# Lifestyles & Discussion > Peace Through Religion >  Who is Palestinian? Where is Palestine?? Who Named Palestine???

## ElyaKatz

BS"D

I'm back with another one. Warning. This is very long. Printed out, it is 5 pages. But to be fair to me, 1.5 pages are my pre-amble in order that those who wonder why I am, for now, a mostly one-issue poster, and have thus become suspicious of my motives (after all, there are trolls out there) will know what makes me tick. For now. Then I estimate about 1.5 pages are quotes or partial quotes from linked sources, to back my claims. That's 3 pages. That leaves 2 pages to cover roughly 2000 years of history. In light of that fact, I've think I've been brief. 

_A little pre-amble to what I hope will be an informative and helpful post, and maybe the beginning of an interesting discussion._ There are a lot of posts at this site which criticize Israel and Zionism, which in an of itself is not a problem. I am here to simply to present the other side of the story to my fellow Libertarian types. I say "Libertarian types" because I've gathered that I'm not totally on board with every single Libertarian view. But then neither are the neo-Nazis, anarchists, communists, and Storm Front members who post here. One example of where I suppose I differ is on the issue of abortion. I am staunchly pro-life, in the Jewish sense of the term, not in the Catholic or Protestant sense. Jews are a bit more liberal on this matter, with rabbinic approval in specific cases when the life of the mother is _truly_ at risk. The dangers considered are typically limited to physical danger, not psychological risk. Abortion is rarely approved to observant Jews by their rabbis, who much prefer giving life to the child and finding other solutions to a given dilemma, such as adoption. Having said that, I think the matter should return to the states, where it belongs. 

I have not looked deeply into the Libertarian Party Platform. I mostly guessed myself to lean towards Libertarian views because I respect Dr. Paul and have followed him during his presidential campaign, and had hoped to vote for him. I've studied how this country is supposed to operate according to the original founders' intentions more than I've studied the Libertarian Party Platform. Maybe sometime.

So, I have no hidden agenda. I am simply attempting to tilt the scales, to bring some balance to this forum on the subject of Israel. I am active here on this topic because I would really be sad to see any Ron Paul forums marginalized by groups who claim to be interested in the constitutional integrity of America, while under cover of various Libertarian values are mainly interested in vilifying Israel. How can one tell whether the issue of foreign aid or other constitutional issues are the concern of a given member, or whether disparaging Israel is their agenda? Well, do they focus almost exclusively on Israel, while ignoring all the other waste that our government is guilty of, all the rest of the foreign aid not only unconstitutional, but doesn't even have the mitigating factor of providing some benefits to Americans (such as jobs, R&D etc)? 

When the given member does post items that are negative about Israel, Zionism or Jews, Judaism, a given rabbi etc. do they sound fair-minded and balanced, or spiteful? Do they ever express a concern for the side they typically find themselves criticizing? If so, their consistent one-sided views are not unfair necessarily, but the are biased. Bias if fine. In fact, it's often unavoidable. It is impossible for most people born into or raised in a given ethnic, religious or other closely affiliated group to not care very deeply for the members of that group. People develop loyalties and that's a good part of being human. Do they sound interested in peace, or interested in simply destroying one side or the other? Or are they simply convinced that all things bad emanate from all things Jewish and/or Zionist. A favorite strategy of today's antisemites is to claim they are not antisemitic, but only anti-Israel or anti-Zionist. This is why Jews are leery of someone who seems to have an unbalanced, excessively negative view of either Zionism or Israel, or who is obsessively focused on such issues as whether the Holocaust happened or whether Israel or Zionism is the root of America's problems. Jews who are sympathetic to the plight of Israel can detect the difference between friendly criticism and fault-finding. It's not difficult. Sometimes though, a person may initially come across as vilifying to Israel etc. when in fact, they are merely uninformed or simply not that interested. This is where thinking the best for as long as possible plays in. Very, very important. 

One must remember, there are many, many shades of Zionism, some of which really are a big problem for Jews and gentiles. Socialist Zionists, in my book, are a problem for a lot of reasons, even if well-intentioned, and most are. Painting with a broad brush is a red flag. I am careful to mention radical Islam, or political Islam, and I am also very concerned about the victimized Arabs in Gaza, Lebanon. I just don't happen to blame Israel for all their woes. If I fail to make the distinction between radical/political Islam and moderate Islam, please fee free to PM me a notice of such with a link, and I will correct it. 

I am also relieved to hear from folks who have told me that I need to keep on keeping on. So, some of my posts have a readership, and I hope to continue encouraging those readers.. My suspicions are, most of the folks at this important site would like to see more posts that present the other side, the Israeli side of things. Most Americans are the salt of the earth, good, honest hard-working, G-d fearing people who, while they would love to see the carnage in the Middle East stop, simply have other priorities. Understandably. They are not Israelis, they are Americans. They're also not Gazans, or Lebanese, or Syrians or Egyptians or Iranians. They are Americans. Most people understand very well what is going on, and have sympathy for all the suffering of the Middle East, both Arab and Jew (and Iranian), and have no bone to pick with any side, but would like to see all foreign aid stop. That is a proper viewpoint because that is the constitutional view of America, and it reflects much more closely Dr. Paul's views, at least from what I've studied of his writings, speeches etc. 

_Now to the topic of this thread. And I think I will participate more in this thread, if honest questions are asked. I might ignore those who don't seem interested in a constructive discussion. I don't have time to rehash old issues that I've covered time and time again on other posts, or to address ad hominems, which are just plain boring.
_
There are a lot of posts here which present the "Palestinian" viewpoint. Why do I put the term "Palestinian" in quotes? Not because I minimize the genuine needs of the folks who now identify themselves as Palestinians to the world, but because until 1948 this term was never used to identify the Arabs (another complex issue) of the region I refer to as Eretz Israel. The Arabs were simply called Arabs. While it is true that most of these people are actually Arabic speaking, many are not, strictly speaking, actually of Arab descent. Besides the many nationalities who migrated in and out of Eretz Israel for hundreds of years as temporary jobs became available and then disappeared, some people who are researching the subject now claim that up to 85% of the people who practice Islam and speak Arabic in Eretz Israel may be descended from families who were forcibly converted to Islam from either Judaism or Christianity several generations ago, by the Turks and other Islamic conquerors of the region. 

So, who are/were the Palestinians?? Mixed into the identification of the people called "Palestinians" is the inevitable question,_"Where is Palestine??"_

Prior to the re-creation of the State of Israel, the term "Palestinian" was used to refer to the Jewish residents of the region. After the re-constitution of the nation of Israel, this term simply fell into disuse as the Jews of the region began to refer to themselves as Israelis. The term "Palestinian" was resurrected by the PLO in 1968 (?) or sometime thereabouts, in order to create a new people for propaganda purposes. This fact is openly admitted by various members of the PLO and other members of the Arab community. Not that the individuals and their descendants who are referred to nowadays as "Palestinians" didn't and don't exist. The Arabs of the region simply thought of themselves as Arabs, or Jordanians, or Egyptians or Syrians, not as "Palestinians". The following is a direct quote by Mr. Zahir Muhsein, then executive committee member of the PLO, in a 1977 *interview by the Dutch newspaper "Trouw"*. The quote can be found all over the web. 

*‘The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.

‘For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”*

How do the Jordanians view "Palestine"?

*“Palestine and Jordan are one…

‘Prince Hassan of the Jordanian National Assembly on February 2, 1970: “Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is only one land, with one history and one and the same fate”.

‘Abdul Hamid Sharif, Prime Minister of Jordan in 1980: “The Palestinians and Jordanians do not belong to different nationalities. They hold the same Jordanian passports, are Arabs and have the same Jordanian culture.”
*
‘King Hussein in 1981: *“The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan.’*

And here’s what a few Arab-Americans have to say:

Distinguished Arab-American Princeton University historian Philip Hitti *testified before the Anglo-American Committee**, ‘There is no such thing as ‘Palestine’ in history.’*

*Palestinian People Do Not Exist* by Joseph Farah (an American patriot of Lebanese descent)

Excerpt: 

*"A provocative headline? It's more than that. It's the truth.

Truth does not change. Truth is truth. If something was true 50 years ago, 40 years ago, 30 years ago, it is still true today.

And the truth is that only 30 years ago, there was very little confusion on this issue of Palestine.

You might remember the late Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir making the bold political statement: "There is no such thing as a Palestinian people."

The statement has been a source of ridicule and derision by Arab propagandists ever since. They love to talk about Golda Meir's "racism." They love to suggest she was in historical denial. They love to say her statement is patently false – an intentional lie, a strategic deception.

What they don't like to talk about, however, are the very similar statements made by Yasser Arafat and his inner circle of political leadership years after Meir had told the truth – that there is no distinct Palestinian cultural or national identity."*

_Read more at the link provided in the title above._

Last question: Who named Palestine anyway? Answer: The Romans as a final act of political revenge after enslaving, expelling or murdering a large number of Jewish rebels. Another punishment for our chutzpah -- Jerusalem was leveled, renamed, a Temple was built to a Roman idol which you can read about but I will not name, and a brand new name was given to Eretz Israel --- _Palestine_. 

I guess we really ticked them off. Well, beating us was really expensive.

Though most of our rulers and elite were driven off the land, enslaved or murdered, many in the peasant class, the "Am Ha'aretz" --the Jewish farmer -- remained to tend the place. Thus after the Roman conquest, there was still a Jewish majority in Eretz Israel. When the Persians came along and conquered the region, this Jewish majority continued. 

The Roman Empire is gone. The Jewish people are still around, having been in the unenviable position of being a stateless people, since the Arab conquest in 636 CE. This conqueror had a different plan than all other previous conquerors. The Muslim/Arab modus operandi is to displace the "infidels" via militant settlement, imposed sharia, and expropriation of land and labor, in the case of Eretz Israel, Jewish land and labor. That is when we began to become a landless class and eventually a minority in our own land. And some see the writings of Mark Twain as ample evidence that even then, most of the land was empty, with only urban centers populated, and then with a Jewish majority. Whether Twains' writings can be claimed as evidence, it is a fact that when the Muslims conquered the region, they committed the very crimes against us they falsely attribute to the re-constituted nation of Israel. 

Fast forward to the 19th and 20th century, and we see mass immigration of Jews back to their land. Since 1948, the Jewish people rule Eretz Israel. Well, I guess. I wonder when I see how America and the EU dictate to the Israeli government, even to the point of saying who should and should not be in the democratically elected Israeli government and where Jews can and can't add a porch. It seems to me we have replaced Pax Romana with Pax Americana. Not good, considering how things ended for Rome.

The Arab descendants of those who left Israel for various reasons should be rehabilitated. However, their plight is not the fault of Israel. But, Israel has offered to help and has been refused. The Arab world created this problem. Israel absorbed her refugees, now the Arabs, who have plenty of money and land, should absorb theirs.

Read: Arab Journalist: *Arab World Puts 'Refugees' Through Hell* 

Excerpt:
"The Arabs kept the Palestinians in refugee camps and made them into a people defeated both morally and materially. In contrast, the West welcomed the Jews and made them a leading [force] in science, arts, literature, economics and politics,” he wrote.

Following the publication of his articles, Shiryan was accused of promoting Zionist and pro-Western goals. He rejected the accusations, and turned the tables on his attackers, alleging that their mistreatment of refugees is “aimed at getting rid of the Palestinians altogether.”[/B]

Once again, the title is also the link to the rest of the article. [/I]

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## Flash

Repost from previous threads:




> 1) Jews are not of Israelite descent. No proof whatsoever that they are. In fact, it almost becomes laughable to hear anyone simply dismiss the Khazaric/Turkic theory. When I see modern Ashkenazi Jewry, I see people with the racial types of Alpine, Med, & Nordic. These are all Europid groups. Interestingly enough, Ashkenazis can all trace their ancestry back to the Caucasus where the Turkics and Kharazric tribes mixed with them. So, from anthropological evidence, we can conclude Askhenazis are NOT Arabids and thus NOT indigineous to the Middle East.
> 
> Onto more evidence, there are studies, mostly by the NY Times (which is known for faulty genetecist articles) which claims Jews have a 'Semitic' gene. Interestingly enough, there is no such thing as a 'Semitic gene,' infact the word 'Semite' refers to a linguistic group not a racial one. And even if Jews did have ancestry from the Middle East, it could be from the Indo-Aryans, Iraqis, Jordanians, etc... who says they are from the Israelites?


Many racial groups are 'made up." I could easily just as say, "Who are the Jews? They certainly aren't Israelites according to both Science & The Bible. Where did they come from?"




> That is when we began to become a landless class and eventually a minority in our own land.


Our land? Excuse me? Ashkenazis descend from Caucasus mountains are racial types are Alpine, Med, and Nordic. I am not going to stop repeating this until theres some serious Anthropological data that confirms Ashkenazis are actually Arabids (ie indigineous to the Levant). Although there are Meds native to the Levant, but most of them come from the Crusades and whatnot.

By the way, it's amusing for ADL to label White seperatist groups as hateful for protesting Non-Europid immigration, then the same people want Israel to remain Khazaric-pure. LOL. 




> am active here on this topic because I would really be sad to see any Ron Paul forums marginalized by groups who claim to be interested in the constitutional integrity of America, while under cover of various Libertarian values are mainly interested in vilifying Israel.


Like I said in your previos two threads, I wrote some very well thought out long posts and you chose to ignore them and repeat the same talking points. This is a forum dedicated to freedom, whenever someone posts an anti-zionist thread they are challenged. Yet you seem to not want to debate, if you post a Pro-Zionist thread that is based upon OBVIOUS anthropological lies, then I will challenge.




> "The Arabs kept the Palestinians in refugee camps and made them into a people defeated both morally and materially. In contrast, the West welcomed the Jews and made them a leading [force] in science, arts, literature, economics and politics,” he wrote.


That is because European/Western Civilization is the best form of civilization. As I have been saying on here for years.

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## ElyaKatz

delete, duplicate post

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## amy31416

I find those who deny the existence of Palestine and Palestinians just as abhorrent, if not moreso, than holocaust deniers.

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## ElyaKatz

> By the way, it's amusing for ADL to label White seperatist groups as hateful for protesting Non-Europid immigration, then the same people want Israel to remain Khazaric-pure. LOL.


What do you make of the fact that the majority of Jews in Israel are either from or descended from Jews from Arabic lands, Sephardi Jews, and what of Ethiopian, Chinese, Indian, and South American Jews?? You seem to have a hard time grasping the concept of a religio-nation when it comes to Jews. Do you have the same difficulties when it comes to a Jew free new Arab nation called Palestine, or the one called Jordan, or Saudi Arabia, or Egypt or....??? I could go on, but you might get my point.




> Like I said in your previos two threads, I wrote some very well thought out long posts and you chose to ignore them and repeat the same talking points. This is a forum dedicated to freedom, whenever someone posts an anti-zionist thread they are challenged. Yet you seem to not want to debate, if you post a Pro-Zionist thread that is based upon OBVIOUS anthropological lies, then I will challenge.


Even if the Khazarian claims were credible or relevant, which they are not, your sources are spurious and unreliable, not even close to objective. If you reject that the Jews lived in the Land of Israel throughout the last 3,000 years, and for much of that as the majority, and as a nation with it's own laws and specific culture (albeit occupied by foreign powers much of the time) and thus they have the right to re-constitute their nation on that same historic homeland, then you need to also take up the cause of the Moors. Furthermore, your logic leads me to believe you are morally obligated to give your home to the nearest Native American or Mexican, the Inuit  or Polynesians, depending on your location within the current nation called the united States of America. 

Lacking the normal perks that come with living in one's homeland, we being very adaptable, had our own version of immigration papers in order for those wishing to join us to legally enter into the nation while in exile, and we have felt the method suitable to this very day...namely, conversion papers. It has kept our people intact, and only allowed those into our nation who take an oath of loyalty to the nation and our laws, this oath being taken before a legal court of three highly trained judges (a Bais Din) and G-d. Those born Jewish have other documentation which governs their membership in this little community, marriage papers, divorce papers, bris milah certificates...

*Elya Katz:*
*
"The Arabs kept the Palestinians in refugee camps and made them into a people defeated both morally and materially. In contrast, the West welcomed the Jews and made them a leading [force] in science, arts, literature, economics and politics,” he wrote.
*



> That is because European/Western Civilization is the best form of civilization. As I have been saying on here for years.


Tell that to the Native Americans....

The reason for the Arabs who fled/left Israel during the War of Independence are still being kept in refugee camps is the political agenda, corruption, callousness and incompetence of UNRWA. Same goes to the Arab nations who could have taken these poor souls in, and rehabilitated them in 1/2 the time it took Israel to rehabilitate her refugees. There was no will do so, because these agencies and nations wanted to use them as political pawns. Even the UN, in it's more clear-headed moments, has admitted as much, and with great indignity, I might add.

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## ElyaKatz

> I find those who deny the existence of Palestine and Palestinians just as abhorrent, if not moreso, than holocaust deniers.


Read my post more carefully. I am not denying the existence of the people. In fact, I am quoting them, as they state that the term "Palestine" is merely a political expediency.

Your response is an ad hominem attack. I am putting you on notice; if you choose to continue in this mode, and don't stick to the issues, which I have stated carefully, factually and even-handedly, with impeccable resources to back my claims, then I will not feel any obligation whatsoever to respond. I simply don't have the time to reply to people who skim through my base post and then respond with surface emotions and personal attacks. If you respond in a thoughtful manner, with reliable resources linked or cited to back your claims, but include ad hominems, then I might respond to the thoughtful portions of your post, but I will not respond or quote your ad hominems and may choose to not respond at all.

Questions put to me with a sincere desire to know my opinion, that's another story, but questions that are repetitive or which are clearly intended as challenges in question form may not be entertained either. I can't do anything to stop these sorts of distractions from true debate, but I don't have to entertain them either.

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## amy31416

> Read my post more carefully. I am not denying the existence of the people. In fact, I am quoting them, as they state that the term "Palestine" is merely a political expediency.


"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.


"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel."
-- David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation)

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969. 

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."

-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.


(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988 

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.


"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.


Nope. There's no problem with Israeli leadership and their policy of apartheid, is there? The two most shameful things about America's inception is the treatment of Native Americans and slavery. And while I'm sure you're inspired by our history with the Native Americans, it's certainly nothing that anyone can ethically defend.

The Native Americans did not have a fully-structured government or a particular name for America (that I know of), but I'm absolutely sure that they are Native *Americans*, despite the fact that an outside group gave them that name. I'm also absolutely sure that they are human beings who were greatly wronged.

If you want to justify theft with the bible, political structures or plain old BS, you'll do better with people who don't put such importance on individual sovereignty and property ownership. Why bring your Hasbara propaganda here?

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## ElyaKatz

BS"D

Okay. Now post the links where you sourced your quotes, as I have done. Furthermore, I am not here to defend every single Israeli leader, nor every word that came out of their mouths -- certainly not David Ben-Gurion, Yitzchak Shamir or Ariel Sharon. No more than you or I can defend every single American leader. I have already said that social Zionists were and are a problem for many reasons. Nor am I crazy about Bibi's dealings either. I don't like how the Israeli government has handled much of Israeli history. But that doesn't negate the claim of the Jewish people to their homeland. 

You have not dealt with my quotes at all, and mine are sourced so that anyone can go to a library or to the link and read where I obtained them, and learn what the underlying bias is. You have not addressed the history that I outlined. In fact, all I get from your post is that you intensely dislike my point of view, but I am not understanding what in my posts you specifically take issue with...

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## amy31416

> Okay. Now post the links where you sourced your quotes, as I have done. Furthermore, I am not here to defend every single Israeli leader, certainly not David Ben-Gurion, Yitzchak Shamir or Ariel Sharon. No more than you or I can defend every single American leader. I have already said that social Zionists were and are a problem for many reasons.
> 
> You have not dealt with my quotes at all, and mine are sourced so that anyone can go to a library or to the link and read where I obtained them, and what the underlying bias is. You have not addressed the history that I outlined. In fact, all I get from your post is that you intensely dislike my point of view, but I am not understanding what in my posts you specifically take issue with...


Each quote has it's source which you can search. I've already given you far more time of day than I do a holocaust denier, so you'll have to answer your own questions and peddle your support for apartheid/theft/oppression with someone else.

For anyone else reading--Google "Hasbara Handbook" to see the Israeli gov'ts propaganda, which is what this guy is parroting here.

