# Liberty Movement > Grassroots Central >  Watching debate now

## V-rod

10 minutes into debate, no Paul yet, and Romney is succeeding to overthrow Giuliani as the head douchebag of the pack

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## Meistro1

I'm listening to the commentary on ronpaulradio, no fireworks yet.

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## UCFGavin

is it on regular ABC?  I can't find $#@!

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## yongrel

Ron's on now! Talking about war! And getting a TON of applause.

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## BuddyRey

Did I just hear John McCain correctly?!  Did he say we'd be in this "Global War on Terror" until the END OF THE CENTURY?!?!?!

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## yongrel

> Did I just hear John McCain correctly?!  Did he say we'd be in this "Global War on Terror" until the END OF THE CENTURY?!?!?!


Yes. Sickening.

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## Meistro1

Ron Paul starts out swinging heavily, taking a shot at the war on Iraq, Vietnam and Korea.

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## UCFGavin

I can't believe I don't $#@!ing have the debate....

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## james1844

where is the link to watch the debate?

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## yongrel

Jeez, Huckabee is a good speaker. Too bad I can't agree with what he says.

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## Scribbler de Stebbing

Gavin, it's not on here for another hour.  Maybe same where you are.

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## mtbaird5687

Is anyone going to record this and put it on Youtube?

or does anyone have a link to it live? 

I'm in London right now and don't have access to ABC (of course)

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## V-rod

Ow, RP could of worded his answer a little better
I hate this style of debates Dr. Paul could run circles around these guys in a marathon debate.  Hard for him to get the edge in with these damn sound bytes

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## Dustancostine

all of the clapping is getting old.

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## yongrel

McCain's not helping himself yet. He's just rehashing the Bush talking points.

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## UCFGavin

> Gavin, it's not on here for another hour.  Maybe same where you are.


I'm eastern time zone.  shouldn't it be live here?  i got up early with a bad hangover to watch it

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## Dustancostine

Did McCain just say that a sign of Iraqi unity was the _soccer_ match.

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## sunny

Guys And Gals!!!

Check Your Local Listings - It's Different In Each Time Zone And When "this Week" Broacasts In Your Area!!!

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## yongrel

"Not one of the candidates has said Islamic Extremism, which is taking political correctness to an extreme." -Ghuoliani.

I despise him.

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## Meistro1

Guiliani lieing like always... he claims that in the 4 democratic debates they've never talked about terrorism... flat out lie.

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## V-rod

God.. the more I hear Guiliani speak...

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## Dustancostine

Romney just said a _surge_ of sacrifice and we need a _surge_ support. lol

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## V-rod

Romney wouldn't double Guantanamo, he would quadruple it!

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## yongrel

Is it just me, or did Ron Paul get a lot less time to talk about the war than the other candidates?

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## yongrel

Ron Paul Got The Last Word On The War!!!!!

EDIT: McCain is being a bugger, so RP doesn't get the last word. But RP still owned them all.

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## V-rod

Paul gave a huge UPPERCUT to Neocons!

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## Dustancostine

Go Ron Go

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## ChristopherJ

It's not on here yet. Where is Ron on the stage?

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## walt

can anyone with video of Ron tell me if he looked angry in that answer?

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## tsopranos

http://www.justin.tv/ronpaul

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## BuddyRey

Ron Paul just OWNED everybody!!!!

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## freelance

> Default
> Romney wouldn't double Guantanamo, he would quadruple it!


V-Rod, did he actually SAY that?

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## Patrick Henry

The good Dr. is kicking butt!!

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## yongrel

Ron Paul SHUT DOWN Romney! Did anyone see Romney's face when Ron Paul gave him the hand without even looking? AHAHHAHAHAHA!!!

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## Lois

Wow -- did you see Romney saying "Have you forgot about 9/11" when Ron Paul was saying  "Al Queda had nothing to do with Iraq".  Doesn't everybody know -- 

*Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11* !

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## Scribbler de Stebbing

Damn.  I missed it.  Get to watch the whole thing in 1/2 hour.

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## V-rod

Tancredo seems twitchy as hell tonight.

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## Dustancostine

They lined them up by that ABC Iowa Poll so he is next to last on the right.

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## V-rod

I hope they ask Paul about some Pro Life issues.

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## yongrel

Romney is rambling about health care. Oi vey.

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## Scribbler de Stebbing

Tell us what Ron Paul says.  Some of us are delayed an hour.

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## Dustancostine

Sounds like Romney wants socialized healthcare.

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## yongrel

Romney Just Talked About The Free Market!!!! Aaaahhhh!!! And So Did Giuliani!!!!!!!!!

Please Please Please Let Ron Paul Own Them All!!!!

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## shrugged0106

> Tell us what Ron Paul says.  Some of us are delayed an hour.



or two!!  lol.   I hate waiting, ut I know I'll be forced to watch it at 11.

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## V-rod

Way to go GHoulani, more huge tax breaks, but keep increasing goverment spending. Way to go.

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## freelance

Scribbler, only 27 minutes to go!

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## Patrick Henry

> Sounds like Romney wants socialized healthcare.


He does. I live in the cesspool of Boston MA.

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## stevedasbach

Are they going to let the only physician on the stage address the issue of healthcare?

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## Dustancostine

He has gotten two chances to speak about the war. 1st time said his basic sound bite about walking out. 2nd time said his basic sound bite about how we do more in peace than in war, example veitnam Brought out fact that he served his country during vietnam.

A little more anger this time. Like what I see so far.

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## Lois

*Well, I can't get anything on JustinTV at all.*

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## Scribbler de Stebbing

Giuliani doesn't get it -- we shouldn't have to beg for crumbs in tax dollars back.  It's our damn money and we can choose whether to buy insurance or even just pay as we go.  We don't need Giuliani for this!

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## V-rod

Ron Paul is getting the least time to speak

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## Dustancostine

Didn't let Paul speak on health care. After saying they were going to let everyone. Also didn't let others though as well.

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## constituent

it only helps the cause when the ignore him


counterintuitive... i know.

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## Scribbler de Stebbing

Nope, what does a medical doctor know about health care?

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## Patrick Henry

Giuliani: "crush" Al Quaida..... "crush" the Taliban

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## Dustancostine

I would say he is getting about as much as Tancredo and Hunter. They are giving a lot to Thompson and Huckabee. Guliani and Romney get to speak about twice about every  issue.

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## V-rod

Oh god, if Paul doesn't get the nomination, the Republican Party has no chance in hell to win the Presidency.
He also needs to interrupt these jokers just like they keep interrupting him!

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## Meistro1

Romney just said Musharaff is an example of democracy and freedom... does he want that same "freedom" in America?  The freedom of a military theocracy brutally silencing dissent?

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## yongrel

Stephanapoulous just owned Giuliani. That was nice. +1 Rep point. Which puts George at -299.

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## Dustancostine

Romney just called it a _war on jihad_.

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## yongrel

Romney just said, "To win the war on Jihad..."

Is there anything between his ears?

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## Scribbler de Stebbing

> Oh god, if Paul doesn't get the nomination, the Republican Party has no chance in hell to win the Presidency.


And that's not a bad thing -- coming from a life-long Republican.  Ron Paul is the only one who can save this country.

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## Dustancostine

Steph just gave anyone a chance to jump in and he didn't. He needs to be a little less polite.

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## Meistro1

wow this debate is a joke... where are the questions for ron paul... they should just call it "Abc lets guiliani and romney give their opinions"

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## goldstandard

Live blogging and video: http://www.iowavoice.com/2007/05/15/...-live-edition/

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## Dustancostine

Huckabee just took a Paul stance, said we don't need to be exporting democracy, but protect America

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## yongrel

They're really pushing Huckabee this time.

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## V-rod

I don't believe in many conspiracies, but it seems Stephanalpolis wants to just give Paul the War questions that can easily rile up the warhawks, and avoid questions like Health Care.

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## Scribbler de Stebbing

Is RP getting almost NO time?  We're going to start a "boycot

Oops -- here he is

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## Meistro1

Crowd going wild as Ron Paul denounces neocons.

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## Dustancostine

Paul: Our responsibility is to spread a democracy _HERE_. Woodrow Wilson. Don't spread democracy with gun. Don't threatened Iran and Pakistan. NeoCons are forgot Afghanistan.

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## Meistro1

Guiliani : Democracy isn't about voting, it's about military force controlling things.

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## LizF

I'm finding Romney's smirking and condescension annoying.

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## yongrel

"Democracy is not immediately going to elections... Democracy requires the rule of law....

Democracy is only a theory if you're living in an unstable society."

-Trudy

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## Patrick Henry

Paul needs to bring up letters of Marque and repraisal

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## Dustancostine

Guliani, you can't be free, until there is rule of law. Sounds very police statish.

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## yongrel

"Elections do not mean democracy." - McCain.

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## Dustancostine

McCain. We should only attack Pakistan after _thinking it through_

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## freelance

> Guiliani : Democracy isn't about voting, it's about military force controlling things.


More Guiliani authoritarian drivel.

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## yongrel

AAAHHHH!!!! McCain just said that we were "the shining city on the hill."

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## Dustancostine

Tancredo keeps demanding time, and each time he gets it. Paul needs to do the same thing.

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## rg123

They are all trying to take Rons speaking points

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## V-rod

haha, Dr. Paul should interrupt Giulani with.. "that is an extraordinary statement. I ask the former Mayor to withdraw his statement about his definition of Democracy, and please tell us he did not mean what he said"

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## yongrel

They're all copying Ron Paul's stances on foreign policy.

