# Liberty Movement > Grassroots Central >  Why aren't we all members of the Free State Project?

## mport1

If only a small portion of Ron Paul supporters signed up we could reach the project's goal.  Wouldn't you want to move if 20,000 other liberty activists were going to be there?  Sadly it is looking like the federal government is beyond repair and I think concentrating our efforts in one state would have a much higher chance of success.




> The Free State Project is an agreement among 20,000 pro-liberty activists to move to New Hampshire, where they will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of government is the protection of life, liberty, and property. The success of the Project would likely entail reductions in taxation and regulation, reforms at all levels of government, to expand individual rights and free markets, and a restoration of constitutional federalism, demonstrating the benefits of liberty to the rest of the nation and the world.


http://www.freestateproject.org






Other FSP oriented links:
http://www.freetalklive.com
http://www.nhliberty.org/
http://freekeene.com/
http://freeconcord.org/
http://nhfree.com/
http://ridleyreport.com/

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## slothman

I'm not because I can't move for many reasons.
I am registered at their forum though.

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## haaaylee

i'm going with the cost of moving being an issue........... maybe if we could all have guaranteed jobs? find me one and i'll move.

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## constitutional

Ha, after the NH primary... I have my doubts about NH ever being "free" again.

[edit] I take that statement back. Lets keep on fighting folks. Lets not lose hope...

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## Sematary

Not everyone, including myself, can just pack up and leave. However, in a few years, when the real estate market turns back around, perhaps I can sell what I have and move.

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## LibertiORDeth

> ha, after the nh primary... I have my doubts about nh ever being "free" again.


+1776

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## Kalifornia

Because I dont want to live in New Hampshire.  I dont cross the mississippi.

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## yongrel

Frankly, because I hate New England.

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## Jeremy

> Frankly, because I hate New England.


Um.... you live in New England already.

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## yongrel

> Um.... you live in New England already.


Only in the summer. DC for me.

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## Brian Defferding

I would love to join, but I'm a born and bred cheesehead through and through.  Plus, I don't want to be far from my family.  I'll be rooting for the Free State Project, but it will be from the bleachers.

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## BuddyRey

I'm strongly...and I mean _strongly_ considering the move.  The only thing holding me here is my family and their reverence for the deep roots we have here.  Plus, I'll admit I'm sort of dreading the transition to sub-zero winters!!!  :::insert chattering teeth emoticon here::::

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## muh_roads

> Ha, after the NH primary... I have my doubts about NH ever being "free" again.


Anti-War Republican vote going to McCain FTL.  Live Free or Die (100 years in Iraq)

_"awww, but McCain came to my townhall meeting and rubbed my pee pee...even though he's a warhawk, I still gotta vote for him."_

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## mport1

NH and no other state is currently "free."  The point is to get enough liberty lovers there to make it free.

Also, remember that you don't have to move now for it, but wouldn't it be worth any inconveniences to make the move when the 20,000 goal is reached?  Even after that you have a 5 year window to straighten everything out and find a job.  I think a little sacrifice is worth our freedom, we have already given so much of our time and money to the RP cause.

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## dirknb@hotmail.com

There is no way I would move to New Hampshire.  Nice state, but I prefer being able to kayak in January without a wetsuit.

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## Zack

I've always had a link to their website in my signature because I support it very much, but I'm not a pledged member, since I couldn't ever afford to make that happen.  I'll load up everything I own in a uhaul and start driving within 48 hours if somebody out there wants to give me a job and a paycheck advance while I'm still "in between jobs" here in Cali! :-O

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## votefreedomfirst

I plan on moving within a year or so, possibly to Grafton, NH as part of the Free Town Project, although that might not be possible due to it being in the middle of nowhere (and the accompanying lack of employment opportunities).

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## ShowMeLiberty

> I would love to join, but I'm a born and bred cheesehead through and through.  Plus, I don't want to be far from my family.  I'll be rooting for the Free State Project, but it will be from the bleachers.


Heh. Having been born and raised in Wisconsin, I've had enough of long, sub-zero winters and all that snow.  New Hampshire would only be moreso. 

Places like Wisconsin and New England are beautiful vacation destinations, but not places I personally want to live. Besides, freedom shouldn't mean everyone who wants it has to relocate to some tiny, out-of-the-way place. Sounds too much like a "free speech zone" to me. Let's keep trying to make every state a truly free state again.

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## Brian Defferding

> I plan on moving within a year or so, possibly to Grafton, NH as part of the Free Town Project, although that might not be possible due to it being in the middle of nowhere (and the accompanying lack of employment opportunities).


I really like that idea.  That's something I could participate in my state.

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## Brian Defferding

> Heh. Having been born and raised in Wisconsin, I've had enough of long, sub-zero winters and all that snow.  New Hampshire would only be moreso. 
> 
> Places like Wisconsin and New England are beautiful vacation destinations, but not places I personally want to live. Besides, freedom shouldn't mean everyone who wants it has to relocate to some tiny, out-of-the-way place. Sounds too much like a "free speech zone" to me. Let's keep trying to make every state a truly free state again.


I know what you mean about the winters, I usually like the cold, but driving in it just puts me on edge all the time.  My commute last winter was about 25 miles, virtually every day I was risking my ass to get to work and back; I moved much closer now thank goodness.

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## ShowMeLiberty

> I know what you mean about the winters, I usually like the cold, but driving in it just puts me on edge all the time.  My commute last winter was about 25 miles, virtually every day I was risking my ass to get to work and back; I moved much closer now thank goodness.


 I remember way too many winter mornings wondering if the car would start so I could get to work that day. 

WhrrWhrrWhrrWhrr...WhrrWhrrWhrr...Whrr...Wh.... click..click.

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## Ozwest

> Ha, after the NH primary... I have my doubts about NH ever being "free" again.


Couldn't agree with you more Amistad.

Every time I think of the New Hampshire primary, it feels like a swift kick to the gonads.

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## Brian Defferding

> I remember way too many winter mornings wondering if the car would start so I could get to work that day. 
> 
> WhrrWhrrWhrrWhrr...WhrrWhrrWhrr...Whrr...Wh.... click..click.


Ha ha ha!  No kidding.  You start talking to your car, carressing the dashboard like an old horse finding its muster to ride again.  "Come on baby, you can do it.  I'll be good to you..."

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## tonesforjonesbones

I have changed my opinion on the Free STate Project due to the recent events with the band Pokerface.  Evidently , the Project has been corrupted because you now can't talk about the zionist neo cons or our entanglements with Israel.  They cancelled Pokerface due to comments on their website forum.  So, they are playing the politically correct game...which will get this movement absolutely nowhere.  Tones

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## Brian Defferding

> I have changed my opinion on the Free STate Project due to the recent events with the band Pokerface.  Evidently , the Project has been corrupted because you now can't talk about the zionist neo cons or our entanglements with Israel.  They cancelled Pokerface due to comments on their website forum.  So, they are playing the politically correct game...which will get this movement absolutely nowhere.  Tones


To be fair, the Free State Project has nothing to do with Israel or foreign relations though.  It's more of a localized political effort.

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## tonesforjonesbones

Well, here's the deal.  If you can't talk about agenda's that are not healthy for the USA because it offends someone on your internet forum...it's not worth bothering with.  We have to be able to speak truth..and even locally.  Pokerface got blowback for speaking the truth about entangling alliences..and that is part of  what we are trying to avoid..I think.  Pokerface has been playing at these functions for years...now all of the sudden because  a jewish fella is on the board of the Free State project they get cancelled because they spoke out about Israel...I'm just not ok with that.  tones

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## mport1

> Let's keep trying to make every state a truly free state again.


That would be great, but it isn't working.  With our limited resources it would be much more effective to concentrate our efforts in one area.  Also, the hope is that one we have success in NH, other states will follow our lead seeing the benefits of freedom.

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## ARealConservative

It is too Libertarian of an agenda for me.

I want to return to the rule of law we do have, not create a new rule of law.

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## FSP-Rebel

> Well, here's the deal.  If you can't talk about agenda's that are not healthy for the USA because it offends someone on your internet forum...it's not worth bothering with.  We have to be able to speak truth..and even locally.  Pokerface got blowback for speaking the truth about entangling alliences..and that is part of  what we are trying to avoid..I think.  Pokerface has been playing at these functions for years...now all of the sudden because  a jewish fella is on the board of the Free State project they get cancelled because they spoke out about Israel...I'm just not ok with that.  tones


It would be bad publicity for the FSP to knowingly book a band that has anti-semite views, just like if they were anti-black, hispanic and on down the line. I feel for Dennis, one of the main band members... But, unlike RP distancing himself from those racist comments in his journal, Dennis keeps being an apologist for his buddy w/o fiercely telling him he's wrong and/or setting him straight. I'm all for free speech, but I can ostracize you for saying things that are distasteful--that's part of reality.

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## Flash

I live in Massachusetts so I would like to move to NH someday. I like thier independence party:
http://republicofnh.org/

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## FSP-Rebel

And to the few of you who think the FSP failed the Revolution, I have to say I briefly agreed with that assessment for like a week after the primary. However, one must remember that the FSP is still in its infancy. The project officially goes into motion once 20,000 signers are achieved--we just cleared 8500. Though, originally it was thought that 20,000 movers would be necessary. Now, a reassessment of the quality of activists on the ground proves that we're already making great strides for liberty with the 555 activists that have already moved (many more have actually moved but haven't updated the counter, usually because many have signed up years ago and have forgotten their passwords in order to update). Now, it seems that 2000-5000 activists is all that will be needed to really swing NH into a real Libertarian state.

NH has 161 Pro-Freedom candidates running for state rep, check the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance nhliberty.org for the official list. How many Pro-Freedom candidates for  the state house does your state have? A handful? Does your state have a group of activists that read and rate every bill that comes before the legislature before the reps even get a chance to see the bills? The NHLA also gives out a yearly report card with each rep's liberty rating, there were 17 reps who achieved A+ status. Do any of you have 17 full-blown Libertarians in your legislature?

Which brings me to the point of NH and the RP Revolution. On a national level, the media plays a mega role in the Prez election. Did we all forget how the media treated Paul leading up to the primary and the racist deal they brought up like the day or two before? The prize on the National level is too great and the elite won't let it go, yall should know. 

In regards to those of you who don't like the weather in NH... The Founding Fathers pledged their Lives, their Fortunes and their sacred honor pushing for Independence from the biggest country on earth knowing that if they were caught they'd be hung (many FF's did lose property, fortunes, family members, etc). The Continental Army and the militia endured many a cold winter, especially during Valley Forge. Many soldiers preferred to go home rather than spend a winter freezing in a tent with few blankets, shoes, clothing and rations--but they still stayed the course. Those are what I call Real Patriots. I don't see that same set of cajones from many here on this forum which is dedicated to RP and the ideals of the Founding Fathers. Are you summer patriots only? Sam Adams says,_ The liberties of our country, the freedom of our civil constitution, are worth defending at all hazards; and it is our duty to defend them against all attacks ... It will bring an everlasting mark of infamy on the present generation, enlightened as it is, if we should suffer them to be wrested from us by violence without a struggle, or be cheated out of them by the artifices of false and designing men._ 
The concept of heat has been invented, so I see no excuse. I do understand that many have families and might get homesick being away from them (if you can't persuade them to move for liberty). Somehow, I still think the Founding Fathers and their team of Patriots would look down upon folks that make excuses. Some think that FSPers should be finding them jobs or some of them may be concerned about whether or not they'll still be able to make the exact same living in NH... To them I say, again from Sam Adams... *If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.* 

We'll see who the Real Patriots are...

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## mport1

> and to the few of you who think the fsp failed the revolution, i have to say i briefly agreed with that assessment for like a week after the primary. However, one must remember that the fsp is still in its infancy. The project officially goes into motion once 20,000 signers are achieved--we just cleared 8500. Though, originally it was thought that 20,000 movers would be necessary. Now, a reassessment of the quality of activists on the ground proves that we're already making great strides for liberty with the 555 activists that have already moved (many more have actually moved but haven't updated the counter, usually because many have signed up years ago and have forgotten their passwords in order to update). Now, it seems that 2000-5000 activists is all that will be needed to really swing nh into a real libertarian state.
> 
> Nh has 161 pro-freedom candidates running for state rep, check the new hampshire liberty alliance nhliberty.org for the official list. How many pro-freedom candidates for  the state house does your state have? A handful? Does your state have a group of activists that read and rate every bill that comes before the legislature before the reps even get a chance to see the bills? The nhla also gives out a yearly report card with each rep's liberty rating, there were 17 reps who achieved a+ status. Do any of you have 17 full-blown libertarians in your legislature?
> 
> Which brings me to the point of nh and the rp revolution. On a national level, the media plays a mega role in the prez election. Did we all forget how the media treated paul leading up to the primary and the racist deal they brought up like the day or two before? The prize on the national level is too great and the elite won't let it go, yall should know. 
> 
> In regards to those of you who don't like the weather in nh... The founding fathers pledged their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor pushing for independence from the biggest country on earth knowing that if they were caught they'd be hung (many ff's did lose property, fortunes, family members, etc). The continental army and the militia endured many a cold winter, especially during valley forge. Many soldiers preferred to go home rather than spend a winter freezing in a tent with few blankets, shoes, clothing and rations--but they still stayed the course. Those are what i call real patriots. I don't see that same set of cajones from many here on this forum which is dedicated to rp and the ideals of the founding fathers. Are you summer patriots only? Sam adams says,_ the liberties of our country, the freedom of our civil constitution, are worth defending at all hazards; and it is our duty to defend them against all attacks ... It will bring an everlasting mark of infamy on the present generation, enlightened as it is, if we should suffer them to be wrested from us by violence without a struggle, or be cheated out of them by the artifices of false and designing men._ 
> the concept of heat has been invented, so i see no excuse. I do understand that many have families and might get homesick being away from them (if you can't persuade them to move for liberty). Somehow, i still think the founding fathers and their team of patriots would look down upon folks that make excuses. Some think that fspers should be finding them jobs or some of them may be concerned about whether or not they'll still be able to make the exact same living in nh... To them i say, again from sam adams... *if ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.* 
> 
> we'll see who the real patriots are...


+100

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## error

From my understanding of the Pokerface situation, they were asked not to come because of overt racism. The FSP doesn't want racists or even the appearance of racism, and Pokerface failed to allay the FSP's concerns about racist statements made by band members.

The FSP's official position is that: "Anyone who promotes violence, racial hatred, or bigotry is not welcome."

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## error

Now for something important.

Sure, we didn't win the primary in New Hampshire, despite having all kinds of people on the ground here from all over the country. Blaming this on the FSP misses the mark, though. The real reason Ron Paul lost NH was that the campaign screwed up. We even warned them, months before the primary, that they were going to lose and needed to change their strategy. They did not. That RP got as high as he did in New Hampshire, despite the campaign screwing up, is a testament to the hard work of FSP members and OLFOD participants who dropped their lives for a month or more to come here. But we always knew we couldn't do it alone, and the campaign failed to come through and do what was necessary to win.

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## Ozwest

> Now for something important.
> 
> Sure, we didn't win the primary in New Hampshire, despite having all kinds of people on the ground here from all over the country. Blaming this on the FSP misses the mark, though. The real reason Ron Paul lost NH was that the campaign screwed up. We even warned them, months before the primary, that they were going to lose and needed to change their strategy. They did not. That RP got as high as he did in New Hampshire, despite the campaign screwing up, is a testament to the hard work of FSP members and OLFOD participants who dropped their lives for a month or more to come here. But we always knew we couldn't do it alone, and the campaign failed to come through and do what was necessary to win.


Thank you for your endeavor.

I spent every spare hour of my life following the campaign from Australia.

There was so much hope...

And then it died. Big time.

Live Free or Die... Died.

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## No1ButPaul08

The primary reason we lost NH was John McCain took out a loan to win and had over 100 town halls there.  Meanwhile, Ron's town halls were few and far between and he sat on over 5 million.  To blame the people of NH or the FSP is not looking at the facts.

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## Grimnir Wotansvolk

I'd much rather move west. Colorado seems to be ripe for Free State Project II.

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## porcupine

> i'm going with the cost of moving being an issue........... maybe if we could all have guaranteed jobs? find me one and i'll move.





> There is no way I would move to New Hampshire.  Nice state, but I prefer being able to kayak in January without a wetsuit.




_This and many other comments like it are exactly why I DID move to New Hampshire.  I'm sick of being around fair-weather friends of liberty who will talk and talk and talk and do next to nothing.  They repeat "give me liberty or give me death" and then say "no kayaking is more important to me."   Since I've been in New Hampshire, I've been surrounded by people actively changing the world around them, trying to make America's freest state a truly free state once more.  It's invigorating, it's rewarding and it's FUN!  
_

We're making good progress.  We should have medical MJ within 2 years (something 85% of Dems in NH and 56% of Repubs in NH support) and have already opted out of Real ID.  The Dems took over the state in 2006 because of anger over the Iraq War (this state is pretty anti-war) and straight ticket voting (which we've successfully gotten rid of in time for this election).  *As Ron Paul said at the Revolution March, we have more than 50 Ron Paul supporters running for state rep*, so there is plenty to do (how many are running in YOUR state?)

As far as the excuse that Ron Paul didn't win the primary, two things.  First, New Hampshire was Paul's 2nd best primary, so it wasn't a bad showing at all.  No he didn't win, but if you recall, he, um, didn't win anywhere.  That's part of what the FSP is going to FIX because as Ron Paul's race showed, our current strategy of being spread out and disunited is failing miserably.  Second, how well did he do in your state?  

Do you honestly have a chance to make a difference in your state?  If yes, good.  If not, what are you waiting for??!  Move!

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## turbosaab

The FSP is a great opportunity to be part of a community of individuals who care about liberty and to effect meaningful change at a local level (and also enjoy the many freedoms that NH already offers). 

I'd followed FSP online for quite a while, but it wasn't until I stopped by their summer gathering ("Porcfest") for a few days in June that I decided to make the move. If you have any interest at all you owe it to yourself to check out the Liberty Forum in the winter or Porcfest next summer. If nothing else you will enjoy a vacation and meet great people... but fair warning, most who see it for themselves end up moving. 

P.S. Nothing is perfect, winter is only a few months out of the year.

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## Brian Defferding

> The primary reason we lost NH was John McCain took out a loan to win and had over 100 town halls there.  Meanwhile, Ron's town halls were few and far between and he sat on over 5 million.  To blame the people of NH or the FSP is not looking at the facts.


Exactly.  Paul didn't campaign too hard over there, McCain campaigned like crazy.  If Paul campaigned the same amount McCain did, it would have been another story.

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## canadian4ronpaul

on the freestateproject homepage:

*Obama Support Dropping in New Hampshire*
Well there's some good news for us McCain supporters.

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## porcupine

> Let's keep trying to make every state a truly free state again.


We already are doing that and it's not working.  Are we making any progress with that strategy?  We ARE making progress here in New Hampshire.

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## porcupine

> on the freestateproject homepage:
> 
> *Obama Support Dropping in New Hampshire*
> Well there's some good news for us McCain supporters.


So if you are happy that Obama's support is dropping, it automatically means you support McCain?  You've never heard of 3rd parties?

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## No1ButPaul08

> So if you are happy that Obama's support is dropping, it automatically means you support McCain?  You've never heard of 3rd parties?


Well it does say US McCain supporters, implying the author supports McCain.  I should point out, however, that the content in question wasn't written by the FSP, it's a link to a "pro-liberty" blog.

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## ksu_s13

IMO, the Free State Project is our best chance of having liberty in our lifetime.  I used to be doubter of the project, but I recently signed their statement of intent to move because I feel that it's the logical next step in the r3VOLtion.  More importantly though, the limited number of activists there ARE affecting change!    

*The fact is that despite all of the unprecedented hard work, meet ups, money bombs, and publicity stunts by grassroots individuals, Ron Paul's presidential campaign went NOWHERE.  * 

Why?  The powers-that-be have a stranglehold on who gets to be selected for president.  If you don't play (business as usual) ball, you're cock blocked by the political and media establishment, end of story.  The Anderson Cooper 360 special on the streets of Manchester was a perfect example of this.  He discussed every Republican presidential candidate EXCEPT Ron Paul, even though he was surrounded by a SEA of Ron Paul supporters and signs.  I won't even get into Ron Paul's unjust/illogical exclusion from the New Hampshire Republican debate or the fact that the primary vote was conducted on those dubious fraud boxes that we all know and love... 

My point is that if even half of Ron Paul's primary supporters contributed to the FSP with their time, support, money, and energy it could *quickly* become a force to be reckoned with.  The paradox of voter participation dictates that it would be a simple task to gain control of state and local government as a laughably small sum of people tend to vote in their respective elections, especially during 'off' years.  

Everyone might not have the immediate means or desire to move to New Hampshire, but that doesn't mean they can't support the project in other ways (a tirade on a forum full of strangers is a good start ).  

*As for me, I'm jumping ship from Kansas political mediocrity, to a place where my ideas, energies, and efforts won't be squandered. I want liberty and meaningful change ASAP.  Family, friends, familiarity, and livelihood be damned.  Live Free or Die!*

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## mport1

> IMO, the Free State Project is our best chance of having liberty in our lifetime.  I used to be doubter of the project, but I recently signed their statement of intent to move because I feel that it's the logical next step in the r3VOLtion.  More importantly though, the limited number of activists there ARE affecting change!    
> 
> *The fact is that despite all of the unprecedented hard work, meet ups, money bombs, and publicity stunts by grassroots individuals, Ron Paul's presidential campaign went NOWHERE.  * 
> 
> Why?  The powers-that-be have a stranglehold on who gets to be selected for president.  If you don't play (business as usual) ball, you're cock blocked by the political and media establishment, end of story.  The Anderson Cooper 360 special on the streets of Manchester was a perfect example of this.  He discussed every Republican presidential candidate EXCEPT Ron Paul, even though he was surrounded by a SEA of Ron Paul supporters and signs.  I won't even get into Ron Paul's unjust/illogical exclusion from the New Hampshire Republican debate or the fact that the primary vote was conducted on those dubious fraud boxes that we all know and love... 
> 
> My point is that if even half of Ron Paul's primary supporters contributed to the FSP with their time, support, money, and energy it could *quickly* become a force to be reckoned with.  The paradox of voter participation dictates that it would be a simple task to gain control of state and local government as a laughably small sum of people tend to vote in their respective elections, especially during 'off' years.  
> 
> Everyone might not have the immediate means or desire to move to New Hampshire, but that doesn't mean they can't support the project in other ways (a tirade on a forum full of strangers is a good start ).  
> ...


Great points.  Imagine if all our time, effort, and money went into NH instead of a broad nationwide race where RP had no chance.  We would very easily "take over" the state.  If you are that adamant against signing the pledge, please at least donate to the effort so the message can get out to those that will.

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## Barney

> Exactly.  Paul didn't campaign too hard over there, McCain campaigned like crazy.  If Paul campaigned the same amount McCain did, it would have been another story.


Oh please, supporters inside and outside the RP campaign bet the farm on NH.  How many volunteers descended on the state?

How much campaigning was done in Nevada, Montana, Pennsylvania, Maine compared to what was poured into NH?

In hindsight, they should've bet the farm on Montanan to win at least one state and secure a spot at the convention.

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## constituent

> Why aren't we all members of the Free State Project?


Because it is retarded and symptomatic of ignorant, backward thinking?

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## No1ButPaul08

> Oh please, supporters inside and outside the RP campaign bet the farm on NH.  How many volunteers descended on the state?


Many would argue that many supporters that came into NH didn't really help at all.  Many took an in your face approach to campaigning that ended up not being very effective.  My point stands that McCain took out a loan and had over 100 town halls just to win NH, while Ron hardly spent time there and sat on 5 million.




> How much campaigning was done in Nevada, Montana, Pennsylvania, Maine compared to what was poured into NH?


The problem with this is that all the campaigns spent more time in NH, not just RP's.  Huckabee, McCain, and Romney all ran better campaigns in NH.  RP campaigned significantly more in NV, compared to the other candidates, and the results showed.  




> In hindsight, they should've bet the farm on Montanan to win at least one state and secure a spot at the convention.


Winning one state would have done nothing.  RP would have had to win 5 states to secure a spot at the convention, and with a strong showing in NH, he could have done that.  Instead, we saw a vastly underfunded Huckabee campaign blasting ads in NH, while Ron's were hardly seen.

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## tonesforjonesbones

Pokerface is a protest band.  They have always been a protest band..and they were a protest band when they played for your events before...so what/who changed?  tones

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## Dreepa

> Pokerface is a protest band.  They have always been a protest band..and they were a protest band when they played for your events before...so what/who changed?  tones


Tom I want to fix a few facts for you:

One  the person mentioned is not an FSP board member.
Two the person you mentioned was speaking on his own behalf not on the FSP's behalf.
Three  Pokerface played at the 2008 Liberty Forum  (And RP spoke at it).

For those who say it is 'too libertarian'... The FSP is what you make of it.
You move to NH to work for a smaller government.. simple as that.  Most of the mover are either apolitical or are 'RON Paul Republicans'.  Many of us are working within the GOP.  Many are working at the town level.

NH has no income tax or sales tax.

For those of you who say a job is stopping you please go post on the FSP forum what type of job you are looking for and then you might be surprised at the help you get.

For those who can't commit to moving for whatever reason... I urge you to sign up as a friend of the FSP.. it commits you to nothing and you get the monthly newsletter.

Feel free to stop by the booth at the Campaign for Liberty.  Ask for Dreepa and I would be willing to discuss the pros (and cons) of NH with anyone who is interested.  (Tom you can ask me about the Pokerface situation as well)

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## speciallyblend

well let me know when they  focus on colorado, we are already in the liberty state, if the free project would focus on the co mtns they could accomplish much more!!!!

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## Brian Defferding

> Oh please, supporters inside and outside the RP campaign bet the farm on NH.  How many volunteers descended on the state?
> 
> How much campaigning was done in Nevada, Montana, Pennsylvania, Maine compared to what was poured into NH?
> 
> In hindsight, they should've bet the farm on Montanan to win at least one state and secure a spot at the convention.


Maybe, but I'm not talking about Paul's supporters, but Paul himself.  I think more presence there by Paul could only have gained his numbers, and probably by a lot more than the pollsters think.

----------


## Ozwest

> Maybe, but I'm not talking about Paul's supporters, but Paul himself.  I think more presence there by Paul could only have gained his numbers, and probably by a lot more than the pollsters think.


In retrospect, this is true.

Campaign Headquarters were semi-useless.

----------


## maxxoccupancy

The job situation is actually pretty good in New England--especially New Hampshire.  If you have a Chemical, Electrical, or Mechanical Engineering degree, you can land work.  Most freestaters have some kind of income on the side other than there job--usually developing websites, handling home maintenance, landscaping, notary, etc.  That's just the way things are in NH.

Anyone concerned about the cold should come out to the seacoast.  I live in Seabrook, and the winters here are not extreme because we're in the southernmost part of the state and because Seabrook is right on the ocean.  Portsmouth and Hampton are almost as good, and rooms are fairly easy to land from October through the end of April.  Moreover, there's work here on the coast.  Those having trouble looking for work here can make do with employment in Mass for the time being.

Finally, anyone not willing to come up to New England should consider Wyoming out west, or at least move to a proliberty state and get active there.  Worst of all are people who do absolutely nothing where they are, but come online and flame libertarians and constitutionalists who are actually doing something.

----------


## tonesforjonesbones

So what's going on.  a bevy of Free State People coming onto the forum?  I dont see myself moving to NH.  It's too north and too cold.  I live in Florida.  I wouldn't mind N'awlins or Texas..lots of libertarians in texas.  tones

----------


## error

Max, don't forget to mention the reason Seabrook is so much warmer is that you're all basking in the radioactive glow of Chern, er, the nuclear power plant.  Just kidding.

----------


## JRegs85

Has anyone here ever read _Molon Labe!_ by Boston T Party? 

http://www.freestatewyoming.org/

http://www.amazon.com/Molon-Labe-Jav...9423515&sr=8-1

----------


## The_Orlonater

I rather like where I live now.

----------


## porcupine

> well let me know when they  focus on colorado, we are already in the liberty state, if the free project would focus on the co mtns they could accomplish much more!!!!


Ok.  We've gotten 8500 people committed to move to New Hampshire and 555 of them have done so so far.  How many are moving with you to the state of Colorado (which has a population too big, in my opinion, to be swayed by a small number of activists anyway).

As Dreepa said, if you can't move now because of jobs, weather, etc.  Sign up as a friend of the FSP.  It won't commit you to anything, but you'll start getting the monthly e-newsletter.

----------


## FSP-Rebel

> So what's going on.  a bevy of Free State People coming onto the forum?  I dont see myself moving to NH.  It's too north and too cold.  I live in Florida.  I wouldn't mind N'awlins or Texas..lots of libertarians in texas.  tones


I've addressed the weather situation on page 4... Do me a favor and call into Free Talk Live (M-Sat, 7-10pm; 1-800-259-9231) with your sentiments about the NH winters this week (or next) and run it by the hosts (they moved from FL to NH a couple years ago to work for freedom). I look forward to the discussion... They have 40 affiliates on Saturdays FYI (like the mega stations in Tampa WFLA and Miami WFTL+ other big stations in Indy, WA, SC, Vegas and many more). I'm not trying to bust your balls, but weather shouldn't be a barrier to one's freedom my friend.

----------


## Barney

> Maybe, but I'm not talking about Paul's supporters, but Paul himself.  I think more presence there by Paul could only have gained his numbers, and probably by a lot more than the pollsters think.


Agreed.  But that's true of any state.  But keep in mind, the amount of resources it would have cost the campaign to undertake what the volunteers organized.  And from what little I saw of them on YouTube, they seemed very intelligent and articulate and not at all belligerent as some has suggested. 

Regardless, did Paul spend exorbitant amounts of time in Nevada, Montana, Maine, Washington, Pennsylvania, Louisiana and all the other states that faired better than NH?

I applaud what the FSP is trying to do, but I'm tired of the fallacy that NH is somehow the last bastion of the remnant in the country when it is clearly not true.

----------


## No1ButPaul08

> Agreed. But that's true of any state. But keep in mind, the amount of resources it would have cost the campaign to undertake what the volunteers organized. And from what little I saw of them on YouTube, they seemed very intelligent and articulate and not at all belligerent as some has suggested.
> 
> Regardless, did Paul spend exorbitant amounts of time in Nevada, Montana, Maine, Washington, Pennsylvania, Louisiana and all the other states that faired better than NH?


Comparing any state to NH besides Iowa is a pointless exercise.  Did John McCain take out a loan and have 100 town halls to win Montana?  No, he did that to win NH.  All the campaigns put most of their resources at the time into NH.  Unfortunately, RP didn't do too many town halls nor did he spend much money there.  The official campaign in NH was nothing more than pathetic.  Getting out advertised by a vastly underfunded Huckabee campaign is inexcusable.  

You also have to take caucus states vs. primary states into the equation.  In caucus states, it's much easier for a candidate with a smaller but enthusiastic base to make a splash, as caucuses reward enthusiasm.  When looking at just primary states, NH finished 2nd best, behind Pennsylvania's very impressive 16%.

My point about some of the volunteers stands.  RP supporters from NH were coming on the boards suggesting that some of these people tone it down.

----------


## nevadamidwife

1) snow

2) birthing fascism  
http://cfmidwifery.org/states/states.aspx?ST=NH

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

> 1) snow
> 
> You get used to it after the first winter. There have been movers from Arizona and Florida and they have gotten used to it. 
> 
> 2) birthing fascism  
> http://cfmidwifery.org/states/states.aspx?ST=NH


NH requires licenses on most occupations, but doesn't tax or regulate it beyond that.

There was a activist in NH who successfully fought state licensing on interior designers -- and kept it away for good.  She then went on to form a national organization devoted to resisting similar legislation around the country.

What it usually takes to be successful is passion and persistence. You will have plenty of FSP participants backing you up and keeping your persistence alive in NH. And if you have a passion for liberty and keeping your occupation free, you can have a chance at successfully abolishing bad laws.

There was a homeschooling family who decided to move here, although they disliked the NH homescholing laws. After they settled in, they got a representative to sponsor legislation which would reduce the red-tape for homeschoolers. With a lot of work, they were successful in repealing the regulations. 

There is a history of successfully fighting & resisting tyranny in NH. It is one of the oldest states, yet arguably the freest. (There are many things to consider when weighing on freedom of a state - more than population and how well Ron Paul did.) 

I would love to see the regulatory laws in NH turned around. And I encourage you to join the FSP!

----------


## Scribbler de Stebbing

> i'm going with the cost of moving being an issue........... maybe if we could all have guaranteed jobs? find me one and i'll move.


This was meant to be ironic, right?

----------


## G-Wohl

> Frankly, because I hate New England.


Well, on behalf of New England, I wholeheartedly apologize for us having wealth, open-mindedness, culture, sophistication, and the best education institutions in the country.

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

> i'm going with the cost of moving being an issue........... maybe if we could all have guaranteed jobs? find me one and i'll move.


You could secure a job before moving by posting on the job section on the Free State Project forums and visiting their helpful guide. 

Job forums here and job guide here.

----------


## Brian

It's too cold for me.

I would have to work from our Boston office, and pay Massachusetts state income tax.  Not to mention the nasty drive to work.

Crappy showing in the primaries.

I have hopes of other regions eventually seceding from the union.

And if you haven't read the Nevada state GOP platform, here it is:

http://stewart-rhodes.blogspot.com/2...-military.html

Seems like us desert tortoises have a whole lot more in common with the Revolution than those currently in NH.

----------


## Elwar

I signed up early on, my wife has not. She's from the south and hates the cold...I could tolerate it.

Though she's already talked a few times about leaving the country...if we hit 20k I think I'd be able to fulfill my pledge.

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

@Brian. How much to do you know about the project? Your criticisms appear quite standard. I recommend you look around the main website and even participant's websites (like RidleyReport.com, Freestateblogs.net/blog/2  Here's some of the Project's victories, for instance: http://freestateblogs.net/victories06) before you say such things.



@All. In my opinion, here's one more good reason to move: 




> Source
> *Should you move from California to New Hampshire? Not if you're a "liberal moonbat"...
> Apparently this woman and her family made a big mistake by moving from southern california to New Hampshire:*
> 
> _"My family and I moved to New Hampshire from Southern California and we can't wait to get the hell out! Where do I even begin with this crappy state?
> 
>     Okay, let's talk about the weather first. We are in the Milford area in southern NH and the winter here is hell! I can't even tell you how many feet of snow we got last winter. At first you might think it would be charming but by April we were going stir crazy from being stuck in the house.
> 
>     And if you think shoveling this crap is fun, forget it! After 800th snowfall we all had sore backs and were simply tired of digging our car out of this white mess. And if the snow isn't enough then the sub-zero temperatures and icy roads of death made it even worse.
> ...

----------


## porcupine

> and - as if that wasn't enough - these people are all gun nuts! You see people with pistols strapped to their hips walking around! And it's legal here. Yes, they can do it and the police can't stop them. The entire state is filled with gun toting lunatics.
> 
> ...
> 
>  And please don't tell me how "progressive" nh is becoming. I have found it to be the complete opposite. A lot of the so-called democrats here can be classified as republicans. Some of the democrats are gun nuts too! Aren't democrats supposed to support common sense gun control? This whole place is absolutely insane and i can't wait to get my husband and kids the hell out of here.


lmao!!! ;D  love it!

----------


## Brian

@Libertarian Ideals

Don't get me wrong, I have high respect for the FSP.

My FSP T-shirt has been washed so many times I look like a homeless person wearing it with all the holes.

Ya Ridley is awesome.  I love his open carry police confrontation vids.

I've been on the FSP email list for several years now.

I actually consulted with one of the guys that started the project on the legal structure when it was being formed.  I don't remember his name it was so many years ago.  One of those smart Ivy League guys.

NH is just later on my list behind Montana, Alaska, Uruguay, Lakota Nation, etc ...

----------


## porcupine

> I actually consulted with one of the guys that started the project on the legal structure when it was being formed.  I don't remember his name it was so many years ago.  One of those smart Ivy League guys.


Was it Jason Sorens, who at the time was a Yale Ph.D. Candidate?




> NH is just later on my list behind Montana, Alaska, Uruguay, Lakota Nation, etc ...


well, Montana and Alaska are definitely among the freest states, but their main problem when it comes to having a liberty movement is size.  It can take you 3 hours to meet the closest liberty activists.  We've got a very active liberty movement and social scene going and that's something we have on AK and MT.

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

> @Libertarian Ideals
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I have high respect for the FSP.
> 
> My FSP T-shirt has been washed so many times I look like a homeless person wearing it with all the holes.
> 
> Ya Ridley is awesome.  I love his open carry police confrontation vids.
> 
> I've been on the FSP email list for several years now.
> ...



To each to his own. 

Moving to the Republic of Lakotah would be great (or Alaska), but Lakotah hasn't been officially recognized as an independent nation yet, and I want to do something _now_.

_Oh, and here's a funny fact: Porcupine, South Dakota is the unofficial capitol of the unrecognized Republic of Lakotah. I say it's funny because the porcupine is the mascot of the FSP, chosen because it's representative of the non-aggression principle._

----------


## maxxoccupancy

Any liberty lovers out there who are unable or unwilling to make their way up to NH should consider free county projects.  Just get together with other activists and pick a small, libertarian county in your respective state.  From there, select a couple of towns that have liberty minded people there.  You are less likely to face resistance from natives, and you can accomplish a lot at the local level that would be difficult to do at the local level.  Moreover, you're not leaving friends, family, and careers behind.  Simply vote on a county, report which one was chosen by the majority, then find a couple of small towns to start focusing in on.  You spend your time recruiting smaller government advocates from your state, then work to build a liberty base within that state.

----------


## user

Anyone in Nevada?

----------


## porcupine

As mentioned earlier, at the least, people should sign up as friend of the Free State Project so they can get updates in the e-newsletter.  It doesn't commit you to anything.