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## revolutionisnow

I look forward to your next threads on how War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength

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## ElyaKatz

> The Native Americans did not have a fully-structured government or a particular name for America (that I know of), but I'm absolutely sure that they are Native *Americans*, despite the fact that an outside group gave them that name. I'm also absolutely sure that they are human beings who were greatly wronged.


And it is interesting too that the land that the Jewish people are supposed to give away is called "Judea" and "Samaria". These are names have nothing to do with Arabs or Islam, everything to do with Jews and Judaism.




> If you want to justify theft with the bible, political structures or plain old BS, you'll do better with people who don't put such importance on individual sovereignty and property ownership. Why bring your Hasbara propaganda here?


I am sure that the Spanish would not have wanted this type of thinking around when they were busy regaining their stolen lands from the Moors. It took them 800 years all told, it took us 1200 but the principles behind each nations' absolute right to regain their lands is exactly the same.

If someone ever tosses you out of your home, improves the place for 50 years while you press your claim in court, and then you are obliged to pass your claim on to your children, and you never relinquish said claim, I think you should just counsel your children to let them have the place already. To reclaim a home after 50 or more years of that person living there is unreasonable. There are such things as squatters rights you know.

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## ElyaKatz

> Each quote has it's source which you can search. I've already given you far more time of day than I do a holocaust denier, so you'll have to answer your own questions and peddle your support for apartheid/theft/oppression with someone else.
> 
> For anyone else reading--Google "Hasbara Handbook" to see the Israeli gov'ts propaganda, which is what this guy is parroting here.


This "guy" is not a guy, and I have stated so already on other posts, but I don't expect you to read every post I ever wrote -- just sayin'. I have no questions, just asking you to provide links, it's a simple courtesy.

I can honestly say, my posts come from my own reading of Jewish/Israeli history over a span of 30+ years, although I may link some internet sources. I often source my own books from my own library, from well recognized authors. Of course, I have my bias, as do most people who bother to write about this conflict. I look for reliable sources on the internet. However, I have never taken the time to read the Israelis gov't's Hasbara Handbook. Might be helpful. Since Israel is a self-critical society, I would take their sources much more seriously than Arab sources, who murder their kinsman who dare say anything that varies to a significant degree from the party line...and who execute Arabs who sell property to Jews.

If you can't source your quotes, then don't bother posting on this thread, because I won't be taking them seriously. I can make the same exact claims regarding the obvious Arab propaganda you are claiming to be true, about apartheid/theft/oppression, namely that you are parroting propaganda. What books have you read from a Zionist, pro-Israel perspective, with an honest, inquiring mind??

Well that was easy.

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## Sandra

> This "guy" is not a guy, and I have stated so already on other posts, but I don't expect you to read every post I ever wrote -- just sayin'.
> 
> I can honestly say, my posts come from my own reading of Jewish/Israeli history over a span of 30+ years, although I may link some internet sources. I often source my own books from my own library, from well recognized authors. Of course, I have my bias, as do most people who bother to write about this conflict. I look for reliable sources on the internet. However, I have never taken the time to read the Israelis gov't's Hasbara Handbook. Might be helpful. Since Israel is a self-critical society, I would take their sources much more seriously than Arab sources, who murder their kinsman who dare say anything that varies to a significant degree from the party line...and who execute Arabs who sell property to Jews.
> 
> If you can't source your quotes, then don't bother posting on this thread, because I won't be taking them seriously. I make the same exact claims regarding the obvious Arab propaganda you are claiming to be true, about apartheid/theft/oppression. What books have you read from a Zionist, pro-Israel perspective, with an honest, inquiring mind??
> 
> Well that was easy.


What the hell is it with trolls popping up telling established members where they can post? I mean there were like four noobs that were banned and did the same thing, were they sock puppets of yours? I believe all of them were Orly Taitz fans too. Your blogs reads like Stormfront.

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## Dr.3D

> What the hell is it with trolls popping up telling established members where they can post? I mean there were like four noobs that were banned and did the same thing, were they sock puppets of yours? I believe all of them were Orly Taitz fans too. Your blogs reads like Stormfront.


Looked to me like a suggestion rather than telling anybody where they can post.
After all, since he did say he wouldn't be reading such posts that were not sourced, they would just be a waste of time for the poster.

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## Sandra

Same MO as the banned posters. Come on the forums, create a bunch of troll threads then get banned or just disappear.

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## Dr.3D

> Same MO as the banned posters. Come on the forums, create a bunch of troll threads then get banned or just disappear.


Just what criteria are you using to determine if someone is a troll?
Is it someone who starts a thread you don't agree with?

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## Sandra

> Just what criteria are you using to determine if someone is a troll?
> Is it someone who starts a thread you don't agree with?


Single issue poster. Have you been reading the threads? Can you show me where OP even addressed a Liberty issue?

----------


## Dr.3D

> Single issue poster. Have you been reading the threads?


Yes, I have been reading his threads.  I would say he is very interested in the issue he is posting about.   If I were to start threads solely about Canadian Health Care, would I be called a troll?

Liberty Star starts many threads that are pro Palestine/Anti-Israel, is he a troll too?   I would tend to think it he not a troll but rather someone who is very interested in what is going on in Palestine/Israel, from his point of view.

Is there some reason we should have only one side of an issue be covered while ignoring the other?

----------


## Sandra

Then, you might try reading the blog OP is linking to. Sometimes you have to step back to see the whole picture.

----------


## Dr.3D

> Then, you might try reading the blog OP is linking to. Sometimes you have to step back to see the whole picture.


I have briefly looked into that blog.... seems like it is pretty well done.  

What specifically in that blog do you find objectionable?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I look forward to your next threads on how War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength




Too deep for me.

----------


## amy31416

> Looked to me like a suggestion rather than telling anybody where they can post.
> After all, since he did say he wouldn't be reading such posts that were not sourced, they would just be a waste of time for the poster.


My post is sourced. Each individual quote has a name, date and media source.

And that source is not propaganda, as his is.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> What the hell is it with trolls popping up telling established members where they can post? I mean there were like four noobs that were banned and did the same thing, were they sock puppets of yours? I believe all of them were Orly Taitz fans too. Your blogs reads like Stormfront.


Well, of course I can't stop anyone from posting on this thread. It will be a waste of time if you want a response from me, unless you source your quotes, and that is what I meant. Sheesh. So determined to be offended.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Looked to me like a suggestion rather than telling anybody where they can post.
> After all, since he did say he wouldn't be reading such posts that were not sourced, they would just be a waste of time for the poster.


Righto.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Same MO as the banned posters. Come on the forums, create a bunch of troll threads then get banned or just disappear.


I'm not going anywhere. I'm not going to devote my life to this either. I feel no obligation to debate ad hominems. BTW, if someone quotes from a hard copy, obviously all they can do is cite the source, and not a link. I just think it's polite to link where possible. It doesn't take that much time, and makes it more likely that your reader will actually read your quotes, believe they do exist, as well as knowing from what bias they are drawn, all very important in deciding whether a quote is credible or not. Of course, these are all suggestions, as must be pointed out apparently. I just am not going to do googling for other folks. In keeping with my suggestions, I'm going to go over my hard copy quotes and either find them on the web sometime or state that they are found only in hard copy.

These suggestions are only made in an effort to keep sources credible. There's a lot of junk and disinformation on the net, as we all know. I've found many fake Talmud quotes for instance, and certainly the ones posted at the various antisemitic sites are completely taken out of context.

----------


## LATruth

Move to Israel if you love them so much. Maybe one day you will have the chance to plug up a hole used to deliver medicine, food, etc. to millions of starving homeless kids. Or better yet, drive one of those bulldozers yourself into a home occupied by 4 families, uproot their gardens, and possibly execute the providing male of the family. 

After all, this is what you support if you condone Israel's actions.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> My post is sourced. Each individual quote has a name, date and media source.
> 
> And that source is not propaganda, as his is.


Is it possible to A) calm down and B) please let me know if these sources can be found on the internet or if they are found only in hard copy??? I would be interested in looking at them in context if possible. But I'm not going to take on every nutty quote that every Israeli leader ever said and either defend or apologize for it. The point of my thread goes beyond the merit of a given Israeli leader. 

Let's take that homeowner again. What if his lawyer is an idiot? Does that mean he has no claim to his home, or that he needs a new lawyer? The plaintiff must certainly seek a new lawyer if one is available. But the house is still rightly his, is it not??? The burden of proof is much, much higher for the defendant in the case of a stolen national home that has never been relinquished, (public knowledge worldwide) and who's people have not disappeared, as is the case with the Jewish national home.

If you have a problem with that, then explain to me why the Spaniards had the right to reclaim Spain and the Kingdom of Granada from the Moors after 800 years of occupation.

----------


## Dunedain

> Jews are leery of someone who seems to have an unbalanced, excessively negative view of either Zionism or Israel?


Are you leery of someone who has excessively negative views of Nazism or Nazi Germany?  No, right?  

You appear to be apologizing for a racist, Jews only, genocidal ideology and country; you are simply a Jewish supremacist neo-neo-nazi.  Israel has taken a page from the nazis and has done what they could not.  Jews have put Arabs in concentration camps and then bombed the hell out of them using my tax dollars.  At least the nazis funded their own schemes instead of milking it out of other countries.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Move to Israel if you love them so much. Maybe one day you will have the chance to plug up a hole used to deliver medicine, food, etc. to millions of starving homeless kids. Or better yet, drive one of those bulldozers yourself into a home occupied by 4 families, uproot their gardens, and possibly execute the providing male of the family. 
> 
> After all, this is what you support if you condone Israel's actions.


Typical. As soon as someone defends Israel, then they are told to move there. You move to Gaza if you love it so much. As far as the alleged acts you ascribe to the Israelis, please provide proof from a reliable source. But since, in my opinion, your ad hominems are off point, I do not promise to respond. I suggest you start another thread, maybe on starving homeless kids in Gaza. And if you think I am a troll, then maybe you shouldn't "feed the troll"?? Just a suggestion.

----------


## LATruth

> If you have a problem with that, then explain to me why the Spaniards had the right to reclaim Spain and the Kingdom of Granada from the Moors after 800 years of occupation.


Are the Moors still being walled in, living in aparthied, with over 50% of the population under the age 16?




> Typical. As soon as someone defends Israel, then they are told to move there. You move to Gaza if you love it so much. As far as the alleged acts you ascribe to the Israelis, please provide proof from a reliable source.



HAHHAH I never said I loved Gaza so much, do you deny the wall being built and tunnels being bombed that sustain life?

YouTube - The Palestinian Perspective: What the World Looks Like from the West Bank an...

Your pro-Israel propaganda makes me want to vomit.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Are you leery of someone who has excessively negative views of Nazism or Nazi Germany?  No, right?  
> 
> You appear to be apologizing for a racist, Jews only, genocidal ideology and country; you are simply a Jewish supremacist neo-neo-nazi.  Israel has taken a page from the nazis and has done what they could not.  Jews have put Arabs in concentration camps and then bombed the hell out of them using my tax dollars.  At least the nazis funded their own schemes instead of milking it out of other countries.


This is another ad hominem. Does no one here know how to debate an issue or are thread hijacks the only way political opponents know how to deal with their frustration??

As far as the allegations you ascribe to Israel, again, please provide reliable proof. Maybe try to response to the base post. But bear in mind, if you take the time to do so, that I feel no obligation whatsoever to take on every single accusation leveled against Israel here. I suggest (and it is only a suggestion) that you read my base post, and the title of the thread. That's the topic that will be debated here. This isn't the "Everything you hate about Israel thread"....

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Are the Moors still being walled in, living in aparthied, with over 50% of the population under the age 16?


No. They were driven off the land via fire and blood. I suspect a lot of them died during that 800 year campaign to drive them off Spanish soil. The Spaniards were fortunate enough not to have the world interfering in their natural G-d given rights to reclaim their land via the UN.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Are you leery of someone who has excessively negative views of Nazism or Nazi Germany?  No, right?  
> 
> You appear to be apologizing for a racist, Jews only, genocidal ideology and country; you are simply a Jewish supremacist neo-neo-nazi.  Israel has taken a page from the nazis and has done what they could not.  Jews have put Arabs in concentration camps and then bombed the hell out of them using my tax dollars.  At least the nazis funded their own schemes instead of milking it out of other countries.


No parallel. The Germans were the aggressors, the Germans waged a propaganda war against a peaceful, productive, patriotic Jewish community, then they went on an insane, determined rampage to destroy them to the last infant, and steal every bit of property the Jewish community possessed, even gold fillings, their hair, their shoes, their glasses. In fact, the Germans still possess much stolen Jewish property. The Germans have little reason to be looking over their shoulder.

----------


## LATruth

What a wonderful country you defend so vehemently... looks like such a pleasant place to raise a Palestinian child. I wish I could be there.

----------


## Dunedain

> This is another ad hominem. Does no one here know how to debate an issue or are thread hijacks the only way political opponents know how to deal with their frustration??
> 
> As far as the allegations you ascribe to Israel, again, please provide reliable proof. Maybe try to response to the base post. But bear in mind, if you take the time to do so, that I feel no obligation whatsoever to take on every single accusation leveled against Israel here. I suggest (and it is only a suggestion) that you read my base post, and the title of the thread. That's the topic that will be debated here. This isn't the "Everything you hate about Israel thread"....


How do you debate with a Jewish Supremacist neo-nazi position?  Um...noooo, you don't have a right to genocide others.  I think that is self-evident.

Are you denying the Palestinian Holocaust?  Provide you with evidence indeed!  How sick of you to even have the Chutzpah to demand it.


You can do your own research on all the murderous crimes your much loved zio-nazi state has committed with my tax dollars.  Count the missing limbs of the children your racist ideology has torn off while you are at it.

----------


## Dr.3D

Out of curiosity, I decided to check just the first quote amy31416 posted.



> "We must expel Arabs and take their places."
> -- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.





> We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs. 
> Letter to his son Amos (5 October 1937), as quoted in Shabtai Teveth, _Ben Gurion: The Burning Ground_; and _Fabricating Israeli History: The 'New Historians_ (2000) by Efraim Karsh; this has been extensively misquoted as "[We] must expel Arabs and take their places" after appearing in this form in _The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949_ (1987) by Benny Morris, p. 25.
> http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion


Now I have to wonder how many more of those quotes are actually misquotes.

----------


## amy31416

On human shields and Israel's accusations against Hamas:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4333982.stm
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...387356,00.html
http://www.btselem.org/english/human...beit_hanun.asp
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1065594.html

----------


## ElyaKatz

Are the Moors still being walled in, living in aparthied, with over 50% of the population under the age 16?




> HAHHAH I never said I loved Gaza so much, do you deny the wall being built and tunnels being bombed that sustain life?


Yes I would. Walls are being built to keep suicide bombers out of Israel and tunnels are being bombed that are used to smuggle weapons that are then used to destroy Jewish homes and schools.




> Your pro-Israel propaganda makes me want to vomit.


If that's the case LA, then why are you here? You know what I'm going to write.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Out of curiosity, I decided to check just the first quote amy31416 posted.
> 
> 
> Now I have to wonder how many more of those quotes are actually misquotes.


It's worth researching.

----------


## amy31416

> Out of curiosity, I decided to check just the first quote amy31416 posted.
> 
> 
> Now I have to wonder how many more of those quotes are actually misquotes.


http://books.google.com/books?id=Oju...gurion&f=false

----------


## Dunedain

> No parallel. The Germans were the agressors, the Germans waged a propaganda war against a peaceful, productive, patriotic Jewish community, then they went on an insane, determined rampage to destroy them to the last infant, and steal every bit of property the Jewish community possessed, even gold fillings, their hair, their shoes, their glasses. In fact, the Germans still possess much stolen Jewish property. The Germans have little reason to be looking over their shoulder.


You just described what Jews are doing to Arabs, except Palestinians don't have any gold fillings for the Jews to steal, and they are low on glasses and shoes also.  Arabs are pushed into your concentration camps in Gaza and the West Bank and they blame ME for funding it, and I want my money back.

----------


## Dr.3D

> http://books.google.com/books?id=Oju...gurion&f=false


So who is to say Ilan Pappé didn't misquote what Ben Gurion actually said?

----------


## amy31416

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_...ss_destruction
http://www.wisconsinproject.org/coun...rael/nuke.html
http://www.cdi.org/issues/nukef&f/database/isnukes.html
http://www.atomicarchive.com/Almanac...s_static.shtml
http://msnbc.com/news/wld/graphics/s..._israel_dw.htm
http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/Israel/Nuclear/

----------


## LATruth

> Yes I would. Walls are being built to keep suicide bombers out of Israel and tunnels are being bombed that are used to smuggle weapons that are then used to destroy Jewish homes and schools.


Pathetic, truly. When you are trying to feed millions of malnourished people I would say that weapons would take a backseat in the priorities list of what to smuggle into Gaza... 

You're lucky I'm not a MOD here, you would have been banned for peddling blatant, pro-genocidal, Israeli propaganda. 

Please try to remember that when you post here, you post among free thinking, informed, no-kool-aid drinking motherfuckers that see through the lies. Maybe your time would be better spent fraternizing on the Obama forums, I hear the pro-Israeli movement is alive and well there, they may ever have Rahm Emmanuel and Netanyahu nudie pics for you as well.

----------


## Dr.3D

> Pathetic, truly. When you are trying to feed millions of malnourished people I would say that weapons would take a backseat in the priorities list of what to smuggle into Gaza... 
> 
> You're lucky I'm not a MOD here, you would have been banned for peddling blatant, pro-genocidal, Israeli propaganda. 
> 
> Please try to remember that when you post here, you post among free thinking, informed, no-kool-aid drinking motherfuckers that see through the lies. Maybe your time would be better spent fraternizing on the Obama forums, I hear the pro-Israeli movement is alive and well there, they may ever have Rahm Emmanuel and Netanyahu nudie pics for you as well.


And just what makes you think you haven't been duped by the pro Palestine propaganda machine?

----------


## Dunedain

> Please try to remember that when you post here, you post among free thinking, informed, no-kool-aid drinking motherfuckers that see through the lies.


Holy crap...this place is feeling like home already.

----------


## amy31416

http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq22.html
http://attendingtheworld.wordpress.c...f-deir-yassin/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of...archs_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Odeh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

----------


## Dunedain

> And just what makes you think you haven't been duped by the pro Palestine propaganda machine?


hmmm...I don't see a lot of anything anti-israel in the MSM.

----------


## LATruth

> And just what makes you think you haven't been duped by the pro Palestine propaganda machine?


riiiight....

----------


## Dr.3D

> hmmm...not on any of the channels on my T.V.   Radio maybe?


The machine is alive and well in the internet.

----------


## Dunedain

> The machine is alive and well in the internet.


they're marginalized by the MSM too...huh?  The Internet is the last refuge of truth these days.

----------


## amy31416

http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf
http://my.opera.com/salventura/blog/...sbara-handbook
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article23044.htm
http://www.muzzlewatch.com/2009/03/1...your-opponent/

----------


## Dr.3D

> they're marginalized by the MSM too...huh?  The Internet is the last refuge of truth these days.


LOL, reminds me of the song Alice's Restaurant.



> You can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant.


You can also find any truth you want on the internet.  It seems to be just a matter of who's truth you want to believe.

----------


## LATruth

> The Internet is the last refuge of truth these days.


That too is being stripped away, piece by piece. I love incremental tyranny, you hardly even notice it!

----------


## ElyaKatz

> How do you debate with a Jewish Supremacist neo-nazi position?  Um...noooo, you don't have a right to genocide others.  I think that is self-evident.
> 
> Are you denying the Palestinian Holocaust?  Provide you with evidence indeed!  How sick of you to even have the Chutzpah to demand it.
> 
> 
> You can do your own research on all the murderous crimes your much loved zio-nazi state has committed with my tax dollars.  Count the missing limbs of the children your racist ideology has torn off while you are at it.


The photos show dead children. They do not show who killed these children and under what circumstances. Have you seen the Arab babies with bomb belts strapped to them? Have you witnessed the the Arab mothers celebrating their son's suicide bombings?? This is a tragedy. It is somebody's tragedy, but there is no way to know how this tragedy happened, who is to blame and who is the grieving party. It's one thing to get everyone's emotions worked up over such photos, but it simply does not prove that Israelis targeted these children. There has been so much lying on the part of Pallywood that it is very difficult to sort through and find out what the truth is with only photos to go by.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> You just described what Jews are doing to Arabs, except Palestinians don't have any gold fillings for the Jews to steal, and they are low on glasses and shoes also.  Arabs are pushed into your concentration camps in Gaza and the West Bank and they blame ME for funding it, and I want my money back.


