# News & Current Events > World News & Affairs >  Chabad rabbi: Jews should kill Arab men, women and children (and cattle) during war

## ChooseLiberty

Wonder how he would feel if the exact same approach were used against israel?


www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1091469.html

"The only way to fight a moral war is the Jewish way: Destroy their holy sites. Kill men, women and children (and cattle)," Friedman wrote in response to the question posed by Moment Magazine for its "Ask the Rabbis" feature. 	Advertisement


Friedman argued that if Israel followed this wisdom, there would be "no civilian casualties, no children in the line of fire, no false sense of righteousness, in fact, no war." 

"I don't believe in Western morality," he wrote. "Living by Torah values will make us a light unto the nations who suffer defeat because of a disastrous morality of human invention."

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## Cowlesy

Oh great --- wanton destruction of humans --- for a second I thought I was reading Bin Laden

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## Dr.3D

1 Samuel 15:3

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## ChooseLiberty

Military policy based on Fairy Tales.







> 1 Samuel 15:3

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## Dr.3D

> Military policy based on Fairy Tales.


It may be a fairy tale to you but to them it is what is written in the scriptures.

I was just pointing out where he got that from.

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## revolutionisnow

Interesting that he calls it "The Jewish Way" also

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## ElyaKatz

> Wonder how he would feel if the exact same approach were used against israel?
> 
> 
> www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1091469.html
> 
> "The only way to fight a moral war is the Jewish way: Destroy their holy sites. Kill men, women and children (and cattle)," Friedman wrote in response to the question posed by Moment Magazine for its "Ask the Rabbis" feature. 	Advertisement
> 
> 
> Friedman argued that if Israel followed this wisdom, there would be "no civilian casualties, no children in the line of fire, no false sense of righteousness, in fact, no war." 
> ...


There is no love lost between the hareidim and far-left wing rags such as Haaretz. I wouldn't be surprised if Friedman was completely misquoted, taken out of context. I've read Friedman's works, so I can say, he's not the Jewish version of the Taliban. It surprises me that Libertarians, who are so aware of how the MSM twists conservative views in America, can be so credulous where the MSM in Israel is concerned.

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## iddo

> I wouldn't be surprised if Friedman was completely misquoted, taken out of context.


10 seconds of googling would lead you to discover that it's a direct quote: "The only way to fight a moral war is the Jewish way: Destroy their holy sites. Kill men, women and children (and cattle)."
http://momentmagazine.wordpress.com/...sh-fanaticism/
http://www.momentmag.com/Exclusive/2...sk_Rabbis.html

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## idiom

Welcome to fighting to win.

When you are commiting genocide the worst mistake you can make is to be half-hearted about it.

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## ChooseLiberty

So every war should be a nuclear war.

israel is like a rabid dog and the rabid psychotic dog wants to be a light to the nations based on some fairy tales made up a few thousand years ago.  That's f*cked up. 

Welcome to nuclear winter courtesy of the hebrew fairy tales.




> Welcome to fighting to win.
> 
> When you are commiting genocide the worst mistake you can make is to be half-hearted about it.

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## Kludge

YouTube - Leonard Peikoff Interview

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## idiom

> So every war should be a nuclear war.
> 
> israel is like a rabid dog and the rabid psychotic dog wants to be a light to the nations based on some fairy tales made up a few thousand years ago.  That's f*cked up. 
> 
> Welcome to nuclear winter courtesy of the hebrew fairy tales.


You don't need nukes to wipe someone out. And if you are fighting for land then you don't win if its all radioactive.

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## ChooseLiberty

That monkey Peikoff is obviously insane, trying to conjure up fear where none should exist.

Just confirms my opinion of Ayn Rand - what a joke.





> YouTube - Leonard Peikoff Interview

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## ElyaKatz

> 10 seconds of googling would lead you to discover that it's a direct quote: "The only way to fight a moral war is the Jewish way: Destroy their holy sites. Kill men, women and children (and cattle)."
> http://momentmagazine.wordpress.com/...sh-fanaticism/
> http://www.momentmag.com/Exclusive/2...sk_Rabbis.html


According to who? I can speak to Rabbi Friedman myself and find out exactly what he said. You are convinced that his "backpedaling" is disengenous, but reporters are all honest? What planet do you live on?

Religious people are vilified all the time, lied about, none more than religious Jews, the more religious, the more they are vilified and lied about. I just don't buy it. 

Arabs say this sort of thing about Jews all the time. And they make it clear, there is no misunderstanding. They mean it. Where's the indignation when that happens??

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## ElyaKatz

> So every war should be a nuclear war.
> 
> israel is like a rabid dog and the rabid psychotic dog wants to be a light to the nations based on some fairy tales made up a few thousand years ago.  That's f*cked up. 
> 
> Welcome to nuclear winter courtesy of the hebrew fairy tales.


The nuclear winter is due to Russia, China and France, to name a few, feeding Iran nuclear technology at a very handsome profit, and to Ahmadinejad wanting to bring about the return of the Mahdi, the Shiite "messiah" who fell down a well 1000 years ago. He believes that if he brings the world to the brink of destruction, the "mahdi" will magically appear and all mankind will embrace the one true "Allah"... yemach sh'mo, spit, spit, spit.

Israel simply wants to survive all that insanity.

Update: Just checked Rabbi Friedman's site. In his words:


*Rabbi Manis Friedman clarifies comments in Moment Magazine

I would like to clarify the answer published in my name in last month's issue of Moment Magazine.

First of all, the opinions published in my name are solely my own, and do not represent the official policy of any Jewish movement or organization.

Additionally, my answer, as written, is misleading.

It is obvious, I thought, that any neighbor of the Jewish people should be treated, as the Torah commands us, with respect and compassion. Fundamental to the Jewish faith is the concept that every human being was created in the image of G-d, and our sages instruct us to support the non-Jewish poor along with the poor of our own brethren.

The sub-question I chose to address instead is: how should we act in time of war, when our neighbors attack us, using their women, children and religious holy places as shields. I attempted to briefly address some of the ethical issues related to forcing the military to withhold fire from certain people and places, at the unbearable cost of widespread bloodshed (on both sides!) -- when one’s own family and nation is mercilessly targeted from those very people and places.

Furthermore, some of the words I used in my brief comment were irresponsible, and I look forward to further clarifying them in a future issue.

I apologize for any misunderstanding my words created.

-- Rabbi Manis Friedman* 

*Link:* *It's Good to Know*

If you're determined to think the worst of the man, have at it. I prefer to think the best of people wherever possible. R' Manis Friedman has proven himself to be an ethical, caring man his entire life, as is his entire family. He has earned enough goodwill capital that this statement deserves to be taken at face value.

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## iddo

> According to who? I can speak to Rabbi Friedman myself and find out exactly what he said.


What are you talking about? We're quoting his words, verbatim, it's what he wrote in that "Ask the Rabbis" link (in the bottom of the page).

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## iddo

> Just confirms my opinion of Ayn Rand - what a joke.


Ayn Rand had similar collectivist opinions, like that yoyo Leonard Peikoff, about mass-murder of innocent people: "If we go to war with Russia, I hope the "innocent" are destroyed along with the guilty. There aren't many innocent people there -- those who do exist are not in the big cities, but mainly in concentration camps." (link)

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## ElyaKatz

> What are you talking about? We're quoting his words, verbatim, it's what he wrote in that "Ask the Rabbis" link (in the bottom of the page).


And the link to his site, where Rabbi Friedman which includes the context in which he was speaking is below that alleged quote. Do you really believe the MSM reports fairly all the time? Or do you only take issue with them when what they report makes your ideology look bad?

I know better. I know the liberal press is always looking for ways to make a strongly pro-Israel rabbi look bad. They play hardball in Israel...all sides, much moreso that in the US. The Left will think nothing of lying. They do it here. Why do you think the Left in Israel would be so angelic? 

So, you don't believe me. Seems there are a lot of people here who are determined to believe the worst of Jews, especially religious Jews, but really, there is no big distinction is there? It's so easy to believe the worst, much easier than cutting some slack. Be careful, because if you don't give people a break, why should anyone give you a break?? Rabbi Friedman has said what he meant. If you don't believe him...your problem, not his, and not mine. He didn't "accidentally" let the cat out of the bag and then backpedal. He comes from an extremely ethical world, and actually thought his listeners understood some basic assumptions, that they understood the context, because that context actually happens in Israel.

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## iddo

I have no idea what you're babbling about. I linked to his full letter, where he writes: "The only way to fight a moral war is the Jewish way: Destroy their holy sites. Kill men, women and children (and cattle)."
Do you agree with the Rabbi and the Ayn Rand yoyos that the only moral way to fight is to kill children? And that it's the Jewish way?
You said that maybe he was "completely misquoted" and that you can speak to Rabbi Friedman yourself and find out exactly what he said. Do you plan to ask him whether someone fabricated the words in his letter? Or what else you planned to ask him?

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## idiom

Its one way to avoid a cycle of violence.

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## pacelli

Just when I thought I could go 4 hours without seeing another holy war thread, here we go again.

I'll reiterate:  I'm getting really tired of this bull$#@!.

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## iddo

> Its one way to avoid a cycle of violence.


Right. If Hitler had his way and killed all the Jews, we wouldn't have this cycle of violence in Israel now. And if Hitler expanded to North America and killed all the Americans, we wouldn't have the genocide in Iraq by economic sanctions and invasion, and the cycle of violence in Afghanistan.
Nice of you to say that it's one way. Note that the cycle of violence in Vietnam was avoided by using another way.

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## Objectivist

I still don't know why they haven't shut the Gaza strip down and forced Hamas to find a new home. Gaza is the size of a postage stamp and would make a nice resort community if you got rid of the trash.

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## ElyaKatz

> I have no idea what you're babbling about. I linked to his full letter, where he writes: "The only way to fight a moral war is the Jewish way: Destroy their holy sites. Kill men, women and children (and cattle)."
> Do you agree with the Rabbi and the Ayn Rand yoyos that the only moral way to fight is to kill children? And that it's the Jewish way?
> You said that maybe he was "completely misquoted" and that you can speak to Rabbi Friedman yourself and find out exactly what he said. Do you plan to ask him whether someone fabricated the words in his letter? Or what else you planned to ask him?


Read the entire article at the link you provided. It's right at the bottom of the *Moment link*.... I also gave the same link, which is found at R' Friedman's site.
Then you'll know what I'm referring to. If you choose to believe liberal trash talk, instead of what the good Rabbi says, that's your business.

If American's were faced with the same conditions that R' Friedman described at the *Moment link* on the bottom of the page. In addition the *Moment link* you provided, the link to the Rabbi's website that I provided, and the entire quotation where he clarifies what was clearly taken out of context...where is the confusion? And why do you find it necessary to use denigrating terms when discussing my posts, such as "babbling"? Can you not discuss a difference of opinion without insulting your opponent? 

Funny...I thought Libertarians were the ultimate conservatives, but here is one...buying into what the liberal press says...taking it hook, line and sinker. I thought for sure a site that promoted Ron Paul would be full of folks who are capable of critical thinking.

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## revolutionisnow

No, it wasnt taken out of context, the only context was them asking him a question. He just made a response after the article sparked controversy. And Moment is a Jewish life and culture magazine, if you think it is liberal trash take it up with them. 

Why do you feel you need to defend such vile talk and thoughts? If that same line was spoken by an Arab he would be on every news show portrayed as the next Hitler or Bin Laden.

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## iddo

Apologies for using the word "babbling", I used it  before in a different discussion and a Moderator edited it out (I take this word to mean someone who is talking a lot without saying anything meaningful, but I guess the common interpretation is more negative than what I considered it to be).
I despise the liberal media as much as anybody, but I failed to understand why the liberal media is supposed to be at fault here, can you explain?
I assume that he wouldn't write something that he didn't believe in (not sure why he says that it was irresponsible), that the only moral way to fight is to wipe out all the children along with everyone else. It's consist with what his god told him about wiping out the Amalekites because they got in his people's way when they were trying to cross the desert. Do you also agree that it's the only moral way to fight?

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## ChooseLiberty

Are you the new Megaphone delegate to the RP forums?  

At least you seem to be trying to make some arguments rather than screeching "ANTY SEEEEMITE" incessantly like the last delegate - poor slow Benny.

He never understood that screeching "ANTY SEEEEMITE" is not an argument.  

So Friedman tries to conjure up some nice thoughts in his "correction" and yet israel is still chopping down palestinian olive trees on the west bank and murdering babies in the Gaza.  To the casual observer this appears to be yet more bullsh*t.





> Read the entire article at the link you provided. It's right at the bottom of the *Moment link*.... I also gave the same link, which is found at R' Friedman's site.
> Then you'll know what I'm referring to. If you choose to believe liberal trash talk, instead of what the good Rabbi says, that's your business.
> 
> If American's were faced with the same conditions that R' Friedman described at the *Moment link* on the bottom of the page. In addition the *Moment link* you provided, the link to the Rabbi's website that I provided, and the entire quotation where he clarifies what was clearly taken out of context...where is the confusion? And why do you find it necessary to use denigrating terms when discussing my posts, such as "babbling"? Can you not discuss a difference of opinion without insulting your opponent? 
> 
> Funny...I thought Libertarians were the ultimate conservatives, but here is one...buying into what the liberal press says...taking it hook, line and sinker. I thought for sure a site that promoted Ron Paul would be full of folks who are capable of critical thinking.

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## revolutionisnow

> Are you the new Megaphone delegate to the RP forums?  
> 
> At least you seem to be trying to make some arguments rather than screeching "ANTY SEEEEMITE" incessantly like the last delegate - poor slow Benny.
> 
> He never understood that screeching "ANTY SEEEEMITE" is not an argument.  
> 
> So Friedman tries to conjure up some nice thoughts in his "correction" and yet israel is still chopping down palestinian olive trees on the west bank and murdering babies in the Gaza.  To the casual observer this appears to be yet more bullsh*t.


I think so, 50 posts, every one having to do with Israel. That seems to be their number 1 concern, and where their loyalty lies.

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## brandon

Michael Scheuer (sp?) essentially believes the same thing is true for America. If we fight a war we should fight it with everything we have, without regard for civilian casualty.

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## Meatwasp

> Michael Scheuer (sp?) essentially believes the same thing is true for America. If we fight a war we should fight it with everything we have, without regard for civilian casualty.


Poop on Sheuer if he thinks like that.
This is for the Rabbi

"The moving finger writesand having writ, moves on:
Nor all thy piety nor wit  shall lure it back to cancel half a line
Nor all the tears wash out a word of it"
Omar Khayyam

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## iddo

Michael Scheuer doesn't want to fight any wars, he agrees with the principles of noninterventionist foreign policy. And I never heard him say that in the case of a necessary war we should level a country and wipe out all its people including the children, like what the Ayn Rand loonies and this Rabbi say.

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## Cowlesy

> Michael Scheuer doesn't want to fight any wars, he agrees with the principles of noninterventionist foreign policy. And I never heard him say that in the case of a necessary war we should level a country and wipe out all its people including the children, like what the Ayn Rand loonies and this Rabbi say.


Scheuer wouldn't advocate just carpet-bombing women and children, but he would not be as concerned with collateral damage.  I heard him advocate if you want to go to war, you need to beat the ever living hell out of your opponent until they're completely demoralized.

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## thetruthhurtsthefed

Wow.  Didn't Hitler, Bin Laden and all the evil that we are supposed to fear and never read about say VERY similar things?!   Its funny how a religion (Judaism) can still get away with calling us (non-jews....gentiles) cattle.  Imagine the reverse! 

This is too obvious

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## iddo

Huh? The Rabbi means cattle literally, or animals more generally, i.e. after you finish killing all the children, you should also kill all the animals in the country that you wipe out. Not sure why his god gave the order to kill the animals too, anyone knows the logic behind it?

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## ChooseLiberty

Why did Humpty sit on the wall?

Fairy Tales don't need to be logical because THEY NEVER HAPPENED!

2000 year old Fairy Tales are no more true than Winnie the Pooh.  Just more violent and evil. QED.





> Huh? The Rabbi means cattle literally, or animals more generally, i.e. after you finish killing all the children, you should also kill all the animals in the country that you wipe out. Not sure why his god gave the order to kill the animals too, anyone knows the logic behind it?

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## iddo

OK I guess the word "logic" was too strong, how about if I replace it with the word "reason"? Any answers now? ElyaKatz? Anyone?

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## Liberty Star

Is this why US did not ask Israel to send troops for Iraqi freedom operation front lines even when they were more suitable for operation there beacause of their fluency in local languages and cultures?





> Welcome to fighting to win.
> 
> When you are commiting genocide the worst mistake you can make is to be half-hearted about it.


I don't know what "win" would be by killing any living thing like animals by completely dicarding a shred of human morality.  Even purely pragmatically, it's a scenarios very hard to imagine in the prsent day world.  Case in point, Israel was quite brutal in Gaza relatively speaking, did it win or lose when it further cemented its top rank as the most disliked nation in the world?  Some "wins" can be defeats then.

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## idiom

Well the Nazis and the Soviets both engaged in scorched earth tactics in WW2 sometimes even against heir own.

But in ancient times, lets say their cattle represented their wealth, if you destroyed their cattle and such then you can't be accused of plundering. You are not killing for money, which would be bad, but killing for God which is good by definition.

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## Liberty Star

> Well the Nazis and the Soviets both engaged in scorched earth tactics in WW2 sometimes even against heir own.
> 
> But in ancient times, lets say their cattle represented their wealth, if you destroyed their cattle and such then you can't be accused of plundering. You are not killing for money, which would be bad, but killing for God which is good by definition.


I thought you were making a pragmatic argument for such a 'kill all' approach for a durable win.  If you're talking about "killing everything in sight for God", that's a whole different dogmatic approach and it has its place in some fanatic ideologies I suppose.  Even "Godless" atheists have done it as you noted also I think.

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## idiom

> I thought you were making a pragmatic argument for such a 'kill all' approach for a durable win.  If you're talking about "killing everything in sight for God", that's a whole different dogmatic approach and it has its place in some fanatic ideologies I suppose.  Even "Godless" atheists have done it as you noted also I think.


It can make for a durable win. When was the last time the Apaches got uppity?

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## Liberty Star

> It can make for a durable win. When was the last time the Apaches got uppity?


In some cases it can, I would concede.  But I was thinking of present day mideast conflict between jews-arabs/muslims when I said that, what the fanatic Rabbi advocates above fails miserably here.  In fact, argument can be made that  brutal policies in such conditions can create very powerful blowback for the executioners of such policies.  Why you think new top US commander for Afghanistan said few days ago in Senate hearings that one of the biggest threats for US there comes from killing of civilians as collateral damage and US is putting serious pressure on Israel to start playing nice with Palestinians.

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## ElyaKatz

> Wonder how he would feel if the exact same approach were used against israel?


This approach is used against Israel, by the Arab/Muslim world. Having said that, it is obvious by his own words, as published *at his site*, the Rabbi was discussing a situation akin to this:

_Wanted Hamas terrorists sheltered by 500 women in N. West Bank 
DEBKAfile Exclusive Report_

*http://www.debka.com/index1.php*

_June 10, 2009, 12:25 PM (GMT+02:00)

DEBKAfile's Palestinian sources report that 500 Palestinian women in Nablus are providing wanted Palestinians with sanctuary and permitting their bank accounts to be used to whitewash Hamas revenues.

One of the Hamas operatives detained this week was found in possession of one-and-half million euros for establishing a stronghold in northern Samaria. 

Three Hamas female suicide killers were captured this week in Qalqilya on a mission to murder six senior Palestinian Authority officers._ 

Continue reading at the site. If this trend develops beyond 500 women lending their bank accounts to Hamas, to 500 women with suicide belts, perusing the isles of Israeli grocery stores....

That scenario and worse, was the context of the discussion.

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## iddo

Palestinian and Iraqi suicide killers chose to fight in exactly the same way that this Rabbi advocates, so I suppose that we should all commend the suicide killers for choosing to fight in a moral way, in fact the only moral way. ElyaKatz, will you commend the suicide killers for fighting in a moral way?

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## iddo

> But in ancient times, lets say their cattle represented their wealth, if you destroyed their cattle and such then you can't be accused of plundering. You are not killing for money, which would be bad, but killing for God which is good by definition.


Thanks for giving a possible explaination

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## iddo

> In fact, argument can be made that  brutal policies in such conditions can create very powerful blowback for the executioners of such policies.


What blowback? The whole point of the brutal policies that this Rabbi advocates is that you wipe out all your enemies, so there's no one left to carry out the blowback. Whether or not such policies can succeed is a good question, but if you believe that your god ordered you to carry out these policies then obviously you also believe that they can succeed.

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## idiom

For Israel to succeed at this the would have to wipe out.... a lot of people. To have no blow back.

To have little blow back one would have to quietly wipe out families, and family lines.

Don't kill someones mother or children and leave them alive *and oppressed*. That path leads to an army of really pissed off people seeking vengance.

They would have to leave no direct relatives alive of anyone in Gaza or the West Bank, make sure no mass graves were ever found and then go on a massive international propaganda campaign so that in three generations or so everyone loves Israel.

Very few people link Turkey with Genocide these days.

They could probably get away with it if half the world wasn't already pissed of at them. A lot of countries get away with genocide scot free.

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## iddo

> Don't kill someones mother or children and leave them alive *and oppressed*. That path leads to an army of really pissed off people seeking vengance.


Then why leave alive the Native Americans? And even give them casinos?

Not so simple because there are holy sites in Israel, so in order not to have blowback you have to wipe out all the enemies in the Arab and Muslim countries. The Christians and others in those countries would be collateral damage?
Maybe you can also provide a script for the Palestinian to succeed in wiping out the Israelis?

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## Liberty Star

> What blowback? The whole point of the brutal policies that this Rabbi advocates is that you wipe out all your enemies, so there's no one left to carry out the blowback. Whether or not such policies can succeed is a good question, but if you believe that your god ordered you to carry out these policies then obviously you also believe that they can succeed.


I don't know if this fanatical Rabbi has been reading too much Talmud or not, there are serious logical problems if such pro-genocide words of an "intolerant God" like the Rabbi has are applied in present day context and conflicts.  Hilter tried to wipe out a whole "enemy" race, did that work well? 

  Even if we were to disregard  moral aspects of genocide or some form of religio-racial cleansing, are such pro-genocide ideas practical and workable in present day world?  

There was no internat and modern morality based socities in olden times, God has to recognize that also when talking to the  more fanatical crowd.


This video sums it well what this lunatic Rabbi is advocating:

YouTube - Pro-Israel Rally For Attacking Gaza, NYC, 1-11-09

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## orafi

Why isn't PETA doing anything about this?

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## idiom

> Then why leave alive the Native Americans? And even give them casinos?
> 
> Not so simple because there are holy sites in Israel, so in order not to have blowback you have to wipe out all the enemies in the Arab and Muslim countries. The Christians and others in those countries would be collateral damage?
> Maybe you can also provide a script for the Palestinian to succeed in wiping out the Israelis?


The Holy sites are what makes it all complicated. the land the 'Israelis' are squatting on has claims on it from a lot of people. I did say acheiving zero blowback would require killing a *lot* of people. Like, 3 Billion or so (the Chinese and Indians would probably be on their side).

A script for the palestinians would quickly start to read like _Clash Of Civilisations_. It would probably start with a terrorist attack on Israels biggest backer triggering an inevitable chain of events leading to the default of major nations and a global spread of civil wars providing a window of opportunity to do whatever you want.

But apparently Muslims had nothing to do with 9/11 so that one doesn't work.

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## Kludge

> Why isn't PETA doing anything about this?


A quick and relatively humane murder is preferable over a life of torture.

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## orafi

> A quick and relatively humane murder is preferable over a life of torture.


I'm talking about the cattle dammit! Who's gonna jump over the moon after they're all gone?

And those Hindus are awfully quiet, the Brahman are under attack brahs!

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## ElyaKatz

> Apologies for using the word "babbling", I used it  before in a different discussion and a Moderator edited it out (I take this word to mean someone who is talking a lot without saying anything meaningful, but I guess the common interpretation is more negative than what I considered it to be).
> I despise the liberal media as much as anybody, but I failed to understand why the liberal media is supposed to be at fault here, can you explain?
> I assume that he wouldn't write something that he didn't believe in (not sure why he says that it was irresponsible), that the only moral way to fight is to wipe out all the children along with everyone else. It's consist with what his god told him about wiping out the Amalekites because they got in his people's way when they were trying to cross the desert. Do you also agree that it's the only moral way to fight?


I understood the quotation to be from an interview. Am I wrong? In any case, I choose to believe what he says he means, as explained in his clarification at his own website. The man is not a liar.

Re the only moral way to fight, it depends on the situation. The current non-Jewish residents in Judea and Samaria and not the Canaanites, and the current Jewish residents do not merit direct orders from the Creator at this point in time. The situation in the Tanach has not been replicated. 

He was discussing a situation where many, many innocent lives were at stake, and Arab women and children were being used as human shields. It's a tough call. Would you want to make that call? What if a bunch of suicide bombers had their women and children in them, in a large mall in America, and the only way to save hundreds of innocent shoppers was to kill the men, their women and children??

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## TGGRV

The Romans aka Italy should get all that land. After all, they were there.

By the way, the Quran says that Christians and Jews are pigs so I don't see all the madness at this guy calling others cattle. You have to start calling out people on both sides if you do it. And I would respect Palestinians more if they wouldn't have violated the ceasefire that they had with Israel. I mean, no offense, it would be like Mexico throwing bombs over the border and the US would have to shut up. Where are the images of people killed by Hamas? Oh, they don't serve the right image. What is hilarious though is that Obama is sending aid to both sides. lol

ElyaKatz, people will believe anything that makes them feel good. For some a bigger welfare state does the trick, for others anti-Jew stuff does because they believe conspiracy theories that Jews are behind everything.

And yes, if women are children are used a shields, I don't see why the army shouldn't shoot. Last time I checked, the US hates when they do this against them. This is a typical Muslim tactic.

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## LibertyEagle

Is it just me, or doesn't that guy on at 3:27 in the video look amazingly like that guy that's on FOX's Happy Hour and who has been on Freedom Watch?  I'm sure it's not him, but he sure looks a lot like him.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpos...5&postcount=49

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## BlackTerrel

> Oh great --- wanton destruction of humans --- for a second I thought I was reading Bin Laden


The difference is that  RPF isn't outraged by Bin Laden.  Muslims preaching the death of the west - meh who cares.  The general consensus is that "we deserve it" or "it's a false flag".

Some random Rabbi in Israel says it though... everyone is pissed.  It's all very interesting.

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## ElyaKatz

> This video sums it well what this lunatic Rabbi is advocating --[/url]


Using Max Blumenthal's video doesn't do you much credit. He's a well known ultra-leftist cherry picker. This entire thread simply makes my point. If you want to misunderstand the good rabbi, then you will. If, on the other hand, you're interested in the truth surrounding the Arab wars against the Jewish people and against Israel, then you'll search our verifiable facts and make a fair assessment of the situation.

Rabbi Friedman is hardly a lunatic. If the world were made up of such "lunatics" we would have peace and justice everywhere. If you bothered reading his books and listening to his lectures, instead of quotes taken out of context, you would realize this.

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## Flash

> Using Max Blumenthal's video doesn't do you much credit. He's a well known ultra-leftist cherry picker. This entire thread simply makes my point. If you want to misunderstand the good rabbi, then you will. If, on the other hand, you're interested in the truth surrounding the Arab wars against the Jewish people and against Israel, then you'll search our verifiable facts and make a fair assessment of the situation.
> 
> Rabbi Friedman is hardly a lunatic. If the world were made up of such "lunatics" we would have peace and justice everywhere. If you bothered reading his books and listening to his lectures, instead of quotes taken out of context, you would realize this.


How are we misunderstanding him? Explain this.

----------


## pacelli

> 1 Samuel 15:3


Tack on Deuteronomy 20

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## ElyaKatz

> 10 seconds of googling would lead you to discover that it's a direct quote: "The only way to fight a moral war is the Jewish way: Destroy their holy sites. Kill men, women and children (and cattle)."
> http://momentmagazine.wordpress.com/...sh-fanaticism/
> http://www.momentmag.com/Exclusive/2...sk_Rabbis.html


A direct quote taken out of context. I refer you to my post (#15) which quotes R' Friedman's clarification. 

*http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2160022&postcount=15*

I will repeat the post:

*Rabbi Manis Friedman clarifies comments in Moment Magazine*

_"I would like to clarify the answer published in my name in last month's issue of Moment Magazine.

First of all, the opinions published in my name are solely my own, and do not represent the official policy of any Jewish movement or organization.

Additionally, my answer, as written, is misleading.

It is obvious, I thought, that any neighbor of the Jewish people should be treated, as the Torah commands us, with respect and compassion. Fundamental to the Jewish faith is the concept that every human being was created in the image of G-d, and our sages instruct us to support the non-Jewish poor along with the poor of our own brethren.

The sub-question I chose to address instead is: how should we act in time of war, when our neighbors attack us, using their women, children and religious holy places as shields. I attempted to briefly address some of the ethical issues related to forcing the military to withhold fire from certain people and places, at the unbearable cost of widespread bloodshed (on both sides!) -- when one’s own family and nation is mercilessly targeted from those very people and places.

Furthermore, some of the words I used in my brief comment were irresponsible, and I look forward to further clarifying them in a future issue.

I apologize for any misunderstanding my words created."_

-- Rabbi Manis Friedman

Link: *It's Good to Know*

If you're determined to think the worst of the man, have at it. I prefer to think the best of people wherever possible. R' Manis Friedman has proven himself to be an ethical, caring man his entire life, as is his entire family. He has earned enough goodwill capital that this statement deserves to be taken at face value.

----------


## revolutionisnow

Oh great, another mission to bump every and any old thread that comes up upon a search for jews or israel.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Oh great, another mission to bump every and any old thread that comes up upon a search for jews or israel.


This thread was started on 6-09-09. My first response post was on 6-10-09. Since then, the thread has been one I check from time to time. Since the thread is on my subscription list, I responded to a member who posted today. I've responded in the past, and will probably respond in the future. Are there any violations of this sites' terms of use in responding to a five month old thread which has been active from time to time since then?

No? Then maybe you might consider making an actual contribution to the thread. You tend to very reliably chime in whenever anyone has the chutzpah to take an opposing view to your own on the topic, but sometimes -- I've noticed your posts don't actually have content.

Almost like it's your job or something....

