# Lifestyles & Discussion > Open Discussion >  Biker Shootout in Waco: Multiple fatalities

## Carlybee

> .  WACO: (May 17, 2015) Three rival motorcycle gangs turned a local restaurant into a shooting gallery Sunday afternoon and when the gunfire was over, nine people were dead and several were injured.
> 
> Waco police Sunday afternoon, assisted by Department of Public Safety troopers, police officers from several cities and deputies from the McLennan County Sheriff's Office were surrounding the Twin Peaks Restaurant, in the Central Texas Market Place after several people were reported shot during a rival motorcycle gang fight, Waco police Sgt. W. Patrick Swanton said.


http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/W...ice=tablet&c=y

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## aGameOfThrones

> WACO, Texas (AP)  Nine people were killed Sunday and some others injured after a shootout erupted among rival biker gangs at a Central Texas restaurant, sending patrons and bystanders fleeing for safety, a police spokesman said.
> 
> The violence erupted shortly after noon at a busy Waco marketplace along Interstate 35 that draws a large lunchtime crowd. Waco police Sgt. W. Patrick Swanton said eight people died at the scene of the shooting at Twin Peaks restaurant and another person at a hospital. It's not immediately clear if bystanders are among the dead.
> 
> Others were injured, Swanton said, but just how many and the severity of those injuries was not known.
> 
> "There are still bodies on the scene of the parking lot at Twin Peaks," he said. "There are bodies that are scattered throughout the parking lot of the next adjoining business."
> 
> A photo from the scene showed dozens of motorcycles parked in a lot. Among the bikes, at least three people wearing what looked like biker jackets were on the ground, two on their backs and one face down. Police were standing a few feet away in a group. Several other people also wearing biker jackets were standing or sitting nearby.
> ...




http://news.yahoo.com/multiple-injur...204703808.html

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## Zippyjuan

Oops!

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## William Tell

Wow. I have a family member working awful close to there today. He's fine. Prayers that this does not escalate more would be appreciated.

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## twomp

riding through this world....

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## tod evans

Banditos, Cossacks and who else?

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## William Tell

Schimitars judging by the picture. http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/17/us/tex...ing/index.html

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## tod evans

> sundance says:
> May 17, 2015 at 5:43 pm
> This is a long way from being over. HUNDREDS of bikers are streaming into the area. Police are trying to swarm all over the city as retaliatory gunfights are breaking out all over.


http://theconservativetreehouse.com/...es-in-gunfire/

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## tod evans

From Drudge;


*UPDATE: Police sergeant says Twin Peaks biker gang shooting ‘the most violent crime scene I have ever been involved in’*

http://www.wacotrib.com/news/police/...ef08a2a87.html

UPDATE, 6:00 p.m.: Waco police Sgt. W. Patrick Swanton said part of the altercation that preceded Sunday’s biker gang shooting at Twin Peaks started in a restroom, spilled into bar, then into the parking lot.
At least two of the gangs were trying to do some recruiting in the area Sunday, and Twin Peaks was a known place for that kind of activity, Swanton said. Multiple law enforcement sources confirmed that the Bandidos and Cossacks biker gangs were at the center of the incident.
“In 34 years of law enforcement, this is the most violent crime scene I have ever been involved in,” Swanton said.
“There is blood everywhere. We will probably approach the number of 100 weapons.”
“What happened here today could have been avoided ... They failed and this is what happened,” referring to the Twin Peaks local management.
“Next door were families dining in Don Carlos,” he added. “Twenty-five feet away there were families.”
Swanton continued, “This is one of the worst gun fights we’ve ever had in the city limits. They started shooting at our officers.”
He added, “None of our innocent civilians were injured today in this melee.”
Officials are interviewing people of interest in multiple areas, he said, and while there are no other active crime scenes, there have been scuffles and disturbances throughout the city.
“The unfortunate side of gangs such as these is that they work intel just like we do,” he said.
Central Texas Marketplace was closed entirely Sunday because of additional bikers coming to the scene, including the three arrested earlier.
UPDATE, 5:00 p.m.: Officials are hearing reports and seeing evidence of many biker gang members coming into town from throughout the state. In response, police are moving some witnesses to a secure location, said Waco police Sgt. W. Patrick Swanton.
Multiple police sources confirmed that the Bandidos and Cossacks biker gangs were involved in Sunday’s shooting.
Swanton said police have also stepped up the law enforcement presence in the area, but won’t say what else officials are doing to prepare.
At least 18 people are confirmed injured, in addition to the nine confirmed dead. Most of the injured have gunshot or stab wounds, and some have suffered both. Some of those injured have been transferred to other hospitals for their own safety, Swanton said.
Swanton added officials are in the process of shutting down all of Central Texas Marketplace.
“We don’t feel it is safe to keep these businesses open,” Swanton said.
Three additional biker gang members were arrested with weapons and taken to the McLennan County Jail on charges of engaging in organized crime. The sergeant said police will charge suspects with the most severe charges possible.
There are still a large number of people being detained, he noted.
“This is not something we’re playing around with,” Swanton said. “This is a major crime scene. ... It is a pretty gruesome scene.”
UPDATE, 4:00 p.m.: At least nine people are confirmed dead in a shooting around noon Sunday at Twin Peaks restaurant, said Waco police Sgt. W. Patrick Swanton.
All of the fatalities are members of biker gangs. No patrons, servers or law enforcement officials were killed, Swanton said.
There is a very significant increase in law enforcement in McLennan County right now, Swanton said. Local, county, state and federal agencies are involved in investigations into the biker gangs.
DPS and intelligence agents were working on the investigation long before today and Waco police have been aware of the inquest for more than a month, said Swanton.
Twin Peaks and Don Carlos were closed down after the shooting, and witnesses are being questioned on the scene and at the police department, according to the sergeant.
“The management wanted them here,” Swanton said of Twin Peaks officials. “Management knew that there were issues, and we were here, but they continued to let those groups of people into their business.”
Brad Doan, general manager of the Twin Peaks at Central Texas Marketplace, said the restaurant did not have an immediate statement in response to the shootings or Swanton’s claim that Twin Peaks was not cooperative with police until after Sunday’s shootings. Doan referred all questions to Twin Peaks’ corporate management. They were unable to be immediately reached Sunday afternoon.
Numerous people have been detained, but it is not clear how many people have been taken into custody.
“A lot of innocent people could have been injured today,” Swanton said. “These are very dangerous, hostile criminal biker gangs.”
There were at least three rival gangs on the scene when the shooting occurred, Swanton said, though he did not immediately provide the names of the gangs.
At least 12 Waco officers, including a SWAT team, and other DPS troopers were at Twin Peaks or in the immediate area when the incident broke out.
Waco police officers moved in and did fire rounds during the incident, Swanton said, praising their quick response.
“Their action has saved lives by keeping this from spilling into a busy Sunday morning,” he said.
Eight people were confirmed dead on the scene and one other at the hospital, Swanton added.
Helicopters continued to fly overhead about 4 p.m., and officials asked citizens not to come near the area.
ORIGINAL STORY: Multiple people were killed or injured in a shooting that started just after noon Sunday inside Twin Peaks restaurant in Central Texas Marketplace and involved two biker gangs.
Officials would not immediately release information about the number of people who were either killed or injured.
Police also would not immediately say if any of the injured parties were restaurant servers or patrons but said no law-enforcement officials were injured, said Waco police Sgt. W. Patrick Swanton.
The altercation began inside Twin Peaks and spilled into the parking lot, Swanton said.
One witness described the dangerous, chaotic scene as something akin to a war zone.
“There were maybe 30 guns being fired in the parking lot, maybe 100 rounds,” said Michelle Logan, 37, who was at Twin Peaks at the time of the shooting and said she knows some of the victims.
“They just opened fire.”
Logan said she saw several people injured by the shooting.
“There’s a lot of people in the hospital, a lot of people shot,” she said, adding that people scattered after the shooting began.
The incident did not appear to be random, Logan said.
“It was a set up,” she said.
The meeting between the two biker gangs was being monitored by police before the incident started, Swanton said, after officials became aware that the gangs were frequenting the establishment.
Swanton said management at the restaurant was not cooperative with police until after the shooting Sunday.
Officers quickly had bikers at gunpoint after the altercation moved into the parking lot. Suspects were being held at bay as far from the doors of Twin Peaks as the Interstate 35 access road.
Officials called the scene “secure but active” as of about 2:30 p.m.
Officers said there were multiple types of weapons used, including guns, chains, knives, bats and clubs.
Officers from Lacy Lakeview, the McLennan County Sheriff’s Office and multiple other agencies were on scene, as well as ambulances from as far as Limestone County.
Officials locked down Don Carlos restaurant, which is next door to Twin Peaks.
It was not immediately known how many people were taken into custody.
Victims were taken to both Baylor Scott & White Hillcrest Medical Center and Providence Health Center.
I-35 traffic has been diverted from the area.
Officials would not release more information about the circumstances of the incident, or if it was related to others throughout the city.

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## William Tell

> *UPDATE: Police sergeant says Twin Peaks biker gang shooting the most violent crime scene I have ever been involved in*


No $#@!. The only thing of similar scale in Central Texas in the past 20 years that I know of was the big shooting at Ft. Hood. Of course, the slaughter of the Branch Davidians was the worst, about 22 years ago.

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## tod evans

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative...e-3157118.html




> Apparently police were involved in the gunfight.  Waco is currently being invaded by Bandidos and Cossacks.  There WILL be retaliation.  Stay tuned…

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## specsaregood

> At least 12 Waco officers, including a SWAT team, and other DPS troopers were at Twin Peaks or in the immediate area when the incident broke out.


good job boys!  got some good front row seats to the melee.

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## presence

body count now 10

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## surf

at the risk of offending someone here, there really is something baffling about middle aged men being in "motorcycle gangs." I can't even blame it on viet-nam or the '70s anymore. guess it's just tough for some to grow up and be respectful adults.

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## 69360

Who are the Cossacks and Schimitars? Support clubs for? I've heard of Bandidos, they are an OMC.

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## TheTexan

Looks like there was a clear winner in which gang won the shootout

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## wizardwatson

> at the risk of offending someone here, there really is something baffling about middle aged men being in "motorcycle gangs." I can't even blame it on viet-nam or the '70s anymore. guess it's just tough for some to grow up and be respectful adults.


It's organized crime.  What's baffling about it?

"Also, Dude, 'motorcycle gang' is not the preferred nomenclature. 'Motorcycle Club', please." - Walter

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## Root

> body count now 10


Any kops?

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## FindLiberty

...I'm waiting to review the F.L.I.R. drone video before accepting any "official" story.

I hope there was no collateral damage during the exchange! One of the club members
probably initiated force against the other(s).  It could have been an accidental discharge
while installing the gun's safety lock or even the sight of a dog that got those bullets flying...

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## dannno

> At least two of the gangs were trying to do some *recruiting* in the area Sunday


How many federal agents were involved?

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## GunnyFreedom

Goodness.  What is it with Waco, anyway?

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## William Tell

> Goodness.  What is it with Waco, anyway?


Nothing, actually. Its a rather large city by my standards, but it hardly ever makes national news. I go there all the time without incident. Very little noteworthy happens there. Therefor people out of state only think of it for the Branch Davidians. But that didn't even happen in Waco, it was out in the country miles away.

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## oyarde

> How many federal agents were involved?


 Enough I would never be there for sure .

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## Occam's Banana

> Banditos, Cossacks and who else?





> Schimitars judging by the picture


Apparently, there were a lot more gangs than just those three involved ...




> Waco police Sunday afternoon, assisted by Department of Public Safety  troopers, police officers from several cities and deputies from the  McLennan County Sheriff's Office were surrounding the Twin Peaks  Restaurant





> Swanton said police were aware in advance that at least three rival  gangs would be gathering at the restaurant and at least 12 Waco officers  in addition to state troopers were at the restaurant when the fight  began.
> 
> When the shooting began in the restaurant and then continued outside,  armed bikers were shot by officers, [...]

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## 2young2vote

So according to the police it was entirely the store managers fault.  Also, were the bikers killed by other bikers or the police?  I've read several articles and haven't seen that mentioned.  I read one that said the bikers opened fire on the police so the police shot back, but nothing about who was killed by who.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Nothing, actually. Its a rather large city by my standards, but it hardly ever makes national news. I go there all the time without incident. Very little noteworthy happens there. Therefor people out of state only think of it for the Branch Davidians. But that didn't even happen in Waco, it was out in the country miles away.


I was thinking more of the (fertilizer plant?) explosion than the Branch Davidians, to be honest.

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## William Tell

> I was thinking more of the (fertilizer plant?) explosion than the Branch Davidians, to be honest.


Oh, yeah, the fertilizer plant explosion in the city of West, 10 or 15 miles north. Also not Waco. 
That's what Waco gets for being the largest city on the I-35 corridor between the DFW metroplex and Austin. People just think of it all as the Waco area. National media just labels events according to which local media markets they are near.

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## pcosmar

> Swanton said police were aware in advance that at least three rival gangs would be gathering at the restaurant and *at least 12 Waco officers in addition to state troopers were at the restaurant when the fight began*.


I think I see the problem.

Fed instigators,, and local Cop Gang members had a shootout..

Bikers caught in crossfire.

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## CaptUSA

Funniest part of the CNN article:




> "Their action has saved lives in keeping this from spilling into a very busy Sunday morning," the spokesman said. "Thank goodness the officers were here, and took the action that they needed to take to save numerous lives."

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## RonPaulIsGreat

At least the private sector equivalent of the modern day public sector law enforcement apparatus self destructs from time to time. 

I'm very happy they are dead.

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## pcosmar

> At least the private sector equivalent of the modern day public sector law enforcement apparatus self destructs from time to time.


I have never been attacked,, harassed, or arrested by any of the several Bike Clubs I have had contact with.

I have always found them to be good folks.. And have been at events with several "rival" clubs without incident.

I suspect this was provoked by the police themselves.

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## tod evans

> I have never been attacked,, harassed, or arrested by any of the several Bike Clubs I have had contact with.
> 
> I have always found them to be good folks.. And have been at events with several "rival" clubs without incident.
> 
> I suspect this was provoked by the police themselves.


^^^^^^^^^ Much truth! ^^^^^^^

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## kcchiefs6465

> I have never been attacked,, harassed, or arrested by any of the several Bike Clubs I have had contact with.
> 
> I have always found them to be good folks.. And have been at events with several "rival" clubs without incident.
> 
> I suspect this was provoked by the police themselves.


I'd like to reinforce this sentiment.

I cannot recall ever being beaten, kidnapped, threatened with bodily harm, or anything of the sort by any of the many motorcycle clubs.

The one time I have gotten into a disagreement, of sorts, with a few bikers, they showed amazing restraint in not beating my ass. I was just a kid at the time but looking back, I wouldn't really have much to say about it if they had not shown such restraint.

Now the police on the other hand...

And it wouldn't surprise me at all if the police fired the first shot or if they were responsible for the majority of the fatalities.

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## pcosmar

> And it wouldn't surprise me at all if the police fired the first shot or if they were responsible for the majority of the fatalities.


I have been looking for more,, 
something besides the usual copsucking Media reports.

Apparently Cops are looking for any videos too. (to suppress information)

I would like to see what (and who) started it and who exactly did the shooting.

Police are blaming the Restaurant,, for not cooperating. (whatever that means)  and it seems the police were there even before there was any problem.
and were planing on trouble,, even though there presence was not requested nor required.

I suspect they provoked the fight in the first place,, as an excuse to crack down .

It may have been a fight between a couple individuals that did not involve the many others there. and did not involve guns until the police involvement.

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## Carlybee

> I have never been attacked,, harassed, or arrested by any of the several Bike Clubs I have had contact with.
> 
> I have always found them to be good folks.. And have been at events with several "rival" clubs without incident.
> 
> I suspect this was provoked by the police themselves.



Not defending the cops but the Bandidos are generally not an innocent biker club. They are generally a bunch of hard asses who have been in Texas for years and into a lot of bad stuff...not saying they are all bad but they are a true one per center club. You really just don't mess with them.

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## William Tell

> Funniest part of the CNN article:


That may sound funny. But I know exactly what they are talking about. Twin Peaks is on the corner of the busiest shopping mall in Waco. And right next to a really busy Mexican Restaurant.

 Considering how many people were involved or in the vicinity, the outcome could have been far worse.

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## pcosmar

> Not defending the cops but the Bandidos are generally not an innocent biker club. They are generally a bunch of hard asses who have been in Texas for years and into a lot of bad stuff...not saying they are all bad but they are a true one per center club. You really just don't mess with them.


I know none of those folks personally. There are $#@!s everywhere.

There very well might have been a fight between a couple of them. and in my experience that usually involves fists clubs and occasionally knives.
Seldom guns.

I wonder who actually started shooting,, and if any bikers even fired a shot at all.

I do know that many are Vets,, and many Combat Vets..
I suspect if they had fired at police at all we would be hearing about Police fatalities rather than Bikers.

and as yet that is not the case,, but it may be coming (blowback)

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## tod evans

I've known several Bandidos over the years and I'd trust any one of them with my property or even my child.

Can't say the same for the kops or clergy I've known......

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## Carlybee

> I know none of those folks personally. There are $#@!s everywhere.
> 
> There very well might have been a fight between a couple of them. and in my experience that usually involves fists clubs and occasionally knives.
> Seldom guns.
> 
> I wonder who actually started shooting,, and if any bikers even fired a shot at all.



I'm from a pretty rough part of Texas and trust me, the Bandidos will use guns. If you jack with a Bandido, screw one over etc...they will take you out. Generally they will just execute you away from public. Yeah I know that's a bold claim but it happens. They are into the same stuff the HA are into at least here in this state. They are not a bunch of hobbyist bikers. That being said, the cops were already on scene..they were "anticipating" trouble so they may very well have fired the first shots when it spilled over into the parking lot.

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## William Tell

> I have never been attacked,, harassed, or arrested by any of the several Bike Clubs I have had contact with.
> 
> I have always found them to be good folks.. And have been at events with several "rival" clubs without incident.
> 
> I suspect this was provoked by the police themselves.


No, people near there saw something like this coming a while ago. There are some nasty bike groups in the state of Texas. The bar went out of its way to openly welcomed these people. Which is there choice, and that's fine. But it was dumb in hindsight, and not a surprise at all. A knee jerk pro biker reaction doesn't make sense here, anymore than a knee jerk pro cop reaction in most cases.

I will probably know more later today.

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## pcosmar

> I'm from a pretty rough part of Texas and trust me, the Bandidos will use guns. If you jack with a Bandido, screw one over etc...they will take you out. Generally they will just execute you away from public. Yeah I know that's a bold claim but it happens. They are into the same stuff the HA are into. They are not a bunch of hobbyist bikers. That being said, the cops were already on scene..they were "anticipating" trouble so they may very well have fired the first shots when it spilled over into the parking lot.


Don't know those clubs. Nor have I ever joined a club. I have known Hells Angels,,Outlaws and Iron Horsemen,, and a few smaller clubs.

and if you $#@! with them you can expect it to *not be tolerated*. Don't $#@! with them,, treat them fairly and you will receive the same.

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## Carlybee

> Don't know those clubs. Nor have I ever joined a club. I have known Hells Angels,,Outlaws and Iron Horsemen,, and a few smaller clubs.
> 
> and if you $#@! with them you can expect it to *not be tolerated*. Don't $#@! with them,, treat them fairly and you will receive the same.



No..sometimes you don't even have to fck with them. Sometimes you can just be in the same room and look at them wrong.  There are some mean SOBs in the Bandidos. At least from my 30 something years of observances and frankly first hand knowledge in this state.

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## pcosmar

> The bar went out of its way to openly welcomed these people.


Works well for Sturgis and Daytona.

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## William Tell

Carly is right. Someone moved into my neighborhood a few years ago from the Western part of Texas. He was literally afraid for his life, he said a gang was after him. He was all secretive, crazy stuff.

I have never had a personal problem with bikers either, great guys for the most part. But some of these gangs and dudes are not freaking kosher.

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## William Tell

> Works well for Sturgis and Daytona.


I don't think you get the point, crazy crap had already been going on there. Management did not care, people in the area saw something like this coming.

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## presence

> Works well for Sturgis and Daytona.



Myrtle Beach has a whole bike week.... and 2nd black biker week.

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## tod evans

> I don't think you get the point, crazy crap had already been going on there. Management did not care, people in the area saw something like this coming.


Is it youngsters or have you noticed the graybeards too?

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## Valli6

Okay, I'm from a different part of the country, but I'm having a hard time believing this is a real incident and not just part of some idiotic "training exercise" - or an act contrived to sway public opinion about how badly we need the government protecting us. Have they released any names of the dead, or people who've been arrested? Where are the mug shots? Why am I seeing pictures of all these dad-looking bikers sitting in a row, clean and uncuffed? 


Texans, have there been _media-reported_ events of similar violence between these groups before - on an ongoing or occasional basis? Or is this spectacular incident the first  shoot-out of it's kind in recent history?

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## presence

> I'm having a hard time believing this is a real incident and not just part of some idiotic "training exercise" _- or 
> 
> an act contrived to sway public opinion
> _
>  about how badly we need the government protecting us.


^^
??
!!


my gut says the untold tale is that the 9 dead were shot-by-cop

my gut says that the men in blue who looked over the barrel of their gun and drew blood will never speak or be called upon

my gut says there would have been fewer casualties without the cops present; a brawl would have stayed a brawl





> Sgt. Swanton said members of gangs, which he didn’t name, fired at each  other, and then shot at police. Officers returned fire, *possibly  wounding or killing* gang members. The dead and injured are all believed  to be gang members, he said.


http://www.wsj.com/articles/police-s...ngs-1431899839

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## pcosmar

> Okay, I'm from a different part of the country, but I'm having a hard time believing this is a real incident and not just part of some idiotic "training exercise" - or an act contrived to sway public opinion about how badly we need the government protecting us. Have they released any names of the dead, or people who've been arrested? Where are the mug shots? Why am I seeing pictures of all these dad-looking bikers sitting in a row, clean and uncuffed? 
> 
> 
> Texans, have there been _media-reported_ events of similar violence between these groups before - on an ongoing or occasional basis? Or is this spectacular incident the first  shoot-out of it's kind in recent history?


The only prior incident I have heard of was a fight between a couple that involved a knife,, and a stabbing.

That was a couple years ago.

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## specsaregood

/.

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## pcosmar

> ^^
> ??
> !!


I have seen that speculation elsewhere.. Coincides with an Open Carry event?
Not sure,, The only side of the story is the Cops. (as reported by a dutiful media)

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## Carlybee

> Okay, I'm from a different part of the country, but I'm having a hard time believing this is a real incident and not just part of some idiotic "training exercise" - or an act contrived to sway public opinion about how badly we need the government protecting us. Have they released any names of the dead, or people who've been arrested? Where are the mug shots? Why am I seeing pictures of all these dad-looking bikers sitting in a row, clean and uncuffed? 
> 
> 
> Texans, have there been _media-reported_ events of similar violence between these groups before - on an ongoing or occasional basis? Or is this spectacular incident the first  shoot-out of it's kind in recent history?


First I've heard of something like this. I suspect the dead were shot by cops too.  I have heard of things that happen between hardcore bikers out of the public eye but it's generally a one off of someone ending up dead and no one really knows who did it.

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## pcosmar

> First I've heard of something like this. I suspect the dead were shot by cops too.


This is why I have been looking for any video..
and reportedly the Cops are confiscating any.

I wonder if any bikers fired any shots at all.

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## Carlybee

> This is why I have been looking for any video..
> and reportedly the Cops are confiscating any.
> 
> I wonder if any bikers fired any shots at all.


Hard to say..how long had they been there..was alcohol involved...was there bad blood going on before they got there? Lot of variables.

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## pcosmar

Lots I don't know,, about this story and others.

Two things I know.

1. *Cops Lie*. and media reports those lies as if they were true.

2. Media does not report what anyone described as Criminal Scum has to say.

I would like to see video of what exactly transpired.

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## pcosmar

> *Hard to say.*.how long had they been there..was alcohol involved...was there bad blood going on before they got there? Lot of variables.


Yes it is.. But I an not inclined to take the word of *Known* lairs on it.

Could be a lot of things.
Reconciliation and cooperation between former rivals.. and a peaceful gathering. (can't have that)
A minor altercation,, escalated by police actions.

and perhaps it was one guy shooting another in some ongoing feud.

I expect Media will not investigate or report anything but the official line.

and any Cellphone video evidence will be disposed of.

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## tod evans

Scrubbed interwebs are telling........

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## presence

> Media will not investigate or report anything but the official line.
> 
> Cellphone video evidence will be disposed of.


agreed

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## pcosmar

> Scrubbed interwebs are telling........


You noticed that too.

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## presence

Lets say the average biker bike is $10,000 at auction.

192 * $10,000 = $1.92m of police revenue

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## tod evans

> You noticed that too.


That and an uptick in "evil biker" stories......


[edit]

Pics of newly stitched "colors" sewn into virgin leather too...

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## presence

Twin Peaks is kind of a "Hooters" establishment.

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## presence

> *A WHO'S WHO OF THE TEXAN MOTORCYCLE CLUBS: WHICH GANGS WERE INVOLVED IN THE SHOOT-OUT?*
> 
>                                                     The Bandidos Motorcycle Club 
> 
> was  labeled a 'growing criminal threat' by the FBI. The group was named in  an FBI report as one of the country's four most dangerous outlaw gangs  by the FBI - alongside the Pagans, Hells Angels, and Outlaws.
> The  group was formed in 1966 by Vietnam war veteran Donald Chambers in San  Leon, Texas. It has since grown to build factions across the world, as  far as Germany, Norway and Australia. Its Norwegian branch was one half  of the Great Nordic Biker War between 1994 and 1997, warring with Hell's  Angels. At its climax, a missile was fired at a prison holding a  Bandidos member.
> In  the U.S., members have been convicted of smuggling drugs across the  Mexican border - an area they are said to specialize in. According to  the FBI, Bandidos are major players in the marijuana, cocaine and  methamphetamine markets.
> 
> The Cossacks Motorcycle Club
> ...


..

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## pcosmar

> ..former undercover agent Steve Cook told Vox


no doubt a reliable source. 

other sources include SPLC.

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## asurfaholic

I am suspicious of any official story repeatededly parroted by media outlets. Especially when there is a good guys vs bad guys narrative going on. My first thought is someone is being framed or set up to be made into a boogeyman. 

I have never been involved in biker gang activities but know people who are in some of the gangs around here- they are not evil people and they leave other people alone when they are left alone. These people are models of true liberty advocates. They band together as like minded individuals, have their organization rules and do not force others to believe the same things they do.

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## tod evans

> How many federal agents were involved?


The ones "The Newz" talks about or the ones that come out years later in open court?

----------


## Carlybee

> Yes it is.. But I an not inclined to take the word of *Known* lairs on it.
> 
> Could be a lot of things.
> Reconciliation and cooperation between former rivals.. and a peaceful gathering. (can't have that)
> A minor altercation,, escalated by police actions.
> 
> and perhaps it was one guy shooting another in some ongoing feud.
> 
> I expect Media will not investigate or report anything but the official line.
> ...


That may be the case but some of the groups involved are also known to be engaged in hardcore activity too so I'll just wait and see. I'm not speculating one way or the other. That being said I can't imagine being stupid enough to plan a rumble in the middle of a family restaurant. Acts of passion are another matter.

----------


## wizardwatson

> Don't know those clubs. Nor have I ever joined a club. I have known Hells Angels,,Outlaws and Iron Horsemen,, and a few smaller clubs.
> 
> and if you $#@! with them you can expect it to not be tolerated. Don't $#@! with them,, *treat them fairly and you will receive the same.*


FALSE.

My dad was a biker for 15 years.  If you $#@! with them, sure, you're an idiot.  However, if one of them $#@!s with you and you are outnumbered run.  Because a club will protect it's own even if they are in the wrong, no questions asked, period.  They might discipline him later, but they won't show division to outsiders.

My dad wasn't even in a "tough" gang, he was 13%.  But the stories he related to me of the things they'd done and the drugs they dealt, and the murders they covered up is nothing but darkness.

They are nothing but gangs, plain and simple.  Their "honor" and "brotherhood" is a bunch of bull$#@!.

They are misogynistic territorial drug dealers for the most part.  Sure they're "regular dudes" for the most part 99% of the time.  Doing charity runs, and barbecues, and biking across our great country.  But their business model is GANG, plain and simple.

My personal experience.  I remember having arguments with my dad about "club vs. gang" when I was like 12 years old.  I thought his biker buddies were "cool guys" but I never condoned all the illegal activity he tried to relate to me as "respect" and "brotherhood" oriented.  Macho gang bullcrap.

----------


## pcosmar

> FALSE.


And my stepson had to leave Oregon because he got hooked up with Cops running Meth.. They had him cooking for them.

He turned States evidence on them,,and when the case fell apart the States Attorney told him to leave the state..
They are still hunting him.

Yeah,, some bikers are into some stuff. Not all. Do not believe the Hollywood Hype.


This is exactly the same $#@! they did with Militia.. Painting with a broad Brush.

Find one or two and make it ALL of them..
Add in Fed "Informants" and you get folks like the Hutaree locked up for 2 years for nothing.
And set up by the Feds in the Michigan Militia.

----------


## wizardwatson

> And my stepson had to leave Oregon because he got hooked up with Cops running Meth.. They had him cooking for them.
> 
> He turned States evidence on them,,and when the case fell apart the States Attorney told him to leave the state..
> They are still hunting him.
> 
> Yeah,, some bikers are into some stuff. Not all. Do not believe the Hollywood Hype.
> 
> 
> This is exactly the same $#@! they did with Militia.. Painting with a broad Brush.
> ...


Well, I'm only talking about one specific club.  I'm aware there are divisions.  1% and 13% clubs are like I've described.  There are "ABATE" type clubs and riders sure who just like to wear leather jackets, but if they are carrying knives and guns and getting into fights and have "colors", my advice would be to not associate at all with them.

----------


## tod evans

> *but if they are carrying knives and guns and getting into fights and have "colors", my advice would be to not associate at all with them*.

----------


## Dianne

> First I've heard of something like this. I suspect the dead were shot by cops too.  I have heard of things that happen between hardcore bikers out of the public eye but it's generally a one off of someone ending up dead and no one really knows who did it.


The media is not forthcoming with detail, leading me to believe all victims were shot by the police.

----------


## tod evans

> The media is not forthcoming with detail, *leading me to believe all victims were shot by the police.*


This could prove to be a rather large problem for the kops if true........

----------


## wizardwatson

> 


Again with the "one side is good and one side is bad" crap.  Am I saying the bikers are bad but the cops are good?

It's like every discussion we have on RPF someone has to be morally better.

Are the jihadists the good guys or the mohammed cartoonists the good guys?
Are the looters the good guys or are the cops the good guys?
Are the bikers the good guys or are the cops the good guys?

Best to just assume there are no good guys.  You will be right 99% of the time.

----------


## pcosmar

I have been a 1% since my teens. I have never been a member of any club, but have known folks in several.

I have been a member of ABATE in years past.

I have partied in "Biker Bars" to the point of waking up still inside in the morning.. 

and would again.  but I wouldn't go there with folks who will wet themselves over being in a room with large leather clad men.

(and I am not a large man) 

They can be loud,,and rowdy.. and serious. And still be good people..(even if they sell substances deemed illegal)

And yes,,there are $#@!s everywhere in the world.

I am just not inclined to believe the police induced media hype on this story.

----------


## Cissy

http://m.wacotrib.com/news/breaking-...ef08a2a87.html

Officers said there were multiple types of weapons used, including guns, chains, knives, bats and clubs.

"There were maybe 30 guns being fired in the parking lot, maybe 100 rounds, said Michelle Logan, 37, who was at Twin Peaks at the time of the shooting and said she knows some of the victims. They just opened fire.

UPDATE, 4:00 p.m.(CDT): At least nine people are confirmed dead in a shooting around noon Sunday at Twin Peaks restaurant, said Waco police Sgt. W. Patrick Swanton. All of the fatalities are members of biker gangs. No patrons, servers or less enforcement officials were killed, Swanton said.There is a very significant increase in law enforcement in McLennan County right now, Swanton said. Local, county, state and federal agencies are involved in investigations.

DPS and intelligence agents were working on the investigation long before today and Waco police have been aware of the inquest for more than a month, said Swanton.

Twin Peaks and Don Carlos were closed down after the shooting, and witnesses are being questioned on the scene and at the police department, according to the sergeant.The management wanted them here, Swanton said of Twin Peaks officials. Management knew that there were issues, and we were here, but they continued to let those groups of people into their business.There were at least three rival gangs on the scene when the shooting occurred, Swanton said.

At least 12 Waco officers, including a SWAT team, and other DPS troopers were at Twin Peaks or in the immediate area when the incident broke out.Waco police officers moved in and did fire rounds during the incident, Swanton said, praising their quick response.

----------


## Carlybee

> The media is not forthcoming with detail, leading me to believe all victims were shot by the police.


I suspect they did too. They were sitting in the parking lot waiting for something to happen. I'm sure they can't scrub all eyewitness accounts.

----------


## pcosmar

> This could prove to be a rather large problem for the kops if true........


They are arresting anyone on two wheels presently..
Folks totally uninvolved are targeted.

----------


## Carlybee

> I have been a 1% since my teens. I have never been a member of any club, but have known folks in several.
> 
> I have been a member of ABATE in years past.
> 
> I have partied in "Biker Bars" to the point of waking up still inside in the morning.. 
> 
> and would again.  but I wouldn't go there with folks who will wet themselves over being in a room with large leather clad men.
> 
> (and I am not a large man) 
> ...



True..and depending on who it is they can unload a 9mm in your face. Some of them murder people..it's not just drugs. Could be drug related or any number of issues. The majority of bikers are good people. The majority of some 1% clubs are not necessarily good people.

----------


## tod evans

> They are arresting anyone on two wheels presently..
> Folks totally uninvolved are targeted.


That'll never backfire....

----------


## pcosmar

> That'll never backfire....


http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/W...304043711.html



> Police have arrested and jailed more than 165 members of rival motorcycle gangs and were on the watch for any more violence Monday morning after nine people died in a Sunday afternoon shooting at at the Twin Peaks restaurant in Waco.
> 
> All arrested suspects have been charged with engaging in organized criminal activity, but some could face more charges as the investigation continues.






> At least two bikers were arrested in the early morning hours on Monday as they rode into town, but their identities and charges were not made public.


Seems they are inviting a lot of lawsuits.

----------


## Valli6

I cant get past how clean and relaxed everyone looks! Everyones hair is neatly trimmed. Everyones clothing looks brand new - no rips, holes, not even any fraying at the hems. I have spotted only one guy with some stains on his jeans. Otherwise, theres no blood, bruises or dirt on any one.

And most of them are wearing the exact same shade of sort-of-mottled, mid-blue jeans.





Even this cop. (guy on the left, perhaps both)


Usually they release some names and mug shots of the alleged dead by now.
Im not even convinced that anybodys dead.
Too fake!

----------


## JK/SEA

ok, but were any cops hurt?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I have never been attacked,, harassed, or arrested by any of the several Bike Clubs I have had contact with.
> 
> I have always found them to be good folks.. And have been at events with several "rival" clubs without incident.
> 
> I suspect this was provoked by the police themselves.


I concur as well.

I have ridden and associated with clubs in the past, and it was almost always the case that when there was friction and shootouts, it could be traced back to cop provocateurs/informants.

----------


## 69360

I'd trust a 1% OMC member more than the cops.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> ok, but were any cops hurt?