----------


## FTL_Ian

> _This and many other comments like it are exactly why I DID move to New Hampshire.  I'm sick of being around fair-weather friends of liberty who will talk and talk and talk and do next to nothing.  They repeat "give me liberty or give me death" and then say "no kayaking is more important to me."   Since I've been in New Hampshire, I've been surrounded by people actively changing the world around them, trying to make America's freest state a truly free state once more.  It's invigorating, it's rewarding and it's FUN!  
> _


That's awesome.  I'm so glad NH is cold.  It really keeps out the talkers.

We have and will continue to attract the best activists, and as a result will be the beacon of liberty to the world.

----------


## Brian

@Porcupine:
Possibly.  Im bad with names.  I dont think I was much help as not-for-profit entities arent my thing, just pointing him in the right direction.  

I already have a network on a tribal reservation in Montana.  Are we activists?  I believe so in my mind.

Unfortunately, as you say, there isnt much of a social scene as the town is so small.  I just posted on the FSP Forums asking what the best city to live would be if I needed to work in Boston.  I have friends in Boston, but being single it would help if there were some single ladies around. 

I believe Im already signed up as a FOFSP.

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

*Endorsements*
You can find the whole list here.

"Our country has a new opportunity, an opportunity for Americans to pack up their bags, move to the 'Live Free or Die' State of New Hampshire, and make it even better and more free than it is now. The Free State Project offers us all a wonder prospect. I encourage my fellow Libertarians and all freedom-loving Americans to consider joining the Free State Project." More ...

- Aaron Russo
Aaron Russo was a 2004 LP Presidential Candidate hopeful and a Hollywood producer.

     "The lucky folks in New Hampshire may soon be the beneficiaries of a libertarian 'tipping point.' It is wonderful to imagine and anticipate the changes toward liberty we will see in New Hampshire when the Free State Project's goal of 20,000 libertarians moving there is realized. Then, think about the effect on neighboring New England states, then all the states, then all of North America. And why stop there. The Free State Project just could (and should) change the world. The sooner the better."

 - David Bergland	
David Bergland was the 1984 LP Presidential Candidate and is author of _Libertarianism In One Lesson._

     "I think FSP is a TERRIFIC idea. I know a lot of people have botched 'new country' and 'let's take over a county' ideas, but FSP is different. Not only do they have the best plan I've seen for actually making it happen, it's one that doesn't ask people to front a bunch of cash or risk making any moves, until a critical mass has been reached. Even if it's a long shot, the chance of having an example of freedom at work  that 'shining city on the hill'  is too good to pass up."

- Louis James 
Louis James was the president of the Henry Hazlitt Foundation.

"Over 40 years ago I became interested in learning about liberty, freedom, limited government and advancing a more civil (vs. political) society. About 20 years ago I figured out that I was pretty much a classical liberal or libertarian and began supporting and working with various organizations that shared my views and objectives. I recently learned about the Free State Project and the possibility of liberty in our lifetime and I thought  that's a very reasonable, peaceful and sensible way to demonstrate the benefits of a free society for all. So I've signed up to participate in this grand undertaking in New Hampshire and my wife, Rebecca, and I encourage one and all likeminded freedom-lovers to join us in the great Free State Project."

- William A. Dunn
William A. Dunn, PhD is the Founder & Chairman of DUNN Capital Management and current Chairman of the  Reason Foundation.

     "There is to be no doubt: without such a grass-roots movement as the Free State Project, the usurpation of our rights will only continue to grow until this country needs one day be drenched in the blood of patriots, for a third time. Surely, the Free State Project has provided us with a peaceful alternative to such future bloodshed. Let us not forsake this opportunity to accomplish what those before us were willing to die for: good government, not against, but for the people.

    The Liberty Forum of Ohio is _proud_ to pledge it's support to the prodigious efforts of the Free State Project. May we stand united in this fight for truth and reason!"

See the  full letter (PDF) ...

- Stephen Valentine Hodos
Stephen Valentine Hodos is the Co-Founder and Director of Public Relations for Liberty Forum


-Welcoming messages from NH Residents
-Read Jason Sorens' article that started it all.
-Peruse the FSP essays & articles section.

----------


## Flash

> It would be bad publicity for the FSP to knowingly book a band that has anti-semite views,


Being against Israel isn't anti-semitic. We can't let people think this or else we'll have NO freedom of speech on the issue.

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

> Being against Israel isn't anti-semitic. We can't let people think this or else we'll have NO freedom of speech on the issue.


I respect or disaprove of people's _actions_, not lines on a map, groups of people, or people themselves. 
Calling some person anti-semitic or another a terrorist gets us nowhere.


@Those who want to hear the whole story on the cancellation of Pokerface at the non-FSP event, you can read it over at the FSP forum.

----------


## mport1

> That's awesome.  I'm so glad NH is cold.  It really keeps out the talkers.
> 
> We have and will continue to attract the best activists, and as a result will be the beacon of liberty to the world.


Yep, that is definitely a plus.

----------


## LibertiORDeth

> NH and no other state is currently "free."  The point is to get enough liberty lovers there to make it free.
> 
> Also, remember that you don't have to move now for it, but wouldn't it be worth any inconveniences to make the move when the 20,000 goal is reached?  Even after that you have a 5 year window to straighten everything out and find a job.  I think a little sacrifice is worth our freedom, we have already given so much of our time and money to the RP cause.


They don't seem to be going to their goal as fast as expected, an IMHO the project was a big let down.  This not even including the other mentioned problems, such as it not being very much of a free state.

----------


## alaric

> Ha, after the NH primary... I have my doubts about NH ever being "free" again.


I believe the votefraud in NH made it look way worse than it is. The way i see it, there are just a few at the top ruining a state with great potential. In addition to the FSP, just look next door: there is a real secession movement in Vermont that actually had big demonstrations a year or so back in the Montpelier/Barre area!

----------


## alaric

> Being against Israel isn't anti-semitic. We can't let people think this or else we'll have NO freedom of speech on the issue.


no kidding! The real meaning of anti-semitic is anti- arab! The arabs are semites, most Israeli's are not!

----------


## tonesforjonesbones

When the Free State Project "allows" freedom of speech I'll think about it.  You know Pokerface is a Protest Band...they have ALWAYS been a protest band.  YOu sacked them due to words on their FORUM...their own private PROPERTY..SHAME ON YOU.  You need to purge your board.  You are corrupt.  NOT to mention the fiasco in the NH primaries.  PFFFT.  Tones

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

@lukeownzu & toneforjonesbones,

With all do respect, the Free State Project is for doers, not complainers.  We are recruiting people who see a problem, and want to do something about it, rather than be content with discussing things on the internet.


If you have any questions about the project, you can PM me here on RPForums or post your questions on the appropriate FSP sub-forum. I recommend the later, as you will get many very helpful, informative responses.  http://forum.freestateproject.org/in...ed7&board=12.0

@tonesforjonesbones, if you belive you have an honest gripe with the FSP board, you can contact them here.
http://freestateproject.org/org


But caution: If you are merely interested in whining, FSPers won't want you, and will make it known. I recommend looking around the FSP website a bit before you blast how awful the FSP was for giving Paul low numbers in the primaries, and how the FSP board restricts freedom of speech and how you want them to change their conduct before you might join.

----------


## Truth Warrior

Maybe because "free state" is an oxymoron.

----------


## Zeeder

I think the real reason more people don't join the free state project is that some of us are addicted to the victim status.  Actually winning or make true progress would give us less to whine about. It's the whining we thrive upon.

 If we all actually moved to the New Hampshire we WOULD win. Instead of taking over a single state, we believe foolishly that we can change the whole country easier.

----------


## Truth Warrior

> I think the real reason more people don't join the free state project is that some of us are addicted to the victim status. Actually winning or make true progress would give us less to whine about. It's the whining we thrive upon.
> 
> If we all actually moved to the New Hampshire we WOULD win. Instead of taking over a single state, we believe foolishly that we can change the whole country easier.


  New Hampshire would NOT be pleased if we did.<IMHO>

----------


## constituent

> If we all actually moved to the New Hampshire we WOULD win... Instead of taking over a single state...


All this "taking over" $#@! is what keeps me away (just who do you reckon you're gonna put in charge when you do?  think they'll be any better?  ::scoff:: ).

New Hampshire for New Hampshisters, Texas for Texans, so on and so forth.

And how is it that libertarians with their "non-coercion" axiom seem so hell bent to "take over" anyway?  It baffles the mind.

----------


## tonesforjonesbones

I guess the Free State Project has selected this forum to market/recruit..I see a lot of "new members" all of the sudden.  Look...I AM doing something..I am calling you out for your lack of liberty.  Either you are for freedom or you are not for freedom.  If you shut down voices on certain issues...then it really isn't free is it?  That  would be contolled. Believe me , I'm not a whiner..I am very direct.  Make no mistake about that .  Tones

----------


## porcupine

> All this "taking over" $#@! is what keeps me away (just who do you reckon you're gonna put in charge when you do?  think they'll be any better?  ::scoff:: ).
> 
> New Hampshire for New Hampshisters, Texas for Texans, so on and so forth.
> 
> And how is it that libertarians with their "non-coercion" axiom seem so hell bent to "take over" anyway?  It baffles the mind.


How does moving to a place violate the non-aggression principle?

----------


## porcupine

> Either you are for freedom or you are not for freedom.  If you shut down voices on certain issues...then it really isn't free is it?  That  would be contolled. Believe me , I'm not a whiner..I am very direct.  Make no mistake about that .  Tones


What about freedom of association?  Does the FSP have the freedom to disassociate from people it doesn't like?

How does not doing business with someone violate their freedom?  So if I decide I like Target better than Wal-Mart, it's un-libertarian of me to shop at Target?

You need a lesson in the basic principles of freedom, my friend.

----------


## rayzer

> If only a small portion of Ron Paul supporters signed up we could get this done.  Wouldn't you want to move if 20,000 other liberty activists were going to be there?  Sadly it is looking like the federal government is beyond repair and I think concentrating our efforts in one state would have a much higher chance of success.
> 
> 
> http://www.freestateproject.org


This is a REALLY good question!  See you in New Hampshire!

----------


## constituent

> What about freedom of association?  Does the FSP have the freedom to disassociate from people it doesn't like?
> 
> How does not doing business with someone violate their freedom?  So if I decide I like Target better than Wal-Mart, it's un-libertarian of me to shop at Target?
> 
> You need a lesson in the basic principles of freedom, my friend.


lol.  

the folks _from_ new hampshire have a right to live in the manner they like, no?  the purpose of government (allegedly) is to serve on their behalf, correct?

they've got their own thing going on already.  

force feeding them immigrants in order to (launch a coup) dilute what little say they do have in the government that _they_ (paid for) have "chosen" to have represent them isn't an act of aggression? (as a side note, i'd like to hear your opinion on "the immigration issue" sometime)

and for what, exactly?  some political cause?  

and who will be runnin' the show then? 

from the looks of things, just another band of pushy, would be if they could be, hacks. 


i think truth warrior spelled it out quite well above.  

stew on it.

----------


## porcupine

> the folks _from_ new hampshire have a right to live in the manner they like, no?  the purpose of government (allegedly) is to serve on their behalf, correct?
> 
> they've got their own thing going on already.


No the purpose of government is not to serve on behalf of the people.  It's to secure liberty.  Second, you've never moved into a new town and voted in an election?  It's the same thing.  We're moving into a new state.

Ever hear of freedom of travel?




> force feeding them immigrants in order to (launch a coup) dilute what little say they do have in the government that _they_ (paid for) have "chosen" to have represent them isn't an act of aggression? (as a side note, i'd like to hear your opinion on "the immigration issue" sometime)


A coup is a violent overthrow of government and the FSP is absolutely opposed to violence, which you would know if you had read the website.  We're working within the political process (with a great deal of success I might add).

Umm, no, moving is not an act of aggression .  Perhaps you would like to pass a soviet-style law that requires a license to leave your city of residence, but until then, we are free as Americans to live in any part of our country that we please.  You would probably have no problem if I had moved to New Hampshire to get a better job, or because I liked the cooler weather, but because I moved for FREEDOM (*gasp*), you are offended.  




> and for what, exactly?  some political cause?


Well, my own purpose is so that I can be around libertarians that actually DO something about protecting their freedoms instead of people who merely talk about it on the internet and leave it at that.




> and who will be runnin' the show then?


The citizens of New Hampshire, such as myself.  As always.


So, constituent, what kinds of pro-liberty activism is going on in your neck of the woods?  What's the last thing YOU got involved in to protect freedom?  What groups, causes, etc are you active in at the moment?

----------


## constituent

> Well, my own purpose is so that I can be around libertarians that actually DO something about protecting their freedoms instead of people who merely talk about it on the internet and leave it at that.


says the guy on the internet.

what's going on in my neck of the woods?  

a whole lotta discussion about renting one's "property" from the government.  

oh yea, and re-electing rp to congress.  

why? what are you actually doing?  other than staging a publicity stunt every now and then, that is (oh yea, and temporarily hijacking internet discussion boards)?

p.s. the whole, "what do you want, some kinda soviet blah blah blah" bull$#@! doesn't work anymore, your buddies wore that one out long ago 'round here.

your idea is backward and counterproductive,your understanding of human interaction/nature/society fundamentally flawed, and that's all there is to it.

----------


## constituent

> No the purpose of government is not to serve on behalf of the people.  It's to secure liberty.


on the federal level, i will agree with you.  but that's not what we're talking about is it?




> Ever hear of freedom of travel?


yea, i'm all about it.  check my posts on immigration.




> A coup is a violent overthrow of government


lol.

never heard the phrase "bloodless coup?"

i would venture to guess that our readers have.





> and the FSP is absolutely opposed to violence, which you would know if you had read the website.


you speak for everyone?  somehow i doubt that.




> We're working within the political process (with a great deal of success I might add).


really?  which ones?

----------


## Alex Libman

I'm a member, but unfortunately I'm blowing my "First 1000" pledge...

With a million plus non-libertarians in that state, secession or serious political change is unlikely.  I do, however, see it as a focal point of free market activism and community.  If you're into the hands-on in-person stuff, New Hampshire is the place to be.  If not, let Internet be our Free State Project for now.

I do see it as a staging area for something else: free town projects, sea-steading, etc.  Heck, I'm sure there'll be a Free Space Station Project someday!  All this will obviously require investment of capital, so it's a perfectly reasonable position to stay where you are if you have a solid job / business that can't be moved, and let your money do the talking for you.

Sooner or later, Atlas will shrug!

----------


## porcupine

> on the federal level, i will agree with you.


The principle of good government is the same for all governments.  The purpose of government is to secure liberty.  You don't agree, which is fine.  You're not the type of person I'm hoping will join the project (and you wouldn't be able to agree to the statement of intent anyway).





> you speak for everyone?  somehow i doubt that.


No, it's on our *website's FAQ's*

Q: What kind of people are not welcome as members of the Free State Project?

A: Anyone who promotes violence, racial hatred, or bigotry is not welcome.




Your posts have made it clear that you're not familiar with the FSP so I'm going to agree to disagree at this point.  Our triumphs, challenges, plans and projects are available on YouTube, the various forums which FSP participants frequent and, even better, at our two annual events: PorcFest and The New Hampshire Liberty Forum (which is coming up this March.  _Ron Paul will probably be speaking at the Liberty Forum for the 3rd time)._

----------


## constituent

> The principle of good government is the same for all governments.  The purpose of government is to secure liberty.


lol @ governments securing liberty.  there is a reason the constitution was designed as a restraint upon government and the would be little dictators who seek to run it.




> You're not the type of person I'm hoping will join the project.


I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to assume you know what "type" of person i am, you collectivist shill. 

...also i understand the subtext of what you're saying here, free thinkers not allowed.

follow, follow, or stfu and gtfo of the way.




> No, it's on our *website's FAQ's*


and as we all know, everyone lives by the faq, right?

lol.  you're more diluted than i thought.




> Q: What kind of people are not welcome as members of the Free State Project?
> 
> A: Anyone who promotes violence, racial hatred, or bigotry is not welcome.


.... guess this gets back to my original point about aggression.  you seem to have confused aggression with violence/hatred/bigotry.

[as the blind lead the blind leading the blind]

that said, funny you've postured yourself as thought police already.  and to think, you're not even "in charge" yet.




> Your posts have made it clear that you're not familiar with the FSP so I'm going to stop feeding the troll at this point.


[lol @ spambot calling me a troll]

actually, i'm quite familiar w/ the FSP as their relentless attempts to recruit from amongst those attracted to rp's candidacy through spamming this board, insulting those who choose not to aide your agenda, and various other means...

i'm also familiar w/ how about this time last year you (as a group) narced out one of your own to the feds...

...seen that one before

.........

btw

still waiting for an answer to the question regarding the political victories you claimed to have achieved....

----------


## pacelli

> Ha, after the NH primary... I have my doubts about NH ever being "free" again.


+1

----------


## constituent

> If you're into the hands-on in-person stuff, New Hampshire is the place to be.  If not, let Internet be our Free State Project for now.


and that's exactly the problem right there.  

if you're into the hands-on in-person stuff there is *no* better place to be than where you are right now.

maybe i'm crazy, but i'll stick w/ reality and the opportunities i've got rather than pursuing someone else's utopian dream, feeding/buying into their delusions of grandeur.

----------


## constituent

> Your posts have made it clear that you're not familiar with the FSP so I'm going to agree to disagree at this point.  Our triumphs, challenges <snip drivel>


slick move swapping out the insult for a sales pitch.

----------


## porcupine

Just trying to be civil.  We disagree on what the *role of government* is and that's fine.

----------


## ShowMeLiberty

> and that's exactly the problem right there.  
> 
> if you're into the hands-on in-person stuff there is *no* better place to be than where you are right now.
> 
> maybe i'm crazy, but i'll stick w/ reality and the opportunities i've got rather than pursuing someone else's utopian dream, feeding/buying into their delusions of grandeur.


"We will challenge them on all fronts - *in every state* and at all levels of government. Individual liberty must be our goal. Peace and prosperity will follow."

excerpt from "Sneak Peek at Dr. Pauls Rally for the Republic Speech"
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog/?p=393

----------


## FSP-Rebel

> and that's exactly the problem right there.  
> 
> if you're into the hands-on in-person stuff there is *no* better place to be than where you are right now.
> 
> maybe i'm crazy, but i'll stick w/ reality and the opportunities i've got rather than pursuing someone else's utopian dream, feeding/buying into their delusions of grandeur.


It has been said that insanity is trying to do the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. Liberty lovers have tried for over 30 years to use the LP as an engine to institute change and what has it gotten us? I applaud everyone for doing something, but we are at odds as to what we think will be the best use of our limited activist resources for the future, which is fine. I, for one, am excited to be going to the Rally and hope to see everyone refreshed for the future. 

What kills me is how RP folks can overlook what the national media did on the heels of the NH primary (which is like the main hang-up for most RP supporters). If there is an elitist conspiracy, which many profess, how can they possibly be stopped on a national level (talking about delusions of grandeur)? As I've said before, the prize (control of the Fed) is too great which is why liberty lovers need to consolidate their numbers in one state. I'll always be interested in any success that the C4L can achieve, but it would be nice for non-FSPers to acknowledge the success that NH is having (and will continue to have) in their own right. One of my main draws for moving to NH is to be around many other like-minded folks if and when things get bad economically. Strength in numbers will be important as time goes by... Ron said it himself, there are many many pro-freedom candidates running for office in NH--I would hope the non-interested would at least pay attention to the inevitable success that this will undoubtedly bring about. Don't forget, RP got one of the highest donation %s per capita from NH residents--so don't hate

----------


## FTL_Ian

We have already won.  If you love liberty, you should come here and win and live free with us in utopia!

NH Statist exodus in 3, 2, 1...

----------


## porcupine

> It has been said that insanity is trying to do the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. Liberty lovers have tried for over 30 years to use the LP as an engine to institute change and what has it gotten us? I applaud everyone for doing something, but we are at odds as to what we think will be the best use of our limited activist resources for the future, which is fine. I, for one, am excited to be going to the Rally and hope to see everyone refreshed for the future. 
> 
> What kills me is how RP folks can overlook what the national media did on the heels of the NH primary (which is like the main hang-up for most RP supporters). If there is an elitist conspiracy, which many profess, how can they possibly be stopped on a national level (talking about delusions of grandeur)? As I've said before, the prize (control of the Fed) is too great which is why liberty lovers need to consolidate their numbers in one state. I'll always be interested in any success that the C4L can achieve, but it would be nice for non-FSPers to acknowledge the success that NH is having (and will continue to have) in their own right. One of my main draws for moving to NH is to be around many other like-minded folks if and when things get bad economically. Strength in numbers will be important as time goes by... Ron said it himself, there are many many pro-freedom candidates running for office in NH--I would hope the non-interested would at least pay attention to the inevitable success that this will undoubtedly bring about. Don't forget, RP got one of the highest donation %s per capita from NH residents--so don't hate


^this

----------


## Dreepa

> When the Free State Project "allows" freedom of speech I'll think about it.  You know Pokerface is a Protest Band...they have ALWAYS been a protest band.  YOu sacked them due to words on their FORUM...their own private PROPERTY..SHAME ON YOU.  You need to purge your board.  You are corrupt.  NOT to mention the fiasco in the NH primaries.  PFFFT.  Tones


Tom,

Once again I have to correct you.
One individual said that. And that person was not on the board of the FSP.
The board is not corrupt.

Pokerface was not sacked by the FSP as they were not hired by the FSP.
Pokerface did play at the 2008 FSP Liberty Forum.

Again I would be happy to discuss this in MN if you wish.

constituent--- Some victories:
Stopping LOTS of bad bills 
Every Bill is reviewed (nhliberty.org) for good or bad.
Helping reducing town bills by being involved in local towns (budgets are voted by townspeople here in NH)
One FSPer elected to the NH house.
Dozens of FSPers elected at the town level.
Over 100 pro liberty people running for NH House
Over 40 Ron Paulers running for NH House

yes there have been many losses but every week it seems more people move and more locals join the up with 'us'.

If you are in MN feel free to stop by the booth and talk with me... 

I have no problem if people don't join the FSP  but bashing it when it is just getting started doesn't get anyone anything.
Regarding the primary ..... NH people want to see the candidate in person not just activists knocking on doors.  Also NH had the most candidates before they dropped out. In other states Ron didn't get as high as NH even when there were only 2-3 candidates running.
And God Bless ID and PA!

----------


## FTL_Ian

At least one member of Pokerface is a bigot.  (The other members either agree or tolerate it.)  My friends and I don't care to be around people like that, so they were ostracized.

----------


## josephadel_3

I live in Maine, so a move to NH would be relatively easy. But the thing is I don't want to commit yet.  I'm still in college and don't know where I want to live or what kind of job market I'm looking for.

----------


## mport1

Those who are complaining about the lack of success NH is having are missing the point (and as others have pointed out there have been plenty of victories).  There will only be success WHEN PEOPLE MOVE.  There are only a handful of people there right now.  If thousands of activists moved THEN we would see some real changes.

----------


## dcatman

> If only a small portion of Ron Paul supporters signed up we could get this done.  Wouldn't you want to move if 20,000 other liberty activists were going to be there?  Sadly it is looking like the federal government is beyond repair and I think concentrating our efforts in one state would have a much higher chance of success.
> 
> 
> http://www.freestateproject.org


This is an easy one.... 

I used to live in NH... Too freakin cold.  No way in hell I'm moving there.

----------


## daviddee

...

----------


## V4Vendetta

Because I don't want to move to New Hampshire and live around nothing but liberals.

----------


## porcupine

> I live in Maine, so a move to NH would be relatively easy. But the thing is I don't want to commit yet.  I'm still in college and don't know where I want to live or what kind of job market I'm looking for.


If you don't want to commit yet, the best thing to do is to sign up as a "Friend of the FSP."  It doesn't commit you to anything, but you'll get our monthly newsletter so you can keep up with the goings on of the Project.

As far as those saying New Hampshire has too many liberals, every place has liberals, but the state as a whole is definitely very libertarian in it's choices.  It's the ONLY state to not have a mandatory seat belt law for adults.  It has the lowest taxes of the 48 contiguous states (Alaska's are lower because they're subsidized by the feds) and has NO income tax and NO sales tax.  It has some of the best gun laws in the country (can open carry anywhere without a license except a courtroom, and licenses are $10 and the form is 2/3 of a page long - and shall issue.  No fingerprints or photos can be taken to get the license, and license holders ARE NOT put into a state database.  Instead, the licenses are given out locally).  The state has great privacy protections too.  

I could go on and on and on.  It's anything but a liberal state.  

Regarding the cold, if not putting on a jacket is more important to you than your freedom, you probably wouldn't fit in with us anyway.

----------


## daviddee

...

----------


## daviddee

...

----------


## daviddee

///

----------


## Micah Dardar

Well, I live in New Orleans. 
We have Mardi Gras. 
We have Bourbon Street to party the night away and drink on the streets legally. 
We exchange your blizzards for our hurricanes.
We have a less draconian law for possession of marijuana.
We probably have more jobs than New Hampshire at the moment.
We are about to be the only state where citizens have nominated Ron Paul to be on the Presidential ballot, if all goes well,  just so we can send a message to our young governor about which old Republican he should be listening to.

Hmmm... Maybe we should start the Free City Project.

----------


## porcupine

Yes, we have a state inspection law.  But we don't have a state seat belt law.  As far as rents being expensive, my rent was about 1/3 cheaper than where I moved from.  

Regarding New Orleans, I'm psyched about Ron Paul being on the ballot down there.  Consider coming up to the free state after the 2008 elections.

----------


## FSP-Rebel

> End of rant for tonight I will part with the following:
> 
> NH is about middle of the pack for most people who have actually lived/researched each of the 50 states.   By no means the freest and by no means the most restrictive.  I would put it squarely at #25...  #40 if you factor in its horrible weather as weather restricts freedom.


Oh Really? Actually, Morgan Quitno Press does annual ratings for states in many categories and they've rated NH as the #1 Most Livable State for the 5th consecutive year in a row in addition to NH being the safest state in the country. See for yourself at http://www.morganquitno.com/. As far as property taxes are concerned, they clearly need to be shrunk (hopefully to nothing in the future). But, taxes are assessed on a local level so all ya have to do is find an area which suits your tastes. Either way, the overall tax load is still the smallest of all the lower 48 states--period. 

As far as having too many liberals, that is changing faster than one might expect. NH's population took a ~5000 person dip over the last year, all the while Free Staters are moving in. 2ndly, the liberals have tried over the last 2 years to institute a sales/income tax and seatbelt law but have been shot down repeatedly. Sounds to me like NHs conservative/libertarian streak is doing just fine. Just wait and see how things  are in a year or two...

----------


## JonM

New Hampshire was chosen not just because it still against the odds retains some freedoms that have been lost in other states.  It was chosen because of all the states with lower populations, it had the best mechanisms for retaining and increasing that freedom.  

Yes, property taxes here are high.  So high they tick people off and they vote against spending more money.  Many of the most pro-liberty state reps come from towns that border MA.  And since the commonwealth of MA does not give you a credit for taxes paid to another state, those people in southern NH who commute into MA are quite against imposing an income tax.  NH towns that border MA tend to be fiscally conservative.

Right now my district which has three towns, Hudson, Litchfield and Pelham have 13 representatives in the state legislature.  That means when I vote in the primary, I get to pick up to 13 people to appear on the Republican ballot.  Come election day, I get to vote for up to 13 again.  So far the NHLA has endorsed 10 reps from these towns.  To see the report card from the last session look here: http://nhliberty.org/2008_liberty_rating
To see their 2008 endorsements look here: http://nhliberty.org/2008_endorsements

What other state has anything even close to what the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance does?  In a few months we'll see how many of the pro-liberty reps win re-election and how many are able to join them.

----------


## josephadel_3

> End of rant for tonight I will part with the following:
> 
> NH is free when compared to its neighbors... or by those who have fled the People's Republic of California.
> 
> Just because born-again-liberals consider a state free does not mean a state is free....   
> 
> NH is about middle of the pack for most people who have actually lived/researched each of the 50 states.   By no means the freest and by no means the most restrictive.  I would put it squarely at #25...  #40 if you factor in its horrible weather as weather restricts freedom.


The weather is great if you like skiing or snowboarding.  What a friggin blast! I can't wait for winter! (Mainer)

----------


## porcupine

> The weather is great if you like skiing or snowboarding.  What a friggin blast! I can't wait for winter! (Mainer)


The weather thing is really overblown.  It's not that big of a deal (at least to me).  I really enjoy the change of seasons.  It's one of the most beautiful things that you can't describe until you've experienced it.

----------


## constituent

> There will only be success WHEN PEOPLE MOVE.  There are only a handful of people there right now.  If thousands of activists moved THEN we would see some real changes.




When, If, _then_

the tired ol' libertarian mantra

Begin to devote half the time to your HOME communities that you do dreaming up clever distractions, mark my words, this country WILL get somewhere, and that's a strategy requiring no "only, when" caveat...

[not that i care, but since the thread is being bumped anyway]

----------


## roho76

> Heh. Having been born and raised in Wisconsin, I've had enough of long, sub-zero winters and all that snow.  New Hampshire would only be moreso. 
> 
> Places like Wisconsin and New England are beautiful vacation destinations, but not places I personally want to live. Besides, freedom shouldn't mean everyone who wants it has to relocate to some tiny, out-of-the-way place. Sounds too much like a "free speech zone" to me. Let's keep trying to make every state a truly free state again.


Well put.

----------


## FTL_Ian

Good luck, guys.  We'll be waiting for you in NH when you get tired of trying the same things over and over again.

In the meantime you can watch the peaceful evolution to the voluntary society occur here:
http://freekeene.com

----------


## tonesforjonesbones

I LOVE Nawlins.  I hope ya'll stay safe through this storm!  tones

----------


## porcupine

> Begin to devote half the time to your HOME communities that you do dreaming up clever distractions, mark my words, this country WILL get somewhere, and that's a strategy requiring no "only, when" caveat...


I devote plenty of time to my HOME community here in New Hampshire and I daresay I, the hundreds of free staters around me and the local libertarian activists that have come out of the woodwork since we've gotten here have gotten more done than will ever get done on the national stage.  More continue to move all the time so it'll only get better.

No, we're not there yet, but we're making slow, steady progress and having a helluva lotta fun doing it.

----------


## porcupine

Another great interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Qf6h5OUpEc

And great comments about the "umbrella" that you're missing out on.

----------


## mport1

> Another great interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Qf6h5OUpEc
> 
> And great comments about the "umbrella" that you're missing out on.


Good stuff.

----------


## Leroy_Jenkems

Change the target state from New Hampshire to MONTANA, and you can count me in. Montana is already much freer than NH anyway, and I plan to move there within the next 6-7 years.

----------


## RevolutionSD

> Good luck, guys.  We'll be waiting for you in NH when you get tired of trying the same things over and over again.
> 
> In the meantime you can watch the peaceful evolution to the voluntary society occur here:
> http://freekeene.com


Sounds good Ian, but aren't the people who want to play politics actually hurting the cause of those who want a true voluntary society? Isn't playing politics, even in the attempt at shrinking the size of government, just legitimatizing the state? To me it seems the politicos are ruining it for those who want to simply not obey.

----------


## FTL_Ian

Nope, they can go play the state's games if they want.  Doesn't hurt us at all.  We are living freer every day.

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

> Nope, they can go play the state's games if they want.  Doesn't hurt us at all.  We are living freer every day.


And making the state look more silly. 

The Couch Patrol arrives
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/022558.html

----------


## porcupine

> Change the target state from New Hampshire to MONTANA, and you can count me in. Montana is already much freer than NH anyway, and I plan to move there within the next 6-7 years.


At least you're moving for more freedom.  Concentration of liberty lovers is the important thing.

We have quite a few Montana liberty lovers moving to New Hampshire with us.  The biggest reason cited is that it's too hard to meetup with like-minded people in such a large state as Montana.  It can take all day one way to meet up with like minded people, which makes activism and liberty-focused fellowship difficult.


Moving to NH from MT: Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2E361mABw4

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Qf6h5OUpEc

Part 3: forthcoming

----------


## OferNave

I am.  Born and raised in Los Angeles, signed up in 02 or 03, made the move one year ago.  I'm writing this from Concord, NH.

Never been happier.  

BTW-Regarding recent NH political climate, there was a backlash to Bush in 2006 (yes, it affected state politics, sheep are sheep) so that Dems had a majority in the house for the first time in a century.  It won't last.  There have been nearly as many movers in the last year as there have been in all the time before that, and it's speeding up.  Several new people a week.

If you're interested, keep in eye on the state primaries coming up on Sep 9 - over 40 Ron Paul Republicans running for state rep and senate this year!  And then the NH GOP convention in late Sep, where we'll be electing new officials and changing the platform...

FSP successes have been piling up faster and faster lately, and I have great hope for all the events to come in the next two months.  As for 2010, oh boy is that going to be awesome.

PS- This is me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVhH6TQnedc

----------


## OferNave

> Sounds good Ian, but aren't the people who want to play politics actually hurting the cause of those who want a true voluntary society? Isn't playing politics, even in the attempt at shrinking the size of government, just legitimatizing the state? To me it seems the politicos are ruining it for those who want to simply not obey.


Personally, I'm a fan of both strategies.

----------


## muh_roads

I received flyers and book marks from them all day yesterday here in MN.  It sounds like a great idea.  The problem is people need to have work lined up in order to move.

I have a suggestion for the Free State Project.  Put together a job seeking index for various positions people can browse and try to apply for.  In the meantime maybe link to craigslist NH catagory or something along with other search engines.

----------


## porcupine

> I received flyers and book marks from them all day yesterday here in MN.  It sounds like a great idea.  The problem is people need to have work lined up in order to move.
> 
> I have a suggestion for the Free State Project.  Put together a job seeking index for various positions people can browse and try to apply for.  In the meantime maybe link to craigslist NH catagory or something along with other search engines.


We've got some of that over at the jobs section of FreeStateProject.org

If all that's holding you back is a job, sign the statement of intent and start lookin' .  I didn't have a job when I moved, but found one quickly (healthcare).  The cost of living is much lower here so even though I have a lower salary, I'm ahead of where I was.

----------


## muh_roads

> We've got some of that over at the jobs section of FreeStateProject.org
> 
> If all that's holding you back is a job, sign the statement of intent and start lookin' .  I didn't have a job when I moved, but found one quickly (healthcare).  The cost of living is much lower here so even though I have a lower salary, I'm ahead of where I was.


Spoke too fast.  I guess you guys are already on top of that.  It felt like such a stupid and obvious suggestion anyway...lol

----------


## Leroy_Jenkems

> At least you're moving for more freedom.  Concentration of liberty lovers is the important thing.
> 
> We have quite a few Montana liberty lovers moving to New Hampshire with us.  The biggest reason cited is that it's too hard to meetup with like-minded people in such a large state as Montana.  It can take all day one way to meet up with like minded people, which makes activism and liberty-focused fellowship difficult.


Well, I hate to be the loner grouch, but moving somewhere to get away from people altogether is my plan. Not Ted Kazinski-type solitude, more like Henry David Thoreau solitude. I'll still have the "Internets" in Montana (hopefully)

----------


## porcupine

> Well, I hate to be the loner grouch, but moving somewhere to get away from people altogether is my plan. Not Ted Kazinski-type solitude, more like Henry David Thoreau solitude. I'll still have the "Internets" in Montana (hopefully)


That's respectable.  You can still vote and stuff.  Hey, we have lots of rural areas way out of the way in New Hampshire (and some of them have high concentrations of free staters that are starting alternative economies and trying to get elected to local law enforcement positions)

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

Moved to New Hampshire yesterday. Glad I did. 
I wish I knew about this project & moved here years ago. 


If you don't want to make any commitments, I think you should at least visit NH and sign up as a friend of the Free State Project. I think you will be glad you didn't write off the FSP without having _really_ looked into it.

----------


## Leroy_Jenkems

> If you don't want to make any commitments, I think you should at least visit NH and sign up as a friend of the Free State Project. I think you will be glad you didn't write off the FSP without having _really_ looked into it.


It sounds worthy of checking out in-person for the concept alone. The self-sufficient/independent local economy infrastructure sounds very cool, too. Which leads one to ask the question:

Are there plentiful natural resources in NH? Has anyone done a geological study for minerals and the like? Are there any environmental restrictions set in place, be it on the state level or the FSP community, to limit mining prospects?

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

> It sounds worthy of checking out in-person for the concept alone. The self-sufficient/independent local economy infrastructure sounds very cool, too. Which leads one to ask the question:
> 
> Are there plentiful natural resources in NH? Has anyone done a geological study for minerals and the like? Are there any environmental restrictions set in place, be it on the state level or the FSP community, to limit mining prospects?


Sorry, I cannot answer your questions.


I bet you would have more luck if you reposted your questions over on the Free State Project Forums (http://forum.freestateproject.org/) or NH Liberty Alliance Forums (http://www.nhliberty.org/forum/).

----------


## fedup100

We might as well all go, then it will be a lot easier on the pigs when it is round up time.

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

> We might as well all go, then it will be a lot easier on the pigs when it is round up time.


The Free Stater's here won't give up easily. Many Free Stater's are armed and won't drop their guns when the Fed's walk in. NH's Constitution also protects the Right of Revolution. (The world's only Constitution which explicitly protects this right, if I'm not mistaken.)

----------


## fedup100

> The Free Stater's here won't give up easily. Many Free Stater's are armed and won't drop their guns when the Fed's walk in. NH's Constitution also protects the Right of Revolution. (The world's only Constitution which explicitly protects this right, if I'm not mistaken.)


uh huh.  I seriously doubt their passion for freedom after the primaries.

----------


## porcupine

> We might as well all go, then it will be a lot easier on the pigs when it is round up time.


Some of us are hoping to shape the future instead of submitting to it.  We can't do that in our current form.  You can't start a fire when the coals are spread out and separate.  You need to put the coals close together to build a fire that will spread.

