# News & Current Events > World News & Affairs >  The REAL Gaddafi and what he wanted to do?

## Magicman

He wanted to unite Africa in a gold standard to get them out of debt slavery. His nation was the richest out of all in Africa. Whatever he did he was serving his people, NATO is a criminal organization. F' them.

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## Magicman



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## lucky_bg

+ rep

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## HOLLYWOOD

Who gave this thread One Star?

Here another reporting on the real deal...

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## Travlyr

Wow. Amazing.

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## Zippyjuan

Yep- a desirable economy we should try to emulate. Government spending also makes up 43% of GDP- higher than the 38% of GDP in the US (though not by a ton).  Government much more involved in people's and business's lives there too. 

("Freedom scale" goes up to 100 with 100 indicating the most freedom- their overall score ranks them as #173 globally)

http://www.heritage.org/index/country/Libya



> Investment Freedom  10.0 no change
> 
> Foreign investment does not receive national treatment, and new investment is screened by the government. At least 35 percent of a non-Libyan business must be controlled by Libyan individuals or companies. Bureaucracy is non-transparent, complex, inefficient, and subject to political influence. Residents and non-residents may hold foreign currency accounts with prior approval. Repatriation and most capital transactions, including transactions involving capital, credit operations, and direct investment, are subject to controls, including approval requirements. Foreigners may not own land in most cases.
> 
> VisualizeView Methodology
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...

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## Magicman

Bump

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## jason43

The "rebels" also apparently moonlight in the banking industry as they took the time out to create a central bank mid-revolution, before they even took the country over.

Its almost funny to watch them celebrate, knowing that they are soon to be exploited by the international banking cabal, and that foreign oil companies are going to rape them, and the fact that NATO really isnt in the business of putting 'nice' puppet governments in. They like guys that cut heads off with swords to keep the people in line. 

Qadaffi may well have been a $#@!head and a tyrant for some in Libya, but I'm not thinking Thomas Jefferson Muhammed is going to be their next president and create a model of freedom over there. 10 years from now it will be worse, I'd put $100 on it.

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## Cutlerzzz

Some of you make my head hurt sometimes. 

Gaddafi, who was a dictator, a socialist, a known supporter of terrorism, who had innocent people killed, and ran a tyranical government, was a good guy according to some of you. 

I'm sure that there will be a group of people posting about this in the comment sections of articles on other websites, that go something along the lines of "Gaddafi was a good guy set up by the NWO. He wanted peace, gold, and freedom. RON PAUL 2012!!!", giving Paul supporters (and Paul by extension) a bad name. I'm also sure that some on this website will now accuse me of being involved in an international conspiracy theory to overthrow the US government and create a one world government, or at least declare me to be ignorant and have no understanding of the world.

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## anaconda

Great videos all!

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## bill1971

> Some of you make my head hurt sometimes. 
> 
> Gaddafi, who was a dictator, a socialist, a known supporter of terrorism, who had innocent people killed, and ran a tyranical government, was a good guy according to some of you. 
> 
> I'm sure that there will be a group of people posting about this in the comment sections of articles on other websites, that go something along the lines of "Gaddafi was a good guy set up by the NWO. He wanted peace, gold, and freedom. RON PAUL 2012!!!", giving Paul supporters (and Paul by extension) a bad name. I'm also sure that some on this website will now accuse me of being involved in an international conspiracy theory to overthrow the US government and create a one world government, or at least declare me to be ignorant and have no understanding of the world.


CLAP CLAP CLAP
Well said. I was just thinking the same thing.

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## anaconda

> CLAP CLAP CLAP
> Well said. I was just thinking the same thing.


No clapping from me. This was a CIA-NATO coup to keep African oil traded in U.S. dollars. It is disgusting, illegal, and immoral. Obama should be impeached. We should be out of NATO and the UN immediately. This is terribly serious $#@!. The chiding that Ron Paul supporters are "pro Gaddafi" is offensive and absurd.

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## Rosenzweig

> No clapping from me. This was a CIA-NATO coup to keep African oil traded in U.S. dollars. It is disgusting, illegal, and immoral. Obama should be impeached. We should be out of NATO and the UN immediately. This is terribly serious $#@!. The chiding that Ron Paul supporters are "pro Gaddafi" is offensive and absurd.


The coup was horrible, unconstitutional, and corporatist, but that doesn't excuse Gaddafi from criticism. I believe people are way too focused on the fact that he was trying to make a gold standard currency (I'm not saying that it isn't big) and the cons aren't talked about at all.

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## Matthew5

It's like trying to decide who's the best mobster. They're all murders and crooks. lol

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## WilliamC

Why am I not surprised?

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## phill4paul

> Gaddafi, who was a dictator, a socialist, a known supporter of terrorism, who had innocent people killed, and ran a tyranical government, was a good guy according to some of you.


  Well, apparently the U.S. Government considered him a good guy at least since 2004. We pretty much ended any sanctions and rescinded its designation as a state sponsor of terrorism. Everything had been pretty hunky-dory. Until, this rapid turn-about. It's things like this that make me go...hmmmmmmm.

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## Carson

Thanks original poster.

When this all started an African friend mentioned that what was happening didn't seem to make sense to him. He said it was one of the wealthiest countries around there. 

At least I'm thinking it was Libya.

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## Carole

> No clapping from me. This was a CIA-NATO coup to keep African oil traded in U.S. dollars. It is disgusting, illegal, and immoral. Obama should be impeached. We should be out of NATO and the UN immediately. This is terribly serious $#@!. The chiding that Ron Paul supporters are "pro Gaddafi" is offensive and absurd.


I, too, have had my suspicions. Several months back when this all started in Libya, I was very skeptical. When I started researching, I, too, found that film of him riding through the pristine streets of the town. I read his Green Book. I wanted to know immediately if a central bank had been installed there after the coup and of course, there was. Just like with Saddam Hussein in Iraq, first thing they installed a central bank. In both cases, these dictators were abandoning the dollar. 

I am glad that someone else found the video and decided to post it. Beautiful city will likely be ruined under the new regime. People's lives will never be the same. And we all must be skeptical of why, again, Gadaffi was assassinated instead of being granted a trial, so that all his skeletons might be revealed perhaps. Rather like Bin Laden perhaps. Were they killed for what did or for what they didn't do? Were they killed so that the world could never know the truth? I do not know, but will always be suspicious. Just as I am suspicious of the so-called attempted murder of the Saudi diplomat. And the murder of the American in Yemen.

My question is this: Are we going around the world manufacturing all these coups and chaos for the wrong reasons? Just asking the question tends to suggest the answer.

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## Matthew5

> Some of you make my head hurt sometimes. 
> 
> Gaddafi, who was a dictator, a socialist, a known supporter of terrorism, who had innocent people killed, and ran a tyranical government, was a good guy according to some of you.




*I'm Barack Obama...and I approve this message!*

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## Carson

I remember this quote from a story on the Internet. The tone of some of the story didn't set well with me but some of the things said I've never been able to shake.

_There are now only 5 nations on the world left without a Rothschild controlled central bank: Iran; North Korea; Sudan; Cuba; and Libya._

http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBr...Rothschild.htm

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## LibForestPaul

> Well, apparently the U.S. Government considered him a good guy at least since 2004. We pretty much ended any sanctions and rescinded its designation as a state sponsor of terrorism. Everything had been pretty hunky-dory. Until, this rapid turn-about. It's things like this that make me go...hmmmmmmm.


exactly 40yrs, we had no problem...now ...he's evil and must go ...blow up an airliner, no problem
$#@! with our oil and dollar and international banking cartel, problem

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## Zippyjuan

> exactly 40yrs, we had no problem...now ...he's evil and must go ...blow up an airliner, no problem
> $#@! with our oil and dollar and international banking cartel, problem


Um. It was because of things like blowing up airliners that he was on the doodoo list in the first place.

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## Cutlerzzz

Some posters on this board are pathetic, and have no concept of liberty. It's amazing that to some of you, only the US government is evil. Not every government (violent monopoly), just the US government. 

Gaddafi was one of the most evil men in the world. He was a socialist, a killer, a terrorist, and a dictator. The first video was bragging about how great his socialist economy is, full of free houses, electricity, health care, and a free $50,000 dollars at the tax payers expense. Anyone who endorses the policies Gaddafi passed is nothing more than a socialist, and a bigger one than Obama could dream of being.

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## PierzStyx

> Some of you make my head hurt sometimes. 
> 
> Gaddafi, who was a dictator, a socialist, a known supporter of terrorism, who had innocent people killed, and ran a tyranical government, was a good guy according to some of you. 
> 
> I'm sure that there will be a group of people posting about this in the comment sections of articles on other websites, that go something along the lines of "Gaddafi was a good guy set up by the NWO. He wanted peace, gold, and freedom. RON PAUL 2012!!!", giving Paul supporters (and Paul by extension) a bad name. I'm also sure that some on this website will now accuse me of being involved in an international conspiracy theory to overthrow the US government and create a one world government, or at least declare me to be ignorant and have no understanding of the world.


Remember people, the guy was an evil a-hole and teh very essence of everything anthetical to the cause of America, freedom, and teh Constitution. These videos show not the goodness of Gaddafi but the true reasons we went to war with him, over gold and money. But that doesn't mean he was a good guy, just that our government lies.

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## Cutlerzzz

> Remember people, the guy was an evil a-hole and teh very essence of everything anthetical to the cause of America, freedom, and teh Constitution. These videos show not the goodness of Gaddafi but the true reasons we went to war with him, over gold and money. But that doesn't mean he was a good guy, just that our government lies.


Both governments are wrong, and the US government was motivated by money, as always. I don't question that at all.

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## dbill27

Some of you guys aren't getting the point. No one is arguing that he was a good guy. What we are saying is that there are a lot of evil dictators in the world and we're friends with lots of them as we were with this guy. But why is it that we decide to turn around and invade some and not others. The motivations are important and telling. In fact, for public opinion's sake, would it not make sense for us to install someone evil in every country in order to never draw much criticism for taking him out when he crosses our currency or the banks?

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## Seraphim

Gaddaffi's goodness or evilness will never really be known by us mundanes in the West. We are painted a portrait - one that is perpetually incomplete.

The idea of consolidating an African Union based on a gold-oil trade was simply not acceptable to the MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX of the "West".

The plan would have bankrupted the US Military so thoroughly that spending a few billion fiat dollars to bomb their existence into oblivion was a much "better" idea. 

A US military unable to crusade through the Middle East is a nightmare for Isreal. That is all that needs to be known.

Only once the restoration of sound money is implemented at the grass roots level will this madness stop. No Government can try, no leadership can try - they will be executed OVER and OVER and OVER. 

