# Lifestyles & Discussion > Freedom Living >  Stealth Van Dwelling

## Elwar

http://www.stealthvandweller.com/

So I got bored and tried to figure out what I would do if I just dropped all of the property ownership stuff and just up and lived out of my vehicle.

I would still be working, likely at the same office but instead of the 2+ hours per day commute, I would park somewhere and ride a motorcycle into work.

This means I would need a shower in the vehicle. 

I was looking at this:
http://sportsmobile.com/2_sr_vaninfo10.html

It has a shower, bed, extendable roof, A/C and solar panels.

There is an option to make room for a small motorcycle:
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/

This is a motorcycle that takes 9kWh to fully charge to allow for up to 115 mile range.

I checked out the dimensions of the most efficient solar panels out there:
http://us.sunpowercorp.com/homes/pro.../solar-panels/
I would be able to fit 4 330W panels on the roof giving about 7-9kWh of electricity on a sunny day which could run most of the appliances and charge the bike up most of the way.

I could park the motorcycle outside the van most nights and if I needed to relocate or drive into work it could pop right up into the van while I drive.


Just dreaming a bit.

My options are all pretty expensive though. Not really the mentality of most who choose to live out of their vans.

And I would be tied to one location which is also counter to the whole reason to live in something that can move around freely.

I do have a buddy who lives out of his van with solar panels and he is able to enjoy a lot of free time. But he lives mainly off of the government.

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## Dr.3D

> I would be able to fit 4 330W panels on the roof giving about 7-9kWh of electricity on a sunny day which could run most of the appliances and charge the bike up most of the way.


Don't forget, if it's charging the motorcycle, it won't be charging any other batteries or running any appliances.  You would need more panels if you wanted to run anything at night or during the time you are charging the motorcycle.

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## kathy88

I can work anywhere there's an internet connection. A camper would suit me fine, if I were single.

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## Acala

At first I thought the title of the post was a person's name.

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## RDM

Might want to check out this sight for solar.

http://www.campingworld.com/category/rv-solar-power/221

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## Lindsey

I have been looking at Sportsmobiles lately too.  New, they are in the $80K+ range for a Sprinter and in the $50K+ range for a Ford/Chevy.  On top of that, when I priced insurance it was over $400/month;  so for me that would still mean a lot of obligation.  Personally, I think finding a low-mileage used cargo van in the $7-10K range and doing the build myself, is an option that would allow much more freedom. 

Why do you need a motorcycle,  why not just drive the van to your work location?  The Sprinter's get 20ish mpg.  No one has to know you are living in there, unless you tell them. 

The sportsmobiles do seem awesome, but there are a lot of other options too. Currently on Sportsmobile Forum there is a thread there by a poster named Chumley, detailing a harrowing build experience. You may also want to check out OutsideVan for some cool Sprinter Conversions.  If it's the penthouse that is drawing you to Sportsmobile, there's another company that is supposedly comparable, Colorado Camper Van.  And there are lots of companies that do the 4x4 conversions, such as Quigley in PA.  For a more RV-like feel, Leisure Travel Van, Great West Vans, Roadtrek, etc offer comparable options.  You can also rent a van to test out whether you'd like van living. A company that has Great West/Roadtrek vans for rent is Good to U Auto Center in Lancaster County, PA. Campervan NorthAmerica is a company in Vegas & Utah/Idaho that rents Sportsmobile-converted Sprinters.

You may also want to join the Yahoo Van Dweller's group - there is a lot of full-timing van dwellers on there. There's lots of videos on YouTube of full-time van dwellers showing off their vans too.

Whatever you decide,  have fun and enjoy the freedom of a lack of a homestead!

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## Elwar

> I have been looking at Sportsmobiles lately too.  New, they are in the $80K+ range for a Sprinter and in the $50K+ range for a Ford/Chevy.  On top of that, when I priced insurance it was over $400/month;  so for me that would still mean a lot of obligation.  Personally, I think finding a low-mileage used cargo van in the $7-10K range and doing the build myself, is an option that would allow much more freedom. 
> 
> Why do you need a motorcycle,  why not just drive the van to your work location?  The Sprinter's get 20ish mpg.  No one has to know you are living in there, unless you tell them.


I figured that a motorcycle would allow for settling in a bit easier for a few days so I do not have to pack everything up every night for a road trip, I can just hop on the motorcycle in the morning and come back. Also if I want to go out for the evening to a restaurant or into town it would be more convenient.


I did read Chumley's thread. Seemed exciting to be able to customize from the ground up.

My friend who converted his van did it all on his own. He was able to learn a lot about solar. He said just two panels was plenty for him.

As far as the 4 panels not being able to charge everything including a full charge on the motorcycle, the full charge is required for 114 miles on the motorcycle. Like I said, I would park close to work so I would imagine there would only be a small amount the motorcycle would need to be charged.

But they also mention that the A/C can not run very long on solar and you would have to switch to the generator.

Like I said, mainly just dreaming at this point. It would seem like a better idea if I had a job working online. Doing it while having a day job is sorta like trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

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## Origanalist

I would probably start out with something like this



and end up with something like this

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## Tod

That could work in some places, but in other areas it would be very difficult.

On a trip to the northeast, I was dismayed by the difficulty in finding a place to park a van overnight.  Everywhere, signs "no parking 11 pm to 6 am" and stuff like that.  This was especially the case in Massachussettes.

In Connecticut and New Hampshire on two different occasions I spent the night in a used car lot because I couldn't find anywhere else to park.

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## Elwar

> That could work in some places, but in other areas it would be very difficult.
> 
> On a trip to the northeast, I was dismayed by the difficulty in finding a place to park a van overnight.  Everywhere, signs "no parking 11 pm to 6 am" and stuff like that.  This was especially the case in Massachussettes.
> 
> In Connecticut and New Hampshire on two different occasions I spent the night in a used car lot because I couldn't find anywhere else to park.


