# Liberty Movement > Defenders of Liberty > Justin Amash Forum >  Amash is saying Trump has engaged in an impeachable offense

## KEEF



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## ThePaleoLibertarian

Oh man, is this a terrible move from Amash. Even if he was right, it's just bad strategy. Trump is exceedingly popular with the GOP, which includes Amash's constituents. What is he trying to accomplish? The Dems will use this as a propaganda victory, saying that if a conservative like Amash can realize "the truth", other Republicans have no excuse not to. And any cachet he gets with the Democrats will be immediately forgotten when he once again disagrees with them.

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## kahless

Lets see the redacted portions that Amash is basing it on. How are we to judge otherwise.

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## PAF

> That doesn't disprove what Cleaner said.
> 
> And I'm still waiting for you to defend Amash's lie.


I am defending Amash’s 94% Freedom Index Record, one of which trump could never reach with a ten yard pole.

BTW, open borders yes, but ask Justin if he would advocate incentive/welfare payments, such that trumps long term goal will provide even more, which you are too blind to see, or admit. I’ve been around the block a few hundred times and know how such things work.

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## ATruepatriot

> What exactly is the case for obstruction? Was it that Trump discussed keeping or firing Mueller with his staff? What difference does that make? Doesn't Trump have the authority to fire him? Do they want to say that every question, statement, or console with staff is obstruction? Would not any person running anything discuss options with staff and brainstorm ideas?


You know the answer to that. To the leftist crybaby children, him just being President is now obstruction of justice.

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## Stratovarious

Amash was the Golden Boy here if I remember correctly, I was not buying it.

...and Jeff Flake certainly lived up to his name.

Everyone today seems to be levying the most impressive and outlandish claims about
anything , just to get 15 minutes of coverage, they don't give a fk about America 
and the 'Republic' .

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## Swordsmyth

> I am defending Amash’s 94% Freedom Index Record, one of which trump could never reach with a ten yard pole.


Yes, you are trying to distract everyone from his lie which is the subject of this thread but I am not going to let you.




> BTW, open borders yes, but ask Justin if he would advocate incentive/welfare payments, such that trumps long term goal will provide even more, which you are too blind to see, or admit. I’ve been around the block a few hundred times and know how such things work.


Trump is reducing welfare to citizens and invaders and our economy alone is sufficient incentive to keep the invaders coming here and turning us into a communist country.

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## TheCount

The knives come out for anyone who is insufficiently loyal to the Orange One.

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## ATruepatriot

> The knives come out for anyone who is insufficiently loyal to the Orange One.


And the knives come out for anyone who is not a communist.

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## PAF

> Amash was the Golden Boy here if I remember correctly, I was not buying it.
> 
> ...and Jeff Flake certainly lived up to his name.
> 
> Everyone today seems to be levying the most impressive and outlandish claims about
> anything , just to get 15 minutes of coverage, they don't give a fk about America 
> and the 'Republic' .


Anybody who compares Justin Amash to jeff flake is a total FLAKE. Certainly while Justin’s Record remains solid.

Memo... RPF, the Shills have arrived.

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## oyarde

> Oh man, is this a terrible move from Amash. Even if he was right, it's just bad strategy. Trump is exceedingly popular with the GOP, which includes Amash's constituents. What is he trying to accomplish? The Dems will use this as a propaganda victory, saying that if a conservative like Amash can realize "the truth", other Republicans have no excuse not to. And any cachet he gets with the Democrats will be immediately forgotten when he once again disagrees with them.


Thats how I see it . Some things you just keep to yourself .

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## juleswin

> The knives come out for anyone who is insufficiently loyal to the Orange One.


Don't you find it a bit odd for someone who is supposedly a champion of limited govt to be a stickler for govt rules and regulations? A normal person who would refuse to punish a normal citizen for obstruction of justic for a crime he hasn't been found guilty of.

I hate Trump as a person and politician and even I would not vote to impeach him.

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## Swordsmyth

Amash refused to endorse impeachment of former President Barack  Hussein Obama while he was in office, but now publicly supports the  impeachment of President Trump despite the fact that the Mueller  investigation cleared him of colluding with Russia.
 Sen. Rand Pauls chief strategist Doug Stafford liked the following  tweet critical of Amashs rant, suggesting that Paul and his team  understand that the Congressman from Grand Rapids has lost his way:

https://twitter.com/davidharsanyi/st...51375523905536

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## UWDude

> Justin Amash Cumulative Freedom Index Score: *94%*
> 
> https://www.thenewamerican.com/index...nameid=A000367


Don't give a $#@!.  Let me guess, Amash is a lawyer.
Googles: Yup, law school.




> I think he believes that there was obstrution of justice. My take is that even if he is correct, I still think he should not be impeached if he not guilt of the underlying crime. Rule of law be damned.


Rule of law?  The $#@! head is going with "there were no crimes committed, but Trump did something unethical"

So it doesn't even have anything to do with Law.

I swear to God, if this is anything BUT Amash trying to stop what he sees as Trump's mind is made up to go into Iran....

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## enhanced_deficit

>

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## timosman

> Really?  -2 points for Ron Paul.  Clinton impeachment was another garbage move.


It should have been about Chinagate and Ron said that.

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## kcchiefs6465

> For years, while he was in the House.


Meh. Hes been a POS for about as long as I can remember.

Granted I didnt follow him in the House.

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## nbhadja

> Is Amash trying to lose his reelection?  I'm sure his constituents don't like what hes doing.


Amash is a dumbass with severe TDS that now is a puppet for the libtards with severe TDS. He seeks their approval. Not only is Amash likely to be voted out now that he has pissed off most Republican voters, who overwhelmingly love Trump, but he is lying and promoting the debunked FAKE obstruction BS and did not offer a single ounce of evidence for it (bc it is fake and there is no evidence).  Mueller wrote that Trump did not impede his investigation in any way. 

Rand Paul is an example of how a libertarian Republican can help the cause and not only has he set himself up with influence over Trump (like with healthcare), but also with a bright future (future head of a top intelligence department or maybe even future President) . Amash is doing the opposite and hurting the cause, not to mention has likely destroyed his political career. He is the very definition of a purist moron that doesn't understand how to get things done and in his lust for purity he ends up hurting the very cause he claims to promote. Not to mention he is an open border idiot that wants more welfare leeching immigrants to pour in from Mexico.

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## UWDude

> Treason means declaring war against the government or giving aid to a foreign power.


To try to drag the world into a war because you do not like the duly elected president of the United States, is high treason.
To use the government to spy on campaigns, and to try to intimidate members of the administration from working with the duly elected president of the United States of America, is high treason.
To try to pull off a campaign of lies and a taxpayer funded investigation, that would, after the blue wave, remove the duly elected President of the United States, on lies, is high treason.

I know exactly what I am saying.

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## nbhadja

> Good thing that no one that Trump endorses actually wins.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Collusion is not what Amash is alleging.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, then carry on Mein Fuhrer.  Mind control sold to you, sir.



Trump spent almost all of his time campaigning for senators (not the House) and the GOP gained in the senate. Nice try.

Also Amash is alleging obstruction and collusion, which is fake BS. Amash claimed that Barr misrepresented the Mueller report, which was not true. Amash is basically a butthurt libtard with TDS now.  Sad how he has fallen so much.

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## Swordsmyth

> Treason means declaring war against the government or giving aid to a foreign power.  What's funny is that the man you're defending actually is at war against you.  Like literally at war against you.  But you don't even realize it.


In case you missed what has been going on I will remind you that the traitors conspired with several foreign governments to overthrow the lawful President.

That is TREASON.

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## nbhadja

> Roy Moore beat the candidate Trump endorsed. Just saying


Tom Brady has lost a game before. he sucks!!!! MJ missed a shot before, so he must suck! If you bowl a 299/300 you suck!!!!


That was one race. Once again look at the senate race and who Trump campaigned for. He didn't make any rallies for house GOP candidates, only senate candidates and the GOP gained in the senate.

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## UWDude

> In case you missed what has been going on I will remind you that the traitors conspired with several foreign governments to overthrow the lawful President.
> 
> That is TREASON.


The Five Eyes, AT LEAST, probably half of the EU.  Parts of the Saudi Royal family.

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## juleswin

> Tom Brady has lost a game before. he sucks!!!! MJ missed a shot before, so he must suck! If you bowl a 299/300 you suck!!!!
> 
> 
> That was one race. Once again look at the senate race and who Trump campaigned for. He didn't make any rallies for house GOP candidates, only senate candidates and the GOP gained in the senate.


How many times have he endorsed the popular named candidate in a GOP primary and actually came out on top? you are comparing apples to oranges.

And yes, Tom Brady sucks. He is good because of the system he plays in.

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## devil21

> In case you missed what has been going on I will remind you that the traitors conspired with several foreign governments to overthrow the lawful President.
> 
> That is TREASON.


Interesting that you don't even attempt to counter my assertion that Trump is literally at war against the American people.  Because you know it's _true_.  That pretty gold-fringed flag behind him...

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## UWDude

> How many times have he endorsed the popular named candidate in a GOP primary and actually came out on top? you are comparing apples to oranges.


He did not endorse Ray Moore because he thought Ray Moore could not win.  Turns out he was right.  
Trump is a winner, not an ideologue.  He is always just angling for the big W.
The dude was captain of his high school football, baseball, and basketball teams.
He loves competition.  And he loves to Win.

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## UWDude

> Because you know it's true.


Nut uh, you know what I am saying is true, poopy head.


GTFOOHWTBS

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## juleswin

> Ron is right, Clinton should have been impeached for treason.


But the reason why supported the impeachment was for lying under oath which I thought was BS.




> Really?  -2 points for Ron Paul.  Clinton impeachment was another garbage move.


God knows that even the great Ron Paul wasn't perfect. I have heard his reason for supporting impeached meant and its due to his strict adherence to the rule of law. A tactic if followed by everyone would lead to loads of people being cited for jay walking.

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## Swordsmyth

> Interesting that you don't even attempt to counter my assertion that Trump is literally at war against the American people.  Because you know it's _true_.  That pretty gold-fringed flag behind him...


LOL

Trump is the most pro-American President we have had in a very long time.

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## juleswin

> Ron is right, Clinton should have been impeached for treason.





> He did not endorse Ray Moore because he thought Ray Moore could not win.  Turns out he was right.  
> Trump is a winner, not an ideologue.  He is always just angling for the big W.
> The dude was captain of his high school football, baseball, and basketball teams.
> He loves competition.  And he loves to Win.


Roy Moore lost because lied, lied and lied some moore about him. The fact that the democrats turned evil to defeat him tells me that he was the right guy to take that seat. Also don't discount the role Ivanka Trump played in creating the narrative that he is a pedophile.

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## UWDude

Bill Clinton was a big wake up call for me.  
I was shocked and angry a politician lied, and tried to destroy the truth tellers.
I still did not see it as an impeachable offense.
Because who he had legal sex with, was nobodies business in the first place.
I don't care if it was in the oval office.
That should have stayed between him and Monica.
Should have never been dragged out into the light, and certainly not for the sake of impeachment.

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## Swordsmyth

> But the reason why supported the impeachment was for lying under oath which I thought was BS.
> 
> 
> 
> God knows that even the great Ron Paul wasn't perfect. I have heard his reason for supporting impeached meant and its due to his strict adherence to the rule of law. A tactic if followed by everyone would lead to loads of people being cited for jay walking.


...



> It should have been about Chinagate and Ron said that.

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## Swordsmyth

> Bill Clinton was a big wake up call for me.  
> I was shocked and angry a politician lied, and tried to destroy the truth tellers.
> I still did not see it as an impeachable offense.
> Because who he had legal sex with, was nobodies business in the first place.
> I don;t care if it was in the oval office.
> That should have stayed between him and Monica.
> Should have never been dragged out into the light.


It was dragged out by controlled opposition to keep him from being impeached for Treason.

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## oyarde

> But the reason why supported the impeachment was for lying under oath which I thought was BS.
> 
> 
> 
> God knows that even the great Ron Paul wasn't perfect. I have heard his reason for supporting impeached meant and its due to his strict adherence to the rule of law. A tactic if followed by everyone would lead to loads of people being cited for jay walking.


I have an outstanding jaywalking ticket in Frankfurt .

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## devil21

> LOL
> 
> Trump is the most pro-American President we have had in a very long time.


Still no denial.  Because its true.

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## UWDude

> Still no denial.  Because its true.


How could you know Trump is at war with me, if you don't even know who I am?

Piss off, piss ant.

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## oyarde

> Yawn, these people should try harder. Also seeing as Pence will be president if Trump is successfully impeached, I think I will pass on it. Find me a charge with more meat and I will reconsider.


Not only would Pence be Pres , he would crush Bernie .

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## juleswin

> ...


My apologies to the Great Ron Paul. He stated the reasons why he supported impeachment proceeding on Trump and it wasn't for lying under oath or chinagate but instead was for his authorized military adventures in Iraq and Sudan

I was wrong, Timosman was wrong and SS especially was also wrong. Here is Ron Paul making the case for impeachment and those same reasons would apply to Trump.

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## Swordsmyth

> Still no denial.  Because its true.


LOL

I deny your silly claim, even if the gold fringed flag stuff actually meant something in the real world Trump doesn't bother with details like that.

Tell your ChiCom buddies that you are failing miserably here.

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## juleswin

> Not only would Pence be Pres , he would crush Bernie .


Oh no, I want a Pres Bernie for the lol, that would rob me of some great comedic moments. But if the impeachment was for all the unauthorized killing of innocent people then I can go without the lols. Lock the bastard up for the killing of innocent and I will praise Amash forever.

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## UWDude

> LOL
> 
> I deny your silly claim, even if the gold fringed flag stuff actually meant something in the real world Trump doesn't bother with details like that.
> 
> Tell your ChiCom buddies that you are failing miserably here.


That's freeman on the land rhetoric.

Now we know who Devil21 is, and where his true line of thinking stems from.

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## devil21

> How could you know Trump is at war with me, if you don't even know who I am?
> 
> Piss off, piss ant.


Programming interrupted^^^^^

Read a history book, k?  

I swear, the more I educate myself, the dumber some of y'all look.





> LOL
> 
> I deny your silly claim, even if the gold fringed flag stuff actually meant something in the real world Trump doesn't bother with details like that.
> 
> Tell your ChiCom buddies that you are failing miserably here.


Trump declared another "national emergency" a couple days ago.  You do know that national emergency declarations suspend the Constitution and maintain a state of perpetual martial law/military rule, right?

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## oyarde

> Oh no, I want a Pres Bernie for the lol, that would rob me of some great comedic moments. But if the impeachment was for all the unauthorized killing of innocent people then I can go without the lols. Lock the bastard up for the killing of innocent and I will praise Amash forever.


The other side will never impeach for unauthorized killing because they plan on expanding it quite a bit more .

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## Swordsmyth

> My apologies to the Great Ron Paul. He stated the reasons why he supported impeachment proceeding on Trump and it wasn't for lying under oath or chinagate but instead was for his authorized military adventures in Iraq and Sudan
> 
> I was wrong, Timosman was wrong and SS especially was also wrong. Here is Ron Paul making the case for impeachment and those same reasons would apply to Trump.


I'm fairly certain that he said Clinton should have been impeached for Chinagate elsewhere.

Trump has been winding down our foreign policy problems and I would not support impeaching him for them because his replacement would be worse.

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## UWDude

> Programming interrupted^^^^^


Complimenting your enemies?

How sad.

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## enhanced_deficit

Thinking out of box here, could some tribal factors be at work here also?

Amash is Palestinian*.

MAGA is member of an Israeli* Family  ( going by MAGA's 'Mexican Judge' Heritagometer) .

[ And has made some policy moves that are widely perceived as very pro-Israel/ anti-Palestinian (  boosting $38B aid to Israel while cutting Palestinian aid, West Bank settlements,  making his Israeli* son-in-law in-charge of Israel-Palestine peace process, Golan Heights, Iran war escalation, Ivanak inspired Syria bombing,  etc). ]

Or that won't be a factor in any rivalry between the two?

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## Swordsmyth

If there was any basis to impeach Trump for obstruction Mueller would have recommended it.

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## devil21

> If there was any basis to impeach Trump for obstruction Mueller would have recommended it.


Why would 9/11 co-conspirators damage each other?  Trump's attorney is Giuliani.  Mueller was FBI Director during 9/11.  

The much more realistic explanation is that it's all distraction theater.

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## UWDude

> Thinking out of box here, could some tribal factors be at work here also?
> 
> Amash is Palestinian*.
> 
> MAGA is member of an Israeli* Family  ( going by MAGA's 'Mexican Judge' Heritagometer) .
> 
> [ And has made some policy moves that are widely perceived as very pro-Israel/ anti-Palestinian (  boosting $38B aid to Israel while cutting Palestinian aid, West Bank settlements,  making his Israeli* son-in-law in-charge of Israel-Palestine peace process, Golan Heights, Iran war escalation, Ivanak inspired Syria bombing,  etc). ]
> 
> Or that won't be a factor in any rivalry between the two?


If that is his reason, he should speak it from his mouth, and not fart something else from his ass.
He should own it, not cower behind lawyer-speak drivel, like a sniveling little weasel.

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## Swordsmyth

> Why would 9/11 co-conspirators damage each other?  Trump's attorney is Giuliani.  Mueller was FBI Director during 9/11.  
> 
> The much more realistic explanation is that it's all distraction theater.

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## enhanced_deficit

I don't know if that is the reason, could be a possible contributing factor based on general view of  human biases and human nature.

If that is a factor, this line of attack could become a slippery slope for him and other GOP-primary ready opponents etc to go after MAGA's PSON leadership / exposing Israeli* Sheldon Adelson's funding role  in his policies, hiring of neocons like Bolton, Pompeo.

This could expose MAGA to some serious political risk even if Weld did not primary him.

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## UWDude

> I don't know if it is, just a possible factor based on human biases and human nature.
> 
> If that is a factor, this line of attack could become a slipper slope for him and other GOP-primary ready opponents etc to go after MAGA's PSON leadership / exposing Shelson Adelson's funding role  in his policies, hiring of neocoms like Boltob, Pompeo.
> 
> This could expose MAGA to some serious political risk even if Weld did not primary him.


So now you gonna just start driveling diarrhea since I said I don't like people floating stinkers?

What do you plan on doing with it?  Throwing it against the wall, see what sticks?

Maybe I'll stick around for the lols.

Probably not, I got better things to do.

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## RonZeplin

Trump had to obstruct justice to protect Hillary, Obama & crew.

When the President does it, that means that it's legal.

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## Swordsmyth

> Trump had to obstruct justice to protect Hillary, Obama & crew.
> 
> When the President does it, that means that it's legal.


LOL

You are getting more pathetic all the time.

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## timosman

> Trump had to obstruct justice to protect Hillary, Obama & crew.
> 
> When the President does it, that means that it's legal.


What if somebody was trying to set him up?

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## timosman

> LOL
> 
> You are getting more pathetic all the time.


Let's not discount the question prematurely.

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## juleswin

> Why would 9/11 co-conspirators damage each other?  Trump's attorney is Giuliani.  Mueller was FBI Director during 9/11.  
> 
> The much more realistic explanation is that it's all distraction theater.


I think they would damage each other but they will not inflict fatal damage to each other. Its like fights in professional wrestling, sometimes blood is spilt but the goal is never to concuss/KO their opponent.

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## nbhadja

Here is the real reason that shill Amash has had stage 5 TDS for years now:




> Michigan Republican Congressman Justin Amash made headlines Saturday by declaring on Twitter that President Trump deserved impeachment.  The media was quick to promote his position and advance an anti-Trump narrative.  *However, a review of Amashs financial interests quickly reveals a very personal business motive.  His family tool business is heavily invested in Chinese manufacturing*.
> 
> In his 2017 financial disclosure forms (pdf here), Representative Amash reports income of between $100,000 to $1,000,000/yr. for his ownership stake in Michigan Industrial Tools.  Michigan Industrial Tools is the parent company, manufacturing in China, that produces Tekton Tools, Justin Amashs Michigan family business.
> 
> According to an earlier Michigan article Amash is a co-owner of Dynamic Source International, a Chinese company that supplies Michigan Industrial Tools.  A visit to the website of Dynamic Source International (link) shows the company operates manufacturing and factory facilities located in Hangzhou, capital city of Zhejiang Province, China.
> 
> 
> What you quickly discover is it appears Republican Congressman Justin Amash was challenged in 2010 [News Link] for his family business claiming to sell hand tools made in the U.S.A. but were actually manufactured in China.
> 
> ...


Amash is just another politician in it for himself and owned by China. At least be honest and admit you oppose Trump because the tariffs will hurt your family business instead of appeasing the libtard morons by promoting the debunked collusion and obstruction hoax. 

https://theconservativetreehouse.com...ests-in-china/

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## timosman

> If there was any basis to impeach Trump for obstruction Mueller would have recommended it.


Even if he got played, why did he play?

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## timosman

> I think they would damage each other but they will not inflict fatal damage to each other. Its like fights in professional wrestling, sometimes blood is spilt but the goal is never to concuss/KO their opponent.


You can always give them $#@!load of cash and a one way ticket to Brazil. Plastic surgery included.

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## Swordsmyth

> Even if he got played, why did he play?


Mueller made some nice bucks on the investigation and he got to help hobble Trump for 2 years. (They hope to extend it further with the kind of garbage Amash is pushing)

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## timosman

> If that is his reason, he should speak it from his mouth, and not fart something else from his ass.
> He should own it, not cower behind lawyer-speak drivel, like a sniveling little weasel.


He behaves like an NPC. I have something but I don't.

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## timosman

> Mueller made some nice bucks on the investigation and he got to help hobble Trump for 2 years. (They hope to extend it further with the kind of garbage Amash is pushing)


Amash got co-opted?

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## Swordsmyth

> Here is the real reason that shill Amash has had stage 5 TDS for years now:
> 
> 
> 
> Amash is just another politician in it for himself and owned by China. At least be honest and admit you oppose Trump because the tariffs will hurt your family business instead of appeasing the libtard morons by promoting the debunked collusion and obstruction hoax. 
> 
> https://theconservativetreehouse.com...ests-in-china/


Amash is looking more and more like a wolf in sheep's clothing.

I'd still rather he keep his seat since he maintains such a great voting record as camouflage but I would recommend not turning your back on him or ever giving him higher office, if he ever gets in the Senate I would expect him to transform into a first class RINO like Flake did, he may end up doing so in the House anyway.

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## Swordsmyth

> Amash got co-opted?


Or he was a wolf in sheep's clothing all along.

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## timosman

> Or he was a wolf in sheep's clothing all along.


Paul's were never good at evaluating people.

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## timosman

The left is on the offensive. This is really funny. The part about advertisers is spot on. :

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## nbhadja

> Amash is looking more and more like a wolf in sheep's clothing.
> 
> I'd still rather he keep his seat since he maintains such a great voting record as camouflage but I would recommend not turning your back on him or ever giving him higher office, if he ever gets in the Senate I would expect him to transform into a first class RINO like Flake did, he may end up doing so in the House anyway.


Yes, I agree. He votes much better than most members of congress (though he is absolutely pathetic on immigration), but I personally dislike the guy and think he is a sell out coward and a short sighted moron blinded by purity and personal greed.  He is clearly opposed to Trump in order to try and save his family business, which is reliant on cheap Chinese manufacturing. He is so blinded by purity and lacking long term strategy that he just pissed off most Republican voters and greatly increased the chances that he fails to get reelected in 2020. I will laugh when he gets voted out and his family business fails as well.

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## nikcers

Would you guys be arguing if he said hiring John Bolton is an impeachable offense?

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## timosman

> Would you guys be arguing if he said hiring John Bolton is an impeachable offense?


Do you have a better question?

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## Swordsmyth

> Would you guys be arguing if he said hiring John Bolton is an impeachable offense?


Yes, hiring Bolton as an advisor may not be a good idea but it is not an impeachable offense.

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## nikcers

> Yes, hiring Bolton as an advisor may not be a good idea but it is not an impeachable offense.


They have impeached for a lot less offensive things in my opinion.

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## Ender

> Yes, I agree. He votes much better than most members of congress (though he is absolutely pathetic on immigration), but I personally dislike the guy and think he is a sell out coward and a short sighted moron blinded by purity and personal greed.  He is clearly opposed to Trump in order to try and save his family business, which is reliant on cheap Chinese manufacturing. He is so blinded by purity and lacking long term strategy that he just pissed off most Republican voters and greatly increased the chances that he fails to get reelected in 2020. I will laugh when he gets voted out and his family business fails as well.


*
Donald Trump has more than 100 trademarks in China, including 35 granted pre-approval since he became US president.*

https://qz.com/929553/here-are-all-t...hat-he-doesnt/

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## Swordsmyth

> *
> Donald Trump has more than 100 trademarks in China, including 35 granted pre-approval since he became US president.*
> 
> https://qz.com/929553/here-are-all-t...hat-he-doesnt/


And yet he disregards his personal interests in favor of the good of his country.

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## Swordsmyth

> Here is the real reason that shill Amash has had stage 5 TDS for years now:
> 
> 
> 
> Amash is just another politician in it for himself and owned by China. At least be honest and admit you oppose Trump because the tariffs will hurt your family business instead of appeasing the libtard morons by promoting the debunked collusion and obstruction hoax. 
> 
> https://theconservativetreehouse.com...ests-in-china/


China.




> China is the powerbase of Communism today.
> 
> 
> This will all lead back to China.
> 
> The cold war never ended, it just went into stealth mode.

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## kcchiefs6465

> Yes, I agree. He votes much better than most members of congress (though he is absolutely pathetic on immigration), but I personally dislike the guy and think he is a sell out coward and a short sighted moron blinded by purity and personal greed.  He is clearly opposed to Trump in order to try and save his family business, which is reliant on cheap Chinese manufacturing. He is so blinded by purity and lacking long term strategy that he just pissed off most Republican voters and greatly increased the chances that he fails to get reelected in 2020. I will laugh when he gets voted out and his family business fails as well.


Noted.

He is too pure presumably on immigration and free trade and is versed on economic logic enough to have lost your vote.

I would recommend looking into his background and then following up with, Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt or Economic Sophisms by Frederic Bastiat.

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## Swordsmyth

> Noted.
> 
> He is too pure presumably on immigration and free trade and is versed on economic logic enough to have lost your vote.
> 
> I would recommend looking into his background and then following up with, Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt or Economic Sophisms by Frederic Bastiat.


ChiCom manipulated trade is not free trade or good for our country and open borders will ensure the extinction of liberty.

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## timosman

This is getting silly.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> This is getting silly.


It started silly.

----------


## axiomata

this place is turning into a third world $#@!hole

----------


## familydog

Amash wants impeachment 'cause principles. Rand Paul does not want impeachment 'cause principles. Only one is correct. Choose.

----------


## swissaustrian

Besides the anti-Zionist angle and Amash being Palestinian, his family's business being affected by the China tarrifs etc...

I think he is doing it to get press and *name recognition ahead of his announcement of a third party run for the LP in 2020*. 

