# Lifestyles & Discussion > Peace Through Religion >  I know I am saved because........

## jmdrake

Okay.  I've asked this question over and over again to the TULIP people and the OSAS people.  I never get a straight answer and often no answer is attempted.  The latest attempt was double speak.  At least erowe1 was honest enough to admit it was difficult to answer.  It's difficult to answer because, according to him, someone without saving faith could deceive himself into believing that he had saving faith and think that he related to God as Father when he was really at enmity with God.  According to erowe1 the person with "dead faith" could believe and do works of "dead faith" (not sure how that works, no pun intended), and think all along "I'm saved!  Praise Jesus!" and not be saved.  On the other hand, the person with the living faith should know he is saved because he can call out "Abba Father"....which is exactly what the unsaved self deceived person with death faith is doing.

So, in the end, under TULIP or OSAS, you can't every *really* know that you are saved.  Seriously.  The nature of self deception is that you, yourself, are deceived.  Okay, maybe someone else might tell you "You just think you're saved but you're not."  But *that* person could be deceived and/or a deceiver.  

Hmmmmm....how to sort this out?  Well salvation is based on your relationship with God.  One relationship that people can relate to (no pun intended) is marriage.  I'm divorced.  The other day I was talking to one of my sons and I asked the rhetorical question "Have I ever lied to you?"  He said "Yes. You said you'd never divorce mom."  I gently replied "I didn't divorce her.  She divorced me.  I can't control what someone else will do."  I'm not saying I'm perfect.  I made some bad mistakes and many people would say she had every right to divorce me.  (Some might argue otherwise but I'm not going there.)  However the truth is that if it had been up to me, nothing my wife could have done would have caused me to divorce her.  And that's how I look at my relationship with Jesus and why I have assurance.  Nothing I might do would cause Him not to love me and spiritually "divorce" me.  But He still allows me the freedom to "divorce" Him if that's what I insist on.  So, for me anyway, I expect no surprises on judgement day.  I'm not going to go through this life thinking I'm saved and one day hear "Psyche!  I've been pulling your leg all along!  You never were one of the elect.  You were predestined to hell!"  No will I hear "Sorry.  You just *thought* you believed in me.  You never really did.  You had deceived yourself into assurance of salvation."  As long as I want to be in this relationship, God's not going to throw me away.  And there have been some who have "divorced" Jesus but have come back.  I have no intention of taking that risk.

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## Kevin007

> Okay.  I've asked this question over and over again to the TULIP people and the OSAS people.  I never get a straight answer and often no answer is attempted.  The latest attempt was double speak.  At least erowe1 was honest enough to admit it was difficult to answer.  It's difficult to answer because, according to him, someone without saving faith could deceive himself into believing that he had saving faith and think that he related to God as Father when he was really at enmity with God.  According to erowe1 the person with "dead faith" could believe and do works of "dead faith" (not sure how that works, no pun intended), and think all along "I'm saved!  Praise Jesus!" and not be saved.  On the other hand, the person with the living faith should know he is saved because he can call out "Abba Father"....which is exactly what the unsaved self deceived person with death faith is doing.
> 
> So, in the end, under TULIP or OSAS, you can't every *really* know that you are saved.  Seriously.  The nature of self deception is that you, yourself, are deceived.  Okay, maybe someone else might tell you "You just think you're saved but you're not."  But *that* person could be deceived and/or a deceiver.  
> 
> Hmmmmm....how to sort this out?  Well salvation is based on your relationship with God.  One relationship that people can relate to (no pun intended) is marriage.  I'm divorced.  The other day I was talking to one of my sons and I asked the rhetorical question "Have I ever lied to you?"  He said "Yes. You said you'd never divorce mom."  I gently replied "I didn't divorce her.  She divorced me.  I can't control what someone else will do."  I'm not saying I'm perfect.  I made some bad mistakes and many people would say she had every right to divorce me.  (Some might argue otherwise but I'm not going there.)  However the truth is that if it had been up to me, nothing my wife could have done would have caused me to divorce her.  And that's how I look at my relationship with Jesus and why I have assurance.  Nothing I might do would cause Him not to love me and spiritually "divorce" me.  But He still allows me the freedom to "divorce" Him if that's what I insist on.  So, for me anyway, I expect no surprises on judgement day.  I'm not going to go through this life thinking I'm saved and one day hear "Psyche!  I've been pulling your leg all along!  You never were one of the elect.  You were predestined to hell!"  No will I hear "Sorry.  You just *thought* you believed in me.  You never really did.  You had deceived yourself into assurance of salvation."  As long as I want to be in this relationship, God's not going to throw me away.  And there have been some who have "divorced" Jesus but have come back.  I have no intention of taking that risk.


Salvation is something Jesus did. Once you accept that you cannot save yourself and it was all by His grace that you are, yes, you are saved.

And how do YOU know you are saved jm? When we accept Christ as our Savior, we are new creatures in Christ. The Holy Spirit doesn't leave a Believer. You can grieve the Spirit, but He doesn't leave you. God isn't an Indian Giver. People who are saved are saved. They have no reason to throw it away. jm-how are you trusting Jesus? Are you trusting in Him fully with your salvation?

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## jmdrake

> Salvation is something Jesus did. Once you accept that you cannot save yourself and it was all by His grace that you are, yes, you are saved.
> 
> And how do YOU know you are saved jm? When we accept Christ as our Savior, we are new creatures in Christ. The Holy Spirit doesn't leave a Believer. You can grieve the Spirit, but He doesn't leave you. God isn't an Indian Giver. People who are saved are saved. They have no reason to throw it away.


Except the evidence is clear that people who have accepted Jesus as Savior, believe He is savior, sometimes do throw it away.  That's clear from the parable of the sower and the seed.  The seed that grew and then died when beat down by the sun represented those who "Received the word with joy" but then withered away when persecution came because they had no root.  Erowe1 says these are people who were never saved to begin with but just *thought* they were saved.  Okay.  So how to know the difference?  He didn't have an answer.  You haven't answered that question either.  You just keep avoiding it.

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## Kevin007

> *Except the evidence is clear that people who have accepted Jesus as Savior, believe He is savior, sometimes do throw it away.*  That's clear from the parable of the sower and the seed.  The seed that grew and then died when beat down by the sun represented those who "Received the word with joy" but then withered away when persecution came because they had no root.  Erowe1 says these are people who were never saved to begin with but just *thought* they were saved.  Okay.  So how to know the difference?  He didn't have an answer.  You haven't answered that question either.  You just keep avoiding it.


what evidence?

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## Kevin007

jm- are you saved? If not why not? If so how do you know?

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## Deborah K

The truth is, I don't know if I am saved.  I hope that I am, and I believe that I am.....but I don't know for sure.

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## Deborah K

> Except the evidence is clear that people who have accepted Jesus as Savior, believe He is savior, sometimes do throw it away.  That's clear from the parable of the sower and the seed.  *The seed that grew and then died when beat down by the sun represented those who "Received the word with joy" but then withered away when persecution came because they had no root.*  Erowe1 says these are people who were never saved to begin with but just *thought* they were saved.  Okay.  So how to know the difference?  He didn't have an answer.  You haven't answered that question either.  You just keep avoiding it.


I would have to ask Erowe if St. Peter was saved then.

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## Kevin007

> The truth is, I don't know if I am saved.  I hope that I am, and I believe that I am.....but I don't know for sure.



*Acts 16:31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you ...*They said, "_Believe in the Lord_ Jesus, and _you will be saved_, you and your household.

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## jmdrake

> what evidence?


I already gave it.  Re-read.

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## jmdrake

> jm- are you saved? If not why not? If so how do you know?


Yes.  I surrendered my life to Jesus and continue to do so.  Now how do you know that you are saved and not self deceived?  Or do you simply reject Erowe1's self deception hypothesis?  (I wouldn't blame you if you did.  It's pretty hokey.)

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## Kevin007

> *Acts 16:31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you ...*
> 
> 
> 
> They said, "_Believe in the Lord_ Jesus, and _you will be saved_, you and your household.


thats why jm- I trust God.

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## Kevin007

> Yes.  I surrendered my life to Jesus and continue to do so.  Now how do you know that you are saved and not self deceived?  Or do you simply reject Erowe1's self deception hypothesis?  (I wouldn't blame you if you did.  It's pretty hokey.)


when were you saved? date?

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## jmdrake

> *Acts 16:31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you ...*They said, "_Believe in the Lord_ Jesus, and _you will be saved_, you and your household.


Right.  But there are people who believe who for whatever reason end up lost.  Again, the seed that fell own stoney ground represented those who received the words of Jesus "with joy."  By definition that had some kind of belief in Jesus.  But apparently that wasn't enough.  It's your side that keeps making the distinction between faith and "saving faith".  I've been trying to get one of you to nail down what that means other than the circular definition of "Those with saving faith endure until the end."  Yes.  That's all well and good.  Now how does someone know that they have "saving faith" when it isn't the end yet?

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## jmdrake

> when were you saved? date?


Sorry.  I'm not good with dates.  Especially dates decades ago.  Do you have a date?

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## jmdrake

> thats why jm- I trust God.


How do you know you are not one of those people that erowe1 talked about that think they are saved but are really self deceived?  Or do you reject his hypothesis?  If you do, can you please give your own on what differentiates those who have "faith" in Jesus from those who have "saving faith" in Jesus.  Thanks.

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## Kevin007

> Sorry.  I'm not good with dates.  Especially dates decades ago.  Do you have a date?


really? The most important day in your life, and you forgot? really? Me? Sunday April 6, 1997 at about 6pm ish. while watching Ed Hindson on TV showing Jesus on the Cross and realizing He died for my sins and that should've been me up there. Thanks for asking!

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## Kevin007

> How do you know you are not one of those people that erowe1 talked about that think they are saved but are really self deceived?  Or do you reject his hypothesis?  If you do, can you please give your own on what differentiates those who have "faith" in Jesus from those who have "saving faith" in Jesus.  Thanks.



I trust in Jesus' finished work and dozens of passages in the Bible and the NT as a whole. I cannot save myself, but Jesus can save me- He did

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## jmdrake

> really? The most important day in your life, and you forgot? really? Me? Sunday April 6, 1997 at about 6pm ish. while watching Ed Hindson on TV showing Jesus on the Cross and realizing He died for my sins and that should've been me up there. Thanks for asking!


Good for you.  I was 6 when I gave my life to Jesus.  That's like 4 decades ago?  If you remember all of your important dates from that long ago then great!  Wonderful!  You are smarter than me.

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## jmdrake

> I trust in Jesus' finished work and dozens of passages in the Bible and the NT as a whole. I cannot save myself, but Jesus can save me- He did


Yeah.....you still haven't answered the question.  But that's fine.  I'll assume you can't.

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## Kevin007

> Good for you.  I was 6 when I gave my life to Jesus.  That's like 4 decades ago?  If you remember all of your important dates from that long ago then great!  Wonderful!  You are smarter than me.


oh the dripping sarcasm You should be happy for me, no?

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## Kevin007

> Yeah.....you still haven't answered the question.  But that's fine.  I'll assume you can't.


whats the question?

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## jmdrake

> oh the dripping sarcasm You should be happy for me, no?


What sarcasm?  I am happy for you.  But I'm adding that, unless you are someone with a photographic memory, it's a bit much to expect someone else to remember the date that something happened 40 years ago when he was six.  And if you do have that kind of memory, good for you.

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## jmdrake

> whats the question?


The basic question is this.  What is the difference between saving faith and faith?  And using the circular answer "Saving faith is the one that endures until the end" is *not* allowed!  The corollary question is the same.  How do you know that *you* have it?  Saying "I trust the promises in the Bible" really doesn't answer the question.  Someone who doesn't have it could be trusting those same promises.  After all, the seed that fell on stone grown, grew up fast and then died, represented those who received the words of Jesus "with joy".  They were counting on those same promises.

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## Natural Citizen

> The truth is, I don't know if I am saved.


Yer good. You are stardust, Deborah. And, oh yes...to dust you will return.

Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. It's a physics.

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## Deborah K

> Yer good. You are stardust, Deborah. And, oh yes...to dust you will return.
> 
> Every atom in your body came from a str that exploded. It's a physics.


Indeed my body will turn to ashes.  But my being, my essence, my soul, my energy (energy never dies) will live on.

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## Natural Citizen

> Indeed my body will turn to ashes.  But my being, my essence, my soul, my energy (energy never dies) will live on.


There you go. That's the ticket.

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## Kevin007

> The basic question is this.  What is the difference between saving faith and faith?  And using the circular answer "Saving faith is the one that endures until the end" is *not* allowed!  The corollary question is the same.  How do you know that *you* have it?  Saying "I trust the promises in the Bible" really doesn't answer the question.  Someone who doesn't have it could be trusting those same promises.  After all, the seed that fell on stone grown, grew up fast and then died, represented those who received the words of Jesus "with joy".  They were counting on those same promises.


faith and saving faith are 2 different things. Anyone can have faith- in anything or anyone. Saving faith is what the Holy Spirit gives us. Like I said to Terry- I do good works, but don't like to talk or brag about it But it isn't my works that saved me or keep me saved- that is Jesus.

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## jmdrake

> faith and saving faith are 2 different things. Anyone can have faith- in anything or anyone. Saving faith is what the Holy Spirit gives us. Like I said to Terry- I do good works, but don't like to talk or brag about it But it isn't my works that saved me or keep me saved- that is Jesus.


Uh-huh.  And you know you are different from the person who has the fake faith who only *thinks* he got it from the Holy Spirit because....?

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## Deborah K

> Right.  But there are people who believe who for whatever reason end up lost.  *Again, the seed that fell own stoney ground represented those who received the words of Jesus "with joy."  By definition that had some kind of belief in Jesus.  But apparently that wasn't enough*.  It's your side that keeps making the distinction between faith and "saving faith".  I've been trying to get one of you to nail down what that means other than the circular definition of "Those with saving faith endure until the end."  Yes.  That's all well and good.  Now how does someone know that they have "saving faith" when it isn't the end yet?


Doesn't this include Peter?  After all, didn't he deny Christ when the going got tough - which is what the seed falling on the stone represents, right?  He ended up lost, but found his way back.    Sort of speaks to free will, doesn't it?

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## Kevin007

> Uh-huh.  And you know you are different from the person who has the fake faith who only *thinks* he got it from the Holy Spirit because....?


 why not ask them? I don't have "fake" faith. I do not know one person who does. The only people I know who might have faith like that is people who have faith that they are a "GOOD PERSON", and God will let them into Heaven based on that.

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## Deborah K

> There you go. That's the ticket.


Hah, yeah but the question is: Will my soul reside in heaven?  Or in the pit of hell?  The Bible clearly states: For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.  But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

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## Crashland

> why not ask them? I don't have "fake" faith. I do not know one person who does. The only people I know who might have faith like that is people who have faith that they are a "GOOD PERSON", and God will let them into Heaven based on that.


You must not know very many people, then.
Do you really not understand the concept that someone can ACTUALLY believe whole-heartedly that they have a saving faith from the Holy Spirit, and yet in the end turn away from the faith? Is that really so difficult to understand? I am right here! I am a real person. There are millions of people like me. There's your evidence.

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## Kevin007

> You must not know very many people, then.
> Do you really not understand the concept that someone can ACTUALLY believe whole-heartedly that they have a saving faith from the Holy Spirit, and yet in the end turn away from the faith? Is that really so difficult to understand? I am right here! I am a real person. There are millions of people like me. There's your evidence.


why did you turn away? Where is the Spirit now that was in you? When did you reject the free gift of salvation?

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## jmdrake

> Doesn't this include Peter?  After all, didn't he deny Christ when the going got tough - which is what the seed falling on the stone represents, right?  He ended up lost, but found his way back.    Sort of speaks to free will, doesn't it?


You know, this is quite a bit like Peter and Judas at the same time.  Peter denied Jesus.  Judas betrayed Jesus.  Both were upset at what happened.  Both had walked with Jesus.  Both had cast out demons.  Neither really understood Jesus' mission.  Judas hung himself.  Peter repented.  I'm sure the predestination and/or OSAS will say "Judas never believed."  I'm not so sure about that.

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## Kevin007

> You know, this is quite a bit like Peter and Judas at the same time.  Peter denied Jesus.  Judas betrayed Jesus.  Both were upset at what happened.  Both had walked with Jesus.  Both had cast out demons.  Neither really understood Jesus' mission.  Judas hung himself.  Peter repented.  I'm sure the predestination and/or OSAS will say "Judas never believed."  I'm not so sure about that.


except Judas was never saved- see my reply in the other thread...

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## jmdrake

> why not ask them?


Because if they are "self deceived" they wouldn't know.




> I don't have "fake" faith. I do not know one person who does. The only people I know who might have faith like that is people who have faith that they are a "GOOD PERSON", and God will let them into Heaven based on that.


Well I don't know of any person who has faith that they are a "good person".  I don't believe that.  None of the EO or RCC Christians you are arguing with constantly believe that.  If they have, they've never said it.

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## jmdrake

> except Judas was never saved- see my reply in the other thread...


Yeah....I know you'd say that.

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## RJB

> You must not know very many people, then.
> Do you really not understand the concept that someone can ACTUALLY believe whole-heartedly that they have a saving faith from the Holy Spirit, and yet in the end turn away from the faith? Is that really so difficult to understand? I am right here! I am a real person. There are millions of people like me. There's your evidence.


  I know exactly what you are talking about.  Some here seem to turn a spiritual life into an intellectual, legal experience.

I had a strong prayer life, felt Christ in my heart...   I was homeschooled and was a bit sheltered

When I joined the Marine I had a weekend out and did what all young men do, I went to Church the next Sunday and left halfway through out of shear boredom.  Or so I thought.  Really, the spirit of God left me.  Like the temple curtain ripping.

I was an atheist/agnostic for the next fifteen years.  I still have the skeptical mind believe it or not on a lot of issues.

Prayer and repentance is the only way to get it back.  I've been there.

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## lilymc

> The truth is, I don't know if I am saved.  I hope that I am, and I believe that I am.....but I don't know for sure.


I get what you're saying.   But God doesn't want us to be doubtful of unsure about our salvation, He wants us to have assurance, or else we are not trusting in Him, but in our own actions.   Please notice the parts I put in bold. 


1 John 5:10-13 

 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.   And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.   He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.


These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God,* so that you may know that you have eternal life.*

John 5:24 

 I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me *has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.*

John 10:27-30

"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. * I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.* My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one"

I think that many people, once in a while, worry about their salvation,  and I think that often their intentions are good.  But the scriptures show that God wants us to have assurance, and the bottom line is, He wants us to simply trust Him.  I believe the important thing is where we put our trust.  If we put our trust in our own works, then we will forever be doubtful and worried about whether or not we're saved.  We will forever have that dark cloud of doubt hanging over our head, because we doubt ourselves and our future.  But does God want us to live a life of doubt and worry?  No, I think the scriptures are clear on that.   

Salvation is not based on our works but in what JESUS did, and once we put our faith fully in Him, and become born from above, we pass from death to life.    When that happens, we can have assurance that God wants us to have.

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## Kevin007

its funny- 11 Disciples stayed with Jesus' mission of the Gospel and died for Him. Yet one betrays him and hangs himself- yet Judas was saved as well? lol, you just can't make this stuff up. BTW- Jesus hadn't died yet so technically none of them were saved yet.

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## Miss Annie

I know I am saved because I have faith that Jesus' work on the cross is sufficient for the remission of my sins.

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## Crashland

> why did you turn away? Where is the Spirit now that was in you? When did you reject the free gift of salvation?


You really want to hear it? Okay.

My turning away was a slow and painful process over the course of about 4 years as I attempted to hold onto my faith while experiencing ever-increasing doubt. It originally started when I had a very strong faith and developed an interest in Christian apologetics to strengthen my faith and to help me reach out better to non-believers. However between studying Christian apologetics and studying the Bible, I saw more and more flaws in what I had originally believed. Long story short, after spending those 4 years trying more and more desperately to cling to my beliefs, there came a point where I realized that if I was going to be honest with myself, I had to admit to myself that I just didn't believe anymore. There was one night in particular where I pleaded one last time to God to help me with my unbelief (Mark 9:24).  Anyway, after that I remember thinking to myself "Is that it?" "Am I really not a Christian anymore?". It took a while for me to come to grips with this, but over time I have come to accept it.

So, in summary, yes, I did at one time believe with all my heart that I had the Holy Spirit living in me. I don't believe that now, and obviously I don't believe that I ever did. But that doesn't negate the fact that at the time, I was absolutely convinced that I did. What jm is trying to say to you is, how do you know that you aren't one of those people who are currently convinced that you have the Holy Spirit living in you, only to eventually come out of that belief? How do you know that you aren't convinced like I was convinced 10 years ago?

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## Influenza

The general consensus seems to be that people are saved by faith alone. Is it possible to be "un-saved" by "bad works" (sin) ?

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## lilymc

> I know I am saved because I have faith that Jesus' work on the cross is sufficient for the remission of my sins.


Amen!!  Same here, and I'm happy that we're sisters in Christ.

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## Kevin007

> You really want to hear it? Okay.
> 
> My turning away was a slow and painful process over the course of about 4 years as I attempted to hold onto my faith while experiencing ever-increasing doubt. It originally started when I had a very strong faith and developed an interest in Christian apologetics to strengthen my faith and to help me reach out better to non-believers. However between studying Christian apologetics and studying the Bible, *I saw more and more flaws in what I had originally believed.* Long story short, after spending those 4 years trying more and more desperately to cling to my beliefs, there came a point where I realized that if I was going to be honest with myself, I had to admit to myself that I just didn't believe anymore. There was one night in particular where I pleaded one last time to God to help me with my unbelief (Mark 9:24).  Anyway, after that I remember thinking to myself "Is that it?" "Am I really not a Christian anymore?". It took a while for me to come to grips with this, but over time I have come to accept it.
> 
> So, in summary, yes, I did at one time believe with all my heart that I had the Holy Spirit living in me. I don't believe that now, and obviously I don't believe that I ever did. But that doesn't negate the fact that at the time, I was absolutely convinced that I did. What jm is trying to say to you is, how do you know that you aren't one of those people who are currently convinced that you have the Holy Spirit living in you, only to eventually come out of that belief? How do you know that you aren't convinced like I was convinced 10 years ago?


Like what?

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## Kevin007

> The general consensus seems to be that people are saved by faith alone. Is it possible to be "un-saved" by "bad works" (sin) ?


 no. bad works can be any sin. If that were the case not one of us could be saved. not one.

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## Influenza

> no. bad works can be any sin. If that were the case not one of us could be saved. not one.


Obviously. However that is with the assumption that any single sin, no matter how minor, is worthy of hellfire. What if the sin was not repented (or even known) by the sinner? Does that change anything?

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## jmdrake

> You really want to hear it? Okay.
> 
> My turning away was a slow and painful process over the course of about 4 years as I attempted to hold onto my faith while experiencing ever-increasing doubt. It originally started when I had a very strong faith and developed an interest in Christian apologetics to strengthen my faith and to help me reach out better to non-believers. However between studying Christian apologetics and studying the Bible, I saw more and more flaws in what I had originally believed. Long story short, after spending those 4 years trying more and more desperately to cling to my beliefs, there came a point where I realized that if I was going to be honest with myself, I had to admit to myself that I just didn't believe anymore. There was one night in particular where I pleaded one last time to God to help me with my unbelief (Mark 9:24).  Anyway, after that I remember thinking to myself "Is that it?" "Am I really not a Christian anymore?". It took a while for me to come to grips with this, but over time I have come to accept it.
> 
> So, in summary, yes, I did at one time believe with all my heart that I had the Holy Spirit living in me. I don't believe that now, and obviously I don't believe that I ever did. But that doesn't negate the fact that at the time, I was absolutely convinced that I did. What jm is trying to say to you is, how do you know that you aren't one of those people who are currently convinced that you have the Holy Spirit living in you, only to eventually come out of that belief? How do you know that you aren't convinced like I was convinced 10 years ago?


Okay.  I'll be honest.  I cried a little when I read this.  Not just from the theological "Oh know he's not in Jesus!  Have mercy Lord!" point of view, but it just sounds sad and painful.  Anyway, here's how I deal with stuff in the Bible that I don't understand.  I don't block it out and pretend it's not there.  But I have faith that *eventually* I'll understand everything.  Remember Dezzi Arnez?  "Lucy!  You got a lot of 'splaining to do!"  I have real honest to goodness questions for God.  That's one of my motivations for heaven!    I'm not worried about so called discrepancies.  Those are easy to deal with.  The book of Joshua is the hardest for me.  (Why kill the babies?)  I refuse both to lose faith over such stories or to gloss them over with shallow explanations.  I heard some religious commentators on the radio claim that the people in Canaan were utterly destroyed because they practiced child sacrifice.  So...kill the babies to save them from being killed?  I know this probably isn't helping renew your faith any.    I guess what I'm saying is I can have faith in a God who's old testament actions I don't fully understand because His new testament actions are so wonderful and I can find those actions threaded through the old testament.  Anyway, I'm rambling now.  Time to log off.

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## Crashland

> As long as I want to be in this relationship, God's not going to throw me away.  And there have been some who have "divorced" Jesus but have come back.  I have no intention of taking that risk.


This is essentially Pascal's wager. Even if you experience doubt or even if you want to fall away for selfish reasons, you'll still keep trying because if God is who the Bible says he is, then he won't leave behind or give up on someone who is honestly still seeking to be in that relationship. For me, this was a very powerful line of reasoning and it is part of what made my "deconversion" a slow and painful process. What ends up breaking Pascal's wager though, is that it makes the incorrect assumption that there are only two options -- accept or reject God. In reality though, there are hundreds, thousands of different religious beliefs that everyone rejects -- which are, every single religion other than their own. Everyone rejects many many times more religious beliefs than they accept, and any one of those rejections could be the one that costs you your salvation if you happen to be wrong and that one turns out to be true. With those odds, it's not really as much of a risk to stop pursuing the relationship if you just don't think it's true. And in that case, the reward is being true to yourself and doing what you feel is right in your heart.

I'm not saying any of that is applicable to you, if you really believe then it's a non-issue. I'm just sharing my own experience.

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## Crashland

> Like what?


We can have a separate discussion about that if you want, but I'd rather stick closer to the topic. I don't want to turn it into a atheist/Christian debate.

----------


## jmdrake

> This is essentially Pascal's wager. Even if you experience doubt or even if you want to fall away for selfish reasons, you'll still keep trying because if God is who the Bible says he is, then he won't leave behind or give up on someone who is honestly still seeking to be in that relationship. For me, this was a very powerful line of reasoning and it is part of what made my "deconversion" a slow and painful process. What ends up breaking Pascal's wager though, is that it makes the incorrect assumption that there are only two options -- accept or reject God. In reality though, there are hundreds, thousands of different religious beliefs that everyone rejects -- which are, every single religion other than their own. Everyone rejects many many times more religious beliefs than they accept, and any one of those rejections could be the one that costs you your salvation if you happen to be wrong and that one turns out to be true. With those odds, it's not really as much of a risk to stop pursuing the relationship if you just don't think it's true. And in that case, the reward is being true to yourself and doing what you feel is right in your heart.
> 
> I'm not saying any of that is applicable to you, if you really believe then it's a non-issue. I'm just sharing my own experience.


I actually believe.  Not just from the Bible but from my own experiences.  (From what I recall you had your own spiritual experiences?  Or is that someone else?)  But yeah, I see you point from a generic point of view.  Of course if you believed that if you truly believed in God then He would lead you to the "right" religion whatever that may be, then you're still okay either way.    This reminds me of a joke from the Christian comedian Mike Warenky(sp?).  He talked about an atheist he met on the way to Vietnam.  Halfway through their tour the now former atheist was wearing a cross, a star of David, a star and crescent, a Buddha and some eagle feathers.  When asked why the atheist said "I believe!"  When asked "in what" the atheist said "I don't know.  But I can't afford to make anybody mad!"

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## Natural Citizen

> Hah, yeah but the question is: Will my soul reside in heaven?  Or in the pit of hell?  The Bible clearly states: For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.  But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.


But what does that quote have to do with Heaven or Hell? The only way that it could would be if one were to establish the notion that order itself is a product of his or her own moral perception of himself or herself. Of course, i agree that man cannot let go of his infantile need for centrality but do you see what I mean here?

Actually, just pm me if you want to have a chit chat about my thought on it. I don't really feel like the whole group thing. If not then that's okay too. You probably already know my position on these kinds of things anyhow.

----------


## RJB

I hear you.  My mother recommended I read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis as if that my doubts in an invisible being would be cured by logic, but each point he though he made, I saw dozens of options for disagreements.




> This is essentially Pascal's wager. Even if you experience doubt or even if you want to fall away for selfish reasons, you'll still keep trying because if God is who the Bible says he is, then he won't leave behind or give up on someone who is honestly still seeking to be in that relationship. For me, this was a very powerful line of reasoning and it is part of what made my "deconversion" a slow and painful process. What ends up breaking Pascal's wager though, is that it makes the incorrect assumption that there are only two options -- accept or reject God. In reality though, there are hundreds, thousands of different religious beliefs that everyone rejects -- which are, every single religion other than their own. Everyone rejects many many times more religious beliefs than they accept, and any one of those rejections could be the one that costs you your salvation if you happen to be wrong and that one turns out to be true. With those odds, it's not really as much of a risk to stop pursuing the relationship if you just don't think it's true. And in that case, the reward is being true to yourself and doing what you feel is right in your heart.
> 
> I'm not saying any of that is applicable to you, if you really believe then it's a non-issue. I'm just sharing my own experience.