*There is only one person on the planet that can stop this. YOU.* 

BLEED THE LEGAL TENDER/FIAT/AUTHORITARIAN BANKING SYSTEM DRY. BUY GOLD. BUY SILVER. VALUE YOU IT IN FOOD, REAL ESTATE, OIL - ANYTHING BUT GOVERNMENT FIAT.

There is simply NO other option. Waiting for the Government (OR EVEN RON PAUL) to save you will leave you running underwater. YOU are the only solution...just you...

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## Cutlerzzz

> Some of you guys aren't getting the point. No one is arguing that he was a good guy.


That was CLEARLY the argument made. In his original post he stated that Gaddafi was serving his people, the video endorsed his socialist economic policies, as well as Gaddafi himself. The video talks about his courage and integrity, and stated several times that he works for Libyan people's best interests. The video applauded his socialist policies of nationalized health care, nationalized education, welfare, free cars, $50,000 dollar handouts, and central banking. It speaks favorably about how Libyans "shared their wealth (through these redistributionist policies)". It babbles on about how Gaddafi, the dictator, supports "Direct Democracy (one of the most tyranical forms of government)", and how that makes him a good guy.

You people need to stop it. You're embarrassing yourselves.

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## Griffith

> Some of you make my head hurt sometimes. 
> 
> Gaddafi, who was a dictator, a socialist, a known supporter of terrorism, who had innocent people killed, and ran a tyranical government, was a good guy according to some of you. 
> 
> I'm sure that there will be a group of people posting about this in the comment sections of articles on other websites, that go something along the lines of "Gaddafi was a good guy set up by the NWO. He wanted peace, gold, and freedom. RON PAUL 2012!!!", giving Paul supporters (and Paul by extension) a bad name. I'm also sure that some on this website will now accuse me of being involved in an international conspiracy theory to overthrow the US government and create a one world government, or at least declare me to be ignorant and have no understanding of the world.


But what business is it of ours? That's the issue. I battle with the popular opinion that you described too. In my opinion he was killed for three reasons:

1. Oil
2. Planned gold currency that would upset certain powerful nations' economic interests
3. Spoke about JFK assassination and other things at the UN

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## Griffith

> Some posters on this board are pathetic, and have no concept of liberty. It's amazing that to some of you, only the US government is evil. Not every government (violent monopoly), just the US government. 
> 
> Gaddafi was one of the most evil men in the world. He was a socialist, a killer, a terrorist, and a dictator. The first video was bragging about how great his socialist economy is, full of free houses, electricity, health care, and a free $50,000 dollars at the tax payers expense. Anyone who endorses the policies Gaddafi passed is nothing more than a socialist, and a bigger one than Obama could dream of being.


Again, what business is it of ours? Who made it our job to go around the world killing the "bad" people. Think about this and you'll have your answer.

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## Griffith

> That was CLEARLY the argument made. In his original post he stated that Gaddafi was serving his people, the video endorsed his socialist economic policies, as well as Gaddafi himself. The video talks about his courage and integrity, and stated several times that he works for Libyan people's best interests. The video applauded his socialist policies of nationalized health care, nationalized education, welfare, free cars, $50,000 dollar handouts, and central banking. It speaks favorably about how Libyans "shared their wealth (through these redistributionist policies)". It babbles on about how Gaddafi, the dictator, supports "Direct Democracy (one of the most tyranical forms of government)", and how that makes him a good guy.
> 
> You people need to stop it. You're embarrassing yourselves.


Those claims are reactionary. All you hear everywhere in the media is how this guy is another "evil dictator" that the U.S. needs to kill and people instantly stop thinking. They were trying to demonstrate that the way he is painted in the propaganda campaign used to justify the conflict is not necessarily correct. But go ahead and believe what you believe and don't change your mind.

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## Cutlerzzz

I don't endorse any interventionism. None the less, that does not make Gaddafi any less evil. Gaddafi is as rotten as it gets, and the OP's video was made by an outright, hardcore, socialist that CLEARLY endorsed him. 

I consider calling killers evil part of my free speech, and don't feel like sitting by on the Ron Paul forums as this monster is commended.




> Those claims are reactionary. All you hear everywhere in the media is how this guy is another "evil dictator" that the U.S. needs to kill and people instantly stop thinking. They were trying to demonstrate that the way he is painted in the propaganda campaign used to justify the conflict is not necessarily correct. But go ahead and believe what you believe and don't change your mind.


Anyone who claims to be a Ron Paul supporter should hate Gaddafi MORE after watching that video. Those policies go to show that the main stream media is right about one thing; Gaddafi is a tyrant.

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## Griffith

> I don't endorse any interventionism. None the less, that does not make Gaddafi any less evil. Gaddafi is as rotten as it gets, and the OP's video was made by an outright, hardcore, socialist that CLEARLY endorsed him. 
> 
> I consider calling killers evil part of my free speech, and don't feel like sitting by on the Ron Paul forums as this monster is commended.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone who claims to be a Ron Paul supporter should hate Gaddafi MORE after watching that video. Those policies go to show that the main stream media is right about one thing; Gaddafi is a tyrant.


I haven't seen any reason why he's an "evil tyrant". Seems like the media's gotten to you and you can't alter your opinion. How much MSM have you consumed about the Libya confict? Be honest.

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## Danke

> Some of you make my head hurt sometimes. 
> 
> Gaddafi, who was a dictator, a socialist, a known supporter of terrorism, who had innocent people killed, and ran a tyranical government


Proof he supported "terrorism"?

But by your definition, we should be violently overthrowing the rulers in Washing D.C.  Go for it.

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## Cutlerzzz

> I haven't seen any reason why he's an "evil tyrant". Seems like the media's gotten to you and you can't alter your opinion. How much MSM have you consumed about the Libya confict? Be honest.


I don't watch the mainstream media, unless it is Paul related. 




> The video talks about his courage and integrity, and stated several times that he works for Libyan people's best interests. The video applauded his socialist policies of nationalized health care, nationalized education, welfare, free cars, $50,000 dollar handouts, and central banking. It speaks favorably about how Libyans "shared their wealth (through these redistributionist policies)". It babbles on about how Gaddafi, the dictator, supports "Direct Democracy (one of the most tyranical forms of government)"


If this goes over your head, I cannot help you.

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## Cutlerzzz

> Proof he supported "terrorism"?
> 
> But by your definition, we should be violently overthrowing the rulers in Washing D.C.  Go for it.


Most of the people in DC absolutely deserve it. I would prefer peaceful, and more realistic measures, however.

If you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend that Gadaffi was a good man, go ahead.

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## anaconda

> My question is this: Are we going around the world manufacturing all these coups and chaos .


Yes. And you are very evolved in your thinking.

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## Echoes

When RP becomes president i hope he goes after obama for war crimes. Bush and Clinton too. I was rooting for Kaddafi, his fight against the NWO is inspiring. 

Listen up Iran, get the BOMB quick before the Global Mafia comes after you too!!

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## Danke

> Most of the people in DC absolutely deserve it. I would prefer peaceful, and more realistic measures, however.
> 
> If you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend that Gadaffi was a good man, go ahead.


And if you want to pretend he was a threat to you, go ahead and take up arms.  Maybe the Chinese will take out your Governor and a few of your family members to liberate you.

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## Cutlerzzz

> And if you want to pretend he was a threat to you, go ahead and take up arms.  Maybe the Chinese will take out your Governor and a few of your family members to liberate you.


Pretend Gadaffi was a threat to me? I never made any such claim and never believed him to be a threat to the United States. He was, however, a threat to his own people.

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## Danke

> Pretend Gadaffi was a threat to me? I never made any such claim and never believed him to be a threat to the United States. He was, however, a threat to his own people.


And I'm sure they will be better off now that we have murdered him.

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## Echoes

> And I'm sure they will be better off now that we have murdered him.


Yeh, just like Egyptians are better off now without Mubarek

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## Cutlerzzz

> And I'm sure they will be better off now that we have murdered him.


I doubt that they will. They are trading a murderous secular socialist for a democracy run by theocrats and Al Qaeda.

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## Danke

> I doubt that they will. They are trading a murderous secular socialist for a democracy run by theocrats and Al Qaeda.


So I'd better:




> If you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend that Gadaffi was a good man


No.  But maybe they would have been better if left alone and their infrastructure was not destroyed under Gadaffi.

And again, what proof do you have of these terrorists acts that Gadaffi was currently launching or planning against the US that was such a threat to our well being?  Does that justify over 60,000 dead over there and counting, plus the economic ruin?

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## Cutlerzzz

> So I'd better:
> 
> 
> 
> No.  But maybe they would have been better if left alone and their infrastructure was not destroyed under Gadaffi.
> 
> And again, what proof do you have of these terrorists acts that Gadaffi was currently launching or planning against the US that was such a threat to our well being?  Does that justify over 60,000 dead over there and counting, plus the economic ruin?


Where do you get this idea that I support war with Libya? I promote peace, hence my opposition to Gadaffi. 

Here is a brief, heavily cited wikipedia article about Gadaffi's various terrorist connections

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadaffi...ored_terrorism

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## Dark_Horse_Rider

> I don't watch the mainstream media, unless it is Paul related. 
> 
> 
> 
> If this goes over your head, I cannot help you.


Where you get your info regarding the situation in Libya and Qaddafi ?

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## Mozart

Really... Then explain why at the start of the conflict more than 1/6 of the population gathered in Tripoli to protest against UN and rebel action against Gaddafi? Why Are there reports of " hundreds of people" celebrating his death meanwhile mass protests being planned  within the next few days because he was killed... You should do some research before you claim Gaddfai was a bad man, everything he has done has pointed to being a great leader.. I suggest you research all possible sources and not just the MSM pro Banking cartel NWO articles... interesting that US spent 664million on the libyan war.. Uk 400 million and France over 200 million.

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## Danke

> Where do you get this idea that I support war with Libya? I promote peace, hence my opposition to Gadaffi. 
> 
> Here is a brief, heavily cited wikipedia article about Gadaffi's various terrorist connections
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadaffi...ored_terrorism


wikipedia?!?!  YGTBSM

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## Mozart

"The United States restored its diplomatic relations with Libya during the Bush administration, removing Libya from its list of nations supporting terrorism." How convenient.

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## Cutlerzzz

> wikipedia?!?!  YGTBSM


Every claim is cited. Problem?

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## Dark_Horse_Rider

“Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations — entangling alliances with none, I deem [one of] the essential principles of our government, and consequently [one of] those which ought to shape its administration.”  

Words of Wisdom.

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## Cutlerzzz

> Where you get your info regarding the situation in Libya and Qaddafi ?


Well, the video supporting him in the OP, for starters. Zippyaun showed just how unfree their economy is, secondly.

