# Liberty Movement > Defenders of Liberty > Thomas Massie Forum >  Thomas Massie on the Venezuela Crisis

## Swordsmyth

On May 1, 2019, Thomas Massie issued a proclamation on Twitter declaring that any military action in Venezuela must be conducted in a constitutional manner.
 Ever since Venezuelan president Interim President Juan Guaidós attempted uprising on April 30th, 2019, there has been significant chatter about a potential military intervention in the country.
 In an interview with Fox Business, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo did not rule out a military option to deal with the Venezuelan crisis.
 Liberty-minded Representative Thomas Massie commented on the Venezuelan crisis. The Kentucky Congressman stated:
 

 The violence in Venezuela is appalling. I hope both sides can resolve  their differences peacefully. However, if the American people support  engaging in military action in the region, then the Constitution  requires proper congressional approval first.Massie added:
That is why Im an original cosponsor (the only  Republican) of H.R. 1004, a bill that would require congressional  authorization for any military action in Venezuela. You can read H.R.  1004 here: https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/1004?q={%22search%22:[%22H.R.+1004%22]}&r=2&s=1


More at: https://bigleaguepolitics.com/thomas...ezuela-crisis/

----------


## juleswin

> On May 1, 2019, Thomas Massie issued a proclamation on Twitter *declaring that any military action in Venezuela must be conducted in a constitutional manner.*
>  Ever since Venezuelan president Interim President Juan Guaidó’s attempted uprising on April 30th, 2019, there has been significant chatter about a potential military intervention in the country.
>  In an interview with Fox Business, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo did not rule out a military option to deal with the Venezuelan crisis.
>  Liberty-minded Representative Thomas Massie commented on the Venezuelan crisis. The Kentucky Congressman stated:
>  
> 
>  The violence in Venezuela is appalling. I hope both sides can resolve  their differences peacefully. However, if the American people support  engaging in military action in the region, then the Constitution  requires proper congressional approval first.Massie added:
> That is why I’m an original cosponsor (the only  Republican) of H.R. 1004, a bill that would require congressional  authorization for any military action in Venezuela. You can read H.R.  1004 here: https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/1004?q={%22search%22:[%22H.R.+1004%22]}&r=2&s=1
> 
> ...


This is a republic in nutshell. You wanna hold an innocent woman down and rape then kill her? take their guns? violate their freedom of speech? kidnap and torture them? etc etc well just do it in a constitutional way and you are fine. It doesn't even matter that you are not supposed to violate someone's sovereignty who didn't attack you. Just go through the constitutional method and any sin is permissible.  

Btw, this is the best we can get.

----------


## RonZeplin

*Summary: H.R.1004  116th Congress (2019-2020)*

  There is one summary for H.R.1004. Bill summaries are authored by CRS.

*Shown Here:

Introduced in House (02/06/2019)*

*Prohibiting Unauthorized Military Action in Venezuela Act
*
 This  bill prohibits funds made available to federal departments or agencies  from being used to introduce the Armed Forces of the United States into  hostilities with Venezuela, except pursuant to (1) a declaration of war,  (2) a specific statutory authorization that meets the requirements of  the War Powers Resolution and is enacted after the enactment of this  bill, or (3) a national emergency created by attack upon the United  States or the Armed Forces.

*
The correct link for the bill:* https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-...ouse-bill/1004

----------


## Swordsmyth

> This is a republic in nutshell. You wanna hold an innocent woman down and rape then kill her? take their guns? violate their freedom of speech? kidnap and torture them? etc etc well just do it in a constitutional way and you are fine. It doesn't even matter that you are not supposed to violate someone's sovereignty who didn't attack you. Just go through the constitutional method and any sin is permissible.  
> 
> Btw, this is the best we can get.


What would you suggest?
An absolute ban on declaring war?
That won't work out well, every other country will take advantage of you in countless ways.

We can try to structure government in ways that are advantageous to liberty and peace but in the end government is composed of people and people will have to make decisions like whether to declare war or not.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> This is a republic in nutshell. You wanna hold an innocent woman down and rape then kill her? take their guns? violate their freedom of speech? kidnap and torture them? etc etc well just do it in a constitutional way and you are fine. It doesn't even matter that you are not supposed to violate someone's sovereignty who didn't attack you. Just go through the constitutional method and any sin is permissible.  
> 
> Btw, this is the best we can get.


Tell us about the system that is better...

----------


## TheTexan

> Tell us about the system that is better...


What's wrong with this system?  We get to bomb a new country every 2-3 years.

It's great just how it is.

