# Lifestyles & Discussion > Open Discussion >  The problem with the NFL protestors

## Madison320

The NFL players that are protesting over unfair treatment of blacks are annoying to me for a couple reasons:

1. Many of their "solutions" like more wealth distribution and tighter enforcement of discrimination laws are only going to make the problem much worse. 

2. It ruins watching the games when I have to hear the announcers talk about it. I want to watch football not a political show.

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## tod evans

> I want to watch football


Maybe you should rethink your leisure options...

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## Anti Federalist

> Maybe you should rethink your leisure options...


Yes, this.

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## Origanalist

> Maybe you should rethink your leisure options...


Motorcycles can be fun, watch out for the refs though.

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## Anti Federalist

I find many things annoying about this whole thing, but one that stands out to me:

If I were to attempt something similar, I would get fired.

All across the corporate world, step out of line in the slightest way and you will be pounding the pavement before you know what happened to you.

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## CaptUSA

> I find many things annoying about this whole thing, but one that stands out to me:
> 
> If I were to attempt something similar, I would get fired.
> 
> All across the corporate world, step out of line in the slightest way and you will be pounding the pavement before you know what happened to you.


If a condition of my employment was such that I had to publicly get up and state my fealty to a symbol of State worship, I'm pretty sure I'd find another job. 

I don't really care one way or the other about this "controversy".  Stand up, kneel down, bend over, or do the worm.  Not hurting me in any way.

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## sparebulb

Eff these guys.

If I want to watch a nice humble game of football, I watch my local college Division II game for free on the internetz.

Or if I want to see one in person, I can drop about $5 at the college or the high skrool.

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## tod evans

> If I were to attempt something similar, I would get fired.
> .


Not if you were black...

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## specsaregood

> Eff these guys.
> 
> If I want to watch a nice humble game of football, I watch my local college Division II game for free on the internetz.
> 
> Or if I want to see one in person, I can drop about $5 at the college or the high skrool.


On side note, I find it amusing that both the Rams and Chargers left towns with an ample supportive fanbase and cities that had bent over backwards to support them in order to move to Los Angeles.  And now either the USC or UCLA homegames sell more tickets than Rams and Chargers combined.

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## juleswin

> Not if you were black...


Travis Kelcey, the most bad a** TE there is in the NFL also knelt for the anthem and he hasn't been fired and he could kneel from now till next year and nothing will ever happen to him.

































Oh, forget to mention the fact that he is white as hell. They are not getting fired because they have contractual agreement between them and their employers that gives them some employment security and I say some protection because Kapernick was eventually fired when his contract wasn't picked up the next season. Also most of you guys are absolutely replaceable at your jobs and these guys are one of a kind. There is no other Travis Kelcey on the unemployment line to replace him with. 



Everything isn't always about race.

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## sparebulb

> On side note, I find it amusing that both the Rams and Chargers left towns with an ample supportive fanbase and cities that had bent over backwards to support them in order to move to Los Angeles.  And now either the USC or UCLA homegames sell more tickets than Rams and Chargers combined.


Huge fan base for Division I football, for sure.

I find Division I football to be almost as nauseating as the NFL.

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## sparebulb

> Travis Kelcey, the most bad a** TE there is in the NFL also knelt for the anthem and he hasn't been fired and he could kneel from now till next year and nothing will ever happen to him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't consider Kelcey to be white.

He's a dumbphucker.

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## Danke

> Maybe you should rethink your leisure options...



Yes he he could pass his time where AF does:  http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/

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## oyarde

I do not care about any protests , nobody else cares so it is just a waste .

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## juleswin

> I don't consider Kelcey to be white.
> 
> He's a dumbphucker.


So a white dumbphucker? and just wondering, why don't you like him?

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## Anti Federalist

> Motorcycles can be fun, watch out for the refs though.


A superb choice.

But yes, keep an eye out for the crooked $#@!ing zebras.

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## Natural Citizen

Well. Doesn't look like people are going to the games these days. I call it a win for society. Maybe people will pay start to pay attention to the name of their secretary of state and what he's doing instead of their running back.

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## sparebulb

> So a white dumbphucker? and just wondering, why don't you like him?


No, I don't consider him to be white.

Nor was Che, Che.

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## euphemia

Here in Nashville that idea is absurd.  Nashville had the first black university.  Nashville has a university founded on the idea of strengthening common principles (with a black head football coach).  Nashville has a strong black tradition and was very active in civil rights from the start. 

The Titans stayed in the locker room today.  I put the few Titans items I own in a bag and they are now at Goodwill.  I have also fired off a letter to the CEO of the Titans saying I am done with football.  Tomorrow I plan to write the FOP and suggest they come down with blue flu next home game and I will also write my councilwoman and state legislator demanding that they end funding for the stadium and infruastructure supporting it.

So says the fat little grandma.

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## Madison320

> If a condition of my employment was such that I had to publicly get up and state my fealty to a symbol of State worship, I'm pretty sure I'd find another job. 
> 
> I don't really care one way or the other about this "controversy".  Stand up, kneel down, bend over, or do the worm.  Not hurting me in any way.


I don't like the "standing for the national anthem" thing either. If the players were protesting an overly intrusive government I wouldn't mind as much, but the they want MORE government not LESS. Although ideally I wish they'd keep politics out of it altogether.

Check out the BLM economic demands. It's communism with a racial twist. 

https://policy.m4bl.org/economic-justice/

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## sparebulb

> I don't like the "standing for the national anthem" thing either. If the players were protesting an overly intrusive government I wouldn't mind as much, but the they want MORE government not LESS. Although ideally I wish they'd keep politics out of it altogether.
> 
> Check out the BLM economic demands. It's communism with a racial twist. 
> 
> https://policy.m4bl.org/economic-justice/


That pretty much sums it up.

+1 rep

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## Danke

> Well. Doesn't look like people are going to the games these days. I call it a win for society. Maybe people will pay start to pay attention to the name of their secretary of state and what he's doing instead of their running back.



Is that pre-season?

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## Raginfridus

Yep. Class warfare couldn't fix the pig, so its race warfare that's really hot.

 @Madison320

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## Natural Citizen

> Is that pre-season?


Nope. This passed Thursday night.

Or is it past? I dunno. 

Last week.

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## H. E. Panqui

...i get a hoot out of the republicrat dummies whining about 'bringing politics into the equation'...THE NATIONAL ANTHEM IS THE EPITOME OF 'BRINGING POLITICS INTO THE EQUATION'.... 

...lol at many conservative republicans, especially...the 'conservative justice warriors' are showing their true authoritarian mindset: playing the idiot authoritarian in one breath while bloviating about 'liberty and freedom'  in the next breath...[in my best shultz impersonation: 'you MUST shtand und act the vay vee vant!']......

...i love it!...hopefully the republican idiot, trump, will continue to shoot his fool mouth off and it will get so bad, so out of hand, 'the national anthem' foolery is scrapped and we can shave a couple of minutes from these already-too-long games...

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## AuH20



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## GunnyFreedom

> If a condition of my employment was such that I had to publicly get up and state my fealty to a symbol of State worship, I'm pretty sure I'd find another job. 
> 
> I don't really care one way or the other about this "controversy".  Stand up, kneel down, bend over, or do the worm.  Not hurting me in any way.


I've never watched the NFL.  I've never gave a hot damn about kneeling or not kneeling.  I never gave a damn about Tebow or Kaepernick.  The one thing that annoys the snot out of me is the hypocrisy of Tebow getting criticized by the left for taking a knee to thank God, while these other people are getting praised by the same people for taking a knee to protest America.  And the vice versa on the right.

I couldn't possibly care less about any of this nonsense, probably on account of I couldn't possible care less about the NFL and hand-egg in general, but the hypocrisy on both sides annoys the snot out of me.

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## Danke

> So he stops being white because he is dating(not married) to a black lady? 
> 
> Btw no freaking way u knew that info before calling him names. I still would like to know what you hate him cos its definitely not this new info about his gf.




I think she is mulatto, look at her completion and nose.

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## sparebulb

> So he stops being white because he is dating(not married) to a black lady? 
> 
> Btw no freaking way u knew that info before calling him names. I still would like to know what you hate him cos its definitely not this new info about his gf.


You are quite right.  I did not know about his personal proclivities before my last post.

I don't consider dumbphuckers to be white.

There are countless blacks and others that I do consider to be white.

Kelce is a dumphucker because he has attached himself to a ridiculous movement that has no point other than to cause needless controversy to further a leftist/globalist/fascist agenda.

Plus, I've seen him commit needless personal fouls even after completing great plays.

He is a dumbphucker.

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## juleswin

> I think she is mulatto, look at her completion and nose.


I am lighter than her even though I grew up in very sunny Nigeria, I don't have a broad nose and I can promise you, I am not mulatto. I doubt she is mulatto.

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## sparebulb

> I think she is mulatto, look at her completion and nose.


Let's consider the remote possibility that she is an octoroon.

I'm confident that she is not, but I like to work that word into a conversation whenever I can.

It is also possible that she is niggardly, but we would have to ask people who actually know her.

Please inform me if anyone is triggered by this post.

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## juleswin

> I've never watched the NFL.  I've never gave a hot damn about kneeling or not kneeling.  I never gave a damn about Tebow or Kaepernick.  The one thing that annoys the snot out of me is the hypocrisy of Tebow getting criticized by the left for taking a knee to thank God, while these other people are getting praised by the same people for taking a knee to protest America.  And the vice versa on the right.
> 
> I couldn't possibly care less about any of this nonsense, probably on account of I couldn't possible care less about the NFL and hand-egg in general, but the hypocrisy on both sides annoys the snot out of me.


The difference between the some in the left that criticized Teabow and Trump and his fan boys are calling for these people to be fired. The people on the left were just butt hurt because they thought he was being pretentious with the whole Jesus thing. He was also going around saying he was a virgin. Essentially, people not just liberals were fed up with the righteous self and they started mounting off.

This is very different from what the **********s are doing

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## Ender

> I've never watched the NFL.  I've never gave a hot damn about kneeling or not kneeling.  I never gave a damn about Tebow or Kaepernick.  The one thing that annoys the snot out of me is the hypocrisy of Tebow getting criticized by the left for taking a knee to thank God, while these other people are getting praised by the same people for taking a knee to protest America.  And the vice versa on the right.
> 
> I couldn't possibly care less about any of this nonsense, probably on account of I couldn't possible care less about the NFL and hand-egg in general, but the hypocrisy on both sides annoys the snot out of me.


AMEN!

My POV exactly.

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## Anti Federalist

> I've never watched the NFL.  I've never gave a hot damn about kneeling or not kneeling.  I never gave a damn about Tebow or Kaepernick.  The one thing that annoys the snot out of me is the hypocrisy of Tebow getting criticized by the left for taking a knee to thank God, while these other people are getting praised by the same people for taking a knee to protest America.  And the vice versa on the right.
> 
> I couldn't possibly care less about any of this nonsense, probably on account of I couldn't possible care less about the NFL and hand-egg in general, but the hypocrisy on both sides annoys the snot out of me.


+rep

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## newbitech

what annoys me is the bandwagon nature of sports and politics being combined.  its nothing but pure propaganda from both "sides".  A total distraction in the the most absolute sense.  Whether it's planned or not, whether you are a diehard political junkie and have never watched sports in your life or the opposite a diehard sports fanatic that give 2 $#@!s about politics, these two worlds colliding and marching to the beat of the same out of rhythm drum has got to be the biggest attack on the American psyche I have seen in my lifetime. 

There is no escape from this bull$#@!.  That is the subliminal message being sent.  It's a rip your heart out assault on hope.  Hopelessness, that is what annoys the $#@! out of me about the whole thing.

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## newbitech

> Travis Kelcey...


haha!  Did you just go out of your way to find my last post to neg rep me on cause I negged repped you for putting a 'y' on the end of Travis Kelce's name?  Why not just go and correct it?  Bwahaha!   He sure was pedestrian today wasn't he?  Did he get hurt or something?  I just know I drafted him cause he's good and he didn't contribute to my score today.

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## HVACTech

> I find many things annoying about this whole thing, but one that stands out to me:
> 
> If I were to attempt something similar, I would get fired.
> 
> All across the corporate world, step out of line in the slightest way and you will be pounding the pavement before you know what happened to you.


you have a job?
like a real one... with a boss and everything?
no wonder you are so pissy all the time...
why don't you try flying your own flag, and call your own shots?
I have not had a job for 22 years. 
and if I can do it... so can you.
eh?

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## ChristianAnarchist

> Well. Doesn't look like people are going to the games these days. I call it a win for society. Maybe people will pay start to pay attention to the name of their secretary of state and what he's doing instead of their running back.


Haha... It's exactly why I like football.  An escape from all the political BS that badgers me day in and day out (like the IRS stealing my property and the goons trying to write me tickets for imagined "violations"....)

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## parocks

> what annoys me is the bandwagon nature of sports and politics being combined.  its nothing but pure propaganda from both "sides".  A total distraction in the the most absolute sense.  Whether it's planned or not, whether you are a diehard political junkie and have never watched sports in your life or the opposite a diehard sports fanatic that give 2 $#@!s about politics, these two worlds colliding and marching to the beat of the same out of rhythm drum has got to be the biggest attack on the American psyche I have seen in my lifetime. 
> 
> There is no escape from this bull$#@!.  That is the subliminal message being sent.  It's a rip your heart out assault on hope.  Hopelessness, that is what annoys the $#@! out of me about the whole thing.




We need a separation of sports and state.

Get the national anthem out of every sports contest anywhere unless it's an international tournament like the Olympics.  Maybe patriotic rallys,  where people go, just to say the pledge of allegiance, and sing the star spangled banner,  and watch a lot of tanks or whatever will be popular again,  if you get all of that right out of sports.

All this bs poltics being unnecessarily forced on football players by Trump (recently)  should just be all out of sports entirely.  If there is no national anthem (like almost everywhere else, almost always) there is no pointless controversy about it.

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## Origanalist



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## Origanalist

> I've never watched the NFL.  I've never gave a hot damn about kneeling or not kneeling.  I never gave a damn about Tebow or Kaepernick.  The one thing that annoys the snot out of me is the hypocrisy of Tebow getting criticized by the left for taking a knee to thank God, while these other people are getting praised by the same people for taking a knee to protest America.  And the vice versa on the right.
> 
> I couldn't possibly care less about any of this nonsense, probably on account of I couldn't possible care less about the NFL and hand-egg in general, but the hypocrisy on both sides annoys the snot out of me.


Well, that's one way to clear your sinuses.

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## P3ter_Griffin

Youtube 2.0.  Come on lets hear about these big bad capitalist NFL teams suppressing free speech.  Kapernik should sue the 9ers right?

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## Origanalist



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## shakey1

over-politicized BS.

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## CaptUSA

> That's what the government sanctioned monopoly of the NFL has been doing, for years.


Oh yeah!  Without a doubt!  That is what *I* find offensive!

I couldn't care less whether or not some athletes pay proper homage to a piece of fabric.  I'm also not offended if a statue stays up or comes down - unless it's on my property.

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## euphemia

But don't you all see how these demonstrations are making it harder for the rest of us to live our lives?  We already have too many laws on the books having to do with race.  The government-sanctioned media is obsessed with anything that can cause controversy and division.

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## GunnyFreedom

> For taking a knee? Show me a prominent liberal and not some nobody on the internet claiming to be liberal who wanted him to be fired solely for taking a knee? And I say prominent person because you can always find a person on the internet who believes anything.
> 
> This is an article written in 2011 about Teabow taking a knee and you can see that people(twitter and comment sections aside) aren't calling for him to lose his job for taking a knee. 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/sp...l.html?mcubz=3


I don’t even watch football. I have NEVER watched football, and I only know the phrase “excessive celebration” because it entered my vocabulary from people saying that Tebow should be fired for it. 

The last time I watched an NFL game, was like 1999 or 2000 when the Church I attended decided to host a Super Bowl watching party. I didn’t even know there WAS such a thing as “excessive celebration” until people were using it as a reason Tebow should be fired. 

Not being a football watcher in any way shape or form, I wouldn’t even know where to look for such a thing. It wasn’t ESPN or whatever calling for him to be fired, so searching ESPN is not where it’s at. It was the people. Liberal douchebag snowflakes offended at his display. 

Personally, I couldn’t possibly care less about the NFL or Tebow — I was taught that praying to make a show is what the Pharisees do to heap on the praises of men. I’m not defending Tebow. 

The point is that you would have a hard time finding someone who cares LESS about NFL football than I do, and the whole entire reason I even know that “excessive celebration” is even a thing, is I heard people talking about it in reference to why Tebow should be fired. 

You may not remember it, but I sure do.

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## Madison320

> I do find it funny that so many on the "right" are quick to point out "snowflakes" who get offended by the silliest things are now offended by perhaps the silliest thing possible: some irrelevant athletes NOT standing up and praising their flag.


Actually the players kneeling doesn't bother me it's the fact that the commentators talk about it that irritates me. And the subtle message is "vote for the democrat next time". I can't stand Trump but I don't need to hear him getting bashed when I'm watching football.




> Meanwhile, I'm over here thinking, "offend" me all you want...  just don't steal my $#@!.


That's the other part the bothers me. As I said before the protestors are in favor of increasing legalized theft.

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## sparebulb

> I dont even watch football. I have NEVER watched football, and I only know the phrase excessive celebration because it entered my vocabulary from people saying that Tebow should be fired for it. 
> 
> The last time I watched an NFL game, was like 1999 or 2000 when the Church I attended decided to host a Super Bowl watching party. I didnt even know there WAS such a thing as excessive celebration until people were using it as a reason Tebow should be fired. 
> 
> Not being a football watcher in any way shape or form, I wouldnt even know where to look for such a thing. It wasnt ESPN or whatever calling for him to be fired, so searching ESPN is not where its at. It was the people. Liberal douchebag snowflakes offended at his display. 
> 
> Personally, I couldnt possibly care less about the NFL or Tebow  I was taught that praying to make a show is what the Pharisees do to heap on the praises of men. Im not defending Tebow. 
> 
> The point is that you would have a hard time finding someone who cares LESS about NFL football than I do, and the whole entire reason I even know that excessive celebration is even a thing, is I heard people talking about it in reference to why Tebow should be fired. 
> ...


For reference, this is an example of excessive celebration.

The NFL allows a toned down version of the same to modify 'murikans diet of bloodsports with a social/political intent.

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## Madison320

> But don't you all see how these demonstrations are making it harder for the rest of us to live our lives?  We already have too many laws on the books having to do with race.  The government-sanctioned media is obsessed with anything that can cause controversy and division.


I agree. The problem is that political correctness is forced at gunpoint mainly in the form of discrimination laws. How many billions of dollars are wasted on this every year? I know at my company we have "sensitivity" training every year. Businesses are scared of lawsuits and it's just another tax on them. It comes out of your paycheck.

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## euphemia

Sensitivity training is so one dimensional.  Real life history lessons teach far more and allow and individual to really think and process what other people experienced.

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## Anti Globalist

So I'm guessing these NFL players are going to continue taking a knee throughout Trumps entire presidency?

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## juleswin

> Actually the players kneeling doesn't bother me it's the fact that the commentators talk about it that irritates me. And the subtle message is "vote for the democrat next time". I can't stand Trump but I don't need to hear him getting bashed when I'm watching football.
> 
> 
> 
> That's the other part the bothers me. As I said before the protestors are in favor of increasing legalized theft.


The other problem with this debate is that most ppl who are talking about this dont even watch or care for football.

Just so u ppl know, the kneeling started with Obama. Trump only made it a presidential issue by opening his big stinking mouth. This was never about the president. Kapernick even said that he did not vote for Clinton.

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## Zippyjuan

Trump IS a uniter!  He actually got the NFL to unite behind an issue.  He might even help Kapernick get his job back. 

This is typical Trump- if you are losing or getting bad press in one major area- distract with a red meat issue to feed the base.  in this case, to distract from the impending failure to do anything about Obamacare, he distracts by attacking athletes protesting the police state and tells businesses how they should treat their employees.

And it is drawing more attention to the protests (which most people had been ignoring up to now).

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## TheCount

> Tomorrow I plan to write the FOP and suggest they come down with blue flu next home game...


I'm having a hard time following.

- You oppose athletes kneeling during the pledge of allegiance during a football game in order to send a message

- You support and encourage government employees refusing to do their jobs during a football game in order to send a message

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## surf

> ...i love it!...hopefully the republican idiot, trump, will continue to shoot his fool mouth off and it will get so bad, so out of hand, 'the national anthem' foolery is scrapped and we can shave a couple of minutes from these already-too-long games...


I hate the anthem prior to (real) football games, particularly since the majority of players are not from the US. we have so much revelry for the military and "first responders" that it seems to be dismissed that most of these "brave" souls are overcompensated by us spectators.

these protests were initially about police brutality and zero accountability. that seems to have been lost.

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## Zippyjuan

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt...175221581.html




> *There is a false rumor about the national anthem in the NFL rulebook*
> 
> If you search Google for the NFL rulebook, a funny thing happens.
> 
> One of the suggested searches is NFL rulebook A62 A63. Another is NFL rulebook pages a62 a63.
> 
> What is the about? *There is a rumor that says the NFL rulebook has instructions for players to stand at attention during the playing of the national anthem.*
> 
> “The NFL doesn’t follow their own rules. The specific rule pertaining to the national anthem is found on pages A62-63 of the NFL League Rulebook. It states:
> ...

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## Zippyjuan

> Tebow and Kaepernick,  top running QBs getting drummed out of the NFL. * The NFL blackballs running QBs.*  They really want to sell the "NFL is a passing league" bs.
> 
> *Tebow wins a playoff game, loses a playoff game, and never starts another NFL game at QB.*
> 
> Kaepernick is one of the 3 QBs drafted this decade to make it to the Super Bowl - also Newton and Wilson.
> 
> Tebow, Kaepernick, Newton, Wilson,  RGIII, Pryor, Taylor - those 7 are the only QBs drafted this decade to run for 500+ in a season,  4 of the 7 are not currently playing QB in the NFL.


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...eally-a-winner




> Whether or not that makes Tebow a "winner" in a broader sense of the word is much harder to pin down. 
> 
> *Over 16 career starts, he is just 9-7 overall* (including the postseason). Most would agree that a career winning percentage of 56.3 shouldn't be tied to one of the game's true "winners."
> 
> In comparison, Tom Brady—Tebow's new mentor in New England and one of the most accomplished winners in NFL history—is 153-46 overall with a winning percentage of 76.9.

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## euphemia

> I don’t even watch football.


As a former office holder, what do you suggest is the best way to get our city and state to stop funding stadiums, infrastructure, and police presence on game days?

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## Zippyjuan

> As a former office holder, what do you suggest is the best way to get our city and state to stop funding stadiums, infrastructure, and police presence on game days?


All sized companies do the same thing- plead (blackmail) communities for tax breaks to either get them to move a facility to their area or threaten to move an existing one if they don't get more breaks.  Walmart is particularly known for doing this. And their owners are among the richest people in the US.  Get communities to bid against each other and go with who gives you the best deal.  Now they will even move outside the US.

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## euphemia

> I'm having a hard time following.
> 
> - You oppose athletes kneeling during the pledge of allegiance during a football game in order to send a message
> 
> - You support and encourage government employees refusing to do their jobs during a football game in order to send a message


I oppose players using my resources to protest anything.  Players are not marching out on a public street.  They are in a private facility with restricted access maintained by the city.    These teams use a lot of community resources and create a public nuisance.  Shoot, when Pac Man Jones was here we almost needed a whole precinct just to take care of him.  If these players feel oppressed, they have rights and probably a lot of access to people who can change that.  

I support government employees not showing up when what the people they are there to protect and serve protest their presence.   The message would be "If you don't want us here, then fine.  We can stay home with our families.  Deal with the traffic and security through private means."

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## Dr.3D

When I saw those guys down on their knees, I thought they were worshiping the national anthem.

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## euphemia

Specifically, with regard to the Titans, when they first came here, the late Bud Adams never bought a house in Davidson County, and most players don't live here, either.  So they are not pay property taxes to support schools here.  The city was connvinced it should build a stadium, but it was a strong opposition.  There was a ballot referendum that just barely passed.  They tried selling PSLs which worked pretty well in Charlotte, but there were not nearly enough sold to cover the construction costs which were somewhere in the $140 million range.  

Part of the agreement was that Tennessee State would get to play home games there.  They never fill even a fraction of the stadium.  On the other hand, Saturday's Alabama/Vandy game might have sold out.  But not an option, apparently.

All the sponsorship and concession licensing went straight to Texas.  Tennesse was told we would get to name the team.  That never happened, either.  Bud named it himself.  

Nashville is a small market, and they put the stadium right downtown, displacing poor people and some landmark businesses.  There was a lot of infrastructure to allow access to the stadium, again at public expense.  Traffic control and security on game days sucks a lot of police resources out of other events and venues that need it.  

It is a big, fat money suck, and I'm really fed up.  There are very few people living in Nashville who have any idea what real oppression is.  If anyone is oppressed it is the taxpayer.  This is nothing but a transfer of wealth from poor taxpayers to a rich entity that funnels a lot of money out of state.

No protesting and pay your own way.

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## sparebulb

> When I saw those guys down on their knees, I thought they were worshiping the national anthem.


Thread winner!

If I had a T watter, I would spread it around.

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## GunnyFreedom

> As a former office holder, what do you suggest is the best way to get our city and state to stop funding stadiums, infrastructure, and police presence on game days?


If it wasn't a popular vote-getter, they wouldn't do it. If you want to make them stop doing that, then make it unpopular with the voters.  Unfortunately, there really isn't much other option.  You could introduce State-level bills to make such practices illegal, but so long as they were popular with the voters then you would never get enough support to pass such a bill.

----------


## charrob

> If a condition of my employment was such that I had to publicly get up and state my fealty to a symbol of State worship, I'm pretty sure I'd find another job.



+1 rep.  Totally agree.

My question is is standing for the National Anthem actually a condition of their employment?  Is it written in their contracts?

Thousands of posts all over the internet have angry people saying they can 'protest on their own time' but not on their employer's time.  But where in their contracts is it explicitly written that they have to do anything more than play football?

----------


## Zippyjuan

> If it wasn't a popular vote-getter, they wouldn't do it. If you want to make them stop doing that, then make it unpopular with the voters.  Unfortunately, there really isn't much other option.  You could introduce State-level bills to make such practices illegal, but so long as they were popular with the voters then you would never get enough support to pass such a bill.


San Diego rejected a taxpayer funded stadium and the team left for greener pastures.  (but the team's actions suggested they were going to leave town anyways- though they are not getting a good reception in LA so far so maybe it isn't so green there either).

----------


## Madison320

> The other problem with this debate is that most ppl who are talking about this dont even watch or care for football.
> 
> Just so u ppl know, the kneeling started with Obama. Trump only made it a presidential issue by opening his big stinking mouth. This was never about the president. Kapernick even said that he did not vote for Clinton.


That's true that it started with Obama but the players and announcers didn't criticize him. And yes Trump is an idiot but so was Obama.

But there's no way that this isn't a subtle "vote democratic" message. As far as I know all of the black groups that are protesting want more wealth redistribution and stronger discrimination laws to "fix" the problem. And that's right up the democratic party's alley. That being said I'll bet secretly a lot of the players are pissed off that the government is stealing half of their earnings.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> +1 rep.  Totally agree.
> 
> My question is* is standing for the National Anthem actually a condition of their employment?  Is it written in their contracts?
> *
> Thousands of posts all over the internet have angry people saying they can 'protest on their own time' but not on their employer's time.  But where in their contracts is it explicitly written that they have to do anything more than play football?


NFL rules don't even require the anthem to be played- they have no rules at all concerning it so it won't be in any player contracts either.  (see post #74 above)

----------


## Madison320

> I'm having a hard time following.
> 
> - You oppose athletes kneeling during the pledge of allegiance during a football game in order to send a message
> 
> - You support and encourage government employees refusing to do their jobs during a football game in order to send a message


The kneeling doesn't me but the "solution" represented by the kneeling does. Doesn't it bother you?

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> Whether or not that makes Tebow a "winner" in a broader sense of the word is much harder to pin down. 
> 
> Over 16 career starts, he is just 9-7 overall (including the postseason). Most would agree that a career winning percentage of 56.3 shouldn't be tied to one of the game's true "winners."
> 
> http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...eally-a-winner


And Kaepernick was 2-10 last year. But every SJW will tell you he's one of the best QBs in the league...

----------


## juleswin

> That's true that it started with Obama but the players and announcers didn't criticize him. And yes Trump is an idiot but so was Obama.
> 
> But there's no way that this isn't a subtle "vote democratic" message. As far as I know all of the black groups that are protesting want more wealth redistribution and stronger discrimination laws to "fix" the problem. And that's right up the democratic party's alley. That being said I'll bet secretly a lot of the players are pissed off that the government is stealing half of their earnings.


Where are u getting their proposed solution from. As far as I know they are just asking for more police accontability.

Lastly Trump only got criticized becauee he inserted himself into the debate. Plus he threw the first punch by asking for them to be fired.

----------


## juleswin

> And Kaepernick was 2-10 last year. But every SJW will tell you he's one of the best QBs in the league...


There is more to a quarterbacks ability than his w/l record. Also nobody, not even Colin himself thinks he is the best quarter back.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> There is more to a quarterbacks ability than his w/l record. Also nobody, not even Colin himself thinks he is the best quarter back.


Sure. He also can't read the field, remember the plays, study the plays or exhibit any leadership. But he can run the ball, so who needs to know the play?

----------


## Madison320

> Where are u getting their proposed solution from. As far as I know they are just asking for more police accontability.


From the Black Lives Matter umbrella organization:

https://policy.m4bl.org/economic-justice/

Besides that, almost every article or interview I've seen. 