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## Cutlerzzz

> Really... Then explain why at the start of the conflict more than 1/6 of the population gathered in Tripoli to protest against UN and rebel action against Gaddafi? Why Are there reports of " hundreds of people" celebrating his death meanwhile mass protests being planned  within the next few days because he was killed... You should do some research before you claim Gaddfai was a bad man, everything he has done has pointed to being a great leader.. I suggest you research all possible sources and not just the MSM pro Banking cartel NWO articles... interesting that US spent 664million on the libyan war.. Uk 400 million and France over 200 million.


Popularity makes him pro liberty? I guess North Korea is the freest place in the world then, because Kim has a 100% approval rating.

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## Echoes

This was clearly an attack by the global bank cartels. I hear ppl often mention how politicians are 'bought and paid' by special interests, which is true, but folks have to realize NATIONS are bought and paid too. They take their orders from the money masters who are slowly but surely taking over the entire planet.

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## Mozart

> Well, the video supporting him in the OP, for starters. Zippyaun showed just how unfree their economy is, secondly.


Unfree? Wow, Libya is one of the few countries that rejected IMF, Central banking... 

State Loans up to 200k interest free

Do you not agree with the true motive for Libyan intervention is Oil, installation of a central bank and removing Gaddafi because he rejected the Banking Cartels? 

WOW, the exact day Gaddafi is killed the IMF is ready to open business.. it's disgusting.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...79J0UB20111020

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## Dark_Horse_Rider

> Well, the video supporting him in the OP, for starters. Zippyaun showed just how unfree their economy is, secondly.


I am not trying to paint him in any way, but i will tell you it is indeed difficult to get a clear picture of something through some youtube videos and wikipedia. 

One thing that i do know is that the major media outlets are manipulating their subscribers view of reality and events.

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## Mozart

> Popularity makes him pro liberty? I guess North Korea is the freest place in the world then, because Kim has a 100% approval rating.


The Fact that over a million people are willingly protesting and defending their leader tells you alot does it not? MEanwhile the rebels were having protests that including 500-600 people... Lol.
I am not sure if you are purposely being ignorant or if you truly believe that Gaddafi was this evil monster that the MSM and the western powers have made him out to be. You are a RP supporter should you not realize by now that the MSM caters to the elitists, NWO and banking cartels. Once again i suggest you go read some REAL articles and not more of the propaganda which you are willingly being spoon fed.

The FBI was even responsible for paying people 4 million dollars to testify against Gaddafi in the Pan am flight 103 bombing.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...industry.libya

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## Cutlerzzz

> Unfree? Wow, Libya is one of the few countries that rejected IMF, Central banking... 
> 
> State Loans up to 200k interest free
> 
> Do you not agree with the true motive for Libyan intervention is Oil, installation of a central bank and removing Gaddafi because he rejected the Banking Cartels? 
> 
> WOW, the exact day Gaddafi is killed the IMF is ready to open business.. it's disgusting.
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...79J0UB20111020


State loans up to 200k free? Who's money is that? That is proof that they are not free. 

I don't believe that US had any intent of helping the Libyan people. I believe that it was a war to secure resources, to "spread democracy" as far as some are concerned, and to take out a country that did not bow to the global establishment.

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## Cutlerzzz

> I am not sure if you are purposely being ignorant or if you truly believe that Gaddafi was this evil monster that the MSM and the western powers have made him out to be. You are a RP supporter should you not realize by now that the MSM caters to the elitists, NWO and banking cartels. Once again i suggest you go read some REAL articles and not more of the propaganda which you are willingly being spoon fed.
> 
> The FBI was even responsible for paying people 4 million dollars to testify against Gaddafi in the Pan am flight 103 bombing.
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...industry.libya


Here you are defending a socialist with an article from the main stream media. Gasp!

Do you have any evidence that Libya was not a socialist state, that gave people government houses, government college, government healthcare, government welfare, government cars, had a central bank, restricted freedom of speech, implemented price controls, supported terrorism, was heavily militarized, and had one of the highest spending rates in the world?

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## Mozart

> State loans up to 200k free? Who's money is that? That is proof that they are not free. 
> 
> I don't believe that US had any intent of helping the Libyan people. I believe that it was a war to secure resources, to "spread democracy" as far as some are concerned, and to take out a country that did not bow to the global establishment.


Umm what? how does that prove they are not free.. there is no interest. Gaddafi used the oil money from his country to offer the people these options...Explain to me how interest free loans does not indicate a sense of freedom compared to the interest rated loans of the rest of the world?

So you are agreeing with me? So then what exactly are you arguing?

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## Cutlerzzz

> Umm what? how does that prove they are not free.. there is no interest. Gaddafi used the oil money from his country to offer the people these options...Explain to me how interest free loans does not indicate a sense of freedom compared to the interest rated loans of the rest of the world?
> 
> So you are agreeing with me? So then what exactly are you arguing?


The government providing loans is an inherent attack on freedom. They are dilluting the store of wealth of everyone else that has money through counterfitting.

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## Mozart

> Here you are defending a socialist with an article from the main stream media. Gasp!
> 
> Do you have any evidence that Libya was not a socialist state, that gave people government houses, government college, government healthcare, government welfare, government cars, had a central bank, restricted freedom of speech, implemented price controls, supported terrorism, was heavily militarized, and had one of the highest spending rates in the world?


A Mainstream article.. this coming from someone who just posted a wikipedia link which didn't really support any of your arguments.. other than that you haven't really posted any evidence for anything . You are just speculating non common sense. The link i posted doesn't matter if it is MSM or not, it is a fairly straightforward non biased article. Supported terrorism? Why did the US remove Libya from their terrorist list during the Bush administration, why is Obama , Putin, Hilary Clinton, tony Blair and a pleuthroa of other world leaders hosting visits from him, shaking hands and conversing amiably. 

The fact of the matter is that Libya prior to Gaddafi was nothing, huts , ridiculously low literacy, no money and no hope. He asked for nothing in return for the government facilities and programs he provided to the people. Why did the people love him? Where is any evidence to back up anything you have said, i have posted a few sources and you have cited wikipedia terrorism lol. Can you go read now..?

----------


## Cutlerzzz

Are you 10 years old?




> A Mainstream article.. this coming from someone who just posted a wikipedia link which didn't really support any of your arguments.. other than that you haven't really posted any evidence for anything .


My link cited a half a dozen different incidents, every single one of which had mutliple sources. 




> You are just speculating non common sense.


You are speculating nonsense.




> The link i posted doesn't matter if it is MSM or not, it is a fairly straightforward non biased article.


It only matters if I post something MSM, with lots of sources. However, it is fine if you do it. But yeah, wikipedia articles are known for being so biased, while the Guardian is strictly neutral on everything (sarcasm, if you could not tell).




> Supported terrorism? Why did the US remove Libya from their terrorist list during the Bush administration, why is Obama , Putin, Hilary Clinton, tony Blair and a pleuthroa of other world leaders hosting visits from him, shaking hands and conversing amiably.


So the US government is a credible source now? Make up your mind. Could it be that...the US government is a rotten organization full of incompetent bafoons then, and is now? 




> The fact of the matter is that Libya prior to Gaddafi was nothing, huts , ridiculously low literacy, no money and no hope.


Yes, a country with a tiny population discovering mass quantities of oil does tend to raise their living standards (which are still medicore and below any country in the Western world). I guess the Saudi's have a brilliant ruler as well, just compare their living standards now to where they were 50 years ago. That has nothing to do with his economic policies, which include one of the largest socialist states in the whole world with government health care, houses, education, cars, welfare, and a central bank. 




> Why did the people love him? Where is any evidence to back up anything you have said, i have posted a few sources and you have cited wikipedia terrorism lol. Can you go read now..?


Why did the German's love Hitler? The Russian's Stalin? The Chinese Mao? Government run education and government controlled media might have something to do with it. 

You have cited two sources that have nothing to do with Gadaffi's socialist policies, both from mainstream websites. I have had a list of sources already put fourth in the OP, by Zippyjuan, and the bundle of sources from the wikipedia article. You have posted nothing of substance and made yourself look like a typical socialist in denial of the regimes crimes, just as communist denied the truth about the Soviet Union and China, claiming everything to be exaggerated. Governments are evil, and Gadaffi is a perfect example of it.

----------


## QuickZ06

Mozart, seriously man Gaddafi was a evil guy.

----------


## Echoes

I dont think anyone's saying Kaddafi was a great guy. He built up areas of Lybia and infrastructure, it was a nomadic wasteland before him. He was anti-nwo and wanted a gold standard so he did do some good things. Overall he was a bad ruler, but i give him  credit for standing up to the Global Mafia, which is a million times worse then him.

----------


## Mozart

> Are you 10 years old?
> 
> 
> My link cited a half a dozen different incidents, every single one of which had mutliple sources. 
> 
> 
> 
> You are speculating no sense.
> 
> ...


Are you retarded?
Your link that you posted also cited that America had taken Libya off it's list on terrorist supporters.. now why would it do that if Libya was such a renowned terrorist supporter? Explain this... if Libya is such a Worldly KNOWN terrorist supporter... do renowned terrorist supporters have friendly meet and greets with numerous leaders of various countries? Now your citation has been refuted.

On to my guardian source.. indeed biased, please find a source that disproves the evidence provided? ... 

IT doesn't matter if the US is a credible source or not. it publicly removed Libya from its list of terrorist supporters... So what exactly is your argument here? The US government is full of incompetent bafoons.. the UK government is full of rotten baffoons .. you can apply this constant to virtually every country in existence.. So how does this single out Gaddafi as a bad HORRIBLE DICTATOR.. Contradict yourself much?

So what if it is a socialist country..Egypt is an Arab socialist country.. the majority of people are happy.. there is no foreign military intervention, no massive killings , little poverty and an above average quality of life in Libya .. or used to be. How does this allow the UN/US to intervene...? 

Prior to 1939 Hitler was a fantastic leader... the people had every right to love him. He fixed the economic and social damage that was done by World war I, by increasing employment and strengthening the economy... It wasn't until he started invading other countries and exterminating jews/gays/retarded people that he could be considred evil.. How can you compare hitler... Stalin or Mao to Gaddafi.. each of those leaders were responsible for 10's of millions of deaths.?

----------


## Mozart

> Mozart, seriously man Gaddafi was a evil guy.


Proof?

----------


## Travlyr

> Unfree? Wow, Libya is one of the few countries that rejected IMF, Central banking... 
> 
> State Loans up to 200k interest free
> 
> Do you not agree with the true motive for Libyan intervention is Oil, installation of a central bank and removing Gaddafi because he rejected the Banking Cartels? 
> 
> WOW, the exact day Gaddafi is killed the IMF is ready to open business.. it's disgusting.
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...79J0UB20111020


That's crazy stuff. That article needs its own thread.