----------


## juleswin

> What would you suggest?
> An absolute ban on declaring war?
> That won't work out well, every other country will take advantage of you in countless ways.
> 
> We can try to structure government in ways that are advantageous to liberty and peace but in the end government is composed of people and people will have to make decisions like whether to declare war or not.


My suggestion would be a system where the govt is not given the opportunity to attack innocent people and countries who are minding their own business. But I am guessing that would be a pipe dream even for a democratic republic. But Massie is essentially calling for mob rule, he wants the people through their reps to debate the merit of war in Venezuela and after that, take a vote where the winner gets to decide. No protection whatsoever offered by the republic would spare then once the majority(if neocons) makes their decision for war.

The problem with democracy is people vote, the problem with a republic is people vote

----------


## RonZeplin

The Senate version seems unconstitutional and unreasonable IMO, total prohibition of President's powers as CIC with regards to Venezuela. 

Sponsor:             Sen. Merkley, Jeff [D-OR] (Introduced 02/28/2019)

Cosponsor
Date Cosponsored

 Sen. Sanders, Bernard [I-VT]
03/25/2019

 Sen. Coons, Christopher A. [D-DE]
04/01/2019




https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-...-resolution/11

----------


## Swordsmyth

> My suggestion would be a system where the govt is not given the opportunity to attack innocent people and countries who are minding their own business.


How?




> But I am guessing that would be a pipe dream even for a democratic republic.


It is unless you can come up with a system and not just a desired result.






> But Massie is essentially calling for mob rule, he wants the people through their reps to debate the merit of war in Venezuela and after that, take a vote where the winner gets to decide. No protection whatsoever offered by the republic would spare then once the majority(if neocons) makes their decision for war.


Massie is trying to throw any speedbump or roadblock he can in the way of war.





> The problem with democracy is people vote, the problem with a republic is people vote


And the problem with any other system is that they don't get to vote.


People are the problem whether it is the voting public or a ruling oligarchy or a monarch, since we can't eliminate people from the equation there will always be a problem that we must struggle against.

----------


## juleswin

> Tell us about the system that is better...


A system that operates under the just war theory. But like I said, that would be too much to ask for. Imagine if I told you that there is a country where the govt routinely rapes and kills their women. But the country doesn't just do it in an uncivilized manner, in this imaginary country, they have a body where representatives voted by the people get to vote on when these women are to be raped and killed. 

I come around and complain how this process is immoral and wrong and then some supporters in that society asks me if I have a better plan. See it doesn't matter if I have a better process or not, wrong is just wrong. There shouldn't be an avenue open for these people to rape a violate any innocent woman.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> A system that operates under the just war theory. But like I said, that would be too much to ask for. Imagine if I told you that there is a country where the govt routinely rapes and kills their women. But the country doesn't just do it in an uncivilized manner, in this imaginary country, they have a body where representatives voted by the people get to vote on when these women are to be raped and killed. 
> 
> I come around and complain how this process is immoral and wrong and then some supporters in that society asks me if I have a better plan. See it doesn't matter if I have a better process or not, wrong is just wrong. There shouldn't be an avenue open for these people to rape a violate any innocent woman.


You are complaining about philosophical issues while blaming a system even though all known systems face the same philosophical problems, until you explain how you can build your system to eliminate the philosophical problems (if such a thing can be done) you are just talking nonsense. (or you are deliberately attacking a system using a fallacy)

----------


## Ender

> This is a republic in nutshell. You wanna hold an innocent woman down and rape then kill her? take their guns? violate their freedom of speech? kidnap and torture them? etc etc well just do it in a constitutional way and you are fine. It doesn't even matter that you are not supposed to violate someone's sovereignty who didn't attack you. Just go through the constitutional method and any sin is permissible.  
> 
> Btw, this is the best we can get.


Massie's going in the right direction on this one.

The US has not engaged in a "constitutional" war since WWII- and even that war would never have happened if the US had stayed out of WWI. 

Every war since then has been from TPTB & called by the POTUS. Congress is supposed to declare war & must have a majority to do so. And a US war is supposed to be defense, not offense. Of course people are tricked into most wars, so having honest statesmen instead of politicians is an important factor in staying out of war.

And a real republic is the best possible way to have a government, unless you are living in Utopia. A democracy is mob rule & complete $#@!, but most don't understand the difference.

Democracy:
2 wolves & 1 lamb deciding what's for dinner.

Republic:
2 wolves & 1 lamb deciding what's for dinner, but lamb's not on the menu.

Massie is working to lead the country back to a real republic.

----------


## Schifference

These days, I don't trust Congress. They have no integrity. They do not have any backbone or values. They change and flip flop like insane people. 

With that said, War should not be decided by the POTUS.