Not a smart move to use the Mueller saga as a vehicle for that imho, but I think that is the most likely motivation.

By the way: 
From a legal point of view, obstruction does NOT require an underlying crime, because obstruction is aimed at preventing the collection of evidence and therefore getting an indicment (H. Clintons deletion of 33000 emails qualifies for sure). The threshold of proof in criminal cases is very high ("beyond reasonable doubt") which is why prosecutors love process crimes like lying to them or obstruction. They are much easier to prove. It is BS and contrary to any common sense, but that is the legal theory behind it. 
The Mueller report, however, is NOT claiming that they proved obstruction (beyond reasonable doubt). Instead, they are saying that they could not "exonerate" Trump. Exoneration is NOT a concept of criminal law. It would require proving a negative which is impossible. It also puts the principle of "inncocent until proven guilty" on its head. According to this principle, you are automatically deemed innocent once the prosecution closes the case without an indicment. The exoneration terminolgy used by the Mueller team is a bone thrown to Congress, so that they have a political football to toss arround.

----------


## Cap

> I DONT NEED TO.
> THERE WAS NO RUSSIAN COLLUSION.
> PERIOD.  END OF.
> 
> Anything Trump did to try to block this stream of treasonous BS about Russian collusion, is cool in my book.
> Hell if he would have had Meuller killed with the heart attack gun, I would have been cool with it, because, THE WHOLE THING WAS MADE UP, TREASONOUS NONSENSE, FOR WHICH TENS OF THOUSANDS NEED TO BE EXECUTED.


You mad bro?

----------


## EBounding

> Amash wants impeachment 'cause principles. Rand Paul does not want impeachment 'cause principles. Only one is correct. Choose.


Has Rand read through the report?

----------


## Schifference

> Has Rand read through the report?


As a gambler, without knowing the answer, but by judging by Rand's character, I would bet that he most certainly has read the report. He is a person that relishes facts. Rand is not wrong on facts or history therefore he most definitely has read the report.

----------


## shakey1

> So, impeach him already...I fail to see how more talk will reduce "extreme partisanship".
> 
> I've said all along that "I don't like that $#@!ing guy" is not an impeachable offense, but who knows these days?
> 
> That's what the idiot GOP impeached Bill Clinton for in the 90s, instead of *real* high crimes like selling missile guidance technology to the ChiComs and reactor technology to the North Koreans or the mass murders in Waco Texas, and you see how far that went.


^^^^this egg-zactly^^^^

----------


## PursuePeace

I've always supported Amash. I still support Amash because he is one of the best we have. But I completely and totally disagree with his stance on Trump. He DOES have TDS and I suspect it has to do with Trump's immigration policy and also, Israel. Amash is putting his personal feelings/personal loyalties ahead of what is best for the country, imho. Maybe, I'm wrong, but that's just my impression for now. We need Amash and this is not going to go over well with Republican voters. If Amash had reason to call for impeachment, that would be a different story, but he has nothing.

I hated Trump and didn't vote for him. But my mild case of "TDS" was turned around once he was in office and making a lot of positive changes. Hope that continues to be the case for the next few years. I guess time will tell.

----------


## oyarde

> this place is turning into a third world $#@!hole


I always figured it would

----------


## nobody's_hero

Doesn't Amash have a lot of dems in his district? 

I hate to tell him that when you try to appeal to everyone and straddle the fence, you usually get impaled on that fence. Buddying up to democrats is gonna piss off Republicans and the Democrats would rather see him replaced with someone who lines up more with their big spending/big government beliefs. I honestly don't know what he's trying to accomplish.

----------


## PursuePeace

> Doesn't Amash have a lot of dems in his district? 
> 
> I hate to tell him that *when you try to appeal to everyone and straddle the fence, you usually get impaled on that fence. Buddying up to democrats is gonna piss off Republicans and the Democrats would rather see him replaced with someone who lines up more with their big spending/big government beliefs.* I honestly don't know what he's trying to accomplish.


yep.

----------


## KEEF

> Doesn't Amash have a lot of dems in his district? 
> 
> I hate to tell him that when you try to appeal to everyone and straddle the fence, you usually get impaled on that fence. Buddying up to democrats is gonna piss off Republicans and the Democrats would rather see him replaced with someone who lines up more with their big spending/big government beliefs. I honestly don't know what he's trying to accomplish.


No his district, which is right next to mine, is pure R.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> Doesn't Amash have a lot of dems in his district? 
> 
> I hate to tell him that when you try to appeal to everyone and straddle the fence, you usually get impaled on that fence. Buddying up to democrats is gonna piss off Republicans and the Democrats would rather see him replaced with someone who lines up more with their big spending/big government beliefs. I honestly don't know what he's trying to accomplish.


Looks like he actually has personal financial interests that could possibly have some influence in this... This raises question marks for me.

Michigan Republican Congressman Justin Amash made headlines Saturday by declaring on Twitter that President Trump deserved impeachment.  The media was quick to promote his position and advance an anti-Trump narrative.  However, a review of Amashs financial interests quickly reveals a very personal business motive.  His family tool business is heavily invested in Chinese manufacturing.

In his 2017 financial disclosure forms (pdf here), Representative Amash reports income of between $100,000 to $1,000,000/yr. for his ownership stake in Michigan Industrial Tools.  Michigan Industrial Tools is the parent company, manufacturing in China, that produces Tekton Tools, Justin Amashs Michigan family business.

According to an earlier Michigan article Amash is a co-owner of Dynamic Source International, a Chinese company that supplies Michigan Industrial Tools.  A visit to the website of Dynamic Source International (link) shows the company operates manufacturing and factory facilities located in Hangzhou, capital city of Zhejiang Province, China.

https://theconservativetreehouse.com...ests-in-china/

----------


## ProBlue33

Something feels off about him coming out with this statement. 
Is he stupid ? 
Defending yourself from a false charge of political slander by any and all means is not really obstruction of justice.
If it was true, only then would it be obstruction of justice, some say it doesn't matter, people that want true justice would be moving on and flipping to, whoever set Trump up needs to go to jail. Instead of spending a second more trying to impeach Trump on an obstruction of justice charge.
Crazy politics.

----------


## acptulsa

> Who here has read the Mueller report?  I haven't.





> IF he really believes there was obstruction of justice it is only because he WANTS to believe it because of his TDS.


The facts don't seem to matter to the trumpcucks.

----------


## Cap

I see some butt-hurt going on in this thread.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> Something feels off about him coming out with this statement. 
> Is he stupid ? 
> Defending yourself from a false charge of political slander by any and all means is not really obstruction of justice.
> If it was true, only then would it be obstruction of justice, some say it doesn't matter, people that want true justice would be moving on and flipping to, whoever set Trump up needs to go to jail. Instead of spending a second more trying to impeach Trump on an obstruction of justice charge.
> Crazy politics.


I agree. Part of his statement raises question marks...

"Contrary to Barrs portrayal, Muellers report reveals that President Trump engaged in specific actions and a pattern of behavior that meets the threshold for impeachment, the congressman tweeted. He said the report identifies multiple examples of conduct satisfying all the elements of obstruction of justice, and *undoubtedly any person who is not the president of the United States would be indicted based on such evidence.*

Now does this indicate that because he is President, whatever he supposedly did may have actually been within his legal powers and protections as POTUS and he is not just "any other person"?

Also it appears that the whole warrant and investigation it's self was illegal from the start. If this is true, then it doesn't matter what Trump did at all, it would be inadmissible anyhow.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> The facts don't seem to matter to the trumpcucks.


Here is a fact if found to be true in the whole of things. *Defending yourself from an illegal action is not obstruction.* If the warrant and investigation were illegal, everything else has absolutely no legal bearing and would be inadmissible in every court of law.

----------


## EBounding

> As a gambler, without knowing the answer, but by judging by Rand's character, I would bet that he most certainly has read the report. He is a person that relishes facts. Rand is not wrong on facts or history therefore he most definitely has read the report.


Then he can easily say he read the report and disagrees with Amash.  

While I dont know if impeachment is the right thing to pursue, I do trust Justins character a lot more than Trump.

----------


## pcosmar

> I don't want Trump impeached.


Why not?

I don't care really,,but I am Curious.. What about the Lying trouble making Clown is worth defending?

----------


## nikcers

> Then he can easily say he read the report and disagrees with Amash.  
> 
> While I don’t know if impeachment is the right thing to pursue, I do trust Justin’s character a lot more than Trump.


Someone asked Rand if he would support Amash if he ran against Trump and he said he would support the president. I wonder if Amash is going to run and that's what he is doing this for.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> Someone asked Rand if he would support Amash if he ran against Trump and he said he would support the president. I wonder if Amash is going to run and that's what he is doing this for.


He has indeed made this possibility known already.

----------


## nikcers

> Why not?
> 
> I don't care really,,but I am Curious.. What about the Lying trouble making Clown is worth defending?


One thing I like that Trump has done is made it easier for people who are out of options to try experimental medicines

----------


## ProBlue33

If he is running, he has no chance, anybody who runs against Trump in a primary is throwing away both money and time.
It a fools errand.
If they couldn't beat him in 2015/2016, there is no way they have a chance now.

----------


## KEEF

> Why not?
> 
> I don't care really,,but I am Curious.. What about the Lying trouble making Clown is worth defending?


This^ ... what has he done?  The swamp has yet to be “drained,” only has had neocons reshuffled (circa Bolton et. al).  Only thing I see that has done is keep his base charged and country polarized just like how his predecessor did with the only exception being that he uses extreme right wing talking points to polarize instead of extreme left.

----------


## Warlord

*Trump fires back, calls Justin a 'loser'

*https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...hed-engaged-in

----------


## ProBlue33

> *Trump fires back, calls Justin a 'loser'
> 
> *https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...hed-engaged-in





> In addition to Trump, the Republican National Committee (RNC) denounced Amash over his accusation. 
> 
> Its sad to see Congressman Amash parroting the Democrats talking points on Russia. The only people still fixated on the Russia collusion hoax are political foes of President Trump hoping to defeat him in 2020 by any desperate means possible," said RNC Chairwoman Ronna Romney McDaniel.


It is sad.

----------


## specsaregood

> One thing I like that Trump has done is made it easier for people who are out of options to try experimental medicines


He has been good on criminal justice reform too, IIRC.

----------


## ProBlue33

Ok I did a little bit of digging around as to why, because it didn't make logical sense, but Amash has a very selfish motivation for this move.


A review of Amash’s financial interests quickly reveals a very personal business motive.  His family tool business is heavily invested in Chinese manufacturing.

Representative Amash reports income of between $100,000 to $1,000,000/yr. for his ownership stake in Michigan Industrial Tools.  Michigan Industrial Tools is the parent company, manufacturing in China, that produces Tekton Tools, Justin Amash’s Michigan family business.

https://www.tekton.com/


Obviously President Trump’s tariff and trade position against China is adverse to the financial interests of Justin Amash.
And there has been issues with him saying his tools are Made in the USA and they are not.

I just lost all respect for him, pathetic.

Beyond that, Reddit is talking about launching a primary challenger to him because he is viewed as a total traitor now.

----------


## specsaregood

> Besides the anti-Zionist angle and Amash being Palestinian, his family's business being affected by the China tarrifs etc...
> 
> I think he is doing it to get press and *name recognition ahead of his announcement of a third party run for the LP in 2020*. 
> 
> Not a smart move to use the Mueller saga as a vehicle for that imho, but I think that is the most likely motivation.
> 
> By the way: 
> From a legal point of view, obstruction does NOT require an underlying crime, because obstruction is aimed at preventing the collection of evidence and therefore getting an indicment (H. Clintons deletion of 33000 emails qualifies for sure). The threshold of proof in criminal cases is very high ("beyond reasonable doubt") which is why prosecutors love process crimes like lying to them or obstruction. They are much easier to prove. It is BS and contrary to any common sense, but that is the legal theory behind it. 
> The Mueller report, however, is NOT claiming that they proved obstruction (beyond reasonable doubt). Instead, they are saying that they could not "exonerate" Trump. Exoneration is NOT a concept of criminal law. It would require proving a negative which is impossible. It also puts the principle of "inncocent until proven guilty" on its head. According to this principle, you are automatically deemed innocent once the prosecution closes the case without an indicment. The exoneration terminolgy used by the Mueller team is a bone thrown to Congress, so that they have a political football to toss arround.


And it is no different than charging somebody under the sole charge of "resisting arrest" when no other crime has been committed.  It is a strange world when one sees self claimed libertarians arguing in favor of such absurdities.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> Ok I did a little bit of digging around as to why, because it didn't make logical sense, but and Amash has a very selfish motivation for this move.
> 
> 
> A review of Amashs financial interests quickly reveals a very personal business motive.  His family tool business is heavily invested in Chinese manufacturing.
> 
> Representative Amash reports income of between $100,000 to $1,000,000/yr. for his ownership stake in Michigan Industrial Tools.  Michigan Industrial Tools is the parent company, manufacturing in China, that produces Tekton Tools, Justin Amashs Michigan family business.
> 
> https://www.tekton.com/
> 
> ...


Yep... I posted this personal conflict of interest earlier on another thread.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> And it is no different than charging somebody under the sole charge of "resisting arrest" when no other crime has been committed.  It is a strange world when one sees self claimed libertarians arguing in favor of such absurdities.


We now live in a world of being judged guilty for "rumor and thought crimes".

----------


## Anti Globalist

As far as I'm concerned Amash pretty much killed his presidential ambitions with this move.  Can you imagine whats going to happen if he runs in 2024? Trump and the rest of the Republican candidates are going to be attacking him for being the only Republican calling for impeachment.

----------


## ProBlue33

> I think he is doing it to get press and name recognition ahead of his announcement of a third party run for the LP in 2020.


Now that the China connection is in play, I don't think he has a chance, it was political suicide, even Mitt Romney came out against it, that's how bad it is.
Very stupid move.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> As far as I'm concerned Amash pretty much killed his presidential ambitions with this move.  Can you imagine whats going to happen if he runs in 2024? Trump and the rest of the Republican candidates are going to be attacking him for being the only Republican calling for impeachment.


I could be wrong but I'm going to make a likely prediction. Amash is going to backtrack and say he didn't really mean this to be understood and perceived as it has been... He is just trying to figure out how to word this. His base is filling up his answering machine as we speak.

----------


## oyarde

> Ok I did a little bit of digging around as to why, because it didn't make logical sense, but Amash has a very selfish motivation for this move.
> 
> 
> A review of Amash’s financial interests quickly reveals a very personal business motive.  His family tool business is heavily invested in Chinese manufacturing.
> 
> Representative Amash reports income of between $100,000 to $1,000,000/yr. for his ownership stake in Michigan Industrial Tools.  Michigan Industrial Tools is the parent company, manufacturing in China, that produces Tekton Tools, Justin Amash’s Michigan family business.
> 
> https://www.tekton.com/
> 
> ...


I have an old half inch drive metric deep well impact socket set made by MIT  , I really do not know if it was made in  Grand Rapids or china . Been a good set but I would not even have bought it if I thought it was made in china . I think all of the Tekton is made in china . They should make them here but they won't because they could get more for them and the steel would be better but it would lessen the profit margin which was probably huge .

----------


## TheCount

> Now does this indicate that because he is President, whatever he supposedly did may have actually been within his legal powers and protections as POTUS and he is not just "any other person"?


No, it indicates that the DoJ has a policy that says that they believe that they cannot indict the president.

Whether something is or is not within the power of an elected official doesn't matter.  If it did, there would be no such thing as corruption.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> The facts don't seem to matter to the trumpcucks.


Serious question:

What did Trump do, specifically, to "obstruct justice"?

Did he himself, or did he order evidence destroyed?

Did he order people to lie under oath?

Did he delete or erase digital evidence?

I'm seriously asking of anybody who *has* read the report in depth.

----------


## enhanced_deficit

This reporting is by Foxnows, a notorious fakenews outlet that hosts  disgraced neocons tools like Hannity, Levin, Judith Miller etc.  So  should be cautious until report is confirmed by other reliable sources. 
But if confirmed as non-fakenews, this is bold move by Romney even if he's not positioning for a contigency 2020 run secretly:



Published 2 hours ago

*Romney: Mueller report did not show obstruction, 'I don't think impeachment is the right way to go'*

         By         Ronn Blitzer | Fox News

*Flashback: Biden mocks Romney over Russia threat*

Former Vice President Joe Biden's attacks on Mitt Romney for his 2012 warning about Russia resurfaces.

Soon after Rep. Justin Amash, R-Mich.,   went against the GOP consensus by claiming President Trump committed   "impeachable conduct" in the form of obstruction of justice, another   known Trump critic took the opposite position.
Sen. Mitt Romney, R-Utah, acknowledged that while he has called out Trump   when he's deemed it appropriate, he does not believe the Mueller  report  provided evidence that supports impeaching the president.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rom...ight-way-to-go






Related

*                       					                                           					 						 							 							Poll:  							 							 						 					                 	Why Mueller did not exonerate POTUS on Obstruction Of Justice charge?*

----------


## ATruepatriot

> No, it indicates that the DoJ has a policy that says that they believe that they cannot indict the president.
> 
> Whether something is or is not within the power of an elected official doesn't matter.  If it did, there would be no such thing as corruption.


Guilty yet still no evidence. Guilt by rumor. Guilt by rumor of defending himself from a crime. And yes, the President is granted certain legal immunities in his capacity like it or not. Just as are many capacities like Police. Judges, and foreign diplomats. But first there has to be a crime anyhow, so far there is none, only rumors. And Amash admits that his aids relayed these rumors to him. Who is to say they even have a clue what the hell they are talking about?

----------


## TheCount

> Guilty yet still no evidence. Guilt by rumor. Guilt by rumor of defending himself from a crime.


Who said anything about guilt?  Indictments and impeachments have nothing to do with guilt.





> And yes, the President is granted certain legal immunities in his capacity like it or not.


How and by what document(s)?





> Just as are many capacities like Police. Judges, and foreign diplomats.


Qualified immunity only protects you if you obey the law.  There are laws against corruption and obstruction of justice.

Prosecutors cannot lawfully demand or accept bribes to drop cases.  Judges cannot lawfully demand or accept demand bribes to give light sentences.  The president cannot lawfully demand or accept bribes to give pardons.  And so on.  Even though those actions are within the powers of those government officials, they cannot use their powers corruptly.





> But first there has to be a crime anyhow, so far there is none, only rumors. And Amash admits that his aids relayed these rumors to him. Who is to say they even have a clue what the hell they are talking about?


You are lying.  Nowhere does Amash say that.

----------


## oyarde

Looks like Rand and Romney back to the same place everyone always arrives at . No evidence .  One thing is sure . If the dems were to win the next presidential election  all the RPF libertarians should have a truckload of better crimes to talk about .

----------


## UWDude

> You mad bro?


Furious.

----------


## devil21

> I think they would damage each other but they will not inflict fatal damage to each other. Its like fights in professional wrestling, sometimes blood is spilt but the goal is never to concuss/KO their opponent.


Astute comparison.  It's not like Donald has been involved in the WWE or anything.

Oh wait...  yes he has and even appointed the queen of WWE to his cabinet.  Things that make ya go hmm.....

--------------------

Amash's tweets, according to ZH:


    Here are my principal conclusions:
    1. Attorney General Barr has deliberately misrepresented Mueller’s report.
    2. President Trump has engaged in impeachable conduct.
    3. Partisanship has eroded our system of checks and balances.
    4. Few members of Congress have read the report.
    — Justin Amash (@justinamash) May 18, 2019

    I offer these conclusions only after having read Mueller’s redacted report carefully and completely, having read or watched pertinent statements and testimony, and having discussed this matter with my staff, who thoroughly reviewed materials and provided me with further analysis.
    — Justin Amash (@justinamash) May 18, 2019

    In comparing Barr’s principal conclusions, congressional testimony, and other statements to Mueller’s report, it is clear that Barr intended to mislead the public about Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s analysis and findings.
    — Justin Amash (@justinamash) May 18, 2019

    Barr’s misrepresentations are significant but often subtle, frequently taking the form of sleight-of-hand qualifications or logical fallacies, which he hopes people will not notice.
    — Justin Amash (@justinamash) May 18, 2019

    Under our Constitution, the president “shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.” While “high Crimes and Misdemeanors” is not defined, the context implies conduct that violates the public trust.
    — Justin Amash (@justinamash) May 18, 2019

    Contrary to Barr’s portrayal, Mueller’s report reveals that President Trump engaged in specific actions and a pattern of behavior that meet the threshold for impeachment.
    — Justin Amash (@justinamash) May 18, 2019

    In fact, Mueller’s report identifies multiple examples of conduct satisfying all the elements of obstruction of justice, and undoubtedly any person who is not the president of the United States would be indicted based on such evidence.
    — Justin Amash (@justinamash) May 18, 2019

Rather than attack President Trump, Amash emphasized that the standard on impeachable "does not even require probable cause," which doesn't sound like a great excuse for impeaching someone.

    Impeachment, which is a special form of indictment, does not even require probable cause that a crime (e.g., obstruction of justice) has been committed; it simply requires a finding that an official has engaged in careless, abusive, corrupt, or otherwise dishonorable conduct.
    — Justin Amash (@justinamash) May 18, 2019

    While impeachment should be undertaken only in extraordinary circumstances, the risk we face in an environment of extreme partisanship is not that Congress will employ it as a remedy too often but rather that Congress will employ it so rarely that it cannot deter misconduct.
    — Justin Amash (@justinamash) May 18, 2019

    Our system of checks and balances relies on each branch’s jealously guarding its powers and upholding its duties under our Constitution. When loyalty to a political party or to an individual trumps loyalty to the Constitution, the Rule of Law—the foundation of liberty—crumbles.
    — Justin Amash (@justinamash) May 18, 2019

    We’ve witnessed members of Congress from both parties shift their views 180 degrees—on the importance of character, on the principles of obstruction of justice—depending on whether they’re discussing Bill Clinton or Donald Trump.
    — Justin Amash (@justinamash) May 18, 2019

After a certain point, it started to seem like Amash's tweetstorm might have been spurred by anger at his colleagues for not bothering to have read the Mueller report.

    Few members of Congress even read Mueller’s report; their minds were made up based on partisan affiliation—and it showed, with representatives and senators from both parties issuing definitive statements on the 448-page report’s conclusions within just hours of its release.
    — Justin Amash (@justinamash) May 18, 2019

    America’s institutions depend on officials to uphold both the rules and spirit of our constitutional system even when to do so is personally inconvenient or yields a politically unfavorable outcome. Our Constitution is brilliant and awesome; it deserves a government to match it.
    — Justin Amash (@justinamash) May 18, 2019


Who can really argue against that?  Someone may disagree with his final conclusion regarding obstruction (and only those that HAVE READ IT SHOULD HAVE A FIRM OPINION, otherwise you're only regurgitating media talking points) and whether impeachable but he's not wrong about the rest of it.


-----------------------------------------



> If he is running, he has no chance, anybody who runs against Trump in a primary is throwing away both money and time.
> It a fools errand.
> If they couldn't beat him in 2015/2016, there is no way they have a chance now.


Someone can run in a primary because ya never know what could happen.  Donald could have a massive cheeseburger induced heart attack the day before the convention.  Or something realllllly bad could surface.  Or an assassination.  Or a myriad of other possibilities.  Is primarying an incumbent Pres probably a waste of time and money?  Yes.  Are there reasons to place a long shot bet that Donald may not make it to the convention?  Also yes.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> Who said anything about guilt?  Indictments and impeachments have nothing to do with guilt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How and by what document(s)?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All bull$#@! distraction and you know what I say is absolutely correct.







> You are lying.  Nowhere does Amash say that.


Right in a tweet of his own making... And I think he is lying, He didn't read it himself. They never do, none of them. He tasked his aids as a team to do it for him.


I offer these conclusions only after having read Muellers redacted report carefully and completely, having read or watched pertinent statements and testimony, and having discussed this matter with my staff, who thoroughly reviewed materials and provided me with further analysis.

     Justin Amash (@justinamash) May 18, 2019

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...hable-conduct/

----------


## ATruepatriot

> Looks like Rand and Romney back to the same place everyone always arrives at . No evidence .  One thing is sure . If the dems were to win the next presidential election  all the RPF libertarians should have a truckload of better crimes to talk about .


I trust Rand more than I do Amash.

----------


## acptulsa

> Who here has read the Mueller report?  I haven't.





> Here is a fact if found to be true in the whole of things. *Defending yourself from an illegal action is not obstruction.* If the warrant and investigation were illegal, everything else has absolutely no legal bearing and would be inadmissible in every court of law.


I agree.  But suppose the police get a warrant to search the lair of a thief to look for the television he allegedly stole from me.  And suppose he didn't steal it, but he did steal your computer.  Now, if someone obstructs the police from finding your computer in the thief's lair, is that obstruction?  Even if they are looking for my television?

Smash has read more of the Muller Report than you or I are allowed to see, and probably swore not to reveal what is in certain parts of it.  And if I am going to question what Smash can and does say about these thing I cannot see for myself, I'm not going to do it because it makes somebody who claims to be a Republican look bad.

That's just the way I am.

Nixon did not break in to any offices in the Watergate building, to the best of my knowledge.  But I believe resigning was the right thing for him to do.  Do I think the same about Trump?  I don't know.  But I know this, and I think many people here don't.  Impeachment is not removal from office.  Bill Clinton was impeached.  Impeachment is the airing of the facts.

----------


## oyarde

> I trust Rand more than I do Amash.


I even trust romney if he is not selling tools out of his trunk with a US flag on them that are made in china , LOL

----------


## kcchiefs6465

> Amash wants impeachment 'cause principles. Rand Paul does not want impeachment 'cause principles. Only one is correct. Choose.


Put him on trial for the murder of thousands of Yemenis.

Win/win.

----------


## UWDude

> I agree.  But suppose the police get a warrant to search the lair of a thief to look for the television he allegedly stole from me.  And suppose he didn't steal it, but he did steal your computer.  Now, if someone obstructs the police from finding your computer in the thief's lair, is that obstruction?  Even if they are looking for my television?
> 
> Smash has read more of the Muller Report than you or I are allowed to see, and probably swore not to reveal what is in certain parts of it.  And if I am going to question what Smash can and does say about these thing I cannot see for myself, I'm not going to do it because it makes somebody who claims to be a Republican look bad.
> 
> That's just the way I am.


If it's beyond the scope of the investigation, it doesn't matter.

You don't get to make $#@! up, to go look into peoples houses, and find a crime.
ESPECIALLY against political opponents.

anyways, this is what the little weasel is basing his recommendation for impeachment on:

"the context implies conduct that violates the public trust."

----------


## juleswin

> Put him on trial for the murder of thousands of Yemenis.
> 
> Win/win.


This would have been a 1000x better reason for impeachment but maybe Amash is OK with the president waging war without a declaration.

----------


## TheCount

> All bull$#@! distraction and you know what I say is absolutely correct.


No, you are absolutely wrong, and the fact that you have absolutely nothing to say for yourself is proof of that fact.


The Constitution clearly states in Article I that Congress is granted certain legal immunities in the performance of their duties.  If you are correct, then why does Article II not say _anything_ about the legal protections that the President gets?