> No patrons, servers or less (sic) enforcement officials were killed, Swanton said


The heroes are OK.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> ...
> In 2013, Bandidos head Jack Lewis was charged with stabbing two Cossacks outside a restaurant in Abilene, near Callahan County.
> The Cossacks are challenging the Bandidos' dominance in Texas by looking to form alliances with other gangs, such as the Hell's Angels, former undercover agent Steve Cook told Vox.
> ...


Some reports claim that the Cossacks have started wearing Texas patches, which is a direct challenge to the Bandido's claim on Texas.

Which highlights the mentality. Everything is about territory and constant passive-aggressive challenges of others. For example, riding slow in the fast lane on a freeway, or standing and blocking places where people need to pass, such as sidewalks and stairs. But what do I know, it's been two weeks since I've been in a room with MC members wearing their colors, and many, many years since I had (non 1%) MC members as roommates.

----------


## pcosmar

Out of perverse curiosity,, I googled "Waco Open Carry"



> http://www.wacotrib.com/news/ap_texa...77a20ee3e.html
> 
> AUSTIN, Texas (AP) — Legalizing open carry of handguns in Texas is beginning the final approach to Republican Gov. Greg Abbott's desk.
> 
> The last two weeks of the legislative session begin Monday. It started in January with expanded gun rights ranking among the biggest priorities for Republicans, who swiftly passed bills that would allow licensed Texas gun owners to carry their handguns.
> 
> Texas is only of only six states that don't allow some form of open carry.
> 
> A Senate committee Monday could put final touches on an open-carry measure that Abbott has already said he'll sign into law.
> ...



I can see both sides attempting to exploit this without knowing what really happened at all.

----------


## pcosmar

https://www.facebook.com/BikerNewsNetwork?fref=nf
From FB comments.



> Got a message from a friend in waco..he says that this was instigated by undercover LEO..and that the cops were already on scene at the mall before the fight broke out..hmmmm?





> Sounded like the cops were trying to force the place to stop having bike nights.





> If you actually read the story it sounds like the cops, not the bikers, were very likely the ones who did the killing... bad day either way.

----------


## mad cow

It will be interesting to see the forensic tests on all of the bullets recovered from those who were shot and whose guns they came from.
I don't think there is any possible way to avoid these tests with at least 10 deaths and more wounded.

----------


## Schifference

Seems very strange that with as populated an area as this is purported to be that there are no video's uploaded.

----------


## pcosmar

> It will be interesting to see the forensic tests on all of the bullets recovered from those who were shot and whose guns they came from.
> I don't think there is any possible way to avoid these tests with at least 10 deaths and more wounded.


They have avoided (obfuscated) it with other mass shootings..

----------


## pcosmar

> Seems very strange that with as populated an area as this is purported to be that there are no video's uploaded.


No it isn't.. They have confiscated Cell Phones and arrested everyone present.

Just being a member of a bike club is now a criminal offense.

Hell just riding a bike is grounds for arrest.
http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/W...304043711.html

And the Restaurant has had their Franchise revoked for serving paying customers. 

They need to change the name of the town to Wacko Tx.

----------


## Schifference

I think if "rival gangs" were in a major fight as depicted, a dozen cops would not stop 200 bikers. Furthermore I find their compliance with the arrest process to orderly.

----------


## presence

> Some reports claim that the Cossacks have started wearing Texas patches, which is a direct challenge to the Bandido's claim on Texas.
> 
> Which highlights the mentality. Everything is about territory and constant passive-aggressive challenges of others. For example, riding slow in the fast lane on a freeway, or standing and blocking places where people need to pass, such as sidewalks and stairs. But what do I know, it's been two weeks since I've been in a room with MC members wearing their colors, and many, many years since I had (non 1%) MC members as roommates.



I'm confused.  Is MC = militarized cops?

----------


## presence

> *Some of the dead and wounded may have been shot by officers* 
> 
> 
> responding to the bedlam at the Twin Peaks restaurant franchise, Waco  police spokesman Sgt. W. Patrick Swanton said.
> 
> 
> "They started  shooting at our officers and our officers returned fire," Swanton said.  Most of the dead and wounded suffered from gunshot and stab wounds, he  added.






> Swanton said that gang members had been threatening police overnight and  that police have "credible intelligence" to believe that other bikers  were coming to Waco to take revenge on police or rival gangs. He said  the gangs had given a
> 
> _
>  "green light"_ 
> _to target uniformed officers._





> law enforcement at all levels  had been_ generally aware_ that _tensions  were rising_ in the ranks of the Bandidos and Cossacks groups


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...ment/27530257/




5:1 odds the cops did all the killing with guns and the gangs did all the maiming with knives.

3:1 odds the cops had people undercover in the two main clubs present and they were chief instigators.

----------


## tod evans

> 5:1 odds the cops did all the killing with guns and the gangs did all the maiming with knives.
> 
> 3:1 odds the cops had people undercover in the two main clubs present and they were chief instigators.


10,000:1 odds that the kops will exhibit the same behavior they expect others to, that being naming the shooter(s)...

----------


## Carlybee

http://abc13.com/729302/#gallery-26

Mugshots. Charged with engaging in criminal activity. One million bond each.

----------


## asurfaholic

Insane ^

----------


## Anti Federalist

The real gangsters wear suits and ties.

----------


## William Tell

> Police are blaming the Restaurant,, for not cooperating. (whatever that means)  and it seems the police were there even before there was any problem.
> and were planing on trouble,, even though there presence was not requested nor required.


No, that's not how it happened. The bar used to have private security, then a while back they got cheap and said hell, the cops will take care of us for free. They wanted their cake and to eat it too. They did want cops there, they counted on them, they didn't want to pay for security they knew they needed, nor did they listen to warnings from anyone. 

Pure stupidity.

----------


## Smitty

I've been riding bikes for 40 years I've got a couple now. It's important to make a distinction between those people who just like to dress up in the "costume" and the real outlaw type bikers.

I've never associated with any of the "club" members, but I've found myself at events where they were congregated. The flat track races which used to be held at the Louisville Fairgrounds was a big biker event. The vast majority of the people there were just garden variety motorcycle enthusiasts. But there was always a sizable collection of Hell's Angels there.

When a big crew of outlaw bikers get in a crowd they like to show their asses. The drunker they get, the worse they are.

It finally got so bad that Louisville took itself off of the flat track circuit.

This is the event that pretty much shut it down.

http://www.dairylandclassic.com/memorial.html#1980


_David Jones in Louisville, Kentucky on May 31, 1980

Rookie Expert Jones, 18, of Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, perished after colliding with a spectator in turn four during a heat race of an AMA Grand National Championship event on the half mile oval at Louisville Downs._

The "spectator" was a member of the Hell's Angels who was blind drunk and was leaned out over the rail as the racers rounded turn 4 of the final lap.

Essentially, the riders chose not to participate there any longer.

I've got absolutely no use for the outlaw motorcycle types.

They're just useless halfwit $#@!s who chose to use motorcycles as their focus. The only difference between them and other useless halfwit $#@!s is that they've somehow acquired a motorcycle.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> I'm confused.  Is MC = militarized cops?


It's all in the clothes, chico.



Whoops, wrong MC.

This one is better:




> I cant get past how clean and relaxed everyone looks! Everyones hair is neatly trimmed. Everyones clothing looks brand new - no rips, holes, not even any fraying at the hems. I have spotted only one guy with some stains on his jeans. Otherwise, theres no blood, bruises or dirt on any one.
> 
> And most of them are wearing the exact same shade of sort-of-mottled, mid-blue jeans.
> 
> Attachment 4144

----------


## HankRicther12

> Oh, yeah, the fertilizer plant explosion in the city of West, 10 or 15 miles north. Also not Waco. 
> That's what Waco gets for being the largest city on the I-35 corridor between the DFW metroplex and Austin. People just think of it all as the Waco area. National media just labels events according to which local media markets they are near.


That's kinda like how it is with me living in Michigan, everyone just thinks "Detroit" when they hear MI, yet outside of the cities, (which I admit are crap in many cases) you mostly have farms, wooded areas, "traditional" America, but those cities brand us all.




> I have never been attacked,, harassed, or  arrested by any of the several Bike Clubs I have had contact with.
> 
> I have always found them to be good folks.. And have been at events with several "rival" clubs without incident.
> 
> I suspect this was provoked by the police themselves.


Lol. This stuff cracks me up. I first saw this story when I checked my  AOL, and in the comments you had lefties trying to blame all this on  guns and the NRA, then righties trying to blame it on Obama and there  not being enough guns, now I come here and I see the usual cop  conspiracy, I mean, it really is amazing the realities all of you create  in your minds.

----------


## pcosmar

> Lol. This stuff cracks me up. I first saw this story when I checked my AOL,


You actually admit to checking AOL.

It really explains a lot.

----------


## dannno

> This is the event that pretty much shut it down.
> 
> http://www.dairylandclassic.com/memorial.html#1980


Can't forget this one

----------


## HankRicther12

> You actually admit to checking AOL.
> 
> It really explains a lot.


Yeah, it's my E-mail provider, has been for years, what's your point, I mean seriously, that was a pretty weak comeback there.

----------


## tod evans

I'd like to take a minute to wish all the scooter tramps and their families well...

May all those traveling be safe and may those seeking vengeance remember the wise old Sicilian proverb....

----------


## pcosmar

> Yeah, it's my E-mail provider, has been for years, what's your point, I mean seriously, that was a pretty weak comeback there.


None other than the lamest ISP in known history..

I used it too when I first got a computer.. for about a month..
Had to wipe the system to get rid of it.

Lawyers are going to make out big on this.. there must be busloads rolling in about now.

And what are 150 lawsuits going to cost the taxpayers for this stupidity..

Seriously,, charging everyone who belongs to a club. Arresting people who ride through.. simply because they are on bikes.

And the truth of what went down has not even half come out yet..

Even if this went down  anyhow close to what has been described,, then there are less than a dozen that even commited any crime.
And the crime committed BY THE Police,, (intimidation of a business owner) is still glaring.

The police have no right to demand anything of the restaurant,, who they serve or what legal events can take place.
The restaurant is under no obligation to turn down good paying customers.

----------


## The Northbreather

Street Gangs = collectivist mentality

Biker Gangs = collectivist mentality

Unions = collectivist mentality 

Police = collectivist mentality

Standing Army = collectivist mentality 



Which group should I root for?

----------


## Smitty

I don't root for any of them.

The way I see it is,...if the police want to be all violent, they can get all violent with the motorcycle thugs.

It's a marriage made in heaven.

If either of them is looking for a group to squabble with, there's one custom made for the other.

In fact,..that's the only benefit I see from the biker thugs. They give the cops somebody to $#@! with that isn't me.

Unfortunately, I've got a couple of bikes. One of them happens to be a Dyna Super Glide. So the possibility exists that I might have to convince some halfwit thug cop that I'm not a halfwit thug biker.

My implement of association,...for those who can't tell the difference between me and some outlaw $#@!bird.

----------


## Origanalist

> Street Gangs = collectivist mentality
> 
> Biker Gangs = collectivist mentality
> 
> Unions = collectivist mentality 
> 
> Police = collectivist mentality
> 
> Standing Army = collectivist mentality 
> ...


Well, if I had to chose from that group it would be the biker gangs.

----------


## Carlybee

Interesting that all these guys are not handcuffed, using their cells and the cop has his weapon pointed at the ground.

----------


## pcosmar

I remember when a few New York transplants tried to kill the Poker Run and Bike show in Key West..
Some didn't want "those kind of people" coming to the Keys.

It cost the City and Businesses million$ in lost revenue.

I still have a T-Shirt (and memories)

----------


## Smitty

Lemme tell ya somethin' else while I'm at it.

I also ain't got no use fer them boomers who ain't been on 2 wheels since they graduated from a Schwinn Sting Ray.

Alla sudden they're 65 years old and use their 401K to go out and buy a 1100 lb Gold Wing.

Yeah,...they're scootin' up and down the road,...givin' the thumbs up and the "V" sign,...they they get into a muddy patch, the ass end kicks out on em and there they are,...ass all up in the air and they face stuck into a fresh cow plop.

Talkin' 'bout, "Hep me,...hep me!"

Some guys walk up,...lift 'em to their feet,....wipe the cow $#@! outta their face,..get 'em on their bike,..point a finger and say, "The nursin' home is thataway".

Now,...I ain't one 'them either,...but they give me as much trouble as the geriatric "outlaws",...yanno?

----------


## Origanalist

> Lemme tell ya somethin' else while I'm at it.
> 
> I also ain't got no use fer them boomers who ain't been on 2 wheels since they graduated from a Schwinn Sting Ray.
> 
> Alla sudden they're 65 years old and use their 401K to go out and buy a 1100 lb Gold Wing.
> 
> Yeah,...they're scootin' up and down the road,...givin' the thumbs up and the "V" sign,...they they get into a muddy patch, the ass end kicks out on em and there they are,...ass all up in the air and they face stuck into a fresh cow plop.
> 
> Talkin' 'bout, "Hep me,...hep me!"
> ...


Cool story bro.

----------


## Smitty

Well,...it ain't so much a story as it is a situation.

Whatever one decides to do in life, it's got to be a commitment.

You cain't go to work in a bank in 1972 then decide to tour the world on a motorcycle in 2015.

It's got to take place over time.

----------


## Smitty

There's too much cow $#@! in the world.

----------


## Origanalist

> Well,...it ain't so much a story as it is a situation.
> 
> Whatever one decides to do in life, it's got to be a commitment.
> 
> You cain't go to work in a bank in 1972 then decide to tour the world on a motorcycle in 2015.
> 
> It's got to take place over time.


Why caint you? I started riding after fifty (I'm not a banker) dropped my gold wing a couple times, and picked it up and went on my way.

----------


## Smitty

[QUOTE=Origanalist;5873291]Why caint you? I started riding after fifty (I'm not a banker)* dropped my gold wing a couple times*[QUOTE]

That's why.

----------


## Carlybee

> Well,...it ain't so much a story as it is a situation.
> 
> Whatever one decides to do in life, it's got to be a commitment.
> 
> You cain't go to work in a bank in 1972 then decide to tour the world on a motorcycle in 2015.
> 
> It's got to take place over time.


People do it all the time

----------


## Origanalist

[QUOTE=Smitty;5873304][QUOTE=Origanalist;5873291]Why caint you? I started riding after fifty (I'm not a banker)* dropped my gold wing a couple times*


> That's why.


Lol, that's why. Really? It's my $#@!ing bike, and I picked the damn thing up. What's your point Smitty?

----------


## Smitty

Hey, man,...it don't mean nuthin' ta me.

If multiple faces fulla cow $#@! don't dissuade you from touring the world on two wheels,...what business is it of mine?

----------


## Origanalist

> Hey, man,...it don't mean nuthin' ta me.
> 
> If multiple faces fulla cow $#@! don't dissuade you from touring the world on two wheels,...what business is it of mine?


Absolutely none, I'm glad you agree.

I have actually been in cow$#@! to the point only my mouth and nose were out of it, but that's another subject altogether.

----------


## Smitty

Personally,...somewhere around the 4th face fulla cow $#@!, I'd say "fuggit" and buy a Camry.

,...but everybody is different.

----------


## Origanalist

> Personally,...somewhere around the 4th face fulla cow $#@!, I'd say "fuggit" and buy a Camry.
> 
> ,...but everybody is different.


Well, I've never gotten a face full of cow$#@! on the bike, so there's that. But if you're suggesting that once somebody has dumped their bike more than 4 times they should just give up and buy a $#@!ing camry you're a pussy. I personally know guys who have lost limbs and still ride.

----------


## Smitty

lolol,...fun evening on here,...

----------


## HankRicther12

> None other than the lamest ISP in known history..
> 
> I used it too when I first got a computer.. for about a month..
> Had to wipe the system to get rid of it.
> 
> Lawyers are going to make out big on this.. there must be busloads rolling in about now.
> 
> And what are 150 lawsuits going to cost the taxpayers for this stupidity..
> 
> ...


Well, as usual, I will reserve judgement till I hear the whole story, but it's just funny to me how some of you here seem to live in this pretend world where pretty much there's no such thing as actual criminals who kill people, rape people, beat and intimidate people, oh no, it's all just a bunch of cop conspiracies.

----------


## Origanalist

> lolol,...fun evening on here,...


Ain't it though? I grew up with bikers who got drunk and dumped their bikes every other week. (just don't bring it up..)
I just never started riding till later in life.

----------


## Origanalist

///

----------


## pcosmar

> Well, as usual, I will reserve judgement till I hear the whole story, but it's just funny to me how some of you here seem to live in this pretend world where pretty much there's no such thing as actual criminals who kill people, rape people, beat and intimidate people, oh no, it's all just a bunch of cop conspiracies.


As far as I can tell,, the only people that were killed were killed by cops.

But the Feds can't have rival clubs coming together in a neutral and public place and reaching any agreements can they?

And I am still looking for the whole story..
All i have now is observation and the Cop Media spokesperson. and Cops Lie.. as a rule.

----------


## Origanalist

> Well, as usual, I will reserve judgement till I hear the whole story, but it's just funny to me how some of you here seem to live in this pretend world where pretty much there's no such thing as actual criminals who kill people, rape people, beat and intimidate people, oh no, it's all just a bunch of cop conspiracies.


You know, it's a funny thing but I never have been pulled over by a biker for some bull$#@!, made up crap or written a ticket for some unconstitutional bull$#@! by a biker.

We used to have a saying (before the interwebs) "don't start no $#@!, won't be no $#@!".

----------


## navy-vet

> Absolutely none, I'm glad you agree.
> 
> I have actually been in cow$#@! to the point only my mouth and nose were out of it, but that's another subject altogether.


When I lived in Georgia we hunted for those piles of cow sht and plucked rooms out of them! Believe it or not they were good too.

----------


## pcosmar

> When I lived in Georgia we hunted for those piles of cow sht and plucked rooms out of them! Believe it or not they were good too.


I've been through Georgia. and did that too.

----------


## Origanalist

> When I lived in Georgia we hunted for those piles of cow sht and plucked rooms out of them! Believe it or not they were good too.


 There is that too. Believe it or not we have those things up here too.

----------


## JustinTime

I heard that everyone present has been arrested and charged with organized crime, that's scary. What if you weren't doing anything wrong, breaking no law, just hanging out, then some knuckleheads you don't even know start shooting (were the bikers shooting, or the cops?) and now you face prison time for doing nothing? 

Good grief.

----------


## HankRicther12

> You know, it's a funny thing but I never have been pulled over by a biker for some bull$#@!, made up crap or written a ticket for some unconstitutional bull$#@! by a biker.
> 
> We used to have a saying (before the interwebs) "don't start no $#@!, won't be no $#@!".


Oh yes, I've heard these stories a hundred times, you were hassled for no reason I'm sure......, now, let me be clear, I always reserve judgement, perhaps you are in the right, things like that do happen, however I find the vast majority of the time people are not just arrested for nothing. At any rate, that is hardly much of a refute of what I said, I mean, come on, is that the best you can do?

----------


## pcosmar

> I heard that everyone present has been arrested and charged with organized crime, that's scary. What if you weren't doing anything wrong, breaking no law, just hanging out, then some knuckleheads you don't even know start shooting (were the bikers shooting, or the cops?) and now you face prison time for doing nothing? 
> 
> Good grief.


And the lawyers laugh all the way to the bank.. Not to mention Law Suits and settlements charged to the Taxpayers.

and the two guys that were arrested for just riding into town the next day.. What the $#@! is that?

Ride a motorcycle and you are a criminal,, join a club and you are a criminal..

The police are totally out of control.

----------


## devil21

> As far as I can tell,, the only people that were killed were killed by cops.
> 
> But the Feds can't have rival clubs coming together in a neutral and public place and reaching any agreements can they?
> 
> And I am still looking for the whole story..
> All i have now is observation and the Cop Media spokesperson. and Cops Lie.. as a rule.


This story stinks just like the rest of the msm divide-and-conquer parade of nonsense.  Can't have biker gangs in _Texas_ start making alliances now, what with such important things like Jade Helm underway.  Gee, Texas sure is in the news a lot lately for violence...

----------


## tod evans

> Oh yes, I've heard these stories a hundred times, you were hassled for no reason I'm sure......, now, let me be clear, I always reserve judgement, perhaps you are in the right, things like that do happen, however I find the vast majority of the time people are not just arrested for nothing. At any rate, that is hardly much of a refute of what I said, I mean, come on, is that the best you can do?


Is this some roundabout way of making excuses for kops executing citizens and imprisoning their brethren with one million dollar bonds?

Come out and say what you mean Ace...

----------


## pcosmar

> This story stinks just like the rest of the msm divide-and-conquer parade of nonsense.  Can't have biker gangs in _Texas_ start making alliances now, what with such important things like Jade Helm underway.  Gee, Texas sure is in the news a lot lately for violence...


As usual for Govt,,, counterproductive.

I can see a lot of folks overlooking petty differences in the face of a common enemy.

----------


## Origanalist

> Oh yes, I've heard these stories a hundred times, you were hassled for no reason I'm sure......, now, let me be clear, I always reserve judgement, perhaps you are in the right, things like that do happen, however I find the vast majority of the time people are not just arrested for nothing. At any rate, that is hardly much of a refute of what I said, I mean, come on, is that the best you can do?


You have heard it, but apparently it hasn't sunk in to your thick skull. 

A biker has never;

*gave me a ticket for not wearing my seatbelt
*gave me a ticket for not providing proof of insurance
*gave me a ticket for "physical control" when I was in a house
*gave me a ticket for DUI after leaving a restaurant after dinner having consumed three drinks during
*Has never told me if I spank my son I will go to jail

Hell, I could cover a page with this $#@!. But it wouldn't sway you would it Hank?

----------


## devil21

> As usual for Govt,,, counterproductive.
> 
> I can see a lot of folks overlooking petty differences in the face of a common enemy.


And there's never been instances of government agents infiltrating biker gangs for subversive purposes!  Doesn't happen.  

Oh wait, doesn't the HELM in Jade Helm refer to placing covert agents inside organizations for intelligence gathering (and then _elimination_) purposes?  Hmmm....methinks JH15 has been underway for a long time and we're starting to see the end game of it.  Working to break up potential resistances using provocateurs and fake media reports?  Maybe even some targeted assassinations under false pretenses?

----------


## pcosmar

> And there's never been instances of government agents infiltrating biker gangs for subversive purposes!  Doesn't happen.  
> 
> Oh wait, doesn't the HELM in Jade Helm refer to placing covert agents inside organizations for intelligence gathering (and then _elimination_) purposes?  Hmmm....methinks JH15 has been underway for a long time and we're starting to see the end game of it.  Working to break up potential resistances using provocateurs and fake media reports?


They have been doing that with the Militia for years..
That is why there is no organization between groups. Everyone knows there are feds and no one trusts antone.

That was proven clearly and openly with the arrest of the Hutaree.. And folks in the Michigan Militia openly talking about aiding and cooperating with the Feds to set them up.

For folks that have forgotten,,, The Hutaree were innocent and were released after spending two years in jail.
The only criminal was the Fed Bomb Maker,, (who was not charged)

----------


## Root

> As far as I can tell,, the only people that were killed were killed by cops.


#blueLivesMatter
#oursDont

----------


## Carlybee

On May first, DPS posted a bulletin highlighting the escalating conflict between the Bandidos and Cossacks gangs.

The bulletin goes on to spell out how the tension between the two groups has been rising.

• On March 22, 2015, as many as ten suspected Cossack MC members forced a Bandidos OMG member to pull over on IH-35 near Lorena, TX. The group assaulted the Bandidos member with chains, batons, and metal pipes before stealing his motorcycle.

• On March 22, 2015, a group of Bandidos OMG members confronted a Cossacks MC member fueling his motorcycle at a truck stop on IH-20 in Palo Pinto County. After the Cossacks member refused to remove the Texas patch from his vest, the Bandidos member assaulted the victim by striking his head with a hammer and stealing his vest.

• On April 7, 2015, the FBI El Paso Division received information from a law enforcement source that approximately 100 Bandidos OMG members planned to travel to Odessa on April 11 in order to start a “war” with area Cossacks MC.

• On April 9, 2015, the FBI San Antonio Division received information that Bandidos OMG discussed the possibility of going to war with the Cossacks MC, and instructed members to be on the lookout for members or associates of the Cossacks MC during the April 11 weekend biker rallies held in Amarillo, Hondo, Midland, and Odessa, TX.

• On April 24, 2015, the FBI Dallas Division released a report regarding three recent altercations between Bandidos OMG and Cossacks MC in East Texas, specifically in Longview, Kilgore and Quitman, TX.

----------


## The Northbreather

> There is that too. Believe it or not we have those things up here too.


Nope those are cyanescens

----------


## navy-vet

> Nope those are cyanecsens


cyanescens

----------


## The Northbreather

> cyanescens


Ok fixed it

----------


## navy-vet

> Ok fixed it


lol

----------


## HankRicther12

> Is this some roundabout way of making excuses for kops executing citizens and imprisoning their brethren with one million dollar bonds?
> 
> Come out and say what you mean Ace...


Yes, that's exactly what I was saying, your brilliant critique has broken me.

----------


## HankRicther12

> You have heard it, but apparently it hasn't sunk in to your thick skull. 
> 
> A biker has never;
> 
> *gave me a ticket for not wearing my seatbelt
> *gave me a ticket for not providing proof of insurance
> *gave me a ticket for "physical control" when I was in a house
> *gave me a ticket for DUI after leaving a restaurant after dinner having consumed three drinks during
> *Has never told me if I spank my son I will go to jail
> ...


As to "swaying" me there is no way to sway me over the internet as I only have your version of events, I'm not saying you are lying or telling the truth, only that I am suspicious of "bad cop" stories based on my experiences, but: 3 drinks huh, I'd like to see the police report on that one. Not saying I agree with seat belt laws, well, actually that's a bit of a gray area, but even still, how hard is to put on a seat belt? The others, as I say hard to comment with only your accusations.

However, as I said in my last post, that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, just because a biker has never done "this or that" to you does not mean we live in a society where all bikers are peaceful, or all inner city "youth" are peaceful, or all people in general are peaceful, that was my comment which you purposely avoided in order to list off your - real or imagined - tales of persecution, which have nothing to do with anything.

----------


## devil21

Ok Mr. Biker Man, you come over here and put these cuffs on, ok?

----------


## Origanalist

> Nope those are cyanescens


We have three different types that I'm aware of here. (could be more, I don't know) Some are in the woods, some are in cow pastures and on lawns. I don't know their names though.

Ones I know of;

----------


## Origanalist

> As to "swaying" me there is no way to sway me over the internet as I only have your version of events, I'm not saying you are lying or telling the truth, only that I am suspicious of "bad cop" stories based on my experiences, but: 3 drinks huh, I'd like to see the police report on that one. Not saying I agree with seat belt laws, well, actually that's a bit of a gray area, but even still, how hard is to put on a seat belt? The others, as I say hard to comment with only your accusations.
> 
> However, as I said in my last post, that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, just because a biker has never done "this or that" to you does not mean we live in a society where all bikers are peaceful, or all inner city "youth" are peaceful, or all people in general are peaceful, that was my comment which you purposely avoided in order to list off your - real or imagined - tales of persecution, which have nothing to do with anything.


When is the last time you got pulled over by a biker Hank? Do you suddenly put your cell phone down when you see a biker while driving so you won't get a ticket? If you have a tail light out will a biker write you up for it to collect revenue or just say 'hey buddy, you have a tail light out'?

Nothing to do with anything? Lol, don't forget to put your seat belt on Hank, it's for your own safety after all. Daddy is looking out for YOU Hank, doesn't that make you  feel special? Remember, 'click it or ticket'.

----------


## Origanalist

> Yes, that's exactly what I was saying, your brilliant critique has broken me.


At least you're honest.

----------


## tod evans

> Yes, that's exactly what I was saying, your brilliant critique has broken me.


See that little squiggly punctuation mark with a dot under it at the end of the first sentence?

That's a question mark not a critique mark, care to answer the question?

Plain English works best for stupid folks on the internet, like me....

----------


## pcosmar

> As to "swaying" me there is no way to sway me over the internet as I only have your version of events, I'm not saying you are lying or telling the truth, only that I am suspicious of "bad cop" stories based on my experiences, but: 3 drinks huh, *I'd like to see the police report on that one.*


Why? Police Lie.. Why would the report of known liars matter?

I got a DUI in the Keys. I allegedly blew a .187. ( a scientifically impossible number)

Yes I had some beers. 5 beers (10 oz plastic cups)  over about six hours time. Less than one 12oz beer an hour.

The Cop was fired  a month later... for falsifying reports.. He had a habit of it.

likely still a Cop in another location. (as is common)

----------


## pcosmar

> Ok Mr. Biker Man, you come over here and put these cuffs on, ok?


I suspect,,,
That most of those guys assumed they had nothing to worry about,, being uninvolved in whatever transpired..

and are cooperating. I suspect also that many were carrying legally,, with valid permits.
There is no doubt in my mind that some of them are cops..

It is clearly apparent that the police knew in advance of the meeting,, and the purpose of the meeting.. and were opposed to the end of friction between groups.

If I were to speculate,, I might suspect the fight started when someone outed a snitch. Identified some undercover Cop in their group,,,

Most guys there are just club members,, expecting to go back to their jobs on Monday,, after a weekend run.

----------


## paleocon1

> ........................
> I suspect this was provoked by the police themselves.


What sort of police 'provocation'  causes people to stab eachother?

----------


## tod evans

> What sort of police 'provocation'  causes people to stab eachother?


Snitches.

----------


## pcosmar

> What sort of police 'provocation'  causes people to stab eachother?


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/provocateur

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur

And I have no idea what actually transpired.. 
The only reports as yet are the Police,, and that is not a credible source. *Police Lie*

The media is reporting the Police Lie..

Now in digging through the lies,, certain things come to light.

Police had detailed information. So these Clubs were infiltrated by (if not influenced by) the police.
The purpose of the event (in a neutral and public place) was to resolve past differences. Resolving disputes.

Police attempted to prevent this,, to the point of bullying and intimidating a business owner.

As to who started it,,or why.. that is unknown and only speculated.

No cops were shot.. no bystanders were shot.. as yet there is no proof that any bikers fired a shot at all.

A militarized Police unit shot a bunch of Bikers. And well over 100 people who were uninvolved in the shooting are arrested including two who were not even present at the incident..

----------


## specsaregood

./

----------


## Carlybee

Not going to post the link but bikernewsdotnet if you want to read the bikers side. I'm not setting up an account there in order to read it though...monitored by the Feds.  There's an overview on the first page.

----------


## Schifference

Texas - A shoving match in a bathroom at a Confederation of Clubs meeting in Waco, Texas exploded into a war yesterday. Nine people were killed, 27 people were injured, 17 were hospitalized, two are listed in critical condition, and 160 men were arrested following a brawl at a chain restaurant in a shopping center on the South Jack Kultgen Espressway.
The fight resulted from a long simmering dispute between members of the Bandidos Motorcycle Club and the Cossacks and the Scimitars Motorcycle Clubs. Curtis Jack Lewis, president of the Abilene chapter of the Bandidos, and Wesley Dale Mason, the chapters' sergeant at arms, were accused of stabbing two Cossacks outside Logan's Roadhouse in Abilene in November 2013. The two Bandidos were charged with aggravated assault in March 2014. The Scimitars are in the process of patching over to the Cossacks.

Other clubs in attendance at the Sunday brunch included the Blackett Arms MC, Gypsy MC, HonorBound Motorcycle Ministry, Renatus MC, Escondidos MC, Sons of the South MC, Los Pirados MC, Leathernecks MC, Vietnam Vets/Legacy Vets MC, In Country MC and the Tornado Motorcycle Club.

All of the arrestees are being charged under Title 11, Section 71.02, a draconian Texas law titled "Engaging in Organized Criminal Activity." According to that law, "A person commits an offense if, with the intent to establish, maintain, or participate in a combination or in the profits of a combination or as a member of a criminal street gang, the person commits or conspires to commit one or more of" most of the acts that are illegal in Texas: Including possession of small amounts of marijuana, transporting a firearm, and possession of banned weapons like brass knuckles and butterfly knives. Police seized about a hundred weapons at the crime scene

Sergeant Patrick Swanton, a spokesman for the Waco Police Department, called the attendees. "A bunch of criminal element biker members that came to Waco and tried to instill violence into our community and unfortunately did just that…. This is not a bunch of doctors and dentists and lawyers riding Harleys. These are criminals on Harley-Davidsons."

The Restaurant Did It

The Texas Region One COC and Independents meeting was scheduled to begin at one p.m. The fight began about 12:15. Local police had urged the restaurant, a Hooters knock-off called Twin Peaks, to refuse service to bikers. Waco police claim the violence could have prevented if Jay Patel, the operating partner at the independently owned Waco franchise, had simply banned the Confederation of Clubs from meeting there. In a statement Sunday, Patel said "our management team had had ongoing and positive communications with the police."

Sergeant Swanton said, "What occurred here today is the worst-case scenario when a business owner puts profit over human lives. It's sad. This could have all been avoided."

The restaurant has been sponsoring a bike night on Thursdays. Local police have been trying to convince the management to stop that, too. It is legal in Texas, as it is in most states, to ban the display of motorcycle club patches in public establishments. "They were aware that there were issues here," Swanton said. "It was local management here. We told them of the issues, we tried to get assistance in reference to dealing with these crowds but they would not cooperate."

Today, Front Burner Restaurants, which owns the Twin Peaks chain, announced it was cancelling the Waco restaurant's franchise agreement.

"We are in the people business and the safety of the employees and guests in our restaurants is priority one," the announcement said.

"Unfortunately the management team of the franchised restaurant in Waco chose to ignore the warnings and advice from both the police and our company, and did not uphold the high security standards we have in place to ensure everyone is safe at our restaurants.

"We will not tolerate the actions of this relatively new franchisee and are revoking their franchise agreement immediately. Our sympathies continue to be with the families of those who died and are very thankful no employees, guests, police officers or bystanders were hurt or injured."

Swanton said, "That's a good thing for law enforcement here. That is one issue that we don't have to worry about – people coming in and creating another incident after the tragic incident we had last night."

Swat

When the restaurant refused to ban the Confederation of Clubs, police stationed at least 22 cops including at ten Swat officers from the Waco P.D. and the Texas Department of Public Safety in the parking lot outside the restaurant. They did not station either uniformed or plain clothes officers in the restaurant.

The shove in the bathroom became a scuffle in the restaurant. When about 30 Bandidos, Cossacks, Scimitars and other bikers spilled into the parking between the Twin peaks and the Don Carlos Mexican restaurant next door, the police were waiting for them. The scuffle became a knife fight and several men were stabbed. When one of the combatants produced a gun the Swat team opened fire with automatic weapons. Multiple sources have told The Aging Rebel that all of the dead were killed by police.

Swanton said the fusillade "saved lives in keeping this from spilling into a very busy Sunday morning. Thank goodness the officers were here and took the action that they needed to take to save numerous lives."

The investigation into the massacre is being supervised by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

Since the massacre, police have announced that there is "credible information about threats toward law enforcement." Waco police issued a bulletin at 10:13 Sunday night that announced: "Our agency has recieved (sic) information that the Cosaks (sic) and Banditos (sic) have issued an order to kill anyone in uniform."

http://www.bikernews.net

----------


## Anti Federalist

> The scuffle became a knife fight and several men were stabbed. When one of the combatants produced a gun the Swat team opened fire with automatic weapons. Multiple sources have told The Aging Rebel that all of the dead were killed by police.


There you have it.