From what I have seen, Walmart is very welcoming to people staying the night in their parking lots. The only time this is not the case is when local ordinances do not allow it.

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## Expatriate

> At first I thought the title of the post was a person's name.


Same here... I was picturing some guy with a monocle who was an expert on sneaking into places.

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## pcosmar

> At first I thought the title of the post was a person's name.


*VanDwelling*,,  wasn't he the hero in a Zombie Hunter movie?

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## youngbuck

> I figured that a motorcycle would allow for settling in a bit easier for a few days so I do not have to pack everything up every night for a road trip, I can just hop on the motorcycle in the morning and come back.


I definitely agree with you on this.  Do you have your motorcycle license/endorsement (whatever it's called in FL)?

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## Dr.3D

> *VanDwelling*,,  wasn't he the hero in a Zombie Hunter movie?


That that was some guy driving a diesel van.

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## Simple

Why the van? Buy a used truck and find a camper for it unless you just want to buy that bling bling Mercedes for low income housing.

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## Elwar

> I definitely agree with you on this.  Do you have your motorcycle license/endorsement (whatever it's called in FL)?


I do not have a license but could probably get one easy enough. A little "garage" like this would be very convenient.

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## youngbuck

> I do not have a license but could probably get one easy enough.


Yea, they're easy to get, but if you plan on following through with something like this, you might as well get the ball rolling.  You just don't want to get caught riding without one.

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## flailer

Hi, i have successfully lived much like Elwar covered in his opening post.  

Key Points (that I read):  Sell everything; Stealth living; Status still Important; Job, but Simple low-cost Living; Freedom of road; Space for toys/motorcycle; shower, toilet, bed, kitchen, & solar panels.  

Factual starting points: 
1. Expensive hardware (van etc) helps stealthiness on public streets as it lends Status & Credibility; it also makes one a HUGE target among the homeless. 
2. Hanging Motorcycles, Bicycles, BBQ, Rope, ladders, etc, on the outside of your van GREATLY *decreases stealthiness, & status. It also greatly *increases one as a target.  
3. a small solar panel is a very good idea, if the amount of sunshine in your area allows you to keep from having to plug in and recharge van / rv batteries. 

My Personal Facts: 
1. i have lived in a small small RV for up to 4 months at a time, several times, by choice, over the last few years, and it was GREAT!!! 
2. a bed is first and foremost. a toilet is more important than a cooking kitchen, and believe it or not, a cooking kitchen is more important than a shower to me. 
3. Elwar is correct; another mode of transport is an EXCELLENT EXCELLENT idea.  But a Zero brand motorcycle is a BAD idea, in my opinion, for my case.  P.C. business (job) issues may dictate otherwise (and yes i rode my motorcycle, from my parked RV, to Zero showroom, parked gas powered bike, and test rode their battery powered units, which are very impressive by the way, but really suck on distance and recharging issues).  If a bicycle, or moped, does not lend enough status, then consider looking towards the "Enduro" (supermoto) style of motorcycle as they load well inside or outside your van. 
4. a health club membership is a WONDERFUL thing to have in these situations!!  Look for one with generous open hours, showers, lockerooms, towel service, a lounge with TV, a hot tub, steam room, classes, coffee service, maybe food bar too, spin class, basketball courts, swimming pool.... and you get the idea: *They are frickin country clubs* costing only a buck a day!!  
5. food storage is easy.  The trick is to stay organized (in a small space) and to buy stuff that is healthy, easy to prepare and clean-up after. I have a Freezer and Reefer, but limit food stuff that is stored in them. 
6. clothes, tools, toys, books, headlamp, self-defense, cell phone, notebook computer, internet, movies, wifi are all VERY do-able.

Peace and Joy to all my brothers and lovers of Freedom,
f

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## Elwar

> Hi, i have successfully lived much like Elwar covered in his opening post.


Thank you for the input and welcome to the forums!

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## flailer

> Thank you for the input and welcome to the forums!


You are more than welcome, Brother. 

I lurked here, joining to post on your thread.  I'm hoping others post their ideas that i can learn from them, too.

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## flailer

A few more things to consider:
- vans, cars, & RV deprecate in value, so wait to buy until you have a need, as they will be worth thousands less every year... 
.... but that is discounting inflation, so buying maybe the correct thing to do...  your call. 
- If you are living in it, it will get thrashed, worn, and maybe even thread-bare.  Solution: Buy Used, save thousands!!  
- i want the smallest size rig & smallest engine i can get away with, for Stealth reasons & operating costs too.  Also, i dont want to have to pop-out the top, or side, or anything, in order to sleep.... otherwise the Stealth mode is GONE GONE GONE, and someone will be banging on the side of your rig at 2am.  (Look for something small on the outside, but huge inside)  
- i want the largest interior space possible The need to fold up bed, move stuff around, or to put stuff away: Just so you have room to sit down SUCKS. (forbid the situtation where stuff is stored outside while you take a shower, or eat, or sleep.  Over packing like this so very bogus. It isnt being "self-contained"... So, down-sizing your shoe collection, number of jackets, toys, tools, etc, is VERY important, or maybe rent storage. Still i think a yard sale is best. 
- Appliances typically run on: 1. AC, 2. batteries, & 3. Liquid Propane, all three!! And LP is THE excellent way to go if you have only one choice, leaving solar panels to recharge batteries.  Also, i have successfully used block-ice inside my reefer, carrying them back on my motorbike so that i wouldnt have to move the RV to refill LP tanks.  Question; won't an ice chest work just as well??
+ Motorized bicycles are an EXCELLENT option.   I have a standard bicycle, and can bolt on a 4stroke motor on in 15 mins.  VERY fun, VERY useful, much easier to store on or in Van / RV... And easier to $$ buy, and use, and maintain, and license than a motorcycle.  I think they are VERY COOL!! But i also grant that they do not have the "status" of a motorcycle, nor do they have the distance, or speed.  Still, I think they are a much better option than Zero's motorcycles, in more ways than i can count. More info: motoredbikes.com , the forum is the best place to learn, and kinds of motor kits for sale, and how to mount them.   (btw: battery powered bicycles blow chunks, imo - UNLESS miles traveled are VERY low, & one can recharge at both ends of the commute)