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## Meistro1

damnit ron paul radio keeps going down... too many people listening i guess ^_^

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## Lois

*That "Live Debate" link was to the May debate --

Where is the Live Debate Online???*

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## Dustancostine

BTW: Even though Paul isn't getting the time, other than that I have been happy with Stephanie's job, he nailing them down. Especially Guliani, and Romney.

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## V-rod

C'mon Paul, STEP Up to the plate dammit.  Romney is trying to make you look bad.

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## freelance

Should be some interesting reading on Guliani and Romney talking points soon!

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## Dustancostine

Romney in his speach just gave examples of Kennedy and Roosevelt. He should just run as a Dem.

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## rg123

Ron needs to learn how to interupt

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## LizF

Romney's wife looks a bit nervous for him whenever they pan to her, IMO.

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## Dustancostine

Most certainly. He needs to step up and grab his time.

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## LastoftheMohicans

It shows what chameleons these guys are.  They know that Iowans are against the war, so they change their stances to sound more like Paul.

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## yongrel

Tommy Thompson is talking sense about Tancredo's plan to bomb Mecca.

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## Dustancostine

Hunter has interupted got time. Tancredo has interupted twice, got time. Brownback just interupted and got time. 

C'mon Ron Get your time.

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## Meistro1

Yeah, although he mis-estimated the number of muslims in the world by 500 million.

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## V-rod

I hope the people out there are appreciating Dr. Paul's manners and politeness.

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## llamabread

"We are a nation at war"

Except we never declared war, so we are more like a nation carrying out an idiot's executive orders.

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## rg123

He has talked 2 times in one hour Ron needs to get aggressive and show he wants to be the president there is too much at stake

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## Dustancostine

Talking about the bridge.

Hucabee gets to go first. Need less spending to deal with our own infrastructure. Takes Paul's stance. 

Huckabee is a good speaker. He may move to my number 2.

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## yongrel

AAAHH!!! Huckabee is stealing Ron Paul's points on the bridge issue! It was like hearing RP's speech from Penn. again! Grr. This is frustrating.

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## Brent

I am chewing my fingernails off because I can't watch the debate, but going by what I've read isn't it funny that the elitists try to rip off Dr. Pauls points like a football player copying a smart students homework. If Rudy McRomney dare to do that, and are questioned in more detail about, e.g., the Constitution, the lack of substance should quickly be revealed behind the phonyness. Is the Rep debate as funny as the Dem debate? Obama cracks me up to know end

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## Dustancostine

No one is noticing his politeness because they are listening to other speak. 

You don't notice the person that does nothing.

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## Meistro1

Rudy guiliani : cutting taxes raises federal revenue... is he $#@!ing stupid?  cutting taxes equals losing revenue...

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## V-rod

LOL, for every 5 statements Romney and Giulani makes, our Good Doctor gets ONE!

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## Dustancostine

Romney and Guiliani said we need tax cuts to grow economy for money for bridges.

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## SeanEdwards

It doesn't sound like this is going very well.

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## Dustancostine

McCain stalking about pork. Bridge to no where. Says he veto all pork.

Go to commercial.

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## Scribbler de Stebbing

They're spending it building bridges in Iraq that we just bombed  That's why we can't take care of our own bridges!

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## Meistro1

Is it over?

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## LizF

Time for another poll?  Go to ABC

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## yongrel

vote for who you think is winning the debate. ABCnews.com/politics

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## Dustancostine

> It doesn't sound like this is going very well.


It goes great when he gets a chance to speak. But if he doesn't start stepping up he is not going to get much of a chance.

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## SeanEdwards

I may turn into a stepsonallofus stalker if he doesn't give our guy some more opportunity to participate.

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## rg123

Your right scribbler but we won't hear Ron say it because he is to busy being polite
while all the other just keep on talking. He needs to say I would like to answer some question and call them out

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## freelance

Is he getting anything in in the final moments?

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## glts

What is the address to vote?

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## RPatTheBeach

> vote for who you think is winning the debate. ABCnews.com/politics


I'm there and cannot find the poll. Anyone able to find it?

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## specialkornflake

Ron Paul has a large photo on the abc news frontpage rotation on the left.

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## yongrel

what's the link for the poll? I can't find it!

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## specialkornflake

The link to vote is under this week debate scroll list.

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## 4Horsemen

I'm glad they should Mitt Romney's wife 4 times because I forget what she looks like.

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## specialkornflake

http://abcnews.go.com/politics (scroll down the menu and click "Vote: Who is winning the debate?")

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## scrosnoe

887 out of 1123 current vote?

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## LizF

Actually, when I clicked on the "Who is winning" the pop up window showed the same poll as before (phrased "Who do you think will win the debate").

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## Ron Paul Fan

LOL! Ron Paul is winning the poll with 948 votes.  2nd place is Romney with 66!

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## Ann Kobialka

Why did Dr. Paul even bother showing up? This is getting me angry. You can't just stand there. And we can't vote him winning this poll if he answers 2 questions. GGGGRRRRR    WTF

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## LizF

They're back

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## Bro.Butch

> Tancredo seems twitchy as hell tonight.


Tancredo was born twitchy !!! And it's morning LOL!!!!!!!!

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## V-rod

Giulani probably didn't know that about the Vice Presidency because he doesn't read the Constitution. Also Waiting on for them to mess with the online poll, any minute now

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## Dustancostine

Weird I'm still on commercial.

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## Dustancostine

AHHH No I'm pissed. 10hrs of commercial.

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## LizF

Tommy Thompson not criticizing Cheney.

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## rg123

Some paid advertisment show is on now what happened

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## Dustancostine

I Can't believe it. ABC Bismark just switched to the real estate channel !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Debate over for me.

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## yongrel

1,172 of 1,657 votes on the ABC poll

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## V-rod

Romney and Giulani are talking about how they want expanded powers of Vice Presidency,


Oh great, Paul gets a softball question, and HE GETS CUT OFF real fast

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## LizF

Romney: Bush and Cheney have kept us safe these past 6 yrs.  Applause.

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## LizF

RP: Cheney represents the neocon position...GSteph then cuts him off before he can truly finish his answer

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## Lois

*My friend in NY has ABC channel and there's no Debate on there at all.  This stinks -*-

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## inibo

> 1,172 of 1,657 votes on the ABC poll


Link please.

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## Dustancostine

What was the question?

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## LizF

Fair Tax questions....replace most taxes w/a 23% sales tax

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## david.griffus

I was going to watch it, but if Dr. Paul literally only answered two questions, why even bother?  Doesnt he understand that people WANT to hear what he has to say just as much or more than the other candidates because they don't know him. Come on, good doctor.  Step up.

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## V-rod

If they skip Ron Paul on this Fairtax question, I'm literally going to go ape$#@!

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## Lois

*They only gave Ron Paul 36 seconds for the last answer.*

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## isufferfromronpaulfever

> What was the question?


you didn't miss much. RP had a whopping 15-20 seconds to say what he had to. It regarded the duty/power of the Vice President.

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## yongrel

I will break my TV if they skip Ron Paul on the FairTax question.

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## richard1984

> Link please.


http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=3437858&page=1

scroll down the page

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## Ron Paul Fan

Why do they always go to Huckabee first and then the front runners, then Brownback, Tancredo, Thompson, and if they have time they get to Paul and Hunter.  They better not skip him on the tax question!

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## Dustancostine

This debate is pointless. If it is not on anywhere for the full duration. Then who cares.

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## richard1984

It just started here, and good lord this is annoying so far.

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## LizF

McCain: We should eliminate the Alternative Minimum Tax

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## yongrel

They better talk to Ron Paul!

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## Lois

http://abcnews.go.com/politics

*Click on "Vote - Who is Winning the Debate"*

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## Meistro1

hahaha guiliani just got slapped after blurting out "I already read it" like a school child

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## SeanEdwards

I had to delete this one. Let my anger at ABC get the better of me.

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## richard1984

Well...until they finally ask Dr. Paul about the war.  

I love Ron Paul!

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## Meistro1

ron paul has 10x as many votes

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## LizF

Tancredo: for Fair Tax; Income Tax--way of govt manipulating behavior

applause

then GSteph goes to Brownback --> to be the last one to answer this question

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## shrugged0106

> http://abcnews.go.com/politics
> 
> *Click on "Vote - Who is Winning the Debate"*




It isnt letting me vote.  It's still on who do we think will win from yesterday i thin k.   Could it be due to the fact that the debate wasnt televised here yet?

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## Brent

The only poll I see is the "who do you think will win the debate" which I voted last night. Is there another?

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## yongrel

I can't believe this. They didn't let Ron Paul talk about the FairTax!

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## V-rod

THEY SKIPPED PAUL ON TAXES!!

This was a waste of time..

and now Paul gets a 3 second response on mistakes..

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## Meistro1

of course they didn't ask ron paul about taxes... god this debate is TERRIBLE, no time for dr. paul at all... less time than the CBC, NBC or even FOX NEWS debates

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## Meistro1

ron paul should have used that time to put in his thoughts about taxes... he only spoke for a few seconds when he should have taken the full 30 seconds

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## Dustancostine

Can someone please blog this for those of us who are getting screwed out of it.

Please.

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## rich34

If we need to start spamming emails to abc just let me know exactly where to send them because I'm all for it.  The debate don't come on here until 11:30, but from what I've heard so far I'm not sure if I even want to watch it.

