# Liberty Movement > Defenders of Liberty > Justin Amash Forum >  [Video] Justin Amash town hall 5/28/19

## jct74

https://www.facebook.com/fox17online...8780868617444/


edit: here's another version that doesn't have the first minute cut out, probably is better

https://www.facebook.com/woodtv/videos/691087261321615

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## jct74

//

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## enhanced_deficit

Amash is getting noticed and getting top headlines   in media (even if his popularity among GOP-neocon wing might not be rising),  this is positive for Libertarian movement in general.

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## Swordsmyth

> Amash is getting noticed and getting top headlines   in media (even if his popularity among GOP-neocon wing might not be rising),  this is positive for Libertarian movement in general.


No it isn't, the left that is applauding him today will reject him as soon as he is no longer useful to them and he is making conservatives who might have listened to our message in the long run hate and suspect libertarians.

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## axiomata

drudge headline:


Republican gets standing ovation at first town hall after calling for Trump impeachment...

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## Danke

So what exactly did Trump do?

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## Danke

Wow, just heard his position on not allowing unvaccinated children from attending school, what a whack job.

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## dannno

The more I watch his town halls the more I realize I think that he knows what he is doing. Thomas Massie and Rand Paul are perfect for Kentucky. Amash is great for Michigan. The reverse probably wouldn't hold. 

If he holds his seat, or gets a Senate seat that would be awesome. I don't think now is the time for a Presidential run, though.

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## Swordsmyth

> The more I watch his town halls the more I realize I think that he knows what he is doing. Thomas Massie and Rand Paul are perfect for Kentucky. Amash is great for Michigan. The reverse probably wouldn't hold. 
> 
> If he holds his seat, or gets a Senate seat that would be awesome. I don't think now is the time for a Presidential run, though.


It doesn't justify his dishonorable behavior.

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## Danke

Around the 38 minutes mark, he is really confused.

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## Swordsmyth

> Around the 38 minutes mark, he is really confused.


That's charitable.

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## Danke

There is no underlining crime committed...but he is guilty of obstructing justice?!?!?!

Amash is a joke.

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## Danke



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## Swordsmyth

> There is no underlining crime committed...but he is guilty of obstructing justice?!?!?!
> 
> Amash is a joke.


He also denies that the whole investigation was based on lies etc. and tries to imply that there were underlying crimes and that Trump successfully obstructed justice.

He is all in on the treasonous coup.

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## Swordsmyth

Near the end he tries to blame Trump for dividing the country.

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## Swordsmyth

> Wow, just heard his position on not allowing unvaccinated children from attending school, what a whack job.


It sounds like he doesn't care what rights are violated as long as it is done at a local level.

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## Swordsmyth

He also defends letting non-citizens vote at the local level.

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## Swordsmyth

I wish someone had asked why he never called for O'Bummer's impeachment.

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## Swordsmyth

His priority on immigration is to process the invaders into the welfare state faster.

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## Danke

> He also defends letting non-citizens vote at the local level.



Hadn't Gotten that far before I turn that $#@! off.

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## Danke

OK, I continued.  He believes Russians were involved in our elections...

So what?  We can't think and vote independently?  No mention of Israeli involvement in our elections...

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## Danke

1:21. she owns him.

Then he taps dances...

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## Danke

1:35!

He believes in Global Warming climate change.  lol

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## amartin315

I like what Amash is doing and I'm glad Massie and Rand are staying toward the right.  I think testing a left-appealing libertarian position is a good strategy, and Amash is definitely grabbing media attention which is good.  If he runs for president, I want him to run in the republican primary, not go libertarian party.

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## PAF

> No it isn't, the left that is applauding him today will reject him as soon as he is no longer useful to them and he is making conservatives who might have listened to our message in the long run hate and suspect libertarians.


Justin is *"Changing the Tone"*, contrary to the duopoly in power, and critical to this movement. He is young, in touch, and reaching the young generation. I applaud Justin and fully support him.

Rand can do his thing in the senate. I remember when Rand was heavily railed on this forum, he seemed to have overcome his detractors.

Justin has a 94% Freedom Index, among the highest in the Congress and on both sides of the isle. Instead of slitting his throat in every post that you make, he needs more of us to get behind him.

But you are a STATIST NEOCON SHILL so that goes over your head. I do, however, appreciate many of the threads that you start.

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## Todd

> No it isn't, the left that is applauding him today will reject him as soon as he is no longer useful to them and he is making conservatives who might have listened to our message in the long run hate and suspect libertarians.


Wow.  Welcome to 2008.  I remember Conservatives in a complete meltdown when Ron Paul suggested we "invited 9/11 attacks".

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## PAF

> He also defends letting non-citizens vote at the local level.





> Hadn't Gotten that far before I turn that $#@! off.



That is the FULL-BLOWN STATIST position.

I support all people voting at the local level if that is what they wish to do. If you choose to homestead an open area, or open a business, and others in your locale also, it is up to that close-knit community to make decisions amongst themselves without state or federal interference.

Voting at the local level does not require registering with or funding "The Fed". It brings it back to the local level where it should be, and according to the 10th Amendment.

I understand why the Bill of Rights is being shredded though... it is not "invaders"... it is people like you who believe and support Restrictionism, Constitution Free Zones and government Eminent Domain - which are all communist/globalist agendas.

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## Todd

> OK, I continued.  He believes Russians were involved in our elections...
> 
> So what?  We can't think and vote independently?  No mention of Israeli involvement in our elections...


Those are very good points.

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## Todd

The problem I have with Amash's position is that EVERY President has been as guilty and more so of high crimes and misdemeanors and most often War Crimes.  Why die on this hill when the Russia Gate hoax was clearly a charade to get Trump to make a slip up.

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## PAF

Justin: "Under the current administration spending is sky-rocketing."

The lady around the :37 minute mark who can "think for herself"... understands NOTHING about obstruction.

She said: "trump is all for limited government."

Justin said: "President trump is not at all for limited government. That's just not true at all."

The lady said: "I can't debate you on that because I haven't researched that. However he wants to get rid of the Department of Education."

Justin said: "He's free to do so. He's the president. He's the president, he could make a move to do so."

The lady said: "Ok, we'll just move on, this isn't going anywhere."

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## Superfluous Man

> It sounds like he doesn't care what rights are violated as long as it is done at a local level.


