# Lifestyles & Discussion > Peace Through Religion >  What does the Bible teach about witchcraft--any kind and pagan worship?

## Terry1

Calling all Christians to stand your ground.
*
"Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols." (1 Corinthians 12:1-2)

 "Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of The Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both The Lord's table and the table of demons." (1 Corinthians 10:19-21)*

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## Terry1

The Hidden Traps of Wicca     

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/pare...traps-of-wicca 


Before 16-year-old Rebecca lights candles on the small altar in her bedroom each night, she says her prayers: "Hail, fair Moon, ruler of the night, guard me and mine until the light. Hail fair Sun, ruler of the day, make the morn to light my way." On her altar are four porcelain chalices representing the elements — air, water, fire and earth. Each contains rose petals, semi-precious stones, melted candle wax and dried leaves. They rest on the corners of a five-pointed star. A frog symbolizing "spirit" and "life" sits on point five of the pentagram. Here, in front of her altar, Rebecca performs rituals and casts spells.
Rebecca is one of the growing number of teenage girls who practice Wicca. For the past half-century, this religion has been growing by leaps and bounds in Europe and North America. Drive to the mall and you'll see cars with bumper stickers declaring, "The goddess is alive. Magic is afoot!" Flip on the tube or go to the movies and you'll find witches portrayed as young, powerful and glamorous. From "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" to _The Craft_, something is definitely "afoot" in American culture. 
*Wicca Goes Mainstream*

For many reasons, including the positive attention they're getting in entertainment, paganism, goddess worship and witchcraft have a new crop of devoted followers. The book _Teen Witch: Wicca for a New Generation_ has sold more copies for occult publisher Llewellyn than any other in its 95-year history. Also, the Christian-based Spiritual Counterfeits Project hotline in Berkeley, California, reports receiving more inquiries about Wicca in recent years than any other religion. The callers are nearly all teenage girls. 
It's hard to deny that Wicca and other similar practices are exploding in popularity. Possibly you've experimented with these religions yourself. Or maybe you have friends who call themselves Wiccans. Whatever the reason for your curiosity, this article will help you discover the truth about Wicca, what its followers believe, why it's so appealing and how it's at odds with God's Word.
*What Is Wicca?*

Wicca is a complex religion that is often associated with witchcraft, occultism and neo-paganism. The way these words overlap can get confusing, so let's dive into the dictionary.
*Wicca:* From the Anglo-Saxon word _wicce_. It means to bend or shape nature to your service.
*Witchcraft:* The practice of magic or sorcery by anyone outside the religious mainstream of a society. This term is used in different ways in different times and places.1
*Occultism:* Belief in practices such as astrology, alchemy, divination and magic that are based on "hidden knowledge" about the universe and its mysterious forces. Occultists try to tap into this unseen knowledge to bring about whatever effects they desire.2
*Neo-Paganism:* The recent revival of ancient polytheistic European and Middle-Eastern religions. Neo-paganism is a loosely defined system of worshiping nature and the gods of nature.
These terms may seem as clear as mud. Since different people use them to mean different things, it can be hard to keep them straight. What's important to notice are the common themes of worshiping nature and using spiritual forces to get results. Most anyone who calls himself or herself a Wiccan, goddess worshiper or witch practices these things. Another important thing to remember is that Wicca is not the same as Satanism. In fact, most witches don't believe in Satan at all. 
In addition, Wiccans live by one central rule called The Rede, which says, "Harm no one, do what you will." In other words, witches are free to do whatever seems right to them as long as they avoid harming others. A closely related rule is the Threefold Law, which instructs that "anything you do will come back to you three times over."
*Other Wiccan Beliefs*


Wiccans worship "the mother goddess" and her companion "the horned god." They say both of these deities manifest themselves in nature. For instance, Rebecca's prayer acknowledged the sun as the female goddess and the moon as the god. You may also have heard the goddess referred to as Mother Nature. Wiccans believe that the goddess is in everything — in rocks and in trees, the earth and the sky.Sometimes, the goddess is represented by specific female deities such as the ancient Greek goddesses Artemis (the goddess of the wilderness) or Gaia (the goddess of the Earth), who was celebrated in the film _Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within_. Some Wiccans even claim that the goddess is Mary, the mother of Jesus. The horned god is often represented by the lusty Greek god Pan or the Egyptian god of the dead, Osiris.Most Wiccans celebrate eight holidays or "sabbats" centered on the solar cycles and "esbats" centered on the lunar cycles. These celebrations are supposedly times of heightened interaction between the natural and supernatural worlds.3Magic and spell-casting are an integral part of Wicca. Wiccans say that spells are symbolic acts performed in an altered state of consciousness in order to cause a desired change. There are spells to overcome loneliness, to attract money, to bring inner power and to bind an enemy, among others. Witches acknowledge that spells can be used to do good or harm.Wicca has no central book (like the Bible) that spells out its beliefs, so witches practice their religion in different ways. Some witches meet in groups called covens or circles, while others practice alone.4
*Bewitched Teens*

We've already mentioned "Buffy" and _The Craft_, and then there are "Sabrina the Teenage Witch," "Charmed" and _Practical Magic_. Why are movies, television and magazines so obsessed with Wicca and witchcraft? And why are teens, especially girls, so enthusiastic about picking up the trend? Here are a few factors that might help explain this phenomenon:

*Girl Power:* According to its own myths, Wicca began more than 35,000 years ago within earth's very first civilization. In this culture, women ruled. Life was peaceful and prosperous, and people worshiped nature and the goddess. The serene existence was supposedly shattered when male warriors invaded the nurturing female-led communities.5 Wiccans say that throughout history, they have been fighting to overcome the oppression of a male-ruled society. Today, Wiccans claim there is a goddess revival. They say women are reclaiming their power after living under male domination for too long. They call for women to usher in a new era of peace by throwing off the "shackles" of "male-dominated monotheistic religions" such as Christianity and follow the goddess again in all her forms. It's easy to see why this myth has huge feminist appeal.*Just Plain Power:* The thought of being able to control spiritual forces sounds pretty good to many teens who otherwise might feel powerless. Wiccans boast that their religion gives even young witches a great deal of control. Also, the secrecy of rituals may provide a sense of power.6*Saving the Earth:* Teens who have grown up hearing news about the rapid destruction of the environment are likely to feel compelled to do something to help stop it. Wicca seems to provide an opportunity to treat nature with great care and reverence.*Having It My Way:* Wicca has no set rules or absolute standards. Think back to The Rede, which tells followers to "do what you will." In Wicca, each individual gets to decide on his or her own rules. As one Wiccan high priestess notes, "Within the circle there are no absolutes — no rights and wrongs."7 Since most teens don't believe in truth or absolute moral standards, Wicca can appear to be the perfect mix 'n' match religion.


Unfortunately, though these things may sound good, they're deceptions that lead followers down a path to destruction.
*In Over My Head: A Former Wiccan Tells Her Story*

Kathy was raised in the church but rejected its teaching in her teens. She lived in Salem, Mass., a place with a history of witchcraft and many practicing Wiccans. "I was always kind of artsy, different and non-conformist," she says, "Wicca attracted my interest because it appealed to those facets of my personality. It was certainly non-conformist, and I liked the mystery surrounding it." So Kathy found a Wiccan high priestess who took her under her wing and taught her how to be a witch. "She told me it was all white magic, and that's all I was interested in." 
But after a few years, things turned sour. "The more I learned, the more things started to spiral downward, deeper and deeper into darkness and black magic. I became very good at what I was being taught. My teacher never acknowledged Satan but did say there was something called 'the abyss' that we should avoid." 
For Kathy, however, that proved to be difficult. "One hot summer night I was lying awake in my bedroom when all of a sudden the room became very cold. I started to shiver and broke out into a cold sweat, although it was the height of summer. A cold wind blew in through my windows, startling me. Now I was terrified. I hugged my knees to my chest and gasped as a legion of what can only be described as black demons encircled my head, all laughing at me. I started screaming out my Wiccan spells to rebuke them, hoping they would disappear. That only made things worse. The laughter escalated with each spell I tried. 
"Then all of a sudden I remembered my days in Sunday school as a child and the teachings of Jesus. I hadn't thought about that in a long time. In a loud voice I called upon Jesus Christ to rid the room of this dark presence. Instantly they were gone, and my bedroom was once again calm and warm. My life was never the same after that." 
The next day on the way to school Kathy told herself, _You have some serious personal inventory to do._ She walked into a church that afternoon and has never looked back. Kathy is a Christian now and warns women who think Wicca is harmless. "A lot of women think that by practicing Wicca, worshiping this so-called goddess, that they are celebrating their womanhood. I am here to tell them there is a lot more to it than that. Lots of them haven't had the experiences I have. But they can and will if they stick with it. It's like the warning on a pack of cigarettes: 'Wicca is dangerous and could be hazardous to your health.'"
*What Does God Think About Witchcraft?*

Since you're reading this article, you're probably curious about how Wicca measures up to the Bible. Can you be a Christian and dabble in Wicca? What does God have to say about magic and the supernatural world? Keep reading!
*The spiritual world is real, and so is Satan.*

thing Wiccans have right is that there is a supernatural world that interacts constantly with the world we see, touch and smell. Unfortunately, they believe it's okay for humans to interact with spirits and spiritual forces any way we choose. To the contrary, the apostle Paul writes that the spiritual realm is potentially dangerous. Therefore, we need to treat it the way God tells us to and be prepared for spiritual battles of good versus evil.


The Bible says:For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. (Ephesians 6:12-13)Many Wiccans say that Wicca is harmless and nature-loving — that it has nothing to do with evil, Satanism and dark forces. But that is exactly what Satan _wants_ them to believe! Intent on deceit, "Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light," says Paul. "It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness." Paul says that if they don't turn toward God and repent, "their end will be what their actions deserve" (2 Corinthians 11:14-15).
*We should worship God, not His creation.*

Wiccans are also right to care for and appreciate nature. But they go too far when they start worshiping it. Jesus tells His followers in the Gospel of Luke, "Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only" (Luke 4:8). Creation is merely a reflection of His glory and is not to be worshiped.
The Bible says:For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.… They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator — who is forever praised. Amen. (Romans 1:21-23, 25)*Don't try to contact or control supernatural forces.

Magic and spells depend on what Wiccans call a psychic link. Psychic development can involve training in divination — the attempt to obtain information about the past, present or future by occult means or one's own psychic abilities.8 The Bible is very clear that divination and any other form of supernatural contact (other than prayer, of course!) is forbidden, since it relies on a supernatural power apart from God. In other words, there is no such thing as "white magic." 
The Bible says:Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you." (Deuteronomy 18:10-12)
Do not practice divination or sorcery. (Leviticus 19:26)*

*Jesus is the Source of real girl power.*

*Many Wiccans are critical of the church's view of women. They claim that Christianity does not empower women, whereas Wicca does. While it's true that some Christians have distorted God's Word and not honored women, the Bible says that men and women are equally important in the eyes of God. 
The Bible says:So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. (Genesis 1:27)Because God places a high value on women as bearers of His image, Christianity honors women in a way that's unique. That's why women were often with Jesus during His ministry. And in John 4 we see Jesus treating a Samaritan woman with utmost respect, even though men weren't supposed to talk to women, and Samaritans were considered outcasts in Jewish society. 
*

*We don't need to make up our own rules.*

*In Wicca, each follower is told to do as she wills. Their only standard is that no one should do harm. In other words, there is no absolute truth. But this presents several problems. First, how can one be sure that no harm is being done? Is there any way to know all the consequences of an action? No! And aren't personal feelings a wishy-washy method of determining right and wrong? After all, Alex Sanders, a well-known Wiccan who died in the 1980s, wrote, "A thing is good for me until I feel it is not right for me." Another witch named Stewart Farrar elaborated, "The witch's own conscience must be the final arbiter."9 What if a witch one day feels that incest or murder is the right thing to do? Is there anything to stop him? Even though most Wiccans would say that these things are wrong, they have no firm basis for saying so.
Christianity, on the other hand, provides a powerful authority for denouncing racism, crime or any other moral wrong: God's holy character and His Word, the Bible. 
The Bible says:All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)Wiccans do not believe in sin as Christians do. They see sin as an outdated, constraining concept. Therefore, they see no need for God. Wiccan high priestess Starhawk says, "We can now open new eyes and see there is nothing to be saved from, no struggle of life against the universe, no God outside the world, to be feared and obeyed."10 Through spiritual self-improvement, Wiccans hope to reach their equivalent of heaven, called the Summerland or the Land of Eternal Youth.
On the other hand, the Bible tells us that no amount of good work can earn us eternal life. Through Christ alone we are saved. 
The Bible says:"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." ( Jesus in John 14:6)*

*It's Your Choice*

*God has made it clear that Wicca is dangerous and incompatible with Christianity. He made His creation for us to enjoy as a reflection of His character, but not to be worshiped instead of Him. Wicca may seem attractive, magical and different, but it does not give eternal life and a relationship with the God of the universe. If you choose Wicca, you cannot choose God as well, because He will not tolerate worship of anything but Himself. He is perfect and holy. Study God's Word and you will find that a life centered on the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who gave His life for us on the Cross is better than anything we could ever find here on earth.*

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## Natural Citizen

Ah, Yes. Witchcraft is certainly interesting. Ah well. Is a dern shame everything has to be discussed by Christians all of the time. I was going to log off anyhow. Have stuff to do.

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## HVACTech

> Calling all Christians to stand your ground.


what is your understanding of the word "pagan"?

the one that I accept.
a person of a natural or earth based faith.

this seems reasonable enough for me. (all things considered)
what is it, about this word. "pagan"
that yanks your chain?

personally, I will leave the "witchcraft" stuff..
to Harry potter.

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## Terry1

> Ah, Yes. Witchcraft is certainly interesting. Ah well. Is a dern shame everything has to be discussed by Christians all of the time. I was going to log off anyhow. Have stuff to do.


The witches and pagan's a lot more welcome in this thread than we were in their pagan thread--so what's that sayin too?  The pagan kicked us out---LOL

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## Terry1

> what is your understanding of the word "pagan"?
> 
> the one that I accept.
> a person of a natural or earth based faith.
> 
> this seems reasonable enough for me. (all things considered)
> what is it, about this word. "pagan"
> that yanks your chain?
> 
> ...


Lol--here's what the word of God says about it.  I didn't write it--I'm just quoting it.  

"Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols." (1 Corinthians 12:1-2)

"Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of The Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both The Lord's table and the table of demons." (1 Corinthians 10:19-21)

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## Eagles' Wings

I've spent many years around new agers of a variety of beliefs.  I used to work in the health food industry.  My dear Eckist friend, would not kill a fly in the store because of her belief in reincarnation.  We did laugh about it.   A wiccan co-worker cast spells all the time.  She wanted to marry one of the guys in U2 and claimed power over him. 

They knew I was a Christian and we went round about with this and that and I ultimately was led by God, to let go.    I kept a safe distance and remained friendly.

Good to see a new thread and we can leave the other thread for what friendships they may need.

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## Natural Citizen

> The witches and pagan's a lot more welcome in this thread than we were in their pagan thread--so what's that sayin too?  The pagan kicked us out---LOL


Oh, I'm not a witch at all. Terry... Are you a good witch or a bad witch? Seriously, though, is an interesting subject given our inability to perceive deception in the most relevant of ways. We've been programmed by television, video games, movies...all sorts of stuff. And we certainly live in an age where technlogy makes the derndest things possible. One of my favorite quotes of all time came from a young lady while she was speaking at a conference. She said that _"the miracle of your mind is that you can see the world as it isn't."_   But we have to really try in today's world. We've become so desensitised.

I've got to scribble up a paper, though. I'll maybe check in later and see how it goes here.

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## Terry1

> Oh, I'm not a witch at all. Terry... Are you a good witch or a bad witch? Seriously, though, is an interesting subject given our inability to perceive deception in the most relevant of ways. We've been programmed by television, video games, movies...all sorts of stuff. And we certainly live in an age where technlogy makes the derndest things possible. One of my favorite quotes of all time came from a young lady while she was speaking at a conference. She said that the miracle of your mind is that you can see the world as it isn't. But we have to really try in today's world. We've become so desensitised.
> 
> I've got to scribble up a paper, though. I'll maybe check in later and see how it goes here.


I don't get it--are you defending something here for fear that it might offend someone?  God gave us His truth for a reason--it's to save souls.  If the message offends then it was meant to show them the right way to live and believe.  Sorry--I don't subscribe to the "dirt nap" theory.

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## Eagles' Wings

I was concerned to see so many Christians take the test about aura colors, in a previous thread.   I am getting more serious as I get older, and I don't think it is good to fiddle around with any of that stuff.   Keep it neat and clean and stay on the narrow road, in Christ.

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## Terry1

I'll keep reposting what Gods word says and the the witches and pagans can argue with God.


"Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols." (1 Corinthians 12:1-2)

 "Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of The Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both The Lord's table and the table of demons." (1 Corinthians 10:19-21)

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## HVACTech

> Lol--here's what the word of God says about it.  I didn't write it--I'm just quoting it.  
> 
> "Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols." (1 Corinthians 12:1-2)
> 
> "Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of The Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both The Lord's table and the table of demons." (1 Corinthians 10:19-21)


yeah, that was in a letter that Saul wrote to a church while he was in jail. 
Paul might not be so bad, but I have real issues with that King from England. 
anyhoo.
we Americans are supposed to be... respectful of Liberty abiding Religions. 
fair enough? 




> Sorry--I don't subscribe to the "dirt nap" theory.


enlighten me Love.

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## fr33

I'm debating whether I should approach this topic like some christians here approach other topics. 

Ahh $#@! it. Christ and his symbols are just as much idolatry to anyone who is not christian. If self sacrifice and child sacrifice inspires you, you might end up like Andrea Yates.

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## Terry1

> yeah, that was in a letter that Saul wrote to a church while he was in jail. 
> Paul might not be so bad, but I have real issues with that King from England. 
> anyhoo.
> we Americans are supposed to be... respectful of Liberty abiding Religions. 
> fair enough? 
> 
> 
> 
> enlighten me Love.


My Lord God comes first and before any other sort of liberty outside of my liberty in Christ Himself.   There is no liberty-god only liberty i_n_ Christ and those who follow Him.

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## Eagles' Wings

> I'm debating whether I should approach this topic like some christians here approach other topics. 
> 
> Ahh  Christ and his symbols are just as much idolatry to anyone who is not christian. If self sacrifice and child sacrifice inspires you, you might end up like Andrea Yates.


fr33, due to personal angst you were having about life, many of us have been praying for you, with your permission.  You have support from believers and non-believers.  Pretty cool, I'd say.

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## fr33

> fr33, due to personal angst you were having about life, many of us have been praying for you, with your permission.  You have support from believers and non-believers.  Pretty cool, I'd say.


Could you pray for people to leave me be and for others like you to do the same? Probably not, because the whole point of this topic is to do exactly the opposite.

If Christian's like Terry don't want to respect others' beliefs (example) then they should expect the same treatment.

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## Terry1

> Could you pray for people to leave me be and for others like you to do the same? Probably not, because the whole point of this topic is to do exactly the opposite.
> 
> If Christian's like Terry don't want to respect others' beliefs (example) then they should expect the same treatment.


What a load of BS--quit whining--all I did was quote the Bible--argue with God--not me.


"Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols." (1 Corinthians 12:1-2)

 "Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of The Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both The Lord's table and the table of demons." (1 Corinthians 10:19-21)

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## HVACTech

> My Lord God comes first and before any other sort of liberty outside of my liberty in Christ Himself.   There is no liberty-god only liberty i_n_ Christ and those who follow Him.


does this mean...  
you will not share your clean nap theory with me?   




> Sorry--I don't subscribe to the "dirt nap" theory.

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## presence

what about dousing?  Is that witchcraft?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eabZqjXtTI

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## Terry1

> does this mean...  
> you will not share your clean nap theory with me?


Sure love--what would you like to know.

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## jmdrake

I for one hope more pagans come to this forum.  Then they can see how loving we Christians are to each other and decide to become one.  What could possibly go wrong with this plan?

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## Terry1

> I for one hope more pagans come to this forum.  Then they can see how loving we Christians are to each other and decide to become one.  What could possibly go wrong with this plan?


Uh--just don't quote the word of God to them--they seem to get really pissed off when you do that.   Makes me question who the real haters are---how about you?

How can you witness the love of Christ when they call you a hater if you quote Him?

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## VIDEODROME

I honestly think this is an interesting approach to let two groups of like minded people kind of split up to give each other some space and just vent among themselves.  I wish this could continue, but I think there are to many bitter feelings or desires to argue over it.