----------


## fedup100

> Some of us are hoping to shape the future instead of submitting to it.  We can't do that in our current form.  You can't start a fire when the coals are spread out and separate.  You need to put the coals close together to build a fire that will spread.


.....my point Xactly.  This would then make it much easier to hold all our feet to the fire and watch it spread up the crack of all our asses!

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

> uh huh.  I seriously doubt their passion fro freedom after the primaries.


When I use the word "Free Staters," I am referring to Free State Project members.

And you would be hard pressed to find any majority in any state who are prepared to stand up for their rights when the Feds come busting into their houses. Also, percentage of Ron Paul votes in a primary is not the only thing to look at when detirmining a state's freedom. I would also recommend looking at this state comparison website: (http://fsp.statecomparison.com/)

----------


## porcupine

> .....my point Xactly.  This would then make it much easier to hold all our feet to the fire and watch it spread up the crack of all our asses!


Well, we'll be fighting and winning the fight for freedom here.  Let me know if freedom comes to you while your cowering in your house in front of your computer hoping the feds don't come after you.   There's always some risk in standing up for what's right.  We've accepted it and moved on.  It's worth it for a chance that we can achieve liberty in our lifetime.

----------


## fedup100

> Well, we'll be fighting and winning the fight for freedom here.  Let me know if freedom comes to you while your cowering in your house in front of your computer hoping the feds don't come after you.


No guys, you are right to push this project, but I prefer Montana.  I think we need several strong holds.

----------


## Natalie

I had very high expectations for New Hampshire before I actually went there for the primary.  I knew about the free state project, and their state motto is "Live Free or Die."  In my mind I pictured NH as this libertarian haven.  Live or Die my butt!  Ron Paul got like 7% there.  All the voters turned out for Barack.  I guess it's not such a free state after all.  

I was very disappointed by NH.

----------


## porcupine

> No guys, you are right to push this project, but I prefer Montana.  I think we need several strong holds.


I think you're right.  There's also http://www.freestatewyoming.com/ if Montana doesn't work out for you for some reason.

----------


## porcupine

> I had very high expectations for New Hampshire before I actually went there for the primary.  I knew about the free state project, and their state motto is "Live Free or Die."  In my mind I pictured NH as this libertarian haven.  Live or Die my butt!  Ron Paul got like 7% there.  All the voters turned out for Barack.  I guess it's not such a free state after all.  
> 
> I was very disappointed by NH.


Ron Paul got 8%, which is his 3rd best showing in a primary (and considering that there were something like 22 candidates at that time, 8% ain't bad.  His best showing was PA (and by that time it was easier to get higher percentages because there were only 4 candidates.  PA is NOT a free state by any stretch...which shows how bad of a metric Ron Paul votes are in deciding how free a state really is).  

No, New Hampshire isn't a libertarian haven.  _No such place exists._  NH is one of the most - if not the most - free states in the country and is the place where concentrated liberty activism can make the most difference.

Also, we're not focusing on national politics much.  It's a lost cause at this point.

----------


## Leroy_Jenkems

> No guys, you are right to push this project, but I prefer Montana.  I think we need several strong holds.


Absolutely. Plus, the mountains offer better hideouts. 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_West_Alliance
http://www.montana-alliance-for-liberty.org/

----------


## torchbearer

i'm a member, but have not moved because i can effect change easier in the area i am in because everyone knows me.

----------


## porcupine

> i'm a member, but have not moved because i can effect change easier in the area i am in because everyone knows me.


Try to make it up to one of our events.  Porcupine Freedom Festival in the summer and the Liberty Forum in the winter.

----------


## torchbearer

> Try to make it up to one of our events.  Porcupine Freedom Festival in the summer and the Liberty Forum in the winter.


I've spent a fortune attending rallys, marches, and conventions in 2007-2008.
I've incurred debts that i must repay. It isn't that easy just to attend.
Plus, I'm now saddled with obligations to the campaign for liberty.
And i'm sure i'm not the only one in this position.

----------


## OferNave

> No, New Hampshire isn't a libertarian haven.  _No such place exists._  NH is one of the most - if not the most - free states in the country and is the place where concentrated liberty activism can make the most difference.
> 
> Also, we're not focusing on national politics much.  It's a lost cause at this point.


Bingo.

If anyone's curious, I suggest you spend a few hours browsing random videos here - the channel of our endearing, tireless, guerilla news videographer, Dave Ridley:

http://www.youtube.com/RidleyReport

That will give you a first person taste of what it's like to be here.  I'm telling you, there's nothing like it anywhere else.

----------


## OferNave

> I've spent a fortune attending rallys, marches, and conventions in 2007-2008.
> I've incurred debts that i must repay. It isn't that easy just to attend.
> Plus, I'm now saddled with obligations to the campaign for liberty.
> And i'm sure i'm not the only one in this position.


I sympathize.  I would still recommend that you try to attendone of the FSP events as soon as it's convenient for you if you are at all on the fence about wanting to make the move someday.

If you're already sold, but it's just not time yet, then keep kicking ass and taking names in LA.  When your work there is done, or you've decided that your immediate personal liberty is too important to put off any longer, we'll be waiting for you.

And don't worry about having to start over.  I promise you you'll know three hundred people in three months.

----------


## TastyWheat

Legislators get paid $100 a year?  Did I read that right?  How does it help when only the rich can afford to serve?  I could understand a living wage but that's not even minimum wage.  Does the legislator only meet on the weekends?

----------


## Micah Dardar

> I think you're right.  There's also http://www.freestatewyoming.com/ if Montana doesn't work out for you for some reason.


Wyoming is boring to the max

----------


## porcupine

> Legislators get paid $100 a year?  Did I read that right?  How does it help when only the rich can afford to serve?  I could understand a living wage but that's not even minimum wage.  Does the legislator only meet on the weekends?


No it's not a "living wage" because legislating is not their job.  In New Hampshire, unlike in most other states, being in the legislature is volunteer work, not a full time job.  Our legislatures have real jobs so that they stay grounded in reality.  They also can't afford to spend too much time passing laws, and we like that too.  That's how it was in the early days of America and it's still like that in the Free State.   It also creates a good system of self-imposed term limits because our legislatures don't make careers out of the job.

----------


## porcupine

> Wyoming is boring to the max


We're having a helluva lot of fun in New Hampshire!

For instance, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0hZnpK7Pt8

----------


## Micah Dardar

> We're having a helluva lot of fun in New Hampshire!
> 
> For instance, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0hZnpK7Pt8


Well, I'm sick of hurricanes, and my 4 year old wants to live in the snow. Do you know where I could get a job up there with a B.S. in Biology with a minor in Chemistry? I definitely could not go there unless I have a job lined up.

----------


## OferNave

> Well, I'm sick of hurricanes, and my 4 year old wants to live in the snow. Do you know where I could get a job up there with a B.S. in Biology with a minor in Chemistry? I definitely could not go there unless I have a job lined up.


Well, I'd obviously try the colleges first.  University of New Hampshire and Dartmouth are the big ones.

I know a geneticist who used to work at Dartmouth.  If you private message me, I'll forward you his email address.

Other than that, I would suggest you hunt for a job in the usual way.  Monster.com, craigslist, nhjobs.com, jobsinnh.com, and of course, the FSP site itself (and other NH pro-liberty forums, like nhfree.com).

----------


## OferNave

> Legislators get paid $100 a year?  Did I read that right?  How does it help when only the rich can afford to serve?  I could understand a living wage but that's not even minimum wage.  Does the legislator only meet on the weekends?


Well, if a candidate you like can't afford to spend the time away from their normal job, you are of course free to subsidize that person out of your own pocket.    However, rest assured that money will not be taken from our taxpayers at gun point to compensate elected officials for passing laws against us.  That's an insult we do not allow to be added to injury.

I'd make it $0/year if I could, but $100 is so small already that it's silly to spend time on it while there are more important things to do.

----------


## scandinaviany3

should be moving to like SC, MT, WA, OR, NV, CO, ID, ND, MN

----------


## TastyWheat

> No it's not a "living wage" because legislating is not their job.  In New Hampshire, unlike in most other states, being in the legislature is volunteer work, not a full time job.  Our legislatures have real jobs so that they stay grounded in reality.  They also can't afford to spend too much time passing laws, and we like that too.  That's how it was in the early days of America and it's still like that in the Free State.   It also creates a good system of self-imposed term limits because our legislatures don't make careers out of the job.


That makes sense then.  I would agree that the less they do the better off we are, but it's typical for an elected position to be "full time" so that's where I was confused.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> @Brian. How much to do you know about the project? Your criticisms appear quite standard. I recommend you look around the main website and even participant's websites (like RidleyReport.com, Freestateblogs.net/blog/2  Here's some of the Project's victories, for instance: http://freestateblogs.net/victories06) before you say such things.
> 
> 
> 
> @All. In my opinion, here's one more good reason to move:


Ha, that's classic.

Hope the door doesn't hit 'em in the ass on the way out.

----------


## speciallyblend

Colorado vs NH hmmmm pretty much says it, i wouldn't move east of denver even if someone paid me to.      last time i looked the co mtns already votes in majority on many issues free state talks about.  sorry NH   I was reborn in Colorado, rocky mtn high coloradoooooo

----------


## constituent

> Ha, that's classic.
> 
> Hope the door doesn't hit 'em in the ass on the way out.


yea, once in california, folks should stay in california less they spread the taint.

----------


## JosephTheLibertarian

> If only a small portion of Ron Paul supporters signed up we could get this done.  Wouldn't you want to move if 20,000 other liberty activists were going to be there?  Sadly it is looking like the federal government is beyond repair and I think concentrating our efforts in one state would have a much higher chance of success.
> 
> 
> http://www.freestateproject.org


because I don't want to live in a community that will constantly nag "that's not libertarian" "what about the non aggression principle?" "you shouldn't use p2p software or torrentz" I'm better off with big brother

----------


## porcupine

> Well, I'm sick of hurricanes, and my 4 year old wants to live in the snow. Do you know where I could get a job up there with a B.S. in Biology with a minor in Chemistry? I definitely could not go there unless I have a job lined up.


We have a jobs and employment section of the free state project forum (http://forum.freestateproject.org/) and there are a lot of people who know the NH job market well there.  I'd recommend checking it out.  We also have a jobs section of the website to help people find jobs.

----------


## porcupine

> should be moving to like SC, MT, WA, OR, NV, CO, ID, ND, MN


All the discussion and research leading up to the selection of the original 10 states and then the final vote on NH are archived on our website.  I'll tell you right now that SC, WA, OR, NV, CO and MN are way too populous and were never considered on that alone.

----------


## porcupine

> because I don't want to live in a community that will constantly nag "that's not libertarian" "what about the non aggression principle?" "you shouldn't use p2p software or torrentz" I'm better off with big brother


Yikes...I wouldn't want to hang out with the libertarians you know.

----------


## Dreepa

$100 get you:

The NH House meets 3 days a week Jan -June.
Sometimes 4 days.
Voting is 'normally' on Wednesdays.
How busy depends on which committees you get assigned to.

If they aren't in session they usually can't do too much harm.

Lots of people signed up to be an FSP friend at the Rally for the Republic.
The turnout was great there.

----------


## Leroy_Jenkems

> All the discussion and research leading up to the selection of the original 10 states and then the final vote on NH are archived on our website.  I'll tell you right now that SC, WA, OR, NV, CO and MN are way too populous and were never considered on that alone.


With regard to SC - Nowhere in the South is suitable for a libertarian free state, NOWHERE. People here are way too gullible in swallowing the two-party, "lesser of two evils" BS hook, line, and sinker.

----------


## porcupine

Reviewing all the people who don't want to move to New Hampshire because of the cold or whatever, I thought of this quote:

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands, which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." ~~ Samuel Adams

----------


## constituent

there's a reason the brits lost at concord.

----------


## me3

> there's a reason the brits lost at concord.


The short guy in the middle?

----------


## constituent

> The short guy in the middle?


*big-ass grin*

----------


## porcupine

> the short guy in the middle?


lmao!!

----------


## JosephTheLibertarian

> Yikes...I wouldn't want to hang out with the libertarians you know.


I am the only libertarian I know

----------


## porcupine

> I am the only libertarian I know


Heh 

A problem easily fixed by joining the Free State Project.  We're nice too...at least most of us are ... I can't see anyone lecturing you about downloading music, like you had surmised earlier.

Anyway, on any given Tuesday Night, you can meet as many as 50 libertarian activists hanging out at Murphy's Taproom in Manchester.  Some free staters get together to go shooting at one of member's private firing range that he built in his backyard (without the need to ask permission from the gov't I might add) and we have around 20 libertarians show up on any given Sunday. (*Here* is a video of one of those Sunday events and *Here* is a video of them when they were building the range).  There is literally an event like that almost every day of the week, so you wouldn't have too much trouble finding libertarian friends here.

----------


## JosephTheLibertarian

> Heh 
> 
> A problem easily fixed by joining the Free State Project.  We're nice too...at least most of us are ... I can't see anyone lecturing you about downloading music, like you had surmised earlier.
> 
> Anyway, on any given Tuesday Night, you can meet as many as 50 libertarian activists hanging out at Murphy's Taproom in Manchester.  Some free staters get together to go shooting at one of member's private firing range that he built in his backyard (without the need to ask permission from the gov't I might add) and we have around 25 libertarians show up on any given Sunday.  There is literally an event like that almost every day of the week, so you wouldn't have too much trouble finding libertarian friends here.


how much did you save or whatever to move to NH? I have money in the thousands, but I'm going to school and stuff at this time.

----------


## porcupine

> how much did you save or whatever to move to NH? I have money in the thousands, but I'm going to school and stuff at this time.


First, I updated my post above with some videos if you're interested.

Hmmm...I think I saved about $1500 for the move here (it cost about $500 for the actual move, and then I gave myself a cushion for finding a job, which wasn't difficult).  I transferred schools to move to NH.  You can also rent a room in a house full of libertarians (we call them *Porc Manors*) and the prices are pretty cheap so that might help with the money and the libertarian friend problem.  You can get a greater range of experience and advice at the *FSP forum.*

Another option is, instead of transferring, to be a visiting student at a NH school.

Right after graduating school is a great time to move because you can get your first job in NH and make the move with little to no difficulty.

----------


## jabrownie

My dad mentioned something about a similar thing being attempted in South Carolina.  Heard anything about it?  The weather would be so much nicer there, it'd probably be easier to get people to go.

----------


## porcupine

> My dad mentioned something about a similar thing being attempted in South Carolina.  Heard anything about it?  The weather would be so much nicer there, it'd probably be easier to get people to go.


Yeah, it's called Christian Exodus and is an effort to fundamentalist Christian Constitutionalists (think Chuck Baldwin types) to move to South Carolina.  Unfortunately, they have not been very successful in getting people to move.

The thing is that South Carolina's population is just too large to make a big difference.

----------


## erika

> If only a small portion of Ron Paul supporters signed up we could get this done.  Wouldn't you want to move if 20,000 other liberty activists were going to be there?  Sadly it is looking like the federal government is beyond repair and I think concentrating our efforts in one state would have a much higher chance of success.
> 
> 
> http://www.freestateproject.org


Let's start one in california!

----------


## porcupine

> Let's start one in california!


California is a lost cause.  Too big, too socialist.  There already is "one" in California.  It's called the Libertarian Party and it's failing miserably.  A new strategy is needed if you want your efforts to mean something and bring about real, noticeable change.

See* this blog post* for more info on the California Liberty Movement

----------


## erika

> California is a lost cause.  Too big, too socialist.  There already is "one" in California.  It's called the Libertarian Party and it's failing miserably.  A new strategy is needed if you want your efforts to mean something and bring about real, noticeable change.
> 
> See* this blog post* for more info on the California Liberty Movement


What do you suggest other than moving? I don't want to move to a cold climate state and be around east coasters(for many reasons). 

If anyone else wants to start a ca. group,  I think it can be done.

----------


## Jeremy

Some of you need to stop "requesting" other states.  They spent a great deal of time deciding on and voting on which state it will be and New Hampshire won for the right reasons.




> If anyone else wants to start a ca. group, I think it can be done.


CA would be one of the wort states to do this in.................. wow....

----------


## erika

> Some of you need to stop "requesting" other states.  They spent a great deal of time deciding on and voting on which state it will be and New Hampshire won for the right reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> CA would be one of the wort states to do this in.................. wow....


I never got to vote. 

I think you're wrong about ca. There is a lot of activism here that could be put in a better direction.

----------


## parke

> Only in the summer. DC for me.


Sounds like that would be the best place for freedom loving people to go to...

----------


## Jeremy

> I never got to vote. 
> 
> I think you're wrong about ca. There is a lot of activism here that could be put in a better direction.


You already live there?  That would explain why you mentioned it then, hm?  The point of the Free State Project is to move with tons of other people to the chosen state.  That state is NH.  I don't understand what you mean when you asked for some group to join.  I'm sure you can join a CFL group there, but.... there's not a free state project in every state.... it's NH, and that's it!

CA is also one of the worse states and was probably not even nominated for the vote (I wasn't around back then either).  What you have there is increasing government and you can't get anything done in such a huge area.  I find it hard to believe that you consider it one of the best whileI consider it one of the worse.  But hey, my state is horrible too.  The only good thing about it is that it's small... but that's not near enough (CT).

----------


## porcupine

> I never got to vote. 
> 
> I think you're wrong about ca. There is a lot of activism here that could be put in a better direction.


If you've lived in California for awhile, you might not realize how truly unfree you are in California.




> I don't want to move to a cold climate state and be around east coasters(for many reasons).


May your chains rest lightly upon you.  A person who wouldn't trade a bit of cold for more freedom isn't the type of person that is moving anyway.




> If anyone else wants to start a ca. group,  I think it can be done.


Once again, there are already plenty of groups working for liberty in California, the Libertarian party not the least of them.  Their effect has been almost nil.  It will continue to be worthless...but feel free to try to pour your heart into doing the same thing and expecting different results.


Look, you're saying "hey, let's start a group like this where I do the least amount of effort and everyone ELSE moves to where I am."  WE on the other hand have moved from our own homes and made the sacrifices to move to the state where are efforts can actually mean something.  If you aren't willing to move to a freer state where 600+ liberty activists have already migrated to, what makes you think others will migrate to a less free state where their efforts will be less effective and they'll be drowned out by CA's massive population?

----------


## erika

> You already live there?  That would explain why you mentioned it then, hm?  The point of the Free State Project is to move with tons of other people to the chosen state.  That state is NH.  I don't understand what you mean when you asked for some group to join.  I'm sure you can join a CFL group there, but.... there's not a free state project in every state.... it's NH, and that's it!
> 
> CA is also one of the worse states and was probably not even nominated for the vote (I wasn't around back then either).  What you have there is increasing government and you can't get anything done in such a huge area.  I find it hard to believe that you consider it one of the best whileI consider it one of the worse.  But hey, my state is horrible too.  The only good thing about it is that it's small... but that's not near enough (CT).


I think every state should have something like this, not just NH.

That was my point.

----------


## porcupine

> You already live there?  That would explain why you mentioned it then, hm?  The point of the Free State Project is to move with tons of other people to the chosen state.


Yeah, people always suggest their own states because it wouldn't require them to put any effort forward or move outside their comfort zones.  I don't really have time for such people.
_
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands, which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."_  Sam Adams

----------


## porcupine

> I think every state should have something like this, not just NH.
> 
> That was my point.


They already do.  It's the libertarian party.  

Perhaps you don't understand the idea of CONCENTRATING liberty activism.  By definition, you can't have that in every state.

----------


## erika

> They already do.  It's the libertarian party.  
> 
> Perhaps you don't understand the idea of CONCENTRATING liberty activism.  By definition, you can't have that in every state.


That's not what I meant. The libertarian party will never be a success out here with the border issue. 

Perhaps YOU don't understand the idea that not everyone wants to live in your $#@!hole bad weather of a state.

----------


## Micah Dardar

> That's not what I meant. The libertarian party will never be a success out here with the border issue. 
> 
> Perhaps YOU don't understand the idea that not everyone wants to live in your $#@!hole bad weather of a state.


Forest fires? Snow? Earthquakes? Hurricanes? Tornadoes? I guess that "$#@!hole" is relative to what you are used to.

----------


## erika

> Forest fires? Snow? Earthquakes? Hurricanes? Tornadoes? I guess that "$#@!hole" is relative to what you are used to.


All rarities and not a common thing. I would imagine that NH has Forest fires, Snow, hurricane effect, and massive cold storms.  

We don't have tornados. A funnel cloud here and there, nothing big time. Very rare.

Earthquakes only if you're in a bad area with a nasty fault line. I'm not.

A lot of ugly people on the east coast too. I'll pass.

----------


## spacehabitats

Well, for one thing, I have children that I would like to see grow up in a country that still has some semblance of liberty.

To do that most of the people with some clue about what's going on have to stay dispersed throughout the nation and convert/educate more citizens.

We need to be a "light unto the world".

----------


## JosephTheLibertarian

> That's not what I meant. The libertarian party will never be a success out here with the border issue. 
> 
> Perhaps YOU don't understand the idea that not everyone wants to live in your $#@!hole bad weather of a state.


Well, there are many pro-Borders LP members. I know Bob Barr is anti-illegal immigration.

----------


## Leroy_Jenkems

> A lot of ugly people on the east coast too. I'll pass.


I'm sure your at least half-kidding. Whether people up there are ugly or not, a petty and shallow thing such as vanity shouldn't be the litmus test of seeking a place to live in more liberty.

One thing I would argue with you against setting up such a project in CA - the demographics of CA (SoCal especially) are rapidly changing, are they not? Do the majority of these people shun government aid, benefits, programs, etc?

You can be damn sure that in a state like CA where taxes on the state level for various absurdities are MUCH higher than states like NH, WY, MT, or ID, if you set up a concentration of people who will resist the remittance of these taxes to the state, the state will be coming after you a lot faster than one with lower taxes. They'll miss that tax money a lot more sorely than the states which don't have as big of an operating budget.

Just be ready to go Rambo in the redwoods.

----------


## porcupine

> The libertarian party will never be a success out here


*Bingo!!!!!!!!!!*





> Perhaps YOU don't understand the idea that not everyone wants to live in your $#@!hole bad weather of a state.


Well, as I said, may your chains rest lightly upon you.  It was a lot colder at Valley Forge.  Liberty is worth it.

----------


## porcupine

> Well, for one thing, I have children that I would like to see grow up in a country that still has some semblance of liberty.
> 
> To do that most of the people with some clue about what's going on have to stay dispersed throughout the nation and convert/educate more citizens.
> 
> We need to be a "light unto the world".


Good luck with that!  Hope all your hard work pays off for you in a better way than it has for others in the last 30-50 years who got nothing in return.

The definition of insanity...

OH!  And here's another reason to leave California: *REAL ID IS NOW LAW IN CA*.  Enjoy the weather.

----------


## JosephTheLibertarian

> Good luck with that!  Hope all your hard work pays off for you in a better way than it has for others in the last 30-50 years who got nothing in return.
> 
> The definition of insanity...
> 
> OH!  And here's another reason to leave California: *REAL ID IS NOW LAW IN CA*.  Enjoy the weather.


I have a real id. It's called a driver's license 

lol

----------


## FSP-Rebel

> I think every state should have something like this, not just NH.
> 
> That was my point.


I understand where you're coming from on the whole weather deal and I'm sure if the cards were stacked in favor of a warmer state that it would've been chosen. Unfortunately right off the bat, warmer states have higher levels of crime--and CA's gun control doesn't help its cause.

Every state should be Free, but that's not possible at this time. NH was chosen for many reasons and would be the easiest to achieve "Liberty in our Lifetime" which is the FSP motto. From there, we can show the rest of the country, and maybe the world, that liberty can work. The one thing that us liberty lovers can't mess with is a state that is thoroughly populated with statists. Sorry, but CA doesn't have a streak of libertarianism or traditional conservatism. 

My advice to those who aren't fans of the FSP (for whatever reason) or are fence-sitters is to sign the statement of intent on the FSP website and then relax and watch the effects that the Project is having on NH. It doesn't cost anyone anything to signup nor is anyone going to hunt you or yours down to make you fulfill your future obligation. Once the FSP is in 4th gear and achieves 20,000 signers (though a re-assessment of the numbers, based on the current activism rate, has signified that only 2000-3000 movers is necessary for real change) there is a 5-yr window in which folks have the time to make the move. The bottom-line here is, if you knew ~20,000 other pro-liberty folks were moving to NH for freedom and you can tangibly view that freedom, why would you not want to move and enjoy the freedom with your loved ones. My view on freedom is that I owe it to posterity as a moral duty (everyone has there own reasons) and so I plan to be an early mover (this next spring once I graduate college) to help facilitate the freedom atmosphere and consequentially promote it to the rest of the yearning souls that desire it. 

If nothing else, take a vacation to NH and see what it's all about. If you do, make sure to mention your trip on forum.freestateproject.org
and folks will meet you for drinks and/or whatever. If you meet these activists and decide that what they offer isn't what you're looking for, then freedom is not your thing--so to speak... 

Again, if you're interested enough to sign up, do so this week as the hosts from Free Talk Live are donating $10 for each FSP signup to the St. Jude's Children Fund. Let's help unfortunate children while finalizing the FSP. See you in the Free State

----------


## FSP-Rebel

And just as a side note, 147/161 pro-liberty candidates made it through their primaries this last tuesday in NH. Does your state have that good of a casualty rate? Instead of the Prez election, pay attention to how many of those NH candidates get elected and then ask yourself if you really want freedom.

----------


## porcupine

> I have a real id. It's called a driver's license 
> 
> lol


I don't.  I live in New Hampshire.

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

The Free State Project: The Real Deal
by Sunni Maravillosa

I remember hearing about the Free State Project back when Jason Sorens was recruiting feedback for the idea. Having heard of plenty of other "let's form our own group" schemes, I smiled, nodded, and pushed the delete key, and expected to hear maybe one or two more things about the project at most. I'm delighted to say that I was wrong.

I am not a porcupine -- that's the animal FSPers have fittingly chosen as their mascot. Thus, I'm not an expert or an insider. My interest in the FSP lies in two areas: 1) some people whose opinions I respect and who are very dear to me have signed on; and 2) I am interested in seeing "liberty in my lifetime", which is what the FSP intends to achieve. After grilling my friends about the FSP at length, and making email acquaintance with one of their officers and proceeding to put that individual through a similar wringer, I'm satisfied that the FSP is the real deal. What convinced me wasn't any report or argument from my friends -- it was attending an FSP event and seeing firsthand the kinds of individuals who'll be involved in this project when it comes to fruition... (Read more)





> My advice to those who aren't fans of the FSP (for whatever reason) or are fence-sitters is to sign the statement of intent on the FSP website and then relax and watch the effects that the Project is having on NH.


I disagree. Only if you are serious should you sign the statement of intent. But most movers become a Friend of the FSP before they commit and I encourage you fence-sitters to do as well. 

You can do that here: http://www.freestateproject.org/user...nd&tabs=hidden

You get periodical emails and a monthly newsletter letting you know what's happening in NH.

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## porcupine

> And just as a side note, 147/161 pro-liberty candidates made it through their primaries this last tuesday in NH. Does your state have that good of a casualty rate? Instead of the Prez election, pay attention to how many of those NH candidates get elected and then ask yourself if you really want freedom.


The number is actually 153/165 or 92%!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF-5D4U_NDc

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## FSP-Rebel

> The number is actually 153/165 or 92%!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF-5D4U_NDc


Even Better!

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## FSP-Rebel

> Here's an analogy that explains the Free State Project strategy well: imagine liberty lovers as warm pieces of coal, when the coal is spread out it slowly cools, but when it is in one place it warms each other up and things around it. 
> 
> The Free State Project is an effort to use the multiplying effect: 2 people working together is equal to 4 people working alone. Imagine what the possibilities are when liberty activists can back each other up in the hundreds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. Only if you are serious should you sign the statement of intent. But most movers become a Friend of the FSP before they commit and I encourage you fence-sitters to do as well.


Pound for pound, I would say that people become more serious once they've signed up. And once signed up, people will be more inclined to stay up to date on the goings-on in NH via the forum and such instead of forgetting about it. Seems to me that the SOI would fit most all RP supporters or liberty lovers in general. Either way, rock on!

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## scandinaviany3

the west is where the exodus needs to happen not the northeast..more votes, farther from washington, much better position all the way around to be in

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## OferNave

I was born and raised in Los Angeles, home of the perpetual sunny day.  I moved to NH a year ago, and haven't looked back.  I can't imagine leaving now.

Really, will you accept significantly less freedom for lack of a decent winter coat and some snow tires?

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## JosephTheLibertarian

> I don't.  I live in New Hampshire.


You don't need a driver's license in NH?

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## porcupine

> You don't need a driver's license in NH?


My driver's license in New Hampshire doesn't put me into a national database and doesn't allow biometrics to be part of getting the license, which differentiates it from Real ID.  Also, the state can't keep your social security # or photo in their state database without your permission, by state law.

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## porcupine

> the west is where the exodus needs to happen not the northeast..more votes, farther from washington, much better position all the way around to be in


There's a smaller and much less active movement out West: http://www.freestatewyoming.com/

Check it out.  The important thing is that we stop scattering our efforts.  People working together are exponentially more effective than people working separately.

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## Leroy_Jenkems

The following states should be removed from consideration of setting up a Free State Community, indefinitely:

California
New York
Florida
Michigan
New Jersey
Pennsylvania


Did I leave any out?

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## Micah Dardar

> The following states should be removed from consideration of setting up a Free State Community, indefinitely:
> 
> California
> New York
> Florida
> Michigan
> New Jersey
> Pennsylvania
> 
> ...


Texas
Florida x2
Indiana
Virginia
Kentucky

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## porcupine

> The following states should be removed from consideration of setting up a Free State Community, indefinitely:
> 
> California
> New York
> Florida
> Michigan
> New Jersey
> Pennsylvania
> 
> ...


Massachusetts
Illinois
Wisconsin
Maryland

I think that rounds out the ten WORST states for a free state movement.

I think that there are only about 10 states where the idea would even have a theoretical shot, all of them being very low population states (New Hampshire is the only one with a good job market, which is very important when you get into the practical aspects of getting people to move).

One thing I've learned from working on this project, though, is that you need at least 20 committed people willing to work without pay or praise for years on end to even get an organization like this off the ground.  The task is just so monumental, it's hard to sustain.  That's why 5 free state movements have failed in just the last 5 years.  

I don't know that the liberty movement is big enough to sustain more than one free state movement (though I hope it's big enough to sustain two because I think the folks in Free State Wyoming are good people and their project is a good alternative, but I see them going the way of the Free West Alliance, North to the Future, and all the other failed free state movements.

If we in the Free State Project succeed, we will truly have made a permanent place for ourselves in history.  Speaking of which, we reached 572 movers today!   Our signup rate has been increasing lately and the number of movers has been increasing too.  I'm very optimistic, but it's going to take some time.  In the meantime, I'm having a blast!

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## Flash

> And just as a side note, 147/161 pro-liberty candidates made it through their primaries this last tuesday in NH. Does your state have that good of a casualty rate? Instead of the Prez election, pay attention to how many of those NH candidates get elected and then ask yourself if you really want freedom.



I'm curious are these Libertarians or Republicans?

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## porcupine

> I'm curious are these Libertarians or Republicans?


Mostly Republicans, some Democrats.  They're on major party ballot lines so a good amount of them should get elected.

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## Scotso

I'm on their mailing list, but I wouldn't move there.  Toooooo coooooold!

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## porcupine

> I'm on their mailing list, but I wouldn't move there.  Toooooo coooooold!


That's good.  I recommend that anyone who doesn't want to commit to move should still *sign up as a friend of the project* and get the newsletter.

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## runamuck

I was part of a "Free State Project" long before such a thing existed as I've been living in NH my whole life and fighting to keep our state true to its origins!

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## Leroy_Jenkems

> Massachusetts
> Illinois
> Wisconsin
> Maryland
> 
> I think that rounds out the ten WORST states for a free state movement.
> ...
> I don't know that the liberty movement is big enough to sustain more than one free state movement (though I hope it's big enough to sustain two because I think the folks in Free State Wyoming are good people and their project is a good alternative, but I see them going the way of the Free West Alliance, North to the Future, and all the other failed free state movements.
> 
> If we in the Free State Project succeed, we will truly have made a permanent place for ourselves in history.  Speaking of which, we reached 572 movers today!   Our signup rate has been increasing lately and the number of movers has been increasing too.  I'm very optimistic, but it's going to take some time.  In the meantime, I'm having a blast!


Aww damn, Virginia was an easy one, how'd I miss that?! 

Porcupine, do you have much contact with anybody in the Free State WY project?  Do you have knowledge of the undoings of the other orgs you mentioned (FWA, NttF)? I personally like the Montana-Wyoming part of the country, so I'd like to gain any knowledge of the history of Freedom projects enacted out there.

Congratulations on achieving the current tally! You all are truly the leaders. Whoever the unnamed souls are who devoted years without pay and recognition to this project are great human beings in the most sacred sentiment. God bless all of them.

----------


## FTL_Ian

> That's not what I meant. The libertarian party will never be a success out here with the border issue. 
> 
> Perhaps YOU don't understand the idea that not everyone wants to live in your $#@!hole bad weather of a state.


Translation: You are anti-freedom-to-travel.

Please stay out of NH, as we will be seceding and opening the "borders".

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## FTL_Ian

> You don't need a driver's license in NH?


Nope:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6Up_wnqrKY

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## Josh_LA

> Translation: You are anti-freedom-to-travel.
> 
> Please stay out of NH, as we will be seceding and opening the "borders".


So ummm, what good is seceding if you don't have borders to guard against tyranny?

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## porcupine

> Porcupine, do you have much contact with anybody in the Free State WY project?  Do you have knowledge of the undoings of the other orgs you mentioned (FWA, NttF)? I personally like the Montana-Wyoming part of the country, so I'd like to gain any knowledge of the history of Freedom projects enacted out there.


I don't personally know any of the people in Free State Wyoming, but I agree with the _idea_ of free state movements and concentrated liberty activism so I try to support them.  The downsides with Wyoming are that the FSW is not very active and has very few movers.  I also have not seen any evidence of activism once they get there.  To me, New Hampshire is far superior to Wyoming in those respects...If you watch our home page, we have people moving and signing up daily.  We also have a news feed on the main page that continuously shows what we're up to.  The FSW on the other hand hasn't even updated their site in 18 months.  However, for someone who can't/won't move to New Hampshire, I'd advise them to at least join the FSW and pitch their efforts in with the good folks in FSW. To learn more, check out the forums on http://www.freestatewyoming.com/

I really don't know anything about the other various failed free state movements.   The impression I got of them were that they were very much like all the people on this thread.  They wanted the benefits of the Free State Project without _personally_ being willing to undergo the sacrifices so they just said "hey everybody, come move to where _I LIVE_!"  Of course, no one came and they fizzled quickly.  The thing that differentiates the Free State Project is that none of the founders or the board of directors of the Project are _from_ New Hampshire.  They all believed in it enough to move from where they lived.




> Congratulations on achieving the current tally! You all are truly the leaders. Whoever the unnamed souls are who devoted years without pay and recognition to this project are great human beings in the most sacred sentiment. God bless all of them.


We're very excited with our recent spurt of growth.  Much of it is Ron Paul activists who heard about the Project at the DC March or MN Convention.  And yes, we've got some of the most amazing people here.  They're the type of people who get things done and don't worry about who gets the credit.  I'm telling you, the moving process really sifts the doers from the talkers and makes sure the people who get here are grade-A activists.  I'm just honored to be part of this.

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## FTL_Ian

> So ummm, what good is seceding if you don't have borders to guard against tyranny?


Gun freedom should handle it.  Why do you think Hitler chose not to invade Switzerland?

In case you haven't noticed, the tyranny is already here.  Beefing up "border security" only increases the size and intrusiveness of the police state.

If you try to control the lives of others, you will only end up finding yourself controlled.

Please consider trying true liberty and allow your neighbors to be free.

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## porcupine

> So ummm, what good is seceding if you don't have borders to guard against tyranny?


Not all FSP members want open borders Josh.  It's a varied group so keep that in mind.  Ian is a very convincing guy though if you listen to his show 

It's important for people who don't like a particular policy position of one of the FSP members to remember that we have 9,000 members...we're all very different, but we all want liberty.

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## FTL_Ian

For those who claim to support liberty and at the same time advocate restricting people from moving here, consider this:

"Borders" are another example of the tragedy of the commons.  All property should be privately owned, and each property owner should be free to decide what rules apply to his land.  If you want to build a big fence to keep people out, you can.

Just don't tell me what to do with MY property.

If I want people born on other plots of land around the world to be able to come live and/or work on my property, who are you to say otherwise?

Do you own me?

Do you own my property?

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## mport1

> It's important for people who don't like a particular policy position of one of the FSP members to remember that we have 9,000 members...we're all very different, but we all want liberty.


+1

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## Libertarian Ideals

> For those who claim to support liberty and at the same time advocate restricting people from moving here, consider this:
> 
> *"Borders" are another example of the tragedy of the commons.* All property should be privately owned, and each property owner should be free to decide what rules apply to his land.  If you want to build a big fence to keep people out, you can.
> 
> Just don't tell me what to do with MY property.
> 
> If I want people born on other plots of land around the world to be able to come live and/or work on my property, who are you to say otherwise?
> 
> Do you own me?
> ...


Ahh, that's a nice way to put it.

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## Josh_LA

> Gun freedom should handle it.  Why do you think Hitler chose not to invade Switzerland?
> 
> In case you haven't noticed, the tyranny is already here.  Beefing up "border security" only increases the size and intrusiveness of the police state.
> 
> If you try to control the lives of others, you will only end up finding yourself controlled.
> 
> Please consider trying true liberty and allow your neighbors to be free.


Ok great!

