# Lifestyles & Discussion > Personal Health & Well-Being >  The Vaccination Debate

## donnay

> *The Vaccination Debate*
> BY FULL MEASURE STAFF SUNDAY, JANUARY 6TH 2019
> 
> 
> 
> Today we investigate one of the biggest medical controversies of our time: vaccines. Theres little dispute about this much-- vaccines save many lives, and rarely, they injure or kill. A special federal vaccine court has paid out billions for injuries from brain damage to death. But not for the form of brain injury we call autism. Nowwe have remarkable new information: a respected pro-vaccine medical expert used by the federal government to debunk the vaccine-autism link, says vaccines can cause autism after all. He claims he told that to government officials long ago, but they kept it secret.
> 
> Yates Hazlehurst was born February 11, 2000. Everything was normal, according to his medical records, until he suffered a severe reaction to vaccinations. Rolf Hazlehurst is Yates dad.
> 
> ...


http://fullmeasure.news/news/cover-s...ination-debate

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## angelatc

There is no debate.

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## donnay

> There is no debate.


I would expect nothing less coming from you. * Everything* that is imposed upon citizens is up for debate. I know how you like to squelch free speech in this category, nevertheless.

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## Swordsmyth

> There is no debate.


That's what they say about "Climate Change" too.

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## CaptUSA

> There is no debate.


One of the worst thing governments ever did was make vaccinations mandatory.  If these things were strictly left to the free market, these same people would be lining up to buy 'em like Iphones.  But no...  Governments overstepped and people, as they should, became suspicious.

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## Stratovarious

99% of Big Pharma CEO's are in unanimous agreement, the science is in, 
Vaccinations must be mandatory, distribution, manufacturing and health 
workers; 'held harmless' .

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## donnay



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## angelatc

> But is that a good thing, Angela?  Are you thinking 10,000 years into the future?
> 
> _Well are you?_
> 
> Because someone bloody has to.


You are here advocating on behalf of letting people die from easily preventable diseases, because 10,000 years from now something something something something.

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## angelatc

> -Cause and effect, you've proven that?
> -Diseases never die out, humans never develop resistance, without
> vaccines, the human race is doomed?
> -If you give a person the flu shot (they rarely even guess which strain is going to hit/yr).
> -Can you tell us what is in those vaccines? Everything that's in them?
> -Do legislators and Big Pharma Exec really have their children inoculated with the 
> same batches they give to the public, I don't mean do they go to the same outlet, I 
> mean do they get the same batch?
> -Why do _they'  i_nsist on the 'herd effect' , if it works , how do other non inoculated children 
> ...


All these things have been explained politely and patiently multiple times. If you don't know the answers by now, you're not paying attention. Apparently we need a cure for people who are allergic to facts.

There's no debate with people who are still hiding behind the same sad debunked theories they were using 10 years ago.

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## donnay

> All these things have been explained politely and patiently multiple times. If you don't know the answers by now, you're not paying attention. Apparently we need a cure for people who are allergic to facts.
> 
> There's no debate with people who are still hiding behind the same sad debunked theories they were using 10 years ago.


You mean like this fact you brought up in this thread?




> A black Mom and her kids were shot while they were pulling out of WalMart.  They said the shooter was a blue-eyed white man, so the media went into overdrive about the racist attack. The family raised quite a large bit of money on GoFundMe. 
> 
> Two black men were arrested  after the cops got some tips.  
> 
> *The victims mom was Facebook friends with the shooters.*
> 
> Sean King is going to double down on the racist angle anyway.


Again @Cleaner44 is right your so apted to believe the scientists who work for the CDC, Universities and other alphabet agencies who are on the pharmaceutical pay rolls and you find absolutely no conflict of interest at all.   

Also trying to make it look like I have no credentials or I don't do the research only proves you're the bigger fool.  No interaction from you has been polite and civil.  You are nasty women--plain and simple.

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## Stratovarious

> All these things have been explained politely and patiently multiple times. If you don't know the answers by now, you're not paying attention. Apparently we need a cure for people who are allergic to facts.
> 
> There's no debate with people who are still hiding behind the same sad debunked theories they were using 10 years ago.


'' You can keep your doctor'' "the science is in" Ny and Ca are under 22 ft of water

''I'm from the government and I'm here to help ''

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## angelatc

> '' You can keep your doctor'' "the science is in" Ny and Ca are under 22 ft of water
> 
> ''I'm from the government and I'm here to help ''


Moving goalposts.

The only debate about vaccines these days are if they should be mandatory.  Screeching that they don't work, they gave autismz and it's all a NWO plot to rake in billions before killing us off in 10,000 years only serves one side.

And it isn't the freedom side.

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## Stratovarious

> All these things have been explained politely and patiently multiple times. If you don't know the answers by now, you're not paying attention. Apparently we need a cure for people who are allergic to facts.
> 
> There's no debate with people who are still hiding behind the same sad debunked theories they were using 10 years ago.


-
I never deny an answer or explanation to anyone that
asks, I don't have any friends that avoid answers with 
'slights' , if you had the answers to my  questions , like
anyone with 'facts' you would answer them, you do
not have the answers, your position on vaccines is 
clear , your facts are not, because you don't have them.

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## angelatc

> You mean like this fact you brought up in this thread?
> 
> 
> 
> Again @Cleaner44 is right your so apted to believe the scientists who work for the CDC, Universities and other alphabet agencies who are on the pharmaceutical pay rolls and you find absolutely no conflict of interest at all.   
> 
> Also trying to make it look like I have no credentials or I don't do the research only proves you're the bigger fool.  No interaction from you has been polite and civil.  You are nasty women--plain and simple.


Yep, there we are.  Everybody who works in science, academia and government is on on some secret plot plot.  But by golly, you're able to see right through them all.  


And I don't have to make it look like you don't have any credentials, because YOU DON"T HAVE ANY CREDENTIALS! Google and YouTube isn't "research" FFS.

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## angelatc

> -
> I never deny an answer or explanation to anyone that
> asks, I don't have any friends that avoid answers with 
> 'slights' , if you had the answers to my  questions , like
> anyone with 'facts' you would answer them, you do
> not have the answers, your position on vaccines is 
> clear , your facts are not, because you don't have them.


Search the forums, search google.  None of your questions are breaking any new ground, and asking them doesn't make you look clever.    Again, all those things have been answered both here and in pretty much any other venue, ad nauseum. 

Go look up your own answers.

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## Stratovarious

> Moving goalposts.
> 
> The only debate about vaccines these days are if they should be mandatory.  Screeching that they don't work, they gave autismz and it's all a NWO plot to rake in billions before killing us off in 10,000 years only serves one side.
> 
> And it isn't the freedom side.


You are attributing me to statments and stances I have
not made, you don't have facts, that is abundanly clear,
it is not me that is moving goal posts.

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## Stratovarious

> Search the forums, search google.  None of your questions are breaking any new ground, and asking them doesn't make you look clever.    Again, all those things have been answered both here and in pretty much any other venue, ad nauseum. 
> 
> Go look up your own answers.


You don't have the answers.

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## Stratovarious

> Search the forums, search google.  None of your questions are breaking any new ground, and asking them doesn't make you look clever.    Again, all those things have been answered both here and in pretty much any other venue, ad nauseum. 
> 
> Go look up your own answers.


lol 
You browbeat Donnay for using youtube/google, and in 
the next breath send me there.

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## Cleaner44

> Because everything DOnnaY puts together IS hogwash.  She's got the mental capacity of an 8th grader. 
> 
>  If you're asking why I side with rational professionals who have advanced degrees like molecular and cellular biology over a high school drop out who believes that there is a global plot involving all the governments, corporations and universities in the world, then I have to say that's just a stupid question.


That _isn't_ what I am asking.

Let me ask a different question...

Why is it that Paul Krugman is widely viewed as a rational professional, with numerous advanced degrees, from many of the finest Universities (Yale, MIT) and yet you think he is full of $#@! when it comes to the subject that he is an expert in?

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## donnay

> Yep, there we are.  Everybody who works in science, academia and government is on on some secret plot plot.  But by golly, you're able to see right through them all.  
> 
> 
> And I don't have to make it look like you don't have any credentials, because YOU DON"T HAVE ANY CREDENTIALS! Google and YouTube isn't "research" FFS.


I already posted the facts about the corruption.  You simply ignored it on numerous occasions.

You don't know what credentials I have, you THINK you know, but you don't know anything about me.  You love to attack the messager, but never dig into the message well enough to realize just how idiotic YOU sound.

If you don't like what I post, than simply butt the $#@! out.  These threads are for people who want to debate the issues.

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## angelatc

> That _isn't_ what I am asking.
> 
> Let me ask a different question...
> 
> Why is it that Paul Krugman is widely viewed as a rational professional, with numerous advanced degrees, from many of the finest Universities (Yale, MIT) and yet you think he is full of $#@! when it comes to the subject that he is an expert in?


Moving goalposts.  This thread isn't about Krugman.

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## angelatc

> I already posted the facts about the corruption.  You simply ignored it on numerous occasions.
> 
> You don't know what credentials I have, you THINK you know, but you don't know anything about me.  You love to attack the messager, but never dig into the message well enough to realize just how idiotic YOU sound.
> 
> If you don't like what I post, than simply butt the $#@! out.  These threads are for people who want to debate the issues.


YOU DROPPED OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL!  YOU LITERALLY DON'T HAVE ANY CREDENTIALS!


You are not cabable of debate.  We have been doing this for 10 years.  You proudly post trash, sane people explain with great detail that it's garbage, then you post something totally unrelated, or leave the thread entirely.

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## DamianTV

How does one FORCE VACCINES and PRESERVE FREEDOM?  Thats the real doublethinking trash.  Dont take it personally, its exactly the type of topic confusion the elite use to get the focus off of themselves.

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## angelatc

> You don't have the answers.


Of course I do.  If you weren't too lazy to search the forums, you would see that I and others have answered all those questions multiple times.  Dude, you've been here 2 years,  I've been here 11.  I understand you weren't here, but I'm not typing out that crap again and again and again in some useless attempt to satiate the stupid.

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## angelatc

> How does one FORCE VACCINES and PRESERVE FREEDOM?  Thats the real doublethinking trash.  Dont take it personally, its exactly the type of topic confusion the elite use to get the focus off of themselves.


You don't.  But that's what pisses me off about the rabid anti-vaxxers.  They're freedom's worst enemy.

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## donnay

> YOU DROPPED OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL!  YOU LITERALLY DON'T HAVE ANY CREDENTIALS!


Then you prove it--right here and right now.

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## donnay

> How does one FORCE VACCINES and PRESERVE FREEDOM?  Thats the real doublethinking trash.  Dont take it personally, its exactly the type of topic confusion the elite use to get the focus off of themselves.


Because angelatc is a fake and phony.  She doesn't love Liberty and Freedom and this discussion proves it rather well.  She'll back pedal and say she is not for mandatory vaccines but believes in Herd Immunity.

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## Cleaner44

> Moving goalposts.  This thread isn't about Krugman.


I am not moving anything. It is called an Analogy. You didn't answer my first question so I thought I would address your distraction. You took the position that experts with fine degrees should be trusted more than the less educated critics. So on general terms it seems you believe that a highly educated person, such as Krugman, should be believed and trusted more than someone like Ron Paul or any other critic. 

Going back to this subject, I just want a real answer. I know that experts in economics and other fields have agendas and are educated with bad information sometimes. We see it all of the time in many areas. I am genuinely wondering why you don't seem to think this is possible in the medical field. I suspect you would agree with me in regards to other fields. Am I wrong? Do you think that highly educated experts are sometimes wrong, either intentionally or because of bad information?

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## Stratovarious

> Of course I do.  If you weren't too lazy to search the forums, you would see that I and others have answered all those questions multiple times.  Dude, you've been here 2 years,  I've been here 11.  I understand you weren't here, but I'm not typing out that crap again and again and again in some useless attempt to satiate the stupid.


Your personal attacks identify your toolbox and what it contains.
Your refusal to back up your claims is a gallery of what you can't back up.

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## donnay

> Harvard Medical School Doctor: Vaccine Science is Not Settled
> 
> In 2016, I wrote an opinion piece suggesting that many medical doctors vaccinate their patients out of fear. I noted that many doctors do not entirely agree with the vaccine schedule recommended by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) or are unconvinced that the science of vaccination is settled, but many of these physicians are reluctant to share their concerns because they are afraid of damaging their reputation, and so they remain silent.
> 
> Of course, there are independently-minded doctors who are willing to express their concerns about CDC vaccine policies and views promoted by medical trade associations and government agencies. Pro-vaccine pediatricians Bob Sears, MD and Jay Gordon, MD, who have been labeled as “anti-vaxxers” and “quacks,” are given those labels because they are not fans of mandatory vaccination laws and simply prefer to be respectful of the informed consent rights of their patients when it comes to vaccination.1 2 3
> 
> There are many other doctors like Sears and Gordon but they generally prefer to fly under the radar because it’s just not worth the trouble of being overly outspoken on vaccines, unless it’s all positive and in agreement with vaccine policies endorsed by their peers. John Abramson, MD of Harvard Medical School is one of the best examples of this tendency toward caution when doctors speak about vaccination.1
> 
> Dr. Abramson is the author of the national best-selling book Overdosed America: The Broken Promise of American Medicine. His bio states that he has served as a family physician for 22 years. He was twice voted “best doctor” in his area by readers of newspapers in his community and was chosen three times by his peers as one of “a handful of best family practitioners” in Massachusetts. He has been a member of the faculty of Harvard Medical School for 16 years.4
> ...


https://thevaccinereaction.org/2018/...s-not-settled/

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## angelatc

> Because angelatc is a fake and phony.  She doesn't love Liberty and Freedom and this discussion proves it rather well.  She'll back pedal and say she is not for mandatory vaccines but believes in Herd Immunity.


You are the one constantly calling for government bans and controls.  And the reason I believe in herd immunity is because it's a scientific theory that has been proved repeatedly. (That means over and over.)

Look - here is Zimmerman's testimony: https://bolenreport.com/wp-content/u...Deposition.pdf

I know you're not going to comprehend read it, but here's the Cliff Notes version:

  Dr Zimmerman is pro vaccine and even vaccinates his patients. Dr Zimmerman does not conclude that vaccines cause autism. Dr Zimmerman believes that autism is primarily a genetic disorder.  Zimmerman explains how he continues to vaccinate, even in children with mitochondrial disorders (see: Hanna Poling), as he understands the benefits outweigh the risks. He explains that in his opinion the Yates Hazelhurst medical records show no signs of regression. He asserts that encephalopathy is a separate condition from autism.  He states that “mitochondrial autism” is not a valid medical term.

As usual, he didn't reach the conclusions your article attributes to him.

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## angelatc

> I am not moving anything. It is called an Analogy.


It has no useful purpose.

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## angelatc

> Then you prove it--right here and right now.


Again proving that you have no idea how science works.  The burden of proof is on you. You implied you have some advanced degree in a vaccine science field. Let's see it.

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## angelatc

> Your personal attacks identify your toolbox and what it contains.
> Your refusal to back up your claims is a gallery of what you can't back up.


Go away little boy.  You bore me.

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## donnay

> You are the one constantly calling for government bans and controls.  And the reason I believe in herd immunity is because it's a scientific theory that has been proved repeatedly. (That means over and over.)
> 
> Look - here is Zimmerman's testimony: https://bolenreport.com/wp-content/u...Deposition.pdf
> 
> I know you're not going to comprehend read it, but here's the Cliff Notes version:
> 
>   Dr Zimmerman is pro vaccine and even vaccinates his patients. Dr Zimmerman does not conclude that vaccines cause autism. Dr Zimmerman believes that autism is primarily a genetic disorder.  Zimmerman explains how he continues to vaccinate, even in children with mitochondrial disorders (see: Hanna Poling), as he understands the benefits outweigh the risks. He explains that in his opinion the Yates Hazelhurst medical records show no signs of regression. He asserts that encephalopathy is a separate condition from autism.  He states that “mitochondrial autism” is not a valid medical term.
> 
> 
> As usual, he didn't reach the conclusions your article attributes to him.



$#@! you.  Where is the proof that I dropped out of High School and have no credentials?  Answer the question and stop dodging it.

Herd Immunity is, in fact, a  "Theory" by a man named, Arthur W. Hedrich and had nothing to do with vaccines.  Herd Immunity, is about natural immunity from diseases that children would get, such as chicken pox, measles and other childhood disease which would give them lifetime immunity.  However pro-vaxxers took  on Herd Immunity as gospel with regards to vaccines and it has been debunked many times here, by scientist and medical doctors.  So your point is moot.

Ref:
https://kellybroganmd.com/herd-immunity-fact-fiction/
https://thevaccinereaction.org/2018/...vaccination-2/
https://thevaccinereaction.org/2017/...dly-disproven/

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## donnay

> Again proving that you have no idea how science works.  The burden of proof is on you. You implied you have some advanced degree in a vaccine science field. Let's see it.


I never imply anything, you were doing all the implying.  So either you put up, or shut up.

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## Zippyjuan

> $#@! you.  Where is the proof that I dropped out of High School and have no credentials?  Answer the question and stop dodging it.
> 
> Herd Immunity is, in fact, a  "Theory" by a man named, Arthur W. Hedrich and had nothing to do with vaccines.  *Herd Immunity, is about natural immunity from diseases that children would get, such as chicken pox, measles and other childhood disease which would give them lifetime immunity.*  However pro-vaxxers took  on Herd Immunity as gospel with regards to vaccines and it has been debunked many times here, by scientist and medical doctors.  So your point is moot.
> 
> Ref:
> https://kellybroganmd.com/herd-immunity-fact-fiction/
> https://thevaccinereaction.org/2018/...vaccination-2/
> https://thevaccinereaction.org/2017/...dly-disproven/


Actually herd immunity is the idea that if enough people in a population are vaccinated or otherwise immune, the disease the vaccine prevents would be too rare to infect much of those not vaccinated- the vaccinated herd protects the unvaccinated group. 

When the protected group gets below a certain amount, the protection is no longer sufficient for the unprotected to be relatively safe.   https://www.ovg.ox.ac.uk/news/herd-i...w-does-it-work

The unvaccinated do not have protection themselves but rely on others being protected.  The immunity can come either from being vaccinated or getting the disease yourself.

Herd immunity does not mean no body can get sick.  Outbreaks can still happen among those without immunity.

The term actually is from 1923 in a paper written by W. W. C. Topley and G. S. Wilson.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2167341/

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## donnay

> Actually herd immunity is the idea that if enough people in a population are vaccinated or otherwise immune, the disease the vaccine prevents would be too rare to infect much of those not vaccinated- the vaccinated herd protects the unvaccinated group. 
> 
> When the protected group gets below a certain amount, the protection is no longer sufficient for the unprotected to be relatively safe.   https://www.ovg.ox.ac.uk/news/herd-i...w-does-it-work
> 
> The unvaccinated do not have protection themselves but rely on others being protected.  The immunity can come either from being vaccinated or getting the disease yourself.


Your just as wrong as ever.  Natural immunity is what it was all about.  Vaccines cause shedding and create more problems.  That's why most of the Measles vaccines failed and people were told they needed another booster.  But carry on with your deception, maybe some other dolt will believe you.

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## Zippyjuan

> Your just as wrong as ever.  Natural immunity is what it was all about. * Vaccines cause shedding and create more problems.*  That's why most of the Measles vaccines failed and people were told they needed another booster.  But carry on with your deception, maybe some other dolt will believe you.


The source of the immunity is not what matters- it is the existence of the immunity which protects those without their own immunity.  At the time of his paper, vaccines were more rare. He looked at measles in Boston and there was no measles vaccine until 30 years later (the first licensed measles vaccine was in 1963). https://www.historyofvaccines.org/timeline/measles

Vaccine shedding is theoretically only possible with a live virus vaccine and few (only three) are live virus.  There has not been a single documented case outside a laboratory though. Measles is not a live virus vaccine so it is impossible to shed. https://www.immunizeusa.org/blog/201...cine-shedding/

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## angelatc

> $#@! you.  Where is the proof that I dropped out of High School and have no credentials?  Answer the question and stop dodging it.
> 
> Herd Immunity is, in fact, a  "Theory" by a man named, Arthur W. Hedrich and had nothing to do with vaccines.  Herd Immunity, is about natural immunity from diseases that children would get, such as chicken pox, measles and other childhood disease which would give them lifetime immunity.  However pro-vaxxers took  on Herd Immunity as gospel with regards to vaccines and it has been debunked many times here, by scientist and medical doctors.  So your point is moot.
> 
> Ref:
> https://kellybroganmd.com/herd-immunity-fact-fiction/
> https://thevaccinereaction.org/2018/...vaccination-2/
> https://thevaccinereaction.org/2017/...dly-disproven/


Oh look - she's going to avoid the  actual topic of the thread while trying to force me to prove a negative. And changing the definition of herd immunity, too.  This is what always happens.  

JFC - I know I have explained theory in the past.   Everything in science is a theory.  Nothing is ever 100% proved.  Every single thing is a hypothesis being tested over and over and over.   

Your links are garbage, btw.   Here's a real scientific paper, not a blog:  




> The term herd immunity has been used by various authors to conform to different definitions. Earlier this situation had been identified but not corrected. We propose that it should have precise meaning for which purpose a new definition is offered: "the proportion of subjects with immunity in a given population". This definition dissociates herd immunity from the indirect protection observed in the unimmunised segment of a population in which a large proportion is immunised, for which the term 'herd effect' is proposed. It is defined as: "the reduction of infection or disease in the unimmunised segment as a result of immunising a proportion of the population". Herd immunity can be measured by testing a sample of the population for the presence of the chosen immune parameter. Herd effect can be measured by quantifying the decline in incidence in the unimmunised segment of a population in which an immunisation programme is instituted. Herd immunity applies to immunisation or infection, human to human transmitted or otherwise. On the other hand, herd effect applies to immunisation or other health interventions which reduce the probability of transmission, confined to infections transmitted human to human, directly or via vector. The induced herd immunity of a given vaccine exhibits geographic variation as it depends upon coverage and efficacy of the vaccine, both of which can vary geographically. Herd effect is determined by herd immunity as well as the force of transmission of the corresponding infection. Clear understanding of these phenomena and their relationships will help improve the design of effective and efficient immunisation programmes aimed at control, elimination or eradication of vaccine preventable infectious diseases.

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## angelatc

> The source of the immunity is not what matters- it is the existence of the immunity which protects those without their own immunity.  At the time of his paper, vaccines were more rare. 
> 
> Vaccine shedding is theoretically only possible with a live virus vaccine and few are live virus.  There has not been a single documented case outside a laboratory though. Measles is not a live virus vaccine so it is impossible to shed. https://www.immunizeusa.org/blog/201...cine-shedding/


We have explained this over and over and over, and yet here she still is.  The conversation won't ever advance because she literally refuses to learn.

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## angelatc

> Your just as wrong as ever.  Natural immunity is what it was all about.  Vaccines cause shedding and create more problems.  That's why most of the Measles vaccines failed and people were told they needed another booster.  But carry on with your deception, maybe some other dolt will believe you.


You are just flat out wrong. About everything.

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## Cleaner44

> It has no useful purpose.


You have failed to persuade me. Your argument that we should simply believe people with fancy hats and fine degrees from elite schools just doesn't fly with me. If I accepted your premise I would also have to say that Keynesian are right and Mises is wrong and that is just plain stupid. Maybe you also subscribe to the school of thought that the science is settling on global warming, but I don't know that you would be correct. Sure lots of highly educated people repeat this phrase but it doesn't make it true. From what I hear there are people that swear the Earth is flat, but that doesn't make it so. 

Enjoy blindly accepting whatever government workers and socialist schools feed you. Not for me.

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## donnay

> The source of the immunity is not what matters- it is the existence of the immunity which protects those without their own immunity.  At the time of his paper, vaccines were more rare. He looked at measles iin Boston and there was no measles vaccine until 30 years later (the first licensed measles vaccine was in 1963). https://www.historyofvaccines.org/timeline/measles
> 
> Vaccine shedding is theoretically only possible with a live virus vaccine and few (only three) are live virus.  There has not been a single documented case outside a laboratory though. Measles is not a live virus vaccine so it is impossible to shed. https://www.immunizeusa.org/blog/201...cine-shedding/





> The hallmark of vaccination is that it bypasses the cell-mediated response in favor of a “mock infection,” while encouraging a disproportionate humoral response. According to an elegant new book by Dr. Thomas Cowan (Vaccines, Autoimmunity, and the Changing Nature of Childhood Illness), this “reckless” suppression of the cell-mediated response is a very bad idea: “Interfering with such a precise immune response” (the result of “millions of years of evolutionary fine-tuning”) carries with it “massive risk of unintended consequence[s]”—and those consequences are now manifesting in the form of an autoimmunity crisis. Cowan states:
> 
> “The deliberate provocation of antibodies without prior cell-mediated activity produces an imbalance in our immune system and a state of excessive antibody production. This excessive antibody production actually defines autoimmune disease. …With millions of people suffering from autoimmune disease, at a number unheard of before the introduction of mass vaccination programs, how can this connection be deemed controversial?” [Emphasis in original]
> 
> Forfeiting protections
> Immunologic dysregulation—including dysfunction of the type brought about by vaccination—is associated not just with autoimmunity but also with cancer, and childhood cancers are skyrocketing. In contrast, many of the once-universal childhood illnesses were, in fact, protective against various cancers. Stated another way, acute infections, and especially those that caused fever, were historically “antagonistic to cancer.” For example:
> 
> Naturally acquired mumps engendered immunity to ovarian cancer through antibodies against a cancer-associated antigen.
> Individuals who experienced fever-inducing infectious illnesses in childhood (such as rubella and chickenpox) had a lower risk of non-breast cancers, including melanoma and ovarian cancer.
> ...


https://childrenshealthdefense.org/n...mmune-systems/




> Having measles may be beneficial. As radical as it sounds to some, there is a school of thought that having a natural measles infection is beneficial. Natural measles may protect against some forms of cancer later in life, as well as the tendency to have future allergic, immunological, and degenerative conditions. Unfortunately the “opportunity” to have the natural infection has been taken away from our children. Vaccinated people are not having natural measles, and neither are most unvaccinated people, as the disease has been largely suppressed. When it does occur, it is often at a non-physiological age (under 5 years old, or in adulthood), when it is more likely to be accompanied by complications. Ideally, children should be having measles during the normal time frame, which creates long-lasting, true herd immunity rather than vaccine-induced, false “herd immunity,” which is destined to wane within 5-10 years in the majority of vaccinated people. When mothers were having natural measles during their own childhood years, they were passing much stronger and more protective antibodies to their infants during pregnancy and with breastfeeding. By the time maternally-conferred immunity waned, the cycle repeated itself with natural childhood infections in their offspring. When widespread use of the vaccine became customary, we lost these protective biological dynamics.


http://tenpennyimc.com/2015/02/17/me...t-in-a-teapot/





> Scientific evidence demonstrates that individuals vaccinated with live virus vaccines such as MMR (measles, mumps and rubella), rotavirus, chicken pox, shingles and influenza can shed the virus for many weeks or months afterwards and infect the vaccinated and unvaccinated alike.1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10
> 
> Furthermore, vaccine recipients can carry diseases in the back of their throat and infect others while displaying no symptoms of a disease.11,12,13


https://www.westonaprice.org/studies...pread-disease/


This right here is pretty alarming:




> ...an alarming new study describes the case of an anonymous male patient in the UK who has carried the virus in his body for almost 30 years. Researchers from the National Institute for Biological Standards and Control analysed more than 100 stool samples from the man collected over a period of 20 years and found each contained high levels of the polio virus (strain 2).
> 
> How could this be? After all, the man in question had received his full course of childhood immunisations, with an oral polio vaccine administered at five, seven, and 12 months of age, plus a booster when he was about seven years old.
> 
> According to the study, which is published in PLOS Pathogens, he was later diagnosed with common variable immunodeficiency, which means his immune system couldn’t adequately kill off the small amount of the virus delivered to his digestive tract by the vaccinations.
> 
> But when doctors analysed his stool samples, they found that the strains of vaccine-derived polio virus within were different from the weakened vaccine strain with which he was immunised as a child. What this means is that the virus in his system had mutated in his body over the course of 28 years, developing into a potentially more dangerous form.


https://www.sciencealert.com/a-man-i...early-30-years

----------


## Zippyjuan

Yep- not a single documented case of shedding from a vaccinated patient. But a wall of unrelated text to hide that.




> Acute childhood infections


Acute infections can also kill children.

----------


## donnay

> Yep- not a single documented case of shedding from a vaccinated patient. But a wall of unrelated text to hide that.
> 
> 
> 
> Acute infections can also kill children.


Well if you read it, you would realize that most of those vaccines are compulsatory vaccine for school children. When outbreaks happen, it's clear and evident that shedding of diseases may very well be the culprit.

----------


## donnay

> You are just flat out wrong. About everything.


Good then bugger off.  You offer nothing to the discussion anyway but bull$#@! propaganda.

----------


## angelatc

> Yep- not a single documented case of shedding from a vaccinated patient. But a wall of unrelated text to hide that.
> 
> 
> .


Every. Single. Time.  It's almost like she doesn't understand even basic science.

----------


## angelatc

> Well if you read it, you would realize that most of those vaccines are compulsatory vaccine for school children. When outbreaks happen, it's clear and evident that shedding of diseases may very well be the culprit.



If vaccine shedding caused outbreaks, then there would be MORE, not less, outbreaks in vaccinated populations.   And the transmission rates here in the US have dropped so low credentialed researchers can literally track back to patient zero to determine where the outbreak originated.  It does not track back to shedding because there is literally no proof that it happens. Ever.

----------


## angelatc

> You have failed to persuade me. Your argument that we should simply believe people with fancy hats and fine degrees from elite schools just doesn't fly with me.
> 
> Enjoy blindly accepting whatever government workers and socialist schools feed you. Not for me.


You misstate my position, which is that people with advanced degrees and decades of specialized research have a much higher chance of being able to provide documented data and experiments to support their theories.  

DonnaY never, ever does that.  I posted a direct link to the actual testimony that started this off, and she gish-galloped away as fast as she possibly can.

There is literally no debate about the safety and effectiveness of vaccines. None, nada, zip.  As usual, the source for the piece she posted actually debunks the piece she posted.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Well if you read it, you would realize that most of those vaccines are compulsatory vaccine for school children. *When outbreaks happen, it's clear and evident that shedding of diseases may very well be the culprit.*


I noted earlier that there are only three vaccines for kids which use a live virus and are theoretically possible to experience shedding.  Those are chickenpox, smallpox, and rotavirus.  Some versions of the flu vaccine (the nasal spray one) also uses a live virus. Other vaccines (like measles) cannot be shed. No cases of shedding following a live virus vaccine have been documented. Measles outbreaks cannot be caused by shedding from somebody who was vaccinated.

----------


## Cleaner44

> You misstate my position, which is that people with advanced degrees and decades of specialized research have a much higher chance of being able to provide documented data and experiments to support their theories.  
> 
> DonnaY never, ever does that.  I posted a direct link to the actual testimony that started this off, and she gish-galloped away as fast as she possibly can.
> 
> There is literally no debate about the safety and effectiveness of vaccines. None, nada, zip.  As usual, the source for the piece she posted actually debunks the piece she posted.


I wouldn't disagree that educated and experienced people have much to offer and that we should listen. I am only saying that there are many so-called experts that are in fact compromised and we should be prepared to refute them (I'm looking at you Krugman).

I do believe that most vaccines are safe for most people. I also know that there are serious risks with most pharmaceuticals and even the vaccine makes publish their very real risks. 

I don't know, but I suspect that the vaccine court exist to protect the pharmaceutical companies, not the public. I don't believe in the idea of shielding businesses from lawsuits. That is the kind of crap that allows BP to pollute the gulf and not really be held accountable.

----------


## Zippyjuan

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...cs-kaci-hickox




> “I did not say vaccines caused disorders, just that they were temporally related – I did not allege causation,” Paul said in a statement. *“I support vaccines, I receive them myself and I had all of my children vaccinated.* In fact today, I received the booster shot for the vaccines I got when I went to Guatemala last year.”

----------


## Schifference

Send people into a population of people with polio. All people outside the population have not had the vaccine. Most all people in the population have polio. Before entering the population you are offered an opportunity to get the vaccine. Do you take the vaccine or refuse it?
I would take it.

----------


## H_H

> I know that that outdated  food pyramid has nothing to do with vaccines.  But here  - I have a pyramid too!!!
> 
> "Anti-vax mom who ignores the entire medical community and instead gets her health info from random websites"


Whee!

It has everything to do with *What I am Saying*.  As you jolly well know.  Now perhaps you do not care what I am saying.  I don't think that's true, I think you respect my opinion.  But perhaps you have no idea what I'm saying.  That is actually very likely, because I am a poor communicator.

My point is:  There are entire communities, and scientific communities especially, which have transparently shown themselves to be provably committed to LYING.  To LIES.  To *FALSIFYING* DATA, RESULTS, CONCLUSIONS, PEER REVIEW, EVERYTHING, the whole kit and kaboodle.

No one ever believed in the Food Pyramid, as I explained in the previous thread.  No one ever could.  Not one single professional mainstream nutritionist ever believed in that joke.  And not one single professional mainstream nutritionist ever disavowed it, ever published an article letting the public know it was total, laughable, transparent garbage.  NOT ONE, Angela.  Answer me that, Angela.

Now you had an answer: "Oh isn't it wonderful how the peer review system really super works and it corrected that error, moving on to higher and loftier truths, as it always inevitably does?"  Baloney.  The only reason the dogma was ever overturned instead of being permanent like Global Warming was due to the Fad Diet system that America runs on.  This is a highly dysfunctional system, but in this case it had the good side-effect of providing an unstoppable and uncensorable commercial conduit through which heterodox nutritional viewpoints could reach the public, via their insatiable hunger for an endless stream of new diets, totally bypassing the establishment.  That's how it happened and that's a *fact*.

I could give more examples of scientific communities engaging in and committed to long-term fraud and deception if you're being obtuse and refuse to see *facts*.  Psychology.  Whatcha think of Freudian psychology, Angela?  Just a bunch of noble Truth-Seekers, called to disseminate Truth, following the Scientific Method?  Yeah, me neither.  Hmm.  And yet these perverted wackos were presented for a hundred years as a scientific field, a source of authoritative truth.... _and still are_!

You see how utterly unconvincing it is to argue purely from authority ("Respeck Muh Medical _Communitay_!") in a society built entirely upon an edifice of Lies featuring many-to-all scientific communities also complicit in lies (naturally.  Just as much as the next guy)?  And to people, RPFers, who _know_ they live in an Empire of Lies?  It's not convincing.  So ditch that junk.

Now the actual scientific method (in contrast to its modern replacement: peer review) is very convincing to rational people like myself.  But you've also gotta back up and be willing to be a little bit creative in the questions you're willing to ask and to answer to get anywhere or understand anything.  That's science, actually.  By the way.  One interesting question might be:

1. Might there be any poisonous substances which could be injected by needle which could cause deleterious effects to the human body?

If your answer to that question is "yes" -- and you are _not being honest_ if it is not -- then next try this one on for size:

2. Do you, in fact, sitting there in the examination room, have any way whatsoever of knowing what it is that's in that doctor's syringe?

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Whee!
> 
> It has everything to do with *What I am Saying*.  As you jolly well know.  Now perhaps you do not care what I am saying.  I don't think that's true, I think you respect my opinion.  But perhaps you have no idea what I'm saying.  That is actually very likely, because I am a poor communicator.
> 
> My point is:  There are entire communities, and scientific communities especially, which have transparently shown themselves to be provably committed to LYING.  To LIES.  To *FALSIFYING* DATA, RESULTS, CONCLUSIONS, PEER REVIEW, EVERYTHING, the whole kit and kaboodle.
> 
> No one ever believed in the Food Pyramid, as I explained in the previous thread.  No one ever could.  Not one single professional mainstream nutritionist ever believed in that joke.  And not one single professional mainstream nutritionist ever disavowed it, ever published an article letting the public know it was total, laughable, transparent garbage.  NOT ONE, Angela.  Answer me that, Angela.
> 
> Now you had an answer: "Oh isn't it wonderful how the peer review system really super works and it corrected that error, moving on to higher and loftier truths, as it always inevitably does?"  Baloney.  The only reason the dogma was ever overturned instead of being permanent like Global Warming was due to the Fad Diet system that America runs on.  This is a highly dysfunctional system, but in this case it had the good side-effect of providing an unstoppable and uncensorable commercial conduit through which heterodox nutritional viewpoints could reach the public, via their insatiable hunger for an endless stream of new diets, totally bypassing the establishment.  That's how it happened and that's a *fact*.
> ...


3. Does the doctor?

----------


## H_H

> You are here advocating on behalf of letting people die from easily preventable diseases, because 10,000 years from now something something something something.


I'm just advocating thinking unemotionally about biological issues.

These are biological issues.