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## Terry1

> I honestly think this is an interesting approach to let two groups of like minded people kind of split up to give each other some space and just vent among themselves.  I wish this could continue, but I think there are to many bitter feelings or desires to argue over it.


Right, that's why I started this thread, so I couldn't keep getting accused of hijacking the other one and pissing them off.  Hey--they're more than welcome in my thread--but they need to beware first because I will quote the word of God and that seems to set them off on a tangent of some kind no matter how polite one tries to be.   This is what the word of God is designed to do--cut like a two-edge sword through lies and deception.   I didn't write it like I said--all I've done is quote it and a couple of them have gone on the attack telling me to take my "Christian" crap elsewhere.  I wasn't feelin the love at all.

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## VIDEODROME

> Right, that's why I started this thread, so I couldn't keep getting accused of hijacking the other one and pissing them off.  Hey--they're more than welcome in my thread--but they need to beware first because I will quote the word of God and that seems to set them off on a tangent of some kind no matter how polite one tries to be.   This is what the word of God is designed to do--cut like a two-edge sword through lies and deception.   I didn't write it like I said--all I've done is quote it and a couple of them have gone on the attack telling me to take my "Christian" crap elsewhere.  I wasn't feelin the love at all.


I kind of wonder what this forum would be like if we could have more 'exlusive' threads.  Or topics declared to not invite dissent and debate.  I think that was JohnGalt's intention, not to have other religious special interests pounce on his thread, but to talk to people like Moosetraks as much as that might bother certain folks here.  So maybe moving the debate to another thread like this can remove all the interruptions for JohnGalt's thread.

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## Terry1

> I kind of wonder what this forum would be like if we could have more 'exlusive' threads.  Or topics declared to not invite dissent and debate.  I think that was JohnGalt's intention, not to have other religious special interests pounce on his thread, but to talk to people like Moosetraks as much as that might bother certain folks here.  So maybe moving the debate to another thread like this can remove all the interruptions for JohnGalt's thread.


Yes--you're right--that's why stopped posting in his thread.  I don't want to antagonize--I want to give the message of Christ and a warning about the spiritual dangers of what they're doing.  So hence--this thread in respect to JohnGalt.  Hope he's happier now.

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## fr33

> I for one hope more pagans come to this forum.  Then they can see how loving we Christians are to each other and decide to become one.  What could possibly go wrong with this plan?


 Pretty sure this is sarcasm.

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## Terry1

What bothers me is that more Christians aren't jumping in and proclaiming the love of Christ our Savior and deliverer from evil and how this can change their lives and eternal destinies towards winning souls for Christ instead of defending evil, but hey--God sees and knows who's really on His side too.

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## heavenlyboy34

/in b4 one of the usual characters claims icons are idols.  ~exits thread, stage left~

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## Terry1

> /in b4 one of the usual characters claims icons are idols.  ~exits thread, stage left~


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to heavenlyboy34 again.

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## Terry1

*crickets* LOL

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## Natural Citizen

> *crickets* LOL



I think that egos are the biggest roadblock to peace through religion. If we were to fragment all of the different fundamental faiths and religions and kind of step back and look at them in an _honest_ way, we are likely to discover that at their very core, they are all premised upon love, peace, harmony, unity, prosperity and a host of other similar characteristics. But that isn't what we see in these threads. What we have are egos. 

Heck, the op is practically irrelevant at this point.

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## Terry1

> I think that egos are the biggest roadblock to peace through religion. If we were to fragment all of the different fundamental faiths and religions and kind of step back and look at them in an _honest_ way, we are likely to discover that at their very core, they are all premised upon love, peace, harmony, unity, prosperity and a host of other similar characteristics. But that isn't what we see in these threads. What we have are egos. 
> 
> Heck, the op is practically irrelevant at this point.


Go back and read the posts I made in Johngalts thread and then come back and tell me if there was anything in any of those posts that wasn't meant to politely and respectfully lead them into truth.   I've gone back and read my posts--there was nothing in there that should have upset anyone unless they saw something there that struck a nerve of truth with them.

Nothing I wrote opposes the word of God and nothing I wrote was in any shape or form disrespectful at all.  This is what happens many times when Christians attempt to witness to those serving opposing spirits.  It's almost inevitable.  When one sees this--the only thing left to do is leave them to God and pray for them.

----------


## Natural Citizen

Nah. You're missing my point. We can't toss the love and whatnot out the window in favor of creating straw men in order to blame God or Satan. That's just a habit we have picked up in order to avoid accepting responsibility for ignoring all of those traits that we share at the core and _should_ be sharing.  Besides. I'm tired. I'm going to bed. Good night, Terry.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> I think that egos are the biggest roadblock to peace through religion. If we were to fragment all of the different fundamental faiths and religions and kind of step back and look at them in an _honest_ way, we are likely to discover that at their very core, they are all premised upon love, peace, harmony, unity, prosperity and a host of other similar characteristics. But that isn't what we see in these threads. What we have are egos. 
> 
> Heck, the op is practically irrelevant at this point.





> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Natural Citizen again.


Yeah, this is pretty much the impression I've gotten from my comparative religion studies.

----------


## Terry1

> Nah. You're missing my point. We can't toss the love and whatnot out the window in favor of creating straw men in order to blame God or Satan. That's just a habit we have picked up in order to avoid accepting responsibility for ignoring all of those traits that we share at the core and _should_ be sharing.  Besides. I'm tired. I'm going to bed. Good night, Terry.



I'm going to bed too after this last post, but what I wanted to say or ask is---do you really believe that after what Jesus told us that peace can happen "through religion"?  I mean, let's face it--religion is the reason for so many wars in all truth.  If this were ever even possible, don't you think that someone would have figured out how to do that by now?  

Then now we have thing's happening like the One World Religion and the COEXIST crowd.  The EU and United Nations taking over the Holy Lands in or to make peace between the religions.  God is not so amicable with this my friend--He has set the standard--not me or anyone else and has told us all what we need to do and what will happen as a result of these religions attempting to "coexist" and blend themselves into a One World Religion.  

Many people are going to be very surprised on that day.  Hugs

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Ah, Yes. Witchcraft is certainly interesting. Ah well. Is a dern shame everything has to be discussed by Christians all of the time. I was going to log off anyhow. Have stuff to do.


We've had a few interesting threads about Eastern religions.  Too bad we don't have any Buddhists around anymore.  I thought they were interesting.

----------


## jmdrake

> What bothers me is that more Christians aren't jumping in and proclaiming the love of Christ our Savior and deliverer from evil and how this can change their lives and eternal destinies towards winning souls for Christ instead of defending evil, but hey--God sees and knows who's really on His side too.


If we Christians have trouble proclaiming the love of Christ to each other then.......

----------


## Terry1

> If we Christians have trouble proclaiming the love of Christ to each other then.......


When you see a self-professed Christian running around defending and promoting paganism and witchcraft--what does the word of God tell you to do?

----------


## jmdrake

> When you see a self-professed Christian running around defending and promoting paganism and witchcraft--what does the word of God tell you to do?


I wasn't talking about this thread.  I was talking about threads prior to any recent pagan thread.  What does the word of God tell you about that?

----------


## Terry1

Are these scriptures offensive to Christians?

*"Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols." (1 Corinthians 12:1-2)

 "Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of The Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both The Lord's table and the table of demons." (1 Corinthians 10:19-21)*


So why do you think that they're offensive to pagans and witches then?  Did Paul show "religious tolerance"?  Did Jesus?  

There's two things that a Christian can do when they see another gone astray---

1.  They can correct them with the word of God letting them know that this is not the way God wants His children that He loves to live and believe for the good of their eternal souls.

2. Or they can simply pander to their deceptions by allowing them to continue believing as they do because they don't wish to offend their sensibilities or for the fear of being called a "hater"-"intolerant" or "unloving".

----------


## Terry1

> I wasn't talking about this thread.  I was talking about threads prior to any recent pagan thread.  What does the word of God tell you about that?


I don't understand then--this thread is about what the word of God teaches about those who defend or practice paganism and witchcraft.

----------


## jmdrake

> I don't understand then--this thread is about what the word of God teaches about those who defend or practice paganism and witchcraft.


Try to follow along.  I said the best way to teach pagans about Christianity is for Christians to show Christian love to each other.  Yeah I know why you started this thread.  I think it's counter productive.  It's like two parents who beat the hell out of each other on a daily basis saying to their son "Don't date that goth girl!  She's bad news!"  When parents show love to each other children are more apt to listen to their dating advice.  When Christians show love to each other pagans are more apt to listen to their advice on religion.  Neopagans who were once Christians more often than not left Christianity because they didn't see it working.  And we Christians on this forum, myself included, seem hell bent on proving them right.

----------


## Terry1

Seems to me here that some are simply ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and afraid to stand up for what they believe in for the fear of being labeled "intolerant" of others beliefs.  

The truth in today's times is vastly becoming an offense more and more and God's children are being persecuted and imprisoned for speaking it--no matter how respectful or polite they are.  The word of God offends those who do not subscribe to it and goes against what they're doing.

----------


## Terry1

> Try to follow along. .


What did you do right there with that statement?  What are you exhibiting?




> I said the best way to teach pagans about Christianity is for Christians to show Christian love to each other.


I hear you. 





> Yeah I know why you started this thread.  I think it's counter productive.  It's like two parents who beat the hell out of each other on a daily basis saying to their son "Don't date that goth girl!  She's bad news!"


Okay, so you think this thread is counter-productive, yet your fingers are frozen when you see one of your fellow (self-professed Christian) friends over in another thread defending witchcraft and paganism.  Yet you're here in this thread correcting me instead.   Yeah--I'm following you more than you realize too. lol




> When parents show love to each other children are more apt to listen to their dating advice.  When Christians show love to each other pagans are more apt to listen to their advice on religion.  Neopagans who were once Christians more often than not left Christianity because they didn't see it working.  And we Christians on this forum, myself included, seem hell bent on proving them right.


How do you define "showing love" to those defending the practice of witchcraft and paganism?  Tell me how you believe that should be done if you're a Christian and see what's happening.  Enlighten me here please.

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> Try to follow along.  I said the best way to teach pagans about Christianity is for Christians to show Christian love to each other.  Yeah I know why you started this thread.  I think it's counter productive.  It's like two parents who beat the hell out of each other on a daily basis saying to their son "Don't date that goth girl!  She's bad news!"  When parents show love to each other children are more apt to listen to their dating advice.  When Christians show love to each other pagans are more apt to listen to their advice on religion.  Neopagans who were once Christians more often than not left Christianity because they didn't see it working.  And we Christians on this forum, myself included, seem hell bent on proving them right.


This topic could be the title of another thread.

Christians have been accused of everything under the sun.  It's called persecution.  Our Lord told us to expect it.

If an unbeliever does not want to come to the Lord, it is NOT the fault of other Christians.  If they have heard the gospel and rejected the Lord, it is NOT the fault of other Christians.

People must STOP blaming the Church for their unbelief.   STOP blaming the minister or the priest or the people in the Church.  

When people blame Christians for their unbelief they become victims.  They must pray that the Lord will soften their hearts and lead them to Him.

----------


## jmdrake

> What did you do right there with that statement?  What are you exhibiting?


Common sense?




> I hear you.


Good.  




> Okay, so you think this thread is counter-productive, yet your fingers are frozen when you see one of your fellow (self-professed Christian) friends over in another thread defending witchcraft and paganism.  Yet you're here in this thread correcting me instead.   Yeah--I'm following you more than you realize too. lol


Good.  Follow me as I follow Christ.  I didn't focus on what others were doing in that thread.  Not even you.  I engaged JohnGalt the best why I know how which is by asking him questions about his faith to see what he really believed rather than going off half cocked based on my own preconceived notions about paganism.  I actually learned something.  Did you learn anything?




> How do you define "showing love" to those defending the practice of witchcraft and paganism?  Tell me how you believe that should be done if you're a Christian and see what's happening.  Enlighten me here please.


Again, the love stopped flowing (if it ever flowed) long before anyone said anything regarding paganism.

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> I don't understand then--this thread is about what the word of God teaches about those who defend or practice paganism and witchcraft.


Agreed.  Perhaps the reference to arguing adults telling their child about biblical truths, hit the hypocritical button for JM.  It is hypocritical, and it is part of what we struggle with as fallen humans, made new in Christ.   

I submit that you and I can agree to the premise in the OP.   I join you in prayer and hope that someone will see this thread and it will make sense to them.

----------


## Terry1

> Common sense?
> 
> 
> 
> Good.  
> 
> 
> 
> Good.  Follow me as I follow Christ.  I didn't focus on what others were doing in that thread.  Not even you.  I engaged JohnGalt the best why I know how which is by asking him questions about his faith to see what he really believed rather than going off half cocked based on my own preconceived notions about paganism.  I actually learned something.  Did you learn anything?
> ...


You mean to tell me here and now that when you entered that thread promoting paganism and witchcraft--you still had doubts about what was being promoted and defended over there to the point where you had to ask more questions just to be certain? 

I'll tell you what you're doing here jm, which is anything but promoting the love and truth of God--what you're promoting is descent and appealing to popularity here while discrediting me for attempting to quote the word of God that condemns evil and those who promote it.  You're idea of "love" is warped if you think pandering to evil is promoting the love of God.  

I have not seen you condemn paganism or witchcraft in one single post, but you're defending those who are promoting it implying that I'm not being loving enough to them by quoting Gods words and warnings about this.  Who's actually showing more love for these people--me or you?

----------


## jmdrake

> You mean to tell me here and now that when you entered that thread promoting paganism and witchcraft--you still had doubts about what was being promoted and defended over there to the point where you had to ask more questions just to be certain?


I didn't know what JohnGalt specifically believed.  For instance I asked him if he believed in Ragnarok.  I was intentional about that.  Ragnarok is particularly depressing belief and a good argument against the Norse belief system.  Turns out he doesn't believe Ragnarok is literal so that argument doesn't work.  Knowing what people particularly believe is something Paul used for his Mars Hill sermon.  Some pagans were actually reached by that.  I suppose you feel Paul should have just jumped up and down and yelled "Demons!  Demons!" While yelling and pointing at statues in the hopes of converting someone.  You clearly know more than Paul.  You know more than anybody actually.

----------


## moostraks

I am defending the right of the individual to speak and associate without being humiliated. It should have gone to a separate thread as this was easily done here. It is a liberty forum after all. 

As for defending pagans, I will, because it is a mixed bagged when it comes to practices. You have to get to know the individual and then if you have faith in the Spirit and the power of the Creator all a human can do is allow the Love to be and not channel their ego to do its bidding. He is greater than any man made construct.

I posted an article on the other spectrum of those called witches to enlighten others about the full spectrum of what has led to the hysteria and propaganda. I also posted some information about English word choices. Having walked the path I am trying to bring forth some explanation to improve dialogue and dispute misperceptions. 

Can people really have faith in Christianity being able to defeat darkness if threats are made that they are unreachable? How about the witness of repeated attempts at humiliation towards another Bible believer because of their past? It matters that one has a consistency in what they profess to be true.

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> I am defending the right of the individual to speak and associate without being humiliated. It should have gone to a separate thread as this was easily done here. It is a liberty forum after all. 
> 
> As for defending pagans, I will, because it is a mixed bagged when it comes to practices. You have to get to know the individual and then if you have faith in the Spirit and the power of the Creator all a human can do is allow the Love to be and not channel their ego to do its bidding. He is greater than any man made construct.
> 
> I posted an article on the other spectrum of those called witches to enlighten others about the full spectrum of what has led to the hysteria and propaganda. I also posted some information about English word choices. Having walked the path I am trying to bring forth some explanation to improve dialogue and dispute misperceptions. 
> 
> Can people really have faith in Christianity being able to defeat darkness if threats are made that they are unreachable? How about the witness of repeated attempts at humiliation towards another Bible believer because of their past? It matters that one has a consistency in what they profess to be true.


Moos, you want to improve others understanding of pagan practices and this thread is suggesting that there is no defense of these practices in the life of a Christian.  One can not believe in auras, as an understanding of self, and also believe what Christ says about the nature of mankind.  One can not read their horoscope and believe it will come to pass, and believe in the will of God.

The road is narrow, Moos.  And, filled with the guidance of the Spirit of Christ, for His own...and His Spirit alone.

----------


## Terry1

> I didn't know what JohnGalt specifically believed.  For instance I asked him if he believed in Ragnarok.  I was intentional about that.  Ragnarok is particularly depressing belief and a good argument against the Norse belief system.  Turns out he doesn't believe Ragnarok is literal so that argument doesn't work.  Knowing what people particularly believe is something Paul used for his Mars Hill sermon.  Some pagans were actually reached by that.  I suppose you feel Paul should have just jumped up and down and yelled "Demons!  Demons!" While yelling and pointing at statues in the hopes of converting someone.  You clearly know more than Paul.  You know more than anybody actually.


What is Gods own word telling you about "demons" and paganism?  He's telling you that the practice of witchcraft and paganism is a demonic practice and influenc.  What don't you understand there???  

*"Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of The Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both The Lord's table and the table of demons." (1 Corinthians 10:19-21)*

----------


## Ronin Truth

Apparently it's OK just as long as it's coming from ROMAN pagan heretic Pharisee anti-Christ pathological liar Paul.

----------


## jmdrake

> What is Gods own word telling you about "demons" and paganism?  He's telling you that the practice of witchcraft and paganism is a demonic practice and influenc.  What don't you understand there???  
> 
> *"Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of The Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both The Lord's table and the table of demons." (1 Corinthians 10:19-21)*


Right.  You're right.  The apostle Paul was wrong.  The apostle Paul wasn't showing Christian love on Mars hill.  On the day of judgement you will be able to condemn Paul.  

Acts 17:22-31
_22 So Paul stood in the midst of the [a]Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. 23 For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and [b]exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ 29 Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge [c]the world in righteousness [d]through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men [e]by raising Him from the dead.”_

Read and learn.  Paul preached to pagans in the midst of their altars.  He didn't call any of their altars "demons" and even declared that their altar to the "unknown god" was really to the living God.  There is a time and place for everything.

----------


## Terry1

> I am defending the right of the individual to speak and associate without being humiliated. It should have gone to a separate thread as this was easily done here. It is a liberty forum after all. 
> 
> As for defending pagans, I will, because it is a mixed bagged when it comes to practices. You have to get to know the individual and then if you have faith in the Spirit and the power of the Creator all a human can do is allow the Love to be and not channel their ego to do its bidding. He is greater than any man made construct.
> 
> I posted an article on the other spectrum of those called witches to enlighten others about the full spectrum of what has led to the hysteria and propaganda. I also posted some information about English word choices. Having walked the path I am trying to bring forth some explanation to improve dialogue and dispute misperceptions. 
> 
> Can people really have faith in Christianity being able to defeat darkness if threats are made that they are unreachable? How about the witness of repeated attempts at humiliation towards another Bible believer because of their past? It matters that one has a consistency in what they profess to be true.


I'm quoting the Apostle Paul here and what don't you understand here than makes you think that defending witchcraft and paganism is still acceptable in the eyes of our Lord?

*"Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of The Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both The Lord's table and the table of demons." (1 Corinthians 10:19-21)*

----------


## jmdrake

> I'm quoting the Apostle Paul here and what don't you understand here than makes you think that defending witchcraft and paganism is still acceptable in the eyes of our Lord?
> 
> *"Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of The Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both The Lord's table and the table of demons." (1 Corinthians 10:19-21)*


And I quoted the Apostle Paul in Act 17.  His approach when preaching to pagans on Mars Hill is 180 degrees from yours.  What do you know that he didn't?

----------


## Terry1

> Right.  You're right.  The apostle Paul was wrong.  The apostle Paul wasn't showing Christian love on Mars hill.  On the day of judgement you will be able to condemn Paul.  
> 
> Acts 17:22-31
> _22 So Paul stood in the midst of the [a]Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. 23 For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and [b]exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ 29 Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge [c]the world in righteousness [d]through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men [e]by raising Him from the dead.”_
> 
> Read and learn.  Paul preached to pagans in the midst of their altars.  He didn't call any of their altars "demons" and even declared that their altar to the "unknown god" was really to the living God.  There is a time and place for everything.



You and moos both are attempting to use Gods own words to refute Himself in order to justify those who subscribe to the occult practices of witchcraft and paganism.  That's not "love"--that is a lie you're promoting and placing yourself in danger by doing so.  Love is revealing the truth to them because God loves them.  If it offends them--it was meant to bring them to repentance understanding what the consequences are for doing these things.  Fear of the Lord is wisdom first.

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> Apparently it's OK just as long as it's coming from ROMAN pagan heretic Pharisee anti-Christ pathological liar Paul.


