar

> I seem to remember the BLM issued a statement citing armed protestors as the reason they ended the standoff.  But, I can't find it now. Can someone point me to that statement?  Thanks.


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...Nevada-rancher

----------


## tod evans

> Where's Mellencamp in this issue?


Is he even still breathing?

I don't keep up....

----------


## klamath

> Sadly, I think you are correct.


 I was just reading comments on a global warming article. progressive democrats stating that it is time to round up "climate deniers" as they are dangerous to our children and grandchildren....

----------


## Carlybee

> I was just reading comments on a global warming article. progressive democrats stating that it is time to round up "climate deniers" as they are dangerous to our children and grandchildren....


Some of the most violence promoting comments I have seen are coming from progressives and liberals. We are living in 2 countries occupied by those who respect the Constitution and those who would shred it. I have never in my life seen a group of governmental sycophants like Democrats...as long as they are the ones in power. Their weapon of choice would be to use the military to do all this rounding up. In other words they don't want you to have guns but are perfectly willing to have the govt point one at your head. These people are dangerous to life and liberty and it's about time they are labeled as such.

----------


## Lucille

^ It's still not enough to satiate the fedgov's greed:

Obama Administration Set to Seize Millions of Acres in the West
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...es-in-the-West

Strike the Root linked to an old article today on that wrt the Bundy Ranch situation.  

This also:
Lawmakers, Utah sheriffs want to rein in renegade BLM, Forest Service officers
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...rs.html?pg=all

----------


## DP714

Reading the posts from Liberal websites (including Hannity's site forums...), it seems more clear than ever that Amerika is doomed. I've read some of the vilest, hateful, and bloodthirsty opinions being expressed regarding Bundy vs BLM on these sites than I have ever read before, and mind you I have been following these things since I woke up in around 2007-8. All the posts during the various political events since then, and even the understandably hateful posts about "terrorists" after 9/11, seem so abundantly civil and respectful in comparison to those this past week about the Bundy's, that it is hard to imagine that real, warm blooded, humans were the ones typing them on their computers. It is clear that the left is as emboldened as they've ever been, and it is them, those who favor federal tyranny, who are most welcoming of aggression and bloodshed against peaceful, non-violent, and freedom-loving individuals. If they had it their way, we would literally be rounded up and killed so they could establish their Orwellian socialist utopia. They literally said that! It's what they are calling for!

Can someone please tell me if these views are the popular ones indicative of the general population's consensus? I am genuinely curious, because though it is only online that I have seen them expressed, I wouldn't know if they reflect reality due to the possibility that I might be living in somewhat of an echo chamber, being that I am now surrounded by like-minded folks. If this is true, then it seems that the battle to restore the republic was doomed before it started. I'm sorry to be a buzz-killington, as I was genuinely impressed by what the Bundy's and their supporters accomplished this past week, but after reading those posts, I am left with a disturbing, uneasy feeling in my stomach. The most I can see being accomplished at this point, even with a logistically organized and competent armed resistance, is that MAYBE a few free states could be secured, if we could get even one...America, as a whole, will never be the combination of several sovereign states, loosely bound by a limited central government, ever again. Let's see what happens. God bless you all for staying strong and pressing on, despite all of this. Y'all are wonderful human beings.

----------


## AuH20

> Reading the posts from Liberal websites (including Hannity's site forums...), it seems more clear than ever that Amerika is doomed. I've read some of the vilest, hateful, and bloodthirsty opinions being expressed regarding Bundy vs BLM on these sites than I have ever read before, and mind you I have been following these things since I woke up in around 2007-8. All the posts during the various political events since then, and even the understandably hateful posts about "terrorists" after 9/11, seem so abundantly civil and respectful in comparison to those this past week about the Bundy's, that it is hard to imagine that real, warm blooded, humans were the ones typing them on their computers. It is clear that the left is as emboldened as they've ever been, and it is them, those who favor federal tyranny, who are most welcoming of aggression and bloodshed against peaceful, non-violent, and freedom-loving individuals. If they had it their way, we would literally be rounded up and killed so they could establish their Orwellian socialist utopia. They literally said that! It's what they are calling for!
> 
> Can someone please tell me if these views are the popular ones indicative of the general population's consensus? I am genuinely curious, because though it is only online that I have seen them expressed, I wouldn't know if they reflect reality due to the possibility that I might be living in somewhat of an echo chamber, being that I am now surrounded by like-minded folks. If this is true, then it seems that the battle to restore the republic was doomed before it started. I'm sorry to be a buzz-killington, as I was genuinely impressed by what the Bundy's and their supporters accomplished this past week, but after reading those posts, I am left with a disturbing, uneasy feeling in my stomach. The most I can see being accomplished at this point, even with a logistically organized and competent armed resistance, is that MAYBE a few free states could be secured, if we could get even one...America, as a whole, will never be the combination of several sovereign states, loosely bound by a limited central government, ever again. Let's see what happens. God bless you all for staying strong and pressing on, despite all of this. Ya'll are wonderful human beings.


Logic no longer rules the day. The statists truly believe that if we were suddenly wiped from the planet, their utopian dreams would somehow bear fruit, despite all the evidence to the contrary thus far. They have been ruling with an iron fist for a 100 years and suddenly the fledgling minority is the main problem? Really?

----------


## Thor

> Some of the most violence promoting comments I have seen are coming from progressives and liberals. We are living in 2 countries occupied by those who respect the Constitution and those who would shred it. I have never in my life seen a group of governmental sycophants like Democrats...as long as they are the ones in power. Their weapon of choice would be to use the military to do all this rounding up. In other words they don't want you to have guns but are perfectly willing to have the govt point one at your head. These people are dangerous to life and liberty and it's about time they are labeled as such.


Ding Ding Ding...  we have a winner!

----------


## HOLLYWOOD

Here's the latest from Big Government and their zombie socialists, look at government's inflationary "FEES" on ranchers and of course Ronald Reagan's E.O. 12548 : http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archive...986/21486b.htm
&
*Forage Value Index, Beef Cattle Price Index, & Prices Paid Index:* http://www.nass.usda.gov/Statistics_...l/pdf/pg14.pdf

Grazing Fees - pg14.pdf 




> *Executive Order 12548 -- Grazing Fees  February 14, 1986
> *
> 
>  By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and laws  of the United States of America, and in order to provide for  establishment of appropriate fees for the grazing of domestic livestock  on public rangelands, it is ordered as follows:
>   Section 1. Determination of Fees. The Secretaries of Agriculture and the  Interior are directed to exercise their authority, to the extent  permitted by law under the various statutes they administer, to  establish fees for domestic livestock grazing on the public rangelands  which annually equals the $1.23 base established by the 1966 Western  Livestock Grazing Survey multiplied by the result of the Forage Value  Index (computed annually from data supplied by the Statistical Reporting  Service) added to the Combined Index (Beef Cattle Price Index minus the  Prices Paid Index) and divided by 100; provided, that the annual  increase or decrease in such fee for any given year shall be limited to  not more than plus or minus 25 percent of the previous year's fee, and  provided further, that the fee shall not be less than $1.35 per animal  unit month.
>   Sec. 2. Definitions. As used in this Order, the term:
>   (a) ``Public rangelands'' has the same meaning as in the Public Rangelands Improvement Act of 1978 (Public Law 95 - 514);
>   (b) ``Forage Value Index'' means the weighted average estimate of the  annual rental charge per head per month for pasturing cattle on private  rangelands in the 11 Western States (Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado,  New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, Nevada, Washington, Oregon, and California)  (computed by the Statistical Reporting Service from the June Enumerative  Survey) divided by $3.65 and multiplied by 100;
>   (c) ``Beef Cattle Price Index'' means the weighted average annual  selling price for beef cattle (excluding calves) in the 11 Western  States (Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, Utah,  Nevada, Washington, Oregon, and California) for November through October  (computed by the Statistical Reporting Service) divided by $22.04 per  hundred weight and multiplied by 100; and
> ...

----------


## pcosmar

> Can someone please tell me if these views are the popular ones indicative of the general population's consensus? I am genuinely curious, because though it is only online that I have seen them expressed, I wouldn't know if they reflect reality due to the possibility that I might be living in somewhat of an echo chamber, being that I am now surrounded by like-minded folks. .


Some are idiots,, Yes ignorant and stupid people do exist.
Some,, and I believe a great many,, are pushing a Government position. Either because paid to do so,, or because they are true believers in the STATE GOD.





But yes,, paid shills do exist.

----------


## newbitech

> Reading the posts from Liberal websites (including Hannity's site forums...), it seems more clear than ever that Amerika is doomed. I've read some of the vilest, hateful, and bloodthirsty opinions being expressed regarding Bundy vs BLM on these sites than I have ever read before, and mind you I have been following these things since I woke up in around 2007-8. All the posts during the various political events since then, and even the understandably hateful posts about "terrorists" after 9/11, seem so abundantly civil and respectful in comparison to those this past week about the Bundy's, that it is hard to imagine that real, warm blooded, humans were the ones typing them on their computers. It is clear that the left is as emboldened as they've ever been, and it is them, those who favor federal tyranny, who are most welcoming of aggression and bloodshed against peaceful, non-violent, and freedom-loving individuals. If they had it their way, we would literally be rounded up and killed so they could establish their Orwellian socialist utopia. They literally said that! It's what they are calling for!
> 
> Can someone please tell me if these views are the popular ones indicative of the general population's consensus? I am genuinely curious, because though it is only online that I have seen them expressed, I wouldn't know if they reflect reality due to the possibility that I might be living in somewhat of an echo chamber, being that I am now surrounded by like-minded folks. If this is true, then it seems that the battle to restore the republic was doomed before it started. I'm sorry to be a buzz-killington, as I was genuinely impressed by what the Bundy's and their supporters accomplished this past week, but after reading those posts, I am left with a disturbing, uneasy feeling in my stomach. The most I can see being accomplished at this point, even with a logistically organized and competent armed resistance, is that MAYBE a few free states could be secured, if we could get even one...America, as a whole, will never be the combination of several sovereign states, loosely bound by a limited central government, ever again. Let's see what happens. God bless you all for staying strong and pressing on, despite all of this. Ya'll are wonderful human beings.



I had a discussion with my neighbors.  Some quick background.   They have 2 children 1 is at college the other in high-school.  They have rented all of their lives.  

The man has always gone from job to job for as long as I have known them (15 years or so).  He is a peaceful man, but he clearly loves him some government.  Especially in matters of protecting the environment from large greedy corporations.  He always brings up, but who will build the roads yada yada.  

The woman has always been on disability for as long as I have know them.  She is more critical of the government except when it comes to matters of her health care.  She was actually pissed that Obama Care would cause her prescription prices to go up, whatever that entails.  

He votes Dem, she votes Rep if you can believe it.  

Anyways, I was shocked yesterday when discussing the conclusion of the Bundy stand off with them both.  He was just happy that no one was killed.  She on the other hand went into an angry tirade about how the rancher had no right to hold "our" land hostage!  He had no right to profit and enrich his family on the backs of everyone else!  She yelled this and went inside and slammed the door!  She later brought me triple chocolate brownies (no, not the good ones =) ), an apologized for her outburst.  Of course I told her to get the hell off my land, heh.  

He was a bit more reserved but still had the general sentiment that the Bundy's are rich farmers taking advantage of government handouts to make their family rich.  I was able to explain to him how the really rich people, Harry Reid and company were the ones taking advantage of the federal land, or at least attempting to, in trying force hard working Americans off the land to build Chinese Solar plants.  

His argument was that "we" need energy more than "we" need cows.  To which I gave him the facts of the matter that the Chinese company was still not able to find a buyer for their solar energy which doesn't exist yet.  

He tried to say that when people get in to government, it is natural that they will meet others and gain influence and power, so it was not surprising that Harry Reid would try to use his position as leverage.  

He did agree with me that the influence does not give anyone a right to use a Federal Military to come and force people to do their bidding.  

I also used an analogy of remote camping in a state or federal park.  If my camp site is set up somewhere and a bear comes, I might back down and let the bear do it's thing and leave.  

But if another camper comes along and decides that they are going to chop down trees around me or divert the stream I am camping next to in such a way that it will put my site in danger or otherwise disturb my peace, it is my right to stand up to that camper and tell them no.  

He, being the pacifist that he is noted that in that case the inevitable outcome would be someone would get shot.  

I agreed with him saying that if the person being aggressive towards me and my family refused to back down and committed an violent act towards me that put my campsite and family at risk of injury, I would be well within my right to use defensive force to stop the aggressor.  

He could not disagree.

----------


## Carlybee

There appears to be trolls over on the Oathkeepers FB page saying the ranch is under siege again. Oathkeepers denying. Someone out there is trying to stir up some $#@! and putting disinformation out there. Not saying it couldn't happen but it is not under immediate siege according to the admin on that page.

----------


## Lucille

Progs are contradicting themselves all over the place on this thing.  They hate big ag but the govt is destroying ranchers who free range their cattle rather than pack them into factories like sardines.  They demand Bundy pay the 1 million in fees, but the BLM has spent three times that going after them.  The tortoises are endangered, but that's ok as long as the fee is paid.  Did I miss anything?

----------


## Tod

> Progs are contradicting themselves all over the place on this thing.  They hate big ag but the govt is destroying ranchers who free range their cattle rather than pack them into factories like sardines.  They demand Bundy pay the 1 million in fees, but the BLM has spent three times that going after them.  The tortoises are endangered, but that's ok as long as the fee is paid.  Did I miss anything?



The tortoises are probably endangered because the govt has been nuking them for decades.

----------


## fisharmor

> The tortoises are probably endangered because the govt has been nuking them for decades.


A government sanctuary for these tortoises is also apparently euthanizing like 700 of them, because it couldn't find a way to operate on 1million a year.

----------


## AuH20

> Progs are contradicting themselves all over the place on this thing.  They hate big ag but the govt is destroying ranchers who free range their cattle rather than pack them into factories like sardines.  They demand Bundy pay the 1 million in fees, but the BLM has spent three times that going after them.  The tortoises are endangered, but that's ok as long as the fee is paid.  Did I miss anything?


Progs keep referring to federal lands as "their" land and keep reinforcing the concept that "they" need to be compensated for it's use. Little do they know that if they took a visit to "their" land, they wouldn't be welcomed with red carpets or bouquets of flowers. More like tazers and handcuffs.

----------


## Carlybee

> Progs keep referring federal lands as "their" land and keep reinforcing the concept that "they" need to be compensated for it's use. Little do they know that if they took a visit to "their" land, they wouldn't be welcomed with red carpets or bouquets of flowers. More like tazers and handcuffs.


Yes they seem to have forgotten how well their Occupy movement was received.

----------


## AuH20

More eywitness reports:




> I was on that I-15 bridge, glassing the Federales while a few hundred extremely brave Americans confronted them. I was sitting on a bridge railing using my binoculars when I focused on a grey Silverado just to the south of the gate ... lo and behold 5-6 BLM "sharpshooters" using their riflescopes to check the crowd. The pucker factor went up a bit when a "sharpshooter" and I met eye-to-eye ... me with binoculars, him with a rifle scope. I turned to the Idaho militia member behind me, gestured to his AR and asked "what are you zeroed at?" He lowered his binos, turned to the NHP officer beside him and asked him to contact Las Vegas Metro (who took control of the situation) and have the "sharpshooters" 'knock that $#@! off.' No sooner said than done. Kudos to the Nevada Highway Patrol and the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department for standing up for American citizens! As the BLM left (I counted 82 vehicles) they did indeed have to run a "gauntlet" of Patriots, who were, all in all, fairly quiet, most of us waving, although a few chose to be a bit more efficient and not use all of their fingers as they did (I chalked it up to a bad case of sunburn on their hands.) During the day I spent at the Ranch, I heard NO inflammatory anti-American, anti-government language ... quite the contrary in fact. A lot of patriotism and a lot of prayer. The Bundys are good, faithful, strong family, with deep roots. I was proud to stand with them.

----------


## ClydeCoulter

Seriously, Nevada?

Nevada Constitution?

http://www.leg.state.nv.us/Const/NvConst.html




> ORDINANCE
> 
>       Slavery prohibited; freedom of religious worship; disclaimer of public lands. [Effective until the date Congress consents to amendment or a legal determination is made that such consent is not necessary.]  In obedience to the requirements of an act of the Congress of the United States, approved March twenty-first, A.D. eighteen hundred and sixty-four, to enable the people of Nevada to form a constitution and state government, this convention, elected and convened in obedience to said enabling act, do ordain as follows, and this ordinance shall be irrevocable, without the consent of the United States and the people of the State of Nevada:
> 
>       First. That there shall be in this state neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, otherwise than in the punishment for crimes, whereof the party shall have been duly convicted.
> 
>       Second. That perfect toleration of religious sentiment shall be secured, and no inhabitant of said state shall ever be molested, in person or property, on account of his or her mode of religious worship.
> 
>       Third. *That the people inhabiting said territory do agree and declare, that they forever disclaim all right and title to the unappropriated public lands lying within said territory, and that the same shall be and remain at the sole and entire disposition of the United States; and that lands belonging to citizens of the United States, residing without the said state, shall never be taxed higher than the land belonging to the residents thereof; and that no taxes shall be imposed by said state on lands or property therein belonging to, or which may hereafter be purchased by, the United States, unless otherwise provided by the congress of the United States.
> ...





> Sec: 2.  Purpose of government; paramount allegiance to United States.  All political power is inherent in the people[.] Government is instituted for the protection, security and benefit of the people; and they have the right to alter or reform the same whenever the public good may require it. But the Paramount Allegiance of every citizen is due to the Federal Government in the exercise of all its Constitutional powers as the same have been or may be defined by the Supreme Court of the United States; and no power exists in the people of this or any other State of the Federal Union to dissolve their connection therewith or perform any act tending to impair[,] subvert, or resist the Supreme Authority of the government of the United States. The Constitution of the United States confers full power on the Federal Government to maintain and Perpetuate its existance [existence], and whensoever any portion of the States, or people thereof attempt to secede from the Federal Union, or forcibly resist the Execution of its laws, the Federal Government may, by warrant of the Constitution, employ armed force in compelling obedience to its Authority.

----------


## AuH20



----------


## phill4paul

> Seriously, Nevada?
> 
> Nevada Constitution?
> 
> http://www.leg.state.nv.us/Const/NvConst.html


  And they started off so well before tumbling in section 2.

  Section. 1.  *Inalienable* rights.  All men are by Nature free and equal and have certain inalienable rights among which are those of enjoying and *defending* life and liberty; *Acquiring, Possessing and Protecting property* and pursuing and obtaining safety and happiness[.]

  in·al·ien·a·ble
inˈālēənəbəl/Submit
adjective
1.
unable to be taken away from or given away by the possessor.

----------


## Lucille

h/t https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater



I did miss a few.  Progs claim they're champions of the little guy and against corporate welfare, but then cheer when small businessmen are forced off their land and out of business to benefit big business and fascist politicians who stand to make millions.

Progs are all about treating animals humanely, expect for Bundy cattle.

"My baby cows, they're under the bushes dying because you took their mothers."

----------


## PRB

> ^ It's still not enough to satiate the fedgov's greed:
> 
> Obama Administration Set to Seize Millions of Acres in the West
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...es-in-the-West
> 
> Strike the Root linked to an old article today on that wrt the Bundy Ranch situation.  
> 
> This also:
> Lawmakers, Utah sheriffs want to rein in renegade BLM, Forest Service officers
> http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...rs.html?pg=all


the graph is misleading if not utterly pointless when you stripped it of context, which is : how much land is uninhabited, and how much is privately owned. without such a comparison, it says nothing. such a graphic seems to assume federal government should never own and control any land, ignoring national parks, among other things. Not even counting that federal government may be happy to lease it out to state governments if not individuals.

