# News & Current Events > World News & Affairs >  Ron Paul: Israel is Our Close Friend

## FrankRep

*Ron Paul Responds to President Obama's Middle East Speech*


EON: Enhanced Online News
May 19, 2011


LAKE JACKSON, Texas -- Ron Paul, a twelve-term U.S. congressman, member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, and 2012 Republican Presidential Candidate, remarked on President Obama’s speech earlier today about the United States’ Middle East policy. Please see the statement below.

“The President gave a speech today about our foreign policy in the Middle East, and *once again this administration has proven that it does not understand a proper foreign policy for America*. When will our leaders finally do what’s right for America and rethink this irrational approach we’ve followed for far too long?

“*Israel is our close friend.* While President Obama’s demand that Israel make hard concessions in her border conflicts may very well be in her long-term interest, only Israel can make that determination on her own, without pressure from the United States or coercion by the United Nations.

“*Unlike this President, I do not believe it is our place to dictate how Israel runs her affairs.* There can only be peace in the region if those sides work out their differences among one another. We should respect Israel’s sovereignty and not try to dictate her policy from Washington.

“The President also defended his unconstitutional intervention in Libya, authorized not by the United States Congress but by the United Nations, and announced new plans to pressure Syria and force the leader of that country to step down.

“Our military is already dangerously extended, and this administration wants to expand our involvement. When will our bombing in Libya end? Is President Obama seriously considering military action against Syria? We are facing $2 trillion dollar deficits, and the American taxpayer cannot afford any of it.

“Our military’s purpose is to defend our country, not to police the Middle East.

“As the President prepares to send even more support to Egypt, we should be reminded that it was our foreign aid that helped Mubarak retain power to repress his people in the first place. Now we have to deal with the consequences of those decisions, yet we keep repeating the same mistakes.

“I am not the only one who can see the absurdities of our foreign policy. We give $3 billion to Israel and $12 billion to her enemies. Most Americans know that makes no sense.

“We need to come to our senses, trade with our friends in the Middle East (both Arab and Israeli), clean up our own economic mess so we set a good example, and allow them to work out their own conflicts.”


Contacts

LIBERTY PAC
Gary Howard, 1-800-RON-PAUL


*SOURCE:*
http://eon.businesswire.com/news/eon/20110519007204/en

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## wizardwatson

Out of everything he said, you picked "Israel is our close friend" for the thread title.  Come on Frank.  You could've at least added a "but...".

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## FrankRep

> Out of everything he said, you picked "Israel is our close friend" for the thread title.  Come on Frank.  You could've at least added a "but...".


With all the Israel bashing on Ron Paul Forums, I figured I'd point out Ron Paul's view on Israel.

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## Justinjj1

It's not my close friend.

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## squarepusher

> With all the Israel bashing on Ron Paul Forums, I figured I'd point out Ron Paul's view on Israel.


nice catch

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## UK4Paul

*“I am not the only one who can see the absurdities of our foreign policy. We give $3 billion to Israel and $12 billion to her enemies. Most Americans know that makes no sense."* - Ron Paul

That's a keeper, right there.

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## t0rnado

Israel is a parasitic, terrorist conglomerate that celebrates when the US is attacked:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/report-n...srael-1.244044

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## sailingaway

> With all the Israel bashing on Ron Paul Forums, I figured I'd point out Ron Paul's view on Israel.


Oh, come on, you make it sound like that is the predominant theme.  Most here are noninterventionist, across the board, and consider Israel an ally, but also a focus for trouble for us, since we tend to do idiotic things around that relationship.  A couple or few, max are 'anti-Israel'.

However, as evidenced by the comment above, those posters do seem to gravitate to threads like this.  Frankly, the heading is counterproductive, to that extent.

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## Sergeant Brother

> Israel is a parasitic, terrorist conglomerate that celebrates when the US is attacked:
> 
> http://www.haaretz.com/news/report-n...srael-1.244044


Correct. If any nation on earth is a true enemy of the United States it is Israel and I don't believe that any country presents as big a threat to us as Israel does.

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## erowe1

> With all the Israel bashing on Ron Paul Forums, I figured I'd point out Ron Paul's view on Israel.


+ Rep.

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## wizardwatson

> With all the Israel bashing on Ron Paul Forums, I figured I'd point out Ron Paul's view on Israel.


If Ron Paul thinks Israel is a "close friend" I'd like to ask a question to Ron.  If Israel was attacked in an act of war, should we help defend them?

Judging by the last RP statement in the OP I'm guessing the answer would be no.

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## undergroundrr

I wonder if there's a tendency for minarchists to be more virulently anti-Zionist than anarchists.

As an anarchist, I'd say all nation-states are dangerous to the people within them.  All borders are defined to keep sheep in a pen.  All of them will try to expand those borders to accumulate more human livestock.  I can't see why Israel is particularly worse than any other.

Why do people think Israel has taken over the US?  I agree with RP that it's more the other way around.  In essence, he's saying Israel has been annexed as the 51st state.  They have the right to secede.

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## bobbyw24

> With all the Israel bashing on Ron Paul Forums, I figured I'd point out Ron Paul's view on Israel.


Nice to read some diversity of opinion here.

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## brandon

> With all the Israel bashing on Ron Paul Forums, I figured I'd point out Ron Paul's view on Israel.


I think it's kind of like saying "I have a lot of gay friends..." before making a joke bashing gays. It may or may not be true, but you gotta cover your ass (strange unintended pun) in today's world.

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## FrankRep

> I think it's kind of like saying "I have a lot of gay friends..." before making a joke bashing gays. It may or may not be true, but you gotta cover your ass (strange unintended pun) in today's world.


Ron Paul isn't bashing Israel.

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## towedoubled

A fairweather friend indeed.  We've been warned what will happen if foreign and military aid to the Israel, IMF, NATO, UN.  All treaties which must be honored as law of the land. I want to believe that Ron Paul has studied the subject thoroughly and will make the correct decisions.

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## Johncjackson

> Ron Paul isn't bashing Israel.


There's just no explaining that to anyone. For whatever reason, there is a large contingent of Ron Paul supporters ( Supporters!) who hate Israel, Jews, Mexicans, nose picking, whatever. They need to feel RP feels the same way.

Maybe he does. Maybe I'm wrong. Who knows? I just think that is irrelevant to the point- the proper role of the U.S. federal government when it comes to intervening in the affairs of other nations. 

This is an important distinction to make. And I think you get that. Not supporting meddling in the affairs of Israel does not mean one is anti-Israel or an anti-semite or whatever other smear/characterization. Also, this is politics. For whatever reason some supporters want to reduce every policy position to beliefs that are not only often repugnant but also politically retarded.

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## Johncjackson

> If Ron Paul thinks Israel is a "close friend" I'd like to ask a question to Ron.  If Israel was attacked in an act of war, should we help defend them?
> 
> Judging by the last RP statement in the OP I'm guessing the answer would be no.


It could easily be argued on principle that we shouldn't go to war to help any friend, no matter how close.

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## brandon

> Ron Paul isn't bashing Israel.


And he also wasn't saying Israel was his friend. It was a loose analogy. I'm suggesting that he has to qualify his remarks with some sort of positive spin to avoid the political assassins who come after all who go near the 3rd rail of politics.

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## LibertyEagle

Guys, are you wanting to help Ron Paul win the Republican nomination?  Last time I checked, the vast number of Republicans do not hate our soldiers, nor do they detest Israel.  So, having comments all over the forums to those ends does not seem to be congruent with accomplishing our mission.  Just my opinion though.

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## doodle

A close friend who does not deserve a single penny of tax payers welfare aid... like all the other close friends.

Although with stuff like Lavon affair (false flag terror attacks on US/UK building in order to prolong US military presence in mideast) ,  Jonathon Pollard's massive US  military secrets theft and transnfer to Russia via Israel, transfer of sensitive US military technology to China, one has to wonder does close=sincere in this relationship?

Besides, a friend in need is friend indeed; how many troops Israel sent to front lines in Iraq, Afghanistan in America's hour of need?

We know UK, Turkey, Jordan had their troops die in Afghanistan standing with America.  Friendship is more than empty words and perpetual one way welfare aid gravy train.

I don't recall leader of any other "friend" of America saying that  9/11 terror attacks were good for them like Israeli PM did in domestic hebrew conversation.




> UK Jewish MP: Israel acting like Nazis in Gaza
> 
> January 16, 2009
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8

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## specsaregood

> However, as evidenced by the comment above, those posters do seem to gravitate to threads like this.  Frankly, the heading is counterproductive, to that extent.


It was really just bait for the haters to come out.  I appreciate what Frank was attempting to do, but it wouldn't take a fortune teller to predict the reaction from some.

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## specsaregood

> Guys, are you wanting to help Ron Paul win the Republican nomination?  Last time I checked, the vast number of Republicans do not hate our soliders, nor do they detest Israel.  So, having comments all over the forums to those ends does not seem to be congruent with accomplishing our mission.  Just my opinion though.


You would hope some would self-regulate themselves a bit more.

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## Chieppa1

wouldn't it be better to educate our public on the problems with blindly defending Israel?

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## specsaregood

> wouldn't it be better to educate our public on the problems with blindly defending Israel?


Not nearly as effective as the current strategy of selling as in Israel's best interest to get out of her way.  Same end result, better sales pitch.

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## FrankRep

> It was really just bait for the haters to come out.  I appreciate what Frank was attempting to do, but it wouldn't take a fortune teller to predict the reaction from some.


All the anti-Israel people are only hurting Ron Paul. I wish they understood that.

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## stu2002

After reading this thread, I am shocked that Ron Paul supporters are accused if being anti Israel. Libertarians who are anti Israel. No way!!!!

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## Krugerrand

I'm thinking Lord Barry's speech is just to set up a facade of strife between the US and Israel prior to initiating an attack in Syria or somewhere else in the Middle East.

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## KingRobbStark

Of course they're our friends!!! We give them billions of dollars.

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## LibertyEagle

> You would hope some would self-regulate themselves a bit more.


Yup.  That is my hope.

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## LibertyEagle

> All the anti-Israel people are only hurting Ron Paul. I wish they understood that.


It doesn't appear that they care.

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## undergroundrr

> wouldn't it be better to educate our public on the problems with blindly defending xxxxxx any country?


Fixed it for you.  Ron Paul is non-interventionist, not anti-Israel.  If you are anti-Israel, you'll have to accept that as a friendly and reconcilable difference between your views and his.

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## Chieppa1

> Fixed it for you.  Ron Paul is non-interventionist, not anti-Israel.  If you are anti-Israel, you'll have to accept that as a friendly and reconcilable difference between your views and his.


I'm not anti-Israel. Well, kind of. Anti-Israeli government. I'm anti-watering down our discussions and debates so people don't make fun of us. I'm anti-intellectual laziness. I'm against not pointing out the ills of our policy with Israel. And please don't tell me Ron Paul isn't anti-fencing in a population of people and taking their freedom and dignity. He is. Any one who believes in Liberty does. Its just not a political position he pushes.

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## doodle

> Of course they're our friends!!! We give them billions of dollars.


In return, what does US get ..besides 9/11 type blowbacks and groping of American kids at airports?

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## specsaregood

> In return, what does US get ..besides 9/11 type blowbacks and groping of American kids at airports?


Funny enough, Israel doesn't do the groping or use the body scanners at their airports so I'm not too sure we can blame that on them.

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## bobbyw24

> You would hope some would self-regulate themselves a bit more.


Or we could pray.

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## LibertyEagle

> In return, what does US get ..besides 9/11 type blowbacks and groping of American kids at airports?


Uh, weren't OUR troops on their holy lands?  Because I am thinking they were.  I do believe bin Laden mentioned that in his fatwa as a reason they were angry.