Aren't you busy enough, yanking Sola's chain?   You aren't really here to discuss Paul, are you?

----------


## Terry1

> And I quoted the Apostle Paul in Act 17.  His approach when preaching to pagans on Mars Hill is 180 degrees from yours.  What do you know that he didn't?


What you're attempting to do here is prove that I wasn't loving enough by stating the truth that witchcraft and paganism is a demonic influence.  So if telling them that they're serving demons is not being loving enough--I guess Gods word isn't good enough or loving enough for you either is it?  I won't even reply to this nonsense of yours any more--any one with eyes can see what you're doing here now.

----------


## jmdrake

> What you're attempting to do here is prove that I wasn't loving enough by stating the truth that witchcraft and paganism is a demonic influence.


No.  What I'm doing is pointing out that there are better ways to reach pagans than shouting "Demon!  Demon!"  I think Paul knew what he was doing.  Maybe you don't.  I didn't bring motivation into it.  The point that I made about love is that *Christians in this forum do a poor job showing it to each other in general*!  Don't lose sight of that point.  It's got nothing to do with how you do or do not address paganism.

----------


## jmdrake

> You and moos both are attempting to use Gods own words to refute Himself in order to justify those who subscribe to the occult practices of witchcraft and paganism.


LOL.  No.  I'm saying that your evangelical methods don't conform to Paul's.  But maybe you know better.  How many pagans have you converted as compared to him?

----------


## Terry1

> No.  What I'm doing is pointing out that there are better ways to reach pagans than shouting "Demon!  Demon!"  I think Paul knew what he was doing.  Maybe you don't.  I didn't bring motivation into it.  The point that I made about love is that *Christians in this forum do a poor job showing it to each other in general*!  Don't lose sight of that point.  It's got nothing to do with how you do or do not address paganism.


Stop creating a strawman--I never "shouted" at anyone--go back and read what I wrote to them both again.  I was polite and respectful.  What pissed them off was the fact that I even mentioned it was a demonic practice and it is.  What's your argument now.  I haven't seen you condemn paganism or witchcraft yet.  All I've seen you do is defend those who are practicing and defending it themselves.  Yeah--I gotcha.  I have nothing further to say to you either.

----------


## Eagles' Wings

"Before they went into the Promised Land, they were given strict warnings and guidelines by God the Father as to what they could do and what they could not do. And one of those warnings was about not engaging in a lot of the pagan practices of the people who were already inhabiting parts of the Promised Land.

Many of these people were evil and had horrible practices of sacrificing their own children to appease what they thought were gods. Some of these people were involved in heavy occult type activity, and God was very strict in the warnings that He gave His own people in that they were not to engage in this type of evil activity.

The warnings that God gave His people back then still apply to all of us in this day and age. The Bible says that God does not change, and this includes all of His ways and all of His warnings.

The trouble is that most Christians are not aware of what some of these warnings are because they have not spent much time reading and studying from the Old Testament."

Article continues here:
http://www.bible-knowledge.com/dangers-of-the-occult/

----------


## moostraks

> Moos, you want to improve others understanding of pagan practices and this thread is suggesting that there is no defense of these practices in the life of a Christian.  One can not believe in auras, as an understanding of self, and also believe what Christ says about the nature of mankind.  One can not read their horoscope and believe it will come to pass, and believe in the will of God.
> 
> The road is narrow, Moos.  And, filled with the guidance of the Spirit of Christ, for His own...and His Spirit alone.


I just think we come at our position with different knowledge and experiences. I don't think calling oneself a Christian means we are one as I believe the title is really to be bestowed upon those who walked and live the path by a power greater than oneself. For some pagan practices are all about tuning awareness to the world made by the Creator and seeing the energy in all and through all and being appreciative for all that is. Just like there are differing degrees of those who say they are Christian there are huge differences on being pagan and there isn't even a text to use to ascertain any measure of conformity. 

I hear what you are saying on the horoscopes and auras. Just because one is pagan doesn't imply use of either. If you don't make an effort to truly know yourself you are rarely going to be able to grow away from negative habits. This requires serious introspection and honesty to oneself not newspaper fillers and generic soul candy. 

I have faith in a Spirit who Loves and is Wisdom. Those who say they are Christian often drive people away and show little faith in what they profess to be true making it unreasonable to expect those cast out to take anything seriously about what is being said at them.

----------


## Terry1

> LOL.  No.  I'm saying that your evangelical methods don't conform to Paul's.  But maybe you know better.  How many pagans have you converted as compared to him?


Probably more than you ever will for sure. Lol  Why do you think that the Apostles were tortured and martyred--because they never offended anyone with the truth?  They cut off Paul's head too--after they hung Jesus on a cross for it.  There's just a lot of cowards in Christ--I have no idea what God has in store for them either--I don't want to know.

----------


## Terry1

> "Before they went into the Promised Land, they were given strict warnings and guidelines by God the Father as to what they could do and what they could not do. And one of those warnings was about not engaging in a lot of the pagan practices of the people who were already inhabiting parts of the Promised Land.
> 
> Many of these people were evil and had horrible practices of sacrificing their own children to appease what they thought were gods. Some of these people were involved in heavy occult type activity, and God was very strict in the warnings that He gave His own people in that they were not to engage in this type of evil activity.
> 
> The warnings that God gave His people back then still apply to all of us in this day and age. The Bible says that God does not change, and this includes all of His ways and all of His warnings.
> 
> The trouble is that most Christians are not aware of what some of these warnings are because they have not spent much time reading and studying from the Old Testament."
> 
> Article continues here:
> http://www.bible-knowledge.com/dangers-of-the-occult/


Excellent post Louise.  This is where we come together and find common ground in Christ.  I commend you for standing up for the Gospel of Jesus Christ and I'm sure God sees this too.  In the little things where we have differed--we are far-far more stronger for bearing the burden of the truth in Christ.  

Regards to you sister--salute and well done.

----------


## moostraks

> I'm quoting the Apostle Paul here and what don't you understand here than makes you think that defending witchcraft and paganism is still acceptable in the eyes of our Lord?
> 
> *"Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of The Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both The Lord's table and the table of demons." (1 Corinthians 10:19-21)*



The part where you know nothing of the person to whom you are talking at because to do so implies some lack of love or faith. Reread what you typed of those verses. How do you know whom they were talking to unless you were a party within the conversation? How do YOU know they were idols being worshipped as such? This is why we should save our judgement for the fruits of the Spirit or spirit as the case may be. Set up rules for your church and those whom you wish to partake in fellowship with but save all the measuring sticks for those who are attempting to conform to claim title of participation in your church.