> They shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place.







> Right in a tweet of his own making... And I think he is lying, He didn't read it himself. They never do, none of them. He tasked his aids as a team to do it for him.


Now you admit that he didn't say what you said that he said.  Instead, you say that he must be lying about it.  Justin $#@!ing Amash, of all people, is lying about the performance of his duties?

----------


## acptulsa

> If it's beyond the scope of the investigation, it doesn't matter.


And that is exactly the sort of loophole one would expect a partisan fanboi to encourage the object if his devotion to hide behind.  But "the scope of the investigation" does not set parameters as rigidly as the fanbois might hope.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> I agree.  But suppose the police get a warrant to search the lair of a thief to look for the television he allegedly stole from me.  And suppose he didn't steal it, but he did steal your computer.  Now, if someone obstructs the police from finding your computer in the thief's lair, is that obstruction?  Even if they are looking for my television?


Constitutionally A warrant can only be issued for specific items listed on the warrant, legally there is no such thing as an "open warrant" fishing expedition. Anything else they might come across is actually inadmissible and requires a second warrant and investigation to be requested for those secondary findings. Now they don't do it this way and cheat on the constitutional laws all the time this way, but as written that is the facts of it. So... If someone stood in the way of finding the original list they would be obstructing. But if they stood in the way and nothing from the original warrant list was found then it is not, they were rightfully defending from the warrant because it was wrongfully issued and have every right to do so against that particular warrant and warrant list. Now if the warrant was illegally issued in the first place, anything and everything they find or any actions to defend from that warrant are all thrown out and inadmissible as evidence. Constitutionally there is no such thing as a legal fishing trip. There has to be specific detailed and accurate evidence they are seeking. And there has to be factually provable evidence to even get a warrant in the first place. And from what it looks like there was not.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> And that is exactly the sort of loophole one would expect a partisan fanboi to encourage the object if his devotion to hide behind.  But "the scope of the investigation" does not set parameters as rigidly as the fanbois might hope.


It's a Constitutional protection we are all granted by right. It is *due process*.

----------


## acptulsa

> Anything else they might come across is actually inadmissible and requires a second warrant and investigation to be requested for those secondary findings.


"Specific" is an interesting word.  It could apply to "stolen goods", as that (though somewhat vague) does exclude drugs or illegally imported goods or bump stocks or unregistered firearms or child porn or...




> And from what it looks like there was not.


Now we seem to be the ones on a fishing expedition.  But at least we've begun to admit that this thing could be more complicated than it appears.




> It's a Constitutional protection we are all granted by right. It is *due process*.


And it has never been as rigid as a loophole seeking fanboi might hope.  Arguably, the Founders never intended it to be.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> Now we seem to be the ones on a fishing expedition.  But at least we've begun to admit that this thing could be more complicated than it appears.


It is complicated indeed, but that is the reality of law. But this all starts with the cause, The first domino to be pushed over in the chain. If the warrant and investigation was illegal in th first place then everything after has absolutely no standing no matter what it is. Especially any defense against an illegal warrant and investigation. And if these are illegal then all those involved can actually be charged with crimes.

----------


## TheCount

> It's a Constitutional protection we are all granted by right. It is *due process*.


Impeachment *is* due process for the President.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> "Specific" is an interesting word.  It could apply to "stolen goods", as that (though somewhat vague) does exclude drugs or illegally imported goods or bump stocks or unregistered firearms or child porn or...


They are being allowed to word warrants broad like that but they are absolutely not legal. Not only does the warrant have to list an exact item they suspect you might have, it has to include the very serial number of the item from the original theft report. Anything other will get tossed out in court right away. You have no idea how many times I have personally been through this. Without a make, model, and serial number for the warrant you are done and it's a waste of time.




> And it has never been as rigid as a loophole seeking fanboi might hope.  Arguably, the Founders never intended it to be.


They ABSOLUTELY did! unlike what is NOT being afforded to the President it was rightfully designed by the founders to give everyone the right to be *presumed innocent until proven guilty.*

What the hell happened to *constitutional knowledge* around here??? Everyone but the orange man???

----------


## ATruepatriot

> Impeachment *is* due process for the President.


Guilty or not right? Just cause...

----------


## acptulsa

> They are being allowed to word warrants broad like that but they are absolutely not legal. Not only does the warrant have to list an exact item they suspect you might have, it has to include the very serial number of the item from the original theft report. Anything other will get tossed out in court right away. You have no idea how many times I have personally been through this. Without a make, model, and serial number for the warrant you are done and it's a waste of time.
> 
>  They ABSOLUTELY did! unlike what is NOT being afforded to the President it was rightfully designed by the founders to give everyone the right to be *presumed innocent until proven guilty.*
> 
> What the hell happened to *constitutional knowledge* around here??? Everyone but the orange man???


The Founding Fathers intended search warrants to bear serial numbers?

----------


## TheCount

> Guilty or not right? Just cause...


Impeachment has nothing to do with guilt, just like indictment has nothing to do with guilt.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> If it's beyond the scope of the investigation, it doesn't matter.
> 
> You don't get to make $#@! up, to go look into peoples houses, and find a crime.
> ESPECIALLY against political opponents.
> 
> anyways, this is what the little weasel is basing his recommendation for impeachment on:
> 
> "the context implies conduct that violates the public trust."


*ABSOLUTELY*

----------


## susano

> Justin Amash Cumulative Freedom Index Score: *94%*
> 
> https://www.thenewamerican.com/index...nameid=A000367



H R 3354: UN Human Rights Agencies
Vote Date: September 7, 2017	Vote: NAY		Bad Vote.
During consideration of the omnibus appropriations bill (H.R. 3354), Representative Ted Yoho (R-Fla.) introduced an amendment to prohibit the use of funds for making contributions to various United Nations human rights agencies, including the United Nations Human Rights Council, the United Nations Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, and the United Nations Relief and Works Agency.

The House rejected Yoho’s amendment on September 7, 2017 by a vote of 199 to 212 (Roll Call 470). We have assigned pluses to the yeas because taxpayer money should not go to fund any agencies of the United Nations, especially those led by communist, Marxist, or radical Islamic regimes, which are some of the world’s biggest offenders of human rights.




H RES 1099: Opioid Abuse Prevention and Health Programs
Vote Date: September 28, 2018	Vote: NAY		Good Vote.
This bill (H.R. 6), as amended by the House, would expand Medicare and Medicaid to cover medication-assisted treatment for substance abuse and would place new requirements on states regarding Medicaid drug review and utilization requirements. It would appropriate $15 million annually, from fiscal 2019 through fiscal 2023, to support the establishment or operation of public-health laboratories to detect synthetic opioids. The House amendment to the Senate-amended bill would allow Medicaid patients with opioid- or cocaineabuse problems to stay for up to 30 days per year in certain treatment facilities with more than 16 beds.

The House agreed to an amendment to the Senate-amended version of H.R. 6 on September 28, 2018 by a vote of 393 to 8 (Roll Call 415). We have assigned pluses to the nays because Medicare and Medicaid are both unconstitutional programs. The U.S. Constitution gives no authority to the federal government to pay people’s medical expenses, no matter how poor or disabled they are. Such assistance should be handled by states, charity, or the free market. Any expansion of Medicare or Medicaid, which is what this bill authorizes, should be voted against.



Without getting into specific and detailed arguments about either of these, I would just note he's cool with sending US tax/debt funds to an international, unelected body trying to undermine national sovereignty but opposes US tax/debt funds to assist Americans with the most successful treatment known for addiction (medicated assisted therapy). 

I don't know what his deal is but to say this bull$#@! about Trump committing impeachable offenses (lies) and never having spoken up about the deep state/shadow government coup led by communists like Brennan really is not okay. There's no bigger threat to our freedom than the deep state/intel agencies. The f-ing FBI, along with the Southern Poverty Law Center, orchestrated the Oklahoma City Murrah Bldg bombing, including providing the explosives. Same with the World Trade Center bombing a year earlier. There would no "domestic terrorism" without the FBI but let's impeach Trump who the FBI and the rest of the  deep state targeted and tried to frame!!!

----------


## ATruepatriot

> Impeachment has nothing to do with guilt, just like indictment has nothing to do with guilt.


This is absolutely NOT true. In all cases there has to first be evidence. You can't just go around indicting folks because you just happen to not like them. Can you just imagine this if true? lol

Apparently you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about at all.

----------


## enhanced_deficit

> Serious question:
> 
> What did Trump do, specifically, to "obstruct justice"?
> 
> ...


Have not read Report  but based on reports in public domain,  following was sampling of only some of the things   being thrown out by TDS critics  regarding obstruction charge, there   may be other un-redacted stuff, Flynn tapes etc.





> If there was no evidence of Obstruction Of Justice, why he left the door open for the OoJ charge?
> Two years of investigations and deliberations ought to be enough, nation   really needed a closure on this divisive issue to move on. 
> 
> Update 1:
> This does not seem like obstruction of justice:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...

----------


## nobody's_hero

> Looks like he actually has personal financial interests that could possibly have some influence in this... This raises question marks for me.
> 
> Michigan Republican Congressman Justin Amash made headlines Saturday by declaring on Twitter that President Trump deserved impeachment.  The media was quick to promote his position and advance an anti-Trump narrative.  However, a review of Amash’s financial interests quickly reveals a very personal business motive.  His family tool business is heavily invested in Chinese manufacturing.
> 
> In his 2017 financial disclosure forms (pdf here), Representative Amash reports income of between $100,000 to $1,000,000/yr. for his ownership stake in Michigan Industrial Tools.  Michigan Industrial Tools is the parent company, manufacturing in China, that produces Tekton Tools, Justin Amash’s Michigan family business.
> 
> According to an earlier Michigan article “Amash is a co-owner of Dynamic Source International, a Chinese company that supplies Michigan Industrial Tools.”  A visit to the website of Dynamic Source International (link) shows the company operates “manufacturing and factory facilities located in Hangzhou, capital city of Zhejiang Province”, China.
> 
> https://theconservativetreehouse.com...ests-in-china/


He's cooked then.

What irks me about this whole thing is that Trump is showing impressive restraint. If he were going after the corrupt lefties as hard as they're going after him, the Potomac would be red with blood. 

The democrats are acting like the psycho possessive girlfriend that stalks you after you try to walk out of a bad relationship. If you stay with her, she's gonna end up getting b*tch slapped. So you try to do the honorable thing and shrug it off, but she won't let you.
*
AKA: Hillary lost, get over it.*

----------


## ATruepatriot

> The Founding Fathers intended search warrants to bear serial numbers?


"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

And I can tell you for a fact that if cannot give the police a serial number nothing will ever come of it ever. And even on a warrant with no serial number it will be tossed. Been there many times already both as a victim and a suspect.

----------


## acptulsa

> This is absolutely NOT true. In all cases there has to first be evidence. You can't just go around indicting folks because you just happen to not like them. Can you just imagine this if true? lol
> 
> Apparently you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about at all.


Neither one is a finding of guilt.  Only a judge or a jury (Congress being the jury in the case of impeachment) can declare someone guilty.

Inictment and impeachment merely put the case before the jury.




> He's cooked then.
> 
> What irks me about this whole thing is that Trump is showing impressive restraint. If he were going after the corrupt lefties as hard as they're going after him, the Potomac would be red with blood. 
> 
> The democrats are acting like the psycho possessive girlfriend that stalks you after you try to walk out of a bad relationship. If you stay with her, she's gonna end up getting b*tch slapped. So you try to do the honorable thing and shrug it off, but she won't let you.
> *
> AKA: Hillary lost, get over it.*


Well said.  Yes, they're just doing to Trump what was done to Clinton.  But they'd still be wiser to grow up.

Hopefully this will wise all parties up, and once they're even the tit for tat will go tits up.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> He's cooked then.
> 
> What irks me about this whole thing is that Trump is showing impressive restraint. If he were going after the corrupt lefties as hard as they're going after him, the Potomac would be red with blood. 
> 
> The democrats are acting like the psycho possessive girlfriend that stalks you after you try to walk out of a bad relationship. If you stay with her, she's gonna end up getting b*tch slapped. So you try to do the honorable thing and shrug it off, but she won't let you.
> 
> AKA: Hillary lost, get over it.


It's childish, and there are apparently a lot of children in the room and no adults in the room.

----------


## susano

> So, impeach him already...I fail to see how more talk will reduce "extreme partisanship".
> 
> I've said all along that "I don't like that $#@!ing guy" is not an impeachable offense, but who knows these days?
> 
> That's what the idiot GOP impeached Bill Clinton for in the 90s, instead of *real* high crimes like selling missile guidance technology to the ChiComs and reactor technology to the North Koreans or the mass murders in Waco Texas, and you see how far that went.


Hear, hear! The Clintons could be charged with treason for Chinagate. I felt exactly as you when he was impeached over lying about Lewinsky. Yeah, he should have been thrown out for that conduct in the oval office but should have gone to prison over China.

----------


## TheCount

> This is absolutely NOT true. In all cases there has to first be evidence.


Evidence and guilt are not the same thing, Wormtongue.

----------


## Zippyjuan

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...ueller-1332780

Amash's twitter posts:  https://twitter.com/justinamash?ref_...Ctwgr%5Eauthor




> Michigan Rep. Justin Amash became the first Republican lawmaker to declare that President Donald Trump committed impeachable offenses and that Attorney General William Barr “deliberately misrepresented” special counsel Robert Mueller’s report.
> 
> Amash, whose libertarian views often put him at odds with Trump and his fellow Republicans, posted a series of tweets Saturday afternoon outlining positions that even some Democrats have been unwilling to embrace — an extraordinary development that comes as Democratic leaders face increasing pressure from progressives to launch impeachment proceedings.
> 
> “Contrary to Barr’s portrayal, Mueller’s report reveals that President Trump engaged in specific actions and a pattern of behavior that meet the threshold for impeachment,” Amash wrote, arguing that lawmakers have become too afraid of using impeachment to deter presidential misconduct.
> 
> “Impeachment, which is a special form of indictment, does not even require probable cause that a crime (e.g., obstruction of justice) has been committed; it simply requires a finding that an official has engaged in careless, abusive, corrupt, or otherwise dishonorable conduct,” Amash wrote.
> 
> In recent days, more rank-and-file Democrats have said they support initiating impeachment proceedings against the president; but Speaker Nancy Pelosi and most Democratic leaders and committee chairs have resisted those calls, citing their ongoing investigations into the president’s alleged conduct. The House Judiciary Committee, for example, is investigating Trump for allegations of obstruction of justice and abuses of power.
> ...

----------


## ATruepatriot

> Neither one is a finding of guilt.  Only a judge or a jury (Congress being the jury in the case of impeachment) can declare someone guilty.
> 
> Inictment and impeachment merely put the case before the jury.


Before you can make a case you have to have reason to make a case. You just can't do this to anyone you like any time you like. Better go look it up, because you are wrong. Can you imagine what our justice system would be like if this was the case? Seriously...

----------


## susano

> How again did Trump obstruct justice? Also, I cannot side with nailing someone for obstructing justice when then real crime being investigated is non existent. Precedent be damned.


It's Kafkaesque. When someone tries to FRAME you and people around you, dare to object and it's "obstruction of justice". Meanwhile, Comey gave the green light for the Clinton mafia to actually destroy evidence (hard drives, cell phones, documents). Remember Amash being outraged about that? Neither do I.

----------


## acptulsa

You're a day late and 227 posts short there, NeoZippy.  Didn't your predecessor teach you how to use this kludgy search function before he quit?

----------


## Dr.3D

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...chable-offense

----------


## ATruepatriot

> Evidence and guilt are not the same thing, Wormtongue.


There it is... The immature childish derogatory retort. Verifies I am one of the adults in the room. Thank you.

----------


## acptulsa

> Before you can make a case you have to have reason to make a case. You just can't do this to anyone you like any time you like. Better go look it up, because you are wrong. Can you imagine what our justice system would be like if this was the case? Seriously...


Yes, an indictment (or impeachment, or even just a warrant) must be based on evidence.  Where did I say otherwise?  Quote it.

Neither an indictment nor an impeachment is a finding of guilt.  It's just the step that leads to the trial.  Right?  Are you denying it?

Now.  What am I wrong about?

There are posters around in such a mad rush to reply that they post replies that make no sense.  I say, what's the big hurry?  Where's the fire?

----------


## nobody's_hero

> This is getting silly.





> It started silly.


I think I have to go edit my signature now, hahaha.

----------


## TheCount

> There it is... The immature childish derogatory retort. Verifies I am one of the adults in the room. Thank you.


It's appropriate when what you're trying to do is conflate two entirely different things in an intellectually dishonest manner.  Specifically, what you're doing is called motte and bailey.  In this case, guilt is the bailey and evidence is the motte.




> Motte and bailey (MAB) is a combination of bait-and-switch and equivocation in which someone switches between a "motte" (an easy-to-defend and often common-sense statement, such as "culture shapes our experiences") and a "bailey" (a hard-to-defend and more controversial statement, such as "cultural knowledge is just as valid as scientific knowledge") in order to defend a viewpoint. Someone will argue the easy-to-defend position (motte) temporarily, to ward off critics, while the less-defensible position (bailey) remains the desired belief, yet is never actually defended.
> 
> In short: instead of defending a weak position (the "bailey"), the arguer retreats to a strong position (the "motte"), while acting as though the positions are equivalent. When the motte has been accepted (or found impenetrable) by an opponent, the arguer continues to believe (and perhaps promote) the bailey.

----------


## susano

> With such an incredibly high Freedom Index Score of 94% it is easy to figure out why the Anti-Freedom Shills want him ousted. Take a look at this thread, for instance.


Exactly where does a deep state state coup, in conjunction with  foreign entities, framing and spying on innocent people with the intent to destroy them to get at Trump, and Trump and these people objecting to such an abuse of power, fit in with your idea of "freedom"? What's been going on here is equivalent to Soviet show trials.

----------


## devil21

> His whole TDS ramble can be read here: https://twitter.com/justinamash/stat...31626844921862
> 
> Dude's a loser and should be voted out.


Ya know, this stuff really irks me.  Myself and a lot of other liberty activists just finished busting ours asses for 2 straight months, day after day, to try to get a liberty-minded person _into_ the US House (Ridenhour NC9).  And some of you are calling to _remove_ one of the most steadfast liberty Representatives in the House over some TRUMP junk.  Makes me wonder why bust our asses when some of our (allegedly) own will so flippantly call for the removal of a liberty Rep over the conduct of a President that so far has done practically nothing liberty platform oriented?

And obviously with no foresight whatsoever because whoever would replace him would be MUCH, MUCH worse than Amash ever could be.  Do you people think we have liberty candidates lined up across the board ready to win office?  In Ridenhour's race, the winner spent a quarter million dollars _of his own money_ to win.  Are you prepared to max out on every liberty candidate's campaign?  If the answer is no then zip it.  You're hurting more than helping and I'd guess doing precisely ZERO in your own life to get liberty candidates into office.

----------


## acptulsa

> Exactly where does a deep state state coup, in conjunction with  foreign entities, framing and spying on innocent people with the intent to destroy them to get at Trump, and Trump and these people objecting to such an abuse of power, fit in with your idea of "freedom"? What's been going on here is equivalent to Soviet show trials.


A call for impeachment is a call to air evidence which has, so far, been kept secret.  If any of this is Soviet-like, it isn't what Amash said.




> Ya know, this stuff really irks me.  Myself and a lot of other liberty activists just finished busting ours asses for 2 straight months, day after day, to try to get a liberty-minded person _into_ the US House (Ridenhour NC9).  And some of you are calling to _remove_ one of the most steadfast liberty Representatives in the House over some TRUMP junk.  Makes me wonder why bust our asses when some of our (allegedly) own will so flippantly call for the removal of a liberty Rep over the conduct of a President that so far has done practically nothing liberty platform oriented?


When you throw all principle to the wind to defend some clown just because you don't want to admit voting for him was a mistake, you become a useful idiot for the Establishment.  And when you act as a useful idiot for the Establishment, you just can't help becoming a useful idiot for Democrats.

But you know.  Purists keep us from nibbling at our problems blah blah blah.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> Yes, an indictment (or impeachment, or even just a warrant) must be based on evidence.  Where did I say otherwise?  Quote it.


Read back through your own replies, it is there if you are honest about it.




> Neither an indictment nor an impeachment is a finding of guilt.  It's just the step that leads to the trial.  Right?  Are you denying it?


Absolutely... But first there must be a case to justify. To justify a case there first must be evidence. You just can't assume someone is guilty based on rumor like many here are without any evidence yet. EVERYONE even the Orange man are innocent until proven guilty and he has been found guilty of a pre-crime here based on *rumors so far*  from Amash.

He is not being afforded equal due process, he IS NOT GUILTY just because Amash says so.

----------


## susano

> Due to his recent behavior I don't expect that he will for much longer.


He'll get re-elected because he's an incumbent Republican in a conservative district. While more libscum have discovered our corner of the world and many immigrants have been shipped in, I don't see Amash scoring with Degenocrats, no matter how much he panders to the "Resist" crowd. They're looking at abortion and they will vote left.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> A call for impeachment is a call to air evidence which has, so far, been kept secret.  If any of this is Soviet-like, it isn't what Amash said.


You have to have evidence to even call for impeachment. Wouldn't it have been nice to just say "I think he did something" and call for impeachment of Obama back when? I would have stuck up for Obama also if they had tried this because it is unconstitutional and in the very least a bad bad road to start down.

----------


## nobody's_hero

they're not gonna impeach.





The democrats think there's a lot more to be gained by dragging this out as long as possible and leaving the smell hanging in the air up until election day. If they go to impeach, they're gonna have their asses handed to them just like when they pushed the Kavanaugh hearings to a head. You repeat something enough, it becomes true, but after a point, it's just tiresome. I say let them drag it out, then, until the phrase "Russia collusion" is an worn-out accusation to the point of being meaningless, like "racism."a term the left has also destroyed.

----------


## acptulsa

> Read back through your own replies, it is there if you are honest about it.


Why the cop out?  You say I was wrong about something specific.  Name it or do your reputation the courtesy of retracting your charge.




> Absolutely... But first there must be a case to justify. To justify a case there first must be evidence. You just can't assume someone is guilty based on rumor like many here are without any evidence yet. EVERYONE even the Orange man are innocent until proven guilty and he has been found guilty of a pre-crime here based on *rumors so far*  from Amash.
> 
> He is not being afforded equal due process, he IS NOT GUILTY just because Amash says so.





> You have to have evidence to even call for impeachment. Wouldn't it have been nice to just say "I think he did something" and call for impeachment of Obama back when? I would have stuck up for Obama also if they had tried this because it is unconstitutional and in the very least a bad bad road to start down.


And the Muller Report, which Justin Amash has access to in its entirety and you do not, is not devoid of such evidence because you say so.  If you'd care to make the case that someone else, who also has access and has contradicted Amash, is more credible, that might be an argument worth considering.

----------


## swissaustrian

> And it is no different than charging somebody under the sole charge of "resisting arrest" when no other crime has been committed.  It is a strange world when one sees self claimed libertarians arguing in favor of such absurdities.


I am not arguing in favor of it. I think criminal justice has no place in a free society. All disputes should be settled in civil courts via tort law. 

But obstruction is definitely not the same type of crime as resisting arrest, because as I tried to explain: the collection of evidence is essential to achieving an indictment while resisting arrest is about the claim of the government over what it claims is its "legitimate power monopoly" (not my words, their words).
If the collection of evidence is obstructed (which is NOT claimed in the Mueller report by the way), the chance of achieving an indictment is lowered. And there is even a possibility that the underlying crime cannot be proven beyond reasonable doubt, because of the obstruction (see the Clinton investigation as an example). I look at it this way: Criminal justice procedures are not about the objective truth, they are about a provable subjective story that is constructed by the prosecutors and to be debunked by the defendant. The exisiting rules and regulations of criminal justice are a weird compromise between the privacy interests of the defendant and the interest of prosecutors to have the tools needed to reach the high standard of proof. The bar has been moved further and further towards the interests of the government and I dont support that at all.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> It's appropriate when what you're trying to do is conflate two entirely different things in an intellectually dishonest manner.  Specifically, what you're doing is called motte and bailey.  In this case, guilt is the bailey and evidence is the motte.


I know what it means... And what you have done is trash the constitution and thrown it out the door. Look... Think about this reality... This very thing is what would have happened to Ron Paul from BOTH sides had he been elected. This would have been absolutely justifiable based on the perspective you are spouting here...

----------


## susano

> I like that Rand is helping Trump stop the Marxists. Amash seems to just be a never Trumper. Not impressed.
> 
> *Trump certainly has his negatives, like all presidents, but his positives are better than any president I have seen in 50 years.*



^^THIS

The moment he said "we need to get rid of this political correctness" I was all in. Just busting that Marxist brainwashing has made him worth it.

----------


## Superfluous Man

I am so proud of Justin.

I can't wait to see the names our resident alt-right trolls will call Ron Paul after he weighs in on this.

----------


## acptulsa

> I know what it means... And what you have done is trash the constitution and thrown it out the door. Look... Think about this reality... This very thing is what would have happened to Ron Paul from BOTH sides had he been elected. This would have been absolutely justifiable based on the perspective you are spouting here...


Evoking Ron Paul's name isn't hiding the fact that you're casting more vague and baseless aspersions.  The Constitution considers neither an indictment nor impeachment a finding of guilt.

You know, I liked Clinton's impeachment, and not because I'm a partisan.  Ken Starr's forty million was a small price to pay to keep Congress busy not screwing We the People for months on end.

----------


## nikcers

some of you guys are as bad as the birthers

----------


## Cleaner44

The way I see it is simple. There is a big problem threatening our republic and it is idiots that believe in Marxist nonsense. There are plenty of problems with the Republican party, just as there is with the Libertarian party, but the GOP is our best chance to beat back the Marxist hoard. You are either part of the problem, part of the solution or neutral. 

Amash could choose to be neutral and that would be fine. Amash could choose to be part of the solution like Rand Paul is doing. Instead Amash has chosen to be part of the problem and aligned himself with Maxine Waters and Jennifer Rubin. For what purpose? 

Trump will not be removed from office. He probably will be re-elected in 2020. If Amash doesn't want to work with Trump and offer advice like Rand does, then why not stay the hell out of the way? Instead he wants to push for president Pence? Stupid.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> The way I see it is simple. There is a big problem threatening our republic and it is idiots that believe in Marxist nonsense.


Let's not forget out of all such marxist idiots, the one who occupies the most powerful position in the world is Donald Trump.

Pence is bad. But at least he's probably not as bad as Trump.

----------


## TheCount

> And what you have done is trash the constitution and thrown it out the door.


Which part?  The imaginary part where the president has legal immunity?  The alternative constitution in which the president is an all-powerful dictator?





> Look... Think about this reality... This very thing is what would have happened to Ron Paul from BOTH sides had he been elected. This would have been absolutely justifiable based on the perspective you are spouting here...


I reject your supposed reality in which Trump and Ron are comparable in this or any other manner.