Peace n Joy to all my Brothers in Freedom,
f

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## Suzu

I did the van-dwelling thing for a long while. It's nice to be able to just up and move when you wish, but it can be very hard to keep from being hassled to move when you want to stay put. None of the Walmarts in south Florida when I visited there allowed overnight parking, and even where they do, they have loud sweeping machines going over the parking lot all night long.

Why not relocate altogether? In many towns in my area, you can get a liveable house for half the cost of one of those RV-van things, and finance it for 30 years @ 3.5% right now. Maybe your employer would transfer you.

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## amy31416

I don't think anyone's mentioned those truck stops that also have showers--they creep me out, personally, but if I was a guy I'd use one in a pinch. Plus, you can park and sleep in the lot.

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## flailer

i love the discussion, and hope to learn more !!

If we are gunna start talking about where to park your van / camper / rv / rig of choice - there are variables that roll out of that discussion:
* Buying a rig that fits not only your needs, but the needs of the environment you gunna be using it in**

- Lots of time raining outside means your stuck inside you rig; so it better be big (and tall inside), well light, reading or other entertainment, or you're gunna go stir crazy in no time. (other considerations: pop outs, outside canopy, electric generator - cause your solar panels are not recharging batteries while raining, & bringing wet muddy clothing into an enclosed area without getting everything else wet/dirty, drying said clothing, & rain tires) 

- Cold &/or Hot weather: Insulation!!!  heater, cooler, venting, fans & the storing of bulky cloths. snow tires? 

- City use: *Stealth mode*: Neighborhood streets, city streets, dead-end streets, loading dock areas behind non-24 hour stores. NOT city parks, NOT waterfront areas, NOT motel parking lots, NOT wallyworld. Also: Yes to truck-stops, and of course trailer parks or RV parks costing money. (personally, for me, this is a one night, then move on situation for me, as i target BETTER more natural "camping" style parking spots...)  

- Country use *camping in plain site mode* These are the same villages / towns that allow overnight parking: at wallyworld, target, stripmalls, gas stations, loading docks, etc.  As the population density is lower, People are more laid back in the county, and feel less threatened by others, and therefore there are far far fewer rules (read not fascist state unlike many cities). 

- Back-Back-Back Country Use: : Important: Does your rig have ground clearance to do this??  Back Country is my FAVORITE, and i have been VERY successful doing this; finding the nicest best spots EVER, allowing me to live the retired-zero-bucks-per-day life. Just motorcycling into town to pick up supplies.  Think: BLM land, green-ways between towns, Ponds, River frontage, Gravel quarries, hunter's cabins, logging roads, forest access roads, pull-out that are 0.5 miles from a resorts, remote mtn lake resorts, some ski areas are empty in the summer time,  Near the BMX track,  But NOT near city dumps.  NOT near sewer treatment plants.  NOT near land that has rusting cars, appliances, tires.  Bring a hand saw (buck-saw for firewood) & chair, and you are living the good-good life.

Peace n Joy to all my Brothers, & Sister, in Freedom,
f

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## flailer

It's the end of Nov, & I'm starting to pack-up gear-up & size-up for a ~3 week easy/slacker/lazy trip, returning before Christmas.  
i am wondering if i should start a check-list, and if anyone is interested in what it takes to make this happen???  (i should have a check-list, but dont)

No sunscreen on this trip; No motorcycle; Short distance & fewer bicycle rides; Additional cold weather clothing.... but other than that, packing will be pretty much the usual stuff, i think.    Oh, i have a couple new USEFUL items: headlamp with red lens (stealth book reading), and a fake candle battery-powered candle (for mellow low lighting. while not really for "mood lighting" i have a feeling it will be a VERY nice creature comfort item)

Taking the rig out this afternoon for quick check-up, filling the LP, gas tank, water tank, prime black-water tank with dish soap and a gallon of water.  

N. Calif, here i come!!!!!

Peace n Joy to all my Brothers, & Sister, in Freedom,
f

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## Wallrat

I lived in my 26' RV for years in San Diego. It was set up with 6, 60watt solar panels, 2, 8-D (huge) 12v batteries, plus an inverter. the solar system cost about $3600. It provided about 80% of my electrical needs. The desktop computer was run off an air card. I showered at 24hr. Fitness, so that was about $30 a month. I used a local RV dump station for gray water dumping. I left it in a more industrial area, and drove to work in my truck. NO RENT for years, while holding a job. It was a real breath of freedom, and do the math...how much could you save? I moved the RV about twice a week, and never got ticketed, or ripped off. Come to think of it, I've not paid rent in over ten years. There are many ways to not be a wage slave. None of which require you to live in a dumpster. You can call me Mr. Van Dweller.

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## cjm

subscribed.  post more, people.

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## Elwar

> NOT wallyworld


Why not Walmart? The Walmart here in Hudson (FL) has RVs staying overnight all the time. A few times after fighting with the DW I have had to go sleep in my truck there overnight. Very RV friendly.

I heard that there is a website that lists the RV friendly Walmart parking lots.

