# News & Current Events > Individual Rights Violations: Case Studies >  Homeowner kills cop during no-knock warrant

## 1000-points-of-fright

It's obvious where the author of this article stands.  Pretty sure most here would agree.




> http://www.totalcriminaldefense.com
> 
> Ryan Frederick is currently behind bars in Chesapeake City Jail in Virginia for the shooting death of a police officer on January 17, 2008. He is charged with first-degree murder.
> 
> Normally you'd think that a person who shoots and kills a police officer might deserve to spend time behind bars, but Frederick's case is a bit different. The shooting happened in his own home during what Frederick believed to be a home invasion.
> 
> Three days before police began breaking down Frederick's door to enter his home on a drug warrant, Frederick's home had been broken into and his belongings rifled through, according to an online Reason Magazine story.
> 
> When Frederick's dogs began barking and he heard someone breaking through his front door, he grabbed a gun that he kept for home protection. As an officer attempted to enter the home through one of the lower door panels, Frederick fatally shot him.
> ...


Assuming that this is an accurate article and we have all the info, is it a good shoot?  Or should he be charged with a lesser crime?  If found guilty, should he serve time? If he's found guilty of any felony (serving time or not) he will lose his 2A rights for what seems to be shoddy work on the part of the cops AND the judge who issued the warrant.

----------


## dannno

What do they expect?

He shouldn't serve any time.

----------


## ItsTime

He IS innocent of the crime the police were trying to serve him a warrant for? No knock? To bad for that cop.

----------


## Time for Change

If the story is in fact correct...I have to lean toward it being justified.

Somebody unannounced breaking in the front door is a pretty good sign that it's time to defend yourself...wouldn't you say?

----------


## KenInMontiMN

Cut him loose. Clear case of self defense. Hopefully no jury would ever convict. If you want to serve no-knock warrants, you'd better have the facts straight and you know the bullets may fly. Execute such warrants at your own risk.

----------


## JeNNiF00F00

Guy shouldn't serve ANY time IMO.  If you have seen these no knock invasions they usually dress in black clothing and are masked.  Anyone busting up into your place like that deserves to get shot no questions asked.

----------


## Kraig

> What do they expect?
> 
> He shouldn't serve any time.


They expect us to bend over and take it.  No Knock warrants are absurd, especially in this case.  Someone should bust this guy out of jail.

----------


## JeNNiF00F00

> They expect us to bend over and take it.  No Knock warrants are absurd, especially in this case.  Someone should bust this guy out of jail.


Im game!

----------


## phill4paul

Confidential informant. Bull$#@!. Likely a recidivit that is being muscled by the jackboots and is willing to do and say anything to get them off his ass. No judge should ever issue a warrant based on "confidential" or "anonymous" testimony.  Any accused should have the right to know the accuser. Too bad for the cop for believing a "stoolies" word.

----------


## acptulsa

A confidential informant.  The word of a single person of no official standing is probable cause these days?  I do remember a time when it wasn't.

Try the judge who issued the warrant for reckless endangerment.

----------


## Kraig

> Im game!


I'm sure you're not serious?

----------


## 1000-points-of-fright

Apparently he got 10 yrs for Voluntary Manslaughter and a $500 fine for the pot.

http://www.wavy.com/dpp/mobile/Jury_...erate_20090202

----------


## Kraig

> Apparently he got 10 yrs for Voluntary Manslaughter and a $500 fine for the pot.
> 
> http://www.wavy.com/dpp/mobile/Jury_...erate_20090202


Pathetic.

----------


## silverhawks

If the police carry out something that looks exactly like a home invasion, they should expect to be treated like a home invader.

----------


## Kraig

> If the police carry out something that looks exactly like a home invasion, they should expect to be treated like a home invader.


It's hard to apply rationality to a job that is inherently violent.

----------


## Ninja Homer

"Confidential informants" are such BS.  An informant needs to be known so they can be held accountable or sued for damages if they give false information.  If anybody should be in jail, it should be the informant.

"No-knock warrants" are also BS.  I hope all law enforcement officers think long and hard before they carry them out.  Innocent people have been killed because of them; innocent women, children, wrong addresses, and now police.  No-knock warrants should be considered illegal if you look at what's really going on; first a cop illegally breaks into somebody's house (it's illegal because the person has not yet been served a warrant), then the person is detained and served the warrant, then the illegal break in is somehow made legal after the fact.

If you look at it logically, if this man is given a life sentence, the police are just making their jobs a lot harder and encouraging crime.  People will become weary and hesitant when somebody breaks into their home, which will result in more successful break ins and more innocent people being hurt.  If somebody disguised as a cop breaks in, people won't do anything to protect themselves at all out of fear that they'll spend their life in prison.  This isn't that hard to understand, why don't they get it?

