# Start Here > Guest Forum >  We need to stop viewing taxation as theft and start viewing it as payment for services

## Boshembechle

Taxation is in essence payment for a service that is provided by the state. If more Americans starting having this perspective, then support for socialism would increase. I would much rather pay the government for a service I know I am guaranteed, than pay a private businesses who would not help me if I couldn't pay.

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## BuddyRey

I felt exactly the same way that you do about taxation a few years ago.  I'm not saying that hanging around here long enough necessarily guarantees that you'll change your opinion, but it worked for me.

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## kcchiefs6465



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## rp08orbust

Taxation Protection money is in essence payment for a service that is provided by the state mafia. If more Americans start having this perspective, then support for socialism the mafia would increase. I would much rather pay the government mafia for a service I know I am guaranteed promised, than pay a private non-mafia businesses who would not help apply physical violence against me if I couldn't pay opted not be their customer.

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## newbitech

> Taxation is in essence payment for a service that is provided by the state. If more Americans starting having this perspective, then support for socialism would increase. I would much rather pay the government for a service I know I am guaranteed, than pay a private businesses who would not help me if I couldn't pay.


yeah, I think it would really help if we could also rally behind a charismatic leader and have her be our soul source of inspiration.  Then together, we could defeat all of America's enemies.

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

I'm starting to think the OP is a moderator/owner just having a little fun.

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## tod evans

> We need to stop viewing taxation as theft and start viewing it as payment for services


You do whatever you like including funding and using the leviathan of government...

Only do so with the understanding that you and your ilk are the problem many of us rail against.....

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## Ronin Truth

Services? If I didn't ask for it and don't want it and have to pay for it regardless then how can it possibly be services (so called)? 

Just go and extort the payment for the costs from the customers that want them.

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## mrsat_98

Have a look at this guys past posts... He is communist to the core, he even admits it back to his birth.

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## juleswin

If govt limited itself to things like roads, sewers, crime (with victims) fighting and courts, very few people will even notice it or vexed enough to oppose it. The problem now is that govts have increase their attention on non victim crimes, wars, corporate welfare, regulations that hurt business and infringe on our rights to freely associate. If govt want to stem the rise in opposition against it, then it better get small and out of our lives fast and as much as possible

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## pcosmar

> Have a look at this guys past posts... He is communist to the core, he even admits it back to his birth.


Yes,, I know.

I suspect he is trying to see how many red bars he can collect. Help him out.

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## willwash

Flame

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## Root

Is the War on Drugs (people) a service?

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## Henry Rogue

> Taxation is in essence payment for a service that is provided by the state. If more Americans starting having this perspective, then support for socialism would increase. I would much rather pay the government for a service I know I am guaranteed, than pay a private businesses who would not help me if I couldn't pay.


Why do you want people to suffer in agony?  Do you hate people that much?

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## luctor-et-emergo

> Taxation is in essence payment for a service that is provided by the state. If more Americans starting having this perspective, then support for socialism would increase. I would much rather pay the government for a service I know I am guaranteed, than pay a private businesses who would not help me if I couldn't pay.


I didn't know you could have multiple red rep bars... Well deserved though.

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## tod evans

> I didn't know you could have multiple red rep bars... Well deserved though.


I got a cute little red-rep from someone who took offense at my colorful language in another thread...

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## mrsat_98

> Is the War on Drugs (people) a service?


No its genocide and human trafficking, they are crimes.

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## Working Poor

If taxation is so awesome why are our roads and bridges in such bad shape? Anytime someone brings up being against taxation "roads and bridges" comes up. I think tax funds are being mishandled.

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## acptulsa

> If govt limited itself to things like roads, sewers, crime (with victims) fighting and courts, very few people will even notice it or vexed enough to oppose it. The problem now is that govts have increase their attention on non victim crimes, wars, corporate welfare, regulations that hurt [job creating _small_] business and infringe on our rights to freely associate. If govt want to stem the rise in opposition against it, then it better get small and out of our lives fast and as much as possible





> Is the War on Drugs (people) a service?