> Lastly Trump only got criticized becauee he inserted himself into the debate. Plus he threw the first punch by asking for them to be fired.


I agree, I just wish the announcers would ignore it.

----------


## AuH20

> From the Black Lives Matter umbrella organization:
> 
> https://policy.m4bl.org/economic-justice/
> 
> Besides that, almost every article or interview I've seen. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, I just wish the announcers would ignore it.


Did you read the first one? 'Radical and sustaining'? Sounds like they want to milk our udders for eternity. It's never about one issue with leftists because their entire twisted agenda is intertwined. 




> *A progressive restructuring of tax codes at the local, state, and federal levels to ensure a radical and sustainable redistribution of wealth.*

----------


## juleswin

> From the Black Lives Matter umbrella organization:
> 
> https://policy.m4bl.org/economic-justice/
> 
> Besides that, almost every article or interview I've seen. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, I just wish the announcers would ignore it.


Not the same group. But if u can make a connection between the NFL protesters and that website, please make it

----------


## Madison320

> Not the same group. But if u can make a connection between the NFL protesters and that website, please make it


What's not the same group?

----------


## dannno

> they are not getting a good reception in LA so far so maybe it isn't so green there either.


I could have told them that.

----------


## dannno

> Lastly Trump only got criticized becauee he inserted himself into the debate. Plus he threw the first punch by asking for them to be fired.


I could care less about the National Anthem, but I think Trump made a great move here. He literally moved the goal posts. 

Like others have said, black lives matter may have a grievance we can identify and agree on, but their belief structure and their solutions are not liberty friendly at all. 

Trump is going to show the NFL that if they want to keep their fanbase, they need to move away from being social justice warriors.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> I could care less about the National Anthem, but I think Trump made a great move here. He literally moved the goal posts. 
> 
> Like others have said, black lives matter may have a grievance we can identify and agree on, but their belief structure and their solutions are not liberty friendly at all. 
> 
> Trump is going to show the NFL that if they want to keep their fanbase, they need to move away from being social justice warriors.


It should be up to the NFL to decide if it is a problem and what to do about protests.   The government should not be telling a business what to do and who to fire.  There is also the question of free speech.

----------


## ARealConservative

> baloney sausage. Plenty of douchebags screamed for Tebow to be fired.


link please

----------


## Zippyjuan

"Just look at NASCAR." 

https://www.cbssports.com/general/ne...ts-in-america/




> *NASCAR's Dale Earnhardt Jr. voices support for peaceful protests in America*
> 
> Over the weekend, several NASCAR team owners made it clear that they didn't want any displays of protest during the national anthem. While many NFL players and other figures across the league found various ways to protest President Trump's comments about firing players who kneel or sit during the anthem, numerous figures across NASCAR supported the President's statement.
> 
> Team owners Richard Childress and Richard Petty were both quite outspoken regarding the possibility of protests, even going as far as to threaten termination for any employees who protested during the anthem. 
> 
> "Anybody that don't stand up for the anthem oughta be out of the country. Period," Petty said, via the Associated Press. "What got 'em where they're at? The United States."
> 
> Petty went on to say that any protestors would be fired from Richard Petty Motorsports, and Childress echoed that statement to his team.
> ...

----------


## Madison320

> The government should not be telling a business what to do and who to fire.


LOL!!!!!!

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> Fwiw, he never said that.
> 
> http://www.factcheck.org/2007/12/bus...iece-of-paper/


Gee too bad.  It was one of the few things I agreed with Bush on (and now I guess I don't).  Not that I agree with the "God damned" part, just the "piece of paper" part.  That's all the Constitution is.  A piece of paper that some men signed their names to over 200 years ago that has NO (ZERO) authority over me or anyone else living today.  I cannot be party to something that was written before I was born.  There are some good words written on that paper for sure but that's all they are - good words.  There is NOTHING that binds the goonerment to follow those words and certainly nothing there that says I have to worship some cloth hanging from a flag pole.

Everyone who gets all warm and fuzzy about that flag just keep those warm fuzzy feelings in your heart when you have to give up all that hard earned cash each pay check.  Before 1948 NO WORKER ever paid a tax to the federal goonerment.  Just think on that for a second and then go hoist your flag...

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> link please


I don't have a link for vocal cords.  I lived during that time and heard it with my own two ears.

----------


## Madison320

> I could care less about the National Anthem, but I think Trump made a great move here. He literally moved the goal posts. 
> 
> Like others have said, black lives matter may have a grievance we can identify and agree on, but their belief structure and their solutions are not liberty friendly at all. 
> 
> Trump is going to show the NFL that if they want to keep their fanbase, they need to move away from being social justice warriors.


Trump won't show them but declining sales will!

Actually I've cut back watching NFL games not so much because of this but because of the increasing complexity of the rules and inconsistent enforcement. I think it was sunday night football last week where the refs called back a long gain because the receiver set a pick. The announcers said that it should've been legal because it was within a yard of the line of scrimmage. How can the refs possibly keep track of all those intricate rules and make split second decisions? And some of those nit picky penalties make a huge difference in the outcome of the game. I hate it when it's like 3rd and 20 and the defense is called for a 5 yard penalty and it's an automatic first down. It should be 3rd and 15, not a first down in that case. I think a very large percentage of games are decided by bad calls. Maybe like 30% or so. It probably evens out over a season but not for each game. I don't think it's fixed, but I think they've let it grow too complicated over time and the refs can't keep track of it.

----------


## dannno

> The government should not be telling a business what to do and who to fire.


Why are all of your posts so contorted?

The "government" isn't telling the NFL what to do or who to fire, Trump is just saying it as a suggestion or a personal opinion.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Why are all of your posts so contorted?
> 
> The "government" isn't telling the NFL what to do or who to fire, Trump is just saying it as a suggestion or a personal opinion.


He did not order them to be fired but did say they should be fired. Not his business to say what they should do.




> Trump said NFL owners should respond to the players by saying, *"Get that son of a bitch off the field right now, he's fired. He's fired*!"

----------


## Anti Federalist

> "Just look at NASCAR." 
> 
> https://www.cbssports.com/general/ne...ts-in-america/


Funny how the left doesn't believe that, even when you're *NOT* on company time.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> He did not order them to be fired but did say they should be fired. Not his business to say what they should do.


Wait...football millionaires have free speech rights even while on the job, but the Chief Executive does not?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Trump won't show them but declining sales will!
> 
> Actually I've cut back watching NFL games not so much because of this but because of the increasing complexity of the rules and inconsistent enforcement. I think it was sunday night football last week where the refs called back a long gain because the receiver set a pick. The announcers said that it should've been legal because it was within a yard of the line of scrimmage. *How can the refs possibly keep track of all those intricate rules and make split second decisions?* And some of those nit picky penalties make a huge difference in the outcome of the game. I hate it when it's like 3rd and 20 and the defense is called for a 5 yard penalty and it's an automatic first down. It should be 3rd and 15, not a first down in that case. I think a very large percentage of games are decided by bad calls. Maybe like 30% or so. It probably evens out over a season but not for each game. I don't think it's fixed, but I think they've let it grow too complicated over time and the refs can't keep track of it.


Police state games for police state nation.

Seek entertainment elsewhere.

FTR: this is why I stopped watching the last pro sports product that I even loosely followed: NASCAR racing.

"Restrictor plates" did it for me.

This is RACING, the object *is* to go as fast as you can.

Not to mention there has been nothing even remotely "stock" about a stock car in 30 plus years.

About the only form of racing that truly is "unlimited" is the Unlimited classes of this:

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Wait...football millionaires have free speech rights even while on the job, but the Chief Executive does not?


Presidential statements can carry the force of law.  A footballer's words do not.

----------


## ARealConservative

> I don't have a link for vocal cords.  I lived during that time and heard it with my own two ears.



Tim Tebow was a truly bad qb.  Fans wanted him fired because he couldn't play QB.  His taking a knee had nothing to do with their motives.

----------


## Jamesiv1

> He did not order them to be fired but did say they should be fired. Not his business to say what they should do.


Anybody that thinks its wrong for the President of the United States to tell a business they ought to fire a bunch of commie losers who disrespect the flag can just get the hell on out.

----------


## Madison320

> Tim Tebow was a truly bad qb.  Fans wanted him fired because he couldn't play QB.  His taking a knee had nothing to do with their motives.


I totally agree and I'm a Gator fan. He had the longest, slowest throwing motion I can remember. Every off season people would say he was fixing his throwing motion and every year I'd watch him almost brush his knee with the ball. He threw more like a baseball pitcher than a football qb.

----------


## FSP-Rebel



----------


## FSP-Rebel



----------


## charrob

> Very few things required by employers are spelled out in contracts.



Do NFL employers require this?

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> Do NFL employers require this?


That is the real question. And apparently they don't require it.

But they have taken sides in a political battle, which is never good for business, unless your true business is Marxism.

Monopolies and oligopolies don't care about pleasing customers. This is an extension of what we have seen from the mainstream media and the largest tech companies. Screw you, they are taking sides, and they don't care about consequences when it serves their higher agenda.

----------


## Cutlerzzz

> Tebow and Kaepernick,  top running QBs getting drummed out of the NFL.  The NFL blackballs running QBs.  They really want to sell the "NFL is a passing league" bs.
> 
> Tebow wins a playoff game, loses a playoff game, and never starts another NFL game at QB.
> 
> Kaepernick is one of the 3 QBs drafted this decade to make it to the Super Bowl - also Newton and Wilson.
> 
> Tebow, Kaepernick, Newton, Wilson,  RGIII, Pryor, Taylor - those 7 are the only QBs drafted this decade to run for 500+ in a season,  4 of the 7 are not currently playing QB in the NFL.


All of them besides Wilson are terrible.

----------


## Danke



----------


## loveshiscountry

> Alejandro Villanueva apologizes for throwing Steeler teammates under the bus
> http://fox2now.com/2017/09/25/alejan...under-the-bus/
> Alejandro Villanueva, a Steelers lineman and U.S. Army veteran, was pictured standing alone before Sundays game during the national anthem while the rest of the team refused to take the field in protest. His stand has made his jersey one of the top sellers in the NFL.
> 
> Unfortunately I threw my teammates under the bus, unintentionally, Villanueva said in a press conference Monday. Every single time I see that picture of me standing by myself I feel embarrassed.
> 
> What a jackass. Now the mad rush to cancel the swag from all those that supported his earlier stance.


Agreed. I wonder how the former rangers he served with are going to feel?

The flag is different than government. Imo the flag represents what the people believe in, our freedoms, our country. It doesn't represent government and government is the one at fault here. Not country.
Not saying you are saying otherwise.

----------


## Swordsmyth

*NFL Players Kneel During Anthem, Stand For ‘God Save The Queen’**Dozens of NFL players for the Baltimore Ravens and  Jacksonville Jaguars showed a unified front on Sunday and kneeled as the  national anthem played during the start of their game in London,  defying President Trump’s attacks on the league’s athletes.*
 Those who were not kneeling, including the coaches on both teams and  Jaguars owner Shahid Khan, locked arms during the national anthem at the  game in London’s Wembley Stadium. Players taking a knee during the  performance included Ravens linebacker Terrell Suggs and C.J. Mosley,  wide receiver Mike Wallace and safety Lardarius Webb as well as Jaguars  running back Leonard Fournette, linebacker Dante Fowler, defensive  tackle Calais Campbell, defensive end Yannick Ngakoue and cornerback  Jalen Ramsey.
*The players then stood up for “God Save the Queen,” the British anthem.*

More at: http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2017/0...ks-on-nfl.html

Because the UK is such a wonderful example to the world?

----------


## loveshiscountry

> Tebow and Kaepernick,  top running QBs getting drummed out of the NFL.  The NFL blackballs running QBs.  They really want to sell the "NFL is a passing league" bs.
> 
> Tebow wins a playoff game, loses a playoff game, and never starts another NFL game at QB.
> 
> Kaepernick is one of the 3 QBs drafted this decade to make it to the Super Bowl - also Newton and Wilson.
> 
> Tebow, Kaepernick, Newton, Wilson,  RGIII, Pryor, Taylor - those 7 are the only QBs drafted this decade to run for 500+ in a season,  4 of the 7 are not currently playing QB in the NFL.


Besides what others have said maybe the biggest reason is they don't last long. Wilson slides and avoids contact. That's an anomaly for a running QB. 

Taylors done decent enough. This is his 3rd full season. First 2 had 100 carries. He wont last.

Newtons a beast but even when Carolina had the big year and he got MVP, he didn't do anything much different, The passing tds went up because of the defense and turnovers they got. He's a 60 percent passer. Besides the running of course. He's good at that. Gets a decent amount of rushing TDs on a team with good running backs. lol

Cunningham is another. After becoming starter in his 3rd year, he started most of his games the next 4 years. After that, 3 times in the next 10 seasons. 1998 was his best season and he did it passing not running. 32 carries for a full season, next lowest rushing attempts he had in a full season, was 65 carries.

----------


## charrob

> That is the real question. And apparently they don't require it.



So it is optional.  


Religion and politics are known to be hotly contested subjects; it makes no sense to me to include either one in a work place since it has nothing to do with the skills and the talents of the people that work there nor the mission of the employer.  I can understand countries anthems in international sporting events like the Olympics when different countries compete.  The inclusion in a local sporting event makes no sense to me.  And so I would agree with the NFL employers that something like this should be optional.

It will be interesting to see where this goes. imho the best outcome would be to completely separate sports from politics and save the anthem for political rallies and such.

----------


## TheCount

> I oppose players using my resources to protest anything.


A police sick day is also using your resources.





> I support government employees not showing up when what the people they are there to protect and serve protest their presence.   The message would be "If you don't want us here, then fine.  We can stay home with our families.  Deal with the traffic and security through private means."


I don't think that government employees should be able to make the decision of who is sufficiently patriotic or worthy of government services.

----------


## TheCount

> We need to start our own movement to change the state and local laws that give the cops a get out of jail free card...


There are already laws against police abuse of authority and brutality.  A hundred more laws will not change anything if juries refuse to convict.

The problem is culture.  I would argue that the culture that can't bear athletes kneeling during the national anthem is the same culture that sees police as beyond reproach and an entity that needs to be supported regardless of its actions.  It is a religion of state which will not bear any 'offense' against it.





> We need to show everyone that you can oppose the current state of the nation and still respect the ideals it should represent.


Which side is disrespecting the nation's ideals?  The group attempting to make things better, but whose methods you disagree with, or the group attempting to quash dissent?

----------


## TheCount

> The kneeling doesn't me but the "solution" represented by the kneeling does. Doesn't it bother you?


Opposing their kneeling is not going to change their opinion as to what the solution should be.  Supporting them in trying to change things and then engaging them in reasoned discussion about the best solution to the country's problems would be more productive.

The person best able to have that conversation is the person kneeling beside them.

----------


## otherone

> Wow... I can't believe how far from LIBERTY this forum has gone.  I remember the good ol' days when people here used to quote Ron Paul and want to be like him.  Now a good number of you want to start boot licking and feeling all good about waving a flag while bombing the $#@! out of anyone you think looks at you sideways.  Why am I here again???


Yah.  Pay attention.

The boot-licking here is a reaction to BLM.  If the protest was anti-BLM (Bureau of Land Management), you'd be seeing posters falling all over each other in support of the kneelers.

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> Police state games for police state nation.
> 
> Seek entertainment elsewhere.
> 
> FTR: this is why I stopped watching the last pro sports product that I even loosely followed: NASCAR racing.
> 
> "Restrictor plates" did it for me.
> 
> This is RACING, the object *is* to go as fast as you can.
> ...


Nope, there's another... The worlds fastest racing...

----------


## euphemia

> I don't think that government employees should be able to make the decision of who is sufficiently patriotic or worthy of government services.


Are you not getting the players are protesting the police?  Try to keep up.

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> 2. It ruins watching the games when I have to hear the announcers talk about it. I want to watch football not a political show.


That the crazed, insane, batty Anti-RAYAYAYAYCYST Social "Justice" "Warriors" (really anti-social, anti-justice Rabbits) have chosen to infect and ruin one of the last simple, enjoyable, carefree escapes that normal, working white men have is..... _fantastic!_

Their march has gone as far as it can (for now).  All sympathy is being lost.  As they descend into Leftist Singularity, the entire rest of the country, every marginally sane man left, is becoming disgusted by their deranged behavior and aligning as their avowed enemy.

Come, K-Shift, come!

----------


## sparebulb

> Are you not getting the players are protesting the police?  Try to keep up.


It would be interesting to Jaywalk in the locker room to ask a bunch of these guys what they are protesting against.

Whether they know it or not, they are protesting white people and what is left of a free market, constitutional form of government.

----------


## Madison320

> Opposing their kneeling is not going to change their opinion as to what the solution should be.  Supporting them in trying to change things and then engaging them in reasoned discussion about the best solution to the country's problems would be more productive.
> 
> The person best able to have that conversation is the person kneeling beside them.


I'm sorry but I don't believe you for a second. If during the Obama administration white players were protesting treatment of whites I know damn well you wouldn't be saying that.

----------


## Madison320

> One opinion on this nonsense...


He makes some good points. 

That reminds me of another irritating thing about Kaepernick's protest. He said he was protesting the oppression of blacks by the US. Is there any other country in the world where blacks have a higher standard of living than in the US?

----------


## euphemia

If you ask the players, they probably don't know.  In the Titans-Seahawks game, the announcement was specifically about racial inequality and police brutality.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Nope, there's another... The worlds fastest racing...


While I agree that air racing is an insanely fast, breathtaking sport, you *are* limited in the class of aircraft you can fly, unless I'm mistaken, I could not compete in a surplus T-38.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Whether they know it or not, they are protesting white people and what is left of a free market, constitutional form of government.


And there it is.

Whether anybody wants to admit it or not, that's the bottom line.

And the people they have aligned themselves with, at least some of the more outspoken ones, have stated, without ambiguity, that they want me, my family, my belief system and my history *exterminated*.

I have no choice but to align and pick a side now.

I hate having been forced into that position, but it is what it is.

War is all hell.

I owe you a rep.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> So it is optional.  
> 
> Religion and politics are known to be hotly contested subjects; it makes no sense to me to include either one in a work place since it has nothing to do with the skills and the talents of the people that work there nor the mission of the employer.  I can understand countries anthems in international sporting events like the Olympics when different countries compete.  The inclusion in a local sporting event makes no sense to me.  And so I would agree with the NFL employers that something like this should be optional.
> 
> It will be interesting to see where this goes. imho the best outcome would be to completely separate sports from politics and save the anthem for political rallies and such.


No disagreement here. It's not good business to include partisan politics.

But the anthem is a tradition at sporting events. It is non-partisan. How did it become a tradition? I don't know. Should it change? I don't care. 

Should we stand and sing "take me out to the ballpark" at baseball games? Eh, don't care one way or another. Should it be changed? I don't see a reason for these arbitrary, hysterical, partisan political demands to change traditions.

Let's not ignore the big picture. At it's core, this is a Marxist revolution, and that always requires the destruction of existing traditions.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> Tebow and Kaepernick,  top running QBs getting drummed out of the NFL.  The NFL blackballs running QBs.  They really want to sell the "NFL is a passing league" bs.
> 
> Tebow wins a playoff game, loses a playoff game, and never starts another NFL game at QB.
> 
> Kaepernick is one of the 3 QBs drafted this decade to make it to the Super Bowl - also Newton and Wilson.
> 
> Tebow, Kaepernick, Newton, Wilson,  RGIII, Pryor, Taylor - those 7 are the only QBs drafted this decade to run for 500+ in a season,  4 of the 7 are not currently playing QB in the NFL.


Kaepernick "made it to the Super Bowl" on the back of Alex Smith, who played more of the regular season. Smith had the highest completion percentage and passer rating in the entire NFL that year. Harbaugh replaced him with Kaepernick because a "running Quarterback" was the hot fad of the day. It cost the Niners the Super Bowl, and led to the eventual firing of Jim Harbaugh.

----------


## TheCount

> Are you not getting the players are protesting the police?  Try to keep up.


Should government employees get to decide who to serve and who not to serve?

If the answer is no, then it doesn't matter if they're protesting against the police.

----------


## TheCount

> I'm sorry but I don't believe you for a second. If during the Obama administration white players were protesting treatment of whites I know damn well you wouldn't be saying that.


Cool story bro.

----------


## TheCount

> And the people they have aligned themselves with, at least some of the more outspoken ones, have stated, without ambiguity, that they want me, my family, my belief system and my history *exterminated*.


 Isn't that the 'Ron Paul is a racist because some people who support him are racists' logic?

----------


## dannno

> Isn't that the 'Ron Paul is a racist because some people who support him are racists' logic?


No.

----------


## Ender

> There are already laws against police abuse of authority and brutality.  A hundred more laws will not change anything if juries refuse to convict.
> 
> The problem is culture.  I would argue that the culture that can't bear athletes kneeling during the national anthem is the same culture that sees police as beyond reproach and an entity that needs to be supported regardless of its actions.  It is a religion of state which will not bear any 'offense' against it.
> 
> 
> Which side is disrespecting the nation's ideals?  The group attempting to make things better, but whose methods you disagree with, or the group attempting to quash dissent?


I agree with this.

And WHY is an athlete kneeling getting more attention and whining from Trump, _& the forum_, than the violent protests that have emerged?

Peaceful protesting should be what we are all in favor of- no matter which side you favor.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

Cater to your employees, or cater to your customers, that is the question.

----------


## acptulsa

> No.


One word?  When it comes to defending Trump, you can write thousand word essays and stand on your head.

Why isn't it guilt by association?  If the powers that be can spew deplorable nonsense and call themselves libertarian while doing it, causing people to be leery of us, then why can't they divide us from the anti-fascist police movement by trying to tie it to communism?

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> If you ask the players, they probably don't know.  In the Titans-Seahawks game, the announcement was specifically about racial inequality and police brutality.


Useful idiots for the Fabians and outright Marxists.

----------


## dannno

> One word?  When it comes to defending Trump, you can write thousand word essays and stand on your head.
> 
> Why isn't it guilt by association?  If the powers that be can spew deplorable nonsense and call themselves libertarian while doing it, causing people to be leery of us, then why can't they divide us from the anti-fascist police movement by trying to tie it to communism?



Because.

BLM tends to be racist against whites, they tend to want redistribution of wealth from whites, etc.. Some of them go so far as to want to exterminate the white race, but even the more commonly held beliefs are anti-white..

Whereas Ron Paul is not racist, 90+% of his supporters were not racist, so it was actually a minority of people who they were using guilt by association whereas the majority of the leaders of the BLM movement are anti-white. I don't know the make-up of BLM supporters, but I'm guessing there is a significantly higher percentage of anti-white racists in the BLM than racist Ron Paul supporters.

----------


## acptulsa

> Because.
> 
> BLM tends to be racist against whites, they tend to want redistribution of wealth from whites, etc.. Some of them go so far as to want to exterminate the white race, but even the more commonly held beliefs are anti-white..
> 
> Whereas Ron Paul is not racist, 90+% of his supporters were not racist, so it was actually a minority of people who they were using guilt by association whereas the majority of the leaders of the BLM movement are anti-white. I don't know the make-up of BLM supporters, but I'm guessing there is a significantly higher percentage of anti-white racists in the BLM than racist Ron Paul supporters.


Did it even stir those hairs on your scalp when the point flew over your head?

If the powers that be can fill the internet with people who claim to be libertarian spewing stuff that isn't libertarian, if they can ignore the people who created the 'Tea Party' and tell the public it's something else so loudly and so often that the Tea Party actually _turns into_ something else, why couldn't they fill a movement against militarized police full of communists and bigoted blacks and then give their own plants within that movement all the publicity?

Do we know those people any better than they know libertarians?  Or are we falling for the same fake news they fall for?  Have _you_ personally scratched below the surface of it?

----------


## euphemia

And I will just add that the police bear a heavier burden because of the Titans.  They have to show up and escort them to and from games, protect the players, direct traffic at games, and clean up their messes.

They had to clean up the murder of Steve McNair.
They had to go find Vince Young.
They have to let them go when they drive drunk in downtown Nashville.
They practically needed a whole precinct to babysit PacMan Jones when he was here.

And they have to stand at attention in the 90+ degree heat while the teams sit in the air conditioned locker rooms to protest police brutality.  Give me a break.

----------


## dannno

> Did it even stir those hairs on your scalp when the point flew over your head?
> 
> If the powers that be can fill the internet with people who claim to be libertarian spewing stuff that isn't libertarian, if they can ignore the people who created the 'Tea Party' and tell the public it's something else so loudly and so often that the Tea Party actually _turns into_ something else, why couldn't they fill a movement against militarized police full of communists and bigoted blacks and then give their own plants within that movement all the publicity?
> 
> Do we know those people any better than they know libertarians?  Or are we falling for the same fake news they fall for?  Have _you_ personally scratched below the surface of it?


What do you propose?

----------


## acptulsa

> What do you propose?


I propose that the best way to convince these people all white people aren't the same is to help them fight federally militarized police.  I propose that no one should pass up a chance to put a dent in the federal militarization of police because they might get close enough to some socialist in the process to explain to them why socialism leads to things like federally militarized police afterward.  I propose Count had a point when he said the right place to be might be on the knee next to those protestors.

----------


## The Gold Standard

> Wow... I can't believe how far from LIBERTY this forum has gone.  I remember the good ol' days when people here used to quote Ron Paul and want to be like him.  Now a good number of you want to start boot licking and feeling all good about waving a flag while bombing the $#@! out of anyone you think looks at you sideways.  Why am I here again???


Out of rep for you, but I was about to say the same thing. This thread just makes me sad. $#@! police at NFL games, I wish we could boycott paying the police at all. 

Anyone that wants to kneel or sit or pull down their pants and point their bare ass at any of the sacred symbols of the national religion, for _any_ reason whatsoever, has my full blessing to do so.

----------


## dude58677

The Olympic Channel is my favorite channel. It started right after the Rio Olympics and it was only online now it is on a television station. The station is on 24-7.

----------


## kahless

> Out of rep for you, but I was about to say the same thing. This thread just makes me sad. $#@! police at NFL games, I wish we could boycott paying the police at all. 
> 
> Anyone that wants to kneel or sit or pull down their pants and point their bare ass at any of the sacred symbols of the national religion, for _any_ reason whatsoever, has my full blessing to do so.


Perhaps you have not been paying attention what is really going on recently in this country.  Maybe you missed these posts below which summarize it well enough for me.




> It would be interesting to Jaywalk in the locker room to ask a bunch of these guys what they are protesting against.
> 
> Whether they know it or not, they are protesting white people and what is left of a free market, constitutional form of government.





> And there it is.
> 
> Whether anybody wants to admit it or not, that's the bottom line.
> 
> *And the people they have aligned themselves with, at least some of the more outspoken ones, have stated, without ambiguity, that they want me, my family, my belief system and my history exterminated.*
> 
> I have no choice but to align and pick a side now.
> 
> I hate having been forced into that position, but it is what it is.
> ...

----------


## acptulsa

> Perhaps you have not been paying attention what is really going on recently in this country.  Maybe you missed these posts below which summarize it well enough for me.


Well of course it is.  It's enough for anyone who would rather feel the Heel Of The Boot than suffer the work and inconvenience of making friends and influencing allies.

----------


## Origanalist

> And I will just add that the police bear a heavier burden because of the Titans.  They have to show up and escort them to and from games, protect the players, direct traffic at games, and clean up their messes.
> 
> They had to clean up the murder of Steve McNair.
> They had to go find Vince Young.
> They have to let them go when they drive drunk in downtown Nashville.
> They practically needed a whole precinct to babysit PacMan Jones when he was here.
> 
> And they have to stand at attention in the 90+ degree heat while the teams sit in the air conditioned locker rooms to protest police brutality.  Give me a break.


That's it, you've convinced me. I'm sending a generous donation when I get paid from tbe job I'm on .

----------


## The Gold Standard

> Perhaps you have not been paying attention what is really going on recently in this country.  Maybe you missed these posts below which summarize it well enough for me.


Good for you. None of that is even true. There is nothing left of a free market or a constitutional form of government. And I doubt the vast majority of them want anything exterminated. Sure, they want more government favors and tyranny, but so do you. 

I'm on the side I've always been on, and that's mine against the rulers. The singular action of failing to show the proper reverence to our almighty's flag is one I wholeheartedly support. I also like them shining a light on police behavior, even if most white people are too stupid to understand what it means for them.

----------


## Ender

> Well of course it is.  It's enough for anyone who would rather feel the Heel Of The Boot than suffer the work and inconvenience of making friends and influencing allies.


Exactly.

And, what's going in this country has been going on for years- not just recently.

AND- I'd plus rep you, if I could.

----------


## Madison320

> One word?  When it comes to defending Trump, you can write thousand word essays and stand on your head.
> 
> Why isn't it guilt by association?  If the powers that be can spew deplorable nonsense and call themselves libertarian while doing it, causing people to be leery of us, then why can't they divide us from the anti-fascist police movement by trying to tie it to communism?


