# Lifestyles & Discussion > Bitcoin / Cryptocurrencies >  Bitcoin has a lot of potential.  Why aren't you using it?

## muh_roads

Need a prefix for Precious Bits.

In the face of all the bank fees and soon to be CC fees, we need avenues to get around this crap.  Plus you can avoid sales tax to boot.

If you are still hesitant on using Bitcoin I would be happy to answer any questions you have.  The word really needs to get out more.

I believe bitcoin has the potential to destroy fractional reserve banking.  It will have a staying power in the same way bit torrent couldn't be taken down either.  The banking system won't see it as a threat until it is too late so now is when people should be getting in.

Don't you ever wish you got involved with Apple or Microsoft stock in the very beginning?  Bitcoin is giving you that chance to get involved with something successful now.  And it does it based on the principles of scarcity, security and anonymity.

Buy things you need with BTC IMO.  Tell your merchant friends to start accepting it.  They avoid fees.  You avoid fees.  Everyone is happy.  Except the banksta's.

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## oyarde

I have no need, really , I guess.Only time I use a card is an occassional on line purchase, usually less than $50, and sometimes airline ticket.Use a credit card with no interest and an annual fee that comes to a couple bucksa month.

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## ItsTime

Because the second it actually can destroy fractional reserve banking is the time the bankers hack everything and zero them out.

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## amy31416

We do use it, not exclusively of course.

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## muh_roads

> Because the second it actually can destroy fractional reserve banking is the time the bankers hack everything and zero them out.


Armchair cryptographer analysis?

Whenever I hear statements like this, I think of all the things unqualified people make comments on.  Like the average pro-war yokel supporting Fox News.

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## seapilot

Sounds interesting. What backs a bitcoin? If nothing then how is it different than fiat?  How are more produced?

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## oyarde

I would probably try a small bit if I had a use. Diversity is a good thing.

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## Seraphim

No legal tender laws (and by extension income tax) and I would have all my money in gold/silver/bitcoin.

Since such laws still exist, the money I have left over goes to silver. Less speculatory then Bitcoin. Love Bitcoin though.

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## KCIndy

I've been interested in Bitcoin.  I am supportive of the concept of a free market currency unregulated by government.

I've even used Bitcoin a few times for some online purchases.

BUT.....

As a non-tech person, my biggest problem with Bitcoin is that it is a TREMENDOUS pain in the ass to buy into.  I tried buying some Bitcoins through Dwolla, and almost lost my cash.  I tried buying Bitcoins through BitInstant, and it was a colossal headache.

If Bitcoin is ever accepted by the masses, it's going to have to be simplified.  

Recently, I heard someone make the comparison that right now, Bitcoin is at the same stage as the internet was prior to Netscape.  I agree.  Like I said, I support the concept, but in terms of practical usage, it's got a long way to go.

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## tttppp

> I've been interested in Bitcoin.  I am supportive of the concept of a free market currency unregulated by government.
> 
> I've even used Bitcoin a few times for some online purchases.
> 
> BUT.....
> 
> As a non-tech person, my biggest problem with Bitcoin is that it is a TREMENDOUS pain in the ass to buy into.  I tried buying some Bitcoins through Dwolla, and almost lost my cash.  I tried buying Bitcoins through BitInstant, and it was a colossal headache.
> 
> If Bitcoin is ever accepted by the masses, it's going to have to be simplified.  
> ...


The need for simplification is the first thing I thought of when I first started researching Bitcoin. But as a person creating a better currency, I can advise you that Bitcoin is not a good investment.

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## muh_roads

> No legal tender laws (and by extension income tax) and I would have all my money in gold/silver/bitcoin.
> 
> Since such laws still exist, the money I have left over goes to silver. Less speculatory then Bitcoin. Love Bitcoin though.


Silver has a lot more baggage tied to it simply for the fact that the banks can paper short more silver than what exists in the world.

Bitcoin can't be cheated.  The price fluctuates based on actual purchasing/selling of the currency.  Not paper manipulation.