----------


## Mozart

Yep, Interesting that the" The World Bank said in September it had been asked to repair water" when it was NATO bombings that destroyed the Libyan water infrastructure.

Libya has been successfully sold and slaved to the banks..

----------


## Cutlerzzz

> Are you retarded?


lawl 




> Your link that you posted also cited that America had taken Libya off it's list on terrorist supporters.. now why would it do that if Libya was such a renowned terrorist supporter? Explain this... if Libya is such a Worldly KNOWN terrorist supporter... do renowned terrorist supporters have friendly meet and greets with numerous leaders of various countries? Now your citation has been refuted.


Could it be that the United States government lacks credibility? Could it be that the US government is wrong? Have you even considered asking why it was on the terrorist list in the first place?




> On to my guardian source.. indeed biased, please find a source that disproves the evidence provided? ...


I have nothing against the article you posted. You don't seem to be able to understand my rather simple argument. My sources were called incorrect for no stated reason, other than that wikipedia and its citations were mainstream. I pointed out that the Guardian is nothing more than a mainstream media source that makes thousands of articles. 




> IT doesn't matter if the US is a credible source or not. it publicly removed Libya from its list of terrorist supporters... So what exactly is your argument here? The US government is full of incompetent bafoons.. the UK government is full of rotten baffoons .. you can apply this constant to virtually every country in existence.. So how does this single out Gaddafi as a bad HORRIBLE DICTATOR.. Contradict yourself much?


Yes it does matter if the United States or British governments are credible sources. I place virtually no value in what governments led by Bush or Blair determined. 

Both governments are rotten and corrupt, as is every government. 




> So what if it is a socialist country..Egypt is an Arab socialist country.. the majority of people are happy.. there is no foreign military intervention, no massive killings , little poverty and an above average quality of life in Libya .. or used to be.


So what if it is a socialist country? I consider whether or not there are private property rights, freedom of speech, and freedom from government coercion, relavent to a discussion asking how tyrannical a man is. 

The majority are happy? How do you know? Libya was in a civil war, apparently, some people were not happy. What does what the majority think matter? The majority of Americans were happy in the segregated South, just not the blacks that were getting lynched. How about the oppressed minority?




> How does this allow the UN/US to intervene...?


I'm a Voluntarist. I'm against all forms of interventionism. You're the guy that is endorsing socialism.




> Prior to 1939 Hitler was a fantastic leader... the people had every right to love him. He fixed the economic and social damage that was done by World war I, by increasing employment and strengthening the economy... It wasn't until he started invading other countries and exterminating jews/gays/retarded people that he could be considred evil..


That's just an ignorant statement. Hitler began his persecutions before the war began. Germany was close to bankruptcy before the war began, and plundered other countries. Before WWII, Hitler was a demagauge that had already taken over two countries, ended all freedom of speech, taken control of the media, nationalized industries, began terrorizism minorities, and killing innocent people.




> How can you compare hitler... Stalin or Mao to Gaddafi.. each of those leaders were responsible for 10's of millions of deaths.?


They were all dictators. They were all socialists. They were all killers. I would say that is enough reason to put them in the same lot.

----------


## The Bavarian

Wow, I am totally sharing this with my buddies, this video just dropped bombs of truth all over my mind. 

+rep

----------


## HOLLYWOOD

LIBYA: New Form For the US WARS?

Call-In/Email/Tweet: C-SPAN Washington Journal

*Call-In Numbers:* 
      _Democrats:_ (202) 737-0001
_Republicans:_ (202) 737-0002
     _Independents:_ (202) 628-0205
     _Outside U.S.:_ (202) 628-0184
*
Email:* journal@c-span.org 
*Twitter:* http://twitter.com/cspanwj

----------


## Becker

> He wanted to unite Africa in a gold standard to get them out of debt slavery. His nation was the richest out of all in Africa. Whatever he did he was serving his people, NATO is a criminal organization. F' them.


He wanted to unite Africa after failing his dream of uniting the Arab world. And he only wants to unite whatever piece of land he can find so he can be the dictator. His nation was richer than South Africa? Does the fact a nation is "richer" mean his people are "served"? 

Funny that you mention the gold standard, because whenever I ask people what country has the right banking system, Libya isn't one of them they think of. Nor is Libya the preferred life they'd trade for their current one, which tells me they know that having a correct banking system is not on their priority list when choosing a place to live, do business and raise a family.

----------


## Bossobass

> Um. It was because of things like blowing up airliners that he was on the doodoo list in the first place.


You mean like this?:





> *1988: US warship shoots down Iranian airliner*
> An American naval warship patrolling in the Persian Gulf has shot down an Iranian passenger jet after apparently mistaking it for an F-14 fighter.


Like Ron says, let's use our imagination for a second and change that article just a bit...




> 1988: *Chinese warship shoots down US airliner*
> A Chinese naval warship patrolling in the Gulf Of Mexico has shot down a US passenger jet after apparently mistaking it for an F-14 fighter.


My position in this whole ME bull$#@! is exactly the same as it was with the whole Vietnam bull$#@!...

What did Libya do to the US to warrant US intervention, using my sons and my and their future earnings? The Domino Theory with a twist? Humanitarian concerns to aid civilians? Rabid penchant to make everyone shop at WalMart with a Chase credit card? WTF is it? If you're going to post the history of Libya, please post the answer to my simple question.

Zippy (and others), you're good at posting partial facts to support everything the US does, including being the forum's chief Fed apologist, but please research the Pan Am bombing a bit deeper before you pontificate, especially since you're doing so as an American... you know, the country responsible for more civilian deaths than all others combined in the history of civilization.

Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Guatemala, El Salvador, Colombia... when will we stop borrowing trillions against the governments ability to tax its citizens to $#@! with countries that pose no threat to us while Wanks here do little more than condone it all?

Bosso

----------


## HOLLYWOOD

> That's crazy stuff. That article needs its own thread.


International Misery Fund / World Banksters

Those NTC barbarians  don't realize, they just served their own heads on a platter to the HITMEN.

Confessions of an Economic HITMAN CIA CFR ... Done!




> hu Oct 20, 2011 11:08am EDT         
>         Oct 20 (Reuters) - The International Monetary Fund and the World Bank have visited Libya and will return there in "coming weeks" to assess economic and financial needs, an IMF spokesman said on Thursday.
> Officials from the IMF and World Bank visited Libya between Oct. 6 and 13 to conduct a fact-finding mission on the economy and public financial management issues, IMF spokesman Gerry Rice told reporters.
> "Follow-up missions are planned to undertake a needs assessment," he said but was unable to give dates.
> The next visit to Libya by the international institutions comes amid media reports that deposed Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi had been killed on Thursday near Sirte although details were still unclear.
> The World Bank said in September it had been asked to repair water, energy and transport sectors as Libya's ruling National Transitional Council focuses on rebuilding Libya.
> After four decades of Gaddafi's personalized rule, Libya does not have a regular state structure and state services are poorly run. There were attempts under Gaddafi to modernize the oil-based economy and government services by passing laws to attract investment but much of the effort was wasted.

----------


## Demigod

Yes but what you must understand is that there is no such thing as Libyans in the meaning of the word.

They are compromised of over 200 tribes each with its own agenda.You will see now when they need to form a "democratic" government and infighting will start.

The Warfalla tribe who is 1 million strong and who backed Gadafi would have to get 1/6 of their parlament seats in the elections.This would for sure lead to infighting cause Misrata and Bengazi did all the fighting and will want to rule but simply don`t have the votes.

And this is just the Warfalla ,what about Sirte and other loyalists?


And what everyone is forgetting is that the entire south of the country is still under Gadaffi loyalists control and that is where the water and oil to Libya comes from.If the Tuaregs decide to support them in exchange for autonomy after the fighting is over this war can last for another decade.


And the most important part oppressed people dont drive Chrysler and Toyota SUV`s.Did anyone see an old car?

----------


## No Free Beer

> Some of you make my head hurt sometimes. 
> 
> Gaddafi, who was a dictator, a socialist, a known supporter of terrorism, who had innocent people killed, and ran a tyranical government, was a good guy according to some of you. 
> 
> I'm sure that there will be a group of people posting about this in the comment sections of articles on other websites, that go something along the lines of "Gaddafi was a good guy set up by the NWO. He wanted peace, gold, and freedom. RON PAUL 2012!!!", giving Paul supporters (and Paul by extension) a bad name. I'm also sure that some on this website will now accuse me of being involved in an international conspiracy theory to overthrow the US government and create a one world government, or at least declare me to be ignorant and have no understanding of the world.


Couldn't agree more. That being said, HOW we went in there and WHY we went in raises eyebrows. Am I glad, in a sense, he is gone? Yep. Does it mean there will be peace in that country? Nope.

----------


## Carole

> Yes. And you are very evolved in your thinking.




I remember being in high school and sitting on the front steps beside my best friend as we were discussing Goldwater. The only thing I recall about the conversation was that I was making a point to her about how the middle class would eventually be squeezed out because they were going to be pressured from above (government) and below (people asking for more from government). At the time I doubt that I had enough knowledge to articulate it very well, but my friend and I were both on the same page. 

I talk to her two or three times a week still today. She is struggling a bit with my total commitment to Dr. Paul, but she mostly agrees with me. It is the "electable" and "out there" argument again. She is fearful I think and lacks the confidence that I have in Dr. Paul 

Gadaffi was both a monster and an ideological man. Perhaps he did or did not do all the things of which he has been accused, but it would appear that at least some parts of his ideology were working in some way. For how many I do not know. Here, we never get the real news of other countries. We have to ferret out any information we can and then question its veracity. 

The octupus strangling the world and strangling America seems to grow new tentacles with each one we try to cut off. We have a monster on our hands, but in the words of Sam Adams: "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." 

Were not the recent uprisings in the mid-east perpetrated by determined minorities, rather than by huge majorities? If so, it seems that it is another case of the noisy wheel getting greased. Whether that noisy minority has the right of it, I certainly do not know, but there seems to have been a trend even here in America in which a vocal minority demands and gets its way because there is always a group of Alinsky types who see the power in using that group. Noisy spoiled children always testing and demanding more, they have not the slightest clue that acquiescing to all their demands will soon rob them and their children of everything they took for granted.

These conflicts and revolutions come and go, rise and fall, change things for good or bad. The most important consideration for me though is that without the rule of law, there is no truth and there is no true justice. Thanks for your comments anaconda.

----------


## wannaberocker

> Some of you make my head hurt sometimes. 
> 
> Gaddafi, who was a dictator, a socialist, a known supporter of terrorism, who had innocent people killed, and ran a tyranical government, was a good guy according to some of you. 
> 
> I'm sure that there will be a group of people posting about this in the comment sections of articles on other websites, that go something along the lines of "Gaddafi was a good guy set up by the NWO. He wanted peace, gold, and freedom. RON PAUL 2012!!!", giving Paul supporters (and Paul by extension) a bad name. I'm also sure that some on this website will now accuse me of being involved in an international conspiracy theory to overthrow the US government and create a one world government, or at least declare me to be ignorant and have no understanding of the world.