Attending public school is not a right.

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## Superfluous Man

> I like what Amash is doing and I'm glad Massie and Rand are staying toward the right.  I think testing a left-appealing libertarian position is a good strategy, and Amash is definitely grabbing media attention which is good.  If he runs for president, I want him to run in the republican primary, not go libertarian party.


Where is Amash doing anything leftist? I don't see it.

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## Superfluous Man

> There is no underlining crime committed...but he is guilty of obstructing justice?!?!?!
> 
> Amash is a joke.


Have you read the Mueller report?

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## EBounding

This townhall was a grand slam for Amash. The "#Resistance" characters in the audience didn't even realize what they were hearing.  Amash's primary challenger was there too but didn't want to ask him a question.  Justin is not going to need the DeVos money.

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## Superfluous Man

> This townhall was a grand slam for Amash. The "#Resistance" characters in the audience didn't even realize what they were hearing.  Amash's primary challenger was there too but didn't want to ask him a question.  Justin is not going to need the DeVos money.


Imagine a debate between Amash and that yahoo.

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## dannno

> Justin: "Under the current administration spending is sky-rocketing."
> 
> The lady around the :37 minute mark who can "think for herself"... understands NOTHING about obstruction.
> 
> She said: "trump is all for limited government."
> 
> Justin said: "President trump is not at all for limited government. That's just not true at all."
> 
> The lady said: "I can't debate you on that because I haven't researched that. However he wants to get rid of the Department of Education."
> ...


The first MAGA lady didn't do too well, the next two asked some valid questions and he gave total crap answers. 

Amash said Barr got a letter from Mueller that Barr had misled the American public. In fact, Barr called Mueller the night he got the letter, and in front of a bunch of people Mueller specifically said that it wasn't Barr misleading the American people, it was the MEDIA that was misleading people about what Barr had released and so he wanted Barr to release more sooner. Barr complied and eventually released everything he could. 

That was a really partisan, dishonest answer and it is just wrong. But maybe that is the best answer to give his district. It's a really good thing the rest of the country isn't like his district, though, I have to say. We would be a far less libertarian country, we are lucky to have Amash serving in that leftist district instead of somebody much much worse.

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## EBounding

> Imagine a debate between Amash and that yahoo.


It’s been awhile since I listened to one of his town halls but he seemed much sharper and able to field every single question.

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## angelatc

> No it isn't, the left that is applauding him today will reject him as soon as he is no longer useful to them and he is making conservatives who might have listened to our message in the long run hate and suspect libertarians.


The conservatives who will not listen to his message just proves they're no more better than  the left when it comes to their idolatry.

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## angelatc

> Where is Amash doing anything leftist? I don't see it.


Seems like he's to the right of the GOP

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## TheTexan

> The more I watch his town halls the more I realize I think that he knows what he is doing. Thomas Massie and Rand Paul are perfect for Kentucky. Amash is great for Michigan. The reverse probably wouldn't hold. 
> 
> If he holds his seat, or gets a Senate seat that would be awesome. I don't think now is the time for a Presidential run, though.


Do you think maybe Amash is Q???  It would explain a lot.

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## James Otis, Jr.

I like Rep. Amash and consider him one of only three true representatives in the U.S. Congress: Sen. Paul, Rep. Massie, and Rep. Amash.  But, honestly compels me to report I believe he has fallen victim to TDS on this one. 

The real issue at hand is the 4th Amendment rights of U.S. citizens being violated on the grounds of opposition research being accepted as evidence to secure a FISA warrant.  I'm not sure where Massie is on all this, but I know my (and all of our) 4th Amendment rights are being protected by one person in the U.S. Congress and that is Sen. Rand Paul.

Btw, I still consider myself a supporter of Justin Amash.  But, I'm very anxious for him to move off of this and stop being so useful to the worst among us.

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## EBounding

> The real issue at hand is the 4th Amendment rights of U.S. citizens being violated on the grounds of opposition research being accepted as evidence to secure a FISA warrant.  I'm not sure where Massie is on all this, but I know my (and all of our) 4th Amendment rights are being protected by one person in the U.S. Congress and that is Sen. Rand Paul.


He talks about this near the end of the townhall when a Trump supporter asked a similar question.  Basically his answer is that Trump is just using that as an excuse since he doesn't actually want to reform FISA;  Trump threatened to veto Amash's amendment.   

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.cf03c3e6c70d

The townhall is really worth the time to listen.

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## Superfluous Man

> The real issue at hand is the 4th Amendment rights of U.S. citizens being violated on the grounds of opposition research being accepted as evidence to secure a FISA warrant.


That is a real issue. But it's not the only issue. And one can oppose that and also oppose abuses of power on the part of the president at the same time. Despite all the complaints I've seen here from people saying that Amash has said things supportive of the deep state or violations of the 4th Amendment or other such things, so far I've seen no evidence of Amash doing that, and when I've asked the complainers to point to any, none have been able to.

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## James Otis, Jr.

> That is a real issue. But it's not the only issue. And one can oppose that and also oppose abuses of power on the part of the president at the same time. Despite all the complaints I've seen here from people saying that Amash has said things supportive of the deep state or violations of the 4th Amendment or other such things, so far I've seen no evidence of Amash doing that, and when I've asked the complainers to point to any, none have been able to.


This is a reasonable reply.  That said, my overarching point is that, practically, Justin Amash is playing into the hands of the Left and even worse actors. I strongly disagree with Amash's approach and strongly agree with Paul's approach. I would also say the time and effort taken to take out Trump is pretty notable in its lack of  evidence against him. I suspect similarly motivated and resourced investigations of preceding presidencies, by and large, would've produced equal or worse evidence. I think impeaching President Trump, under the backdrop of the current evidence at hand, would be a horrible precedent and against the long-term aims of the constitutional conservative/libertarian movement.

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## ATruepatriot

> That is a real issue. But it's not the only issue. And one can oppose that and also oppose abuses of power on the part of the president at the same time. Despite all the complaints I've seen here from people saying that Amash has said things supportive of the deep state or violations of the 4th Amendment or other such things, so far I've seen no evidence of Amash doing that, and when I've asked the complainers to point to any, none have been able to.