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## muh_roads

> I've been interested in Bitcoin.  I am supportive of the concept of a free market currency unregulated by government.
> 
> I've even used Bitcoin a few times for some online purchases.
> 
> BUT.....
> 
> As a non-tech person, my biggest problem with Bitcoin is that it is a TREMENDOUS pain in the ass to buy into.  I tried buying some Bitcoins through Dwolla, and almost lost my cash.  I tried buying Bitcoins through BitInstant, and it was a colossal headache.
> 
> If Bitcoin is ever accepted by the masses, it's going to have to be simplified.  
> ...


NFC (Near Field Communication), sorta like how the Galaxy III sends pics to other phones simply by tapping them together.  Soon NFC will be used with with your cellphones to accomplish local transactions that are not online.  Similar to Google Wallet.

Until then, buying bitcoins shouldn't be that tough.  Open an mt.gox account and tie your dwolla to it.  Really couldn't be more simple.  Just need patience while everything sets up.

Or you can use localbitcoins.com and meet with other libertarians to trade directly in person.  Bring your smartphone with you and people will help you out.

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## muh_roads

> Sounds interesting. What backs a bitcoin? If nothing then how is it different than fiat?  How are more produced?


Cryptography backs bitcoin.  Only 21 million can ever be produced.  They are mined from blocks.  Mining is a different industry altogether so I probably won't speak on it much.  But it has all the properties of a digital gold standard.  It is backed by the same fundamentals.

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## KCIndy

> NFC (Near Field Communication), sorta like how the Galaxy III sends pics to other phones simply by tapping them together.  Soon NFC will be used with with your cellphones to accomplish local transactions that are not online.  Similar to Google Wallet.
> 
> Until then, buying bitcoins shouldn't be that tough.  Open an mt.gox account and tie your dwolla to it.  Really couldn't be more simple.  Just need patience while everything sets up.
> 
> Or you can use localbitcoins.com and meet with other libertarians to trade directly in person.  Bring your smartphone with you and people will help you out.



Oh, I agree that spending bitcoins is easy, especially if you have a smartphone that handles Bitcoin apps.  (I don't!)  But I can still use an online wallet to send Bitcoins to another Bitcoin address, email, etc.

BUYING the bitcoins has been my problem.  

I opened a Dwolla account for the specific purpose of buying bitcoins.  Then I found out that it takes 3 to 4 business days to transfer money from my bank account to Dwolla.  Then, for several months last year, Dwolla was having some real issues about being a transfer medium for Bitcoins.  After that, Dwolla apparently began insisting on getting a copy of a government ID from its users, at which point I pretty well wrote off Dwolla.

I had heard good things about BitInstant.  "Get your Bitcoins in minutes!!" was the claim.  So I decided to try it.

BitInstant uses a service called ZipZap to transfer money from deposits at Moneygram locations to your preferred Bitcoin account.  (got it?)  So I tried putting through a transaction that way.  I put in an order, and was directed by BitInstant to print out the order (lucky I had a printer handy, If I had been on the road as I usually am, I would have been screwed!) and take it to the nearest MoneyGram location, where the "knowledgeable assistant" behind the counter would help me process the transaction.

Well, I hopped in my car, drove the two miles to the nearest MoneyGram location, set the printout on the counter, and politely asked if the service rep could process this cash deposit for me.

The lady behind the counter took the paper, read it, read it again, shook her head, and said she had no idea what I was asking for.  

I explained that I was trying to conduct a Bitcoin purchase through BitInstant via Moneygram.  

She told me she had never heard of Bitcoin, nor of BitInstant.  (She *had* heard of MoneyGram, fortunately!) She asked if I had made sure I wasn't getting ripped off in some sort of scam.

I assured her that both BitInstant and Bitcoin were legit, just difficult to figure out.  We both re-read the printout, and agreed on what looked like an account number that the money was supposed to go to.  I took a chance, told her to go ahead and make the transfer, and left for home, worried that I might have just pissed away two hundred bucks.  (Bitcoins were selling for around thirteen bucks at this point.)

