# News & Current Events > World News & Affairs >  Israel, Oasis of Stability & Western Values in the Middle East

## FrankRep

The present turmoil in the Middle East has been brewing for years and we are told that the youthful populations in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Jordan, and Syria want "democracy," but what kind of democracy?

*Israel, Oasis of Stability & Western Values in the Middle East*


Sam Blumenfeld | The New American 
05 April 2011


It is quite obvious that the present turmoil in the Middle East has been brewing for years and has finally erupted into riots, demonstrations, and revolutions. The youthful populations in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Jordan, and Syria want change. But what kind of change? We really don’t know. We hear that they want “democracy,“ but what kind of democracy? In 1933, Hitler was elected democratically. More recently, the Palestinians elected the leaders of Hamas democratically. The result: a declaration of war by Hamas against Israel, even after Israel had voluntarily destroyed every Jewish town in Gaza and turned all of the land over to the Palestinians The worst fear is that the Muslim Brotherhood will take power democratically in some or all of these countries and join with the Mullahs of Iran to wage a genocidal war against Israel. Meanwhile, the Jewish state is being urged by liberals and leftists to make concessions to the Palestinians in order to achieve the two-state solution to the dispute between the two peoples. But the Iranians control the Hezbollah terrorists on Israel’s northern Lebanese border and they control Hamas in Gaza on Israel’s southern border. Will an independent Palestine in the West Bank also fall under Iran’s sway?

And while every country around Israel is in political turmoil, Israel itself is enjoying a period of stability and calm. During the last two years it has had the largest number of tourist visitors in its history. Its Arab population of over a million is not rioting for change. In fact, they are the beneficiaries of the calm and stability that characterizes the Jewish state. Not very many of them want to live under Palestinian rule. Many Arabs are trying to move into Jewish neighborhoods in order to remain Israeli citizens. Most of the Arabs in East Jerusalem want to retain their Israeli citizenship.

But with Israel’s enemies chafing at the bit to launch a genocidal war against the Jewish state, the strong unequivocal support of the American people is more desperately needed than ever before.

Meanwhile, Reverend John C. Hagee, pastor of the Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas, decided that it was time for Christians to come to the defense of Israel, and he along with other Christian pastors launched Christians United for Israel on February 7, 2006. In five short years CUFI has grown into a powerful pro-Zionist organization with over a half-million members. In July 2011, CUFI will hold its sixth annual Summit in Washington, D.C.

Significantly, CUFI has launched a petition to the UN demanding that the next time Mahmoud Ahmadinejad appears before that international body, it must not be as an honored guest before the United Nations General Assembly, but as a criminal in the dock of the International Criminal Court for the crime of inciting genocide.

Of course, this is a demand that should have been made by the United States and other supposedly democratic states when the Iranian dictator began threatening to wipe Israel off the map. Israel is the only member of the United Nations which has been threatened with physical annihilation by another UN member. Indeed, during the reign of the Shah, Israel and Iran enjoyed the friendliest of relations. But the Mullahs are Islamic fanatics who are leading the Iranian people into a war that none of them want. The average Iranian does not want to exterminate the Israelis. But neither did the average German want to kill millions of Jews. But how do you stop fanatic leaders?

This is a problem that the Western nations will have to face sooner or later. Israel, of course, is planning its own offensive-defensive strategy. It has a very capable military force, but it has never faced such well-armed potential threats. And although Christians United for Israel are providing Israel with great moral support, they don’t have any divisions.

But Israel probably provides the United States with more than enough return for its aid, although it is becoming more and more evident that Israel would be better off without that aid. For example, the vice president of General Dynamics, which produces the F16 fighter jets, has stated that Israel is responsible for 600 improvements in the plane's systems, modifications estimated to be worth billions of dollars, which spared dozens of research and development years.

When Alexander Haig was commander of NATO forces, he stated that he was pro-Israeli because Israel is the largest American aircraft﻿ carrier in the world that cannot be sunk, does not carry even one American soldier, and is located in a critical region for American national security.

General George Keegan,﻿ former head of U.S. Air Force Intelligence has publicly declared that “Israel is worth five CIA’s.” He further stated that between 1974 and 1990, Israel received $18.3 billion in U.S. military grants. During the same period Israel provided the U.S. with $50-80 billion in intelligence, research and development savings, and Soviet weapons systems captured and transferred to the U.S.

Meanwhile, CUFI has gotten more than 2,000 churches in over 50 countries to stand in solidarity with Israel through Christians United for Israel Sunday on May 15, 2011. From the largest cities to the smallest towns, from mega-churches in America to underground churches in China, Hagee declares, “Christians will come together to express their love and support for Israel.”

Pastor Hagee has further said, “Today, as we watch nations collapse and churn with unrest across the Middle East and Israel's security and safety wanes, we stand on our faith that God is the defender of Israel. But let us also appreciate that many Americans have long taken for granted and have never seized what others have died for or have never known -- access to our nation's leaders. By standards of measure of most any other country it is nothing less than a royal position.

“We can make a history-shaping impact simply by not leaving it for others to do, simply by seizing the influence within our reach. The US - Israel relationship has never been more critical than it is today. If you are able to join us ... you will be part of an extremely relevant, life changing and historic mission. For who knows, perhaps we have been raised up for such a time as this?”

The sense of urgency that Pastor Hagee conveys, reflects the sense of urgency that our government should have about threats from Iran and its allies. Iran has also singled out the United States as its major enemy, and unless we are able to remove the religious fanatics from power, we may face a world awash in blood and destruction.

Nothing was done to stop Hitler until it was too late. Millions had to die and a whole continent was ravaged before that madman could be stopped. Are we destined to go through that same horrible scenario because of the weakness of the West? We shall know soon enough.


*SOURCE:*
http://thenewamerican.com/opinion/sa...he-middle-east

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## FrankRep

> But Israel probably provides the United States with more than enough return for its aid, although it is becoming more and more evident that Israel would be better off without that aid.






Israeli Zionists and economists agree with Rand Paul and Ron Paul that US Foreign Aid is bad for Israel.

*Israeli Economists Agree with Rand Paul: End Foreign Aid*


Daniel Sayani | The New American 
07 February 2011


*Related Articles:*

*Sen. Rand Paul: End All Foreign Aid*
Tea Party favorite and freshman Kentucky Senator Rand Paul may have crossed a third rail of politics by suggesting the federal government zero out all foreign aid, even to Israel, America's largest foreign aid recipient over the past 30 years.
*Senator Rand Paul Defends Israel*
Senator Rand Paul's stance against foreign aid for countries including Israel has raised controversy. However, this must be evaluated in the context of his broader pro-Israel policy.

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## Acala

"This is a problem that the Western nations will have to face sooner or later."

No, it isn't.  It is a problem Israel may have to face.  I wish them luck.  And anyone who wants to personally go help them, well, good luck to you also.

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## doodle

That's quite a different assessment than those of some UK MPs:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post1914015

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## Toureg89

why are we supposed to care what kind of "democracies" they become?

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## TexanRudeBoy

"But Israel probably provides the United States with more than enough return for its aid"


LOL!!! Such as?

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## BuddyRey

If the people of Israel want money that badly, let them ask us nicely (i.e. without the guns of the U.S. government pointed at us).

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## doodle

> *Israel, Oasis of Stability & Western Values in the Middle East*




*Janet Napolitano in Israel to observe airport security*
 January 3rd, 2011 1:01 pm ET 

LINK

We are getting there gradually still have ways to go before christian girls in America are protocoled the way they are in the Oasis of Western values:




This Christian zionist man living in Israel and whose leaked videos have been causing a stir among Christian zionist circles all over sheds some light on Israel and how it is an Oasis of Stability & Western Values. There is bit of tendency to ramble in early part of his video but keep in mind that the man has been under house arrest apparently for  preaching "Jesus loves you". Ladies and gentlemen, here is Eddy:




Then there is this shockwave from the oasis of modernity and western values:

http://maxblumenthal.com/2011/03/48-...or-incitement/





> * Published 13:04 07.12.10
> 
> *Top rabbis move to forbid renting homes to Arabs, say 'racism originated in the Torah'*
> 
> Dozens of Israel's municipal chief rabbis signed on to the ruling, which comes just months after the chief rabbi of Safed initiated a call urging Jews to refrain from renting or selling apartments to non-Jews.
> 
> By Chaim Levinson
> 
> A number of leading rabbis who signed on to a religious ruling to forbid renting homes to gentiles – a move particularly aimed against Arabs – defended their decision on Tuesday with the declaration that the land of Israel belongs to the Jews.