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## Elwar

> I lived in my 26' RV for years in San Diego. It was set up with 6, 60watt solar panels, 2, 8-D (huge) 12v batteries, plus an inverter. the solar system cost about $3600. It provided about 80% of my electrical needs. The desktop computer was run off an air card. I showered at 24hr. Fitness, so that was about $30 a month. I used a local RV dump station for gray water dumping. I left it in a more industrial area, and drove to work in my truck. NO RENT for years, while holding a job. It was a real breath of freedom, and do the math...how much could you save? I moved the RV about twice a week, and never got ticketed, or ripped off. Come to think of it, I've not paid rent in over ten years. There are many ways to not be a wage slave. None of which require you to live in a dumpster. You can call me Mr. Van Dweller.


Quite interesting, so you park a detached RV and drive your truck, then when you move you connect it to your truck?

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## Isaac Bickerstaff

Did the van person thing during the ski bum portion of my missing decade. Bar bill was the biggest expense. 
By far.

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## Confederate

> At first I thought the title of the post was a person's name.


Same here.

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## cjm

> http://www.stealthvandweller.com/
> 
> So I got bored and tried to figure out what I would do if I just dropped all of the property ownership stuff and just up and lived out of my vehicle.


Fascinating web site.  Thanks for sharing.

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## Wallrat

I never had to tow my rig behind the RV, though that would be a great way to move to a new location. I have to differ with one of the above posters; a bed is priority 1, by a loong shot. Buy new foam and you'll live in bliss. Try to cheap it on a 20 year old foam cushion, and you'll suffer. Second priority is the kitchen, since after all, you're vanning it to save money. You can get one of the tiny portable picnic crappers, and dump  it regularly if need be, but a fridge is heaven, and a stove is crucial. I've 'showered' hundreds if not thousands of times (7 times in the last week) with a soup pot full of steamy hot water. Soap up, and dip/pour to rinse. Two gallons is enough, three is a 'Hollywood' shower. A proper shower, while it's homey, is not at all necessary. As to being stealthy, the Cops seem to clue in first on lights inside at night. Bikes hanging on the RV, loud music, anything that makes you visible works against you. For the most part I found that the Cops were looking out for methhead people. Not surprisingly, since an RV is the first rung above living in a car, and second above living under a charming bridge. Whenever I had to deal with them, I was clean, shaved, sober, wore nice clothes, and looked like a regular person. If I explained my situation to them, they were always obliging, and at most told me to move to another place. Nine time out of ten, you'll get hassled because some homeowner called and complained, so stay away from home dense areas. The other time would be because you stayed in one place too long. In SD, it was a 48 hour limit for an RV to be in one place on city streets. Solar is stealthy, so it's worth the extra money. A generator is so obvious, you're screaming to get busted. If you want to use one, go to a park or remote area, then move to your sleeping area afterwards, and be quiet then. Vanning is a nice life, and I can recommend it as a way to get off the grid and save a ton of money.

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## opal

*just fixing the wall of text*

I never had to tow my rig behind the RV, though that would be a great way to move to a new location. 

I have to differ with one of the above posters; a bed is priority 1, by a loong shot. Buy new foam and you'll live in bliss. Try to cheap it on a 20 year old foam cushion, and you'll suffer. 

Second priority is the kitchen, since after all, you're vanning it to save money. You can get one of the tiny portable picnic crappers, and dump it regularly if need be, but a fridge is heaven, and a stove is crucial. I've 'showered' hundreds if not thousands of times (7 times in the last week) with a soup pot full of steamy hot water. Soap up, and dip/pour to rinse. Two gallons is enough, three is a 'Hollywood' shower. 
A proper shower, while it's homey, is not at all necessary. 

As to being stealthy, the Cops seem to clue in first on lights inside at night. Bikes hanging on the RV, loud music, anything that makes you visible works against you. For the most part I found that the Cops were looking out for methhead people. 
Not surprisingly, since an RV is the first rung above living in a car, and second above living under a charming bridge. 

Whenever I had to deal with them, I was clean, shaved, sober, wore nice clothes, and looked like a regular person. If I explained my situation to them, they were always obliging, and at most told me to move to another place. Nine time out of ten, you'll get hassled because some homeowner called and complained, so stay away from home dense areas. The other time would be because you stayed in one place too long. In SD, it was a 48 hour limit for an RV to be in one place on city streets. 

Solar is stealthy, so it's worth the extra money. A generator is so obvious, you're screaming to get busted. If you want to use one, go to a park or remote area, then move to your sleeping area afterwards, and be quiet then. 

Vanning is a nice life, and I can recommend it as a way to get off the grid and save a ton of money.

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## brushfire

may be of interest:
http://www.amazon.com/Unisolar-Flexi...sim_sbs_misc_3

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## flailer

> Why not Walmart? The Walmart here in Hudson (FL) has RVs staying overnight all the time. A few times after fighting with the DW I have had to go sleep in my truck there overnight. Very RV friendly.
> 
> I heard that there is a website that lists the RV friendly Walmart parking lots.


Yeah, why not - Hey, sounds like it works for you!!    

i guess i was just trying to list out different types of van / RV living, and that Wallyworld parking lots dont seem like "stealth mode", to me.  i think i did list wallyworld as an option under "camp in plain sight"

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## flailer

> *just fixing the wall of text*
> 
> I never had to tow my rig behind the RV, though that would be a great way to move to a new location. 
> 
> I have to differ with one of the above posters; a bed is priority 1, by a loong shot. Buy new foam and you'll live in bliss. Try to cheap it on a 20 year old foam cushion, and you'll suffer. 
> 
> Second priority is the kitchen, since after all, you're vanning it to save money. You can get one of the tiny portable picnic crappers, and dump it regularly if need be, but a fridge is heaven, and a stove is crucial. I've 'showered' hundreds if not thousands of times (7 times in the last week) with a soup pot full of steamy hot water. Soap up, and dip/pour to rinse. Two gallons is enough, three is a 'Hollywood' shower. 
> A proper shower, while it's homey, is not at all necessary. 
> 
> ...