*So by your logic, we canuse guns to guard against Mexican invasion and NAU mergers (if we see them as tyrannical).* So much for your "open borders", just admit it, you're not against borders, you're against borders when the government does it, you have no problem with vigilante violence to enforce borders. Of course you need border enforcement of some sort, or you can't stop the federal government from sending troops to impose their unwanted rules, or communists from participating in your community to vote your system into bankruptcy (oh yes, I know you're going to say, that's either not a bad thing or by that time you'd have figured out how to deal with it)

*Duh, of course I've noticed tyranny is already here. So we should allow tyrants to be free to F- us, right? Or should we use force to fight them?* There is no "police state" if the police is democratically or community owned (like Minutemen and Neighborhood Watch). 

Yes I agree, if you control others you'll end up being controlled, that's why it's important to be reactionary and keep people interactive ,rather than let live when you know something's wrong!

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## Josh_LA

> For those who claim to support liberty and at the same time advocate restricting people from moving here, consider this:
> 
> "Borders" are another example of the tragedy of the commons.  All property should be privately owned, and each property owner should be free to decide what rules apply to his land.  If you want to build a big fence to keep people out, you can.
> 
> Just don't tell me what to do with MY property.
> 
> If I want people born on other plots of land around the world to be able to come live and/or work on my property, who are you to say otherwise?
> 
> Do you own me?
> ...


Yes Ian, I agree, if people were hired and wanted here, WHO ARE WE TO SAY OTHERWISE.

But if they are NOT hired, NOT welcome, who are we NOT to say we can kick them out for the reasons we feel like?

And what's wrong with a community coming together and saying collectively, we share a common border, so collectively, we can keep out unwelcome guests (call it a country or a city or a street, people do it all the time).

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## constituent

> And what's wrong with a community coming together and saying collectively, we share a common border, so collectively, we can keep out unwelcome guests (call it a country or a city or a street, people do it all the time).


Because communities are imagined....


I'll give a little....


transient at best.

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## Josh_LA

> "Borders" are another example of the tragedy of the commons.  All property should be privately owned, and each property owner should be free to decide what rules apply to his land.  If you want to build a big fence to keep people out, you can.



Yes, by your logic, hallways and roads should be private owned too, so stepping one inch out of your house should warrant charging you a toll, right?

So that's really an easy way to solve immigration problems, just let the corporations buy up every last inch of land, roads, swamps and anything in between. Once they own it, they can dump whatever crap they want, toll Americans for trespassing anytime, and welcome bums from 3rd world countries. Who cares if it's bad for business? Who are we to tell them what they can't do?

Add this to eminent domain and the existing police state, Real ID, great recipe!

Ian, I understand your love for liberty not being limited to borders, but you and people who agree with you on this issue have done, *NOTHING , AND I MEAN LITERALLY NOTHING in preserving liberty and order in all other parts of our law, so having borders becomes the LAST chip Americans have before unfair competition and unwanted tyranny comes in, HAD YOU AND OTHERS who want open borders done something to get rid of all income taxes, trade laws, wage laws, bureaucratic hurdles, we'd have been BEGGING for more immigrants probably more than they'd want to come here, but the reality doesn't fit your ideal.*

And even Ron Paul recognizes this, that though immigrants are not to blame, it is a problem that needs to be addressed. 

Saying immigration is simply freedom of motility is saying drunk driving is the freedom to drink and freedom to drive. Freedom is easy to say.

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## Josh_LA

> Because communities are imagined....
> 
> 
> I'll give a little....
> 
> 
> transient at best.


Yes, so are morals, you have no problem with me murdering your family, right?

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## constituent

> Yes, so are morals, you have no problem with me murdering your family, right?


dumbest. post. ever.

that said, try if you'd like.  i have zero reservations about killing you first.

though something tells me you're liable to hesitate.

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## Josh_LA

> dumbest. post. ever.
> 
> that said, try if you'd like.  i have zero reservations about killing you first.
> 
> though something tells me you're liable to hesitate.


Excuse me? Dumbest post based on who's standards? Yours? Gods? Not community as we both know (according to you)

F- them all, unless you can defend that, you have nothing to say when somebody has a gun to your head, tell them it's wrong to kill.

So you've admitted, that you have zero reservations to kill first, be my guest.
(this is not a threat, it's pointing out YOU are the one who started this "it's imagined" stupidity)

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## constituent

> F- them all, unless you can defend that, you have nothing to say when somebody has a gun to your head, tell them it's wrong to kill.


and telling them it's immoral will somehow help the situation?




> So you've admitted, that you have zero reservations to kill first,


Yes that is correct, if you pose a threat to my family, i have zero reservations about neutralizing said threat.  


Are you a parent?





> (this is not a threat, it's pointing out YOU are the one who started this "it's imagined" stupidity)


Stupidity?  Precisely what is stupid about the FACT that communities are imagined entities?

Start a thread about it though, as this has little to do with the FSP.


But before you do that, thumb through this or don't bother wasting our time.

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## Josh_LA

> and telling them it's immoral will somehow help the situation?
> 
> Yes that is correct, if you pose a threat to my family, i have zero reservations about neutralizing said threat.  
> 
> Are you a parent?
> 
> Stupidity?  Precisely what is stupid about the FACT that communities are imagined entities?
> 
> Start a thread about it though, as this has little to do with the FSP.
> ...


Ok, so you admit saying that it's wrong is useless, the same goes with saying that communities and mobs are imaginary is USELESS. 

Precisely, saying that something is imagined when it's socially accepted and constructed is either ignorance or unreasonable denial, the same can be said that murder is OK since it's word against word.

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## constituent

> Ok, so you admit saying that it's wrong is useless, the same goes with saying that communities and mobs are imaginary is USELESS. 
> 
> Precisely, saying that something is imagined when it's socially accepted and constructed is either ignorance or unreasonable denial, the same can be said that murder is OK since it's word against word.


now you're just rambling.

read the book and start a thread, or don't.

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## Josh_LA

> as this has little to do with the FSP.
> 
> .


No, this has LOTS to do with FSP.

Unless you have a means of preserving your freedom community, you can't stop invaders or tyrants from taking over, openly or infiltrating.

What you just admitted is, that when it comes to arms and force, saying that communities are imagined is meaningless, the fact is they exist. You have nothing to say about the fact that communities DO make decisions that benefit all members from time to time. And yes, communities can work the other way around too. 

*You can argue what's good and bad about communities, but to say they are imagined is no different than saying murder is OK unless you have imagined morals against it.*

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## Josh_LA

> now you're just rambling.
> 
> read the book and start a thread, or don't.


Or you can leave me alone if you got nothing better to reply.

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## constituent

> *You can argue what's good and bad about communities, but to say they are imagined is no different than saying murder is OK unless you have imagined morals against it.*


"Morals" are imagined, so are "communities."

Srsly though, your entire argument (particularly trying to tie murder in w/ whether or not communities are imagined) is retarded, and i'm too worn out right now to care to discuss the issue w/ you any further.

----------


## FTL_Ian

> Yes, by your logic, hallways and roads should be private owned too, so stepping one inch out of your house should warrant charging you a toll, right?
> 
> So that's really an easy way to solve immigration problems, just let the corporations buy up every last inch of land, roads, swamps and anything in between. Once they own it, they can dump whatever crap they want, toll Americans for trespassing anytime, and welcome bums from 3rd world countries. Who cares if it's bad for business? Who are we to tell them what they can't do?


Yes, everything should be privately owned.  Even roads.  No, that doesn't mean you'd be tolled.  Does your grocery store charge you if you come in to use their bathroom?  You seem to be someone who doesn't think the market works.  You seem to think that if it weren't for people calling themselves government, that businessmen would be destroying communities.  Totally ludicrous.  The market provides the products and services we want at prices we're willing to pay, and it's not because of the state.

I think it's enough to point out that you have titled yourself a "genius".  Talk about being full of yourself.





> *NOTHING , AND I MEAN LITERALLY NOTHING in preserving liberty and order in all other parts of our law, so having borders becomes the LAST chip Americans have before unfair competition and unwanted tyranny comes in, HAD YOU AND OTHERS who want open borders done something to get rid of all income taxes, trade laws, wage laws, bureaucratic hurdles, we'd have been BEGGING for more immigrants probably more than they'd want to come here, but the reality doesn't fit your ideal.*


"Unfair competition" - so you are a protectionist, too?  Figures.  You clearly also know nothing about me.  I've been active my whole adult life, so you don't tell me what I haven't done.  Besides that, they aren't my laws.  I didn't write or consent to them.  Writing "laws" on paper doesn't do anything to preserve liberty.  Peaceful noncooperation does.




> Saying immigration is simply freedom of motility is saying drunk driving is the freedom to drink and freedom to drive. Freedom is easy to say.


Moving across imaginary lines doesn't harm anyone and neither does drinking and driving.  No victim, no crime.

Sounds like you could use more work understanding liberty.  It's all about allowing your neighbor to make his own choices, as long as he doesn't harm you or your property.  

If you refuse to allow your neighbors to be free, you will also never be free.

Hope you enjoy your conflicted life!  Please stay out of NH until you understand the art of allowing.

----------


## RevolutionSD

> Yes, everything should be privately owned.  Even roads.  No, that doesn't mean you'd be tolled.  Does your grocery store charge you if you come in to use their bathroom?  You seem to be someone who doesn't think the market works.  You seem to think that if it weren't for people calling themselves government, that businessmen would be destroying communities.  Totally ludicrous.  The market provides the products and services we want at prices we're willing to pay, and it's not because of the state.
> 
> I think it's enough to point out that you have titled yourself a "genius".  Talk about being full of yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Unfair competition" - so you are a protectionist, too?  Figures.  You clearly also know nothing about me.  I've been active my whole adult life, so you don't tell me what I haven't done.  Besides that, they aren't my laws.  I didn't write or consent to them.  Writing "laws" on paper doesn't do anything to preserve liberty.  Peaceful noncooperation does.
> 
> ...


Go Ian!
Statists are pretty tough to win over, eh?

----------


## Josh_LA

> "Unfair competition" - so you are a protectionist, too?  Figures.  You clearly also know nothing about me.  I've been active my whole adult life, so you don't tell me what I haven't done.  Besides that, they aren't my laws.  I didn't write or consent to them.  Writing "laws" on paper doesn't do anything to preserve liberty.  Peaceful noncooperation does.
> 
> Moving across imaginary lines doesn't harm anyone and neither does drinking and driving.  No victim, no crime.
> 
> Sounds like you could use more work understanding liberty.  It's all about allowing your neighbor to make his own choices, as long as he doesn't harm you or your property.  
> 
> If you refuse to allow your neighbors to be free, you will also never be free.
> 
> Hope you enjoy your conflicted life!  Please stay out of NH until you understand the art of allowing.


Yes, many grocery stores ask that you can only use their bathroom if you purchase something, and the law readily defends that.  No I don't believe businessmen all destroy communities. 

No I am not a protectionist, I am only one until because people who live here ARE FORCED to be protected, I'm all for getting rid of protections so we CAN have fair competition (which is basically just competition).

You've been active your whole life? Not enough that I've seen you anywhere in news stories, all I know is you've moved to NH, which I will applaud you for. You sit back and home saying you won't ever use force as a means to acheive liberty, *all I can say is GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.*  Imagine if our founding fathers took that as a virtue, not using force to achieve what we have today. 

*OK, LET'S SEE YOU CHALLENGE SOME LAWS, IF YOU'RE SO READY TO SAY IT.*
Let's see you challenge FCC by cussing on your radio show.
Let's see you drink and drive, let's see what you say when you're pulled over, tell the police they have no right to stop you (run them over since they're standing in your way of freedom)

Yes, I certainly CAN use some more work understanding liberty, and I am certainly open to being wrong. However, I live what I believe and I do everything in my power to act on it. 
*
I don't need you to remind me to stay out of NH, the first state who elected John McCain in primaries.*

_"Writing "laws" on paper doesn't do anything to preserve liberty.  Peaceful noncooperation does._
Or, peaceful cooperation can enforce, or reinforce orders that societies have held for a long time. Until I see you challenge some law, be willing to fight in court or go to prison, *YOU ARE THE ONE LIVING THE CONFLICTING LIFE.*  You're only willing to say you don't agree with laws but you abide by them anyway. I however, disagree with laws but recognize them as existing.

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## Josh_LA

> "Morals" are imagined, so are "communities."
> 
> Srsly though, your entire argument (particularly trying to tie murder in w/ whether or not communities are imagined) is retarded, and i'm too worn out right now to care to discuss the issue w/ you any further.


Retarded based on who's standards?

Who are you to say communities are imagined? Just because somebody wrote a book about it?

You can't tell me the difference between why morals are any more unimagined than communities. They both serve good and bad purposes and are only as good as people uphold them, so what's the difference?

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## jcarcinogen

I may go, but since most tech jobs are taken I'll have to think about the other jobs there.... wait what jobs are there? I'll be a janitor if I can make a difference. (just not bathrooms, I can vacuum)

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## Josh_LA

> Yes, everything should be privately owned.  Even roads.


*ALL I CAN SAY IS THIS:* 

Don't live a day to when it's legal for me to buy the road in front of your house. Because when I can afford to, I promise I will have guns in front of your house to shoot any person that walks out (all in the name of trespassing on private property, doesn't do me any good, but why not?). I promise I'll tear out the power lines and communication lines, you better be self sufficient like Ed Brown (just imagine how much easier it would be to ambush him if his surroundings were privately owned).

Oh yes, you're going to say, the minute you hear I buy the road you'll move out ? Just don't let anybody know where you live, because I promise I'll find somebody I know who will buy up the road in front of you, start racing with me to make sure you'll be richer than I am, so you can buy up more roads before I do. But you can't ever buy up the whole country, so you'll ALWAYS have a border.

----------


## mport1

Great answers from Ian like usual.

----------


## Josh_LA

> I may go, but since most tech jobs are taken I'll have to think about the other jobs there.... wait what jobs are there? I'll be a janitor if I can make a difference. (just not bathrooms, I can vacuum)


oh how sad, a state so free people still have to worry about jobs before they move there.

----------


## Josh_LA

> Great answers from Ian like usual.


talk is cheap, if you actually believe that laws don't apply to you, let's see you challenge some like Irwin Schiff or Ed Brown.

----------


## jcarcinogen

The license plates kick ass.

----------


## mport1

> talk is cheap, if you actually believe that laws don't apply to you, let's see you challenge some like Irwin Schiff or Ed Brown.


I don't particularly want to be killed at this point.  Unfortunately the people calling themselves government put us in a tough situation.  Standing up against them will lead men with guns to try to place us in a jail cell, and if we resist this, we will be murdered.

----------


## Josh_LA

> I don't particularly want to be killed at this point.  Unfortunately the people calling themselves government put us in a tough situation.  Standing up against them will lead men with guns to try to place us in a jail cell, and if we resist this, we will be murdered.


Ok, as long as you admit that.

That you hate the law but you're afraid of losing your life and until you can change that you might just have to live with the law, because might makes right.

That's all I was going after.

----------


## constituent

> They both serve good and bad purposes and are only as good as people uphold them, so what's the difference?


Yea, you're right dr. Seuss.  Morals and communities are the same thing

----------


## constituent

> talk is cheap


Says the guy on the internet.




> if you actually believe that laws don't apply to you, let's see you challenge some like Irwin Schiff or Ed Brown.


Ed Brown, lol.

----------


## FTL_Ian

> You've been active your whole life? Not enough that I've seen you anywhere in news stories, all I know is you've moved to NH, which I will applaud you for.


This is because political change is ineffective.  That said, my picture has been in the Sarasota Herald Tribune and the Keene Sentinel.  How many articles have been written about your efforts?




> *OK, LET'S SEE YOU CHALLENGE SOME LAWS, IF YOU'RE SO READY TO SAY IT.*


Way ahead of you: http://freekeene.com/2008/08/26/the-couch-enforcer/

See, people that move to NH are the doers, and the people who have excuses are just talkers.




> You're only willing to say you don't agree with laws but you abide by them anyway.


You're just talking out your ass, as I've clearly proven you are clueless about me, so you should stop now before more readers think you a braying fool.

----------


## porcupine

> talk is cheap, if you actually believe that laws don't apply to you, let's see you challenge some like Irwin Schiff or Ed Brown.


That logic is just like a robber with a gun to your head saying "if you really have a right to keep your money, let's see you fight me for it."

----------


## mport1

> That logic is just like a robber with a gun to your head saying "if you really have a right to keep your money, let's see you fight me for it."


Precisely.  It would be great if standing up to the government was relatively safe, but they are a violent gang so there are very large consequences.  They are clearly in the wrong and have no legitimate authority, but they have all the power behind them at this point.

----------


## Josh_LA

> Says the guy on the internet.
> 
> 
> 
> Ed Brown, lol.


Yes, says the guy on the internet, you're not one?

I'm just saying I don't talk what I don't practice, when I say I don't agree with a law, I at least admit I'm afraid to challenge it for fear of being arrested. How's you or Ian any better?

Whats to laugh about Ed Brown?

----------


## Josh_LA

> Precisely.  It would be great if standing up to the government was relatively safe, but they are a violent gang so there are very large consequences.  They are clearly in the wrong and have no legitimate authority, but they have all the power behind them at this point.


*Yes, precisely. So you're admitting the obvious, MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.*

Who cares about legitmate authority when your life is on the line?

----------


## Josh_LA

> This is because political change is ineffective.  That said, my picture has been in the Sarasota Herald Tribune and the Keene Sentinel.  How many articles have been written about your efforts?
> 
> 
> 
> Way ahead of you: http://freekeene.com/2008/08/26/the-couch-enforcer/
> 
> See, people that move to NH are the doers, and the people who have excuses are just talkers.
> 
> 
> ...


I don't care what readers think of me as, I am what I am, do I need somebody to validate my status?

Ok, so I apologize I haven't paid attention to your local news. But to answer your question, I will say I am sorry that articles and stories written about me & my efforts at State and national levels have not given me credit (nor will I claim it for fear of being arrested or harassed). Sure, you're going to say if I don't tell you, it doesn't exist, fine.

And I will admit that unless you did something that challenges what I mentioned : 
Tax laws like Ed Brown, drinking and driving, cussing on your show, something you can get arrested and imprisoned for, you're no better than people who do nothing, other than the fact you're willing to say it.

What makes me different from you? I don't challenge laws just because I disagree with it, I recognize they have power over me even though I hate it. I don't run my mouth saying I don't recognize the law without challenging it or breaking it. That's the difference, if that makes me a statist, have fun with your name calling.

----------


## Josh_LA

> Yea, you're right dr. Seuss.  Morals and communities are the same thing


if you're so smart, tell me the difference.

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

> I may go, but since most tech jobs are taken I'll have to think about the other jobs there.... wait what jobs are there? I'll be a janitor if I can make a difference. (just not bathrooms, I can vacuum)


There are always job openings, including tech and janitorial jobs. 

There are many people who will be glad to help you find a job if you post on the Free State Project forums. (http://forum.freestateproject.org/)

The Free State Project has moving guides, job guides among other things. Just look around the site to find them.

Here is a link to their job guide:
http://freestateproject.org/nhinfo/jobs

Here is a list of some online job listing websites for the Manchester area. 
-Snagajob.com
-http://nhjobs.com/index.cfm?option=and&keywords=Manchester
-http://jobsinnh.com/jobs_city/NH_New+Hampshire_Cities_Manchester.html
-http://nh.craigslist.org/search/jjj?query=manchester

Based on experience, and based on agreement I've had talking to other movers, I recommend moving to Manchester if you don't have a job lined up and stay at PorcCentral  while looking for one. Manchester has the most work opportunities, many within walking distance if you don't have a car, (and a large group of Free Staters that can help you, too.)

----------


## FTL_Ian

You know nothing about the laws I ignore, Josh.  Keep talking your trash; I don't own you any further explanation, as your ignorant claims have been successfully rebuffed.  The couch in the yard incident could have ended up in court, and with me in jail, but they haven't come back, because govt bullies are really just cowards.

FTL_Ian 1
CITY OF KEENE 0
Josh_LA 0

----------


## Josh_LA

> You know nothing about the laws I ignore, Josh.  Keep talking your trash; I don't own you any further explanation, as your ignorant claims have been successfully rebuffed.  The couch in the yard incident could have ended up in court, and with me in jail, but they haven't come back, because govt bullies are really just cowards.
> 
> FTL_Ian 1
> CITY OF KEENE 0
> Josh_LA 0


Keep keeping track of your score.

They didn't come because they are cowards, and it's not worth their time to come and put you in jail for something so minor. But you've not murdered anybody or drive drunk or refused to pay taxes, have you (not saying that I have, but let's see you challenge them).

*Let's see some more laws your ignore, I do want to learn from you (no, I am not being sarcastic, I seriously want to know how far you can get).*

----------


## Josh_LA

> You know nothing about the laws I ignore, Josh.


I know you're peacefully complying with FCC no cussing laws because you know the minute they shut down your affilliates you'll start losing business, which means the message of liberty can't get through to say the least.

Not saying it's bad to comply, but I'm just saying you're complying, show me when you violate, take care.

----------


## FTL_Ian

> Keep keeping track of your score.
> 
> They didn't come because they are cowards, and it's not worth their time to come and put you in jail for something so minor. But you've not murdered anybody or drive drunk or refused to pay taxes, have you (not saying that I have, but let's see you challenge them).
> 
> *Let's see some more laws your ignore, I do want to learn from you (no, I am not being sarcastic, I seriously want to know how far you can get).*


I do not aggress against my neighbors, so I would never consider your violent options.  Not paying taxes I already do at the federal level, so gotcha again.  We'll also be smoking marijuana in public coming soon.  Stay tuned to FreeKeene.com for the latest.

Also, they didn't make a move because they don't want to harm their legitimacy more than they already have.  Same reason they ignored Keene activists' illegal gambling and hot dog selling.

There's all kinds of govt laws being "broken" here.  You're just not paying attention, and when you do - you say breaking those laws doesn't qualify, then suggest aggressing against our neighbors.  You don't seem to understand the difference between natural law and government "law" (statutes).

I will not aggress against my neighbors, and nor will my friends.  

I hope most Ron Paul fans aren't like you.

----------


## constituent

> if you're so smart, tell me the difference.


Here, lemme make it really easy for you

morals

community

Picked up that book yet, or are you simply happy to remain an uninformed twit?

It's a shame that you need me to provide dictionary links to help you discern between morals and community, so I'm assuming your answer to be "happy to remain an uninformed twit."

----------


## Josh_LA

> Keep talking your trash; I don't own you any further explanation, as your ignorant claims have been successfully rebuffed.  The


I understand you're not going to waste any more time arguing.

And I also understand you don't challenge every law every minute just because you disagree with it, and that's my point. That it's easy to say what you don't recognize, but you can't argue with force when somebody has a gun to your head (even if what they did was completely illegal). So that's the point, keep talking and I'll see you on the news when you lose your life fighting for freedom (of course, you don't care what an idiot like me thinks about you).

I don't consider myself a statist, in fact, I consider myself an anarchist, that's why I've challenged pretty much everything people have said, whether they are pro-state, pro-market, pro-freedom or anything else. *HOWEVER*, I recognize that because people want to live peaceful and drama free lives, it's easier to comply and shut up sometimes. *Which brings me to the conclusion: you can't argue with a gun to your head, and might makes right, if it doesn't make right, it gets things done, sometimes the "things done" are too holy to be settled arguing right or wrong.*

----------


## Josh_LA

> It's a shame that you need me to provide dictionary links to help you discern between morals and community, so I'm assuming your answer to be "happy to remain an uninformed twit."



No, it's not a shame. Both definitions are only as good as people recognize them. So they are just as imaginary.

----------


## FTL_Ian

Don't be confused.  I explained myself for the readers, who are many.  Not you.

Keep backpedaling.

----------


## constituent

> No, it's not a shame. Both definitions are only as good as people recognize them. So they are just as imaginary.


Glad that you've come around to agree with me.

----------


## constituent

> Don't be confused.  I explained myself for the readers, who are many.  Not you.
> 
> Keep backpedaling.


meh, he's trollin'

the fsp can thank us later for keeping their thread bumped.

----------


## Josh_LA

> I do not aggress against my neighbors, so I would never consider your violent options.  Not paying taxes I already do at the federal level, so gotcha again.  We'll also be smoking marijuana in public coming soon.  Stay tuned to FreeKeene.com for the latest.
> 
> Also, they didn't make a move because they don't want to harm their legitimacy more than they already have.  Same reason they ignored Keene activists' illegal gambling and hot dog selling.
> 
> There's all kinds of govt laws being "broken" here.  You're just not paying attention, and when you do - you say breaking those laws doesn't qualify, then suggest aggressing against our neighbors.  You don't seem to understand the difference between natural law and government "law" (statutes).
> 
> I will not aggress against my neighbors, and nor will my friends.  
> 
> I hope most Ron Paul fans aren't like you.


You don't agress against your neighbors, good, but what's to stop you from it? What's to stop another person from it?

No, I will not say breaking laws don't count. I'm saying laws that are serious enough to get somebody arrested are what shows how far one is willing to go.

I will stay tuned on your blog, thanks.

I admire how you don't pay your federal taxes, but I can only assume you don't make enough to matter so they don't bother you. 

Let's move to the point, *YES, I INDEED DON'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN NATURAL LAWS AND GOVERNMENT LAWS.*  It's a matter of semantics, laws are only as good as people are willing to follow. And it's good that you don't agress against your neighbors, but what can you do when they initiate agression and you die just by not having enough force to protect yourself? I know, police will probably not make a difference, the point is, in the end,* IT COMES DOWN TO MIGHT.*

Yes, clearly Ron Paul fans are not like me. I'm like you in one way, I don't fit in any category.

----------


## Josh_LA

> Glad that you've come around to agree with me.


No, it's what I've said this whole time. 

Murder is OK, because morals are imaginary and it's no use saying morals exist if people don't uphold them.

----------


## LibertiORDeth

I am very sick of threads about the FSP.  They tried, didn't IMHO pick the right state and thus have failed.  I am in Washington, in which RP came in third with over 20% of the primary vote.  This (although also not a very good state) would be a much better bet.

----------


## Josh_LA

> I am very sick of threads about the FSP.  They tried, didn't IMHO pick the right state and thus have failed.  I am in Washington, in which RP came in third with over 20% of the primary vote.  This (although also not a very good state) would be a much better bet.


Freedom isn't free, there are many things you can do to get there. I don't think its fair to say they picked a wrong state, they did what they could do, and the fact of matter is, if we can educate people throughout the nation, the long term impact can be a lot better than FSP (and to be honest, Ron Paul campaign has been closest to it).

----------


## Josh_LA

> meh, he's trollin'
> 
> the fsp can thank us later for keeping their thread bumped.


Wow, so I've been called a troll, a nihilist and a statist in the same thread?!

----------


## FrankRep

> I am very sick of threads about the FSP.  They tried, didn't IMHO pick the right state and thus have failed.  I am in Washington, in which RP came in third with over 20% of the primary vote.  This (although also not a very good state) would be a much better bet.


How did they fail?

----------


## Josh_LA

> How did they fail?


Who's to say what you call fail or succeed?

They're still less than half of 20,000 people.

And people who have moved there obviously aren't complaining.

----------


## porcupine

> Who's to say what you call fail or succeed?
> 
> They're still less than half of 20,000 people.
> 
> And people who have moved there obviously aren't complaining.


You wouldn't get along with us anyway, Josh.  We're doers not debaters.

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

> I am very sick of threads about the FSP.  They tried, didn't IMHO pick the right state and thus have failed.  I am in Washington, in which RP came in third with over 20% of the primary vote.  This (although also not a very good state) would be a much better bet.


The concept of the Free State Project is the easier part in my opinion. Investing  the necessary time and energy to get a project like this off the ground is the hard part.  

Like other's have said here, I welcome all Free State Projects (FreeStateWyoming, FreeWestAlliance) but these have failed mainly because the founders of these projects wanted people to come to their state. There was no state vote like the FSP had. They also were not as motivated or serious about their project as the FSP is about. (Trivia: All the FSP leadership are from out-of-state.) 

The FSP could probably work in more states than NH, but NH was chosen and until a better more motivated project comes along, New Hampshire it will be.

I left Washington State to head to New Hampshire a week ago for these reasons and I'm glad I did. 

Personally, I didn't move here because I loved the state's climate. I didn't move here because I thought the project was going to get 20,000 members. I moved here because lots of other committed activists have and are moving here & I think we can help each other stay activists by giving each other support when we need it.

----------


## porcupine

The fact that Washington State gave 20% to Ron Paul and is such a statist place shows how bad of a metric that is.  I say that even though NH gave Ron Paul his 3rd best primary, I still don't think it's indicative of how free the state is because there are so many other factors (like how many candidates there were or who spent how much money).

New Hampshire is definitely one of America's freest states and its size makes it very amenable to activism.

----------


## Josh_LA

> You wouldn't get along with us anyway, Josh.  We're doers not debaters.


I probably won't, but whatever.

----------


## Josh_LA

> (like how many candidates there were or who spent how much money).


Indeed, but the fact is if a state can be chosen based on money, this state can be bought by any party. And I'm not saying that's bad, I'd rather know what a state CAN be predicted by.

----------


## porcupine

> Indeed, but the fact is if a state can be chosen based on money, this state can be bought by any party. And I'm not saying that's bad, I'd rather know what a state CAN be predicted by.


All the research, discussion and voting that went into choosing New Hampshire as the free state are archived on our website.  That will cover the scores of predictors that were used.

----------


## Josh_LA

> All the research, discussion and voting that went into choosing New Hampshire as the free state are archived on our website.  That will cover the scores of predictors that were used.


Sorry, I think we're talking about a different point.

I have no criticism for the FSP, I think it's good people are starting somewhere.

I was trying to say that the fact John McCain & others won more votes than Ron Paul (legit or not) means that the whole of NH voters might not be as freedom loving as many think. But there's nothing wrong with that, and NH is much freer than most other states in other respects. 

Indeed, it's not fair to judge how free a state is based on election results.

----------


## FTL_Ian

Moving as part of the FSP is not a "sacrifice".  Sure, it costs money, but it's an investment in the future of liberty, not a sacrifice.

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

> Moving as part of the FSP is not a "sacrifice".  Sure, it costs money, but it's an investment in the future of liberty, not a sacrifice.


I agree. Thanks for correcting me.

----------


## porcupine

> Moving as part of the FSP is not a "sacrifice".  Sure, it costs money, but it's an investment in the future of liberty, not a sacrifice.


I thought it was a sacrifice until I actually got here and realized what I was missing.

----------


## newyearsrevolution08

sounds like a ton of fun, why can't we have a fsp in ALL states though? Take one city at a time, get our people into all local positions and expand from all corners of the states?

----------


## FTL_Ian

> sounds like a ton of fun, why can't we have a fsp in ALL states though? Take one city at a time, get our people into all local positions and expand from all corners of the states?


Try it and you'll figure out why it doesn't work.

----------


## newyearsrevolution08

> Try it and you'll figure out why it doesn't work.


um can't I just ask the question and get an answer as to why it doesn't work instead of wasting my time on what I assume you are trying to say is a worthless effort....

kind of a pointless answer don't you think...


Hey why is it bad to drink poison - asks the kid

try it first and then you will find out why - says the adult full well knowing it killed others who TRIED it.

----------


## porcupine

> sounds like a ton of fun, why can't we have a fsp in ALL states though? Take one city at a time, get our people into all local positions and expand from all corners of the states?


Ummm...we do.  It's called the libertarian party.  The FSP is about CONCENTRATING liberty activism in one place....by definition, you can't do that in every state, or else you get exactly what you have now, which is failure.


Go and read about the idea of the FSP and what the FSP is.  You'll then see that the answer to your question is glaringly obvious.

*edit*

Why do people keep saying this?  It seems half the people spouting off about the FSP have no clue what it even is.

----------


## FTL_Ian

> um can't I just ask the question and get an answer as to why it doesn't work instead of wasting my time on what I assume you are trying to say is a worthless effort....
> 
> kind of a pointless answer don't you think...
> 
> 
> Hey why is it bad to drink poison - asks the kid
> 
> try it first and then you will find out why - says the adult full well knowing it killed others who TRIED it.


Sorry, I thought you were trolling as it seems the question was answered earlier in the thread.

One of the reasons the Free State Project exists is because "getting together" in your local area is precisely what has failed over the past few decades.  Most people in your area even if they are interested in liberty are just not doers.  They want other people to do the work for them.  The doers are few and far between so the Free State Project is concentrating the doers in one geographical area.

Do you want to be where the doers are, or where everyone else is?

----------


## Josh_LA

> um can't I just ask the question and get an answer as to why it doesn't work instead of wasting my time on what I assume you are trying to say is a worthless effort....
> 
> kind of a pointless answer don't you think...
> 
> 
> Hey why is it bad to drink poison - asks the kid
> 
> try it first and then you will find out why - says the adult full well knowing it killed others who TRIED it.


No, just try it. Maybe you can prove him wrong, why not? It's good to believe in something!

----------


## porcupine

I thought this video was worth watching: *Can 20K make a difference ?*

----------


## newyearsrevolution08

> Sorry, I thought you were trolling as it seems the question was answered earlier in the thread.
> 
> One of the reasons the Free State Project exists is because "getting together" in your local area is precisely what has failed over the past few decades.  Most people in your area even if they are interested in liberty are just not doers.  They want other people to do the work for them.  The doers are few and far between so the Free State Project is concentrating the doers in one geographical area.
> 
> Do you want to be where the doers are, or where everyone else is?


Yes I built up a few thousand posts in hopes of trolling a fsp thread, you foiled our plan, damn you lol....



I will check it out but I can see what MASS unity can do indeed. I see the point in putting all of those serious enough together so real action can happen.

----------


## conqst3

I spent a few years traveling the country to find a place to live with more freedom, and less taxes. New Hampshire ended up being my first choice. While doing more research on New Hampshire, I found out about the FSP. It was through the FSP that I found Ron Paul, which got me involved in politics, something I had no interest in what so ever. It was through the Revolution, that I found out I was not alone. But now that the primaries are over I feel alone once again. The only hope I see is moving to New Hampshire.
If you have any doubts, go to porcfest, The best way I can descibe it...... it's like going in a time machine, and sitting under the liberty tree. 
It beats sitting in your current place bitching about things through your computer. What other option is there? 
   People are dumb, all they care about is American idol, your not going to change that, your in the minority and looked at as a nutjob. In New hampshire, you can be around like minded people who are actually doing something and making a difference.
   If you go to the FSP forum, it seems dead, but if you look into the FSP more, it's hard too keep up with all that's going on at a state, and local level. They're really inspiring people to be around.  I visit these forums daily, but that's not going to get me more freedom. Moving to NH is the only option I see. 
   No Revolution is going to be won without the support of a state, and NH could be an easy win if people get away from their computers, and do something. The soap box stoped working years ago. It's Time to move to the ballot box.

----------


## rayzer

> If only a small portion of Ron Paul supporters signed up we could get this done.  Wouldn't you want to move if 20,000 other liberty activists were going to be there?  Sadly it is looking like the federal government is beyond repair and I think concentrating our efforts in one state would have a much higher chance of success.
> 
> 
> http://www.freestateproject.org


This is a REALLY good question!

----------


## porcupine

> i spent a few years traveling the country to find a place to live with more freedom, and less taxes. New hampshire ended up being my first choice. While doing more research on new hampshire, i found out about the fsp. It was through the fsp that i found ron paul, which got me involved in politics, something i had no interest in what so ever. It was through the revolution, that i found out i was not alone. But now that the primaries are over i feel alone once again. The only hope i see is moving to new hampshire.
> If you have any doubts, go to porcfest, the best way i can descibe it...... It's like going in a time machine, and sitting under the liberty tree. 
> It beats sitting in your current place bitching about things through your computer. What other option is there? 
>    People are dumb, all they care about is american idol, your not going to change that, your in the minority and looked at as a nutjob. In new hampshire, you can be around like minded people who are actually doing something and making a difference.
>    If you go to the fsp forum, it seems dead, but if you look into the fsp more, it's hard too keep up with all that's going on at a state, and local level. They're really inspiring people to be around.  I visit these forums daily, but that's not going to get me more freedom. Moving to nh is the only option i see. 
>    No revolution is going to be won without the support of a state, and nh could be an easy win if people get away from their computers, and do something. The soap box stoped working years ago. It's time to move to the ballot box.


qft

----------


## porcupine

The next generation of the r3VOLution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF2rJnnoYiE

----------


## OferNave

> The next generation of the r3VOLution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF2rJnnoYiE


You know, I'm thinking it might finally be time for desperate measures.  I'm thinking we start a charity fund that FSP men can contribute to that helps subsidize women who need help making the move.

This sausage fest has to end.

PS-Don't take it personally, guys, happy to have you here as well.  Especially considering the average caliber of person we've had so far.

----------


## FTL_Ian

Your sentiment is appreciated, but do we want to attract the type of person who needs a subsidy to pick up their life?

----------


## porcupine

> Your sentiment is appreciated, but do we want to attract the type of person who needs a subsidy to pick up their life?


I don't.

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

Here are some worthwhile articles to read on the Free State Project.

Anti-State.com : Why I Endorse the Free State Project, by James S.
http://www.anti-state.com/article.php?article_id=120

Anti-Statists and the Free State, by John Robinson
http://www.anti-state.com/article.php?article_id=57

----------


## TGautier421

Sorry, I was born and raised in Kansas and I love my State too much to leave. I'll just wait for the FSP ideals to catch on and I'll do my best to support them here. Hell, I already do that.

----------


## Josh_LA

> Sorry, I was born and raised in Kansas and I love my State too much to leave. I'll just wait for the FSP ideals to catch on and I'll do my best to support them here. Hell, I already do that.


Yeah, just like matching donations, I won't jump in unless others do first.

----------


## constituent

> Your sentiment is appreciated, but do we want to attract the type of person who needs a subsidy to pick up their life?


lol, what _type_ of person might that be?