> No its genocide and human trafficking, they are crimes.





> If taxation is so awesome why are our roads and bridges in such bad shape? Anytime someone brings up being against taxation "roads and bridges" comes up. I think tax funds are being mishandled.


Deliberately trashing the economy, spying on us, putting more of the adult population in prison than any western nation since ever ever, making our cars worse, our food worse, protecting corporations from being sued by the people they harm with their pollution, lying to us, deliberately trashing our reputation around the world so we have to be afraid to travel, forcing us to use a currency we can't even try to save for our old age because it shrinks like wool in a hot dryer...

Payment for 'services' that only a fool could possibly want.  Gee whiz.

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## nayjevin

> Taxation is in essence payment for a service


The funds from taxation pay for stuff.

Is that stuff necessary?

Is that stuff best provided with other people's money?

Is it fair to make people pay for stuff if they don't want that stuff?




> that is provided by the state.


Does the state have a track record of doing an efficient job of providing?

Is there a legitimate state role to provide stuff?

What justification is there for a government to exceed the boundaries of the Constitution to get into the business of providing stuff?




> If more Americans starting having this perspective, then support for socialism would increase.


Socialism has not been seen to work on any scale near the size of a state, much less a country.




> I would much rather pay the government for a service I know I am guaranteed, than pay a private businesses who would not help me if I couldn't pay.


What services are guaranteed?  Who guarantees them?  Whatever your answer, this is the size of government that you want.

Would you rather go to the DMV for service?

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## acptulsa

> I would much rather pay the government for a service I know I am guaranteed, than pay a private businesses who would not help me if I couldn't pay.


Many private companies do charitable works.  Many.  More to the point, small businesses tend to be the best places to work for, in addition (when given a fighting chance) to creating the most jobs.

Government gives benefits to anyone who can fill out the form, no matter how little they need it, and to no one who can't fill out the form, no matter how much they need it.  It never helps people with head and hands and, most of all, heart.  Never.  And it gives the most to those who kick the most back to the lawmakers--in other words, those who need it the least.

I say you're on the wrong side, and I don't want to sail in your ship of fools.  Am I not to be free to make that choice?

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## Suzanimal

> *Taxation is in essence payment for a service that is provided by the state*. If more Americans starting having this perspective, then support for socialism would increase. I would much rather pay the government for a service I know I am guaranteed, than pay a private businesses who would not help me if I couldn't pay.


Like this "service"? I'm pretty sure you could find someone to do that to you for free.

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## Cleaner44

> Taxation is in essence payment for a service that is provided by the state. If more Americans starting having this perspective, then support for socialism would increase. I would much rather pay the government for *a service I know I am guaranteed*, than pay a private businesses who would not help me if I couldn't pay.


Tell your bull$#@! to the victims of the Veterans Administration.

VA Scandal: Here are six vets' stories of anger and betrayal
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/...rans/12159687/

Acting VA Secretary Gibson says 18 vets on Phoenix wait list died
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/...enix/10023845/

Your guarantee of service is a lie.

I am thankful that more Americans don't have your perspective and that the support for socialism is declining.  People are seeing it for the scam that it is.  

I understand that you want the taxpayers to provide you with lots of free stuff, but doing it with violence and theft is the wrong way. 

Voluntary cooperation > Force at gunpoint

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## acptulsa

> Your guarantee of service is a lie.


This.

Your investment in Social Security will be there for you when you're old, except you'll be lucky to get back a fraction of it.  If you like your health insurance you can keep it, except it'll get a bunch of stuff you don't need or want added and the price will double.  You pay for police protection, but what you get is the federal government 'encouraging' your formerly community-based and community-sensitive cops to run about flash-banging children trying to eradicate meth so Big Pharma can sell more Xanax.

