# News & Current Events > Individual Rights Violations: Case Studies >  Nudist Rights

## ian_co

Recently a thought popped into my mind, an issue which is hardly discussed yet has extreme relevance to freedom and liberty, despite only affected an extremely minute portion of the population who demand nudist rights. 

Personally, I would hate it if I was walking my daughter around the street one day and suddenly there is a nude old man, yet at the same time I cannot seem to find arguments about why his freedom of expression should be limited. It cannot be simply because I find it immoral and the government needs to force morality on people, or simply because I am offended and demand the government to set up laws that say I cannot be offended.

Of course he can do this in the privacy of his own home, but should he be allowed to do it in public areas?

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## Original_Intent

This is a situation where rights have to be balanced. In public places what is more reasonable and how much harm is done (if any) to the parties, and how many people are negatively affected on each side of the equation.

Most people expect to be able to go in public without being exposed to other people's exposure. How much harm? Arguable from no harm to some people would consider themselves traumatized. Balance that against the lone individual. How much is he/she harmed by being forced to at least cover his/her naughty bits? Most people in our society accept that this is a reasonable expectation. And there are places people can live if they don;t want to meet that expectation.

Now, I absolutely hate that it has anything to do with government, I think it would be much better if communities set their own expectations, and then rather than jail or fine an offender, anyone who disapproved could just voluntarily not associate with the person (such as refusing to employ, refusing to do business with, etc.

Of course, the individual could continue to rebel against the will of the majority. I think that is everyone's right, but it is also everyone else's right how they treat such a person as long as they do not agress against him/her.

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## heavenlyboy34

As long as there are "public" (i.e. government owned) areas, they will be subject to the arbitrary making and enforcement of laws typical of "public" property.  The solution is to privatize land and allow individuals to do on it as they wish, provided that they cause no demonstrable harm to others.  This way, if a neighbor finds the nudist offensive, he can simply build a wall blocking view of the nude neighbor.

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## specsaregood

> As long as there are "public" (i.e. government owned) areas, they will be subject to the arbitrary making and enforcement of laws typical of "public" property.  The solution is to privatize land and allow individuals to do on it as they wish, provided that they cause no demonstrable harm to others.  This way, if a neighbor finds the nudist offensive, he can simply build a wall blocking view of the nude neighbor.


And the wall you build blocks out sun, which kills the grass on your nudist neighbor's lawn, causing him harm.  Whereas his standing on the property line shaking his tallywhacker doesn't.

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## Acala

> As long as there are "public" (i.e. government owned) areas, they will be subject to the arbitrary making and enforcement of laws typical of "public" property.  The solution is to privatize land and allow individuals to do on it as they wish, provided that they cause no demonstrable harm to others.  This way, if a neighbor finds the nudist offensive, he can simply build a wall blocking view of the nude neighbor.


This^

"Public" ownership of resources is ALWAYS going to create a clash of values and interests.  The only solution is to eliminate pulbic ownership of all resources to the greatest extent possible.

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## Dr.3D

So why can't a person be free to get a suntan on the parts of his body gymnophobiacs wish him to keep covered?  Seems there is little if any damage done when a person sits in their own backyard and gets a little sun.

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## Icymudpuppy

There's no sun here.  Nudism is just impracticle, you would get hypothermia in no time.

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## Dr.3D

> There's no sun here.  Nudism is just impracticle, you would get hypothermia in no time.


Even in the summer?    Some places actually have sunshine and 80 degree temperatures.

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## Petar

naked people are gross

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## brandon

No need to outlaw it. Social ostracism alone would keep it to a minimum.

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## specsaregood

> naked people are gross


It's not about other people's impressions, its about the freedom and awesomeness of strolling around in the sun nude.  Little bits of sunshine warming all your naughty parts.   I enjoy being nude outdoors, i dont' care what other people think about it.