YOu hit the nail on the head. Hell reading from the comments folks make Gaddafi sound like a freedom loving liberatarian.

----------


## Bordillo

just curious, was Nazi Germany connected with the Rothschild banking

----------


## Travlyr

> just curious, was Nazi Germany connected with the Rothschild banking


Yes. 

So was Prescott Bush and George Herbert Walker.

Max Warburg



> Max Warburg was also on the board of a major industrial conglomerate, IG Farben, which had been originally formed by the Rothschilds in 1925, together with other foreign Anglo-American interests. Warburg was ousted from the board in 1938, out of fears his Jewish ethnicity would allow the company to be confiscated and seized as a "Jewish Company."

----------


## Seraphim

There is evidence that Hitler was the illegitimite love child of a Rothchild and one of his servants - hence the "quarter Jew" allegations for Hitler.

Do you own diligence.




> just curious, was Nazi Germany connected with the Rothschild banking

----------


## Son of Detroit

Let's get this thread out of General Politics.  The last thing we need a potential Republican convert to see is this thread.

I think it's safe to say that multiple Ron Paul supporters talking about how the NWO and global bankers killed Ghaddafi because he was a great leader doesn't look good, and won't win any people over.

----------


## RyanRSheets

> Yep- a desirable economy we should try to emulate. Government spending also makes up 43% of GDP- higher than the 38% of GDP in the US (though not by a ton).  Government much more involved in people's and business's lives there too. 
> 
> ("Freedom scale" goes up to 100 with 100 indicating the most freedom- their overall score ranks them as #173 globally)
> 
> http://www.heritage.org/index/country/Libya


I really doubt that 43% was anywhere near as polluted with defense, corporate welfare and waste, too.  As far as we're concerned, though, they weren't a threat to us, we should not have gotten involved.  That Gaddafi opposed central banking and the "revolutionaries" instituted a central bank almost immediately is very telling, regardless.

----------


## Jake Ralston

> Where do you get this idea that I support war with Libya? I promote peace, hence my opposition to Gadaffi. 
> 
> Here is a brief, heavily cited wikipedia article about Gadaffi's various terrorist connections
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadaffi...ored_terrorism





> wikipedia?!?!  YGTBSM





> Every claim is cited. Problem?


Wow. So Danke tries to get smart with Cutler and then gets owned. 

Danke hasn't responded in hours so I take it he is doing his homework reading assignment.

Good job Cutz! Straight up owned him Rudy Giuliani style, I like it!

----------


## Bossobass

> Yes, a country with a tiny population discovering mass quantities of oil does tend to raise their living standards (which are still medicore and below any country in the Western world). I guess the Saudi's have a brilliant ruler as well, just compare their living standards now to where they were 50 years ago. That has nothing to do with his economic policies, which include one of the largest socialist states in the whole world with government health care, houses, education, cars, welfare, and a central bank. 
> 
> You have cited two sources that have nothing to do with Gadaffi's socialist policies, both from mainstream websites. I have had a list of sources already put fourth in the OP, by Zippyjuan, and the bundle of sources from the wikipedia article. You have posted nothing of substance and made yourself look like a typical socialist in denial of the regimes crimes, just as communist denied the truth about the Soviet Union and China, claiming everything to be exaggerated. Governments are evil, and Gadaffi is a perfect example of it.


I responded to the Zippinator's cited source material, and feel compelled to repeat myself here.

Like every country where resources are in abundance, the US has shown up, installed their puppet, arranged for oppressive loans from the IMF, which proceeds went directly to US companies to build infrastructure to exploit the resources. The Puppet and his little cadre were "ins" and the rest of the population were "outs". The US resource exploiter received 95% and the "ins" received 5% while the population (as Libya was experiencing before Gadaffi) remained illiterate and destitute.

The Hunt's story gives some insight as to why Libya's standard of living suddenly changed under the evil dictator/terrorist/murder/socialist/yadda, yadda, took power:




> During the 1970's Bunker Hunt was still the heavy hitter betting on one big business deal after another including oil, real estate (5 million acres throughout the world), cattle, sugar and pizza parlors. His Libyan oil leases in the late 1960's and early 1970's were bringing in $30 million/year in revenues (even at $3/bbl).





> At the same time Col. Qaddafi in Libya shut out BP and then nationalized Bunker's wells. The major oil companies soon afterwards caved in. The first to break with the major oil companies was Armand Hammer at Occidental Petroleum when he gave into Qaddafi's demands for a 51% royalty payment. After Hammer the other major oil companies lined up and gave in as well. The results were an empowerment over the major oil companies the middle east countries had never before experienced that emboldened them to form OPEC and embargo oil in 1973.
> 
> Bunker grew angry at the State Department's lack of support for his lost Libyan oil field. He had hired John Connally to help negotiate with the Libyan but without any success. He blamed the big oil companies for using him as a sacrificial lamb in Libya and then hanging him out to dry on his own. At the head of the major oil companies were the Hunts arch enemies, the Rockefellers. Bunker felt that the Washington - New York Eastern establishment was being led down the road to socialism by the Rockefellers.


Because Gadaffi didn't play ball (take the impossible-to-repay IMF loans, take the 5% deal, agree to accept only USD for your oil and agree to set aside a % of your end of the take to purchase US Treasuries), he became the bad guy. End of $#@!ing story, all else being completely irrelevant.

This has been the case in so many countries in the last 1/2 century, I'm truly amazed that it isn't obvious to everyone in America why Gadaffi is "really, really bad and must be bombed to death".

Regarding the oppressive nature of the dictator against his people:




> Libya has the highest living standard in Africa. The "United Nations Development Program (UNDP) confirms that the country has excellent prospects for achieving United Nations development goals by 2015. NATO's war will have already dashed those hopes. A collapse like the one in Iraq now threatens the country.





> For Richard Falk, the UN special rapporteur for human rights in Palestine, the "degree of repression" in Libya is not "more pervasive and severe" than in other authoritarian countries. Even according to Amnesty International's country reports of human rights conditions, that of Libya differs little from many other countries; regarding the Arab allies in the NATO war alliance, such as Saudi Arabia, it is even much worse.


My feeling is that the US should stay the $#@! out of other countries affairs and the single pertinent thing I know for sure about Libya is that it never was, isn't and never will be a threat to America. I don't care what Gadaffi was like, what his political or ideological views were or what his favorite color was, your accusations notwithstanding.

Bosso

But, is you choose to condemn a post for lack of sources, make sure your own are up to that sort of scrutiny.

----------


## Cutlerzzz

> I responded to the Zippinator's cited source material, and feel compelled to repeat myself here.
> 
> Like every country where resources are in abundance, the US has shown up, installed their puppet, arranged for oppressive loans from the IMF, which proceeds went directly to US companies to build infrastructure to exploit the resources. The Puppet and his little cadre were "ins" and the rest of the population were "outs". The US resource exploiter received 95% and the "ins" received 5% while the population (as Libya was experiencing before Gadaffi) remained illiterate and destitute.
> 
> The Hunt's story gives some insight as to why Libya's standard of living suddenly changed under the evil dictator/terrorist/murder/socialist/yadda, yadda, took power:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That post does not address Zippyjuans, which shows how low Libya ranks on every freedom index. That has absolutely nothing to do with it, as a matter of fact. 

Again, Libya is one of the smallest countries in the world, population wise, and yet it is one of the most oil rich. That is why they arhave higher living standards than the rest of Africa (setting the bar pretty low). But by this logic, the Saudi's are brilliant with their economy, because they distribute oil revenue.

----------


## anaconda

> by this logic, the Saudi's are brilliant with their economy, because they distribute oil revenue.


I thought the Saudi inner circle kept all of the money for themselves..

----------


## HOLLYWOOD

I see the Saudi Dictatorship lost one of their own to old age... he rained the terror of by the Security/Defense Minister for  48 years straight. Conducted the oppression, torture, imprisonment, and executions. Seems there's double-standards in the world. Oh, it's the same government standard in every country, it's just the manner in running the operations and how covert/polished-up you run your terror upon the people. I guess calling someone a 'CROWN PRINCE' off-loads some of the decades of terror... oh when you submit to the imperial powers, agreeing upon a global swindle (Oil Price fixing) it's okay then to imprison/torture/murder your own people. Wait a minute... lot's of oil and racketeering to work the deals.
*
Saudi Crown Prince Sultan bin Abdulaziz Al Saud* Cheif of Security/Defense
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15413275


Maybe Qadhafi was correct about some of the tribes being rats/anaimals..

WARNING: Very Explicit Video, The Rebels Sodomized Mommar Qadhafi shortly before executing him

----------


## LibForestPaul

> I don't endorse any interventionism. None the less, that does not make Gaddafi any less evil. Gaddafi is as rotten as it gets, and the OP's video was made by an outright, hardcore, socialist that CLEARLY endorsed him. 
> 
> I consider calling killers evil part of my free speech, and don't feel like sitting by on the Ron Paul forums as this monster is commended.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone who claims to be a Ron Paul supporter should hate Gaddafi MORE after watching that video. Those policies go to show that the main stream media is right about one thing; Gaddafi is a tyrant.


Rotten compared to who. Bush Jr, Clinton, Obama, Putin, Jintao, Perez... grow up. please...

----------


## Cutlerzzz

> Rotten compared to who. Bush Jr, Clinton, Obama, Putin, Jintao, Perez... grow up. please...


He is rotten compared to 99% of the worlds population. 

If you're ok with governments murdering innocent people, you need to leave this movement. It's disgusting.

----------


## John F Kennedy III

Id rather have Gaddafi as president than Obama.

----------


## Dark_Horse_Rider

> He is rotten compared to 99% of the worlds population. 
> 
> If you're ok with governments murdering innocent people, you need to leave this movement. It's disgusting.


His body might be rotting by now , while you voice opinion.

Ron seems to prefer staying out of other nation's politics , so perhaps you should ask yourself why you are here.

The USG murders innocent people in America and around the world everyday, we are trying to stop that. Get it ?

----------


## Feeding the Abscess

> His body might be rotting by now , while you voice opinion.
> 
> Ron seems to prefer staying out of other nation's politics , so perhaps you should ask yourself why you are here.
> 
> The USG murders innocent people in America and around the world everyday, we are trying to stop that. Get it ?


