# Start Here > Guest Forum >  America has the highest gun violence in the world

## 56ktarget

Why do Libertarians continue to delude themselves about the dangers of guns?

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## Neil Desmond

Why do you only point out murders committed using guns?  Does it not matter when other means are used to commit murder?  To me this illustrates why we need to get rid of gun bans and gun restrictions, along with doing away with a bunch of things that the socialist leaning oppressors have done to our country to screw it up to produce a situation that results in these kinds of stats for the US.

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## GunnyFreedom

And yet when you count "all homicides" the United States barely makes the list.  Imagine that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate

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## GunnyFreedom

> Why do you only point out murders committed using guns?  Does it not matter when other means are used to commit murder?  To me this illustrates why we need to get rid of gun bans and gun restrictions, along with doing away with a bunch of things that the socialist leaning oppressors have done to our country to screw it up to produce a situation that results in these kinds of stats for the US.


Aye, if not for all the gun bans we'd have all but the lowest rate in the world.

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## 56ktarget

Even using that metric, the picture is not pretty:

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## VIDEODROME

dat American Exceptionalism

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## 56ktarget

> Why do you only point out murders committed using guns?  Does it not matter when other means are used to commit murder?  To me this illustrates why we need to get rid of gun bans and gun restrictions, along with doing away with a bunch of things that the socialist leaning oppressors have done to our country to screw it up to produce a situation that results in these kinds of stats for the US.


I think this is a informative article on the matter: http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com...ed-states.html

Murders with firearms are almost 8x those done with knives.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Even using that metric, the picture is not pretty:


For some reason, the UNODC rates posted on wiki bear no resemblance to the UNODC rates on your chart.  Oh, that's right, you posted GUN-related homicides again.

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## 56ktarget

Thats right, I am talking about GUN violence.

But I will humor you nonetheless:

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## Neil Desmond

> I think this is a informative article on the matter: http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com...ed-states.html
> 
> Murders with firearms are almost 8x those done with knives.


I'm also referring to how murder (committed either with or without guns), violence, crime (i.e., people vitcimized), etc. in countries with gun bans and gun restrictions compare to countries with less or no gun bans or gun restrictions.

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## Neil Desmond

http://handgundefense.com/facts.htm

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## GunnyFreedom



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## silverhandorder

56k can you break down gun death's of victim vs assailant? If not that is not really relevant.

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## KCIndy

> Why do Libertarians continue to delude themselves about the dangers of guns?



Dude.  Seriously.

You're brand new.  You just register.  You don't bother to introduce yourself.  Then you immediately toss out the following threads:


*Why did the economy boom during the 1950's when the top tax rate was 91%?

America has the highest gun violence in the world

Do Libertarians support the Citizens United decision?

Why do other countries with "socialized medicine" have better health care?

Obama is not a liberal

Libertarian policies were already tried... It was called the Articles of Confederation*


It's clear you understand that RPF is a libertarian/anarchist/voluntaryist minded forum.  It's equally clear you have an immense dislike for all things libertarian.  

If you are here to have a civil exchange, share a few ideas and promote your own statist viewpoint, and if you want to do it in earnest and really be a part of this community, you're off to a very bad start.

[delete]


(Just thought I would re-post this here in case you missed it in your other threads!)

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## Natural Citizen

If you outlaw guns then only outlaws will have guns. I read that on a bumper sticker some place. Is true.

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## Root

This thread needs more pretty graphs.

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## Demigod

Did not know that crime in Finland was that bad,that is if those statistics are actually true because I don't see Russia,South Africa or Brazil anywhere and I expect them to top every category.

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## pcosmar

> Did not know that crime in Finland was that bad,that is if those statistics are actually true because I don't see Russia,South Africa or Brazil anywhere and I expect them to top every category.


You also don't see *crimes by Government* against the people recorded.