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## Dr.3D

> It's not about other people's impressions, its about the freedom and awesomeness of strolling around in the sun nude.  Little bits of sunshine warming all your naughty parts.   I enjoy being nude outdoors, i dont' care what other people think about it.


That seems to be the problem.   So many people consider those parts as naughty.   I'm pretty sure, if they had grown up around nude people all their lives, they wouldn't think anything bad about it.

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## dannno

I hate how the few nude beaches that exist end up getting cracked down on by authorities.. there are so very few of them, they are always way out of the way and there are plenty of non-nude beaches for others to enjoy.

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## Petar

> It's not about other people's impressions, its about the freedom and awesomeness of strolling around in the sun nude.  Little bits of sunshine warming all your naughty parts.   I enjoy being nude outdoors, i dont' care what other people think about it.


See, that is the problem; If your wiener is out loose basking in the sun, then it actually runs the risk of deflecting some of those wiener-tainted photons directly into the very sensitive eyeballs of innocent passerby's.

Be civil, just say no to public eyeball molestation.

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## Icymudpuppy

> Even in the summer?    Some places actually have sunshine and 80 degree temperatures.


Yeah, sure, in August.  Better get all your nudism in while you can!  In fact, I think I shall declare August to be official Nudist month at my next... Hmm, what meetings do I preside over that are mostly attended by attractive females?...

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## dannno

> Hmm, what meetings do I preside over that are mostly attended by attractive females?...


Probably none with all that $#@!ty weather.

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## specsaregood

> See, that is the problem; If your wiener is out loose basking in the sun, then it actually runs the risk of deflecting some of those wiener-tainted photons directly into the very sensitive eyeballs of innocent passerby's.
> Be civil, just say no to public eyeball molestation.


So I can only assume that you also completely avoid public showers, like at a gym?

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## Icymudpuppy

> Probably none with all that $#@!ty weather.


There's always the Kindergarten PTA....

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## dannno

> There's always the Kindergarten PTA....


That's the most appropriate place I can think of to make the announcement.

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## dannno

> So I can only assume that you also completely avoid public showers, like at a gym?


Ya I just went to the gym yesterday and there were a few naked dudes strolling around, but I can't tell you how well endowed they were, because I didn't look.

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## Icymudpuppy

> That's the most appropriate place I can think of to make the announcement.


Well, your average kindergarten parent probably deals with their child running nude already, and I know the teachers get nudist kids in the hallways from time to time.  Why not suggest we join in the fun...

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## dannno

> Well, your average kindergarten parent probably deals with their child running nude already, and I know the teachers get nudist kids in the hallways from time to time.  Why not suggest we join in the fun...

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## Dr.3D

> Ya I just went to the gym yesterday and there were a few naked dudes strolling around, but I can't tell you how well endowed they were, because *I didn't look.*


LOL,  that's what they all say.

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## Fox McCloud

> No need to outlaw it. Social ostracism alone would keep it to a minimum.


 pretty much this, in combination with property rights will eliminate it.

That said...under our current regime of public property? I tend to think that, until its privatized, it's up to the voters.




> That seems to be the problem.   So many people consider those parts as naughty.   I'm pretty sure, if they had grown up around nude people all their lives, they wouldn't think anything bad about it.


Dr. 3D secretly dreams of a nudist society....

Just teasin', of course =p

You do have a point though; there area number of "primitive" tribes where the natives don't wear any clothes, and nothing is really thought about it there.

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## Kludge

I don't buy the argument that psychological trauma in the applicable manner would constitute a crime.

Let's say I am afraid of spiders and you have a pet Goliath Birdeater you keep on your shoulder. I do not notice the spider until a foot from you, panic, shriek, and run somewhere to hide where I stay for an hour. Obviously, it is reasonable to not expect a goliath birdeater on a man's shoulder, and I have suffered, and it would be reasonable to expect the spider owner to understand the prevalence of arachnophobia, but do you really believe the man should face legal consequences because of the victim's disorder?