It seems to me most of the black groups support communism:

NAACP

"The NAACP has long advocated for a minimum living wage at least 30% above the Federal poverty
level. At the State level, a minimum wage would significantly benefit lower income communities
without corresponding negative impact on businesses as studies in Ohio and New Jersey have
both demonstrated.
 The NAACP continues to vigorously support the collective bargaining rights of workers and demands
that this right be supported by the governors and legislatures of all States , . We ask that
the State legislature support the wage equality and economically beneficial ability of workers, both
public and private, to bargain collectively for their compensation.
 State governments could fund and expand transit networks throughout the state that expand opportunity
for workers to connect with employers. This includes rail, bus, and metro services that
can be created or expanded in areas where they already exist. California has embarked on a visionary
new goal to link all major cities via a rail infrastructure that will create a single labor market,
much like the tri-state area around New York. These transportation networks are critical to providing
access to jobs for many who otherwise could not access them , . Transportation projects are
also critical sources of jobs and the NAACP has consistently supported the diversity in hiring and
procurement for transportation projects .
 The NAACP supports the promise of progressive taxation, where those who are the most able bear
the greater burden for the society they benefit from. Progressive taxes, like income and property
taxes, provide more opportunity for low income families to begin to accumulate wealth. Regressive
taxation such as sales tax, fees, and fines chip away at the meager earnings of low to moderate
income families and make it even harder for them to save for housing, education, or medical
expenses. The NAACP asks that state legislatures resist the imposition of burdensome regressive
taxation and focus revenue generation on progressive solutions instead."

http://www.naacp.org/wp-content/uplo...egislation.pdf


Black Lives Matter

"Progressive taxes on income to raise revenue more equitably: ◦Raise marginal tax rates for high earners, specifically the top percentile ( the top 1% have seen their effective tax rate reduced to around 20 percent, down from 90 percent in the 1960s). Begin by raising the top marginal rate first to 50 percent and then gradually up to 80 percent.
◦Remove income caps on payroll taxes that fund social security and unemployment insurance.
◦Raise corporate income taxes, especially on large corporations and end tax deferral for foreign income of multinational corporations."


"Through a participatory process guided by the principle of racial and economic equity  create a federal working group or commission to propose a full scale overhaul on tax policy that increases racial and economic equity.
◾Develop and pass omnibus tax reform legislation in accordance with racial equity goals.
◾Expand progressivity of federal income taxes by creating more tax brackets and substantially increasing the marginal tax rate, thus producing a wider spread in rates between the lowest and highest brackets.
◾Eliminate all corporate loopholes and raise corporate income tax rates on large corporations
◾Create a wealth tax, eliminate capital gains tax breaks, and raise a tax on financial transactions.
◾Shift tax expenditures to help build the wealth of households of color."

"We seek complete open access for all to free public university, college and technical education programs (including technology, trade and agricultural) as well as full-funding for lifelong learning programs that support communities and families. We also seek the forgiveness of all federal student loans. Policies shall apply to all and should focus on outreach to communities historically denied access to education including undocumented, incarcerated and formerly incarcerated people."

"A Universal Basic Income (UBI) provides an unconditional and guaranteed livable income that would meet basic human needs while providing a floor of economic security. UBI would eliminate absolute poverty, ensuring economic security for all by mandating an income floor covering basic needs. Unlike most social welfare and social insurance programs, it is not means tested nor does it have any work requirements. All individual adults are eligible.
◾No other social or economic policy solution today would be of sufficient scale to eradicate the profound and systemic economic inequities afflicting Black communities. 
◾As patterns and norms of work change rapidly and significantly in the decades to come  no matter how profound those changes are  it is likely that Black America and other populations that are already disadvantaged will bear the brunt of whatever economic insecurity and volatility results.

*"◾A pro-rated additional amount included in a UBI for Black Americans over a specified period of time."*




https://policy.m4bl.org/platform/

----------


## Ender

This thread is quite revealing. 

If you believe in the same Marxism I do then you're good; if you believe in the same Marxism _they_ do, then you're bad.

Go figure.

----------


## kahless

> Well of course it is.  It's enough for anyone who would rather feel the Heel Of The Boot than suffer the work and inconvenience of making friends and influencing allies.





> Good for you. None of that is even true. There is nothing left of a free market or a constitutional form of government. And I doubt the vast majority of them want anything exterminated. Sure, they want more government favors and tyranny, but so do you. 
> 
> I'm on the side I've always been on, and that's mine against the rulers. The singular action of failing to show the proper reverence to our almighty's flag is one I wholeheartedly support. I also like them shining a light on police behavior, even if most white people are too stupid to understand what it means for them.


You are naive if you think they are simply "shining a light on police behavior".  This is the problem with some Libertarians, they align themselves with people that have utter disdain for their values for falsely perceived common ground.  These protesters would gladly replace the American flag with a black nationalist flag and anthem while demanding you pay them reparations.  Meanwhile while your business is getting robbed by their friends they will demand your incarceration for defending yourself.  They in turn will support using force by their armed gangs or by the very people they are protesting against.  Oh forget about defending yourself from those armed gangs since these same people will demand you register and turn over your guns.  Again by force using the same people they are supposedly protesting against.

I never looked at the flag as something to worship but rather the values and blood sacrifice for those values that it represents.  I believe the symbol has been adequately used to join tribal factions in the US and therefore keep the piece due to the majority belief in these shared values.  When a significant percentage of the population loses sight of those shared values we will then be headed towards tribalism and ethnic strife something like we have seen in the Balkans.  It won't be pretty and you can forget about rationally debating libertarian values or any form of rule of law even if it is privatized.  Since they have already proven facts do not matter to them.  It is whatever the knee jerk feeling the tribe has at the time and a belief system that is the antithesis to your Libertarian mindset.

----------


## Madison320

> This thread is quite revealing. 
> 
> If you believe in the same Marxism I do then you're good; if you believe in the same Marxism _they_ do, then you're bad.
> 
> Go figure.


What are the two types of Marxism you are talking about?

----------


## The Gold Standard

> You are naive if you think they are simply "shining a light on police behavior".  This is the problem with some Libertarians, they align themselves with people that have utter disdain for their values for falsely perceived common ground.  These protesters would gladly replace the American flag with a black nationalist flag and anthem while demanding you pay them reparations.  Meanwhile while your business is getting robbed by their friends they will demand your incarceration for defending yourself.  They in turn will support using force by their armed gangs or by the very people they are protesting against.  Oh forget about defending yourself from those armed gangs since these same people will demand you register and turn over your guns.  Again by force using the same people they are supposedly protesting against.
> 
> I never looked at the flag as something to worship but rather the values and blood sacrifice for those values that it represents.  I believe the symbol has been adequately used to join tribal factions in the US and therefore keep the piece due to the majority belief in these shared values.  When a significant percentage of the population loses sight of those shared values we will then be headed towards tribalism and ethnic strife something like we have seen in the Balkans.  It won't be pretty and you can forget about rationally debating libertarian values or any form of rule of law even if it is privatized.  Since they have already proven facts do not matter to them.  It is whatever the knee jerk feeling the tribe has at the time and a belief system that is the antithesis to your Libertarian mindset.


You also have utter disdain for my values, so you have that in common with them. As though your armed gangs and flag are any better than theirs.

And I realize that they aren't "shining a light on police behavior" to people like you. Instead of seeing what is really happening, police killing indiscriminately, almost never held to account, all you see is what you think the blacks want to happen. 

Well, save that $#@! for someone else. It's much easier to try to attack what you think might happen instead of acknowledging what really is happening with your blessing, blood on your hands.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Isn't that the 'Ron Paul is a racist because some people who support him are racists' logic?


No.

----------


## charrob

> No disagreement here. It's not good business to include partisan politics.  But the *anthem is a tradition* at sporting events. *It is non-partisan.*


I would argue:
*
 The anthem is extremely partisan; it is the epitome of 'bringing politics into the equation'. It is not tradition for players to participate in the anthem.*

*1. The anthem is extremely partisan; it is the epitome of 'bringing politics into the equation':*

Since the mid-1990's we have taken my Dad every year without exception to see professional baseball on Father's Day.  Once the U.S. invaded Iraq I could no longer stomach the anthem.  And every year since I have excused myself and gone to the bathroom during the anthem and any other patriotic bull$#@! they force on the fans.  I find it heartening to see players and staff stand up to the Orange Clown and everyone else who became so incensed when taking a knee began. The US flag does *not* represent freedom or bravery. Instead it is a symbol of a bellicose and murderous nation so impressed with itself that it claims to be fighting the good fight while raining death and destruction around the world.   The players are protesting police brutality against blacks.  Perhaps if stupid boot licking white people came out in force against police brutality, we could have a united front against it.  All you need to do is watch videos of the alt-right in Charlottesville VA. chanting "Blue Lives Matter.  Blue Lives matter.  Blue Lives matter." as cops marched past them as they were walking to the park that morning.  I'm disgusted that white people worship cops.  And I'm happy to see that, at least, one group of people in this country have said "Enough!" to this endless police brutality.  Their protests have increased body cameras and have started necessary conversations about this issue which would never have occurred with white people.  And for that I am thankful.  They may believe in other things as well; but the police in this country know the source of their protests relate to them and so they have been put on notice.  For that, small an achievement as it is, I am grateful.  

*
2. It is not tradition for players to participate in the anthem:
*
Here are excerpts from Ron Paul's video that validate this; this video  is currently on the Ron Paul Institute's website:




> Ron Paul:   Minute 5:40   
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eF9j-U4aBM&t=5m40s
> 
> The attitude has changed several years back.  []  There is something about military being always at the football game.  And a flag as big as the football field. * I understand that it hasnt been forever that they played the national anthem at football games.  It sort of came along when they have to build up this super strong support for military to justify the wars they are doing.  Thats what they are subtlety doing.*  If you can praise the military and thank you for their service, they never ask you what was your service?  Oh I went over and killed a bunch of people.  I bombed somebody over there even though they didnt do us any harm.  They never raise that question.  I didnt like what the NFL was doing  with their allegiance to the patriotism.





> Daniel McAdams:   Minute: 7:46      
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eF9j-U4aBM&t=7m46s
> 
> Daniel McAdams:  *Prior to 2009 it was very uncommon for players to be out on the field during the national anthem.  They were in their locker rooms. * But the military saw this as an opportunity to bring these guys out on the field and really have a display.  []  The military branches spent $53 million dollars on pro-sports marketing just between 2012 and 2015.  On NASCAR they spent upwards of $100 million dollars including $88 million dollars just on Dell Earnhardt Juniors car.  $88 million dollars to propagandize, to militarize, professional sports.  Ron Paul:  And that comes much closer to crony capitalism and fascism when you see that connection, but its also propaganda.  I think its war propaganda.





> Ron Paul:   Minute 15:00   
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eF9j-U4aBM&t=15m0s 
> 
> Ron Paul:  *I think the point has been made that there was a time when the ball players didnt attend the national anthem.  They stayed in the locker room.  They didnt come out until afterwards.*  Daniel McAdams:  *Its relatively new.  This whole issue, and its because of the DOD money. *



And so, if i have to pick a side, I side with those taking a knee.  I don't agree with everything they believe in, however, I am grateful that at least someone in this country has the guts to stand up to police violence and forced patriotism at these sports games.

----------


## Madison320

> And I realize that they aren't "shining a light on police behavior" to people like you. Instead of seeing what is really happening, police killing indiscriminately, almost never held to account, all you see is what you think the blacks want to happen.


It's pretty well documented what most black protestors want. 

Personally I don't like the whole "standing for the flag" thing, but it doesn't annoy me like the protests because nobody talks about it, it doesn't interfere with the game. Plus what the flag symbolizes is subjective. Maybe to you it represents war but to some it represents liberty or some other things. And people standing for the flag aren't demanding things in any obvious way. The protestors are demanding a "cure" and it's worse than the "disease".

----------


## kahless

> You also have utter disdain for my values, so you have that in common with them. As though your armed gangs and flag are any better than theirs.
> 
> And I realize that they aren't "shining a light on police behavior" to people like you. Instead of seeing what is really happening, police killing indiscriminately, almost never held to account, all you see is what you think the blacks want to happen. 
> 
> Well, save that $#@! for someone else. It's much easier to try to attack what you think might happen instead of acknowledging what really is happening with your blessing, blood on your hands.


These multi-millionaire players are actually enabling police abuse by pissing off the majority of people in this country that were waking up to it and it is truly amazing you are too blind to see that. 

With the money they have, a single player or group of players could have brought air time, organized protests, promoted policy on a website, etc. There is so much they could have done to rally people to a just cause of exposing and reducing police abuse rather than making it all about race, a Socialist platform, anti-white and what is perceived as hatred for the core values the nation was founded upon.  Issues forcing people unwillingly to line up opposing them or turn their back on them.

As for my disdain that is all in your head. I have posted instances of police abuse frequently over the years here and participated in the discussions. I am not opposed to privatization and promoted it here in the past but honestly in this imperfect world I doubt it would reduce police abuse entirely.  Maybe some areas could effectively eradicate it but due to the nature of people I am sure some would support a service provider with that as a feature.  Privatization is not going to happen anytime soon but if you and these groups really wanted to stop police abuse the focus would be in police - citizen engagement policies.  Instead of focusing on all these other issues that have nothing to do with police abuse.

----------


## Madison320

> And so, if i have to pick a side, I side with those taking a knee.  I don't agree with everything they believe in, however, I am grateful that at least someone in this country has the guts to stand up to police violence and forced patriotism at these sports games.


Would you at least agree that the groups normally associated with the protestors (Black Lives Matter, NAACP) will make things *much worse* if their ideas are carried out (stronger discrimination laws, more progressive taxation, living wage, etc)?

----------


## charrob

> Well of course it is.  It's enough for anyone who would rather feel the Heel Of The Boot than suffer the work and inconvenience of making friends and influencing allies.


Exactly.  If I could +rep you I would but the system won't let me.

----------


## ARealConservative

> Wow... I can't believe how far from LIBERTY this forum has gone.  I remember the good ol' days when people here used to quote Ron Paul and want to be like him.  Now a good number of you want to start boot licking and feeling all good about waving a flag while bombing the $#@! out of anyone you think looks at you sideways.  Why am I here again???


I discovered long ago this forum is less about restoring rights and more about bitching about how pathetic their lives are and blaming everyone but themselves for the predicament they are in.

----------


## charrob

> Would you at least agree that the groups normally associated with the protestors (Black Lives Matter, NAACP) will make things *much worse* if their ideas are carried out?



I don't agree with everything the Democracy Now news hour suggests in their daily programming.  However they have had the leaders of Black Lives Matter on their show several times in which these leaders stated that when they say "Black Lives Matter" in regards to police brutality, what they are really saying is "Black Lives Matter too".  From their standpoint and view of the criminal justice system, they feel blacks are battered, targeted, and killed by out of control cops and that white people don't care (and side with the cops) because of the color of their skin.  They said they believe all lives matter, but that black lives matter too, when it comes to out of control cops.

I find the silence of boot-licking whites to be more of a threat than any social justice claims those taking the knee allude to.  Everyone knows this movement started and continues mainly because of police brutality.  People are still currently protesting in St. Louis Missouri not "for social justice" but because yet another cop got off the hook for murdering a black man that was no threat to him.

----------


## Madison320

> I don't agree with everything the Democracy Now news hour suggests in their daily programming.  However they have had the leaders of Black Lives Matter on their show several times in which these leaders stated that when they say "Black Lives Matter" in regards to police brutality, what they are really saying is "Black Lives Matter too".  From their standpoint and view of the criminal justice system, they feel blacks are battered, targeted, and killed by out of control cops and that white people don't care because of the color of their skin.  They said they believe all lives matter, but that black lives matter too, when it comes to out of control cops.
> 
> I find the silence of boot-licking whites to be more of a threat than any social justice claims those taking the knee allude to.  Everyone knows this movement started and continues mainly because of police brutality.  People are still currently protesting in St. Louis Missouri not "for social justice" but because yet another cop got off the hook for murdering a black man that was no threat to him.


I'm sorry I added an important part to my question after you replied. The part I added is what I have a really big problem with. Not police brutality. Would you at least agree that the groups normally associated with the protestors (Black Lives Matter, NAACP) will make things much worse if their ideas are carried out *(stronger discrimination laws, more progressive taxation, living wage, etc)?*

----------


## ARealConservative

the biggest problem I have is this is rooted in racism.

We all should be fearful of police - this article explains it best:  https://mises.org/blog/why-police-ca...ect-our-rights

but NFL players are looking at this issue only through the lenses of racism.  They ignore that this is a much broader issue and by doing so, they divide us, and weaken their message

----------


## acptulsa

> I'm sorry I added an important part to my question after you replied. The part I added is what I have a really big problem with. Not police brutality. Would you at least agree that the groups normally associated with the protestors (Black Lives Matter, NAACP) will make things much worse if their ideas are carried out *(stronger discrimination laws, more progressive taxation, living wage, etc)?*


What part of, 'You can fight by their side on this one issue, and in the process explain to them how socialism will make that and other problems worse, hopefully planting some seeds in the minds of some _individuals_,' do you think is not tenable?  If some of us use our freedom of speech to stand with them on an issue where we agree with them, is that going to make their entire agenda suddenly and irrevocably come into being?  Really?

WTF?  Are we afraid to talk to people?  Because if you stand with a person on an important issue, that person is liable to listen to you no matter how brainwashed he or she is to believe they shouldn't.  Just the fact that you're by their sides is enough to convince people maybe their brainwashing isn't all that reliable.




> the biggest problem I have is this is rooted in racism.
> 
> We all should be fearful of police - this article explains it best:  https://mises.org/blog/why-police-ca...ect-our-rights
> 
> but NFL players are looking at this issue only through the lenses of racism.  They ignore that this is a much broader issue and by doing so, they divide us, and weaken their message


And by responding to it with more racism, we strengthen the hand of our most dangerous enemies (our only real enemies, despite the rather archaic opinions of some here who think otherwise) and divide the people against ourselves to the benefit of the tyrant class.

How obvious does this have to be before people can see it?

I will stand with these people and to hell with the lot of you.  You may like being divided and conquered, but I do not.  The snake on the Gadsden Flag doesn't have its tongue out so it can lick the boot that treads on it.

----------


## charrob

> I'm sorry I added an important part to my question after you replied. The part I added is what I have a really big problem with. Not police brutality. Would you at least agree that the groups normally associated with the protestors (Black Lives Matter, NAACP) will make things much worse if their ideas are carried out *(stronger discrimination laws, more progressive taxation, living wage, etc)?*


I'm sorry my answer is the same.  I find the silence of boot-licking whites to be more of a threat than any social justice claims those taking the knee allude to.  Everyone knows this movement started and continues mainly because of police brutality.  People are still currently protesting in St. Louis Missouri not "for social justice" but because yet another cop got off the hook for murdering a black man that was no threat to him.

For me, the much greater threat is the boot of government.  Change to our tax laws, living wage, etc., would take years to wind itself through our congress.  The more immediate threat (at over 1000 lives lost every year from cops in this country and many more maimed for the rest of their lives) imho is the boot of government and the incredible violence cops have perpetrated on the American people.

----------


## Madison320

> I'm sorry my answer is the same.  I find the silence of boot-licking whites to be more of a threat than any social justice claims those taking the knee allude to.  Everyone knows this movement started and continues mainly because of police brutality.  People are still currently protesting in St. Louis Missouri not "for social justice" but because yet another cop got off the hook for murdering a black man that was no threat to him.
> 
> For me, the much greater threat is the boot of government.  Change to our tax laws, living wage, etc., would take years to wind itself through our congress.  The more immediate threat (at over 1000 lives lost every year from cops in this country and many more maimed for the rest of their lives) imho is the boot of government and the incredible violence cops have perpetrated on the American people.


Don't you realize that stronger discrimination laws, more progressive taxation, living wage, etc = more government = more police brutality?

What specifically do you think should be done about the problem?

Edit:

If it was just about police brutality I wouldn't be irritated but it's not. Here is a quote from Kaepernick,  "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color."

----------


## Madison320

> I will stand with these people and to hell with the lot of you.  You may like being divided and conquered, but I do not.


So will you always choose to "stand with people" no matter who it is if you have common ground? Trump? The KKK? The police?

Would you stand with the KKK to protest discrimination laws?

----------


## charrob

> Don't you realize that stronger discrimination laws, more progressive taxation, living wage, etc = more government = more police brutality?



I think you are taking the cart before the horse.  Those issues you state are issues that will take years to wind through congress; during this time if we stand with those who kneel against police brutality we can discuss solutions with them.  Choosing to stand with the bootlickers and state worshipers (the way some here have said they would) immediately gives cops the extra incentive to be even more violent.  If white people choose to stand with those who kneel and carry signs against police brutality that gives a strong signal to cops to step back and reconsider their violence.





> What specifically do you think should be done about the problem?



Exactly what I've believed since the start of the Black Lives Matter protests.  And that would be that white people stand with them against police brutality and carry signs that are against police brutality.  And through aligning with them we can show them the statistics that cops are battering white people as much as black people.  That it is not a racial problem but instead a problem with out of control cops.  A lot of them only see what's going on in their own neighborhoods and are unaware of what the true statistics are.

----------


## Madison320

> I think you are taking the cart before the horse.  Those issues you state are issues that will take years to wind through congress; during this time if we stand with those who kneel against police brutality we can discuss solutions with them.  Choosing to stand with the bootlickers and state worshipers (the way some here have said they would) immediately gives cops the extra incentive to be even more violent.  If white people choose to stand with those who kneel and carry signs against police brutality that gives a strong signal to cops to step back and reconsider their violence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly what I've believed since the start of the Black Lives Matter protests.  And that would be that white people stand with them against police brutality and carry signs that are against police brutality.  And through aligning with them we can show them the statistics that cops are battering white people as much as black people.  That it is not a racial problem but instead a problem with out of control cops.  A lot of them only see what's going on in their own neighborhoods and are unaware of what the true statistics are.


I'm sorry again, I edited my last post after you replied, please don't hurt me. 

"If it was just about police brutality I wouldn't be irritated but it's not. Here is a quote from Kaepernick, "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color." 

As far as standing with the protestors against police brutality, that might help a tiny bit in the short run, but it won't do anything in the long run. We need more freedom/capitalism and less socialism/tyranny.

----------


## Krugminator2

> *Exactly what I've believed since the start of the Black Lives Matter protests.  And that would be that white people stand with them against police brutality and carry signs that are against police brutality.*  And through aligning with them we can show them the statistics that cops are battering white people as much as black people.  That it is not a racial problem but instead a problem with out of control cops.  A lot of them only see what's going on in their own neighborhoods and are unaware of what the true statistics are.


Absolutely not. Black Lives Matter is a domestic terrorist group that promotes Communist ideals.  It is disgusting that police don't face the same penalties for raiding the wrong houses, unleashing dogs on innocent people and general abuses. But Black Lives Matter someone how manages to make the police look less terrible. Blocking traffic is never okay. Looting is never okay. I am not for murdering protesters but a driver should not have to stop their vehicle for more than a couple of seconds for these people. And anyone who breaks into a store and steals something should back that up with their life. A store owner should not have to tolerate being robbed and have their merchandise destroyed.

No freedom loving person should support Black Lives Matter.

----------


## charrob

> I'm sorry again, I edited my last post after you replied, please don't hurt me. 
> 
> "If it was just about police brutality I wouldn't be irritated but it's not. Here is a quote from Kaepernick, "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color."


You have specifically chosen to ignore Kaepernick's entire statement; instead you sliced off the part of his statement which proves his main concern is about police violence and police brutality *not* social justice concerns.  Here is Kaepernick's *entire* statement that you alluded to *including the part which you sliced off*:




> Colin Kaepernick:  "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview after the game. "To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. *There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder*."






> As far as standing with the protestors against police brutality, that might help a tiny bit in the short run, but it won't do anything in the long run.


I disagree.  It has already put body cameras on cops in this country.  Just imagine how much more could be changed if white people would stand with those who kneel to protest police brutality and cops would see that they are truly on notice.

----------


## Krugminator2

> I'm sorry again, I edited my last post after you replied, please don't hurt me. 
> 
> "If it was just about police brutality I wouldn't be irritated but it's not. Here is a quote from Kaepernick, "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color." 
> 
> As far as standing with the protestors against police brutality, that might help a tiny bit in the short run, but it won't do anything in the long run. We need more freedom/capitalism and less socialism/tyranny.



Kaepernick went Ghana on the 4th of July to seek freedom and independence. You want to know what country I don't want America to be like? GHANA. Living on $4 a day like an animal without sewers and clean water is not freedom. Jesus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_...ation_in_Ghana

----------


## Origanalist

> Who would be run off by whom? 
> 
> I'm a tad befuddled......


By the BLM people. It's a divisive group, the leaders like it that way, the media likes it that way and as soon as someone tried to  make it about anything besides divisiveness and oppressive whitey they would be targeted and run off.

Did you read the post I was responding to? Anyway, they don't want any support that's not exclusively about black people as far as I can tell.

----------


## Madison320

> I never changed any parameters.  I would support people on the issues I agree with them on.  Here was my post:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that would be a perfectly valid statement on a sign.  Another possibility:  "Libertarians against Police Brutality".  By virtue of being Libertarian, others know we don't believe in communism and aren't racist.


Why do you keep ignoring my question about discrimination laws? You are against them aren't you?

----------


## charrob

> Why do you keep ignoring my question about discrimination laws? You are against them aren't you?



I guess I don't understand your question.  Here was the original post:




> I'll ask you the same question I asked someone previously. Would you march with the KKK in support of ending discrimination laws?



As far as I know the only thing the KKK marches for is white supremacy.  The KKK is discriminated against by leftists who try to repress their freedom of speech.  I would support them in an effort to stop this discrimination because I strongly oppose any repression of speech.  I was opposed to what the leftists did in Charlottesville; they had a right to counter-protest, but i didn't agree with it because their point was to repress the speech of others.

I'm looking at your original sentence again.  It can be read 2 ways.  If your question is am i against quotas and 'hate' crimes being distinguished from other crimes, yes I am opposed to all that.

----------


## Madison320

> I guess I don't understand your question.  Here was the original post:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I know the only thing the KKK marches for is white supremacy.  The KKK is discriminated against by leftists who try to repress their freedom of speech.  I would support them in an effort to stop this discrimination because I strongly oppose any repression of speech.  I was opposed to what the leftists did in Charlottesville; they had a right to counter-protest, but i didn't agree with it because their point was to repress the speech of others.


It's a simple question. Are you against discrimination laws?

----------


## charrob

> It's a simple question. Are you against discrimination laws?



Yes.  While you were writing this post I was adding to mine.  Yes I am against quotas and hate-crimes being distinguished from other crimes.  I think that is  what you are asking now.  i had misunderstood your original question.

----------


## Madison320

> Yes.  While you were writing this post I was adding to mine.  Yes I am against quotas and hate-crimes being distinguished from other crimes.  I think that is  what you are asking now.  i had misunderstood your original question.


Just making sure!

----------


## charrob

> Just making sure!

----------


## Dr.3D

I'm sure the NFL would be against quotas too.    Imagine affirmative action in the football league.

----------


## anaconda

The annoying thing is that the entire NFL establishment and the bulk of the fans were AGAINST Colin Kaepernick. But now that Trump has spoken, everyone is on board. Where were these weak ass hypocrites when it was a simple matter of the First Amendment? I will never watch an NFL game again. Kaepernick and everyone who took a knee with him before Trump's comments are WAY too good for this idiotic sports monopoly. And they each should call out the NFL on their vile hypocrisy.

----------


## euphemia

I'm done thinking about these overpaid weenies.  We have the Predators right across the bridge.  They line up and sing, and not all of them are Americans.  P.K. Subban is Canadian, and he sings the National Anthem with a lot of enthusiasm.  He brings joy to the game.  I hope we can get to some hockey games this year.


Ps  Rebel Poet can stop,stalking me around the boards.   You can't unsay stupid.

----------


## TheCount

> It's pretty well documented what most black protestors want.


I don't feel like I need to respond to this in any way or point out how amazingly ridiculous it is.  I'm just going to quote it and let it stand on its own.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> 


100% in agreement with Ron.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> Brian even Ron Paul and Daniel McAdams stated in today's Liberty Report that the meaning of this forced patriotism during sports games is completely related to militarism.  That was the whole point to today's Liberty Report.  Here are excerpts from today's Report:
> 
> And so, if i have to pick a side, I side with those taking a knee.  I don't agree with everything they believe in, however, I am grateful that at least someone in this country has the guts to stand up to police violence and *forced* patriotism at these sports games.  Colin Kaepernick has received death threats because of this;  if that is not forced patriotism, then what is?


I side with Ron. Not a fan of the forced militarism, but that is separate from all of the other issues. See the video above.

And what would you be siding with if you took a knee? It has changed several times. At first it was about Police shootings, then it was about oppression, then it was about a whole host of cultural Marxist goals.

And for those who haven't followed the news about all of the various people who took a knee this past weekend, including bands and kids teams, it's now all about "freedom of speech", which, as Ron (and I) have so clearly stated, it does not apply while at work. It's purely the discretion of the employer.

----------


## Swordsmyth

*DirecTV Will Allow Angry Customers To Request NFL Refunds*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-26/directv-will-allow-angry-customers-request-nfl-refunds

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> One opinion on this nonsense...


I guess this guy never heard the 3rd verse that Key wrote...

"Key was on the boat waiting to see if the British would release his  friend when he observed the bloody battle of Fort McHenry in Baltimore  on Sept. 13, 1815. America lost the battle but managed to inflict heavy  casualties on the British in the process. This inspired Key to write  The Star-Spangled Banner right then and there, but no one remembers  that he wrote a full third stanza decrying the former slaves who were  now working for the British army:
And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battles confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has washd out their foul footsteps pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
Oer the land of the free and the home of the bra_ve._In  other words, Key was saying that the blood of all the former slaves and  hirelings on the battlefield will wash away the pollution of the  British invaders. With Key still bitter that some black soldiers got the  best of him a few weeks earlier, The Star-Spangled Banner is as much a  patriotic song as it is a diss track to black people who had the  audacity to fight for their freedom."

----------


## Origanalist



----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> While I agree that air racing is an insanely fast, breathtaking sport, you *are* limited in the class of aircraft you can fly, unless I'm mistaken, I could not compete in a surplus T-38.


There are some classes such as F1, Biplane, T6 and sport but then  there's the "unlimited" class shown in the photo.  That class is "unlimited" in that you can fly anything with an internal combustion engine.  Highly modified P-51's and Bearcats have been the fastest but there are Yaks, Corsairs, P-38's and pretty much any other fast plane entered in this class.  They are affectionately called "the Bad Boys of air racing"... (there is also a jet class that allows all kinds of jets but no afterburners...)

