# Lifestyles & Discussion > Personal Security & Defense >  Need help with rifle selection...

## crushingstep7

Hey everyone,

I'm pretty broke, being a college student and all - but this is important to me so I'm willing to throw down a good amount (up to $2,000?)

I'm getting closer and closer.  Problem is, I don't know what would best suit my needs.


Here's what I'm thinking:

.308 for punch
Reliability (no jamming, malfunctions, etc.)
Accuracy, but at the same time something I can use in closer situations (say, inside my house)

What are your suggestions?  I've been looking at M1A's, but I don't know how I feel about mass produced stuff... on the same token, is it worth the extra penny to get a 'speciality' rifle, so to speak?  Such as LBR, Fulton, Armscorps...

Does anyone know of a better rifle (FOR MY NEEDS lol) than the M1A?
Pros... cons?


Thanks!

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## Pericles

Not sure if you are upstate, but first order of business is to check laws on what you can buy in terms of if any so called assault weapons are banned there.

Assuming the path is clear to buy what you want, the .308 weapons of choice would probably be the AR10 or M1A. Magazines for both are relatively expensive. The choice of .308 in my view is really one for longer range (over 300 meters) shooting.

The other logical choice in my view is the semi versions of the M16A4 or M4. This means 5.56 and is more suitable for engaging mulitiple targets as you are outnumbered.

The key factor for you operating as an individual is how close do you think the bad guys can get before you can do something about it.

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## GunnyFreedom

Been keeping this open since it was posted last night to respond, but I have to go on a job in a few minutes.  Lots of input.  Would like to know more about circumstance, details etc.  If you specifically want PUNCH then consider an M1 Garand also.  I love love love the AR10, but Peri is right, if you are only looking under 300yds, the AR15 platform in 5.56 is a better choice, not only for ammo cap, but likewise for repair and cost of mags...and if you need penetration you can always fire carbide core rounds.  I already have an AR15, only reason I haven't gotten an AR10 is because I'm hoping (probably in vain) for something similar to show up in .30-'06.  If I'm going for PUNCH, then I don't want to half-way it.  I'll probably end up with an M1 Garand though, if/when I can afford it.

One thing I don't necessarily agree with Peri on is the M4 (shortie) platform.  About the ONLY use for it is an in-vehicle or house-clearing platform.  The short barrel really makes the round way too underpowered beyond 250 300 yds unless you step up to the 77/75 grain rounds, which are awful expensive unless you reload.  Your 62 gr from an M4 can get caught in heavy CLOTHING at 500 yds 

The full size barrel has a significantly higher muzzle velocity, and thus a much much longer lethal range than the M4 barrel.  So unless you are primarily focused on working from within a vehicle or clearing a house, I'd definitely stick with the longer barrel.

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## Pennsylvania

> Does anyone know of a better rifle (FOR MY NEEDS lol) than the M1A?


Not for what you've listed.




> Pros... cons?


Additional Pros
1. Dual-functionality as a hunting rifle if you don't own one already. (Large game that is)
2. SA Customer Support (if you go with a new one)
3. You don't have to tell people you bought an AK

Additional Cons
1. Weight. Every pound makes a difference when you consider your overall load. AR-15 wins here, OOTB and Ammo.

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## crushingstep7

> *The key factor for you operating as an individual is how close do you think the bad guys can get before you can do something about it.*


Well... I'm a pretty heavy sleeper. I've slept through fire alarms and was left to die once. So pretty close (Mossberg 500). 


Pericles, I'm in Rochester - and although the City of Rochester doesn't allow "assualt weapons" I'm in the Town of Greece, so I'm assuming our Bloomberg loving Mayor can kiss my ass.


Gunny, my circumstances are these: 
I need a rifle that can effectively deal with threats within 300 yards (main concern) but can also deal with targets well outside of that. How far outside of that, I don't know, but the further the better. 
Also, my targets have yet to present themselves, but home-invaders on drugs are a big one. After that I'm just considering gun-confiscators.



I've thought about the M1A Socom II or 16... any thoughts on that?
And Gunny, I'm insanely jealous that you can call yourself a Marine. I've wanted to be a Marine my whole life (18 right now) but I can't bring myself to fight for unconstitutional wars. It sucks. 

Anyway - thank you for your service.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Not for what you've listed.
> 
> 
> 
> Additional Pros
> 1. Dual-functionality as a hunting rifle if you don't own one already. (Large game that is)
> 2. SA Customer Support (if you go with a new one)
> 3. You don't have to tell people you bought an AK
> 
> ...


Problem is that the M1A will punch through 2 houses and go into a 3rd.  If you are talking about using it inside of a house, you had better know what's on the other side of the wall.

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## MelissaWV

I have nothing useful to contribute, except to hope you know how to use the rifle properly

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## crushingstep7

I would NEVER do that...
Put a Blue Helmet on the guy and then we'll talk=)

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## fisharmor

I think the real question is, can you hit anything past 300 yards?
And if so, how is having 20 rounds semi-auto going to help you?
What is it that you'll be shooting at 300+ yards which will justify spending $1k just to get rid of a bolt?

I like M1As... I really do... but it seems to me that for the price of one you can shop around and get a bolt action rifle which may actually be MORE accurate, plus the glass to go on it, and a SA carbine as well for short range.

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## GBurr

Don't spend that much on just a rifle if you are short on funds. You need to be prepared with tools, food, and necessities. For the rifle I would go with a Saiga chambered in whatever you find suits your needs. Real Russian reliability.

http://www.armsofamerica.com/firearms/saigarifles.html


Remember a $2000 rifle is no good to you without ammunition.

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## GunnyFreedom

> I think the real question is, can you hit anything past 300 yards?
> And if so, how is having 20 rounds semi-auto going to help you?
> What is it that you'll be shooting at 300+ yards which will justify spending $1k just to get rid of a bolt?
> 
> I like M1As... I really do... but it seems to me that for the price of one you can shop around and get a bolt action rifle which may actually be MORE accurate, plus the glass to go on it, and a SA carbine as well for short range.


Well, depending on the situation you are looking at...

If the threat is MS13, then should the wheels come off I expect to see technicals.  A vehicle can cover 300 yards awful quick.  An up-armored pickup truck with a mounted gun may be pretty fearless, but 20 well aimed rounds in 30 seconds can deter all but the best (read: Military, SWAT) armor.

And yeah, I rely on a bolty for my distance work, and highly recommend it.  

Seems to me that crushingstep wants only one weapon that will work for *both* long distance harassing fire and close in melee.

In which case, didn't they make a carbine (airborne) version of the M1A?

Still wonder if an AR15 platform wouldn't be a better choice though.  Get a reloading setup for .223 5.56 and worry a lot less about ammo.  Sure you can reload .308 too, but the 5.56 is a better choice inside 100 yards by far.  Followups faster, faster multiple target acquisition, more controllable rapid fire...

Honestly, in the described situation I'd really lean towards an upper-quality build-your-own AR15 for close-in & melee, PLUS a bolty when distance work becomes necessary.

If I had the cash (which I do not) I'd get a Benelli R1 in 30-06 and the aftermarket 10 round boxmag, load up a bunch of AP rounds for the Benelli and keep it on hand to punch through up-armored MS13 technicals.  The Benelli R1 is great for reduced recoil with accurate large caliber fire and rapid follow up/multiple target acquisition.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Don't spend that much on just a rifle if you are short on funds. You need to be prepared with tools, food, and necessities. For the rifle I would go with a Saiga chambered in whatever you find suits your needs. Real Russian reliability.
> 
> http://www.armsofamerica.com/firearms/saigarifles.html
> 
> 
> Remember a $2000 rifle is no good to you without ammunition.


I was assuming that he came up with the $2000 figure based on a budget.  tho this advice is pretty good.  except in my experience Russian weapons and ammunition are good for reliability, but not so much for precision and accuracy.  Your experience may vary, of course.  

Anecdotally (re ammo, not platform), I still have some 800 rds of Russian stuff that fired 6 to 8 MOA on a machine rest.  That's 6-8 inch groups at 100 yds even with the rifle bolted to a steel plate and anchored in concrete.  Don't really have much use for *that*...

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## Dieseler

> I was assuming that he came up with the $2000 figure based on a budget.  tho this advice is pretty good.  except in my experience Russian weapons and ammunition are good for reliability, but not so much for precision and accuracy.  Your experience may vary, of course.  
> 
> Anecdotally (re ammo, not platform), I still have some 800 rds of Russian stuff that fired 6 to 8 MOA on a machine rest.  That's 6-8 inch groups at 100 yds even with the rifle bolted to a steel plate and anchored in concrete.  Don't really have much use for *that*...


Yeah, it's bad... I'm no marksmen by anymeans but I totally agree.  I bought the AK, I would have an AR 15 now if I could do it over. I will be hunting up a good bolt gun to make up for this soon, hopefully. 
Either way CS, you mentioned the Mossberg 500... 
I would jump on that at least while you hash out the other factors. 
I sleep the same way that you described and its the first thing I grab when something goes bump in the night. keeps the neighbors and my kids a bit safer than if I grabbed any rifle first.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Yeah, it's bad... I'm no marksmen by anymeans but I totally agree.  I bought the AK, I would have an AR 15 now if I could do it over. I will be hunting up a good bolt gun to make up for this soon, hopefully. 
> Either way CS, you mentioned the Mossberg 500... 
> I would jump on that at least while you hash out the other factors. 
> I sleep the same way that you described and its the first thing I grab when something goes bump in the night. keeps the neighbors and my kids a bit safer than if I grabbed any rifle first.


THIS

You can't beat a shotgun for close-in defense.  You just CAN'T.  In inherited a semiautomatic 12 gauge from my grandfather, and I keep that closer than anything else.

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## Pericles

As usual, good advice from *Gunny*. It seems you really want an M1A - nothing wrong with that. But, that weapon is not well suited for indoor work, and it and 1K of ammo will just fit your budget. So, if you don't already have the shotty....

OTOH, you could do the AR, 1K of ammo for the AR, and the shotty for your budget.

Like *Gunny*, I believe in the 20 inch barrel on a serious AR. The M4 style is for inside work and vehicle carry, as the supply of M231s on the civilian market is rather limited.

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## Icymudpuppy

Home Defense?

Shotgun's best.

Open spaces?

Rifle outpaces.

Concealable protection?

Pistol's the best weapon.

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## madengr

How about a FAL?

http://www.dsarms.com/

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## GBurr

I don't know much about most Ak's but I am certain that a Saiga chambered in 308 or 223 with a 20 inch barrel will give you 3 to 4 inch groups at 100 yards. That accuracy will make most M1A owners cry because they overpaid.

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## crushingstep7

Fish, I plan to get a bolt action, too.  It's just not on my 'high priority' list.  Remington 700 seems nice.  My reasoning behind the M1A, thus far, is that I'd probably be able to hit outside of 300 yards (I would assume, haven't heard otherwise).  To be honest, I don't see how much use I'd get out of a bolt-action, either.  What are your reasons for wanting a bolt-action over a semi-automatic?

And GBurr, trust me, I hear ya.  $2,000 is quite a bit of cash, but I'll be getting a lot of Financial Aid for school and I'm attending a good community college (cheap tuition) so I should have a good amount left over.

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## Bman

> THIS
> 
> You can't beat a shotgun for close-in defense.  You just CAN'T.  In inherited a semiautomatic 12 gauge from my grandfather, and I keep that closer than anything else.


Hey Gunny.  Do you have any recommendations on a .308 or do you think I should look at another rifle for something that can cover some ground.

P.S.  I want something that can be used for hunting.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Hey Gunny.  Do you have any recommendations on a .308 or do you think I should look at another rifle for something that can cover some ground.
> 
> P.S.  I want something that can be used for hunting.


As you can imagine, and certainly already know, there is no simple answer for /any/ of these questions.  There are lots of factors involved to account for.

In the way of caliber, the .308 is really a middle-distance round.  It is truly at home between 350 yds and 750 yds.  That's not to say that people aren't hitting at 1000 with the .308 at NRA High Power matches, but then, people are hitting at 1000 with the .223 at NRA High Power matches too...

If you want some really reach out and punch at range, but need a "common" round for the sake of availability, then I am a particular fan of the .30-'06

The round is very available, it is extremely common for a hunting round, and it is in essence simply a "magnum" version of the .308  Indeed, it uses the exact same projectile, with a larger case and a larger charge.

The 30-06 from a bolty really comes into it's own from 400 to 900 yards

But if availability of ammunition is not a problem, ie, you intend to reload, there are several cartridges even more powerful than the 30-06 now, all of which use the exact same .308 projectile.