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## shrugged0106

we need to point this out to everybody we know and digg the hell out of the facts.

It may actually be beneficial to inspire passion in folks when they realize the unfair treatment.

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## LizF

What was the defining mistake of your life?

Hunter: almost ran as a Dem? (I think that's what he said)

RP: I don't speak forcefully enough for the cause of liberty

Huckabee: not taking care of my health earlier

Romney: pro-choice positon earlier in career

Giuliani: jokes about past

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## glts

Giuliani finally answers a question honestly.

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## rg123

pointless debate I cant watch it now a realestate showis on but Ron does not answer any questions. Their wont be a youtube debate so they will rigg polls like gallup and say only candidates with 5 % or more can participate in the debates this is the design people and Fred Thompson will save the day when their is no one left to debate. This entire election process and our government is nothing but BULL$#@!!!! Its time to start not being nice to the MSM and take our damn country back

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## V-rod

haha, Tancredo trying to make sound bytes for Evangelicals

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## LizF

TThompson: women in his family have/had cancer --> not being supportive enough

Tancredo: 30 yrs before he realized Jesus was his savior

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## SeanEdwards

Anyone else  feel like burning an effigy of George 'the kingmaker' in front of ABC HQ?

Perhaps we should spam a boycot of ABC sponsor companies to send them some blowback.

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## Lois

Oh, God -- Tancredo said "Jesus Christ is my personal Savior" --

*Then why does he want to kill all the innocent people in other countries???*

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## inibo

This is depressing.

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## glts

Wow Thompsons going to cure cancer.

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## Dustancostine

RP should have not let him skip him on the tax question. What in the hell is doing up there. 

Stand up man!!!!!

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## richard1984

I really hate all of the other candidates....

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## LizF

> Oh, God -- Tancredo said "Jesus Christ is my personal Savior" --
> 
> *Then why does he want to kill all the innocent people in other countries???*


'cause they worship Allah?

Oh and they don't vote here...lol

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## V-rod

Thompson will end breast cancer by 2015.  Giulani will bring hoverboards by 2025

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## shrugged0106

> Anyone else  feel like burning an effigy of George 'the kingmaker' in front of ABC HQ?
> 
> Perhaps we should spam a boycot of ABC sponsor companies to send them some blowback.




effigy= NO, that would certainly not attract more GOP'er (that we need)

Contact sponsors= Yes!!!  definitely do it with passionate courtesy.  Get more flies with honey, but be firm.

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## Patrick Henry

Please say "reinstate the constitution and restore the republic"

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## LizF

WTF...Giuliani says he restored hope for NYC...says he'll do the same for the country.

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## OURPLAN

Sweet jesus this is frustrating.. Let the doctor SPEAK! Let the doctor SPEAK!

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## freelance

Thompson: We're fighting a holy war.

OMG!

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## Lois

I thought you wrote ''

*..."Giuliani will bring Over Broads"*

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## Dustancostine

Whats going  on now. Please update those that have been left in the cold.

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## LizF

Sheesh....Romney's so plastic and phony

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## MsDoodahs

One question to those fortunate enough to be watching:  has RP made any gaffs at all?

Thanks!

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## V-rod

Would I get in trouble with the Secret Service or something if I said that I would like to rearrange Romney's arrogant face with my fist?

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## Patrick Henry

> One question to those fortunate enough to be watching:  has RP made any gaffs at all?
> 
> Thanks!


Nope

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## yongrel

> One question to those fortunate enough to be watching:  has RP made any gaffs at all?
> 
> Thanks!


He hasn't has a chance to make a gaff.

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## LizF

RP: I would restore openess to govt; secrecy not good; transparent govt; I think we could improve on that

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## AdamT

The sheeple applause for Gouliani is depressing.....

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## inibo

> Whats going  on now. Please update those that have been left in the cold.


What's going on is they are ignoring Dr. Paul.

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## V-rod

Paul just tried to redeem himself in the debate by giving his final statement about wanting to make Goverment more transparent to the Congress and the people.

Well the debate is over now. This was kind of depressing for me. Dr. Paul needs to seriously improve on his debating skills.

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## LizF

Debate over.

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## yongrel

That was the worst debate I have ever seen!

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## Meistro1

"I want to hear what you guys think"

This debate is a joke, please interview ron paul.

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## Dustancostine

RP needs to learn to grab time like the rest of them.

Well I guess it didn't do any harm.

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## Ron Paul Fan

Terrible debate.  Way too rushed.  Hopefully a couple of these candidates do bad at the straw poll so they drop out and we're down to 6-7 people.

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## inibo

Thanks DJ.  Great job.  Too bad Dr. Paul only got about a total of 2 minutes if that.

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## quickmike

Someone who is in contact with the campaign needs to get hold of Kent Snyder and let him know he needs to have a talk with Ron Paul about speaking up when he is skipped over on questions and not given fair time. Ronald Reagan practically won the election when he said, after having his mic cut off  "Sir, I paid for this microphone and I will be heard"
A reporter said right after that "I think we just found our next president"

Ron definitely needs to be more vocal about being screwed like this.

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## richard1984

At least the crowd likes Dr. Paul.

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## Dustancostine

They need to make these debates about 5 hrs long.

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## AdamT

Debate's over. Now ABC kicks into full propaganda mode to prop up the "anointed ones" and marginalize RP. So predictable.

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## freelance

> Someone who is in contact with the campaign needs to get hold of Kent Snyder and let him know he needs to have a talk with Ron Paul about speaking up when he is skipped over on questions and not given fair time. Ronald Reagan practically won the election when he said, after having his mic cut off "Sir, I paid for this microphone and I will be heard"
> A reporter said right after that "I think we just found our next president"
> 
> Ron definitely needs to be more vocal about being screwed like this.


Yes, PLEASE. Bradley, are you monitoring this thread?

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## Dustancostine

ABC.com is giving RP some love though. His war position video is on the front page.

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## richard1984

> ABC.com is giving RP some love though. His war position video is on the front page.


That's good to hear.  

Snuffalufagus sure didn't give him adequate time.

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## V-rod

Let's wait to see Ron Paul's 80%+ poll fall to 5% and 1000 votes dissapear

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## LizF

> ABC.com is giving RP some love though. His war position video is on the front page.



They don't love him...just our traffic

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## Johnnybags

no need to let the dr explain the inflation tax on national TV.

----------


## Ron Paul Fan

> The loudest applause was for Ron Paul's anti-war statement, though.  (Right?)


When he said, "Just come home" I thought it was the biggest applause of the night.  Hopefully that issue alone will help him at the straw poll since that's all he really got to address.  I think he got to answer twice on the Iraq war, once on Cheney, and once on what he'd do as President.  They skipped him on taxes, the bridge collapse, and health care so that will hurt.  Starting in September there will be a debate basically every week through November so hopefully by then a couple candidates have dropped out and the debates will be more open.

----------


## torchbearer

This country is in serious danger of a Roman Empire style collapse, and the ignorant citizens will be clapping as the walls come crashing down on them... 
If people don't wake up soon we are doomed!
I talk to people about ron paul everyday... people have a glazed look in their eyes...

----------


## Dustancostine

I would say that the crowd was about 60 percent anti-war, and about 40 percent pro-war. RP got some loud applauses on his anti-war stance. Some were even  trying to boo him on it, and the applauses drowned them out. Remember he can't convince everyone.

----------


## 10thAmendmentMan

They only gave Ron a few times to respond and completely skipped him on issues he has a lot to say about (healthcare and taxes).  Wonderful...

----------


## shrugged0106

anyone see this crap?

http://corner.nationalreview.com/pos...gxYjVkM2NiMzM=

I Confess   [Kathryn Jean Lopez]


I overslept. Almost forgot about the Republican debate. Woke up to Iowans cheering Ron Paul. Hit snooze.

----------


## xita

Worst.  Debate. Ever.

----------


## torchbearer

> There's a link on this page: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=3437858&page=1


hmm... it wouldn't let me vote, it just showed me the vote totals when i clicked on the vote button.

----------


## Meistro1

Worst.  Debate.  Ever.

----------


## richard1984

> When he said, "Just come home" I thought it was the biggest applause of the night.  Hopefully that issue alone will help him at the straw poll since that's all he really got to address.  I think he got two answer twice on the Iraq war, once on Cheney, and once on what he'd do as President.  They skipped him on taxes, the bridge collapse, and health care so that will hurt.  Starting in September there will be a debate basically every week through November so hopefully by then a couple candidates have dropped out and the debates will be more open.


They make me want to gag.  Not the best way to wake up in the morning....

But hey, Dr. Paul is killin' 'em in the online polls.  And you can't tell me that other candidates' supporters don't know how to use the internet.  The internet itself is not a Ron Paul phenomenon.  So obviously Ron Paul is awesome.

----------


## SeanEdwards

I feel like turning cannabilistic on stephonopoulos' face.

----------


## Perry

> They don't love him...just our traffic


Think of it as ad time and we're paying for it.

----------


## Dustancostine

BTW: Originally Before the Debate the poll was intitled "Who Will Win the Debate"

During the Debate it said "Who is winning the debate"

After the Debate it said "Who  won the debate"

Now that the good doctor is crushing it is now says again "Who Will Win the Debate"

That way they can't say he won the debate, that that was just pre-debate sentiment.

----------


## richard1984

Obama even gets a sound clip in the GOP debates!  Good Lord....  Can't they just ask questions?