And we have yet to see any factual proof of what Amash says is truly legal in interpretation. A personal opinion and interpretation is not proof, it is just rumor and hearsay until proven as fact. Even legal representation has to also prove facts behind the claims an expert witness shares in a court of law. Anything other is denying Constitutional right to due process no matter who it is. Even if you hate Trump and think he deserves it. this is a very very bad precedent to allow happen heading into the future. Amash and his staff are not infallible gods either. If Amash was pure and infallible he would have had the integrity to run as a Libertarian not a Republican and he would have lost election. What about this misrepresentation? Would this lack of integrity and misrepresentation be worthy of impeachment and removal from office using similar opinion and hearsay without any real proof? It's just a bad precedent to support no matter who it is against. I would have stuck up for even Obama or Hillary in the same circumstances, like it or not it just ain't right.

Where is the detailed compiled list of actions Amash is referring to so that we can claim it as indeed fact or not? Are we ever going to get one? Ron Paul would have already had a detailed list and explanations of why ready before he made a claim such as this against the President of the United States. This would be the honest and righteous thing to do. Amash is hoping the blind will just follow without question. And they are...

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## Brian4Liberty

> https://www.facebook.com/fox17online...8780868617444/
> 
> 
> edit: here's another version that doesn't have the first minute cut out, probably is better
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/woodtv/videos/691087261321615


YouTube version:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsDs2fTbj1I

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## angelatc

> He also denies that the whole investigation was based on lies etc. and tries to imply that there were underlying crimes


The investigation was about Russian interference in our election, which indisputably resulted in the indictment of several Russians. 





> and that Trump successfully obstructed justice.
> 
> .


He never said Trump was successful. Just the opposite, actually, due to  the refusal of Trump's underlings to participate.

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## angelatc

> Where is the detailed compiled list of actions Amash is referring to so that we can claim it as indeed fact or not? ..


It's literally the entire second half of the report.

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## loveshiscountry

> 1:21. she owns him.
> 
> Then he taps dances...


Own him? She came across as not understanding whats important.

She doesn't understand his job or she just lied. She said "your job is to directly represent the popular will of your constituents".  Amash said it's his job to uphold the Constitution. And they can be mutually exclusive when the will of the people violate rights. 

Then she came up with some garbage by saying he didn't give a reason for impeachment and later did?? She says impeachment could cause a civil war? She's as crazy as a $#@!house rat. 

He didn't do anything about FISA? She lied.

She blathered on about him wanting national attention. It's always about policy and the topic of conversation and not some poser garbage. Then she complains that he lost support because he won by the smallest amount since he started? He won by 11% like that's a bad thing. She's full of $#@!. He hasn't changed. She has.
Don't fall for her good looks.

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## ATruepatriot

> It's literally the entire second half of the report.


This is what? 200 pages and we have no idea what and how Amash is personally interpreting these 200 pages?  Has Amash or his staff summarized it and condensed it with the detailed specific violations list and why Amash feels they are and exposed these yet? I would objectively read a list of violations and why Amash feels they are violations. But I have yet to see one, let alone from Amash since the burden of proof is on him alone for his claims. If he really had any integrity he would supply this to eliminate any doubt of his word, interpretation, and opinion. If Amash produces some serious reasonable doubt proof point by point you know that I have the integrity to stand corrected. And if anyone else other than him tries to do this they would just be guessing at what Amash might be seeing. Until he explains his position with details, it is legally just a rumor and hearsay based on the perspective and interpretation of just one person. No one else has produced these specific details either. Know why? Because in reality they have absolutely no clue what Amash is pointing at until Amash shares what he is pointing at.

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## juleswin

So Amash is saying that Trump should be impeached for obstruction of justice. So the guy around minute 39 says that he spend 30 yrs in prison for obstruction of justice on a crime he did not commit and Amash just brushed it off. I know the average American would be locked up for obstruction but the man's example tells us that its not cool to automatically lock someone up for obstructing justice.

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## ATruepatriot

> So Amash is saying that Trump should be impeached for obstruction of justice. So the guy around minute 39 says that he spend 30 yrs in prison for obstruction of justice on a crime he did not commit and Amash just brushed it off. I know the average American would be locked up for obstruction but the man's example tells us that its not cool to automatically lock someone up for obstructing justice.


Absolutely Jules... And this is exactly why presumption of innocence and due process is meant to supersede all other. They are meant to protect that one individual who might be innocent. And it is a blanket right afforded to every individual. It was once not so... There was a time when Women, Blacks, and Native Americans were not fully afforded these rights and it was fixed. Now only the President alone is denied these rights.

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## loveshiscountry

> So Amash is saying that Trump should be impeached for obstruction of justice. So the guy around minute 39 says that he spend 30 yrs in prison for obstruction of justice on a crime he did not commit and Amash just brushed it off. I know the average American would be locked up for obstruction but the man's example tells us that its not cool to automatically lock someone up for obstructing justice.


He didn't brush him off. That guy got up because he wanted to make it about himself. He publicized his case. That was obvious.

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## Swordsmyth

> I like what Amash is doing and I'm glad Massie and Rand are staying toward the right.  I think testing a left-appealing libertarian position is a good strategy, and Amash is definitely grabbing media attention which is good.  If he runs for president, I want him to run in the republican primary, not go libertarian party.


If you want him to move to the left then he should run in the Demoncrat primary.

But that would show that there is zero possibility of converting the left and that moving to the left is just a horrible idea.

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## PAF

> Seems like he's to the right of the GOP


+ Rep

Which is why Justin seems to always have a challenger. Typically the neocon line is you can’t beat an incumbent, but they sure do try when a true liberty representative holds office.

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## Swordsmyth

> That is the FULL-BLOWN STATIST position.
> 
> I support all people voting at the local level if that is what they wish to do. If you choose to homestead an open area, or open a business, and others in your locale also, it is up to that close-knit community to make decisions amongst themselves without state or federal interference.
> 
> Voting at the local level does not require registering with or funding "The Fed". It brings it back to the local level where it should be, and according to the 10th Amendment.
> 
> I understand why the Bill of Rights is being shredded though... it is not "invaders"... it is people like you who believe and support Restrictionism, Constitution Free Zones and government Eminent Domain - which are all communist/globalist agendas.


You support the invasion and electoral conquest of America by communist foreigners.

We know that already.