You know, it's easy to blame Israel for everything we hate that our own government is doing, but it is OUR government that is doing those things.  They have a choice.  Put the blame where it belongs and stop foreign aid to EVERYONE.

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## specsaregood

> Or we could pray.


LOL, throwing more red meat into the thread...

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## Krugerrand

> Uh, weren't OUR troops on their holy lands?  Because I am thinking they were.  I do believe bin Laden mentioned that in his fatwa as a reason they were angry.
> 
> You know, it's easy to blame Israel for everything we hate that our own government is doing, but it is OUR government that is doing those things.  They have a choice.  Put the blame where it belongs and stop foreign aid to EVERYONE.


While that's true.  Let's not forget that the decision makers that put our troops there are supporters of and supported by groups like APAIC.  I don't see these international decisions being supported by other single-nation focused lobby groups - especially on such a grand scale.

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## doodle

> Funny enough, Israel doesn't do the groping or use the body scanners at their airports so I'm not too sure we can blame that on them.


That is where it all started..we are just following their way of "secure living". The mandatory cell phone alerts from Obama that Obama is implementing are also coming from there.

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## LibertyEagle

> While that's true.  Let's not forget that the decision makers that put our troops there are supporters of and supported by groups like APAIC.  I don't see these international decisions being supported by other single-nation focused lobby groups - especially on such a grand scale.


I haven't forgotten and I agree with you.  But, AIPAC can only influence them because members of our government are crooked.  So, it still goes back to our government.  They are the ones at fault.

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## LibertyEagle

> That is where it all started..we are just following their way of "secure living". The mandatory cell phone alerts from Obama that Obama is implementing are also coming from there.


Again, what another country does or doesn't do, should not be any of our business.  This is one of the many reasons why we want to end foreign aid, right?  We want to take a position of non-intervention.  

What another country does should not mean that our own government follows suit.  You know, this blaming of Israel for what our own government is doing, reminds me a lot of how, if your boyfriend or girlfriend has an affair with someone else, some people blame the person they are having the affair with, instead of their own mate.  Maybe because it's less painful.  I don't know.

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## Krugerrand

> Again, what another country does or doesn't do, should not be any of our business.  This is one of the many reasons why we want to end foreign aid, right?  We want to take a position of non-intervention.  
> 
> What another country does should not mean that our own government follows suit.  You know, this blaming of Israel for what our own government is doing, reminds me a lot of how, if your boyfriend or girlfriend has an affair with someone else, some people blame the person they are having the affair with, instead of their own mate.  Maybe because it's less painful.  I don't know.


That's a pretty good example.  I would hope you can see why somebody would have more negative emotions towards the cheater that was with their spouse than the cheater that cheated with somebody else's spouse.

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## dannno

> With all the Israel bashing on Ron Paul Forums, I figured I'd point out Ron Paul's view on Israel.


Frank, Frank Frank.....The Israel bashing is warranted, although I consider myself a friend of the *people* of Israel just like I consider the *people* of any nation my friend, for they are not my enemy. 

Ron Paul is a genius..




> *While President Obama’s demand that Israel make hard concessions in her border conflicts may very well be in her long-term interest*, only Israel can make that determination on her own, without pressure from the United States or coercion by the United Nations.p


So he is suggesting that Israel back the $#@! off and leave the Palestinians alone so they can have peace. He just doesn't want to force them to do it.

You also must have forgotten the time when Ron Paul said that Gaza is like a concentration camp?

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## dannno

> Ron Paul isn't bashing Israel.


Was he bashing Israel when he said Gaza is like a concentration camp?

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## undergroundrr

Chieppa1, absolutely he's against injustice and oppression.  That's why singling out a foreign nation for condemnation or special treatment is directly counter to his message.  It's one of the key things he's been the sole vote against over and over in congress.  Those who feel Israel in particular needs to be put in its place are not going to get what they want from Ron Paul.  In fact, his point here is that non-intervention could quite possibly make Israel stronger and more secure to take what action it finds beneficial as a soverign nation.

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## angelatc

> Out of everything he said, you picked "Israel is our close friend" for the thread title.  Come on Frank.  You could've at least added a "but...".


I think it is a great title.

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## doodle

> Was he bashing Israel when he said Gaza is like a concentration camp?


This technically is a difficult and even bit dangerous question.

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## FrankRep

*Ron Paul to Obama: Stop Dictating to Israel*
http://www.newsmax.com/DougWead/ronp...5/20/id/397095

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## robmpreston

> *Ron Paul to Obama: Stop Dictating to Israel*
> http://www.newsmax.com/DougWead/ronp...5/20/id/397095


I wonder how much FrankRep gets paid to make these constant posts? I've seen this on a number of political forums... posters whose only purpose seems to be to defend Israel in thread after thread. Probably AIPAC people.

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## robert68

Ron Paul’s stance to end all foreign aid across the board and overall non-interventionist position and record on US relations with other countries, is clearly superior to all other Republican candidates.

However, in his book "Liberty Defined", the chapter “Zionism” contains very flawed thinking and history, and is significantly at odds with libertarian principles. When the book first came out, much of that chapter was available online at Amazon.com, which is where I read it. That chapter is no longer available there, and I don’t yet own the book, so I unfortunately can’t quote from it here. Israel isn’t remotely a friend of libertarian principles, or Liberty, if that is approximately what one means by Liberty.

To start with in the chapter, as I recall, he shows the belief in the diaspora myth, that the Israelites of 2000 years ago are the same people as those who identify themselves today as Jews; and he justifies a property rights claim by this.

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## undergroundrr

> Israel isn’t remotely a friend of libertarian principles, or Liberty, if that is approximately what one means by Liberty.


I know of no nation-state that is remotely a friend of libertarian principles.  Why single out Israel above all others?  Why is their property rights claim uniquely heinous?  Both you and I are quite likely sitting on apprehended native property as we speak.

Ron Paul's message is that Israel is not special.  Its "friendship" should not be worth more OR LESS to the U.S. than any other territorial entity in the world.  Neoconservatives can make such distinctions in their think tanks, removed from political office.

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## FrankRep

Israeli Zionists and economists agree with Rand Paul and Ron Paul that US Foreign Aid is bad for Israel.

*Israeli Economists Agree with Rand Paul: End Foreign Aid*


Daniel Sayani | The New American 
07 February 2011


*Related Articles:*

*Senator Rand Paul: End All Foreign Aid*
Tea Party favorite and freshman Kentucky Senator Rand Paul may have crossed a third rail of politics by suggesting the federal government zero out all foreign aid, even to Israel, America's largest foreign aid recipient over the past 30 years.
*Senator Rand Paul Defends Israel*
Senator Rand Paul's stance against foreign aid for countries including Israel has raised controversy. However, this must be evaluated in the context of his broader pro-Israel policy.

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## GuerrillaXXI

> I know of no nation-state that is remotely a friend of libertarian principles.  Why single out Israel above all others?  Why is their property rights claim uniquely heinous?  Both you and I are quite likely sitting on apprehended native property as we speak.


Well, that comparison doesn't really hold up. The theft of land from Native Americans happened so long ago that it can't be reversed, and we who live on that land today had no part in its theft. In contrast, the Israeli theft of Arab land continues to this day, even during this age of international law intended to prevent such aggressive territorial expansion. Also, Native Americans in the US today have all the rights of any other American. There are no laws preventing them from living anywhere they want to. Israel is a Jewish ethnostate in which only Jews have full rights, and much of the land there is off-limits for sale to non-Jews.

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## marc1888

> With all the Israel bashing on Ron Paul Forums, I figured I'd point out Ron Paul's view on Israel.


I dont think Ron Paul gives a $#@! about Israel or any other state for that matter outwith the United States. That however is not a vote winner with all those fundamentalist crackpots running around  So he makes a comment that on the surface will appease the stupid folks but when you read it says the exact same thing Ron Paul has always said.

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## GuerrillaXXI

> I wonder how much FrankRep gets paid to make these constant posts? I've seen this on a number of political forums... posters whose only purpose seems to be to defend Israel in thread after thread. Probably AIPAC people.


I won't speculate on any posters here, but there is a loose network of activists worldwide whose purpose is to spread pro-Israel propaganda. Much of their activity is organized by Israel's Foreign Ministry. This is called _hasbara_:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ministry-media

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_...y_%28Israel%29

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## nolvorite

its our job to help them I suppose, but we shouldn't INTERVENE in their businesses as if we know what's better for them better than what they think would be more beneficial to themselves.

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## lester1/2jr

I don't like this statement even though I agree with it. No, we sholdn't tell Israel what to do but that's BECAUSE we should't be giving them billions and we shouldn't be policing the world.

Ron's statement is too easy to interpret as "we should do what they say and shut up" a la the typical statist line for both parties. I know he doesn't feel that way but he should have added "we shouldn't be fighting their enemies for them" and other points.

You would walk away from this thinking he was a typical republican on the issue and he obviously isn't.

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## puppetmaster

Why do people call countries. "her"

ie "her affairs"
"her borders"

kinda creepy when I hear that, don't know why. I wonder why land masses get a sex?

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## LibertyEagle

> I wonder how much FrankRep gets paid to make these constant posts? I've seen this on a number of political forums... posters whose only purpose seems to be to defend Israel in thread after thread. Probably AIPAC people.


Surely you jest.  Ron Paul is arguing to stop all foreign aid and against interventionism.  That is the story in that link you posted and it supports Dr. Paul's viewpoint.  AIPAC wants exactly the opposite.

Note:  And fyi, NewsMax is a publication that REPUBLICAN VOTERS read.  We want that article to go VIRAL!!  It will win people over to Ron Paul.  So, if Frank is spreading this article, kudos to Frank.  Some of us may want to help him.

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## ExPatPaki

Some people support Israel, because right wing Israelis support hatred of Muslim Americans via your tax dollars:

How Your Tax Dollars Fuel the Hatred of Muslims

Support for Israel = Secret hatred for Muslims.

You can't REALLY support Israel, unless you have a genocidal hatred of Palestinians.

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## Dr.3D

> I won't speculate on any posters here, but there is a loose network of activists worldwide whose purpose is to spread pro-Israel propaganda. Much of their activity is organized by Israel's Foreign Ministry. This is called _hasbara_:
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ministry-media
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_...y_%28Israel%29


Shhh... we don't won't mention the activists worldwide whose purpose is to spread anti-Israel propaganda.

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## LibertyEagle

> I dont think Ron Paul gives a $#@! about Israel or any other state for that matter outwith the United States. That however is not a vote winner with all those *fundamentalist crackpots* running around  So he makes a comment that on the surface will appease the stupid folks but when you read it says the exact same thing Ron Paul has always said.


You mean like Ron Paul, Rand Paul, and the vast majority of the VOTERS in the Republican party whose votes Dr. Paul needs to win the Republican nomination?  THOSE people?

Seriously, cut it out with attacking a person's faith.

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## FrankRep

> Support for Israel = Secret hatred for Muslims.
> 
> You can't REALLY support Israel, unless you have a genocidal hatred of Palestinians.


Are you accusing Ron Paul of having "genocidal hatred" for Palestinians? 

Your anti-Israel propaganda is over excessive.

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## ExPatPaki

> Are you accusing Ron Paul of having "genocidal hatred" for Palestinians? 
> 
> Your anti-Israel propaganda is over excessive.


No, because Ron Paul doesn't "REALLY" support Israel. If Ron Paul did "REALLY" support Israel, he would tell Israel to kill every single Palestinian man, woman and child and be done with it.

The only person with genocidal hatred for Palestinians, is you, Frank.

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## FrankRep

> No, because Ron Paul doesn't "REALLY" support Israel. If Ron Paul did "REALLY" support Israel, he would tell Israel to kill every single Palestinian man, woman and child and be done with it.


Sounds like Ron Paul supports Israel by saying "Israel is our close friend" and "We should respect Israel’s sovereignty .."