----------


## phill4paul

> the graph is misleading if not utterly pointless when you stripped it of context, which is : how much land is uninhabited, and how much is privately owned. without such a comparison, it says nothing. such a graphic seems to assume federal government should never own and control any land, ignoring national parks, among other things. Not even counting that federal government may be happy to lease it out to state governments if not individuals.


  Why should a state have to lease _its_ land from the federal government? Why should individuals of a state have to lease land from the federal government and not the state?

----------


## Cap

Something interesting....here is the *Clark County Property Records* search engine, which *Bunkerville* is a part of. Go there and type in *Reid* and see what comes up. It appears that Harry Reid has been busy buying up property. If it is the same *Harry Reid*. There even is a *Reid LLC*. Worth a look anyways.

http://www.clarkcountynv.gov/Depts/a...prop/ownr.aspx



HT TommyPaine

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> the graph is misleading if not utterly pointless when you stripped it of context, which is : how much land is uninhabited, and how much is privately owned. without such a comparison, it says nothing. such a graphic seems to assume federal government should never own and control any land, ignoring national parks, among other things. Not even counting that federal government may be happy to lease it out to state governments if not individuals.


How would the land become inhabited when it is restricted by the federal government?  That's circular.  You can't say "it's not inhabited anyway" when a big part of the reason it's not inhabited is that it's owned by fedgov.  It's begging the question.  You cannot possibly know whether people want to live in certain places or not until after the federal restrictions on land use and ownership are lifted.

"Look!  There is nobody living there.  Therefore the law we've always had saying 'nobody can live there' doesn't really harm anyone..."

It's a broken argument where the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises.

----------


## Cap

> Something interesting....here is the *Clark County Property Records* search engine, which *Bunkerville* is a part of. Go there and type in *Reid* and see what comes up. It appears that Harry Reid has been busy buying up property. If it is the same *Harry Reid*. There even is a *Reid LLC*. Worth a look anyways.
> 
> http://www.clarkcountynv.gov/Depts/a...prop/ownr.aspx
> 
> 
> 
> HT TommyPaine


The old adage of follow the money trail never seemed so appropriate.

----------


## PRB

> How would the land become inhabited when it is restricted by the federal government?  That's circular.


And you're just assuming it's A causing B, not vice versa. 




> You can't say "it's not inhabited anyway" when a big part of the reason it's not inhabited is that it's owned by fedgov.  It's begging the question.  You cannot possibly know whether people want to live in certain places or not until after the federal restrictions on land use and ownership are lifted.


Actually you CAN, if you actually counted land which is neither owned by private nor owned by federal government, does that not exist at all?

Not to mention, have you bothered checking to see if any land was WANTED, but government has REFUSED to lease, sell or otherwise open up?





> "Look!  There is nobody living there.  Therefore the law we've always had saying 'nobody can live there' doesn't really harm anyone..."
> 
> It's a broken argument where the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises.


again, how about we first get the numbers together, then compare? you automatically assume, it seems, that there's nothing to compare it to and it's always the governments' fault.

----------


## PRB

> Why should a state have to lease _its_ land from the federal government? Why should individuals of a state have to lease land from the federal government and not the state?


basically the federal government should never own any land?

----------


## pcosmar

> basically the federal government should never own any land?


Basically.. yeah.

Except for Federal buildings and Military bases/Forts.

And I don't believe that States should own anything more than  the necessary land for administrative buildings either.

Open Range is just that,, open and free for any and all to use.

----------


## Lucille

> Something interesting....here is the *Clark County Property Records* search engine, which *Bunkerville* is a part of. Go there and type in *Reid* and see what comes up. It appears that Harry Reid has been busy buying up property. If it is the same *Harry Reid*. There even is a *Reid LLC*. Worth a look anyways.
> 
> http://www.clarkcountynv.gov/Depts/a...prop/ownr.aspx


Good find.  From DP:




> The principal owner of "Reid Bunkerville LLC" is Bruce Gamett.
> 
> Bruce Gamett is referenced here as an "Accountant" who can be paid to sign any document.
> http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/jared-...-vegas-nevada-...
> 
> "Bruce Gamett and Shawn King are certified public accountants who will sign any document Mr. Shafer places in front of them. Bruce Gamett and Shawn King have made a lot of money backing Mr. Shafers frauds. The trio has been involved in wire fraud, selling securities without a license, submitting false documents to courts of law, Medicare fraud and suspected embezzlement in senior trust accounts. Public officials living in Clark County have been engaged in a lifelong occupation of covering up Mr. Shafers crimes. Mr. Shafer was able to gain access to North Las Vegas officials because Patience Bristol was dating an influential member from North Las Vegas investment committee. Rumor has it Senator Harry Reid has been involved because the senator and Mr. Shafer have a history dating back to 1985. "
> 
> Bruce appears to be a "principal" of over 21 companies
> http://www.bizapedia.com/people/BRUCE-GAMETT.html


Speaking of the devil:

Sen. Reid on Cattle Battle: "It's not over"
http://www.mynews4.com/news/local/st...14I5GhESg.cspx

----------


## Lucille

> the graph is misleading if not utterly pointless when you stripped it of context, which is : how much land is uninhabited, and how much is privately owned. without such a comparison, it says nothing. such a graphic seems to assume federal government should never own and control any land, ignoring national parks, among other things. Not even counting that federal government may be happy to lease it out to state governments if not individuals.





> And you're just assuming it's A causing B, not vice versa. 
> 
> Actually you CAN, if you actually counted land which is neither owned by private nor owned by federal government, does that not exist at all?
> 
> Not to mention, have you bothered checking to see if any land was WANTED, but government has REFUSED to lease, sell or otherwise open up?
> 
> again, how about we first get the numbers together, then compare? you automatically assume, it seems, that there's nothing to compare it to and it's always the governments' fault.


Oh yay.  Another hair-splitter defending the fedgov.  Can't have enough of those around here!  

Here's one with more detail, since you got so upset about the one that put it in simple percentages:



http://modernsurvivalblog.com/retrea...land-near-you/  < Click here for maps of individual states.




> You may be interested to see a map of each individual State and where the government owned land is within each State.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> And you're just assuming it's A causing B, not vice versa.


No, actually I'm not.  I've not made any assumptions at all, I'm simply challenging yours. 




> Actually you CAN, if you actually counted land which is neither owned by private nor owned by federal government, does that not exist at all?


money is fungible, land is not.  Two parcels of land 30 foot apart can have a different value.  The lack of interest in one plot 300 miles away is not a statement of the level of interest in another plot right over there.




> Not to mention, have you bothered checking to see if any land was WANTED, but government has REFUSED to lease, sell or otherwise open up?


Well, there is this guy named Clive Bundy who has apparently become the symbol of a larger movement of abused ranchers...




> again, how about we first get the numbers together, then compare? you automatically assume, it seems, that there's nothing to compare it to and it's always the governments' fault.


No, I simply refuse to presume to know what the market will do or not, I just know that the market does best when it's free.  "Federally managed" is not free, especially when the regulators rule like petty kings on fiat, and carry with them their own extrajudicial police forces...

----------


## Carlybee

http://benswann.com/exclusive-source...tm_campaign=nl

Sorry can't paste the text on ipad

----------


## Tod

> http://benswann.com/exclusive-source...tm_campaign=nl
> 
> Sorry can't paste the text on ipad


That deserves its own thread!

----------


## klamath

What isn't well know except to people in the raw resource extraction business is The FEDs are HOSTILE. 50 years ago they started on small scale miners and mining claims. It is a slow squeeze to drive the people out always stepping up the pressure.  To the general public they sell the moves as control of those devastating the land with pictures of the worst offences or practices the occurred 100 year before.  
First they said you could not have a house on a mining claim unless you were mining the claim. Then it changed mining or not you had to file a plan of operation to keep a cabin on the claim. The it turned to you couldn't even have a cabin on the claim. Then you could only camp on the claim while you were mining. Then it moved to you could camp for only two weeks. At the same time they were doing this they were testing claims to see if you could make a profit mining the claims If not the claim was declared invalid and null and void. Of course all the restrictions they were imposing had a direct effect on the profitability of the claim. By 20 years ago thousand upon thousands of claim had been declared invalid and thousands of homes were destroyed. I can show you the foundations. All this was done while provable perjury of federal agents were getting by in federal courts. So the miners are almost all gone.

Then they started on the logging industry. Regs and fees were slowly upped and then the loggers agreed to a big compromise called RARE II where huge tracts of land were withdrawn from logging so logging could go on in the other areas.  After that happened a little bird called the spotted owl was declared endangered and All the rest of the federal land was basically removed from logging. Of course at the same time the USFS is intentionally burning hundreds of thousands of acres of forest because it is GOOD for the forest, even extended crown run fires. Now the logging industry is dead except what is done on private land.

This is now the fate of the ranchers. Remember where it was said that Bundy was the only one left in that valley? Wonder what happened to the rest? A slow squeeze to drive them all out. Bundy knows this and that is why he is reacting the way he is. It isn't about him not paying fees. He knows that is the continuing steps to drive him out by making it unprofitable. Those that try and comply and be good citizens give up what has now been made unprofitable. Bundy knows they don't want the money, they want him *GONE!* They probably spent more on rounding up his cattle than he owes. BLM-mission accomplished- high fives! 
Of course all of this has been encouraged supported and forced into court by environmental groups.

----------


## ctiger2

Exclusive: Sources Inside The BLM and Las Vegas Metro Say Feds Are Planning A Raid On Bundy Home

http://benswann.com/exclusive-source...on-bundy-home/

----------


## tod evans

I like Ben Swann too, but here's what he says;

*Exclusive: Sources Inside The BLM and Las Vegas Metro Say Feds Are Planning A Raid On Bundy Home*

http://benswann.com/exclusive-source...on-bundy-home/

As reported yesterday, hundreds of federal agents are still at the Bundy Ranch and the area continues its status as a no-fly zone. Despite major media reports that the Nevada Bureau of Land Management is retreating, the remaining activity that still surrounds the ranch illustrates a different scenario.

Not only is the BLM not actually backing off of Cliven Bundy, Sheriff Richard Mack of the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association has revealed stunning information: on Ben Swanns radio program, Mack said that he has received intelligence from multiple, credible sources inside the BLM and the Las Vegas Metro that there is no question that the federal government is planning a raid on the Bundy home and the homes of their children who live on the property.

According to Mack, the so-called retreat was nothing more than theatrics. It was a ploy to get people to back off, to get people out of the way. They werent expecting us to get this amount of people here. They were surprised by the numbers and so they wanted a way to get us out of here. This was a ploy to get us out of here and then theyre going after the Bundys.  Mack said that when he was at the Bundy ranch on Saturday there were an estimated 600 to 800 protesters present when federal agents were releasing the cattle.
If they do that kind of raid, I dont believe theres any way that could happen without bloodshed, Mack told Swann.
Mack spoke about the tactic that protesters used by putting women at the front of the line facing the federal agents to make them think carefully before opening fire.

I wouldve gone next. I wouldve been the next one to be killed. Im not afraid to die here. Im willing to die here, said Mack.
Mack said that he had been told by Bundy that the federal government is actively shutting down the ranching industry, specifically in Clark County. He also revealed that there used to be 53 ranches in Clark County. All of those ranchers have been put out of business, except for Bundy who is still trying to hold on. Every American should be outraged by it,  said Mack. The ranch has been in Bundys family since 1877.

Mack decried Nevada governor Brian Sandoval for declaring this situation unconstutional while doing nothing to stop it. He could have called in the states national guard, could have called in the sheriffs office, could have called in highway patrol, and hes done nothing except assail whats going on. Thats easy, thats cowardly.

Sheriff Mack also called out media including radio host Glenn Beck who he says is siding with the BLM on this issue.

I cant believe that there are some Americans, and some media like Glenn Beck, that are supporting the BLM in this and its absolutely disgraceful.

----------


## klamath

> Exclusive: Sources Inside The BLM and Las Vegas Metro Say Feds Are Planning A Raid On Bundy Home
> 
> http://benswann.com/exclusive-source...on-bundy-home/


As I posted in 762. They want them GONE! Now they probably want him dead. I know a lot of liberals do.

----------


## tod evans

> As I posted in 762. They want them GONE! Now they probably want him dead. I know a lot of liberals do.


Something tells me they'd better pack a lunch.....

----------


## pcosmar

> As I posted in 762. They want them GONE! Now they probably want him dead. I know a lot of liberals do.


There are a lot of men with rifles between here and there.

We shall see.

----------


## pcosmar

> Something tells me they'd better pack a lunch.....


Hope they pack something good..

----------


## tod evans

> Hope they pack something good..


I have a feeling the militia guys will be enjoying it..

----------


## klamath

> There are a lot of men with rifles between here and there.
> 
> We shall see.


Unfortunately I have seen this before. The weight of the government usually crushes all the holdouts in the end. I saw very strong willed loggers and miners fight for years. The government can bide their time. I saw the same gun confrontations with quite a few miners and the feds back off but then come again. In the end they were smothered.

----------


## pcosmar

> I have a feeling the militia guys will be enjoying it..


Can't speak for the Militia Guys.. I don't know them all.

But I would be striping anything useful from those that have no further use of it.

----------


## tod evans

> Unfortunately I have seen this before. The weight of the government usually crushes all the holdouts in the end. I saw very strong willed loggers and miners fight for years. The government can bide their time. I saw the same gun confrontations with quite a few miners and the feds back off but then come again. In the end they were smothered.


There's a different political/socio-economic climate now......

Things might be a tad different....

----------


## CPUd

> Seriously, Nevada?
> 
> Nevada Constitution?
> 
> http://www.leg.state.nv.us/Const/NvConst.html



They didn't want new landowners being taxed by the state while the federal govt was encouraging people to move there.

----------


## klamath

> There's a different political/socio-economic climate now......
> 
> Things might be a tad different....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denny,_California

----------


## pcosmar

> In the end they were smothered.


Ah yes,, your usual message.

"Give up, don't try,  you can't win against the almighty government." (paraphrased)

Go lick boots elsewhere.

----------


## Barrex

There are no protestors at Bundys ranch. If government raids it it will be over within a day. No militia or protestors will mobilize in that short time. After raid is done there will be nothing to defend and I doubt that people will start hunting BLM employees.

----------


## DamianTV

*Stephen Molyneux - Bundy is Last Rancher Standing*



Video asserts that since the BLM Land Grab, every other rancher in the area has been kicked off their land and Bundy is the last one they intend on going after.  The Harry Reid involvement is not mentioned.  Video is a bit dry.

---

*Judge Napolitano - Ranch Rebellion is Americans "Line In The Sand"*



---

Now keep in mind Harry Reid is heavily involved in this...

----------


## AuH20

Reid is a real scumbag when you consider that both him and Bundy are Mormon. Now I'm saying that you treat others differently based on sect, but this guy is going out of his way to essentially destroy a fellow Mormon.

----------


## klamath

> You have spewed the same negative crap for years here..
> 
> You advice is heard, (and largely rejected) just like your advice to vote for McCain.


 And you are a $#@!ing liar I never said to vote for McCain.
 I have related my experience I have had in this battle and you decide to pick a fight. The only crap you spew is grab you gun it solves everything!

----------


## pcosmar

> There are no protestors at Bundys ranch. If government raids it it will be over within a day. No militia or protestors will mobilize in that short time. After raid is done there will be nothing to defend and I doubt that people will start hunting BLM employees.


The militia never left.

They were there before this story broke and the protesters and media showed up.

They are still there are more are on the way there.

No one believes this is over.

----------


## Tod

I wonder where the ranch house is actually located?

----------


## pcosmar

> I wonder where the ranch house is actually located?


Here,

----------


## AuH20

If I was Harry Reid I would be on the phone pleading with the BLM not to go through with this. The economy is bad. No jobs. Saving destroyed. No sustainable future. Why put a huge bullseye on your forehead like that? And then stating that it's about the Law? Really? The same law that the chief legal authority Eric Holder scoffs at and selectively enforces? The same LAW that James Clapper broke? That inflexible construct?

----------


## Tod

> Here,



haha, very funny.

----------


## Philhelm

> Here,


Cattle, melons, and kids.  Two of those things may get cut to ribbons by gunfire, and I doubt that law enforcement will aim at melons.

----------


## mrsat_98

> Cattle, melons, and kids.  Two of those things may get cut to ribbons by gunfire, and I doubt that law enforcement will aim at melons.


Fedzilla will be back to either bankrupt them in the Kangeroo courts or more than likely show up in their unawares and bulldoze the place over the bill.

----------


## pcosmar

> Fedzilla will be back to either bankrupt them in the Kangeroo courts or more than likely show up in their unawares and bulldoze the place over the bill.


I am pretty sure the Defensive Measures being taken at this moment are not being advertized.

----------


## phill4paul

> If I was Harry Reid I would be on the phone pleading with the BLM not to go through with this. The economy is bad. No jobs. Saving destroyed. No sustainable future. Why put a huge bullseye on your forehead like that? And then stating that it's about the Law? Really? The same law that the chief legal authority Eric Holder scoffs at and selectively enforces? The same LAW that James Clapper broke? That inflexible construct?


  You're not Harry Reid. He doesn't give a $#@!. He's an "untouchable." In his own mind.

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> Unfortunately I have seen this before. The weight of the government usually crushes all the holdouts in the end. I saw very strong willed loggers and miners fight for years. The government can bide their time. I saw the same gun confrontations with quite a few miners and the feds back off but then come again. In the end they were smothered.


The difference now is that time is running out.  America is on a 50+ year decline.  The economy is slowly collapsing.  Pensions are drying up.  

I really think that what happened Saturday is a watershed event.  A small one to be sure, but now there is a chink in the armor.  Government employees basically do this for a pension.  People at the Bundy Ranch are spending their own money.  Government employees will not--can not--continue their endeavors over the coming decades when their very own financial infrastructure is falling apart.

The genie is now out of the bottle.  People now know they can mount opposition.  It is going to take a whole lot more than what they had Saturday; however, their (and our) resolve will continue to ascend, while the resolve of a financially failing government will decline.

----------


## AuH20

> The difference now is that time is running out.  America is on a 50+ year decline.  The economy is slowly collapsing.  Pensions are drying up.  
> 
> I really think that what happened Saturday is a watershed event.  A small one to be sure, but now there is a chink in the armor.  Government employees basically do this for a pension.  People at the Bundy Ranch are spending their own money.  Government employees will not--can not--continue their endeavors over the coming decades when their very own financial infrastructure is falling apart.
> 
> The genie is now out of the bottle.  People now know they can mount opposition.  It is going to take a whole lot more than what they had Saturday; however, their (and our) resolve will continue to ascend, while the resolve of a financially failing government will decline.


We have a near limitless resource of expendable bodies to throw into the fight. The government doesn't. The fed gov employees are only in it for a paycheck and pension. They want no part of a real struggle. In the long run, if they can't exterminate us early, they will lose miserably. At the higher echelons, they are keenly aware of us this fact, which explains their methodology and programs.

----------


## tod evans

There's a big difference between some loggers in the '70's in N.Cal. and some cowpokes in the desert today...

I set chokers for Boise in '75-'76 in the Siuslaw forest so I know of whom you speak....

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Ah yes,, your usual message.
> 
> "Give up, don't try,  you can't win against the almighty government." (paraphrased)
> 
> Go lick boots elsewhere.