----------


## ElyaKatz

> How dare those dirty bastards rise up against Israel.  Don't they know Israel was created by international law?  The nations of the world are duty bound to acknowledge Israel and uphold international law. A couple of perspectives on this resolution, so often misquoted and misapplied:
> 
> *The U.N. resolutions of what? of 1967?  To stop occupying their land?*


If you've read UN Resolution 242, then you're reading it as if you're reading a novel. It's a legal document. The UN resolutions pertaining to 1967 first impose the requirement of peace between the warring parties. That hasn't happened yet. 

Second, the resolution states that Israel should withdraw from "territories" ...not "the territories". The definite article was left out by the authors of the resolution deliberately. 

Arthur Goldbert: "The notable omissions in regard to [Israeli] withdrawala are the words 'the' and 'all...the resolution speaks of withdrawal from occupied territories, without defining the extent of the withdrawal" -- Arthur Goldberg, "The Meaning of 242," _The Jerusalem Post_, June 10, 1977

Lord Hugh Caradon, British Ambassador to the UN and co-author to Resolution 242, along with Goldberg, in an interview on the MacNeil-Lehrer Report stated, "We didn't say there should be a withdrawal to the [pre-] 1967 line. We did not put the 'the' in. We did not say all the territories, deliberately....We all knew that the boundaries of [pre-1967 were not drawn as permanent frontiers, they were a cease-fire line of a couple of decades earlier....We did not say that the [pre-]1967 boundaries must be forever." -- Caradon on _The MacNeil-Lehrer Report_, Mar. 30, 1978.

Furthermore, the underlying conditions which would require Israel to withdraw from said territories have not yet occurred, namely, peace. It was and continues to be widely recognized that the 1949 Armistice lines were not defensible. The current "green line" is an armistice line, not an international border. If the green line was to become the border of Israel, it would violate these same resolutions as it is recognized by military experts as indefensible.

Eugene Rostow, at the time the U.S. undersecretary of state for political affairs, "Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338...rest on two principles. [First,] Israel may administer the territory until its Arab neighbors make peace. And [second,] when peace is made, Israel should withdraw to 'secure and recognized borders,' which need not be the same as the Armistice Demarcation Lines of 1949." -- Eugene Rostow, "The Truth About 242," _The Jerusalem Post_, Nov. 5, 1990.

*More enlightening reading on UN Resolution 242:*

*The Real UN Resolution 242*

*SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION 242: A VIOLATION OF LAW AND A PATHWAY TO DISASTER*

The statement which emphasizes the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory via war was in response to the Arab world's attempt to acquire Jewish land via this route. It was not in response to Israel's right to defend it's territory. It is not against international law to keep lands acquired in a defensive war. Otherwise, what is the disincentive on the part of belligerents to make war...if there is no cost to losing after such an initiation?

----------


## fj45lvr

> For Israel to succeed at this the would have to wipe out.... a lot of people.


I guess it depends on what you think "success" is.

Israel has very systematically been waging their oppression to "force them out" by taking water, land, and generally making life miserable enough that they hope 2 things will happen:  1) the palestinians with resources will simply move away to someplace else or 2) the palestinians will fight back and they can then hold these acts of violence to the world as a perverted way to increase the oppression (just as the white europeans did to the Native American indian populations).

This Rabbi must believe in "Eretz" Israel so whats the point in discussing his screwed up view of humanity and his perversion.

----------


## Dieseler

He's a bloodthirsty fellow isn't he.
I wonder if he does that cool scream thing when he charges into battle?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> How are we misunderstanding him? Explain this.


He's cherry picking. The easiest thing in the world is to pick a couple of people who have no clue how to articulate their position from any given "protest" or "demonstration", and then hold them up as representative of a the entire group. A few loaded questions, a little bit of clever editing of the video and voila!  an entire group with a legitimate viewpoint has just been made to look absurd.

I'd like to see Blumenthal go nose to nose against someone such as;

Dr. Paul Eideleberg
Moshe Feiglin
Dr. Francisco Gil-White
Caroline Glick
Dore Gold
Tzipi Hotobeli
Uzi Landau
Benjamin Netanyahu
R' Tovia Singer
Mordechai Taub

I posted my response to Blumenthal's video and commented at his site last January. *Max Blumenthal Has Fun At the Expense of Truth* by Ellie KatzThey would make minced-meat out of him. That video is entertainment, not information.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I guess it depends on what you think "success" is.
> 
> Israel has very systematically been waging their oppression to "force them out" by taking water, land, and generally making life miserable enough that they hope 2 things will happen:  1) the palestinians with resources will simply move away to someplace else or 2) the palestinians will fight back and they can then hold these acts of violence to the world as a perverted way to increase the oppression (just as the white europeans did to the Native American indian populations).
> 
> This Rabbi must believe in "Eretz" Israel so whats the point in discussing his screwed up view of humanity and his perversion.


The above narrative comes straight out of the Arab propaganda machine, and has little to do with reality or history. The Arabs in the region that are miserable suffer because the billions of dollars they receive each year is squandered on luxurious lifestyles and fat bank accounts for their corrupt leaders, and making bombs to kill innocent Israeli children, women and unarmed men on their way to school, the grocery store, the bank or work.

The Arabs of the disputed territories must go into Israel for work. Why?? Because they invest nothing in their own infrastructure. They have no independent economies of their own. Why? Because they squander most of what they receive. Their priority is making war.

When the Jews of Gush Katif were expelled from their homes, their greenhouses were purchased in order to secure a living for many of the Gaza Arabs. What did they do?

*Palestinian militants ransack former Gush Katif greenhouses*

*Wikipedia on Gush Katif*

"The Economic Cooperation Foundation, which is funded by the European Union, agreed to purchase the greenhouses for $14 million and transfer ownership to the Palestinian Authority, so that the 4,000 Palestinians employed to work in them could keep their jobs. Former head of the World Bank, James Wolfensohn, contributed $500,000 of his own money to the project.

When the IDF left Gaza, thousands of Palestinians looted the area, and 800 of the 4,000 greenhouses were left unusable."

*Gaza: Gunmen raze Morag hothouses* by Khaled Abu Toameh

The Arabs in Judea and Samaria are hardly miserable. They have the highest standard of living of any Arabs in the Middle East, and are seen building huge villas for single families all over the region. Gaza is another story...the causes of their misery are a combination of factors, as delineated above, which is not an exhaustive list, and has nothing to do with Israel.

The Native American tragedy is parallel to the Jewish tragedy, not to the Muslim obsession with a world-wide "khilafa". The Muslim drive for world-wide hegemony is like the European drive to colonize the world -- on steroids.

The entire thing is driven by the insanity currently emphasized in Islamic teachings and its views of "infidels". It is craziness. It makes the people practicing it nuts and it allows for no peace between the Islamic and non-Islamic world. Americans see what these Muslims do and think there must be a _reason_. Israelis must have done something to deserve all this anger. It's not true. Just the fact that Jews dare exercise sovereignty over land where they were once forced to be the Muslim's dhimmi (a slave) infuriates Islamic pride and they feel they must destroy the Jewish nation simply because it exists.

This view is so far removed from the rational and tolerant approach to religion that most Americans have been educated in, it's nearly impossible for us to shake the belief that there must be a "reason" for all the anger.

There is no reason. You exist and are not a Muslim. I exist and am a Jew. That is all the reason that is needed.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> This Rabbi must believe in "Eretz" Israel so whats the point in discussing his screwed up view of humanity and his perversion.


So why are you discussing it? I see a point in countering slander, so I know what I'm doing here. What are you doing?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> How are we misunderstanding him? Explain this.


See post #68 in this thread and *Max Blumenthal Has Fun At the Expense of Truth* by Ellie Katz, also referenced in the above cited post.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> [FONT="Book Antiqua"]This thread was started on 6-09-09. My first response post was on 6-10-09. Since then, the thread has been one I check from time to time. Since the thread is on my subscription list, *I responded to a member who posted today.* I've responded in the past, and will probably respond in the future. Are there any violations of this sites' terms of use in responding to a five month old thread which has been active from time to time since then?


Actually, no.  The last past in this thread was in early June.  You are the person who resurrected this dead thread, Ellie.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Actually, no.  The last past in this thread was in early June.  You are the person who resurrected this dead thread, Ellie.


So, a thread that had not been responded to since June 20 is considered a dead thread here?? Hm.

I do see that I was the first person to pick up since then....but I don't see why there is so much controversy on this site when someone chooses to respond to an older thread. If they're dead and it's against the forum rules to "resurrect" them, then why not close threads after a certain amount of inactivity? 

And if that is not policy here, why is it an issue worth mentioning? So folks can get their post count up without thinking too hard?

I have a life, as I'm sure is the case with most members here. Sometimes I will be active here, and other times I will not pick up a conversation again for months. I actually take time to research many of my posts, rather than replying off the cuff. That takes time, and I don't always have the time to invest. If I choose to pick up where left off, what is the problem with that?

I hadn't noticed the Blumenthal video until I decided to check out my various subscriptions again. I had commented on the video on my blog last January. When I noticed Liberty Star's post of the Blumenthal video on a thread trying to defame R' Manis Friedman, I thought it was hysterically funny. 

Max Blumenthal and Rudolf Kastner would enjoy and understand one another. Maybe they'll meet someday. They could invite Steven Amsel and have a threesome type of party maybe. I'd suggest they do some joint research on how to recover from the Stockholm Syndrome.

----------


## pacelli

> [FONT="Book Antiqua"]*I don't see why there is so much controversy on this site when someone chooses to respond to an older thread. If they're dead and it's against the forum rules to "resurrect" them, then why not close threads after a certain amount of inactivity?* 
> 
> *And if that is not policy here, why is it an issue worth mentioning? So folks can get their post count up without thinking too hard?*


Anyone has the freedom to bump an old post.  And anyone has the freedom to criticize that person.  I've seen it happen on several threads on topics of varying intellectual sophistication.  I think the degree of criticism and/or support garnered once the bump occurs depends on the nature of the topic, and the posting/argumentative history of the user who bumped it.  Generally speaking, I've observed that one-issue users tend to get criticized more harshly when bumping old threads.  More ridiculous thread titles tend to attract more attention, both positive and negative.  Its the internetz, after all.  Where everybody knows that they have the only true, accurate, and correct position

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

----------


## fj45lvr

> The above narrative comes straight out of the Arab propaganda machine, and has little to do with reality or history. The Arabs in the region that are miserable suffer because the billions of dollars they receive each year is squandered on luxurious lifestyles and fat bank accounts for their corrupt leaders, and making bombs to kill innocent Israeli children, women and unarmed men on their way to school, the grocery store, the bank or work.
> 
> The Arabs of the disputed territories must go into Israel for work. Why?? Because they invest nothing in their own infrastructure. They have no independent economies of their own. Why? Because they squander most of what they receive. Their priority is making war.
> 
> When the Jews of Gush Katif were expelled from their homes, their greenhouses were purchased in order to secure a living for many of the Gaza Arabs. What did they do?
> 
> *Palestinian militants ransack former Gush Katif greenhouses*
> 
> *Wikipedia on Gush Katif*
> ...


 
One can hardly make the issue about being a conflict ONLY between religion (the palestinians are not exclusively Muslim).

You point out the corruption officials like we have in the U.S. but it is a RED HERRING....the real problem isn't about appropriating foreign aid.    

What I said is hardly "propaganda" but factual based on quotes of Israeli leadership and is the policy.   

There will be no logical conclusion unless people get back to the ROOT of the conflict...talking about who did what after that doesn't get to the bottom...

Maybe you should be an apologist for White Europeans stealing lands here in North America too....I guess you would believe that some beads given to a tribe was a "fair" price for say, Manhattan Island??

----------


## orafi

> Huh? The Rabbi means cattle literally, or animals more generally, i.e. after you finish killing all the children, you should also kill all the animals in the country that you wipe out. Not sure why his god gave the order to kill the animals too, anyone knows the logic behind it?


You're taking it tooo literally.

It simply calls for the absolute destruction of the people, their means of subsistence and marks of their culture. They don't have to mention everything and the kitchen sink you know.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> So, a thread that had not been responded to since June 20 is considered a dead thread here?? Hm.


Ellie, calm down.

You made the comment, "I responded to a member who posted today." and I was pointing out to you that this was not true.

You are very much a one-issue poster who by your own admission, have saved off threads so you can potentially use them later on your own website.  You have also told us that you have compiled a list of names.  So, I do think it's understandable that our eyebrows go up a bit when we see you going around running searches and bumping threads that mention Israel or "Jews".

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## rpfan2008

Could that Rabbi be him?

YouTube - Christians, Why donÂ´t you leave us alone.

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## lester1/2jr

cattle! this guys gone too far

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## tangent4ronpaul

> The nuclear winter is due to Russia, China and France, to name a few, feeding Iran nuclear technology at a very handsome profit,


Come now.  Israel has 200-300 nukes, they may or may not have a H bomb or two.  Iran, if they are even working on a weapon will have one or two atomic bombs.  Nuclear winter, that kind of firepower does not make.

It would take Russia, China and/or the USA tossing hundreds of H bombs back and forth to get a nuclear winter.

-t

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Anyone has the freedom to bump an old post.  And anyone has the freedom to criticize that person.  I've seen it happen on several threads on topics of varying intellectual sophistication.  I think the degree of criticism and/or support garnered once the bump occurs depends on the nature of the topic, and the posting/argumentative history of the user who bumped it.  Generally speaking, I've observed that one-issue users tend to get criticized more harshly when bumping old threads.  More ridiculous thread titles tend to attract more attention, both positive and negative.  Its the internetz, after all.  Where everybody knows that they have the only true, accurate, and correct position


Good to know.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Whatever.


_"Whatever"_ seems to signal retreat to me.




> When people talk about the French translation it is based on solid legal arguments.


I am not clear what you mean by this.




> When people talk about the English translation they say well Israel won't agree to pre 1967 borders.


Why should they? The pre-1967 borders were totally indefensible. 242 does not demand Israel relinquish all territories and as my my previous quotes from the authors of the resolution have stated, the resolution was specifically drafted with Israels' future security needs in mind. In the Middle East, deterrence is the only thing that maintains the integrity of any given nation's borders.




> And then there is the current political view:
> President Barack Obama: "Many [Palestinians] wait in refugee camps in the West Bank, Gaza, and neighbouring lands for a life of peace and security that they have never been able to lead. They endure the daily humiliations – large and small – that come with occupation.


_The current political view?_  Let me get this straight. You, an alleged supporter of Dr. Ron Paul, quote Barack Obama and claim his view is the "current political view"?!?" If these are Obama's words then that is all they are, _Obama's words._ Yes, the President of the US is a high profile individual who wields much influence. But even his words do not necessarily constitute the "current political view". Last I looked, we still live in a representative form of government, and thus, our Congress/Americans still wield at least as much influence.

The conditions in the Arab refugee camps are often squalid, but even some in UN have recognized that this is due to their cynical, abusive leadership, not Israel. Ralph Galloway, stated:

"The Arab states do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it as an open sore, as an affront to the United Nations and as a weapon against Israel. Arab leaders don’t give a damn whether the refugees live or die." _-- Ralph Galloway, UNRWA, as quoted by Terence Prittie in The Palestinians: People History, Politics, p 7._ 

See also: *BACKGROUNDER: The Palestinian Claim to a “Right of Return”*

I suggest you consider reading "*The Closed Circle*" sometime. That might help to understand Muslim society, which in the Middle East is usually synonymous with Arab society, Christian Arabs being a decided minority with very little in the way of rights. The Muslim/Arab world only recognizes and respects strength. In the Middle East, one only negotiates with one's enemies when weak. Otherwise, it is unheard of and means one thing...time to go to war and get the whole pot. Americans and Jews, in fact, Westerners in general, believe negotiating can represent strength, and have a hard time wrapping their brains around the standard Middle Eastern mentality.

The question is not whether or not the civilian Arab people are suffering. Of course they are. Making war is expensive and they have been making war against Israel since at least 1948. The question is _why_??? I maintain it is because of misplaced Arab priorities. They don't invest their money in infrastructure, jobs, education, hospitals. They invest any money they receive in weapons procurement. Most in the Gaza strip do not work but get handouts from UNRWA, which is heavily funded by the US. 




> US State Department Annual Report on Human Rights 2008 entry on Israel and the Occupied Territories: "Israel occupied the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights, and East Jerusalem during the 1967 War."


The US State Department is full of Arabists, having those priorities since before the Jewish state was re-constituted. They are notoriously anti-Israel, with some exceptions, but few. Obama is so over the top in his anti-Israel priorities, he's even outdone the Arabist State Department.

*The Secret War Against the Jews* by John Loftus and Mark Aarons plods through State Department and CIA history, and is heavily sourced to prove it's points. 

*Dr. Francisco Gil-White* is another historian who did an about face from a pro-PLO position to a pro-Israel position when he began looking at the facts, rather than swallowing MSM statements regarding the Arab-Israeli conflict, which he says in actually an Arab-Jewish conflict. He does not make any claims that can't be researched out by his readers, and he cites sources for every claim he makes. 

Another excellent source, though not an easy read...could have been edited more skillfully, is *From Time Immemorial* by *Joan Peters*, former member of the Carter Administration.

And then there is *Brigitte Gabriel*, a Lebanese Christian, who was raised to believe Israel was the problem in the region. When when confronted with the real Israel she'd been raised to believe is the bogeyman of the Middle East, she did a complete about face and is not a strong supporter of Israel.

I could go on and on with former PLO terrorists etc. to prove my point. Check out *Walid Shoebat*, former PLO terrorist, or *Noni Darwish*, daughter of a Gaza suicide bomber. There is Dr. Wafa Sultan, an atheist now, who was raised in Syria, and believed most of the propaganda against Jews and Israel until she left Syria and came to America. 

YouTube - Wafa Sultan

Many of these former supporters of the "Palestinian cause" now risk their lives to oppose the messages promoted by the likes of the PA/PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah etc. These last six sources believed the propaganda in the MSM. Their natural biases were in favor of the Arab narrative. Once they dug into original sources, they changed their minds. 

Regardless of what the US State Department says or believes, UN Resolution 242 recognizes Israel's right to administer territories acquired in 1967 until a durable peace and finalized borders can be negotiated. What have the Arabs done to that effect? All they have to do is stop shooting, bombing, stabbing and kidnapping, and inciting. Look at their schoolbooks sometime. They can't manage even these minimal requirements.

There is no partner for Israel to negotiate with. The Arab world is not ready for peace. Given the current conditions, Israel needs to simply hunker down, maintain deterrence abilities and wait for the Arab world to awaken from their 1001 Arabian Nights dream.

----------


## lester1/2jr

"Another excellent source, though not an easy read...could have been edited more skillfully, is From Time Immemorial by Joan Peters, former member of the Carter Administration."

duh that book was totally debunked.


"There is no partner for Israel to negotiate with. The Arab world is not ready for peace."


so they should pack up and leave.  why are you bothering us with this?  we aren't liberals.  if the middle east is such a hellhole why in the world do european and american jews want to live there?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Come now.  Israel has 200-300 nukes, they may or may not have a H bomb or two.  Iran, if they are even working on a weapon will have one or two atomic bombs.  Nuclear winter, that kind of firepower does not make.
> 
> It would take Russia, China and/or the USA tossing hundreds of H bombs back and forth to get a nuclear winter.
> 
> -t


Okay. Well, I was using someone else's expression (nuclear winter) to make a point. The point being, Israel having nukes vs. the Iranian mullah's having nukes is the difference between a responsible gun owner and a criminal with a handgun. One has a gun for personal protection and is a law abiding citizen who does not swagger around threatening, and the second is an obvious threat.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> "Another excellent source, though not an easy read...could have been edited more skillfully, is From Time Immemorial by Joan Peters, former member of the Carter Administration."
> 
> duh that book was totally debunked.


Totally debunked by those who do not agree with her conclusions, like Norman Finkelstein, who suffers from a serious lack of credibility in certain circles as well. 

Not so among those who agree. That's the way things usually go down when it comes to the Middle East. Those who trust Peter's work simply wish it were more skillfully written and edited. That does not necessarily mean Peter's research was faulty.

*Quotation from Elya Katz:*



> "There is no partner for Israel to negotiate with. The Arab world is not ready for peace."





> so they should pack up and leave.  why are you bothering us with this?  we aren't liberals.  if the middle east is such a hellhole why in the world do european and american jews want to live there?


No one said living in Israel is a hell-hole. It's quite delightful. But it does require persistence and hard-headed realism.

Why do European and American Jews want to live in Eretz Israel? Because it is home, that's why. A soul connection to an ancestral homeland might be something gentile Americans have a hard time relating to, except Native Americans. To be Jewish is to claim Jerusalem as a priority above our chief joy 3 times a day during prayer, and after eating all but the simplest meals. To not cling to our religion, our culture and the insistence on returning to our ancient homeland (not every single individual until the Messiah comes, but as a people) is to give up on the idea of the Jewish people as the eternal people, to forget being a Jew.

To not have those priorities is to disappear as a people, which is exactly why there are no Canaanites or Philistines or the Northern Tribes of Israel anymore. We have a mandate, that mandate, given to us by HKB"H is why we are even a people. We are very stubborn about being obedient to our Creator in fulfilling that mandate, the major portion of which includes returning to our ancestral homeland.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Ellie, calm down.


What makes you think I was ever not calm??




> You made the comment, "I responded to a member who posted today." and I was pointing out to you that this was not true.


Right. And if you read my post, you'll see I conceded your point.




> You are very much a one-issue poster who by your own admission, have saved off threads so you can potentially use them later on your own website.


Probably not though. I won't commit to not doing so. If there are rules against it, I wouldn't consider it. I also said I save them mostly so no one can claim I wrote something that I did not write. I have had that happen before. That is my main purpose. Once again, if we can't save threads, then make the option unavailable. I have used this software before...no other forum I've joined in the past has made such a big deal out of saving threads. I once knew someone who had the entire site that we both posted on saved. He made it public knowledge. No one criticized or questioned him. And he had an extremely high post count. Amazing guy.

So what?




> You have also told us that you have compiled a list of names.  So, I do think it's understandable that our eyebrows go up a bit when we see you going around running searches and bumping threads that mention Israel or "Jews".


Only to satisfy my own curiosity as to how many posters there are here, when casually counting, who are actively anti-Israel. I have also said I think it's funny that threads which are sort of old and are bumped are not closed if it's such a big, hairy deal to bump them. I sense some paranoia here. All my personal research was motivated by comments made re how many anti-Israel activists there are here, how many threads there are that are anti-Israel etc. I was simply checking out the claims. My very casual research can be repeated by anyone who wants to waste several hours of their time on a lazy afternoon.

Yeah, I'm _almost_ a one issue poster. I do post on health care occasionally, or Iran or some such. Israel is an interest of mine, and I happen to know a fair amount about the conflict since I've been reading and studying it for several decades. I decided to check out my subscribed threads and respond to some I hadn't visited in awhile...so??

I was quite surprised to see a site such as this one tolerating as much off-topic posting which justified Arab terrorism. If so much activity in that direction wasn't obviously the pet project of a few very active members, I would probably branch out more, but since so much boloney gets posted here, and I have limited time, I focus on those posts.

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

----------


## Bman

> I was quite surprised to see a site such as this one tolerating as much off-topic posting which justified Arab terrorism.


I don't know about that Elya.  There's certainly some people here who I think it would be easy to label anti-semetic, but pro-arab/islam?

----------


## rpfan2008

Israel and its colony US sneaked in some fraudulent docs, the IAEA fig it out but they pressured to not make a categorical mention in the final report. Remember Saddam's  'yellow cake' conspiracy ? Israel will fight it's battle up to the last American alive.

----------


## rpfan2008

> Okay. Well, I was using someone else's expression (nuclear winter) to make a point. The point being, Israel having nukes vs. the Iranian mullah's* having nukes is the difference between a responsible gun owner and a criminal with a handgun*. One has a gun for personal protection and is a law abiding citizen who does not swagger around threatening, and the second is an obvious threat.


Exactly!!

Now tell me how many wars Iran has started in past century? and how many were started by European Jewry (who later became Israelis). You want to fight a war that's ok...why don't you fight by yourself??? Why agitate the Americans who have been harmed in no way by the Iranians?

_By way of deception you shall do war_....eh?

Israel is behind 9/11. When the masses realize ur fraud you will be in deep doo.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Hardly.  It's more like...
> 
> Whatever, because no intelligent person is going to subscribe to that one sided viewpoint.


Only in the modern era where moral equivalence is assumed to be a sign of intelligence. Recognizing good and evil, right and wrong, is only equated with intelligence in societies where evil runs rampant, due to the lack of any objective moral standards.




> That has absolutely nothing to do with the principals of the international laws you are so fond of advocating because you can't advocate treaties between nations as international and completely ignore the principals of war established by those treaties regarding no title by conquest.


Referring to wars of aggression, not wars of defense. How hypocritical of Americans to live on lands stolen from Native Americans, then to preach to Israel re title by conquest! Israel has been forced into defensive wars roughly every ten years. Israel is the only nation in history which some expect to give back territory that was used to launch unprovoked wars by her sworn enemies which boast regularly about annihilating her.




> No the resolution was drafted according to the principals of war which we're well established by previous international law.


Right. And historically, the principles of war allowed for the winner of a given war to determine the terms of peace, particularly when the winner of the war did not initiate said war.




> Apparently you are not up on current American politics.  Rumor has it America goes to war nowadays without congressional declarations of war.


Yes, i realize that. Legal loopholes were left in place after the Civil War, lots of funny business which technically allows all branches of our government on federal, state and local levels to circumvent their respective constitutions. 




> They are occupied.  The state of Israel has no moral high ground on this occupation and is in violation of the international law you are so fond of.


Stating that Judea, Samaria and Gaza are occupied without backing it up with any evidence in fact or law does not make it so. 

I am not necessarily fond of international law, and have never stated such. In fact, I did post a link which describes Resolution 242 as a disaster for Israel, and in violation of Israeli law. I didn't bring up Resolution 242. I simply argued it's true meaning when I saw it repeatedly being misinterpreted.




> This has to be the funniest thing from you yet.  The state department is full of Arabists but criticizing the Israeli lobby is anti-semetic.  This is going to be a classic quote right here.


I'm happy to entertain you.

Please copy and paste where I said criticizing AIPAC is antisemitic? If you fail to find a said statement, then please retract. You are imposing on me your own assumptions about my beliefs in this regard.

Re the State Department being packed with Arabists, it is a well known fact. Now, one must define what an "Arabist" is, in this context. If being an Arabist meant being for freedom then it wouldn't be a pejorative term. It would be a compliment. But being an Arabist in the sense of the US State Department in our current political climate means being an economic opportunist and moral midget as not one Arab nation has a government which takes into consideration the rights of the Arab people. It means being an elitist political hack who doesn't give a fig about the average Arab man, woman or child...only about cheap oil for America, because oil is currently the only contribution the Arab governments of the world contribute to humanity. America can't win a war without oil, and America's economy will totally tank without an arms industry and without war.

The Arab culture is beautiful and individual Arabs are often the most lovely of people. But their governments make them miserable. They pretty much stink. A State Department Arabist "overlooks" these shortcomings to the detriment of the Arab people.

Below is one of many, many examples of the extreme suffering that Arab/Muslim women endure. Arabist in the US State Department won't every speak up for these women, because it would offend the tyrants who rule the Arab world, and then (shriek!!) the price of a barrel of oil just might go up.

*Teen Terrorists Preferred Jail to Home*

How abusive could Israelis be if these girls prefer an Israeli jail to their own homes???

----------


## fj45lvr

> But their governments make them miserable. They pretty much stink. A State Department Arabist "overlooks" these shortcomings to the detriment of the Arab people.


sounds like most countries in the world including the U.S.   Like alot of things including propaganda and other crimes the U.S. and many western governments are just BETTER at "covering up" the dirty deeds.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Exactly!!
> 
> Now tell me how many wars Iran has started in past century? and how many were started by European Jewry (who later became Israelis). You want to fight a war that's ok...why don't you fight by yourself??? Why agitate the Americans who have been harmed in no way by the Iranians?
> 
> _By way of deception you shall do war_....eh?
> 
> Israel is behind 9/11. When the masses realize ur fraud you will be in deep doo.


Ah. I see where you're coming from. Well, with detractors/enemies of this caliber, the Jewish people have nothing to worry about.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> sounds like most countries in the world including the U.S.   Like alot of things including propaganda and other crimes the U.S. and many western governments are just BETTER at "covering up" the dirty deeds.


There are reasons why the nations of the world hate the US. Alleged US support for Israel is an easy excuse. But it's boloney. Israel is the fall-guy, the scapegoat, an easy target for the misinformed. The US plays dirty pool with other nations on many levels, including Israel, and has for a long time. They do it in our name, and we are going to get shafted for it if we don't do something to get ourselves back on a fully constitutional footing. That is one good reason why the Federal Reserve must be shut down. They help finance all this junk.

I distinguish the US from America or Americans.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I don't know about that Elya.  There's certainly some people here who I think it would be easy to label anti-semetic, but pro-arab/islam?


There are some here who are obviously both.

----------


## rpfan2008

You have nothing to fear as long as you can find cattle to die for your greed, and the supply is going shorter with each passing day.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> You have nothing to fear as long as you can find cattle to die for your greed, and the supply is going shorter with each passing day.


Right.

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## lester1/2jr

> We are very stubborn about being obedient to our Creator in fulfilling that mandate, the major portion of which includes returning to our ancestral homeland.


So God will protect you then.  If not, it wasn't meant to be.  bellyache about it someplace else.  no one cares we have our own problems on our own soil to worry about

----------


## rpfan2008

> Ah. I see where you're coming from. Well, with detractors/enemies of this caliber, the Jewish people have nothing to worry about.



Well, guess I can understand what is the thought behind that statement.

But same applies to you too...imagine how nutty your govt. should have been to send observers(5 dancing Israelis) to document a surprise event (911) that had yet to happen , and worse they got caught too. I believe this tells us why God chose a  certain people to do _the_ practical joke on..

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## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## rpfan2008

History of Israel is ridiculous !!

The brown middle eastern Jews (Sephardi Jews, one what Jesus was) are now have been 'allotted' Spain and Portugal as their place of origin (by "experts")....and the white/paler ones are given Israel (again some experts have concluded)...shattering the common sense argument that people/races which originated closer to the poles have always been whiter than those towards the equator.