Once again, militarized police forces open fire in Waco and get a bunch of people dead.

You cannot do damn thing in the land of the free in groups of more than 20 or so without feds and cops creeping around.

Wonder what would have happened if it had been a scuffle between the Nation of Islam and the Black Panthers that cops cut down with automatic weapons fire?

Wonder what "left leaning" copsuckers would have said then?

----------


## presence

> 5:1 odds the cops did all the killing with guns and the gangs did all the maiming with knives.





> all of the dead were killed by police




I win big on that 





> Once again, militarized police forces open fire in Waco and get a bunch of people dead.



so much for "never again"







I'd ROFL if the bloods, crips, and muslim brotherhood are on conference call with the cossacks and banditos

----------


## paleocon1

> .............................
> A militarized Police unit shot a bunch of Bikers. ........................


Your 'Facts' not in evidence. All we have at this point is YOUR paranoid take on what may or may not have occurred. No doubt ALL of these motorcycle thugs were just misunderstood gentle giants off on a summer adventure before college. They were stopped to buy your skittles, weren't they.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> When one of the combatants produced a gun the Swat team opened fire with automatic weapons. Multiple sources have told The Aging Rebel that all of the dead were killed by police.
> ...
> The investigation into the massacre is being supervised by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.


No doubt that will be a thorough investigation with serious ramifications.

Will Al Sharpton and Don Lemon be out in the streets inciting riots to protest this mass execution of biker thugs (and innocent bystanders)?

----------


## acptulsa

> Your 'Facts' not in evidence. All we have at this point is YOUR paranoid take on what may or may not have occurred. No doubt ALL of these motorcycle thugs were just misunderstood gentle giants off on a summer adventure before college. They were stopped to buy your skittles, weren't they.


Their little knife fight was a severe enough threat to the public safety of Waco, Texas that there was no alternative to exterminating them _en masse_ like cockroaches?

----------


## Schifference

> Their little knife fight was a severe enough threat to the public safety of Waco, Texas that there was no alternative to exterminating them _en masse_ like cockroaches?


That is where training pays off. Only professionally trained law enforcement officers know exactly when to intervene.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> Wonder what would have happened if it had been a scuffle between the Nation of Islam and the Black Panthers that cops cut down with automatic weapons fire?
> 
> Wonder what "left leaning" copsuckers would have said then?


It would have non-stop coverage on CNN and several cities would have riots by the weekend.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> Since the massacre, police have announced that there is "credible information about threats toward law enforcement." Waco police issued a bulletin at 10:13 Sunday night that announced: "Our agency has recieved (sic) information that the Cosaks (sic) and Banditos (sic) have issued an order to kill anyone in uniform."


Now why does that sound so familiar?




> ...the Baltimore Police Department announced they had received information about a "credible threat" against the lives of its officers.
> 
> In*a press release, the department states that "members of various gangs including the Black Guerilla Family, Bloods, and Crips have entered into a partnership to 'take out' law enforcement officers."
> ...
> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/baltimor...-against-cops/

----------


## navy-vet

> I'm reminded of this event:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexian_Lien_beating


oh yeah, thank's for the heads up here
I was wondering what was going on in that case....the cops involved should have been held to higher standard than their thug buddies....no surprise that that doesn't appear to be going in that direction though...

----------


## HankRicther12

> Why? Police Lie.. Why would the report of known liars matter?
> 
> I got a DUI in the Keys. I allegedly blew a .187. ( a scientifically impossible number)
> 
> Yes I had some beers. 5 beers (10 oz plastic cups)  over about six hours time. Less than one 12oz beer an hour.
> 
> The Cop was fired  a month later... for falsifying reports.. He had a habit of it.
> 
> likely still a Cop in another location. (as is common)


Cops can lie, sure, I don't deny that, but so can anyone, again, I'm not stating anything as a fact. I believe you said 3 beers at first, now it's 5? Look, it may have went down as you say, if so, he's wrong, I don't defend bad cops, never have never will, I'm only saying I wasn't there, don't know what happened, when working at the jail I heard many a tale of woe from the prisoners, then went and watched to squad cam and it told quite a different story, so I remain objective.




> See that little squiggly punctuation mark with a dot under it at the end of the first sentence?
> 
> That's a question mark not a critique mark, care to answer the question?
> 
> Plain English works best for stupid folks on the internet, like me....



Were you seriously asking a question? Seemed more like a childish insult to me.




> When is the last time you got pulled over by a biker Hank? Do you suddenly put your cell phone down when you see a biker while driving so you won't get a ticket? If you have a tail light out will a biker write you up for it to collect revenue or just say 'hey buddy, you have a tail light out'?
> 
> Nothing to do with anything? Lol, don't forget to put your seat belt on Hank, it's for your own safety after all. Daddy is looking out for YOU Hank, doesn't that make you feel special? Remember, 'click it or ticket'.


Again, irrelevant to the discussion about the reality that there are criminals out there, just because you haven't run afoul of someone doesn't mean they don't exist. This is all just a red herring.

----------


## HankRicther12

> Your 'Facts' not in evidence. All we have at this point is YOUR paranoid take on what may or may not have occurred. No doubt ALL of these motorcycle thugs were just misunderstood gentle giants off on a summer adventure before college. They were stopped to buy your skittles, weren't they.


Excellent. Another voice of reason on here, good to see it, would thumb you up but still in the penalty box.

----------


## Carlybee

All I know is I wouldn't want to be one of those cops.

----------


## tod evans

> All I know is I wouldn't want to be one of those cops.


My Grandpaw used to mix his metaphors, here's an appropriate one;

You buttered your bread, now lie in it.....

----------


## tod evans

> *when working at the jail* I heard many a tale of woe from the prisoners


Well that explains a lot.

----------


## pcosmar

> Well that explains a lot.


If it oinks like a ,,,

----------


## tod evans

> If it oinks like a ,,,

----------


## nobody's_hero

> Interesting that all these guys are not handcuffed, using their cells and the cop has his weapon pointed at the ground. 
> 
> 
> Attachment 4150


I thought that in the video schifference posted previously. These people are acting too casually to be real suspects. The cops in the aerial video are just casually pulling out the plastic handcuffs and laying them on the ground, and the detained bikers are all but going up to them and putting the cuffs on themselves. And the cell phone use? When was the last time you heard of a cop letting a suspect even look at a picture of a cell phone, much less have it in their hands and be using it? 

So you're telling me that every bystander within a hundred miles had their cell phones confiscated by the police and yet 5 feet behind this officer, Scimitar and Cossacks are playing Angry Words on their I-phone 3000's? The one standing on the left has his hands in his pockets and a cop hasn't shot his ass yet?* Bull. $#@!.* 

Either this is the most polite arrest in police history, or the whole situation is fake as hell. Wizardwatson may have to put me in the conspiracy camp, but if this isn't fake, it's for damn sure the weirdest $#@!ing thing I've ever seen between cops and crooks. That photo looks like it could be the theme for a Norman Rockwell art piece.

----------


## Carlybee

Story on Bandidos from Texas Monthly from 2007

Insight maybe as to why they are targeted




> .   The Gang’s All Here
> WHEN A BELOVED BROTHER DIED LAST SUMMER, MORE THAN FOUR HUNDRED BIKERS THUNDERED INTO SAN ANTONIO FOR HIS FUNERAL. AS THEY SWAPPED STORIES ABOUT THE OLD DAYS AND GUZZLED BEER, ONE MESSAGE COULD BE HEARD OVER THE ROAR OF THEIR HARLEYS: BANDIDOS FOREVER.
> by SKIP HOLLANDSWORTH
> APRIL 2007
> 
> 
> 
> THEY BEGAN ARRIVING AT THE MISSION PARK They began arriving at the Mission Park Funeral Home in San Antonio early on a Friday afternoon. They came in packs, riding two, sometimes three abreast, their motorcycles roaring loudly enough to rattle all the funeral home’s windows.
> 
> ...


http://www.texasmonthlydotcom/story/gangs-all-here
Rest of the story ( link broken).

----------


## HankRicther12

> Well that explains a lot.


Yes it does, it explains that unlike many of you I actually know WTF I'm talking rather than just sitting on a computer basing my world view on some Youtube clips. I wonder if any of you here are even in your 30's or late 20's for that matter.

"Oink", oh, how original. I'd love to introduce you to some of those upstanding citizens I dealt with, I'd give you all of about 5 sec in that cell before you're screaming like a little girl begging me to come save your little sissy butt.

----------


## pcosmar

> Yes it does, it explains that unlike many of you I actually know WTF I'm talking rather than just sitting on a computer basing my world view on some Youtube clips. I wonder if any of you here are even in your 30's or late 20's for that matter.
> 
> "Oink", oh, how original. I'd love to introduce you to some of those upstanding citizens I dealt with, I'd give you all of about 5 sec in that cell before you're screaming like a little girl begging me to come save your little sissy butt.


OK TurnKey,, 
Tell me again how I don't know anything.. I'm 58 years old,, own my home.(through honest labor)
And spent some time in prison and years on parole.. Which I completed.

Tell me something about prison life that I don't know.. or shut that stupid (faux superiority) bull$#@! up.

Folks here know my history..

5 sec in a cell indeed.. 

you might not last that long. especially when they smell the bacon.

----------


## ClydeCoulter

> OK TurnKey,, 
> Tell me again how I don't know anything.. I'm 58 years old,, own my home.(through honest labor)
> And spent some time in prison and years on parole.. Which I completed.
> 
> Tell me something about prison life that I don't know.. or shut that stupid (faux superiority) bull$#@! up.
> 
> Folks here know my history..
> 
> 5 sec in a cell indeed.. 
> ...


Yep, and 60 here and have done things that I hope most never have to experience, also.

----------


## tod evans

> Yes it does, it explains that unlike many of you I actually know WTF I'm talking rather than just sitting on a computer basing my world view on some Youtube clips. I wonder if any of you here are even in your 30's or late 20's for that matter.
> 
> "Oink", oh, how original. I'd love to introduce you to some of those upstanding citizens I dealt with, I'd give you all of about 5 sec in that cell before you're screaming like a little girl begging me to come save your little sissy butt.


You have no idea punk.....

And yes ALL hacks are punks. 

That's why all of you hide, you hide your real names, you hide your location and you live in fear. Fear of those whom you've abused or taken advantage of while roaming in packs like well trained dogs.

And you should hide, you should fear retribution.

Tell that to your blue brothers punk.

----------


## pcosmar

> 


Obviously has not been paying attention to prior posts in this thread.

----------


## tod evans

> Obviously has not been paying attention to prior posts in this thread.


$#@!in' graybeards.......

----------


## Anti Federalist

> WHEN A BELOVED BROTHER DIED LAST SUMMER, MORE THAN FOUR HUNDRED BIKERS THUNDERED INTO SAN ANTONIO FOR HIS FUNERAL. AS THEY SWAPPED STORIES ABOUT THE OLD DAYS AND GUZZLED BEER, ONE MESSAGE COULD BE HEARD OVER THE ROAR OF THEIR HARLEYS: BANDIDOS FOREVER.


How is this:



Any different than this?



A: One group relies on violence, intimidation and gangland tactics to extort their living from a terrified and docile population.

The other group rides motorcycles.

----------


## The Northbreather

^^^One is generally approved by the surrounding idiots who devour the MSM's worshipful bull$#@! like prime rib.

----------


## acptulsa

> How is this:
> 
> Any different than this?


The government guys have vehicles decorated with disco lights.

----------


## Origanalist

> Cops can lie, sure, I don't deny that, but so can anyone, again, I'm not stating anything as a fact. I believe you said 3 beers at first, now it's 5? Look, it may have went down as you say, if so, he's wrong, I don't defend bad cops, never have never will, I'm only saying I wasn't there, don't know what happened, when working at the jail I heard many a tale of woe from the prisoners, then went and watched to squad cam and it told quite a different story, so I remain objective.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Were you seriously asking a question? Seemed more like a childish insult to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, irrelevant to the discussion about the reality that there are criminals out there, just because you haven't run afoul of someone doesn't mean they don't exist. This is all just a red herring.


Are you for real? You think I've never dealt with "criminals"? Sorry Hank, you're way off base and clueless to boot.




> when working at the jail


 Ha ha ha, of course it all fits now. You're one of those bad ass jail wardens...

I have a clue for you Hank, most of the people you're addressing with your bull$#@! passed thirty decades ago. You'll have to blow smoke up someone else's ass.

----------


## devil21

> I suspect,,,
> That most of those guys assumed they had nothing to worry about,, being uninvolved in whatever transpired..
> 
> and are cooperating. I suspect also that many were carrying legally,, with valid permits.
> There is no doubt in my mind that some of them are cops..
> 
> It is clearly apparent that the police knew in advance of the meeting,, and the purpose of the meeting.. and were opposed to the end of friction between groups.
> 
> If I were to speculate,, I might suspect the fight started when someone outed a snitch. Identified some undercover Cop in their group,,,
> ...


I dunno man, that video looks like yet another drill type scenario, maybe with a targeted assassination.  Cops don't line up bikers (all with nice new unused leathers)  after a shootout that claimed lives, then search them in order, while the bad ass biker gang sits around quietly following orders.  Just doesn't ring true when we see that police SOP is to cuff everyone at gunpoint and then ask questions.  Just looks fake.  Probably more Jade Helm stuff.

----------


## HankRicther12

> OK TurnKey,, 
> Tell me again how I don't know anything.. I'm 58 years old,, own my home.(through honest labor)
> And spent some time in prison and years on parole.. Which I completed.
> 
> Tell me something about prison life that I don't know.. or shut that stupid (faux superiority) bull$#@! up.
> 
> Folks here know my history..
> 
> 5 sec in a cell indeed.. 
> ...


50? That's just embarrassing that you're that old and still think the way you do. Guess I must shoot you down again:

1.  I was a jailer for a whopping 2yrs back when I was in my early 20's  while I was going through school, left there when I was 25 and haven't  had anything to do with the police since then, I'm 40 now so do the math.

2. I love how you  proclaim that you were in jail as tho it's some badge of honor, but of  course it wasn't your fault you were in jail right? It was all the fault  of the cops and the turnkeys?

3. That brings up the next point,  most Americans live their entire lives never once being arrested, going  to jail, certainly not being beaten or shot by cops, yet somehow you  guys keep winding up in their path, hmmmm, one has to wonder if maybe  you are the problem.

4. Sure, as I've stated there are laws I'm  against, but nevertheless, for now, they are there, how dumb does a  person have to be to know something is illegal yet do it anyway?

5.  Worst of all, rather than doing anything useful to get rid of some of  these laws, you guys place all the blame on the every day patrolman (or  guys who were jailers in their early 20's while going through school)  rather than on the politicians who make the laws or more importantly  your fellow citizens who either directly or indirectly make the laws.

So  go ahead keyboard warriors, keep sitting here thumbing each other up, making  yourselves feel better, blaming the cops for your problems, everyone's  got to have their boogeyman, their scapegoat, for the left it's  businessman and straight white (Christian) males, for the right it's pot smokers and  Arab Muslims (or some foreign entity), and for you guys,  it's ole Officer Dan (and guys who were jailers for 2yrs in their early 20's  ) and all the while the real problems go by and nothing gets done about it.






> You have no idea punk.....
> 
> And yes ALL hacks are punks. 
> 
> That's why all of you hide, you hide your real names, you hide your location and you live in fear. Fear of those whom you've abused or taken advantage of while roaming in packs like well trained dogs.
> 
> And you should hide, you should fear retribution.
> 
> Tell that to your blue brothers punk.


WTF????





> Are you for real? You think I've never dealt  with "criminals"? Sorry Hank, you're way off base and clueless to boot.
> 
>  Ha ha ha, of course it all fits now. You're one of those bad ass jail wardens...
> 
> I have a clue for you Hank, most of the people you're addressing with  your bull$#@! passed thirty decades ago. You'll have to blow smoke up  someone else's ass.


When did I say you never dealt with criminals? Is is it possible for you to reply to something that I actually said? As to the rest of that, no clue what that even means.

----------


## tod evans

> WTF????


Comprehension problems?

I called you a punk for being a hack and very clearly stated that people of your ilk hide from the communities that pay their salaries.

Which government agency pays your salary now?

And................At just 40 you're a punk literally not just figuratively.

----------


## RJB

> Interesting that all these guys are not handcuffed, using their cells and the cop has his weapon pointed at the ground. 
> 
> 
> Attachment 4150


Are those all the undercovers?

----------


## Origanalist

> 50? That's just embarrassing that you're that old and still think the way you do. Guess I must shoot you down again:
> 
> 1.  I was a jailer for a whopping 2yrs back when I was in my early 20's  while I was going through school, left there when I was 25 and haven't  had anything to do with the police since then, I'm 40 now so do the math.
> 
> 2. I love how you  proclaim that you were in jail as tho it's some badge of honor, but of  course it wasn't your fault you were in jail right? It was all the fault  of the cops and the turnkeys?
> 
> 3. That brings up the next point,  most Americans live their entire lives never once being arrested, going  to jail, certainly not being beaten or shot by cops, yet somehow you  guys keep winding up in their path, hmmmm, one has to wonder if maybe  you are the problem.
> 
> 4. Sure, as I've stated there are laws I'm  against, but nevertheless, for now, they are there, how dumb does a  person have to be to know something is illegal yet do it anyway?
> ...


Now you're just babbling and (purposely?) forgetting what you posted. And yeah, you seem to be clueless, I agree. In case you haven't noticed, this forum is called 'Liberty Forest', not Do As You're Told And All Will Be Well Park.

----------


## HankRicther12

> Comprehension problems?
> 
> I called you a punk for being a hack and very clearly stated that people of your ilk hide from the communities that pay their salaries.
> 
> Which government agency pays your salary now?
> 
> And................At just 40 you're a punk literally not just figuratively.


I have a reading comprehension problem? You might want to read my post again, all your questions are answered quite clearly.

----------


## HankRicther12

> Now you're just babbling and (purposely?) forgetting what you posted. And yeah, you seem to be clueless, I agree. In case you haven't noticed, this forum is called 'Liberty Forest', not Do As You're Told And All Will Be Well Park.


Here is what you said to me:




> When  is the last time you got pulled over by a biker Hank? Do you suddenly  put your cell phone down when you see a biker while driving so you won't  get a ticket? If you have a tail light out will a biker write you up  for it to collect revenue or just say 'hey buddy, you have a tail light  out'?
> 
> Nothing to do with anything? Lol, don't forget to put your seat belt on  Hank, it's for your own safety after all. Daddy is looking out for YOU  Hank, doesn't that make you feel special? Remember, 'click it or  ticket'.


Here is what I said in response:




> Again, irrelevant to the discussion about the reality that there  are criminals out there, just because you haven't run afoul of someone  doesn't mean they don't exist. This is all just a red herring.


You were the one making the claim that bikers had never done this or that to you, I was only replying (not just to you as several others were making this same claim) that just because you personally haven't had issues with bikers doesn't mean bikers never commit crimes, what is so hard about this to comprehend?

----------


## tod evans

> Comprehension problems?
> 
> Which government agency pays your salary now?





> I have a reading comprehension problem? You might want to read my post again, all your questions are answered quite clearly.


The comprehension question was rhetorical.

The second one asking which government agency supports your semi-literate ass wasn't.

After reading the tripe you took the time to post I'm still left wondering if you addressed the question of employment, seeing as how in my old age my eyes aren't what they used to be maybe I missed it. Help me out there man of the world?

----------


## Origanalist

> Here is what you said to me:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what I said in response:
> 
> 
> 
> You were the one making the claim that bikers had never done this or that to you, I was only replying (not just to you as several others were making this same claim) that just because you personally haven't had issues with bikers doesn't mean bikers never commit crimes, what is so hard about this to comprehend?


Bikers commit crimes, bankers commit crimes, garbage men commit crimes, what's your point? I still have yet to hear of a biker pulling someone over and collecting revenue under threat of violence for a tail light out or having a couple of drinks with dinner.

----------


## RJB

> Bikers commit crimes, bankers commit crimes, garbage men commit crimes, what's your point? I still have yet to hear of a biker pulling someone over and collecting revenue under threat of violence for a tail light out or having a couple of drinks with dinner.


Yep.
I have yet to hear of a biker gang trying to pull this in a so-called free country:

----------


## paleocon1

> Their little knife fight was a severe enough threat to the public safety of Waco, Texas that there was no alternative to exterminating them _en masse_ like cockroaches?


Best evidence is that they self-exterminated. BTW, I should weep for a bunch of thugs because...........

----------


## Origanalist

> Yep.
> I have yet to hear of a biker gang trying to pull this in a so-called free country:


Hey, it's just a checkpoint. Just do as your told and you'll be ok. What's so hard about that?

----------


## tod evans

> Is this some roundabout way of making excuses for kops executing citizens and imprisoning their brethren with one million dollar bonds?





> Which government agency pays your salary now?


There are two very pointed questions you keep trying to dodge youngster.

It may be hard to focus, and it might be embarrassing but try really, really hard to answer each one in a manner that an idiot such as myself can comprehend...

Hints;

You could use yes/no to answer the first one and simply post the acronym for the second..

----------


## HankRicther12

> The comprehension question was rhetorical.
> 
> The second one asking which government agency supports your semi-literate ass wasn't.
> 
> After reading the tripe you took the time to post I'm still left  wondering if you addressed the question of employment, seeing as how in  my old age my eyes aren't what they used to be maybe I missed it. Help  me out there man of the world?


Not your business where I'm employed but it is not with the govt I can assure you of that, I actually have two jobs, one is my own business and the other is with a private company.





> Bikers commit crimes, bankers commit crimes, garbage men commit crimes, what's your point? I still have yet to hear of a biker pulling someone over and collecting revenue under threat of violence for a tail light out or having a couple of drinks with dinner.


OK, well I've yet to be pulled over by a cop for a "tail light out or having a couple of drinks with dinner." - so what's your point? BTW, how would a cop see your car and magically know you were just at dinner and had a couple of drinks, do they have psychic powers now? I don't agree with checkpoints so on that we are eye to eye.

Haven't dodged any questions. What are you talking about?

----------


## pcosmar

> Are those all the undercovers?


They are certainly not the hardened violent criminals that they are being portrayed as.

Most are just motorcycle enthusiasts who joined a Club and were out for a ride.

I have no doubt that there are some undercover pigs among them (they are literally everywhere). But most are just guys who ride.

----------


## presence

> I'd love to introduce you to some of those upstanding citizens I dealt with, I'd give you all of about 5 sec in that cell before you're screaming like a little girl begging me to come save your little sissy butt.


LOL

I've served hard time for a victimless crime.

Most of it was spent playing cards and swapping tales with the scary people. 




> 2. I love how you  proclaim that you were in jail as tho it's some badge  of honor, but of  course it wasn't your fault you were in jail right?  It was all the fault  of the cops and the turnkeys?


Yes.  I take having served times as a political prisoner, for a victimless crime against "the state", as a badge of honor.




> 3. That brings up the next point, *most Americans live their entire  lives never once being arrested*, going  to jail, certainly not being  beaten or shot by cops, yet somehow you  guys keep winding up in their  path, hmmmm, one has to wonder if maybe  you are the problem.






> *51%* of nonwhite males could anticipate being *arrested* for a *felony* at some time during their lifetimes  (Blumstein-Graddy)
> 
> []
> 
>  Blumstein and Graddy did not include misdemeanors, which make up the largest share of arrests and bookings, in their calculations.  Had they included misdemeanors, the percentage of nonwhite males who could expect to be arrested and at least briefly jailed would have reached
> Blumstein's original prediction of _90%._ As appalling as Blumstein's original numbers seemed,* they were confirmed by others over the
> ensuing two decades.*

----------


## tod evans

> Best evidence is that they *self-exterminated*. BTW, I should weep for a bunch of thugs because...........


Are you an idiot?

Newz isn't evidence.

----------


## pcosmar

> Are you an idiot?


Yes ,, yes he is.. Post History will confirm this.

----------


## HankRicther12

> LOL
> 
> I've served hard time for a victimless crime.
> 
> Most of it was spent playing cards and swapping tales with the scary people. 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.  I take having served times as a political prisoner, for a victimless crime against "the state", as a badge of honor.


It's funny how desperate all of you are to try and justify your positions that you present stuff like this. OK, "51% of nonwhite males", hmmmm, I also bet those nonwhite males are between the ages of 16-28 aren't they, in other words, they are a very small percentage of the population and I guarantee they are not "political prisoners" or committing "victimless crimes". Give it up already, the fact that you served time does not make you some hero, it makes you a fool, a smart person works to change the laws and avoids doing time.

Also, I'd being willing to bet you served your time in a county jail or something, I could be wrong, of course, but I doubt you were in with the killers and rapists and the violent gangs.

----------


## Origanalist

> It's funny how desperate all of you are to try and justify your positions that you present stuff like this. OK, "51% of nonwhite males", hmmmm, I also bet those nonwhite males are between the ages of 16-28 aren't they, in other words, they are a very small percentage of the population and I guarantee they are not "political prisoners" or committing "victimless crimes". Give it up already, the fact that you served time does not make you some hero, it makes you a fool, a smart person works to change the laws and avoids doing time.
> 
> Also, I'd being willing to bet you served your time in a county jail or something, I could be wrong, of course, but I doubt you were in with the killers and rapists and the violent gangs.


Keep digging....

----------


## osan

> Looks like there was a clear winner in which gang won the shootout



Well yes.  The kops won only because they hid behind the other patrons while busily wetting themselves.

----------


## tod evans

> Not your business where I'm employed but it is not with the govt I can assure you of that, I actually have two jobs, one is my own business and the other is with a private company.
> 
> Haven't dodged any questions. What are you talking about?


Okay I'll take your word on not drawing a check from government, staying on topic and since you attempt to be vague here's another question about your alleged source(s) of income;

Do you make, or help make, anything you can hold in your hands or touch? 


As for "dodged questions" see the the post I made preceding this one it quotes the first time I asked you a question in this thread.

----------


## osan

> I suspect this was provoked by the police themselves.


Y'think?

----------


## HankRicther12

> Okay I'll take your word on not drawing a check from government, staying on topic and since you attempt to be vague here's another question about your alleged source(s) of income;
> 
> Do you make, or help make, anything you can hold in your hands or touch? 
> 
> 
> As for "dodged questions" see the the post I made preceding this one it quotes the first time I asked you a question in this thread.


You mean this:




> Is this some roundabout way of making excuses for kops executing  citizens and imprisoning their brethren with one million dollar bonds?


I don't believe I ever said anything relating to this subject at all, so, I'd happily answer your question if I knew what it was.

As to the other, in my personal business that I own, I most certainly make things you can hold in your hand, as to my employment elsewhere I am a cog in the machine but yes they do most certainly make things you can hold in your hand.

----------


## pcosmar

> Also, I'd being willing to bet you served your time in a county jail or something, I could be wrong, of course, but I doubt you were in with the killers and rapists and the violent gangs.


Just shut the $#@! up.
you're just another Boot Licking Troll trying to derail a thread.

I was on the main yard of the Missouri State Pen. when US Marshals came to remove a young black man who had been convicted Murder.
He was sentenced to Life in Prison for a crime that he did not commit.

He did not do it.. and was escorted out when it was proved (very hard to do)  that he did not do it.

The "bloodiest 47 acres in America" was not a "county Jail".

And innocent people are sent to jail every day.. getting Free is much more difficult.  http://www.innocenceproject.org/

Now shut up and go away..* or post some proof that any of these men deserved to be shot dead by the Police*.

There is not one photo or video frame grab that shows any of these bikers with a gun in their hand (let alone shooting).

If such existed it would already be on the front page of the Media.. Is is not because it does not exist.

In this Surveillance State with cameras everywhere.. not one clip,  not one frame.

----------


## tod evans

> You mean this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				Is this some roundabout way of making excuses for kops executing citizens and imprisoning their brethren with one million dollar bonds?
> 			
> ...


Yes Hank I mean that.

But first congratulations on claiming to be a productive member of society! There have been many over the years who have shared your views who weren't and didn't even pretend to be.

Now let me try and help with this comprehension issue;




> Lol. This stuff cracks me up. I first saw this story when I checked my  AOL, and in the comments you had lefties trying to blame all this on  guns and the NRA, then righties trying to blame it on Obama and there  not being enough guns, *now I come here and I see the usual cop  conspiracy, I mean, it really is amazing the realities all of you create  in your minds.*





> Oh yes, I've heard these stories a hundred times, you were hassled for no reason I'm sure......, now, let me be clear, I always reserve judgement, perhaps you are in the right, things like that do happen, *however I find the vast majority of the time people are not just arrested for nothing.* At any rate, that is hardly much of a refute of what I said, I mean, come on, is that the best you can do?





> Well, as usual, I will reserve judgement till I hear the whole story, *but it's just funny to me how some of you here seem to live in this pretend world where pretty much there's no such thing as actual criminals who kill people, rape people, beat and intimidate people, oh no, it's all just a bunch of cop conspiracies.*


Following which I queried;




> Is this some roundabout way of making excuses for kops executing citizens and imprisoning their brethren with one million dollar bonds?


The question I asked took into account that this thread is about dead and imprisoned bikers, using that metric I weighed your posts that I quoted and highlighted and that lead me to the question that remains unanswered...

----------


## HankRicther12

> Just shut the $#@! up.
> you're just another Boot Licking Troll trying to derail a thread.
> 
> I was on the main yard of the Missouri State Pen. when US Marshals came  to remove a young black man who had been convicted Murder.
> He was sentenced to Life in Prison for a crime that he did not commit.
> 
> He did not do it.. and was escorted out when it was proved (very hard to do)  that he did not do it.
> 
> The "bloodiest 47 acres in America" was not a "county Jail".
> ...


First off, what you quoted was not a response to you, maybe pay attention.

2nd, wrongful convictions happen, who's denying that? That's a whole nother topic, has nothing to do with the discussion.

Finally,  I've not said one thing about this biker incident other than I don't  know what happened so I'm not going to run my mouth like all of you are  as if you have any clue which you don't.





> Yes Hank I mean that.
> 
> But first congratulations on claiming to be a productive member of society! There have been many over the years who have shared your views who weren't and didn't even pretend to be.
> 
> Now let me try and help with this comprehension issue;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK, and I will answer as I always have. On any particular incident I start off from a position of neutrality. I wait and see what the evidence is and when it's all said and done then I make up my mind. In some cases you will never get the truth, it's just an unfortunate reality of life. 

However, what I most certainly speak against with no doubt in my mind is the way all of you immediately judge someone just because they are a cop, in any situation, no matter the evidence, the moment you hear "cop" - the cop is instantly guilty, you need hear no more. To blindly judge over 1million people who you don't know, have never even met, is wrong. If you show me some actual proof of a cop doing something wrong I'll be the first to condemn him, but wild theories are not proof.

If any of you are actually serious about dealing with the real problems in our govt and actual incidents of police misconduct, it doesn't help your case to be going around blindly hating people, jumping to conclusions and making statements that can easily be proven false.

----------


## tod evans

> OK, and I will answer as I always have. On any particular incident I start off from a position of neutrality. I wait and see what the evidence is and when it's all said and done then I make up my mind. In some cases you will never get the truth, it's just a reality of life. However, what I most certainly speak against with no doubt in my mind is the way all of you immediately judge someone just because they are a cop, in any situation, no matter the evidence, the moment you hear "cop" - the cop is instantly guilty, you need hear no more. To blindly judge over 1million people who you don't know, have never even met, is wrong. If you show me some actual proof of a cop doing something wrong I'll be the first to condemn him, but wild theories are not proof.
> 
> If any of you are actually serious about dealing with the real problems in our govt and actual incidents of police misconduct, it doesn't help your case to be going around blindly hating people, jumping to conclusion and making statements that can easily be proven false.


I give up!

Apparently you have no intention of answering the question asked.

When you start with the "all of you" BS in response to me it tells me you're unable to comprehend or focus........Even better, by making these silly proclomations about "all of you" you are doing the exact same thing you accuse "all of you" as doing..

Cyber ink is free but my time isn't, later flake boy.....

----------


## pcosmar

> First off, what you quoted was not a response to you, maybe pay attention.


It was your statement in this thread.. I responded to that statement as I was involved in this thread and discussion before you entered it.

My attention span is far broader than any single post.





> the moment you hear "cop" - the cop is instantly guilty, you need hear no more.


to an extent
That is because* Police should not exist* in this country.
http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm
The very concept of police should not exist,, or at best the concept should be denigrated as the lowest and most despicable crime.. on par with rape..

There is no place for control enforcers in a Free Society.. It is an Authoritarian Concept. It is the Polar opposite of Liberty.
It is anti-Liberty of both concept and practice.

Police should not exist..  Their existence is offensive.

----------


## presence

> "51% of nonwhite males", hmmmm, I also bet those nonwhite males are  between the ages of 16-28 aren't they, in other words, they are a very  small percentage of the population


No 

~50% chance all non white males will get arrested in their lifetime for a felony; ~90% for at least a misdemeanor.   Simple as that; it has nothing to do with age bracket.   Its modern slavery by a different name; "per se".

----------


## HankRicther12

> I give up!
> 
> Apparently you have no intention of answering the question asked.
> 
> When you start with the "all of you" BS in response to me it tells me you're unable to comprehend or focus........Even better, by making these silly proclomations about "all of you" you are doing the exact same thing you accuse "all of you" as doing..
> 
> Cyber ink is free but my time isn't, later flake boy.....


You have no proof that anyone was "executed", judges set the bond on their brothers and whether or not it's justified is not a question you or I can answer, so your "question" is just a silly straw man. I said "all of you" clearly directed at the people here who continue to blindly judge the cops, not hard to spot them, your contention that I was directing it wildly is just false.

----------


## HankRicther12

> It was your statement in this thread.. I  responded to that statement as I was involved in this thread and  discussion before you entered it.
> 
> My attention span is far broader than any single post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to an extent
> That is because* Police should not exist* in this country.
> ...


That's just your opinion, you're welcome to it, but that's just the  point, there are plenty of definitions of what a "free society" means,  where do one persons rights end and anothers begin, and when one person  chooses to violate anothers rights who deals with it? Are you a believer  in the whole private security notion? If not, what is your solution to  those who will violate the NAP?





> No 
> 
> ~50% chance all non white males will get arrested in their lifetime for a felony; ~90% for at least a misdemeanor.   Simple as that; it has nothing to do with age bracket.   Its modern slavery by a different name; "per se".


You're not paying attention. Add up those people arrested, it is a very small percentage of the population.

----------


## moostraks

> First off, what you quoted was not a response to you, maybe pay attention.
> 
> 2nd, wrongful convictions happen, who's denying that? That's a whole nother topic, has nothing to do with the discussion.


Or maybe you could take a moment to think of why he responded to said comment, Ya think? Like, oh, maybe he agrees with the pp you are disrespecting with said ass-umptions of 'facts' not in evidence and preemptively giving you his background as a rebuttal to said accusation to those who disagree with you. As for wrongful convictions occurring, this would be why now? Because it is pretty pertinent to the case you are trying to make here dontcha think, maybe? Henceforth why it was brought up in the first place...

----------


## pcosmar

I'm off to Azeroth for a while.

will check back later to see if any evidence of what transpired materializes.

or what new evidence unravels the police lies.

----------


## pcosmar

> You're not paying attention. Add up those people arrested, it is a very small percentage of the population.




http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...art-of-the-day


Authoritarianism

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/authoritarian

----------


## Anti Federalist

> 3. That brings up the next point,  most Americans live their entire lives never once being arrested, going  to jail, certainly not being beaten or shot by cops, yet somehow you  guys keep winding up in their path, hmmmm, one has to wonder if maybe  you are the problem.