LINK

*Caution: Following video is display of some tax payers funded "western values":*








> *Israel Honors Jewish Terrorists Who Attacked US*
> 4-2-5
> 
> In 1954, Israeli agents working in Egypt planted bombs in several buildings, including a United States diplomatic facility, and left evidence behind implicating Arabs as the culprits. The ruse would have worked, had not one of the bombs detonated prematurely, allowing the Egyptians to capture and identify one of the bombers, which in turn led to the round up of an Israeli spy ring.
> 
> Some of the spies were from Israel, while others were recruited from the local Jewish population. Israel responded to the scandal with claims in the media that there was no spy ring, that it was all a hoax perpetrated by "anti-Semites". But as the public trial progressed, it was evident that Israel had indeed been behind the bombing. Eventually, Israeli's Defense Minister Pinhas Lavon was brought down by the scandal, although it appears that he was himself the victim of a frame-up by the real authors of the bombing project, code named "Operation Susannah."


LINK

LINK


*Vigilantes Patrol For Jewish Women Dating Arab Men*

Throughout Israel, young Jewish men are forming vigilante groups to end interracial relationships between Arab men and Jewish women, which are occurring with increased frequency as Jewish settlements dig deeper into Arab territory. The vigilantes say Arabs lure Jewish women with money and "bad boy" personalities.
LINK




> *Chicago's sister-city in Israel has hotline to inform on Jewish women who date Arab men* 
> 
> By Slavoj Zizek
> ABC Religion and Ethics | 5 Mar 2011
> 
> *Two years ago, the city of Petah Tikva created a hotline that parents and friends can use to inform on Jewish women who mix with Arab men. The women are then treated as pathological cases and sent to a psychologist.*
> 
> In 2008, the southern city of Kiryat Gat launched a program in its schools to warn Jewish girls about the dangers of dating local Bedouin men. The girls were shown a video called Sleeping with the Enemy, which describes mixed couples as an "unnatural phenomenon."
> 
> ...

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## GuerrillaXXI

> "But Israel probably provides the United States with more than enough return for its aid"
> 
> 
> LOL!!! Such as?


Such as getting our military and economic secrets stolen through espionage; having our so-called leaders arms twisted into using "our" military to fight wars on Israel's behalf, as in Iraq; having many nations in the Muslim world hate us, putting our long-term national security at risk; and, of course, the _moral satisfaction_ we get of knowing that US-made weapons are being used to snipe Arab school children, drop bombs on the dirt-floor homes of starving refugees, impose blockades that deny basic necessities such as food and medicine, and generally making their lives so dangerous and miserable that they'll leave the land that Israel wants to annex.

If America got anything out of its subservience to the Zionist agenda, then the Israelis wouldn't need to have AIPAC, ZOA, WZO, JINSA, and plenty of other lobbying groups keeping a stranglehold on US elected officials and forcing them to see everything through Zionist lenses.

As the 2012 elections approach, we will see the same thing we see in every presidential election: all the major candidates falling over themselves in a competition to see who can kiss up to Israel the most. If America's foreign policy were any more under the control of Israel, we would have to start calling Tel Aviv our capital.

Incidentally, this is one of the reasons the neocons hate Ron Paul so much: he is loyal only to _this_ country, not to Israel or any other foreign state, and he is opposed to the sort of non-defensive wars that Zionist extremists want the US to fight for Israel. Show me a hardcore "conservative" critic of Dr. Paul, and I'll show you a hardcore Israel loyalist.

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## robert68

> Israel, Oasis of Stability & Western Values in the Middle East


And Israelis hunt kosher flying pigs.

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## doodle

> Sam Blumenfeld |The New American
> 05 April 2011


So Sammy, would you support  US becoming a modern human rights democracy like Israel?

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## IceForester

Until Israel becomes a non-racist secular state for all citizens regardless of ethnicity and religion, it will be a proto-fascist colonial racist apartheid state. 
Like many foreign aid rackets, a lot of aid for Israel is thinly disguised corporate welfare, supported by a corrupt plutocratic political system(best government money "can buy"), and payed for by US taxpayers (who also in the end pay for the propaganda they are subjected to and for the bribes that go against their own interests).

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## FrankRep

> Until Israel becomes a non-racist secular state for all citizens regardless of ethnicity and religion, it will be a proto-fascist colonial racist apartheid state.


Once the Palestinian militants stop doing suicide bombings, peace may be achievable.

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## eduardo89

I think the thread title is some sort of joke.

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## ExPatPaki

> Once the Palestinian militants stop doing suicide bombings, peace may be achievable.


When was the most recent suicide bombing?

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## FrankRep

> When was the most recent suicide bombing?


Here's the latest Bombing (that I know of) by Palestinian militants.


*April 7, 2011*

*Palestinian Missile Hits Israeli School Bus; Israel Retaliates*
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ael-Retaliates

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## ExPatPaki

> Here's the latest Bombing (that I know of) by Palestinian militants.
> 
> 
> *Palestinian Missile Hits Israeli School Bus; Israel Retaliates*
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ael-Retaliates


Yes, suicide bombings have pretty much ended. Gaza is put into an illegal blockade by Israel, and anything the Gazans do in response to the blockade is completely justifiable.

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## FrankRep

> Yes, suicide bombings have pretty much ended. Gaza is put into an illegal blockade by Israel, and anything the Gazans do in response to the blockade is completely justifiable.


Israel's response will be "completely justifiable" as well.

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## ExPatPaki

> Israel's response will be "completely justifiable" as well.


Right, because Israel doesn't want peace.

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## eduardo89

> Israel's response will be "completely justifiable" as well.


Yup seems completey justifiable:




> *Israel army use white phosphorous in latest attack on Gaza*
> 
> _Medical examinations point to the continued use of prohibited weapons by Israel in Gaza
> Saleh Naami , Monday 18 Apr 2011
> http://english.ahram.org.eg/~/NewsCo...st-attack.aspx_
> 
> 
> Ihab Keheal, head of the justice department’s medical examiner’s office in the Gaza Strip, has stated that examinations conducted by his office have unveiled evidence indicating that the Israeli army used white phosphorous and other internationally prohibited weapons in its latest operation in Gaza.
> 
> ...

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## FrankRep

> Right, because Israel doesn't want peace.




Palestinian militants attack Israel with bombs and then complain Israel doesn't want peace.

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## ExPatPaki

> Palestinian militants attack Israel with bombs and then complain Israel doesn't want peace.





Israel steals Palestinian land and then complains that Palestinians don't want peace.

Israel kills Palestinian children and then complains that Palestinians don't want peace.

Israel blockades Gaza and then complains that Palestinians don't want peace.

Why do you hate Palestinian Christians and Muslims so much Frank? Is it because of your psychological and insecurity issues?

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## Rosenzweig

The part where he saids we (Israel) are better off without economic aid from the US is correct. If anything it only enrages Middle Eastern countries and associates Israel with American policies. Radicals arose as blow back in the aftermath of US Interventionist Policies being enacted, and radicals being extremely ignorant and anti semetic in many cases is a _side effect_. At least that's my opinion. While radicals arising in the Middle East is great for a sense of Arab unity and a response to US terrorism in these countries, they create new enemies with people they should have no problem getting along with. The aid only worsens it.

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## FrankRep

> Israel steals Palestinian land and then complain that Palestinians don't want peace.


*The British owned Palestine before 1948 (Israel)*


*The British Mandate for Palestine*, also known as the Palestine Mandate and The British Mandate of Palestine, was a legal commission for the administration of Palestine, the draft of which was formally confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations on 24 July 1922 and which came into effect on 26 September 1923.[1] The document was based on the principles contained in Article 22 of the draft Covenant of the League of Nations and the San Remo Resolution of 25 April 1920 by the principal Allied and associated powers after the First World War.[1] The mandate formalised British rule in the Southern part of Ottoman Syria from 1923–1948. With the League of Nations' consent on 16 September 1922, the UK divided the Mandate territory into two administrative areas, *Palestine, under direct British rule*, and autonomous Transjordan, under the rule of the Hashemite family from the Kingdom of Hejaz in present-day Saudi Arabia, in accordance with the McMahon Correspondence of 1915.[1] Following the 1922 Transjordan memorandum, the area east of the Jordan river became exempt from the Mandate provisions concerning the Jewish National Home.[1][2]

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## ExPatPaki

> *The British owned Palestine before 1948 (Israel)*
> 
> 
> *The British Mandate for Palestine*, also known as the Palestine Mandate and The British Mandate of Palestine, was a legal commission for the administration of Palestine, the draft of which was formally confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations on 24 July 1922 and which came into effect on 26 September 1923.[1] The document was based on the principles contained in Article 22 of the draft Covenant of the League of Nations and the San Remo Resolution of 25 April 1920 by the principal Allied and associated powers after the First World War.[1] The mandate formalised British rule in the Southern part of Ottoman Syria from 1923–1948. With the League of Nations' consent on 16 September 1922, the UK divided the Mandate territory into two administrative areas, *Palestine, under direct British rule*, and autonomous Transjordan, under the rule of the Hashemite family from the Kingdom of Hejaz in present-day Saudi Arabia, in accordance with the McMahon Correspondence of 1915.[1] Following the 1922 Transjordan memorandum, the area east of the Jordan river became exempt from the Mandate provisions concerning the Jewish National Home.[1][2]


Israel stole Palestinian land by killing innocent Palestinian men women and children according to Murray Rothbard and still steals Palestinian land.