----------


## Miss Annie

> The general consensus seems to be that people are saved by faith alone. Is it possible to be "un-saved" by "bad works" (sin) ?


Mt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

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## Crashland

> Okay.  I'll be honest.  I cried a little when I read this.  Not just from the theological "Oh know he's not in Jesus!  Have mercy Lord!" point of view, but it just sounds sad and painful.  Anyway, here's how I deal with stuff in the Bible that I don't understand.  I don't block it out and pretend it's not there.  But I have faith that *eventually* I'll understand everything.  Remember Dezzi Arnez?  "Lucy!  You got a lot of 'splaining to do!"  I have real honest to goodness questions for God.  That's one of my motivations for heaven!    I'm not worried about so called discrepancies.  Those are easy to deal with.  The book of Joshua is the hardest for me.  (Why kill the babies?)  I refuse both to lose faith over such stories or to gloss them over with shallow explanations.  I heard some religious commentators on the radio claim that the people in Canaan were utterly destroyed because they practiced child sacrifice.  So...kill the babies to save them from being killed?  I know this probably isn't helping renew your faith any.    I guess what I'm saying is I can have faith in a God who's old testament actions I don't fully understand because His new testament actions are so wonderful and I can find those actions threaded through the old testament.  Anyway, I'm rambling now.  Time to log off.


Yeah, it was definitely painful. I appreciate your compassion. When you're a Christian, as you know, your faith is a part of your very identity - your moral basis, a source of hope, and your reason to live. If you lose that, you go into a bit of an existential crisis. There are other answers out there though, and obviously I'm still here and am much more comfortable about things now than I was when it was happening.

You're right though, you don't need to have all of the answers to still have faith. All I can ask of myself (or anyone), is to know what you believe, why you believe it, and why you don't believe something else. You can never have 100% confidence, but you can continually seek to understand your own beliefs (and others) in a way that you can be satisfied that you are doing your best. And that can, and does, lead different people to different places.

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## Crashland

> I hear you.  My mother recommended I read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis as if that my doubts in an invisible being would be cured by logic, but each point he though he made, I saw dozens of options for disagreements.


C.S. Lewis is still one of my favorite apologists. The first time I read Mere Christianity I agreed with everything in it. The second time, not as much. But I really liked the way Lewis wrote.

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## RJB

> C.S. Lewis is still one of my favorite apologists. The first time I read Mere Christianity I agreed with everything in it. The second time, not as much. But I really liked the way Lewis wrote.


I've always been a CS Lewis fan too.

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## Deborah K

> But what does that quote have to do with Heaven or Hell? The only way that it could would be if one were to establish the notion that order itself is a product of his or her own moral perception of himself or herself. Of course, i agree that man cannot let go of his infantile need for centrality but do you see what I mean here?
> 
> Actually, just pm me if you want to have a chit chat about my thought on it. I don't really feel like the whole group thing. If not then that's okay too. You probably already know my position on these kinds of things anyhow.


For me, the quote has to do with Heaven and Hell because I perceive death and destruction, as is written about in the Bible as Hell, and I perceive life, as is written about in the Bible as Heaven.  That's all.  It's really that simple.

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## Deborah K

> I get what you're saying.   But God doesn't want us to be doubtful of unsure about our salvation, He wants us to have assurance, or else we are not trusting in Him, but in our own actions.   Please notice the parts I put in bold. 
> 
> 
> 1 John 5:10-13 
> 
>  The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.   And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.   He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
> 
> 
> These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God,* so that you may know that you have eternal life.*
> ...


This is really nice, Lily.  Thank you.  I should probably clarify my meaning.  When I wrote that I believe I am saved but I'm not sure, it's because even though I love the Lord with all my heart and soul, I am a lowly sinner.  And sometimes I sin, knowing it full well, and instead of refraining, I do it anyway.  I ask for forgiveness, and I ask for guidance, and I know he doesn't expect me to be perfect at all times, but I can't reconcile that I sin, knowing that I'm doing it - and do it anyway.  Does it matter that my sins are venial?  I don't think it does.

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## Influenza

> Mt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
> Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


And this is Christianity's biggest problem. Free slate to do anything you want (except blasphemy) as long as you have faith in Jesus dying for your sins! How convenient!

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## Terry1

> The truth is, I don't know if I am saved.  I hope that I am, and I believe that I am.....but I don't know for sure.


Same here Deb.  This is why Jesus told us not to worry about tomorrow because the evil of the day is sufficient thereof.  If we're walking in the spirit today--we don't have to worry about tomorrow and that's the beauty of living within the will of God and abiding in Christ today--tomorrow doesn't exist yet.  We know we're saved and of the elect today and beyond that--not even Apostle Paul himself knew because he understood the weakness of the flesh and the uncertainty of tomorrow.  1 Corinthians 9:27.

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## Terry1

When the day comes and any one of us who now walk in the spirit of the Lord take our last breath--we will know then whether we've kept the faith or not, but not until then.  Until then Gods word tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and for a really good reason too.  It's because while in the state of flesh and bone--we are always targets for the principalities of darkness.  They're waiting for us to step out of that light and back into darkness and this is why we're warned over and over again to "remain" and "continually walk in the spirit of the Lord".  It's the only thing that keeps us from falling in this life.  

This is also why we should be careful as to what we fill our eyes, ears, hands, heart, mind and mouth with every day in a world that serves darkness and evil.  This is why the Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9:27--

*27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.  
*

Paul knew how just how weak our flesh is and that it wars with the spirit of the Lord in us every day.  Temptation surrounds us--but He that is in us is stronger than he that is in this world.  That is your refuge and promise.  You'll never be tested beyond what God knows you're able to overcome.  Hence Revelation 3:5 King James Version (KJV)

*5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.*

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## Terry1

> You really want to hear it? Okay.
> 
> My turning away was a slow and painful process over the course of about 4 years as I attempted to hold onto my faith while experiencing ever-increasing doubt. It originally started when I had a very strong faith and developed an interest in Christian apologetics to strengthen my faith and to help me reach out better to non-believers. However between studying Christian apologetics and studying the Bible, I saw more and more flaws in what I had originally believed. Long story short, after spending those 4 years trying more and more desperately to cling to my beliefs, there came a point where I realized that if I was going to be honest with myself, I had to admit to myself that I just didn't believe anymore. There was one night in particular where I pleaded one last time to God to help me with my unbelief (Mark 9:24).  Anyway, after that I remember thinking to myself "Is that it?" "Am I really not a Christian anymore?". It took a while for me to come to grips with this, but over time I have come to accept it.
> 
> So, in summary, yes, I did at one time believe with all my heart that I had the Holy Spirit living in me. I don't believe that now, and obviously I don't believe that I ever did. But that doesn't negate the fact that at the time, I was absolutely convinced that I did. What jm is trying to say to you is, how do you know that you aren't one of those people who are currently convinced that you have the Holy Spirit living in you, only to eventually come out of that belief? How do you know that you aren't convinced like I was convinced 10 years ago?


Crash--without a doubt--I can assure that whatever told you that you didn't believe was not of the spirit of the Lord but of the spirit of evil, lies and deception.  I can still see Gods hand working in your life just by what you've written.  He hasn't given up on you yet.  God works in His own time with individuals--some come early and some come late and for Gods own reasons.  And there could be a reason that you were drawn away from that doctrine you were into then too.  

The evidence of God is clearly seen in everything around you that has no beginning and no end.  Pascal's Wager is not without it's merit on one level stating--It posits that humans all bet with their lives either that God exists or not. Given the possibility that God actually does exist and assuming an infinite gain or loss associated with belief or unbelief in said God (as represented by an eternity in heaven or hell), a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.

It's always to your benefit to seek to understand who God is through His word and seeking Him out.  Another theologian once said that he didn't believe that God would reveal Himself to a man until that man had been desperately broken in some way.  In other words--usually when a person is left with nothing, no one and no where left to go is when they look up and say--"God if you're real please help me".

It's not the same for everyone.  God knows what will draw people to Him on an individual basis.  Our relationships with Him are personal and there's a reason that you're here reading these threads now.  God isn't done with you yet--you may think you're done with Him--but I believe He has some good news for you.

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## Miss Annie

> And this is Christianity's biggest problem. Free slate to do anything you want (except blasphemy) as long as you have faith in Jesus dying for your sins! How convenient!


You think liberty is bad?  A no no?

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## Crashland

> The evidence of God is clearly seen in everything around you that has no beginning and no end.  Pascal's Wager is not without it's merit on one level stating--It posits that humans all bet with their lives either that God exists or not. Given the possibility that God actually does exist and assuming an infinite gain or loss associated with belief or unbelief in said God (as represented by an eternity in heaven or hell), a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.


I disagree about Pascal's Wager. It is not valid when you are considering whether or not a _particular_ god exists - a god where particular qualities/attributes are assumed - such as the God as described by Christianity or as described by other religions. In this case, it falls apart because there are so many different descriptions of god/gods to choose which one to please, and it is no longer a binary decision. On the other hand, if you are considering whether a generic god exists - where you do not assume any particular attributes - there aren't really any implications of the wager at all, because you would not be assuming that the higher power is morally good, or whether he created a heaven/hell for example.

The way I see it, perhaps the best wager is in the middle, where you assume only some very basic attributes. Personally, if I start with the consideration of the existence of a god with only two known attributes: (1) being morally good, and (2) having full knowledge of who I am, even better than I know myself. I would definitely place my wager to live as if such a god exists. Why? Because (1) if such a god does exist, then if I try my best I do not need to worry about making a case for myself. Everything would be known and my fate would be in the best possible hands. And (2) if such a god does not exist, or if it's a different kind of god, then I might not want to associate with that kind of god anyway.





> Crash--without a doubt--I can assure that whatever told you that you didn't believe was not of the spirit of the Lord but of the spirit of evil, lies and deception.  I can still see Gods hand working in your life just by what you've written.  He hasn't given up on you yet.  God works in His own time with individuals--some come early and some come late and for Gods own reasons.  And there could be a reason that you were drawn away from that doctrine you were into then too.





> It's always to your benefit to seek to understand who God is through His word and seeking Him out.  Another theologian once said that he didn't believe that God would reveal Himself to a man until that man had been desperately broken in some way.  In other words--usually when a person is left with nothing, no one and no where left to go is when they look up and say--"God if you're real please help me".
> 
> It's not the same for everyone.  God knows what will draw people to Him on an individual basis.  Our relationships with Him are personal and there's a reason that you're here reading these threads now.  God isn't done with you yet--you may think you're done with Him--but I believe He has some good news for you.



I suppose I can't disprove that. I try to keep an open mind - that's essentially what got me to this point, and it could always get me somewhere else in the future. I see it kind of like a science. My goal should be to critically look at my own beliefs, regardless of whether at the time those happen to be theistic beliefs or atheistic ones. Having to change a belief, because your previous belief couldn't hold water or because of new evidence or more education, should be a cause for celebration, not concern. When you subject your beliefs to criticism, either you end up strengthening your existing beliefs, or you end up having to change your belief to something that is more likely to be true. Win-win. That's part of why I continue to engage in conversation on religion forums  It's a good thing for everybody.

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## Influenza

> You think liberty is bad?  A no no?


Just lol... 

Most religions teach to not murder, steal, lust, etc, etc as they are deemed "sinful" or "against the religion." However, in Christianity you may sin as much as you want, yet are saved as long as you truly believe that your sins were compensated through the supposed sacrifice of Christ. The common phrase is: "Jesus died for my sins."

Need not worry all believing, faithful Christians. Although our teachings may advise against sinning, it doesn't really matter because you're saved anyway! Go steal, plunder, conquer, and murder in this life, and live in heaven for eternity after death!

Obviously no one is "restricting freedom or liberty." One imposes those restrictions on themselves willfully. The only real incentive to doing good deeds and keeping away from sin is if there is hell/heaven depending on your actions.

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## Crashland

> It's always to your benefit to seek to understand who God is through His word and seeking Him out.  Another theologian once said that he didn't believe that God would reveal Himself to a man until that man had been desperately broken in some way.  In other words--usually when a person is left with nothing, no one and no where left to go is when they look up and say--"God if you're real please help me".


One other comment on this. Reminds me of the "There are no atheists in foxholes." That could very well be true, at least for me, I think it's natural. Hypothetically if I were put in a situation where my life is in serious danger or if I knew I was imminently dying, I would imagine I would probably pray to God, being scared $#@!less. This might also extend to what you are saying, with a person not necessarily being in imminent danger, but being broken, left with nothing,...etc. When we as humans have a need that can't be met, which will happen to all of us at some point, there is definitely a factor of desperation. I accept that as pretty much inevitable, and sad, but also okay.

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## lilymc

> Just lol... 
> 
> Most religions teach to not murder, steal, lust, etc, etc as they are deemed "sinful" or "against the religion." However, in Christianity you may sin as much as you want, yet are saved as long as you truly believe that your sins were compensated through the supposed sacrifice of Christ. The common phrase is: "Jesus died for my sins."
> 
> Need not worry all believing, faithful Christians. Although our teachings may advise against sinning, it doesn't really matter because you're saved anyway! Go steal, plunder, conquer, and murder in this life, and live in heaven for eternity after death!
> 
> Obviously no one is "restricting freedom or liberty." One imposes those restrictions on themselves willfully. The only real incentive to doing good deeds and keeping away from sin is if there is hellfire/heaven depending on your actions.


When a person gets saved and is born spiritually, they become a new creation.  (2 Cor. 5:17)    That saved person has a new heart, a new nature, and they are sealed with the Holy Spirit.    It's hard to put it into words, but it's an actual event that takes place that is life-changing.      We no longer want to do all the same things we used to.  When you love God, you don't want to go out and do horrible things that go against God's will.

Also, when one becomes a son or daughter of God, you can't get away with sin, at least not for very long.   The bible clearly states that God disciplines His children. (Prov. 3:12, Heb. 12:6)  And that discipline can be painful.  (I know, I've been through it!  But that's how we learn.) 

So, sometimes a "baby Christian"  (a new Christian) who  doesn't realize the importance of obedience and being fully surrendered to God might do things they shouldn't be doing.

God will soon teach them and show them...even if that means that person has to go through something very difficult, in order to learn that lesson.

So, it's not as if a new Christian says, "Woohooo! I'm saved now! I can go out and sin to my heart's content and it won't matter!"       No, that's not the way it works. God disciplines those He loves.

God has the ability to make our life really difficult, if He wants to wake us up and get us to learn something. He can cause us to lose our job, our home, He can do whatever it takes to get us to learn and grow.  

So not only do new believers have a new nature, and no longer want to do all the same things as in their past...but even if they were to sin, God will not let them stay on a wrong path for very long.

Also, a true Christian eventually realizes that the things we do can either lead others to God, or away from God.   So, if we love other people, that's yet another reason to not sin, but to do the exact opposite.... to be set apart, to be an example to others.    

As some of my missionary friends say, we need to be "Jesus with skin on."       Because we are supposed to represent Christ... so why would a true believer want to do horrible things, which might lead others away from God?

Of course, we are not perfect.  We all miss the mark at times.  But I guess the main point here is that it's not like it was before one is a Christian.  You don't want to live a lifestyle of sin anymore, if you love God, you want to do His will, and you eventually realize that His will is always what is truly best for us! 

If you're not a Christian, I don't expect you to understand all of this, but I just wanted to make it clear to you- or anyone else who has that misunderstanding- that it is just that -  a huge misunderstanding of Christianity and salvation.

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## Miss Annie

> Just lol... 
> 
> Most religions teach to not murder, steal, lust, etc, etc as they are deemed "sinful" or "against the religion." However, in Christianity you may sin as much as you want, yet are saved as long as you truly believe that your sins were compensated through the supposed sacrifice of Christ. The common phrase is: "Jesus died for my sins."


No, you may not sin as much as you want and "get away with it".  When a person comes to faith in Christ, they become adopted as God's child.  God disciplines His children.  We reap what we sow.  I have experienced this myself first hand.  I do NOT want to assume that there are no consequences to my actions.  You piss off a Heavenly Father, you will get yourself and earthly spanking!  
You will just not become disowned.  
It's funny how people in the liberty movement have such a difficult time with this concept.  When I first came to learn who Ron Paul was and what he stood for, I was your typical "Evangelical Republican".  It took me some learning to understand that "legislating morality" was not a good or fruitful thing.  
What dawned on me about that concept is the similarity between that concept and how God deals with us, his children.  We are no longer under the law of sin and death, but the law of liberty in Christ.  It is up to an individual on whether or not they are going to "abuse' that liberty.  If they choose to abuse their liberty in Christ, God is not mocked, they will receive swift and sharp discipline in whatever form is going to get through to their thick ungrateful skulls.  
Speaking of grateful.  That is where most Christians find their desire to do the right thing in the sight of God.  It is from gratitude.  It is from being grateful for the liberty that they have been graced with and the desire not to trash the God that has given them that liberty.  It is called love and relationship.  
If we are so immature that we need threats of hellfire and brimstone to simply tow the line, we are not ready for big boy / girl panties.  



> Need not worry all believing, faithful Christians. Although our teachings may advise against sinning, it doesn't really matter because you're saved anyway! Go steal, plunder, conquer, and murder in this life, and live in heaven for eternity after death!


Are you for legalizing or decriminalizing drugs?  Killing the war on drugs? If you are, and that demise of the war on drugs comes to fruition, is that going to be your advice to people?  Go and smoke all the meth, shoot all the heroin, and smoke all the crack you can get your hands on just because its legal now?  Just because something is legal does not mean it is right.  




> Obviously no one is "restricting freedom or liberty." One imposes those restrictions on themselves willfully. The only real incentive to doing good deeds and keeping away from sin is if there is hell/heaven depending on your actions.


I don't need the threat of hell to motivate me to do good deeds.  I get joy from helping others.  I get love in return from loving others.  I get blessed from blessing others.  
Like I said above, if only the fear of hell can keep someone from murdering - they are not ready to come out of diapers yet.

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## lilymc

> No, you may not sin as much as you want and "get away with it".  When a person comes to faith in Christ, they become adopted as God's child.  God disciplines His children.  We reap what we sow.  I have experienced this myself first hand.  I do NOT want to assume that there are no consequences to my actions.  You piss off a Heavenly Father, you will get yourself and earthly spanking!  
> You will just not become disowned.  
> It's funny how people in the liberty movement have such a difficult time with this concept.  When I first came to learn who Ron Paul was and what he stood for, I was your typical "Evangelical Republican".  It took me some learning to understand that "legislating morality" was not a good or fruitful thing.  
> What dawned on me about that concept is the similarity between that concept and how God deals with us, his children.  We are no longer under the law of sin and death, but the law of liberty in Christ.  It is up to an individual on whether or not they are going to "abuse' that liberty.  If they choose to abuse their liberty in Christ, God is not mocked, they will receive swift and sharp discipline in whatever form is going to get through to their thick ungrateful skulls.  
> Speaking of grateful.  That is where most Christians find their desire to do the right thing in the sight of God.  It is from gratitude.  It is from being grateful for the liberty that they have been graced with and the desire not to trash the God that has given them that liberty.  It is called love and relationship.  
> If we are so immature that we need threats of hellfire and brimstone to simply tow the line, we are not ready for big boy / girl panties.  
> 
> Are you for legalizing or decriminalizing drugs?  Killing the war on drugs? If you are, and that demise of the war on drugs comes to fruition, is that going to be your advice to people?  Go and smoke all the meth, shoot all the heroin, and smoke all the crack you can get your hands on just because its legal now?  Just because something is legal does not mean it is right.  
> 
> ...


Excellent post, Annie!! 

You have restored my faith in humanity.   

Btw, sorry for butting in here and answering his post to you.   I'm just tired of that misunderstanding.

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## Influenza

Ahh I see, when someone becomes a Christian they undergo a sort of spiritual awakening. Is it unlikely that most Christian, war-waging heads of state were saved and simply are committing sin, or were they never truly saved to begin with? 

The threat of hellfire for sin is NOT an issue of whether the person is mature or not. It's not about trying to scare people into doing good deeds and avoiding sin. It's about justice and injustice. Murderers, rapists, and other doers of "major sin" often go unpunished in this world. There are plenty of examples throughout history of heads of state, whether they be monarchs, prime ministers, presidents, oligarchs, that exploited their people and the people of other countries, waged war, etc, for personal gain. They were never punished in this world. Plenty of them are still being praised and commemorated. Why pretend that these kind of people weren't ever really saved, if they profess their Christian faith, only on the basis that "A real Christian wouldn't do that?"

Hell is not to scare you into doing good. It's the proper retribution; God's exacting of justice upon those deserving of it. However, God is merciful, and surely many sinners will be spared of hellfire. However, the sins of some will probably be too heinous for God to forgive... and those people will populate hell. 

This is a religion that guarantees heaven for its followers based on a SINGLE belief, and guarantees hellfire for all non-believers just because they don't believe (or maybe never even heard about?) that a man they never met, who was also God by the way, died on a cross for the sins of all those faithful to his story.

Any non-Christian, no matter how much good he or she may do, no matter how many hungry people he or she may feed, no matter how much poverty he or she will alleviate, no matter how little sin he or she committed, will go straight to hell because of this lack of belief in Jesus. What kind of justice is this? There is no just God in Christianity.

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## Terry1

What you OSAS people are in actuality arguing is that you don't feel you have to walk in the Spirit of the Lord to be once saved always saved.  While some of us are saying--without walking in the spirit of the Lord continually--you can't be saved.  Then you turn this into an issue of "salvation by works"--when you can't even understand the difference between "the works of the law" vs "good works of faith".  Some of you have even gone as far to say that there's only "one law" and that all works are bad--even those done in faith.

You OSAS people are constantly twisting scripture to support your belief as if this is some sort of contest to see who can prove themselves to be more right than wrong.  When the most serious offense of all here is choosing to remain in darkness through pride while corrupting the word of God at the same time.

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## Crashland

Romans 6 is very explicit that Christians should not consider their salvation to be a license to sin. It's clear though why Paul would need to try to make that point. When someone believes that they have already been irrevocably absolved of the eternal consequence of all their sin, past, present, and future, then how could they not be tempted to think that way? A bit of damage control going on to try and prevent OSAS from undermining itself

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## Terry1

> Romans 6 is very explicit that Christians should not consider their salvation to be a license to sin. It's clear though why Paul would need to try to make that point. When someone believes that they have already been irrevocably absolved of the eternal consequence of all their sin, past, present, and future, then how could they not be tempted to think that way? A bit of damage control going on to try and prevent OSAS from undermining itself


I think that horse already left the barn.

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## Kevin007

> Romans 6 is very explicit that Christians should not consider their salvation to be a license to sin. It's clear though why Paul would need to try to make that point. *When someone believes that they have already been irrevocably absolved of the eternal consequence of all their sin, past, present, and future*, then how could they not be tempted to think that way? A bit of damage control going on to try and prevent OSAS from undermining itself


not true, it doesn't effect our salvation with God. That is set in stone. Believer's all get a passing grade, but that grade is still graded.

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## Crashland

> not true, it doesn't effect our salvation with God. That is set in stone. Believer's all get a passing grade, but that grade is still graded.


Graded how? The size of the chest of your treasures in heaven?

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## Kevin007

> What you OSAS people are in actuality arguing is that you don't feel you have to walk in the Spirit of the Lord to be once saved always saved.  While some of us are saying--*without walking in the spirit of the Lord continually--you can't be saved.*  Then you turn this into an issue of "salvation by works"--when you can't even understand the difference between "the works of the law" vs "good works of faith".  Some of you have even gone as far to say that there's only "one law" and that all works are bad--even those done in faith.
> 
> You OSAS people are constantly twisting scripture to support your belief as if this is some sort of contest to see who can prove themselves to be more right than wrong.  When the most serious offense of all here is choosing to remain in darkness through pride while corrupting the word of God at the same time.


ahhh the vague responses we have come to expect. How many sins till I lose my salvation, Terry? One sin separates us from God. ONE.  What is walking in the spirit "continually" mean? How about you admit you have no clue of your own salvation and stop judging others who are sure of their's? I could ask you a hundred questions and you could not answer one of them from Scripture because Scripture doesn't agree with your version of salvation. I'll leave you with this. If Jesus died for all our sins- those who accept Him as Savior, and we must continually walk in the Spirit, but we do not- does Jesus have to go to the Cross each time we sin or don't repent? If not- why not?

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## Terry1

> ahhh the vague responses we have come to expect. How many sins till I lose my salvation, Terry? One sin separates us from God. ONE.  What is walking in the spirit "continually" mean? How about you admit you have no clue of your own salvation and stop judging others who are sure of their's? I could ask you a hundred questions and you could not answer one of them from Scripture because Scripture doesn't agree with your version of salvation. I'll leave you with this. If Jesus died for all our sins- those who accept Him as Savior, and we must continually walk in the Spirit, but we do not- does Jesus have to go to the Cross each time we sin or don't repent? If not- why not?


What you just wrote is wrong on so many levels--and I simply don't have the time to reply to it right now because it's way past my bedtime.  Maybe I'll reply to it tomorrow and maybe I won't, because at this point I'm beginning to believe that too much of my time is being wasted replying to you at all.

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## Kevin007

> What you just wrote is wrong on so many levels--and I simply don't have the time to reply to it right now because it's way past my bedtime.  Maybe I'll reply to it tomorrow and maybe I won't, because at this point I'm beginning to believe that too much of my time is being wasted replying to you at all.


mutual.

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## Crashland

> I think that horse already left the barn.


Yet ironically, if I had to choose one, I would pick OSAS / FAWNS ("Fallen Away Were Never Saved"). It's compatible with predestination and the illusion of choice which I see as a necessary consequence of an omnipotent God.

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## lilymc

> What you OSAS people are in actuality arguing is that you don't feel you have to walk in the Spirit of the Lord to be once saved always saved.


How you managed to get that out of our posts is beyond me.   

Talk about not hearing, not grasping what is being said!   SMH




> While some of us are saying--without walking in the spirit of the Lord continually--you can't be saved.


Terry, once again, you're putting the cart before the horse.  When it comes to the very first step, getting saved... justified... what has to happen?   I know that you know this.   Jesus made it super clear.

In John 3, in reference to the new birth, did Jesus use your favorite phrase, "walking in the spirit of the Lord continually"?

No, let's take a look at what He did say.  Remember this is what has to happen FIRST.   

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So before we are "walkin the spirit of the Lord continually"  we have to have that first coming to Christ, receiving the gift of salvation and having that true change of mind and heart.

I think I've stated  at least 50 times to you, that first we must be born again, and I have not seen you respond to that yet, not even once.

Once we have passed from death to life, the scriptures are clear that He will never stop loving us, never abandon us.  Can we leave Him?   We've been through this before, so many times I've lost count.

A person who is regenerated  and has the Holy Spirit and has new life in Christ does not want the world anymore.    And even when we do stray, God always brings us back!  Romans 8 clearly states that NOTHING can separate us from God's love.  You seem hell bent on disbelieving that, and arguing that.  Why?   And that is only one scripture out of TONS.    The whole bible supports that once we're saved, we're saved.

You just have a particularly vehement hatred for that, for some bizarre reason.

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## lilymc

> Ahh I see, when someone becomes a Christian they undergo a sort of spiritual awakening. Is it unlikely that most Christian, war-waging heads of state were saved and simply are committing sin, or were they never truly saved to begin with?


Almost all politicians claim to be Christian.    They say all sorts of things, to get people's support.  In my opinion, most of them are corrupt liars.  Ron Paul is the only one who I think is honest... and who seems to genuinely care about Christian principles.

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## jmdrake

> Yet ironically, if I had to choose one, I would pick OSAS / FAWNS ("Fallen Away Were Never Saved"). It's compatible with predestination and the illusion of choice which I see as a necessary consequence of an omnipotent God.


Not really.  OSAS rejects the "illusion of choice" idea and instead insists that you really have choice but only one time.  Also why can't an omnipotent God allow for real choice as opposed to just an illusion of choice?  If we go with multiverse theory then real choice and an omnipotent God are not mutually exclusive.

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## pcosmar

> Ron Paul is the only one who I think is honest... and who seems to genuinely care about Christian principles.


He was the only one I met and supported. His honesty was rare.

He may not be the only one,, but there are certainly few,,, ever.

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## moostraks

> You really want to hear it? Okay.
> 
> My turning away was a slow and painful process over the course of about 4 years as I attempted to hold onto my faith while experiencing ever-increasing doubt. It originally started when I had a very strong faith and developed an interest in Christian apologetics to strengthen my faith and to help me reach out better to non-believers. However between studying Christian apologetics and studying the Bible, I saw more and more flaws in what I had originally believed. Long story short, after spending those 4 years trying more and more desperately to cling to my beliefs, there came a point where I realized that if I was going to be honest with myself, I had to admit to myself that I just didn't believe anymore. There was one night in particular where I pleaded one last time to God to help me with my unbelief (Mark 9:24).  Anyway, after that I remember thinking to myself "Is that it?" "Am I really not a Christian anymore?". It took a while for me to come to grips with this, but over time I have come to accept it.
> 
> So, in summary, yes, I did at one time believe with all my heart that I had the Holy Spirit living in me. I don't believe that now, and obviously I don't believe that I ever did. But that doesn't negate the fact that at the time, I was absolutely convinced that I did. What jm is trying to say to you is, how do you know that you aren't one of those people who are currently convinced that you have the Holy Spirit living in you, only to eventually come out of that belief? How do you know that you aren't convinced like I was convinced 10 years ago?