The governments compile these statistics,, based on *Reported* crimes. They don't include their own crimes against the populations.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Did not know that crime in Finland was that bad,that is if those statistics are actually true because I don't see Russia,South Africa or Brazil anywhere and I expect them to top every category.


If you are talking about my charts, pretty sure the ones I found are of OECD countries, of which neither Russia, SA, or Brazil are part of.

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## Root

> You also don't see *crimes by Government* against the people recorded.
> 
> The governments compile these statistics,, based on *Reported* crimes. They don't include their own crimes against the populations.


Truth.  The number of people killed by Government every year is staggering.  Well past what us mundanes could ever do.  The real problem isn't a lack of gun control, it's a lack of government control.

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## Ronin Truth

How many of the ~300 million currently privately owned US firearms have never nor will never shoot anyone?  99+%?

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## Ronin Truth

DEATH BY GOVERNMENT
http://reviveamerica.us/DEATH_BY_GOVERNMENT.pdf

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## jmdrake

> Why do Libertarians continue to delude themselves about the dangers of guns?


In the overall murder rate, the U.S. is nowhere near the top.  So why do liberals want more people to be killed by machete?

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## jmdrake

> I think this is a informative article on the matter: http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com...ed-states.html
> 
> Murders with firearms are almost 8x those done with knives.


That's because people have access to guns.  Few criminals are going to choose a knife as their main weapon when it's possible that their target might pull a gun.  Compare that to the U.K. when two Islamists stabbed a British soldier to death and then cut off his head in broad daylight and stood around and debated the justness of their actions to an unarmed public.  Or look at Rwanda where 800,000 people were killed in a matter of months mostly by use of machete.  This is why gun control is stupid.

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## Acala

Let's get some historical perspective.  In the last century governments around the world have slaughtered more of their own people than all the individual criminals in history probably by a factor of ten.  Yet your proposal is to make sure that only governments have guns and that private individuals (often the victim of government violence) have no effective means of self-defense.  I think that is a stupid idea.

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## jllundqu

> Why do Libertarians continue to delude themselves about the dangers of guns?


Wow.... another talking points memo from the uninformed left.

[delete]

If you'd bother to look up how many gun-related deaths were attributed to convicts/recidivist douchebags you might change your tone.  What are the cities with the most liberal/progressive gun control policies in the country?  

Detroit, Chicago, New Orleans, DC.

If you removed those cities from the list, The U.S. would be 4th from the bottom.  How's that gun control working for you? lol

The only way to end gun violence (from the progressive point of view) is to remove guns or make them illegal to own.  Follow that to a logical conclusion.  How many guns are in circulation today in the U.S.?  Hundreds of millions.  So what is the solution?  Mass gun confiscation?  Martial Law?  Voluntary surrender of firearms?  The majority of the country likes the 2nd amendment just like it is.  Will criminals just up and say "Well I was going to buy a glock from my neighbor, but now it's 'illegal' so I can't... dangit!" ?  Will the prohibition of firearms lead to more gun violence and a black market unlike anything the country has ever seen?  WIll our prisons become more full for non-compliance?

I will let the Nuge explain this point further...

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## brushfire

http://www.gunfacts.info/

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## GunnyFreedom

> Wow.... another talking points memo from the uninformed left.
> 
> If you'd bother to look up how many gun-related deaths were attributed to convicts/recidivist douchebags you might change your tone.  _What are the cities with the most liberal/progressive gun control policies in the country?  
> 
> Detroit, Chicago, New Orleans, DC.
> 
> If you removed those cities from the list, The U.S. would be 4th from the bottom.  How's that gun control working for you? lol_
> 
> The only way to end gun violence (from the progressive point of view) is to remove guns or make them illegal to own.  Follow that to a logical conclusion.  How many guns are in circulation today in the U.S.?  Hundreds of millions.  So what is the solution?  Mass gun confiscation?  Martial Law?  Voluntary surrender of firearms?  The majority of the country likes the 2nd amendment just like it is.  Will criminals just up and say "Well I was going to buy a glock from my neighbor, but now it's 'illegal' so I can't... dangit!" ?  Will the prohibition of firearms lead to more gun violence and a black market unlike anything the country has ever seen?  WIll our prisons become more full for non-compliance?
> ...