*Ron Paul:*

“*Israel is our close friend*. While President Obama’s demand that Israel make hard concessions in her border conflicts may very well be in her long-term interest, only Israel can make that determination on her own, without pressure from the United States or coercion by the United Nations.

“Unlike this President, I do not believe it is our place to dictate how Israel runs her affairs. There can only be peace in the region if those sides work out their differences among one another. *We should respect Israel’s sovereignty and not try to dictate her policy from Washington.*

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## LibertyEagle

> No, because Ron Paul doesn't "REALLY" support Israel. If Ron Paul did "REALLY" support Israel, he would tell Israel to kill every single Palestinian man, woman and child and be done with it.


Sorry, but that is ridiculous.

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## ExPatPaki

> Your anti-Israel propaganda is over excessive.


As opposed to the anti-Muslim lies you like to spread around like a little spamming troll?

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## ExPatPaki

> Sorry, but that is ridiculous.


Israeli policies are ridiculous when it comes to their treatment of the Palestinians.

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## UK4Paul

The word "support" is wrong. I think Ron Paul is trying to say that the U.S. shouldn't be going around "supporting" ANY country.

Besides, *foreign aid isn't really support... it's the purchase of political influence*.

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## iGGz

"There can only be peace in the region if those sides work out their differences among one another."

Bada Bing

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## EndDaFed

What is with everyone's love for a police state that sicks dogs, has an economic embargo, and has checkpoints forced onto the people of Gaza?

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## lester1/2jr

from AIPAC




> Call House Members TODAY and Urge Them to Support Full FY 2011 Funding for Israel and Oppose the Paul Amendment that would eliminate aid to Israel   
> Floor action scheduled today on Israel’s aid
> 
> House
> 
> The House is now considering a government spending bill to fund the government through the remainder of the year.  The bill includes $3 billion in security assistance for Israel in addition to funding for the Iron Dome rocket defense system.
> 
> Congressman Ron Paul (R-TX) plans to offer an amendment that would eliminate Israel’s security assistance. If this amendment were to prevail, Israel’s aid would be stripped out of the bill.  As a result, Israel would receive NO foreign aid for the remainder of fiscal year 2011.



so don't forget he isn't anti Israel OR pro israel. anything else is spin.

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## dannno

> Sounds like Ron Paul supports Israel by saying "Israel is our close friend" and "We should respect Israel’s sovereignty .."


He supports their sovereignty but not the mission of the Israeli state which is driving out or exterminating every last Palestinian.

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## South Park Fan

While I wouldn't use such language that could be misconstrued for approving of an entangling alliance, I agree with Ron Paul's position on this issue. It is good that he emphasizes the importance of respecting other nations' sovereignty, and points out how the foreign aid we give threatens that sovereignty.

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## YumYum

> What is with everyone's love for a police state that sicks dogs, has an economic embargo, and has checkpoints forced onto the people of the Warsaw Ghetto (Gaza)?


Good question.

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## Flash

This is why Neo-Cons need to realize interventionism is retarded. The same nation that has the power to protect & establish Israel will ALSO has the same power to destroy Israel. When will people wake up?

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## robert68

> Well, that comparison doesn't really hold up. The theft of land from Native Americans happened so long ago that it can't be reversed, and we who live on that land today had no part in its theft. In contrast, the Israeli theft of Arab land continues to this day, even during this age of international law intended to prevent such aggressive territorial expansion. Also, Native Americans in the US today have all the rights of any other American. There are no laws preventing them from living anywhere they want to. Israel is a Jewish ethnostate in which only Jews have full rights, and much of the land there is off-limits for sale to non-Jews.


Indeed, and there’s only around 2 million living Native Americans to the mainland US, which is 300 times larger territorially than historic Palestine, which has around 9 million natives, the Palestinians, most of which are refugees and none of which have full citizenship rights. The two realities are extremely different.

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## Sergeant Brother

Ron Paul is being political here, I'm not sure if that is a good thing or not. While it might increase his chances of getting elected, one of the reason he has had as much success as he has and created such a movement is because he has been willing to say the truth no matter how unpopular it might be. Maybe if he criticized Israel openly it might be better than increasing his already slim chances of getting elected by a small margin - then at least he might open a few people's eyes to how much our "friendship" with Israel hurts the United States. 

I do realize though that Ron Paul isn't pro or anti Israel, he takes a non-interventionist position which means neutrality to Israel. Now, I think that any reasonable American should be anti-Israel considering the terrible things that Israel has done not only the the Palestinians but also to the US, but I support Ron Paul in part because his position towards Israel at least isn't treason, which can't be said for many other presidential candidates.

----------


## raiha

Hopefully none of us here are racist. For myself I judge a person by their actions and behaviour. Sadly, much of what I see coming out of Israel, is heinous behaviour based on a bizarre myth. I am impressed by many rabbis, some journalists (for Haaretz for example) but sadly there are many pockets of sepsis (ie of hostility and racism) that comes out of Israel which is based on a deluded sense of superiority, much like the Puritans who thought they had come to the Promised Land and were also the chosen people. I suspect the ones who cannot not see how evil the land-grabbing, ghetto building behaviour is, are descendants of those very sanctimonious, mealy-mouthed, self-righteous, bible-thumping, arrogant, individuals.

Steve Covey talks of the Sphere of Influence and the Sphere of Concern. If we are friends of the world, which  is what RP constantly talks about, then presumably our Sphere of Concern would incorporate the entire world, not to say, universe!
Our Sphere of Influence should be according to what is our business. Otherwise, dismissing any injustice in the world as none of our business, reeks of xenophobic individualism.

----------


## Liberty Shark

When you are giving billions of dollars in foreign aid to a country, you have sufficient reason to dictate certain terms.
The difficulty here is that the Congress is going to continue to send that aid, and a President won't veto it. At this point, the President being in charge of much of foreign policy matters can and should use any available pressure means to advance the national interest.
On the question of whether or not Israel is a friend. That is debatable. Many evangelicals and jews in the US may consider Israel to be a friend, but people with no personal interest and affection for a foreign entity, such as Israel, probably don't find Israel to be much of a friend at all. In terms of muslim/arab perception of the US, Israel is like a 200 pound weight tied to the US, dragging it down into the mud, for little reason other than personal attachment, not in terms of national security interests.

----------


## sunghoko

friend ≠ entangling political alliance

RP doesn't want to take a side.




> Support for Israel = Secret hatred for Muslims.
> 
> You can't REALLY support Israel, unless you have a genocidal hatred of Palestinians.


that's way over the top.

----------


## libertybrewcity

I completely agree with what has said in the article about Israel and foreign policy. It makes sense. I do think that RP should take a trip to Israel and some countries in the Middle East to beef up his foreign policy positions.

----------


## Bman

> Israeli policies are ridiculous when it comes to their treatment of the Palestinians.


GEE golly willikers!  Name me a government whose policy you don't think is ridiculous when it comes to the treatment of a group not of that country.  If roles were reversed it would be same $#@! different day.

----------


## Bman

> I completely agree with what has said in the article about Israel and foreign policy. It makes sense. I do think that RP should take a trip to Israel and some countries in the Middle East to beef up his foreign policy positions.


I agree with that assessment.

----------


## TexanRudeBoy

> With all the Israel bashing on Ron Paul Forums, I figured I'd point out Ron Paul's view on Israel in the most misleading way I possibly could


Fixed

----------


## TexanRudeBoy

> When you are giving billions of dollars in foreign aid to a country, you have sufficient reason to dictate certain terms.
> The difficulty here is that the Congress is going to continue to send that aid, and a President won't veto it. At this point, the President being in charge of much of foreign policy matters can and should use any available pressure means to advance the national interest.
> On the question of whether or not Israel is a friend. That is debatable. Many evangelicals and jews in the US may consider Israel to be a friend, but people with no personal interest and affection for a foreign entity, such as Israel, probably don't find Israel to be much of a friend at all. In terms of muslim/arab perception of the US, Israel is like a 200 pound weight tied to the US, dragging it down into the mud, for little reason other than personal attachment, not in terms of national security interests.



Can someone name me ANYTHING Israel actually does for us?

----------


## eproxy100

Though there are a lot of arguments here regarding israel, most people in these forums agree on the non-intervention policy.

The problem is when some members choose to support a neocon candidate simply because foreign policy is not a priority to that member. It's not a priority to them usually cuz they're pro-zionists. They say something like "at least this guy is not a socialist and supports our rights". Well that's how the tea party got neoconned. And that's like saying "at least these democrats are anti-war". We definitely don't wanna go down that route. Better to lose now and continue spreading the message rather than be co-opted.




> Can someone name me ANYTHING Israel actually does for us?


The silence is defeaning, isn't it?

BTW, I don't think it's necessarily Israel that has so much influence on the US. There are a lot of zionists within the US, who are probably mostly Christians, that are very influential. I think they're the ones who are responsible for the current policies and favoritism towards Israel.

----------


## doodle

Michele Bachmann: *If We Dont Completely Support Israel, God Will Curse Us*

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Out of everything he said, you picked "Israel is our close friend" for the thread title.  Come on Frank.  You could've at least added a "but...".


*R e p u b l i c a n

P r i m a r y*

----------


## YumYum

Israel is our close friend.

----------


## Feeding the Abscess

> *R e p u b l i c a n
> 
> P r i m a r y*


Yep.

And even then, he's avoiding the word "ally". Love it.

----------


## ExPatPaki

*US diversions

In the past three decades, Arab leaders allied with the United States (and even the few who were not) have been telling their peoples that Iran, Shia, Sunni Islamists, the Palestinian people and their wretched cause, among others, are the reason for the hardship of Arabs. Indeed this conjuring up of enemies started with the US-Saudi-Kuwaiti plan to subcontract an all-out war against revolutionary Iran, as the enemy of Arabs, which was launched by Saddam Hussein in 1981 to defend America's oil wells - and which resulted by 1988 in the death of one million Iranians and 400,000 Iraqis.

In the meantime, and since the late 1960s, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon have engaged in wars with the Palestinian guerrillas and against Palestinian civilians, whom they identified as the enemy. Egypt launched a war against Libya when Sadat was in power, and later, under Mubarak, against its own Islamists and against the Palestinian people. Indeed even Algeria was conjured up as the enemy of Egyptians in Mubarak's last year on the throne.

Saudi Arabia, while repressing all of its population in the name of Wahabism, has not stopped hatching various plans (and plots) since 1982 to bring Israel into the Arab fold. When President Obama peddles the Israeli lie, that his pro-Israel advisors at the White House - and there has been no other kinds of Middle East advisors at the White House since the Clinton administration - feed him, that "too many leaders in the region tried to direct their people's grievances elsewhere. The West was blamed as the source of all ills, a half-century after the end of colonialism. Antagonism toward Israel became the only acceptable outlet for political expression," to which leaders is he actually referring? Sadat, Mubarak, Ben Ali, Kings Hussein and Abdullah II of Jordan, Kings Hasan II and Muhammad VI of Morocco, President Bouteflika, any of the Gulf monarchs or the two Hariri prime ministers, Rafiq and Saad?

Not only are such lies not believable to anyone in the wider world, but also, were the US administration to believe them, explain the ongoing foreign policy failures in a region the US insists on dominating - but which it refuses to learn much about.*


Emperor Obama vs the Arab people

----------


## jmdrake

> With all the Israel bashing on Ron Paul Forums, I figured I'd point out Ron Paul's view on Israel.


The founding fathers' view would be that Israel, Iran, Syria, Libya, Great Britain, France, China, Russia and any other nation you can think of should be our "close friend".