*~hugs~* I can soo relate to what you have experienced. I think the self deception angle is what you are left with when you experience a dark night of the soul and you have certain beliefs foisted upon you with which you have neither the experience or knowledge to discard. For me I dropped being a "Christian" and explored Paganism. This was never a perfect fit for me because I have always comprehended the Spirit through a framework of Jesus. It did give me the ability to drop some ideas that I view as overly simplistic and convoluted explanations that were foisted upon me as the only explanation for my questions. 

There was a period there where I thought I was completely alone. It was dark, my life was a mess, my spirit was broken. The church was a nightmare in their response. Their philosophy was great for getting money into the church but useless for crisis. I had to stop and really listen to the still, small voice. The Creator isn't something outside but deep within you, me, all of creation. You just have to tune the dial and for some of us the static, life, things, make so much noise that we cannot seem to quite dial in without a bit more trouble.

Of course, I'm one of those folks that gets shamed regularly by other self professed "believers" because I disagree with their particular sticking point. Many have wrung their hands because they think I have to speak in their manner of perception therefore I must be deluded because they are never wrong (because they identify faith as a matter of comprehension). But that is their problem and not mine and that is still something I have to tell myself because the human ego is a petty creature. 

I think you know those who _get_ it when you meet them. They are loving, generous, kind to a fault. It isn't what is in your head but what is in your heart. People who step all over others while proclaiming they know the answers are the ones who have caused the most misery for others. They make an idol of their own pet issues. May you find peace on your path~~~

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## libertyjam



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## Deborah K

> Of course, I'm one of those folks that gets shamed regularly by other self professed "believers" because I disagree with their particular sticking point. Many have wrung their hands because they think I have to speak in their manner of perception therefore I must be deluded because they are never wrong (because they identify faith as a matter of comprehension). But that is their problem and not mine and that is still something I have to tell myself because the human ego is a petty creature. 
> 
> I think you know those who _get_ it when you meet them. They are loving, generous, kind to a fault. It isn't what is in your head but what is in your heart. People who step all over others while proclaiming they know the answers are the ones who have caused the most misery for others. They make an idol of their own pet issues. May you find peace on your path~~~


I feel the same way.  There seems to be a serious lack of humility.

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## Deborah K

> You really want to hear it? Okay.
> 
> My turning away was a slow and painful process over the course of about 4 years as I attempted to hold onto my faith while experiencing ever-increasing doubt. It originally started when I had a very strong faith and developed an interest in Christian apologetics to strengthen my faith and to help me reach out better to non-believers. However between studying Christian apologetics and studying the Bible, I saw more and more flaws in what I had originally believed. Long story short, after spending those 4 years trying more and more desperately to cling to my beliefs, there came a point where I realized that if I was going to be honest with myself, I had to admit to myself that I just didn't believe anymore. There was one night in particular where I pleaded one last time to God to help me with my unbelief (Mark 9:24).  Anyway, after that I remember thinking to myself "Is that it?" "Am I really not a Christian anymore?". It took a while for me to come to grips with this, but over time I have come to accept it.
> 
> So, in summary, yes, I did at one time believe with all my heart that I had the Holy Spirit living in me. I don't believe that now, and obviously I don't believe that I ever did. But that doesn't negate the fact that at the time, I was absolutely convinced that I did. What jm is trying to say to you is, how do you know that you aren't one of those people who are currently convinced that you have the Holy Spirit living in you, only to eventually come out of that belief? How do you know that you aren't convinced like I was convinced 10 years ago?


Others have done far more justice in responding to you than I will, but I have to say that sometimes God hides his face from us.  Job talks about it.  And the Lord says this in Isaiah:  




> "For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. In a little wrath I hid My face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer." Isaiah 54:7, 8

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## Terry1

> How you managed to get that out of our posts is beyond me.   
> 
> Talk about not hearing, not grasping what is being said!   SMH
> 
> 
> 
> Terry, once again, you're putting the cart before the horse.  When it comes to the very first step, getting saved... justified... what has to happen?   I know that you know this.   Jesus made it super clear.
> 
> In John 3, in reference to the new birth, did Jesus use your favorite phrase, "walking in the spirit of the Lord continually"?
> ...


OSAS can not be true based upon John 15: 5, Hebrews 6:4, 1 Corinthians 9:27 and 2 Timothy 2:10.

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## Crashland

> Not really.  OSAS rejects the "illusion of choice" idea and instead insists that you really have choice but only one time.  Also why can't an omnipotent God allow for real choice as opposed to just an illusion of choice?  If we go with multiverse theory then real choice and an omnipotent God are not mutually exclusive.


Idk, with predestination though, the element of time is no longer a factor. The "one time" isn't during your lifetime, it's when God created. If you end up not being saved, then it's irrelevant how many times you might have "fallen away" or how many times you came back to the faith, because your ultimate fate was already known/determined before you were born, and that's the only one that actually matters. Maybe that's not what people usually mean by OSAS though. And I'm not too well versed in the multiverse :-P

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## jmdrake

> Idk, with predestination though, the element of time is no longer a factor. The "one time" isn't during your lifetime, it's when God created. If you end up not being saved, then it's irrelevant how many times you might have "fallen away" or how many times you came back to the faith, because your ultimate fate was already known/determined before you were born, and that's the only one that actually matters. Maybe that's not what people usually mean by OSAS though. And I'm not too well versed in the multiverse :-P


With once saved always saved you, the human, make the choice at some point in your life.  It's not predetermined at creation.  As for the multiverse, I posted a thread on my theory about that at God.  Feel free to jump in!  Nobody really understands it and that's what's fun about it.  We can kinda make stuff up as we go along and nobody can say we're really "wrong".  On top of that there is (currently) no religious dogma about the multiverse.  That makes for all sorts of exciting thought experiments without fear of blasphemy!

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## Kevin007

> When the day comes and any one of us who now walk in the spirit of the Lord take our last breath--we will know then whether we've kept the faith or not, but not until then.  Until then *Gods word tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling* and for a really good reason too.  It's because while in the state of flesh and bone--we are always targets for the principalities of darkness.  They're waiting for us to step out of that light and back into darkness and this is why we're warned over and over again to "remain" and "continually walk in the spirit of the Lord".  It's the only thing that keeps us from falling in this life.  
> 
> This is also why we should be careful as to what we fill our eyes, ears, hands, heart, mind and mouth with every day in a world that serves darkness and evil.  This is why the Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9:27--
> 
> *27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.  
> *
> 
> Paul knew how just how weak our flesh is and that it wars with the spirit of the Lord in us every day.  Temptation surrounds us--but He that is in us is stronger than he that is in this world.  That is your refuge and promise.  You'll never be tested beyond what God knows you're able to overcome.  Hence Revelation 3:5 King James Version (KJV)
> 
> *5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.*





this isn't speaking about losing your salvation. Paul isn't teaching  salvation can be earned by good works. This verse means we should live  out our faith with practical holiness and be sanctified.

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## Kevin007

> What you OSAS people are in actuality arguing is that you don't feel you have to walk in the Spirit of the Lord to be once saved always saved.  While some of us are saying--without walking in the spirit of the Lord continually--you can't be saved.  Then you turn this into an issue of "salvation by works"--when you can't even understand the difference between "the works of the law" vs *"good works of faith"*.  Some of you have even gone as far to say that there's only "one law" and that all works are bad--even those done in faith.
> 
> 
> You OSAS people are constantly twisting scripture to support your belief as if this is some sort of contest to see who can prove themselves to be more right than wrong.  When the most serious offense of all here is choosing to remain in darkness through pride while corrupting the word of God at the same time.




you can't be saved by good works of faith either. Good works, period cannot save you or keep you saved. You can't mix works with grace and still have grace.


Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

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## lilymc

> And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
> 
> Romans 11:6


I think some people should print out that scripture in LARGE letters and tape it to their wall or refrigerator, somewhere where it can't be missed.   

(the entire RCC needs to do that.)

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## Terry1

> this isn't speaking about losing your salvation. Paul isn't teaching  salvation can be earned by good works. This verse means we should live  out our faith with practical holiness and be sanctified.


_Is_-that what it's saying Kevin?  He's referring to his crown and his own body-- fearing that it might be "castaway" after preaching to everyone else.  You have totally and completely corrupted that scripture to support you own lie and deception.  If it weren't so sad that you can not see the truth in scripture, I might grin at your ignorance.  

Even God winks at our ignorance as babes on the milk of the word, but at some point having been rebuked and taught by the meat eaters --the spirit within you--if you're listening to it will intercede allowing you to see truth.  What do you think God meant when he said--"when I was a child I spoke and did as a child, but when I became a man--put away with childish things.  You are supposed to learn and grow in faith and become the man able to rightly discern and divide the word of God.  Unfortunately--some will remain babes on the milk forever.

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## Terry1

> I think some people should print out that scripture in LARGE letters and tape it to their wall or refrigerator, somewhere where it can't be missed.   
> 
> (the entire RCC needs to do that.)


And you as well Lily.  Those scriptures you posted are talking about the dead works of the old Mosaic law---not "works of faith" that Paul and James talk about being our "good works".  And that our faith is dead without those good works--a true believer can only realize that we are expected to be and do those good works in order to keep our faith alive in Christ and answer our calling in Christ.  This is common biblical sense to any one who's been enlightened by the Holy Spirit of the Lord and walks therein.

What I just said to Kevin applies to you as well.

*Acts 13: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.*

*Romans 10:  4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:*

*1 Thessalonians 1:

3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2 Thessalonians 1:11

Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
*

*James 2:17

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.*


Grace and faith along with our good works are not mutually exclusive-  None of them "alone save us".  One without the other means that faith is dead, works are dead and grace of no effect--and this is how believers fall from grace and faith--because there's no evidence in their lives that support their belief.  That evidence is what saves us and how we walk in the spirit of the Lord.

You and Kevin are leading each other off that cliff of lies and deception while pointing the finger at other brethren at the same time.  How foolish and unwise of the both of you.  This is what babes on the milk do though--they're destructive to the body of Christ until they're mature meat eaters and only if they ever become mature at all.  Some willingly choose to remain in ignorance to their own shame and demise--said the Lord. Hebrews 6:4

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## Terry1

Two Laws/Covenants--two different kinds of works under both of those laws.  


*Law of Moses--Old Testament dead works.*

Acts 13:39

And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



*Law of faith--New Testament: Good works/works of faith*

Romans 3:27

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?


The only way that we can be justified by faith is through our good works because faith alone absent those good works is dead.  I don't know if you will ever understand the difference.  Only God can open blind eyes.

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## Deborah K

Terry, I really have to wonder if Calvinists read the Old Testament.  It is disconcerting to me that the Bible isn't read through and through, and taken to heart in its entirety.  Piece mealing it, and hyper-focusing on particular sections, I think, is what causes all the mis and dis information.

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## Terry1

> Terry, I really have to wonder if Calvinists read the Old Testament.  It is disconcerting to me that the Bible isn't read through and through, and taken to heart in its entirety.  Piece mealing it, and hyper-focusing on particular sections, I think, is what causes all the mis and dis information.


I agree with you.  I actually don't believe it's because they're not saved or that they don't have the spirit of the Lord, I believe that they're are what I'd call *lazy Christians* who rather listen to others than to search out the scriptures in prayer and study.

The importance here is not that they're ignorant of the fullness of the scriptures, but rather what's glaringly clear is that they're not open minded enough to want to know.  

All of my life I have prayed that God would keep my mind open to the truth so that when it was presented I would see it.  I can't count the times that I've been wrong--but thank God for allowing me to see it in myself.  And not that God has finished the work in me that I should brag either, but I'm constantly seeing things I've never seen before and growing.  

What disturbs me the most in seeing Christians that are missing the mark by their own stubbornness to set pride aside to see clearly enough where they err.  This can lead to total blindness if they're not careful to correct themselves and change their minds.  

OSAS is a dangerous belief in a sense that mankind has this inherent tendency to be complacent when they believe they have already been glorified and obtained their eternal security in this life.  God's word warns us about this very thing.

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## donnay

> The truth is, I don't know if I am saved.  I hope that I am, and I believe that I am.....but I don't know for sure.


God is the judge and he has the final say.

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## lilymc

> Two Laws/Covenants--two different kinds of works under both of those laws.  
> 
> 
> *Law of Moses--Old Testament dead works.*
> 
> Acts 13:39
> 
> And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
> 
> ...


Terry, I don't want to you offend you, but I have to be honest, you believe in a different Gospel.    You have changed the Gospel into something different, and I don't know if you got that from your church or if it's something you came up with on your own, but whether you realize it or not, you are CHOOSING to relinquish grace.  You've done that by insisting that salvation and the New Covenant is about works.

I could post numerous scripture that state just  that -  that you can't mix law with grace, either choose God's grace, or choose your own efforts.  If you choose works, good luck with that.   The whole point of the Gospel is that we can't do it on our own, that is why we all need the Savior!

Here is one scripture that comes to mind:  

Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.  And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised  that he is  debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, *you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.*

Galatians 5:3-4 
Now, I understand what you're saying, you've shared your idea about the Covenants numerous times.  So you don't have to keep explaining that, because I know that's what you believe.   But you are coming up with a different teaching on the Covenants, and one that may sound good on the surface, but it's really just another works-based teaching that goes directly against the whole point of the Gospel...  All you've done is tacked on the words "works of faith"  to make it sound like it's about faith, but that is wrong.  It's not about faith, it's a works-based religion, and you're making salvation not about what Jesus did (giving HIM all the glory) but making it about you, your performance, and your works in order to "maintain" your salvation. 

That phrase -  "law of faith"  that you are using to support your position, is only found ONCE (as far as I've seen) in the entire bible  - Romans 3:27.    Don't you think that if your overall view and your interpretation of that verse was correct, that the words "law of faith" would be in the bible more than once?  

Churches can be wrong, you know. You would agree with that, right?    

Look at the very next verse.  If your view of the Gospel hinges on the phrase "law of faith" in Romans 3:27, what do you have to say about the very next verse, verse 28?

 Therefore we conclude that a man is* justified by faith without the deeds of the law.*

Romans 3:28
In the following verses, it goes on to answer the question, are we making the law void?   No, the law is established, because the law and the purpose of the law has been fulfilled.  The law was meant to point us to our need for the Savior.  When we come to Jesus, realizing that we CAN'T do it through our works, that we simply need to put our faith in Him and Him alone (not our works!) then we are justified.  And THAT is what changes us from the inside out, and causes us to LOVE God's moral law, and to WANT to obey it.... but not on the basis of trying to earn our salvation or threats of hell, but because of our love and gratitude to Him.  And because when we are justified by faith, we are born again, we become a new creation.

So, when you keep it about works.... and when you support that works-based view through your wording "acts of faith"  or "law of faith" - while missing the actual point  (that it's not about our works!) you are basically making the same mistake the Pharisees made.

You're still keeping yourself under the law,  regardless of your wording  ("Good works/works of faith")  because you are still believing that your WORKS are what saves you.     So, the wording really doesn't matter if the phrase "law of faith" is misunderstood and used as a rationalization for a works-based Gospel.

You are also using the James scriptures to support your view.  But as was stated on the other thread, the James passage teaches (when understood along with the bible as a whole) that we are justified in 2 ways.  With GOD, we are justified by faith alone.  The bible is clear on that.     But we ARE justified by our works in the sense that MAN cannot see our heart, so we are justified in the eyes of the world, as well as in our own eyes, through our works.

Let me put it this way.  A person can say they have faith.  But nobody is going to believe them, unless they show it through their actions.  So, we are justified in a horizontal sense (in the eyes of others) through our good works.    But God knows our heart.  So with God, He knows long before we do any actions whether or not we are true, genuine, sincere believers.   

Think about this hypothetical scenario.   A nonbeliever  gets in a major car accident, and becomes a paraplegic, not having ANY use of his body whatsoever....he can't walk, he can't do anything, he can't even speak anymore... yet he is still alive and can still think.     Now, while he is laying there doing nothing, he realizes that he is a sinner and that He needs God.  His heart - that used to be hard and unbelieving -  is softened and he humbles himself and  in his mind  he calls out to God.  So, this paraplegic puts all his faith in God, and becomes saved.     If  good works were necessary to get saved, then that man obviously could not get saved, because he didn't do anything except for put his faith in God. Right?    Yet that man was justified, by his faith and faith alone.

So in man's eyes, we are justified by our actions.  But in God's eyes, we are justified by faith alone.     Now, of course - as has been stated tons of times -  the true believer, a person who is truly regenerated and sealed with the Holy Spirit is inevitably going to have good works.  Why?  Because as we've stated many times before, because that person is a new creation, and God is at work in them, transforming them from the inside out.

Since justification is by faith alone and not our own works..... then it can't be "lost" by our works or lack of works.    

I think it's really cool and amazing that the New Covenant (which can be summed up in one word: JESUS)  was prophesied in the Old Testament.  Look at this passage.  I think it beautifully shows that once we are saved, we are saved.  Because once we truly come to God and become His children, God will never let us go... and because He will make sure that WE do not depart from Him.

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Jeremiah 32:40
Notice that it doesn't say, "I will never turn away from them.... until they do one too many sins."   No, that's not what it said. 

And notice that it also doesn't say, "And they will be able to depart from me....when they feel like going back to their old sinful life."   No, that's also not what it says.  Read it again:

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that *I will not turn away* from doing them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that *they shall not depart from me.*

----------


## lilymc

> Terry, I really have to wonder if Calvinists read the Old Testament.  It is disconcerting to me that the Bible isn't read through and through, and taken to heart in its entirety.  Piece mealing it, and hyper-focusing on particular sections, I think, is what causes all the mis and dis information.


I'm not sure who you were wondering about, but for the record, I'm about as anti-Calvinism as one can be.    And I can't speak for others, but I'm pretty sure that Miss Annie and Kevin are not Calvinists.

But I do agree with you that people need to understand the bible as a whole.  The entire Old Testament points to Jesus, and is filled with types and shadows of what is to come.    And I don't know why anyone would WANT to keep themselves under the law (even if they call it "law of faith") when the whole point is that we can't do it.  That is why we need to put our trust fully in Jesus and allow God to transform us from the inside out.   Liberty in Christ and relationship is infinitely better than the old ways - empty religion and trying to measure up through our own efforts.

----------


## Miss Annie

> Terry, I don't want to you offend you, but I have to be honest, you believe in a different Gospel.    You have changed the Gospel into something different, and I don't know if you got that from your church or if it's something you came up with on your own, but whether you realize it or not, you are CHOOSING to relinquish grace.  You've done that by insisting that salvation and the New Covenant is about works.
> 
> I could post numerous scripture that state just  that -  that you can't mix law with grace, either choose God's grace, or choose your own efforts.  If you choose works, good luck with that.   The whole point of the Gospel is that we can't do it on our own, that is why we all need the Savior!
> 
> Here is one scripture that comes to mind:  
> 
> Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.  And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised  that he is  debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, *you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.*
> 
> Galatians 5:3-4 
> ...


Amen Lily!   Jesus did for us what we could not do for ourselves.  If we were unable to be "good enough" to gain our salvation - then we are certainly unable to earn our way to keeping it.  

Now, I saw someone post something about people who believe this doctrine are lazy and don't feel they have to walk in the Spirit.  Well let me just clarify that - people who believe this doctrine walk in the Spirit because we WANT to - not because we are scared into it.  
My peace in this ugly world comes from walking in the Spirit.  My ability to have patience and a loving attitude towards my children comes from walking in the Spirit - actually following any of the Lord's commandments comes from walking in the Spirit.  I WANT to walk in the Spirit because I have learned that when I take my eyes off of my own will and put it on God's will - there is my peace, my joy, my love and comes my tolerance for suffering in this world.  
Walking in the Spirit is my connection to God.  I enjoy more than anything spending my days going through them holding the Lord's hand - so it is quite ugly, judgmental and presumptuous to say that we are trying to find a way out of walking in the Spirit.  I just do it because I want to. 
I will share this though, for those who are interested.  I have been walking with the Lord for over 20 years now.  One year I found myself wondering if it were correct - that I am saved by grace through faith and not of works lest any man should boast?  During that year, I studied the bible and did come to the conclusion that the doctrine I now hold to is correct - but over that year - everything about me changed.  The fruit was horrible.  I had no peace, I was anxious, judgmental, arrogant, and certainly very little love towards others.  
The fruit of the works doctrine produced horrible fruit in me and I have seen it produce the same in others.  
Now that I am CONFIDENT of that doctrine, not only do I have a much better relationship with the Lord and others, .... I find that I sin much less.  Interesting it is that when you are not thinking about "not sinning" sin is not even an issue.  I am concentrated on what I can do to help others and make others lives better....... not save my own skin through good works.

----------


## lilymc

> Amen Lily!   Jesus did for us what we could not do for ourselves.  If we were unable to be "good enough" to gain our salvation - then we are certainly unable to earn our way to keeping it.  
> 
> Now, I saw someone post something about people who believe this doctrine are lazy and don't feel they have to walk in the Spirit.  Well let me just clarify that - people who believe this doctrine walk in the Spirit because we WANT to - not because we are scared into it.  
> My peace in this ugly world comes from walking in the Spirit.  My ability to have patience and a loving attitude towards my children comes from walking in the Spirit - actually following any of the Lord's commandments comes from walking in the Spirit.  I WANT to walk in the Spirit because I have learned that when I take my eyes off of my own will and put it on God's will - there is my peace, my joy, my love and comes my tolerance for suffering in this world.  
> Walking in the Spirit is my connection to God.  I enjoy more than anything spending my days going through them holding the Lord's hand - so it is quite ugly, judgmental and presumptuous to say that we are trying to find a way out of walking in the Spirit.  I just do it because I want to. 
> I will share this though, for those who are interested.  I have been walking with the Lord for over 20 years now.  One year I found myself wondering if it were correct - that I am saved by grace through faith and not of works lest any man should boast?  During that year, I studied the bible and did come to the conclusion that the doctrine I now hold to is correct - but over that year - everything about me changed.  The fruit was horrible.  I had no peace, I was anxious, judgmental, arrogant, and certainly very little love towards others.  
> The fruit of the works doctrine produced horrible fruit in me and I have seen it produce the same in others.  
> Now that I am CONFIDENT of that doctrine, not only do I have a much better relationship with the Lord and others, .... I find that I sin much less.  Interesting it is that when you are not thinking about "not sinning" sin is not even an issue.  I am concentrated on what I can do to help others and make others lives better....... not save my own skin through good works.


That's an awesome testimony that you have about that year, and seeing for yourself that it was not the way. I'm so glad that going through that led you to a better relationship with God and others and to more good fruit.  Amen! 

You know what... I'm really glad that we've been having these discussions/debates in the last few weeks.  It has REALLY helped to clarify my own views and it has led to some revelations for me (which is always an amazing thing!)  And that has deepened and strengthened my relationship with God.  

So I'm thanking God that this whole topic got brought up in the first place, because even though I don't like disagreeing with people (I wish we could all agree and get along)  it has led to good things... more understanding and clarity, which better equips us to share the Gospel with others.

So yay God!

----------


## Deborah K

> I'm not sure who you were wondering about, but for the record, I'm about as anti-Calvinism as one can be.    And I can't speak for others, but I'm pretty sure that Miss Annie and Kevin are not Calvinists.
> 
> But I do agree with you that people need to understand the bible as a whole.  The entire Old Testament points to Jesus, and is filled with types and shadows of what is to come.    And I don't know why anyone would WANT to keep themselves under the law (even if they call it "law of faith") when the whole point is that we can't do it.  That is why we need to put our trust fully in Jesus and allow God to transform us from the inside out.   Liberty in Christ and relationship is infinitely better than the old ways - empty religion and trying to measure up through our own efforts.


My apologies.  I thought the thing that stood out between Calvinism and Arminianism was the OSAS theology.

----------


## RJB

> My apologies.  I thought the thing that stood out between Calvinism and Arminianism was the OSAS theology.


I thought it was just the personality of _some_ Calvinists.

----------


## Deborah K

> I thought it was just the personality of _some_ Calvinists.


Seems no one here IS a Calvinist.  I am confuse.

----------


## lilymc

> My apologies.  I thought the thing that stood out between Calvinism and Arminianism was the OSAS theology.


No worries.     Actually, I only know one Calvinist IRL (and he was just an acquaintance) but pretty much ALL the Christians I know believe salvation is a one-time thing that cannot be lost.    Non-Catholic Christians, I should've said.     So it's not solely a Calvinist view.  As I mentioned in my previous post, these discussions in the last few weeks have helped me to see (in a deeper way, not just in a "head knowledge" way but in a heart knowledge way) that it is biblical and true.  And I believe it is important because it deals with the heart of the Gospel, how we are saved.  

Here is a sermon on this topic, that I think is worth listening to. (It's just audio).

----------


## RJB

> Seems no one here IS a Calvinist.  I am confuse.


I think it varies.  A true Calvinist believe in all 5 points of TULIP.  Disbelief in any of the points make you a non-Calvinist.  A freewill Baptist could believe in OSAS.


 I personally don't believe in a doctrine of OSAS, but I really have faith God will keep me.  I disbelieved for 15 years and can't see myself ever going back.

----------


## lilymc

> Seems no one here IS a Calvinist.  I am confuse.


There's FreedomFanatic... and Sola_Fide, but I think he's banned right now.   I remember early this year there were so many debates on that...and almost every thread turned into a debate on Calvinism vs non-Calvinism.  I'm glad that that phase is over...  for now, anyway.

----------


## Deborah K

> There's FreedomFanatic... and Sola_Fide, but I think he's banned right now.   I remember early this year there were so many debates on that...and almost every thread turned into a debate on Calvinism vs non-Calvinism.  I'm glad that that phase is over...  for now, anyway.


Actually, believe it or not, both of them have stated that they are not Calvinists.

----------


## Miss Annie

> That's an awesome testimony that you have about that year, and seeing for yourself that it was not the way. I'm so glad that going through that led you to a better relationship with God and others and to more good fruit.  Amen! 
> 
> You know what... I'm really glad that we've been having these discussions/debates in the last few weeks.  It has REALLY helped to clarify my own views and it has led to some revelations for me (which is always an amazing thing!)  And that has deepened and strengthened my relationship with God.  
> 
> So I'm thanking God that this whole topic got brought up in the first place, because even though I don't like disagreeing with people (I wish we could all agree and get along)  it has led to good things... more understanding and clarity, which better equips us to share the Gospel with others.
> 
> So yay God!


Thanks Lily!  
Yes, I have found that debate definitely makes you become sure of what YOU believe.  I don't like disagreeing with people either.  Some people can't seem to disagree without making it nasty and that is always unpleasant.  But, ...... that's between them and God.

----------


## Miss Annie

> Actually, believe it or not, both of them have stated that they are not Calvinists.


Maybe we don't have any then, cuz I sure am not one! LOL

----------


## Terry1

> I'm not sure who you were wondering about, but for the record, I'm about as anti-Calvinism as one can be.    And I can't speak for others, but I'm pretty sure that Miss Annie and Kevin are not Calvinists.
> 
> But I do agree with you that people need to understand the bible as a whole.  The entire Old Testament points to Jesus, and is filled with types and shadows of what is to come.    *And I don't know why anyone would WANT to keep themselves under the law (even if they call it "law of faith")* when the whole point is that we can't do it.  That is why we need to put our trust fully in Jesus and allow God to transform us from the inside out.   Liberty in Christ and relationship is infinitely better than the old ways - empty religion and trying to measure up through our own efforts.


This is the problem Lily--you don't understand which law is which--which works we are taught to do and not do and which works being talked about that reside under which law.  

In the New Testament--there are two separate laws that are being referred to regarding which works we are to do and not to do.  Why do you think that Paul, James, John and Hebrews along with the entire New Testament are instructing you to do good works and then telling you that "works of the law" are a curse to those who do them?

This is the problem with most OSAS followers.  This is not Christianity because it's not biblical--OSAS is a cult within Christianity infecting the body of Christ's believers with a false sense of security which inevitably gives birth to people like Kevin who have stated that "repentance" is not necessary after repenting once upon confession of belief.  I've already posted his words for you once when you denied that he said it.  

The OSAS doctrine of once saved always saved is indeed part of John Calvin's doctrine of the perseverance of the saints.  OSAS is the lighter version of Calvinism, while some reformed churches teach a far more bizarre and undiluted version of "absolute Predestination" and "TULIP".  Although you and some others deny that you're Calvinists--you are actually subscribing to his doctrine whether you realize that or not.  Many Baptist and Presbyterian churches teach their own versions of the Perseverance of the Saints doctrine and it's very much thriving and alive in many churches today as we see.  

Unfortunately, this reformed cult has spread like a cancer and a pox through the centuries to what it is now--a world wide following under the guise of Christianity using the name of Jesus Christ to cloak the unbiblical nature of this doctrine.

And while I'm sure that even still while many subscribe to this doctrine still confess Jesus and say that they have faith--at the same time they will deny the very essence and nature of faith which is our good works because they don't understand the difference between the two separate covenants that distinguish dead works from good works and why we shouldn't do one and should do the other.  

Another problem here is that believers following this doctrine then are missing the mark while thinking that doing nothing physically in response and obedience to the Holy Spirit and the false belief that faith acts upon itself as in having faith in faith--can and will lead many to fall from faith and they're faith will die as a result of this same belief.

The truth is Lily--that our faith is what we do as a result of being obedient to the Holy Spirit.  These are the good works that Paul and James both tell you that without--you have no faith at all.  OSAS is a very dangerous belief to follow.