In order of power (power translates into muzzle velocity, flat trajectory, extreme range, and terminal ballistic energy) they are as follows:

.300 Winchester Short Magnum Max Effective Range ≈ 1100yds
.300 Winchester Magnum Max Effective Range ≈ 1200yds
.300 Weatherby Magnum Max Effective Range ≈ 1350yds
.300 Remington Ultra Magnum Max Effective Range ≈ 1500yds

The mind literally boggles at an 'ordinary' hunting rifle being effective to 1500 yards  After all, there are only 1760 yards in a MILE, and we are talking about POINT targets.  Add ≈ 20% to those ranges for area targets.

but it's not really about _range_ so much as it is about flat trajectory and ft/lbs of energy at the far side of terminal ballistics.  A round like the .300 RUM firing your ordinary 180gr .308 projectile (while you may regret firing it after 2 or 3 rounds, on account of recoil) can extend your point-blank-range (ie no fiddling with sights or drop compensation) out to a whopping 450 yards if zeroed at 375 yards.  Sure, if you do that, then at 200 yds you'll be 6.5" above the crosshairs, and at 450 yds you'll be 7.5" below the crosshairs, but the point behind "point-blank-range" is aim center mass and don't give a damn about the range.  

Load up 150gr projectiles and you can get a PBR of 500 blinkin yards since it is that much of a flatter trajectory.  I'm having a hard time expressing to you exactly how purely _insane_ a PBR of 500 yards is.

But if you don't mind fiddling with sites and compensating for drop, and you want a round that's reasonably available without a reloading press, I absolutely lean towards the 30-06.  It uses the identical projectile as the .308 (as do all the rounds I mentioned) and so if you ever DO get into reloading, the components of the round will be ridiculously available.

Now, the .308 is a fine round also, but if you want to reach the magic 1000 yard line, you have to do some real hocus pocus to compensate for the drop.  So I'd say entry-level for a field expedient 1000 yarder is the 30-06

And yes, the Remington 700 is readily available in 30-06, as well as several semiautomatic rifles that are just stupid accurate.  

So there is a bewildering array of options.  Narrow down your preference bands and I'll get more in depth about that narrower field of choices.

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## Dieseler

Awesome post ^^^

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## GunnyFreedom

> Awesome post ^^^


Thanks!

I'm still trying to express in words how insanely crazy a PBR of 500 yards would be.  

The US Army and the US Marines zero their rifles differently.  The US Army zero at 25 yards on the 200yd sight setting, and the US Marines zero at 36 yards on the 300yd sight setting.  This gives the Army a 200yd PBR and the Marines a 300yd PBR, which the Marines call "Battlesight Zero" (don't know what the Army calls it)

Even in WW2 with the venerable M1 Garand in 30-06, you get much beyond 300yds and you were dialing elevation in order to hit the target.  The whole notion of a "point and shoot" rifle that shoots flat enough to give you a 500yd PBR while remaining lethal A MILE AWAY is enough to make my jaw gape in awe.

Mind you, a .300 RUM is truly an elephant gun, one that would pass through 3 or 4 elephants in a single shot if you lined them up.  You certainly would not want to use it to hunt anything smaller than a large buck.  Your shot placement would have to be more accurate as it is guaranteed to pass through and would therefore deliver less shock-trauma to the tissue.

Your best zone of lethality is for the round to stop IN the target, and this is why so many hunting rounds are now designed to splay, in order to transfer as much shock trauma as possible to the target.  A super high power round like the .300 RUM will in all likelihood pass all the way through before it has a chance to deliver much of that shock trauma.  

This is good news/bad news.  While a smaller target like a rabbit would be vaporized by a .300 RUM and you would not get any meat, a larger target like a deer would probably see less destruction than with a .308 hydroshock.  The bad news, of course, is that you need to focus more on shot placement, since a through-and-through shot will deliver less blunt force trauma.

They do make hydroshocks for the magnum rounds (since, after all, the projectile is the exact same) and you might want to try experiments to see what works and does not work.  A serious magnum round with a hydroshock projectile would be GREAT for hunting something like caribou, moose, or grizzly bear.  It might blow a great deal of the meat right out of a buck though.  For deer hunting with a magnum round, you probably want FMJ or ballistic tip.

In the .308 on the other hand, a hydroshock projectile is just right for a deer.  Though if you don't hit it just right it's liable to just piss off a full grown grizzly bear.

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## GunnyFreedom

I know this is going to break the postwidth and I apologize, but at this site here, they are selling a first-of-a-kind semiautomatic 1500 yarder built around the .300 RUM

Isn't this a thing of beauty?





Gas operated, semi-automatic, fully buffered 14lb magazine fed 1500 yarder with sub MOA precision.  Some things just make you sit back and say, "wow."

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## GunnyFreedom

I will say this though, if I were going to go through all the trouble of setting up a loading bench, purchasing crap tons of brass casings, etc that would make a magnum worth it, I like the .300 Weatherby Magnum better than the rest.  It's been around since 1948, and has been chambered in a lot of weapons.  It is extremely well tested, you don't have to wait for someone to invent a new kind of rifle to eat it, and you don't have so much to worry about the cartridge going obsolete.

Drawback is a unique double radius shoulder that makes the brass more expensive.  However, it is consistently more accurate, and often has better ballistic qualities than the MUCH newer RUM.

Still tho, I'm a die-hard fan of the 30-06.  If I were to get a magnum, it would absolutely be the Weatherby, but between the magnums and the 30-06, I'll take the '06.  

three words:  best.  thirty.  ever.

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## Dieseler

Keep going man!

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## Gideon

I am not trying to walk all over your awesome .30 cal posts Gunny, as I too am a staunch proponent of the .308 as a battle rifle (The Army calls it Battle Site Zero also).

However, in accordance with the OP's budget of $2000:

CMMG 5.56 16" 1:7 twist carbine - $1100

20 Magpul PMags - $300

1000 rounds 75 gr. .223 (5.56) - $600

Availability, Modularity, Compatibility, Accuracy and Range within the general specs layed out in the shopping list above.

You will not regret it!

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## TruckinMike

> I am not trying to walk all over your awesome .30 cal posts Gunny, as I too am a staunch proponent of the .308 as a battle rifle (The Army calls it Battle Site Zero also).
> 
> However, in accordance with the OP's budget of $2000:
> 
> CMMG 5.56 16" 1:7 twist carbine - $1100
> 
> 20 Magpul PMags - $300
> 
> 1000 rounds 75 gr. .223 (5.56) - $600
> ...


Add the vortex flash hider ($55). 
Ok, its a bit over budget, but the vortex could save your life.  The Vortex is a top ten _"must have"_ when building a rifle. 

Check out the difference between the birdcage and the vortex YouTube - Vortex Flash Hider (Birdcage replacement)


...and if you have some extra funds in the future don't forget to install  national match sites(front post and rear aperture for around $25).
TMike

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## GunnyFreedom

> I am not trying to walk all over your awesome .30 cal posts Gunny, as I too am a staunch proponent of the .308 as a battle rifle (The Army calls it Battle Site Zero also).
> 
> However, in accordance with the OP's budget of $2000:
> 
> CMMG 5.56 16" 1:7 twist carbine - $1100
> 
> 20 Magpul PMags - $300
> 
> 1000 rounds 75 gr. .223 (5.56) - $600
> ...


I do love the AR platform in 5.56, and it's my go-to if the zombies are coming but haven't breached the fenceline yet.

Still need more details though, as I am sure that I can rustle up an '06 setup under budget.

Thumbs WAY up on the 75gr btw.  Too many people are stuck on XM855 in 62gr, or worse 55gr which have issues.

And 20 mags is a /lot/ of mags.  Without a huge line of logistical support, the name of the game is shoot and scoot.  the max my LB vest carries is 12 mags, so I have 12 mags.  But in reality I only carry 6 in the vest and use the extra pockets for other stuff.  Truth be told, anything we would likely face anything past 2 mag changes and you may as well write the epitaph.  

I can't even imagine a scenario (_other_ than as part of a platoon of Soldiers or Marines on the battlefield) where you could make it to your 6th mag without having an opportunity to reload, or are already dead.

I keep about 500 rds in my bugout bag on stripper clips, 1000 rds in ammo cans also on stripper clips, keep a few extra speedloaders around, and rely on 6 mags (the remaining 6 are spares)

[here's wishing we had an <hr>]

Example of an on-budget '06 rig:

Benelli R1 magfed semiautomatic 30-06 $1,250.00
5x 10 round box magazines $482.25
400 rounds of M2 Ball (150gr) '06 $275

Total $2007.25

(I remember when we could get 1000 rds of Lake City for $250!)

But that's just one example amongst many.  Mind you, an M1 Garand is battle tested and one in excellent condition can be had for about the same as the R1...but no boxmags, you have to do the "please don't eat my thumb" dance if you get into rapid reloads, plus the internal mag only holds 8 in a Garand, not 10...

[here's wishing we had an <hr>]

So some stuff that would be really good to know, CS7:

What sort of critters do you plan to hunt?

Dense (urban) Medium (suburban) or light (rural) population?

Heavy woodland or lots of open space?

If you fire inside your house, are your neighbors in jeopardy?

Do you have to deal with confined spaces where it might be hard to turn a 22" barrel?

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## Dieseler

That's it.
I'm $#@!ing copy pasting this $#@!.

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## GunnyFreedom

OOOHHH Yeah, and please please please please do NOT underestimate the utility of the venerable .22 rifle.

It would in all seriousness be incredibly smart to trim the budget on your main battle rifle enough to include a .22

1) everything you do to practice marksmanship on your .22 is the exact same as what you do on your MBR (except for dropcomps) and you can easily go through 1000 rounds without developing a buck or a flinch, thus actually making you a better shooter than had you done all that practicing on your MBR.

2) 1000 rounds of .22lr will set you back between $40 and $80, which also makes every pull of the trigger that much less painful.

3) in a real SHTF scenario, the big game will get harvested pretty quickly, leaving people to survive on rabbit, possum, and squirrel.  Unless you get a side-on headshot, high power rifles are useless for this game.

4) in a SHTF scenario, you can still use your weapon, and not have to worry about the 5 mile radius who now knows you have a weapon, and probably food.  It will be more like a 3/4 mile radius, which holds a lot fewer people.

there are more reasons, but that is a good start to get you thinking.

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## Dieseler

Yes Sir, .22 is a must.
My Grand Dad told me as a boy that he figured more deer had been killed with a .22 than any other rifle, at the time I was probably 7 or 8 years old.
Can go sub sonic with the .22 also. Not sure how far that report would be detectable from, guess depends on the weather.

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## GunnyFreedom

well, a subsonic .22 from a rifle is only a smidge above a whisper, and they could be silenced completely, if it weren't for the fact that silencers are illegal.  without a silencer, _maybe_ 75 yards away?

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## ghengis86

> well, a subsonic .22 from a rifle is only a smidge above a whisper, and they could be silenced completely, *if it weren't for the fact that silencers are illega*l.  without a silencer, _maybe_ 75 yards away?


i thought suppressors will legal in about 38 states currently?

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## GunnyFreedom

> i thought suppressors will legal in about 38 states currently?


Dunno then.  :shrug:  I was under the impression that you needed special permits, lke concealed carry, which amounts to "illegal" but yeah, it's a state by state thing.

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## Uriel999

I thought about this some....an AR15 platform rifle and an M&P15-22 would serve you well. As others have commented the .22 is a must have. The M&P15-22 would allow you to practice shooting and familiarize yourself with the AR15 platform. Also, you can build yourself a good AR15 for relatively cheap. The only reason the one I am building now will turn out to be expensive is because its getting bells and whistles. You can build a damned good AR15 for 900 bucks.

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## GunnyFreedom

> I thought about this some....an AR15 platform rifle and an M&P15-22 would serve you well. As others have commented the .22 is a must have. The M&P15-22 would allow you to practice shooting and familiarize yourself with the AR15 platform. Also, you can build yourself a good AR15 for relatively cheap. The only reason the one I am building now will turn out to be expensive is because its getting bells and whistles. You can build a damned good AR15 for 900 bucks.


The .22 converters for an AR are a great idea, and a lot of people I know swear by them.  I don't use them though, because over the course of 1000's of .22 rounds they can deposit lead in your rifling that can only be removed by scrubbing, which is not good for your grooves.

If you go this route (again, I fully agree that it's a great idea) then please be sure to get "Stinger" FMJ .22lr instead of the ordinary lead type.  That does mean your .22's will be a little more expensive though. (500 rds for $70)

The benefit is that you only have to carry 1 rifle around that can shoot both .223/5.56 and .22lr.  The Stinger is considered a "hyper-velocity" .22lr so you will have significantly increased range and impact energy.

neutral:  being a metal jacket round would ordinarily mean that if you miss a rabbit's head and hit it in the body, you will have less to worry about lead in the meat, but it seems most any of the Stinger .22's you can buy readily are hollowpoint.