*"Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations — entangling alliances with none." ~ Thomas Jefferson*

----------


## robert68

> Ron Paul’s stance to end all foreign aid across the board and overall non-interventionist position and record on US relations with other countries, is clearly superior to all other Republican candidates.
> 
> However, in his book "Liberty Defined", the chapter “Zionism” contains very flawed thinking and history, and is significantly at odds with libertarian principles. When the book first came out, much of that chapter was available online at Amazon.com, which is where I read it. That chapter is no longer available there, and I don’t yet own the book, so I unfortunately can’t quote from it here. Israel isn’t remotely a friend of libertarian principles, or Liberty, if that is approximately what one means by Liberty.
> 
> To start with in the chapter, as I recall, he shows the belief in the diaspora myth, that the Israelites of 2000 years ago are the same people as those who identify themselves today as Jews; and he justifies a property rights claim by this.


Following up with the above post, in the chapter "Zionism" of Ron Paul’s “Liberty Defined”, he writes the following:




> There is no doubt that Jews have a historic claim on the land itself. The Bar Kochba revolt in AD 135 against' the Roman Empire prompted a large number of Jews to be exiled from the area now known as Israel. Some historians report that the Jewish population of 300,000 was further reduced to a thousand families during the Christian Crusades in the Holy Lands.


This is Zionist fiction.  Those who call themselves Jews today are not an ethnic block with lineage back to the territory of historic Palestine 2,000 years ago. 

He also writes:



> From the 1890s until 1948, when Israel became a sovereign nation carved out of Palestine, immigration was mostly voluntary, gradual, and accomplished with due respect for existing land titles. Zionism, during the first forty years of this movement, was not about taking land by force nor was it about militarism.


This is grade A Zionist fiction. One can start with the many words and observations of Jewish Russian Ahad Ha'Am here.

Then there’s Attorney Stephen Halbrook’s well sourced article titled “The Alienation of a Homeland: How Palestine Became Israel*", published in the The Journal of Libertarian Studies, Vol. V, No. 4 (Fall 1981), that lays out in detail what really happened. It begins with the following:



> “Attorney Stephen Halbrook traces the origins of Palestinian displacement from their homeland to the organized band of robbers known as the Ottoman Empire who presumed to transfer title to land long inhabited by Palestinians to absentee Arab and Turkish landlords. These State-enforced titles were in turn transferred to Zionist organizations who were in turn backed by organized bands of Zionist terrorists—the earliest manifestations of the statelet of Israel.”


There’s also the ruthless Special Night Squads led by psychopath British Officer Orde Wingate in 1938-39, to put down any Palestinian resistance to the ongoing Zionist land theft and intended takeover of Palestine.




> The Special Night Squads were a joint British-Jewish counter-insurgency unit, established by Captain Orde Wingate in Palestine in 1938, during the 1936-1939 Arab revolt. The SNS comprised British infantry soldiers and Jewish Supernumerary Police. Wingate hand-picked his men, among them Yigal Allon and Moshe Dayan, and trained them to form mobile ambushes...


Ron Paul also writes:



> A continual peaceful transformation would probably have occurred except for the political actions after World War II in which the United Nations turned a local and demographic issue into an international and highly politicized one.


This is just nonsense. The Zionist movement, from the beginning and throughout, has been an international and political movement, never local; and the few Palestinan Jews that there were in Palestine, opposed Zionism. In 1947, Jews, comprising around a third of the population, virtually all recent arrivals from Eastern Europe, held around 6 percent of the land of Palestine (largely acquired by force through the use of absentee landowners). Then, using largely British and US military weapons, they ruthlessly drove most of the Palestinian population off the land they had lived on for centuries or more, and destroyed hundreds of villages. It’s well documented that the Zionist treatment of the Palestinians, over 100 years now, has been antithetical to everything libertarian principles (or Liberty) are about. Ron Paul's way off the mark on this subject.

There’s also Murray Rothbards article  on the subject.

----------


## BuddyRey

How can a government be someone's friend?  Also, who among us got to make the decision for _every_ American that Israel is our friend?  I know I was never consulted on the matter, and I'll bet most folks on these forums weren't either.  We don't even get to _choose_ our friends anymore?

----------


## FrankRep

Ron Paul likes Israel. bump.

----------


## Jeremy

> How can a government be someone's friend?  Also, who among us got to make the decision for _every_ American that Israel is our friend?  I know I was never consulted on the matter, and I'll bet most folks on these forums weren't either.  We don't even get to _choose_ our friends anymore?


Depends how you define "Israel" and "our".

----------


## pcosmar

> Depends how you define "Israel" and "our".


It depends on what the meaning of the word Is is.

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## eduardo89

> Israel is our close friend.


Ron Paul's first lie.

----------


## FrankRep

> Ron Paul's first lie.


You're calling Ron Paul a liar? Why?

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## ddavis

My priorities for selecting a candidate:  Cut the debt, repeal Obama care and support of Israel.  This website has Ron Paul's name on it.  I can not support a candidate that allows this antisemitic dribble.  Who are our friends in the Middle East? Hezbollah, Hamas or maybe the muslim brotherhood?  Israel is our only friend in the Middle East and the only one that deserves our help and compassion.

----------


## Dr.3D

> My priorities for selecting a candidate:  Cut the debt, repeal Obama care and support of Israel.  This website has Ron Paul's name on it.  I can not support a candidate that allows this antisemitic dribble.  Who are our friends in the Middle East? Hezbollah, Hamas or maybe the muslim brotherhood?  Israel is our only friend in the Middle East and the only one that deserves our help and compassion.


Ron Paul wants to stop all foreign aid, how is that antisemitic?

As for Ron allowing some kind of "antisemitic dribble", if you were to ask Ron to tell someone to stop doing something, he would respond by saying, "I can't stop them from doing it.   They are free to do as they please."

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> My priorities for selecting a candidate:  Cut the debt, repeal Obama care and support of Israel.  This website has Ron Paul's name on it. * I can not support a candidate that allows this antisemitic dribble.*  Who are our friends in the Middle East? Hezbollah, Hamas or maybe the muslim brotherhood?  Israel is our only friend in the Middle East and the only one that deserves our help and compassion.


Try learning what semitism is before you make these sort of absurd statements, plz.

----------


## ddavis

Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is "hatred toward Jews—individually and as a group—that can be attributed to the Jewish religion and/or ethnicity."   I fully understand what it means.  Thankfully, there is an awakening among Christians in this country.  Obama has already alienated the Jewish population.  We need a President that supports Israel.

----------


## Dr.3D

> Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is "hatred toward Jews—individually and as a group—that can be attributed to the Jewish religion and/or ethnicity."   I fully understand what it means.  Thankfully, there is an awakening among Christians in this country.  Obama has already alienated the Jewish population.  We need a President that supports Israel.


The President can support Israel without sending them money.

----------


## ddavis

Yes, the President can support Israel without sending money.  We shouldn't send any money to the Middle East.  Israel is the only country that we should sell arms.  We should give them anything that they need including the new stealth fighters.

----------


## cindy25

> Yes, the President can support Israel without sending money.  We shouldn't send any money to the Middle East.  Israel is the only country that we should sell arms.  We should give them anything that they need including the new stealth fighters.


we should SELL (not give) them anything they need; and the USA govt should not be involved, it should be a deal between the manufacturer and the IDF. but if Haliburton or GE wish to give them free weapons I'm ok with that.

----------


## AZKing

> This website has Ron Paul's name on it.


In case you have a hard time reading:




> RonPaulForums.com / LibertyForest.com is a *grassroots* web site with *absolutely no official connection* to Ron Paul, the Ron Paul 2012 presidential campaign, the Campaign For Liberty or any other election campaign.


The opinions of some members has absolutely nothing to do with Ron Paul. And if you don't like freedom of speech, you're probably supporting the wrong candidate. Try Obama if you like censorship. 




> Israel is the only country that we should sell arms.  We should give them anything that they need including the new stealth fighters.


Or we could just not sell arms to anyone and not be a bunch of war mongers. Novel idea there.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is "hatred toward Jews—individually and as a group—that can be attributed to the Jewish religion and/or ethnicity."   I fully understand what it means.  Thankfully, there is an awakening among Christians in this country.  Obama has already alienated the Jewish population.  We need a President that supports Israel.


 Anti-semitism is a hatred towards semities.  There are numerous types of semites. (Ironically, most of the Israeli-firsters are vehemently anti-semitic) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Semitic_peoples  Clearly, you don't understand what anti-semitism is.  You only understand one of the definitions of it.  

If "supports Israel" means avoiding entangling alliances with the Israelis and end welfare to them, yes we do need a president who would do that.

----------


## ddavis

> we should SELL (not give) them anything they need; and the USA govt should not be involved, it should be a deal between the manufacturer and the IDF. but if Haliburton or GE wish to give them free weapons I'm ok with that.


Weapons are and should be regulated.  The government should not allow any weapons to Middle Eastern countries with the exception of Israel.  Haliburton doesn't produce weapons.  I believe that GE might produce components for weapons.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Weapons are and should be regulated.  The government should not allow any weapons to Middle Eastern countries with the exception of Israel.  Haliburton doesn't produce weapons.  I believe that GE might produce components for weapons.

----------


## AZKing

> Weapons are and should be regulated.  The government should not allow any weapons to Middle Eastern countries with the exception of Israel.  Haliburton doesn't produce weapons.  I believe that GE might produce components for weapons.


Are you sure you don't like Obamacare? You sound pretty liberal to me.

----------


## erowe1

> Weapons are and should be regulated.


My first inclination is to think, "How can anyone possibly believe this?" But then I remember that I used to believe it.

Edit: For what it's worth ddavis, I'm with you on how off-putting the blatant anti-semitism of some RP supporters is. It boggles the mind that they don't see how they come across to people looking into RP. I hope you let him speak for himself and give him an honest chance.

----------


## ddavis

> Anti-semitism is a hatred towards semities.  There are numerous types of semites. (Ironically, most of the Israeli-firsters are vehemently anti-semitic) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Semitic_peoples  Clearly, you don't understand what anti-semitism is.  You only understand one of the definitions of it.  
> 
> If "supports Israel" means avoiding entangling alliances with the Israelis and end welfare to them, yes we do need a president who would do that.


No, I mean to totally support them.   The Palestinians plan to attack their borders from all sides, in the next few days.  If the IDF stacks Palestinians up like cords of wood, we support them.  We defend them to the world.

----------


## AZKing

> We defend them to the world.


With my money? No thanks.

You're welcome to send them your money, though. You can even go and volunteer with your own weapons if you want! I won't stop you.

----------


## ddavis

> Are you sure you don't like Obamacare? You sound pretty liberal to me.


What I said was current law and the obvious.

----------


## ddavis

> With my money? No thanks.
> 
> You're welcome to send them your money, though. You can even go and volunteer with your own weapons if you want! I won't stop you.


I do contribute.  In the early seventies, after my discharge from the Army, I went to Lebanon to train one the Christian militias.  I don't think that the IDF needs the help of an old man.

----------


## AZKing

> I do contribute.  In the early seventies, after my discharge from the Army, I went to Lebanon to train one the Christian militias.  I don't think that the IDF needs the help of an old man.


Well, I'm all about freedom. You're free to give your aid to Israel in any way shape or form and I'm also free to keep my money  Support 'em all you want, just not with the tax money that got taken away from me at threat of going to prison.

----------


## ddavis

AZKing, I understand.  I feel the same way when I see tax money going to groups like ACORN or Planned Parenthood.

----------


## erowe1

> What I said was current law and the obvious.


I take it you think the federal government we have now is a pretty good thing then. Huh?

----------


## YumYum

> No, I mean to totally support them.   *The Palestinians plan to attack their borders from all sides, in the next few days.*  If the IDF stacks Palestinians up like cords of wood, we support them.  We defend them to the world.


Where did you hear this?

----------


## erowe1

> Where did you hear this?


Glenn Beck.

----------


## erowe1

> The Palestinians plan to attack their borders from all sides, in the next few days.


Notice the way he uses the word "the" here, as if all Palestinians aren't unique individuals, kind of like how some people like to talk about "the Jews."