----------


## juleswin

> Massie's going in the right direction on this one.
> 
> The US has not engaged in a "constitutional" war since WWII- and even that war would never have happened if the US had stayed out of WWI. 
> 
> Every war since then has been from TPTB & called by the POTUS. Congress is supposed to declare war & must have a majority to do so. And a US war is supposed to be defense, not offense. Of course people are tricked into most wars, so having honest statesmen instead of politicians is an important factor in staying out of war.
> 
> And a real republic is the best possible way to have a government, unless you are living in Utopia. A democracy is mob rule & complete $#@!, but most don't understand the difference.
> 
> Democracy:
> ...


Republic is a 2 wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner. That sounds all fine and dandy until you realize that the item on the menu is a sheep named Venezuela who did nothing to the 2 wolves and sheep deciding and then you understand how silly the so called difference between a democracy and a republic is. They are the same thing. Even in a republic, u get enough wolves on the table and you will be able to put all the sheep on the menu. Its all a numbers game. All the rights protected by a republic can be repealed if the mob is big enough. 

I do understand putting up some speed bumps against govt aggression and its benefits but the fact that they still have the ability to do it worries me. Another part that annoys me is this belief that if its done in a constitutional manner it is OK. I don't care how its done but attacking a country who did nothing to us is wrong. This is why I compare it to hold an innocent woman down raping and then killing her, every body understands that doing that is wrong no matter how we come about that decision.

I would like people like Massie to make it clear that regardless of what method is used, launching a military attack on Venezuela for minding their own dam business is wrong. Btw, attack against Germany during WWII was also wrong, the fact that it was declared means nothing to me.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> ...
> We can try to structure government in ways that are advantageous to liberty and peace but in the end government is composed of people and people will have to make decisions like whether to declare war or not.


That.




> My suggestion would be a system where the govt is not given the opportunity to attack innocent people and countries who are minding their own business. But I am guessing that would be a pipe dream even for a democratic republic. But Massie is essentially calling for mob rule, he wants the people through their reps to debate the merit of war in Venezuela and after that, take a vote where the winner gets to decide. No protection whatsoever offered by the republic would spare then once the majority(if neocons) makes their decision for war.
> 
> The problem with democracy is people vote, the problem with a republic is people vote


Sorry, eliminating people from the equation is not an option. The problem is abuse of power.

Why does the “leadership” of a nation engage in war? Because they can. Why does Venezuela not engage in direct war against other nations? Because they can’t.

Massie is doing whatever he can, and a dedication to the rule of law is one way to limit war. The majority of “leadership” has no problem violating the law, thus the problem.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> I would like people like Massie to make it clear that regardless of what method is used, launching a military attack on Venezuela for minding their own dam business is wrong. Btw, attack against Germany during WWII was also wrong, the fact that it was declared means nothing to me.


Rest assured, Massie would not vote for military action against Venezuela.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> This is a republic in nutshell. You wanna hold an innocent woman down and rape then kill her? take their guns? violate their freedom of speech? kidnap and torture them? etc etc well just do it in a constitutional way and you are fine.


How can you get all that from what Massie said?

----------


## invisible

Nice to see Massie trying to throw a wrench into trump's NWO foreign policy!

----------


## juleswin

> Rest assured, Massie would not vote for military action against Venezuela.


I hope so, but he says it like he would be OK with it if such a bill passes. That part worries me. Wrong is wrong and it doesn't matter the methods used to achieve it, due process, congress, arbitration etc etc

----------


## juleswin

> How can you get all that from what Massie said?


For the most part yes.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> I hope so, but he says it like he would be OK with it if such a bill passes. That part worries me. Wrong is wrong and it doesn't matter the methods used to achieve it, due process, congress, arbitration etc etc


You can’t vote “no” if there is no vote, thus Massie wants a constitutionally required vote.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> For the most part yes.


That's absurd.

I'm not even sure what provision in the Constitution you think empowers the federal government to rape and kill women. But whatever you had in mind, obviously Massie wasn't talking about that. He was appealing to the Constitution as a means of reigning the government in by demanding that Trump keep his oath of office and not wage war without a declaration of war made by Congress, and respecting other similar constitutional limitations, not giving it a license to rape women or do anything else.

----------


## juleswin

> That.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, eliminating people from the equation is not an option. The problem is abuse of power.
> 
> _Why does the “leadership” of a nation engage in war? Because they can_. Why does Venezuela not engage in direct war against other nations? Because they can’t.
> 
> Massie is doing whatever he can, and a dedication to the rule of law is one way to limit war. The majority of “leadership” has no problem violating the law, thus the problem.



Why does the wolf eat the sheep? because it can. We are back to square one, I am criticizing the whole idea spread around here that republic is so much better that a democracy when they are virtually the same. All republics that have ever existed are democracies. 