The only thing government can guarantee are further proofs that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

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## Working Poor

> Deliberately trashing the economy, spying on us, putting more of the adult population in prison than any western nation since ever ever, making our cars worse, our food worse, protecting corporations from being sued by the people they harm with their pollution, lying to us, deliberately trashing our reputation around the world so we have to be afraid to travel, forcing us to use a currency we can't even try to save for our old age because it shrinks like wool in a hot dryer...
> 
> Payment for 'services' that only a fool could possibly want.  Gee whiz.


Now I am going to have to go and neg rep the op thanks for reminding me why I wanted to when I first read this op drivel.

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## rp08orbust

> Deliberately trashing the economy, spying on us, putting more of the adult population in prison than any western nation since ever ever, making our cars worse, our food worse, protecting corporations from being sued by the people they harm with their pollution, lying to us, deliberately trashing our reputation around the world so we have to be afraid to travel, forcing us to use a currency we can't even try to save for our old age because it shrinks like wool in a hot dryer...


But RHODES!

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## Cleaner44

> Taxation is in essence payment for a service that is provided by the state. If more Americans starting having this perspective, then support for socialism would increase. *I would much rather pay the government* for a service I know I am guaranteed,* than pay a private businesses* who would not help me if *I couldn't pay*.


Wait, what?

So you are willing to pay the government for a service, because you want them to provide a service that you can't afford to pay?

If you have the money to pay the government, then why are you worried about not being able to pay?

Doesn't this really come down to the fact that you want others to pay for things that you aren't willing to pay for yourself?

In the real world when I pay a private business for service, I receive that service.  When I pay money to the government they instead send most of that money to their cronies and I only get a tiny portion of the service that I pay for.  

I don't think you have a problem paying a private business for services, you have a problem paying anyone... period.

Are you broke or just cheap?

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## euphemia

So, we pay the government to kill people in other countries?  Is there an opt out for that?

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## acptulsa

> So, we pay the government to kill people in other countries?  Is there an opt out for that?


Sure.  Just start paying these wonderful infallible gods up in Washington D.C., who want nothing in all this world but for us to be fat and healthy and happy, more brib--er, I mean _campaign contributions_ than the oil companies, the Military Industrial Complex and the Federal Reserve combined do.

Simple enough.  A child could do it--if his last name was Rothschild.

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## Working Poor

> But RHODES!



and don't forget bridges...

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## euphemia

Being facetious, of course.  

The people who think taxes are payment for services should pay a lot of them.  And the ones who pass tax increases and then try to avoid them, should go to jail.

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## oyarde

How about I just pay for the services I want ? I pay three  gas taxes for roads and I will write the fire dept a check for $30 a month and I keep all the rest of my money. I am in .

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## heavenlyboy34

> Taxation is in essence payment for a service that is provided by the state. If more Americans starting having this perspective, then support for socialism would increase. I would much rather pay the government for a service I know I am guaranteed, than pay a private businesses who would not help me if I couldn't pay.


ROFLMFAO!

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## Ronin Truth

I might be willing to consider voluntarily chipping in some for a moneybomb federal service lobotomy for the thread starter.

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## acptulsa

> and don't forget bridges...


Wouldn't have a problem with that, except they've all gone to rust around here because all the federal gas taxes--which our parents were promised would never, ever be spent on anything but roads and bridges--are going to support our imperialistic adventurism in Afghanistan pipelines and poppies and to keep Iraq on the petrodollar.

Oh, and for the great personal 'service' of paying military aid money to all of Israel's enemies and to paying an almost equal amount of military aid money to Israel itself to make up for it.  Let's not forget that great and necessary 'service' to me.

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## Christian Liberty

> Taxation is in essence payment for a service that is provided by the state. If more Americans starting having this perspective, then support for socialism would increase. I would much rather pay the government for a service I know I am guaranteed, than pay a private businesses who *would not help me if I couldn't pay.*


The bold destroys your argument.