----------


## devil21

> A call for impeachment is a call to air evidence which has, so far, been kept secret.  If any of this is Soviet-like, it isn't what Amash said.


Sadly, you can't reach people that have thoroughly swallowed the scripted narrative of a "deep state coup" against Trump.  They're too far gone into the fluoride-induced mind control trance of the tv "news" productions.




> When you throw all principle to the wind to defend some clown just because you don't want to admit voting for him was a mistake, you become a useful idiot for the Establishment.  And when you act as a useful idiot for the Establishment, you just can't help becoming a useful idiot for Democrats.
> 
> But you know.  Purists keep us from nibbling at our problems blah blah blah.


I can't imagine living in such a mental state where all the lessons learned from Dr. Paul's campaigns left literally no imprint such a relatively short time later.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> Sadly, you can't reach people that have thoroughly swallowed the scripted narrative of a "deep state coup" against Trump.  They're too far gone into the fluoride-induced mind control trance of the tv "news" productions.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't imagine living in such a mental state where all the lessons learned from Dr. Paul's campaigns left literally no imprint such a relatively short time later.


+rep

----------


## ATruepatriot

[QUOTE=acptulsa;6799239]Why the cop out?  You say I was wrong about something specific.  Name it or do your reputation the courtesy of retracting your charge.

"Inictment and impeachment * merely* put the case before the jury."

You just don't "merely" put ANY case before a jury at will. There has to be credible evidence first. This is a prerequisite and serious, it's not something you can just merely do at will and not view as being very serious, even more serious than a jury. The term "merely" indicates no big deal about it as if it is just a simple thing compared to a jury when it is not.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post6799208




> And the Muller Report, which Justin Amash has access to in its entirety and you do not, is not devoid of such evidence because you say so.  If you'd care to make the case that someone else, who also has access and has contradicted Amash, is more credible, that might be an argument worth considering.


RAND PAUL... And all the rest of Congress peers who have also read it. All these other judges don't count? only Amash? Sorry but something smells with this so far. And I actually like Amash.

----------


## acptulsa

> QUOTE=acptulsa;6799239]Why the cop out?  You say I was wrong about something specific.  Name it or do your reputation the courtesy of retracting your charge.
> 
> "Inictment and impeachment * merely* put the case before the jury."
> 
> You just don't "merely" put ANY case before a jury at will. There has to be credible evidence first. This is a prerequisite and serious, it's not something you can just merely do at will and not view as being very serious, even more serious than a jury. The term "merely" indicates no big deal about it as if it is just a simple thing compared to a jury when it is not.
> 
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post6799208


That's it?  I'm dead wrong merely because you disapprove of my choice of adverb?

Well, then.  You're entitled to that opinion.  Thanks for clarifying.




> RAND PAUL... And all the rest of Congress peers who have also read it. All these other judges don't count? only Amash? Sorry but something smells with this so far. And I actually like Amash.


And where did Rand Paul say he read it and found absolutely no evidence of obstruction?  I haven't seen that quote.  Sounds interesting.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> I reject your supposed reality in which Trump and Ron are comparable in this or any other manner.


You can reject it all you like... It is absolute fact. Ron would have been in the same boat and you would have been bitching and crying your head off if they tried this with him and so would I! THEN the Constitution would have absolutely mattered to you. The perspective you spout here is both a double standard and hypocrisy compared to if Ron was in this position. You are selectively recognizing the constitution with a huge bias against who benefits from it and who has no right to benefit from it.

THIS TRASHING OF THE CONSTITUTION IS NOT LIBERTARIAN, IT IS 100% LIBERAL.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> And where did Rand Paul say he read it and found absolutely no evidence of obstruction?  I haven't seen that quote.  Sounds interesting.


It's been all over the news this morning.  I even read here on this site earlier.

----------


## acptulsa

> You can reject it all you like... It is absolute fact. Ron would have been in the same boat and you would have been bitching and crying your head off if they tried this with him and so would I! THEN the Constitution would have absolutely mattered to you. The perspective you spout here is both a double standard and hypocrisy compared to if Ron was in this position. You are selectively recognizing the constitution with a huge bias against who benefits from it and who has no right to benefit from it.
> 
> THIS TRASHING OF THE CONSTITUTION IS NOT LIBERTARIAN, IT IS 100% LIBERAL.


What are you on about now?  What if he'd have loved it because, one, the Congress would have been making a fool of itself trying President Paul over nothing, and two, the Congress would have been too busy doing that to get up to other mischief?

Do you work for the Psychic Network?




> It's been all over the news this morning.  I even read here on this site earlier.


How did I miss that?  Suppose I could trouble you for a link, or do you remember a useful keyword I could search?

----------


## TheCount

> You can reject it all you like... It is absolute fact. Ron would have been in the same boat and you would have been bitching and crying your head off if they tried this with him and so would I! THEN the Constitution would have absolutely mattered to you. The perspective you spout here is both a double standard and hypocrisy compared to if Ron was in this position. You are selectively recognizing the constitution with a huge bias against who benefits from it and who has no right to benefit from it.


Why do you keep quoting less and less of my posts?

Why are you avoiding the meat of the discussion in order to focus on entirely made-up $#@!?  Weren't you pretending to be all about facts and logic and due process?  If so, why do you continue to dodge discussion of facts in order to instead make this all about feelings?




> THIS TRASHING OF THE CONSTITUTION IS NOT LIBERTARIAN, IT IS 100% LIBERAL.





> Which part? The imaginary part where the president has legal immunity? The alternative constitution in which the president is an all-powerful dictator?





> The Constitution clearly states in Article I that Congress is granted certain legal immunities in the performance of their duties. If you are correct, then why does Article II not say _anything_ about the legal protections that the President gets?





> Impeachment *is* due process for the President.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> Evoking Ron Paul's name isn't hiding the fact that you're casting more vague and baseless aspersions.  The Constitution considers neither an indictment nor impeachment a finding of guilt.


The point is the constitution does grant the right to the presumption of innocence and due process. Ron would have absolutely been slammed like this by both sides and the constitution would have afforded him protections from it. But now the constitution is out the door and now doesn't apply and afford the orange man the same protections? This is biased hypocrisy and the constitution is not biased depending on who is to receive these equal rights. And any true Libertarian would first recognize the constitution, both good or bad of it, before anything else. Just like RON PAUL DOES.

----------


## susano

> Lets see the redacted portions that Amash is basing it on. How are we to judge otherwise.


We judge by the fact that the "investigation" was illegitimate in the first place. It was the "insurance policy" in the event that Trump actually won and it was financed by the Clinton Mafia and US taxpayers. What has gone on against Donald Trump is the classic narcissistic smear campaign, driven by Hillary Clinton's "dark triad" (narcissist, psychopath, Machiavellian) rage at being denied what she felt entitled to. Assisted by her army of flying monkeys and New World Order globalists and Mockingbird press, it was and is a coup by criminals to keep and further tighten their stranglehold on the Unites States while looting and destroying it, along with our constitution and freedoms. There is no obstruction because there was never any crime. Trump pushed back against a set up, a frame job, a "witch hunt", as he should have. In spite of all of that, the White House turned over millions of documents to the special counsel (also a bunch of criminals and Clintonistas) and cooperated with this outrageous, Soviet style political assault. As for firing Comey, Trump had the authority and right to do it and even Comey admitted that.

----------


## acptulsa

> The point is the constitution does grant the right to the presumption of innocence and due process. Ron would have absolutely been slammed like this by both sides and the constitution would have afforded him protections from it. But now the constitution is out the door and now doesn't apply and afford the orange man the same protections? This is biased hypocrisy and the constitution is not biased depending on who is to receive these equal rights. And any true Libertarian would first recognize the constitution, both good or bad of it, before anything else. Just like RON PAUL DOES.


Is there an echo in here?

Repeating something doesn't make what I said about it any less true.




> We judge by the fact that the "investigation" was illegitimate in the first place. It was the "insurance policy" in the event that Trump actually won and it was financed by the Clinton Mafia and US taxpayers. What has gone on against Donald Trump is the classic narcissistic smear campaign, driven by Hillary Clinton's "dark triad" (narcissist, psychopath, Machiavellian) rage at being denied what she felt entitled to. Assisted by her army of flying monkeys and New World Order globalists and Mockingbird press, it was and is a coup by criminals to keep and further tighten their stranglehold on the Unites States while looting and destroying it, along with our constitution and freedoms. There is no obstruction because there was never any crime. Trump pushed back against a set up, a frame job, a "witch hunt", as he should have. In spite of all of that, the White House turned over millions of documents to the special counsel (also a bunch of criminals and Clintonistas) and cooperated with this outrageous, Soviet style political assault. As for firing Comey, Trump had the authority and right to do it and even Comey admitted that.


Either that, or it's designed to rally Trump's base around him while he runs up the debt, bans bump stocks, ramps up foreign wars, and does a dozen other things he was clearly not hired to do.

----------


## susano

> I am defending Amashs 94% Freedom Index Record, one of which trump could never reach with a ten yard pole.
> 
> BTW, open borders yes, but ask Justin if he would advocate incentive/welfare payments, such that trumps long term goal will provide even more, which you are too blind to see, or admit. Ive been around the block a few hundred times and know how such things work.


So, would you support open borders as long as we got rid of all welfare and social safety net programs? As Milton Friedman said, you can only have one or the other.

Do you think nation states should be dissolved?

----------


## Champ

Amash had taken issue with Trump long before this.  This wasn't the beginning.  Amash did not just sit down with his team, analyze the Mueller report, and suddenly come to the conclusion to lambaste Trump on twitter as a result due to principle. He tweeted about a month ago that he was going to do this, yet the issue ultimately goes back much farther than that.  You can see on his Twitter feed right before he came out with this new batch of tweets, he was angered over the tariff situation and before that with overreach by the executive branch, which every single president is guilty of going back to Washington.  On and on.  

Like some have pointed out, he may not be too happy with the tariff situation hurting his business, but I'm sure it's even deeper than that, because he was calling for impeachment at least 2 years ago.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> Why do you keep quoting less and less of my posts?
> 
> Why are you avoiding the meat of the discussion in order to focus on entirely made-up $#@!?  Weren't you pretending to be all about facts and logic and due process?  If so, why do you continue to dodge discussion of facts in order to instead make this all about feelings?


I made my case and you blew it off and now want to waste my time and make me repeat it. The fact is you now have no credibility in the debate because you are a pseudo Libertarian have no belief in Constitutional rights. I now know you are nothing but a full blown dishonest anti-constitutional Liberal masquerading as a Libertarian. Until you can debate productive truth without spin we are done.

----------


## acptulsa

> I made my case...


No.  But if it makes you feel better, here's a Participation Trophy.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> That's a lovely sentiment, but it still doesn't support the position you took earlier.


Again... Yes it does...

----------


## ATruepatriot

> No.  But if it makes you feel better, here's a Participation Trophy.


So you and the Count are the same account?

----------


## acptulsa

> Again... Yes it does...


No.  Do we want a bigger trophy?

----------


## acptulsa

> So you and the Count are the same account?


You think I have to be someone else to see that you failed to prove your point?

----------


## ATruepatriot

> No.  Do we want a bigger trophy?


Much better! Thank you!

----------


## ATruepatriot

> You think I have to be someone else to see that you failed to prove your point?


I made my point well, you have chosen to ignore the reality and truth of it.

----------


## acptulsa

> I made my point well, you have chosen to ignore the reality and truth of it.


Now I see that no trophy I could give you can compare with the ones you give yourself.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> Now I see that no trophy I could give you can compare with the ones you give yourself.


Only when I know I am absolutely correct based on reality.

----------


## Stratovarious

Under Amash's careful (cough) guidance ( 'He said' ) ,name  Presidents 
since and including George Washington that had not committed 'impeachable'
 offences.........

----------


## Stratovarious

> Only when I know I am absolutely correct based on reality.


Correct Sir,,,,


'_You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ATruepatriot again.'_

----------


## acptulsa

> Correct Sir,,,,
> 
> 
> '_You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ATruepatriot again.'_


Oh?  And can you summarize for us what he was correct about?

----------


## PAF

> So, would you support open borders as long as we got rid of all welfare and social safety net programs?


Absolutely.




> As Milton Friedman said, you can only have one or the other.


Exactly. But rather than restrict the freedom to travel freely, mandate anti-4th "papers please" and central government databases, invoke government eminent domain to take rightful property from people and businesses, the only solution is to end the incentive/welfare which would solve the root problem.




> Do you think nation states should be dissolved?


[/quote[

I firmly support Private Property Rights (see my sig), which seems to be going by the way-side on this forum.

----------


## pcosmar

> One thing I like that Trump has done is made it easier for people who are out of options to try experimental medicines


Nope.. 
Cannabis legalization was well underway before him..

----------


## susano

> I DONT NEED TO.
> THERE WAS NO RUSSIAN COLLUSION.
> PERIOD.  END OF.
> 
> Anything Trump did to try to block this stream of treasonous BS about Russian collusion, is cool in my book.
> Hell if he would have had Meuller killed with the heart attack gun, I would have been cool with it, because, THE WHOLE THING WAS MADE UP, TREASONOUS NONSENSE, FOR WHICH *TENS OF THOUSANDS NEED TO BE EXECUTED*.


lol

That's a tad extreme but otherwise, fvck yeah.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> The facts don't seem to matter to the trumpcucks.


LOL

Pure projection, the facts are on Trump's side and totally against Amash.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Why not?
> 
> I don't care really,,but I am Curious.. What about the Lying trouble making Clown is worth defending?


Because his replacement would be worse.

----------


## susano

> Absolutely.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. But rather than restrict the freedom to travel freely, mandate anti-4th "papers please" and central government databases, invoke government eminent domain to take rightful property from people and businesses, the only solution is to end the incentive/welfare which would solve the root problem.
> 
> 
> [/quote[
> 
> I firmly support Private Property Rights (see my sig), which seems to be going by the way-side on this forum.



More specifically, you would end all welfare/social safety net (etc) for EVERYONE (American and non), correct?

Do you realize that while the US would have no borders in your vision, most of the rest of world would?

Supporting the right to private property doesn't answer my question about nation-states. Do you think they should be abolished?

----------


## angelatc

> You can't defend his lie so you are deflecting.
> I don't want him ousted for the same reason I don't want Trump impeached.


These aren't Donald Trump forums, FFS.

One of Amash's big points was that the people defending him were doing so immediately, before they had any time at all to read the report.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Impeachment *is* due process for the President.


Not on fantasy charges that are the fruit of a poisonous tree.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> These aren't Donald Trump forums, FFS.
> 
> One of Amash's big points was that the people defending him were doing so immediately, before they had any time at all to read the report.


I don't care about Amash's opinion of people who jump to Trump's defense, what Amash is doing that I object to is lying and pushing impeachment on fantasy charges that are the fruit of a poisonous tree.

If there was any basis for obstruction Mueller would have recommended impeachment for it instead of weaseling around saying he "couldn't exonerate" Trump for it.

----------


## UWDude

> These aren't Donald Trump forums, FFS.
> 
> One of Amash's big points was that the people defending him were doing so immediately, before they had any time at all to read the report.


No need to read a report on how Trump reacted to a witch hunt.

Instead of condemning the witch hunt, Amash is condeming the victim of the witch hunt.

Dastardly.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Neither one is a finding of guilt.  Only a judge or a jury (Congress being the jury in the case of impeachment) can declare someone guilty.
> 
> Inictment and impeachment merely put the case before the jury.


There still has to be evidence of guilt that is not the fruit of a poisonous tree and there isn't.





> Well said.  Yes, they're just doing to Trump what was done to Clinton.  But they'd still be wiser to grow up.
> 
> Hopefully this will wise all parties up, and once they're even the tit for tat will go tits up.


LOL

What was done to Clinton was done to save him from Chinagate, what is being done to trump is further treason that is partially intended to benefit Communist China.

----------


## susano

> Good thing that no one that Trump endorses actually wins.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Collusion is not what Amash is alleging.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, then carry on Mein Fuhrer.  Mind control sold to you, sir.



Trump has endorsed candidates who've won.

There is no such crime as "collusion" and Amash is alleging obstruction on a two year + deep state operation and "investigation" of of said non crime (fishing expedition) in which the corrupt conspirators tried to frame the president and numerous others. 

_Lavrentiy Beria, the most ruthless and longest-serving secret police chief in Joseph Stalins reign of terror in Russia and Eastern Europe, bragged that he could prove criminal conduct on anyone, even the innocent.

Show me the man and Ill show you the crime was Berias infamous boast. He served as deputy premier from 1941 until Stalins death in 1953, 

Beria targeted the man first, then proceeded to find or fabricate a crime. Berias modus operandi was to presume the man guilty, and fill in the blanks later. By contrast, under the United States Constitution, theres a presumption of innocence that emanates from the 5th, 6th, and 14th Amendments, as set forth in Coffin vs. U.S. (1895).

Unlike Berias paradigm, U.S. prosecutions start with the discovery of a crime. Then theres an investigation to find or confirm the identity of the perpetrator and collect evidence to prove his or her guilt._

https://www.oxfordeagle.com/2018/05/...you-the-crime/


But never mind all that. Orange man bad. Impeach!

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Nope.. 
> Cannabis legalization was well underway before him..


It's not just about weed, he signed a law giving patients the "right to try" experimental medicines.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> It's Kafkaesque. When someone tries to FRAME you and people around you, dare to object and it's "obstruction of justice". Meanwhile, Comey gave the green light for the Clinton mafia to actually destroy evidence (hard drives, cell phones, documents). Remember Amash being outraged about that? Neither do I.


I don't either, and he opposed impeachment of O'Bummer even though he shredded the Constitution.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> A call for impeachment is a call to air evidence which has, so far, been kept secret.  If any of this is Soviet-like, it isn't what Amash said.


LOL
Impeachment is an attempt to prosecute and doing so on fantasy charges that are the fruit of poisonous tree is Soviet like.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> And the Muller Report, which Justin Amash has access to in its entirety and you do not, is not devoid of such evidence because you say so.  If you'd care to make the case that someone else, who also has access and has contradicted Amash, is more credible, that might be an argument worth considering.


It's devoid of evidence because Mueller himself said it was along with plenty of other people.
And even if there was evidence it would be the fruit of a poisonous tree.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Either that, or it's designed to rally Trump's base around him while he runs up the debt, bans bump stocks, ramps up foreign wars, and does a dozen other things he was clearly not hired to do.


LOL

If that is the case then you should be condemning Amash for helping.

----------


## fcreature

Came here to say I'm done with Amash. I regret all my donations to his campaigns.

The "impeachable offense" is obstruction of justice? Really, Justin? The man had his fourth amendment rights ripped from him and had the full fledged force of the US government attempting to sabotage, spy, and entrap his campaign. The underlying "crime" he "obstructed" (according to Justin) did not even occur. 

How in the world does a small government libertarian support the ability for the federal government goons to put you in prison for obstruction on falsified crimes that never happened? Crimes that were invented with the sole intention of later charging you with obstruction.

TDS does terrible things to people.

----------


## acptulsa

> poisonous tree.





> poisonous tree.





> poisonous tree





> poisonous tree.





> poisonous tree.


Thank you for not spamming.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Thank you for not spamming.


LOL

It's over, get over it:

----------


## ATruepatriot

Even Romney came out against it. And I DID read Rand didn't agree either, just got to find it again.

*Romney: Mueller report did not show obstruction, 'I don't think impeachment is the right way to go'*

Soon after Rep. Justin Amash, R-Mich., went against the GOP consensus by claiming President Trump committed "impeachable conduct" in the form of obstruction of justice, another known Trump critic took the opposite position.

Sen. Mitt Romney, R-Utah, acknowledged that while he has called out Trump when he's deemed it appropriate, he does not believe the Mueller report provided evidence that supports impeaching the president.

"I just dont think that there is the full element that youd need to prove an obstruction of justice case," Romney told host Jake Tapper on CNN's State of the Union on Sunday, while acknowledging, "Everyone reaches their own conclusion."

Still, Romney said he "was troubled by it," but did not feel the allegations laid out in the report were enough to rise to the standard of an obstruction charge.

Romney specifically pointed to the element of intent, which is required as part of an obstruction charge. He said that the lack of any underlying crime -- such as any conspiracy between the Trump campaign and Russia -- makes it difficult to show that Trump's actions were based on a corrupt intent to cover something up.

"You just don't have the elements," Romney said.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rom...ight-way-to-go

----------


## angelatc

> No need to read a report on how Trump reacted to a witch hunt.
> 
> Instead of condemning the witch hunt, Amash is condeming the victim of the witch hunt.
> 
> Dastardly.


Amash isn't favoring the victim of a witch hunt.  He is of the opinion that the president attempted to obstruct a legal investigation. 

I haven't read the report, but the point remains that a guy who banned bump stocks and seems intent on going to war with Iran is being favored over a guy who has a 94% Constitutional voting record.

----------


## susano

> Bill Clinton was a big wake up call for me.  
> I was shocked and angry a politician lied, and tried to destroy the truth tellers.
> I still did not see it as an impeachable offense.
> Because who he had legal sex with, was nobodies business in the first place.
> I don't care if it was in the oval office.
> That should have stayed between him and Monica.
> Should have never been dragged out into the light, and certainly not for the sake of impeachment.


While I felt he should have impeached and also charged with treason over China, his actions with Lewinsky made him a security risk (never mind the extreme impropriety). She was under his desk giving him a blow job while he was on the phone planning the bombing of Serbia, ffs. He made himself subject to blackmail and sure as hell didn't have a security clearance to be listening on such a conversation. I never cared that he lied about it as much as I cared that he did it.

----------


## angelatc

> TDS does terrible things to people.


On both sides of the issue.

----------


## fcreature

> I haven't read the report, but the point remains that a guy who banned bump stocks and seems intent on going to war with Iran is being favored over a guy who has a 94% Constitutional voting record.


Amash can be right on every other issue and still be incredibly wrong on this. The only thing I am speaking to right now is the subject of this thread. His actions and statements on this are enough for me to never give him a penny, or advocate on his behalf again. If he continues down the path of supporting the police state tactics used on Trump, I'll be supporting his primary challenger.

----------


## nikcers

> Nope.. 
> Cannabis legalization was well underway before him..

----------


## Stratovarious

> Oh?  And can you summarize for us what he was correct about?


: )

Why do you post on this forum?

----------


## acptulsa

> : )
> 
> Why do you post on this forum?


I thought not.

----------


## specsaregood

> Amash isn't favoring the victim of a witch hunt.  He is of the opinion that the president attempted to obstruct a legal investigation.


Meh, I think the target of a witch hunt has the right to do anything to defend themselves.   if there is an impeachable crime here, who is the victim?




> I haven't read the report, but the point remains that a guy who banned bump stocks and seems intent on going to war with Iran is being favored over a guy who has a 94% Constitutional voting record.


If Amash was attacking him on those issues I would have no brook with him on that.

----------


## Stratovarious

> I thought not.


Oh boy!! You're on fire son, nice work!!.........

----------


## Stratovarious

> Under Amash's careful (cough) guidance ( 'He said' ) ,name  Presidents 
> since and including George Washington that had not committed 'impeachable'
>  offences.........





> I thought not.


You sure get quiet quick.


: )

----------


## nobody's_hero

> I am so proud of Justin.
> 
> I can't wait to see the names our resident alt-right trolls will call Ron Paul after he weighs in on this.


Even Ron Paul thinks the left is acting like a bunch of retards over the Russia collusion crap. Hell he's even sided with Trump a few times in the liberty report. There are a lot of things Ron Paul would have problems with as far as how Trump does things, but he draws the line at siding with democrats over a nothing-burger. Amash wants to join the impeachment bandwagon, he's welcome too, but I think he's siding with a bunch of people that would happily see _him_ out of office as well.

----------


## acptulsa

> ...but I think he's siding with a bunch of people that would happily see _him_ out of office as well.


Principle makes strange bedfellows.  Following principle doesn't give one the luxury of choosing allies.

That's why 99 44/100% of politicians avoid principles like the plague.

----------


## nobody's_hero

> Principle makes strange bedfellows.  Following principle doesn't give one the luxury of choosing allies.
> 
> That's why 99 44/100% of politicians avoid principles like the plague.


Oh I have no problem with someone siding with the "other side" over an issue. Heck, Rand Paul working with Democrat Ron Wyden to repeal long-standing parts of the Patriot act comes to mind. What I'm calling into question is the "issue" that Amash is siding with the left over. I don't think principle has a whole lot to do with it. Someone would have to explain that one to me. It's pretty damned popular to attack Trump, so if anything, from what I've seen, he's going with the flow.

"I don't like you so . . . IMPEACH!" is a pretty lousy principle to stand with democrats on.

----------


## Krugminator2

> A If he continues down the path of supporting the police state tactics used on Trump, I'll be supporting his primary challenger.


I can never remotely understand this line of thinking. Justin Amash is probably one of five most liberty minded congressmen of the last 100 years.  The odds of replacing him with someone better are 0.000000000000000000%.  I don't support impeachment but it is a very reasonable position. Judge Napolitano seems to think Trump is on thin ice.

----------


## susano

> The other side will never impeach for unauthorized killing because they plan on expanding it quite a bit more .


Not to mention they were all down with the destruction of Syria and Libya. Mass murder is okay by libtards as long they're the one's in control. Other George W Bush (who is a globalist lib, AFAIC), what big wars haven't been started by libs?

----------


## susano

> Here is the real reason that shill Amash has had stage 5 TDS for years now:
> 
> 
> 
> Amash is just another politician in it for himself and owned by China. At least be honest and admit you oppose Trump because the tariffs will hurt your family business instead of appeasing the libtard morons by promoting the debunked collusion and obstruction hoax. 
> 
> https://theconservativetreehouse.com...ests-in-china/


Wow. His lying about it is bad. It may be not be as personal as his business but that plus the broader Libertarian POV of "free trade" (in actuality, neoliberal). He's also made it clear he sees nothing detrimental in trade deficits. 

I must say, this also the kind of thing Trump would lie about, too, but it shows Amash to be willing to do the same.

----------


## susano

> And yet he disregards his personal interests in favor of the good of his country.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Serious question:
> 
> What did Trump do, specifically, to "obstruct justice"?
> 
> Did he himself, or did he order evidence destroyed?
> 
> Did he order people to lie under oath?
> 
> Did he delete or erase digital evidence?
> ...


I'd still like to know...

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Amash isn't favoring the victim of a witch hunt.  He is of the opinion that the president attempted to obstruct a legal investigation. 
> 
> I haven't read the report, but the point remains that a guy who banned bump stocks and seems intent on going to war with Iran is being favored over a guy who has a 94% Constitutional voting record.


That's what should happen when the guy with the great voting record LIES about the guy who banned bump stocks and has a bad foreign policy (it is NOT clear that he is intent on going to war with Iran) and joins an treasonous coup attempt.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> I can never remotely understand this line of thinking. Justin Amash is probably one of five most liberty minded congressmen of the last 100 years.  The odds of replacing him with someone better are 0.000000000000000000%.  I don't support impeachment but it is a very reasonable position. Judge Napolitano seems to think Trump is on thin ice.