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## Swordsmyth

> Wow.  Welcome to 2008.  I remember Conservatives in a complete meltdown when Ron Paul suggested we "invited 9/11 attacks".


Conservatives are not perfect but unlike the left they don't believe in ever larger big government, we can convert many of them but the left is hopeless.

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## PAF

> You support the invasion and electoral conquest of America by communist foreigners.
> 
> We know that already.


Oh. It’s Sword-Shill again.

Carry on.

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## Swordsmyth

> Justin: "Under the current administration spending is sky-rocketing."
> 
> The lady around the :37 minute mark who can "think for herself"... understands NOTHING about obstruction.
> 
> She said: "trump is all for limited government."
> 
> Justin said: "President trump is not at all for limited government. That's just not true at all."
> 
> The lady said: "I can't debate you on that because I haven't researched that. However he wants to get rid of the Department of Education."
> ...


Justin seems to think Trump is a dictator.

Trump can't just get rid of the DoE by himself.

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## juleswin

> He didn't brush him off. That guy got up because he wanted to make it about himself. He publicized his case. That was obvious.


He gave his details so people can verify that he is not just bullshi**ing. Regardless, he did not give a good reply to the guys comments and that is a problem. At first I thought he was trying to make issue of the town hall about himself but later on, I asked myself if I would have believed it if he did not give details(that I haven't verified but I am sure someone did)

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## Swordsmyth

> Attending public school is not a right.


It is as long as it exists and our taxes pay for them.

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## PAF

> Conservatives are not perfect but unlike the left they don't believe in ever larger big government, we can convert many of them but the left is hopeless.


What kind of dope are you on?

Pathetic Omnibus, “emergency” spending bill, ban bump stocks and raise age to 21, USMCA signing ceremony, support government eminent domain, fine/report private businesses and companies to the Fed... here, this is quicker:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...-On-The-Record

“Conservatives” today are so far to the left it makes me wanna puke. The only conversion taking place is making them more communist, just like you.

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## Swordsmyth

> The conservatives who will not listen to his message just proves they're no more better than  the left when it comes to their idolatry.


No, Justin is lying and participating in a treasonous coup against the best President they have had in generations.
It's no wonder they are souring on anything else he has to say.
Conservatives are close enough ideologically that we might convert them but the left that Amash has decided to sell out to will never give up big government as their god, as soon as he has been used up in the fight against Trump they will demonize him.

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## Swordsmyth

> What kind of dope are you on?
> 
> Pathetic Omnibus, “emergency” spending bill, ban bump stocks and raise age to 21, USMCA signing ceremony, support government eminent domain, fine/report private businesses and companies to the Fed... here, this is quicker:
> 
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...-On-The-Record
> 
> “Conservatives” today are so far to the left it makes me wanna puke. The only conversion taking place is making them more communist, just like you.


The only argument you could make is that the entire world is hopeless and we should just give up.

Conservatives are the closest to us and our best hope for education, everyone else is completely assimilated into the cult of government.

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## PAF

> Justin seems to think Trump is a dictator.
> 
> Trump can't just get rid of the DoE by himself.


Justin never said he could. What Justin said was “he could make a move to do so”.

So, where’s the fire-side?

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## ATruepatriot

> Attending public school is not a right.


I'm going to agree with you here man. It's not a right, it is a punishment. lol

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## Swordsmyth

> He talks about this near the end of the townhall when a Trump supporter asked a similar question.  Basically his answer is that Trump is just using that as an excuse since he doesn't actually want to reform FISA;  Trump threatened to veto Amash's amendment.   
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.cf03c3e6c70d
> 
> The townhall is really worth the time to listen.


That is one of the worst answers he gives, the fact that Trump may or may not have wanted to reform FISA is no excuse to support its fraudulent weaponization.

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## PAF

> The only argument you could make is that the entire world is hopeless and we should just give up.


I do not give up. I stand principled and do what I can. That doesn't include slashing Justin’s throat.




> Conservatives are the closest to us and our best hope for education, everyone else is completely assimilated into the cult of government.


They are closest to you, not me.  Refer to post #62, last paragraph.

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## Swordsmyth

> Justin never said he could. What Justin said was “he could make a move to do so”.
> 
> So, where’s the fire-side?


Trump should waste his time getting nothing done by pushing for things that Congress will not allow instead of actually accomplishing things within his power or that Congress will agree to?

That sounds like typical Losertarian philosophy that has held back the movement for generations.

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## Swordsmyth

> I do not give up. I stand principled and do what I can. That does include slashing Justin’s throat.


It includes getting nothing done because you won't work with anyone and you go out of your way to make enemies out of the people who might work with you on some things.





> They are closest to you, not me.  Refer to post #62, last paragraph.


Who is closer to you?
Are you admitting to being a crypto-communist?

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## Swordsmyth

> The investigation was about Russian interference in our election, which indisputably resulted in the indictment of several Russians.


On garbage indictments that even if they were true had nothing to do with Trump.






> He never said Trump was successful. Just the opposite, actually, due to  the refusal of Trump's underlings to participate.


He implied he was, he said that prosecuting obstruction was most important when the underlying crime couldn't be proven because of the obstruction.

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## PAF

> Trump should waste his time getting nothing done by pushing for things that Congress will not allow instead of actually accomplishing things within his power or that Congress will agree to?
> 
> That sounds like typical Losertarian philosophy that has held back the movement for generations.


Let’s see: he talked of banning bump stocks, raise the age to 21, and all that jazz, even though he does not have the power to do so. Yet states took his lead.

But publicly talking about ending the FedDeptEd is a waste of time, because said states may follow his lead (via 10th A)?

Good one lol

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## PAF

> It includes getting nothing done because you won't work with anyone and you go out of your way to make enemies out of the people who might work with you on some things.
> 
> 
> 
> Who is closer to you?
> Are you admitting to being a crypto-communist?



Oh, I don’t know... for example, we seemed to have worked local to get rid of the red light cameras.

What have YOU done that is actually pro-liberty?

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## Swordsmyth

> Let’s see: he talked of banning bump stocks, raise the age to 21, and all that jazz, even though he does not have the power to do so. Yet states took his lead.
> 
> But publicly talking about ending the FedDeptEd is a waste of time, because said states may follow his lead (via 10th A)?
> 
> Good one lol


They will not, if something increases government it will get traction, if something reduces government it will not.