Well, the Bitcoins DID get purchased and transferred to my online wallet, but it was frankly a nerve wracking process.   

I was also a bit disappointed by the fees involved.  By the time MoneyGram and ZipZap both got done taking a bite out of my cash, as well as a small fee paid for the transaction itself, I think I ended up with about $185 worth of Bitcoin for my $200 deposit.  

That's pretty steep, IMHO.

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## Indy Vidual

Bitcoin is an exciting project, and there is still "a long way to go".

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## Steve-in-NY

> (Bitcoins were selling for around thirteen bucks at this point.)
> 
> Well, the Bitcoins DID get purchased and transferred to my online wallet, but it was frankly a nerve wracking process.   
> 
> I was also a bit disappointed by the fees involved.  By the time MoneyGram and ZipZap both got done taking a bite out of my cash, as well as a small fee paid for the transaction itself, I think I ended up with about $185 worth of Bitcoin for my $200 deposit.  
> 
> That's pretty steep, IMHO.


True, but if its any consolation, They're at $20.55 USD each right now.

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## 2young2vote

> True, but if its any consolation, They're at $20.55 USD each right now.


Does the bitcoin cost of an item fluctuate with the value of the currency?  In other words, is the cost updated in real time like you would see on a precious metals website?

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## brandon

My bank doesn't charge me any fees and I'd rather not keep my savings in something as volatile as bitcoin.  100%+ swings in a year is not okay

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## Zippyjuan

Is making purchases using bitcoin cheaper than making a purchase with a credit card? The credit card is certainly easier and accepted at more places.  Perhaps an example of a transaction including the costs involved?  What sorts of things can you buy with them?  Are they priced in dollars first and then converted to bitcoin prices by the seller or is there a different bitcoin price?  Thanks.

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## opal

I tried.. I failed at setting up a wallet then trying to put something in it.  Instructions at the time suggested I *go to* some financial institution to make a deposit to my bitcoin wallet.  First.. I live 9 miles from the nearest traffic light - 15 to my credit union (one way) and whomever's site I was on was suggesting either wachovia or bank of America *gag* - which I don't even think exist in our little town.. Anyway
first.. having something on my computer exclusively is a little scary - things break.. I don't back up often enough.. basically - $#@! happens. 
The other thing that just stopped me in my tracks is that I was using the Tor browser and the thing kept timing out on me.. refresh/relog repeat.. I finally tossed in the towel.. oh.. and not taking a paypal account for payment defeats any ease of use for me.  
The need to actually go somewhere (which for sure will be recorded) and do an in person transaction was the breaking point for me.

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## hazek

> Is making purchases using bitcoin cheaper than making a purchase with a credit card?



It is for many many items out of the more than 500.000 items you can buy from here: www.bitcoinstore.com (takes exclusively bitcoins)

I ordered something from them and got it as advertised, was beyond easy and simple to buy and cheaper than what I'd pay locally with fiat.

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## mczerone

> Sounds interesting. What backs a bitcoin? If nothing then how is it different than fiat?  How are more produced?


Nothing "backs" bitcoin except for it's usefulness in making instantaneous, free-of-charge, and potentially anonymous internet transactions.

It is different than a fiat currency because no central agency is mandating it - that's what "fiat" means.

There are a specific number that are possible to be "mined" (discovered by brute-force cryptographic searching) - but that number doesn't matter because it is a digital currency that is infinitely divisible. You can pay someone 0.000000001 bitcoin for a product if they become scarce enough relative to the goods that are being purchased.