Judge Swamp is a bigger liar and TDS victim than Amash.

They are both participating in Treason.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Principle makes strange bedfellows.  Following principle doesn't give one the luxury of choosing allies.
> 
> That's why 99 44/100% of politicians avoid principles like the plague.


And Amash just Joined the 99 44/100%.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> I am so proud of Justin.


That is a point against him.




> I can't wait to see the names our resident alt-right trolls will call Ron Paul after he weighs in on this.


Ron will either not comment or disagree with Amash.

----------


## susano

> Besides the anti-Zionist angle and Amash being Palestinian, his family's business being affected by the China tarrifs etc...
> 
> I think he is doing it to get press and *name recognition ahead of his announcement of a third party run for the LP in 2020*. 
> 
> Not a smart move to use the Mueller saga as a vehicle for that imho, but I think that is the most likely motivation.
> 
> By the way: 
> From a legal point of view, obstruction does NOT require an underlying crime, because obstruction is aimed at preventing the collection of evidence and therefore getting an indicment (H. Clintons deletion of 33000 emails qualifies for sure). The threshold of proof in criminal cases is very high ("beyond reasonable doubt") which is why prosecutors love process crimes like lying to them or obstruction. They are much easier to prove. It is BS and contrary to any common sense, but that is the legal theory behind it. 
> The Mueller report, however, is NOT claiming that they proved obstruction (beyond reasonable doubt). Instead, they are saying that they could not "exonerate" Trump. Exoneration is NOT a concept of criminal law. It would require proving a negative which is impossible. It also puts the principle of "inncocent until proven guilty" on its head. According to this principle, you are automatically deemed innocent once the prosecution closes the case without an indicment. The exoneration terminolgy used by the Mueller team is a bone thrown to Congress, so that they have a political football to toss arround.


I really learned what a crock of $#@! federal charges are when I watched the CNN documentary (shocker that they showed it) called, "Sue, the T-Rex" which exposed the feds using these bull$#@! charges to take down someone for political and power tripping reasons. Federal law is a racket.

While I do not know, I suspect that our founders never envisioned anything like this. I would guess that federal law and courts would have only been intended for disputes between the States.

----------


## acptulsa

> And Amash just Joined the 99 44/100%.


Oh?  So tell us.  If his principles didn't get him into this mess, what did?

Oh, yeah.  Admitting that someone could stand against Trump on principles is against your principles.  Except they aren't principles, are they?  It's just blind partisanship.

----------


## susano

> You mad bro?


Up against the wall commie scum!

----------


## angelatc

> That's what should happen when the guy with the great voting record LIES about the guy who banned bump stocks and has a bad foreign policy (it is NOT clear that he is intent on going to war with Iran) and joins an treasonous coup attempt.


Oh, stop being a drama queen.  Treasonous coup attempt?  That ridiculous.

----------


## angelatc

> Judge Swamp is a bigger liar and TDS victim than Amash.
> 
> They are both participating in Treason.


Treason is clearly defined in the Constitution, and this isn't it.  Your bunched-up panties are cutting off the circulation to your head.

----------


## acptulsa

> Treason is clearly defined in the Constitution, and this isn't it.  Your bunched-up panties are cutting off the circulation to your head.


That's not possible.

Clearly his brains aren't where you think they are.

----------


## susano

> One thing I like that Trump has done is made it easier for people who are out of options to try experimental medicines


Called bull$#@! on global warming and got us out of that idiotic Paris Climate Accord.
Got us out of the UN Small Arms treaty.
Got us out of the TPP. 
Has been relentless on trade deficits and working for more balanced and fair trade agreements. 
Criminal justice reform, giving people with absurd sentences second chances. 
Blew PC right out of the water. 
Has and is working hard persisting with stopping the insane overrunning of our southern border and phony asylum claims - so far blocked by commie judges.
Got rid of the  ACA insurance mandate.
Drove Hillary Satan Clinton insane. 
Got the violent Marxists out and exposing themselves, to their detriment.
Continually making an issue about freedom of speech and censorship which will lead to a bigger show down with with mega tech.
Got rid of net neutrality.
Put the world on notice that US is a sovereign nation who won't bow to international orgs.

Lots more and I know there are lists out there.

----------


## UWDude

> Oh, stop being a drama queen.  Treasonous coup attempt?  That ridiculous.


That's not hyperbole.  Making up a fake investigation accusing the duly elected president of the United States of being an agent of Russia, then trying to use that narrative AND THE FBI (knowingly ignoring that all evidence is baseless and well known to be faulty), to defeat him in the 2018 elections (which failed, but had they won.....), is treason.  Had they had their way, and impeached trump, or had a blue wave, and were able to get him imprisoned... ...they were hoping for a win, no doubt about it, so they could cover up this treachery.
It is high treason, and people must hang for it.

You don't get to use the Army to topple the president of the United States.  That is a coup.  That is treason.
Likewise, you do not get to use the FBI to topple the president of the United States.  That is also a coup. That is also treason.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Oh?  So tell us.  If his principles didn't get him into this mess, what did?
> 
> Oh, yeah.  Admitting that someone could stand against Trump on principles is against your principles.  Except they aren't principles, are they?  It's just blind partisanship.


His lie is totally unprincipled and based on his own business interests.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Treason is clearly defined in the Constitution, and this isn't it.  Your bunched-up panties are cutting off the circulation to your head.


Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in *adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.*




> That's not hyperbole.  Making up a fake investigation accusing the duly elected president of the United States of being an agent of Russia, then trying to use that narrative (knowingly ignoring that all evidence is baseless and well known to be faulty), to defeat him in the 2018 elections (which failed, but had they won.....), is treason.  Had they had their way, and impeached trump, or had a blue wave, and were able to get him imprisoned... ...they were hoping for a win, no doubt about it, so they could cover up this treachery.
> It is high treason, and people must hang for it.
> 
> You don't get to use the Army to topple the president of the United States.  That is a coup.
> Likewise, you do not get to use the FBI to topple the United States.  That is also a coup.


They conspired with foreign governments to overthrow the lawful government selected by the people with lies, that is "adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort".

----------


## enhanced_deficit

> Is Amash trying to lose his reelection?  I'm sure his constituents don't like what hes doing.



I hope he's not trying to sink massive investment of casino owner and respected neoconservative Sheldon Adelson in MAGA election at a very critical time in our government's functioning:

*Amash's presidential decision could spell trouble for Trump in Michigan*

----------


## Swordsmyth

> I hope he's not trying to sink massive investment of casino owner and respected neoconservative Sheldon Adelson in MAGA election at a very critical time in our government's functioning:
> 
> *Amash's presidential decision could spell trouble for Trump in Michigan*


*2 Kings
Chapter                                             14*8 Then  Amaziah sent messengers to Jehoash, the son of Jehoahaz son of Jehu,  king of Israel, saying, Come, let us look one another in the face.
9 And Jehoash the king of Israel sent to Amaziah king of Judah, saying, The thistle that _was_ in Lebanon sent to the cedar that _was_ in Lebanon, saying, Give thy daughter to my son to wife: and there passed by a wild beast that _was_ in Lebanon, and trode down the thistle.
10 Thou hast indeed smitten Edom, and thine heart hath lifted thee up: glory _of this_, and tarry at home: for why shouldest thou meddle to _thy_ hurt, that thou shouldest fall, _even_ thou, and Judah with thee?
11 But  Amaziah would not hear. Therefore Jehoash king of Israel went up; and  he and Amaziah king of Judah looked one another in the face at  Bethshemesh, which _belongeth_ to Judah.
12 And Judah was put to the worse before Israel; and they fled every man to their tents.
13 And  Jehoash king of Israel took Amaziah king of Judah, the son of Jehoash  the son of Ahaziah, at Bethshemesh, and came to Jerusalem, and brake  down the wall of Jerusalem from the gate of Ephraim unto the corner  gate, four hundred cubits.
14 And  he took all the gold and silver, and all the vessels that were found in  the house of the LORD, and in the treasures of the king's house, and  hostages, and returned to Samaria.

----------


## Swordsmyth

*China.*



Republican Senator and failed presidential candidate Mitt Romney  congratulated Justin Amash for endorsing the impeachment of President  Trump, speaking to CNN’s Jake Tapper on Sunday.
 Curiously, Romney expressed praise for Amash’s decision to call for  impeachment while declining to endorse it personally. He told Tapper  that he “had reached a different conclusion” than Amash had, leaving the  Michigan libertarian the only federal Republican legislator to take a  stance in support of removing Trump from office.
 Tapper presented Romney with a hilariously “softball-style”  interview on his segment on CNN, outright worshipping the Utah Senator  when he claimed that he was someone who “personally conducted himself  according to a certain set of moral and ethical principles throughout  his entire life.” He went on to goad Romney to critique the President  from a moral high ground.
 In reality, Romney made millions of dollars by destroying countless American jobs  during his tenure at Bain Capital. He was in charge of eliminating and  outsourcing jobs at American companies, sending them to China and India  where executives could utilize cheap labor.

More at: https://bigleaguepolitics.com/mitt-r...s-impeachment/

----------


## Schifference

Impeachment is political and will happen at the strategic time. They will drag Trump thru the mud. Why will anyone want to re-elect a president that is being impeached? We do not want to impeach him too soon. Get every piece of chit and pick up every stone and be ready to throw it at MAGA. The biggest smear campaign has yet to begin. I said a while back that I would walk away from it if I were Trump. What does he need this for? What does Thomas Massie need politics for? He is independently wealthy. Politics does not make Thomas's life easier. How hard would Thomas fight to get re-elected? Screw that chit. Fuch dat. Go live with your loving family in Kentucky and develop some other time saving concepts that make your life easier. Thomas Massie works for the people because the people wanted him to represent them. Does anyone seriously think that Biden, or Sanders, or Rand Paul would be a better president? What was Trumps agenda for being president? Was he trying to build name recognition or promote his image? Was he trying to become a wealthy businessman? Was he trying to help his daughter jump start a clothing or beauty product line? Imagine Jackie Kennedy or Michelle Obama or one of their adult daughters if they had one while first lady start a beauty product or clothing line. They would be on every show being acclaimed as an empowered woman with a fashion line that liberals would literally kill people waiting in line in front of them so they could get the last one.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> I said a while back that I would walk away from it if I were Trump. What does he need this for?


That is a very good question that I don't think gets asked enough. How does Trump benefit from being president? I think the simplest answer is probably that he sees long-term advantages or amelioration of existing disadvantages for his and his family's personal wealth as a result of leverage they will acquire or policies he can get changed (or stop from getting changed) through his tenure as president. To determine if another 4 years would be more advantageous requires getting into specifics. I don't know the answer to that.

----------


## Working Poor

I wonder what in the hell is really going on?

----------


## Schifference

> That is a very good question that I don't think gets asked enough. How does Trump benefit from being president? I think the simplest answer is probably that he sees long-term advantages or amelioration of existing disadvantages for his and his family's personal wealth as a result of leverage they will acquire or policies he can get changed (or stop from getting changed) through his tenure as president. To determine if another 4 years would be more advantageous requires getting into specifics. I don't know the answer to that.


Does every President or politician seek and or remain in said position for personal gain? Is Thomas Massie a politician to enhance his personal aspirations? Why did Ron or Rand Paul want to be in Congress, Senate or be POTUS? For personal gain? Why would someone assume that the candidate they like are a politician for selfless reasons but everyone else is for personal gain.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> Does every President or politician seek and or remain in said position for personal gain?


Not necessarily. But most have nefarious motives. And I can't imagine that Trump is motivated by any deeper ethical principles. Apart from his shallow America-first rhetoric, he doesn't even pretend to be. He's pretty open about his self-centeredness, don't you think? Certainly more than most politicians are, and I think for his supporters that openness is something they're usually attracted to about him.

Comparing him to the Pauls or Amash or Massie is kind of funny really. Don't you agree?

----------


## Schifference

> Not necessarily. But most have nefarious motives. And I can't imagine that Trump is motivated by any deeper ethical principles. Apart from his shallow America-first rhetoric, he doesn't even pretend to be. He's pretty open about his self-centeredness, don't you think? Certainly more than most politicians are, and I think for his supporters that openness is something they're usually attracted to about him.
> 
> Comparing him to the Pauls or Amash or Massie is kind of funny really. Don't you agree?


I cannot speak for any person's motives except my own. Didn't Ron keep taking donations even though he was not continuing his race? Did he not give back money that he should have? IDK. Did Ron promote economic crash for gain of personal wealth? Did Ron make millions of dollars promoting newsletters? IDK. Are Ron's intentions always pure? IDK. If there is a God only that entity would know or be able to judge. Often times our own perceptions are skewed and we don't even interpret our own actions realistically.

----------


## Todd

> Amash has TDS and is turning into the next Jeff Flake.


Yep.  Your a complete moron.  You can't even tell who is the enemy and who is the friend of liberty.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> I cannot speak for any person's motives except my own.


If the question you asked above, that I quoted in post 341, was a rhetorical question (which is what it looks like to me), then that implies that you do think you can speak for Trump's motives. Of course we can't have complete knowledge of another's invisible thoughts. But we're not entirely in the dark about them either.

----------


## nobody's_hero

> I'd still like to know...





> Serious question:
> 
> What did Trump do, specifically, to "obstruct justice"?
> 
> Did he himself, or did he order evidence destroyed?
> 
> Did he order people to lie under oath?
> 
> Did he delete or erase digital evidence?
> ...


People probably thought you were asking about Hillary. Seems to be a pretty accurate checklist for her.

----------


## acptulsa

> His lie is totally unprincipled and based on his own business interests.


How will this help Amash's business interests?  Are you old enough to remember how many *years* Clinton's impeachment took?  Do you have one shred of evidence that Pence would change one single tariff?

Tell.  Me.  How.  Get that knot out of your panties, restore circulation to that brain, and tell us all how a smart man like Justin Amash could possibly think for one second that doing this could benefit a company that manufactures in China.

This theory holds no water.  It is stupid.

----------


## Mr.NoSmile

And now Amash got himself another primary challenger- the first since Brian Ellis, this time in the form of State Rep. Jim Lower:




> The state’s congressional districts are set to be redrawn before 2020, making his reelection prospects difficult to gauge. The district currently covers Grand Rapids and its exurbs.
> 
> Lower announced his challenge to Amash in a release on Sunday.
> 
> “I am a Pro-Trump, Pro-Life, Pro-Jobs, Pro-2nd Amendment, Pro-Family Values Republican,” he said. “Justin Amash’s tweets yesterday calling for President Trump’s impeachment show how out of touch he is with the truth and how out of touch he is with people he represents.”
> 
> The state lawmaker, who became a county commissioner in 2011 at the age of 21, accused Amash of joining hands with “radical liberals” — naming Tlaib in particular — “to try and bring down our President.” On most issues, a chasm separates Amash from the liberal firebrand.
> 
> Lower said that his candidacy had been in the works for two months and that he had been planning to announce around July 4. He sped up his timetable in response to Amash’s tweets. In his announcement, he touted his working-class roots, saying he had put himself through college at Michigan State University and business school at Grand Valley State University by working full-time.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ary-challenge/

----------


## Superfluous Man

> And now Amash got himself another primary challenger- the first since Brian Ellis, this time in the form of State Rep. Jim Lower:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ary-challenge/


That sounds so much like the primary challengers they put up against Ron Paul.

----------


## familydog

> Has Rand read through the report?


He has. He has also stated that we need to move on with our lives and Trump did nothing wrong. Again, either Amash is correct or Rand is correct.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> He has. He has also stated that we need to move on with our lives and Trump did nothing wrong. Again, either Amash is correct or Rand is correct.


Or it's a matter of opinion and they're both reasonable.

----------


## familydog

> Or it's a matter of opinion and they're both reasonable.


Is law/ethics a matter of subjective preference?

----------


## specsaregood

> He has. He has also stated that we need to move on with our lives and Trump did nothing wrong. Again, either Amash is correct or Rand is correct.


I'm of the opinion that its all bull$#@!; BUT with that said, their views could be partly based on their different roles.   The House (Amash) role is to vote on impeachment, the Senates role is to vote on removal from office for impeachment.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> Is law/ethics a matter of subjective preference?


No. But political expediency is.

----------


## familydog

> No. But political expediency is.


Which is the political opportunist?

----------


## familydog

> I'm of the opinion that its all bull$#@!; BUT with that said, their views could be partly based on their different roles.   The House (Amash) role is to vote on impeachment, the Senates role is to vote on removal from office for impeachment.


True. However, they are looking at the same evidence and reaching polar opposite conclusions. Something is amiss.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> Which is the political opportunist?


You're reading things into my words that you will notice I never said.

----------


## familydog

> You're reading things into my words that you will notice I never said.


Perhaps precise language is needed on your part.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> Perhaps precise language is needed on your part.


I have used precise language to say what I mean. You will notice that you have now more than once replied to me implying that I said different things than what I precisely said. It's actually you who took my precision and muddled it with reinterpretations of your own.

For example, I never once said anything about law or ethics being matters of opinion, nor that anyone was a political opportunist.

----------


## familydog

> I have used precise language to say what I mean. You will notice that you have now more than once replied to me implying that I said different things than what I precisely said. It's actually you who took my precision and muddled it with reinterpretations of your own.
> 
> For example, I never once said anything about law or ethics being matters of opinion, nor that anyone was a political opportunist.


Don't fog me, bro.

----------


## devil21

> Trump has endorsed candidates who've won.


Of course some won.  I was being hyperbolic.  But also when you dig into the endorsements you see that the win total was around 50% and his endorsements were in "safe" R races.  So looking at it from a statistical perspective, only about half of his endorsements won and that's in races they probably should have won.  Trump doesn't endorse in primaries, any way, from what I can find on the topic, so the notion that he would endorse a primary opponent of Amash's seems unrealistic.  




> There is no such crime as "collusion" and Amash is alleging obstruction on a two year + deep state operation and "investigation" of of said non crime (fishing expedition) in which the corrupt conspirators tried to frame the president and numerous others. 
> 
> _Lavrentiy Beria, the most ruthless and longest-serving secret police chief in Joseph Stalin’s reign of terror in Russia and Eastern Europe, bragged that he could prove criminal conduct on anyone, even the innocent.
> 
> “Show me the man and I’ll show you the crime” was Beria’s infamous boast. He served as deputy premier from 1941 until Stalin’s death in 1953, 
> 
> Beria targeted “the man” first, then proceeded to find or fabricate a crime. Beria’s modus operandi was to presume the man guilty, and fill in the blanks later. By contrast, under the United States Constitution, there’s a presumption of innocence that emanates from the 5th, 6th, and 14th Amendments, as set forth in Coffin vs. U.S. (1895).
> 
> Unlike Beria’s paradigm, U.S. prosecutions start with the discovery of a crime. Then there’s an investigation to find or confirm the identity of the perpetrator and collect evidence to prove his or her guilt._
> ...


The truly hilarious part of all this is that Trump has very, very well documented connections with Russian oligarchs, such as Oleg Deripaska.  Either that's the redacted content or was omitted entirely from the report, since no one ever mentions it (I haven't read the report and I'm ok admitting that).  If that info was omitted or censored then the _real basis_ for a collusion investigation is definitely there but is being suppressed.  It's most certainly not factual to claim that Trump has no connections with Russians that _could_ have funded giant political operations on his behalf.  I don't know and I think it's a big intentional "reality tv" distraction but Trump's connections with Russians can't be denied.  I'm happy to provide detailed links if you wish.

----------


## EBounding



----------


## ATruepatriot

> I had not really given that much thought .


I see what he sees also. Actually it used to be an admitted and very discussed goal and ambition at the Daily Paul back when anarchists were more honest.

----------


## oyarde

>

----------


## susano

> That is exactly what it is- the Party immediately seeks to destroy anyone who questions the narrative.


The false and dominant narrative is muh Russia-Putler robbed Hillary Satan Clinton of what belonged to her fin favor of Orange Man who payed hookers to pee on a mattress. Looks like Amash is good with the narrative created by these deep state globalists.

----------


## susano

> Normally they put on a good front at being friendly to liberty lovers. But if said liberty lover dares to criticize Trump, the facade is the first to go. Making in roads with libertarians is a secondary goal compared to defending Trump.


Oh, yes, we oppose a Soviet style, Kafakaesque inquisition because Trump, not right v wrong. If they'd done this to Ron Paul we would have just rolled with it.

----------


## acptulsa

> The false and dominant narrative is muh Russia-Putler robbed Hillary Satan Clinton of what belonged to her fin favor of Orange Man who payed hookers to pee on a mattress. Looks like Amash is good with the narrative created by these deep state globalists.


I'm sorry your Right Wing Trump Derangement Syndrome is causing you such distress.




> Oh, yes, we oppose a Soviet style, Kafakaesque inquisition because Trump, not right v wrong. If they'd done this to Ron Paul we would have just rolled with it.


Ron Paul would have rolled with it.  He'd have told them to bring it.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> Oh, yes, we oppose a Soviet style, Kafakaesque inquisition because Trump, not right v wrong. If they'd done this to Ron Paul we would have just rolled with it.


There would have been demonstrations and snowballs thrown if it had been RP. lol

----------


## Swordsmyth

> I'm sorry your Right Wing Trump Derangement Syndrome is causing you such distress.


So you support government censorship of political speech and now unlimited search and seizure for Congress and we are the ones suffering from derangement?






> Ron Paul would have rolled with it.  He'd have told them to bring it.


And he would have fought them every step of the way, just like Trump.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Are you saying Amash had anything to do with that?  So far as I can tell, he didn't lift a finger until after he got a copy of this report.  Prove me wrong.
> 
> Why is it the people who piss and moan the most about witch hunts always grab the torches and lead the witch hunts?


He saw a treasonous conspiracy in progress and eagerly jumped on board.

----------


## susano

> I was too when I backed Ron, and I backed Rand. But the main thing for me was the last chance survival of our Republic. The alternative with Hillary communism just had to be stopped with any and every tool available perfect or not. There was no other option, we were up against the wall principles be damned. I realized it was absolutely stupid to allow this to happen based on very unrealistic and impractical ideology. And know what? we are still in survival mode and this fact needs to be considered. We WILL be a communist nation if the left wins next election. Another delay just might give us time to find someone better and more principled before communism can be implemented. Count on it... If Trump loses we WILL become a communist state within 4 years of democrat control.


^^THIS and it will be full on Satanic with first graders being taught about anal sex and transgenderism, state mandated hormone treatments for gender confused and brainwashed children, Medicaid paid for "sex change" surgery, federal charges for saying mean $#@! about libtards, Isalmists, pussy hats and George Soros on the internet, free abortions for all, including in Catholic hospitals, Agenda 2030 fully implemented, 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th amendments done away with, glorifying of base instincts and acts vs. virtue and self restraint, all alpha males castrated and forced psychiatric detention for saying gender dysphoria is a mental disorder. And that's just part of their wish list.

----------


## acptulsa

> And he would have fought them every step of the way, just like Trump.


The things you don't know about Ron Paul would fill a library.  He'd have cooperated, just so they couldn't make any excuses for exonerating him.

Statesman style.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> The things you don't know about Ron Paul would fill a library.  He'd have cooperated, just so they couldn't make any excuses for exonerating him.
> 
> Statesman style.


LOL

Ron is a stickler for the Constitution and Trump has cooperated much more than he had too just so they couldn't make any excuses for exonerating him.

Statesman style.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> ^^THIS and it will be full on Satanic with first graders being taught about anal sex and transgenderism, state mandated hormone treatments for gender confused and brainwashed children, Medicaid paid for "sex change" surgery, federal charges for saying mean $#@! about libtards, Isalmists, pussy hats and George Soros on the internet, free abortions for all, including in Catholic hospitals, Agenda 2030 fully implemented, 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th amendments done away with, glorifying of base instincts and acts vs. virtue and self restraint, all alpha males castrated and forced psychiatric detention for saying gender dysphoria is a mental disorder. And that's just part of their wish list.


Trying to figure out how this truth is sooooooooooo hard to see? Because they are part of it...

----------


## acptulsa

> LOL
> 
> Ron is a stickler for the Constitution and Trump has cooperated much more than he had too just so they couldn't make any excuses for exonerating him.
> 
> Statesman style.


Boy do you change directions quick when you set out to spin things. 

So, he's cooperating fully and fighting tooth and nail.  Right.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Boy do you change directions quick when you set out to spin things. 
> 
> So, he's cooperating fully and fighting tooth and nail.  Right.


You just can't stop telling lies, can you?

I didn't say "fully", I said "more than he had too".

----------


## acptulsa

> You just can't stop telling lies, can you?
> 
> I didn't say "fully", I said "more than he had too".


This split hair doesn't make your two claims less contradictory.  Or any less toady-like.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> This split hair doesn't make your two claims less contradictory.  Or any less toady-like.


LOL

----------


## susano

> We won't see it in our lifetime, our Grandchildren or Great Grandchildren might see it. But in the meantime they will have to suffer through what we created. Does anyone really think that opening this door will actually be better than a Republic even if imperfect? To even think so is absolute insanity.


Many $#@!libs look to places like Scandinavia, imagining a nanny state Utopia, and their systems _did_ work for reasons that the free $#@! army could never acknowledge and that was their societies were homogeneous, i.e., all white with the same culture and values. Now that they've gone suicidal, especially Sweden, those social systems are under extreme pressure and can't survive - hence Norway paying the muzz to leave. Sweden is essentially destroyed, as planned, soon to be only read about in old issues of National Geographic.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> Many $#@!libs look to places like Scandinavia, imagining a nanny state Utopia, and their systems _did_ work for reasons that the free $#@! army could never acknowledge and that was their societies were homogeneous, i.e., all white with the same culture and values. Now that they've gone suicidal, especially Sweden, those social systems are under extreme pressure and can't survive - hence Norway paying the muzz to leave. Sweden is essentially destroyed, as planned, soon to be only read about in old issues of National Geographic.


Yep, they are regrouping and moving back to Capitalism before it is too late and they crash and burn.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Here's a detailed write-up
> https://www.lawfareblog.com/obstruct...eport-heat-map


Thanks.

That was exactly what I was looking for, +rep.

Now, I'm reading and parsing through it...based on a cursory read it does look like there was a number of attempts to "tamp down" investigations and testimony, which *is*, of course, obstruction.

That said, "obstruction" is one of those catch all crimes, like USC 1001 "lying to federal officials".

Technically, I committed "obstruction of justice" once, when I convinced a DA to drop reckless driving charges against me because of a faulty car modification.

Simply saying to the proper "official" that so and so should "back off" would be considered obstruction.

So, going forward...like I said...impeach him...go ahead...I'd be curious to see the reaction, if any.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Thanks.
> 
> That was exactly what I was looking for, +rep.
> 
> Now, I'm reading and parsing through it...based on a cursory read it does look like there was a number of attempts to "tamp down" investigations and testimony, which *is*, of course, obstruction.
> 
> That said, "obstruction" is one of those catch all crimes, like USC 1001 "lying to federal officials".
> 
> Technically, I committed "obstruction of justice" once, when I convinced a DA to drop reckless driving charges against me because of a faulty car modification.
> ...