----------


## acptulsa

> If somebody disguised as a cop breaks in, people won't do anything to protect themselves at all out of fear that they'll spend their life in prison.  This isn't that hard to understand, why don't they get it?


Which is something they make easier every year by trading their uniforms for things you can have made for less than twenty bucks at any t-shirt shop.  You'd almost swear they _want_ to make crime easier; their job seems to have become squeezing us between them and the real criminals.  Or should I say 'unsanctioned' criminals?

----------


## Pericles

> If the police carry out something that looks exactly like a home invasion, they should expect to be treated like a home invader.


Perfect summary of the situation.

----------


## donnay

> What do they expect?
> 
> He shouldn't serve any time.


I totally agree!

The absurdity that a person who has a gun and badge life is more precious than others is what irks me!

----------


## Kraig

> I totally agree!
> 
> The absurdity that a person who has a gun and badge life is more precious than others is what irks me!


Too bad it's even worse than that, it's the idea that the person who is willing to break and enter before even attempting to knock on the door and talk like an adult is more valuable than the guy just trying to defend himself.  The cop was not innocent IMO, you break into a house you are taking on some risks, getting shot is one of them.

----------


## Dr.3D

I have to wonder just why the police would think it necessary to break down the door.  It isn't like the guy would have flushed the plants they thought were there down the toilet.   Why do they think it is always necessary to break down the door.

If somebody is breaking down my door, I would shoot first and asked questions later too.

----------


## Kraig

> I have to wonder just why the police would think it necessary to break down the door.  It isn't like the guy would have flushed the plants they thought were there down the toilet.   Why do they think it is always necessary to break down the door.
> 
> If somebody is breaking down my door, I would shoot first and asked questions later too.


There is a long list of things police do that is not necessary.  It's just a show of force, they don't think anyone should have the right to resist.

----------


## Kotin

Castle Doctrine clearly stands in this situation..


wish he lived in Texas..

----------


## donnay

> Castle Doctrine clearly stands in this situation..
> 
> 
> wish he lived in Texas..


Indeed.  Even if he lived in West Virginia verses Virginia he could use the Castle Doctrine as defense..

----------


## james1906

Only a cop can get a Darwin Award and have someone else pay the price for it.

----------


## Uriel999

Wow, that is insanity. I probably would have done the same. He is another victim of the drug war. Actually though, so is the police officer. Yall don't see this as one sided. A police officer died because of the war on drugs. this whole situation should have been avoided. 1 man has died, and one man is suffering a terrible fate because of the war on drugs. This is a sad event in its totality.

----------


## Minarchy4Sale

As sad as this is, there is no reason to ruin a second life.  The cop knew the risks he was taking when he chose to break into people's homes to investigate victimless 'crimes'.  Let the guy go.

----------


## asimplegirl

I say we jam the DA's email for the arrest of the "informant" for giving bad information that led to the "murder" (in their opinion) of a police officer.  What do you think? Voluntary manslaughter?

----------


## CountryboyRonPaul

> I say we jam the DA's email for the arrest of the "informant" for giving bad information that led to the "murder" (in their opinion) of a police officer.  What do you think? Voluntary manslaughter?


I second that

http://www.chesapeake.va.us/services...or/index.shtml

----------


## pacelli

I hope it was worth it for the cop, he/she must have gotten a hell of a rush breaking the law.  By the way, Japanese maples are beautiful plants, it is a real shame that this poor guy is going to be stuck in prison and won't be able to take care of them.

----------


## OptionsTrader

Criminalizing non-crimes creates jobs.  So what if a few million people have to die or be imprisoned.  It is for the greater good.

----------


## South Park Fan

So a guy gets 10 years for self-defense against a burglar?

----------


## devil21

I didnt read the whole thread and Im sure someone already pointed this out so apologies if repeated.  Frederick was found guilty and got 10 years in prison (tho prosecutors were seeking life) for the "crime" of defending his home from intruders.  Intruders (cops) that fabricated practically their entire case against him, using informants that they encouraged to break into people's houses to find evidence of a crime even.  The moral of the story is that the act of simply killing a cop, whether justified or not, means you will be convicted.  It's sad commentary on how police officers have been put upon a pedestal as being somehow more important people than the average citizen just because of their job.  Whether they do their job correctly doesn't matter anymore.

Fredrick is appealing btw.

----------


## james1906

I'm guessing the prosecutors made sure no gun owners were on the jury.

----------


## HOLLYWOOD

> A confidential informant.  The word of a single person of no official standing is probable cause these days?  I do remember a time when it wasn't.
> 
> Try the judge who issued the warrant for reckless endangerment.



Trial for the Judge on murder, but make it 2nd degree, because the idiot didn't pull the trigger. This is such the law cases in, in-direct crimes, that lead to loss of life, these days. Gross Negligence by the court and then the DA muddy's the water with charging the homeowner?

Ridiculous.