Bolded section bears repeating.

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## brushfire

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...Crime-Violence

Harvard did a study on it too...  Cited breitbart deliberately.  You may still obtain the source material from Harvard.

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## Todd

> If you outlaw guns then only outlaws will have guns. I read that on a bumper sticker some place. Is true.


I think that's a fair question to pose the OP

What does the OP propose to get rid of *all* Firearms.   I'm not just talking about confiscation into the hands of one group for safekeeping or regulation.  I'm talking of actually destroying all ability to produce firearm technology.   If he's really serious about how dangerous gun violence is and it is just Libertarians who are deluding ourselves, then it is safe to say that ALL people should never have them.   That the guns in the hands of anyone are dangerous.   

What is that proposal?   

I'll wait.

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## matt0611

How much of it is related to the war on drugs? End it...

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## RickyJ

How many are gun violence from police officers? 

You think Israel doesn't have a lot of gun violence? I guess the IDF shooting Palestinian kids as target practice doesn't count as gun violence there.

The chart is worthless without a breakdown of the gun violence categories and without the qualifications for what is considered gun violence and what isn't.

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## dannno

> Even using that metric, the picture is not pretty:


You used the wrong metric.

We want to see ALL murders, who cares if they use a gun? It's about the murder and crime rate, not the rate at which people kill others with guns.

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## cjm

> 56k can you break down gun death's of victim vs assailant? If not that is not really relevant.


This^ 




> How many are gun violence from police officers? 
> 
> You think Israel doesn't have a lot of gun violence? I guess the IDF shooting Palestinian kids as target practice doesn't count as gun violence there.
> 
> The chart is worthless without a breakdown of the gun violence categories and without the qualifications for what is considered gun violence and what isn't.


and this^

I've seen this argument used for decades.  The list of "homicides" always includes "justifiable homicides" as an argument against gun ownership.

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## Bryan

> Why do Libertarians continue to delude themselves about the dangers of guns?


56ktarget,

Thank you for being concerned about this issue, murder is a terrible thing and certainly no one wants to see one of their loved ones murdered. To directly answer your question, I don't know anyone who is delusion on the dangers of guns, guns are designed to hurt/kill, so they are inherently dangerous. Most people know this.

Since we both agree this is a terrible thing it should be worth addressing how to solve the problem. As with all issues, I work off a simple  process to find a solution, the first two steps are:
1. Understand and respect the natural rights bestowed upon us as related to the issue.
2. Devise good government policy (which does not violate step #1).

The first step is very important as without respect for our natural rights we would be subjects to the whim of others demands, and would live in bondage. This is the foundation for the principles of liberty, some detail can be found here: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/content...13-Why-Liberty

Further, respect for individual liberty is also the foundation of this country, and is codified as law in various means. To level-set on natural rights for this issue, I present two thought questions you can answer:
- Should a human being have the right to own property?
- Should a human being have the right to defend themselves?

We could go into extensive detail here but what you will find is that a free man has the natural right to own guns. Please let me know if you would like to discuss this. From here, whatever our position is, as we are founded on being a free country, we must respect peoples ownership of guns.

On to the second step... Certainly you've heard the old cliche that "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." Well, there is truth to that, and it is the other part of the equation to the gun-related murder rate so this could be a good place to investigate to help derive good policy. Of course, policy that doesn't violate ones natural right to own guns.

Perhaps it would be worth looking into culture and societal differences to help explain the trend lines. I've been to Japan recently and it's really no surprise that they don't even register on this chart as the behavior of the average person that I saw or interacted with had traits that were very polite, outstanding, non-violent and so-on. I've also been to a handful of the European counties low on the list and can see similar trends as well (though not the same as in Japan).