You can't obstruct an illegal investigation and the President has authority over the DoJ.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> You can't obstruct an illegal investigation and the President has authority over the DoJ.


Who determined that it was illegal?

Based on what I'm reading, it doesn't appear that these instances of "obstruction" were instances of Trump acting in an official capacity as boss of the DoJ.

Don't get me wrong...I think "obstruction" is a bull$#@! crime, like USC 1001 is.

But I'm sick of the blab...if the Bolsheviks think they can get away with it, go for it.

Like I said...I'm very curious to see what reaction there would be, if any.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Who determined that it was illegal?


It's been illegal all along, it was based on fiction, entrapment and illegal spying.

----------


## Aratus

>

----------


## Todd

> While I don't think it was politically-wise to do what Justin did, I still respect him.  I don't agree with him on this, but I am going to wait and see if there is something I do not know.  In the meantime, while far, FAR, from perfect, I still generally support Trump's presidency.  Amash has indicated he was thinking about running for President on the Libertarian ticket.  I wonder if this might be about that and getting his name in the headlines.   Time will tell.
> 
> I'm not going to throw Justin under the bus.  He's been a wonderful Congressman.   We just disagree on this.




Absolutely THIS  ^.

----------


## devil21

> Devil has the same motivation as Amash, he does business with the ChiComs and he puts that before the good of his country. (if his goal isn't just to help China destroy America)


Hey genius, we all do business with the Chinese.  Or do you think the computer you're typing your bs on was made in Wisconsin?  Sad.  You appear unhinged when that's your reply to my posts indicating that Trump's connections with Russian oligarchs are widespread and well documented.  Since susano seems to think that Deripaska being a good Russian somehow negates anything I wrote about, here's a much more detailed summary of Trump's connections to Russian billionaires that could have provided basis for a real collusion investigation.  Not the fake investigation we've been presented.

part 1
http://www.conspiracyschool.com/blog...igarchs-part-i

part 2
http://www.conspiracyschool.com/blog...garchs-part-ii

There's others available at that site, also.  Rabbit hole is deep, son.

----------


## enhanced_deficit

Deputy AG Rosenstein read the report and did not find OoJ or any other  major offences.  He has great credibility, reputation and fitness to  serve. Based on Rosenstein's recommendation,  AG Barr and Rosentaien agreed on verdict and then Barr told Congress that  there was nothing major to see in full Mueller Report being kept secret.

So we should close this case  and Congressman Amash should also take back his statement on this issue.


Related

Republican lawmakers led by Meadows, chairman of the House Freedom Caucus one of President Trump’s top allies in Congress, have drafted eight articles of impeachment   against Rosenstein. The articles make a series of charges against   Rosenstein and question his credibility, reputation and fitness to   serve.
*Rosenstein defiant as impeachment talk rises*

----------


## Warrior_of_Freedom

None of these political cucks have a solution to Trump. Do they think Mike Pence is better? Do they think NANCY PELOSI is better?

----------


## devil21

> None of these political cucks have a solution to Trump. Do they think Mike Pence is better? Do they think NANCY PELOSI is better?


That's why the whole scam works so well.  THEY ALL SUCK AND THERE ARE NO GOOD OPTIONS ALLOWED.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> That's why the whole scam works so well.  THEY ALL SUCK AND THERE ARE NO GOOD OPTIONS ALLOWED.


Absolutely.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> None of these political cucks have a solution to Trump. Do they think Mike Pence is better? Do they think NANCY PELOSI is better?


Absolutely.

----------


## fcreature

> While I don't think it was politically-wise to do what Justin did, I still respect him.  I don't agree with him on this, but I am going to wait and see if there is something I do not know.  In the meantime, while far, FAR, from perfect, I still generally support Trump's presidency.  Amash has indicated he was thinking about running for President on the Libertarian ticket.  I wonder if this might be about that and getting his name in the headlines.   Time will tell.
> 
> I'm not going to throw Justin under the bus.  He's been a wonderful Congressman.   We just disagree on this.





> Aligning?  Collectivize much.  How about Amash just sees this differently and his assessment doesn't "Align" with yours.  Or even mine for that matter.  I don't agree with him, but I'm getting sick and tired of the baseless ALL OR NOTHING camps springing up.  Amash may be completely wrong on this, but that doesn't mean he isn't a friend of liberty.  Stick around and watch Swordsmyth flail the False Dichotomy narrative everytime the Trumpster gets questioned.


I'm still eagerly awaiting a libertarian on this forum to explain to me how another supposed libertarian in Congress can possibly support the police state tactics that Amash is supporting here... shredding the Fourth Amendment, illegal (and even legal too) spying, entrapment, falsified investigations, and then accusations of "obstruction" on a crime that did not occur.

Amash could have said Trump has taken actions that are impeachable on a million other items. But he chose this issue to call him out on, showing us all what a clown he truly is. He deserves to lose his office over these statements

Truly devastating considering how much respect I had for him.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> I'm still eagerly awaiting a libertarian on this forum to explain to me how another supposed libertarian in Congress can possibly support the police state tactics that Amash is supporting here... shredding the Fourth Amendment, illegal (and even legal too) spying, entrapment, falsified investigations, and then accusations of "obstruction" on a crime that did not occur.
> 
> Amash could have said Trump has taken actions that are impeachable on a million other items. But he chose this issue to call him out on, showing us all what a clown he truly is. He deserves to lose his office over these statements
> 
> Truly devastating considering how much respect I had for him.


I haven't followed all this closely. Can you provide the exact quotes of Amash supporting any of those things?

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> Holding Trump accountable if there were any true violations would be consistent if the (rule of law) principle were applied across the board. Does anyone remember Amash calls for investigation, sanction or even impeachment of Obama, Clinton or any other Democrats?
> 
> (Good luck with Google. They only return results from the past 24 hours. History is now a memory hole to them. Orwell would be proud. The Ministry of Truth.)


Examples?

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...em-accountable

----------


## Krugminator2

> I don't think this has been posted here yet? Maybe I missed it. I don't have a strong opinion on what is written below, I would hope he is mostly doing it for the Constitution tho..
> 
> 
> *Justin Amash’s Business Interests in China Underscore His Push to Impeach Trump*
> 
> It may be more than constitutionalism driving Amash’s dogged opposition to President Trump.
> 
> Published
>  1 day ago on
> ...



The guy who wrote this was a forum cancer here who used to $#@! on Rand constantly about nothing. This article is in keeping with that. He is a life failure loser who has to resort to writing trash like that.

----------


## juleswin

> The guy who wrote this was a forum cancer here who used to $#@! on Rand constantly about nothing. This article is in keeping with that. He is a life failure loser who has to resort to writing trash like that.


This makes sense seeing as Amash has never warmed up on Trump starting from when he showed up on the scene. Listening to these hacks one would think he turned on Trump after the tariffs were implemented. Also, if his stitck was financial then it would benefit him to be on the establishment side in just about everything not just this.

----------


## TheCount

> I made my case and you blew it off and now want to waste my time and make me repeat it. The fact is you now have no credibility in the debate because you are a pseudo Libertarian have no belief in Constitutional rights. I now know you are nothing but a full blown dishonest anti-constitutional Liberal masquerading as a Libertarian. Until you can debate productive truth without spin we are done.


The perfect essence of ad hominem, the last bastion of a person with no argument.



Lemme know when you figure out what part of the constitution or what constitutional rights are at issue here.

----------


## enhanced_deficit

> The guy who wrote this was a forum cancer here who used to $#@! on Rand constantly about nothing. This article is in keeping with that. He is a life failure loser who has to resort to writing trash like that.





> It may be more than constitutionalism driving Amash’s dogged opposition to President Trump.
> 
> Published
> 1 day ago on
> May 19, 2019
> By
> *Shane Trejo*


May need to exercise some skepticism when evaluating claims made by this author. 
Does not necessarily means all his arguments and claims should be  discredited as biased. There are only two Palestinians in US Congress  and it is bit peculair that he found time to 'expose' both based on  quick lookup but  did not find time to expose any of the many  pro-Netanyahu/pro-Likud pro-wars folks in Congress, administration or  any of the powerful lobbies that generally buy fund our  politicians.

*Rashida Tlaib’s Social Media Account Traffics in Anti-Semitic Hate*

 
   Published
 2 months ago on
Mar 9, 2019  
By
*Shane Trejo* 

*Jewish Consultant Attempts to Whitewash Ilhan Omar's Anti-Semitic Reputation*
qwiket.com
Apr 4, 2019 
*Shane Trejo* 




> *Shane Trejo: Libertarian Party Vice Chair Releases Controversial Anti-Military Manifesto*
> 
> If you were tricked by military recruiters, help prevent the same thing   from happening to others. Share your experiences, and speak out  boldly,”  Vohra said in a Facebook post that immediately generated a  polarizing  reaction with most of the feedback being resoundingly  negative.
> 
> 228 Replies
> 
>               Thomas L. Knapp May 12, 2017 at 06:29                                    
> 
>                      I really, really hate playing the “as a veteran”  card,  but in this case it seems applicable. As a veteran — US Marine  Corps,  infantry, non-commissioned officer,  Desert Storm, honorably  discharged —  I say that Mr. Vohra is 100%,  completely and without  question, right  in the thrust of his comments.
> ...


https://independentpoliticalreport.c...ary-manifesto/

----------


## fcreature

> I haven't followed all this closely. Can you provide the exact quotes of Amash supporting any of those things?





> “Mueller’s report identifies multiple examples of conduct satisfying all the elements of obstruction of justice, and undoubtedly any person who is not the president of the United States would be indicted based on such evidence”


https://twitter.com/justinamash/stat...31623938183168

Given his position on obstruction and how strong a champion of individual rights and small government Amash supposedly is, I'd like to know why he isn't equally as outspoken (has he even said _anything_...?) about Trump's fourth amendment rights being trampled upon? Weird.

----------


## RonZeplin

> None of these political cucks have a solution to Trump. Do they think Mike Pence is better? Do they think NANCY PELOSI is better?


I'm not a cuck Trumpkin, but I've got one possible solution....



Justin Amash & Austin Petersen - Libertarian Party 2020. 

Dump Trump!  Dump the D&R party global crime syndicate

----------


## enhanced_deficit

*Opinion: Both Palestinian Congress members have called for MAGA impeachment*

----------


## susano

> If we ever get to the point that the crazies are running the show and the sane people are locked up, our civilization will be over.
> 
> Thankfully my personal opinion is that God is going to intervene, when it is clearly shown that people are totally incapable of ruling themselves, basically saying "you had your shot at free will and governance.....now it's my turn"


While I see this as, ultimately, a spiritual battle, I don't about God because free will. I'm pretty sure Kek has this one, though.

----------


## Champ

> *Opinion: Both Palestinian Congress members have called for MAGA impeachment*


So this could possibly have more to do with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict than the supposed Chinese business ties that he has.  There is a post towards the beginning of this thread that alludes to that.  This fits more, because Amash has been calling for impeachment or at the very least, thorough oversight into Trump long before the tariff battles have increased in intensity and at least a full 2 years before the Mueller report was completed.

----------


## oyarde

> The guy who wrote this was a forum cancer here who used to $#@! on Rand constantly about nothing. This article is in keeping with that. He is a life failure loser who has to resort to writing trash like that.


I should know this shane guy ?

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Were you in a position of authority over that DA?


That would put him in a better position, Trump is the head of the Executive Branch and all its departments, he may exercise "prosecutorial discretion".

----------


## Swordsmyth

> While I see this as, ultimately, a spiritual battle, I don't about God because free will. I'm pretty sure Kek has this one, though.


He is right about GOD eventually: "Thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will Be Done On Earth As It Is In Heaven"

----------


## susano

> Aligning?  Collectivize much.  How about Amash just sees this differently and his assessment doesn't "Align" with yours.  Or even mine for that matter.  I don't agree with him, but I'm getting sick and tired of the baseless ALL OR NOTHING camps springing up.  Amash may be completely wrong on this, but that doesn't mean he isn't a friend of liberty.  Stick around and watch Swordsmyth flail the False Dichotomy narrative everytime the Trumpster gets questioned. 
> 
> he moron label is apropos and still stands.


We know that the FBI, CIA, DoJ, with assistance of foreign nationals, set people up to frame Trump and those around him. They knowingly used false information to obtain FISA warrants. Americans were unmasked in communications, hundreds of times, illegitimately, without warrants, hundreds of times.  This is no different from a SWAT team breaking into the home of an innocent person who resists and that innocent person being charged with obstruction and resisting arrest for defending their innocence. I suppose Amash would think that would be okay, too. 

I'm not collectivizing. Amash has chosen to join the dogpile by corrupt bad actors who tried to frame people because he hates Trump.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> This makes sense seeing as Amash has never warmed up on Trump starting from when he showed up on the scene. Listening to these hacks one would think he turned on Trump after the tariffs were implemented. Also, if his stitck was financial then it would benefit him to be on the establishment side in just about everything not just this.


Trump promised the tariffs all along but I am willing to buy that Amash is putting loyalty to his Palestinian cousins above the truth and his country just like AIPAC puts Israel first.

----------


## susano

> Hey genius, we all do business with the Chinese.  Or do you think the computer you're typing your bs on was made in Wisconsin?  Sad.  You appear unhinged when that's your reply to my posts indicating that Trump's connections with Russian oligarchs are widespread and well documented.  Since susano seems to think that Deripaska being a good Russian somehow negates anything I wrote about, here's a much more detailed summary of Trump's connections to Russian billionaires that could have provided basis for a real collusion investigation.  Not the fake investigation we've been presented.
> 
> part 1
> http://www.conspiracyschool.com/blog...igarchs-part-i
> 
> part 2
> http://www.conspiracyschool.com/blog...garchs-part-ii
> 
> There's others available at that site, also.  Rabbit hole is deep, son.


Whether he is a "good Russian" or a sleazeball, there is nothing illegal about knowing, talking to or dealing with a Russian, anymore than  there would be if someone were from China. I don't have a bug up my ass about Russia, like you do.

----------


## susano

> Trump promised the tariffs all along but I am willing to buy that Amash is putting loyalty to his Palestinian cousins above the truth and his country just like AIPAC puts Israel first.


There's so much not to like about Trump but I would suspect that's a sticking point for Amash and that he takes it personally.

_The son of a Palestinian refugee father and a Syrian immigrant mother, Amash said both of his parents would have been banned from the U.S. under Trump's travel ban that he has deemed "unlawful."_ 

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/nat...414777323.html

----------


## enhanced_deficit

> Trump promised the tariffs all along but I  am willing to buy that Amash is putting loyalty to his Palestinian  cousins above the truth and his country just like AIPAC puts Israel  first.


Using similar logic, MAGA appointed AG Bill Barr / Deputy AG Rosenstein have Israeli* heritage ( using MAGA's 'Mexican Judge' heritagometer  ), are you going to accept as 'facts' claims that MAGA's  pro-Israel annoucements regarding Golan Heights few days before Mueller  Report release  were designed to give them incentive to put 'loyalty to  their jewish cousins' above loyalty to US and thus ignore Mueller  recommendation about obstruction of justice charges that could risk  continuation of "most pro Israel Presidency ever" ?

Would  you apply similar loyalty test to MAGA's Israeli* son-in-law in charge  of various US taxpayers funded projects in mideast, US dealings with Saudi, Israel-Palestine, Qatar, Iran, Turkey?
  What about MAGA's top funder Adelson, do you see any loyalty  influences on MAGA's foreign policy because , you know, 'follow the money'?

Lastly, "China" is no longer the main reason for this as was being claimed by yourself and few others until now?  







> So this could possibly have more to do with the  Israeli/Palestinian conflict than the supposed Chinese business ties  that he has.  There is a post towards the beginning of this thread that  alludes to that.  This fits more, because Amash has been calling for  impeachment or at the very least, thorough oversight into Trump long  before the tariff battles have increased in intensity and at least a  full 2 years before the Mueller report was completed.


That  was just speculative opinion and probably exaggerated to  demonstrate a point,  it also shows how easily narrative just being  pushed until today seems weak suddenly. 
Humans have natural biases but it is  possible that bias is limited to just not giving benefit of the doubt or  no bias at all as we have not seen full Mueller report.

It  is also possible that latest polls showing danger of Dems defeating   MAGA in 2020 is playing a factor and some Republicans are encouraging  explorration of alternatives as a contingecy to avoid prspects of a Dem taking White House in 2020.

*PRAGMATISM 2020 
*Risk of  even a glass of water with "D" on it beating GOP-Adelson's  current leader in 2020 has gone up as latest polls are showing, it would be prudent for  GOP/Libertarians to explore backup alternatives to avoid seeing a left  wing neocon like Biden taking charge of WH. 
Call it realistic if you must, but optimism without realism leads to unpleasant surprises often.
MAGA DANGER: Rural Iowans ponder Trump alternatives... ;  Headwinds for reelection are severe


It  is also possible that secretive war mongering in mideast has  increased risk of US getting pushed into another major war in mideast if  stayed on current course and this is meant as a wakeup call for GOP. Many people  still have fresh memory of how badly GOP and its all knowing  cheerleaders had miscalculated dynamics and costs of the blunder that  GOP-neocons led Iraq war has been.

Iraq/Afghanistan wars disabled 624,000 US troops , Divorces  up 42%, Foreclosures up 217%*


*
Or this could be 100% purely based on merits with complete disregard to any other factors.


But the 'China' argument being pushed by  some supporters of GOP-Adelson seems very weak now that the motives  possibilities box has been sufficutently muddied up. From what is known  at this point, JA seems far more credible and principled than leadership  of GOP-Adelson including Bolton and anti-nepotism affiliates in the  White House.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Using similar logic, MAGA appointed AG Bill Barr / Deputy AG Rosenstein have Israeli* heritage ( using MAGA's 'Mexican Judge' heritagometer  ), are you going to accept as 'facts' claims that MAGA's  pro-Israel annoucements regarding Golan Heights few days before Mueller  Report release  were designed to give them incentive to put 'loyalty to  their jewish cousins' above loyalty to US and thus ignore Mueller  recommendation about obstruction of justice charges that could risk  continuation of "most pro Israel Presidency ever" ?
> 
> Would  you apply similar loyalty test to MAGA's Israeli* son-in-law in charge  of various US taxpayers funded projects in mideast, US dealings with Saudi, Israel-Palestine, Qatar, Iran, Turkey?
>   What about MAGA's top funder Adelson, do you see any loyalty  influences on MAGA's foreign policy because , you know, 'follow the money'?
> 
> Lastly, "China" is no longer the main reason for this as was being claimed by yourself and few others until now?  
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I still buy the China argument too, it is possible for him to have more than one motive.

----------


## yinzer38

> Trump promised the tariffs all along but I am willing to buy that Amash is putting loyalty to his Palestinian cousins above the truth and his country just like AIPAC puts Israel first.


Wow, this is such an ugly statement.

You're willing to accuse the most libertarian member of the House of treason based on his race?

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Wow, this is such an ugly statement.
> 
> You're willing to accuse the most libertarian member of the House of treason based on his race?


He is joining a treasonous conspiracy, that is a fact, I'm open to suggestions on his motives but we have at least two good ones so far.

----------


## axiomata

> Wow, this is such an ugly statement.
> 
> You're willing to accuse the most libertarian member of the House of treason based on his race?


My Amash conspiracy is that he did this to out the collectivist Trump trolls on RPF.

----------


## enhanced_deficit

> My Amash conspiracy is that he did this to out the collectivist Trump trolls on RPF.


Could be LOL

Have seen this t-factor come up lately in discussions here.

----------


## TER

> My Amash conspiracy is that he did this to out the collectivist Trump trolls on RPF.





> Could be LOL
> 
> Have seen this t-factor come up lately in discussions here.


LOL Almost as funny as a Hillary presidency!

I guess if you don’t agree that Trump should be impeached, then you are very possibly a collectivist Trump troll.  

I wonder where Ron and Rand stand on this issue, being this is RPF.

----------


## enhanced_deficit

> LOL Almost as funny as a Hillary presidency!
> 
> I guess if you don’t agree that Trump should be impeached, then you are very possibly a collectivist Trump troll.


Or Bush cabal ( the original Fake conservatives + ZOA Neocons marriage )

If you reread context of post you responded to, it's about MAGA's 'Mexican Judge' bias type collectivist assertion related to heritage and not about any difference of opinion. 

But  such theory is being adopted very selectively by a few folks, on Palestinian vs Israeli heritage attitudes.

----------


## TER

> Or Bush cabal ( the original Fake conservatives + ZOA Neocons marriage )


Oh, so if you don’t agree with proceeding towards impeachment, than you are either a collectivist Trump troll or with the Bush cabal.  








> If you reread context of post you responded to, it's about MAGA's 'Mexican Judge' bias type collectivist assertion related to heritage and not about any difference of opinion. 
> 
> But  such theory is being adopted very selectively by a few folks, on Palestinian vs Israeli heritage attitudes.


Your anti-Zionist zeal is clouding your judgment.  Impeaching Trump does not put Amash into the White House.  It puts Joe Biden in the White House.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> LOL Almost as funny as a Hillary presidency!
> 
> I guess if you don’t agree that Trump should be impeached, then you are very possibly a collectivist Trump troll.  
> 
> I wonder where Ron and Rand stand on this issue, being this is RPF.


It seems that they are "collectivist Trump trolls".

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Oh, so if you don’t agree with proceeding towards impeachment, than you are either a collectivist Trump troll or with the Bush cabal.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your anti-Zionist zeal is clouding your judgment.  Impeaching Trump does not put Amash into the White House.  It puts Joe Biden in the White House.


His paycheck is clouding his judgement.

----------


## Cap

Let's bump this again, to give the shylls some fits.

----------


## PAF

> Let's bump this again, to give the shylls some fits.


I'm on board ;-)

For the record, I do not care if trump is impeached or not. But to call for Justin's oust here on this forum speaks more than volumes.

----------


## phill4paul

> I'm on board ;-)
> 
> For the record, I do not care if trump is impeached or not. But to call for Justin's oust here on this forum speaks more than volumes.


   So, had Ron Paul won the presidency, and the Deep State and it's usual actors tried to oust him with phony Russian collusion investigations, you would be all on board with that?

----------


## Cap

Justin is cut from the same cloth that Dr. Paul is cut from, he is a close confidant of the good doctor and right now he is one of the very few left in D.C. that has any integrity. One thing is for certain, if Justin Amash says that there are grounds for impeachment, you can bet your ass there is something there.

----------


## PAF

> So, had Ron Paul won the presidency, and the Deep State and it's usual actors tried to oust him with phony Russian collusion investigations, you would be all on board with that?


The difference is Ron Paul is always up front and honest and I know where he stands. He would talk to the American people and explain his positions, like he and Justin always do.

trump is just a sit-in with no value, so I do not care either way. Oust trump, another substitute takes his place to placate the base, until the country is ready to elect another "democrat" - little/no difference that would make.

----------


## Cap

> The difference is Ron Paul is always up front and honest and I know where he stands. He would talk to the American people and explain his positions, like he and Justin always do.
> 
> *trump is just a sit-in with no value*, so I do not care either way. Oust trump, another substitute takes his place to placate the base, until the country is ready to elect another "democrat" - little/no difference that would make.


 I would add a descriptor of being an empty shell of a man with sociopath tells, who is in love with himself.

----------


## phill4paul

> The difference is Ron Paul is always up front and honest and I know where he stands. He would talk to the American people and explain his positions, like he and Justin always do.
> 
> trump is just a sit-in with no value, so I do not care either way. Oust trump, another substitute takes his place to placate the base, until the country is ready to elect another "democrat" - little/no difference that would make.


  Exactly what I thought. Just needed confirmation. Just another case of Orange Man Bad. It is not about the process by which the Deep State is acting and their attempt at a silent coup, it is about the man it is directed at.

----------


## Cap



----------


## PAF

> Exactly what I thought. Just needed confirmation. Just another case of Orange Man Bad. It is not about the process by which the Deep State is acting and their attempt at a silent coup, it is about the man it is directed at.


Oh, I see. You forgot to review why I do not line up with trump and the people he hires, such as newly nominated Barbara Barrett, Banker, CFR, MIC, UN, and the Women's Economic Empowerment Working Group.


How come you are so against me? I did not do any of those things. All I want to do is bring liberty, freedom and economic prosperity back on the table ;-)

Here ya go:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...-On-The-Record

----------


## devil21

> So, had Ron Paul won the presidency, and the Deep State and it's usual actors tried to oust him with phony Russian collusion investigations, you would be all on board with that?


If Ron had the miles long history of involvement with Russian billionaires that Trump has then it would at least be worth looking into to see if there's any "there" there.  Since that doesn't seem to apply to Ron, the comparison is apples and oranges.  No one seems to want to acknowledge the very detailed, well researched and source-documented links I posted earlier in the thread.  I maintain that yes, the "investigation" is phony but not because it's completely without basis.  It's phony because it's a pack of red herrings that avoid the real justification for such an investigation.

----------


## phill4paul

> If Ron had the miles long history of involvement with Russian billionaires that Trump has then it would at least be worth looking into to see if there's any "there" there.  Since that doesn't seem to apply to Ron, the comparison is apples and oranges.  No one seems to want to acknowledge the very detailed, well researched and source-documented links I posted earlier in the thread.  I maintain that yes, the "investigation" is phony but not because it's completely without basis.  It's phony because it's a pack of red herrings that avoid the real justification for such an investigation.


  There was no there "there." Period. End of statement. It was all Deep State lies. I'm sure some Neo-Nazi ex-con could have, for a reduced sentence or price, alledge that Ron had ties to the white supremacy movement. There were his "racist newsletters" after all. Wouldn't matter if it were true. Just that it could be used throughout his entire presidency. So, no, apples to apples and orange to oranges.

----------


## KEEF

> 


LOL +1 rep

----------


## susano

> If Ron had the miles long history of involvement with Russian billionaires that Trump has then it would at least be worth looking into to see if there's any "there" there.  Since that doesn't seem to apply to Ron, the comparison is apples and oranges.  No one seems to want to acknowledge the very detailed, well researched and source-documented links I posted earlier in the thread.  I maintain that yes, the "investigation" is phony but not because it's completely without basis.  It's phony because it's a pack of red herrings that avoid the real justification for such an investigation.

----------


## specsaregood

> One thing is for certain, if Justin Amash says that there are grounds for impeachment, you can bet your ass there is something there.


Amash says there are grounds for impeachment for no crime, just "dishonorable conduct". That's a pretty low subjective bar.  Hell, the main thing I like about trump is that he makes a mockery of the whole political process.   everybody has done something dishonorable at some point.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Let's bump this again, to give the shylls some fits.


LOL

Go ahead and keep reminding everyone how stupid Amash is being.

You do know that this helps give the Neocons leverage to push Trump into war, right?

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Amash says there are grounds for impeachment for no crime, just "dishonorable conduct". That's a pretty low subjective bar.  Hell, the main thing I like about trump is that he makes a mockery of the whole political process.   everybody has done something dishonorable at some point.