What solace is there in that figure, when the ratio of people "in the system" here in AmeriKa is the highest in the world?




> 4. Sure, as I've stated there are laws I'm  against, but nevertheless, for now, they are there, how dumb does a  person have to be to know something is illegal yet do it anyway?


You know every law, rule, regulation, code, mandate, edict, ordinance and statute on the books?

Congratulations.

You are the *only* man in the country who does.




> 5.  Worst of all, rather than doing anything useful to get rid of some of  these laws, you guys place all the blame on the every day patrolman (or  guys who were jailers in their early 20's while going through school)  rather than on the politicians who make the laws or more importantly  your fellow citizens who either directly or indirectly make the laws.


With awareness comes action.

Sales of military hardware to cops have stopped, action is being taken on the dog killing front, cops are being charged for shooting unarmed mundanes, incarcerations are slowly going down, mandatory minimums are being repealed, innocent people are being released, after much hard work...not perfect, there is a long way to go, but at least there is a start of some push back.




> So  go ahead keyboard warriors, keep sitting here thumbing each other up, making  yourselves feel better, blaming the cops for your problems, everyone's  got to have their boogeyman, their scapegoat, for the left it's  businessman and straight white (Christian) males, for the right it's pot smokers and  Arab Muslims (or some foreign entity), and for you guys,  it's ole Officer Dan (and guys who were jailers for 2yrs in their early 20's  ) and all the while the real problems go by and nothing gets done about it.


Officer Dan *is* a real problem.

You don't want to admit it, because you identify with it.

And then, what are you, but another "keyboard warrior"?

Why do people even bother to sign up for an online discussion and debate forum and then get angry when things get debated and discussed online?

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> You're not paying attention. Add up those people arrested, it is a very small percentage of the population.


_You're_ not paying attention.  America imprisons a higher percentage of our population than _any other nation on the planet_.  Despotic tyranny hidden in plain sight.

----------


## acptulsa

> OK, and I will answer as I always have. On any particular incident I start off from a position of neutrality. I wait and see what the evidence is and when it's all said and done then I make up my mind. In some cases you will never get the truth, it's just an unfortunate reality of life. 
> 
> However, what I most certainly speak against with no doubt in my mind is the way all of you immediately judge someone just because they are a cop, in any situation, no matter the evidence, the moment you hear "cop" - the cop is instantly guilty, you need hear no more. To blindly judge over 1million people who you don't know, have never even met, is wrong. If you show me some actual proof of a cop doing something wrong I'll be the first to condemn him, but wild theories are not proof.
> 
> If any of you are actually serious about dealing with the real problems in our govt and actual incidents of police misconduct, it doesn't help your case to be going around blindly hating people, jumping to conclusions and making statements that can easily be proven false.


That all sounds very reasonable, but it isn't.

What is reasonable is assuming that all evidence that the cops were overly rambunctuous in their zeal to escalate a situation (lest it--_gasp_--escalate without them egging it on) will vanish into the courthouse basement.  What is reasonable is assuming the lapdog media will be complicit in that.  What is reasonable is the view that when the cops do well, they are more than forthcoming with evidence of the fact, and when they are not forthcoming, 99% of the time if evidence comes out later it proves official complicity and incompetence.  Therefore, what is reasonable is to assume that when officialdom clamps a tight lid on information, they have a reason for doing it.

This is simply the voice of experience.  Variations are less than two percent.

----------


## Carlybee

> Are those all the undercovers?


Don't know..they sure don't look like a bunch of bikers who have just been involved in a bar fight, shot at and arrested.

----------


## Carlybee

> .     The arrested bikers have all been charged with engaging in organized crime and each is being held on $1 million bonds. It is unclear how long they will remain in custody.
> 
> "Unless they try to make some other arrangement to move them through it more quickly, it could be weeks and possibly months" before the jailed bikers have bond-reduction hearings, said William Smith, an attorney who has met with several of the inmates.


So even if they weren't involved they will sit in jail





> .       WACO, Texas -- Bullets ricocheted around the parking lot of Twin Peaks, the Waco restaurant where a motorcycle gang shootout left nine dead, just minutes after Theron Rhoten pulled in on his vintage Harley chopper for a regional motorcycle club meeting, according to Rhoten's wife.
> 
> Katie Rhoten told The Associated Press that her husband ran for cover and was later arrested, along with antique motorcycle enthusiast friends and other "nonviolent, noncriminal people." Authorities swept up around 170 bikers who had descended on the restaurant for what one club member described as a gathering to discuss laws protecting motorcycle riders.
> 
> "He's good to his family," she said. "He doesn't drink; he doesn't do drugs; he doesn't party. He's just got a passion for motorcycles."
> 
> McLennan County Sheriff Parnell McNamara and Waco police Sgt. W. Patrick Swanton declined to comment Tuesday on allegations that innocent bikers were arrested. Police have said the gathering of five biker groups was to resolve a dispute over turf.
> 
> Katie Rhoten said her husband, a mechanic from Austin, called her from jail and said that he and two other members of Vise Grip Club ducked and ran for cover as the violence that left 18 people injured raged around them.

----------


## specsaregood

./

----------


## RJB

> That's just your opinion, you're welcome to it, but that's just the  point, there are plenty of definitions of what a "free society" means, .


Baloney.  It's pretty evident.

----------


## HankRicther12

> Or maybe you could take a moment to think of  why he responded to said comment, Ya think? Like, oh, maybe he agrees  with the pp you are disrespecting with said ass-umptions of 'facts' not  in evidence and preemptively giving you his background as a rebuttal to  said accusation to those who disagree with you. As for wrongful  convictions occurring, this would be why now? Because it is pretty  pertinent to the case you are trying to make here dontcha think, maybe?  Henceforth why it was brought up in the first place...


What?  I was addressing a specific comment from a specific person, he came in  and said something about HIS situation which was completely different.  Wrongful convictions occur because of prosecutors, judges, and your own  fellow citizens sitting on juries, the arresting officer is not the defining factor in a  conviction, oh, but let me guess, you're going to tell me they plant all  kinds of evidence right, which, while it does happen it's certainly not  the reason most people are in prison.




> Authoritarianism
> 
> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/authoritarian


OK,  so 2.5 mill, out of 335mill, not exactly a majority is it? So how is my  statement false? Likewise, we aren't getting into the facts of those  imprisoned and whether or not they did something to deserve being there.  Also, I will say ONCE AGAIN, I agree there are problems in the legal  system, in the govt in general, however, if you live in a society where  "X" is illegal and you do "X" anyhow, unless it was something like  stealing bread to live, don't come crying to me because you are in  prison.





> What solace is there in  that figure, when the ratio of people "in the system" here in AmeriKa is  the highest in the world?
> 
> You know every law, rule, regulation, code, mandate, edict, ordinance and statute on the books? Congratulations. You are the *only* man in the country who does.
> 
> With awareness comes action. Sales of military hardware to cops have stopped, action is being taken  on the dog killing front, cops are being charged for shooting unarmed  mundanes, incarcerations are slowly going down, mandatory minimums are  being repealed, innocent people are being released, after much hard  work...not perfect, there is a long way to go, but at least there is a  start of some push back.
> 
> Officer Dan *is* a real problem. You don't want to admit it, because you identify with it.
> 
> And then, what are you, but another "keyboard warrior"?
> ...


OK, so it's the highest in the world, let's do  something about it like working to change the laws, maybe getting  certain judges/prosecutors out of office, it's hard to make much  difference on big elections like President, Senate, etc, but most judges/prosecutors/sheriffs  have very low voter participation, I know, we got a DA thrown in my  town with rallying 30 people, and we only needed 6 of them.

No, I  don't know every rule, but amazingly in 40yrs I've managed to stay out  of jail, so has nearly every person I know, and the one's who haven't  got there by their own actions and they knew full well what they were  doing was against the law.

I'm all for discussion, and it's funny you throw such a thing at me  when nearly every reply people have made to me have been absurd  exaggerations and twisting of my words. Awareness is fine, but lies,  blind hatred, and conspiracy theories just muddy the waters and are  counter-productive. You say I don't want to "admit it" because I "identify with it", what is "it" that I identify with? Yes, there are certainly things I say should be illegal like murder, rape, assault, theft, fraud, and if you do one of those things you should be arrested, tried and if found guilty put in jail, call me crazy!





> _You're_ not paying attention.  America imprisons a higher percentage of our population than _any other nation on the planet_.  Despotic tyranny hidden in plain sight.


My statement: _"The vast majority of Americans do not get arrested or put in jail"_ - now, is that statement true or false?





> That all sounds very reasonable, but it isn't. What is reasonable is assuming that all evidence that the cops were  overly rambunctuous in their zeal to escalate a situation (lest it--_gasp_--escalate  without them egging it on) will vanish into the courthouse basement.   What is reasonable is assuming the lapdog media will be complicit in  that.  What is reasonable is the view that when the cops do well, they  are more than forthcoming with evidence of the fact, and when they are  not forthcoming, 99% of the time if evidence comes out later it proves  official complicity and incompetence.  Therefore, what is reasonable is  to assume that when officialdom clamps a tight lid on information, they  have a reason for doing it. This is simply the voice of experience.  Variations are less than two percent.


No, that's not reasonable because you have absolutely no proof of any of it. The media sure covered up for Darren Wilson didn't they? I'm sure he'd like to give them a big fat thank you.




> Baloney.  It's pretty evident.


Oh for Pete's sakes, the Nazi's??? Really, you're gonna go there, you ever hear of Godwin's Law? Oh, and BTW, that one picture is TSA, they are federal, they are not local police, I am against the TSA.

----------


## RonPaulIsGreat

A moment of silence for the 9 saints who laid down their lives in the pursuit of goodness and peace outside the titty bar. May their guns and knives find a place in heaven and in the hearts of those that offend them or encroach upon their piece of heaven. 

R.I.P. Brave Warriors. Ride Free in the heavens.

----------


## Smitty

I think some of this situation stinks, and I've never been a hard core biker or anything like one, but I've been around them enough to know that if a bunch of *ahem* "1%'ers" showed up at a party you were hosting, you'd be damn glad when they were gone.

----------


## pcosmar

> So even if they weren't involved they will sit in jail


Yes.

Innocent people are jailed every day. (Usually not this many all at once)

And the Police/State will *never admit they are wrong*.. Even when paying settlements.

----------


## pcosmar

> I think some of this situation stinks, and I've never been a hard core biker or anything like one, but I've been around them enough to know that if a bunch of *ahem* "1%'ers" showed up at a party you were hosting, you'd be damn glad when they were gone.


Nope.. 
I have been at parties with them.. Many times..
Have always been glad to have them there.

----------


## pcosmar

> Oh for Pete's sakes, the Nazi's??? Really, you're gonna go there, you ever hear of Godwin's Law?


Yup,, I've heard of it..
wasn't that some internet "law" created to prevent people from pointing out similarities in Authoritarian States?

There is no difference between the German Police of the 1930s and the American police today.
Police are police.. They are CONTROL Enforcers. An Authoritarian construct.

And since you asked earlier.. NO.. I am not in favor of private Police.. I am in favor of *NO POLICE*.

----------


## HankRicther12

> Yup,, I've heard of it..
> wasn't that some internet "law" created to prevent people from pointing out similarities in Authoritarian States?
> 
> There is no difference between the German Police of the 1930s and the American police today.
> Police are police.. They are CONTROL Enforcers. An Authoritarian construct.
> 
> And since you asked earlier.. NO.. I am not in favor of private Police.. I am in favor of *NO POLICE*.


OK, fine, I'm open to new ideas, what's your suggestion to deal with those who would violate the NAP? I'd also like it if from now on anytime someone on the right, left, all things in between brings up the Nazi's, God would automatically transport them to 1930's Germany to see what it was actually like, I think you'd hear a lot less Nazi references.

----------


## pcosmar

> OK, fine, I'm open to new ideas, what's your suggestion to deal with those who would violate the NAP?


How was it done before police were invented? When there were NO Police in this country..

http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

Educate yourself. It is not a New Idea.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I'm all for discussion, and it's funny you throw such a thing at me  when nearly every reply people have made to me have been absurd  exaggerations and twisting of my words. Awareness is fine, but lies,  blind hatred, and conspiracy theories just muddy the waters and are  counter-productive. You say I don't want to "admit it" because I "identify with it", what is "it" that I identify with?


Post these lies, conspiracy theories, blind hatred, and where I have twisted your words.

I claim that you indentify with the law enforcement brotherhood, since you were, by your own admission, once part of that.




> My statement: _"The vast majority of Americans do not get arrested or put in jail"_ - now, is that statement true or false?


Of course it is true, it's also true, and I have stated many times, that *most* encounters with cops, will go smoothly as well.

I am looking, not at the percentages, but at the gruesome results of when one of those encounters *do* go sideways: severe injury, death, prison and execution are some of the possibilities.

Which they do with alarming and increasing frequency.

----------


## HankRicther12

> How was it done before police were invented? When there were NO Police in this country..
> 
> http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm
> 
> Educate yourself. It is not a New Idea.


Lol. OK, and those people were never corrupt? Innocent people never got hanged, small time farmers and businessmen were never harassed, beaten, or killed in order to obtain their property? Small town sheriffs never colluded with Mayors? Do I even need to start listing off all the instances of this?

See, maybe I ought to explain here, I do not propose any kind of system that will work, yes, you heard me right, I do not have the answer, because there is not an answer. The fact that some of you either don't recognize or don't want to admit is that humans are herd animals. I don't care what you do, things will always wind up as they are now. Humans simply are not capable on the whole of being independent, they do not want it, yes, some of it is due to the propaganda most Americans are spoon fed these days, but it's always been this way, always will, look around you. 

Some of you give your fellow citizens way too much credit, what you suggest is not possible, they could never do it, they would never do it, there are times in a pack when the leader is challenged and overthrown, but does individuality break out? Nope, they all just fall in line behind the new leader, people are the same, tear down this govt, I promise you another will rise up.

So, some may ask, why am I here, why do I even bother if it's hopeless? Because I do believe in history there are times when govt was smaller and that it is possible to have brief periods with small govt, and so that is what I'm pushing for tho I am not very optimistic about it actually happening in my time, looking around at America today there are just far too many people dependent on the govt, only a crash could stop it, and likely what rises out of it will be worse than now, but I try anyway, what else can I do?

----------


## Smitty

> Nope.. 
> I have been at parties with them.. Many times..
> Have always been glad to have them there.



Well,..I've been at public events where people were sitting, minding their own business and a group of HA's walked up to them,...wanted their seats, and said "move".

Just because the cops don't like you doesn't mean that you're not an $#@!.

The cops have conflicts with a lot of regular people and they have conflicts with $#@!s.

----------


## tod evans

> Well,..I've been at public events where people were sitting, minding their own business and a group of HA's walked up to them,...wanted their seats, and said "move".
> .


Why you poor thing......

At least they didn't squat down, look you in the eye and say "Boo".....

----------


## HankRicther12

> Post these lies, conspiracy theories, blind hatred, and where I have twisted your words.
> 
> I claim that you indentify with the law enforcement brotherhood, since you were, by your own admission, once part of that.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it is true, it's also true, and I have stated many times, that *most* encounters with cops, will go smoothly as well.
> 
> I am looking, not at the percentages, but at the gruesome results of when one of those encounters *do* go sideways: severe injury, death, prison and execution are some of the possibilities.
> ...


I wasn't just responding to you. I don't "identify with law enforcement" and I haven't been a part of it since I was in my early 20's, that is an eon ago and I was just a college kid doing it for some money to live on. The only thing I take from it is a perspective that none of you have, I've seen the other side of the story and therefore know that much of what is said on these boards about cops is complete BS.

Let's just take an example: OK, so supposedly most cops are just power trip A-Holes who take some sick pleasure in messing with people and all of that.

Here's the truth, cops, like everyone, are just people. I worked with 5 different cities and I can tell you that while sure, there were a few cops who fit the ugly stereotype, most of them were lazy as $#@!, it cracks me up to hear some of you claim they try to go out making incidents and stuff like that. Anything they do they then have to write out reports which they all hated, I hated doing them as well, I did them, but I hated it. I groaned whenever a prisoner came in, they groaned whenever they got a 911 call. I'll tell you a big secret here - the majority of cops would like nothing more than to just come in and drive around listening to their radio or park under a tree and take a nap. If you see a cop at someone's house or something like that, 90% of the time it's because one of your fellow citizens called them there.

As for the conspiracies, really? Have you even read this discussion? Let's see, I'm hearing how under cover cops instigated this whole thing, cranked up the tensions, executed bikers, this is all some grand scheme to keep a bunch of peaceful gangs from organizing......

As for some encounters with cops turning violent, well, yes, naturally that's going to happen, and as I'VE stated numerous times, show me a situation where you have proof the cop was wrong, I'm right there with ya, I'm just not going to blindly judge people simply because they are a cop.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> OK, so it's the highest in the world, let's do  something about it like working to change the laws, maybe getting  certain judges/prosecutors out of office, it's hard to make much  difference on big elections like President, Senate, etc, but most judges/prosecutors/sheriffs  have very low voter participation, I know, we got a DA thrown in my  town with rallying 30 people, and we only needed 6 of them.


And that is what I'm trying to do here.

Trying to get enough people agitated and aware so that more people show up at my local police commission meeting, that more people raise hell when one of our little towns here in New England decide the cops need a tank, when people hold an execution protest, that show up and raise hell when the cops shoot an unarmed man, and on and on.

And I have to fight a nonstop battle between folks like you that think "things are not so bad, what are you whining about?" to lunatics like Chris Brown who claims that he and he alone has the one true path to freedom and anybody who does not agree with him is a government agent.

If anybody is "muddying the waters" it's people like that.




> No, I  don't know every rule, but amazingly in 40yrs I've managed to stay out  of jail, so has nearly every person I know, and the one's who haven't  got there by their own actions and they knew full well what they were  doing was against the law.


And I can guarentee you that you have broken many of them.

The surveillance grid is just not tight enough to catch you...yet.

Search; Three Felonies a Day.

----------


## Smitty

> Why you poor thing......
> 
> At least they didn't squat down, look you in the eye and say "Boo".....


It wasn't me.

It was some regular, blue collar, conservative working class guys much like a lot of people here who happened to be friends of mine,...who payed their money and was playing by the rules like people in polite society do.

It you want to take the side of some anti-social $#@!bird over people who are very much like you and everybody you associate with,..then you're an idiot.

----------


## Smitty

A couple of weeks ago there were a lot of people on here singing the -praises of a buncha looting, arsonists,...this week they're sucking up to a bunch of psychopaths who happen to ride motorcycles.

Have any of you people ever been out of your mammy's basement?

,...seriously.

----------


## pcosmar

> It wasn't me.
> 
> It was some regular, blue collar, conservative working class guys much like a lot of people here who happened to be friends of mine,...who payed their money and was playing by the rules like people in polite society do.
> 
> It you want to take the side of some anti-social $#@!bird over people who are very much like you and everybody you associate with,..then you're an idiot.


Exactly what venue was this? and how do you know they were Hells Angels.

I have had multiple encounters,, first in the mid 70s as a teen,, and the last at a Grateful Dead Concert,,with my (no yet at the time) wife.

They smoked a joint with me,, and I thanked them for the kindness.

----------


## HankRicther12

> And that is what I'm trying to do here.
> 
> Trying to get enough people agitated and aware so that more people show up at my local police commission meeting, that more people raise hell when one of our little towns here in New England decide the cops need a tank, when people hold an execution protest, that show up and raise hell when the cops shoot an unarmed man, and on and on.
> 
> And I have to fight a nonstop battle between *folks like you that think "things are not so bad, what are you whining about?"* to lunatics like Chris Brown who claims that he and he alone has the one true path to freedom and anybody who does not agree with him is a government agent.
> 
> If anybody is "muddying the waters" it's people like that.
> 
> 
> ...


Show me where I've ever said anything even remotely like that. I'm actually quite outraged at the current state of America in many ways, unfortunately I've been forced to constantly defend against these absurd things being thrown around at the police, I want to make changes, but to just throw some blanket rage at everyone in a police uniform is wrong. 

Let's take the Eric Garner thing, now I don't believe race had anything to do with it, I don't believe those cops were bloodthirsty monsters who wanted to kill him, but I do believe they used excessive force and should have been charged. So, it didn't happen, and rather than go after the prosecutor, or look even to the bigger picture of those cig taxes and even bigger the reasons for the taxes ie people wanting govt to dress them, feed them, tuck them in at night - we instead get what? "Hands up, Don't Shoot", "Black Lives Matter".

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I wasn't just responding to you. I don't "identify with law enforcement" and I haven't been a part of it since I was in my early 20's, that is an eon ago and I was just a college kid doing it for some money to live on. The only thing I take from it is a perspective that none of you have, I've seen the other side of the story and therefore know that much of what is said on these boards about cops is complete BS.


What, you think I have never met, known, interacted or worked with cops before?

You have no particular insight beyond what everybody else has.




> Let's just take an example: OK, so supposedly most cops are just power trip A-Holes who take some sick pleasure in messing with people and all of that.
> 
> Here's the truth, cops, like everyone, are just people. I worked with 5 different cities and I can tell you that while sure, there were a few cops who fit the ugly stereotype, most of them were lazy as $#@!, it cracks me up to hear some of you claim they try to go out making incidents and stuff like that. Anything they do they then have to write out reports which they all hated, I hated doing them as well, I did them, but I hated it. I groaned whenever a prisoner came in, they groaned whenever they got a 911 call. I'll tell you a big secret here - the majority of cops would like nothing more than to just come in and drive around listening to their radio or park under a tree and take a nap. If you see a cop at someone's house or something like that, 90% of the time it's because one of your fellow citizens called them there.


So you are saying that, instead of authoritarian $#@!s, they are cynical and lazy instead.

Somehow, that is worse, and lends *more* credibility to the "there should be no full time cops" argument.




> As for the conspiracies, really? Have you even read this discussion? Let's see, I'm hearing how under cover cops instigated this whole thing, cranked up the tensions, executed bikers, this is all some grand scheme to keep a bunch of peaceful gangs from organizing......


And, so?

This has happened many times before, the 1968 Democratic convention in Chicago, the WTO riots in Seattle, the Massacre in Waco over 20 years ago, the 1993 WTC bombing, the MOVE bombing...these are just few right off the top of my head, where cops instigated, caused, promoted, or otherwise made a bad situation worse by their actions or presence.




> As for some encounters with cops turning violent, well, yes, naturally that's going to happen, and as I'VE stated numerous times, show me a situation where you have proof the cop was wrong, I'm right there with ya, I'm just not going to blindly judge people simply because they are a cop.


Well, start with doing what I do and contribute to the Innocence Project, and get an eyefull of the incidents where innocent people ended up on death row because of crooked cops and prosecutors.

----------


## Smitty

> Exactly what venue was this? and how do you know they were Hells Angels.
> 
> .


They're hard to miss. Being incognito is not one of their strengths.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Show me where I've ever said anything even remotely like that. I'm actually quite outraged at the current state of America in many ways, unfortunately I've been forced to constantly defend against these absurd things being thrown around at the police, I want to make changes, but to just throw some blanket rage at everyone in a police uniform is wrong.


So, what is it, exactly, that you are outraged at?

----------


## pcosmar

> his week they're sucking up to a bunch of psychopaths who happen to ride motorcycles.


What makes them psychopaths?? other than SPLC talking points and media smears..

One has been identified as a retired cop,, another just posted the bond. Most have no criminal convictions and some were carrying weapons legally.

One of the groups there was Biker Ministries.. Preachers on Bikes..

But go right on ahead with your broad brush.

----------


## Smitty

> What makes them psychopaths??(


I'm no psychologist,..but I would assume it was a combination of nature and nurture.

----------


## tod evans

> It wasn't me.
> 
> It was some regular, blue collar, conservative working class guys much like a lot of people here who happened to be friends of mine,...who payed their money and was playing by the rules like people in polite society do.
> 
> It you want to take the side of some anti-social $#@!bird* over people who are very much like you and everybody you associate with,..then you're an idiot.*


You don't know me from Adam....




> A couple of weeks ago there were a lot of people on here singing the -praises of a buncha looting, arsonists,...this week they're sucking up to a bunch of psychopaths who happen to ride motorcycles.
> 
> Have any of you people ever been out of your mammy's basement?
> 
> ,...seriously.


Try to be a bit more specific here Ace, about who has sung praises and sucked up...

From here it seems as though you're way off base.

I don't know what rock you crawled out from under but as far as I know the majority of the folks posting in this thread have paid enough taxes over the last decades to buy your mothers basement several times over. 

You haven't exhibited any astounding insight or wit to be slinging insults with such jocularity and aplomb, unlike in person these interwebs require mental acuity and dexterity, since you couldn't or wouldn't address the boogy-bikers in person you obviously feel somewhat vindicated poking sticks at some unknown to you boogy-bikers the kops just attacked..

That's pretty low..

----------


## Root

$#@! the police.

----------


## Smitty

Yeah,..well,..tell ya what, Todd,..

You go down to Arizona,..look up Sonny Barger,..give him a big hug and call him brother.

,..wipe his spit out of your eye,..

Then go on back home to mammy's basement.

----------


## pcosmar

> I'm no psychologist,..but I would assume it was a combination of nature and nurture.


So,, anyone that joins a bike club is a psychopath?
or is it anyone who rides Motorcycles?

Do you even know any history of how and why these clubs formed??

or how they came to be demonized by law enforcement?

(much like Reefer Madness)

----------


## Carlybee

I avoid absolutes. While I think this thing stinks to high heaven, I wouldn't go so far as to try and make Bandidos look like choir boys either.  I don't have a dog in this fight so I'll just wait and see what eventually comes out.

----------


## Smitty

> .
> Do you even know any history of how and why these clubs formed??


PTSD from WW2 had a lot to do with it originally.

After that they pretty much became a gathering place for the more violent aspect of societies misfits.

----------


## RonPaulIsGreat

How come the bikers haven't retaliated, I thought that was what being a biker was all about. Brotherhood, but their brothers are dead on a slab, killed by the police, and no retaliation.

----------


## Smitty

> .
> Do you even know any history of how and why these clubs formed??


PTSD from WW2 had a lot to do with it originally.

After that they pretty much became a gathering place for the more violent aspect of societies misfits.

----------


## Carlybee

> How come the bikers haven't retaliated, I thought that was what being a biker was all about. Brotherhood, but their brothers are dead on a slab, killed by the police, and no retaliation.


They won't do anything when it's expected.

----------


## RonPaulIsGreat

> They won't do anything when it's expected.


I thought they were all about confronting your enemies face to face like a men. Guess not.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Post these lies, conspiracy theories, blind hatred, and where I have twisted your words.
> 
> I claim that you indentify with the law enforcement brotherhood, since you were, by your own admission, once part of that.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it is true, it's also true, and I have stated many times, that *most* encounters with cops, will go smoothly as well.
> 
> I am looking, not at the percentages, but at the gruesome results of when one of those encounters *do* go sideways: severe injury, death, prison and execution are some of the possibilities.
> ...


The vast majority of syphilis cases do not end in death or insanity either.  Doesn't mean I'm rushing out the door to go and get syphilis.

(in case the medium of text does not translate my intent, this was a statement of agreement with you)

----------


## pcosmar

> PTSD from WW2 had a lot to do with it originally.
> 
> After that they pretty much became a gathering place for the more violent aspect of societies misfits.


More proof that you don't know $#@!.






> Barney Peterson, an opportunistic photographer from the San Francisco Chronicle, saw the potential for some vicarious titillation as the bikers enjoyed themselves. He staged an ominous photograph with an unknown drunk (not a club member) on a motorcycle surrounded by broken beer bottles. The photo never ran in the Chronicle but Peterson managed to get it onto page 31 of the July 21, 1947, edition of the popular Life magazine. When the issue hit the stands, the nation was greeted by a disturbing full page photo accompanied by the screaming caption: “Cyclist’s Holiday: He and his friends terrorize a town.”


- See more at: http://www.bikernet.com/pages/Hollis....6eXpJWkq.dpuf

----------


## Smitty

> More proof that you don't know $#@!.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - See more at: http://www.bikernet.com/pages/Hollis....6eXpJWkq.dpuf


Blow on your thumb until you eyes bug out and try not to be an idiot.

http://ijms.nova.edu/November2005/IJ...l.Dulaney.html

This where they came from.

*Formative Period: 1945-1947*

_The end of World War II saw young men returning from combat in droves. Many found the transition back to a peaceful civilian life a more monotonous chore than they could handle. Some combat vets were trained in riding motorcycles, specifically Harleys and Indians, while serving overseas. Other servicemen who weren’t officially trained in the operation of military motorcycles would simply commandeer motorcycles and ride them about in order to facilitate much needed relief from the stress of armed conflict. Some who didn’t have experience with motorcycles during the war did manage to work their way up to master-level partiers (Ciacchi, Reynolds). Be they Army Air Corps flight crews, Seamen, Infantrymen, Airborne or Marines, the one constant thread that was sewn throughout their uniforms was the ubiquitous post-mission celebration. Many WWII veterans formed strong bonds with one another, relationships that transcended wartime, which likely began during basic training where men were forced into seemingly impossible and highly stressful situations in order to expedite the formation of an exceptionally high degree of interdependence. During actual combat, men became brothers-in-arms through the horrific experiences of witnessing members of their unit being killed and wounded, they themselves being wounded, killing enemy soldiers, and other atrocities of war (Ciacchi; Barger, et al; Reynolds). 

Upon their successful return from combat missions, marines, airmen, soldiers and sailors retired to the nearest drinking establishment in an attempt to drown the memories of battle with booze, to heal the scars of armed conflict with laughter, and to try and feel human again, if only for a short while. These men became brothers born of warfare, atrocity, and death, a kinship that runs deeper than blood relations. It is also important to consider the ages of these men: the average age of WWII servicemen was only 26 (Kolb). Many returning combat vets reported feelings of restlessness and a general malaise (Kolb); their pre-war personalities had been forever changed. These men were likely experiencing varying degrees of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), a psychological diagnosis that wasn’t officially recognized until 1980._

----------


## Origanalist

Lol, I see Smitty is still trying to tell us who the "good" bikers and the "bad" bikers are. Oh, and anybody that doesn't agree with you is still in their mammy's basement, amirite?

Utter fail, but go ahead, keep making a complete fool of yourself.

----------


## Smitty

> Lol, I see Smitty is still trying to tell us who the "good" bikers and the "bad" bikers are. Oh, and anybody that doesn't agree with you is still in their mammy's basement, amirite?
> 
> Utter fail, but go ahead, keep making a complete fool of yourself.


Nah,...I ain't tryin' to tell anybody anything.

Anybody past 14 years old who still believes that outlaw bikers are their brothers in liberty is way past being told any damn thing.

,...buncha fuggin' idiots is what you are,...and you're a big reason why the liberty movement has trouble getting serious traction.

You stupid sumbitches want to glorify looters, arsonists, and outlaw motorcycle gangs as the harbingers
of liberty.

Do freedom a favor and just go the $#@! away.

----------


## Carlybee

> I thought they were all about confronting your enemies face to face like a men. Guess not.


Would you if you knew every LE in the state was just waiting for you to give them a reason to enact another Waco scenario?

----------


## Smitty

I'm tellin' you what,...I step outta here for 3-4 years,...come back and there's nothing left but fuggin *idiots*.

It's sad,...it's really fuggin' sad.

I hope Ron Paul never looks in here.

He put himself out on a limb to say what he said,..and *this* is what he got for it.

It's a damn shame.

----------


## Carlybee

> I'm tellin' you what,...I step outta here for 3-4 years,...come back and there's nothing left but fuggin *idiots*.
> 
> It's sad,...it's really fuggin' sad.
> 
> I hope Ron Paul never looks in here.
> 
> He put himself out on a limb to say what he said,..and *this* is what he got for it.
> 
> It's a damn shame.


Don't let the door hit ya....last I heard, thread participation is voluntary.  No one is forcing you to engage.

----------


## Anti Federalist

If this plays out like it is looking like it might, do you honestly think Ron Paul is going to be in favor of police opening fire with automatic weapons on a crowd of people, killing and injuring dozens of them?

Now that I think about it, I think you're the guy who thought the cops should have done just that in Baltimore.

Yeah, yer a real friend of liberty.




> I'm tellin' you what,...I step outta here for 3-4 years,...come back and there's nothing left but fuggin *idiots*.
> 
> It's sad,...it's really fuggin' sad.
> 
> I hope Ron Paul never looks in here.
> 
> He put himself out on a limb to say what he said,..and *this* is what he got for it.
> 
> It's a damn shame.

----------


## Smitty

> If this plays out like it is looking like it might, do you honestly think Ron Paul is going to be in favor of police opening fire with automatic weapons on a crowd of people, killing and injuring dozens of them?
> 
> Now that I think about it, I think you're the guy who thought the cops should have done just that in Baltimore.
> 
> Yeah, yer a real friend of liberty.



I suspect that Ron Paul has lived in the world long enough to know better than to get himself involved in the outlaw biker idiocy.

There's much bigger issues that need to be addressed,....and they don't involve sucking up to halfwit cretins.

----------


## pcosmar

> I hope Ron Paul never looks in here.


You really don't know much about Ron Paul do you..



> * America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government.* Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.


You should read my sig line,, and maybe more of his writings.

----------


## Root

> You really don't know much about Ron Paul do you..
> 
> 
> You should read my sig line,, and maybe more of his writings.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to pcosmar again.

----------


## Smitty

> You really don't know much about Ron Paul do you..
> 
> 
> You should read my sig line,, and maybe more of his writings.


Yeah, yeah, yeah,... listen,...I've seen how you've established yourself as the baddest muhfugger on here,..with you prison credentials and whatnot,...

,...but excuse the fug outta me if I'm not impressed,....

I'm not impressed with your prison credentials,..and I'm not impressed with the juvenile "neg rep" that you stuck on me.

Personally,..I think you're a poser.

Ex cons don't play the neg rep game.

----------


## CPUd

Ron Paul rides with his colors, too:

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I suspect that Ron Paul has lived in the world long enough to know better than to get himself involved in the outlaw biker idiocy.
> 
> There's much bigger issues that need to be addressed,....and they don't involve sucking up to halfwit cretins.


Yes, there are.

This is not about "idiot outlaw bikers" any more than Baltimore was about "thuggish ******s" or Waco was about "perverted cultists" or Ruby Ridge was about "white cracker seperatists".

This is about what an increasingly militarized police force, and the government it protects, does to citizens it feels are a "threat".

I submit nothing could be *more* important.

----------


## pcosmar

> Ex cons don't play the neg rep game.


Bull$#@!.
I neg rep trolls all the time..

Here are some of your Psychopaths.. Some are imprisoned presently.. It was one of the many Clubs present.




http://www.honorboundmm.ag.org/?Targ...1-FD247CECA2D5

The Leatherneck MC was also there,

Just found an interesting piece on their FB page ,

https://www.facebook.com/txleathernecks.mc

----------


## Carlybee

> Go play with your Barbie Doll.


Wow...you are real mature.

----------


## CCTelander

> Yes, there are.
> 
> This is not about "idiot outlaw bikers" any more than Baltimore was about "thuggish ******s" or Waco was about "perverted cultists" or Ruby Ridge was about "white cracker seperatists".
> 
> This is about what an increasingly militarized police force, and the government it protects, does to citizens it feels are a "threat".
> 
> I submit nothing could be *more* important.



The above post cannot be +repped too much.

And it should NEVER be forgotten that it takes VERY LITTLE for the "authorities" to shift their focus from bikers and street thugs to political dissidents. EVERYBODY on this forum is ALREADY considered a threat anyway. 