Damn it.  That's not what he said.  He is recounting what happened in Klamath Falls.  Do you even remember it?  It was AWFUL.  Things can be learned from that and applied here and now for the better.  

NO ONE SAID TO GIVE UP.

----------


## pcosmar

> NO ONE SAID TO GIVE UP.


Yes he has. Many times,, any time anyone even mentions the proper and rightful use of the 2nd amendment.

It was the arms that backed off the BLM.. 
Not the unarmed protesters.

They tazed them. They sicked dogs on them. and would kill them without blinking.

It was the force of arms.. the rifles that surrounded them that caused them to back off and to surrender the stolen cattle.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Yes he has. Many times,, any time anyone even mentions the proper and rightful use of the 2nd amendment.


I see it nowhere in this thread.  If you do, quote it.  

He has lived through what  happened at Klamath Falls.  Instead of insulting him, maybe a better idea is to learn from it so this time it might not turn out the same way.

----------


## Tod

I'm guessing this is it here:  http://goo.gl/maps/9mtrQ

This sign out by the road shows up on google street view too.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> The difference now is that time is running out.  America is on a 50+ year decline.  The economy is slowly collapsing.  Pensions are drying up.  
> 
> I really think that what happened Saturday is a watershed event.  A small one to be sure, but now there is a chink in the armor.  Government employees basically do this for a pension.  People at the Bundy Ranch are spending their own money.  Government employees will not--can not--continue their endeavors over the coming decades when their very own financial infrastructure is falling apart.
> 
> The genie is now out of the bottle.  People now know they can mount opposition.  It is going to take a whole lot more than what they had Saturday; however, their (and our) resolve will continue to ascend, while the resolve of a financially failing government will decline.


I hope so.  But, you and I both know that if the feds use the full complement of their weaponry, they can squash these guys like little bugs.

The key, I would think, is to get the word out more so that the public realizes what is going on.  The one thing the feds can't afford is for a mass awakening.

----------


## nobody's_hero

> Yes he has. Many times,, any time anyone even mentions the proper and rightful use of the 2nd amendment.
> 
> It was the arms that backed off the BLM.. 
> Not the unarmed protesters.
> 
> They tazed them. They sicked dogs on them. and would kill them without blinking.
> 
> It was the force of arms.. the rifles that surrounded them that caused them to back off and to surrender the stolen cattle.


Absolutely.
(not my video)

----------


## pcosmar

> I hope so.  But, you and I both know that if the feds use the full complement of their weaponry, they can squash these guys like little bugs.


NO,, they can't. They can kill some,, and that will recruit dozens more for every one they kill.

I was listening to Police broadcasts. They knew they were targeted.

There were a thousand rifles there that day,, not all of them visible,  They KNEW of 200 scoped rifles,, plus more long guns in the crowd.

There were three different groups of 100  bikes inbound,, and credible intel of 3000 more militia in route.

They were massively out gunned.

and they will be back as soon as their arrogance gets the best of them.

----------


## Thor

> I'm guessing this is it here:  http://goo.gl/maps/9mtrQ
> 
> This sign out by the road shows up on google street view too.


If any of you had signed up for the alerts, you would know EXACTLY where it is...

From the emails:

Mailing Address:
Carol Bundy
7175 Gold Butte Rd
Bunkerville, NV 89007

----------


## tod evans

> I hope so.  But, you and I both know that if the feds use the full complement of their weaponry, they can squash these guys like little bugs.
> 
> The key, I would think, is to get the word out more so that the public realizes what is going on.  The one thing the feds can't afford is for a mass awakening.


With the instant communication available today and the general discord in society it's very likely that there'd be 10 men take the place of every one that fell due to fed weaponry..

The feds can boast those numbers about twice then the tide turns....

You can bet they've run all the simulations over and over but the big variable is how fed up the populace is.....

----------


## LibertyEagle

> *Ron Pauls Reaction to the Standoff in Nevada with Federal Officials*
> 
> April 14, 2014  Ive had a lot of questions asked of me about the episode out in Nevada. I was happy to hear about the federal officials backing off because I was concerned that violence might break out. In many ways, the people spoke out after determining that the federal government had overstepped itself and fortunately their presence did not result in violence. However, I worry about whether or not this is all over because you have the sort of on-again, off-again situation like that of Waco which, of course, ended in violence. Im hoping that the federal officials dont come back determined to use violence to remove this family from this house and this land.
> 
> This is a typical example of when everyone owns a piece of land and no one does all at the same time. They sort of have an agreement  a lease  where they have been raising cattle on this land for 130 years then all of sudden the rules change. This type of problem wouldnt happen in Texas because all the land is owned privately. Its makes the point that no one really knows who is in charge. It makes the point that state and private ownership would have prevented this type of problem.
> 
> Theres two things that come out of this: one, when the American people speak out, their voices can be heard and can effect what government is doing. Two, it empathizes the value of private property and ownership rather than having collective ownership by a government.
> 
> As much as Id like to see this as a victory for the people, Im afraid the government has more guns, more power and more determination to express their authoritarianism. They will be back and that means a confrontation between the people and those in our government undermining our liberties  the confrontation will continue.


http://www.ronpaulchannel.com/editor...gn=DailyUpdate

----------


## phill4paul

> http://www.ronpaulchannel.com/editor...gn=DailyUpdate


 


> Waco


  Conspiracy theorist.

----------


## phill4paul

> With the instant communication available today and the general discord in society it's very likely that there'd be 10 men take the place of every one that fell due to fed weaponry..
> 
> The feds can boast those numbers about twice then the tide turns....
> 
> You can bet they've run all the simulations over and over but the big variable is how fed up the populace is.....


  Let the Feds move west. I live on the east. If it comes........ I'm not gonna fight out there.

----------


## pcosmar

> http://www.ronpaulchannel.com/editor...gn=DailyUpdate





> They will be back and that means a confrontation between the people and those in our government undermining our liberties – the confrontation will continue.


That much seems to be understood by everyone.

When and where it ends is unknown.. and who wins we be decided after the smoke clears.

But I am not all that confidant in nor fearful of the federal forces. They have demonstrated arrogance and stupidity too many times.

They could not win one single objective in Afghanistan. (find Osama=nope)(defeat the Taliban=nope)

They set up a puppet,, but have never gotten control of the country..

Try that $#@! here,, I expect the same result. Abject failure.

----------


## pcosmar

> I see it nowhere in this thread.  If you do, quote it.  
> 
> .





> If you go there you_ better_ be ready to die on that hill. That is what the game is. It cannot be won with firepower at the bundy ranch. It will be won if the feds gun down a bunch of innocent unarmed protesters. The American will in mass turn against the feds. ANYTIME you pick up arms to fight there is a 90% chance YOU _WILL_ not survive to see the fruits of the war whatever that might be.


He has been posting this crap for years.

----------


## phill4paul

> That much seems to be understood by everyone.
> 
> When and where it ends is unknown.. and who wins we be decided after the smoke clears.
> 
> But I am not all that confidant in nor fearful of the federal forces. They have demonstrated arrogance and stupidity too many times.
> 
> They could not win one single objective in Afghanistan. (find Osama=nope)(defeat the Taliban=nope)
> 
> They set up a puppet,, but have never gotten control of the country..
> ...


  While I agree with you on most of this I'm gonna have to add to this.......




> They could not win one single objective in Afghanistan. (find Osama=nope)(defeat the Taliban=nope)


  I think the C.I.A. just accomplished a greater leverage on the drug fueled black ops fund.

----------


## Tod

> If any of you had signed up for the alerts, you would know EXACTLY where it is...
> 
> From the emails:
> 
> Mailing Address:
> Carol Bundy
> 7175 Gold Butte Rd
> Bunkerville, NV 89007


That is the address I had found, but Google knows not where that house number is.  The _neigh_boring place to the SW from my link is a wealthy horse farm - Meadowland Farm something or other -, house number visible from google street view as 3915/3925

----------


## pcosmar

> That is the address I had found, but Google knows not where that house number is.


Google won't find mine either.

Not in an urban area. I don't have a number on my house.
I have a number on my mailbox,, a quarter mile away.
and even that is relatively new.. it used to be Name at Rural Route.

----------


## Danke

"This type of problem wouldn’t happen in Texas because all the land is owned privately"  -RP

lol, no they can never raise property taxes...

----------


## klamath

> He has been posting this crap for years.


 Honestly you have been promoting violence for years. I have been fighting this exact war bundy is fighting  since I was a teenager. That is what I did in my youth, trying to keep my home, I wasn't getting high on dope living in a commune or committing armed robbery. Again $#@! you.

----------


## phill4paul

> "This type of problem wouldn’t happen in Texas because all the land is owned privately"  -RP
> 
> lol, no they can never raise property taxes...


  Ouch..........

----------


## Danke

> Honestly you have been promoting violence for years. I have been fighting this exact war bundy is fighting  since I was a teenager. That is what I did in my youth, trying to keep my home, I wasn't getting high on dope living in a commune or committing armed robbery. Again $#@! you.


I just want to say, you are my hero.

----------


## klamath

> There's a big difference between some loggers in the '70's in N.Cal. and some cowpokes in the desert today...
> 
> I set chokers for Boise in '75-'76 in the Siuslaw forest so I know of whom you speak....


Loggers weren't fighting the battle in the 70's. The loggers didn't come under fire until the late 80's and 90's. The miners were under the gun in the 70's.

----------


## phill4paul

Towards pcosmar.....




> Honestly you have been promoting violence for years.


  I haven't seen that. Nice of you to disparage Pete because he has actually exposed his life. Who are _you_ exactly?

----------


## pcosmar

> Honestly you have been promoting violence for years. I have been fighting this exact war bundy is fighting  since I was a teenager. That is what I did in my youth, trying to keep my home, I wasn't getting high on dope living in a commune or committing armed robbery. Again $#@! you.


Nope. I have been promoting Self Defense and Community Defense..
I promote the 2nd amendment,, and the bearing arms,, and the use of arms in defense of a free state.

I also believe that the best way to stop a bully is to bloody his nose.

----------


## Tod

> Google won't find mine either.
> 
> Not in an urban area. I don't have a number on my house.
> I have a number on my mailbox,, a quarter mile away.
> and even that is relatively new.. it used to be Name at Rural Route.



I like to see if I can find places (not in a stalking way, just as a puzzle challenge) on google map.  I found your place once a long time ago based on something you posted  (an aerial pic maybe?) and I have found several things I've seen in movies, commercials, or tv shows.  For example, I found the building featured in "Burn Notice" and another big building that the gal jumped out of at the end of one episode.  Also found the setting for a car commercial.  Also the setting from a Northumberland scene in a British show.

----------


## pcosmar

> I like to see if I can find places (not in a stalking way, just as a puzzle challenge) on google map.  I found your place once a long time ago based on something you posted  (an aerial pic maybe?) and I have found several things I've seen in movies, commercials, or tv shows.  For example, I found the building featured in "Burn Notice" and another big building that the gal jumped out of at the end of one episode.  Also found the setting for a car commercial.  Also the setting from a Northumberland scene in a British show.


I posted a Google Earth view once.. with Long/Lat.

You can't find it by address.

----------


## klamath

For the record you will find nowhere  me saying people shouldn't come to Bundy's defense armed or otherwise. I have pointed out bad tactics and called out ignorance to what the stakes really were and the constant underestimation of the feds.

----------


## tod evans

> Loggers weren't fighting the battle in the 70's. The loggers didn't come under fire until the late 80's and 90's. The miners were under the gun in the 70's.


My point was folks are different, I've known both..........

----------


## Tod

> For the record you will find nowhere  me saying people shouldn't come to Bundy's defense armed or otherwise. I have pointed out bad tactics and called out ignorance to what the stakes really were and the constant underestimation of the feds.


It is really a battle of public opinion.  The feds have lots of OUR money and are persecuting the Bundys for a living, while the Bundys and the rest of us have to take time and money AWAY from our lives in defense.  If enough people's opinions are swayed one way or the other, that side will win.  If only a handful support the Bundys, then it is pretty much impossible for them to win.  If there is enough support for them, they certainly can win, and they will win as much from pressure on the govt from behind to stop as from in front, facing arms.


Media is the big issue:  Bundy has to become known as a sympathetic figure and while MSM is not portraying him that way, alternative certainly is.  This may be the big test of the power of the internet to shape public opinion.

----------


## klamath

> My point was folks are different, I've known both..........


I have too. the majority fold but a few strong willed people fight til they die. It looks like the vast majority of the ranchers in the valley that Bundy is in have folded. There were loggers and miners that fought as hard. I am all for the Bundy and the people that came to his aid and I hope he can keep the fight going. He has 15 kids to pick up the reins. The other rancher in Nevada that fought taking his water all the way to the supreme court, won posthumously unfortunately.

----------


## Carson

I keep seeing the word "owned" and it doesn't feel right.

The Federal government and the State governments are entities. They can't really own anything. They can be set up to control land but the owners are the people that set up these entities.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> It is really a battle of public opinion.  The feds have lots of OUR money and are persecuting the Bundys for a living, while the Bundys and the rest of us have to take time and money AWAY from our lives in defense.  If enough people's opinions are swayed one way or the other, that side will win.  If only a handful support the Bundys, then it is pretty much impossible for them to win.  If there is enough support for them, they certainly can win, and they will win as much from pressure on the govt from behind to stop as from in front, facing arms.
> 
> 
> Media is the big issue:  Bundy has to become known as a sympathetic figure and while MSM is not portraying him that way, alternative certainly is.  This may be the big test of the power of the internet to shape public opinion.


I've been saying now that this is the point where the Internet finally and really does become the game-changer. The traditional apparatus has been side-stepped, and even for those who are not on the internet they are exposed to people who are.  Just 10 years ago the M$M would have owned public opinion all over this. and 10 years ago there were already a LOT of people on the Internet.  The fallout from Bundy Ranch demonstrates that we have reached the tipping point where the Internet is primed to change the whole game.

So in addition to a new domestic patriot act under some innocuous name, we also need to look for legislation to lock down the internet coming in the next several months.

----------


## Anti Federalist

They did this to commercial fishermen as well.

I sat directly across the table from the director of the Nazi Marine Fisheries Service when he said, "my goal is to put at least half you people out of business".




> What isn't well know except to people in the raw resource extraction business is The FEDs are HOSTILE. 50 years ago they started on small scale miners and mining claims. It is a slow squeeze to drive the people out always stepping up the pressure.  To the general public they sell the moves as control of those devastating the land with pictures of the worst offences or practices the occurred 100 year before.  
> First they said you could not have a house on a mining claim unless you were mining the claim. Then it changed mining or not you had to file a plan of operation to keep a cabin on the claim. The it turned to you couldn't even have a cabin on the claim. Then you could only camp on the claim while you were mining. Then it moved to you could camp for only two weeks. At the same time they were doing this they were testing claims to see if you could make a profit mining the claims If not the claim was declared invalid and null and void. Of course all the restrictions they were imposing had a direct effect on the profitability of the claim. By 20 years ago thousand upon thousands of claim had been declared invalid and thousands of homes were destroyed. I can show you the foundations. All this was done while provable perjury of federal agents were getting by in federal courts. So the miners are almost all gone.
> 
> Then they started on the logging industry. Regs and fees were slowly upped and then the loggers agreed to a big compromise called RARE II where huge tracts of land were withdrawn from logging so logging could go on in the other areas.  After that happened a little bird called the spotted owl was declared endangered and All the rest of the federal land was basically removed from logging. Of course at the same time the USFS is intentionally burning hundreds of thousands of acres of forest because it is GOOD for the forest, even extended crown run fires. Now the logging industry is dead except what is done on private land.
> 
> This is now the fate of the ranchers. Remember where it was said that Bundy was the only one left in that valley? Wonder what happened to the rest? A slow squeeze to drive them all out. Bundy knows this and that is why he is reacting the way he is. It isn't about him not paying fees. He knows that is the continuing steps to drive him out by making it unprofitable. Those that try and comply and be good citizens give up what has now been made unprofitable. Bundy knows they don't want the money, they want him *GONE!* They probably spent more on rounding up his cattle than he owes. BLM-mission accomplished- high fives! 
> Of course all of this has been encouraged supported and forced into court by environmental groups.

----------


## klamath

> It is really a battle of public opinion.  The feds have lots of OUR money and are persecuting the Bundys for a living, while the Bundys and the rest of us have to take time and money AWAY from our lives in defense.  If enough people's opinions are swayed one way or the other, that side will win.  If only a handful support the Bundys, then it is pretty much impossible for them to win.  If there is enough support for them, they certainly can win, and they will win as much from pressure on the govt from behind to stop as from in front, facing arms. 
> 
> 
> Media is the big issue:  Bundy has to become known as a sympathetic figure and while MSM is not portraying him that way, alternative certainly is.  This may be the big test of the power of the internet to shape public opinion.


100% right. The greatest  frustration I felt as a teenager while my family was living on a few thousand dollars a year was knowing we were paying taxes to support the army of federal attorneys trying to take us down.

----------


## Carson

*Clyde Coulter* pointed out a quote in a post of *tod evans*.

_
"Instead it is allowing a freeloading rancher and armed thugs to seize hundreds of thousands of acres of the people's land as their own fiefdom."_

Lots of times when we point our bony fingers and say someone is a certain way, we really should reflect before we do it, because we may reflect later.

----------


## klamath

> I've been saying now that this is the point where the Internet finally and really does become the game-changer. The traditional apparatus has been side-stepped, and even for those who are not on the internet they are exposed to people who are.  Just 10 years ago the M$M would have owned public opinion all over this. and 10 years ago there were already a LOT of people on the Internet.  The fallout from Bundy Ranch demonstrates that we have reached the tipping point where the Internet is primed to change the whole game.
> 
> So in addition to a new domestic patriot act under some innocuous name, we also need to look for legislation to lock down the internet coming in the next several months.


This is so true. The feds can't control the narrative like before when people can live blog from inside the siege. I think you pointed out earlier that the fed know this and are going to try and shut the net down. They though they had it covered with the TFR and road closures.

----------


## pcosmar

> For the record you will find nowhere  me saying people shouldn't come to Bundy's defense armed or otherwise. I have pointed out bad tactics and called out ignorance to what the stakes really were and the constant underestimation of the feds.


Tactics?

That was not even discussed here. and very little elsewhere..

And folks have been observing and documenting the Feds tactics.. They are quite familiar with them,, and many of the militia are Vets,, with Military tactics and training.

They was no call to violence,, just the opposite. There were continuous calls for peaceful protest.. but preparations were made for a violent response* from the Fed Mercenaries*.

I don't think anyone is underestimating the Feds. They are expecting violence from them. That is what these thugs do..

Training several hundred rifles on them kept them peaceful. Seems a good tactic to me.. and if any violence is started..it can be neutralized in seconds,, saving many lives.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Honestly you have been promoting violence for years. I have been fighting this exact war bundy is fighting  since I was a teenager. That is what I did in my youth, trying to keep my home, I wasn't getting high on dope living in a commune *or committing armed robbery*. Again $#@! you.


Un-$#@!ing-called for.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> They did this to commercial fishermen as well.
> 
> I sat directly across the table from the director of the Nazi Marine Fisheries Service when he said, "my goal is to put at least half you people out of business".


OH by the way, I wanted to thank you again for your advice on the commercial fishery bill back in 11, turns out I was one of a handful who helped kill the bill, and it came back in 2013 and turned into a monster scandal down east.   I got some really strong positives East of 95 because of that.