But since you hate Palestinians you support the theft of their land and homes by Israel.

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## eduardo89

Neither side is completely blame free. But Israel should be criticized when it crosses the line.

It has illegally occupied the West Bank, building settlements which are blatant attempts at annexing Palestinian land.They have annexed the Golan Heights, which is also illegally occupied since 1967.They enforce an illegal blockade on Gaza, which affects civilians the most.They use disproportionate amount of force and show little to no regard for minimizing collateral civilian deaths.They have an arsenal of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons, while refusing UN inspectors or signing on to the Non-Proliferation Treaty.They use cluster bombs in civilian areas.They have built an illegal separation barrier which cuts off many Palestinians from their land.They have an incredibly discriminatory and racist citizenship law.They have a huge amount of racist and extremists in government.They illegally occupied parts of Lebanon for over 20 years.

The list can go on further...


That's not to say the Palestinians haven't done their fair share of bad things, but when you look at it, Israel is the true oppressor here.


I find it strange that on this forum we talk about standing up to tyranny and that in the face of oppression and violations of our God-given rights, we must revolt. That's exactly what the Palestinians are doing. They are fighting their oppressors who have stolen their land without compensation, expelled them from their homeland and now hold them hostage. There is an obvious double standard when it comes to Israel. It's not OK when the US government does it, but Israel has the right to do it?

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## eduardo89

> *The British owned Palestine before 1948 (Israel)*
> 
> 
> *The British Mandate for Palestine*, also known as the Palestine Mandate and The British Mandate of Palestine, was a legal commission for the *administration* of Palestine, the draft of which was formally confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations on 24 July 1922 and which came into effect on 26 September 1923.[1] The document was based on the principles contained in Article 22 of the draft Covenant of the League of Nations and the San Remo Resolution of 25 April 1920 by the principal Allied and associated powers after the First World War.[1] The mandate formalised British rule in the Southern part of Ottoman Syria from 1923–1948. With the League of Nations' consent on 16 September 1922, the UK divided the Mandate territory into two administrative areas, *Palestine, under direct British rule*, and autonomous Transjordan, under the rule of the Hashemite family from the Kingdom of Hejaz in present-day Saudi Arabia, in accordance with the McMahon Correspondence of 1915.[1] Following the 1922 Transjordan memorandum, the area east of the Jordan river became exempt from the Mandate provisions concerning the Jewish National Home.[1][2]



Britain did not OWN Palestine. They were given charge of administering it. It was never legally part of the United Kingdom, nor an Oversees Territory, nor a Dominion, nor a Colony, nor a Protectorate.

And even if Britain did have legal control over it, that does not give the Israeli's the right to confiscate land and expel hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. I believe the correct term for that is ethnic cleansing.

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## ExPatPaki

> It's not OK when the US government does it, but Israel has the right to do it?


That's because Frank hates Palestinians (both Muslim and Christian) and supports the killing of innocent Palestinians (including pregnant women) by Israelis.

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## ExPatPaki

> I believe the correct term for that is ethnic cleansing.


It's okay according to Frank if the victims of ethnic cleansing are brown and Muslim. He hates Muslims because they all follow Sharia.

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## FrankRep

> Britain did not OWN Palestine. They were given charge of administering it. It was never legally part of the United Kingdom, nor an Oversees Territory, nor a Dominion, nor a Colony, nor a Protectorate.
> 
> And even if Britain did have legal control over it, that does not give the Israeli's the right to confiscate land and expel hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. I believe the correct term for that is ethnic cleansing.


I guess you can try to make the argument that League of Nations owned Palestine, but British had control of the land.

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## eduardo89

> I guess you can try to make the argument that League of Nations owned Palestine, but British had control of the land.


But the Palestinians who owned their homes, farms, businesses, etc were owners of their land, from which they were forcibly expelled without any compensation by the Israelis in 1948.

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## ExPatPaki

> But the Palestinians who owned their homes, farms, businesses, etc were owners of their land, from which they were forcibly expelled without any compensation by the Israelis in 1948.


The Israelis did that because they wanted "peace", according to Frank.

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## FrankRep

> But the Palestinians who owned their homes, farms, businesses, etc were owners of their land, from which they were forcibly expelled without any compensation by the Israelis in 1948.


Before the British controlled Palestine, *The Turks Owned it! (1840-1909)*

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## eduardo89

> Before the British controlled Palestine, *The Turks Owned it! (1840-1909)*


The Turks *RULED* it. That's like saying your home is owned by the federal government. NO! You own your home. Palestinians owned their homes, not the Turks, not the British, not the Israelis. They were expelled from THEIR homes.

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## robert68

> Israel stole Palestinian land by killing innocent Palestinian men women and children according to Murray Rothbard and still steals Palestinian land.
> 
> But since you hate Palestinians you support the theft of their land and homes by Israel.


FrankRep is a cafeteria libertarian at best (ephasis). This forum has many.

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## juleswin

> The part where he saids we (Israel) are better off without economic aid from the US is correct.


Dont fool your self, the financial aid we give to them helps them out a lot. They have free eductaion, healthcare and a massive military states all because of the aid from the US. Take it away and they might actually have to pay for their lavish lifestyle. Free money is always a good thing

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## juleswin

> Palestinian militants attack Israel with bombs and then complain Israel doesn't want peace.


I dont know why but suddenly I feel the urge to reach into the monitor and punch frankrep in the brain. Someone with their exposure to the freedom message shouldn't be making the kind of arguement you are making. the sad part is that am not even a violent person

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## FrankRep

> The Turks *RULED* it. That's like saying your home is owned by the federal government. NO! You own your home. Palestinians owned their homes, not the Turks, not the British, not the Israelis. They were expelled from THEIR homes.


That's not how the world works. Do you Indians own America? ... Not anymore.





> FrankRep is a cafeteria libertarian at best (ephasis). This forum has many.


I'm a Conservative Constitutionalist, not a Libertarian.

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## GreenLP

FrankRep, what would be your solution to solve the Palestine/Israeli conflict?

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## ExPatPaki

> I dont know why but suddenly I feel the urge to reach into the monitor and punch frankrep in the brain. Someone with their exposure to the freedom message shouldn't be making the kind of arguement you are making. the sad part is that am not even a violent person


Gotta rep you for that one!

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## ExPatPaki

> That's not how the world works. Do you Indians own America? ... Not anymore.


You completely failed in refuting eduardo89.

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## FrankRep

> The Turks *RULED* it. That's like saying your home is owned by the federal government. NO! You own your home. Palestinians owned their homes, not the Turks, not the British, not the Israelis. They were expelled from THEIR homes.





> That's not how the world works. Do you Indians own America? ... Not anymore.





> You completely failed in refuting eduardo89.


That's not how the world works. The earth isn't some Libertarian fairytale land. Genocide, Slavery, murder, rape all exists and you can complain about how "unfair" it is, but that's just reality of the situation. 

Sorry.

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## ExPatPaki

> Genocide, Slavery, murder, rape all exists and you can while and complain about how "unfair" it is, but that's just reality.


Right, and there's nothing wrong in standing against such injustices. But yea, you still completely failed in refuting eduardo89, and that still hasn't changed.

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## doodle

> Right, because Israel doesn't want peace.


Reminded of this Time feature that was published few years after 9/11:






> Palestinian militants attack Israel with bombs and then complain Israel doesn't want peace.


Yet the rose petals that Israelis drop on Palestinian families and houses seem to kill thousand times more civilians than MOABs that Palestinians drop on Israelis.

Not sure what the remedy is here but I would recommend starting with stop watching of Fox/CNN.. if that does not help, stop watching all muslism, jewish, christian ( all parties to this land conflict and may not be objectivists) run media and rely on this wonderful exotic Hindu newspaper sourced here recently ( LINK ) or  maybe atheist Russian media like RT.  
God Bless.

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## GreenLP

FrankRep, what would be your solution to solve the Palestine/Israeli conflict?

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## FrankRep

> FrankRep, what would be your solution to solve the Palestine/Israeli conflict?


Israelis and Palestinians will need to figure out a solution themselves. The Palestinians need to remember that Israel is stronger economically and militarily and they have stronger supporters. Palestinians will need to compromise.