----------


## euphemia

Kaepernick also has a white birth mother and two white parents.

----------


## Ender

This goes right here- read to the end to understand why.




> Washington Has Initiated Military Conflict With Russia
> 
> By Paul Craig Roberts
> 
> PaulCraigRoberts.org
> 
> September 27, 2017
> 
> Russia has provided evidence that Washington is collaborating with ISIS in attacks on Russian forces.
> ...

----------


## euphemia

> Why do you keep ignoring my question about discrimination laws? You are against them aren't you?


I think discrimination laws have made employers afraid to hire the right candidate for the job because they are afraid to be accused of breaking the law.  When special rights (not inalienable ones) are given to some people, it means rights are taken away from others.

Life is not all about law enforcement.  That's not freedom.  There are points in life when I am going to discriminate.  When I married my husband I discriminated against every other man on earth.  I make choices about people I do business with.  That's discrimination.  I make choices about people all the time.  Everybody does.  Life is just not that random.

----------


## Madison320

> I don't feel like I need to respond to this in any way or point out how amazingly ridiculous it is.  I'm just going to quote it and let it stand on its own.


Instead of insulting me can you post some links that prove otherwise? I've posted several links to the most well know black groups (NAACP, and BLM's umbrella group which covers BLM and about 20 other groups.)

----------


## Madison320

> I think discrimination laws have made employers afraid to hire the right candidate for the job because they are afraid to be accused of breaking the law.  When special rights (not inalienable ones) are given to some people, it means rights are taken away from others.
> 
> Life is not all about law enforcement.  That's not freedom.


The unintended consequences of government laws.

How may people die every year as a result of socialism? They don't get proper nutrition, clothing, health care thanks to socialism. They get killed in dangerous neighborhoods. I'm sure it's hundreds of times more than death by police. Not that police brutality isn't a problem.

----------


## Madison320

> 100% in agreement with Ron.


Yup.


I've always thought the free speech arguments get overly complicated. To me it's normally pretty simple. Government can't prohibit speech but private citizens can. The players can say what they want and the owners can fire them, at least in a free society. In the US the owners might not be allowed to fire the players.

----------


## acptulsa

> Instead of insulting me can you post some links that prove otherwise? I've posted several links to the most well know black groups (NAACP, and BLM's umbrella group which covers BLM and about 20 other groups.)


You spend a lot of time whining that people don't address every little, semi-relevant point you make.  Yet instead of addressing the point that the government sets up controlled groups with which they try to reframe the debate, from the Official Tea Party Organizations of a few years ago to BLM today, you just reinforce their hand by insisting that no one else should even try to reach the _individuals_ protesting and tell them to be careful what they wish for.

I know the MSM and the CIA are formidable adversaries.  But they only win total victories when good people forfeit the game.

The bad guys are winning this domestic war through collectivism.  Like their organized 'Tea Party' astroturf, BLM can't collectivize every protestor out there.  But they can make those unhappy people look collectivized, and unappetizing enough that we decide they're too far gone to reason with.  Just as the Astrotea Parties made us took too far gone to reason with minority citizens, though those few who tried found out we're really pretty reasonable.  And just like the legions who jump on threads like this, and conflate protesting NFL players with BLM even though there's no proof that more than a small handful have anything to do with BLM itself, are making it hard for many minority former regular posters to this site to stomach it for more than a few minutes at a time any more.

----------


## Ender

> You spend a lot of time whining that people don't address every little, semi-relevant point you make.  Yet instead of addressing the point that the government sets up controlled groups with which they try to reframe the debate, from the Official Tea Party Organizations of a few years ago to BLM today, you just reinforce their hand by insisting that no one else should even try to reach the _individuals_ protesting and tell them to be careful what they wish for.
> 
> I know the MSM and the CIA are formidable adversaries.  But they only win total victories when good people forfeit the game.
> 
> The bad guys are winning this domestic war through collectivism.  Like their organized 'Tea Party' astroturf, BLM can't collectivize every protestor out there.  But they can make those unhappy people look collectivized, and unappetizing enough that we decide they're too far gone to reason with.  Just as the Astrotea Parties made us took too far gone to reason with minority citizens, though those few who tried found out we're really pretty reasonable.  *And just like the legions who jump on threads like this, and conflate protesting NFL players with BLM even though there's no proof that more than a small handful have anything to do with BLM itself, are making it hard for many minority former regular posters to this site to stomach it for more than a few minutes at a time any more.*


On. The. Nose.

----------


## acptulsa

Create an organization that purports to be part of a protest movement, but is totally over the top--so over the top that it puts some potentially sympathetic people off.  Point the cameras and reporters of all the news organizations you control at that astroturf and pretend that's the whole movement.  Divide and Conquer.

They did it during Vietnam.  They did it during the Cold War.  They did it to the Tea Party.  Are some of the people in this thread an active part of this strategy, or just useful idiots?  Either way, there's a lot of dissatisfaction out there, and I'm sick of seeing it divided and conquered.  Nobody here is going to affect things all by him- or herself.

You _know_ BLM is astroturf set up by some alphabet agency, probably the CIA.  Ans what's more, the grassroots are probably figuring that out too.  Why assume the real grassroots--the people who are sick of the cops coming into their neighborhoods in MRAPs and shooting people at random--are CIA too?  Does that even make sense?  Do the CIA invent whole movements, or just try to pervert the dissatisfaction of real grassroots groups?  You know the answer to that.  If there's a whole field of dissatisfied grassroots out there, why leave the field to the CIA?  Why do them the favor?  What have they ever done for us?

----------


## helmuth_hubener

*Tucker Carlson Gets Red-Pilled By Race Matters Based Negro*

Tucker had a black lawyer on his show the other day to talk about the whole Boomerball/#kneelgate controversy.

Now, barring rumors that Tucker is actually secretly red-pilled, this should have been a massive wake-up call for Tucker.

Despite all his protestations to the contrary, the black man insisted that this was a race issue. All the arguments that Tucker made about civic identity were breezily dismissed. Tucker even came close to completely losing his cool and snapping when the black guy claimed racial solidarity with his black brethren. He literally said that it was a bond that transcended social class or how much money he made.

Tucker was apoplectic. But you live in the same neighborhood as I do! He insisted. But the black guy didnt care. He still decided to show solidarity with de brothas. He didnt condemn them as black trash and try to ingratiate himself to Tucker or try to prove that he was better than they were. He was calm as a Hindu cow as he defended his race from de cracka sitting opposite him.

Nothing could shake his confidence that his tribe was in the right, and that Whitey was in the wrong.

He even brought up the First Amendment with such self-assured confidence. He knew that a non-Whites right to criticize Whitey in the USA is sacrosanct. Tucker was left scrambling to make arguments appealing to civic nationalism that fell on dead ears. The well-educated, well-paid and well-treated black lawyer still considered himself to be a nationality within a nation.

The truth is that blacks hate America and White people deep down in their bones.

Gone are the days when platitudes about American values are enough to placate the Gibs-me-dat hordes. In fact, one wonders if those platitudes ever worked on blacks and were not actually intended for skittish Conservatives mortified of being called mean names by the Left. The harder the non-Whites push against America and White people, the harder basic conservatives wrap themselves in the symbols of the republic and bleat that they are race-blind and pro-civil rights.

It is like Antifa chanting hate has no place here and beating defenseless White old-timers. There is a cognitive disconnect at work with Antifa, just the same as with the civic nationalists. Everyone seems to be lying about what they really believe and couching their desire to finally end their opponent while chanting non-sequiturs. And in this time of universal deceit, only one group is willing to state what they believe proudly and clearly. Only the Alt-Right tells the truth about what it stands for. We want to foster the same racial solidarity that the black lawyer feels among our own people. One that stretches across zip codes and income levels. A wide, all-encompassing White Identity that will finally allow us to stand up and resist our dispossesion world-wide.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I propose that the best way to convince these people all white people aren't the same is to help them fight federally militarized police.  I propose that no one should pass up a chance to put a dent in the federal militarization of police because they might get close enough to some socialist in the process to explain to them why socialism leads to things like federally militarized police afterward.  I propose Count had a point when he said the right place to be might be on the knee next to those protestors.


I had thought the same thing for many years.

After seeing what has transpired over the last year or so, I no longer think that.

That's a damn shame, but it's my honest read and assessment of the current state of affairs.

YMMV

----------


## nobody's_hero

It's times like these I wish I had still had cable just so I could cancel it.

I just hate the hypocrisy. Forget patriotism, forget 'oppression', forget nationalism, forget Trump.

ESPN is just another outlet for brainwashing the masses to only ever hear one side. I seem to recall a certain Tim Tebow was roasted over a fire pit for kneeling and praying. He was skewered, gutted, chastised, ostracized, etc. etc. No, we can't have that, someone might get offended.

Fast forward to last Sunday and it's suddenly okay for football players to take a knee to protest white folk killing black folk at a rate *much* lower than black folk killing other black folk.

Moments later, a Steelers player goes out and stands up during the national anthem. Oh, wait, it's not okay anymore. Go read this apology in front of the cameras.

These NFL commissioner bastards don't give a $#@! about free speech. Don't kid yourselves.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> There are some classes such as F1, Biplane, T6 and sport but then  there's the "unlimited" class shown in the photo.  That class is "unlimited" in that you can fly anything with an internal combustion engine.  Highly modified P-51's and Bearcats have been the fastest but there are Yaks, Corsairs, P-38's and pretty much any other fast plane entered in this class.  They are affectionately called "the Bad Boys of air racing"... (there is also a jet class that allows all kinds of jets but no afterburners...)


Well...I guess I better get my ass to Reno then.

----------


## acptulsa

> Tucker had a black lawyer on his show the other day...


And all the forty million who share his ethnicity march in lockstep with him?

Sounds like a mighty collectivist theory.  I never imagined forty million individuals could agree on anything.

----------


## Madison320

> You spend a lot of time whining that people don't address every little, semi-relevant point you make.  Yet instead of addressing the point that the government sets up controlled groups with which they try to reframe the debate, from the Official Tea Party Organizations of a few years ago to BLM today, you just reinforce their hand by insisting that no one else should even try to reach the _individuals_ protesting and tell them to be careful what they wish for.
> 
> I know the MSM and the CIA are formidable adversaries.  But they only win total victories when good people forfeit the game.
> 
> The bad guys are winning this domestic war through collectivism.  Like their organized 'Tea Party' astroturf, BLM can't collectivize every protestor out there.  But they can make those unhappy people look collectivized, and unappetizing enough that we decide they're too far gone to reason with.  Just as the Astrotea Parties made us took too far gone to reason with minority citizens, though those few who tried found out we're really pretty reasonable.  And just like the legions who jump on threads like this, and conflate protesting NFL players with BLM even though there's no proof that more than a small handful have anything to do with BLM itself, are making it hard for many minority former regular posters to this site to stomach it for more than a few minutes at a time any more.


So would you stand with the KKK and protest discrimination laws despite the fact that you disagree with them on other points?

----------


## acptulsa

> So would you stand with the KKK and protest discrimination laws despite the fact that you disagree with them on other points?


Do you consider discrimination laws as urgent and important an issue as fascist, federalized, militarized police indiscriminately shooting citizens?  Or are you just pulling an issue out of your ass because it's pretty much the only thing of which the KKK could conceivably come down on the correct side?

Go find someone else with whom to play your little game.  I'm not even suggesting going to a BLM rally.  I try to avoid hanging with the CIA.  And, no, an NFL game is not a BLM rally.  I know that's the point you're trying to gloss over, in your tireless efforts to divide us so we can be conquered.  I never offered to help you do it.

----------


## Madison320

> Do you consider discrimination laws as urgent and important an issue as fascist, federalized, militarized police indiscriminately shooting citizens?


Maybe not discrimination laws by themselves, but combined with other similar violations of property rights, like progressive taxation, minimum wage yes, absolutely. If you really want to help black people how about**:

eliminating the welfare state
eliminating public schools
eliminating discrimination
legalizing drugs

Protesting police won't do squat.

You still haven't answered the question. Would you stand with the KKK to protest an issue you agree with them on? Free speech for example?

----------


## acptulsa

> Maybe not discrimination laws by themselves, but combined with other similar violations of property rights, like progressive taxation, minimum wage yes, absolutely. If you really want to help black people how about**:
> 
> eliminating the welfare state
> eliminating public schools
> eliminating discrimination
> legalizing drugs
> 
> Protesting police won't do squat.


LOL

You want me to do all that--even legalize drugs--without even taking one step to build coalitions and attract allies.  Not even as obvious a step as protesting federally militarized police.




> You still haven't answered the question. Would you stand with the KKK to protest an issue you agree with them on? Free speech for example?


Yet you do want me to build a coalition with the most deservedly unpopular people in the nation.  Talk about doing something that won't accomplish squat!

Why U want me 2 B stoopid?

Why are you pretending the question is even relevant?  If I am talking about going out of the way to find protestors against federally militarized police to stand with while avoiding BLM, why on Earth would I go out of my way to stand with _your_ racist, divisive, long-since-CIA-infiltrated organization?

----------


## Madison320

> LOL
> 
> You want me to do all that--even legalize drugs--without even taking one step to build coalitions and attract allies.  Not even as obvious a step as protesting federally militarized police.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet you do want me to build a coalition with the most deservedly unpopular people in the nation.  Talk about doing something that won't accomplish squat!
> 
> Why U want me 2 B stoopid?
> ...


I thought you wanted me to kneel with the NFL protestors to protest police brutality, not protest police brutality separate from them. I'd be glad to do it separately.




> "I propose that the best way to convince these people all white people aren't the same is to help them fight federally militarized police. I propose that no one should pass up a chance to put a dent in the federal militarization of police because they might get close enough to some socialist in the process to explain to them why socialism leads to things like federally militarized police afterward. I propose Count had a point when he said the right place to be might be on the knee next to those protestors. "


It's hypocritical to ask me to build a coalition with groups I don't like when you won't do the same.

----------


## Madison320

Another point is that I consider police brutality to be a symptom of the problem, not the cause. I think the root cause is socialism and trying to treat a symptom won't do any good.

----------


## acptulsa

> I thought you wanted me to kneel with the NFL protestors to protest police brutality, not protest police brutality separate from them. I'd be glad to do it separately.


What part of 'an NFL game is not a BLM rally' are you pretending not to understand?




> It's hypocritical to ask me to build a coalition with groups I don't like when you won't do the same.


I like people who are against the federal militarization of police.  And I figure the only way to conquer BLM is to divide those people from BLM.  Which cannot be done without rubbing the elbows of those people, and driving a wedge of reason between them and the government-sponsored socialist astroturf.




> Another point is that I consider police brutality to be a symptom of the problem, not the cause. I think the root cause is socialism and trying to treat a symptom won't do any good.


So, helping the grassroots see that _federal_ militarization of police is what has made the problem worse, and that _federally-sponsored_ astroturf organizations will subvert the effort to end it, won't do any good?  Or is your argument that, despite evidence to the contrary (who sometimes post on this very forum) not one in forty million blacks are capable of understanding these facts and seeing the evidence?  Because that's just another collectivist argument, and I know better than to buy it.

----------


## Madison320

> What part of 'an NFL game is not a BLM rally' are you pretending not to understand?
> 
> 
> 
> I like people who are against the federal militarization of police.  And I figure the only way to conquer BLM is to divide those people from BLM.  Which cannot be done without rubbing the elbows of those people, and driving a wedge of reason between them and the government-sponsored socialist astroturf.
> 
> 
> 
> So, helping the grassroots see that _federal_ militarization of police is what has made the problem worse, and that _federally-sponsored_ astroturf organizations will subvert the effort to end it, won't do any good?  Or is your argument that, despite evidence to the contrary (who sometimes post on this very forum) not one in forty million blacks are capable of understanding these facts and seeing the evidence?  Because that's just another collectivist argument, and I know better than to buy it.


I'm an equal opportunity hater. I hate white racist groups and black racist groups and I'm not going to "stand" with either of them.

----------


## FSP-Rebel



----------


## anaconda

> Its so much more than disrespectful to veterans and fallen solders. The flag and anthem represent EVERYONE in this country! All races, and all colors, all rich or poor. Its 1776 man! When we stared down the most powerful military in the world. In that moment *MANY became ONE*! You think there wasn't issues and disagreements then too? Many founders wanted to end slavery right then, but they also realized what they were up against, many southern states wouldn't join the war effort without assurances that slavery would remain legal in the new nation. Without the south, the war was lost! Its $#@!ing independence day man! We declare in one voice WE WILL NOT GO QUIETLY INTO THE NIGHT! We will not vanish without a fight! We're going to live on, we're going to survive! Because its worth it, its worth dying for man, this freedom that we have is unique to the world. Never before seen in human history. Freedom is the most unifying idea we have. Yes it includes the freedom to kneel but anyone that does either doesn't understand what it means or truly hates America. I think Colin Kaepernick actually does hate America. He wears shirts with Fidel Castro, he wears socks depicting cops as pigs. He raises a clinched fist in anger, dividing us all into groups he likes and groups he hates. Since this started is he ever on record saying he loves America? Because kneeling during the anthem does nothing for any cause whatsoever. If he has a cause that is important to him, maybe its perceived inequality, what has changed since he started this?? NOTHING! Because he encourages division and hate for his country nothing will ever change with a message like that.


I believe I get your satire.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> The forced patriotism is what *started*  all of this. I agree with Ron that *before 2009 players didn’t even participate in the singing of the national anthem:  they were in the locker rooms*.  That the origination of all this was pentagon money for recruitment; if that never occurred, we wouldn’t be having this conversation right now.


Sure, I agree. And taxpayer dollars should not go to professional sports teams and leagues in any way whatsoever.

I was first to say that Pittsburgh had the right idea by leaving the team in the locker room. But it's too late for that. The NFL should have done it before the season started. *

And even if you and I like the idea, it doesn't mean the that the majority of the NFL's customers will like it. It is a business, isn't it?




> There may be some football players who add Marxist goals onto that, but I suspect most are kneeling for the same reason people in St. Louis are currently protesting.  *Police violence.*


Go ahead and read Kaepernick's Saudi girlfriend's Twitter feed. She retweets all kinds of things, and Police shootings is only one reason for this "protest".

They are claiming the expanded protests are about "freedom of speech" and solidarity, not unjustified Police shootings.


* -



> The NFL should have done what the Steelers did: leave teams in the locker room during the pre-game activities. And they should have done that before the season started.
> 
> But their lack of getting ahead of this leaves them in a real bind. Hate to tell the NFL, but their customers are not all SJWs, Antifa and BLM members. Leftists are probably a minority of their customers, even though it may be the majority at ESPN.
> 
> They screwed themselves good.

----------


## Anti Federalist

*Living on Their Knees Rather Than Dying on Their Feet*
Becky Akers	

Our Canadian correspondent, David Maharaj, has a question for the drama queens-cum-SJW’s in the NFL: “Why have you not been protesting all along the death and destruction caused by the American federal government’s foreign policy?”

Indeed.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> *Living on Their Knees Rather Than Dying on Their Feet*
> Becky Akers	
> 
> Our Canadian correspondent, David Maharaj, has a question for the drama queens-cum-SJW’s in the NFL: “Why have you not been protesting all along the death and destruction caused by the American federal government’s foreign policy?”
> 
> Indeed.

----------


## euphemia

> You are the smartest person I know who supports Trump so I don't believe for one second you believe a word of that rubbish you posted.


I do believe it. During this season's NFL combine I was at lunch and heard the broadcasters talking about the prospects.  Beyond their abilities, they were talking about their physiques.  "I measured him, and ......"  What?  That sounds like something right out of the slave market.  I'm not going to lie.  I love sports--especially baseball.  I cannot believe what the system has become.  

And for the record, I am not a Trump supporter.  He was not my candidate of choice, but he is a duly elected president and there is it. I find him interesting in that the media doesn't seem to get how he operates.  I tend to be a little more objective than some.  I like to take a step back an ask what is really happening.  I don't own any Trump stuff, did not have a yard sign up, and would have voted for Rand Paul if he had given me an opportunity.  I don't think it is wise to pigeon hole Trump because he won't be forced into a box.  He has proven himself to be very amenable to listening to Rand, and that's a good thing.  We might see something next week on health care that will have Rand's fingerprints all over it.  We should be a little bit optimistic, because he is doing a lot of what we wanted him to do.  The negativity really doesn't help.  I don't want to be so blinded by my hate that I can't appreciate some of the good that comes along.

Adding:  Trump is what we got, so we have to work with him.  We can expect he will be somewhat with liberty people.  There isn't much of an agenda there compared to Obama, and he has gotten rid of most of the establishment people.  Now if he would just get rid of the remaining Obama people.

----------


## enhanced_deficit

> 


Hand/arm/knee gestures based expressions seem tobe growing  in recent years. Where does ADL stand on these raised arm gestures?





> Then there was this totally different controversy out of Afghanistan Freedom war:
> 
> *UK soldiers under investigation after they were photographed performing Nazi salute in Helmand*
> 
> 
> MPs' anger that gesture could be dismissed as 'Loyalist tribute'Picture believed to have been taken at an Army base in Helmand Province It shows serving British soldiers two of which are giving Nazi-style salutesMoD spokesman says the two soldiers seen saluting 'have been spoken to' 
> 
> *PUBLISHED:*             16:02 EST, 26 October 2013          |    *UPDATED:*             05:07 EST, 27 October 2013         
> 
> ...






*9 powerful photos of the 18 NFL players who protested during the national anthem*

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/09/powe...social-justice



*French Soccer player's suspected goal celeberation hand gesture  under investigation*







*Quenelle salute famed Black French Comic arrested for firing plastic at bailiff who came to collect "racism" fines*

 
NBA Star Tony  Parker and Dieudonne doing the Quenelle gesture from Instagram

Could such laws come to US in years ahead?
_(FRANCE 24 with AFP)_

*French comic Dieudonné detained for 'assault' on bailiff*

Latest update : 2014-01-22
*Controversial French  comic  Dieudonné M’bala M’bala  was taken into custody for several hours  on  Wednesday for allegedly  assaulting a bailiff who came to his home   earlier this week to collect  fines Dieudonné owes for racism offences.*

                 Dieudonné – who owes the state thousands of euros in    unpaid fines for offences that include racial discrimination and hate    speech – was questioned by police along with his girlfriend over the    alleged attack, his lawyer said on Wednesday.





*The Quenelle: Fascist or Fad?*
*Official Blogs from the Anti-Defamation League*

----------


## Anti Federalist

> In other words, white players are not welcome. This comes from the originator of the NFL kneel-down protest.


Exactly.

Whether anybody wants to admit it or not, *that* is what this all about.

Not cops, not Trump, not drones, not any of it.

"Whites not welcome here".

----------


## tod evans

> Exactly.
> 
> Whether anybody wants to admit it or not, *that* is what this all about.
> 
> Not cops, not Trump, not drones, not any of it.
> 
> "Whites not welcome here".


Fine by me.

I wouldn't go if I were paid.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> This was retweeted by Kaepernick's Saudi girlfriend and political adviser:

----------


## Ender

> This is the kind of response to this nonsense I expect to see on RonPaulForums.  Not all the goonerment worship I've seen in the last few years.  What a bunch of lost souls looking for a foulking cause!!  LIBERTY is the only cause worth promoting...
> T


It is also interesting to see that this peaceful protest is getting a whole lot more flack on the forum than the violent ones.

Go figure.

----------


## spudea

> All I know is if I'm not hurting anyone 
> And I don't want to stand ...for any for damn reason I choose....
> I'll be damned if someone gonna make me stand
> Be ready to fight if you think you'll force me to do what you want.
> 
> Conversation
> "I won't stand for the flag...i wont stand
> 
> Other guy
> ...





> This is the kind of response to this nonsense I expect to see on RonPaulForums.  Not all the goonerment worship I've seen in the last few years.  What a bunch of lost souls looking for a foulking cause!!  LIBERTY is the only cause worth promoting...
> T





> On. The. Nose.


Not even $#@!ing close.  Show me a single quote on this forum saying the government should force people to stand at attention during the anthem or *retract your false statement*.  Whether you agree or not, many people associate our flag and national anthem with our countries' founding, our constitution, and the liberties that we enjoy every day that sets us apart from the rest of the world.  Kneeling during the anthem is disrespectful and shameful.  Anyone that does will be criticized as not being socially acceptable, as a consequence of their actions.

If you want to kneel during the anthem you are free to do so.  It seems like YOU are the one asking for government force to silence anyone speaking against your actions.

This form of protest is the stupidest idea I've ever seen and the NFL will suffer gravely because of it.

----------


## Gumba of Liberty

I just think its funny how half the country thinks they're resisting oppression by kneeling while the other half thinks that standing is an act of observance.




Up is down and black is white. Just another day in Bizarro World.

----------


## Ender

> Not even $#@!ing close.  Show me a single quote on this forum saying the government should force people to stand at attention during the anthem or *retract your false statement*.  Whether you agree or not, many people associate our flag and national anthem with our countries' founding, our constitution, and the liberties that we enjoy every day that sets us apart from the rest of the world.  Kneeling during the anthem is disrespectful and shameful.  Anyone that does will be criticized as not being socially acceptable, as a consequence of their actions.
> 
> If you want to kneel during the anthem you are free to do so.  It seems like YOU are the one asking for government force to silence anyone speaking against your actions.
> 
> This form of protest is the stupidest idea I've ever seen and the NFL will suffer gravely because of it.


I'm not asking the gov to do anything.

YOU are the worshiper of the almighty state for all the unconstitutional wars, while at the same timing using the constitution to uphold your POV. These protests are about the militarization of the police state. 

As far as a consequence of actions, shall we all forget the REAL history of the US and the many wars & murders done in the name of "spreading democracy"?

----------


## Ender

And oh waaaaaah. Now you are neg repping me for not supporting your form of "spreading democracy." 

I'll accept that.

----------


## spudea

> I'm not asking the gov to do anything.


Neg reps for false statements.  Still haven't shown me a quote on this forum supporting the use of force to make people stand, when you said that was "on the nose".




> YOU are the worshiper of the almighty state for all the unconstitutional wars


Another false statement.  Don't put that evil on me, show quote supporting unconstitutional wars or retract.




> These protests are about the militarization of the police state.


Another false statement.  I haven't seen anyone doing these protests has ever mentioned militarization of the police state.  Kaepernick's view of oppression is drastically flawed.  He should be condemned for advocating race wars.

----------


## Ender

> Neg reps for false statements.  Still haven't shown me a quote on this forum supporting the use of force to make people stand, when you said that was "on the nose".
> 
> 
> 
> Another false statement.  Don't put that evil on me, show quote supporting unconstitutional wars or retract.
> 
> 
> 
> Another false statement.  I haven't seen anyone doing these protests has ever mentioned militarization of the police state.  Kaepernick's view of oppression is drastically flawed.  He should be condemned for advocating race wars.
> ...


Why is this all so personal to you? No statements made were about YOU. Good dialog is much more effective than neg reps, name-calling, and anger- especially over a peaceful protest.

Again:




> *Patriotism Is A Two-Edged Sword*
> 
> By Paul Craig Roberts
> 
> PaulCraigRoberts.org
> 
> September 29, 2017
> 
> *I sometimes wonder if America’s greatest threat is the population’s hyper-patriotism. The bulk of the population is now at work shutting down the NFL players’ First Amendment rights, and none of the incensed censors are capable of understanding that it is they, and not the NFL players, who are attacking the U.S. Constitution. We have been through all this flag business before, and federal courts have ruled for the protesters who burnt flags, wore them on their clothes, whatever. Yet, here we go again.*
> ...


This whole thing is just playing into the hands of TPTB and taking everyone's eye off of more important matters.

JMHPO

----------


## Origanalist

> Why is this all so personal to you? No statements made were about YOU. Good dialog is much more effective than neg reps, name-calling, and anger- especially over a peaceful protest.
> 
> Again:
> 
> 
> 
> This whole thing is just playing into the hands of TPTB and taking everyone's eye off of more important matters.
> 
> JMHPO


+ rep, should cover any damage from butthurt neg reppers.

----------


## katsung47

Trump hijacks power of US president by the help of Russians. 


Now he hijacks the flag to pressure dissenters. He is not president for most Americans.

----------


## goldenequity



----------


## Swordsmyth

*NBA Orders Players To Stand For The National Anthem*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-30/nba-orders-players-stand-national-anthem

----------


## Swordsmyth

*Movement to Boycott NFL November 12 Growing*https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/item/27024-movement-to-boycott-nfl-november-12-growing

----------


## Raginfridus

Another problem is that we're still talking about them...

----------


## helmuth_hubener

*The American flag is a symbol of freedom.*

At the same time, yes, it is a figurative manifestation of statism and I totally get those who are saying "bravo to anyone refusing to salute/stand for/pledge allegiance to it."

Am I the only one that can see both sides of this?

----------


## goldenequity



----------


## goldenequity

Stoking the fires... agent Lemon spewing coast to coast

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> Not even $#@!ing close.  Show me a single quote on this forum saying the government should force people to stand at attention during the anthem or *retract your false statement*.  Whether you agree or not, many people associate our flag and national anthem with our countries' founding, our constitution, and the liberties that we enjoy every day that sets us apart from the rest of the world.  Kneeling during the anthem is disrespectful and shameful.  Anyone that does will be criticized as not being socially acceptable, as a consequence of their actions.
> 
> If you want to kneel during the anthem you are free to do so.  It seems like YOU are the one asking for government force to silence anyone speaking against your actions.
> 
> This form of protest is the stupidest idea I've ever seen and the NFL will suffer gravely because of it.


There is a conflict at play here, as so rationally discussed by Ron Paul in a couple of his videos on the subject. On the one side, there is the private property, business, employer rights side of the story, and on the other, there is the right to protest side.