----------


## phill4paul

> I've been saying now that this is the point where the Internet finally and really does become the game-changer. The traditional apparatus has been side-stepped, and even for those who are not on the internet they are exposed to people who are.  Just 10 years ago the M$M would have owned public opinion all over this. and 10 years ago there were already a LOT of people on the Internet.  The fallout from Bundy Ranch demonstrates that we have reached the tipping point where the Internet is primed to change the whole game.
> 
> So in addition to a new domestic patriot act under some innocuous name, we also need to look for legislation to lock down the internet coming in the next several months.


  Knowledge is the ultimate power in war. Always has been. A short decade has made a major difference.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> OH by the way, I wanted to thank you again for your advice on the commercial fishery bill back in 11, turns out I was one of a handful who helped kill the bill, and it came back in 2013 and turned into a monster scandal down east.


Really?

Imagine my shock!

LOL - Kudos, Gunny for killing it the first time around.

Glad I was able to be of a tiny bit of help.

----------


## klamath

> Un-$#@!ing-called for.


 Go to hell. this battle has been my battle since I was a boy. So no $#@!ing person comes in and calls me a boot licker and makes up  lies that I was telling everyone to vote for McCain. He brought that battle on himself.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Un-$#@!ing-called for.


yeah, it is, but I've been trying to stay out of it because Pete drew first blood (pretty viciously I might add), and I've already yelled at Pete too much in the last month.    So I was just trying to keep my distance.  (several people) Taking potshots at klamath until he says something to offend someone seems to have become a sport.  I doubt I'd hold my cool either in the same situation.  Half the stuff he allegedly believes are innuendo from a counterparty.

From where I sit, it all started a while ago when klamath came out pretty heavy against people with a willingness to take up arms against the government.  he cited a basic impossibility of victory and the contrast of modern war vs 100 years ago and how things have changed.  While I am not quite as fervent, I too have dedicated my life to finding a solution that does not include gunfire.  Whether I foresee an inevitability of basic civil defense or not, I will never begrudge someone (and a war vet IIRC?) the position of "I don't want to kill anymore."

The whole thing has exploded way out of proportion and there are deep misunderstandings on both sides; neither party really holds the positions the other party accuses them of.  They are screaming past each other and as far as I can tell it's become a contest of math, quantity and weight of blows in a war of attrition.

I don't know what to say.  The armed robbery thing was uncalled for, but so was Post #774.  Someone who is philosophically opposed to taking up arms, whether I agree with them or not, is not a bootlicker or a copsucker on account of holding that position; particularly if they have arrived at that position from doing the math and counting the odds impossible.  A failure to support selected "Remedy Q" does not imply that one loves the disease.

----------


## klamath

Also for the record I apologize to Pete for the arm robbery cut. I shouldn't have lost my temper to that point.

----------


## Anti Federalist

True enough and a reasonable response.

Hollering at ourselves doesn't do much good.




> yeah, it is, but I've been trying to stay out of it because Pete drew first blood (pretty viciously I might add), and I've already yelled at Pete too much in the last month.    So I was just trying to keep my distance.  (several people) Taking potshots at klamath until he says something to offend someone seems to have become a sport.  I doubt I'd hold my cool either in the same situation.  Half the stuff he allegedly believes are innuendo from a counterparty.
> 
> From where I sit, it all started a while ago when klamath came out pretty heavy against people with a willingness to take up arms against the government.  he cited a basic impossibility of victory and the contrast of modern war vs 100 years ago and how things have changed.  While I am not quite as fervent, I too have dedicated my life to finding a solution that does not include gunfire.  Whether I foresee an inevitability of basic civil defense or not, I will never begrudge someone (and a war vet IIRC?) the position of "I don't want to kill anymore."
> 
> The whole thing has exploded way out of proportion and there are deep misunderstandings on both sides; neither party really holds the positions the other party accuses them of.  They are screaming past each other and as far as I can tell it's become a contest of math, quantity and weight of blows in a war of attrition.
> 
> I don't know what to say.  The armed robbery thing was uncalled for, but so was Post #774.  Someone who is philosophically opposed to taking up arms, whether I agree with them or not, is not a bootlicker or a copsucker on account of holding that position; particularly if they have arrived at that position from doing the math and counting the odds impossible.  A failure to support selected "Remedy Q" does not imply that one loves the disease.

----------


## pcosmar

> Go to hell. this battle has been my battle since I was a boy. So no $#@!ing person comes in and calls me a boot licker and makes up  lies that I was telling everyone to vote for McCain. He brought that battle on himself.


I wish I could search back to 2008.
cus I am sure you were one promoting McCain to keep Obama out, after Ron dropped out.

There were many here doing that,,and perhaps i have gotten you confused.. 
But not with your continuous disparagement of the Militia or of Constitutional Defense.

It will come down to shooting,,sooner or later. I do not want that and have said so.. 
*But it is inevitable.* 
It is a historic Fact and has been repeated often.

I am disarmed. I have no firearms.. I have been non violent for many years,,and the last fight I was in was self defense somewhere around 2002 or 3. (and that aids infected scumbag is dead)

I will fight. If I ever hold a gun I will pick it up off a foe or fallen brother,, and carry it forward.

I do hate to see the bravery of those that stand with this man disparaged.. they are more heroes that anyone fighting for the Corporations in other lands.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Go to hell. this battle has been my battle since I was a boy. So no $#@!ing person comes in and calls me a boot licker and makes up  lies that I was telling everyone to vote for McCain. He brought that battle on himself.


What, you think you're the only person that's been done wrong by this $#@! government?

That you're the only person that's been fighting this battle?

I've been in it since I was 18 (See those NMFS remarks> I was 20 when that meeting took place.) and I'm almost 50.

But I'm following Gunny's lead and letting it drop after this and not derailing the thread.

----------


## fr33

> "This type of problem wouldn’t happen in Texas because all the land is owned privately"  -RP
> 
> lol, no they can never raise property taxes...


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...Texas-Ranchers

----------


## KCIndy

> So in addition to a new domestic patriot act under some innocuous name, we also need to look for legislation to lock down the internet coming in the next several months.



Definitely.  And I'll bet Harry Reid will expedite it in any way possible.

I'll also bet good money that the next target of the anti-gun crowd will be those "horrible long-rage sniper rifles."   

It's going to be critically important that we be able to address these issues calmly, logically and persuasively.  I've talked with a lot of people who had NO idea of what was going on in Nevada except what they had heard from the MSM.  These people had come away with the impression that the government was simply going after the guy for refusing to pay taxes.  The MSM pushes this because they know it will play well with the "that's not fair!" crowd.  

Once I explained the basic facts, and as soon as I explained how they could look up the information themselves, their opinions did a 180.  

We absolutely MUST be ready to explain what's happening - and what is likely to happen next - in clear, simple, understandable language.

----------


## klamath

> I wish I could search back to 2008.
> cus I am sure you were one promoting McCain to keep Obama out, after Ron dropped out.
> 
> There were many here doing that,,and perhaps i have gotten you confused.. 
> But not with your continuous disparagement of the Militia or of Constitutional Defense.
> 
> It will come down to shooting,,sooner or later. I do not want that and have said so.. 
> *But it is inevitable.* 
> It is a historic Fact and has been repeated often.
> ...


 Well you are flat out wrong. I wrote in Ron Paul in 2008. I have hated McCain since I heard him on Michael Reagan's show go absolutely insane on a caller in 2000. even Reagan said he didn't want McCain ANYWHERE near the nuclear button. 
As far a militia, some are good some are bad. My son spent his time in bunkers of one of the Montana militias in the 90's. and no I wouldn't stand next to them and call them my comrades. I don't hang out with child rapists. Other honorable militia I have no problem with.

----------


## Danke

> yeah, it is, but I've been trying to stay out of it because Pete drew first blood (pretty viciously I might add), and I've already yelled at Pete too much in the last month.    So I was just trying to keep my distance.  (several people) Taking potshots at klamath until he says something to offend someone seems to have become a sport.  I doubt I'd hold my cool either in the same situation.  Half the stuff he allegedly believes are innuendo from a counterparty.
> 
> From where I sit, it all started a while ago when klamath came out pretty heavy against people with a willingness to take up arms against the government.  he cited a basic impossibility of victory and the contrast of modern war vs 100 years ago and how things have changed.  While I am not quite as fervent, I too have dedicated my life to finding a solution that does not include gunfire.  Whether I foresee an inevitability of basic civil defense or not, I will never begrudge someone (and a war vet IIRC?) the position of "I don't want to kill anymore."
> 
> The whole thing has exploded way out of proportion and there are deep misunderstandings on both sides; neither party really holds the positions the other party accuses them of.  They are screaming past each other and as far as I can tell it's become a contest of math, quantity and weight of blows in a war of attrition.
> 
> I don't know what to say.  The armed robbery thing was uncalled for, but so was Post #774.  Someone who is philosophically opposed to taking up arms, whether I agree with them or not, is not a bootlicker or a copsucker on account of holding that position; particularly if they have arrived at that position from doing the math and counting the odds impossible.  A failure to support selected "Remedy Q" does not imply that one loves the disease.


I don't know the numbers.  But I have relatives and friends in police departments and military.

I don't think they will participate domestically.  And they have overseas, yet the "insurgents" still have the upper hand in many cases.

----------


## Danke

> My son spent his time in bunkers of one of the Montana militias in the 90's. and no I wouldn't stand next to them and call them my comrades. *I don't hang out with child rapists.* Other honorable militia I have no problem with.


Again, you are truly a hero.

Oh, BTW way, have you heard some RP supporter killed three people recently because his hatred of Jews?

He might have even been a member here!  OMG!

----------


## LibertyEagle

> He has been posting this crap for years.


He didn't say not to.  He just stated the facts of what would ensue.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Again, you are truly a hero.


I guess that means that you WOULD hang out with child rapists?

----------


## klamath

> What, you think you're the only person that's been done wrong by this $#@! government?
> 
> That you're the only person that's been fighting this battle?
> 
> I've been in it since I was 18 (See those NMFS remarks> I was 20 when that meeting took place.) and I'm almost 50.
> 
> But I'm following Gunny's lead and letting it drop after this and not derailing the thread.


Too bad you skipped over where I apologized to Pete even though I don't think he will ever apologize for calling me a boot licker and a McCain supporter. I never said I was the only one.

----------


## Danke

> I guess that means that you WOULD hang out with child rapists?


I certainly wouldn't hang out with you.

----------


## pcosmar

> I guess that means that you WOULD hang out with child rapists?


I would hang with July4Patriot.. But I don't believe the state slander for a minute.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> I don't know the numbers.  But I have relatives and friends in police departments and military.
> 
> I don't think they will participate domestically.  And they have overseas, yet the "insurgents" still have the upper hand in many cases.


If there ever were, God forbid, another Civil War in the US, I figure the US military will be divided by threes, a third that stays loyal to the chain, a third that stands with the resistance, and a third that say "Forget this stuff - I'm going home."  The exact proportions of the three may vary, but it will not be an all or nothing deal.  Unless the string-pullers manage to sway about the public opinion broadly for the loyalists, making the patriots basically nonexistent in proportion, and ending up more like 80/10/10 in the military, with 80% staying loyal.

In such a case, I can't imagine a war would spark in the first place though.  A public battle here or there, it becomes a 'domestic insurgent group.'

In any situation that _would_ actually spark a second civil war, it would leave the military extremely divided, and there is serious doubt whether either side would have much of a raw military advantage.  Maybe the loyalists, because they don't have to rebuild a chain infrastructure, but a newly-built one may be more responsive...  huh.

----------


## klamath

> I guess that means that you WOULD hang out with child rapists?


Apparently so.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> I certainly wouldn't hang out with you.


You needn't worry.  I wouldn't hang out with you, either.

----------


## klamath

> I would hang with July4Patriot.. But I don't believe the state slander for a minute.


It isn't state slander. It is what my son found out hanging with them. If the it came from any other source I would suspect.

----------


## Pericles

> Loggers weren't fighting the battle in the 70's. The loggers didn't come under fire until the late 80's and 90's. The miners were under the gun in the 70's.


PEROT: I have looked at a few owls; I was up in Washington State and the  people were so worried about this huge area they wouldn't let them do  any timber cutting on because of these owls, and I finally asked a  relevant question.  I said how many owls are there?  They said 20.  And I  said okay, I suggest we send Air Force One out here, transport them in  absolutely first class comfort to the nearest national park.  Now the  owls can live happily ever after in hundreds of thousands of acres in  some nearby park, and we can go back to work here.

----------


## DGambler

> Definitely.  And I'll bet Harry Reid will expedite it in any way possible.
> 
> I'll also bet good money that the next target of the anti-gun crowd will be those "horrible long-rage sniper rifles."   
> 
> It's going to be critically important that we be able to address these issues calmly, logically and persuasively.  I've talked with a lot of people who had NO idea of what was going on in Nevada except what they had heard from the MSM.  These people had come away with the impression that the government was simply going after the guy for refusing to pay taxes.  The MSM pushes this because they know it will play well with the "that's not fair!" crowd.  
> 
> Once I explained the basic facts, and as soon as I explained how they could look up the information themselves, their opinions did a 180.  
> 
> We absolutely MUST be ready to explain what's happening - and what is likely to happen next - in clear, simple, understandable language.


Please post what you said or point me to a summary.. I think I have most of it but don't want to misspeak.

----------


## AuH20

> Honestly you have been promoting violence for years. I have been fighting this exact war bundy is fighting  since I was a teenager. That is what I did in my youth, trying to keep my home, I wasn't getting high on dope living in a commune or committing armed robbery. Again $#@! you.


When did Pete glorify his past? He paid his debt to society, so knock it off. As far as violence is concerned I'm numb to it. This is the desired course of action for the regime. We can't fool ourselves into thinking that they're suddenly going to have a change of heart and start indicting each other. Tyrants typically play until there are no more chips on the table. The key though is to force them to play with THEIR OWN CHIPS. I'll leave it at that.

----------


## AuH20

//

----------


## fr33

Y'all arguing with each other about tactics. Then stop acting surprised that a couple of guys got stopped and their rifles confiscated like you did in this thread a few pages back. So far enough people showed up for the Bundys. There was no grand plan nor a grand communication system, nor a widespread awareness that this would happen. The people that did make it there with their weapons could have just as easily been busted by the pigs. That's why I criticized klamath on this topic for backseat driving a few pages back.

----------


## KCIndy

> Please post what you said or point me to a summary.. I think I have most of it but don't want to misspeak.



If you're telling the truth, there is no way you can misspeak.     I mean that!

As for what I've told others about the Nevada situation?  Keeping it simple, I just explained all the facts the MSM were leaving out of all the reports:

1.  The ranch has been in the Bundy family since the 1800s.

2.  The family had been grazing cattle on the open range in the area for decades before the BLM was even formed.

3.  There used to be several dozen ranches in the area, but the BLM's restrictive policies have driven them all off except for Clive Bundy, who is the last one remaining.

4.  The Federal grazing permits issued by the BLM (that Mr. Bundy eventually decided - understandably - not to pay for) had become so restrictive and limited they were practically worthless.

5.  Technically, the Federal government isn't really supposed to own the land in question, anyway.  If anything, the Feds are the latecomers and interlopers.


I added a few bits about Harry Reid and the "shady" solar power deal, but I'm not sure that had much effect.  Reid's a politician, after all, and EVERYONE knows they're crooked!

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

There's a whole lot of people out of work these days.  If you've ever been out of work for a long period, then you know how emotion can just boil over.  It's also very easy to be distracted when one is idle.  People on unemployment with a lot of time on their hands might show up in decent numbers at that ranch.  Combine these factors and the government is probably more concerned that just losing a handful like at Waco.  The government might certainly try to take a much shrewder route.  I'm sure they're having that very discussion this week.

----------


## AuH20



----------


## AuH20

> 


Why the hell are the green clad BLM agents wearing III percent patches????

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> 


The guy kneeling behind the shield totally has the muzzle of his AR poked into the dirt.

----------


## AuH20

Listen to this harrowing account of what almost transpired. 6:33 MARK Thru to 14:30. WOW!!!! The Feds were left to die in that gully if our guys were as ruthless as our enemy. Was it sheer arrogance on their part or a setup?:

----------


## CPUd

> The guy kneeling behind the shield totally has the muzzle of his AR poked into the dirt.


Looks like the other 2 dudes in the middle have their finger on the trigger, too.

----------


## PRB

> Listen to this harrowing account of what almost transpired. 6:33 MARK Thru to 14:30. WOW!!!! The Feds were left to die in that gully if our guys were as ruthless as our enemy. Was it sheer arrogance on their part or a setup?:


Duck Dynasty cap = automatic credibility

----------


## RPtotheWH

http://granitegrok.com/blog/2014/04/...jerry-calls-in

----------


## FloralScent

> The guy kneeling behind the shield totally has the muzzle of his AR poked into the dirt.


The guy standing in the front has a paintball gun.  W-T-F-?

Also, the guy with camera totally flanked them.

----------


## nobody's_hero

> The guy standing the front has a paintball gun.  W-T-F-?
> 
> Also, the guy with camera totally flanked them.


Riot control. The paintball gun is probably loaded with pepper spray in liquid form. Not sure what could be in the little blooper the guy is holding behind him, maybe tear gas. Judging by the wind blowing the flags that day, tear gas would have been pretty ineffective. Of course, if those two 'less than lethal' options don't work, the guy behind them has an M4, as does the guy with the shield, who needs to clean his rifle barrel out.




> Why the hell are the green clad BLM agents wearing III percent patches????


Good question.

----------


## tod evans

Here's hoping that the feds are having trouble with their whores in uniform...

Those who would draw arms on their countrymen for a few pieces of silver have moral and ethical shortcomings...

If the woman and children chastising them didn't sink in they're beyond hope..

Stand tall cowpokes!

----------


## tod evans

Friggin' double post gremlins.....

----------


## nobody's_hero

AuH20 I think that video deserves its own thread. Needs to be promoted so people won't view the militia as a bunch of bloodthirsty types.

----------


## tod evans

> AuH20 I think that video deserves its own thread. Needs to be promoted so people won't view the militia as a bunch of bloodthirsty types.


I'll second this!

Good video.

----------


## nobody's_hero

Chuck Baldwin's there:

----------


## pcosmar

> the guy behind them has an M4, as does the guy with the shield, *who needs to clean his rifle barrel out*.
> 
> 
> .


Shh,, no he doesn't.

I am fine with his Kaboom.

----------


## ClydeCoulter

> Listen to this harrowing account of what almost transpired. 6:33 MARK Thru to 14:30. WOW!!!! The Feds were left to die in that gully if our guys were as ruthless as our enemy. Was it sheer arrogance on their part or a setup?:


I agree that this needs it's own thread.  This is important, and no matter what you think of the messengers, their message makes sense (perhaps the only thing that makes sense in that situation).

----------


## tod evans

> I agree that this needs it's own thread.  This is important, and no matter what you think of the messengers, their message makes sense (perhaps the only thing that makes sense in that situation).


Hell I'll do it....