Why did they say "HIGH crimes" if "Idon't like what you did" qualifies?

----------


## UWDude

> If Ron had the miles long history of involvement with Russian billionaires t hat Trump has .


dude is a true blue believer Trump is an agent of Putin.

XD   XD  

"miles long history"  

XD  XD

----------


## Swordsmyth

> 





> LOL +1 rep

----------


## devil21

> There was no there "there." Period. End of statement. It was all Deep State lies. I'm sure some Neo-Nazi ex-con could have, for a reduced sentence or price, alledge that Ron had ties to the white supremacy movement. There were his "racist newsletters" after all. Wouldn't matter if it were true. Just that it could be used throughout his entire presidency. So, no, apples to apples and orange to oranges.





> 





> dude is a true blue believer Trump is an agent of Putin.
> 
> XD   XD  
> 
> "miles long history"  
> 
> XD  XD



None of you responded to what is detailed in the links I posted.  I assume you didn't even read them.  It's odd when detailed and exhaustively sourced evidence is presented and it is completely dismissed with a simple "nuh uh!", a meme and a nothing post.  Kinda shilly, actually.

----------


## UWDude

> None of you responded to what is detailed in the links I posted.  I assume you didn't even read them.  It's odd when detailed and exhaustively sourced evidence is presented and it is completely dismissed with a simple "nuh uh!", a meme and a nothing post.  Kinda shilly, actually.


I don't look at any links you post.  That ended a long time ago.  So you assumed right.
You can't ridicule me into reading your stupid links.  Your links and opinions mean ZERO to me.

Trump is a billionaire, he has millionaire and billionaire friends all over the world.

Not to mention his foreign policy has still been incredibly hostile towards Russia.

----------


## UWDude

> I would add a descriptor of being an empty shell of a man with sociopath tells, who is in love with himself.


Hatred is a mirror reflex caused by casting your own dispensations and intentions onto another person.

----------


## devil21

> I don't look at any links you post.  That ended a long time ago.  So you assumed right.
> You can't ridicule me into reading your stupid links.  Your links and opinions mean ZERO to me.
> 
> Trump is a billionaire, he has millionaire and billionaire friends all over the world.
> 
> Not to mention his foreign policy has still been incredibly hostile towards Russia.


Well, at least you admit you refuse to even inspect evidence that is counter to whatever your agenda is, even if it is well sourced, exhaustive and compelling.  Now that we know that you are, at best, unreasonable and downright brainwashed, or at worst, a shill pushing an agenda, we can all save some time and dismiss your thoughts going forward as the ramblings of an ignoramus or a shill.

----------


## UWDude

> Well, at least you admit you refuse to even inspect evidence that is counter to whatever your agenda is, even if it is well sourced, exhaustive and compelling.  Now that we know that you are, at best, unreasonable and downright brainwashed, or at worst, a shill pushing an agenda, we can all save some time and dismiss your thoughts going forward as the ramblings of an ignoramus or a shill.


Are you farting out your mouth again?

Oh you want me to smell it?

I already tried that dozens of times.

Stinks like $#@! every time.

----------


## susano

> None of you responded to what is detailed in the links I posted.  I assume you didn't even read them.  It's odd when detailed and exhaustively sourced evidence is presented and it is completely dismissed with a simple "nuh uh!", a meme and a nothing post.  Kinda shilly, actually.


We've been at this (muh Russia) over two years. A few of of us have also followed the whole Russian oligarch issue since the US engineered coup in Ukraine. You've got fvck all, buddy. No Trump crimes and no crimes in knowing or associating with Russians. You're just desperate. Mueller Time was a bust and the only hope is continuing smear campaigns and never ending, Beria style, harassment and investigations. I swear to God, it's just like Kafka's The Trial.

Having spent some years posting on issue concerning Russia and encountering every type of anti Russia paid poster and troll, foreign and domestic, they usually fall into some limited categories:

CIA puppet Ukrops & UkieNazis (not fake Nazis)
NATO/GCHQ/US and other foreign intel keyboard warriors 
LGBTQ advocates
Sharia Blue and other leftist shills
Trotskyites/commies
Neocons
Hasbara (Israeli or otherwise)

I deduce that you fall into one of more of these enemy camps.

----------


## angelatc

> I'm on board ;-)
> 
> For the record, I do not care if trump is impeached or not. But to call for Justin's oust here on this forum speaks more than volumes.


THIS!

----------


## susano



----------


## susano

Unless someone better comes along, I will still vote for Amash but I'll take a close look at his primary challengers. His excuses on this impeachment issue are bull$#@! but pros and cons must be weighed. I don't worship him or any other politician, including Trump. Nothing is partisan, it's all about beating back the Marxists. I'll always pick okay versus Satan.

----------


## devil21

There's a few accounts that are trying a bit too hard to deflect and it shows.  Looks like we have some shill ops underway on RPF.  Maybe one day you fellas will graduate past meme school...

----------


## TER

> I'm on board ;-)
> 
> For the record, I do not care if trump is impeached or not. But to call for Justin's oust here on this forum speaks more than volumes.


I dont think anyone should be calling for Justins oust. Has anyone said such a thing?

But I think that you should care if trump is impeached because the results would most likely be the Marxist libs gaining power.

----------


## KEEF

> 


Take a read from Rep. Amash’s explanation as to why he said what he said.
https://twitter.com/justinamash/stat...742256640?s=21

----------


## nikcers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OPcMnyPCNY

----------


## Swordsmyth

> What's with you, lately? Questioning some of Trump's actions on this whole mess, is NOT siding with the Clintons.
> 
> None of us believe the Russian BS- but that doesn't mean that all of Trump's responses/actions were appropriate or legal for a POTUS. Amash believes they should be looked into. If it was Hillary in the exact same situation, y'all would be screaming for it.


That's garbage and Amash isn't saying they should be looked into (they have been looked into and nothing was found) he is calling for impeachment over bogus charges.
If this was Hitlery I would be screaming for her impeachment over REAL crimes, like the REAL crimes O'Bummer committed and Amash never called for impeachment over.

----------


## fcreature

> What's with you, lately? Questioning some of Trump's actions on this whole mess, is NOT siding with the Clintons.
> 
> None of us believe the Russian BS- but that doesn't mean that all of Trump's responses/actions were appropriate or legal for a POTUS. Amash believes they should be looked into. If it was Hillary in the exact same situation, y'all would be screaming for it.


Seems to me there is a big difference between "looking into" things and calling for impeachment. I'd think if Amash wanted things to be looked into, that's what he would have said...

----------


## Ender

> Seems to me there is a big difference between "looking into" things and calling for impeachment. I'd think if Amash wanted things to be looked into, that's what he would have said...


Amash was happy when it looked like the investigation was over & Trump was cleared- then he read the actual report.

Try it.

----------


## fcreature

> Amash was happy when it looked like the investigation was over & Trump was cleared- then he read the actual report.
> 
> Try it.


I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said, but okay, I guess that means you agree - Amash would have said this needs looking into if that is what he meant.

Also, I've read the report. But unlike either you or Amash, I've closely followed the details of this case and have read a lot more than Andrew Weissmann's one-sided, fabricated smear that is the "Mueller Report". 

That's how I know Amash is full of $#@!.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Amash was happy when it looked like the investigation was over & Trump was cleared- then he read the actual report.
> 
> Try it.


What Amash points to as "impeachable offenses" is garbage.

----------


## Swordsmyth

@Ender try and debate the points made about the "Impeachable offenses".





> Originally Posted by *Swordsmyth*  
> 
>  				Justin Amash has become an albatross upon the   liberty movement in the  last week. Through his calls to impeach   President Trump, Amash has  burned much of the goodwill the movement had   built up through the  actions of Rand Paul and Thomas Massie during  the  Trump era. Worst of  all, he did so base upon logic which is   fundamentally anti libertarian.
>  Amash has posted several tweet threads supporting a narrative on    obstruction not dissimilar from those pushed by networks such as CNN. In    his latest thread, among many other things, Amash lays out  an argument on obstruction which will strike any libertarian who has read the Mueller report as absurd.
>  For the vast majority of Americans who have not read the entire    report, I have broken down below exactly why Amash is wrong below. I    list Amash’s six reasons in quotes, with my response directly below each    one.
> 
> 
>  “1. Trump asked the FBI director to stop investigating Michael Flynn,    who had been his campaign adviser and national security adviser, and    who had already committed a crime by lying to the FBI.”
> 
> ...

----------


## TER

https://mobile.twitter.com/dcexamine...69545938980864

Breaking news:  Amash quits House Freedom Caucus

----------


## sylcfh

> Trump is reducing welfare to citizens and invaders and our economy alone is sufficient incentive to keep the invaders coming here and turning us into a communist country.




How? By increasing the size of the federal government as much as Obama and Bush did?

----------


## Swordsmyth

> How? By increasing the size of the federal government as much as Obama and Bush did?






Migrants are forgoing welfare benefits out of fear of Trump’s proposed Visa rules

*New HUD rule prevents illegals from getting public housing assistance*

*Infuriating Democrats, Trump Plans To Redefine Poverty, Cutting Americans From Welfare*

----------


## enhanced_deficit

This dangerous trend is spreading unfortunately:


https://twitter.com/davidmweissman/s...55525569732609




> David Weissman, an Army veteran with  more than 80,000 Twitter   followers, tweeted. "I was really an idiot to  think he would be a good   president."

----------


## Swordsmyth

> This dangerous trend is spreading unfortunately:
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/davidmweissman/s...55525569732609


No it isn't.

----------


## fcreature

I wonder if clown Amash who claims to have "read the Mueller Report" will bother reading this?

https://www.realclearinvestigations....ng_claims.html

Just a snippet:




> But a close examination of the report shows that none of those headline assertions are supported by the report’s evidence or other publicly available sources. They are further undercut by investigative shortcomings and the conflicts of interest of key players involved: 
> 
> The report uses qualified and vague language to describe key events, indicating that Mueller and his investigators do not actually know for certain whether Russian intelligence officers stole Democratic Party emails, or how those emails were transferred to WikiLeaks.
> The report's timeline of events appears to defy logic. According to its narrative, WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange announced the publication of Democratic Party emails not only before he received the documents but before he even communicated with the source that provided them.
> There is strong reason to doubt Mueller’s suggestion that an alleged Russian cutout called Guccifer 2.0 supplied the stolen emails to Assange.
> Mueller’s decision not to interview Assange – a central figure who claims Russia was not behind the hack – suggests an unwillingness to explore avenues of evidence on fundamental questions.
> U.S. intelligence officials cannot make definitive conclusions about the hacking of the Democratic National Committee computer servers because they did not analyze those servers themselves. Instead, they relied on the forensics of CrowdStrike, a private contractor for the DNC that was not a neutral party, much as “Russian dossier” compiler Christopher Steele, also a DNC contractor, was not a neutral party. This puts two Democrat-hired contractors squarely behind underlying allegations in the affair – a key circumstance that Mueller ignores.
> Further, the government allowed CrowdStrike and the Democratic Party's legal counsel to submit redacted records, meaning CrowdStrike and not the government decided what could be revealed or not regarding evidence of hacking.
> Mueller’s report conspicuously does not allege that the Russian government carried out the social media campaign. Instead it blames, as Mueller said in his closing remarks, "a private Russian entity" known as the Internet Research Agency (IRA).
> ...

----------


## Swordsmyth

*Amash doubles down on call for Trump impeachment*

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Highlights for those who didn’t watch the Liberty Report. Around the 6:30 mark:
> *So this is a this is a coup, there's no other way of describing it.*


The TDS brigade will avoid noticing that no matter what mental gymnastics are required.

Amash JOINED THE COUP.
Amash JOINED THE COUP.
Amash JOINED THE COUP.
Amash JOINED THE COUP.
Amash JOINED THE COUP.
Amash JOINED THE COUP.
Amash JOINED THE COUP.
Amash JOINED THE COUP.

----------


## cruzrulez

> The TDS brigade will avoid noticing that no matter what mental gymnastics are required.
> 
> Amash JOINED THE COUP.
> Amash JOINED THE COUP.
> Amash JOINED THE COUP.
> Amash JOINED THE COUP.
> Amash JOINED THE COUP.
> Amash JOINED THE COUP.
> Amash JOINED THE COUP.
> Amash JOINED THE COUP.


yup. wonder why

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> The TDS brigade will avoid noticing that no matter what mental gymnastics are required.
> 
> Amash JOINED THE COUP.
> Amash JOINED THE COUP.
> Amash JOINED THE COUP.
> Amash JOINED THE COUP.
> Amash JOINED THE COUP.
> Amash JOINED THE COUP.
> Amash JOINED THE COUP.
> Amash JOINED THE COUP.


A coup isn't defined as "people talking about impeaching an official as permitted by law," obviously.

Of course, calling that a coup riles up the base, which is the purpose.

It's the same as the Dems insisting that Trump's a literal Russian agent.

...much sexier than the truth.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> A coup isn't defined as "people talking about impeaching an official as permitted by law," obviously.
> 
> Of course, calling that a coup riles up the base, which is the purpose.
> 
> It's the same as the Dems insisting that Trump's a literal Russian agent.
> 
> ...much sexier than the truth.


Lying and trumping up false charges with an illegal investigation in order to overthrow the duly elected President is a coup.

The TDS brigade will avoid noticing that no matter what mental gymnastics are required.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> Lying and trumping up false charges with an illegal investigation in order to overthrow the duly elected President is a coup.
> 
> The TDS brigade will avoid noticing that no matter what mental gymnastics are required.


...or this is just normal partisan tomfuckery,

...Trump's just a normal politician, not a super secret enemy of the deep state,

...and the titanic struggle for the soul of the republic exists only in the minds of GOP media consumers.

----------


## Anti Federalist

So why did Amash vote in favor of "tabling" the impeachment bill, which is effectively a vote killing it?

Was all this sound and fury, signifying nothing?

Seems to me, if this was such an important issue to you, you would have voted to at least continue the process.

----------


## devil21

> Lying and trumping up false charges with an illegal investigation in order to overthrow the duly elected President is a coup.
> 
> The TDS brigade will avoid noticing that no matter what mental gymnastics are required.


Wait, y'all are still fighting over what 9/11 co-conspirators Mueller, Giuliani, AG Barr and other swamp dwellers say on the teevee?    It was mildly entertaining for a moment but it's time to move on to the next episode.


^^^^^^^



> ...and the titanic struggle for the soul of the republic exists only in the minds of GOP media consumers.

----------


## loveshiscountry

> Lying and trumping up false charges with an illegal investigation in order to overthrow the duly elected President is a coup.
> 
> The TDS brigade will avoid noticing that no matter what mental gymnastics are required.


Amash isn't lying and trumping up false charges about obstruction. Was the collusion fake? Yes it was. The obstruction isn't which is what Amash is making it about. Could that obstruction be insignificant? Yes it could be but it isn't made up.

----------


## loveshiscountry

> So why did Amash vote in favor of "tabling" the impeachment bill, which is effectively a vote killing it?
> 
> Was all this sound and fury, signifying nothing?
> 
> Seems to me, if this was such an important issue to you, you would have voted to at least continue the process.


Because that would make the agenda false. We can't have that. How in the world can we throw one of the best defenders of the Constitution and rights of the individual under the bus if we don't make things up?

Can you imagine fighting with these cut and run pussies in a battle?

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Amash isn't lying and trumping up false charges about obstruction. Was the collusion fake? Yes it was. The obstruction isn't which is what Amash is making it about. Could that obstruction be insignificant? Yes it could be but it isn't made up.


There is NO obstruction, it's totally a lie.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Because that would make the agenda false. We can't have that. How in the world can we throw one of the best defenders of the Constitution and rights of the individual under the bus if we don't make things up?
> 
> Can you imagine fighting with these cut and run pussies in a battle?


I can imagine Amash shooting allies in the back.

----------


## loveshiscountry

> I can imagine Amash shooting allies in the back.


lol Yea I believe you would believe that.

----------


## loveshiscountry

> There is NO obstruction, it's totally a lie.


Well of course there isn't. Trump not the kind of person to fight back. We all know he's the type to sit back and let the cards fall where they may. sarcasm x 1 million

Because we determined not to make a traditional prosecutorial judgment, we did not draw ultimate conclusions about the President’s conduct. The evidence we obtained about the President’s actions and intent presents difficult issues that would need to be resolved if we were making a traditional prosecutorial judgment. At the same time, if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, we are unable to reach that judgment. *Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him. * 

To be clear, obstruction statutes do not require proof of such a crime.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Well of course there isn't. Trump not the kind of person to fight back. We all know he's the type to sit back and let the cards fall where they may. sarcasm x 1 million


Fighting back isn't obstruction.

Nothing Trump did was obstruction.

----------


## loveshiscountry

> Fighting back isn't obstruction.
> 
> Nothing Trump did was obstruction.


By repeating your statements and not responding to what I've posted it somehow becomes your truth? 

Again- Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him. 
Why don't you explain to everyone here what you know. What the report doesn't tell us? You seem to know but for some reason wont share with others.


Can you imagine fighting with these cut and run pussies in a battle?

The best thing about what Amash is doing is the same ones who are lost are not throwing Rand under the bus and writing him off. Too busy cutting and running from Amash to screw up another conservative. Granted the wind will blow next week and the emotional, irrational, "defenders of Liberty" will shriek about something else.

All day.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> By repeating your statements and not responding to what I've posted it somehow becomes your truth? 
> 
> Again- Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him. 
> Why don't you explain to everyone here what you know. What the report doesn't tell us? You seem to know but for some reason wont share with others.
> 
> 
> Can you imagine fighting with these cut and run pussies in a battle?
> 
> All day.


Don't insult my intelligence, not only is it not the place of a prosecutor to exonerate but failure to exonerate doesn't prove obstruction and Mueller is a lying scumbag.

How about you commit yourself to identifying an obstructive act so you can have your argument demolished like Amash's argument was?

I don't have to prove Trump innocent, you have to prove him guilty.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Can you imagine fighting with these cut and run pussies in a battle?
> 
> The best thing about what Amash is doing is the same ones who are lost are not throwing Rand under the bus and writing him off. Too busy cutting and running from Amash to screw up another conservative. Granted the wind will blow next week and the emotional, irrational, "defenders of Liberty" will shriek about something else.
> 
> All day.


I can imagine fighting with you and getting stabbed in the back because you listened to enemy propaganda or because you are an enemy spy.

----------


## loveshiscountry

> I can imagine fighting with you and getting stabbed in the back because you listened to enemy propaganda or because you are an enemy spy.


Yes I believe you would believe that. But that's on you and your weak character.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Yes I believe you would believe that. But that's on you and your weak character.


You've got nothing but lies and insults.

----------


## loveshiscountry

> Don't insult my intelligence, not only is it not the place of a prosecutor to exonerate but failure to exonerate doesn't prove obstruction and Mueller is a lying scumbag.


Again "while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him." Nothing more, nothing less. What you just posted insults your own intelligence.




> How about you commit yourself to identifying an obstructive act so you can have your argument demolished like Amash's argument was?


Because I'm not the one saying there is obstruction.




> I don't have to prove Trump innocent, you have to prove him guilty.


Which is what the impeach hearings would be about. You're not very good at this.

----------


## loveshiscountry

> You've got nothing but lies and insults.


You've got nothing but lies and insults while being a hypocritical pussy.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Again "while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him." Nothing more, nothing less. What you just posted insults your own intelligence.


He doesn't need exoneration.




> Because I'm not the one saying there is obstruction.


Yes you are:




> Well of course there isn't. Trump not the  kind of person to fight back. We all know he's the type to sit back and  let the cards fall where they may. sarcasm x 1 million
> 
> Because we determined not to make a traditional prosecutorial judgment,  we did not draw ultimate conclusions about the President’s conduct. The  evidence we obtained about the President’s actions and intent presents  difficult issues that would need to be resolved if we were making a  traditional prosecutorial judgment. At the same time, if we had  confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the  President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so  state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, we are  unable to reach that judgment. *Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him. * 
> 
> To be clear, obstruction statutes do not require proof of such a crime.









> Which is what the impeach hearings would be about. You're not very good at this.


Impeachment is not an investigation, you have to have obstruction to pursue impeachment and there isn't any.

You are very bad at this.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> You've got nothing but lies and insults while being a hypocritical pussy.


Projection.

----------


## loveshiscountry

> Projection.


Whining hypocrite

----------


## loveshiscountry

> He doesn't need exoneration.


According to you? lol





> Yes you are:


No I'm not. I'm saying that is Amashs reasoning.
Like I said, you're not very good at this.





> Impeachment is not an investigation, you have to have obstruction to pursue impeachment and there isn't any.
> 
> You are very bad at this.


Yes the impeachment hearings are an investigation. We the people hear information on why one is being impeached. Or maybe you think it is just a voice vote? You suck at this. Trying so hard to be right, instead of looking for the truth.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Whining hypocrite


You are weak and losing badly, keep projecting and it will stay that way.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> According to you?lol


According to the law, laugh all you want but you won't get POTUS Pelosi.





> No I'm not. I'm saying that is Amashs reasoning.
> Like I said, you're not very good at this.


You are terrible at this, Amash explained his reasoning and it got demolished, now you are trying to keep the lie of obstruction alive while pretending that you aren't.
Your dishonesty would be obvious to a small child.




> Yes the impeachment hearings are an investigation. We the people hear information on why one is being impeached. Or maybe you htink it's just a voice vote? You sick at this. Trying so hard to be right, instead of looking for the truth.


Nobody is that stupid, impeachment is a prosecution, you don't get to prosecute people to find out if they are guilty.

You want a Kafkaesque police state but you won't get it.

----------


## loveshiscountry

Here is your comment complaining about insults. 



> You've got nothing but lies and insults.


Yet here you are doing the exact same thing.



> You've got nothing but lies and insults.


Which is why I say you are a whining hypocrite. Only a weak minded cry baby would complain about something and do the same thing.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Here is your comment complaining about insults. 
> 
> 
> Yet here you are doing the exact same thing.
> 
> Which is why I say you are a whining hypocrite. Only a weak minded cry baby would complain about something and do the same thing.


I'm not complaining, I'm laughing at the emptiness of your argument.

----------


## loveshiscountry

> According to the law, laugh all you want but you won't get POTUS Pelosi.


lol I'm not the one throwing liberty candidates under the bus so someone like Pelosi gets stronger. That's you. 



> You are terrible at this, Amash explained his reasoning and it got demolished, now you are trying to keep the lie of obstruction alive while pretending that you aren't.
> Your dishonesty would be obvious to a small child.


No he didn't get demolished. That's just an emotional word you've used because that's how you are at times.
There has not been one lie by me either and you have no proof.




> Nobody is that stupid, impeachment is a prosecution, you don't get to prosecute people to find out if they are guilty.


So what you are saying is there is no back and forth and no questions asked? Granted you wont comment on this.
You're wrong, you are that stupid. 



> You want a Kafkaesque police state but you won't get it.


That's just a lie you made up because you you are weak and don't have a leg to stand on.

----------


## loveshiscountry

> I'm not complaining, I'm laughing at the emptiness of your argument.


lol Why sure you were. Keep back peddling like that and you'll make all Pro at cornerback.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> lol I'm not the one throwing liberty candidates under the bus so someone like Pelosi gets stronger. That's you.


Amash threw himself under the bus.





> No he didn't get demolished. That's just an emotional word you've used because that's how you are at times.


Yes he did:
*Dismantling Justin Amash’s Obstruction Argument*




> There has not been one lie by me either and you have no proof.


Oh?


> Amash isn't lying and trumping up false  charges about obstruction. Was the collusion fake? Yes it was. *The obstruction isn't* which is what Amash is making it about. Could that obstruction be insignificant? Yes it could be but* it isn't made up*.







> So what you are saying is there is no back and forth and no questions asked? Granted you wont comment on this.
> You're wrong, you are that stupid. 
> That's just a lie you made up because you you are weak and don't have a leg to stand on.


There is always cross-examination in a prosecution, you are weak and don't have a leg to stand on. impeachment isn't an investigative process, it is a prosecutorial process, you can't impeach someone until you have a reason and you don't have a reason.

There was no obstruction.

----------


## loveshiscountry

> Amash threw himself under the bus.


It wasn't a smart move imo. 

People like you threw him under the bus.





> Yes he did:
> *Dismantling Justin Amash’s Obstruction Argument*


Again that is just a silly word you used.






> Oh?


Again I am repeating what Amash is saying. That you deflect and lie about it is on you. 




> There is always cross-examination in a prosecution,you are weak and don't have a leg to stand on. impeachment isn't an investigative process, it is a prosecutorial process,


I never said otherwise. That you have to lie about it is on you. Everyone who reads these posts know for a fact that you are lying. It's a pussy move.




> you can't impeach someone until you have a reason and you don't have a reason.


His reason is obstruction




> There was no obstruction.


No reason to listen to you. You lie too much. You've lied multiple times in this thread and no doubt will continue to do so. It's a pussy move. Just like it's a pussy move to cut and run on a Liberty candidate when the going gets tough.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> It wasn't a smart move imo. 
> 
> People like you threw him under the bus.
> 
> 
> Again that is just a silly word you used.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your lies and projection are too tiresome to respond to further.

----------


## loveshiscountry

> Your lies and projection are too tiresome to respond to further.


You repeating the exact same deceitful drivel over and over again deserves no credibility.

----------


## Aratus

MARYLAND is going Democrat in 2020 in a very wise POTUS level way, shape, form and manner.  
Only his chosen few who are blunder*buss'd into his rallies could be happy with what he just did.

----------


## Aratus

JUSTIN AMASH is an honest man. He often reminds me of Doctor Ron Paul.

----------


## Alternative School

This is Ron Paul Forums not Trump or GOP forums. I like speaking to people with different views. However their is no place in our movement for people who would turn on other Libertarians because Trump told them to. Go back Free Republic or Red State where you bitch about the Demoncrats, Araabs, and yungins.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> This is Ron Paul Forums not Trump or GOP forums. I like speaking to people with different views. However their is no place in our movement for people who would turn on other Libertarians because Trump told them to. Go back Free Republic or Red State where you bitch about the Demoncrats, Araabs, and yungins.


+rep

----------


## Alternative School

Thanks for the rep man cause I expect to get hit pretty bad for saying this.

----------


## PAF

> This is Ron Paul Forums not Trump or GOP forums. I like speaking to people with different views. However their is no place in our movement for people who would turn on other Libertarians because Trump told them to. Go back Free Republic or Red State where you bitch about the Demoncrats, Araabs, and yungins.


Here's another + Rep

----------


## ThePaleoLibertarian

> This is Ron Paul Forums not Trump or GOP forums. I like speaking to people with different views. However their is no place in our movement for people who would turn on other Libertarians because Trump told them to. Go back Free Republic or Red State where you bitch about the Demoncrats, Araabs, and yungins.


I like talking to people of different opinions, just not anyone who will criticize Amash. Can't be _too_ ​different now.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> This is Ron Paul Forums not Trump or GOP forums. I like speaking to people with different views. However their is no place in our movement for people who would turn on other Libertarians because Trump told them to. Go back Free Republic or Red State where you bitch about the Demoncrats, Araabs, and yungins.