We have a lot of work to do educating the public and Trump has much more important things to do while he is in office.
In spite of all our efforts at education we won't turn things around until we actually get results and getting those results is Trump's job as POTUS.

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## Swordsmyth

> Oh, I don’t know... for example, we seemed to have worked local to get rid of the red light cameras.


A truly earth shattering accomplishment, that aught to get us to minarchy or even anarchy within a decade if you keep it up at that pace.

It is a good thing you did but it barely scratches the surface of tyranny and it is easy to get even the most hardened of statists to object to being milked for money personally by red light cameras.




> What have YOU done that is actually pro-liberty?


Plenty.

Now why don't you tell me who is closer to you ideologically than conservatives?

The answer is: NOBODY
Running to the left will only set back our efforts to reduce government in this country.

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## Swordsmyth

> Seems like he's to the right of the GOP


Not about Russigate and that is what we are discussing.

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## dannno

> The investigation was about Russian interference in our election, which indisputably resulted in the indictment of several Russians.


Now wait a minute, just because there was an indictment doesn't mean they could have been convicted. I don't even think there was ever a plan to prosecute them. They were indicted knowing full well they would never be prosecuted, which means they could have been, and likely were very sloppy indictments. 

Facebook ads taken about by Russia show they played both sides about equally, but spent what, less than $100k?? There is no proof they were in the bag for Trump, although I don't doubt there may have been a preference.. but the fact is they didn't do much. Seth Rich did way more than the Russians ever did, and he worked for the DNC.

ZERO people from the Trump campaign were found to have colluded with Russia after three years of the left screaming their heads off about Trump/Russia collusion. That is not just Trump that was exonerated, it was his ENTIRE CAMPAIGN STAFF!!

You really have to look at this from Trump's angle. They committed crimes and illegally obtained FISA warrants to spy on the Trump campaign. We've been discussing this here for years. Then they used those warrants to try and not only look for but also entrap Trump campaign members into committing crimes. They sent in agents to spy on the campaign.

Then after all that, they had NOTHING.. yet they kept going after him for several years, investigating people close to him and ruining their lives. In the end, they found nothing in regards to Trump and Russia collusion. They also didn't even get the DNC hack right. 

The whole thing was obviously and clearly a sham. I really don't know how you could possibly come to any other conclusion. 

Knowing the investigation was a complete sham, and was totally politically motivated, Trump actually aided Justice - not obstructed - AIDED justice by doing things that are within his power to help put an end to that nonsense, illegal, waste of money investigation. 

Who obstructed justice? The left. Mueller. They wasted so much time on a sham investigation when REAL crimes, REAL spying, REAL abuse of the political system for political purposes had taken place. THAT is obstructing justice. Trump was AIDING justice by trying to put an end to the madness so the real crimes could be investigated. 

I really don't know how a logical person could see it any other way.

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## loveshiscountry

> No, Justin is lying and participating in a treasonous coup against the best President they have had in generations.
> It's no wonder they are souring on anything else he has to say.
> Conservatives are close enough ideologically that we might convert them but the left that Amash has decided to sell out to will never give up big government as their god, as soon as he has been used up in the fight against Trump they will demonize him.


 The best? Least offensive is a better way to put it. Increasing spending and keeping us involved in other nations civil wars. But he doesn't take crap from anyone, so that's good? Calling Amash a sellout is silly drama.

----------


## loveshiscountry

> Now wait a minute, just because there was an indictment doesn't mean they could have been convicted. I don't even think there was ever a plan to prosecute them. They were indicted knowing full well they would never be prosecuted, which means they could have been, and likely were very sloppy indictments. 
> 
> Facebook ads taken about by Russia show they played both sides about equally, but spent what, less than $100k?? There is no proof they were in the bag for Trump, although I don't doubt there may have been a preference.. but the fact is they didn't do much. Seth Rich did way more than the Russians ever did, and he worked for the DNC.
> 
> ZERO people from the Trump campaign were found to have colluded with Russia after three years of the left screaming their heads off about Trump/Russia collusion. That is not just Trump that was exonerated, it was his ENTIRE CAMPAIGN STAFF!!
> 
> You really have to look at this from Trump's angle. They committed crimes and illegally obtained FISA warrants to spy on the Trump campaign. We've been discussing this here for years. Then they used those warrants to try and not only look for but also entrap Trump campaign members into committing crimes. They sent in agents to spy on the campaign.
> 
> Then after all that, they had NOTHING.. yet they kept going after him for several years, investigating people close to him and ruining their lives. In the end, they found nothing in regards to Trump and Russia collusion. They also didn't even get the DNC hack right. 
> ...


Isn't this about how Trump should not have used his legal authority to prevented the investigation? I believe I have worded that correctly. He has the legal authority to stop certain things. It was about him so he shouldn't use his power to stop it? 

The entire investigation in search of a crime was a sham from the getgo. It was obvious to me that people were trying to get any dirt on him that they could.

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## nikcers

> The best? Least offensive is a better way to put it. Increasing spending and keeping us involved in other nations civil wars. But he doesn't take crap from anyone, so that's good? Calling Amash a sellout is silly drama.


its really a suicide pill for the democrats, if they persue impeachment they lose in 2020 presidential elections and if they don't they lose their seats. This could be a draining of the swamp unless they want to sacrifice the 2020 election. This is checkmate.

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## loveshiscountry

> its really a suicide pill for the democrats, if they persue impeachment they lose in 2020 presidential elections and if they don't they lose their seats. This could be a draining of the swamp unless they want to sacrifice the 2020 election. This is checkmate.


You very well may be right. I believe this is what Pelosi is thinking too. It was a hail mary from the getgo. I wasn't thinking of what would happen down the line, although I didn't think much would come of the investigation. Wouldn't surprise me if Trump figured it out. Like him or not, he's good about using things like this to his advantage.

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## ATruepatriot

> its really a suicide pill for the democrats, if they persue impeachment they lose in 2020 presidential elections and if they don't they lose their seats. This could be a draining of the swamp unless they want to sacrifice the 2020 election. This is checkmate.


It's stupid to continue anyways. The Senate already said it's basically dead in the water when it gets to them. It's just a show of ignorance at this point, they are just making fools of themselves to anyone who has two brain cells to rub together.