The detractor (other than the lead deposits, which can be avoided by using Stinger .22 rounds) is minor -- your sight height will be a little higher off the boreline than is ordinarily preferred with a .22, so precision shots (like a rabbit's head at 75yds) will require a little bit more familiarity with sight settings -- something that comes readily with practicing at multiple ranges.  And the Stinger makes twice as loud of a report than the standard .22lr


I don't think there is much discussion of this online, as this comes entirely from personal experience working with people who use .22lr conversion kits at Appleseeds -- if you do go this route, do please feed it Stinger ammo with a metal jacket.  Lead does not come out with ordinary bore cleaning, and if you fire 5000 or 10000 rounds of ordinary .22lr without scrubbing your bore with a wire brush, it will severely reduce the effect of your lands and grooves.  Obviously a few hundred will be inconsequential, and those deposits so thin that ordinary firing and ordinary bore cleaning (over time) will remove what little lead gets deposited from a couple hundred ordinary .22lr so it's not like a few of them would hurt your rifle...but for any kind of serious practice, do use the Stingers.  You'll thank me later. /Monk ;-)

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## GunnyFreedom

// I am getting 'Your Security Token Is Invalid' trying to post in the "I was on Glenn Beck Show" thread, but it ;ets me post here?  hmmm...

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## Uriel999

> The .22 converters for an AR are a great idea, and a lot of people I know swear by them.  I don't use them though, because over the course of 1000's of .22 rounds they can deposit lead in your rifling that can only be removed by scrubbing, which is not good for your grooves.
> 
> If you go this route (again, I fully agree that it's a great idea) then please be sure to get "Stinger" FMJ .22lr instead of the ordinary lead type.  That does mean your .22's will be a little more expensive though. (500 rds for $70)
> 
> The benefit is that you only have to carry 1 rifle around that can shoot both .223/5.56 and .22lr.  The Stinger is considered a "hyper-velocity" .22lr so you will have significantly increased range and impact energy.
> 
> neutral:  being a metal jacket round would ordinarily mean that if you miss a rabbit's head and hit it in the body, you will have less to worry about lead in the meat, but it seems most any of the Stinger .22's you can buy readily are hollowpoint.
> 
> The detractor (other than the lead deposits, which can be avoided by using Stinger .22 rounds) is minor -- your sight height will be a little higher off the boreline than is ordinarily preferred with a .22, so precision shots (like a rabbit's head at 75yds) will require a little bit more familiarity with sight settings -- something that comes readily with practicing at multiple ranges.  And the Stinger makes twice as loud of a report than the standard .22lr
> ...


The M&P15-22 is not a conversion kit. It is complete firearm that sells for around 500 bucks.



They have gotten nothing but praise too from what I have read.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> The M&P15-22 is not a conversion kit. It is complete firearm that sells for around 500 bucks.
> 
> <removing img to break forum width as little as possible>
> 
> They have gotten nothing but praise too from what I have read.


OH!  Well alrighty then. 8-)  That's kinda nice looking.  Looks like that mag holds WAY more rounds than a Ruger 10/22 -- plus you don't have to fiddle with installing tech-sights in order to get your right sight picture...

I like that little feller.  I'm also a HUGE fan of the S&W M&P line

----------


## Dieseler

I think I would rather a 10/22 with a scope and sling and the difference in price in Ammo.
I know it works, this thing in the picture not so much.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

Reading reviews, looks like the M&P15-22 is universally loved /except/ for a single forum where everyone keeps reporting jamming issues.

It's kinda weird, usually if a weapon had jamming issues, it will be on several forums, and not just on one forum.  

Here is the forum with several bad reviews

But like I said, every other place I find reviewing this weapon universally loves it, and do not have any kind of malfunctions whatsoever.

So there is a single forum giving out horrible reviews while every other forum loves it.  I am failing to come up with a valid explanation of what that would be, unless that forum is predisposed to dislike Smith & Wesson???  

Anybody know the story behind http://www.tactical-life.com/ ?

At this point, I am inclined to discount that one forum completely, as I have looked at over a dozen other forums that I do trust, and have seen nothing similar.

I am simply linking it above as it is still a good idea to try and find both negatives and positives before committing to a purchase, and that is really the only place I can find negatives at all.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> I think I would rather a 10/22 with a scope and sling and the difference in price in Ammo.
> I know it works, this thing in the picture not so much.


That's a good point.  The Ruger 10/22 has by now probably sent more rounds downrange than any other rifle in history, and may be one of the most reliable rifles ever built.

I do like the M&P15-22 for the fact that it operates and breaks down exactly like an AR though.

----------


## Uriel999

> That's a good point.  The Ruger 10/22 has by now probably sent more rounds downrange than any other rifle in history, and may be one of the most reliable rifles ever built.
> 
> I do like the M&P15-22 for the fact that it operates and breaks down exactly like an AR though.


and its tacticool!

----------


## Dieseler

Check out this video.
Taking an abused 7mm Remington bolt action and makin it into a tack driver.
http://www.myoutdoortv.com/video/vid...X9yNwEfKdWE7pA
Lot of good vids here, love this show and this site.
Wow, this deserves its own thread.

----------


## Bman

Hey Gunny thanks for the earlier response.  I was under the impression that a .308 was a higher veolcity shot than the .30-06.  Based upon what you were saying I think I'll be looking at .30-06's.  Probably better they seem to be a bit more common when I've window shopped.

----------


## crushingstep7

Good to have ya, Gunny.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

Oh the '06 is definitely a more powerful round than the .308 -- it was also the workhorse of WW2 in the form of the M1 Garand, described by General George Patton as "The finest battle implement ever devised by man"

The .308 was later (early 50's ?) introduced so that troops in the field could carry more ammunition on their person, and to allow for box magazines in what would eventually become the M14 rifle.  The M14 project was stymied for a time because the generals in small arms acquisition refused to migrate to a less powerful battle rifle than the M1 Garand they were using at the time.  So they developed new primer and powder technology that made the much smaller .308 nearly equal in power to the 30-06 it was replacing.  ORIGINALLY, it was true that the .308 had the same performance characteristics, as they were comparing the .308 with more advanced propellant and the 30-06 with earlier less powerful smokeless powder.  

Of course, now the .30-'06 rounds available ALSO use modern powder, so that performance bump has translated back to the 30-06 making it more powerful than the .308, and thus more powerful than the cartridge that won WW2.

Pulling up my handy-dandy iSnipe ballistics calculator for the iPhone, doing my best to compare oranges to oranges:

30-06 Hornady 150gr BTSP claims a MV of 2910 ft/sec with 999 ft/lb of impact energy at 500yds
.308 Hornady 150gr BTSP claims a MV of 2820 ft/sec with 925 ft/lb of impact energy at 500yds

But that's really only half the story

The .308 is really limited at 180gr unless you get into some of the more unusual makes like Lapua or Norma, and then performance of anything over 180gr can be unpredictable, since to push the projectile to a stabilizing speed requires some advanced tricks with powder.  The '06 on the other hand can commonly be found as heavy as 220gr because they don't have to do voodoo with powder to push it...they have PLENTY of case to work with.

To illustrate THAT difference, let's go apples to apples:

30-06 Black Hills Gold Nosler AccuBond 180gr MV 2700 ft/sec w 1426 ft/lbs @500yd
.308 Black Hills Gold Nosler AccuBond 180gr MV 2550 ft/sec w 1249 ft/lbs @500yd

and apples to oranges:

30-06 Hornady 180gr Light Magnum BTSP MV 2900 ft/sec w 1537 ft/lb @500yds
.308 Federal 180gr Trophy Bonded Tip MV 2620 ft/sec w 1315 ft/lb @500yds
.308 PMC 180gr Sierra GameKing MV 2620 ft/sec w 1320 ft/lb @500yds

The two .308 in 180gr are the most powerful factory loads I could find, while the 30-06 is a "typical" high end factory load for 180gr.  Hornady does not offer .308 in 180gr at all

DoubleTap 200gr Nosler AccuBond MV 2650 ft/sec w 1687 ft/lb @500yds

Which you can see is FAR more powerful than any .308 you can buy.

If you get into reloading, (and are very careful!!!!!) you can beat even these crazy numbers!

----------


## GunnyFreedom

Usually, the .308 has become more common than the 30-06 but now, the .308 has re-entered military service making them more scarce, while the 30-06 has no military application anymore (outside of a couple of the more rare sniper rifles that are pretty much never issued) so the 30-06 is _effectively_ more common now, for the same reason 5.56 NATO has become scarce.  The military is keeping all the MilSurp ammo forcing hobbyists to go for commercial, thus creating a scarcity.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Good to have ya, Gunny.


Thanks crushingstep7!  I still have some questions in regards to your original post though:

What sort of critters do you plan to hunt?

Do you live/operate near dense (urban) medium (suburban) or light (rural) population?

Heavy woodland, tall grass and brush, or lots of open space?

If you fire inside your house, are your neighbors in jeopardy?

Do you have to deal with confined spaces where it might be hard to turn a 22" barrel?

Do you foresee a need to reliably hit targets beyond 700 yards?

----------


## Pericles

> The US Army and the US Marines zero their rifles differently.  The US Army zero at 25 yards on the 200yd sight setting, and the US Marines zero at 36 yards on the 300yd sight setting.  This gives the Army a 200yd PBR and the Marines a 300yd PBR, which the Marines call "Battlesight Zero" (don't know what the Army calls it)
> 
> Even in WW2 with the venerable M1 Garand in 30-06, you get much beyond 300yds and you were dialing elevation in order to hit the target.  The whole notion of a "point and shoot" rifle that shoots flat enough to give you a 500yd PBR while remaining lethal A MILE AWAY is enough to make my jaw gape in awe.


As mentioned previously, the Army also calls it "Battlesight Zero", but army units use different tactics than the Marines, and except for Special Forces and light infantry units, the rifle plays a different role than it does in the Marines. In the typical armor, cav, or mechanized infantry unit, crew served weapons (tank cannon, chain gun, heavy and light machine guns) are the killers, and rifles are for street fighting, guarding prisoners, and personal defense. The engagement ranges are closer, and thus the Army craze for the M4 with the 14.5 inch barrel.

The only Army units that will stress marksmanship at ranges over 200 meters with a rifle, are the Green Berets, Rangers, 10th, 25th, 82nd, and 101st. 

Admittedly the guys in the Pentagon tend to use Army and Marine infantry battalions interchangeably, which they should not based on doctrine, but stubborn wars not going as planned and limited force structure options cause that to happen.

----------


## Pericles

> Usually, the .308 has become more common than the 30-06 but now, the .308 has re-entered military service making them more scarce, while the 30-06 has no military application anymore (outside of a couple of the more rare sniper rifles that are pretty much never issued) so the 30-06 is _effectively_ more common now, for the same reason 5.56 NATO has become scarce.  The military is keeping all the MilSurp ammo forcing hobbyists to go for commercial, thus creating a scarcity.


Of course, ammunition choice is closely related to the what type of weapon shoud I get debate.

In the military, weapon design and choice, tactics, and ammunition have a relationship to each other.

Most of the current designs and choices come about as a result of observations made in WWII and modified by recent experience. Indirect fire weapons (artillery and aircraft) are the big killers of enemy units. As you get closer, the crew served weapons (armored vehicle mounted guns and machine guns) suppress enemy action and allow friendly forces to close in and finish off the engagement. Therefore, the military (primarily Army), see the rifle as the weapon for close in finish off work and have looked at rifle design and ammunition capability accordingly.

The goal has been to produce a weapon accurate to within 350 to 500 meters and ammunition effective in putting enemy soldiers out of action at those ranges. Notice that I did not say kill - a badly wounded soldier causes more damage to the enemy than a dead one. A badly wounded soldier diverts resources from the fight in order to evacuate him and potentially save his life. Thus, potentially 3 soldiers are out of the fight with one rally bad wound. But I digress.

Two approaches have been taken for small arms ammunition as a result. One approach was to keep the same bullet as the previously used full size rifle cartridge, but with a shorter case with less powder for the reduced range of engagements. This approach was taken first by the Germans in the Stg 44, or MP 44 firing the 7.92x33 round, which later became more famous as the AK-47 and the 7.62x39 round, when the plans for the MP44 were reworked by the Soviet Union. The other approach was to use extremely high velocity and some degree of fragmentation to cause the wound, and had been research in western Europe, which first produced the reduction in military from .45 to .50 caliber used in the 1800s to the just over .30 cal which became an almost universal standard by the early 1900s. This group thought the best performance could be found in the .25 cal (more or less), with the original British / Belgian proposal for the standard NATO round as a .280, while the US and Germany insisted on nothing less than .30 cal.