There is no such thing as "unconditional election" because our election is indeed conditional upon us being obedient to the Holy Spirit and doing the good works that the word of God tells you that are what faith is made of and choosing to remain in that same state of faith to the end of our lives.

There's no such thing as OSAS in the word of God.  There's no such thing as "faith alone" in the word of God.  There's no such thing as "unconditional election" in the word of God.

----------


## Miss Annie

> This is the problem Lily--you don't understand which law is which--which works we are taught to do and not do and which works being talked about that reside under which law.  
> 
> In the New Testament--there are two separate laws that are being referred to regarding which works we are to do and not to do.  Why do you think that Paul, James, John and Hebrews along with the entire New Testament are instructing you to do good works and then telling you that "works of the law" are a curse to those who do them?
> 
> This is the problem with most OSAS followers.  This is not Christianity because it's not biblical--OSAS is a cult within Christianity infecting the body of Christ's believers with a false sense of security which inevitably gives birth to people like Kevin who have stated that "repentance" is not necessary after repenting once upon confession of belief.  I've already posted his words for you once when you denied that he said it.  
> 
> The OSAS doctrine of once saved always saved is indeed part of John Calvin's doctrine of the perseverance of the saints.  OSAS is the lighter version of Calvinism, while some reformed churches teach a far more bizarre and undiluted version of "absolute Predestination" and "TULIP".  Although you and some others deny that you're Calvinists--you are actually subscribing to his doctrine whether you realize that or not.  Many Baptist and Presbyterian churches teach their own versions of the Perseverance of the Saints doctrine and it's very much thriving and alive in many churches today as we see.  
> 
> Unfortunately, this reformed cult has spread like a cancer and a pox through the centuries to what it is now--a world wide following under the guise of Christianity using the name of Jesus Christ to cloak the unbiblical nature of this doctrine.
> ...


I have figured this out.  You misrepresent people's beliefs so that they start out at a disadvantage in the debate.  Instead of being able to debate the belief itself, they have to begin by refuting your misrepresentations.  Pretty clever I must say.  

Because NONE of us have said that we believe in Unconditional election, and at one time or another..... we have all battled against that particular doctrine.  Now here you go stating that we abide by it.  It's clever, although not all that intellectually honest and quite transparent as well.

----------


## Terry1

> I have figured this out.  You misrepresent people's beliefs so that they start out at a disadvantage in the debate.  Instead of being able to debate the belief itself, they have to begin by refuting your misrepresentations.  Pretty clever I must say.  
> 
> Because NONE of us have said that we believe in Unconditional election, and at one time or another..... we have all battled against that particular doctrine.  Now here you go stating that we abide by it.  It's clever, although not all that intellectually honest and quite transparent as well.


You say I'm the one misrepresenting someone's beliefs here? LOL  Well, I gotta hand it to ya Annie--I've never seen anyone who can wear as many doctrinal hats as you can all at once. Aren't you into Zionism now and defending OSAS at the same time?  Confused a lil?

I suppose you, Lily and Kevin asserting that myself and others are living under the curse of the law of works isn't misrepresenting someone?  I figured you out a while back too. 

Here, just read wiki--I didn't write that so you might just believe them.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints

What's ironic is that Kevin pounds out thread after thread against the EOC and the RCC and I squeeze in one lil ole thread on OSAS and the $#@! hits the fan with you OSAS sayers--  How do ya like them apples eh?  The shoe's on the other foot now.

----------


## Miss Annie

> You say I'm the one misrepresenting someone's beliefs here? LOL  Well, I gotta hand it to ya Annie--I've never seen anyone who can wear as many doctrinal hats as you can all at once. Aren't you into Zionism now and defending OSAS at the same time?  Confused a lil?


Nope, I am not confused at all.  




> I suppose you, Lily and Kevin asserting that myself and others are living under the curse of the law of works isn't misrepresenting someone? I figured you out a while back too.


No.  Misrepresenting you would be calling you a Calvinist too. LOL.  Oh you have definitely made it perfectly clear how you feel about me.  That, however, is between you and God.  




> Here, just read wiki--I didn't write that so you might just believe them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints


You do realize that wikipedia can be edited by anyone right? LOL.  



> What's ironic is that Kevin pounds out thread after thread against the EOC and the RCC and I squeeze in one lil ole thread on OSAS and the $#@! hits the fan with you OSAS sayers-- How do ya like them apples eh? The shoe's on the other foot now.


Jmdrake started this thread not you.  What shoe? What foot?

----------


## Christian Liberty

> I have figured this out.  You misrepresent people's beliefs so that they start out at a disadvantage in the debate.  Instead of being able to debate the belief itself, they have to begin by refuting your misrepresentations.  Pretty clever I must say.  
> 
> Because NONE of us have said that we believe in Unconditional election, and at one time or another..... we have all battled against that particular doctrine.  Now here you go stating that we abide by it.  It's clever, although not all that intellectually honest and quite transparent as well.



Terry is a liar with zero moral character and credibility.  She really needs to be handed over to Satan and ignored.

You're too nice to her.  Nang got it right, and they banned her for it.

----------


## Kevin007

> Two Laws/Covenants--two different kinds of works under both of those laws.  
> 
> 
> *Law of Moses--Old Testament dead works.*
> 
> Acts 13:39
> 
> And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
> 
> ...


then why did Jesus die then? We are justified by Jesus. We cannot help Him justify ourselves- how utterly ignorant. We are justified the moment we pass from death to new life when we accept Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior. This comment from you seals the deal for me. YOU ARE NOT TRUSTING IN JESUS FOR YOUR SALVATION. *Abraham was OT/OC. Jesus hadn't died yet!*

----------


## Kevin007

> Terry is a liar with zero moral character and credibility.  She really needs to be handed over to Satan and ignored.
> 
> You're too nice to her.  Nang got it right, and they banned her for it.


Did you guys see her insults to me in my new thread about how we lose salvation?

----------


## Kevin007

> OSAS can not be true based upon *John 15: 5, Hebrews 6:4, 1 Corinthians 9:27 and 2 Timothy 2:10*.



none of these verses are speaking about NT Believer's. It is you who are not putting these verses in proper context.

----------


## Terry1

> Nope, I am not confused at all.








> No.  Misrepresenting you would be calling you a Calvinist too. LOL.  Oh you have definitely made it perfectly clear how you feel about me.  That, however, is between you and God.


How long have you been supporting the Calvin crowd with your pro reps and how often did you ever agree with a Catholic in here?  And here you are defending people accusing the EOC and Catholics of not being saved and living under the Old Mosaic law of works.  You know exactly what I'm talking about.  You, yourself have posted some pretty bizarre stuff pertaining to prophecy as well and now you're into Zionism as well and OSAS, which pretty much disqualifies you as an authority on anything in my mind.      




> You do realize that wikipedia can be edited by anyone right? LOL.


You believe everything else that's inconsistent with the word of God--why doubt Wiki?




> Jmdrake started this thread not you.  What shoe? What foot?


Oh that's right--these two threads seem to be converging between bitch-slaps.

----------


## Kevin007

> Terry, I really have to wonder if Calvinists read the Old Testament.  It is disconcerting to me that the Bible isn't read through and through, and taken to heart in its entirety.  Piece mealing it, and hyper-focusing on particular sections, I think, is what causes all the mis and dis information.


the OT was a shadow of what was to come. The OT was law and no grace, where the NT is about grace through Jesus.

----------


## Kevin007

> Terry, I don't want to you offend you, but I have to be honest, you believe in a different Gospel.    You have changed the Gospel into something different, and I don't know if you got that from your church or if it's something you came up with on your own, but whether you realize it or not, you are CHOOSING to relinquish grace.  You've done that by insisting that salvation and the New Covenant is about works.
> 
> I could post numerous scripture that state just  that -  that you can't mix law with grace, either choose God's grace, or choose your own efforts.  If you choose works, good luck with that.   The whole point of the Gospel is that we can't do it on our own, that is why we all need the Savior!
> 
> Here is one scripture that comes to mind:  
> Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.  And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised  that he is  debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, *you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.*
> 
> Galatians 5:3-4 
> Now, I understand what you're saying, you've shared your idea about the Covenants numerous times.  So you don't have to keep explaining that, because I know that's what you believe.   But you are coming up with a different teaching on the Covenants, and one that may sound good on the surface, but it's really just another works-based teaching that goes directly against the whole point of the Gospel...  All you've done is tacked on the words "works of faith"  to make it sound like it's about faith, but that is wrong.  It's not about faith, it's a works-based religion, and you're making salvation not about what Jesus did (giving HIM all the glory) but making it about you, your performance, and your works in order to "maintain" your salvation. 
> ...


I see Terry as usual doesn't address these and just goes on personal attacks and misrepresents us.

----------


## Terry1

> Terry is a liar with zero moral character and credibility.  She really needs to be handed over to Satan and ignored.
> 
> You're too nice to her.  Nang got it right, and they banned her for it.


You're the only 19 year old I know who's so wet behind those huge ears that you have to wear bandana's on them.

----------


## Natural Citizen

> none of these verses are speaking about NT Believer's. It is you who are not putting these verses in proper context.


Yeah, see, this is what I was just saying to S_F a ways back.  Of course, he isn't here nowadays and so we never did get to finish that pow wow. Here's the thing, kev. Biblicists are very diverse people. That is to say that even though they are biblical their interpretations are very diverse. So then how does one from within such a diverse group of biblical people define what is a decent and biblical gospel message? You see? You can't. This is why there can never be peace through Religion, kev. There is no synergy among the biblical. Too many chiefs and not enough injuns. Well...I'm probably wrong about that. There are plenty enough injuns except the chiefs are a giant pain in the ass. You know?

----------


## Terry1

> the OT was a shadow of what was to come. The OT was law and no grace, where the NT is about grace through Jesus.


You are learning grazhoppa.  Yes--the OT is a type and shadow of the New Testament of what was then and is now under the Law of Faith.  I can tell you've been doing some studying.  Good for you Kevin.

----------


## Kevin007

> Terry, I don't want to you offend you, but I have to be honest, you believe in a different Gospel.    You have changed the Gospel into something different, and I don't know if you got that from your church or if it's something you came up with on your own, but whether you realize it or not, you are CHOOSING to relinquish grace.  You've done that by insisting that salvation and the New Covenant is about works.
> 
> I could post numerous scripture that state just  that -  that you can't mix law with grace, either choose God's grace, or choose your own efforts.  If you choose works, good luck with that.   The whole point of the Gospel is that we can't do it on our own, that is why we all need the Savior!
> 
> Here is one scripture that comes to mind:  
> Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.  And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised  that he is  debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, *you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.*
> 
> Galatians 5:3-4 
> Now, I understand what you're saying, you've shared your idea about the Covenants numerous times.  So you don't have to keep explaining that, because I know that's what you believe.   But you are coming up with a different teaching on the Covenants, and one that may sound good on the surface, but it's really just another works-based teaching that goes directly against the whole point of the Gospel...  All you've done is tacked on the words "works of faith"  to make it sound like it's about faith, but that is wrong.  It's not about faith, it's a works-based religion, and you're making salvation not about what Jesus did (giving HIM all the glory) but making it about you, your performance, and your works in order to "maintain" your salvation. 
> ...


Lily, great post.

----------


## Kevin007

> You are learning grazhoppa.  Yes--the OT is a type and shadow of the New Testament of what was then and is now under the Law of Faith.  I can tell you've been doing some studying.  Good for you Kevin.


did you read Lily's post?"law of faith" is seen once in the bible. If you kept reading, you'd see that...Therefore we conclude that a man is* justified by faith without the deeds of the law.*

Romans 3:28

----------


## Terry1

> Did you guys see her insults to me in my new thread about how we lose salvation?


Okay, lets see--there's four of you tag teaming me here.  Your kung-fu is weak--come back after you've trained with a master.

----------


## Kevin007

> This is really nice, Lily.  Thank you.  I should probably clarify my meaning.  When I wrote that I believe I am saved but I'm not sure, it's because even though I love the Lord with all my heart and soul, I am a lowly sinner.  And sometimes I sin, knowing it full well, and instead of refraining, I do it anyway.  I ask for forgiveness, and I ask for guidance, and I know he doesn't expect me to be perfect at all times, but I can't reconcile that I sin, knowing that I'm doing it - and do it anyway.  Does it matter that my sins are venial?  I don't think it does.


don't believe in that moral, venial crap. Let's see what this verse says-

Struggling with Sin

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

Romans 7:15

----------


## Kevin007

> Graded how? The size of the chest of your treasures in heaven?


google Bema Seat Judgment.

----------


## Kevin007

> Okay, lets see--there's four of you tag teaming me here.  Your kung-fu is weak--come back after you've trained with a master.


wow. I replied to your condescending post in my thread.

----------


## Kevin007

> You are learning grazhoppa.  Yes--the OT is a type and shadow of the New Testament of what was then and is now under the Law of Faith.  I can tell you've been doing some studying.  Good for you Kevin.


are you drinking tonight? (honest question).

----------


## Kevin007

> Terry, I don't want to you offend you, but I have to be honest, you believe in a different Gospel.    You have changed the Gospel into something different, and I don't know if you got that from your church or if it's something you came up with on your own, but whether you realize it or not, you are CHOOSING to relinquish grace.  You've done that by insisting that salvation and the New Covenant is about works.
> 
> I could post numerous scripture that state just  that -  that you can't mix law with grace, either choose God's grace, or choose your own efforts.  If you choose works, good luck with that.   The whole point of the Gospel is that we can't do it on our own, that is why we all need the Savior!
> 
> Here is one scripture that comes to mind:  
> Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.  And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised  that he is  debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, *you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.*
> 
> Galatians 5:3-4 
> Now, I understand what you're saying, you've shared your idea about the Covenants numerous times.  So you don't have to keep explaining that, because I know that's what you believe.   But you are coming up with a different teaching on the Covenants, and one that may sound good on the surface, but it's really just another works-based teaching that goes directly against the whole point of the Gospel...  All you've done is tacked on the words "works of faith"  to make it sound like it's about faith, but that is wrong.  It's not about faith, it's a works-based religion, and you're making salvation not about what Jesus did (giving HIM all the glory) but making it about you, your performance, and your works in order to "maintain" your salvation. 
> ...


bump for the EO's.

----------


## Terry1

> did you read Lily's post?"law of faith" is seen once in the bible. If you kept reading, you'd see that...Therefore we conclude that a man is* justified by faith without the deeds of the law.*
> 
> Romans 3:28


Kevin in both the Old and New Testament--the words Covenant and Law refer to the same thing.  *Old Covenant="Law of Moses"--*New Covenant="Law of faith".

The laws and works under both of these covenants are opposite one another.  What you OSAS people are doing is confusing one law for the other and one covenant for the other thinking that there's only one law and covenant being referred to when you see the word "works".   The word "works" just seems to hang you people up terribly.

----------


## Kevin007

> Yeah, see, this is what I was just saying to S_F a ways back.  Of course, he isn't here nowadays and so we never did get to finish that pow wow. Here's the thing, kev. Biblicists are very diverse people. That is to say that even though they are biblical their interpretations are very diverse. So then how does one from within such a diverse group of biblical people define what is a decent and biblical gospel message? You see? You can't. This is why there can never be peace through Religion, kev. There is no synergy among the biblical. Too many chiefs and not enough injuns. Well...I'm probably wrong about that. There are plenty enough injuns except the chiefs are a giant pain in the ass. You know?


in a true Believer who isn't led astray by traditions of men and dogma, etc.. we are led by the Holy Spirit in ALL TRUTH.

----------


## Kevin007

> Kevin in both the Old and New Testament--the words Covenant and Law refer to the same thing.  *Old Covenant="Law of Moses"--*New Covenant="Law of faith".
> 
> The laws and works under both of these covenants are opposite one another.  What you OSAS people are doing is confusing one law for the other and one covenant for the other thinking that there's only one law and covenant being referred to when you see the word "works".   The word "works" just seems to hang you people up terribly.


works of faith are still works Terry- works. You cannot add works of faith to a free gift and grace; otherwise grace becomes null and void.

----------


## Terry1

> Lily, great post.


No--it's not a great post.  When


> Lily wrote: Since justification is by faith alone and not our own works..... then it can't be "lost" by our works or lack of works.


You go and find me where it says that "faith alone" does anything but die.  You do that now.

----------


## Kevin007

> Kevin in both the Old and New Testament--the words Covenant and Law refer to the same thing.  *Old Covenant="Law of Moses"--**New Covenant="Law of faith".*
> 
> The laws and works under both of these covenants are opposite one another.  What you OSAS people are doing is confusing one law for the other and one covenant for the other thinking that there's only one law and covenant being referred to when you see the word "works".   The word "works" just seems to hang you people up terribly.


Justified by Faith
…26for  the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so  that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in  Jesus. 27Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.…

----------


## Terry1

> works of faith are still works Terry- works. You cannot add works of faith to a free gift and grace; otherwise grace becomes null and void.


Did you find that quote "faith alone" anywhere yet Kevin--still waiting. zzzzzzzzzzzzz

----------


## Kevin007

> Did you find that quote "faith alone" anywhere yet Kevin--still waiting. zzzzzzzzzzzzz


heres a few....



*Romans 5:1 					 						ESV / 68 helpful votes* 				 					Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.				

*Ephesians 2:8-9 					 						ESV / 54 helpful votes* 				 					For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not  your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no  one may boast.				


*Romans 3:28 					 						ESV / 51 helpful votes* 				 					For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

----------


## Terry1

> Justified by Faith
> …26for  the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so  that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in  Jesus. 27Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.…


Yes--justified by faith, but you're taught in the Gospel that faith alone is dead without works.  You find me again where it says that "faith alone" and by itself does anything but die.

----------


## Terry1

> heres a few....
> 
> 
> 
> *Romans 5:1 					 						ESV / 68 helpful votes* 				 					Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.				
> 
> *Ephesians 2:8-9 					 						ESV / 54 helpful votes* 				 					For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not  your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no  one may boast.				
> 
> 
> *Romans 3:28 					 						ESV / 51 helpful votes* 				 					For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.


"Faith alone" Kevin--find me that quote any where in the Bible, other than where you're told that it dies being absent works of faith or works.

Paul is talking about the Mosaic Law--not the law of faith.

----------


## Kevin007

> No--it's not a great post.  When
> 
> You go and find me where it says that "faith alone" does anything but die.  You do that now.


faith alone in *Jesus for your salvation, not in works- lest any man should boast.*

----------


## Kevin007

> "Faith alone" Kevin--find me that quote any where in the Bible.


now you are playing games Terry. Faith alone in Jesus for your eternal soul. Show me the word trinity in the bible....

----------


## Kevin007

I have come to the conclusion that Terry thinks that her good works/ works of faith (whatever she wants to call it) will save her soul. Terry- why did Jesus die on the cross?

----------


## Terry1

> I have come to the conclusion that Terry thinks that her good works/ works of faith (whatever she wants to call it) will save her soul. Terry- why did Jesus die on the cross?


I know that my works of faith keep me within the will of God and in the state of elect.  There's no question about it in my mind.  You're the one who's confused--sadly so too.

----------


## Natural Citizen

> we are led by the Holy Spirit in ALL TRUTH.


Which is what, exactly? What do you mean by all truth? I interpret it as a verified and indisputable fact. Explain, please.

----------


## Miss Annie

> How long have you been supporting the Calvin crowd with your pro reps and how often did you ever agree with a Catholic in here?


Terry, I don't hate people just because I don't agree with them.  I can be friendly to Calvinists and not be one.  Let's see, I agree with Catholics on the first four points of Arminianism.  How's that for ya.  
It's sad that you think that people have to be segregated into cliques or something based on their beliefs.  This isn't high school anymore.  



> And here you are defending people accusing the EOC and Catholics of not being saved and living under the Old Mosaic law of works.


What's the difference? I defend Catholics when they are debating Limited Atonement and Unconditional Election.  If I got a hate on for everyone I disagreed with, I wouldn't have any friends because I disagree with everyone about something.  




> You know exactly what I'm talking about.


Yea, you are talking about hate and hating people that disagree with you.  Not only is that ugly, but it is not a Christian way to be.  Jesus said we are to love even our enemies and bless those that curse us.  Remember what I said about that fruit thing? 




> You, yourself have posted some pretty bizarre stuff pertaining to prophecy as well and now you're into Zionism as well and OSAS,


Terry, I choose to discuss a wide variety of Biblical concepts.  I am sorry this disturbs you.  Again, it is not necessary to hate on people you disagree with.  



> which pretty much disqualifies you as an authority on anything in my mind.


I don't blame you.  There are only a couple of people I would consider authorities on biblical issues.  



> You believe everything else that's inconsistent with the word of God--why doubt Wiki?


Sorry, not a direct hit - good try though. 




> Oh that's right--these two threads seem to be converging between bitch-slaps.


That fruit ........

----------


## Terry1

> now you are playing games Terry. Faith alone in Jesus for your eternal soul. Show me the word trinity in the bible....


Now I'm playing games with your mind because you can't find it can you Kevin.  It's because it doesn't exist.  You *assumed* that "justified by faith" meant alone, but it doesn't say that does it.  What the bible does say is that faith alone is dead without works--speaking of "good works" "works of faith" that Paul teaches you in 1st and 2nd Thes.  "Works of the law" that Paul talks about is the Mosaic law--opposite the Law of faith and good works.

----------


## Terry1

> Terry, I don't hate people just because I don't agree with them.  I can be friendly to Calvinists and not be one.  Let's see, I agree with Catholics on the first four points of Arminianism.  How's that for ya.  
> It's sad that you think that people have to be segregated into cliques or something based on their beliefs.  This isn't high school anymore.  
> 
> What's the difference? I defend Catholics when they are debating Limited Atonement and Unconditional Election.  If I got a hate on for everyone I disagreed with, I wouldn't have any friends because I disagree with everyone about something.  
> 
> 
> Yea, you are talking about hate and hating people that disagree with you.  Not only is that ugly, but it is not a Christian way to be.  Jesus said we are to love even our enemies and bless those that curse us.  Remember what I said about that fruit thing? 
> 
> 
> ...


Spare me the drama Annie.  You like to play the part of some noble well meaning person, but you have shown your true colors far too often to fool me again.

----------


## Kevin007

> *I know that my works of faith keep me within the will of God and in the state of elect*.  There's no question about it in my mind.  You're the one who's confused--sadly so too.


and here we go guys... Terry admits that she can save herself. Terry- even if this was true, falling outside of the will of God doesn't mean you are not saved. I truly feel sorry for you.

----------


## Kevin007

> Now I'm playing games with your mind because you can't find it can you Kevin.  It's because it doesn't exist.  You *assumed* that "justified by faith" meant alone, but it doesn't say that does it.  What the bible does say is that faith alone is dead without works--speaking of "good works" "works of faith" that Paul teaches you in 1st and 2nd Thes.  "Works of the law" that Paul talks about is the Mosaic law--opposite the Law of faith and good works.




Are your "works of faith" the same as your "good works"? If not- what is the difference? Are you under law or grace?

Terry- why did Jesus die on the cross?

----------


## Terry1

> and here we go guys... Terry admits that she can save herself. Terry- even if this was true, falling outside of the will of God doesn't mean you are not saved. I truly feel sorry for you.


You're denying the very essence of faith which are your good works that Paul, James, Hebrews and John all tell that without--you have no faith--it's dead.  What you have is zombie faith-that you think can act upon itself as if it's still alive-as if faith can have faith in itself.

----------


## Kevin007

> You're denying the very essence of faith which are your good works that Paul, James, Hebrews and John all tell that without--you have no faith--it's dead.  What you have is zombie faith-that you think can act upon itself as if it's still alive-as if faith can have faith in itself.


in order to have good works count for anything, you need to be saved first. You have it backwards thinking your works of faith will save you. That isn't what Jesus taught. *Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.*

----------


## Kevin007

why did Jesus die on the cross?

----------


## lilymc

It's becoming more and more clear to me what the problem is here.

People who are vehemently opposed to once saved always saved don't get it because they are trying to understand it apart from the new birth.   (Maybe not all, but I think that is the problem for many, especially the works-based types.)

That to me shows that they don't understand the most important thing of all -  how we get saved.

Jesus said, "You must be born again."   Being born again is essential, and if a person rejects that or maybe hasn't been regenerated, they are going to misunderstand salvation, and be far more likely to reject once saved always saved, because *they are trying to grasp it apart from the new birth.*

Terry, I think the reason why you think it's a "dangerous" doctrine is because you don't get that when we become a new creation, and God transforms us from the inside out, the good works are inevitable.  We WANT to obey God and we begin to hate sin, because we have a new nature, and we have the Holy Spirit living in us.

You keep ignoring that part, over and over and over.    Until you understand justification  -  getting saved -  you will continue to reject once saved always saved, because you can't understand that good works come as a result, or _fruit_ of justification.... not the means of it.

Please listen to this sermon.  You probably won't (I don't even think you read my post) but please take the time to listen to it.  He explains what I just said, and also he goes through all the scriptures that people bring up to support their anti- osas position.

----------


## Terry1

> why did Jesus die on the cross?


To give you what you didn't have under the curse of the old Mosaic law--a choice.  Jesus fulfilled *THAT LAW*--the Mosaic Law and ended the curse.  Now you can choose who you will serve and follow where everyone was cursed before under that Mosaic Law and didn't have a choice.  Jesus ended the curse on that cross.  He didn't finish your life for you--nor has He fought the good fight for you in this life--that is your test of faith--your calling to overcome--your choice to endure to the end of this life or not, but you are not once saved always saved.  There is no eternal security in this life---only the next and only after you've been perfected and glorified--which can not happen in this life--only the next.  So it's time for you to wake up and open those blind eyes--see and realize that you are responsible for what you say and do in this life and to the very end of it that will decide your eternal destiny in the next.

----------


## lilymc

> *in order to have good works count for anything, you need to be saved first.* You have it backwards thinking your works of faith will save you. That isn't what Jesus taught. *Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.*


AMEN!!!   Exactly!     (pretty much what I just posted, except for in different words.)

----------


## Terry1

> Now I'm playing games with your mind because you can't find it can you Kevin.  It's because it doesn't exist.  You *assumed* that "justified by faith" meant alone, but it doesn't say that does it.  What the bible does say is that faith alone is dead without works--speaking of "good works" "works of faith" that Paul teaches you in 1st and 2nd Thes.  "Works of the law" that Paul talks about is the Mosaic law--opposite the Law of faith and good works.


bump

----------


## Terry1

> AMEN!!!   Exactly!     (pretty much what I just posted, except for in different words.)





> Lily wrote: Since justification is by faith alone and not our own works..... then it can't be "lost" by our works or lack of works.


Now the challenge is yours Lily--you added words to the bible that don't exist.  Tell me where you find the quote "faith alone" justifies us.

----------


## lilymc

> bump


Still no comment on the very next verse right after your favorite verse on "law of faith"?      Still no comment on the fact that your phrase - "law of faith" appears only once in the bible, and that you are completely re-writing Paul's point?  (in fact, re-writing the Gospel)

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:28

----------


## lilymc

> Now the challenge is yours Lily--you added words to the bible that don't exist.  Tell me where you find the quote "faith alone" justifies us.


Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:28

----------


## Terry1

> Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
> 
> Romans 3:28


And which law is Paul talking about there Lily?  Can't be the law of faith because Paul and James both tell you that faith is dead without works.  So which "law of works" is Paul talking about?

----------


## Kevin007

> To give you what you didn't have under the curse of the old Mosaic law--a choice.  Jesus fulfilled *THAT LAW*--the Mosaic Law and ended the curse.  Now you can choose who you will serve and follow where everyone was cursed before under that Mosaic Law and didn't have a choice.  Jesus ended the curse on that cross.  He didn't finish your life for you--nor has He fought the good fight for you in this life--that is your test of faith--your calling to overcome--your choice to endure to the end of this life or not, but you are not once saved always saved.  There is no eternal security in this life---only the next and only after you've been perfected and glorified--which can not happen in this life--only the next.  So it's time for you to wake up and open those blind eyes--see and realize that *you are responsible for what you say and do in this life and to the very end of it that will decide your eternal destiny in the next.*


it doesn't affect my salvation Terry- only my rewards and responsibilities in the New Earth. Terry in order to get a passing grade you must accept Jesus as your Savior. All the other things you mentioned do not matter one bit unless you get the horse. The cart won't move itself. All your talk is just basically saying that you do not trust Christ for your salvation. Believe on the LORD JESUS CHRIST AND BE SAVED. It doesn't say be saved in the afterlife or later down the road. It means be saved, period. I understand that there is a next life- but we are already saved, sealed and eventually delivered when we die or are raptured.

You keep making it about you/us. It's about what Jesus die FOR US. NOT what we do for Him. I never once said do not do good works- you are lying about that- I said they do not SAVE YOU. We do them BECAUSE we are saved and grateful to Jesus that HE SAV_ED_ US.

----------


## Terry1

I'll give you a hint Lily--this is the law of deeds/works that Paul is referring to.

Acts 13:39

And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

----------


## Kevin007

> And which law is Paul talking about there Lily?  Can't be the law of faith because Paul and James both tell you that faith is dead without works.  So which "law of works" is Paul talking about?


Romans is NT. We are in the period of grace and not law.