----------


## torchbearer

> anyone see this crap?
> 
> http://corner.nationalreview.com/pos...gxYjVkM2NiMzM=
> 
> I Confess   [Kathryn Jean Lopez]
> 
> 
> I overslept. Almost forgot about the Republican debate. Woke up to Iowans cheering Ron Paul. Hit snooze.


I actually find that funny.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Oh god, if Paul doesn't get the nomination, the Republican Party has no chance in hell to win the Presidency.
> He also needs to interrupt these jokers just like they keep interrupting him!


YES!  He's going to have to start being more forceful!

----------


## Dustancostine

Also I think Huckabee is the one we have to watch out for. He is a good speaker, and took RP stances on just about everything other than the war, which he was some what soft on. Maybe Thompson or Romney has told him to steal RP's stances, to dilute his support in exchange for VP.

----------


## richard1984

> BTW: Originally Before the Debate the poll was intitled "Who Will Win the Debate"
> 
> During the Debate it said "Who is winning the debate"
> 
> After the Debate it said "Who  won the debate"
> 
> Now that the good doctor is crushing it is now says again "Who Will Win the Debate"
> 
> That way they can't say he won the debate, that that was just pre-debate sentiment.


Good catch.  

I wish they could be held accountable for their cheatin' ways!

----------


## quickmike

> hmm... it wouldn't let me vote, it just showed me the vote totals when i clicked on the vote button.



probably because you clicked on a link someone posted after they voted

you need to go to the http://abcnews.go.com/politics link and look in the first box about 8 down and you will see "vote:who will win the debate"

----------


## Electrostatic

We need to DO SOMETHING about them skipping "Dr. Paul" on Healthcare and "The Taxpayers Best Friend" on Taxes...... Pure BS!

----------


## richard1984

> YES!  He's going to have to start being more forceful!


I agree.  But also, he doesn't want to come across as an overbearing $#@! like the rest of them.  I doubt many people are watching this anyway....  I mean, it's church time!

----------


## quickmike

> We need to DO SOMETHING about them skipping "Dr. Paul" on Healthcare and "The Taxpayers Best Friend" on Taxes...... Pure BS!


you cant do anything................ RP has to stick up for himself and go out there and get his time like the other lesser knowns did. Hopefully a bunch of them will be dropping out soon, which i think is gonna happen soon enough. Then Ron will get more time for sure.

----------


## ThePieSwindler

I'm sure im simply reitering the common sentiment here when i say that this debate SUCKED !!!!

I did like that Ron tried to have a little more fire in his belly.. but he got to talk on like 4 issues. He had like what, 3 minutes of face time total? Romney had to have had at least 20 minutes. I cant wait to see the graph of the speaking times for each candidates.. it felt like it was worse than last time. He would have dominated the health care and taxes question - but of course he wasnt asked them!

----------


## Ron Paul Fan

> We need to DO SOMETHING about them skipping "Dr. Paul" on Healthcare and "The Taxpayers Best Friend" on Taxes...... Pure BS!


And the infrastructure question!  Dr. Paul would have gotten a huge applause if he'd said something about spending billions of dollars bombing Iraq's bridges and building them back up again while bridges are defective here at home.  And I agree with whoever said Huckabee was taking some of Dr. Paul's stances.  I guess they might not be that wacky afterall.

----------


## Lois

*Ron Paul could use more Comments here --*

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/comme...ory&id=3394394

----------


## LizF

> Think of it as ad time and we're paying for it.



yes, good point

----------


## richard1984

Haha!  Snuffalufagus just said "excuse me...excuse me!" to the crowd when they were cheering for Dr. Paul.

----------


## LibertyEagle

I'm ticked off.  Snuffles cuts off Dr. Paul and then lets Ghouliani just go on and on and on.

----------


## murph

Ron at 64% of the vote on the ABC poll ...

----------


## SeanEdwards

> I agree.  But also, he doesn't want to come across as an overbearing $#@! like the rest of them.  I doubt many people are watching this anyway....  I mean, it's church time!


He needs to take the opportunity to CONFRONT the other fools on their insane policies. Call them out on their ridiculous monetary policy. Demand that they explain why they constantly vote to debase our currency or something. He needs to let his elbows fly and clear out some space for himself. Being polite in this den of lions is a sure way to end up as lunch.

----------


## LibertyEagle

I agree, Sean.

----------


## MsDoodahs

> This country is in serious danger of a Roman Empire style collapse, and the ignorant citizens will be clapping as the walls come crashing down on them... 
> If people don't wake up soon we are doomed!
> I talk to people about ron paul everyday... people have a glazed look in their eyes...


I would say that this country _is already in the midst of_ a Roman Empire style collapse.

Rome did not fall in a day.  It was a process - over time. 

If you lived in Rome during the time that the empire was crumbling, what would you have seen around you?

----------


## quickmike

you guys need to remember that most people dont give two $#@!s about politics in the summer. Only the hard core political junkies are following things now. If Ron can stick in for the long haul when the masses start paying attention, he will have more talk time when the others drop out............. no worries mates

----------


## LizF

> I'm sure im simply reitering the common sentiment here when i say that this debate SUCKED !!!!
> 
> I did like that Ron tried to have a little more fire in his belly.. but he got to talk on like 4 issues. He had like what, 3 minutes of face time total? Romney had to have had at least 20 minutes. I cant wait to see the graph of the speaking times for each candidates.. it felt like it was worse than last time. He would have dominated the health care and taxes question - but of course he wasnt asked them!



Not only that, but Romney tried to jump in at least once when RP was answering.  Looked like he was trying to have a "Giuliani moment"  and put RP in his place.  RP brushed him off, and when he was finished, GSteph moved on to another candidate, so Romney missed that chance to grandstand.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Not only that, but Romney tried to jump in at least once when RP was answering.  Looked like he was trying to have a "Giuliani moment"  and put RP in his place.  RP brushed him off, and when he was finished, GSteph moved on to another candidate, so Romney missed that chance to grandstand.


Yeah, I noticed that.  WAY TO GO, RON!

----------


## richard1984

Not only did Romney misquote one of the easiest quotes ever: "Speak softly and carry a big stick" (he said "strong stick").  But he also continues to claim that we're in Iraq because "they" attacked us on 9/11.  Does anyone buy this anymore?  Don't they know that everyone knows they're full of $#@!?

----------


## SeanEdwards

> If you lived in Rome during the time that the empire was crumbling, what would you have seen around you?


Hungry Barbarians.

----------


## LibertyEagle

Brownback is such a brown-noser.

I sure wish Doc could steer the conversation to the fact that WE ARE BROKE and the dollar is collapsing!

----------


## Ron Paul Fan

> you guys need to remember that most people dont give two $#@!s about politics in the summer. Only the hard core political junkies are following things now. If Ron can stick in for the long haul when the masses start paying attention, he will have more talk time when the others drop out............. no worries mates


http://shii.org/knows/United_States_...ection%2C_2008

Good point.  I don't know how accurate this link is and when it was last updated, but it shows that there will be a debate basically once a week starting the first week of September through the first week of November.  By then a couple of candidates at least will have dropped out-Hunter for sure, maybe Thompson, Brownback, Huckabee, Tancredo.  Dr. Paul has enough money to get to the first primaries and depending how he does there, maybe to Super Tuesday.  The worst thing that could happen is that only Hunter drops out by then and Fred Thompson joins the race which will kick Dr. Paul to the curb during the debates even further.

----------


## torchbearer

> *Ron Paul could use more Comments here --*
> 
> http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/comme...ory&id=3394394


my comments keep getting deleted... and i know i didn't break their policies on comments.... in fact, a lot of ron paul comments are being deleted. someone complained the 'ron paul campaign' was spamming the comments...

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Not only did Romney misquote one of the easiest quotes ever: "Speak softly and carry a big stick" (he said "strong stick").  But he also continues to claim that we're in Iraq because "they" attacked us on 9/11.  Does anyone buy this anymore?  Don't they know that everyone knows they're full of $#@!?


That's the only thing he has going for him and YES, I think there are a lot of uninformed Americans that still think Iraq was involved with 9-11.

----------


## Dustancostine

RP did a great job with Romney there, but if he would have had more time, he could have taken a shot at Romney's incompetence.

----------


## LibertyEagle

Giuliani is scary.  He's the DICTATOR-in-waiting.

----------


## Dustancostine

Also another interesting note is that Huckabee is in 2nd in the ABC poll. When people hear RP's stances they really like them. Even if they come out of the mouth of another candidate.

----------


## richard1984

> my comments keep getting deleted... and i know i didn't break their policies on comments.... in fact, a lot of ron paul comments are being deleted. someone complained the 'ron paul campaign' was spamming the comments...


Can anyone record this happening?

----------


## LizF

> *Ron Paul could use more Comments here --*
> 
> http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/comme...ory&id=3394394



Thanks for posting this Lois.  

I liked one of the posts (10:42 am):  "Why didn't you call this the Mitt and Rudy Show?"

Sure seemed that way.

----------


## spacebetween

> Also another interesting note is that Huckabee is in 2nd in the ABC poll. When people hear RP's stances they really like them. Even if they come out of the mouth of another candidate.


I'm sure it's already been said in this thread (it's so long!), but Huckabee sounds like he's trying to be RP.

----------


## torchbearer

> Can anyone record this happening?


I was going to try, but the comments page is now not coming up when i refresh.

----------


## rg123

> my comments keep getting deleted... and i know i didn't break their policies on comments.... in fact, a lot of ron paul comments are being deleted. someone complained the 'ron paul campaign' was spamming the comments...