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## GreenLP

> Israelis and Palestinians will need to figure out a solution themselves. The Palestinians need to remember that Israel is stronger economically and militarily and they have stronger supporters. Palestinians will need to compromise.


So basically, whoever has the stronger allies, the other side will need to compromise?

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## FrankRep

> So basically, whoever has the stronger allies, the other side will need to compromise?


Israel is stronger economically and militarily, so yes, Palestinians are at a disadvantage and will need to compromise. 

Like it or not, that's how the world operates.

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## GreenLP

> Israel is stronger economically and militarily, so yes, Palestinians are at a disadvantage and will need to compromise. 
> 
> Like it or not, that's how the world operates.


So if Palestine becomes stronger economically and militarily, along with gaining stronger allies, Israel will be at a disadvantage and will need to compromise?

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## FrankRep

> So if Palestine becomes stronger economically and militarily, along with gaining stronger allies, Israel will be at a disadvantage and will need to compromise?


You bet. Either compromise or fight/die. 

People may whine: "That's not fair!" .. Sorry, life's not fair.

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## GreenLP

> You bet. Either compromise or fight.


IYO, should Palestine compromise, or fight?

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## FrankRep

> IYO, should Palestine compromise, or fight?


Sure, they can try. The Palestinians could try to fight, but they'll most likely lose/die.

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## GreenLP

> Sure, they can try. The Palestinians could try to fight, but they'll most likely lose/die.


The way you state it sounds like you almost want they to try to fight so a lot of them will die.

Do you support Israel over Palestine?

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## FrankRep

> The way you state it sounds like you almost want they to try to fight so a lot of them will die.
> 
> Do you support Israel over Palestine?


Israel is stronger, they will win the fight. That's what I'm saying.

I personally support Israel. However, I don't want the US involved in the conflict though.

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## GreenLP

> I personally support Israel.


Is this fully/partially because of religious beliefs?

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## eduardo89

> Is this fully/partially because of religious beliefs?


I've never understood that...

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## FrankRep

> Is this fully/partially because of religious beliefs?


Read the first post on this thread:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...he-Middle-East

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## GreenLP

> I've never understood that...


Never understood why some people support Israel based on religious beliefs?

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## GreenLP

> Read the first post on this thread:
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...he-Middle-East


So is that a no to my question?

It would be a lot easier debating with you if you'd simply answer my questions directly.

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## FrankRep

> So is that a no to my question?
> 
> It would be a lot easier debating with you if you'd simply answer my questions directly.


I support Israel. What's there to debate?

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## GreenLP

> I support Israel. What's there to debate?


Is this fully/partially because of religious beliefs?

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## ExPatPaki

> I support Israel. What's there to debate?


Do you support Israel when they bomb churches in Lebanon?

The  article in the OP is full of anti-Iranian propaganda. The author wants to save the "oh poor Israeli Jews" against the big bad Iranian boogie man. Do you support attacking Iran to save Israel? Why do you support lies against Iran?

The author, Blunderfield, states that the average Iranian does not want to exterminate Israel. That's a load of BS. Even the Iranians in America that I hang out and drink beer with want Israel to be completely destroyed. They don't call themselves Muslims, hate religion, and even more importantly hate the Islamic government in Iran. But not more than they hate Israel.

----------


## ExPatPaki

> Is this fully/partially because of religious beliefs?


Is hatred for people who have brown skin a religious belief?

----------


## doodle

> I support Israel. What's there to debate?


There is lot to debate, when you can find time for it.


*This cost estimate is couple of years old, some* *recent estimartes  cite $3-$4 Trillion figures*:

----------


## BlackTerrel

> Do you support Israel when they bomb churches in Lebanon?


Do you support Iran when they execute Muslims who convert to Christianity?

Previously you told me that you do.

----------


## eduardo89

> Never understood why some people support Israel based on religious beliefs?


Yeah. It just doesn't make sense to me. The whole "Jews are God's chosen people" argument seems like a load of bull$#@! to me, especially for Christians to say.

----------


## cindy25

what Western values?  conscription and socialism?

----------


## ConvertedRepublican

> I'm a member of the National Socialist Party, not a Libertarian.


Fixed it for you.

----------


## Justinjj1

Another garbage article from the idiotic John Birch Society.

----------


## ExPatPaki

> Do you support Iran when they execute Muslims who convert to Christianity?


The two issues are not related. Are you trying to discuss issues or are you trying to discuss me instead?

Israel bombing churches in another country, and Iran doing it's own thing in it's own country.

----------


## BlackTerrel

> The two issues are not related. Are you trying to discuss issues or are you trying to discuss me instead?
> 
> Israel bombing churches in another country, and Iran doing it's own thing in it's own country.


Seems a bit hypocritical of you to pretend to care about Christians when you support execution for Muslims who convert to Christianity.

Actually it doesn't just seem so - it is.

----------


## doodle

BT and EP, I would recommend everyone keen on proving their support for religious freedom can do good by starting at home where charity begins and then moving on to countries  where we have greatest influence and giving billions wefare in aid. Only then we can start preparing to liberate christians in Iraq, Iram, Kenya or wherever plights of christians ( or other minorities) keep people up at night.

How about starting by showing some moral support ( or more if you have means) for fellow American Christian  Eddy who is being persecuted merely for inviting non bellievers to Christ's message of love for all at birth place of Christ of all places and has been under house arrest for years?




What do you say to that proposal?

----------


## eduardo89

Thanks for the video. That's one thing people don't seem to understand. Israel is only a free democratic state if you're a Jew. Jewish state and freedom can't go hand in hand. There will always be preferential treatment towards Jews and discrimination against all others.

----------


## robert68

> Thanks for the video. That's one thing people don't seem to understand. Israel is only a free democratic state if you're a Jew. Jewish state and freedom can't go hand in hand. There will always be preferential treatment towards Jews and discrimination against all others.


Also, the last I checked, 90 percent or so of the land of Israel is owned by state and para-state organizations.

----------


## eduardo89

> Also, the last I checked, 90 percent or so of the land of Israel is owned by state and para-state organizations.


Yup, the Israel Land Administration owns/administers 93% of the land in Israel, and they are by law forbidden from leasing it or selling it to non-Jews.

Also to note, of that 93%, 13% of the total is owned by the Jewish National Fund which a quasi-governmental organization whose main purpose is to buy up land to make sure it does not fall into non-Jewish ownership...

So 13% of Israel is owned by an government-sponsored racist organization, and 93% of the land is owned or administered by an agency that discriminates even against Israeli citizens if they aren't Jewish.

What a lovely country.

----------


## ExPatPaki

> Seems a bit hypocritical of you to pretend to care about Christians when you support execution for Muslims who convert to Christianity.


I wasn't talking about Christians, I was talking about Israel *violating the sovereignty of Lebanon* when they bomb *CHURCHES* there. Then I asked the New American spamming troll known as FrankRep, if he supported such an action by his favorite country. Still have not received an answer for that.

Now you can tell me, where did I say I care about Christians in my post you lying troll?

I know you are mentally slow, but please try to keep up. Did I ever say I support Iran bombing churches in other countries?

----------


## Dr.3D

> I support Israel. What's there to debate?


Oh watch out.... I've seen people banned for doing that.

----------


## eduardo89

> Oh watch out.... I've seen people banned for doing that.


Rightfully so. I thought we support liberty and individual rights on this forum?

----------


## FrankRep

> Rightfully so. I thought we support liberty and individual rights on this forum?


eduardo89, you think I should be banned for supporting Israel?

----------


## doodle

To be fair, FR has been critical of Israel policies too when Israel was "acting like Nazis":

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...15#post1914015

Fair and balanced approach should be commended in the interest of freedom in mideast.

----------


## robert68

> To be fair, FR has been critical of Israel policies too when Israel was "acting like Nazis":
> 
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...15#post1914015
> 
> Fair and balanced approach should be commended in the interest of freedom in mideast.



Israel has always “acted like Nazis” wrt the Palestinians, everywhere in historic Palestine (hardly just in Gaza). That one short post of his doesn’t remotely counter his regular zionist propaganda.

----------


## BlackTerrel

> I wasn't talking about Christians, I was talking about Israel *violating the sovereignty of Lebanon* when they bomb *CHURCHES* there. Then I asked the New American spamming troll known as FrankRep, if he supported such an action by his favorite country. Still have not received an answer for that.
> 
> Now you can tell me, where did I say I care about Christians in my post you lying troll?
> 
> I know you are mentally slow, but please try to keep up. Did I ever say I support Iran bombing churches in other countries?


I thought when you asked about Churches being bombed you had concern for Christians being bombed.  Turns out I was incorrect - you don't care about Christians.  Thank you for correcting me.