Say I go around my town mowing lawns.  I mow each person's lawn and charge them 1% of every dime they make above $10,000.  Anyone making 10K or less gets their lawn mowed for free.  Anyone who makes a million a year is paying nearly $10,000 to have their lawn mowed.

When I send you your bill, are you "paying me for services?"  Of course not.  I am forcing you to subsidize someone else's service, and worse, you have no say in it.  You can't tell me "no thanks, I'll hire someone else" or "no thanks, I'll leave the lawn alone."

For this reason, taxation is not payment for services.  It is theft because people are FORCED to pay for the benefit of other people.

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## Christian Liberty

> ROFLMFAO!


The problem is that most Americans actually do partially agree with the OP.  I do not in any way or to any degree agree with the OP (and thankfully neither do you.)

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## mrsat_98

> Taxation is in essence payment for a service that is provided by the state. If more Americans starting having this perspective, then support for socialism would increase. I would much rather pay the government for a service I know I am guaranteed, than pay a private businesses who would not help me if I couldn't pay.


You know he is right, what is the service ? Rent on the fake money.

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## PaulConventionWV

> Taxation is in essence payment for a service that is provided by the state. If more Americans starting having this perspective, then support for socialism would increase. I would much rather pay the government for a service I know I am guaranteed, than pay a private businesses who would not help me if I couldn't pay.


Do you know where you are?

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## PaulConventionWV

> I'm starting to think the OP is a moderator/owner just having a little fun.


You mean the mod/owner is really just a professional troll?

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## acptulsa

> You mean the mod/owner is really just a professional troll?


Professional?  Who said anything about professional?

You don't have to be good to be paid for being a troll, but I'm pretty sure you have to be better than _this..._

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## pcosmar

> Taxation is in essence payment for a service that is provided by the state.


No it is not. Taxation is taking from those that produce.




> If more Americans starting having this perspective, then support for socialism would increase.


Why would we want that to happen,?(or increase?)



> I would much rather pay the government for a service I know I am guaranteed,
> 
> 
>  than pay a private businesses who would not help me if I couldn't pay.


Firstly,, The government (Any Government) has a very poor record of any guarantees. or services for that matter.

And secondly,, private services are generally do a better job of any job or service than the government.
They are also more flexible and charitable that the government.

Not to mention the basic charity that folks have in their communities.. which would function freer without government interference.

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## Boshembechle

Another important point is that this payment is not subject to dramatic increases. In a free market, prices are highly unstable. I prefer stability and consistency.

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## rp08orbust

> Another important point is that this payment is not subject to dramatic increases. In a free market, prices are highly unstable. I prefer stability and consistency.


If you're trolling for neg rep, let me know by private message and I'll give it to you.  (I usually only give it out for outright nastiness, not ignorance or foolishness.)

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## MelissaWV

> Another important point is that this payment is not subject to dramatic increases. In a free market, prices are highly unstable. I prefer stability and consistency.


Of course.  Taxes never go up.  

(You might want to Google that one.)

I know you're trolling, but for the benefit of others who might genuinely have that question, you do not pay for a bunch of services you're not going to use, under the threat of violence.  You bring up the example of roads, but those are supposed to be largely funded by taxes built in to related sales (gas taxes, etc.) and not income taxes.  I think a lot of people are much more okay with that kind of taxation than the blanket "we need your money" taxation of income most of us are subject to.  I am paying for the education of children, but I won't have any.  I'm paying for wars overseas, but I really wish I weren't.  I'm paying in to Social Security --- not mine, but the Social Security of people who're collecting it now because they paid in and were promised they'd be paid.  I am funding and financing so many projects that I have zero knowledge of, and if I decide to not fund them, I chance a world of hurt.

I will turn this back to you, though I do not expect an answer.

Since you express a gratitude for getting guaranteed service via taxes, please list every single project your tax dollars are going to.  All of them.  Every library, road, school, turtle sanctuary, Common Core research grant, etc..  If your taxes are all going to useful things, then you should be able to list these without a problem, as they are all useful to you AND you are aware of them.  If you aren't aware of all of them, then how are you making the determination that taxation is paying for useful, guaranteed services?