----------


## Terry1

> it doesn't affect my salvation Terry- only my rewards and responsibilities in the New Earth. Terry in order to get a passing grade you must accept Jesus as your Savior. All the other things you mentioned do not matter one bit unless you get the horse. The cart won't move itself. All your talk is just basically saying that you do not trust Christ for your salvation. Believe on the LORD JESUS CHRIST AND BE SAVED. It doesn't say be saved in the afterlife or later down the road. It means be saved, period. I understand that there is a next life- but we are already saved, sealed and eventually delivered when we die or are raptured.
> 
> You keep making it about you/us. It's about what Jesus die FOR US. NOT what we do for Him. I never once said do not do good works- you are lying about that- I said they do not SAVE YOU. We do them BECAUSE we are saved and grateful to Jesus that HE SAV_ED_ US.


And this is the deadly deception of the OSAS doctrine.  Why worry about "rewards" when you believe that you'll still inherit the kingdom of heaven no matter what you say or do.  This is the hook that will lead to eternal destruction of the soul.  Be very careful--salvation is not so easily obtained in this life.  If it was--we would not have been warned to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.  God is not so slack that He will accept anything less than those who have overcome this life and proven to have endured to the very end of it.

----------


## Kevin007

> I'll give you a hint Lily--this is the law of deeds/works that Paul is referring to.
> 
> Acts 13:39
> 
> And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.


read the verses before that one. Verse 38- on the basis of Jesus' finished work, Paul was able to announce remission of sins a present reality to those who put faith in Jesus (and not works or themselves). "THROUGH THIS MAN is preached to you remission of sins". The law of MOSES could never offer that. JUSTIFICATION is an act of GOD by which He declares us righteous through His Son.

----------


## Kevin007

> And this is the deadly deception of the OSAS doctrine.  Why worry about "rewards" when you believe that you'll still inherit the kingdom of heaven no matter what you say or do.  This is the hook that will lead to eternal destruction of the soul.  Be very careful--salvation is not so easily obtained in this life.  *If it was--we would not have been warned to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.*  God is not so slack that He will accept anything less than those who have overcome this life and proven to have endured to the very end of it.


is that why the Bible says Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved? (nothing about fear and trembling there)-

----------


## lilymc

> And which law is Paul talking about there Lily?  Can't be the law of faith because Paul and James both tell you that faith is dead without works.  So which "law of works" is Paul talking about?


I already addressed your James misunderstanding on the previous page.    Did you read that post?   

You still haven't addressed pretty much anything I brought up, including the scenario of the paraplegic.  Was he not saved because he didn't do "works"?  

Paul is talking about trying to be saved through our own efforts.   

This "law of faith" idea that you came up with is missing the entire point of the Gospel.  The law was meant to point us to our need for the Savior! 

You are going right back into the OT law-keeping, and just changing the name to "law of faith."     You are choosing to reject Grace. That is a dangerous place to be!

----------


## Kevin007

> I already addressed your James misunderstanding on the previous page.    Did you read that post?   
> 
> You still haven't addressed pretty much anything I brought up, including the scenario of the paraplegic.  Was he not saved because he didn't do "works"?  
> 
> Paul is talking about trying to be saved through our own efforts.   
> 
> This "law of faith" idea that you came up with is missing the entire point of the Gospel.  The law was meant to point us to our need for the Savior! 
> 
> You are going right back into the OT law-keeping, and just changing the name to "law of faith."     You are choosing to reject Grace. That is a dangerous place to be!


it sure is! Rejecting grace of Jesus is pretty much denying Him as Savior! These are the types of things I think of when He says I never knew you

----------


## Terry1

> is that why the Bible says Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved? (nothing about fear and trembling there)-


Remember--this is your eternal soul we're talking about here.  You can believe as wish--it won't affect my life or faith one bit.  Just remember that I'm the one telling you that God requires us to remain in the spirit and in order to be forgiven you must repent of whatever it is that the Holy Spirit is convicting you of.  You are commanded to answer your calling and overcome the temptations in this life--not give into them thinking it doesn't matter because those are just lost rewards--not salvation.

While you're trying to tell me "pfft---those are just lost rewards--not our salvation".  Do you really want to take that chance by believing your way--or Gods way.  You decide--it's your eternal life--not mine.

----------


## lilymc

> And this is the deadly deception of the OSAS doctrine.  Why worry about "rewards" when you believe that you'll still inherit the kingdom of heaven no matter what you say or do.  This is the hook that will lead to eternal destruction of the soul.  Be very careful--salvation is not so easily obtained in this life.  If it was--we would not have been warned to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.  God is not so slack that He will accept anything less than those who have overcome this life and proven to have endured to the very end of it.


Did you read post *#158*?

You are showing EVEN MORE that you are viewing once saved always saved *apart from the new birth.*

You are clearly showing that you just don't get it.... at all.  You don't get that when we become a new creation, born from above, we no longer have the same nature, we become new, in a way that is hard to put into words, because it's a miracle.

When you say things like,  "It's deadly because you believe you can inherit the kingdom no matter what you do"  you are showing that you simply don't get regeneration and being born again.

I will be praying for you.

----------


## Kevin007

> Remember--this is your eternal soul we're talking about here.  You can believe as wish--it won't affect my life or faith one bit.  Just remember that I'm the one telling you that God requires us to remain in the spirit and in order to be forgiven you must repent of whatever it is that the Holy Spirit is convicting you of.  You are commanded to answer your calling and overcome the temptations in this life--not give into them thinking it doesn't matter because those are just lost rewards--not salvation.
> 
> While you're trying to tell me "pff---those are just lost rewards--not our salvation".  Do you really want to take that chance by believing your way--or Gods way.  You decide--it's your eternal life--not mine.


I believe that if there is one question God asks you at the pearly gates it is why should I let you in? The answer isn't going to be Kevin did this or did that- it will be Because of your Son.

----------


## Kevin007

> Did you read post *#158*?
> 
> You are showing EVEN MORE that you are viewing once saved always saved *apart from the new birth.*
> 
> You are clearly showing that you just don't get it.... at all.  You don't get that when we become a new creation, born from above, we no longer have the same nature, we become new, in a way that is hard to put into words, because it's a miracle.
> 
> When you say things like,  "It's deadly because you believe you can inherit the kingdom no matter what you do"  you are showing that you simply don't get regeneration and being born again.
> 
> I will be praying for you.


me too Lily- I hope its not too late for Terry Her heart seems to be very hardened to the Gospel of GRACE. And after doing more research on the EO Church I can see why she thinks her works and sacraments and fasting will save her... but only Jesus saves. If we could do anything to save ourselves at all, Jesus didn't have to die.

----------


## Terry1

> Did you read post *#158*?
> 
> You are showing EVEN MORE that you are viewing once saved always saved *apart from the new birth.*
> 
> You are clearly showing that you just don't get it.... at all.  You don't get that when we become a new creation, born from above, we no longer have the same nature, we become new, in a way that is hard to put into words, because it's a miracle.
> 
> When you say things like,  "It's deadly because you believe you can inherit the kingdom no matter what you do"  you are showing that you simply don't get regeneration and being born again.
> 
> I will be praying for you.


If you have to add words to the Bible to support your belief Lily as in "justification by faith alone"--that does not exist anywhere in the word of God--then it's not me that "doesn't get it".  The words "faith alone" only appear when you're being told that "faith alone is dead without works".

Yes--we are justified by faith because our faith is our good works that we do to give evidence of our belief.  Now--I actually don't know how blind, thick or stubborn one has to be not to get this biblical fact--but one thing I do know for certain is that it's not me.

----------


## Terry1

> me too Lily- I hope its not too late for Terry Her heart seems to be very hardened to the Gospel of GRACE. And after doing more research on the EO Church I can see why she thinks her works and sacraments and fasting will save her... but only Jesus saves. If we could do anything to save ourselves at all, Jesus didn't have to die.


LOL

----------


## Kevin007



----------


## lilymc

> If we could do anything to save ourselves at all, Jesus didn't have to die.


Exactly.  If salvation is something we earn through our own works then there really was no point in Jesus' death on the cross. 

Jesus becomes a side thing, instead of central.    

The works-based view is very anthropocentric... and it's kind of strange to me that some people WANT salvation to be about works.  Why?





> If you have to add words to the Bible to support your belief Lily as in "justification by faith alone"--that does not exist anywhere in the word of God--then it's not me that "doesn't get it".  The words "faith alone" only appear when you're being told that "faith alone is dead without works".
> 
> Yes--we are justified by faith because our faith is our good works that we do to give evidence of our belief.  Now--I actually don't know how blind, thick or stubborn one has to be not to get this biblical fact--but one thing I do know for certain is that it's not me.



You are playing word games.  You are focusing on semantics while missing the entire point.

----------


## lilymc

> Yes--we are justified by faith because our faith is our good works that we do to give evidence of our belief.  Now--I actually don't know how blind, thick or stubborn one has to be not to get this biblical fact--but one thing I do know for certain is that it's not me.


Still waiting for you to address the points in my previous posts.

Was the paraplegic in my hypothetical scenario who could not move or speak or do anything saved, Terry?   Yes or no?

----------


## Terry1

> I believe that if there is one question God asks you at the pearly gates it is why should I let you in? The answer isn't going to be Kevin did this or did that- it will be Because of your Son.


So you're basically saying that you don't even have to try to be good or do anything good because Jesus did all of that for you.  Well--that's certainly another way of thinking that Jesus's death and resurrection gave you a license to sin all the more with nothing more than maybe a few jewels knocked out of your crown for being an evil boy. lol

Believe as you wish--we are about at the end of this discussion I do believe.  Good night.

----------


## lilymc

> So you're basically saying that you don't even have to try to be good or do anything good because Jesus did all of that for you.  Well--that's certainly another way of thinking that Jesus's death and resurrection gave you a license to sin all the more with nothing more than maybe a few jewels knocked out of your crown for being an evil boy. lol


Wow. Still haven't read post #158, I see.  This has been addressed about a thousand times.

 Good night.

----------


## Deborah K

> the OT was a shadow of what was to come. The OT was law and no grace, where the NT is about grace through Jesus.


I know that.  But, what does it have to do with the fact that so many Christians hyper-focus on NT verses to the exclusion of the rest of the Bible?  There is a reason the OT and NT were bound together.  They MUST be taken into our hearts together.  The NT doesn't negate the OT, it enhances it. It gives us clarity.

----------


## Terry1

> I know that.  But, what does it have to do with the fact that so many Christians hyper-focus on NT verses to the exclusion of the rest of the Bible?  There is a reason the OT and NT were bound together.  They MUST be taken into our hearts together.  The NT doesn't negate the OT, it enhances it. It gives us clarity.


You hit the nail on the head Deb.  I know that we have some dispensationalists among us here that are having great difficulty because in order to understand what the NT is talking about--they must first understand what the OT was talking about.  Because the OT is a type and shadow of the NT--being the former and what was and *why under the NT covenant/law of grace through faith we have what we have now.

The reason some are not understanding the difference between these two very polar opposite set of works and assuming that the NT is talking about only one kind of works is because they have not read and understood the OT Covenant/law of Moses--even though Paul makes it more than clear that he's referring to the "works of the law"=Mosaic law--they are still confusing this law for the "law of faith" under the new covenant.

I've been saying this all along--that this is a huge and major problem with these eternal security/OSAS believers as well as the hard core Calvinists that deny that they're Calvinists.

----------


## Terry1

> Still waiting for you to address the points in my previous posts.
> 
> Was the paraplegic in my hypothetical scenario who could not move or speak or do anything saved, Terry?   Yes or no?


How desperate are you to use such an analogy Lily--thinking God not able to intercede for those who can not help themselves.  These are the very ones that we are called to help by doing the good works that without--they would suffer even more.

I take care of disabled people--who just happen to believe in God even in their state of physical and mental disability--I'm sure that's why God has placed them under my care as well.  

Example:  The gent I take care of wears a cross around his neck.  He's so brain damaged that he doesn't realize where he's at or how he got there, but yet and still--when I tried to take his cross off of him for an xray one day--he fought with me shaking his head *no*.  

God knows who's able and who isn't and this is no justification for you to be using to support your very unbiblical belief that all works are evil because you don't have the ability to understand the difference at this point and time in your life.


James 2: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

----------


## jmdrake

> Still waiting for you to address the points in my previous posts.
> 
> Was the paraplegic in my hypothetical scenario who could not move or speak or do anything saved, Terry?   Yes or no?


Do you have to move or speak to believe in God and pray to Him?  I thought you believed God can read minds?  I know I do.

----------


## Crashland

IMO, we should stop arguing about salvation by faith vs. salvation by works. The real question is, is it salvation by God's choice, or salvation by man's choice?

----------


## Deborah K

> IMO, we should stop arguing about salvation by faith vs. salvation by works. The real question is, is it salvation by God's choice, or salvation by man's choice?


Why can't it be both?  Why does it have to be one or the other?

----------


## Crashland

> Why can't it be both?  Why does it have to be one or the other?


Ok, I worded it poorly. Does salvation involve man's choice? Is making a particular choice (to believe in Jesus) a *prerequisite* for being saved, or is making a particular choice (to believe in Jesus) a *consequence* of being saved?

----------


## Terry1

> IMO, we should stop arguing about salvation by faith vs. salvation by works. The real question is, is it salvation by God's choice, or salvation by man's choice?


It is paramount as to *how we believe* Crash.  There is a right way and a wrong way to believe that determines our eternal destinies.

----------


## Crashland

> It is paramount as to *how we believe* Crash.  There is a right way and a wrong way to believe that determines our eternal destinies.


From the outside, that sounds a lot like salvation by works. Christians say it's not salvation by works, and then say that the only thing you have to do to be saved is X (where X = believing the right way). Even though it isn't a physical action, it's still an action that supposedly depends on us to do or not do.

----------


## jmdrake

> IMO, we should stop arguing about salvation by faith vs. salvation by works. The real question is, is it salvation by God's choice, or salvation by man's choice?





> From the outside, that sounds a lot like salvation by works. Christians say it's not salvation by works, and then say that the only thing you have to do to be saved is X (where X = believing the right way). Even though it isn't a physical action, it's still an action that supposedly depends on us to do or not do.


Crashland, I take it that when you believed you were a Calvinist?  Because that's the Calvinist argument that, frankly, we've had ad naseum.  I'm sure if Sola_Fide were here he would be pushing that line.  FreedomFanatic and Erowe1 believe it though they weren't as pushy as SF was about it.  Really what's happened is Kevin, who believes in OSAS, has basically taken over for Sola_Fide, who believed TULIP.  So many similarities in their argument style that it's scary.

----------


## Terry1

> From the outside, that sounds a lot like salvation by works. Christians say it's not salvation by works, and then say that the only thing you have to do to be saved is X (where X = believing the right way). Even though it isn't a physical action, it's still an action that supposedly depends on us to do or not do.


We are the "called" or "called out ones"--Ecclesia/Greek.  

We are called to a purpose in this life in our witness to others.  Commanded to love others the same way we love God and ourselves.  This is our good work and faith.  Faith and good works are not mutually exclusive.  They work together and is the only way a believer can retain faith without it dying.  Faith dies as a result of not bearing any fruits/good works--same thing.

If a believer claims that these good works are not necessary to maintain our faith and keep it alive in Christ--they are denying the very essence of faith as well.  Hence--if they remain in this state of belief for too long without realizing where they err--they can be cut off permanently as a result of not acting upon their faith via spiritual hearing and seeing that allows us to know what the Holy Spirit is telling us to do.

So, yes--it's actually essential that we understand *how to believe* and *why* regarding our eternal destinies in Christ.

----------


## Crashland

> Crashland, I take it that when you believed you were a Calvinist?  Because that's the Calvinist argument that, frankly, we've had ad naseum.  I'm sure if Sola_Fide were here he would be pushing that line.  FreedomFanatic and Erowe1 believe it though they weren't as pushy as SF was about it.  Really what's happened is Kevin, who believes in OSAS, has basically taken over for Sola_Fide, who believed TULIP.  So many similarities in their argument style that it's scary.


When I believed I was not a Calvinist, but right now the Calvinist line of thought is probably the version of Christianity that makes the most sense to me.

----------


## Crashland

> We are the "called" or "called out ones"--Ecclesia/Greek.  
> 
> We are called to a purpose in this life in our witness to others.  Commanded to love others the same way we love God and ourselves.  This is our good work and faith.  Faith and good works are not mutually exclusive.  They work together and is the only way a believer can retain faith without it dying.  Faith dies as a result of not bearing any fruits/good works--same thing.
> 
> If a believer claims that these good works are not necessary to maintain our faith and keep it alive in Christ--they are denying the very essence of faith as well.  Hence--if they remain in this state of belief for too long without realizing where they err--they can be cut off permanently as a result of not acting upon their faith via spiritual hearing and seeing that allows us to know what the Holy Spirit is telling us to do.
> 
> So, yes--it's actually essential that we understand *how to believe* and *why* regarding our eternal destinies in Christ.


I see your point, but I'm really only talking about "faith", not "good works". I understand that doing good deeds can be an unavoidable result of being saved and an evidence thereof. What I am saying though, is that *if* "faith" is a choice to believe something the right way, then that itself is also a work. Not a "good deed", but most certainly a 'work' or an 'action' that depends on us. A _prerequisite_ to salvation that depends on something that we do, a choice that we make. *If* that is the case, then I view that as being salvation by works (or, a single 'work').

----------


## Deborah K

> Ok, I worded it poorly. Does salvation involve man's choice? Is making a particular choice (to believe in Jesus) a *prerequisite* for being saved, or is making a particular choice (to believe in Jesus) a *consequence* of being saved?


I personally find the answer to that question with John 3:16




> For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Seems to me if you make a choice to believe, you are saved.

Where I part ways with other Christians, is in the theology of OSAS.  People can believe in him, and then fall away.  OSAS people seem to be claiming that if you've fallen away, you never really believed to begin with, thus, you were never saved.

Crash, as someone who has fallen away, what is your opinion about that?

----------


## lilymc

> Do you have to move or speak to believe in God and pray to Him?  I thought you believed God can read minds?  I know I do.


No, but I'm not the one saying that works are required to get saved.    So why are you asking me that?  Terry is the one who has claimed works are required for salvation.  Of course God can read minds and knows our hearts!  That's the whole point!  He cares about our hearts!  The works inevitably follow, once we have that changed mind/heart.

----------


## lilymc

> How desperate are you to use such an analogy Lily--thinking God not able to intercede for those who can not help themselves.  These are the very ones that we are called to help by doing the good works that without--they would suffer even more.
> 
> I take care of disabled people--who just happen to believe in God even in their state of physical and mental disability--I'm sure that's why God has placed them under my care as well.  
> 
> Example:  The gent I take care of wears a cross around his neck.  He's so brain damaged that he doesn't realize where he's at or how he got there, but yet and still--when I tried to take his cross off of him for an xray one day--he fought with me shaking his head *no*.  
> 
> God knows who's able and who isn't and this is no justification for you to be using to support your very unbiblical belief that all works are evil because you don't have the ability to understand the difference at this point and time in your life.
> 
> 
> ...


I asked you to answer with a yes or no.  Did that guy get saved, yes or no?

And I absolutely never said works are evil.  That is a big fat lie.  You are showing that Annie and others are right - you constantly   put forth very deceptive, clever (but dishonest) misrepresentations, that cause people to have to first correct your lie before they can even get to the actual crux of the argument.

----------


## lilymc

> I personally find the answer to that question with John 3:16
> 
> Seems to me if you make a choice to believe, you are saved.
> 
> Where I part ways with other Christians, is in the theology of OSAS.  People can believe in him, and then fall away.  OSAS people seem to be claiming that if you've fallen away, you never really believed to begin with, thus, you were never saved.
> 
> Crash, as someone who has fallen away, what is your opinion about that?


Please check out that video I posted yesterday, when you have a bit of time.  He goes through all the arguments against OSAS, and he does a good job in explaining it and showing how it's sometimes misunderstood.

----------


## Crashland

> I personally find the answer to that question with John 3:16


The thing is with John 3:16, belief is something that is not necessarily permanent, but everlasting life is permanent. So I don't think it really provides a clear answer one way or the other.





> Seems to me if you make a choice to believe, you are saved.
> 
> Where I part ways with other Christians, is in the theology of OSAS.  People can believe in him, and then fall away.  OSAS people seem to be claiming that if you've fallen away, you never really believed to begin with, thus, you were never saved.
> 
> Crash, as someone who has fallen away, what is your opinion about that?


When I did believe, I subscribed to OSAS. Now as someone outside the faith, I'm not sure if I have an opinion. I have issues with both sides, so when the two sides here start attacking each other, I usually agree with everyone :-P The only point that I really take major issue with though, is when someone combines OSAS with eternal security (being able to know 100% that you are saved). I have a big issue with that, or if someone tells me that I could not have truly believed before. The state of my salvation is one thing, but I *know* that I used to be 100% convinced and believed in Jesus with my whole heart, and it is a bit offensive for someone to claim they know my own experience better than I do or to call me a liar.

What I do claim though is that belief in God is not a choice. You can't just will yourself to believe something that you don't think is true. You as a Christian could not just will yourself to believe that Zeus is the god of thunder. So also anyone who simply doesn't think that the Christian god is real, can't just choose to believe in it. It doesn't work that way.

----------


## Kevin007

> I know that.  But, what does it have to do with the fact that so many Christians hyper-focus on NT verses to the exclusion of the rest of the Bible?  There is a reason the OT and NT were bound together.  They MUST be taken into our hearts together.  The NT doesn't negate the OT, it enhances it. It gives us clarity.


the OT was about Law and the need for constant animal sacrifices. The NT is about Grace and a one time final perfect sacrifice for sin. Much different.

----------


## Kevin007

> So you're basically saying that you don't even have to try to be good or do anything good because J*esus did all of that for you.*  Well--that's certainly another way of thinking that Jesus's death and resurrection gave you a license to sin all the more with nothing more than maybe a few jewels knocked out of your crown for being an evil boy. lol
> 
> Believe as you wish--we are about at the end of this discussion I do believe.  Good night.


did all of what?

----------


## Kevin007

> Why can't it be both?  Why does it have to be one or the other?


because you cannot mix faith with works. (law and grace) You cannot have faith in your works- only in Jesus. You cannot mix the 2. Either its salvation by law or salvation by grace. Which do you choose?

----------


## Kevin007

Romans 11:6  says, "If [salvation is] by grace, then it is no more of works;  otherwise grace is no more grace."

----------


## Kevin007

> You hit the nail on the head Deb.  I know that we have some dispensationalists among us here that are having great difficulty because in order to understand what the NT is talking about--they must first understand what the OT was talking about.  Because the OT is a type and shadow of the NT--being the former and what was and *why under the NT covenant/law of grace through faith we have what we have now.
> 
> The reason some are not understanding the difference between these two very polar opposite set of works and assuming that the NT is talking about only one kind of works is because they have not read and understood the OT Covenant/law of Moses--even though Paul makes it more than clear that he's referring to the "works of the law"=Mosaic law--they are still confusing this law for the "law of faith" under the new covenant.
> 
> I've been saying this all along--that this is a huge and major problem with these eternal security/OSAS believers as well as the hard core Calvinists that deny that they're Calvinists.


how many laws in the law of faith?

----------


## lilymc

> because you cannot mix faith with works. (law and grace) You cannot have faith in your works- only in Jesus. You cannot mix the 2. Either its salvation by law or salvation by grace. Which do you choose?


She was replying to the question, "is it salvation by God's choice, or salvation by man's choice?"

----------


## Kevin007

> She was replying to the question, "is it salvation by God's choice, or salvation by man's choice?"


ahh, ok

----------


## Kevin007

Salvation  is through faith in Christ alone. Any person who believes any work is necessary for salvation is showing that he  disbelieves in the all-sufficiency of grace, and will never be saved on  his own merits. Christ's provision of salvation can't be worth anything  if you don't fully trust Him.

----------


## lilymc

> Salvation  is through faith in Christ alone. Any person who believes any work is necessary for salvation is showing that he  disbelieves in the all-sufficiency of grace, and will never be saved on  his own merits. Christ's provision of salvation can't be worth anything  if you don't fully trust Him.


I think that the people who reject that (perhaps unknowingly) are showing that they don't trust God.  They don't trust that HE is able to know the difference between someone who is a genuine believer with a contrite heart before God.... and someone who just says some empty words, when it comes to salvation.  Know what I mean?

People, you can trust God.  He knows how to do His job.   No one can pull the wool over His eyes.

I've come to realize that people who reject the Gospel of Grace also usually are the ones who don't understand about being born again, and that it is absolutely essential, and that it is life-changing.

----------


## Crashland

> Salvation  is through faith in Christ alone. Any person who believes any work is necessary for salvation is showing that he  disbelieves in the all-sufficiency of grace, and will never be saved on  his own merits. Christ's provision of salvation can't be worth anything  if you don't fully trust Him.


No work is necessary, except of course having faith in Christ...

----------


## Deborah K

> Salvation  is through faith in Christ alone. Any person who believes any work is necessary for salvation is showing that he  disbelieves in the all-sufficiency of grace, and will never be saved on  his own merits. Christ's provision of salvation can't be worth anything  if you don't fully trust Him.


I don't believe that one can only be saved on his own merits.  What I believe is, that one chooses to believe.  And I believe that once you choose to believe, it is incumbent upon you to be ever vigilant in your belief, and that means behaving in a way that pleases God.  I also believe, that you can fall into disbelief and turn away from God.

----------


## Kevin007

> I don't believe that one can only be saved on his own merits.  What I believe is, that one chooses to believe.  And I believe that once you choose to believe, it is incumbent upon you to be ever vigilant in your belief, and that means behaving in a way that pleases God.  I also believe, that you can fall into disbelief and turn away from God.


no one can live in a way pleasing to God except by accepting Jesus as our Savior. Our obedience doesn't affect our salvation, only our fellowship.

----------


## Crashland

> no one can live in a way pleasing to God except by accepting Jesus as our Savior. Our obedience doesn't affect our salvation, only our fellowship.


She didn't claim otherwise.

----------


## Kevin007

> She didn't claim otherwise.


read it again, closely. She believes you can lose your salvation.

----------


## Deborah K

> no one can live in a way pleasing to God except by accepting Jesus as our Savior. Our obedience doesn't affect our salvation, only our fellowship.


I believe our choices affect our salvation.

----------


## redmod79

If you truly love the Lord and have faith in Him and that His son Jesus died for our sins, wouldn't you obey his commandments?  It seems to me that if you don't obey His commandments, then you don't have faith and don't really love Him.  We have all sinned which is why we needed Jesus to die for our sins and faith is the only way for us to be saved.

Obeying laws without love is not the same as having faith... but if you truly have faith you will both love the Lord and obey His commandments.  How could you possibly not?  Please consider this.  I am not in any way trying to say that works save you... not at all whatsoever.  You can do all the good deeds in the world without love and faith and it will not save you.... same with His commandments.

You don't obey because you want to be saved but because you love the Lord.

I have a long ways to go in my own faith.  My actions have not always indicated that I truly love the Lord and that I have truly repented for my sins.

----------


## Kevin007

> If you truly love the Lord and have faith in Him and that His son Jesus died for our sins, wouldn't you obey his commandments?  It seems to me that if you don't obey His commandments, then you don't have faith and don't really love Him.  We have all sinned which is why we needed Jesus to die for our sins and faith is the only way for us to be saved.
> 
> Obeying laws without love is not the same as having faith... but if you truly have faith you will both love the Lord and obey His commandments.  How could you possibly not?  Please consider this.  I am not in any way trying to say that works save you... not at all whatsoever.  You can do all the good deeds in the world without love and faith and it will not save you.... same with His commandments.
> 
> *You don't obey because you want to be saved but because you love the Lord.*
> 
> I have a long ways to go in my own faith.  My actions have not always indicated that I truly love the Lord and that I have truly repented for my sins.


yes and you obey because you are already saved....

----------


## Kevin007

the law isn't the knowledge of God, only the knowledge of sin.

----------


## Terry1

> yes and you obey because you are already saved....


We obey because we choose to remaine saved and of the elect.  Stop believing and obeying means that you're not in the spirit of the Lord.  Only repentance can bring you back--this is a choice.  If you never return to God--He won't return to you.  That doesn't mean you were never in the state of elect or saved--it means they chose to abandon the spirit of the Lord.

Saved or elect in this life is only permanent if the believer chooses to remain in the spirit to the very end of their lives.  Salvation is not permanent as in "can not snatch them out of my hands" until after this life when they've been perfected and glorified.

The only thing that keeps us safe and within the state of elect and saved in this life is if you continually abide in Christ and to the very end of it.  Otherwise, if we don't and for too long--we can fall out of the state of elect and salvation and be lost forever at that point.

----------


## Kevin007

> We obey because we choose to remaine saved and of the elect.  Stop believing and obeying means that you're not in the spirit of the Lord.  Only repentance can bring you back--this is a choice.  If you never return to God--He won't return to you.  That doesn't mean you were never in the state of elect or saved--it means they chose to abandon the spirit of the Lord.
> 
> Saved or elect in this life is only permanent if the believer chooses to remain in the spirit to the very end of their lives.  Salvation is not permanent as in "can not snatch them out of my hands" until after this life when they've been perfected and glorified.
> 
> The only thing that keeps us safe and within the state of elect and saved in this life is if you *continually abide in Christ* and to the very end of it.  Otherwise, if we don't and for too long--we can fall out of the state of elect and salvation and be lost forever at that point.


what does this mean? Do you continually abide in Christ Terry?