Dude made a thread about going ancap a few days ago, and you're suggesting he'd advocate sending in US forces to take out Gadhafi Duck? lololol

----------


## Cutlerzzz

> His body might be rotting by now , while you voice opinion.
> 
> Ron seems to prefer staying out of other nation's politics , so perhaps you should ask yourself why you are here.
> 
> The USG murders innocent people in America and around the world everyday, we are trying to stop that. Get it ?


Ron has never said that individual Americans should not exercise their right to freedom of speech, and condemn killers and socialists in other countries. He is against the US government intervening in other countries affairs, not individuals speaking their mind. 

Clearly, there are people in this thread doing more than just opposing the war. Some people here are commending Gaddafi, denying his crimes, and endorsing his socialistic economic policies.

----------


## susano

> The "rebels" also apparently moonlight in the banking industry as they took the time out to create a central bank mid-revolution, before they even took the country over.
> 
> Its almost funny to watch them celebrate, knowing that they are soon to be exploited by the international banking cabal, and that foreign oil companies are going to rape them, and the fact that NATO really isnt in the business of putting 'nice' puppet governments in. They like guys that cut heads off with swords to keep the people in line. 
> 
> Qadaffi may well have been a $#@!head and a tyrant for some in Libya, but I'm not thinking Thomas Jefferson Muhammed is going to be their next president and create a model of freedom over there. 10 years from now it will be worse, I'd put $100 on it.



Yup, those filthy shills in media just reported that absurdity and never missed a beat. Bastards.

----------


## wowrevolution

The only thing "rogue" about most "rogue states" is that they don't have a bank controlled by the rothschilds.

----------


## Becker

> Yep- a desirable economy we should try to emulate. Government spending also makes up 43% of GDP- higher than the 38% of GDP in the US (though not by a ton).  Government much more involved in people's and business's lives there too. 
> 
> ("Freedom scale" goes up to 100 with 100 indicating the most freedom- their overall score ranks them as #173 globally)
> 
> http://www.heritage.org/index/country/Libya


Who cares about freedom? They got a GOLD STANDARD, and they're the richest country in Africa!

----------


## susano

> Some of you make my head hurt sometimes. 
> 
> Gaddafi, who was a dictator, a socialist, a known supporter of terrorism, who had innocent people killed, and ran a tyranical government, was a good guy according to some of you. 
> 
> I'm sure that there will be a group of people posting about this in the comment sections of articles on other websites, that go something along the lines of "Gaddafi was a good guy set up by the NWO. He wanted peace, gold, and freedom. RON PAUL 2012!!!", giving Paul supporters (and Paul by extension) a bad name. I'm also sure that some on this website will now accuse me of being involved in an international conspiracy theory to overthrow the US government and create a one world government, or at least declare me to be ignorant and have no understanding of the world.


Every assertion you made could have come out of the mouth of NWO tool, Anderson Cooper. Or Hillary Clinton. Or any number of representatives of the empire.

----------


## Becker

> Id rather have Gaddafi as president than Obama.


Says Farrakhan.

----------


## Cutlerzzz

> Every assertion you made could have come out of the mouth of NWO tool, Anderson Cooper. Or Hillary Clinton. Or any number of representatives of the empire.


Every assertion you just made sounds like it came from a murderous statist defending the actions of a murderous regime.

----------


## Cutlerzzz

> Who cares about freedom? They got a GOLD STANDARD, and they're the richest country in Africa!


In the end, isn't being better than Zimbabwe and Sudan what it's all about?

----------


## susano

> Every assertion you just made sounds like it came from a murderous statist defending the actions of a murderous regime.


You're parroting the same MSM that ridicules and blacks out Ron Paul.

Libya is a tribal society with a  complex (recent) colonial history, including Italian fascism. They now have homes, free water and power, education and health care. That's about to change because of the NWO and NATO. So, while you're calling the guy who improved their quality of life a murderous dictator, they just got the business end of a real, wholesale murder machine. Now comes the IMF and debt slavery. What's your label for that?

I'm a constitutionalist but I'm an American. I know enough about life to respect that other places in the world live differently. It's their choice. If this were an actual revolution it would be different. Libya was attacked by NATO, with mercenaries, foreign special forces, and a handful of very short sighted and stupid Libyans who took the time, in the middle of their "revolution" to cut a deal selling out their countrymen to the banksters. Their sovereignty is gone, now, and so will be their oil and gold.

----------


## Dark_Horse_Rider

it's ok 

judgement is near

all will be held accountable for what they have done , said , and promoted in this world

----------


## Dark_Horse_Rider

the spirits won't give a $#@! if you followed the TOU or not

----------


## Diurdi

So who the hell thought it was a great Idea to say "Gaddafi is a Great Man" and then after that write "Ron Paul 2012" on youtube? And then upvote it 30+ times?

Are you $#@!ing nuts?


Not only that, but the video goes through how he created a massive socialist country where "a house is a human right". Where they have socialized medicine, where they have socialized energy, socialized education. Seriously, some people are really brain dead.

----------


## Demigod

They will be making Gadaffi out of mud in a few months when they see what "NATO" brought democracy is like.

This was not a Libyan rebellion to get Gadaffi out.If it was it would have been just like Romania and Chausesku.There it was all done in 24 hours.The people rebelled the military joined in they caught him,shot him game over.

----------


## harley95

Excellant post ..Thank you ..!

----------


## s35wf

MY Humble Opinion:  

I'm Sure Gaddaffi  Had done Both Good & Bad things to his people.  ALL/EVERY Man, woman, and child on this planet earth has both good & evil in them...just varies by degrees.

1.  Libya civil war should be THEIR War.....NOT OURS, NATO's OR ANYONE Elses!  Stay Out of ALL Other Countries Affairs!
2.  If WE ARE Supposed to be a Country based on the RULE of LAW & JUSTICE...Gaddaffi Should NOT have been sodomized & MURDERED...He WAS Caught ALIVE  and should have been incarcerated till having his day in Court!   hell they even gave Saddem a trial before they hanged him... At the VERY Least he should have gotten a "Trial" by peers!

RON PAUL 2012!

----------


## BlackTerrel

> Pretend Gadaffi was a threat to me? I never made any such claim and never believed him to be a threat to the United States. He was, however, a threat to his own people.


Dude you have far more patience than me.  You've basically made about 15 posts of valid points and instead of debating you're getting a lot of "oh you must worship Obama" or "you think the government never lies".




> Yeh, just like Egyptians are better off now without Mubarek


When the protests first started most on these forums were cheering "the fall of the US puppet Mubarak".  Me and a couple others were arguing to take a step back.

I wish the US didn't get involved, and it's quite possible that what comes next will be worse.  But to claim Ghadaffi was anything less than a dictator is absurd.

----------


## BlackTerrel

> You're parroting the same MSM that ridicules and blacks out Ron Paul.


The same MSM that blacks out Ron Paul mocks Harold Camping therefore Harold Camping must be right.  Clearly.

----------


## BattleFlag1776

> So who the hell thought it was a great Idea to say "Gaddafi is a Great Man" and then after that write "Ron Paul 2012" on youtube? And then upvote it 30+ times?
> 
> Are you $#@!ing nuts?
> 
> 
> Not only that, but the video goes through how he created a massive socialist country where "a house is a human right". Where they have socialized medicine, where they have socialized energy, socialized education. Seriously, some people are really brain dead.


They are not brain dead; they just don't want Ron Paul to be elected President.

----------


## Cutlerzzz

> You're parroting the same MSM that ridicules and blacks out Ron Paul.
> 
> Libya is a tribal society with a  complex (recent) colonial history, including Italian fascism.


The MSM is correct in calling Gaddafi a monster.




> They now have homes, free water and power, education and health care. That's about to change because of the NWO and NATO. So, while you're calling the guy who improved their quality of life a murderous dictator, they just got the business end of a real, wholesale murder machine.


Nice to see that you're showing your true colors and embracing government provided homes, water, power, education, and healthcare. Gaddafi improved their quality of life? No, the government did not. Oil trade did. Unless Gaddafi put that oil in the ground, he deserves no credit. If you understood Austrian Economics, you would understand that nationalized industries, subsidies, and price controls are bad. 




> I know enough about life to respect that other places in the world live differently.


I don't respect tribal societies that kill innocent people, personally. I'm pro liberty.

----------


## asurfaholic

Hi. I am trying to stay out of this discussion as best I can, but does anyone have any real evidence that gadaffi had his own people killed? 

I have only found some articles suggesting that even after rebels stormed his police departments and cities, gadaffi ordered his loyalist troops not to return fire, but retreat.

Not sure if its true. Regarding the terrorist attacks, there is too much speculation that there was a faulty case against him, with no real evidence.

I monitor several video sites that regularly post videos of civilians and others getting shot and killed, aftermath and caught on camera. I have never seen one from Libya. Not that this is proof of non violence, but still stands out as important to me..

Another very valid question I have is why Libya, and not Syria? If we really care about people and all.........I could post a hundred videos of syrian protesters of all ages, shot by their government. Why should I believe that we went to bomb gadaffi for humanitarian reasons?

----------


## objectivefreedom

First video - I was unable to watch it with audio, so I may have missed out on the point of that video... in any case...

(a) homes a human right
(b) newly married couples receive $50,000 to buy their own home
(c) free electricity
(d) Gaddafi vowed to house every Libyan
(e) free education
(f) free healthcare
(g) interest-free loans
(h) government pays 50% of car price
(i) ...this represented around 95% of the population of Tripoli

---------------

^^^ there's absolutely nothing Ron Paul esq about the points above... the fact that the highest rated comment on that video is "R.I.P Gaddafi you were a great man death to the new world order. Ron﻿ paul 2012" is tragic.

(a), (b), (d) - Entitlements? Positive rights? Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? Where's the $50,000 coming from? Oh, it's coming from the STATE bank, not the horrible Rothschild bank, I get it.
(c) Total subsidies?
(e), (f) - More entitlements? Communist manifesto anyone?
(g) - Artificially low interest rates? Did somebody order a bubble machine?
(h) - Does cash for clunkers ring a bell?
(i) - Oh, so collectivism is a justification for all ends? Majority = morality. Ok.

I'm not sure what the first video was advocating... that Gaddafi was a renown Keynsian and that's why the U.N. / rebels took him out? Ha. If anything, those are the very reasons why he remained in power for 40 years.

----------


## asurfaholic

And cutlerz, I respect your opinion, but how do you know that in THAT society, a strong dictatorship is not the best thing for the people? Could it be true that the area is so unstable that a democracy would always lead to failure and internal wars? How do we rightfully say that other parts of the world would be better off if they were more like us?

Maybe they wern't as free as us, but with (don't shoot, I don't have a source) 90% of the tribes being supportive of Gadaffi, can't we say at least they were well taken care of?

Seeing very brutal videos of how the rebels treat their POW surface recently, are you SURE that it is good that gadaffi is a goner?