Ron falls on the private property side, but some see that as forced submission to the state, especially due to government funding of sports, which Ron does address and does not support.

There is also a huge gap on what the "protest" is really is trying to accomplish. Both sides read into it exactly what they want. The truth is that the "reasoning" for this protest has changed so many times, there is no one answer. Trying to justify or condemn the "protest" based upon the goal is simply futile.

The biggest picture view is that this is cheap politicking by Trump going against the socialist/communist strategy for overthrow of the nation. A lot to be opposed to, but nothing to support.

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> Not even $#@!ing close.  Show me a single quote on this forum saying the government should force people to stand at attention during the anthem or *retract your false statement*.  Whether you agree or not, many people associate our flag and national anthem with our countries' founding, our constitution, and the liberties that we enjoy every day that sets us apart from the rest of the world.  Kneeling during the anthem is disrespectful and shameful.  Anyone that does will be criticized as not being socially acceptable, as a consequence of their actions.
> 
> If you want to kneel during the anthem you are free to do so.  It seems like YOU are the one asking for government force to silence anyone speaking against your actions.
> 
> This form of protest is the stupidest idea I've ever seen and the NFL will suffer gravely because of it.


Ya but people can be "disrespectful" to a piece of cloth all they want.  It USED to be a "free country" (not so much anymore).  No one has any duty to "respect" your holy cloth or DO anything.  That's freedom (something you claim people have died for).  Seems so strange when people get their panties in a wad over people actually EXERCISING freedom and then you tell them to stop it because their exercise of freedom is hurting your sacred cloth.  Don't you know that inanimate objects cannot feel?  Neither can they "deserve" respect.  If you have an IDEA (such as liberty) THAT may be worthy of respect (or not).  Even then, if someone chooses to NOT respect your idea there's nothing you can (or should) do about it.

Getting angry about such is a colossal waste of energy...

----------


## goldenequity

As we go headlong into this absurd, divisive, choreographed insanity
I'm struck by this stark sober contrast of a nation
soberly reminding themselves of their own insanity and horrors
brought upon them by their own government.





In the forest near old Butovo, about 5 kilometers south of the Moscow Ring Road, lies the largest burial place for victims of Stalin's purges in the whole Moscow region, a site of mass executions. At the small plot of land known as the Butovsky Shooting Range or "Butovsky Poligon," about 20,760 people were executed between August 1937 and October 1938. Among this were men and women, the old and the young, people from 70 different nationalities and many faiths and social classes.

Seventy-seven years ago, in August 1937, the head of the NKVD ordered a high fence be erected around a remote five-hectare patch of oak forest glade. The construction was largely ignored by locals, who were told the site would be a shooting range, a rumor that frequent gunfire seemed to verify.

More than 20,000 people were executed at the site in a little more than a year — an average of about 50 people per day. The diversity of those executed was stunning, including South African communists, Polish nationalists, Germans, Hindus, Chinese, Tatars and Jews. However, the site "specialized" in executions of Orthodox Christian clergy, targeted by the Soviet Union as supposedly counter-revolutionary elements in their atheist state.

About 1,000 of the victims were clergy from the Russian Orthodox Church, and about 300 people from that number have since been beatified as saints. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Russian Orthodox Church began commemorating the site, establishing a small wooden church on the site in 1996 and a larger church that has been active since 2007. Since the year 2000, the patriarch has led an annual service in the church of the martyrs to commemorate those killed in Butovo.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Ya but people can be "disrespectful" to a piece of cloth all they want.  It USED to be a "free country" (not so much anymore).  No one has any duty to "respect" your holy cloth or DO anything.  That's freedom (something you claim people have died for).  Seems so strange when people get their panties in a wad over people actually EXERCISING freedom and then you tell them to stop it because their exercise of freedom is hurting your sacred cloth.  Don't you know that inanimate objects cannot feel?  Neither can they "deserve" respect.  If you have an IDEA (such as liberty) THAT may be worthy of respect (or not).  Even then, if someone chooses to NOT respect your idea there's nothing you can (or should) do about it.
> 
> Getting angry about such is a colossal waste of energy...


They can also suffer the consequences of offending those who love their country, we are also free to protest their protest.

----------


## ThePaleoLibertarian

Once again, the usual suspects on this site prove just how inept they are when it comes to political strategy.

"Hey, you know those overpaid, 85 IQ-equipped, drug-addled, brain-damaged, woman-beating degenerates whose popularity is currently in freefall for not understanding the importance of symbolism? LET'S SIDE WITH THEM! We understand symbolism _even less_ than they do! BLM and libertarians are natural allies! After all, we both brainlessly bleat "$#@! da po-lees!" and have deranged fantasies about totalitarian oppression in a Western country! A match made in heaven!"

Good lord didn't Rothbard's excursion into fruitlessly attempting to convert leftists teach you_ anything?_ Of course it didn't, look who I'm talking to.

----------


## Raginfridus

> seen any sports lately?
> how bout them sports?
> d'you fantasy sports?

----------


## Raginfridus



----------


## Raginfridus



----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> They can also suffer the consequences of offending those who love their country, we are also free to protest their protest.


  NOW you're getting down to reality!!  Yes, one can exert violence when they are offended.  It's a very real possibility when you consider the brutal reality -- "Man" is a violent dangerous animal.  If you "offend" his beliefs (no matter how silly) he can become butthurt and punch you.  If that's your strategy for "promoting" your ideas it's an old strategy but a popular one...

----------


## TheCount

> Once again, the usual suspects on this site prove just how inept they are when it comes to political strategy.
> 
> "Hey, you know those overpaid, 85 IQ-equipped, drug-addled, brain-damaged, woman-beating degenerates whose popularity is currently in freefall for not understanding the importance of symbolism? LET'S SIDE WITH THEM! We understand symbolism _even less_ than they do! BLM and libertarians are natural allies! After all, we both brainlessly bleat "$#@! da po-lees!" and have deranged fantasies about totalitarian oppression in a Western country! A match made in heaven!"
> 
> Good lord didn't Rothbard's excursion into fruitlessly attempting to convert leftists teach you_ anything?_ Of course it didn't, look who I'm talking to.


1.  Liberty is unpopular.  The popularity of the opinion or protest is irrelevant.

2.  If 85 iq degenerates are right then they're right.  A bunch of ad hominem attacks won't change that.


But of course you won't agree, look who I'm talking to.  We all know the _real_ reason you oppose siding with them.

----------


## nikcers

> 1.  Liberty is unpopular.

----------


## Origanalist

Ron Paul: We Are “Seeing the Emergence of ‘Snowflakes’ on the Right “

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/ron...lakes-america/

----------


## euphemia

> It is also interesting to see that this peaceful protest is getting a whole lot more flack on the forum than the violent ones.
> 
> Go figure.


The violent protests kind of speak for themselves.  I don't think either of the Dr. Pauls would ever advocate violence as a way to protest.  I can respond to violent or nonviolent protests in an appropriate way.  Turning off a game and getting rid of gear harms nobody and should not upset anyone.

I know DirecTV is going to have something to say about the thousands of dollars in refunds they have issued for their NFL Sunday Ticket packages.  Game sponsors are likely making their voices heard as well.

----------


## Ender

> The violent protests kind of speak for themselves.  I don't think either of the Dr. Pauls would ever advocate violence as a way to protest.


I wasn't talking about the Pauls.

----------


## euphemia

> I wasn't talking about the Pauls.


Maybe not, but many of us did have an opinion about recent violent protests.  I had an opinion back in the 60s with violent protests and I had an opinion about the Rodney King riots.  I consder violent protest to be a form of terrorism.  I don't want to live my life afraid of what some group threatens.

----------


## Origanalist

> Maybe not, but many of us did have an opinion about recent violent protests.  I had an opinion back in the 60s with violent protests and I had an opinion about the Rodney King riots.  I consder violent protest to be a form of terrorism.  I don't want to live my life afraid of what some group threatens.


I agree, I really wish the government would quit threatening me.

----------


## Ender

> Maybe not, but many of us did have an opinion about recent violent protests.  I had an opinion back in the 60s with violent protests and I had an opinion about the Rodney King riots.  I consder violent protest to be a form of terrorism.  I don't want to live my life afraid of what some group threatens.


My statement was about so much more ballyhooing over a "knee protest" than on the violent protests a couple of weeks ago.

----------


## tod evans

> Maybe not, but many of us did have an opinion about recent violent protests.  I had an opinion back in the 60s with violent protests and I had an opinion about the Rodney King riots.  I consder violent protest to be a form of terrorism.  I don't want to live my life afraid of what some group threatens.


Government permits such violence by stopping those who would end violence the moment it began...

Police and courts are not the solution, they are the problem.

----------


## Natural Citizen

> Maybe not, but many of us did have an opinion about recent violent protests.  I had an opinion back in the 60s with violent protests and I had an opinion about the Rodney King riots.  I consder violent protest to be a form of terrorism.  I don't want to live my life afraid of what some group threatens.


By that model, the founders would hve been terrorists.

----------


## tod evans

> By that model, the founders would hve been terrorists.


The founders stood up for their own damn selves, they didn't run crying to some "higher authority" to do it for them....

----------


## Natural Citizen

> The founders stood up for their own damn selves, they didn't run crying to some "higher authority" to do it for them....


zactly

----------


## phill4paul

No protest at the Panther/Patriots game today. Just a damn good game.

----------


## euphemia

> By that model, the founders would hve been terrorists.


I thought that would come up when I posted.  I think the founders faced an entirely different circumstance.  They left everything and traveled across an ocean, then started with nothing to form their own communities and whatnot.  That is not what today's protesters faced.  They may have faced ugly behavior from others, but that does not separate them into some kind of special group.  I don't think anyone arrives at adulthood without that experience.  Professional athletes are actually part of the privileged class, and if anything, we should tell them to check their sports privilege before they start protesting mistreatment on my tax dollar.

----------


## euphemia

> The founders stood up for their own damn selves, they didn't run crying to some "higher authority" to do it for them....


Precisely.  They did not really protest anything until the Boston Tea Party, and they made some choices to form a brand new nation and govenrment.  I think they would be disappointed in the anthem kneelers.

I would kind of like to form protests to take away tax dollars from sports stadiums, and I would really, really like to form a group to travel around to college campuses to take back free speech.  Most of those spoiled little people are going to school on our dollars.

----------


## Natural Citizen

> I thought that would come up when I posted.  I think the founders faced an entirely different circumstance.  They left everything and traveled across an ocean, then started with nothing to form their own communities and whatnot.  That is not what today's protesters faced.  They may have faced ugly behavior from others, but that does not separate them into some kind of special group.  I don't think anyone arrives at adulthood without that experience.  Professional athletes are actually part of the privileged class, and if anything, we should tell them to check their sports privilege before they start protesting mistreatment on my tax dollar.


Well, I can agree with that.

I just don't like that word 'terrorism' being offered up so casually these days. These days, I can fart on the train and be labeled a terrorist, unfortunately. The reason for that, I think, is because people all of a sudden tend to have the view that they have a right to have their feelings addressed.

----------


## Ender

> I thought that would come up when I posted.  I think the founders faced an entirely different circumstance.  They left everything and traveled across an ocean, then started with nothing to form their own communities and whatnot.  That is not what today's protesters faced.  They may have faced ugly behavior from others, but that does not separate them into some kind of special group.  I don't think anyone arrives at adulthood without that experience.  Professional athletes are actually part of the privileged class, and if anything, we should tell them to check their sports privilege before they start protesting mistreatment on my tax dollar.


Well, to be honest, your "tax dollar" is unconstitutional and we should all be protesting that. Plus, protesting peacefully against unconstitutional militarized police is fine with me. AND, the politicalization of the teams really took a turn after 911 and spreading democracy became a national institution. Before then, the players never came out until after the flag stuff. 

The kneelers haven't hurt or destroyed anything, as of yet.

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> Well, to be honest, your "tax dollar" is unconstitutional and we should all be protesting that. Plus, protesting peacefully against unconstitutional militarized police is fine with me. AND, the politicalization of the teams really took a turn after 911 and spreading democracy became a national institution. Before then, the players never came out until after the flag stuff. 
> 
> The kneelers haven't hurt or destroyed anything, as of yet.


#TaxationIsTheft...

----------


## euphemia

> My statement was about so much more ballyhooing over a "knee protest" than on the violent protests a couple of weeks ago.


I also think the so-called victory celebrations when teams win championships are horrid.  Under any other circumstance they would be called rioting.

----------


## enhanced_deficit

By                         Jonathan Berr                                                                                     MoneyWatch                      September 29, 2017, 2:13 PM

*NFL national anthem protest denting ticket sales*

                                            Operators of two of the  largest U.S. ticket marketplaces say they are seeing declines in orders  for NFL games amid festering controversy over the national anthem. 
NFL  ticket sales at TickPick slumped 17.9 percent this week compared  with  the prior week, their steepest decline since 2014, while *sales at  TicketCity plunged 31 percent*.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nfl-nat...-ticket-sales/


*NFL Boycott Declared For Veterans Day Weekend, Nearly 75,000 Vow Support*

                         September 27, 2017 2:52 PM                                   
                   PITTSBURGH (KDKA)   Tens of thousands upset over NFL  players taking a  knee during the national anthem are planning a  boycott of the NFL. 
A Facebook group now has more than 70,000 members calling for a boycott of all NFL games on Veterans Day weekend, Nov. 12-13. 
 The group is encouraging people to avoid watching football on both Sunday and Monday to show support for veterans. 
 The Facebook event states: We will be not be watching or listening  to  NFL games on November 12th in solidarity with veterans around the   country, as football players have continued to disrespect the national   anthem, the American flag, and everything our nation stands for.



*Area restaurant boycotting NFL games draws large crowd*


       Sept. 29, 2017 


            Beef OBradys file photo 
  The owner of Beef OBradys  restaurant in Beavercreek said he had a large crowd Thursday night  following his declaration that he will not air NFL games while players  protest during the playing of the national anthem.
     The response was just remarkable last night. We had people  coming  in that had never been to our restaurant, said Beef OBradys  owner  Bill DeFries, who estimated the eatery did three times the  business it  normally does on a Thursday night.





Related

*As another NFL Sunday begins, the anthem protest debate continues in Baltimore*
By Mark Maske and Dave Sheinin  October 1 

 Gail  Heiss and Micheal Goldberg hold up signs urging players to stand  up  before the Ravens and Steelers played in Baltimore. (AP Photo/Alex   Brandon)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-in-baltimore/

----------


## Swordsmyth

> NOW you're getting down to reality!!  Yes, one can exert violence when they are offended.  It's a very real possibility when you consider the brutal reality -- "Man" is a violent dangerous animal.  If you "offend" his beliefs (no matter how silly) he can become butthurt and punch you.  If that's your strategy for "promoting" your ideas it's an old strategy but a popular one...


Who said anything about violence? We are talking about criticism, protests and boycotts.

----------


## ThePaleoLibertarian

> 1. Liberty is unpopular.


Yes, it is. Very unpopular.




> The popularity of the opinion or protest is irrelevant.


Not if you're a political movement, hoping to get an agenda across. 




> 2. If 85 iq degenerates are right then they're right. A bunch of ad hominem attacks won't change that.


But they're not right. They're a bunch of overpaid leftist pawns with a persecution complex. And it's not an ad hominem, but I'm not surprised you're unaware of the distinction between an insult and an actual fallacy. It would be ad-hominem if I said that they're degenerates with an IQ of 85, therefore they're wrong.





> But of course you won't agree, look who I'm talking to. We all know the _real_ reason you oppose siding with them.


Well let's see:

1. It's terrible optics that will make the movement even less popular than it already is
2. It's leftism and leftism is inherently hostile to anything remotely libertarian or pro-civilization
3. The libertarian movement being a pawn of the left is not only a bad idea, it's a repeated proven failure (just ask Reason)

Need I go on? I don't know why idiots like you think I'm trying to hide some racial point. When have I ever been shy about my views on race? Immigration, for example, is a race issue, and I've never tried to obfuscate my opinions in that regard. If an issue is racial, I've never been afraid to say it.

----------


## TheCount

> But they're not right. They're a bunch of overpaid leftist pawns with a persecution complex.


I'm not sure if you're aware that that doesn't make them not right.

(Ad hominem, btw)




> And it's not an ad hominem


I'm not certain that you should be defaming anyone else's intelligence...




> It would be ad-hominem if I said that they're degenerates with an IQ of 85, therefore they're wrong.


Let me scroll up to read the rest of the argument that you presented...



... Yep, nothing.





> Well let's see:
> 
> 1. It's terrible optics that will make the movement even less popular than it already is
> *2. It's leftism and leftism is inherently hostile to anything remotely libertarian or pro-civilization*
> 3. The libertarian movement being a pawn of the left is not only a bad idea, it's a repeated proven failure (just ask Reason)


Still nothing, besides another ad hominem.  I bolded it for you in case you aren't sure which part was an ad hominem.




> I don't know why idiots like you think I'm trying to hide some racial point.


I didn't say that you were hiding a racial point.

Seems like you did, though.

----------


## helmuth_hubener

https://www.menofthewest.net/point-and-shriek/

Point and Shriek

It’s time to steal a tactic from the Left.

It is no good arguing with SJWs, because they do not argue in good faith. There is no point in appealing to their minds, for there are no facts that will break them from the virtue spiral in which they have immersed themselves. The only thing to do with them is to mock them, to point out their hypocrisy as loudly and publicly as possible. As Saul Alinsky explained in Rules for Radicals, ridicule is mankind’s most potent weapon. They want attention? Give it to them, squared, cubed, and loaded with gee juice.

The primary objective of the mockery is not to break the probably-mentally-ill object of your scorn. The primary objective is to drive a wedge between the leftist and normal people. It is to get the great unengaged middle to say, “These people are obviously insane and I’m not going to listen to them anymore.”  It is to inoculate everyday Americans against the cancer that is social justice.

When SJWs overstep – and they must, for by their nature they must continue to out-signal their contemporaries – swat them down. Whether you watch the NFL or not (I haven’t in years), it’s critical to punch back, using the conservative, veteran, male fan base of the NFL to do so.  Millions of Americans are on our side in this. They simply do not know they are on any side yet. Let them know.

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> Who said anything about violence? We are talking about criticism, protests and boycotts.


Great!! Do all of those you want (and see how effective it is).  Just don't try to "legislate" away my rights...

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Great!! Do all of those you want (and see how effective it is).  Just don't try to "legislate" away my rights...


If anyone proposes that I will oppose it.

----------


## Identity

> #TaxationIsTheft...


#StateIsAPresupposedSocialContractAndMoreAnalagous  ToAPlatonicFormThanApurelyNominalistMentalConstruc  t

Oof.. that what a mouthful.




> It is no good arguing with SJWs, because they do not argue in good faith. There is no point in appealing to their minds, for there are no facts that will break them from the virtue spiral in which they have immersed themselves. The only thing to do with them is to mock them, to point out their hypocrisy as loudly and publicly as possible.




Problem is that just about every major institution bows down to SJWs & sympathizers. Corporations, State officials, media outlets, religious authorities, and now sports teams. Over the past several months we've seen an unprecedented amount of censorship, wicked collaboration between private entities, and suppression by these powers; as was the case of GAB. The NFL boycott seems so small in the grand scheme of things where the populace is largely apathetic.

----------


## Swordsmyth

*Fox Sports: We Will No Longer Air National Anthem Before NFL Games*https://www.yahoo.com/news/fox-sports-no-longer-air-093323656.html

----------


## jmdrake

> I find many things annoying about this whole thing, but one that stands out to me:
> 
> If I were to attempt something similar, I would get fired.
> 
> All across the corporate world, step out of line in the slightest way and you will be pounding the pavement before you know what happened to you.


Ummmm.....Colin Kaepernick did get fired.  And then Trump made a total jackass of himself and called out the entire NFL and made Colin Kaepernick an overnight hero.  Now I don't know your profession.  But if all of the best in your profession across an entire industry said "Fvck it.  We're not budging".....well I doubt they'd all get fired.  Imagine the helluva team an NFL owner would have if the rest of the league fired all of the players standing (well...kneeling) with Kaepernick and one owner broke ranks and said "Screw the flag!  Come play for us!"

Now this is what pisses me off.  While Obama was president, "patriots" were flying the flag upside down in protest.  So....what's the difference?  Oh...I know...I know...the flag upside down is a "sign of distress."  Well...this country is in distress.  And police shootings of unarmed people (and puppies) is a major cause of distress.  And yes blacks are disproportionately being shot despite the lies Stefan Molyneux is spewing on the subject.  That's because blacks are disproportionately stopped by police.  Ron Paul had it right.  Blacks use drugs at the same rate as whites but are far more likely to get arrested, convicted and spend longer in prison.  So it stands to reason that blacks would be getting shot more.  It's a tragedy when some white person, like the Aussie woman, gets shot too.  Whites should go to "black lives matter" protests, hold up her picture and say "Her life matters too."  Oh but no.  The white reaction is "Blue lives matter."  Ummmm.....okay.  I never saw a blue person in my life (well, except for the blue man group) but okay.

----------


## jmdrake

> I thought that would come up when I posted.  I think the founders faced an entirely different circumstance.  They left everything and traveled across an ocean, then started with nothing to form their own communities and whatnot.  That is not what today's protesters faced.  They may have faced ugly behavior from others, but that does not separate them into some kind of special group.  I don't think anyone arrives at adulthood without that experience.  Professional athletes are actually part of the privileged class, and if anything, we should tell them to check their sports privilege before they start protesting mistreatment on my tax dollar.


You realize that the athletes who are protesting are doing it *because* they feel solidarity with people who are *not* privileged?  Kaepernick basically got fired after protesting.  A small handful (like 5?) NFL players protested with him.  Donald Trump decided to be the dumbass that he is and turned a marginalized fired player into a worldwide cause.  The "privileged class" decided to take a knee for the underprivileged class.  The only thing wrong with the "black lives matter" movement is that it's not just black people getting shot for no reason by police.  It's white people.  It's puppies.  It could be you or your child next.  Seriously.  You call in a suspected rape?  You walk up to the police car to give your report?  The militarized police officer freaks out because he hears a bank?  And you could be shot.  And the police officer could get off because he claimed he was "afraid."  That's some crap.  That should not exist in a country that claims to be the "land of the free and the home of the brave."  It should not be tolerated among a group of people who claim to "protect and serve."  And whatever it takes for this to be seen as unacceptable should happen.

----------


## jmdrake

> The NFL players that are protesting over unfair treatment of blacks are annoying to me for a couple reasons:
> 
> 1. Many of their "solutions" like more wealth distribution and tighter enforcement of discrimination laws are only going to make the problem much worse.


Don't conflate everyone who protests police brutality with whatever agenda the so called "leaders" of black lives matter put on the internet.

----------


## jmdrake

> Not if you were black...


 Colin Kaepernick got fired.  Trump may help him get rehired though.

----------


## jmdrake

> Here in Nashville that idea is absurd.  Nashville had the first black university.  Nashville has a university founded on the idea of strengthening common principles (with a black head football coach).  Nashville has a strong black tradition and was very active in civil rights from the start. 
> 
> The Titans stayed in the locker room today.  I put the few Titans items I own in a bag and they are now at Goodwill.  I have also fired off a letter to the CEO of the Titans saying I am done with football.  Tomorrow I plan to write the FOP and suggest they come down with blue flu next home game and I will also write my councilwoman and state legislator demanding that they end funding for the stadium and infruastructure supporting it.
> 
> So says the fat little grandma.


This could be your grandson.

----------


## Swordsmyth

*Wall Street vets are threatening to pull the plug on the NFL*Many brokers and bankers — some of whom are also military veterans —  have threatened to pull the plug on pro football for not reining in  players who are using the American national anthem as an opportunity to  protest by taking the knee. 
 And as the protests gather steam this weekend, some vets of the  financial markets — a huge employer of former US military service  personnel, have unleashed a barrage of criticism in response and could  be counted among the estimated 2 million fewer viewers over the first  three weeks of the season.
 The NFL protests should stop, these Street vets say — or else.
 “I am going to be flat-out honest — I think the players should be  standing up for the anthem. They can lock arms all right, but they  shouldn’t be bringing politics into the sport like this,” Chris  McCormick, a sales trader at a derivatives broker in New York, told The  Post.


The NFL is starting to feel the financial whiplash from Wall Street.  Some of the highest rollers at the games these days are deal-makers and  stock traders who unwind in the best stadium suites, sponsor the NFL and  bankroll the franchise by buying blocks of season tickets. 
 “Of course we should respect the American flag,” said John O’Shea,  New York-based chairman of Global Alliance Securities, who has season  tickets to the Giants.
 O’Shea did not dispute a player’s constitutional right to protest and he hasn’t shredded his season tickets just yet. 
 But McCormick is having none of it. “I am now watching way less games than I ever had,” he said.
 And other Street vets are not holding back either.
 “Dragging the national anthem into an anti-President Trump message is  very disrespectful to our military veterans,” said financial expert  Hughey Newsome, a consultant for 
 MorganFranklin, referring to the firestorm that erupted when the  president publicly attacked NFL national anthem protests more than a  week ago. “The protests are doing a humongous disservice to those who  have died in defense of this land, and in defense of everything we stand  for,” Newsome added.
 Newsome, an African-American, is a member of the influential Project  21 black leadership network, sponsored by the National Center for Public  Policy Research. 
 The conservative coalition says NFL players “kneel and protest at  their peril.” And it warns of economic consequences if the protests  don’t end — noting how anger over the protests has trickled down to  businesses that make money through their NFL affiliation. 
 Project 21 said sponsor boycotts are also being organized. “Just as  people have a right to express their First Amendment concerns, other  people have a right to vote with their dollars,” Newsome said.
 On Thursday, Allan Jones, founder of Check Into Cash, said that he is  pulling all commercials for his lending companies during NFL games for  the rest of the season. 

More at: http://nypost.com/2017/10/01/wall-st...ug-on-the-nfl/

----------


## juleswin

> Colin Kaepernick got fired.  Trump may help him get rehired though.


This is the very important part most people are missing about this story and that is the fact Colin K to the surprise of many people on this site who think blackness gives one immunity from getting fired, he did get fired for protesting the anthem and he most likely would never be hired ever again in the NFL.

----------


## Dark_Horse_Rider

> You realize that the athletes who are protesting are doing it *because* they feel solidarity with people who are *not* privileged?  Kaepernick basically got fired after protesting.  A small handful (like 5?) NFL players protested with him.  Donald Trump decided to be the dumbass that he is and turned a marginalized fired player into a worldwide cause.  The "privileged class" decided to take a knee for the underprivileged class.  The only thing wrong with the "black lives matter" movement is that it's not just black people getting shot for no reason by police.  It's white people.  It's puppies.  It could be you or your child next.  Seriously.  You call in a suspected rape?  You walk up to the police car to give your report?  The militarized police officer freaks out because he hears a bank?  And you could be shot.  And the police officer could get off because he claimed he was "afraid."  That's some crap.  That should not exist in a country that claims to be the "land of the free and the home of the brave."  It should not be tolerated among a group of people who claim to "protect and serve." * And whatever it takes for this to be seen as unacceptable should happen*.


Even if it divides by exclusivity, the very people it is supposed to be uniting in seeing it as unnacceptable ?

Maybe if BLM wasn't such a political tool, so many people would not be bothered by it.

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> And then Trump made a total jackass of himself and called out the entire NFL and made Colin Kaepernick an overnight hero.  Now I don't know your profession.


  Oh?  Different circles, JM.  Look, Trump was never going to get the vote of the people for whom ever, in any alternative universe, Colin Kaepernick could potentially become a big hero.





> And yes, I am emotionally invested in believing blacks are disproportionately being shot despite the unpleasant truths Stefan Molyneux is spewing on the subject.


 And that's understandable.  I totally understand.  I don't want to change your mind.  I'm not going to change your mind.  I have no interest in that.  But for everyone else, *facts*:

*http://rightahead.news/the-race-iq-n...n-renaissance/*

*http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399.pdf*

We use event summaries 
from all incidents in which an officer discharges his weapon at civilians – including both hits
and misses – from three large cities in Texas (Austin, Dallas, Houston), six large Florida counties,
and Los Angeles County, to construct a data-set in which one can investigate racial differences in
officer-involved shootings. Because all individuals in these data have been involved in a police
shooting, analysis of these data alone can only estimate racial differences on the intensive margin
(e.g., did the officer discharge their weapon before or after the suspect attacked).