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## jmdrake

> Taxation is in essence payment for a service that is provided by the state. If more Americans starting having this perspective, then support for socialism would increase. I would much rather pay the government for a service I know I am guaranteed, than pay a private businesses who would not help me if I couldn't pay.


A) Are the veterans in the VA system getting "guaranteed service"?

B) How am I receiving a service by paying for wars and foreign aid and cell phones for other people exactly?

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## anaconda

> Taxation is in essence payment for a service that is provided by the state. If more Americans starting having this perspective, then support for socialism would increase. I would much rather pay the government for a service I know I am guaranteed, than pay a private businesses who would not help me if I couldn't pay.


Great. So let's start by making taxes voluntary so we don't have to continue thinking of them as theft.

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## green73

I've never seen somebody with two red rep blocks.

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## Carlybee

Sure you can look at it as payment for services.  Services with no competitive prices that are set by taxing authorities whose main lot in life is to sit behind a desk and think of how to arbitrarily raise the price every chance they get...because they can.

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> You mean the mod/owner is really just a professional troll?


Either this forum needs to drum up some serious traffic for ad dollars, or Bushel Basket is the laziest person I've seen in awhile.

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## mrsat_98

> You mean the mod/owner is really just a professional troll?





> Professional?  Who said anything about professional?
> 
> You don't have to be good to be paid for being a troll, but I'm pretty sure you have to be better than _this..._


Apparently you failed to understand RPF is strictly a satire site. It became obvious when I got banned for posting Obama pics with a noose around his neck. That was called promoting murder and racist, when hanging someone in effigy is clearly a political statement.

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## Henry Rogue

> The bold destroys your argument.
> 
> Say I go around my town mowing lawns.  I mow each person's lawn and charge them 1% of every dime they make above $10,000.  Anyone making 10K or less gets their lawn mowed for free.  Anyone who makes a million a year is paying nearly $10,000 to have their lawn mowed.
> 
> When I send you your bill, are you "paying me for services?"  Of course not.  I am forcing you to subsidize someone else's service, and worse, you have no say in it.  You can't tell me "no thanks, I'll hire someone else" or "no thanks, I'll leave the lawn alone."
> 
> For this reason, taxation is not payment for services.  It is theft because people are FORCED to pay for the benefit of other people.


This^^^    Bravo,  well said, Sir.

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## Cleaner44

> Another important point is that this payment is not subject to dramatic increases. In a free market, prices are highly unstable. I prefer stability and consistency.


Are you creating some type of database on typical answers to stupid socialist questions?  You certainly don't show an interest in having conversations or debating anything.  You just throw out false claims that cast socialism in a positive light and then refuse to ever address anything.  What are crafting?

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## acptulsa

> Another important point is that this payment is not subject to dramatic increases. In a free market, prices are highly unstable. I prefer stability and consistency.


Taxes 'are not subject to dramatic increases' in what universe?

Given a truly free market and a solid currency, prices often go down.  Even without these things, private enterprise can get certain prices down.  On the other hand...





> 'When a party can't think of anything else they always fall back on lower taxes.  It has a magic sound to a voter just like fairyland is spoken of and dreamed of by children.  But no child has ever seen it.  Neither has any voter ever lived to see the day when his taxes were lowered.'--_Will Rogers_

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## erowe1

If I threatened you with deadly force to make you buy a service from me that you would not otherwise buy, would you not call that theft?

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## oyarde

> If I threatened you with deadly force to make you buy a service from me that you would not otherwise buy, would you not call that theft?


I would.

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## ctiger2

I have no problem with VOLUNTARY non-violent taxation. 

It's the VIOLENT ones (INCOME, PROPERTY, CAPITAL) where the guns coming out that should all be ABOLISHED. Those are THEFT at the barrel of a gun just like Mafia.