----------


## AuH20

Note that nothing is mentioned about grazing rights or lack of payment:




> Alan ONeill, a former superintendent of the Lake Mead National Recreation Area in Nevada, agrees. He wrote an opinion piece in the Las Vegas Sun explaining why Bundy is a bully and not a hero.
> 
> * I served as superintendent of the Lake Mead National Recreation Area for the National Park Service from 1987 to 2000. In 1993, we reduced the number of cows that could be grazed on the Bunkerville allotment to 150 because of the emergency listing of the desert tortoise as an endangered species, ONeill explained. Because Bundy refused to remove his cattle to meet the 150 level and ignored repeated requests to do so, his permit was canceled in 1994 and the allotment was closed to grazing.
> 
> It is unfathomable to me that 20 years after the Bunkerville allotment was canceled in 1994, we are still wrestling with getting his cattle off the range. And there were issues of overgrazing that allotment before 1994. It is my opinion that the BLM and the Park Service have done everything possible administratively to try to resolve the issue amicably. In addition, there are two federal court rulings upholding the agencies position, and the most recent ruling demanded Bundy not physically interfere with any seizure or impoundment operation.*

----------


## Pericles

> Why the hell are the green clad BLM agents wearing III percent patches????


They are not - National Park Service Region 3 - brought in from AZ / NM - NV is in Region 4.

----------


## Deborah K

> Listen to this harrowing account of what almost transpired. 6:33 MARK Thru to 14:30. WOW!!!! The Feds were left to die in that gully if our guys were as ruthless as our enemy. Was it sheer arrogance on their part or a setup?:


OMGosh!!!    The Feds risked BLM agents to set the militia up.  It shouldn't come as a shock to me, but it still does.  God Almighty.

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

Battles are won on several fronts.  I think Cliven Bundy was probably better served to invest some resources in public relations rather than fake courts.  Just Us controls the courts, but they can't control the multiple sources of media.

It's still not too late.  I would emphasize some practical arguments and examples rather than abstract debate about government overreach.  I would have no more than three key points and keep repeating them.  One question would be why 52 other ranchers are out of business.  You can paint one, or a few people as nutjobs, but not over 50 people.  I'd also have to guess that a good percentage of the so-called million he owes is penalties and interest.  Somebody should have a number of what this government operation is costing daily so people can see it's hardly about some measly fee.  Bundy needs to express a good example or two of BLM mismanagement.  It should be easy to do, considering government has a reverse Midas touch.  

Bundy can also be effective in front of the camera.  He has a strong, but calm demeanor.  He's well-spoken enough.  Show him on horseback.  Show his true identity of a rancher and grandfather.  I think it takes a little planning, thought, and shrewdness, but it need not be like a fake political ad.  Just emphasize Bundy's genuine nature and show a real human.  Repeating this can help defuse the abstract image of the nut that so many people are itching to possess, especially since organizations like the FBI are so effective with their own PR.

----------


## Deborah K

> Battles are won on several fronts.  I think Cliven Bundy was probably better served to invest some resources in public relations rather than fake courts.  Just Us controls the courts, but they can't control the multiple sources of media.
> 
> It's still not too late.  I would emphasize some practical arguments and examples rather than abstract debate about government overreach.  I would have no more than three key points and keep repeating them.  One question would be why 52 other ranchers are out of business.  You can paint one, or a few people as nutjobs, but not over 50 people.  I'd also have to guess that a good percentage of the so-called million he owes is penalties and interest.  Somebody should have a number of what this government operation is costing daily so people can see it's hardly about some measly fee.  Bundy needs to express a good example or two of BLM mismanagement.  It should be easy to do, considering government has a reverse Midas touch.  
> 
> Bundy can also be effective in front of the camera.  He has a strong, but calm demeanor.  He's well-spoken enough.  Show him on horseback.  Show his true identity of a rancher and grandfather.  I think it takes a little planning, thought, and shrewdness, but it need not be like a fake political ad.  Just emphasize Bundy's genuine nature and show a real human.  Repeating this can help defuse the abstract image of the nut that so many people are itching to possess, especially since organizations like the FBI are so effective with their own PR.


Good ideas here.  You should post them on the FB page.

----------


## tod evans

Could be that Mr.Bundy is past the PR stage at this point...........

----------


## AuH20

> Could be that Mr.Bundy is past the PR stage at this point...........


Bundy did a really poor job of explaining himself. He should have stated that the BLM completely altered his grazing rights agreement and in the process destroyed his ranching business. That's all he needed to say. This decision to dramatically curtail the size of his herd on the basis of the endangered desert tortoise was not settled in any court, but by whims of the executive staff at the BLM.

----------


## limequat

I agree.  Bundy needs a spokesman.

----------


## tod evans

> I agree.  Bundy needs a spokesman.

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> Good ideas here.  You should post them on the FB page.


Thanks for the compliments, Deborah.  I would hope that Bundy might have known this, but he needed a really shrewd PR firm.  Maybe you could explain about FB to Luddite.  Do you mean Bundy's FB page?  I always thought someone had to befriend you before you could post on their page.

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> Could be that Mr.Bundy is past the PR stage at this point...........





> Bundy did a really poor job of explaining himself. He should have stated that the BLM completely altered his grazing rights agreement and in the process destroyed his ranching business. That's all he needed to say. This decision to dramatically curtail the size of his herd on the basis of the endangered desert tortoise was not settled in any court, but by whims of the executive staff at the BLM.




Yeah, he should have started long ago.  I hope it's not too late.  There will be more Bundys.  This will continue, and the battle is on many fronts.  People just need to shrewd the way the government is so very shrewd.  









> 


No doubt about it.  And something with a scope.

----------


## tod evans

> No doubt about it.  And something with a scope.


Scopes work well out there in the desert but they're a hindrance here in the Ozarks....

----------


## ClydeCoulter

> Thanks for the compliments, Deborah.  I would hope that Bundy might have known this, but he needed a really shrewd PR firm.  Maybe you could explain about FB to Luddite.  Do you mean Bundy's FB page?  I always thought someone had to befriend you before you could post on their page.


There are several FB pages claiming to be "Bundy friendly", but that is being questioned at this time.  I'm considering "unfriending" the "Bundy Ranch" page.  They were posting for people NOT to go there now, they didn't need any more help.  Now, after people confronting them over it, they say, "Hey they want people to come, sorry for the mixup". 

_edit: This one seems to be run by Cliven Bundy's daughter: "staff BrandyRanch" https://www.facebook.com/profile.php...912541&fref=ts_

----------


## Deborah K

> 


Looks like mine.

----------


## Deborah K

> There are several FB pages claiming to be "Bundy friendly", but that is being questioned at this time.  I'm considering "unfriending" the "Bundy Ranch" page.  They were posting for people NOT to go there now, they didn't need any more help.  Now, after people confronting them over it, they say, "Hey they want people to come, sorry for the mixup". 
> 
> _edit: This one seems to be run by Cliven Bundy's daughter: "staff BrandyRanch" https://www.facebook.com/profile.php...912541&fref=ts_


I "liked" this page:  https://www.facebook.com/ClivenBundy  has 38k likes on it.  But seems to be collaborating with the one you mentioned....

Edit: the one you mentioned claims to be run by the Bundy family.

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> _edit: This one seems to be run by Cliven Bundy's daughter: "staff BrandyRanch" https://www.facebook.com/profile.php...912541&fref=ts_


If that is the extent of their page, then then need some really professional help.  Everybody remember Hill and Knowlton, the New York PR firm that the Kuwaiti government hired in 1990?

I know it's unrealistic to think that the Bundys could have that kind of money, but there is money out there.  They need to, at the very least, post pictures of very small calves who are sick or dying.  Didn't the government shoot some of their cattle?  Post those pictures with the close-up wound shots.  They need to post family pictures.  Anything. 

I get as angry as anyone about this.  It boils the blood.  It's bothersome and even insulting to have to appeal to others when you know you're right, but there is still a selling campaign.



Edit:  They need to delete the opposition and shouting clutter on that other page.  They need to control the message, and not let the ignorant post on their page.  CONTROL THE MESSAGE!

----------


## Deborah K

I just sent a friend request for the daughter's FB page, Clyde.  We'll see if she accepts.  Gonna tweet that clip about the feds setting up their own men to Greta, Megyn, and Sean.

Later...

----------


## AuH20

You learn something new every minute. So much for that argument:




> Those of you who think this is a legal done deal – and that Bundy doesn’t have a legal leg to stand on – are pointing to the agreement that was made when Nevada became a state in 1864. The problem is, the southern tip of Nevada, where Clark County is and where Bundy’s ranch is, was not part of Nevada when that agreement was made. It was part of the Arizona Territory.
> 
> The land in question was absorbed by Nevada in 1866.
> 
> I think it’s far from legally settled. From the Nevada wiki:
> 
> _ Nevada achieved its current southern boundaries on May 5, 1866, when it absorbed the portion of Pah-Ute County in the Arizona Territory west of the Colorado River, essentially all of present day Nevada south of the 37th parallel.
> 
>     The transfer was prompted by the discovery of gold in the area, and it was thought by officials that Nevada would be better able to oversee the expected population boom. This area includes most of what is now Clark County._

----------


## AuH20

Hannity is going nose to nose with Tamara Holder over the Bundy controversy.

----------


## AuH20

A Rancher chimes in:




> "There have been a lot of people criticizing Clive Bundy because he did not pay his grazing fees for 20 years. The public is also probably wondering why so many other cowboys are supporting Mr. Bundy even though they paid their fees and Clive did not. What you people probably do not realize is that on every rancher's grazing permit it says the following: _"You are authorized to make grazing use of the lands, under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Land Management and covered by this grazing permit, upon your acceptance of the terms and conditions of this grazing permit and payment of grazing fees when due."_ The "mandatory" terms and conditions go on to list the allotment, the number and kind of livestock to be grazed, when the permit begins and ends, the number of active or suspended AUMs (animal units per month), etc. The terms and conditions also list specific requirements such as where salt or mineral supplements can be located, maximum allowable use of forage levels (40% of annual growth), etc., and include a lot more stringent policies that must be adhered to. Every rancher must sign this "contract" agreeing to abide by the TERMS AND CONDITIONS before he or she can make payment. *In the early 90s, the BLM went on a frenzy and drastically cut almost every rancher's permit because of this desert tortoise issue, even though all of us ranchers knew that cow and desert tortoise had co-existed for a hundred+ years. As an example, a family friend had his permit cut by 90%. For those of you who are non ranchers, that would be equated to getting your paycheck cut 90%. In 1976 there were approximately 52 ranching permittees in this area of Nevada. Presently, there are 3. Most of these people lost their livelihoods because of the actions of the BLM. Clive Bundy was one of these people who received extremely unfair and unreasonable TERMS AND CONDITIONS.*
> 
> *Keep in mind that Mr. Bundy was required to sign this contract before he was allowed to pay. Had Clive signed on the dotted line, he would have, in essence, signed his very livelihood away. And so Mr. Bundy took a stand, not only for himself, but for all of us. He refused to be destroyed by a tyrannical federal entity and to have his American liberties and freedoms taken away.* Also keep in mind that all ranchers financially paid dearly for the forage rights those permits allow - - not rights to the land, but rights to use the forage that grows on that land. Many of these AUMS are water based, meaning that the rancher also has a vested right (state owned, not federal) to the waters that adjoin the lands and allow the livestock to drink. These water rights were also purchased at a great price. If a rancher cannot show beneficial use of the water (he must have the appropriate number of livestock that drinks and uses that water), then he loses that water right. Usually water rights and forage rights go hand in hand. Contrary to what the BLM is telling you, they NEVER compensate a rancher for the AUMs they take away. Most times, they tell ranchers that their AUMS are "suspended," but not removed. Unfortunately, my family has thousands of "suspended" AUMs that will probably never be returned. And so, even though these ranchers throughout the course of a hundred years invested thousands(and perhaps millions) of dollars and sacrificed along the way to obtain these rights through purchase from others, at a whim the government can take everything away with the stroke of a pen. This is the very thing that Clive Bundy single handedly took a stand against. Thank you, Clive, from a rancher who considers you a hero."

----------


## ClydeCoulter

> A Rancher chimes in:


Link?

----------


## AuH20

> Link?


I pulled it off facebook. I'll try to find link.

----------


## Feeding the Abscess



----------


## fr33

> 


My guess is that Cliven Bundy knows that. Glen Beck and Sean Hannity probably don't though.

----------


## twomp



----------


## SovereignMN

From Chuck Baldwin's facebook page...(emphasis added is mine)




> I'm sitting in the Las Vegas airport returning home from the Bundy Ranch in Nevada. All I can say is the combined effort of thousands of patriots there should be regarding as one of the most historic events of recent memory. 
> 
> I met with hundreds of patriots still on the ground there in the Nevada desert; I met with the Bundy family. I can tell you, these people are American heroes. 
> 
> BLM was extr...emely wise to withdraw--and they have totally withdrawn. It would have been disastrous for everyone (including the BLM agents) if they had not. I tell you the truth, these men and women who stood in the face of death (and that is exactly what they did) and did not flinch were as courageous as the Minutemen who stood on Lexington Green. 
> 
> I participated in the national press conference conducted by the Bundy family; I spoke to that large gathering and delivered the message that if America's pastors were doing their jobs in the pulpits, none of this would be taking place. I preached a sermon and had prayer with the militiamen at their command post in the field. I am extremely humbled to have been able to be among these patriots.
> 
> *There is no question that there is a nefarious connection between the Bundy raid by agents of the BLM and backroom deals by Senator Harry Reid and his family.* The people of Nevada should demand the truth on this matter, and once it is discovered, run Reid out of the State on a rail. Harry Reid is symbolic of everything that is wrong in Washington, D.C.
> ...

----------


## Wolfgang Bohringer

I caught the last few minutes of Alex Jones' interview with Cliven Bundy yesterday.

I was amazed at Bundy's firm grasp of the principle that NONE of the government agents should be armed.  From Alex's sputtered response, I could see the wheels spinning in Alex's head: "What? Everybody knows that the government should be armed.  That's their job."  

But in the few minutes that I heard of the interview Bundy was adamant that the feds must be disarmed.  I was waiting for him to use the constitutional language decrying "standing armies in our midst".  He didn't use it. But what he said was pure and poetic.

----------


## Lucille

More photos.  h/t http://www.strike-the-root.com/




> This is the first collection in a three part series, showing the federal government’s military build-up to Saturday’s climax under US Interstate 15…


http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/04/1...sco-in-nevada/

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/04/1...oot-americans/

Part 3 is not up yet.

----------


## AuH20

This is the most dishonest comment I've ever read:

http://time.com/#63528/the-armed-reb...ust-the-start/




> Bundy “would probably rather be a martyr than a *profitable rancher,”* says Shea, the former BLM director. “Eventually, you have to draw the line. We go through these sad episodes where fanaticism has to be brought under legal control. And inevitably, somebody is killed.”


Wait a second! How can he be a profitable rancher when the BLM wanted to reduce his herd dramatically? Secondly, he could theoretically lose his water rights if his cattle diminished to a tiny amount.

----------


## AuH20

Just read a piece on NRO. In summation, the author states that while it is clear Bundy was wronged by the BLM, we cannot have citizens arbitrarily breaking the law, since we are a Republic. Republic? I don't see a republic. In this third world nation, laws are selectively enforced every day and certain _exclusive_ groups can ignore entire laws if they feel fit. The genie is not getting back in the bottle anytime soon and I'm glad more citizens are arriving at this conclusion.

----------


## Lucille

Everyone saying how he lost in court also fails to persuade me, considering they're mostly former prosecutors and statists who "pervert the plain meaning of words" in order to constantly rule against the people's liberty and in favor of the government's tyranny.

I'll just put this Will Grigg Liberty Minute here.

The Western States Revolt Begins
http://prolibertate.us/index.php/the...-begins?blog=7




> ...Whatever else can be said about Bundys business practices, his constitutional analysis is unassailable.  Article I, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution specifies and limits the purposes for which the federal government can acquire public land. There is no grant of power for Washington to claim vast expanses of territory within the western states. In spite of this, the federal government owns roughly half of the aggregate acreage in the 11 coterminous western states.
> 
> Since the 1990s, federal regulatory agencies like the BLM have been driving ranchers, loggers, miners, and other entrepreneurs from so-called public lands in the name of protecting the habitat of threatened species. Cliven Bundy is the only rancher in his part of Nevada to stand up to the federal land grab. And his struggle isnt over.
> 
> Let us take back the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free.

----------


## JK/SEA

“Eventually, you have to draw the line. We go through these sad episodes where fanaticism has to be brought under legal control. And inevitably, somebody is killed.”

well put, but we already knew that....

----------


## Superfly

> Everyone saying how he lost in court also fails to persuade me, considering they're mostly former prosecutors and statists who "pervert the plain meaning of words" in order to constantly rule against the people's liberty and in favor of the government's tyranny.


Spot on. The premise that Bundy is wrong because the court's say so is lending far too much credence to the validity of court decisions. The Fed govt essentially changed Bundy's land grant unilaterally...well OF COURSE they're going to rule that it was ok. Have people not learned that the federal courts will almost ALWAYS rule in favor of the government?

----------


## Keith and stuff

The leader of the Rochester, New Hampshire area 9-12 group, perhaps the largest 9-12 group in New England, is helping lead the efforts in Nevada. He drove there with 4 other folks from the Rochester area.




It's this guy.

Why One Man Traveled Almost 3,000 Miles To Take On The Federal Government At A Ranch In Nevada
http://www.businessinsider.com/bundy...delemus-2014-4

----------


## Deborah K

How ironic!!!  The 9/12 groups were founded by Glenn Beck.

----------


## phill4paul

> The leader of the Rochester, New Hampshire area 9-12 group, perhaps the largest 9-12 group in New England, is helping lead the efforts in Nevada. He drove there with 4 other folks from the Rochester area.


  Boy would he be surprised what Glenn Beck thinks of him.

----------


## AuH20

> The leader of the Rochester, New Hampshire area 9-12 group, perhaps the largest 9-12 group in New England, is helping lead the efforts in Nevada. He drove there with 4 other folks from the Rochester area.


Glenn Beck inspired so many great people to believe in themselves and then ended up villifying them in their greatest time of need.

----------


## AuH20

> How ironic!!!  The 9/12 groups were founded by Glenn Beck.


Ideas are bulletproof. They become larger than media personalities. That's why the people who were constantly ragging on GB fans were wrong.

----------


## Tod

> Glenn Beck inspired so many great people to believe in themselves and then ended up vilifying them in their greatest time of need.


A really good illustration of the need to avoid the "cult of personality" and evaluate ideas and thoughts for their own merit.

----------


## AuH20

Undercover feds caused an incident? 16 arrested? It sounds dubious:

http://nationalreport.net/multiple-m...tic-terrorism/

----------


## CaseyJones

> Undercover feds caused an incident? 16 arrested? It sounds dubious:
> 
> http://nationalreport.net/multiple-m...tic-terrorism/


thats a satire site

----------


## Lucille

The Bundys have the What You're Not Being Told vid on their blog, and they're pretty adamant about not posting incorrect and misleading information.  Bundy's daughter said to believe only what is said by them on their FB and blog, so there you have it.  Believe it:

http://bundyranch.blogspot.com/2014/...eing-told.html

They posted on their FB page that the BLM were shooting cattle and they have proof, and it will be on the news tonight:




> Confirmed: I have confirmed that they did kill cattle! It will be on [fox] news tonight as well as Bailey Bundy will be uploading pictures later on today! Thank you for standing by!
> 
> -Andrew Allen


Evidence of cattle that were shot. One of many incidents.
https://www.facebook.com/bundyranch/...26929530717192

----------


## ClydeCoulter

Another post from the Brandy Ranch FB Page:




> We never ever ever intended on putting women on the front lines! *Sheriff Mack is lying*. This is foul that he would say something! We would never do it purposely! 
> 
> Also! We have not harmed the cattle in any way, I have received reports that we are harming our own cattle? Why would we harm our own cattle when we fought to get them back!?
> 
>  Everyone remember although our cattle were taken etc we need to remember that This is about our FREEDOM. Your constitutional rights are at stake!