Now you can make them moral issues, and almost everyone does, and so probably you do, but if you do then you are completely clouded and can probably never come to any rational thinking.  Because then you're not willing to confront any models which ignore your morality altogether.  It's too emotionally distressing and disorienting.

I'm just saying we should be able to think about it.  Just to think.  Rationally. Unemotionally.  That's all.

It's non-obvious that insulating a species from all attacks, threats, and struggles will cause a permanent improvement to that species' well-being.  I think that can be disputed.

----------


## DamianTV

> Because angelatc is a fake and phony.  She doesn't love Liberty and Freedom and this discussion proves it rather well.  She'll back pedal and say she is not for mandatory vaccines but believes in Herd Immunity.


I get that people are afraid of transmissible diseases.  But if the vaccine does what its supposed to do, why worry so much about other people so much?  Vaccines do not stop the spread of many viruses, but may lessen the severity of the effects, but, at a cost, which is why it has to be a personal choice.  I think what the Talking Heads are actually worried about is their Stock Prices going down because people dont buy either the vaccines, or the continuous lies, such as "the water in Flint Michigan is perfectly safe".

Of course, I might be fake myself.  More self deception, thinking that Govt should be charged with safeguarding our nation against Illegal Immigration too, and NOT forcing vaccines on people.  But, at the same time, I might not be fake...  Same pattern applies, deceive the public into making the wrong choice.  I dont think going after one person here helps that much.  Talking Heads on TV just parrot what they are told to say.  Real solutions on the debate come from going after the Source of the lies, the Money Manipulators.

I will always choose Dangerous Freedom over Tyranny.

----------


## euphemia

How old are your children, angela?

----------


## angelatc

> I get that people are afraid of transmissible diseases.  But if the vaccine does what its supposed to do, why worry so much about other people so much? .


This has been answered about 100 times.  It's like talking to goddamn walls.  It's a valid question, but at this point asking it means you actually haven't done any homework.

1. Vaccines are not 100% effective. Stopping outbreaks depends on having a certain percentage of the population immunized.
2.  Infants and immuno-compromised individuals are especially prone to depending on the immunity of the surrounding herd.
3. We'll never be allowed to have freedom when we have people dumb enough to believe the $#@! the anti-vaxxers shovel.    The world should condemn them loudly and harshly at every given opportunity.  They are death peddlers.

----------


## angelatc

> Good then bugger off.  You offer nothing to the discussion anyway but bull$#@! propaganda.


I offered you the proof that the article you posted was bull$#@! by linking directly to the paper your original article cherry picked.  By all definitions, that makes your post the propaganda.

----------


## Schifference

> You are the one constantly calling for government bans and controls.  And the reason I believe in herd immunity is because it's a scientific theory that has been proved repeatedly. (That means over and over.)
> 
> Look - here is Zimmerman's testimony: https://bolenreport.com/wp-content/u...Deposition.pdf
> 
> I know you're not going to comprehend read it, but here's the Cliff Notes version:
> 
>   Dr Zimmerman is pro vaccine and even vaccinates his patients. Dr Zimmerman does not conclude that vaccines cause autism. Dr Zimmerman believes that autism is primarily a genetic disorder.  Zimmerman explains how he continues to vaccinate, even in children with mitochondrial disorders (see: Hanna Poling), as he understands the benefits outweigh the risks. He explains that in his opinion the Yates Hazelhurst medical records show no signs of regression. He asserts that encephalopathy is a separate condition from autism.  He states that mitochondrial autism is not a valid medical term.
> 
> As usual, he didn't reach the conclusions your article attributes to him.


I tip my hat to you! I appreciate your unwavering dedication to this topic. It would be easier for you to just ignore this issue rather than present the facts as they are at this point in time. If you stayed silent real data would be misinterpreted/mis-presented. 

People should read that document before spewing opinions.

Thank you!

----------


## Schifference

If the herd has been vaccinated there is less disease in the population so the people that are not vaccinated have less exposure to the disease and are less likely to acquire it.

----------


## euphemia

I was asking sincerely, Angela.  We vaccinated our daughter to the schedule, but that schedule was not so rigorous as it is today.  I think children’s immune systems develop  as they grow.  Especially breastfed babies have some natural immunity.  I don’t think it needs to be artificially forced to the degree the medical industrial complex thinks it should be.  

I think there is an agenda that has nothing to do with health.  I think the earlier children are vaccinated, the earlier the system will start to drive them into early education programs.  Such programs are touted to be the solution to literacy and social maladjustment.  If that were the case, you would have seen those results in a generation.  We have not seen that.  We are see worse results.  Early education may have some short-term benefit, but it has been proven that the benefit levels out by about grade 4 or 5.  But you do have another year or two or indoctrination, and I know you don’t agree with that.  

My daughter has chosen not to follow the standard schedule.  She is asking her pediatrician to space out the vaccines so they aren’t giving so many different shots at once.  Parents always need to make informed decisions and decide what their children should take.  Smart parenting does not put all its eggs in the vaccination basket.  Keep kids away from sick people.  Keep kids home when they are sick.  Feed them good food, give them plenty of clean water, and make sure they get outside to get plenty of fresh air.  Keep the home environment clean.  Deal with infestations of vermin. It’s a lifestyle, not a for-profit industry decision.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Sane, rational and reasonable.

+rep




> I was asking sincerely, Angela.  We vaccinated our daughter to the schedule, but that schedule was not so rigorous as it is today.  I think children’s immune systems develop  as they grow.  Especially breastfed babies have some natural immunity.  I don’t think it needs to be artificially forced to the degree the medical industrial complex thinks it should be.  
> 
> I think there is an agenda that has nothing to do with health.  I think the earlier children are vaccinated, the earlier the system will start to drive them into early education programs.  Such programs are touted to be the solution to literacy and social maladjustment.  If that were the case, you would have seen those results in a generation.  We have not seen that.  We are see worse results.  Early education may have some short-term benefit, but it has been proven that the benefit levels out by about grade 4 or 5.  But you do have another year or two or indoctrination, and I know you don’t agree with that.  
> 
> My daughter has chosen not to follow the standard schedule.  She is asking her pediatrician to space out the vaccines so they aren’t giving so many different shots at once.  Parents always need to make informed decisions and decide what their children should take.  Smart parenting does not put all its eggs in the vaccination basket.  Keep kids away from sick people.  Keep kids home when they are sick.  Feed them good food, give them plenty of clean water, and make sure they get outside to get plenty of fresh air.  Keep the home environment clean.  Deal with infestations of vermin. It’s a lifestyle, not a for-profit industry decision.

----------


## fisharmor

> Yep, there we are.  Everybody who works in science, academia and government is on on some secret plot plot.  But by golly, you're able to see right through them all.


The only problem with your statement here is that the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program isn't a secret.
https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html
https://www.hrsa.gov/sites/default/f...ember-2018.pdf
It is a fact that this program has paid out over 4 billion dollars in compensation since its inception.
It is a fact that vaccines are conceded, without argument, by this court to be the root cause of 17 per cent of the injuries that are compensated.
It is a fact that vaccines are found by the court, after hearing arguments, to be the root cause of a further 9 per cent of the injuries that are compensated.
It is a fact that in 74 per cent of the compensated injuries, the VICP holds the vaccine blameless.
It is a fact that if there was no correlation between the vaccine and the other 74 per cent of the injuries, then they would not have paid compensation.
It is therefore a reasonable assumption that in 74 per cent of the injuries, the VICP is paying hush money.

This is after the moral hazard has been implemented of allowing pharmaceutical companies not to stand responsible for their vaccines.  This is the government you place absolute faith in on this point, openly admitting that vaccines cause injuries, and covering up injuries almost three quarters of the time.

I can find no information as to whether the VICP is forwarding injury data or case studies to anyone who follows up on these injuries.  In other words, there is no evidence of any follow-up with the pharmaceutical companies.

It is a further fact that a proper double-blind study on vaccine efficacy and injury is ethically and legally impossible, and therefore, actual science really doesn't have much of a leg to stand on here.

It's not a secret.  It's another one of those things that is easily verifiable and in plain sight. If you want to say "science, academia and government is on on some secret plot plot" that's fine, but you can't refute any of these facts on the ground... not without undermining your faith in the state, which, as already pointed out by @Cleaner44 (despite your inability to see it), destroys your argument.

----------


## Firestarter

> Vaccines don't suffer that phenomenon.  We can watch the disease rates fall exactly as predicted when the vaccine rates hit a certain level in the population.  There is no debate about that.


 If there is "no debate" than why are there so many posts in this thread?!?

One of the great tricks big pharma uses is to quickly administer vaccines after the epidemic is already over. And then when the disease becomes less this is subsequently reported as hard evidence that the vaccines prevent diseases!
The following picture shows that the decline in death rate had nothing to do with vaccines, including: Measles for which a vaccine was introduced in 1963, Whooping cough (Pertussis) - vaccine 1949, and Diphtheria - vaccine 1920.

----------


## H_H

I’ve been directing my comments to Angela, because I think she is the party smart enough to understand me and so I have a hope of having a productive conversation.  And I think she will eventually reply to the valid and rational points I’ve raised and we will have just such a conversation. 

In in the meantime, let me now turn to those of you who are opposing her (quite rudely at times, may I just say).  Here’s your truth bombs. 

1.  A range somewhere between and inclusive of everything and almost everything of what Angela has written to you about vaccines is true. T-R-U-E. True. In that sense you have totally lost the debate. This is probably why the expressions of anger and insults: at some level, you know this, but of course you still are opposed to vaccines anyway. This is why you should read my posts, because they will provide you with new, valid, and unimpeachable arguments for the stance you want to keep. 

2.  The main true thing, big picture, that Angela keeps harping on to you is that vaccines are beneficial, they prevent various diseases, and they can only do that if a certain critical percentage of the population takes the vaccine. That is all, in my opinion, indisputably true. It’s kind of been established by the real and tangible historical experience of humanity, on the scale of tens of millions of people. It is impossible to successfully explain the last hundred years’ history of disease patterns without something like standard immunity/vaccination theory. 

3.  Pretty well-established, but less definite, are all the detail things like “the tiny amounts of mercury involved couldn’t possibly matter and cause a problem,” ”there is no convincing correlation between getting immunized and getting autism,” etc. If your thing is quibbling about details, if that’s what you’re into, this would be the place to do it, because it’s possible that injected mercury could turn out to have a different biologic effect than mercury incoming digestively through fish.  Things like that. But the weight of evidence is currently on Angela’s side on most of these little side things.

So, what approach should you take if you want to continue the debate?

Contra 1.  Offer your own incontrovertibly-true statements so that the pro-vaccine side, Angela, isn’t the only one making such statements. I gave one example: it is incontrovertibly true that injections could be poisoned. Nobody can disprove that, and anyone who tries will look like a fool (kind of like you guys look trying to disprove some of Angela’s true statements, tbh).

Contra 2.  Challenge the unchallenged assumption that preventing preventable disease is always and everywhere the best course of action for the human race. That is far from proven and far from obvious. Just because something can be prevented doesn’t mean it has to be or should be. That is the Helicopter Mom mentality. No, I, and all reasonable parents, are in favor of intentionally and consciously *failing* to prevent many preventable injuries. Skinned knees make strong kids. 

Contra 3.  As I told you already, here you can get bogged down in the details endlessly, if you like. Endless source of materials there: uncertainty; interpretation; fodder for back-and-forth.

----------


## angelatc

> The only problem with your statement here is that the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program isn't a secret.
> https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html
> https://www.hrsa.gov/sites/default/f...ember-2018.pdf
> It is a fact that this program has paid out over 4 billion dollars in compensation since its inception.
> It is a fact that vaccines are conceded, without argument, by this court to be the root cause of 17 per cent of the injuries that are compensated.
> It is a fact that vaccines are found by the court, after hearing arguments, to be the root cause of a further 9 per cent of the injuries that are compensated.
> It is a fact that in 74 per cent of the compensated injuries, the VICP holds the vaccine blameless.
> It is a fact that if there was no correlation between the vaccine and the other 74 per cent of the injuries, then they would not have paid compensation.
> It is therefore a reasonable assumption that in 74 per cent of the injuries, the VICP is paying hush money.
> ...


Gish gallop.  Using a no-fault system makes a lot more sense. Complex epidemiological judgments shouldn't be made by random uneducated jurors. Which is illistrated perfectly by this one single statement:




> It is a fact that if there was no correlation between the vaccine and the other 74 per cent of the injuries, then they would not have paid compensation.


That's not how it works.

----------


## angelatc

> 3.  Pretty well-established, but less definite, are all the detail things like “the tiny amounts of mercury involved couldn’t possibly matter and cause a problem,” ”there is no convincing correlation between getting immunized and getting autism,” etc. If your thing is quibbling about details, if that’s what you’re into, this would be the place to do it, because it’s possible that* injected mercury could turn out to have a different biologic effect than mercury incoming digestively t*hrough fish.


Ethyl vs Methyl mercury.  And I haven't looked at the science in the past few years, but the odd thing is that there's no documented side effects of eating fish with high mercury counts.  I know last time this came up the cognitive dissonance made heads explode, but the working theory at the time was that the mercury bonded with the selenium in the fish, so it didn't bond in humans.

I seem to recall using Japan as the most obvious example.  Their diet is a very high percentage of seafood, yet they're not stupid and deformed.

This is an example of the government being overly cautious.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> 3. We'll never be allowed to have freedom when we have people dumb enough to believe the $#@! the anti-vaxxers shovel.    The world should condemn them loudly and harshly at every given opportunity.  They are death peddlers.


We'll never be "allowed" to have freedom when we approach it as something we should be "allowed" to have in the first place.

Freedom is every human being's birthright. 

Sadly, like so much in this world, it is immediately contradicted.

And I disagree with the premise of your statement.

It seems to me as humanity gets softer and life gets easier, the less and less freedom there is.

----------


## angelatc

> We'll never be "allowed" to have freedom when we approach it as something we should be "allowed" to have in the first place.
> 
> Freedom is every human being's birthright. 
> 
> Sadly, like so much in this world, it is immediately contradicted.
> 
> And I disagree with the premise of your statement.
> 
> It seems to me as humanity gets softer and life gets easier, the less and less freedom there is.


I think you're right about that.  When we were actually forced to survive, rather than just live, we had too much of our own stuff to worry about.

----------


## fisharmor

> Gish gallop.  Using a no-fault system makes a lot more sense.


I'm not sure how you don't understand what moral hazard is.  I suggest other readers do some searches on that term before suggesting a no-fault system makes any sense. (I will however assume Angela will not do said searches.)




> Complex epidemiological judgments shouldn't be made by random uneducated jurors. Which is illistrated perfectly by this one single statement:
> 
> "It is a fact that if there was no correlation between the vaccine and the other 74 per cent of the injuries, then they would not have paid compensation."
> 
> That's not how it works.


I'm not seeing any indication you understood my statement.  That is precisely how it "works" - the VICP pays vaccine injured subjects and their families in cases where the vaccine is officially held blameless.
If the vaccine was truly blameless, no compensation would happen.  This is how regular court cases "work".  That is how the entire rest of the world "works".  You don't get money out of Toyota after a court officially rules that your accelerator didn't stick prior to your accident.  You get told to get $#@!ed and you have a gigantic legal bill to deal with to boot.

In Angela world, what possible reason could there be to pay compensation to injured parties after officially declaring that the vaccine had nothing to do with it?  What is your "complex epidemiological judgment" that could lead to such a blatantly illogical conclusion?

Or is your entire argument purely a giant hybrid "you're not an MD on the government dole so you don't get an opinion" appeal-to-authority X no-true-scotsman fallacy?

----------


## Stratovarious

''Vaccines don't kill people, they kill children.''

''We need to kill more children to save children.''

''We need to force you to take your vaccine so we can
find out what's in it.''

----------


## Schifference

It is common procedure for civil suits to be settled out of court.

----------


## donnay

> You are the one constantly calling for government bans and controls.  And the reason I believe in herd immunity is because it's a scientific theory that has been proved repeatedly. (That means over and over.)
> 
> Look - here is Zimmerman's testimony: https://bolenreport.com/wp-content/u...Deposition.pdf
> 
> I know you're not going to comprehend read it, but here's the Cliff Notes version:
> 
>   Dr Zimmerman is pro vaccine and even vaccinates his patients. Dr Zimmerman does not conclude that vaccines cause autism. Dr Zimmerman believes that autism is primarily a genetic disorder.  Zimmerman explains how he continues to vaccinate, even in children with mitochondrial disorders (see: Hanna Poling), as he understands the benefits outweigh the risks. He explains that in his opinion the Yates Hazelhurst medical records show no signs of regression. He asserts that encephalopathy is a separate condition from autism.  He states that mitochondrial autism is not a valid medical term.
> 
> As usual, he didn't reach the conclusions your article attributes to him.






> *The Clear Legal Basis that Vaccines Cause Autism*
> 
> By: J.B. Handley, Jr.
> 
> There are only a few people in the world I believe could end the autism epidemic single-handedly. The director of the CDC would be one, the president of the American Academy of Pediatrics probably another. Dr. Andrew Zimmerman, the former director of medical research at the prestigious Kennedy Krieger Institute at Johns Hopkins University, would be the third.
> 
> For years Dr. Zimmerman served as a go-to expert in vaccine court to dispute parental claims that vaccines caused their childrens autism. And as the reigning national expert on the topic of autism in the scientific community, Dr. Zimmermans opinions held tremendous weight: His written testimony helped deny the claims of the families of more than five thousand children with autism during an Omnibus Autism Proceeding in 2009 in vaccine court, as I will explain in a moment.
> 
> In the late 1990s a young doctor fresh out of medical school joined the Kennedy Krieger Institute in Baltimore as a resident and worked closely with Dr. Zimmerman. His name was Jon Poling. In 2000 Dr. Polings nineteen-month-old daughter, Hannah, experienced a massive regression into autism after her vaccinations, much as happened to my son. Unlike my son, Hannahs parents had access to the most sophisticated autism research center in the world, and Dr. Zimmerman and several of his colleagues, including Dr. Richard Kelley, who was serving as director of Kennedy Kriegers laboratory, tried to figure out what had happened to her, and why.
> ...


http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/cle...s-cause-autism

----------


## Stratovarious

> It is common procedure for civil suits to be settled out of court.


Very common when pharmaceutical company profits are at stake.

----------


## Schifference

> Very common when pharmaceutical company profits are at stake.


Did you read the deposition? https://bolenreport.com/wp-content/u...Deposition.pdf

----------


## donnay

*HHS failed vaccine safety provisions*
http://icandecide.org/government/ICA...-July-2018.pdf

----------


## fisharmor

> It is common procedure for civil suits to be settled out of court.


It is also common knowledge that such settlements are short hand for the accused saying "I recognize that you have a valid enough claim to interrupt my continuance of the action that injured you, and this dollar amount is what I am willing to give you to simply go away and never mention this again."

It is also known as "hush money".

----------


## Stratovarious

> Did you read the deposition? https://bolenreport.com/wp-content/u...Deposition.pdf


 I didn't read the deposition.

----------


## Schifference

> I didn't read the deposition.


I did was a fast 108 pages or so to read. Well worth it.
https://bolenreport.com/wp-content/u...Deposition.pdf

----------


## Stratovarious

> I did was a fast 108 pages or so to read. Well worth it.
> https://bolenreport.com/wp-content/u...Deposition.pdf


I just read 12 or so pages, looks quite interesting , but I do have an allergic reaction to pdfs, ergo
I hate them, I tried to get along with it, but they are way too tedious for me to deal with.

----------


## Schifference

> I just read 12 or so pages, looks quite interesting , but I do have an allergic reaction to pdfs, ergo
> I hate them, I tried to get along with it, but they are way too tedious for me to deal with.


finish reading and give me a report in the morning.

----------


## donnay

*The Vaccination Debate*
http://fullmeasure.news/news/cover-s...ination-debate

----------


## Stratovarious

> finish reading and give me a report in the morning.


I'll finish reading it as soon as someone transcribes it into a standard web page format, but without
the Viagra/Ferrari/Pot/Bail bonds/IRS shield/Debtors Prison/  Adds

----------


## H_H

> Ethyl vs Methyl mercury.  And I haven't looked at the science in the past few years, but the odd thing is that there's no documented side effects of eating fish with high mercury counts.  I know last time this came up the cognitive dissonance made heads explode, but the working theory at the time was that the mercury bonded with the selenium in the fish, so it didn't bond in humans.
> 
> I seem to recall using Japan as the most obvious example.  Their diet is a very high percentage of seafood, yet they're not stupid and deformed.
> 
> This is an example of the government being overly cautious.


Interesting.

This is also a great example of getting down into the weeds.  Which _is_ interesting. And profitable. 

Thanks for for teaching me something new.

----------


## Leaning Libertarian

Although various members deny there is even a "debate" to be had on the issue of vaccine safety, the solution can be found when considering the  "... little known Federal Vaccine court."  Vaccines are either safe and effective and the anti-vax community are people who are either nefarious or misled; or vaccines are neither safe and effective.  A super simple solution is to end this "... little known Federal Vaccine court."  Transfer ALL pending litigation to civil judicial court proceedings.  Why have a "special" court for vaccines?  Any claim against manufacturers will surely be dismissed for lack of evidence, right?  The only potential down side would be IF and only IF vaccines were not safe and effective, then there would be pesky legal matters of discovery and court precedence, that does not exist in such "special" courts.  Herein lies the hypocrisy of vocal and adamant proponents of mandatory vaccinations.  Manufacturers do not want to face the same legal consequence for faulty products as other industry, yet astroturf the heck out of the "safety and efficacy" of the marketed product.

----------


## donnay

> Although various members deny there is even a "debate" to be had on the issue of vaccine safety, the solution can be found when considering the  "... little known Federal Vaccine court."  Vaccines are either safe and effective and the anti-vax community are people who are either nefarious or misled; or vaccines are neither safe and effective.  *A super simple solution is to end this "... little known Federal Vaccine court."*  Transfer ALL pending litigation to civil judicial court proceedings.  Why have a "special" court for vaccines?  Any claim against manufacturers will surely be dismissed for lack of evidence, right?  The only potential down side would be IF and only IF vaccines were not safe and effective, then there would be pesky legal matters of discovery and court precedence, that does not exist in such "special" courts.  Herein lies the hypocrisy of vocal and adamant proponents of mandatory vaccinations.  Manufacturers do not want to face the same legal consequence for faulty products as other industry, yet astroturf the heck out of the "safety and efficacy" of the marketed product.


That's a great idea but how do you suppose we get around the pHARMa lobbyist that pay lots of politicians to do what they want?

Exposing this criminality of the kangaroo court is the only thing to make people more aware of this.  A lot of people have no idea what is going on.

----------


## donnay

> Interesting.
> 
> This is also a great example of getting down into the weeds.  Which _is_ interesting. And profitable. 
> 
> Thanks for for teaching me something new.






> Myth: But the ethyl mercury in Thimerosal is less toxic than the methyl mercury in fish. After all, humans can drink ethyl alcohol even though methyl alcohol is poisonous.
> 
> Fact: The science shows that ethyl mercury is actually more toxic than methyl mercury. While this is a common argument, it is simply untrue. In order to exonerate thimerosal, its defenders sometimes parrot the debunked industry canard that “the ethyl mercury in thimerosal is less persistent in the body and therefore less toxic than methyl mercury in fish.” However, they cannot cite a single published scientific study to support this position. That’s because the science says the opposite. Ethyl mercury is 50 times more toxic than methyl mercury (Guzzi et al, 2012) and twice as persistent in the brain (Burbacher et al, 2005).


https://worldmercuryproject.org/thim...merosal-safety

----------


## Zippyjuan

People still hyping thimerisol more than a decade after it was removed from kids vaccines?

----------


## angelatc

> I'm not sure how you don't understand what moral hazard is.  I suggest other readers do some searches on that term before suggesting a no-fault system makes any sense. (I will however assume Angela will not do said searches.)


I live in a no-fault state.  I love it.  If we have an accident, my insurance pays for my stuff, your insurance pays for yours and the lawyers don't get rich shrieking about whose fault it was.



> I'm not seeing any indication you understood my statement.  That is precisely how it "works" - the VICP pays vaccine injured subjects and their families in cases where the vaccine is officially held blameless.


That's not how it's  supposed to work.  There are known side effects, called Table Injuries.  Those  are automatically paid.  There's also a mechanism called a "causation in fact" which uses a 3-prong mechanism: a medical theory causally connecting the vaccination and the injury; a logical sequence of cause and effect showing that the vaccination was the reason for the injury; and a showing of a proximate temporal relationship between vaccination and injury.





> If the vaccine was truly blameless, no compensation would happen.  This is how regular court cases "work".


  That's like saying no lawyer would ever represent the plaintiff if they knew the claim wasn't true, and neither of those statements are true. The whole reason this system exists is that crying Moms and imperfect kids on the stand played a much bigger role to the juries than actual evidence.  Emotional appeals win over logic every single time, which, not coincidentally, is why liberals rule the world.



> In Angela world, what possible reason could there be to pay compensation to injured parties after officially declaring that the vaccine had nothing to do with it?  What is your "complex epidemiological judgment" that could lead to such a blatantly illogical conclusion?


Strawman.

Or is your entire argument purely a giant hybrid "you're not an MD on the government dole so you don't get an opinion" appeal-to-authority X no-true-scotsman fallacy?[/QUOTE]

Appeal to authority is only a fallacy when the person isn't actually an authority in the subject at hand.  All opinions are not equal.  

And I want to self-righteously point out that in all this noise, nobody has mentioned any rebuttal to my proof that the original post is trash (no surprise there) based on a read of the actual document.

----------


## angelatc

> Although various members deny there is even a "debate" to be had on the issue of vaccine safety, the solution can be found when considering the  "... little known Federal Vaccine court."  Vaccines are either safe and effective and the anti-vax community are people who are either nefarious or misled; or vaccines are neither safe and effective.  A super simple solution is to end this "... little known Federal Vaccine court."  Transfer ALL pending litigation to civil judicial court proceedings.  Why have a "special" court for vaccines?  Any claim against manufacturers will surely be dismissed for lack of evidence, right?  The only potential down side would be IF and only IF vaccines were not safe and effective, then there would be pesky legal matters of discovery and court precedence, that does not exist in such "special" courts.  Herein lies the hypocrisy of vocal and adamant proponents of mandatory vaccinations.  Manufacturers do not want to face the same legal consequence for faulty products as other industry, yet astroturf the heck out of the "safety and efficacy" of the marketed product.



OMFG.  Why do people who claim they've dun ther homewerkz  always the simplest questions there are?  There's never a single iota of original thought.

----------


## angelatc

> https://worldmercuryproject.org/thim...merosal-safety


You literally have no idea what the hell you're posting, do you?

----------


## timosman

Interesting info about the 2018/2019 vaccine - https://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailyme...4f13#section-9




> *The frequency of unsolicited adverse events occurring within 28 days of vaccination was similar in both groups (33% for both FLULAVAL QUADRIVALENT and HAVRIX)*. The unsolicited adverse events that occurred most frequently (≥1% for FLULAVAL QUADRIVALENT) included diarrhea, pyrexia, gastroenteritis, nasopharyngitis, upper respiratory tract infection, varicella, cough, and rhinorrhea. Serious adverse events occurring within 28 days of any vaccination were reported in 0.7% of subjects who received FLULAVAL QUADRIVALENT and in 0.2% of subjects who received HAVRIX.







> The prefilled syringe is formulated without preservatives and does not contain thimerosal. *Each 0.5-mL dose from the multi-dose vial contains 50 mcg thimerosal (<25 mcg mercury); thimerosal, a mercury derivative, is added as a preservative.*

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Interesting info about the 2018/2019 vaccine - https://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailyme...4f13#section-9


From that link:

0.1% reported muscle aches. 
0.4% reported headaches. 
0.1% reported fatigue. 
0.2% reported gastrointestinal symptoms.

----------


## Schifference

Does not a vaccine give the person the virus in a low dose so the body can build antibodies to protect from the full blown virus? Having aches and pains could/should be expected yes?

----------


## donnay

> I live in a no-fault state.  I love it.  If we have an accident, my insurance pays for my stuff, your insurance pays for yours and the lawyers don't get rich shrieking about whose fault it was.
> 
> 
> That's not how it's  supposed to work.  There are known side effects, called Table Injuries.  Those  are automatically paid.  There's also a mechanism called a "causation in fact" which uses a 3-prong mechanism: a medical theory causally connecting the vaccination and the injury; a logical sequence of cause and effect showing that the vaccination was the reason for the injury; and a showing of a proximate temporal relationship between vaccination and injury.
> 
> 
>   That's like saying no lawyer would ever represent the plaintiff if they knew the claim wasn't true, and neither of those statements are true. The whole reason this system exists is that crying Moms and imperfect kids on the stand played a much bigger role to the juries than actual evidence.  Emotional appeals win over logic every single time, which, not coincidentally, is why liberals rule the world.
> 
> 
> ...




Zimmerman rebutted, you just need to pay attention.




> Dr. Zimmerman declined our interview request and referred us to his sworn affidavit. It says: On June 15, 2007, he took aside the Department of Justice—or DOJ lawyers he worked for defending vaccines in vaccine court. He told them that he’d discovered “exceptions in which vaccinations could cause autism.” “I explained that in a subset of children, vaccine induced fever and immune stimulation did cause regressive brain disease with features of autism spectrum disorder.”
> 
> Kennedy: This panicked the two DOJ attorneys and they immediately fired Zimmerman. That was on a Friday and over the weekend they called Zimmerman and said his services would no longer be needed. They wanted to silence him.
> 
> Days after the Department of Justice lawyers fired Dr. Zimmerman as their expert witness, he alleges, they went on to misrepresent his opinion to continue to debunk autism claims. Records show that on June 18, 2007, a DOJ attorney Dr. Zimmerman spoke to told vaccine court, “We know [Dr. Zimmerman’s] views on the issue...There is no scientific basis for a connection” between vaccines and autism. Dr. Zimmerman now calls that “highly misleading.”







> *The Vaccination Debate*
> http://fullmeasure.news/news/cover-s...ination-debate

----------


## donnay

> You literally have no idea what the hell you're posting, do you?


I know exactly what I posted, do you?

----------


## Stratovarious

'No fault' literally means that the parents are 50%  to blame 
for their child's death.
Big Pharma gets a pass to kill more children so they can 
save children.

----------


## Swordsmyth

*Pro-Vaccine  Medical Expert Used by the Federal Government to Debunk the  Vaccine-Autism Link, Says Vaccines Can Cause Autism After All*

----------


## donnay

> *Pro-Vaccine  Medical Expert Used by the Federal Government to Debunk the  Vaccine-Autism Link, Says Vaccines Can Cause Autism After All*


I get that angelatc has a reading comprehension problem, but this has been posted three times in this thread.

----------


## donnay

> 'No fault' literally means that the parents are 50%  to blame 
> for their child's death.
> Big Pharma gets a pass to kill more children so they can 
> save children.


Angelatc thinks the vaccine court is where people get justice.   Big pHARMa gets the protection, not the children or the families.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Angelatc thinks the vaccine court is where people get justice.   Big pHARMa gets the protection, not the children or the families.


And the taxpayers get the bill.

Ain't privatized profits and socialized losses great?

----------


## donnay

> *And the taxpayers get the bill*.
> 
> Ain't privatized profits and socialized losses great?



Exactly, all the while Big pHARMa rakes in the profits--they have blood on their hands.

----------


## Stratovarious

Its a little surprising that legislators that support 'Forced inoculations' and a liability shield  
for big pharma don't share buildings with Planned Parenthood (murderhood') .

----------


## Schifference

What anti-vaxers are failing to acknowledge is that Zimmerman declined to comment and referred to his deposition. In the deposition he states that there is no scientific proof at this time that vaccines cause autism. He goes on to say that progress is being made and new studies are being done. So let us face it at this point in time there is no scientific evidence! He still would administer vaccines to susceptible children according to CDC guidelines! Opinions that there may be a correlation does not make correlation nor does it make scientific proof. Zimmerman was not fired. He was not asked to testify. Read the damn deposition for yourself. I am a slower reader and read the 108 page deposition in around an hour.
https://bolenreport.com/wp-content/u...Deposition.pdf

----------


## Stratovarious



----------


## Schifference

> 


They believe but have no proof. Some people believe in Santa Claus. Do you know what kind of mercury is in fish? "what are you talking about?"

This congressman is talking out his ass.

----------


## Stratovarious

-*Herd* Immunization, when children not immunized start dropping like 
flies, the free market will start sending their children to the needle in h_erds_.
Parents aren't stupid, they don't need to be forced by govt to  save their 
children, lets see a problem before you give us the solution , save your
Hegelian Dialectic for 3rd world s########, they are dumb, amenable,
and easy to h_erd._ 
-*Forced Vaccines* Our children are not wards of the state, the state has
no sincere interest in them, the parents do, parents have the inalienable
right to make decisions for their families, the state does not.
-*Government Shield for Vaccine Profiteers * Our very corrupt govt
provides a protectionist 'fake' court to appease the parents of victims, 
to shut them up, and to prevent court findings from exposing the fact
that death and injury from some vaccines occurs, its a massive fraudulent
cover up.

----------


## Schifference

https://bolenreport.com/wp-content/u...Deposition.pdf

Read page 16 and 17, 22, 28 is enough to get you started.

If you are not willing to actually know what Zimmerman said you should not be spewing BS.

----------


## Stratovarious

> They believe but have no proof. Some people believe in Santa Claus. Do you know what kind of mercury is in fish? "what are you talking about?"
> 
> This congressman is talking out his ass.


Mercury , mmmmmmmm good, yum....
-They have No proof that all vaccines are safe, and warrant mandatory inoculations.
- After fukushima EPA immediately raised the danger threshold to a ridiculous 
number, suddenly RADIATION.........MMMMMM GOOOD _safe_..........YUM

----------


## Schifference

> Mercury , mmmmmmmm good, yum....
> -They have No proof that all vaccines are safe, and warrant mandatory inoculations.
> - After fukushima EPA immediately raised the danger threshold to a ridiculous 
> number, suddenly RADIATION.........MMMMMM GOOOD _safe_..........YUM


Billions of people have received trillions of vaccines. Science needs to prove that vaccines cause harm. 

My only point is you are using hearsay and will not even read the persons deposition that is the basis for this thread.

The video you posted is the equivalent of showing up in small claims court with no evidence and only saying this happened or that happened.

As Angelatc stated, his own testimony debunks the article. If people are too lazy to read it, then they have no business mischaracterizing it. He specifically says he would administer and encourage parents to vaccinate their children even if they were susceptible to vaccines and had mitochondria markers.

If an actual deadly virus was here, you might be first in line for the vaccination.

----------


## Stratovarious

> Billions of people have received trillions of vaccines. Science needs to prove that vaccines cause harm. 
> 
> My only point is you are using hearsay and will not even read the persons deposition that is the basis for this thread.
> 
> The video you posted is the equivalent of showing up in small claims court with no evidence and only saying this happened or that happened.
> 
> As Angelatc stated, his own testimony debunks the article. If people are too lazy to read it, then they have no business mischaracterizing it. He specifically says he would administer and encourage parents to vaccinate their children even if they were susceptible to vaccines and had mitochondria markers.
> 
> If an actual deadly virus was here, you might be first in line for the vaccination.


I see , Mitocondria markers, so yea it is the parents 
fault , they should have known their childrens 
physiology better.

----------


## Schifference

> I see , Michocondria markers, so yea it is the parents 
> fault , they should have known their childrens 
> physiology better.


Done with you. All you do is argue without substance! You can ramble on.

----------


## Stratovarious

> -*Herd* Immunization, when children not immunized start dropping like 
> flies, the free market will start sending their children to the needle in h_erds_.
> Parents aren't stupid, they don't need to be forced by govt to  save their 
> children, lets see a problem before you give us the solution , save your
> Hegelian Dialectic for 3rd world s########, they are dumb, amenable,
> and easy to h_erd._ 
> -*Forced Vaccines* Our children are not wards of the state, the state has
> no sincere interest in them, the parents do, parents have the inalienable
> right to make decisions for their families, the state does not.
> ...





> Mercury , mmmmmmmm good, yum....
> -They have No proof that all vaccines are safe, and warrant mandatory inoculations.
> - After fukushima EPA immediately raised the danger threshold to a ridiculous 
> number, suddenly RADIATION.........MMMMMM GOOOD _safe_..........YUM


''Schifference;6732716]*Done with you. All you do is argue without substance!* You can ramble on''

----------


## Stratovarious

> They believe but have no proof. Some people believe in Santa Claus. Do you know what kind of mercury is in fish? "what are you talking about?"
> Done with you. All you do is argue without substance! You can ramble on.


Substance, wondrous substance from shiffy; ingested mercury , intravenous mercury, same thing?