Then we comment till their server rocks if we cant comment no one can, I also have seen multiples of who won and they deleted it. ABC is fraking around with the web live

----------


## richard1984

Haha.  I'd just like to say that Romney looks like he's about to go make a guest appearance on a soap opera--lip gloss and all.

----------


## torchbearer

ok, comments were up to 92, now they are down to 83.

----------


## LibertyEagle

Here's 'ol Mitt talking about the economy.  Camera fades to show a smiling face of his wifey.  Oh... how sweet.   Reduce taxes... improve the economy....  But no mention that our economy is tanking because of friggin' NAFTA, foreign aid, the damn war on a tactic, and runaway borrowing by our gummit.

----------


## Dustancostine

> I'm sure it's already been said in this thread (it's so long!), but Huckabee sounds like he's trying to be RP.


I was the one that said it

----------


## torchbearer

> Then we comment till their server rocks if we cant comment no one can, I also have seen multiples of who won and they deleted it. ABC is fraking around with the web live


then i shall keep posting....

----------


## MsDoodahs

You know, if they (GOP powers that be, media powers that be) were not abso-frikken-lootley terrified of Ron, they'd give him plenty of time to answer questions.  

They'd at least give him enough time to get his ideas out there, because if his ideas are unpopular, they'd fail on their own.

The fact that they continue to try and keep him from answering shows that they are terrified.

----------


## Johnnybags

with the rest guest stars, we are gong to have to do this ourselves and Ron is going to have to buy air time.

----------


## Badger Paul

My ABC affiliate didn't show the last 30 minutes of the debate but hearing what happened it looks like I didn't miss much. Yeah its frustrating RP can only get so much time to speak. Perhaps he should be more aggressive than polite. But when he said bring them home, it was the loudest applause I heard in the first hour. This wasn't South Carolina where RP against everyone it seemed. There's support for his position in Iowa and Iraq is the main issue then RP will benefit from that forceful statement he made.

I thought he did fine with the questions he had to work with and so long as didn't commit any major gaffe that will drown out his message he'll be okay, we won't setback from the task at hand.

Look in  90 minuite debate, most of what was said will be forgotten anyway. With RP, "Bring them home" and the strong reaction is what will be remembered, not anyone's answer on the Fair Tax.

----------


## Roxi

> Wow -- did you see Romney saying "Have you forgot about 9/11" when Ron Paul was saying  "Al Queda had nothing to do with Iraq".  Doesn't everybody know -- 
> 
> *Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11* !



thank you, apparently i was the only one in my house that heard that too.... Romney makes my stomach turn..... yes he actually interrupted RP to say "has he forgotten about 9/11? WTF does 9/11 have to do with Iraq????

and mccain wont answer any damn questions instead he just keeps verifying that he served in effing vietnam, i cant understand half of his answers

and i didn't know too much about huckabee before this but i think he came out pretty strong and might have gained a few supporters but I think anyone who is a ghoul supporter only because hes the 9/11 hero and not because they know anything about him will be turned off after today

----------


## torchbearer

have they taken down the comment section on the ABC website? I keep getting errors on that page.

----------


## michaelwise

I started watching the debate and the station here in SW Florida pulled it off the air, and started airing an infomercial, 15 minutes into it. The station is WZVN(ABC). What do you think is up with that?

----------


## LizF

> You know, if they (GOP powers that be, media powers that be) were not abso-frikken-lootley terrified of Ron, they'd give him plenty of time to answer questions.  
> 
> They'd at least give him enough time to get his ideas out there, because if his ideas are unpopular, they'd fail on their own.
> 
> The fact that they continue to try and keep him from answering shows that they are terrified.


Indeed!

----------


## torchbearer

> I started watching the debate and the station here in SW Florida pulled it off the air, and started airing an infomercial, 15 minutes into it. The station is WZVN(ABC). What do you think is up with that?


Blinders to keep the general public safe from the truth.

----------


## richard1984

Hey.  At least McCain has some sense of humor left.  "check daily on the president's health"--or whatever it was he said.  funny.

----------


## spacebetween

> I started watching the debate and the station here in SW Florida pulled it off the air, and started airing an infomercial, 15 minutes into it. The station is WZVN(ABC). What do you think is up with that?


Because this was the worst time for a televised debate.

----------


## SeanEdwards

I want to see Ron Paul openly ask at one of these debates if ANY of the other candidates can explain the function of the Federal Reserve and why they support it. 

Why doesn't he do something like this? Does anyone think Mitt Romney understands anything at all about the Fed? Ron needs to expose these dorks for what they are, a bunch of stuffed suits.

----------


## torchbearer

Did we crash their comments server?
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=3394394

----------


## rg123

They are starting to remove his votes and comments now just like CNN.  ABC is a Bunch of FRAKIN NAZI'S

----------


## LibertyEagle

> I started watching the debate and the station here in SW Florida pulled it off the air, and started airing an infomercial, 15 minutes into it. The station is WZVN(ABC). What do you think is up with that?


Call them!

----------


## shrugged0106

> my comments keep getting deleted... and i know i didn't break their policies on comments.... in fact, a lot of ron paul comments are being deleted. someone complained the 'ron paul campaign' was spamming the comments...



I wasnt allowed to post at all.  I had left the following comment.

How can a debate be seen as legitimate when all parties are not allowed to answer all questions?  They seemed to go out of their way to avoid Dr. Paul on the 2 strongest issues he espouses as a conservative.  Healthcare (He is the only medical Dr. on stage, I believe) and Taxes, where he is definitely the strongest by a large margin.

This is an outrage and ABC should be taken to task.

Do they really think that folks watching wouldnt notice?

----------


## MsDoodahs

> Did we crash their comments server?
> http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=3394394


Who?

US?

----------


## LibertyEagle

> They are starting to remove his votes and comments now just like CNN.  ABC is a Bunch of FRAKIN NAZI'S


Have any proof that they are jacking with the votes?  He is blowing them away right now.  Currently....544 votes.

----------


## Ron Paul Fan

So Huckabee says we shouldn't spread democracy with force and spend billions of dollars overseas, but he supports the Iraq war and war on terror?  I think he helped him self today though because out of the 2nd tier candidates he probably got the most time to speak.  Does anyone think Tancredo hurt himself the most with him wanting to bomb the holy lands?  Tommy Thompson said something about it being irresponsible and he got applause so I figure it wasn't a popular opinion.

----------


## LibertyEagle

Man.... Snuffles sure is cutting off both Dr. Paul and Hunter.

----------


## richard1984

> They are starting to remove his votes and comments now just like CNN.  ABC is a Bunch of FRAKIN NAZI'S


I hope someone is able to document/record this (get video evidence).

----------


## JosephTheLibertarian

Huckabee can go $#@! himself. I don't want to hear his lame ass. All these worthless guy like Tancredo, Hunter and TThompson do is take away momentum from Dr. Paul, I hope they all get lost somewhere and never return!

I'd like to see Penn Gilette as Dr. Paul's VP!

----------


## LibertyEagle

They're giving Huckabee a lot of time to pontificate.

----------


## Darren McFillintheBlank

..

----------


## LizF

There's a new/post-debate poll.  The other one was pre-debate, though they kept it up during the debate as well for voting.

----------


## richard1984

> If he only has 544 votes in the abc poll something is wrong. I voted 10 minutes ago, RP had 1,976.


I'm seeing 2,156 votes for RP.

----------


## isufferfromronpaulfever

> If he only has 544 votes in the abc poll something is wrong. I voted 10 minutes ago, RP had 1,976.


He's got 2156+ votes. I'm not sure where anybody is getting any other figures... With that being said, the title of the poll is now "Who Will Win The Debate?"... during the debate it was changed to "Who Won The Debate?" 

Big difference. We probably won't ever hear this poll mentioned.

----------


## isufferfromronpaulfever

so where is the new poll?

----------


## spacebetween

Guys, there's a new post-debate poll which, of course, has different numbers.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Decis...pup?id=3436820

----------


## LizF

> They're giving Huckabee a lot of time to pontificate.


Well, he is a pastor, and it is Sunday morning...lol

----------


## angelatc

Live from the debate-watching meetup in Hoffman Estates....

It is clear they are only letting him speak on issues when he deviates from the GOP base.

Argh.

----------


## Ron Paul Fan

> Guys, there's a new post-debate poll which, of course, has different numbers.
> 
> http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Decis...pup?id=3436820


Dr. Paul with a huge lead, and in 2nd- "I'm voting Democrat!"

----------


## richard1984

I'm seeing 470 votes for RP on the "who won" poll.

----------


## LibertyEagle

Damn it.  They didn't let Doc answer the tax question.

----------


## Darren McFillintheBlank

..

----------


## LibertyEagle

Is it my imagination, or are they just wholesale skipping Dr. Paul????

----------


## Darren McFillintheBlank

..

----------


## david.griffus

I'd take Huckabee over the rest of those bozos (other than Ron Paul, of course).  At least he sounds reasonable.  If RP could speak like Huckabee, he would money.

----------


## angelatc

I think some markets saw it live.

----------


## richard1984

> Is it my imagination, or are they just wholesale skipping Dr. Paul????


It's not just you, buddy.  T'hat's what they're doing.

They don't want to "over-intellectualize" this whole "debate" thing.

----------


## spacebetween

Tommy Thompson is so freaking creepy looking.

----------


## LibertyEagle

THEY JUST SKIPPED HIM AGAIN on the question about what mistake they had made in their lives!!

----------


## Darren McFillintheBlank

..