[W]e find no racial differences in officer-involved shootings on 
either the extensive or intensive margins. For example, using data from Houston, Texas – where
we have both officer-involved shootings and a randomly chosen set of potential interactions with
police where lethal force may have been justified – we find, in the raw data, that blacks are 23.8
percent less likely to be shot at by police relative to whites. Hispanics are 8.5 percent less likely.
Both coefficients are statistically insignificant. Adding controls for civilian demographics, officer
demographics, encounter characteristics, type of weapon civilian was carrying, and year fixed effects,
the black (resp. Hispanic) coefficient is 0.924 (0.417) (resp. 1.256 (0.595)). These coefficients are
remarkably robust across alternative empirical specifications and subsets of the data. Partitioning
the data in myriad ways, we find no evidence of racial discrimination in officer-involved shootings.
Investigating the intensive margin – the timing of shootings or how many bullets were discharged
in the endeavor – there are no detectable racial differences.


~~~

Given that blacks are about, oh, 3000% more likely to commit violent crimes, that is, to be out on the street day in and day out stupidly doing things that are going to inevitably cause run-ins with the police, and also that the researchers were total leftists who absolutely did not want to find this result and did everything they could to spin it to the SJW narrative,* this is a very strong and very significant finding.


* As was sensible and self-interested for them, to avoid being crucified, after all.  They have careers to consider; they don't want to be destroyed.  *Remember Dr. James Watson.*  And Dr. David Starkey, and Sir Timothy Hunt , and even Freeman Dyson.  These people are priceless treasures for humanity -- and still living!  We ought to be beating a path to their door and giving them all the resources they need to do their work, while we still have them!  Instead, they are savagely attacked and their careers destroyed, their work ended, forced into retirement.  Fired.  Pariahs.  And by whom?  By savages, SJW predators who can't comprehend 1/10 of a percent of their work.  They are just mindless, *Vampire Rabbit* scum, genetically programmed to be bent on destroying civilization.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> This is the very important part most people are missing about this story and that is the fact Colin K to the surprise of many people on this site who think blackness gives one immunity from getting fired, he did get fired for protesting the anthem and he most likely would never be hired ever again in the NFL.


I'll admit so not paying much mind to any of this, other than fanning the flames enough to get more people to tune out of the bread and circuses, which I have railed about for years.

But didn't CK get fired because he was a lousy QB and not over the protests?

----------


## Madison320

> Don't conflate everyone who protests police brutality with whatever agenda the so called "leaders" of black lives matter put on the internet.


That's true, but I'm more concerned with organized groups because they have more influence in elections. 

And remember, many of the players are protesting police brutality specifically against "blacks" and many are protesting specifically against "black injustice".

As I said before, I'm an equal opportunity hater. I hate blacks who make it about race and whites who make it about race.

One thing I will concede is that because the players who are protesting have worked hard to make a lot of money, they are probably less socialistic than the most common black groups.

----------


## Madison320

> *The American flag is a symbol of freedom.*
> 
> At the same time, yes, it is a figurative manifestation of statism and I totally get those who are saying "bravo to anyone refusing to salute/stand for/pledge allegiance to it."
> 
> Am I the only one that can see both sides of this?


You can love your country and hate your government.

----------


## Swordsmyth

*Second Company Decides To Pull NFL Ads Over Continued Protests*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-03/second-company-decides-pull-nfl-ads-over-continued-protests

----------


## helmuth_hubener

One thing to remember, all you NFL boycotters:

If the NFL hates you (and they do), _Hollywood_ has hated you for longer and hates you far, far more.

Just a random helpful *fact* to keep in mind!

----------


## euphemia

Okay, so Marcus Mariota is day-to-day with a hamstring injury.  The Titans signed a backup qb with random experience.  Media is griping because it isn't Kaepernick.  How racist of the Titans.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> One thing to remember, all you NFL boycotters:
> 
> If the NFL hates you (and they do), _Hollywood_ has hated you for longer and hates you far, far more.
> 
> Just a random helpful *fact* to keep in mind!

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> You can love your country and hate your government.


What is a "country"??  Invisible lines in the sand?  Words written on paper?  Dirt under your feet?

I love Liberty.  It's clearly an "idea".  I know what it is and I can define it.  I can't define a "country" though other than a legal fiction existing in the minds of believers...

----------


## jmdrake

> That's true, but I'm more concerned with organized groups because they have more influence in elections.


Except this isn't the result of an "organized group."  Colin Kaepernick decided to protest police brutality.  He didn't where a "Black Lives Matter" t-shirt or do a press conference about social justice or anything like that.




> And remember, many of the players are protesting police brutality specifically against "blacks" and many are protesting specifically against "black injustice".


Most of the players who are not protesting were not protesting at all until Donald Trump made an $#@! of himself.  Seriously, if you are going to be mad at anyone over this, be mad at Trump.  At the start of the season there were 5, count, 5 players protesting.  Kaepernick had in effect been fired.  (His contract was not renewed).  Trump made the protest spread league wide by his stupid comments.

And the fact is *blacks are disproportionately killed by cops!*  Don't by the Stefan Molyneaux bvllshyt.  Ron Paul laid it all out in 2008.  A good proxy for the just us system is the GWOD (global war on drugs).  Blacks and whites are equally likely to use drugs, but blacks are far more likely to be arrested.  Of those arrested blacks are disproportionately convicted.  Of those convicted, blacks have longer prison sentences.  If this is a lie, Ron Paul told it.  But it's not a lie.  It's the facts.  Blacks being disproportionately arrested equals more police encounters.  More police encounters equals more chances for some unarmed person to get shot.  It's not that cops are walking around looking to shoot blacks.  But disproportionate enforcement of stupid laws and militarization of police are leading to predictable results.





> As I said before, I'm an equal opportunity hater. I hate blacks who make it about race and whites who make it about race.


Was Ron Paul making the drug war "about race" in 2008?  Or was he simply telling the truth?




> One thing I will concede is that because the players who are protesting have worked hard to make a lot of money, they are probably less socialistic than the most common black groups.


 Please go join a majority black church so that you can meet with what makes up the majority of black people who are hard working people who don't have a lot of money.  And for the record, Steve Bannon is about as socialist as Barack Obama.  One trillion dollar to throw against the wall to see what sticks?

----------


## jmdrake

> Maybe not, but many of us did have an opinion about recent violent protests.  I had an opinion back in the 60s with violent protests and I had an opinion about the Rodney King riots.  I consder violent protest to be a form of terrorism.  I don't want to live my life afraid of what some group threatens.


So you're worried about the alt-right protestors running people over?

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Except this isn't the result of an "organized group."  Colin Kaepernick decided to protest police brutality.  He didn't where a "Black Lives Matter" t-shirt or do a press conference about social justice or anything like that.
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the players who are not protesting were not protesting at all until Donald Trump made an $#@! of himself.  Seriously, if you are going to be mad at anyone over this, be mad at Trump.  At the start of the season there were 5, count, 5 players protesting.  Kaepernick had in effect been fired.  (His contract was not renewed).  Trump made the protest spread league wide by his stupid comments.
> 
> And the fact is *blacks are disproportionately killed by cops!*  Don't by the Stefan Molyneaux bvllshyt.  Ron Paul laid it all out in 2008.  A good proxy for the just us system is the GWOD (global war on drugs).  Blacks and whites are equally likely to use drugs, but blacks are far more likely to be arrested.  Of those arrested blacks are disproportionately convicted.  Of those convicted, blacks have longer prison sentences.  If this is a lie, Ron Paul told it.  But it's not a lie.  It's the facts.  Blacks being disproportionately arrested equals more police encounters.  More police encounters equals more chances for some unarmed person to get shot.  It's not that cops are walking around looking to shoot blacks.  But disproportionate enforcement of stupid laws and militarization of police are leading to predictable results.
> 
> 
> ...


*Blacks vs. Police* 	   				 		 			Written by  						Walter E. Williams 




Let's throw out a few numbers so we can put in perspective the NFL  players taking a knee during the playing of the national anthem. Many  say they are protesting against police treatment of blacks and racial  discrimination. We might ask just how much sense their protest makes.
 According to _The Washington Post_, 737 people have been shot  and killed by police this year in the United States. Of that number,  there were 329 whites, 165 blacks, 112 Hispanics, 24 members of other  races and 107 people whose race was unknown. In Illinois, home to one of  our most dangerous cities — Chicago — 18 people have been shot and  killed by police this year. In the city itself, police have shot and  killed 10 people and shot and wounded 10 others. Somebody should ask the  kneeling black NFL players why they are protesting this kind of killing  in the Windy City and ignoring other sources of black death.
 Here are the Chicago numbers  for the ignored deaths. So far in 2017, there have been 533 murders and  2,880 shootings. On average, a person is shot every two hours and 17  minutes and murdered every 12 1/2 hours. In 2016, when Colin Kaepernick  started taking a knee, Chicago witnessed 806 murders and 4,379  shootings. It turns out that most of the murder victims are black.  Adding to the tragedy is the fact that Chicago has a 12.7 percent murder  clearance rate. That means that when a black person is murdered, his  perpetrator is found and charged with his murder less than 13 percent of  the time.

  Similar statistics regarding police killing blacks versus blacks  killing blacks apply to many of our predominantly black urban centers,  such as Philadelphia, Baltimore, New Orleans, St. Louis and Oakland.  Many Americans, including me, see the black NFL player protest of police  brutality as pathetic, useless showboating. Seeing as these players  have made no open protest against the thousands of blacks being murdered  and maimed by blacks, they must view it as trivial in comparison with  the police killings. Most of the police killings fit into the category  of justified homicide.
 NFL players are not by themselves. How much condemnation do black  politicians, civil rights leaders and liberal whites give to the wanton  black homicides in our cities? When have you heard them condemning the  very low clearance rate, whereby most black murderers get away with  murder? Do you believe they would be just as silent if it were the Ku  Klux Klan committing the murders?
 What's to blame for this mayhem? If you ask an intellectual, a  leftist or an academic in a sociology or psychology department, he will  tell you that it is caused by poverty, discrimination and a lack of  opportunities. But the black murder rate and other crime statistics in  the 1940s and '50s were not nearly so high as they are now. I wonder  whether your intellectual, leftist or academic would explain that we had  less black poverty, less racial discrimination and far greater  opportunities for blacks during earlier periods than we do today. He'd  have to be an unrepentant idiot to make such an utterance.
 So what can be done? Black people need to find new heroes. Right now,  at least in terms of the support given, their heroes are criminals such  as Baltimore's Freddie Gray, Ferguson's Michael Brown and Florida's  Trayvon Martin. Black support tends to go toward the criminals in the  community rather than to the overwhelming number of people in the  community who are law-abiding. That needs to end. What also needs to end  is the lack of respect for and cooperation with police officers. Some  police are crooked, but black people are likelier to be victims of  violent confrontations with police officers than whites simply because  blacks commit more violent crimes than whites per capita.
 For a race of people, these crime statistics are by no means  flattering, but if something good is to be done about it, we cannot fall  prey to the blame games that black politicians, black NFL players,  civil rights leaders and white liberals want to play. If their vision is  accepted, we can expect little improvement of the status quo.

https://www.thenewamerican.com/revie...acks-vs-police

----------


## jmdrake

So you are okay with police brutality because....black on black crime.    Only the killings of puppies matter on RPF I suppose.  

Here is a stat the Walter Williams apparently is ignorant of.  Violent crime in general, and that includes black on black crime, has been steadily declining for *decades* while shooting by police of unarmed civilians is going *up*.  Do you have an explanation for that?





> *Blacks vs. Police* 	   				 		 			Written by  						Walter E. Williams 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's throw out a few numbers so we can put in perspective the NFL  players taking a knee during the playing of the national anthem. Many  say they are protesting against police treatment of blacks and racial  discrimination. We might ask just how much sense their protest makes.
>  According to _The Washington Post_, 737 people have been shot  and killed by police this year in the United States. Of that number,  there were 329 whites, 165 blacks, 112 Hispanics, 24 members of other  races and 107 people whose race was unknown. In Illinois, home to one of  our most dangerous cities — Chicago — 18 people have been shot and  killed by police this year. In the city itself, police have shot and  killed 10 people and shot and wounded 10 others. Somebody should ask the  kneeling black NFL players why they are protesting this kind of killing  in the Windy City and ignoring other sources of black death.
>  Here are the Chicago numbers  for the ignored deaths. So far in 2017, there have been 533 murders and  2,880 shootings. On average, a person is shot every two hours and 17  minutes and murdered every 12 1/2 hours. In 2016, when Colin Kaepernick  started taking a knee, Chicago witnessed 806 murders and 4,379  shootings. It turns out that most of the murder victims are black.  Adding to the tragedy is the fact that Chicago has a 12.7 percent murder  clearance rate. That means that when a black person is murdered, his  perpetrator is found and charged with his murder less than 13 percent of  the time.
> 
> ...

----------


## tod evans

> So you are okay with police brutality because....black on black crime.


Wut?

----------


## jmdrake

> Wut?


That was the essence of the article posted.  How dare NFL players take a knee over police brutality because....blacks are killing blacks.  Of course the real reason the protests spread from 5 to few hundred is because Trump is a moron and decided to attack the NFL for not firing Colin Kaepernick....when the NFL had already fired Colin Kaepernick.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> So you are okay with police brutality because....black on black crime.    Only the killings of puppies matter on RPF I suppose.  
> 
> Here is a stat the Walter Williams apparently is ignorant of.  Violent crime in general, and that includes black on black crime, has been steadily declining for *decades* while shooting by police of unarmed civilians is going *up*.  Do you have an explanation for that?


I abhor "rabid cop" syndrome but blacks are NOT special targets and there are much bigger problems they should be worried about.

CK and his girl friend are radical anti-American leftists and they are attacking America NOT rabid cops:





> Go ahead and read Kaepernick's Saudi girlfriend's Twitter feed. She  retweets all kinds of things, and Police shootings is only one reason  for this "protest".
> 
> They are claiming the expanded protests are about "freedom of speech" and solidarity, not unjustified Police shootings.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...op-killer.html

 	 		 			 			 				Kaepernick's foundation made the donation to Chicago-based Assata's Daughter's, named after former *Black Liberation Army* member Assata Shakur, in April as part of a $1million charitable pledge.
Shakur was convicted of *first-degree murder* in the 1973 shooting  death of New Jersey state trooper Werner Foerster and sentenced to life  in prison, but staged a daring jailbreak and now lives as a fugitive in  Cuba.

Shakur was sentenced to life in prison, but escaped in 1979 when members  of the Black Liberation Army visited her behind bars with concealed  handguns, took prison officials hostage and commandeered a van.

----------


## jmdrake

> I abhor "rabid cop" syndrome but blacks are NOT special targets and there are much bigger problems they should be worried about.


1) I didn't say they were "special targets" for extrajudicial killing.  I said, and I quoted *RON PAUL*, that blacks are arrested and prosecuted for drugs at a much higher rate than they actually use drugs.  Those are facts.  Deal with them.

2) Black on black crime, while a problem, is on the decline as in crime in general.  So is black teen pregnancy rates.

3) You have bigger things to worry about than bump stocks but that doesn't mean assaults on the second amendment should be ignored.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> 1) I didn't say they were "special targets" for extrajudicial killing.  I said, and I quoted *RON PAUL*, that blacks are arrested and prosecuted for drugs at a much higher rate than they actually use drugs.  Those are facts.  Deal with them.
> 
> 2) Black on black crime, while a problem, is on the decline as in crime in general.  So is black teen pregnancy rates.
> 
> 3) You have bigger things to worry about than bump stocks but that doesn't mean assaults on the second amendment should be ignored.


Do I publicly insult America over bump stocks? The attack on America is the point of the protest, rabid cops are just the convenient moral high ground to launch the attack from.

----------


## jmdrake

> Do I publicly insult America over bump stocks? The attack on America is the point of the protest, rabid cops are just the convenient moral high ground to launch the attack from.


 Did you consider patriots flying their flags upside down when Obama was president publicly insulting American?  Because I didn't.  America is not a flag nor is it a song.  America is its people.  And it's not acceptable for American people, black or white, to be getting killed by police officers who are able to get off just by claiming they were "afraid" even if they had not just reason for their fear.  Further the large scale NFL protests are because Donald Trump is a complete moron.  Colin Kaepernick was already fired and Trump was demanding that he be fired.  How anybody on this forum can stand with such a complete jackass, who is now showing his gun grabbing colors, is beyond me.  Once police state USA starts affecting you directly, I'm sure patriotic 'Merikuns will appreciate you saluting the flag as you are hauled off to a FEMA camp.

----------


## Lamp

> So you are okay with police brutality because....black on black crime.    Only the killings of puppies matter on RPF I suppose.  
> 
> Here is a stat the Walter Williams apparently is ignorant of.  Violent crime in general, and that includes black on black crime, has been steadily declining for *decades* while shooting by police of unarmed civilians is going *up*.  Do you have an explanation for that?


And cows and pigs if your lily apparently

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> You can love your country and hate your government.


Exactly.  

That love of country is what the rabbits don't have.  Their normal, natural in-group preference (aka "bigotry!" "xenophobia!") has fallen so malignantly, mortiferously low as to become an actual preference for the out-group, accompanied by a sneering deplorance of the in-group!  Not attractive.  Not healthy.

The hate of government is what some conservative K-selected wolf-types don't have as strongly as we do.  But, interestingly, they do still have it!  Almost to a man they do.  They hate the government as we do, just more moderately, less stridently, less doctrinairely.  One reason, the main reason, they hate the government is precisely _because_ they love their country, and they see the government destroying their country.

_Choose thine allies carefully_.  There has been some bad strategic advice in this regard on this thread.

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> What is a "country"?


It's blood and soil.  A group of people, bound together through kinship and love, and the homeland that they've built together.  You don't have it.  I know.  Not everyone does.  You're off gallivanting in China and here, there, and everywhere, and could hardly be brought to care less about any particular land, or as you derisively call it "dirt under your feet."  That is: something to spit upon.  Nothing more.

But humans in general, for better or worse, are different than you, Christian.  They love to have a sense of place, they will have a feeling of pride in the town their family built back in the 1800s, or reverence for the rough stone house their great-grandfather built with his two bare hands.




> I can't define a "country" though other than a legal fiction existing in the minds of believers...


Blood and soil.  Yes, blood and soil.  It's fiction to you.  It's fiction to rabbits.  They see it as just a mass, incomprehensible delusion, as atheists see a belief in God as being.  But wolves are territorial.  As are more typical humans, long-term viable humans.  They feel a deep and abiding connection to their property, to their communities, to the miniature worlds which they so painstakingly build.  They feel a deep connection to their past, their ancestors.  They feel a strong -- a primary -- sense of duty and obligation regarding their future generations, their great-grand-children.

Note: not _the_ past, _the_ future, but _their_ past, _their_ future.  And in deed and very fact it shall be theirs, for the rabbit people have no future.  The future belongs to K.

----------


## CaptUSA

> It's blood and soil.  A group of people, bound together through kinship and love, and the homeland that they've built together.  You don't have it.  I know.  Not everyone does.  You're off gallivanting in China and here, there, and everywhere, and could hardly be brought to care less about any particular land, or as you derisively call it "dirt under your feet."  That is: something to spit upon.  Nothing more.
> 
> But humans in general, for better or worse, are different than you, Christian.  They love to have a sense of place, they will have a feeling of pride in the town their family built back in the 1800s, or reverence for the rough stone house their great-grandfather built with his two bare hands.
> 
> 
> 
> Blood and soil.  Yes, blood and soil.  It's fiction to you.  It's fiction to rabbits.  They see it as just a mass, incomprehensible delusion, as atheists see a belief in God as being.  But wolves are territorial.  As are more typical humans, long-term viable humans.  They feel a deep and abiding connection to their property, to their communities, to the miniature worlds which they so painstakingly build.  They feel a deep connection to their past, their ancestors.  They feel a strong -- a primary -- sense of duty and obligation regarding their future generations, their great-grand-children.
> 
> Note: not _the_ past, _the_ future, but _their_ past, _their_ future.  And in deed and very fact it shall be theirs, for the rabbit people have no future.  The future belongs to K.


Hmm...  Interesting...

I would say that might be true to a locality - maybe even a state.  But this whole nation??  Parts of California couldn't feel more foreign to me if they were on another continent.  I've never even been to Hawaii.  I'm not sure I have much "kinship" with them other than by law.  What about Guam or Puerto Rico?  Do they count?  As part of this blood and soil?  I'm not sure how I can claim any sense of ownership or sense of pride there.  I mean, I know there's a paper somewhere that says they're a part of the country, but I didn't have any part in writing it.  Nor, did I or my kin build anything there.

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> Most of the players who are not protesting were not protesting at all until Donald Trump


 Indeed.  Behold the tactical brilliance of the Donald.  You don't like it.  But you can at least appreciate it.





> And the fact is *blacks are disproportionately killed by cops!*  Don't by the Stefan Molyneaux


 I like *facts*.  I am a big fan of *facts*.  I posted the *facts*, the *best facts*, as best as anyone has them.  I also have not listened to any Stephan Molyneux for weeks at least and am not aware of any episode he has done on the racial makeup of police shootings, except through your advertisements, JM.  I am getting my facts completely independently of one Sir Stephan Molyneux.  So that should make you feel better.  Maybe?

Now I'm not going to change JM's mind, and I accept that.  I embrace that.  If I were very mean, I could _exploit_ the fact that he is going to be incapable of changing his mind in order to make him look really bad and demolish his side and advance my agenda, which agenda is just truth.  All I'd have to do is enter into an extended debate and it would become more and more clear to all where the truth lies.  And this would not be because I'm better or he's worse or anything like that, I want to make that clear, but simply because the truth on this is really, really obvious and clear.

But, I don't think I'm going to do that.  Because I actually like JM.  I like it when he comes by.  And the truth _is_ so obvious on this disputed point of fact that it really needs no helpful shove from me.  Every intelligent person with sufficient interest in the racial makeup of police shootings can simply read the latest research paper on the topic.  Again:


We use event summaries
from all incidents in which an officer discharges his weapon at civilians – including both hits
and misses – from three large cities in Texas (Austin, Dallas, Houston), six large Florida counties,
and Los Angeles County, to construct a data-set in which one can investigate racial differences in
officer-involved shootings. Because all individuals in these data have been involved in a police
shooting, analysis of these data alone can only estimate racial differences on the intensive margin
(e.g., did the officer discharge their weapon before or after the suspect attacked).

*[W]e find no racial differences in officer-involved shootings on
either the extensive or intensive margins.* For example, using data from Houston, Texas – where
we have both officer-involved shootings and a randomly chosen set of potential interactions with
police where lethal force may have been justified – *we find, in the raw data, that blacks are 23.8
percent less likely to be shot at by police relative to whites*. Hispanics are 8.5 percent less likely.
Both coefficients are statistically insignificant. Adding controls for civilian demographics, officer
demographics, encounter characteristics, type of weapon civilian was carrying, and year fixed effects,
the black (resp. Hispanic) coefficient is 0.924 (0.417) (resp. 1.256 (0.595)). These coefficients are
remarkably robust across alternative empirical specifications and subsets of the data. *Partitioning
the data in myriad ways, we find no evidence of racial discrimination in officer-involved shootings.
Investigating the intensive margin – the timing of shootings or how many bullets were discharged
in the endeavor – there are no detectable racial differences.*


But read the whole paper.  It's pretty clear.  http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399.pdf

You know what _does_ have a racial disparity, incidentally?  Just as an interesting tidbit.  These police officers doing the shooting are very disproportionately... that's right..... BLACK!

So thanks, all you BLACK cops, for killing us and our dogs!  Luv ya!

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> Hmm...  Interesting...
> 
> I would say that might be true to a locality - maybe even a state.  But this whole nation??  Parts of California couldn't feel more foreign to me if they were on another continent.  I never even been to Hawaii.  I'm not sure I have much "kinship" with them other than by law.  What about Guam or Puerto Rico?  Do they count?  As part of this blood and soil?  I'm not sure how I can claim any sense of ownership or sense of pride there.  I mean, I know there's a paper somewhere that says they're a part of the country, but I didn't have any part in writing it.  Nor, did I or my kin build anything there.


Absolutely!  See, now we are thinking along realistic lines, along truly _human_ lines.  I agree with everything you wrote.  Everyone, deep in their bones and their DNA, agrees with everything you wrote.  It is in accordance with reality.

Dunbar's number is 150.  That can expand by a few orders of magnitude, certainly, but not indefinitely.  And the affinity will get progressively weaker the larger the concentric circles.

----------


## helmuth_hubener

It's not just numbers, either.  But, as you pointed out, Cap'n: degree of similarity.

----------


## Ender

> Did you consider patriots flying their flags upside down when Obama was president publicly insulting American?  Because I didn't.  America is not a flag nor is it a song.  America is its people.  And it's not acceptable for American people, black or white, to be getting killed by police officers who are able to get off just by claiming they were "afraid" even if they had not just reason for their fear.  Further the large scale NFL protests are because Donald Trump is a complete moron.  Colin Kaepernick was already fired and Trump was demanding that he be fired.  How anybody on this forum can stand with such a complete jackass, who is now showing his gun grabbing colors, is beyond me.  Once police state USA starts affecting you directly, I'm sure patriotic 'Merikuns will appreciate you saluting the flag as you are hauled off to a FEMA camp.


Preach it, Brother- I agree.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Hmm...  Interesting...
> 
> I would say that might be true to a locality - maybe even a state.  But this whole nation??  Parts of California couldn't feel more foreign to me if they were on another continent.  I've never even been to Hawaii.  I'm not sure I have much "kinship" with them other than by law.  What about Guam or Puerto Rico?  Do they count?  As part of this blood and soil?  I'm not sure how I can claim any sense of ownership or sense of pride there.  I mean, I know there's a paper somewhere that says they're a part of the country, but I didn't have any part in writing it.  Nor, did I or my kin build anything there.


CALExit!

----------


## Madison320

> What is a "country"??  Invisible lines in the sand?  Words written on paper?  Dirt under your feet?
> 
> I love Liberty.  It's clearly an "idea".  I know what it is and I can define it.  I can't define a "country" though other than a legal fiction existing in the minds of believers...


A geographical area.

----------


## Madison320

> So you are okay with police brutality because....black on black crime.    Only the killings of puppies matter on RPF I suppose.  
> 
> Here is a stat the Walter Williams apparently is ignorant of.  Violent crime in general, and that includes black on black crime, has been steadily declining for *decades* while shooting by police of unarmed civilians is going *up*.  Do you have an explanation for that?


Easy. An increase in socialism. Show me some NFL players that are protesting socialism and I'll support them.

----------


## Swordsmyth

In tax documents recently released by 2ndVote, a conservative watchdog group, we learn that* the NFL Players Association (NFLPA) made  a donation of $5,000 in 2015 to the Center for Community Change Action,  a George Soros funded and adamantly anti-Trump organization*.
 Yet, as The Washington Times details, that just scratches the surface  of the NFLPA’s dealings and donations to the extreme left...
The NFLPA contributed  $5,000 in 2014 to Jobs with Justice, another pro-union group backed by  Mr. Soros, and $5,000 in 2013 to the progressive Los Angeles Alliance  for a New Economy.

 The NFLPA donations from 2013, 2014 and 2015 were made before Mr. Trump was elected.

 Other NFLPA charitable  contributions went to a mix of groups supporting veterans, medical  research and youth, including the Wounded Warrior Project, the Packard  Center for ALS Research at Johns Hopkins, Active Minds, and the Boys and  Girls Clubs of Greater Washington._“Clearly, ‘social activism’ by NFL players includes  aligning with George Soros and other liberal organizations like Planned  Parenthood in support of the left’s agenda,”_ said 2ndVote, a conservative watchdog group.
 We wonder how this additional news will affect NFL ratings/ticket  sales this week - as it seems players are not 'on the same team'  politically as many of their supporters.

More at: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-1...dvocacy-groups

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> It's blood and soil.  A group of people, bound together through kinship and love, and the homeland that they've built together.  You don't have it.  I know.  Not everyone does.  You're off gallivanting in China and here, there, and everywhere, and could hardly be brought to care less about any particular land, or as you derisively call it "dirt under your feet."  That is: something to spit upon.  Nothing more.
> 
> But humans in general, for better or worse, are different than you, Christian.  They love to have a sense of place, they will have a feeling of pride in the town their family built back in the 1800s, or reverence for the rough stone house their great-grandfather built with his two bare hands.
> 
> 
> 
> Blood and soil.  Yes, blood and soil.  It's fiction to you.  It's fiction to rabbits.  They see it as just a mass, incomprehensible delusion, as atheists see a belief in God as being.  But wolves are territorial.  As are more typical humans, long-term viable humans.  They feel a deep and abiding connection to their property, to their communities, to the miniature worlds which they so painstakingly build.  They feel a deep connection to their past, their ancestors.  They feel a strong -- a primary -- sense of duty and obligation regarding their future generations, their great-grand-children.
> 
> Note: not _the_ past, _the_ future, but _their_ past, _their_ future.  And in deed and very fact it shall be theirs, for the rabbit people have no future.  The future belongs to K.


So I can band together with a bunch of "Christian Anarchists" on our property (as large as we can afford) (that will be our blood and soil), we will be bound together by kinship and love so our property can rightfully be our "country" according to the above.  I actually will agree with you then.  We can bind ourselves together (by any group of two or more) and create our own country.  I will recommend we call ours Anarchyland...

----------


## Lamp

> So I can band together with a bunch of "Christian Anarchists" on our property (as large as we can afford) (that will be our blood and soil), we will be bound together by kinship and love so our property can rightfully be our "country" according to the above.  I actually will agree with you then.  We can bind ourselves together (by any group of two or more) and create our own country.  I will recommend we call ours Anarchyland...


Good on you

----------


## Krugminator2

> So I can band together with a bunch of "Christian Anarchists" on our property (as large as we can afford) (that will be our blood and soil), we will be bound together by kinship and love so our property can rightfully be our "country" according to the above.  I actually will agree with you then.  We can bind ourselves together (by any group of two or more) and create our own country.  I will recommend we call ours Anarchyland...


Whether countries are a good idea or not is debatable, but they do exist. And countries differ greatly. Borders  matter in reality. All you have to do is go just south of the United States. Mexico and the United States are not the same. Mexico is a repressive third world hell because of the ideas they embrace. America is very prosperous because of the ideals we embrace.