Btw, good for him for trying. I just think he is giving minimal effort in the task which sadly is better than anyone else on the republican side. I would like him to speak more like Tulsi, not just ask for the govt to follow the processs but speaking about how wrong the plan is. We should have no business fighting Venezuelans.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> I am criticizing the whole idea spread around here that republic is so much better that a democracy when they are virtually the same.


By all means keep making that point. I completely agree. But I don't see how that applies to Massie.

----------


## juleswin

> That's absurd.
> 
> I'm not even sure what provision in the Constitution you think empowers the federal government to rape and kill women. But whatever you had in mind, obviously Massie wasn't talking about that. He was appealing to the Constitution as a means of reigning the government in by demanding that Trump keep his oath of office and not wage war without a declaration of war made by Congress, and respecting other similar constitutional limitations, not giving it a license to rape women or do anything else.


You miss the point, its a vote to do something far worse than holding down an innocent woman, rape her and the kill her. War against an innocent nation who hasn't done anything to you is far worse than that. But as we know it, there is a constitutional process by which the people by way of their representatives can vote to commit this heinous act. And Massie is acting like he would be just OK with it as long as the proper method is used. 

I am not OK with it

----------


## Superfluous Man

> You miss the point, its a vote to do something far worse than holding down an innocent woman, rape her and the kill her.


Which part of Massie's quote indicates that he would vote to do that?

----------


## juleswin

> Which part of Massie's quote indicates that he would vote to do that?


He supports the vote to decide if the US should start a war in Venezuela. Now imagine him saying something like this




> The violence in Morrison household is appalling. I hope both sides can resolve their differences peacefully. However, if the American people support engaging in rapey action in the Morrison's household, then the Constitution requires proper congressional approval first.


That would be a "hell no" from me, you do not have the right to rape anyone no matter the process used. Full stop. But Massie seems to be OK with the vote which I believe would likely pass.

----------


## angelatc

> Tell us about the system that is better...

----------


## juleswin

> 


Aww Angeltc, the past 2 days must have been really rough for u. Your blood thirty imperialist mercs failed in their attempt to take over and dominate another independent country. Don't give up hope, drop the razor blade cos the US govt just like a powerful and determined rapist doesn't take no for an answer. They will pressing until they penetrate their victim. At that point, you can pop your champagne and celebrate.

The weak are meat for the strong to eat, that is the sad reality of life. It makes no difference if the nation eating is democratic, republic or a mix of both.

----------


## Ender

> Republic is a 2 wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner. That sounds all fine and dandy until you realize that the item on the menu is a sheep named Venezuela who did nothing to the 2 wolves and sheep deciding and then you understand how silly the so called difference between a democracy and a republic is. They are the same thing. Even in a republic, u get enough wolves on the table and you will be able to put all the sheep on the menu. Its all a numbers game. All the rights protected by a republic can be repealed if the mob is big enough. 
> 
> I do understand putting up some speed bumps against govt aggression and its benefits but the fact that they still have the ability to do it worries me. Another part that annoys me is this belief that if its done in a constitutional manner it is OK. I don't care how its done but attacking a country who did nothing to us is wrong. This is why I compare it to hold an innocent woman down raping and then killing her, every body understands that doing that is wrong no matter how we come about that decision.
> 
> I would like people like Massie to make it clear that regardless of what method is used, launching a military attack on Venezuela for minding their own dam business is wrong. Btw, attack against Germany during WWII was also wrong, the fact that it was declared means nothing to me.


I agree- but the problem is NOT a real republic- the problem is TPTB making their own rules. Massie is trying to educate people back to original intent. THAT is a move in the right direction.

----------


## Todd

Whether you like Maduro or not.   This is an honest assessment:




> Maduro is no fool: he knows that the people are not interested in being ruled by foreign masters. The same nationalist sentiment that’s sweeping the world, from France to Grand Fenwick, resists foreign “liberation” – especially coming from the Americans. The Venezuelans are not about to surrender an inch of their sovereignty even if it means a permanent lack of toilet paper.

----------


## invisible

> Whether you like Maduro or not.   This is an honest assessment:


This isn't about socialism or Maduro, it's about trump's NWO foreign policy.

----------


## Todd

> This isn't about socialism or Maduro, it's about trump's NWO foreign policy.


Try to tell some here that.  Some here are all for the Trump intervention.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> This isn't about socialism or Maduro, it's about trump's NWO foreign policy.


Do you mind me asking where you guys get this stuff? Is there some sort of guide book being handed out that has talking points which are exactly 180 degrees from reality?