That's not why people turned on him.

----------


## enhanced_deficit

There does not seem to be clear link between Amash's attacks on MAGA and MAGA's falling poll numebrs but this would be troubling if following turned out to be non-fakenews poll:


*Trump slams Fox News over recent polling*



Related

*Republican Amash  is sole vote against Trump's anti-Semitism monitor*

----------


## Alternative School

> That's not why people turned on him.


That is actually why they turned on him. The Trump movement is like the Teamsters, you don't work for them you don't work at all. Can't wait for the election. The despair that the loss of Trump will create, the disillusionment, accelerationism will fully set in, in place of r/thedonald boomer types zoomer warriors will fully accept the gravity of our situation and be ready to stand against the new world order. The fire rises.

----------


## Alternative School

> That's not why people turned on him.


That is actually why they turned on him. The Trump movement is like the Teamsters, you don't work for them you don't work at all. Can't wait for the election. The despair that the loss of Trump will create, the disillusionment, accelerationism will fully set in, in place of r/thedonald boomer types zoomer warriors will fully accept the gravity of our situation and be ready to stand against the new world order. The fire rises. Yang Gang 2020.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> Yang Gang 2020.


Wait. What?

----------


## oyarde

[QUOTE=Alternative School;6848566]This is Ron Paul Forums not Trump or GOP forums. I like speaking to people with different views. However their is no place in our movement for people who would turn on other Libertarians because Trump told them to. Go back Free Republic or Red State where you bitch about the Demoncrats, Araabs, and yungins.[/QUOTE What kind of libertarians ? The ones currently running the party or just Amash ? I like Amash .

----------


## Suzanimal

> Wait. What?


Yang's version of Bernie Bros.

----------


## Superfluous Man

> Yang's version of Bernie Bros.


Yeah, but it was just out of the blue. This guy was talking like he was some kind of libertarian purist criticizing statist Trump trolls (and rightly so), and then it turns out he's a Yang troll himself, which is nearly as bad. Was he hiding that before? Or did I just not notice it?

----------


## Suzanimal

> Yeah, but it was just out of the blue. This guy was talking like he was some kind of libertarian purist criticizing statist Trump trolls (and rightly so), and then it turns out he's a Yang troll himself, which is nearly as bad. Was he hiding that before? Or did I just not notice it?


They're sneaky.

----------


## Alternative School

I'm not a troll. Look i've been trying to have serious conversation with swordswyth but instead I just get spam from the guy, he refuses to even try to have civil conversation so for a moment I said $#@! it.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> I'm not a troll. Look i've been trying to have serious conversation with swordswyth but instead I just get spam from the guy, he refuses to even try to have civil conversation so for a moment I said $#@! it.


LOL

Your spin is weak.

----------


## Alternative School

> LOL
> Your spin is weak.


Ok ill give it another try....

How do you call yourself a libertarian when you support a candidate who keeps in constant proxy wars such as in Yemen? What about how he wants to rule via executive order? How is it Libertarian to support a warmonger who has threatened the "end of Iran", who has threatened nuclear genocide in Korea, who says "kill their families"? 

What does it say about you as an individual that you support a man who brags about his friendship with Jeffrey Epstein, a man who is known for walking in when teenage girls are changing?

What does it say about you that you are threatened by people with opposing viewpoint? I've talked to several people via PM on this site and this is what you do. You harass new members who have opposing opinions. You think your smart but you what your behavior is a symptom of a weak man.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Ok ill give it another try....
> 
> How do you call yourself a libertarian when you support a candidate who keeps in constant proxy wars such as in Yemen? What about how he wants to rule via executive order? How is it Libertarian to support a warmonger who has threatened the "end of Iran", who has threatened nuclear genocide in Korea, who says "kill their families"? 
> 
> What does it say about you as an individual that you support a man who brags about his friendship with Jeffrey Epstein, a man who is known for walking in when teenage girls are changing?
> 
> What does it say about you that you are threatened by people with opposing viewpoint? I've talked to several people via PM on this site and this is what you do. You harass new members who have opposing opinions. You think your smart but you what your behavior is a symptom of a weak man.


More weak spin.

----------


## Alternative School

> More weak spin.


At first I thought it was just bad lack that we were commenting on the same threads. Then I realized your stalking me. It took me a little while to imagine someone so sad so insecure that they spend their time following someone else online.

Do you want a debate? Like one that would be quarantined so our arguments don't disrupt everyone else's experience on this site?

----------


## GunnyFreedom

Obstruction is stupid. 

Probably 43 out of 45 Presidents have arguably committed Impeachable Offenses. If Amash had been serious hed have based his complaint on any one of several actual overreaches. Honestly I think hes just trying to position himself as an independent and citing obstruction because its an easy flog and everyone knows its not going anywhere. End of the day its a strategic mistake multiplied by his decision not to cite a more compelling cause. 

At this point, every President since Nixon has done impeachable things almost on the daily. Bush was like an 8 on a 1-10 impeachable scale. Obama a 9. Trump is at like a 4 or a 5. Ultimately this comes off as ill considered and virtue signally. 

Hed have done less shooting himself in the foot if he had at least picked a different cause. And his timing was crap. 

If his complaint was the Executive bumpstock ban and his timing was when Trump was making pro red flag noises, (or whatever version of that same process that has more appeal to his home District) he would have gained some celebrity without losing nearly as much credibility. 

Bad subject bad timing, and now his public perception is so far out of whack hell probably never get it back. He could have done everything he needed to here without the tactical and strategic mistakes.

----------


## Origanalist

> At first I thought it was just bad lack that we were commenting on the same threads. Then I realized your stalking me. It took me a little while to imagine someone so sad so insecure that they spend their time following someone else online.
> 
> Do you want a debate? Like one that would be quarantined so our arguments don't disrupt everyone else's experience on this site?


Lol, not another one....

I hope you have a week or two to spare.

----------


## Todd

> This is Ron Paul Forums not Trump or GOP forums. I like speaking to people with different views. However their is no place in our movement for people who would turn on other Libertarians because Trump told them to. Go back Free Republic or Red State where you bitch about the Demoncrats, Araabs, and yungins.


alot of us are trying to figure out how someone who resembles a cliche of the GOP circa 2005 get's a "Reputation beyond Repute" on Ron Paul Forms

----------


## juleswin

> This is Ron Paul Forums not Trump or GOP forums. I like speaking to people with different views. However their is no place in our movement for people who would turn on other Libertarians because Trump told them to. Go back Free Republic or Red State where you bitch about the Demoncrats, Araabs, and yungins.


+rep The people from free republic have invaded this site and have taken over. We need people with some sanity to stay back and debate these people and hopefully we can bring this place back to what it used to be. 

That or wait them out, they will be gone the minute Trump is out of office.

----------


## Alternative School

> My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.


Same with my Yang Gang.

----------


## CaptainAmerica

Justin Amash is a slaver . Clearly he runs business out of China, what a disgusting truth uncovered by the liberty movement . 
He was never truly a libertarian, he was an opportunist and populist in disguise .

----------


## oyarde

> Wait. What?


Lol , I knew it .

----------


## Alternative School

> Justin Amash is a slaver . Clearly he runs business out of China, what a disgusting truth uncovered by the liberty movement .
> He was never truly a libertarian, he was an opportunist and populist in disguise .


What?

----------


## devil21

> What?


Don't waste your time.  CaptainAmerica is a troll account.

As if sourcing business from China, like 90% of manufacturing related businesses had to do to some extent over the last 20 years to remain in business, makes one suddenly not a libertarian.  By my estimation, he's probably the only truly libertarian Congressman in DC.  Lots of lukewarm types or outright frauds but he's the real deal imo.

----------


## enhanced_deficit

*RPI: "Impeach Trump But Only for the Right Reason"**House launches Trump impeachment inquiry , Only 4th time in history*

----------


## fcreature

How can this forum can still be kept under "Defenders of Liberty" at this point is beyond me.

----------


## angelatc

> Don't waste your time.  CaptainAmerica is a troll account.
> 
> As if sourcing business from China, like 90% of manufacturing related businesses had to do to some extent over the last 20 years to remain in business, makes one suddenly not a libertarian.  By my estimation, he's probably the only truly libertarian Congressman in DC.  Lots of lukewarm types or outright frauds but he's the real deal imo.


Yeah.  It is unfucking believeable that Bryan has allowed these forums to become Swordsmyth vs Zippy.    Neither of them are actually supporting Libertarians - they just lecture us on why we shouldn't.

----------


## angelatc

> What?


CaptainAmerica ia sarcasm.  And TheTexan is brilliant satire.  Welcome, but don't waste your time around here.  Trump killed us.

----------


## tebowlives

> That's not why people turned on him.


Amash does more for liberty in one day than you will in your entire life.

But you aren't trying to help liberty.

thanks for the help
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ty#post6837966

----------


## tebowlives

> Yeah.  It is unfucking believeable that Bryan has allowed these forums to become Swordsmyth vs Zippy.    Neither of them are actually supporting Libertarians - they just lecture us on why we shouldn't.


A great man once said,
“We don’t have freedom of speech so we can talk about the weather.  We have the 1st Amendment so that we can say very controversial things.”
"If you don't protect Liberty across the board, if you have inconsistency then you're really not defending liberty" 




> CaptainAmerica ia sarcasm. And TheTexan is brilliant satire. Welcome, but don't waste your time around here. Trump killed us.


Speak for yourself. I'm still kickin'.

----------


## Aratus

> Obstruction is stupid. 
> 
> Probably 43 out of 45 Presidents have arguably committed “Impeachable Offenses.” If Amash had been serious he’d have based his complaint on any one of several actual overreaches. Honestly I think he’s just trying to position himself as an independent and citing “obstruction” because it’s an easy flog and everyone knows it’s not going anywhere. End of the day it’s a strategic mistake multiplied by his decision not to cite a more compelling cause. 
> 
> At this point, every President since Nixon has done impeachable things almost on the daily. Bush was like an 8 on a 1-10 impeachable scale. Obama a 9. Trump is at like a 4 or a 5. Ultimately this comes off as ill considered and virtue signally. 
> 
> He’d have done less shooting himself in the foot if he had at least picked a different cause. And his timing was crap. 
> 
> If his complaint was the Executive bumpstock ban and his timing was when Trump was making pro red flag noises, (or whatever version of that same process that has more appeal to his home District) he would have gained some celebrity without losing nearly as much credibility. 
> ...


GUNNY......... Ms.Nancy Pelosi has the votes in the House to complicate Mr. Mitt Romney's life, as he tries to flipflop
his  quasi-French derriere safely past the idea that  the Senators can vote to convict or abstain or acquit.  i must now
pop some gourmet popcorn. this all is going to be longer than the Kavanaugh hearings. it is like Watergate. indeedy.

----------


## enhanced_deficit

Our worst fears have started to come true and other Republicans have started to join Amash's call.  If this devastating trend continued, could cause irreparable damage to respected globalist and neoconservative Shledon Adelson's bold investment in 2020 elections:


*Two Republican governors say they support  Trump impeachment inquiry*
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...inquiry-trump/



*SHOCK POLL: Support For Trump Impeachment Swings 13 Points in Just Days*

Sep 26th, 2019
The first polling on the question of whether or not President *Donald Trump* should be impeached since House Speaker *Nancy Pelosi*    announced that she’s supporting an impeachment inquiry shows a major    swing — one which leaves the public split right down the middle.
According to the Morning Consult,  there has been a 13 point swing in   favor of impeachment in just a  matter of days. The new poll, taken from   Sept. 24-26, shows the public  in a 43-43 deadlock on the question of   whether Congress should begin  impeachment proceedings to remove Trump   from office. The same poll,  conducted from Sept. 20-22, shows 36 in   favor of beginning impeachment  proceedings, with 49 percent opposed — a   massive swing in such a short  period of time.
Democrats, Independents and — perhaps surprisingly — Republicans all    showed an increase in impeachment support, according to the Morning    Consult. Seventy-nine percent of Democrats now favor Trump impeachment,    up from 66 a few days ago, with Independent support jumping to 39 from    33, and the Republican number increasing from 5 to 10.
https://www.mediaite.com/trump/shock...-in-just-days/


*Support for impeachment jumps in new poll*
09/26/2019
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...-trump-1515012

----------


## Superfluous Man

> Our worst fears have started to come true and other Republicans have started to join Amash's call.  If this devastating trend continued, could cause irreparable damage to respected globalist and neoconservative Shledon Adelson's bold investment in 2020 elections:


Well put.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to enhanced_deficit again."

----------


## tebowlives

> Our worst fears have started to come true and other Republicans have started to join Amash's call.  If this devastating trend continued, could cause irreparable damage to respected globalist and neoconservative Shledon Adelson's bold investment in 2020 elections:
> 
> 
> *Two Republican governors say they support  Trump impeachment inquiry*
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...inquiry-trump/
> 
> 
> 
> *SHOCK POLL: Support For Trump Impeachment Swings 13 Points in Just Days*
> ...


Does the public get to vote on impeachment or Congress?

----------


## Aratus

the Senate gets to convict him, if need be, if  he is guilty of  the abuse of power.
the House initiates the Senate Trial by having a key vote, after a debate. Good Q!

----------


## Aratus

the public gets to vote in the fall elections of 2020. i cannot see how any impeachment trial can be over with before X-mas.

----------


## enhanced_deficit

* CBS News poll: Majority of Americans approve of Trump impeachment inquiry*September 29, 2019

----------


## timosman

> * CBS News poll: Majority of Americans approve of Trump impeachment inquiry*September 29, 2019


(AMONG AMERICANS)

----------


## enhanced_deficit

> (AMONG AMERICANS)


Unfortunately, MAGA is not as popular among Americans as among residents of some foreign countries on the globe.

Trump Says if He Runs in Israel He Would Get 98% of The Vote

----------


## Alternative School

America fist lol

----------


## enhanced_deficit

*Another Republican leader comes out in favor of impeachment (Frm Governor Kasich)*

----------


## Swordsmyth

> *Another Republican leader comes out in favor of impeachment (Frm Governor Kasich)*

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Yeah.  It is unfucking believeable that Bryan has allowed these forums to become Swordsmyth vs Zippy.    Neither of them are actually supporting Libertarians - they just lecture us on why we shouldn't.


That was NEVER a libertarian forum.  Surely, you know that.  You've been around as long as I have.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Our worst fears have started to come true and other Republicans have started to join Amash's call.  If this devastating trend continued, could cause irreparable damage to respected globalist and neoconservative Shledon Adelson's bold investment in 2020 elections:]


That's pretty stupid conclusion, don't you think?  I don't particular want Elizabeth Warren, but perhaps you do.

----------


## enhanced_deficit

> That's pretty stupid conclusion, don't you think?  I don't particular want Elizabeth Warren, but perhaps you do.





> f this devastating trend continued, could cause irreparable damage to  respected globalist and neoconservative Shledon Adelson's bold  investment in 2020 elections


Is this conclusion accurate or not?  If this drip drip  bleeding of Republicans/former supporters  support continued (GOA, Foxnews, Coulter, Drudge Report, Mattis, Kasich, Tea Party leaders jumping ship so far), won't GOP-Sheldon Adelson wing suffer irreparable damage in 2020?
There is already increasing discomfort within America-First GOP factions over leaks that MAGA's top donor  was Israeli military soldier who wanted their children to serve in Isreali military instead of American.  
There is no chance of GOPA wing coming back (at least as Republicans) if it did not survive 2020.

As for your  projection about EW being the only alternative, why are you completely ruling out possibility of Rand, Sanford, Pence or some other Republican rising to the occasion and assuming that  Right wing globalist neocons or Left wing globalist wing neocons funded politicians are the only two options?
It was mindset like this that led to 8 years of "anti war" neocons agenda propagation by Obama under #FoolMe1.0 flip-flop campaign.

----------


## devil21

> That was NEVER a libertarian forum.  Surely, you know that.  You've been around as long as I have.


Weird.  Liberty Forest isn't libertarian?  Perhaps it's not Libertarian Party, per se, but not libertarian?  It certainly isn't "Republican".  Most people back then just held their noses and tolerated the GOP for a while as a means to an end.

----------


## enhanced_deficit

Things are spinning out of control fast.



* In closed-door Senate meet, McConnell gave PowerPoint presentation about impeachment process*

This is not going to be seen as defending MAGA at a time when drip drip  defections of Republicans are taking place almost every other day.
With friends like these...

*McConnell tells Senate Republicans to be ready for impeachment trial of Trump*
Oct. 16, 2019 
Majority  Leader Mitch McConnell told Republican senators Wednesday to  be ready  for an impeachment trial of President Trump as soon as  Thanksgiving, as  the Senate began to brace for a political maelstrom  that would engulf  the nation.
An  air of inevitability has taken hold in Congress, with the  expectation  Trump will become the third president in history to be  impeached — and  Republicans believe they need to prepare to defend the  president. While  McConnell briefed senators on what would happen during  a Senate trial,  House GOP leaders convened what they expect will be  regular impeachment  strategy sessions.
In their closed-door weekly luncheon, McConnell gave a PowerPoint   presentation about the impeachment process and fielded questions   alongside his staff and Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Lindsey O.   Graham (R-S.C.), who was a manager for the 1998 impeachment of President   Bill Clinton.


*Steve Bannon says Trump may be impeached ‘in six weeks*

----------


## enhanced_deficit

*ROMNEY DOWNLOADS ON TRUMP:  MAY VOTE TO REMOVE!*

*The Liberation of Mitt Romney*

    The   newly rebellious senator has become an outspoken dissident in  Trump’s   Republican Party, just in time for the president’s impeachment  trial.

  McKay Coppins
      Oct 20, 2019  

_Updated: Sunday, October 20, 2019, at 9:32 p.m. ET_
Mitt Romney is leaning forward in his chair, his eyes flashing, his voice sharp.

It’s  a strange look for the 72-year-old senator, who typically affects a    measured, somber tone when discussing Donald Trump’s various moral    deficiencies. But after weeks of escalating combat with the    president—over Ukraine, and China, and Syria, and impeachment—the    gentleman from Utah suddenly appears ready to unload.

What  set him off was my recitation of an argument I’ve heard some    Republicans deploy lately to excuse Trump’s behavior. Electing a    president, the argument goes, is like hiring a plumber—you don’t care    about his character, you just want him to get the job done. Sitting in    his Senate office, Romney is indignant. “Are you worried that your    plumber overcharges you?” he asks. “Are you worried that the plumber’s    going to scream at your kids? Are you worried that the plumber is going    to squeal out of your driveway?” I am playing devil’s advocate; he is    attempting an exorcism.

To Romney, Trump’s performance  as president is inextricably tangled up   in his character. “Berating  another person, or calling them names, or   demeaning a class of people,  not telling the truth—those are not   private things,” he says, adding:  “If during the campaign you pay a   porn star $130,000, that now comes  into the public domain.”


             At  this, Romney glances over at two of his aides who are   watching silently  from the other end of the room, and grins. “They’re   going, _Oh gosh, shut up_.”



*


Related

Rush Limbaugh claims Mitt Romney told Nancy Pelosi the Senate would convict Trump. It isn’t true.*

        By Thomas Burr  
Updated: September 30, 2019  
*Washington •*  Syndicated conservative talking head Rush   Limbaugh falsely claimed to  his massive audience this week that Sen.   Mitt Romney, R-Utah, told House  Speaker Nancy Pelosi that enough  Senate  Republicans would break ranks  to remove President Donald Trump  from  office.
 Limbaugh, who has a wide following among Trump supporters, said on his Wednesday program that “yesterday    and today Sen. Mitt Romney, Republican, Utah, had phone calls or    meetings, whatever, with Pelosi and assured her there was Republican    support to remove Trump.”
 The headline on Limbaugh's website touting a transcript of his remarks    declares, “Mitt Romney Cozies Up to Pelosi on Impeachment.”
https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics...h-claims-mitt/


'Friends' of Mitt Romney create site selling merch, encouraging Utah senator to run against Trump
Oct 13th, 2019

----------


## enhanced_deficit

With all due respect Mr Amash, what have you done...


*Trump impeachment odds skyrocket to 62% on popular betting website
*    Ben Winck
Associated Press


The popular betting website PredictIt  on  Tuesday saw its odds of President Donald Trump's impeachment in the   House soar as high as $0.62 against the dollar, implying a roughly 62%   probability.The  site's official rules outline the bet as the House of  Representatives  passing at least one article of impeachment against  Trump during his  first term. 

https://markets.businessinsider.com/...9-9-1028550142

----------


## Swordsmyth

> With all due respect Mr Amash, what have you done...


He has helped the Neocons try to pressure Trump to stay in and start wars.

But it will fail.

----------


## fcreature

LOL I'd love to see a public trial in the Senate as a consequence of a House impeachment vote.

60 vulnerable House Democrats on the record voting to impeach Trump over an obvious lie?

You mean Republicans will actually have subpoena power, documents will be made public, hearings will be public, and Trump will be able to defend himself?

Adam Schiff on the stand, Joe Biden on the stand, Hunter Biden on the stand...

"Whistle Blower #1" being outed. Oh, and by the way, who told you the second hand information you gathered...? While we're at it, let's call up Mr. Bill Taylor. Hey Bill... who told you to keep trying to get a Trump official to admit to a quid-pro-quo in writing?

You must be smoking crack if you think the Democrats are this stupid.

Oh - and P.S. - Amash is a deranged fool.

----------


## tebowlives

> He has helped the Neocons try to pressure Trump to stay in and start wars.
> 
> But it will fail.


Stop being silly. You have no proof of this and please don't say because he voted present.

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## eleganz

The only two main witnesses to this supposed quid pro quo, both said there was no pressure applied.

All other anonymous coming forward don't even claim to have any first hand knowledge.

In court, this would get dismissed very quickly.


All those falling for this obvious fake news narrative are either highly naive or have TDS.


Ron Paul knew from day one this was fake but some even here on RPF are still posting pro-impeach news because Trump plays their veins like guitar strings.

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## enhanced_deficit

* More bad news for globalist neoconservatives funded politicians in US and Israel*

Globalist nepconservatives funded politicians seems to be having a bad  week. Days after MAGA's top donors Adelsons funded Netanyahu failed to  form gov in Israel and admitted defeat,  this troubling news out of DC today about their other major political investment in the US:

*Donald Trump Has a Big Problem in the Senate*

    A resolution meant to be a show of solidarity by Republicans with the president has instead become a sign of weakness.
       Oct 25, 2019   
David A. Graham

As  the White House struggles to build an anti-impeachment strategy,   President Donald Trump turned this week to Lindsey Graham, his   staunchest ally in the Senate, to try to stiffen Republican spines in   that chamber. It’s not going the way the president must have hoped.

On  Thursday, Graham announced that he’d put forward a resolution   condemning the House impeachment inquiry. By mid-afternoon, when he   actually announced it, the resolution had been watered down to a plea  for a different and more transparent process, apparently a sop to GOP  senators unwilling to go quite that far. And yet by Friday morning, *only 44 of 53 Republicans  in the Senate had signed on to the resolution*.  A gesture meant to be a  show of solidarity by senators has instead  become a sign of the weakness  of the president’s position.

The  Senate was supposed to be Trump’s firewall in the Ukraine scandal,  and  there’s still not any reason to believe that there would be 67  senators  willing to vote to remove the president. But with impeachment  in the  House an all-but-foregone conclusion, as I wrote earlier this  week, the administration is turning its focus to the Senate, and it’s  proving to be less of a redoubt than Trump wanted.

_The New York Times_ reports:  After another private meeting Monday night with Senator Mitch   McConnell of Kentucky, the majority leader, Mr. Trump began complaining   privately that he did not think Senate Republicans were doing enough to   have his back. For days, some allies of the president’s eldest son,   Donald Trump Jr., had agitated on Twitter for Mr. Graham to do more to   try to counteract Democrats in the House.

Impeachment Just Became Inevitable

 

William Taylor Delivers the Smoking Gun


*Republican Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell throws Republican Prez Trump under the bus*

Alleged statement starts at @0:30 mark: 

https://youtu.be/CpFtlP0uZuQ?t=30



Even if video is not photoshopped, McConnell and MAGA go way back,  McConnell could have given him benefit of temporary foregtfullness  instead of throwing him under the media train  like that (at a critical  time when MAGA needed Republicans support after Amb. Taylor's damaging  testimony day before that allegedly has sealed the impeachment decision  for  many in Congress).

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## devil21

^^^^^^^
Yet McConnell's wife is still in Trump's cabinet.  Hmmm....

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## Son_of_Liberty90

I cant believe the move to censure Schiff failed.  That liar should be removed immediately from congress and arrested for his 2 year campaign of sedition.

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## enhanced_deficit

These two developments just a coincidence but nonetheless would be cause  for concern for GOP-Adelson wing leadership, pro Iran war donors and  Deep Neocons lobbies:


*Oct 28:*



At the end of the third inning, ballpark  video screens carried a salute   to U.S. service members that drew cheers  throughout the stadium. When   the video cut to Trump and his entourage  and the loudspeakers  announced  the Trumps, cheers abruptly turned into a  torrent of boos  and  heckling. Chants of "Lock him up!" broke out in  some sections.
Trump appeared unfazed and continued waving. Later,  some fans behind   home plate held a sign reading "VETERANS FOR  IMPEACHMENT". Another   banner appeared during the game: "IMPEACH TRUMP!"
news.yahoo.com/trump-series-visit-comes-high-223943092.html



*Oct 29:*

*'He's a patriot': Republicans defend key impeachment witness from attacks*

                                              Senior GOP lawmakers  rejected the assault from conservative pundits on Lt. Col. Alexander  Vindman.



             Lt. Col.  Alexander Vindman told House impeachment investigators  that he thought  President Donald Trump undermined national security with  his Ukraine  pressure campaign.
                            By BURGESS EVERETT and MELANIE ZANONA

         10/29/2019

                                                                                                                                                                                       Republican leaders are  stepping up  to defend Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman against vicious attacks  from  President Donald Trump's allies. 
  Republicans may quibble with the  substance of Vindman’s testimony as  they try to protect Trump from the  fast-moving impeachment inquiry. But  congressional GOP leaders say it’s  out of bounds to question Vindman’s  patriotism and allegiance to the  United States, as some conservative  pundits did on Monday night. 

                                                                                                    Several top Republicans on  Tuesday made  emphatic statements in support of Vindman, a National  Security Council  official who heard Trump’s phone call with the  Ukrainian president and testified that it was improper for Trump to demand an investigation into Joe Biden and represented a threat to U.S. national security. 

“That  guy’s a Purple Heart. I think it would be a mistake to attack his   credibility,” South Dakota Sen. John Thune, the No. 2 Senate  Republican,  said in an interview. “You can obviously take issue with  the substance  and there are different interpretations about all that  stuff. But I  wouldn’t go after him personally. He’s a patriot.” 
“I’m  not going to question the patriotism of any of the people who come   forward," said Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), though  he  declined to comment "on the merit of what’s going forward" or  Vindman's  suggestion that he was concerned Trump's actions had  undermined  national security. 
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/1...vindman-061057

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