Tell you what. I think President Obama has signed a bill that will finally allow the trapped Gaza Arabs to leave the Gaza strip. And civilians should leave. It's a war zone. I have, with all sincerity believed that the civilians in the Gaza strip need to get out of the way.

Let the IDF and Hamas battle it out without danger being posed to the civilians. Many of these civilians will probably receive funds from the US government (I know, that damned US foreign aid again) in order to resettle here. So, when they do, you can personally apologize that your tax dollars were used to buy Israeli weapons that murdered their innocents. With any luck these folks will move very close to you and you'll have a convenient opportunity at some point. _Will that make you feel better?_ 

Disclaimer: Parts of this post is for entertainment purposes only. It in no way admits to the allegations posed against Israel or the IDF by the accuser, said ryanrayner. I'm serious that it's good if the Gaza civilians leave. They are definitely in danger with Hamas ruling them.

----------


## LATruth

> The photos show dead children. They do not show who killed these children and under what circumstances. Have you seen the Arab babies with bomb belts strapped to them? Have you witnessed the the Arab mothers celebrating their son's suicide bombings?? This is a tragedy. It is somebody's tragedy, but there is no way to know how this tragedy happened, who is to blame and who is the grieving party. It's one thing to get everyone's emotions worked up over such photos, but it simply does not prove that Israelis targeted these children. There has been so much lying on the part of Pallywood that it is very difficult to sort through and find out what the truth is with only photos to go by.


You resort to such tactics when you don't have Cobra gunships, tanks, and F-16's. Excuse the Palestinians for acting in such a barbaric manner, maybe I should e-mail their leader and petition him to apply for some U.S. government weapons and aid to level the playing field a bit more. 

Your omission of certain facts regarding the available means of force for the Palestinians vs Israel is just as bad as lying about it.

----------


## amy31416

JIDF
CAMERA
SPLC
ADL
Megaphone
AIPAC
GIYUS


Amongst others. Perhaps you wouldn't need so much propaganda if you just did the right thing. I know, you're just very misunderstood oppressors and you need a giant army of people to defend your actions, such as shooting off white phosphorous in Gaza.

----------


## Flash

> What do you make of the fact that the majority of Jews in Israel are either from or descended from Jews from Arabic lands, Sephardi Jews,


Sephardic Jews are Meds, they come from Iberia mostly.




> and what of Ethiopian, Chinese, Indian, and South American Jews??


They're converts to Judaism.




> You seem to have a hard time grasping the concept of a religio-nation when it comes to Jews.


No, I don't. Ashkenazi Jews make up 80% of Jewry. And when it comes to the descendents of Abraham, it is good to be precise. From my research, it seems as if Judaism is an invented religion that was NOT followed by the 12 Israelite Tribes. And I have a pretty good feeling on where the tribes are today.




> Do you have the same difficulties when it comes to a Jew free new Arab nation called Palestine, or the one called Jordan, or Saudi Arabia, or Egypt or....??? I could go on, but you might get my point.


It's been proven Saudis haven't changed racially, as they have never had a major immigration into their Arabian peninsula. Egyptians have been genetically proven to be the same as ancient Egyptians. And Palestinians are very similiar to other Levant natives like the Lebanese & Syrians.






> Even if the Khazarian claims were credible or relevant, which they are not,


Yes they are. Otherwise the whole concept of blond-haired, blue-eyed Israelites being exiled, magically begin claling themselves Jews, just sounds silly. Like I said, Ashkenazis are either Meds, Alpines, or Nordics. Not from the Levant where Israel is. 




> your sources are spurious and unreliable, not even close to objective.


I didn't post any sources, it all comes from my own knowledge of anthropology and reading genetecist studies.




> If you reject that the Jews lived in the Land of Israel throughout the last 3,000 years,


For one, Jews aren't Israelites, this can't be repeated enough. 




> and for much of that as the majority, and as a nation with it's own laws and specific culture (albeit occupied by foreign powers much of the time) and thus they have the right to re-constitute their nation on that same historic homeland, then you need to also take up the cause of the Moors. Furthermore, your logic leads me to believe you are morally obligated to give your home to the nearest Native American or Mexican, the Inuit  or Polynesians, depending on your location within the current nation called the united States of America.


How? I am native to America, my people were here first according to Anthropologists and tons of evidence.






> Tell that to the Native Americans....


I will and already have. The Clovis European people were first upon the continent. I do not wish to debate about this if I don't have to (since it's derailed threads in the pasts) but I have a bunch of evidence supporting my claims. The Soultrean culture is actually what my ancestors were apart of. So, I have much more right to North America than Amerindian Mongolids from Siberia do.

But my arguement with Israel isn't that Jews shouldn't live there. It's this:

1) No proof of Israeliets being Jews and vice versa. See my points earlier in this post and my previous one.
2) No bullying of Palestinians. Remove the concentration camps.
3) No foreign aid given to israel blah blah blah.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> So who is to say Ilan Pappé didn't misquote what Ben Gurion actually said?


Pappe is a communist. In Israel this usually means an anti-Jew Jew, one who tends towards treason. Thus, his views and research are suspect to me. 

Pappes work is widely criticized in Israel, and is also questioned by Benny Morris, among Israels' "new historians. Benny Morris, who states that "although war crimes were committed, there's "no unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre." In criticizing Pappe, Morris states, "Unfortunately much of what Pappé tries to sell his readers is complete fabrication. This book is awash with errors of a quantity and a quality that are not found in serious historiography. The multiplicity of mistakes on each page is a product of both Pappé's historical methodology and his political proclivities. For those enamored with subjectivity and in thrall to historical relativism, a fact is not a fact and accuracy is unattainable."

*Wikipedia on Ilan Pappe*

----------


## revolutionisnow

Communist means anti Jew? Communism was a Jewish brainchild and movement! 



2 awful ideologies, both of which are destroying this country

----------


## amy31416

> Pappe is a communist. In Israel this usually means an anti-Jew Jew, one who tends towards treason. Thus, his views and research are suspect to me. 
> 
> Pappes work is widely criticized in Israel, and is also questioned by Benny Morris, among Israels' "new historians. Benny Morris, who states that "although war crimes were committed, there's "no unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre." In criticizing Pappe, Morris states, "Unfortunately much of what Pappé tries to sell his readers is complete fabrication. This book is awash with errors of a quantity and a quality that are not found in serious historiography. The multiplicity of mistakes on each page is a product of both Pappé's historical methodology and his political proclivities. For those enamored with subjectivity and in thrall to historical relativism, a fact is not a fact and accuracy is unattainable."
> 
> *Wikipedia on Ilan Pappe*


Same deal on Finkelstein and any other Jew who dares to be intellectually honest enough to criticize Israel's policies.

The "self-hating Jew" argument gets pretty old when Israel is actually committing the atrocities that they criticize it for.

I do admire how you stick to your guns though:

Someone criticizes Israel? ANTI-SEMITE!
A Jew criticizes Israel? Self-Hating Jew!"
The UN grants Israel statehood, then eventually criticizes them for their actions in stealing land? THEY'RE BIASED AGAINST ISRAEL!

Accch. Don't you eventually get tired of yourself? Wouldn't you rather be doing something great with your life? Is it not true that Israel could be a beacon of Democracy, rationality, peace, humility and humanity in the Middle East, yet they choose violence, oppression, paranoia and hatred instead?

Completely tiresome. Which is just one more reason I want Israel out of our government and certainly off of our welfare roles. Time to put on the big-boy pants, Israel--you have hundreds of nukes, plenty of arms, lots of money, cut the god damned apron strings and stand or fall on your own.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Communist means anti Jew? Communism was a Jewish brainchild and movement! 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 awful ideologies, both of which are destroying this country


*Communism in Israel is a different animal completely. Known fact to most Israelis.*

----------


## ElyaKatz

> http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf
> http://my.opera.com/salventura/blog/...sbara-handbook
> http://informationclearinghouse.info/article23044.htm
> http://www.muzzlewatch.com/2009/03/1...your-opponent/


Thanks for the information. I'll read it more thoroughly at some point. Since I don't express my viewpoints on Israel in a professional capacity, I will have to take some time to look it over.

----------


## Pod

Let me sum up the article, "Palestinians are just your generic Arabs so they can just $#@! off to other Arabian countries."

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Same deal on Finkelstein and any other Jew who dares to be intellectually honest enough to criticize Israel's policies.


There has been, throughout history the Jewish version of the proverbial "Uncle Tom." They don't have my respect. I'll deal with the rest of the above quoted post later. 

I have, once again, witnessed a thread that dares to present a pro-Israel perspective based on history and facts, and I watch as it gets totally derailed. Have any of my ideological opponents actually dealt with the base post of this thread, which in forum courtesy, is supposed to be the topic of this thread? 

This is not the "Israel bashing thread". This is a discussion on whether or not there is in fact, a people called the Palestinian people that goes back before 1967?? Do the Arab people really believe there is a Palestinian people? Who were the Palestinians before 1948?? I am going to comb through these tiresome posts, mostly childish ad hominems, and see if there is anything in response to the base post that has anything worthwhile to respond to.

Polemical discussions are not helpful. I much prefer an intellectual discussion. But this thread is helpful in one way. In the irrational, repeatedly off-point responses, I see people who have very weak arguments.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Single issue poster. Have you been reading the threads? Can you show me where OP even addressed a Liberty issue?


In my base post here, I go over what my motivation is in honing in on those here who focus on Israel as if America's support of Israel is the sum and substance of all our problems, as if anti-Zionism = Liberty.

----------


## Pod

> This is not the "Israel bashing thread". This is a discussion on whether or not there is in fact, a people called the Palestinian people that goes back before 1967?? Do the Arab people really believe there is a Palestinian people? Who were the Palestinians before 1948?? I am going to comb through these tiresome posts, mostly childish ad hominems, and see if there is anything in response to the base post that has anything worthwhile to respond to.


Oh we wouldn`t dare bash Israel. It is clear that if there isn`t a Palestinian people then it is alright to ethnicaly cleanse them. I mean it is no crime to victimise generic Arabs everyone knows that.

You can stick your collectivism where the sun don`t shine. We couldn`t care less what people the victims belong to. They are induviduals and have a right to their property, lives and freedom as such. The induvidual is the bearer of rights not the collective.

In your twisted mind it is a lesser crime to expell a part of a large people than it is to expell the whole of a small people, but 5 million people driven from their homes is 5 million people driven from their homes. Wether they be Arab, Palestinian or Scythians for all it matters.

----------


## ramallamamama

Wow, another AIPAC PSYOP.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> What a wonderful country you defend so vehemently... looks like such a pleasant place to raise a Palestinian child. I wish I could be there.


*It is rough to see Arab children so terribly mistreated. Inhumane.*




These two photos are of a 14 year old boy who had been paid NIS 100 by fellow Arab men (about $20-30 depending on the exchange rate at the time) to strap a suicide bomb belt to his waist. _"A Tanzim cell from the Balata refugee camp in Nablus claimed responsibility for sending the boy."_ The story can be found here, and probably at other sites as well:

*14-year-old suicide bomber intercepted*

The Israeli soldiers were actually very gentle with him. I had Israeli satellite TV at the time and watched the entire episode from start to finish. I looked for Youtube videos of this episode, but they've been pulled. Anyway, it was very sad, and really upset the Israeli soldiers. Hamas and the Taliban have been reported to kidnap children for use as suicide bombers. You can see the sapper's robot sent to the boy with scissors so he could cut the bomb belt off. It is next to the boy on the lower right part of the top photo.

*Contrast that to the absolute terror that this IDF soldier strikes into the hearts of these Arab children.*

YouTube - Israeli Solder Entertains Kids at Border
Look, I know it's hard to wrap our civilized American minds around this fact, but there is true evil being primed against Israel in Fatah, Hezbollah and Hamas. There was a recent video, also pulled by Youtube, where Hezbollah was teaching grade school children to eat live snakes. They then gave each child a cute little puppy. The puppies were wriggling and licking the children's faces. They were then instructed to break the puppies necks as they yelled at the children "Kill the Jews!". Hard to imagine in this day and age, but what Israel is fighting is not a battle between two civilizations. It is a battle between utter barbarity and civilization. I make no claim that Israel or Israelis are perfect. I got angry with Israelis many times while I lived there. They're not as polite as I am accustomed to. On the other hand, they will give you the shirt off their backs if they see you need it. Israel is far from perfect and any Israeli will admit as much very readily. The contrast between the general, normal goodness of Israelis and the pure evil of Fatah, Hezbollah and Hamas is a stark contrast. It's shocking, right down to the bones once one encounters it face to face.

I have been a guest in Arab homes. They are not all like Hamas and Hezbollah. The families I visited on several occasions, one in Nazareth, and one Bedouin family, would put any American to shame in the level of honor and hospitality they accord their guests. As I have written many times, before Yasir Arafat and his murderous henchmen were resurrected from political death on the beaches of Tunisia, Israeli Jews and the Arabs, both within the Green Line and the Administered Territories were working out a defacto peace, and had begun to develop friendships. In fact, there had been some very long-standing friendships, some of which do still endure the current political difficulties. 

The Arabs in Gaza, in Judea and Samaria, and in Lebanon are the first and foremost victims of Fatah, Hamas and Hezbollah. 

YouTube - Nonie Darwish - Jihad Culture 
YouTube - Walid Shoebat-Ex-Islamist Speaks against Islam

Noni Darwish and Walid Shoebat will tell you what it was like to grow up under the thumbs of Fatah, and Hamas. Walid Shoebat came home shocked one day and told his father that his teachers were teaching the boys how to rape Jewish girls. Walid expressed his natural revulsion to this crime and was told by his father "no son, this is good."

----------


## Pod

> Hard to imagine in this day and age, but what Israel is fighting is not a battle between two civilizations. It is a battle between utter barbarity and civilization.



Is that you Adolf? Reminds me of the battle between eropean civilisation and the judeobolshevik barbarism.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Is that you Adolf? Reminds me of the battle between eropean civilisation and the judeobolshevik barbarism.


And this is the best counterpoint you can make??

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Let me sum up the article, "Palestinians are just your generic Arabs so they can just $#@! off to other Arabian countries."


They refuse to live in peace with Jews. What is your solution?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Oh we wouldn`t dare bash Israel. It is clear that if there isn`t a Palestinian people then it is alright to ethnicaly cleanse them. I mean it is no crime to victimise generic Arabs everyone knows that.
> 
> You can stick your collectivism where the sun don`t shine. We couldn`t care less what people the victims belong to. They are induviduals and have a right to their property, lives and freedom as such. The induvidual is the bearer of rights not the collective.
> 
> In your twisted mind it is a lesser crime to expell a part of a large people than it is to expell the whole of a small people, but 5 million people driven from their homes is 5 million people driven from their homes. Wether they be Arab, Palestinian or Scythians for all it matters.


And the Jews??? It's okay to expel them I suppose? It's not okay for Jews to defend themselves? Then they are being barbarians? When the time comes that you have to defend yourself agains fanatical jihadis in America, do remember your words.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> LOL, reminds me of the song Alice's Restaurant.
> 
> 
> You can also find any truth you want on the internet.  It seems to be just a matter of who's truth you want to believe.


I really like Alices' Restaurant. I think i'm going to buy me an mp3 copy. I had the LP, but I think I tossed it out one day, in a fit of getting rid of old stuff.

----------


## Pod

> And this is the best counterpoint you can make??


LOL. Of course it is the best point. All genodical freaks present themselves as being paragons of civilisation with the massacres being neccesitied by the barbarity of the enemy. As soon as someone claims himself to be the civilised fighting the barbarous red flags start to go up for anyone versed in history.

----------


## Pod

> And the Jews??? It's okay to expel them I suppose? It's not okay for Jews to defend themselves? Then they are being barbarians? When the time comes that you have to defend yourself agains fanatical jihadis in America, do remember your words.


Yes I`m sure. You`re fighting them over there so we don`t have to fight them over here.

But wait, what did Ron Paul say about that?

----------


## Pod

> They refuse to live in peace with Jews. What is your solution?


When I refuse to live in peace with a burglar in my house the solution is for the burglar to leave.

The solution if for all the stolen property to be returned to their rightful owners or their descendands. That includes confiscated land. 

How much of Israel`s land mass is made of land owned by Arabs expelled from their villages? Two-thirds?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> When I refuse to live in peace with a burglar in my house the solution is for the burglar to leave.


Right. We've tried that, but burglars keep coming. We're back. No apologies.




> The solution if for all the stolen property to be returned to their rightful owners or their descendands. That includes confiscated land.


Exactly. But that land is Jewish land, not Arab land. The Arabs began expropriating the land beginning in the mid 600's. There is no statute of limitations on a stolen national homeland. There is a reason why Arabs come from the lands of Arabia, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates....

Arabs are not indigenous to Judea and Samaria. We'll see how smug you are when they do the same thing in America they have done all over the world. And after 500 years of Arab occupation of America, and an imposition of sharia, after Americans finally get the backbone up to fight for their way of life again, for their constitution, will they ask Israel for help? Wow. What a sad picture that is. I don't look forward to it.




> How much of Israel`s land mass is made of land owned by Arabs expelled from their villages? Two-thirds?


According to which source? My sources say very little, if any. The land was legally purchased from Arab effendis over a long period of time, at very inflated prices. Other lands in Eretz Israel was won in wars of defense by Israel. Land can't be acquired in wars of aggression, but in wars of defense, particularly if the land is needed to thwart future attacks, it's perfectly legitimate to keep the land the defending party has won.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> LOL. Of course it is the best point. All genodical freaks present themselves as being paragons of civilisation with the massacres being neccesitied by the barbarity of the enemy. As soon as someone claims himself to be the civilised fighting the barbarous red flags start to go up for anyone versed in history.


Ahh more ad hominems. Looking weak. There is really a scarcity of facts coming my way from my opponents.

----------


## Bman

> But that land is Jewish land, not Arab land.


God just told me the land is mine.  I expect all of you to be out by next week.

----------


## Pod

> Right. We've tried that, but burglars keep coming. We're back. No apologies.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. But that land is Jewish land, not Arab land. The Arabs began expropriating the land beginning in the mid 600's. There is no statute of limitations on a stolen national homeland. There is a reason why Arabs come from the lands of Arabia, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates....
> 
> Arabs are not indigenous to Judea and Samaria. We'll see how smug you are when they do the same thing in America they have done all over the world. And after 500 years of Arab occupation of America, and an imposition of sharia, after Americans finally get the backbone up to fight for their way of life again, for their constitution, will they ask Israel for help? Wow. What a sad picture that is. I don't look forward to it.
> 
> 
> ...


The era of European colonialism is over. You are a Western colonialist implant on Asian soil. Learn to adapt and accomodate the natives or get out.

The whites of South Africa surrendered their supremacy in 1994. When will you surrender yours?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> The era of European colonialism is over. You are a Western colonialist implant on Asian soil. Learn to adapt and accomodate the natives or get out.
> 
> The whites of South Africa surrendered their supremacy in 1994. When will you surrender yours?


You write this as if you actually have something to say about it all. You don't. You have your propaganda. That's all. None of you has responded to any facts with counter-facts, only hyperbole and drama. Questionable sources from questionable "researchers", photos that are not attributed to the correct event or are untraceable, at least as presented. 

There is no way to have an intelligent debate here on points and counterpoints. None. Because you're all so convinced. I will say this again. If the Jews, who have been proven to be overwhelmingly Middle Eastern by actual genetic science, do not have a claim on their land, which can be proven to have been expropriated by the very people who claim the same crime falsely, then most Americans on the continent of North America and South America had better start packing and go back to where they came from, be it Europe, Africa, China or wherever, and leave the occupied territories of America to the original Native Americans, because this land has only been a nation run by foreigners for a bit over 200 years, a drop in the bucket of history.

Compared to most residents of the America's, Jewish claims to the Land of Israel is undeniable. So, everyone but the Flash guy...pack up. Go home.

----------


## Objectivist

It's the home of the Jews.

----------


## Bman

Elya, 

mid-600's you are kidding aren't you?  If you are being serious, well, may god have mercy on your soul.  

If you think society should go back 1500 years into the past to decide who should live where, you are flat out bonkers.

So by your accounts I just have to go back in history, find an instance of when someone kicked my ancestors off a property, claim it as my own?