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## bunklocoempire

> Taxation is in essence payment for a service that is provided by the state. If more Americans starting having this perspective, then support for socialism would increase. *I would much rather pay the government* for a service I know I am guaranteed, than pay a private businesses who would not help me if I couldn't pay.




Like you have a choice.


You know what's "guaranteed" if you _don't_ pay?

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## Dr.3D

> We need to stop viewing taxation as theft and start viewing it as payment for services *we don't want or need.*"


FIFY

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## RickyJ

What services? Roads with pot holes for years, police that are only interested in harassing you and giving you tickets for minor traffic violations while letting murderers and rapists go free? What services do you think the government offers that are worth paying for? I don't think any are, none, zero! They are not capable of providing anything because they are parasites!

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## erowe1

> Another important point is that this payment is not subject to dramatic increases. In a free market, prices are highly unstable. I prefer stability and consistency.


Fine, then do what you prefer. Just don't force anyone else to.

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## Root

One thing I'd like the OP to address is who exactly is this "We" you speak of and why should I be included in your group collective?

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## Republicanguy

> Taxation is in essence payment for a service that is provided by the state. If more Americans starting having this perspective, then support for socialism would increase. I would much rather pay the government for a service I know I am guaranteed, than pay a private businesses who would not help me if I couldn't pay.


Yes.

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## 56ktarget

How ironic that the paulites are using a service that was invented by the government.

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## heavenlyboy34

> How ironic that the paulites are using a service that was invented by the government.


This is a popular myth (much like constitutionalist minarchy in general).  It ain't so.  




> The *history of the Internet* begins with the development of electronic computers in the 1950s. Initial concepts of packet networking originated in several computer science laboratories in the United States, Great Britain, and France.


It was only later that the US regime-the parasite that it is-"awarded contracts as early as the 1960s for packet network systems, including the development of the ARPANET (which would become the first network to use the Internet Protocol.) The first message was sent over the ARPANET from computer science Professor Leonard Kleinrock's laboratory at University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) to the second network node at Stanford Research Institute (SRI)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet

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## 56ktarget

"The history of the Internet begins with the development of electronic computers in the 1950s. Initial concepts of packet networking originated in several computer science laboratories in the United States, Great Britain, and France.* The US Department of Defense* awarded contracts as early as the 1960s for packet network systems, including the development of the ARPANET (which would become the first network to use the Internet Protocol.) The first message was sent over the ARPANET from computer science Professor Leonard Kleinrock's laboratory at University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) to the second network node at Stanford Research Institute (SRI)."

Next.

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## pcosmar

> How ironic that the paulites are using a service that was invented by the government.





> Next.


The government invents nothing.. 
The government merely gained an interest by funding research.. They invented nothing.

Much like Bill Gates,, who has profited off of the inventions of others.

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## pcosmar

> How ironic that the paulites are using a service that was invented by the government.





> Next.


The government invents nothing.. 
The government merely gained an interest by funding research.. They invented nothing.

Much like Bill Gates,, who has profited off of the inventions of others.

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## Ronin Truth

> The government invents nothing.. 
> The government merely gained an interest by funding research.. They invented nothing.
> 
> Much like Bill Gates,, who has profited off of the inventions of others.


You mean Algore didn't invent it?  But he said .........

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## Christian Liberty

> I have no problem with VOLUNTARY non-violent taxation. 
> 
> It's the VIOLENT ones (INCOME, PROPERTY, CAPITAL) where the guns coming out that should all be ABOLISHED. Those are THEFT at the barrel of a gun just like Mafia.


I wouldn't call voluntary payments "taxation".




> What services? Roads with pot holes for years, police that are only interested in harassing you and giving you tickets for minor traffic violations while letting murderers and rapists go free? What services do you think the government offers that are worth paying for? I don't think any are, none, zero! They are not capable of providing anything because they are parasites!


This.

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## Root

> The government invents nothing.. 
> The government merely gained an interest by funding research.. They invented nothing.