----------


## invisible

Are you actually attempting to deny that trump is expanding bush and obomba's NWO regime change foreign policy in Venezuela?  Perhaps you'll attempt to deny that the Yemen veto happened, or the hiring of NWO neocons like bolton and abrams?

----------


## ATruepatriot

> Are you actually attempting to deny that trump is expanding bush and obomba's NWO regime change foreign policy in Venezuela?  Perhaps you'll attempt to deny that the Yemen veto happened, or the hiring of NWO neocons like bolton and abrams?


When using the term NWO it is much much more complex than this. First we did not start the mess in Venezuela. The NWO and Venezuela did before we ever got involved. And Trump is too trusting in the advice he is being handed which is a huge mistake on his part. I really don't think he is wise enough to understand the full scope of what foreign relations actually consists of but I seriously do not think is making these mistakes with intent. I think he is ill advised, ignorant, and too trusting now at this point in the game. The PTB and MIC never expected someone like him who has no loyal ties to the shadow NWO government and now they are pulling out all the stops to get control of it again after he threw some wrenches in the works fouling their program. If he is guilty of anything concerning the NWO, it would be ignorance of the whole establishment that has been actually running this country since WWII and that they think they are in control.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> And Trump is too trusting in the advice he is being handed which is a huge mistake on his part. I really don't think he is wise enough to understand the full scope of what foreign relations actually consists of but I seriously do not think is making these mistakes with intent.


None of us can read his mind. But his intentions are irrelevant.

His interventionist foreign policy is what it is, and his decision to populate his administration with neoconservatives is what it is.

He doesn't get a pass because somebody thinks he's a good guy deep down.

----------


## juleswin

> I agree- but the problem is NOT a real republic- the problem is TPTB making their own rules. Massie is trying to educate people back to original intent. THAT is a move in the right direction.


The US is a real republic, regardless of what you think about TPTB, any republic end up with avenues by which any right it claims to protect can be violated using mechanisms that are well within its bylaws. The republic is not the problem but rather the attack and/or threatening a country who has done nothing to you. Massie should be preaching for  nonintervention not just that we follow the process.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> None of us can read his mind. But his intentions are irrelevant.
> 
> His interventionist foreign policy is what it is, and his decision to populate his administration with neoconservatives is what it is.
> 
> He doesn't get a pass because somebody thinks he's a good guy deep down.


I think he is just out of his league, As is everyone one in congress on all sides. It is all much bigger and more powerful than any of them, or any of us.

----------


## Schifference

> I think he is just out of his league, As is everyone one in congress on all sides. It is all much bigger and more powerful than any of them, or any of us.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ATruepatriot again.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ATruepatriot again.


It all needs to be assessed after this persistent prerequisite reality is considered first. It greatly changes the whole perspective and explains quite a bit up front about why things are what they are.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Why does the wolf eat the sheep? because it can. We are back to square one, I am criticizing the whole idea spread around here that republic is so much better that a democracy when they are virtually the same. All republics that have ever existed are democracies. 
> 
> Btw, good for him for trying. I just think he is giving minimal effort in the task which sadly is better than anyone else on the republican side. I would like him to speak more like Tulsi, not just ask for the govt to follow the processs but speaking about how wrong the plan is. We should have no business fighting Venezuelans.


Just because a republic is not perfect doesn't mean it isn't better than a democracy.
There is no perfect system and a republic is much better than a democracy.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Try to tell some here that.  Some here are all for the Trump intervention.


I only know of one person here who is for the intervention.

----------


## juleswin

> I only know of one person here who is for the intervention.


The angel of death?

----------


## juleswin

> Just because a republic is not perfect doesn't mean it isn't better than a democracy.
> There is no perfect system and a republic is much better than a democracy.


They are one and the same, we have a republic that uses a democratic system to vote on laws and elect its representatives.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> The angel of death?


No, and I'm not going to rat them out, they posted open support for it but if they don't want to repeat it I'm not going to name them.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> They are one and the same, we have a republic that uses a democratic system to vote on laws and elect its representatives.


That doesn't make them one and the same, a republic need not include a democratic element but even if you assume that it does it is more than a democracy.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> They are one and the same, we have a republic that uses a democratic system to vote on laws and elect its representatives.


lol...

----------


## juleswin

> That doesn't make them one and the same, a republic need not include a democratic element but even if you assume that it does it is more than a democracy.


Good point made, so its still a democracy with designed around a republic.

----------


## juleswin

> No, and I'm not going to rat them out, they posted open support for it but if they don't want to repeat it I'm not going to name them.


I think I know who it is.

----------


## TheTexan

> Just because a republic is not perfect doesn't mean it isn't better than a democracy.
> There is no perfect system and a republic is much better than a democracy.