----------


## donnay

> What anti-vaxers are failing to acknowledge is that Zimmerman declined to comment and referred to his deposition. In the deposition he states that there is no scientific proof at this time that vaccines cause autism. He goes on to say that progress is being made and new studies are being done. So let us face it at this point in time there is no scientific evidence! He still would administer vaccines to susceptible children according to CDC guidelines! Opinions that there may be a correlation does not make correlation nor does it make scientific proof. Zimmerman was not fired. He was not asked to testify. Read the damn deposition for yourself. I am a slower reader and read the 108 page deposition in around an hour.
> https://bolenreport.com/wp-content/u...Deposition.pdf


What you have failed to glean from this Sheryl Atkinson piece is; Zimmerman was fired after he spoke privately to government lawyers.  His practice is now handling many cases of autism.  The deposition is from 2007 and this piece was just done [2018--aired last week].  It is right in the transcripts!




> But now Dr. Zimmerman has provided remarkable new information. He claims that during the vaccine hearings all those years ago, he privately told government lawyers that vaccines can, and did cause autism in some children. That turnabout from the government’s own chief medical expert stood to change everything about the vaccine-autism debate. If the public were to find out.

----------


## Schifference

> What you have failed to glean from this Sheryl Atkinson piece is; Zimmerman was fired after he spoke privately to government lawyers.  His practice is now handling many cases of autism.  The deposition is from 2007 and this piece was just done [2018--aired last week].  It is right in the transcripts!


Read page 2 Nov 9, 2016. There is a difference between being fired and not being asked to testify. Reading the deposition is the only way to know what he said, and what he does in his practice. 

Show me where Dr. Zimmerman has provided remarkable new information. He claims that during the vaccine hearings all those years ago, he privately told government lawyers that vaccines can, and did cause autism in some children. I am not asking for somebody saying or writing what they say he said. Show me an article or interview where he said that. 

Why did he decline interview?

Please read it for yourself. https://bolenreport.com/wp-content/u...Deposition.pdf

----------


## donnay

> They believe but have no proof. Some people believe in Santa Claus. Do you know what kind of mercury is in fish? "what are you talking about?"
> 
> This congressman is talking out his ass.


Already posted:




> *Myth*: But the ethyl mercury in Thimerosal is less toxic than the methyl mercury in fish. After all, humans can drink ethyl alcohol even though methyl alcohol is poisonous.
> 
> *Fact*: The science shows that ethyl mercury is actually more toxic than methyl mercury. While this is a common argument, it is simply untrue. In order to exonerate thimerosal, its defenders sometimes parrot the debunked industry canard that the ethyl mercury in thimerosal is less persistent in the body and therefore less toxic than methyl mercury in fish. However, they cannot cite a single published scientific study to support this position. Thats because the science says the opposite. Ethyl mercury is 50 times more toxic than methyl mercury (Guzzi et al, 2012) and twice as persistent in the brain (Burbacher et al, 2005).


More advance search:
https://childrenshealthdefense.org/?...methyl+mercury

----------


## donnay

> Read page 2 Nov 9, 2016. There is a difference between being fired and not being asked to testify. Reading the deposition is the only way to know what he said, and what he does in his practice. 
> 
> Show me where Dr. Zimmerman has provided remarkable new information. He claims that during the vaccine hearings all those years ago, he privately told government lawyers that vaccines can, and did cause autism in some children. I am not asking for somebody saying or writing what they say he said. Show me an article or interview where he said that. 
> 
> Why did he decline interview?
> 
> Please read it for yourself. https://bolenreport.com/wp-content/u...Deposition.pdf


I read the old 2007 transcripts already.  

The new information:




> Dr. Zimmerman declined our interview request and referred us to *his sworn affidavit*. *It says: On June 15, 2007, he took aside the Department of Justice—or DOJ lawyers he worked for defending vaccines in vaccine court. He told them that he’d discovered “exceptions in which vaccinations could cause autism.” “I explained that in a subset of children, vaccine induced fever and immune stimulation did cause regressive brain disease with features of autism spectrum disorder.”*
> 
> Kennedy: This panicked the two DOJ attorneys and they immediately fired Zimmerman. That was on a Friday and over the weekend they called Zimmerman and said his services would no longer be needed. They wanted to silence him.
> 
> Days after the Department of Justice lawyers fired Dr. Zimmerman as their expert witness, he alleges, they went on to misrepresent his opinion to continue to debunk autism claims. Records show that on June 18, 2007, a DOJ attorney Dr. Zimmerman spoke to told vaccine court, “We know [Dr. Zimmerman’s] views on the issue...There is no scientific basis for a connection” between vaccines and autism. Dr. Zimmerman now calls that “highly misleading.”
> 
> The former DOJ lawyer didn’t return our calls and emails. Kennedy has filed a fraud complaint with the Justice Department Inspector General, who told us they don’t “comment on investigations or potential investigations.”


http://fullmeasure.news/news/cover-s...ination-debate

----------


## Schifference

Read his sworn affidavit from Nov 9,2016. Does he have multiple stances on the issue? Is the newer sworn testimony not credible? https://bolenreport.com/wp-content/u...Deposition.pdf

----------


## donnay

> Read his sworn affidavit from Nov 9,2016. Does he have multiple stances on the issue? Is the newer sworn testimony not credible? https://bolenreport.com/wp-content/u...Deposition.pdf



From the first page of this thread:




>

----------


## Stratovarious

> It's almost like they know *there's a subset of people who are literally too $#@!ing stupid to vaccinate* themselves.





> I'm *not big on mandatory* anything.  But I disagree that the conspiracy noise won't exist in a free society.  
> 
> God, we live in an age where we can literally carry around the sum of the worlds knowledge in our pocket. The fact that there are people so freaking lost in their own echo chambers that they literally think vaccines are evil and disease is good is maddening. I get it - I understand the psychological need to feel superior and wise, but this death of expertise - some world where people consider extensive Google searches the same as a doctorate in biology - that will only serve hasten the end of liberty.
> 
> And lets face it.  They don't actually fact check anything.





> All anti-vaxxers are that stupid.   That's evidenced by the fact that they exist.  If the court system allowed juries of medical professionals to decide verdicts, we would not need to set up a court system that has medical professionals deciding verdicts.





> You are literally hallucinating.  Nobody is advocating for forced vaccines.


-
The first page is almost entirely about 'MANDATE' in your very
first response to a 'mandate' post, you sanction mandate' ,  calling
a certain 'subset too stupid to....' then you say you're not 
'big' on mandates but of course don't say you are against
them, then you go on your mangy rants for several pages about 
how safe and wonderful vaccines..........
why the 'herd' vaccination theme is great, and why we need or 
at least refuse to address why fake courts shielding and hiding
guilt are needed.
'Hallucinations'

----------


## angelatc

> -
> The first page is almost entirely about 'MANDATE' in your very
> first response to a 'mandate' post, you sanction mandate' ,  calling
> a certain 'subset too stupid to....' then you say you're not 
> 'big' on mandates but of course don't say you are against
> them, then you go on your mangy rants for several pages about 
> how safe and wonderful vaccines..........
> why the 'herd' vaccination theme is great, and why we need or 
> at least refuse to address why fake courts shielding and hiding
> ...


Let's try it this way: All of thee things can be true.  Stupid people can be too stupid to vaccinate.  intelligent people can alternate between education techniques and humiliation techniques.  And intelligent people can be anti-mandate.

For example, let me take this statement: " why the 'herd' vaccination theme is great"  For starts, it's "herd immunity" not "herd vaccination."  And I didn't say it was GREAT!  I said it was important.  And I explained why it was important.

If I choose not to attempt to educate, I can assure you the reason is NOT that I don't have the answers. 

Move the conversation forward, maybe I'll talk to you.  Ask stupid questions that have been answered repeatedly, maybe I won't.

----------


## donnay

“_When I was in medical school, we were taught that all of the childhood vaccines lasted a lifetime. This thinking existed for over 70 years. It was not until relatively recently that it was discovered that most of these vaccines lost their effectiveness 2 to 10 years after being given. What this means is that at least half the population, that is the baby boomers, have had no vaccine-induced immunity against any of these diseases for which they had been vaccinated very early in life. In essence, at least 50% or more of the population was unprotected for decades.

If we listen to present-day wisdom, we are all at risk of resurgent massive epidemics should the vaccination rate fall below 95%. Yet, we have all lived for at least 30 to 40 years with 50% or less of the population having vaccine protection. That is, herd immunity has not existed in this country for many decades and no resurgent epidemics have occurred.

Vaccine-induced herd immunity is a lie used to frighten doctors, public-health officials, other medical personnel, and the public into accepting vaccinations_.”

~ Dr. Russell Blaylock MD, a retired neurosurgeon

ETA:

And when the scare tactics don't work, and people start doing their own research and making their own decisions for their children, you get politicians (on Big pHARMa payroll) like Senator Richard Pan in California, making vaccines mandatory with no exemptions.

----------


## Stratovarious

> Let's try it this way: All of thee things can be true.  Stupid people can be too stupid to vaccinate.  intelligent people can alternate between education and humiliation.  And intelligent people can be anti-mandate.
> 
> For example, let me take this statement: " why the 'herd' vaccination theme is great"  For starts, it's "herd immunity" not "herd vaccination."  And I didn't say it was GREAT!  I said it was important.  And I explained why it was important.


OMG everyone knows what 'herd immunity' is, but bless your heart for the grammar-police work, 
nice job.
And thanks for clearing up the difference between great and important, in essence, your 
enthusiasm for herd immunity is just as strong either way.
So what is 'thee' miss mangy vaccine / grammar police lady.....

And why did you not address the fact that your were taking out of your ### when you said 
no one here is for 'mandate' and I was 'hallucinating'' .... have you ever
made money as the 'Christmas Goose' ....

----------


## angelatc

> And why did you not address the fact that your were taking out of your ### when you said 
> no one here is for 'mandate' and I was 'hallucinating'' ...


Read it again.  I opened with it.

----------


## angelatc

> “[I]When I was in medical school, we were taught that all of the childhood vaccines lasted a lifetime. This thinking existed for over 70 years. .


And when science  found out they didn't, they tweaked the schedules. In addition, the vaccines have changed.  We have explained how the scientific process works to you to over and over and over. Yet here you are, angry and confused.

----------


## donnay

> And when science  found out they didn't, they tweaked the schedules. In addition, the vaccines have changed.  We have explained how the scientific process works to you to over and over and over. Yet here you are, angry and confused.


The science funded by whom?  How many times has the HHS done independent safety studies as per their agreement made in 1986?

----------


## Stratovarious

> Read it again.  I opened with it.


That is a bold faced lie, you opened with '...who is for it....' then you went on 
to justify it .
The whole first page, was about mandate, and your justification for, it, so, 
no I wasn't hallucinating. 
-
...I did however just read your 'signature' quote , bravo.

----------


## Swordsmyth



----------


## donnay

*Video Shows What Mercury Does To A Brain Neuron In Just 20 Minutes*
https://www.collective-evolution.com...zen.yandex.com

----------


## Stratovarious

> *Video Shows What Mercury Does To A Brain Neuron In Just 20 Minutes*
> https://www.collective-evolution.com...zen.yandex.com


Plus they (here) tried to pass off mercury in fish as having the same effect as injected mercury , not 
the same, apples and oranges.  ..

----------


## Schifference

> Plus they (here) tried to pass off mercury in fish as having the same effect as injected mercury , not 
> the same, apples and oranges.  ..


Are you saying that the mercury in vaccines has an adverse effect on the brain?

----------


## Stratovarious

> Are you saying that the mercury in vaccines has an adverse effect on the brain?


Did you just say that?

----------


## Schifference

> Did you just say that?


can you answer a direct question?

----------


## Stratovarious

YUS!

----------


## donnay

> Are you saying that the mercury in vaccines has an adverse effect on the brain?





> *The role of mercury in developmental brain damage*
> 
> Mercury also activates microglia and does so in concentrations below 0.5 microgram (3 to 5 nanograms) per gram of wet tissue [113]. This is well below the concentration found in Thimerosal-containing vaccines administered to children. Ethylmercury hydroxide, like its cousin methylmercury hydroxide, enters the brain very easily, but once within the brain it is rapidly de-ethylated, forming tissue-retained inorganic mercury (Hg2+) species [114]. There is evidence that this “inorganic” mercury is significantly more neurotoxic than the organic mercury compounds from which it forms and more difficult to remove. Studies using monkeys demonstrated that ionic mercury is redistributed in the brain [115]. These same series of studies also demonstrated that there was extensive microglial activation in the monkey’s brain that persisted over 6 months after the mercury dosing was stopped. Thus, when the plasma mercury disappears, the brain mercury remains [116].
> 
> The preceding facts are important to remember when vaccine safety promoters tout findings of new studies showing that ethylmercury (in Thimerosal) disappears from the blood within several days. Actually, the mercury leaves the plasma and enters the brain, where it is de-ethylated and, based on human post-mortem research [174], remains with a half-life of about two decades. What is also conveniently hidden are the results of recent studies demonstrating that, within a short time, on average only about 7% of the methylmercury hydroxide administered orally was converted into brain-retained “inorganic” mercury; whereas 34% of the Thimerosal (ethylmercury compound) injected was similarly converted [117]. [Note: The value for “organic” mercury is calculated as the difference between the “total” mercury value and the “inorganic” mercury value based on sub-sample assays from a given homogenized sample. The two mercury assay procedures, “total” and “inorganic” only differ by the severity of the oxidation step used to liberate the mercury species – where the work-up for a “total” mercury determination is done under more severe conditions.] This means that a greater quantity of a more destructive form of mercury is retained in the brain following administration of a Thimerosal-containing vaccine than from the methylmercury compounds present in fish.
> 
> Also consider that the vaccine-based mercury that was removed from the blood, enters the stool in high concentrations. Apparently, because little is excreted in the feces, this mercury can be reabsorbed through the colon, where it recirculates repetitively—meaning that with each cycle the mercury has access to the brain.
> 
> Mercury has another link to this immune/excitotoxic reaction. A number of studies have shown that mercury, in submicromolar concentrations, interferes with the removal of glutamate from the extracellular space, where it causes excitotoxicity [118-120]. This removal system not only plays a very important role in protecting the brain, but also in preventing abnormal alterations in brain formation [121]. As you will recall, it is the carefully programmed rise and fall in glutamate levels in the brain that allow the brain’s pathways to develop and allow for proper development of its connections (called synaptogenesis).
> ...


https://heartmdinstitute.com/health-...n-development/

----------


## Anti Federalist

> 


What the Globalist system plans for the American People

----------


## Swordsmyth

> What the Globalist system plans for the American People


Yup.

----------


## donnay

> *Vaccine Contaminants, Nanotechnology, and Cancer  New Quality-Control Investigations on Vaccines: Micro and Nano-contamination*
> 
> by Dr. Sherri Tenpenny, DO, AOBNMM, ABIHM
> 
> Over the last 17 years, Ive read hundreds of medical journal articles on the problems associated with vaccines. I have written and spoken about vaccine contaminants  stray viruses, aluminum, mercury, polysorbate 80, animal cells, and so on. I have often wondered What else is coming through that needle?
> 
> This article, New Quality-Control Investigations on Vaccines: Micro and Nano-contaminationpublished on January 23, 2017, in the peer-reviewed journal, the International Journal of Vaccines & Vaccination absolutely blew me away.
> 
> Here is a snapshot from this must-read, full-text article:
> ...


https://realfarmacy.com/vaccine-cont...zen.yandex.com

----------


## donnay

> *Bill Gates’ Former Doctor Says Billionaire ‘Refused to Vaccinate His Kids’*
> 
> 7 Feb 2018 – “I don’t know if he had them vaccinated as adults, but I can tell you he point blank refused to vaccinate them as children,” the physician said at a behind closed doors medical symposium in Seattle, adding “They were gorgeous kids, really smart and vivacious, and he said they would be OK as it was, they didn’t need any shots.”
> 
> The comments caused a stir among physicians at the symposium with claims he was breaking doctor-patient confidentiality, according to reports. However as he was speaking to other physicians, he was not breaking the industry code of conduct.
> 
> Gates has three children with his wife Melinda – Jennifer, Rory and Phoebe – born between 1996 and 2002, and according to his former doctor, they are all unvaccinated and healthy.
> 
> The news that Bill Gates does not vaccinate his own children, despite being the world’s most active campaigner for mandatory vaccinations, should come as no surprise. Studies prove that the elite do not vaccinate their children. But at the same time they expect the masses to have their children vaccinated.
> ...


https://realfarmacy.com/bill-gates-f...zen.yandex.com

----------


## Zippyjuan

> https://realfarmacy.com/vaccine-cont...zen.yandex.com


OMG!  Deadly metals! (if the amounts are any threat to health, everybody on the planet should be dead.  How much? (Source is not peer reviewed and will print anything somebody is willing to pay them the $900 to do so). 

http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skept...rnal-bad-data/




> The data presented looks all scary. All these complicated chemical names in a list. Almost all of them are simple metal salts or ions that are common contaminants. Here’s the problem – if dose makes the poison, that is, anything can be a poison or not be a poison, depending on the dose, then what dose are we getting?
> 
> Therein lies the most problematic issue with the data. The numbers are well below the level of biological activity, if these various chemicals even have biological activity (most don’t). For example, the authors found 1569 particles or precipitates in one drop of Cervarix (an anti-HPV vaccine). Sounds horrific right? Except that one drop of vaccine contains around 1.39 X 10^21 individual molecules. *This so called contamination approximately 0.0000000000000000000719% of these so called contaminants*.
> 
> In that Cervarix sample, the researchers found aluminum hydroxide, one of those scary sounding compounds. Let’s say every one of those 1569 particles was aluminum hydroxide, it would mean that around* 0.000000000001 ng of aluminum hydroxide in a vial of vaccine.* That is simply biologically irrelevant. Even if the aluminum hydroxide was found, it’s level is *so low, that the human body wouldn’t notice it. You breathe in more aluminum on a normal day than you would ever find in a vial of vaccine.*
> 
> This is a *ridiculous exercise in scare tactics by the anti-vaccine crowd.* These researchers tried to find contaminants at non-biological levels in an attempt to say “hey, these vaccines are contaminated by junk.” Well they aren’t. Vaccine manufacturers are fastidious in the design and running of their manufacturing plants. But unless you believe in unicorns, which I don’t, there is no to get perfectly “clean” manufacturing.
> 
> Let me put it another way. *If this research is accurate, it tells me that vaccine manufacturing is about as close to “pure” as one can get.* These contaminants are* so low as they are only detectable by the most sensitive pieces of equipment* (if I were to buy into this being a valid method of detecting contaminants). The numbers are so low, that they’re* not even close to being biologically active, and more potent sources for these contaminants can be found in food, water and air.*

----------


## angelatc

Again, she has no idea what she's talking about.  Scaring people away from vaccines  - the only public purpose it serves is to give government an excuse to grow bigger.

----------


## angelatc

> https://realfarmacy.com/bill-gates-f...zen.yandex.com


This is the literal definition of fake news.  There is absolutely no evidence that this ever actually happened.  None.  Zero.The name of the doctor? Nope. The date/time of the event? Nope.  The names of any actual witnesses? Nope. 

So tell me - what homework did you do here? What research provided you enough information to decide this is credible?


ETA: DuckDuckGo tells me that the genesis of the story was "YourNewswire," which was a fake news site with a long history of fabricating stories for clicks..

----------


## donnay

> This is the literal definition of fake news.  There is absolutely no evidence that this ever actually happened.  None.  Zero.The name of the doctor? Nope. The date/time of the event? Nope.  The names of any actual witnesses? Nope. 
> 
> So tell me - what homework did you do here? What research provided you enough information to decide this is credible?
> 
> 
> ETA: DuckDuckGo tells me that the genesis of the story was "YourNewswire," which was a fake news site with a long history of fabricating stories for clicks..


I will concede, I just saw it this morning and posted it without realizing it was from Baxter Dmitry.  

Have you checked out the latest Zimmerman info, or are you still ignoring it?

----------


## angelatc

> I will concede, I just saw it this morning and posted it without realizing it was from Baxter Dmitry.  
> 
> Have you checked out the latest Zimmerman info, or are you still ignoring it?


There is nothing new to add. He isn't available for interviews.

----------


## donnay

> There is nothing new to add. He isn't available for interviews.


It wasn't a interview, it was a sworn affidavit that he gave the DOJ and they misrepresented his testimony to make their case that vaccines do not cause autism--period.

----------


## Schifference

> There is nothing new to add. He isn't available for interviews.


Donnay is basing her presumptions on data from 2007 not his deposition from nearly 10 years later. Zimmerman's opinion is not scientific fact. The deposition is very informative. Zimmerman stated he would still vaccinate children even if they were susceptible. Trillions of vaccinations have inoculated billions of people. There is nothing in life that has no risk.

----------


## RonZeplin

A dream come true for vax loving Big Pharma shill authoritarians?
*
Vaccine Skepticism In Australia Now Punishable By 10 Years In Jail*



*Australian nurses and midwives who dare to speak out against  the dangers of vaccinations on social media or in person will be  prosecuted, the Australian government has warned, urging members of the  public to report vaccine skeptics to the authorities.*

----------


## Stratovarious

> Donnay is basing her presumptions on data from 2007 not his deposition from nearly 10 years later. Zimmerman's opinion is not scientific fact. The deposition is very informative. Zimmerman stated he would still vaccinate children even if they were susceptible. Trillions of vaccinations have inoculated billions of people. There is nothing in life that has no risk.


If its not straight from the mouths of Merck
and Pfizer, or their funded studies, its not Scientific.

----------


## Stratovarious

> A dream come true for vax loving Big Pharma shill authoritarians?
> *
> Vaccine Skepticism In Australia Now Punishable By 10 Years In Jail*
> 
> 
> 
> *Australian nurses and midwives who dare to speak out against  the dangers of vaccinations on social media or in person will be  prosecuted, the Australian government has warned, urging members of the  public to report vaccine skeptics to the authorities.*


Australia knows how to end a debate, lets hope its not communicable.

----------


## Schifference

Alleged Fraud in the Vaccine Court Omnibus Autism Proceedings
Have you heard about the alleged fraud in the Vaccine Court Omnibus Proceedings?

Alleged by who?

Guess?

Alleged Fraud in the Vaccine Court Omnibus Autism Proceedings
Yup. The usual suspects.

The usual suspects are alleging fraud during the in the Vaccine Court Omnibus Proceedings. 
Most folks remember that the Vaccine Court Omnibus Autism Proceedings were a series of cases that were used to test theories that vaccines could contribute to or cause autism.

*The conclusion?

Vaccines are not associated with autism*.

So what’s the problem?

“Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Chairman of Children’s Health Defense (CHD), and Rolf Hazlehurst, parent of a vaccine-injured child, petitioned the Department of Justice (DOJ) Office of Inspector General (OIG), and the Senate and House Judiciary Committees today to investigate actions taken by federal personnel during the “Vaccine Court” Omnibus Autism Proceedings (OAP).”

Kennedy and Hazlehurst claim to have evidence of “obstruction of justice and appallingly consequential fraud by two DOJ lawyers who represented the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) in 2007.”

What evidence?

Kennedy and Hazlehurst claim that “that the leading HHS expert, whose written report was used to deny compensation to over 5,000 petitioners in the OAP, provided clarification to the DOJ lawyers that vaccines could, in fact, cause autism in children with underlying and otherwise benign mitochondrial disorders.”

*Who is this expert?

It is Andrew Zimmerman, MD, a pediatric neurologist.*

There is also a claim that Dr. Zimmerman, along with Dr. Richard Kelley, who was also an expert witness in the Vaccine Court Omnibus Autism Proceedings, served as expert witnesses in a medical malpractice case against a pediatrician who vaccinated a child, supposedly causing him to become autistic.

Which child?

Yates Hazlehurst, who was the second test case in the Vaccine Court Omnibus Proceedings.

Confused?

Dr. Zimmerman settles any fraud issue when he answers this clear question in his deposition in a malpractice against Yates Hazlehurt's pediatrician.
Dr. Zimmerman settles any fraud issue when he answers this clear question in his deposition in a malpractice against Yates Hazlehurt’s pediatrician.
Dr. Zimmerman admits that there is no evidence that vaccines cause autism, but also believes that there are some exceptions, and that vaccines can cause regressive autism in some kids with mitochondrial disorders.

Dr. Zimmerman also clarified that it is not just immunizations, but infections, fever, and other inflammatory responses that can lead to regressive autism.

Dr. Zimmerman clarified that infections can lead to regressive autism too - not just vaccines.
Dr. Zimmerman clarified that infections can lead to regressive autism too – not just vaccines.
And Dr. Zimmerman would have testified to it in the Cedillo case (the first test case in the Vaccine Court Omnibus Proceedings), if he had been allowed to.

Except that upon review of the Cedillo case, Dr. Zimmerman had concluded that “there is no evidence of an association between autism and the alleged reaction to MMR and Hg, and it is more likely than not, that there is a genetic basis for autism in this child.”

*Apparently, he had changed his mind later, even though he continues to say that all evidence points to the fact that vaccines don’t cause autism.
*
“Dr. Zimmerman subsequently submitted a second expert opinion on behalf of Hannah Poling, which in effect states that she suffers autism as a result of a vaccine injury. The same government officials, who submitted and relied upon Dr. Zimmerman’s first expert opinion as evidence in the O.A.P., secretly conceded the case of Hannah Poling and placed it under seal so that the evidence in the case could not be used in the O.A.P. or known by the public.”

Memorandum Regarding Misconduct By The United States Department Of Justice And The United States Department Of Health And Human Services During The Omnibus Autism Proceeding As To The Expert Opinions Of Dr. Andrew Zimmerman

But what about the “second expert opinion” from Dr. Zimmerman?

Zimmerman deposition on Hannah Poling.
*According to Poling’s mother, “Dr. Zimmerman was not an expert nor was he asked to be an expert on Poling’s case. The government conceded her case before ANY opinion was rendered or given.”
*
What about Dr. Richard Kelley?

“As noted above, an important consideration for treatment of AMD is that “normal” inflammation can impair mitochondrial function. Although most infections cannot be avoided, certain measures can limit the risk of injury during infection or other causes of inflammation… We believe it is much better to immunize with DTaP than risk infection with highly inflammatory and potentially damaging community-acquired pertussis.”

Dr. Richard Kelley on Evaluation and Treatment of Patients with Autism and Mitochondrial Disease

While he seems to believe that vaccines can trigger regressive autism in some kids with mitochondrial disease, he admits that other kinds of inflammation can do it too, including vaccine-preventable diseases.

“We believe it is much better to immunize with DTaP than risk infection with highly inflammatory and potentially damaging community-acquired pertussis.”

Andrew Zimmerman

*And again, so does Dr. Zimmerman, to the point that in many cases, he thinks that even kids with mitochondrial disorders should be vaccinated.*

*“…the MMR vaccine has been temporally associated, if rarely, with regressions — with regression in AMD and other mitochondrial disease when given in the second year. Doubtless some of these regressions are coincidental, since the usual age for giving the MMR falls within the typical window of vulnerability for AMD regression.”
*
Andrew Zimmerman

If rarely associated…

Coincidental…

That doesn’t sound very convincing.

Although a lot of Dr. Zimmerman’s deposition makes it into J.B. Handley’s new autism book, *what’s missing is that there were many other experts that testified against the idea that vaccines could be associated with autism during the Vaccine Court Omnibus Proceedings and that their testimony and their reports were relied upon more than Zimmerman’s.
*
“The undersigned has reviewed and considered the filed reports from these experts and finds that the opinions of the experts lend support to the conclusions reached in this decision. In reaching the conclusions set forth in this decision, however, the undersigned relies more heavily on the testimony and reports of the experts who were observed and heard during the hearings.”

Hazlehurst v. Secretary of HHS

*So where is the fraud in the Vaccine Court Omnibus Proceedings?
*
Is it that the Poling case files have been kept under seal and hidden from public view?

*“Finally, and perhaps for purposes of Rolf’s request that Poling’s records be released to the public, Jon and I have not allowed the release of Hxxxx’s records nor will we ever willingly allow third parties to tear apart her medical history which includes other close family members as well as things that should have never been in the record to begin with.”

Terry Poling*

*While we should all care about fraud in our court system, we should all also care about folks who push misinformation about vaccines and try to scare parents away from vaccinating and protecting their kids, especially when they use autistic kids to do it.*

*Don’t believe them.*

*It is telling that Dr. Zimmerman, the hero in this story, discredits the other heroes of the anti-vaccine movement, from the Geiers to Andrew Wakefield.

“I do think that — that there was much information — misinformation brought about by Dr. Wakefield and it’s — this has set the field back. I think that — that we — we have worked very hard to try to reassure the public  and I agree with doing that because I am very supportive of vaccinations, immunizations in general.”

Andrew Zimmerman
*
*While Dr. Zimmerman truly believes that future research might find a way to identify a very small subset of kids with mitochondrial disorders that worsen after they get their vaccines (or infections or other types of inflammation), this doesn’t apply to the great majority of autistic kids or even the great majority of kids with regressive autism.
*
Different answers to a very similar question? They are from different lawyers in the Zimmerman deposition...
Different answers to a very similar question? They are from different lawyers in the Zimmerman deposition…
*Even Dr. Zimmerman only seems to speak of an “uncommon relationship” that “is not evident in studies that have been done to date.”
*
*And none of the researchers he mentions, including Richard Frye, Shannon Rose, Joe (Jill?) James, or Dmitriy Niyazov seem to have actually studied vaccines, only possible relationships between autism and mitochondrial conditions.
*
“The claims by RFK Jr. and Handley draw on something that was not, in fact, a fraud, that is misrepresented as having a dramatic impact on the Omnibus Autism Proceedings when it had little to no effect.”

Plus ça change – anti-vaccine activists revive the Hannah Poling case

*So there is nothing really new here.
*
And while it might be news to folks like Bob Sears, *vaccines are safe and necessary and still don’t cause autism.*

https://vaxopedia.org/2018/10/18/all...m-proceedings/

----------


## Swordsmyth

> A dream come true for vax loving Big Pharma shill authoritarians?
> *
> Vaccine Skepticism In Australia Now Punishable By 10 Years In Jail*
> 
> 
> 
> *Australian nurses and midwives who dare to speak out against  the dangers of vaccinations on social media or in person will be  prosecuted, the Australian government has warned, urging members of the  public to report vaccine skeptics to the authorities.*


Because the truth always needs armed government workers on its side.

Just like it always needs its own special court system and taxpayer backing for any liabilities.

----------


## Swordsmyth

In July 2018 we published the analyzes, here: "*Vaccinegate: 5 out of 7 vaccines analyzed are not compliant*" (https://goo.gl/ANHozN and https://goo.gl/n6tQDn), but we had not finished.
 Briefly summarizing the previous analyzes, mutations in the genome of  the viruses and absurd quantities of DNA were just some of the issues  we detected. As always, we restricted ourselves to the disclosure of the  data, without speculating on the real implications, each document was  sent to the EMA, AIFA, ISS and political groups to ask for clarity.
 We continued the investigation, both chemical and biological, on  Priorix Tetra, quadrivalent against measles, rubella, mumps and  varicella.
 The expansion of the chemical/proteins analyzes is available here: "*Vaccinegate: First results on the chemical composition profile Priorix Tetra*" (https://goo.gl/nUSZYG),  where the presence of many signals, traces of compounds (non-residual  contaminants) have been certified, that the laboratories had  approximately matched. We are talking about traces that were probably  associated with the anti-epileptic Vigabatrin, an experimental anti-HIV  drug, antibiotics, herbicides, acaricides, morphine metabolites, the  famous Sildenafil (Viagra), the antiepileptic Gabapentin and the  anti-malarial Atovaquone and many more. It was clear that there were  substantial differences between the two lots analyzed.
 For the sake of completeness, we also report that the previous  findings of the biological / metagenomic analyzes of July (1st step)  determined that the analyzed samples of “Priorix Tetra" vaccine, present  a mutant virus population for each attenuated virus called  quasispecies. The genetic variants of the vaccine antigens could  significantly alter both the safety of the vaccine and its  effectiveness.
 Today we are publishing the report of the second biological /  metagenomic analysis on Priorix Tetra; as you will see they pose a  serious dilemma not only medical and scientific, but also ethical. Below  we list the points that are most relevant to us:
 It has been confirmed (as emerged in the previous phase) the presence  of fetal DNA in large quantities, 1.7 μg in the first batch and 3.7 μg  in the second batch, about 325 times higher than the maximum limit of 10  nanograms and 325,000 times higher than the minimum limit of 10  picograms , limits that Ema has told us to refer only to cells that are  known for their carcinogenic activity. According to what they wrote, the  fetal cells of the 60s, used for the production of these vaccines,  would not be carcinogenic because "used for decades". We believe more  investigations are needed on this point, there are indeed some studies  that seriously question the absence of carcinogenicity of these lines.
 We then more accurately ascertained the molecular dimensions of the  detected DNA and compared to the previous analyzes it was found that the  contained DNA has a molecular weight of 20,000 / 60,000 bp. This  basically means that there are no fragments of DNA inside this drug, but  whole strands, with the presence of an entire genome.
 We have also confirmed that there is no presence of the rubella virus  genome in the first batch and in the second batch; using a much more  sensitive detection, we have found it in 3 reads, equal to 0.00008% of  the total RNA viruses.
_Note: the reads are copies of viruses. For example, the viruses  in this vaccine are about 5% of the total DNA, equivalent to about  500,000 reads. The measles virus about 850 reads, equals to 0.008%. The  more you go down with the reads and the percentage, the more the  quantities decrease._
*Keep this in mind, because it is essential.* 
*Can 3 reads, equal to 0.00008% of the total RNA viruses, create immunization?* If so, then a very serious problem opens up on what you read below.
 Within the same vaccine, traces have also been detected to an even  greater but still very small extent, of numerous adventitious viruses.  But also something else.
*Within the GlaxoSmithKline Priorix Tetra vaccine,  Proteobacteria, Platyhelminthes worms and Nematoda, 10 more ssRNA  viruses, Microviridae (bacterial viruses or phage) and numerous  retroviruses including endogenous human and avian retroviruses, avian  viruses, human immunodeficiency virus and immunodeficiency virus of  monkeys (fragments that if inserted into the database turn out to be  fragments of HIV and SIV), murine virus, horse infectious anemia virus,  lymphoproliferative disease virus, Rous sarcoma virus. Other viruses  like alphaendornavirus and hepatitis b virus, yeast virus.* 
 We repeat to better express the concept and we are begging you all to  use our results very carefully: within Priorix Tetra vaccine the  presence of the rubella virus has not been detected, except in one  batch, but the quantity was so little as to make questionable it may  give immunization. Instead  if we consider that this vaccine is  effective against Rubella, because 3 reads equal to 0.00008% of the  total Rna are sufficient enough to determine a reaction in the organism,  then this also applies to a long series of tumorigenic viruses, HIV,  worms and bacteria, present in quantities equal to or greater than the  Rubella virus.
 Basically, we had to go very deep to trace Rubella virus (in order to  prove the presence), using a high sensitivity method. This led us to  also come across dozens of viruses and retroviruses, some potentially  carcinogens, fungi, yeasts, bacteria.
 Whatever the answer about the amounts, it is certain that there  should be none; this again shows that there is NO adequate control over  the vaccines otherwise these elements would be detected.
 What follows are the EMA guidelines which state that the "foreign"  virus reads must be ABSENT which means that not even 1 single unit is  allowed.

https://www.ema.europa.eu/documents/...-origin_en.pdfhttps://www.ema.europa.eu/documents/...roducts_en.pdfhttps://www.ema.europa.eu/documents/...-step-5_en.pdf
 *Download: CORVELVA-Metagenomic-analysis-report-on-Priorix-Tetra.pdf*


*Related Articles:*

Vaccinegate:  Initial results on Infanrix Hexa chemical compositionVaccinegate:  Initial results on Infanrix Hexa chemical compositionVaccinegate: 5 of 7 vaccines analyzed are not compliantVaccinegate: 5 of 7 vaccines analyzed are not compliantVaccinegate: Analysis Methods pre-disclosureVaccinegate: Analysis Methods pre-disclosureVaccinegate:  Initial results on Priorix Tetra chemical compositionVaccinegate:  Initial results on Priorix Tetra chemical composition
 Translated by team CLiVa - www.clivatoscana.com



https://www.corvelva.it/speciali-cor...ep-update.html

----------


## Firestarter

> Dr. Zimmerman admits that there is no evidence that vaccines cause autism, but also believes that there are some exceptions, and that vaccines can cause regressive autism in some kids with mitochondrial disorders.


 Have you missed the following statistically significant relationship?

In 2017, Brian Hooker wrote a letter to complain on the blatant manipulation of a report to hide the statistically significant relationship between autism in children and the prenatal flu shot given in the first trimester of pregnancy.



Despite suppressing evidence by the CDC that vaccines cause autism, more than 80 independent studies show a correlation between (the toxics mercury and thimerosal in) vaccines and autism: https://worldmercuryproject.org/wp-c...cts-4.2.18.pdf

----------


## Firestarter

I guess I won't be able to end the debate...


In August 2014, CDC senior vaccine safety scientist, William Thompson, blew the whistle on a study, which showed that black boys got autistic because of the MMR vaccine, a 250% increase in autism diagnoses for black boys.
A high CDC official, Frank DeStefano, ordered Thompson and his team to destroy that data in a large garbage can and omit the damning findings from the published study. That (censored) study forms the cornerstone of the CDC's orthodoxy that vaccines don't cause autism.