Are you so sure no one was there before your ancestors?  More claims to come?  Pure nonsense?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Elya, 
> 
> mid-600's you are kidding aren't you?  If you are being serious, well, may god have mercy on your soul.  
> 
> If you think society should go back 1500 years into the past to decide who should live where, you are flat out bonkers.
> 
> So by your accounts I just have to go back in history, find an instance of when someone kicked my ancestors off a property, claim it as my own?
> 
> Are you so sure no one was there before your ancestors?  More claims to come?  Pure nonsense?


Read Netanyahu's _A Place Among the Nations_. He is an excellent historian, and explains very clearly the legalities of stolen homelands. Like I have said several times, it took the Spaniards a total of 800 years to get back their lands from the Muslims (Moors). For those years, they were pushed into a little tiny corner of northern Spain. It took the Jewish people 1200 years to do the same thing, and much more peacefully, only resorting to violence when forced to defend themselves. The same principles apply in both situations. The reason you can't see it is because history has ceased to matter to you. Only the present matters, but the present is an extension of the past, and is affected in very real ways by the past.

If someone stole your home, do you relinquish or fight for it? There were many, many attempts from the 600's on for Jews to return to their homeland, but they were often illegally prevented from doing so by the occupying powers. Never have the Jewish people relinquished their rights to their homeland. Every single day, for a minimum of 3 times a day, the Jewish people laid a renewed claim to "Zion". Moreover, the Jewish people have not disappeared. Thus, with those two conditions in place, there exists no statute of limitations on our stolen homeland. The claims of the Arab people are inferior to those of the original owners, similar in many ways to the claims of a homeowner...with some significant differences.

No, I am absolutely not kidding. Does it look like Israeli Jews are kidding?? They are very, very serious, and will fight to the last man to remain on their land.

Arabs were not thrown out of their homes in order for the Jewish people to rebuild their lives in Israel, Arab propaganda notwithstanding. Furthermore, just as many Jews can claim an equally long lineage of family having never left the region, probably more. There was already a nation of Israel in the Land. In 1948 the only thing that changed was the worlds' official recognition.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> may god have mercy on your soul.


Thank you. He is very merciful to us all. Good thing too.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> The era of European colonialism is over. You are a Western colonialist implant on Asian soil. Learn to adapt and accomodate the natives or get out.
> 
> The whites of South Africa surrendered their supremacy in 1994. When will you surrender yours?


Over half of the Jewish population presently living in Israel came from Arab lands, many thrown out of their homes, forced to arrive in Israel with only the clothes on their backs. Several of these Jewish communities in Arab/Muslim nations could trace their families back to the first exile. And yet, they lost everything...due to Muslim bigotry. 

*Jewish Genetics*

Excerpt:

*"Although the Ashkenazi (European) Jewish community separated from their Mediterranean ancestors some 1,200 years ago and lived among Central and Eastern European gentiles, their paternal gene pool still resembles that of other Jewish and Semitic groups originating in the Middle East.

A low rate of intermarriage between Diaspora Jews and local gentiles was the key reason for this continuity. Since the Jews first settled in Europe more than 50 generations ago, the intermarriage rate was estimated to be only about 0.5% in each generation.

The Ashkenazi paternal gene pool does not appear to be similar to that of present-day Turkish speakers. This finding opposes the suggestion that Ashkenazim are descended from the Kuzars, a Turkish-Asian empire that converted to Judaism en masse in or about the 8th century CE."*

What did you say about European colonialism?

In my opinion, since most Americans are of European descent, and have no "dog" in the Middle Eastern conflict, those acting more like European colonial powers are the American government, which has the chutzpah to tell Jews in their homeland of Israel where they can and can't build, and -- no big surprise -- the EU. Americans and Europeans should just butt out and let the cousins work things out. Do business?? Sure. But leave Middle Easterners to their own disputes. It will end very quickly if these peoples are respected enough to be left alone to duke it out.

Another interesting fact: Have you ever listened to Jewish chanting when praying in Hebrew and Arabic chanting during prayers?? They sound very similar. There's a reason for that. Oh, and the two (well three if one includes Aramaic) languages are closely related.

To deny all of these links, evidence and facts seems to me to approach the absurd. Don't try to sell the mass conversion fallacy. What people would choose to be driven from land to land, enduring expropriations and pogroms if there weren't a continuous generational link from Sinai and the giving of the Torah to now?

Well, this has been fun, but I must get on with my life. Cya sometime. Thanks for helping me dig further for evidence of what I already knew was the wonderful truth. I am a member of an amazing people with an incredible past and an even more incredible future. What a privilege.

Be well all. Be happy. Know G-d...it's the only way to true happiness as He created your soul and knows where you belong in world. We all have a very special purpose to fulfill. Knowing one's place in the world is the only way to understand the world.

----------


## Bman

> No, I am absolutely not kidding. Does it look like Israeli Jews are kidding?? They are very, very serious, and will fight to the last man to remain on their land.


Right on.

Very peaceful solution, huh?  Us and them.  Thanks for proving one of my prior point to you.

I'd think trade would be a much better system.

----------


## Pod

> There is no way to have an intelligent debate here on points and counterpoints. None. Because you're all so convinced. I will say this again. If the Jews, who have been proven to be overwhelmingly Middle Eastern by actual genetic science, do not have a claim on their land, which can be proven to have been expropriated by the very people who claim the same crime falsely, then most Americans on the continent of North America and South America had better start packing and go back to where they came from, be it Europe, Africa, China or wherever, and leave the occupied territories of America to the original Native Americans, because this land has only been a nation run by foreigners for a bit over 200 years, a drop in the bucket of history.
> 
> Compared to most residents of the America's, Jewish claims to the Land of Israel is undeniable. So, everyone but the Flash guy...pack up. Go home.


My town isn`t built on the ruins of a preceeding town. My grandfather didn`t throw out anybody from his house to move into it himself.

The issue in North America has never been land. There is plenty of land for everyone. So much land that the American natives never even developed the concept of ownership of land as it was not scarce.

The only issue in America is of political power. But see here you and I differ. I have nothing American natives seceeding from the US federeal government and going it alone. I support the Republic of Lakotah project. I am not making excuses for the continued mistreatment of the natives by the US government. You are.

----------


## Pod

> Over half of the Jewish population presently living in Israel came from Arab lands, many thrown out of their homes, forced to arrive in Israel with only the clothes on their backs. Several of these Jewish communities in Arab/Muslim nations could trace their families back to the first exile. And yet, they lost everything...due to Muslim bigotry. 
> 
> *Jewish Genetics*
> 
> Excerpt:
> 
> *"Although the Ashkenazi (European) Jewish community separated from their Mediterranean ancestors some 1,200 years ago and lived among Central and Eastern European gentiles, their paternal gene pool still resembles that of other Jewish and Semitic groups originating in the Middle East.
> 
> A low rate of intermarriage between Diaspora Jews and local gentiles was the key reason for this continuity. Since the Jews first settled in Europe more than 50 generations ago, the intermarriage rate was estimated to be only about 0.5% in each generation.
> ...


You are shooting blanks because you don`t understand that we are not collectivists here. Genetics do not give you a claim to a piece of land. That is because genetic groups can not own land. Only induviduals can own land, after it being purchased by them or passed down onto them from a specific named ancestor. 

I couldn`t care less about the genetic makeup of the Jews. It is irrelevant for the point in hand. If the Zionists felt Palestine was their homeland they could have gone over there, bought land in voluntary transactions and proclaimed their authority on the land they had purchased and they would have had my support if conflict ensued.

Instead they laid claim to land they had not bought off and proceeded to ethnicaly cleanse everyone who wasn`t to their liking from it, seperating thosands of people from their rightful induvidual property. A named induvidual can not be rightfully evicted from his home based on a genetics study.

And yes Israel is an European implant in Orient. Israel is the project of Zionism and Zionism was developed in Europe, by intelectuals from Europe.

----------


## Sandra

> Ahh more ad hominems. Looking weak. There is really a scarcity of facts coming my way from my opponents.


You do realize that you're only linking to op ed's as sources, right?

----------


## Sandra

I don't remember God giving a damned thing to the "Jews" , he gave land to the "Hebrews" Elya, you're not addressing this. The Hebrews were the descendants of Jacob BTW.

----------


## acptulsa

> If someone ever tosses you out of your home, improves the place for 50 years while you press your claim in court, and then you are obliged to pass your claim on to your children, and you never relinquish said claim, I think you should just counsel your children to let them have the place already. To reclaim a home after 50 or more years of that person living there is unreasonable. There are such things as squatters rights you know.


Wait a minute.  You are saying there's justice in forcibly taking over a place, keeping the original and rightful owner away with the credible threat of death, and then claiming _squatters' rights?!?_  That's supposed to make it all right and just?

Throw someone out a gun point then pretend to be legitimate using squatters' rights.  That's funny.

----------


## LongStrangeTrip

What Israel is doing is Genocide. They are trying to exterminate a people.

YouTube - Palestinian boy vs tank

----------


## Dunedain

> They refuse to live in peace with Jews. What is your solution?


Liquidating Zionist assets worldwide and compensating the victims families would be a great place to begin.

----------


## Dunedain

> It's the home of the Jews.


Yeah, but the home was stolen and it's occupants abused, tortured, killed.  So it's time to turn it back over to the owners who have been objecting to the home being stolen for years.

----------


## Objectivist

> Yeah, but the home was stolen and it's occupants abused, tortured, killed.  So it's time to turn it back over to the owners who have been objecting to the home being stolen for years.


Actually the Jews were there keeping time and records well before anyone else. The Romans took over and the Jews scattered, the Arabs came along and kicked the Romans asses and then the Christians ran the Crusades and kicked the Arabs asses. Wasn't long before the the Arabs brought out the swords and sought revenge.

All you have to do is look at the calendars of the individual groups and it goes back to the Jews or Hebrews. Nothing was stolen when there is right to conquest. The Jews didn't attack the Arabs, the Jews bought cheap crappy land from them and unlike the Arabs, they developed it. What you have there is jealousy of achievement and ineptitude on the part of the Arabs for not developing anything but hatred for successful people.... the Jews.

----------


## Objectivist

> What Israel is doing is Genocide. They are trying to exterminate a people.
> 
> YouTube - Palestinian boy vs tank


That's funny, they own a postage stamp of land and are surrounded by one of the fastest breeding groups of humans on the planet.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I'd think trade would be a much better system.


I agree.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Yeah, but the home was stolen and it's occupants abused, tortured, killed.  So it's time to turn it back over to the owners who have been objecting to the home being stolen for years.


The original occupants are not the Arabs/Muslims. Just look at a timeline. There were not even Muslims when King David ran the place. So, what is it, the lastest thief is the rightful occupant and the original owner has no right to reclaim their property??

----------


## Objectivist

> The original occupants are not the Arabs/Muslims. Just look at a timeline. There were not even Muslims when King David ran the place. So, what is it, the lastest thief is the rightful occupant and the original owner has no right to reclaim their property??


The calendar of Islam is only 1430 years. the Hebrew calendar is 5769.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> You are shooting blanks because you don`t understand that we are not collectivists here. Genetics do not give you a claim to a piece of land. That is because genetic groups can not own land. Only induviduals can own land, after it being purchased by them or passed down onto them from a specific named ancestor.


Genetics is just one piece of the puzzle, certainly not the most important part of the puzzle, because Judaism does not focus on "race" it focuses on the practice of the religion of Judaism. Egyptians left with the Israelites. If they believed in the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and were willing to accept the oath all Jews take, then they were a part of Israel. The Ger Tzedek in an honored member of the Jewish people. Genetics is not the final word. It's just another interesting part of the story. Other more significant elements are history, culture, literature, religious heritage, geography, migration records, archeology, (even the Quran admits as much) -- all of the evidence converges together, points heavily in the direction of the Jewish people, who have overwhelmingly been proven to be of Middle Eastern ancestry, cousins of the people in the region -- being indigenous to the region, the original occupants of the land, with a far superior claim than any of the other subsequent conquerors, usurpers.




> And yes Israel is an European implant in Orient. Israel is the project of Zionism and Zionism was developed in Europe, by intelectuals from Europe.


The idea behind Zionism is as old as the Jewish people. Abraham was called by HKB"H to leave his family and go to the Land that would be shown to him. The term "Zionism" is just an abbreviation for the Land of Israel. Our songs have sung about Zion since the Babylonian exile, long before Islam ever came on the scene, and we will be singing for, longing for and settling our Land long after Islam fades from the pages of history.

----------


## Sandra

> Genetics is just one piece of the puzzle, certainly not the most important part of the puzzle, because Judaism does not focus on "race" it focuses on the practice of the religion of Judaism. Egyptians left with the Israelites. If they believed in the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and were willing to accept the oath all Jews take, then they were a part of Israel. The Ger Tzedek in an honored member of the Jewish people. Genetics is not the final word. It's just another interesting part of the story. Other more significant elements are history, culture, literature, religious heritage, geography, migration records, archeology, (even the Quran admits as much) -- all of the evidence converges together, points heavily in the direction of the Jewish people, who have overwhelmingly been proven to be of Middle Eastern ancestry, cousins of the people in the region -- being indigenous to the region, the original occupants of the land, with a far superior claim than any of the other subsequent conquerors, usurpers.
> 
> 
> 
> The idea behind Zionism is as old as the Jewish people. Abraham was called by HKB"H to leave his family and go to the Land that would be shown to him. The term "Zionism" is just an abbreviation for the Land of Israel. Our songs have sung about Zion since the Babylonian exile, long before Islam ever came on the scene, and we will be singing for, longing for and settling our Land long after Islam fades from the pages of history.


You speak like an neo evangelical. No Jew would say what you say. Your facts on Judaism are so shamefully bogus. Are you from Ft Worth by any chance?

----------


## revolutionisnow

So what other people have a right to reclaim supposed stolen land? Is there a website where people can check and see if they are entitled to anything, you know like they have for tax refunds and such? What about African Americans? What is your opinion on reparations? Should they be entitled to the entire continent that they were removed from?

----------


## Sandra

ElyaKatz is posting  the same big bunch of crap that John Hagee preaches at his church

----------


## ElyaKatz

> You speak like an neo evangelical. No Jew would say what you say. Your facts on Judaism are so shamefully bogus. Are you from Ft Worth by any chance?


Try and be specific. What "facts on Judaism" are you referring to exactly??

----------


## Dr.3D

> You speak like an neo evangelical. No Jew would say what you say. Your facts on Judaism are so shamefully bogus. Are you from Ft Worth by any chance?


From my studies on Judaism, he seems to be spot on.  What facts do you specifically find inaccurate?

----------


## Sandra

> Over half of the Jewish population presently living in Israel came from Arab lands, many thrown out of their homes, forced to arrive in Israel with only the clothes on their backs. Several of these Jewish communities in Arab/Muslim nations could trace their families back to the first exile. And yet, they lost everything...due to Muslim bigotry. 
> 
> *Jewish Genetics*
> 
> Excerpt:
> 
> *"Although the Ashkenazi (European) Jewish community separated from their Mediterranean ancestors some 1,200 years ago and lived among Central and Eastern European gentiles, their paternal gene pool still resembles that of other Jewish and Semitic groups originating in the Middle East.
> 
> A low rate of intermarriage between Diaspora Jews and local gentiles was the key reason for this continuity. Since the Jews first settled in Europe more than 50 generations ago, the intermarriage rate was estimated to be only about 0.5% in each generation.
> ...


You posted this piece of crap op ed from this site:

http://www.simpletoremember.com/arti...wish-genetics/

----------


## Bman

> original owner


Is dead, and has been for thousands of years,  they no longer have a say.

----------


## Dr.3D

> You posted this piece of crap op ed from this site:
> 
> http://www.simpletoremember.com/arti...wish-genetics/


And if you click on *Jewish Genetics* in that "piece of crap", it takes you right to that site.  I don't understand what  find objectionable about it.

----------


## Dunedain

> The original occupants are not the Arabs/Muslims. Just look at a timeline. There were not even Muslims when King David ran the place. So, what is it, the lastest thief is the rightful occupant and the original owner has no right to reclaim their property??


White European Jews never had an ancestor that ever set a toe in the holy land.  They are eastern Europeans that converted to Jew-day-ism the same as many Korean's convereted to Christianity.  Are Korean's the decendents of the original Jewish Christians?  Of course not.  The Christian Palestinians have a claim to Palestine...not you or some Jewish Supremacists that moved in after the treaty of Versille at the end of WWI.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Is dead, and has been for thousands of years,  they no longer have a say.


Ownership of property is inherited by the children unless otherwise specifically stated. If this is the case individually, it is certainly the case nationally, even moreso.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> White European Jews never had an ancestor that ever set a toe in the holy land.  They are eastern Europeans that converted to Jew-day-ism the same as many Korean's convereted to Christianity.  Are Korean's the decendents of the original Jewish Christians?  Of course not.  The Christian Palestinians have a claim to Palestine...not you or some Jewish Supremacists that moved in after the treaty of Versille at the end of WWI.


You've clearly never been to Israel to see how many Israelis look very much like their Arab cousins. How do you think Arabs can disguise themselves as Orthodox Jews in order to murder them more easily?

----------


## Bman

> Ownership of property is inherited by the children unless otherwise specifically stated. If this is the case individually, it is certainly the case nationally, even moreso.


I take it you have a written will, with eye witnesses?  I'm not saying you cannot call it yours, sure by all means, and yeah sure kill everyone who gets in the way, just do not expect sympathy.

BTW, if I DNA test for the area are you going to repect my property over there?

----------


## revolutionisnow

> You've clearly never been to Israel to see how many Israelis look very much like their Arab cousins. How do you think Arabs can disguise themselves as Orthodox Jews in order to murder them more easily?


So if they supposedly look so much alike as you say, why isn't the land theirs also? Why not let Arabs from all over the Middle East immigrate there, since it was stolen from their ancestors also?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> From my studies on Judaism, he seems to be spot on.  What facts do you specifically find inaccurate?


My guess is, Sandra's experience with the Jewish community is limited to liberal, humanist Jews, not with the observant community. And the observant community is very similar in values with more conservative Christians. Witness the cooperation of *R' Daniel Lapin* and Dr. James Dobson, with his organization "Toward Tradition". Most traditional Jews are conservative politically, listen to conservative talk radio, endorsed John McCain. I didn't think either candidate would be good for Israel, thought Ron Paul was the best choice. 

From what I can gather, Sandra associates Judaism with the ACLU, AIPAC, the ADL. Understandable since traditional Jews are a decided minority in America. There are values that Jews can and do endorse, but that doesn't make them Jewish values.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> So if they supposedly look so much alike as you say, why isn't the land theirs also? Why not let Arabs from all over the Middle East immigrate there, since it was stolen from their ancestors also?


Because property ownership doesn't go according to looks, it follows proof of ownership. Just because my cousin on my mother's side looks like me doesn't prove she owns my house. How is this so difficult to understand?? 

I made my point on how similar Israeli Jews and the Arab population look in order to demonstrate that Jews are not European plants in the Middle East, in spite of the fact that many of us have been living in Europe for a number of years. There are Arabs in Sweden. If they want to return to Saudi Arabia or wherever they were born, they can do so. We have always wanted to return to Eretz Israel, and demonstrated that will many, many times. There was a massive movement to return to Israel under Shabtai Tsvi, in the 1500's. But then, as now, the nations have done much to prevent it.

The majority of Jews from around the world have Middle Eastern ancestry, if not completely, partially. As many Muslims/Arabs have mixed ancestry, perhaps more, since the bar set for becoming Muslim is much lower than the one for becoming Jewish. 

The Jewish people are exactly what we claim to be. The original holders and residents of the Land of Israel (G-d is the owner), of largely Middle Eastern descent. We've been in exile from that Land, many but not all of Jews were driven off that land by Arab/Muslim militant settlers/marauders, starting in the mid 600's. And now we are returning home. 

If that ticks you off, well, we have returned, we are returning and we will return anyway.

----------


## revolutionisnow

I think its telling that you decide who to vote for on "if they are good for Israel or the Jewish people". That is exactly the problem.

----------


## Dr.3D

> I think its telling that you decide who to vote for on "if they are good for Israel or the Jewish people". That is exactly the problem.


And by this statement, are you inferring Ron Paul is or isn't good for Israel?