OTOH, maybe we aren't looking at this fairly. What if a person wears a shirt with rapidly blinking lights which sends another person into a seizure?

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## Flash

> That said...under our current regime of public property? I tend to think that, until its privatized, it's up to the voters.


What do you mean by this? Do you want to live in an ultra-libertarian world where everything is privatized? I can understand that position, but what society has ever accomplished this? Even real-life anarchist societies, like modern day Somalia, have "Common" property that's mutually owned by the neighborhood.

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## Fox McCloud

> What do you mean by this? Do you want to live in an ultra-libertarian world where everything is privatized? I can understand that position, but what society has ever accomplished this? Even real-life anarchist societies, like modern day Somalia, have "Common" property that's mutually owned by the neighborhood.


Sure, I would prefer to live in that society--right now I think the goal should be to work back to a Constitutional Republic first, however (then a Confederacy...then smaller and smaller+more confederacies until we reach a "libertarian society"). In any event, what I mean is...given how the political spectrum currently is, we should push for privatization of public lands, but until those public lands are privatized, I personally think it's fine that the voters decide what you can and cannot do on those public lands.

I realize there would be common property (though I'd suggest Somalia isn't to the point of anarchy yet) in an anarchist society...in this case, the group that homesteaded it would have to meet together and work out what rules they wanted for the property.

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## Flash

> I realize there would be common property (though I'd suggest Somalia isn't to the point of anarchy yet) in an anarchist society...in this case, the group that homesteaded it would have to meet together and work out what rules they wanted for the property.


Yeah this is what I assume will happen. Basically 'nudism' and other types of 'odd' behavior will be tolerated by certain areas and won't be tolerated in other areas. Kinda like we have now. 

And I do agree it's fine for voters to dictate the behavior of people on public property to a certain degree. Like the Westboro Baptist Church case, I'm fine with police intervening and silencing that group. Since in a true libertarian society, people or communities would own the land they're protesting on and wouldn't allow for that type of behavior.

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## Fox McCloud

> Since in a true libertarian society, people or communities would own the land they're protesting on and wouldn't allow for that type of behavior.


I think this is one thing we libertarians need to be careful of---libertarianism isn't and really shouldn't be a complete system of ethics; it never tells us really what we should do, in a given situation, other than we should never use violence/force against someone else. Because of this uniqueness, libertarians are far more diverse than liberals or conservatives; you have people who are libertarians, but are culturally conservative...likewise, you have people who are libertarians, but are very "libertine"; neither are "wrong" per se within the libertarian scope, it's merely how they approach things in the political process.

For example, what sets apart a libertarian cultural conservative and a republican cultural conservative, is that the libertarian will _tolerate_ certain behaviors, lifestyles, and choices people makes, but will not use the power of the state to prohibit such behavior (speaking out against it and attempting to ostracize those who follow a certain lifestyle, though, is perfectly legitimate); a republican cultural conservative, on the other hand, sees behavior he doesn't like and will suggest that it's "immoral" (and it may very well be), and thus the state must prohibit it. 

so...in a libertarian society, it's very very difficult to say whether or not a group like the Westboro Baptists would be able to protest or not.

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## Dr.3D

> snip~
> 
> Dr. 3D secretly dreams of a nudist society....
> 
> Just teasin', of course =p
> 
> You do have a point though; there area number of "primitive" tribes where the natives don't wear any clothes, and nothing is really thought about it there.


And how did it come to pass people from the European contenent decided it was indecent to go around nude?    Again, we have old rules some group thought up, way back when and somehow, they have been passed down like a pair of old tennis shoes in a large family.

People have a cultural bias for what the are used to seeing.   I'm sure those people in the jungles of New Guinna think it looks pretty strange to see a person wearing clothing, especially if that person is the only one doing so for miles around.   It is nice though that they don't arrest that person for being indecent.    I'm sure if a person from that jungle tribe came to the U.S. and went around as he did at home, he would be arrested.   Makes me wonder who is more civilized.