----------


## david.griffus

Tancredo is dead in the water.

----------


## LibertyEagle

What the hell are we going to do about this????  THEY ARE TOTALLY F'ING IGNORING HIM!!!  I have heard Brownback speak 3 damn times and still NO DOCTOR PAUL.

----------


## V-rod

In a way I'm glad they didn't show the 2nd half of the debate in a lot of ABC stations. 
It was embarrassing. I saw Dr. Paul get 50% less response time than the 1st half. 

Hell, it seemed Democrat Obama got more airtime in this debate from his video clip than RP did with all his responses combined.

----------


## torchbearer

> THEY JUST SKIPPED HIM AGAIN on the question about what mistake they had made in their lives!!


He answered that question when i saw it earlier.

----------


## JosephTheLibertarian

This is pathetic. Well, now we know why ABC gets consistent bad rating year after year

----------


## Darren McFillintheBlank

..

----------


## richard1984

> THEY JUST SKIPPED HIM AGAIN on the question about what mistake they had made in their lives!!


Didn't they ask him first?  He said he too soft-spoken, but that he's trying to work on it.

----------


## Electrostatic

New Poll Status...

#1 Ron Paul
#2 Nobody - I'm voting Democrat

----------


## Yggdrasil

This debate pissed me off so much I just gave another 300 dollars to the campaign. I also bought a ticket to Minnesota. I have relatives there, who are 30 minutes from Iowa. I will drive down to Iowa to lend support. 

The mainstream media only motivates me support the doctor more.

----------


## LibertyEagle

Oh yes.... by all means... let's go back to Romney.

DAMN IT... It's the morning and I already need a drink!

----------


## LizF

> THEY JUST SKIPPED HIM AGAIN on the question about what mistake they had made in their lives!!



I think he answered something along the lines of "I don't speak forcefully enough for the cause of liberty"

----------


## Kuldebar

He answered: said his mistakes "have been not talking forcefully enough about restoring the Constitution and liberty"  (paraphrased)

----------


## Darren McFillintheBlank

..

----------


## spacebetween

> Didn't they ask him first?  He said he too soft-spoken, but that he's trying to work on it.


Well, more specifically he said he's too soft-spoken about speaking out for Liberty and the Constitution.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Didn't they ask him first?  He said he too soft-spoken, but that he's trying to work on it.


You sure?  If they did, I completely missed it.

----------


## richard1984

> Tommy Thompson is so freaking creepy looking.


tell me about it.  There are some freaks of nature up on that stage.  I'm Dr. Paul feels very out of place around them.  It's hard to debate with people like this.  They're slippery and rancid like dead fish on a dock.

----------


## Teflon Master

Thank goodness no one watched this trash.

----------


## Electrostatic

Ya, Darren.. I was listening live.. They skipped him on Healthcare AND Taxes

----------


## V-rod

> Didn't they ask him first?  He said he too soft-spoken, but that he's trying to work on it.


The only moment RP had was when he told Romney to let him finish when Romney  was throwing around his smart ass remarks. Wish RP would have told him off like he did to that fat guy in Morton Downy show

----------


## LibertyEagle

Dr. Paul should have used his last statement to his advantage more.  Everyone else is taking more time.  He could have said something about our economy,etc.  He can't keep on missing opportunities to get his message out there.

----------


## richard1984

That was it...?  That was pathetic.  ABC blows.

----------


## freelance

I'm SO glad this debate was on a Sunday morning. Most people are sleeping in, reading the NYT or at church--THANK GOD! And, the people we need to reach aren't hanging out on YouTube.

----------


## Darren McFillintheBlank

..

----------


## Ron Paul Fan

> Ya, Darren.. I was listening live.. They skipped him on Healthcare AND Taxes


And abortion and the bridge collapse...

----------


## LibertyEagle

I sadly don't think we made any big advances in this debate.  I sure hope the RP troops on the ground in Iowa are hitting it hard getting the word out to Iowans.

----------


## Darren McFillintheBlank

..

----------


## JosephTheLibertarian

This is why ABC is like last, every day, every month, every year, consistently dead bottom behind every other network.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> I'm SO glad this debate was on a Sunday morning. Most people are sleeping in, reading the NYT or at church--THANK GOD! And, the people we need to reach aren't hanging out on YouTube.


I know, but that is our campaign's weak point. We've got to get out in the field, going door-to-door, or whatever the hell it takes, to get the word out.  We aren't going to win this on the internet alone.

----------


## Kuldebar

Many of the candidates are "borrowing" Ron Paul's language. They are using rhetoric to try to get Paul lost in the crowd and not be as distinct. Some people may be fooled.

----------


## SeanEdwards

> The only moment RP had was when he told Romney to let him finish when Romney  was throwing around his smart ass remarks. Wish RP would have told him off like he did to that fat guy in Morton Downy show


No kidding. He should've said "One second, Flipper"

----------


## JosephTheLibertarian

> Many of the candidates are "borrowing" Ron Paul's language. They are using rhetoric to try to get Paul lost in the crowd and not be as distinct. Some people may be fooled.


Yeah, a bunch of morons they are.

----------


## Darren McFillintheBlank

..

----------


## Swmorgan77

> Romney just said Musharaff is an example of democracy and freedom... does he want that same "freedom" in America?  The freedom of a military theocracy brutally silencing dissent?


WOW.  His idiocy is astounding.  I promise people, all Mormons are not like this guy.

----------


## richard1984

> RP winning post debate poll with 750. Romney next with 98.
> 
> http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Decis...pup?id=3436820


Weird.  I've got 1,184 for RP, and 168 for Romney.  That's a big jump in numbers over a short period of time.  I guess it's because the debate is over....

----------


## Kuldebar

You notice how Mitt seems to think that everything started with 9/11 and that invading Iraq actually seemed to be a natural reaction to 9/11...and that 75 years of  US foreign involvement never happened?

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Yeah, a bunch of morons they are.


Most people are just busy working.  Not everyone is as much into this whole deal, as we are.  We have to figure out a way to get the word out to them.  Some are not ever going to spend hours on the internet, reading Dr. Paul's speeches, to find out what he's about.  Some, won't spend 1 minute on the internet, other than email.  Others don't have the internet at all, other than at work, if even that.

What are we going to do about it?  We'd better figure it out.

----------


## JosephTheLibertarian

> You notice how Mitt seems to think that everything started with 9/11 and that invading Iraq actually seemed to be a natural reaction to 9/11...and that 75 years of  US foreign involvement never happened?


They wouldn't abandon their positions even if they believe they're in the wrong. Flip flopping is the death of any candidate.

----------


## torchbearer

> Weird.  I've got 1,184 for RP, and 168 for Romney.  That's a big jump in numbers over a short period of time.  I guess it's because the debate is over....


Ron Paul1,353
Mitt Romney199
Rudy Giuliani162
Mike Huckabee161
Nobody won. I'm voting Democratic.155

----------


## yongrel

1,349 in the ABC poll now

----------


## richard1984

> You notice how Mitt seems to think that everything started with 9/11 and that invading Iraq actually seemed to be a natural reaction to 9/11...and that 75 years of  US foreign involvement never happened?


yup.  And he's not alone.  Too bad our politicians aren't educated.  Seems like they should _at least_ be qualified for their jobs--i.e., they should know facts and $#@!.

----------


## Kuldebar

I have to say, this was the weakest debate yet, not so much for Paul's answers...but the debate was weak, almost choreographed to keep Paul from seeming too "different". They lobbed the Iraq War issue early on, and then nothing.  

And Paul's opponent's seemed to curiously echo Paul's own words about things...but in their screwy way.

----------


## G-khan

> RP: I would restore openess to govt; secrecy not good; transparent govt; I think we could improve on that


I think he should have said I will restore the Constitution to the White House. 

Now that would have been a home run....

----------


## torchbearer

Ron Paul1,484
Mitt Romney225
Mike Huckabee183
Rudy Giuliani179
Nobody won. I'm voting Democratic.172

----------


## JosephTheLibertarian

> yup.  And he's not alone.  Too bad our politicians aren't educated.  Seems like they should _at least_ be qualified for their jobs--i.e., they should know facts and $#@!.


This is why the founders wanted a LIMITED government  politicians need not know anything in order to hold office. Let is presume them to be morons. All politicians receive is lessons on how to propose and write legislation, that's all. They use this uber skill to win votes and pass legislation for the special interest groups that financially back their campaigns every election year.

----------


## torchbearer

Ron Paul1,574
Mitt Romney246
Mike Huckabee205
Rudy Giuliani185
Nobody won. I'm voting Democratic.184

----------


## McDermit

Jesus, some if these guys are really off their rockers.

----------


## Roxi

a quote from the abc comments... if this is true and not just a rp supporter in disguise then this is so awesome




> This is the first Republican event I've watched in this long election term. I am a registered democrat but that doesn't mean I only vote for democrats, I want to get all of the information to make a sound vote on election day. Coming in to this debate, I had heard that there were a few key candidates, mainly Giuliani and McCain. After watching this debate, I felt both of those candidates side-stepped past more than three questions each and the clear leader (as far as having decisive answers, American values, and a concrete policy plan) would have to be Congressman Dr. Ron Paul, followed by Governor Mike Huckabee. Is it just media bias that had me coming in expecting something completely different or am I missing something here?

----------


## torchbearer

> a quote from the abc comments... if this is true and not just a rp supporter in disguise then this is so awesome


it reads like a real post.