----------


## Flash

> Jewish Genetics
> 
> Excerpt:
> 
> "Although the Ashkenazi (European) Jewish community separated from their Mediterranean ancestors some 1,200 years ago and lived among Central and Eastern European gentiles, their paternal gene pool still resembles that of other Jewish and Semitic groups originating in the Middle East.
> 
> A low rate of intermarriage between Diaspora Jews and local gentiles was the key reason for this continuity. Since the Jews first settled in Europe more than 50 generations ago, the intermarriage rate was estimated to be only about 0.5% in each generation.
> 
> The Ashkenazi paternal gene pool does not appear to be similar to that of present-day Turkish speakers. This finding opposes the suggestion that Ashkenazim are descended from the Kuzars, a Turkish-Asian empire that converted to Judaism en masse in or about the 8th century CE."



This is what I'm talking about-- all these sites that are claiming Ashkenazis are descendents of the Isrealites are FALSE. There is no such thing as a Semitic gene, Semite is a term only used to people who *speak a Semitic language*.

As for the European thing-- Ashkenazis are most definently closely related to Europeans & Khazars. Like I said in the past they are Alpine, Nordic, & Meds. They aren't Middle Eastern.

----------


## revolutionisnow

> And by this statement, are you inferring Ron Paul is or isn't good for Israel?

----------


## Dr.3D

> 


I fail to see your logic.  Either you see Ron Paul as being good for Israel or you see him as being bad for Israel.

Myself, I see him as being good for Israel.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I take it you have a written will, with eye witnesses?  I'm not saying you cannot call it yours, sure by all means, and yeah sure kill everyone who gets in the way, just do not expect sympathy.
> 
> BTW, if I DNA test for the area are you going to repect my property over there?


DNA is something that demonstrates a few things. It might demonstrate paternity for instance, and that definitely could affect inheritance. DNA is not the sum total or even the most important part of the argument in favor of Jewish control of the Land of Israel, since some are Jews by choice (conversion). The comparison would be to an adopted child, who can legally inherit his father's property.

There are written documents and eyewitness reports of the fact that the Jewish people lived in Israel under a commonwealth since time immemorial in the histories of many peoples, the Hebrew Bible, the Christian Bible, Josephus, the Quran, archeology...it's all over the place, beyond question. There is not a complete parallel between individual ownership and community ownership. And just as Native Americans often had a communal view of property, so do Jews. Not every nation has to follow the American model regarding property. 

The Land of Israel is communal property leased to the Jewish people by G-d in perpetuity, for the purpose of performing His commandments on that Land. We earn our right to live in Eretz Israel not from any other nation, not with your permission or that of the UN, but from the Torah, which was recieved by the Jewish people on Mount Sinai, in the presence of an estimated 2 million witnesses. The testimony of three witnesses establishes evidence in a court of law. That evidence stands for the record for future generations. 

Were you there when the Declaration of Independence and the US constitution were written?? No? Then how do you know these events happened? Maybe the constitution is a forgery? Why do you accept it as fact and how do you claim your rights as an American under that constitution, since the original witnesses to the signing of these documents are long dead?? Is the testimony of the founding fathers of America going to carry less weight, if by some miracle, America lasts for 2,000 or 3,000 years???

----------


## revolutionisnow

Honestly I couldn't care less if he is good or bad for Israel. I don't care if he is good or bad for South Africa or Germany either. I make my voting decisions on what are best for THIS country. What an absurd idea huh?

----------


## Dr.3D

> Honestly I couldn't care less if he is good or bad for Israel. I don't care if he is good or bad for South Africa or Germany either. I make my voting decisions on what are best for THIS country. What an absurd idea huh?


Not so absurd.... that is exactly how I decide who to vote for as well.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I think its telling that you decide who to vote for on "if they are good for Israel or the Jewish people". That is exactly the problem.


It's a free country. If you have a problem with my political priorities, then work to outlaw them. I consider many priorities. As I have stated, I believe that this country is doomed if it decides to turn against the Jewish people. I didn't make the rules, but history certainly does clarify what they are.

----------


## revolutionisnow

> The Land of Israel is communal property leased to the Jewish people by G-d in perpetuity, for the purpose of performing His commandments on that Land. We earn our right to live in Eretz Israel not from any other nation, not with your permission or that of the UN, but from the Torah, which was recieved by the Jewish people on Mount Sinai, in the presence of an estimated 2 million witnesses. The testimony of three witnesses establishes evidence in a court of law.[/FONT]


The land was given to the various bloodlines of people. It wasn't given to the people based on their religion! Judahites are not the same thing as Jews. And kinda sorta doesn't count. Also, where do you think the other tribes are today? Why are they not entitled to their land also? I don't even know why I'm having this argument over vile racist fairy tales. I'm glad more people are waking up every day to what nonsense the Jewish claim to Palestine is.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Honestly I couldn't care less if he is good or bad for Israel. I don't care if he is good or bad for South Africa or Germany either. I make my voting decisions on what are best for THIS country. What an absurd idea huh?


All nations that have sought to damage the children of Israel (pick your term, we've gathered a lot of nicknames over the years) has itself lost it's position in history. Pick the nation that set it sights on ruining the Jewish people, and you will see that ruination came to that nation. 

I don't want to see the ruination of America. I already know Israel will be fine. Might go through some tough times, but Israel will come out fine in the end. Our choice is whether we cooperate with the Almigihty in His agenda or not. That determines our future, as individuals and as a nation. It does not determine Israel's. 

Following that logic, I consider it my patriotic duty to do what I can to encourage America and Israel to remain friends. John McCain was as convinced that the Jews of Judea and Samaria had to give up their homes as is Obama. I don't think US foreign aid to any nation is appropriate or constitutional and certainly does not help anyone.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> This is what I'm talking about-- all these sites that are claiming Ashkenazis are descendents of the Isrealites are FALSE. There is no such thing as a Semitic gene, Semite is a term only used to people who *speak a Semitic language*.
> 
> As for the European thing-- Ashkenazis are most definently closely related to Europeans & Khazars. Like I said in the past they are Alpine, Nordic, & Meds. They aren't Middle Eastern.


Prove your claim. 

My argument is not centered on genetics, so it doesn't stand or fall on it.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> The land was given to the various bloodlines of people. It wasn't given to the people based on their religion! Judahites are not the same thing as Jews. And kinda sorta doesn't count. Also, where do you think the other tribes are today? Why are they not entitled to their land also? I don't even know why I'm having this argument over vile racist fairy tales. I'm glad more people are waking up every day to what nonsense the Jewish claim to Palestine is.


Sigh. Okay, I will say this once again. In the case of a stolen national home, there are two conditions requisite for the plaintiff/claimant to be able to reclaim said national home.

1) They must not relinquish their claim to said national home.

2) The people who's national home was stolen must still exist.

If these two conditions exist, there is no statute of limitations on the claim.

So, if at some point, the Ten Lost Tribes reappear on the pages of history and can prove who they are, then by all means, they will be able to claim their stolen national home. 

This is one reason the Canaanites can't press any claim to the Land of Israel. They gave up their claim, and lost their national identity through assimilation.

----------


## Bman

> The Land of Israel is communal property leased to the Jewish people by G-d [/FONT]


I told you he changed his mind and gave it all to me.  Anyone packing their bags yet?

----------


## revolutionisnow

> All nations that have sought to damage the children of Israel (pick your term, we've gathered a lot of nicknames over the years) has itself lost it's position in history. Pick the nation that set it sights on ruining the Jewish people, and you will see that ruination came to that nation. 
> 
> I don't want to see the ruination of America. I already know Israel will be fine. Might go through some tough times, but Israel will come out fine in the end. Our choice is whether we cooperate with the Almigihty in His agenda or not. That determines our future, as individuals and as a nation. It does not determine Israel's. 
> 
> Following that logic, I consider it my patriotic duty to do what I can to encourage America and Israel to remain friends. John McCain was as convinced that the Jews of Judea and Samaria had to give up their homes as is Obama. I don't think US foreign aid to any nation is appropriate or constitutional and certainly does not help anyone.


Yeah, I'm fairly certain its the other way around. Countries allow them in and support them, but eventually enough is enough. They have been expelled over 100 times. Fairly certain it wasn't because they were being beneficial. The USA was doing pretty well before they started supporting Israel also.

----------


## ElyaKatz

BS"D

In addition to the conditions I've set forth in order for a legitimate legal claim to a stolen national homeland, the Jewish Virtual Library has an enlightening article on the topic. I won't be shocked if some participants in this thread dismiss the article simply due to my source.

*The Jewish Claim To The Land Of Israel*

*"A common misperception is that the Jews were forced into the diaspora by the Romans after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem in the year 70 A.D. and then, 1,800 years later, suddenly returned to Palestine demanding their country back. In reality, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3,700 years. A national language and a distinct civilization have been maintained.

The Jewish people base their claim to the land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham; 2) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 3) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people and 4) the territory was captured in defensive wars.

The term "Palestine" is believed to be derived from the Philistines, an Aegean people who, in the 12th Century B.C., settled along the Mediterranean coastal plain of what is now Israel and the Gaza Strip. In the second century A.D., after crushing the last Jewish revolt, the Romans first applied the name Palaestina to Judea (the southern portion of what is now called the West Bank) in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word "Filastin" is derived from this Latin name.

The Twelve Tribes of Israel formed the first constitutional monarchy in Palestine about 1000 B.C. The second king, David, first made Jerusalem the nation's capital. Although eventually Palestine was split into two separate kingdoms, Jewish independence there lasted for 212 years. This is almost as long as Americans have enjoyed independence in what has become known as the United States.

Even after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem and the beginning of the exile, Jewish life in Palestine continued and often flourished. Large communities were reestablished in Jerusalem and Tiberias by the ninth century. In the 11th century, Jewish communities grew in Rafah, Gaza, Ashkelon, Jaffa and Caesarea.

Many Jews were massacred by the Crusaders during the 12th century, but the community rebounded in the next two centuries as large numbers of rabbis and Jewish pilgrims immigrated to Jerusalem and the Galilee. Prominent rabbis established communities in Safed, Jerusalem and elsewhere during the next 300 years. By the early 19th century-years before the birth of the modern Zionist movement-more than 10,000 Jews lived throughout what is today Israel.

When Jews began to immigrate to Palestine in large numbers in 1882, fewer than 250,000 Arabs lived there, and the majority of them had arrived in recent decades. Palestine was never an exclusively Arab country, although Arabic gradually became the language of most the population after the Muslim invasions of the seventh century. No independent Arab or Palestinian state ever existed in Palestine. When the distinguished Arab-American historian, Princeton University Prof. Philip Hitti, testified against partition before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, he said: "There is no such thing as 'Palestine' in history, absolutely not." In fact, Palestine is never explicitly mentioned in the Koran, rather it is called "the holy land" (al-Arad al-Muqaddash).

Prior to partition, Palestinian Arabs did not view themselves as having a separate identity. When the First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations met in Jerusalem in February 1919 to choose Palestinian representatives for the Paris Peace Conference, the following resolution was adopted:

We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds.

In 1937, a local Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, told the Peel Commission, which ultimately suggested the partition of Palestine: "There is no such country [as Palestine]! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria."

The representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations submitted a statement to the General Assembly in May 1947 that said "Palestine was part of the Province of Syria" and that, "politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political entity." A few years later, Ahmed Shuqeiri, later the chairman of the PLO, told the Security Council: "It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."

Palestinian Arab nationalism is largely a post-World War I phenomenon that did not become a significant political movement until after the 1967 Six-Day War and Israel's capture of the West Bank.

Israel's international "birth certificate" was validated by the promise of the Bible; uninterrupted Jewish settlement from the time of Joshua onward; the Balfour Declaration of 1917; the League of Nations Mandate, which incorporated the Balfour Declaration; the United Nations partition resolution of 1947; Israel's admission to the UN in 1949; the recognition of Israel by most other states; and, most of all, the society created by Israel's people in decades of thriving, dynamic national existence."*

The other piece of the puzzle as to whether a given people actually had a national home, subsequently stolen, must be answered by the question: Was there a separate and distinct people, with a separate culture, jurisprudence and language, attached to a specific geographic location?? This is easily demonstrated in the case of the Jewish people. Furthermore, unlike any other dispossessed people in history, we exist. We have demonstrated continued, persistent aspirations to re-establish ourselves in our national homeland throughout history. Judaism is different than all other religions, in that a concrete attachment of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel is a central tenet.

----------


## dannno

> So, if at some point, the Ten Lost Tribes reappear on the pages of history and can prove who they are, then by all means, they will be able to claim their stolen national home.


You're going to have a really hard time justifying that position on reparations around here... especially since half the people here think that the book you are using as evidence is made up.. 
But either way, you still want to steal from group A to give to group B based on something their ancestors did.  I have to say, sounds pretty racist.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> You're going to have a really hard time justifying that position on reparations around here... especially since half the people here think that the book you are using as evidence is made up.. 
> But either way, you still want to steal from group A to give to group B based on something their ancestors did.  I have to say, sounds pretty racist.


I never used the word reparations. If one is discussing a legal issue, and this is indeed a legal issue on a national scale, one must be much more precise with language. Words count in law.

Judaism is not a race. Any Muslim can convert and become a Jew. Some have, and are very loyal Jews.

Fortunately, the Jewish people aren't required to prove whether or not the Scriptures are true to you or anyone else. As far as evidence, did you read the post?? I did not cite only the Hebrew Scriptures as evidence. History alone is evidence. Scratch the dirt in Israel, and you will find coins and pottery with Aramaic/Hebrew inscriptions, mosaic floors that reveal destroyed synagogues, ancient Jewish cemeteries, Jewish ossuaries...all over the place. It's not possible to destroy the evidence of widespread Jewish civilization in Eretz Israel, from antiquity to now. One would have to dig up every part of the Land from end to end, going down meters and meters to destroy the evidence, and even then, it would not be possible.

Whether you believe in any given set of Scriptures is immaterial to the conflict, because both parties do believe in them.

----------


## TortoiseDream

my favorite palestinian:

YouTube - charlemagne palestine live

strum forever

----------


## tonesforjonesbones

Ancient lost capital of the Jewish Khazar kingdom found  

By The Associated Press  

Tags: Judaism, Russia, Khazars  

Russian archaeologists said Wednesday they had found the long-lost capital of the Khazar kingdom in southern Russia, a breakthrough for research on the ancient Jewish state. 

"This is a hugely important discovery," expedition organiser Dmitry Vasilyev told AFP by telephone from Astrakhan State University after returning from excavations near the village of Samosdelka, just north of the Caspian Sea. 
 Advertisement 

"We can now shed light on one of the most intriguing mysteries of that period -- how the Khazars actually lived. We know very little about the Khazars -- about their traditions, their funerary rites, their culture," he said. 

The city was the capital of the Khazars, a semi-nomadic Turkic peoples who adopted Judaism as a state religion, from between the 8th and the 10th centuries, when it was captured and sacked by the rulers of ancient Russia. 

At its height, the Khazar state and its tributaries controlled much of what is now southern Russia, western Kazakhstan, eastern Ukraine, Azerbaijan and large parts of Russia's North Caucasus region. 

The capital is referred to as Itil in Arab chronicles but Vasilyev said the word may actually have been used to refer to the Volga River on which the city was founded or to the surrounding river delta region. 

Itil was said to be a multi-ethnic place with houses of worship and judges for Christians, Jews, Muslims and pagans. Its remains have until now never been identified and were said to have been washed away by the Caspian Sea. 

Archaeologists have been excavating in the area if Samosdelka for the past nine years but have only now collected enough material evidence to back their thesis, including the remains of an ancient brick fortress, he added. 

"Within the fortress, we have found huts similar to yurts, which are characteristics of Khazar cities.... The fortress had a triangular shape and was made with bricks. It's another argument that this was no ordinary city." 

Around 10 university archaeologists and some 50 students took part in excavations in the region this summer, which are partly financed by the Jewish University in Moscow and the Russian Jewish Congress  


Get Haaretz news headlines

----------


## ElyaKatz

> my favorite palestinian:
> 
> strum forever


Well, that's closer to the thread topic at least, but that was the most boring video I've watched in a long time. I think this was a case of "you had to be there".

----------


## TortoiseDream

> Well, that's closer to the thread topic at least, but that was the most boring video I've watched in a long time. I think this was a case of "you had to be there".


Well I don't like it for the image, I like it for the music. It's lo-fi on youtube, but the point of his music is to bring out resonance frequencies in his instrument. It's a little hard to explain, but an adequate simplification would that his music makes a piano sound like a sitar.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I told you he changed his mind and gave it all to me.  Anyone packing their bags yet?


Do you equal the testimony of 2 million eyewitnesses? Does one the testimony of one man count as definitive evidence in a court of law in cases of this import, or in any case at all?

----------


## Bman

> Do you equal the testimony of 2 million eyewitnesses? Does one the testimony of one man count as definitive evidence in a court of law in cases of this import, or in any case at all?


DO you think that means anything to god? Don't hate on the messenger.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> DO you think that means anything to god? Don't hate on the messenger.


Yes I do, because the eyewitness testimony of those 2 million pertained to what He expects of the Jewish people. As far as hating on the messenger, please provide quotes which indicate hatred on my part. I differ in opinion, and I am even-toned in my discourse. I hate no one.

No one here has countered any of my arguments in the base post of this thread with any evidence, no solid sources. There are misquotes, misattributed photos, misleadingly labeled videos, and hyperbole.

I certainly see no evidence either, of love for the Arabs in Eretz Israel. If there was, then there would be real concern over how they are treated by UNRWAl Fatah, Hamas and Hezbollah. I think only the Israelis understand how victimized these people are by these horrible entities. The message I see here is not pro-Arab...it is just anti-Israel.

There is enough room in the Land of Israel for both people. BUT, if the Arab leadership refuses to live in peace with the Jewish people, then there will be war, and all the risks of war, for both sides.

----------


## revolutionisnow

YouTube - He reveals the Truth about Zionists

----------


## Bman

> Yes I do, because the eyewitness testimony of those 2 million pertained to what He expects of the Jewish people. As far as hating on the messenger, please provide quotes which indicate hatred on my part. I differ in opinion, and I am even-toned in my discourse. I hate no one.
> 
> No one here has countered any of my arguments in the base post of this thread with any evidence. I certainly see no evidence either, of love for the Arabs in Eretz Israel. If there was, then there would be real concern over how they are treated by UNRWAl Fatah, Hamas and Hezbollah. I think only the Israelis understand how victimized these people are by these horrible entities. The message I see here is not pro-Arab...it is just anti-Israel.
> 
> There is enough room in the Land of Israel for both people. BUT, if the Arab leadership refuses to live in peace with the Jewish people, then there will be war.



Well based on some of the reponses I can see that, however the main story most here I would say accept is that we don't want America involved in the situation by any margin or percent.  You could really quickly make this area anti- Arab also if you were to demonstrate a money trail that is being used for conflict.

We are peaceful people and do not want to be invoved with anyone elses wars.  Sure it comes off strong around here on Israel but that's because of certain influence.  Like Nancy Pelosi pulling a bill becasue she said AIPAC didn't think the bill was a good idea.  That sort of thing doesn't sit well around here.  In the end most of us want to treat everyone the same.  That starts with ending foreign aid to everyone.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Well based on some of the reponses I can see that, however the main story most here I would say accept is that we don't want America involved in the situation by any margin or percent.  You could really quickly make this area anti- Arab also if you were to demonstrate a money trail that is being used for conflict.
> 
> We are peaceful people and do not want to be invoved with anyone elses wars.  Sure it comes off strong around here on Israel but that's because of certain influence.  Like Nancy Pelosi pulling a bill becasue she said AIPAC didn't think the bill was a good idea.  That sort of thing doesn't sit well around here.  In the end most of us want to treat everyone the same.  That starts with ending foreign aid to everyone.


I think your description of your own priorities is plausible for you, and for most of the membership here. I can't stand Pelosi or Rahm Emanuel's politics, and I doubt AIPAC does anything good for Israel or America.

However, there is a very active minority here who come to here to use it as a sounding board for the "Palestinian Propaganda" machine. This site and others like it who's raison d'etre is to support Ron Paul are in danger of being hijacked by such groups, and if they are, then those groups will use the good name of Ron Paul to push forward a completely different agenda than anything Dr. Paul ever had in mind.

That bothers me. And I'm out to expose it. I don't need this site to push my pro-Israel views. I am very, very happy at my blog.

----------


## Bman

> However, there is a very active minority here who come to here to use it as a sounding board for the "Palestinian Propaganda" machine.


A very small minority.  There are about 3 people I can think off the top of my head that may fit such a catergory.  There's probably about 5-10 others who are just straight out anti-semitic.