But hey, that's probably just another paranoid conspiracy theory. Nothing to be concerned about.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Somebody in this thread was freaking out over a NAZI reference.

All is takes is ten degrees of "mission creep" to go from what we have now, to concentration camps and pograms.

You and I both know what this country will turn into 24 hours after we wake up to the news that "terrorists" have killed 30,000 people in Chicago.

Or 300,000 in LA.

Or 3 million in Houston.





> The above post cannot be +repped too much.
> 
> And it should NEVER be forgotten that it takes VERY LITTLE for the "authorities" to shift their focus from bikers and street thugs to political dissidents. EVERYBODY on this forum is ALREADY considered a threat anyway. 
> 
> But hey, that's probably just another paranoid conspiracy theory. Nothing to be concerned about.

----------


## Schifference

It was a well known fact by all bikers, citizens and yes, WACO police (which includes FEDS) that the COC meeting would be held on Sunday. All of the above groups, 1%'s, MC's and Biker Orgs attend these meetings. Again the COC is a way to let others know about upcoming legislation, events & rides as well as discuss Patch issues. (Patches are the symbols that each group wears on their leathers, letting others know what group they represent)

There are several "theories" floating around ~ Let's get rid of the first one, it was NOT a fight over a parking space! Bikers rarely if ever fight over a freaking parking space! They don't need to, they can fit 2-3 bikes per space!

The second we hear is that it started in the bathroom, that could be the case as per other reports there was an issue that occurred. However, the weekend before the planned COC meeting there was an issue that may have spilled over to the fight that occurred. BUT the fight broke our PRIOR to meeting time.

What we DO know is that the place was already surrounded by FEDS, WACO Police and ATF LONG before any biker showed up! WHY were they there? Literally HUNDREDS of biker meetings between the various 1%, MC's and Org's had met there in the past ....ALL peacefully! The PD states it was because of the dispute the previous week. HOWEVER, there was a fight that started inside Twin Peaks and made it's way outside! Those fighting had KNIVES ...NOT GUNS when they took the fight outside.

NO GUNS were shown as the fight made it outside from our understanding, but that is when the police started firing. WE DO NOT know if someone pulled out a gun from within the groups OR if the police were just too quick on their draw! Either way, ALMOST all shots fired came from police...not the ones fighting. ***again this is from we are getting from those there***

HERE IS OUR TAKE ON IT ALL:

WACO PD have not been very friendly towards bikers and the FEDS TOTALLY despise Bikers! Why? Because we are not afraid of them or their agenda! We are a threat to them! Remember folks we were able to organize in 24 days 800,000 -1.2 million bikers to DC! We did it WITHOUT their permission or support! They even SHUT DOWN the traffic cams...had the news NOT flown over the scene there would have been NO proof that we rode! Yes, folks, like it or not even 1%'s rode with us! They set aside their territories and rode peacefully! JUST like they do at ALL COC meetings!

Bikers stand up to them, to their Christian hate, their muslim agenda and whatever else they want to throw at us! BIKERS ARE PRESENTLY THE BACKBONE of PATRIOT AMERICA! WHAT BETTER WAY TO BRING THEM DOWN THAN WITH BAD PRESS SUCH AS THIS!

OUR question to WACO PD & FEDS ~

WHO's bullets killed the 9 who died and those taken to the hospital?

Where is all the video from that surrounds the TWIN PEAKS and all the other businesses?

WHY have no charges been filed yet EACH of those in custody have a $1,000,000 bond?

WHY were those who had LEGAL carry permits arrested?

WHY are so many being held in jail that do not have records, were not part of the OMG's they (PD) were targeting?

WHY are ALL BIKES of those in jail being confiscated via Civil Forfeiture? Civil forfeiture is supposed to occur if someone is found GUILTY of a crime while that "property" was in use or used to commit the crime!

WHY are bikers that had NO association with their targets being held on $1,000,000 bond? MANY are Christian Bikers and Veteran Bikers who committed no crime other than being on the scene?

Now as a whole this group does NOT condone police bashing, FED bashing YES....but WACO PD seems to be part of the FED agenda! So America, ask yourselves this...WHEN SHTF (and it will) WHO do you want on YOUR side? BIKERS OR FEDS? We KNOW where the FEDS stand and we KNOW how much they hate bikers!

LAST NOTE: There was NEVER EVER any threats made to WACO PD! That was TOTALLY made up!

https://www.facebook.com/txleathernecks.mc

----------


## Smitty

> Bull$#@!.
> I neg rep trolls all the time..
> 
> Here are some of your Psychopaths.. Some are imprisoned presently.. It was one of the many Clubs present.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.honorboundmm.ag.org/?Targ...1-FD247CECA2D5
> ...


I'm not trolling anybody.

Lots of people on here run their yap and say stupid $#@!.

I tell 'em what I think about it.

If it chaps their ass,...they need to go to the store and buy some Vicks Salve to rub on it.

----------


## moostraks

> What?  I was addressing a specific comment from a specific person, he came in  and said something about HIS situation which was completely different.  Wrongful convictions occur because of prosecutors, judges, and your own  fellow citizens sitting on juries, the arresting officer is not the defining factor in a  conviction, oh, but let me guess, you're going to tell me they plant all  kinds of evidence right, which, while it does happen it's certainly not  the reason most people are in prison...
> 
> I'm all for discussion, and it's funny you throw such a thing at me  when nearly every reply people have made to me have been absurd  exaggerations and twisting of my words. Awareness is fine, but lies,  blind hatred, and conspiracy theories just muddy the waters and are  counter-productive...


Irony was these coming in the same post. Do you listen to yourself? Did you not just twist what I said, putting words in my mouth I never said? Yet when you do it then it is not muddying the water nor counter productive?

As for the post I came in on, when you post on the forum it is up for discussion, especially when you begin with "all of you" and then broad brush paint anyone involved in the discussion to that point. If you want it to be to one specific person then why not take it private? When you laid down on presence with your claims without evidence that "just muddy the waters" then you shouldn't be surprised when others read it and preemptively give you their background to set the record straight before you start in on them. Instead you dug in and continue to evidence your own bias and rudeness toward others while complaining about having your own words twisted.

----------


## CCTelander

> Somebody in this thread was freaking out over a NAZI reference.
> 
> All is takes is ten degrees of "mission creep" to go from what we have now, to concentration camps and pograms.
> 
> You and I both know what this country will turn into 24 hours after we wake up to the news that "terrorists" have killed 30,000 people in Chicago.
> 
> Or 300,000 in LA.
> 
> Or 3 million in Houston.



And the copsuckers would STILL be making rationalizations and excuses.

I feel VERY old and weary.

----------


## HankRicther12

> What, you think I have never met, known, interacted or worked with cops before?
> 
> You have no particular insight beyond what everybody else has.


Apparently I do because what people say here is nonsense.




> So you are saying that, instead of authoritarian $#@!s, they are cynical and lazy instead.
> 
> Somehow, that is worse, and lends *more* credibility to the "there should be no full time cops" argument.


Maybe it's worse, maybe not, as for no cops, I'll aks you the same I ask everyone - what's your alternative?





> This has happened many times before, the 1968 Democratic convention in  Chicago, the WTO riots in Seattle, the Massacre in Waco over 20 years  ago, the 1993 WTC bombing, the MOVE bombing...these are just few right  off the top of my head, where cops instigated, caused, promoted, or  otherwise made a bad situation worse by their actions or presence.


First off, many of those things were not local cops, they were federal agents, 2nd while some of it is true, you can't prove all of those things, and 3rd trying to say that just because some cops did something wrong in a completely separate incident is proof of guilt of these totally different cops in a totally different situation is the definition of faulty reasoning.




> Well, start with doing what I do and contribute to the Innocence  Project, and get an eyefull of the incidents where innocent people ended  up on death row because of crooked cops and prosecutors.


I don't generally donate or get involved in organizations as many times they will do things I don't agree with, I take things on a case by case basis, you show me a particular case, let me look at all the evidence, if I feel he/she is innocent and they need help with their legal fees I will send them some money. 





> So, what is it, exactly, that you are outraged at?


Taxes, Patriot Act, 2012 NDAA, public schools, Dep of Ed, FEMA, TSA, Medicare, SS, Iraq, Afghanistan..our FP in general, Illegal Aliens and our wide open border, NAFTA, Food Stamps, Section 8 Housing, the Drug War....shall I go on?

----------


## HankRicther12

> Irony was these coming in the same post. Do you listen to yourself? Did you not just twist what I said, putting words in my mouth I never said? Yet when you do it then it is not muddying the water nor counter productive?
> 
> As for the post I came in on, when you post on the forum it is up for discussion, especially when you begin with "all of you" and then broad brush paint anyone involved in the discussion to that point. If you want it to be to one specific person then why not take it private? When you laid down on presence with your claims without evidence that "just muddy the waters" then you shouldn't be surprised when others read it and preemptively give you their background to set the record straight before you start in on them. Instead you dug in and continue to evidence your own bias and rudeness toward others while complaining about having your own words twisted.


I posted the persons quote, their name, and replied to them and their quote, yes, this forum is public, but are you seriously saying that means we cannot specifically address a statement directed at us by one individual? That's gonna get confusing.




> And the copsuckers would STILL be making rationalizations and excuses.
> 
> I feel VERY old and weary.


Hmmmm, "copsuckers"...that's kinda like when leftists say "racist" or "sexist" or "homophobic", or when righties say "anti-semitic" or "isolationist", "blame America" just a sorry attempt to avoid discussion because you have no real argument.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Taxes, Patriot Act, 2012 NDAA, public schools, Dep of Ed, FEMA, TSA, Medicare, SS, Iraq, Afghanistan..our FP in general, Illegal Aliens and our wide open border, NAFTA, Food Stamps, Section 8 Housing, the Drug War....shall I go on?


And who do you suppose is the enforcement arm for all of that?

If we did not have a standing army of over a million cops, most, if not all of that could be, well, ignored.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Apparently I do *because what people say here is nonsense*.


So you say. I say different.




> Maybe it's worse, maybe not, as for no cops, I'll aks you the same I ask everyone - what's your alternative?


Volunteer citizen patrols, citizen militias, lawfully deputized _posses'_, "term limits" on cop's time in service, private security not operating under "qualified immunity", there are many, many options and variations of the above.




> First off, many of those things were not local cops, they were federal agents, 2nd while some of it is true, you can't prove all of those things, and 3rd trying to say that just because some cops did something wrong in a completely separate incident is proof of guilt of these totally different cops in a totally different situation is the definition of faulty reasoning.


Feds, local, county, state, supranational, regulatory, $#@!, there are so many cops running around anymore that I can hardly tell them apart.

I am not trying to prove guilt or innocence.

I am showing precedent, I am pointing out that such a notion, (that cops instigated and caused this event to take place) is *not* a far fetched notion that only occurs in fantasy, but, in fact, is a very real possibility that has occured many times in the past. 




> I don't generally donate or get involved in organizations as many times they will do things I don't agree with, I take things on a case by case basis, you show me a particular case, let me look at all the evidence, if I feel he/she is innocent and they need help with their legal fees I will send them some money.


Start with Baby Bou Bou.

The parents are still on the hook for thousands of dollars of medical bills that the local government refuses to pay for.

----------


## HankRicther12

> And who do you suppose is the enforcement arm for all of that?
> 
> If we did not have a standing army of over a million cops, most, if not all of that could be, well, ignored.


Local cops have very little, if anything to do with any of that, don't pay your taxes, I guarantee it will not be your local police at your door. You are lumping all kinds of federal agencies in with local police, they are not the same thing, in fact many local departments around the country have been vocal and defiant of federal mandates. You might want to start looking at recent events and how leftists, the media, the President, etc are actually attacking local law enforcement because they are not beholden to the Feds, if anything the irony here is that local cops may just be one of the things standing in the way of Federal Intrusion.




> So you say. I say different.
> 
> 
> 
> Volunteer citizen patrols, citizen militias, lawfully deputized _posses'_, "term limits" on cop's time in service, private security not operating under "qualified immunity", there are many, many options and variations of the above.
> 
> 
> 
> Feds, local, county, state, supranational, regulatory, $#@!, there are so many cops running around anymore that I can hardly tell them apart.
> ...


There is absolutely nothing that will prevent any of those things from becoming corrupted, you will wind up right back where you were, maybe even worse.

None of those past incidents are proof of anything in this incident. I remain neutral until I have evidence, certainly I agree what you say is one possibility, however running around with theories and rumor is hardly the way to handle any situation or win people to your cause.

I will look into Baby Bou Bou.

----------


## presence

> As of late Tuesday, the restaurant remained a crime scene. Employees  still have not been allowed to retrieve their cars, cell phones and  other belongings.


http://news.yahoo.com/twin-peaks-wai...013656110.html

----------


## Smitty

,...and that "Cap" whistledick has showed up again,...givin' me a neg rep,..


as if I'm 'sposed to curl up in the fetal position and piss my britches.

I couldn't give a less of a $#@!, Cap.

The rep $#@! doesn't lose me one damn minnit of sleep.

,...so go own widdit,...ya sissy ass,..

neg rep fuggers, anyway,...

----------


## Smitty

Tickles me to death, actually,..

Got these idiot fuggers with their fingers on the neg rep button,...

,...fitrst time somebody chimes in with some common sense, they start hammerin' that neg rep button like Buddy Rich at then snare drum.

It's silly as hell.

be talkin' bout, "NEG REP!! NEG REP!!

lolol,....

----------


## Smitty

Where'd alla the people with a brain go to on this forum, anyway?

----------


## Smitty

,...ain't nobody left but these puckerheaded sumbitches,...

----------


## Smitty

Back in 2008 there was some good exchanges goin' on here.

Now,...it's a whistledick parade.

----------


## Proph

> Back in 2008 there was some good exchanges goin' on here.
> 
> Now,...it's a whistledick parade.


Really?  

You been whistlin' some winkeh?




> I'm tellin' you what,...I step outta here for 3-4 years,...come back and there's nothing left but fuggin *idiots*.
> 
> It's sad,...it's really fuggin' sad.
> 
> I hope Ron Paul never looks in here.
> 
> He put himself out on a limb to say what he said,..and *this* is what he got for it.
> 
> It's a damn shame.


I'm pretty sure RP would frown upon any sort of collectivism, on both sides of the argument.

----------


## Smitty

And "proph" hammers the neg rep button too!

Lemme tell ya,....liberty ain't fer pussies.

Take a stand, man,....it'll only hurt for a little while.

----------


## Smitty

Pussy ass democratic underground refugees gonna be the ruin o'this place.

----------


## Schifference

For someone that says they don't care about neg reps you sure do complain about them enough.

----------


## Smitty

Maybe,...but I've yet to give my first one.

People can say what they want to say without any backlash from me.

It's a libertarian "thing".

Some on here don't understand.

----------


## Schifference

Yes but they cannot start riding a bike at 50 & tour the country.

----------


## Origanalist

> For someone that says they don't care about neg reps you sure do complain about them enough.





> The lady doth protest too much, methinks.


///

----------


## Origanalist

> Yes but they cannot start riding a bike at 50 & tour the country.


Hey, you gotta draw the line somewhere....

----------


## Smitty

And a neg rep from schifface!

I got 'em stackin' up tonight, folks.

----------


## Smitty

> ///


You got no neg reps from me and you won't.

Say what ya want to say, guy.

I may not agree, but I'll listen.

It's the libertarian way.

----------


## Proph

> *And "proph" hammers the neg rep button too!*
> 
> Lemme tell ya,....liberty ain't fer pussies.
> 
> Take a stand, man,....it'll only hurt for a little while.


Of course I did, yer friggin' trollin'!

How did your reputation get so high to begin with?

Were you spamming to get that post count up, or just under the influence of drugs?  

Oh, Dear!  I hope you aren't targeted next!

----------


## Smitty

> Of course I did, yer friggin' trollin'!
> 
> How did your reputation get so high to begin with?
> 
> Were you spamming to get that post count up, or just under the influence of drugs?  
> 
> Oh, Dear!  I hope you aren't targeted next!


You're a neg rep commie.

Shut the fug up and go away.

----------


## CCTelander

Figured this thread could use this. To go along with all the whine.

----------


## Carlybee

> Pussy ass democratic underground refugees gonna be the ruin o'this place.



Hey are you done hijacking the thread with complaints? All you're doing is name calling. Stop being an assfetus. See I can do it too. No one is forcing you to agree with anyone's viewpoints here.

----------


## Proph

> Shut the fug up and go away.


I was thinking the same about you.

----------


## Smitty

> Hey are you done hijacking the thread with complaints?.


Nope,...not as long at the idiot faction continues to babble on.

Somebody has to take a stand against this stupid $#@!.

Stupid internet  $#@! don't cost me no sleep.

----------


## Schifference

Ever wish you were taking another 4 year sabatical from the forum? I was looking over your posts. You appear to be a pretty mean spirited individual. I think if I had to choose between your company at a social event or sitting at the Hells Angels table I would join Pete with the 1%'s.

----------


## Carlybee

> Nope,...not as long at the idiot faction continues to babble on.
> 
> Somebody has to take a stand against this stupid $#@!.
> 
> Stupid internet  $#@! don't cost me no sleep.



You can take a stand all you want but when you start name calling because apparently that's about all you're armed with, don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

----------


## Smitty

I've not seen a serious response here yet.

If somebody is a fuggin' idiot,..you just call 'em a fuggin' idiot and move along.

No sense gettin' all verbose over the matter.

----------


## Smitty

> Ever wish you were taking another 4 year sabatical from the forum? I was looking over your posts. You appear to be a pretty mean spirited individual.


Idiots get on my nerves.

What can I say?

----------


## Proph

> Nope,...not as long at the idiot faction continues to babble on.
> 
> Somebody has to take a stand against this stupid $#@!.
> 
> Stupid internet  $#@! don't cost me no sleep.


Considering you're a part of this idiot faction, the babbling will not cease?

*Maybe sleep is what you need.*

Kris Dolmeth is not your friend, friend.

----------


## Proph

> I've not seen a serious response here yet.
> 
> If somebody is a fuggin' idiot,..you just call 'em a fuggin' idiot and move along.
> 
> No sense gettin' all verbose over the matter.


You're a fuggin' idiot.

----------


## Smitty

> Considering you're a part of this idiot faction, the babbling will not cease?
> 
> *Maybe sleep is what you need.*
> 
> Kris Dolmeth is not your friend, friend.


And Sonny Barger ain't yours,...(mod edit).

----------


## Brian4Liberty

Please review the Site Guidelines everyone...




> Usage Guidelines
> In order to best achieve our sites Mission Statement certain site Usage Guidelines must be followed. There are seven key point to the guidelines, as listed below, with clarifying detail and enumerated specifics for each. In some cases there is even more elaborate explanations.
> 
> 1) Operate with ethically sound principles.
>  Be honest and truthful.
>  Respect others life, liberty and property.
>  Respect others' copyrights, intellectual property and contracts, per legal standards. Limit fair-use posting of copyright material to the lesser of four paragraphs or a quarter of the writing.
>  Work to promote a peaceful, freedom loving, compassionate society.
> * Posts should not promote negativity in collectivist mindsets that view humans as members of groups rather than individuals. Such forms of collectivism include sexism, racism, antisemitism; they will not be tolerated here.*
> ...

----------


## Proph

> Please review the Site Guidelines everyone...


He's intoxicated by some sort of substance, probably crystalmeth.

Please, forgive him.  (And me!  For reciprocating his behavior!)

----------


## Smitty

He disagrees with me!

He's a crankhead!

Ban him,...quick!

*rolling eyes*

----------


## Smitty

There's some leftist whiffenpoofs that need to be run off from this place. That's fa' *damn* shure.

But I'm not one of them.

Ban me,..the problem abides.

,..but do what ya want.

I'm a bit plain spoken,...and I know that makes a stir,..but,...

It is what it is.

----------


## Proph

> He disagrees with me!
> 
> He's a crankhead!
> 
> Ban him,...quick!
> 
> *rolling eyes*


So, reading comprehension skills *do* appear to be the problem!

----------


## Smitty

,...and I ain't the problem.

that's right,.....that's right,...

----------


## Smitty

> So, reading comprehension skills *do* appear to be the problem!


No,...you're really not complex enough to give me comprehension problems,

You pretty much right in there with "Green Eggs and Ham"

----------


## devil21

What the hell happened to this thread?  Someone musta struck a serious nerve.  Looks like thread sliding 101.

----------


## Smitty

Well,...basically I opined that outlaw bikers had the potential to be $#@!s.

Then the pekkerhead stampede ensued.

So,...the rest of the thread was dedicated to warding off the pekkerhead stampede.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> What the hell happened to this thread?  Someone musta struck a serious nerve.  Looks like thread sliding 101.


Let me get it back on track.

*False Flags, Biker Gangs, and the PATCON Legacy*

William Norman Grigg

https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog...patcon-legacy/

*The bloody incident at Waco’s Twin Peaks restaurant was not a “biker shootout.” At present there is no evidence that any of the nine victims were killed by fellow bikers, rather than being “taken out” by the scores of police — including snipers — who had effectively turned the parking lot into a kill zone.* 

The Twin Peaks Massacre has prompted the predictable outpouring of state-centered outrage over the purported threat posed by Outlaw Motorcycle Clubs (OMCs). Buried beneath the blizzard of re-purposed official press releases is a critical disclosure made by former FBI undercover operative John Matthews: During the 1990s, as part of the FBI’s PATCON (Patriot Conspiracy) operation, Matthews and his handler, Donald Jarrett, sold illegally converted full-auto machine guns to narcotics-dealing motorcycle gangs. (I first reported about this in early March.) This was done through one of the firearms stores later forced by the ATF into participating in the “Fast & Furious” gun-walking scandal, in which firearms of that kind were provided to operatives of Mexican criminal cartels.

“As we talk of gun control … over the years [of] how many cases of sporterized SKS, AK47s, and SKSs were sold to groups and case after case of ammo for them all with the blessings of the FBI & ATF with no paper work,” Matthews wrote in a November 8, 2014 email (lightly edited here for spelling and grammar). “Also let’s not forget the AR15s, they were made full auto from the Lone Wolf gun store back in the 90s by a guy brought in by the FBI for me to put in place. Those guns went to bikers who were sell[ing] drugs on the border. Those drugs were [believed] to be coming in from China.”

In March 2013 correspondence with Jarrett, Matthews referred to the David Mann, the dealer brought in by the FBI to broker the firearms transaction with the biker gang. 

“I [would] pick him up in Payson, AZ on our way up to Surplus & Stuff in Snowflake … and met with a guy name[d] Tim,” Matthews recalled in a March 28, 2013 email to Jarrett. “He [would] show him his weapons that he was making and how he could make them anything they wanted. Then from there we took a trip up to where the guy [kept] the tractors that we were thinking the dope was coming in from.”

*The tractors were apparently being used as part of an international narcotics smuggling operation.*

During the trip recalled by Matthews, he and David Mann met with another individual who “ran the church and we [thought was] selling the drugs to the bikers. We were going to get David to sell weapons too [sic] them. This trip was where [I] got David in with this [sic] guys so I could move on. Does this sound right to you[?] Also have more info on him and [meetings] at gun store (Lone Wolf) and other places like Scottsdale, before we turn[ed] him loose.” 

“Yes, that sounds absolutely correct about David,” Jarrett replied the following day. “I only introduced you to one guy that work[ed] with guns, and that was David.”

*On March 2 I sent a letter to the Justice Department’s Office of Inspector General requesting an investigation of Matthews’ confirmed claims about the FBI’s role in arming biker gangs. A week later I received an official reply that tacitly validated those claims while dismissing them as inconsequential: “The Investigations Division of the Office of the Inspector General has thoroughly reviewed your allegations and concluded that the issues raised do not warrant an investigation by this office.”* 

Salt Lake City attorney Jesse Trentadue, who has been investigating the death of his brother Kenneth in FBI custody following the 1995, following the 1995 Oklahoma City Bombing, has been responsible for nearly all of the key disclosures regarding the PATCON program. This was an effort by the FBI to infiltrate so-called Radical Right groups with informants and provocateurs. In a telephone interview, Trentadue told me that he firmly believes that there is a connection between the PATCON-related FBI initiative to arm biker gangs, and the bloodshed in Waco over the weekend.

*“At the very least, we’re dealing with part of the legacy of PATCON,” Trentadue declared.* 

PATCON wasn’t the FBI’s only means of infiltrating OMCs. In 2004, James “Pagan Ronnie” Howerton, a prominent member of the Pagans OMC and a convicted murderer, was recruited by the FBI. He eventually became the club’s sergeant-at-arms. Five years later, the Feds breathlessly announced that with the help of their undercover asset they had compiled a massive indictment against the Pagans as an interstate criminal conspiracy. That bloated indictment eventually deflated into a small number of relatively trivial charges against specific members of the club. The interstate “criminal enterprise” was reduced to the accusation that the Pagans had committed a federal offense by running a raffle. 

*The only notable violent crime arising from the federal investigation of the Pagans was the police murder of Iraq combat veteran Derek Hale, who was tasered a dozen times and then murdered, execution-style, by Lt. William Brown of the Wilmington, Delaware Police Department. Hale, who was killed in front of the wife and children of a friend from the club, had no criminal record, nor was he a criminal suspect. He died because the State’s officially licensed gang decided to wage an indiscriminate war on the motorcycle club to which he belonged — which, in all probability, is what happened in Waco over the weekend.*

----------


## Occam's Banana

> Yes, there are.
> 
> This is not about "idiot outlaw bikers" any more than Baltimore was about "thuggish ******s" or Waco was about "perverted cultists" or Ruby Ridge was about "white cracker seperatists".
> 
> This is about what an increasingly militarized police force, and the government it protects, does to citizens it feels are a "threat".
> 
> I submit nothing could be *more* important.


Hammer, meet nail-head. Nail-head, hammer ...

----------


## Origanalist

> You got no neg reps from me and you won't.
> 
> Say what ya want to say, guy.
> 
> I may not agree, but I'll listen.
> 
> It's the libertarian way.


The /// is only there because if you don't leave three symbols outside of a quote you can't post.

----------


## Origanalist

> Hammer, meet nail-head. Nail-head, hammer ...


Hammer and tongs.....?

----------


## pcosmar

> What the hell happened to this thread?  Someone musta struck a serious nerve.  Looks like thread sliding 101.


Bingo.
We have an Authoritarian with no concept of Liberty derailing the thread in defense of Authoritarianism.

Not all that uncommon here lately.

----------


## tod evans

> Bingo.
> We have an Authoritarian with no concept of Liberty derailing the thread in defense of Authoritarianism.
> 
> Not all that uncommon here lately.


There's a couple of 'em.....

Wonder if their supervisor will buy donuts for their cubicle this morning....

----------


## pcosmar

> Let me get it back on track.
> 
> *False Flags, Biker Gangs, and the PATCON Legacy*
> [/B]


Grigg is great as usual..

and on that same track.. Ruby Ridge was another such.. undercover Agent coercing someone to Saw off a shotgun,, for an undercover agent posing as a gang member.

Hutaree also.. Undercover Agent was the Bomb Maker.

World trade Center Bombing,, Undercover supplied Plans, location, and explosives. There would have been no bombing at all if not for Fed instigators.

This seems to be a repeated pattern.

The only criminals were the Cops..

----------


## Carlybee

//




> Restaurant security video reviewed exclusively by The Associated Press showed only one of the dozens of bikers recorded was seen firing a gun from the patio of the Twin Peaks restaurant where nine people were killed.

----------


## pcosmar

> //


So one person returned fire AFTER the shooting started.. 

I had seen other reports of the security Video.. Folks (likely CCW holders) drew weapons after the shooting started..
They also reported that Bikers were shielding and aiding other patrons inside the Bar. And there was NO fight inside the Bar.. the shooting came from outside.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

The leftist media is making a grave mistake by ignoring this story.

----------


## SpiritOf1776_J4

> That sounds real nice, but since the fedgov started printing funny money like it's going out of style anyway, and giving it away in the form of nifty, wazoo-looking military equipment so crappy that the wealthiest military in history won't buy it, I haven't seen any evidence that you can separate the locals and the feds with a crowbar.


The amount of initial lying is kindof distressing.  I've noticed lately that the fact checking by the press is even less then it was 15 years ago.

When I heard about the shootings, I immediately thought about the cops.  As I got more news afterwards, usually buried in the middle of the story without a blink of inquiry, tended to confirm my worse suspicions.

Oh, and there were plainclothes policemen inside.  And, we had informers working, and we may have shot a few and oh, we had a swat team outside before anything happened, oh 10 of them - 9 people shot.

It just goes on and on.  And now the restaurant video shows there was no fight inside, just people ducking the gun shots.  So where's the motive now?

And disturbingly, a memo released to police that sounds like a carbon copy of the one in baltimore - "the biker gangs (clubs) have put the green light on killing police", only there it was gangs (high school kids) were going to kill cops.  Otherwise, they're the same.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

Waco Revisionism: Police Retract ‘1,000 Weapons’ Claim, 4 of Dead Had No Texas Criminal Records
by Brandon Darby and Lee Stranahan - 21 May 2015




> Several facts have surfaced that call into question the initial accounts of the Waco Police Department on Sunday’s deadly shooting at a motorcycle rights meeting. Waco police released information Wednesday morning that “1,000 weapons” had been found at the scene of Sunday’s shooting that left nine dead, but after the story received wide exposure they significantly revised that estimate down and stated, “We stand corrected.” In addition, four of the nine dead had no criminal records in Texas, according to the Associated Press (AP).
> ...
> The retraction of the claim comes on the heels of information surfacing that the Waco Police Department used a wide net in the arrests and apparently arrested many in an organized political meeting — a meeting police initially described as being solely composed of criminals intent on violence. The AP also reported information that could be unfavorable to the initial police narrative that media largely parroted, namely that a video of the altercation showed most of the present bikers running from the shooting and that four of the nine dead had no criminal records in Texas.
> ...
> http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/...minal-records/

----------


## navy-vet

> Yes Pete we get it. The police LIE. Keep drilling that because we're all too stupid to have gotten the first 500 times you said it. I just said I am trying to get some info outside of the media which means regardless of my contact's knowledge of the dynamic between the clubs, there may be some info from eyewitnesses about what went down inside and out. Stop shooting the messenger.  I will take the word of someone who has heard it firsthand over someone who is reading and interpreting from the internet. For all we know one of the club members could have been a snitch and helped facilitate this thing going down. There's some very bad blood in some quarters. That's why I'm trying to find out, which isn't that easy because these people don't generally talk about club business to outsiders. FYI..and I hate to burst your bubble but yes some of them are engaged in criminal activity so stop trying to make them all sound like little angels...it's irrelevant to what happened here, but it is a fact and I know of someone who was murdered in cold blood by some and it was a planned hit, so you need to stop putting that narrative out there. The big majority are okay, but not all and that's a fact. I grew up in Texas. I know some of the history. Does that excuse what went down? Of course not. It's a planned round up that has been going on and off for years. This one was just more deadly, public and made the news.


Yes, please do Carly.
I would have given you another +rep but I'm out....

----------


## Carlybee

> Yes, please do Carly.
> I would have given you another +rep but I'm out....


What ive managed to glean is that yes there was a potential powder keg inside due to one club showing up uninvited and unwelcome due to territorial and other disputes. Personally I think claiming a state as ones territory is silly but hey. There were a couple of incidents leading up to the meeting that made the one club unwelcome but I'm not getting into that. One of the incidents happened in my hometown. Beyond that, there is some consensus that most of the victims were shot point plank in the head which sounds like someone had a bead on them with a scope and that the initial "scuffle" happened outside or was taken outside.

----------


## devil21

> What ive managed to glean is that yes there was a potential powder keg inside due to one club showing up uninvited and unwelcome due to territorial and other disputes. Personally I think claiming a state as ones territory is silly but hey. There were a couple of incidents leading up to the meeting that made the one club unwelcome but I'm not getting into that. One of the incidents happened in my hometown. Beyond that, there is some consensus that most of the victims were shot point plank in the head which sounds like someone had a bead on them with a scope and that the initial "scuffle" happened outside or was taken outside.


That definitely sounds like targeted assassinations then.  I've seen 'insiders' (don't ask) warn that when/if targeted assassinations start, it will be from snipers from 100 yards, so be careful of people trying to coerce you into situations where you're exposed and killings can be plausibly covered up as something else entirely.

----------


## navy-vet

> What ive managed to glean is that yes there was a potential powder keg inside due to one club showing up uninvited and unwelcome due to territorial and other disputes. Personally I think claiming a state as ones territory is silly but hey. There were a couple of incidents leading up to the meeting that made the one club unwelcome but I'm not getting into that. One of the incidents happened in my hometown. Beyond that, there is some consensus that most of the victims were shot point plank in the head which sounds like someone had a bead on them with a scope and that the initial "scuffle" happened outside or was taken outside.


Thank's for the info. It sounds like sniper shots or some one capping up close and personal to me...

----------


## pcosmar

> Thank's for the info. It sounds like sniper shots or some one capping up close and personal to me...


No bullet casings near any of the dead.

The one Bandido was legally carrying.. Dead next to his fallen bike.. Gun never drawn.. NO Criminal History.. Decorated Vet.

8 Cossacks dead (also mostly head wounds) a couple with very minor criminal history, most with none.

Many Cossacks inside the Bar at the time,, arrested with everyone else..  No fights inside the bar.

There are many photos of folks with Cossack colors. As well as many other Club Colors. All cooperating with police in the aftermath.

This was a gathering promoted by the TXCOC&I,, it is for and about Motorcycle Rights and political action on that front. All Motorcyclists are welcome.

I CAN FIND NO INFORMATION on any Motorcycle sites, TxCoC&I sites or anywhere that the Cossacks MC were unwelcome.


We are led to believe that the Cossacks showed up and started trouble,, 

Despite an armored vehicle in plain view,, an Armored up SWAT unit and several Marked police cars plainly visible.

And despite the Cossack presence inside the Bar (peacefully) .

There is a whole lot that stinks with this story.

----------


## Carlybee

> No bullet casings near any of the dead.
> 
> The one Bandido was legally carrying.. Dead next to his fallen bike.. Gun never drawn.. NO Criminal History.. Decorated Vet.
> 
> 8 Cossacks dead (also mostly head wounds) a couple with very minor criminal history, most with none.
> 
> Many Cossacks inside the Bar at the time,, arrested with everyone else..  No fights inside the bar.
> 
> There are many photos of folks with Cossack colors. As well as many other Club Colors. All cooperating with police in the aftermath.
> ...


Just going by what I was told by someone who knows more about it than we do and there is very bad blood between the Cossacks & Bandidos in Texas that is ongoing due to what amounts to a turf challenge, along with some other things involving unwarranted acts of violence.  That may have nothing to do with this but it is my understanding they were not invited.  If I hear differently I will be the first to say so.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> That definitely sounds like targeted assassinations then.  I've seen 'insiders' (don't ask) warn that when/if targeted assassinations start, it will be from snipers from 100 yards, so be careful of people trying to coerce you into situations where you're exposed and killings can be plausibly covered up as something else entirely.


I remember all the oohing and aahing about the DC sniper taking head shots at 100 yards. I could teach Michael J Fox to make headshots at 100 yards. A 500 yard headshot is mildly impressive. A 100 yard headshot is eyeroll stuff. Then again, these are cops we are talking about here. They shoot worse than Air Force cooks.

----------


## Carlybee

> I remember all the oohing and aahing about the DC sniper taking head shots at 100 yards. I could teach Michael J Fox to make headshots at 100 yards. A 500 yard headshot is mildly impressive. A 100 yard headshot is eyeroll stuff. Then again, these are cops we are talking about here. They shoot worse than Air Force cooks.