Excellent points!!  i have been considering "down-sizing" my fully-contained to an over-sized van. And if i did then would need one of your "tiny portable picnic crappers".  Hopefully 100% spill-proof & stink-proof!!!   Any model names or models come to mind??

p.s. i can't see how to +Rep Opal or Wallrat for their input.  maybe i just dont have enough juice yet, being a newbie and all??

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## cjm

> p.s. i can't see how to +Rep Opal or Wallrat for their input.  maybe i just dont have enough juice yet, being a newbie and all??


At the bottom of each post, you should see "Promote this to Article," "Blog this post," a six-sided star, and a triangle with an exclamation point.  The six sided star is where you can +rep or -rep and add a comment for the poster.  All members should be able to rep, but at 10 posts, your rep in particular will not count any points towards the poster.  You have to post some minimum number of posts before your rep counts (50?  100?  I don't know exactly).  It's still a nice gesture though, and many don't care about the points, just the comments.

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## Czolgosz

I am interest.

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## Wallrat

Thanks...I did run on a bit there, didn't I?  All I can say is I was trying to be more helpful than correct. Another thought; the po-pos can't bother you if you're on private property...unless the owner objects to you being there. Point is, while it's technically illegal to sleep in your rig in the city of San Diego, and most metro areas, that's only on city streets. Wallmart, the local shopping center, a church lot, anywhere where there is some sort of overnight usage works. 

  I would drive around and find where the big-rigs and delivery trucks were parking, and then park there, usually under a street light. That ups your security, and hides you in plain sight. One of the best RV's IMHO is the Toyota Dolphin, mostly because it's so compact. You hardly notice them on the street. Livability is less in them, of course. My rig was 26', with the van cab in the front. It had a shower, toilet, small kitchen with stove/oven and fridge. I lived in it for about four years, always on the city streets. At $500-700 per month (the rent I didn't pay), figure how much financial servitude I sidestepped. To me that's more life I bought, and less slavery to the system. 

  Another fine way to live is on a sailboat. I did that for years too; free anchorages are still to be found, and many of the same tricks apply. 

You might Google 'homeless on wheels'.

Last thought...if the cops come knocking, many guys would simply hide inside and pretend to not be there. I always opened a window and told them I'd be right out. They're not stupid, but may be contrary. A maglight leaves a Hell of a dent in an aluminum sided RV. If they suspect you, they'll 'knock' until their arm gets tired or until they decide you're not there. Plus, I never had a bad incident with them, so I saw no reason to chance the damage.

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## PaulConventionWV

> http://www.stealthvandweller.com/
> 
> So I got bored and tried to figure out what I would do if I just dropped all of the property ownership stuff and just up and lived out of my vehicle.
> 
> I would still be working, likely at the same office but instead of the 2+ hours per day commute, I would park somewhere and ride a motorcycle into work.
> 
> This means I would need a shower in the vehicle. 
> 
> I was looking at this:
> ...


You commute over 2 hours per day to work?  I find this hard to believe.

EDIT:  On a side note, my business associate does almost exactly what you described, except he does own property.  He parks his RV on the driveway of his house.  He is a contractor who currently runs a business and is remodelling the house so that we can later flip it and make a profit.  He also owns a small apartment building.  He lives out of the RV to avoid bills and goes to McDonald's for free internet.  He installed solar panels which charge the battery of the RV and power everything in the RV.  I don't know how you would do it without property, but maybe you could live in a Wal Mart parking lot, which is pretty cheap to stay in overnight.  I don't know what their policy is for extended stay.  I don't imagine they would like that too much.

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## PaulConventionWV

> A few more things to consider:
> - vans, cars, & RV deprecate in value, so wait to buy until you have a need, as they will be worth thousands less every year... 
> .... but that is discounting inflation, so buying maybe the correct thing to do...  your call. 
> - If you are living in it, it will get thrashed, worn, and maybe even thread-bare.  Solution: Buy Used, save thousands!!  
> - i want the smallest size rig & smallest engine i can get away with, for Stealth reasons & operating costs too.  Also, i dont want to have to pop-out the top, or side, or anything, in order to sleep.... otherwise the Stealth mode is GONE GONE GONE, and someone will be banging on the side of your rig at 2am.  (Look for something small on the outside, but huge inside)  
> - i want the largest interior space possible The need to fold up bed, move stuff around, or to put stuff away: Just so you have room to sit down SUCKS. (forbid the situtation where stuff is stored outside while you take a shower, or eat, or sleep.  Over packing like this so very bogus. It isnt being "self-contained"... So, down-sizing your shoe collection, number of jackets, toys, tools, etc, is VERY important, or maybe rent storage. Still i think a yard sale is best. 
> - Appliances typically run on: 1. AC, 2. batteries, & 3. Liquid Propane, all three!! And LP is THE excellent way to go if you have only one choice, leaving solar panels to recharge batteries.  Also, i have successfully used block-ice inside my reefer, carrying them back on my motorbike so that i wouldnt have to move the RV to refill LP tanks.  Question; won't an ice chest work just as well??
> + Motorized bicycles are an EXCELLENT option.   I have a standard bicycle, and can bolt on a 4stroke motor on in 15 mins.  VERY fun, VERY useful, much easier to store on or in Van / RV... And easier to $$ buy, and use, and maintain, and license than a motorcycle.  I think they are VERY COOL!! But i also grant that they do not have the "status" of a motorcycle, nor do they have the distance, or speed.  Still, I think they are a much better option than Zero's motorcycles, in more ways than i can count. More info: motoredbikes.com , the forum is the best place to learn, and kinds of motor kits for sale, and how to mount them.   (btw: battery powered bicycles blow chunks, imo - UNLESS miles traveled are VERY low, & one can recharge at both ends of the commute)
> 
> ...