Of course the US finally officially abandoned the full size rifle cartridge with the adaption of the M16, but as Marine doctrine, and the most recent needs of A-stan demonstrate, there is still the need for long range accurate engagements with rifles, and some M14s have come back, and there has also been use of the Remington 700 as a sniper platform.

What does this mean for us? If you are "an army of one", then your choice needs to be based on where you will use the weapon, and what your engagement ranges will be. Everything is a compromise - range, rate of fire, and number of rounds you can carry.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> As mentioned previously, the Army also calls it "Battlesight Zero", but army units use different tactics than the Marines, and except for Special Forces and light infantry units, the rifle plays a different role than it does in the Marines. In the typical armor, cav, or mechanized infantry unit, crew served weapons (tank cannon, chain gun, heavy and light machine guns) are the killers, and rifles are for street fighting, guarding prisoners, and personal defense. The engagement ranges are closer, and thus the Army craze for the M4 with the 14.5 inch barrel.
> 
> The only Army units that will stress marksmanship at ranges over 200 meters with a rifle, are the Green Berets, Rangers, 10th, 25th, 82nd, and 101st. 
> 
> Admittedly the guys in the Pentagon tend to use Army and Marine infantry battalions interchangeably, which thay should not based on doctrine, but stubborn wars not going as planned and limited force structure options ause that to happen.


Indeed, Marine doctrine focuses on operations in the field with significantly less support from the rear than the 'standard' Army infantry unit, and therefore push for a stronger focus on individual marksmanship, to include the ability to adjust sight settings and hit a man-sized target reliably out to 500 yards.

Notice that the same focus exists for special forces and Airborne units in the Army -- also those which are specifically likely to have a lack of support from the rear.

So I agree (with the unstated premise) that the different  focus on marksmanship skills has a lot more to do with how much heavy support the unit is liable to get than with what color of uniform they happen to wear.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Of course, ammunition choice is closely related to the what type of weapon shoud I get debate.
> 
> In the military, weapon design and choice, tactics, and ammunition have a relationship to each other.
> 
> Most of the current designs and choices come about as a result of observations made in WWII and modified by recent experience. Indirect fire weapons (artillery and aircraft) are the big killers of enemy units. As you get closer, the crew served weapons (armored vehicle mounted guns and machine guns) suppress enemy action and allow friendly forces to close in and finish off the engagement. Therefore, the military (primarily Army), see the rifle as the weapon for close in finish off work and have looked at rifle design and ammunition capability accordingly.
> 
> The goal has been to produce a weapon accurate to within 350 to 500 meters and ammunition effective in putting enemy soldiers out of action at those ranges. Notice that I did not say kill - a badly wounded soldier causes more damage to the enemy than a dead one. A badly wounded soldier diverts resources from the fight in order to evacuate him and potentially save his life. Thus, potentially 3 soldiers are out of the fight with one rally bad wound. But I digress.
> 
> Two approaches have been taken for small arms ammunition as a result. One approach was to keep the same bullet as the previously used full size rifle cartridge, but with a shorter case with less powder for the reduced range of engagements. This approach was taken first by the Germans in the Stg 44, or MP 44 firing the 7.92x33 round, which later became more famous as the AK-47 and the 7.62x39 round, when the plans for the MP44 were reworked by the Soviet Union. The other approach was to use extremely high velocity and some degree of fragmentation to cause the wound, and had been research in western Europe, which first produced the reduction in military from .45 to .50 caliber used in the 1800s to the just over .30 cal which became an almost universal standard by the early 1900s. This group thought the best performance could be found in the .25 cal (more or less), with the original British / Belgian proposal for the standard NATO round as a .280, while the US and Germany insisted on nothing less than .30 cal.
> ...


EXCELLENT background!

And a very good point that warfare in Afghanistan (and Iraq) has brought more of the doctrines back into the fold that have been held by the Marines since the 19th century, but abandoned by more "primary" standing armies in the world as irrelevant in modern warfare.

The desert conflicts have been more organic, and less unit & maneuver oriented, therefore stressing individual team and squad tactics over company and platoon tactics.  Much of your heavy support is barred by ROE and the concern for collateral damage when the enemy is likely to blend in with civilians for concealment and 'human shields.'

All of this tends to hilight a forgotten requirement for excellent marksmanship, and weapons that can reach out to significant range.  

If I remember correctly, it wasn't that long into Iraq this go-around that the Army quickly recognized this and made an _official_ "designated marksman" program...an idea which many company and platoon commanders had kinda done on their own before, now officially sanctioned as a good idea, and an 'archaic anachronistic' concept that the Marines had refused to abandon that hung around from before WW1.

The statistics will tell you that engagements in modern war almost universally take place within 75 yards -- WELL within the point blank range of ANY infantry on earth.  Problem is that those statistics rarely cover insurgencies, and especially insurgencies in the desert.

The primary lessons that the Marines drew from all these years to maintain such a strong focus on marksmanship and individual infantry with extremely long range capability, was Chapultepek (1847) Korea (1871) The Boxer Rebellion (1900) and the Banana Wars (on and off 1890 to 1930).

We used to get this thing where they told us: "All the experts universally agree that the need for individual marksmanship died in WW2, but we don't give a damn what the 'experts' say!  They also say that cooks don't need rifles!  Those experts were not in Nicaragua in 1892 when cooks with rifles saved our ass, and skilled marksmanship won the day against determined guerrillas!"

So here again we find ourselves fighting a guerrilla war in a region with wide open spaces and lots of hilly terrain.  And once again it turns out that it really is a good idea to give rifles to cooks and to teach your front line infantry to hit out to 500 yards.

So much for 'experts' hey?  General Patton knew better, and he was one of the 'standard' infantry that would in modern times be given less emphasis on long range marksmanship.  Patton would have been beating his chest going into Afghanistan screaming at the upper brass "I TOLD YOU SO YA BASTARDS!" while his unit was already trained-up anyway.

----------


## crushingstep7

Ah this is so much to read and respond to!! lol

----------


## GunnyFreedom

OK, first thing that is important to remember is that there are no blue helmets, only zombies.  Seriously, remember that.  You'll thank me later.

Now, 700 yds is an _awful_ long way away.  To hit an 18" circle you would need to not only fire within 2.5 MOA, but to put it into a 2.5 MOA circle AFTER accounting for drop and wind.  Removing wind effect, that's equivalent to a 2.5" group at 100yds, or 0.6" group at 25yds.

Where I'm from, a lot of forestland, it is rare to even see 300yds past all the trees.  You may only get 500yds on a HUGE farm or a regular road.  To get to 700 yards, you would have to find an industrial farm, a major highway, or a cutout for powerlines.  So in any case, at least around here, a 700 yd shot is rare.

Do an experiment.  Pull up Google Earth and find some known point of reference with a long field of view.  Measure out 700yds to another known point of reference and then go out and see what the distance looks like with your own eyes.  If you have a helper, stand at both points and see what a person looks like at that range.  You may be surprised.

Now that said, to reach out reliably to that distance and still have the energy you want, I would not go lighter than a 30-06.

Now, 30-06 has been around since...well...1906.  So there are a bewildering array of rifles chambered for the round.

*Semiautomatic:*

Remington Mod 742 Engraved 1776-1976 30-06 Cal. $555

I hilight this one because I love the 1776 theme, but the Remington 742 is not the most accurate rifle.  Accurized and on a machine rest you are looking at 2MOA (2" at 100yds) at _best_.

Springfield Armory M1 Garand 30-06 Barrel H+R 1953 around $800

The M1 Garand was the workhorse of WW2.  A medium rack-grade M1 can get you 2.25MOA, a high quality 1.75MOA, and if you dump resources into accurizing it, you can get it down to 0.75MOA which is just...awesome!

Browning BAR MK 2 Safari 30-06 New in Box $879 

Here is a rifle that has experienced combat in WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and yet continues to undergo modernization.  You would have to pick up optics, and maybe want a "BOSS" system, but right out of the box these will get you as tight at 1.75 MOA to 1.5 MOA.  The Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) was actually used as a shoulder-fired machine gun in WW2, but has undergone significant evolution since then.

Winchester SXR 30-06 Spfld 22" $580

Not as good as the BAR, but costs less.

Remington 750 WOODMASTER 30-06 $668

Remington does a Semi 30-06 that approaches 1.25MOA out of the box

Benelli R1 .30-06 rifle about $1000

Here is the mac-daddy of semiauto 30-06.  out of the box boasts a 0.75 MOA accuracy, and the operation significantly reduces perceived recoil.  for followup shots.  Unlike the other rifles which you can only get a 4-rd mag (plus 1 in the chamber) you can get a 10-rd mag for the R1 pretty readily.  Indeed, I think the R1 is really the ONLY semiauto 30-06 for which a high-cap mag can be had.


SO

If you are focused on capacity, you have the 8rd internal mag M1 Garand, or the (with aftermarket mags) 10 round detachable mag Benelli R1

If you are focused on accuracy, you have the M1 Garand, gut you have to be picky-choosy and may have to get it accurized, the Browning BAR, the Remington 750 with less of a battle-tested history, or the relatively brand new Benelli R1 which is by far the most accurate of the bunch.

All in all, if you want a reliable, accurate battle-tested semiautomatic 30-06 that is on the low side of a grand, then look at the Browning BAR.

If you want a reliable (but not battle tested) high capacity and insanely accurate semiautomatic 30-06 that is in the high side of a grand, then look at the Benelli R1.

If you want the most supremely battle tested, incredibly reliable, 8rd capacity semiautomatic 30-06 than can run the gamut from $700 to $5,000 then get ready to do lots of research and comparison shopping and look at the M1 Garand.

*Bolt Action:*

There are an even MORE bewildering array of bolties offered in 30-06.  Almost all of them are 5rd internal mags.  Bolties are famously accurate, and if you go _really_ high end you can get them down to an insane 0.25MOA

Mind you, all the accuracy in the world will not help unless you are practiced up.  It won't matter if your rifle is a half MOA stick, if you yourself are an 8MOA shooter.

There are three mac-daddy's in the 30-06 bolt actions that are probably where you need to focus the most, all of which can be had for around $500 in factory stripped condition, but which again have yet another bewildering array of modifications and accuracy improvements available:

Winchester model 70
Remington model 700
Springfield M1903-A3

In this class, I lean towards the Springfield and especially the Remington.

I have a Remington model 721 30-06 that I inherited from my grandfather that is an insane tack-driver with zero mods, STILL, after what, 50 years?  This thing will push 0.75 MOA in factory spec after 50 years of use, and probably abuse.

There are really too many options to try and link the three above, as there is no one that will really be 'representative' of the field available.


ETA:  No matter what you choose, do please make sure you get the sling swivels, and work to ensure that those swivels will hold a 1.5" milspec sling.  If the rifle you like best only has the 1.25" swivels, then get them without and immediately get 1.5" aftermarket swivels installed.  A sling is crucial for accurate shooting, and not just for carrying it around.  Although it really is nice for carrying it around too.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

As far as a simple calc to determine one round from another, there really is no such thing.  Best thing you can get is a ballistics calculator with lots of factory loads already input.  I use iSnipe on my iPhone for the purpose, and it is better than anything I have seen on a computer or online.

Before I got iSnipe, I went to

http://www.jbmballistics.com/

clicked on "calculations" to bring me

http://www.jbmballistics.com/calcula...ulations.shtml

and then clicked on "Trajectory" to take me

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.0.cgi

Pick your round, the characteristics of your environment, and your chronometer reading for muzzle velocity if you have one, select your zero, increments, max range, energy, drop, and windage units and hit "calculate" and that will give you your ballistics, drop, drift, and energy at range.

As far as energy transfer to the target, that is more of an art than a science.  Study the various projectiles, FMJ, hollowpoint, hydroshock, etc etc etc ad infinitum.  Fortunately, almost every kind of projectile's ballistic coefficient is represented on that chart, so it will account for the fact that a hollowpoint will slow faster than a FMJ

The site also has an impressive listing of available ballistics software here

http://www.jbmballistics.com/software/software.shtml

but seem to have missed my iSnipe on the iPhone.  It DOES have KAC Bullet Flight listed though, also for iPhone, but it is crazy expensive.  Mind you, it does pretty much everything, and they even have a ruggedized case and iPhone mount for the rifle so that you can plot windage, drop, and trajectories for every shot without even breaking your cheek-weld...which is...well...insane.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

Just sent JBM a message:

I have been visiting your site for a long, long time.  2 years at least, and probably longer.  I have recommended your site to every shooter I know, and I want to thank you for providing it.