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## nikcers

> You very well may be right. I believe this is what Pelosi is thinking too. It was a hail mary from the getgo. I wasn't thinking of what would happen down the line, although I didn't think much would come of the investigation. Wouldn't surprise me if Trump figured it out. Like him or not, he's good about using things like this to his advantage.


yeah I think JA is just trying to push them off the edge by encouraging it though, JA is smart.

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## Swordsmyth

> Isn't this about how Trump should not have used his legal authority to prevented the investigation? I believe I have worded that correctly. He has the legal authority to stop certain things. It was about him so he shouldn't use his power to stop it? 
> 
> The entire investigation in search of a crime was a sham from the getgo. It was obvious to me that people were trying to get any dirt on him that they could.


He had every right to stop it.

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## loveshiscountry

> He had every right to stop it.


Agreed. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

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## Swordsmyth

> Agreed. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.


In this case he should have and he can't be charged with obstructing justice.

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## loveshiscountry

> In this case he should have and he can't be charged with obstructing justice.


Doesn't have anything to do with my posts. It's not about what he can or can't be charged with in my posts.

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## Todd

> Conservatives are not perfect but unlike the left they don't believe in ever larger big government, we can convert many of them but the left is hopeless.


Look.  I'm an old man and don't believe your young man, naive fairy tale anymore about left vs right.  I grew up listening to Reagan beat the drums of small government tripe and then run up the first mega deficit.   I then was proud to supporter of the Buchanan brigade because I really believed "conservatives" wanted to change from big government in the 90's to small government.    And then in my absolute stupidity, I voted for W. Bush not once, but twice.   Then I learned my lesson.  I'm too young to believe that there is a significant number of people left who even resemble true small government conservatism 

You haven't nor will you convert $#@!. I watched it for front and center for the last 10 years and this movement had the single best chance in my lifetime to try to buck the system and it didn't happen.  

Here's the truth.  Most people you call Conservative are just Progressive lite.

THE default position for the majority of "Conservatives" and the left is one of complete capitulation on ever ending Government growth.

The new measure of left vs right in this country is 

1. How much deficit spending your willing to tolerate.
2. Unlimited state growth by degree
3. Social welfare of your personal political preferences.  (where you just bad mouth the other guys projects  exp. Welfare vs warfare) 

Those are new axioms in governing philosophy of the majority of politicians right and left.  Get used to it.   

You know what I think.  I think your just a run of the mill "Republican" and Trump supporter who decided after the election to just show up and  test the waters at old "Liberty Forest".  You know......See if everyone was ripe for MAGA!   I don't for one second believe you have any belief system beyond Trumpism...else you would have a better grasp of what the stakes were here around 2008 to 12 time frame.   You slip up way too much and then have the audacity to think some of us are stupid not to see it.  There are few that see right through it.

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## PAF

> Look.  I'm an old man and don't believe your young man, naive fairy tale anymore about left vs right.  I grew up listening to Reagan beat the drums of small government tripe and then run up the first mega deficit.   I then was proud to supporter of the Buchanan brigade because I really believed "conservatives" wanted to change from big government in the 90's to small government.    And then in my absolute stupidity, I voted for W. Bush not once, but twice.   Then I learned my lesson.  I'm too young to believe that there is a significant number of people left who even resemble true small government conservatism 
> 
> You haven't nor will you convert $#@!. I watched it for front and center for the last 10 years and this movement had the single best chance in my lifetime to try to buck the system and it didn't happen.  
> 
> Here's the truth.  Most people you call Conservative are just Progressive lite.
> 
> THE default position for the majority of "Conservatives" and the left is one of complete capitulation on ever ending Government growth.
> 
> The new measure of left vs right in this country is 
> ...



DAAAAMMMMNNN - It's like, I could have written that!

++++++ REP

We seriously need to help educate our offspring and those around us about the Declaration, NAP, and Contract Rights.


For parents and grandparents here, how about a simple lemonade stand, a project in the garage, to teach the little ones about what it would be like to have strangers come in and meddle in their business venture. This I have done and it really makes sense to them! Such as, something costs $0.50 to make. An outsider who has not contributed to the venture comes into the garage and tries to coerce charging $0.45 as a working wage. The kid is smart enough to know that making a nickel on his/her own product is not advantageous, and there ya go!

It really does come right down to education, and how much time one is willing to spend teaching the kids. THIS they do NOT teach at indoctrination camps!

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## Swordsmyth

> Look.  I'm an old man and don't believe your young man, naive fairy tale anymore about left vs right.  I grew up listening to Reagan beat the drums of small government tripe and then run up the first mega deficit.   I then was proud to supporter of the Buchanan brigade because I really believed "conservatives" wanted to change from big government in the 90's to small government.    And then in my absolute stupidity, I voted for W. Bush not once, but twice.   Then I learned my lesson.  I'm too young to believe that there is a significant number of people left who even resemble true small government conservatism 
> 
> You haven't nor will you convert $#@!. I watched it for front and center for the last 10 years and this movement had the single best chance in my lifetime to try to buck the system and it didn't happen.  
> 
> Here's the truth.  Most people you call Conservative are just Progressive lite.
> 
> THE default position for the majority of "Conservatives" and the left is one of complete capitulation on ever ending Government growth.
> 
> The new measure of left vs right in this country is 
> ...


If your beliefs were correct then what advantage is there in Amash running farther to the left?
You can either give up entirely or attempt to work with conservatives and convert them to be more small government.

I am a Conservertarian and I have never attempted to hide it, I was anti-Trump before he exceeded my expectations and I was part of the Ron Paul movement since before he ran in '08.

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## nikcers

> If your beliefs were correct then what advantage is there in Amash running farther to the left?
> You can either give up entirely or attempt to work with conservatives and convert them to be more small government.
> 
> I am a Conservertarian and I have never attempted to hide it, I was anti-Trump before he exceeded my expectations and I was part of the Ron Paul movement since before he ran in '08.


Why is allying with the people who don't think you are innocent until proven guilty such a bad idea? Its not like they weaponized the IRS against us.