So perhaps we could derive some policy that could better direct people away from wanting to murder, again however, this would have to be done in a way that does not step on others natural rights. For example, calls to ban / restrict violent video games (on a federal level) would  step on others natural rights to own property. Regardless, there is room for a lot of discussion and debate here, and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. I personally think there is a massive failure in the government run education system. The fact that's it's based on the Prussian education model doesn't help- so this is one area I would start. Are you fimilar with the Prussian education model?


If you're thinking that some type of gun control would be a quick fix, and you're not willing to respect what others claim as a natural right then I've got some questions I'd like you to answer:

- How would you propose that guns be rounded up?
- Would you expect for everyone to comply and turn their guns in?
- Would you support going door to door to confiscate guns if people did not turn them in?
- Would you support breaking into peoples homes if they did not answer the door?
- Would you support using aggressive measures against individuals to separate them from their guns within their homes?
- Would you support killing gun owners if needed to get their guns?
- Do you support an ideology that generates war? If you answer "yes" to the previous question you are in fact foresting war. As well, if you're willing to fully disregard what others consider as a natural right, you're fostering war.
- Would you be willing to do this confiscation / killing yourself, or would you want someone to do it on your behalf?
- With a gun ban, would you support any government agents having guns?
- Do you trust government agents to have guns while others are unarmed?
- If so, is it because government agents have some prescribed loyalty or training that could never be matched by a non-government agent?
- Could you explain why you'd support allowing government agents to have guns while citizens don't?
- Are you aware that governments that have disarmed their citizens have murdered them in the tens of millions?

These are most serious questions.

I look forward to your response. Thank you.

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## Dianne

Don't believe one statistic coming out of the mouth of the Federal Government...    When you have mafia running the government, the Congress, the Administrative Branch; what is said, is pure propaganda ..    Don't believe anything the Feds say about anything.    They are criminals that wish to do you harm... that knowledge will set you free !!

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## Pericles

Unlike the rest of the "civilized" world, in the United States, criminals tend to get shot. The US has many problems, and I contend that one of those problems is not enough of the right sort of gun violence. It would sort out a great deal of mischief.

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## Todd

> 0 Friends 
> 
> 
> 
> 56ktarget has not made any friends yet


...

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## Dary

I'm supposed to believe that gun violence is greater in the U.S. than opposed to some place like, hmmm, I don't know....Syria?

I don't need a chart in order to cry BS.

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## Czolgosz

> Why do Libertarians continue to delude themselves about the dangers of guns?



lol.

I'm too lazy to make an attempt at fixing dumb, but if one of you kind and energetic folks out there would fix the scale (left hand side) on his biased chart, even "gun-related murders" would be hilariously laughable.

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## James Madison

How many of those countries are also fighting a failed drug war?

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## osan

> Why do Libertarians continue to delude themselves about the dangers of guns?


Why do trolls like you persist in vomiting up this brand of nonsense that has been resoundingly disproven over and over again?

I suspect you and "The economist" are one and the same... or are at least reach-around buddies.

No time to waste with the likes of you.

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## IBleedNavyAndOrange

Gun banners are such cowards. Such a joke. Logic, reason and sense have no place when listening to a gun banner's monologue.

If some gang bangers in Chicago start stabbing one another, would you support coming to my house and taking all my knives?

Same question but substitute with hammers.

Same question but substitute with baseball bats.

And if not, why not? Don't you care about people? Do you want people to die? What about the children?

If someone gets drunk and drives and kills people, will you propose to steal my car? And if I object will you try to put me in a cage?

And what to do if a criminal tries to enter my home? Do I call the police? Why? Is it because criminal's respect the law so much that when I mention I'm calling the police they'll stop breaking the law? Or is the purpose of calling the police to have an armed response?


Thought so.