Unless they are cops who trained as snipers.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Unless they are cops who trained as snipers.


If they want me to take them seriously as 'snipers,' then they should be talking 300 yard head shots. Calling a 100 yard headshot 'sniper' stuff is like calling a third grader's two paragraph essay 'fine literature.'  One hundred yard headshot is just basic elementary shooting. Hell, give me a good bit of glass on a sub MOA rifle and I can put a round through the eyeball without disturbing the eyelid at 100 dam yards.

----------


## Carlybee

> If they want me to take them seriously as 'snipers,' then they should be talking 300 yard head shots. Calling a 100 yard headshot 'sniper' stuff is like calling a third grader's two paragraph essay 'fine literature.'  One hundred yard headshot is just basic elementary shooting. Hell, give me a good bit of glass on a sub MOA rifle and I can put a round through the eyeball without disturbing the eyelid at 100 dam yards.


I wouldn't know..just thinking they could be ex military but from the pics yeah..they weren't that far away.

----------


## pcosmar

> I remember all the oohing and aahing about the DC sniper taking head shots at 100 yards. I could teach Michael J Fox to make headshots at 100 yards. A 500 yard headshot is mildly impressive. A 100 yard headshot is eyeroll stuff. Then again, these are cops we are talking about here. They shoot worse than Air Force cooks.


I doubt it was 100 yards..

It was across a parking lot.

Shots fired from the Don Carlos restaurant.. (and many hitting cars in that lot) and fired towards the Twin Peaks restaurant.
Patio area and restaurant were the backdrop for police fire. (firing automatic weapons into a crowed restaurant)

14 officers firing 1000 rounds.. killed 9 and wounded 18.. I suspect many of the wounded were inside the restaurant when the shooting started.

There was a substantial and visible Police Presence before anyone showed up..

and we are led to believe (I don't) that a gun fight was started in plain view of an 18 man SWAT team,  an Armored Vehicle and several marked units.

I believe the only shots fired are those of the police.

I believe the only ones there for violence were the police.

----------


## Carlybee

I've been told the FBI wants all bikers in Texas wearing patches to be stopped and if they are carrying even with a CHL to be arrested.

----------


## pcosmar

> I've been told the FBI wants all bikers in Texas wearing patches to be stopped and if they are carrying even with a CHL to be arrested.


I have seen that posted .. and numerous folks claiming that is presently happening.  and not just Tx.

One of the Legislative issues that was addressed (in the video I posted) was a bill to prevent exactly this. They had one pass in Washington State,, and there was one for Texas (but it had no teeth)

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I remember all the oohing and aahing about the DC sniper taking head shots at 100 yards. *I could teach Michael J Fox to make headshots at 100 yards.* A 500 yard headshot is mildly impressive. A 100 yard headshot is eyeroll stuff. Then again, these are cops we are talking about here. They shoot worse than Air Force cooks.


We're both going straight to hell.

You, for writing that.

Me, for laughing my ass off at it.

----------


## devil21

> If they want me to take them seriously as 'snipers,' then they should be talking 300 yard head shots. Calling a 100 yard headshot 'sniper' stuff is like calling a third grader's two paragraph essay 'fine literature.'  One hundred yard headshot is just basic elementary shooting. Hell, give me a good bit of glass on a sub MOA rifle and I can put a round through the eyeball without disturbing the eyelid at 100 dam yards.


I kinda think you're missing the point Glen.  If someone is shooting from an unseen position at unsuspecting target's heads, I think it's rather irrelevant what distance they're at and whether it qualifies as 'sniping' by military definitions.  A 'sniper' is simply someone taking out an unsuspecting target from a distance, in this context.

----------


## tod evans

Quickly rollin' up on two weeks and the MSM is eerily silent.....

Even Google offers slim pickins....

----------


## tod evans

*Waco Biker Shooting Attorney: Bail Used As an Instrument of Oppression*

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...of-oppression/

The Waco biker shooting remains problematic. Some 170 Americans remain under lock-and-key awaiting arraignment, eleven days after the incident, with bail set at $1m. Each. Although theyre under no obligation to produce security camera footage of the incident until those arrested are indicted, the polices decision to withhold the video is noteworthy. The police have also admitted they shot some of the 27 bikers struck by gunfire. Seven were hospitalized, nine assumed room temperature. The Waco coroner has only released a summary of his report which does not specify whether those killed struck by handgun or rifle rounds. Meanwhile this from wacotrib.com. . .


Austin attorney Adam Reposa alleges in motions filed Tuesday that the charging documents filed against his clients, and the 168 others jailed in the chaotic melee, are legally insufficient.

He also claims that the $1 million bonds are unreasonably oppressive and that the judge who set them and the judges who, so far, have not reduced them have shown bias and should be recused.

Reposa represents Jimmy Pond and Thomas Paul Landers. He said Pond, a mechanic from Hays County, is the sole supporter of his family, which includes a disabled wife and autistic son.

Besides the recusal motion, Reposa filed an application for writ of habeas corpus, alleging a client is being held illegally and without proper cause, and a motion for emergency release so Pond can go home and take care of his family.

State District Judges Matt Johnson and Ralph Strother have scheduled bond reduction hearings in about 10 cases for June 5 and June 12.

Peterson has scheduled examining trials in two of the cases for Aug. 10.

But Reposa said that is not quick enough, adding that each day that passes infringes on his clients civil rights and helps promote what he calls the Gestapo-esque militarization of law enforcement.

TTAG called Reposa. At our request, he sent us this statement:

_The case in Waco is problematic for several reasons. The first is the unprecedented arrest and detention of American citizens without adequately alleging a violation of the law. The probable cause affidavit filed in all 170 cases is identical with a fill in the blank format for the citizens name and only alleges that these citizens were at a location where violence led to death, and were wearing patches signifying membership in some motorcycle club. This is a basic militarized attack on a citizens right of free association, and it is for this reason that I am seeking to expedite my clients release and to remove all of the Judges that have failed to hold the State of Texas to its burden in filing charges and secure for the citizens adequate protections of Due Process.

The second major concern is that the factual details which are certainly known are not being released to the public. For instance, the number of shots fired by bikers compared to the number of shots fired by police and the number of deaths attributable to the police are facts that have been established. The Medical examination of all the deceased citizens has been completed, but the results are not available to the public. This of course raises flags about whether there is an attempt to suppress the truth and use the business owned media to distract from the significance of the militarized police operation that was conducted on American soil May 17, 2015.

The truth will come out and the only question is when and from whom. I applaud the efforts of all citizens to keep this story relevant in the constant deluge of subterfuge and distraction.
_
Reposa also sent us the documents relating to the case for your consideration. Click here for a pdf of his motion to recuse Justice of the Peace W.H. Pete Peterson who set $1 million bonds on each defendant to send a message because of the atrocity of the incident and the impact on the community. Click here for Reposas writ of habeas corpus.

Were attempting to contact the coroners office for a full copy of his report. Watch this space.

----------


## pcosmar

Some news,, hoping for more.
*Three more bikers released after bond reduction agreements with DA*
http://www.wacotrib.com/news/courts_....html?mode=jqm




> The three Austin residents were released on bail under the same conditions as two other bikers released previously after posting $1 million bonds each.
> 
> Some of those conditions include requiring the men to wear ankle monitors, restricting their travel, setting curfews and prohibiting them from returning to McLennan County except for court appearances.
> 
> Waco attorney Jonathan Sibley represented the Austin trio and negotiated their releases with the DA’s office. He said he hopes charges eventually will be dismissed against his clients.
> 
> “We are just happy that we were able to work with the district attorney’s office to reach an agreement to lower the bonds,” Sibley said. “We ultimately think the facts will show they had no involvement in anything related to this incident, and we are happy to get them out and let everything play itself out. But we think the facts will show they weren’t involved in this in any way. They were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.”

----------


## tod evans

> “We are just happy that we were able to work with the district attorney’s office"


That just pisses me off to no end! 

The $#@!in' DA is behind all this from the very beginning.

----------


## pcosmar



----------


## navy-vet

> Quickly rollin' up on two weeks and the MSM is eerily silent.....
> 
> Even Google offers slim pickins....


I'm afraid that the majority of folks simply don't care one way or the other. Reminds me of: "First they came for the Indians, and then they came for the blacks, and then they came for the Jews, and ......"

----------


## pcosmar

> I'm afraid that the majority of folks simply don't care one way or the other. Reminds me of: "First they came for the blacks, and then they came for the Jews, and ......"


http://madswirl.com/blog/2015/05/the...-came-for-you/

----------


## Valli6

> Texas Confederation of Clubs and Independents
> *** Urgent - Call to Action ***
> http://txcocinews.org/cta-waco-tragedy.html


Breitbart has continued sporadic coverage under their "*Breitbart Texas*" heading. 
http://www.breitbart.com/texas/

I was pissed with this writer, _Lee Stranahan_, because when the incident first occurred, he seemed to imply that those questioning the official police story were crazy, conspiracy theorists - with a headline labeling them "truthers" (a different writer later claimed to have written that headline). But his subsequent reports seem more open-minded.



> *MOTORCYCLE COMMUNITY REVS UP FOR PROTESTS OVER THE WACO 170′*
> by LEE STRANAHAN  _28 May 2015_
> 
> The *Confederation of Clubs and Independents* (CoC&I)  a political group focused on biker rights  has issued a _Call To Action_, urging citizens to contact law enforcement and politicians. The CoC&I has a direct connection to the Waco events, because the shooting happened outside their scheduled meeting at Twin Peaks. As the group says on it's webpage:
> 
> _This was a Confederation of Clubs and Independents meeting solely intended to discuss legal and political issues. It was not, as has been reported, a gang meeting to discuss turf.* COC meetings have been occurring in Texas and nationwide for decades without a single violent incident. The myth being purported is simply false.
> 
> Video from inside the restaurant clearly shows the vast majority of bikers running away from the shooting and even helping civilians get to safety. Remember, law enforcement was on the scene and should have a clear picture of aggressors and victims. This should not be a guessing game.* But it appears that the Waco PD arrested the majority of eyewitnesses and rights activists present at a publicly promoted political event._
> In addition to online and phone activism, other bikers are calling for live, peaceful protests.
> ...


Also:



> *POLICE SNIPERS SPOTTED AT TWO TEXAS HARLEY DEALERSHIPS IN WAKE OF TWIN PEAKS SHOOTING*
> _by LEE STRANAHAN 29 May 2015_
> http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/...eaks-shooting/

----------


## asurfaholic

Edit. This makes me mad. The more i learn about these events in Waco the angrier I get

----------


## Brian4Liberty

Didn't I read somewhere that they had confiscated all of the bikes?

----------


## Carlybee

3 of them had their bail lowered to $25,000 and were released. They all worked at a custom Harley shop.

----------


## pcosmar

> Didn't I read somewhere that they had confiscated all of the bikes?


Yes they had.

----------


## pcosmar

Law suits are starting.

It is going to get expensive for Waco.

http://www.statesman.com/news/news/l...hooting/nmQhx/

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Bik...305521171.html

and the Twin Peaks Lawsuits will get interesting as well.

They will have to prove that the restaurant was warned,, something the owners have denied ever happened.

----------


## tommyrp12

TEXAS TYRANNY: WACO JUDGE AGREES TO LET MOST BIKERS GO – IF THEY SIGN A CONTRACT VOWING NOT TO SUE FOR WRONGFUL ARREST




> BOND REDUCTIONS OFFERED ONLY IN EXCHANGE FOR WAIVING POTENTIAL LAWSUITS IN WACO SHOOTOUT
> 
> Raw news: Press release from Looney and Conrad Law Firm representing many of the jailed bikers in Waco.
> ——–
> For immediate release
> 
> Waco, Texas – Earlier today, detainees in the Jack Harwell Detention Center in Waco were told that in exchange for bond reductions, they must sign a document stating the Waco police “had the right to arrest the inmate and that he/she will not file a lawsuit against McLennan County and/or the City of Waco.”
> 
> On the two-week anniversary of the “shootout at high noon” at the Twin Peaks restaurant between motorcyclists and law enforcement officers, at least 170 people remain detained on $1 million bonds.
> ...


EDIT: I didn't see there was a entire thread on this article.  http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ikers-In-Texas

----------


## phill4paul

> TEXAS TYRANNY: WACO JUDGE AGREES TO LET MOST BIKERS GO – IF THEY SIGN A CONTRACT VOWING NOT TO SUE FOR WRONGFUL ARREST


  F*ck them. 170 lawsuits and damages is just what the city needs. Break their bank.

----------


## Carlybee

Which says it WAS wrongful arrest.

----------


## tommyrp12

> F*ck them. 170 lawsuits and damages is just what the city needs. Break their bank.


My sentiments exactly. I am hoping some will lose their jobs and the tax payer will not be bearing the full weight of these law suits. I don't live out there but it would be nice to see anyway.

----------


## tod evans

> TEXAS TYRANNY: WACO JUDGE AGREES TO LET MOST BIKERS GO – IF THEY SIGN A CONTRACT VOWING NOT TO SUE FOR WRONGFUL ARREST


Sign nothing!

----------


## phill4paul

> My sentiments exactly. I am hoping some will lose their jobs and the tax payer will not be bearing the full weight of these law suits. I don't live out there but it would be nice to see anyway.


  Oh, taxpayers are going to end up bearing the full weight financially. Hopefully it will hit them hard enough to wake them up. As for those losing jobs sommeone needs to press this on up to the feds and prosecute under color of law.




> Section 242 of Title 18 makes it a crime for a person acting under color of any law to willfully deprive a person of a right or privilege protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States.
> For the purpose of Section 242, acts under "color of law" include acts not only done by federal, state, or local officials within the their lawful authority, but also acts done beyond the bounds of that official's lawful authority, if the acts are done while the official is purporting to or pretending to act in the performance of his/her official duties. Persons acting under color of law within the meaning of this statute include *police officers*, prisons guards and other law enforcement officials, *as well as judges*, care providers in public health facilities, and *others who are acting as public officials.*


http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/crm/242fin.php

----------


## specsaregood

I don't see how signing such an agreement could hold up in court.    How is that not a valid example of signing under duress?

----------


## tommyrp12

> Oh, taxpayers are going to end up bearing the full weight financially. Hopefully it will hit them hard enough to wake them up. As for those losing jobs someone needs to press this on up to the feds and prosecute under color of law.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/crm/242fin.php


Even better.

----------


## phill4paul

> I don't see how signing such an agreement could hold up in court.    How is that not a valid example of signing under duress?


  Release-dismissal agreements can be contested even after voluntarily agreeing. 




> For this reason, the U.S. Supreme Court set out factors for courts to consider in determining whether a civil rights release-dismissal agreement is valid. (Newton v. Rumery, 480 U.S. 386 (1987).) Courts are to consider:
> whether the agreement was voluntary
> whether the agreement contradicts the public interest, and
> whether any prosecutorial misconduct was involved in the criminal case.


http://www.nolo.com/legal-encycloped...l-charges.html

  However, by not signing and being remaining unlawfully incarcerated one would strengthen their case. It seems to me. 

   Disclaimer: I am not a liaryer.

----------


## tod evans

> Release-dismissal agreements can be contested even after voluntarily agreeing. 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nolo.com/legal-encycloped...l-charges.html
> 
>   However, by not signing and being remaining unlawfully incarcerated one would strengthen their case. It seems to me. 
> 
>    Disclaimer: I am not a liaryer.


The bikers lawyers should be presenting the government with opening settlement proposals, $250,000 per man per day and public admission of culpability by every government employee involved would be a good starting point.

----------


## navy-vet

This is turning into a full blown Chinese Fire Drill....or a monkey trying to screw a football expose'.
Seems to me that every time something like this comes along, it ends up being a distraction from something else that is a more pressing danger to us mundanes.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> On the two-week anniversary of the “shootout at high noon” at the Twin Peaks restaurant between motorcyclists and law enforcement officers


Says who?

So far, I have seen no evidence that any shots were fired *AT* cops. (In fact I have seen no evidence to suggest that anybody BUT cops did the shooting)

So far, all I see is a massacre *BY* cops.

----------


## pcosmar

A couple more out,,

William English & Morgan Allen English are out!!!



> Media Release
> WACO DISTRICT ATTORNEYS OFFICE REACHING BOND REDUCTION AGREEMENTS WITH BIKERS FROM TWIN PEAKS SHOOTOUT
> 
> June 1, 2015
> For Immediate Release
> 
> Waco, TX – Earlier today, prosecutors in the Waco District Attorneys office began meeting with defense attorneys for motorcyclists involved in the May 17 shootout at Twin Peaks in order to reach bond conditions and reduction agreements. Paul Looney, Houston attorney with Looney & Conrad, P.C. said he had a productive meeting with Michael Jarrett, First Assistant Prosecutor with the McLennan County District Attorneys office. During that meeting a reasonable bond was agreed to with only minor conditions.
> 
> “My clients were released this morning. We have every expectation that they will be ‘No Billed’ during the Grand Jury process because they are completely innocent of any criminal activity,” Looney said. “The judges in McLennan County and the District Attorney’s office were quite helpful in securing the immediate bond release.”
> ...


A good write up about their Club here.
https://amyirenewhite.wordpress.com/tag/distorted/

----------


## pcosmar

Rival Clubs.?
A broad spectrum of Clubs paying respect to a fallen biker.

Even Cossacks attended..

Still believe that this $#@! was about a patch?

----------


## navy-vet

Seems to me that any agreements signed in order to be released from jail should be rendered void (legalese ?).

----------


## libertyjam

http://truthvoice.com/2015/06/this-w...lliam-english/

http://bikerspost.com/forums/topic/1...ederal-lawsuit

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...of-oppression/

http://patriotnewswire.com/2015/05/b...nman-revealed/

----------


## pcosmar

> Seems to me that any agreements signed in order to be released from jail should be rendered void (legalese ?).


Not sure that any such were signed.. and they would be thrown out even if they were.

It seems (from my reading) that such an agreement was a suggestion of only one Lawyer.. and not approved by the Prosecutors office. (though she was formerly with that office before entering the Public Defenders pool)

It was grossly absurd.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

Well, this is embarrassing. Apparently a press release by a lawyer named "Looney" should have been a warning sign... 




> By TOMMY WITHERSPOON
> 
> A Houston attorney’s media release alleging that jailed bikers were being forced to waive their rights to sue the city and county is false, but the controversy it created has that lawyer squaring off with a Waco attorney over the rumors.
> 
> As with many aspects of the chaotic May 17 incident that left nine dead and 18 wounded at Twin Peaks restaurant, there are differing versions to how the waiver rumors began.
> 
> Houston attorney Paul C. Looney and Waco attorney Brittany Lannen each claim the other is responsible for rumors spreading like wildfire among the jailed bikers, their families and friends and on social media that the bikers were being told they needed to waive their rights to sue the city of Waco or McLennan County in exchange for bond reductions.
> 
> Looney’s Sunday media release accused McLennan County officials, including those in the “public defenders office,” of this “scurrilous activity.” McLennan County has no public defenders office.
> ...





> Fake biker deal yields real fight
> 
> WACO - A fight over a fake deal to break up the large case load of arrests after the Twin Peaks shooting on May 17, is making for a very real battle between lawyers.
> 
> On Sunday, the Houston based law firm Looney and Conrad, PC. sent out a statement saying jailed bikers had been presented with a deal that would reduce their bond amount in exchange for their agreement not to sue the Waco Police Department.
> 
> "It appears the public defenders office in McLennan County is involved in this scurrilous activity,” said Paul Looney in the release, but McLennan County does not have a public defenders office. Looney also said he originally thought the waiver had been approved by the office of the McLennan County district attorney.
> 
> One day later, Looney said he worked with the DA, Abel Reyna, to release his clients and said the lawyer responsible for the fake deal was Valley Mills attorney Brittany Lannen, and his clients had been approached by other inmates he suspected were Lannen's clients.
> ...

----------


## pcosmar

> Well, this is embarrassing. Apparently a press release by a lawyer named "Looney" should have been a warning sign...


Do a search on the other one. She was in the news just a while back,, as a "Special Prosecutor". And She was employed as an asst DA.

One has to wonder where her loyalties lie.

http://www.wacotrib.com/news/courts_...0364154a9.html

Who does she represent?

----------


## tod evans

> Do a search on the other one. She was in the news just a while back,, as a "Special Prosecutor". And She was employed as an asst DA.
> 
> One has to wonder where her loyalties lie.
> 
> http://www.wacotrib.com/news/courts_...0364154a9.html
> 
> *Who does she represent*?



Herself, just like all lawyers...

Clients are merely sources of money and/or headlines used to further her career.......

----------


## pcosmar

> Herself, just like all lawyers...
> 
> Clients are merely sources of money and/or headlines used to further her career.......


Worse than that I would surmise,,

If you care for a disgusting read,, She shows up in this piece of 4th and 5th amendment violating trash.
Its a PDF file.

http://www.ncsc.org/~/media/Files/PD...0Warrants.ashx

She is fine with it and thinks the Pigs should draw blood. (pg 67)

I wouldn't want such defending me.

----------


## Carlybee

> Rival Clubs.?
> A broad spectrum of Clubs paying respect to a fallen biker.
> 
> Even Cossacks attended..
> 
> Still believe that this $#@! was about a patch?


No. But there is rivalry over the patch outside of this situation which is ultimately about territory.

----------


## tod evans

> Worse than that I would surmise,,
> 
> If you care for a disgusting read,, She shows up in this piece of 4th and 5th amendment violating trash.
> Its a PDF file.
> 
> http://www.ncsc.org/~/media/Files/PD...0Warrants.ashx
> 
> She is fine with it and thinks the Pigs should draw blood. (pg 67)
> 
> I wouldn't want such defending me.


I didn't read that tome other than the introduction where she credits her "Hon" mother in law with helping her...

She's a prime candidate for tar-n-feathering, not only does she whore herself out to the system, she seeks to sacrifice her constituents to further her agendas...

----------


## pcosmar

> No. But there is rivalry over the patch outside of this situation which is ultimately about territory.


Well that is a story that is being circulated.. (by police and Media)

Bandidos are WORLD Wide. as are many other Clubs. They are not exclusive to Texas.

I seriously doubt that it had anything at all to do with the events at Twin Peaks..

At this point I doubt that there was any fight at all..

Either one of the souped up cops mistook a cell phone for a gun,, or some Provocateur fired one.,, and then all the Armored up SWAT team (That came there looking for violence) started shooting.

I doubt there was a biker fight at all.

----------


## Carlybee

> Well that is a story that is being circulated.. (by police and Media)
> 
> Bandidos are WORLD Wide. as are many other Clubs. They are not exclusive to Texas.
> 
> I seriously doubt that it had anything at all to do with the events at Twin Peaks..
> 
> At this point I doubt that there was any fight at all..
> 
> Either one of the souped up cops mistook a cell phone for a gun,, or some Provocateur fired one.,, and then all the Armored up SWAT team (That came there looking for violence) started shooting.
> ...


I doubt it had anything to do with it either but the issue does exist and the Bandidos were formed in Texas. They expanded FROM Texas.

----------


## pcosmar

> I doubt it had anything to do with it either but the issue does exist and the Bandidos were formed in Texas. They expanded FROM Texas.


Of the bikers I have known from several clubs around the country,, I do not believe any of them are so stupidly suicidal as to pull a gun in front of a firing squad with full auto weapons.

I Don't believe it for a second..

and if there was so much a one single frame of video that showed such,, it would be on the front page of every media a week ago.

----------


## Carlybee

> Of the bikers I have known from several clubs around the country,, I do not believe any of them are so stupidly suicidal as to pull a gun in front of a firing squad with full auto weapons.
> 
> I Don't believe it for a second..
> 
> and if there was so much a one single frame of video that showed such,, it would be on the front page of every media a week ago.


I don't think anyone here is saying they did.

----------


## Danke

> Of the bikers I have known from several clubs around the country,, I do not believe any of them are so stupidly suicidal as to pull a gun in front of a firing squad with full auto weapons.
> 
> I Don't believe it for a second..
> 
> and if there was so much a one single frame of video that showed such,, it would be on the front page of every media a week ago.


I don't know what happen, I would agree, if there was any shread of evidence exonerating the cops, it would have been made public already.

----------


## SpiritOf1776_J4

> No. But there is rivalry over the patch outside of this situation which is ultimately about territory.


I don't think 170 of those arrested were involved in a gun battle.  That is a lot bigger then what actually occurred, and arresting that many people seems like something out of the movie Casablanca, "round up the usual suspects".

Two of those suspects, a husband and wife
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...s-sham-n368731

_Two of the more than 170 bikers arrested following a deadly brawl and shootout at a Waco, Texas, bar last month are out of jail and speaking out, and their attorney called the mass arrests "un-American."

Husband and wife William and Morgan English posted a reduced bail of $25,000 and were released from jail Monday, but both are still charged with engaging in organized criminal activity, a felony that their attorney said carries a penalty of 15 years to life in prison.

"This whole thing is a sham," William English, 33, who is a former Marine and member of the Distorted Motorcycle Club, said in an interview with NBC affiliate KCEN. "I'm kind of upset that we had to pay to get out of jail when we did nothing wrong."_

----------


## Carlybee

> I don't think 170 of those arrested were involved in a gun battle.  That is a lot bigger then what actually occurred, and arresting that many people seems like something out of Casablanca, "round up the usual suspects".
> :
> Two of those suspects, a husband and wife
> http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...s-sham-n368731



All I said is that there was an existing rivalry. I've never said there was anything to the allegations by the authorities as to what transpired there.

----------


## TheTexan

> I don't know what happen, I would agree, if there was any shread of evidence exonerating the cops, it would have been made public already.


Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?  The only thing the cops are guilty of is shooting and killing a lot of people, but that isn't in dispute.  Besides _that_, do you have any evidence at all that the cops are guilty of a crime?

Because last time I checked, cops killing people isn't a crime, unless you can prove a crime occurred.

----------


## Danke

> Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?  The only thing the cops are guilty of is shooting and killing a lot of people, but that isn't in dispute.  Besides _that_, do you have any evidence at all that the cops are guilty of a crime?
> 
> Because last time I checked, cops killing people isn't a crime, unless you can prove a crime occurred.


I think you may be right, the cops law enforcement officers were place in an untenable situation, where justice must be served for the public good.

----------


## tod evans

> Two of those suspects, a husband and wife
> http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...s-sham-n368731


This video shows what I'd call a key fob, the dude called it a vest ornament, but the kops identified it as a _weapon_......

(4-5 inch piece of decorative chain)

----------


## fisharmor

Are you guys still talking about this?
Look, I'm sorry if you didn't get the memo, but this has been definitively settled since April 1993.
The government does whatever the $#@! it wants, and you watch and applaud.
Nobody cares about bikers - they're no farther up the food chain than crazy cult members.  It's time to just deal with it - groups of undesirables are going to be culled periodically.

That's the way it is.  That's the way it's always been since X000BC, and it's not going to change, no matter how hard you vote.
That's the machine: that's the computer program.  This is what happens.  There is no other possible output.

----------


## pcosmar

> Are you guys still talking about this?
> Look, I'm sorry if you didn't get the memo, but this has been definitively settled since April 1993.
> The government does whatever the $#@! it wants, and you watch and applaud.
> Nobody cares about bikers - they're no farther up the food chain than crazy cult members.  It's time to just deal with it - groups of undesirables are going to be culled periodically.
> 
> That's the way it is.  That's the way it's always been since X000BC, and it's not going to change, no matter how hard you vote.
> That's the machine: that's the computer program.  This is what happens.  There is no other possible output.


Sadly this is very close to a reality. 

I would still like to see a change,, Peaceful is preferred,, 
By any means necessary if that is not possible.

----------


## tod evans

> Sadly this is very close to a reality. 
> 
> I would still like to see a change,,* Peaceful is preferred,*, 
> By any means necessary if that is not possible.


History points to peacefulness not bringing about change.....

----------


## pcosmar

*What Waco Police Still Won't Reveal About the Biker-Gang Shootout*
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...lled-9/394892/
*
Waco police seeking to bar information about Texas biker shooting*
yahoo.com/waco-police-seeking-to-bar-information-about-texas-biker-shooting-034142932.html

----------


## thoughtomator

Story on Yahoo today about it https://news.yahoo.com/waco-police-s...034142932.html

Take a look at the comments. Almost every single commenter appears to believe the police mass murdered some folks. The tide is turning...

----------


## devil21

If you don't have anything to hide.....yada yada.  Or is that only for the little people?

----------


## tod evans

*US: Murky goings on in Waco*

http://morningstaronline.co.uk/a-758...ngs-on-in-Waco

A suspiciously large number of questions remain to be answered over the recent Hell’s Angels-style biker shoot-out in Texas, says JAMES TWEEDIE

WHAT would you think if you read that three dozen people, from a marginalised section of society, had been shot in a US city with a history of excessive violence by officers of the law, and that crucial facts about the incident — which involved heavily armed paramilitary police — were being kept secret?
You might be forgiven for thinking that there had been yet another police massacre of black people and that the civil rights movement and community organisations would be up in arms. Well, you’d be wrong.
On Sunday May 17 of this year it was reported that nine people had been killed and 27 injured in a shoot-out between Hell’s Angels-style bikers in the Texas town of Waco, most famous for the 1993 Branch Davidian siege and massacre.
The initial reports were straightforward. About a dozen biker gangs had held a lunchtime meeting at the local branch of the Twin Peaks restaurant chain, a Hooters-style “breastaurant.” A brawl broke out in the toilets between members of three gangs, the Bandidos, the Cossacks and the Scimitars. The fight spilled out into the car park, where knives were drawn, then handguns, resulting in a deadly gunfight. Police arrested nearly 200 bikers and confiscated about 100 weapons.
Social media began to buzz with people comparing the supposed kid-glove handling of the bikers with the heavy handed policing — and hostile media response — to protests in Ferguson and Baltimore over the killings of Michael Brown and Freddie Gray. Bloggers and tweeters demanded to know why the National Guard weren’t on the streets of Waco, why protesters weren’t being tear-gassed and arrested and why the media wasn’t deriding the “white skinheads” as thugs.
But the plot thickens. Almost immediately serious questions began to be asked about the police version of events in Waco that Sunday lunchtime.
The meeting at the Twin Peaks restaurant was organised by the Texas Confederation of Clubs and Independents (COC&I), a kind of trades council for bikers, weeks in advance. At least 13 motorcycle clubs were present. According to the website of one, the Vise Grip, previous COC&I meetings had been addressed by congressmen and lawyers.
Blogger The Ageing Rebel points out that the Waco Police Department had pressured Twin Peaks manager Jay Patel, one of five men of Indian descent who own the bar, to refuse the confederation entry in advance. But Patel obviously considered the club members good customers since he’d made Thursday night “biker night” and he refused. The day after the shooting, authorities revoked the restaurant’s alcohol licence and brand owner Front Burner Restaurants cancelled its franchise — a clear case of punishing the victim.
When the bikers arrived for their lunch meeting they found a heavily armed force of 22 police — 12 normal uniformed officers plus a 10-strong Swat team — waiting for them outside the restaurant. What exactly happened next is unclear and controversial.
A security camera video from the restaurant shows contradicts the police claim that the fight started inside the restaurant. When shooting breaks out outside on the patio, patrons take cover or try to flee the building through the kitchen. Crucially, only one biker can be seen firing a gun on the patio.
When the smoke cleared the police arrested almost everyone left standing. Some were kept handcuffed for 14 hours. One hundred and seventy were charged under Texas’s organised crime laws. They face life imprisonment or even the death penalty if convicted. The day after the shooting the whole city of Waco was “locked down” by police. The Texas Department of Public Safety leaked a confidential bulletin to the media claiming that the Bandidos were arming themselves with “grenades and C4 explosives” and were plotting to kill “high-ranking law enforcement officials and their families with car bombs.” 
Why would they target the police if their comrades were killed by members of another club?
The Waco Police Department has admitted that its officers fired shots in the incident, but it still hasn’t said who shot who. Four days after the shooting Waco PD spokesman Sergeant Patrick Swanton — in response to allegations that officers had killed four of the bikers — claimed that the autopsies were not yet complete, but that his colleagues were innocent. Yet following the incident 14 officers were placed on “administrative leave” — standard procedure for officers who have killed a suspect.
Swanton’s story keeps changing. First he claimed members of two gangs were involved in the shooting, then five. At one point he said that 1,000 “weapons” had been found in the vicinity, including AK-47s and body armour. With the credibility gap widening, serious questions remain unanswered. Was this yet another case of “contagious shooting” by trigger-happy police? Was the Waco “biker shoot-out” in fact a police massacre?
Who were these “white thugs”? As the police released a gallery of 170 mugshots with names, it became clear that many were Hispanic, at least two were black and one was a woman. Relatives said they held down jobs like driving lorries, raised money for local charities and were good family men. One is a retired police detective. One of the clubs present was the Vietnam Veterans — by definition men in their sixties or seventies. The Vise Grip refurbish and ride vintage Harley Davidsons.
Despite Swanton’s claims that they were “a bunch of criminal element biker members that came to Waco and tried to instil violence,” only five of the nine killed and 115 of the 170 injured had any kind of criminal record — pretty poor showing for supposed gangsters.
Take, for example, Jesus Delgado Rodriguez, one of the dead. He was a 65-year-old Vietnam veteran, a recipient of the Purple Heart medal given to soldiers wounded or killed in combat. He had no criminal record and his family say he was not a member of any gang when he was killed. His son-in-law Amado Garces said: “If he thought there was going to be violence he wouldn’t have gone.”
There are plenty of genuine comparisons to be made between Waco, Ferguson, Baltimore, Cleveland and so on. The dead have been defamed by police with vague allegations of criminality that don’t stand up to close scrutiny. Members of their community have been accused of plotting violence against public order. The media is lapping up the official version of events and failing to question the obvious contradictions.
Outlaw bikers are perennial outcasts in society, subject to prejudice, discrimination and demonisation since the Hollister “riots” — the sensationalist media spin on a weekend’s drunken revelling — of 1947. Let’s not be mistaken — outlaw bikers aren’t choirboys on choppers. Some drink heavily, take drugs and frequently get into fights. The same is true of everyone at the arse end of the class hierarchy.
The great US journalist Hunter S Thompson rode with the most notorious motorcycle club of them all — the Hell’s Angels — for two years, got drunk and stoned with them and was eventually beaten up by a bunch of them.
In his book on the gang, Thompson tells how towns organised bands of gun-toting vigilantes when outlaw biker “runs” descended on their picture-book communities for the weekend. Vigilantism is a US tradition dating back to before independence. It has always been directed against outsiders and undesirables — immigrants, free blacks, smallholding farmers, trade unionists and bikers.
Any assertive white working-class subculture — teddy boys, mods and rockers, metalheads, skinheads, punks and so on — is commonly dismissed as racist, misogynist and thuggish by the middle classes. It’s easier to call Texan bikers red-necks — a class prejudicial term — than to see them as fellow oppressed of the class system.
Dealing with police racism in the US is long overdue, but that alone won’t solve other critical problems. Police in the US are increasingly militarised, equipped with army-surplus armoured vehicles, body armour and assault rifles. Swat teams are used in thousands of routine home searches and arrests. Hundreds are killed by police every year, yet no government agency compiles a comprehensive record of such incidents.
Those who claim to speak for the marginalised victims of police brutality in the US industrial heartlands have missed an opportunity to make common cause with the bikers of Texas. Instead they let their prejudices get the better of them or claimed “white privilege” had somehow protected the pariahs of society.
There was no tear-gassing of protesters in Waco simply because there were no protests in solidarity with the dead, injured and unjustly imprisoned. No-one outside the outlaw biker subculture seems to care. In the words of the Motorhead song, co-written by Hell’s Angel Guy “Tramp” Lawrence, “they were all born to lose.”