----------


## BlackTerrel

> Israel has always “acted like Nazis” wrt the Palestinians, everywhere in historic Palestine (hardly just in Gaza). That one short post of his doesn’t remotely counter his regular zionist propaganda.


Part of the problem with engaging in hyperbole is no one takes potentially legitimate points seriously.  Kind of like Adrian Peterson comparing NFL players to slaves.

----------


## ExPatPaki

> I thought when you asked about Churches being bombed you had concern for Christians being bombed.  Turns out I was incorrect


Exactly, you were incorrect because you are mentally slow, a fact I stated in my prior post. By the way, Muslims typically attend churches in Lebanon as well; especially in Southern Lebanon.




> - you don't care about Christians.


And your mental retardation leads you to such unrelated and ridiculous conclusions.

----------


## BlackTerrel

A second ago you were upset when I inferred you might have some compassion for Christians.




> Now you can tell me, where did I say I care about Christians in my post you lying troll?

----------


## ExPatPaki

> A second ago you were upset when I inferred you might have some compassion for Christians.


No, I was upset at your inability to grasp simple concepts.

----------


## BlackTerrel

> BT and EP, I would recommend everyone keen on proving their support for religious freedom can do good by starting at home where charity begins and then moving on to countries  where we have greatest influence and giving billions wefare in aid. Only then we can start preparing to liberate christians in Iraq, Iram, Kenya or wherever plights of christians ( or other minorities) keep people up at night.
> 
> How about starting by showing some moral support ( or more if you have means) for fellow American Christian  Eddy who is being persecuted merely for inviting non bellievers to Christ's message of love for all at birth place of Christ of all places and has been under house arrest for years?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you say to that proposal?


I just watched 9 minutes of this and I'm still not entirely clear what his claim of persecution is.

Could you break it down: what is supposed to have happened here?

----------


## eduardo89

> eduardo89, you think I should be banned for supporting Israel?


No, it was more rhetoric than anything.

But in all honestly, I don't understand how you can support Israel. Israel is not a peace-loving nation that espouses our values of liberty, individual rights and equality before the law.

----------


## doodle

> I just watched 9 minutes of this and I'm still not entirely clear what his claim of persecution is.
> 
> Could you break it down: what is supposed to have happened here?


As reported in this and other videos made by Eddie while being under house arraest that you may not have seen, Eddie is an American Christian missionary who loves Israel ( as his  tshirt logo shows) and was inviting non believers to message of Jesus' love for all in Israel. While Eddie was with his missionary friend was handing out pamphlets about Jessus' message, Eddie was harrased by an Israeli extremist who tried to take his camera. When Eddie put the camera in his pocket, the attacker put his hand in Eddie's pocket in effort to snatch his camera and Eddie did not let him. Police got involved, Eddie was tried and was put under house arrest for couple of years I believe. The attacker did not spend a single day under arrest.  Freedom of religion on the land where Jesus once walked. Harrd to believe huh?

----------


## doodle

> Israel has always “acted like Nazis” wrt the Palestinians, everywhere in historic Palestine (hardly just in Gaza). That one short post of his doesn’t remotely counter his regular zionist propaganda.


Frank can better state his views himself but impression I got from his various posts was that he believed in equality between arab and jewish races and did not support zionism. But I would let Frank answer this if he's inclined to.

----------


## robert68

> Part of the problem with engaging in hyperbole is no one takes potentially legitimate points seriously.  Kind of like Adrian Peterson comparing NFL players to slaves.


To zionists like yourself, with little or no regard for the property rights of the Palestinians and many others in that region, the truth will always be hyperbole, irrelevant, or something else. My post wasn’t intended for your type.

----------


## BlackTerrel

> As reported in this and other videos made by Eddie while being under house arraest that you may not have seen, Eddie is an American Christian missionary who loves Israel ( as his  tshirt logo shows) and was inviting non believers to message of Jesus' love for all in Israel. While Eddie was with his missionary friend was handing out pamphlets about Jessus' message, Eddie was harrased by an Israeli extremist who tried to take his camera. When Eddie put the camera in his pocket, the attacker put his hand in Eddie's pocket in effort to snatch his camera and Eddie did not let him. Police got involved, Eddie was tried and was put under house arrest for couple of years I believe. The attacker did not spend a single day under arrest.  Freedom of religion on the land where Jesus once walked. Harrd to believe huh?


Yes very hard to believe.  First of all what kind of weak sauce totalitarian regime puts someone under "house arrest"?

Second of all if he was a US citizen - why didn't he just come back here?

----------


## BlackTerrel

> To zionists like yourself, with little of no regard for the property rights of people in that region, the truth will always be hyperbole, irrelevant, or something else. My post wasn’t intended for your type.


Ah ok thank you for clarifying.

----------


## doodle

> Yes very hard to believe.  First of all what kind of weak sauce totalitarian regime puts someone under "house arrest"?
> 
> Second of all if he was a US citizen - why didn't he just come back here?


I'm little unclear, you think putting a preacher under house arrest  for over two years just for giving out Christianity materials  by an ally who receives $4 Billion of tax payers welfare aid every year is "weak sauce" on their part?  Didn't the word "oppressive" come to mind?

Second, if he was persecuted by Israeli courts,  that appear to be biased against Christians if you watched Eddie's video, for giving out materials about Jesus message of love for all on the land where Jesus was born, your solution is that he should just come home even if he did not break any law and just exercised basic right of free speech?

Any time a Christion missionary is harrased/persecuted in a foreign country, you want them to just come back to US?

On this issue of religious freedoms in the oasis of western values, on whose side are you on, Eddie's or the oppressive extermists who attached him for preaching?

Tourists apparently get stoned for just wearing t-shirt like Eddie is wearing in this video:




> Haaretz reported that 100 residents of Mea She'arim *began attacking 50 pro-Israel Christian tourists who were sporting t-shirts that read "Love your neighbor as yourself," as they entered the Haredi Jerusalem neighbourhood* (28 June 2006). Police intervened but made no arrests, instead waiting for the tourists, three of whom were injured, to make formal complaints (Haaretz 28 June 2006).


LINK

Here is another tame example of Christians being harrased in Israel:

----------


## BlackTerrel

> I'm little unclear, you think putting a preacher under house arrest  for over two years just for giving out Christianity materials  by an ally who receives $4 Billion of tax payers welfare aid every year is "weak sauce" on their part?  Didn't the word "oppressive" come to mind?


Nope.  Especially when I googled it and it shows him getting into a van and trying to run over a bunch of rabbis standing on the sidewalk.

http://jewishisrael.ning.com/video/m...ts-up-jew-with

If the best you got is this case it's endemic of exactly what I am talking about.  Because I see a lot more oppressive $#@! happening in our own country.




> Tourists apparently get stoned for just wearing t-shirt like Eddie is wearing in this video:
> 
> Haaretz reported that 100 residents of Mea She'arim began attacking 50 pro-Israel Christian tourists who were sporting t-shirts that read "Love your neighbor as yourself," as they entered the Haredi Jerusalem neighbourhood (28 June 2006). Police intervened but made no arrests, instead waiting for the tourists, three of whom were injured, to make formal complaints (Haaretz 28 June 2006).


Again.  This is exactly my point.  Of course this is bad but if Israel was really so evil you wouldn't need to go back to an incident in 2006 (where thankfully it doesn't sound like anyone was severely hurt) to make your point.

----------


## AminCad

End the sanctions on Iran. They cost the US far more than the direct aid given to Israel.

----------


## ExPatPaki

Detention and Deportation in Israel
A New Nakba?




> The father is Thai; the mother, Filipina. They both arrived in Israel, legally, on state-issued work visas. Here, they met and fell in love. And that's how they became "illegal."
> 
> The father lost his visa because of an Israeli policy that forbids romantic relationships between migrant workers (read: non-Jews). The mother lost her legal status due to the governmental policy that forces women to choose between their visa and their baby. M made the choice most women wouldafter she gave birth, she refused to send her infant to live with extended family in a faraway land. So she became "illegal", along with her child.

----------


## ddavis

It is amusing that Palestinians expect our sympathy when I remember the pictures of them dancing in the street after 9/11.  Israel is our only friend in the Middle East and we should do everything in our power to support them.  If the Palestinians had all of Israel, it would be a wasteland in a decade.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> It is amusing that Palestinians expect our sympathy when I remember the pictures of them dancing in the street after 9/11.  Israel is our only friend in the Middle East and we should do everything in our power to support them.  If the Palestinians had all of Israel, it would be a wasteland in a decade.


Ah, this rumor makes its way to RPFs at last. 

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.asp

----------


## Flash

> It is amusing that Palestinians expect our sympathy when I remember the pictures of them dancing in the street after 9/11.  Israel is our only friend in the Middle East and we should do everything in our power to support them.  If the Palestinians had all of Israel, it would be a wasteland in a decade.