I defend those who take a different path because I know how destructive churches can be and how necessary it may be to walk away to hear the Spirit again because of all the dark energy being harbored and promoted by those who say they are Christian. Owning a Bible or being a member of a church does not mean one has Love. The only measurement by which we can judge the Spirit is by its fruits. 

~~~peace

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Aren't you busy enough, yanking Sola's chain? You aren't really here to discuss Paul, are you?


Nah, that's only a short term new part time pastime.  Takes very little time at all.

I thought I was joining in on the pagans worship Bible discussion.

----------


## jmdrake

> Probably more than you ever will for sure. Lol  Why do you think that the Apostles were tortured and martyred--because they never offended anyone with the truth?  They cut off Paul's head too--after they hung Jesus on a cross for it.  There's just a lot of cowards in Christ--I have no idea what God has in store for them either--I don't want to know.


Engage in self justification all you want.  But your evangelism method doesn't conform with Paul's when it comes to reaching out to pagans. I'm sorry that my pointing that out offends you.

----------


## Terry1

> The part where you know nothing of the person to whom you are talking at because to do so implies some lack of love or faith. Reread what you typed of those verses. How do you know whom they were talking to unless you were a party within the conversation? How do YOU know they were idols being worshipped as such? This is why we should save our judgement for the fruits of the Spirit or spirit as the case may be. Set up rules for your church and those whom you wish to partake in fellowship with but save all the measuring sticks for those who are attempting to conform to claim title of participation in your church.
> 
> I defend those who take a different path because I know how destructive churches can be and how necessary it may be to walk away to hear the Spirit again because of all the dark energy being harbored and promoted by those who say they are Christian. Owning a Bible or being a member of a church does not mean one has Love. The only measurement by which we can judge the Spirit is by its fruits. 
> 
> ~~~peace


I tire of seeing you condemn the whole of Christendom to support your defense of witchcraft and paganism.  I have learned to filter through your crap lies and self-deception to simply getting down to the nitty gritty with you.  

I'm actually loving you more now than those who claim to be your partners in crimes against Christ here.  When will you learn that you can not mix this defense and endearing compassion you have for "the old crone witch with her familiar" which btw--a familiar is a demon.  Yeah--those cute little animals  that follow their hosts around as in Harry Potter and his owl.  Is that what your familiar is moos--an owl?  Is that why you use that in your avatar too?

Let me say this and be painfully honest here.  Oil and water do not mix.  Oil is the word of God and water is the evil that want to appear good to deceive people.  You have allowed yourself to be deceived and the truth is that no one can confess Christ and run around telling everyone else that they're a Christian who supports and defends the practice of witchcraft and paganism.  You're either one or the other.  This to me explains a lot of your irrational wavering behavior in here about what church you endorse.  You have condemned Christianity far more than you have supported it as far as I've noticed.

You have to choose a side moos--because this path your headed down is leading you nowhere but lost.  It's time to either stand for Christ or denounce Him all together.  A house divided can not and will not stand.

I do not hate you, nor do I condemn you--you have condemned yourself--no one needs to do that for you.  Only you can make the decision and change the way you think and believe.  It's up to you to decide and time is running out--God gives us space and time to repent, but there comes a time and only God knows when a heart and mind will not return unto Him and they are cut off permanently--only God can judge that in a person.  Hebrews 6:4 

This is serious business because none of us truly know if we have tomorrow or not.  Choose wisely--choose today for the sake of your eternal soul.  This is good advice to anyone.  Take or make of it what you will.  Tic-tock---

----------


## jmdrake

> Stop creating a strawman--I never "shouted" at anyone--go back and read what I wrote to them both again.  I was polite and respectful.  What pissed them off was the fact that I even mentioned it was a demonic practice and it is.  What's your argument now.  I haven't seen you condemn paganism or witchcraft yet.  All I've seen you do is defend those who are practicing and defending it themselves.  Yeah--I gotcha.  I have nothing further to say to you either.


How many times did Paul use the word "demon" in his Mars Hill sermon?  Oh that's right.  None.  Instead he found something in their own practices that he could use to point the pagans to Christ.  And guess what?  It worked!  One of your fellow EO Christians, whom I will not name since he doesn't want to be involved in your squabbles, pointed out in another thread how the Russian Orthodox church reached out to the Inuit by using their own symbols to point the to Christ rather than saying "That totem pole is demonic!"  Sola_Fide attacked him and your church for doing that.  I guess you're more like SF than you know.

----------


## Terry1

> I hear you loud and clear. *Felt the same way about what I saw in the churches and was a solitary green witch for a few years. I never could commit to a specific cultural adaptation so that the god(dess) energy would have a name. It was liberating to not constantly have someone breathing down my neck telling me how I was doing spirituality all wrong.* How if I just prayed harder then maybe I would be forgiven enough for not speaking or walking as those ridiculing me did and then I could be just like them, forgiven and washed in the blood. Funny thing is the Christians I have known were much more barbaric in their philosophy than those of the pagan community I knew.
> 
> * I have always had a special place in my heart for the crone. The old cottage witch healer ostracized from the village surrounding by nature and the creatures that inhabit it with a kindred soul of her familiar to keep her company. The amusing knowledge of the fact that it was these outcasts many turned to for her wisdom of healing herbs when someone was ill or hurt.* 
> 
>  Excellent list of characteristics to strive towards embodying. I think we are so isolated from our cultural roots in society today that many find themselves needing to walk backwards in time before they comprehend their own place in life, to live life deeper, close to those whose hearts beat the same blood, to walk daily and not use our perceptions of faith as a meter stick to judge others but to inspire ourselves instead.
> 
>  So are you a solitary?


Here you go moos--an example of what you're endorsing and defending.  A "familiar" that followed the witch is a demon.  This is what you're defending---demons.  Is that really what you have chosen to believe and the path you want to take here?

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> I just think we come at our position with different knowledge and experiences. I don't think calling oneself a Christian means we are one as I believe the title is really to be bestowed upon those who walked and live the path by a power greater than oneself. For some pagan practices are all about tuning awareness to the world made by the Creator and seeing the energy in all and through all and being appreciative for all that is. Just like there are differing degrees of those who say they are Christian there are huge differences on being pagan and there isn't even a text to use to ascertain any measure of conformity. 
> 
> I hear what you are saying on the horoscopes and auras. Just because one is pagan doesn't imply use of either. If you don't make an effort to truly know yourself you are rarely going to be able to grow away from negative habits. This requires serious introspection and honesty to oneself not newspaper fillers and generic soul candy. 
> 
> I have faith in a Spirit who Loves and is Wisdom. Those who say they are Christian often drive people away and show little faith in what they profess to be true making it unreasonable to expect those cast out to take anything seriously about what is being said at them.


Yes, the power greater than ourselves is the Holy Trinity.  The Trinity will have no other gods before Them.  I take that more and more seriously as I age.  Rooting out the idols in our lives, sin, evil, is constant and only possible through the power of the Holy Trinity.   I do not wish to mix other forces with the force and power of the Holy Trinity.

----------


## Terry1

> How many times did Paul use the word "demon" in his Mars Hill sermon?  Oh that's right.  None.  Instead he found something in their own practices that he could use to point the pagans to Christ.  And guess what?  It worked!  One of your fellow EO Christians, whom I will not name since he doesn't want to be involved in your squabbles, pointed out in another thread how the Russian Orthodox church reached out to the Inuit by using their own symbols to point the to Christ rather than saying "That totem pole is demonic!"  Sola_Fide attacked him and your church for doing that.  I guess you're more like SF than you know.


Truth and love are synonymous in Christ.  They were all tortured and killed for it--it offended people and only those who saw the truth through their fears were the ones who were saved by that same truth and then learned to love God for it.  Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.  When will you realize this?

You're serving satan right now for attempting to condemn me for telling the truth--where's the love jm?  You are no friend to Christ at this time either.  What are you defending and condemning here.  Ask yourself.  Start standing up for the truth--it's a lot easier to look in the mirror that way too.

----------


## jmdrake

> Truth and love are synonymous in Christ.  They were all tortured and killed for it--it offended people and only those who saw the truth through their fears were the ones who were saved by that same truth and then learned to love God for it.  Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.  When will you realize this?


How many times did Paul use the word demon in his Mars Hill sermon?  Did Paul not love the pagans by "hiding the truth" from them?  Answer those questions if you have the courage to do so.

----------


## moostraks

> I tire of seeing you condemn the whole of Christendom to support your defense of witchcraft and paganism.  I have learned to filter through your crap lies and self-deception to simply getting down to the nitty gritty with you.  
> 
> I'm actually loving you more now than those who claim to be your partners in crimes against Christ here.  When will you learn that you can not mix this defense and endearing compassion you have for "the old crone witch with her familiar" which btw--a familiar is a demon.  Yeah--those cute little animals  that follow their hosts around as in Harry Potter and his owl.  Is that what your familiar is moos--an owl?  Is that why you use that in your avatar too?
> 
> Let me say this and be painfully honest here.  Oil and water do not mix.  Oil is the word of God and water is the evil that want to appear good to deceive people.  You have allowed yourself to be deceived and the truth is that no one can confess Christ and run around telling everyone else that they're a Christian who supports and defends the practice of witchcraft and paganism.  You're either one or the other.  This to me explains a lot of your irrational wavering behavior in here about what church you endorse.  You have condemned Christianity far more than you have supported it as far as I've noticed.
> 
> You have to choose a side moos--because this path your headed down is leading you nowhere but lost.  It's time to either stand for Christ or denounce Him all together.  A house divided can not and will not stand.
> 
> I do not hate you, nor do I condemn you--you have condemned yourself--no one needs to do that for you.  Only you can make the decision and change the way you think and believe.  It's up to you to decide and time is running out--God gives us space and time to repent, but there comes a time and only God knows when a heart and mind will not return unto Him and they are cut off permanently--only God can judge that in a person.  Hebrews 6:4 
> ...


Fear, insults, self promotion, self justification...you don't know me and your opinion is based upon not even finding it necessary to know a person. I cannot take anything you are saying here seriously. The ignorance by which you press forward with your accusations against me is mind numbing. Cui Bono? I have a path and Faith. You, like some others,  command other people to comply with your demands lest they be shamed and humiliated. This method drives people from what you profess to be the goal. Yet, you, like others have a ream of justifications for the fruit you are being judged by.

----------


## moostraks

> Here you go moos--an example of what you're endorsing and defending.  A "familiar" that followed the witch is a demon.  This is what you're defending---demons.  Is that really what you have chosen to believe and the path you want to take here?


So you know what I meant by that term because how? You asked me or told me what _you_ mean by the term and thus I am to be shamed for your demons?

----------


## Terry1

> Fear, insults, self promotion, self justification...you don't know me and your opinion is based upon not even finding it necessary to know a person. I cannot take anything you are saying here seriously. The ignorance by which you press forward with your accusations against me is mind numbing. Cui Bono? I have a path and Faith. You, like some others,  command other people to comply with your demands lest they be shamed and humiliated. This method drives people from what you profess to be the goal. Yet, you, like others have a ream of justifications for the fruit you are being judged by.


No one can drive you from anything you didn't want to be driven from in the first place.  I don't accept this lame excuse for believing the way you do.  This isn't on me--I've done nothing but tell you the truth--you have continually rejected it on a regular basis and not just from me, but from other Christians here as well that have tried to witness nothing but the love of Christ to you.  You have a history of this in this forum.

----------


## jmdrake

> No one can drive you from anything you didn't want to be driven from in the first place.  I don't accept this lame excuse for believing the way you do.  This isn't on me--I've done nothing but tell you the truth--you have continually rejected it on a regular basis and not just from me, but from other Christians here as well that have tried to witness nothing but the love of Christ to you.  You have a history of this in this forum.


Yes.  Telling someone you understand why her husband would try to kill her is "nothing but the love of Christ."  SMH!

Edit: And before you come back with "Well you aren't perfect either jm", I acknowledged that early in this thread.

----------


## Terry1

> Yes.  Telling someone you understand why her husband would try to kill her is "nothing but the love of Christ."  SMH!


This is your desperation speaking now.  Using past blunders as a weapon against the truth being spoken now still does not change the truth.  You're not on the side of Christ right now jm or are you practicing that "love" you've been preaching all the while.  You're siding with the enemies of God is actually what you doing here.  Is that hole not deep enough yet--keep digging then--this is on you--not me.  You are your own worst enemy at this moment.

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> Yes.  Telling someone you understand why her husband would try to kill her is "nothing but the love of Christ."  SMH!
> 
> Edit: And before you come back with "Well you aren't perfect either jm", I acknowledged that early in this thread.


You asked to have that thread closed.  Let it be closed, JM.   What poor judgment to even put that back in print.  Everyone is trying to move on.

----------


## jmdrake

> This is your desperation speaking now.  Using past blunders as a weapon against the truth being spoken now still does not change the truth.  You're not on the side of Christ right now jm or are you practicing that "love" you've been preaching all the while.  You're siding with the enemies of God is actually what you doing here.  Is that hole not deep enough yet--keep digging then--this is on you--not me.  You are your own worst enemy at this moment.


What you call desperation a rational person calls honesty.  You made the false claim that you had shown "Nothing but Christian love" to moostracks.  That is a lie.  You know that is a lie.  You can't come back and say that it isn't a lie by saying "Well I've made mistakes."  I'm divorced.  I made mistakes in my marriage.  So did my ex.  I don't go around kicking myself over my mistakes but I don't act all arrogant and pretend I was a prefect husband either.  Quit trying to lift yourself up Terry.

----------


## Terry1

> You asked to have that thread closed.  Let it be closed, JM.   What poor judgment to even put that back in print.  Everyone is trying to move on.


Thank you Louise.  Yes--we've all made mistakes.  jm attempting to use that as weapon in support of his argument is building a starwman here in light of what's being discussed currently.

----------


## jmdrake

> You asked to have that thread closed.  Let it be closed, JM.   What poor judgment to even put that back in print.  Everyone is trying to move on.


Moving on != lying.  You can't be self righteous, pretend you haven't done anything wrong ever and then say "Well that's just poor judgment in the past."

----------


## Terry1

> What you call desperation a rational person calls honesty.  You made the false claim that you had shown "Nothing but Christian love" to moostracks.  That is a lie.  You know that is a lie.  You can't come back and say that it isn't a lie by saying "Well I've made mistakes."  I'm divorced.  I made mistakes in my marriage.  So did my ex.  I don't go around kicking myself over my mistakes but I don't act all arrogant and pretend I was a prefect husband either.  Quit trying to lift yourself up Terry.


You keep trying to derail this discussion by making it personal based upon things that were said and done in other threads and disputes.  Please stick to the topic--what does the bible say about the practice of witchcraft and paganism.  Thanks

----------


## jmdrake

> Thank you Louise.  Yes--we've all made mistakes.  jm attempting to use that as weapon in support of his argument is building a starwman here in light of what's being discussed currently.


Terry.  You lied.  You know it and everyone else does.  The lie was uncalled for.  If you want to start fresh and show nothing but Christian love going forward than fine.  But don't pretend that's what you've always done.  I own up to my mistakes.  I'm just asking you to do the same.

----------


## Terry1

> Moving on != lying.  You can't be self righteous, pretend you haven't done anything wrong ever and then say "Well that's just poor judgment in the past."


Please stick to the topic jm and stop attempting to use past disputes to support your argument.  Louise and I have made peace here--you should be endorsing all of that love instead of attempting to instigate more of the same past disputes.

----------


## jmdrake

> You keep trying to derail this discussion by making it personal based upon things that were said and done in other threads and disputes.  Please stick to the topic--what does the bible say about the practice of witchcraft and paganism.  Thanks


The topic really should be "How to reach pagans."  Paul did that by not going into everything the Bible teaches about witchcraft and paganism.  You lack the courage to address that so you tried to turn this into a person attack on me.  Now if you wish to show courage and address why you think your method of witnessing to pagans is better than Paul's then we can talk about that.  Why do you think your method of witnessing is better than Paul's?

----------


## Terry1

> Terry.  You lied.  You know it and everyone else does.  The lie was uncalled for.  If you want to start fresh and show nothing but Christian love going forward than fine.  But don't pretend that's what you've always done.  I own up to my mistakes.  I'm just asking you to do the same.


Again--please stick to the topic--what does the Bible teach about the practice and defense of witchcraft and paganism?

----------


## jmdrake

> Again--please stick to the topic--what does the Bible teach about the practice and defense of witchcraft and paganism?


The topic really should be "How to reach pagans." Paul did that by not going into everything the Bible teaches about witchcraft and paganism. You lack the courage to address that so you tried to turn this into a person attack on me. Now if you wish to show courage and address why you think your method of witnessing to pagans is better than Paul's then we can talk about that. Why do you think your method of witnessing is better than Paul's?

Edit: And the reason the topic should be "How to reach pagans" is because reaching the lost is supposed to be the primary goal of a Christian.  So if Paul's method is better than yours, and I have every reason to believe that it is, then following that method should be your prime directive if you are a Christian.

----------


## Terry1

> The topic really should be "How to reach pagans."  Paul did that by not going into everything the Bible teaches about witchcraft and paganism.  You lack the courage to address that so you tried to turn this into a person attack on me.  Now if you wish to show courage and address why you think your method of witnessing to pagans is better than Paul's then we can talk about that.  Why do you think your method of witnessing is better than Paul's?


Stop disputing the messenger and try focusing on the message.

----------


## jmdrake

> Stop disputing the messenger and try focusing on the message.


Stop focusing on the message and focus on the purpose of the message....reaching the lost.

----------


## phill4paul

I'm failing to see a state of tranquillity or quiet continuing in time toward completion of a body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices in this thread.

----------


## moostraks

> No one can drive you from anything you didn't want to be driven from in the first place.  I don't accept this lame excuse for believing the way you do.  This isn't on me--I've done nothing but tell you the truth--you have continually rejected it on a regular basis and not just from me, but from other Christians here as well that have tried to witness nothing but the love of Christ to you.  You have a history of this in this forum.


You aren't even being Scriptural here because otherwise how can someone be made twice the son of hell by bad teaching? You don't even know what I believe so why do you think you can shame me? As for the measure of the truth you espouse, you are judged by your fruits as well as am I. Apparently your self justification for perpetual carping about other's history is?

Oh and re: familiars




> Historically speaking, during the days of the Inquisitions, familiars were said to be given to witches by the devil. They were, in essence, small demons which could be sent out to do a witchs bidding. Although cats, especially black ones, were the favored vessel for such a demon to inhabit, dogs, toads, and other small animals were sometimes used.
> 
> According to the ancient Witchcraft Act of 1604, it was a felony to: consult, covenant with, entertain, employ, feed or reward any evil or wicked spirit to or for any intent or purpose, an act that The Witch-Finder General Matthew Hopkins used with zeal when extracting confessions. Hopkins also used the Malleus Malificarum, the so-called Inquisitors Handbook. Though the Malleus offered no instruction concerning familiars in the interrogation and trial of witches, it did acknowledge that an animal familiar always works with the witch in everything. As such, it advises the inquisitor never to leave a witch prisoner alone, or the devil will cause him or her to kill themselves, accomplished through a familiar. With this in mind, Hopkins would tie the witch up in a cell and leave them alone, while watching secretly for their arrival. If so much of as a fly or beetle approached them, it was deemed proof enough that they were indeed witches...
> 
> Animal familiars are fellow travelers on this earthly plane. Nothing more. Nothing less. Certain spirits will return to us time and again because we are as familiar to them as they are to us. We are drawn together. Perhaps they are connected to a higher existence and were sent here to keep an eye on us and keep us company. Perhaps they are spirits which were drawn to us and our myriad possibilities. Or perhaps theyre just exceptionally aware animals. It is, after all, only human arrogance that reduces intellect and reasoning to traits only humans can possess, however much evidence might accumulate which proves such acumen rather common in the animal kingdom. Weve known human beings who were dumb as rocks. Is it really that much of a stretch to conceive that there might be exceptionally bright and intelligent animals?
> 
> In the end, it is perhaps quite possible that like attracts like. Just as we are invariably drawn to associations with other people that we cannot explain and which in hindsight seem unlikely, if not miraculous, so too are we drawn to certain familiar spirits, and them to us. It doesnt have to be jotted down in some moldy old book as supernatural and profound. Just as you simply are, so they simply are. Youre fellow travelers on the same dusty road, and should be glad for the company. Dont over-think it.
> 
> As Ive been writing this, my current familiar, a cat named Hannibal, has been watching me type. He doesnt normally take much interest while Im at the computer desk, preferring to sun himself in the sun through the bay window. But now he watches me with interest, and perhaps a hint of amusement. Maybe he doesnt know exactly what Im writing, but he knows that Ive been writing this with him in mind. Or perhaps hes just hungry. I may never know. Humans have a need to explain things which cannot be explained, rather than just accept the obvious on its own merits...


http://www.pagancentric.org/what-is-an-animal-familiar/

Decent enough write up on the myriad of modern opinions regarding a familiar. I am in the intelligent creature companion with its own soul camp fwiw...

----------


## Terry1

> Stop focusing on the message and focus on the purpose of the message....reaching the lost.


You've spent more energy attacking than you have correcting those practicing and endorsing witchcraft and paganism.  So you've well proven that you're a hero for "religious tolerance"---now try proving that you're a hero for Christ.

----------


## jmdrake

> You've spent more energy attacking than you have correcting those practicing and endorsing witchcraft and paganism.  So you've well proven that you're a hero for "religious tolerance"---now try proving that you're a hero for Christ.


I followed Paul's method of evangelism.  You didn't.  I guess that means you don't feel Paul is a "hero for Christ."

----------


## jmdrake

> I for one hope more pagans come to this forum.  Then they can see how loving we Christians are to each other and decide to become one.  What could possibly go wrong with this plan?





> I'm failing to see a state of tranquillity or quiet continuing in time toward completion of a body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices in this thread.


It's not for the lack of trying.  Apparently Christians calling for Christians to actually be Christian *to each other* is too much for some people.

----------


## Terry1

> I follow Paul's method of evangelism.  You didn't.  I guess that means you don't feel Paul is a "hero for Christ."  /thread.


You've done nothing at all, but attack me personally in this thread.  I think Paul did a bit more than that--hence the reason his head was cut off.

----------


## jmdrake

> You've done nothing at all, but attack me personally in this thread.  I think Paul did a bit more than that--hence the reason his head was cut off.


Yes.  Because telling Christians to love each other and maybe pagans might be impressed and like our religion is an attack.    I didn't even single you out in that post.  The Bible is true.  The guilty flee where no man pursues.

Edit: Further in the thread JohnGalt was participating in I engaged him in a discussion about his religion in the hopes of pointing out why Christianity is better.  He's not even participating in this thread so for you to think that anything you say or I say in it is at all evangelism is just silly.

----------


## Terry1

> Yes.  Because telling Christians to love each other and maybe pagans might be impressed and like our religion is an attack.    I didn't even single you out in that post.  The Bible is true.  The guilty flee where no man pursues.
> 
> Edit: Further in the thread JohnGalt was participating in I engaged him in a discussion about his religion in the hopes of pointing out why Christianity is better.  He's not even participating in this thread so for you to think that anything you say or I say in it is at all evangelism is just silly.


Then why aren't you over there doing what you say was your intention instead of stabbing Christ in the back by condemning His message and the person giving it here in this thread.  

Then go over to that thread and show everyone how it's done--I haven't seen you put forth the effort as of yet.  Talk is cheap ya know.   Go on now--be that man in Christ you're espousing to everyone over here.  It's only a click away.

----------


## phill4paul

> It's not for the lack of trying.  Apparently Christians calling for Christians to actually be Christian *to each other* is too much for some people.


  You've been accused of being a "hero for tolerance" in this thread. The truth, plainly, is that there can be no Peace through Religion without a level of tolerance. There can be only discord when opposing belief systems cannot find a common ground. Peace through Religion may work on a personal level if one is intractable. It cannot work on a common level.

----------


## jmdrake

> Then why aren't you over there doing what you say was your intention instead of stabbing Christ in the back by condemning His message and the person giving it here in this thread.


Are you really that dense?  *I WAS OVER THERE UNTIL JOHNGALT STOPPED PARTICIPATING!*  How do I have a discussion with a pagan that you already ran off?

----------


## Ronin Truth

> It's not for the lack of trying. Apparently Christians calling for Christians to actually be Christian *to each other* is too much for some people.


The Satanic curse of state hijacked religions?  You see much Jesus in there?

----------


## Terry1

> You've been accused of being a "hero for tolerance" in this thread. The truth, plainly, is that there can be no Peace through Religion without a level of tolerance. Their can be only discord when opposing belief systems cannot find a common ground. Peace through Religion may work on a personal level if one is intractable. It cannot work on a common level.


Let's see jm walk the walk.  I want to see how he witnesses the love of Christ and the message of God about what the Bible says about witchcraft and paganism to them.  Seriously--let's all see how it's done as jm demonstrates this--after all--he's done such a bang-up job of it over here in this thread already. LOL

----------


## Terry1

> Are you really that dense?  *I WAS OVER THERE UNTIL JOHNGALT STOPPED PARTICIPATING!*  How do I have a discussion with a pagan that you already ran off?


The thread's still open dude.  How do you know he's stopped participating until you run over there and show us all how it's done. Go on now---I want to see this.

----------


## jmdrake

> The thread's still open dude.  How do you know he's stopped participating until you run over there and show us all how it's done. Go on now---I want to see this.


Because he stopped posting in it.

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## jmdrake

> Let's see jm walk the walk.  I want to see how he witnesses the love of Christ and the message of God about what the Bible says about witchcraft and paganism to them.  Seriously--let's all see how it's done as jm demonstrates this--after all--he's done such a bang-up job of it over here in this thread already. LOL


I walked the walk.  JG and I had a short conversation in the other thread.  Then he got tried of your crap and quit participating.  Go back and read the thread yourself if you don't believe me.

----------


## phill4paul

> Let's see jm walk the walk.  I want to see how he witnesses the love of Christ and the message of God about what the Bible says about witchcraft and paganism to them.  Seriously--let's all see how it's done as jm demonstrates this--after all--he's done such a bang-up job of it over here in this thread already. LOL


   Would that help bring Peace through Religion on a common level? Or will it sow more discord?

----------


## Terry1

> Because he stopped posting in it.


His posts are still there to reply to--go on now--don't be shy---you can do this--I believe in you.

----------


## Terry1

> Would that help bring Peace through Religion on a common level? Or will it sow more discord?


Not the way jm tells it.  According to him I went about it all wrong, he knows the right way, but no one has seen him in action yet.  If he shows the love he's talking about---there shouldn't be any discord now should there.  I want to see jm demonstrate how to talk to those who endorse and support witchcraft and paganism. 

Feet to the fire and all of that now.

----------


## jmdrake

> Not the way jm tells it.  According to him I went about it all wrong, he knows the right way, but no one has seen him in action yet.  If he shows the love he's talking about---there shouldn't be any discord now should there.  I want to see jm demonstrate how to talk to those who endorse and support witchcraft and paganism. 
> 
> Feet to the fire and all of that now.


If you want to see Paul's method in action go back and read the exchange between JG and myself.  But I suspect you are only interested in self justification.  That seems to typically be your concern.  JG responded to my question about his beliefs post #98.  By the time I responded to his response he had already dropped out of the thread thanks to you and Sola_Fide.  Congrats!  You've graduated from the Sola_Fide school of evangelism!  Did he sign your diploma?

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> It's not for the lack of trying.  Apparently Christians calling for Christians to actually be Christian *to each other* is too much for some people.


Curious how you fellas always consider the back-biting and critiquing of one another as intellectual discourse.   Shall we go back and view the number of times you have been and sounded unloving as a Christian man?  I think not, JM.  What would it prove other than you do the exact same thing to others as you claim is being done here.

----------


## jmdrake

> His posts are still there to reply to--go on now--don't be shy---you can do this--I believe in you.


I already replied.  He didn't reply to the reply because he had quit posting in that thread before I made it.  Why should I reply to myself?  That's something you and SF do.

----------


## jmdrake

> Curious how you fellas always consider the back-biting and critiquing of one another as intellectual discourse.   Shall we go back and view the number of times you have been and sounded unloving as a Christian man?  I think not, JM.  What would it prove other than you do the exact same thing to others as you claim is being done here.


Feel free to do that Louise.  I already admitted that I've done the same.  When the repentant thief on the cross told the other thief "We're both wrong" how would it have sounded for a third thief to tell the repentant thief "How dare you say that when you are wrong too?"  Think about that.

----------


## Ronin Truth

*"By their fruits, ye shall know them."*

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> Moving on != lying.  You can't be self righteous, pretend you haven't done anything wrong ever and then say "Well that's just poor judgment in the past."


Why not?  It seems to be quite popular here.

----------


## moostraks

> Would that help bring Peace through Religion on a common level? Or will it sow more discord?


From my time at that point in my life, I'd say discord, but some folks thrive on that around here. I have come to the opinion it is usually because they lack something in their own souls and are lashing out to justify those feelings. Pagans aren't stupid  and the very existence of this thread lays it out like some sort game of conquest where no true friendship can blossom and it will be viewed as manipulation to press forward imo.

I don't know why anyone would move forward in trust they could be forgiven for anything by the witness I have seen. Look at how my past is treated here by those who say they are Christian. Smh...