The government doesn't actually exist.  I've never met or touched a government.  Government is a construct of the mind.

People exist.

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## jllundqu

> I'm starting to think the OP is a moderator/owner just having a little fun.


Might as well put a sign up that says "I AM $#@!ING WITH RPF AND YOU ARE ALL FALLING FOR IT!"

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## erowe1

> How ironic that the paulites are using a service that was invented by the government.


Let's say that's true. What would be ironic about it? If something was invented by the government, would that be a reason for libertarians not to use it?

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## Henry Rogue

Looks like the all the sheep got loose from the red bar ranch and ended up in this thread.

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## Boshembechle

You are a sheep, not me.

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## MelissaWV

> You are a sheep, not me.


Great comeback!

Now if you could just find your way to answering even one of the posts directed at you....

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> You are a sheep, not me.


Get a job already.

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## Henry Rogue

> You are a sheep, not me.


"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." Animal Farm by George Orwell

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> How ironic that the paulites are using a service that was invented by the government.


I was not aware that IBM, Steve Jobs, Xerox, Bell Labs, etc. etc. were the government.

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> "The history of the Internet begins with the development of electronic computers in the 1950s. Initial concepts of packet networking originated in several computer science laboratories in the United States, Great Britain, and France.* The US Department of Defense* awarded contracts as early as the 1960s for packet network systems, including the development of the ARPANET (which would become the first network to use the Internet Protocol.) The first message was sent over the ARPANET from computer science Professor Leonard Kleinrock's laboratory at University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) to the second network node at Stanford Research Institute (SRI)."
> 
> Next.


People copy-paste stuff like this and say the government invented the internet, but then wonder why Al Gore and themselves are the butt of jokes.  The real irony is that something so high tech is used to transmit such buffoonery.

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## PierzStyx

Payment is a voluntary action. You choose to pay for something or not. When you force payment from someone it isn't payment, its extortion. Taxes therefore can never be payment for a service but will always be extortion and theft.

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## Bman

Not acceptable to voluntarism.  No thanks.  I'll call it what it is.  Theft.

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## Barrex

Unique name Boshembechle.  You got more than few accounts on various sites. Most you never used or are deleted.




> boshembechle subscribed to a channel                 
>   4KRepPaulRyan





> Korisnik boshembechle   ostavio je komentar                 
> 
>                                        What ever happened to personal responsibilty? Liberals and  Europeans (who have no right to say anything about America or its  politics) love to say that high health care costs are a result of greed  and the "evil insurance companies". What they conveniently fail to  mention is that the health industry IS THE MOST REGULATED private  industry in America. Since the early 1990's, the government has passed  regulation after regulation on our health care providers, and the cost  has increased ever since.





> Korisnik boshembechle   ostavio je komentar                 
> 
>                                        It really is amusing watching the liberals try so hard to defend  Obama's statements, while at the same time using a ridiculous straw man  to portray Conservatives as anti-infrastructure. The government does not  build roads, it does not build schoolhouses, it does not build police  departments. All of those things are made possible by the wealth created  by business and enterprise. There is no such thing as government money,  so to say that "you didn't build that" is ignorant at best.





> Korisnik boshembechle   ostavio je komentar                 
> 
>                                        Europe is not socialist. Many European nations have socialized  industries, such as healthcare, but that is not what socialism is.  Socialism is when the "people" (government) owns the means of production  (economy). Do people that advocate socialism realize that under a  socialism system, it is ILLEGAL to make a profit, ILLEGAL! Europe is  just as capitalist as America.





> Korisnik boshembechle   ostavio je komentar                 
> 
>                                        I am so sick of people using Europe as some ideal example. Europe lives off of American innovation.


ROFLMAO




> Korisnik boshembechle odgovorio je na   komentar korisnika guerilla1985 
> 
>                                        Crony capitalism is a result of government.



There are libertarian traces in you...you need to build on that.