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## mczerone

> I tried.. I failed at setting up a wallet then trying to put something in it.  Instructions at the time suggested I *go to* some financial institution to make a deposit to my bitcoin wallet.  First.. I live 9 miles from the nearest traffic light - 15 to my credit union (one way) and whomever's site I was on was suggesting either wachovia or bank of America *gag* - which I don't even think exist in our little town.. Anyway
> first.. having something on my computer exclusively is a little scary - things break.. I don't back up often enough.. basically - $#@! happens. 
> The other thing that just stopped me in my tracks is that I was using the Tor browser and the thing kept timing out on me.. refresh/relog repeat.. I finally tossed in the towel.. oh.. and not taking a paypal account for payment defeats any ease of use for me.  
> The need to actually go somewhere (which for sure will be recorded) and do an in person transaction was the breaking point for me.


From what I've heard, you can use Moneygram to purchase through a few vendors, and you don't have to provide ID with the name you put on the card - it's just used to verify the transaction.

And even if "they" record you buying bitcoins, you can transfer them to a second encrypted wallet and the bitcoins are no longer traceable to you.

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## Steve-in-NY

> Does the bitcoin cost of an item fluctuate with the value of the currency?  In other words, is the cost updated in real time like you would see on a precious metals website?


Yes.

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## Steve-in-NY

> Is making purchases using bitcoin cheaper than making a purchase with a credit card? The credit card is certainly easier and accepted at more places.  Perhaps an example of a transaction including the costs involved?  What sorts of things can you buy with them?  Are they priced in dollars first and then converted to bitcoin prices by the seller or is there a different bitcoin price?  Thanks.


Usually bitcoin to dollar exchange thing. ... and its cheaper than using a credit card because there are no fees involved whatsoever.
A far as what can you buy? A LOT (see: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade) but its not so much WHAT as much as FROM WHO right now as many places dont accept it, but it is gaining traction... in fact I believe I recall hearing about someone working on a bitcoin ATM recently...

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## KCIndy

> From what I've heard, you can use Moneygram to purchase through a few vendors, and you don't have to provide ID with the name you put on the card - it's just used to verify the transaction.
> 
> And even if "they" record you buying bitcoins, you can transfer them to a second encrypted wallet and the bitcoins are no longer traceable to you.



The MoneyGram location I went to demanded ID, but maybe I just looked shifty to them!   

But you're right, after you get them in a wallet online, you can always do a transfer or two and I would assume that would mask any trail, at least to a certain  degree.  Of course, the big question is this:  If the Feds start documenting who is buying bitcoins at these walk-in locations, does that put the bitcoin purchaser on a "watch" list of some sort?

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## ItsTime

> Armchair cryptographer analysis?
> 
> Whenever I hear statements like this, I think of all the things unqualified people make comments on.  Like the average pro-war yokel supporting Fox News.


Yup. Never happened before. http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/te...heisted-122726




> Hear about the $500,000 heist of online currency this month? Not only was the digital dough stolen, the theft was followed by a major hack at an exchange website that led to a precipitous drop in the currency's actual value.

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## Nic

It's not relevant for my lifestyle at the moment. When I can pay for my gas or go to the grocery store and pay in bit coin, then I'll look into it. Until then, I'll continue to invest in tangible assets.

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## presence

I need some new shocks for my truck... can I get them with bitcoins?

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## oyarde

> I need some new shocks for my truck... can I get them with bitcoins?


I may be able to help  , tell me what you need I can get you a quote. less shipping. I accept silver , or FRN's .

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## muh_roads

> Yup. Never happened before. http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/te...heisted-122726


You don't blame the entire commodity of gold just because a gold vault was robbed.  derp.

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## Tod

Would Bitcoin survive an EMP attack?

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## Appalachia

I have two questions:
- To what is Bitcoin linked to? (to gold?)
- It seems you can run a server to be part of the Bitcoin server load and storage. But while you do that you "mine Bitcoins". Doesn't that inflate the currency?

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## ItsTime

> You don't blame the entire commodity of gold just because a gold vault was robbed.  derp.


The point is the second bit coin becomes a real threat the bankers will hack the exchanges and zero them out. You cant hack the gold in my house.

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## S.Shorland

Erm,it doesn't exist.