----------


## COpatriot

> Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is "hatred toward Jews—individually and as a group—that can be attributed to the Jewish religion and/or ethnicity."   I fully understand what it means.  Thankfully, there is an awakening among Christians in this country.  Obama has already alienated the Jewish population.  *We need a President that supports Israel*.


No we do not. We need a president who supports the United States of America. What you said there is solely a talking point of the far religious right and it is a cancer upon American politics and foreign policy. It is absolutely absurd to make the affairs of another nation x1,000 miles away in another hemisphere a priority above our own. Turn off Glenn Beck and tune in to reality.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> No we do not. We need a president who supports the United States of America. What you said there is solely a talking point of the far religious right and it is a cancer upon American politics and foreign policy. It is absolutely absurd to make the affairs of another nation x1,000 miles away in another hemisphere a priority above our own. Turn off Glenn Beck and tune in to reality.


 +infinity

----------


## Dr.3D

> Notice the way he uses the word "the" here, as if all Palestinians aren't unique individuals, kind of like how some people like to talk about "the Jews."


I'm a little confused here.

Would those people just say "Jews are planning to attack?"   Seems more proper to say "The Jews are planning to attack."

During WWII, would the people of the United States have said "The Japanese are planning to attack."  Or would they have said "Japanese are planning to attack."?

----------


## erowe1

> I'm a little confused here.
> 
> Would those people just say "Jews are planning to attack?"   Seems more proper to say "The Jews are planning to attack."
> 
> During WWII, would the people of the United States have said "The Japanese are planning to attack."  Or would they have said "Japanese are planning to attack."?


I have trouble seeing how it would be more proper to say "the Jews" in your first example if it were really just some Jews and not all Jews. I can't see any explanation for saying it with "the" that's not anti-semitic.

I also wouldn't take the typical American mindset of the 1940s as an example of how not to be racially prejudiced. The reason they managed to justify in their minds the idea of putting innocent Japanese Americans in internment camps was that they thought they were at war with "the Japanese" instead of just Japan.

----------


## eproxy100

> No we do not. We need a president who supports the United States of America. What you said there is solely a talking point of the far religious right and it is a cancer upon American politics and foreign policy. It is absolutely absurd to make the affairs of another nation x1,000 miles away in another hemisphere a priority above our own. Turn off Glenn Beck and tune in to reality.


I think it has more to do with christian zionism than Glenn Beck. It's pretty hard to change people's mind when it's a religious belief.

----------


## TheDrakeMan

I think Israel may be better off under the European sphere of influence than America. Whether we like it or not, America's _empire_ is certainly not going to last forever, due to our poor economic decisions at home. Israel learning not to be reliant on America could be the greatest thing to happen to it.

----------


## Chieppa1

> Notice the way he uses the word "the" here, as if all Palestinians aren't unique individuals, kind of like how some people like to talk about "the Jews."





> No we do not. We need a president who supports the United States of America. What you said there is solely a talking point of the far religious right and it is a cancer upon American politics and foreign policy. It is absolutely absurd to make the affairs of another nation x1,000 miles away in another hemisphere a priority above our own. Turn off Glenn Beck and tune in to reality.


+rep for logic.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> I think Israel may be better off under the European sphere of influence than America. Whether we like it or not, America's _empire_ is certainly not going to last forever, due to our poor economic decisions at home. Israel learning not to be reliant on America could be the greatest thing to happen to it.


 That's not a bad idea.  The Europeans are already well accustomed to welfare statism, and the Israeli regime would fit in perfectly.

----------


## cindy25

friend does not mean dependency

----------


## ddavis

> Where did you hear this?


It is now a fact and not conjecture.  The IDF responded and the Palestinians backed off.

----------


## ddavis

> That's not a bad idea.  The Europeans are already well accustomed to welfare statism, and the Israeli regime would fit in perfectly.


Israel is the only democracy in the the Middle East.  If the Arabs had their way and they could exterminate all of the Jews, the vacuum would be filled with a less prosperous, ignorant, uneducated, backward population characterized by the rest of the Middle East.

----------


## erowe1

> Israel is the only democracy in the the Middle East.  If the Arabs had their way and they could exterminate all of the Jews, the vacuum would be filled with a less prosperous, ignorant, uneducated, backward population characterized by the rest of the Middle East.


Actually it's not. The regime in DC made Iraq into one too recently, much to the dismay of every Christian living there. Remember?

Is democracy supposed to be a good thing or something?

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Actually it's not. *The regime in DC made Iraq into one too recently*, much to the dismay of every Christian living there. Remember?
> 
> Is democracy supposed to be a good thing or something?


 Afghanistan too, IIRC.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Israel is the only democracy in the the Middle East.  If the Arabs had their way and they could exterminate all of the Jews, the vacuum would be filled with a less prosperous, ignorant, uneducated, backward population characterized by the rest of the Middle East.


 And the Israelis would wipe out the Arabs/Persians if they could.  This conflict has been going on for thousands of years.  Plenty of ignorance and irrational hatred on both sides.  I agree with RP that we in the West should stay out of their silly feud.

----------


## ddavis

> And the Israelis would wipe out the Arabs/Persians if they could.  This conflict has been going on for thousands of years.  Plenty of ignorance and irrational hatred on both sides.  I agree with RP that we in the West should stay out of their silly feud.


Absolutely false.  The Israelis would not wipe out the Arabs/Persians given the choice.  That is what seperates them.  As soon as we pull out of Iran and Afghanistan, they will fall.  There will be more killing than those countries saw while the US was there.

----------


## erowe1

> Afghanistan too, IIRC.


Yeah, I'm not sure if that's still the Middle East. It probably depends who you ask.

----------


## YumYum

> Absolutely false.  The Israelis would not wipe out the Arabs/Persians given the choice.  That is what seperates them.  As soon as we pull out of Iran and Afghanistan, they will fall.  There will be more killing than those countries saw while the US was there.


The Israeli government would wipe out the Palestinians if they could. Does that count? Also, Israel's game is stealing land. They took Golan Heights because the Syrians had an advantage from a high position to attack Israel. Now, the Israelis are claiming that they cannot return the land they stole in the West Bank because it would allow the Palestinians to fire rockets at Israelis from a much shorter distance. Steal land, then claim it is done in the name of "national security". Cram all the Palestinians into Gaza and then poison them. If the Israelis can treat their neighbors this way, what would prevent them from treating anybody and everybody this way if it is to their benefit?

----------


## LibertyEagle

> My priorities for selecting a candidate:  Cut the debt, repeal Obama care and support of Israel.  This website has Ron Paul's name on it.  I can not support a candidate that allows this antisemitic dribble.  Who are our friends in the Middle East? Hezbollah, Hamas or maybe the muslim brotherhood?  Israel is our only friend in the Middle East and the only one that deserves our help and compassion.


Mr. Davis, Ron Paul has nothing to do with this website, and never has.  It was started by a grassroots supporter before the last election.  

Ron Paul's message of peace, liberty and prosperity attracts supporters from across the political spectrum and I can assure you that forum members often do not agree on a variety of things.  

Dr. Paul's stance is that the U.S. government should not be giving foreign aid to *any* country.  This is in keeping with the stance of our Founding Fathers.  Read George Washington's Farewell Address where he warned us not to entangle alliances.  

Are you sure that our current foreign policy is beneficial to Israel?  Think about it for a minute, the way it stands now, the U.S. government gives aid to Israel and also to Israel's enemies.  To keep getting that aid, Israel has to ask our government's permission before they defend themselves.  How is this in Israel's best interest?

Dr. Paul wants Israel to be able to act in their own self-interest and make those decisions for themselves what they need to do to defend her.  In addition, nothing is stopping any and all U.S. citizens, such as yourself, to send your own money to Israel.

If you stop and think about it sir, I think you will see that Dr. Paul is much more of a friend to Israel than those who have and are arming her enemies and forcing Israel to ask permission before they defend their own country.

In the end, the United States and Israel are two separate countries and the U.S. government's duty has to be to the United States.  

Note:  You may want to visit www.campaignforliberty.com.  That is an organization founded by Ron Paul.

----------


## ddavis

> The Israeli government would wipe out the Palestinians if they could. Does that count? Also, Israel's game is stealing land. They took Golan Heights because the Syrians had an advantage from a high position to attack Israel. Now, the Israelis are claiming that they cannot return the land they stole in the West Bank because it would allow the Palestinians to fire rockets at Israelis from a much shorter distance. Steal land, then claim it is done in the name of "national security". Cram all the Palestinians into Gaza and then poison them. If the Israelis can treat their neighbors this way, what would prevent them from treating anybody and everybody this way if it is to their benefit?


Again, Israel would not wipe out Palestinians.  They didn't steal the land.  They won it after they were attacked by the Syrians.  "Cram them into to Gaza and Poison them"  Give me a break.  The Palistinians don't want peace.  They get back what they earn.

----------


## ddavis

LibertyEagle, I'm in agreement with you.

----------


## lester1/2jr

> Israel is the only democracy in the the Middle East


have you been folowing the news lately?

and what difference does Israel being a democracy make? Apartheid South Africa was ahead of most of it's neighbors in many ways and more "Western". It's a property issue. The arabs who had been there for the preceding 18 CENTURIES never agreed to zionism.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

+rep @ LE.

----------


## FrankRep

Israeli Zionists and economists agree with Rand Paul and Ron Paul that US Foreign Aid is bad for Israel.

*Israeli Economists Agree with Rand Paul: End Foreign Aid*


Daniel Sayani | The New American 
07 February 2011


*Related Articles:*

*Senator Rand Paul: End All Foreign Aid*
Tea Party favorite and freshman Kentucky Senator Rand Paul may have crossed a third rail of politics by suggesting the federal government zero out all foreign aid, even to Israel, America's largest foreign aid recipient over the past 30 years.
*Senator Rand Paul Defends Israel*
Senator Rand Paul's stance against foreign aid for countries including Israel has raised controversy. However, this must be evaluated in the context of his broader pro-Israel policy.

----------


## FrankRep

*Ron Paul Counters Obama Policy on Israel, Middle East*


20 May 2011 | Congressman Ron Paul issued a blistering critique of President Obama's recent proposal to have Israel surrender its territory to pre-1967 borders, create a Palestinian state, and aid Egypt as well as Obama's implicit threat to attack Syria.

----------


## moderate libertarian

Ron Paul says we should not take sides in Israel's wars and we get blowback for supporting Israel. He goes on to say Palestinians are living in concentration camp like conditions and mostly unarmed facing a strong Israeli military.  Ron Paul says American weapons and funds are being used in Israel's killing of Palestinians and US has moral responsibility.







If that is supporting Israel, whole America should be Israel's supporter.

----------


## thetruthhurtsthefed

> I think it's kind of like saying "I have a lot of gay friends..." before making a joke bashing gays. It may or may not be true, but you gotta cover your ass (strange unintended pun) in today's world.


exactly!!!!  Nice analogy!

----------


## FrankRep

Bump.

I just had a Mitt Romney supporter tell me that Ron Paul is anti-Israel.

----------


## robert9712000

Its odd to me that most think Israel uses the Us as there attack dog,when i see it as the opposite.To me our foreign aid and military support sets up Israel to become beholden to America's intrests. I would rather Israel be able to govern as they see fit and not have the Us constantly try to dictate how they will run there affairs.

I also see America putting them in a bad spot to where we mess around in the middle east to protect our interests in there oil,which then entices the middle east to retaliate against whatever represents American influence and that would be most easily seen as Israel

----------


## axioms-and-ideas

Thank you for sharing this.  
I regard human relationships as fractals ... common denominators whether differences are on an individual or national scale.

Israel vs Palestine :: two drunk college guys getting heated.  The more they drink the more their threats come closer to actual violence.