Oh, I forgot, it's government, they are above the law and have Eminent immunity against any actions...

----------


## buffalokid777

> I say we jam the DA's email for the arrest of the "informant" for giving bad information that led to the "murder" (in their opinion) of a police officer.  What do you think? Voluntary manslaughter?


I say the informant deserves to be executed for his false information. (maybe that will stop informants from lying if they might have to pay with their life for lying)

Someone died because of bad information.

An eye for an eye.

Execute the one who gave bad info that led to death. The next Liar informant might think twice if the informant from this case is executed.

----------


## Kraig

> I say the informant deserves to be executed for his false information. (maybe that will stop informants from lying if they might have to pay with their life for lying)
> 
> Someone died because of bad information.
> 
> An eye for an eye.
> 
> Execute the one who gave bad info that led to death. The next Liar informant might think twice if the informant from this case is executed.


Execute the informant because he gave the information to the cops, information they asked for and paid for?  Execute the informant because the cop was a moron and chose to break into the house based on the information rather than just talk to the homeowner about it?  Are you seriously suggesting that any form of bad information provided should have the death penalty?  That doesn't make any sense.  The cop got what he deserve and the only problem with the situation is that an innocent guy is getting sent to jail.

----------


## Kraig

> Wow, that is insanity. I probably would have done the same. He is another victim of the drug war. Actually though, so is the police officer. Yall don't see this as one sided. A police officer died because of the war on drugs. this whole situation should have been avoided. 1 man has died, and one man is suffering a terrible fate because of the war on drugs. This is a sad event in its totality.


So the people running around with guns depriving others of their lives, property, and freedoms are victims now?  He is not a victim of the drug war he is the drug warrior.  Yes it could of been avoided like any other home intruder who gets shot could have been avoided, he could have chosen not to break into someone's home.  The aggressor holds the guilt and the responsibility.

----------


## Isaac Bickerstaff

The dead cop's family should have to pay for the door. . .and the bullets used.

----------


## Brooklyn Red Leg

No sympathy here for the dead cop. He knew what he was doing was wrong. 'I was just following orders' isn't an excuse. Until more and more cops begin speaking out and disobeying unlawful orders to invade peoples' homes, I will think of them as the scum they are.

----------


## Andrew-Austin

> If the police carry out something that looks exactly like a home invasion, they should expect to be treated like a home invader.


It didn't just look like home invasion, it was home invasion.

Still have sympathy for the cop, he did not know any better.

----------


## JK/SEA

The guy will probably be treated like a hero in prison...IF he goes.

----------


## ghengis86

> It didn't just look like home invasion, it was home invasion.
> 
> *Still have sympathy for the cop, he did not know any better*.


Is ignorance a defense?  Oh, I have sympathy for him; I have sympathy for a lost life, a son, possibly a husband and father.

i have sympathy for a man who was tempted with power over others with a badge and gun and couldn't find the internal fortitude to renounce power over his fellow man.  i have sympathy for the man who choose to enforce unconstitutional laws in no doubt what he had always been taught to believe i.e. that drugs are bad and cops are good.  sure, he might not have known any better because all he'd ever known was how to be a thug.  for the people in the world that seek power over others, i have sympathy for they are truly the lost and they know not what they do.  it is pathetic that people are still blinded by power.

don't associate my sympathy for the loss of life with innocence however.  the cop was a home invader and was treated in kind.  ultimately, his choice to carry out a no-knock home invasion was his alone and he paid the price.  there should be some recourse against the infromant and judge, but if the cop had the mental capacity to understand what happens when you break and enter, he would still be here today.

----------


## Volitzer

The Prosecutor is going to have to prove that the cop made his presence known otherwise he aint going to have a case.

----------


## RickyJ

> Assuming that this is an accurate article and we have all the info, is it a good shoot?


Damn good shot. Congratulations to the man for defending his property like that. And may the prosecutor burn in hell forever.

----------


## RickyJ

> It didn't just look like home invasion, it was home invasion.
> 
> Still have sympathy for the cop, he did not know any better.


You have sympathy for someone that breaks into someones house with no warning? 

I have no sympathy for him. He got what he deserved. If he was too stupid to not know better than it is the people that told him to do this that are responsible. Either way, the cops were dead wrong and one paid the price they should always pay for such actions.

----------


## Uriel999

> So the people running around with guns depriving others of their lives, property, and freedoms are victims now?  He is not a victim of the drug war he is the drug warrior.  Yes it could of been avoided like any other home intruder who gets shot could have been avoided, he could have chosen not to break into someone's home.  The aggressor holds the guilt and the responsibility.