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

> Sorry, I was born and raised in Kansas and I love my State too much to leave. I'll just wait for the FSP ideals to catch on and I'll do my best to support them here. Hell, I already do that.


1) You can sign up as a friend of the FSP and get occasional emails and a monthly newsletter keeping you up to date on what's going on. 

2) You can also sign up as a participant with your own triggers for moving. (One example is if REAL ID is passed in your state and not in NH.) If your trigger is not met, you are not committed to moving.

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

> lol, what _type_ of person might that be?


I assume Ian means someone who does not value personal initiative over dependence on others. 

Free-riders, in other words. (See part '1.2': "The free-rider problem appears when some members of the community find that they can reap the benefits of the project without contributing their share.")

I have found the FSP community very generous to those who need help if the person in question shows some type of individual initiative to begin with.

----------


## speciallyblend

location location location,  Colorado

----------


## porcupine

> location location location,  Colorado


Ok.  Start a Colorado Free State movement and keep me updated on its success. 

Allow  me to take a wild shot in the dark as to what state you are currently living in:  Is it, oh I don't know...Colorada?  That couldn't be why you say that's where everyone _else_ should move is it?  Because it would be the easiest for you?

We're not a bunch of New Hampshire people who want people to move to where we are.  We're people who are moving to New Hampshire ourselves because we believe in the project.  That's the difference between us doers and the talkers else saying "hey let's start a FSP where I live."

----------


## porcupine

> Sorry, I was born and raised in Kansas and I love my State too much to leave. I'll just wait for the FSP ideals to catch on and I'll do my best to support them here. Hell, I already do that.


If I thought Free State ideals would be catching on elsewhere, I wouldn't have uprooted my life to move to New Hampshire.  This country is moving in the opposite direction of freedom so I wouldn't count on it.  

Sign up as a friend of the FSP though and keep updated on what's going on.

----------


## jcarcinogen

Long thread, so I apologize if its already been said... the relatively low population of NH makes it easier to have a political influence. It is true that there are other states like NV, MT, AK, etc with streaks but I am really considering making the move.

----------


## porcupine

> Long thread, so I apologize if its already been said... the relatively low population of NH makes it easier to have a political influence. It is true that there are other states like NV, MT, AK, etc with streaks but I am really considering making the move.


That was one of the many factors considered in the "great state debate" of 2003 leading up to the state-selection vote, all archived on our website.

----------


## porcupine

nvm

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

Will Buchanan is walking from Oregon to New Hampshire "to achieve more freedom and liberty."
 He is calling it the walk for liberty. You can keep up to date by watching his video blog at blog.walkforliberty.com


Here is his most recent video:--

Walk For Liberty Day 145 - A Day In The Life Of The Walk For Liberty
http://willbuchanan.com/blog/2008/10...k-for-liberty/

----------


## dr. hfn

because i'm a poor college student in pa, but i will move there....and we will secede

----------


## porcupine

> because i'm a poor college student in pa, but i will move there....and we will secede


Glad to hear it.  I wish all these people talking tough about how we need a revolution would get off their butt and make a tiny sacrifice...if they're as willing to make the ultimate sacrifice as they so claim.

----------


## Flash

Secession should be the ultimate goal. Hopefully an independent New Hampshire will inspire other states to decide their own future.

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

> Secession should be the ultimate goal. Hopefully an independent New Hampshire will inspire other states to decide their own future.



"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."-James Dean



If you think it's a good idea, you should move to NH swiftly!


There is plenty of FSPers willing to help out with your move & getting settled in. 

Housing, temporarily or long term, can be got cheaply by renting in a Porc Manor. 
And a lot of FSPers can help you network to find jobs. 
Your move benefits earlier FSP movers, so it's good all around.

----------


## mport1

With the coming demise of our economic system, picking up your belongings and moving to NH for liberty should be looking more appealing every day.

----------


## porcupine

> With the coming demise of our economic system, picking up your belongings and moving to NH for liberty should be looking more appealing every day.


When this economy comes crashing down, certain states are going to become absolute tyrannies and others may become more free.  I think if we get enough people in NH, we can make NH more free.  Especially if the federal government's grip is loosed when their dollar fails.

----------


## Truth Warrior

When *A* free state is achieved, I may start to pay some more attention to them.

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

> With the coming demise of our economic system, picking up your belongings and moving to NH for liberty should be looking more appealing every day.


When are you moving to NH? 




> When *A* free state is achieved, I may start to pay some more attention to them.


And that's when the need for the FSP model of concentrated activism won't be urgently needed anymore.

----------


## mport1

> When are you moving to NH?


My plan as of now is to hopefully make a lot of money on wall street to be able to donate to liberty causes and then move to NH.  I feel that would be a better use of my resources than in-state activism.  However if we reach the 20,000 mark or a lot more Free Staters moved there, I would move immediately.

----------


## mport1

Good video by Free Stater Dave Ridley marking the 5th anniversary of the Free State Project.  Details some of the movement's successes, Ron Paul makes an appearance - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paE3XtR0_XE

----------


## Truth Warrior

> And that's when the need for the FSP model of concentrated activism won't be urgently needed anymore.


 * That works for me.*

----------


## mport1

Hopefully all of you will realize as the election results roll in tonight that politics, especially on a national, level is futile.  Any political success will only happen at the state level if we all move to a low populated state.  Please sign up for the Free State Project so we can reach 20,000 and actually achieve liberty in our lifetimes.

----------


## gls

I hope the state and local Republicans held out OK. They got crushed in 2006 Democratic tidal wave.

----------


## mport1

> I hope the state and local Republicans held out OK. They got crushed in 2006 Democratic tidal wave.


Why does that matter?  They are for big government as well.

----------


## muzzled dogg

free state voted in jeanne shaheanne

----------


## dr. hfn

we need to reach the 20,000 goal so we can use New Hampshire as a launch pad for the 2012 Liberty Ticket!!!

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

NH has retains some of the most freedoms in America, but like everywhere, those liberties are quickly eroding. The FSP is about concentrating liberty lovers to get things done.

NH is not free, it is freer than elsewhere. The FSP has had many successes with only a few hundred movers. I think it's a good activist liberty community to be a part of and live close to.

----------


## H Roark

After this election, FSP is looking more and more appealing...

----------


## mport1

> After this election, FSP is looking more and more appealing...


Yes, hopefully people will not continue down the losing path we have been on for decades.  We must take a new direction.  The FSP is really our only hope right now.

----------


## gls

> Why does that matter?  They are for big government as well.


I'm under the impression that most of the NH GOP is relatively libertarian-leaning, and that is the vehicle many free starters are choosing to advance our agenda.

The size of the state government has expanded considerably since democrats gained the majority. Once Liberty is lost it is gone forever.

I suppose a strict voluntaryist wouldn't think it matters but non-cooperation won't stop an income or sales tax.

----------


## mport1

> I suppose a strict voluntaryist wouldn't think it matters but non-cooperation won't stop an income or sales tax.


It will if enough people stand up for their freedoms.

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

> It will if enough people stand up for their freedoms.


Or sit down, as Rosa Parks did, and which now Free Stater and host of Free talk Live Ian Freeman did today getting him thrown in jail.

----------


## Jeremy

> Or sit down, as Rosa Parks did, and which now Free Stater and host of Free talk Live Ian Freeman did today getting him thrown in jail.


no, you don't know what happened.  he was told to sit... other way around watch the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlcT-3niVes

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

> no, you don't know what happened.  he was told to sit... other way around watch the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlcT-3niVes


Oh, thanks for the correction. But I do know _everyone else_ watching the trial was threatened to be handcuffed if they didn't stand when the judge entered.

----------


## Jeremy

> Oh, thanks for the correction. But I do know _everyone else_ watching the trial was threatened to be handcuffed if they didn't stand when the judge entered.


ya, i heard that too =o

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

> ya, i heard that too =o


Arrg, crazy happenings. 


@ Everyone -- might be a good time to sign up for Porc 411 calls if you haven't already. (http://mail.ioerror.us/mailman/listinfo/porcupine-411)

Anyone can use it to report their own emergencies as well.   


Edit: Porc 411 was used to report Ian's arrest and is a great tool which is why I am advertising it here.

----------


## mport1

> Oh, thanks for the correction. But I do know _everyone else_ watching the trial was threatened to be handcuffed if they didn't stand when the judge entered.


Yep, it is tyranny.  Luckily we have brave men like Ian standing up for our freedoms.  If we can get enough people like him to New Hampshire, we will stand a chance at success.

----------


## mport1

Remember, signing up doesn't mean you commit to move until AFTER 20,000 people is reached.  Once again, even if you would not make the move now, would you not make the move if 20,000 liberty activists were all going to do it?

----------


## Pennsylvania

I won't derail someone else's thread but I would just like to say that I am 100% convinced that the FSP is accomplishing, and will continue to accomplish more than organizations like the CFL and that I would strongly urge people to concentrate their efforts and resources in the FSP. I really don't know what is so inspiring about the CFL other than that RP started it, yet I continue to see threads started over and over about it. IMO, the FSP provides participants with a much more tangible and specific method of achieving their goals, by geographically consolidating our efforts. 

Just my 2 pre-1982 cents

----------


## WRellim

*I presume FSP want people who are SERIOUS about it, not just those who join to boost the numbers.
*
I haven't signed up for it because it would be LIE -- as I have absolutely no intentions of moving to New Hampshire, whether they reach the number or not in the main because all of my family live near me now... and family is important. (And I have no intention of EVER submitting to a TSA "grope" -- certainly not every single time I want to visit family around the holidays -- my NOT flying is my own form of protest... if everyone followed suit, even for a just a single month or two... TSA would be gone!)

In the future... once I am at the equivalent of Gary North's "top layer of the cake" I may change my mind. On the other hand, that is years (probably decades) away, and if FSP doesn't have sufficient numbers by then, the whole thing will be a flop.

----------


## Pennsylvania

> *I presume FSP want people who are SERIOUS about it, not just those who join to boost the numbers.
> *
> I haven't signed up for it because it would be LIE -- as I have absolutely no intentions of moving to New Hampshire, whether they reach the number or not in the main because all of my family live near me now... and family is important. (And I have no intention of EVER submitting to a TSA "grope" -- certainly not every single time I want to visit family around the holidays -- my NOT flying is my own form of protest... if everyone followed suit, even for a just a single month or two... TSA would be gone!)
> 
> In the future... once I am at the equivalent of Gary North's "top layer of the cake" I may change my mind. On the other hand, that is years (probably decades) away, and if FSP doesn't have sufficient numbers by then, the whole thing will be a flop.


They want people to sign who are serious about moving, yes, but that does not mean others cannot support the project.  I'm talking about little stuff too. Buy the FSP bumper sticker instead of the CFL one and such.

----------


## bojo68

<<<does NOT LIKE the northeast. Many of the people that built the west left there, for good reason, over 100 years ago. Unfortunately, they brought some northeast ideas with them, which are STILL screwing things up out here.
   Never been to NE, don't want to EVER go.















S

----------


## mport1

> I won't derail someone else's thread but I would just like to say that I am 100% convinced that the FSP is accomplishing, and will continue to accomplish more than organizations like the CFL and that I would strongly urge people to concentrate their efforts and resources in the FSP. I really don't know what is so inspiring about the CFL other than that RP started it, yet I continue to see threads started over and over about it. IMO, the FSP provides participants with a much more tangible and specific method of achieving their goals, by geographically consolidating our efforts. 
> 
> Just my 2 pre-1982 cents


I completely agree.  The CFL seems to be doing practically nothing and is being run by many of the same people that ran the largely incompetent Ron Paul campaign.  Additionally, gaining our liberty back by concentrating our efforts at the national level as well as spreading ourselves thin throughout the entire country has very little chance of success.  

The FSP is light years ahead of the CFL in actually getting things accomplished and that is with just a few hundred people who have moved.  I just hope people realize this before they dump too much of their time and money into the CFL with little chance of creating change.  Time is of the essence and we need to be concentrating our activities on something that actually has some chance of success.

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

> <<<does NOT LIKE the northeast. Many of the people that built the west left there, for good reason, over 100 years ago. Unfortunately, they brought some northeast ideas with them, which are STILL screwing things up out here.
>    Never been to NE, don't want to EVER go.


Come out for PorcFest next year. I am from the west coast and I love New Hampshire, it is the Washington State of the east coast, but with more freedom--personal and economic.

----------


## mport1

> Come out for PorcFest next year. I am from the west coast and I love New Hampshire, it is the Washington State of the east coast, but with more freedom--personal and economic.


There is also the Liberty Forum coming up in March.

----------


## mport1

The FSP now has almost half of the sign ups necessary.  Please sign up now so we can pick up the place and get to 20,000.  It should be more and more evident as time passes that the federal system is too far gone and we have almost no chance at rescuing it.  Lets concentrate our activism so we can achieve liberty in our lifetime.

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

Update:*666 movers.*

----------


## Truth Warrior

*Just WAAAY too busy with the State Free Project.*

----------


## user

> *Just WAAAY too busy with the State Free Project.*


I have to admit that's a good one.

----------


## mport1

> *Just WAAAY too busy with the State Free Project.*


Many people who are signed up or have moved for the FSP are for statelessness.  I am  

The FSP mission statement says "the _MAXIMUM_ role of government is the protection of life, liberty, and property."  I, along with many others, would prefer to do away with the government completely.

----------


## RevolutionSD

> Many people who are signed up or have moved for the FSP are for statelessness.  I am  
> 
> The FSP mission statement says "the _MAXIMUM_ role of government is the protection of life, liberty, and property."  I, along with many others, would prefer to do away with the government completely.


The trouble is the conflict that most people in the liberty movement can't see.
The minarchists are working within the system for smaller government. But by doing that they are actually conceding that we do NEED government of some kind. The problem is that government by nature always grows. So if the minarchists were successful at let's say getting a few libertarians in office, they are still working against the true freedom advocates- the anarchists.

As long as we have this conflict of opposing forces within the freedom movement, it will not succeed.

----------


## mport1

> The trouble is the conflict that most people in the liberty movement can't see.
> The minarchists are working within the system for smaller government. But by doing that they are actually conceding that we do NEED government of some kind. The problem is that government by nature always grows. So if the minarchists were successful at let's say getting a few libertarians in office, they are still working against the true freedom advocates- the anarchists.
> 
> As long as we have this conflict of opposing forces within the freedom movement, it will not succeed.


I disagree.  I think that trying to shrink government and getting some minarchists into power would result in a much better situation than right now and hopefully pave the way for true freedom.  However, I think civil disobedience, non-compliance, and market activism would be a much better route to freedom.

Also, without the minarchists getting the wheels turning in people's heads there would be practically no anarchists.  I know I wouldn't be for complete freedom if I wasn't first exposed to what seemed like a much less radical philosophy.  It seems like the overwhelming majority of anarchists have followed this path.

----------


## Truth Warrior

> Many people who are signed up or have moved for the FSP are for statelessness. I am  
> 
> The FSP mission statement says "the _MAXIMUM_ role of government is the protection of life, liberty, and property." I, along with many others, would prefer to do away with the government completely.


 *Government is in the CRIME business, the "protection RACKET" is just a very small part of that business.<IMHO>*

*"Taking the State wherever found, striking into its history at any point, one sees no way to differentiate the activities of its founders, administrators, and beneficiaries from those of a professional-criminal class." ~ Albert Jay Nock, Our Enemy, The State*

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

IMHO the FSP is a tool.  The name is irrelevant to what the vast majority of us are doing here (almost all activists are anarchists, even those working within the political system). The FSP is just a bus to move here. The name is totally irrelevant.

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

> I disagree.  I think that trying to shrink government and getting some minarchists into power would result in a much better situation than right now and hopefully pave the way for true freedom.  However, I think civil disobedience, non-compliance, and market activism would be a much better route to freedom.
> 
> Also, without the minarchists getting the wheels turning in people's heads there would be practically no anarchists.  I know I wouldn't be for complete freedom if I wasn't first exposed to what seemed like a much less radical philosophy.  It seems like the overwhelming majority of anarchists have followed this path.


You should watch episodes of The Prisoner with us here in Winchester, NH on Wednesdays. Last episode we watched there was an election, a man got into office, he tried to tell everyone they were free and shut down the state apparatus. No one understood him because they forgot what freedom was. Also, the body guards of the state apparatus turned on the elected leader who tried to give people freedom. 
You wouldn't seek CEO status of General Motors and then close it down because they were committed mass injustices, you would compete with them (agorism), stage boycotts and civil disobedience, also use Jury Nullification and their Corporate bylaws (allegory to the Constitution) against them to close them down and make your competing businesses (agora, the counter-economy) successful.
Politics has an attractive appeal, but the appeal is deceptive for any large, worthy changes.

----------


## RevolutionSD

> You should watch episodes of The Prisoner with us here in Winchester, NH on Wednesdays. Last episode we watched there was an election, a man got into office, he tried to tell everyone they were free and shut down the state apparatus. No one understood him because they forgot what freedom was. Also, the body guards of the state apparatus turned on the elected leader who tried to give people freedom. 
> You wouldn't seek CEO status of General Motors and then close it down because they were committed mass injustices, you would compete with them (agorism), stage boycotts and civil disobedience, also use Jury Nullification and their Corporate bylaws (allegory to the Constitution) against them to close them down and make your competing businesses (agora, the counter-economy) successful.
> Politics has an attractive appeal, but the appeal is deceptive for any large, worthy changes.


Great post and this is my point.

You CANNOT turn the mafia around, and you cannot turn an inherently violent organization like government around.

Even IF you could achieve the dream of a state with small gov't, it would quickly turn back into what we have today- because people would demand it, and politicians would immediately go back to promising the world to get elected.

We need to eliminate the very IDEA that we need government, otherwise, we're just doing what libertarians have done for hundreds of years- spin wheels trying to do the impossible, to reform a criminal organization.

----------


## powerofreason

I turned 18 about a month ago and joined the FSP. New Hampshire is the place to be if you love freedom and want more of it.

----------


## OferNave

385th post!

----------


## UtahApocalypse

Been thinking all day on how to answer this. I don't want to go off on a major tangent, or sound like an attack. My answer in simplistic terms comes down to the primary. Let me try to expand though on that and explain. 

It was not so much the fact that Ron Paul did not do well in New Hampshire. He did not do that great anywhere sadly. What made the NH loss so difficult was the hype beforehand. Everyone from the FSP was clamoring about the "Victory" they were going to have. They had spoke of the tons of support, and progress they were making in getting the vote. 

Along came the primary and there was completely nothing even close to what had been announced. Ron Paul did just as bad as anywhere else. 

So how does this affect a decision not to participate in the FSP? Easily, they have been all hype before. Until I see some true progress then its will by all hyp again as far as im concerned.

----------


## mport1

> Been thinking all day on how to answer this. I don't want to go off on a major tangent, or sound like an attack. My answer in simplistic terms comes down to the primary. Let me try to expand though on that and explain. 
> 
> It was not so much the fact that Ron Paul did not do well in New Hampshire. He did not do that great anywhere sadly. What made the NH loss so difficult was the hype beforehand. Everyone from the FSP was clamoring about the "Victory" they were going to have. They had spoke of the tons of support, and progress they were making in getting the vote. 
> 
> Along came the primary and there was completely nothing even close to what had been announced. Ron Paul did just as bad as anywhere else. 
> 
> So how does this affect a decision not to participate in the FSP? Easily, they have been all hype before. Until I see some true progress then its will by all hyp again as far as im concerned.


There are currently only 666 people who are Free State Project members in New Hampshire.  You can't expect him to do that well when the project hasn't even really gotten started.  The point of the FSP is to move *20,000* liberty lovers to the area once that many sign up (or _over 30 times_ the number who have moved so far).  There was very optimistic talk about New Hampshire like other places but as we were shown again and again, the numbers didn't play out in reality.  Additionally, there were some factors against him like that he didn't campaign much there, it was early in the primaries and not many people knew about him, there were a number of candidates still in the race diluting the votes for him, etc.

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

> Been thinking all day on how to answer this. I don't want to go off on a major tangent, or sound like an attack. My answer in simplistic terms comes down to the primary. Let me try to expand though on that and explain. 
> 
> It was not so much the fact that Ron Paul did not do well in New Hampshire. He did not do that great anywhere sadly. What made the NH loss so difficult was the hype beforehand. Everyone from the FSP was clamoring about the "Victory" they were going to have. They had spoke of the tons of support, and progress they were making in getting the vote. 
> 
> Along came the primary and there was completely nothing even close to what had been announced. Ron Paul did just as bad as anywhere else. 
> 
> So how does this affect a decision not to participate in the FSP? Easily, they have been all hype before. Until I see some true progress then its will by all hyp again as far as im concerned.


As an early mover, I don't think the Free State Project is hyped (not during my time with the Free State Project community anyway. I wasn't a FSPer during the Ron Paul campaign in NH). Most are not convinced until they actually get a whiff of the air of New Hampshire and meet a few of us, makes quite a lot of sense. That's why PorcFest and the Liberty Forum are advertised as much as they are: they are the prime motivator for people to move to New Hampshire.

The Free State Project is looking for 20,000 pledged movers. _If 20,000 is not reached, you are not committed to anything_ (Edit: even more, you can personally choose the specific, individual triggers for a move.)  If 20,000 is reached, there would be great reason to stay committed to the previous pledge and make the move, seeing as 19,999 others would be joining you. This would give New Hampshire the highest concentration of libertarians in the world, and probably encourage many more to move. So I would recommend that if you are reasonably interested and and a lover of liberty, go ahead and sign up!

----------


## mport1

On a side note it is good to see that the FSP is now advertising on these boards.  Hopefully that will lead to some extra sign ups.

----------


## studebaker

Wow almost 400 posts!
First a comical comment and not picking on anyone ...  but posting on a libertarian forum about  "I'll move to NH if I'm promised a ...... (fill in what you what someone else to give you)?  Made me smile.

 I have met people who moved to NH  ... singles, couples, families and those that gone on ahead of their families to establish a new place for them to come to and there is not a single mover that I know of (update me on someone I missed) that is not providing for themselves.   It can be done, the infrastructure is here, come to PorcFest 2009 http://www.porcfest.com and do some networking.  I have been trying to make my move for 2-3 years just from CT so I know the issues involved from moving from a town where four generations of my family have settled.   I have set a date of Nov. 2009 to have my new home in Grafton, NH  http://www.townofgrafton.com/

Over 35 years I've heard the "talk" about living free ... this is the first time I have met people willing to stand together in the attempt of that goal and I am going there to do my part in supporting them and the goal and hopefully laying the foundation for others to build on.

For those that can't make it right now, try to later.  Those with children, educate them on what we are doing in NH so when the time come that they need to "find the own place" we will be here laying the ground work because we believe in the FSP Statement of Intent  concept http://www.freestateproject.org/soi and will work in or own ways for personal Liberties and Freedoms.   

In the mean time I would ask members here that believe in the idea to at least help us to advertise the FSP, ask for pamphlets, bumper stickers ... ask friends and other forum members to advertise the FSP.
Spread the word, yes it may take decades but I for one will be on the front lines.  I decided I will no longer be one that talks of Liberty yet "expects someone else to provide it to me at their expense".

----------


## FSP-Rebel

What studebaker said... I just moved this last Sunday and I've already got active with open carrying and calling my reps/senators to have them keep the seatbelt bill tabled permanently. Progress is being made and we have at least 6 participants that have been elected to the state house and many more that have been elected to local offices. Does any other state have anything close to this many libertarians elected to this many positions? More will come in 2010. Get here soon and you can be a part of it. If not, donate to pro-liberty NH candidates @ http://www.nhliberty.org/donate. Or join us @ http://freestateproject.org, we'd love to have you and your families.

----------


## Bruno

> Wow almost 400 posts!
> First a comical comment and not picking on anyone ...  but posting on a libertarian forum about  "I'll move to NH if I'm promised a ...... (fill in what you what someone else to give you)?  Made me smile.
> 
>  I have met people who moved to NH  ... singles, couples, families and those that gone on ahead of their families to establish a new place for them to come to and there is not a single mover that I know of (update me on someone I missed) that is not providing for themselves.   It can be done, the infrastructure is here, come to PorcFest 2009 http://www.porcfest.com and do some networking.  I have been trying to make my move for 2-3 years just from CT so I know the issues involved from moving from a town where four generations of my family have settled.   I have set a date of Nov. 2009 to have my new home in Grafton, NH  http://www.townofgrafton.com/
> 
> Over 35 years I've heard the "talk" about living free ... this is the first time I have met people willing to stand together in the attempt of that goal and I am going there to do my part in supporting them and the goal and hopefully laying the foundation for others to build on.
> 
> For those that can't make it right now, try to later.  Those with children, educate them on what we are doing in NH so when the time come that they need to "find the own place" we will be here laying the ground work because we believe in the FSP Statement of Intent  concept http://www.freestateproject.org/soi and will work in or own ways for personal Liberties and Freedoms.   
> 
> ...


Great 1st post!  Welcome!

----------


## mport1

Apparently this years PorcFest was A LOT bigger than the one last year!  I suspect that the number of activists in New Hampshire will grow exponentially in future years.

----------


## FSP-Rebel

> Apparently this years PorcFest was A LOT bigger than the one last year!  I suspect that the number of activists in New Hampshire will grow exponentially in future years.


You can bet your bottom dollar on that. We just had like 5 new movers from the festival and many more are trying to tie up loose ends to make the move before the next fest. We had a major Mi caucus there and it's obvious as to why.

----------


## Dreamofunity

Once I get freed from all liabilities where I'm at I'm thinking about moving up. I wanted to move somewhere north considering I hate the heat here, and if I'm going north I might as well go to New Hampshire. It won't be for a considerable more amount of years if I decide to do it, but there's always the possibility.

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## literatim

I would hope Free Staters are trying to get elected in the state senate and house.

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## mport1

> I would hope Free Staters are trying to get elected in the state senate and house.


There have already been a handful of movers elected (which is impressive considering the small size of people that have moved and the 2 years you must wait before running).  There are also a lot of NH Liberty endorsed candidates that won their elections last year.

However, I think the civil disobedience and non-cooperation activism that is going on there is more exciting.  I think that is the much faster path to freedom than using the political process.

----------


## FSP-Rebel

> There have already been a handful of movers elected (which is impressive considering the small size of people that have moved and the 2 years you must wait before running).  There are also a lot of NH Liberty endorsed candidates that won their elections last year.
> 
> However, I think the civil disobedience and non-cooperation activism that is going on there is more exciting.  I think that is the much faster path to freedom than using the political process.


Regarding NH Liberty Alliance endorsed candidates, there where ~90ish. Regarding civil dis, I'd say it's exciting but most people will realize change through politics, unfortunately. Civil dis is like asking for a target to be put on your back, but be my guest if you have brass balls.

----------


## FSP-Rebel

I meant, 90+ NHLA candidates that won last time around, 2010 will see more. What other state has that many pro-liberty folks winning office anywhere in the country, let alone the FSPers that have won? If you like this progress, look us up @ http://freestateproject.org We also have out-of-the-system activists as well and they do great things, check them out @ http://freekeene.com. We'd love to have ya.

----------


## RonPaulVolunteer

> Why aren't we all members of the Free State Project?


Thought I should get around to posting in this thread.

I am not moving for 2 reasons.

1. It's New Hampshire.
2. I already live in the 2nd freeist state in the Union.

----------


## FSP-Rebel

> Thought I should get around to posting in this thread.
> 
> I am not moving for 2 reasons.
> 
> 1. It's New Hampshire.
> 2. I already live in the 2nd freeist state in the Union.


1. What is that supposed to mean?
2. Yeah?

Regarding #1, You must be kidding by slandering NH, you have little to no standing with that. And, NH is numeral uno as the #1 free state so far by the Mercatus Center, plus we have a worldwide movement that is padding that. Accept it and move on. So, as far as trashing NH as whatever... Watch your words, cause I'll be peeping and coming back with the flame-throwers. Speak wise, cause it will come back to haunt ya. I won't even need to bring out the crew to deal with your mantra.

----------


## DirtMcGirt

Where does Stossel live?


YouTube - John Stossel interviews Free State Project Prez & Founder

----------


## He Who Pawns

Why, because they chose the wrong state.  We need another free-state project somewhere with nice weather and cheap land.

----------


## Andrew-Austin

Why can't we just have two Free states, the second one can be Texas. We have our own power grid, and it never gets very cold down here.

----------


## He Who Pawns

I think Nevada would be better than TX, but certainly Texas has good weather and cheap land.

Problem with Texas is the large population.  NV has a relatively small population, especially when you look at population density vs NH.

----------


## scandinaviany3

> Ha, after the NH primary... I have my doubts about NH ever being "free" again.
> 
> [edit] I take that statement back. Lets keep on fighting folks. Lets not lose hope...


Agreed...maybe montana or the western US states..not NH

----------


## He Who Pawns

Not to mention that Texas is being flooded with Hispanics, which makes "taking over" the state nearly impossible.

----------


## mport1

Awesome, professionally done video of the Free State Project for those who are interested in it:

YouTube - rentFREE

----------


## Flash

> Ha, after the NH primary... I have my doubts about NH ever being "free" again.


To be fair, Ron Paul should've done more campaigning there.

----------


## mport1

> To be fair, Ron Paul should've done more campaigning there.


Free Staters' Impact on the New Hampshire Primary: A Statistical Analysis.  A very good analysis of the Free State Project's effect on the primary.

----------


## BuddyRey

What kind of artistic and cultural opportunities exist in New Hampshire?  I'm an aspiring full-time professional musician and my sister is a musical theater actress.

----------


## Icymudpuppy

I'm not fond of east coast weather, and all of the eastern seaboard is waaayyyy to crowded for me.

I'd prefer to make Idaho or some other Inland western state that isn't too close to Mexico for the free state project.  Idaho still has the decent Weather of most of the pacific northwest with 4 distinct seasons but no really extreme blizzards, no tornados, no hurricanes, no really extreme heatwaves, no "Noreasters".

----------


## Epic

> I'm not fond of east coast weather, and all of the eastern seaboard is waaayyyy to crowded for me.
> 
> I'd prefer to make Idaho or some other Inland western state that isn't too close to Mexico for the free state project.  Idaho still has the decent Weather of most of the pacific northwest with 4 distinct seasons but no really extreme blizzards, no tornados, no hurricanes, no really extreme heatwaves, no "Noreasters".


You could try the Wyoming Free state project.
http://www.freestatewyoming.org/

----------


## FrankRep

> You could try the Wyoming Free state project.
> http://www.freestatewyoming.org/


This is interesting.

The Freedom Index: The Constitutional Report Card
http://www.thenewamerican.com/files/...ndex_111-1.pdf

Wyoming has more Constitutional Congressmen than New Hampshire. In fact, NH scored embarrassing low!


*Wyoming*

Lummis (R) 90%


*New Hampshire*

1 Shea-Porter (D) 30%
2 Hodes (D) 20%

----------


## pahs1994

Should have been in Wyoming. It makes more sence IMO

----------


## Libertarian Ideals

If you're a small government libertarian-conservative, you probably would be interested in the Montana, Idaho and Wyoming region. If you are a consistent radical libertarian who opposes war, racism, intolerant cultural conservative statism and NSA snooping with as much veracity as your opposition to economic regulations and taxation, there is no better place than New Hampshire. 

For example
a. Drug war civil disobedience wouldn't fly in Wyoming but it is making waves in New Hampshire.
b. Marriage equality is a long way off in Wyoming. With the socially tolerant _and_ anti-tax culture (very rare mix indeed) in New Hampshire, marriage equality was passed this legislative session. 
b. Wyoming has next to no tech jobs, but New Hampshire has one of the highest rates of internet usage and a blooming tech industry.
 New Hampshire is the black sheep of the east coast and it's Live Free or Die motto and lack of seatbelt laws makes it subject to plenty of snide remarks from Boston city dwellers.

----------


## RM918

If I was ever going to move out of state, I'd do it all the way and get the hell out of this country.

----------


## muzzled dogg

too many boston $#@!heads

----------


## Flash

I live in Massachusetts and I hear Conservatives around here praise New Hampshire all the time. If there are people moving to NH from Mass, they're probably small-government Conservative. Just saying.

----------


## mport1

> What kind of artistic and cultural opportunities exist in New Hampshire?  I'm an aspiring full-time professional musician and my sister is a musical theater actress.


I'm not sure.  The people at the Free State Project forum might be able to answer that for you.

----------


## FSP-Rebel

> I live in Massachusetts and I hear Conservatives around here praise New Hampshire all the time. If there are people moving to NH from Mass, they're probably small-government Conservative. Just saying.


Yep, the majority of Mass people that move up here are conservatives. I've posted links to articles regarding this somewhere on this thread.

Regarding the cultural scene, Portsmouth is where you want to be and maybe even Hampton. Concord also has the "Capital Center for the Arts."

And, I have no complaints about the weather at all. My mission for freedom in my lifetime doesn't include some island in the Pacific. Regarding the western states, the FSP chose NH partly because it wasn't land-locked. But, I'm not gonna rehash the other reasons (previously mentioned in this thread) as to why NH was the chosen FSP state.

----------


## FSP-Rebel

> This is interesting.
> 
> The Freedom Index: The Constitutional Report Card
> http://www.thenewamerican.com/files/...ndex_111-1.pdf
> 
> Wyoming has more Constitutional Congressmen than New Hampshire. In fact, NH scored embarrassing low!
> 
> 
> *Wyoming*
> ...


Which will be changed in 2010. WY is pretty conservative in general and wasn't affected by the anti-Bush sentiments that swept the nation. NH is an independent state that goes back and forth all the while having it's individualist attitude - we also gained 17 gop seats in the state house in the last election when most states picked up more democratic seats. I'll admit WY is a beautiful state but good luck finding much gainful employment. We also beat them on taxes.

I'm not so much concerned about my national reps cause anyone in Congress apparently represents and affects me, hence my support for Paul and Schiff. About 25-30% of our state house is libertarian-leaning republicans and democrats, including 4 FSP people. We have the best state representation ratios in the country (I moved here from Mi recently where my state rep covered ~100k+ people, but now my rep covers only 3000 - so my voice is over 33 times more effective), not including our libertarian caucus that is unrivaled by any other state. The fact that we once again told the feds to get lost over seat belt legislation is all one really needs to know about the texture of NH residents compared to other states. Again, there's more liberty-loving activists in NH (lb for lb) than any where else in the world, with more coming in every week. Keene, NH has become the liberty media capital of the world as well. They also have plenty of civil disobedience going on there which doesn't really happen anywhere else. As we continue to thrive (NH has been rated #1 most livable place for the last 5 years in a row by Morgan Quitno Press) and become more free, folks across the country might have to lay down the nit-picking and see the FSP for what it really is.

----------


## Dianne

I'm in... committed to moving in two years when the daughter graduates from high school....

----------


## FSP-Rebel

> I'm in... committed to moving in two years when the daughter graduates from high school....


Bless you all. You'll love it here.

----------


## Flash

Out of curiousity, how popular is the actual Libertarian Party in NH?

----------


## FSP-Rebel

> Out of curiousity, how popular is the actual Libertarian Party in NH?


It's a little better than the average, but most libertarians are involved in the dem or rep parties in a stealthy fashion. Though, most county GOPs are heavily influenced by freestaters and C4L members.

----------


## mport1

> It's a little better than the average, but most libertarians are involved in the dem or rep parties in a stealthy fashion. Though, most county GOPs are heavily influenced by freestaters and C4L members.


And the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance is heavily involved in politics in New Hampshire and is getting a lot more accomplished than what other states are able to.

----------


## Stary Hickory

If NH is as free as you claim I will look into it, I just find it hard to believe since it's got MA right next to it and other liberal hotbeds. How is it NH has held out against all of this?

----------


## Flash

> If NH is as free as you claim I will look into it, I just find it hard to believe since it's got MA right next to it and other liberal hotbeds. How is it NH has held out against all of this?


Most are Conservatives, see here:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpos...&postcount=421

----------


## FSP-Rebel

> If NH is as free as you claim I will look into it, I just find it hard to believe since it's got MA right next to it and other liberal hotbeds. How is it NH has held out against all of this?


Go to the 3rd link in my sig and ask some questions there. You'll get a much broader perspective than what I can give. The question about Mass affecting NH would be a great one to start off with.

----------


## Dianne

I will be moving to NH in less than two years with the Free State Project, but damn...  I wish I could just leave the USA completely.   Don't know that one state can do the trick... doubt it.   I hate this country and everything it has turned out to be.      Let me restate this... I love my country, but I hate the corruption and the destruction the US Senate and the President continue to bring upon the country.     I'm just ready to bolt...   peeps are so damn dumb they keep electing crooks like Pelosi... Reid... Bush.... Obama..   I mean these are not subtle crooks... they are straight up, on the table crooks and liars.    What the hell?   If peeps in the USA are so damn dumb, I feel like moving on.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> I will be moving to NH in less than two years with the Free State Project, but damn...  I wish I could just leave the USA completely.   Don't know that one state can do the trick... doubt it.   I hate this country and everything it has turned out to be.      Let me restate this... I love my country, but I hate the corruption and the destruction the US Senate and the President continue to bring upon the country.     I'm just ready to bolt...   peeps are so damn dumb they keep electing crooks like Pelosi... Reid... Bush.... Obama..   I mean these are not subtle crooks... they are straight up, on the table crooks and liars.    What the hell?   If peeps in the USA are so damn dumb, I feel like moving on.


Not all are dumb, but enough are that the crooks stay in power.  If the smart folks were the majority, there'd be no government to start with!

----------


## mport1

Here is a recent Boston Phoenix article on the FSP.  Decent coverage considering how libertarians are usually treated in the media.

Here are two other good articles covering the FSP from The Boston Globe and another one that was picked up by Fox News, The Washington Post, Yahoo News, and about 200 other places.

----------


## Flash

> n... I wish I could just leave the USA completely. Don't know that one state can do the trick... doubt it.


New Hampshire could be independent. All you have to do is look at Switzerland or Liechtenstein. The only problem with secession is the US Federal Government. And personally, I'm becoming a secessionist just for the fact I am beginning to hate the phony Anti-War Progressives and the phony 'small-government' Neo-Cons.