Staff level scientists,



> are intimidated and pressed to do things they know are not right," and that, "Senior management officials at CDC are clearly aware and even condone these behaviors.
> (…)
> questionable and unethical practices, occurring at all levels and in all of our respective units, threaten to undermine our credibility and reputation as a trusted leader in public health.


https://www.ecowatch.com/cdc-corrupt...096438139.html
(archived here: http://archive.li/Ksydy)


Brian S. Hooker wrote the report of the (real) findings after getting raw data on the study. This report was retracted for some reason (but is still on the internet)…



> When comparing cases and controls receiving their first MMR vaccine before and after 36 months of age, there was a statistically significant increase in autism cases specifically among African American males who received the first MMR prior to 36 months of age.
> (…)
> The relationship between the MMR vaccine and autism was first hypothesized by Wakefield et al. [7] in 1999 after the observation of a regressive phenotype of autism that appeared in general after the administration of the first MMR vaccine. Although several studies have affirmed such a relationship between the MMR vaccine and neurodevelopmental disorders including autism [8, 9], many other studies purport no statistical relationship between the MMR vaccine and autism incidence.
> (…)
> Within this study, the age at the first MMR vaccine was assessed as a factor in the incidence of autism. Using conditional logistic regression, with first MMR age as the independent variable and autism incidence as the dependent variable, the study authors assessed relative risk for obtaining an autism diagnosis for those children receiving the first MMR vaccine before and after 18 months, 24 months and 36 months of age. Destefano et al. [14] found a statistically significant relative risk of 1.49 (95% confidence interval [CI]: 1.04 – 2.14) at the 36 month cut-off (i.e., in a comparison of children receiving the MMR before versus after 36 months). Rather than concluding that the first MMR vaccine could be playing a causal role in autism in these children, the study authors instead attributed the increased risk to greater numbers of autistic children receiving timely vaccinations in order to participate in State of Georgia special education services.
> (…)
> When looking specifically at African American children (Table 2), the relationship between MMR timing and autism incidence became more profound (RR = 2.30, 95% CI: 1.25-4.22, p = 0.0060) at 36 months of age. Again, this result was exclusively found in boys who showed statistically significant effects at both 24 months (RR = 1.73, 95% CI: 1.09-2.77, p = 0.0200) and 36 months (RR = 3.36, 95% CI: 1.50-7.51, p = 0.0019) of age. This effect again was not seen in females.
> 
> (…)
> ...


*Brian S. Hooker – Measles-mumps-rubella vaccination timing and autism among young African american boys: a reanalysis of CDC data (2014): https://translationalneurodegenerati...2047-9158-3-16*
(archived here: http://archive.fo/Z7F4B)

----------


## Schifference

> Have you missed the following statistically significant relationship?
> 
> In 2017, Brian Hooker wrote a letter to complain on the blatant manipulation of a report to hide the statistically significant relationship between autism in children and the prenatal flu shot given in the first trimester of pregnancy.
> 
> 
> 
> Despite suppressing evidence by the CDC that vaccines cause autism, more than 80 independent studies show a correlation between (the toxics mercury and thimerosal in) vaccines and autism: https://worldmercuryproject.org/wp-c...cts-4.2.18.pdf


I am not well versed on the subject matter and am no scientist. The only reason for my input was to note that Zimmerman gave a full deposition that can be view in its entirety. Zimmerman's own testimony debunks the original post where they used Zimmerman as the authority on the subject. 

Years ago I thought it was hypocritical when a church would debunk science yet mention how science proves xyz when it suits their propaganda. 

Bottom line Zimmerman still to this day administers and encourages people to vaccinate children even if they are susceptible to having issues associated with vaccines. The methods in which autism is now diagnosed has changed making more people fall into the autistic category. 

The article in the OP was written on a false premise that Zimmerman does not agree with. 

I can only speculate that trillions of vaccines have been administered to billions of people. Diseases/major epidemics have been eradicated because of vaccines. I could care less if you or any person takes a vaccine. *I am against forced vaccination.* I believe if a truly deadly virus was wiping out masses of the population and a vaccine was offered that would protect people from dying, most antivaxers would get the vaccine rather than face death. If there were a door and on this side everyone was not sick and on the other the majority of the population was infected, my guess is people going from one side to the other would choose to have the vaccination.

----------


## Firestarter

> I can only speculate that trillions of vaccines have been administered to billions of people. Diseases/major epidemics have been eradicated because of vaccines. I could care less if you or any person takes a vaccine. I am against forced vaccination. I believe if a truly deadly virus was wiping out masses of the population and a vaccine was offered that would protect people from dying, most antivaxers would get the vaccine rather than face death. If there were a door and on this side everyone was not sick and on the other the majority of the population was infected, my guess is people going from one side to the other would choose to have the vaccination.


 I have investigated vaccines and haven't found any evidence that they actually prevent disease.
As far as I can tell the main cause for a decrease in disease is better nutrition (I'm not sure that diseases are actually decreasing though). I'm afraid that I usually ignore the threads on food by @donnay...

I HAVE found evidence that pesticides cause disease though but nobody seems able to figure out that maybe something is wrong with all of the poisons we throw in our living environment.
Relatively a short while ago I read a story (probably posted by Donnay) that the teflon in pans causes cancer and other adverse effects. What kind of psychopaths put cancer causing toxics in cooking pans?

Cancer rates keep increasing.
More and more innocent people are sentenced to a mental disorder. Lately the al-knowing DSM decided that "masculinity" must be labelled a psychiatric disorder.

----------


## Schifference

Smallpox
Synonyms	Variola,[1] variola vera,[2] pox,[3] red plague[4]
Child with Smallpox Bangladesh.jpg
A child with smallpox in Bangladesh in 1973. Note the characteristic bumps filled with thick fluid and a depression or dimple in the center.
Specialty	Infectious disease
Symptoms	
Early: Fever, vomiting, mouth sores[5]
Later: Fluid filled blisters which scab over[5]
Complications	Scarring of the skin, blindness[6]
Usual onset	1 to 3 weeks following exposure[5]
Duration	About 4 weeks[5]
Causes	Variola major, Variola minor (spread between people)[6][7]
Diagnostic method	Based on symptoms and confirmed by PCR[8]
Differential diagnosis	Chickenpox, impetigo, molluscum contagiosum, monkeypox[8]
Prevention	Smallpox vaccine[9]
Treatment	Supportive care[10]
Prognosis	30% risk of death[5]
Frequency	Eradicated (last case in 1977)
Smallpox was an infectious disease caused by one of two virus variants, variola major and variola minor.[7] The last naturally occurring case was diagnosed in October 1977 and the World Health Organization (WHO) certified the global eradication of the disease in 1980.[10] The risk of death following contracting the disease was about 30%, with higher rates among babies.[6][11] Often those who survived had extensive scarring of their skin and some were left blind.[6]

The initial symptoms of the disease included fever and vomiting.[5] This was followed by formation of sores in the mouth and a skin rash.[5] Over a number of days the skin rash turned into characteristic fluid filled bumps with a dent in the center.[5] The bumps then scabbed over and fell off leaving scars.[5] The disease used to spread between people or via contaminated objects.[6][12]* Prevention was by the smallpox vaccine.*[9] Once the disease had developed certain antiviral medication may have helped.[9]

The origin of smallpox is unknown.[13] The earliest evidence of the disease dates back to the 3rd century BCE in Egyptian mummies.[13] The disease historically occurred in outbreaks.[10] In 18th century Europe it is estimated 400,000 people per year died from the disease, and one-third of the cases resulted in blindness.[10][14] These deaths included those of four reigning monarchs and a queen consort.[10][14] In the 20th century it is estimated that smallpox resulted in 300–500 million deaths.[12][15][16][17] As recently as 1967, 15 million cases occurred a year.[10]

*Edward Jenner discovered in 1798 that vaccination could prevent smallpox.[10] In 1967, the WHO intensified efforts to eliminate the disease.[10] Smallpox is one of two infectious diseases to have been eradicated, the other being rinderpest in 2011.[18][19]* The term "smallpox" was first used in Britain in the 15th century to distinguish the disease from syphilis, which was then known as the "great pox".[20] Other historical names for the disease include pox, speckled monster, and red plague.[3][4][20]

----------


## donnay

https://globalfreedommovement.org/5-...ls-suppressed/

----------


## Zippyjuan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Henry_Tilden




> Tilden's claims that all diseases are the result of "toxaemia" are regarded as quackery by medical experts. He was described as a food faddist and quack by the American Medical Association.[6]
> 
> Harriet A. Hall has written that:
> 
> "Tilden did no experiments. He “thought” about disease and came up with a hypothesis: enervating habits allow toxic metabolic waste products to accumulate in the body, and this is the one cause of all disease. Then he proceeded to advise people about health without doing any kind of testing to determine whether his hypothesis was true or false, or whether following his recommendations really made a difference. It is all speculation, and the facts it is based on are largely pre-scientific errors and distortions. It was not entirely unreasonable for him to think that way in 1926, but his ideas have been completely superseded by 8 decades of advances in microbiology, genetics, histology, immunology, physiology, and other disciplines."[7]

----------


## Schifference

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Henry_Tilden


I know some people on an online forum that might be related to this quack.

----------


## donnay

> John H. Tilden (1851-1940) With his theory of toxemia, or infectious bacteria, John Tilden recognized the role of stress in causing disease long before this became an accepted idea. Tilden practiced medicine for years before losing faith in drugs and searching for a new understanding of disease. He observed that health is impaired when a person's nervous energy becomes dissipated and the body is no longer able to properly eliminate the toxic by-products of metabolism. The resulting state of self-intoxication, or toxemia, was regarded by Tilden as the single underlying cause of impaired health. He considered individual diseases to be nature's cleansing efforts, or crises of toxemia. According to Tilden, nervous energy could become toxic by eating the wrong foods, by overeating, by taking too many stimulants such as coffee and alcohol, and by other sources of stress such as emotional and mental strains. Tilden opened a school in Denver, Colorado, next to a sanatorium that attracted patients from all over the world. Treatment began with a fast. Tilden gave his patients diets tailored to their individual needs. He was a strict disciplinarian who wasted no time on those who would not relinquish degenerative habits. Tilden also wrote between three and seven o'clock almost every morning. He published a monthly magazine called Philosophy of Health, which was later renamed Health Review and Critique, and he refused all advertising in his magazine. Tilden was an important influence on Henry Bieler, author of the highly popular book Food Is Your Best Medicine  1. ]


http://www.whale.to/vaccines/tilden.html

----------


## donnay

"Let thy food be thy medicine and thy medicine be thy food." - Hippocrates




> *Doctors Are Leading a Quiet Revolution in Nutrition Education*
> 
> *A systematic study* by a group of 125 leading researchers who call themselves the U.S. Burden of Disease Collaborators shows that diet is the leading cause of both death and disability in the United States (U.S.). Meanwhile, only 12 percent of visits to doctors’ offices include counseling about diet, according to research by the U.S. Office of Disease Prevention and Health Promotion.
> 
> Even in young populations, nutrition-related health conditions are highly prevalent, according to the U.S. National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS). Cardiovascular disease, diabetes, obesity, hypertension, and many cancers are linked to diet and are together called non-communicable diseases (NCDs). NCDs are the highest cause of adult mortality in the U.S. and account for 70 percent of premature deaths globally, according to the World Health Organization (WHO). Because NCDs are in large part caused by food or lifestyle choices, the WHO argues that “most premature NCD deaths are preventable.”
> 
> While more than 70 percent of both men and women in the U.S. are overweight or obese, according to the U.S. NCHS, a national survey by the University of Chicago reports that 60 percent are trying to lose weight. In total, MarketData Enterprises reports that Americans spend US$ 66 billion annually on diets and diet aids.
> 
>  Unfortunately, while 94 percent of physicians feel that nutrition is important, only 14 percent feel comfortable talking about it, according to the U.S. Office of Disease Prevention and Health Promotion. Even among high-risk patients with CVD, diabetes, or hyperlipidemia, only 1 in 5 receive nutrition counseling.
> ...


https://foodtank.com/news/2017/12/he...-healthy-life/

----------


## Working Poor

I will not have another vaccine for any reason. I don't care what so called science says. I will never forget how my body felt after my last vaccine. It took almost 2 years for me to get well never again.

----------


## Firestarter

> *Prevention was by the smallpox vaccine.[9] Once the disease had developed certain antiviral medication may have helped.[9]*


 The problem with your "evidence", what looks like a copy-paste post, is that there isn´t any actual "proof"...





> *Edward Jenner discovered in 1798 that vaccination could prevent smallpox.[10] In 1967, the WHO intensified efforts to eliminate the disease.[10] Smallpox is one of two infectious diseases to have been eradicated, the other being rinderpest in 2011.[18][19]* The term "smallpox" was first used in Britain in the 15th century to distinguish the disease from syphilis, which was then known as the "great pox".[20] Other historical names for the disease include pox, speckled monster, and red plague.[3][4][20]


Edward Jenner is the legendary “scientist”, who has been credited with proving the wonderful benefits of vaccination: 


> In 1796, Jenner enlisted a milkmaid named Sarah Nelmes and an eight-year old boy named James Phipps to test his theory. Jenner transferred pus from Nelmes’s cowpox blisters onto incisions he’d made in Phipps’s hands. The boy came down with a slight fever, but nothing more. Later, Jenner gave Phipps a standard smallpox inoculation – which should have resulted in a full-blown, albeit mild, case of the disease. Nothing happened. Jenner tried inoculating Phipps with smallpox once more; again, nothing.


In 1798 Jenner published his results, claiming lifelong protection against smallpox using “vaccines”. Some doctors of the time challenged this myth, because they had seen smallpox follow cowpox.
In 1799, Mr. Drake vaccinated some children with cowpox matter obtained from Edward Jenner. The children were then tested by being inoculated with smallpox; all of them developed smallpox. Jenner received the report, but ignored the results.
Vaccination was quickly embraced by the medical esteblishment. By 1801, an estimated 100,000 people had already been vaccinated in England with the belief that it would produce lifelong protection.
Early reports indicated that there were cases of people who were vaccinated, and then developed cowpox - and some still died of smallpox.

In 1818 Thomas Brown, a surgeon with 30 years of experience in Scotland, published an article discussing his experience with vaccination. He stated that after vaccinating 1,200 people, he became disappointed. He saw that, after vaccination, people could still contract and even die from smallpox.
Because arm-to-arm vaccination was used, other diseases could spread causing epidemics, including tuberculosis and syphilis.

Then in one of those great examples of science, the medical profession no longer claimed lifelong protection against smallpox from a single vaccination. Instead, revaccination had to be performed anywhere from yearly to every 10 years.
As it became increasingly clear throughout the 1800s that vaccination was not what it was promised to be, refusals increased. To solve this “problem”, in 1855 Massachusetts created a set of comprehensive laws to provide for widespread vaccination.

Data from Boston that begins in 1811 shows that, from 1837 on, there were periodic smallpox epidemics. After 1855, there were smallpox epidemics in 1859-60, 1864-65, and 1867 and the infamous epidemic in 1872-73. This was the most severe smallpox epidemic since the introduction of vaccination.
These repeated smallpox epidemics showed that the vaccination laws instituted by Massachusetts in 1855 had no positive effect at all. More people died in the 20 years after the Massachusetts vaccination compulsory laws than in the 20 years before.


Original article was deleted: http://archive.is/MytAK


I don’t think I’m the only one to find this is a reason to never take a vaccine, but the inventor of vaccines, Edward Jenner, joined the masonic _Royal Berkeley Lodge of Faith and Friendship_ on 30 December 1802.
Jenner even became “Worshipful Master” of this lodge in 1812 and 1813.
Edward Jenner attended his last lodge meeting on 4 July 1822, 6 months before his death.

Jenner was born in a family of freemasons. Edward’s nephew, Henry Jenner, was Master for the first 2 years of the Lodge and later Provincial Grand Master for Bristol. Edward’s son, Robert F. Jenner, was Master of the Lodge in 1827, 1828, 1847 and 1848. Another of Edward’s nephews, Rev. G.C. Jenner, was Lodge Secretary and Provincial Grand Chaplain for Bristol: http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/.../jenner_e.html
(archived here: http://archive.is/a3zOO)


Edward Jenner was elected a Fellow of the Royal Society in 1789, for his research on the nesting habits of the cuckoo.
His lodge was regularly visited by the Prince of Wales – George IV: http://www.freemasonrytoday.com/more...al-philosopher
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


*McBean – Poisoned needle*
Here's an (historic) book on vaccines, published in 1957. The book shows that 60 years ago the anti-vaxxer movement mostly used the same, still valid arguments as in 2018.
I agree with most of the book, but some of the conclusions go too far for me. In particular I disagree with “fasting” for a health treatment and the section on cancer…

Other than general believe, it isn’t the freemason Edward Jenner, who bought his “Doctor” title for a mere 15 pounds, that invented vaccines.
Dhanwantari, the earliest known Hindu physician, who lived about 1,500 BC, is reportedly the first to practice inoculation for smallpox. It has been claimed that the ancient Hindus even employed a vaccine, by the transmission of the smallpox virus through a cow.
Even if the Hindu medical malpractices aren’t considered to be vaccines, the farmer Benjamin Jesty, years before Jenner’s first inoculation, discovered cow-pox inoculation. After Jesty, came teacher Plett, and another farmer Jensen, who were experimented with cow-pox vaccination – all 4 before Jenner…

_Chapter 1_
The following diseases increased “in the past 70 years” (that’s from 1887-1957).



> Insanity increased 400%
> Cancer increased 308%
> Anemia increased 300%
> Epilepsy increased 397%
> Bright’s Disease increased 65%
> Heart Disease increased 179%
> Diabetes increased 1800% (In spite of or because of insulin)
> Polio increased 680%


Most of these diseases have continued to increase in the following (past) 70 years (from 1957-2017)...

_Chapter 2_
In 1902 when vaccination was endorsed by the majority, the death-rate from smallpox was 2,121. By 1910, vaccination disasters had caused it to lose favour to such an extent that the smallpox death-rate dropped to 202.
The pharmaceutical industry worked up a nationwide vaccination campaign that raised the smallpox death-rate to 358 (1919) and 642 (1921).
When the people noticed that the vaccinated were the ones who suffered most from smallpox and flu, they lost faith and by 1927 the deaths had dropped to 138 where it has been fluctuating since.

Although in 1929 the League of Nations reported India as the greatest centre of smallpox in the world, it has improved since gaining its freedom from Britain and relaxing its vaccination enforcement program.


France had rejected immunisation after the previous disasters, but was pressured into submitting to it after German occupation. By 1941 most of the French children had been inoculated after which the diphtheria incidence rose to 13,795 by the end of that year. By 1943, diphtheria had increased to 46,750.

_Chapter 4_
From the report of Dr. William Farr, Compiler of Statistics of the Registrar-General, London:



> Smallpox attained its maximum mortality after vaccination was introduced…..The mean annual (smallpox) mortality to 10,000 population from 1850 to 1869 was at the rate of (only) 2.04, whereas (after compulsory vaccination) in 1871 the death rate was 10.24 and in 1872 the death rate was 8.33, and this after the most laudable efforts to extend vaccination by legislative enactments.


Re-vaccination experiments published by the German Vaccination Commission in 1884, showed that smallpox vaccination was unsuccessful in about 2 out of 3 cases. I believe that McBean didn’t describe this experiment accurately…
The experiments were performed on 30 boys aged 8 to 14. Five of them had had smallpox within the previous two years; 4 of them had been vaccinated. The vaccinations were repeated every 8 days.
From the (first) 30 boys, 23 (77%) were unsuccessfully vaccinated.
From the remaining 23, 14 (61%) were unsuccessful.
From the remaining 14, 9 (64%?) were unsuccessful.
From the remaining 9 (?), 6 (67%) were unsuccessful.
From the remaining 6, 2 (33%) were unsuccessfully vaccinated.




> Between 1886 and 1892, there were 25,474,370 vaccinations and re-vaccinations performed in Japan, which meant that about two-thirds of the entire Japanese population, already vaccinated by the law of 1872, were re-vaccinated. During that 7-year period (1886-1892) of thorough re-vaccination, there were reported 165,774 cases of smallpox with 28,979 deaths.


_Chapter 10_
In Australia, after several children died from smallpox vaccination, the government abolished compulsory vaccination and smallpox declined to the vanishing point. Australia had only 3 cases of smallpox in 15 years; compare this to Japan...

_Chapter 5_
In 1907, cancer was unheard of among children. But in 1957, a substantial amount of children dies from cancer.
The cancer death rate has more than doubled from 65 persons per 100,000 in 1900 to 134.8 persons per 100,000 in 1948.

_Chapter 7_
The common diseases mentioned by Morgan, more than doubled after the annual June vaccination campaign (measles more than tripled).

Eleanor McBean - The Poisoned Needle (1957): http://www.whale.to/a/mcbean.html

----------


## Schifference

Last post by me on this thread. Firestarter, the  only reason I even commented on this thread was because of the blatant mischaracterization of Dr. Zimmerman's statements.

----------


## Stratovarious

> Last post by me on this thread. Firestarter, the  only reason I even commented on this thread was because of the blatant mischaracterization of Dr. Zimmerman's statements.


So you support mandatory vaccines........?
-
Edit 12:35
ha ha alright, I was just checking to see if you would keep 
your word, you win bro......

----------


## donnay

> *Vaccines and Autism: Expert Exposes DOJ Vaccine Fraud*
> 
> By Ty Bollinger
> January 8, 2019
> 
> On Sunday evening, over 19 million people tuned in to watch the Golden Globe Awards, where hosts Andy Samberg and Sandra Oh surprised guests and nominees alike by sending out a team of nurses to administer flu shots.
> 
> And while this ridiculous stunt has been seen by millions and discussed at length on social media, theres something else that happened on Sunday that no one seems to be talking about.
> 
> ...


https://thetruthaboutcancer.com/vaccines-and-autism/

----------


## donnay

> *Former professional fighter says vaccines are to blame for son’s death*
> 
> BRICK TOWNSHIP -
> A former professional fighter from New Jersey says that vaccines are to blame for the death of his son.
> 
> Nick Catone is preparing to open a new gym in Ocean County next week. But he says while he is preparing for that, he is also preparing to take on the government over the unexpected death of his son 15 months ago.
> 
> Catone says that his son Nicholas was only 20 months old. He says the boy went to bed one night and did not wake up the next morning. This was May 12, 2017. 
> 
> ...


http://newjersey.news12.com/story/38...for-sons-death

----------


## RonZeplin

*Over $4 Billion Paid for Vaccine Injuries and Deaths    

*

A Dec. 1, 2018 update by the U.S.  Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA) on the federal  Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) reported that the total  amount of awards to children and adults who have been injured or died  after receiving federally recommended childhood vaccines has surpassed $4 billion.1 2

 The VICP was created by Congress  under the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 as a federal  compensation system alternative to vaccine injury lawsuits filed in  civil court.3

According to an article published in _Fair Warning_, almost  no media attention has been given to payouts made to vaccine victims by  the government, which are adjudicated in the U.S. Court of Federal  Claims (also known as Vaccine Court).1 _Fair Warning_  points out that one of the reasons that the Vaccine Court works in  relative obscurity is because public health officials maintain that  vaccines provide vast public health benefits and are reluctant to talk  about vaccine casualties for fear that publicity about vaccine injury  compensation awards would dissuade the public from getting vaccinated.1

 The HRSA report reveals that over the  past 30 years (since 1989), the VICP has received 20,123 petitions  claiming vaccine injury and death, out of which 18,000 claims have been  resolved. Of those 17,576 cases, 6,313 cases (about two out of three  claims) have received compensation awards via settlements or judgments.1 2 

Nevertheless, HRSA does not acknowledge that vaccine injuries are rare  and estimates that one person has been compensated for every million  doses distributed in the United States.1 However, HRSA fails to acknowledge that there is no mechanism for measuring how many injuries and deaths after vaccination have occurred but have never been reported.

https://thevaccinereaction.org/2019/...es-and-deaths/

----------


## H_H

*A high CDC official, Frank DeStefano, ordered Thompson and his team to destroy that data in a large garbage can and omit the damning findings from the published study. That (censored) study forms the cornerstone of the CDC's orthodoxy that vaccines don't cause autism.

*This is all anyone should be talking about in this thread, and also any in any scientific debate on this question in the “scientific community.””  Of course, there is no such scientific debate, and it is highly doubtful whether any such “scientific community” exists. 

Anyone who is honest should be condemning this OUTRAGEOUS DATA FRAUD to high heaven. Tampering with data should be THE cardinal sin in science. The fact that it is not tells you all you need to know about Modern “Science”, State of.  One side of this debate has absolutely no honesty whatsoever. The pro-vaxxers are absolutely allergic to it. No honesty. 

Now the other side in general isn’t too bright. I’ll give ya that. But at least they’re honest. 

Honesty is #1.  Angela, Schifference, and Juan-boy should step up and loudly condemn this, and all, data fraud.  Loudly. Make me believe you care. That you feel it. That you burn with fury at it. 

Because let me unlock the great mystery for you of why you can’t persuade anyone on this ever and these debates go nowhere and you feel you’re talking to brick walls: the honest have no ears for the words of the dishonest. The dishonest do not have anything to say to the honest. They just don’t. 

Make us believe.

----------


## AZJoe

> OMG!  Deadly metals! (if the amounts are any threat to health, everybody on the planet should be dead.  How much? (Source is not peer reviewed and will print anything somebody is willing to pay them the $900 to do so). 
> http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skept...rnal-bad-data/


Leave it Zippy to latch on to the most ridiculous fallacies. If it  doesn't kill everyone on the planet then it must be safe. Idiotic hyperbole fallacy. 

Also Zippy quoting that the amount of aluminum neurotoxins injection into the body with the vaccines is , "s_o low, that the human body wouldnt notice it._" Yet, at the same time the pharmaceuticals specifically put the aluminum neurotoxic compounds into the vaccines because they are of sufficient dosage to suppress the human immune system to allow the vaccine to remain in the body long enough to develop sufficient quantities of antibodies. 

So it is simultaneously enough neurotoxic aluminum compounds to affect the body, but not enough of a dosage to affect the body.

----------


## AZJoe

> Because I don't speak stupid.





> All anti-vaxxers are that stupid.   That's evidenced by the fact that they exist.  If the court system allowed juries of medical professionals to decide verdicts, we would not need to set up a court system that has medical professionals deciding verdicts.


These are some of the most nonsensical statements ever. It's like the mental sophistry of a two year old "They are stupid evidenced by the fact they exist." - huh? Its logically retarded. 

Its like saying "anti-statists are stupid evidenced by the fact that they exist." or Anti-taxers are stupid evidenced by the fact that they exist, or anti gun-controllers are stupid evidenced by the fact that they exist . 

It is an emotional outburst. There is no reasoning to these statements whatsoever. 

Also medical professionals do sit on juries.

----------


## AZJoe

Some unfortunate people fall into the fallacy that because some vaccines are life saving godsends and so effective, then every vaccine rolling off the pipeline of big pharmacy is automatically just as great and can't possibly pose any possible health risk despite any evidence and regardless of when or how frequent these injections are given, and therefore all vaccines must be pushed on everyone, and half of the vaccines even mandated by state governments under CDC "persuasion". 

The ultimate issue with vaccines is that they should always be a personal choice. No government mandates. It should always be up to the individual to weigh the benefits and risks in an open and free market. 

Some vaccines are virtual godsends in saving lives - i.e. polio, smallpox. A huge benefit. 

Some vaccines are more an issue of convenience - measles, chicken pox, rubella. Sure it is a convenience not to have to go through the childhood right of passage of measles or chicken pox, or German measles, but not a big deal for those of us who did.  

Other vaccines are a bad joke - Gardasil's HPV, the eternal train of infinite flu vaccines. The government of India suspended the of Gardasil of too many serious adverse reactions including deaths and disablement. In the US, the US government's VAERS lists over 54,000 adverse reactions to Gardasil, with 833 life threatening, 343 associated deaths, and 14,000 Gardasil reaction emergency room visits.

There is irrefutable evidence that certain vaccines are absolute life savers. There is also strong evidence that certain additives to vaccines (mercury compounds, aluminum neurotoxic compounds) effect a small percentage of the population very badly, particularly when administered at a higher frequency schedule of vaccinations during the infancy. Some vaccines themselves trigger serious adverse health reactions, and the risk varies from type of vaccine. Twenty 20 vaccines have had to be recalled in the US in the past 12 years. The US government set up an entire program devoted just to collecting reports of adverse vaccines reaction VAERS. 

Ultimately it should always be up to the individuals to choose which vaccines to get, and on what time table in an open free market.

----------


## Stratovarious

> *A high CDC official, Frank DeStefano, ordered Thompson and his team to destroy that data in a large garbage can and omit the damning findings from the published study. That (censored) study forms the cornerstone of the CDC's orthodoxy that vaccines don't cause autism.
> 
> *This is all anyone should be talking about in this thread, and also any in any scientific debate on this question in the scientific community.  Of course, there is no such scientific debate, and it is highly doubtful whether any such scientific community exists. 
> 
> Anyone who is honest should be condemning this OUTRAGEOUS DATA FRAUD to high heaven. Tampering with data should be THE cardinal sin in science. The fact that it is not tells you all you need to know about Modern Science, State of.  One side of this debate has absolutely no honesty whatsoever. The pro-vaxxers are absolutely allergic to it. No honesty. 
> 
> Now the other side in general isnt too bright. Ill give ya that. But at least theyre honest. 
> 
> Honesty is #1.  Angela, Schifference, and Juan-boy should step up and loudly condemn this, and all, data fraud.  Loudly. Make me believe you care. That you feel it. That you burn with fury at it. 
> ...


Great points, though I don't see the Mandatory Vaccine zealots being any 'smarter' 
than the opponents, cut n' pasting statistics and studies that went 'well' is easy, 
presenting accounts of horrible fail from vaccines is usually just dead children
and terrible maladies resulting from vaccines that didn't work as planned , 
those accounts don't take on the aura of 'scientific study' .
Sure, the zealots here repeatedly say they are not for 'forced vaccines' , 
yet that is in fact the real issue today; people need to be allowed to make
their own decisions, it should not be left to the government to decide.
There no doubt that many vaccines are useful, I don't think anyone is arguing against them so long as they are voluntary and not forced/mandated.
The proponents of Mandatory Vaccines are of the same camp as 
the CO2 chicken little heretics.

----------


## Stratovarious

> Some unfortunate people fall into the fallacy that because some vaccines are life saving godsends and so effective, then every vaccine rolling off the pipeline of big pharmacy is automatically just as great and can't possibly pose any possible health risk despite any evidence and regardless of when or how frequent these injections are given, and therefore all vaccines must be pushed on everyone, and half of the vaccines even mandated by state governments under CDC "persuasion". 
> 
> The ultimate issue with vaccines is that they should always be a personal choice. No government mandates. It should always be up to the individual to weigh the benefits and risks in an open and free market. 
> ...


I agree; CHOICE
$360 vaccine (gardacil) they even started recommending it for boys.
Merck spend millions promoting it, Perry was all over it, a massively,
ginormous' cash COW.
 Had they greased enough palms and or been more effective in lobbying
and taken this as a 'mandate' Nation Wide; 
this would have meant billions for Merck , and a very nice bump to Merck Stock.
Merck should have developed a vaccine for greed.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.758f16b167ff




...

----------


## Firestarter

> Other vaccines are a bad joke - Gardasil's HPV, the eternal train of infinite flu vaccines. The government of India suspended the of Gardasil of too many serious adverse reactions including deaths and disablement. In the US, the US government's VAERS lists over 54,000 adverse reactions to Gardasil, with 833 life threatening, 343 associated deaths, and 14,000 Gardasil reaction emergency room visits.


 Unfortunately I haven't found any type of vaccine that actually prevents disease...




> The incidence of cervical cancer in India is 27 per 100,000 women with a mortality of 15.2 per 100,000 women.
> Cervical cancer has been rapidly declining in India over the past 2 to 3 decades, without screening or vaccination. A study from Mumbai showed an average annual decline in cervical cancer incidence of 1.8% between 1976 and 2005. The average annual decline was even steeper between 1991 and 2005 (2.8%).
> The age standardized incidence rate of cervical cancer in Mumbai dropped from 41.1 in 1976 to 26.6 in 2005 (per 100,000 female population in age group 30-64 years).
> 
> Although both approved HPV-vaccines (Gardasil and Cervarix) are reported as safe, data from the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) in the US suggests that the rate of Gardasil-associated adverse reactions is 4.3/100.000 - 2.5 times higher than the death rate from cervical cancer.
> The adverse event rates in the VAERS database are probably highly underestimated.
> 
> According to the official statistics…
> About 90% of HPV infections clear “naturally”.
> ...


 http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post6650468

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Leave it Zippy to latch on to the most ridiculous fallacies. If it  doesn't kill everyone on the planet then it must be safe. Idiotic hyperbole fallacy. 
> 
> Also Zippy quoting that the amount of aluminum neurotoxins injection into the body with the vaccines is , "s_o low, that the human body wouldn’t notice it._" Yet, at the same time the pharmaceuticals specifically put the aluminum neurotoxic compounds into the vaccines because they are of sufficient dosage to suppress the human immune system to allow the vaccine to remain in the body long enough to develop sufficient quantities of antibodies. 
> 
> So it is simultaneously enough neurotoxic aluminum compounds to affect the body, but not enough of a dosage to affect the body.


And yet we can't get him banned.

----------


## Firestarter

Authority on vaccines Stanley Plotkin tells under oath that aborted babies are used in the development of vaccines. Plotkin also tells that he has problems with religious zealots.

----------


## donnay



----------


## Schifference

I had questioned deaths from flu late last year in a thread. CDC stated that 80,000 people died from flu last year. I thought the number was extremely high. The other day I heard local news where they were scaring people into getting vaccine because flu season was not over and *25 people have died from flu this year in Connecticut.*  It would seem that a lot more than 25 should be dead by now if we are going to hit 80,000 nationwide by the end of the season.

----------


## donnay

I would love to know the formula they use to come up with the numbers of flu deaths.

Dallas County reports 8th flu death of the season
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/dall...zen.yandex.com

----------


## donnay



----------


## RonZeplin

*Harvard Immunologist to Legislators: Unvaccinated Children Pose ZERO Risk to Anyone*

*An Open Letter to Legislators Currently Considering Vaccine Legislation from Tetyana Obukhanych, PhD
*
 Dear Legislator:

My name is Tetyana Obukhanych. I hold a PhD in Immunology. I am  writing this letter in the hope that it will correct several common  misperceptions about vaccines in order to help you formulate a fair and  balanced understanding that is supported by accepted vaccine theory and  new scientific findings.
*
Do unvaccinated children pose a higher threat to the public than the vaccinated?*

It is often stated that those who choose not to vaccinate their  children for reasons of conscience endanger the rest of the public, and  this is the rationale behind most of the legislation to end vaccine  exemptions currently being considered by federal and state legislators  country-wide.

You should be aware that the nature of protection afforded by many  modern vaccines  and that includes most of the vaccines recommended by  the CDC for children  is not consistent with such a statement.

I have outlined below the recommended vaccines that cannot prevent  transmission of disease either because they are not designed to prevent  the transmission of infection (rather, they are intended to prevent  disease symptoms), or because they are for non-communicable diseases.

People who have not received the vaccines mentioned below pose no  higher threat to the general public than those who have, implying that  discrimination against non-immunized children in a public school setting  may not be warranted.

1.* IPV (inactivated poliovirus vaccine) cannot prevent transmission of poliovirus.*  (see appendix for the scientific study, Item #1). Wild poliovirus has  been non-existent in the USA for at least two decades. Even if wild  poliovirus were to be re-imported by travel, vaccinating for polio with  IPV cannot affect the safety of public spaces. Please note that wild  poliovirus eradication is attributed to the use of a different vaccine,  OPV or oral poliovirus vaccine. Despite being capable of preventing wild  poliovirus transmission, use of OPV was phased out long ago in the USA  and replaced with IPV due to safety concerns.

2. Tetanus* is not a contagious disease*, but rather  acquired from deep-puncture wounds contaminated with C. tetani spores.  Vaccinating for tetanus (via the DTaP combination vaccine) cannot alter  the safety of public spaces; it is intended to render personal  protection only.

3. While intended to prevent the disease-causing effects of the diphtheria toxin, *the diphtheria toxoid vaccine* (also contained in the DTaP vaccine) *is not designed to prevent colonization and transmission of C. diphtheriae*. Vaccinating for diphtheria cannot alter the safety of public spaces; it is likewise intended for personal protection only.