It's like way better than a democracy.  In a republic you get to vote for people who vote for people who vote.   In a democracy, you only get to vote for people who vote.

Two completely different things.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> I think I know who it is.


If you are thinking me... It's not me... I am Anti Hegelian Dialectic, Anti CIA, Anti FBI, Anti MIC, Anti Fed, Anti NWO, (the real one) and Anti War straight up. But the self defense of my Grandchildren's future in this country I take VERY seriously...

----------


## ATruepatriot

> It's like way better than a democracy.  In a republic you get to vote for people who vote for people who vote.   In a democracy, you only get to vote for people who vote.
> 
> Two completely different things.


Lol...

----------


## juleswin

> If you are thinking me... It's not me... I am Anti Hegelian Dialectic, Anti CIA, Anti FBI, Anti MIC, Anti Fed, Anti NWO, (the real one) and Anti War straight up. But the self defense of my Grandchildren's future in this country I take VERY seriously...


Not you, I know you hate socialism to the point that you will probably turn a blind eye to US destruction of the country but I am thinking 







All clues to the people I suspect

----------


## ATruepatriot

> Not you, I know you hate socialism to the point that you will probably turn a blind eye to US destruction of the country but I am thinking 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All clues to the people I suspect


Socialism bad... Meritocracy good.

----------


## invisible

> I only know of one person here who is for the intervention.


But here:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...7-Here%92s-Why



> I oppose foreign intervention but Trump is doing more good than harm and he is certainly doing less harm than any of the viable alternatives would have done or will do.
> I've said it many times and I'll say it again: Let me know if a better option comes along.


How can someone say they're against trump's NWO foreign policy, and then claim that it's "doing more good than harm", along with offering the same old lesser of two evils crap?  Obviously, no credibility whatsoever.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> But here:
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...7-Here%92s-Why
> 
> 
> How can someone say they're against trump's NWO foreign policy, and then claim that it's "doing more good than harm", along with offering the same old lesser of two evils crap?  Obviously, no credibility whatsoever.


Foreign policy is not the only thing that Trump does and Trump has changed our foreign policy for the better too, under the previous administration or under Hitlery or any of the viable challengers our foreign policy would be mush worse than it is.

----------


## Todd

> Are you actually attempting to deny that trump is expanding bush and obomba's NWO regime change foreign policy in Venezuela?  Perhaps you'll attempt to deny that the Yemen veto happened, or the hiring of NWO neocons like bolton and abrams?


Some people have no ability to do institutional analysis and must resort to the slander of "conspiracy".   For them it must always be in black and white and written down.

----------


## Todd

> I only know of one person here who is for the intervention.


I'll wager if I made a post or a thread condemning complete intervention in Venezuala it would be met with one of the following:  1. Crickets  2.  Condemnation   3.  Subtle "meh"....or posts trying to counter a complete condemnation with how it's not that bad.....from multiple people on this forum.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> I'll wager if I made a post or a thread condemning complete intervention in Venezuala it would be met with one of the following:  1. Crickets


That is often the result when you state the obvious but I doubt it in this case because there are quite a few posters here who not only agree with you but post nearly obsessively about it. 






> 2.  Condemnation


LOL





> 3.  Subtle "meh"....or posts trying to counter a complete condemnation with how it's not that bad.....from multiple people on this forum.


You don't come here often, do you?
You certainly haven't been reading the Venezuela threads.

----------


## eleganz

> Are you actually attempting to deny that trump is expanding bush and obomba's NWO regime change foreign policy in Venezuela?  Perhaps you'll attempt to deny that the Yemen veto happened, or the hiring of NWO neocons like bolton and abrams?


This is silly.  The left thinks Trump is a Russian puppet.  You (and likely some others here) think Trump is the "NWO's" puppet.

To be perfectly honest with you, he isnt either.  The only person Trump cares about is himself and that makes him entirely predictable.  He wants to go down as a great president (to his base) and he will do what he feels will achieve that.

Its important to remind yourselves that Trump is not a libertarian and he never pretended to be.

----------


## juleswin

> This is silly.  The left thinks Trump is a Russian puppet.  You (and likely some others here) think Trump is the "NWO's" puppet.
> 
> To be perfectly honest with you, he isnt either.  The only person Trump cares about is himself and that makes him entirely predictable.  He wants to go down as a great president (to his base) and he will do what he feels will achieve that.
> 
> Its important to remind yourselves that Trump is not a libertarian and he never pretended to be.


I know some morons on this forum gave him the moniker of "Ron Paul on steroids" but yea, he is definitely no libertarian. He is a conservative leaning president and there is nothing wrong with that.