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> Feel free to do that Louise.  I already admitted that I've done the same.  When the repentant thief on the cross told the other thief "We're both wrong" how would it have sounded for a third thief to tell the repentant thief "How dare you say that when you are wrong too?"  Think about that.


What are you looking for here, JM?    A public apology for calling Terry out in previous threads?  An admission that I would rather be legalist than lawless?  What?

----------


## Terry1

> If you want to see Paul's method in action go back and read the exchange between JG and myself.  But I suspect you are only interested in self justification.  That seems to typically be your concern.  JG responded to my question about his beliefs post #98.  By the time I responded to his response he had already dropped out of the thread thanks to you and Sola_Fide.  Congrats!  You've graduated from the Sola_Fide school of evangelism!  Did he sign your diploma?


One point you illustrated for us and made is clear is how easy it is tell others how they should love one another and then here is your example above.  You'd do well to take your own advice there jm instead of running away with your tail between your legs because you really don't want to be the one to give the message to pagans and witches they need to hear.  Who's going to listen to you after your examples?  Do you think you impressed them by preaching love and than attacking me just the same.  See how that works.

I guess your way of showing them love is by attacking those giving the message of life and truth that offended them in the first place.  Showing them how much of a friend you are to them and how terribly hateful other Christians can be by quoting the word of God to them and nothing more. Oh--how dare we do such a thing--we might actually be mistaken for real Christians.

----------


## PierzStyx

> My Lord God comes first and before any other sort of liberty outside of my liberty in Christ Himself.   There is no liberty-god only liberty i_n_ Christ and those who follow Him.


Yes, absolutely. But you cannot coerce faith, hope, or charity. In the marketplace of ideas all ideas compete, and the greatest rise to the top. This I have no problem with as I have absolute faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ to be victorious. God has given everyone liberty to act through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, freedom to choose Him or not.

----------


## jmdrake

> Why not?  It seems to be quite popular here.


What's popular isn't always what's right.  You know in one of the threads when Terry was posting stuff that you and moos said that she didn't like I started to post everything negative I said to her in the "Whore of Babylon" thread but my browser crashed after I wasted time doing that.  But it's still there.  Feel free to post it here if you like.  I don't care.  And you don't have to post what Terry said to me.  I'm not going to pretend I've been perfect and consistent in Christian love when I haven't been.  That doesn't mean that I can't point out the truth which is that Christian love is the best way to be...well...*Christian*.  When I first posted in this thread I honestly hadn't read the exchange between Terry and moos in the  Germanic pagan thread.  I didn't (and don't) think it was important.  What's important, if one is interested in reaching the lost, is interactions with the lost.  The disciples got their crap together in the upper room before going out and trying to sell their new religion to the lost.  On an open forum we don't have that same luxury, but we could made an attempt.  Or....we could keep doing things the same old way.

----------


## Terry1

> Feel free to do that Louise.  I already admitted that I've done the same.  When the repentant thief on the cross told the other thief "We're both wrong" how would it have sounded for a third thief to tell the repentant thief "How dare you say that when you are wrong too?"  Think about that.


I'll stand up for Louise here and say that the only person who's been wrong so far in thread is you jm.  At least Louise isn't a coward--she's not afraid to stand for what she believes.  These kinds of people are the ones that do make a difference in Christ--not just the talkers--the doers are those ones making a difference and winning souls for Christ--not the appeasers to evil.

----------


## jmdrake

> One point you illustrated for us and made is clear is how easy it is tell others how they should love one another and then here is your example above.  You'd do well to take your own advice there jm instead of running away with your tail between your legs because you really don't want to be the one to give the message to pagans and witches they need to hear.  Who's going to listen to you after your examples?  Do you think you impressed them by preaching love and than attacking me just the same.  See how that works.
> 
> I guess your way of showing them love is by attacking those giving the message of life and truth that offended them in the first place.  Showing them how much of a friend you are to them and how terribly hateful other Christians can be by quoting the word of God to them and nothing more. Oh--how dare we do such a thing--we might actually be mistaken for real Christians.


LOL.  Engaging a pagan in conversation about his religion as long as he will talk to you is not "running away with your tail between your legs."  And continuing to try to post to someone who clearly isn't listing by copying and pasting the same Bible verses over and over again is not evangelism.  The person with the "tail between her legs" is you.  You have yet to address the fact that your evangelistic method to pagans is different than Paul's.  Why are you afraid to talk about that?

----------


## PierzStyx

> Stop focusing on the message and focus on the purpose of the message....reaching the lost.


Bingo. Paul himself uses Greek idols to reach Greek idolators when Paul proclaims Christ the "Unknown God" the Athenians so ignorantly and fearfully worship. The point  isn't to drive wedges but to convert souls. Being "right" doesn't help anyone; it doesn't proclaim the gospel, perfect the believers, or redeem the lost. It does encourage anger, contention, and standoffishness.  Love is how you reach people, the Spirit of God is how you reach people, and it is our most important work as Christians. “After all that has been said, the greatest and most important duty is to preach the Gospel.”

----------


## jmdrake

> I'll stand up for Louise here and say that the only person who's been wrong so far in thread is you jm.


Right.  Because I follow the Bible example of evangelism to pagans.  You think the Bible is wrong.  Okay.  Write your own Bible then.

One more thing Terry.  Your logic circuits are broken.  How can I be the only one "wrong" in this thread when there are others in this thread who agree with my position?  They would have to be wrong too right?  But logic never was your strong point.

----------


## jmdrake

> Bingo. Paul himself uses Greek idols to reach Greek idolators when Paul proclaims Christ the "Unknown God" the Athenians so ignorantly and fearfully worship. The point  isn't to drive wedges but to convert souls. Being "right" doesn't help anyone; it doesn't proclaim the gospel, perfect the believers, or redeem the lost. It does encourage anger, contention, and standoffishness.  “After all that has been said, the greatest and most important duty is to preach the Gospel.”


Terry doesn't believe in the whole Bible apparently.

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> What's popular isn't always what's right.  You know in one of the threads when Terry was posting stuff that you and moos said that she didn't like I started to post everything negative I said to her in the "Whore of Babylon" thread but my browser crashed after I wasted time doing that.  But it's still there.  Feel free to post it here if you like.  I don't care.  And you don't have to post what Terry said to me.  I'm not going to pretend I've been perfect and consistent in Christian love when I haven't been.  That doesn't mean that I can't point out the truth which is that Christian love is the best way to be...well...*Christian*.  When I first posted in this thread I honestly hadn't read the exchange between Terry and moos in the  Germanic pagan thread.  I didn't (and don't) think it was important.  What's important, if one is interested in reaching the lost, is interactions with the lost.  The disciples got their crap together in the upper room before going out and trying to sell their new religion to the lost.  On an open forum we don't have that same luxury, but we could made an attempt.  Or....we could keep doing things the same old way.


The thing is, you continue to joust with Terry in this thread and you could just as well stop doing that.  You've made your point.  Back to the OP.

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## jmdrake

//

----------


## Terry1

> Bingo. Paul himself uses Greek idols to reach Greek idolators when Paul proclaims Christ the "Unknown God" the Athenians so ignorantly and fearfully worship. The point  isn't to drive wedges but to convert souls. Being "right" doesn't help anyone; it doesn't proclaim the gospel, perfect the believers, or redeem the lost. It does encourage anger, contention, and standoffishness.  Love is how you reach people, the Spirit of God is how you reach people, and it is our most important work as Christians. “After all that has been said, the greatest and most important duty is to preach the Gospel.”


Paul was a free man in Christ and did many things to win souls, but one thing he never did was appease evil by defending those who practiced it and supported it. Paul flat out told them it was demonic in nature and why.  Paul wasn't always as loving as many think he was when it came to reaching lost souls either.

----------


## jmdrake

> Paul was a free man in Christ and did many things to win souls, but one thing he never did was appease evil by defending those who practiced it and supported it. Paul flat out told them it was demonic in nature and why.  Paul wasn't always as loving as many think he was when it came to reaching lost souls either.


You realize that Paul's audience in 1 Corithians and in Acts 17 were two different groups of people right?

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## Eagles' Wings

1 John 5:19-21       English Standard Version (ESV)




19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. 

21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

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## Eagles' Wings

DEFINING DECEPTION:

What is a Cult, the Occult, and the New Age?

By Chris Lawson (April 2010) (PDF)



Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, 

except there come a falling away firstremember ye not, 

that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

(2 Thessalonians 2:3-5)


The word imperative is defined as:  a command; an order; an obligation; a duty.[1]

Applied to the world of spirituality and terminology, we would say that it is imperative that we define our terms. As discerning Christians it is part of our duty to know what spiritual terms mean and to stay away from those things that could lead to spiritual harm.  To not do so can be disastrous.

Cult, Occult, New Age

 Many Christians today have no idea what is referred to when terms such as New Age, occult, cult, contemplative spirituality, yoga, Reiki, Word Faith, positive confession, centering prayer, etc. are used in everyday conversation.  Because of ignorance, undiscerning people are oftentimes led into these things and they fall away from the truth.  When defining terms such as these, we are not trying to belittle group leaders or pigeon-hole individuals as "evil", "unkind" or "immoral" people. We are simply defining terms that describe movements, teachings, groups and individuals that are involved with doctrine or practices which are generally considered to be outside of the doctrines of historic Christianity.

What is a "Cult"?

 The term "cult" is based on a farming term [Latincultus] meaning cultivation and is oftentimes used in relation to a religious structure or belief system that has meanings unique to their disciplines or group. In the Christian setting, the term "cult" can refer to a system of religious beliefs or rituals that are polarized around one persons misinterpretation of the biblical person of Jesus Christ. 

In many cases, inside and outside the church, the term "cult" has been used as a loaded term to describe any religious group one views as strange or dangerous. People also use the word "cult" to describe "religious leaders or organizations that employ abusive, manipulative, or illegal control over their followers lives."

Christians generally consider "cults" to believe and teach doctrines that are outside the confines of the essential doctrines of the historic Christian faith.  In this sense, "cults" and "cultic teachings" derive from serious deviations from the essential doctrines of classical Christianity.  Furthermore, as previously stated, most "cults" revolve around a leaders unbiblical interpretation of the person and work of Jesus Christ. In most cases, groups that claim to be Christian but have severely deviated from the central doctrines of the Christian faith (God, Jesus, and salvation), should be recognized as "non-Christian cults" or psudeo-Christian cults. That is they say they are Christian and appear to be Christian, but they are clearly not Christian at all (i.e. Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormon's, Christian Science, Christadelphians, etc.).

Theologically, these are not Christian groups and they have no place calling themselves Christian. The reason is is that their unbiblical teachings attack the foundations of the Christian faith.

What is the "Occult"?

 The term, occult comes from the Latin occultus or hidden. The word "occult" is generally used to describe secret and mysterious supernatural powers or magical [magick], religious rituals. 

Throughout history, occult practitioners have attempted to gain supernatural power or knowledge apart from the God of the Bible. The term "occult" or occultism generally refers to witchcraft, Satanism, neo-paganism, or any of the various forms of Psychic discernment such as astrology, séances, palm reading, etc.  

God's Word clearly condemns occultism in all its forms. The reason? Once an occult practitioner opens the door to the occult, the demonic inevitably comes through. All who dabble in the occult, including Christians, place themselves in hostile opposition to the creator of the universe. Furthermore, statistics reveal that occult practitioners across the globe oftentimes suffer the consequences of delusion, psychoses, paranoia, undiagnosable diseases, immorality including sexual perversion, demonic possession, suicide, etc. For good reason God says don't have anything to do with such activities!

What is the "New Age"?

 The New Age movement is a belief system which encompasses thousands of autonomous and oftentimes contradictory beliefs. New Age practitioners oftentimes utilize occult methods and techniques for enlightenment, energy balancing, and channeling. The New Age is actually ancient paganism clothed in 21st century dress.

The New Age Movement borrows its theology from pantheistic Eastern religions. Many of its practices come from 19th century Western occultism that have been brought to the West through Eastern religious leaders, cultists, yoga instructors, etc. The Theosophical Society, a group going back to the late 19th century, was instrumental in mixing Eastern religions and Western magic - and then introducing this spiritual mix to Europe and north America. The New Age Movement in its modern context was largely birthed through Theosophy.

 The Index of Cults and Religions states that those caught up in the "New Age Movement" generally exhibit one or more of the following beliefs [oftentimes in conjunction with "occult" methodology]:  

1. All is one, all reality is part of the whole.
 2. Everything is God and God is everything (pantheism and pan-en-theism).
 3. Man is God or a part of God.
 4. Man never dies, but continues to live through reincarnation.
 5. Man can create his own reality and/or values through transformed consciousness or altered states of consciousness.

Parting words

 Dear reader, anyone who promotes, teaches, practices, or endorses any type of cultism, mysticism, occultism or New Ageism is seriously misled and is misleading others! The following Bible verses ought to be seriously heeded by Christians and non-Christians alike.  All who place any value whatsoever on human life ought not to dabble in these things. The reason? Because when one opens the door to the kingdom of darkness the demonic realm is more than willing to come flooding through.  

 In Deuteronomy 18:9-14 God says:

When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God. For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

It is up to you and you alone to read your Bible, discern between truth and error, and contend earnestly for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saint  (Jude 3-4).

Prove [test] all things; hold fast [cling tenaciously to] that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil.  (1 Thessalonians 5:21-22)



Endnotes:

1  http://www.answers.com/topic/imperative

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## moostraks

Idols are something worshipped that are created not Creation energy. Throwing accusations around at someone without hearing where they are coming from will not further the dialogue.

----------


## Terry1

> You realize that Paul's audience in 1 Corithians and in Acts 17 were two different groups of people right?


For the sake of peace in this thread--I really have nothing further to say to you after all that you've said and done illustrating your so-called love in here.  You will be ignored throughout the duration of this thread by me and that is for both our sakes here.  I'm looking out for ya.

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## Terry1

> Idols are something worshipped that are created not Creation energy. Throwing accusations around at someone without hearing where they are coming from will not further the dialogue.


moos--where are the accusations that you speak of with regard to this discussion on paganism?  Find a quote and let's discuss it.

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## Eagles' Wings

> Idols are something worshipped that are created not Creation energy. Throwing accusations around at someone without hearing where they are coming from will not further the dialogue.


This thread is about exposing forces that are anti-Christ, IOW, the dialogue in this thread is specific for that purpose.  With respect to you, Moos, you may not be comfortable hearing this.  Perhaps you would be more comfortable on a forum that discusses your beliefs.

There are a gazillion sites that discuss this issue.  It is nothing new.  Christians have been defending the Lord against new age false gods throughout history.

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## jllundqu

> Calling all Christians to stand your ground.
> *
> "Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols." (1 Corinthians 12:1-2)
> 
>  "Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of The Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both The Lord's table and the table of demons." (1 Corinthians 10:19-21)*


So you mean turning water into wine, walking on water, raising the dead... that kind of witchcraft?  lol   I would consider myself a deist or neopagan but I abhor labels, so...

There is nothing wrong with people understanding the natural cycles of the earth/moon... the seasons and solstices...  actually Freemasonry is very pagan in that regard, which is probably why closed-minded Christians don't like freemasonry!

This is a non issue.

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## Eagles' Wings

> So you mean turning water into wine, walking on water, raising the dead... that kind of witchcraft?  lol   I would consider myself a deist or neopagan but I abhor labels, so...
> 
> There is nothing wrong with people understanding the natural cycles of the earth/moon... the seasons and solstices...  actually Freemasonry is very pagan in that regard, which is probably why closed-minded Christians don't like freemasonry!
> 
> This is a non issue.


What an unspeakable disgrace you have committed here.  In words, you have spoken strongly against Christ, suggesting His miracles are witchcraft.

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## jmdrake

> So you mean turning water into wine, walking on water, raising the dead... that kind of witchcraft?  lol   I would consider myself a deist or neopagan but I abhor labels, so...
> 
> There is nothing wrong with people understanding the natural cycles of the earth/moon... the seasons and solstices...  actually Freemasonry is very pagan in that regard, which is probably why closed-minded Christians don't like freemasonry!
> 
> This is a non issue.


Do you believe paganism to only be about "understanding natural cycles?"  Is mysticism required for that?  I don't consider an almanac to be pagan.  When people sought to control natural cycles through ritual worship is when the problems started IMO.

----------


## moostraks

> moos--where are the accusations that you speak of with regard to this discussion on paganism?  Find a quote and let's discuss it.


I have been trying to explain to you that the variety in pagans is broader than Christianity so if you want to share the Love of Christ you have to get on an individual level and hear what the person is saying whom you are speaking to about their practices. Tailor the medicine to the illness so to speak if that is your intention. You cannot just throw Scripture at most pagans because most know all that you are going to throw at them and many left because they never saw a witness of Love in Christians. 

It has not helped you keep assuming I am pagan just because I walked that path for awhile. Not as how it pertains to me, but it shows that you are going to ride any pagan professing person every time they blink and accuse them because they cannot remove the stain. Were I to be at that place with regards to Christianity at that time as I was pagan, it would just drive me further away from anything that is said because it appears that Christians don't really believe Christ can conquer anything.

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## Terry1

> So you mean turning water into wine, walking on water, raising the dead... that kind of witchcraft?  lol   I would consider myself a deist or neopagan but I abhor labels, so...
> 
> There is nothing wrong with people understanding the natural cycles of the earth/moon... the seasons and solstices...  actually Freemasonry is very pagan in that regard, which is probably why closed-minded Christians don't like freemasonry!
> 
> This is a non issue.


Interesting.  I'd ask you then--if you had a choice to practice a belief in anything--what would you choose?  Would it be something tangible or something intangible and why?

Also--considering that scientists have alluded to the fact that they can find no beginning or ending to anything in existence today.  So if one is going to choose to believe in something--why would anyone choose something or anything lower than a supreme power capable of such creation itself.  Obviously mankind is as clueless today as they were thousands of years ago.  Mankind has only learned how to manipulate creation without ever actually having created any thing themselves from nothing at all. 

So if I was an unbeliever--I'd have to look at this logically and think to myself--there had to be a reason and purpose behind all of this, so if I'm going to bow down and subscribe to anything--it certainly isn't going to that which is already created--but something or someone far greater than that.

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## moostraks

> Do you believe paganism to only be about "understanding natural cycles?"  Is mysticism required for that?  I don't consider an almanac to be pagan.  When people sought to control natural cycles through ritual worship is when the problems started IMO.


 Southern Baptists ime were not too keen on seeing nature as anything but an object. I put down the Bible for awhile and sought the Creator in his creation. I was resentful towards all the hate I heard sitting in the pews and pointing fingers at others. For me, I didn't want to control anything. I wanted to see with new eyes all that had been stripped of its God given beauty. I sought out those who taught or believed in rejecting negativity.

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## jllundqu

> Interesting.  I'd ask you then--if you had a choice to practice a belief in anything--what would you choose?  Would it be something tangible or something intangible and why?
> 
> Also--considering that scientists have alluded to the fact that they can find no beginning or ending to anything in existence today.  So if one is going to choose to believe in something--why would anyone choose something or anything lower than a supreme power capable of such creation itself.  Obviously mankind is as clueless today as they were thousands of years ago.  Mankind has only learned how to manipulate creation without ever actually having created any thing themselves from nothing at all. 
> 
> So if I was an unbeliever--I'd have to look at this logically and think to myself--there had to be a reason and purpose behind all of this, so if I'm going to bow down and subscribe to anything--it certainly isn't going to that which is already created--but something or someone far greater than that.


My answer is simple.  I am not an 'unbeliever' as you put it.  I absolutely believe in God.  I believe God created the universe and everything in it.  That is my conclusion from a long and careful study of science and nature.  It's Christianity I don't believe in.  To me, Christianity is no different than people who worshipped Zeus and were afraid he'd throw lightning at them for every transgression.  God is real, but I don't believe for one second that he (she? it?) rewards the righteous or punishes the wicked depending on how much one prays or believes.

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## Terry1

> I have been trying to explain to you that the variety in pagans is broader than Christianity so if you want to share the Love of Christ you have to get on an individual level and hear what the person is saying whom you are speaking to about their practices. Tailor the medicine to the illness so to speak if that is your intention. You cannot just throw Scripture at most pagans because most know all that you are going to throw at them and many left because they never saw a witness of Love in Christians. 
> 
> It has not helped you keep assuming I am pagan just because I walked that path for awhile. Not as how it pertains to me, but it shows that you are going to ride any pagan professing person every time they blink and accuse them because they cannot remove the stain. Were I to be at that place with regards to Christianity at that time as I was pagan, it would just drive me further away from anything that is said because it appears that Christians don't really believe Christ can conquer anything.


Now for the first time in a while--I am truly understanding your struggle here--before--not so much--hence the disputes--sorry for those btw.  Since we can't undo what's already been said and done on both our parts--let's start here fresh and anew with this shall we?  

From what I'm seeing is that you're having a hard time letting go of something you once practiced thinking it was good--obviously by your own statement here in this thread--you still believe it's worth defending.  What both Louise and I are attempting to show is that until you truly understand that the defense of this practice and support of it is not Biblical or Christian in any way shape or form.

For example:  Jesus preached to the drunks and prostitutes--he went over and sat down with them and much to the dismay of His own disciples--whom Jesus rebuked and corrected for their error in judgment against Jesus doing this.  Jesus *sat with them*--He did not support what they were doing-nor did He encourage what they were doing, but rather reached out to them in a friendly gesture of love with a message of truth--trying to reveal to them a better way--a better life that would lead them to God and eternal security with Him.  Jesus never defended their adultery or drunkenness--what He gave them was a message of life and love telling them that what they were doing is not of God--it was evil and to repent and  be forgiven.

Do you understand how your defense of paganism does not reconcile with your confession of being a Christian?  They are oil and water--they will never mix.  You're trying to serve two different masters by doing so and no one is getting hurt by this but you and you alone--other than those you're convincing that what you're doing is right--when it's not--it's just wrong.

I don't know how else to say this without offending you--really--this isn't a message of hate or insult--it's truly with regard to your eternal soul.  God loves you--and because He loves you wants you to understand these things for your own good.

----------


## jllundqu

> Interesting.  I'd ask you then--if you had a choice to practice a belief in anything--what would you choose?  Would it be something tangible or something intangible and why?
> 
> Also--considering that scientists have alluded to the fact that they can find no beginning or ending to anything in existence today.  So if one is going to choose to believe in something--why would anyone choose something or anything lower than a supreme power capable of such creation itself.  Obviously mankind is as clueless today as they were thousands of years ago.  Mankind has only learned how to manipulate creation without ever actually having created any thing themselves from nothing at all. 
> 
> So if I was an unbeliever--I'd have to look at this logically and think to myself--there had to be a reason and purpose behind all of this, so if I'm going to bow down and subscribe to anything--it certainly isn't going to that which is already created--but something or someone far greater than that.


And your basically paraphrasing Pascal's Wager... It's better to believe in God and be wrong than to not believe in God and be right.

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## Terry1

> My answer is simple.  I am not an 'unbeliever' as you put it.  I absolutely believe in God.  I believe God created the universe and everything in it.  That is my conclusion from a long and careful study of science and nature.  It's Christianity I don't believe in.  To me, Christianity is no different than people who worshipped Zeus and were afraid he'd throw lightning at them for every transgression.  God is real, but I don't believe for one second that he (she? it?) rewards the righteous or punishes the wicked depending on how much one prays or believes.


Unfortunately--as horrible as labels can be--they are a necessary evil in order to understand each other.  All Christians are not equal--just the same as anything else in life.  We have flaws because we're all still human.  I think a lot of unbelievers think that because we have this label--we're automatically supposed to be prefect in all aspects of humanity--we are not.  All we are is a people who are struggling to get through this life just like everyone else, but we simply have a different goal and that is to be like Christ the best we can.  Many of us fail at times and we have to start over.  This is a process that includes just about anything any one believes in or subscribes to because we're all fallible and capable of error.

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## Kevin007

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-dece...olic_Mithraism  interesting article.....  http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html  another one as well.

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## jmdrake

> http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-dece...olic_Mithraism  interesting article.....  http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html  another one as well.


LOL

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## Terry1

> And your basically paraphrasing Pascal's Wager... It's better to believe in God and be wrong than to not believe in God and be right.


Pascal was also a scientist and mathematician who looked at things logically.  God meets people where they are--not where He wants to be.  Everyone comes to see things from different perspectives in life.  Some find God through science, some through pain and suffering, some through healing, some through other people, places and events.  God is not limited to one genre of folk or geographical location--He's every where His children are.  God is not predictable so no one can presume upon what He'll do or who He chooses to do whatever needs to be done to hasten or tarry His grand plan and design.  God is pure light--there is no darkness in Him at all as His word says.  

All of these things have been proven, but only able to be seen by those given the spiritual sight to see them with--otherwise they remain a mystery and nothing more than a story to be told by those who can not see.  The evidence is overwhelming that surrounds us in everything see see-feel and are able to communicate with on a daily basis. I was blind, but now I see.

Millions upon millions of people have been given this sight and believe by the grace of God.

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## Terry1

> http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-dece...olic_Mithraism  interesting article.....  http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html  another one as well.



Kevin--please stick to the topic.  Surely God has extended His loving grace to both Catholics and Protestants alike who love the Lord with all of their heart.  This isn't the time for arguing over doctrinal differences within the body of Christ.  We are battling for souls here caught up in the occult practices.  Focus--Lol  There's a time and a thread for everything under the sun.

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## Jamesiv1

*Originally posted by Louise:
............"What is a 'Cult?' "*




> a small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerousa situation in which people admire and care about something or someone very much or too mucha small group of very devoted supporters or fans





> a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies





> A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or objectA relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister


For 300 years Christianity was considered a cult and a crime punishable by death.

When they start calling you names (and pejorative labels), you know you're winning.

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## moostraks

> Now for the first time in a while--I am truly understanding your struggle here--before--not so much--hence the disputes--sorry for those btw.  Since we can't undo what's already been said and done on both our parts--let's start here fresh and anew with this shall we?  
> 
> From what I'm seeing is that you're having a hard time letting go of something you once practiced thinking it was good--obviously by your own statement here in this thread--you still believe it's worth defending.  What both Louise and I are attempting to show is that until you truly understand that the defense of this practice and support of it is not Biblical or Christian in any way shape or form.
> 
> For example:  Jesus preached to the drunks and prostitutes--he went over and sat down with them and much to the dismay of His own disciples--whom Jesus rebuked and corrected for their error in judgment against Jesus doing this.  Jesus *sat with them*--He did not support what they were doing-nor did He encourage what they were doing, but rather reached out to them in a friendly gesture of love with a message of truth--trying to reveal to them a better way--a better life that would lead them to God and eternal security with Him.  Jesus never defended their adultery or drunkenness--what He gave them was a message of life and love telling them that what they were doing is not of God--it was evil and to repent and  be forgiven.
> 
> Do you understand how your defense of paganism does not reconcile with your confession of being a Christian?  They are oil and water--they will never mix.  You're trying to serve two different masters by doing so and no one is getting hurt by this but you and you alone--other than those you're convincing that what you're doing is right--when it's not--it's just wrong.
> 
> I don't know how else to say this without offending you--really--this isn't a message of hate or insult--it's truly with regard to your eternal soul.  God loves you--and because He loves you wants you to understand these things for your own good.


Lol, I'm not struggling nor reconciling anything at present. Since you proceed from this premise with the rest of the prescription from there, well, I appreciate the intent behind what you are attempting to do but um, well, what more can I say? You aren't offending me because you don't know me. 

People can wrap themselves in whatever external manifestation they wish but it doesn't change the heart and the heart is what we are judged by. Others can judge us by our fruits.

I don't begrudge or regret my path because I have never been completely alone nor have I consorted with the lords of darkness. I tuned out noise and sought Him within creation. It wasn't proper to do so in the schools of thought I was in at the time. I gained much deeper growth for having walked away from the toxicity of religion.

My faith is Love and I trust in His Wisdom. 