Oh if anyone in NH knows.. what ever happened to that bill from January that would give New Hampshire a right to secede? Was that ever passed?

By the way it would be great if New Hampshire could have some Libertarian media outlets. May be Reason internet TV could buy some local television space in New Hampshire or something.

----------


## FTL_Ian

NH is already the liberty media capitol of the world.  In Keene alone we have Free Minds Media, Obscured Truth Network, Free Talk Live, the NH Free Press, and FreeKeene.com

----------


## Flash

It'd be great if we could get Reason and some other Pro-Libertarian outlets to buy airtime on local NH TV & NH radio. Hey the Neo-Cons & Liberals have a monopoly on radio & TV as it is, we should start fighting back on a local level. :P

----------


## FSP-Rebel

> NH is already the liberty media capitol of the world.  In Keene alone we have Free Minds Media, Obscured Truth Network, Free Talk Live, the NH Free Press, and FreeKeene.com


Ian (FTL) is the most precious of our media, his show makes more waves than any others.

----------


## FTL_Ian

> It'd be great if we could get Reason and some other Pro-Libertarian outlets to buy airtime on local NH TV & NH radio. Hey the Neo-Cons & Liberals have a monopoly on radio & TV as it is, we should start fighting back on a local level. :P


Flash, they don't have a monopoly, otherwise my show wouldn't be on 50 radio stations.  Here in Keene we have our liberty-oriented product all over Cheshire TV, the only locally originating channel in the area.  We also have my radio show on the radio on WKBK and WZBK here in Keene.

My point is, I think your suggestion, while a good one, includes too many steps.  Rather than beg Reason to buy ads in NH, you could just go and produce your own program like Free Minds TV in Keene or NH Capitol Access in Concord (both shows air across the state, and FMTV across New England).  Besides, it's very unlikely that you'll get the beltway libertarians to care too much about NH activism, so you should just do it yourself.

Of course, that would require moving here first, which would place you in the top 1% of activists around the country.  When can we expect you?

----------


## MelissaWV

Because I believe insulating oneself from the problem, and making a little pocket of happiness in the world, doesn't ACTUALLY mean the problem has gone away.

Because I've met enough of my potential neighbors to know there is a high chance I might end up near someone who thinks showing their tatas for liberty is the best thing they can do for their country.

Because I can't abandon a career to move to an area where there is almost no use for my particular skills.  For that matter, I don't want to move to NH.  I think the occasional implication that someone is somehow less interested in freedom because they can't just ditch property, career, family, and other bonuses of living elsewhere... that implication just stinks.

Because I'd rather do things or donate to worthy causes with specific goals than be a "member" of something that doesn't really jive with what I believe in.

Hey... you're the one that asked!

----------


## FTL_Ian

Don't think I asked you anything, did I Melissa?  I believe I was talking to Flash.  Since you bothered to take the time to attack Cassidy without naming her, I'll respond:




> Because I'd rather do things or donate to worthy causes with specific goals than be a "member" of something that doesn't really jive with what I believe in.


What are you referring to?  The Free State Project?  FSP Participants sign a statement of intent affirming they believe government's maximum role should be the protection of life, liberty, and property.  If you don't agree with that, you definitely don't belong in the FSP or anywhere in NH.  I must ask, if you don't believe in that, what do you believe in?  (You could also be in the FSP and believe in a truly voluntary society, as I do.)




> Because I can't abandon a career to move to an area where there is almost no use for my particular skills. For that matter, I don't want to move to NH. I think the occasional implication that someone is somehow less interested in freedom because they can't just ditch property, career, family, and other bonuses of living elsewhere... that implication just stinks.


Freedom is either a priority or it isn't.  If 20,000 liberty activists were all in the same geographic region and actually rolling back government instead of just doing the usual "activism" of failed political campaigns and begging, you're saying you wouldn't want to be there because you have strings like property, career, and family somewhere?  That means those things for you ARE more important than pursuing freedom, and that's okay.  You should pursue what pleases you.  Just don't pretend like freedom is very significant to you beyond a hobby.  Everyone needs a hobby.  Maybe someday yours will make a difference where you are.  Or, maybe not.  At least you'll have your property, career, and those family member who also don't care enough about freedom to follow you to NH.




> Because I've met enough of my potential neighbors to know there is a high chance I might end up near someone who thinks showing their tatas for liberty is the best thing they can do for their country.


That diss is reason enough for you to stay home.  "How dare those women act as free as their male counterparts!"  Do you also want to bring back the scarlet letter?  Maybe you just wish you had half the courage of Cassidy Nicosia...  It sure doesn't take any courage to do most political activity.  




> Because I believe insulating oneself from the problem, and making a little pocket of happiness in the world, doesn't ACTUALLY mean the problem has gone away.


I'm not as concerned with areas outside my pocket of happiness.  I know that when the voluntary society comes to Keene and NH that the rest of the world will see us and want our tremendous wealth and freedom for themselves.  Many will come to NH from around the world and make better lives as it will be the beacon of liberty, and then other areas outside NH will begin getting freer, hopefully.  If they don't, that's their problem.

----------


## MelissaWV

Notice I said "the best" thing they can do for their country.  You then turned it around to make it seem like I'm somehow anti-activist, and "wish I had the courage" to go topless?  Interesting logic, that.  

There are a lot of things which are lovely and worthy.  There are a lot of very important causes which need support and press.  I had no idea the right to show breasts was the most pressing issue of our time.  If you don't think it is, either, then you actually agree with what I was saying, but just feel you'd like to start a fight.

The thread title is "Why aren't we all members of the Free State Project?" which is a question, and it was asked of the Ron Paul Forums (now Liberty Forest) community, so yes, I was asked a question.

Am I not free to answer it?  Your response, FTL_Ian, would seem to indicate that answers such as mine simply aren't up to your standards.  

As for membership, I don't like it.  I don't "sign up" for things, I just do them.  I barely sign up for forums or anything of the like, and usually with fake names and addresses for good measure.  I don't like being on lists, because when something happens "in the name of" the FSP that I don't agree with, my name is still associated with it.  That really can happen with anything.  I don't think I'm the only person on the entire forum who doesn't like putting their information out on lists and with groups, especially with what has happened with information like that in the past.  In other words, I have my reasons.

Your entire criticism in the rather large central paragraph is that I don't feel like abandoning a career.  Yes, I should move to NH and have no money.  I forgot!  We shouldn't believe in money!  Are you joking?  I worked very hard to be doing what I am doing, and there is no market for it in New Hampshire.  The implication that, because I am not moving to a pocket where freedom will be EASIER TO OBTAIN (and that's the entire point, right?), I somehow care less about what happens... it's idiotic at best.  Perhaps RonPaulHawaii should have just done his freedom ride through NH; it is obviously the only portion of the US that cares.  No?  He went across the entire country?  Hmmm.

I prefer to work locally to achieve freedom.  I don't prefer to just move to where people love freedom more than elsewhere, and the rest of the populace be damned.  That's my own choice, and you can think it's stupid if you'd like, but perhaps I'm not the only one making that choice.  Perhaps that's a reason why more people don't join the FSP or move to NH.  That, then, is a possible partial answer to the OP, which is why I posted it.

I'm sure you don't believe in having a job or money, either, which is why you're typing from a computer with internet access.  Those must have been free, too.  Will I get one when I move to NH?  No?  Food?  Shelter?  I mean real shelter, please, not crashing on someone's couch.  Will people continue working towards freedom and holding their local officials accountable in my area once I up and abandon those efforts?  Why should they?  They should all drop everything and move to NH!

I addressed your points, and I addressed the OP, and I don't really think there's more to say on it.  Attack me some more if you'd like, but I don't think that's going to convince me to pull up stakes and abandon my current projects

----------


## dr. hfn

We take this state back and we will start an unstoppable wave of revolution.

----------


## Flash

There are a lot of things that the Free Staters do that I disagree with, but the point is-- most of New England is filled with Liberalism and New Hampshire provides a nice refuge for Small-government Conservatives and Libertarians. Obviously having a sucessful Libertarian/Conservative state in New England would do wonders for the movement. Never to mind the obvious New Hampshire primary which bascially decides who becomes the Republican nominee. I would have to ask you, Melissa, to read the first sentence of the OP:

_If only a small portion of Ron Paul supporters signed up we could get this done._

----------


## FTL_Ian

Melissa, I never said you were stupid, though reading comprehension doesn't seem to be one of your strengths.  I said you should do what pleases you.  If you think you can achieve freedom right where you are, you're welcome to keep trying.  Maybe I'm wrong, and there will be a big liberty awakening wherever you are and you'll be able to say you told me so.

Or, maybe you'll never make progress.  At least you'll have your career to comfort you.




> I'm sure you don't believe in having a job or money, either, which is why you're typing from a computer with internet access. Those must have been free, too. Will I get one when I move to NH? No? Food? Shelter? I mean real shelter, please, not crashing on someone's couch.


You're sure, are you?  How did you get so sure?  I don't see any suggestions that I have a problem with money in my posts.  As an entrepreneur, I haven't had a job in years, but that doesn't mean I don't have or appreciate money. 




> Attack me some more if you'd like, but I don't think that's going to convince me to pull up stakes and abandon my current projects


You misunderstand.  You seem to be a bit of a prude, so I really don't want you to come to NH.  (You certainly would not fit in here in Keene.)  Please stay right where you are.  My points were made primarily for the benefit of those reading this thread.

I want to recruit those who are fed up with toiling endlessly where they are for no return on their investment.  I want to recruit those who are ready to try a new approach instead of the same old tactics.

----------


## MelissaWV

lol... prude.  That's funny for a variety of reasons.

You still seem to have skipped the part where I don't think it's *THE BEST* way to secure liberty and justice for all, the part where I said I don't believe it's *THE MOST IMPORTANT* issue facing us right now.  

Someone listed a "top ten" recently, and I don't recall the rights of women to show their nipples being on there.  

I also never said you said I was stupid, so the reading comprehension issue is not on my end   In fact, I said you can consider my rationale stupid if you'd like, which you obviously do, as is your right.  

As an entrepreneur making enough money to survive comfortably, what if you were challenged to move to, say, Arizona, with no means to make money other than switching what you do entirely, perhaps to flipping burgers?  Would it seem as easy?  Why look down so scornfully on those who make another choice?  I say again: I was answering the OP's question.

(Flash:  The question, the thread topic, says "Why aren't we all members of the Free State Project?" despite what it says later on in the actual post.)




> I want to recruit those who are fed up with toiling endlessly where they are for no return on their investment.


You're correct in thinking this isn't me   I'm getting a nice return on my various investments.  The only bad investment I made was staying married to someone who... let's just say he declined in value.  Badly.  Monetarily, though, I am doing well, and I am happily converting people to Dr. Paul's messages and those candidates I do believe in.  

New Hampshire has been kind of hit and miss with its successes, and hopefully it becomes more and more steadily a place which stands for freedom and self-made prosperity.  Just like Paulville and other such projects, I *personally* disagree with creating a pocket of like-minded individuals and the rest be damned.

At best, it simply makes it harder to spread the message to the populace (and, if the country's to change, more people need to learn)... at worst, it puts all the eggs in one basket, which makes it very convenient for the Government to deal with "the problem".

And... once more... lol prude.  I guess in reality the fact I prefer a bra on myself might make me a prude to some.  In 10 years when gravity would start to set in, I think people would be glad I cared about support  I think that, while the Constitution is being ridden-over roughshod, it really doesn't matter who's going topless.  I don't see why this makes me a prude.  I think it means I have priorities, and they don't happen to jive with one activist's.  If you've read the post regarding her actions, you'll see some FSP members agreeing with me.  You'll also see some worried about "image" which isn't my gripe.  

Anyhow, best of luck to you and yours.  I don't see how I could monetarily make the move, and I don't see why I should, so I'm not.  It has nothing to do with me being a "prude" or anything along those lines.  My days of hedonism are far from over.  

Love ya!
~M

----------


## FSP-Rebel

Melissa, congrats on converting people to Dr. Paul's message from where you are as we need all the help we can get in the Revolution movement, keep up the good work. I'm also glad to hear you're doing well in your personal situation. But, I have to agree with Ian in regards to why converging liberty lovers to one state is the freshest new concept in obtaining liberty in our lifetimes. It can not be said that we want the rest of the country to be damned considering that NH practically anoints the Prez contenders. The more help we get up here from new movers, the better showing we can have for a Paul-type candidate in 2012. Success in NH will be the shot heard around the world.

----------


## mport1

I posted some links on the original post which I'll also post below.  If you are interested in following the progress that this small number of early movers are having, these are great places to start.  

Even with less than 1,000 people that have moved, this group has the most active members of the liberty movement.  Every week they are making waves and doing excellent work in the pursuit of liberty.

http://www.freestateproject.org
http://www.freetalklive.com
http://freekeene.com/
http://nhfree.com/
http://ridleyreport.com/
http://obscuredtruth.com
http://www.nhliberty.org/
http://www.freemindsmedia.com/

----------


## porcupine

I'm a free stater who moved to NH and doesn't agree that women should be able to go around topless.  Perhaps FTL_Ian thinks I should go back to where I came from?

----------


## FTL_Ian

Would you also like to prevent men from being topless?

----------


## Keith and stuff

Porcupine, I'd be shocked if Ian thought that.  Ian works wills lots of people he doesn't agree with about everything.  It seems that no two free staters agree on every single issue.  Yet the majority of us get along fine with not only other free staters, but many of the other people in the much larger NH pro-freedom community.

Anyway, as to the OP, the FSP just had a money bomb and it went very well.  Great work everyone and thank you for giving.  Of course, if you didn't give as part of the money bomb, you can still give

----------


## FSP-Rebel

> Anyway, as to the OP, the FSP just had a money bomb and it went very well.  Great work everyone and thank you for giving.  Of course, if you didn't give as part of the money bomb, you can still give


http://www.freestateproject.org/volunteer/donate

----------


## porcupine

> Would you also like to prevent men from being topless?


Men (usually) don't have boobs.  Girls (usually) don't have dicks.  I learned this in third grade, what were you up to during this lesson?

----------


## JamesButabi

> Men (usually) don't have boobs.  Girls (usually) don't have dicks.  I learned this in third grade, what were you up to during this lesson?


I guess it comes down to personal values.  Some people feel morals passed down through a religion or schooling system should be accepted as universal and set in stone.  I think if somebody has the urge to walk around naked, let them be.  If people aren't causing harm to anyone else that's enough for me.  Complete freedom is definetely an unfortunate minority thought.

----------


## FTL_Ian

> Men (usually) don't have boobs.  Girls (usually) don't have dicks.  I learned this in third grade, what were you up to during this lesson?



Seems to me that both men and women have nipples.  Considering that is the area that is typically covered by clothing such as bikinis, that would seem to be the most "offensive" part.

So, by saying what you did, are you suggesting that flat-chested women should be allowed to go topless, but that men and women with breasts should be prevented from revealing them?

Please explain your position a little better.  I'm doing my best to understand it.

----------


## mport1

Stunning footage against another peaceful Free State Project member as he is assalted after being sentenced to six months in jail for "contempt."  More info on what happened at Free Keene.

YouTube - NH Street Gangs Run Wild

----------


## bucfish

I would hope everyone in NH gets in a rear end collision and The NH Live Free or Die license plate gets embedded in their forehead

But besides that IT IS COLD AS #%$@

----------


## FSP-Rebel

> But besides that IT IS COLD AS #%$@


I live in a heated house so it's not much of a problem for me. The lower taxes and more freedoms more than makes up for that. Plus, there's so many cool activists that you get to meet.

----------


## Flash

Are they any good New Hampshire secessionist boards out there? I know about NHunderground but their secession forum really isn't active. I honestly think splitting from America is the only way to save our liberties from this monster government.

----------


## FTL_Ian

> Are they any good New Hampshire secessionist boards out there? I know about NHunderground but their secession forum really isn't active. I honestly think splitting from America is the only way to save our liberties from this monster government.


Not secession specific, but the Free Keene forum has a sovereignty section and lots of secession-friendly participants.

----------


## disorderlyvision

> Men (usually) don't have boobs.  Girls (usually) don't have dicks.  I learned this in third grade, what were you up to during this lesson?


You didn't figure that out til the third grade Wtf? A little slow are we?

----------


## mport1

So, its been over a year since people were posting a lot on this topic.  The government continues to expand beyond control and our chances at freedom coming first from the national level are dwindling.  Now more than ever I believe that we need to concentrate activism in one area so we have a better shot at success.  Even with the few hundred people that have made the move early, the FSP is having some great successes.  Imagine if we got 20,000 to make the move!

So I ask again, one year later, if you have not signed up for the Free State Project (which only means you will pledge to move within 5 years after 20,000 others sign), what is holding you back?

----------


## FTL_Ian

Moving to NH as part of the Free State Project was one of the best decisions in my life.  I am so glad to be here with so many others who love liberty.  Moving here was instantly rewarding and just keeps getting better as more people move!

----------


## BuddyRey

I'd love to be with you guys in NH, but there's no way I can afford the property taxes in Keene.  Is Grafton any better?

----------


## TheHumblePhysicist

I may visit just to check it out, but as far as moving there goes... ehhhh. Maybe when I finish college. I currently live in California, and it will be hard to leave paradise for New England.

----------


## FTL_Ian

> I'd love to be with you guys in NH, but there's no way I can afford the property taxes in Keene.  Is Grafton any better?


Keene is one of many places in NH and has the 2nd highest property taxes in the state.  Can you really afford to keep living where you are?  Sure is nice being around an ever-increasing number of liberty-lovers.  Is that happening anywhere else?

----------


## FTL_Ian

> I may visit just to check it out, but as far as moving there goes... ehhhh. Maybe when I finish college. I currently live in California, and it will be hard to leave paradise for New England.


I moved from Florida and I'd rather be cold with people who love freedom than on the beach with statists.

----------


## BuddyRey

> Keene is one of many places in NH and has the 2nd highest property taxes in the state.  Can you really afford to keep living where you are?  Sure is nice being around an ever-increasing number of liberty-lovers.  Is that happening anywhere else?


That's happening in very few other places around the country, I must admit.  I'm not trying to knock the FSP in any way; in fact, I _love_ the idea and I've been bugging the crap out of my family to go to Porcfest with me for a couple years now.  I'm just curious if there's either a low-tax haven in the state, or a remote possibility of a lowering of property taxes now that FSPers have picked up some state and local seats.

----------


## FTL_Ian

> That's happening in very few other places around the country, I must admit.  I'm not trying to knock the FSP in any way; in fact, I _love_ the idea and I've been bugging the crap out of my family to go to Porcfest with me for a couple years now.  I'm just curious if there's either a low-tax haven in the state, or a remote possibility of a lowering of property taxes now that FSPers have picked up some state and local seats.


Everywhere outside of Keene is lower-taxed.  You could live in a surrounding town, enjoy the convenience of Keene, and not have to pay the same taxes.  That said, despite the burden of property taxes in NH, do remember that the overall tax burden is comparatively low to other states.  No income or sales tax (though there is an awful meals tax).

Also, buying a multifamily home and renting to other activists is a great way to cover the costs of living in Keene.

Yes, of course there is a chance for tax reform, but it's still pretty early for that.  Maybe you could come help with that process?

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

I've known Ian for 6 years now and I signed up for "The Free State Project" about that time.  I've since decided that although it's a good idea, it will not work.  I spent a great deal of those 6 years listening to Ian's "Freetalk Live" and calling the show and posting on his BBS.  I have to say that it's hard to find a meaner bunch of people than those associated with "Freetalk" when it comes to one having a "belief" in a "Creator".  

The entire 6 years I called about liberty issues and even nurtured Ian along on his path to liberty.  Many of the very arguments he makes daily now I presented to him on his show.  I certainly do not claim 100% of the credit as many other liberty minded people also called him and helped him along the path to liberty.  Yet he still doesn't get something very basic to the success of the liberty movement - YOU NEED A BIG TENT!!!  There's no way 10000 people will ever make a difference in this big land we call the USA (a legal fiction...).  Even a million will make no difference.  You must not exclude those who are "close" to understanding liberty.

Ian is very good a being a "divider".  He will accept your call to his show but if you do not accept HIS idea of what a liberty minded person is, he will shut you down.  I no longer listen to his show or call in anymore because he decided that I was not "good enough" for his show and rather than have the balls to tell me so, he would put me on hold for 1-2 hours until the end of the show.  Those in his circle and those on his BBS will spew hatred toward any who have a belief in the creator, but they will accept with open arms any kind of fringe behavior.  You can see what I put up with for 6 years on his BBS with my thread "Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer" http://bbs.freetalklive.com/hijack-f...nsible-answer/

I always presented my arguments in a civil tone and was frequently met with hostile tones and spamming tactics like posting porn in my thread.  I put up with it for a long time until I decided to fight fire with fire and I started posting awful gory death photos in the threads of those who were attacking me.  That pretty much put an end to those tactics but then they decided to simply ignore me in hopes that I will go away but that hasn't worked either.  I'm too damn stubborn!!  

 Anyway, I said all that to say this:  Many of the "liberty activists" who seem to be associated with the Freestate Project are rabidly anti-christian (I suppose they are also rabidly anti-Jewish and anti-Arab but they don't have the courage to take such a politically incorrect stance).  They (especially Ian) are also quick to try to divide the liberty movement on minor issues - even actively attacking Rand Paul (and Dr. Paul too) on minor issues instead of supporting him on the issues that really count.  If it were up to Ian, he would love to have seen Rand lose that seat.

If you review my thread above, you will see that I never tried to shove my belief down anyones throat but rather made my points and let others respond in kind.  It was civil unless someone else decided to get nasty.

So what you have with Ian and perhaps to a lessor extent others in NH are DIVIDERS.  People who want to EXCLUDE men like Rand Paul (and of course me as well) because they differ on 10% of the issues.  As long as they have this attitude of exclusion, they will never succeed and so I have decided that my family WILL NOT move to NH.  Really there is no need as people across the continent are waking up to the ideas of liberty.  The chains are becoming apparent to more and more people every day and the house of cards is falling.  It is more likely that the federal government will cease to exist before 10000 liberty minded people move to NH.

----------


## low preference guy

because NH is too damn cold?

----------


## FTL_Ian

Hey Christian Anarchist,

I guess you didn't know that Michele Seven, our Monday night co-host is a devoted Christian.

Sorry you don't like my rule that frequent callers come last.  The point is to get new voices on the air if possible, so your listeners don't keep hearing from the same ten chronic callers.

Good luck to you in Tennessee.

----------


## FTL_Ian

Also, Gene cites the behaviour of people on the FTL BBS as somehow representative of the Free State Project, which doesn't make any sense.  Perhaps his critique would be more valid if he'd actually talked to Free State Project participants in real life at the Liberty Forum or Porcfest.

There are some of the nicest Christians here without chips on their shoulder, and I enjoy their company as much as the un-churched and the atheists.

----------


## FTL_Ian

> Anyway, I said all that to say this:  Many of the "liberty activists" who seem to be associated with the Freestate Project are rabidly anti-christian (I suppose they are also rabidly anti-Jewish and anti-Arab but they don't have the courage to take such a politically incorrect stance).  They (especially Ian) are also quick to try to divide the liberty movement on minor issues - even actively attacking Rand Paul (and Dr. Paul too) on minor issues instead of supporting him on the issues that really count.  If it were up to Ian, he would love to have seen Rand lose that seat.


Finally, this is just misinformed.  I have called out the Pauls when they were wrong on liberty, but I contributed hundreds of dollars to Ron Paul's campaign.  (Though not a dime to Rand - I can't support an advocate of aggressive war.)  

Anyway, the Free State Project has Christians and atheists and Quakers, and agnostics, and Jews, and Buddhists, and others, and we all get along fine, from what I've seen.  Liberty brings people together, it doesn't divide.  Even though we don't all agree on what the best path to liberty is, we all agree that it's here in NH.  If you think you'll be free someday where you are, you shouldn't move.

----------


## mport1

Gene, I think you are pretty far off on your critique.  Although I think Ian can be quite stubborn at times and tend to agree with Mark on things (despite being an anarchist), he does not and cannot represent all the present or future movers for the Free State Project.  I don't see how the show Free Talk Live and/or its message board has any bearing on what the Free State Project can accomplish.  

There are many FSP signers/movers like myself who are fine with a very broad tent despite being extremely principled on the ideas of liberty.  And what does religion have to do with liberty?  I am "rabidly" anti-religion but that is a separate belief from liberty in my opinion.  And myself and others would never put down people because of their beliefs.

----------


## Keith and stuff

Whatever Ian and Mark say, it certainly shouldn't discourage anyone for joining and moving to NH.  They really don't even show up at most of the events in Keene and they don't go up to liberty activists that don't like them at events are start acting rude to them.  Heck, even if you hated Ian you could still have a great time in Keene and almost never see him.  Of course, no one here is that petty, anyway 

Additionally, Keene is just one city in NH.  There are around 200 different towns/cities for you to chose from.  And the temperature even varies some from place to place, as does snowfall amount.

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> Hey Christian Anarchist,
> 
> I guess you didn't know that Michele Seven, our Monday night co-host is a devoted Christian.


I do not remember ever hearing her - she must be new




> Sorry you don't like my rule that frequent callers come last.  The point is to get new voices on the air if possible, so your listeners don't keep hearing from the same ten chronic callers.


This is either poor memory on your part, or an outright lie.  Only you know which.  I had ceased being a "frequent caller" having only called your show 3 times in a month.  You still put me on hold for over 1.5 hours and then came on the line after the show to try to claim that you were unable to get me on.  Just man up Ian and tell me the truth.  You don't like me and you don't want me on your show.  I'm a man, I can take it...

Also, your show USED to be about the callers and you would only do your preaching bit when there was a break in the action, but now your show is no longer "about the callers" and it's dishonest of you to make that claim.  Now your show (well, at least the last time I tried listening to it) is composed of guests and your rants.  Only a small percentage of the show is about callers anymore and even then, you are cherry picking your callers (as evidenced above).  How are you any different than Rush?

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> Whatever Ian and Mark say, it certainly shouldn't discourage anyone for joining and moving to NH.  They really don't even show up at most of the events in Keene and they don't go up to liberty activists that don't like them at events are start acting rude to them.  Heck, even if you hated Ian you could still have a great time in Keene and almost never see him.  Of course, no one here is that petty, anyway 
> 
> Additionally, Keene is just one city in NH.  There are around 200 different towns/cities for you to chose from.  And the temperature even varies some from place to place, as does snowfall amount.


My point was not that "people were mean to me so don't move to NH".  My point was that the federal government fiction will cease to be an issue long before you get your goal in NH.  No harm in trying though.  I hope you succeed...

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> Also, Gene cites the behaviour of people on the FTL BBS as somehow representative of the Free State Project, which doesn't make any sense.  Perhaps his critique would be more valid if he'd actually talked to Free State Project participants in real life at the Liberty Forum or Porcfest.
> 
> There are some of the nicest Christians here without chips on their shoulder, and I enjoy their company as much as the un-churched and the atheists.


A few months ago I posted that I was planning a trip to NH to check it out and guess how many people responded?  One.  Mark was the only one who responded at all.  If that's all the interest I can muster for a trip to N.H. then I really can't waste my time and money.  (I'm going to a surgeon this week to see about having that chip removed)

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

> This is either poor memory on your part, or an outright lie.  Only you know which.  I had ceased being a "frequent caller" having only called your show 3 times in a month.  You still put me on hold for over 1.5 hours and then came on the line after the show to try to claim that you were unable to get me on.  Just man up Ian and tell me the truth.  You don't like me and you don't want me on your show.  I'm a man, I can take it...
> 
> Also, your show USED to be about the callers and you would only do your preaching bit when there was a break in the action, but now your show is no longer "about the callers" and it's dishonest of you to make that claim.  Now your show (well, at least the last time I tried listening to it) is composed of guests and your rants.  Only a small percentage of the show is about callers anymore and even then, you are cherry picking your callers (as evidenced above).  How are you any different than Rush?


I do not listen to FTL anymore for the same reason.  After having a similar experience and emailing Ian, I received the same justification.  Despite the fact I think it's a $#@!ty practice to string someone up on hold for a couple hours just because they are a regular caller, I do not hold any animosity against Ian personally, the FSP, or anyone in Keene over what I personally deem to be a crappy practice.

I still maintain an interest in Keene, the FSP, and check their sites occasionally to keep updated.  When I was an active listener of FTL I thought they put on a good show and discussion.

----------


## FTL_Ian

Gene, I feel no negativity towards you and I appreciate that you have participated in FTL and been a listener.

Even though you were calling less-often, I still made you hold because I want new callers to have priority.  Sorry you don't like that, but I can't please everyone.  You insisted on calling on Saturday nights, when we have a high load of calls from newbies.  Had you called on a weeknight, you'd have gotten in much faster.  Sometimes we will go a full hour without a single phone call.

It's nothing personal against you.  Any caller I recognize goes to the end of the line.  

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.  Where did you post your message about visiting NH, Gene?  If it was on the FTL BBS then you should not be surprised at not getting a response - THAT IS NOT AN FSP FORUM!  Most of the people there have nothing to do with NH activism.  Try http://forum.freestateproject.org instead.

----------


## FTL_Ian

LFOD, I'm glad you didn't take it personally like Gene did, though I'm sorry you think that our phone policy makes our show unlistenable.

I hope you can understand that Free Talk Live is an open phones show, and that generally open phones is considered "bad radio" in the talk radio industry.  I have implemented policies that help make our open phones show more palatable to program directors in major markets.  Perhaps I did a poor job of explaining these policies.  If that is the case, I apologize.  However, I won't apologize for the policies.  They make sense from the listener's perspective, and that's how talk radio should be programmed.  Free Talk Live is open phones and focuses on callers, but the show is FOR the listeners.  Callers are less than 1% of our total listenership.  We do not do the show for the callers, the callers are just the focus of the program. 

Here are some of the criteria for deciding what gets aired when:
Familiar callers have to wait until unfamiliar callers get on-the-air before they can get on.
Bad calls get less airtime than good calls.
Calls are taken in order of interest, not the order the calls were made.
AMP lines are not given any priority - they are merely additional lines dedicated to AMPlifiers, which means they are easier to get through on during busy call times.
Radio listeners are more likely to be taken before internet listeners as internet listeners are mostly "the choir".

If you think our show would be better if we just took everyone in the order they called, then you should start your own syndicated talk radio show and we'll see how it works out for you!

----------


## FTL_Ian

Oh, and it's not true that we cherry pick calls, Gene.  Everyone who calls FTL will get on-the-air.  Typically if there is no call on-the-air, it means there are no calls.  The lone exception being that if we start a topic (because there are no calls), and someone calls in off-topic, we finish our thoughts on the topic before taking that call.  This is good continuity and good radio.

Generally the only time you won't get on-the-air is if you call late in the show and we have too many callers ahead of you.  In which case, you can call the next night, as we do this seven nights per week.  

No one is excluded despite what Gene believes (and he IS a conspiracy theorist, so it figures he'd think I have something against him).

----------


## MelissaWV

> Gene, I think you are pretty far off on your critique.  Although I think Ian can be quite stubborn at times and tend to agree with Mark on things (despite being an anarchist), he does not and cannot represent all the present or future movers for the Free State Project.  I don't see how the show Free Talk Live and/or its message board has any bearing on what the Free State Project can accomplish.  
> 
> There are many FSP signers/movers like myself who are fine with a very broad tent despite being extremely principled on the ideas of liberty.  And what does religion have to do with liberty?  *I am "rabidly" anti-religion but that is a separate belief from liberty in my opinion.  And myself and others would never put down people because of their beliefs*.


I picked on this, but there were any number of other posts in the thread that could have stood in its stead.

The question was why not everyone is a member of the FSP.  When people provide what seem to be pretty rational reasons for not being such, there is a bit of a rush to dismantle the reasons and make the person feel silly for bringing them up.  

If you are someone who enjoys spending a great deal of time out and about in your community, but your new freedom-loving neighbors are rabidly anti-religion (and you are religious), it is uncomfortable.  If you have to put up with the stupidity of a lecture for having a nativity or a crucifix or some other religious symbol out and about, it gets old.  If it's not so terrible where you are, and your other choice is to move to NH where you aren't partial to the weather and the potential neighbors seem hostile... then you might stay put.  Why's that unacceptable to some of the other posters?  For that matter, why's it up to the aforementioned to accept it or not?  

It has been mentioned that the move towards freedom is not happening in other places.  That lament makes no sense when the suggested solution is to simply give up and move away.  

Why aren't we all members of the FSP?  We're not all members of anything, except RPFs, so why would the FSP be different?  Some folks want to change the country but don't mind where they are, and believe being near the people they love is more important than mingling with activists in NH.  Maybe their work keeps them where they are.  Maybe the climate does (and making light of the climate's effects on some of us is just rude).  Maybe economic concerns are the core of it.  

This thread still irks me, because not only is it a pretty silly question (the thread title), but it seemed to be asked in bad faith in order to draw out people so that their reasons could be shot down.

----------


## tremendoustie

Melissa, I hope you'll forgive me for "shooting down objections", but I've got to tell you there are lots of religious folks who are members of the FSP. I'm religious, and am moving back to NH soon.

The thread clearly was started because many people who are participating in, or are interested in the FSP want more of the great folks on RPF to join! There's nothing wrong with that -- we're obviously going to try to convince you to come, because we want more great people like you around, but that doesn't mean you have to (obviously). I know many folks genuinely can't move at this time, and that's ok. Some just don't want to, and that's ok too. Different people have different priorities and interests.

Also, to put my 2c in, I have no problem with FTL caller policies, they seem to work quite well.

----------


## Keith and stuff

> A few months ago I posted that I was planning a trip to NH to check it out and guess how many people responded?  One.  Mark was the only one who responded at all.  If that's all the interest I can muster for a trip to N.H. then I really can't waste my time and money.  (I'm going to a surgeon this week to see about having that chip removed)


If you are planning a trip to NH and want to reach out to be, I highly suggest above all else that you 
1 go to the FSP website,
2 click on the left where it says Visit NH and fill out the form ( http://www.freestateproject.org/visitnh )
The Welcome Wagon page, which is under the Move to NH link has a ton of useful info on visiting ( http://www.freestateproject.org/community/welcomewagon )

Of course, the times when you are likely to hang out with the most people are Liberty Forum or Porcfest, as you know.  The Live Free or Die Rally weekend or any of the Free Keene Fest weekends or the Burning Porcupine week are also good times to visit.  If someone visits during a time other than one of those, I highly recommend checking out the welcome wagon page.

It is ok ChristianAnarchist, you don't have to do any activism for liberty at all.  It just makes sense that is anyone in the US if going to do any liberty activism, unless there are extreme difficulties, the vast majority of it should be directed in or at NH where it will usually make far more difference than anywhere else.  Heck, even donating $10 to the NHLA or FSP every month would be a much better use of money than donating $20 per month to a liberty group in your area.

I don't know what the feds are gonna do but I know there is more liberty activism in NH than the entire tri-state area I used to live in.  In people are going to get liberty in any part of the US, it will certainly happen in NH first.

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> Gene, I feel no negativity towards you and I appreciate that you have participated in FTL and been a listener.
> 
> Even though you were calling less-often, I still made you hold because I want new callers to have priority.  Sorry you don't like that, but I can't please everyone.  You insisted on calling on Saturday nights, when we have a high load of calls from newbies.  Had you called on a weeknight, you'd have gotten in much faster.  Sometimes we will go a full hour without a single phone call.
> 
> It's nothing personal against you.  Any caller I recognize goes to the end of the line.


Ya, sure... Unless it's one of your pals.  They go to the front and get "guest" status.  I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it.  I'm just saying you are no longer "Freetalk Live".  You are now "The Ian Freeman Show"...  It's your show, do whatever you want with it, just don't lie about your format.  The listeners know . . .




> Anyway, back to the topic at hand.  Where did you post your message about visiting NH, Gene?  If it was on the FTL BBS then you should not be surprised at not getting a response - THAT IS NOT AN FSP FORUM!  Most of the people there have nothing to do with NH activism.  Try http://forum.freestateproject.org instead.


I tried one of the NH forums a couple of years back (forget which one) but just wound up getting flamed by two of your favorite people (who both happen to be "moderators" on your BBS).  I'm sorry man, but you tend to be "known" by the company you keep.  And your pal "Bonner Joe" is quite the character, isn't he?? 

Oh, but let Rand Paul show some ignorance on one issue and you will blast him while promoting such to "Moderator".

As Mark likes to say sometimes, you are one crazy guy.

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> Oh, and it's not true that we cherry pick calls, Gene.  Everyone who calls FTL will get on-the-air.  Typically if there is no call on-the-air, it means there are no calls.  The lone exception being that if we start a topic (because there are no calls), and someone calls in off-topic, we finish our thoughts on the topic before taking that call.  This is good continuity and good radio.
> 
> Generally the only time you won't get on-the-air is if you call late in the show and we have too many callers ahead of you.  In which case, you can call the next night, as we do this seven nights per week.  
> 
> No one is excluded despite what Gene believes (and he IS a conspiracy theorist, so it figures he'd think I have something against him).


Oh yeah, start putting me in a box now.  (Ian IS and idiot, so it figures he'd think I would claim "conspiracy"...) ROFL

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> I hope you can understand that Free Talk Live is an open phones show, and that generally open phones is considered "bad radio" in the talk radio industry. I have implemented policies that help make our open phones show more palatable to program directors in major markets. Perhaps I did a poor job of explaining these policies. If that is the case, I apologize. However, I won't apologize for the policies. They make sense from the listener's perspective, and that's how talk radio should be programmed.


I remember the "good ol' days" when Ian would say how he started this radio program (his dream) that "went against all rules" for talk shows.  How he became successful with his program by breaking the rule.  Who is this "Ian" who says that talk shows need to follow the "acceptable format"?  I sure don't know him...