Truth has never been a problem for the Zionists.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> So God will protect you then.  If not, it wasn't meant to be.  bellyache about it someplace else.  no one cares we have our own problems on our own soil to worry about


The Almighty expects us to do our part, We are meant to be active partners in making this world in a better place, not merely passive recipients. 

I suggest you speak for yourself. There are people here who care, and I don't think they appointed you as their representative.

Foreign policy is also an American issue, and has been of concern since the inception of this nation. Thus, Americans need accurate information. There is a lot of disinformation which some members here are determined to spread around. As an American, I have as much a right to put out my perspectives on the Middle East. No one is forcing you to get involved in any threads on these topics.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Well, guess I can understand what is the thought behind that statement.
> 
> But same applies to you too...imagine how nutty your govt. should have been to send observers(5 dancing Israelis) to document a surprise event (911) that had yet to happen , and worse they got caught too. I believe this tells us why God chose a  certain people to do _the_ practical joke on..


The Israeli government is not my government. I simply recognize Israel's right to exist and her right to defend herself.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> If those moral standards are based on objective natural law and the common sense, universally recognized principle of non-aggression, fine.  If objectivity is based on faith and religion... well that is not objective, it's biased.


It's your right to believe this, but human's are notoriously not objective.

I It would be better if you stated your sources when quoting. I'm not questioning your source validity necessarily. n any case, what point are you making with these postings? It's difficult to know how to comment if I don't know what point you are trying to make. They look like they might be Wikipedia, am I right?? 

One little item I find entertaining is the use of the term "Palestinian" in the top quote. You are aware of the fact that during that time, the term "Palestinian" referred to Jews, right? Arabs called themselves Arabs.

I've posted this a few times. Drives home the point. The synthetic use of the term "Palestinian" in referring to the Arab community in Eretz Israel only began after the Arabs lost the 1967 war. Arab leaders have admitted publicly that they only began to employ the term as a political strategy.

----------


## lester1/2jr

> Foreign policy is also an American issue, and has been of concern since the inception of this nation. Thus, Americans need accurate information. There is a lot of disinformation which some members here are determined to spread around. As an American, I have as much a right to put out my perspectives on the Middle East. No one is forcing you to get involved in any threads on these topics.


yeah, foreign policy is also why many if not most of the people here and elsewhere support ron paul, namely not wanting to fight MORE WARS FOR ISRAEL and religious fanatics like yourself.




> I simply recognize Israel's right to exist and her right to defend herself.


no one has a right to exist.  countries exist by force.  Israel would not be able to exist without the US's military and political support.  That support is why we got 9/11.  




> here is a lot of disinformation which some members here are determined to spread around.


lol yeah and your circa 2003 neo con spew is the worst of the worst




> Another excellent source, though not an easy read...could have been edited more skillfully, is From Time Immemorial by Joan Peters, former member of the Carter Administration.
> 
> And then there is Brigitte Gabriel, a Lebanese Christian, who was raised to believe Israel was the problem in the region. When when confronted with the real Israel she'd been raised to believe is the bogeyman of the Middle East, she did a complete about face and is not a strong supporter of Israel.
> 
> I could go on and on with former PLO terrorists etc. to prove my point. Check out Walid Shoebat, former PLO terrorist, or Noni Darwish, daughter of a Gaza suicide bomber. There is Dr. Wafa Sultan, an atheist now, who was raised in Syria, and believed most of the propaganda against Jews and Israel until she left Syria and came to America.


you might as well have cut and pasted this from MEMRI or the PNAC.  sorry you can't slice your allegedly libertarian form of zionism so thin that we can't see where it all leads:  war for israel, charles Krauthammer, Commentary and neoconservatism, the exact opposite of wwhat the Ron Paul revolution is all about

----------


## ElyaKatz

> yeah, foreign policy is also why many if not most of the people here and elsewhere support ron paul, namely not wanting to fight MORE WARS FOR ISRAEL and religious fanatics like yourself.


How has the US fought wars on Israel's behalf?? Go ahead and source. I'm interested in finding out where the folks who believe in this sort of thing get their information. 




> no one has a right to exist.


Ehm....what about the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? (Declaration of Independence) I'm not saying that the US Constitution applies to Israelis. Israelis have their own constitution (Torah) which applies to them. What I'm saying is, I think our founding fathers would take issue with your statement.




> countries exist by force.


So then, you don't object to Israel using force to re-establish herself and defend herself, eh? Not that I'm conceding anything in re to how Israel re-established herself. But just for argument's sake...




> Israel would not be able to exist without the US's military and political support.  That support is why we got 9/11.


Again, I'd be very interested in knowing where you get this information.




> lol yeah and your circa 2003 neo con spew is the worst of the worst


Okay. Well, it's certainly your prerogative to take your position, but if you don't back it with some sort of evidence, then this is just an ad hom.




> you might as well have cut and pasted this from MEMRI or the PNAC.


I sourced a wide cross-section of former PLO terrorists, former anti-Israel Muslims, and Christian Arabs who used to be anti-Israel and did a complete about face when learning the facts. And where do you cut and paste from?




> sorry you can't slice your allegedly libertarian form of zionism so thin that we can't see where it all leads:  war for israel, charles Krauthammer, Commentary and neoconservatism, the exact opposite of wwhat the Ron Paul revolution is all about


Not according to the flesh and blood Ron Paul supporters I know. And not according to the Ron Paul supporters on this site that agree with my perspective. I do read Charles Krauthammer, and Commentary only very occasionally and have been a conservative my entire life, so there is nothing "neo" about my conservative political views. Most Torah observant Jews do lean towards a more conservative viewpoint BTW.

Are you saying only "neo-liberals" are valid  Ron Paul supporters?

Did you know that the most "right wing" media outlet in Israel, Arutz Sheva, had quite a few Israelis who publicly supported Dr. Paul? So, you see, Ron Paul supporters come in many stripes. I have as much a right to hold my views of Israel, and to take issue with opposing posts on the topic as anyone else who appreciates what Dr. Paul says. I don't happen to agree with every single position he holds, as he's not the Messiah. He's a fallible human being, just like you or I.

Cya next week. Have to go live my life now. Be well.

----------


## lester1/2jr

> How has the US fought wars on Israel's behalf??


we fought and are still fighting the iraq war on israels behalf and if we go to war with Iran it will be on israels behalf.  "How" have they fought wars on their behalf? easy israel lobbies us for them and lays guilt trips and charges of anti semetism against poeple who resist.




> what about the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?


the Indians, nazis, russians and whoever else had no duty to respect that.  that is part of a US law document.  If jordan said all of israel was theirs would israel have to respect that? of course not.




> , I think our founding fathers would take issue with your statement.


did the american indians have aright to those things?  lol  of course not.  so it would be pretty hypocrtical of them to say that those things stand for all of humanity




> I sourced a wide cross-section of former PLO terrorists, former anti-Israel Muslims, and Christian Arabs who used to be anti-Israel and did a complete about face when learning the facts.


yeah they are totally random people who have no connection to the zionist media establishment at all.   Elya I know who all of those people are and what they are promoting, I'm not some dummy.  Stop pretending not to know that these people are neo con tools, it's completely transparent on your part.  I know who elena Benador is.

----------


## revolutionisnow

"Why would Iraq attack America or use nuclear weapons against us? I'll tell you what I think the real threat [is] and actually has been since 1990 - it's the threat against Israel," Zelikow told a crowd at the University of Virginia on September 10, 2002, speaking on a panel of foreign policy experts assessing the impact of September 11 and the future of the war on al-Qaeda."
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FC31Aa01.html

"We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq," Ma'ariv quoted Netanyahu as saying.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/975574.html

YouTube - What motivated the 9/11 hijackers? See testimony most didn't

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## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## Diogenese_

YouTube - Confessions of an Economic Hit Man

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## ElyaKatz

> Your statements regarding American hypocrisy... lack context.
> 
> You are essentially saying because mankind has been barbaric throughout history but the state of Israel does not need to observe modern civilized international law and may exercise barbaric occupations.


While I agree that mankind has been barbaric throughout history, including in its treatment of the Jewish people, both when sovereign in the Jewish national homeland and when in exile, the way to remedy that barbarity is not to prevent the Jewish people from seeking their remedy. The Jewish people have held legal title to the Land of Israel for thousands of years and have never relinquished title. There are only two conditions under which a national homeland which has been stolen from a people can no longer be reclaimed: A) If that people disappear. We're still here. B) If said people relinquish their claim. Jewish reaffirmation of claim occurs at a minimum of 3 times a day, most often in a quorum of 10 men. This has been public knowledge and has been recognized by leaders and historians throughout history.

When compared to how the Spanish reclaimed their national homeland, the Jewish people have been exceptionally humane. The Spanish took 800 years to reclaim all of Spanish territory from the Moors and they did it primarily via blood and fire. The Jewish people chose, rather to reclaim Eretz Israel via negotiations, legal purchase and peaceful settlement, only going to battle when her enemies chose to make war. I have written about this before on this site. 

Below is a policy paper outlining the Jewish people's very solid legal and historical claim to Eretz Israel. 

*Legal Rights and Title of Sovereignty of the Jewish People
 to the Land of Israel and Palestine
Under International Law*




> The state of Israel claims legitimate statehood in international law but ignores international occupation law.  The state of Israel goes to great length to distort the plain meanings of words and lobbies nations to persecute citizenry for articulating words unfavorable to Israel.


You can write a lot of things, but you need to back your claims. I have backed mine throughout my posts on this and related topics. 

If you think the Jews don't have legal claim to Eretz Israel, then for sure, European Americans need to move back to Europe.


So, if you really believe your own arguments, and you are not of Native American descent (proveable via solid documentation or community witnesses) then I suggest you start packing.

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## amy31416

> "If you think the Jews don't have legal claim to Eretz Israel, then for sure, European Americans need to move back to Europe."


So do the European Jews, i.e. about 85% of Israel. I'll move if you will.

I know, I'm a thorn in your side. 

It's fun.

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## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## lester1/2jr

> So, if you really believe your own arguments, and you are not of Native American descent (proveable via solid documentation or community witnesses) then I suggest you start packing


the two situations are different.  we fought and beat the indians for the land.  we won.  

and none of us I doubt begrudge the Indians for trying to hold on to what had been theirs.  They fought for hundreds of years against us and if they ever decided to try again we would have to fight them again.  we wouldn't go whine to the UN or some other superpower to come and save us.

That's how the world works.  international law is meaningless

so we were horrible to the indians and had no comeuppence.  when Israel is horrible to the palestinains there IS a comeuppence , mainly against us as israel has so much american money and such a small amount of land and a monolithic group of people that they are able to fortify themselves quite nicely.

America , on the other hand, has a two massive largely unguarded borders and a very mixed population.  we are sitting ducks thus we can't AFFORD to piss of terrorists because we are VULNERABLE to them.

It's a pretty simple equation.

----------


## revolutionisnow

Even with how horrible our ancestors were to the Native Americans, they never put them in open air prisons like is being done in Palestine, and they also have their own territory and are able to rule themselves, which is not being done in Palestine. And no, Jewish people do not have a claim to Palestine, that is another half truth, once again trying to blur the differences between Judahites, Judeans, and Jews. Many of the people of the descendants that lived there in the past have converted to other faiths, so why should the reasoning and land claim you use above not apply to them also?

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## fj45lvr

> so why should the reasoning and land claim you use above not apply to them also?


 
Because they are not Jewish....    

Talk about the most F'd up logic.  

The state of Israel portrays just about everything bad about the "state"...and one on steroids...no bill of rights, forced military service and a long list that makes any Liberty lover cringe and confirms why the "state" is not your friend.  

At least a minority of jews realize it and are speaking out and over recent history Einstein and others spoke against the "statists".

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## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## fj45lvr

> We have been pretty sh***y to the American Indian. We haven't honored the treaties. It's repugnant.


 
and more importantly the Tribal "sovereignty" is not a matter of equals so there really is no "sovereignty" at all.

People may think that the wrong done is a matter of history, all I can think about is Bruce Babbitt as former head of the Department of Interior, shredding pallets of documents that proved how many billions of dollars were stolen from Tribes in mining royalties!!!  (it's not all "ancient" history).   

I was rooting for the faction of Lakota that were pushing for repossession of their lands due to the breach of the treaty by the U.S.

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## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## Austrian Econ Disciple

> The Lakota have a just claim.
> 
> http://stevenmnielson.blogspot.com/2...t-country.html
> 
> We know what the mo of the U.S. is.  Bribe & coerce so I imagine we will see how it turns out.


o.O I was unaware of this. $#@! NH, move here and educate the Lakotah about Anarcho-Capitalism. They seem very open-minded, and a willingness to advance freedom and liberty! Besides, they have the basis for their legal claim. 

I'm not sure why they haven't done this earlier....I would move to the RoL immediately, if they followed a liberty-oriented policy. It would also seem to me that the Lakotah would be the most receptive to our message! Have the Mises Institute move there  The only downside is, too bad they don't have any ports  Though, I suppose a treaty for the use of Air Space, or some kind of lease could be worked out.

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## fj45lvr

> The Lakota have a just claim.
> 
> http://stevenmnielson.blogspot.com/2...t-country.html
> 
> We know what the mo of the U.S. is. Bribe & coerce so I imagine we will see how it turns out.


too bad the Lakota are not as "well connected" financially and politically as the zionists!!!

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## ElyaKatz

> Palestine (Greek: Παλαιστίνη, Palaistinē; Latin: Palaestina; Hebrew: ארץ־ישראל‎, Ereẓ Yisra'el; formerly also פלשׂתינה, Palestina; Arabic: فلسطين‎ Filasṭīn, Falasṭīn, Filisṭīn) is a conventional name used, among others, to describe a geographic region between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and various adjoining lands.
> 
> The term Palestinian refers to the indigenous people.
> 
> The term Palestinian Jew is a by product of the British mandate.


Arabs in the region did not call themselves "palestinians" until after they lost the war against Israel in 1967...maybe a bit earlier, when the "Palestinian Liberation Organization" was formed. They have admitted publicly many times, as have various Arab leaders, that they have co-opted the term in order to create a nationalism that did not exist prior. I have sourced the links which prove this several times, as well as at my blog. It is pure propaganda. Prior to this stunt, had anyone called an Arab a "palestinian" it would have been like calling them a Jew, which would have been quite the insult in their eyes.

There were also quite a few indigenous Jews in the region. Would have been more had the ruling powers not actively sought to murder them, expel them and preven them or their children from returning to their homes over the centuries.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> So do the European Jews, i.e. about 85% of Israel. I'll move if you will.
> 
> I know, I'm a thorn in your side. 
> 
> It's fun.


Your stats are wrong. At least 50% of Israeli Jews are Mizrachi Jews (Jews of Middle Eastern descent) many from the previously named Palestinian Mandate.


Wikipedia on *Demographics of Israel*

"Nearly half of all Israeli Jews are descended from Jews who immigrated from Europe, while around the same number are descended from Jews who immigrated from Arab countries, Iran, Turkey and Central Asia."

Some sources put the stats of Mizrachi Jews as higher than those of European descent. 

As for returning lands stolen from the Native Americans, I am not the one saying Jews don't have a right to return to their homeland and re-constitution their national sovereignty. You are. And by doing so, you undercut your own claim to live on American soil, or at least to exercise any form of sovereignty, unless you can prove you are of Native American lineage. Thus, the argument doesn't apply to me, or to Jews. It applies to Arabs, who are not the poor, displaced natives you seem to think they are. They are marauding conquerors.

If this country decides to give lands back to the Native Americans, I will celebrate it, and it will be totally consistent with what I believe the world needs to recognize as the Jewish right return to their original homeland and re-constitute their national sovereignty. 

I will remember your challenge regarding moving if I choose to, however. You really going to do it if I call you on it??

As for your challenges on the various issues, which are admittedly complicated, when they focus on issues and you refrain from personal insults are interesting and invigorating. I think it's fun too, or I wouldn't bother.

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## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## ElyaKatz

> Even with how horrible our ancestors were to the Native Americans, they never put them in open air prisons like is being done in Palestine, and they also have their own territory and are able to rule themselves, which is not being done in Palestine.


What do you call a reservation??? We gave them the worst land, expected a nomadic people to turn their men into stationary farmers, an occupation foreign to the men in many of those communities. The Plains Native Americans, for instance considered farming as women's work, hunting as men's work, and they would not shame themselves into performing this work for the white man. We took their children away and educated them as "Christians" in order to force assimilation. We destroyed their cattle, the buffalo, knowing full well what we were doing, and when we gave them provisions to survive on those miserable reservations, much of it was spoiled or in other ways barely edible. The disease and death rate from malnutrition and inadequate housing on those reservations were incredible. We deliberately gave them smallpox infected blankets as well, which added to the horrendous death rate. We cornered women and children in caves etc and murdered them en masse.

Hitler learned from what America did to the Native Americans, and applied it to the various "undermentchen" he wanted to destroy, among them the Jews.

We violated treaty after treaty, knowing full well that these treaties were just stalling tactics. The plan was to take all the land from the beginning, including holy lands such as the Black Hills.




> And no, Jewish people do not have a claim to Palestine, that is another half truth, once again trying to blur the differences between Judahites, Judeans, and Jews. Many of the people of the descendants that lived there in the past have converted to other faiths, so why should the reasoning and land claim you use above not apply to them also?


I'm not "blurring" anything. I simply refuse to give any credence to a gentile's definition of who belongs to the children of Israel, which the tribe of Judah is a part. Your fringe definition of who is a Jew (Judah, if you will look, was a son of Israel/Jacob) has no authority whatsoever, and thus simply does not determine who inherits Eretz Israel.

Gentiles claiming they can decide what the religion of the Torah should be, how it should be practiced, which primary source material is authentic and which is not, and who are the authentic practitioners of the Torah, thus who receives the blessings that devolve to those practitioners is no different than a non-Catholic claiming they have a right to determine who the Pope is, what a Catholic is and whether they have a right to the Vatican.

----------


## Dieseler

> Your stats are wrong. At least 50% of Israeli Jews are Mizrachi Jews (Jews of Middle Eastern descent) many from the previously named Palestinian Mandate.


Where did the other 50% of Israeli Jews come from? 
Can they just go back there and solve a huge problem for the rest of the world?
Would they be welcomed back where they come from as well as they have been in the middle east?
Why or why not wouldn't they be welcomed back?
Who's idea was this and how much did it cost to build this huge nuclear apocalyptic  bird nest?
How much does it cost America per year to continue this apocalyptic boondoggle?
Do you think the dissemination of free information on the internet is a boon or a bane to your cause?
Do you sense waning support from the States?

What is a Palestinian refugee?
What makes Palestinian a refugees?
Is it fair for Palestinian refugees to exist?

Its a big old mess ain't it?
Grats...

----------


## ElyaKatz

> In the 19th century the international view on occupation changed from a barbaric view to a more civilized view.


That is probably why Jews bought and settled Eretz Israel rather than winning it back in the same manner as the Spaniards.




> It manifested itself in treaties, the league of nations, and the u.n.  Basically nations said if we are going to enter into a league let's from some civilized common ground on occupation because war throughout history has led to several occupations.


There is a distinction between aggressive and defensive war.




> I think the international law cited above in the articles of the u.n., etc. state the principal pretty clearly.  It's not rocket science.  The state of Israel proposes nations and international law needs to de-evolve back to the stone ages so Israel can benefit.


Where does Israel propose this??




> The state of Israel is all to happy to cite international law to it's benefit and are all to happy to ignore it when it comes to a barbaric occupation.


As I've made clear in my posts, you and other detractors of Israel's right to settle Judea and Samaria are simply under the wrong impression as to the meaning of these various UN resolutions. It is the Arab side that ignores international law selectively. They misquote and take out of context various UN resolutions, but ignore those resolutions which apply to them.




> The state of Israel has no legal basis for the occupation in international law.  The best you can do is cite history that occurred before current international law to invoke some kind of emotional response.


I have not only cited history. I have cited experts in international law which make an excellent case for Israel's legal claim to the lands you claim are occupied. The author's of UN resolution 242 deliberately left out the definite article "the" from the clause which says Israel must withdraw. Israel must withdraw from "lands" occupied in 1967. Not "the lands". In legal language, every word counts. There were battles over whether the definite article should be included. 

Everyone knew, at the time that UN Resolution 242 was drafted, that the armistice lines of 1949 were not borders, and they also knew those armistice lines would only lead to further conflict, because they were not defendable. The final draft of the resolution is the one that applies. Right now there are armistice lines, not finalized internationally recognized borders. The final status of the region has not been determined, and won't be determined until the Arab side decides to give up incitement and warmongering.




> IAnd according to scripture.  God owns the land and the descendants of Abraham are tenants.  Tenancy appears to historically be linked to good behavior.


The descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alone have the right to tenancy on the land. G-d is certainly the owner of the Land, and of all the world. Any other people who try and take the land away from His chosen people will find themselves struggling. The Land will only be fruitful for the Jewish people, and in the days of Messiah, all Israel.

Obedience to all of HKB"H's safeguards, commandments, decrees and teachings is what determines the right of tenancy, as is clearly stated in the Tanach. Any lack thereof on the part of Klal Yisroel (as a community) really is the crux of the matter. But it does not follow that therefore, those Jews who do live there don't have a right to defend themselves against the unjust and persistent aggressions of Muslims. 

The Muslim motivation is very simple. They believe that once Islam rules a given land, it can't go back to the control of "infidels". This is why many Muslims still do hope for and work for the reconquering of Spain. Spain was once ruled by Muslims.

Jay Shapiro discusses the legal status of the Jewish villages in Judea and Samaria

*Audio: The Real Legal Status of the Settlements*

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Where did the other 50% of Israeli Jews come from?


Read the Wikipedia article on the demographics in Israel. That should answer your question.




> Can they just go back there and solve a huge problem for the rest of the world?


Since the Jewish people managed to reconstitute Jewish sovereignty in their ancient homeland, then they get to determine immigration policies.




> Would they be welcomed back where they come from as well as they have been in the middle east?


Many Israelis have left Israel. They do fine in the nations where they have made their new homes. 




> Why or why not wouldn't they be welcomed back?
> Who's idea was this and how much did it cost to build this huge nuclear apocalyptic  bird nest?
> How much does it cost America per year to continue this apocalyptic boondoggle?
> Do you think the dissemination of free information on the internet is a boon or a bane to your cause?
> Do you sense waning support from the States?
> 
> What is a Palestinian refugee?
> What makes Palestinian a refugees?
> Is it fair for Palestinian refugees to exist?


Re your description "huge nuclear apocalyptic bird nest" -- are you referring to Pakistan, or Iran or Israel??? I'm guessing you are referring to Israel. If that is the case, then the quoted post's questions are really statements. Thus you have answered your own questions to your satisfaction. 

I countered a few, but it's pretty much a waste of time since it seems you are already convinced. If most Americans adopt said views, I believe those views will ultimately contribute, in a big way, to the downfall and enslavement of America to the same Islamic fanatics that make continuous wars, both out and out hot wars and wars of attrition, on Israel.

I have backed my perspective on many of my threads/posts posts with quotes from sound sources.




> Its a big old mess ain't it? Grats...


It is a mess. It did not have to be. Israel and her neighbors had entered into a de-facto peace when foreign powers just had to stir the pot in the early 90's.

The Jewish people will not, ultimately be the loser, though it looks to me like trying times might be ahead for us and all the world. America might be the biggest loser in the end, especially if her people choose to believe the lies of the Islamic apologists, which makes me very, very sad.

----------


## Dieseler

> I countered a few, but it's pretty much a waste of time since it seems you are already convinced. If most Americans adopt said views, I believe those views will ultimately contribute, in a big way, to the downfall and enslavement of America to the same Islamic fanatics that make continuous wars, both out and out hot wars and wars of attrition, on Israel.


Is that a threat?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Is that a threat?


What?? How can a analysis of potential future events be construed as a threat? Can you parse a sentence?? If someone says the national debt will kill the economy, is that person "threatening" America with a ruined economy??

There are threats to America, and I hope Americans see them and act accordingly, before it's too late. 

I am a patriotic American. I believe the American form of government is one of the most perfect ever devised by man. I have family here, I love this nation. 

Jews are taught that we must obey the law of the land, unless it violates Torah law. Those sorts of laws would be things like murder, theft...if there is a law that is passed in a nation which requires us to do something immoral, then it violates Torah law.

Muslims are taught that all secular laws must eventually be abolished, leaving only sharia.

----------


## Dieseler

> What?? How can a analysis of potential future events be construed as a threat? Can you parse a sentence?? If someone says the national debt will kill the economy, is that person "threatening" America with a ruined economy??
> 
> There are threats to America, and I hope Americans see them and act accordingly, before it's too late. 
> 
> I am a patriotic American. I believe the American form of government is one of the most perfect ever devised by man. I have family here, I love this nation. 
> 
> Jews are taught that we must obey the law of the land, unless it violates Torah law. Those sorts of laws would be things like murder, theft...if there is a law that is passed in a nation which requires us to do something immoral, then it violates Torah law.
> 
> Muslims are taught that all secular laws must eventually be abolished, leaving only sharia.


I think I parsed your sentence fairly enough, I'm just not wasting a lot of time with all of your rhetoric.
You basically said that if America doesn't remain a nation of Israel first debt slaves, that we will be over run by Muslim antagonists. I personally have never even met a Muslim as far as I know. I'm sure there must be some in residence somewhere near me but they aren't making a lot of noise near my house or even in most internet forums. I do see a lot of Zionist shills and even more disgruntled American debt slaves who are beginning to awaken to a lot of really shady crap and a good deal of the smell is coming from a very small sliver of sand and stone sitting on the very end of a very oil rich area of the world.
At the extorted cost of four plus Billion Dollars a year, I think as an American tax payer that I do have the right to parse your sentence as a threat. 
Who's gonna send all them Muslims after us?
We got bigger fish to fry lately if you haven't noticed and I, as an American am more than willing to put Israel on the back burner.
No more blood for Israel from me and mine.
Import your own army.
Same goes for the Saudis.
Import your own army.
That's a promise by the way.
The next blood spilt if there is any spilt from this family tree will be on its own soil in defense of its own.

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## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## fj45lvr

> Where did the other 50% of Israeli Jews come from?


At the turn of the century Palestine had a jewish population that was only 5% of the total populace..... 

obviously they came in from other places as was the intent of the zionist movement even though some jews spoke out against what eventually has happened.

Even with lowering standards of qualification to immigrate to Israel today they cannot compete with the population of the palestinians (why Israel can't have these people as equals in any type of "democratic" nation).

----------


## lester1/2jr

> So, if you really believe your own arguments, and you are not of Native American descent (proveable via solid documentation or community witnesses) then I suggest you start packing


the two situations are different. we fought and beat the indians for the land. we won. 

and none of us I doubt begrudge the Indians for trying to hold on to what had been theirs. They fought for hundreds of years against us and if they ever decided to try again we would have to fight them again. we wouldn't go whine to the UN or some other superpower to come and save us.

That's how the world works. international law is meaningless

so we were horrible to the indians and had no comeuppence. when Israel is horrible to the palestinains there IS a comeuppence , mainly against us as israel has so much american money and such a small amount of land and a monolithic group of people that they are able to fortify themselves quite nicely.

America , on the other hand, has a two massive largely unguarded borders and a very mixed population. we are sitting ducks thus we can't AFFORD to piss of terrorists because we are VULNERABLE to them.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I think I parsed your sentence fairly enough, I'm just not wasting a lot of time with all of your rhetoric.


Not if you read threats into my words. 




> You basically said that if America doesn't remain a nation of Israel first debt slaves, that we will be over run by Muslim antagonists.


No. I am saying that if you choose to be distracted by the propaganda put out there by Islamic fanatics, while you are looking the other way, those same political Islamists will take over the nation, per their stated plan while you are looking the other way. I have stated before I don't believe there should be any foreign aid to any nation. The problem is not exclusively foreign aid to Israel.




> I personally have never even met a Muslim as far as I know. I'm sure there must be some in residence somewhere near me but they aren't making a lot of noise near my house or even in most internet forums.


*http://www.thethirdjihad.com/*

Muslim working towards the overthrow of America don't typically publish their work in English. Their sites are in Arabic. That's why it's taking loyal American Muslims to expose them. There are a lot of Islamic training camps, and sleeper cells all over America. 




> I do see a lot of Zionist shills and even more disgruntled American debt slaves who are beginning to awaken to a lot of really shady crap and a good deal of the smell is coming from a very small sliver of sand and stone sitting on the very end of a very oil rich area of the world.


Some Jews do what they can to counter the BS, much of which originates from the Arab/Muslim camp. This Arab boloney is the same garbage the Nazis put out, as the whole Nazi ideology moved the the Muslim world, along with a lot of Nazi war criminals, after WWII.




> At the extorted cost of four plus Billion Dollars a year, I think as an American tax payer that I do have the right to parse your sentence as a threat.


America pumps a lot more money into the Arab world, and for zero returns. America more than gets its money back in the form of intelligence and weapons research from Israel. That does not mean I'm in favor of the system as it currently stands. 

As far as your rights to read whatever you want into what I write, you can do whatever you like. It's a free country. But that won't change the facts. Any intelligent reader who wants to understand what I wrote can see that I am expressing concern, not threatening anyone. 




> Who's gonna send all them Muslims after us?


Then send themselves. They're already here.




> We got bigger fish to fry lately if you haven't noticed and I, as an American am more than willing to put Israel on the back burner.


Israelis would love it if America would put them "on the back burner. American foreign policy in the Middle East only stirs the pot, keeps the conflict going. And Hillary Clinton has made it quite clear what America has to gain in the forms of huge profits from a major arms race. Create the problem, then "solve" the problem.




> The next blood spilt if there is any spilt from this family tree will be on its own soil in defense of its own.


If Americans wake up in time, before an impenetrable system has been set up while you're busy complaining about the "evul Zionists", then any arms taken up against America's enemies on American soil will be against Islamic fanatic jihadis.

----------


## rpfan2008

> Not if you read threats into my words. 
> 
> 
> No. I am saying that if you choose to be distracted by the propaganda put out there by Islamic fanatics,


That was shameless...I bet 99% Americans didn't see those pictures of children incinerated by incendiary shells dropped by IDF...do I need to tell the reason why?
Arab propaganda (wrt to Israel) is only about exposing Israeli atrocities on captive civilians of Gaza. It's funny how truth about Israel is always anti-semitic and propaganda...

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## rpfan2008

*BOLLYN.com*

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## ElyaKatz

> If you are going to take a racist view and not have to believe anything a gentile says then I require empirical proof of lineage before any descendants of Abraham can make a land claim.  I wouldn't want to support any fraudulent activity.