----------


## Kevin007

T*erry- as far as your fruit and vine passage you like to always use; you have it all wrong- the meaning of that passage is this; 

**The  vine-and-branches concept makes an ideal metaphor, because it is filled  with parallels to our relationship with Christ. A branch grows through  its connection with the vine, and we grow because of our relationship  with Christ. A branch is nothing apart from the vine, and we can do  nothing apart from Him. A branch draws strength from the vine, and we  become strong through Him. Our spiritual growth (sanctification) is dependent on us staying close to Jesus and His Word. Our sanctification/growth is either sped up or stunted by this. Our obedience to God affects our spiritual growth. But our eternal salvation is secure. We do not grow in our salvation, only in our sanctification. Our salvation is something Jesus accomplished. Our sanctification, growth on the vine is something we can control. We cannot do anything apart from the Holy Spirit in us that is good. Our position in Christ never changes once we are saved- we are deemed innocent and justified.*

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## Kevin007

1 John 2:19  "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had  been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so  that it would be shown that they all are not of us."


 those who do not abide will be judged. Jesus said- "If  anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up;  and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned." Jesus is referring to the Judas like branches which are false disciples. Since they  have no living connection to Jesus, they are cast out.

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## Kevin007

John 2  24-25)- "As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the  beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also  will abide in the Son and in the Father. This is the promise which He  Himself made to us: eternal life."

----------


## Kevin007

> I believe our choices affect our salvation.


*
yes it does- when we chose Jesus as our Savior.


All  true believers are saved. Christ guarantees it. We have been justified, we are being  sanctified, and we will be glorified.*

----------


## Natural Citizen

I had posted a comment here but decided to go back and delete it just because it was the kind of thing better suited for pm.

So here's a nice picture of a basket of fruit. It's the best I could come up with.



Proceed...

----------


## Deborah K

> *
> yes it does- when we chose Jesus as our Savior.
> 
> 
> All  true believers are saved. Christ guarantees it. We have been justified, we are being  sanctified, and we will be glorified.*


So, you believe we can freely choose, or not choose to believe in the Messiah?

----------


## erowe1

> T*erry- as far as your fruit and vine passage you like to always use; you have it all wrong- the meaning of that passage is this; 
> 
> **The  vine-and-branches concept makes an ideal metaphor, because it is filled  with parallels to our relationship with Christ. A branch grows through  its connection with the vine, and we grow because of our relationship  with Christ. A branch is nothing apart from the vine, and we can do  nothing apart from Him. A branch draws strength from the vine, and we  become strong through Him. Our spiritual growth (sanctification) is dependent on us staying close to Jesus and His Word. Our sanctification/growth is either sped up or stunted by this. Our obedience to God affects our spiritual growth. But our eternal salvation is secure. We do not grow in our salvation, only in our sanctification. Our salvation is something Jesus accomplished. Our sanctification, growth on the vine is something we can control. We cannot do anything apart from the Holy Spirit in us that is good. Our position in Christ never changes once we are saved- we are deemed innocent and justified.*


What vinedressers do is pick out which branches they are going to tend as fruit bearing branches and which ones they're going to cut off early on before any of the branches actually become fruit bearers. They choose some not to be fruit bearers and cut them off, and they choose others to be fruit bearers and leave them on and tend them to make sure they bear fruit, which they go on to do. It's not like they just leave all the branches there and wait and see which ones bear fruit and only then cut off the ones that don't.

----------


## moostraks

> no one can live in a way pleasing to God except by accepting Jesus as our Savior. Our obedience doesn't affect our salvation, only our fellowship.


Colossians 1:9For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, *10so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously* 12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light...

      21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, *in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.*

----------


## moostraks

> What vinedressers do is pick out which branches they are going to tend as fruit bearing branches and which ones they're going to cut off early on before any of the branches actually become fruit bearers. They choose some not to be fruit bearers and cut them off, and they choose others to be fruit bearers and leave them on and tend them to make sure they bear fruit, which they go on to do. It's not like they just leave all the branches there and wait and see which ones bear fruit and only then cut off the ones that don't.



John 15: 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

----------


## Beorn

I don't understand why this is a unique problem for Calvinists and others who believe in the perseverance of the saints. 
It just seems to me that Calvinists have a better grip on the depth of the offense against God by the "tiniest" of sins and the unimaginable expanse of God's grace to cover them. Sure on the one hand it can lead to anti-nomianism, but the danger of the opposing view is having seperate lists of acceptable sins and damnable sins.

----------


## erowe1

> John 15: 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.


Exactly.

----------


## erowe1

> Colossians 1:9For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, *10so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously* 12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light...
> 
>       21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, *in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.*


Notice this is a prayer to God. If these things happen in peoples' lives, they happen because God brings them about. He is not a passive observer waiting to see if people choose to do it.

Notice also that those who already are reconciled are the ones who are going to continue in the faith. This is the doctrine of perseverance of the saints.

----------


## otherone

> I had posted a comment here but decided to go back and delete it just because it was the kind of thing better suited for pm.
> 
> So here's a nice picture of a basket of fruit. It's the best I could come up with.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Proceed...


here's pearls before swine....

----------


## moostraks

> What vinedressers do is pick out which branches they are going to tend as fruit bearing branches and which ones they're going to cut off early on before any of the branches actually become fruit bearers. *They choose some not to be fruit bearers and cut them off, and they choose others to be fruit bearers and leave them on and tend them to make sure they bear fruit,* which they go on to do. It's not like they just leave all the branches there and wait and see which ones bear fruit and only then cut off the ones that don't.





> John 15: 2Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.





> Exactly.


Really? Exactly you say? You don't garden much do you? It's a bit different from what you propose. A gardener knows the plant being pruned intimately. You don't just arbitrarily go whacking off branches. You don't choose some not to be fruit bearers and remove them. You assess what is dead and remove it from the source. You carefully prune those portions that are fruit bearing of straggly portions and areas that have gone to seed. 

If I treated my trees like you propose they would likely go into shock. Trees can die from improper pruning. Jus' sayin'. So No, not exactly at all...

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## jmdrake

> No, but I'm not the one saying that works are required to get saved.    So why are you asking me that?  Terry is the one who has claimed works are required for salvation.  Of course God can read minds and knows our hearts!  That's the whole point!  He cares about our hearts!  The works inevitably follow, once we have that changed mind/heart.


I'm asking you that because your argument makes absolutely no sense.  If I pray out loud it's a prayer.  If I pray in my heart it's a prayer.  If one believes one needs to do the "work" of praying to be saved it makes no difference whether the prayer is silent or vocal.  Man has already figured out how to do things like operate a wheelchair through brainwaves.  So someday someone who is totally paralyzed may "work" on your car.

----------


## lilymc

> I'm asking you that because your argument makes absolutely no sense.  If I pray out loud it's a prayer.  If I pray in my heart it's a prayer.  If one believes one needs to do the "work" of praying to be saved it makes no difference whether the prayer is silent or vocal.  Man has already figured out how to do things like operate a wheelchair through brainwaves.  So someday someone who is totally paralyzed may "work" on your car.


 I don't know what your point is.  Did you think I was claiming that a prayer was "work?"  That's not what I was saying at all.

My whole point - all along-  has been that what is important is our HEART, putting our faith in Jesus and that* inner change of mind and heart* that only GOD can see, because He knows our hearts.

So that paraplegic  in the example who cannot move or do any "good works" got saved, because of that change of mind and heart and putting his faith in Christ and Christ alone, not his works.

That was my point.     But according to Terry or anyone who believes works are required to be saved, that man is not saved.  

(well, the question was never really answered directly, with a yes or no....so she can correct me if she does indeed think that man got saved.)

How does that not make sense to you?

----------


## moostraks

> Notice this is a prayer to God. If these things happen in peoples' lives, they happen because God brings them about. He is not a passive observer waiting to see if people choose to do it.
> 
> Notice also that those who already are reconciled are the ones who are going to continue in the faith. This is the doctrine of perseverance of the saints.


Revelation 3:20King James Version (KJV)

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

I doubt many could ignore that when using Scripture from the NT, it is He who initiates considering Rev 3:20. I disagree with your perseverance of the saints argument, but guess some need that reassurance *~shrugs~*

----------


## moostraks

> I don't know what your point is.  Did you think I was claiming that a prayer was "work?"  That's not what I was saying at all.
> 
> My whole point - all along-  has been that what is important is our HEART, putting our faith in Jesus and that* inner change of mind and heart* that only GOD can see, because He knows our hearts.
> 
> So that paraplegic  in the example who cannot move or do any "good works" got saved, because of that change of mind and heart and putting his faith in Christ and Christ alone, not his works.
> 
> That was my point.     But according to Terry or anyone who believes works are required to be saved, that man is not saved.  
> 
> (well, the question was never really answered directly, with a yes or no....so she can correct me if she does indeed think that man got saved.)
> ...


I think what is being argued is that the works of the paraplegic is those of the heart. So while you say show me his works, it is in how he thinks. And nowadays with computer assistance, a quadraplegic is able to do more than just think.

----------


## lilymc

> I think what is being argued is that the works of the paraplegic is those of the heart. So while you say show me his works, it is in how he thinks. And nowadays with computer assistance, a quadraplegic is able to do more than just think.


That strikes me as a clever game or loophole  for works proponents to rationalize their works-based position.

What the guy in the example had was *faith*, not works.  He believed, he realized he was a sinner and he responded to Jesus' call to receive the gift of salvation.... through* faith in Jesus.*

Faith is not the same thing as works.  If there was no difference, then tons of scriptures in the bible would be pointless and make no sense, because they clearly make a distinction between faith and works.

To say otherwise reminds me of Bill Clinton saying, "that depends on what the meaning of the word IS is."   Or a kid caught in a lie rationalizing it by playing word games instead of being sincere.

But I can see how works proponents would feel the need to do that.

----------


## moostraks

> That strikes me as a clever game or loophole  for works proponents to rationalize their works-based position.
> 
> What the guy in the example had was *faith*, not works.  He believed, he realized he was a sinner and he responded to Jesus' call to receive the gift of salvation.... through* faith in Jesus.*
> 
> To say otherwise reminds me of Bill Clinton saying, "that depends on what the meaning of the word IS is."   Or a kid caught in a lie rationalizing it by playing word games instead of being sincere.
> 
> But I can see how works proponents would feel the need to do that.


Well you see it as a clever game of people loopholing for works based salvation, but others see the verse of faith without works and understand it (faith) as an action, and see that it is visible in its many manifestations. Such as adultery. If you really love your spouse then you don't go to the strip clubs and look and get away with it. You don't even think about another because the thought is where the heart is not merely the physical act.

Matthew 5: 27You have heard that it was said, YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; 28but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

I don't see why all the animosity and arguing. It is as though many say that what you must believe is x and all the rest is taken care of from there, but someone says I believe x but then says in action, to my understanding, it is visible as ______, then seems as though either x wasn't what was really necessary but that one agrees to whatever extras are being attached to it according to whom they are discussing the subject. 

I don't have any expectations of others agreeing with me. I have been called stupid so many times I doubted my own intelligence. I offer up my opinion and experiences but don't expect anything to come from it. Each person perceives things through what their own life experiences have manifested in their life. The arguing and people trying to pick other folks off of the church they are committing themselves to through carefully manipulated arguments, it's all depressing and seems to be counter productive.

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## jmdrake

> That strikes me as a clever game or loophole  for works proponents to rationalize their works-based position.
> 
> What the guy in the example had was *faith*, not works.  He believed, he realized he was a sinner and he responded to Jesus' call to receive the gift of salvation.... through* faith in Jesus.*
> 
> Faith is not the same thing as works.  If there was no difference, then tons of scriptures in the bible would be pointless and make no sense, because they clearly make a distinction between faith and works.
> 
> To say otherwise reminds me of Bill Clinton saying, "that depends on what the meaning of the word IS is."   Or a kid caught in a lie rationalizing it by playing word games instead of being sincere.
> 
> But I can see how works proponents would feel the need to do that.


Okay.  Fill in the blank.  The difference between saying a prayer and thinking a prayer, when God can read our minds, is ......?  Really, I think you are the one playing the Bill Clinton game here.

----------


## lilymc

> Okay.  Fill in the blank.  The difference between saying a prayer and thinking a prayer, when God can read our minds, is ......?  Really, I think you are the one playing the Bill Clinton game here.


What are you talking about?      I never said there was a difference!    You are missing the point entirely!

The point is, he had *faith*  -  his inner change of mind and heart, his belief and faith is what saved him, not works.

I'll ask you again -  are you claiming that a prayer is works?       Do you not see what really matters here?   A prayer is not what matters.... A prayer means nothing if the words are empty and if there is no genuine faith and change of mind/heart.  God cares about what is going on on the inside. Do you disagree?

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## Dr.3D

I'm getting confused here.  Was this question ever answered?




> Think about this hypothetical scenario.   A nonbeliever  gets in a major car accident, and becomes a paraplegic, not having ANY use of his body whatsoever....he can't walk, he can't do anything, he can't even speak anymore... yet he is still alive and can still think.     Now, while he is laying there doing nothing, he realizes that he is a sinner and that He needs God.  His heart - that used to be hard and unbelieving -  is softened and he humbles himself and  in his mind  he calls out to God.  So, this paraplegic puts all his faith in God, and becomes saved.     *If  good works were necessary to get saved, then that man obviously could not get saved, because he didn't do anything except for put his faith in God. Right?*    Yet that man was justified, by his faith and faith alone.

----------


## Terry1

> That strikes me as a clever game or loophole  for works proponents to rationalize their works-based position.
> 
> What the guy in the example had was *faith*, not works.  He believed, he realized he was a sinner and he responded to Jesus' call to receive the gift of salvation.... through* faith in Jesus.*
> 
> To say otherwise reminds me of Bill Clinton saying, "that depends on what the meaning of the word IS is."   Or a kid caught in a lie rationalizing it by playing word games instead of being sincere.
> 
> But I can see how works proponents would feel the need to do that.



Lord help me here--I can't not stay away from this with you Lily.  I want you to answer a question here if you please.  No one is playing word games with you.

Are these two scriptures saying the very same thing or not?  If not explain why then if you will.

*James 2:*

24 *Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only*. 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


*Romans 3:28

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Let me try to explain this to you one more time.  The cursed law of deed/works is the Mosaic Law.  That is the Law that Jesus fulfilled and freed us from on the cross and is not referring to the "law of faith and good works" that Paul, James and the NT tell us to do as in here.

Galatians 3:  13 *Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written*, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.

*Daniel 9:11

Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

(Proof that Moses wrote an oath as to his law being a witness *against those who lived under it here just as Daniel said)

Deuteronomy 31:26
26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

And this is also why Moses commanded the Levites to place the book of the Mosaic Law in the *side* of the Ark of the Covanent to show that this was a temporal law, while the Ten Commandments were placed top dead center in the Ark to prove that the Ten Commandments were at the very center of the will of God and forever here:

Deuteronomy 31
25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying,

26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.



This is the cursed "law"-"deeds" that Paul is talking to the Jews about as being a "curse to them" is the Mosaic Law and those who refuse to accept Christ and live under the New Covenant/Law of Faith now.  Paul is referring to *two major covenant here and two polar opposite set of "works" as dead works vs good works.  One we told not to do and the other we are instructed *to do* under the Law of faith.

This was what the entire New Testament is about--the apostles witnessing to the Jews who refused to accept Christ work on the cross by continuing to live under the curse of the Mosaic Law.  And they're doing it to this very day and anyone who refuses to believe in Christ and His " GOOD WORK" OF FAITH ON THAT CROSS.




