# News & Current Events > Individual Rights Violations: Case Studies >  Victimless Crimes and Conspiracy to Murder

## Ilhaguru

Technically there was no murder, so what is the justification? Surely this threat is an issue.

----------


## Ilhaguru

Whoops, wrong forum. Can someone transfer this tot he Civil Liberties forum?

----------


## heavenlyboy34

I don't know of any.  Perhaps an expert in criminology will come in and enlighten us.

----------


## gaazn

It's all about collateral damage.  But why not decriminalize a lot of offenses and just make them civil cases.

----------


## Ilhaguru

Same question about Treason.

----------


## Josh_LA

The thing about conspiracy and intent, is usually justified because we have a good reason to believe, that unless something was in the way, a crime was going to be successful.

It's not "technically" no murder, there was no murder period. 

The question can be worded this way
"If you were not going to do something wrong, why were you going to do something wrong?"

In other words, planning an event is already doing part of it. This is why premeditated murder is different than manslaughter and other degrees of murder. This is why accidents are not criminal.

----------


## pcosmar

If there was no murder then it would be "Attempted Conspiracy to murder" at best. 
Just as a botched murder attempt is "Attempted Murder".

But then The "justice system" in this country has little to do with Justice.


I have known someone convicted of "Attempted sale of an Immitation Controled substance".
WTF

----------


## Josh_LA

> If there was no murder then it would be "Attempted Conspiracy to murder" at best. 
> Just as a botched murder attempt is "Attempted Murder".
> 
> But then The "justice system" in this country has little to do with Justice.
> 
> 
> I have known someone convicted of "Attempted sale of an Immitation Controled substance".
> WTF


I agree, the justice system in this country is a joke and insult to freedomlovers.

----------


## Danke

> I have known someone convicted of "Attempted sale of an Immitation Controled substance".
> WTF



Wait, what?

----------


## Brooklyn Red Leg

> Wait, what?


Hehe, probably from selling baking soda to retards and claiming its cocaine.

----------


## DamianTV

The justice system in this country is designed to do several things.  One of which is to make it profitable for the government to find, and CREATE new criminals.

----------


## newbitech

I think there is an almost complete lack of understanding, compassion, and empathy for "victims" built into the social fabric of our society that spans the gap between freedom lovers and those grovelling at the elitist alter of social welfare.  

As freedom lovers, we will need to clearly define the terms victim and victimization.  How will we as individuals deal with protecting the abstract parts of our liberty such as thoughts, feelings, and morality?   At what point do we agree that in order to pursue life, liberty, security we must share our thoughts, feelings, and morality?  And at what point do we agree that protecting our thoughts, feelings, and morality becomes a shared responsibility?  

On the one hand, us freedom lovers call on our sleepy countrymen to wake up and fight side by side with us to defend liberty.  We attack the media for their attempts to propagandize the masses with false doctrine, lies, and glittering generalities regarding freedom.  We accuse public officials and our "elite" of high treason, murder, and theft for taking advantage of its willful subjects.  Is lying and withholding information also a "victimless crime"?

On the other hand, we speak out strongly against laws that seek to control our thoughts, emotions, and morality.  We struggle with trying to separate our individual will from our individual liberty.  We are unable to provide clear and convincing arguments for the abolition of thought crimes, victimless crimes, and crimes against society or the state.  

We need a better understanding of the history and roots of our ideas of personal liberty.  We need a better understanding of the history of our laws and how the laws impact our personal freedom.  

I believe it is immoral to think about causing harm to another person.  Can/should the government try to control or punish someone for that with laws?  No.  




> the State must wholly refrain from every attempt to operate directly or indirectly on the morals and character of the nation, otherwise than as such a policy may become inevitable as a natural consequence of its other absolutely necessary measures; and that everything calculated to promote such a design, and particularly all special supervision of education, religion, sumptuary laws, etc., lies wholly outside the limits of its legitimate activity.


Wilhelm von Humboldt, The Sphere and Duties of Government. Translated from the German of Baron Wilhelm von Humboldt, by Joseph Coulthard, Jun. (London: John Chapman, 1854). Chapter: CHAPTER VIII.: amelioration of morals.

Accessed from http://oll.libertyfund.org/title/589/45502 on 2009-02-05

----------


## DamianTV

I think that the mentality of the people has more to do with the way our legal system ends up than most peole think.  Ron even addressed this.  He called it "Entitlement".  

IE you burped in my face and it was gross so Im then entitled to take some form of compensation from you or the government.

The important thing is that freedom minded individuals have a total conflict of interest when it comes to Freedom vs Entitlement.  When Entitlement wins, Socialism wins and Freedom pays the price.

----------


## pcosmar

Originally Posted by *pcosmar*  
I have known someone convicted of "Attempted sale of an Immitation Controled substance".
WTF




> Wait, what?


Ooh, , Well
Since you ask. This was many years ago and I have no link to the story.
I knew this person in prison, in fact, I typed his Face Sheet on admission.

It seems it was some kind of drug sting, He suspected something was up, so he attempted to sell the narc some harmless powder.
They stacked charges on him totaling over 1200 years.( Typing all the separate charges took quite some time). 
Seems that fools don't like to be fooled.
He was still fighting appeals when I left.

----------