----------


## FTL_Ian

I never made the claim that FTL breaks "all rules" of talk radio, but we do break some cardinal ones.

Clearly you have a chip on your shoulder, Gene.  Must really suck to have spent all that time listening to a show run by an idiot, hmm?  What names would Jesus call others?

Can a moderator please split off all this FTL discussion?  It really doesn't belong on this thread.

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> I never made the claim that FTL breaks "all rules" of talk radio, but we do break some cardinal ones.
> 
> Clearly you have a chip on your shoulder, Gene.  Must really suck to have spent all that time listening to a show run by an idiot, hmm?  What names would Jesus call others?
> 
> Can a moderator please split off all this FTL discussion?  It really doesn't belong on this thread.


HELP!! MODERATORS!!  SOMEONE'S SAYING SOMETHING I DON'T LIKE !!!

Why don't you just drop the subject if you don't like it?  It will die on it's own.

Anyway, yeah, after about 15 times on hold for over one hour, I got a bit jaded.  Who wouldn't?  You sure make a big deal out of any time a cop or a judge is "rude" to someone.  Why don't you live your own standards?

And really, my point here is not to talk about "The Ian Freeman" show but rather point out (as I did in my first post) why "The Free State Project" will not succeed.  Review that post for my point.  In fact, I need to thank you and your show for teaching me that point.

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## ChristianAnarchist

> Can a moderator please split off all this FTL discussion?  It really doesn't belong on this thread.


Oh, and since FTL and you personally are without doubt, the biggest promoters of "The Free State Project", all of the discussion about how you and other "Freestaters" treat others, is certainly "on topic"...

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## FTL_Ian

Just responding to your misinformation, Gene.  I didn't ask them to delete these posts, just split them into a separate discussion.

Gene, I had explained to you what our policy was in the past.  I'm not sure what is rude about that.  If you were to call other shows, long hold times are the norm.  I guess all the times you were taken quickly in the past don't count for much, 'eh?  Sounds to me like you just got spoiled.

----------


## FTL_Ian

True, we are their number one recruiter.  However this thread is about why people aren't joining the FSP.  You answered that question, then derailed the thread into your problems with Free Talk Live.

----------


## Keith and stuff

> Melissa, I hope you'll forgive me for "shooting down objections", but I've got to tell you there are lots of religious folks who are members of the FSP. I'm religious, and am moving back to NH soon.


I highly doubt Melissa or anyone in concerned (and if you are, sorry, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth or anything) that people won't like them or something because they are religious in NH.  In NH, just like the entire nation, people are overwhelming Christian.  And if someone was Jewish or a Pagan or something else, I'm pretty sure they would find that people in NH are tolerant.  I'm from the South and the people I've met in NH tend to be more religiously tolerant (of religion and the related practices) then where I'm from.  

In general, New England is known as a religiously tolerant area and NH is known to be more tolerant in general than many places.  The ways of the pilgrims are long since gone.  People in MA no longer kill people because they are Quaker or throw rocks at them because they are Catholic.  It's true, the populations of VT and NH tend to be near the least religious in the nation, but the vast majority of people are still tolerant Christians here.

As for the liberty people I know in NH, most tend to be religious (Protestant, Catholic, Quaker, Evangelical, Jewish, Baptist, Pagan...)

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> True, we are their number one recruiter.  However this thread is about why people aren't joining the FSP.  You answered that question, then derailed the thread into your problems with Free Talk Live.


No, it's very relevant.  The REASON I have decided to NOT move to NH after many years of preparing to go there, was because of you and your "friends" Sure, NH is a big state (well, not really) and I certainly could just try to avoid people like you there, but really, how much can we accomplish by being "divided" (which was another point I made earlier)...

----------


## FTL_Ian

That's right.  That's the appropriate part of your posts.  The rest of them focus on your issues with how I run my radio show.  That should be a separate thread.

I don't know which "friends" you are referring to.  If you are talking about the BBS people, they are mostly not in NH.  I hardly even go there myself.

The people I know in NH are the nicest most accepting folks I've ever met.  Had you bothered to research outside the FTL BBS, maybe you'd have found that out for yourself.

I have friends here who are christians and some of them are co-hosts on my radio show, like Michele Seven, Nick Ryder, and Wayne Quin.

Hopefully the people reading this can see clearly that you did not visit NH-based forums to form your opinions, you certainly didn't visit NH and meet the activists, and that you chose to bias your decision to not move to NH based on the fact that you have a personal beef with a few of the approx 10,500 members.

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> I highly doubt Melissa or anyone in concerned (and if you are, sorry, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth or anything) that people won't like them or something because they are religious in NH.  In NH, just like the entire nation, people are overwhelming Christian.  And if someone was Jewish or a Pagan or something else, I'm pretty sure they would find that people in NH are tolerant.  I'm from the South and the people I've met in NH tend to be more religiously tolerant (of religion and the related practices) then where I'm from.  
> 
> In general, New England is known as a religiously tolerant area and NH is known to be more tolerant in general than many places.  The ways of the pilgrims are long since gone.  People in MA no longer kill people because they are Quaker or throw rocks at them because they are Catholic.  It's true, the populations of VT and NH tend to be near the least religious in the nation, but the vast majority of people are still tolerant Christians here.
> 
> As for the liberty people I know in NH, most tend to be religious (Protestant, Catholic, Quaker, Evangelical, Jewish, Baptist, Pagan...)


Keith, I like you (hey for the most part, I like Ian too and agree with him on most points) but the fact that many "freestaters" are self-admittedly "rabid anti-religion" is enough to make a serious "divide" in the movement.  I've promoted (through forums and radio talk shows) TOLERANCE of others yet most people see that as only tolerant towards the groups they like.  As with free speech it's the people you least like and the ideas you least like that one must be tolerant of or you are just blowing smoke.

----------


## FTL_Ian

Just because someone is anti-religion doesn't mean they are intolerant or unaccepting to people personally.  I just don't see the divides you seem to think exist, Gene.

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## ChristianAnarchist

> That's right.  That's the appropriate part of your posts.  The rest of them focus on your issues with how I run my radio show.  That should be a separate thread.
> 
> I don't know which "friends" you are referring to.  If you are talking about the BBS people, they are mostly not in NH.  I hardly even go there myself.
> 
> The people I know in NH are the nicest most accepting folks I've ever met.  Had you bothered to research outside the FTL BBS, maybe you'd have found that out for yourself.
> 
> I have friends here who are christians and some of them are co-hosts on my radio show, like Michele Seven, Nick Ryder, and Wayne Quin.
> 
> Hopefully the people reading this can see clearly that you did not visit NH-based forums to form your opinions, you certainly didn't visit NH and meet the activists, and that you chose to bias your decision to not move to NH based on the fact that you have a personal beef with a few of the approx 10,500 members.


Apparently you just "glossed over" the part about being known by the company one keeps?  You have appointed the most vile people on your BBS as MODERATORS??  The ones who post the most attacks and would probably be banned at any decent forum (you will notice they don't show their heads here).  This really calls into question your judgment if nothing else...

----------


## Keith and stuff

> The REASON I have decided to NOT move to NH after many years of preparing to go there, was because of you and your "friends" Sure, NH is a big state (well, not really) and I certainly could just try to avoid people like you there, but really, how much can we accomplish by being "divided" (which was another point I made earlier)...


Most liberty activists I know are divided on somethings (maybe even 100s of things).  Some people don't do politics but they still get a ton of good done.  Some people are divided in elections.  I helped a libertarian Democrat state rep in his bid for reelection.  Three libertarian Republicans were also running for state rep in the same district.  Some of my friends helped them and they won where as the libertarian that I helped lost his seat.  These kind of things happen and as long as three libertarians got elected in that district, I was very happy.

Because they are maybe a couple 1000 general liberty activists in NH and many 1000s of people that are active working towards liberty on at least one issue, the majority of people working for liberty in NH have only even heard of a small percentage of the people working for liberty in NH.  They certainly don't know the vast majority.  You may be right, but I think some people fail to graph the massive size of the liberty movement in NH.  Perhaps because there isn't anything else like it anywhere?

I'll give you Halloween for example.  I was aware of 4 different Halloween parties in different parts of the state thrown by FSPers.  As far as I know, no one attended more than one of those parties.  Of course, there were far, far more Halloween parties that liberty lovers attended in NH (100s maybe) but that's my knowledge.  

Keep in mind it literally takes over 2 hours to drive from the lower right corner of NH to the lower left corner of NH.  Ian and a couple other people being a couple hours drive from you isn't that big a deal.  There are likely people you don't like that live much closer to you know   Ian lives closer to NYC than he does the most northern parts of NH.  He lives in a small isolated college city that is at least 70 minutes from where the population center of NH is.  The NH population center is the two southeast countries (the ones near MA, the ocean and ME).

----------


## FTL_Ian

> Apparently you just "glossed over" the part about being known by the company one keeps?  You have appointed the most vile people on your BBS as MODERATORS??  The ones who post the most attacks and would probably be banned at any decent forum (you will notice they don't show their heads here).  This really calls into question your judgment if nothing else...


That's your opinion and I agree that BJ is very vile online, but he's a very nice guy in real life.  Regardless, I'm not sure how your opinions regarding the operation of the FTL BBS have anything to do with the other 10,000 members of the FSP that have nothing to do with the BBS or FTL.

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## ChristianAnarchist

> Just because someone is anti-religion doesn't mean they are intolerant or unaccepting to people personally.  I just don't see the divides you seem to think exist, Gene.


Cherry picking your quotes now too?  You know I never used "anti-religion" in my posts.  I said "rabidly anti-religion" which was the exact term used by a free stater a few posts back.  The RABID is the important part.  Anyone can be "anti" anything they want, but when one becomes RABIDLY anti something, it clouds their judgment and causes friction which can then erupt into (maybe) violence.  For instance, I am "anti" homosexual but I do not deny anyone that lifestyle.  I do not choose to participate in it and I will exert a certain amount of effort to avoid people who do, but I am not "RABIDLY" anti anything (well, except maybe murder and slavery).

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> That's your opinion and I agree that BJ is very vile online, but he's a very nice guy in real life.  Regardless, I'm not sure how your opinions regarding the operation of the FTL BBS have anything to do with the other 10,000 members of the FSP that have nothing to do with the BBS or FTL.


I guess your attention span is very short so I will put it in simpler terms...

YOU - Big free state project promoter and organizer
YOUR MODERATORS WHO YOU PERSONALLY SELECTED - Big jerks
YOU ARE KNOWN BY THE FRIENDS YOU HANG WITH...

Better?

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

Also - we have a business that we like to see prosper.  We have employees who work for us.  WE MAKE SURE THEY TREAT OUR CUSTOMERS RIGHT.  If they don't, they are looking for another job.  I would like to point out that we have super employees who have been with us a long time and our turnover rate is very small compared to other similar businesses in our area...

I will say that this is why your BBS is now defunct with only a handful of posts per day.  Your moderators treat many (who they don't like) as trash so your "customers" go elsewhere.  It's a hard concept for some, I guess...

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

> LFOD, I'm glad you didn't take it personally like Gene did, though I'm sorry you think that our phone policy makes our show unlistenable.


I thought the show was very listenable but the reason I do not watch TV or listen to radio is because I enjoy the participation that can be found online.  If I am going to listen or watch something I might find myself motivated to participate by calling in.  I'd rather not deal with spending a bunch of time on hold.  My opinion has nothing to do with whether or not the show is unlistenable.  The policy just doesn't fit me personally.  This is the first time I have posted about it and I am not trying to take advantage of any opportunity to "gang up on Ian."  I just wanted to convey I had a similar experience to the other poster offering up criticism.  There are no threads on FTL or FreeKeene.com of me criticizing what you do.  I am just conveying the other poster is not out in left field with the hold time aggravation.

I haven't listened lately but I am confident the show is quite listenable.




> I hope you can understand that Free Talk Live is an open phones show, and that generally open phones is considered "bad radio" in the talk radio industry.  I have implemented policies that help make our open phones show more palatable to program directors in major markets.  Perhaps I did a poor job of explaining these policies.  If that is the case, I apologize.  However, I won't apologize for the policies.  They make sense from the listener's perspective, and that's how talk radio should be programmed.  Free Talk Live is open phones and focuses on callers, but the show is FOR the listeners.  Callers are less than 1% of our total listenership.  We do not do the show for the callers, the callers are just the focus of the program. 
> 
> Here are some of the criteria for deciding what gets aired when:
> Familiar callers have to wait until unfamiliar callers get on-the-air before they can get on.
> Bad calls get less airtime than good calls.
> Calls are taken in order of interest, not the order the calls were made.
> AMP lines are not given any priority - they are merely additional lines dedicated to AMPlifiers, which means they are easier to get through on during busy call times.
> Radio listeners are more likely to be taken before internet listeners as internet listeners are mostly "the choir".
> 
> If you think our show would be better if we just took everyone in the order they called, then you should start your own syndicated talk radio show and we'll see how it works out for you!


I am simply stating the policy does not work for me personally.  I have no criticism to make on whether the policy is correct.  No one can make 100% of the people happy 100% of the time.  I am sure you feel what you are doing is working for you and that is what counts with regard to FTL policy.

Since I am in the choir I will likely continue to hang out with the choir in the various liberty oriented forums floating around the interwet or as you point out start my own syndicated talk radio show and see how it works out.

----------


## Mandrik

> Ya, sure... Unless it's one of your pals.  They go to the front and get "guest" status.  I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it.  I'm just saying you are no longer "Freetalk Live".  You are now "The Ian Freeman Show"...  It's your show, do whatever you want with it, just don't lie about your format.  The listeners know . . .



I gotta disagree with this, Gene.  In the 16 months I've been listening to FTL I've been on the air maybe 7 times if you include the time I was interviewed at Porcfest, and the time I co-hosted for an hour in studio the Sunday after Porcfest.  There were times I called in during Saturday where I spoke to Ian, told him why I was calling, and was put on hold for over an hour.  I eventually hung up, but I didn't get upset about it.  Mark & Ian are running a radio show.  They will take calls in whatever order they want.  I get it.  Every time I've called in during the week (and it hasn't been a whole lot) I've been put on the air.

Based on my experiences it sounds to me like Ian's policy is true.

----------


## Mandrik

And in defense of BonerJoe -- I LOVE THE GUY!  I don't frequent the BBS often, but we talk in chat all the time.  Say what you want about him online.  He can be very crude.  Offline Jay is a stand up dude.  Hell, Mark even described him as a "giant teddy bear."  We even went into business together at Porcfest.  He busted his ass there to make our food stand one of the most sucessful parts of Agora Alley.  If it wasn't for him it wouldn't have happened, because he brought all the big stuff, and did most of the intial setup.  I'd definitely work with him again if he wanted to.

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## FTL_Ian

> I thought the show was very listenable but the reason I do not watch TV or listen to radio is because I enjoy the participation that can be found online. ...
> 
> I haven't listened lately but I am confident the show is quite listenable.


Sorry, I was under the impression you had stopped listening because of our phone policy.  I apologize for my confusion!

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> I gotta disagree with this, Gene.  In the 16 months I've been listening to FTL I've been on the air maybe 7 times if you include the time I was interviewed at Porcfest, and the time I co-hosted for an hour in studio the Sunday after Porcfest.  There were times I called in during Saturday where I spoke to Ian, told him why I was calling, and was put on hold for over an hour.  I eventually hung up, but I didn't get upset about it.  Mark & Ian are running a radio show.  They will take calls in whatever order they want.  I get it.  Every time I've called in during the week (and it hasn't been a whole lot) I've been put on the air.
> 
> Based on my experiences it sounds to me like Ian's policy is true.


Your experience is not my experience.  Sure, everyone gets to hold for a long time sometimes... With me it was EVERYTIME!!!  Even when I'd call during the week.  It was obvious that Ian did not want me on the air and that's fine but for him to keep denying it is untruthful.  I have an email here from another "co-host" who stated something that makes me believe that I'm right but without that person's approval, I will not share it here...

----------


## FTL_Ian

> Your experience is not my experience.  Sure, everyone gets to hold for a long time sometimes... With me it was EVERYTIME!!!  Even when I'd call during the week.  It was obvious that Ian did not want me on the air and that's fine but for him to keep denying it is untruthful.  I have an email here from another "co-host" who stated something that makes me believe that I'm right but without that person's approval, I will not share it here...


Care to cite an example of this happening?  (Like, what day and time you allegedly called)  I'd be happy to give it a listen and see what was going on.  Otherwise I call poppycock on your claim.  I'd have happily taken your call last night, Gene.  Phones were empty most of the night.

I've never been anything but nice to you and you still think I have some vendetta against you.  Not true. I appreciate your participation and listenership.

----------


## Austrian Econ Disciple

ChristianAnarchist it seems like that thread you are pointing to is mostly made up of minarchists. You are aware that Keeniacs are mostly Anarcho-Capitalists, right? It would seem you would make a good fit there. (I will probably move somewhere closer to the coast...I am from Florida and all )

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## ChristianAnarchist

> Care to cite an example of this happening?  (Like, what day and time you allegedly called)  I'd be happy to give it a listen and see what was going on.  Otherwise I call poppycock on your claim.  I'd have happily taken your call last night, Gene.  Phones were empty most of the night.
> 
> I've never been anything but nice to you and you still think I have some vendetta against you.  Not true. I appreciate your participation and listenership.


Yeah right Ian, call me a lier... It's all in my imagination.  As if we can "re-create" the events of 15 different nights over the space of several months.  It's a good ploy though, throw it on me to "prove" what you did or did not do (and of course if I cannot come up with dates and times, it PROVES I'm a lier, RIGHT?)

----------


## tremendoustie

Gene, the idea of not moving anywhere in a state with 100s, probably 1000s of liberty activists, because one guy, or a handful of guys you don't like also live there seems ... insane.

I'm confident you could live out your entire life in NH, work with many great activists, and never interact with Ian at all.

On the plus side, I've always enjoyed your calls to FTL

----------


## FTL_Ian

> Yeah right Ian, call me a lier... It's all in my imagination.  As if we can "re-create" the events of 15 different nights over the space of several months.  It's a good ploy though, throw it on me to "prove" what you did or did not do (and of course if I cannot come up with dates and times, it PROVES I'm a lier, RIGHT?)


Pretty much.  If you're correct and I have some vendetta against you, you should be able to call in this week and be put on eternal hold.

Of course if you called in during the week, you'd get on, which would fly in the face of your conspiracy theory. 

You know the number.

----------


## tremendoustie

I've got to agree with ian about splitting the thread. This is for FSP discussion, not FTL drama.

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## Live_Free_Or_Die

> Sorry, I was under the impression you had stopped listening because of our phone policy.  I apologize for my confusion!


I was under the impression I stated I did because sitting on hold for a long time is not "Talk Radio I Control" according to me.  The apology is mine for being vague in my previous post about the value I place on participation.




> I've got to agree with ian about splitting the thread. This is for FSP discussion, not FTL drama.


No disagreement there because it is drama.

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## ChristianAnarchist

"Hey, why don't we all just get along?"

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## ChristianAnarchist

> Gene, the idea of not moving anywhere in a state with 100s, probably 1000s of liberty activists, because one guy, or a handful of guys you don't like also live there seems ... insane.
> 
> I'm confident you could live out your entire life in NH, work with many great activists, and never interact with Ian at all.
> 
> On the plus side, I've always enjoyed your calls to FTL


Again, my point is that "The Freestate Project", IN MY OPINION and FOR THE REASON'S STATED, will not prosper.  It's my opinion based on 6 years of interaction with certain (NOT ALL) freestaters.  It's just my opinion.  It is not everyone's opinion.  You can take it for what it is... an opinion.  Time will tell if I'm right or wrong...

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

> Again, my point is that "The Freestate Project", IN MY OPINION and FOR THE REASON'S STATED, will not prosper.  It's my opinion based on 6 years of interaction with certain (NOT ALL) freestaters.  It's just my opinion.  It is not everyone's opinion.  You can take it for what it is... an opinion.  Time will tell if I'm right or wrong...


I think you are correct if the goal is liberty but not for the reason's stated.  I think the FSP as conceptualized is not strategically viable.  The premise of FSP is that a scattered tireless minority can liberate an entire state.  I reject the premise on it's face holding geographical organization requires better strategic planning, starting on a smaller scale such as simply taking over one county, and working up.  I am on the other hand rooting for the FreeKeene wing of FSP because it is strategically focused in one locality.

I will happily eat crow if I am proven wrong.

----------


## mport1

> I think you are correct if the goal is liberty but not for the reason's stated.  I think the FSP as conceptualized is not strategically viable.  The premise of FSP is that a scattered tireless minority can liberate an entire state.  I reject the premise on it's face holding geographical organization requires better strategic planning, starting on a smaller scale such as simply taking over one county, and working up.  I am on the other hand rooting for the FreeKeene wing of FSP because it is strategically focused in one locality.
> 
> I will happily eat crow if I am proven wrong.


I'm rooting for Free Keene as well.  However, I do believe that upon completion, 20,000 liberty activists state wide would have a real big effect.

----------


## tremendoustie

> I think you are correct if the goal is liberty but not for the reason's stated.  I think the FSP as conceptualized is not strategically viable.  The premise of FSP is that a scattered tireless minority can liberate an entire state.  I reject the premise on it's face holding geographical organization requires better strategic planning, starting on a smaller scale such as simply taking over one county, and working up.  I am on the other hand rooting for the FreeKeene wing of FSP because it is strategically focused in one locality.
> 
> I will happily eat crow if I am proven wrong.


It's already having a marked impact at the state level government, with many bad bills being stopped, and a number of good bills being passed, as a direct result of freestater influence. The thing you have to realize is, the vast majority of people don't take the time to be activists, or to run for office (especially in a state where reps get $100 a year). If activists move, they have a disproportionately large impact.

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## MyLibertyStuff

> It's already having a marked impact at the state level government, with many bad bills being stopped, and a number of good bills being passed, as a direct result of freestater influence. The thing you have to realize is, the vast majority of people don't take the time to be activists, or to run for office (especially in a state where reps get $100 a year). If activists move, they have a disproportionately large impact.


I agree they do make a large impact there. However, I will move to Singapore or Hong Kong before NH.

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## ChristianAnarchist

HAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!!  Just to show how "petty" Ian and his clan are, they DELETED my thread from their BBS.  It was a thread that had posts for 6 years regarding the subject of "Christian Anarchy".  It was mainly me defending my position against attacks from the ilk there.  Because of this discussion here and criticism of Ian and his BBS, IT WAS DELETED!!!  This is the kind of childish behavior that PROVES my point!!!

Gene = 1  :     Ian = -1,000

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## ChristianAnarchist

> I agree they do make a large impact there. However, I will move to Singapore or Hong Kong before NH.


I have to agree.  The billionaire investor Jim Rogers moved to Singapore and since my wife is from China and we visit there all the time, we have been preparing for a move to that part of the globe if things really fall apart here.

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## TheHumblePhysicist

What is with all of the goddamn anarchists on this thread? They are really starting to infest the liberty movement. It's a little disconcerting.

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## ChristianAnarchist

> What is with all of the goddamn anarchists on this thread? They are really starting to infest the liberty movement. It's a little disconcerting.


Please don't think that an "anarchist" is someone to fear.  We are simply people who recognize that NO MAN has the right to RULE over another man.  This is God's law, not man's.  Anarchist are (for the most part) very peaceful people who do not want to rule over others nor do we want others to rule over us.

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## ChristianAnarchist

Update and correction.  I thought that the people at FTL had deleted my thread on their board, but instead they had moved it to their "trolls" section.  Since I do not fit the definition of "troll" as stated on Wikipedia, I moved it back to where I had placed it (as the "creator" of the thread, I have that capibility).

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## SilentBull

I will be making attempts to move to NH within 6 months.

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## ChristianAnarchist

> Apparently you just "glossed over" the part about being known by the company one keeps?  You have appointed the most vile people on your BBS as MODERATORS??  The ones who post the most attacks and would probably be banned at any decent forum (you will notice they don't show their heads here).  This really calls into question your judgment if nothing else...


Oh, just as further "proof" of the kind of people who "run" Ian's BBS - here's a link to what they are saying about my criticism here.

http://bbs.freetalklive.com/general/...e-dislikes-me/

They are saying that I did not "name name's" but that's because they failed to read the posts here.  If one reviews the previous posts, you will see that I named "Boner Joe".  There was another one but I did not "name" her because I have forgotten her name otherwise I certainly would have...

This is only posted here to show how petty and childish the "freedom warriors" that Ian hangs with.  Sure, most of them may not be in NH, but they are his "employees" or "volunteers" who are under his direct supervision. 

My entire point is that The Free State Project cannot succeed because of all this infighting and petty bickering among them.

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> I will be making attempts to move to NH within 6 months.


I hope your experiences are good and I wish you guys the best...

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## ChristianAnarchist

> Update and correction.  I thought that the people at FTL had deleted my thread on their board, but instead they had moved it to their "trolls" section.  Since I do not fit the definition of "troll" as stated on Wikipedia, I moved it back to where I had placed it (as the "creator" of the thread, I have that capibility).


Further update:  Now the "tyrant moderator" has moved my thread back to the "trolls" area and locked it so I cannot move it back.  I really expect this kind of childishness from these "friends of the freestate project's biggest promoter".  As long as such absolute HATE drives these kind of people, how can one expect them to "promote liberty"?  Promotion of liberty means you need to promote liberty FOR ALL.  Especially for those you like the least.  It's this childish behavior that has me shaking my head wondering how "liberty activists" can ever achieve their goals.  Sure, more people are actually waking up, but I'm not sure we can overcome this kind of mentality...

----------


## BonerJoe

I think it's sad that Gene has nothing better to do than complain about "trolling" on a silly radio show forum when he is one of the biggest offenders himself. Gene loves his agenda trolling, and posting disgusting gore pictures if things don't go the way he likes them. Nothing but a retired old man with too much time on his hands.

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## Keith and stuff

> I will be making attempts to move to NH within 6 months.


Oh, that's great.  See you soon!

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## MyLibertyStuff

> I have to agree.  The billionaire investor Jim Rogers moved to Singapore and since my wife is from China and we visit there all the time, we have been preparing for a move to that part of the globe if things really fall apart here.


Lucky! How is it over there? I went on a month long trip to China a few years ago, and loved it more than anywhere else on the planet. Cant wait to get over to Asia, with or without Jim Rogers

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## ChristianAnarchist

> I think it's sad that Gene has nothing better to do than complain about "trolling" on a silly radio show forum when he is one of the biggest offenders himself. Gene loves his agenda trolling, and posting disgusting gore pictures if things don't go the way he likes them. Nothing but a retired old man with too much time on his hands.


Pretty good trick there "joe".  You locked my thread so I can't move it and now you have locked me out of every posting area except "amp" and "trolls".  And the only reason for that (I'm sure) is because I'm a "amper" and you are afraid of repercussions.  Hey, if you were a real man, you would just delete my whole account, but you just are a sissy hiding behind a keyboard...

Let's see how long a troll like you can last here with a name like "Boner".  You will see that that kind of thing doesn't fly among civilized people...

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## ChristianAnarchist

> Lucky! How is it over there? I went on a month long trip to China a few years ago, and loved it more than anywhere else on the planet. Cant wait to get over to Asia, with or without Jim Rogers


Here's a link to my blog (which I haven't updated in over a year).  There's a couple of pages there about China.

http://www.freewebs.com/christiananarchist/

If you have any specific questions, you can message me.

----------


## MelissaWV

> Melissa, I hope you'll forgive me for "shooting down objections", but I've got to tell you there are lots of religious folks who are members of the FSP. I'm religious, and am moving back to NH soon.
> 
> The thread clearly was started because many people who are participating in, or are interested in the FSP want more of the great folks on RPF to join! There's nothing wrong with that -- we're obviously going to try to convince you to come, because we want more great people like you around, but that doesn't mean you have to (obviously). I know many folks genuinely can't move at this time, and that's ok. Some just don't want to, and that's ok too. Different people have different priorities and interests.
> 
> Also, to put my 2c in, I have no problem with FTL caller policies, they seem to work quite well.


Right, but if someone is openly and merrily religious and they don't want to be around folks who are openly "rabidly anti-religious," why make an issue out of it?  Hell, if the reason is "I don't like that one guy's avatar" it should be cool   The question is out there, and there were constructive criticisms offered, and the response was largely to marginalize the reasons given.  Now it's devolved into arguing over the policies of another board/station entirely.  Somehow that is not encouraging.

If my reason is that NH is cold, I don't want to hear about how it's not REALLY that cold, and I must not really care about freedom if that's a factor, and so on... which is something that usually comes on the heels of someone citing NH's climate as a concern.  

But the thread can carry on trying to make it seem like there is absolutely no *good* reason to stay out of NH

----------


## BonerJoe

> Pretty good trick there "joe".  You locked my thread so I can't move it and now you have locked me out of every posting area except "amp" and "trolls".  And the only reason for that (I'm sure) is because I'm a "amper" and you are afraid of repercussions.  Hey, if you were a real man, you would just delete my whole account, but you just are a sissy hiding behind a keyboard...
> 
> Let's see how long a troll like you can last here with a name like "Boner".  You will see that that kind of thing doesn't fly among civilized people...


Gene, I really wish you would stop your trolling. It's really getting old.

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> Gene, I really wish you would stop your trolling. It's really getting old.


From Wikipedia:

"is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]"

You are the one posting off-topic here and I suggest you take your trolling tactics back to your friends at FTL.  I see you started an account here for the sole purpose of starting your typical tactics here.  I suggest you "go home" where you belong and leave this board to people who really care about issues...

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> And in defense of BonerJoe -- I LOVE THE GUY!  I don't frequent the BBS often, but we talk in chat all the time.  Say what you want about him online.  He can be very crude.  Offline Jay is a stand up dude.  Hell, Mark even described him as a "giant teddy bear."  We even went into business together at Porcfest.  He busted his ass there to make our food stand one of the most sucessful parts of Agora Alley.  If it wasn't for him it wouldn't have happened, because he brought all the big stuff, and did most of the intial setup.  I'd definitely work with him again if he wanted to.


Yeah, you see how he's behaving now?  He's acting like a child restricting my posting ability on the BBS (in spite of the fact that I'm an AMPer).  Now he started an account (with 2 posts) simply to start trolling in this thread.  He's a piece of work alright.  And he's the "freestate project's biggest promoter's" right-hand guy at his BBS...

This is EXACTLY why the freestate project will die.  There will be people like him who want to have their way at the expense of everyone else.

----------


## Austrian Econ Disciple

> Yeah, you see how he's behaving now?  He's acting like a child restricting my posting ability on the BBS (in spite of the fact that I'm an AMPer).  Now he started an account (with 2 posts) simply to start trolling in this thread.  He's a piece of work alright.  And he's the "freestate project's biggest promoter's" right-hand guy at his BBS...
> 
> This is EXACTLY why the freestate project will die.  There will be people like him who want to have their way at the expense of everyone else.


The Free State Project is far bigger than two men. It's sort of like saying the liberty movement will fail because of George Hemminger. There are officially ~1000 early movers with many more who haven't officially updated. There are many areas where most FSP don't interact with each other too often. I will be moving to NH in hopefully a year (once I get out of the Coast Guard -- can't wait), and will most likely be heading towards the coast. While I am an Anarcho-Capitalist, I probably won't have_ that_ many interactions with the Keeniacs even though I approve of them immensely. Also, again, I would rather be with people who share my views (at least the vast majority), than be in the sea of Statists. 

And the last word -- I will not run from the fight. You can't run forever. It'll catch up to you. Patrick Henry didn't run to the West when the tyranny was getting tighter. He fought and damn well I will too. *Tu ne cede malis!*

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> The Free State Project is far bigger than two men. It's sort of like saying the liberty movement will fail because of George Hemminger.


You may be right but it would sure make me feel a little more "confident" if the "promoters" of the freestate project would outwardly reject this kind of behavior (I'm talking about Ian now...).  But instead of rejecting this kind of behavior, he condones it and defends it.  Shows very poor judgment on his part and I for one have no confidence in a movement promoted by such people.  Maybe there are enough "good" people to make up for these types, but I again express my doubts.

My best wishes to you in your move and I hope we all will see more liberty in our lifetimes...

----------


## Austrian Econ Disciple

> You may be right but it would sure make me feel a little more "confident" if the "promoters" of the freestate project would outwardly reject this kind of behavior (I'm talking about Ian now...).  But instead of rejecting this kind of behavior, he condones it and defends it.  Shows very poor judgment on his part and I for one have no confidence in a movement promoted by such people.  Maybe there are enough "good" people to make up for these types, but I again express my doubts.
> 
> My best wishes to you in your move and I hope we all will see more liberty in our lifetimes...


I don't know why you continue to try and associate with people who are hostile to you. Ignore them and work with people who are receptive and friendly to you. You must accept that there will be people in both camps. I just see the futility in this. I also would try and steer clear of broad brushing everyone. The FSP isn't in the business of 'vetting' whoever comes, merely that any liberty activist is welcome to come to NH and work to achieve liberty in whatever ways they desire. There would be less 'in-fighting' if the people hostile to each other, just ignored each other. It's not hard to do. Anyways, I hope you find liberty some-day also. 

PS: I am known to be rude to people who I have no patience with (LE, Klamath, etc.), but I ignore them and the problem ceases to be a problem. If I have any advice it is to learn how to ignore and ostracize. Cheers.

PPS: I like Ian and support him in his efforts. (While I am a Deist & Natural Rights/Discourse Ethics believer, I do agree in the fundamental end principle -- Anarcho-Capitalism. Whether you want to pursue it for religious purpose, or ethical purposes it doesn't matter. I just want to contract and live without getting stolen from, and without being told that peaceful activities are forbidden. Cheers.)

----------


## FTL_Ian

Just to prove I've got no axe to grind, as soon as I meet you when you are visiting NH for either the Liberty Forum or Porcfest, Gene, I'll make you a BBS moderator.

----------


## BonerJoe

> Just to prove I've got no axe to grind, as soon as I meet you when you are visiting NH for either the Liberty Forum or Porcfest, Gene, I'll make you a BBS moderator.


Amen.

----------


## BonerJoe

> From Wikipedia:
> 
> "is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]"
> 
> You are the one posting off-topic here and I suggest you take your trolling tactics back to your friends at FTL.  I see you started an account here for the sole purpose of starting your typical tactics here.  I suggest you "go home" where you belong and leave this board to people who really care about issues...


Gene, would you stop acting like an angry child? I'm trying to have a conversation here.

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> Gene, would you stop acting like an angry child? I'm trying to have a conversation here.


What a novel idea... It would have to be your first...

----------


## BonerJoe

Gene, when you apologize for your agenda trolling and gore picture posting...maybe we'll make some headway in our relationship.

----------


## tremendoustie

> Right, but if someone is openly and merrily religious and they don't want to be around folks who are openly "rabidly anti-religious," why make an issue out of it?


I just think the idea that living in NH means "being around people who are rabidly anti religious" is a huge mischaracterization. One could happily live ones whole life there while never coming in significant contact with such people. Don't you think I should address it, when I see what I believe to be a serious misconception?




> Hell, if the reason is "I don't like that one guy's avatar" it should be cool


I'm still going to say I think that's a silly reason to not join the NH liberty community.




> Now it's devolved into arguing over the policies of another board/station entirely.  Somehow that is not encouraging.


Yeah, it's pretty silly, although again, I wouldn't make larger generalizations based on a couple people.




> If my reason is that NH is cold, I don't want to hear about how it's not REALLY that cold, and I must not really care about freedom if that's a factor, and so on... which is something that usually comes on the heels of someone citing NH's climate as a concern.


If someone comes on here and answers the question, "why do folks still believe in Keynesianism" with the statement, "because it solved the great depression", don't you think lots of people would jump in and try to set the person straight?

I genuinely think folks from the south have a vast misconception about the climate -- I know many who have moved, and found it very enjoyable. Can't I express my opinion?

I do think it's wrong to say a person doesn't really care about freedom, because they don't want to move -- I agree with you there.




> But the thread can carry on trying to make it seem like there is absolutely no *good* reason to stay out of NH


There can be good reasons, I think -- jobs you can't leave, family, etc. 

I'll probably express why I think a particular concern is unfounded, if I think it is, but that doesn't mean anyone has to agree with me, or even listen to me. I'd hate to have someone not consider NH, or even visit, based on false information or a misconception. Doesn't that make sense?

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> Gene, when you apologize for your agenda trolling and gore picture posting...maybe we'll make some headway in our relationship.


Hey Mr. "Moderator", why don't you take your personal messages off the forums?  Trying to grandstand here?  You know very well that the only reason I did that was to counter you and your "virtual thugs" who were posting the most vile homosexual and simulated "Christ" sex pictures in my thread because you thugs couldn't make a logical argument.  So no, what I did was "fair game" given what you and your gang were doing.  Now I suggest you take all "off-topic" remarks to another media (or maybe the "moderators" here will have to take action against YOU) ...

----------


## MelissaWV

> ...
> 
> 
> If someone comes on here and answers the question, "why do folks still believe in Keynesianism" with the statement, "because it solved the great depression", don't you think lots of people would jump in and try to set the person straight?
> 
> I genuinely think folks from the south have a vast misconception about the climate -- I know many who have moved, and found it very enjoyable. Can't I express my opinion?
> ...


The rest of the post makes fine sense, but consider the implication of these two paragraphs.  You are comparing having a personal objection with relocating to NH with a factually inaccurate statement.  The climate there, no matter how "wrong" people want to tell me I am about it, is not friendly to someone with a lifetime's worth of injuries whose pain level hovers around a five on a very good day.  When many of those injuries are old dislocations, breaks, or sprains, it does become a valid reason... even if the cold is only "for a short time" or "not as bad as you think."  Instead of considering that this might be the case, though, objections to the climate are met with argument.

Something as personal as where you're going to live isn't really for others to decide about or toss in their unsolicited two cents.  It's a bit like the religion debates.  If there are factual inaccuracies being tossed around, cool, correct them.  If someone's saying "it's too cold for me" or "maybe NH wasn't ideal because of the climate," I'm still perplexed as to why that sets off some switch for some people who have to wax poetic about the beauty of the climate.   