If I was going to use a bike, I feel like I would just pedal it.  What's the point in putting a motor on it?  It still doesn't go very fast.  Of course, if you have an office job and you are not very fit, sweating may be a problem, but there are ways around that as well.  I might as well mention that my business associate who lives out of an RV does so without a shower or toilet, but he finds ways to cope and clean himself nonetheless.  He does mostly roofing, though, so being tidy isn't really an issue.  It depends on your job or source of income.  

He started out living that way out of necessity but kept doing it despite having more than enough to find a nice place for himself.  It seems to be a pretty attractive lifestyle.

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## Tod

My nephew has a bike kind of like one of these; he posted a video of him riding it on Facebook the other day.

for some reaon the embed dialogue isn't working for me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBDa9oLmC9Q

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## flailer

> If I was going to use a bike, I feel like I would just pedal it.  What's the point in putting a motor on it?  It still doesn't go very fast.  Of course, if you have an office job and you are not very fit, sweating may be a problem, but there are ways around that as well.


They are not for everyone.  In fact i didnt think they were for me, as i have been an avid street & mtn cyclist for decades.... but after borrowing one for half a day -- well, let's just say i had a great time, with no effort, very little cost ($0.25 gas) , no parking hassles, no walking around in sweaty lycra shorts and clipless shoes.  

A motor on the bicycle totally changes the dynamics - try it, and perhaps you'll agree, perhaps not. 

Peace n Joy to all my Brothers & Sisters LIVING FREE,
f

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## flailer

> At the bottom of each post, you should see "Promote this to Article," "Blog this post," a six-sided star, and a triangle with an exclamation point.  The six sided star is where you can +rep or -rep and add a comment for the poster.  All members should be able to rep, but at 10 posts, your rep in particular will not count any points towards the poster.  You have to post some minimum number of posts before your rep counts (50?  100?  I don't know exactly).  It's still a nice gesture though, and many don't care about the points, just the comments.


Nope.  i can only see the six-sided-star on my own posts. Not on your's posts, not on anyone else's posts.  Yes, i can see the triangle "report post" on everyone's posts.

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## Elwar

> You commute over 2 hours per day to work?  I find this hard to believe.


Takes an hour to get to work if there is no traffic jam (which there usually is). Takes about 1.5 hours if I have to work that day at MacDill.

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## PaulConventionWV

Oh I wasn't aware you were in an urban location.  That really sucks.  It would take an awfully long distance for me to take 1.5-2 hours to get to work since I live in the country.

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## ninepointfive

ride a bike instead of the motorcycle

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## flailer

> ... Wallrat shared lots n lots of great stuff...


Any more to share, Wallrat?  

My short update is that my pre-Christmas trip went well, with two exception.  And moving into a smaller rig would go a long way towards correcting them.

1st issue is prolly very common, as i have had it several times over the years, but have usually found easy solutions.  Not so this time:    i knew what area i wanted to spend several nights (9 nights in this case) ... but had no idea where to park my rig & remain "Stealth".  Yes, i had the standard list of ideas, but i had no idea of the area, or where to even start looking.   Not having my motorcycle with me, to cruise around scanning, made things quite a bit worse.   So, again, a smaller rig, that can park anywhere, would go a long way towards solving issue #1

2nd issue is not common, but is a large concern.  After finding a place to park, i pulled in, only to hit an overhanging tree, punching a hole , cracking & damaging , the plastic cover on the roof-top heat pump.   *&#@* !!!  Now i can't even drive down the road due to the damage...  and i hardly ever even use that stupid *&#@* heater, and i NEVER use the AC.   It cost HUNDREDS to fix, even though i didnt even damage the heat-pump itself.  So, again, a smaller rig, WITHOUT all the bells and whistles, would go a long way towards solving issue #2

3rd item, not specific to this trip: Maintenance; The larger the rig the more costly to maintain, & operate. 

May all my Brother's and Sister's in freedom *Publicly stand-up against local & federal tyranny,

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## Wallrat

Well, there are so many different lifestyles to live...as for the vanning, the less 'private' your rig looks, and the more 'industrial' it looks, the better you'd do in an industrial area (camoflage). For the last four years, I've been living in a 16' tool trailer. You know, the ones contractors use. I insulated it, added a 15' awning, built in a bed, galley, shelving, heater, and so on. It was intended as a temp deal for going out goldmining during the summer, but it works so well, I haven't felt a need to change. I have a regular 18' RV trailer, and it's not an economic issue. I make good money, and am employed. I just like not paying for a place to sleep, or for a place to park. Right now I park at work, so I have power and water. That saves a lot of commuting costs. As you can imagine, a tool trailer never gets a second look from the po-pos. Worst thing is I've had three guys try to break in to it. They were all wildly surprised to find themselves on the ground with a big pistol to the head. Each time, the cops were supportive, and never a word said as to my living conditions. Again, it comes down to looking respectable. they knew what I was doing but left me alone because I was clean, polite, looked respectable, and so on.  So, you need to consider that you might become a target, and measure your ability to react to that. They come with a big crash or bang as they try to force the door, and you need to consider what you would do awakened from a sound sleep to find someone coming into your bedroom with bad intentions. My reaction now is to grab a weapon at the first sound, THEN a cell phone (slam the door in their face, and put them on the ground, then call 911. Petty theives in my experience are scared $#@!less, and the surprise works for you)...plus I'm a light sleeper. You will develop a 'situational awareness' if you begin any sort of stealthy lifestyle. Footsteps will awaken you, as will a vehicle stopping near you. Both are signals of someone maybe scoping you out. There is some weird sort of predator/prey thing on the streets, and you need to be able to go from a sleeping sheep into lion mode almost instantly. That reminds me...I heard once that the sound of a pump shotgun being racked is the universal signal that your presence is not welcome here. Something to consider.