*

*John 1:17

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*Acts 13:39

And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*Acts 15:5

But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*Romans 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
*

~~~~~~~~~~~~

*Hebrews 10: 28 He (Jesus) that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Lily--please read me out and try to see what I'm trying to say to you here.  Jesus died to fulfill the curse of the Mosaic Law and that is the "law" that Paul tells us is a curse to us to do.  Those scripture in Romans chapter 3: 28 that you posted are talking about the dead works under the Mosaic Law--not the good works that both James and Paul talk about that do justify us under faith.  Faith must have works or else it's dead.  You have to come out from under this veil that is blinding you to the truth here.  You're the one missing out on the fullness of truth in Gods word by believing this doctrine you're subscribing to.

Paul tells you here that you must have "a work of faith". 

* 1 Thessalonians 1:3

Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


*2 Thessalonians 1:11

Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power*


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*Romans 3:27

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Paul is distinguishing between two different laws.  One being the curse of the law of Moses and the other "the law of faith".  Dead works are done under the curse of the Mosaic Law and good works are done in faith under the Law of faith.

This the reveals to you that James and Paul are saying the exact same thing--that we are justified by faith because faith without our good works is dead being alone.

----------


## lilymc

> Well you see it as a clever game of people loopholing for works based salvation, but others see the verse of faith without works and understand it (faith) as an action, and see that it is visible in its many manifestations. Such as adultery. If you really love your spouse then you don't go to the strip clubs and look and get away with it. You don't even think about another because the thought is where the heart is not merely the physical act.
> 
> Matthew 5: 27You have heard that it was said, YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; 28but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
> 
> I don't see why all the animosity and arguing. It is as though many say that what you must believe is x and all the rest is taken care of from there, but someone says I believe x but then says in action, to my understanding, it is visible as ______, then seems as though either x wasn't what was really necessary but that one agrees to whatever extras are being attached to it according to whom they are discussing the subject. 
> 
> I don't have any expectations of others agreeing with me. I have been called stupid so many times I doubted my own intelligence. I offer up my opinion and experiences but don't expect anything to come from it. Each person perceives things through what their own life experiences have manifested in their life. The arguing and people trying to pick other folks off of the church they are committing themselves to through carefully manipulated arguments, it's all depressing and seems to be counter productive.


I think that we're still not understanding each other here.   

There is a distinction between faith and works.   We are saved by Grace, through faith, not works, lest any man should boast.  

In God's eyes, we are justified by faith.  To the rest of the world, we are justified by our works, because they can't see inside our heart like God can.

You seem to be saying that you see faith as an action....  Well, I agree that it's good to put faith into action, but when it comes to justification (the initial "getting saved" moment") it's not about our works, it's about coming to Jesus, understanding we're a sinner in need of salvation and *believing and trusting* in HIM and in HIS work on the cross, which pays our debt for us.    Salvation is a gift.  If we have to "pay" for the gift, then it's no longer a gift. And that directly contradicts the scriptures.

And I'm sorry if I was a bit testy.  I apologize.  It's just that this is such an important topic, and it makes me mad that some churches are leading people away from the simple Gospel.... and distorting it, adding to it, making it more difficult, which leads people away from God.   I have no doubt that the enemy has used "religion" to lead countless people away from God.

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## lilymc

> I'm getting confused here.  Was this question ever answered?


Not directly, in a "yes or no" way.  It was sort of danced around.... I would still like to hear a  yes or no.

----------


## Deborah K

Quick question:

Is everyone in agreement that a saved person can fall from grace?  I'm guessing not.

----------


## lilymc

Terry, we've gone over the James verses numerous times.  You never really responded to what some of us have been saying about that, as far as I've seen.

I'll post this again for you.


Justification is a pronouncement to clear the guilty. When one is justified, he is declared right before the Lord; he is pardoned and cleared of any violation. there is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus (Rom.8)

Rom 3:24-25 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed.

Rom 5:1: Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Rom 5:9: Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Our justification is by faith in the work of the Son of God on the cross, his shed blood and death for forgiveness of our sins.

-------------------

*Most cults ignore the work of justification, focus on a person's sanctification, saying that it is our performance that will justify someone and clear their guilt before God.* This view avoids the completed work of Christ and takes the emphasis off of grace and puts it on one's performance. They will either combine sanctification with justification or say that we have neither, that they are both a future tense like glorification.

-------------------

Paul writes in Romans 4 and relates it to Gen. 15, that Abraham was justified 19 years before the event of his obedience to sacrifice his son. Nowhere are works applied to Abraham's grounds of justification before God.

*Paul and James are discussing two different concerns.*  Looking more carefully this so-called tension is resolved. Paul discusses theologically how a sinner is considered righteous before God.  James is concerned with what kind of faith results in salvation, since he is addressing a particular problem that has arisen in the Jerusalem church.  If one has no works springing out of their confession of belief is this true faith?  Can it be saving faith? Works wrought in Christ flow from a living source.   We are not doing good works to be created in Christ, which is what this would be if justification is an ongoing process related to one's deeds.  We are doing good works because we are already "in Christ".  We are new creations, so what follows is the fruit of the Spirit occurring sometime in a Christian's life. Naturally speaking, some trees take longer to produce fruit than other trees, but a good tree will always yield some good fruit.  A farmer summarizes a good tree by its yield throughout its lifetime, not by one or two years. (Matt. 13 - 100 fold, 60, 30).  *One's works declare and manifest outwardly the reality of faith which is not visible to man.* The fruit that a tree bears shows it is alive, healthy and productive. The fruit of a tree is not what makes a tree alive. Spiritually, faith is alive first, then proceeds the good works, showing what is invisible on the inside, outwardly.

We read in James 2:21, "Was not Abraham, our father, justified by works when he offered Isaac, his son, on the altar?"

In what sense was he justified since he was already pronounced right before God years prior to this? James is saying, in contrast to Paul, that God was able to see that Abraham was righteous already, but until Abraham lifted his knife over Isaac in obedience, only God knew his righteousness. One event occurred before God who alone knows our hearts, and the other is before man who can only perceive the outward actions. In other words, our faith is invisible and can only be expressed outwardly by our works. This is the point that James is trying to emphasize, we show our faith by our deeds to our fellow man.

*Our works justify the believer in the demonstrative sense, not in the procurative sense, meaning good works are not the grounds for our legal justification before God. They justify us before the eyes of man, demonstrating what is alive on the inside.* When James says faith without works is dead, he is warning against a "words only" intellectual ascent to faith. James is not speaking about the theological aspect of justification before God, but the practical aspect before man. God alone looks at the heart but by works man is justified before other men, who can only look at the outward appearance.

http://www.letusreason.org/occ1.htm

----------


## moostraks

> I think that we're still not understanding each other here.   
> 
> There is a distinction between faith and works.   We are saved by Grace, through faith, not works, lest any man should boast.  
> 
> In God's eyes, we are justified by faith.  To the rest of the world, we are justified by our works, because they can't see inside our heart like God can.
> 
> You seem to be saying that you see faith as an action....  Well, I agree that it's good to put faith into action, but when it comes to justification (the initial "getting saved" moment") it's not about our works, it's about coming to Jesus, understanding we're a sinner in need of salvation and *believing and trusting* in HIM and in HIS work on the cross, which pays our debt for us.    Salvation is a gift.  If we have to "pay" for the gift, then it's no longer a gift. And that directly contradicts the scriptures.
> 
> And I'm sorry if I was a bit testy.  I apologize.  It's just that this is such an important topic, and it makes me mad that some churches are leading people away from the simple Gospel.... and distorting it, adding to it, making it more difficult, which leads people away from God.   I have no doubt that the enemy has used "religion" to lead countless people away from God.


I am sure you see the comprehension from your perspective as of utmost importance but I don't come to thinking of things in the manner that you are segregating them anymore. (That isn't meant as an attack but as a means to differentiate your position from mine) I don't want to argue about the salvation, justification, sanctification discussion. It just makes for hard feelings unless one person budges and I don't see it happening. I don't want to change your p.o.v. but offer to you that others have a different perception of works.

I have seen you and several others going round and round and thought maybe I could help with trying to explain this from another voice. That maybe it could be understood as a matter of perception? 

Our soul (thoughts, emotions) are our energy, life force. We became legalistic as a species. When discussing the New Testament and talking about faith without works and then try to rationalize but what about the quadriplegic, or the thief on the cross, and try to comprehend how does that figure into the discussion. Well if we are to see that it is the actions of the heart that are relevant, then we understand all the works are a matter of the heart. So everyone brings works who opens the door and sups with Him and is being assessed according to all this soul activity. As a species we are past the argument about what tangible products does one have to offer forth to show the neighbors.(Those are only beneficial for us to assess whom to associate with and to what extent) From the point of reaching for the door, the clock starts ticking. Or should I say the heart is fertile for fruit? Every cognizant being has had a knock, ignore it, and the flame is suffocated, but a gift has no value to a recipient until it is accepted. Our first activity in faith is how we accept the gift we are given. 

Frustration with other churches for teaching differently rarely is effective or healthy from my experiences. If someone says they agree with you that salvation is a free gift, and there is nothing one could do to lose this saving faith, from your perspective, as they have been saved by this gift that they _honestly acknowledge_ to have accepted as a free gift, then arguing over the fact they aren't thinking your way (re: works, OSAS, Perseverance of Saints, insert whatever argument here) seems to refute the simplistic nature of the case you are presenting. All these other arguments are a case of trying to pull someone into the particular fold you embrace, imo. If you present your case, and someone is repeatedly disagreeing with you then kick the dust off.

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## jmdrake

> What are you talking about?      I never said there was a difference!    You are missing the point entirely!
> 
> The point is, he had *faith*  -  his inner change of mind and heart, his belief and faith is what saved him, not works.
> 
> I'll ask you again -  are you claiming that a prayer is works?       Do you not see what really matters here?   A prayer is not what matters.... A prayer means nothing if the words are empty and if there is no genuine faith and change of mind/heart.  God cares about what is going on on the inside. Do you disagree?


A prayer is a prayer.  I guess I'm disagreeing with the proposition that "work" requires movement or speech.  If I lust in my heart or hate my brother am I doing a bad work?  Jesus seemed to think so.  The fact that I might take no physical action or even vocalize my inner lust or hatred doesn't seem to matter.  I wouldn't call prayer work.  But if it is a work, then it's still a work even if it requires no physical action and/or vocalization.

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## Crashland

> A prayer is a prayer.  I guess I'm disagreeing with the proposition that "work" requires movement or speech.  If I lust in my heart or hate my brother am I doing a bad work?  Jesus seemed to think so.  The fact that I might take no physical action or even vocalize my inner lust or hatred doesn't seem to matter.  I wouldn't call prayer work.  But if it is a work, then it's still a work even if it requires no physical action and/or vocalization.


I consider a 'work' to be *anything that depends on you to do or not do*. According to many Christians, believing in God/Jesus is something that you choose. If that is the case then I see that as exactly the same as salvation by 'works'. A 'work' doesn't have to be a physical action. If salvation truly had nothing to do with works, then your salvation would not be affected by *you* at all.

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## lilymc

There seems to be some clever rationalizing going on here.... in order to defend the works-based position.    

I want to reply, but I don't want to write a rushed reply right now.  I need to get back to work.  So I'll try to reply later tonight, when I have time.

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## lilymc

> A prayer is a prayer.


I do want to quickly add I've already stated 2 or 3 times that I never claimed there is a difference between an inner prayer and vocal prayer.   So, at this point acting as if I said that is bit disingenuous.

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## jmdrake

> I do want to quickly add I've already stated 2 or 3 times that I never claimed there is a difference between an inner prayer and vocal prayer.   So, at this point acting as if I said that is bit disingenuous.


Well great!  Glad we agree.  Question.  Were you one of the people that didn't think repentance was necessary for salvation, or was that someone else?  I honestly don't remember.  But I don't repentance as any more of a "work" than prayer.

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## Terry1

> Quick question:
> 
> Is everyone in agreement that a saved person can fall from grace?  I'm guessing not.


St. Paul seems to think so.


Galatians 5:4
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 

He was talking to the Jews who refused to believe that Jesus was the Messiah and remained under the Mosaic law, but it also applies today to anyone who refuses to believe in Jesus.

The way I understand grace is that it's Gods power that draws unbelievers to God and then it's up to them to accept or reject Christ.  The only way to fall is to be shown and brought to a point where one either walks away never to return back to God or one simply rejects Christ all together as the Jews did who refused to come out from under the curse of the Mosaic Law.

Considering John 15:5 and Hebrews 6:4--understanding the one can lose their state of elect and salvation in this life--means that they have also fallen from grace as well.

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## moostraks

> There seems to be some clever rationalizing going on here.... in order to defend the works-based position.    
> 
> I want to reply, but I don't want to write a rushed reply right now.  I need to get back to work.  So I'll try to reply later tonight, when I have time.


Can't speak for anyone else, but I am not attempting to be clever in the derogatory sense you are using the word clever. I told you what my honest view is according to my experience regarding how I interpret what qualifies as a work, so that the faith without works verses are reconciled with the verses from Matthew 5 and what constitutes sin. You see things in a different light. Neither view means one has earned it of their own efforts.

My faith in Love is a gift given of no merit on my part. The obligation is upon the receiver to accept the gift or the gift can be of no value to the recipient.

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## jmdrake

> I consider a 'work' to be *anything that depends on you to do or not do*. According to many Christians, believing in God/Jesus is something that you choose. If that is the case then I see that as exactly the same as salvation by 'works'. A 'work' doesn't have to be a physical action. If salvation truly had nothing to do with works, then your salvation would not be affected by *you* at all.


Well Jesus Himself said:

_John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent._

So if Jesus considered belief to be both a work and a requirement, I'm not sure what the fuss is about.

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## Terry1

> Terry, we've gone over the James verses numerous times.  You never really responded to what some of us have been saying about that, as far as I've seen.
> 
> I'll post this again for you.
> 
> 
> Justification is a pronouncement to clear the guilty. When one is justified, he is declared right before the Lord; he is pardoned and cleared of any violation. there is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus (Rom.8)
> 
> Rom 3:24-25 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed.
> 
> ...



You are still confusing the covenants with one another.  It's up to God to reveal it now--if you allow it.  Peace 

I will reply to this one quote of yours though:




> Lily wrote: Our works justify the believer in the demonstrative sense, not in the procurative sense, meaning good works are not the grounds for our legal justification before God. They justify us before the eyes of man, demonstrating what is alive on the inside.[/B] When James says faith without works is dead, he is warning against a "words only" intellectual ascent to faith. James is not speaking about the theological aspect of justification before God, but the practical aspect before man. God alone looks at the heart but by works man is justified before other men, who can only look at the outward appearance.


After everything you've just said in the above quote to justify what you believe about our good works.  What you can not explain away is James telling you--clearly that "faith alone without our works is dead".  How can dead faith justify Lily?    This is what you are not understanding because you do not understand the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

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## Crashland

> Well Jesus Himself said:
> 
> _John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent._
> 
> So if Jesus considered belief to be both a work and a requirement, I'm not sure what the fuss is about.


Yes, but a 'work of God' is completely different from a work of man. When we refer to 'salvation by works', we are referring to salvation by work of man. If a man's faith is not a work of man but is really a work of God, as indicated by that verse, then I would not consider it to be salvation by works, because the belief would be something that depends on God and is _given_ to you by God, *not* a choice/decision that depends on you. It's just that so many Christians portray it as the latter.

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## jmdrake

> Yes, but a 'work of God' is completely different from a work of man. When we refer to 'salvation by works', we are referring to salvation by work of man. If a man's faith is not a work of man but is really a work of God, as indicated by that verse, then I would not consider it to be salvation by works, because the belief would be something that depends on God and is _given_ to you by God, *not* a choice/decision that depends on you. It's just that so many Christians portray it as the latter.


Ah....and you were *so close*!    Okay.  Remember the parable of the talents?  Each servant was given at least one talent.  Some did something with their talents, some did not.  Just because God gives you something doesn't mean He forces you to do something with it.  But other than that, I agree with your "work of faith/work of man" distinction.  If you're doing penance or going on a crusade or paying tithe or doing anything because some man told you to, even if that man had a really good reason to say that like "It's written in the Bible", that's a work of man.  But if you're doing something because the Spirit prompted you to, that's a work of faith.  In the parable of the sheep and the goats, both did works.  But the sheep didn't realize they were doing the works.  They were doing works of faith.

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## Crashland

> Ah....and you were *so close*!    Okay.  Remember the parable of the talents?  Each servant was given at least one talent.  Some did something with their talents, some did not.  Just because God gives you something doesn't mean He forces you to do something with it.  But other than that, I agree with your "work of faith/work of man" distinction.  If you're doing penance or going on a crusade or paying tithe or doing anything because some man told you to, even if that man had a really good reason to say that like "It's written in the Bible", that's a work of man.  But if you're doing something because the Spirit prompted you to, that's a work of faith.  In the parable of the sheep and the goats, both did works.  But the sheep didn't realize they were doing the works.  They were doing works of faith.


Yeah, I think we're pretty close. We need to talk about what exactly this gift is though, and who has been given it. Is the _ability to have faith_ the gift? And does everybody have it?
Do you think it requires a work of God in order for a man to even have the ability to have true faith? And does God do this for everybody?

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## Deborah K

> Yeah, I think we're pretty close. We need to talk about what exactly this gift is though, and who has been given it. Is the _ability to have faith_ the gift? And does everybody have it?
> Do you think it requires a work of God in order for a man to even have the ability to have true faith? And does God do this for everybody?


Isn't that the crux of the difference between Calvinism and Arminianism?  Calvinists believe God selects certain people to receive his saving grace, and Arminians believe that God offers salvation to everyone, but we have to choose to accept it.

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## Crashland

> Isn't that the crux of the difference between Calvinism and Arminianism?  Calvinists believe God selects certain people to receive his saving grace, and Arminians believe that God offers salvation to everyone, but we have to choose to accept it.


Yeah, I think it is. I guess I would lean away from the Arminian thought because I feel strongly that not everyone has the ability to have belief/faith in Jesus, even if they would have liked to.

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## lilymc

Ok, I still want to reply to a few earlier posts... But right now I just wanted to chime in here to say something about this.... because I noticed it's a conversation that has been going on for a while between Crashland and JM. 




> Yes, but a 'work of God' is completely different from a work of man. When we refer to 'salvation by works', we are referring to salvation by work of man. If a man's faith is not a work of man but is really a work of God, as indicated by that verse, then I would not consider it to be salvation by works, because the belief would be something that is _given_ to you by God, not a decision that depends on you. It's just that so many Christians portray it as the latter.


About that scripture that you and JM are talking about... I was reading some commentaries on it, and many people interpret it in a different way.  Here is what one commentator said, that I think helps make it more clear.

Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" (John 6:28)

What a question! What activity, what work must we do that we might be involved in godly works-involved in the very works of God?

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." (John 6:29)

The question is, "What can we do?" The answer is, "Who should you believe?" The natural thoughts of man are always what can I do? The heart of the kingdom requests belief in the work of Christ. That kind of trust leads to abundant doing. One who says they have faith and yet there are no works has no faith in God, of God, or from God. That is just human religious talk.

Yes, real faith does work. But to work the works of God is entirely dependent on true faith. Is there any special secret to embark on working the labors of heaven? "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." They asked what they could do and Jesus answered, "Trust in and rely on the one the Father has sent into the world." Faith is going to be at the heart of a life of good works, just as faith is at the heart of bearing fruit. Grace is behind both-grace that flows through a humble, trusting heart.
So I don't think this scripture is necessarily about God giving some people the ability to believe  (although I do want to get back to that, after I make this point) but it's about what Jesus wants us to do.

There are true works (the works of God)  and then there are just "works" that people do that are man-centered and not of God.

The true works are pleasing to God, and are genuinely fruitful, because they are led by God and they are done for the right reasons, and are the inevitable "fruit" of a changed nature, of someone who has the Holy Spirit and wants to serve God out of love, gratitude and genuine desire and joy in serving the living God of the universe!

The other type of "works"  are what people do that are not necessarily led by God or what God wants us to be doing.... Observing certain rules or going through the motions (going to church, saying long, showy prayers, rituals, etc) but for the wrong reasons....to try to earn salvation or to appear to be religious, or whatever.  

An important point here that I don't think has been clearly stated yet is that in order to do good works -  *works of God*, one first has to truly believe.  They have to* get saved first*, before doing the works, or else the works are not going to be pleasing to God or genuinely fruitful.

Fruitfulness is not just busy work.  Fruitfulness is the degree to which you do God's will.  I wrote a *blog post* about that, last year, if anyone wants to read it.

So getting back to that passage.  Those guys were asking him, "what can we do to do "the works of God."?   And Jesus basically said, "This is God's assignment, or work for you. That you believe in Him whom He has sent."  

I'm actually really glad this got brought up, because this is something that has been pressing on my heart for days....   It's something I've been wanting to say to the more vocal works-based people here.  Kevin and I kept saying, "you're putting the cart before the horse."  That is what I believe Jesus is saying to those guys.  And this is what I really feel some people here need to hear.

You worry so much about works.  It's works this, works that, works, works works.  But what you don't seem to understand is that first, before you can do true works, the works of God, that are genuinely fruitful and pleasing to God... *you have to come to him first -  apart from works*, and simply believe and trust that HE did what you couldn't do.  He fulfilled the law perfectly.  HE lived a perfect life.  HE paid your debt for you, so you don't have to "work" to earn salvation or to maintain salvation..... Salvation is a gift!  

What Jesus wants  - before you even talk about works or think about works....is *to just believe.*   Not mere belief in God's existence.  Even the demons believe.  But believe, trust and rely on what He says - believe the Gospel -  that you are a sinner, and that there is no amount of "works" you can do to EVER earn your salvation, no person except for Jesus has EVER fulfilled the law perfectly.  So stop thinking it's about you and what you do, and simply come to Jesus and put your FULL faith and trust in what HE did, which paid your price for you.  

Again, a gift that is paid for by the recipient is not a gift.     

So to sum that  up -  if you want to do works for God, if you truly want to do works that are pleasing to God, this is what you have to do first.... This is what Jesus said, in verse 29.

  “This is the work of God: that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” 

Do you see that now?  

Once you believe and genuinely put your faith in Jesus - and not yourself.... THEN you are justified, and become a new creation.  After that, the works will come, the works are the fruit, not the root!

I do want to get back to your point about God giving some people belief.  But this is already too long and I gotta get going right now.  I'm sure I'll be back later though.

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## Deborah K

> Yeah, I think it is. I guess I would lean away from the Arminian thought because I feel strongly that not everyone has the ability to have belief/faith in Jesus, even if they would have liked to.


And so you think that's God's doing?  The reason I can't fathom Calvinist thinking is because I can't fathom an arbitrary Creator.  Why would he create us, just to doom us?  For me, free will has to be a factor because I take John 3:16 literally.  I also believe that anyone can accept the gift of faith.  Have you heard that old saying: There are no atheists in a fox hole?   lol.

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## Crashland

> And so you think that's God's doing?  The reason I can't fathom Calvinist thinking is because I can't fathom an arbitrary Creator.  Why would he create us, just to doom us?  For me, free will has to be a factor because I take John 3:16 literally.  I also believe that anyone can accept the gift of faith.  Have you heard that old saying: There are no atheists in a fox hole?   lol.


I couldn't say if it is God's doing, but regardless of whose doing it is, I do think that some people, many people, do not believe and could not believe even if they wanted to. For many people, not believing in Jesus is involuntary, just like for you, not believing in Zeus as a deity is not something that you could change, even if you wanted to. There is simply no way that you could believe in Zeus, and if you were to try to make yourself "choose to believe" in Zeus, it would be intellectually dishonest and you would still know in your heart that you are lying to yourself, pretending. It is the exact same way for many people, including myself, who do not believe in the Christian God.

With that being assumed, your question would be valid -- why would God create some of us just to doom us? Certainly is one of my own questions.

And yes, I think there is some truth to the saying that there are no atheists in foxholes. If my life were about to end I am pretty sure that I would cry out to God in desperation. I see that desperation as a natural response when a human has a need that cannot be met, which will happen to us all eventually. I think it is sad, but also okay. As an atheist I do not have a problem with this. However as long as I am still able to do it, I would like to have my thoughts based on what I think is true, not governed by desperation or wishful thinking.

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## Beorn

> And so you think that's God's doing?  The reason I can't fathom Calvinist thinking is because I can't fathom an arbitrary Creator.  Why would he create us, just to doom us? .


Yeah, that bothers me, too. But, it's what the Bible teaches and Paul just tells us to deal with it. 




> ESV Romans 9:19-21 You will say to me then, Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will? But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump done vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

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## Deborah K

> Yeah, that bothers me, too. But, it's what the Bible teaches and Paul just tells us to deal with it.


Yes, I know that verse you posted is the go-to verse for Calvinists.  Unfortunately, the rest of the Bible tells us we must choose to believe. Even a few verses away from what you quoted it says:




> God warned them of this in the Scriptures when he said, "I am placing a stone in Jerusalem that makes people stumble, a rock that makes them fall. But _anyone_ who trusts in him will never be disgraced." Romans 9: 33


emphasis on the word, "anyone".

It isn't safe to cherry-pick verses to the exclusion of the rest of the Bible.

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## Crashland

> Ok, I still want to reply to a few earlier posts... But right now I just wanted to chime in here to say something about this.... because I noticed it's a conversation that has been going on for a while between Crashland and JM. 
> 
> 
> 
> About that scripture that you and JM are talking about... I was reading some commentaries on it, and many people interpret it in a different way.  Here is what one commentator said, that I think helps make it more clear.
> 
> Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" (John 6:28)
> 
> What a question! What activity, what work must we do that we might be involved in godly works-involved in the very works of God?
> ...


First of all just wanted to say thanks for the big elaborate response! Wow 
Regarding your point above about faith and works, I completely hear you. What you are saying is that you have to be saved first before God can work through you or before you can do 'works of God'. It's the fruits of the spirit, right? And you can't have the fruits of the spirit without the spirit. Biblically within the Christian framework this makes perfect sense.

We need to differentiate though between a _person_ doing 'works of God', like you were describing above, versus a 'work of God' in which _God_ is the actor. When Jesus said "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.", is _the very fact that you believe_ a 'work of God' in which God is the actor? Or does this depend on you, a man, to believe?





> So getting back to that passage.  Those guys were asking him, "what can we do to do "the works of God."?   And Jesus basically said, "This is God's assignment, or work for you. That you believe in Him whom He has sent."  
> 
> I'm actually really glad this got brought up, because this is something that has been pressing on my heart for days....   It's something I've been wanting to say to the more vocal works-based people here.  Kevin and I kept saying, "you're putting the cart before the horse."  That is what I believe Jesus is saying to those guys.  And this is what I really feel some people here need to hear.
> 
> You worry so much about works.  It's works this, works that, works, works works.  But what you don't seem to understand is that first, before you can do true works, the works of God, that are genuinely fruitful and pleasing to God... *you have to come to him first -  apart from works*, and simply believe and trust that HE did what you couldn't do.  He fulfilled the law perfectly.  HE lived a perfect life.  HE paid your debt for you, so you don't have to "work" to earn salvation or to maintain salvation..... Salvation is a gift!  
> 
> What Jesus wants  - before you even talk about works or think about works....is *to just believe.*   Not mere belief in God's existence.  Even the demons believe.  But believe, trust and rely on what He says - believe the Gospel -  that you are a sinner, and that there is no amount of "works" you can do to EVER earn your salvation, no person except for Jesus has EVER fulfilled the law perfectly.  So stop thinking it's about you and what you do, and simply come to Jesus and put your FULL faith and trust in what HE did, which paid your price for you.  
> 
> Again, a gift that is paid for by the recipient is not a gift.     
> ...


Well first of all, if even the demons know that God exists and yet they still reject God, it would be nice if God were to make all of us humans aware of his existence too, so that we would be able to make an informed decision on whether to accept or reject him.

The big, big question for me here is whether the belief itself - the trusting in Jesus,..etc, is something that is actually available to everyone, whether it is even possible for every person to do this. If you follow what I was just saying to Deborah, I really don't see 'believing' as something that you can just make yourself do or choose to do.

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## Beorn

> Yes, I know that verse you posted is the go-to verse for Calvinists.  Unfortunately, the rest of the Bible tells us we must choose to believe. Even a few verses away from what you quoted it says:
> 
> emphasis on the word, "anyone".
> 
> It isn't safe to cherry-pick verses to the exclusion of the rest of the Bible.


Just be honest with yourself and ask whether you believe what you believe because it's what the bible teaches or because it's what you can "fathom." 

The term "anyone" says nothing about the capacity of the will apart from God. It just means anyone.

----------


## Deborah K

> I couldn't say if it is God's doing, but regardless of whose doing it is, I do think that some people, many people, do not believe and could not believe even if they wanted to. For many people, not believing in Jesus is involuntary, just like for you, not believing in Zeus as a deity is not something that you could change, even if you wanted to. There is simply no way that you could believe in Zeus, and if you were to try to make yourself "choose to believe" in Zeus, it would be intellectually dishonest and you would still know in your heart that you are lying to yourself, pretending. It is the exact same way for many people, including myself, who do not believe in the Christian God.
> 
> With that being assumed, your question would be valid -- why would God create some of us just to doom us? Certainly is one of my own questions.
> 
> And yes, I think there is some truth to the saying that there are no atheists in foxholes. If my life were about to end I am pretty sure that I would cry out to God in desperation. I see that desperation as a natural response when a human has a need that cannot be met, which will happen to us all eventually. I think it is sad, but also okay. As an atheist I do not have a problem with this. However as long as I am still able to do it, I would like to have my thoughts based on what I think is true, not governed by desperation or wishful thinking.


What a fair, thoughtful, and honest response.  On the other side of the coin, there is this consideration for me: I have pondered if I could ever lose my faith, if something tragic were to happen to a loved one.  I am a grandmother of 5 grandchildren and 3 on the way. Every single one of them mean so much to me, I can't even put it into words.  Without using an example, I think I would lose my mind if anyone ever hurt and killed one of those precious beautiful, innocent children.  I hope I wouldn't lose my faith, but I just don't know. I just don't know how the mothers and grandmothers are doing it in the middle east right now.  My heart hurts for them, and I pray daily for them.

----------


## Deborah K

> Just be honest with yourself and ask whether you believe what you believe because it's what the bible teaches or because it's what you can "fathom."


I've read the Bible from start to finish once.  I read it almost every day.  I believe what I believe because of what I've read and studied.  I don't accept that God created each and every one of us with intention of throwing some of us away based on an analogy Paul used.




> The term "anyone" says nothing about the capacity of the will apart from God. It just means anyone.


Where does it say that in the Bible?

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## Crashland

> What a fair, thoughtful, and honest response.  On the other side of the coin, there is this consideration for me: I have pondered if I could ever lose my faith, if something tragic were to happen to a loved one.  I am a grandmother of 5 grandchildren and 3 on the way. Every single one of them mean so much to me, I can't even put it into words.  Without using an example, I think I would lose my mind if anyone ever hurt and killed one of those precious beautiful, innocent children.  I hope I wouldn't lose my faith, but I just don't know. I just don't know how the mothers and grandmothers are doing it in the middle east right now.  My heart hurts for them, and I pray daily for them.


Different people respond in different ways to things like that. I personally know some Christians who have gone through just horrible things like that, and, while they struggled through it, they came out of it with a faith all the more strong, and with a hell of a powerful testimony and so many other people were blessed because of it. Other times though the opposite can happen. I haven't gone through anything like that myself, and it's really hard to imagine what you might do in such a situation. I mean, if I were to experience a tragedy on such a scale, would I be so broken that I would turn to the Christian God, for good? Would I recover somehow and find meaning elsewhere? Or fall into depression and end my own life? I guess you never know. You can just hope for the best and always do what you think is right.

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## Deborah K

> Different people respond in different ways to things like that. I personally know some Christians who have gone through just horrible things like that, and, while they struggled through it, they came out of it with a faith all the more strong, and with a hell of a powerful testimony and so many other people were blessed because of it. Other times though the opposite can happen. I haven't gone through anything like that myself, and it's really hard to imagine what you might do in such a situation. I mean, if I were to experience a tragedy on such a scale, would I be so broken that I would turn to the Christian God, for good? Would I recover somehow and find meaning elsewhere? Or fall into depression and end my own life? I guess you never know. You can just hope for the best and always do what you think is right.


I truly hope I am someone whose faith would deepen, but I think I might start out very angry at God.

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## Beorn

> I've read the Bible from start to finish once.


That's impressive for a Catholic and more than I've done. 

But, my statement was less about familiarity with the bible than about how one reads the bible as in Eisegesis v. Exegesis. I mean Bart Ehrman has read the bible more than both of us, that doesn't make the way he reads the bible right. 

I wouldn't necessarily be so presumptive or make a big deal about this but you were talking about this issue in terms of what you could and couldn't fathom. 

I'm sure you can't fathom the trinity, but that doesn't stop you, me, or any other Christian from believing it.




> I don't accept that God created each and every one of us with intention of throwing some of us away based on an analogy Paul used.


It's not merely an analogy. I brought it it up not just to cherry-pick and shoe-horn my beliefs into the discussion. It deals directly with your objection. More directly than any other section of the bible. If you want to dismiss it and rely on more generic verses that talk about "anybody" or "whosoever" that's fine. 




> Where does it say that in the Bible?


Say what?

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## Kevin007

> Colossians 1:9For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, *10so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously* 12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light...
> 
>       21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, *in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach 23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.*


and? your point is? You just agreed with me.

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## Kevin007

Terry asked Lily; Are these two scriptures saying the very same thing or not?  If not explain why then if you will.

*James 2:*

24 *Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only*.  25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she  had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26For as  the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead  also.


*Romans 3:28

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.*


In James it doesn't mean he was justified by faith PLUS works. He was justified by FAITH Godward and by his works MANWARD. God justified him the moment he believed, but man says "show me the reality of your faith" and the ONLY WAY to do this is by good WORKS.

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## Kevin007

> Lord help me here--I can't not stay away from this with you Lily.  I want you to answer a question here if you please.  No one is playing word games with you.
> 
> Are these two scriptures saying the very same thing or not?  If not explain why then if you will.
> 
> *James 2:*
> 
> 24 *Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only*. 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
> 
> 
> ...



See John 6:28,29 for proper context. And your last sentence makes zero sense. Read it again.

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## lilymc

> First of all just wanted to say thanks for the big elaborate response! Wow 
> Regarding your point above about faith and works, I completely hear you. What you are saying is that you have to be saved first before God can work through you or before you can do 'works of God'. It's the fruits of the spirit, right? And you can't have the fruits of the spirit without the spirit. Biblically within the Christian framework this makes perfect sense.
> 
> We need to differentiate though between a _person_ doing 'works of God', like you were describing above, versus a 'work of God' in which _God_ is the actor. When Jesus said "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.", is _the very fact that you believe_ a 'work of God' in which God is the actor? Or does this depend on you, a man, to believe?


I think that's a very good and interesting question.  I'm not a Calvinist, so I don't believe that God created some people to be "believers" and others to be nonbelievers.

I believe that God reaches out to everyone, in some way or another.  The bible is clear that God doesn't want anyone to perish. (2 Peter 3:9)  

The problem is that there are numerous things that can blind us and create a barrier (so to speak) to God.    This may sound crazy to non-Christians (but you said you were a Christian before, so this probably won't sound crazy to you)    but there are things that people do that are "open doors" to the enemy of God having an influence in our life.  For example, drugs.  A person who regularly partakes in illegal drugs (for the purpose of getting high) is -  whether they realize it or not -  giving spiritual forces of darkness the legal "right" to influence them, which leads them away from God.     There are number of things -  sin, pride, worldliness, greed, even religion can blind people.  Saul of Tarsus is the perfect example of that, but of course he later met Jesus and had one of the most dramatic conversions ever.

I've heard many atheists say things like, "I can't believe. I just don't see any evidence for God."   2 Corinthians 4:4 says that "the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