I never wrote that I don't believe anything a gentile says. I wrote that gentiles have as much authority to determine who a Jew is, and what that means vis a vis a claim to Eretz Israel as a non-Catholic (which would include me) has a right to determine matters of definition or status in regards to Catholicism.

You are free to say Jews are not descended from Abraham, and therefore they have no inheritance in Eretz Israel. But it doesn't carry any weight with anyone outside of your own private echo chamber.

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## ElyaKatz

> too bad the Lakota are not as "well connected" financially and politically as the zionists!!!


Maybe they'll learn from the Jewish people how regaining one's stolen homeland is done. One can hope.

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## lester1/2jr

> those same political Islamists will take over the nation, per their stated plan while you are looking the other way.


how will muslims take over america?

and why the hell would they, they'd inhereit abuot 13 trillion in debt.

you don't htink we have more pressing concerns than the possiblity that muslims will take over America??




> I have stated before I don't believe there should be any foreign aid to any nation. The problem is not exclusively foreign aid to Israel.


our foreign aid to other countries doesn't bring us terrorism.  our aid to israel ( and the aid we give to arab despots so they will pretend to be at peace with israel) does.




> This Arab boloney is the same garbage the Nazis put out, as the whole Nazi ideology moved the the Muslim world, along with a lot of Nazi war criminals, after WWII


so people who aren't zionists are nazis. that's nice.  comparing people who don't agree with you to nazis. real classy.  it's not that they have a different opinion, it's that they are actual nazis who believe in the white race as the superior master race.  even though they are arab, persian, and every other race on earth.





> America more than gets its money back in the form of intelligence and weapons research from Israel.


hahaha  yeah "intelligence" like the intelligence that got us into iraq, a war that israel publicly endorsed and assured us was necessary. intelligence to fight THEIR enemies.

NO THANKS.


"then any arms taken up against America's enemies on American soil will be against Islamic fanatic jihadis."

lol


tell me again which of ron pauls positions you support?

you obviously don't agree with him on foreign policy.  are you for ending the fed?  stopping the war on drugs?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> You must have selectively skipped over this expert citation I previously posted:


My links and citations are rarely responded to. Instead, the same propaganda blather keeps getting regurgitated.

Re aggressive vs. defensive wars, I was re-iterating an important point in international law. There is a difference between lands acquired when a nation makes war on other nations, and lands acquired when defending against that war. When a nation has had war declared on them, and they win, historical precedence has been for that nation to set the terms of the peace. As has been agreed before in previous posts, historical precedence has been used to develop international law, wherever applicable.

*Myths and Facts*

Think about it. If a belligerent state continues to make war from a given territory, and then loses, and then is given back that same territory in order to continue making war, where is the disincentive? 

The Arab world has made constant war against Israel. It makes sense, and was understood by the authors of UN Resolution 242, that the armistice lines of 1949 had to be adjusted in order to prevent future conflict, since those armistice lines are indefensible. The final status of the international borders between Israel and her Arab neighbors have not and will not be determined until a just and viable peace is established. For that to happen the Arab/Muslim world has to do their part. They haven't even begun. Until a final status is determined, the lands of Judea & Samaria are disputed territories, not occupied. My links posted, which you have yet to respond to in any meaningful way, if at all, make the legality of Israel's use of the disputed territories clear.




> In 1947 the United Nations hoped to settle the conflict between the Palestinian people and the Zionists by dividing the land between them. Unfortunately, they chose a plan which the Palestinians did not agree with, and implemented it anyways.


First of all, the "palestinians" were Jews in 1947. If by "palestinians" you mean the Arabs, there was no way to implement any sort of plan that they would agree with, except for a plan to drive every last Jew into the Mediterranean, that goal being stated repeatedly by those same Arabs. 




> Plus the plan gave the most fertile farmlands to the Zionists. The plan was clearly unfair, and the Palestinians and their Arab neighbors rebelled against the plan, and war broke out.


Here's a map of that allegedly unfair distribution of land:


The problem is not land, nor is it the alleged oppression of the Arabs/Muslims. The Arab/Muslim world has 22 nations, and have done precious little with their resources to improve their lot.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> how will muslims take over america?



Check out the video link *The Third Jihad* and see for yourself. The narrator, Dr. Zuhdi Jasser, is himself, a devout Muslim and a devoted America patriot. He writes, _"This is not a film about Islam. It is about the threat of radical Islam. Only a small percentage of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims are radical. This film is about them.”_

Another group to keep an eye on:

YouTube - Khilafah Conference USA 2009: Hizb ut Tahrir America **NEW VENUE CONFIRMED**
That trailer was put out by Hizb ut-Tahrir, not by those who wish to expose their true agenda. So, as you can see, they are getting quite comfortable in America. They did hold the conference in Bridgeview, Illinois last summer.




> and why the hell would they, they'd inhereit abuot 13 trillion in debt.


Political Muslims believe the reason for America's problems is because we do not live according to sharia. I didn't say foreign Muslim governments would take over or invade. I said political Islam's goals are to supersede the US constitution with sharia. Those are very different scenarios. In that event, I'm sure non-Muslims would find themselves still having to foot the bill of our national debt. After all, we're only kaffirs in their eyes. 




> you don't htink we have more pressing concerns than the possiblity that muslims will take over America??


When a foreign enemy has infiltrated our nation and has made perfectly clear that their intention is to replace the Constitution with sharia, no...I don't think there is anything more pressing than that. What good will it do to get rid of the Fed and go back to the Constitution if the Constitution has been superceded by sharia??




> our foreign aid to other countries doesn't bring us terrorism.  our aid to israel ( and the aid we give to arab despots so they will pretend to be at peace with israel) does.


Believe what you will. It's your loss.




> so people who aren't zionists are nazis. that's nice.  comparing people who don't agree with you to nazis. real classy.  it's not that they have a different opinion, it's that they are actual nazis who believe in the white race as the superior master race.  even though they are arab, persian, and every other race on earth.


Again, I did not write that. What I am saying is that political Islam has absorbed Nazi ideology. Even that is not completely accurate. The two ideologies have a symbiotic relationship.




> tell me again which of ron pauls positions you support?
> 
> you obviously don't agree with him on foreign policy.  are you for ending the fed?  stopping the war on drugs?


I don't agree with him on everything vis a vis foreign policy. I am for ending all foreign aid. I am for removing our troops from foreign lands. We're not the world's policemen and it's arrogant of us to think we can or should be. I think it was a mistake to go to war in Iraq. I am for ending the Federal Reserve, and have been for many years. I also think most of the agencies of the Executive Branch of the government are unconstitutional. I am for ending the so-called "war on drugs". And I do think that our fight against internal enemies and terrorism in general are used as an excuse to violate the G-d given, constitutionally recognized rights of Americans. That does not mean we have no seriously dangerous internal enemies and it does not mean terrorism doesn't exist, also a serious threat. 

I don't happen to agree that there is a close relationship between the US and Israel. That's all MSM nonsense. There certainly is an affinity that most private Americans feel for the people of Israel and vice-versa, which is reflected in the views of the US Congress. However, the Executive branch and the US State Department are the main movers and shakers behind our foreign policy, as well as many unseen hands...and those unseen hands hate Israel as much as the worst antisemites.

Thus all the nonsense about "Zionist" conspiracies are propaganda, meant to distract people from who and what the real problem is. The alleged "close relationship" with Israel really means the the US is interfering in the sovereignty of Israel, as well as other nations in the region. Then the US plays them against each other,which works out to kill a lot of their sons and our sons, and make the fat cats in Washington DC and elsewhere very rich via arms sales and who knows what else, kick-backs, you name it, there is probably a hand in the till on just about every front where these conflicts are encouraged.

----------


## Lord Xar

> .


I do admit I have not but casually glanced at this thread, but I hope you are not suggesting that there is some "underground" muslim movement scattered across the US in some sort of networking/terrorists cells waiting to do harm!

I"d like you supply me with a map that shows all the jewish "networking" and that map would be overflowing with thousands.... When the U.S starts waging war all over the world on behalf of the muslims, then I'll start to worry. Right now, muslims aren't on my Radar as "those out to get us". 

If we investigate all those at the FED, military industrial complex, major corporations etc.. we won't find muslims. Will we?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I do admit I have not but casually glanced at this thread, but I hope you are not suggesting that there is some "underground" muslim movement scattered across the US in some sort of networking/terrorists cells waiting to do harm!


If you watch *The Third Jihad*, you would know that is exactly what I am saying. They make no big secret of it anymore.




> I"d like you supply me with a map that shows all the jewish "networking" and that map would be overflowing with thousands.... When the U.S starts waging war all over the world on behalf of the muslims, then I'll start to worry. Right now, muslims aren't on my Radar as "those out to get us". 
> 
> If we investigate all those at the FED, military industrial complex, major corporations etc.. we won't find muslims. Will we?


If you investigate Title VI educational institutions and various financial institutions, (AIG for example) you will find Saudi influence. Just two examples. Google is your friend in this case. There is a huge difference between radical Muslims who's religion teaches them that it is their duty is to replace the American legal system with sharia, and Jews, who are taught by their rabbis that we must obey the law of the land...unless the law contradicts Torah, for example, if the law condoned murder, theft etc. 

I would think a true patriot would be interested in getting at the truth regarding dangers to the American way of life regardless, but it seems a few are determined to keep the blinders on, only seeing the imaginary danger from "Zionists", while totally ignoring the elephant in the room....radical Islam.

If obvious dangers from political/radical Islam stares you (generally speaking, not you personally) in the face, yet you continue pointing a finger at Jews/Israel/Zionists, then I have to conclude that you (again, generally speaking) are not a true patriot, but someone with another agenda, masking as a patriot.

----------


## Lord Xar

> If you watch *The Third Jihad*, you would know that is exactly what I am saying. They make no big secret of it anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> If you investigate Title VI educational institutions and various financial institutions, (AIG for example) you will find Saudi influence. Just two examples. Google is your friend in this case. There is a huge difference between radical Muslims who's religion teaches them that it is their duty is to replace the American legal system with sharia, and Jews, who are taught by their rabbis that we must obey the law of the land...unless the law contradicts Torah, for example, if the law condoned murder, theft etc..


So, you make a very general statement then wax poetic about evil muslims, good jews. Ok, great.
If google is your friend, then all you would have to do is search for jewish influence in banking, media, politics and pretty much come to the conclusion that muslims influence is little league compared to the claws jewish influence plays in US manipulation. There is absolutely no comparision. 






> I would think a true patriot would be interested in getting at the truth regarding dangers to the American way of life regardless, but it seems a few are determined to keep the blinders on, only seeing the imaginary danger from "Zionists", while totally ignoring the elephant in the room....radical Islam.


Now, here is where I have to either agree with you or question my own patriotism. C'mon, this grade 3 manipulation. You will have to do better than this. 





> If obvious dangers from political/radical Islam stares you (generally speaking, not you personally) in the face, yet you continue pointing a finger at Jews/Israel/Zionists, then I have to conclude that you (again, generally speaking) are not a true patriot, but someone with another agenda, masking as a patriot.


Everyday, I am reminded of the special interests that control our politicians, our media and paint some as barbarians and others' as saints. It is not hard to notice. 

But wouldn't it be SOOO HILARIOUS and SOO INGENIOUS if there really wasn't this conflict at all --- that this muslim/jew thing was just another ploy to help destroy.... Just like we are pitted against each other -- left vs. right, lets not stop there..... Lets bring that manipluation into one of the greatest forces that control humans, religion. Us against them!!! What a genious manuever.
Till that becomes more obvious, I'll just follow the money.

also, call me paranoid - but I get the distinct feeling you are here to sniff out 'jew haters'. why is that?

----------


## fj45lvr

> Maybe they'll learn from the Jewish people how regaining one's stolen homeland is done. One can hope.


 
hahahaha and you believe that??? 

Your obviously one that believes in "eretz" Israel so no matter what you are confronted with it will always lead to one end.

There is no use in trying to dispute anything logically with you or the subject of the OP (the rabbi). A good illustration as to why the U.S. should in fact stop supporting the facade. I wouldn't give a nickel let alone my life to violate common sense for the fools in Palestine/Israel or fight their imaginary wars against the Islamic boogeyman even though I am jewish.


Ben Gurion stated it best: 




> If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an
> agreement with Israel. It is normal; *we have taken their
> country.* It is true God promised it to us, but how could
> that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have *stolen* their country. Why would they accept that?

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## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## ElyaKatz

*ARE THE SETTLEMENTS LEGAL?* 

by Eugene V. Rostow 

*ARE SETTLEMENTS ILLEGAL?*

by Jerold Auerbach 

Political rights to self-determination as a polity for Arabs were guaranteed by the League of Nations in four other mandates – in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and later Trans-Jordan [today Jordan].

*From Myths & Facts “Mandate for Palestine” The Legal Aspects of Jewish Rights*

International law expert Professor Eugene V. Rostow, examining the claim for Arab Palestinian self-determination on the basis of law, concluded:

“… the mandate implicitly denies Arab claims to national political rights in the area in favor of the Jews; the mandated territory was in effect reserved to the Jewish people for their self-determination and political development, in acknowledgment of the historic connection of the Jewish people to the land. Lord Curzon, who was then the British Foreign Minister, made this reading of the mandate explicit. There remains simply the theory that the Arab inhabitants of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip have an inherent ‘natural law’ claim to the area. Neither customary international law nor the United Nations Charter acknowledges that every group of people claiming to be a nation has the right to a state of its own.”26 [italics by author] 

*Myths & Facts Online - Settlements*

By Mitchell G. Bard

*Excerpt:*

MYTH

“Israel has no right to be in the West Bank. Israeli settlements are illegal.”

FACT

Jews have lived in Judea and Samaria — the West Bank — since ancient times. The only time Jews have been prohibited from living in the territories in recent decades was during Jordan's rule from 1948 to 1967. This prohibition was contrary to the Mandate for Palestine adopted by the League of Nations, which provided for the establishment of a Jewish state, and specifically encouraged “close settlement by Jews on the land,” which included Judea and Samaria.

Numerous legal authorities dispute the charge that settlements are “illegal.” Stephen Schwebel, formerly President of the International Court of Justice, notes that a country acting in self-defense may seize and occupy territory when necessary to protect itself. Schwebel also observes that a state may require, as a condition for its withdrawal, security measures designed to ensure its citizens are not menaced again from that territory.1

According to Eugene Rostow, a former Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs in the Johnson Administration, Resolution 242 gives Israel a legal right to be in the West Bank. The resolution, Rostow noted, “allows Israel to administer the territories” it won in 1967 “until ‘'a just and lasting peace in the Middle East’' is achieved.”

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## ElyaKatz

> So, you make a very general statement then wax poetic about evil muslims, good jews. Ok, great.
> If google is your friend, then all you would have to do is search for jewish influence in banking, media, politics and pretty much come to the conclusion that muslims influence is little league compared to the claws jewish influence plays in US manipulation. There is absolutely no comparision. 
> 
> You make a lot of claims re the alleged Jewish influence and manipulation. So, post your links.


If you're interested a point of view besides your own, then you'll look at the video, and do your own research. If you use the search term "Saudi influence on American institutions" you will come up with enough reading material to keep you busy for at least a day or so. It's not as easy to find as AIPAC, because the Saudis are focusing more on behind the scenes projects, such as our institutions of higher learning, though they are also working their way into our public school system, and on our financial institutions. See, that's the thing about real conspiracies...the conspirators prefer to keep their strategies to themselves. They don't walk into Alex Jones' studio and announce themselves. It's much more stealthy. It takes a bit more research to ferret things out, but because we do have a Freedom of Information Act, it can be done. But no one is going to spoon feed you the truth.

I've done some research on Saudi influence, I have lots and lots of links to various newspaper articles, book reviews etc. and have listened to a few audios of others who've looked more deeply into it. It's simply common sense that the rich Saudi kingdom will buy influence in America, Europe and elsewhere in order to promote their agenda. I gave you a few links. Do your own research. I have no obligation to do your research for you.

I'm more interested in upholding Israel's right to self-defense (positive) than bringing even the Muslims down (negative) a notch or two. Islamic extremists have an agenda that is most definitely not good for America, and I'm aware of it. I like to put a few things out there to get others thinking. I've have looked into the role political Islam is playing in shaping world politics, probably more than the average Joe, but I don't focus on it so much in my own life. Doing good for others is the best strategy for "tikkun olam". Makes for a more enjoyable personality too.

Here's one reason why I choose to focus on the positive, rather than the negative: *The 1929 Arab Terror Attack: When Hebron Became Occupied Territory*. I know about all this kind of stuff, all the irrational hatred. I understand the Islamic agenda. I understand the agenda of White Supremacist groups, Neo-Nazi groups. I know they're out there, and at least some of what makes them tick. It's important to be aware, but focusing more on one's enemies and not enough on solutions can make a person crazy. Or at least very grumpy. Blinders are not good, but neither is obsessing about the bad guys.




> Now, here is where I have to either agree with you or question my own patriotism. C'mon, this grade 3 manipulation. You will have to do better than this.


Think what you want. I never named you specifically. It's a principle I go by, that's all. It is obvious that folks who refuse to look into radical Islam and yet are constantly ragging about the "Jews" and the "Zionists" -- have an agenda that supersedes their own patriotism. Even if they are kidding themselves, they are not fooling anyone around them, except those as deluded as they.




> also, call me paranoid - but I get the distinct feeling you are here to sniff out 'jew haters'. why is that?


I don't know. I can't read your mind and am not privy to the inner workings of your conscience. 

I'm not here to do anything except express the truth as I see it with re to how we as Americans can protect our freedoms. There are a lot more people here than you, and I hope they are reading what I write and looking into the links I provide. I hope they are opening their minds.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> That was shameless...I bet 99% Americans didn't see those pictures of children incinerated by incendiary shells dropped by IDF...do I need to tell the reason why?
> Arab propaganda (wrt to Israel) is only about exposing Israeli atrocities on captive civilians of Gaza. It's funny how truth about Israel is always anti-semitic and propaganda...


There aren't many people sitting on the fence anymore. Few people who can honestly claim objectivity. I don't. I admit my bias. I don't believe Muslim/Arab propaganda because they lie all the time.

*Operation Cast Lead* - Jewish Virtual Library

*The 2nd Draft* - proves that the Muslims have a fake "atrocities" video brainwashing industry going for your benefit RPfanf2008.

Radical Islamists lie to non-Muslims as a policy in warfare. They have destroyed their credibility.

----------


## Bman

> I'm not here to do anything except express the truth as I see it with re to how we as Americans can protect our freedoms.


An idea for your next topic would probably need to be titled something like "Why America needs to get the hell out of the Middle East."

----------


## ElyaKatz

> hahahaha and you believe that??? 
> 
> Your obviously one that believes in "eretz" Israel so no matter what you are confronted with it will always lead to one end.


Yes, I believe in Eretz Israel and in G-d's promises to the Jewish people and to all of mankind, no matter what.




> There is no use in trying to dispute anything logically with you or the subject of the OP (the rabbi).


No one is forcing you to try and argue with me. 




> A good illustration as to why the U.S. should in fact stop supporting the facade. I wouldn't give a nickel let alone my life to violate common sense for the fools in Palestine/Israel or fight their imaginary wars against the Islamic boogeyman...


I would love the US to step aside and discontinue all foreign aid as well. I've state it over and over and over. Yeah, those imaginary rockets and bus bombings. We are so clever that way.




> ...even though I am jewish.


Your loss. It's a zchut to help fellow Jews. 




> Ben Gurion stated it best:


You'd have to give me the link to where you copied the quote, or the book citation for me to take any of your quotes seriously, because I know Benny Morris and other "New Israeli Historians" have misquoted him and other Israeli leaders, as well as taken them out of context.

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

----------


## fj45lvr

> ISRAELI VIOLATIONS OF INTERNATIONAL LAW
> 
> * Major Legal Principle Violated -
> o 1. Acquisition of Territory by Military Conquest is Illegal
> o 2. Occupation (either Legal or Illegal) is Generally Temporary and Must Never Lead To Sovereignty over Occupied or Conquered Lands of the Enemy People or Nation.
> * As Per International Law -
> o UN Charter, article 2, para. 4 (1945) 
> o Declaration On Principles Of International Law Concerning Friendly Relations And Co-Operation Among States In Accordance With The Charter Of The United Nations (1970), Principle 1
> o Hague Regulations IV (1907), articles 43 & 55
> ...


 
Is there a section about "right of return"???

----------


## ElyaKatz

> An idea for your next topic would probably need to be titled something like "Why America needs to get the hell out of the Middle East."


America needs to come home, and worry about America.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> You are regurgitating propaganda that ignores the French translation and international law.


Why would I bother with a translation, when I can read what the authors of UN Resolution 242 and 338 all wrote re the meaning of the resolution? It's like claiming the KJV is more authoritative than the original Hebrew/Aramaic version of the Bible. It just ain't so.

Can you produce a credible source outside of yourself which claims the French translation of these UN Resolutions are equally credible and hold just as much weight under international law as the English version?? I would really be interested.

Here is a somewhat useful source, though the credibility is sometimes debatable...

*Wikipedia on UN Resolution 242*

Whether or not the French version carries equal weight if apparently also a very debatable topic, though French and English are the two working languages for the Security Council.

I lean towards the following argument. 

_"The Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America argues the practice at the UN is that the binding version of any resolution is the one voted upon. In the case of 242 that version was in English, so they assert the English version the only binding one. David A. Korn asserts that this was indeed the position held by the United States and United Kingdom:

    ... both the British and the Americans pointed out that 242 was a British resolution; therefore, the English language text was authoritative and would prevail in any dispute over interpretation."_

*and*
_
"Opponents of the "all territories" reading remind that the UN Security Council declined to adopt a draft resolution, including the definite article, far prior to the adoption of Resolution 242. They argue that, in interpreting a resolution of an international organization, one must look to the process of the negotiation and adoption of the text. This would make the text in English, the language of the discussion, take precedence."_

It's best, of course, to read both sides of the debate which is at the link entitled "*French version vs. English version of text*"

I'm not going to quote extensively here. The section entitled "The Drafting Process" is also enlightening.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Is there a section about "right of return"???


There is a section in the Mandate about the Jewish right to close settlement in Mandated Palestine. That right has never been abrogated, and it is doubtful it could ever be legally abrogated. The "right of return" is what the Jewish people wrote into their own laws once the nation became sovereign.

I've already put links up which point these facts out clearly. Read them.

----------


## Feenix566

There's no such thing as international law. The UN is horse $#@!. Neither side of the Arab / Israeli conflict has the moral high ground. It's none of the United States' business.

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I don't agree and I am going to make a comparison.  Illegal immigration in the United States.  After illegal immigrants have been in the U.S. for decades does the passage of time make it legal?
> 
> Illegal immigration by Jews to the region is the root cause for the uprising of native people.


Actually, Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah rather likes the idea of Jewish immigration to Israel, legal or otherwise:

_"If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide. (Daily Star, Oct. 23, 2002)"_

The "native" people were Arabs immigrating from Arab nations in the region which had been set aside for them. The Palesting Mandate was specifically set aside for Jews, not Arabs.

There was much more illegal immigration of Arabs into the region. And they weren't fleeing from Hitler. They were trying to get better jobs. The difference is, every movement of Jews into the region was duly noted and recorded. In fact, there were estimates of how many Jews would immigrate illegallly, and those estimates were deducted from the already ridiculously low quotas.

The Brits turned a blind eye to Arab immigration. They only fess up to the fact when various officials would send correspondence to one another re Arab rioting, which gave them headaches.

*From Myths & Facts “Mandate for Palestine” The Legal Aspects of Jewish Rights*
_
International law expert Professor Eugene V. Rostow, examining the claim for Arab Palestinian self-determination on the basis of law, concluded:

“… the mandate implicitly denies Arab claims to national political rights in the area in favor of the Jews; the mandated territory was in effect reserved to the Jewish people for their self-determination and political development, in acknowledgment of the historic connection of the Jewish people to the land. Lord Curzon, who was then the British Foreign Minister, made this reading of the mandate explicit. There remains simply the theory that the Arab inhabitants of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip have an inherent ‘natural law’ claim to the area. Neither customary international law nor the United Nations Charter acknowledges that every group of people claiming to be a nation has the right to a state of its own.”_

Islamic fanaticism re infidels is the root cause of the Middle Eastern conflict. See first quote in you doubt this. If they ever succeed in their agenda in America, it will be a very, very sad day. But one silver lining will be the knowledge that apologists for their Islamic friends might finally figure out how wrong they were. Of course, some will probably continue to weasel out of their responsibility in such horrors, should that dark day arrive (G-d forbid) and once again, blame the Jews.

----------


## fj45lvr

> There is a section in the Mandate about the Jewish right to close settlement in Mandated Palestine. That right has never been abrogated, and it is doubtful it could ever be legally abrogated. The "right of return" is what the Jewish people wrote into their own laws once the nation became sovereign.
> 
> I've already put links up which point these facts out clearly. Read them.


I'm referring to the right for Palestinian property owners to return to their lands (which I think is something given to people under International law).   What of those that hold title to lands?? I personally know some families in that situation.

----------


## Bman

> America needs to come home, and worry about America.


That works also

----------


## ElyaKatz

> That works also


Yup.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I'm referring to the right for Palestinian property owners to return to their lands (which I think is something given to people under International law).   What of those that hold title to lands?? I personally know some families in that situation.


When will the Arab nations recompense Jews who had lived in Arab lands, sometimes since the Babylonian exile? Many arrived in Israel with nothing but the clothes on their backs. The Arab nations tossed them out, took their homes and their money. It's amazing how quickly Israel absorbed her refugees, and yet, we have the Arabs who fled in 1948, still sitting in squalid refugee camps. Considering the that the number of Jewish to Arab refugees was comparable, and considering the size of the 22 Arab nations compared to Israel, and then considering the wealth of the Arab nations compared to Israel, well, it's tragic. 

YouTube - The Forgotten Refugees - The Only Authentic Version - Part 1

----------


## fj45lvr

> When will the Arab nations recompense Jews who had lived in Arab lands, sometimes since the Babylonian exile? Many arrived in Israel with nothing but the clothes on their backs. The Arab nations tossed them out, took their homes and their money. It's amazing how quickly Israel absorbed her refugees, and yet, we have the Arabs who fled in 1948, still sitting in squalid refugee camps. Considering the that the number of Jewish to Arab refugees was comparable, and considering the size of the 22 Arab nations compared to Israel, and then considering the wealth of the Arab nations compared to Israel, well, it's tragic.


 
It is indeed tragic if you believe in "private property" which is the foundation of the U.S. Constitution.

If you or your family had a home, possessions, or farm and you couldn't rightfully possess it you wouldn't take it too well either (I don't disagree that I would choose to stay in a squalid refugee camp: NOT ). This dislocation is the part that really gets in my craw about the foreigner jewish settlers pouring in and what they did in 1948 because it was unjust and created the lasting animosity to revenge that persists (they of all people should have realized that as they had just gone through it in many instances in Europe).

it is crazy to believe that the other "arab" states are going to welcome these people with open arms....yeah, some of them are eager to get CHEAP LABOR!!!  But let's face it, if you lived in California why should you just say "bag it" and start over in Idaho when your loved ones had a history, were buried and you may have liked living there....I'd say some weak people would leave with their tails between their legs but many fight (the native Americans are example to it as well).

----------


## ElyaKatz

> If you or your family had a home, possessions, or farm and you couldn't rightfully possess it you wouldn't take it too well either (I don't disagree that I would choose to stay in a squalid refugee camp: NOT ). This dislocation is the part that really gets in my craw about the foreigner jewish settlers pouring in and what they did in 1948 because it was unjust and created the lasting animosity to revenge that persists (they of all people should have realized that as they had just gone through it in many instances in Europe).


Repeating Muslim/Arab revisionist history over and over doesn't make it true. But you are right that many uninformed and misinformed people will begin to believe disinformation (lies), the bigger the better.

*AN ANSWER TO THE NEW ANTI-ZIONISTS:
THE RIGHTS OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE TO A
SOVEREIGN STATE IN THEIR HISTORIC HOMELAND
* *by Dore Gold and Jeff Helmreich*
_Although Israel won its existence more than fifty years ago, a new and insidious critique has begun to spread, attacking anew the legitimacy of Israel's very establishment as a Jewish state. The new line does not come from Tehran or Riyadh but, surprisingly from largely European intellectuals and certain voices on the fringe American Left, surfacing recently in The Guardian and The New York Review of Books. It proposes the elimination of Israel and is generally accompanied by calls to establish a bi-national Palestinian-Jewish state in its place.1 The new anti-Zionists invariably start with the claim that there are no Jewish rights to sovereignty in Israel, or that, in any case, Jewish nationalism is inherently unjust.

Curiously, this campaign is accompanied by no corresponding questions about the validity of any other of the more than 190 states that belong to the UN, whether they resemble Israel or not. There is no such scrutiny of the mini-states of Europe - from Liechtenstein to the Vatican - or the multi-tribal states of Africa, many of which are breaking down. Nor is there any questioning of the rights of expressly Catholic, Protestant, or Muslim states to exist. The exclusive focus on Israel raises troubling questions about the real motives of these commentators. As Michael Gove, assistant editor of the Times of London, recently noted: "I do not know how newspapers can get away with it. You can have criticism of the State of Israel but it is entirely different to say it shouldn't exist. It is applying to the Jew a different standard than you apply to anyone else."2_ 

*Did the Zionist Jews take something
away from the Arabs in British Mandate
'Palestine'?*
_Introduction

It is a widespread belief that the Zionist Jews came to Palestine to dispossess and oppress the Arabs who lived there. The truth, however, is that the Jews came to buy land from anyone who wanted to sell, and that the Arabs in Palestine have only ever been oppressed by other Arabs.

I shall make my case by quoting extensively from an anti-Zionist historian: Nathan Weinstock. Why? Because if the data collected by an anti-Zionist (despite his loud protestations) shows the Zionist Jews to be innocent, then the case against the Zionist Jews falls on its face.

First, let us get a picture for how the Arabs oppressed the Arabs in British Mandate Palestine._

*WHAT IS  "PALESTINIAN LAND" AND WHO ARE THE "PALESTINIANS"?*

by Dafna Yee_
"As you can imagine, these landowners were really angry when the Jews DID settle on the land and remain there permanently. But, their anger (which was fueled in a large part from fear of the Jews' teaching the Arabs new ideas which would spoil their lovely feudal system) does not negate the fact that the Jews did NOT steal the Arabs' land! It was a sop to wounded pride to tell people that the land was stolen rather than how they misjudged the Jews' abilities and determination when it was sold.