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## hugolp

In Barcelona it is legal to go naked in the street (as long as you are not doing sexual acts).

I remember I use to find an old guy that lived in the central comercial area naked walking in the street. Its not as bad as you think. Its shocks you at first but then you realize its nothing really important. You get used to it and see it as normal.

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## Brian4Liberty

> Recently a thought popped into my mind, an issue which is hardly discussed yet has extreme relevance to freedom and liberty, despite only affected an extremely minute portion of the population who demand nudist rights.


Actually, the topic has been discussed here many times.

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## kpitcher

That movie Welcome to Mooseport with Ray Romano and Gene Hackman had some guy jogging down the middle of the road naked, talking to a few people. Coming from a small community I can understand everyone putting up with a few eccentrics.

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## 00_Pete

Its because of sillyness like this that Libertarian ideology is a LOSERtarian ideology...not because of the ideology itself, but because of the modal-libertarians and their "counter-culture/alternative" bullsh*t.

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## amy31416

> Its because of sillyness like this that Libertarian ideology is a LOSERtarian ideology...not because of the ideology itself, but because of the modal-libertarians and their "counter-culture/alternative" bullsh*t.


I'd rather see some naked people than have anything resembling your ideal of a Palin presidency, where we are bombing the $#@! out of even more ME countries, based on some violent, freakshow "theology" combined with neoconservative bullshittery.

What's more repulsive? A 70 year-old naked dude at a beach or a couple hundred folks with half their face or limbs blown off on the sands of a foreign country?

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## pcosmar

> "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised."





> Naked a man comes from his mother's womb, and as he comes, so he departs. He takes nothing from his labor that he can carry in his hand.


Some folks are far too obsessed with this. I lived in Key West for many years. Nudity and near naked is normal there, and it becomes *NO Big Deal*. 

I find that some really ugly fashion is more offensive.

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## specialK

We have nude beaches here on the West coast of Canada. The cities cannot impose restrictions because they have no legal jurisdiction with beaches being below tide lines, making it federal jurisdiction, and the feds don't give a $#@!. Me, I don't go, because the sight isn't pretty:

[rph mod edit - embedding removed, link goes to image of a horde of nudists frolicking in the sea... not very pretty and not appropriate for embedding on this forum]

http://www.gaycities.com/detail-imag...ach-abf7c.jpeg

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## Son of Detroit

^
What the #$@! Man.  I'm eating here.

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## Agorism

> No need to outlaw it. Social ostracism alone would keep it to a minimum.


+1

Although people would do it still, which I wouldn't bother me.

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## specialK

[rph mod edit - embedding removed, link goes to image of a horde of nudists frolicking in the sea... not very pretty and not appropriate for embedding on this forum]

http://www.gaycities.com/detail-imag...ach-abf7c.jpeg[/QUOTE]

Dear ronpaulhawaii:

While I respect your right to censor as you see see fit on your board, if appropriateness is a factor as you stated, you may wish to also consider removing photos that depict possible child molestation that seem to pass censorship inspection here. Maybe not quite as ugly to some, but more appropriate than fat naked adults? I'm happy to provide a link at your request. Your call.

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## Brett85

The easy answer to this is that people can run around naked as much as they want to on their own private property, but the government can prevent people from doing that if they're on public property.  You don't have the right to run down the street naked.

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## Dr.3D

> The easy answer to this is that people can run around naked as much as they want to on their own private property, but the government can prevent people from doing that if they're on public property.  You don't have the right to run down the street naked.


Well, try to sun your buns on your own property and you may very well end up in jail for "indecent exposure".

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## Brett85

> Well, try to sun your buns on your own property and you may very well end up in jail for "indecent exposure".


Yeah.  Maybe I should've said that people _should have the right to_ run around naked on their own private property.