I brought that up in one of the Bundy Ranch threads...I cannot understand why Mack is spreading this disinfo!

----------


## Lucille

On the slaughtering of Bundy cattle:

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/04/1...m-bundy-ranch/




> The US federal government evoked the fury of animal right groups over their shocking treatment of cattle at the Bundy Ranch, and may soon face legal charges of severe animal abuse in Clark County, Nevada.
> 
> Federal agency’s treatment of residents at the Bundy Ranch this past week included tasering, beating, wrongful arrest, threatening residents with attack dogs, and mobilizing a federal paramilitary force whose barrels were trained on US citizens, all in all, spending at least $3 million of tax payer money in an effort to sell stolen cattle over state lines in Utah and California. A legal argument has also been made that the US Department of Interior’s Bureau of Land Management (BLM) is now guilty of racketeering under the federal RIC) statute (Racketeer Influenced and Corruption Organizations). If all that wasn’t enough, evidence is now emerging regarding pattern of extreme cruelty and abuse, and suspected culling of animals from the Bundy Ranch.
> 
> Nevada Assemblywoman Michelle Fiore has released new shocking information and images which document the horrors which BLM agents have inflicted on previously happy and healthy livestock. 
> [...]
> During a live radio broadcast of The Pete Santilli Show on GNM, Fiore reveals new details of “the BLM’s method of herding where they have slaughtered horses and cows. This time we have video of it, and pictures of it.”
> 
> “I did post the first picture of one cow who was shot in the back of the head from a helicopter (photo above).”
> ...

----------


## pcosmar

> Another post from the Brandy Ranch FB Page:
> 
> 
> 
> I brought that up in one of the Bundy Ranch threads...I cannot understand why Mack is spreading this disinfo!


Where did Sheriff Mack say any such thing.? I have heard that reference before..
yes there were women there. Saw at least one on horseback with the Cattle.. there were not just cowboys, there were cowgirls.

They were there voluntarily. Some of them armed. I doubt you could have kept them away. (not with out a real fight)

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Where did Sheriff Mack say any such thing.? I have heard that reference before..
> yes there were women there. Saw at least one on horseback with the Cattle.. there were not just cowboys, there were cowgirls.
> 
> They were there voluntarily. Some of them armed. I doubt you could have kept them away. (not with out a real fight)


I would imagine if a woman joins a militia today, then she either fully expects to be on the front lines, or she understands the truth that there are no such thing as front lines anymore.

----------


## Lucille

Vid at link.

Feds accused of leaving trail of wreckage after Nevada ranch standoff
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014...anch-standoff/



> Fox News toured the damage -- allegedly caused by the Bureau of Land Management -- which included holes in water tanks and destroyed water lines and fences. According to family friends, the bureau's hired "cowboys" also killed two prize bulls. 
> 
> "They had total control of this land for one week, and look at the destruction they did in one week," said Corey Houston, friend of rancher Cliven Bundy and his family. "So why would you trust somebody like that? And how does that show that they're a better steward?"

----------


## Lucille

> Where did Sheriff Mack say any such thing.? I have heard that reference before..
> yes there were women there. Saw at least one on horseback with the Cattle.. there were not just cowboys, there were cowgirls.
> 
> They were there voluntarily. Some of them armed. I doubt you could have kept them away. (not with out a real fight)


I don't know who he said it to originally, but Ben asked him about it:

http://benswann.com/truth-did-bundy-...ederal-agents/




> A soundbite with Sheriff Mack was played multiple times on Fox News as well featured on The Blaze. That soundbite which is all of 10 seconds explains a strategy of placing women in the line of fire if necessary.
> 
> We were actually strategizing to put all the women up at the front, he said. If they are going to start shooting, its going to be women that are going to be televised all across the world getting shot by these rogue federal officers.
> 
> During his exclusive interview with Sheriff Richard Mack on Monday, Ben Swann asked the sheriff about that soundbite. Did protestors place women where they could be in the line of fire?
> 
> It was a tactical ploy that I was trying to get them to use. says Mack. Mack goes on to clarify that the ploy was not adopted and that he was not on the scene during the standoff.
> [...]
> Sheriff Mack says several women he personally knows who were on the scene volunteered to move to the front of the line. Video from Infowars, which we have shown you gives a very clear picture of exactly what was happening. It is important to note for the purpose of clarity that no formation of women and children in the front line actually took place.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Bundy “would probably rather be a martyr than a profitable rancher,” says Shea, the former BLM director. “Eventually, *you have to draw the line*. We go through these sad episodes where fanaticism has to be brought under legal control. *And inevitably, somebody is killed*.”


Not intentionally malevolent.

----------


## ClydeCoulter

Hey, anyone have connections with patriot Bands?

https://www.facebook.com/bundyranch/...27008787375933




> We are trying to find a GOOD band that would be willing to come play at our Patriot Party on Friday. SOMEONE BIG... any connections will some Country Artist.

----------


## LibertyEagle

I'll bet Charlie Daniels would do it if he could.  That's darn short notice though.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Hey, anyone have connections with patriot Bands?
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/bundyranch/...27008787375933


Jimmy Vaughn?

Charlie Daniels?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I'll bet Charlie Daniels would do it if he could.


Bet Willie Nelson would as well.

----------


## LibertyEagle

I can't imagine anyone big could do it with 2 days notice.

----------


## Lucille

Charlie Daniels did comment on it.

----------


## Contumacious

> A Ruby Ridge-style standoff is brewing in Nevada, where dozens of armed federal agents are closing in on cattle rancher Cliven Bundy over claims that Bundy has allowed his cows to graze illegally on government land, endangering a protected species of tortoise.
> 
> Vowing to take a stand for, your liberty and freedom, Bundy says he is prepared to be killed as authorities surround a 600,000 acre section of public land as a result of Bundy violating a 1993 Bureau of Land Management ruling which changed grazing rights in order to protect the endangered desert tortoise.




.

----------


## pcosmar

> I don't know who he said it to originally, but Ben asked him about it:
> 
> http://benswann.com/truth-did-bundy-...ederal-agents/


Seems damn stupid thing to even suggest..
But the facts are that women have been in this from the start.. It was the BLM abusing one of them early on that prompted many to come and support the Bundys.

----------


## HOLLYWOOD

> I don't know who he said it to originally, but Ben asked him about it:
> 
> http://benswann.com/truth-did-bundy-...ederal-agents/


yes, I caught the coverage after talk radio was yakking about the wake of destruction the BLM and supporting agencies left the ranch/region.  Kinda proves these government thugs had no intention of protecting anything, it is government's interest in only stealing... stealing property and the land to control the future.

I mean look at the logic... no expense is too much for government to rob or destroy. They (.gov) spent millions just to recoupe thousands and look how humble government is to it's citizens, they sent over 200 agents in military garb and sniper rifles, no fly zones, halting all traffic on a interstate, confiscating and destroying cell phones... PLUS the situation wasn't defused because of negotiations, it was defused due to the fear of THEIR own livelihood and inciting the country to realize they live under brutal authoritarian Fascists.

If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.

----------


## phill4paul

> Seems damn stupid thing to even suggest..


  Why? Are Women not affected by these abuses? I know, I'm old school too. I don't like the idea myself. However, it is not like they are unaffected. They have just as much at stake. I know some powerful women. Some that are none violent that would put themselves at the front for just his stated reason. Others, I would rather have a coupla hundreds of yards back.

----------


## Contumacious

> yes, I caught the coverage after talk radio was yakking about the wake of destruction the BLM and supporting agencies left the ranch/region.  *Kinda proves these government thugs had no intention of protecting anything, it is government's interest in only stealing... stealing property and the land to control the future.*
> .


*
Sen. Harry Reid (D-Nev.)* told local TV station KRNV that the showdown wasnt over. We can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it, said Reid. So its not over. How involved is Reid with the drama at the Bundy ranch? The Washington Times reports:

    Speculation on Mr. Reids role in last weeks confrontation at the ranch has been rife, given his prominent position as Nevadas elder statesman and his ties to BLM director Neil Kornze. 

    Mr. Kornze, 35, served for eight years on the Senate leaders staff before joining the BLM in 2011. He was the Mr. Reids pick to head the agency, and his final confirmation was April 8 as the roundup at the Bundy ranch was underway.

    In an updated statement Saturday, Mr. Kornze said the cattle gather was halted because of our grave concern about the safety of employees and members of the public.

*Mr. Reid also has been accused of attempting to shut down the ranch in order to move ahead with two nearby solar energy projects,* an accusation denied Monday by the senators press aide.

    Reid spokeswoman Kristen Orthman told KLAS-TV in Las Vegas that there is no truth to the conspiracy theories that are being pushed by right-wing media outlets.

----------


## AuH20

Kirsten Powers was defiantly in Cliven Bundy's corner on Bill O's show. She stated that the BLM deliberately took away his grazing rights and now are coming back to destroy him over what amounts to be simply grass.

----------


## mosquitobite

> I would imagine if a woman joins a militia today, then she either fully expects to be on the front lines, or she understands the truth that there are no such thing as front lines anymore.


I would willingly go to the front line.

What's ironic is it's probably the same people who are railing about Dunst's comments that are now AGHAST! at the idea that women shouldn't be on the front line.  Drives me nuts the idiotic disconnect from some people!

----------


## Anti Federalist

And I like this here:

----------


## twomp

Why does anyone care who's on the front lines if the government has no intention of shooting?

----------


## JK/SEA

my front line will probably be up the road a few miles....

----------


## Wolfgang Bohringer

> On the slaughtering of Bundy cattle:
> 
> http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/04/1...m-bundy-ranch/
> 
> This is the BLMs practice. They herd animals with helicopters, ATVs, and shotguns If any cows get out of line  they get a bullet in the back of the head...


The same way they herd mundanes.

----------


## CPUd

> On the slaughtering of Bundy cattle:
> 
> http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/04/1...m-bundy-ranch/


I can see BLM getting real quiet about Bundy owing grazing fees.

----------


## Carson

> I don't know who he said it to originally, but Ben asked him about it:
> 
> http://benswann.com/truth-did-bundy-...ederal-agents/





> A soundbite with Sheriff Mack was played multiple times on Fox News as well featured on The Blaze. That soundbite which is all of 10 seconds explains a strategy of placing women in the line of fire if necessary.
> 
> We were actually strategizing to put all the women up at the front, he said. If they are going to start shooting, its going to be women that are going to be televised all across the world getting shot by these rogue federal officers.
> 
> During his exclusive interview with Sheriff Richard Mack on Monday, Ben Swann asked the sheriff about that soundbite. Did protestors place women where they could be in the line of fire?
> 
> It was a tactical ploy that I was trying to get them to use. says Mack. Mack goes on to clarify that the ploy was not adopted and that he was not on the scene during the standoff.
> [...]
> Sheriff Mack says several women he personally knows who were on the scene volunteered to move to the front of the line. Video from Infowars, which we have shown you gives a very clear picture of exactly what was happening. It is important to note for the purpose of clarity that no formation of women and children in the front line actually took place.


I think the problem would have been was how to hold them back.

----------


## devil21

Glenn Beck pipes up and shows his true colors again.  He's comin around....

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014...y-wall-street/




> We did some research online with PsyID today, and found that theres about 10 or 15 percent of the people who are talking about this online that are truly frightening, Beck said on his television program. They dont care what the facts are. They just want a fight.
> 
> Beck said there are many decent, small-government proponents from groups like the Tea Party supporting Bundy, and they need to be aware that the controversy has drawn violent, anti-government individuals who are the rights version of Occupy Wall Street, as well.


He basically also said to just do what the feds say because it was God's will or some similar nonsense.

----------


## klamath

> I would imagine if a woman joins a militia today, then she either fully expects to be on the front lines, or she understands the truth that there are no such thing as front lines anymore.


Yeaw, the hellfire is going over the front lines hitting the CnC in the rear.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> We can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it


So says a member of the biggest criminal gang on the face of the earth, that walk away from their crimes every day.

$#@! $#@!ing you, Harry.

Go applaud your killer Praetorians some more.

----------


## AFPVet

> Why? Are Women not affected by these abuses? I know, I'm old school too. I don't like the idea myself. However, it is not like they are unaffected. They have just as much at stake. I know some powerful women. Some that are none violent that would put themselves at the front for just his stated reason. Others, I would rather have a coupla hundreds of yards back.


I've served with some pretty badass female MPs (Air Force SF members) who would put the bad guy in the ground as quick as the males. We all respected each other and didn't treat each other differently. Technique is technique... and with leverage, most can be taken down with ease—during an apprehension maneuver.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> my front line will probably be up the road a few miles....


there is no such thing as front lines anymore.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> there is no such thing as front lines anymore.


The front line is everywhere.

----------


## WM_in_MO

> Kirsten Powers was defiantly in Cliven Bundy's corner on Bill O's show. She stated that the BLM deliberately took away his grazing rights and now are coming back to destroy him over what amounts to be simply grass.


Why would you torture yourself by watching his bull$#@!?




> The front line is everywhere.

----------


## erowe1

> He basically also said to just do what the feds say because it was God's will or some similar nonsense.


I'd love to see the exact quote if anybody can find it.

----------


## mosquitobite

> Glenn Beck pipes up and shows his true colors again.  He's comin around....
> 
> http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014...y-wall-street/


At least the comments there show people's eyes have been opened.  Most of them are completely disappointed in Beck.  Thankfully!!


But, honestly...
I imagine the next time the FEDS set up one of these confrontations - they WILL fire a shot.  They will not let another crisis go to waste.

----------


## pcosmar

> Why? Are Women not affected by these abuses? I know, I'm old school too. I don't like the idea myself. However, it is not like they are unaffected. They have just as much at stake. I know some powerful women. Some that are none violent that would put themselves at the front for just his stated reason. Others, I would rather have a coupla hundreds of yards back.


No,,as I said women were involved from the start.. And they have a stake. They certainly have every right to be there and to fight as well.

But the idea to put women on the front line as a human shield or a propaganda tool is obscene. And I am glad such an idea was rejected.



> “*We were actually strategizing* to put all the women up at the front,” he said. “If they are going to start shooting, it’s going to be women that are going to be televised all across the world getting shot by these rogue federal officers.”


I would like to know who these "We" were. They need to be marginalized out of any position of leadership.

----------


## Lucille

Good interview here.  http://www.westernjournalism.com/foo...VV4F1Qd1mqk.99

----------


## JK/SEA

i wouldn't mind a woman being on the front line as long as she had control over 3 fire breathing dragons...

just me.

----------


## FloralScent

> No,,as I said women were involved from the start.. And they have a stake. They certainly have every right to be there and to fight as well.
> 
> But the idea to put women on the front line as a human shield or a propaganda tool is obscene. And I am glad such an idea was rejected.
> 
> 
> I would like to know who these "We" were. They need to be marginalized out of any position of leadership.


I believe Sheriff Mack was the one who stated this and the Bundys called him a liar.

----------


## kcchiefs6465

> I believe Sheriff Mack was the one who stated this and the Bundys called him a liar.


And then he backtracked on the statement and said that he wasn't on the scene in time to attempt to implement his strategy.

As to his earlier comments, what a stupid thing to say on national television and a cowardly strategy.

----------


## pcosmar

> And then he backtracked on the statement and said that he wasn't on the scene in time to attempt to implement his strategy.
> 
> As to his earlier comments, what a stupid thing to say on national television and a cowardly strategy.


And a very stupid thing to say. And even more stupid to think.

And from a purely tactical standpoint,, if battle was the intention (which it was not in this situation)

I would have any fighting women in a second line reinforcing role,, because after seeing a few of their men fall they would need no encouragement and would bring hell with them.

----------


## AuH20

Rachel Maddow to Fox News: Stop glorifying an enemy of the state

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/rachel-ma...anch-coverage/

----------


## phill4paul

> And a very stupid thing to say. And even more stupid to think.
> 
> And from a purely tactical standpoint,, is battle was the intention (which it was not in this situation)
> 
> I would have any fighting women in a second line reinforcing role,, because after seeing a few of their men fall they would need no encouragement and would bring hell with them.


  After re-reading this I see what you are saying concerning this tactic being said to be a "human shield" and I agree that if that were the plan that it is, indeed, deplorable.

----------


## HOLLYWOOD

*It's All rigged, bribed, bought, collaboration, coercion, subversion, racketeering, influence, corruption

Evidence of BLM’s Deadly Abuse of Animals Taken from Bundy Ranch*

*Campaign donors, politicians behind Searchlight wind project*
*Duke Energy, Sen. Reid play major role as wind-turbine farm imposed on community*




> *April 2001*, then-Sen. Harry Reid, a Searchlight native, wrote a letter  to the Searchlight Town Advisory Board arguing against a proposed gas  fire-powered plant asserting that it would “ruin” views of Searchlight’s  natural beauty.





> *January 2013*, “I recognize that the proposed wind project in Searchlight has elicited  strong opinions in favor and in opposition from residents and  non-residents of Nevada,” Reid wrote. “We are fortunate to live in a  state that has sunny skies, strong winds, and abundant geothermal  resources on lands that when used properly, will provide for us and our  children a cleaner and more efficient future that gives Nevada a chance  at energy independence.”





> Views from Reid’s property, however, won’t be ruined. That’s because  when *Duke Energy* scaled the project down from 161 turbines to 87  turbines, it removed the proposed turbines near Reid’s property on the  west side of Searchlight.


http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medial...20Final%20.pdf

03-13-13 Press Release - Renewable Energy Final .pdf




> *Duke Energy* has been a* major campaign contributor to Reid* and other prominent Democrats.
> 
>  James E. Rogers, Duke Energy’s CEO, has contributed to both parties,  but made large donations to support Reid’s effort to keep his  majority-leader post in 2010. Reid, in his 2010 re-election campaign,  directly received donations of *$4,800 from Rogers*. The *Duke CEO also  gave $30,400 to the Senate Democratic Campaign Committee and $30,000 to  the Democratic National Committee* that year.
> 
>  In *2012, Duke Energy underwrote the Democratic National Convention  held in Charlotte, N.C.*, where the company is headquartered. *Not only  was Rogers a co-chair of the convention, personally giving it $339,000*,  in cash and in-kind services, but Duke Energy also guaranteed a $10  million loan taken out by the Democratic Party to fund the convention —  *later forgiving the loan and writing it off as a tax-deductible loss.*
> 
> *Duke shareholders thus footed $6 million of the convention’s cost, while U.S. taxpayers were hit for the other $4 million.*
> 
>  The energy giant’s decisions were met with controversy, in part because the DNC had originally banned corporate contributions.


*
April 2012: Bloomberg reports Solar Jobs Join Harry Reid to Chinese Billionaire in Price Drop* 



> A Chinese billionaire is teaming up with the most powerful man in the U.S. Senate to build a solar plant in a dusty corner of Nevada, even as officials accuse China of driving energy companies out of business by dumping cheap components on the American market. 
> ENN Group (ENNGZ) plans a manufacturing and generating facility worth $5 billion, more than all Chinese investment in the U.S. combined last year, in Laughlin, Nevada,
> 
> Company founder Wang Yusuo, one of China’s richest men, has joined with Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid to win incentives including land 113 miles (182 kilometers) southeast of Las Vegas that ENN is buying for $4.5 million, or less than one-eighth of the $38.6 million assessors say it is worth. The project has produced legal work for Reid’s son, Rory, a lawyer at a Las Vegas firm that gave the Nevada Democrat more than $40,000 in the past three election cycles.