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## jcannon98188

There was someone I met on reddit a few months back (might of been one of you guys?) who decided to live out of the back of his pickup I believe it was. He had one of those covers so it was all indoors. I think he had platforms that could slide out where he would have his stuff at etc, and had a 24 hr gym membership for toilet and shower purposes. He was a huge RP fan as well. I have been thinking about how cool that would be to do that. Except for the fact that I am an internet junkie and need to stay connected.

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## Wallrat

> There was someone I met on reddit a few months back (might of been one of you guys?) who decided to live out of the back of his pickup I believe it was. He had one of those covers so it was all indoors. I think he had platforms that could slide out where he would have his stuff at etc, and had a 24 hr gym membership for toilet and shower purposes. He was a huge RP fan as well. I have been thinking about how cool that would be to do that. Except for the fact that* I am an internet junkie and need to stay connected*.


Verizon has an 'air card' (a USB antenna) that gives 3G and 4G connections. No land line needed. That's what I used.

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## Icymudpuppy

If I were single, I wouldn't even bother with a shower.  I can always bathe at the gym.  Membership at a gym is well worth the cost for the showers alone.  Laundry at any old coin laundry works.  Two hotplates is all I need for cooking.    Why bother with the motorcycle?  Why not just park your house/van at work?  I already have the plan in place should the wife kick me out.

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## flailer

> Verizon has an 'air card' (a USB antenna) that gives 3G and 4G connections. No land line needed. That's what I used.


Yep Yep Yep; what he said.... AND there are many many options now:
- hotspot boxes that broadcast WiFi.
- Netbooks that (require) cellular connections
- tablets that use cellular connections, that also broadcast WiFi to your other devices
- smart phones that surf the web, and that also broadcast WiFi
- smart phone that surf the web and tether to computer (tethering refers to a USB cable between phone and computer, and it offers faster speeds than WiFi)

p.s. i have found that 4G speeds are VERY fast.  Faster than your typical WiFi at starbucks or Mc Donalds 

it has been a while since I priced, but all options are as cheap as in home broadband

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## flailer

> I already have the plan in place should the wife kick me out.


Smart Man !!!   

In today's world the Women hold the power of the State over the Men's heads.  Even if they don't boot you out on the street, it is a huge threat hanging over your head.    

Here is a short youtube video on preparations to make: Link  It is by the patrickhenryist channel.  

The loss of Men's civil rights is completely un-constitutional.... but that was one of the primary objectives of the VAWA.  

Don't believe me?  Check out: 
- Women are shielded from laws when they file false rape charges (it destroys millions of Men's lives, & remains on their record.... even if charges are dismissed!!  ; while women are shielded from laws on false charges.... (laws that Men are NOT shielded from)
- 85% of homeless are Men; Yet Women get 100% of Federal funds for occupancy. 
- in divorce, 85% time kids go the Mother, while the Men's pay is garnished.  If you lose your job & can't pay, you go to JAIL... This is the ONLY form of debtors prison we have.... & to add insult to injury the jailed Men are called "Dead-Beat-Dad's" 
- When a woman gets pregnant: the Man has NO CHOICE, what soever. BUT 1. She can kill the baby even when he wants to keep it 2. He MUST pay child support, & support to her, if she choose to keep it.... for 18 years minum  
- Men are REQUIRED, by law to register with selective services (draft) if they want to: go to School; get any Fed benefit; & to even to Vote; WHILE Women get all these "Rights of Citizenship" for FREE
- Men are victims in 85% of all domestic violence cases ..... BUT millions are spend on Stopping violence against Women (but fuk Men, they don't serve sh*t)
- Men are 2x more likely to be a non-reciprocating violence by a spouse (meaning women hit Men twice as often as Men hit women) ... and in these cases LAW requires that the Men get cuffed and jailed, NOT the women !!!  

Thanks  to Hate-filled Feminist, & the VAWA, Men are screwed in America.  

There is only one solution:  MGTOW !!!

Look up "girlwriteswhat" & "manwomanmyth" & "barbarossaaaa" channels,  on YouTube for best information on this topic !

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## opal

> SNIP
> 
> - in divorce, 85% time kids go the Mother, while the Men's pay is garnished.  If you lose your job & can't pay, you go to JAIL... This is the ONLY form of debtors prison we have.... & to add insult to injury the jailed Men are called "Dead-Beat-Dad's" 
> - When a woman gets pregnant: the Man has NO CHOICE, what soever. BUT 1. She can kill the baby even when he wants to keep it 2. He MUST pay child support, & support to her, if she choose to keep it.... for 18 years minum  
> 
>   SNIP


um.. when I got divorced, yes, I did get custody of my daughter and awarded minimal child support for a special needs child of a whopping $200/mo, (no alimony - didn't want any part of that game) which got paid ONE TIME when my daughter was 3 years old.  Then he disappeared.  The court never went after him

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## flailer

> um.. when I got divorced, yes, I did get custody of my daughter and awarded minimal child support for a special needs child of a whopping $200/mo, (no alimony - didn't want any part of that game) which got paid ONE TIME when my daughter was 3 years old.  Then he disappeared.  The court never went after him


WOW !!!  

- He was an "Absconder".  Some guys will do this BEFORE the divorce, as the family court system is hard on Men (that they can locate).      

- Have you heard any of girlwriteswhat???   As a Divorced Woman, & a *Libertarian* she REALLY lays it all out !!!  