4. The acellular pertussis (aP) vaccine (the final element of the  DTaP combined vaccine), now in use in the USA, replaced the whole cell  pertussis vaccine in the late 1990s, which was followed by an  unprecedented resurgence of whooping cough. An experiment with  deliberate pertussis infection in primates revealed that the aP vaccine  is not capable of preventing colonization and transmission of B.  pertussis. The FDA has issued a warning regarding this crucial finding.  [1]
 Furthermore, the 2013 meeting of the Board of Scientific Counselors at the CDC revealed additional alarming data that*  pertussis variants (PRN-negative strains) currently circulating in the  USA acquired a selective advantage to infect those who are up-to-date  for their DTaP boosters*, meaning that people who are up-to-date are _more_ likely to be infected, and thus contagious, than people who are not vaccinated.

5. Among numerous types of _H. influenzae_, the Hib vaccine  covers only type b. Despite its sole intention to reduce symptomatic and  asymptomatic (disease-less) Hib carriage,* the introduction of  the Hib vaccine has inadvertently shifted strain dominance towards other  types of H. influenzae (types a through f)*. These types have  been causing invasive disease of high severity and increasing incidence  in adults in the era of Hib vaccination of children (see appendix for  the scientific study, Item #4). The general population is more  vulnerable to the invasive disease now than it was prior to the start of  the Hib vaccination campaign. Discriminating against children who are  not vaccinated for Hib does not make any scientific sense in the era of  non-type b _H. influenzae_ disease.

6. *Hepatitis B is a blood-borne virus.* It does not  spread in a community setting, especially among children who are  unlikely to engage in high-risk behaviors, such as needle sharing or  sex. Vaccinating children for hepatitis B cannot significantly alter the  safety of public spaces. Further, school admission is not prohibited  for children who are chronic hepatitis B carriers. To prohibit school  admission for those who are simply unvaccinated  and do not even carry  hepatitis B  would constitute unreasonable and illogical  discrimination.
*
In summary, a person who is not vaccinated with IPV, DTaP,  HepB, and Hib vaccines due to reasons of conscience poses no extra  danger to the public than a person who is. No discrimination is  warranted.*
*
How often do serious vaccine adverse events happen?*

It is often stated that vaccination rarely leads to serious adverse events.
 Unfortunately, this statement is not supported by science.




https://healthimpactnews.com/2017/ha...isk-to-anyone/

----------


## DamianTV

The Politics and Profits of Vaccines have become more complicated than the Science behind it.

/waits for Angela to come along and call me a Leftist for trying to allow people to decide for themselves.

----------


## donnay

> FEBRUARY 19, 2019
> *Measles Madness: Dr. Brian Hookers Statement to WA Legislators*
> 
> By Brian S. Hooker, Science Advisor, Focus for Health and Board Member, Childrens Health Defense
> 
> This article originally published by Focus for Health.
> 
> Dr. Hooker provided testimony last Friday, February 8, 2019, for the Washington State House Health Committee regarding the vaccines and the Personal Belief Exemption (PBE) bill that was introduced.
> 
> ...


https://childrenshealthdefense.org/n...a-legislators/

----------


## Zippyjuan

> … it’s not low vaccination rates, it’s *actually high vaccination rates* with a vaccine product unable to provide lifetime immunity


What are the vaccination rates where the measles outbreaks occurred?  

Clark County- Washington:  




> *County school immunization rate lags behind state
> *
> 78 percent of Clark County kindergartners have required vaccines





> Melnick is particularly concerned about the local immunization rates for measles. Countywide, 85.3 percent of kindergartners were up-to-date on their measles, mumps and rubella vaccines.* The rates in some districts are much lower, such as La Center School District (72.2 percent) and Evergreen Public Schools (79.4 percent).*
> 
> “Measles, because it’s so exquisitely contagious, you need immunization rates around 95 percent for good herd immunity,” Melnick said.


Rockland, New York outbreak:  https://vaxopedia.org/2019/02/01/wha...sles-outbreak/

More than 81% of cases were in unvaccinated patients but 10.8% had "unknown" vaccination status.  Among those whose vaccination status was known,* 91.3% were not vaccinated. Another 3.5% were not fully vaccinated.  
*



> And immunization rates in the zip codes most affected by the outbreaks were as low as 54% at the start of the outbreak.

----------


## donnay

#CNN #MSM #DarlaShine
CNN FAKE NEWS EXPOSED

----------


## donnay

> *Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Exposes Bill Gates & His Relationship With Big Pharma*
> 
> February 24, 2019 By Children's Health Defense
> 
> Bill Gates is fond of using his bully pulpit to talk about miracles and magic. Gates has featured one or both words in nearly all of his annual wrap-up letters for the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation (2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2014, 2016 and 2017), most often in reference to the Gates Foundations outsized financial and ideological support for global vaccine programs. As Gates says, In the same way that during my Microsoft career I talked about the magic of software, I now spend my time talking about the magic of vaccines.
> 
> Gatess words give us an immediate clue that he is engaging in his own brand of magical thinkingwhich social scientists define as illogical causal reasoning. How else to explain his simplistic endorsement of vaccines as a miraculous intervention with unmitigated benefits and no down side? The Gates Foundations global spreadsheet appears to have no room to tally the massive flood of vaccine injuries afflicting children worldwide, despite abundant evidence that this damage is standing the vaccine risk-benefit calculus on its head and turning childhood into an extended round of Russian roulette.
> 
> *Lets Report History Accurately*
> ...


https://www.collective-evolution.com...zen.yandex.com

----------


## Working Poor

> What are the vaccination rates where the measles outbreaks occurred?  
> 
> Clark County- Washington:  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rockland, New York outbreak:  https://vaxopedia.org/2019/02/01/wha...sles-outbreak/
> ...


How many died and, how many now have life rime immunity?

----------


## donnay



----------


## shakey1

> https://www.collective-evolution.com...zen.yandex.com


Bill Gates is an evil POS.

----------


## donnay

> Bill Gates is an evil POS.


Yes he is.  The Billionaire Eugenic's Club.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Yes he is.  The Billionaire Eugenic's Club.


Ron Paul supports vaccination. Is he a "eugenicist"?  

Rand's position is less clear. 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...cs-kaci-hickox




> *Rand Paul backs off vaccine comments after critics warn he 'sort of ignores' science*
> 
> Kentucky senator Rand Paul backpedalled Tuesday on comments he made about vaccines that quickly drew the condemnations of everyone from medical professionals to senior Republican party members to the formerly quarantined healthcare provider best remembered for calling out Paul’s potential rival for the White House.
> 
> Paul’s attempt at clarification landed as Republicans in Washington, from Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell to House speaker John Boehner to the dozen or so members of the prospective 2016 presidential field scrambled to describe their views on vaccination.
> 
> Following controversial comments by New Jersey governor Chris Christie regarding a measles outbreak spreading across the US, Paul set off another cascade of criticism when he told CNBC on Monday that vaccinations could lead to “profound mental disorders” and that parents “should have some input”.
> 
> In his follow-up statement, Paul sought to make a distinction between correlation and causation – the kind of science-minded distinction that some of his critics saw him as abandoning.
> ...


[IMG]https://static01.********/images/2015/02/03/us/politics/03firstdraft-rand-paul/03firstdraft-rand-paul-tmagArticle.jpg[/IMG]

----------


## donnay

> Ron Paul supports vaccination. Is he a "eugenicist"?  
> 
> Rand's position is less clear. 
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...cs-kaci-hickox
> 
> 
> 
> [IMG]https://static01.********/images/2015/02/03/us/politics/03firstdraft-rand-paul/03firstdraft-rand-paul-tmagArticle.jpg[/IMG]


Lame rebuttle.  Is Ron Paul a Billionaire philanthropist?  Also both Dr, Paul is against forced vaccines.

----------


## RonZeplin

They may have to homeschool them now.* 

Over 6,000 Ontario Students Will Be Suspended From School Because They Are Not Vaccinated* 

*6,129 Ontario student suspension notices from schools in Waterloo, Ontario region because of immunization records.*

*Ontario schools are taking action and ensuring students* are properly immunized. A total of 6,129 Ontario students will now be getting suspension notices from school because they are not vaccinated. These suspensions will be handed out to students in the Waterloo area of Ontario. 

*READ ALSO:* _BC Minister Of Education Says Mandatory Vaccines Are Not An Option, Even Though It Already Is In 2 Other Provinces_
*
Waterloo Public Health officials told CBC News*  that they will soon be giving out 6,129 suspension orders. In order to  avoid their kids getting suspended, the parents of these Ontario  students will need to show proof that their kids have been immunized by  March 26th. The only other way to avoid suspension is if there is a  valid reason for exemption, according to _CBC News_. 
*
READ ALSO:* _Many Torontonians In An Uproar Over New Anti-Vaccine Billboards In The GTA_

*These suspensions are not necessarily short in length. CBC News* reports  that they could be for as long as 20 days, meaning students could be  suspended for up to four weeks of school. The Region of Waterloo Public  Health had already sent out notices to parents prior to the suspension  notices about getting their kids vaccinated. 
*
READ ALSO:* _Tim Hortons Just Opened Its First Restaurant In China And The Menu Is Unrecognizable_

*According to CBC News, last fall in 2018,* officials  had already sent a total of 9,595 notices to parents in the region of  Waterloo whose kids did not have updated vaccination records. 

https://www.narcity.com/ca/on/toront...not-vaccinated

----------


## RonZeplin

*Anti-vaccine movies disappear from Amazon after CNN Business report*

Amazon has apparently started removing anti-vaccine documentaries  from its Amazon Prime Video streaming service. The move came days after a  CNN Business report highlighted the anti-vaccine comment available on  the site, and hours after Rep. Adam Schiff wrote an open letter to  Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos, saying he is concerned that Amazon is surfacing  and recommending anti-vaccination books and movies.

Anti-vaccine movies that were previously available free for Prime  subscribers, like We Dont Vaccinate!, Shoot Em Up: The Truth About  Vaccines, and Vaxxed: From Cover-Up to Catastrophe, are now  currently unavailable.

BuzzFeed News was first to report that Vaxxed was no longer  available. Amazon did not respond to questions about why the films are  no longer available on Prime Video.

However, while some anti-vaccine videos are gone from the Prime  streaming service, a number of anti-vaccine books were still available  for purchase on Amazon.com when CNN Business reviewed search results on  Friday afternoon, and some were still being offered for free to Kindle  Unlimited subscribers. A sponsored post for the book Vaccines On Trial:  Truth and Consequences of Mandatory Shots also remained live.

Amazon also had not removed some anti-vaccine books that CNN Business  had previously reported on, which users searching the site could  mistake for offering neutral information accepted by the public health  community. Titles still listed include Millers Review of Critical  Vaccine Studies: 400 Important Scientific Papers Summarized for Parents  and Researchers and The Vaccine-Friendly Plan: Dr. Pauls Safe and  Effective Approach to Immunity and Health  from Pregnancy Through Your  Childs Teen Years.

Amongst the titles taken down are VAXXED: From Cover-Up to  Catastrophe, the notorious anti-vaccine documentary that was banned  from the Tribeca Film Festival in 2016, and whose director, Andrew  Wakefield, is one of the central figures in the anti-vaccine movements.

https://fox2now.com/2019/03/01/anti-...siness-report/

----------


## donnay

Medical tyranny!!  Censorship is the only way to shut opposition down.

----------


## Swordsmyth

Measles is documented to be able to be transmitted by a vaccinated individual.  Ergo, bringing Measles up from across the border in immigrants is doing  far more to spread it than people not vaccinating their children.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Measles is documented to be able to be transmitted by a vaccinated individual.  Ergo, *bringing Measles up from across the border in immigrants is doing  far more to spread it than people not vaccinating their children*.


Theoretically, a person given a live virus vaccine can "shed" (infect somebody else) but not a single case has been documented outside a laboratory. The link notes:




> Titled, “Outbreak of Measles Among Persons With Prior Evidence of Immunity, New York City, 2011,” the groundbreaking study acknowledged that, “Measles may occur in vaccinated individuals, but *secondary transmission from such individuals has not been documented*.”


Measles is NOT a live virus vaccine so shedding with measles is impossible.  Chicken pox does use a live virus as does the single use flu vaccine. 

The immigrants coming to the border come from countries with national healthcare plans and are actually more likely to be vaccinated against measles than US citizens. 91% of US citizens are vaccinated. In Mexico it is 97%.  Honduras 97%.  

Fake fear mongering.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Theoretically, a person given a live virus vaccine can "shed" (infect somebody else) but not a single case has been documented outside a laboratory. The link notes:
> 
> 
> 
> Measles is NOT a live virus vaccine so shedding with measles is impossible.  Chicken pox does use a live virus as does the single use flu vaccine.


It hadn't been previously documented:



Last year, a groundbreaking study published in the journal _Clinical Infectious Diseases_,  whose authorship includes scientists working for the Bureau of  Immunization, New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene, and  the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, Centers  for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), Atlanta, GA, looked at  evidence from the 2011 New York measles outbreak that individuals *with  prior evidence of measles vaccination and vaccine immunity were both  capable of being infected with measles and infecting others with it  (secondary transmission).*
This finding even aroused the  attention of mainstream news reporting, such as this Sciencemag.org  article from April 2014 titled “*Measles Outbreak Traced to Fully Vaccinated Patient for First Time*.”
Titled, “*Outbreak of Measles Among Persons With Prior Evidence of Immunity, New York City, 2011*,”  the groundbreaking study acknowledged that, “Measles may occur in  vaccinated individuals, but secondary transmission from such individuals  has not been documented.”
In order to find out if measles vaccine compliant individuals are capable of being infected andtransmitting the infection to others,  they evaluated suspected cases and contacts exposed during a 2011  measles outbreak in NYC. They focused on one patient who had received  two doses of measles-containing vaccine and found that,
“Of  88 contacts, four secondary cases were confirmed that had either two  doses of measles-containing vaccine or a past positive  measles IgG antibody. All cases had laboratory confirmation of measles  infection, clinical symptoms consistent with measles, and high  avidity IgG antibody characteristic of a secondary immune response.”



Their remarkable conclusion:
“This is the first  report of measles transmission from a twice vaccinated individual. The  clinical presentation and laboratory data of the index were typical of  measles in a naïve individual. Secondary cases had robust anamnestic  antibody responses. No tertiary cases occurred despite numerous  contacts. This outbreak underscores the need for thorough epidemiologic  and laboratory investigation of suspected measles cases regardless of  vaccination status.”
Did you follow that? A twice-vaccinated individual, from a NYC measles  outbreak, was found to have transmitted measles to four of her contacts,  two of which themselves had received two doses of MMR vaccine and had  prior presumably protective measles IgG antibody results.

More at: https://www.wakingtimes.com/2016/01/...chers-confirm/






> The immigrants coming to the border come from countries with national healthcare plans and are actually more likely to be vaccinated against measles than US citizens. 91% of US citizens are vaccinated. In Mexico it is 97%.  Honduras 97%.  
> 
> Fake fear mongering.


They catch quite a few of them that are infected and at least one has been identified as a "patient 0" in a measles outbreak so their vaccinations must not be very effective.

Maybe sanitation and nutrition are a large factor?

----------


## Zippyjuan

> It hadn't been previously documented:
> 
> 
> 
> Last year, a groundbreaking study published in the journal _Clinical Infectious Diseases_,  whose authorship includes scientists working for the Bureau of  Immunization, New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene, and  the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, Centers  for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), Atlanta, GA, looked at  evidence from the 2011 New York measles outbreak that individuals *with  prior evidence of measles vaccination and vaccine immunity were both  capable of being infected with measles and infecting others with it  (secondary transmission).*
> This finding even aroused the  attention of mainstream news reporting, such as this Sciencemag.org  article from April 2014 titled “*Measles Outbreak Traced to Fully Vaccinated Patient for First Time*.”
> Titled, “*Outbreak of Measles Among Persons With Prior Evidence of Immunity, New York City, 2011*,”  the groundbreaking study acknowledged that, “Measles may occur in  vaccinated individuals, but secondary transmission from such individuals  has not been documented.”
> In order to find out if measles vaccine compliant individuals are capable of being infected andtransmitting the infection to others,  they evaluated suspected cases and contacts exposed during a 2011  measles outbreak in NYC. They focused on one patient who had received  two doses of measles-containing vaccine and found that,
> “Of  88 contacts, four secondary cases were confirmed that had either two  doses of measles-containing vaccine or a past positive  measles IgG antibody. All cases had laboratory confirmation of measles  infection, clinical symptoms consistent with measles, and high  avidity IgG antibody characteristic of a secondary immune response.”
> ...


So she was one of the very few cases where vaccination did not fully protect her. Her vaccination was nearly 20 years before she got the measles. Also she was not an immigrant. 




> The index patient was a *22-year-old female* resident of NYC with a past medical history only significant for mitral valve prolapse. She developed a generalized rash, cough, conjunctivitis, coryza, sore throat, and subjective fever and presented to an emergency room for medical care but was not hospitalized. She had documentation of *receipt of MMR vaccination at 3 years and 4 years of age*.


Of the two people twice vaccinated who did test positive for measles antibodies:




> One patient (case 2) *had a medical history of immunosuppression*


meaning a weakened immune system. 

How common is this? 




> This is* the first report* of measles transmission from a twice vaccinated individual.


https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/58/9/1205/2895266


Out of hundreds of millions of people.

Also not an example of "shedding" which is where a vaccinated person has live virus in their system from the vaccine which in theory could be spread to somebody else.

----------


## donnay

> Measles is NOT a live virus vaccine so shedding with measles is impossible.


From the CDC's website:  "MMR is an attenuated (weakened) *live* virus vaccine."

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/mmr/public/

----------


## Zippyjuan

> From the CDC's website:  "MMR is an attenuated (weakened) *live* virus vaccine."
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/mmr/public/


Thank you for the correction on that.  There is still not a single documented case of shedding from a measles vaccine outside a laboratory.

----------


## donnay

> Thank you for the correction on that.  There is still not a single documented case of shedding from a measles vaccine outside a laboratory.









> In the midst of a local measles outbreak, a recently immunized child was investigated for a new-onset measles-type rash. Nucleic acid testing identified that a *vaccine-type measles virus was being shed in the urine.*


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3381670/




> Measles virus RNA was detected in 10 of 12 children during the 2-week sampling period.
> In some cases, measles virus RNA was detected as early as 1 day or as late as 14 days after the children were vaccinated.
> *Measles virus RNA was also detected in the urine samples from all four of the young adults between 1 and 13 days after vaccination*.


http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/vac...ments-confirms

----------


## Zippyjuan

> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3381670/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Measles virus RNA was also detected in the urine samples from all four of the young adults between 1 and 13 days after vaccination*.
> 			
> 		
> ...


Antibodies in the urine is not "shedding" where somebody is infected by a person recently given a live vaccine.  Did somebody contract measles from that urine?  It is actually normal and found even in healthy people following vaccination who exhibit zero symptoms of measles.

----------


## donnay

> Antibodies in the urine is not "shedding" where somebody is infected by a person recently given a live vaccine.  Did somebody contract measles from that urine?  It is actually normal and found even in healthy people following vaccination who exhibit zero symptoms of measles.


Do little kids in diapers get vaccines? 

ETA:
For this very reason that is why it is imperative to thoroughly wash your hands, with soap and water, after using the bathroom.  Polio is passed through fecal matter.  You CANNOT use hand sanitizers to remove fecal matter from your hands.  Hepatitis A is also passed through feces.  This is why people can contract it, by simply eating out, and the food preparer did not wash their hands properly, if they have Hep A.




> Scientific evidence demonstrates that individuals vaccinated with live virus vaccines such as MMR (measles, mumps and rubella), rotavirus, chicken pox, shingles and influenza can shed the virus for many weeks or months afterwards and infect the vaccinated and unvaccinated alike.1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10
> 
> Furthermore, vaccine recipients can carry diseases in the back of their throat and infect others while displaying no symptoms of a disease.11,12,13
> 
> “Numerous scientific studies indicate that children who receive a live virus vaccination can shed the disease and infect others for weeks or even months afterwards. Thus, parents who vaccinate their children can indeed put others at risk,”


https://www.westonaprice.org/studies...pread-disease/

----------


## Danke

*House Rep. Schiff calls Amazon's anti-vaccination content 'direct threat to public health' in letter to Bezos*
Adam Schiff, D-Calif., sent a letter to Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos on Friday to express concerns about anti-vaccination content on the marketplace.Schiff asked what steps Amazon is taking to combat the spread of misinformation.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/01/schi...ic-health.html

----------


## donnay

> *House Rep. Schiff calls Amazon's anti-vaccination content 'direct threat to public health' in letter to Bezos*
> Adam Schiff, D-Calif., sent a letter to Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos on Friday to express concerns about anti-vaccination content on the marketplace.Schiff asked what steps Amazon is taking to combat the spread of misinformation.
> https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/01/schi...ic-health.html


This piece of  needs to be exposed.  I want to know how much graft he gets from Big pHARMa?  He is such a traitor to the US!

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I would love to know the formula they use to come up with the numbers of flu deaths.
> 
> Dallas County reports 8th flu death of the season
> https://www.dallasnews.com/news/dall...zen.yandex.com


The same way they calculate drunk driving deaths, smoking deaths, gun deaths and so on...

You die from being hit by a bus...and if you, the family, the cable guy, your first grade friend or the guy two towns over who does your brakes had the flu in the past twenty years, bang, flu related fatality

It's a bunch of

----------


## Swordsmyth

*Whooping Cough Outbreak at Exclusive Harvard-Westlake School: 30 Out of 30 Students Were Vaccinated*

----------


## RonZeplin

*Statement on Federal Vaccine Mandates*

To:  Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee, House Energy and Commerce Committee
 Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions
 Re: Statement federal vaccine mandates
 Feb. 26, 2019

*The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) strongly  opposes federal interference in medical decisions, including mandated  vaccines.* After being fully informed of the risks and benefits of a  medical procedure, patients have the right to reject or accept that  procedure. The regulation of medical practice is a state function, not a  federal one. Governmental preemption of patients or parents decisions  about accepting drugs or other medical interventions is a serious  intrusion into individual liberty, autonomy, and parental decisions  about child-rearing.

 A public health threat is the rationale for the policy on mandatory  vaccines. But how much of a threat is required to justify forcing people  to accept government-imposed risks? Regulators may intervene to protect  the public against a one-in-one million risk of a threat such as cancer  from an involuntary exposure to a toxin, or-one-in 100,000 risk from a  voluntary (e.g. occupational) exposure. What is the risk of death,  cancer, or crippling complication from a vaccine? There are no rigorous  safety studies of sufficient power to rule out a much lower risk of  complications, even one in 10,000, for vaccines. Such studies would  require an adequate number of subjects, a long duration (years, not  days), an unvaccinated control group (placebo must be truly inactive  such as saline, not the adjuvant or  everything-but-the-intended-antigen), and consideration of all adverse  health events (including neurodevelopment disorders). 

Vaccines are necessarily risky, as recognized by the U.S. Supreme  Court and by Congress. The Vaccine Injury Compensation Program has paid  some $4 billion in damages, and high hurdles must be surmounted to  collect compensation. The damage may be so devastating that most people  would prefer restored function to a multimillion-dollar damage award.

The smallpox vaccine is so dangerous that you cant get it now,  despite the weaponization of smallpox. Rabies vaccine is given only  after a suspected exposure or to high-risk persons such as  veterinarians. The whole-cell pertussis vaccine was withdrawn from the  U.S. market, a decade later than from the Japanese market, because of  reports of severe permanent brain damage. The acellular vaccine that  replaced it is evidently safer, though somewhat less effective.

The risk: benefit ratio varies with the frequency and severity of  disease, vaccine safety, and individual patient factors. These must be  evaluated by patient and physician, not imposed by a government agency.

https://aapsonline.org/measles-outbr...q_jjiCkCH_QLBQ

----------


## DamianTV

If we are the PROPERTY of the Govt, then they can do with our bodies as they see fit.  If we are FREE, then we own ourselves, including our body, and can choose for ourselves what happens to our own bodies.  Forced Vaccinations are the most blatant VIOLATION of our RIGHT of SELF OWNERSHIP.

----------


## Leaning Libertarian

> One of the worst thing governments ever did was make vaccinations mandatory. If these things were strictly left to the free market, these same people would be lining up to buy 'em like Iphones. But no... Governments overstepped and people, as they should, became suspicious.


I agree with almost every position you hold in your posts. I do absolutely agree Government overstepped their authority. however, in this instance, I respectfully disagree that people would be so enthusiastic to go get vaccines. I believe the people's reluctance and suspicion towards vaccines is exactly what inspired the government overreach.

"Whereas between 1978 and 1981 only nine product-liability suits were filed against DTP manufacturers, by the mid-1980’s the suits numbered more than 200 each year. This destabilized the DTP vaccine market, causing two of the three domestic manufacturers to withdraw; and the remaining manufacturer, Lederle Laboratories, estimated that its potential tort liability exceeded its annual sales by a factor of 200. Vaccine shortages arose when Lederle had production problems in 1984."

Page #2 of former Supreme Court Justice Scalia's delivered opinion. 
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-152.pdf

----------


## Firestarter

> I agree with almost every position you hold in your posts. I do absolutely agree Government overstepped their authority. however, in this instance, I respectfully disagree that people would be so enthusiastic to go get vaccines. I believe the people's reluctance and suspicion towards vaccines is exactly what inspired the government overreach.
> 
> "Whereas between 1978 and 1981 only nine product-liability suits were filed against DTP manufacturers, by the mid-1980s the suits numbered more than 200 each year. This destabilized the DTP vaccine market, causing two of the three domestic manufacturers to withdraw; and the remaining manufacturer, Lederle Laboratories, estimated that its potential tort liability exceeded its annual sales by a factor of 200. Vaccine shortages arose when Lederle had production problems in 1984."


People wouldn´t be sueing big pharma and actually make a profit if the vaccines have no severe adverse effects.
Furthermore, despite the claims of big pharma, I have seen NO evidence that vaccines actually prevent disease...

----------


## Schifference

Heard today on the radio that the flu season is not over. The update is that there have been 40 deaths in Connecticut this year. Once again I ask how did they claim 80,000 deaths last year?

----------


## Stratovarious

> *Whooping Cough Outbreak at Exclusive Harvard-Westlake School: 30 Out of 30 Students Were Vaccinated*



Not fair , there was a guy in his mom's basement in So Dakota that 
_hadn't been vaccinated_, so see....

----------


## RonZeplin

NIH officials lying.  




All credit to Del Bigtree. Watch the whole video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wiq7tdaP6k   Head official in a hearing about vaccine misinformation caught telling  a lie under oath.  You gotta watch the whole video it's incredible!

----------


## donnay

FYI:  Dr. Messonnier is Rod Rosenstein's sister.  Just thought I would throw that in.

----------


## Firestarter

One of the arguments against those “dangerous” anti-vaxxers is that they “cause” epidemics. The argument is something like if more than 95% of the population would be “immunised” they can’t spread epidemics – the myth of herd immunity: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...keting-Gimmick


According to the following scientific looking report it could actually be the other way around for those magical flu vaccines (that at best could protect you against last year´s flu virus)...

People that were vaccinated in the last 2 years “fine-aerosol” shed more than six times - 6.3 - the amount of infectious flu A virus than individuals that weren´t vaccinated in the last 2 years.



> Self-reported vaccination for the current season was associated with a trend (P < 0.10) toward higher viral shedding in fine-aerosol samples; vaccination with both the current and previous year’s seasonal vaccines, however, was significantly associated with greater fine-aerosol shedding in unadjusted and adjusted models (P < 0.01). In adjusted models, we observed 6.3 (95% CI 1.9–21.5) times more aerosol shedding among cases with vaccination in the current and previous season compared with having no vaccination in those two seasons. Vaccination was not associated with coarse-aerosol or NP shedding (P > 0.10). The association of vaccination and shedding was significant for influenza A (P = 0.03) but not for influenza B (P = 0.83) infections (Table S4).


This suggests that vaccines “promote lung inflammation, airway closure, and aerosol generation”. More study is needed to confirm these hypotheses.
Another interesting conclusion is that men have a threefold greater shedding impact of coughing than women.

*Jing Yan et al. - Infectious virus in exhaled breath of symptomatic seasonal influenza cases from a college community (2018): https://www.pnas.org/content/115/5/1081*

----------


## Working Poor

> Antibodies in the urine is not "shedding" where somebody is infected by a person recently given a live vaccine.  Did somebody contract measles from that urine?  It is actually normal and found even in healthy people following vaccination who exhibit zero symptoms of measles.


Yea but, for some reason hospitals that treat cancer patients don't want someone who has been recently vaccinated around their patients because of potential shedding...

----------


## RonZeplin



----------


## navy-vet

Dumbasses are going to be our undoing....
https://www.futurism.com/fda-anti-va...cause-epidemic

----------


## donnay

> Dumbasses are going to be our undoing....
> https://www.futurism.com/fda-anti-va...cause-epidemic


If vaccines work so well, what is the problem?

The FDA should be more concerned about illegal immigrants that are coming from 3rd world countries, not because they are unvaccinated, but because they are coming here malnourished from filthy regions bringing in diseases or shedding disease to others after vaccinated.

Here is a good article:




> *Measles Outbreaks: How a Witch Hunt* Against Parents of Unvaccinated Children Was Unleashed*
> 
> We are witness to an orchestrated frenzy that has been revved-up by vaccine stakeholders  i.e., those who have a direct or indirect financial stake in vaccines through the corporate / academic institutions that employ them. Their unified objective is to achieve maximum utilization of vaccines, and total compliance with vaccination schedules set by the government in collaboration with vaccine manufacturers.
> 
> During the measles outbreak in California in 2015, *a large number of suspected cases occurred in recent vaccines*. Of the 194 measles virus sequences obtained in the United States in 2015, 73 were identified as vaccine sequences.
> 
> Contrary to the barrage of fake news promulgated by government public health officials and the media to influence public opinion, the fact is, most childhood infectious disease outbreaks include both vaccinated and unvaccinated children. Whats more, *when the infection has been tested, vaccine strain has often been identified as the cause of infection.*
> 
> In 2015, a measles outbreak in Californias Disney Land garnered nationwide front page publicity and dire warnings by public health officials and vaccine authorities. They generated high public anxiety. This fear mongering led to the demonization of unvaccinated children, who were perceived as the spreaders of disease.
> ...


https://childrenshealthdefense.org/n...ated-children/

----------


## donnay

> *Statistics Show The MMR Vaccine Kills More People Than The Measles Does*
> 
>  April 6, 2019
> By Arjun Walia
> 
> IN BRIEF
> The Facts:The measles vaccine kills more people than the measles does. The odds of dying from the measles are 0.001 percent, while the vaccine has killed, injured and disabled many children.
> 
> Reflect On:Why is this information never mentioned or acknowledged within the mainstream. Why don't many health professionals have knowledge of it?
> ...


https://www.collective-evolution.com...zen.yandex.com

----------


## AZJoe

Reality Check with Ben Swann:

----------


## Swordsmyth

They had to quarantine a Navy Ship at sea for Mumps even though every sailor on it had been vaccinated

----------


## donnay

> They had to quarantine a Navy Ship at sea for Mumps even though every sailor on it had been vaccinated


Twice.  Vaccine failure, not because of unvaccinated.  

The other problem is that getting the mumps after puberty can cause young men to become sterile.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Twice.  Vaccine failure, not because of unvaccinated.  
> 
> The other problem is that getting the mumps after puberty can cause young men to become sterile.


Less than four percent of the crew was infected.

----------


## donnay

> Less than four percent of the crew was infected.


From the article posted by Swordsmyth:




> Every single person aboard the USS Fort McHenry has been vaccinated against this virus, yet dozens have been infected. Even after more booster vaccines were administered, more cases of the vaccine-preventable virus appeared.


Vaccine failure.

----------


## donnay

> *Japan Leads the Way: No Vaccine Mandates and No MMR Vaccine = Healthier Children*
> 
> April 24, 2019 
> By Children's Health Defense
> 
> *IN BRIEF*
> 
> *The Facts*:This article was written By Kristina Kristen, Guest Writer, for Children's Health Defense, posted here with permission.
> 
> ...


https://www.collective-evolution.com...zen.yandex.com

----------


## Schifference

Vaccines are not debatable.

----------


## donnay

> Vaccines are not debatable.


According to whom?

----------


## Zippyjuan

> From the article posted by Swordsmyth:
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine failure.


There were over 700 people on the ship.  Of that, a couple dozen getting sick is not very many. 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/13/polit...rus/index.html




> All *seven hundred and three military personnel aboard the ship* have received measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) booster vaccinations, according to the US Navy's Fifth Fleet headquartered in Bahrain.

----------


## Firestarter

> There were over 700 people on the ship.  Of that, a couple dozen getting sick is not very many. 
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/13/polit...rus/index.html


 Why don’t you tell that that to Mayor De Blasio, who has ordered forced vaccination on innocent children in zip codes 11205, 11206, 11221 and 11249?
Or corrupt judge Lawrence Knipel who dismissed the lawsuit against the mandatory measles vaccination order?

Or are you saying that we should use different standards in each case in order to help "poor" big pharma statistrics?!?

24 out of 700, would be something like 295 thousand out of of 8.6 million - I would call that an epidemic...



> NYC has claimed that a total of 329 New Yorkers, out of of 8.6 million people, have been infected with measles since September 2018.



http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post6779490

----------


## euphemia

The latest outbreaks of measles have almost 200 students and faculty under quarantine at UCLA and Cal State LA.  I can’t imagine they admit a lot of students with religious exceptions for vaccination.  I wonder where this disease is coming from?  If it was a local infection, I think you would see outbreaks in other places because students have been home or on vacation during Spring Break.  There should be outbreaks at elementary or secondary schools in their home areas, or at places of business where parents work. That’s what logic says, anyway.

I don’t know what it is like out in California, but daughter had to show proof of immunization before she could attend class at college here in TN, even though she lived at home.  One would think there would be almost 100% vaccination rates on college campuses.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> The latest outbreaks of measles have almost 200 students and faculty under quarantine at UCLA and Cal State LA.  I can’t imagine they admit a lot of students with religious exceptions for vaccination.  I wonder where this disease is coming from?  If it was a local infection, I think you would see outbreaks in other places because students have been home or on vacation during Spring Break.  There should be outbreaks at elementary or secondary schools in their home areas, or at places of business where parents work. That’s what logic says, anyway.
> 
> I don’t know what it is like out in California, but daughter had to show proof of immunization before she could attend class at college here in TN, even though she lived at home.  One would think there would be almost 100% vaccination rates on college campuses.


38 cases have reported in the state.  The quarantined are those who could have been exposed and have not shown that they are vaccinated.

----------


## Cap

I got my popcorn ready for when the harpy shows up.

----------


## Zippyjuan

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...crisis-1290720




> *Trump: People 'have to get their shots' amid measles crisis*
> 
> President Donald Trump on Friday implored Americans to get vaccinated amid a massive measles outbreak, in a departure from his past skepticism about vaccines.
> 
> Speaking to reporters outside the White House, Trump weighed in for the first time on the growing crisis that has seen 695 measles cases in 2019, the worst outbreak since the disease was declared eliminated two decades ago, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
> 
> *“They have to get the shot,” Trump said. “The vaccinations are so important. This is going around now. They have to get their shots.”*
> 
> The outbreaks have spawned emergency declarations in communities in Washington state and New York, *which the CDC says are linked to unvaccinated travelers who recently visited places such as Israel, Ukraine and the Philippines where outbreaks are occurring.*
> ...





> Earlier this week, Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar blasted vaccine skeptics and defended the safety and effectiveness of the measles vaccine, calling “the suffering we are seeing … avoidable.”
> 
> “Measles is not a harmless childhood illness, but a highly contagious, potentially life-threatening disease. We have the ability to safely protect our children and our communities,” he said in a statement. “Vaccines are a safe, highly effective public health solution that can prevent this disease. The measles vaccines are among the most extensively studied medical products we have, and their safety has been firmly established over many years in some of the largest vaccine studies ever undertaken.”

----------


## Schifference

> The latest outbreaks of measles have almost 200 students and faculty under quarantine at UCLA and Cal State LA.  I can’t imagine they admit a lot of students with religious exceptions for vaccination.  I wonder where this disease is coming from?  If it was a local infection, I think you would see outbreaks in other places because students have been home or on vacation during Spring Break.  There should be outbreaks at elementary or secondary schools in their home areas, or at places of business where parents work. That’s what logic says, anyway.
> 
> I don’t know what it is like out in California, but daughter had to show proof of immunization before she could attend class at college here in TN, even though she lived at home.  One would think there would be almost 100% vaccination rates on college campuses.


Probably a mutated version of the disease. Soon people will be begging big pharma to develop a new vaccine to stop it.

----------


## donnay

> https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...crisis-1290720


This was disappointing to hear.  Trump needs to step back a bit and allow his vaccine commission, he appointed, to provide him the evidence--which they have a lot.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> This was disappointing to hear.  Trump needs to step back a bit *and allow his vaccine commission, he appointed, to provide him the evidence-*-which they have a lot.