Another important point is that, even if the land had been occupied, it still doesn't mean that the Jews stole the land; occupation of property has no actual relationship to ownership or the sale of property. Even today, if you rent a house, the landlord can sell it at any time and you'd have no claim to that house no matter how attached to it you were or how long you had resided there. If your response to the sale was to bomb the people who bought the house because of your "humiliation," your "wounded feelings" would not stop you from being charged with murder and no one would consider the bombing justified! Yet, many people seem willing, even eager, to accept that exact same excuse from the Arabs for their terrorist acts and they are not even speaking of land that they or their families ever lived on let alone owned!"_

----------


## lester1/2jr

the status quo pre zionism will return after zionism.

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

----------


## fj45lvr

> Repeating Muslim/Arab revisionist history over and over doesn't make it true. But you are right that many uninformed and misinformed people will begin to believe disinformation (lies), the bigger the better.
> 
> *AN ANSWER TO THE NEW ANTI-ZIONISTS:*
> *THE RIGHTS OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE TO A*
> *SOVEREIGN STATE IN THEIR HISTORIC HOMELAND*
> *by Dore Gold and Jeff Helmreich* 
> _Although Israel won its existence more than fifty years ago, a new and insidious critique has begun to spread, attacking anew the legitimacy of Israel's very establishment as a Jewish state. The new line does not come from Tehran or Riyadh but, surprisingly from largely European intellectuals and certain voices on the fringe American Left, surfacing recently in The Guardian and The New York Review of Books. It proposes the elimination of Israel and is generally accompanied by calls to establish a bi-national Palestinian-Jewish state in its place.1 The new anti-Zionists invariably start with the claim that there are no Jewish rights to sovereignty in Israel, or that, in any case, Jewish nationalism is inherently unjust._
> 
> _Curiously, this campaign is accompanied by no corresponding questions about the validity of any other of the more than 190 states that belong to the UN, whether they resemble Israel or not. There is no such scrutiny of the mini-states of Europe - from Liechtenstein to the Vatican - or the multi-tribal states of Africa, many of which are breaking down. Nor is there any questioning of the rights of expressly Catholic, Protestant, or Muslim states to exist. The exclusive focus on Israel raises troubling questions about the real motives of these commentators. As Michael Gove, assistant editor of the Times of London, recently noted: "I do not know how newspapers can get away with it. You can have criticism of the State of Israel but it is entirely different to say it shouldn't exist. It is applying to the Jew a different standard than you apply to anyone else."2_ 
> ...


 
I personally know Palestinian families that lost their homes and land....it is NOT A LIE or "propaganda"....

what are you smoking???   The Israeli government has offered them a settlement amount (a pittance) which they have refused to accept.  Their families owned the land for 300 years before the Israelis invaded.

----------


## lester1/2jr

> Actually, Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah rather likes the idea of Jewish immigration to Israel, legal or otherwise:
> 
> "If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide. (Daily Star, Oct. 23, 2002)"


and you want to help him achieve this

----------


## ElyaKatz

> You can't make a valid land claim like this unless you are willing to explain 1) how the covenant God made with Abraham the Hebrew and his hereditary descendants applies to gentiles


I don't think it does, not where Eretz Israel is concerned. But your definition of "gentiles" is just that...your definition. HKB"H did not give you authority over what the children of Israel (Judah was one of his kids too) decided in regards to the Torah and how to apply it. You've tried this with me before. It holds no credibility with any serious scholar anywhere.




> and 2) prove the hereditary lineage of Jews in the state of Israel to prevent fraudulent land claim assertions.


Been done already. We've done an excellent job throughout our dispersion of keeping track of who is Jewish and who is not. Our historical connection is recognized by serious scholars, historians, religious leaders (even Muslim religious leaders who choose to be honest) and finally, through the Balfour Declaration, the League of Nations and the Palestine Mandate. I've posted and posted links. You can read them or you can keep your eyes and ears shut tight to anything that might disagree with your particular line of thinking. Your decision.




> The more zionists stir the propaganda pot the more likely that are going to awaken a sleeping giant and have it backfire in their face.  Who was it who said recently that it is far easier to kill a million people today than control a million people today?


The opposite principle is usually the one in operation. The more the Jewish people ignore lies perpetrated against them, the worse our situation usually becomes. Bullies like a weak, defenseless victim. The propaganda that preceded the Holocaust is ample evidence. Be quiet when someone lies and eventually more people will lie, and then more people will believe the lie and eventually -- lots of dead victims of the lie.

We're done with that strategy.

----------


## Lord Xar

WorldNetDaily sends out a "the islamic terrorists are infilitrating DC" email a few days ago...
Now,  4 GOP lawmakers want an investigation into "terrorists infilitrating DC...."

and all this on the heels of ElyaKatz's posts.. makes one wonder.

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

----------


## Diogenese_

It should have died the moment is was born.

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

----------


## ElyaKatz

BS"D

Yeah. I agree. Slandering R' Manis Friedman Shlita is very wrong. As soon as such slander was put up, it should have been taken down. He made clear the meaning of his words. It's not like he's the first person in a magazine interview who's words were published in a misleading manner. If you can, please try and actually read the entire clarification by R' Friedman. 

Rabbi Manis Friedman clarifies comments in Moment Magazine

*I would like to clarify the answer published in my name in last month's issue of Moment Magazine.

First of all, the opinions published in my name are solely my own, and do not represent the official policy of any Jewish movement or organization.

Additionally, my answer, as written, is misleading.

It is obvious, I thought, that any neighbor of the Jewish people should be treated, as the Torah commands us, with respect and compassion. Fundamental to the Jewish faith is the concept that every human being was created in the image of G-d, and our sages instruct us to support the non-Jewish poor along with the poor of our own brethren.

Now pay attention:::
The sub-question I chose to address instead is: how should we act in time of war, when our neighbors attack us, using their women, children and religious holy places as shields. I attempted to briefly address some of the ethical issues related to forcing the military to withhold fire from certain people and places, at the unbearable cost of widespread bloodshed (on both sides!) -- when one’s own family and nation is mercilessly targeted from those very people and places.

Furthermore, some of the words I used in my brief comment were irresponsible, and I look forward to further clarifying them in a future issue.

I apologize for any misunderstanding my words created.

-- Rabbi Manis Friedman* 

*From It's Good to Know*

The website of Rabbi Manis Friedman, Shlita

----------


## ElyaKatz

> What are you talking about? We're quoting his words, verbatim, it's what he wrote in that "Ask the Rabbis" link (in the bottom of the page).


Did you click the link? I copied what was on the link verbatim. He clarified his words in a questionnaire, but some here are sooo determined to think the worst. If you want to take someone's words and twist their intended meaning, that's your problem, not mine.

Now here's a group who's words can't be misunderstood.

YouTube - Hamas In Their Own Voices

----------


## ElyaKatz

> The thread was born on a direct quote.


Which was lifted out of a questionnaire, in which the circumstances under which such a situation would have to be so harshly dealt with were assumed by the Rabbi to be known by the magazine. His assumption that they would understand the context was the mistake. 

But hey, go ahead and continue the slander. The results, G-d forbid, will be on your head, not mine.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> And this is why you have no credibility.


Says you, who have not presented a single solid link for anyone so that we may understand your reasoning. Just repeat of the same blather.

As for the rest of the post, it's a repeat of a repeat of a repeat. I've gone around in circles with you, and have provided more than ample proof of the Jewish claim, from all perspectives, to Eretz Israel. It is unassailable. The only mistake that has been made? The Israeli government doesn't operate within the framework of confidence in the Jewish claim. The government is filled with appeasers.

You're not one to be convinced by history or historians, historical precedent, by the Scriptures, legal analysis, the League of Nations Mandate, nor the Palestine Mandate, which is a UN Trust that cannot be rescinded until the territories are either absorbed by a sovereign nation, in this case, Jordan or Israel, (Jordan has given up it's claim to this land) or themselves become a sovereign nation. This has not happened yet with Judea and Samaria. They continue to be administered by Israel, as allowed by the Palestine Mandate, until such a time as secured and recognized international borders are determined, and peace prevails. These conditions have not been met, and thus those territories remain in trust, they can be settled by Jews under the same rights given to Jews by the same Palestine Mandate which allows us to settle Haifa, and Tel Aviv. You don't like it? You don't recognize those facts? Fine. What do 6 million determined Jews who will no longer be pushed around in Israel care?

Answer: Not one bit.

The Palestine Mandate gives the Jewish people the right to live in all of Western Palestine. Not reversible. Most of the nations surrounding Israel, as well as other nations around the world, were created under similar circumstances. How about you shower some of your erudite analysis of the precariousness of their respective nationhoods on them? Start with Lichtenstein.

You will not be convinced by the fact that there is simply no people on the face of the earth which has so carefully chronicled it's history, from the beginning of nationhood until this day -- none -- besides the Children of Israel, one of whom was Judah -- which after the Babylonian exile were thenceforth referred to as Jews. Etymology just mystifies you, eh?? And Hebrew too, as in Hebrew, we are called "Yehudim"... in Arabic "Yahood". Very interesting.

Only Judahite websites hold sway with you -- your _amazing_ source of "received wisdom". Such an internet scholar. One can only hope you're not as gullible when reading health care sites. Might have some real-life consequences for you.

As for your constant slander of rabbis, Jews, the nation of Israel...the accumulation of this stands a good chance of having real life consequences for people I love and care about, chas v'shalom. These are not only academic questions for me, my friend. And if me and mine are harmed in the future, because the world once again goes insane and decides to turn on the Jewish people like a bunch of rabid dogs, as has happened in the past too many times to count, it will partially be because of the sort of BS you and people like you take so much pleasure in spewing. 

I will look forward to the day when HKB"H calls you and others like you on said slander -- should you choose to continue. I _sincerely_ hope you choose to repent. Not for my sake. For yours. Because after all is said and done, even if my family and friends suffer, _we will be fine_. We are promised a wonderful future. In the end. Not so with people who spread lies and cause harm to others with their lies.

G-d help you. Terrible as justice is, it's is a good thing.

----------


## lester1/2jr

> I've gone around in circles with you, and have provided more than ample proof of the Jewish claim, from all perspectives, to Eretz Israel. It is unassailable.


lol.  again that's not how it works.  you don't DECIDE and STATE something is unassailable.




> What do 6 million determined Jews who will no longer be pushed around in Israel care?


until they stop taking our welfare checks they HAVE to care.  free money isn't really free




> I sincerely hope you choose to repent.


for disagreeing with you! lol

----------


## ElyaKatz

> lol.  again that's not how it works.  you don't DECIDE and STATE something is unassailable.


The sources I have cited which make the moral, historical and legal case for the Jewish right to settle in all of Western Palestine is impeccable, no matter what joker sources antiZionists may dream and claim.




> until they stop taking our welfare checks they HAVE to care.  free money isn't really free


While I don't agree with the concept of foreign aid, the money given to Israel, really coupons to purchase weapons, which supplies Americans with jobs they might not otherwise have, is more than offset by what America gains in return. I will be looking forward to that ending as well. 

The fact that you focus so exclusively on Israel's foreign aid, with nary a word regarding the Muslim world's aid, which is far greater when added together than what Israel receives, really speaks volumes.[/QUOTE]

Reasonable minds can see through the anti-Zionist BS. I find it interesting that when Arab organizations which clearly state they intend to take over the American legal system and way of life are criticized on several threads here by a few brave souls, so many here run to those threads and cry bigotry. Not so when all sorts of lies and insults are hurled at Zionists. No one is fooled, except, as I've stated before, those who dwell in the confines of their own echo chambers. But those echo chambers are simply not reality.




> for disagreeing with you! lol


For insisting on misunderstanding a good man though he has made himself very clear. And for joining in with the mockers and the scoffers of the world, and insisting on libeling the people who, without the system of justice they chose to embrace in order to bless the world, you would not know right from wrong. Good people can disagree on the subject of Israel and whether it should ever have come into being. Jews do it all the time, even  heatedly. However, there is an underlying commitment to respect and kindness that prevails in those discussions which I find severely lacking when I debate you, in spite of my best efforts to remain respectful of you. Respect in debate allows all parties to walk away from said disagreements not feeling slimed.

People who take pleasure in being unkind and ungenerous will find the same coming back to them at some point.

----------


## ElyaKatz

BS"D 

repeat post, computer glitch.

----------


## Diogenese_

> The thread was born on a direct quote.


And the man has expanded upon that quote, but even if he had not - he is only one man, extreme in his views.    If this is supposed to be a place for "grass roots political activism"  Why is it that useless threads like this get so much attention?

Is it the sheeple effect?   Gang together and concentrate and complain about  something irrelevant that makes you feel important and better than "them" ?

----------


## Diogenese_

> As for your constant slander of rabbis, Jews, the nation of Israel...the accumulation of this stands a good chance of having real life consequences for people I love and care about, chas v'shalom. These are not only academic questions for me, my friend. And if me and mine are harmed in the future, because the world once again goes insane and decides to turn on the Jewish people like a bunch of rabid dogs, as has happened in the past too many times to count, it will partially be because of the sort of BS you and people like you take so much pleasure in spewing.


I have no problem with the Jewish people, of even with the idea of a homeland in Israel.  What I have a BIG problem with is Israeli interference with the U.S. government and our internal affairs.   

I believe it is these activities which are most likely to cause  people to turn against Israel.   It should mind its own house and leave ours alone.

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

----------


## lester1/2jr

> The sources I have cited which make the moral, historical and legal case for the Jewish right to settle in all of Western Palestine is impeccable


no they aren't.




> While I don't agree with the concept of foreign aid, the money given to Israel, really coupons to purchase weapons, which supplies Americans with jobs they might not otherwise have, is more than offset by what America gains in return


apparently you have no clue how the economy works, you should read some ron paul.  those weapons are paid for with TAXPAYER dollars.  it is a simply government expenditure and were they not spent those resources could go elsewhere.  

and we get TERRORISM in return which is not a great investment I think everyone would agree





> The fact that you focus so exclusively on Israel's foreign aid, with nary a word regarding the Muslim world's aid



well again, and I've made this point to you before but because you are apparently not capable of responsing to it so here we are again.  we give aid to israels neighbors FOR ISRAEL. the Camp David accords were not where we decided "Hey lets give some money to egypt and Israel just for laughs" it was part of a PEACE AGREEMENT.  we give dictators billions for similar understandings not because we like them.  not surprisingly the PEOPLE of these countries hate when we do this.

You know about the people right?  the dictators the US coddles for israel don't represent their people. so when people like you talk about Saudi Arabia or Jordan being pro israel or at peace with israel, you know the people have the OPPOSITE feeling.  you know that right? I think you do




> Reasonable minds can see through the anti-Zionist BS


so being anti zionist is bs? thanks alot. I think zionism is bs what do you think of that?




> find it interesting that when Arab organizations which clearly state they intend to take over the American legal system and way of life are criticized on several threads here by a few brave souls


because there is no threat of muslims taking over our legal system.  that will never ever happen.  if muslims were to somehow attempt some sort of revolution our incredibly massive military would destroy them.  gun ownership is also at an all time high! we woldn't even need the army!

but a war with iran for israel is VERY likely and Israels presence in washington is a fact.  thus, people wisely see them as the bigger or actual threat




> People who take pleasure in being unkind and ungenerous will find the same coming back to them at some point


I'd LOVE it if you respnded rudely to me. most of the time you don't respond to me AT ALL and when you do you use arguments you've ALREADY USED.  I don't care though. I don't care if you respond to me or not.  I'm not writing these responses for you I'm writing them for people who read this thread.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> You have yet to educate this forum on how the covenant of Abraham applies to gentiles.


Who are the "gentiles" you are referring to? We've been down this path before. You and I do not see eye to eye on a few basic principles. I accept the authority of Rabbinic Judaism. I see the authority of Rabbinic Judaism as being derived directly from the Torah, in Parsha Shoftim, as one example. You do not.

I don't accept your definition of who a gentile is, and I don't accept your dismissal of the Jews as legitimate children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, thus as legitimate heirs of the Covenant of Abraham and all it entails, including Eretz Israel. 

You seem to think that because we accept those who are born as gentiles into the Jewish fold, that we are thus disinherited. That is preposterous to me and not worth arguing with you. We have no starting point at which to even have a discussion, we are so far apart in our thinking.




> I see you are stooping to personal threats under the guise of religion.


*Not at all. Now read what I am writing here. I am taking time out not because I hold you in contempt or wish ill on you. I do think the teachings you follow are very confused and will only serve to harm you, and others. I am talking straight to you about your future if you choose to follow these teachings you are so attached to.*

I believe you have attached yourself to these teachings in a misguided effort to find closeness and a meaningful, deep relationship with G-d. You do not need to be Jewish to have a close relationship with your Father in Heaven, your Abba. Christianity has succeeded in making non-Jews think that Jews have the same views on "salvation". In the Jewish view, you do not need to be Jewish, not like in Christianity, or in Islam. We learn that all the Righteous of the Nations have a share in the World to Come.

I and my entire family and community will probably suffer in the near future due to the sort of baseless lies you and others are spreading, (chas v'shalom) and that others seem happy to gobble up in order to comfort themselves as the US economy sinks into chaos -- again, may it never be. _Always happens this way._ We have lots of experience with this sort of thing, and a very long memory. So, we see what is coming, again, chas v'shalom, I hope I am wrong.

_When justice is served to both you and I_, (and we all have some wrongdoing that we will answer for) if the Jewish people experience another great conflagration, I probably won't be able to do enough to protect myself or my family, not that I am going to remain passive. As for justice, it will happen. I will not need to do a thing. Justice is simply promised to us both. Mercy is promised to those who are truly seeking G-d and His ways. 

I am not saying bad things will necessarily happen. We always have the opportunity to avert evil decrees. Just look at Ninevah. It takes genuine, broken repentance and restitution. So, I must emphasize over and over -- may G-d have mercy on us all, you and I. I do hope for your sake, that you find the truth and choose to repent of what I see as contemptuous and hateful views of the Jewish people.

There is One Boss. He is in charge of my future, yours and everyone else's. Recognizing Who He Is, and What His program is for the world, and fearing Him in a reverential manner, is the beginning of wisdom and the beginning of life for you. The Creator of the Universe, Blessed Be He, loves you and He loves me. If He stopped thinking of either of us for one second, we each would turn to a pile of dust.

What would help you, in my opinion, is to stop reading these ridiculous "Judahite" websites, and teachers. Learn Hebrew, (it is a logical, phonetic language, it is not that difficult) and start reading the book you claim to refer to and revere, _in it's original language_. That would remove so much confusion for you. Find a Tanach, *Artscroll* is an excellent choice. I do not want or care to offend, but The Christian Old Testament is not the same thing, there are words left out, words that have been changed (of a purpose) the order of the books has been changed, Hebrew grammar is ignored or changed the translation, again for a purpose that is not in your interest. It's just a fact.

Let go of these teachings which tell you the Jewish people think badly of the nations, the non-Jews, the goyim. We do not, and if there are ignorant Jews who do, they are wrong and they are misinformed, I don't care how many initials follow their names. To be fair to my co-religionists, there is a reason for the stand-offishness. But we do need to rise above it. The most informed Rabbis do have a high opinion and hope for the nations. Maybe look into *Rabbi Chaim Richman*, or *Torah Spirituality for the Nations* on Arutz Sheva. A good book is *Path of the Righteous Gentile*.

The mission of the Jewish people, the raison d'etre, is for us to obey HaShem's Torah, and to be a Light to the Nations (again, in Hebrew the goyim. Israel is also referred to as a goy, or nation in places). There is fear among Jews, of Gentiles. I can't blame Jews for that. There is a divide. But G-d can make a bridge.

How can we be a light to the Nations if we hold non-Jews in contempt? That is the reason for all the lies that float around about Jews. It comes from gentile insecurity borne from false teachings from a book that alleges to be the Word of G-d. Thus it must be true, right? Lies. Lies. Lies. 

I know, because I have seen it, that when a gentile decides to finally be respectful of the Jewish people, to maybe admit that he or she might have something to learn from us, (shocker, eh?) to let go of the arrogance, (yes, gentiles can be very arrogant) the guard of the Jewish community is dropped.

And those stupid false quotations floating around the internet are either not in the Talmud or are totally twisted and misunderstood. More lies. Listen to R' Tovia Singer's audio on how the Talmud is constructed and how easily it can be abused because of the nature of the Talmud:_ "Does the Talmud Condone Murder, Pedophilia, and Idolatry?"_ at *Outreach Judaism* -- scroll down. It is an mp3 file. It is only about 15 minutes long if I remember correctly.

The Torah speaks love the non-Jew and the Jew alike. It is for the entire world. Those who are sincere about seeking the truth will find it.

Of course, all that Love HKB"H wants to heap on the goyim, and all the cooperation He has planned for the future between us, does not equal Jews volunteering as victims to the nations that choose to make war against us. No, no, no. Pacifism, as you well know, is misguided, and it wreaks cruelty on the families were are charged by G-d to protect.

----------


## paulim

A very good description of the katzes:
http://karinfriedemann.blogspot.com/...-advocacy.html

Excerpt:
[...]



> Obviously, those Zionists who are simply ignorant, if they are willing to hear my point of view and to ask questions in a polite way, thats different. But normally they act manipulative and do everything to prevent a normal discussion on Jews/Israel. I once reduced a 50 year old man to hysterical sobbing tears because I told him gently and lovingly that Jews were not that unique. I just told him the Jews, like everyone else, have had good times and bad times. Times when they were slaughtered and other times when they slaughtered others. Just like everyone else. Guess what he did next. He emotionally abused me in an insulting way and then cut off all further communication. Jewish behavior is so predictable that its truly scary.


[...]



> Zionists all believe in the myth of 1000 years of Jewish suffering and feel that the world owes them compensation for their ancestors unique suffering. Its a criminally insane viewpoint. They cope with the contradictions between their belief that they are the good guys and what Jews are actually doing to their neighbors, both in the Middle East and in the US, by developing mental health issues. Most Zionists are functional schizophrenics.
> 
> A few Zionists are not schizophrenic. If you say, You stole their country, they just say, Yeah, so? And what are you going to do about it? Im actually more willing to deal with those kind of Zionists because at least they are honest, and this does leave some room for discussion. But why. Just as Americans are not required to support Israel, we are not obliged to interact with racists.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I personally know Palestinian families that lost their homes and land....it is NOT A LIE or "propaganda"....
> 
> what are you smoking???   The Israeli government has offered them a settlement amount (a pittance) which they have refused to accept.  Their families owned the land for 300 years before the Israelis invaded.


YouTube - The Forgotten Refugees - 1,000,000 Jews Expelled (Part 1)
There were Arab and Jewish refugees. There were lots of refugees after WWII. How come the only ones who have not been absorbed and rehabilitated into new communities and decent homes are the Arabs?? Because the Arab community refuses that's why. If you think the Arabs have the right of return to homes they largely fled voluntarily, thinking they would return after the 5 Arab armies who invaded killed all the Jews (the stated goal) then the Jewish refugees also have a right, at least to compensation for the lands, homes, good and money that was taken from them. They did not leave voluntarily. They were thrown out of their homes, many of whom had lived in their communities since the time of the Babylonian exile.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> and you want to help him achieve this


I guess I have more confidence in HKB"H than in Nasrallah. One can hope. Look, has the Diaspora been a cake walk? 

But thanks for the sympathy.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> pdf of the opinion:  http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1677.pdf
> 
> Advisory Opinion of the International Court of Justice, July 9th 2004
> 
> pdf of the opinion:  http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1677.pdf
> 
> *International Court of Justice*


Live Free or Die: First question: Do you believe there is a G-d? Just a simple yes or no, and this is only for Live Free or Die. We just need to establish some common ground.

----------


## Old Ducker

> YouTube - The Forgotten Refugees - 1,000,000 Jews Expelled (Part 1)
> There were Arab and Jewish refugees. There were lots of refugees after WWII. How come the only ones who have not been absorbed and rehabilitated into new communities and decent homes are the Arabs?? Because the Arab community refuses that's why. If you think the Arabs have the right of return to homes they largely fled voluntarily, thinking they would return after the 5 Arab armies who invaded killed all the Jews (the stated goal) then the Jewish refugees also have a right, at least to compensation for the lands, homes, good and money that was taken from them. They did not leave voluntarily. They were thrown out of their homes, many of whom had lived in their communities since the time of the Babylonian exile.


It seems the right of return only applies to jews, and it matters not how many millenia pass, it seems.  What would you say if 1900 years from now the Nez Perce tribe lay claim on Idaho?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> It seems the right of return only applies to jews, and it matters not how many millenia pass, it seems.  What would you say if 1900 years from now the Nez Perce tribe lay claim on Idaho?


Based on the current political climate, and all the clamoring for Arab refugees to return to Israel, but no one recognizing Jewish refugees from Arab lands and those forgotten rights, I would come to the opposite conclusion.

Your facts are wrong on the Jewish presence in Eretz Israel. We first began to become landless in our own land in the mid 600's' as a result of agressive, Arab military settlements, and expropriation by those occupying Arabs of Jewish land and Jewish labor. The Romans destroyed a lot of Jews and sold a lot of us into slavery, but the Jewish peasant was still a majority on the land until then.

If someone comes and steals your home, of which you have clear title, does the passage of time make that person the rightful owner, if you continue to press your claim? We never, ever relinquished our claim. And the land was never, every devoid of a Jewish population. There would have been many more, between the mid 600's and now, had the illegal occupying powers between then and now not illegally driven us off our land, or out of the region and also illegally prevented us from returning.

To answer your question re the Nez Perce, if they do not disappear as a people and if they do not release their claim, then yes, they can press for Idaho to be returned to them. Time alone does not give clear title.

----------


## Old Ducker

> Based on the current political climate, and all the clamoring for Arab refugees to return to Israel, but no one recognizing Jewish refugees from Arab lands and those forgotten rights, I would come to the opposite conclusion.


In all honesty I dont give a $#@!.  The state of Israel is a zionist concern.  I'm a non-zionist goyim american.  Given it's influence over my country, I think it's our greatest enemy.

----------


## YumYum

> In all honesty I dont give a $#@!.  The state of Israel is a zionist concern.  I'm a non-zionist goyim american.  Given it's influence over my country, I think it's our greatest enemy.


You should care. You or your children will die for Israel. The goyisheh kopfs of this country have been duped into fighting Israel's wars.

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default...=178&nid=19790

----------


## Old Ducker

> You should care. You or your children will die for Israel. The goyisheh kopfs of this country have been duped into fighting Israel's wars.
> 
> http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default...=178&nid=19790


what can I say except "death to israel, death to zionism."  My god I sound like ahmedinejad, LOL

----------


## YumYum

> what can I say except "death to israel, death to zionism."  My god I sound like ahmedinejad, LOL


Not all Jews are shtoonks; only the Zionists are verbrennten goniffs.

----------


## Old Ducker

> Not all Jews are shtoonks; only the Zionists are verbrennten goniffs.


Ive always loved Carole King, regardless of her politics.

----------


## talkingpointes

> Ive always loved Carole King, regardless of her politics.


It's too late baby, it's just too late...

----------


## lester1/2jr

I'd like to just say thank you to ronpaul forums for allowing this discussion, unlike so many other forums and sites,  and letting us state our beliefs without getting kicked off.  it shows that censorship has been the vital component to israels takeover of our foreign plicy and getting rid of this censorship is essential to correcting this


now if I could just get elya katz to address my arguments I'd be a happy man

----------


## squarepusher

> I'd like to just say thank you to ronpaul forums for allowing this discussion, unlike so many other forums and sites,  and letting us state our beliefs without getting kicked off.  it shows that censorship has been the vital component to israels takeover of our foreign plicy and getting rid of this censorship is essential to correcting this
> 
> 
> now if I could just get elya katz to address my arguments I'd be a happy man


yes, /agree
thanks RPF for letting important and real, even if unpopular, conversations to continue

----------


## lester1/2jr

I don't consider my opinions on israel to be radical, I don't consider myself to be even anti israel I just don't want the Us to be involved in these age old disputes.  for that,I've been kicked off of more forums than I can count!

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I'd like to just say thank you to ronpaul forums for allowing this discussion, unlike so many other forums and sites,  and letting us state our beliefs without getting kicked off.  it shows that censorship has been the vital component to israels takeover of our foreign plicy and getting rid of this censorship is essential to correcting this
> 
> 
> now if I could just get elya katz to address my arguments I'd be a happy man


Which arguments lester? I've lost track, we've gotten so off-topic. I like being at this forum, but it's not my first priority in life, so I don't always read everyone's posts, or remember who said what. Just being honest here.

----------


## lester1/2jr

bottom of page 19 and eslewhere

----------


## ElyaKatz

> bottom of page 19 and eslewhere


Lester, I think I ignore your posts because early I I saw that you are not actually asking me anything. At least in the post you referenced on the bottom of page 19, you mostly stated your opinion, and one time you kind of asked a question (re Zionism) but it was actually a statement of your opinion again, in question form. I don't have the time to deal with every single anti-Zionist poster on a given thread when all they are doing is reiterating their opinions, and not actually debating me with facts which can be sourced outside of themselves. 

I've responded to the sort of comments you made several times over on my threads. I simply don't have the time or the inclination to repeat myself constantly. It's clear you and I don't and won't agree on much. So, I am satisfied to leave it at that.

----------


## YumYum

> Lester, I think I ignore your posts because early I I saw that you are not actually asking me anything. At least in the post you referenced on the bottom of page 19, you mostly stated your opinion, and one time you kind of asked a question (re Zionism) but it was actually a statement of your opinion again, in question form. I don't have the time to deal with every single anti-Zionist poster on a given thread when all they are doing is reiterating their opinions, and not actually debating me with facts which can be sourced outside of themselves. 
> 
> I've responded to the sort of comments you made several times over on my threads. I simply don't have the time or the inclination to repeat myself constantly. It's clear you and I don't and won't agree on much. So, I am satisfied to leave it at that.


Genug shoen! You argue that all of Palestine belongs to the Zionists because your G-d gave it to the Jews. So what? Were you there? Did you see it? Do you really believe the silly stories in the Old Testament? Your arguments are shmei drei. I don't think you are a zager, but your case is farfallen because it is based on myth. I know you are a gottseliger, but not everybody on this board are shmegehgehes that are vermisht, we have some very critical thinkers on this forum. If your looking for sympathy for Israel, I suggest you look in Yenim's pipik. So you think Israel has problems? HA! Nisht gefehrlach, you ought to take a good look at the kunnileemmel goniffs running this country. This country is doomed. Gornisht helfin!