This contact is about a suggestion on your software page.

I use iSnipe for the iPhone http://isnipe.webdiligence.ca/ and I am thrilled with it.  I figure since you have KAC Bullet Flight for the iPhone, you might like iSnipe listed also.  It does not have as many features as KAC Bullet Flight, but it does have everything it needs, and is a lot less expensive.

Thanks!

Glen Bradley

----------


## GunnyFreedom

OK, I just dropped the friggin $30 on the military-grade KAC Bulletflight and right off the bat I can tell you that I do NOT like the fact they they only offer weapon profiles for weapons they offer.  This is marketed at people in the military, so where is the M16A2 20" barrel???  Seriously!  The only AR platforms they have are short-barreled, like the KAC SR16 14.5"

So unlike iSnipe (at $5) which has round and MV profiles for most anything you want, this $30 program makes you look up the data and enter it all manually?  You can't even xfer BC's without modding the existing selection of only seven rifles.

So Bulletflight has these awesome rangecards that are more useful in the field, but I have to go get my data from iSnipe because this $30 program from Knights Armament /only/ preloads their own rifles??  WTF??

----------


## GunnyFreedom

Just sent the following to Knights Armament "Bulletflight" division:

OK, I just bought Bulletflight-M

How do you /not/ have the M16A2 with a 20" 1:7 barrel ???

Your multiple selection of rifles leaves a LOT to be desired.  Really?  Seven rifles?  And the most common rifle currently in use (other than in Afghanistan) is /not/ included?

The database on iSnipe is way way more extensive, without requiring all this hand input, and that is what, a $5 app.

I like the "calculate simple" screen, but honestly that is the *only* place where your $30 app is superior to the $5 iSnipe.

I can set up a "new" weapon/round profile but how do I know that it accepted my choice from the round database?  There is no confirmation.

"calculate ballistics" only gives me ONE range?  Really??? I have to reach up and enter more data every 10 seconds if my target is moving?  REALLY????????  How about a scroll-wheel that gives data for the next closer and next further 2x 25 yd increments...like a 5-line range card that can be scrolled up & down range?

As it stands, the only way I can even use this $30 application, is to first go into the $5 iSnipe, pull up the data I need from the database, copy THAT information by hand (seeing as how they actually bother to provide it), and then enter it manually into Bulletflight.  WTF over?

Are you going to be addressing the lack of an M16A2 rifle, and the lack of a proper round database with confirmation that the selected round is in your BC profile?  If you simply listed the BC in the rounds database then at least I could visually confirm that it took.  as it is I just have to GUESS.  Guessing is NOT ACCEPTABLE n a $30 app!

Do please let me know if you intend to add more weapons profiles, and address the ambiguity in your rounds database, before I go and rate the app in the AppStore.

Glen Bradley

----------


## crushingstep7

> OK, first thing that is important to remember is that there are no blue helmets, only zombies.  Seriously, remember that.  You'll thank me later.


I sense some sarcasm, here... and ya know, schizophrenia (zombie like behavior?) is linked with a parasite found in half the world's population.  Ya never know=)





> Where I'm from, a lot of forestland, it is rare to even see 300yds past all the trees.  To get to 700 yards, you would have to find an industrial farm, a major highway, or a cutout for powerlines.  So in any case, at least around here, a 700 yd shot is rare.
> 
> Do an experiment.  Pull up Google Earth and find some known point of reference with a long field of view.  Measure out 700yds to another known point of reference and then go out and see what the distance looks like with your own eyes.  If you have a helper, stand at both points and see what a person looks like at that range.  You may be surprised.


I've been doing that for fun.  I live off of a road with a straight away of 880 yards.  That's not everywhere, but I'd say 500 is pretty common in my town.  I'll have to have my brother stand out there for me anyway.  Good idea. 

Seems to me a Remington 700 would be nice, and if I can scrape up the cash a Benelli.  I'd also like an M1A Socom II, but I don't know what to get first!!!

----------


## Dieseler

Check out that Remington 700 tack driver vid I posted a page back... Man that's a sweet rifle.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Do please let me know if you intend to add more weapons profiles, and address the ambiguity in your rounds database, before I go and rate the app in the AppStore.
> 
> Glen Bradley


I (already!!  7:17PM) received a response from the app developer who answered my message line by line, and said that the WOULD add the M16A2 and that he WOULD list the BC in the database so that I could visually confirm that the data took.

Now *THAT* is a responsive app developer!

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Check out that Remington 700 tack driver vid I posted a page back... Man that's a sweet rifle.


Not to mention the fact that with all the money you save on a Rem700 you can get a pretty nice .22

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> I've been doing that for fun.  I live off of a road with a straight away of 880 yards.  That's not everywhere, but I'd say 500 is pretty common in my town.  I'll have to have my brother stand out there for me anyway.  Good idea. 
> 
> Seems to me a Remington 700 would be nice, and if I can scrape up the cash a Benelli.  I'd also like an M1A Socom II, but I don't know what to get first!!!


That's outstanding!

It's always a good idea to get an idea of perspective so you know what you are dealing with if/when the SHTF.

I can't afford an R1 either, but MAN if I could!

Just remember about the .22lr -- 2-3 cents a round will give you a LOT more practice than 80 cents a round, and the practice is just as valuable (if not more valuable) than practice with your high power.

I know, I know, big 'manly men' don't want to be seen with a dinky little .22lr but if someone gives you $#@! for owning one, tell them that a US Marine Rifle Expert said that practice on a .22lr is not only more valuable than practice on a high power, it is also enough cheaper that you could literally buy more, bigger, and more powerful rifles with the savings on ammunition alone.

What you spend firing 1000 rounds on a .22lr is about $25 but what you spend firing 1000 rounds of .308 30-06 or .223 is closer to $800.  The difference is, clearly, enough to buy a whole 'nuther rifle.

----------


## crushingstep7

> Actually, not as much as you think...
> 
> talking about shooting blue helmets will put you on certain undesirable radar screens, while talking about shooting zombies will just get you dismissed as a tinfoil hatter, while the folks who count will still know what you are talking about.


Ah, well zombies are a real possibility.  Almost more likely to me lol
There's a parasite called Toxoplasma Gondii that takes over the brains of rats, makes them run up to cats, and get eaten.  The parasite is linked with schizophrenic behavior, and half of the human population is estimated to be 'infected' with it.  Thankfully our immune systems keep it at bay... although it lays dormant in the brains of many... 





> I can't afford an R1 either, but MAN if I could!
> 
> I know, I know, big 'manly men' don't want to be seen with a dinky little .22lr..


Well, hey, I'm in no position to be manly.  All I care about is knowing what I'm doing.  I was THIS close to having a Ruger 10/22 a couple months ago, for Appleseeds and the like, but had to buy groceries instead=(  Oh well.  Eventually.  I agree with you %100, though.

Just out of curiosity, do you have combat experience, Gunny?  And what was your occupational specialty?  Sorry if I'm bein nosey here, you just seem like a well rounded guy and I'm curious.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Ah, well zombies are a real possibility.  Almost more likely to me lol
> There's a parasite called Toxoplasma Gondii that takes over the brains of rats, makes them run up to cats, and get eaten.  The parasite is linked with schizophrenic behavior, and half of the human population is estimated to be 'infected' with it.  Thankfully our immune systems keep it at bay... although it lays dormant in the brains of many... 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, hey, I'm in no position to be manly.  All I care about is knowing what I'm doing.  I was THIS close to having a Ruger 10/22 a couple months ago, for Appleseeds and the like, but had to buy groceries instead=(  Oh well.  Eventually.  I agree with you %100, though.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, do you have combat experience, Gunny?  And what was your occupational specialty?  Sorry if I'm bein nosey here, you just seem like a well rounded guy and I'm curious.


No combat, I was in between the two sandbox wars, though there was this thing about looking for US remains in Vietnam, and LOTS of exercises.

I'm chuckling about the 'well rounded' part though -- I was an intelligence analyst, and that's actually what they were going for in training us.  We used to call ourselves "Jack of all trades, master of none" because we had to know 'just enough to be dangerous' in every MOS in the Marine Corps to be in intelligence.  

We had to know just enough about logistics to do that job, infantry, airframes, artillery, ops, admin, etc etc etc.  It's funny because that's what the chain of command was actually_ going for_ when training our MOS.  They want most MOS to be specialists, but intelligence to be _extreme_ generalists.

So I end up knowing just 'a little bit' about every MOS in the Corps.

The idea, of course, is that by knowing how a _whole_ military works, we will be better equipped to predict what an enemy force is doing/planning.

Truth be told though, they pulled me out in the middle of Boot Camp and asked me to switch MOS to Intell.  If I had stuck with my original choice, Fleet Antiterrorist Security Team (remember, this was in January 1993, before _either_ of the WTC attacks) I'd probably still be in.  I was really made to be a lifer, and created to be special forces.  Admin jobs were _not_ my cup of tea.

----------


## Pericles

> Now, 700 yds is an _awful_ long way away.  To hit an 18" circle you would need to not only fire within 2.5 MOA, but to put it into a 2.5 MOA circle AFTER accounting for drop and wind.  Removing wind effect, that's equivalent to a 2.5" group at 100yds, or 0.6" group at 25yds.
> 
> ...............
> 
> Now that said, to reach out reliably to that distance and still have the energy you want, I would not go lighter than a 30-06.
> 
> Now, 30-06 has been around since...well...1906.  So there are a bewildering array of rifles chambered for the round.
> 
> ............
> ...


I went with the original 1903 with a K98 as the backup. The '03 Springfield pictured has a serial number from 1914 and a "new" barrel replaced in 1942 (dated Dec '41). Truly impressive inside the rifleman's quarter mile.



They have sights for way far away, but you have to remember the tactics of this time when the first models of these rifles entered service were evolving from the linier tactical formations of the 19th Century to fire and maneuver of the 20th Century. At great distance, you aimed at the enemy formation, with a probability of hitting someone. The odds of hitting the specific individual who may have been the aim point were not so high as to cause panic on the other end of the shot.

----------


## Ethek

I got a stainless 10/22 with a Zytec stock for a 199$ steal at a local shop. Already had fitings for a scope.  How do I fit this for a can on the end if I wanted?  Whats involved? 

It is my go to shtf weapon. I use it to keep varmits out of the garden.

----------


## Dieseler

/////

----------


## crushingstep7

This is so awesome! lol 

(God I sound sutpid)

----------


## crushingstep7

> No combat, I was in between the two sandbox wars, though there was this thing about looking for US remains in Vietnam, and LOTS of exercises.
> 
> I'm chuckling about the 'well rounded' part though -- I was an intelligence analyst, and that's actually what they were going for in training us.  We used to call ourselves "Jack of all trades, master of none" because we had to know 'just enough to be dangerous' in every MOS in the Marine Corps to be in intelligence.  
> 
> We had to know just enough about logistics to do that job, infantry, airframes, artillery, ops, admin, etc etc etc.  It's funny because that's what the chain of command was actually_ going for_ when training our MOS.  They want most MOS to be specialists, but intelligence to be _extreme_ generalists.
> 
> So I end up knowing just 'a little bit' about every MOS in the Corps.
> 
> The idea, of course, is that by knowing how a _whole_ military works, we will be better equipped to predict what an enemy force is doing/planning.
> ...


Ah, nice.  The Marines know how to get the job done, obviously.  Your MOS makes sense then.. personally I think knowing a little bit of everything and being able to do it is important.  Some quote I read about that - "specialization is for insects". haha
Gotta be good to know you can keep your family safe

By the way, do you think the Marine Corps would follow the president's orders to violate the Constitution?  I hope to God it wouldn't happen, I really do.  But I don't know many Marines, and I know that orders are orders inside the Corps

Thanks for your time, Gunny.  I'm learning a lot.

----------


## phill4paul

> This is just me, but why is everyone so worried about hunting squirrels when humans are going to be murdering eachother over any food or possesions they have?  That is, if we're put in that kind of position where varmints are the main source of food..
> 
> Again - this is just me, but I'm getting a decent rifle first, maybe a .22 later, and stocking up dry foods/seeds.  This way, I can have 6 months of dry food and be able to start a small garden/food production area and be able to guard it as well.
> 
> Don't get me wrong... I think everyone should have a .22.  But considering this stuff could deteriorate any day, don'tcha think it'd be safer?


  I've kinda been following this thread and haven't really contributed crushingstep, but thought I would add my thoughts here. 

  The .22 isn't just about slaughtering vermin'. It is about the ability to practice proper form without having to spend a lot of money. 