Another "program" with a big announcement that went nowhere. His voter fraud was similarly quietly closed after finding nothing. 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...kennedy-autism




> *Trump appears to abandon vaccine sceptic group denounced by scientists
> *
> 
> Robert F Kennedy Jr claimed to be leading a review of links to autism – *a widely debunked claim* – but now says he hasn’t heard from the White House in months
> 
> Donald Trump appears to have abandoned plans to investigate the spurious link between childhood immunisations and autism, a move welcomed by experts but condemned by Robert F Kennedy Jr, a vaccine sceptic.
> 
> The son of former US attorney general Bobby Kennedy met Trump in New York during the presidential transition in January last year and announced that he had been asked to chair a commission to review vaccine safety.
> 
> ...





> Kennedy describes himself as *“pro-vaccine” but has campaigned against the use of thimerosal*, a preservative used in vaccines made from mercury, and launched a group called the World Mercury Project, backed by anti-vaxxers. He argues that parents should choose whether their children are vaccinated.


Thimerisol was removed from children's vaccines over a decade ago.

----------


## Swordsmyth

Renowned scientists career ended abruptly when she discovered there were retroviruses in our vaccines.

----------


## euphemia

Its still a lot of cases for that age group.  Im puzzled by it.  Im interested to see where the disease came from and where it is going next.  A fairly small Jewish enclave that lives, educates, and worships in a specific area does not compare to an international community that could have been anywhere in the last month or so.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Renowned scientist’s career ended abruptly when she discovered there were retroviruses in our vaccines.



She was arrested for stealing equipment and property from the lab she worked at. (charges later dropped). Then she participated in a study which disproved your article and her own theory. 

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2012...-judy-mikovits




> Mikovits told ScienceInsider that the only work she has been able to find has been collaborating on a large study funded by the National Institutes of Health that should be the final word on the otherwise dismissed theory that CFS is linked to a mouse retrovirus, XMRV, or its relatives. "Everyone who wanted to work with me was deterred by the threat of litigation," Mikovits wrote in an e-mail.
> 
> *The results of the large study, led by Ian Lipkin of Columbia University, are expected to be revealed in the next few weeks.*


That study which examined Mikovits's claim of retroviruses disproved it. And she participated with it. 

https://www.mailman.columbia.edu/pub...uspect-viruses




> CHRONIC DISEASE Sep. 17 2012
> 
> *MULTI-SITE BLINDED STUDY PUTS TO REST THE NOTION THAT THESE VIRUSES CAUSE THE MYSTERIOUS AILMENT*
> 
> The causes of chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) have long eluded scientists. In 2009, a paper in the journal Science linked the syndrome—sometimes called myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME)—to infection with a mouse retrovirus called XMRV (xenotropic murine leukemia virus (MLV)-related virus). Given that affected patients often have symptoms consistent with a chronic infection, this viral connection seemed plausible, and the findings were celebrated as a major achievement for a complex disease that afflicts nearly 1 million in the U.S. Another study in early 2010 published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences detected murine retrovirus-like sequences (designated pMLV: polytropic MLV) in CFS/ME patients, which provided further support for a viral theory.
> 
> Follow-up investigations by several laboratories were unable to detect XMRV or pMLV in CFS patients. However, none of them examined a sufficiently large population of well-characterized CFS/ME patients to rigorously test the validity of those findings.  In the absence of a definitive study, many in the general public may have retained the opinion that XMRV and/or pMLV are responsible for the disease, and some clinicians continue the “off-label” prescription of antiretroviral drugs.
> 
> To definitively resolve this issue, the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, part of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), commissioned a study under the auspices of the Center for Infection and Immunity at Columbia University’s Mailman School of Public Health, in partnership with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the Food and Drug Administration, and the NIH’s National Cancer Institute and Warren G. Magnuson Clinical Center.





> *Statement from Dr. Mikovits*, the author of the Science paper wherein XMRV was first linked to CFS: “I greatly appreciated the opportunity to fully participate in this unprecedented study. Unprecedented because of the level of collaboration, the integrity of the investigators, and the commitment of the NIH to provide its considerable resources to the CFS community for this important study. Although I am *disappointed that we found no association of XMRV/pMLV to CFS,* the silver lining is that our 2009 Science report resulted in global awareness of this crippling disease and has sparked new interest in CFS research. I am dedicated to continuing to work with leaders in the field of pathogen discovery in the effort to determine the etiologic agent for CFS."

----------


## donnay

> She was arrested for stealing equipment and property from the lab she worked at. (charges later dropped). Then she participated in a study which disproved your article and her own theory. 
> 
> https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2012...-judy-mikovits
> 
> 
> 
> That study which examined Mikovits's claim of retroviruses disproved it. And she participated with it. 
> 
> https://www.mailman.columbia.edu/pub...uspect-viruses


As usual Zippy Juan Williams finds the articles that malign Dr. Judy Mikovits.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> As usual Zippy Juan Williams finds the articles that malign Dr. Judy Mikovits.


She participated in the study which disproved her theory of retroviruses in vaccines.

----------


## donnay

> She participated in the study which disproved her theory of retroviruses in vaccines.


She is a whistleblower so of course the spiel is going to be said it was disproved.




> Dr. Judy A. Mikovits earned a BA in Chemistry with a specialization in biology from the University of Virginia in 1980 and a PhD in biochemistry and molecular biology from George Washington University in 1992.
> 
> Upon graduation from UVA, she went directly to the National Cancer Institute in Frederick Maryland where she developed purification methods for Interferon alpha. It was this Interferon which was used in the first immune therapy treatment for hairy cell leukemia in 1986.  In 1986-7, prior to enrolling in graduate school. she went to Upjohn Pharmaceuticals in Kalamazoo Michigan to develop production methods to insure biological materials manufactured using human blood products were free of contamination from HIV-1.  Her PhD thesis defense entitled  “Negative Regulation of HIV Expression in Monocytes” changed the paradigm for therapeutic treatment of HIV. For this work, she was awarded the graduate student of the year in 1991.  In her thirty-five-year quest to understand and develop therapies for chronic diseases, she has co-authored seminal papers culminating at least a decade of research in each of four fields: immunology, natural products chemistry, epigenetics, and HIV/AIDs drug development.  
> 
> In 2006, Dr.  Mikovits became attracted to the plight of families with neuroimmune diseases including ME/CFS and Autism and was primarily responsible for demonstrating the relationship between environmentally acquired immune dysfunction, chronic inflammation and these diseases. Her pioneering work during a twenty year career at the National Cancer Institute includes the discovery of the modulation of DNA Methylation machinery by human retro viral infection and the development of the concept of inflammatory cytokines and chemokine signatures of infection and disease, which was first published in 1999, when Dr. Mikovits directed the Laboratory of Antiviral Drug Mechanisms in developing therapeutics and diagnostics for HIV/AIDS and AIDS associated malignancies. Therapies which are still standard of care twenty five years later and credited with saving millions of deaths from HIV/AIDS. In 2001, she moved back to industry where she directed the Cancer Biology program of EpiGenX Pharmaceuticals.  
> 
> The company focused on the development multiplex diagnostic epigenetic and proteomics expression technologies for the prediction of Immune Related Adverse Events to chemotherapy in susceptible populations. In 2006 she co-founded and developed the first neuroimmune research institute dedicated to understanding the pathophysiology of Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and related illnesses. In five short years, she won more than 6 million dollars of NIH/DOD competitive funding in grants and contracts for this program. In 2009, Drs. Ruscetti and Mikovits' labs isolated for the first time a new family of human retroviruses then identified as XMRV. In 2012 it was learned XMRV was a contaminant of the Silverman lab and the XMRVs isolated were a new human exogenous and transmissible retrovirus family, which are strongly associated with neuroimmune disease and cancer.  This new family of pathogenic human retroviruses is now called HGRV.  Dr. Mikovits has co-authored more than 50 peer reviewed publications and book chapters and the book Plague: One Scientist’s Intrepid Search for the Truth about Human Retroviruses and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Autism, and Other Diseases.
> 
> Dr. Judy Mikovits' site: www.plaguethebook.com 
> ...


From plaguethebook.com 
http://www.qmamedia.com/show-updates...he-book-plague

----------


## Zippyjuan

> She is a whistleblower *so of course the spiel is going to be said it was disproved.*



Not a spiel.  She even issued a statement agreeing with the findings of the study that disproved her theory on Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and retroviruses. 

From my earlier link:




> *Statement from Dr. Mikovits*, the author of the Science paper wherein XMRV was first linked to CFS: “I greatly appreciated the opportunity to fully participate in this unprecedented study. Unprecedented because of the level of collaboration, the integrity of the investigators, and the commitment of the NIH to provide its considerable resources to the CFS community for this important study. Although *I am disappointed that we found no association of XMRV/pMLV to CFS,* the silver lining is that our 2009 Science report resulted in global awareness of this crippling disease and has sparked new interest in CFS research. I am dedicated to continuing to work with leaders in the field of pathogen discovery in the effort to determine the etiologic agent for CFS."

----------


## Schifference



----------


## angelatc

> It’s still a lot of cases for that age group.  I’m puzzled by it.  I’m interested to see where the disease came from and where it is going next.  A fairly small Jewish enclave that lives, educates, and worships in a specific area does not compare to an international community that could have been anywhere in the last month or so.


It's been established that patient 0 came over from Israel.

----------


## Schifference



----------


## donnay



----------


## donnay



----------


## Schifference



----------


## angelatc

> 


I like the quote from Eula Biss but she looks quite condescending .

----------


## donnay

> *UPS helps big pharma: Vaccines made ‘easy’ for all adults in their home*
> 
> by: Sara Middleton, staff writer | April 26, 2019
> 
> Big Pharma and big government will celebrate the latest news about vaccines.  UPS (United Parcel Service) and pharmaceutical conglomerates will likely tout it as a progressive innovation that aims to protect adults and improve public health through such faulty logic as “herd immunity.”
> 
> What is this news exactly?  In short, it’s a new pilot vaccination project between UPS and vaccine manufacturer Merck. The pilot intends to ship vaccines all over the country and have them administered by “professionals” within your very own home.
> 
> Concerned about vaccines?  ‘Don’t worry’ says big pharma and UPS, as they roll out plans to make it easier to get vaccinated – but, at what cost?
> ...


https://www.naturalhealth365.com/vaccines-ups-2955.html

----------


## donnay

> *Childhood Shingles Resulting from Chickenpox Vaccination: “Rare” or Predictable?*
> 
> By the Children’s Health Defense Team
> 
> 
> From the inception of mass vaccination, childhood vaccines have produced a raft of unintended consequences. One of the biggest problems—gaining steam over the past several decades—involves the vaccine-induced creation of brand-new risks and vulnerabilities that can be more serious than the condition a given vaccine might be intended to address.
> 
> The varicella (chickenpox) vaccine represents a case in point. Chickenpox, usually mild when experienced in childhood, was once a routine rite of passage. After the rollout of universal varicella vaccination, the incidence of chickenpox declined but observers began noticing a “’perverse’ boom” in shingles (also called herpes zoster). Chickenpox and shingles infections both stem from varicella zoster virus—and before the advent of the varicella vaccine, children infected with chickenpox helped boost adults’ immunity to shingles by inhibiting the latent virus’s reactivation. Chickenpox vaccination disrupted this intergenerational protective mechanism, not only eliminating regular boosting for adults but shifting downward the average age at which shingles occurs. In addition , because varicella vaccine-induced immunity decreases by 8% with each year since vaccination, previously vaccinated young adults are at increased risk for varicella outbreaks and potential complications later in life. In short, while the reduced circulation of wild chickenpox virus may spare some healthy children a benign case of chickenpox, children now face the more serious risk of developing shingles at young ages and chickenpox at older ages.
> 
> ...


https://childrenshealthdefense.org/n...r-predictable/

----------


## donnay

> *Can there ever be a sensible discussion about vaccines & why they are not safe?*
> 
> By Activist Post -  April 27, 2019
> 
> What one learns as the most important and irreversible axiom of U.S. law is that FACT or TRUTH is the ultimate legal defense, which cannot be nullified!  However, that principle apparently does not apply to pharmacological science where FRAUD and corporate vested interests reign supreme, especially in vaccinology, a science rendered as “consensus” not actual and factual, as has been divulged by numerous whistleblowers over the last several years.  Even U.S. federal health agencies, i.e., the FDA, are known for their fraudulent ways.
> 
> During two decades as editor of the prestigious The New England Journal of Medicine, Doctor Angell experienced ‘up-close and personal’ such appalling behavior on the part of the pharmaceutical industry that she authored a virtual exposé titled, The Truth About the Drug Companies  —  How They Deceive Us, and What to Do About It.  More recently, Professor Light, who edited the book The Risks of Prescription Drugs,takes us to a new level of understanding of how our health and safety are being compromised by falsified science, agencies run amok, and clever industry marketing. In two other well argued, erudite books, Global Censorship of Health Information and The Rise of Tyranny —  How Federal Agencies Abuse Power and Pose Risks to Your Life and Liberty, authored by a brilliant constitutional attorney, Jonathan Emord shows how frighteningly lawless some of our regulatory agencies have become. Emord tells us, “…FDA refuses to honor five decisions holding its censorship unconstitutional.”1
> 
> An attorney in the FDA Chief Counsel’s office regarding a court order to FDA made this really shocking statement, “Jonathan, the FDA will never abide by the Pearson decision.”2
> ...


https://www.intellihub.com/can-there...-are-not-safe/

----------


## angelatc

What a $#@!in tool she is.

We should all trust the word of a "natural nutritionist" whatever the $#@! that is instead of people who have graduate degrees in things like epidemiology and immunology.  

Because the evil capitalists something something something ..... cabal!

----------


## Zippyjuan

> https://www.intellihub.com/can-there...-are-not-safe/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				While child mortality progressively declined across all countries, mortality in the US has been higher than in peer nations since the 1980s. From 2001 to 2010 the risk of death in the US was 76 percent greater for infants and 57 percent greater for children ages 1–19.


Well, the other countries DO have higher vaccination rates than the us.  And health insurance for everybody.

----------


## angelatc

> Well, the other countries DO have higher vaccination rates than the us.  And health insurance for everybody.


Also, as has been pointed out multiple times with no acknowledgement and apparently to no avail, there's no standard for reporting infant mortality.  Without getting into the nuances again (since it's pointless) the US is far and away more likely to record a birth as Live than almost other countries.  In fact, one stat I remember off the top of my head is that a lot of nations don't even record stillbirths in their infant mortality stats.  

Now she'll probably post something about polio not really being polio, because that's been explained about 100 times as well.

----------


## donnay

> Well, the other countries DO have higher vaccination rates than the us.  And health insurance for everybody.


The US has the highest vaccines rates compared to all the other countries.  Please stop lying.


Sweden Bans Mandatory Vaccinations over 'Serious Heath Concerns'
https://www.organicconsumers.org/new...heath-concerns

Japan Leads the Way: No Vaccine Mandates and No MMR Vaccine = Healthier Children
https://childrenshealthdefense.org/n...hier-children/

----------


## Zippyjuan

> The* US has the highest vaccines rates compared to all the other countries. * Please stop lying.
> 
> 
> Sweden Bans Mandatory Vaccinations over 'Serious Heath Concerns'
> https://www.organicconsumers.org/new...heath-concerns
> 
> Japan Leads the Way: No Vaccine Mandates and No MMR Vaccine = Healthier Children
> https://childrenshealthdefense.org/n...hier-children/


Vaccination Rates in OECD countries:   https://data.oecd.org/healthcare/chi...tion-rates.htm

Out of 44 countries in the list of vaccination rates for the DPT vaccine, only eleven countries of that 44 have a lower vaccination rate than the US.

For the measles, only five have lower vaccination rates than the US out of 44. 

Interactive chart at link- diamonds represent measles vaccine rates and the circles or dots are the DPT vaccine.

This site lists DPT vaccination rates for 100 countries.  It has the US 98th place at 94%- only better than Armenia and Brazil. 

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/...worldwide.html

----------


## angelatc

> The US has the highest vaccines rates compared to all the other countries.  Please stop lying.


The $#@!?  Even Mexico had better vaccine rates than we did last time I checked.  Again, something that's been pointed out to you over and over and over.

----------


## RonZeplin

*Vaccinators in Pakistan gunned down, local vaccine skeptics say our children are healthy*

Editors  note: These reports come after 25,000 children were sickened, allegedly  after their Polio vaccine. Mainstream says they were not sickened by  the vaccine and that is a rumor. Thoughts? (see links at bottom) RIP to  all killed.

    MABAD  Two gunmen on  motorcycle shot and killed a polio vaccinator in the southwestern  Pakistani city of Chaman on Thursday, bringing the death toll among  vaccinators working in the countrys anti-polio drive to at least three  this week, officials said.

The  shooters opened fire on a group of vaccinators when they were at the  front gate of a house in the remote village of Sultan Zai, near the  border with Afghanistan, said Samiullah Agha, who is the assistant  commissioner of Chaman.

Two members  of the vaccination team were hit: Nasreen Bibi, 35, was killed, and  Rashida Afzal, 24, was critically wounded, Mr. Agha said in an  interview. Vaccination was suspended for an indeterminate period of time  in the Chaman area after the shooting.

The gunmen fled after the attack, Mr. Agha added. Security forces have launched a search operation in the area.

Polio  vaccination teams have suffered several attacks since a countrywide  vaccination drive began on April 23. Polio workers, volunteers and their  guards are frequently targeted in the South Asian country.

https://governmentslaves.news/2019/0...n-are-healthy/

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Editor’s note: These reports come after *25,000 children were sickened*, allegedly after their Polio vaccine. Mainstream says they were not sickened by the vaccine and that is a rumor. Thoughts? (*see links at bottom*) RIP to all killed.


Not even sick- just panicked by a rumor.  From your own link:




> This is despite the fact that vaccination efforts in Pakistan have often been the subject of suspicion and *unfounded rumors that suggest the vaccines harm children.*
> 
> More than 25,000 children were rushed to hospitals in northwestern Pakistan on Monday *after rumors that polio drops were making children sick, creating a panic.*
> 
> A man, Nazar Gul, was detained this month on suspicion of conspiring against the polio vaccination campaign after a video went viral that showed Mr. Gul *urging students to pretend to faint after immunization*.


(article does not contain the promised link to the story of 25,000 kids sickened by a vaccine- I wonder why? Is it fake?)

Editor note suggests kids being harmed by the thousands yet at the bottom it says that this is unfounded.

"Original source: Health Nut News".  No links there either.

Who is Health Nut News?    Erin Elizabeth.  http://americanloons.blogspot.com/20...elizabeth.html




> Erin Elizabeth is Joe Mercola’s girlfriend. Elizabeth runs healthnutnews, one of the currently more popular sites devoted to quackery and medical pseudoscience on the Internet, and is pushing pretty much the same line as Mercola with natural, untested “cures” for all sorts of ailments, backed up by pseudoscience, anecdotes, and occasional forays into technobabble. The website also pushes the usual science denialist stuff, including anti-GMO conspiracies.

----------


## angelatc

> Not even sick- just panicked by a rumor.  From your own link:
> 
> 
> 
> (article does not contain the promised link to the story of 25,000 kids sickened by a vaccine- I wonder why? Is it fake?)
> 
> Editor note suggests kids being harmed by the thousands yet at the bottom it says that this is unfounded.


Antivaxxers are nutjobs.  




> Pakistan authorities arrested Naz Gul earlier this month for undermining the vaccination efforts. In a viral video, he encourages children to act sick after taking the vaccine drops.


What a hellhole.

----------


## devil21

Go check out this organization to see who and what is driving the vaccine agenda.  In short, a bunch of British/Harvard trained banker stooges making the world "safe" for bankers to control the entire planet via UN Agenda 2030.

https://www.gavi.org/about/governanc...oard/members/#

----------


## donnay

> Vaccination Rates in OECD countries:   https://data.oecd.org/healthcare/chi...tion-rates.htm
> 
> Out of 44 countries in the list of vaccination rates for the DPT vaccine, only eleven countries of that 44 have a lower vaccination rate than the US.
> 
> For the measles, only five have lower vaccination rates than the US out of 44. 
> 
> Interactive chart at link- diamonds represent measles vaccine rates and the circles or dots are the DPT vaccine.
> 
> This site lists DPT vaccination rates for 100 countries.  It has the US 98th place at 94%- only better than Armenia and Brazil. 
> ...


https://www.fourteenstudies.org/nowwhat.html

----------


## donnay

> *EXPOSED: WORLD RENOWNED VACCINE SCIENTIST'S SHOCKING LEGAL DEPOSITION NOW PUBLIC*
> 
> 
> 
> Throughout recent history, a handful of high-water marks have threatened to expose the falsehood of the vaccine industry’s ‘safe and effective’ narrative.
> 
> Two days after receiving five vaccines at once, 19 month-old Hannah Poling began her regression into her eventual autism spectrum disorder diagnosis. Hannah's case eventually became part of over 5,000 cases in the now historic Autism Omnibus Proceedings (OAP) in 2007. Rather than try over 5,000 cases, the plaintiffs and vaccine court Special Masters choose six test cases to represent all the families who claimed vaccines caused their child's autism. Originally deemed a test case to set a vaccine court precedent that vaccines could contribute to the onset of autism spectrum disorder, Hannah’s case didn’t go how the Department of Justice (DOJ) attorneys had originally hoped.
> 
> Expert witness in the OAP cases, Dr. Andrew Zimmerman, gave his professional opinion that vaccines can lead to autism in a certain subset of children, which included Hannah, with an underlying mitochondrial disorder. His testimony triggered a panic at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), the DOJ and corporate media outlets. It led to a quick twenty-million-dollar settlement with the Polings in 2010 but not before Hannah’s story became worldwide news.
> ...


https://www.jeffereyjaxen.com/blog/e...ion-now-public

----------


## Working Poor

> Antivaxxers are nutjobs.


I hope to God that none of your loved ones are ever harmed by vaccines. If they are you will find my arms open to you and my heart breaking with you.

----------


## Schifference

> I hope to God that none of your loved ones are ever harmed by vaccines. If they are you will find my arms open to you and my heart breaking with you.


I hope to God that none of your loved ones are ever harmed for failure to get a vaccine. If they are you will find my arms open to you and my heart breaking with you.

----------


## donnay

> I hope to God that none of your loved ones are ever harmed for failure to get a vaccine. If they are you will find my arms open to you and my heart breaking with you.


Tell that to the families who have had children, injured / maimed / killed by vaccines and had no legal recourse because the vaccines makers were given immunity against direct liability.  Nice little racket they have going.  If anyone has blood on their hands it is them, and congress.  

The USS McHenry proves that "Herd Immunity" is a myth.  Those sailors and marines have been quarantined since December of last year with mumps, of which they were vaccinated for.  It also questions the efficacy of the vaccine.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> https://www.fourteenstudies.org/nowwhat.html


Link does not say that the US has the highest vaccination rates in the world.  Just to clarify- the vaccination rate means the percent of the population which has been vaccinated against a particular disease/ illness.

----------


## angelatc

> I hope to God that none of your loved ones are ever harmed by vaccines. If they are you will find my arms open to you and my heart breaking with you.


The odds of my loved ones being harmed by a vaccine are infinitesimal compared to the odds of them being harmed by the diseases the vaccines prevent.  Math trumps feelz in people driven by logic.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> https://www.fourteenstudies.org/nowwhat.html


Since this is your response to his post claiming that the US does not have the highest vaccination rates, the only reasonable way to interpret this is as an apology from you and an admission that it turns out he was right about that after all.

----------


## Working Poor

> I hope to God that none of your loved ones are ever harmed for failure to get a vaccine. If they are you will find my arms open to you and my heart breaking with you.


I have  many loved ones harmed by vaccines but not one was harmed by contracting Mumps measles, rubella, flu or, chicken pox.

----------


## Schifference

> I have  many loved ones harmed by vaccines but not one was harmed by contracting Mumps measles, rubella, flu or, chicken pox.


Is it possible they were not harmed by Mumps, measles, rubella, flu or, chicken pox because you have many loved ones that were vaccinated?

----------


## donnay

> Link does not say that the US has the highest vaccination rates in the world.  Just to clarify- the vaccination rate means the percent of the population which has been vaccinated against a particular disease/ illness.


Yes, my mistake for not clarifying.  I was pointing out how many vaccines are expected to be taken in the US Vs. other countries. 
We had far less vaccines when I was a kid and less chronic illnesses than we have today.  The doses they are giving children today are extraordinary.  Every parent should do their own research and ask lots of questions--if answers are not forthcoming (as in many cases), then they should wait until answers are made.  Every parent has a duty to protect their children.

https://www.learntherisk.org/wp-cont...3/Doses_v2.pdf

----------


## Schifference

> Yes, my mistake for not clarifying.  I was pointing out how many vaccines are expected to be taken in the US Vs. other countries. 
> We had far less vaccines when I was a kid and less chronic illnesses than we have today.  The doses they are giving children today are extraordinary.  Every parent should do their own research and ask lots of questions--if answers are not forthcoming (as in many cases), then they should wait until answers are made.  Every parent has a duty to protect their children.
> 
> https://www.learntherisk.org/wp-cont...3/Doses_v2.pdf


Most choose to protect their children by administering vaccinations.

----------


## donnay

> Since this is your response to his post claiming that the US does not have the highest vaccination rates, the only reasonable way to interpret this is as an apology from you and an admission that it turns out he was right about that after all.


I already answered that.  I make no apologies.  Children are required more vaccines and we have the sickest children.  The countries that halted their mandatory programs, like Japan, are seeing healthier children.

Also the fact that the vaccine manufactures are not liable if your child is hurt by the vaccines.  The VAERS court payout are paid for by taxpayers.

----------


## donnay

> Most choose to protect their children by administering vaccinations.


That's because people hold too much trust in thinking they're being told the truth.  All a parent would have to do is read the vaccine inserts.  Parents that are informed know this, and that is the point of a REAL vaccine debate / discussion.  Big pHARMa has control of the media and has a strong-hold on a lot of doctors and nurses.  Every once in a while, one has a conscience and comes forward and questions vaccines--however they are maligned, character assassinated and basically drummed out of a job.

It truly is like dealing with the mafia.

----------


## Schifference

The diet of the Japanese could have something to do with their overall health. Only 3.6 percent of Japanese have a body mass index (BMI) over 30, which is the international standard for obesity, whereas 32.0 percent of Americans do.

----------


## donnay

> The diet of the Japanese could have something to do with their overall health. Only 3.6 percent of Japanese have a body mass index (BMI) over 30, which is the international standard for obesity, whereas 32.0 percent of Americans do.


Yes indeed.  All of that should be taken into consideration and researched.  Do you know since 1986 when Reagan signed the liability protection to vaccine manufactors, part of that agreement was for HHS to conduct (every two year) independent safety studies...do you know how many were done since then?  ZERO.

ETA:
https://www.aimintegrativemedicine.c...ine-safety-won

----------


## Schifference

A vocal fringe of parents in the United States oppose vaccines, believing, contrary to scientific evidence, that ingredients in them can cause autism.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Is it possible they were not harmed by Mumps, measles, rubella, flu or, chicken pox because you have many loved ones that were vaccinated?


Obviously she is saying that they got mumps, measles, rubella, flu or, chicken pox and were not harmed.

----------


## Schifference

> Obviously she is saying that they got mumps, measles, rubella, flu or, chicken pox and were not harmed.


Oftentimes things are not as obvious as they seem.

----------


## donnay

> A vocal fringe of parents in the United States oppose vaccines, believing, contrary to scientific evidence, that ingredients in them can cause autism.


So scientific evidence that was bought and paid for by whom?

Did you happen to catch this?







> Today we investigate one of the biggest medical controversies of our time: vaccines. There’s little dispute about this much-- vaccines save many lives, and rarely, they injure or kill. A special federal vaccine court has paid out billions for injuries from brain damage to death. But not for the form of brain injury we call autism. Now—we have remarkable new information: a respected pro-vaccine medical expert used by the federal government to debunk the vaccine-autism link, says vaccines can cause autism after all. He claims he told that to government officials long ago, but they kept it secret.

----------


## Stratovarious

> I already answered that.  I make no apologies.  Children are required more vaccines and we have the sickest children.  The countries that halted their mandatory programs, like Japan, are seeing healthier children.
> 
> Also the fact that the vaccine manufactures are not liable if your child is hurt by the vaccines.  The VAERS court payout _are paid for by taxpayers_.


 That is a _horrible feature_, one I have not heard about.

The Court is a sham to be sure, but I hadn't heard that Pharm does not pay.
...and of course it's also set up so that no blame is placed on Big Pharma , the can kill us all 
and not be 'blamed' .

----------


## donnay

> That is a _horrible feature_, one I have not heard about.
> 
> The Court is a sham to be sure, but I hadn't heard that Pharm does not pay.
> ...and of course it's also set up so that no blame is placed on Big Pharma , the can kill us all 
> and not be 'blamed' .


You're absolutely right on both counts.  Most people have no idea who pays the claims that win--over 4 billion thus far, and that's just a small portion in reality.  Most parents do not even know they can petition VAERS in many cases.  There is also a statute of limitations on claims.

HHS oversees *all* cases.  Yet they couldn't bother to do any independent vaccine safety test in 30 years.  No conflict of interest here, right?

----------


## donnay

> Oftentimes things are not as obvious as they seem.


You should take your own advice.

----------


## Swordsmyth

An  explosion in Measles in Ukraine occurred as they suddenly increased a  vaccination campaign, leading some to wonder if the vaccine might have  been “hot.”

----------


## Swordsmyth

Naval Warship still under quarantine at sea since Dec 2018 due to a Mumps outbreak that is vaccine resistant

----------


## Stratovarious

> You're absolutely right on both counts.  Most people have no idea who pays the claims that win--over 4 billion thus far, and that's just a small portion in reality.  Most parents do not even know they can petition VAERS in many cases.  There is also a statute of limitations on claims.
> 
> HHS oversees *all* cases.  Yet they couldn't bother to do any independent vaccine safety test in 30 years.  No conflict of interest here, right?


Yes , indeed.

What is troubling is that even the articles that I read that pointed out the 'shame' kangaroo , fake court, 
no on mentioned the fact that Pharm doesn't even pay , very disturbing , that exponentially increases/fattens 
the sham.

----------


## donnay

> Yes , indeed.
> 
> What is troubling is that even the articles that I read that pointed out the 'shame' kangaroo , fake court, 
> no on mentioned the fact that Pharm doesn't even pay , very disturbing , that exponentially increases/fattens 
> the sham.



https://childrenshealthdefense.org/n...keep-climbing/

Sweet deal for Big pHARMa isn't it.  But we are supposed to blindly believe that vaccines saved the world!

----------


## donnay

> Naval Warship still under quarantine at sea since Dec 2018 due to a Mumps outbreak that is vaccine resistant


Breaks up that myth about "Herd Immunity" doesn't it?  All service personnel are vaccinated for MMR.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Breaks up that myth about "Herd Immunity" doesn't it?  All service personnel are vaccinated for MMR.


Yup.

----------


## Danke

> Naval Warship still under quarantine at sea since Dec 2018 due to a Mumps outbreak that is vaccine resistant





> An explosion in Measles in Ukraine occurred as they suddenly increased a vaccination campaign, leading some to wonder if the vaccine might have been “hot.”

----------


## donnay



----------


## Stratovarious

> https://childrenshealthdefense.org/n...keep-climbing/
> 
> Sweet deal for Big pHARMa isn't it.  But we are supposed to blindly believe that vaccines saved the world!


Corruption is to kind of a word.

----------


## Swordsmyth

*“DTP Was Associated with 5-Fold Higher Mortality Than Being Unvaccinated.”*Via: EBioMedicine:
_DTP was associated with 5-fold higher mortality than being  unvaccinated. No prospective study has shown beneficial survival effects  of DTP. Unfortunately, DTP is the most widely used vaccine, and the  proportion who receives DTP3 is used globally as an indicator of the  performance of national vaccination programs._
_It should be of concern that the effect of routine vaccinations on all-cause mortality was not tested in randomized trials. All  currently available evidence suggests that DTP vaccine may kill more  children from other causes than it saves from diphtheria, tetanus or  pertussis. Though a vaccine protects children against the  target disease it may simultaneously increase susceptibility to  unrelated infections._


https://www.cryptogon.com/?p=54851

----------


## angelatc

> The diet of the Japanese could have something to do with their overall health. Only 3.6 percent of Japanese have a body mass index (BMI) over 30, which is the international standard for obesity, whereas 32.0 percent of Americans do.


That Rockwell article was just gish-gallop...anti-vaxxer sleight of hand.


   Directly related, Japan has had 92 deaths from measles in the past 5 years in a population of 127,000,000 compared to our 329,000,000 with 1 death in 2015.

And 


> among developed countries it has high levels of infections of diseases that could easily  be prevented by vaccines.

----------


## angelatc

> *“DTP Was Associated with 5-Fold Higher Mortality Than Being Unvaccinated.”*Via: EBioMedicine:
> _DTP was associated with 5-fold higher mortality than being  unvaccinated. No prospective study has shown beneficial survival effects  of DTP. Unfortunately, DTP is the most widely used vaccine, and the  proportion who receives DTP3 is used globally as an indicator of the  performance of national vaccination programs._
> _It should be of concern that the effect of routine vaccinations on all-cause mortality was not tested in randomized trials. All  currently available evidence suggests that DTP vaccine may kill more  children from other causes than it saves from diphtheria, tetanus or  pertussis. Though a vaccine protects children against the  target disease it may simultaneously increase susceptibility to  unrelated infections._
> 
> 
> https://www.cryptogon.com/?p=54851


Do anti-vaxxers ever actually search for answers before AH_HA! posting?

That study was from 30 years ago.  DPT was the predecessor to the current acellular (vs whole cell) pertussis vaccine.  And the current version has been proven to decrease infant mortality. 

Not saying that the paper was wrong - the side effects are well known and well documented. It led the way for an alternative vaccine to be developed, and actually reshaped global vaccine policy.

This link has a lot of details on both DTP and the current DTaP in the wake of DTP's failures and successes.  




> To understand the history of DTaP, it is necessary to understand the legacy of its wholecell predecessor, DTP (diphtheria, tetanus, and whole-cell pertussis) vaccine. Simply put, over the course of two decades (from the 1970s to the 1990s) safety issues related to the whole-cell pertussis component of DTP drove a series of events that dramatically impacted the vaccine industry, led to a reshaping of vaccine policies and programs, and resulted in an intensive international search for a new, acellular pertussis vaccine
> 
> ...
> 
> Unfortunately, there was also a downside to DTP. While clearly effective in preventing disease, the whole-cell pertussis component was associated with a range of adverse events, including rare but serious neurological consequences.
> 
> ...
> 
> In 1975, in response to the deaths of two infants within 24 hours after DTP vaccination, Japanese health authorities temporarily suspended the routine use of pertussis vaccine in infants, and soon after recommended that immunization against pertussis start instead at age two years. What followed was a decline in immunization coverage and a dramatic increase in pertussis cases and deaths among Japanese children, peaking in 1979 (CDC, 1992d). In Britain, while health authorities continued to recommend routine DTP immunization for infants, the public became increasingly wary of potential adverse effects, and many parents chose not to immunize their children. In the absence of mandates or other enforcement mechanisms, Great Britain, like Japan, experienced a rapid increase in pertussis cases and deaths (Gangarosa et al.,1998).
> ...

----------


## DamianTV

Good grief Angela.

Ok, lets ask the most basic of questions: "who stands to benefit"?  Parents?  Parents that are terrified of which to believe, dangerous diseases or dangerous vaccines?  (NOTE: Some vaccines appear that they can be safe)  Either way, parents may feel like they are playing Russian Roulette.  Parents may think they can benefit by keeping their kids healthy and are acknowledging there are inherit risks with vaccines.  However, a persons wellbeing is often tossed aside when Corporations pay more attention on how to make money.  Corporations will always put their own benefits ahead of those they are supposed to serve.  Parents are NOT in it for financial profit.

But it goes back to square one.  If you are vaccinated, what do you care if others are not?  Is that NOT a persons most basic Right?  That they own themselves?  Do they NOT have a Right to decree what does and what does not go into their bodies?  Are they not allowed to make choices for themselves?  Or is this State Worship as a Religion?  Anyone who questions the Authority of the State should be burned at the stake?  Governments do not exist to protect you.  They exist to keep people in line with their rulers demands.  And the real rulers of the world do not want a happy healthy well informed body politic that has legal Self Authority.  Its no different than asking why Pot is still mostly illegal.  Sure, it may have many uses, and sure pot smokers typically dont hurt others when the smoke a bowl in a responsible way.  Those are just tip of the iceberg arguments.  The real question about both pot and vaccines is whether or not the people are willing to accept Unlimited Authority form an increasingly dangerous government that applies violence for your decision to do what you will with your own body.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Do anti-vaxxers ever actually search for answers before AH_HA! posting?
> 
> That study was from 30 years ago.  DPT was the predecessor to the current acellular (vs whole cell) pertussis vaccine.  And the current version has been proven to decrease infant mortality. 
> 
> Not saying that the paper was wrong - the side effects are well known and well documented. It led the way for an alternative vaccine to be developed, and actually reshaped global vaccine policy.
> 
> This link has a lot of details on both DTP and the current DTaP in the wake of DTP's failures and successes.