~~~peace

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## Ender

Just thought I'd mention that the original writings in the Bible do not mention pagans or witches.

The original wording that now says "pagans" speak of gentiles or the other people; the "suffer a witch not to live" was put in for King James, who hated witches. The original said murderer or poisoner.

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## phill4paul

To the OP. For a time Norse mythology appealed to me. This would be around the age of 18-21 or so after coming from a Christian upbringing. This led me into a further study of mythology and the Pantheons created by man in all aspects. Their similarities and dis-similarities. There is really so much out there in the history of mankind that a broad understanding is the best one can hope for. 
  In my way I have come to an understanding that there is a light and a dark. That there is good and evil. That there are supernatural constructs that exist, are created by,  the minds of men and given shape or form by their beliefs.
  An interesting story from that time period that I was a worshiper of the Norse pantheon. I was in the Navy. A friend was on deployment and my Japanese girlfriend and I went to dinner at his wife's house. He and his wife were Catholics. She confided to me that she believed an evil presence had entered her life and that this evil presence was causing turmoil in their relationship. I volunteered to do battle with this demon with my totemic spirit (fylgjur). My spirit was one of Odin's, the All Father, the wolf. This was before wolves were memes.   And so we sat down three feet from each other, I called on this fylgjur and then I called her demon to do battle. It took several hours. During this time there were heat/light fluctuations in the room and it seemed a mask came over my friends wife's face on and off again. I called on the demon to leave. At times she spoke in tongues.  And though I did not move from a seated position I was drenched in sweat and my muscles were knotted. And then it was over. I told her she was free from her manifestation.
   Time went by. They moved on. I received a postcard from her thanking me. She said their marriage had never been better. That after that night it was like a darkness was lifted. I'd put it all up to hallucination but my Japanese girlfriend, who spoke little to no English, described these same physical manifestations to me afterwards through my language handbook.
  So what did I learn from this? I suppose that there is energy good and bad. That this energy can assume physical form if enough belief is put into it. That this energy can be harnessed for both good and evil purposes. 
  Pantheons come and go. Eventually, so too will Christianity, and Islam, and Buddhism. As they did for the Norse, Romans and Greeks. They will amalgamate. Transform. As all religions have since man has constructed them.

  Edit: Sorry, meant to post in this thread:http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ermanic-Pagans but it works just as well here so I will leave it.

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## heavenlyboy34

> *Originally posted by Louise:
> ............"What is a 'Cult?' "*
> 
> For 300 years Christianity was considered a cult and a crime punishable by death.
> *
> When they start calling you names (and pejorative labels), you know you're winning*.


Normally, yup.  But the Regime is increasingly becoming the object of nasty names/pejoratives and is losing on several fronts.

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## Jamesiv1

> Normally, yup.  But the Regime is increasingly becoming the object of nasty names/pejoratives and is losing on several fronts.


Yup - I should have said "*Usually*, you know you're winning"

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## Terry1

> To the OP. For a time Norse mythology appealed to me. This would be around the age of 18-21 or so after coming from a Christian upbringing. This led me into a further study of mythology and the Pantheons created by man in all aspects. Their similarities and dis-similarities. There is really so much out there in the history of mankind that a broad understanding is the best one can hope for. 
>   In my way I have come to an understanding that there is a light and a dark. That there is good and evil. That there are supernatural constructs that exist, are created by,  the minds of men and given shape or form by their beliefs.
>   An interesting story from that time period that I was a worshiper of the Norse pantheon. I was in the Navy. A friend was on deployment and my Japanese girlfriend and I went to dinner at his wife's house. He and his wife were Catholics. She confided to me that she believed an evil presence had entered her life and that this evil presence was causing turmoil in their relationship. I volunteered to do battle with this demon with my totemic spirit (fylgjur). My spirit was one of Odin's, the All Father, the wolf. This was before wolves were memes.   And so we sat down three feet from each other, I called on this fylgjur and then I called her demon to do battle. It took several hours. During this time there were heat/light fluctuations in the room and it seemed a mask came over my friends wife's face on and off again. I called on the demon to leave. At times she spoke in tongues.  And though I did not move from a seated position I was drenched in sweat and my muscles were knotted. And then it was over. I told her she was free from her manifestation.
>    Time went by. They moved on. I received a postcard from her thanking me. She said their marriage had never been better. That after that night it was like a darkness was lifted. I'd put it all up to hallucination but my Japanese girlfriend, who spoke little to no English, described these same physical manifestations to me afterwards through my language handbook.
>   So what did I learn from this? I suppose that there is energy good and bad. That this energy can assume physical form if enough belief is put into it. That this energy can be harnessed for both good and evil purposes. 
>   Pantheons come and go. Eventually, so too will Christianity, and Islam, and Buddhism. As they did for the Norse, Romans and Greeks. They will amalgamate. Transform. As all religions have since man has constructed them.
> 
>   Edit: Sorry, meant to post in this thread:http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ermanic-Pagans but it works just as well here so I will leave it.


I truly appreciate the time you took to share this and I can see why you would believe that people create these positive or negative energies as well given your past experiences.

The experience that I shared in the other pagan thread about a friend who's entire family was being harassed spiritually is also very true.  God's word has existed since the forming of the foundations of this word.  It was never written down until later.  Theological and scientific studies have also shown the earth is not nearly as old as many believe it to be, and there is also something called Gap Theory that we won't get into now either, but serves to give evidence that God has always been with no beginning or end--the same as everything that's created.

The spiritual realm is more real than this world we live in because it is an unseen reality that exist on another different plane of existence.  People are blinded to this realm for both good and bad reasons.  Gods word says that if the scales were dropped from our eyes, we would be able to see what is actually existing all around us that we can't normally see on a daily basis.  Gods word also tells that when these scales were dropped from the eyes of Elisha--only then he saw the chariots of fire and the legions of the angels of God protecting them from evil.

The entire deception with evil as the word of God tells us is that it can only deceive someone when it appears to be something they want it to be.  Evil can appear as a angel of light or they can convince someone that they too can accomplish miracles of healing and good--only to lead them further into something that eventually will turn darker and darker until it had hold of that human soul forever.  This is the purpose of evil--the devil and his fallen angels is to appear as whatever people want to lure them into darkness further.

Gods word tells us the only way we can protect ourselves from this is to abide in Christ the savior and His Spirit alone.  Only this will protect us from the evil that would otherwise tear mankind apart--literally.  This is also why we are told to gird up in prayer every day with the spiritual armor of God that serves as an unseen spiritual hedge of protection around us.  The only way to fight evil is spiritually and the only way to be protected from it is spiritually abiding in Christ our Lord and Savior.  

Thanks for sharing your story.

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## Sola_Fide

> http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-dece...olic_Mithraism  interesting article.....  http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html  another one as well.


Hey Kevin, be careful with the Amazing Discoveries website.  They are Seventh Day Adventists.  They believe Roman Catholicism is wrong because it is the figurehead of Sunday worship (not for the right reasons).

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## Kevin007

> Hey Kevin, be careful with the Amazing Discoveries website.  They are Seventh Day Adventists.  They believe Roman Catholicism is wrong because it is the figurehead of Sunday worship (not for the right reasons).


  gotcha. I def. do not agree with their sabbath keeping.

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## Kevin007

http://www.letusreason.org/NAM9.htm

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## HVACTech

> Just thought I'd mention that the original writings in the Bible do not mention pagans or witches.
> 
> The original wording that now says "pagans" speak of gentiles or the other people; the "suffer a witch not to live" was put in for King James, who hated witches. The original said murderer or poisoner.


King James was one creepy dude. 

is it also true that the word 'sky' was changed to 'heaven'? 
I just heard of this toady...

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## Terry1

> Lol, I'm not struggling nor reconciling anything at present. Since you proceed from this premise with the rest of the prescription from there, well, I appreciate the intent behind what you are attempting to do but um, well, what more can I say? You aren't offending me because you don't know me. 
> 
> People can wrap themselves in whatever external manifestation they wish but it doesn't change the heart and the heart is what we are judged by. Others can judge us by our fruits.
> 
> I don't begrudge or regret my path because I have never been completely alone nor have I consorted with the lords of darkness. I tuned out noise and sought Him within creation. It wasn't proper to do so in the schools of thought I was in at the time. I gained much deeper growth for having walked away from the toxicity of religion.
> 
> My faith is Love and I trust in His Wisdom. 
> 
> ~~~peace


We can not mistake correction with the message of love for judgment or persecution.  We are supposed to correct each other when we stumble and to lead the sheep home.  When someone doesn't want to be corrected or change what they're doing--of course they will accuse the brethren.  This is who the devil is and those who serve him--they are the accusers of the brethren and they will never stop accusing them until God puts an end to them Himself.

Choose this day whom you will follow:

*Joshua 24:14-15**14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord.*
*15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.*

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## Terry1

Any form of paganism is false doctrine. Paul addressed this perversion of the truth in his letter to the believers in Rome (Romans 1:22–27). The people Paul described were worldly and materialistic, worshipping created things rather than the Creator. They worshipped trees, animals, and rocks, going so far as to abuse their bodies in deviant sexual practices to revel in their passions. Paul then goes on to tell us why they did this and the end result:

 “Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done” (Romans 1:28).

And after this--they were lost forever and will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven, but will go to that place God has reserved for them.

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## Terry1

> King James was one creepy dude. 
> 
> is it also true that the word 'sky' was changed to 'heaven'? 
> I just heard of this toady...


There is no perfect Bible--only the perfect Holy Spirit of the Lord can sort through the errors of translation and reveal Himself to those who seek with a sincere heart and mind.  Seek and you will find--knock and the door to knowledge and understanding will be opened--otherwise--without this key to unlock Gods truth--they will never understand it or God.

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## VIDEODROME

Hmmm....  Just let me look up a translation spell for accuracy.

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## HVACTech

> Any form of paganism is false doctrine. Paul addressed this perversion of the truth in his letter to the believers in Rome (Romans 1:22–27). The people Paul described were worldly and materialistic, worshipping created things rather than the Creator. They worshipped trees, animals, and rocks, going so far as to abuse their bodies in deviant sexual practices to revel in their passions. Paul then goes on to tell us why they did this and the end result:
> 
>  “Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done” (Romans 1:28).
> 
> And after this--they were lost forever and will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven, but will go to that place God has reserved for them.


you can be so cold Love.
are you from the middle east?
over here, we Love and respect our Womenfolk.

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## Terry1

> you can be so cold Love.
> are you from the middle east?
> over here, we Love and respect our Womenfolk.


Why in the world would you ask me if I was from the ME???  I am a woman and born and raised in Ohio.  LOL  I guess there's just a lot of people that interpret Gods word as something cold and cruel instead of a message of love and life.  I didn't set the standard for morality--God did.  Is God cold then?

I guess this also begs the question--what sets the precedent for anyone's morality?  I've asked this before.  Where to you believe the origin and concepts of "good or evil" began.  How do people know they're not supposed to lie, cheat, steal, rob or murder?  What keeps mankind from tearing themselves apart?  Did morality just evolve from a mud puddle or was it created?

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## HVACTech

> Why in the world would you ask me if I was from the ME???  I am a woman and born and raised in Ohio.  LOL


I am insecure Love. 

I find myself oddly attracted to peaches. 
am I a Pagan?

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## Terry1

> I am insecure Love. 
> 
> I find myself oddly attracted to peaches. 
> am I a Pagan?


I don't know--are you?  Read the word of God and find out.

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## moostraks

> We can not mistake correction with the message of love for judgment or persecution.  We are supposed to correct each other when we stumble and to lead the sheep home.  When someone doesn't want to be corrected or change what they're doing--of course they will accuse the brethren.  This is who the devil is and those who serve him--they are the accusers of the brethren and they will never stop accusing them until God puts an end to them Himself.
> 
> Choose this day whom you will follow:
> 
> *Joshua 24:14-15**14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord.*
> *15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.*


What is this supposed to be directed to? Yourself?

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## Terry1

> What is this supposed to be directed to? Yourself?


Is that what you think--that what I quoted applies to me?  Weren't you the one defending paganism and witchcraft?  I don't want to play this game with you moos--frankly I'm tired here tonight anyway.  I think you got the message--no matter how you wish to interpret that--it's up to you.  It's your soul and eternal destiny--not mine. 

Good night.

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## Kevin007

RJB, get a life hater. Almost every neg I have is from you, lol. I know I'm doing good.

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## RJB

> RJB, get a life hater. Almost every neg I have is from you, lol. I know I'm doing good.


(Shrug)  Why don't you post something truthful about others for a change?

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## Terry1

> I'm not playing games. You haven't a clue or any humility about what you seem to be running on about and you don't even bother to get to know those you preach it all while placing yourself on some pretty pedestal as "the brethren" and making some bizarre accusations again about being accused? Whatever...
> 
> Good night


I haven't a clue or any humility?  Uhhu--well, seems to me not too long ago you were "running on about" and accusing some of us-- including me of bowing down to demons, but how strange that your little buddy there didn't jump in and defend us from your accusations of that either.  Now come to find out you used to be a witch and still with this adoration for the "old crone and her familiar/demon" companion, while running on about how you will defend witchcraft and paganism while touting yourself a "Christian" at the same time. 

So "getting to know you"---is pretty much a foregone conclusion already.

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## Terry1

> SOS different day, eh?  Now I know you need to be the underdog so you can claim the pity vote and attack others but come on, really? How you can with a straight face demand others ignore all your outbursts as in the past (even if the past was 20 minutes prior) and then carp on something someone else said to you 6 months or over what like a year ago with a person who isn't even a member any more? Really? 
> 
> Again, the demons thing, you walked yourself into that iirc, because for me to hold to that belief would mean I would disregard everything good that is offered from the EOC. Now, since I bump certain threads and have made it well known that there is good instruction for those who feel drawn to that path, the argument you continually put up is ridiculous but that doesn't seem to take the wind out of the sails of its usage.
> 
> So you don't say in a liberty forum, subforum based upon peace, as a follower of religion path that believes in forgiveness and the power of Creator energy to reach all peoples and greater than any human construct, I would support getting to know a person and their practices and respect them as I would wish to be treated is...shameful, unloving, demonic, accusing " the brethren" ? Please...
> 
> Yet, you dismiss historical data, you dismiss personal interaction, as neither is necessary because you know it all. You push medieval propaganda with no humility and then claim _you_ are persecuted? You think you can throw verses at people with all your wisdom of well...choosing not to get all dirty with that individual neighborly kindness thing to find out whether what you are assuming is any ways accurate. You read and grasp none of what is said in response but look for more arrows to sling so you can elevate yourself and claim superiority. This is why pagans will not converse with Christians, any Christians, because they learn it is a waste of breath more often than not to get the opposing party to hear them.
> 
> I gave an explanation of my view of crone-old healer marginalized by hypocrites to the edge of society yet used by said hypocrites when they needed her services. I gave an explanation of familiar-a wise companion animal with its own soul. You find that to be shameful? To support the misunderstood, elderly, marginalized is shameful and demonic? To want to live in connection and mutual benefit with His creatures is shameful and demonic? 
> ...


You post one strawman argument after another, including nothing but, lies, accusations and insults.  This is your normal MO.  You just can't tell the truth can you.  If you didn't misrepresent something and lie about it--I wouldn't recognize a post of yours even if it had your username next to it. Lol

  I wouldn't even try to begin dissecting that pile of trash you posted because it stands as a monument and reminder of who you are.  Everything you post is an indication that you have some serious spiritual issues going on.  In one post you'll say one thing and the next something entirely different in defense of yourself.  Makes one wonder if your head ever stops spinning.

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## Terry1

This comes from a Baptist protestant site--just so I won't be accused discrimination-lol

*Question: "What are familiar spirits?"

 Answer:*  The word _familiar_ is from the Latin _familiaris_, meaning a "household servant," and is intended to express the idea that sorcerers had spirits as their servants ready to obey their commands. Those attempting to contact the dead, even to this day, usually have some sort of spirit guide who communicates with them. These are familiar spirits.

Leviticus 19:31; 20:6, 27; and Deuteronomy 18:9-14 refer to mediums and familiar spirits and forbids being involved with them, as they are an abomination to the Lord. A medium is one who acts as a liaison to supposedly contact or communicate with the dead on behalf of the living. In reality mediums are contacting demons who convince the mediums that they are familiar and can be trusted and believed. The practices associated with mediums and familiar spirits were banned in Israel, and the punishment for practicing such things was death.

 Familiar spirits and spirit guides are under the control of their master, Satan. They influence people to spread lies and deceit in order to thwart the kingdom of God. To knowingly open oneself to the work of demons is an evil thing: "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a] fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD" (Deuteronomy 18:10-12a).

 Some avenues through which demons or "familiar spirits" can gain entrance into a person's life are divination, transcendental meditation, visualization, necromancy, witchcraft, drugs, and alcohol. These are all activities that believers are exhorted to avoid. Instead, we are to be filled with the Holy Spirit, with love, with joy, and with the fullness of life that comes from Jesus Christ. We are also to be on guard, "for our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms" (Ephesians 6:12).


Read more:  http://www.gotquestions.org/familiar...#ixzz3WrnjNdBD

----------


## Terry1

And for the future here moos--if you want to practice witchcraft and the occult--I have no problem with that at all--it's your choice.  What I do take issue with is you attempting to pass yourself off as a "Christian" in here attempting to correct other Christians when you still have no clue what that is.

If you'd like to start a thread on how great witches are--I'd respect that a whole lot more than you trying to claim the title of Christian while giving witchcraft the props as something good wise and misunderstood.

Be one or the other, but I do get offended when a witch tries to correct Christians on their worship and practices.  Stick to your own kind if you want to correct someone then.  I just imagine that any witch that's true to herself would be telling you the very same thing.  Pick a side and choose your master, but don't be telling Christians or witches how to live and worship until you get it right and pick a side yourself.

----------


## VIDEODROME

What if Moos is an example of syncretic religion?  Even many practitioners of Voodoo believe in Jesus Christ and Mary.... well, in their own peculiar ways. 




> The voodoo god Lenglensou basen san is worshipped as the Sacred Heart of Jesus or le Sacré-Coeur de Jésus.
> 
> In voodoo, loa or mystères inhabit pictures and statues used as visual aids in prayer or worship.
> 
> A voodoo altar consecrated to all the loa with a deck of cards for divination resting on the cross.


Just a thought, because here you have people who were probably preached to by Christian Missionaries and this is what happens.  They accept Jesus into their life, but they don't abandon their old ways either.  