----------


## torchbearer

Ron Paul1,740
Mitt Romney267
Mike Huckabee248
Rudy Giuliani205
Nobody won. I'm voting Democratic.203

----------


## JasonM

Fox news is saying Mike Huckabee won the debate......

----------


## Kuldebar

BTW, can we leave some flaming newspaper wrapped doo doo on George Snufflegupolaus' front door step?

----------


## JosephTheLibertarian

> Fox news is saying Mike Huckabee won the debate......


Based on what? The wind?

----------


## nayjevin

> Based on what? The wind?


well.... as for effectiveness, i think he did win.

the scary part is that fox admits it.

because they'll admit anyone but ron paul?  or because he's the new 'sexy' candidate?

----------


## interpaul

Since McCain is pretty much out, that leaves Flip Romney and Benito Giuliani. Just tell people Romney's Mormon: Most Americans are so bigoted that they can't see past this. Most Americans won't vote for a Mormon. 

Please understand I have nothing against Mormons but perception is reality so we have to use every tool to our advantage.

----------


## JosephTheLibertarian

> well.... as for effectiveness, i think he did win.
> 
> the scary part is that fox admits it.
> 
> because they'll admit anyone but ron paul?  or because he's the new 'sexy' candidate?


I wouldn't know, I mute the tv unless Ron Paul is speaking.

----------


## spacebetween

> well.... as for effectiveness, i think he did win.
> 
> the scary part is that fox admits it.
> 
> because they'll admit anyone but ron paul?  or because he's the new 'sexy' candidate?


Huckabee is all but sexy. And besides that, he talks like a PASTOR. Of course Fox News promotes him... their target audience loves to hear the pastor speak.

----------


## JosephTheLibertarian

> Huckabee is all but sexy. And besides that, he talks like a PASTOR. Of course Fox News promotes him... their target audience loves to hear the pastor speak.


Yeah, that Jerry Falwell thing. What a fraud that guy was

----------


## brumans

Anyone have a video link for the debate/ron paul portions of the debate?  I only caught the last 30 minutes.

----------


## rg123

Huckabee tries to steal Rons statements without being obvisous I have noticed it since the very first debate and alot of the dems are too take all the pup Obama is getting on the msm about going after Osama all the while Ron has legislation on the floor to catch Osama. But yet they never mention Ron

----------


## rg123

Ron is almost 2,000 votes ahead

----------


## james1906

> Ron is almost 2,000 votes ahead


even with the "i'm voting democrat" and the "fred thompson" options.  snuffles just doesn't realize people love freedom.


honorable mention to tancredo.  i disagree with much of what he says, but at least he sticking it to the establishment.

----------


## PatriotOne

Watching this debate is absolute torture    The only saving grace is that it is obvious that the war is what is dividing the audience and hopefully representative of the real world voters.  People are either for or against this war period and it seems that it is divided equally (according to applause).

That means 50% for RP and 50% divided amongst the 8 bobbleheads who do not have a freaking clue and I wouldn't entrust them to walk my f*cking dog.

GS needs to be taken to Guatanamo Bay and tortured for ignoring RP.  And RP needs to be spanked for not being more aggressive and demanding airtime  .

----------


## MsDoodahs

> No kidding. He should've said "One second, Flipper"


lol...

----------


## Thomas_Paine

> I feel like turning cannabilistic on stephonopoulos' face.


That is the funniest comment on this thread so far!  But remember its Steponallofus

----------


## torchbearer

Ron Paul2,870
Mitt Romney489
Mike Huckabee488
Rudy Giuliani379
Nobody won. I'm voting Democratic.304

----------


## Kuldebar

> But remember its Steponallofus


I prefer he be known as _Stuffedphallus_.

----------


## james1906

LOL Tancredo gave Rudy a reading assignment too.

----------


## torchbearer

Huckabee pulls ahead of Romney. Paul still commands the lead.

Ron Paul3,151
Mike Huckabee554
Mitt Romney528
Rudy Giuliani404
Nobody won. I'm voting Democratic.330

----------


## B964

I Dr. Paul was a little to polite. He never tried to interupt, and he waited to speak until the clapping stopped from last comment. 
It is very statesman like but he lost some airtime.

Who does Thompsons voice sound like? There was a cartoon or something but I can not think of it.

----------


## Chelle

Rp 3275

----------


## torchbearer

Ron Paul3,379
Mike Huckabee600
Mitt Romney560
Rudy Giuliani421
Nobody won. I'm voting Democratic.354

----------


## PatriotOne

> Huckabee pulls ahead of Romney. Paul still commands the lead.
> 
> Ron Paul3,151
> Mike Huckabee554
> Mitt Romney528
> Rudy Giuliani404
> Nobody won. I'm voting Democratic.330


I'm taking screenshots every 5 or 10 minutes of the poll in case of funny business

----------


## torchbearer

drudge report numbers are going up really fast for ron paul.

----------


## torchbearer

Ron Paul3,447
Mike Huckabee616
Mitt Romney567
Rudy Giuliani431
Nobody won. I'm voting Democratic.360

----------


## interpaul

Since McCain is pretty much out, that leaves Flip Romney and Benito Giuliani. Just tell people Romney's Mormon: Most Americans are so bigoted that they can't see past this. Most Americans won't vote for a Mormon.

Please understand I have nothing against Mormons but perception is reality so we have to use every tool to our advantage. And if you don't want to use this, just tell people about his Flip Romney moniker: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

With Giuliani, there are too many things: 

1) He married Regina Peruggi, his 2nd cousin. (incest is best i guess)
2) He's been divorced twice and married three times; Family stability is definitely his forte: Sarcasm's mine.
3) He is a known public crossdresser on several occassions including SNL, GOP functions, 2000 Mayor's Inner Circle Press Roast with Donald Trump as his husband, etc.)
SOURCE: http://www.gay.com/news/article.html?2007/04/16/2
4) He advocates illegal immigration. SOURCE: http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/favorban.../giuliani.html
5) He flip flips...A LOT SOURCE: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

I'm not saying to use slander but since lamestream media is censoring, then we have to play their game as well. Buena suerte, everybody!

----------


## richard1984

Just as a side note (this elicits no response): Did anyone else kinda think that McCain was hung-over?  Not that I can blame him.  I'm sure I would've been, too, if I were him.  Hell, I would have gone in there wasted.  Why not?
obviously I'm joking, but he did seem very subdued.  I almost feel sorry for him...but it's hard to feel sorry for someone who supports war like he does.  Seems like after going through what he went through (being a POW and all) he would be more anti-war--not more pro-war.
I don't get it...not that it matters....  I just don't see the romance in war.  I mean, we're not playing cowboys and Indians here.

----------


## Bro.Butch

> Since McCain is pretty much out, that leaves Flip Romney and Benito Giuliani. Just tell people Romney's Mormon: Most Americans are so bigoted that they can't see past this. Most Americans won't vote for a Mormon.
> 
> Please understand I have nothing against Mormons but perception is reality so we have to use every tool to our advantage. And if you don't want to use this, just tell people about his Flip Romney moniker: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search
> 
> With Giuliani, there are too many things: 
> 
> 1) He married Regina Peruggi, his 2nd cousin. (incest is best i guess)
> 2) He's been divorced twice and married three times; Family stability is definitely his forte: Sarcasm's mine.
> 3) He is a known public crossdresser on several occassions including SNL, GOP functions, 2000 Mayor's Inner Circle Press Roast with Donald Trump as his husband, etc.)
> ...



ABSOLUTELY, we have to start knocking the numbers down on the opposition. It was also reported his son doesn't even want to talk to him !


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzZC92IXHyw
Romney's Flip-flops on Abortion	   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZe1j4csMq8&NR=1
Ghouliani supports Taxpayer Funded Abortion

----------


## mesler

Sounds like the winner of the debate was the MSM.  I usually walk away disgusted after watching these so-called debates, since in all honesty they are sound-bite farms.  What a sad state our republic is in, that we cannot even have an honest debate.

Off I go to send more money to the campaign.

----------


## SeanEdwards

> Just as a side note (this elicits no response): Did anyone else kinda think that McCain was hung-over?  Not that I can blame him.  I'm sure I would've been, too, if I were him.  Hell, I would have gone in there wasted.  Why not?
> obviously I'm joking, but he did seem very subdued.  I almost feel sorry for him...but it's hard to feel sorry for someone who supports war like he does.  Seems like after going through what he went through (being a POW and all) he would be more anti-war--not more pro-war.
> I don't get it...not that it matters....  I just don't see the romance in war.  I mean, we're not playing cowboys and Indians here.


McCain looked TERRIBLE. He looked shaky, and uncertain. He struggled to put sentences together. He even said that his biggest mistake was volunteering to stay in combat because that choice led to him becoming a POW! What was he thinking? A military guy volunteering to stay in the fight and rejecting a free boatride home was a *mistake??* Are you kidding me? What is he saying, the smarter choice would have been to wimp out, shirk his duty, and thereby save his own ass? Wow, that's really strong leadership.

----------


## Kuldebar

> McCain looked TERRIBLE. He looked shaky, and uncertain. He struggled to put sentences together. He even said that his biggest mistake was volunteering to stay in combat because that choice led to him becoming a POW! What was he thinking? A military guy volunteering to stay in the fight and rejecting a free boatride home was a _mistake??_ Are you kidding me? What is he saying, the smarter choice would have been to wimp out, shirk his duty, and thereby save his own ass? Wow, that's really strong leadership.