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## hazek

> It's not relevant for my lifestyle at the moment. When I can pay for my gas or go to the grocery store and pay in bit coin, then I'll look into it. Until then, I'll continue to invest in tangible assets.


Let's see how your objection sounds when I substitue bitcoins with gold:
It's not relevant for my lifestyle at the moment. When I can pay for my gas or go to the grocery store and pay in gold, then I'll look into it. Until then, I'll continue to invest in tangible assets.

How idiotic, am I right?




> Yup. Never happened before. http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/te...heisted-122726


When an online bank gets hacked, is that a fault of the dollar? I mean how idiotic can you get?




> Would Bitcoin survive an EMP attack?


If it's not global - yes, if it is, well then, Bitcoin is the least of your problems. And for $#@! sake, seriously? An emp? Why are you worried about them? Is it because we had oh so many go off on a daily basis? Talk about irrational response to something you don't understand.




> I have two questions:
> - To what is Bitcoin linked to? (to gold?)
> - It seems you can run a server to be part of the Bitcoin server load and storage. But while you do that you "mine Bitcoins". Doesn't that inflate the currency?


To what is gold linked to?

There are no servers in the peer to peer Bitcoin network, I mean you can participate but you do so equally as can anyone else. And yes, if you validate transactions via a cryptographic process there is a reward and it is how all bitcoins will be issued, and yes, while they are being issued their supply is inflating. It is fixed however, and there will never be more than 21mil, 10.746M have already been issued which is more than half which is why the reward for helping secure the network has already halved once.




> The point is the second bit coin becomes a real threat the bankers will hack the exchanges and zero them out. You cant hack the gold in my house.


They can't hack the gold in your house? Really? I seem to remember something about confiscation and an artificially suppressed price through a fractional paper system. Good luck with just your gold when you need to spend it and it is illegal to do so.

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## hazek

It's really frustrating to see all of you uneducated idiots rejecting a solution just because you can't understand it.


But that's ok, Bitcoin plows on.. with or without you. And one day, when a good chunk of world finance is done with it, you will have wished you listened to the more educated peers around you who were trying to tell you about this amazing new invention that you could have used and yet were to cowardly to even research. I mean I'd be perfectly happy if you did only that and brought some valid concerns and then declined to dabble in it instead of crack pot EMPs and local grocery stores.

But no... you just stick with your fiat dollars getting robbed through inflation and taxation, I'll enjoy my gold/silver and bitcoins!

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## matt0611

What's stopping there being a "bitcoin 2" that acts exactly like bitcoin? 

Bitcoin is interesting but I wouldn't save in bitcoins. I would much rather save in gold. I can hold on to gold and they can't print it or create it digitally on a computer.

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## hazek

> What's stopping there being a "bitcoin 2" that acts exactly like bitcoin? 
> 
> Bitcoin is interesting but I wouldn't save in bitcoins. I would much rather save in gold. I can hold on to gold and they can't print it or create it digitally on a computer.


No one is telling you otherwise. I definitely keep the majority of my savings in gold.

But you can certainly use Bitcoin for your online purchases or to settle debts between your libertarian friends.

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## Nic

> Let's see how your objection sounds when I substitue bitcoins with gold:
> It's not relevant for my lifestyle at the moment. When I can pay for my gas or go to the grocery store and pay in gold, then I'll look into it. Until then, I'll continue to invest in tangible assets.
> 
> How idiotic, am I right?


No. What's idiotic is for you to insinuate that it's idiotic to not be interested in a completely useless medium of exchange simply because you are interested in it.

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## Luciconsort

holds no value for me. when the lights go out you got nothin.... except your hand.

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## muh_roads

> I have two questions:
> - To what is Bitcoin linked to? (to gold?)
> - It seems you can run a server to be part of the Bitcoin server load and storage. But while you do that you "mine Bitcoins". Doesn't that inflate the currency?