The problem is that he lied during the campaign saying he was non interventionist when he is not. He could have withdrawn US troops from Syria after the battle for ISIS was over but he did not. We have more troops in Syria now than when Obama was president. 

Also, think of the NWO, the people have created the refugee crisis in the middle east and then think of the people he surrounds himself with. If hes not a NWO puppet then he is for some bizarre reason doing their bidding.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> I know some morons on this forum gave him the moniker of "Ron Paul on steroids" but yea, he is definitely no libertarian. He is a conservative leaning president and there is nothing wrong with that.
> 
> The problem is that he lied during the campaign saying he was non interventionist when he is not. He could have withdrawn US troops from Syria after the battle for ISIS was over but he did not. We have more troops in Syria now than when Obama was president. 
> 
> Also, think of the NWO, the people have created the refugee crisis in the middle east and then think of the people he surrounds himself with. If hes not a NWO puppet then he is for some bizarre reason doing their bidding.


He is more noninterventionist than the alternatives or we would already be in several more wars instead of being on the way to removing the troops from Syria and Afghanistan.

He is not a NWO puppet but the government is full of them and he must make deals with them in order to get things done and stay alive and unimpeached.

----------


## RonZeplin

President Trump has a button on his desk that he pushes for another fix of Javanka Juice.

----------


## juleswin

> He is more noninterventionist than the alternatives or we would already be in several more wars instead of being on the way to removing the troops from Syria and Afghanistan.
> 
> He is not a NWO puppet but the government is full of them and he must make deals with them in order to get things done and stay alive and unimpeached.


He appeared more anti interventionist than the alternative but in reality they are virtually the same. The candidate you thought was a worse alt would have continued the fight with Russia and her allies plus the war with Venezuela and Iran. Just like Trump is doing now.

He may not be a NWO puppet but he has continued with his agenda.

----------


## invisible

> He is more noninterventionist than the alternatives or we would already be in several more wars instead of being on the way to removing the troops from Syria and Afghanistan.
> 
> He is not a NWO puppet but the government is full of them and he must make deals with them in order to get things done and stay alive and unimpeached.


Let's keep the comedy rolling!  The turd sandwich sure tastes better than the shyt stew, just keep trotting out that lesser of two evils garbage often enough and some just might fall for it.  No, trump isn't a NWO puppet, he just happened to hire a cabinet full of them by mere coincidence, and is somehow being forced to do their bidding and act as a NWO puppet.  LOL!


So, for the shylls that are attempting to claim that trump's NWO regime change foreign policy isn't an NWO regime change foreign policy, I'll spoon feed it to you.  After all, we wouldn't want anyone to remain willfully ignorant and uninformed of this fact, would we?

http://www.alt-market.com/articles/3...d-order-agenda



> After two years of witnessing Trump in action, it is clear to me that he is an active participant in the new world order agenda, and not just an unwitting patsy for the economic crisis.





> Trump’s first action upon entering the White House was to invite multiple “swamp creatures” into his cabinet, going against his core campaign promise. This was not all that surprising considering his past.
> 
> Trump was saved in the 1990s by Rothchild banking agent Wilber Ross, who bailed him out of his debts tied up in his failing Taj Mahal casino. Wilber Ross is now Trump’s commerce secretary. I ask, who is Trump going to be loyal to? The American people, who can offer him nothing of consequence, or the Rothschilds, who saved his public image and his billion-dollar empire?
> 
> Trump is also currently “advised” by the likes of Steven Mnuchin formerly of Goldman Sachs, Larry Kudlow formerly of the New York Fed, and John Bolton of the CFR, among others.



http://www.alt-market.com/articles/3...want-to-happen



> But how could the banking elites and globalists possibly predict Trump's behavior in order to take advantage of it? Well, if you look at Trump's background as well as the number of elites he has placed within his own cabinet, the reality if the situation becomes clear: Trump is a puppet, and always has been.





> The globalists don't have to predict Trump's behavior, they dictate Trump's behavior. Thus, the false left/right paradigm reigns supreme once again; the same paradigm many Trump followers thought they were escaping by rallying against a Clinton presidency.



https://www.veteranstoday.com/2019/0...nezuela-again/



> Guaido wants to be a US puppet; he has already been a thorough ideologue who has submitted his will to the stuff that makes up the New World Order.


https://www.mintpressnews.com/leaked...eapons/254708/



> the U.S. Army states that major global financial institutions — such as the World Bank, International Monetary Fund (IMF), and the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) — are used as unconventional, financial “weapons in times of conflict up to and including large-scale general war,” as well as in leveraging “the policies and cooperation of state governments.”


https://www.mintpressnews.com/watch-...ezuela/257396/



> Here are the top five special interest groups and institutions that seek to benefit from the U.S. backed coup in Venezuela.