My response given directly to you is because you quoted me but is aimed at others as well. The Drug Warrior would not be raiding homes if it wasn't part of his job. I would bet good money the man who died was otherwise a decent person. Don't make this us vs them. It isn't necessarily so. Cops are decent people too. We need legalization of all drugs and until so innocent people, those who are in the drug market and the police will both continue to die. We need to be sympathetic of all deaths in drug war because both "sides" are people. In war sides change. The side you might call enemies one day might be friends the next. The side you call friendies one day might also be enemies the next (btw play metal gear solid 3 for further explanation).  Either way Americans die.

----------


## ghengis86

> My response given directly to you is because you quoted me but is aimed at others as well. The Drug Warrior would not be raiding homes if it wasn't part of his job. I would bet good money the man who died was otherwise a decent person. Don't make this us vs them. It isn't necessarily so. Cops are decent people too. We need legalization of all drugs and until so innocent people, those who are in the drug market and the police will both continue to die. *We need to be sympathetic of all deaths in drug war because both "sides" are people*. In war sides change. The side you might call enemies one day might be friends the next. The side you call friendies one day might also be enemies the next (btw play metal gear solid 3 for further explanation).  Either way Americans die.


i think of the drug war is just a grand scheme to further divide 'us' from 'them'.  similar to the left/right false dichotomy.  anything to keep the people fighting amongst themselves while the elites profit.  This is another example of how they pit citizen against citizen.  like i said before, i have sympathy for a human being that was killed in a tragic event, but i do not claim him to be innocent.  I have sympathy for the man who was forced to take a life too; what a horrible thing it must be to live with that!  As if that in itself is not enough, they lock him up and further ruin this mans life?  Its like a greek tragedy.  Everyone loses because of some stupid 'drug war' and government enforced violence.

----------


## Kraig

> My response given directly to you is because you quoted me but is aimed at others as well. The Drug Warrior would not be raiding homes if it wasn't part of his job. I would bet good money the man who died was otherwise a decent person. Don't make this us vs them. It isn't necessarily so. Cops are decent people too. We need legalization of all drugs and until so innocent people, those who are in the drug market and the police will both continue to die. We need to be sympathetic of all deaths in drug war because both "sides" are people. In war sides change. The side you might call enemies one day might be friends the next. The side you call friendies one day might also be enemies the next (btw play metal gear solid 3 for further explanation).  Either way Americans die.


I wouldn't be fixing computers if it wasn't pary of my job, people choose their jobs you know.  There are also pleny of theives that are decent people when they are not out at night stealing, that is irrelevant.  They also made it us vs. them when I cannot go out on the streets without avoiding these cops in fear of losing property and liberty.  They started this.  I have played Metal Gear Solid 3, great game, but Kojima tried to paint the soldiers as victims of the government while they are the ones acting as the violent strong arm of the government.  You choose to be someone's tool and that is what happens.  Why do you think Big Boss left and essentially became an anarchist. 

Look I don't hold grudges and if there ever came a time where they were on "our side" I would forget all this, but as it stands cops are very dangerous to me and I have to avoid them at all costs for the sake of my own life, until that changes, I am not going to change my view of them.

----------


## Kraig

> The Prosecutor is going to have to prove that the cop made his presence known otherwise he aint going to have a case.


I don't even think that is relevant.  Anyone can say "open the door I'm the cops".  Whatever happened to them being required to show you the search warrant?

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> You have sympathy for someone that breaks into someones house with no warning? 
> 
> I have no sympathy for him. He got what he deserved. If he was too stupid to not know better than it is the people that told him to do this that are responsible. Either way, the cops were dead wrong and one paid the price they should always pay for such actions.


+1 the cop should also be in consideration for a Darwin award of some sort, IMHO.

----------


## Andrew-Austin

> Is ignorance a defense?  Oh, I have sympathy for him; I have sympathy for a lost life, a son, possibly a husband and father.


Nope, I didn't say it was a defense.




> You have sympathy for someone that breaks into someones house with no warning?


No I have sympathy for someone who died needlessly, due to their own foolishness.

----------


## Dr.3D

> I don't even think that is relevant.  Anyone can say "open the door I'm the cops".  Whatever happened to them being required to show you the search warrant?


Exactly!
I wouldn't doubt there are times when the bad guys yell "police search warrant" as they break down somebody's door.  This would be a good way to keep from being shot in some cases, but why should there be the violent entry in the first place?

It isn't like the guy was going to flush his plants down the toilet if they had just knocked at the door.  It would take one heck of a good toilet to digest such large objects.   This gang buster mentality started back during the days of alcohol prohibition and has carried over to the new prohibition.

If they really wanted to search the guys home, they should have just knocked at the door and shown him the search warrant.