----------


## Carlybee

There's going to be a big biker rally and protest there tomorrow at the courthouse.

----------


## pcosmar

> There's going to be a big biker rally and protest there tomorrow at the courthouse.


There are two events.
The All for 1 rally and a big swap meet at Coppertops.

I will be watching both.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Those who claim to speak for the marginalised victims of police brutality in the US industrial heartlands have missed an opportunity to make common cause with the bikers of Texas. Instead they let their prejudices get the better of them or claimed “white privilege” had somehow protected the pariahs of society.


This.

----------


## donnay

*Who shot who in Waco biker bloodbath? Mystery as witnesses say semi-automatic guns favored by POLICE did most of the shooting in contested accounts of battle*

First came a few pistol shots, several witnesses said, then a barrage of rifle fire during the shootout last month at a Waco restaurant favored by bikers.

But authorities still have not said how many of the dead and wounded were the result of police fire.

Police have identified only one assault weapon, a semi-automatic gun that fires high-powered ammunition, among the firearms confiscated from bikers, and that was found in a locked car after the shooting ended.


But several witnesses - at least three of them veterans with weapons training - say that semi-automatic gunfire dominated the May 17 shootout that left nine dead and 18 wounded.

'I heard, "pop, pop" small caliber, and then a rapid succession of shots from what sounded to me like an assault rifle,' said William English.

The former Marine and Iraq war veteran was approaching the front door of the Twin Peaks restaurant for a meeting of biker clubs at the time.

*Continued...*

----------


## tommyrp12

WACO BIKERS ATTORNEY ESSENTIALLY POURED THE F*** OUT IN HEARING TO REMOVE BIASED JUDGES




> The attorney for nine of the Twin Peaks bikers told Breitbart Texas that he was in effect told You Sir, are poured the f*** out. A hearing was held this week on motions to remove three McLennan County judges who set and retained $1 million bonds on bikers arrested at the Twin Peaks restaurant in Waco, Texas. The attorney argued that the judges demonstrated bias and should be recused from making future rulings.
> 
> Austin lawyer Adam Reposa argued that the $1 million bonds were unreasonably oppressive, unconstitutional, and the judges clearly showed bias in setting them.
> 
> Breitbart Texas reported the story when Reposa filed his motions to remove these judges.
> 
> Breitbart Texas also reported that two of the same judges had three bikers re-arrested after they bonded out on reduced bonds. Their bonds were reset to $1 million but they were able to bond out again. The article was entitled in part, Waco Judges Gone Wild.
> 
> The judge appointed to hear the motions to remove the judges, retired criminal district judge Doug Shaver from Houston, denied the motions to recuse and said that the bond process should be expedited so the men would not be a burden on taxpayers who are paying to keep them in jail.
> ...


The dude is legit,i found this video some years ago and the judges just need to GTFO of his way.

----------


## pcosmar

Seems the Rally was peaceful,, but a low turnout.

Most likely went to La Marque for the Swap meet that had been planned before the shooting.
Most not spending money where they are not welcome.

----------


## navy-vet

"Most not spending money where they are not welcome." - pcosmar
Can't say that I blame em.

----------


## pcosmar

For those still Caged.

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Brian4Liberty

The same people on CNN who constantly agitate about race relations Tweet this about Waco:

The history and violence of American motorcycle gangs

----------


## Anti Federalist

> The same people on CNN who constantly agitate about race relations Tweet this about Waco:
> 
> The history and violence of American motorcycle gangs


I really do *despise* the government organs.

----------


## pcosmar

http://onabike.com/motorcycle-news/c...motorcyclists/
http://onabike.com/motorcycle-news/p...continue-meet/
**** NEWS RELEASE *** FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE *** NEWS RELEASE ***
NCOM Affiliates to Hire Ex-Texas Ranger to investigate;
Urges Confederation of Clubs to Continue to Meet
*




> June 8, 2015 — The National Coalition Of Motorcyclists (NCOM) ties together all of the country’s Confederation Of Clubs and Independents (COC&I) across more than 35 states. These organizations have successfully fostered a spirit of collaboration among diverse motorcycle clubs, independents and other legislative organizations from across the country for over 30 years. NCOM’s board of directors along with a team of lawyers with Aid to Injured Motorcyclists (AIM) educate, help pass legislation, and provide legal guidance to help improve the quality of life for those who choose to enjoy the road on two wheels.
> 
> More than three weeks have passed and NCOM has reserved its reaction waiting for Waco Authorities to sort through the details about what happened that tragic afternoon. However, it is difficult to stand by and watch the continued abuse of American constitutional rights at every turn. More than 140 innocent citizens, who were not involved in the tragedy, have been locked up for an unreasonable amount of time. They have also suffered a basic lack of humanitarian services while being held with disregard for the financial impact on the livelihoods of individuals who happen to ride a motorcycle. These are all innocent victims.
> 
> Yes, a crime took place while the local COC&I organizers were preparing for the meeting. Yes, there were lives tragically lost. We want answers as to how and why this happened. We don’t have confidence in local authorities after they continued changing stories, disregarded the facts, and continue to violate the rights of citizens. NCOM, the Confederation of Clubs, and lawyers with AIM are hiring a former Texas Ranger to learn the truth as to who was responsible for the violence at our Texas Region 1 COC&I meeting and expose the many violations of basic human rights of those arrested and who continue to be held. We pursue claims against those who have, and continue to violate the rights of citizens merely because they ride a motorcycle.
> 
> We are also asking all COC&I regions in Texas and around the country to continue their meetings as scheduled. We are encouraging them to have a lawyer with AIM present to help work with local authorities and media to avoid any misunderstandings. This is an opportunity for COC&I’s throughout Texas and around the country to raise awareness about all the positive, productive things that are being done for all American Bikers – both patch holders and independents.
> 
> NCOM, the Confederation of Clubs, and lawyers with AIM are committed to making certain that the innocent lives lost, the devastating financial impact and the sacrifice of loved ones as a result of this tragic event in Waco will not be in vain. Our organizations will push forward continuing our collaborative work that will promote the truth that our rights as Americans are universal and should be upheld no matter if you ride a motorcycle or not.

----------


## pcosmar

*Breitbart Texas Files Request For Unreleased Videos Of Waco Biker Shooting*

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/...iker-shooting/




> Breitbart Texas has filed a formal request for the release of video tapes that might shed more light on the questions being raised about the mass arrest of bikers after the shooting incident outside a Twin Peaks restaurant in Waco, Texas on May 17th. The written request asks for surveillance video from Twin Peaks and the nearby Don Carlos restaurant, as well a police dash-cam video.


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/11/us...d-justice.html




> “They just collectively labeled everybody there as a vicious gang member,” Mr. Clendennen, a Baylor University graduate who owns a landscaping business in the Waco area, said on Monday, days after his release from jail. “They arrested us because of what we were wearing and where we were at. Because I was wearing a certain color vest, automatically in their eyes I was guilty. So much for innocent until proven guilty.”


Some media is starting to ask  questions.

And the real story will come out,, sooner or later.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/11/us...d-justice.html
> 
> Some media is starting to ask  questions.
> 
> And the real story will come out,, sooner or later.


Even in that article, they are giving the impression that mere possession of weapons is a crime. Clearly no one cares about the Second Amendment.

----------


## tod evans

> Even in that article, they are giving the impression that mere possession of weapons is a crime. Clearly no one cares about the Second Amendment.


Mere possession by "scary" people......

----------


## Anti Federalist

> “They had barely gotten onto the property,” Mr. Looney said. “In this country, we have constitutional protections against that kind of a sweep. It’s the most un-American activity I’ve seen on American soil.”


Not anymore counselor.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> Breitbart Texas has filed a formal request for the release of video tapes that might shed more light on the questions being raised about the mass arrest of bikers after the shooting incident outside a Twin Peaks restaurant in Waco, Texas on May 17th. The written request asks for surveillance video from Twin Peaks and the nearby Don Carlos restaurant, as well a police dash-cam video.


I'm willing to bet that with all of the various government entities deployed, there was quite a bit of video captured. Much more than just dash-cam.

----------


## pcosmar

> I'm willing to bet that with all of the various government entities deployed, there was quite a bit of video captured. Much more than just dash-cam.


And I guarantee that it does not show what is claimed by the police. (which is why it is not seen already.

It can not show what did not happen.

----------


## tod evans

> I'm willing to bet that with all of the various government entities deployed, there was quite a bit of video captured. Much more than just dash-cam.


They're going over it like sports game tapes right now........

----------


## pcosmar

> They're going over it like sports game tapes right now........


Doubts.

They are destroying the evidence. Crushing the hard drives.
I doubt it will ever be seen.. 

It can not show what did not happen,, and they have already been caught in lies.

What it will show is bikers being shot dead by police for no cause.. *They will not allow that to be seen.*

----------


## CPUd

> (CNN)Police officers fired 12 rounds during a deadly shootout last month at a restaurant in Waco, Texas, authorities said Friday in a news release.
> 
> Waco police said 44 shell casings have been recovered from the scene where nine bikers were killed during a shootout at a Twin Peaks restaurant. Twelve of those casings came from the .223 caliber rifles of three SWAT officers, who were in adjacent parking lots.
> 
> Police couldn't say whether any of those bullets killed or wounded any bikers. Other agencies are doing autopsies and ballistic analysis, Waco police said.
> 
> The three officers, who had their weapons set to semiautomatic mode, are on administrative duty as the investigation into the incident continues.
> 
> Police said they have not yet recovered casings that remained in revolvers used during the shootings.
> ...


http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/12/us/tex...aco/index.html

----------


## tod evans

> Police said they have not yet recovered casings that remained in revolvers used during the shootings.


WTF?

----------


## pcosmar

> http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/12/us/tex...aco/index.html


Bull$#@!.They also said it started inside. It was a lie. No fight inside the restaurant occurred

They said Cossacks executed Bandidos, It was a lie. No Bandidos were killed

They said they gathered for Violence. It was a lie. It was a regularly scheduled Political  meeting

Show the video.

----------


## navy-vet

Revolver 101, for who ever may be interested.

There is a preference by some for the revolver, over the semi auto for various reasons. One of which is it's retaining in the cylinder, of the spent casings (brass) as opposed to the semi automatic pistols ejection out into the environment where they may be recovered and matched to the weapons mechanisms. 

Another reason the revolver may be preferred is it's reliability regarding jamming up, which is a common problem with the semi-auto. And lastly, the ease of discharging from within a pocket (especially with the hammer-less models). Semi-autos are almost guaranteed to hang up by catching the cloth lining in the slide mechanism and rendering the gun useless.

The advantages that the semi offers over the revolver are the increased capacity and rapid fire.
Give me a semi for a fight and a revolver for assassination.

----------


## pcosmar

> Give me a semi for a fight and a revolver for assassination.


So you are saying that they assassinated other bikers by firing from inside a pocket?
and got head shots,, 

cuz that is what it sounds like you are inferring.

I doubt it. and Photos from immediately after (before bodies were covered),, showed no weapons on the ground near any of the dead.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

Revolvers are also more reliable and easier to operate.  If someone has never had a pistol and wants one, I usually recommend a revolver for their first pistol.

----------


## navy-vet

> So you are saying that they assassinated other bikers by firing from inside a pocket?
> and got head shots,, 
> 
> cuz that is what it sounds like you are inferring.
> 
> I doubt it. and Photos from immediately after (before bodies were covered),, showed no weapons on the ground near any of the dead.


No, I wasn't inferring that at all. I personally think that it was a set up by the "authorities" to get rid of some bikers. I had a friend who was the president of a chapter of the Pagans MC when I lived in Delaware, who they murdered and put an Uzi in his hands, because they couldn't get him legally. So, I know it happens.

I would expect perhaps that some of the bikers may have got off some defensive shots though. But nothing surprises me anymore and when I give some one the benefit of the doubt, it isn't the cops that get it.

----------


## pcosmar

> No, I wasn't inferring that at all. I personally think that it was a set up by the "authorities" to get rid of some bikers. I had a friend who was the president of a chapter of the Pagans MC when I lived in Delaware, who they murdered and put an Uzi in his hands, because they couldn't get him legally. So, I know it happens.
> 
> I would expect perhaps that some of the bikers may have got off some defensive shots though. But nothing surprises me anymore and when I give some one the benefit of the doubt, it isn't the cops that get it.


One fired from the patio area,, but only after the restaurant was under fire by automatic weapons.
I have no idea what he thought he was shooting at. Perhaps just reflexive.

I do not think any fired.. I think it is unlikely that there was a fight at all.

And I suspect that one of the police officers pissed himself at the sight of a cell phone or "furtive movement" and fired a couple shots. and then the pre-positioned SWAT team opened up.

The rest being CYA.

----------


## navy-vet

> One fired from the patio area,, but only after the restaurant was under fire by automatic weapons.
> I have no idea what he thought he was shooting at. Perhaps just reflexive.
> 
> I do not think any fired.. I think it is unlikely that there was a fight at all.
> 
> And I suspect that one of the police officers pissed himself at the sight of a cell phone or "furtive movement" and fired a couple shots. and then the pre-positioned SWAT team opened up.
> 
> The rest being CYA.


That sounds plausible too. Wonder if we will ever know the truth. Even when they release videos I am suspicious.

----------


## devil21

I may be cherry-picking to support a point but:




> Waco police said 44 shell casings have been recovered from the scene where nine bikers were killed during a shootout at a Twin Peaks restaurant. Twelve of those casings came from the .223 caliber rifles of three SWAT officers, who were in *adjacent parking lots*.

----------


## devil21

Oh look, snipers killing in Dallas now.

Watch for more and more 'incidents' that involve snipers.





> That definitely sounds like targeted assassinations then.  I've seen 'insiders' (don't ask) warn that when/if targeted assassinations start, it will be from snipers from 100 yards, so be careful of people trying to coerce you into situations where you're exposed and killings can be plausibly covered up as something else entirely.


Makes me wonder if the Chris Kyle-American Sniper craze was a conditioning exercise to desensitize people to the notion of snipers routinely shooting people domestically as part of "police" SOP.

----------


## pcosmar

> That sounds plausible too. Wonder if we will ever know the truth. Even when they release videos I am suspicious.


This too sounds very possible,  




The Cossack are not listed as an "Outlaw Motorcycle Club".. and some say it is a LE/FF club. That would fit with images I have seen,, Many look like cops.
It may well have been an intentional provocation.

----------


## tod evans

Good video Pete!

At the end that dude lays it on the prosecutor.

----------


## The Northbreather

> This too sounds very possible,  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Cossack are not listed as an "Outlaw Motorcycle Club".. and some say it is a LE/FF club. That would fit with images I have seen,, Many look like cops.
> It may well have been an intentional provocation.


WOW!

----------


## devil21

> WOW!


Wow indeed.  I'm about convinced there are targeted assassinations underway by unknown forces (are they actually cops?  or others blending in with cops?  or foreign contractors? or?) that are being passed off by the media as different events entirely.  If what exactly happened at Twin Peaks can be uncovered then it will uncover the blueprint being used for this manufactured chaos in Texas and the goals of such chaos.

----------


## navy-vet

"brown shirts" 1930

----------


## phill4paul

> Wow indeed.  I'm about convinced there are targeted assassinations underway by unknown forces (*are they actually cops?  or others blending in with cops?  or foreign contractors? or?*) that are being passed off by the media as different events entirely.  If what exactly happened at Twin Peaks can be uncovered then it will uncover the blueprint being used for this manufactured chaos in Texas and the goals of such chaos.


  It's all one big _Fusion_ these days.

----------


## tod evans

Amazing how just down the road in Dallas there's some dude in a van who starts shooting and poof there's gobs of video to document this unplanned assault on kops...

But in this case where the kops pre-planned their attack on bikers both video and evidence seem so elusive....

----------


## pcosmar

> Amazing how just down the road in Dallas there's some dude in a van who starts shooting and poof there's gobs of video to document this unplanned assault on kops...
> 
> But in this case where the kops pre-planned their attack on bikers both video and evidence seem so elusive....


Funny how that works.

The Cops story on this has changed and been proven false several times.
You would think that the video evidence would have been shown,, unless there is something they don't want seen.

----------


## specsaregood

> But in this case where the kops pre-planned their attack on bikers both video and evidence seem so elusive....


Oh they have the video, they just aren't going to show it to you.

----------


## pcosmar

Ok,, in my continuing searches for bits and pieces,, I ran across something odd.. (and something I suspected)

*What Does the Bureau of Land Management Have Against Bikers?*

https://amyirenewhite.wordpress.com/...gainst-bikers/

Check the rest of her Blog too. Some good stuff there.

----------


## navy-vet

> Ok,, in my continuing searches for bits and pieces,, I ran across something odd.. (and something I suspected)
> 
> *What Does the Bureau of Land Management Have Against Bikers?*
> 
> https://amyirenewhite.wordpress.com/...gainst-bikers/
> 
> Check the rest of her Blog too. Some good stuff there.


Brown tee shirts under the green, grey, black, and blue uniforms....
Interesting blog there Pete, appears to be another piece of the puzzle.

----------


## tod evans

> Brown tee shirts under the green, grey, black, and blue uniforms....
> Interesting blog there Pete, appears to be another piece of the puzzle.


Why am I in this handbasket, and where are we going?

----------


## navy-vet

> Why am I in this handbasket, and where are we going?


Where it's unbearably warm?

----------


## navy-vet

For some reason, that last comment brought the image of Nadine Cross standing in that Vegas elevator saying "we're all in hell", as the door closes. - "the Stand"

----------


## devil21

> Oh they have the video, they just aren't going to show it to you.


lol that's a good one.





> Ok,, in my continuing searches for bits and pieces,, I ran across something odd.. (and something I suspected)
> 
> *What Does the Bureau of Land Management Have Against Bikers?*
> 
> https://amyirenewhite.wordpress.com/...gainst-bikers/
> 
> Check the rest of her Blog too. Some good stuff there.


Nice find.  I've posted numerous times that the BLM land grabs are a big part of Jade Helm and unwinding of the federal debt.  Makes sense that BLM wants to take out potential opposition leaders in advance of forceful land grabs.  All of this stuff is linked.

----------


## pcosmar

*Decorated war vet critical of Waco police actions*
http://www.khou.com/story/news/local...ions/71126836/
*Four Weeks Later: Waco Police Narrative Unravels*
http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/...tive-unravels/


DO Not let this story fall down the memory hole.

----------


## Origanalist

> *Decorated war vet critical of Waco police actions*
> http://www.khou.com/story/news/local...ions/71126836/
> *Four Weeks Later: Waco Police Narrative Unravels*
> http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/...tive-unravels/
> 
> 
> DO Not let this story fall down the memory hole.


I read the one at Breitbart this morning. hardly anybody believes the police version of the slaughter.

----------


## pcosmar

> I read the one at Breitbart this morning. hardly anybody believes the police version of the slaughter.


Certainly none of the witnesses or victims do.

It would be nice if one of those people in Waco PD would grow a conscience and speak out,, or release the video evidence.

But that is more than can be hoped for.. We will likely have to wait for evidence to be presented at trial,, which could take years.

----------


## thoughtomator

> I read the one at Breitbart this morning. hardly anybody believes the police version of the slaughter.


But who is going to do anything about it?

----------


## osan

> But who is going to do anything about it?


Apparently, nobody. That is why kops behave as they do: adverse consequences are grossly insufficient.  Why _shouldn't_ they behave as they do?  Try to see it from their point of view.  Lots of people behave civilly only because they don't want the results that would befall them otherwise.  The risk to kops is so low...

----------


## Origanalist

> But who is going to do anything about it?


I' have been waiting for somebody to respond in kind when this happens to a loved one, patiently. Still waiting. Beyond that no one is. 

Oh, I guess there is. I forgot, there is a war on cops going on.

----------


## Valli6

_Lee Stranahan from Breitbart interviews Matt Clendennen - one of the men arrested in Waco._ 
http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/...-watch-decide/

Waco Biker Shooting: Matt Clendennen Talks About His Arrest (6:43)

----------


## Valli6

Today is 30 days since this incident occurred. Surprised they've limited it to only 25 of them. Implies that they already know that none of the others can be charged with a crime, doesn't it?



> *Forfeiture Motions Filed For Cycles, Vehicles Seized At Twin Peaks*
> _By: Paul J. Gately_
> 
> WACO (June 17, 2015) The McLennan County District Attorneys Office has filed civil motions *naming 25 individuals* arrested in the May 17 Twin Peaks motorcycle gang shootings seeking forfeiture of tens of thousands of dollars worth of motorcycles and vehicles impounded after the shootout that left nine bikers dead and 18 others injured.
> 
> *District Attorney Abel Reyna* said Wednesday state law requires that *forfeiture motions be filed within 30 days of an arrest* and Wednesday marks the 30th day since the shootings that claimed nine lives and left 18 injured.
> 
> *Texas law requires* that *prosecutors prove that items* sought through forfeiture *were used in the commission of a felony crime or were purchased with money generated from a felony crime*.
> 
> ...


Here's what they want to keep:

Jeff Batty, of Ponder, a 2004 Harley Davidson motorcycle; 
Richard Benavides, of San Antonio, a 2004 Mazda; 
Christopher J. Carrizales, of Dallas, a 2003 Harley Davidson; 
Greg J. Corrales, of San Antonio, a 2003 Chevrolet; 
John F. Craft, of Temple, a 2006 Harley Davidson; 
John Guerrero, of San Antonio, a 2006 Chevrolet and 
Tommy K. Jennings, of North Richland Hills, a 2003 GMC.
Also 
Josh L. Martin, of Pittsburg, a 2008 Chevrolet; 
David Martinez, of Terrell, a 2015 Harley Davidson; 
Billy J. McRee, of Seagoville, a 2008 Harley Davidson; 
Michael D. Moore, of Fort Worth, a 1999 GMC 350 pickup; 
Jason J. Moreno, of San Antonio, a 2008 Chevrolet; 
Anthony S. Palmer, of Longview, a 2002 Ford F-250 pickup; 
Clayton D. Reed, of Burleson, a 2009 Harley Davidson, 
Diego Obledo, of San Antonio, a 2009 Toyota and 
Kristopher Rhyne, of Axtell, a 2009 Harley Davidson.
Also 
James E. Stallings, of Corsicana, a 2009 Harley Davidson; 
Michael G. Thomas, of Mesquite, a 2006 Harley Davidson; 
Reginald Weathers, of Forney, a 2004 Midway motorcycle; 
John R. Wilson, of Waco, a 2013 Harley Davidson; 
Ricky W. Wycough, of Richardson, a 2011 Harley Davidson; 
Ronald N. Atterbury, of Gatesville, a 2003 Harley Davidson; 
James B. Ensey, of Fort Worth, a 2004 Harley Davidson; 
Timothy S. Satterwhite, of Gordon, a 2003 Harley Davidson and 
Jacob R. Wilson, of Hewitt, a 2012 Harley Davidson.

----------


## Occam's Banana

> McLennan D.A. files forfeiture motions on 25 individuals


Who says crime doesn't pay?

----------


## Valli6

They don't want the public to see what's in the _Twin Peaks_ survelliance video.




> *WACO JUDGE STOPS TWIN PEAKS VIDEO RELEASE, ISSUES GAG ORDER*
> by LANA SHADWICK  _1 Jul 2015_
> 
> A Waco criminal court judge has issued a gag order in the Twin Peaks biker case preventing lawyers and prosecutors from talking to the media. He also shielded a Twin Peaks restaurant surveillance video from release to the public. Breitbart Texas sent a Texas Public Information Act request to the City of Waco for that and other videos on June 4th and has reported about the Citys noncompliance with the request.
> 
> Last week, an *attorney for one of the bikers, Clint Broden, procured a subpoena for the Twin Peaks restaurants May 17th surveillance video. Patrick Keating, the attorney who represents the Twin Peaks franchise, had agreed to honor the subpoena.*
> 
> In response to the issuance of the subpoena, the *City of Waco* filed a motion to stop its release arguing that releasing the video would interfere with the citys investigation into the May 17th shootout. The City argued that Broden was trying to circumvent the legal rules of discovery by getting information from a nonparty. Broden responded that the City of Waco was trying to get around Texas rules governing criminal procedure.
> 
> ...


From the WacTrib:



> *Judge prevents public release of Twin Peaks video, issues gag order*
> _June 30, 2015_ 12:57 pm
> By TOMMY WITHERSPOON
> 
> A state district judge ruled Tuesday that a Dallas attorney can have a copy of a Twin Peaks franchisees video of the May 17 biker shootout, but the judge barred the release of the video to the public.
> 
> *Judge Matt Johnson* of _Wacos 54th State District Court_ also granted a prosecution request to place a gag order in the *Matthew Alan Clendennen* case, preventing attorneys on both sides, law enforcement officers and witnesses from discussing that case only in the media.
> 
> In arguing his case for release of the video, _Dallas attorney_ *Clint Broden* said he needs to review the video to prove his clients innocence and to help him prepare for an examining trial set for Aug. 10.
> ...

----------


## Valli6

What's this? Texas has a "new system" for selecting grand juries? 

http://www.wacotrib.com/news/twin-pe...4618dfe53.html




> *Grand jury extended 2 months to hear Twin Peaks biker cases*
> *June 30, 2015* 7:45 pm
> By TOMMY WITHERSPOON twitherspoon@wacotrib.com
> 
> With *100 potential grand jurors waiting* to report to the *McLennan County Courthouse next week* to break in a new system for selecting grand juries, a judge Tuesday extended the term of the current grand jury to consider the Twin Peaks shootout case.
> 
> *Judge Matt Johnson* of Wacos 54th State District Court agreed to *extend the grand jurys term by 60 days through the end of Augus*t. The *grand jurys current term was set to expire Tuesday.*
> 
> In an *order signed Tuesday*, Johnson said he was extending the term *for the purpose of concluding the investigation into the incident at Twin Peaks, allegations and circumstances surrounding such incident.
> ...


*How the grand jury system has been changed.* (from the same article by Tommy Witherspoon).



> For the first time in at least 75 years, McLennan County will change the manner in which grand juries are selected because of a *new law passed in the final days of the most recent Texas legislative session*.
> 
> The change *ends the so-called key-man system* and *allows only randomly selected panels* to consider whether prosecutors have sufficient evidence for an indictment.
> 
> The current system, used in McLennan County for longer than longtime courthouse officials can remember, *will end in McLennan County on July 8, although the new law does not take effect until Sept. 1.*
> 
> The grand jury selected that day will serve for three months and work separately from the current grand jury.
> 
> *Texas is the last state that allows grand juries to be selected through the key-man method, a system its critics call pick a pal.*
> ...


So what does this mean? That they want more time to work with the Judge-appointed commissioner's grand jury choices, rather than allowing for a randomly-selected grand jury to decide on this case? 
According to the one comment on the story - Yes:



> _Jean Dodge · Rock and Roll High School_
> Short version: a hand-picked jury will be used to decide how or if to indict 177 arrested bikers, even though a new and more fair/ random system is now the law. This is technically legal but doesn't give the appearance of fairness or transparency, rather the opposite.


------
*UPDATE:*
Judge reverses decision, allowing for random-choosing of grand jury (July 7th)



> *WACO TWIN PEAKS JUDGE REVERSES DECISION TO EXTEND PICK-A-PAL GRAND JURY*
> by LANA SHADWICK7 Jul 2015
> http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/...al-grand-jury/


Result still suspicious!

----------


## devil21

^^^^^^^
They sure are working hard to keep this incident under wraps.

----------


## Anti Federalist

*Twin Peaks Shooting Just Got More Suspicious, Waco Cop Appointed as Jury Foreman in Biker Trial*

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/inj...zDBPRhCwDPF.99

Waco, Texas – The Waco Twin Peaks biker massacre case just took an extremely ominous, and seemingly corrupt turn. A police detective for the Waco Police Department was selected to serve as the head of the 12 person grand jury, which is likely to decide who gets indicted in the case.

Detective James Head, a 26-year police veteran, was wearing his police badge and pistol when he was sworn in Wednesday, according to the Waco Tribune-Herald.

When asked by the Waco Tribune-Herald if he had played a role in the Twin Peaks investigation, Head responded, “Not really.” With Head going on to admit that his selection was kind of “unusual.”

The extreme conflict of interest shown by the selection of Head to the grand jury – let alone serve as its foreman, reveals a blatant disregard for even the appearance of legitimacy in this case.

    “This has created a whole lot of problems for both sides of the bar in McLennan County, and for anyone one going in front of a grand jury and expecting to get a fair shake out of the grand jury,” said Bob Gill, a Fort Worth attorney representing two of the bikers. “This detective is going to know and be familiar with a lot of the people involved in the cases and the facts of a lot those cases. There’s an inherent conflict with anything that comes in front of that grand jury, at this point.”

The implications resulting from this decision are huge, as 177 bikers being charged with engaging in organized crime in the first-degree and facing life in prison as a result of the Twin Peaks massacre on May 17, which left 9 dead and 18 wounded.

The facts of the case are disputed with many insisting that the slain bikers were the victims of police violence, while police claim to have simply intervened to avert more bloodshed. The judge in the case has refused to allow surveillance footage of the killings to be shown to the media.

What’s certain is that not all 177 bikers arrested and incarcerated were involved in the violence that took place at Twin Peaks, with many being witnesses to the events of that day.

One has to seriously question why potential witnesses to murder were arrested simply because they had a vest on and if there was potentially an ulterior motive to locking up so many witnesses?

Could it perhaps be that police are attempting to coerce testimony from witnesses, under duress, to forward a narrative that would less implicate police in the biker massacre that took place?

As for the selection of Head, McLennan County District Attorney Abel Reyna told the Tribune-Herald, “That’s the system. He was chosen totally at random, like the law says.”

The judge in the case, Ralph Strother, claimed in a phone interview with WFFA, that the police officer was selected out of the 100 people summoned and that he sees no problem with the situation.

    “We took the first 12 people who were qualified,” Strother said. “They weren’t hand-picked. It was a completely random process. And a Waco police officer was among those, and so he was seated, just like any other citizen. […] Suppose if there’d been someone who was a member of a biker club, what do you think kind of criticism we would have received if I said, ‘No, no you can’t be on the grand jury, sorry.'”

The absurdity of the judges comments are clear!

Had a Cossack or Bandito member, which wasn’t at the restaurant the day of the incident, been one of the 100 random members summoned, the judge would have never seated them on the grand jury.

This case has been approached with very little in the way of transparency, since the beginning. Judging from the way this case has been handled thus far, it would seem that in Waco, Texas, the fix is in.

One thing is certain; the corrupt judicial system has no regard for the legal legitimacy of this case, nor the constitutional rights of the 177 people jailed illegitimately.

----------


## ClydeCoulter

> " Suppose if thered been someone who was a member of a biker club, what do you think kind of criticism we would have received if I said, No, no you cant be on the grand jury, sorry.'


Jury of Peers?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Jury of Peers?


Just-Us.

----------


## phill4paul

> Just-Us.


  In this case definitely judge, jury and executioner.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> Had a Cossack or Bandito member, which wasn’t at the restaurant the day of the incident, been one of the 100 random members summoned, the judge would have never seated them on the grand jury.


Exactly.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Exactly.


Just the Gang in Blue.

----------


## Valli6

> *LEAKED WACO VIDEO REVEALS LITTLE ON TWIN PEAKS SHOOTING*
> by BOB PRICE - 12 Jul 2015
> 
> The ninety minute video from a surveillance camera at *Don Carlos* Mexican restaurant reveals little, if any, new information about the police shootout at the neighboring *Twin Peaks* restaurant. That incident left nine people dead in May. The video was released by a Dallas law firm on Friday evening.
> 
> The security camera video (shown below), released by the law firm of *Broden, Mickelsen, Helms and Snipes*, is from the front door camera of Don Carlos. It shows the walkway leading up to the entrance and part of the parking lot. There is no audio associated with this video.
> 
> The shooting apparently begins at about the *1:34 second mark* in the video. A patron, standing calmly outside the Don Carlos restaurant, suddenly bolts for the door to take cover. Shortly after that, several bystanders as seen fleeing from the Twin Peaks parking lot into the Don Carlos parking lot seeking safety _(continued)_ 
> http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/...eaks-shooting/

----------


## Anti Federalist

Has any forensic evidence shown what weapons killed what people?

----------


## devil21

The law firm of Helms and Snipes eh?  

Now they're just $#@!ing with us.

----------


## tod evans

> Has any forensic evidence shown what weapons killed what people?


From their forensic teams?

Or entered into evidence in their courts?

I haven't seen anything proffered as legitimate......

----------


## Anti Federalist

> From their forensic teams?
> 
> Or entered into evidence in their courts?
> 
> I haven't seen anything proffered as legitimate......


Hell, from anybody.

----------


## pcosmar

> Hell, from anybody.


Nope.. not as far  as I know.

only the admission that some may have been killed by police. 
The autopsy report was noticeably vague.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> What's this? Texas has a "new system" for selecting grand juries? 
> 
> http://www.wacotrib.com/news/twin-pe...4618dfe53.html
> 
> 
> 
> *How the grand jury system has been changed.* (from the same article by Tommy Witherspoon).
> 
> 
> ...





> *Twin Peaks Shooting Just Got More Suspicious, Waco Cop Appointed as Jury Foreman in Biker Trial*
> 
> http://thefreethoughtproject.com/inj...zDBPRhCwDPF.99
> 
> Waco, Texas – The Waco Twin Peaks biker massacre case just took an extremely ominous, and seemingly corrupt turn. A police detective for the Waco Police Department was selected to serve as the head of the 12 person grand jury, which is likely to decide who gets indicted in the case.
> 
> Detective James Head, a 26-year police veteran, was wearing his police badge and pistol when he was sworn in Wednesday, according to the Waco Tribune-Herald.
> 
> When asked by the Waco Tribune-Herald if he had played a role in the Twin Peaks investigation, Head responded, “Not really.” With Head going on to admit that his selection was kind of “unusual.”
> ...


Ain't that something?

----------


## navy-vet

> Ain't that something?


Our Country is disappearing Gunny.

----------


## navy-vet

It's like a bad dream, one you can't awaken from

----------


## Free Radical

The true outlaws are opposition to the regime. No surprise "law enforcement" shot them.

----------


## osan

> Who says crime doesn't pay?


Most especially when you're in the right gang.

----------


## osan

> It's like a bad dream, one you can't awaken from


That's because is isn't a dream.  It is positive reality.  It is here.  In your face.  Coming to get YOU... sooner or later.  This is what the average American milquetoast refuses to see.  REFUSES.  Yes, milquetoast.  Why?  Because they can.  By the time that option will have gone the way of the dodo, it may be too late to avail oneself of their inner tiger.  No warning seems to suffice.  How odd, methinks.

----------


## osan

> *Twin Peaks Shooting Just Got More Suspicious, Waco Cop Appointed as Jury Foreman in Biker Trial...*
> 
> Waco, Texas – The Waco Twin Peaks biker massacre case just took an extremely ominous, and seemingly corrupt turn. A police detective for the Waco Police Department was selected to serve as the head of the 12 person grand jury, which is likely to decide who gets indicted in the case...
> 
> As for the selection of Head, McLennan County District Attorney Abel Reyna told the Tribune-Herald, “That’s the system. He was chosen totally at random, like the law says.”...
> 
> The judge in the case, Ralph Strother, claimed in a phone interview with WFFA, that the police officer was selected out of the 100 people summoned and that he sees no problem with the situation...