*Washington Times: What did Harry Reid know and when did he know it?*

*Clinton/Obama cronies behind Bundy showdownHigh-level Democrats positioned to profit from 'green' projects*



> Reid had lobbied heavily for the company’s business, even traveling to  China. Reid’s son, Rory Reid, formerly a Clark County commissioner,  became a lobbyist for ENN, and the Senate majority leader’s former  senior adviser, *Neil Kornze*, now leads the BLM.



Don't forget this jackass, *"If you're coming to Bunkerville, Make Funeral Plans"* 

*Clark County Commissioner Tom Collins*
 
Tom Collins

----------


## AuH20



----------


## AuH20



----------


## WM_in_MO

> Rachel Maddow to Fox News: Stop glorifying an enemy of the state
> 
> http://www.mediaite.com/tv/rachel-ma...anch-coverage/


Proud enemy of every "State" here, keep it coming statists, your tears sustain me.

----------


## AuH20



----------


## AuH20

A carload of drunken hippies came by and started taunting them?

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Proud enemy of every "State" here, keep it coming statists, your tears sustain me.


Well, if you really mean to uphold and defend the Constitution, then you would _have_ to be an enemy of _this_ state at least.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> *Campaign donors, politicians behind Searchlight wind project*
> *Duke Energy, Sen. Reid play major role as wind-turbine farm imposed on community*


I would be more surprised if Duke Energy _didn't_ have their grubby fingers in this somewhere.




> Don't forget this jackass, *"If you're coming to Bunkerville, Make Funeral Plans"* 
> 
> *Clark County Commissioner Tom Collins*
>  
> Tom Collins


LOL yeah, that guy.  Make funeral plans.  Hold a funeral in effigy to vote this bum out of office.

----------


## pcosmar

> I would be more surprised if Duke Energy _didn't_ have their grubby fingers in this somewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL yeah, that guy.  Make funeral plans.  Hold a funeral in effigy to vote this bum out of office.


It seems that the whole local governance is in need of a diaper change.

They need a new Sheriff,, and this guys gotta go.

I hope there are some local folks that can step up.

----------


## Deborah K

> *It's All rigged, bribed, bought, collaboration, coercion, subversion, racketeering, influence, corruption
> 
> Evidence of BLM’s Deadly Abuse of Animals Taken from Bundy Ranch*
> 
> *Campaign donors, politicians behind Searchlight wind project*
> *Duke Energy, Sen. Reid play major role as wind-turbine farm imposed on community*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm declaring you one of RPFs' official sleuths!

----------


## AuH20

D'Souza will be at ranch:

http://www.dineshdsouza.com/archives...ht-kelly-file/

----------


## devil21

> Proud enemy of every "State" here, keep it coming statists, your tears sustain me.

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

It's a little too much to follow all of these threads.  Seems to me that this issue is a simple one that can be concisely summarized in a couple or three threads.  It seems to be economics, pure and simple.  The solar companies have simply transferred responsibility of the land they took and transferred it to adjacent land.  This is what they are calling secondary mitigation.

Solar project construction would, for instance, destroy water sources for wildlife to drink. Hence, this prompts Wildlife News to write: "This is called 'secondary mitigation.' Wildlife mitigation is things like planting grass wildlife need or like, development of new water sources for wildlife to drink, and restoration of rangeland overgrazed by cattle."

 It seems to me that these solar projects are actually destroying land. They are attempting to offset this destruction by creating these secondary mitigation areas. That means that solar companies have simply used land, destroyed land, and then decree *THAT PEOPLE IN ADJACENT (secondary) AREAS ARE NOW RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND LAND THAT THE SOLAR COMPANIES USED FOR THEIR OWN GAIN. INSTEAD OF RANCHERS PROFITING--ANOTHER COMPANY IS NOW PROFITING!* 

It seems to me that there is no conspiracy here. Solar companies and their minions are just transferring responsibility to people who have nothing do with these projects and people (like Bundy) who are outside the areas of construction.

I could be wrong, but this is what jumps out to me.

----------


## HOLLYWOOD

Simply Outstanding!

We know and understand how these agencies and politicians rigged the system and competely screw property rights as well as create a dictatorial environment that no one can challenge without huge costs, live under due to it crippling burdens and costs, plus the regulations and restrictions, which are INTENTIONAL, passed to Rule and Control states/property with immunity!

The Game is purposely rigged in this FASCIST government that's FOR SALE & FOR THEIR PROFIT!



>

----------


## kcchiefs6465

Hollywood, post #961's first link needs fixed.

Has there been any pictures posted of the grave the Bundys found, the cattle shot from above, etc. or was the link that was posted going to that?

I don't have much time to spare to keep up with every page.

----------


## Thor

> Has there been any pictures posted of the grave the Bundys found, the cattle shot from above, etc. or was the link that was posted going to that?


http://benswann.com/did-blm-bury-bun...raphic-images/

----------


## kcchiefs6465

> http://benswann.com/did-blm-bury-bun...raphic-images/


Thank you.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> http://benswann.com/did-blm-bury-bun...raphic-images/




Not intentionally malevolent.

----------


## Anti Federalist

That'll be you and me some day soon, if there is not a stop put to this nonsense, and right $#@!ing quick.

----------


## Carson

> A Rancher chimes in:





> "There have been a lot of people criticizing Clive Bundy because he did not pay his grazing fees for 20 years. The public is also probably wondering why so many other cowboys are supporting Mr. Bundy even though they paid their fees and Clive did not. What you people probably do not realize is that on every rancher's grazing permit it says the following: "You are authorized to make grazing use of the lands, under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Land Management and covered by this grazing permit, upon your acceptance of the terms and conditions of this grazing permit and payment of grazing fees when due." The "mandatory" terms and conditions go on to list the allotment, the number and kind of livestock to be grazed, when the permit begins and ends, the number of active or suspended AUMs (animal units per month), etc. The terms and conditions also list specific requirements such as where salt or mineral supplements can be located, maximum allowable use of forage levels (40% of annual growth), etc., and include a lot more stringent policies that must be adhered to. Every rancher must sign this "contract" agreeing to abide by the TERMS AND CONDITIONS before he or she can make payment. In the early 90s, the BLM went on a frenzy and drastically cut almost every rancher's permit because of this desert tortoise issue, even though all of us ranchers knew that cow and desert tortoise had co-existed for a hundred+ years. As an example, a family friend had his permit cut by 90%. For those of you who are non ranchers, that would be equated to getting your paycheck cut 90%. In 1976 there were approximately 52 ranching permittees in this area of Nevada. Presently, there are 3. Most of these people lost their livelihoods because of the actions of the BLM. Clive Bundy was one of these people who received extremely unfair and unreasonable TERMS AND CONDITIONS.
> 
> Keep in mind that Mr. Bundy was required to sign this contract before he was allowed to pay. Had Clive signed on the dotted line, he would have, in essence, signed his very livelihood away. And so Mr. Bundy took a stand, not only for himself, but for all of us. He refused to be destroyed by a tyrannical federal entity and to have his American liberties and freedoms taken away. Also keep in mind that all ranchers financially paid dearly for the forage rights those permits allow - - not rights to the land, but rights to use the forage that grows on that land. Many of these AUMS are water based, meaning that the rancher also has a vested right (state owned, not federal) to the waters that adjoin the lands and allow the livestock to drink. These water rights were also purchased at a great price. If a rancher cannot show beneficial use of the water (he must have the appropriate number of livestock that drinks and uses that water), then he loses that water right. Usually water rights and forage rights go hand in hand. Contrary to what the BLM is telling you, they NEVER compensate a rancher for the AUMs they take away. Most times, they tell ranchers that their AUMS are "suspended," but not removed. Unfortunately, my family has thousands of "suspended" AUMs that will probably never be returned. And so, even though these ranchers throughout the course of a hundred years invested thousands(and perhaps millions) of dollars and sacrificed along the way to obtain these rights through purchase from others, at a whim the government can take everything away with the stroke of a pen.* This is the very thing that Clive Bundy single handedly took a stand against. Thank you, Clive, from a rancher who considers you a hero."*



I've been looking for this tidbit that *AuH20* posted. I wanted to study it a little more since it seemed to say so much. Like maybe they wouldn't cash his checks because he wouldn't sign. ?




> Link?


This isn't the source. It does have another link. Maybe it will get us somewhere.

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative...g-2938622.html

----------


## Anti Federalist

////

----------


## RPtotheWH

Reports are coming in that the feds are filling up a hotel with agents, looks like they are preparing for some sort of raid.

----------


## tod evans

> Reports are coming in that the feds are filling up a hotel with agents, looks like they are preparing for some sort of raid.


More information would be good...

----------


## pcosmar

> Reports are coming in that the feds are filling up a hotel with agents, looks like they are preparing for some sort of raid.


Reports from who and posted where?

I am sure that there are folks in the area with their eyes and ears open though,,

----------


## phill4paul

More about the mess the BLM made of the operation. They hired an Utah rancher to round up the cattle to take to Utah to sell. However, the Governor of Utah declined to allow the cattle to cross state lines. The BLM also caused significant damage to Bundy operation.




> Feds accused of leaving trail of wreckage after Nevada ranch standoff
> 
> The federal agency that backed down over the weekend in a tense standoff with a Nevada rancher is being accused of leaving a trail of wreckage behind. 
> 
> Fox News toured the damage -- allegedly caused by the Bureau of Land Management -- *which included holes in water tanks and destroyed water lines and fences. According to family friends, the bureau's hired "cowboys" also killed two prize bulls.* 
> 
> "They had total control of this land for one week, and look at the destruction they did in one week," said Corey Houston, friend of rancher Cliven Bundy and his family. "So why would you trust somebody like that? And how does that show that they're a better steward?" 
> 
> The BLM and other law enforcement officials backed down on Saturday in their effort to seize Bundy's cattle, after hundreds of protesters, some armed, arrived to show support for the Bundy family. In the end, BLM officials left the scene amid concerns about safety, and no shots were fired. 
> ...

----------


## phill4paul

Saturday, April 19, 2014

Digging up 1 of the HUGE holes where they threw the cows

that they had ran to death or shot.

I feel that this NEEDS to be put out for the public to see.



http://bundyranch.blogspot.com/

----------


## Carlybee

> Saturday, April 19, 2014
> 
> Digging up 1 of the HUGE holes where they threw the cows
> 
> that they had ran to death or shot.
> 
> I feel that this NEEDS to be put out for the public to see.
> 
> 
> ...


The anti Bundy crowd won't care. They are out for blood so what's a little cow blood? The oh so tolerant peaceful left are making comments like the BLM should have shot all the protesters. The cows are just collateral damage. There is nothing that will convince the sheep who are stuck so far up the Feds butt they would need a periscope to see beyond what they are told to see. They remind me of the pod people from Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

----------


## KCIndy

> More information would be good...







> Reports from who and posted where?
> 
> I am sure that there are folks in the area with their eyes and ears open though,,



The only motels anywhere near that area are in Mesquite.  I know; I used to drive through there a lot.  Mesquite is immediately inside the Nevada border.  Most of the hotels are actually in the casinos designed to draw in out-of-state visitors from Utah.

The next closest hotels are in Saint George, Utah, up through the Virgin River gorge (a beautiful drive for those who get the chance) and over thirty miles away.

If anyone has the time, one could look up hotel availability in Mesquite.  Probably six or seven hotels there, tops.  

But frankly, if there's going to be a raid my guess is that they'll simply roll everyone out of Las Vegas.  Vegas is only an hour's drive south on I-15.  Why would the Feds move anyone into a motel in Mesquite and tip everyone off?

----------


## MelissaWV

> The only motels anywhere near that area are in Mesquite.  I know; I used to drive through there a lot.  Mesquite is immediately inside the Nevada border.  Most of the hotels are actually in the casinos designed to draw in out-of-state visitors from Utah.
> 
> The next closest hotels are in Saint George, Utah, up through the Virgin River gorge (a beautiful drive for those who get the chance) and over thirty miles away.
> 
> If anyone has the time, one could look up hotel availability in Mesquite.  Probably six or seven hotels there, tops.  
> 
> But frankly, if there's going to be a raid my guess is that they'll simply roll everyone out of Las Vegas.  Vegas is only an hour's drive south on I-15.  Why would the Feds move anyone into a motel in Mesquite and tip everyone off?


According to the other thread(s) about this, they are staying at the Vegas Marriott.  It's one of those secrets that isn't a secret because a friend of a friend of a cop who spilled the beans sent an email that was forwarded twice.  Take that with whatever amount of salt is needed.

----------


## KCIndy

> According to the other thread(s) about this, they are staying at the Vegas Marriott.  It's one of those secrets that isn't a secret because a friend of a friend of a cop who spilled the beans sent an email that was forwarded twice.  Take that with whatever amount of salt is needed.



That would make a lot more sense.

And does anyone wonder why these guys never stay at a Motel 6 or Econo-Lodge?  I'll bet they're getting billed over $100/head at the Marriot, even with their government discount.  Ahh, to live as a leech on the blood of hard working victims.  It's a good life for anyone without a conscience.

----------


## pcosmar

> According to the other thread(s) about this, they are staying at the Vegas Marriott.  It's one of those secrets that isn't a secret because a friend of a friend of a cop who spilled the beans sent an email that was forwarded twice.  Take that with whatever amount of salt is needed.


A quick search shows that BLM used that venue quite often,, and has done so over the last few years..

I did find a video report of such also.




That said,,
There are many aware and prepped folks guarding that ranch.. and I doubt they will be surprised.
Militia Communications are nationwide, and in several forms.

----------


## AuH20



----------


## ClydeCoulter

> That would make a lot more sense.
> 
> And does anyone wonder why these guys never stay at a Motel 6 or Econo-Lodge?  I'll bet they're getting billed over $100/head at the Marriot, even with their government discount.  Ahh, to live as a leech on the blood of hard working victims.  It's a good life for anyone without a conscience.


Why aren't they in pup tents on the range?  pfft.

----------


## Carson

> Why aren't they in pup tents on the range?  pfft.


Unlimited funds. 

As long as they can loot and pillage us, they will continue to fire up the fake money presses and print up what ever it takes to get their way.

----------


## Lucille

I was thinking how they must have done this during calving season to inflict the most damage to his property.  That calves vid they did was pretty sad.

Ron Paul Warns The Nevada Standoff Is A Symptom of Increasing Authoritarianism
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-0...thoritarianism




> Government ownership of land means that land is in theory owned by everyone, but in practice owned by no one. Thus, those who use the land lack the incentives to preserve it for the long term. As a result, land-use rules are set by politicians and bureaucrats. Oftentimes, the so-called public land is used in ways that benefit politically-powerful special interests.
> 
> Politicians and bureaucrats can, and will, arbitrarily change the rules governing the land. In the 19th currently, some Americans moved to Nevada because the government promised them that they, and their descendants, would always be able to use the federally-owned land.  The Nevada ranchers believed they had an implied contract with the government allowing them to use the land for grazing. When government bureaucrats decided they needed to restrict grazing to protect the desert tortoise, they used force to drive most ranchers away. 
> [...]
> A government that continually violates our rights of property and contract can fairly be descried as authoritarian. Of course, the politicians and bureaucrats take offense at this term, but how else do you describe a government that forbids Americans from grazing cattle on land they have used for over a century, from buying health insurance that does not met Obamacares standards, from trading with Cuba, or even from drinking raw milk! That so many in DC support the NSA spying and the TSA assaults on our privacy shows the low regard that too many in government have for our rights. 
> 
> History shows us that authoritarian systems, whether fascist, communist, or Keynesian, will inevitably fail. I believe incidents such as that in Nevada show we may be witnessing the failure of the American authoritarian warfare-welfare state -- and that of course would be good. This is why it so important that those of us who understand the freedom philosophy spread the truth about how statism caused our problems and why liberty is the only solution.

----------


## pcosmar

Everyone needs to keep watch on this.
There should be no such thing as Federal Land, save the few necessary buildings, ports or forts, as specifically allowed by the Constitution.
The Federal government,,by law,, can not own this land. Not by Law,,and not by Bureaucracy.

 This is a gross overreach in Government that they have no business making.

And the Rhetoric is, is that they will not accept the terms of surrender.
And them "Fightin' Words" are coming is people that seem to have Too much Authority.
Authority that they do not have by law or by right.
And people are saying NO.

This is not over,, and people need to stay on their guard and on watch.

----------


## chudrockz

The "Bundy Ranch" FB page is acting weird today, for me at least. It loads up all nice and normal, then after ten seconds or so it "disappears" (screen turns white) and appears to be trying to load more stuff, and never does.

Now I have no idea if this is due to subterfuge, or data mining, or just our crappy break room computers. Maybe someone else who also "likes" their FB page could check it out.

----------


## Deborah K

> The "Bundy Ranch" FB page is acting weird today, for me at least. It loads up all nice and normal, then after ten seconds or so it "disappears" (screen turns white) and appears to be trying to load more stuff, and never does.
> 
> Now I have no idea if this is due to subterfuge, or data mining, or just our crappy break room computers. Maybe someone else who also "likes" their FB page could check it out.



I'm not having any problems.

----------


## Sonny Tufts

> The Federal government,,by law,, can not own this land. Not by Law,,and not by Bureaucracy.


Yes, it can.  The land was acquired from Mexico by treaty, and the Constitution allows Congress to make whatever rules it wishes regarding the land.




> The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.   IV.3.2

----------


## pcosmar

> Yes, it can.  The land was acquired from Mexico by treaty, and the Constitution allows Congress to make whatever rules it wishes regarding the land.


NOPE,,
Not a territory. It is a State. And a county within a state. It is not owned or can be by the Fed.

Though in twisted legalese,, and by proxy, they have managed to do so for many years,,and based on decrees by various "agencies" within or in collusion with the Federal government. 

It is wrong.

----------


## AuH20

Hell of a petition they got here:

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...llows/g6y7smks



> we petition the obama administration to:
> *
> Enforce grazing laws against Cliven Bundy to the extent the law allows.*
> 
> On April 12, 2014, US officials relinquished their power over federal lands in Nevada to a band of armed domestic terrorists, masquerading as "patriots", with regard to the illegal grazing being perpetrated for decades by one Cliven Bundy.
> 
> Mr. Bundy has exhausted years and years of due process, and continues not only to disregard US law, but also does not recognize the legitimacy of the United States government.
> 
> BLM should enforce its mandates under the law.
> ...