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## Ender

> Look.  I'm an old man and don't believe your young man, naive fairy tale anymore about left vs right.  I grew up listening to Reagan beat the drums of small government tripe and then run up the first mega deficit.   I then was proud to supporter of the Buchanan brigade because I really believed "conservatives" wanted to change from big government in the 90's to small government.    And then in my absolute stupidity, I voted for W. Bush not once, but twice.   Then I learned my lesson.  I'm too young to believe that there is a significant number of people left who even resemble true small government conservatism 
> 
> You haven't nor will you convert $#@!. I watched it for front and center for the last 10 years and this movement had the single best chance in my lifetime to try to buck the system and it didn't happen.  
> 
> Here's the truth.  Most people you call Conservative are just Progressive lite.
> 
> THE default position for the majority of "Conservatives" and the left is one of complete capitulation on ever ending Government growth.
> 
> The new measure of left vs right in this country is 
> ...


WHOA, DUDE!

I think this just became my favorite post for the past 3 years!!!

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## loveshiscountry

> If your beliefs were correct then what advantage is there in Amash running farther to the left?
> You can either give up entirely or attempt to work with conservatives and convert them to be more small government.
> 
> I am a Conservertarian and I have never attempted to hide it, I was anti-Trump before he exceeded my expectations and I was part of the Ron Paul movement since before he ran in '08.


The expectations must have been low. Sure he's done some decent things but they've mostly been the small stuff. Talking with Russia and North Korea is good. Supreme Court appointees were decent. Could have been worse.

Lower spending, non intervention, audit the Fed. He's done none of these. You've lost your way.

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## Swordsmyth

> The expectations must have been low. Sure he's done some decent things but they've mostly been the small stuff. Talking with Russia and North Korea is good. Supreme Court appointees were decent. Could have been worse.
> 
> Lower spending, non intervention, audit the Fed. He's done none of these. You've lost your way.


My expectations were very low and I am open to any better option that comes along but he has done more good things than you list and he has kept the intervention below what the rest of DC wants.

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## Todd

> If your beliefs were correct then what advantage is there in Amash running farther to the left?
> You can either give up entirely or attempt to work with conservatives and convert them to be more small government.
> 
> I am a Conservertarian and I have never attempted to hide it, I was anti-Trump before he exceeded my expectations and I was part of the Ron Paul movement since before he ran in '08.


Well enjoy spinning your wheels.   I will NEVER tell anyone not to try, I just don't believe it works at the Federal or even party organized political level anymore.  And I will always support grassroots efforts to change things.  That's why I came here. 

But there is more to it than your false dichotomy.   Just because I don't believe it's Either/Or  doesn't make me one who "Gives Up".     I'm not "working" with any "Conservatives" for small government.  I'm going to work with EVERY persuasion to dialogue on what's in our own best interests as citizens.  

Conservatarian sounds confused, just like I thought.  It's a bunch of garbage. Not much of a guiding philosophy I'd say.  Not one of any foundation aspect anyhow.

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## PAF

> My expectations were very low and I am open to any better option that comes along but he has done more good things than you list and he has kept the intervention below what the rest of DC wants.


Your employer throws you and the base little bones. His restrictionism, failure to address root problems, never talking to his constituents about underlying cause/effect, will do nothing to advance liberty and fiscal responsibility. Everything that he does results in bigger government "solutions".

This is RPF. Those of us in the know are not buying what you are selling. In fact, you can't give it away.

As @loveshiscountry correctly stated: "Lower spending, non intervention, audit the Fed. He's done none of these." And he never will.

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## nikcers

> Your employer throws you and the base little bones. His restrictionism, failure to address root problems, never talking to his constituents about underlying cause/effect, will do nothing to advance liberty and fiscal responsibility. Everything that he does results in bigger government "solutions".
> 
> This is RPF. Those of us in the know are not buying what you are selling. In fact, you can't give it away.
> 
> As @loveshiscountry correctly stated: "Lower spending, non intervention, audit the Fed. He's done none of these." And he never will.


Rand seems to have good rapport with Trump what would you say about that? I think Trump has a chance to really advance civil liberties like speech and privacy but not if we get rid of him, not if we help his opposition tear him down.

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## Superfluous Man

> Why is allying with the people who don't think you are innocent until proven guilty such a bad idea?


You mean people who want to take your gun first and do due process later?

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## nikcers

> You mean people who want to take your gun first and do due process later?


like the democrats that Amash is siding with? Are you $#@!ing kidding me.

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## PAF

> I think Trump has a chance to really advance civil liberties like speech and privacy



I like this response:




> You mean people who want to take your gun first and do due process later?



And also that pathetic 6 year extension of 702 signed January 2018 - by trump himself.

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## Superfluous Man

> like the democrats that Amash is siding with? Are you $#@!ing kidding me.


Oh ok. So you're only talking about them, and not expressing a rule that would apply to others who don't think you're innocent until proven guilty.

I had a feeling you were being hypocritical there. But that's for saying it yourself so I didn't have to.

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## nikcers

> Oh ok. So you're only talking about them, and not expressing a rule that would apply to others who don't think you're innocent until proven guilty.
> 
> I had a feeling you were being hypocritical there. But that's for saying it yourself so I didn't have to.


Right so lets throw Rand's efforts with Trump away and give the presidency and Senate to the democrats I am sure they won't take our guns.

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## Superfluous Man

> Right so lets throw Rand's efforts with Trump away and give the presidency and Senate to the democrats I am sure they won't take our guns.


It's not my rule, it's yours. Perhaps you should rethink it for this reason.

But be honest, you don't follow your own rule either, as you're admitting now. You only made it up as a pretext for your blind support of Trump. It's only a rule you follow when it supports that cause, and can be discarded if it ever gets in the way of it.

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## nikcers

> It's not my rule, it's yours. Perhaps you should rethink it for this reason.
> 
> But be honest, you don't follow your own rule either, as you're admitting now. You only made it up as a pretext for your blind support of Trump. It's only a rule you follow when it supports that cause, and can be discarded if it ever gets in the way of it.


I dont support Trump I support Rand and his efforts, I have gotten more neg reps from Trump supporters than you will ever give me.

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## Superfluous Man

> I dont support Trump I support Rand and his efforts, I have gotten more neg reps from Trump supporters than you will ever give me.


Good. So you are comfortable with making alliances with people who don't believe you are innocent until proven guilty.

Do you stand by this? Or are you going to find some way to weasel back into pretending otherwise so that you can keep making baseless and irrational accusations against Amash?