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## heavenlyboy34

> Gun banners are such cowards. Such a joke. Logic, reason and sense have no place when listening to a gun banner's monologue.
> 
> If some gang bangers in Chicago start stabbing one another, would you support coming to my house and taking all my knives?
> 
> Same question but substitute with hammers.
> 
> Same question but substitute with baseball bats.
> 
> And if not, why not? Don't you care about people? Do you want people to die? What about the children?
> ...


This brings up a good point-many multitudes more people are killed on American streets and highways directly because of automated vehicles.  Why not ban the deadliest weapon of them all-the automobile engine!

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## azxd

Critical thinking is no longer taught in school.
Indoctrination and outcome is about 1.5 generations away.

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## GunnyFreedom

> This brings up a good point-many multitudes more people are killed on American streets and highways directly because of _automated vehicles._  Why not ban the deadliest weapon of them all-the automobile engine!


Have you come back from the future?

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## Dianne

That's because we have more baddies in the world; we must defend ourselves against.    None of Obama and George Bush's false flags could have ever been pulled off; if there were a couple of concealed carry people in the area.     Obozo and his clowns want to make sure they can instill the fear of god in us; by hiring crisisactors.org to stage some major production on a weekly basis that is alleged to take out innocent people.    

I'm not sure if you guys have noticed, but every false flag; staged event like the TSA agent killing another TSA agent; and the dude who is purported to have shot a couple of people at the shopping mall .. and a couple of others.. can't remember which since so many.... all coincidently had drills of the event a week before.

Now I don't know how anyone is believing any of these all day news events ... I certainly don't.     I've heard interviews in a number of these staged events, and a number interviewed said they would not have known what to do if it wasn't for the drill they had just days before it actually happened.

More power to Obama..   He's a pathalogical liar; but his audience are pathalogical idiots.

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## Carson

Wonder what it would look like if it included drones.

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## Carson

> Why do Libertarians continue to delude themselves about the dangers of guns?



** Excluding Mexico.*

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## eduardo89

> ** Excluding Mexico.*


I didn't know Mexico was a developed country.

Anyway, yes, Mexico has much higher gun murder rate than the US. In 2010 there were over 10,000 *reported* homicides involving guns in the country.

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## asurfaholic

> 56ktarget,
> 
> Thank you for being concerned about this issue, murder is a terrible thing and certainly no one wants to see one of their loved ones murdered. To directly answer your question, I don't know anyone who is delusion on the dangers of guns, guns are designed to hurt/kill, so they are inherently dangerous. Most people know this.
> 
> Since we both agree this is a terrible thing it should be worth addressing how to solve the problem. As with all issues, I work off a simple  process to find a solution, the first two steps are:
> 1. Understand and respect the natural rights bestowed upon us as related to the issue.
> 2. Devise good government policy (which does not violate step #1).
> 
> The first step is very important as without respect for our natural rights we would be subjects to the whim of others demands, and would live in bondage. This is the foundation for the principles of liberty, some detail can be found here: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/content...13-Why-Liberty
> ...


I co-sign this.

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## Original_Intent

> Even using that metric, the picture is not pretty:


Again, specifies GUN related homicides.

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## Pericles

Gun control is based on the idea that someone, somewhere did something bad, so the thing to do is to punish everyone who didn't commit the original act.

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## Neil Desmond

> Gun control is based on the idea that someone, somewhere did something bad, so the thing to do is to punish everyone who didn't commit the original act.


I think it's more than that, because if it was just that basic then why isn't there a push to ban automobiles for things like road rage, drunk driving accidents, highway injuries and deaths, etc?

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## puppetmaster

> Why do Libertarians continue to delude themselves about the dangers of guns?


guns can be dangerous.....government with an unarmed populace is much more dangerous. I opt for the less dangerous.

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## Verrater

> 


I hate that I can't give you more reputation at this time.

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## Neil Desmond

> I hate that I can't give you more reputation at this time.


I gotcha covered.

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