> Number 1: The International Monetary Fund (IMF), which wants to saddle the Venezuelan people with enormous debt to the IMF





> The trojan horse for the return of neoliberalism in Venezuela, Juan Guaidó, stated that he’s going to borrow money from the IMF to fund his government, which would make all Venezuelans indebted to this predatory institution. Guaidó spends the money, the poor and working people work to pay taxes that pay off the principal and the interest.
> 
> This is why the IMF’s standard “structural adjustment program” is based on the so-called Washington Consensus, a set of 10 economic policies entirely concocted by U.S. think tanks, the IMF, the World Bank and the Treasury Department.


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/...185902069.html
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/...195030646.html



> Newly installed World Bank Group president David Malpass said on Thursday that the development lender is preparing to become "deeply involved" in Venezuela, "but the situation is still troublesome on the ground".
> 
> Speaking at a press conference on the opening day of the joint World Bank and International Monetary Fund (IMF) spring meetings, Malpass said that Venezuela is a "deep concern" for the World Bank



And here's a couple more links exposing the NWO globalist backgrounds of quite a few of the behind the scenes figures:
https://www.mintpressnews.com/whos-b...-in-dc/258533/
https://thegrayzone.com/2019/04/13/u...csis-invasion/

Remember that attempting to excuse trump's NWO regime change foreign policy is nothing less than directly opposing Ron Paul, and his statements that sanctions are an act of war and that foreign policy needs to follow the Golden Rule.  Hopefully Massie is successful in throwing a wrench into the gears.

----------


## juleswin

> Let's keep the comedy rolling!  The turd sandwich sure tastes better than the shyt stew, just keep trotting out that lesser of two evils garbage often enough and some just might fall for it.  No, trump isn't a NWO puppet, he just happened to hire a cabinet full of them by mere coincidence, and is somehow being forced to do their bidding and act as a NWO puppet.  LOL!
> 
> 
> So, for the shylls that are attempting to claim that trump's NWO regime change foreign policy isn't an NWO regime change foreign policy, I'll spoon feed it to you.  After all, we wouldn't want anyone to remain willfully ignorant and uninformed of this fact, would we?
> 
> http://www.alt-market.com/articles/3...d-order-agenda
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I dunno if this would be enough for his supporters seeing as we still have the theory that he may still be trying to play 3D chess with the NWO. 

See he ran an anti NWO campaign to win the presidency but seeing as the NWO ppl are short memoried stupid people, he would now try to trick them by pretending now that he is pro NWO. Personally if I was gonna play tricks, I would play my tricks on the NWO to get power and only after then would I reveal my true intention. 

But what do I know

----------


## Swordsmyth

> He appeared more anti interventionist than the alternative but in reality they are virtually the same. The candidate you thought was a worse alt would have continued the fight with Russia and her allies plus the war with Venezuela and Iran. Just like Trump is doing now.
> 
> He may not be a NWO puppet but he has continued with his agenda.


Hitlery would have had us at war with Russia over Crimea and would be accelerating our involvement in Syria and Afghanistan while probably also starting all out wars in Venezuela and Iran and possibly other places.

Trump is not starting actual wars and he is moving us towards withdrawal in Syria and Afghanistan.

----------


## invisible

trump's NWO regime change foreign policy is unacceptable, and repetitively being told that the turd sandwich you're selling tastes better than the shyt stew doesn't change that.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> trump's NWO regime change foreign policy is unacceptable, and repetitively being told that the turd sandwich you're selling tastes better than the shyt stew doesn't change that.


Give me a better option and I'll take it but until then I'd rather be poisoned slowly so that I have a chance to live long enough to stop it over being poisoned quickly.

Trump isn't just reducing the damage either, he is turning us closer to the right direction.

----------


## invisible

Claiming that trump's NWO regime change foreign policy is somehow "turning us closer to the right direction" is nothing less than direct opposition to Ron Paul and Thomas Massie.  Right here on RPF, in your face, fully sanctioned by the site owner and mods.  

Hopefully Massie is able to put a stop to this.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Claiming that trump's NWO regime change foreign policy is somehow "turning us closer to the right direction" is nothing less than direct opposition to Ron Paul and Thomas Massie.  Right here on RPF, in your face, fully sanctioned by the site owner and mods.  
> 
> Hopefully Massie is able to put a stop to this.


LOL

----------


## osan

Have I missed something, or have we no business in Venezuela?

I seem to recall some far worse things having gone on in Rwanda, yet I recall no hand wringing about the horrors there that make Venezuela look like a circle jerk.

----------