Yeah, he was attempting to milk his wartime service and prisoner of wardom in an undeclared war once again. Don't get me wrong, I can respect the sacrifice and the suffering, but not when it is so plainly used on a political resume by the candidate himself.

----------


## foofighter20x

Did they have user video questions?

Was mine used??

----------


## kylejack

> McCain looked TERRIBLE. He looked shaky, and uncertain. He struggled to put sentences together. He even said that his biggest mistake was volunteering to stay in combat because that choice led to him becoming a POW! What was he thinking? A military guy volunteering to stay in the fight and rejecting a free boatride home was a *mistake??* Are you kidding me? What is he saying, the smarter choice would have been to wimp out, shirk his duty, and thereby save his own ass? Wow, that's really strong leadership.


Take it easy, the guy was tortured after he made that decision.

----------


## Roxi

> Anyone have a video link for the debate/ron paul portions of the debate?  I only caught the last 30 minutes.



heres all of the clips


http://www.youtube.com/user/IowaVoice

----------


## SeanEdwards

> Yeah, he was attempting to milk his wartime service and prisoner of wardom in an undeclared war once again. Don't get me wrong, I can respect the sacrifice and the suffering, but not when it is so plainly used on a political resume by the candidate himself.


I guess he was trying to remind everyone that he had been a POW. But why did he do it by saying that he regretted not being a wuss and avoiding his duty? He thinks performing his duty was the biggest mistake of his life? That is a total logic meltdown. The poor bastard needs to retire. He isn't fit to fight his way out of wet paper bag and he's talking about leading the country through a century of endless war? It's embarrasing to see the guy reduced to this pathetic spectacle.

----------


## CurtisLow



----------


## Kuldebar

> Take it easy, the guy was tortured after he made that decision.


Way to miss the point.

----------


## james1906

> I guess he was trying to remind everyone that he had been a POW. But why did he do it by saying that he regretted not being a wuss and avoiding his duty? He thinks performing his duty was the biggest mistake of his life? That is a total logic meltdown. The poor bastard needs to retire. He isn't fit to fight his way out of wet paper bag and he's talking about leading the country through a century of endless war? It's embarrasing to see the guy reduced to this pathetic spectacle.


Get some cinnamon and sugar, because McCain is toast!

----------


## SeanEdwards

> Take it easy, the guy was tortured after he made that decision.


Military people are expected to die if necessary in carrying out their duty. He can regret the consequences of doing his duty, but he should never have admitted that he regretted making the right choice.

----------


## Kuldebar

> I guess he was trying to remind everyone that he had been a POW. But why did he do it by saying that he regretted not being a wuss and avoiding his duty? He thinks performing his duty was the biggest mistake of his life? That is a total logic meltdown. The poor bastard needs to retire. He isn't fit to fight his way out of wet paper bag and he's talking about leading the country through a century of endless war? It's embarrasing to see the guy reduced to this pathetic spectacle.


That's what I am saying, he's so eager to bring focus on his sacrifice he used a rather contorted method of doing so by choosing to answer the question the way he did.

*Stuffedphallus:* What your most defining mistake?

*Jesus:* I allowed the Roman Centurions to take me prisoner in the Garden of Gethsemane.

----------


## kylejack

> Way to miss the point.


When you're being treated like that, you're bound to wonder if maybe you had made the wrong choice.  That was only half of his answer, though.  He also mentioned his participation in the Savings and Loan scandal.

----------


## Original_Intent

Overall, the worst debate to date.

Mitt seemed to be "the anointed" especially with all the shots of his wife thrown in.
Giuliani was given plenty of time to talk, but I don't think he helped himself.
Huckabee probably did himself the most good by morphing into Ron Paul.
I think McCain did the most damage to himself. Especially early in the debate he looked like crap, seemed completely unsure of himself, acted like he was at his own funeral.

Sadly, I thought our man fell a little flat this time. No gaffs and he did get a few good points in during his limited time. but he seemed tired and sadly it was not the Ron Paul that we have been seeing at rallies.

I expect when he gets a chance to speak AT LENGTH next Saturday at the straw poll that he will win over a lot more people. I am guessing he is going to be living in Iowa this week (?) if he gets out and speaks at length to groups he is going to do well I think.

----------


## kylejack

> Military people are expected to die if necessary in carrying out their duty. He can regret the consequences of doing his duty, but he should never have admitted that he regretted making the right choice.


Frankly I don't think we have the right to critique people in such a manner, people who sacrificed so much at the whim of their country.

----------


## Kuldebar

> When you're being treated like that, you're bound to wonder if maybe you had made the wrong choice.  That was only half of his answer, though.  He also mentioned his participation in the Savings and Loan scandal.


The second half of his answer was fine, the first portion of his answer was a pathetic attempt to once again highlight his Vietnam prisoner of war status.

----------


## Paulitician

Has anyone posted exactly how much time each candidate took up in the debate?

----------


## Kuldebar

> Frankly I don't think we have the right to critique people in such a manner, people who sacrificed so much at the whim of their country.


That smacks of holy cow and a bunch of bull.

Blind "patriotism" is the cause of many of our current woes because it discourages people from actually thinking things through.

Related to the same crap that's spouted: _it's wartime we have to stand behind the president and not question anything._

----------


## richard1984

> Has anyone posted exactly how much time each candidate took up in the debate?


I'd like to know this, too.  It'll probably be figured out before too long.

----------


## SeanEdwards

> Frankly I don't think we have the right to critique people in such a manner, people who sacrificed so much at the whim of their country.


You ever been in the military?

The worst insult imaginable within the military world is to be called a quitter. McCain said his worst mistake was not being a quitter. I suppose it might have been a misstatement, because he was trying to figure out some way to work his POW experience into the answer.

What he should have said was, "My worst mistake was breaking left, instead of right, when I saw that dirty commie missile coming at me." That would have served the same purpose of reminding everyone of his war hero status, without making it sound like he wished he had punked out and taken a carnival cruise instead of staying in the fight.

----------


## Kuldebar

> You ever been in the military?
> 
> The worst insult imaginable within the military world is to be called a quitter. McCain said his worst mistake was not being a quitter. I suppose it might have been a misstatement, because he was trying to figure out some way to work his POW experience into the answer.
> 
> What he should have said was, "My worst mistake was breaking left, instead of right, when I saw that dirty commie missile coming at me." That would have served the same purpose of reminding everyone of his war hero status, without making it sound like he wished he had punked out and taken a carnival cruise instead of staying in the fight.



See, Sean gets it.

----------


## kylejack

> You ever been in the military?
> 
> The worst insult imaginable within the military world is to be called a quitter. McCain said his worst mistake was not being a quitter. I suppose it might have been a misstatement, because he was trying to figure out some way to work his POW experience into the answer.
> 
> What he should have said was, "My worst mistake was breaking left, instead of right, when I saw that dirty commie missile coming at me." That would have served the same purpose of reminding everyone of his war hero status, without making it sound like he wished he had punked out and taken a carnival cruise instead of staying in the fight.


The war in Vietnam had nothing to do with our national security.  Quitting that horrible war would not have been a mistake.

----------


## Kuldebar

> The war in Vietnam had nothing to do with our national security.  Quitting that horrible war would not have been a mistake.


Now you are just leap frogging.

----------


## Shellshock1918

Paul really owned Romney when Romney said "have you forgotten 9-11?"

What a tool.

----------


## Ron Paul Fan

> Paul really owned Romney when Romney said "have you forgotten 9-11?"
> 
> What a tool.


Yep, and this is where Dr. Paul shined in the debate.  He was aggressive and adamant about his stance.  Romney tried to butt in like Giuliani and Paul stood his ground.

----------


## MozoVote

> Paul really owned Romney when Romney said "have you forgotten 9-11?"
> 
> What a tool.


I like that moment a lot. Ron just stuck his arm out there as if to brush away an annoying mosquito. Heh heh

Be sure to DIGG that clip! 

http://digg.com/2008_us_elections/Ro..._at_GOP_Debate

----------


## kalami

> Yep, and this is where Dr. Paul shined in the debate.  He was aggressive and adamant about his stance.  Romney tried to butt in like Giuliani and Paul stood his ground.


That's exactly what Romney was doing and try to capture some of that debate "glory" that Giuliani got.  He's so phony and obvious.  The fact he has supporters at all really opens my eyes to how many idiots are out there.

----------


## SeanEdwards

> The war in Vietnam had nothing to do with our national security.  Quitting that horrible war would not have been a mistake.


If you'd ever served in the miltiary you would understand what I'm talking about with the quitter thing. The military is totally pathological about quitters. It's just not accepted. You can die, but you can't quit. To even admit that you think about quitting puts a stink on you. It may be the one unforgivable sin.

----------


## fj45lvr

> It's not just you, buddy.  T'hat's what they're doing.
> 
> They don't want to "over-intellectualize" this whole "debate" thing.


Does anyone actually believe that a Democrat Operative like George is going to do anything that would make any republican sound intelligent, honest, and with half a brain??  I don't think so....they would much rather roast these morons for their continued support of failure...I was against the war and knew it was coming months and months in advance....I knew it would end up giving the Dems power....huge mistake on almost any front (fiscally, politically, morally, future security wise).   

George and Co. know that Paul would be BAD JUJU for their socialist friends so they have to "tight rope"....on one hand the financial thieves and these guys on the otherside....but though you walk through the valley of the shadow of death Ron will fear NO EVIL!!!!  God Speed Dr. Paul.

----------


## LibertyEagle

Romney is just a pretty boy.  No substance.

----------