The United States has a choice :: drink up and pick a side.  Close the fist and punch whoever you stand against, irregardless of the brawl that would ensue.
--or-- keep the palms open and stand between them "Guys, c'mon.  Go drink some beer, have a good time tonight, we'll work out the differences in the morning.  You can go fight on the front lawn if you need to, but if anyone pulls a knife or somethin' I'm kickin' BOTH your asses."

More or less

----------


## getch36

Yeah great friends,USS Liberty,Jonathan pollard and they probably knew 9/11 would happen without telling us.I will take Hamas,Hezbolla and the Muslim Brotherhood any day.Just because the T.V. says they are our best allies doesn't mean it's true.

----------


## getch36

Your a wonderful Human Being.If you say anything slightly negative about Israel you are a Rabid Anti-Semite according to you.But It's fine for you to spew hatred about people you know nothing about.Less prosperous?maybe because they don't suck on the teet of another country.As far as ignorant,uneducated and backward I find those traits more palatable then belligerent,manipulative and predatory.Yeah,Anti- Semite I know

----------


## FrankRep

> Yeah great friends,USS Liberty,Jonathan pollard and they probably knew 9/11 would happen without telling us.I will take Hamas,Hezbolla and the Muslim Brotherhood any day.Just because the T.V. says they are our best allies doesn't mean it's true.


Ron Paul said it, not I. Just remember that.

----------


## pcosmar

> Bump.
> 
> I just had a Mitt Romney supporter tell me that Ron Paul is anti-Israel.


I had people tell me Romney was the only Christian in the race. (when Ron was still in the race)

People can be really stupid.

----------


## gwax23

I dont understand this ridiculous Israel bashing. We should be neutral and unsolved. Attacking Israel and supporting its enemies isnt better than the current situation. We need to be impartial, Israel is a sovereign state they should do as they please.

----------


## furface

> Israel is a sovereign state they should do as they please.


Fine, let them do it with their own money and let's drop all the foreign aid. 

And whether "Israel" is a state at all is something that we have no business deciding.  It's a regional issue that should be resolved by Palestinians and their neighbors.  I doubt the vast majority of the world would shed a tear if "Israel" went back to being what it was before 1948.

----------


## gwax23

> Fine, let them do it with their own money and let's drop all the foreign aid. 
> 
> And whether "Israel" is a state at all is something that we have no business deciding.  It's a regional issue that should be resolved by Palestinians and their neighbors.  I doubt the vast majority of the world would shed a tear if "Israel" went back to being what it was before 1948.


Again im not for any aid or support to Israel but simply doing the opposite by attacking it, supporting its enemies, delegitimizing it etc. is not better and is contrary to libertarian foreign policy principles.

----------


## furface

> Again im not for any aid or support to Israel but simply doing the opposite by attacking it, supporting its enemies, delegitimizing it etc. is not better and is contrary to libertarian foreign policy principles.


Zionism correlates almost 100% with a breakdown of logic & reason.  I'll demonstrate that here.  The opposite of giving aid to Israel is to not give aid to Israel.  Discussing Israel's legitimacy is entirely within the scope of libertarian principles.  The legitimacy of all governments is suspect within libertarian frameworks.  

You're also implying that somehow not supporting Israel supports its enemies.  How can bringing up arguments against Israel's legitimacy support Israel's enemies unless those arguments are correct? Discussing and bringing up arguments supports nothing unless such arguments are correct.  Again, irrational Zionists are terrified of free conversations.

----------


## FrankRep

> + Rep.


Thank you.

----------


## ClydeCoulter

$#@!, FrankRep...you just can't stand it....  (that +rep was from 2011, any excuse to start another fight)

----------


## kcchiefs6465

> $#@!, FrankRep...you just can't stand it....  (that +rep was from 2011, any excuse to start another fight)


Hell, at least it's not another Glenn Beck mirage.

Israel should have no place in lobbying our Congress to do their bidding. We should have no place in dictating to Israel how they handle their disputes.

It's really that simple. Oh, and we definitely shouldn't be giving them billions a year or anyone else foreign aid for that matter. What was is, something like $3,000 for every man, woman, and child in Israel? [I can't remember the specific number, but it was around there]

An attack on Israel is not an attack on the United States. An attack on Israel is an attack on Israel. No matter who the hell thinks they are a chosen people.

----------


## Brett85

> Oh, come on, you make it sound like that is the predominant theme.  Most here are noninterventionist, across the board, and consider Israel an ally, but also a focus for trouble for us, since we tend to do idiotic things around that relationship.  A couple or few, max are 'anti-Israel'.


No, it's been confirmed that 62% here are anti Israel.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...n-Israel/page7

----------


## ClydeCoulter

> Hell, at least it's not another Glenn Beck mirage.
> 
> Israel should have no place in lobbying our Congress to do their bidding. We should have no place in dictating to Israel how they handle their disputes.
> 
> It's really that simple. Oh, and we definitely shouldn't be giving them billions a year or anyone else foreign aid for that matter. What was is, something like $3,000 for every man, woman, and child in Israel? [I can't remember the specific number, but it was around there]
> 
> An attack on Israel is not an attack on the United States. An attack on Israel is an attack on Israel. No matter who the hell thinks they are a chosen people.


The problem as I see it, is that we have already armed Israel "to the teeth", maybe we should be somewhat responsible about that.  It's all fair and well for Israeli supporters to want to "stay out of their business" after giving them the upper hand.

And, I understand why *many* Christians support Israel.  They don't understand that the state of Israel has nothing whatsoever to do with the Israel mentioned in the bible, reguardless of whether any of that in the bible is true or not.

_edit: Oh, and Traditional Conservative, I didn't vote in that poll and there are probably others that didn't._

----------


## sailingaway

> No, it's been confirmed that 62% here are anti Israel.
> 
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...n-Israel/page7


Those polls are such a tiny percent of the people who come here they are completely invalid. Self selected polls are not statistically reliable, by definition.

And 'anti' itself is such a vague word.  I have nothing against Israel, but I get pretty irritated when people think we need to treat them like the 51st state -- or the first state.  I think we get in a lot of wars supported by the public only because Israel is involved.  I am not against them, but I am starting to get a sort of impatient feeling about them, like if the friend you go out with habitually gets you pulled into trouble with them.

Having said that, they are an 'ally' and I recognize that.

I just don't think they should be the cornerstone of our foreign policy they seem to be, to our detriment.

----------


## Brett85

> Those polls are such a tiny percent of the people who come here they are completely invalid. Self selected polls are not statistically reliable, by definition.
> 
> And 'anti' itself is such a vague word.  I have nothing against Israel, but I get pretty irritated when people think we need to treat them like the 51st state -- or the first state.  I think we get in a lot of wars supported by the public only because Israel is involved.  I am not against them, but I am starting to get a sort of impatient feeling about them, like if the friend you go out with habitually gets you pulled into trouble with them.
> 
> Having said that, they are an 'ally' and I recognize that.
> 
> I just don't think they should be the cornerstone of our foreign policy they seem to be, to our detriment.


I still haven't seen any evidence that the Iraq War ever had anything to do with Israel.  I don't recall the Israeli government ever pushing us to start that war.  I certainly don't know what war Israel has pushed us into in the past.  They may be trying to push us into a war with Iran, but that hasn't happened yet.

----------


## sailingaway

> I still haven't seen any evidence that the Iraq War ever had anything to do with Israel.  I don't recall the Israeli government ever pushing us to start that war.  I certainly don't know what war Israel has pushed us into in the past.  They may be trying to push us into a war with Iran, but that hasn't happened yet.


I remember stuff before Iraq, and they didn't send soldiers because it would be polarizing.... but I'm not saying everything we do is about them. I am saying neocons USE the RHETORIC of 'for Isreal' to justify what they do, and it gets results amongst evangelicals.

----------


## FrankRep

The media will have a field day when they see a growing number of Ron Paul supporters becoming anti-Israel and with some even crossing into anti-semitism.




> He's a Zionist ass kisser. That's why he's voting against Hagel.

----------


## ClydeCoulter

> The media will have a field day when they see a growing number of Ron Paul supporters becoming anti-Israel and with some even crossing into anti-semitism.


Define "anti-semitism" (as you are using it).

----------


## sailingaway

> The media will have a field day when they see a growing number of Ron Paul supporters becoming anti-Israel and with some even crossing into anti-semitism.


If that fake image concerns you why do you keep picking fights about this?

----------


## kcchiefs6465

> The problem as I see it, is that we have already armed Israel "to the teeth", *maybe we should be somewhat responsible about that.*  It's all fair and well for Israeli supporters to want to "stay out of their business" after giving them the upper hand.


Very true. Never forget, 'they' hate us for our freedom.





> And, I understand why *many* Christians support Israel.  They don't understand that the state of Israel has nothing whatsoever to do with the Israel mentioned in the bible, reguardless of whether any of that in the bible is true or not.


This annoys me to no end. Supposed christians all the more willing to send someone else's kids to die for a country of supposed 'chosen people.' That's the thing that gets me. Chickenhawks have no problem drumming up support for these illegal wars. 

As sailingaway said in one of her posts I am getting impatient. I have nothing against the people of Israel, as a collective, but this idea that they should have our unwaivering support is $#@!ing sickening. Even members here seem to feel we are justified or even obligated to defend Israel when they do the kind of $#@! they do. I'm getting tired of this. And I am not of the politically correct, fear of being branded, republicrats. Soon it will be simply 'f*** Israel' whenever the topic arrives. 

Sad day on RPF when people are unaware of the war crimes that that State has committed, the problems they have created, and the $#@! they constantly stir.

----------


## libertyjam

"Keep your friends close, Keep your enemies even closer"

----------


## FrankRep

> If that fake image concerns you why do you keep picking fights about this?


Someone needs to defend Israel, especially since Ron Paul is supportive of Israel.

----------


## sailingaway

> Someone needs to defend Israel, especially since Ron Paul is supportive of Israel.


You aren't defending it, you are setting it up as a punching bag, the way you bait people.

----------


## Brett85

> Even members here seem to feel we are justified or even obligated to defend Israel when they do the kind of $#@! they do.


Or they just think that it's none of our business, since part of non interventionism is staying out of the internal affairs of other nations.

----------


## kcchiefs6465

> Someone needs to defend Israel, especially since Ron Paul is supportive of Israel.


Supportive of them leaving our politics the $#@! alone, and supportive in the sense of them being independent. Spin it how you wish, Israel would be better off because of this.

I am supportive of Israel as well. [them being independent]

----------


## kcchiefs6465

> Or they just think that it's none of our business, since part of non interventionism is staying out of the internal affairs of other nations.





> Traditional Conservative- Kind of like the holocaust?


I still fail to understand how one atrocity being committed against a certain group of people is relevant to their government committing atrocities against another group of people. Or rather, how that excuses it, as you defensively seemed to suggest.

----------


## Brett85

> I still fail to understand how one atrocity being committed against a certain group of people is relevant to their government committing atrocities against another group of people. Or rather, how that excuses it, as you defensively seemed to suggest.


I don't accept the premise of your statement that Israel has committed "atrocities" against anyone.

----------


## Havax

I've talked to several necons lately who hated Ron. Lots of their number #1 issue (crazy as it is) is defending Israel. They also really like Rand and are split between him and Rubio. If Rand goes purist on not supporting Israel (even if it's just campaign talk to get elected) I'll tell you right now he's dead in the water trying for the nomination. Those are the facts. Accept it for now, or lose our only hope at every getting a libertarian(-leaning) in the white house.

----------


## kcchiefs6465

> I don't accept the premise of your statement that Israel has committed "atrocities" against anyone.


Is that a request for pictures of blown in half Palestinian children? Kids with legs blown off? They are only a few clicks away. Now I have a physically sick feeling from seeing a child with their intestines spread across the road. [literally] And that was just with a two second search. The pictures and video I've seen over the years is the kind of $#@! you don't forget.