----------


## Cutlerzzz

> And cutlerz, I respect your opinion, but how do you know that in THAT society, a strong dictatorship is not the best thing for the people?


Do I need to explain why a strong dictator with socialist policies is the antithesis of Liberty and what Paul believes in? Or that socialism is inherently inefficient?

----------


## asurfaholic

No, I get that part 

I want proof of the claims that he killed innocent civilians, and more importantly, why do we feel the need to condemn socialism (or any non democratic system) in a historically unstable area.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Yep- a desirable economy we should try to emulate. Government spending also makes up 43% of GDP- higher than the 38% of GDP in the US (though not by a ton).  Government much more involved in people's and business's lives there too. 
> 
> ("Freedom scale" goes up to 100 with 100 indicating the most freedom- their overall score ranks them as #173 globally)
> 
> http://www.heritage.org/index/country/Libya


Zippy, always the devil's advocate to anything opposing the power elite's plan.  Of course Qadaffi's system wasn't perfect, but he didn't jump on the bandwagon of loaning out money at interest, and many things are free or paid for directly by the government.  Regardless of your view of freedom, it sounds a hell of a lot better than what we have here.  The people were actually pretty well off.  Nobody's saying he's a libertarian.  He believes in direct democracy, whoch most people here despise.  Without the rule of law, that does seem like the best alternative, although I would definitely advocate the rule of law with a moral grounding for justice, not direct democracy.  I don't see why you have to $#@! all over the truth by distracting from the real issue.  In this case, it's opposing the world power elite.  You seem to rather like defending them on here.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Some posters on this board are pathetic, and have no concept of liberty. It's amazing that to some of you, only the US government is evil. Not every government (violent monopoly), just the US government. 
> 
> Gaddafi was one of the most evil men in the world. He was a socialist, a killer, a terrorist, and a dictator. The first video was bragging about how great his socialist economy is, full of free houses, electricity, health care, and a free $50,000 dollars at the tax payers expense. Anyone who endorses the policies Gaddafi passed is nothing more than a socialist, and a bigger one than Obama could dream of being.


I'm not necessarily defending Qadaffi's beliefs.  I'm not a fan of socialism or democracy.  But the big difference between his system and our system is that he didn't charge interest on loans and therefore, did not need to inflate the money supply.  That is a huge difference that you seem to be ignoring.  Maybe the guy was a tyrant, but he wasn't as bad as the US government would have us believe he was.  There are many countries under Rothschild owned banks that are much worse.  For some reason, though, Libya was targeted.  Hmm... wonder why?  Could it be that they didn't want to trade their oil in dollars anymore?  That's not a threat to the banking  elite at all.  You should be more critical of what you learn from the media before railing against Qadaffi as being some kind of demon.  Not saying he was good, per se, but perhaps you wouldn't be so riled up over it if you had a realistic aspect that didn't come from the government owned media.

----------


## asurfaholic

> Some posters on this board are pathetic, and have no concept of liberty. It's amazing that to some of you, only the US government is evil. Not every government (violent monopoly), just the US government.
> 
> Gaddafi was one of the most evil men in the world. *He was a socialist, a killer, a terrorist, and a dictator.* The first video was bragging about how great his socialist economy is, full of free houses, electricity, health care, and a free $50,000 dollars at the tax payers expense. Anyone who endorses the policies Gaddafi passed is nothing more than a socialist, and a bigger one than Obama could dream of being.


You listed 4 things. Only 2 of them could make him a bad person. And judging from the lack of any response to my earlier query for PROOF that he in fact is responsible for murdering innocent people in cold blood, I would come to the conclusion that the "Killer" and "Terrorist" label might be misguided.

Maybe socialism isn't what we want as a model for our country. But ours is unique (or ..was..). Theirs is a totally different place. Before the rise of the socialist dictator that Gadaffi was, there was not much there to speak of. Gadaffi, a powerful and influential leader, was able to lead that country to being the powerhouse of Africa. All this without joining hands with the IMF and UN. 

So we sent our thugs (NATO) to murder him, and turn a blind eye when rule of law is ignored. That is unamerican. I am sorry you think Gadaffi is a horrible horrible person. Maybe he wasn't no Anderson Cooper, but he did something good for his country, whether you want to accept it or not.

And I am still waiting for PROOF that Gadaffi used his position of power to murder innocent civilians. We live in an age of technology. If man speaks in the forest, and no woman is around to hear it, then his voice got recorded somewhere.....

----------


## vodalian

It's pretty sad to see how many people are trying to justify the intervention in Libya.

Just another case of the ends justifying the means.

----------


## The Freethinker

> Some of you make my head hurt sometimes. 
> 
> Gaddafi, who was a dictator, a socialist, a known supporter of terrorism, who had innocent people killed, and ran a tyranical government, was a good guy according to some of you. 
> 
> I'm sure that there will be a group of people posting about this in the comment sections of articles on other websites, that go something along the lines of "Gaddafi was a good guy set up by the NWO. He wanted peace, gold, and freedom. RON PAUL 2012!!!", giving Paul supporters (and Paul by extension) a bad name. I'm also sure that some on this website will now accuse me of being involved in an international conspiracy theory to overthrow the US government and create a one world government, or at least declare me to be ignorant and have no understanding of the world.


Cutlerzzz, Moammar Gaddafi wasn't warm and cuddly, but in that region of the world, where democracy didn't develop the way it did in western Europe and North America, one had to be hardnosed and ruthless to rise to power. The very same happens in the United States, Canada, Great Britain, Germany - in any "western democracy." The difference, among others, is that one cannot blatantly and literally destroy opponents, but it's not as if our leaders or the leaders of the west happen to be paragons of morality. If you think George W. Bush, or William Jefferson Clinton before him, or Barack Hussein Obama right now cares about your well-being, or mine, or the well-being of your family, or my family's, I'd like you to know that Megan Fox wants your number for a romantic dinner date.

The fact that he was a dictator and that he wasn't too tender with political adversaries isn't mutually exclusive with the facts presented in those videos. Libya DID have a high standard of living, and this is in large part thanks to the way Gaddafi ran things. 

I'd like to remind you as well that:

1. Saddam Hussein, who was likewise vilified for heavy-handed treatment of political adversaries during the time he ran Iraq (and not without reason), also happened to build a society which had a high standard of living. Iraqis who survived the 2003 war have all testified that things got progressively worse after the US-led coalition toppled him. Women were allowed to wear jeans and to go to college - now they can't. Iraqi Christians were left alone to worship God in peace (believe it or not, the "monster" Saddam for some reason permitted Iraqi Christians to exercise their faith - with Hussein's departure and the infiltration of Islamic extremists, Iraqi Christians have been persecuted, their homes attacked, and they have often been forced to depart their homes unless they were willing to die or to convert to Islam). Iraqi was a high industrialized state with solid literacy and education rates, modern infrastructure, and health care available to the citizenry. All this changed after the 1991 war. Like Iraq, Libya was a state where the average citizen lived in fair conditions - he may not have had first-world luxuries, but he was sufficiently free to live in peace as long as he didn't step out of line (i.e, step out of the party line). And like in Iraq, Libya will now face destabilization as there is a power vacuum which will most probably be filled by (the irony!) Islamic extremists. I'd like you to know that throughout 2011, the NATO-led war on Gaddafi included Al-Qaeda extremists. A parallel to Iraq: Libya under Gaddafi was a secular state which was not friendly towards Islamic extremists... and now, they're going to have a major role. Our removal of Saddam turned Iraq into a veritable satellite of Shia Iran, and now Sharia law will be the cornerstone of the constitution "liberated" Libya.

2. He had innocent people killed - so did virtually EVERY THIRD WORLD DICTATORSHIP which did Washington's bidding since 1945. The men in high places in Washington never cared and will never care about the murder of foreign, non-white innocents in Africa, Central and South America, Asia, and the Middle East as long as the bosses of the thugs doing the killing do what Washington wants. Duvalier. Marcos. The Shah of Iran. Park Chung Hee. Ngo Dinh Diem. Saddam Hussein. The Cone Sur South American military dictators. Fulgencio Batista. Trujillo. Doe. And the list goes on. Washington never cared about those innocents' lives when their puppets were in charge in Third World capitals. Hussein for example, he was our buddy in the early 1980s. I'd say oil effectively ruined his usefulness to the US as a puppet.

Furthermore, if killing innocents is something that offends you, I'm sure you need no reminder that each of the last four US presidents launched either full-scale wars of aggression or military strikes which caused the deaths of untold innocents. You most probably know that 4 million Iraqis were internally or externally displaced as a result of the violence following the 2003 deposition of Hussein and that hundreds of thousands died, not to mention those who died directly through Shock and Awe.

3. That a national leader is a dictator has no bearing on the infrastructure, quality of life, etc. that he is able to bring to his citizens. If anything, dictators often use grandiose national projects to garner political capital and to foster genuine support. Adolf Hitler, however diabolical his treatment of European Jewry, did manage to improve the lot of German citizens after he rose to power. Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili aka Joseph Stalin oversaw breakneck industrialization plans which turned impoverished post-Tsarism Russia into an industrial powerhouse to the extent that his troops beat back the mighty Werhmacht and banged down the gates of the Reichstag. Like the dictator he deposed, Stalin was a murderous tyrant, but this does not mean he did NOT improve the living standards of Russians, and that both Hitler and Stalin succeeded in pleasing their electorates (well, at least, part of them, if we can call them "electorates") is that many Germans genuinely supported Hitler, and that many Moscovites openly wept when Radio Moscow announced Stalin's death in 1953. 

Likewise, Gaddafi may have been cruel, but he successfully turned ideas into concrete results, and many of his people loved him for it. The exact same happened in Iraq and in other Third World countries whose leaders, I again state, were not advocates of democracy, but who weren't exactly sitting in their palaces sipping beer while the majority of the citizenry was shoved into death camps. Did a % of civilians get persecuted and even killed? Sure. Does it negate the tangible achievements of those leaders, to improve their societies? No.

And did the US support those leaders when it suited us? ABSOLUTELY.

BTW folks, are we gonna topple Karzai next? I mean, come on. We put the man in charge and then he says that if Pakistan and the US go to war, he'll back Pakistan. Not that his armed forces are much of a threat to the US military, but hey, show some gratitude.

----------


## Lovecraftian4Paul

Whatever Gaddafi was, I hope he is at peace now. No one deserves to die the way he did. Seeing the photos and video the last few days makes me feel real sick in a way an event hasn't made me feel for a long time.

These terrorists who have taken over Libya have proven themselves WORSE than the Bolsheviks and the French radicals who killed Louis XVI. These regimes at least gave their Kings sanitary deaths. Gaddafi was brutally tortured to death, and if unjust regicide (or its modern equivalents) is an indicator of the revolutionary terror to come, then Libya is going to burn in a way the world hasn't seen since the Cambodian killing fields.