Bitcoin is linked to the security of its network and protected from any fraudulent bitcoins being introduced into the system.  You can't fake a purchase.  Mining machines across the globe check & double check to make sure bitcoins used in a transaction are real.

The spot price fluctuates based on REAL bids & asks.  Not paper manipulation that silver/gold is exposed to.

Yes mining is increasing the supply, but it has already passed its first milestone called "halving day".  That means only 25 coins per block can be mined now instead of 50.  Halving day happens every 3-4 years until 21 million are mined out.  After that point no more can be produced.

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## muh_roads

> The point is the second bit coin becomes a real threat the bankers will hack the exchanges and zero them out. You cant hack the gold in my house.


You can't hack bitcoin unless you command more processing power than the entire network itself.  Right now bitcoin has more processing power devoted to it than any other system in the world because of the sheer amount of equipment running the software across the globe.

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## muh_roads

> holds no value for me. when the lights go out you got nothin.... except your hand.


This I cannot argue with.  Electricity & internet is needed.

If one is so inclined to live their life like a scared rat in a cage until they die, then...yeah...bitcoin is not for them.  I personally don't believe in the economic apocalypse happening at any point in my lifetime or yours.

It took the west this long to own 60% of the world.  There is still another 40% left to go.  The elite still live in the developed world where we do.  It is in their best interest to suck everyone else dry before turning on their own countrymen.

That is just my opinion.  All I offer is the chance for people to get involved with something that is just starting out.  Bitcoin, IMO, is like a second chance at getting involved with something like Apple or Microsoft.  It has all the fundamentals of a digital gold standard.  And a lot of people are using it as evidenced by the daily volume and how well the spot price has stabilized and continues to grow.

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## muh_roads

> What's stopping there being a "bitcoin 2" that acts exactly like bitcoin? 
> 
> Bitcoin is interesting but I wouldn't save in bitcoins. I would much rather save in gold. I can hold on to gold and they can't print it or create it digitally on a computer.


There isn't anyone stopping a new currency from being created.  It has already happened.  Namecoin, Litecoin, Devcoin, etc...

When there is a fork in the open source code, a new currency is created.  The sheer amount of volume and interest in BTC over any other digital currency secures its place.  And new versions can be implemented to compete with anything that actually poses a challenge.

Bitcoin is trusted because it is open source.  Therefore the code of an open source competing currency can be easily assimilated into the bitcoin code.  An attempt at a competing currency that is not open source will not go very far because people wouldn't trust it.

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## muh_roads

The simple fact here is that at a spot price of $20+ it is a very real thing.  And the fact that only 21 million can ever be produced should excite people.

BTC is divisible by 8.  0.00000001 btc = one satoshi (named after the username of its original creator)

There is a chance that one satoshi could be worth $1 some day.  21 million coins spread across an entire globe of people is a very amazing thing if you really think about it.

Also diversification is a good thing.  I'm not asking anyone to completely move their metal into btc.  I still hold real physical metal of course.

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## heavenlyboy34

I still don't know enough to be confident in it, and don't have spare FRNs to dabble around with.  Maybe someday I'll try it.

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## hazek

> You can't hack bitcoin unless you command more processing power than the entire network itself.  Right now bitcoin has more processing power devoted to it than any other system in the world because of the sheer amount of equipment running the software across the globe.


You can't hack Bitcoin, period.

All that having more processing power than the entire network allows you to do is maybe double spend some of your own bitcoins and maybe temporarily block transaction. For the former it's hard to see how spending so much money could ever make it worth it just to double spend.. and for the second there is already a solution planed in case it's needed: http://gavintech.blogspot.com/2012/0...51-attack.html

And this is just about the only major weakness Bitcoin has and is known to everyone: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses

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## muh_roads

Glad to hear about the contingency plans to prevent against the 51% attack.  I wasn't aware of Gavin saying that.  Now there is virtually nothing to be concerned about if a government tried to pull something like that off.

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## muh_roads

Yep...pretty secure I'd say...

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