----------


## ghengis86

> *Nope, I didn't say it was a defense*.
> 
> 
> 
> *No I have sympathy for someone who died needlessly, due to their own foolishness*.


my assuption; i apologize.

exactly

----------


## ghengis86

> Exactly!
> I wouldn't doubt there are times when the bad guys yell "police search warrant" as they break down somebody's door.  This would be a good way to keep from being shot in some cases, but why should there be the violent entry in the first place?
> 
> *It isn't like the guy was going to flush his plants down the toilet if they had just knocked at the door.  It would take one heck of a good toilet to digest such large objects.   This gang buster mentality started back during the days of alcohol prohibition and has carried over to the new prohibition.
> 
> If they really wanted to search the guys home, they should have just knocked at the door and shown him the search warrant*.


that's what's so infuriating and tragic; if they would just have knocked on the door, shown the warrant and searched the house, everyone lives. 

my mind can't comprehend this much stupidity though...it seriously hurts my brain to think people are this idiotic

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

> Guy shouldn't serve ANY time IMO.  If you have seen these no knock invasions they usually dress in black clothing and are masked.  Anyone busting up into your place like that deserves to get shot no questions asked.


+1

anyone busting into your place period deserves to get shot!

-t

----------


## LATruth

The cop got what he deserved. Set this man free. People should know better, that's the chance you take when entering an inhabited dwelling unannounced.

----------


## brandon

The judge should be sent to jail for issuing the warrant without probable cause.

The guy who killed the cop should be set free and awarded a medal.

----------


## TonySutton

Here is an audio clip 30 minutes after the shooting

http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/3...yan-frederick/

Here is some more info from Reason

http://www.reason.com/blog/printer/126939.html

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Here is an audio clip 30 minutes after the shooting
> 
> http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/3...yan-frederick/
> 
> Here is some more info from Reason
> 
> http://www.reason.com/blog/printer/126939.html


It's painful to listen to.

----------


## LATruth

This sucks, but I predict this man will go to jail for either murder or involuntary manslaughter and set a dangerous precedent that allows cops to enter without warrants and or announcing themselves, and us not being able to defend against it forcefully or legally.

----------


## buffalokid777

> If they really wanted to search the guys home, they should have just knocked at the door and shown him the search warrant.


BINGO!

How hard is that?

----------


## LATruth

> BINGO!
> 
> How hard is that?


That's not how the "new secret police" operate. This is another round of indoctrination. Now even your home is not safe. You have nothing left.

----------


## buffalokid777

> That's not how the "new secret police" operate. This is another round of indoctrination. Now even your home is not safe. You have nothing left.


And they shouldn't be surprised when they get shot for not using logic.

I think the cop deserved it.

A simple knock and search could have avoided this.

----------


## revolutionman

I bet that if you went to whitepages.com and searched for Steven Wright, Chesapeake, VA, you could find his address and phone number, if you ever wanted it for anything.

----------


## Kraig

> BINGO!
> 
> How hard is that?


Question probably isn't how hard it is but how much fun it is.  Lets face, these cops get off to this sort of thing, telling people what to do, acting like a bully, etc.  Basically all forms of $#@!ting on helpless people that they can get away with.  Well this time the guy wasn't so helpless so they paid the price.  A peaceful knock on the door just wouldn't be any fun for them.

----------


## Expatriate

> Here is an audio clip 30 minutes after the shooting
> 
> http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/3...yan-frederick/


Wow. According to the detective interviewing him; 

"You *don't have the right to shoot someone just for busting through your door*, your life isn't in immediate danger, what if he just wanted to steal your money and not kill you?"

Disgusting. I'd bet you anything the detective would shoot someone who forcefully broke into HIS house, not let the invader in because "he might just want cash".

Can you imagine what the break-and-enter rate would be if that detective wrote the laws?

----------


## Kraig

I would shoot an invader if he only wanted cash anyways.  GTFO or get shot.

----------


## TonySutton

> Wow. According to the detective interviewing him; 
> 
> "You *don't have the right to shoot someone just for busting through your door*, your life isn't in immediate danger, what if he just wanted to steal your money and not kill you?"
> 
> Disgusting. I'd bet you anything the detective would shoot someone who forcefully broke into HIS house, not let the invader in because "he might just want cash".
> 
> Can you imagine what the break-and-enter rate would be if that detective wrote the laws?


Following the cops logic, they had ZERO reason to do a raid entry.  They were not in any "immediate danger."  Until of course they started beating through someone's door late at night.

----------


## Expatriate

> Following the cops logic, they had ZERO reason to do a raid entry.  They were not in any "immediate danger."  Until of course they started beating through someone's door late at night.


Good observation. What passes for justice these days is so nearly uniformly hypocritical that you don't even notice it sometimes. I guess it's just the brain's way of trying to cope.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> I wouldn't doubt there are times when the bad guys yell "police search warrant" as they break down somebody's door.  This would be a good way to keep from being shot in some cases, but why should there be the violent entry in the first place?
> ...
> If they really wanted to search the guys home, they should have just knocked at the door and shown him the search warrant.