The characterization of neighbors who are "rabidly anti-religious" is based off of anecdotal accounts, which are of course no better or worse than accounts to the contrary.  

Suffice to say the place simply isn't for me, or for many people I know, based on a variety of factors.  Call it a sixth sense:  the place and Project are giving off far from a welcoming, understanding glow.  Worthy effort, but not the one I'm going to throw my lot in with.

----------


## tremendoustie

> The rest of the post makes fine sense, but consider the implication of these two paragraphs.  You are comparing having a personal objection with relocating to NH with a factually inaccurate statement.  The climate there, no matter how "wrong" people want to tell me I am about it, is not friendly to someone with a lifetime's worth of injuries whose pain level hovers around a five on a very good day.  When many of those injuries are old dislocations, breaks, or sprains, it does become a valid reason... even if the cold is only "for a short time" or "not as bad as you think."  Instead of considering that this might be the case, though, objections to the climate are met with argument.


I either wasn't aware of, or I forgot that. Fair enough.




> Something as personal as where you're going to live isn't really for others to decide about or toss in their unsolicited two cents.  It's a bit like the religion debates.  If there are factual inaccuracies being tossed around, cool, correct them.  If someone's saying "it's too cold for me" or "maybe NH wasn't ideal because of the climate," I'm still perplexed as to why that sets off some switch for some people who have to wax poetic about the beauty of the climate.


It sets the switch off mainly because they want you there  (but also because they genuinely like the environment/climate in NH).

It's the same reason Hawaii plays ads on TV about great tourism there. They want your money -- NHites want your activism.




> The characterization of neighbors who are "rabidly anti-religious" is based off of anecdotal accounts, which are of course no better or worse than accounts to the contrary.


Well, I did live there for almost two decades, and never felt discriminated against because of my religion.




> Suffice to say the place simply isn't for me, or for many people I know, based on a variety of factors.  Call it a sixth sense:  the place and Project are giving off far from a welcoming, understanding glow.  Worthy effort, but not the one I'm going to throw my lot in with.


I just don't sense the negativity you're perceiving -- and for obvious reasons, it's important to me that folks like you are not discouraged because of a bad perception. Can you identify the source of that perception? Is it FTL? I know they do rag on religion quite a bit.

Have you considered visiting PorcFest or liberty forum? I know you're not interested in moving, and that's ok, but many have told me it's a great time.

----------


## Pauls' Revere

> Frankly, because I hate New England.


Seems NH is being swallowed up by Mass, N.Y., N.J., etc...

----------


## Andrew-Austin

> Seems NH is being swallowed up by Mass, N.Y., N.J., etc...


Please tell me there aren't any people from New Jersey living in NH.


Dear God South Park was right:




And blast it all to hell I forgot NH was right next door to Assachusetts.

I was compiling my own list of pros and cons to New Hampshire, so far the pros outweigh the cons by a lot, but I will have to add this to the cons.

----------


## Austrian Econ Disciple

> Seems NH is being swallowed up by Mass, N.Y., N.J., etc...


If that is the case how then did NHLA get 120 representatives elected? How then did they get all knife regulatory laws repealed? How then do they not have a State Income or Sales Tax? How come they are the only state that has_ no_ seatbelt laws? I could go on and on, but the fact is, it is no different than any other State that borders suckasses. Just something to think about.

Besides, they are the only state to bring to the legislature a bill specifically outlining secession & independence with a line drawn in the sand on if X happened then they would seceede (<3 Dan Itse). Yes, yes, man love. Hopefully they'll get that one passed this legislature (but, it'll get vetoed by the Governor most likely).

----------


## FSP-Rebel

> Seems NH is being swallowed up by Mass, N.Y., N.J., etc...


Try vacationing there for a week and then let me know how much NH is like the others. For god's sake, look at the differentials in gun rights, taxes, the amount of libertarian-republicans in the state house/senate, lack of seatbelt or helmet laws, the amount of liberty activists per capita, lack of regulations, etc. So, it seems that NH is way different than the others in the region. Most of the mass people that move to nh tend to be conservative, reread the thread as there are articles posted here that explain this and every other anti-NH argument that has been thought of by negative nancies. And, as the new state house convenes in the winter/spring, keep an eye on the amount of pro-liberty legislation that is pumped out. Then ask yourself if any other state is remotely similar to the libertarian dynamic of NH.

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> Further update:  Now the "tyrant moderator" has moved my thread back to the "trolls" area and locked it so I cannot move it back.  I really expect this kind of childishness from these "friends of the freestate project's biggest promoter".  As long as such absolute HATE drives these kind of people, how can one expect them to "promote liberty"?  Promotion of liberty means you need to promote liberty FOR ALL.  Especially for those you like the least.  It's this childish behavior that has me shaking my head wondering how "liberty activists" can ever achieve their goals.  Sure, more people are actually waking up, but I'm not sure we can overcome this kind of mentality...


Another update:  Now I have been "banned" at the FTL BBS.  Really what I find amazing by all of this is I think there are many "freestaters" who are reading this thread and following these events and yet NONE have said anything about this crazy childish behavior.  I might have some confidence in moving up there if I had even a LITTLE bit of support on the forums.  No one steps in to say "hey, aren't you guys getting a little out of line here?"

Hey, maybe I'm just a crazy old man.  Maybe I have lost too many brain cells in my old age.   I think it's wrong...

----------


## Keith and stuff

> If that is the case how then did NHLA get 120 representatives elected? How then did they get all knife regulatory laws repealed? How then do they not have a State Income or Sales Tax? How come they are the only state that has_ no_ seatbelt laws? I could go on and on, but the fact is, it is no different than any other State that borders suckasses. Just something to think about.


I thought it was easy to tell they were just being sarcastic.  The NH government is nothing like the MA or NJ government and anyone that has driven to NH is well aware of that.  

It is possible for people from one state to ruin the liberty of the people in another state, though.  Highly statist folks moved from CA to OR in heavy amounts and made OR much worse.  The same thing happened with people moving from NY to VT.  The really statists folks from MA often select VT or ME if they want to stay in New England or move to FL or somewhere similar if they want to retire in a warmer climate.  

Overall, MA being south of NH is a boon to the liberty movement in NH.  We can go to MA to visit stuff, attend sporting events/ concerts, fly internationally and work if we want.  Massholes can come to NH to gamble, buy alcohol, cigs, fireworks, weapons, and just about anything else (and help keep our taxes low), buy a 2nd house and pay property taxes on it and enjoy the outdoors.  Plus, the Massholes pay the toll if they want to visit ME.  It's a Win-Win.

----------


## tremendoustie

> Another update:  Now I have been "banned" at the FTL BBS.  Really what I find amazing by all of this is I think there are many "freestaters" who are reading this thread and following these events and yet NONE have said anything about this crazy childish behavior.  I might have some confidence in moving up there if I had even a LITTLE bit of support on the forums.  No one steps in to say "hey, aren't you guys getting a little out of line here?"
> 
> Hey, maybe I'm just a crazy old man.  Maybe I have lost too many brain cells in my old age.   I think it's wrong...


I don't think most freestaters have ever been on the FTL BBS.

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> I don't think most freestaters have ever been on the FTL BBS.


Many of them have and do frequent the Iantalklive BBS.  There is discussion there about my "conclusions" here and Ian even discussed it on one of his shows last week...

After a tip from another FTL BBS'er I found that mention of me on the show last week.  It was great!!!  Ian thought that the "token Christian" on his show would say that I was wrong about my "observation" that many of the Freestater's are "rabidly anti-Christian" but he was dumbfounded when Nick said he agree's with me!!! 

In case anyone cares to hear the clip it was on 11-10 at the end of the show.  On the amp version it starts around minute 109.  If anyone wants the clip, I'd be glad to email it to you or post it somewhere...

Or here's a link to the show archive.
http://traffic.libsyn.com/ftl/FTL2010-11-11.mp3

Then, "Johnson", who used to be a co-host on the show before Ian moved to NH decided to post on FTL BBS that I am right, many "freestaters" dislike me.  Here's his quote from that BBS: "I understand why Ian is confused... He's gotta be wondering.... "how could everyone be so rabidly anti-Christian, when really it seems that while many  freestatars appear to intensely dislike Gene, those same people also appear A-OK with Michele Seven?" It would seem a tad confusing I think..."

None of this is to say that I care if they like me or not (because I really don't live my live to please others).  The ENTIRE POINT of all my posts here is to illustrate how many (not all) freestaters are just plain filled with hate towards anyone who expresses any faith in a Creator.  I really don't even concern myself with that hatred toward me (I learned over 50 years ago that "sticks and stones can break my bones, but names will never hurt me) but it's the fact that so much hatred can be elicited from a group of so-called "freedom activists" simply because another freedom activist has a belief in God.  This kind of division and hatred cannot ever result in a good outcome.

----------


## Keith and stuff

> I don't think most freestaters have ever been on the FTL BBS.


That's certainly true.  If I were to guess, most FSP participants have never been on a single internet forum in their lifetime.  But anyway, most of the people in the NH liberty movement aren't even FSPers.

And incase anyone forgot, as I previously stated, even though NH is one of the least religious places in the US (along with VT and perhaps other states), the vast majority of both the general population and those involved with the liberty community are christians in NH.

Ian and I are both quakers, which is a sub-section of christianity.  Although, eastern US quakerism is so welcoming that it welcomes non-christians into the religion, as such, I doubt Ian is a christian.  Also, Mark, Sam and Dale, three other FTL co-hosts are also quakers.  Of course, FTL is in no way the FSP.  In the overall FSP picture, FTL is just a tiny, tiny sub-section of the FSP community.

----------


## tremendoustie

> Many of them have and do frequent the Iantalklive BBS.


I would be willing to lay even money that less than 1% of the NH liberty movement has ever even browsed the FTL BBS. I haven't.

I think you think this movement is about Ian Freeman, when it's anything but.

----------


## Reason

> *Why aren't we all members of the Free State Project?*


New Hampshire

----------


## Keith and stuff

> New Hampshire


Is there something about NH that I could try to improve on that would help you with this issue?

----------


## Reason

> Is there something about NH that I could try to improve on that would help you with this issue?


Yeah, make a machine that makes the weather just like San Diego please.

----------


## Keith and stuff

> Yeah, make a machine that makes the weather just like San Diego please.


Unfortunately, that would destroy the economy in NH

----------


## Promontorium

Time to set Free State Project - West in Hawaii. 

 Hawaii has 1.2 million people, 42nd in the nation, even fewer than New Hampshire.

 Hawaii has many islands liberty lovers could occupy, make their own Liberty Cities and Liberty Counties.

 Hawaii is a tropical paradise. 

 Hawaii is far away from outsiders what wanna tell us how to run our gubment, and it has an institution of tourists for weather (from America, and the rest of the world), as well as a *significant* number of Japanese tourists annually who visit for the relatively _lax laws_.

 Yeah, the laws suck, I mean they are baaaaaaad. But New Hampshire has laws that suck too, and I'll use the same excuse, when we all get there, we can change 'em.

----------


## muzzled dogg

too may boston libbys movin to nh cause its cheaper.  when they get there they vote for big govt

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> Time to set Free State Project - West in Hawaii. 
> 
>  Hawaii has 1.2 million people, 42nd in the nation, even fewer than New Hampshire.
> 
>  Hawaii has many islands liberty lovers could occupy, make their own Liberty Cities and Liberty Counties.
> 
>  Hawaii is a tropical paradise. 
> 
>  Hawaii is far away from outsiders what wanna tell us how to run our gubment, and it has an institution of tourists for weather (from America, and the rest of the world), as well as a *significant* number of Japanese tourists annually who visit for the relatively _lax laws_.
> ...



I was in Hawaii (for the first time) two years ago and I saw a lot of "Ron Paul" signs there...

----------


## randolphfuller

New Hampshire is just too cold for most Americans even to  consider.

----------


## FSP-Rebel

> New Hampshire is just too cold for most Americans even to  consider.


We're not focusing on most Americans, just liberty lovers. Ya know, those of us that woulda sucked it up at Valley Forge instead of running to their cozy spot. If the weather is the main focus of your life, then best of luck to ya. Btw, the weather in NH isn't even that bad. It snowed like 3 times last year in the lower half of the state. I could understand career or family issues with moving but crying about the weather just shows me you're a wuss, assuming that there are no health issues at stake.

----------


## ItsTime

> too may boston libbys movin to nh cause its cheaper.  when they get there they vote for big govt


NH Republicans now have a super, *veto proof*, majority in both the house and senate. My rep is on the same budget committee as myself and I get to talk to him a lot. He said there is about only 12 to 15 RINOs. Most are fiscal conservatives and many are Ron Paul republicans.

They are getting ready to amend the NH constitution and a whole mess of other things in the first year. It is a time for liberty in New Hampshire.

Progressives literally are $#@!ting bricks.

----------


## P@Riot

I applaud your optimism IT. I know I'm late to the conversation, but is it not less feasible to live in NH should the SHTF than say, Texas? Or nevada? Or New Mexico? Someplace warm?

----------


## P@Riot

I guess the saying is "Would you wear a jacket for Liberty?" and I can see that y'all have done a good job winning back the legislature, but are there not a lot of disaffected, dissacociated people who moved there? Normal people tend to have normal jobs and such, can't just pick up and move. So is there a higher ratio of social ineptitude? Not to be rude, I'm legitimately curious.

----------


## MelissaWV

> We're not focusing on most Americans, just liberty lovers. Ya know, those of us that woulda sucked it up at Valley Forge instead of running to their cozy spot. If the weather is the main focus of your life, then best of luck to ya. Btw, the weather in NH isn't even that bad. It snowed like 3 times last year in the lower half of the state. I could understand career or family issues with moving but crying about the weather just shows me you're a wuss, *assuming that there are no health issues at stake*.


How kind of you to slip that in at the end, after you spent the rest of the post predictably saying that the weather isn't really a good enough reason for why someone wants to live where they do 

None of these people have said weather is the main focus of their life.  None.  It is, however, a pretty big factor for many people when they are deciding where they are going to live.

----------


## rhelwig

> I applaud your optimism IT. I know I'm late to the conversation, but is it not less feasible to live in NH should the SHTF than say, Texas? Or nevada? Or New Mexico? Someplace warm?


I see advantages in being farther north. Sure, it might get a little colder in winter, but that helps keep out the riff-raff in a SHTF situation.

Having been through Texas and New Mexico, I would think those would be horrible places to be when the SHTF. Water is pretty dang important. Nevada? Forget about it unless you can afford to fund a large water infrastructure. (Of course this might be just as much of a blind assumption about the actual on-the-ground situation as many people have about NH.)

Plus there's a great community growing here in NH. The natives seem more entrepreneurial and more self sufficient than elsewhere. May of us Free Staters are into self sufficiency and yet are social about it.

I hope the people that won't come to NH because of the weather will consider other options like seasteading.

----------


## Promontorium

Hows about someone monetizes this endevor? Set something up where it would literally pay to move to NH. Be it low level like paying for someone to come for a specific job, or set up a community that could invest in newcomers.

 Tough sell to many otherwise, you're seeing the veracity of rational choice. To leave a home, family, a job, for what? A hope? What if I get to NH and I find out the job situation sucks, no one will hire me, they all call me "outsider" and I end up broke on the streets wondering what the hell I came for? The great migrations of old held promise of fertile and open land. NH is just a neighborhood you want us to invade. I can't plant a flag on your yard. I gotta bend my life to NH's ways to live there.

 Day 3 I'd be walking through some quiet NH town, and the Sheriff would pick me up and drive me to the outskirts. But I'd want to see if there were any jobs available, and he'd arrest me for trying to walk back. The deputies would humiliate me, mock my military service, and then they'd rough me up. Draw first blood.

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## daviddee

///

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## daviddee

...

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## daviddee

...

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## FTL_Ian

Yes, please, if you are a racist or bigot, please stay out of NH.  Thank you.

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## Flash

> I hope the people that won't come to NH because of the weather will consider other options like* seasteading*.


That's only a viable option if you're a multi-millionaire.

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## ChristianAnarchist

> Yes, please, if you are a racist or bigot, please stay out of NH.  Thank you.


Ah, but you cannot determine WHO moves to NH and what they believe in.  Some call me a "bigot" and a "racist" even though I have married into a race other than my own and our son is mixed blood.  I see differences in the races both genetically and culturally.  These differences are pretty clear to anyone who wants to openly review the evidence.  There are others, though, who wish to lie to themselves and to the world and claim that all races are the same.  If this were true, the Asians wouldn't be the ping-pong champions (as well as math champions), the Germans wouldn't be the best machinists, and the African races wouldn't be the best at track and basketball.

Of course, none of this means that there can't be exceptions.  Genetic "traits" are just that, traits.  Even though the "trait" of Asians is to be short, that doesn't mean that there can't be a Yao Ming once in a while...

As I've said for a long time now Ian, you love to exclude people from something called "Liberty Lovers" but many of those you exclude are at least as deserving of the term as you are.

We will never be successful in promoting "Liberty" until we develop the BIG TENT philosophy (yeah, even including people you don't like...)

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## Flash

@FTL_Ian, what is your updated view on Rand Paul? If I'm not mistaken you were rather critical of him WHILE he was campaigning. But now he's in office and he's opposing the Patriot Act, speaking out against the military budget and wars, trying to cut spending, etc.. it seems to me like he's a pretty good libertarian. 





> Ah, but you cannot determine WHO moves to NH and what they believe in.  Some call me a "bigot" and a "racist" even though I have married into a race other than my own and our son is mixed blood.  I see differences in the races both genetically and culturally.  These differences are pretty clear to anyone who wants to openly review the evidence.  There are others, though, who wish to lie to themselves and to the world and claim that all races are the same.  If this were true, the Asians wouldn't be the ping-pong champions (as well as math champions), the Germans wouldn't be the best machinists, and the African races wouldn't be the best at track and basketball.
> 
> Of course, none of this means that there can't be exceptions.  Genetic "traits" are just that, traits.  Even though the "trait" of Asians is to be short, that doesn't mean that there can't be a Yao Ming once in a while...
> 
> As I've said for a long time now Ian, you love to exclude people from something called "Liberty Lovers" but many of those you exclude are at least as deserving of the term as you are. 
> 
> We will never be successful in promoting "Liberty" until we develop the BIG TENT philosophy (yeah, even including people you don't like...)


I think most of what you've described has to do more with culture than genetics. Asians tend to take ping pong more seriously than Westerners. In fact east asian'ers tend to take a lot of things more seriously, ever see their starcraft competitions? Germans and northern euros in general tend to have more capitalistic governments than Mediterraneans which could explain why there are so many Nordic entrepreneurs. I don't think they're superior than southern euros but I do think their governments' policies allow more room for the market to function. Plus I'm not so so sure Asians are good at math. I know Chinese & Japanese are, but what the other Mongolids? Like vietnamese, cambodians etc.. do they also tend to be math wizards?

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## ChristianAnarchist

> @FTL_Ian, what is your updated view on Rand Paul? If I'm not mistaken you were rather critical of him WHILE he was campaigning. But now he's in office and he's opposing the Patriot Act, speaking out against the military budget and wars, trying to cut spending, etc.. it seems to me like he's a pretty good libertarian.


Haha... I used to call in to his radio show and tell him that Rand was just keeping some of his liberty views on the QT and he would shine if we got him elected, but Ian did not believe it...





> I think most of what you've described has to do more with culture than genetics. Asians tend to take ping pong more seriously than Westerners. In fact east asian'ers tend to take a lot of things more seriously, ever see their starcraft competitions? Germans and northern euros in general tend to have more capitalistic governments than Mediterraneans which could explain why there are so many Nordic entrepreneurs. I don't think they're superior than southern euros but I do think their governments' policies allow more room for the market to function. Plus I'm not so so sure Asians are good at math. I know Chinese & Japanese are, but what the other Mongolids? Like vietnamese, cambodians etc.. do they also tend to be math wizards?


I really can't say as I have not done any studies and I can't cite any.  I'm just using personal observations and my memory of things I've seen written by others.  It may be that the math thing is not genetic, but then again, it may be.  The things I'm citing are traits and by no means 100% accurate.  The "trait" may only represent a 5% increase in math ability over another race, but I still feel that there's enough observational and test data to support this claim...

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## MelissaWV

Most of the things you are talking about are not "genetic" so much as they are cultural.  Certain cultures are absolutely rabid about certain kinds of learning.  Others... not so much.  You'll find in some Asian countries that the push to succeed in math and science is borderline insane, but the flipside is that there are a lot who burn out or even off themselves.

The further removed from a culture of expecting excellence, the more it depends on the "child" motivating himself to learn.  That meets with mixed results.

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## ChristianAnarchist

Of course there are many who will try to explain all the racial differences as "culture", but that cannot explain all the differences.  I guess it's "culture" that makes blacks so much better at basketball than whites...

Of course, on the flip side, I'm NOT trying to state that all differences are genetic.  I know that many (perhaps most) of the differences are because of culture.  However, that does not explain all the differences...

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## FTL_Ian

It's not that I didn't believe it.  I don't know what to believe when a politician speaks.  I just said that if he really is principled and is going to reveal that after he gets elected, I don't support that, as he like so many politicians lied to get into office.  I can't endorse duplicity.  If he's actually working to reduce government, that's great!

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## JCF

Family.

I have no problem separating from mine, but my girlfriend is incredibly attached to hers and they ALL live in California & Oregon. Now, of course, I haven't ever offered, I'm just assuming she would say "no." I'll ask her tonight. 

Passion and love aside, breaking up with her would be a pretty damn stupid mistake.

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## mediahasyou

> Of course there are many who will try to explain all the racial differences as "culture", but that cannot explain all the differences.  I guess it's "culture" that makes blacks so much better at basketball than whites...
> 
> Of course, on the flip side, I'm NOT trying to state that all differences are genetic.  I know that many (perhaps most) of the differences are because of culture.  However, that does not explain all the differences...


In a biological sense, there are no races.  Using the definition of race as a group of people sharing the same traits, there is alot of trait variation within the human population, but race groups do not exist.

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...dcf4234247bfc3

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## ChristianAnarchist

> In a biological sense, there are no races.  Using the definition of race as a group of people sharing the same traits, there is alot of trait variation within the human population, but race groups do not exist.
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...dcf4234247bfc3


That's true.  What we generally refer to as "racial" differences when speaking of humans, is nothing more than genetic traits.  Now that we agree on that, I think we can also agree that it is common in the English language to refer to different "traits" in the human race, as "race".  It may be an imperfect definition, but it is a common one and understood by most.

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## ChristianAnarchist

> It's not that I didn't believe it.  I don't know what to believe when a politician speaks.  I just said that if he really is principled and is going to reveal that after he gets elected, I don't support that, as he like so many politicians lied to get into office.  I can't endorse duplicity.  If he's actually working to reduce government, that's great!


Yes, and I applaud him for his shrewdness.  You may call it deception, but I did not see anything he said during his campaign as deceptive.  He merely "played his cards close to his vest".  He never stated that his goal was to promote war, he merely stated (as I recall) that he believes in a strong defense.  So do I.  I think the strongest "defense" is for each to bear arms.  Now that he's in a position where he "might" be able to make some inroads for liberty, I am very pleased that I supported him in his trek.  Too bad you did everything in your power to make him out to be a warmonger and an enemy of liberty - SHAME ON YOU !!!

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## mport1

Glad to see this thread is still alive and well   Now more than ever I hope people consider signing up for the FSP.

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## FTL_Ian

> Yes, and I applaud him for his shrewdness.  You may call it deception, but I did not see anything he said during his campaign as deceptive.  He merely "played his cards close to his vest".  He never stated that his goal was to promote war, he merely stated (as I recall) that he believes in a strong defense.  So do I.  I think the strongest "defense" is for each to bear arms.  Now that he's in a position where he "might" be able to make some inroads for liberty, I am very pleased that I supported him in his trek.  Too bad you did everything in your power to make him out to be a warmonger and an enemy of liberty - SHAME ON YOU !!!


I merely read his own war and border-enforcement-supporting words.  Would Jesus have lied, Gene?

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## mport1

Gene, please call back into FTL.  I miss your calls.  You often had very interesting things to say.

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## ChristianAnarchist

> Gene, please call back into FTL.  I miss your calls.  You often had very interesting things to say.


Sorry, I'm through with waiting on hold for hours while Ian lets others go before me.  I'm still toying with the idea of visiting NH though.  Not sure I'm welcome there, being that I'm so illogical and all...

I would have to put up with the likes of Ian saying that holding your cards close to your vest is telling a lie and that even Jesus wouldn't have held information back (even though there's plenty of evidence that He did).  I find that liberty activists all over the country are much more friendly than the group that seems to have gravitated to NH.

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## ChristianAnarchist

> Originally Posted by FTL_Ian
> That's right. That's the appropriate part of your posts. The rest of them focus on your issues with how I run my radio show. That should be a separate thread.
> 
> I don't know which "friends" you are referring to. If you are talking about the BBS people, they are mostly not in NH. I hardly even go there myself.
> 
> The people I know in NH are the nicest most accepting folks I've ever met. Had you bothered to research outside the FTL BBS, maybe you'd have found that out for yourself.
> 
> I have friends here who are christians and some of them are co-hosts on my radio show, like Michele Seven, Nick Ryder, and Wayne Quin.
> 
> ...


A further update on the petty behavior that goes on in the FTL forums.  I "locked" my thread because there was a complaint about how long it was and I stated that now it would not get any longer but rather fade into the nether pages where anyone can search and find posts therein.  This apparently did not please someone who has moderator status (BJoe I would guess) and they completely deleted my thread.  It was without question one of the largest threads on that forum with many serious posts and many BS posts.  The only reason it was deleted (I would imagine) was because of the subject being a belief in God.  The atheists and agnostics who seem to run rough-shod over any who dare to challenge their beliefs (and who have been given moderator status by Ian) do not like anyone who believes in a Creator...

It seems at the FTL forums, the inmates are running the place ...

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## FTL_Ian

Gene,

I'm not sure why you are posting this off-topic post here, but Boner Joe has been stripped of his moderator powers over this.  I had asked him to leave you alone and he didn't.

Hope that helps.
Ian

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## MelissaWV

lol... Boner.

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## Flash

> In a biological sense, there are no races.  Using the definition of race as a group of people sharing the same traits, there is alot of trait variation within the human population, but race groups do not exist.
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...dcf4234247bfc3



I think that's a bunch of nonsense. There are at least five human races that can clearly be identified by any Human. 
http://racialreality.110mb.com/
http://racialreality.110mb.com/racesofman.html

There may be small differences, relatively speaking, between races. Yet races are still there.

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## Flash

Why not create an alternative Free State Project for people who don't like New Hampshire? I realize there's one in Wyoming, but I don't think that will go anywhere. I was thinking a southern Conservative state where people may be at least sympathetic to the ideas of secession.

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## FTL_Ian

> Why not create an alternative Free State Project for people who don't like New Hampshire? I realize there's one in Wyoming, but I don't think that will go anywhere. I was thinking a southern Conservative state where people may be at least sympathetic to the ideas of secession.


Hey, give that a shot and let me know how it works out!

Perhaps you will have more success starting from scratch than has the FSP which has been built into a success over ten years and just keeps getting better!

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## Flash

> Hey, give that a shot and let me know how it works out!
> 
> Perhaps you will have more success starting from scratch than has the FSP which has been built into a success over ten years and just keeps getting better!



Oh, I'm not advocating it. I'm talking about people who don't like N.H.

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## FTL_Ian

> Oh, I'm not advocating it. I'm talking about people who don't like N.H.


Well there's a lot of smoke, but no flame.  Moving to NH is a pretty serious litmus test as far as how serious someone is about activism.  I wouldn't expect the competitors to pan out into much, and indeed they haven't.  (FS Wyoming, Free Southeast Project, FS Europe)  Of course, I could be wrong.

I don't like being cold, but this is the best chance for liberty, plus thankfully we have heat.  Aside from that, what's not to like?  There are more doers up here than down in Florida, whence I come.

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## Churchill2004

> Why not create an alternative Free State Project for people who don't like New Hampshire? I realize there's one in Wyoming, but I don't think that will go anywhere. I was thinking a southern Conservative state where people may be at least sympathetic to the ideas of secession.


There is a similar (though spectacularly unsuccesful) Christian Dominionist/secessionist movement in SC.

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## Schifference

The biggest concern I have in the coming years is that of property tax. I have looked into New Hampshire and my research indicates that property taxes are expensive. I understand that there is no sales tax but I spend little and want to be more self sufficient and be able to live off earning little or in the case of an economic collapse live off of what I already own. Paying rent for my land in the form of property tax is a big factor for me. Many places in the country have cheaper property taxes. I can grow my own food and raise some chickens but I will always have to pay the property tax or lose my land.

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## jewelryab

Nobody is saying that only attend the Coast if special council must attend all brothers, but if only a logically Costalero meeting are only the bearers.

RS Gold Buy Runescape Gold

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## Sovereign Curtis

> The biggest concern I have in the coming years is that of property tax. I have looked into New Hampshire and my research indicates that property taxes are expensive. I understand that there is no sales tax but I spend little and want to be more self sufficient and be able to live off earning little or in the case of an economic collapse live off of what I already own. Paying rent for my land in the form of property tax is a big factor for me. Many places in the country have cheaper property taxes. I can grow my own food and raise some chickens but I will always have to pay the property tax or lose my land.


We need folks like yourself to move up here and help us end the property tax.

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## FTL_Ian

> There is a similar (though spectacularly unsuccesful) Christian Dominionist/secessionist movement in SC.


Yep.  That is the "Christian Exodus Project".

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## FTL_Ian

> The biggest concern I have in the coming years is that of property tax. I have looked into New Hampshire and my research indicates that property taxes are expensive. I understand that there is no sales tax but I spend little and want to be more self sufficient and be able to live off earning little or in the case of an economic collapse live off of what I already own. Paying rent for my land in the form of property tax is a big factor for me. Many places in the country have cheaper property taxes. I can grow my own food and raise some chickens but I will always have to pay the property tax or lose my land.


I agree with Curtis.  We need activists who are willing to work to change things like the property tax.  What if you joined with others to refuse to pay it?  Are you sure everyone would lose their land in that case?

I wouldn't want to be anywhere else but besides hundreds of liberty-lovers.  Yes, the property taxes are bad, but some areas are cheaper than others.  In addition, NH is the lowest overall taxed place, and that will only improve over time as thousands more activists move in.

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## centure7

There is a very valuable work-around to the New Hampshire property tax problem. You can buy a tract of undeveloped land, which has very low property taxes, and then put one (or more) mobile homes and/or winterized RVs on it. Or, join someone who is already doing that. The only big obstacle is that the land is usually sold as large tracts. There are people in New Hampshire doing that right now . Schifference, feel free to PM me for details. As far as I know, your property taxes will remain very low for as long as nothing permanent is built on the land.

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## Schifference

Obviously property tax is a valid concern. Why PM for the information. Open forum discussion can educate all readers not one inquisitive individual. Presently I live in CT and will move one day. I want to move someplace where I can own a piece of property that can support my meager lifestyle and where I can be left pretty much alone to live as I see fit. I would entertain a mobile home and would also entertain purchasing a large tract as a co-owner or coop that could be divided into smaller parcels. From the little research I have done, it appears that it is cheaper to purchase a distressed improved property that has septic and well as opposed to an undeveloped tract. The costs of drilling water, putting in septic, and accessing electricity can be prohibitive.

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## centure7

Schifference, its sometimes inappropriate to share personal contact details over the internet. I'll go ahead and PM you some details.

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## Flash

http://forum.freestateproject.org/in...?topic=10146.0

I would like to repost something from the FreeStateProject forums:




> Starting this thread to answer the question raised elsewhere, inspired by my sig line.  I'm locking the thread to prevent hijacking.  Questions/Comments sent via private msg which are FAQs will be added as needed.  This is a work in progress, and I welcome feedback on it.
> 
> Why 20K is overkill 
> ----------------------------------
> 
> This isn't a new idea, and I don't claim credit for it.  I'm merely one proponent of it, and have taken to promoting it.  I know many in the FSP leadership realm agree with this, but it's not official FSP 'policy' (yet)
> 
> When Jason put his numbers together, and came up with 20K, they were based on projections and assumptions.  One of the assumptions was 1 million residents.  Another was that the activist threshold needed to trigger change, based on other real world places (like Quebec), would be around 2% (or 20,000 for 1,000,000 residents).  That number was meant to be a reasonable goal, and picking NH was an issue for some because it was (slightly) over 1 million already.
> 
> ...

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## mport1

The FSP has got some great media coverage recently:

MSNBC - Ron Paul backers head to first primary state en masse 
Slate - Ron Paul's Long Tail: The Free State Project
NationalJournal - For Some Ron Paul Backers, a New Motto: Go East, Young Man (and Woman)

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## abolitionist

The Free State Project ended when they failed to reach 20,000 members by the deadline.  The "project" was an ill-considered resume padder for that guy anyway.  I renounced my membership when they engineered the voting mechanism to cater to the non-libertarians who made up most of their membership... NH was chosen because of the voting method chosen, and because it was the closest state to the majority of members, not because it was the best state by objective criteria. 

Also, the FSP forums were overrun with clearly non-libertarians-- basically democrats and republicans who thought they were "libertarians" because they disagreed with their party on an issue or two.

Since the problem in the USA is the FEDERAL government, and since no state can overturn a federal law, and the FSP is avowedly opposed to taking any kind of serious action (such as secession or nullification) the FSP was an impossible idea from the beginning.

I regret spending any time on that project, and all of the effort it has sucked out of the lives of genuine libertarians is a tragedy. 

Supporting the FSP is putting energy into an impossible project, run by (or at least started by) non-libertarians, for an end that cannot, even if it were successful, produce an actual free state. 

And, at this point, it is a fraud because, by the bylaws the FSP was to dissolve when they failed to meet their goal of 20k members.

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## FTL_Ian

Clearly, the FSP is a failure and a waste of time, which is why hundreds have moved and thousands more are pledged.  

"Abolitionist" obviously doesn't know many free staters, as they tend to be the most hardcore liberty lovers I have ever encountered.  If they aren't libertarians, it's because they are voluntarists or anarchists.

Come to Porcfest if you want to know what this community is like: http://porcfest.com

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## newyearsrevolution08

sounds like a blast!

big ol piece of land

shipping containers on concrete post foundations ( is that considered permanent? ) to get around property tax issues if that would work.

earthships - that would be great out there!

now the question is, where is the best area in NH to buy 100+ acres of land without being killed by potential property taxes? Or better yet which areas are unincorporated and more lax on what you do with YOUR LAND in the live free or die state.

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## mport1

Given the recent actions of the GOP, I think this deserves a bump.  I hope that those who have not signed the pledge yet consider doing so.  

If you want to get involved in politics, do so on the local level in New Hampshire, where it can actually make a difference.  Taking over the GOP nationally is a MAJOR uphill battle.  Free State Project early movers are already seeing some success in New Hampshire with just 1,000 movers.  Imagine what could happen with 20 times the people!

Ron Paul has endorsed the FSP, so he thinks it is a good idea.  I'm guessing given recent events, he'd have an even stronger endorsement of it.

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## PierzStyx

Mostly because I like Idaho more than New Hampshire.

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## WilliamShrugged

> Mostly because I like Idaho more than New Hampshire.


Why? BSU and Potatoes??? State cares more about voting GOP and Mormon" than freedom. State has too many Taxes. I do however think its cool that they don't care about guns being given freely with a new car. But the state is on a losing trend whereas NH is not.

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## mport1

> Mostly because I like Idaho more than New Hampshire.


Would you prefer an extremely libertarian New Hampshire to Idaho?  If the FSP is successful, New Hampshire will be a far better place to live than anywhere else despite the cold and other drawbacks.

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## FreeHampshire

> This scenario happened to me a few times.   Walking down the streets of backwoods NH (Which is the entire NH) you will have a cop car pull over and question you.  
> 
> "Hey, how you doing?"
> "OK"
> "Going anywhere in particular?"
> "Yes, just walking through"
> "You need a ride to the border?"
> "No, I live here $#@!"
> "Oh, where is that?"
> ...



Lol that happens in my state too so I guess it'll be no difference once I move.

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## gerryb1

I was considering moving my residence to NH b/c I keep hearing it has no income tax.. which is true, however it has a 5% interest, and 5% dividend tax, as well as an 8.5% business income tax.

What's up with that?  Pretty much a deal killer

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## FTL_Ian

> I was considering moving my residence to NH b/c I keep hearing it has no income tax.. which is true, however it has a 5% interest, and 5% dividend tax, as well as an 8.5% business income tax.
> 
> What's up with that?  Pretty much a deal killer


This is a project to achieve liberty in our lifetime.  There are many reasons to move to NH, but if you are not planning on being an activist to affect change in tandem with others, you are not a prospect.  Good luck in your search to find the perfect destination.

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## gerryb1

> This is a project to achieve liberty in our lifetime.  There are many reasons to move to NH, but if you are not planning on being an activist to affect change in tandem with others, you are not a prospect.  Good luck in your search to find the perfect destination.


Just answering the question of the thread title...

I see a lot of people pimping NH as low taxes, low regulations etc. - but in my research that wasn't the case, thus - no reason to uproot and move on from current local efforts.  If there was an advantage to moving, more people would consider it.

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## KMX

I was going to join but after I seen what happen in the primary and also it seems like there are only a few real hardcore activist, plus Texas seems to be heading in the right track. IM going to stay in Texas for now but plan B is New Hampshire.

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## KevinR

If we can get Hawaii to succeed I'll gladly move there!

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## 69360

I came close. I'm closing on my house in Maine later this month. I looked in NH, but I wanted to live close to the coast and I couldn't afford seacoast NH and also didn't want to deal with all the massholes in that part of the state. Oh well, I still think northern New England will be a safe place to be if the SHTF and hey Ron did win Maine before all the BS.

----------