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## Deborah K

> Taxation is in essence payment for a service that is provided by the state. If more Americans starting having this perspective, then support for socialism would increase. I would much rather pay the government for a service I know I am guaranteed, than pay a private businesses who would not help me if I couldn't pay.



This shows a lack of understanding of what the proper role of government should be - and it isn't to provide Americans with "services".  Read a history book.

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## Deborah K

> Let's say that's true. What would be ironic about it? If something was invented by the government, would that be a reason for libertarians not to use it?


"...invented by [a] government" that is funded by the _people_, no less.

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## anaconda

> Great comeback!
> 
> Now if you could just find your way to answering even one of the posts directed at you....


Hee hee..

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## Slave Mentality

Yes, the wonderful services.  All for the low price of half your damn labor when it is all said and done.  The wonderful government guaranteed services.

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## osan

> some nonsense, again...


Taxation is provable as theft.  It takes not rocket surgery to figure out why, so cut slinging the troll dung.




> I would much rather pay the government for a service I know I am guaranteed, than pay a private businesses who would not help me if I couldn't pay.


Then go live in China and leave decent folk alone.  What in hell is the matter with you, anyway?

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## heavenlyboy34

> This shows a lack of understanding of what the proper role of government should be - *and it isn't to provide Americans with "services".  Read a history book.*


Depends on how you interpret the "common welfare" clause.  (See what I did there?  )

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## presence

The benefits of a service are self-evident in a buyer's willingness to pay.

The only economic role of government is to protect property rights and enforce contracts.

All efforts by government to redistribute wealth, or to control or manage trade have no role an economically FREE society.

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## osan

> Why do you want people to suffer in agony?  _Do you hate people that much?_


Is that a serious question?  Progressives and all related ilk are the acme of narrow-band self-importance.

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## mrsat_98



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## heavenlyboy34

> 


"it's a small price to pay fer freedom!" ~_boobus_

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## MelissaWV

> 


Those numbers make the baby Jesus cry.

Interesting how the graphic does not include interest and debt.  Wonder why that is?  It also seems to be talking purely about Federal income tax.  That's misleading, because on top of that we actually pay directly into several funds.

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## Seraphim

I don't want your State services. Therefore I am not paying for them. What is occuring is that my money is being extorted (stolen) from me and I am being forced to purchase services from monopolists.

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## Deborah K

> Depends on how you interpret the "common welfare" clause.  (See what I did there?  )


Yep.  You're pointing out the ignorance of a lot of progressives who like to call the Constitution a "living document".  The "general welfare" clause is described in _Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, Volume II, Chapter XIV The Powers of Congress  Taxes, Section 906, pp. 369-370 (1833)
_in this way:




> If the clause, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United States, is construed to be an independent and substantive grant of power, it not only renders wholly unimportant and unnecessary the subsequent enumeration of specific powers; but it plainly extends far beyond them, and creates a general authority in congress to pass all laws, which they may deem for the common defence or general welfare.1 Under such circumstances, the constitution would practically create an unlimited national government. The enumerated powers would tend to embarrassment and confusion; since they would only give rise to doubts, as to the true extent of the general power, or of the enumerated powers.


The Founders clearly did not intend for the federal government to have general and unlimited powers, but rather special and enumerated powers.

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## osan

Never mind.

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## heavenlyboy34

> Says "promote the common welfare", not "provide the common welfare".
> *
> Promoting and providing differ widely... unless you live on Bizarro*.


You and I know that, but our overlords don't. (or simply choose to bend plain language into pretzels, per usual)

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## acptulsa

> Depends on how you interpret the "common welfare" clause.  (See what I did there?  )


You mean besides put 'common welfare' in quotation marks as if you didn't just make the phrase up (presumably by getting 'general welfare' and 'common defense' mixed up?

You have about as much knowledge to criticize the Constitution with as our 'Constitutional Scholar' president has to preserve, protect and defend it with.  

I'd love to see you and Obama debate the Constitution.  No one would have a clue what constitution you're debating.  It would be hilarious.

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