People shouldn't be proud of a flag or a country for the sake of being proud. If you are from Mexico, you shouldn't be proud of Mexico. On the other hand, I am very thankful for the very noble ideals the United States was founded on and the relative preservation of them for 240 years.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Whether countries are a good idea or not is debatable, but they do exist. And countries differ greatly. Borders  matter in reality. All you have to do is go just south of the United States. Mexico and the United States are not the same. Mexico is a repressive third world hell because of the ideas they embrace. America is very prosperous because of the ideals we embrace.
> 
> People shouldn't be proud of a flag or a country for the sake of being proud. If you are from Mexico, you shouldn't be proud of Mexico. On the other hand, I am very thankful for the very noble ideals the United States was founded on and the relative preservation of them for 240 years.


Exactly!

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> Whether countries are a good idea or not is debatable, but they do exist. And countries differ greatly. Borders  matter in reality. All you have to do is go just south of the United States. Mexico and the United States are not the same. Mexico is a repressive third world hell because of the ideas they embrace. America is very prosperous because of the ideals we embrace.
> 
> People shouldn't be proud of a flag or a country for the sake of being proud. If you are from Mexico, you shouldn't be proud of Mexico. On the other hand, I am very thankful for the very noble ideals the United States was founded on and the relative preservation of them for 240 years.


What will "your goonerment" have to do to you to make it so you are uncomfortable saying your pledge or saluting your flag??  When the goons start knocking on doors to take guns will you stop then??  How about when they take 30% of your earnings??  Will you stop then??  How about if they start putting people in cages or killing them because they have cancer and believe that smoking a certain plant matter will help their condition??  Will you stop then??  How about they tell you you cannot buy raw milk??  Will you stop then???

Preserved those "ideals"? have they??  Confused you are...

----------


## Krugminator2

> What will "your goonerment" have to do to you to make it so you are uncomfortable saying your pledge or saluting your flag?? When the goons start knocking on doors to take guns will you stop then?? How about when they take 30% of your earnings?? Will you stop then?? How about if they start putting people in cages or killing them because they have cancer and believe that smoking a certain plant matter will help their condition?? Will you stop then?? How about they tell you you cannot buy raw milk?? Will you stop then???
> 
> Preserved those "ideals"? have they?? Confused you are...


1. Don't own any guns. The Second Amendment has probably been the most untouched part of the Constitution by the government. I would bet the Framers would be pleasantly surprised with how well it has been preserved.
2. Already in the 33% bracket. Don't love taxes but the flip side is the US is  the best place to make money in the world.  I wouldn't consider moving for a second.
3. Obviously I am for drug legalization. I think drug prohibition is a major infringement and the crime associated with drug illegality is a major issue. It is the single worst governmental policy.
4. People should be able to drink raw milk. That does not rank in the top 50,000 things that matter.   

I have probably faced more government regulatory abuses than most. I have had five figures stolen by the government playing poker over the years. I just finally got my money back from the DOJ this week from Absolute Poker which the government confiscated in 2011. The biggest things I worry about on a daily basis are regulations that government can use to mess up my life. Yet, it is important to have context. Those are minor inconveniences compared to someone born in 90% of the rest of the world. Someone born in South America or Africa or most of Asia, and most of Europe has no opportunity in life. The United States in 2017 is still the best time and place to live in human history. It isn't perfect but it is the least imperfect place to live. Most of human history has been people living short, brutal lives. The United States has been a deviation from that.

----------


## Madison320

> What will "your goonerment" have to do to you to make it so you are uncomfortable saying your pledge or saluting your flag??  When the goons start knocking on doors to take guns will you stop then??  How about when they take 30% of your earnings??  Will you stop then??  How about if they start putting people in cages or killing them because they have cancer and believe that smoking a certain plant matter will help their condition??  Will you stop then??  How about they tell you you cannot buy raw milk??  Will you stop then???
> 
> Preserved those "ideals"? have they??  Confused you are...


The problem with anarchies is that they're impossible. There is always someone with the most force making the decisions. The ONLY option is to try to make your goonerment as "least bad" as possible.

----------


## Madison320

> It should be up to the NFL to decide if it is a problem and what to do about protests.   The government should not be telling a business what to do and who to fire.  There is also the question of free speech.


Second neg rep for ignoring my question. For the third time Senor Propaganda. Are you against discrimination laws?

----------


## CaptUSA

> 1. Don't own any guns. The Second Amendment has probably been the most untouched part of the Constitution by the government. I would bet the Framers would be pleasantly surprised with how well it has been preserved.


Ha!  The 2nd amendment was supposed to be a check against unfettered tyranny.  I think the Founders would think what an utter failure it was.  Totally ineffective.  Government found a way to become tyrannical in spite of the weaponry of its subjects.

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> 1. Don't own any guns. The Second Amendment has probably been the most untouched part of the Constitution by the government. I would bet the Framers would be pleasantly surprised with how well it has been preserved.
> 2. Already in the 33% bracket. Don't love taxes but the flip side is the US is  the best place to make money in the world.  I wouldn't consider moving for a second.
> 3. Obviously I am for drug legalization. I think drug prohibition is a major infringement and the crime associated with drug illegality is a major issue. It is the single worst governmental policy.
> 4. People should be able to drink raw milk. That does not rank in the top 50,000 things that matter.   
> 
> I have probably faced more government regulatory abuses than most. I have had five figures stolen by the government playing poker over the years. I just finally got my money back from the DOJ this week from Absolute Poker which the government confiscated in 2011. The biggest things I worry about on a daily basis are regulations that government can use to mess up my life. Yet, it is important to have context. Those are minor inconveniences compared to someone born in 90% of the rest of the world. Someone born in South America or Africa or most of Asia, and most of Europe has no opportunity in life. The United States in 2017 is still the best time and place to live in human history. It isn't perfect but it is the least imperfect place to live. Most of human history has been people living short, brutal lives. The United States has been a deviation from that.


So glad to hear your chains set lightly upon you... Just don't try to put your chains around my neck.  I don't like them (and don't try to force me to salute your flag or sing your magic song...)

----------


## Weston White

the NFL needs to make a new TD dance, like one where everybody on the field takes a knee while Beyonce and JayZ belt out some hook about the oppression of blacks because of crackers.

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> the NFL needs to make a new TD dance, like one where everybody on the field takes a knee while Beyonce and JayZ belt out some hook about the oppression of blacks because of crackers.


Let me ask you the same question (and this is my new standard question for "patriot" types).  What does your goonerment have to do before you will feel uncomfortable saluting the flag and saying the pledge??  This is a serious question.  I'm not asking it as a cute retort.  I really want to know what it will take for people to change their thinking.

----------


## juleswin

> Let me ask you the same question (and this is my new standard question for "patriot" types).  What does your goonerment have to do before you will feel uncomfortable saluting the flag and saying the pledge??  This is a serious question.  I'm not asking it as a cute retort.  I really want to know what it will take for people to change their thinking.


Gonna play devil's advocate here but I think for most of these types, nothing the gov can do will cause them to feel uncomfortable about the flag because to them the flag symbolizes the idea of America and what the country really stands for i.e. freedom, liberty, capitalism, meritocracy etc etc. The govt tarnishing that symbol will not make em budge an inch if anything that would increase their allegiance to the flag which is the only thing that reminds them of what the country truly stands for. 

The government != the flag or the pledge of allegiance. If anything, they are also a threat to the flag and pledge.

----------


## Weston White

> Let me ask you the same question (and this is my new standard question for "patriot" types).  What does your goonerment have to do before you will feel uncomfortable saluting the flag and saying the pledge??  This is a serious question.  I'm not asking it as a cute retort.  I really want to know what it will take for people to change their thinking.


Speaking for myself:

1. I personally do not feel that acts of patriotism belong in the mix of sporting events.
2. Saluting the flag is the obligation of the active military as part of pomp and circumstance.
3. Partaking in pomp and frills is not intended to be representative of current public office holders (as to their politics, current geopolitical events, or the wellness of their performance), but as an expression of the heritage and pride of one's nation and/or state.

----------


## acptulsa

> Gonna play devil's advocate here but I think for most of these types, nothing the gov can do will cause them to feel uncomfortable about the flag because to them the flag symbolizes the idea of America and what the country really stands for i.e. freedom, liberty, capitalism, meritocracy etc etc. The govt tarnishing that symbol will not make em budge an inch if anything that would increase their allegiance to the flag which is the only thing that reminds them of what they country truly stands for. 
> 
> The government != the flag or the pledge of allegiance. If anything, they are also a threat to the flag and pledge.


But the country has changed, and the government has changed.  The flag has changed too.

I'd be ready to display the 48-star flag as a demonstration that I have no allegiance to the direction they are taking if I didn't think it would be misinterpreted (no doubt deliberately) as an insult to Alaska and Hawaii.  The original with the circle of 13 stars might get the point across.

In fact, this is the very reason I fly the Bennington Flag (my avatar).

----------


## juleswin

> But the country has changed, and the government has changed.  The flag has changed too.
> 
> I'd be ready to display the 48-star flag as a demonstration that I have no allegiance to the direction they are taking if I didn't think it would be misinterpreted (no doubt deliberately) as an insult to Alaska and Hawaii.  The original with the circle of 13 stars might get the point across.
> 
> In fact, this is the very reason I fly the Bennington Flag (my avatar).


Good point, btw I never realized until this minute that your avatar was not the regular American flag.

----------


## Weston White

> Good point, btw I never realized until this minute that your avatar was not the regular American flag.


Speaking of which, I just noticed that your avatar is not Ashton Kutcher.  Wow, mind blown!

----------


## juleswin

> Speaking of which, I just noticed that your avatar is not Ashton Kutcher.  Wow, mind blown!


Many people don't know this but its his costar Fez aka Wilma Valderama posing as Che. That 70s show is the bum and it is my inspiration to everything I do. Remember how I used to say "in my country ......."? well, I got it from Fez the character

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> So I can band together with a bunch of "Christian Anarchists" on our property (as large as we can afford) (that will be our blood and soil), we will be bound together by kinship and love so our property can rightfully be our "country" according to the above.


 Obviously!

I have long recommended this, in fact, as one of our more viable paths to success and survival.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ho#post3579842

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...Town-or-County





> I actually will agree with you then.


 I should hope so!

----------


## Swordsmyth

*NFL now least liked sport, core fans down 31%*http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/shock-poll-nfl-now-least-liked-sport-core-fans-down-31/article/2636837

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> Speaking for myself:
> 
> 1. I personally do not feel that acts of patriotism belong in the mix of sporting events.
> 2. Saluting the flag is the obligation of the active military as part of pomp and circumstance.
> 3. Partaking in pomp and frills is not intended to be representative of current public office holders (as to their politics, current geopolitical events, or the wellness of their performance), but as an expression of the heritage and pride of one's nation and/or state.


That's good but I still would like to see what it would take before you find the "stars and stripes" to come to represent oppression instead of liberty.  For me that came a LOOOOOOOG time ago.  Would it represent oppression if they flew the flag over a supreme court that said they can jail your wife and children because they are a certain heritage (happened three times already), or perhaps because the flag flies over a national police force that says they need to know every dollar you spend (so they can steal a percentage of it)?  Where is the line where you will say the "flag" no longer represents your ideals?

Don't forget, the Nazi swastika used to (and still does) represent peace in ancient Chinese and Japanese cultures but Jews don't seem to see it that way.

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> Would it represent oppression if they flew the flag over a supreme court that said they can jail your wife and children because they are a certain heritage (happened three times already)


Yes, CA, countries can fight wars.

And if you're going to fight a war, yes, you can -- and must -- be able to jail, expel, and execute anyone from the country you're warring against who happens to be unfortunate enough to find themselves in your country when the war starts.  That is, if you, like, care about winning and junk.

That's, like, war, man.  It's all messy and junk.  Not groovy at all.  Hardly any signs of grooviness in your typical war.

Lame, I know!

----------


## enhanced_deficit

Even Nelly had  called out some Trump supporters in NFL over boycotts:

----------


## euphemia

> What will "your goonerment" have to do to you to make it so you are uncomfortable saying your pledge or saluting your flag??


The use of deliberately inflammatory language sends the message that you are not really open to discussion and that you do not own your opinions.  If you want to get a point across, then you need to speak respectfully and use proper terminology.

----------


## dannno

> *NFL now least liked sport, core fans down 31%*
> 
> http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/sh...rticle/2636837


Ouch.

----------


## Danke

> Ha!  The 2nd amendment was supposed to be a check against unfettered tyranny.  I think the Founders would think what an utter failure it was.  Totally ineffective.  Government found a way to become tyrannical in spite of the weaponry of its subjects.


They severely limit what type of weaponry civilians can have.

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> Yes, CA, countries can fight wars.
> 
> And if you're going to fight a war, yes, you can -- and must -- be able to jail, expel, and execute anyone from the country you're warring against who happens to be unfortunate enough to find themselves in your country when the war starts.  That is, if you, like, care about winning and junk.
> 
> That's, like, war, man.  It's all messy and junk.  Not groovy at all.  Hardly any signs of grooviness in your typical war.
> 
> Lame, I know!


Yes, and Helmuth Hubener was executed because he was a "danger to the war effort".  So I'm sure you agree with the decision to behead him...

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> The use of deliberately inflammatory language sends the message that you are not really open to discussion and that you do not own your opinions.  If you want to get a point across, then you need to speak respectfully and use proper terminology.


Yes, I'm very respective of people who deserve respect... prostitutes, drug users, even highway robbers deserve a certain amount of respect because they don't claim to be in the right when they rob you nor do they rob you every payday...

I have started using "goon" and "goonerment" for a reason (and I will not stop).  It's to show what the true nature of goonerment is.  They rob, they steal, and then they ask you to "respect" them for doing it.  Talk about Stockholm Syndrome... You have it bad sir.  I hope you will see it before it's too late...

----------


## Zippyjuan

> *NFL now least liked sport, core fans down 31%*http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/shock-poll-nfl-now-least-liked-sport-core-fans-down-31/article/2636837


No NASCAR in the poll?   Isn't that supposed to be the sport of "real Americans"?  

http://awfulannouncing.com/racing/na...race-ever.html




> *NASCAR opens 2017 playoffs with lowest rated postseason race ever
> *
> _NASCAR still hasn't found a way to fix their ongoing ratings slide._
> 
> NASCAR made it a point to improve its television ratings this season.* After years and years of prolonged decline* on television, the sport has thrown everything they can at trying to reverse the slide. While NASCAR has tinkered with its rules and how it decides a champion in the past, this season NASCAR took maybe its boldest step yet.
> 
> In the hopes of getting fans to stick around and watch more racing, NASCAR completely restructured how races are run this year and are doing it in stages. Stage racing certainly has its fans and its detractors, but for NASCAR the success of this initiative and so many others comes down to their ratings.
> 
> Unfortunately, they are still going in the wrong direction. Just how bad are NASCARs ratings right now? According to Sports Media Watch, this weekends playoff opener at Chicagoland Speedway was the* lowest rated and least watched playoff race on record.* Are you ready for even worse news for NASCAR? This weeks race in Chicago and last weeks final regular season race at Richmond are the two* lowest rated NASCAR races this millennium.*

----------


## Madison320

> It should be up to the NFL to decide if it is a problem and what to do about protests.   The government should not be telling a business what to do and who to fire.  There is also the question of free speech.


Why won't you answer the question? I've asked you 3 times if you're against discrimination laws and neg repped you and you still won't answer. Maybe because in your haste to criticize Trump you exposed yourself as a hypocrite?

----------


## gaazn

The government shouldn't be using taxpayer money to funnel to the NFL for these military-masked-as-patriotism advertisements in the first place.

----------


## Swordsmyth

*Trump: End Tax Breaks For Anti-American NFL*https://www.infowars.com/president-trump-calls-for-end-of-tax-breaks-for-anti-american-nfl/

----------


## Zippyjuan

> *Trump: End Tax Breaks For Anti-American NFL*https://www.infowars.com/president-trump-calls-for-end-of-tax-breaks-for-anti-american-nfl/




NFL dropped tax exempt status a year and a half ago- April, 2015. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...lary/26543647/




> *By dropping tax-exempt status, NFL can avoid disclosing Roger Goodell's salary*
> 
> The NFL's annual tax return always seemed a little strange.
> 
> Among other things, it described the league as "trade association" that is not organized for profit and is exempt from paying income taxes.
> 
> It also publicly disclosed how much it paid its commissioner -- $44 million to Roger Goodell in fiscal year 2012.
> 
> *But not anymore. After more than 70 years as a tax-exempt operation, the NFL said Tuesday that its league office will relinquish its tax-exempt status and file as a taxable entity instead.*





> In response, the league said the controversy was rooted in a basic misunderstanding. *The league office was tax-exempt, but its member teams were not*. Some might have been under the mistaken impression that the entire league was allowed to avoid taxes.
> 
> NFL drops tax-exempt status to avoid 'distraction'
> 
> Tax experts also told USA TODAY Sports that the NFL's decision to give up its tax-exempt status was largely symbolic and not likely to result in significant new tax bills. By giving up its tax-exempt status, the league also no longer will have to disclose what it pays top executives.
> 
> "The income generated by football has always been earned by the 32 clubs and taxable there," said a statement issued by Robert McNair, owner of the Houston Texans and chairman of the league's finance committee. "This is the case whether the league office is tax exempt or taxable. The owners have decided to eliminate the distraction associated with misunderstanding of the league office's status, so the league office will in the future file returns as a taxable entity."



http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...tus-today.html




> *Is the NFL tax exempt?*
> 
> While churches, charities and other nonprofit organizations are usually exempt from certain taxes, the NFL central office is not. It *was exempt until 2015, when it voluntarily changed its status.*
> 
> *What about the teams?*
> 
> While the league office, which handles the administrative side of the game, was exempt until 2015, the *NFL teams have always been subjected to taxes.*


They may get local tax breaks say for building stadiums but no Federal tax breaks.  Cities and states give tax breaks to all kinds of businesses to encourage them to locate there. 



Much ado about nothing.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> NFL dropped tax exempt status a year and a half ago- April, 2015. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...lary/26543647/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...tus-today.html
> 
> ...



The President’s critics have cited this detail in their attempts to  counter his statement, but fail to recognize that the league and its  teams still enjoy a variety of other loopholes and breaks – specifically  those that pertain to the construction of new stadiums. 
A report by Watchdog.org  estimates that NFL teams have made off with around $7 billion in  subsidies in the last 20-30 years via stadium costs footed by taxpayers. 
Additionally, when arena-building expenses for other major sports  leagues are taken into account, taxpayers have been fleeced for over  $15 billion during the same period, according to a study done by the  College of the Holy Cross on “Financing Professional Sports Facilities.” 
“Far from pumping money into the local economy, stadium subsidies are merely _shifting_ money  from ordinary taxpayers to large corporations,” reads the study. “We’re  taking money away from some parts of town so that business can boom  closer to the stadium. And the small increase in tourism that the  stadiums generally attract doesn’t come close to covering what the  public pays to make it happen.” 
“It’s a false investment that we’re being forced to make, and it’s no wonder we’re not seeing a return.” 
A similar study  done last year by the Brookings Institute reports, “All together, the  federal government has subsidized newly constructed or majorly renovated  professional sports stadiums to the tune of $3.2 billion federal  taxpayer dollars since 2000. But because high-income bond holders  receive a windfall gain for holding municipal bonds, the resulting loss  in total revenue to the federal government is even larger at $3.7  billion.” 

https://www.infowars.com/president-t...-american-nfl/

----------


## Zippyjuan

> The President’s critics have cited this detail in their attempts to  counter his statement, but fail to recognize that the league and its  teams still enjoy a variety of other loopholes and breaks – specifically  those that pertain to the construction of new stadiums. 
> A report by Watchdog.org  estimates that NFL teams have made off with around $7 billion in  subsidies in the last 20-30 years via stadium costs footed by taxpayers. 
> Additionally, when arena-building expenses for other major sports  leagues are taken into account, taxpayers have been fleeced for over  $15 billion during the same period, according to a study done by the  College of the Holy Cross on “Financing Professional Sports Facilities.” 
> “Far from pumping money into the local economy, stadium subsidies are merely _shifting_ money  from ordinary taxpayers to large corporations,” reads the study. “We’re  taking money away from some parts of town so that business can boom  closer to the stadium. And the small increase in tourism that the  stadiums generally attract doesn’t come close to covering what the  public pays to make it happen.” 
> “It’s a false investment that we’re being forced to make, and it’s no wonder we’re not seeing a return.” 
> A similar study  done last year by the Brookings Institute reports, “All together, the  federal government has subsidized newly constructed or majorly renovated  professional sports stadiums to the tune of $3.2 billion federal  taxpayer dollars since 2000. But because high-income bond holders  receive a windfall gain for holding municipal bonds, the resulting loss  in total revenue to the federal government is even larger at $3.7  billion.” 
> 
> https://www.infowars.com/president-t...-american-nfl/


As I mentioned, those are local tax breaks which Trump has no control over.  Other businesses are also offered tax breaks from local governments.  WalMart is a big example.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> As I mentioned, those are local tax breaks which Trump has no control over.  Other businesses are also offered tax breaks from local governments.  WalMart is a big example.


And that should change, and it is even more important that it should change for the anti-American NFL.

And what part of federal don't you understand?

“All together, the  *federal government* has subsidized newly constructed  or majorly renovated  professional sports stadiums to the tune of $3.2  billion federal  taxpayer dollars since 2000. But because *high-income  bond holders  receive a windfall gain for holding municipal bonds*, the  resulting loss  in total revenue to the *federal government* is even  larger at *$3.7  billion*.”

----------


## Zippyjuan

> And that should change, and it is even more important that it should change for the anti-American NFL.
> 
> And what part of federal don't you understand?
> 
> “All together, the  *federal government* has subsidized newly constructed  or majorly renovated  professional sports stadiums to the tune of $3.2  billion federal  taxpayer dollars since 2000. But because *high-income  bond holders  receive a windfall gain for holding municipal bonds*, the  resulting loss  in total revenue to the *federal government* is even  larger at *$3.7  billion*.”


The Federal Government not taxing municipal bonds doesn't give money to the NFL. Are you suggesting that municipal bonds should not be tax exempt?

----------


## Swordsmyth

> The Federal Government not taxing municipal bonds doesn't give money to the NFL. Are you suggesting that municipal bonds should not be tax exempt?


It does when the cities are financing the teams and yes I am.

----------


## Zippyjuan

The tax break is going to the city, not the team or the league.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> The tax break is going to the city, not the team or the league.


It makes investors more willing to buy debt that is being used to finance the team, that makes the debt cheaper and that makes the city more willing to finance the team and the team benefits.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> It makes investors more willing to buy debt that is being used to finance the team, that makes the debt cheaper and that makes the city more willing to finance the team and the team benefits.


Sorry, I was inaccurate.  The tax break doesn't go to the city but to whomever buys the municipal bonds- they are the ones who do not have to pay taxes.  That removes it one step farther from the benefits going to the league or the team.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Sorry, I was inaccurate.  The tax break doesn't go to the city but to whomever buys the municipal bonds- they are the ones who do not have to pay taxes.  That removes it one step farther from the benefits going to the league or the team.


It makes investors more willing to buy debt that is being used to  *finance the team*, that makes the debt cheaper and that makes the city  more willing to *finance the team* and *the team benefits*.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> It makes investors more willing to buy debt that is being used to  *finance the team*, that makes the debt cheaper and that makes the city  more willing to *finance the team* and *the team benefits*.


The team benefits from the city giving them money and possibly tax breaks.  Muni bonds being tax free does not benefit the team (it may allow the city to sell the bonds at a tiny fraction lower interest rate).

----------


## enhanced_deficit

This NFL kneeling controversy seems to be taking a life of its own and working its way into strange situations if this is factual:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTCcf2_5yIw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O72WGadfKWo

Dolphins O-line coach Chris Foerster resigns after video shows him snorting white powder
ABC News Oct 9, 2017

----------


## Madison320

> This NFL kneeling controversy seems to be taking a life of its own and working its way into strange situations if this is factual:


I think it could end up in court as a 1st amendment issue if the owners try to force the players to stand. On a related issue I read an article in Sports Illustrated that ESPN probably can't fire their reporter, Jemele Hill (she was suspended for calling for an NFL boycott)) because Connecticut has a law that private companies can't fire employees for their political beliefs.

From the SI article:

"Last Thursday morning James Bhandary-Alexander, the staff attorney for New Haven Legal Assistance, sent an email note to this column on ESPN commentator Jemele Hill, and what ESPN might face should it attempt disciplinary action on Hill that involved dismissal. His note came a couple of days after White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said that tweets by Hill calling President Donald Trump a white supremacist among other things would be a fireable offense, according to Sanders (and thus the White House).

Bhandary-Alexander said that he believed if ESPN attempted to fire Hill it would likely violate Connecticut law. Said Bhandary-Alexander. We have a statute (Conn. Gen. Stat. 31-51q) *that explicitly protects employeeseven in the private sectorfrom retaliation for any First Amendment protected speech*. In other words, we enjoy free speech protections vis-à-vis both the government and our private employers. The statute protects our rights as employees to express ourselves on matters of public concern, such as whether the President is a racist. This hasnt been mentioned but would certainly limit ESPNs ability to discipline her without violating the law. I use this statute often to protect low-wage workers attempting to assert their rights, but it protects her, too."


https://www.si.com/tech-media/2017/0...spn-discipline

Of course it's totally anti liberty for the government to interfere with private contracts between individuals, although I'm guessing there's a few here that disagree.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> *Trump: End Tax Breaks For Anti-American NFL*
> 
> https://www.infowars.com/president-t...-american-nfl/


Another solution that has been offered is for the taxpayer subsidies at  the state and local level to be considered taxable income by the federal  government.

https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnew...nfl-tax-breaks

----------


## PierzStyx

> It's blood and soil.  A group of people, bound together through kinship and love, and the homeland that they've built together.  You don't have it.  I know.  Not everyone does.  You're off gallivanting in China and here, there, and everywhere, and could hardly be brought to care less about any particular land, or as you derisively call it "dirt under your feet."  That is: something to spit upon.  Nothing more.
> 
> But humans in general, for better or worse, are different than you, Christian.  They love to have a sense of place, they will have a feeling of pride in the town their family built back in the 1800s, or reverence for the rough stone house their great-grandfather built with his two bare hands.
> 
> 
> 
> Blood and soil.  Yes, blood and soil.  It's fiction to you.  It's fiction to rabbits.  They see it as just a mass, incomprehensible delusion, as atheists see a belief in God as being.  But wolves are territorial.  As are more typical humans, long-term viable humans.  They feel a deep and abiding connection to their property, to their communities, to the miniature worlds which they so painstakingly build.  They feel a deep connection to their past, their ancestors.  They feel a strong -- a primary -- sense of duty and obligation regarding their future generations, their great-grand-children.
> 
> Note: not _the_ past, _the_ future, but _their_ past, _their_ future.  And in deed and very fact it shall be theirs, for the rabbit people have no future.  The future belongs to K.


Yes, by all means, let us abandon all reason and devolve back into mindless animals and act on pure instinct. Absolutely a genius idea. Of course, rabbits don't have nuclear weapons, so their little rabbit fights over territory claims won't result in the end of all life on Earth and human wars could. But, you know. _Whatever_. Just embrace that Natural Man.

Never mind that humans have the rational power to overcome all that meaningless territorial bull crap.Never mind we have the power to build bigger, greater, and wealthier societies than have ever existed in all of history by embracing each other, embracing free trade, and embracing human liberty. Never mind that your "long term viable humans" is a completely horse$#@! argument trying to wallpaper over the fact that it is these same arguments that have lead to the political, economic, and social retardation of the human race and the slaughter of untold millions through all of history. You kind are all the same. You imagine yourself as big bad wolves when in reality all of you are yapping chihuahuas, threatened by the rising tide of humanity and scared of just how overwhelming the future of humanity really is, so much so that you insist on trying to drag us back to the Middle Ages. If it weren't for the fact that you're willing to murder others for your cause, excuse me "kill to defend the _Volk_" you would just be pathetic.

Your kind of thinking is absolutely embarrassment Fascism has no place among rational, intelligent people. Especially not those who embrace Liberty. Indeed, you cannot claim to believe what you do and be a defender of liberty. Your racial identity politics belongs with the rest of the Leftist SJW propaganda- in the garbage.

And you're totally unworthy to bear the name Helmuth Hübener, a 16 year old who was murdered for defying the Nazi regime (https://bycommonconsent.com/2014/10/...his-execution/) while arguing the first plank of the National Socialist program:

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> Yes, and Helmuth Hubener was executed because he was a "danger to the war effort".  So I'm sure you agree with the decision to behead him...


I respect *his* decision that *he* made as to how *he* was going to live his one, irreplaceable life, with courage and integrity.

That's one thing I've been on about the last year or so on the forum. Yes?  You have perhaps noticed?  I hope so. It's that: let's worry about our own actions and our own lives rather than obsess -- Constantly!  IMPOTENTLY! -- about what other people really ought to be doing, how the world ought to be run if you had your way, bla, blabla, blabla.

You have already earned your PhD. in complaining, CA. Many times over. So have I. So have most of us here on RPF. It's done. You earned it. You can't get a second PhD. in the same subject. Time to move on. Agreed?

Agreed. 

So do you get me yet?  Hitler's gonna do what Hitler's gonna do; all I can decide is what *I* am going-a do.  Capesche?  Feel free, by all means, to rail impotently against dead leaders of whom you disapprove.  Right on!  Fight the man, brother!  Don't misunderstand my posts.  I'm just describing reality, not necessarily taking a position on it. Stating facts, not making facts -- in other words: don't blame me!  In war, you try to win. Atrocities happen.  The atrocity is kind of when the war is declared, actually. You really wanna whine about  humanely interred Nips having to be in some camps?  How about mountains of bodies of *dead* American, Australian, and other nationalities strewn all across the Pacific, hundreds of thousands of carcasses?  Were their precious rights being violated?  Maybe slightly?  How about the lovely pile of bodies under the fifth story window, of women raped and then thrown out the window?  A new one added every few minutes.  How about babies getting napalmed?