I just think the way you go about it is all wrong.  Rather than posting random acts of violence you need to paint a conspiracy.  That should work.

----------


## Objectivist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CanaanMap.jpg

----------


## Dunedain

...and coverts to Talmudism (Jew-Day-Ism)  have no claim to Palestine.  





> Ancient lost capital of the Jewish Khazar kingdom found  
> 
> By The Associated Press  
> 
> Tags: Judaism, Russia, Khazars  
> 
> Russian archaeologists said Wednesday they had found the long-lost capital of the Khazar kingdom in southern Russia, a breakthrough for research on the ancient Jewish state. 
> 
> "This is a hugely important discovery," expedition organiser Dmitry Vasilyev told AFP by telephone from Astrakhan State University after returning from excavations near the village of Samosdelka, just north of the Caspian Sea. 
> ...

----------


## ElyaKatz

> A very small minority.  There are about 3 people I can think off the top of my head that may fit such a catergory.  There's probably about 5-10 others who are just straight out anti-semitic.
> 
> I just think the way you go about it is all wrong.  Rather than posting random acts of violence you need to paint a conspiracy.  That should work.


I kept records for several days, and came up with 35 names. I still have the list.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> ...and coverts to Talmudism (Jew-Day-Ism)  have no claim to Palestine.


Says you. You have no say in who is defined as the progeny of the original landholders when the Jewish people held sovereignty.

The Oral Law, (the Talmud before it was written down) was in full operation in Judea/Samaria/Galilee before the Romans renamed it Palestine. The only group that would not adhere to it were the priests, who had allowed themselves to be corrupted by that time by the Romans. They were elitist, and very unpopular. The populist party were the Pharisees, who adhered to the Written and Oral Torah. The Pharisees were the patriots, being murdered on a daily basis by the Romans for their insistence on obedience to the dictates of the Torah, both written and oral, that Judea/Samaria and the Galilee were rightfully independent of Rome. 

In fact, the Jews were the only people in the Roman empire who persistently rebelled against Roman hegemony. Today, we find ourselves fighting a one world hegemony in the form of the Vatican/UN...with the Jewish people once more in the forefront of that battle, suffering anew with a corrupt, bought-out Jewish government which works against the interests of their own people. 

Americans are suffering from exactly the same problem.

----------


## Cowlesy

reopened

----------


## Danke

> I kept records for several days, and came up with 35 names. I still have the list.


Did you assign the five-digit IBM Hollerith number to them too?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Did you assign the five-digit IBM Hollerith number to them too?


Most of your responses when debating me are ad hominems. Why? I have refuted points here with specific facts. One notable example, the photos on post #34 by LATruth implied that IDF soldiers oppress little kids. My response post described the situation. No replies from my ideological opponents. Hm.

*ElyaKatz Post #70

These two photos are of a 14 year old boy who had been paid NIS 100 by fellow Arab men (about $20-30 depending on the exchange rate at the time) to strap a suicide bomb belt to his waist. "A Tanzim cell from the Balata refugee camp in Nablus claimed responsibility for sending the boy." The story can be found here, and probably at other sites as well:

14-year-old suicide bomber intercepted

The Israeli soldiers were actually very gentle with him. I had Israeli satellite TV at the time and watched the entire episode from start to finish. I looked for Youtube videos of this episode, but they've been pulled. Anyway, it was very sad, and really upset the Israeli soldiers. Hamas and the Taliban have been reported to kidnap children for use as suicide bombers. You can see the sapper's robot sent to the boy with scissors so he could cut the bomb belt off. It is next to the boy on the lower right part of the top photo.*

No one has taken me on re whether or not a people before 1967 were actually the "palestinian people" and if so, based on what criteria. It's just the usual gang, using the hard left's strategy of negativity.

----------


## Danke

> Most of your responses are ad hominems. Why?


I'll bet I'm on your "list"

Since you continuely edit your post, here is my edit: "Most of your responses are ad hominems"  What the $#@! are you talking about?

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## ElyaKatz

> I'll bet I'm on your "list"


I'm not going to reveal the identities of the list publicly. I would only do that, if I had taken the time to do an extensive, exhaustive survey. Then I might post it at my blog, assuming I wouldn't be violating at Terms of Use, but I don't see where that is beneficial to anyone. 

It was mostly for my own information. It was not an exhaustive list, only put together over a period of several days. I did not do a complete survey of each member and how they posted concerning Israel vs the Arab world. If I had, some members might have been added and others removed. Like I said, it was only for my own information, as several people claimed something to the effect that there were only a handful of members here who were actively and stridently pro-Palistinian. It's more than a few, and some might be different handles with the same IP address. Only the moderators would know that. Given the huge membership here, the percentage of members who's agenda in being here is at least partially to be a bullhorn for the Palis is probably very small. They are very active.

Like I said, my agenda for now, is to balance the scales. I'm guessing this forum has a "silent majority" who are more reasonable, but don't feel like taking these members on, as it's pretty futile, like beating one's head against a brick wall.

I'm not attempting to change these particular members minds. My only intention is to write about the other side of the story.

----------


## Danke

> I'm not going to reveal the identities of the list publicly. It was *mostly* for my own information.


"Mostly" Got it.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Did you assign the five-digit IBM Hollerith number to them too?


I am talking about this comment. It has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, or any real issues at hand on this thread. It is only meant to cast aspersions on me as a person. That is called an "ad hominem" attack. Look it up. 

ad hominem: "appealing to personal considerations (rather than to fact or reason); "ad hominem arguments"

Trying to win points by ridiculing the fact that I am in the midst of editing is also a way to avoid the issues. You have no idea what I am dealing with on my end of the computer...how many kids might be jumping off my shoulder while I'm trying to put this together....or maybe I have eyesight problems....what's the point in bringing that up?

To indulge in such argumentation only works with people who don't know how to debate an issue based on the facts of a case, or who don't want to, for whatever reason. With people who do know how to debate based on facts and reason, those who indulge in ad hominems lose credibility.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> "Mostly" Got it.


I make a habit of not hemming myself with commitments I might not want to keep in the future. I also said I don't see anything beneficial in publishing a list, even on my own blog, assuming I would not be violating any Terms of Use at this site.

Danke, if you didn't want people to know what you believe, then why are you posting it on the internet?? Surely, you must be aware of the fact that people can quantify the content of your posts if they wanted to. 

Why so worried about my little itty bitty list?? I was doing it via challenging the claim that only a handful of people here are on the pro-Pali bandwagon. I'm not from the Mossad...yet.

----------


## Danke

> I am talking about this comment. It has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, or any real issues at hand on this thread. It is only meant to cast aspersions on me as a person. That is called an "ad hominem" attack. Look it up. 
> 
> ad hominem: "appealing to personal considerations (rather than to fact or reason); "ad hominem arguments"
> 
> Trying to win points by ridiculing the fact that I am in the midst of editing is also a way to avoid the issues. You have no idea what I am dealing with on my end of the computer...how many kids might be jumping off my shoulder while I'm trying to put this together....or maybe I have eyesight problems....what's the point in bringing that up?
> 
> To indulge in such argumentation only works with people who don't know how to debate an issue based on the facts of a case, or who don't want to, for whatever reason. With people who do know how to debate based on facts and reason, those who indulge in ad hominems lose credibility.


You said Most of my responses.   And you gave one example.  

Idiot.  There, that gives you two.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> You said Most of my responses.   And you gave one example.  
> 
> Idiot.  There, that gives you two.


I corrected that post. It seems to me most of your responses re the issue of Israel vs the Arab world are loaded with innuendos and personal attacks, light on fact from reliable sources. I haven't done a survey, but it would be interesting wouldn't it. That's just the impression I get when you enter a debate with me on this subject.

Re calling me an idiot...continuing on the same path is entirely your decision, but it doesn't serve you well.

----------


## Flash

> ...and coverts to Talmudism (Jew-Day-Ism)  have no claim to Palestine.


Not only Khazars but it's possible that the ancestors of Ashkenazis are mixed with the Edomite people, which would explain the Middle Eastern bloodline. And more of an interesting mystery, it means the Israelite tribes are still out there waiting to be found.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> 85]Not only Khazars but it's possible that the ancestors of Ashkenazis are mixed with the Edomite people, which would explain the Middle Eastern bloodline. And more of an interesting mystery, it means the Israelite tribes are still out there waiting to be found.


It is soooo entertaining to watch as opponents to the Jewish people try to argue against their right to Eretz Israel first by calling them "racists" then by saying they're not really the rightful inheritors of the land because they're not the correct "race".

The entire idea behind Torah Judaism has never, ever been race. Judaism is a faith based nation/religion which is passed down (and can hence be lost) generationally. Additionally, one can join the nation/religion of Judaism by swearing an oath of allegiance to the G-d of Israel and the Jewish nation --- otherwise known as a conversion. Conversion papers can be likened to citizenship papers. If the conversion is sincere, then it is not revocable, and that citizenship is passed down...matrilinially. One who is born of a Jewish mother does not cease being Jewish by converting to another religion...though this halachah disagrees with the Israelis government's Law of Return. The Israeli government's opinion of halachah does not change halachah one iota.

There are advantages and disadvantages to becoming a permanent member of the Jewish people. For instance, if a convert at some point in the future decides he does not care to do the mitzvot any longer, he will be held accountable for his failure in this respect. It's nothing to mess with either. One is putting his soul in the hands of the awesome G-d of Heaven. If he had remained a gentile, then those mitzvot applying only to Jews, which he did not perform would not be held against him. One of those mitzvot is living in the Land of Israel.

One's tribal membership, and the right to serve as a priest is passed down patrilineally. The right to serve as priest (not tribe) can be lost through lack of observance.

Gentiles stating that these and other rules not delineated here in this brief post, developed with the permission of the Almighty (parsha Shoftim) as recorded in the Torah, are not legitimate is as relevant as non-Catholics telling Catholics their rules do not define who is and who is not a Catholic, or non-Americans telling Americans their immigration laws are do not confer American citizenship on the immigrant who successfully applies and completes the process. 

Sorry. In each case, respectively, if you are not a member of the given community, you surely can hold your opinion, but it is immaterial. When a gentile approaches the Jewish community courteously, with a view to learning, and if their sincerity is understood, he will typically be treated with respect and kindness. The challenges can be met with answers, but Torah Judaism does not change because of what gentiles think of it.

Now, back to the topic at hand...this thread is over 160 posts hijacked...who can prove that there existed a "palestinian people" with a separate language and culture prior to 1967?

----------


## revolutionisnow

Please quote the passage where it says people are awarded the land based on their religion. And why do people need to have a separate language to be a culture or people? Doesn't most of South America share the same language and culture?

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## Dr.3D

> Please quote the passage where it says people are awarded the land based on their religion. And why do people need to have a separate language to be a culture or people? Doesn't most of South America share the same language and culture?


Well, just off the top of my head, I would cite the book of Numbers Chapter 34.

Elya might have something else in mind though.

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## ElyaKatz

> Please quote the passage where it says people are awarded the land based on their religion. And why do people need to have a separate language to be a culture or people? Doesn't most of South America share the same language and culture?


How is it that people are awarded land simply on the basis of conquering it? So, the Arabs conquered the Land of Israel in 636. That's yesterday in the history of both peoples, for one thing. The mere right of might has been disputed many times. Just because Israel was conquered by a succession of nations does not mean we gave up our right to live in our own land unimpeded by outside nations. 

Re "the passage" please be more specific. Quote a passage from what book?? 

Re South America, that's a whole 'nuther can of worms. The Americas are probably not the best example to use in comparison to ancient nations, such as Israel, France, Spain, Germany, Poland, Russia, China, Japan etc (to name a few). There are some things that might be applicable to Israel's situation, but there is also a lot that is simply not applicable.

The whole "palestinian people" creation was cooked up by Yasir Arafat and other PR agents for the Arab world sometime around 1967, and quotes can be found admitting as much. I've posted them at my blog and on this site. They created this mythological people, who are really simply Arabs, in order to compete with the Jewish people in the battlefield of world opinion, because they knew they couldn't win militarily. Furthermore, these people can't tolerate Jewish or Christian sovereigty in one square centimeter of the Middle East, because they are either Pan-Arabists (secular), or Islamic supremacists (religious). As far as such people are concerned, Jews can live miserably subjugated lives in the Middle East as dhimmis, as can the Christians, but Arab/Islamic sensibilities will allow nothing more. That in turn, creates a need among Middle Eastern Christians and Jews to create legal protections for themselves, such as exists in a Christian or Jewish sovereign nation...in the cases of Lebanon and Israel respectively.

The Middle East is not the Middle West...the structures of societies in the Middle East must be different in some ways than the American model, if peoples of faiths other than Islam are to live there in safety and security.

You would do well to fight the battle to award Arabs in the rest of the Middle East more freedom. The Arabs in both the PA and under the government of Israel do much, much better than Arabs in any other nation in the Middle East.

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## angelatc

WTF does  any of this have to do with Ron Paul or America, other than we should stop sending Israel guns and money?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Well, just off the top of my head, I would cite the book of Numbers Chapter 34.
> 
> Elya might have something else in mind though.


Revolutionisnow needs to be more specific before I take him up on his challenge.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> WTF does  any of this have to do with Ron Paul or America, other than we should stop sending Israel guns and money?


This is the "Off Topic" forum. You'd have to read my base post to understand how some of this thread is relevant. But very few people at this thread are actually sticking to the topic, so it's understandably confusing.

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## angelatc

> This is the "Off Topic" forum. You'd have to read my base post to understand how some of this thread is relevant. But very few people at this thread are actually sticking to the topic, so it's understandably confusing.


Why is this even on this board, off topic or not?

I read enough of your first post to see that you don't believe the Palestinians exist, which means I think you're bat$#@! crazy, and therefore could not care less about what you deem relevant.

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## ElyaKatz

> Why is this even on this board, off topic or not?


I could ask the same thing of many posts on this site which are posted only to vilify and demonize Israel, Israelis, Jews, Judaism and venerated rabbis. If the beef was truly only the issue of foreign aid, the criticism wouldn't zero in on Israel as heavily as it does with some members.[/FONT]




> I read enough of your first post to see that you don't believe the Palestinians exist, which means I think you're bat$#@! crazy, and therefore could not care less about what you deem relevant.


If you don't appreciate this thread, then go visit something more to your liking. In several of my posts on this thread, including the first one, I stated that my current agenda is to balance the scales. I've received some pats on the back from several members in doing so. Apparently, I"m not alone.

There is a much higher percentage of irrelevant-to Ron-Paul anti-Israel posts at this site, posted by a very active minority of members. I think most Liberty Forest members are tired of them, and they give good men like Dr. Ron Paul a bad name.

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## revolutionisnow

So, what other games of "turn back the clocks of time" can we play? Do African Americans have the right to steal land in Egypt? What about whites in Australia, can they just head towards Rome and bulldoze a few houses and declare the land theirs? 

And WRONG on the numbers 34, that clearly talks about TRIBES. So that means if Arabs were a member of any of those tribes the land is theirs if we are using that as a legal binding contract. I can claim I am a member of Benjamin tribe also, so I have a right to some land and citizenship also, and I have just as much proof as you do. http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B04C034.htm

Theres No J in Hebrew, Greek or Latin so I don't know where you are getting all this nonsense about it being given to the "Jews".

----------


## ElyaKatz

> So, what other games of "turn back the clocks of time" can we play? Do African Americans have the right to steal land in Egypt? What about whites in Australia, can they just head towards Rome and bulldoze a few houses and declare the land theirs? 
> 
> And WRONG on the numbers 34, that clearly talks about TRIBES. So that means if Arabs were a member of any of those tribes the land is theirs if we are using that as a legal binding contract. I can claim I am a member of Benjamin tribe also, so I have a right to some land and citizenship also, and I have just as much proof as you do. http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B04C034.htm
> 
> There’s No “J” in Hebrew, Greek or Latin so I don't know where you are getting all this nonsense about it being given to the "Jews".


Okay. Have it your way. The Yehudim, or as the Arabs say, the Yahood. I was under the impression that this was an English language Forum, so I try to use the English equivalent terms most of the time. 

Re the bulldozing etc...it's not so simple as you know. First of all, things didn't happen in Israel the way you are implying. Second, there is a precedent for regaining stolen national homelands. The nation who has been thusly displaced must first, refuse to relinquish their claim or disappear. Check on both counts. Very unusual too. 

The example is Spain. The Spanish lost all but one itty bitty corner of their homeland in the northern mountains of Spain to the Muslims. I guess in spite of the Inquisition, the Spaniards and the Jews have some significant characterisitics in common. Chutzpah, determination and a long memory.

Americans can't see these disputes in their proper historical perspective, because Americans have only been a nation for a couple of hundred years. To Americans, 30 years is a long time. To Jews, Arabs, Spaniards, etc...600 years is yesterday. 1200 is the day before.

So, to answer your question, had the peoples you mentioned not relinquished their claims, then they would be within their rights to reclaim any stolen national homeland. And I would not be surprised if the Native Americans someday rise up. The treaties that were "signed" between the different tribes and the Federal government are not recognized as legal within many of the tribes.

So goes history.

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## revolutionisnow

So do Australians have the right to Rome or not? And can you rebut my claim that I am from the Benjamin tribe? And again, please quote the passage that says the land was given to them based on religion.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> "We must expel Arabs and take their places."
> -- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985....


Misquoting, or quoting out of context, the words of Jewish leaders is a a well-known strategy of the hard-left. 

Jared Israel discusses Benny Morris, for example: _"For years, Benny Morris fabricated ‘facts’ -- mistranslated passages so that, for example, Ben-Gurion seemed to be saying Arabs should be expelled when in fact he was saying they should not be expelled. Morris took statements out of context or left out parts of quotations so that Israeli leaders seemed to be calling for the harshest conduct, when they were in fact calling for the most humane conduct possible under the circumstances. He even fabricated evidence wholesale -- manufactured documents -- to make Israel look bad. This is proved in devastating detail by Efraim Karsh. One of Prof. Karsh’s best exposés is on the Internet. It is worth reading."_ *From Benny Morris:The Kiss That Kills* by Jared Israel.
*Benny Morris and the Reign of Error* by Efraim Karsh*Historical and Investigative Research* by Dr. Francisco Gil-White.*On the supposed ‘about face’ of some anti-Israeli historians (Benny Morris and Nathan Weinstock)* by Dr. Francisco Gil-White*More about Dr. White and his various publications*



> Nope. There's no problem with Israeli leadership and their policy of apartheid, is there?


I am not claiming there are no problems with Israeli leadership. Nobody is an angel in warfare. However, any words or actions against the Arab world by Jews, whether leaders or no, are dwarfed in comparison to what the Arab leadership and the average Arab man on the street openly advocates against the Jewish people, whether we choose to make our homes in Eretz Israel or anywhere else, whether individually or as a people.
*
One example among many:*

YouTube - Rape Them



> The two most shameful things about America's inception is the treatment of Native Americans and slavery. _And while I'm sure you're inspired by our history with the Native Americans,_ it's certainly nothing that anyone can ethically defend.


All you know of me is that I'm proud to be Jewish, that I defend Israel's right to defend herself, and that I appreciate Dr. Paul's views re the US constitution and the Federal Reserve. So why do you publicly humiliate yourself by making the following statement: _"And while I'm sure you're inspired by our history with the Native Americans..."_

I have never defended how the Native Americans have been treated by Americans and the US Government.

My contention is that if there is a parallel anywhere, the parallel exists between the Native Americans as victims of foreign conquerors and and the Jewish people, also as victims of foreign conquerors. There was recently a Native American chief that went to Israel to encourage the Israeli government to defend the Jewish people's land.




> The Native Americans did not have a fully-structured government or a particular name for America (that I know of), but I'm absolutely sure that they are Native *Americans*, despite the fact that an outside group gave them that name. I'm also absolutely sure that they are human beings who were greatly wronged.


Agreed. 

As far as the structure of governments, recognition of borders between nations etc. there are no parallels between either the Arab people or the Jewish people and the Native Americans. Both the Arab and Jewish world have had borders and structured governments, at least in recorded history, for a much longer time than the Native Americans, as both people have had written literatures and histories for hundreds and thousands of years respectively. 