----------


## rpfan2008

God must be racist.

----------


## lester1/2jr

> I've responded to the sort of comments you made several times over on my threads. I simply don't have the time or the inclination to repeat myself constantly. It's clear you and I don't and won't agree on much. So, I am satisfied to leave it at that.


well I'm not.  but  I don't care.  I'm going to keep responsing to your remarks even if you are afraid to respond to mine because, again,  I am not responding for your benfit but readers of this thread

----------


## ElyaKatz

> well I'm not.  but  I don't care.  I'm going to keep responsing to your remarks even if you are afraid to respond to mine because, again,  I am not responding for your benfit but readers of this thread


Jeez. The sniping hostility is...sort of entertaining. I'm not afraid of anything. I'm satisfied with the information I've put up. If you don't want to educate yourself on viewpoints other than your own, it's your loss.

In the post on page 19 that you referenced, you didn't ask me questions. You make statements with question marks at the end. If you can point to a question I haven't answered, an honest question, then I'll go ahead and have a dialogue with you.

I have a lot of character flaws, but fear is not one of them.

----------


## lester1/2jr

> You make statements with question marks at the end.


those are called "questions"

----------


## ElyaKatz

> those are called "questions"


No. Questions are questions. Opinions diguised as questions are just that. Opinions. You earlier said that on page 19 of this thread, bottom post you had questions. And then you stated that you had questions in other places too. I'm not going to search for them. If the post you cited is any indication of your "questions" it's a waste of my time.

*lester1/2jr's post #190 on page 19, bottom*

*#1* 


> no they aren't.


Not a question. An opinion.

*#2* 


> apparently you have no clue how the economy works, you should read some ron paul.  those weapons are paid for with TAXPAYER dollars.  it is a simply government expenditure and were they not spent those resources could go elsewhere.
> 
> and we get TERRORISM in return which is not a great investment I think everyone would agree


Not a question. An opinion.

*#3* 


> well again, and I've made this point to you before but because you are apparently not capable of responsing to it so here we are again.  we give aid to israels neighbors FOR ISRAEL. the Camp David accords were not where we decided "Hey lets give some money to egypt and Israel just for laughs" it was part of a PEACE AGREEMENT.  we give dictators billions for similar understandings not because we like them.  not surprisingly the PEOPLE of these countries hate when we do this.


Opinions. Can't find any questions here.

*#4* 


> You know about the people right?  the dictators the US coddles for israel don't represent their people. so when people like you talk about Saudi Arabia or Jordan being pro israel or at peace with israel, you know the people have the OPPOSITE feeling.  you know that right? I think you do


Okay. There are two questions here, the first very vague, and is rhetorical in nature. "You know about the people right?" I have known Israelis and Arabs in my life, if that is what you mean.

The second question you answered it yourself. I will respond to your opinions, as well as correcting your understanding of my past statements in this regard: I don't believe I mentioned Saudi Arabia or Jordan being pro-Israel. I did say that prior to the Oslo accords, there was a de-facto peace developing between Israel and her neighbors And there are certainly individuals in Saudi Arabia and Jordan that are pro-Israel. But the governments are not.
*
#5* 


> so being anti zionist is bs? thanks alot. I think zionism is bs what do you think of that?


If you are seriously asking me what I think of your statement, that "zionism is bs" I think you're entitled to your opinion. Regarding being an anti-Zionist having the status of bs, please copy and paste where I have said those words. 

I have anti-Zionist friends who's reasons for being anti-Zionist I deeply respect. There are real reasons to be an anti-Zionist that are real, and do not reflect a general hatred of Jews, but a love an concern for Jews. There are also anti-Zionist lies which originate out of a hatred of Jews. Naturally, since I am Jewish, and appreciate my fellow Jews, and love the Jewish community, I think those sorts of reasons to be anti-Zionist are dishonest propaganda designed to whip up anti-Jewish sentiments, and to distract people from the real problems facing this nation and the world.

*#6* 


> because there is no threat of muslims taking over our legal system.  that will never ever happen.  if muslims were to somehow attempt some sort of revolution our incredibly massive military would destroy them.  gun ownership is also at an all time high! we woldn't even need the army!
> 
> but a war with iran for israel is VERY likely and Israels presence in washington is a fact.  thus, people wisely see them as the bigger or actual threat


Several opinions. No questions here.

*#7* 


> I'd LOVE it if you respnded rudely to me. most of the time you don't respond to me AT ALL and when you do you use arguments you've ALREADY USED.  I don't care though. I don't care if you respond to me or not.  I'm not writing these responses for you I'm writing them for people who read this thread.


No questions here either. So, lester1/2jr, when you ask me a question, and if it is a question, and not merely your own opinions stated as if they are questions, as I said before, I might choose to answer them according to my own views on what the truth is, what the facts are. As for your opinions, these sorts of opinions are expressed by you and other members. I've responded to them, and I would like to avoid rehashing the same arguments over and over again. 

If I do choose to enter into an discussion or debate which has been covered already, chances are good I will continue to use the same arguments and set of facts I've used, because they are the truth. Funny thing about the truth. It has a certain inner consistency.

----------


## lester1/2jr

so respond to the opinons.  who are you barack hussein obama?  I don't have to form questions it's dialogue

look again, I don't care if you respond to me. I'm taking part in this thread.




> apparently you have no clue how the economy works, you should read some ron paul. those weapons are paid for with TAXPAYER dollars. it is a simply government expenditure and were they not spent those resources could go elsewhere.
> 
> and we get TERRORISM in return which is not a great investment I think everyone would agree


you don't know how to respond to that unless it's in the form of a personalized question?

okay

don't you think that it's false to say that aid to israel "helps our economy" when in fact our TAX PAYER dollars are paying for those weapons?

and don't you think "what we get" from israel is alot of hatred from muslims?  and is that really something one would normally PAY for?  isn't it more something we would pay NOT to have?

would you like a glass of champagne with that, your highness?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> so respond to the opinons.  who are you barack hussein obama?  I don't have to form questions it's dialogue


I only pointing out that it is not true I never respond to your questions.




> look again, I don't care if you respond to me. I'm taking part in this thread.


Fine. You don't care. But then don't make comments about how you'd be a happy man if only ElyaKatz would respond to your questions. 

As far as participating in this thread goes, that's your right as a member. But that doesn't obligate me to respond to your opinions. There are a lot of people on this thread, and I didn't start it. I'm just one of the participants.




> you don't know how to respond to that unless it's in the form of a personalized question?
> 
> okay


Sure I know how to respond to opinions. And I often do. But I'm not obligated to do so. I've already responded to many of your opinions as voiced by other members before. I'm not going to feel obligated to waste away my days responding to the same exact opinions and questions over and over again.




> don't you think that it's false to say that aid to israel "helps our economy" when in fact our TAX PAYER dollars are paying for those weapons?


No, I think it's true. While I don't agree with the concept of foreign aid, I think the financial aid given to Israel returns to Americans many times over, not only in the form of jobs, because our weapons industry is pretty much the only leg left in our economy with any vitality to it, thanks to our idiots in government over at least the last 35 years. We also benefit from Israeli intelligence and extremely cost effective weapons research. You can hate war, and all that comes with it. I certainly do. I dread it. But until the Messiah comes, war is a fact of life, and in the case of a defensive war, it is a duty. A nation poorly armed or behind the times in various weapons research is a nation asking to be conquered.




> and don't you think "what we get" from israel is alot of hatred from muslims?  and is that really something one would normally PAY for?  isn't it more something we would pay NOT to have?


The West, including America has earned the hatred of the fanatical Islamic world, which is funded largely by Saudi Arabia, simply because we are not Muslims and our nations do not operate according the Islamic law. 

I have wanted to respond to one opinion of yours that caught my eye awhile back. I haven't had the time until now, but it's an easy one for me to counter. It was something to the effect that Americans would never stand for Muslims taking over our country, that we'd fight them. I can find the quote if you want. 

I agree with you. If we decided to play cowboys and Mulsims right now, they wouldn't stand a snowballs chance in hell.  The only problem is, I believe the radicals among the Mulsim world are doing their work behind the scenes. I have read many books on people who have come out of Islam and on the threat to Islam. I particularly appreciate the book "Stealth Jihad" by Robert Spencer. 

Some people here really make fun of Doug Hagmann at Northeast Intelligence Network. He's a professional investigation. One of NIN's investigator's recently came out of a 6 month undercover investigation as a intern for CAIR, and discovered lies upon lies within CAIR organization, infiltrations into many government and private institutions in our country on all levels. According to information from this undercover investigation, CAIR members are not merely exercising their rights as Americans to participate in American institutions. They are doing so in order to make it easier for terrorists to infiltrate, and in order to make it easier for sharia to infiltrate. I'll find the audio link later and post it. 

There are already jurisdictions in Britain and Canada, to name only two countries, where sharia is seeking or has succeeded in imposing itself on the Muslims within that jurisdiction. It's just another small step from that to having those same court systems apply to non-Muslims who do business or in other ways interact with Muslims. And a few more steps before that same duel system might be imported into America. And on and on it goes...the frog is slowly boiled to death.

This is historically how Islam has conquered the regions that are now ruled by sharia. Settlement, population explosion in the Muslim community, then they begin insisting on their "rights", and then their "rights" become our obligations. In 1975, only one nation was ruled by sharia. Now we have several, such as Iran and the Sudan, with Muslim fundamentalist activists pushing for sharia in every Muslim nation. They truly believe that the world will not be at peace until every man, woman and child lives under sharia. Not everyone must become a Muslim according to such people, but they do believe that sharia is meant for the entire world.




> would you like a glass of champagne with that, your highness?


Only if it's kosher, thanks. Well, no. I really don't like champagne. A shot of Southern Comfort would do nicely about now.

You take care lester1/2jr.

----------


## lester1/2jr

> because our weapons industry is pretty much the only leg left in our economy with any vitality to it


again, israels weapons are paid for with US TAXPAYER Dollars. that's not a profit it's a loss.  they aren't buying our weapons.  our government is giving them the weapons.  




> We also benefit from Israeli intelligence


yeah lke the intelilgence that led to us invading iraq?   phony intelligence?  

how about the "intelligence" that joanthan pollard stole for them?  is that the kind you meant.  

israel is a libaility, not an asset.  we support them out of nothing but pity and it HURTS us






> The only problem is, I believe the radicals among the Mulsim world are doing their work behind the scenes.


no you don't.  you believe that muslims want to wipe israel off the map but you know they have no ability or motivating desire to to the same to America.

so you want america's help.  you do so by spreading propaganda aimed at really dumb people that YOUR problem is OUR problem.  it ain't.  you aren't going to fool people in to fighting your battles for you.  so forget about it!

----------


## ElyaKatz

> again, israels weapons are paid for with US TAXPAYER Dollars. that's not a profit it's a loss.  they aren't buying our weapons.  our government is giving them the weapons.  
> 
> yeah lke the intelilgence that led to us invading iraq?   phony intelligence?  
> 
> how about the "intelligence" that joanthan pollard stole for them?  is that the kind you meant.  
> 
> israel is a libaility, not an asset.  we support them out of nothing but pity and it HURTS us


First of all, I said I don't agree with the idea of foreign aid to any nation. We could debate from here until kingdom come as to whether or not that aid benefits the US or hurts it. Whether it benefits Israel or hurts it. I think it hurts both nations, so we basically agree on that. I don't think it hurts the US financially, and I don't think our support of Israel the primary grievance of the Muslim nations.

Second, the US government doesn't "help" Israel out of pity. A government doesn't operate like a person. A government operates purely out of self-interest. And a government out of control, like our Federal government is out of control, does so out of self-interest to them, not to the people they are sworn by oath to serve, the American people. 




> no you don't.  you believe that muslims want to wipe israel off the map but you know they have no ability or motivating desire to to the same to America.


Really? This is why I haven't responded to you in the past. These sorts of comments are stupid. Sorry. They just are. You can't tell someone what they think. I mean, you can, but it sounds like you're in junior high and you're arguing with your parents.

So, here's what I think: I'm not sure if Iran wants to wipe Israel off the map. I've debated that point before with someone else here. I do know for a fact that radical Muslims certainly do want to overtake the world with sharia, and they know that the Jewish people are their main opponents in doing this. The Quran, in parts, tells the "faithful" Muslim that he must destroy "the Jews". But the infidel (non-Muslim) isn't viewed much better. 




> so you want america's help.  you do so by spreading propaganda aimed at really dumb people that YOUR problem is OUR problem.  it ain't.  you aren't going to fool people in to fighting your battles for you.  so forget about it!


You are addressing me as if I am "Israel". I am just a Jew, who lives in America and is really worried about America's current direction. I don't think the US has been such a great ally of Israel. Not the government. Most Americans are sympathetic, but an honest look at US policy towards Israel since it's inception does not bear out the claim.

I don't think Israel needs America to protect her from the Muslim nations. I think Israel needs America to get off her back so she can take care of herself without being pressured to stop just short of her objectives.

I write what I write out of concern for America and Americans. I write what I write because there is a lot of anti-Zionist propaganda sprinkled throughout this site, and I think the people who support Dr. Paul are intelligent enough to look at all sides of the issue of the Middle East, Israel etc.

The US government supports Israel and her insane enemies at the same time because they don't give a hoot about the deaths of Israeli, Muslim or American soldiers. What they care about is money. Breaking things and then fixing them, and the weapons sales generated by decades of destabilization are immensely profitable. It keeps the people in the region weak and controllable.


*Is the US an ally of Israel? A chronological look at the evidence*

----------


## ElyaKatz

> If your looking for sympathy for Israel, I suggest you look in Yenim's pipik. !


I'm not looking for sympathy for Israel. I am pointing to "inaccuracies" in the anti-Zionist cause.

Re the "myth", do you think there was a Moorish Spain?

----------


## lester1/2jr

> I don't think it hurts the US financially, and I don't think our support of Israel the primary grievance of the Muslim nations.


then you are absolutely wrong because most obviously it is taxpayer money being given away and second and perhaps more importantly it feed the military industrial complex, which is the most crippling element of our crippling government!




> Second, the US government doesn't "help" Israel out of pity. A government doesn't operate like a person. A government operates purely out of self-interest. And a government out of control, like our Federal government is out of control, does so out of self-interest to them, not to the people they are sworn by oath to serve, the American people


wrong again.  israel is a liablity.  there is no logical reason for us to assist them the way we do.  we are guilted into doing so by Israels lobby in washington AGAINST the best interests of the american people




> but an honest look at US policy towards Israel since it's inception does not bear out the claim.


oh yeah the US doesn't do nearly enough for israel. lol

honest question: how many times have you reported me to the mods?

2. are you freaked out that I haven't been reprimanded for this debate? because in 99% of the forums on the internet  I would be.

----------


## Danke

> honest question: how many times have you reported me to the mods?
> 
> 2. are you freaked out that I haven't been reprimanded for this debate? because in 99% of the forums on the internet  I would be.


You have been reported?

----------


## lester1/2jr

not that i know of.  I'm not ACCUSING anyone of doing that. just a guess

----------


## ElyaKatz

> not that i know of.  I'm not ACCUSING anyone of doing that. just a guess


Not once. Are you worried about something you've said?

----------


## lester1/2jr

not at all

----------


## YumYum

> I'm not looking for sympathy for Israel. I am pointing to "inaccuracies" in the anti-Zionist cause.
> 
> Re the "myth", do you think there was a Moorish Spain?


As far as "myth" goes, I don't doubt for one minute that the Jews had possession of Israel 3,000 years ago and that the Babylonians took them into captivity and destroyed the Temple in 587 B.C.E. What I don't believe in (and neither do a number of Jews and non-Jews) are the miracle stories in both the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures. I think your argument becomes muddled when your main claim to the land of Israel is that G-d gave it to the Hebrews. This argument may work with some Christians, but neither agnostics nor atheists will buy it. One thing I think the Zionists are doing that will backfire on them is their alliance with Christian Zionists. These people are nuts. I live in the Bible Belt and I cannot have any meaningful discussions with them on any subject other than their demands that I convert to their belief system. You should not trust them. Try pahvolyeh! I believe that they (like other Christian zealots have done in the past) will one day turn on Jews. The Jews that are looking to them for support are playing a dangerous game. On the other hand, I have some very dear friends who are normal Christians.

I admire your courage and your ability to keep your cool on these threads. I dont believe that the majority of people on this forum who disagree with you are anti-Semitic. I think that they (myself included) are frustrated.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> As far as "myth" goes, I don't doubt for one minute that the Jews had possession of Israel 3,000 years ago and that the Babylonians took them into captivity and destroyed the Temple in 587 B.C.E. What I don't believe in (and neither do a number of Jews and non-Jews) are the miracle stories in both the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures. I think your argument becomes muddled when your main claim to the land of Israel is that G-d gave it to the Hebrews.


The claims I have put forth when having discussions on this topic at this forum are not only Biblical claims. They are historical and legal in nature. One can understand the right of a nation to reclaim their stolen, historical homeland. Study the Spanish reclamation of Spain from the Muslims. It took them 800 years all told, and they did so with blood and fire. Jews took 1200 years to do the same thing. The main difference between the two peoples is that the Jews tried to reclaim our historical homeland from the Muslims through peaceful settlement, only resorting to arms when forced to defend ourselves. We have been much, much more humane than the Spaniards.

I thought of another "myth" and wondered why you don't take exception to the Saudi's exclusive control over Mecca, and the Saudi refusal to allow Christian soldiers who go to Saudi Arabia to bring a Christian Bible, for their own personal use. Do you believe in the myths written in the Quran? Because those myths are the basis for the Saudi control over their territory, and their refusal to allow foreigners or non-Muslims on their soil to enjoy any human rights whatsoever.




> This argument may work with some Christians, but neither agnostics nor atheists will buy it.


Like I said....we have claims that are legitimate in all the recognized disciplines considered important. I'm exploring this site, re the claim that the Torah is Divine. I know atheists and agnostics that recognize the Jewish claim from purely an historical perspective. Dr. Gil-White is one historian that recognizes our claim from that perspective. For some, it's simply a matter of fairness. The Arab/Muslim world has plenty of land rich in natural resources (22 nations). So, the Jews, another indigenous people from the region, should also have their small claim.

*Divine Information*




> One thing I think the Zionists are doing that will backfire on them is their alliance with Christian Zionists. These people are nuts. I live in the Bible Belt and I cannot have any meaningful discussions with them on any subject other than their demands that I convert to their belief system. You should not trust them. Try pahvolyeh! I believe that they (like other Christian zealots have done in the past) will one day turn on Jews. The Jews that are looking to them for support are playing a dangerous game.


I believe either the Torah or the Talmud says as much. I can't remember off the top of my head exactly where. When the going gets rough, about 80% of the non-Jewish world who is on our team will turn on us. But, we will also have about 80% of the Jewish world do the same, if I remember correctly. During our original exodus from Egypt about 80% of the Jews stayed. That's just the way it is. It's sad, but it's true.

Despite future betrayals by anyone, I don't think it's right to deny people the chance to do the right thing, thus, if Christians want to help the current government of Israel, or if they feel a certain solidarity towards the Jews of Israel and they want to act on that solidarity, and if the Israeli government or the Jews of Israel want to work with Christians, I don't see the problem. Of course, there should be limits to those relationships, but it's not for me to decide on any of those issues. I'm just one little Jewess, trying to do a few mitzvot every day.




> On the other hand, I have some very dear friends who are normal Christians.


Me too. It's easy to tell the difference. The normal folks have a calmer demeanor, more intellectual, not as frenzied and dogmatic about everything.




> I admire your courage and your ability to keep your cool on these threads. I don’t believe that the majority of people on this forum who disagree with you are anti-Semitic. I think that they (myself included) are frustrated.


Well, thanks for that. I try to argue the issue, not the person. It's tempting to get a little snipey sometimes, but I keep thinking of my frum relatives, friends and my rabbis, and what they would say to me if I said something denigrating. It helps keep my temper in check. I'm not naturally the most even-tempered person.

Re whether someone is antisemitic or not, it's not my call. Only HKB'H knows the heart. Some people are just honestly misinformed.

----------


## revolutionisnow

> The claims I have put forth when having discussions on this topic at this forum are not only Biblical claims. They are historical and legal in nature. One can understand the right of a nation to reclaim their stolen, historical homeland. Study the Spanish reclamation of Spain from the Muslims. It took them 800 years all told, and they did so with blood and fire. Jews took 1200 years to do the same thing. The main difference between the two peoples is that the Jews tried to reclaim our historical homeland from the Muslims through peaceful settlement, only resorting to arms when forced to defend ourselves. We have been much, much more humane than the Spaniards.


YouTube - WHO WERE THE FIRST TERRORISTS IN THE MIDDLE EAST

----------


## ElyaKatz

BS"D

My friend, we could try to out article and out Youtube each other for the next 300 posts. I did not ever claim that the Arab people didn't suffer during Israel's War of Independence. War is hell, it is destruction and chaos.

What I am saying is, the war, which brought hell, destruction and chaos was not the Jewish people's "plan A". Of course, if a nation, or in this case five nations, are going to declare war on Israel, then the Jews of Israel will fight back. 

*The 1929 Arab Terror Attack: When Hebron Became Occupied Territory*

_“On hearing screams in a room I went up a sort of tunnel passage and saw an Arab in the act of cutting off a child’s head with a sword. He had already hit him and was having another cut, but on seeing me he tried to aim the stroke at me, but missed; he was practically on the muzzle of my rifle. I shot him low in the groin. Behind him was a Jewish woman smothered in blood with a man I recognized as a police constable named Issa Sherif from Jaffa in mufti. He was standing over the woman with a dagger in his hand. He saw me and bolted into a room close by and tried to shut me out-shouting in Arabic, ‘Your Honor, I am a policeman.’ I got into the room and shot him (Bernard Wasserstein, The British in Palestine: The Mandatory Government and the Arab-Jewish Conflict 1917-1929).”_

Another account by Anita Shapira's book, Land and Power, as quoted by Dr. Francisco Gil-White's article, *How did the 'Palestinian movement' emerge? The British sponsored it. Then the German Nazis, and the US.*

_“The [1929] riots were accompanied by militant Arab slogans such as ‘The law of Muhammad is being implemented by the sword,’ ‘Palestine is our land and the Jews our dogs,’ ‘We are well armed and shall slaughter you by the sword.’ There were also brutal acts by Arabs for the apparent sake of cruelty, such as the killings in Hebron, where small children were tortured by their murderers before being murdered. The dread that the Arabs were planning to annihilate the entire Jewish community -- men, women, and children -- in one concentrated burst of violence surfaced for the first time in the wake of the August 1929 disturbances [which]...swept with a fury through Jewish settlements and neighborhoods throughout the length and breadth of the country. The danger now appeared to threaten the very survival of the entire Jewish community.”_

YouTube - The Forgotten Refugees - The Only Authentic Version - Part 1
Yes. During the Israeli war of Independence, Jews finally had figured out how to defend themselves. I guess we'd had enough of feeling helpless during pogroms such as the Hebron massacre and worse. And during that war, Arabs died. So did Jews. Both soldiers and civilians. Some were not justified, on either side. There is not a war in the history of the world where a war crime doesn't happen. The question is this: Are war crimes a part of the policy of the given warring entity, or are they an abberation?

Azzam Pasha, Secretary General of the Arab League, in declaring war on Israel said: _“This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre, which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades._

I watched your linked video, and if any of those stories are true, it's terrible. I can more match them story for story on the Jewish side, however. The torture that captured Israeli soldiers underwent prior to being murdered by Arabs became so commonplace, that it was routine for the Jewish soldiers to blow themselves up with a hand grenade if they knew they would be captured. Torture was Arab policy. Annihilation was Arab policy. In fact, it still is:

*Fatah-Led PA Admits It Tortures Prisoners*

I also note that the video you linked is done with quite the whitewash of the British Mandate, the very one which brought Hajj Amin al-Husayni to power in Mandated Palestine, who allied himself with Hitler, and gave Hitler the idea of mass murder rather than mass-deportation of European Jewry. Thus, I can't dismiss the obvious bias. The Brits were helping with Hitler's program of mass-murder, even while they fought his efforts to conquer Europe.

It took hundreds, no, thousands of years of putting up with massacre after massacre, pogrom after pogram, not only in Europe, but also in the Middle East, among Arabs where Jews had lived, sometimes since the Bablylonian exile, before the Jewish community in the Yishuv and then in Israel, finally got smart and decided we too, needed to bear arms, and to fight, and if need be, to kill our enemies.

*Was There a Massacre at Deir Yassin?*

*The Road to Jenin*

*The Second Draft*

_"The opening dossiers come from the Arab-Israeli conflict where many of the problems and paradoxes that challenge modern journalism's fundamental assumptions and practices come into play. Thus we explore the general phenomenon of Pallywood (the Palestinian national film industry in which "militant" journalists and street actors produce staged news as propaganda..."_

----------


## ElyaKatz

Bs"d

----------


## rpfan2008

> Not once. Are you worried about something you've said?


He can't believe he's been allowed to inflict pain on  a victim with truth.

----------


## lester1/2jr

> Was There a Massacre at Deir Yassin?


just throw in a little holocaust denial while you're at it

----------


## ElyaKatz

> just throw in a little holocaust denial while you're at it


Didn't you try to make that comparison before? I'm glad you think being a Holocaust denier is wrong, but really lester, read the article. I doubt you have. There was and continues to be a huge propaganda effort to defame Jews by the Muslim/Arab world. Hajj Amin al-Husayni, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, installed by the Brits, and a friend of Hitler, started the Deir Yassin massacre rumor, and the Labor Zionist leaders went with it, because they hated the Revisionist Zionists. In fact, the Labor Zionists worked with the Nazis. The Labor Zionists wanted a binational state which was communist or socialist in nature, with little to no Jewish identity attached. They successfully excluded most of the religious Jews of Eastern Europe from immigration to "Palestine" because they were a) Orthodox and b) poor. They wanted the Germans Jews to be scared into running to what was then called Palestine, because they were a) totally assimilated and not religious and b) wealthy. They weren't going to let those German Jews keep their money eitiher. Only enough for minimal resettling costs.

There's a whole huge piece, in fact several, at the site on the whole Rudoph Kastner controversy. It sheds light on just how criminal the Labor Zionists were. They had abandoned the faith of their fathers, which is always the beginning of the end for a Jew.

*Historical and Investigative Research*. He covers the problems of Yugoslavia as well.

*The Oslo War Process* Subtitle: Norwegian diplomats are the 'advance guard' of the US-European empire. They helped destroy Yugoslavia. They set Israel on the path to destruction. Now they will finish destroying Sri Lanka. Next: India. And Spain.

Dr. Gil-White's articles are all backed up by extensive, credible footnotes. Print them out and read them. Deir Yassin was a high casualty battleground, not a deliberate massacre. You should know by now, just because the news reports are feeding us something doesn't make it true. 

Another site to consider exploring is *The 2nd Draft*. The Arabs/Muslims are masters at antisemitic propaganda. Israelis have not nearly caught up on PR skills. Brilliant minds, the Israelis, but terrible at PR.

----------


## lester1/2jr

> Deir Yassin massacre rumor


and you criticize conspiracy theorists. oh brother.   denying the deir yassin massacre and planning the next one

----------


## ElyaKatz

> and you criticize conspiracy theorists. oh brother.   denying the deir yassin massacre and planning the next one


Read the freakin' article lester. I used to believe it and I did so with deep dismay. I know that war can make people crazy, so I sadly, very sadly chalked it up to the craziness of war. But I started reading a lot of history books. It's propaganda.

----------


## lester1/2jr

let me guess,  you believe the kililng of rachael cori was a total accident.  and let me also gues that you think she deserved it.

----------


## fj45lvr

> let me guess,  you believe the kililng of rachael cori was a total accident.  and let me also gues that you think she deserved it.


How dare these mis-guided youth get in the way of Eretz Israel???  God struck her down.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> let me guess,  you believe the kililng of rachael cori was a total accident.  and let me also gues that you think she deserved it.


Nope. I think she was set up by the International Solidarity Movement. They love to get confused college kids in the middle of war zones and get them killed. Especially American kids. It's great PR for them. Rachel was a victim of the ISM, not Israel.


*Rachel Corrie - Peace Activist or Palestinian Tool?*

*ISM Lied to Rachel Corrie*

----------


## ElyaKatz

> How dare these mis-guided youth get in the way of Eretz Israel???  God struck her down.


*fj45lvr's sig:*




> “A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." --George Washington
> 
> "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."--Thomas Jefferson


You should consider reading your own signature once in awhile. I doubt Thomas Jefferson or George Washington would be backing Hamas, Fatah or Hezbollah over Israel if either of them were alive.

*Fatah-Led PA Admits It Tortures Prisoners* -- and those are the so-called "moderates".

----------


## lester1/2jr

> Nope. I think she was set up by the International Solidarity Movement. They love to get confused college kids in the middle of war zones and get them killed. Especially American kids. It's great PR for them. Rachel was a victim of the ISM, not Israel


oh yeah.  they shoved her in front of a bulldozer who was clearing out a place to make a kitchen to bake big brownies for palestinians.


yuors is simlpy a fancier holocaust denial

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Genug shoen! You argue that all of Palestine belongs to the Zionists because your G-d gave it to the Jews. So what? Were you there? Did you see it? Do you really believe the silly stories in the Old Testament? Your arguments are shmei drei.


How do you know the founding fathers of American wrote the constitution? Do you really believe all those silly myths?

----------


## lester1/2jr

here's the thing elya katz.  What you are doing is a waste of time.  the story as most people who have bothered to learn knows it is this:  the zionists came to palestine and drove out whoever was there to create Israel.  You aren't going to convince anyone this isn't what happened or paint some VERSION of that that is acceptable in a general sort of way.

WHat you shuld do is acknowledge that yes israel was created by driving the palestinians, however many there were, out but that it's different from the crusades because

1. jews more pronounced relgious ties to the land and 
2. anti semetism arond the world.

  When you use all this stuff, joan peters, MEMRI, it simply reminds people of the neocons, who we all hate and who got us into Iraq.  You may think you use the information for different purposes but it's like If i went to a partty dressed as a klansman and was like "this isn't a klansman it's some thing from the 1500's you don't know about"  people would be like yeah right.  I'm trying to help you here, believe it or not.