----------


## Carole

> Hi. I am trying to stay out of this discussion as best I can, but does anyone have any real evidence that gadaffi had his own people killed? 
> 
> I have only found some articles suggesting that even after rebels stormed his police departments and cities, gadaffi ordered his loyalist troops not to return fire, but retreat.
> 
> Not sure if its true. Regarding the terrorist attacks, there is too much speculation that there was a faulty case against him, with no real evidence.
> 
> I monitor several video sites that regularly post videos of civilians and others getting shot and killed, aftermath and caught on camera. I have never seen one from Libya. Not that this is proof of non violence, but still stands out as important to me..
> 
> Another very valid question I have is why Libya, and not Syria? If we really care about people and all.........I could post a hundred videos of syrian protesters of all ages, shot by their government. Why should I believe that we went to bomb gadaffi for humanitarian reasons?


I am beginning to wonder how much this had to do with these "Arab spring uprisings":

Libya Was About to Unveil a Hugely Successful Project Built W/Out the International Banks 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...topics+-+libya


Virtually unknown in the West: Libya’s water resources
http://www.darkpolitricks.com/2011/0...ter-resources/

Libya Turns On The Great Man-Made River
by Marcia Merry 
Printed in The Executive Intelligence Review, September, 1991.
http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/libya.htm

One article indicates the IMF and other were fighting him on this project, yet he was doing it without borrowing from the international bankers. This would surely anger the bankers.

My personal opinion is that these uprisings were all instigated with our involvement and if this is true, it makes me ill and angry and that this president is a monster.

----------


## Cutlerzzz

> No, I get that part 
> 
> I want proof of the claims that he killed innocent civilians, and more importantly, why do we feel the need to condemn socialism (or any non democratic system) in a historically unstable area.


I can't prove anything to any of you. I'm not dealing with open minded, logical people. I'll be told that every link, from any source, is complicit in a an international conspiracy to create a one world government. As a Voluntarist, I'll be accused of supporting a war by a bunch of statists. There is no argument to be made from your side in regards to Gaddafi's record. The facts are out there, and many of them are in this thread. I'm running out of patience.




> You listed 4 things. Only 2 of them could make him a bad person.


If you think that being a socialist dictator is moral, you need to leave this movement. 




> Maybe socialism isn't what we want as a model for our country. But ours is unique (or ..was..). Theirs is a totally different place. Before the rise of the socialist dictator that Gadaffi was, there was not much there to speak of.


Then they discovered oil.

----------


## Cutlerzzz

> It's pretty sad to see how many people are trying to justify the intervention in Libya.


Where?

----------


## Cutlerzzz

> Libya DID have a high standard of living, and this is in large part thanks to the way Gaddafi ran things.


How? What did he do?

----------


## asurfaholic

> If you think that being a socialist dictator is moral, you need to leave this movement


*epic facepalm*

You are missing the point.....

----------


## Zippyjuan

The CIA backed Shah of Iran was another  tyrant who took his country from a backward country into a more modern, prosperous one. Perhaps we should set up more dicitators in the world. 

Some more info:
http://middleeast.about.com/od/libya/p/me071212.htm



> Government and Politics:
> 
> Libya is an absolute dictatorship under the control of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi since Sept. 1969. Various committees and congresses are in place, including the parliamentary General Peoples Congress. But there are* no elections and no political parties,* and the state derives its ideology from Qaddafis Green Book, a collection of his sayings and philosophies loosely based on an amalgam of socialism, economics, Islamic law and Qaddafis idea of socio-anthropology (quote: As the man does not get pregnant, he is not liable to the feebleness which woman, being female, suffers). 
> 
> Religion:
> 
> Libya is 97 percent Sunni Muslim. *Qaddafi controls the countrys mosques and Islamic institutions such as Islamic schools.* He promotes a conservative form of Islam based on his belief that modern believers have strayed from Islams original tenets. But he opposes extremist or fundamentalist Islam, considering it a threat to his power. Small communities of Christians, Hindus, Bahais and Buddhists, usually foreigners working in Libya, are allowed to practice their faith *unless the government suspects the practice to be politically motivated.*
> 
> Economy:
> ...

----------


## Carson

> I am beginning to wonder how much this had to do with these "Arab spring uprisings":
> 
> Libya Was About to Unveil a Hugely Successful Project Built W/Out the International Banks 
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...topics+-+libya
> 
> 
> Virtually unknown in the West: Libya’s water resources
> http://www.darkpolitricks.com/2011/0...ter-resources/
> 
> ...


Hey *Carole*,

If it's easy, could you fix the link for the one I highlighted?


P.S. Thanks for the other links. I hadn't heard about the pipeline project.

----------


## gaazn

Libya was the richest country in North Africa.  It has the best irrigation systems.  It has a lot of oil.  
It was also a very diverse country.  There was religious tolerance there.  It was a model of self-sufficiency.
All of the progress is about to end.

----------


## Zippyjuan

Very diverse? Religious freedom? See my previous link. 



> Religion:
> 
> Libya is *97 percent Sunni Muslim. Qaddafi controls the country’s mosques and Islamic institutions* such as Islamic schools. He promotes a conservative form of Islam based on his belief that modern believers have strayed from Islam’s original tenets. But he opposes extremist or fundamentalist Islam, considering it a threat to his power. Small communities of Christians, Hindus, Baha’is and Buddhists, usually foreigners working in Libya, are allowed to practice their faith *unless the government suspects the practice to be politically motivated.*

----------


## Danke

> Very diverse? Religious freedom? See my previous link.
> 
> 
>  Christians, Hindus, Bahais and Buddhists, usually foreigners working in Libya, are allowed to practice their faith *unless the government suspects the practice to be politically motivated.*



Sounds like the U.S.

----------


## Becker

> Sounds like the U.S.


except the US is not 97% Christian. 

The fact is if you have only 3% of "all other" anything, people usually don't care enough to criminalize your behavior or beliefs, unless they suspect it's politically or criminally undermining the authroity of the state.

----------


## Becker

> Zippy, always the devil's advocate to anything opposing the power elite's plan.  Of course Qadaffi's system wasn't perfect, but he didn't jump on the bandwagon of loaning out money at interest, and many things are free or paid for directly by the government.  *Regardless of your view of freedom, it sounds a hell of a lot better than what we have here.*


lol.





> The people were actually pretty well off.  Nobody's saying he's a libertarian.  He believes in direct democracy, whoch most people here despise.


Yep/




> Without the rule of law, that does seem like the best alternative, although I would definitely advocate the rule of law with a moral grounding for justice, not direct democracy.  I don't see why you have to $#@! all over the truth by distracting from the real issue.  In this case, it's opposing the world power elite.  You seem to rather like defending them on here.


wow.

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## Zippyjuan

> Originally Posted by PaulConventionWV
> 
> Zippy, always the devil's advocate to anything opposing the power elite's plan. Of course Qadaffi's system wasn't perfect, but he didn't jump on the bandwagon of loaning out money at interest, and *many things are free or paid for directly by the government*. Regardless of your view of freedom, it sounds a hell of a lot better than what we have here.


I guess we don't have enough socialism. 




> The people were actually pretty well off. Nobody's saying he's a libertarian. *He believes in direct democracy*, whoch most people here despise.


There is no democracy- there are no political parties or elections. 

Again from my prior link:



> Government and Politics:
> 
> Libya is an *absolute dictatorship under the control of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi* since Sept. 1969. Various committees and congresses are in place, including the parliamentary General People’s Congress. *But there are no elections and no political parties*, and the state derives its ideology from Qaddafi’s Green Book, a collection of his sayings and philosophies loosely based on an amalgam of socialism, economics, Islamic law and Qaddafi’s idea of socio-anthropology (quote: “As the man does not get pregnant, he is not liable to the feebleness which woman, being female, suffers”).





> Without the rule of law, that does seem like the best alternative, although I would definitely advocate the rule of law with a moral grounding for justice, not direct democracy. I don't see why you have to $#@! all over the truth by distracting from the real issue. In this case, *it's opposing the world power elite.* You seem to rather like defending them on here.


Gaddafi WAS a power elite which controlled all facets of the lives of the citizens of Libya. Far worse than you find in the US.

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## Becker

> I guess we don't have enough socialism. 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no democracy- there are no political parties or elections. 
> 
> Again from my prior link:
> 
> 
> ...


I never heard anybody aspire to live there. I can say that much, and I can say I know people to and from many other countries, South Africa, Jordan, Palestine, Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, India, Taiwan, China.

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## Ireland4Liberty

That video the OP posted is laced with non-facts. All the rothschild stuff is just silly. Could not watch anymore.

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## TheDrakeMan

> Some of you make my head hurt sometimes. 
> 
> Gaddafi, who was a dictator, a socialist, a known supporter of terrorism, who had innocent people killed, and ran a tyranical government, was a good guy according to some of you. 
> 
> I'm sure that there will be a group of people posting about this in the comment sections of articles on other websites, that go something along the lines of "Gaddafi was a good guy set up by the NWO. He wanted peace, gold, and freedom. RON PAUL 2012!!!", giving Paul supporters (and Paul by extension) a bad name. I'm also sure that some on this website will now accuse me of being involved in an international conspiracy theory to overthrow the US government and create a one world government, or at least declare me to be ignorant and have no understanding of the world.


Yeah, it comes with the whole bull$#@! non-interventionist thing. Any evil thing that happens in the world is caused by American or Western (White) foreign policy. Arab or Muslim dictators are never _truly_ evil just misunderstood, fighting against ZOG or the NWO. Either one. And there is never a case where intervention in foreign affairs is justified, blah blah blah blah. SSDD.

I was more disturbed at the people sympathizing with Gadaffi at the moment of his death and the tortured he endured. The man deserved much worse, seeing how his armies would frequently (under official military command) rape enemies dissidents males & female. The guy was truly a sick SOB.

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## HOLLYWOOD

> The CIA backed Shah of Iran was another  tyrant who took his country from a backward country into a more modern, prosperous one. Perhaps we should set up more dicitators in the world. 
> 
> Some more info:
> http://middleeast.about.com/od/libya/p/me071212.htm


Once again one-sided nuke position taking... never taken into account the wealth of the nation, price increases/economic change of the world, and especially BP Iranian crude. etc, etc.

Just because the Shan of Iran had wonderful palaces and with dozens of F4 Phantom IIs and F-14 Tomcats doesn't make the entire nation modern and prosperous. Only certain portions... your analogy is like saying Washington DC government is prosperous for stealing.

Frankly all 2 of the political parties should be eliminated in the US... It's just a well polished Totalitarian Plutocracy with the ignorance of Americans that follow the illusion of choice by party BS.

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