I'm glad that the replacement is better but if one vaccine can be worse than the disease it might just be that other vaccines are as well.

Giving the vaccine industry total immunity from any consequences is not a good idea.

----------


## donnay

> *In 2018 Virtually Nobody is Blaming the Unvaccinated Anymore: Failure of the Pertussis Vaccine Universally Accepted World-wide as Vaccinated Population Spreads Whooping Cough*
> 
> Fortunately, for those who took the time to ignore the corporate-sponsored “mainstream” media spin starting in 2013, blaming the small unvaccinated population for whooping cough outbreaks, there were plenty of other studies being published clearly showing that the pertussis vaccine was a failure.
> 
> As more and more studies were published, many of them outside the U.S., it became obvious that not only was the vaccine a failure, but there is strong evidence that modern day whooping cough outbreaks are actually caused by the pertussis vaccine itself.
> 
> *A study* published in the New England Journal of Medicine in 2013 showed that pertussis was developing immunity against the current pertussis vaccine. A researcher from the CDC participated in the study:
> 
> Researchers in other countries have found evidence that circulating strains of Bordetella pertussis have adapted to the acellular vaccine, and researchers today reported similar findings for the first time in U.S. kids, based on genetic analysis of isolates from hospitalized children.
> ...


https://thevaccinereaction.org/2018/...ussis-vaccine/

----------


## angelatc

> I'm glad that the replacement is better but if one vaccine can be worse than the disease it might just be that other vaccines are as well.
> 
> Giving the vaccine industry total immunity from any consequences is not a good idea.


The vaccine wasn't worse than the disease.  You cited a single study, and there were a plethora of other studies from that era that found no such relationship. 

"Might" is why vaccines shouldn't be mandatory, but it's also what separates the anti-vaxxers from sane people.

----------


## angelatc

> Good grief Angela.
> 
> Ok, lets ask the most basic of questions: "who stands to benefit"?


Everybody except the undertakers,  hospitals and the MDs.  Sick kids benefits.  Parents of sick kids benefit.  Employers of sick kids benefit.  People who come into casual contact with carriers benefit.  

Thanks for asking.

----------


## donnay

Excellent interview about the medical tyranny of Big pHARMa:




> Lori Gregory and Dr. Kristin Comella, world-renowned expert on regenerative medicine using a patient’s own stem cells join to talk about the federal government’s unprecedented attempt to regulate our bodies. This new treatment holds amazing potential, which is why government & industry want to control your body, your healthcare, your informed choice and your liberty.

----------


## angelatc

> Excellent interview about the medical tyranny of Big pHARMa:
> 
> 
> ]


"Excellent interview...."  Garbage in, garbage out as they say.

Antivax is a religion.    All hail the high priestess.

----------


## donnay

> "Excellent interview...."  Garbage in, garbage out as they say.
> 
> Antivax is a religion.    All hail the high priestess.



Pseudo-vaccine science worship is a religion too.  It's sad that it has so many false teachings.

There is nothing more intolerable than people who do not want to hear every side of an issue to make their own individual choices.

----------


## navy-vet

The anti vaxers are killing the kids. I bet they are being manipulated by the NWO to help cull the herd.
Keep up the good fight Angelatc, there sure is a lot of blood on the hands of the opposition  the blood of innocents

----------


## donnay

> The anti vaxers are killing the kids. I bet they are being manipulated by the NWO to help cull the herd.
> Keep up the good fight Angelatc, there sure is a lot of blood on the hands of the opposition  the blood of innocents


What says you?  Every single one of those military personnel have been vaccinated.  Just in case you missed this story in this thread.

*The Navy's fighting to get a rare viral mumps outbreak under control after it stranded a US warship at sea*
https://www.businessinsider.com/uss-...utbreak-2019-3

----------


## donnay

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...ame-mumps.aspx

----------


## devil21

It's funny how the tv streaming services have *all* pulled the Brady Bunch's "measles party" episode from their lineups.  Can't have that little bit of inconvenient history creeping into the fear narrative.

----------


## donnay

> It's funny how the tv streaming services have *all* pulled the Brady Bunch's "measles party" episode from their lineups.  Can't have that little bit of inconvenient history creeping into the fear narrative.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Yes , indeed.
> 
> What is troubling is that even the articles that I read that pointed out the 'shame' kangaroo , fake court, 
> no on mentioned *the fact that Pharm doesn't even pay* , very disturbing , that exponentially increases/fattens 
> the sham.



VAERS is funded by fees paid by the vaccine industry.  

https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compens...ata/index.html




> How many petitions have been awarded compensation?
> 
> According to the CDC, from 2006 to 2017 over 3.4 billion doses of covered vaccines were distributed in the U.S.  For petitions filed in this time period, 6,253 petitions were adjudicated by the Court, and of those 4,291 were compensated.* This means for every 1 million doses of vaccine that were distributed, 1 individual was compensated.*
> 
> Since 1988, over 20,522 petitions have been filed with the VICP. Over that 30-year time period, 17,772 petitions have been adjudicated, with 6,465 of those determined to be compensable, while 11,307 were dismissed. Total compensation paid over the life of the program is approximately $4.1 billion.





> What does it mean to be awarded compensation?
> Being awarded compensation for a petition does not necessarily mean that the vaccine caused the alleged injury. In fact:
> 
> *Almost 80% of all compensation awarded by the VICP comes as result of a negotiated settlement between the parties* in which HHS has not concluded, based upon review of the evidence, that the alleged vaccine(s) caused the alleged injury.


It can be cheaper to settle than to go to court. 




> What reasons might a petition result in a negotiated settlement?
> 
> Consideration of prior U.S. Court of Federal Claims decisions, both parties decide to minimize risk of loss through settlement
> 
> A desire to minimize the time and expense of litigating a case  
> 
> The desire to resolve a petition quickly


The $4 billion in compensation figure is over the entire history of the court which was founded in 1988- over 30 years ago. That is an average of $137 million a year. 




> Since 1988, over 20,522 petitions have been filed with the VICP. Over that 30-year time period, 17,772 petitions have been adjudicated, with 6,465 of those determined to be compensable, while 11,307 were dismissed.


That means there are 684 cases flied a year with 215 cases being determined to be compensable per year out of millions of vaccines given.

----------


## donnay

> The Vaccine Injury Compensation Trust Fund provides funding for the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program to compensate vaccine-related injury or death petitions for covered vaccines administered on or after October 1, 1988.
> 
> *Funded by a $.75 excise tax* on vaccines recommended by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for routine administration to children, the excise tax is imposed on each dose (i.e., disease that is prevented) of a vaccine. Trivalent influenza vaccine for example, is taxed $.75 because it prevents one disease; measles-mumps-rubella vaccine, which prevents three diseases, is taxed $2.25.
> 
> The Department of Treasury collects the *excise taxes* and manages the Fund’s investments and produces Vaccine Injury Compensation Trust Fund Monthly Reports.


https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compens...out/index.html




> The VICP is funded by a surcharge on all doses of vaccines recommended by the CDC for "universal use" by all children. Monies from the surcharge are placed in a Trust Fund maintained by the government for use to pay vaccine victims. (By 2018, nearly $4 billion had been awarded to vaccine victims even though two out of three plaintiffs are denied compensation and there was a nearly $3 billion surplus in the VICP Trust Fund).


https://www.nvic.org/faqs/vaccine-in...pensation.aspx

----------


## Swordsmyth

> https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compens...out/index.html
> 
> 
> https://www.nvic.org/faqs/vaccine-in...pensation.aspx


A tax on a product they force you to buy.

----------


## RonZeplin

*Mass sterilization: Kenyan Doctors Find Anti-fertility Agent in UN Tetanus Vaccine*
According to LifeSiteNews,  a Catholic publication, the Kenya Catholic Doctors Association is  charging UNICEF and WHO with sterilizing millions of girls and women  under cover of an anti-tetanus vaccination program sponsored by the  Kenyan government.

 The Kenyan government denies there is anything wrong with the vaccine, and says it is perfectly safe.

The Kenya Catholic Doctors Association, however, saw evidence to the  contrary, and had six different samples of the tetanus vaccine from  various locations around Kenya sent to an independent laboratory in  South Africa for testing.

The results confirmed their worst fears: all six samples tested positive for the HCG antigen. The HCG antigen is used in anti-fertility vaccines,  but was found present in tetanus vaccines targeted to young girls and  women of childbearing age. Dr. Ngare, spokesman for the Kenya Catholic  Doctors Association, stated in a bulletin released November 4:
This proved right our worst fears; that this WHO  campaign is not about eradicating neonatal tetanus but a  well-coordinated forceful population control mass sterilization exercise  using a proven fertility regulating vaccine. This evidence was  presented to the Ministry of Health before the third round of  immunization but was ignored. (Source.)
Dr. Ngare brought up several points about the mass tetanus  vaccination program in Kenya that caused the Catholic doctors to become  suspicious:
Dr. Ngare told LifeSiteNews that several things alerted  doctors in the Churchs far-flung medical system of 54 hospitals, 83  health centres, and 17 medical and nursing schools to the possibility  the anti-tetanus campaign was secretly an anti-fertility campaign.

Why, they ask does it involve an unprecedented five shots (or jabs  as they are known, in Kenya) over more than two years and why is it  applied only to women of childbearing years, and why is it being  conducted without the usual fanfare of government publicity?

Usually we give a series three shots over two to three years, we  give it anyone who comes into the clinic with an open wound, men, women  or children. said Dr. Ngare.

But it is the five vaccination regime that is most alarming. The  only time tetanus vaccine has been given in five doses is when it is  used as a carrier in fertility regulating vaccines laced with the  pregnancy hormone, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) developed by WHO  in 1992. (Source.)*
UNICEF: A History of Taking Advantage of Disasters to Mass Vaccinate*

 It should be noted that UNICEF and WHO distribute these vaccines for  free, and that there are financial incentives for the Kenyan government  to participate in these programs. When funds from the UN are not enough  to purchase yearly allotments of vaccines, an organization started and  funded by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, GAVI, provides extra  funding for many of these vaccination programs in poor countries. (See: Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation Vaccine Empire on Trial in India.)

Also, there was no outbreak of tetanus in Kenya, only the perceived threat of tetanus due to local flood conditions.

These local disasters are a common reason UNICEF goes into poorer  countries with free vaccines to begin mass vaccination programs.
 Health Impact News reported last year that UNICEF began a similar  mass vaccination program with 500,000 doses of live oral polio vaccine  in the Philippines after a Super Typhoon devastated Tacolban and  surrounding areas. This was in spite of the fact there were no reported  cases of polio in the Philippines since 1993, and people who have  had the live polio vaccine can shed the virus into sewage systems,  thereby causing the actual disease it is supposed to be preventing.  (See: No Polio in the 

Philippines Since 1993, But Mass Polio Vaccination Program Targeted for 500,000 Typhoon Victims Under Age 5.)

A very similar mass vaccination with the live oral polio vaccine  occurred among Syrian refugees in 2013, when 1.7 million doses of polio  vaccine were purchased by UNICEF, in spite of the fact that no cases of  polio had been seen since 1999. After the mass vaccination program  started, cases of polio began to reappear in Syria. (See: Are UNICEF Live Polio Vaccines Causing Polio Among Syrians? 1.7 Billion Polio Vaccines Purchased by UNICEF.)

https://healthimpactnews.com/2014/ma...tanus-vaccine/

----------


## donnay



----------


## donnay

Just a coincidence, I suppose...




> BUSINESS NEWSAPRIL 30, 2019 / 7:31 AM / UPDATED 20 HOURS AGO
> 
> *Merck raises full-year forecasts as vaccines power profit beat*
> 
> Manas Mishra
> 
> 
> (Reuters) - Merck & Co Inc reported higher-than-expected first-quarter profit on Tuesday on increased demand for vaccines and cancer immunotherapy Keytruda, and the U.S. drugmaker raised its 2019 earnings and revenue forecasts.
> 
> ...


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-m...-idUSKCN1S616K

----------


## Schifference

> Pseudo-vaccine science worship is a religion too.  It's sad that it has so many false teachings.
> 
> There is nothing more intolerable than people who do not want to hear every side of an issue to make their own individual choices.


I do not think you can put Angelatc into a category where people do not want to hear every side of the issue. I believe she has heard and scrutinized every side and has made her decision. You have made yours. Agree to disagree. She in not on a mission to convince people to get vaccinated. You on the other hand are on a mission to tell people not to get vaccinated.

----------


## donnay

> I do not think you can put Angelatc into a category where people do not want to hear every side of the issue. I believe she has heard and scrutinized every side and has made her decision. You have made yours. Agree to disagree. She in not on a mission to convince people to get vaccinated. You on the other hand are on a mission to tell people not to get vaccinated.


LOL!  Guess you missed her signature:




> Anti-vaxxers, responsible for a 30 percent uptick in totally preventable diseases in the world, have blood on their hands. They shouldn't be considered civilized members of society. If they refuse to listen to a century of scientific studies confirming time and time again that vaccination is an unquestionable good for humanity, then it's time for us to start treating anti-vaxxers as what they are: dangerous and worthy of shame and condemnation. If we can't convince anti-vaxxers to change their minds, we must attach enough social stigma to the delusion that agnostics cease to join them.


Not to mention, she uses pejoratives to try and knock down anyone who doesn't think like her.  She, definitely, in the years I have been here, have not made a solid case to convince me that vaccines have saved more lives than they have hurt lives.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Just a coincidence, I suppose...
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-m...-idUSKCN1S616K


Those who suggest just taking vitamins instead are also making massive profits. 

https://www.grandviewresearch.com/pr...lements-market




> *Dietary Supplements Market Size Worth $278.02 Billion By 2024
> *
> The global dietary supplements market is expected to reach USD *278.02 billion by 2024*, at a CAGR of 9.6% from 2016 to 2024, according to a report by Grand View Research, Inc. Rising obesity rates in developed economies including the U.S. and Germany as a result of fluctuating dieting patterns along hectic work style among adults is expected to prompt the spending on nutritional supplements.
> 
> Over the past few years, the high adoption rate of fast foods along sedentary lifestyle in emerging economies including China and India has led to the increase in the prevalence of cardiovascular disorders, diabetes, and obesity. As a result, the individuals among high socio-economic and upper-middle-class income groups are expected to perceive the nutraceuticals including dietary supplements as the alternatives to prescribed drugs.





> Tablets are projected to generate a revenue of exceeding USD 100 billion by the end of 2025. Increased prevalence of multivitamin products in the form of tablets on account of comfortable dosage patterns is projected to have a substantial impact over the next eight years.
> 
> Pregnant women segment reported a revenue of USD 12.55 billion in 2015. Rising importance of folic acid based nutraceuticals for fetal development during the initial stage of pregnancy is projected be a key market trend.
> 
> Asia Pacific is expected to foresee the fastest growth at a CAGR of 11.2% from the period of 2016 to 2024. The strong foothold of middle-class income groups in China, India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, and Thailand is expected to force the nutraceuticals manufacturers to invest in the above-mentioned countries.
> 
> Key manufacturers dominating the Dietary Supplement market are* Amway, Archer Daniels Midland Company, Abbott Laboratories, Bayer, Glanbia, Arkopharma Laboratories Pharmaceuticals, Glaxo SmithKline.* Strengthening product length and capital expansion are expected to remain a key critical success factor for the industry for coming years.
> 
> In February 2016, NBTY, Inc., agreed to sell Vitamin World, a U.S retail business to Centre Lane Partners. This agreement is a standalone business with investment and resources tailored to retail business operations. This strategy is expected to benefit the company to position itself in the market with long-term growth and success.

----------


## Zippyjuan

And they are safer, right?  

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...0S82QN20151014




> *'Health' supplements send 23,000 to emergency rooms in U.S each year
> *
> 
> Dietary supplements - those “all natural” products people consume for weight loss, extra energy or to self-treat various conditions - send 23,000 people, many of them children, to the emergency room in the U.S. each year, according to a new estimate.
> 
> Just over 9 percent require hospitalization. Many patients report heart symptoms.
> 
> The supplements include herbal products, amino acids, vitamins, minerals and other “complementary” nutrition products hawked for a wide range of uses,* often with little or no testing to back up claims.*
> 
> ...

----------


## Zippyjuan

> *“Mass sterilization”: Kenyan Doctors Find Anti-fertility Agent in UN Tetanus Vaccine*
> According to LifeSiteNews,  a Catholic publication, the Kenya Catholic Doctors Association is  charging UNICEF and WHO with sterilizing millions of girls and women  under cover of an anti-tetanus vaccination program sponsored by the  Kenyan government.
> 
>  The Kenyan government denies there is anything wrong with the vaccine, and says it is perfectly safe.
> 
> The Kenya Catholic Doctors Association, however, saw evidence to the  contrary, and had six different samples of the tetanus vaccine from  various locations around Kenya sent to an independent laboratory in  South Africa for testing.
> 
> The results confirmed their worst fears: all six samples tested positive for the HCG antigen. The HCG antigen is used in anti-fertility vaccines,  but was found present in tetanus vaccines targeted to young girls and  women of childbearing age. Dr. Ngare, spokesman for the Kenya Catholic  Doctors Association, stated in a bulletin released November 4:
> “This proved right our worst fears; that this WHO  campaign is not about eradicating neonatal tetanus but a  well-coordinated forceful population control mass sterilization exercise  using a proven fertility regulating vaccine. This evidence was  presented to the Ministry of Health before the third round of  immunization but was ignored.” (Source.)
> ...


That was debunked long ago. https://africacheck.org/2016/05/25/a...refuse-to-die/

----------


## DamianTV

So, uh, what happens when the Measles strains are different from the ones that people are supposedly inoculated against?

----------


## donnay

> Those who suggest just taking vitamins instead are also making massive profits. 
> 
> https://www.grandviewresearch.com/pr...lements-market


No one is suggesting to just take vitamins, but good nutrition plays a key factor in keeping healthy.  If you cannot get all the necessary vitamins and minerals through your food intake, good clean supplements with help fill the voids.

----------


## Schifference

> No one is suggesting to just take vitamins, but good nutrition plays a key factor in keeping healthy.  If you cannot get all the necessary vitamins and minerals through your food intake, good clean supplements with help fill the voids.


Good Clean supplements are a multi-billion dollar enterprise.  I believe in most instances they cannot make any claims on the efficacy of their products. Many are scam products with absolutely useless ingredients.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> Good Clean supplements are a multi-billion dollar enterprise.  I believe in most instances they cannot make any claims on the efficacy of their products. Many are scam products with absolutely useless ingredients.


This is true, which is why it's important that you be willing to pay a premium to make sure your NaCl is genuine Himalayan NaCl, for example.

----------


## donnay

> Good Clean supplements are a multi-billion dollar enterprise.  I believe in most instances they cannot make any claims on the efficacy of their products. Many are scam products with absolutely useless ingredients.


Uh huh.  I have no problem with them making money just like any one else.  

This is a company I like to buy my supplements from:  https://www.nutrabio.com/category/vitamin/

There are many other good companies out there, but everyone has to do their own research and also know your body enough to know what you may be deficient in.  One size does not fit all.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Good Clean supplements are a multi-billion dollar enterprise.  I believe in most instances they cannot make any claims on the efficacy of their products. Many are scam products with absolutely useless ingredients.


To be able to make health claims, they have to be able to document those claims- so you won't see any claims.  Nor are their supplements required to contain what they say they do unlike drug makers.  If a person is concerned about untested products....

----------


## Schifference

> To be able to make health claims, they have to be able to document those claims- so you won't see any claims.  Nor are their supplements required to contain what they say they do unlike drug makers.  If a person is concerned about untested products....


I have heard cases of people taking vitamins and becoming autistic.

----------


## donnay

> To be able to make health claims, they have to be able to document those claims- so you won't see any claims.  Nor are their supplements required to contain what they say they do unlike drug makers.  If a person is concerned about untested products....


The company link I posted above is indeed tested.  There are no fillers added to any of their products.  You can even go to their plant and take a tour.  It is very sterile and they have very good products.

Big pHARMa is the reason why supplement companies cannot make claims, but they are allowed to make the claims.  They really hate competition.  However, it is incumbent upon the person to do the research to look at what different deficiencies they may have or go to a holistic / Naturopathic / Chiropractor  practitioner to help you figure it out.  That's what I did.  Allopathic practitioners have very little expertise in nutrition.

----------


## donnay

> I have heard cases of people taking vitamins and becoming autistic.


You have a link to that, or is that just a rumor?

----------


## donnay

Getting back on topic:




> *Bombshell Flashback: Merck FAKED mumps vaccine research, released faulty vaccine that didn’t work, say virologists in False Claims Act filing*
> 
> Wednesday, May 01, 2019 by: Mike Adams	
> 
> With the deceptive “mainstream” media now running measles hysteria 24/7, you might be shocked to learn that the MMR vaccine doesn’t work as claimed. Even Reuters is now reporting that 10% of those infected with the measles were previously vaccinated against the measles.
> 
> This stunning admission is found in an April 29 article from Reuters entitled, “U.S. measles outbreak raises questions about immunity in adults.” The article states:
> 
> Up to 10 percent of the 695 confirmed measles cases in the current outbreak occurred in people who received one or two doses of the vaccine, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
> ...


https://www.naturalnews.com/2019-05-...y-vaccine.html

----------


## Zippyjuan

> The company link I posted above is indeed tested. * There are no fillers added to any of their products.*  You can even go to their plant and take a tour.  It is very sterile and they have very good products.
> 
> Big pHARMa is the reason why supplement companies cannot make claims, but they are allowed to make the claims.  They really hate competition.  However, it is incumbent upon the person to do the research to look at what different deficiencies they may have or go to a holistic / Naturopathic / Chiropractor  practitioner to help you figure it out.  That's what I did.  Allopathic practitioners have very little expertise in nutrition.




Rice flour would classify as a filler.  https://www.nutrabio.com/product/51596/

Who is testing their product?

----------


## donnay

> Rice flour would classify as a filler.  https://www.nutrabio.com/product/51596/
> 
> Who is testing their product?





> NutraBio Labs has a "No Compromise" commitment to producing the purest, cleanest, and most effective supplements on the market. All of our products are manufactured in-house in our FDA-inspected, GMP certified facility in New Jersey. NutraBio only uses the most superior ingredients and all ingredients are tested by us and a third party lab to ensure 99.98% purity or greater. Our products all include fully transparent labels featuring clinical doses of the highest quality ingredients available. To ensure our customers of our commitment to product quality, we launched a new website Checkmysupps.com which allows our consumers access to independent 3rd-party lab test results of all our products.


They also have third party testing.




> Each and every single ingredient that NutraBio puts in their supplements are rigorously tested for quality and purity. NutraBio is now publicly releasing the results of 3rd party lab tests conducted on their products, so that you can see for yourself how your supplements checked out!
> 
> View the date your item was tested, the results of the test, and even the name of the chemist that conducted the test.
> Full transparency!
> 
> You can view a copy of the results by entering the lot number, located on the bottom of each bottle of NutraBio supplements into the form above.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> They also have third party testing.


Thanks for the info.  Some companies own the "third party" testing their products. The FDA only inspects to see if the lab is clean and sanitary- they don't check any product ingredients.

----------


## Schifference

> You have a link to that, or is that just a rumor?


Some preliminary findings presented this week at a meeting of autism researchers may have mothers-to-be fretting about their prenatal vitamins.

The blockbuster statistic that sent tongues wagging was this: *Women who got too much folate and vitamin B12 during pregnancy were 17.6 times more likely to have their children diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder.*

----------


## donnay

> Thanks for the info.  Some companies own the "third party" testing their products. The FDA only inspects to see if the lab is clean and sanitary- they don't check any product ingredients.


Good, I don't want the FDA involved any other way.  It's funny how vigorously you question supplements, but your not too concerned about the safety of the ingredients and efficacy of vaccines.  Hmm.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Good, I don't want the FDA involved any other way.  It's funny how vigorously you question supplements, but your not too concerned about the safety of the ingredients and efficacy of vaccines.  Hmm.


Just trying to apply the same criteria to vitamins you apply to vaccines. Vaccines are tested, vitamins are not. Both are big dollar industries.  And at over 20,000 people a year, supplements send way more people to the hospital.  (and it is usually the vitamin sellers trying to say vaccines are bad and their products are good- that Natural News article had several links to buying their vitamins in it).

----------


## donnay

> Some preliminary findings presented this week at a meeting of autism researchers may have mothers-to-be fretting about their prenatal vitamins.
> 
> The blockbuster statistic that sent tongues wagging was this: *Women who got too much folate and vitamin B12 during pregnancy were 17.6 times more likely to have their children diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder.*


Hmm...and who was the supplement company?  Lot's of prenatal vitamins are made by subsidiaries of Big pHARMa, so I would be interested in seeing some stats on that.

----------


## Schifference

> Hmm...and who was the supplement company?  Lot's of prenatal vitamins are made by subsidiaries of Big pHARMa, so I would be interested in seeing some stats on that.


Almost 60,000 instances of vitamin toxicity are reported annually to US poison control centers. [1, 2] According to National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES) data, in 2003–2006 33% of the United States population aged 1 year and older took a multivitamin supplement in a given month. [3] In a 2009 survey, 56% of US consumers said they take vitamins or supplements, with 44% saying they take them daily. [4] (See Pathophysiology and Etiology.)

Owing to their ability to accumulate in the body, fat-soluble vitamins have a higher potential for toxicity than do water-soluble vitamins. Iron-containing vitamins are the most toxic, especially in pediatric acute ingestions

eMedicine Logo

----------


## donnay

> Just trying to apply the same criteria to vitamins you apply to vaccines. Vaccines are tested, vitamins are not. Both are big dollar industries.  And at over 20,000 people a year, supplements send way more people to the hospital.


Vaccine are not tested and haven't been by independent testing.  There is a huge conflict of interest when the vaccine maker pays for their own studies.  Merck has been caught lying many times and yet they are still in business.

----------


## Schifference

Vitamins are toxic and deadly. Alternative medicine lies about their safety.

----------


## donnay

> Almost 60,000 instances of vitamin toxicity are reported annually to US poison control centers. [1, 2] According to National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES) data, in 2003–2006 33% of the United States population aged 1 year and older took a multivitamin supplement in a given month. [3] In a 2009 survey, 56% of US consumers said they take vitamins or supplements, with 44% saying they take them daily. [4] (See Pathophysiology and Etiology.)
> 
> Owing to their ability to accumulate in the body, fat-soluble vitamins have a higher potential for toxicity than do water-soluble vitamins. Iron-containing vitamins are the most toxic, especially in pediatric acute ingestions
> 
> eMedicine Logo


Yeah, that is one reason I stressed to research clean supplements.  I certainly wouldn't buy my supplements at the Dollar store or Walmart.

Centrum and Centrum Silver is widely taken by people, and that is made by Pfizer.com.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> *Vaccine are not tested* and haven't been by independent testing.  There is a huge conflict of interest when the vaccine maker pays for their own studies.  Merck has been caught lying many times and yet they are still in business.


Internet myth.  Vaccines ARE tested.  

https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-b...proval-process




> *Vaccine Product Approval Process*
> 
> FDA's Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research (CBER) is responsible for regulating vaccines in the United States. Current authority for the regulation of vaccines resides primarily in Section 351 of the Public Health Service Act and specific sections of the Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act.
> 
> Vaccine clinical development follows the same general pathway as for drugs and other biologics. A sponsor who wishes to begin clinical trials with a vaccine must submit an Investigational New Drug application (IND) to FDA. The IND describes the vaccine, its method of manufacture, and quality control tests for release. Also included are information about the vaccine's safety and ability to elicit a protective immune response (immunogenicity) in animal testing, as well as the proposed clinical protocol for studies in humans.
> 
> Pre-marketing (pre-licensure) vaccine clinical trials are typically done in three phases, as is the case for any drug or biologic. Initial human studies, referred to as Phase 1, are safety and immunogenicity studies performed in a small number of closely monitored subjects. Phase 2 studies are dose-ranging studies and may enroll hundreds of subjects. Finally, Phase 3 trials typically enroll thousands of individuals and provide the critical documentation of effectiveness and important additional safety data required for licensing. At any stage of the clinical or animal studies, if data raise significant concerns about either safety or effectiveness, FDA may request additional information or studies, or may halt ongoing clinical studies.
> 
> If successful, the completion of all three phases of clinical development can be followed by the submission of a Biologics License Application (BLA). To be considered, the license application must provide the multidisciplinary FDA reviewer team (medical officers, microbiologists, chemists, biostatisticians, etc.) with the efficacy and safety information necessary to make a risk/benefit assessment and to recommend or oppose the approval of a vaccine. Also during this stage, the proposed manufacturing facility undergoes a pre-approval inspection during which production of the vaccine as it is in progress is examined in detail.
> ...


More at link.

----------


## Schifference

Most multivitamins and supplements are a 'waste of money'

"*Not only are vitamin and mineral supplements a waste of money, they can in some instances actually harm the body*," reports The Guardian.

https://www.nhs.uk/news/medical-prac...e-waste-money/

----------


## devil21

A relevant note for understanding things like the vaccine push comes from understanding that the current economic system constantly requires expansion.  It always requires more reasons to print more money and more reasons for people to spend more money and rack up more credit debt.  With that in mind, a healthy population is bad for the economy.  The cancer industry is a huge driver of money creation, for example.  Therefore, big pharma spends a lot of effort _creating_ problems with their drugs/vaccines to ensure that required expansion of the money/credit/debt system.  This applies to many industries but big pharma, big agri (Monsanto, et al) and others are in the business of poisoning people intentionally.  Keeping people just healthy enough to continue to labor while just ill enough to require more and more health expenditures.  Same applies to the pet industry, also.  The explosion of cancer in pets?  Yep, same thing.  People will put their dog's tumor removal surgery on a credit card and spend almost any amount on their pets.





> Most multivitamins and supplements are a 'waste of money'
> 
> "*Not only are vitamin and mineral supplements a waste of money, they can in some instances actually harm the body*," reports The Guardian.
> 
> https://www.nhs.uk/news/medical-prac...e-waste-money/


We don't hear much about Codex Alimentarius (sp?) anymore, do we?

----------


## Schifference

Herbal medicines can have dangerous side effects, research reveals

They can cause kidney or liver damage, and are sometimes adulterated with steroids, pesticides, antibiotics or harmful metals

Herbal medicines can cause kidney failure and liver damage in some consumers because they contain toxic chemicals or heavy metals, or react harmfully with other drugs, a study has found.

The finding comes from a paper on Monday. Researchers led by the University of Adelaide reviewed the findings from 52 studies of herbal medicines and toxicology.

The lead author of the review, pathology professor Roger Byard, said the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) should require independent testing of herbal medicines before placing them on the market, and that legal action should be considered when products did not comply with regulations. The products should also be closely monitored once on the market, he said.

https://www.theguardian.com/australi...search-reveals

----------


## RonZeplin

> That was debunked long ago. https://africacheck.org/2016/05/25/a...refuse-to-die/


Some illegal alien Kenyan anti-vaxx "immigrants"  will be moving in next door to you soon.  

You asked for it, you got it.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Some illegal alien Kenyan anti-vaxx "immigrants"  will be moving in next door to you soon.  
> 
> You asked for it, you got it.


LOL!

----------


## donnay

> Herbal medicines can have dangerous side effects, research reveals
> 
> They can cause kidney or liver damage, and are sometimes adulterated with steroids, pesticides, antibiotics or harmful metals
> 
> Herbal medicines can cause kidney failure and liver damage in some consumers because they contain toxic chemicals or heavy metals, or react harmfully with other drugs, a study has found.
> 
> The finding comes from a paper on Monday. Researchers led by the University of Adelaide reviewed the findings from 52 studies of herbal medicines and toxicology.
> 
> The lead author of the review, pathology professor Roger Byard, said the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) should require independent testing of herbal medicines before placing them on the market, and that legal action should be considered when products did not comply with regulations. The products should also be closely monitored once on the market, he said.
> ...


Yes!  But I have said over and over it is incumbent upon the people to research for themselves.  It is good to know your body.  It is good to eat nutritiously.  It's good to get a good nights sleep.  It is good to exercise, and most of all, practicing good hygiene.  It is good to drink clean filtered water.    Geez.

----------


## Schifference

> Yes!  But I have said over and over it is incumbent upon the people to research for themselves.  It is good to know your body.  It is good to eat nutritiously.  It's good to get a good nights sleep.  It is good to exercise, and most of all, practicing good hygiene.  It is good to drink clean filtered water.    Geez.


Apply all the aforementioned before taking a vaccine.

----------


## donnay

> Apply all the aforementioned before taking a vaccine.


Yes, I do and I also look at the vaccine inserts and read the ingredients.  Many people did not know they can ask for it.

----------


## Schifference

> Yes, I do and I also look at the vaccine inserts and read the ingredients.  Many people did not know they can ask for it.


You seem healthy enough to take a vaccine. Good luck.

----------


## Working Poor

> Herbal medicines can have dangerous side effects, research reveals


Many pharmaceuticals have deadly side effects too but, big pharma is allowed to produce and sell them. The FDA will admit that their are 18 deaths per 100,000 people due to taking properly prescribed, taken as directed drugs. If you are prescribed a med I hope you will look up the side effects of the drug and, if death or worse disease than the one being treated is one of them that you will seriously consider finding some other treatment.

I am sure there are no where near as many people dying because they took herbs mainly because people who take them are usually much more in touch with what their body does and how it reacts to things put in it.

----------


## Schifference

Medications treat symptoms they do not cure.

In many instances the body responds to medication. In the case of serotonin, the brain recognizes that serotonin is there from the medicine and stops producing it. If you stop taking the medicine you have a breakdown because the brain stopped producing it because it didn't have to. In the case of pain killers the body develops tolerance and then addiction and eventually the medicine has little effect on the chronic pain. Overuse of antibiotics has rendered them less effective and allowed the pathogens to become resistant. With that said, I would have to wonder what happens when you introduce extra supplements. I would hypothesize that the body would react in a similar way as it does to the aforementioned. Give the body too much of anything and it is not good. Provide the body something that it would normally acquire from its own unique method and it no longer acquires it from its own unique method.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Medications treat symptoms they do not cure.
> 
> In many instances the body responds to medication. In the case of serotonin, the brain recognizes that serotonin is there from the medicine and stops producing it. If you stop taking the medicine you have a breakdown because the brain stopped producing it because it didn't have to. In the case of pain killers the body develops tolerance and then addiction and eventually the medicine has little effect on the chronic pain. Overuse of antibiotics has rendered them less effective and allowed the pathogens to become resistant. With that said, I would have to wonder what happens when you introduce extra supplements. I would hypothesize that the body would react in a similar way as it does to the aforementioned. Give the body too much of anything and it is not good. Provide the body something that it would normally acquire from its own unique method and it no longer acquires it from its own unique method.


If the body produces it, it may reduce its own production (like hormones) to regulate its levels.  For water soluble vitamins, you literally piss them out if you have too much- wasting taking extra in.  Fat soluble ones can accumulate and some can be toxic if they accumulate too much.

----------


## Firestarter

Big pharma trolls really stop at nothing do they?
Even claiming that vitamins are very dangerous as some body build idiots, sex maniacs and fools wanting to lose weight fast, wind up in the emergency room of hospitals!





> That was debunked long ago. https://africacheck.org/2016/05/25/a...refuse-to-die/


Sure in Alice in Wonderland everything is debunked...



> The GAVI Alliance was founded in 2000 with the help of the Gates Foundation, other donors include: the Rockefeller foundation, UNICEF, World Health Organization (WHO), and World Bank.
> GAVI has the goal of vaccinating the entire third World.
> Obviously part of the plan is to reduce fertility for depopulation purposes.
> The research by Jurriaan Maessen, is an important source for information on anti-fertility vaccines.
> There are not only vaccines to reduce fertility, but pregnant women are forced to get vaccinated, which has caused abortions in Thailand and the Philippines: http://www.oldthinkernews.com/2010/0...ion-reduction/
> 
> 
> A 2010 study conducted by the Philippine Medical Association (PMA) indicated that Philippine women were “_unwittingly vaccinated against their own children_”.
> By linking hCG with tetanus antigens in a vaccine, researchers fool a woman’s immune system into producing antibodies against hCG, which makes her allergic to her own embryo.
> Once her immune system is sufficiently stimulated against hCG, the pregnant woman will spontaneously abort the embryo: https://www.pop.org/bad-blood-in-the-philippines/


 http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post6468821


And there are also reports that the magical HPV vaccine significantty lowers fertility rates: 


> Adverse effects of the HPV vaccine include menstrual disturbances and mood swings. Shortly after the HPV vaccine was licensed, reports of women experiencing Primary Ovarian Failure (POF) emerged.
> The estimated incidence of POF for females under the age of 40 is 1 in 100, but this could be considerably higher because it’s masked by the birth control pill. Between 10% and 30% of women with POF also have (other) autoimmune disorders.
> 
> Approximately 60% of women who had not been poisoned with the HPV vaccine had been pregnant at least once, compared to only 35% of women who were poisoned with the HPV vaccine. The difference was especially large for women that had been married. Of the married women 75% that didn’t get the vaccine gave birth, while only 50% who were poisoned with the HPV vaccine had been pregnant.
> 61.1% of the women not poisoned with HPV gave birth, compared to only 35.3% of the women poisoned with the HPV vaccine.
> The pregnancy frequency decreased with increasing numbers of HPV vaccine shots.