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## nikcers

> Good. So you are comfortable with making alliances with people who don't believe you are innocent until proven guilty.
> 
> Do you stand by this? Or are you going to find some way to weasel back into pretending otherwise so that you can keep making baseless and irrational accusations against Amash?


I stand with Rand I would support him if he ran against Trump whole heartedly.

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## Superfluous Man

> I stand with Rand I would support him if he ran against Trump whole heartedly.


That's great to hear. I just want to make sure that you follow through on what you're saying and admit that you don't really think that someone believing people are guilty until proven innocent is a deal breaker when it comes to cooperating with them for some other cause. Because earlier in the thread you were pretending it was a deal breaker when you couldn't come up with any other basis for your irrational and baseless accusations against Amash.

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## nikcers

> That's great to hear. I just want to make sure that you follow through on what you're saying and admit that you don't really think that someone believing people are guilty until proven innocent is a deal breaker when it comes to cooperating with them for some other cause. Because earlier in the thread you were pretending it was a deal breaker when you couldn't come up with any other basis for your irrational and baseless accusations against Amash.


Lots of reasons for not supporting Amash's impeachment efforts, my very first reason is Pence is worse than Trump. Rand has no rapport with Pence.

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## nikcers



----------


## RonZeplin

> I like this response:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by *Superfluous Man*  
>                  You mean people who want to take your gun first and do due process later?
> 
> ...


Had to look that number up.....




> What is Section 702 surveillance?
> 
> Under *Section 702* of the Foreign Intelligence *Surveillance* Act (FISA), the U.S. government engages in mass, warrantless *surveillance* of Americans' and foreigners' phone calls, text messages, emails, and other electronic communications.


You're being monitored closely by Donnell's surveillance grid, don't try anything.

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## nikcers

> Had to look that number up.....
> 
> 
> You're being monitored closely by Donnell's surveillance grid, don't try anything.


Rand said when he spoke to Trump he told him that he doesn't want warrantless spying on the next president or political activists.

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## eleganz

This lady went nuclear on Justin at his townhall.  Shes a Trump supporter but most importantly, *she was an Amash supporter first*, from his initial 2010 campaign.  I have to admit, it doesn't look good.  Imagine someone as active as she is, fighting for his primary opponent.

Many "all or nothing Libertarians" love to see this because it's entertaining but it won't be so entertaining if Amash loses his seat.

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## fcreature

> but it won't be so entertaining if Amash loses his seat.


Why not?

----------


## jct74

Jesse Watters interviews pro-Trump town hall attendee and calls Justin a "Pelosi Democrat" 




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC5NyXPGv80

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## nikcers

> Jesse Watters interviews pro-Trump town hall attendee and calls Justin a "Pelosi Democrat" 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC5NyXPGv80


She made a fair point about FISA abuse but her stammering and forced phrasing of words and checking the phone for her script and lack of conviction in the way she speaks makes me think she was a plant. I sort of think she was paid to do that by whoever is runniing against Amash.

----------


## timosman

> She made a fair point about FISA abuse but her stammering and forced phrasing of words and checking the phone for her script and lack of conviction in the way she speaks makes me think she was a plant. I sort of think she was paid to do that by whoever is runniing against Amash.


Are you trying to refute what she said?

----------


## nikcers

> Are you trying to refute what she said?


no just that the way she said the words she was speaking in other peoples words, they weren't her own words. That's why I thought Watter's comment on whether or not she would run against Amash was funny because politicans talk like that sometimes when they are reading from a script.

----------


## donnay

> no just that the way she said the words she was speaking in other peoples words, they weren't her own words. That's why I thought Watter's comment on whether or not she would run against Amash was funny because politicans talk like that sometimes when they are reading from a script.


Did you ever think it was bulletpoints she wrote herself to make sure she got her point across without being interrupted/distracted and taken off the points she wanted to make?

----------


## nikcers

> Did you ever think it was bulletpoints she wrote herself to make sure she got her point across without being interrupted/distracted and taken off the points she wanted to make?


Yeah because you go to political rallys to make points instead of having a rapport with the representative.

----------


## nikcers

Let me check my check list of keywords so I can hit every political group possible. I don't really want you to repond to me with any of my points, I don't want you to change your mind on any of this, I just want to have a sound byte so I can go viral and campaign with your competitor against you.

----------


## nikcers

This is something AOC does all the time, you can really tell when she is reading from a script her handlers give her and when speaks her own words.

----------


## donnay

> Yeah because you go to political rallys to make points instead of having a rapport with the representative.


If you listen she brought up a lot of points--all good ones because she used to work for his campaign.

----------


## nikcers

> If you listen she brought up a lot of points--all good ones because she used to work for his campaign.


inb4 they use this in a competitors campaign ad.

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## Brian4Liberty

> Jesse Watters interviews pro-Trump town hall attendee and calls Justin a "Pelosi Democrat" 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC5NyXPGv80


Lol. "Pelosi" Democrat. Right. Amash was directly contradicting Pelosi, who was saying no to impeachment at that time. It's possible that part of Amash's motivation was to push Pelosi.

Kind of goes to show, neocons and teocons (like Watters), will use every opportunity to throw a libertarian under the bus.

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## TomtheTinker

> If you listen she brought up a lot of points--all good ones because she used to work for his campaign.


If we are talking about the same woman, literally nothing she said was true.

----------


## donnay

> If we are talking about the same woman, literally nothing she said was true.


Her name is Anna Timmer

----------


## loveshiscountry

> Lol. "Pelosi" Democrat. Right. Amash was directly contradicting Pelosi, who was saying no to impeachment at that time. It's possible that part of Amash's motivation was to push Pelosi.
> 
> Kind of goes to show, neocons and teocons (like Watters), will use every opportunity to throw a libertarian under the bus.


Agreed. Plus someone who has voted with Trump over 90% of the time this year is a Pelosi democrat? So Trumps a Pelosi democrat?

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## juleswin

> Agreed. Plus someone who has voted with Trump over 90% of the time this year is a Pelosi democrat? So Trumps a Pelosi democrat?


To be fair to Trump, he was only a Pelosi democrat because he had to pay for play. He wouldn't pretend to pay the RINOs because he lived in NY and all of NY pols are democrats

----------