Yep, the violent entry was uncalled for. On top of that, they should do it during the *daylight*! Don't legitimate people come to your door during the day? If you come at night, you are suspect!

If you listened to the testimony, the Police did knock and say they were the Police. But they only gave him 60 seconds before they busted in. He probably didn't hear them from a bedroom. Plus, when you're in bed *at night*, how long does it take to answer a door? You have to get dressed, and then get your gat before you go to the door. 

Good shooting practices and gun safety require that you identify your target and back stop before shooting. Not easy under pressure, but all gun owners should have training anyway.

----------


## Dr.3D

> Good shooting practices and gun safety require that you identify your target and back stop before shooting. Not easy under pressure, but all gun owners should have training anyway.


I believe he did identify his target.  The target was breaking through a door panel and as it seems, he hit his target.  I suppose he could have waited for a few seconds longer so the target was inside the house.  In some states that counts for a lot.

----------


## dannno

> Wow. According to the detective interviewing him; 
> 
> "You *don't have the right to shoot someone just for busting through your door*, your life isn't in immediate danger, what if he just wanted to steal your money and not kill you?"


Why on earth would I give a crook my money if they weren't going to hurt me??

----------


## ghengis86

> I would shoot an invader if he only wanted cash anyways.  GTFO or get shot.


I would shoot an invader no matter the reason.  There is a reason they're INVADERS and not guests.

----------


## Kraig

Oh my god I just listened to the interview I am SO FURIOUS.  It was probably some police informant that broke in the day before too.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> I believe he did identify his target.  The target was breaking through a door panel and as it seems, he hit his target.  I suppose he could have waited for a few seconds longer so the target was inside the house.  In some states that counts for a lot.


It was kind of like one of those police practice ranges where the cut-outs pop up/out. Some are kids, pregnant women, cops, some are crooks with guns.

He would have points deducted for shooting the cop...

----------


## josh1anderson

Wow
What a shame that a cop is killed and the shooter is in jail.... for what?

A little pot!

America Grow UP, if they want to smoke then let them it's their choose, not the damn governments, job to tell some one what they can and can not do.

There is no constitutional law that sides with them coming into someones home and taking something that is not theirs.

Sorry cop you were in the wrong

*note* They did not go after the person that went into his house 3 days before.

Also the link for this does not work any more?????

Check out Infowars.com

----------


## Dr.3D

> It was kind of like one of those police practice ranges where the cut-outs pop up/out. Some are kids, pregnant women, cops, some are crooks with guns.
> 
> He would have points deducted for shooting the cop...


So if somebody bought a police uniform, and broke down the door, they could have the upper hand when doing break ins and killings?

----------


## devil21

> This sucks, but I predict this man will go to jail for either murder or involuntary manslaughter and set a dangerous precedent that allows cops to enter without warrants and or announcing themselves, and us not being able to defend against it forcefully or legally.


Dude, have you even read the thread?  The case was already tried and Frederick was already sentenced to 10 years for manslaughter.

The Virginian Pilot covered the whole case from start to finish very closely.  If you visit their website and search Ryan Frederick youll get a lot of hits.  Same with reason.com .  It was a really $#@!ty, really shady case against the cops.  Fabricated evidence, jailhouse "witnesses", unidentified bullet holes in the walls that were patched over after Frederick was locked up, etc.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> So if somebody bought a police uniform, and broke down the door, they could have the upper hand when doing break ins and killings?


It works in the movies... 

YouTube - The Godfather - Baptism and Murder

----------


## Kraig

> It works in the movies... 
> 
> YouTube - The Godfather - Baptism and Murder


What is your point?  You think the guy was wrong to do what he did?

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> What is your point?  You think the guy was wrong to do what he did?


He was a little trigger-happy. I'm sure he wishes he hadn't fired. Even if you remove the legal issues and bad police work involved, I bet he still wishes he hadn't killed the guy, and probably doesn't feel justified as he would have if it had been a real crook coming in.

----------


## Kraig

> He was a little trigger-happy. I'm sure he wishes he hadn't fired. Even if you remove the legal issues and bad police work involved, I bet he still wishes he hadn't killed the guy, and probably doesn't feel justified as he would have if it had been a real crook coming in.


Probably not, he probably doesn't think the cops are crooks either, but they are.  They whole reason they were breaking in was to arrest some guy for growing plants, that is a $#@!ing crook.

----------


## Expatriate

> He was a little trigger-happy. I'm sure he wishes he hadn't fired. Even if you remove the legal issues and bad police work involved, I bet he still wishes he hadn't killed the guy, and probably doesn't feel justified as he would if it had been a crook coming in.


On the contrary, he is probably alive only because he fired. The police were breaking into what they suspected was a drug-dealer's house. 

What do you think the _armed_ detective would have done if he made it into the house and saw Frederick standing there pointing a gun in his direction?