There were reports of dancing Israelis in New York City right after 9/11:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Israe...ient=firefox-a

----------


## ddavis

I went to Lebanon in 1974 to help train the Christian militia.  You can find just about anything you want on the internet.  I have been there.

----------


## jmdrake

> I went to Lebanon in 1974 to help train the Christian militia.  You can find just about anything you want on the internet.  I have been there.


Lebanon in 1974 != Palestine in 2001.  Sorry, but you weren't "there".

Anyway, since you care so much about dancing semites[1] in the wake of 9/11 what do you think of these dancing semites?




[1] Arabs and Jews are both semites FWIW.

----------


## ddavis

Lebanon in 1974 != Palestine in 2001. Sorry, but you weren't "there".  The hatred that has existed for 2000 years, didn't change from 1974 to 2001.  There is no such thing as Palestine.

----------


## jmdrake

> Lebanon in 1974 != Palestine in 2001. Sorry, but you weren't "there".  The hatred that has existed for 2000 years, didn't change from 1974 to 2001.  There is no such thing as Palestine.


Did you or did you not watch this video?




If you did please comment on it.  If you didn't then don't reply until you did.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Lebanon in 1974 != Palestine in 2001. Sorry, but you weren't "there".  The hatred that has existed for 2000 years, didn't change from 1974 to 2001.  There is no such thing as Palestine.


There is no such thing as Israel either.  The Judah-ites were stateless-"governed" by Judges until the Kingdom of Israel (c. 1020-930 BCE).  The area called Palestine has been called that formally since c. 450 BC. /end rant

----------


## ddavis

Yes, I watched the video.  Israelis did not fly planes into the twin towers.  They do have the best intelligence in the world. They need to.  Israel has lived with these animals and now we know what they have been dealing with.

----------


## jmdrake

> Yes, I watched the video.  Israelis did not fly planes into the twin towers.  They do have the best intelligence in the world. They need to.  Israel has lived with these animals and now we know what they have been dealing with.


Palestinians didn't fly the planes into the towers either.  You tried to make hay over debunked video clips of Palestinians dancing in streets on 9/11.  Well here is proven video of Israelis dancing while watching the towers burn *in NYC*.  You're being intellectually dishonest.

And this wasn't the first or last time Israel celebrated terror.

_British anger at terror celebration
The commemoration of Israeli bombings that killing 92 people has caused offence
By Ned Parker and Stephen Farrell

The rightwingers, including Binyamin Netanyahu, the former Prime Minister, are commemorating the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, the headquarters of British rule, that killed 92 people and helped to drive the British from Palestine.

They have erected a plaque outside the restored building, and are holding a two-day seminar with speeches and a tour of the hotel by one of the Jewish resistance fighters involved in the attack.

Simon McDonald, the British Ambassador in Tel Aviv, and John Jenkins, the Consul-General in Jerusalem, have written to the municipality, stating: “We do not think that it is right for an act of terrorism, which led to the loss of many lives, to be commemorated.”

In particular they demanded the removal of the plaque that pays tribute to the Irgun, the Jewish resistance branch headed by Menachem Begin, the future Prime Minister, which carried out the attack on July 22, 1946.

The plaque presents as fact the Irgun’s claim that people died because the British ignored warning calls. “For reasons known only to the British, the hotel was not evacuated,” it states.

Mr McDonald and Dr Jenkins denied that the British had been warned, adding that even if they had “this does not absolve those who planted the bomb from responsibility for the deaths”. On Monday city officials agreed to remove the language deemed offensive from the blue sign hanging on the hotel’s gates, though that had not been done shortly before it was unveiled last night.

The controversy over the plaque and the two-day celebration of the bombing, sponsored by Irgun veterans and the right-wing Menachem Begin Heritage Centre, goes to the heart of the debate over the use of political violence in the Middle East. Yesterday Mr Netanyahu argued in a speech celebrating the attack that the Irgun were governed by morals, unlike fighters from groups such as Hamas.

“It’s very important to make the distinction between terror groups and freedom fighters, and between terror action and legitimate military action,” he said. “Imagine that Hamas or Hezbollah would call the military headquarters in Tel Aviv and say, ‘We have placed a bomb and we are asking you to evacuate the area’.”

But the view of the attack was very different in 1946 when The Times branded the Irgun “terrorists in disguise”. Decades later, Irgun veterans are unrepentant. Sarah Agassi, 80, remembers spying in the King David Hotel.

She and a fellow agent posed as a couple. They danced tangos and waltzes, sipped whisky and wine while they cased out the hotel.

On the day her brother and his fellow fighters posed as Arabs delivering milk and brought seven milk churns, each containing 50kg of explosives, into the building. Ms Agassi waited across the street until her brother rushed out. She said that she then made the warning call to the British command in the hotel.

Sitting in the luxurious hotel lobby, she expressed no regret. “We fought for our independence. We thought it was the right way . . . If I had to fight for Israel, I swear even now I would do anything.”

TWO VERSIONS

The original wording:

The Hotel housed the Mandate Secretariat as well as the Army Headquarters. On July 1946 (sic) Irgun fighters at the order of the Hebrew Resistance Movement planted explosives in the basement. Warning phone calls had been made urging the hotel’s occupants to leave immediately. For reasons known only to the British the hotel was not evacuated and after 25 minutes the bombs exploded, and to the Irgun’s regret and dismay 91 persons were killed.

The amended version

. . .Warning phone calls had been made to the hotel, the Palestine Post and the French Consulate, urging the hotel’s occupants to leave immediately.

The hotel was not evacuated, and after 25 minutes the bombs exploded. The entire western wing was destroyed, and to the Irgun’s regret 92 persons were killed._

----------


## jmdrake

Oh, and did you help train these guys?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

If so that speaks volumes for your "Christianity".

----------


## ddavis

Palestinians didn't fly the planes into the towers either. You tried to make hay over debunked video clips of Palestinians dancing in streets on 9/11. Well here is proven video of Israelis dancing while watching the towers burn in NYC. You're being intellectually dishonest.
Palestinians elected Hamas which our government considers a terrorist organization.  They have ties to Hezbollah responsible for the Beruit bombings which killed 241 Marines. Why would any American have sympathy for the Palestinians?  
After I left Lebanon, I learned that many Christians in southern Lebanon supported the minority Muslim community.  Early in the civil war, the Muslims accepted the Christian's support.  When they were no longer of any value, the Muslims slaughtered them.

----------


## jmdrake

> Palestinians didn't fly the planes into the towers either. You tried to make hay over debunked video clips of Palestinians dancing in streets on 9/11. Well here is proven video of Israelis dancing while watching the towers burn in NYC. You're being intellectually dishonest.
> Palestinians elected Hamas which our government considers a terrorist organization.  They have ties to Hezbollah responsible for the Beruit bombings which killed 241 Marines. Why would any American have sympathy for the Palestinians?  
> After I left Lebanon, I learned that many Christians in southern Lebanon supported the minority Muslim community.  Early in the civil war, the Muslims accepted the Christian's support.  When they were no longer of any value, the Muslims slaughtered them.


Why would any British person have any sympathy for Israel?    And why were there any marines in Beruit in the first place?  That was a stupid idea.  As far as Christians in Lebonon, many of them grew to support Hezbollah after the last war with Israel.  Israel bombing civilian targets and using illegal cluster bombs which are unable to differentiate between Christian and Muslim might have something to do with that.  Anyway, if you're trying to spread the gospel by training militias your moral compass is off and there is no reasoning with you.

----------


## ddavis

Actually, I trainned Dany Chamoun's Tigers.  I trainned them in urban warfare and sniper techniques. Once you enter into a war, it isn't about who is right but who is left.  I taught them how to win.   I understand that they were quite effective.

----------


## ddavis

I'm not a Brit.  I don't care where their sympathy lies.  The Marines and some French where there as a peacekeeping force.  If Christians supported Hezbollah they are fools.  A fool is someone that doesn't benefit from past mistakes.  Hamas bombs civilian targets inside of Israel, daily.  I was not a Christian at the time.  I was just out of the service in a bad economy.  The Lebanese Christians wanted people with our skills to train shop keepers into soldiers.

----------


## jmdrake

> Actually, I trainned Dany Chamoun's Tigers.  I trainned them in urban warfare and sniper techniques. Once you enter into a war, it isn't about who is right but who is left.  I taught them how to win.   I understand that they were quite effective.


Sure.  I bet Hezbollah could use your services to since it's "not about who's right but who's left".    And I didn't say you were a Brit.  My point is that Israelis have used terrorism (documented and admitted in the case of the King David hotel) when it fit their advantage.  The bottom line is that you are logically inconsistent.  You want to harp about false reports of Palestinians dancing on 9/11 and ignore reports of Israelis doing the same thing because it doesn't fit your narrow minded world view.  And the U.S. going around the world on "peacekeeping missions" is part of what's wrong with the world and part of the reason why we're bankrupt as a nation.  If you support that, you have a lot to learn about liberty.  Hopefully you will though.