The fact that there was no "nation" called Palestine or people called Palestinians makes the point that in an area where organized government did indeed exist, there was no government of "Palestine", nor did any people named the "Palestinians" seek independent sovereignty until it became obvious that such a strategy might be the only strategy available to wrest Jewish land away from the Jewish people, since a military victory was not forthcoming. The term "Palestine", imposed on the region by the Romans after the final destruction of Jerusalem, is a geographical term, not the name of any nation or people, and this by the Arab world's own admission. 
*
Zuheir Mohsen, as quoted in the Trouw, March 31, 1977:*

_"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism."_ These statements were later published in the Boston Herald.

King Abdullah Hussein, as well as his grandson, King Hussein bin Talal, and Prince Hassan of the Jordanian National Assembly, have all been quoted as making similar statements. 

Distinguished Arab-American Princeton University historian Philip Hitti testified before the *Anglo-American Committee*,_‘There is no such thing as ‘Palestine’ in history.’_

The region has been the Jewish homeland with Jewish government, institutions and borders for thousands of years. The fact that Eretz Israel had a fully functioning Jewish government which had been forcibly occupied by foreign powers does not confer upon those foreign powers the right of sovereignty. Nations have, from time to time, been occupied by foreigners, and have repulsed those occupiers. It is not the Arab nations who are occupied, but who have been occupiers of Jewish land (among others), and refuse to give up their occupation.

In this way, the Jewish people have found themselves in circumstances more closely resembling that of the Native Americans, with the Arabs, British, Turks, Byzantines, Persians, Romans, Greeks etc....taking the position of the Europeans who conquered the Americas, stealing Native American lands.




> If you want to justify theft with the bible, political structures or plain old BS, you'll do better with people who don't put such importance on individual sovereignty and property ownership. Why bring your Hasbara propaganda here?


You can treat the Bible as old wives tales if you like. But the fact is, as far as documentation of our history from the beginning of our nationhood goes, both good and bad, no people surpasses us. This works to our advantage and disadvantage. Were the various European nations to have such reliable documentation, we might be discussing whether or not the French have a right to France. All of Europe might be dismantled under the reasoning of those who would take Eretz Israel away from the Jewish people. And Americans of European descent would stand no chance whatsoever of retaining sovereignty of the Americas.

I am citing solid sources for my claims. I take the positions I choose because I am in favor of freedom and against fascism. Why do you support the PA aka the PLO, which was swallowed by al-Fatah, which was started by Haj Amin al-Husayni? (Yasir Arafat was his favorite protege.) Haj Amin al-Husayni was a close friend to Adolf Hitler and encouraged him to ratchet up his war against the Jewish people by changing his strategy to rid Europe of Jews by not merely deporting them, the original plan of the Nazis, but by murdering them all. 

Sources that prove this and other unsavory facts regarding the "Palestinian" leadership and movement are easy to find in many history books, as well as on the internet.

YouTube - Hitler, The Mufti Of Jerusalem And Modern Islamo Nazism
I can't see how such an organization, which claims to be the only legitimate representative of the so-called "Palestinian" people, regardless of its current politically correct name, (PLO/PA) has anything to do with the aspirations of legitimate American patriots. Accepting the Arab narrative on the history of the region; rejecting the Jewish narrative as illegitimate (your term was BS); by claiming that Israel is carrying out atrocities against "innocent" Arabs; and ignoring the right of the Jewish people who live in the region to defend themselves; taking these positions makes a mockery of the principles of liberty for which this country aspires to represent. 

Following is just one of many scholarly papers on the nefarious history of the PA/PLO/Al-Fatah.

*Understanding the Palestinian Movement*

----------


## lester1/2jr

Palestine before 1917


succinct summary of who the palestinian people are

----------


## amy31416

> [FONT="Book Antiqua"]Misquoting, or quoting out of context, the words of Jewish leaders is a a well-known strategy of the hard-left.


I see. And what, specifically, do you call it when you accuse a person of being "hard-left" rather than focus on the specific point? In fact, that accusation only makes you look more foolish, no matter how tiny you make your font.

In response to Ben Gurion's quote being "out of context," that's BS and you know it.

Here's just one article analyzing Gurion's statement:




> Nor should we take from Mr Ben Gurion's statement that the concept of Palestinian evacuation was confined to the years 1947 - 1948. The concept of transfer of the indigenous Arab population to make way for a Jewish state was intrinsic to the thinking of the Zionist leaders from its initial inception.
> 
> Thus Theodor Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, said in 1892:
> 
>     [We shall] spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly. 
> 
> And in 1937, Ben Gurion stated:
> 
>     The compulsory transfer of Arabs from the valleys of the proposed Jewish state could give us something which we never had, even when we stood on our own feet during the days of the First and Second Temple.
> ...


Read more at: http://www.counterpunch.org/martin03112005.html

So, Elya, sweetie, if you're going to try to push people to believe things that are so obviously inaccurate, you're going to have to try harder. The fact that Zionist leaders want to get rid of the Palestinians and take their land is so obvious that to deny it is something that, if I spell it out, would possibly be a violation of the forum guidelines. So you can use your imagination.

In regards to the rest of your wall of text, as I've said before--be honest about it and perhaps we can talk. My response to your first "point" is far more than your post merited.

----------


## lester1/2jr

If you want to understand this conflict a really good book is "Jerusalem 1913".  It was a pivotal year and alot of what happened really set the stage for what is still happening now.

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## ElyaKatz

> Palestine before 1917
> 
> 
> succinct summary of who the palestinian people are


"Palestinians are the descendants of the Canaanites and the Philistines." And how is this claim substantiated in fact??? Funny funny funny. One can depend on historical data or on mythology retroactively claimed in the face of cultural and military incompetence, and religious despotism...though Islam is more a military ideology with a religious component than a true religion.

*http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf1.html#b1*

*MYTH*

_“The Palestinians are descendants of the Canaanites and were in Palestine long before the Jews.”_

*FACT*

"Palestinian claims to be related to the Canaanites are a recent phenomenon and contrary to historical evidence. The Canaanites disappeared from the face of the earth three millennia ago, and no one knows if any of their descendants survived or, if they did, who they would be.

Sherif Hussein, the guardian of the Islamic Holy Places in Arabia, said the Palestinians' ancestors had only been in the area for 1,000 years.9 Even the Palestinians themselves have acknowledged their association with the region came long after the Jews. In testimony before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, for example, they claimed a connection to Palestine of more than 1,000 years, dating back no further than the conquest of Muhammad's followers in the 7th century.10 And that claim is also dubious. Over the last 2,000 years, there have been massive invasions that killed off most of the local people (e.g., the Crusades), migrations, the plague, and other manmade or natural disasters. The entire local population was replaced many times over. During the British mandate alone, more than 100,000 Arabs emigrated from neighboring countries and are today considered Palestinians.

By contrast, no serious historian questions the more than 3,000-year-old Jewish connection to the Land of Israel, or the modern Jewish people's relation to the ancient Hebrews."

----------


## lester1/2jr

"Even the Palestinians themselves have acknowledged their association with the region came long after the Jews"

you asked each one of them?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I see. And what, specifically, do you call it when you accuse a person of being "hard-left" rather than focus on the specific point? In fact, that accusation only makes you look more foolish, no matter how tiny you make your font.


If you had read my sources, you would know I made specific points re the like of Benny Morris and the so-called "New Israeli Historians". I happen to like the font. The option is there. If I'd wanted to hide my views, I wouldn't post.




> In response to Ben Gurion's quote being "out of context," that's BS and you know it.


That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.




> Here's just one article analyzing Gurion's state.ment:
> 
> Read more at: http://www.counterpunch.org/martin03112005.html


Amy, it's more of the same....citing the likes of Benny Morris, who has admitted that he has not done comprehensive research.




> So, Elya, sweetie, if you're going to try to push people to believe things that are so obviously inaccurate, you're going to have to try harder. The fact that Zionist leaders want to get rid of the Palestinians and take their land is so obvious that to deny it is something that, if I spell it out, would possibly be a violation of the forum guidelines. So you can use your imagination.
> 
> In regards to the rest of your wall of text, as I've said before--be honest about it and perhaps we can talk. My response to your first "point" is far more than your post merited.


Amy, 

We both know you and I are never going to agree. So, if my posts annoy you so much, how about you stop chasing me around?? Either way, doesn't matter to me. You want to do some real research? Look into what true scholars write about Benny Morris et al. He is discredited by objective historians, such statements being posted already. I made my claim re the hard-left and backed up my claim with links and facts. Ad homs won't undo those sources.

If my "wall of text" is too difficult for you to slog through, then maybe you shouldn't waste your time on them. Just an idea. Backing up claims with verifiable data sometimes takes up a bit of room. Learning about the history of the Middle East takes reading books, lots of books from many perspectives over a period of years. They're usually longer than the average post. I actually quote from said books, and from sources. My posts are often long because I quote my opponent, and my sources for the convenience of the reader. As for pushing things, I am responding the lies put out by some who have been sucked into the well-funded Arab propaganda machine. These groups definitely do not promote liberty in a way shape or form.

 No one is forced to read my posts, so I can hardly be accused of pushing anything.

----------


## lester1/2jr

there are a large amount of jews in israel who have zero ethnic connection to the land.  Many of the russian jews for example, converted around the time of charlemagne. they are not semites


more to the point:  no one really has any rightful claim to any land.  you have to fight for it.  If israael really wants to fight for a tiny area of land in the middle of one of the least productive most violent places on earth, go ahead. the odds are certainly against you population wise:  6 million vs a billion muslims

it's when you involve the united states that you cross the line.  YOU are the ones who are fighting this crusade not ME.  so I don't want to have another 9/11 here because Israel keeps pissing people off and then hiding behind US.  fight your OWN FIGHTS don't manipulate the US to do it for you

----------


## ElyaKatz

> If you want to understand this conflict a really good book is "Jerusalem 1913".  It was a pivotal year and alot of what happened really set the stage for what is still happening now.


I read the reviews. Looks like an interesting read, though one reviewer claimed it didn't have enough in the way of sourcing. _"If this is a history book, how come there are no footnotes or endnotes? There is an extensive bibliography but no references for individual claims throughout the text. In particular, there are some dubious claims for which a reference is badly needed."_

Thanks. I'll put it on my book wishlist. I never tire of reading history books.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> "Even the Palestinians themselves have acknowledged their association with the region came long after the Jews"
> 
> you asked each one of them?


You quoted from another source I cited, not from my own words. Your question is absurd. The article quoted refers to public statements made by Arab leaders.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> there are a large amount of jews in israel who have zero ethnic connection to the land.  Many of the russian jews for example, converted around the time of charlemagne. they are not semites


And if I discuss the fact that all religions and peoples (including America) have the right to admit people who swear an oath of loyalty to their religion, nation etc. would that be illegitimate in your eyes? If I then stated that genetically most Jews are proven to be of semitic origin, thus giving them the right to sovereignty in Eretz Israel, would that argument would be shot down as racism? 

Most people who claim the Jewish people have no legitimate, legal and historical claim to Eretz Israel argue both sides of the coin, depending on which claim is presented in favor. But that puts Americans of European descent in a tough position vis a vis their own claim to this continent.




> more to the point:  no one really has any rightful claim to any land.  you have to fight for it.  If israael really wants to fight for a tiny area of land in the middle of one of the least productive most violent places on earth, go ahead. the odds are certainly against you population wise:  6 million vs a billion muslims


You are correct in that the Jewish people must be willing to fight for their land. And they have shown themselves up to the task. As for being outnumbered, well, we'll see how that works out. King Hezekiah suffered under a similar dilemma. 



> it's when you involve the united states that you cross the line.  YOU are the ones who are fighting this crusade not ME.  so I don't want to have another 9/11 here because Israel keeps pissing people off and then hiding behind US.  fight your OWN FIGHTS don't manipulate the US to do it for you


I haven't involved anyone, any more than you have. If I had my way, and I have also stated this many times on this site, I would definitely want Israel to operate as an independent nation, not tied to the apron strings of the US. Agreed. No foreign aid to any nation, including Israel. 

The US government chooses to involve itself for it's own misguided geopolitical purposes. It does not work out to Israel's advantage, as I have also proven with link/citations in my posts. My guess is they are not read, which demonstrates that most people who hold your positions hold them based on misinformation, and a surface analysis of what is really going on.

----------


## Dr.3D

> I read the reviews. ~Snip


Elya, could you please set the font a bit larger for your future posts.   I'm trying to follow some of these threads and,  I keep having to look over my bifocals to read those small letters.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Elya, could you please set the font a bit larger for your future posts.   I'm trying to follow some of these threads and,  I keep having to look over my bifocals to read those small letters.


Okay. Sorry. I like the font, that's all. I'm a font shopper. Can you read the default font okay??

----------


## amy31416

> Amy, 
> 
> We both know you and I are never going to agree. So, if my posts annoy you so much, how about you stop chasing me around?? Either way, doesn't matter to me. You want to do some real research? Look into what true scholars write about Benny Morris et al. He is discredited by objective historians, such statements being posted already. I made my claim re the hard-left and backed up my claim with links and facts. Ad homs won't undo those sources.
> 
> If my "wall of text" is too difficult for you to slog through, then maybe you shouldn't waste your time on them. Just an idea. Backing up claims with verifiable data sometimes takes up a bit of room. Learning about the history of the Middle East takes reading books, lots of books from many perspectives over a period of years. They're usually longer than the average post. I actually quote from said books, and from sources. My posts are often long because I quote my opponent, and my sources for the convenience of the reader. As for pushing things, I am responding the lies put out by some who have been sucked into the well-funded Arab propaganda machine. These groups definitely do not promote liberty in a way shape or form.
> 
>  No one is forced to read my posts, so I can hardly be accused of pushing anything.


Chasing after you? You have a large and very misguided ego. You're the one who writes a mini-dissertation trying desperately to get people to deny the facts on the ground. And you wrote it specifically to me. I read a thread and while I know how to find every single post that a person has written, I've never done that with your posts. I've read Israeli propaganda before, and when it doesn't make me angry with how much the truth is twisted, it bores the crap out of me.  I don't like seeing it on a forum that I like and so I'll call you out on it from time to time.

There is no Arab propaganda machine in the US, so, you can talk down to me all you'd like, but your asinine assertions speak for themselves. If anything, our media is an Israeli propaganda machine--just another thing that's so obvious as to make your statements ridiculous. And for the records, I'm just as critical of the twisted relationship that my government has with Saudi Arabia--if you were here promoting that, you'd get the same treatment from me.

I'd feel sorry for you if the results of the propaganda you promote haven't been so tragic for my country. I resent you pimping it on a forum that is dedicated to restoring this country. 

You can be accused of pushing something nefarious because you are.

----------


## Dr.3D

> Okay. Sorry. I like the font, that's all. I'm a font shopper. Can you read the default font okay??


Yes it works fine, this is in "Book Antigua" size "3".  And I can read it pretty well. 


Edit: Font Size does work, I just did it incorrectly.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Chasing after you? You have a large and very misguided ego.


Has nothing to do with my ego pal. BTW, my name is Ellie....I've told you that several times and you continue to refer to me as Elya, somehow thinking I'm a man. My hubby and I use the same handle at our blog. That's our blog's email address. For simplicity's sake, at the time (over 18 months ago) I figured I would not be visiting this site much, since I had only put it on my blogroll as a recommendation from a RP supporter friend who first pointed me towards Ron Paul. In order to remember the handle, I chose to use the email address handle here. You continue to disparage my posts, yet you continue to visit them. Seems sort of unproductive to me. Why do you bother since you are supposedly a non-interventionist in foreign affairs, you know, wanting the best for everyone and alliances with no one, that sort of thing? After all, there are over 22,000 other members at his site, and whole world of posts to respond to.




> You're the one who writes a mini-dissertation trying desperately to get people to deny the facts on the ground. And you wrote it specifically to me.


Nothing desperate here. I rather enjoy taking on my opponents. It's much easier to defend the truth than it is to make up history from thin air. I never PM'd you and asked you to respond to my threads, but I will respond to your sarcastic, personal attacks, and your utter lack of factual information.




> I read a thread and while I know how to find every single post that a person has written, I've never done that with your posts. I've read Israeli propaganda before, and when it doesn't make me angry with how much the truth is twisted, it bores the crap out of me.  I don't like seeing it on a forum that I like and so I'll call you out on it from time to time..


Your choice. You have yet to prove that my facts are incorrect however.





> There is no Arab propaganda machine in the US, so, you can talk down to me all you'd like, but your asinine assertions speak for themselves. If anything, our media is an Israeli propaganda machine--just another thing that's so obvious as to make your statements ridiculous. And for the records, I'm just as critical of the twisted relationship that my government has with Saudi Arabia--if you were here promoting that, you'd get the same treatment from me.


On the one hand you say there is no Arab propaganda machine, then you complain about the twisted relationship the US government has with Saudi Arabia. Do you really think all those petrodollars do NOT go to influencing our educational institutions, our governmental institutions, and our media? Check out how Saudi Arabia influences our Title VI educational institutions, just one example. Check out how many Saudis are advisors in our governmental and financial institutions....if unofficial, still very influential. They do party and lot of the money away, but not all of it.




> I'd feel sorry for you if the results of the propaganda you promote haven't been so tragic for my country. I resent you pimping it on a forum that is dedicated to restoring this country.


I resent Muslim/Arab propagandists trying to infiltrate excellent forums such as this one. I will have my say, whether you like it or not.




> You can be accused of pushing something nefarious because you are.


And what "nefarious" thing would that be Amy??? Jews being able to live in peace? Does that annoy you so much?? You know what? If 14 million souls (optimistic estimate) spread all over the world, often beleaguered by antisemitic nutcases, can really control as much as paranoid people think we can, I say nearly 7 billion other people deserve to be dominated. If they are that stupid, heck _they need to be dominated.
_
But the fact of the matter is, 14 million souls, most of whom are little people with a small sphere of influence, do not and cannot possibly "run" the US or the rest of the world the way the misinformed and brainwashed seem to believe. What's more, we're not interested. Most of us just want to be left alone to live in peace.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Yes it works fine, this is in "Book Antigua" size "3".  And I can read it pretty well. 
> 
> 
> Edit: Font Size does work, I just did it incorrectly.


Simpler just to forget the font. It took more time than I should give to these posts anyway. I changed them all back to default. I hope that works. I don't like Book Antigua in 3.

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## ElyaKatz

> But if you come into this forum as a one issue pro-zionist poster it's okay.
> 
> What the hell is going on here...


I did not come to this forum expecting as much anti-Israel vitriol as I have found. I see it as a threat to Libertarianism.




> But in response to this poster I recognize the following passages of scripture:
> 
> God's promise was to Abraham and his seed.  Gentiles are not eligible to receive this promise because they do not come from Abraham's seed.
> 
> The nation of Israel according to God's promise to Abraham is hereditary, which is the basis of classifying race.
> 
> Gentiles may only receive salvation through Jesus Christ.  This is because gentiles are not from Abraham's seed and not eligible to benefit from God's covenant with Abraham.


Interesting perspective, but it takes a certain amount of chutzpah to tell Jews how to define themselves, since the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob actually made us (subordinate) partners with Him in how the Torah is to be administered. Gentiles who choose to take on the covenant have always been admitted into the nation. Being Jewish is not only a religion. It is peoplehood, nationhood, passed down generationally and it can also be lost generationally.




> If you are from Abraham's seed I bless and support you.


Thanks for that. However, Ishmael is also a part of Abraham's seed, and he is not an inheritor of this particular covenant. Esau is also a genetic part of Abraham's seed, but he was also disqualified on the basis that he spurned his birthright, and did not adhere to the dictates of said covenant.




> If you are from Abraham's seed I bless and support you. If you are not from Abraham's seed I consider you a deceiver.  You would seek to redeem a promise that is not yours.
> 
> I do not recognize a Jew who denies their hereditary race as part of the nation of Israel.


Then I take it you don't recognize Ruth as part of the line of David??




> Abraham was a Hebrew.
> 
> Israel is the name given to Jacob.  The tribes of Israel are Jacob's seed.


What of Joseph's wife??




> Israel has 12 tribes.
> 
> Israel and Judah are separate.


Such was not always the case, nor will it be the case in the Messianic Era. The separation came of tragedy. All twelve tribes will one day be united as one people, as is promised by the prophets.




> Deceivers advocate doing God's work on his behalf.  In addition a deceiver would say they must carry this out because it is God's command but when talking about Jeremiah 7 (below) they will say
> 
> God has commanded the tribes of Israel to reform your ways.  The descendants of Abraham must separate from the state of Israel.  The state of Israel is not God's covenant.  I bless all descendants of Abraham the Hebrew and their covenant with God.  If their are any of you living in the state of Israel please separate yourself from an evil state that performs evil and deceives people.