  A fighter once told me, "Practice incorrectly and infrequently and your muscles and mind will perform in this manner when you have the need for it."

  I have kin in Alabama that have discussed the year they had a Thanksgiving deer taken w/ a .22 by my Uncle. That's game meat. Not Vermin. And speaks well of a .22 lethality.

----------


## Uriel999

If your only going to have one gun...have a .22.

----------


## Zeeder

> If your only going to have one gun...have a .22.


I second this. I have a lever action henry 22lr. If things go to crap, and I have to run/hide. Am I going to grab my shotgun and run? My .223 assault rifle?

No. I'm going to grab my 22lr. Why? Because for every 100 shotgun shells, I can carry 4000 rounds of 22lr ammo in the same amount of space. Even for the 223, I can carry 500 rounds for every 100. And i can do it for far less money.

  I can surprise a "zombie" or two along the way and take his stuff if that's where were headed. Zombies can here my 223 from miles away. I don't want more zombies coming.

Now, if I'm staying and defending my house against zombies(but really more likely thugs, not zombies). 12 gauge withing 50 yards of the house, or in it. My girlfriend will be using the 223.

----------


## crushingstep7

Sorry, forgot about the fact that you can take a deer with one.  

But I think we all know how quickly deer will disappear if things got bad... Nothing against a .22, though.  It's all a matter of unpredictable circumstances.

----------


## Uriel999

> My .223 assault rifle?


You have a machine gun! Sweet!

----------


## Oyate

> I second this. I have a lever action henry 22lr. If things go to crap, and I have to run/hide. Am I going to grab my shotgun and run? My .223 assault rifle?
> 
> No. I'm going to grab my 22lr. Why? Because for every 100 shotgun shells, I can carry 4000 rounds of 22lr ammo in the same amount of space. Even for the 223, I can carry 500 rounds for every 100. And i can do it for far less money.
> 
>   I can surprise a "zombie" or two along the way and take his stuff if that's where were headed. Zombies can here my 223 from miles away. I don't want more zombies coming.
> 
> Now, if I'm staying and defending my house against zombies(but really more likely thugs, not zombies). 12 gauge withing 50 yards of the house, or in it. My girlfriend will be using the 223.


what your really want to do is grab the assault rifle, the .22, the Mosin, the Garant, the .50 cal, all of the spotting equipment, the hunting dog, the maps, the night vision goggles, the mosquitto netting, the poorno, the beer, the Dinty Moore's stew, the camp stove, the tent and the flash light and try to run 2 miles.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Ah, nice.  The Marines know how to get the job done, obviously.  Your MOS makes sense then.. personally I think knowing a little bit of everything and being able to do it is important.  Some quote I read about that - "specialization is for insects". haha
> Gotta be good to know you can keep your family safe
> 
> By the way, do you think the Marine Corps would follow the president's orders to violate the Constitution?  I hope to God it wouldn't happen, I really do.  But I don't know many Marines, and I know that orders are orders inside the Corps
> 
> Thanks for your time, Gunny.  I'm learning a lot.


Sorry about the delay, I have been breaking my back to build a new website located here:

http://vancencgop.com/

and I have a State Executive Committee meeting today at noon; so a lot of politics on my plate, to say the least.

The truth is, contrary to public perception, that the Marines may be the least "robotic" of all the branches.  Independent thinking is prized, and we have a higher incidence of Marines spending time int he brig for breaking a captain's jaw than any service I know of.

The Marines tend to be unaware that 'official' channels exist for disputing improper orders, and even if they were aware are unlikely to use them, as culturally that would be a HUGE no-no.

But we tend to be reactionary, and an order from a field-grade officer to fire on American civilians would probably end up with a grenade in the head, and some poor corporal in the brig awaiting execution.

There will always be that 5% who will "just follow orders" no matter what, but they are always ridiculed as brown nosers butt kissers &c.    

So yeah, orders are orders, but jacked up orders foment open rebellion.

I know that from the OUTSIDE, Marines have this public image of being the most 'robotic' of everybody.  Jar-heads = screw off the lid and pour in whatever crap you want them to do.  I guess that's because when we have *proper* orders, we follow them without an ounce of hesitation, and that includes really stupid stuff like charging machine gun nests.  But even that is a "proper" order.

But improper orders don't get the same treatment, and the Marines really do prize independent thought.  Of the...5...branches, I would honestly expect the Marines to have the /lowest/ percentage of those who obey the President were he to order Marines to round up civilians and confiscate weapons.

But then, the Marines were the only branch I experienced from the inside, so who knows?

In the Army, the more independent thinkers tend to gravitate towards either tech or pogue jobs, OR SOCOM jobs, neither of which would be tasked in such a thing.  The 'ordinary' straight-leg infantry and MP's in the Army are more block-headed because of that gravitation of independent thinkers towards SOCOM and tech fields, whereas the Marines try to keep a more even distribution of their radicals.  The thinking amongst the Corps was (until about 2 years ago) that "ALL Marines are Special Forces" (now we have a MARSOC) and the Corps is still in the transition stage for that.

USMC MP's are a bit more block-headed than what is average for the Corps and the infantry.  One thing that sets Marines apart is that ASVAB and IQ scoring stays pretty average across the whole spectrum of combat arms, while in the Army the "bright lights" usually get shifted into SOCOM, leaving an average deficit in the 'ordinary' infantry.

I think that robotic obedience is related to a lack of independent thought, and that lack is related to raw intelligence.  Thus the USAF would be very likely to disobey such orders, but really none of their personnel would even be in a position to receive such orders in the first place.  Likewise the Navy, with only limited exposure wrt the Seabees possibly constructing detention centers, and they could be lied to.

So really the only two US services at risk for such a thing would be the US Army, and the US Marine Corps.  The job would NOT be a SOCOM type job at all, so that leaves straight-leg infantry and MP's

The MP's from both services tend to be pretty thick, (on AVERAGE, not as a RULE) so maybe 20 to 30% would pull equally from both.  The basic infantry in the Army is more likely to obey (20-25%?) because their bright ones usually get shuffled up to SOCOM leaving a higher percentage of dim soldiers behind.  The Marine basic infantry is less likely to obey (10-15%?) because of an 'institutional memory' where for the last 150 years, they kept their operators embedded into basic infantry in order to justify the argument that "all of the Marine Corps is Special Forces" and it is only in the last 20 months or so that there has been a real focus on the formation of specific MARSOF units, so there has not been much of an 'intelligence deficit' from the basic infantry as of yet.

But again, I only experienced the Marines from the inside, and my Army friends are all SOCOM, so I can't really speak to that from firsthand knowledge at all.

----------


## crushingstep7

Well Gunny, I guess that gives me hope.

I think we could easily see unrest among the population - and then we could expect the National Guard, maybe the Army to come in for crowd control.  

Just hoping this won't be the Battle of Armageddon.
But yeah, everyone could chime in on this:

what are YOU doing to prepare?? And an explanation of the steps you're taking would be interesting.  Thanks everyone, this has been a great post!

----------


## Pericles

> Marines and Army material.


No doubt true about the Marines and is the same as my experience working with Marines.

The Army has changed dramatically in the last 20 years. The officers with leadership, above average smarts, and military aptitude went in the the combat arms - with Artillery and armor getting the "brightest" and Special Forces getting the combination of super warriors and innovators. Intel and Engineers got the high IQ types who were just a bit too mental for good decision making. The more average officers were in supply,  administration, and transportation. Signal and Chemical got the detail oriented officers.

The Service branches got in a bind in the late '80s and got permission to raid the Combat arms branches captains for talent, and since then, Army leadership has been more of a free for all, and hard to see any real attempt to put talent to best use - fighting two or more wars with a peacetime based personnel system is the root cause.

I'm not as confident that the Army has the real talent in the line Infantry and Armor units to be their best. In the case on improper orders, some will follow them (especially those at the senior level who have benefited from a dysfunctional promotion system that rewards PC thought), and others will maintain fidelity to the Constitution and their fellow citizens.

----------


## Pericles

> Well Gunny, I guess that gives me hope.
> 
> I think we could easily see unrest among the population - and then we could expect the National Guard, maybe the Army to come in for crowd control.  
> 
> Just hoping this won't be the Battle of Armageddon.
> But yeah, everyone could chime in on this:
> 
> what are YOU doing to prepare?? And an explanation of the steps you're taking would be interesting.  Thanks everyone, this has been a great post!


We probably need a new thread on this. Some info I'll post, but some things must not be posted for reasons of Operational Security (OPSEC). But, I'll be happy to share strategy and thought process, so you can devise a plan right for you.

----------


## Dieseler

> We probably need a new thread on this. Some info I'll post, but some things must not be posted for reasons of Operational Security (OPSEC). But, I'll be happy to share strategy and thought process, so you can devise a plan right for you.


I for one look forward to that Sir.
Thanks.

----------


## crushingstep7

> We probably need a new thread on this. Some info I'll post, but some things must not be posted for reasons of Operational Security (OPSEC). But, I'll be happy to share strategy and thought process, so you can devise a plan right for you.


Same here.  Obviously none of us would want you to divulge anything that might get you into trouble.
But I'll say this much - I support our troops %100.  

Can't wait for that new thread!!

----------


## AFPVet

I suggest the AR-10 Carbine. With my AR10A2C, I can empty a 20 round mag almost as fast as I could with a M4 on semi. Now if you're looking to carry a lot of rounds a good ruck... you might want to look at the 6.8SPC, 7.62X39 or even 5.56. However, with the added punch of .308, you can be sure that your rounds will go through cover. Another option would obviously be the FAL.

----------


## Charlie41

Lost of good info on here. 
GunnyFreedom, I got to had it to ya man, you have retained a lot of knowledge.

But this poor fellow's first statement was, *"On a budget"*

With this in mind.

Home defense.   Shot gun, small caliber pistol with the proper ammo.  You don't want to shoot the neighbors. 

Hunting.   Everything posted before is great. But on a budget, I would have to agree with A.K. (the man)

For 100 to 300 yards a cheap weapon, and cheap ammo you can not beat an SKS/AK.  And contrary to popular belief, you can be accurate with this ammo, I have one, and @ 100 yards I can keep a group under 2.5",and it's a paratrooper, and no, it will be no where near as accurate as the .223 in a AR15.  But the AK/SKS will not jam up on you as fast either.

The .22 for plinking is a great idea, I have a couple myself for this reason.  But do not think that you will not have to practice with your main weapon, because you will.

As far as reaching out there.  I have a tack driver. Remington 700, 7MM Mag.  I got it for $500.00 with a good scope, But the ammo is not budget friendly. 

If you had not said "Budget"  I would have recommended a .308 or 300 Mag. semi auto on a AR platform for hunting and long range shots.

----------


## TruckinMike

edit

----------


## AFPVet

deleted

----------


## AFPVet

Well I guess it depends on the "budget"... but I would say that the FAL would probably be the next best .308 to the AR-10. I bought my AR-10A2C _on a budget_knowing that some things you have to pay for.

----------


## crushingstep7

I know this thread is a tad old, but I got my Mossy!! =)



Anyway, now that I have it...
*ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ. 
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ. 
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ EMPTUM SATANA.*

----------


## Dieseler

I reckon you'll have to translate that last bit before I can feel good about congratulating you.

----------


## crushingstep7

No problem lol

Latin for..

"Come and get 'em, come and get 'em, come and get 'em, Satanic Empire."

33 being a sorta lucky number for me.  When the Persians demanded that Spartans lay down their arms at Thermopylae, and that their lives would be spared, they replied "Molon Labe" or "Come and get them."

They were indomitable spirits, and if they had laid down their arms instead of surrendering, many back home would have lost their lives.  They delayed the enemy for just long enough.  I apologize if this is redundant and you've heard all this before.

----------


## Dieseler

> No problem lol
> 
> Latin for..
> 
> "Come and get 'em, come and get 'em, come and get 'em, Satanic Empire."
> 
> 33 being a sorta lucky number for me.  When the Persians demanded that Spartans lay down their arms at Thermopylae, and that their lives would be spared, they replied "Molon Labe" or "Come and get them."
> 
> They were indomitable spirits, and if they had laid down their arms instead of surrendering, many back home would have lost their lives.  They delayed the enemy for just long enough.  I apologize if this is redundant and you've heard all this before.


Congrats on the Mossberg.

----------


## crushingstep7

> Congrats on the Mossberg.


Thank you very much, Sir.  It's my first firearm
I'm so happy lol

----------


## Uriel999

> Thank you very much, Sir.  It's my first firearm
> I'm so happy lol


Good for you! Now you just gotta know something...they multiply!

----------


## Pericles

> Latin for..
> 
> "Come and get 'em, come and get 'em, come and get 'em, Satanic Empire."