Does that mean it's hopeless?   No, I don't think so.  I was a nonbeliever for MANY years.  But I do think that when it comes to belief in God, one of the most important things, the thing that makes a HUGE difference is our heart and attitude.

There are different kinds of atheists.  There are those who are extremely prideful, stubborn, bitter, hateful, condescending, always mocking those who believe, and thinking they have all the answers.  I'm sure you've seen people like that before (especially on Youtube)

Then there are unbelievers who do value truth and who are still open to learning new things and are willing to admit that they might be wrong.   

It seems to me that God is far more willing to open the eyes of that second type of unbeliever.    I was a nonbeliever - but I would say I was a "non-theist"  rather than atheist.  As hard as this may be to believe, I never even thought about God or religion.  It was SO far from my life that it wasn't even on my radar.  That's how worldly I used to be.     I was definitely spiritually blind BUT I loved truth, and without even realizing it  I actually loved many of the things that come from God -  justice, goodness, things like that.   I just didn't realize that God is the source of those things.     So, long story short, one day God opened my eyes.    God (who was the furthest thing from my mind at that time) gave me the answer to a question that I had been pondering.  It was a pivotal moment, to say the least.   BUT, I didn't become a Christian right away.  Because I knew that if I were to become a Christian, my whole life would change, and I was a bit scared to immediately jump into something that was so opposite of what my life was like.  So I figured I would look into it, read the bible, etc.

So that initial God encounter moment was God saying, "Here I am.  Standing at the door and knocking."   At that point in my life, I had a choice. I could either respond and put my faith in Jesus.... Or, I could leave the door closed and go back to my life the way it was.

Of course, I ended up coming to Christ.  But I came to Christ about 2 years after that initial moment.  So when I finally did surrender my heart to God, put my faith in Jesus and receive the gift of salvation, that was when I became born again.  (July 9, 2000)

So I guess all of that is to say that in my opinion it is both God and us.    God pursues us and reaches out to us, in different ways.   But we have to be willing to put truth above all else, and to drop the pride and understand that we don't have all the answers, there is so much we DON'T know.       If we choose sin, pride, stubbornness, etc, then it's not God's fault.   I hate to say this, but it's true that some people love sin and being their own boss more than they love truth.




> Well first of all, if even the demons know that God exists and yet they still reject God, it would be nice if God were to make all of us humans aware of his existence too, so that we would be able to make an informed decision on whether to accept or reject him.
> 
> The big, big question for me here is whether the belief itself - the trusting in Jesus,..etc, is something that is actually available to everyone, whether it is even possible for every person to do this. If you follow what I was just saying to Deborah, I really don't see 'believing' as something that you can just make yourself do or choose to do.


Romans 1:20 says that all people, on some level, understand that there is a higher power.   Creation is just one thing.  There are numerous other things that point to God.    But as I said, I think it's important to "check out heart" and attitude, so to speak. 

I do think that there's an element of choice involved, on our part.   I'm not saying that this is you, but I've encountered many atheists who have a "prove it to me!!!!" attitude.  For people like that, no amount of evidence is enough.  And since God hates pride, that type of person is only shooting himself in the foot, because God is most likely not going to open their eyes, if they refuse to see.

Sometimes we have to take a step of faith.  The cool thing, and something that I've learned time and time again.... is that when we take a step of faith, God then gives us MORE of Himself.   I think that principle applies not just to an initial belief in God, but in trusting God in general.

Ok, I didn't mean to write a book here!  Sorry, sometimes I get really wordy.

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## Kevin007

faith is a divine work, not a human work.

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## Kevin007

One day, some people asked Jesus what they  could do to please God: What must we do to do the works God requires?  Jesus immediately points them to faith: The work of God is this: to  believe in the one he has sent (John 6:28-29). So, the question is  about Gods requirements (plural), and Jesus answer is that Gods  requirement (singular) is that you believe in Him.
Read more:  http://www.gotquestions.org/faith-wo...#ixzz3FWsYY0kt

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## lilymc

> One day, some people asked Jesus what they  could do to please God: What must we do to do the works God requires?  Jesus immediately points them to faith: The work of God is this: to  believe in the one he has sent (John 6:28-29). So, the question is  about Gods requirements (plural), and Jesus answer is that Gods  requirement (singular) is that you believe in Him.
> Read more:  http://www.gotquestions.org/faith-wo...#ixzz3FWsYY0kt


That's the exact scripture that JM and Crashland were talking about and that I commented on, on the previous page. 

So can you - in just a few words - state how you interpret that scripture?

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## Kevin007

> That's the exact scripture that JM and Crashland were talking about and that I commented on, on the previous page. 
> 
> So can you - in just a few words - state how you interpret that scripture?


it ties in to my what must I do to be saved verse- Believe on Him (Jesus) and you will be saved. If believing is a work, I believe (no pun intended) it's NOT a work in the sense that we do anything to earn it. I don't think believing is a work, just an act of faith (in the heart/spirit). To me a good work is all man's doing. If people were honest with themselves, they would admit we do not contribute to saving ourselves in any sense- Jesus must get ALL the credit. We cannot take any credit anyway, as we are sinners.

----------


## Crashland

> I think that's a very good and interesting question.  I'm not a Calvinist, so I don't believe that God created some people to be "believers" and others to be nonbelievers.
> 
> I believe that God reaches out to everyone, in some way or another.  The bible is clear that God doesn't want anyone to perish. (2 Peter 3:9)  
> 
> The problem is that there are numerous things that can blind us and create a barrier (so to speak) to God.    This may sound crazy to non-Christians (but you said you were a Christian before, so this probably won't sound crazy to you)    but there are things that people do that are "open doors" to the enemy of God having an influence in our life.  For example, drugs.  A person who regularly partakes in illegal drugs (for the purpose of getting high) is -  whether they realize it or not -  giving spiritual forces of darkness the legal "right" to influence them, which leads them away from God.     There are number of things -  sin, pride, worldliness, greed, even religion can blind people.  Saul of Tarsus is the perfect example of that, but of course he later met Jesus and had one of the most dramatic conversions ever.


I agree, there are a lot of reasons why people can be blinded to any truth. And its always the most difficult to see those if they apply to yourself. Its amazing how powerful distractions are, and what the mind can do when faced with the possibility of a truth that might be unpleasant, unwanted or scary.




> I've heard many atheists say things like, "I can't believe. I just don't see any evidence for God."   2 Corinthians 4:4 says that "the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."
> 
> Does that mean it's hopeless?   No, I don't think so.  I was a nonbeliever for MANY years.  But I do think that when it comes to belief in God, one of the most important things, the thing that makes a HUGE difference is our heart and attitude.


When it comes to belief in pretty much any other truth too. I agree.




> There are different kinds of atheists.  There are those who are extremely prideful, stubborn, bitter, hateful, condescending, always mocking those who believe, and thinking they have all the answers.  I'm sure you've seen people like that before (especially on Youtube)
> 
> Then there are unbelievers who do value truth and who are still open to learning new things and are willing to admit that they might be wrong.


There are some good atheists on YouTube...I think 
But again, I agree. A lot of times I have noticed, the substance of the arguments for both groups tend to be more or less the same. But the former category are people who want the conversation to end, and the latter category are people who want the conversation to continue. As far apart as we are in our viewpoints, when I have a conversation with a theist, I feel like the goal of the whole conversation should be to actually come to an agreement! Rarely happens, but there is no hope at all if you don't respect the other person AND be open to actually changing your mind. Even if an agreement is not reached, if a humble approach is taken then hopefully people will at least increase their understanding of why the other person believes what they do.




> It seems to me that God is far more willing to open the eyes of that second type of unbeliever.    I was a nonbeliever - but I would say I was a "non-theist"  rather than atheist.  As hard as this may be to believe, I never even thought about God or religion.  It was SO far from my life that it wasn't even on my radar.  That's how worldly I used to be.     I was definitely spiritually blind BUT I loved truth, and without even realizing it  I actually loved many of the things that come from God -  justice, goodness, things like that.   I just didn't realize that God is the source of those things.     So, long story short, one day God opened my eyes.    God (who was the furthest thing from my mind at that time) gave me the answer to a question that I had been pondering.  It was a pivotal moment, to say the least.   BUT, I didn't become a Christian right away.  Because I knew that if I were to become a Christian, my whole life would change, and I was a bit scared to immediately jump into something that was so opposite of what my life was like.  So I figured I would look into it, read the bible, etc.
> 
> So that initial God encounter moment was God saying, "Here I am.  Standing at the door and knocking."   At that point in my life, I had a choice. I could either respond and put my faith in Jesus.... Or, I could leave the door closed and go back to my life the way it was.
> 
> Of course, I ended up coming to Christ.  But I came to Christ about 2 years after that initial moment.  So when I finally did surrender my heart to God, put my faith in Jesus and receive the gift of salvation, that was when I became born again.  (July 9, 2000)


Cool. Thanks for sharing your experience. I can relate to some of those feelings, earlier in my life.




> So I guess all of that is to say that in my opinion it is both God and us.    God pursues us and reaches out to us, in different ways.   But we have to be willing to put truth above all else, and to drop the pride and understand that we don't have all the answers, there is so much we DON'T know.       If we choose sin, pride, stubbornness, etc, then it's not God's fault.   I hate to say this, but it's true that some people love sin and being their own boss more than they love truth.


Sounds reasonable enough.




> Romans 1:20 says that all people, on some level, understand that there is a higher power.   Creation is just one thing.  There are numerous other things that point to God.    But as I said, I think it's important to "check out heart" and attitude, so to speak. 
> 
> I do think that there's an element of choice involved, on our part.   I'm not saying that this is you, but I've encountered many atheists who have a "prove it to me!!!!" attitude.  For people like that, no amount of evidence is enough.  And since God hates pride, that type of person is only shooting himself in the foot, because God is most likely not going to open their eyes, if they refuse to see.
> 
> Sometimes we have to take a step of faith.  The cool thing, and something that I've learned time and time again.... is that when we take a step of faith, God then gives us MORE of Himself.   I think that principle applies not just to an initial belief in God, but in trusting God in general.


I don't think I agree with Romans 1:20. I do realize that there are a great number of reasons why people believe in God (different people will emphasize different reasons), but I do not think that everyone deep down realizes this. Either (1) we're too dense to realize it, or (2) we don't find the same things compelling that others find compelling, or (3) there's some kind of thing getting in the way, like the pride you are mentioning.

There would be nothing that could be done about (1). Can't ever rule out (3) but you can only do your best to try and make that as much of a non factor as possible by keeping an open-minded attitude. (2) is the most likely explanation to me, because we see this occur in many other areas as well, not just religion.

In terms of the step of faith, I'm not going to come here and say to you that I've already tried everything - that would be presumptuous. But I can say that my experience with that up to this point at least, does not match with your experience. My experience would lead me to think that if God exists, he does not always draw near to seekers. I understand this is contrary to your own experience and also the claims of the Bible in several places - I'm just sharing how it had gone for me, at least until this point.




> Ok, I didn't mean to write a book here!  Sorry, sometimes I get really wordy.


As do I.

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## moostraks

> no one can live in a way pleasing to God except by accepting Jesus as our Savior. Our obedience doesn't affect our salvation, only our fellowship.





> Colossians 1:9For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, *10so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously* 12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light...
> 
>       21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, *in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach 23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.*





> and? your point is? You just agreed with me.


Did I agree with you? Interesting. I guess you are making an assumption that what you say agrees with my take on these verses?  Maybe this will help:

John 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Fathers glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

Remain or be as a dead branch thrown into the fire and burned. Walk in a manner pleasing to the Lord if you indeed continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach.

No. I disagree with you. I believe obedience is a necessity. Without fellowship we cannot increase in the knowledge  necessary to remain as it is by His strength that we bear fruit. Apart from Him we can do nothing. We must walk by the Spirit, so that we do not gratify the desires of the flesh. (Galatians 5:16) If we sin deliberately after having the knowledge there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but the fearful expectation of judgement. (Hebrews 10)

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## Deborah K

> That's impressive for a Catholic and more than I've done.


I haven't practiced Catholicism in decades.




> But, my statement was less about familiarity with the bible than about how one reads the bible as in Eisegesis v. Exegesis. I mean Bart Ehrman has read the bible more than both of us, that doesn't make the way he reads the bible right.


Are you implying that you read the Bible "right" and I don't?




> I wouldn't necessarily be so presumptive or make a big deal about this but you were talking about this issue in terms of what you could and couldn't fathom.


Based on my reading and study of the Bible, the God of the Bible (when taken in its entirety and not cherry-picked) doesn't randomly create us just to doom us to Hell.




> I'm sure you can't fathom the trinity, but that doesn't stop you, me, or any other Christian from believing it.


You are very presumptive.  I have no problem "fathoming" the trinity.  I liken it to H2O; it can on take several forms (water, ice, steam) and still be H2O.




> It's not merely an analogy. I brought it it up not just to cherry-pick and shoe-horn my beliefs into the discussion. It deals directly with your objection. More directly than any other section of the bible. If you want to dismiss it and rely on more generic verses that talk about "anybody" or "whosoever" that's fine.


Again, I believe it is unsafe for people to build a belief system around carefully chosen verses in the Bible to the exclusion of the rest of it.  The Bible needs to be taken in its entirety.  It reminds me of the story of the blind men and the elephant who were told to touch various parts of an elephant and then describe what they touched. Each one, feeling a different part, insists that he has the proper perspective of what the animal is.




> Say what


You came to a conclusion about the proper meaning of the word "anybody", and I'd like to know if your conclusion is Biblical.  You stated this:




> Just be honest with yourself and ask whether you believe what you believe because it's what the bible teaches or because it's what you can "fathom." 
> 
> The term "anyone" says nothing about the capacity of the will apart from God. It just means anyone.

----------


## jmdrake

> it ties in to my what must I do to be saved verse- Believe on Him (Jesus) and you will be saved. If believing is a work, I believe (no pun intended) it's NOT a work in the sense that we do anything to earn it. I don't think believing is a work, just an act of faith (in the heart/spirit). *To me a good work is all man's doing.* If people were honest with themselves, they would admit we do not contribute to saving ourselves in any sense- Jesus must get ALL the credit. We cannot take any credit anyway, as we are sinners.


So let me get this straight.  You believe that the good works James talks about are "all man's doing"?   *sigh*

_Matthew 5:16King James Version (KJV)

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven._

All good works that men do ultimately come from God and glorify God.  

As for "contributing to saving ourselves", sure Jesus gets all the credit for salvation.  But man gets all the blame.  This is the deal.  Faith is belief that is so strong that it produces work.  If I'm in a burning building and you tell me to jump and you'll catch me and I don't jump, it's either because I don't believe the fire will kill me or I don't believe you'll catch me or I don't believe my life is worth living.  That fact that I don't "make the leap" shows the state of my "faith".  Now if I leap and I'm saved by you catching me, do I get any of the "credit" for that?  Really, when we see examples of rescues I don't typically see the person being rescued getting "credit" for following the instructions of the rescuer.  That's doubly true if the person being rescued caused the mess to begin with.  You're piloting a boat into iceberg waters against the recommendation of the Coast Guard.  You hit an iceberg.  You're sinking.  The Coast Guard sends out a helicopter which drops a harness and tells you "put the harness on".  You do it and you are rescued.  Nobody would give you any "credit" for that.  No sane person anyway.

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## jmdrake

> Ah....and you were *so close*!    Okay.  Remember the parable of the talents?  Each servant was given at least one talent.  Some did something with their talents, some did not.  Just because God gives you something doesn't mean He forces you to do something with it.  But other than that, I agree with your "work of faith/work of man" distinction.  If you're doing penance or going on a crusade or paying tithe or doing anything because some man told you to, even if that man had a really good reason to say that like "It's written in the Bible", that's a work of man.  But if you're doing something because the Spirit prompted you to, that's a work of faith.  In the parable of the sheep and the goats, both did works.  But the sheep didn't realize they were doing the works.  They were doing works of faith.


Hello Lily,

I quoted myself in replying to you because I saw that you replied to "the conversation between Crashland an JM" while leaving out probably the most important thing that I said.  Anyway, good commentary.  I will say to you what I said to Crashland.  You are *so* close.  Yes, belief precedes works.  Belief also precedes faith.  Do you understand the difference between belief and faith?  James spend so much time on this.  Basically faith is a belief that produces works.  That's it.  It's going beyond belief into trust.  I mentioned to Crashland the parable of the talents.  What was the sin of the servant that hid his talent?  It wasn't that he didn't believe in his Lord.  Clearly he believed and was afraid.  He was so afraid that he buried his talent.  It's not even that he didn't do any work.  Taking a shovel and digging a hole is work.  I've dug enough holes in my day to know that.    He didn't trust his Lord to do what he *knew* his Lord wanted him to do.

Matthew 25
_ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours. 26 But his master answered him, You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth._

Belief is the first step in the Christian journey.  The Holy Spirit lays out each additional step one by one.



> Ok, I still want to reply to a few earlier posts... But right now I just wanted to chime in here to say something about this.... because I noticed it's a conversation that has been going on for a while between Crashland and JM. 
> 
> 
> 
> About that scripture that you and JM are talking about... I was reading some commentaries on it, and many people interpret it in a different way.  Here is what one commentator said, that I think helps make it more clear.
> 
> Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" (John 6:28)
> 
> What a question! What activity, what work must we do that we might be involved in godly works-involved in the very works of God?
> ...

----------


## Beorn

> You are very presumptive.  I have no problem "fathoming" the trinity.  I liken it to H2O; it can on take several forms (water, ice, steam) and still be H2O.


If with all of your biblical study you say something like this about the trinity then it's clearly not worth arguing with you.

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## Terry1

> See John 6:28,29 for proper context. And your last sentence makes zero sense. Read it again.


I knew you had a reading comp problem.  What did I say in that sentence here:




> This then reveals to you that James and Paul are saying the exact same thing--that we are justified by faith because faith without our good works is dead being alone.


We're justified by faith because *faith without our good words is dead*.  Meaning that the only way faith can be alive and work is by doing those good works that gives evidence of that same faith--otherwise its dead.  How can dead faith justify anyone then without our works to back up what it is that we believe?  

I really don't expect you to grasp this, but I have this tendency to not give up on people so easily as others might.

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## Beorn

> How can dead faith justify anyone then without our works to back up what it is that we believe?


Ask the thief on the cross.

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## Terry1

> If with all of your biblical study you say something like this about the trinity then it's clearly not worth arguing with you.


I understood exactly what Deb meant.  She's basically saying that she has no problem believing that the trinity is God in three persons.  What's so wrong about that--I believe the same thing.

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## Deborah K

> If with all of your biblical study you say something like this about the trinity then it's clearly not worth arguing with you.


Really?  Okay, so you'll accept analogies from some people, but not others?  It's an analogy.  Father, Son, Holy Ghost, all one, yet all individual.  I didn't know I needed to connect the dots for you.

----------


## Terry1

> Ask the thief on the cross.


Was not their confession of belief "a good work"?  Do you consider confession and belief nothing at all then?  Confession is faith in action as in acting upon something.  Obviously they couldn't do much more being nailed to crosses, but confess and that was enough in their case Jesus knowing their hearts.  That same analogy doesn't apply to those of us who are called to a purpose who are not nailed to crosses.  If all we did was simply said we believed and did nothing in response to that same confession of belief--there wouldn't be too many good things being done by those listening to the Holy Spirit and doing them in obedience.  We're not nailed to crosses are we.

What did James tell you again along with faith alone is dead without works?


James 2:
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

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## Beorn

> I understood exactly what Deb meant.  She's basically saying that she has no problem believing that the trinity is God in three persons.  What's so wrong about that--I believe the same thing.


Did you understand the point I was making to begin with?
Do you understand why I would take issue with what she said given the context?





> Really?  Okay, so you'll accept analogies from some people, but not others?  It's an analogy.  Father, Son, Holy Ghost, all one, yet all individual.  I didn't know I needed to connect the dots for you.


One can make analogies about certain aspects of God. 
One cannot analogize the trinity. There is nothing like the trinity. Not water. Not an egg. Not anything. Those things might illustrate one or two aspects of the trinity, but the totality of the trinity is far more incomprehensible. 
This is all being said with the understanding that we can (and must) believe certain things about the trinity especially as laid out in the nicene creed.

I wouldn't necessarily be so picky about this, but this line of conversation started with me talking about the unfathomable nature of the trinity and you responding with a simplistic analogy.

----------


## Deborah K

> Did you understand the point I was making to begin with?
> Do you understand why I would take issue with what she said given the context?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One can make analogies about certain aspects of God. 
> One cannot analogize the trinity. There is nothing like the trinity. Not water. Not an egg. Not anything. Those things might illustrate one or two aspects of the trinity, but the totality of the trinity is far more incomprehensible. 
> This is all being said with the understanding that we can (and must) believe certain things about the trinity especially as laid out in the nicene creed.
> ...


You presumed I couldn't "fathom" the trinity.  I answered that I can.  And I explained how with an analogy.  You are now claiming that no one is allowed to analyze the trinity.  Is that Biblical?   Or just another personal opinion.

----------


## Beorn

> You presumed I couldn't "fathom" the trinity. I answered that I can.  And I explained how with an analogy. You are now claiming that no one is allowed to analyze the trinity.  Is that Biblical?   Or just another personal opinion.


Oh, boy. I'm done here.

----------


## Deborah K

> Oh, boy. I'm done here.


You tried to equate my inability to "fathom" an arbitrary God with my presumed inability to "fathom" the trinity.  All I did was try to clarify my belief for you.

It seems that you are sensitive about the trinity.  I'm not trying to diminish the importance of it, just trying to get across to you that, in my mind, it makes perfect sense that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one and the same, and yet individual, based on Biblical teachings _and_ empirical teachings.  I think it's a great analogy, sorry if it offends you.

----------


## Terry1

> You tried to equate my inability to "fathom" an arbitrary God with my presumed inability to "fathom" the trinity.  All I did was try to clarify my belief for you.
> 
> It seems that you are sensitive about the trinity.  I'm not trying to diminish the importance of it, just trying to get across to you that, in my mind, it makes perfect sense that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one and the same, and yet individual, based on Biblical teachings _and_ empirical teachings.  I think it's a great analogy, sorry if it offends you.


Really and why would that offend anyone anyway, what you said was true.

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## heavenlyboy34

> You tried to equate my inability to "fathom" an arbitrary God with my presumed inability to "fathom" the trinity.  All I did was try to clarify my belief for you.
> 
> It seems that you are sensitive about the trinity.*  I'm not trying to diminish the importance of it, just trying to get across to you that, in my mind, it makes perfect sense that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one and the same, and yet individual, based on Biblical teachings and empirical teachings.  I think it's a great analogy, sorry if it offends you*.


The Nicene Creed expresses this in the best way I've seen so far:


> We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of  heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one  Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the  Father before all ages. Light of Light; true God of true God; begotten,  not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made;  who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was  incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He  was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was  buried. And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;  and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and  He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; whose  Kingdom shall have no end.And [we believe] in the Holy Spirit,  the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father; who with the  Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by  the prophets. In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge  one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of  the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

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## Beorn

> The Nicene Creed expresses this in the best way I've seen so far:


... Which is why I referenced it.

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## Deborah K

> The Nicene Creed expresses this in the best way I've seen so far:


Agreed.  And, it's all Biblical.

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## acptulsa

> Oh, boy. I'm done here.


To a turn.  Roasted well.  Cooked of goose.

We can't understand the Trinity and aren't allowed to discuss it, but anyone who says God in Three Beings is just one God needs to be burned at the stake (thank god for Tomahawks--stakes are no longer required) even though the first three Commandments tell us there is only One True God and we're damned if we don't believe it.  And no doubt Gunny's explanation that God is God's head, Jesus is God's hands and the Holy Spirit is God's heart, thus showing the complexity of this One (and only One) Unfathomable Being is somehow sacrilegious to somebody and no reason to stop persecuting others despite our grand Christian love.

If only we were all smart enough to realize that not a single one of us is smart enough to competently judge people over their beliefs, what a far more peaceful world this would be.




> When you believe in things you don't understand, that's superstition.--Stevie Wonder


We're told not to judge, and we know we're not competent to judge, and we don't understand the issues we're judging, and if we condemn others we're displaying a lack of faith in God's ability to deal with them.  Yet some do this crap anyway, and deny that the devil is the only one to profit from it.  Makes no sense.  At all.





> "I have sometimes wondered if the preachers themselves have not something to do with this.  You hear or read a sermon nowadays, and the biggest part of it is taken up by knocking or trying to prove the falseness of some other denomination.  They say that the Catholics are damned, that the Jews' religion is all wrong, or that the Christian Scientists are a fake, or that the Protestants are all out of step.
> 
> "Now, just suppose, for a change they preach to you about the Lord and not about the other fellow's church, for every man's religion is good.  There is none of it bad.  We are all trying to arrive at the same place according to our own conscience and teachings.  It don't matter which road you take."--_Will Rogers 1923_


Oh, and in response to the OP--can't fill in the blank for you, Mr. Drake.  I don't know if I'll be judged a wolf or a sheep.  

And I sincerely doubt anyone else does, either.  But I don't have any 'reading comprehension issues' with Matthew 25, where Jesus indicates that a whole lot of people are going to be surprised (and argumentative) on the Judgement Day...

This argument has been going on for how many centuries?  And has it ever been stirred up by anyone with a lick of good sense?  Ever?  One can have true, redeeming faith in Jesus the Teacher and still ignore His every command?  Works are born of faith, are part and parcel of faith, yet someone can have one without the other?  Really?  Well, maybe.  I've seen church groups roll up across from the homeless shelter on Sunday morning and hand out box lunches as if by rote, playing on Facebook all the while.  So, maybe.

I guess maybe the fact that everyone seems surprised on the Judgement Day is what we need to take away from Jesus' description of what will happen then.  Everyone asks basically the same question, but it sure sounds different.  The sheep say, 'Lord, when did we see you..?' as though helping their fellow humans is, or has become, so second-nature to them that they don't even remember doing it.  The goats, meanwhile, are all about, 'When did we see _You?!_  Why didn't You _tell_ us it was You?!  You have to _know_ we'd have bent over backwards for You if only we had _known!_  This smells of entrapment!  It's unconstitutional!  Where's my lawyer...?'

Works _or_ faith?  I get so frustrated with these centuries-long arguments because I can't tell where the one ends and the other begins.  Someone explain _that_ to me.

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## Beorn

People here have some serious reading comprehension issues.

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## jmdrake

> You tried to equate my inability to "fathom" an arbitrary God with my presumed inability to "fathom" the trinity.  All I did was try to clarify my belief for you.
> 
> It seems that you are sensitive about the trinity.  I'm not trying to diminish the importance of it, just trying to get across to you that, in my mind, it makes perfect sense that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one and the same, and yet individual, based on Biblical teachings _and_ empirical teachings.  I think it's a great analogy, sorry if it offends you.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Deborah K again.

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## acptulsa

> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Deborah K again.


It's an honor to cover for you.

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## Deborah K

Wow, thanks guys.

----------


## Terry1

> People here have some serious reading comprehension issues.



Maybe it's because we weren't looking at proper syntax, but rather we just kind of knew what she meant.   Heaven forbid any of us go to hell for improper syntax--we'd all be doomed.

BTW, aren't you one of the reformed doctrine believers in here.  I didn't want to say "Calvinists"--I know how you guys hate that.

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## Beorn

Just in general:





> Wow, thanks guys.


They're not helping you.
Really.
They're not.

Real friends correct each other. They don't just circle the wagons. 

Let's review what happened here:

I used the doctrine of the trinity as an example of a doctrine that is full of incomprehensible mysteries.

You claimed the trinity is easy to understand and utilized a simplistic analogy.

I expanded on my point and explained why there are limits to analogies and why they shouldn't be used for the totality of the trinity. I then gave the caveat that there are still plenty of things we must believe about the trinity that are contained in the nicene creed.

You misunderstood and/or misrepresented what I was clearly saying along with several other people accusing me of saying things that I never said. You claimed I was against analyzing the trinity even though it's pretty absurd to say that when I'm referencing the nicene creed.

***

If that's a misrepresentation of what happened then feel free to correct it.

As it stands our positions seem to be:

Me: the trinity is an enigma that we will never (at least in this life) fully fathom, but we can (and must) believe certain things about it as is outlined in the nicene creed.

You: A simple analogy allows me to fathom the trinity. 


AGAIN: I wouldn't necessarily pick on such a statement, but I was already making the point that the trinity is enigmatic to the human mind and Deb was trying to dismiss that point.

It's not a matter of me misunderstanding her. It's her improperly dismissing my point.
If you want to differentiate the doctrine of God's sovereignty from the doctrine of the trinity then that's fine.
But, you don't do it by claiming that the trinity is easy to grasp. 

I would be supremely surprised if TER or heavenlyboy would disagree with anything I have said (though I'm sure they could provide plenty of extra commentary and various caveats). Frankly I'm surprised Terry is arguing with me as an emphasis on the mystic side of things seems to fit right into the EO. On that I could be mistaken.

----------


## Beorn

> Maybe it's because we weren't looking at proper syntax, but rather we just kind of knew what she meant.   Heaven forbid any of us go to hell for improper syntax--we'd all be doomed.


It had nothing to do with syntax. She was improperly dismissing my point. 




> BTW, aren't you one of the reformed doctrine believers in here.  I didn't want to say "Calvinists"--I know how you guys hate that.


Sigh.

You really should cleanse your mind of everything sola Fide/ aqua Buddha ever said. He was/is(?) a heretic who's views did not represent the views of 99.9999999% of reformed folk and Calvinists.

----------


## moostraks

> Just in general:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They're not helping you.
> Really.
> They're not.
> 
> ...


I got what you were saying. I think people have just come to a point here where they argue past one another and assume the worst. (myself included) it is why so many folks avoid this subsection like it's the plague. I'm beginning to think it is the spiritual plague. I gathered she felt you were dismissing her ability to comprehend any aspect and you were likely speaking, as you have clarified here, otherwise. People get defensive when they are frequently ridiculed and some folks go out of their way here to pick on a select few repetitively.

----------


## Beorn

> To a turn.  Roasted well.  Cooked of goose.
> 
> We can't understand the Trinity and aren't allowed to discuss it, but anyone who says God in Three Beings is just one God needs to be burned at the stake (thank god for Tomahawks--stakes are no longer required) even though the first three Commandments tell us there is only One True God and we're damned if we don't believe it.  And no doubt Gunny's explanation that God is God's head, Jesus is God's hands and the Holy Spirit is God's heart, thus showing the complexity of this One (and only One) Unfathomable Being is somehow sacrilegious to somebody and no reason to stop persecuting others despite our grand Christian love.
> 
> If only we were all smart enough to realize that not a single one of us is smart enough to competently judge people over their beliefs, what a far more peaceful world this would be.
> 
> 
> 
> We're told not to judge, and we know we're not competent to judge, and we don't understand the issues we're judging, and if we condemn others we're displaying a lack of faith in God's ability to deal with them.  Yet some do this crap anyway, and deny that the devil is the only one to profit from it.  Makes no sense.  At all.



What's really amazing about all of this is that you write it without a hint of irony.

----------


## Beorn

> I got what you were saying. I think people have just come to a point here where they argue past one another and assume the worst. (myself included) it is why so many folks avoid this subsection like it's the plague. I'm beginning to think it is the spiritual plague. I gathered she felt you were dismissing her ability to comprehend any aspect and you were likely speaking, as you have clarified here, otherwise. People get defensive when they are frequently ridiculed and some folks go out of their way here to pick on a select few repetitively.


Thanks.
I thought I was taking crazy pills.

There's a reason why I hadn't bothered to visit here for months.
Grant it, I do my part to add to the harshness and mocking tone, but I also try to concede fair points and avoid straw men.

----------


## Deborah K

> Just in general:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They're not helping you.
> Really.
> They're not.
> 
> ...


At this point it appears to me that you feel you need to win the argument.  I can't make you understand where I was coming from, so if you're hell bent on finding something wrong with what I've written, you'll find it.  It doesn't affect me one way or another how you feel or think about my belief system.  I'm okay with my relationship with the Lord.  I hope you feel the same too.

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## acptulsa

Lord save us from the 'do it my way or God will send you down the highway' brigade...

I don't know how to make mincemeat pie.  But I have considerable faith that it can be divided into three portions.  Am I a philistine because I don't know how to make it, or because I have the temerity to think I can cut something I can't bake into three pieces?

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## Deborah K

> I got what you were saying. I think people have just come to a point here where they argue past one another and assume the worst. (myself included) it is why so many folks avoid this subsection like it's the plague. I'm beginning to think it is the spiritual plague. I gathered she felt you were dismissing her ability to comprehend any aspect and you were likely speaking, as you have clarified here, otherwise. People get defensive when they are frequently ridiculed and some folks go out of their way here to pick on a select few repetitively.


If you go back to the beginning of where he first engaged me (if you are so inclined, lol), you'll note that he suggests I be "honest" with myself, assumes I can't fathom the trinity, assumes I don't take my cues from the Bible, assumes I don't understand what I read from the Bible, and on and on.  Never once attempted to find common ground, just wanted to argue for the sake of argument I guess.  It just gets old after a while, and not worth the time to refute.

----------


## moostraks

> If you go back to the beginning of where he first engaged me (if you are so inclined, lol), you'll note that he suggests I be "honest" with myself, assumes I can't fathom the trinity, assumes I don't take my cues from the Bible, assumes I don't understand what I read from the Bible, and on and on.  Never once attempted to find common ground, just wanted to argue for the sake of argument I guess.  It just gets old after a while, and not worth the time to refute.


I think it came across snippy, but that he was angling after a broader argument. There is too large a chasm for conversation between groups here it seems. Too much water under the bridge on some of these subjects. I likely should have just kept my mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it.

----------


## moostraks

> Thanks.
> I thought I was taking crazy pills.
> 
> There's a reason why I hadn't bothered to visit here for months.
> Grant it, I do my part to add to the harshness and mocking tone, but I also try to concede fair points and avoid straw men.


I think your tone can be gruff. Iirc I have barked at you before myself., because  I was defensive over something I perceived in a certain manner as being a dig . Since you infrequently post in here I think it is likely something will get lost in translation. I've been the chew toy before so I can sort of see how this was falling apart.

ETA I think on the rare occasion there hasn't been a dog fight going on at the time, I have appreciated what you brought to the table irrespective of the fact we see things from differing viewpoints.

----------


## Deborah K

> Lord save us from the 'do it my way or God will send you down the highway' brigade...


Amen to that, brother.




> I don't know how to make mincemeat pie.  But I have considerable faith that it can be divided into three portions.  Am I a philistine because I don't know how to make it, or because I have the temerity to think I can cut something I can't bake into three pieces?


Is this a reference to the trinity?  This isn't an analogy is it, because the only analogies permitted are the ones used in the Bible, lest you be labeled "improperly dismissive".  

Okay, I'll stop now.  lol.

----------


## Deborah K

> I think it came across snippy, but that he was angling after a broader argument. There is too large a chasm for conversation between groups here it seems. Too much water under the bridge on some of these subjects. I likely should have just kept my mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it.


No, it's okay.  I'm interested in your opinions about things.

----------


## moostraks

> No, it's okay.  I'm interested in your opinions about things.


 thanks!

----------


## Terry1

> Just in general:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They're not helping you.
> Really.
> They're not.
> 
> ...


Well, I look at it this way, in our human state of being, we will always see through that glass darkly in this life, but then--more is given to those who have greater faith too.  So, we're all limited to some degree regarding our understanding of the Father--The Son and the Holy Spirit.  We know they exist, we also know they each have a specific place and purpose.  We know that they all come from God being the Father.  We know that Jesus Christ is the Son and that He left His Holy Spirit here as His witness.

Beyond that--how much more can anyone dissect what is called the Holy Trinity, which seems apropos considering their unity in spirit and God.  I think that Deb was pretty much reiterating the same thing with what she said.  I don't believe she was attempting to minimalize the emphasis you placed on the mysteries of the Holy Trinity or diminish the meaning of it either.  

Were you upset because you thought she more or less blew you off with a short answer?   How would that translate into a reading comprehension problem.  Deb is a pretty smart lady.  There's only a few in here I'd call just plain dense, thick or dumb, but hey--that would just be my opinion too.

----------


## Terry1

> No, it's okay.  I'm interested in your opinions about things.


Me too--that goes for both of you.  I'm actually very happy that you and moos are both giving your opinions and I love reading them myself.

----------


## Deborah K

> Me too--that goes for both of you.  I'm actually very happy that you and moos are both giving your opinions and I love reading them myself.


Thank you, Terry.  Likewise.  I learn from you and the others.  Even the ones with whom I don't always agree.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Thank you, Terry.  Likewise.  I learn from you and the others.  Even the ones with whom I don't always agree.


+1 ~hugs~ for you and everyone else in here.

----------


## moostraks

> +1 ~hugs~ for you and everyone else in here.


Same from this end. Group hug? 

Peace on the path to all here no matter how contrary you or I may be on an issue

----------


## RJB

A tepid hug from someone who hates hugging but is trying to be more loving to friends instead of hiding behind sarcasm to mask his feelings...

----------