----------


## revolutionisnow

> 1. jews more pronounced relgious ties to the land and 
> 2. anti semetism arond the world.


Christians and Muslims both have religious ties to the land. And

----------


## Dunedain

> How do you know the founding fathers of American wrote the constitutiion? Do you really believe all those silly myths?


Why don't you go to some forums about Israel?  This is a forum about people that put the united states first.  Israeli supremacists are ruining the U.S.

----------


## YumYum

> How do you know the founding fathers of American wrote the constitutiion? Do you really believe all those silly myths?


No, actually it was written by Rothschild's agents. 

What do you think should be done with the Palestinians? Where would you put them? I would think we could get the U.S. to buy an area in the Sahara and develope it to look like Israel and put them there to live. Has anyone thought of this? I think the Palestians just want their own land; I don't think they would care where it is located. Anyways, I think we will have to relocate the Palestinians.

----------


## revolutionisnow

> No, actually it was written by Rothschild's agents. 
> 
> What do you think should be done with the Palestinians? Where would you put them? I would think we could get the U.S. to buy an area in the Sahara and develope it to look like Israel and put them there to live. Has anyone thought of this? I think the Palestians just want their own land; I don't think they would care where it is located. Anyways, I think we will have to relocate the Palestinians.


Why not give them some of the Jewish burrows in New York/NJ? Palestinians trade them their house and citizenship for their house and citizenship. And instead of the US taxpayers paying billions yearly to Israel, they could pay the new immigrant Palestinians billions to support them.

----------


## YumYum

> Why not give them some of the Jewish burrows in New York/NJ? Palestinians trade them their house and citizenship for their house and citizenship. And instead of the US taxpayers paying billions yearly to Israel, they could pay the new immigrant Palestinians billions to support them.


Jews in New York and NJ wouldn't go for it. How about a portion of Texas? Maybe an area in the California desert, or Nevada? We have plenty of room here in the U.S.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Christians and Muslims both have religious ties to the land. And


What was the cause before the advent of modern Zionism? The sign is idiocy.

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## ElyaKatz

> and you criticize conspiracy theorists. oh brother.   denying the deir yassin massacre and planning the next one


Slander and ignorance. You haven't read the link yet, have you?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Why don't you go to some forums about Israel?  This is a forum about people that put the united states first.  Israeli supremacists are ruining the U.S.


My purposes have been explained the the base post of my "Who are the Palis?" thread. I do participate in other threads, and have started several on the topic of heath care, education, foreign aid etc. I have interesting and controversial things to say there as well. Very little participation. 

Amazingly though, so many patriots love to hang out at the pro-Israel threads and spew anti-Zionist lies. What's that about? It's almost like there's a little club of anti-Zionists here trying to co-opt the forum or something. 

How about if you go to some pro-palestinian forum. I don't see how apologists for Islamic supremacy belong here.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> oh yeah.  they shoved her in front of a bulldozer who was clearing out a place to make a kitchen to bake big brownies for palestinians.
> 
> 
> yuors is simlpy a fancier holocaust denial


You wouldn't want to be confused with the facts, would you lester?

----------


## revolutionisnow

> Jews in New York and NJ wouldn't go for it. How about a portion of Texas? Maybe an area in the California desert, or Nevada? We have plenty of room here in the U.S.


Well I don't think the Palestinians are currently going for the deal either. Maybe the old Biblical eye for an eye reasoning can be applied here. For every innocent Palestinian's home destroyed, an innocent Jew living in New York gets kicked out of their house and the Palestinians take possession. Wonder how quick their tune would change?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Well I don't think the Palestinians are currently going for the deal either. Maybe the old Biblical eye for an eye reasoning can be applied here. For every innocent Palestinian's home destroyed, an innocent Jew living in New York gets kicked out of their house and the Palestinians take possession. Wonder how quick their tune would change?


The Biblical "eye for an eye" is a metaphor. When the leaders of Israel apply Jewish law, no one ever loses an eye when he puts out someone else's eye. The metaphor was meant to convey the meaning of "equivalent monetary value." It is the Torah's method of describing Tort law.

*The Oral Law*
_
"The Written Law, for example, demands an "eye for an eye" (Exodus 21:24). Did this imply that if one person accidentally blinded another, he should be blinded in return? That seems to be the Torah's wish. But the Oral Law explains that the verse must be understood as requiring monetary compensation: the value of an eye is what must be paid."_

Applying your reasoning to monetary value could mean a great deal of wealth for the Jews of Israel as well, since they were thrown out of their homes in Arab lands around the same time that Arabs were fleeing Israel,  at the behest of their arrogant leaders, who were sure they were going to drive all the Jews into the sea.

YouTube - The Forgotten Refugees - The Only Authentic Version - Part 1

----------


## ElyaKatz

> What you are doing is a waste of time.


It's my time to waste, isn't it lester1/jr.




> When you use all this stuff, joan peters, MEMRI, it simply reminds people of the neocons, who we all hate and who got us into Iraq.  You may think you use the information for different purposes but it's like If i went to a partty dressed as a klansman and was like "this isn't a klansman it's some thing from the 1500's you don't know about"  people would be like yeah right.  I'm trying to help you here, believe it or not.


So, what you're saying is, I can only use anti-Israel sites and sources in order to make my arguments stick with you, is that it? 

Joan Peters, who worked for Jimmy Carter at the time she began her research into the archives, original sources...was pro-Palestinian. When she did the research, she did an about-face on her views. I've read the reviews on "From Time Immemorial". There are problems with the book, yes. But her findings can't be dismissed out of hand because the book is not perfect. Unless of course, you're Norman Finkelstein. Norm can do and say pretty much whatever he wants.

Dr. Francisco Gil-White, a much more reliable researcher, as he is a trained historian, was pro-Palestinian until he began doing research on the origins of the PLO. After that, he began to change his views, and was fired for publishing his research. Ian Lustick (CFR) one of his superiors at the University where Gil-White worked, was behind his being fired. I just bought an old book by Lustick. I look forward to reading what the man has to say for himself. 

I dislike the political views of Shimon Peres -- most of the time. But I am in the middle of reading one of his books as well. Sometimes the old boy actually makes sense. Mostly when it comes to technology though. 

I read what my ideological opponents write. I own books written by people who I disagree with, because I want to know why they think the way they do. I want to know the truth, if who I naturally disagree with might actually have a point. I do not read only from the perspectives of those whose thinking is like mine, and according to my own inclinations. And believe me, I have had to make major changes in my thinking over the years as a result.

*Do you EVER do that, lester1/2jr?*

The case against the Arab leadership of Mandate Palestine is very clear cut. They were in the wrong, and people unnecessarily died because of them, both Arab and Jew. The British enabled them, because their interests were aligned with them...with the Arab leadership, not the ordinary Arab. They're a bunch of greedy, elitists snobs, and so were the Labor Zionists. Contrast the Labor Zionists with the Revisionist Zionists, who were for rescuing all Jews, regardless of beliefs or whether they had money, regardless of age or skills.

And this country is also being ruined by the same type of people, greedy, eugenicist, elitist snobs. They come from all ethnicities, all religions.

If you think the Jews, or the Zionists are the problem in this country, it's your own inclinations that assist you in that error. And those same inclinations will enslave you in the end, because your problem is much less obvious than "the evul Zionists". Do you really think the massive problems in this country would be so easy for you to pick out? Sorry, it's going to take deeper thinking than that.

On a lighter note, here's a link to a hysterically funny, and somewhat informative discussion on what the definition of a "neocon" is:

*Do you actually know the definition of neocon???*

The link fits my reply, because lester1/2jr, said my sources remind him of "neocons". I don't think that term has a universal meaning anymore. It did when first coined. It meant "Reagan Democrats". But it's devolved and now means, "you (or your sources in this case) remind me of people whose political views I detest".

----------


## lester1/2jr

> You wouldn't want to be confused with the facts, would you lester?


did the rothschilds put her on front of the bulldozer too?

look, you can huff and you can puff but you aren't gonig to convince anyone that the zionists didn't come in and kick out the palestinians to make Israel.

no matter how well oiled and factual your argument becomes it will never matter.  at all.  

if your defense of Israel hinges on making people believe that that storlyine is false you will be a failure.

again,  accept the common paradigm and defend THAT.  it is defendable.

no one cares about francisco gil white.

----------


## LibertyEagle

Ellie,

For a definition of "neocon", go read Irving Kristol's book.  Since it was he who was credited with the term to begin with.

You should also read Ron Paul's speech entitled, "Neo-conned".
http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/co...3/cr071003.htm

----------


## fj45lvr

> look, you can huff and you can puff but you aren't gonig to convince anyone that the zionists didn't come in and kick out the palestinians to make Israel.
> 
> no matter how well oiled and factual your argument becomes it will never matter.  at all.  
> 
> if your defense of Israel hinges on making people believe that that storlyine is false you will be a failure.


these zionists don't really care about the apologetics of how they came into Palestine with mass immigration and used miltary and terrorist tactics to cease their zionist state because MANY believe God gave it to them (Eretz Israel)..

Thankfully not all jewish people believe in this and they are speaking out....too bad the money and power right now is not behind them.

Long live *Mordechai Vanunu!!!!*

----------


## Dieseler

You guys seen the Chicken video? It's some pretty cruel $#@!.

----------


## revolutionisnow

YouTube - Israel's jihad: Rabbis with guns (Part 1)

Talk about Religious Extremists

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

----------


## ElyaKatz

> did the rothschilds put her on front of the bulldozer too?
> 
> look, you can huff and you can puff but you aren't gonig to convince anyone that the zionists didn't come in and kick out the palestinians to make Israel.
> 
> *no matter how well oiled and factual your argument becomes it will never matter.  at all. * 
> 
> if your defense of Israel hinges on making people believe that that storlyine is false you will be a failure.
> 
> again,  accept the common paradigm and defend THAT.  it is defendable.
> ...


Nope. You clearly don't want to be confused with the facts. You've just stated that no matter how factual my argument becomes it will not matter to you. _At all._ 

Okay then.

"Facts are stubborn things." John Adams. 

They don't require oiling. -- Ellie Katz

But those who do care will be interested in scholars who actually study the history. Dr. Gil-White approached the subject biased in your direction, and because he actually looked at history, he changed his mind. That's integrity.

My argument is based on history. I've posted links from many, many sources. Dr. Gil-White used an extensive bibliography of credible sources, which is one good reason for people who are interested in the truth to read his material.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Don't feed me this bull$#@! either when the[B] INTERNATIONAL COURT RULED AGAINST ISRAEL and have rendered a legal opinion dispelling all of the BS you are selling.
> 
> pdf of the opinion:  http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1677.pdf


As far as I can see from the language, this was an advisory ruling LFOD, not a binding judgment. 




> Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory
> 
> Advisory Opinion of the International Court of Justice, July 9th 2004



*International Court of Justice (ICJ) Ruling on the Israeli Security Barrier ("Wall") - July 9, 2004*

_"The ICJ ruling has not had adverse practical consequences, The US and other countries blocked an Arab sponsored move to bring the matter to the security council. However, the ruling turned European opinion against Israel, especially in Holland, where people resented the fact that Israel is flouting the opinion of the International Court at the Hague, and it has served as a focal point for anti-Israel propaganda. The Israel High Court has ruled that specific portions of the barrier had to be moved in order to spare Palestinian Arab residents inordinate suffering, but it also ruled that the barrier itself does not in principle violate international law. (see Text of Israeli High Court Ruling Regarding the Legality of the Security Fence)"_

*UNITED NATIONS VOTE PRESAGES STATE SPONSORED GLOBAL ANTI-SEMITISM* 

_"But that ICJ opinion is fundamentally flawed and no reliance can be placed on it.

The ICJ incredibly failed to consider a comprehensive body of international law that specifically establishes that Jews have every right to live in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and to protect themselves from the murderous attacks of their Arab neighbours.

The only obstacle now standing between the anticipated diplomatic onslaught at the UN based on this flawed opinion and the projected threat to Jews worldwide is Article 80 of the United Nations Charter, which binds all member States.

Article 80 was completely ignored by the United Nations in all the resolutions passed on the West Bank and East Jerusalem in the build up to the ICJ case. It was not mentioned by UN Secretary General Kofi Annan in the voluminous dossier of documents furnished by him to the ICJ. It was never discussed or considered in the 64 page judgement of the ICJ or the separate decisions issued by some of the judges.

Article 80 preserves the right of the Jewish people to live in the West Bank and East Jerusalem pursuant to rights first vested in them in international law in 1920 and codified in the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine in 1922.

Jews indeed had lived in the West Bank and East Jerusalem until 1948 when they were then driven out by invading Arab armies. Jews returned to live there again after those same Arab armies were defeated in the Six Day War in 1967.

United Nations records attest to the critical importance of Article 80.

On 8 May 1947, Rabbi Abba Silver representing the Jewish Agency addressed the First (Political) Committee of the United Nations and he had this to say about Article 80:

    "The Balfour Declaration, which was issued by His Majesty's Government as a "declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations", declares: "His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." The mandate, in its preamble, recognises "the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine" and "the grounds for reconstituting" - I call your attention to the word "reconstituting" -"their national home in that country".

    These international commitments of a quarter of a century ago, which flowed from the recognition of historic rights and present needs, and upon which so much has already been built in Palestine by the Jewish people, cannot now be erased. You cannot turn back the hands of the clock of history.

    Certainly, the United Nations, guided by the great principle proclaimed in its Charter, "to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained", can never sanction the violation of treaties and of international law.

    With this situation and similar situations in mind, a specific provision, you will recall, was written into the chapter of the Charter of the United Nations which deals with territories which might become trusteeship territories, and which is therefore especially applicable to territories now under mandate. This is Article 80 of the Charter..." 

In evidence given to the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine on 7 July 1947, David Ben Gurion as a representative of the Jewish Agency said of Article 80:

    "This is the special Article of the Charter which applies to Palestine. It was introduced only because of Palestine." 

There you have it in black and white - a specific article dealing with Palestine inserted in the United Nations Charter having a crucial bearing on the Court's opinion is not given the light of day by the UN or the ICJ. This could not possibly be due to ignorance or oversight. Answers need to be given to explain this scandalous behaviour.

For this reason the ICJ opinion should not be granted any further recognition or credibility and should be condemned for what it really is - a decision of a biased and politicised Court that deliberately failed to look at a critical area of law legitimizing Jewish rights to settle in the West Bank and East Jerusalem ."
_

*Should the International Court of Justice Give an Advisory Opinion on Israel's Separation Fence? 
*
_"The Nature of the Fence

The fence does not involve any annexation; it was established for security reasons. The land used was not confiscated but requisitioned for three years. Rent is being paid for the land."_ 

Re the legality of Jewish villages in Judea and Samaria (absurd it should even be questioned...)

*Diplomatic and Legal Aspects of the Settlement Issue*

_"Settlements are Not Illegal

1. The settlements are not located in "occupied territory." The last binding international legal instrument which divided the territory in the region of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza was the League of Nations Mandate, which explicitly recognized the right of Jewish settlement in all territory allocated to the Jewish national home in the context of the British Mandate. These rights under the British Mandate were preserved by the successor organization to the League of Nations, the United Nations, under Article 49 of the UN Charter.

2. The West Bank and Gaza are disputed, not occupied, with both Israel and the Palestinians exercising legitimate historical claims. There was no Palestinian sovereignty in the West Bank and Gaza Strip prior to 1967. Jews have a deep historic and emotional attachment to the land and, as their legal claims are at least equal to those of Palestinians, it is natural for Jews to build homes in communities in these areas, just as Palestinians build in theirs.

3.The territory of the West Bank and Gaza Strip was captured by Israel in a defensive war, which is a legal means to acquire territory under international law. In fact, Israel's seizing the land in 1967 was the only legal acquisition of the territory this century: the Jordanian occupation of the West Bank from 1947 to 1967, by contrast, had been the result of an offensive war in 1948 and was never recognized by the international community, including the Arab states, with the exception of Great Britain and Pakistan. 

The Settlements are Consistent with Resolution 242

Many observers incorrectly assume that UN Security Council Resolution 242 requires a full Israeli withdrawal from the land Israel captured in the 1967 Arab-Israeli War. Some may have a hidden agenda aimed at depriving Israel of any legal rights whatsoever in the disputed areas. In either case, they use this misinterpretation to conclude that settlement activity is unlawful because it perpetuates an "illegal" Israeli occupation.

The assumption and the conclusion are deeply flawed. Resolution 242 calls for only an undefined withdrawal from a portion of the land -- and only to the extent required by "secure and recognized boundaries." Israel has already withdrawn from the majority of the land it had captured, and nearly all of the areas in which it retains communities are essential to "secure and recognized boundaries." The specific location of Israeli settlements was determined by Israel's Ministry of Defense over the last 30 years, not by the settlers themselves, and they were set up in order to strengthen Israel's presence in those few areas from which it cannot, militarily, afford to withdraw.

Settlements are Consistent with the Geneva Conventions

In three recent emergency special sessions of the UN General Assembly, Israeli settlement was cited as a violation of the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention. These international humanitarian instruments, forged in the ashes of the Holocaust to prevent future genocidal brutality and oppression, were never invoked in 50 years until the case of condominium construction in Jerusalem during 1998. Was such construction -- any settlement construction -- a violation of the Geneva Convention?

No. The relevant clause, Article 49, prohibits the "occupying power" from transferring population into the "occupied territory." Aside from the fact that the territory is not occupied, but disputed, Morris Abrams, the U.S. Ambassador to the UN in Geneva, had pointed out that the clause refers to the forcible transfer of large populations. By contrast, the settlements involve the voluntary movement of civilians. The U.S. Department of State, accordingly, does not view Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention as applicable to settlement activity in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. For that reason, the official U.S. position has been over the years that settlements are legal, even though successive administrations have criticized them on political grounds. (Only the Carter administration for a short time held that settlements were illegal; this position was overturned by the Reagan administration.)

Settlement Growth Never Violated Oslo

Although certain Palestinian negotiators demanded a settlement freeze, the peace agreement ultimately reached by Israel and the Palestinians at Oslo, along with the Interim Agreement of 1995, allow settlement growth as well as the growth -- and creation -- of Palestinian communities in the disputed territories. The Palestinians acquired planning and zoning rights in Area A, while Israel retained the same rights in Area C where the settlements were located. Indeed, their legal status was to be addressed and decided only in the final status negotiations which, unfortunately, never took place. Until this point is reached, settlement growth remains within the legal scope of the Oslo Agreements.

At the October 5, 1995, session of the Knesset at which the Interim Agreement was ratified, the late Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin proclaimed that we "committed ourselves before the Knesset, not to uproot a single settlement in the framework of the interim agreement, and not to hinder building for natural growth" (Israel Foreign Ministry, http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00te0). On the basis of this understanding of Oslo II, the Knesset voted to approve the Agreement.  

Conclusion

One may legitimately support or challenge Israeli settlements in the disputed territories, but they are not illegal, and they have neither the size, the population, nor the placement to seriously impact upon the future status of the disputed territories and their Palestinian population centers.
*     *     *

Jeffrey S. Helmreich is the author of numerous articles on Israel for American newspapers and journals._

----------


## lester1/2jr

elya you are totally missing the point.  the paradigm has been set and you are not going to change peoples perceptions of what this conflict is.  no one is going to read your frankly very boring posts and think "wow, there never were any palestinians, it's all smoke and mirrors, israel's enemies are just crazy people who randomly don't like it".

israel kicked out the palestinians to create israel.  the problem the world is facing is what to do about that.  you haven't even gotten that far yet, you are still afraid to enter the arena of dialogue.

you are like someone who protests the need for rackets in tennis.  they have them, that's part of tennis, so learn to use it!

----------


## ElyaKatz

> elya you are totally missing the point.  the paradigm has been set and you are not going to change peoples perceptions of what this conflict is.


I've noticed a few members here have the chutzpah to try and speak for the rest of the members. Who elected you as representative? I must have missed that. 

There are still Americans who actually read, who haven't fried their brains on television and movies 4 hours a night. You can stick to your "paradigm" in spite of facts glaring you in the face as long as you want. You can't claim that most people are likewise disinterested in true history. 




> no one is going to read your frankly very boring posts and think "wow, there never were any palestinians, it's all smoke and mirrors, israel's enemies are just crazy people who randomly don't like it".


You can't even get your facts straight about what I wrote, and it's there for you to review, thus I wouldn't be surprised that you're bored. I never claimed there were not people called "palestinians". I did prove that the Arabs co-opted the term for their own political manipulations, and I did so in their own words. You probably missed that point.




> israel kicked out the palestinians to create israel.  the problem the world is facing is what to do about that.  you haven't even gotten that far yet, you are still afraid to enter the arena of dialogue.


History is obviously not one of your stronger points. The fact of the matter is, the Jews did not steal anyone's land. They had a right to take it all back, but have been careful not to settle on land which was titled to Arabs. But you probably missed the post proving that post too...

*Did the Zionist Jews take something away from the Arabs in British Mandate
'Palestine'?*

_“...whilst in public these [Arab] leaders stepped up their incendiary attacks on Zionism, denouncing any transfer of ancestral soil to the Jews as a betrayal, they secretly enriched themselves by means of the very operations which they so furiously attacked. The fanatical braggadocio was designed for the gallery. It made it possible to win the support of the masses. It also, no doubt, served other less avowable goals. Under nationalist pressure, the small Arab landowners no longer dared to sell their land openly to the Jews. During the 1936-39 Revolt Husseini’s guerillas actually executed ‘traitors,’ but ‘at the same time a close relative of the Mufti was doing a brisk trade in precisely such allegedly criminal deals, but with a notable difference, for this person used to force sales from Arab small-holders at niggardly prices and then resell to the Jews at the usual exorbitant rates...’ In other words, hyper-nationalist propaganda became a lucrative industry, indeed even an American-style racket, for the Arab gentry.”_ -- written by an anti-Zionist Jew, Nathan Weinstock in his book Zionism: False Messiah (pp.163-64) -- emphasis Ellie Katz

Try exploring real sources sometime lester1/2jr. 

Another couple of excellent sites which actually document their claims:

*The Emporer's New Clothes*

*Middle East Facts*

*The 2nd Draft*

And some brave souls --

*Arabs for Israel*

As far as the tennis racket analogy...did I complain that folks weren't reading my threads/posts??? I don't recall doing that. I only recall you claiming they are boring. Well, I guess you wouldn't be one to slog through any boring legal cases, or, the Constitution would you? Not enough _action??_ 

I'm not protesting anything. The entire discussion has been fascinating for me. I'll just keep coming back here to refute the lies some few persistent members keep trying to pass off as truth. Doesn't bother me. The truth is always much easier to defend than lies.

If you're bored lester1/2jr, no one is forcing you to return to the discussion....

----------


## lester1/2jr

I'm telling you,  you haven't even gotten to the field yet, you are still arguing about how to play the game.

you aren't gonig to convince major leage baseball to use turkey basters instead of bats.  you aren't going to convince the entire world that the conflict as we know it is actually something else.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I'm telling you,  you haven't even gotten to the field yet, you are still arguing about how to play the game.
> 
> you aren't gonig to convince major leage baseball to use turkey basters instead of bats.  you aren't going to convince the entire world that the conflict as we know it is actually something else.


Really. So, refuting claims with facts  is now arguing about how to play the game. Interesting take you have on discussions and debates.

Who said I'm trying to convince the entire world? If I don't convince one person here of the truth, I would still be happy about my time spent here. The nice thing about telling the truth is the refreshed, squeaky clean conscience. 

I have enough confidence in my fellow man to know there are plenty of people who read what is written here, that have decided not to believe everything that anti-Zionists try to sell. I don't expect anyone to "believe" me.  People are intelligent enough to know that this conflict is not as simple as Israel's detractor's would like to portray it. They are free to explore the links on this thread for themselves, or do their own searching. 

Books are good too. 

Folks don't need you or I to tell them how to think. But that was one of the more creative ad hominem fallacies I've read lately. Gotta give you credit for that...

----------


## ElyaKatz

> No, actually it was written by Rothschild's agents. 
> 
> What do you think should be done with the Palestinians? Where would you put them? I would think we could get the U.S. to buy an area in the Sahara and develope it to look like Israel and put them there to live. Has anyone thought of this? I think the Palestians just want their own land; I don't think they would care where it is located. Anyways, I think we will have to relocate the Palestinians.


And I'll bet either the Rothschild's or the Mossad was behind this, eh YumYum? 

*Gunman Wounds Two in Los Angeles Synagogue*

Or maybe the Jewish men did it to themselves and framed the gunmen in order to gain sympathy for Israel??  Sleep tight sweetheart, as you work so hard to make life ever more insecure and dangerous for you and yours, me and mine....

I think someday your twisted version of history might someday slap you upside the head. *Hard.*

*US Mosques & Islamic Centers serving as paramilitary training centers for jihad*

"29 October 2009: A 45 page federal complaint unsealed Wednesday (PDF copy here), the raid on a Detroit warehouse and Detroit area residences, the shootout between mosque leader Luqman Ameen ABDULLAH, a/k/a Christopher THOMAS and law enforcement officials should be sufficient verification of the validity of our previously published investigative and surveillance findings that Islamic terror training is taking place on America soil."

*The modern "Protocols of Zion"*

_"Genocides don’t just happen. The killers must think they kill in self defense. Which is to say that the victims of an extermination must first be perceived as a mortal danger. For this, a propaganda campaign will be necessary. The propaganda that got between 5 and 6 million Jews exterminated in WWII went by the name Protocols of The Learned Elders of Zion. This series documents that this propaganda is once again being energetically spread by the Western mass media, just as it was in the prelude to WWII.

The next Catastrophe looms..."_

Chas v'shalom YumYum. I sincerely hope Dr. Francisco is wrong about what he believes looms before you and I, for both our sakes, in spite of your foolishness in believing and disseminating these antisemitic conspiracy theories, such as the Mossad being behind the 1983 Marine barracks bombing. There is no evidence of any of that BS except in the minds of those who believe Jews are both parasitic incompetents and evil geniuses all at once. Nobody gives these sorts of rabid dogs on two legs more valid excuses for the delusional conspiracy theories against Jews than an ignorant turn-coat Jew who's willing to buy into their lies and help the spread it around...usually to distance themselves from the heavy price of being born Jewish...even if not recognized on a conscious level.

You may think you're very enlightened my friend. Far from it. You're spreading medieval filth about your own people. You're not the first Jew to try and protect yourself from the cost of being Jewish by siding with your enemies. The strategy rarely works, and even if it does, it works at the expense of one's soul. The Judenrat and Sondarcommandos ended up on the same trains in the end. Don't forget that. So, what will you have you gained? You have fun figuring all this out YumYum. I think your grandmothers, if you have Jewish grandmothers, are probably spinning in their graves when you type out your nonsense about Jewish shtoonks.

פראייר

----------


## YumYum

> And I'll bet either the Rothschild's or the Mossad was behind this, eh YumYum? 
> 
> *Gunman Wounds Two in Los Angeles Synagogue*
> 
> Or maybe the Jewish men did it to themselves and framed the gunmen in order to gain sympathy for Israel??  Sleep tight sweetheart, as you work so hard to make life ever more insecure and dangerous for you and yours, me and mine....
> 
> I think someday your twisted version of history might someday slap you upside the head. *Hard.*
> 
> *US Mosques & Islamic Centers serving as paramilitary training centers for jihad*
> ...


Excuse me Elya, but I think you are a little verblonget. I am not a traitor to my people, and I am not spreading "medieval filth". What I am doing is searching for truth in a world of lies. Millions of lies have been spread about us, but there is also the sad fact that there are true stories of evil deeds done by Jews that *you* seem to overlook. That bothers me, because Jews are accused of sticking together no matter what wrongs we commit. I say that is total BS to those who attack me, but you make it appear that this sick myth is true! So what do you want me to do,Elya? Just agree with you on everything you say? I have read your post and I have come to the conclusion that the Jew's claim to Israel cannot be easily refuted. The chames of this world will never change their views, but that is not the case with me. There has to be a resolve for the sake of human lives: Jews *and* Palestinians. So what do you want to be done? I would like to see this discussion on this forum become more of us working together and discussing solutions instead of finding fault with Israelis and Palestinians. I asked you: What do you think of relocating them? You never gave me a response except to tell me how I am vermisht. So what do you want?

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Excuse me Elya, but I think you are a little verblonget. I am not a traitor to my people, and I am not spreading "medieval filth".


My impression of you, YumYum, is that in the interest of "fairness" you seem to ascribe to nearly every conspiracy theory out there with regard to Jews, only this time, our enemies hide behind "Zionism" and "Israel".




> What I am doing is searching for truth in a world of lies.


Fair enough. I am doing the same thing.




> Millions of lies have been spread about us, but there is also the sad fact that there are true stories of evil deeds done by Jews


Have I not covered some of those evil deeds in my posts YumYum? I don't think I've painted the Labor Zionist leadership in a lovely light. You want to get discouraged about the evil deeds of some Jews? Read *Perfidy* by Ben Hecht sometime. 

We are not perfect, and we are held to a high standard. That is part of being a Jew. 

I have posted some of those terrible stories YumYum. I know you've read them, because you responded in sadness. It's been pretty enlightening for me too. I didn't know just how terrible the Labor Zionists were until I started exploring the works of Dr. Francisco Gi-White (a few months ago). All I knew was that from my earliest studies of the founding of the State of Israel, I was repulsed by Ben-Gurion and by the socialist doctrines of the founders of the modern State of Israel. At the same time, I knew that the average Jew had to finally have a safe haven. It certainly wasn't going to happen among the nations of the world, that's been amply proven. Wouldn't you agree?

The Torah says 80% of Jews will betray their fellow Jews. That means 80% of the Jews will abandon Torah, because the Torah says we need to treat each other like brothers. One doesn't abandon one's brothers. I am not advocating excusing criminals YumYum. I am talking about loyalty, even with a sinning Jew. Love the sinner, hate the sin, a quote from my rabbi when I ask certain questions on morality etc.

Remember, the Torah tells us there is a much more serious penalty for Jews who do evil against gentiles than against Jews. I don't hide from our weaknesses. If you spent time with truly frum Jews, you would hear self-criticism. But it is tempered with love. The Torah doesn't hide our faults. In fact, I believe we are one of the few nations of the world, along with Americans, who do not hide our faults in our written history. Most nations only write glowing accounts of themselves.