----------


## AuH20

More than meets the eye on the Bundy saga:

http://www.jimstonefreelance.com/fro...hersmouth.html




> I live in SW Utah. I grew up on a ranch less than 100 miles from the Bundy's ranch. My father knows Cliven Bundy. I know Cliven's son Ryan. This is not a hoax, it is an action of force by the BLM.
> 
> The BLM was going to sell the cattle at one of the smallest cattle markets in Utah. No cattle markets in Nevada would take the cattle without a properly signed brand inspection (which the BLM cannot obtain without Cliven Bundy's signature). The BLM paid the owner of the Utah cattle market $300,000 to do the sale ('R' Livestock Connection in Monroe, Utah, owned by one Scott G. Robbins, according to the Utah Business Entity Search). Utah Governor Herbert stepped in and forbid them from bringing the cattle into Utah without the legally required health and brand inspections (which again, require Bundy's signature) and that no feral cattle are allowed to be imported at all (per Utah statute). Because Bundy claims ownership over maybe 350-500 head of branded cattle, the other 500-700 estimated head of cattle would all be considered feral. BLM officially backed off, but we suspect they are still secretly shipping them through Utah without any permission to do so, to "private" buyers in Colorado. The contract cowboys that the BLM hired to do the roundup are from Sampson Livestock in Meadow, Utah (traitors one and all).
> 
> *From what I understand, Cliven Bundy owns both the Water Rights and Grazing Rights to all of the land where his cattle run. If Bundy failed to use them, the Grazing Rights would revert to the BLM and would be retired, while the Water Rights would revert to the State of Nevada, likely to be sold to the highest bidder (which would probably be a bidding war between mineral companies that are behind this action with the BLM and the City of Las Vegas which is thirsty for water and has had multiple attempts to buy water--through eminent domain from Utah farmers and ranchers--from Utah, which were all blocked by the Utah Legislature and Utah Governor Herbert). Chances are, the BLM has already filed a claim on the water rights so that they can sell to the highest bidder (instead of the state) and are trying to get the cattle off to show that Bundy cannot use the water beneficially (much like what the US Forest Service and BLM both tried to do to Wayne Hage).*
> 
> Now, for Cliven Bundy, he's not fighting this for his cattle or his own livelihood. He recognizes that he will probably die before this fight is over. He has said multiple times that he is fighting this to wake people up about the tyranny of the Federal Government and also to help wake up the western states about getting the rights to their own land back from the federal government, which has repeatedly shut down ranchers and closed off land. (MO = 1st, get all the ranchers, farmers, Native Americans, and foresters that use the land for positive, sustainable production off of the land; 2nd, grab up all the resources; 3rd, close off the lands to public access including camping, hiking, horseback riding, hunting, fishing, boating, shooting, etc; 4th, sell off the resources to the highest bidder regardless of what that will do to the land, the local environment, or the economy; 5th, collect royalties on the resources in perpetuity; 6th, reduce and eliminate all SLS and PILT payments to the states, impoverishing them beyond belief.)
> 
> Anyway, thanks for posting about this. It is important for us to be able to raise the appropriate resistance.

----------


## tod evans

> we petition the obama administration to:
> 
> Enforce grazing laws against Cliven Bundy to the extent the law allows.
> 
> On April 12, 2014, US officials relinquished their power over federal lands in Nevada to a band of armed domestic terrorists, masquerading as "patriots", with regard to the illegal grazing being perpetrated for decades by one Cliven Bundy.
> 
> Mr. Bundy has exhausted years and years of due process, and continues not only to disregard US law, but also does not recognize the legitimacy of the United States government.
> 
> BLM should enforce its mandates under the law.
> ...



The propaganda arm is nothing if not effective....

----------


## Sonny Tufts

> NOPE,,
> Not a territory. It is a State. And a county within a state. It is not owned or can be by the Fed.


The State of Nevada never acquired any rights to the land.




> In the acrimonious case of Cliven Bundy, it is important that folks understand a bit about the history of the U.S. public lands. Cliven Bundy, the rancher whose cattle were rounded up and then released by the BLM over the weekend, claims that his family has used the land in question since 1880 but the Nevada Constitution pre-dates this by 16 years. When Nevada became a state in 1864, its citizens gave up all claims to unappropriated federal land and codified this in the state’s Constitution. The Nevada Constitution states: 
> 
> “Third. That the people inhabiting said territory do agree and declare, that they forever disclaim all right and title to the unappropriated public lands lying within said territory, and that the same shall be and remain at the sole and entire disposition of the United States; …..”
> 
> If Bundy “owns the land then where is the deed?  Where are the records he paid property taxes? It’s not his land. Bundy also claims that it his “right” to graze these BLM public lands.  This is not the case. The Taylor Grazing Act of 1934 specifically states that the issuance of a grazing permit does not confer any right to graze or right to own the land. The Taylor Grazing Act is the granddaddy of the U.S. laws governing grazing on federal land. “Taylor” was a rancher and a congressman from Colorado, hardly someone to want government tyranny over ranching. 
> 
> So far as consistent with the purposes and provisions of this subchapter, grazing privileges recognized and acknowledged shall be adequately safeguarded, but the creation of a grazing district or the issuance of a permit pursuant to the provisions of this subchapter shall not create any right, title, interest, or estate in or to the lands.
> 
> In Public Lands Council v. Babbitt the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the new grazing regulations promulgated by the Department of Interior under former Secretary of Interior Bruce Babbitt to conform to Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976 (FLPMA) and found: 
> ...


http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2014/...zing/#comments

----------


## Lucille

Be Warned: We’re Closer to a Civil War in the West than You Think
For years, the West has been boiling - and Cliven Bundy is just the thermometer in the pot.
http://www.aleteia.org/en/politics/a...7140405731328?




> If you took a map of the United States and colored the federally-owned land in red it would appear as if the American West was bleeding. Or on fire.
> 
> It is.
> [...]
> For decades we’ve endured schemes, both unrealized and implemented, that stagger common sense: The Big Open, The Buffalo Commons, mustangs (feral horses), introduction of non-native wolves, free-roaming bison, one endangered species crisis after another, and it could all come to a fiery conclusion with the Greater Sage-Grouse, if not before.
> 
> *The Greater Sage-Grouse is one of several wild fowl that could be placed on the Protected Species List in September of 2015. I choose it for my example because I know the bird. I can see them daily if I want to. The Sage-Grouse habitat area is said to be 186 million acres spread over 11 western states. Of this, 40% is on private land.*
> 
> *The Endangered Species Act is the big hammer. ‘Private land be damned,’ is its mantra. If Cliven Bundy is fighting mad over land that is questionably his, wait until the nation sees what happens if thousands of ranchers and farmers on deeded ground face removal or unrealistic restrictions.*
> ...


h/t http://www.strike-the-root.com/ which links to several Bundy-related pieces today, and an essay on rights we don't have:

"American rights are a theory; no scientific measuring device can prove their existence."

http://www.strike-the-root.com/rights-stuff




> For all practical purposes, soldiers were deployed on the US side in this beef. There were about 200 of them up against the cowboy and his wife. The army of rustlers, roughly at company strength in military terms, were armed, teched up to the teeth and taking his herd at one point. If those turtles can’t share 150 square miles of scrub with less than 1,000 head of cattle, it doesn’t sound like they had much of a chance to begin with.
> 
> In any case, as bets go, it’s a shoo-in that your government would be fighting for rats long before ever stooping to defend your rights. Bundy’s son was arrested for filming the action outside a designated “free-speech zone.” The government insisted people must be fenced off in the middle of the Mojave Desert before they could safely express themselves. Ask them, not Webster, the definition of “abridging speech.” The original plan must have been to control any images going public in the showdown. When that proved impossible, they decided to back off. The ruling class has no qualms about facing down peasants with pitchforks. The truth is another matter.
> 
> Discretion is the better part of valor, and 99% of public relations. Fortunately, the joint anti-American task force deployed at Bunkerville never ended up gunning anyone down; their bosses’ bosses had to worry about future elections.

----------


## Deborah K

> The propaganda arm is nothing if not effective....


After 11 days, they only have a little over a thousand signatures.  Doesn't seem very effective to me.  I am seriously thinking about launching a negative campaign against Reid.  If the internet becomes saturated with accurate information about all of his dealings, lies, and targeting, the MSM will ultimately have to pay attention at some point.  I don't think it will take much for Fox to jump on factual information about him, they can't collectively stand the guy.  Anyone who can punitively call peaceful Americans 'domestic terrorists' needs to be 'swift boated' - and SOON.

----------


## donnay

> After 11 days, they only have a little over a thousand signatures.  Doesn't seem very effective to me.  I am seriously thinking about launching a negative campaign against Reid.  If the internet becomes saturated with accurate information about all of his dealings, lies, and targeting, the MSM will ultimately have to pay attention at some point.  I don't think it will take much for Fox to jump on factual information about him, they can't collectively stand the guy.  Anyone who can punitively call peaceful Americans 'domestic terrorists' needs to be 'swift boated' - and SOON.


Harry Greed is a traitor.

----------


## IndianaPolitico

Constitutional Sheriff Brad Rogers of Elkhart County, Indiana spoke at the Bundy ranch. Featuring an introduction by Stewart Rhodes of Oathkeepers.

----------


## pcosmar

> The State of Nevada never acquired any rights to the land.


No.
I am saying that the federal government never owned the land. But that they have pretended and bullied them selves into that position.
Laws have been written on top of laws that should not exist, and written by agencies to hold authority and make laws over land that they did not own.

It is not Constitutionally Allowed for them to own it. They have no right to take it.

----------


## Sonny Tufts

> I am saying that the federal government never owned the land. But that they have pretended and bullied them selves into that position.


They won a war with Mexico and acquired the land by treaty.  There is no constitutional issue.

----------


## erowe1

> They won a war with Mexico and acquired the land by treaty.  There is no constitutional issue.


That doesn't sound constitutional to me.

----------


## Pericles

> They won a war with Mexico and acquired the land by treaty.  There is no constitutional issue.


As opposed to how the Northwest territory and Louisiana Purchase were managed?

----------


## pcosmar

> There is no constitutional issue.


Yes there is.
There is a Constitutional Issue.

The Fed is not allowed to own it.. and any law that says otherwise is not a law.

The constitution states exactly what the Fed can own.

This ain't it.. It is not one of the things that the constitution ALLOWS the Fed to own.
It is not allowed. Any "Law" that says otherwise is contested on the fact that it is not allowed.

The constitution Allows government only certain things,, it confers no powers,, it is meant to limit them.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> They won a war with Mexico and acquired the land by treaty.  There is no constitutional issue.


I'm sorry, I appear to have missed the "Spoils of war: bloodshed bounties belong to Congress" section.  Would you mind terribly pointing out the Article and Section that authorizes this kind of behavior?

----------


## Sonny Tufts

> That doesn't sound constitutional to me.


I don't see why not.  Congress has the power to declare war, the President is CIC of the armed forces, and the President and the Senate can authorize treaties. What's the constitutional problem?

----------


## pcosmar

> They won a war with Mexico and acquired the land by treaty.  There is no constitutional issue.







I hope they know what they are doing.

----------


## Sonny Tufts

> I'm sorry, I appear to have missed the "Spoils of war: bloodshed bounties belong to Congress" section.  Would you mind terribly pointing out the Article and Section that authorizes this kind of behavior?


Sure.  Article I, Section 8, Clause 11; Article II, Section 2, Clauses 1 and 2; and Article IV, Section 3, Clause 2.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Constitutional Sheriff Brad Rogers of Elkhart County, Indiana spoke at the Bundy ranch. Featuring an introduction by Stewart Rhodes of Oathkeepers.


I connected with Brad Rogers a few years ago on FB, and I have to say - celebrity Sheriffs can celebrity all they want, but Brad Rogers is the best Oath-keeping Constitutional Sheriff we've got in America right now. Thanks, and +Rep

----------


## erowe1

> As opposed to how the Northwest territory and Louisiana Purchase were managed?


Also not constitutional.

----------


## erowe1

> I don't see why not.  Congress has the power to declare war, the President is CIC of the armed forces, and the President and the Senate can authorize treaties. What's the constitutional problem?


The acquisition of the land.

----------


## erowe1

> Sure.  Article I, Section 8, Clause 11; Article II, Section 2, Clauses 1 and 2; and Article IV, Section 3, Clause 2.


I.8.11



> To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;


II.2.1-2



> The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.
> 
> He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.


IV.3.2



> The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.


IMHO, those clauses don't authorize the federal government to own land beyond the limits placed on it elsewhere in the Constitution.

The Republican structure that the Constitution demands is such that states exist first on their own right, and then, by their authority, delegate powers to the federal government, not that the federal government can acquire land for itself and then make states out of it.

In acquiring the land un question via treaty after winning a war with Mexico, did the federal government seek the approval of the people living in that land to be placed under its rule?

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## Sonny Tufts

> The acquisition of the land.


Where do you see any constitutional limitation on the subject matter of treaties?  Consider the following:




> That the treaty power of the United States extends to all proper subjects of negotiation between our government and the governments of other nations is clear...The treaty power, as expressed in the constitution, is in terms unlimited, except by those restraints which are found in that instrument against the action of the government, or of its departments, and those arising from the nature of the government itself, and of that of the states. It would not be contended that it extends so far as to authorize what the constitution forbids, or a change in the character of the government, or in that of one of the states, or a cession of any portion of the territory of the latter, without its consent. Railroad Co. v. Lowe, 114 U.S. 525, 541 , 5 S. Sup. Ct. Rep. 995. But, with these exceptions, it is not perceived that there is any limit to the questions which can be adjusted touching any matter which is properly the subject of negotiation with a foreign country.  Geofroy v. Riggs, 133 U.S. 258 (1890)


Since the acquisition of land by the federal government is not forbidden (the Property Clause, IV.3.2, contemplates that the federal government will acquire territories), it seems clear that acquisition via a treaty is constitutional.

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## erowe1

> Where do you see any constitutional limitation on the subject matter of treaties?


The whole Constitution limits treaties. Treaties are not a way around the limitations it places on the federal government. Congress has no authority to enter treaties giving itself unconstitutional powers.

I don't place any weight on SCrOTUS decisions. But notice that even your quote says:



> It would not be contended that it extends so far as to authorize what the constitution forbids, or a change in the character of the government

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## Sonny Tufts

> The Republican structure that the Constitution demands is such that states exist first on their own right, and then, by their authority, delegate powers to the federal government, not that the federal government can acquire land for itself and then make states out of it.


Congress was delegated the power to admit new States in IV.3.1.  Where do you suppose the land constituting the new states was to come from?

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## erowe1

> the Property Clause, IV.3.2, contemplates that the federal government will acquire territories


No it doesn't. It contemplates the states (plural) acquiring territories.

The federal government's authority to own land is bound by Article 1 Section 8.



> To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings

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## erowe1

> Congress was delegated the power to admit new States in IV.3.1.  Where do you suppose the land constituting the new states was to come from?


From the land that exists here on planet earth? What's the relevance of that question?

Notice the language that even you yourself just used: "admit" new states. Not create them. Before a state can join the union, it must first already exist.

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## Sonny Tufts

> No it doesn't. It contemplates the states (plural) acquiring territories.


It refers to territories of "the United States", an obvious reference to the federal government.  




> The federal government's authority to own land is bound by Article 1 Section 8.


If I.8.17 were the sole method for the federal government to acquire land, IV.3.2 would be unnecessary.

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## Pericles

> Also not constitutional.


Time for a history lesson. The Northwest Territory was part of the Territory ceded by Great Britain to the US at the conclusion of the Revolution. This it was acquired before there was a US Constitution, and should be instructive on how the question of territory not belonging to a state is managed in relationship to the Constitution and federal powers.

That is the purpose of this language in the Constitution:

*Article IV Section 3.* New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new States shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress. 

   The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State. 

Once a territory become a state, that state has the same powers as the other states and the territory no longer belongs to the federal government. to do otherwise, would prejudice the rightful claim of sovereignty of that state.

Note that there are no BLM lands in the two territories (now states) mentioned.

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## erowe1

> It refers to territories of "the United States", an obvious reference to the federal government.


I'm not sure about that. Why do you see it that way? I get that that's how the name "United States" has been used since the time of the Civil War. But in my reading of the Constitution, that doesn't appear to be how it was intended in that document.

E.g.
III.3



> Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them


Treason is not warring against the federal government, but against the states.




> If I.8.17 were the sole method for the federal government to acquire land, IV.3.2 would be unnecessary.


Possibly, if it's really true that the plural "states" really means the singular "federal government." But the flip side of that is that IV.3.2 can't annul I.8.17. And even more clearly, it can't annul IV.3.1, which does not allow the federal government to create new states, but only to admit states that already exist apart from it having been formed from the bottom up, not the top down.

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## erowe1

> Time for a history lesson.


Your quote also mentioned the Louisiana Territory, about which none of this applies, and which came about by a blatantly unconstitutional acquisition of land from France by the federal government.

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## Sonny Tufts

> Before a state can join the union, it must first already exist.


And if it is being created out of federal territory, its existence is due to a federal statute authorizing the creation of a State.  In the case of Nevada, the statute begins as follows:




> Section 1. Authorization for formation of state. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the inhabitants of that portion of the territory of Nevada included in the boundaries hereinafter designated be, and they are hereby, authorized to form for themselves, out of said territory, a state government, with the name aforesaid, which said state, when formed, shall be admitted into the Union upon an equal footing with the original states, in all respects whatsoever.


Section 4 of the Act contains a provision pertinent to the Bundy controversy:




> Sec. 4. Authorization to form constitution and state government; limitations. And be it further enacted, That the members of the convention, thus elected, shall meet at the capital of said territory on the first Monday in July next, and, after organization, shall declare, on behalf of the people of said territory, that they adopt the constitution of the United States. Whereupon the said convention shall be, and it is hereby, authorized to form a constitution and state government for said territory: Provided, That the constitution, when formed, shall be republican, and not repugnant to the constitution of the United States, and the principles of the Declaration of Independence: And provided further, That said convention shall provide, by an ordinance irrevocable, without the consent of the United States and the people of said state:—
> First. That there shall be neither slavery nor involuntary servitude in the said state, otherwise than in the punishment of crimes, whereof the party shall have been duly convicted.
> Second. That perfect toleration of religious sentiment shall be secured, and no inhabitant of said state shall ever be molested in person or property on account of his or her mode of religious worship.
> Third. That the people inhabiting said territory do agree and declare that they forever disclaim all right and title to the unappropriated public lands lying within said territory, and that the same shall be and remain at the sole and entire disposition of the United States; and that the lands belonging to citizens of the United States residing without the said state shall never be taxed higher than the land belonging to the residents thereof; and that no taxes shall be imposed by said state on lands or property therein belonging to, or which may hereafter be purchased by, the United States.


http://www.leg.state.nv.us/Division/...cs/1864Act.pdf

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## Deborah K

Very, very interesting debate you have going here, fellas.

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## Pericles

> And if it is being created out of federal territory, its existence is due to a federal statute authorizing the creation of a State.  In the case of Nevada, the statute begins as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> Section 4 of the Act contains a provision pertinent to the Bundy controversy:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.leg.state.nv.us/Division/...cs/1864Act.pdf


Except that Clark county Nevada, was part of the Arizona territory at the time.

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## Antischism

Has this been posted? It's the land deed as acquired by Bundy's parents in 1948. Land deed.

Got it from here.


I noticed it was stated somewhere or quoted here that no one had seen the original deed, so I found it curious that this site had it posted.

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## AuH20

> Has this been posted? It's the land deed as acquired by Bundy's parents in 1948. Land deed.
> 
> Got it from here.


 Water rights were transferred as well.

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## AuH20

They think that there were mercs rounding up cattle as opposed to contract cowboys. Plus, other critical info.

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## klamath

> Has this been posted? It's the land deed as acquired by Bundy's parents in 1948. Land deed.
> 
> Got it from here.
> 
> 
> I noticed it was stated somewhere or quoted here that no one had seen the original deed, so I found it curious that this site had it posted.


Just so the issue doesn't get confused this appears to be the title deed for the bundy ranch but not the open rangeland the feds were rounding the cattle up on.

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## Carson

Anyone a member of Bundy's Blog.

He's having a party tomorrow. I'm sort of thinking having a live webcam running may be a good thing to have running in the morning.

http://bundyranch.blogspot.com/2014/...l#comment-form

I woke up early this morning with a bad feeling about tomorrow for myself. I didn't know if that meant today, which it was, or tomorrow. Then during the day somehow I shifted from thinking of myself and flashed on Bundy and the people at the ranch. Sometimes when I get these feelings and if I talk about them nothing happens.

It wasn't a very strong feeling. More out of the blue.

Then again maybe a live webcam is a bad idea.

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## Carson

Anyone ever hear about how the party went?

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