Point of order....

I will believe that you will find the quote originates from Greek. Legend is that "Molon Labe" is the response by King Leonidas of Sparta to the demand by Xerses king of Persia to the demand that the Spartans lay down their arms and surrender. Thus, the battle of Thermopalae, which starts the second Greco-Persian War was on.

Later, "Come and Take It" was the legend on the flag of the citizens of Gonzales, Texas when the Army of Mexico demanded the return of the cannon in possession of the citizens. This was the start of the Texas revolution.

----------


## crushingstep7

> Point of order....
> 
> I will believe that you will find the quote originates from Greek. Legend is that "Molon Labe" is the response by King Leonidas of Sparta to the demand by Xerses king of Persia to the demand that the Spartans lay down their arms and surrender. Thus, the battle of Thermopalae, which starts the second Greco-Persian War was on.
> 
> Later, "Come and Take It" was the legend on the flag of the citizens of Gonzales, Texas when the Army of Mexico demanded the return of the cannon in possession of the citizens. This was the start of the Texas revolution.


You know your history better than me, and I did make in error in saying that the phrase was Latin.  I apologize, and thanks for making me aware of that.

And Uriel, trust me, I've already got the itch.  
I had a paycheck of $600 and I almost blew every dollar of it on a Russian M41/90 AND a Mossy - even though I've never owned a firearm.  It just seems right. 

I still plan to add to my arsenal; at least one more tool in the next 3 months.

----------


## crushingstep7

Oh, and I'm sure everyone knows this - but people are in buying weapons all day long at Dick's (yes, the local store is 45 mins away and it's a month long delivery).  

If you're reading this as a guest, COUGH*THATSYOU*COUGH, arm yourself now and prepare to defend not only your family, property, and your life - but your liberties as well.  Defending anything is a liberty in itself the elitists and tax mongers aren't comfortable with us having.

----------


## Pericles

> .....If you're reading this as a guest, COUGH*THATSYOU*COUGH, arm yourself now and prepare to defend not only your family, property, and your life - but your liberties as well.  Defending anything is a liberty in itself the elitists and tax mongers aren't comfortable with us having.


The lives you save by doing so may those of yourself and family.

----------


## crushingstep7

^
|
|
|
|
|
Former soldier, as are many others on this forum.  I am a college student.  Groups of people from all over, no matter how different or what point of their lives they're in.. all understand and love one thing - FREEDOM.

=)

----------


## jkm1864

> Hey everyone,
> 
> I'm pretty broke, being a college student and all - but this is important to me so I'm willing to throw down a good amount (up to $2,000?)
> 
> I'm getting closer and closer.  Problem is, I don't know what would best suit my needs.
> 
> 
> Here's what I'm thinking:
> 
> ...




OK here is my advice ... I would buy a S&W MP15R which is a AR-15 that shoots the 5.45X39. The reason I say this is because the ammo is real close to .223 but costs a lot less. The ammo more than likely costs about 300 bucks for 1000 rounds...

If You go with a AR the ammo cost about 500 bucks for 1000 rounds...

If You go with a .308 the ammo costs about 750+ for 1000 rounds...

Not much point in having a combat rifle if You can't afford to shoot it right?

Oh btw the MP15R probably cost about 1100 dollars... So You could buy all Your stuff with it like sites, mags, slings, & ammo for under 2k.

----------


## jkm1864

> Well... I'm a pretty heavy sleeper. I've slept through fire alarms and was left to die once. So pretty close (Mossberg 500). 
> 
> 
> Pericles, I'm in Rochester - and although the City of Rochester doesn't allow "assualt weapons" I'm in the Town of Greece, so I'm assuming our Bloomberg loving Mayor can kiss my ass.
> 
> 
> Gunny, my circumstances are these: 
> I need a rifle that can effectively deal with threats within 300 yards (main concern) but can also deal with targets well outside of that. How far outside of that, I don't know, but the further the better. 
> Also, my targets have yet to present themselves, but home-invaders on drugs are a big one. After that I'm just considering gun-confiscators.
> ...



You can't get a Socom II for under 2000 dollars. I have a scout and I assure You people are proud of the M1A and everything about it is very expensive..

If You really want one though I wouldn't fault You on the purchase. The new M1A has the rail system from the Socom which looks sweeeeet but I can assure You You won't be able to shoot it because .308 is pretty expensive...

----------


## crushingstep7

> You can't get a Socom II for under 2000 dollars. I have a scout and I assure You people are proud of the M1A and everything about it is very expensive..
> 
> If You really want one though I wouldn't fault You on the purchase. The new M1A has the rail system from the Socom which looks sweeeeet but I can assure You You won't be able to shoot it because .308 is pretty expensive...




How available is this ammo?  And in a dry up, will it even exist anymore?
I *am* concerned about the price of ammo... but I'm more concerned with emergency situations and how my rifle will do.  

Anyway, I got to shoulder an M1A (standard) and I honestly didn't like the way it fit into my shoulder.  Is this a serious problem?  
One of the reasons I like this rifle is because it meets NY's ridiculous "Assault Weapons" ban, which has no sunset.  
The M1A also has a hard hitting round, which I like.  

I see a Socom on Gunsamerica for 1859.. good enough for me!
I'm still really bent up about this.  I have no idea what to shoot for (no pun intended).

I'll have the money in June, and I can't say I want to wait any longer than that to purchase a rifle... argh

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## jkm1864

> Reading reviews, looks like the M&P15-22 is universally loved /except/ for a single forum where everyone keeps reporting jamming issues.
> 
> It's kinda weird, usually if a weapon had jamming issues, it will be on several forums, and not just on one forum.  
> 
> Here is the forum with several bad reviews
> 
> But like I said, every other place I find reviewing this weapon universally loves it, and do not have any kind of malfunctions whatsoever.
> 
> So there is a single forum giving out horrible reviews while every other forum loves it.  I am failing to come up with a valid explanation of what that would be, unless that forum is predisposed to dislike Smith & Wesson???  
> ...




The jamming issues are more than likely caused by cheap ammo. I have a GSG-5 and it only likes certain types of ammo. I used Remington and Winchester which caused jams, stove pipes, & failure to fire. I thought it was the rifle until I used the federal blue box. After I changed ammo I think I had a FTF once out of 100 rounds.

I would get the S&W .22 if I had the money. If the S&W .22 was out when I purchased the GSG-5 I would of bought it instead.

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## GunnyFreedom

> How available is this ammo?  And in a dry up, will it even exist anymore?
> I *am* concerned about the price of ammo... but I'm more concerned with emergency situations and how my rifle will do.  
> 
> Anyway, I got to shoulder an M1A (standard) and I honestly didn't like the way it fit into my shoulder.  Is this a serious problem?  
> One of the reasons I like this rifle is because it meets NY's ridiculous "Assault Weapons" ban, which has no sunset.  
> The M1A also has a hard hitting round, which I like.  
> 
> I see a Socom on Gunsamerica for 1859.. good enough for me!
> I'm still really bent up about this.  I have no idea what to shoot for (no pun intended).
> ...


.308 and .30-06 are far and away the most common hunting rounds used in America today.  .308 used to be an order of magnitude more common, but it has a military use, so now .30-06 is slightly easier to find in bulk than .308

In any case, both of them are BRUTALLY common -- especially in the US.

See some random dude with a deer rifle? 45% says it's a .308 and 40% says it's a .30-06

If the SHTF, then .308 and .30-06 will be right on the top of the buy-trade-sell lists, and you can take _that_ to the bank!  (for real though, not like Obama's promise to tend the wars)

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## Pericles

Personally, I would avoid the East Bloc calibers. AFAIK, only 7.62x39 is made here, and that in small quantities as the price can't compete with the cheap imports.

Notice I said cheap imports, which means in case you really need this stuff, it is unlikely to be (A) imported or (B) cheap. Therefore, you would need to stockpile a lifetime supply, with the idea that how much you stockpile will influence your lifetime.

If you don't like 5.56. as underpowered, then 5.45x39 is even worse. If you go for the 7.62x54 for the ballistics, you will end up with either a Mosin bolt, or one of the wanna be Drags, which will end up costing you as much s a good .30-06. in either case (except maybe for a M-1 Garand), you have invested in a secondary weapon.

Market prices vary, 1000 rounds of 5.56 is now tending toward $350 for 55gr. and $450 for 62gr. The 7.63x39 looks like it is down to below $250. The cost savings would then run about 1000 rounds based on difference in cost of rifle, plus 30% more ammo. Tredeoff is that you have to stockpile more to mitigate risk of supply. That just does not work for me, but YMMV.

If you go same supplier, and shoot the cheap 5.56 now with a view of having a higher quality war reserve, 1000 rounds of Wolf can be had for $200 in 7.62x39 and $240 for 55gr. 5.56.

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## AFPVet

I would have to agree with the consensus of the .308 or .30-06 twins for caliber. They are both tried, true and plentiful.

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## crushingstep7

Yeah, I think I'll end up getting a bolt in .30-06 and semi in .308.  Thank you for the suggestion, though, JKM.  I do appreciate the feedback.

I do have to get myself a Mosin, though.. with how cheap they are ($150) I can't pass that up!

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## chudrockz

> Yeah, I think I'll end up getting a bolt in .30-06 and semi in .308.  Thank you for the suggestion, though, JKM.  I do appreciate the feedback.
> 
> I do have to get myself a Mosin, though.. with how cheap they are ($150) I can't pass that up!


There's a really nice one for sale right now at www.classicarms.us for $99.

My wife got me one a year ago for my birthday and I love it.

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## crushingstep7

AH MAN! I wish I had the money... thing is, is I'd like to inspect the barrel myself, etc

But it says it's in good condition.  (note: frustration)

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## phill4paul

> AH MAN! I wish I had the money... thing is, is I'd like to inspect the barrel myself, etc
> 
> But it says it's in good condition.  (note: frustration)


  Don't get the Mosin. I was hyped about them myself. Fired one that a friend had. I thought it a good rifle for what it was. Not a bad shootin' rifle and they can be had for $100. If you only have $100 then it is a great deal on a good rifle. 
  However, if your of limited means you'll start carrying your rifle, shootin', huntin' etc.
  It'll seem like a damn heavy rifle and you'll think to yourself, self, I could buy a composite stock and lighten the load. So you'll spend another $60 bucks.
  Now you got $160 into your MN. 
  Then you'll practice a bunch and decide that since you are hitting further out you will need a scope. Well, at this point unless you are a gunsmith you may have to pay out a bit more.
  End game: Save your money unless you are a collector. Plenty of good rifles out there in .308 for around 1/3 more then you will put into getting into fully functional shape.

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## phill4paul

On a side note check with your local traders newpaper if you have one. There is some good deals to be had out there.
  On one side the retailers are jacking up the price because sales are up. On the other there are people willing to part with their firearm(and often rarely fired) at a reasonable price because they are out of a job and they need heating oil this season.
  Don't go retail. Check for local sellers.

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## crushingstep7

> On a side note check with your local traders newpaper if you have one. There is some good deals to be had out there.
>   On one side the retailers are jacking up the price because sales are up. On the other there are people willing to part with their firearm(and often rarely fired) at a reasonable price because they are out of a job and they need heating oil this season.
>   Don't go retail. Check for local sellers.


I definitely see your point.  Didn't think about that.  But in all honesty, it'd be my "fun rifle", kind of a collector thing, but I *would* be firing the thing.  So I'll definitely keep that stuff in mind lol

Thanks man (or woman, I don't know)

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## phill4paul

> Thanks man (or woman, I don't know)


  LOL. Man, man. He also had an Japanese Arisaka that I found much lighter, less kick and more accurate. If your doing it for collectability then research some. I believe there are three marks that determine a complete piece on the MN. Not sure though.

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## crushingstep7

> LOL. Man, man. He also had an Japanese Arisaka that I found much lighter, less kick and more accurate. If your doing it for collectability then research some. I believe there are three marks that determine a complete piece on the MN. Not sure though.


Hey.. we all know how politically correct everyone has to be these days... don't want some blood-sucking, liberal, "equality" feminist biting my head off. lol

And yeah, I know there's two types of receivers as well.. hex and round, I believe? From what I remember, Hex is the better one.

Have to look that up - anyone with sites off hand, that'd be lovely

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## chudrockz

This is a good site for Mosin Nagant info:

http://7.62x54r.net/

Also, the hex receivers are, I believe, functionally equivalent to the rounds, just a bit less common and thus more desireable from a collector standpoint.

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## crushingstep7

Thanks, Chud!

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## langoley

Think about a remington 760 or 7600 pump,they are just as fast to shoot and probably more accurate than most semi's.They can be had used in many calibers for $250-$350.