I'm not sure if Moos is in a position like this still appreciating old pagan ways while considering the Christianity Terry would like to see her accept.  I suppose this frustrates Terry if such people seem to be following 2 masters.  Well, there is precedent for this and some people will follow 2 or 10 Masters.  I can imagine some people get tired of dealing with Missions and will keep their old ways while adding both God and Allah or whatever.  They'll have the most elaborate altar to a pantheon of Abrahamic Gods if people will leave them alone.

----------


## Terry1

VIDEODROME, when you were a practicing Catholic, do you remember this teaching?


The Lamp of the Body

(Luke 11:33-36)

*22* The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 

*23* But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great _is_ that darkness!

*24* No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

----------


## Terry1

*The Dangers of Wicca and Halloween
 by Kimberly McRae

http://www.armorofgodbooks.com/?p=358

a born-again Christian saved directly from the grips of Satans WiccaThe lure of the Occult is a powerful tool used by Satan to draw young people and adults to him. Halloween, Samhain, is the most sacred holiday for Wiccans and should not be celebrated by Christians. Our teenage children need to be made aware of the occult in order to avoid the pitfalls that can so easily snare them. At the age of 16 I was introduced to Wicca and found the stories of a Wiccan friend fascinating.


White Magic  The Initial Lure of Wicca

One of the first things that I was told by my new Wiccan acquaintance was that the Christian views of Wicca were skewed. She proceeded to tell me that all the bad publicity about the occult was because of Black Magic practitioners. Being a good kid with a big heart who never got into any trouble the Wiccan was reeling in the line when she started telling me about how witches that practice White Magic are all good, loving nature and everything in it. I could easily identify with that. The Bible warns us of the lure of the devils doctrine and seducing spirits in 1 Timothy.
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
 1 Timothy 4:1
*
I can tell you from experience that there is no distinction between white and black magic. Twelve years later in my Wicca practices I came to the realization that _ALL_ magic was a product of Satan.  The devil wrapped up the path of destruction and wickedness in a pretty package called white magic. At the time that I began to seek the truth I was actively practicing and learning the magic performed by the legendary occult practitioner Aleister Crowley. I was quickly becoming wrapped up in what I thought was the power of Wicca as the devil began working his own magic and I saw signs and wonders which I thought were a result of the rituals I was performing. The Bible warns us that Satan has the power to perform such acts:

*When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Shew a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent. And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent. Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aarons rod swallowed up their rods.
*
* Exodus 7: 9 -12*
*And the magicians did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt.*
* Exodus 8:7*
*And they did so; for Aaron stretched out his hand with his rod, and smote the dust of the earth, and it became lice in man, and in beast; all the dust of the land became lice throughout all the land of Egypt.  And the magicians did so with their enchantments to bring forth lice, but they could not: so there were lice upon man, and upon beast. Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaohs heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.* 
* Exodus 8: 17  19
*
*If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,   And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;  Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.  Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.  And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
*
* Deuteronomy 13: 1  5*
*Even him,** whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
*
* 2 Thes 2:9*
*And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.*

* Revelation 13: 13  14*
*For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.*
* Revelation 16: 14*

While reading one of Crowleys works I flipped towards the end of the book to read If you have read this far and learned all that I have taught you, you are now worshipping the Devil and have sold your soul to him. These were not the exact words but the basic premise. The Bible relates a similar situation in history in 2 Kings when the Isrealites who practiced divination and enchantments were in league with the devil. Wiccans practice divination and enchantments today.

*And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.*

----------


## moostraks

> What if Moos is an example of syncretic religion?  Even many practitioners of Voodoo believe in Jesus Christ and Mary.... well, in their own peculiar ways. 
> 
> 
> 
> Just a thought, because here you have people who were probably preached to by Christian Missionaries and this is what happens.  They accept Jesus into their life, but they don't abandon their old ways either.  
> 
> I'm not sure if Moos is in a position like this still appreciating old pagan ways while considering the Christianity Terry would like to see her accept.  I suppose this frustrates Terry if such people seem to be following 2 masters.  Well, there is precedent for this and some people will follow 2 or 10 Masters.  I can imagine some people get tired of dealing with Missions and will keep their old ways while adding both God and Allah or whatever.  They'll have the most elaborate altar to a pantheon of Abrahamic Gods if people will leave them alone.


Forgotten Women:Witches, Healers, And Medicine Women



> ...these "Forgotten Women" formed the spine of medical and medicinal knowledge. Women as caretakers, in charge of the care and feeding of their families, meant that the kitchen often became the lab. Concocting cures naturally evolved into distilling tinctures and other scientific explorations in the healing arts.
> 
> This has a contemporary resonance in projects like Jamie Oliver's Food Revolution, which encourages a return to getting our nutrition from food, as well as the ever-increasing interest in alternative medicine. In the 1500s though, "alternative" was the norm. "We've gotten so far away from our own healthcare," Laroche says ruefully. "We're so dependent on the medical establishment."
> 
> Another contemporary parallel: The rich could afford to go to a physician (although, as you'll see in the slideshow, that wasn't always the best care), but the poor went to the wise woman of the community. And lo! fears about witchcraft began to be exploited more for political than religious reasons...
> 
> 
> Pamphlets, like this one by John Cotta in 1616, fanned anxieties about who your healer was. Men were licensed by the College of Physicians (they didnt license women); midwives were licensed by the church; wisewomen took their chances and hoped nothing went wrong -- but they were essential to poor communities that couldnt afford a doctor. Being a physician was considered sanctioned by god (origins of the rep doctors get for having a god-complex?). Cotta was particularly invested in this idea, says Laroche; his pamphlet was taken from his first book that basically lambasted everyone else  kind of a PR manual for his own practice.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gerit-..._b_859230.html

Reposting from the pagan thread to give a bit of reference to the more realistic discussion of what many modern witches are embracing as a path and not the sensational Harry Potter or Malleus Maleficarum version. Many Christians and Christian churches have isolated themselves from the natural world. They shame and threaten those who are different or seek to find the Creator in the natural world. Many lives have been lost through the centuries because of irrational fearmongering by the so called faithful of the church.

----------


## westkyle

> *The Dangers of Wicca and Halloween
>  by Kimberly McRae
> 
> http://www.armorofgodbooks.com/?p=358
> 
> a born-again Christian saved directly from the grips of Satans WiccaThe lure of the Occult is a powerful tool used by Satan to draw young people and adults to him. Halloween, Samhain, is the most sacred holiday for Wiccans and should not be celebrated by Christians. Our teenage children need to be made aware of the occult in order to avoid the pitfalls that can so easily snare them. At the age of 16 I was introduced to Wicca and found the stories of a Wiccan friend fascinating.
> 
> 
> White Magic  The Initial Lure of Wicca
> ...


So... you're saying Jesus Christ was visited by 3 satanists?  Hmm, good to know.

----------


## Terry1

> Forgotten Women:Witches, Healers, And Medicine Women
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gerit-..._b_859230.html
> 
> Reposting from the pagan thread to give a bit of reference to the more realistic discussion of what many modern witches are embracing as a path and not the sensational Harry Potter or Malleus Maleficarum version. Many Christians and Christian churches have isolated themselves from the natural world. They shame and threaten those who are different or seek to find the Creator in the natural world. Many lives have been lost through the centuries because of irrational fearmongering by the so called faithful of the church.


This is Wicca--calling itself good while condemning the Church of Christ as "irrational fearmongers".  There is no difference between "white, green, blue, gray or black witches"--it's all pure undiluted evil that will eventually lead them further and further into the darkness and deeper into the occult.  

Read those testimonies from ex-wiccans--now redeemed by the blood of Christ moos.  Read what happened to those who were deceived into believing that they were practicing something "good" "wise" and so "misunderstood" as you claim.  I claim deliverance for you in the name of Christ that you will be set free from this bondage to evil.

----------


## moostraks

> This is Wicca--calling itself good while condemning the Church of Christ as "irrational fearmongers".  There is no difference between "white, green, blue, gray or black witches"--it's all pure undiluted evil that will eventually lead them further and further into the darkness and deeper into the occult.  
> 
> Read those testimonies from ex-wiccans--now redeemed by the blood of Christ moos.  Read what happened to those who were deceived into believing that they were practicing something "good" "wise" an
> d so "misunderstood" as you claim.  I claim deliverance for you in the name of Christ that you will be set free from this bondage to evil.


Wicca is not the same as saying witch and only people who have absolute and total ignorance of modern pagans would make such a statement. Wicca is a path for a portion of those who are witches and the community is incredibly diverse because unlike the Christian community there is no single text from which to base one's position. This is why you would need to listen to the individual and hear how they define their path.

You are irrationally fearmongering and thriving on creating a target to excuse your own inappropriate behavior. Know them by their fruits...

----------


## Terry1

> Wicca is not the same as saying witch and only people who have absolute and total ignorance of modern pagans would make such a statement. Wicca is a path for a portion of those who are witches and the community is incredibly diverse because unlike the Christian community there is no single text from which to base one's position. This is why you would need to listen to the individual and hear how they define their path.
> 
> You are irrationally fearmongering and thriving on creating a target to excuse your own inappropriate behavior. Know them by their fruits...


Again moos--what does Gods word tell you about witchcraft and paganism?  It tells you that it's all evil--no matter what form it presents itself in.

1 Corinthians 10:20

*20*No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.  *21*You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons.  *22*Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

----------


## Ronin Truth

The "*Apostle*" *Paul* Freely Quotes From *Pagan* Writings - Godlike *...*
www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1237840/pg1 ‎ 

*Paul* quotes freely from *Pagan* writings PDF Print E-mail [By: Tlallen] Euripides : 
kicks against the pricks came from Bacchae (about DIONYSUS ...

----------


## Terry1

> The "*Apostle*" *Paul* Freely Quotes From *Pagan* Writings - Godlike *...*www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1237840/pg1 ‎ 
> 
> Similar
> 
> 
> 
> *Paul* quotes freely from *Pagan* writings PDF Print E-mail [By: Tlallen] Euripides : 
> kicks against the pricks came from Bacchae (about DIONYSUS ...


Oh please--take your anti-Paul trash talk to another thread.  You're ridiculous--Lol   At least you do understand that paganism is of the devil while you're attempting to trash the Apostle Paul with it.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> *The Mystery of Mithraism―solved!
> *
> *PAUL AND THE PAGAN RELIGION OF MITHRAISM
> *
> Ken (Lionheart16)
> Though scholars at the turn of the 20th century understood that Christianity was heavily influenced by Mithraism, there is a recent trend among Christian apologists and revisionist academics to deny this historical debt to paganism. As a case in point, Christian historian Justo Gonzales makes the following remark to refute earlier scholarship on the subject in his 1970 book A History of Christian Thought, Volume I: 
> "Concerning the relationship between the mystery cults and Christianity, scholarly opinion has varied. During the first two or three decades of the twentieth century, it was thought that the mystery religions constituted a unity based on a common 'mystery theolgoy,' and that Christianity was simply one of them, or at most, a distinct religion is which the influence of the mysteries was greatly felt. According to the scholars of that time [e.g., W. Bousset, A. Loisy and R. Reitzenstein], Christianity had taken from the mysteries its rites of initiation----baptism, its sacramental meals---communion; its ascending stages of initiation----the orders; and a multitude of details needless to enumerate. But since then, a careful study has been made of the mysteries, and the conclusion reached by almost all scholars is that there was no such thing as a common 'mystery theology'---at least in the first century of our era. Quite the contrary, the mystery cults differed one from another so much that it is difficult even to explain the term 'mystery religion.' Moreover, the mysteries seem not to have reached their full development until the second and third centuries, which is the time when the majority of their characteristics in common with Christianity appear. It follows that such traits can be more easily explained as the influence of Christianity on the mysteries than the opposite, the more so when we learn that already in this period the pagan cults tried to imitate some of the characteristics of the dynamic new faith. 
> 
> Gonzales based his refutation on a chronological argument. It is a common belief that Mithraism did not enter the Roman world until well after Pauls lifetime. Alison B. Griffith, for example, says that the evidence also indicates that at least some inhabitants(or Rome and its port city Ostia) knew about Mithraism as early as the late first century CE, but that the cult did not enjoy a wide membership in either location until the middle of the second century CE. Similarly, the Britannica observes that there is little notice of the Persian god in the Roman world until the beginning of the 2nd century, but, from the year AD 136 onward, there are hundreds of dedicatory inscriptions to Mithra. Even much earlier, in the beginning of the 20th century, Albert Schweitzer argued that Apostle Paul could not possibly have had contact with what we know as the Roman mystery religion of Mithraism since it did not flourish until after his death around 67 AD. 
> ...


Source: [ http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=124&nav=messages&webtag=ab-ancienthist&tid=1052 ]

----------


## Ronin Truth

“If Christianity needed an Anti-Christ,* they need look no further than Paul”*
-- The English philosopher Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832)

 “We have already noted that every teaching of Jesus was already in the literature of the day….. *Paul, the founder of Christianity,* the writer of half the NT, almost neverquotes Jesus in his letters and writings." (_Professor Smith in his “The World Religions”, p 330)_

“Paul created a theology of which none but the vaguest warrants can be found in the words of Christ…..*Fundamentalism is the triumph of Paul over Christ.”*
--Will Durant (Philosopher)

*"Paul's words are not the Words of God.* They are the words of Paul- a vast difference."
--Bishop John S. Spong, Episcopal Bishop of Newark. (Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism, p. 104, Harper San Francisco, 1991)

"Paul insists that there is only one 'gospel of Christ' (Galatians 1:7), so why did later Christians accept as 'Scripture' four written gospels?" 
--Graham N. Stanton, “The Gospels and Jesus”, The Oxford Bible Series (1989), p.125

----------


## Terry1



----------


## acptulsa

I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.  A person can walk with God safely anywhere.  Evil is only dangerous if you're tempted.  Knowing about evil is a better defense against it than ignorance is.  Once a warning is posted, it seldom needs to be repeated.  And ninety-nine times out of a hundred--or more--a cat is just a cat.  Even if it is black.

But at least this is the right thread to discuss this in.  So, I don't have anything negative to say at all.

----------


## Deborah K

> 


Terry, I haven't read through the thread so this may already be answered but, what is your opinion about the Salem witch trials?

----------


## Terry1

> Terry, I haven't read through the thread so this may already be answered but, what is your opinion about the Salem witch trials?


Misguided Christians who didn't fight evil as they were instructed to by God's word.  This is still no defense for witchcraft and the occult.  We are instructed to fast and pray for those held in bondage to evil spirits.

We are to witness the word of God to them in order to bring them to repentance and win that soul for Christ.  I don't have much support in this as I can clearly see--this must be my cup then.

----------


## Deborah K

> Misguided Christians who didn't fight evil as they were instructed to by God's word.  This is still no defense for witchcraft and the occult.  We are instructed to fast and pray for those held in bondage to evil spirits.


Trust me, I don't defend witchcraft!  But by the same token, I'm careful not to implicate others who also do not defend its practices.  That video you posted makes me worry a little about the guy who posted it.  I know he means well, but we Christians need to learn from our historical mistakes, not repeat them.

----------


## Terry1

> Trust me, I don't defend witchcraft!  But by the same token, I'm careful not to implicate others who also do not defend its practices.  That video you posted makes me worry a little about the guy who posted it.  I know he means well, but we Christians need to learn from our historical mistakes, not repeat them.


What's your opinion of moos's defense and support of witchcraft then, while in the same post will quote the word of God?  She's already made the statement that she doesn't believe that Familiars are evil.  What's your opinion on that coming from a professed said "Christian"?

----------


## Deborah K

> What's your opinion of moos's defense and support of witchcraft then, while in the same post will quote the word of God?


Yeesh, I don't know!  I haven't spent much time in this forum to know.  I really like moos, so I hope it's just a misunderstanding.  Sorry for jumping in when I don't know the jist of the issue.  I tend to do that though.

----------


## Terry1

> Yeesh, I don't know!  I haven't spent much time in this forum to know.  I really like moos, so I hope it's just a misunderstanding.  Sorry for jumping in when I don't know the jist of the issue.  I tend to do that though.


Based upon what I've observed and witnessed already--I'd say what we're witnessing in this thread and another is a seriously demonically oppressed or possibly possessed individual.  

The evidence is clear when out of one side of the mouth posts that she doesn't believe that familiars are evil in support of witchcraft-then out of the other side of the mouth posts and quotes the word of God in defense of herself.   I don't know if there's any other Christians willing to step up and proclaim the word of God against this evil attempting to pass itself off as *Godly*.  I haven't seen any yet except Louise who actually stood her ground as a true believer in Christ.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> RJB, get a life hater. Almost every neg I have is from you, lol. I know I'm doing good.


That's because everyone else ignores you.  You'd get a lot more -reps if people paid attention to you. :P

----------


## Deborah K

> Based upon what I've observed and witnessed already--I'd say what we're witnessing in this thread and another is a seriously demonically oppressed or possibly possessed individual.  
> 
> The evidence is clear when out of one side of the mouth posts that she doesn't believe that familiars are evil in support of witchcraft-then out of the other side of the mouth posts and quotes the word of God in defense of herself.   I don't know if there's any other Christians willing to step up and proclaim the word of God against this evil attempting to pass itself off as *Godly*.  I haven't seen any yet except Louise who actually stood her ground as a true believer in Christ.


Well moos is a long-time member, supporter of RP, and believer in personal liberty.  I'm not clear on what her personal beliefs are with regard to our Creator, but if she's confused then she needs our help, not our condemnation, in my flea-bitten opinion.  I'm not willing at this point to believe she's demonically oppressed or possessed but if she is, then love is what will conquer what afflicts her.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Source: [ http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=124&nav=messages&webtag=ab-ancienthist&tid=1052 ]


LOL.   The Eucharist is older than the Roman Patriarchate and Paul's ministry, Ronin.  Now you're just being comical.

----------


## Terry1

> Well moos is a long-time member, supporter of RP, and believer in personal liberty.  I'm not clear on what her personal beliefs are with regard to our Creator, but if she's confused then she needs our help, not our condemnation, in my flea-bitten opinion.  I'm not willing at this point to believe she's demonically oppressed or possessed but if she is, then love is what will conquer what afflicts her.


Do you think that being a long time member and believer in liberty supersedes the truth in God's word?  Where is the condemnation then in exposing lies and deception on the part of someone professing Christ and advocating witchcraft at the same time?  If it's alright for moos to post her evil crap--then it should be even more justified for opinions of other Christians coming against that as well.  So where is the condemnation then?  Have I lied or spoken anything untrue?

----------


## westkyle

> Have I lied or spoken anything untrue?


I know of at least one thing.  Your belief that the occult is purely evil.

The occult may not fully coincide with the teachings of Jesus or Christianity, but that does not mean it is "evil".  Your premise is that all other religions are evil or controlled by "satan" in some way.  The thing is, no one here has the ability or proof to say that one religion is false and the other is true.  All we have are our own experiences.  Remember, Jesus was visited by three magi(wise men, aka wizards, aka magicians) on the day of his birth.

----------


## Terry1

> I know of at least one thing.  Your belief that the occult is purely evil.
> 
> The occult may not fully coincide with the teachings of Jesus or Christianity, but that does not mean it is "evil".  Your premise is that all other religions are evil or controlled by "satan" in some way.  The thing is, no one here has the ability or proof to say that one religion is false and the other is true.  All we have are our own experiences.  Remember, Jesus was visited by three magi(wise men, aka wizards, aka magicians) on the day of his birth.



You'd be wrong about that according to God's word too.  And I'm sure that there won't be any other Christians with any balls here to step up and tell you that either based upon the history of this thread already.  I've never minded being alone in these matters really.

----------


## westkyle

> You'd be wrong about that according to God's word too.  And I'm sure that there won't be any other Christians with any balls here to step up and tell you that either based upon the history of this thread already.  I've never minded being alone in these matters really.


It has nothing to do with "balls".  It has to do with providing proof with your assertions.  This conversation is based on "beliefs", not facts.  It boils down to whether you can prove that Christianity is the one and only true religion.  Evil has been done in the name of all religions and spiritual paths.  The ways and power of the occult are like guns, and other tools that can be used for violence.  The occult can be used responsibly, to bring you closer to "God" and become a better human being, or abused to do evil in this world.  Your arguments are akin to a liberals about gun control.  You want a monopoly on religion, and any other way of thinking or worship is "evil".

Your posts lack grace and the love that should be given to every brother and sister on this earth, no matter what their beliefs are.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> LOL.  The Eucharist is older than the Roman Patriarchate and Paul's ministry, Ronin. Now you're just being comical.