I simply believe there are people who paint "Zionism" with a very wide brush, not taking into account the true facts of history. And to just go along with such people, patting them on the back as if they speak the whole truth, is to go along with a very dangerous agenda. In your effort to bend over backwards to be fair, and admit we're not a perfect people, you seem to me to be very quick to side with your own people's avowed enemies...while they laugh up their sleeves at you, no doubt.




> that *you* seem to overlook.


You know better than that. As I have stated here and in other posts I have come down very hard on the leaders of the Labor Zionists. Basically, the British ruling class, the Arab ruling class and the Labor Zionist leadership were all in kahootz together against ordinary Jews and Arabs. I have actually read the links I post. I know whereof I speak.




> That bothers me, because Jews are accused of sticking together no matter what wrongs we commit. I say that is total BS to those who attack me, but you make it appear that this sick myth is true!


I don't worry about what the gentiles think of me or their misimpressions of my people. I worry about the truth.

I see you as running scared of the fact that maybe loyalty is a good thing too. Not blind loyalty. All peoples are loyal among themselves, or they should be. Americans are loyal to other Americans, in the face of outside persecution. We stuck together after Pearl Harbor, and after 9/11. That's a good quality. Members of churches are loyal to their fellow members. Why is it a bad thing for Jews to be loyal to each other? Because the non-Jewish world says we don't have a right to be loyal? How right is it to be disloyal? 

The gentiles don't determine who we are and what our values are. YumYum, you may not believe in the Torah, but it is the reason there is even a Jewish people, and it determines our values. The Torah is in your soul. It makes you who you are, because it make your parents and your grandparents and your great-grandparents who they were. At least 22 generations of Jews lived according to the values espoused in the Torah in spite of the most unimaginable, horrific persecutions from outsiders trying to force them to abandon their values. Those habits don't die easily. 

The gentile world, even those who understand and love us, doesn't determine who we are. The G-d of the Torah does.

There will be gentiles who understand us and there will be gentiles who are determined to hate us. There is nothing you or I can do about them. They make up their own minds, and don't be fooled...it is a primarily a spiritual matter. What we need to do is the right thing, and sometimes the right thing is to think the best of one another. At other times, it is to criticize one another. 

When you have a problem with a family member, or a good friend, who do you turn to first? The person who hates that family member or friend, or someone who you know will be fair and objective? That is the caution exercised by our people, learned over thousands of years. We have gone to non-Jews for help, and we have criticized each other to non-Jews..._when we knew they would be fair._ However, I am sorry to say, that has been rare in history, and the reasons for it are complicated. When some of us choose to ignore that wisdom, learned over a long history, it has always spelled disaster for many innocent Jews. Not a wise idea.

How we treat one another is how the gentiles will treat us. That does not mean allowing true criminals among us to get away with their crimes, for that is not only a sin according to the Torah, but it is doing our brethren a great disservice. But being fair also means not swallowing every blood libel that comes our way in the interest of "open-mindedness." Have you ever heard the expression "So open minded, your brains are going to fall out?" Well, there's a basis in truth for that funny little ditty. 

I don't see you as a critical thinker, but a Jew who is so afraid of appearing to fit a stereotype imposed on you by the enemies of your people, that you refuse to admit that maybe, just maybe, we have some just causes. You allow yourself to be defined by your people's detractors. Why? Could it be because you refuse to allow yourself to be defined by your Abba in Heaven? 

I have studied Jewish history and world history now for around 40 years. I'm not going to be specific. This is the internet. But a loooong time. It is my favorite subject, and one I am adept at. I'm no trained historian, but I absorb the material easily. In my studies I have found that overall, we actually do the right thing most of the time. The Jewish people are a good people. We are an ethical people. So much so, that we feel guilty when we defend ourselves. And the more serious about fidelity to Torah values a Jew is, the better he or she is. It's just a fact. By that I am not referring to _only_ whether a person davens or how often they lay tefillin...I mean the whole package.... And it is a big package, a very high calling.




> So what do you want me to do,Elya? Just agree with you on everything you say?


Fat chance among two Jews YumYum. Of course not.  I am taking you on, primarily because you are a Jew. We must hold each other accountable. I go light on the non-Jews. But Jews should know better. We have high standards, and we maintain them because we hold each other's feet to the fire. We're supposed to do that my friend. Just like patriotic Americans...we hold each other to the standards of the Constitution, out of love of country. Americans and Jews are very similar. I think that's why there is an affinity between Israel and America. Have you ever read Dennis Prager's book *Why the Jews?* Good read. He makes that point.




> I have read your post and I have come to the conclusion that the Jew's claim to Israel cannot be easily refuted.


Well thank you for that. I take it as a compliment, coming from a tough opponent...ultimately on the same team, of course. That's the team of "right over might" YumYum...don't misunderstand. Jews are the world's first progressives, the first advocates for the rights of the average man...which is why the elites of the world have hated us for so long, why they lie about us and seek to turn the average joe, the "everyman" if you will, against us. That's our history. Not perfectly and in every age, among every community, but overall.




> The chames of this world will never change their views, but that is not the case with me. There has to be a resolve for the sake of human lives: Jews *and* Palestinians.


*Agreed.* And if you had ever lived in Israel, you would know, the Israelis probably care more about the future of the Arabs in the disputed territories than any other people in the world, including their "fellow Arabs". At the same time, we are not going to give up our right to our land or to self-defense so the world will like us better. That only leads to the death of our children. That's not a moral choice.




> So what do you want to be done? I would like to see this discussion on this forum become more of us working together and discussing solutions instead of finding fault with Israelis and Palestinians.


I would prefer the Israeli bashing and the Arab bashing end as well. In fact, I believe I'm on a campaign for reasonable discourse on the topic at this site. Ya think? I do point out that it is the Arab leadership that is the big problem. Leadership, or the lack therof, is usually the problem.




> I asked you: What do you think of relocating them? You never gave me a response except to tell me how I am vermisht. So what do you want?


I don't see relocation as feasible. It's been done before in the world, but it seems that the time has passed for that. Besides, there might be a good reason HKB"H hasn't allowed it. *I have written of this before -- to you my friend.* I can find the post for you if you'd like. I honestly think there is a good chance a majority of the Arabs of the region actually come from Jewish ancestry...that they are Crypto-Jews. The theory is that they were forced to convert to Islam by the Turks hundreds of years ago. There was an edict that went out in the Ottoman Empire, to convert to Islam or leave the Empire. Most Christians left. The Jewish peasant made a hard choice. He chose the land over his religion. But many maintained their Jewish customs in private, exactly like Crypto-Jews of the Spanish Inquisition. There are good people in Israel working on this problem, including some respected rabbis who have compassion on these people. 

Some will want to convert back to Judaim, and rejoin their people. Not all. Either way, these people, if they are freed from the despotism of the PA and Hamas, will probably be more than willing to live in peace with the rest of Israel. How do I know that? Because there is a man who makes it his business to go among these people and talk to them, heart to heart. He spends hours and days with them. He keeps their secrets for them until they are willing to go public. I can get his name for you too if you'd like. He is really making the news in Israel these days. He says that most of the families who know they are from Jewish ancestry teach their children to live in peace with "the Jews"....terms are getting muddled. 

Eretz Israel can be one land for both peoples, as long as they are willing to live peacefully with the Jewish people. But the PA and Hamas frighten their Arab constituency, and especially these Crypto-Jews. When they come out and say they are from Jewish ancestry, they are often tortured and murdered.

I lived in Israel for years before Yasir Arafat was brought out of "retirement" by the Europeans and the US (I am careful not to say Americans, because there is a big difference between our corrupt federal government and Americans). And I witnessed the horrific changes for everyone, Jew and Arab, after his arrival. His corruption and cruelty really knew no bounds.

I am telling you, prior to Oslo, there was a defacto peace in place and it was strengthening. But then, in 1992, things started to change, and it made me very uneasy. I had no clue what was afoot. I just suspected the interference of outsiders, and wondered if they really had the noble intentions they claimed. Just a little nagging worry, you know?? Yet, I am an optimist by nature, and so I did hope my worries were unfounded. Late into the night, I would be listening to the radio and ironing. I heard with my own ears, on the radio, as the local Arab population begged the government of Israel and the other powers involved to please allow them to elect their own representatives from within the territories, and to please not bring foreign Arab leaders in. I will not go into details, but suffice it to say, Shamir's arm was twisted into attending the Madrid conference, the forerunner to the Oslo accords. The survival of Israel was threatened if he didn't participate, in no uncertain terms.

So, Yasir Arafat was brought to Israel from the beaches of Tunisia, against the will of the local Arab leaders. And what a tragedy. I'll bet most of the Arabs who raised objections to Arafat did not die natural deaths. It's heartbreaking when I think of it. The stories that were told of how ruthless Arafat was with the people when he first arrived would make you go white with horror. I was there YumYum. Under the guise of the "peace process" I saw an existing peace dissolve before my eyes. In all these years, the rule of the PA under Arafat and now Abbas has succeeded in either silencing or _culling_ the people, who they really do view as a herd. As a result, there is now no meaningful opposition to the rule of the despotic PA leaders, and especially none to counter the agenda of Hamas. Now the plan is to drive the remaining Arabs into a war against the Jews of Israel, and any Arabs or other people in the region who won't go along with their war. If anything is true about the Arab/Muslim leadership driving this war against the Jews, and against the West...is that they have patience. If it take another 100 years, they will keeping plugging away, wearing us all down...death by a thousand tiny cuts. Americans do not have patience, and we don't have a strong sense of or value of history.

This plan, started way back in 1964 with the swallowing of Fatah into the PLO, and then in 1967, is called "phased plan". And the impatient, immature, naive West is financing the whole thing.

If the Jews of Israel and the local Arabs were left to themselves, they would have worked things out decades ago. If you ever visited Judea and Samaria, you would see, propaganda notwithstanding, it is largely unsettled. There is easily room for both people, and for growth. But there won't be peace as long as Western ruling leaders, the "elite" are running the show. It's too profitable for them and they don't give a rat's patootie for the war weary people of the region...by that I don't mean only Israel, I mean the entire Middle East. These people mean nothing to the West. They also don't give a damn how many of our boys in America are killed in the process. It's all a charade.

The answer? Good government. There are no shortcuts here. That's how Dr. Ron Paul caught my attention. I knew, from my studies of American history, our Constitution, and our legal system that we had strayed very far from what our founding fathers had intended. Dr. Paul wanted us to return to our roots. There's the answer for Americans. The Torah is the answer for Israelis. If the story about Crypto-Jews among the Arabs in Eretz Israel is true, it's the answer for them as well, whether or not they convert. There is room for the non-Jew in the Land. There are provisions in the Torah.

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

----------


## ElyaKatz

BS"D




> Originally Posted by *ElyaKatz* 
> You know better than that. As I have stated here and in other posts I have come down very hard on the leaders of the Labor Zionists.





> Typical propaganda of redefining words.  Nothing new.  If a particular word is not working well for you and you can't separate from it.... redefine it.  Divide and conquer.


LFOD, you reveal your ignorance of of the subject by not understanding the *huge* differences between Labor and Revisionist Zionism. Then there's the early religious Zionists, as represented by the Mizrachis. And what does the principle of divide and conquer have to do with it??




> The first sentence is obviously true.





> Originally Posted by *ElyaKatz*
> I don't worry about what the gentiles think of me or their misimpressions of my people. I worry about the truth.


There are going to be gentiles who will understand Jews, and then those who refuse and who are determined to hate us no matter what. I'm not going to waste my life on those who are determined to hate.




> The second sentence is just a bold lie. Let's go back a few posts...


Having a bias not mean someone is being dishonest. In fact, if one side in a dispute is clearly in the wrong, and one refuses to be biased towards the side of right, that is dishonest. Unless you're sold on moral relativism. 

I don't see you adding anything to the discussion between YumYum and myself. Oh, that handle makes me hungry. Bye.

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## ElyaKatz

> Ellie,
> 
> For a definition of "neocon", go read Irving Kristol's book.  Since it was he who was credited with the term to begin with.
> 
> You should also read Ron Paul's speech entitled, "Neo-conned".
> http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/co...3/cr071003.htm


The original definition, as far as I've read is a "Reagan Democrat" as I stated earlier. In my opinion, it's lost all meaning. It means, "I don't like what you believe politically."

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## ElyaKatz

> Talk about Religious Extremists


You're just the anti-Zionist energy bunny aren't you RIN? I would have thought your insistence on the existence of a "kosher tax" to embarrass you. But no. Okay. Can you honestly not find one item of processed food without a kosher hecksher? Where do you live, across from Chabad on 770? Are all the store owners in your neighborhood religious Jews?? Because I have a hard time finding a few of my favorite products with a hecksher, and I often have to pick brands of other items I would not choose if I had my druthers.

The video you posted on the Hardal Chareidi soldiers, post #259 of this thread, was produced by British "journalists", to use the term loosely. Let's put that video into the larger context of British culture as described by other British investigative journalists who don't like the trends they're seeing.

LiveLeak.com - Antisemitism War on Jews/Israel in Britain- Part 5 of 6

*This is religious extremism...*

LiveLeak.com - Blaming Israel- Radical Islam part 1 of 4
And Israeli perspective on the Hardal at the *Jpost Online* by Calev Ben-David.

Just because an IDF unit caters to the Hareidi soldier does not make it a nest of religious extremism. The reason for these units is because the Hareidim observe a higher level of halachah (religious law) which isn't typically observed within mainstream IDF units. Their level of kashrus is much higher, according to Torah, women are not supposed to serve in the military. These men do not want to be watching female soldiers doing calisthenics. Thus, there are no women in their units. About 80% of all women in the IDF serve as instructors. They typically spend more time in prayer, and so these units accommodate those needs. This is a much better alternative to the Hareidiim ducking out of military duty, which they were forced to do before the units were organized, because these men could not ignore their religious obligations. You can disagree with the Hareidi lifestyle. That's you're prerogative. However, what I see is the fact that Israel is respecting their soldiers freedom of worship. 

An balanced, mature person takes this all this information together, rather than just pulling out one video to prove his point...to push his "agenda". If Israelis commit war crimes, then they should be prosecuted like anyone else. Having said that, you can't argue that being a determined soldier, one who fights to win, is not a war crime. Do you think our Marines are trained to be pussycats? _Get real._

What brought about the long overdue Operation Cast Lead anyway?? Answer: 10,000 rockets landing on the heads of Israelis in southern Israel from 2001-2008, and countless warnings to Hamas to quit...mostly ignored.

*Facts & Stats on Sderot* from Sderot Media Center

_"Missile fire against Sderot and the western Negev began in January 2001. For the past 8 years, over 10,000 rockets have been launched towards Sderot and the western Negev. The Qassam rockets have claimed the lives of 25 Israelis; 9 of which were residents of Sderot, and 3 of whom were children under the age of five. Rocket attacks have injured over 700 Israeli citizens and have psychologically traumatized thousands of Israeli civilians. The rockets have damaged countless homes and properties in Sderot and the western Negev."_

These are civilians that are not doing anything to the people of Gaza. They just live near them, within rocket range. How many would you tolerate RIN? Well, after countless warnings to Hamas that they must stop their relentless attacks, Israel finally retaliated. And you know what, Hamas claimed a victory, because they weren't all turned into dust. Amazing.

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## Dojo

!0,000 Rockets..? And only 25 hits..? Why does this sound exaggerated?

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## ElyaKatz

> !0,000 Rockets..? And only 25 hits..? Why does this sound exaggerated?


That's 25 deaths. Over 400 injuries. 

They have the rockets to prove it pal, complete with all documentation as to date and where they landed. And the empty, damaged homes, as well as the video footage. Israel invest in bomb shelters and warning systems. Hamas doesn't. They want high civilian casualties...great PR.

If you're curious, rather than someone who just wants to convince yourself that Israelis are liars, then go ahead and read:

*Blog - Visitors to Sderot*

excerpt:

_"The focus on the relatively low number of Israeli casualties disguises the tremendous damage the rocket attacks caused, both to Palestinians and Israelis. The Palestinians need to direct their anger at Hamas’ aggression, which has resulted in unnecessary and regrettable suffering for them, and recognize that the terrorist organization is not the “liberation” force destined to save them. On the Israeli side, the psychological and economic damage is hard to comprehend.

The financially strapped residents of Sderot, members of the lower and middle classes, are forced to spend thousands of dollars on bomb shelters rather than on the food, health care, and education that they and their children deserve. Most people cannot move because housing prices have fallen so far below what they bought them for, but at the same time, the shelters for homes and schools cost equal to or greater than the buildings’ original construction."_

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## Dojo

> That's 25 deaths. Over 400 injuries. 
> 
> They have the rockets to prove it pal, complete with all documentation as to date and where they landed. And the empty, damaged homes, as well as the video footage. Israel invest in bomb shelters and warning systems. Hamas doesn't. They want high civilian casualties...great PR.
> 
> If you're curious, rather than someone who just wants to convince yourself that Israelis are liars, then go ahead and read:
> 
> *Blog - Visitors to Sderot*
> 
> excerpt:
> ...


  Okay "Pal" , do you have proof of WHO fired them? Who ever it is has a bad aim, still 9750 misses

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## revolutionisnow

Actors & CGI
YouTube - Fake Pro-Israel Propaganda On U S Television Uses Fake Explosions

Can we get a refund on this expensive equipment if it doesn't work?
YouTube - HAMAS ROCKET HOAX !!! MOSSAD FIRING FAKE ROCKETS TALON SYSTEM !!! FALSE FLAG !!! 2


Wearing Star of David jewelry sure is odd for a Muslim extremist. You also have to ask yourself where they got the weapon, and where they find bullets for them also? An AK-47 would be the expected weapon.

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## ElyaKatz

> Okay "Pal" , do you have proof of WHO fired them? Who ever it is has a bad aim, still 9750 misses


Not misses. 25 deaths, over 400 injuries and a LOT of property damage. There are bomb shelters people run to. Up to 25% of Sderot homes are now unoccupied. There are fields where they land. Figure it out yourself. Judging by your tone, I doubt you're interested.

I've taken it on as my personal responsibility to spoon feed too many non-inquisitive questioners already. 

*Hamas marks 8th Qassam anniversary as Sderot remembers first rocket victim*

It's called low-intensity conflict and it's meant to harass the population. It's working.

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## ElyaKatz

> http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/1897/812you8ts1.jpg
> 
> Wearing Star of David jewelry sure is odd for a Muslim extremist.


You messed up on your jpg. I can't find the image, even when I enter the url in the address bar manually. What's up RIN?

I found this link: *The Star of David in Islam*

_"Professor Gershom Sholem theorizes that the "Star of David" originates in the writings of Aristotle, who used triangles in different positions to indicate the different basic elements. The superposed triangles thus represented combinations of those elements. From Aristotle's writings those symbols made their ways into early, pre-Muslim Arab literature. The Arabs and Muslims were interested in arithmetics, and were also strongly drawn to biblical and Islamic tales. In fact, one of the most important persons in early Arab and Islamic literature was King Solomon (Arabic, ''Suliman'' or ''Sulayman''). The Babylonian Talmud contains a legend about King Solomon being kidnapped by Ashmedai, the king of demons. He succeeded in kidnapping the king by stealing his "seal of Solomon", although according to the Talmud this seal was simply a metal coin with Hebrew letters meaning the name of God, inscribed on it. It is possible that the seal was altered in the Arab tales. The first appearance of the symbol in Jewish scriptures was in oriental Kabbalistic writings, so it is possible that it was an alteration of the pentagram under Arab influence."_

Maybe not so odd?? I'd have to see the photo in order to know what you're getting at.




> You also have to ask yourself where they got the weapon, and where they find bullets for them also? An AK-47 would be the expected weapon.


My guess is, smuggling from Iran. That's what all those tunnels are for. Saudi Arabia probably pitches in as well, perhaps other Muslim nations. Hamas is a proxy of Iran, as well as Hezbollah. Most Iranians are aware of this fact. It ticks them off. They don't like paying for proxy wars. The average Iranian has nothing against Israel or Jews. It's the government's obsession.

As far as your videos, neither one of them proves a fake Qassam crisis in Sderot. I'm asking questions to some folks on the sources of the videos and will get back to you on that if I learn anything. But they don't make your case of fake Qassams or Mossad involvement in the Sderot crisis.

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## Dojo

> Not misses. 25 deaths, over 400 injuries and a LOT of property damage. There are bomb shelters people run to. Up to 25% of Sderot homes are now unoccupied. There are fields where they land. Figure it out yourself. Judging by your tone, I doubt you're interested.
> 
> I've taken it on as my personal responsibility to spoon feed too many non-inquisitive questioners already. 
> 
> *Hamas marks 8th Qassam anniversary as Sderot remembers first rocket victim*
> 
> It's called low-intensity conflict and it's meant to harass the population. It's working.


        Really?  Pardon the _tone_ ElyaKatz ............ Don't get me wrong, I'm *totally* against harassment and property damage I even think those little boys should stop throwing rocks, so There, you have my support in that.

SO what is your solution? More importantly, what more do you want from America, more American money, more American arms, more American military support?....................... seems to me what you don't want is any *criticism*, or anyone to question  what the hell is going on over there.

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## revolutionisnow

Maybe your office/classroom/wherever blocks imageshack? Here it is rehosted though

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## ElyaKatz

BS"D

Who knows RIN, maybe someday you'll get your wish and the Arabs in Gaza will be able to move to America and become your neighbors. After all, President Obama did allocate 20 million dollars for their resettlement, possibly in America. I think the civilians need to get out of the Gaza strip too. They need to get out from under  the boot of the Hamas leaders and try to start normal lives. A lot of them are very nice people, who just want to raise their families and live in peace. 

Or you could consider LFOD's plan. Claim your "rightful" heritage in the Holy Land and move to Israel. Then you can have the same fun with the Muslim extremists that the Jews are having. Welcome home. 

LiveLeak.com - Holy Land: Christians In Peril
LiveLeak.com - The Story of the Qassam Rocket

LiveLeak.com - Hamas Resistance Recruiting Video (2)

*Molotov cocktail hits Christian mayor's car by Aaron Klein*

*A few excerpts:*

"JERUSALEM – A Molotov cocktail and gunshots targeted the car of Bethlehem's Christian mayor yesterday, as local leaders there quietly fingered Islamists for attempting to intimidate Christians in one of the most important cities for Christianity.

"There are many cases where Christians have their land stolen by the [Muslim] mafia," Samir Qumsiyeh, a Bethlehem Christian leader and owner of the Beit Sahour-based private Al-Mahd (Nativity) TV station, told WND.

"It is a regular phenomenon in Bethlehem," Qumsiyeh said. "They go to a poor Christian person with a forged power of attorney document, then they say we have papers proving you're living on our land. If you confront them, many times the Christian is beaten. You can't do anything about it. The Christian loses and he runs away." 

"Bethlehem's population was more than 80 percent Christian when Israel was founded in 1948, but the Christians have declined to about 23 percent with a large majority of Muslims. The 23 percent Christian statistic is considered generous, since it includes the satellite towns of Beit Sahour and Beit Jala. Some estimates place Bethlehem's actual Christian population as low as 12 percent, with hundreds of Christians emigrating per year.

"Israel controlled Bethlehem until 1995, when it signed the territory over to the PA as part of the 1993 Oslo Accords. Reports of Christian intimidation by Muslims immediately began to surface after the PA gained control."

*All these troubles. Probably all Mossad agents, eh RIN?*

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## ElyaKatz

> Maybe your office/classroom/wherever blocks imageshack? Here it is rehosted though


I do have a internet blocker for the kids. Maybe that's the problem. The url isn't even showing up on your post on my computer though.

Tried again. Still blocked. I'll have to lower my internet block settings and see if that works. Later. I'll be back sometime after Shabbos.

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## ElyaKatz

> Really?  Pardon the _tone_ ElyaKatz ............ Don't get me wrong, I'm *totally* against harassment and property damage I even think those little boys should stop throwing rocks, so There, you have my support in that.
> 
> SO what is your solution? More importantly, what more do you want from America, more American money, more American arms, more American military support?....................... seems to me what you don't want is any *criticism*, or anyone to question  what the hell is going on over there.


Sheesh. I'm not going over my entire point of view AGAIN to another member who decides to join a thread at the end, without reading it through. I've explained my position so many times, it's getting positively funny.

If you read my opening post at the *Who is Palestinian? Where is Palestine?? Who Named Palestine???* thread I started, you'll see where I'm coming from. I'm with Ron Paul on the issue of foreign aid, and pretty much all issues domestic. I'm not totally on the same page as far a foreign policy. I think he's a bit naive, but I do recognize what our Constitution says re foreign alliances. 

I also answered a list of questions somewhere, that Cowlesy the moderator posed to me. If you can't find it, maybe I can locate it next week.

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## ElyaKatz

> I do admit I have not but casually glanced at this thread, but I hope you are not suggesting that there is some "underground" muslim movement scattered across the US in some sort of networking/terrorists cells waiting to do harm!
> 
> I"d like you supply me with a map that shows all the jewish "networking" and that map would be overflowing with thousands.... When the U.S starts waging war all over the world on behalf of the muslims, then I'll start to worry. Right now, muslims aren't on my Radar as "those out to get us". 
> 
> If we investigate all those at the FED, military industrial complex, major corporations etc.. we won't find muslims. Will we?


Following are a few links which provide evidence of Muslim influence over US institutions...from government, to financial institutions, to educational institutions, and into the legal system, via what has been termed "lawfare"...using our legal system to shut down critics with harassment lawsuits.

If you google search terms such as "Saudi influence US institutions"...you will find the following, and more for yourself. I've copied and pasted a few of the more salient paragraphs, but I encourage anyone who wants to understand how truly dangerous foreign interfering with American policies, you would be wise to consider reading the entire articles I've linked.

*US Colleges Teach Anti-Israel, Pro-Iran Courses Thanks to Alavi*

_"An Iranian front organization is donating huge sums to American academic institutions who employ pro-Iran, anti-Israel professors and speakers, according to back-to-back reports by the New York Post and New York Times.

"Hundreds of thousands of dollars have been donated to the prestigious Columbia University and Rutgers University for Middle East and Persian studies programs, according to the papers. The courses are taught by professors who openly slur Israel and express sympathy for Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's regime, as well as terrorist groups Hizbullah and Hamas."_

*John MacArthur: The vast power of the Saudi lobby*

_"Somehow, though, I can't shake the idea that the Israel lobby, no matter how powerful, isn't all it is cracked up to be, particularly where it concerns the Bush administrations past and present. Indeed, when I think of pernicious foreign lobbies with disproportionate sway over American politics, I can't see past Saudi Arabia and its royal house, led by King Abdullah.

"The long and corrupt history of American-Saudi relations centers around the kingdom's vast reserves of easily extractable oil, of course. Ever since President Franklin D. Roosevelt met aboard ship in 1945 with King Ibn Saud, the special relationship with the desert kingdom has only grown stronger."_

*Patton Boggs*

_"In November 2002, 'the House Committee on Government Reform, which is investigating reports of American children kidnapped and held in Saudi Arabia, has issued subpoenas to the Kingdom's top lobbying firms Qorvis Communications, Patton Boggs and the Gallagher Group demanding they turn over their PR and lobbying records,' reported O'Dwyer's PR Daily. 'The Saudi Embassy claims those documents are protected under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations as 'archives and documents of the mission.' Committee head Rep. Dan Burton (R-Ind.) rejected that argument, noting that the Vienna Convention is 'intended to protect foreign diplomats but has no application to American citizens' who choose to sell their services as public relations/lobbying mouthpieces for foreign interests'."[5]_

*Here's a chummy little piece written by the Saudi-US Relations Information Service.*

*The Prince*

"During the first weeks of the second Bush Administration, the Saudi Arabian Ambassador to the United States, Prince Bandar bin Sultan, met with the new President. Bandar, who is fifty-three and has been the Saudi Ambassador for twenty years, was accustomed to an unusually personal relationship with the White House; he was so close to the President's father, George H. W. Bush, that he was considered almost a member of the family.

"A few months after September 11th, Bandar went to Aspen, where he has a thirty-two-room mansion."

*SUSRIS - A Conversation with Chas W. Freeman, Jr.*

_"Thanks to the generosity of King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz of Saudi Arabia we have managed to accumulate an endowment that would be sufficient to allow us to close down in an orderly fashion over the course of a year if we had to do that. By close down, I mean to try to find a home for the three programs that we conduct -- the forums, the journal and the teacher training program. 

"So we are very much now focused on trying to build an endowment to ensure complete continuity of our programs through all time. We probably require $12-$15 million and we are trying very hard to find donors who are willing to contribute to that.

"SUSRIS:  Can you talk more about the program to train American teachers to teach about the Arab world and Islam? 

"Freeman:  Our program of teacher training for high school teachers has been unique. We have done this throughout the country and could in fact have done much more than we have done, particularly right after 9-11. There was a great deal of interest in learning about the Arab world and Islam, but we havent had the funding on a sustained basis to do that."_

*BAE files: Prince Bandar*

*So What? Here's what comes from such a cavalier attitude towards corruption.*

*BAE: secret papers reveal threats from Saudi prince*
_
"Saudi Arabia's rulers threatened to make it easier for terrorists to attack London unless corruption investigations into their arms deals were halted, according to court documents revealed yesterday.

"Previously secret files describe how investigators were told they faced 'another 7/7' and the loss of 'British lives on British streets' if they pressed on with their inquiries and the Saudis carried out their threat to cut off intelligence."_

*Former FBI director defends Saudi prince from bribery allegations*

_"WASHINGTON  Former FBI Director Louis Freeh says $2 billion that flowed from Britain to bank accounts controlled by the Saudi ambassador in the U.S. were sent as part of a secret arms deal between the British and the Saudis that, among other things, made it easier for the Saudis to evade American weapons-sales restrictions.

"Freehs comments were made to the Public Broadcasting Service for a 'Frontline' documentary to be broadcast Tuesday. They have drawn criticism in Washington, where the transfer of funds to the Saudis continues to be the subject of a Justice Department international corruption inquiry."_

*Saudi Oil Lobby Puffs Middle East Centers*

_"I would guess that Saudi Aramco World is sent gratis to a lot of influential people, including congressmen. They're clearly the target audience of this lobbying piece. One of them is even quoted: David Obey (D-Wis.), patron saint of Title VI funding, who helped the centers land a major increase in funding just after 9/11. Obey: 'We need more understanding of the Middle East, its cultures and the issues facing the region. Area-studies centers... [are] critically important in resolving the immediate crisis and in developing long-term solutions.' More understanding obviously will cost more money, and if Obey is to be believed, there is no such thing as a wasted taxpayer dollar when it comes to Middle Eastern studies."_

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