Another good video that you probably aren't going to watch.

----------


## ddavis

I watched your video.  1954?  Who was responsible for the Munich Olympic Massacre?  That was 1972.  These are some of the same animals you defend.

We agree on something.  I want us out of the Middle East.  I do believe that Palestinians danced in the streets.  I'm sure that many Israelis were glad that 9/11 showed us that we have a common enemy.  

As far as Hamas and Hezbollah, if I was Netanyahu and a rocket came in from Gaza or southern Lebanon, I would take out a square mile of where it came from.  I would cause them such pain, their own people would stop it from happening.  Cluster bombs?  I would use napalm.

----------


## GuerrillaXXI

> Yes, I watched the video.  Israelis did not fly planes into the twin towers.  They do have the best intelligence in the world. They need to.  Israel has lived with these animals and now we know what they have been dealing with.


Maybe Israel wouldn't be living with those "animals" if the Israelis weren't occupying and stealing their land. Jews and Arabs lived side by side in relative peace for many years prior to the arrival of the Zionists with their ethnic cleansing campaign. Maybe it would be easier for the Arabs to "recognize Israel" (as the Israeli government demands) if the Israelis would actually show the _fixed borders_ of the state they want recognized!

$#@! Israel. It's a criminal state, the Jewish-supremacist analogue of Nazi Germany with a similar policy of lebensraum. Even worse, its lobby and loyalists (which certainly do not include all Jews, BTW) have been buying US politicians for decades. We Americans need to do everything possible to free our government from the stranglehold of the Israel lobby.




> As far as Hamas and Hezbollah, if I was Netanyahu and a rocket came in from Gaza or southern Lebanon, I would take out a square mile of where it came from. I would cause them such pain, their own people would stop it from happening. Cluster bombs? I would use napalm.


Thanks for this illustration of the hypocritical and bloodthirsty Zionist mindset. When Palestinians use crude homemade rockets of necessarily limited precision to retaliate for Israeli occupation and brutality, it's "terrorism" that can never possibly be justified. But when Israelis -- who have plenty of precision weapons -- bomb wide swaths of populated areas to keep the victims of occupation in a state of subjugation, that's righteous "self-defense."

----------


## SimpleName

The zionist/anti-zionist stuff is history. The sole reasoning for pulling away from Israel is our own safety. Supporting Israel breeds enemies of which we wind up paying off to forget about it. But as we've seen, its never enough. So we could help dampen the anti-American sentiment by simply pulling away from all involvement in the Middle East. No more aid, no more choosing sides, and without a doubt, NO MORE WEAPONS AND WARS!

----------


## jmdrake

> I watched your video.  1954?  Who was responsible for the Munich Olympic Massacre?  That was 1972.  These are some of the same animals you defend.


  So *official acts of terrorism done by the Israeli government against the United States* are erased in your mind because the other side later attacked Israelis?  And you somehow think that's logical?  I feel sorry for you.  You went around the world to train murders and it's clouded your judgment.  It would be poetic justice if some of the snipers you trained are now part of the Hezbollah / Christian coalition in Lebanon.

Animals?  Go to Israel and look in the eyes of this little girl and tell her she's an animal.  Tell her that she should be allowed to attend daycare with precious little Jewish kids because of what someone else did back in 1972.




You need to pray to Jesus to forgive you and take hate out of your heart.




> We agree on something.  I want us out of the Middle East.  I do believe that Palestinians danced in the streets.  I'm sure that many Israelis were glad that 9/11 showed us that we have a common enemy.


I have a common enemy with the Palestinians and the Israelis.  My enemy is not human.  My enemy are the corrupt powers used by, and that use humans.
_Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms._

Israel has used terrorism against the U.S. whether you are willing to own up to that fact or not.  The Palestinians have not used terrorism against the U.S.  (Again the 9/11 hijackers were not Palestinian).  But I don't hate either group.  I hate the spirit of Satan (the accuser) that motivates hate.  It's the same spirit that motivates you to call an entire group of people "animals".  It's not your fault.  War will do that to people.  But you don't have to stay that way.




> As far as Hamas and Hezbollah, if I was Netanyahu and a rocket came in from Gaza or southern Lebanon, I would take out a square mile of where it came from.  I would cause them such pain, their own people would stop it from happening.  Cluster bombs?  I would use napalm.


And you would kill the Christians that you risked your life to train years before?  Some friend you are.

Edit: One more thing.  Anyone who says "there is no such thing as Palestine" is not familiar with the Bible.  Palestine = Philistia.

----------


## Travlyr

> It is amusing that Palestinians expect our sympathy when I remember the pictures of them dancing in the street after 9/11.  Israel is our only friend in the Middle East and *we* should do everything in *our* power to support them.  If the Palestinians had all of Israel, it would be a wasteland in a decade.


What's this "we" and "our" crap about? Leave me out of it, and get YOUR hands out of my wallet. If you want to $#@! with people, do it on your own time with your own money.

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## thetruthhurtsthefed

> Once the Palestinian militants stop doing suicide bombings, peace may be achievable.


FrankRep....please tell me you are joking!?  let me come into your house claim half and police the entire house under MY rules and I will decide what you eat and when the food comes in.  Is that kosher enough for ya?  If you don't like it.....too bad. Now Franky....what would you do?

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## ExPatPaki

> Now Franky....what would you do?


He would post lies and propaganda against Islam and the Palestinians on RPF.

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## thetruthhurtsthefed

> Israel is stronger economically and militarily, so yes, Palestinians are at a disadvantage and will need to compromise. 
> 
> Like it or not, that's how the world operates.


So...why can't palistine ally with Iran? (israel doesn't like that).  Why can't the Russians supply them with weapons (israel doesn't like that).  Your argument is terrible.  Whenever the playing field attempts to be leveled israel whines and cries foul.  "I want to be the lone power without any military opposition....wah!"
Franky....you are struggling here.....you sound like an israeli politician - in particular beni netanyahu (no matter what israel does it is good)

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## FrankRep

> So...why can't palistine ally with Iran? (israel doesn't like that).  Why can't the Russians supply them with weapons (israel doesn't like that).  Your argument is terrible.  Whenever the playing field attempts to be leveled israel whines and cries foul.  "I want to be the lone power without any military opposition....wah!"
> Franky....you are struggling here.....you sound like an israeli politician - in particular beni netanyahu (no matter what israel does it is good)


Palestinians can ally with Iran.

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## thetruthhurtsthefed

> I'm little unclear, you think putting a preacher under house arrest  for over two years just for giving out Christianity materials  by an ally who receives $4 Billion of tax payers welfare aid every year is "weak sauce" on their part?  Didn't the word "oppressive" come to mind?
> 
> Second, if he was persecuted by Israeli courts,  that appear to be biased against Christians if you watched Eddie's video, for giving out materials about Jesus message of love for all on the land where Jesus was born, your solution is that he should just come home even if he did not break any law and just exercised basic right of free speech?
> 
> Any time a Christion missionary is harrased/persecuted in a foreign country, you want them to just come back to US?
> 
> On this issue of religious freedoms in the oasis of western values, on whose side are you on, Eddie's or the oppressive extermists who attached him for preaching?
> 
> Tourists apparently get stoned for just wearing t-shirt like Eddie is wearing in this video:
> ...


eerily similar to Nazi's pushing around jews in Germany.

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## thetruthhurtsthefed

> It is amusing that Palestinians expect our sympathy when I remember the pictures of them dancing in the street after 9/11.  Israel is our only friend in the Middle East and we should do everything in our power to support them.  If the Palestinians had all of Israel, it would be a wasteland in a decade.


 ddavis;  don't forget the israelis that were "documenting" the towers collapsing the day of 911 IN NEW YORK!  The FBI gathered them up and arrested them for 2 months then the israeli lobbys twisted the law and sent them to israel where they came from.

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## YumYum

Some of the Zionists that many on this forum detest are big supporters of Ron Paul. The reason why is that they know that Ron Paul means what he says, and as president when he stops giving aid to Israel he will also keep his promise to not interfere in Israel's affairs. This is very important to many Israelis because they are sick and tired of having to pander to the White House every time they want to make a move.  And the truth is, even if what the Israeli government does to the Palestinians is wrong, once we stop giving aid, it is none of our business. There is a lot of positive talk on Israeli discussion boards about Ron Paul; even Rand for that matter.