Israel bombing journalist towers? Schools, mosques? 

ETA: Meh, I'll censor myself.

----------


## FrankRep

> Is that a request for pictures of blown in half Palestinian children? Kids with legs blown off?


What about the Palestinian terrorists strapping bombs to themselves and running into busy parts of Israel?

----------


## Brett85

> Is that a request for pictures of blown in half Palestinian children? Kids with legs blown off? They are only a few clicks away. Now I have a physically sick feeling from seeing a child with their intestines spread across the road. [literally] And that was just with a two second search. The pictures and video I've seen over the years is the kind of $#@! you don't forget.
> 
> Israel bombing journalist towers? Schools, mosques? 
> 
> ETA: Meh, I'll censor myself.


And how many of the times that Israel used military action were simply a response to rockets being launched into Israel?

----------


## kcchiefs6465

> What about the Palestinian terrorists strapping bombs to themselves and running into busy parts of Israel?


That must be one hell of a hopeless feeling, huh? What could ever drive a man to do such a thing I've never known, personally. Then again, I didn't grow up in occupied land.

[Blowback.]

----------


## kcchiefs6465

> And how many of the times that Israel used military action were simply a response to rockets being launched into Israel?


The difference between rockets and missiles is noticeable.

----------


## TomtheTinker

> Israel is a parasitic, terrorist conglomerate that celebrates when the US is attacked:
> 
> http://www.haaretz.com/news/report-n...srael-1.244044



I guess you could say that about most nations including our own.

----------


## FrankRep

> That must be one hell of a hopeless feeling, huh? What could ever drive a man to do such a thing I've never known, personally. Then again, I didn't grow up in occupied land.
> 
> [Blowback.]


Blowback works both ways.

----------


## kcchiefs6465

> Blowback works both ways.


Why aren't Israelis suicide bombing Palestine?


'You call it warfare but your wars aren't fair,
if they were you'd see suicide bombers at arms fairs'

----------


## COpatriot

> I don't accept the premise of your statement that Israel has committed "atrocities" against anyone.


 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_shelling_of_Qana

I would also post the link to the Liberty bombing but that's already been discussed here ad nauseam.

Also, how many times is Frank going to bump this thread? Isn't there a forum rule that limits the number of times a user can do this?

----------


## bolil

> Blowback works both ways.


Sure does.  Now, tell me, do you think more blow back will accompany a bulldozed running over protesters and houses, a siege, and systemic land theft or glorified BOTTLErockets?

----------


## Natural Citizen

I hate when this crap gets politicized the way that it does. I'd surmise that anyone here who has served would agree with that.

In our current state of geopolitical memes though we're only sending our own poor youth abroad to kill other poor people. Were sending our faithful to kill others for little less than the notion of whose God is bigger than the other man or in the name of some sin of sort. Or whichever the people love them for at the moment. This is a perpetual fight that nobody can win except the $#@!s building their stock portfolios off of the business of the bloodshed of our children.

I'd hope that citizens aren't influenced by purely political positions and other romper room shenanigans and speak up with their position on the human aspects of these insane war games if they wish to engage in the discussion. You're sleeping giants. Don't forget that.

----------


## TokenLibertarianGuy

Israel is *not* a friend to anyone.

----------


## FrankRep

Just a reminder.

*Ron Paul Tells Newsmax: I Support Israel*
December 07, 2011

----------


## phill4paul

Just a further reminder.......

 " I look at Gaza like a concentration camp. "

http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/01/09...he-aggressors/

----------


## phill4paul

and further.........

----------


## FrankRep

> Just a further reminder.......
> 
>  " I look at Gaza like a concentration camp. "
> 
> http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/01/09...he-aggressors/


Israel beefed up security around Israel/Gaza Strip because of all the Palestinian suicide bombers.

The Palestinians are shooting themselves in the foot.

----------


## phill4paul

> Israel beefed up security around Israel/Gaza Strip because of all the Palestinian suicide bombers.
> 
> The Palestinians are shooting themselves in the foot.


  Those damned Jews in the Warsaw ghetto. There has GOT to be a solution.

----------


## PSYOP

Why bump such an old thread, Frank? Your obsession with Israel is well noted, now quit bringing it up.

----------


## Falcon63

$#@! Israel. I wouldn't be the least bit sad if they were blown right off of the map. All they do is cause problems. I do NOT want us to be their "friends".

----------


## FrankRep

> Why bump such an old thread, Frank? Your obsession with Israel is well noted, now quit bringing it up.


I have to remind people sometimes that Ron Paul and Rand Paul support Israel. 

No obsession. I hardly talk about Israel until someone on the forum decides to attack Israel and I remind them.

----------


## pcosmar

> I have to remind people sometimes that Ron Paul and Rand Paul support Israel.


I don't know that,, in fact I believe the man to be smarter than that.

I think that was just a statement of existing policy,, and not a personal opinion.

Israel is not our friend.. But it is protected State by existing policy.

----------


## FrankRep

> I don't know that,, in fact I believe the man to be smarter than that.


Read the original post of this thread. I keep bumping it for people like you.

----------


## pcosmar

> Read the original post of this thread. I keep bumping it for people like you.


I read it Frank. 
I also have heard Ron say it. 
I Believe it was said as a statement of present policy and not as Ron's personal feelings.

The present political policy and official position is that Israel is our friend.

They are not,, and never have been, But the official position is that they are.

I do not really believe that Ron is nearly that stupid.  He was simply repeating the official position.

He has been Opposed to entangling alliances  his whole career. 
He is also a spiritual man and Christian Believer and knows that the Anti-Christ will Stand (and rule from) in Jerusalem.

Israel is NO Ones Friend.

----------


## enhanced_deficit

*Ron Paul says Israeli embargo of Gaza that is almost like a  concentartion camp is equivalent of an act of war and US is morally  responsible because we finance Israel's occupation of Palestinians. And  that it creates blowback economic/emotional drainage for US and  contributes to global instability.*


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTpJOVhIxWc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08gTWqWrI4M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb3vF6Vcjr0


 Insightful words on foreign policy. Perhaps straight talk like this is  the reason that neocons and  religious extremists/dogmatic rapture ready  fundies would never support his non-interventionist foreign policy.

*Question can be asked, would there have been 9/11 blowback and resulting economic/political/emotional collapse had US not  adoptd a mideast interventionist policy/funded occupation of Palestinian people?*

----------


## klamath

RP did not believe this but he tried to cater for votes. He was being a politician.

----------


## FrankRep

> RP did not believe this but he tried to cater for votes. He was being a politician.


Lets not start calling Ron Paul a liar.

----------


## Falcon63

> RP did not believe this but he tried to cater for votes. He was being a politician.



So, here's two possibilities:

1. He gave in to the pressure to win, in the process, becoming a liar.
2. He really does support Israel, which is bad in and of itself.

Don't get me wrong, I like Ron Paul, but he's wrong on some things.

----------


## Expatriate



----------


## enhanced_deficit

> Lets not start calling Ron Paul a liar.


Actually the title of this thread takes a statement out of context and is in fact more like a misrepresentation and thus a "lie".  Ron Paul wants US to be firends with foreign states including Israel and he also acknowledges that Israel is a close ally of US that causes various terrorism/economic blowbacks for US because US funds its occupation of Palestinians.  See/represent  totality of his view instead of quoting a single statement out of context.

Watch these vids to get full context of his views.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTpJOVhIxWc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08gTWqWrI4M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb3vF6Vcjr0

----------


## PSYOP

> Actually the title of this thread takes a statement out of context and is in fact more like a misrepresentation and thus a "lie".  Ron Paul wants US to be firends with foreign states including Israel and he also acknowledges that Israel is a close ally of US that causes various terrorism/economic blowbacks for US because US funds its occupation of Palestinians.  See/represent  totality of his view instead of quoting a single statement out of context.
> 
> Watch these vids to get full context of his views.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTpJOVhIxWc
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08gTWqWrI4M
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb3vF6Vcjr0


Don't even bother. Frank doesn't care about the facts, he loves seeing Americans go die for an illegal state and a terrorist one at that.

----------


## FrankRep

> Don't even bother. Frank doesn't care about the facts, he loves seeing Americans go die for an illegal state and a terrorist one at that.


I support non-interventionism.

----------


## erowe1

> Don't even bother. Frank doesn't care about the facts, he loves seeing Americans go die for an illegal state and a terrorist one at that.


"Illegal" meaning what?

----------


## klamath

> So, here's two possibilities:
> 
> 1. He gave in to the pressure to win, in the process, becoming a liar.
> 2. He really does support Israel, which is bad in and of itself.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I like Ron Paul, but he's wrong on some things.


I knew at the time what RP was doing however I didn't find it useful to getting him elected to "hold his feet to the fire" by calling him out for twisting his words to get votes..

----------


## pcosmar

> So, here's two possibilities:


You missed the third possibility that I had mentioned.
*That he was merely stating the official and accepted current Policy of the US.*

Not endorsing it. Not promoting it. Simply stating it.

His position is that we should not be involved at all. A position I agree with.

----------


## enhanced_deficit

> I support non-interventionism.


Do you support or oppose US aid to Israel/Egypt/Jordan etc ?

What do you think caused 9/11?

Do you believe there is a so called "pro Israel" lobby in the US that pushes US to an interventionist foreign policy for interests of a foreign state, buys off US politicians in a systemic way?

If US cut off all financial/military aid to Israel and other mideast dictarorship puppets tomorrow and really became non-inteventionist, for how long you think Israeli occupation of Palestinian people will last?

Thanks.

----------


## Carsten2012b

"The great rule of conduct for us, in regard to foreign nations, is, in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little politicial connection as possiable."
-George Washington

----------


## PSYOP

> "Illegal" meaning what?


God never gave the Jewish people the authorization to rebuild the temple  -- thus it is illegal to suggest that they (the Jews) can just march  back into the Holy Land thousands of years later and steal the land of  its long-held occupants (Palestinians) under the banner of a divine code  that does not exist. And let us not forget the second major problem  which is that the majority of the Jews that currently preside in Israel  are not blood-related to any of the 12 tribes of Dan -- but rather Jewish  converts of the Khazarian Empire which is present day Turkey. In  conclusion, not only was the land stolen under a false law, but the  people who say they have a divine right to the land aren't even the same people.

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## erowe1

> God never gave the Jewish people the authorization to rebuild the temple  -- thus it is illegal to suggest that they (the Jews) can just march  back into the Holy Land thousands of years later and steal the land of  its long-held occupants (Palestinians) under the banner of a divine code  that does not exist. And let us not forget the second major problem  which is that the majority of the Jews that currently preside in Israel  are not blood-related to any of the 12 tribes of Dan -- but rather Jewish  converts of the Khazarian Empire which is present day Turkey. In  conclusion, not only was the land stolen under a false law, but the  people who say they have a divine right to the land aren't even the same people.


How does any of that have anything to do with the legality of a state?

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## PSYOP

> How does any of that have anything to do with the legality of a state?


You didn't even read my post thus you are not worth my time.

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## erowe1

> You didn't even read my post thus you are not worth my time.


I did. I just don't see how it relates to the question I asked.

There are some 200 states in the world. Would you use similar arguments to the ones you gave to say whether they're legal or not?

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## PSYOP

> I did. I just don't see how it relates to the question I asked.
> 
> There are some 200 states in the world. Would you use similar arguments to the ones you gave to say whether they're legal or not?


Stop changing the subject -- I'm not talking about all the other states in the world. I am talking about Israel right now. And in regards to Israel, their only case for re-claiming the Holy Land is that God gave them the authorization to have it after the destruction of the temple which is a blatant falsehood.

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## erowe1

> Stop changing the subject -- I'm not talking about all the other states in the world. I am talking about Israel right now. And in regards to Israel, their only case for re-claiming the Holy Land is that God gave them the authorization to have it after the destruction of the temple which is a blatant falsehood.