> *The Mystery of the Eucharist
> 
> Bartholomew f. Brewer, Ph.D.
> 
> *Of all the ancient dogmas of the Roman Catholic religion, the dogma of transubstantiation is the most wicked and satanic. It is the very heart of Romanism and the key to the so-called "sacrifice of the mass." Transubstantiation is Rome's most lucrative, powerful and fixed dogma. Certainly it is her most effective control device for the perpetuation of her gigantic corporation whose existence is maintained by sacraments administered by a supposedly divinely empowered priesthood.
> 
> *
> PAGAN ORIGIN
> *
> ...


http://mtc.org/eucharst.html

----------


## moostraks

> It has nothing to do with "balls".  It has to do with providing proof with your assertions.  This conversation is based on "beliefs", not facts.  It boils down to whether you can prove that Christianity is the one and only true religion.  Evil has been done in the name of all religions and spiritual paths.  The ways and power of the occult are like guns, and other tools that can be used for violence.  The occult can be used responsibly, to bring you closer to "God" and become a better human being, or abused to do evil in this world.  Your arguments are akin to a liberals about gun control.  You want a monopoly on religion, and any other way of thinking or worship is "evil".
> 
> Your posts lack grace and the love that should be given to every brother and sister on this earth, no matter what their beliefs are.


Well said...

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> http://mtc.org/eucharst.html


This is not only incorrect, but nothing more than editorializing.  And your deliberate misquoting me does nothing to advance your cause. :P

----------


## Deborah K

> Do you think that being a long time member and believer in liberty supersedes the truth in God's word?  Where is the condemnation then in exposing lies and deception on the part of someone professing Christ and advocating witchcraft at the same time?  If it's alright for moos to post her evil crap--then it should be even more justified for opinions of other Christians coming against that as well.  So where is the condemnation then?  Have I lied or spoken anything untrue?


I don't know if you have, Terry.  I don't scrutinize your posts. I doubt it though.  And I don't see anything wrong with focusing on wrongheaded thinking - as long as it doesn't turn into a personal attack.

----------


## Terry1

> I don't know if you have, Terry.  I don't scrutinize your posts. I doubt it though.  And I don't see anything wrong with focusing on wrongheaded thinking - as long as it doesn't turn into a personal attack.


Now she's claiming that I "wished death upon her"--LOL  Yeah--it's getting intense because the nature of the spirit is showing itself.

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## westkyle

> It has everything to do with balls.  There's just some piss-ant cowards for Jesus who care more about their status and popularity amongst their RPF buddies than they do standing up for the truth in God's word.  Instead--they'd rather pretend that none of this exists and they're more enlightened amongst their own peers just because others enjoy the company of like-minded idiots and dumb asses without a clue.  God and the Apostles said the same thing in a different language.


Maybe they know they can't prove their claims in regards to Christianity to being the one and only non-evil religion.  Or maybe they believe Christianity really is the only way to know God, but are like Ron Paul, and have tolerance and respect for others. 

Grow up.  This is an internet forum.  Always remember that there are real human beings behind these user-names.  It is a big thing to go around and call other people's religion and spiritual paths evil, and not backing it up with real evidence.  You dishonor the great personage of Jesus Christ with rude comments like yours.

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## Deborah K

> It has everything to do with balls.  There's just some piss-ant cowards for Jesus who care more about their status and popularity amongst their RPF buddies than they do standing up for the truth in God's word.  Instead--they'd rather pretend that none of this exists and they're more enlightened amongst their own peers just because others enjoy the company of like-minded idiots and dumb asses without a clue.  God and the Apostles said the same thing in a different language.


Terry, Paul tells Timothy this, in his second letter to him:




> 23Again I say, don't get involved in foolish arguments which only upset people and make them angry. (Remember Nang used to do that to us, and Sola gets busted for it all the time),24God's people must not be quarrelsome, they must be gentle, patient teachers of those who are wrong. 25Be humble when you are trying to teach those who are mixed up concerning the truth. For if you talk meekly and courteously to them they are more likely, with God's help, to turn away from their wrong ideas and believe what is true. 26Then they will come to their senses and escape Satan's trap of slavery to sin which he uses to catch them whenever he likes, and then they can begin doing the will of God.


Terry, believe it or not, one of the things I love about you is your abrasiveness.  I think it keeps people on their toes, livens up this forum, and it may even help to polish the ragged edges off certain people.  But the above comment is vicious.  I hope you realize that.

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## Terry1

> Terry, Paul tells Timothy this, in his second letter to him:
> 
> 
> 
> Terry, believe it or not, one of the things I love about you is your abrasiveness.  I think it keeps people on their toes, livens up this forum, and it may even help to polish the ragged edges off certain people.  But the above comment is vicious.  I hope you realize that.


I do tend to go over the top once in a while when I get emotional--LOL  Yeah--I realize that a lot of that was uncalled for and I do apologize for getting too honest and abrasive.

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## Ronin Truth

https://www.google.com/search?q=paga...gbv=2&oq=&gs_l=

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## Deborah K

> I do tend to go over the top once in a while when I get emotional--LOL  Yeah--I realize that a lot of that was uncalled for and I do apologize for getting too honest and abrasive.


Well we all do it from time to time.  And you know what they say:  It's not what you say, but how you say it.

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## Terry1

> Well we all do it from time to time.  And you know what they say:  It's not what you say, but how you say it.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Deborah K again.   Thanks Deb.  I do need to be reeled back in once in a while--I won't deny that either.

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## Ronin Truth

Just as Judas was indwelled by Satan to betray Jesus, Paul was indwelled by Satan to destroy Christianity! Paul taught ANOTHER Gospel! Why else did Constantine and the Pagan leaders take out the books of the disciples and put in Paul's! To lead YOU away from the truth and into a FALSE Gospel!

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## Ronin Truth



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## Ronin Truth



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## Terry1

> OK, that's it, absolutely no more split pea soup for you.


That's not me--you're confused dude.  Run on over and flame the Apostle Paul some more.

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## Terry1

Looks to me like Sarah good was a witch after all, but hanging her was wrong.  They should've just kicked her out of the village instead.  Misguided Christians--evil witches--witch is worse.

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## moostraks

> ...Good was condemned to hang but was pardoned until the birth of her child. Her daughter Dorcas was accused of witchery and was imprisoned for over seven months. Although the child of six years was eventually released on bond, she was psychologically damaged for the rest of her life. Good's infant died in prison with her before Good was hanged. Her execution occurred on Tuesday July 19, 1692. According to local tradition, when Good stood at the gallows prepared to die she was asked once more by Rev. Nicholas Noyes, assistant minister in the Salem church, to confess and thus save her immortal soul. Far from confessing, Good is said to have screamed, "You're a liar! I'm no more a witch than you are a wizard! If you take my life away, God will give you blood to drink!" It was this constant refusal to confess that Bernard Rosenthal believes led Good to the Gallows, even more so than all of the accusations against her.
> 
> 
> The way in which Good has been portrayed in literature is worth mentioning because it sheds light upon how the Salem Witch Trials have been popularly imagined and how the accused witches were and are viewed today. Good is always depicted as an old hag with white hair and wrinkled skin. She is often said to be sixty or seventy years of age by the same writers who clearly state that she was pregnant and had a six-year-old daughter. Even accounts from Salem Villagers and magistrates at the time refer to her as an old nuisance, hag, and bed-ridden. How did such a misconception arise? Perhaps her hard life did have such a physical effect on Good that she did appear extremely aged. On the other hand, witches are described in literature then and now as being old wicked women. If Good was to represent the typical witch worthy of execution, then it is not surprising that all of the stereotypes would be accordingly attached. Good was a marginal woman and no doubt a nuisance to her neighbors. However, the Salem trials were conducted unfairly, with a presumption of guilt, and little evidence. Marginality is not worthy of hanging, and Good was never proved to be nor did she confess to be a witch.


http://salem.lib.virginia.edu/people/good.html

Within the pagan community many come after horrid experiences with mainstream "Christians". Another modern witch would understand the identity with the crone figure because she represents the marganilzed such as Sarah Good. A modern pagan would take up the path in defense of those who died being called witches. It is to in part thumb one's nose at the hysteria of hypocritical "Christians" and to redeem the identities of those who were unjustly persecuted. Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. 

(Hint-there are no rules to being a modern witch unlike claiming to follow Wicca which is a more specific modern path which usually entails a usage of spell work and circle casting for most who claim to be Wiccans)

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## westkyle

> Looks to me like Sarah good was a witch after all, but hanging her was wrong.  They should've just kicked her out of the village instead.  Misguided Christians--evil witches--witch is worse.


Yeah, lets deny someone their rights of freedom of expression and private property by kicking them out of town, because their religion is different than mine.  Way to represent Jesus and Christianity.  America?  Forget that, crap.  CHRISTIANITY, $#@! YEAH!

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## Terry1

> http://salem.lib.virginia.edu/people/good.html
> 
> Within the pagan community many come after horrid experiences with mainstream "Christians". Another modern witch would understand the identity with the crone figure because she represents the marganilzed such as Sarah Good. A modern pagan would take up the path in defense of those who died being called witches. It is to in part thumb one's nose at the hysteria of hypocritical "Christians" and to redeem the identities of those who were unjustly persecuted. Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. 
> 
> (Hint-there are no rules to being a modern witch unlike claiming to follow Wicca which is a more specific modern path which usually entails a usage of spell work and circle casting for most who claim to be Wiccans)


moos--witchcraft is evil in any form or shape--whether it appears to be good or chooses to reveal it's true evil nature.  You can't run about blaming all Christians because some were bad.  Bad Christians are not the justification for claiming witches are good or wise or misunderstood.  It's evil and this is what God's word tells you.  And why you run around this forum pretending to be a Christian while supporting witchcraft is both a mental and spiritual problem as I see it.

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## Ronin Truth

> That's not me--you're confused dude. Run on over and flame the Apostle Paul some more.


I know.  It's Linda Blair.  I saw the movie when it first came out.  

I'm an equal opportunity Paul flamer.  Lucky you!

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## Terry1

> Yeah, lets deny someone their rights of freedom of expression and private property by kicking them out of town, because their religion is different than mine.  Way to represent Jesus and Christianity.  America?  Forget that, crap.  CHRISTIANITY, $#@! YEAH!


We're talking about the difference between witchcraft and Christianity--why don't you stfu until you get a clue.

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## westkyle

> We're talking about the difference between witchcraft and Christianity--why don't you stfu until you get a clue.


Nice cheek turn, Mrs. Christian lady.  If you can read behind the lines; I was talking about the difference between witchcraft and Christianity as well.  From reading your comments, Christianity is a religion of fear, intolerance, and a general hatred for non-believers.  Hmm, sounds a lot like ISIS as well.  That'll really convert some non-believers or change their way of thinking.

Keep representin' girl!  /sarcasm

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## Terry1

> Nice cheek turn, Mrs. Christian lady.  If you can read behind the lines; I was talking about the difference between witchcraft and Christianity as well.  From reading your comments, Christianity is a religion of fear, intolerance, and a general hatred for non-believers.  Hmm, sounds a lot like ISIS as well.  That'll really convert some non-believers or change their way of thinking.
> 
> Keep representin' girl!  /sarcasm


Let's face it--God doesn't want some dumb-asses because they don't want Him either.  No godless heathen is going to hold me hostage to their standard as to what denotes a "Christian".  Be gone now--go play in the mud puddle. Thanks

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## Ronin Truth

Speaking of getting a clue, who else is thoroughly enjoying the hilarious glaring cognitive dissonance and blatant logical disconnect between the vilification of any pagan worship and the adoration of lying pagan Pharisee Paul's wide majority presence among the New Testament books for ~1,600 years?

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## Terry1

> Speaking of getting a clue, who else is thoroughly enjoying the glaring cognitive dissonance and blatant logical disconnect between the vilification of any pagan worship and the adoration of lying pagan Pharisee Paul's wide majority presence among the New Testament books for ~1,600 years?


You're just obsessed with the Apostle Paul aren't you. What did he say that pissed you off to this extent?  I gotta say--this thread certainly attracted the Christian haters.  Hater's are gonna hate.

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## Ronin Truth

> You're just obsessed with the Apostle Paul aren't you. What did he say that pissed you off to this extent? I gotta say--this thread certainly attracted the Christian haters.


  No it's Jesus actually, as it should be.  All the stuff that you obviously haven't even bothered to read or really question or understand that he was, did and said.

Without really any reasonable hope or expectation of an intelligible answer, I'll try once more. 

Yeah, and you ARE a Paulinist/Christian if you ever take any of Paul's words over those of the real apostles and Jesus.

If all of Paul that contradicts and conflicts with Jesus and the real apostles were removed from the Bible, what would be lost?

If all of Paul that agrees and supports Jesus and the real apostles is kept in the Bible, what would be gained?

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## moostraks

> moos--witchcraft is evil in any form or shape--whether it appears to be good or chooses to reveal it's true evil nature.  You can't run about blaming all Christians because some were bad.  Bad Christians are not the justification for claiming witches are good or wise or misunderstood.  It's evil and this is what God's word tells you.  And why you run around this forum pretending to be a Christian while supporting witchcraft is both a mental and spiritual problem as I see it.


I'm not pretending to be anything. I am who I am and the path I follow is Love. Your unwillingness to look at the language issue and understand people through hearing what is being said to you is your own problem. 

People can declare themselves to be any title they choose but it is the heart that will separate the sheep from the goats. Know them by their fruits.

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## Terry1

> I'm not pretending to be anything. I am who I am and the path I follow is Love. Your unwillingness to look at the language issue and understand people through hearing what is being said to you is your own problem. 
> 
> People can declare themselves to be any title they choose but it is the heart that will separate the sheep from the goats. Know them by their fruits.


Where was all of that "love" when you were hijacking threads whining about me to TER?  Even when I ignored you--still you didn't stop and refused to take it private.  You wanted to publicly flame me and you finally got my attention didn't you.

Nah--I'd say that it's not "love" that motivates you--it's hatred, animosity, evil conniving BS that drives you because that's the nature of your spirit and probably why you zoned in on me in the first place.  The Spirit is able to discern the nature of those opposing spirits.  And yours is one that will testify against the word of God by supporting and defending witchcraft in one breath and then use God's word in attempts to justify your belief and behavior in the next.  You are messed up spiritually and the truth is that you have no idea what to call yourself, because you don't even know and that's just plain sad.

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## westkyle

> Let's face it--God doesn't want some dumb-asses because they don't want Him either.  No godless heathen is going to hold me hostage to their standard as to what denotes a "Christian".  Be gone now--go play in the mud puddle. Thanks


Forgive my idea of "Christian" standards.  I try to hold them as high as possible to promote people becoming the most honorable, kind, and loving people as humanly possible.  Ironically this "mud puddle" is your mind.  Some like to say Satan is the personification of the devil.  Since your comments consist of hate and violence toward your fellow human beings I would say this: look in the mirror and see the true form of Satan.  He lives through your negative thoughts, words, and actions.

I hope the loving Christ pours through your heart, mind, and soul to destroy your demons.

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## Terry1

> No it's Jesus actually, as it should be.  All the stuff that you obviously haven't even bothered to read or really question or understand that he was, did and said.
> 
> Without really any reasonable hope or expectation of an intelligible answer, I'll try once more. 
> 
> Yeah, and you ARE a Paulinist/Christian if you ever take any of Paul's words over those of the real apostles and Jesus.
> 
> If all of Paul that contradicts and conflicts with Jesus and the real apostles were removed from the Bible, what would be lost?
> 
> If all of Paul that agrees and supports Jesus and the real apostles is kept in the Bible, what would be gained?


The reformers didn't understand Paul's epistles either--but instead of them all together denying it--they created another Gospel to conform to what they thought Paul was saying.  Hence the Calvinists and their TULIP, the Baptists with their "OSAS, the Lutherans with their "faith in faith", The Assembly of God's with their "WWJD and you must speak in tongues to be a Christian", The Seventh Day Advents with their "legalism to Jewish law" and so forth.  I'm not saying that the Catholic's have it all right either, but what the Catholics do understand are the epistles of St. Paul--hence they've got the gospel of Jesus Christ right and on the mark.

The Apostle Paul was the greatest of the Apostles and not one single thing he taught has ever been contrary to anything in Gods word that I have seen.  Everything reconciles with the word of God if one has been given the spiritual sight to see it with.

Paul is probably the most misunderstood--yet the greatest Apostle for that same reason because if a true Christians understands what Paul is saying--then they also understand the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.  God chose Paul for a good reason.  His epistles aren't for the milk-fed babes in Christ--they're for the meat eaters of the word.

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## Terry1

> Forgive my idea of "Christian" standards.  I try to hold them as high as possible to promote people becoming the most honorable, kind, and loving people as humanly possible.  Ironically this "mud puddle" is your mind.  Some like to say Satan is the personification of the devil.  Since your comments consist of hate and violence toward your fellow human beings I would say this: look in the mirror and see the true form of Satan.  He lives through your negative thoughts, words, and actions.
> 
> I hope the loving Christ pours through your heart, mind, and soul to destroy your demons.


LOL--I've had many a Godless heathen try to preach Gods word back to me too.  Try harder--it's not workin for ya.   Besides the only haters I see here are attacking the Christians.  This thread seems to be a magnet for you all.

All I had to do is quote Gods word on the evil of paganism and witchcraft and you all flocked to this thread like bees to honey calling me a "hater", Lol.

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## heavenlyboy34

> The reformers didn't understand Paul's epistles either--but instead of them all together denying it--they created another Gospel to conform to what they thought Paul was saying.  Hence the Calvinists and their TULIP, the Baptists with their "OSAS, the Lutherans with their "faith in faith", The Assembly of God's with their "WWJD and you must speak in tongues to be a Christian", The Seventh Day Advents with their "legalism to Jewish law" and so forth.  I'm not saying that the Catholic's have it all right either, but what the Catholics do understand are the epistles of St. Paul--hence they've got the gospel of Jesus Christ right and on the mark.
> 
> The Apostle Paul was the greatest of the Apostles and not one single thing he taught has ever been contrary to anything in Gods word that I have seen.  Everything reconciles with the word of God if one has been given the spiritual sight to see it with.


I prefer St Matthew.  But there are 70+, most of whom I'm not familiar with, so it's hard to decide. :/  Why do you pick Paul?  /curious

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## Terry1

> I prefer St Matthew.  But there are 70+, most of whom I'm not familiar with, so it's hard to decide. :/  Why do you pick Paul?  /curious


I chose Paul because his epistles get right down to the meat of what faith is and how it works and that's where the Protestant reformers took a left turn when they should've turned right.  Because without some of these protestant denominations understanding how faith works--which we've seen in is a HUGE issue with them and why they believe that faith alone is all that's necessary and they can't understand that "good works" are the essential element of faith.  This is where the reformers fell off the turnip truck in their quest to separate themselves from the Catholic church.  

Think of it this way--if the Baptists understood how faith works--they wouldn't believe that one is once saved always saved.  The Calvinists wouldn't believe that they're already chosen in this life and the Lutheran's would understand that their "faith in faith" doctrine is flawed without the element of good works of faith.  I could go on and on, but the crux of the problem that I see with many Protestant denominations today is their lack of understanding how faith works and what all that entails--otherwise we wouldn't see so many teaching such diverse doctrines apart from one another as we do.

When they split from the Catholic church--they literally lost their way by changing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  They got their freedom--but they corrupted the word of God at the same time.  They should have been satisfied with their freedom, but that wasn't enough--they went even further to write their own bibles and corrupt the Gospel teaching.

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## Ronin Truth

> The reformers didn't understand Paul's epistles either--but instead of them all together denying it--they created another Gospel to conform to what they thought Paul was saying. Hence the Calvinists and their TULIP, the Baptists with their "OSAS, the Lutherans with their "faith in faith", The Assembly of God's with their "WWJD and you must speak in tongues to be a Christian", The Seventh Day Advents with their "legalism to Jewish law" and so forth. I'm not saying that the Catholic's have it all right either, but what the Catholics do understand are the epistles of St. Paul--hence they've got the gospel of Jesus Christ right and on the mark.
> 
> The Apostle Paul was the greatest of the Apostles and not one single thing he taught has ever been contrary to anything in Gods word that I have seen. Everything reconciles with the word of God if one has been given the spiritual sight to see it with.
> 
> Paul is probably the most misunderstood--yet the greatest Apostle for that same reason because if a true Christians understands what Paul is saying--then they also understand the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. God chose Paul for a good reason. His epistles aren't for the milk-fed babes in Christ--they're for the meat eaters of the word.


Thank you for the thoughtful and not hysterical reply. We still disagree. Occam's razor would suggest that the simplest answer is most likely the one closest to the truth. 

For me, "misunderstood" just doesn't even begin to explain, excuse and account for Paul's contradictions with Jesus and the real apostles.

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