But with the majority of American Jews who support Israel it is a different matter. They do not want aid to Israel to end; in fact, they want it to increase. They want the White House and Congress to be involved in Israel's affairs because they have a lot of influence on our government, and in an indirect way, American Jews can persuade and influence Israel's policies. The American Jews that I have talked to want us to go to war with Iran, while the majority Israelis want us to get out of the Middle East all together. There is a chasm developing here between American Zionists Jews and Israeli Zionists, and we need to realize this because we need to worry about our own country and we need Dr. Paul elected. The Israeli Zionists will help us; even financially, so we need to start finding areas we can agree with them on instead of fighting with them.

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## jmdrake

Well said YumYum.  For the record I don't detest Zionists.  I don't even detest those that want us to go to war with Iran.  I detest the spirit that influences them to say that.  And I detest the spirit that would influence someone to call a little girl who's too young to even know how to hate an "animal" just because of the ethnicity and religion of her parents.

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## thetruthhurtsthefed

> Palestinians can ally with Iran.


it seems izzy won't let it happen....c'mon just level the playing field izzy.

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## YumYum

> Well said YumYum.  For the record I don't detest Zionists.  I don't even detest those that want us to go to war with Iran.  I detest the spirit that influences them to say that.  And I detest the spirit that would influence someone to call a little girl who's too young to even know how to hate an "animal" just because of the ethnicity and religion of her parents.


I understand, I didn't mean detest them personally, I meant detest some of their actions. And, I wasn't referring to you, because I myself have been very upset with some of what the Zionists have done, so, I guess I am really pointing the finger at myself. But I do see an excellent opportunity here, and I wish we could make the most of it. American Jews have Israel as a homeland, that is a "back up" if they need to run away to, and they dream about one day living there, while Israeli Jews do live there and deal with real issues and real problems that affect them directly. I tend to listen more to Israelis and their perspective, and I am starting to tune American Jews out, who, to me, are starting to sound a little "kooky" and scary.

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## FrankRep

> Palestinians can ally with Iran.





> it seems izzy won't let it happen....c'mon just level the playing field izzy.


"Level the playing field"? You're joking right?

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## ExPatPaki

> it seems izzy won't let it happen....c'mon just level the playing field izzy.


Why would Frank care for the Palestinians that he hates because they have darker colored skin?

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## FrankRep

> Why would Frank care for the Palestinians that he hates because they have darker colored skin?


Silly lies and propaganda. You can do better than "pulling the race card" on me.

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## ExPatPaki

> Silly lies and propaganda. You can do better than "pulling the race card" on me.


Just like the silly lies and propaganda you spam RPF with, right Frank?

It's only lies according to you Frank. You're just sad Israel isn't killing more Palestinian children.

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## robert68

> ...
> ... while the majority Israelis want us to get out of the Middle East all together...


You’re very mistaken about that, and I’m sure can’t support it with credible evidence. An alliance between “Us” and “Israeli Zionists” will advance the opposite of libertarian objectives (if that happens to be what one supports).

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## YumYum

> You’re very mistaken about that, and I’m sure can’t support it with credible with evidence. An alliance between “Us” and “Israeli Zionists” will advance the opposite of libertarian objectives, if that happens to be what one supports.


Israel wanted us to take out Iran and did not want us to invade Iraq, according to the book "The Israel Lobby". But the neocons had other plans and wanted us to take out Hussein, and they promised Israel that as soon as we had control of Baghdad, the US would next go after Iran. Bush agreed. Well, the war went on too long in Iraq, and the neocon's promise was never kept, and Obama has no plans to bomb Iran, so Israel realizes it must go at it alone. Currently, the Israeli Zionists view the U.S. government as nothing more than a thorn in Israel's side, and as soon as it can shake free of us it will finalize its plans regarding the Palestinians and the rest of the Middle East, including Iran.

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## juvanya

> Why would Frank care for the Palestinians that he hates because they have darker colored skin?


I have seen blond and red haired falsestinians. How dark is Abu Mazen exactly?

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## thetruthhurtsthefed

> "Level the playing field"? You're joking right?


absolutely  israel has had ALL their military backed and sponsored by the US.  If it wasn't for uncle Sam supplying israel in the 60's the Arab nations would have wiped them out.  So why can't the Palestinians have more than garage/basement made rockets and stones to use against izzy?  Hell i bet if they had the same "sponsored" equipment from the Iranians or Russians izzy will put its tail between its legs and really open up negotiations/talks instead of staging them

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## juvanya

> absolutely  israel has had ALL their military backed and sponsored by the US.  If it wasn't for uncle Sam supplying israel in the 60's the Arab nations would have wiped them out.  So why can't the Palestinians have more than garage/basement made rockets and stones to use against izzy?  Hell i bet if they had the same "sponsored" equipment from the Iranians or Russians izzy will put its tail between its legs and really open up negotiations/talks instead of staging them


I think you mean starting in 73, and not much until the 80s. And hey, if youre not focused on killing people you dont like in your hood, you can have a strong economy with exports that enables you to buy better armaments. Or heck, maybe if the Arab entities stopped obsessing with eliminating Israel for a few minutes, theyd realize the Israelis are friendly people uninterested in bloodshed.

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## raiha

> *Janet Napolitano in Israel to observe airport security*
>  January 3rd, 2011 1:01 pm ET 
> 
> LINK
> 
> We are getting there gradually still have ways to go before christian girls in America are protocoled the way they are in the Oasis of Western values:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah like the article said, these ARE Western values.Western values = getting what you want, when you want it at what ever the cost.

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## fj45lvr

yeah "western values"= racism and ethnic cleansing

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## YumYum

> yeah "western values"= racism and ethnic cleansing


If I went into a restaurant and an African American chef prepared my meal, and I demanded that a white man prepare my meal because I don't anyone but a white man cooking my food, I'd be asked to leave. And yet, in this country a Judist will refuse food prepared by a Gentile, and that is totally acceptable. I never understood how this can be tolerated in our society.

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## juvanya

> If I went into a restaurant and an African American chef prepared my meal, and I demanded that a white man prepare my meal because I don't anyone but a white man cooking my food, I'd be asked to leave. And yet, in this country a Judist will refuse food prepared by a Gentile, and that is totally acceptable. I never understood how this can be tolerated in our society.


I dont know what a Judist is, but a non-Jew can prepare food under rabbinic supervision, and it will be kosher. The only exception is slaughtering and cheesemaking, to my knowledge.

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## FrankRep

> And yet, in this country a Judist will refuse food prepared by a Gentile, and that is totally acceptable. I never understood how this can be tolerated in our society.


Does the Gentile know how to prepare Kosher food? That's a pretty big issue.

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## YumYum

> Does the Gentile know how to prepare Kosher food? That's a pretty big issue.


My aunt's husband is a "Judist". He believes in everything the Talmud teaches. When he came to our house he asked me very politely: "would you mind cooking my breakfast instead of your mom?" I love this guy, so I am not slamming him. But I was bothered that he would ask me this, because my mom was cooking breakfast for the whole family, and my mom is a $#@!ska. I can cook and handle the food because I have Abraham's blood in my viens. I understand that. What I don't understand is that he thinks my mom is subhuman and cannot touch his food.

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## thetruthhurtsthefed

> Does the Gentile know how to prepare Kosher food? That's a pretty big issue.


There are quite a few Christian "big issues" as well frank, like saying "Merry Christmas, Santa Claus, Christmas Tree, Christmas Holidays......." but hey if we Christians offend jews by these words its no "big deal" is it?!  BUT god forbid a Gentile (a now derogatory word for a non-jew) cooks for a jew (non-Christian), hell its okay for jews to request otherwise. 
 Frank have you heard of the normalcy bias?  You must be either really naive or a govn't troll.  your answers are intelligent so I cannot immediately throw you into the stupid pile, but please wake up!  Is Zippyjuan your roommate?

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## doodle

> Nope.  Especially when I googled it and it shows him getting into a van and trying to run over a bunch of rabbis standing on the sidewalk.
> 
> http://jewishisrael.ning.com/video/m...ts-up-jew-with
> 
> If the best you got is this case it's endemic of exactly what I am talking about.  Because I see a lot more oppressive $#@! happening in our own country.
> 
> 
> 
> Again.  This is exactly my point.  Of course this is bad but if Israel was really so evil you wouldn't need to go back to an incident in 2006 (where thankfully it doesn't sound like anyone was severely hurt) to make your point.


 I was meaning to reply to this but was speechless and not sure how to respond to this. My first thought was has this vid been edited to not show what took place before this kicking action took place?  But  ss that really our Christian Zionist friend Eddie beating up couple of Jewish Rabbis in Israel while wearing "Jesus Loves You" T? 
That is shocking but it should be noted that this behavior cannot be represetative of all the other Christion Zionists who deeply and intensly love jewish people without any ulterior motives.

Still in shock about the logo on his tea shirt while the beat down is going down even if it is one sided clip and edited.

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