You wanna whine about being violated in war, get some bloody perspective.

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> I respect *his* decision that *he* made as to how *he* was going to live his one, irreplaceable life, with courage and integrity.
> 
> That's one thing I've been on about the last year or so on the forum. Yes?  You have perhaps noticed?  I hope so. It's that: let's worry about our own actions and our own lives rather than obsess -- Constantly!  IMPOTENTLY! -- about what other people really ought to be doing, how the world ought to be run if you had your way, bla, blabla, blabla.
> 
> You have already earned your PhD. in complaining, CA. Many times over. So have I. So have most of us here on RPF. It's done. You earned it. You can't get a second PhD. in the same subject. Time to move on. Agreed?
> 
> Agreed. 
> 
> So do you get me yet?  Hitler's gonna do what Hitler's gonna do; all I can decide is what *I* am going-a do.  Capesche?  Feel free, by all means, to rail impotently against dead leaders of whom you disapprove.  Right on!  Fight the man, brother!  Don't misunderstand my posts.  I'm just describing reality, not necessarily taking a position on it. Stating facts, not making facts -- in other words: don't blame me!  In war, you try to win. Atrocities happen.  The atrocity is kind of when the war is declared, actually. You really wanna whine about  humanely interred Nips having to be in some camps?  How about mountains of bodies of *dead* American, Australian, and other nationalities strewn all across the Pacific, hundreds of thousands of carcasses?  Were their precious rights being violated?  Maybe slightly?  How about the lovely pile of bodies under the fifth story window, of women raped and then thrown out the window?  A new one added every few minutes.  How about babies getting napalmed?
> ...


So that's your explanation?  "Atrocities happen"?  Like they were just random events that happened by pure chance.  No one is responsible.  No one is "guilty"...

Oh, so some other bad guys do bad things so it's OK for you to do bad things to others who did not hurt you.  Ya, live that way if you want.  I don't want to be around you for sure.  You might decide that I'm one of the people you want to do atrocities to (oh, excuse me, they would just "happen" to me...)

Oh, and for the sake of poor Helmuth Hubener please change your forum name.  You are making the poor guy roll over in his grave...

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> Yes, by all means, let us abandon all reason and devolve back into mindless animals and act on pure instinct. Absolutely a genius idea.


 Just think of me as the Animal whisperer. Rabbits like you don't understand the wolves.  The wolves, for the most part, don't understand the rabbits. I understand them both. I am a valuable bridge. I can help you to understand a whole new large set of people that heretofore you have found inexplicable as "mindless animals."  They're not. So, Ask Me Anything!

Again, I'll tell you what I told CA: don't shoot (insult, smear, hate...) the messenger. I'm just passing on info about reality. Explaining how come some people -- a lot of people -- the vast majority of people on this planet of ours -- -- DO care about country and find it a highly meaningful concept in their lives.  This is a facet of reality. Don't you think it would be fascinating to learn about it?  Ignorance is.... so dull!




> You kind are all the same, trying to drag us back to the Middle Ages.


 Now, now, we're not getting "collectivist" now, are we?  Good bet if you met me, you would not identify me as, much less lump me in with, whatever "kind" you think you've ever-so-neatly taxonomied me as.

And weren't you trying to tell us all how great and wonderful the Middle Ages were a while back?  Can't'cha keep your stories straight, teach'?  Why don't you teach us all something about the Middle Ages?  Just what is it that makes you hate the Middle Ages so bad?





> And you're totally unworthy to bear the name Helmuth Hübener.


 And yet, somehow it was I, and not thee, who chose him as my avatar!  Hmm.  How could that be, do you think, Prof?  The fact is, he and I share a lot of character, for better or worse.

----------


## Raginfridus

_Sports are h o m o, tackle a horse._ - Terry Davis, High Priest of TempleOS, quoting Mr. God

----------


## goldenequity

*Group calls for NFL boycott on Veterans Day – and already has 120,000 supporters
http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/10...00-supporters/*



The “Boycott the NFL” Facebook page has been “liked” by nearly 120,000, and is being followed by more than 122,000 people. 
The open community group simply explains, “Until millionaire football players stop protesting the National Anthem of the United States, we’ll be here.”

The group wants members to not watch or listen to any NFL games on Nov. 12 and 13 in deference to Veterans Day. 
This would affect all Sunday NFL games and the Monday Night Football game.

*https://www.facebook.com/Boycott-The...9285205413259/*

----------


## tod evans

Friend of mine sent me this in an e-mail:




> To everyone who has served or has a relative that has served and died for this country, please read and pass on to everyone on your e-mail list. Mark the day on your calendar and boycott the NFL!!!
> 
> National boycott of the NFL on Sunday November 12th, Veterans Day Weekend.
> You asked how we can get the word out. This is how the American Legion and the VFW are getting the word out. Will other American organizations follow with their membership?
> To the NFL players: You graduated high school in 2011. Your teenage years were a struggle. You grew up on the wrong side of the tracks. Your mother was the leader of the family and worked tirelessly to keep a roof over your head and food on your plate. Academics were a struggle for you and your grades were mediocre at best. The only thing that made you stand out is you weighed 225 lbs and could run 40 yards in 4.2 seconds while carrying a football. Your best friend was just like you, except he didn’t play football. Instead of going to football practice after school, he went to work at McDonalds for minimum wage. You were recruited by all the big colleges and spent every weekend of your senior year making visits to universities where coaches and boosters tried to convince you their school was best. They laid out the red carpet for you. Your best friend worked double shifts at Mickey D’s. College was not an option for him.  On the day you signed with Big State University, your best friend signed paperwork with his Army recruiter.  You went to summer workouts.  He went to basic training.
> You spent the next four years living in the athletic dorm, eating at the training table. You spent your Saturdays on the football field, cheered on by adoring fans. Tutors attended to your every academic need. You attended class when you felt like it. Sure, you worked hard. You lifted weights, ran sprints, studied plays, and soon became one of the top football players in the country. Your best friend was assigned to the 101st Airborne Division. While you were in college, he deployed to Iraq once and Afghanistan twice.  He became a Sergeant and led a squad of 19 year old soldiers who grew up just like he did.  He shed his blood in Afghanistan and watched young American's give their lives, limbs, and innocence for the USA. 
> You went to the NFL combine and scored off the charts. You hired an agent and waited for draft day. You were drafted in the first round and your agent immediately went to work, ensuring that you received the most money possible. You signed for $16 million although you had never played a single down of professional football. Your best friend re-enlisted in the Army for four more years. As a combat tested sergeant, he will be paid $32,000 per year.
> You will drive a Ferrari on the streets of South Beach. He will ride in the back of a Blackhawk helicopter with 10 other combat loaded soldiers. You will sleep at the Ritz. He will dig a hole in the ground and try to sleep. You will “make it rain” in the club. He will pray for rain as the temperature reaches 120 degrees.
> On Sunday, you will run into a stadium as tens of thousands of fans cheer and yell your name. For your best friend, there is little difference between Sunday and any other day of the week. There are no adoring fans.. There are only people trying to kill him and his soldiers. Every now and then, he and his soldiers leave the front lines and “go to the rear” to rest. He might be lucky enough to catch an NFL game on TV.  When the National Anthem plays and you take a knee, he will jump to his feet and salute the television.  While you protest the unfairness of life in the United States, he will give thanks to God that he has the honor of defending his great country.
> ...

----------


## otherone

> Never mind that humans have the rational power to overcome all that meaningless territorial bull crap


LOL WUT?

----------


## Swordsmyth

*Lousiana Cops Boycott Ford Over Support For Kneeling NFL Players*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-12/lousiana-cops-boycott-ford-over-support-kneeling-nfl-players

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> *Lousiana Cops Boycott Ford Over Support For Kneeling NFL Players*
> 
> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-1...ng-nfl-players


Now if only it were possible to boycott the cops...

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> *Group calls for NFL boycott on Veterans Day – and already has 120,000 supporters
> http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/10...00-supporters/*
> 
> 
> 
> The “Boycott the NFL” Facebook page has been “liked” by nearly 120,000, and is being followed by more than 122,000 people. 
> The open community group simply explains, “Until millionaire football players stop protesting the National Anthem of the United States, we’ll be here.”
> 
> The group wants members to not watch or listen to any NFL games on Nov. 12 and 13 in deference to Veterans Day. 
> ...


Personally I want to boycott the games for a different reason.  I'm sick and tired of going to a game and getting the goonerment propaganda during the pre-game AND during some of the commercials.  They always want to drag out some veteran and ask everyone to honor him for his "service".  Until only a few years back none of this was an issue because it was not covered at games (or at least not very often).  It's only since 2008 or so when the goonerment started PAYING sports venues to promote pro-goonerment propaganda that this has become an issue. 

It's quite appropriate that there is this big anti-goonerment backlash from some people who are sick and tired of the worship service.  I will pick my own "god", thank you very much...

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Friend of mine sent me this in an e-mail:


By Veteran's Day this will be "old news" (it already is for most people) and nobody will care.  The people signing up to not attend any games that weekend were probably not going to a game in the first place.

----------


## Zippyjuan

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2...states-america




> *Ex-Green Beret Nate Boyer writes open letter to Trump, Kaepernick, NFL and America*
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Every Single American,
> 
> Every. Single. American. Including President Trump, Colin Kaepernick, and my brothers in arms overseas who are wondering, "what in the hell is going on back there?" I'm sitting in the same chair, in the same apartment that I sat in almost a year ago when I wrote an open letter to Colin Kaepernick.* I was hurt when I saw him sitting on the bench during the national anthem, but I'm much more hurt now. Not by him, not by where we're at now with the protests, but by us.*
> 
> Simply put,* it seems like we just hate each other;* and that is far more painful to me than any protest, or demonstration, or rally, or tweet. We're told to pick a side, there's a line drawn in the sand "are you with us or against us?" It's just not who we are, or at least who we're supposed to be; we're supposed to be better than that, we're Americans. This doesn't even seem to be about right or wrong, but more about right or left.
> ...

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> So that's your explanation?  "Atrocities happen"?


 Explanation of what?  Of war?  Certainly. I would think the atrociousness of war would be quite trivially obvious. Surely you are not going to contest that?  So, is there something else you thought I was explaining or would like me to explain?  Because I'd be, like, happy to!




> Like they were just random events that happened by pure chance.  No one is responsible.  No one is "guilty"...


 Bzzt, wrong!  I believe in morality, you see. I am hopelessly old-fashioned. I, unlike most people you know, believe in objective and absolute morality. I most certainly do blame and condemn, and do so wholeheartedly and, like you I think, a whole lot more consistently than most. So whoopdedoo.  Yey for us. Let's sit around and listen to the perfection of our condemnation.  I perceive, actually, that is precisely what you want to do, and my failure to do so has caused you misunderstanding, confusion, and agitation. So let's condemn and thus clear things up again, shall we?

I do not approve of the Japanese internment camps. I condemn them. I once even wrote a poetic lament about this wrong. I have great sympathy for those who had to suffer this wrong. People who have committed no crime should not have to be imprisoned. That is unjust. In a perfect world, it shouldn't happen. And, it goes without saying, the decision-makers who decided to do this are culpable for their injustice, and to some lesser extent those henchmen who carried out their superiors' unjust wishes. 

Capesche?  Are we happy now?  Explaining is different than approving. I can explain something without approving of it. For example, with this, I would just say that if you find yourself an expatriot  in a foreign country, say, China, and your home country, the United States, decided to launch a suicide bombing attack on China and kill thousands of her soldiers, you might be wise to _get thineself up and out of China!_. And if then China declares total war on the US, in what anyone can see will be a difficult and protracted conflict?  Yeah, it might be smart to leave.  Yeah, they may develop a bit of an Anti-American sentiment. Ya think?

I'm just talking practicalities. Obviously they _shouldn't_ be at all suspicious of the 100%, dyed-in-the-wool, gold and red true blue through and through ChristianAnarchist.  But _will_ they?  You and I may know you're 100% loyal to China, but will they?




> Oh, so some other bad guys do bad things so it's OK for you to do bad things to others who did not hurt you.  Ya, live that way if you want.  I don't want to be around you for sure.  You might decide that I'm one of the people you want to do atrocities to (oh, excuse me, they would just "happen" to me...)


 Wow, all of a sudden thou knowest me like a brother!  Seriously, I considered adding the thousands of Japanese bodies to the dead. I guess if I had you would have understood better?  The point was not justification/recrimination, but rather contrast of severity in:

Being locked up (wrong, an outrage, yes, we know), vs.
Being raped and thrown out a window. Or otherwise murdered en masse. 

Which, getting murdered en masse, sums up very well what war *is*, CA.

That is all. I hope I have made myself more clear. And how did we get off on this?  Circling back to that, so as to be even more clear:

* In war, countries are going to do awful things. Namely: murder, and repeatedly.  I think we can agree murder is a really bad thing?
* If you propose that no flag of any country that has ever done awful thing in war -- that is, that has ever been involved in a war -- is worthy of respect or patriotism, then
* Your list of potentially worthwhile flags is approximately: Zero. That's OK, of course: thou art an anarchist (as am I). Just realize that if that's the perspective you want to talk about this from, it makes anything thou hast to say on it completely devoid of meaning.

----------


## helmuth_hubener

Second point, to Imaginary-Pierzstyx who would be capable of understanding the following argument and might actually come back to this thread and make an interesting response to it:

Elementary Logic:

Hitler was a nationalist. You deludedly imagine all nationalists are Nazis. Hitler was a vegetarian. Are all vegetarians therefore Nazis?

Case study:

There are a billion people in India. About 95% of them are rabid nationalists. Rabid. The remaining 5% are infants under two years old about whom we have no definite information regarding their political leanings. Virtually no Indians, however, are Nazis. A large percentage of them have never even heard of Hitler. It is safe to say that Hitler and Nazi-ism exercise  exceedingly little influence in Indian society. 

Maybe they'll do better with the infants.

----------


## helmuth_hubener

Oh, in the spirit of explaining the concept of patriotism and community spirit to those are _not_ living in Calcutta but are instead Smart, Superior Westerners(TM) and who thus think it's a stupid delusion:




"We know we belong to the land, and the land we belong to is grand." So..... Nazis?  Unthinking animalistic brutes, no doubt, at least.  Yes?

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> Explanation of what?  Of war?  Certainly. I would think the atrociousness of war would be quite trivially obvious. Surely you are not going to contest that?  So, is there something else you thought I was explaining or would like me to explain?  Because I'd be, like, happy to!
> 
>    Bzzt, wrong!  I believe in morality, you see. I am hopelessly old-fashioned. I, unlike most people you know, believe in objective and absolute morality. I most certainly do blame and condemn, and do so wholeheartedly and, like you I think, a whole lot more consistently than most. So whoopdedoo.  Yey for us. Let's sit around and listen to the perfection of our condemnation.  I perceive, actually, that is precisely what you want to do, and my failure to do so has caused you misunderstanding, confusion, and agitation. So let's condemn and thus clear things up again, shall we?
> 
> I do not approve of the Japanese internment camps. I condemn them. I once even wrote a poetic lament about this wrong. I have great sympathy for those who had to suffer this wrong. People who have committed no crime should not have to be imprisoned. That is unjust. In a perfect world, it shouldn't happen. And, it goes without saying, the decision-makers who decided to do this are culpable for their injustice, and to some lesser extent those henchmen who carried out their superiors' unjust wishes. 
> 
> Capesche?  Are we happy now?  Explaining is different than approving. I can explain something without approving of it. For example, with this, I would just say that if you find yourself an expatriot  in a foreign country, say, China, and your home country, the United States, decided to launch a suicide bombing attack on China and kill thousands of her soldiers, you might be wise to _get thineself up and out of China!_. And if then China declares total war on the US, in what anyone can see will be a difficult and protracted conflict?  Yeah, it might be smart to leave.  Yeah, they may develop a bit of an Anti-American sentiment. Ya think?
> 
> I'm just talking practicalities. Obviously they _shouldn't_ be at all suspicious of the 100%, dyed-in-the-wool, gold and red true blue through and through ChristianAnarchist.  But _will_ they?  You and I may know you're 100% loyal to China, but will they?
> ...


Deception and lies.  I'm surprised at you, and you claim to be "anarchist".  Maybe you need to look that term up.  You claim I'm 100% for China??  Why do you speak such lies??  I'm not 100% (or even 1%) FOR any fiction called a "country" and you would know that (100%) if you read anything I've ever written.  For you it's obvious you can't follow a subject and there's really no point in this back and forth with you because every post you change directions like a rabbit running from prey.  I'm glad you can avoid the prey but hey, I'm not preying on you man!!  I have no interest in wasting my time responding to your constant deviation from the subject at hand (which was, if you can look back that far) all about doing crime in the name of the (fiction) state and claiming it's ok.  Spoiler - it's NOT!

----------


## H. E. Panqui

helmuth asserts: _"...I most certainly do blame and condemn, and do so wholeheartedly..."_

...oh, come on!...you do a lot more than that, helmuth!!!...you also facilite massive taxation to carry out your authoritarian republicrat 'sentences'...i care little if YOU blame or condemn me...it's when you authorize ?your republicrat cruds to debauch the treasury in order to feed your dog$ of war minion$...[pssst helmuth, the banksters are top dog$]

----------


## enhanced_deficit

In the spirit of national togtherness, how about Obama give Trump a hand in resolving this issue between Trump and NFL owners/kneelers on respect for flag and anthem while troops are out there in the harms way?
He had negitiation skills and some success  in working with NFL owners.


*Father of Fallen Soldier Says White House Turned Down Request for Obama Phone Call*

        Published                     January 07, 2011
        Shown here is  Sgt. Sean Collins, who was killed Dec. 12 in Afghanistan.                                                                  (Q13  FOX)                                                       

It was bad enough that after Sgt. Sean Collins was killed in Afghanistan his parents received a senator's letter of condolence with the wrong name. 
                                                                But the   soldier's father says the White House added to the sting by  subsequently  turning down a request for President Obama to personally  call Collins'  mother. 

Pat  Collins, a retired lieutenant colonel, told Q13 FOX in Seattle   that  the family was told last month that the president could not fit  it   "into his schedule" to call mother Linda Collins about their son's    death. Pat Collins, who initially made the request with the White  House,   said he would've understood, except for the fact that around  the same   time, Obama found an opening in his schedule for a  much-publicized  phone  conversation with Eagles owner Jeffrey Lurie. 

                                                                "He is   the president of the United States, and he's a  very busy man, very   important man -- but then to find out that he fit  it into his schedule   to call the president of the Eagles to thank him  for giving Michael   Vick a second chance, that kind of burns a little bit," Collins said. 
After the attack, the Collins family received a letter of condolence   from Washington Sen. Maria Cantwell. The top of the letter got Sgt. Sean   Collins' name right, but the final paragraph referred to him as  "Bryn."  

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...ama-phone.html

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> Deception and lies.  I'm surprised at you, and you claim to be "anarchist".  Maybe you need to look that term up.  You claim I'm 100% for China??  Why do you speak such lies??


 Oh, please; it was a hypothetical!  Gracious, has age dimmed you that much?  Give me back the old CA, the one who reads!




> I'm not 100% (or even 1%) FOR any fiction called a "country" and you would know that (100%) if you read anything I've ever written.


 OK, then in the hypothetical let's agree instead to swear to the Chinese government you are *100% disloyal to America.*. That you have completely disavowed your ex-homeland, America, and are totally willing and up for being traitorous to her.  That would be a totally accurate description of your loyalties, just restating what you said above, and thus would not be offensive at all to you, yes?  (Not that a hypothetical used to make an illustrative point should have been offensive to you in the first place, but I aim to please!)




> For you it's obvious you can't follow a subject and there's really no point in this back and forth with you because every post you change directions like a rabbit running from prey.  I'm glad you can avoid the prey but hey, I'm not preying on you man!!  I have no interest in wasting my time responding to your constant deviation from the subject at hand (which was, if you can look back that far) all about doing crime in the name of the (fiction) state and claiming it's ok.  Spoiler - it's NOT!


Thank you sincerely for the feedback!  I do _try_ to slow down and dumb down (somewhat) in order to be understood (sometimes) and I see that in this case I was still significantly exceeding the speed limit. No worries. I accept my ticket and learn from the mistake. But really and truly, I said about a dozen different times already in my thread with you the Big Reveal you tell us in the last sentence, and I did so in a whole bunch of different ways, just for redundancy, to be clear, ya know?  I didn't know it needed a "spoiler alert" and so simply revealed it freely without warning. And I of course have said it hundreds of times over the years here on RPF, so really I shouldn't have to say it again ever, and did so mainly to make you feel better. You see, I have read your posts, CA --and remember!  I can keep track of stuff like that and remember who's who, at least when the forum collapses down to a few dozen persons, as it has. I do know you, CA -- and like you!  And agree with you on almost everything. You, it appears, just do not know me.

No worries.

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> OK, then in the hypothetical let's agree instead to swear to the Chinese government you are *100% disloyal to America.*. That you have completely disavowed your ex-homeland, America, and are totally willing and up for being traitorous to her.  That would be a totally accurate description of your loyalties, just restating what you said above, and thus would not be offensive at all to you, yes?  (Not that a hypothetical used to make an illustrative point should have been offensive to you in the first place, but I aim to please!)


Ummmm, why in the world would anyone take u up on this "hypothetical"??  The whole thing sounds foolish.  Do you even have a point??

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> Ummm, Do you even have a point??


 Do I ever!!

How about this: You, as a quasi-expatriot with no overwhelming interest in and absolutely _zero_ love or affection for
America, have no reason to get worked up and have such a strong opinion on this. It's, like, not your beef. Ne mying bye?  You come in here all bothered and want to put down all the Americans who express any affection for their homeland and its ideals. You call them fascist, anti-freedom idiots and strut and preen about how Anarchist you are. 'Look at my Stateless feathers; aren't they pretty?' You call the country that they love a fiction and a delusion.  It's a bad look, man. It's bad form. It makes you look bad, and it makes me look bad by association.

It's possible to be an anarchist without being a pompous jerk.

So, i gave you some of your own medicine. Only fair. And you didn't really like it, did you?  So, CA, how do you think all the "delusional" "anti-freedom" morons felt when you were posting some of the things you posted in this thread?

So, that's all. I can see both sides. I myself have an interesting perspective which thou couldst  not care less about and probably doesn't matter, so I won't go into it. But I assure you, that at minimum: I can see both sides. 

You may (though almost certainly do not, since in this thread  you seem to not remember anything about me) remember this thread we had with the other Christian___ on the board:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...25#post5011125

How many times have *you* stayed conspicuously seated in a small group, or in a situation where people would really notice? Hmm?  I have years of real-life experience being more hard-core on this flag issue than you will _ever_ be.

And yet.....

And yet I can also see the virtue and value and sincerity in honoring one's country. I can relate to those who sometimes get a tear in their eye from the Red, White, and Blue.  In fact, I'm one of them. More than once as I have sat for the Star Spangled Banner have I been filled with deep emotions and patriotism far stronger and more passionate than, in all likelihood, any of those standing half-heartedly.

You know, the Ron Paul campaign had the motto Hope_ for America_. So many of the songs written for Ron by his passionate supporters waxed poetic about and used the symbology of _America_. It ain't a sin to love America, CA. I promise you. It ain't a sin.

Call me simple-minded, but I'll just leave you with this:

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> Do I ever!!
> 
> How about this: You, as a quasi-expatriot with no overwhelming interest in and absolutely _zero_ love or affection for
> America, have no reason to get worked up and have such a strong opinion on this. It's, like, not your beef. Ne mying bye?  You come in here all bothered and want to put down all the Americans who express any affection for their homeland and its ideals. You call them fascist, anti-freedom idiots and strut and preen about how Anarchist you are. 'Look at my Stateless feathers; aren't they pretty?' You call the country that they love a fiction and a delusion.  It's a bad look, man. It's bad form. It makes you look bad, and it makes me look bad by association.
> 
> It's possible to be an anarchist without being a pompous jerk.
> 
> So, i gave you some of your own medicine. Only fair. And you didn't really like it, did you?  So, CA, how do you think all the "delusional" "anti-freedom" morons felt when you were posting some of the things you posted in this thread?
> 
> ...


Ok, you're right. I'm a pompous jerk for pointing out the truth that your (and everyone else's) "country" is a legal fiction.

But - your country is a legal fiction...

----------


## Anti Federalist

> *So please, no more lines in the sand, not at home, not among our people. No more choosing sides, no more "for or against."*


A strange thought, coming from a man who made it his profession and life's business to violently destroy and kill people who found themselves on the wrong side of the line in the sand from Uncle Sucker.




> Simply put, it seems like we just hate each other; and that is far more painful to me than any protest, or demonstration, or rally, or tweet. We're told to pick a side, there's a line drawn in the sand "are you with us or against us?"


Yes, that we do, and that is the human condition, no matter how much you all hold hands, sing "Kum-by-ya" and want to think otherwise.

The solution is not to use heavy handed government tactics of forcing people together, or SJW violence, but rather, *to let people be*, and let them live and associate with who they want to live and associate with.

How radical, amirite?

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## Warrior_of_Freedom

Am I the only one that finds it ironic the nfl players criticize Trump while a lot of those players have scandals that include BEATING THE $#@! OUT OF THEIR SPOUSE?

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## ChristianAnarchist

> Am I the only one that finds it ironic the nfl players criticize Trump while a lot of those players have scandals that include BEATING THE $#@! OUT OF THEIR SPOUSE?


Yeah, I don't agree with putting the value of anyone higher than others but that doesn't mean someone can't do things better than the next guy.  These guys are good at what they do and I like to watch a good football game!  Used to think they aren't worth the $$$ they are getting but then we have lots of patients who have injuries they suffered in H.S. and college football programs that dog them their entire lives.  They take chances out there for the entertainment of us all and they are worth what they are paid because they will only be able to work maybe 5 to 10 years on average so what they earn will have to support them and their injuries for the rest of their lives.  Yeah, they make more than I do but hell, I don't have to deal with a 320 pound lineman knocking me over at full speed and slamming me down on my head and back...

They are regular guys and some of them have temper problems, drinking problems, drug problems, sex infatuation (is that even a problem??) and some of them act out in ways that need to be punished one way or another...

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## Danke

*@TheTexan;


Nearly Every Texans Player Kneeled During Today's National Anthem*


https://www.yahoo.com/news/nearly-ev...212831592.html


In the wake of their teams owner referring to them as inmates, nearly every member of the Houston Texans took a knee during Sundays pre-game national anthem.
Save but a handful players, the Texans participated in a stunning display of unity ahead of their game against the Seattle Seahawks at CenturyLink Field in Washington. ESPN estimates that approximately 10 of the 50-plus-member team remained standing.

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## ChristianAnarchist

> *TheTexan
> 
> 
> Nearly Every Texans Player Kneeled During Today's National Anthem*
> 
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/nearly-ev...212831592.html
> 
> 
> ...


Just wait until more black people learn about the 3rd verse of the "National Anthem" and about the racist ideas of Keys.  You think there will be any blacks who still stand for it?  They wanted to make a big deal out of the "disrespect" for the anthem and guess what?  It's going to come back to bite them.  I give it 5 years and there will be a new anthem to replace this racist one...

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## Madison320

> *@TheTexan;
> 
> 
> Nearly Every Texans Player Kneeled During Today's National Anthem*
> 
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/nearly-ev...212831592.html
> 
> 
> ...


More evidence that the protesting players have a socialist bent. The "inmates running the asylum" comment has nothing to do with race. It's about the rights of the owners to run their business.

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## ChristianAnarchist

It's amazing how many people who call themselves "Christian" fall for the idolatry of state worship.  Show me anywhere where Christ saluted a flag, said a "pledge", or honored a "king" (other than God)...

Honor your father and your mother, the goonerment is neither...

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## Swordsmyth

*Marshawn Lynch Stands Only For Mexican National Anthem**Afro-Mexicans are treated like garbage and subject to extreme, racist violence in Mexico. Lynch has no problem standing for their national anthem.*As I said, this is purely about hating America.


More at: https://www.infowars.com/marshawn-ly...tional-anthem/

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## Zippyjuan

He missed the Miami Dolphins kneeling during the US anthem while standing during the UK anthem at their game in London Week #4.  Guess Fox didn't cover it.   

Lynch didn't have anything to protest with Mexico I guess (game was in Mexico hence the playing of that anthem). 

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/11/19/...iders-patriots




> Players who have taken a knee or sat during the national anthem the past two seasons have done so to protest police brutality and systemic injustices against people of color in the United States.
> 
> That’s why Lynch stood for the Mexican national anthem.* He’s not a citizen of that nation, and has nothing to protest as far as what goes on within their country.*
> 
> It’s *similar to what the Miami Dolphins did in London against the Saints at Wembley, where players kneeled for the U.S. anthem, and stood for the British anthem.*
> 
> Because this isn’t a protest of anthems or nations, it’s a protest against inequality.
> 
> Player protests have been used by the president and vice president to try and score political points with their conservative base. He tweeted about Lynch on Monday morning.
> ...


He only seems to tweet about black athletes covered on Fox News.

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## Occam's Banana

> I do not approve of the Japanese internment camps. I condemn them. I once even wrote a poetic lament about this wrong. I have great sympathy for those who had to suffer this wrong. People who have committed no crime should not have to be imprisoned. That is unjust. In a perfect world, it shouldn't happen. And, it goes without saying, the decision-makers who decided to do this are culpable for their injustice, _and to some lesser extent those henchmen who carried out their superiors' unjust wishes_.


I agree with you 99% here. Replace "lesser" with "greater" and I would agree with you 100%.

I think it's the henchmen who are the most actionably culpable.

If not for order-following minions - who are, after all, where the "rubber meets the road" -  the relatively few order-giving decision makers at the top of the "chain of obedience" could do little more than spin their wheels uselessly. They'd be incapable of achieving "traction" - i.e., of committing crimes greater than those able to be perpetrated by any other individual or small group. Without their underlings, I would not be surprised if most such would-be criminals turned out to be little more than malicious cowards unwilling to get their own hands dirty (_à la_ Charles Manson, RIH).

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## AZJoe



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## Anti Globalist

Are NFL players still protesting?

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## TheCount

Bump

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## Anti Globalist

Sports leagues need to stop getting involved in politics.  The only thing that does is turn people away.

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