- In all truthfulness i should have absconded - but didnt.  The system RAPED me, & has done so to MILLIONS of other Men.  And we are NOT talking about me suffering through a single raping: we are talking about RAPING: day-after-day; year-after-year RAPING.  

GWW - girlwriteswhat - is a Divorced Woman, & a *Libertarian* and a Youtuber.... she REALLY lays it all out, in ALL her videos:

Title "My address to the NY Libertarian Party"  
http://youtu.be/2LkYDpQQVJ0

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## flailer

Hi all  

I had another opportunity to try Van living, for 2 straight months, and liked it a WHOLE lot.  

?? What did i like you ask:

1. The freedom of *choice* !!  I was driving away from a wonderful spot (huge trees, ferns, waterfalls, walking trails, rural coffee-shop) ... leaving, heading out.... & you know what i did next?  I TURNED AROUND & went back, after less than 20 miles....  Leaving just re-enforced why i was on the road: i found a place i would rather be!!!

2.  The freedom from the *system* ... the *Evil Empire* as i like to call it.   I spend so little money, that i feel good about NOT feeding the evil empire / paying taxes: Housing tax; Water tax; Power tax; anytime i spend money a lot of it goes the FED-Gov. About the only tax i pay while living this way is gasoline tax... & a bicycle or motorcycle goes a LONG way toward minimizing that!!!  (food & meds not taxed by the system, yet) 

3.  Ultra-Low cost of Living.  Hey, i feel really good about that.  Guess i'm a natural-born cheap-skate. Clean socks, undies, & shirt, 4 cups of coffee, mixed fruit bfast, & I am a HAPPY man. 

4.  Free time !!!  

5.  Exploring !!!  (woods, trails, creeks, by-ways, bike-paths, *libraries, coffee-shops, farmer's markets, beach-fronts, & yes, small hardware stores are fun too) 

6.  More hiking, walking, & just being friendly to strangers (brand new friends i like to call them) !!!  

~ WONDERFUL STUFF ~   I'd encourage EVERYONE to drop out of the system ~ 



So.... why am i posting this you ask..... cause i am headed out again !!!.  I'll be taking my time; crossing several mtn passes, i'll see deserts, lakes, beaches, & some family.  

I traveled the world international as a mid-aged working-man, & now, as a youngish retired man, i am reverting to my teen-aged years of: Exploring, Camping, Hiking, and simply being a Wanderer who rarely refers to his maps.  

This trip i'd like to do 5 months !!!! .... but have STRONG doubts my GF would take me back if i did so, and she is a WONDERFUL WONDERFUL WOMAN !!!!  (p.s. She has made several trips with me in the past, flying to meet & back again, or using the bus if that is better option).   So, UNLESS she can meet me SOMEWHERE on this trip, i'll limit it to 4 weeks or less ..... 

- Books
- Books on CD (while driving) 
- Food; fruit, nuts, veggies, dates, jerky, granola bars, rolled oats, sauces & spices, canned salmon, rice, beans, vitamins, coffee, filters, gatorade powder, 
- day-pack / boots  / bag / pad / tarp / rope
- clothing / glasses / 
- minor tools
- computer / smartphone / chargers
..... if i was older, and the AARP wasn't such a supporter of FASCIST government.... i'd include their card too. 

Peace Love n Joy to all my FAMILY MEMBERS in FREEDOM, 
f

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## Anti Federalist

Good stuff in here...

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## flailer

Hi all,  

Long time since my last update, so here goes:

- 4 solid trips this year (2014) 2 of them were for just over 2 months, 1 just over 1 month, 1 was 2.5 weeks.  I have had a few others, but they were short & sweet.

- Several changes over the years of van living:
-- I still refuse to pay to camp anywhere (as I always have). In all these years I have paid a grand total of ONCE. 
-- mostly, the BIGGEST change is the price of gas, next
-- I have changed my mind about the value of having a bathroom & shower: it isnt really that important (I'm 1 month into a trip now & I haven't used the toilet even once. & bathroom itself has become a storage room (now if a kayak would fit in there I'd be tickled pink)
-- the stovetop & refer are used quite often (the microwave rarely, if ever. same with the generator)
-- & lastly i have found several easy & handy ways around washing dishes in kitchen sink (in this case a double sink, which, as you guess it, just gets used for storage)

Wear & tear is a BIG issue, so cover everything you can with a sheet, towels, &/or throw rugs.  Plus doing so make clean up a snap.  Plan on Washing & waxing your rig often - important!

Peace n Joy to all my Freedom Loving Friends,
f

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## tangent4ronpaul

> (now if a kayak would fit in there I'd be tickled pink)


it will:
http://folbot.com/

-t

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## opal

more info about that whole kitchen sink not for dishes thing please

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## flailer

Space is at a premium, when living in an RV.  Understand?
For me, I need more storage.  
- The left side of the sink makes a great place to store items I use often, but dont want rolling off the counter when I am driving down the road. Same with the right-side sink, except food, like snacks, fruit, granola bars, opened food packages I dont want spilling out making a mess, all sit nicely in the right hand side. 
Spilling open food items inside your cupboards is a BAD thing.   As would spilling them onto your rig's carpeting would be.  Wipe up & clean up inside the sink is fast, easy, simple..... and inevitable, as things will spill.

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## flailer

> it will:
> http://folbot.com/
> 
> -t


Thanks!!!

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## RonPaulIsGreat

> may be of interest:
> http://www.amazon.com/Unisolar-Flexi...sim_sbs_misc_3


I actually have a pallet of the 144 watt version of those, I got them thinking I'd have gotten a house in the country by now, and was going to set up my solar powered paradise. Still paid less than amazon is charging there. 

Should have enough saved up next year though to escape to the country.

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