_REALLY?_

And the public response...

<crickets>

Now do you understand why I am so not optimistic about our future as free men?  I am very literal when I say that the people involved in this nonsense should, at the very least, be spending the rest of their lives in a cage, though better they hang from their necks until dead.  This runs right past insanity, which itself is standing there at the platform with that glazed Homer Simpson "whuhappunned" look on its face as the circumstance zoomed past.

----------


## tod evans

> _REALLY?_
> 
> And the public response...
> 
> <crickets>
> 
> Now do you understand why I am so not optimistic about our future as free men?  I am very literal when I say that the *people involved* in this nonsense should, at the very least, be spending the rest of their lives in a cage, though better they hang from their necks until dead.  This runs right past insanity, which itself is standing there at the platform with that glazed Homer Simpson "whuhappunned" look on its face as the circumstance zoomed past.


"They" cannot be found by any who would hold them accountable, this is by design.

Try in your town to locate the home address of a confidential informant, hell try to find the home address of a DA for that matter...

These "public servants" enact laws and edicts ensuring their "privacy" when in reality they're hiding from accountability.

----------


## navy-vet

> That's because is isn't a dream.  It is positive reality.  It is here.  In your face.  Coming to get YOU... sooner or later.  This is what the average American milquetoast refuses to see.  REFUSES.  Yes, milquetoast.  Why?  Because they can.  By the time that option will have gone the way of the dodo, it may be too late to avail oneself of their inner tiger.  No warning seems to suffice.  How odd, methinks.


It was a metaphor, a rhetorical expression, Osan. I wouldn't be too quick to judge some of us Americans ...we have a history of suddenly waking up and responding to being poked by our adversaries, with a "terrible resolve".
And. I'm not hearing "crickets" in here.

----------


## navy-vet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_(1946)
When the people have had enough.

----------


## SpiritOf1776_J4

think the best alternate source for coverage of this is: http://www.agingrebel.com/131224

----------


## Valli6

Cops that do press conferences are _always_ politicians.




> *Swanton Says Hell Run For Sheriff In 2016*
> 
> WACO _(July 27, 2015)_ *Sgt. W. Patrick Swanton*, the public face of the Waco police department, has announced he will face off against one-term incumbent *McLennan County Sheriff Parnell McNamara* for the countys top law enforcement office in the 2016 General Election.
> 
> Swanton filed required paperwork to begin his campaign on July 17 and in that document named *Kneeley Lawdermilk* as campaign treasurer.
> 
> Hell run on the countys Republican ticket.
> 
> I will officially launch my campaign in a couple of weeks but it is true that I intend to run for the office of McLennan County Sheriff, Swanton said Monday night.
> ...

----------


## tod evans

These motherfuckers are trying to change the focus from who killed people to what substances the dead had consumed.....


*Autopsy Reports Released in Waco Biker Shooting*

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/a...oting-33071001

Autopsy reports for nine people killed in a shootout involving bikers and police in Waco were released Thursday, nearly three months after the confrontation outside the Twin Peaks restaurant  but authorities still have not said who shot whom.

The autopsies, released by McLennan County Justice of the Peace Pete Peterson, showed that all nine were killed by gunshots, mirroring the results of preliminary reports released in May. Eighteen people were injured in the shootout.

Waco Sgt. Patrick Swanton declined to comment, citing a gag order in the criminal case of Matthew Clendennen, one of the 177 people arrested and jailed following the May 17 shootout on allegations of engaging in organized criminal activity. All but two of the 177 have been released, and no one has been formally charged.

"I can't make heads or tails of these, but it's not surprising that Waco authorities are less than forthcoming," Clendennen's attorney, Clint Broden, said of the autopsy reports.

Authorities say the May 17 shootout outside the Twin Peaks restaurant stemmed from an apparent confrontation between the Bandidos, classified as a gang by the Texas Department of Public Safety, and the Cossacks.

*The autopsies showed that at least four of the nine victims had illegal drugs in their system when they died,* (WTF does this have to do with who killed them?) but offer no indication about whether the nine were killed by other bikers or by police. Federal officials are also still conducting a ballistics investigation.

A firearms examiner would need physical evidence, including bullets and bullet casings, to make a determination about the firearms used, said Ramit Plushnick-Masti, a spokeswoman for the Houston Forensic Science Center, whose office was not involved in the case.

The autopsies were performed by the Southwestern Institute of Forensic Science in Dallas. The reports found that:

Daniel Boyett, 44, was shot twice in the head and once in the abdomen, and had trace amounts of methamphetamine in his system.

Wayne Lee Campbell, 43, died from a gunshot wound to the head.

Richard Matthew Jordan, 31, suffered one gunshot wound to the head, and tested positive for marijuana on a blood test.

Richard Vincent Kirschner Jr., 47, was shot three times, and toxicology tests found traces of cocaine and alcohol.

Jacob Rhyne, 39, died of gunshot wounds to the neck and abdomen.

Jesus Rodriguez, 65, died from gunshot wounds to the head and trunk.

Manuel Rodriguez, 40, died of gunshot wounds to the head and back.

Charles Wayne Russell, 46, was shot once in the chest, and tested positive for marijuana.

Matthew Smith, 27, was shot in the back and in the abdomen.

Several of the bikers arrested have evidentiary hearings scheduled for next week.

----------


## devil21

^^^^^^
The large scale equivalent of sprinkling some crack on the dead suspect.

----------


## phill4paul

> was shot twice in the head





> gunshot wound to the head





> suffered one gunshot wound to the head





> gunshot wounds to the head





> died of gunshot wounds to the head


  This wasn't done in a "shoot out."

----------


## devil21

All bikers out of jail, more info

http://www.wacotrib.com/news/twin-pe...bde48cc31.html

----------


## pcosmar

> All bikers out of jail, more info
> 
> http://www.wacotrib.com/news/twin-pe...bde48cc31.html


Said it before.
This is going to get interesting when it gets to trials,, if it ever sees a courtroom.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> All bikers out of jail, more info
> 
> http://www.wacotrib.com/news/twin-pe...bde48cc31.html





> “Assuming, if you are like me, that this is not going to end up with 177 convictions and 177 life sentences,” said Austin attorney Adam Reposa, who said his multiple Bandido clients were set to get their ankle monitors removed last week.
> 
> “It is going to end up pretty much the opposite,” he said. “So if you are the people who are prosecuting, you have to start culling cases that you are conceding. They realize they are not going anywhere with this particular individual, so eventually, they have to start letting go.
> 
> “That is what I see. We are starting the letting-go process, although they are not admitting they did something wrong. Oh God, no. They would never do that. I don’t think we will ever get to that point where they admit these people did nothing wrong and should never have been arrested,” Reposa said.


They'll never get any convictions. But punishment? Oh yeah, there's been plenty of punishment. Jail, injury and eight death penalties carried out on the spot.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> “That is what I see. We are starting the letting-go process, although they are not admitting they did something wrong. Oh God, no. They would never do that. I don’t think we will ever get to that point where they admit these people did nothing wrong and should never have been arrested,” Reposa said.


Why do you want to damage an officer's ego and make him doubt himself?

Then he'll end up "going fetal".

----------


## Anti Federalist

> That is what I see. We are starting the letting-go process, although they are not admitting they did something wrong. Oh God, no. They would never do that. I dont think we will ever get to that point where they admit these people did nothing wrong and should never have been arrested, Reposa said.


Why do you want to damage an officer's ego and make him doubt himself?

Then he'll end up "going fetal".

----------


## Root

> Those with ankle monitors paid $355, which includes a $100 installation fee, and then *$255 a month* for as long as they wear it, Marroquin said.


Anyone interested in investing in my new GPS ankle bracelet monitoring company?  I'm currently interviewing potential partners.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

Breaking: Get ready for video and news on this...

----------


## Brian4Liberty

Video link:
http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2015/10...andera-pkg.cnn

----------


## Brian4Liberty

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/29/us/tex...t-new-details/







> 'It was pretty horrific'
> 
> Wilson said it didn't take long for harsh words to turn into flying fists, and finally gunshots.
> 
> "I couldn't even see who threw the punch," he told CNN. "But I saw our guy's head go back, and it looked like he was getting ready to punch back whoever did it and a shot went off." He heard "a couple more shots, some scuffling around and then, almost instantly, gunfire just erupted from all around the perimeter."
> 
> The view from Wilson's vantage point was heart-stopping.
> 
> "I promptly got down on that sidewalk trying to avoid being hit myself," he told CNN. "At that time it was pretty horrific, there were guys getting hit, falling, and I realized that I needed to get away from where I was. I looked to the guy to my left, a good friend of mine, and said, 'We need to get off the sidewalk or we are going to die here.'"
> ...

----------


## tod evans

Funny how their video only shows bikers running away from the alleged "gunfight"......

Where's the video that shows the kops taking aim from cover and assassinating the bikers like fish in a barrel?

----------


## phill4paul

> Funny how their video only shows bikers running away from the alleged "gunfight"......
> 
> Where's the video that shows the kops taking aim from cover and assassinating the bikers like fish in a barrel?


  Not a damn thing in that article about the autopsy reports.....

----------


## devil21

You mean to tell me that grand jury that was headed up by a WACO POLICE DETECTIVE indicted 106 bikers on criminal charges and will likely do so to the other 77 as well?  The hell you say!  Of course no mention in the MSM article about the obvious conflict-of-interest.


Grand jury indicts 106 bikers in Waco "shootout" with Police
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/g...oting-35116628

----------


## pcosmar

> You mean to tell me that grand jury that was headed up by a WACO POLICE DETECTIVE indicted 106 bikers on criminal charges and will likely do so to the other 77 as well?  The hell you say!  Of course no mention in the MSM article about the obvious conflict-of-interest.


Yup,, and it could not be any more obvious. 

I really can't wait till this actually hits a courtroom. And the necessity of evidence becomes crucial.

----------


## navy-vet

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2015/10...andera-pkg.cnn

----------


## Suzanimal

4 Waco bikers killed in May shot by police rifles - report



> Four of the bikers who died in what the police called a gang shootout in Waco, Texas earlier this year may have been shot by police. The shots that killed them came from the same type of rifle the police used, new reports show.
> 
> A May 17 shootout at the Twin Peaks restaurant in Waco left nine bikers dead and about 20 wounded. Police have arrested nearly 200 people. At the time, Waco police said they confiscated “a thousand guns,” but had to revise that number down in the days since the gunfight.
> 
> Four of the dead bikers and at least one of the wounded were hit by bullets from .223-caliber bullets, the only weapon fired by Waco police officers that day, AP reported, citing ballistics reports and forensic evidence.
> 
> Two of the dead had wounds from only that kind of rifle bullets; the other two were shot by other guns as well. The rest of the victims were killed by bullets fired from a variety of other guns, AP noted, adding it was not clear whether any of the bikers arrested at Twin Peaks had .223 caliber rifles. Among the 400 or so weapons seized by the police were 12 “long guns,” according to the agency.
> 
> The ballistics analysis was conducted by the Southwestern Institute of Forensic Sciences.
> ...

----------


## devil21

That picture looks so fake.  The bar doesn't have a front door?  Just some cobbled together wood planks secured by a plastic sheet?  Looks like a photoshop job.

----------


## tod evans

Merry $#@!in' Christmas.......


*Waco Blunders Through Its 'Biker Shootout' Investigation*

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...gation/421587/

The criminal-justice system in Waco, Texas, continues to boggle the mind. Last month, a grand jury in McClellan County held a marathon session to consider whether District Attorney Abel Reyna had presented enough evidence to justify indictments in the shootout at a May gathering of bikers where nine people were killed. In the wake of those killings, 177 bikers were arrested. Many proclaimed their innocence, and local authorities faced criticism for jailing so many individuals using fill-in-the-blank paperwork that didn’t differentiate among the jailed.

Still, the November grand jury session returned 106 indictments at the end of one day, some against unknown figures who hadn’t previously been arrested. And the citizen jurors would reconvene at a later date to consider the fate of 80 additional bikers. This, despite the fact that leaked surveillance footage certainly seems to depict many bikers who look surprised that bullets are flying and unprepared for a gunfight, not as if they were conspiring to murder a bunch of their rivals:

That more than 100 indictments were issued anyway wasn’t really surprising. Yes, local authorities had misbehaved repeatedly during their investigation––and yes,  grand juries theoretically do offer innocents protection from being tried based on flimsy evidence. But in practice, it is scandalously easy to secure an indictment.

Even so, one detail from Waco is extraordinary. On November 16, a blog called The Aging Rebel, written by a biker who has been following the case, noticed that “the indictments charge at least some of the defendants with murder and assault rather than just the original charge of engaging in organized criminal activity. The indictments name ten murdered persons. Those victims’ names are: Richard Matthew Jordan II; Jesus Delgado Rodriguez; Charles Wayne Russell; Daniel Raymond Boyett; Wayne Lee Campbell; Jacob Lee Rhyne; Richard Vincent Kirschner, Jr.; Manuel Isaac Rodriguez; Matthew Mark Smith; and William Anderson. Anderson’s name had not been previously associated with the other murder victims.”

Indeed, the inclusion of that 10th name was very weird.

Authorities in Waco had consistently referred to nine dead from the outset. Who was this 10th dead man, William Anderson? The bikers and their attorneys were confused, but were barred from speaking out to the press thanks to a dubious gag order.

It took until four days ago for the Waco Tribune to notice: “While authorities have said for months that nine bikers died in the May 17 Twin Peaks shootout, indictments in the cases attribute a 10th death to the melee.” The newspaper asked the cops about the mystery man, but they said they were only aware of nine deaths. The district attorney’s office didn’t return phone calls. Prosecutors wouldn’t comment. 

The truth finally reached the public in a classic “Friday news dump”:

District Attorney Abel Reyna acknowledged Friday that a clerical error resulted in a 10th dead biker's name to be included among some of the indictments returned against 106 bikers in the Twin Peaks shooting.  Only nine bikers were killed in the shootout on May 17th…

Reyna released a statement on the error Friday:

"The inclusion of the '10th dead biker' in some of the Twin Peaks indictments was a clerical error on our part that can and will be corrected at a later date closer to trial.  The additional name has absolutely no effect on the charges or the viability of those indictments. I regret this minor error has shifted focus away from the violent and dangerous crimes that occurred in the heart of our community on May 17, 2015."
These people are entrusted with charging murders in a state with the death penalty. Their due diligence is sufficiently inadequate that individuals totally innocent of murdering William Anderson––and known to be innocent of that by everyone––still find themselves on the wrong end of an indictment for that crime. And an indignant district attorney calls that “a minor error”!

Dubious behavior by the Waco authorities hardly ends there. From the start, they’ve actively suppressed evidence, making it impossible for the public to know how many of the nine dead bikers were shot by other bikers and how many were shot by police. In September, I noted an Associated Press report that the gunfire that day “included rounds fired by police that hit bikers, though it isn't clear whether those rifle shots caused any of the fatalities.”

Earlier this month, the AP got even more specific information:

FORT WORTH — Four of the nine people killed in a melee between rival biker gangs outside a Texas restaurant were struck by the same caliber of rifle round fired by Waco police, according to evidence obtained by The Associated Press that provides the most insight yet into whether authorities were responsible for any of the deaths and injuries. The latest trove of potential grand jury evidence reviewed by the AP depicts a chaotic, bloody scene in which police swarmed into the shootout — which also left about 20 wounded and nearly 200 people arrested — between rival biker gangs on May 17 outside the Twin Peaks restaurant.

Hours of audio and footage and hundreds of documents including ballistics reports show that four of the dead and at least one of the wounded were struck with bullets from .223-caliber rifles — the only type of weapon fired by police that day.

Two of the four dead had wounds from only that kind of rifle; the other two were shot by other kinds of guns as well. The ballistics reports show that the rest of the people killed were shot by a variety of other guns.
One presumes that the armed bikers were carrying handguns, not rifles. So it seems very likely that between two and four of the dead bikers were killed by the police. Hopefully, the cops killed bikers who were armed and actively shooting others, not innocents. Yet if there were nine bikers killed, the cops killed between two and four of them, and the bikers they shot were themselves in the act of shooting when stopped by law enforcement, the gulf between the number of murders and the number of people charged seems even wider. (I also wonder if, when the AP reports that .223-caliber rifles were “the only type of weapon fired by police that day,” that includes ATF agents and all other law-enforcement officials responding to the scene.)

In cities around the country, pressure from media outlets and protesters has forced police departments to acknowledge reports of wrongdoing that would otherwise have been suppressed. The killings of Laquan MacDonald and Noel Aguilar are two recent examples. With nine dead, the likelihood that some died by police bullets, a concerted campaign to suppress evidence, many official screw-ups, and more than 100 people facing charges, the fact that the aftermath of the Waco shootout hasn’t garnered more press attention or spurred more protests is a hugely unfortunate mistake.

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## Brian4Liberty

CNN is showing an hour long special on this shootout right now.

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## tod evans

I hope somebody tubes it...........

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## pcosmar

*Questions remain over Waco biker shooting*
http://www.expressnews.com/news/loca...ng-7513302.php



> No trial dates have been set for the 157 people later indicted, despite pleas from defense lawyers for their day in court.
> 
> Authorities still have not spelled out who among the bikers is believed to have shot, stabbed or punched another, and who may have been killed or wounded by police.
> 
> The names of the officers involved in the shooting remain secret, and officials won’t say if their actions were ever reviewed by internal affairs or a grand jury.
> 
> Even where and how trials would be held is unclear. McLennan County’s historic domed courthouse, built in 1901, seems far too small to handle so many defendants and lawyers, let alone spectators and media.


Questions remain.

now that is an understatement

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## phill4paul

> *Questions remain over Waco biker shooting*
> http://www.expressnews.com/news/loca...ng-7513302.php
> 
> 
> Questions remain.
> 
> now that is an understatement


 


> In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial,...


  Well, maybe not _all_....

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## fisharmor

What's that thing Tod keeps saying?
Oh yeah, "Justice will not be found in their courts".

You should put it in your sig, Tod....

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## asurfaholic

The "authorities" in Waco will burn in hell for this $#@!.

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## pcosmar

Said before,, a trial will be interesting.

Evidence must be presented.

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## Brian4Liberty

> I hope somebody tubes it...........


Some footage at these links:

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2016/05...ge-orig-mg.cnn

The report had new footage that showed a couple of bikers who had guns, one actively shooting, who were "dropped" in a single shot. One might guess that they were shot by the Police snipers.

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## pcosmar

> Some footage at these links:
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2016/05...ge-orig-mg.cnn
> 
> The report had new footage that showed a couple of bikers who had guns, one actively shooting, who were "dropped" in a single shot. One might guess that they were shot by the Police snipers.


Since the original story has been thoroughly debunked,,

The question is,, Who was the provocateur? and did they have any connection to Law Enforcement. ( I suspect so)

A trial may force some light on the subject.

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## phill4paul

> Bikers Sue Cops for $1 Billion Over ‘Witch Hunt’
> Four men say they were wrongfully arrested when they rode into a deadly firefight between motorcycle gangs in Waco—their attorney says it’s more like Salem, Mass.
> 
> They brought raffle tickets to a gunfight.
> 
> Four members of the Grim Guardians motorcycle club showed up to Twin Peaks restaurant in Waco, Texas, on May 17, 2015, for a meeting about state politics, they claim. 
> Instead, rival motorcycle gangs opened fire on each other before police moved in.
> 
> They walked into gunfire, and they left in handcuffs.
> ...


http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...ver-witch-hunt

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## Anti Federalist

> It is the “worst police operation initiated by law enforcement in the history of Texas, including the fiasco of the Branch Davidian storming that killed dozens of innocent women and children outside of Waco over 20 years ago (which resulted in far more civilian casualties than the recent gas attacks by Assad of Syria),” said Beaumont attorney Brent Coon, in a press release.


Damn right.

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## Valli6

Been wondering what ever happened with this. Found a story from November about the first trial of a biker ending in a mistrial. Also some December stories about withheld evidence, and alleged corruption of _McLennan County District Attorney_ *Abel Reyna*.




> *Mistrial in Waco biker shootout trial leaves 154 suspects in limbo*
> _Nov. 12, 2017_
> John Bacon USA today
> 
> The first trial stemming from a bloody biker gunfight at a Waco restaurant that left nine people dead and 20 wounded has done little to determine the fate of more than *150 people indicted* in the complex and controversial Texas case.
> 
> A judge on Friday declared a mistrial in the case of *Jake Carrizal*, president of the Dallas Bandidos motorcycle club, who could face life in prison if he ultimately is convicted on three counts stemming from the melee on *May 17, 2015*.
> 
> The jury deliberated for 14 hours before telling Judge Matt Johnson it was hopelessly deadlocked. McLennan County District Attorney Abel Reyna declined to comment after Johnson declared a mistrial, so it was not clear if Carrizal will be tried again. *All the defendants were charged with engaging in a criminal activity leading to the deaths.*
> ...


Here's a _list_ of more recent headlines from the Wacotrib - http://www.wacotrib.com/news/twin-peaks-biker-shooting/




> *Affidavit alleges FBI probe into DA Reyna's activities 'ongoing'*
> By TOMMY WITHERSPOON  
> _Dec 12, 2017_
> 
> A *federal public corruption investigation* of McLennan County District Attorney *Abel Reyna* that reportedly involves his *dismissing criminal cases for friends and donors* remains ongoing, *according to a sworn affidavit from a former veteran police detective* filed Tuesday in two Twin Peaks shootout cases.
> 
> *Retired Waco police Detective Sherry Kingrey* said in the sworn statement, dated Dec. 11, that she provided information about Reyna and his close friends, who Kingrey said were organizers of an *illegal gambling operation in Waco*, to FBI agent Fred Rhea.
> 
> Rhea, in turn, put Kingrey in touch with FBI agent Dan Brust, Kingreys affidavit said.
> ...





> *DPS attorney claims Reyna urged Ranger to withhold evidence in Twin Peaks trial*
> By TOMMY WITHERSPOON 
> _Dec 8, 2017_
> 
> A *Texas assistant attorney general said in a secretly recorded conversation* that McLennan County District Attorney *Abel Reyna* urged a Texas Ranger to withhold evidence from Twin Peaks defendant Jacob Carrizals trial team and said Reyna is deluded and cant be trusted... _(more)_ 
> 
> http://www.wacotrib.com/news/courts_...4554ef118.html





> *Twin Peaks attorneys seek withheld evidence*
> By TOMMY WITHERSPOON 
> _Dec 5, 2017_
> 
> Attorneys for three bikers arrested after the Twin Peaks shootout are seeking evidence they claim is being withheld by McLennan County District Attorney Abel Reynas office.
> 
> Attorneys for *William Chance Aikin*, *Jorge Daniel Salinas* and *Billy Jason McRee* all filed motions Tuesday asking judges to order the DAs office to disclose additional evidence, including evidence previously withheld and *not disclosed until the middle of Dallas Bandidos chapter President Jacob Carrizals trial, which ended in a mistrial* last month.
> 
> Seizing on motions filed by other attorneys, the lawyers allege current and former members of Reynas staff have cooperated, and possibly still are cooperating, in a reported federal investigation of Reyna on allegations that he showed favoritism to friends and campaign donors for political gain.
> ...

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## Anti Federalist

*More Charges Dropped in Multi-Year Prosecution of Bikers Indiscriminately Arrested in the Waco Mass Shooting Case*

http://reason.com/blog/2018/02/09/mo...lti-year-prose

Brian Doherty|Feb. 9, 2018 3:25 pm

This week, the Waco Tribune reports, charges against 13 of the men were dismissed.

ABC News has some maddening background on the case:

    Ballistics evidence showed that police bullets struck four bikers, killing at least two of them. The three officers involved in the shooting were no-billed by a grand jury after being cleared by an internal investigation.

    Nearly three years later, only one biker, Dallas locomotive driver and Bandido chapter president Christopher "Jake" Carrizal, has been tried. Carrizal's November trial resulted in a mistrial when jurors were unable to reach a unanimous verdict. The second biker set for trial rejected a plea deal in December.

    "The way people were arrested was fairly indiscriminate—it was predictable that some of these cases would be dropped," said Sandra Guerra Thompson, a University of Houston law professor, adding, "I wouldn't doubt if we see more."...

    More than 100 bikers, including 11 whose cases were dismissed Thursday, have civil suits pending against Reyna's office and the Waco police department claiming that they were wrongfully arrested.

    A federal judge in Austin had stayed the cases pending the outcome of their criminal cases.

Brian Bouffard, an attorney representing one of the bikers, is convinced that those charges were dropped this week because McLennan County D.A. Abel Reyna wanted to avoid having harmful testimony come to light at a scheduled hearing. Abel's office has been simultaneously recused from two other ongoing biker arrests in the case. And prosecutor Michael Jarrett says eight more pending cases against bikers arrested that day won't be going forward.

Jorge Salinas, one of the men whose case was dismissed, points out something worth remembering: Even if you aren't eventually convicted, casual arrests followed by insanely long resolutions can have destructive effects on people's jobs, finances, and living situations. Don Tittle, who is representing many arrested bikers engaged in the ongoing federal civil rights lawsuit against local officials, refers rightly to the "never-ending legal limbo in which they have found themselves trapped."

Bouffard was bold enough in a press conference to refer to D.A. Reyna as the very definition of the "domestic enemy of our Constitution" that his client Salinas, a decorated Marine combat veteran, swore an oath to fight.

According to the Tribune, Bouffard and other biker attorneys say Reyna only did the case-dropping and recusing "to prevent the adverse testimonies of former and current members of his staff, some of whom have reported alleged abuses of his office to Texas Rangers and the FBI."

"Abel Reyna arrested, charged, and indicted a very large number of these men for purely political reasons, apparently without any intent to take them to trial," said Bouffard.

*Tittle, the lawyer in the civil rights suit, told the Tribune that "Reyna's lawyers have used the criminal cases as an excuse to prevent us from going forward with the civil cases. Sooner than later, I believe that a day of reckoning is coming for Mr. Reyna and the others that perpetrated this mass injustice."

Most of the arrested seem by available evidence to be guilty of little other than being in a place where violence broke out (and was then worsened by police behavior). For more, see a plethora of Reason clips on police and prosecutorial misconduct in this incident and its aftermath, including gag orders, insanely high bonds, no concern for the wounded, and unconscionable delays in actual prosecution.
*

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## pcosmar

Waco.

It haz a history.

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## phill4paul

> Waco.
> 
> It haz a history.


  Hopefully by the end of this it will have to declare bankruptcy.

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## Anti Federalist

*Bikers Help Primary Opponent Defeat Texas Prosecutor In Waco*

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2018/03/07/b...cutor-in-waco/

March 7, 2018 at 3:19 pm

WACO (CBSDFW.com/AP) — Voters have routed the Texas prosecutor pursuing charges against more than a hundred bikers in cases stemming from a fatal 2015 shootout involving bikers and police outside a restaurant in Waco.

Local bikers heartily campaigned for Abel Reyna’s Republican opponent in Tuesday’s primary election. The result means attorney Barry Johnson will run uncontested for McLennan County district attorney in November.

The shooting left nine bikers dead and 20 injured. Investigators say it was sparked by tensions between the Cossacks and Bandidos motorcycle groups.

More than 150 bikers were originally indicted, accused of engaging in organized criminal activity. The only case to go to trial so far resulted in a mistrial in November. Reyna recently dismissed 26 other cases.

Johnson has criticized Reyna’s handling of the cases and pledged to take a fresh look if elected.

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## tod evans

*Special prosecutor dismisses Hewitt biker’s Twin Peaks case*

http://www.kwtx.com/content/news/Spe...k_KWTX_News_10

WACO, Texas (KWTX) The Twin Peaks case involving Hewitt resident Matthew Alan Clendennen was dismissed Monday by the special prosecutor who was appointed to try the case after the local district attorney stepped away from it.

Brian M. Roberts, the attorney who was appointed to prosecute the Clendennen case, signed the dismissal form which states: “After reviewing all the facts, circumstances and evidence, it is the state’s position that no probable cause exists to believe the defendant committed the offense.”

Roberts said the case was dismissed “with prejudice”, which means it cannot be re-called or re-filed and henceforth is moot.

Clendennen and his attorney, F Clinton Broden, of Dallas, have led the charge among Twin Peaks defendants who have been trying to change the perception of the Twin Peaks prosecutions.

“Now, almost three years later, after the filing of numerous speedy trial demands and countless motions in the trial court, the recusal of the trial judge, the recusal of the district attorney, and three trips to the Court of Appeals, the saga is over for Matt Clendennen,” Broden said in a news release issued Monday.

The Clendennen case, among several that were assigned to prosecutors outside District Attorney Abel Reyna’s office after Reyna recused himself, is the first of those that was independently reviewed outside of Reyna’s office.

“The special prosecutors make clear in their motion that the case against Mr. Clendennen is being dismissed based upon the lack of probable cause and with prejudice,” Broden’s release said.

“After being arrested with a ‘fill-in-the-name’ arrest warrant, being held in jail for three weeks on a $1,000,000 bond and being held hostage for three years despite making several demands for a speedy trial, I am hopeful the civil courts will ultimately provide justice for Matt,” Broden said.

“We also must never forget that nine people died at Twin Peaks. Nevertheless, because of the reckless actions on the part of the District Attorney in advocating for wholesale arrests rather than the particularized arrests of the individual suspects, those nine families may be denied justice,” Broden said.

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## pcosmar

They never had a Case..

This was a Political attack,,instigated by police..

Not one case will ever see a trial.. that would require evidence.

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## phill4paul

> *Special prosecutor dismisses Hewitt biker’s Twin Peaks case*
> 
> http://www.kwtx.com/content/news/Spe...k_KWTX_News_10
> 
> WACO, Texas (KWTX) The Twin Peaks case involving Hewitt resident Matthew Alan Clendennen was dismissed Monday by the special prosecutor who was appointed to try the case after the local district attorney stepped away from it.
> 
> Brian M. Roberts, the attorney who was appointed to prosecute the Clendennen case, signed the dismissal form which states: “After reviewing all the facts, circumstances and evidence, it is the state’s position that no probable cause exists to believe the defendant committed the offense.”
> 
> Roberts said the case was dismissed “with prejudice”, which means it cannot be re-called or re-filed and henceforth is moot.
> ...


 _ You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tod evans again._

  Someone help a brother out? Thanks for the update. I think Pete's right. The tax payers in Waco have no idea how much their property tax is getting ready to go up.

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## Swordsmyth

> _ You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tod evans again._
> 
>   Someone help a brother out? Thanks for the update. I think Pete's right. The tax payers in Waco have no idea how much their property tax is getting ready to go up.


covered.

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## tod evans

*DA dismisses remaining 24 Twin Peaks biker cases*

https://www.wacotrib.com/news/da-dis...d33560735.html


Almost four years after nine bikers were killed and 20 were injured during a shootout at the former Twin Peaks restaurant in Waco, McLennan County District Attorney Barry Johnson said Tuesday he will dismiss all criminal cases against the remaining 24 defendants charged in the midday brawl. 

Johnson inherited the Twin Peaks cases when he took office in January, and said he has spent 75 percent of his time since then with a team of prosecutors and investigators trying to determine how to resolve the remaining cases. 

Johnson's decision Tuesday means that no one will be held accountable for the multiple deaths or injuries or for the chaotic battle between heavily armed, rival motorcycle clubs waged in a crowded shopping center parking lot while families were on their way to lunch after Sunday church. 

In announcing his decision, Johnson said it is time to "end this nightmare that we have been dealing with in this county since May 17, 2015." 

"There were nine people who were killed on that fateful day in Waco, Texas, and 20 injured, all of whom were members of rival motorcycle clubs/gangs, and the loss of life is a difficult thing," Johnson said. "But after looking over the 24 cases we were left with, it is my opinion as your district attorney that we are not able to prosecute any of those cases and reach our burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt." 

About 200 bikers were arrested after the shootout on identical charges of engaging in organized criminal activity and held on $1 million bonds each. Former McLennan County District Attorney Abel Reyna sought indictments against 155 bikers on those identical charges and chose to try Jacob Carrizal, the Bandidos Dallas county chapter president, first. 

Carrizal's case ended in mistrial in November 2017, with most of the jurors in his case favoring acquittal, and no other defendant has been tried since. 

The way Reyna handled the Twin Peaks cases was the centerpiece of Johnson's campaign, and he defeated Reyna in the March 2018 Republican primary by 20 percentage points. After the primary, Reyna dismissed all but 24 of the remaining Twin Peaks cases. The special prosecutors appointed to handle four of the cases after Reyna recused his office also were critical of the manner in which the cases were handled and dismissed them, also. 

Reyna sought to re-indict the remaining two dozen, mostly on riot charges. Other charges that may have been possible arising out of the melee, such as attempted murder, aggravated assault or felon in possession of a firearm, were barred by three-year statutes of limitation before Johnson took office, he said. 

"Following the indictments, the prior district attorney had the time and opportunity to review and assess the admissible evidence to determine the full range of charges that could be brought against each individual who participated in the Twin Peaks brawl, and to charge only those offenses where the admissible evidence would support a verdict of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt," Johnson said in a statement. 

"In my opinion, had this action been taken in a timely manner, it would have, and should have, resulted in numerous convictions and prison sentences against many of those who participated in the Twin Peaks brawl. Over the next three years the prior district attorney failed to take that action, for reasons that I do not know to this day," he said. 

Carrizal is among those whose cases are to be dismissed. Johnson noted that his trial cost $1 million in preparation and trial costs, plus an additional $500,000 in security and overtime pay after county officials ratcheted up security for his trial. 

"To open that Pandora's Box back up and start down that road again when we don't feel that, after looking at the facts and the evidence, that we would be able to meet our burden of beyond a reasonable doubt would be irresponsible, in my opinion. Therefore, I am making the decision now to end this nightmare that we have been dealing with in this county since May 17, 2015," Johnson said. 

While the criminal cases will be dismissed, more than 130 of the bikers have civil rights lawsuits pending against Reyna, former Waco Police Chief Brent Stroman, the city of Waco, McLennan County and individual local and state officers who were involved in the arrests. 

Dallas attorney Don Tittle represents about 120 of the bikers in their civil lawsuits.

“Maybe if law enforcement had stuck with the original plan to focus on individuals who might have been involved in the violence and let the rest of the motorcyclists go after being interviewed, things would have gone differently," Tittle said. "It’s hard to imagine that turning the operation into a dragnet wasn’t a major distraction for the investigation, not to mention a public that grew increasingly skeptical as this thing played out. All this for an ill-advised attempt to prove an imaginary conspiracy theory, which to this day there’s not a shred of evidence to support.”

Bandidos who cases will be dismissed include: Ray Allen of Krum; Jeff Battey, Ponder; Jacob Carrizal, Dallas; John Guerrero, San Antonio; David Martinez, Terrell; Tom Mendez, San Antonio; Marshall Mitchell, Longview; Jerry Pierson, no address available; Marcus Pilkington, Mexia; Glenn Walker, Copperas Cove; and Reginald Weathers, Forney. 

Cossacks with cases set for dismissal include: Mitchell Bradford, Gordon; Aaron Carpenter, Gatesville; Roy Covey, Clifton; William Flowers, no address available; Rich Luther, Cossack; Wesley McAlister, Gilmer; Jacob Reese, Mount Pleasant; Owen Reeves, Bruceville; Timothy Satterwhite, Gordon; and Kyle Smith, Kilgore.

Others whose cases will be dismissed include Richard Cantu, a Machateros from San Antonio; Nathan Champeau, a Scimitar from McKinney; and Richard Lockhart, a Companero with no available address.

----------