----------


## Kraig

Seriously it's not just their method that was bull$#@!, the whole reason they were going after the guy is bull$#@!, the whole reason they got the search warrant is bull$#@!.  It would be *slightly* different if the cops were actually going after a murderer or thief or someone who had otherwise harmed others, it would be *slightly* different if they were legitimately trying to protect society from a bad guy, but they weren't.  Everything the cops did from beginning to end was wrong, I don't give a flying $#@! if "it's their job".  Get a new $#@!ing job them, worthless, violent, tools.

----------


## Expatriate

> Seriously it's not just their method that was bull$#@!, the whole reason they were going after the guy is bull$#@!, the whole reason they got the search warrant is bull$#@!.  It would be *slightly* different if the cops were actually going after a murderer or thief or someone who had otherwise harmed others, it would be *slightly* different if they were legitimately trying to protect society from a bad guy, but they weren't.  Everything the cops did from beginning to end was wrong, I don't give a flying $#@! if "it's their job".  Get a new $#@!ing job them, worthless, violent, tools.


amen to that

----------


## tmosley

> seriously it's not just their method that was bull$#@!, the whole reason they were going after the guy is bull$#@!, the whole reason they got the search warrant is bull$#@!.  It would be *slightly* different if the cops were actually going after a murderer or thief or someone who had otherwise harmed others, it would be *slightly* different if they were legitimately trying to protect society from a bad guy, but they weren't.  Everything the cops did from beginning to end was wrong, i don't give a flying $#@! if "it's their job".  Get a new $#@!ing job them, worthless, violent, tools.


+1776

----------


## ceakins

I really hope this guy wins on appeal. 10 years for defending yourself. WTF?

----------


## Carole

He should not be charged with any crime. He was defending his home and himself.

----------


## Brooklyn Red Leg

> I really hope this guy wins on appeal. 10 years for defending yourself. WTF?


Yea. If this happened to me and I managed to get out, I'd go piss on the cop's grave.

----------


## Uriel999

> I wouldn't be fixing computers if it wasn't pary of my job, people choose their jobs you know.  There are also pleny of theives that are decent people when they are not out at night stealing, that is irrelevant.  They also made it us vs. them when I cannot go out on the streets without avoiding these cops in fear of losing property and liberty.  They started this.  I have played Metal Gear Solid 3, great game, but Kojima tried to paint the soldiers as victims of the government while they are the ones acting as the violent strong arm of the government.  You choose to be someone's tool and that is what happens.  Why do you think Big Boss left and essentially became an anarchist. 
> 
> Look I don't hold grudges and if there ever came a time where they were on "our side" I would forget all this, but as it stands cops are very dangerous to me and I have to avoid them at all costs for the sake of my own life, until that changes, I am not going to change my view of them.


So the "strong arm" can't be a victim of the of government? Big Boss didn't leave until he realized wtf was going on. This cop died before he could realize that. What he was doing was wrong, but he was just a tool of the government and didn't realize it. 




> Wow
> What a shame that a cop is killed and the shooter is in jail.... for what?
> 
> A little pot!
> 
> America Grow UP, if they want to smoke then let them it's their choose, not the damn governments, job to tell some one what they can and can not do.
> 
> There is no constitutional law that sides with them coming into someones home and taking something that is not theirs.
> 
> ...


This

----------


## Kraig

> So the "strong arm" can't be a victim of the of government? Big Boss didn't leave until he realized wtf was going on. This cop died before he could realize that. What he was doing was wrong, but he was just a tool of the government and didn't realize it.


The government isn't some obscure entity, it is made of men, cops are some of those men.  Big Boss also killed a lot of people needlessly before he realized what was going on.  If someone had killed him the process he would have deserved it.   Who knows if the cop realized what he was doing was wrong or not, but actions are greater than thoughts and realizations, and his actions were wrong.  I just have a hard time thinking of both people being victims in a violent confrontation like this, only one of them initiated it.  When police take on the role with the pretense they they are protecting society, when they are actually attempting to enslave many innocent members of society (which is what they were trying to do with this guy even before he shot someone), it's hard for me to cut them any slack.  Is it really that hard to understand that having plants isn't worth this kind of violence?

----------


## Uriel999

> The government isn't some obscure entity, it is made of men, cops are some of those men.  Big Boss also killed a lot of people needlessly before he realized what was going on.  If someone had killed in the process he would have deserved it.   Who knows if the cop realized what he was doing was wrong or not, but actions are greater than thoughts and realizations, and his actions were wrong.  I just have a hard time thinking of both people being victims in a violent confrontation like this, only one of them initiated it.  When police take on the role with the pretense they they are protecting society, when they are actually attempting to enslave many innocent members of society (which is what they were trying to do with this guy even before he shot someone), it's hard for me to cut them any slack.  Is it really that hard to understand that having plants isn't worth this kind of violence?