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post6653290

----------


## donnay

> *E. coli: Latest Shock Ingredient in Childhood Vaccinations (+ Vaccine Ingredient List)*
> 
> By Christina England
> April 29, 2019
> 
> 
> Vaccine manufacturers are continually adding new ingredients to their vaccines in a bid to make them more effective. E coli was recently added to the GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) Meningitis B vaccine, Bexsero. An ingredient that, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), can cause a range of serious illnesses.1
> 
> The CDC stated that:
> ...


https://thetruthaboutcancer.com/e-co...ngredient-list

----------


## devil21

^^^^^^^
That article is interesting.  It's not the first time there's been talk about "genetically engineering humans", at least if you've read early parts of the bible and gone down that particular rabbit hole.  Something about nephilim hybridization....

----------


## donnay

> *MMR Vaccine Licensing Called Into Question Following ICAN's Latest FOIA Exposure of FDA Coverup*
> 
> NEWS PROVIDED BY
> 
> Informed Consent Action Network 
> May 02, 2019, 09:15 ET
> 
> AUSTIN, Texas, May 2, 2019 /PRNewswire/ -- In another significant legal win for vaccine risk awareness non-profit Informed Consent Action Network (ICAN), a new Freedom of Information Act disclosure from the Federal Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has revealed that the MMR vaccine was licensed based on clinical trials which in total had less than 1,000 participants and far more adverse reactions than previously acknowledged.
> 
> ...


https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...300842503.html

----------


## donnay

> *Mainstream Media Now Calling for the Arrest of “Antivaxxers”*
> 
> May 3, 2019 by IWB
> 
> via *thefreethoughtproject*:
> 
> Since the beginning of the year, the Free Thought Project has been reporting on the hysteria associated with the measles outbreak and the subsequent loss of liberties and police state crackdown that’s ensued. We’ve seen children banned from public spaces,mandatory vaccinations, and a pro-vaccine push in the mainstream media like we’ve never seen before. Now, the pro-mandatory vaccine push has reached a new level, as the Washington Post published an article calling for the arrest of those who choose not to vaccinate.
> 
> As TFTP reported at the end of March, in one of the most shocking moves to date over the 2019 measles outbreak, Rockland County officials declared a state of emergency and effectively banned any child under the age of 18, who had not received the MMR vaccine, from all public spaces. Then, last month, officials took it one step further and ordered mandatory vaccinations for multiple New York zip codes. Those who try to resist getting the shots are being fined.
> ...


https://www.investmentwatchblog.com/...f-antivaxxers/

----------


## devil21

Juliette Kayyem's husband is a federal judge^^^

Both Harvard law school mouthpieces which means they are taking their orders from the bankers.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> What’s more, the seizures from the MMR vaccine are far worse, according to the study, and* can cause permanent harm*.
> 
> “For example, 5% of febrile seizures result in epilepsy, a chronic brain disorder that leads to recurring seizures. Annually, about 300 MMR-vaccine seizures (5% of 5,700)* will lead to epilepsy,*” PIC points out.


Febrile seizures can be triggered by any sort of infection in susceptible people- even flu or the measles can cause it.  Being vaccinated can actually reduce your risk of having one by preventing these infections.  They are fairly rare. 

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...s/syc-20372522




> Causes
> 
> Usually,* a higher than normal body temperature causes febrile seizures*. Even a low-grade fever can trigger a febrile seizure.
> 
> Infection
> The fevers that trigger febrile seizures are usually caused by a viral infection, and less commonly by a bacterial infection. Influenza and the virus that causes roseola, which often are accompanied by high fevers, appear to be most frequently associated with febrile seizures.





> Risk factors
> Factors that increase the risk of having a febrile seizure include:
> 
> Young age. Most febrile seizures occur in children between 6 months and 5 years of age, with the greatest risk between 12 and 18 months of age.
> Family history. Some children inherit a family's tendency to have seizures with a fever. Additionally,* researchers have linked several genes to a susceptibility to febrile seizures.
> 
> *Complications
> 
> Most febrile seizures* produce no lasting effects. Simple febrile seizures don't cause brain damage, intellectual disability or learning disabilities, and they don't mean your child has a more serious underlying disorder.*
> ...


With or without vaccines, they occur in about five percent of children. 




> This means for the average pediatrician, who may care for 1000 children younger than 5 including 3 to 500 between 6 and 24 months of age annually, one could expect to see at *most 1 child* who experiences a febrile seizure* every 5 to 10 years* due to administration of these vaccines together in the first 2 years of life.


https://pediatrics.aappublications.o...38/1/e20160976

----------


## donnay



----------


## donnay

> *Controversial vaccination bill abandoned in Colorado Senate*
> 
> DENVER -- Colorado lawmakers will not change the state's immunization laws this session.
> 
> Senate staffers confirm HB-1312 has been laid over until Friday. That does not give it enough time to pass the General Assembly.
> 
> HB-1312 would have required parents who do not vaccinate their child to submit a waiver in person.
> 
> According to statute, in order to pass the General Assembly, bills must be read and debated on separate days.
> ...


https://kdvr.com/2019/05/02/vaccinat...zen.yandex.com

----------


## RonZeplin

*U.S. reports 60 new measles cases in worst outbreak since 1994*

(Reuters) - The most widespread U.S. measles outbreak in a  quarter-century has infected 60 new patients in the last week, raising  the total number of confirmed cases to 764, federal health officials  said on Monday.  

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and  Prevention reported an 8.5 percent increase in the number of measles  cases since April 26, also confirming that the worst outbreak of the  measles in the United States since 1994 has now reached 23 states. 

Pennsylvania is the most recent state to be hit by the outbreak, after the CDC reported cases in 22 states last week. 

Federal  health officials say a vocal fringe of U.S. parents who refuse to  vaccinate their children have propelled the outbreak, which has mostly  affected children who have not received the measles-mumps-rubella  vaccine, which confers immunity to the disease. These parents believe,  contrary to scientific evidence, that ingredients in the vaccine can  cause autism.  

Although  the virus was eliminated from the country in 2000, meaning it was no  longer continually present year round, outbreaks still happen via  travelers coming from countries where measles is still common, the CDC  says. 

This outbreak has escalated since 82 people in 2018 and  more than 40 people in 2019 brought measles to the United States from  other countries, most frequently Ukraine, Israel and the Philippines,  federal officials said.

----------


## donnay

> *Pediatrician Explains Fallacy Of Media-Hyped Hysteria About The Measles*
> 
> By Arjun Walia
> 
> 
> 
> *IN BRIEF*
> 
> *The Facts*r. Bob Sears, a pediatrician, in an interview with Del Bigtree shares some facts about measles as well as the measles vaccine that the mainstream media is completely ignoring.
> ...


https://www.collective-evolution.com...zen.yandex.com

----------


## navy-vet

Glad I don't have to worry much about most of the preventable diseases. I have gotten about every vaccination there is, through the schools, the Navy and my tenure in medicine. At least up to the latest pneumonia one.

----------


## donnay

> *No Enigma: Vaccines and the Food Allergy Epidemic*
> 
> May 8, 2019 
> By Children's Health Defense
> 
> The United States faces an ever-worsening food allergy epidemic. An estimated 1 in 12 children (8%) have food allergies, and prevalence has risen by at least 50% since 1997. Childhood food allergies are the most common cause of anaphylaxis (a “severe allergic reaction that is rapid in onset and may cause death”). A decade-long analysis of billions of health care claims reported a nationwide increase of 377% in claims for anaphylactic food reactions, and a separate analysis of emergency department (ED) visits over roughly the same period documented a 214% increase in visits for food-induced anaphylaxis—observed in children of all ages but with the highest rates in infants and toddlers. Peanut and tree nut allergies—which have tripled since 1997—are the most frequent triggers of ED visits for anaphylaxis, and over a third (35%) of the children who experience peanut-related anaphylaxis do so following their very first exposure.
> 
> … multiple strands of published evidence—including experiments dating back over a hundred years—indicate that injected vaccines are major culprits.
> 
> ...


https://www.collective-evolution.com...zen.yandex.com

----------


## RonZeplin

An IBM computer wants to talk to you about vaccines.  *

Machine Learning Predicts Kids at Risk of Not Getting Vaccinated*

Growing skepticism toward vaccines has sparked a flareup of measles  outbreaks affecting New York City neighborhoods, cruise ships,  international airports and even Googles Mountain View headquarters. To  help family physicians reach out to vaccine-hesitant parents, data  scientists have shown how computer models can predict the likelihood  that an individual childs parents will not get him or her vaccinated.

*............
*The reason why this could be useful is that, while its very hard to  persuade someone once theyve made up their mind, it might be easier if  we know early enough and approach them in a friendly manner explaining  why its important that their children be vaccinated, says Tin Oreskovic, *a data scientist at IBM's Chief Analytics Office*.

    Families who choose to not get the MMR (measles, mumps,  rubella) vaccine may expose their neighbors and communities to the risk  of serious illness and death. In 2017, there were 110,000 measles deaths  worldwide. Most of these fatalities involved children under the age of  five, according to the World Health Organization (WHO). Before  the measles vaccine became available in 1963, measles epidemics  regularly swept the globe, killing approximately 2.6 million people each  year. 

Its important to ensure that at least 95 percent of the population  gets immunity through two vaccine doses (or sometimes prior exposure to  the virus). That 95 percent herd immunity threshold limits the  possible spread of measles outbreaks and helps protect infants who are  too young to be vaccinated as well as people who cannot be immunized  because of other diseases or conditions. But many countries have  seen second-dose vaccination rates fall below the herd immunity  threshold, including 34 out of 53 countries in the WHOs European region in 2017. 

To help boost vaccination rates, Oreskovic initiated and coordinated a University of Chicago Data Science for Social Good project  aimed at predicting the likelihood of Croatian children getting  vaccinated by the end of their first-grade school year. Working with the  Croatian Institute of Public Health, researchers from France, Portugal, and the United States worked  together to train machine learning algorithms on the electronic health  records of 48,000 children who entered the first grade between 2011 and  2018.

    After comparing the results from four machine learning models,  researchers decided upon a LASSO logistic regression model that  identified vaccine-hesitant families with 72-percent precision. The model pruned the large number of possible data features affecting  vaccination rates down to just 25 of the most important  featuressomething that improved the chance of the models predictive  power holding up for other groups of children beyond those in the  training datasets. (Some features that raised child risk scores included  having children who sat, walked, and spoke at a later age than their  peers.)

    Just as importantly, the team chose the LASSO model because  it presented the results for child risk scores in a way that humans  could understand. Interpretability is never a guarantee with many machine learning models, but in this case it allowed both data scientists and health officials to understand and trust the LASSO models reasons for singling out certain families as being at higher risk of hesitating to vaccinate. 

    The project also created an Early Warning and Monitoring  System Web dashboard that presents vaccination rates and child risk  scores to public health officials and physicians at national, county,  and local health clinic levels. The next project being considered  will likely involve a randomized controlled trial to see whether the  child risk scores help officials and physicians to intervene effectively  with vaccine-hesitant families and improve vaccination rates. But that  next step would likely take place no sooner than the 20202021 school  year.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/...ing-vaccinated

----------


## Schifference

If there was a deadly epidemic virus killing millions in the USA and you lived self sufficiently on your own private property, would you allow everyone to come onto your property?

----------


## Swordsmyth

> An IBM computer wants to talk to you about vaccines.  *
> 
> Machine Learning Predicts Kids at Risk of Not Getting Vaccinated*
> 
> Growing skepticism toward vaccines has sparked a flareup of measles  outbreaks affecting New York City neighborhoods, cruise ships,  international airports and even Google’s Mountain View headquarters. To  help family physicians reach out to vaccine-hesitant parents, data  scientists have shown how computer models can predict the likelihood  that an individual child’s parents will not get him or her vaccinated.
> 
> *............
> *“The reason why this could be useful is that, while it’s very hard to  persuade someone once they’ve made up their mind, it might be easier if  we know early enough and approach them in a friendly manner explaining  why it’s important that their children be vaccinated,” says Tin Oreskovic, *a data scientist at IBM's Chief Analytics Office*.
> 
> ...


IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance Between Nazi Germany and America’s Most Powerful Corporation by Edwin Black

----------


## donnay

> *Media admits that 10% of those infected with measles were already vaccinated, and that measles vaccines don’t even work after a few years*
> 
> Friday, May 10, 2019 by: Ethan Huff	
> 
> Though its official failure figure is somewhat questionable, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) is finally admitting, at least, that the MMR vaccine for measles, mumps, and rubella doesn’t always work as claimed – and even when it seems like it does, the vaccine’s effectiveness always wanes over time.
> 
> Rather than confer permanent immunity inside a person’s body like natural measles infection does, the MMR vaccine provides limited protection at best, it’s now being officially revealed. As this pertains to the ongoing, nationwide measles “outbreak,” as it’s being called, up to 10 percent of cases actually involve people who had previously received the MMR vaccine, the CDC says.
> 
> “Adults in the United States who were vaccinated against measles decades ago may need a new dose depending on when they received the shot and their exposure risk, according to public health experts battling the nation’s largest outbreak since the virus was deemed eliminated in 2000,” explains a Reuters report on the situation.
> ...


https://www.naturalnews.com/2019-05-...zen.yandex.com

----------


## donnay

No conflicts of interest here...move along.




> *Former CDC head lands vaccine job at Merck*
> 
> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Dr. Julie Gerberding, former director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, was named president of Merck & Co Incs vaccine division, the company said on Monday.
> 
> Gerberding, who led the CDC from 2002 to 2009, stepped down when President Barack Obama took office.
> 
> She had led the agency from one crisis to another, including the investigation into the anthrax attacks that killed five people in 2001, the H5N1 avian influenza, the global outbreak of severe acute respiratory syndrome, or SARS, and various outbreaks of food poisoning.
> 
> As a preeminent authority in public health, infectious diseases and vaccines, Dr. Gerberding is the ideal choice to lead Mercks engagement with organizations around the world that share our commitment to the use of vaccines to prevent disease and save lives, Merck Chief Executive Officer Richard Clark said in a statement.
> ...


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-m...5BK2K520091221

----------


## RonZeplin

*Vaccine Myth Exposed: Vaccines Did NOT Eradicate Polio!*




One of the first things proponents of vaccination point to in support of  vaccination is the eradication of polio. Even if they agree vaccines  come at a risk, they believe the risk is well worth it because of the  eradication of many infectious diseases, especially polio. But does the  reward really outweigh the risks?

The only way the rewards for  vaccinating could outweigh the risks is if there were actually rewards  to begin with. But that doesnt seem to be the case with polio. Yes,  almost everyone believes that vaccines eradicated polio. But that  doesnt make it true. In fact, just about everyone that Ive talked to  didnt know much about polio before I told them what Im about to tell  you. The only things  that most people know about polio is:

vaccines eradicated poliopolio causes paralysisone of our presidents was paralyzed from polio 
Why are people so limited in their understanding of polio, yet feel so strongly that vaccines are what eradicated polio?

http://theawarenessrevolution.com/polio-vaccine-myth/

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Yes, almost everyone believes that vaccines eradicated polio.


Polio has not been declared eradicated yet. Ron Paul saw friends either be paralyzed or even die from polio.  He called the polio vaccine "a blessing".

----------


## Firestarter

> *Vaccine Myth Exposed: Vaccines Did NOT Eradicate Polio!*


There isn’t even evidence that polio actually causes paralysis: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post6538870

There is however evidence that shows that the current rising paralysis rates are associated with lower polio rates, while polio vaccination rates are increasing!!!

----------


## donnay

> Vaccination helped to stop many awful diseases, and it was a big thing in medicine that has saved many lives. If you are afraid, just address a doctor and have your clinical blood analysis taken. Also it is important to pay attention to the individual issues like congenital disorders, etc.


Have you checked out the ingredients in many of the vaccines?  Have you asked your doctor for the vaccine insert to read before getting a shot?

Would you agree with regards to secret government experiments done to the Tuskegee Airmen?  No one should be a guinea pig.  There is a eugenics program out there, if you don't know about it then you don't understand the concerns people have about vaccine safety.

Since 1986 there has not been an independent safety study on vaccines.

References:  
https://www.learntherisk.org
https://www.learntherisk.org/ingredients/
https://www.dailytarheel.com/article...olina-eugenics
https://icandecide.org/wp-content/up...%2C%202018.pdf

----------


## Firestarter

> If you are afraid, just address a doctor and have your clinical blood analysis taken. Also it is important to pay attention to the individual issues like congenital disorders, etc.


I'm terrified of a big pharma, whose main concerns are making money, population control and overpopulation!





> Vaccination helped to stop many awful diseases, and it was a big thing in medicine that has saved many lives.


Vaccine propaganda is filled with "awful" pseudoscience. Please show us "scientific" reports on proper placebo controlled trials on vaccines.

The following picture shows that the decline in death rate had nothing to do with vaccines, including: Measles (vaccine introduced in 1963); Whooping cough, Pertussis (vaccine 1949); and Diphtheria (vaccine 1920).

----------


## Swordsmyth

Merck’s former LEAD Supervisor for Vaccine Safety never vaccinates his own children due to sterility concerns

----------


## Swordsmyth

*Genetic  Sequencing of Common Vaccine Finds Entire Male Human Genome from  Aborted Human Baby with Abnormal, Modified Genes, 560 Genes Linked to  Cancer*

----------


## Swordsmyth

*WHO admits polio outbreak in the Philippines caused by polio vaccines… outbreak “caused by vaccine-derived poliovirus type 2”*

----------


## Zippyjuan

> *WHO admits polio outbreak in the Philippines caused by polio vaccines… outbreak “caused by vaccine-derived poliovirus type 2”*


From the article:




> * In rare instances*, they said, the weakened virus can strengthen in areas with poor sanitation and hygiene. Children who have *not been properly immunized* can be susceptible.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> From the article:


If you think they are going to tell the whole truth even when caught I don't know what to say other than "you can't fix stupid".

From the article:

WHO and UNICEF said in a joint statement the polio outbreak in the  Philippines is concerning because it is caused by vaccine-derived  poliovirus type 2,” writes the Associated Press. “The weakened virus used in vaccines replicates for a short time in children’s intestines and is excreted in their feces.” Polio vaccines are often cited as a success story proving that vaccines work to eliminate infectious disease. In truth, *nearly all the cases of polio in the modern world are caused by polio vaccines* themselves.
 Stated plainly, more cases of polio are caused by polio vaccines than from wild polio.



Oral polio vaccines are actually “spawning virulent strains” of polioviruses, reports Children’s Health Defense:
_The alarming surge in vaccine-derived polio cases presents  vaccine planners with a “quandary” or “conundrum”—because “The very tool  you are using for [polio] eradication is causing the problem.” …Vaccine  researchers have long known that these OPV-derived viruses can  themselves cause polio, particularly when they get “loose in the  environment.”
_
 The Associated Press story admits that it has been over 25 years  since polio in the Philippines was contracted from a “wild strain.”  Since 1993, *all the cases of polio in the Philippines have been caused by polio vaccines*. 




The AP also admits that vaccines kill children:
_The government’s immunization programs were marred in 2017 by a  dengue fever vaccine made by French drugmaker Sanofi Pasteur which some  Philippine officials linked to the deaths of at least three children.  Duque and other Philippine health officials say they have worked to  restore public trust in vaccines since then._
 Even worse, as the AP admits, vaccines for dengue fever were actually found to *increase the risk of severe dengue infections*:
_The government halted the dengue immunization drive after Sanofi  said a study showed the vaccine may increase the risk of severe dengue  infections. More than 830,000 children received the Dengvaxia vaccine  under the campaign, which was launched in 2016 and halted in 2017.  Sanofi officials said the Dengvaxia vaccine was safe and would reduce  dengue infections if the vaccination drive continued._

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## Zippyjuan

> Since 1993, *all the cases of polio in the Philippines have been caused by polio vaccines*.


 How many cases since 1993 in the Philippines?  There are now two!  (they were not vaccinated)

From your article:




> Health Secretary Francisco Duque III said at a news conference that authorities have confirmed at least* one case of polio* in a 3-year-old girl in southern Lanao del Sur province and detected the polio virus in sewage in Manila and in waterways in the southern Davao region. Those findings are enough to declare an outbreak of the crippling disease in a previously polio-free country like the Philippines, he said.


The number of cases has since doubled!  Panic!

https://time.com/5682228/philippines-polio-outbreak/




> Philippine health officials on Friday *confirmed a second case* of polio in a 5-year-old child a day after declaring the country’s first outbreak in nearly two decades, and announced plans for a massive immunization program.
> 
> Health Secretary Francisco Duque III said authorities confirmed the new case in a boy from Laguna province south of Manila after samples were found positive for the polio virus.

----------


## donnay

> *The WHO and UNICEF just admitted Natural News was right all along: Polio outbreaks really are caused by polio vaccines*
> 
> by: Ethan Huff	
> 
> After nearly two decades of having been declared “polio free” by the World Health Organization (WHO), the Philippines is now experiencing its first polio outbreak in 19 years – and authorities are actually admitting that the cause was the polio vaccine itself!
> 
> Health Secretary Francisco Duque III announced at a recent press conference that at least one person, a three-year-old girl in the southern Lanao del Sur province, has contracted the virus, which has also been detected in waterways throughout the southern Davao region, as well as in sewage in Manila.
> 
> These three vector points are enough to declare an official polio outbreak, officials say, which is creating something of a panic as polio was previously thought to have been completely eradicated.
> ...


https://www.naturalnews.com/2019-10-...-vaccines.html

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## Firestarter

> https://www.naturalnews.com/2019-10-...-vaccines.html


Isn´t Mike Adams a little late to announce this "news"?!?



> Researchers have found that an OPV virus “_can very rapidly regain its strength if it starts spreading on its own_”, acquiring “_mutations that make it basically indistinguishable from the wild-type virus_”. In other words, there is no real difference between a “wild” and “OPV-derived” poliovirus, and the OPV-virus causes polio...
> 
> The OPV vaccine used to be trivalent, containing 3 vaccine serotypes corresponding to the 3 wild polioviruses (types 1, 2 and 3). In 2015, after global public health agencies declared _wild_ poliovirus type 2 eradicated; in 2016 they decided to oversee a 155-country “switch” to a bivalent oral vaccine (without type 2).
> After this “switch”, vaccine-derived polio outbreaks have emerged in numerous countries.
> 
> You´ll never guess what solution they proposed for these polio outbreaks caused by vaccines – more vaccines!
> They specifically had the third world population poisoned with a “_judicious use of a new live vaccine… effective against only type 2_”.
> In a strange twist, this has caused even MORE type 2 vaccine-derived outbreaks that far exceeded “projections” since mid-2017.


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post6866472

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## donnay

> Isn´t Mike Adams a little late to announce this "news"?!?
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post6866472


No not late to the game, just vindicated as he has been warning about this for years.

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## Swordsmyth

This  article makes the case that even in regions where HPV vaccination has  reduced HPV lesions, rates of cervical cancer continue to increase

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## Schifference

When my daughter was younger we decided to wait and have her decide wether or not to get the HPV vaccination. She will be 21 soon. I have no idea if she has had it or not. The thought that crossed my mind was, how would a parent feel if they didn't vaccinate their child and then they acquired a preventable illness?

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## Stratovarious

> Isn´t Mike Adams a little late to announce this "news"?!?
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post6866472


I used to love everything Mike produced, now I consider him filthy vermin, this is a guy that 
preached free speech for the 15 or so years I followed him, then he launched a youtube type
platform, I joined only to discover that he had posts reviewed b4 publishing and censorship 
of thoughts and ideas that might have been unflattering and true were the norm. 
What a pos.

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## RonZeplin

Received this email from usmint.gov.....
 No thanks, don't want the coin nor the vaccines and will not "share with the kids"!.  




> https://catalog.usmint.gov/american-...&cm_mmca3=19GF
> 
> 
> 
> SAN FRANCISCO (S)     
>     Item Number: 19GF     
>     Household Order Limit: 5*
> 
>  Honor one of our Nations most important achievements in the medical field. The *American Innovation Pennsylvania $1 Reverse Proof Coin* recognizes Dr. Jonas Salk and his development of the polio vaccine at the University of Pittsburgh. The coins design features a microscope and an artists rendition of the poliovirus in three different levels of magnification against a frosted background, both polished to a mirror-like shine. 
> ...

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## euphemia

Don’t let the handsome man distract you from two points on which the debate rests.  Link

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## Swordsmyth

*Vaccine FAIL: “Whooping Cough Outbreak Closes Texas School Despite 100-Percent Vaccination Rate: Officials”*

----------


## Swordsmyth

*Bombshell Study Calls Out HPV Vaccine* *Cervical cancer rates surge in UK as experts debate vaccine's effectiveness*

----------


## Danke

> *Bombshell Study Calls Out HPV Vaccine*
> 
> *Cervical cancer rates surge in UK as experts debate vaccine's effectiveness*



Filling in.

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## Champ

Funny part about the topic is that there is virtually no debate, although there are some (many?) that absolutely want to be bringing attention to this.  People that are supportive of vaccines shame and ridicule anyone for asking questions leaving no room for discussion.  They shame those that are pro-vaccine, yet are curious what is being injected in their child before the procedure is done.

Even when there is the possibility that some vaccines work, like the polio and small pox vaccines, and others do not (MMR, HPV), and there is plenty room for grey area and further analysis, debate on this topic is swiftly shut down by people who point to agencies like the CDC as the be all, end all, authority on the matter.

----------


## Firestarter

> Funny part about the topic is that there is virtually no debate, although there are some (many?) that absolutely want to be bringing attention to this.  People that are supportive of vaccines shame and ridicule anyone for asking questions leaving no room for discussion.  They shame those that are pro-vaccine, yet are curious what is being injected in their child before the procedure is done.


I didn't even know until recently that big pharma supporter @Zippyjuan was banned...

I don't think that there are many, who will think that this is a great loss for the "debates" on Ronpaulforum.com.

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## devil21

> I didn't even know until recently that big pharma supporter @Zippyjuan was banned...
> 
> I don't think that there are many, who will think that this is a great loss for the "debates" on Ronpaulforum.com.


Zippy had his place.  Sort of miss "him" a lil since I've seen a lot of handles come and go over the nearly 12 years I've been on RPF but that was one of the few that was a constant, even if annoying sometimes.  "He" was sometimes good for rhetorical sharpening and even was right and instructive on some things, usually economic, occasionally.  I do think it's odd that he's been banned now when things seem to be becoming very interesting overall.

----------


## Ender

> Zippy had his place.  Sort of miss "him" a lil since I've seen a lot of handles come and go over the nearly 12 years I've been on RPF but that was one of the few that was a constant, even if annoying sometimes.  "He" was sometimes good for rhetorical sharpening and even was right and instructive on some things, usually economic, occasionally.  I do think it's odd that he's been banned now when things seem to be becoming very interesting overall.


Pretty much agree.

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## Firestarter

> Zippy had his place. Sort of miss "him" a lil since I've seen a lot of handles come and go over the nearly 12 years I've been on RPF but that was one of the few that was a constant, even if annoying sometimes.


I don't know how he got so this despised as I haven't been here long enough. Whenever Zippy started a thread this was sort of like an invitation for everybody to disagree...

I certainly won't miss Zippy's posts on health care, but on politics and economics he has posted some good information (in my opinion).
One good thing about Zippy is that his posts were low on insults (unless the member discussed is @Swordsmyth).





> "He" was sometimes good for rhetorical sharpening and even was right and instructive on some things, usually economic, occasionally. I do think it's odd that he's been banned now when things seem to be becoming very interesting overall.


I think that @JoshLowry takes his ideas on alternative health care very seriously. And so do I, but I don't always agree with him, as some of it looks more like religion than science to me...

I don't know if he was behind banning @Zippyjuan, but I certainly can't call it a bad decision as Zippy was despised by so many members...

----------


## JoshLowry

> as some of it looks more like religion than science to me...


Ok.  What have I posted that isn't factually backed by a study or actual scientist?

----------


## Influenza

> Ok.  What have I posted that isn't factually backed by a study or actual scientist?


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...-sickness-quot

didn't take long to find. That's some dannno level conspiracy BS LOL. The fact you found that even worth sharing is pretty telling.

----------


## JoshLowry

> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...-sickness-quot
> 
> didn't take long to find. That's some dannno level conspiracy BS LOL. The fact you found that even worth sharing is pretty telling.


It was worth sharing.  No one had any idea what was going on inside China.  

Did you even read the words I wrote below the video?  Context much?   


> He's "ex-cia" so take with grain of salt.  
> 
> Different perspectives are appreciated in this vacuum tho.


Intelligent people have open minds and look at a multitude of sources.

Are there no hidden agendas in the world now?  Should we all stop formulating thoughts outside an official narrative?

Try again. Dont miss twice.

----------


## Influenza

> It was worth sharing.  No one had any idea what was going on inside China.  
> 
> Did you even read the words I wrote below the video?  Context much?   
> 
> Intelligent people have open minds and look at a multitude of sources.
> 
> Are there no hidden agendas in the world now?  Should we all stop formulating thoughts outside an official narrative?
> 
> Try again. Dont miss twice.


Intelligent people know when others are spouting absolute BS and don't pay any attention to it. I have 5G in my house, can't wait til i get corona from it!!!! You said for people to take it with a grain of salt _because he's ex-cia,_ not because he's spreading information devoid of any evidentiary consideration. Seems like you are part of the most common religion on RPF, aka distrust in the official narratives 100% of the time, regardless of what the actual facts and evidence say about it. That's why climate change denial, anti vaccine propaganda, obama's gonna steal ur GURNS, crisis actor BS is constantly spouted here

----------


## Champ

> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...-sickness-quot
> 
> didn't take long to find. That's some dannno level conspiracy BS LOL. The fact you found that even worth sharing is pretty telling.


I guess I am too late in this response, but it's not bs that 5g is potentially hazardous to our health.  People were already concerned and have been blaming 4G for health issues for a while, so it's not a surprise at all that 5G has many worried.  There are already a number of cities that have banned the technology and it continues to grow.  https://smombiegate.org/list-of-citi...ave-banned-5g/ 

Whether this has anything to do with the coronavirus is beyond me, if that video in the thread is what you were responding to.

----------


## Firestarter

> Ok.  What have I posted that isn't factually backed by a study or actual scientist?


I have earlier posted in your thread on earthing/grounding (maybe you remember my last post in that thread): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...-aka-Grounding

This looks more like religion than science to me.
I have read the "scientific" looking report(s) that you posted in that thread, but this fails because anybody that knows about grounding can easily find out if they have "placebo" earthing or the "real thing"...

If you feel good about this, by all means continue, but be careful with what you advise to others!

----------


## JoshLowry

http://www.groundology.co.uk/scientific-research

You are flat out wrong.  It's not a religion or a placebo. 

 Be careful attacking others character!




> I have read the "scientific" looking report(s) that you posted in that thread, but this fails because anybody that knows about grounding can easily find out if they have "placebo" earthing or the "real thing"...


This sentence doesn't even make have any logic or debunking in it.  Make a valid point!

----------


## Firestarter

> This sentence doesn't even make have any logic or debunking in it.  Make a valid point!


Are you just wasting my time?
I have at least 3 court cases going for which I need to take action...

Maybe you're forgetting that you've deleted my post in your thread on earthing/grounding.
What's the use of "debating" with a moderator that simply deletes posts with "valid points" if he doesn't agree?!?

----------


## JoshLowry

> Are you just wasting my time?
> I have at least 3 court cases going for which I need to take action...
> 
> Maybe you're forgetting that you've deleted my post in your thread on earthing/grounding.
> What's the use of "debating" with a moderator that simply deletes posts with "valid points" if he doesn't agree?!?


Ambiguous bull$#@!.

Your posts are half nonsense and half truths. I don't like wasting my time refuting half truths.  This is why I deleted it.  How many of your posts have been deleted here?  You have had free reign to post for many years.  If I delete a particular post of yours for a particular reason, there is a good reason for it.

Your deleted post snip - my responses in red.




> It´s actually difficult to insulate your bed so it’s not “grounded” anymore. *Basically if your bed is touching the ground or a wall (that is directly or indirectly in contact with earth) it is already “earthed”. All the more so because mattresses and bed sheets aren’t perfect insulators. * *-Your mattress and walls are not conductive.*
> Shoes are not very good insulators either.
> 
> Even if you would be “insulated” the amount of “voltage” that you could build up in your body would be only small.
> *Just touching something that is connected to the earth or washing hands would be enough to get rid of this excess “voltage”. -It's not about voltage.  It's about receiving free mobile electrons from the surface of the earth.  They cancel out the free radicals created by white bloods cells.  They release an oxygen species to rip apart foreign particles and damaged cells in your body.* 
> As for the “scientific” looking studies that have been made up by “earthing” advocates (some having financial interests).
> It´s easy to manipulate studies, even without inventing numbers out of thin air. Especially for Open access journals that basically publish anything for a fee.
> 
> It´s possible to evaluate 20 aspects and then only report on the 3 ones that support the product to be marketted.
> ...


Let's get to the bottom of this.  Debate away.  Respond to all in red.

----------


## devil21

Hey Josh, I love ya bro but try not to get too banhammery on long time members just because they disagree with you on health topics.  I know you have some "irons in the fire", so to speak, but please try not to let that affect your decisions here.  There's already too many non-genuine posters on RPF to ban some of the remaining genuine ones.  Just my .02.

----------


## JoshLowry

> Hey Josh, I love ya bro but try not to get too banhammery on long time members just because they disagree with you on health topics.  I know you have some "irons in the fire", so to speak, but please try not to let that affect your decisions here.  There's already too many non-genuine posters on RPF to ban some of the remaining genuine ones.  Just my .02.


I'm not going to have anyone drag my name through the mud on the net without retorting - especially on this site.   I have never intentionally steered anyone wrong.

If I pull weeds out of a garden, something will grow in it's place.  Thanks for the advice.

----------


## Firestarter

So you want me to "debate" in a thread on vaccines about your religious believes in earthing/grounding...
After you had deleted it from "your" thread?!?

Thanks by the way for reposting it here.
Do you care to explain why you deleted it?!?

Posting health advise without scientific evidence to back it up, is the kind of disinformation that makes the internet look like a weed-invested garbage dump.





> Originally Posted by Firestarter
> 
> I have read the "scientific" looking report(s) that you posted in that thread, but this fails because anybody that knows about grounding can easily find out if they have "placebo" earthing or the "real thing"...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This sentence doesn't even make have any logic or debunking in it.  Make a valid point!


If you do not know what a proper placebo controlled trial means - randomised, double blind - how can you claim to post "science"?!?
If a trial particpant can easily find out whether he has the "sham" earthing or "real" earthing, which you explain in your earthing/grounding thread (!), we're not talking about science, but about a "sham"  pseudoscientific trial.

----------


## JoshLowry

> So you want me to "debate" in a thread on vaccines about your religious believes in earthing/grounding...
> After you had deleted it from "your" thread?!?
> 
> Thanks by the way for reposting it here.
> Do you care to explain why you deleted it?!?
> 
> Posting health advise without scientific evidence to back it up, is the kind of disinformation that makes the internet look like a weed-invested garbage dump.
> 
> 
> ...


You glossed over every response I took the time to make.

2 weeks.  Read what I wrote and formulate a response without insults if you want to post here in the future.

I succinctly explained why I deleted it.

There are double blind studies in the content I linked you to.

----------


## Swordsmyth

CDC Admits in Federal Court It Does Not Have Studies to Support Claim ‘Vaccines Do Not Cause Autism’
https://www.infowars.com/cdc-admits-...-cause-autism/

----------


## Ender

> So you want me to "debate" in a thread on vaccines about your religious believes in earthing/grounding...
> After you had deleted it from "your" thread?!?
> 
> Thanks by the way for reposting it here.
> Do you care to explain why you deleted it?!?
> 
> Posting health advise without scientific evidence to back it up, is the kind of disinformation that makes the internet look like a weed-invested garbage dump.
> 
> 
> ...


Dude- most "scientific evidence" is BS. Plus science changes all the time.

_Pluto's a planet....no it's not....yes, it is.....

The brontosaurus is everyone's favorite dinosaur.....there were no brontosauruses......oops, yes there were......._

I am totally into natural health- grounding is real & it's NOT a religion.

----------


## Stratovarious

Firestarter bant, omg what was his horrible crime, is he going to prison, too, (for whatever heinous 
thing or things he must have done)?

----------


## JoshLowry

> Firestarter bant, omg what was his horrible crime, is he going to prison, too, (for whatever heinous 
> thing or things he must have done)?


The posts were right in front of you.   You could have pieced it together.  It was crystal clear.

I'm not wasting my time on you people anymore.  Good bye.

----------