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## osan

> Hey everyone,
> 
> I'm pretty broke, being a college student and all - but this is important to me so I'm willing to throw down a good amount (up to $2,000?)
> 
> I'm getting closer and closer.  Problem is, I don't know what would best suit my needs.
> 
> 
> Here's what I'm thinking:
> 
> ...


You don't say much about what you will use it for.

Anyhow, the M1A is an excellent rifle.  I have a National Match (wanna buy it?).

It is a bit unwieldy for close quarters in the house, but if you have to have a rifle and cannot afford a shotgun as well, the M1A should be fine.  I think it is one of the finest combat rifles ever made.

Depending on what you want do use the rifle for, the Browning BAR (sport, not military) is perhaps the most accurate production semiauto ever made.  It just doesn't look very "tactical", but you can pick up a pristine one in 308 for perhaps $700 to $800.  It really is an excellent gun.

If accuracy is your paramount concern, you will want a bolt gun.  For the money you cannot beat a Savage.  Their triggers are very good and their accuracy is top flight.  Chances are the rifle will be better than you are for several years.  I would avoid Remington 700s and even Winchester Model 70s.  They are OK, but the Savage is a WAY better deal for the money.  A 10FP in 308 would be all the gun you would need for a very long time, for about $600.  Put another $300 into some Nikon glass and you would have a hell of a package.

Good luck.

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## osan

> Well... I'm a pretty heavy sleeper. I've slept through fire alarms and was left to die once. So pretty close (Mossberg 500). 
> 
> 
> Pericles, I'm in Rochester - and although the City of Rochester doesn't allow "assualt weapons" I'm in the Town of Greece, so I'm assuming our Bloomberg loving Mayor can kiss my ass.


NY state really sucks.  It's like a big version of NJ.  




> Gunny, my circumstances are these: 
> I need a rifle that can effectively deal with threats within 300 yards (main concern) but can also deal with targets well outside of that. How far outside of that, I don't know, but the further the better.


Whoa there...  have you ever shot at 300 yards?  Not as easy as it may sound when the target isn't standing still for you.  "Threats" beyond 500 yards you don't shoot at.  You run and hide from unless you are actually fighting in a war.

Unless open warfare breaks out here in the USA, and that is not an impossibility though remote, an AR15 would do you well.  Some say the 5.56 is not powerful enough, yet not one of those has volunteered to get on the wrong end of one to prove the claim.  The AR15 is good for 500-600 yards in terms of stopping a human threat.  Past that it is a bit underpowered, but accuracy is quite good.  And a really bit advantage is weight.  At 6#, iit is 35% lighter than an M1A.  If you have to carry it around, you will be glad to have a lighter weapon.  I'm on 100 acres and carrying even a short barreled shotgun can get tedious within minutes.




> Also, my targets have yet to present themselves, but home-invaders on drugs are a big one. After that I'm just considering gun-confiscators.


Unless you have lots of friends to back you up, you'd be better off letting them have the guns.  Live to fight another day. 






> I've wanted to be a Marine my whole life (18 right now) but I can't bring myself to fight for unconstitutional wars. It sucks.


Those who sign up now are very misguided IMO.  You sound like a smart young man.  Stay home.  Sign up when the Iranian marines are landing on the shores of NJ.

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## osan

> Yeah, it's bad... I'm no marksmen by anymeans but I totally agree.  I bought the AK, I would have an AR 15 now if I could do it over.


That'll learn ye.

AKs hit harder than ARs _when_ they hit.  The problem is they are not very accurate at all.  The AR just wipes the floor with them in every way except reliability.  The AK is such a childish design, it is almost impossible for it not to go <bang> when you pull the trigger.  The AR is far more sophisticated and therefore requires some maintenance, but in my experience not all that much.

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## Pericles

> That'll learn ye.
> 
> AKs hit harder than ARs _when_ they hit.  The problem is they are not very accurate at all.  The AR just wipes the floor with them in every way except reliability.  The AK is such a childish design, it is almost impossible for it not to go <bang> when you pull the trigger.  The AR is far more sophisticated and therefore requires some maintenance, but in my experience not all that much.


This, although it isn't that hard to make an AK stop working with a little effort. As I have posted previously, there is a relationship between ammunition, weapon, and tactics. East bloc weapons are designed for mass assault firing mass quantities of ammunition as short range (less than 150 meters). As part of that strategy, quality control on the production of the weapon and ammunition is not of the six sigma variety. It is only important that a number of soldiers can put rounds downrange. Fire enough rounds, and there is a good chance of hitting something eventually, as the survivors get closer to the opponent.

If you have a different type of plan, weapons designed for accuracy will probably be more useful to you.

----------


## AFPVet

> That'll learn ye.
> 
> AKs hit harder than ARs _when_ they hit.  The problem is they are not very accurate at all.  The AR just wipes the floor with them in every way except reliability.  The AK is such a childish design, it is almost impossible for it not to go <bang> when you pull the trigger.  The AR is far more sophisticated and therefore requires some maintenance, but in my experience not all that much.


I like the AR-10  Playing with the big boys

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## Austrian Econ Disciple

Hey Gunny, what do you think about a 98K Mauser for 600+ yards. You can get them pretty cheap, and they are immensely accurate. Good ol' German engineering. Just need to put a good scope on. I'd also have to learn wind calculation, height calcs, and all sorts of other stuff so not sure if I would even try at ranges exceeding at 600 to 750+ yards. 

I have my MSAR STG556 for CQB and Med. Range. I know some people don't like bullpup configs, but with an OAL around 27-30" with a 20" barrel it makes a fine setup. AUG's are also known for their reliability and durability. I can also switch to a 16" barrel in about 20 seconds if I need to enter a house. It has near zero muzzle rise too. 

I just don't know if I could carry a 98K and my STG556 though since my pack out is all ready around 80LBS. Throwing in 8MM 98k rounds and the weapon platform will push around 100LBS on a 150LB frame isn't going to work too well  Perhaps I could go from 500Round 5.56 to 350RDS and then throw in 70 rounds of 8MM. What do you think Gunny?

Also if you could, could you read my post in the 5 Min Bug-out thread and post up what you think? Thanks.

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## Austrian Econ Disciple

> This, although it isn't that hard to make an AK stop working with a little effort. As I have posted previously, there is a relationship between ammunition, weapon, and tactics. East bloc weapons are designed for mass assault firing mass quantities of ammunition as short range (less than 150 meters). As part of that strategy, quality control on the production of the weapon and ammunition is not of the six sigma variety. It is only important that a number of soldiers can put rounds downrange. Fire enough rounds, and there is a good chance of hitting something eventually, as the survivors get closer to the opponent.
> 
> If you have a different type of plan, weapons designed for accuracy will probably be more useful to you.


Pericles could I get your take on the MSAR STG 556 E4 with 20" barrel setup and EOtech 557 with the EOtech G23.FTS flip-out 3x Mag sight. 

Curious what your take is, thanks.

Pic of the sights here:

http://www.eotech-inc.com/product.php?id=37&cat=3

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## Austrian Econ Disciple

> NY state really sucks.  It's like a big version of NJ.  
> 
> 
> 
> Whoa there...  have you ever shot at 300 yards?  Not as easy as it may sound when the target isn't standing still for you.  "Threats" beyond 500 yards you don't shoot at.  You run and hide from unless you are actually fighting in a war.
> 
> Unless open warfare breaks out here in the USA, and that is not an impossibility though remote, an AR15 would do you well.  Some say the 5.56 is not powerful enough, yet not one of those has volunteered to get on the wrong end of one to prove the claim.  The AR15 is good for 500-600 yards in terms of stopping a human threat.  Past that it is a bit underpowered, but accuracy is quite good.  And a really bit advantage is weight.  At 6#, iit is 35% lighter than an M1A.  If you have to carry it around, you will be glad to have a lighter weapon.  I'm on 100 acres and carrying even a short barreled shotgun can get tedious within minutes.
> 
> 
> ...


Hey Osan, what do you think about the MS2 Magpul sling? I think it makes heavier weapons a lot easier to use and carry, your thoughts?

----------


## Pericles

> Pericles could I get your take on the MSAR STG 556 E4 with 20" barrel setup and EOtech 557 with the EOtech G23.FTS flip-out 3x Mag sight. 
> 
> Curious what your take is, thanks.
> 
> Pic of the sights here:
> 
> http://www.eotech-inc.com/product.php?id=37&cat=3


Sorry, don't have much of a take as have not fired one of those.

I found the EOTech hard to use - have to adjust my head to get the reticle to be viewable. The Trijicon TA-31F is where I have had the best luck. Generally speaking, I use open sights, unless I have a distant target and time.

Your experience may be very different, and would advise you to go for it if the setup works for you.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Hey Gunny, what do you think about a 98K Mauser for 600+ yards. You can get them pretty cheap, and they are immensely accurate. Good ol' German engineering. Just need to put a good scope on. I'd also have to learn wind calculation, height calcs, and all sorts of other stuff so not sure if I would even try at ranges exceeding at 600 to 750+ yards. 
> 
> I have my MSAR STG556 for CQB and Med. Range. I know some people don't like bullpup configs, but with an OAL around 27-30" with a 20" barrel it makes a fine setup. AUG's are also known for their reliability and durability. I can also switch to a 16" barrel in about 20 seconds if I need to enter a house. It has near zero muzzle rise too. 
> 
> I just don't know if I could carry a 98K and my STG556 though since my pack out is all ready around 80LBS. Throwing in 8MM 98k rounds and the weapon platform will push around 100LBS on a 150LB frame isn't going to work too well  Perhaps I could go from 500Round 5.56 to 350RDS and then throw in 70 rounds of 8MM. What do you think Gunny?
> 
> Also if you could, could you read my post in the 5 Min Bug-out thread and post up what you think? Thanks.


The only real problem I have with it is the availability of the ammunition.  Yes, you can get the ammo TODAY without too much of a fuss, so if you are looking at it as more of a fun, target shooting collectible weapon then by all means.  Problem is if you are looking at it as a "world has gone to hell and I'm on the ground fighting for survival" sort of weapon, then 8mm will be awful hard to come by.

If you are calculating weight for you bugout gear, then it looks like we are talking about a SHTF weapon.  So my question is what do you do once you have expended your 70 rounds of 8mm?  I mean, if the SHTF is real, then 70 rounds is not all that much.  At some point you are going to want to refresh your ammunition supply, and 8mm may or may not be available.

Don't get me wrong, I like to look at Cadillac rounds myself, and there is no question but that there are a whole host of rare rounds that are ballistically superior to standard rounds.  For instance, in a pistol I strongly favor a 10mm.  But I purchased a .40S&W

When looking at SHTF weapons, not only is it a good idea to reload, but it's also a good idea to stick with more common cartridges.  Something in the 7.62mm and .30 class would be your best bet here.  Everything from the AK to the M14 uses the same projectile, just with a different case.  Look at cartridge availability.  

Almost every hunter in America is going to have .308 or .30-06 ammunition in their home somewhere.  Say we have the ultimate SHTF situation where people have ben hauled off to camps and you are out of ammo.  You can't go to a gun store, so you break into an unoccupied and likely looking house.  What are your chances of finding .308 versus 8mm?

Now, if you reload, then your options grow a little.  As long as you police your brass (a good idea in any case for a million different reasons) then you can actually pull the projectile and powder from a .308 and load up a .30-06 or vice versa pull the projectile and powder from a .30-06 and load up a .308 -- you can even pull projectiles and powder from AK-47 rounds to load .308 and .30-06 -- those options are simply not available with the 8mm at all, not even if you have one of the most advanced reloading stations in the world.

I can't fault the Mauser itself, it is a most excellent weapon.  My advice when selecting a SHTF weapon however, is to focus on ammunition availability.  When you run out, you will want to be able to get more, and you will not be able to do so at your local Wal-Mart.  Therefore look for weapons that fire ammunition you are liable to find in the homes of hunters who have been hauled away or killed -- .308 .30-06

If you are looking for a peacetime weapon, target shooting, hunting, maybe a marginal SHTF where there remains some semblance of order and we citizens are still mostly free, then the Mauser is not a bad choice.  But if we are talking the flat out SHTF kind of PAW that has freedom warriors living in camouflaged fighting holes as they move around the woods trying to survive and fight back against some tyrannical fascist monstrosity -- you are going to be many times over better off with something like a Remington 700 that eats .308 or .30-06, simply for the purposes of resupplying and battlefield pickups.

----------


## Pericles

As usual, good advice from *Gunny*. This is the reason I don't like the 7.62 x 39 for the AKs and SKS. You need a lifetime supply of brass. Keeping in mind that your supply could influence your lifetime.

----------