Your right it is not worth the violence. And I also think the guy who shot the cop was in the right for defending his home. I'm simply pointing out the whole thing is tragic because it IS over just some plants (and the war on drugs as a whole).  And Big Boss only kills as many as you do you. My experience with the Sorrow pissed me off because I don't even kill the bosses and it showed me as killing them. I use the tranq gun.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> On the contrary, he is probably alive only because he fired. The police were breaking into what they suspected was a drug-dealer's house. 
> 
> What do you think the _armed_ detective would have done if he made it into the house and saw Frederick standing there pointing a gun in his direction?


Actually, the part that surprises me about the whole story is that they didn't mow him down after he shot one of them. Guess they showed more restraint than many people would have given them credit for.

All evidence that we can see points to this being a tragic accident on the part of the homeowner. Suitable Punishment: probation (at most for imperfect self-defense or involuntary manslaughter) and extensive firearm safety training.

The verdict of voluntary manslaughter does not seem reasonable with the information we have from the media...

In addition, an extreme internal investigation of the operations of that Police Department needs to take place, with policy changes and possible firings...

----------


## DamianTV

He should walk.

Next problem, that no one has brought up yet, what makes the cop so $#@!ing special that if a cop is killed, whoever shot them gets different charges brought against them.  Murder is Murder.  Thats all it can be, and thats all it should be.  Resisting Arrest is also Resisting Arrest.  They are two separate things.  In this case, also assuming that the facts presented in the article are accurate, I couldnt even legitimately charge the guy with either.

----------


## Expatriate

> Actually, the part that surprises me about the whole story is that they didn't mow him down after he shot one of them.


Well, he was inside the house, they would have had to fire randomly through the walls to shoot him, what with the dead cop's body blocking the hole they had just made in the door. They started yelling 'POLICE - GET DOWN!" as soon as he fired and he complied from what I gathered in the interview.




> Guess they showed more restraint than many people would have given them credit for.


IMO showing restraint would have been NOT breaking and entering like criminals in the middle of the night based on information from some lowlife burglar that he had drugs which were no danger to anybody.




> All evidence that we can see points to this being a tragic accident on the part of the homeowner. Suitable Punishment: probation (at most for imperfect self-defense or involuntary manslaughter) and extensive firearm safety training.


I'd say it's more of a screwup on the cops' part; for one, they knew he had a gun, two, they knew he was freaked out and on guard due to his house being broken into a few days earlier. If it was either gross negligence for their own safety or they were deliberately trying to provoke violence in order to get a better collar.




> The verdict of voluntary manslaughter does not seem reasonable with the information we have from the media...
> 
> In addition, an extreme internal investigation of the operations of that Police Department needs to take place, with policy changes and possible firings...


I agree with you there, but I would add that we also need some drastic policy changes at higher levels, for example ending the unconstitutional federal war on drugs which caused this whole nightmare in the first place.

----------


## loveshiscountry

How come the cops dont stake out his house and arrest him while he leaves?

----------


## Danke

> How come the cops dont stake out his house and arrest him while he leaves?


Yep.  David Koresh used to go for a jog every day outside his "compound."  Why didn't they nab him there?

----------


## akihabro

I try to illuminate my subjects before shooting.  I could see the tactical disadvantage, but you could shoot someone who is unarmed, friend or family member.  If the article is true I say not guilty.  How many cops were there?  They didn't break down his door and scream search warrant?  They didn't pepper his house with 20,000 rounds of ammo after they heard his gun going off?  You really can't know if it's someone dressed like the cops breaking down your door.




> How come the cops dont stake out his house and arrest him while he leaves?


That's time consuming but a clear tactical advantage for the cops.

----------


## anaconda

He should be Time magazine man of the year. This is tyranny of government, plain and simple. Or phenomenal gross negligence by the cops.

----------


## andrewh817

> Wow, that is insanity. I probably would have done the same. He is another victim of the drug war. Actually though, so is the police officer. Yall don't see this as one sided. A police officer died because of the war on drugs. this whole situation should have been avoided. 1 man has died, and one man is suffering a terrible fate because of the war on drugs. This is a sad event in its totality.


Well what exactly do you think cops are doing all day?  Fighting bank robbers and saving the lives of the townspeople?  Give me a break, once they're out of the office the little fun they have consists of pulling people over looking for drugs, weapons, or traffic violations.

Let's face it, without the war on drugs they couldn't afford to pay this many cops! They'd have less money (and drugs) flowing in and less tickets to give out and make more money.

----------


## andrewh817

This is what happens when people blindly trust in someone's words with no factual evidence.  But what else would you expect from the police?

----------


## pahs1994

This guy should definatly walk. But I doubt he will. I have no faith in this system protecting our rights anymore

----------


## Romantarchist

Ryan Frederick = true American hero who is loyal to the Fourth Amendment.

----------