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## osan

> Recently a thought popped into my mind, an issue which is hardly discussed yet has extreme relevance to freedom and liberty, despite only affected an extremely minute portion of the population who demand nudist rights. 
> 
> Personally, I would hate it if I was walking my daughter around the street one day and suddenly there is a nude old man, yet at the same time I cannot seem to find arguments about why his freedom of expression should be limited. It cannot be simply because I find it immoral and the government needs to force morality on people, or simply because I am offended and demand the government to set up laws that say I cannot be offended.
> 
> Of course he can do this in the privacy of his own home, but should he be allowed to do it in public areas?


If people want to go in the buff, it is their right to do so as it brings harm to nobody.  I hate to pick on christians and those of a similar cloth, but their sensitivities and religious hang-ups regarding nudity and sex are not the problems of the rest of us.  If someone wants to streak down the street, there is no legitimate moral basis for prohibiting it.  There is only force.

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## osan

> You don't have the right to run down the street naked.


What is the basis of your assertion?  What non-arbitrary standard of behavior cites this as prohibited?

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## osan

> As long as there are "public" (i.e. government owned) areas, they will be subject to the arbitrary making and enforcement of laws typical of "public" property.  The solution is to privatize land and allow individuals to do on it as they wish, provided that they cause no demonstrable harm to others.  This way, if a neighbor finds the nudist offensive, he can simply build a wall blocking view of the nude neighbor.


Disagree.  First - things do not HAVE to be this way.  A libertarian-oriented minarchist government would look at the act in question, deem that is harms nobody, and would leave it alone.  Case closed.  THis is called "adult behavior", vis-a-vis the childishly moronic nonsense under which most of the world now suffers.

Privatizing the commons would be a disaster.

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## Son of Detroit

The question is, when does the act of being nude in public infringe on others rights?

Let's say a man with a "not-so-clean" bottom sits down on a bench somewhere and gets fecal matter all over the bench.  Isn't that a hazard to other people?  Or if a woman on her period does the same thing?

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## Kludge

> The question is, when does the act of being nude in public infringe on others rights?
> 
> Let's say a man with a "not-so-clean" bottom sits down on a bench somewhere and gets fecal matter all over the bench.  Isn't that a hazard to other people?  Or if a woman on her period does the same thing?


I was in a Walmart about a year ago with my mom -- she's a case manager for mentally disabled people -- and one of her clients came up to her, so they talked, and she was very loud.... she wanted to loudly complain about the slow progress being made in ousting parasitic worms in her colon... - and she looked at her $#@! and could actually see the worms.

Now imagine this client sitting down on a park bench naked. Do it.

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## Dr.3D

> The question is, when does the act of being nude in public infringe on others rights?
> 
> Let's say a man with a "not-so-clean" bottom sits down on a bench somewhere and gets fecal matter all over the bench.  Isn't that a hazard to other people?  Or if a woman on her period does the same thing?


About as much of a hazard as door knobs.   Wash your hands if you are that worried about it.

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## Fox McCloud

> The question is, when does the act of being nude in public infringe on others rights?
> 
> Let's say a man with a "not-so-clean" bottom sits down on a bench somewhere and gets fecal matter all over the bench.  Isn't that a hazard to other people?  Or if a woman on her period does the same thing?


I hope you realize that this is more a philosophical and theoretical discussion than actual one--it's very highly unlikely we'd see this as long as private property rights are enforced.

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## heavenlyboy34

> Disagree.  First - things do not HAVE to be this way.  A libertarian-oriented minarchist government would look at the act in question, deem that is harms nobody, and would leave it alone.  Case closed.  THis is called "adult behavior", vis-a-vis the childishly moronic nonsense under which most of the world now suffers.
> 
> Privatizing the commons would be a disaster.


To the contrary.  Google "The Tragedy Of The Commons" (here is just one piece on the subject).  Further, Schafer demonstrated in "Boundaries of Order" (available free on mises.org) that public property is a burden to society, and promotes disorder-private ownership of land, however, is civilizing and promotes peaceful order.

See also Block's book "Privatization of Roads and Highways".

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