I'm not changing the subject. I just don't follow your argument. First you said something about an illegal state. Now you're talking about reclaiming land. I don't see what those two things have to do with each other. And I still don't understand where you're coming from when you refer to an "illegal state." Are there other states out there that you consider "legal"? And if so, what does it take for one to be legal and another illegal?

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## enhanced_deficit

> I knew at the time what RP was doing however I didn't find it useful to getting him elected to "hold his feet to the fire" by calling him out for twisting his words to get votes..


I would think Ron Paul fans on this forum would know his stances on such an important issue as foreign policy/mideast?  You will notice that Press Release cited in OP is a series of statements with quotes and not a single full Ron Paul policy statement, it is possible Press Secretary saw some political benefit in such representation to hit Obama but this is edited view of Ron Paul's total view in this PR.  Everything quoted there has been stated many times by Ron Paul and all is true, but these are just slices of his total view that do not have Ron Paul's name at the bottom.  I think you have have been tricked by the out of context collection of statements and out of context title taken from an observational view.

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## PSYOP

> I'm not changing the subject. I just don't follow your argument. First you said something about an illegal state. Now you're talking about reclaiming land. I don't see what those two things have to do with each other. And I still don't understand where you're coming from when you refer to an "illegal state." Are there other states out there that you consider "legal"? And if so, what does it take for one to be legal and another illegal?


You haven't even read any of the divine texts have you? It shows. And it doesn't help that you constantly change the subject to something other then Israel. God never gave the Jewish people the authorization according to all known ancient history the divine right to take back the land of Israel after the destruction of the second temple in 70 A.D by the Romans. Yet, 1900 years later Jewish Khazarian converts (who are not any of the 12 tribes of Dan) show up and say they have a divine right to the land of Israel according to the law of God. Do you not see the contradictions here?

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## erowe1

> You haven't even read any of the divine texts have you? It shows. And it doesn't help that you constantly change the subject to something other then Israel. God never gave the Jewish people the authorization according to all known ancient history the divine right to take back the land of Israel after the destruction of the second temple in 70 A.D by the Romans. Yet, 1900 years later Jewish Khazarian converts (who are not any of the 12 tribes of Dan) show up and say they have a divine right to the land of Israel according to the law of God. Do you not see the contradictions here?


I don't get why you think I'm changing the subject. I want to know what you mean by "illegal state." Is there any such thing as a legal state? If so, what are the criteria for a state being legal.

Obviously this question requires you to say something more general about what you think about states than just something about Israel. That's not changing the subject. You used the phrase "illegal state." If that phrase means anything, other than just being a cypher for Israel, then you should be able to answer me.

I'm not sure what divine texts you're talking about. Apparently some that refer to 12 tribes of Dan. Whatever those are, no, I haven't read them.

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## PSYOP

> I don't get why you think I'm changing the subject. I want to know what you mean by "illegal state." Is there any such thing as a legal state? If so, what are the criteria for a state being legal.
> 
> Obviously this question requires you to say something more general about what you think about states than just something about Israel. That's not changing the subject. You used the phrase "illegal state." If that phrase means anything, other than just being a cypher for Israel, then you should be able to answer me.
> 
> I'm not sure what divine texts you're talking about. Apparently some that refer to 12 tribes of Dan. Whatever those are, no, I haven't read them.


You haven't even read into the old history of Israel yet you're trying to educate me about Israel. Got it.

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## erowe1

> You haven't even read into the old history of Israel yet you're trying to educate me about Israel. Got it.


I'm not trying to educate you. I'm trying to understand you.

At this point, I still don't know what you mean by "illegal state." Is there such a thing as a legal state?

You seem to want to treat the modern nation-state of Israel as something special that needs to be treated differently than all the other nation-states in the world. And it seems that your reasoning for that is based on some divine texts or something. But that's not where I'm coming from. I'd rather just apply the same rules to the modern nation-state of Israel that apply to all the other nation-states out there. I don't see why Israel's special.

But again, granted, if I read the divine texts that talk about 12 tribes of Dan, I might think differently. Who knows?

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## enhanced_deficit

Interesting side debate going on here. My two cents on modern legal standards are that since WWs/birth of UN & International Laws, geopolitical changes sanctioned by UN are seen as "legal" and others are not. Saddam's invasion of Kuwait was "not legal" and US invasion of Iraq was "legal".  Likewise Israel's ongoing occupation of Palestinians is illegal. 
In old times Might is Right was the law and Divine claims used to be used to occupy lands. But in modern tiimes, none of that is kosher at least on paper. In actual, Might is Right even today.

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## klamath

> I would think Ron Paul fans on this forum would know his stances on such an important issue as foreign policy/mideast?  You will notice that Press Release cited in OP is a series of statements with quotes and not a single full Ron Paul policy statement, it is possible Press Secretary saw some political benefit in such representation to hit Obama but this is edited view of Ron Paul's total view in this PR.  Everything quoted there has been stated many times by Ron Paul and all is true, but these are just slices of his total view that do not have Ron Paul's name at the bottom.  I think you have have been tricked by the out of context collection of statements and out of context title taken from an observational view.


 No I do NOT believe RP considers Israel our "close friend" as reinforced by his other statements on the internal affairs of Israel. He used  "close friend" intentionally to temper a strong belief in the GOP electorate that he was anti Israeli  which is a huge vote loser.

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## enhanced_deficit

> No I do NOT believe RP considers Israel our "close friend" as reinforced by his other statements on the internal affairs of Israel. He used  "close friend" intentionally to temper a strong belief in the GOP electorate that he was anti Israeli  which is a huge vote loser.


Well Israel is our "close friend" or why else would this tiny state  be getting tens of thousands of tax payers dollars per resident  despite economic crisis at home?   If you make an observation about the view of the policy makers and use that to make argument to the intended audience, it is not same as asccepting the view or lobbying for it.
  This is just a matter of perception, what GOP calls "anti Israel", I call "pro Israel".  GOP is not a "friend" of Israel, Democrats are called party of Israel and that is why 80% of US Jews vote democrats. Last GOP President sat so hard on them to uproot Gaza settlers that it sent there revered PM to paralyzing coma. Today there is expansion of settlements in West Bank while a democrat is in the White House. 

Ron Paul is a  friend of Israelis and Palestinians, he does not want to meddle in or send weapons/tax payers money to them and  wants to trade peacefully with foreign states.

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## PSYOP

> I'm not trying to educate you. I'm trying to understand you.
> 
> At this point, I still don't know what you mean by "illegal state." Is there such a thing as a legal state?
> 
> You seem to want to treat the modern nation-state of Israel as something special that needs to be treated differently than all the other nation-states in the world. And it seems that your reasoning for that is based on some divine texts or something. But that's not where I'm coming from. I'd rather just apply the same rules to the modern nation-state of Israel that apply to all the other nation-states out there. I don't see why Israel's special.
> 
> But again, granted, if I read the divine texts that talk about 12 tribes of Dan, I might think differently. Who knows?


It does need to be treated differently -- because billions of dollars in our money is being spent to fund a terrorist nation who is committing ethnic genocide against an entire people. Not to mention the fact that they are making more then just enemies with the Palestinians, but many other countries as well which by the laws of entangling alliances -- Israel's enemies inevitably become our enemies which could very well lead to the deaths of thousands of American boots on the ground putting aside the financial aspect. As far as your last comment is concerned, I would say, yeah, you would. And it does matter -- because if the state of Israel had not been created in the first place, many future lives could have been spared, both Jew and Palestinian, and believe it or not even the many Christians (you can relate to this) who are being slaughtered by the USRAELI funded mercenaries, essentially Al'Qaedi, in Syria.

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## erowe1

> It does need to be treated differently -- because billions of dollars in our money is being spent to fund a terrorist nation who is committing ethnic genocide against an entire people. Not to mention the fact that they are making more then just enemies with the Palestinians, but many other countries as well which by the laws of entangling alliances -- Israel's enemies inevitably become our enemies which could very well lead to the deaths of thousands of American boots on the ground putting aside the financial aspect. As far as your last comment is concerned, I would say, yeah, you would. And it does matter -- because if the state of Israel had not been created in the first place, many future lives could have been spared, both Jew and Palestinian, and believe it or not even the many Christians (you can relate to this) who are being slaughtered by the USRAELI funded mercenaries, essentially Al'Qaedi, in Syria.


OK.

That said, now can you tell what you meant by "illegal state"?

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## PSYOP

> OK.
> 
> That said, now can you tell what you meant by "illegal state"?


Why are you not reading any of my posts? I already told you four times that the Khazarian Jews have claimed that it is by divine right that they had the authorization post-world war 2 to create a Jewish homeland in Palestine in order to safeguard themselves from further persecution. An interesting story and understandable but nevertheless illegal in the sense that the Palestinians already owned that land so what gives for the United Nations to force Palestine to give up some of their land so that the so-called Jews could have their own state? Do you think we would like it if modern descendents of the Chorokees Nations went to the UN and forced the United States to give up some of the southern territories in order to accommodate their need for an ethnic homeland at the expense of it's present inhabitants?

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## erowe1

> Why are you not reading any of my posts?


I am. You still haven't said anything about what an illegal state is.

Even here:



> illegal in the sense that the Palestinians already owned that land so what gives for the United Nations to force Palestine to give up some of their land so that the so-called Jews could have their own state?


You switch between Palestinians owning land and Israel being a state. I don't see why those two things have anything to do with each other, or legality.

How about from the other direction? What would it take for any state to be legal?

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## PSYOP

> I am. You still haven't said anything about what an illegal state is.


Your one to two sentences of nothing every single post is meaningless. You've lost this argument and have proven time on and time again that you have not done any research what so ever into the Israeli-Palestinian conflict let alone biblical-era history.

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## erowe1

> Your one to two sentences of nothing every single post is meaningless. You've lost this argument and have proven time on and time again that you have not done any research what so ever into the Israeli-Palestinian conflict let alone biblical-era history.


I'm not even arguing. I'm just asking questions, trying to understand what you're saying.

I still don't know what the difference between legal and illegal states is.

On the research part, could you recommend any sources that tell me about the 12 tribes of Dan? I'll start with those.

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## PSYOP

> I'm not even arguing. I'm just asking questions, trying to understand what you're saying.
> 
> I still don't know what the difference *between legal and illegal states is.*


Of course you don't, you're an anarchist. I on the other hand am not.

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## erowe1

> Of course you don't, you're an anarchist. I on the other hand am not.


OK. That's fine. Since your opinion is what I'm trying to understand, could you tell me what the difference between a legal and an illegal state is, when you use those terms? I should still try to understand your position even if I disagree.

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## PSYOP

> OK. That's fine. Since your opinion is what I'm trying to understand, could you tell me what the difference between a legal and an illegal state is, when you use those terms? I should still try to understand your position even if I disagree.


Why should I even bother answering that question when we both already know our definition of a state and the role of government is completely on the opposite end of the spectrum? Look, I really don't want to continue this conversation because it'll end up pissing me off and then I'll say something I'll regret. We'll just agree to disagree.

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## erowe1

> Why should I even bother answering that question when we both already know our definition of a state and the role of government is completely on the opposite end of the spectrum?


I don't know that.

And it wouldn't matter to me even if it were true. I'm not interested in arguing. I just want to understand you.

Can you give any examples of legal states at all?

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## PSYOP

> I don't know that.
> 
> And it wouldn't matter to me even if it were true. I'm not interested in arguing. I just want to understand you.
> 
> Can you give any examples of legal states at all?


You know what, you're right. Israel is not an illegal state. It's perfectly legal. The poser Jews wanted some territory so they said "Let their be death to all the brown infidels" and then from the graves of their false ancestors -- the land of the chosen people of God rose from the ashes (Israel). Now that, ladies and gentlemen, is how a state is made!

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