Okay. Well, that's one gentile's view on things. I'm not going to get into it deeply with you, because HKB"H deals with his firstborn son, the Children of Israel, in ways that the gentiles (also His children) often do not understand and really have no say over. As a Jew, I acknowledge legitimate concerns re the State of Israel, yet I still see the hand of the Almighty in the re-constitution of a nation for the Jewish people. In the end, it will be a nation for all of twelve tribes, and when that happens, we will all know for sure that Messiah ben David has arrived on the scene.

And all the confusion on all parts will be cleared up. Until then, let's not go hating on the obvious victims of terrorism. If the State of Israel, home to nearly 6 million Jews (also children of Jacob/Israel) goes down as a result of the jihad declared against it, then Europe and America are next.

----------


## pacelli

> I did not come to this forum expecting as much anti-Israel vitriol as I have found. I see it as a threat to Libertarianism.


I'm pro-Israel all the way.  My father in law is Israeli.  He was in the Israeli military during the 6 day war.  He's told me on several occasions that he wishes the US would let Israel manage their own affairs (foreign and domestic).  And I agree with my father in law.  Ron Paul was the only presidential candidate expressing this view, and that's what got his vote for Ron Paul.  Paul's position on Israel.

And I consider myself to be a libertarian.

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## Dr.3D

> ~Snip
> So in your view are gentiles part of the covenant with Abraham and his descendants?
> Snip~


In my view, some Gentiles have been adopted as children of Abraham.
But then again, I am a Christian with different views than Elle has.

----------


## YumYum

I have seen this debate many times regarding Israel stealing the land of the Palestinians, and it all boils down to "G-d gave us the land". There may be a God; I dont know. But I do know I don't believe in a Muslim god. I don't believe in a Babylonian god, or an Egyptian god. I dont believe in an Assyrian god. I dont believe in a Philistine god, or the god of the Hittites. I dont believe in the god of the Medes and Persians.  I dont believe in the Greek gods, or the Roman gods. 

History shows that these civilizations were very superstitious, and I am sorry to tell you my Zionist apologist friend, but the Jews were also superstitious. I also dont believe in a Jewish god. If your god does exist, he has done your people a great disservice by letting Jews be slaughtered by their enemies time after time, and still you and your people dont get it. Neither do I.

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## ElyaKatz

> I have seen this debate many times regarding Israel stealing the land of the Palestinians, and it all boils down to "G-d gave us the land".


And by rights the Jewish people could have taken it back by force, because there is no statute of limitations on a stolen homeland. See Spanish history vis a vis the Moors. But we chose to legally purchase most of it. The balance was won by wars that were foisted on the Israelis. Any other version of the story is invented Arab revisionist history, Benny Morris and the so-called "new Israeli historians" notwithstanding. He has admitted that he has not done his research as completely as needed to make the statements he's made in the past. See Dr. Francisco Gil-White, historical researcher for more information.




> There may be a God; I don’t know. But I do know I don't believe in a Muslim god. I don't believe in a Babylonian god, or an Egyptian god. I don’t believe in an Assyrian god. I don’t believe in a Philistine god, or the god of the Hittites. I don’t believe in the god of the Medes and Persians.  I don’t believe in the Greek gods, or the Roman gods. 
> 
> History shows that these civilizations were very superstitious, and I am sorry to tell you my Zionist apologist friend, but the Jews were also superstitious. I also don’t believe in a Jewish god. If your god does exist, he has done your people a great disservice by letting Jews be slaughtered by their enemies time after time, and still you and your people don’t get it. Neither do I.


First of all, what a delicious handle.  Seriously, I really like it. I'm thinking of a new name for my blog. Is your handle copyrighted???

Second, you don't need to tell me whether the Jewish people are superstitious or not, since I am Jewish and am quite familiar with the ways of my people. Some are superstitious and some are not. If you consider belief in a Higher Authority superstitious, I call him HKB"H (HaKodesh Baruch Hu, which means the Holy One Blessed Be He in Hebrew) then may all Jews be superstitious.

Third, the evils we have fallen victim to were not perpetrated by HKB"H. He gives mankind the ability to do good or evil. Evil is done by people. There is not much in the way of justice in this world, which you seem to be alluding to. I agree and it's a sad, sorry fact. We comfort ourselves with the thought that ultimately, justice will be served. If not in this world, then in the next. We should all hope that justice in each of our cases is served in this world, for the justice reserved for evil-doers in the next is nothing to contemplate for very long, unless one contemplates it in order to refrain.

Here's a question to consider: If you don't believe in a Creator who has moral expectations of you (ethical monotheism) then how do you determine that any given action or event is right or wrong? The definition of moral right or moral wrong would constantly be on shifting ground. Over time, even a moral society's ethical baseline would shift. 

So, just as a theoretical: The Holocaust, without an absolute standard of right and wrong, would be good if you benefit from the Jewish people's disenfranchisement, because you might have gotten a free house, fully furnished, and my savings account, which would enable you to send your son to medical school. Had you not found yourself the beneficiary of this windfall, your son would have lived a pauper's life, struggling to feed your grandchildren. On the flip side, in such a morally shifting climate, the Holocaust would be bad for me, because I lost my home and all that was in it, my life and my children.

Who determines whether a given act is good or evil? You have been raised in a culture where Biblical morality permeates every level of society. That morality is based on what the G-d of the Bible has stated is good or evil. But not all societies have this baseline of morality to go on. And...in those societies, people do not see anything wrong with stealing, abandoning their children, or killing someone who insults them. I know of people who go to those societies and live among them, in order to teach them Biblical morality (not necessarily missionaries) and they have interesting, tragic stories to tell.

As to your last statement, what are we supposed to "get" exactly?? And what don't you "get"?

Thanks for the friendly post. It's cool water on a parched mouth. Judging by the brief interchange, you seem like an honest, good soul.

Be well.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> In my view, some Gentiles have been adopted as children of Abraham.
> But then again, I am a Christian with different views than Elle has.


I don't presume the position of Judge. There is only One Boss.

The Land of Israel is only promised to the Children of Israel. Even if we don't live there, no other people will ever prosper in the Land of Israel except us. And as it goes for us, so it goes for the rest of the world. We aren't guaranteed the right to live in Eretz Israel either. HKB"H is King and we are His tenants. He purchased us when He took us out of Egypt. The privilege to live in Eretz Israel depends on our obedience. 

But it is not promised to another nation and will be a millstone around the necks of any other people.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I'm pro-Israel all the way.  My father in law is Israeli.  He was in the Israeli military during the 6 day war.  He's told me on several occasions that he wishes the US would let Israel manage their own affairs (foreign and domestic).  And I agree with my father in law.  Ron Paul was the only presidential candidate expressing this view, and that's what got his vote for Ron Paul.  Paul's position on Israel.
> 
> And I consider myself to be a libertarian.


Good for you! And that is precisely why I post what I post here. I think these so-called RP supporters who defame Israel on a regular basis and claim the poor Palis are being oppressed give the whole movement a bad name, hurting Ron and Rand Paul's chances of election.

----------


## ElyaKatz

BS"D

On Live Free's use of the NIV...

NIV?? Why not go with the original, something from the JPS, Artscroll or Feldheim's? The NIV is not even a translation. It's like using "The Living Bible".

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## lester1/2jr

> [And if I discuss the fact that all religions and peoples (including America) have the right to admit people who swear an oath of loyalty to their religion, nation etc. would that be illegitimate in your eyes? If I then stated that genetically most Jews are proven to be of semitic origin, thus giving them the right to sovereignty in Eretz Israel, would that argument would be shot down as racism? 
> 
> Most people who claim the Jewish people have no legitimate, legal and historical claim to Eretz Israel argue both sides of the coin, depending on which claim is presented in favor. But that puts Americans of European descent in a tough position vis a vis their own claim to this continent


you can't say russian jews have a right to israel on the basis of them being there before palestinians because they were never there!




> You are correct in that the Jewish people must be willing to fight for their land. And they have shown themselves up to the task. As for being outnumbered, well, we'll see how that works out. King Hezekiah suffered under a similar dilemma.


they haven' shown themselves remotely up to the task.  If it weren' for american support israel would have ended a long time ago.  They hide behind us and our military industrial complex and billions a year in welfare.  




> My guess is they are not read, which demonstrates that most people who hold your positions hold them based on misinformation,


Israel is why we got 9/11 and it's going to be the cause of another one and I'm against another 9/11.  got it?

israel is not wanted in the middle east.  it's a jewish crusades and it's going to end like the last crusades.  If you want to be a crusader feel free but if my nation is gonig to be roped into helping them I'm going to support their enemy out of self preservation. go palestine!

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## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## ElyaKatz

> I think one issue pro-zionist posters that contradict the mission statement of this forum and are never reminded of the forum mission statement, call into question the integrity of the forum.


If my posts contradict the mission statement of this forum, then so do those members who put post after post up insulting rabbis, and taking a strong stance in defense of Arab terrorism against Israelis, and basically rattling off claims from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion certainly hurt the integrity of the forum. Such utter nonsense serves to marginalize Dr. Paul and his son, Rand Paul.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> If you want to be a crusader feel free but if my nation is gonig to be roped into helping them I'm going to support their enemy out of self preservation. go palestine!


I thought of the link below as I was mulling over your claim that Americans supposedly get roped into fighting Israel's wars. I know you truly believe this to be true, but it simply is not. It is evidence that you and many other Americans who think you know the "real truth" are falling for MSM nonsense.

*Is the US an ally of Israel? A chronological look at the evidence*

Dr. Francisco Gil-White used to be pro-PLO until he decided to do some research. He has Masters in Social Sciences from the University of Chicago and a PhD in biological and cultural anthropology from UCLA. So he's no lightweight historian/researcher. He approaches his work objectively.

911 was caused by Islamic fanatics. The Somalian community in this country were celebrating in the their coffee shops all night long the night of 911.The Muslim world regularly and proudly declares it's intentions to take over America, and replace the constitution with sharia. they brag about the "fall of capitalism" and have regular conferences on American soil to discuss their long range plans. Moderate Muslims in this country are outing their radical co-religionists, at risk to their own lives.

You will find out this is true, and it will be a sad day for me when I see Americans being forced to follow sharia. I take no pleasure in the possibility of such a future for this beautiful, great nation.

----------


## YumYum

> First of all, what a delicious handle.  Seriously, I really like it. I'm thinking of a new name for my blog. Is your handle copyrighted???
> 
> Here's a question to consider: If you don't believe in a Creator who has moral expectations of you (ethical monotheism) then how do you determine that any given action or event is right or wrong? The definition of moral right or moral wrong would constantly be on shifting ground. Over time, even a moral society's ethical baseline would shift. 
> 
> As to your last statement, what are we supposed to "get" exactly?? And what don't you "get?


With regards to my moniker YumYum, it is with reference to YumYum Israel, the name that my Mom gave to a Jewish dish that she used to make. It is a delicate and smooth/creamy garlic sauce. Actually, I would love to market and sell it. It is ten times better than Hummus. What determines my morality, you ask? My conscience, which I was born with. Regarding Zionism, and what you dont seem to get, is that your G-d is an angry G-d who murders innocent humans, including babies. I know. I used to worship him. I have two great-grandmothers who were Jewish (secular).  My grandparents and my Dad joined a cult that worships the Hebrew G-d. I was raised in that religious group. One reason I am on this forum is to help non-Jews understand that Zionism does not represent the majority of Jews. Social Zionism, as you call it, breeds anti-Semitism, and millions of innocent Jews have been murdered because of the actions of a few.  I have Jewish friends, and while they are defensive of Israel, they value life more than real estate, and blame Israels leaders as much as the Palestinians leaders for the conflict that is taking place in the occupied territories. Your G-d gave you the land 3,000 years ago. What a price mankind has had to pay, and is going to pay, for a small area of desert. Zionist care for no one, not even themselves, when it comes to the settling of Israel. They use whatever force is necessary to achieve their goals. They follow the example of your G-d in killing innocent people. Your G-d shows his thirst for blood in the 1st Book of Samuel. We read in Chapter 15, verses 1 through 3: Samuel said to Saul, I am the man whom Yahweh sent to anoint you king over his people, over Israel, so now listen to the words of Yahweh. Thus speaks Yahweh Sabaoth, I will repay what Amalek did to Israel when they opposed them on the road by which they came up out of Egypt. Now, go and strike down Amalek; put him under the ban with all that he possesses. Do not spare him, but kill man and woman, babe and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey. Yes, even little babies that were nursing were murdered.

What I dont get? When will this genocide end?

----------


## lester1/2jr

> Is the US an ally of Israel? A chronological look at the evidence


lol the guy has no idea what an ally is.  no actually he's right, the US doesn't bend over backwards nearly enough for israel.  billions in aid and overruling UN council rulings isn't enough.  we should bend over in a complete circle.  we are a contortinist when we shold be plasticman.




> The Muslim world regularly and proudly declares it's intentions to take over America, and replace the constitution with sharia. they


you are a ron paul supporter who doesn't believe in blowback?  that's the principle thing he is known for: the idea that our actions in the middle east are the cause of the resentment that fueled 9/11  NOT that they "hated us for our freedoms".  




> Moderate Muslims in this country are outing their radical co-religionists, at risk to their own lives


??  outing them as what?  there no law against being a radical

----------


## ElyaKatz

> lol the guy has no idea what an ally is.  no actually he's right, the US doesn't bend over backwards nearly enough for israel.  billions in aid and overruling UN council rulings isn't enough.  we should bend over in a complete circle.  we are a contortinist when we shold be plasticman.


Most of the aid comes in the form of coupons which give Israel the right to buy overstock military equipment. It's actually a form of government subsidy that keeps the only leg of the American economy propped up...the arms industry.




> you are a ron paul supporter who doesn't believe in blowback?  that's the principle thing he is known for: the idea that our actions in the middle east are the cause of the resentment that fueled 9/11  NOT that they "hated us for our freedoms".


While I believe in the concept of "blowback", I think Ron Paul is wrong on one point where blowback is concerned. We interfere in the business of foreign governments. Many foreign governments. We act like the big bully on the block all over the world. And we do this with Israel as well. Those coupons keep Israel tied to America's idea of Middle Eastern policy even when American foreign policy works against Israel's interests. That's the way money works. So, the apron strings should be cut, for the sake of both nations. Ron Paul has even said this. He has said that if all foreign aid were cut, it would work to Israel's advantage, because Israel's enemies are being armed at least as much as Israel.

It's easy to trace the type of blowback that really is hurting America. Even if Israel ceased to exist, the Muslim world would be trying to destroy America. The dirty business our CIA gets involved in certainly does cause us a lot of problems. You can thank the likes of Zbigniew Brzezinski for the build-up of the jihadi world. He has more loyalty to Poland than America. His hatred of Russia clouds his thinking.




> ??  outing them as what?  there no law against being a radical


Who said anything about it being illegal to be a radical? I was referring to moderate Muslims exposing the nefarious agenda of radical political Islamists who's end-goal is the replacement of the US Constitution with sharia. According to these radical Islamists, these moderate Muslims who are loyal Americans, deserved to die because they are exposing them.

Are we not all obligated to protect our Constitution? Wouldn't a group who believes the Constitution needs to be replaced, by force if necessary...be considered treasonous??

----------


## ElyaKatz

> But God does not require obedience...


Please cite chapter and verse in the Hebrew Bible (not the Old Testament; the Tanach) which states that G-d does not require obedience....

----------


## YumYum

> Please cite chapter and verse in the Hebrew Bible (not the Old Testament; the Tanach) which states that G-d does not require obedience....


Do you speak Yiddish?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Do you speak Yiddish?


Let me make myself clear. There is no need, nor much benefit, to posting the Tanach in Hebrew. The JPS, Artscroll, Feldheim's Tanachim are works by translators fluent in Hebrew, Aramaic and English. They are available in either English, or a Hebrew/Aramaic with English translation on the opposing page. The Christian Old Testament is mistranslated in crucial spots. It's not the same book. I don't recognize it's authority.

I understand, read, and speak Hebrew. My Yiddish is negligible. I hope to remedy the situation at some point in the future however.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Your G-d gave you the land 3,000 years ago. What a price mankind has had to pay, and is going to pay, for a small area of desert. Zionist care for no one, not even themselves, when it comes to the settling of Israel. They use whatever force is necessary to achieve their goals. They follow the example of your G-d in killing innocent people. Your G-d shows his thirst for blood in the 1st Book of Samuel. We read in Chapter 15, verses 1 through 3: “Samuel said to Saul, ‘I am the man whom Yahweh sent to anoint you king over his people, over Israel, so now listen to the words of Yahweh. Thus speaks Yahweh Sabaoth, “I will repay what Amalek did to Israel when they opposed them on the road by which they came up out of Egypt. Now, go and strike down Amalek; put him under the ban with all that he possesses. Do not spare him, but kill man and woman, babe and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey”.’” Yes, even little babies that were nursing were murdered.
> 
> What I don’t get? When will this genocide end?


These passages are very difficult for me as well. Excellent question. I'm not going to get back to you on it right away, but I am filing it away for further research. I am someone interested in politics and history, particularly as related to the Jewish people. I am no scholar on Tanach. I did read a bit on these passages from the Midrash Rabbah yesterday, as you piqued my curiosity. I have more study and questions myself that I will pursue before answering you directly.

However, I don't agree that Israel applies this principle. Modern Israel is a secular state with mostly secular laws which are more in line with current Western thinking. 

Re the "cult" may I ask, which??

Best,

Elya

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## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## lester1/2jr

> Most of the aid comes in the form of coupons which give Israel the right to buy overstock military equipment. It's actually a form of government subsidy that keeps the only leg of the American economy propped up...the arms industry.


again, you cannot possibly be a ron paul supporter if you support that kind of "propping up"

OUR taxpayer dollarts are being used, that's the bottom line.  




> Are we not all obligated to protect our Constitution? Wouldn't a group who believes the Constitution needs to be replaced, by force if necessary...be considered treasonous??


 you'd make a great commie

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Please elaborate on the discrepancies contained in the Christian Old Testament...


You can find an exhaustive comparative study of those discrepancies in "Let's Get Biblical" by Rabbi Tovia Singer.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> again, you cannot possibly be a ron paul supporter if you support that kind of "propping up"
> 
> OUR taxpayer dollarts are being used, that's the bottom line.  
> 
> 
> 
>  you'd make a great commie


I made it clear I don't support the system. It's obvious to me when someone almost exclusively decries foreign aid to Israel, without looking into or commenting on the same to Arab countries, what the agenda is.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> How about if I supply the common sense and you find the passages to teach me....
> 
> Would God be a just god if he allowed a sinless person to die?
> 
> Why does God allow repentance if death is the just penalty for sin?
> 
> If you repent, why do you still die?


You are coming from a Christian perspective on the topic of sin and repentance. G-d is always and has always been willing to forgive the truly repentant sinner. His system of forgiveness, repentance and how to achieve a pure and close relationship with Him has never changed, and has never been open only to Jews.

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## ElyaKatz

> The covenant only applies to descendants of Abraham.  This is not me telling Jews anything it is reading what is written.


It is you coming up with your own definition of who is entitled to the inheritance of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You are free to do so, but gentile authority in such matters is non-existent.  




> All of this is irrelevant to this conversation because Jews do not define themselves by heredity which is the only thing relevant to the covenant.


Not true. If you look into Jewish thinking on the matter, from Jewish sources, you will find that family lineage plays an important role. However, family lineage is not, nor has it ever been the only consideration. 




> So in your view are gentiles part of the covenant with Abraham and his descendants?


We are defining our terms differently, so there is no way to proceed with the discussion.




> Very arrogant of you to presume to know and comprehend better than a gentile.  Descendants of Abraham are not endowed with any special abilities, they are recipients of special love from God.


You can try to redefine according to your own inaccurate readings, what the terms of G-d's covenant with the Children of Israel is from now until the end of time, but it doesn't change a thing.

*
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElyaKatz*

_"In the end, it will be a nation for all of twelve tribes, and when that happens, we will all know for sure that Messiah ben David has arrived on the scene."_




> I find it interesting you can acknowledge this and still claim the hand of the Almighty is at work.


The hand of the Almighty is always at work. 

I don't think the current State of Israel is the fulfillment of prophecy. However, it might be the beginning of that fulfillment. In any case, there are so many miracles surrounding the re-birth of Israel, it's obvious to me that the Almighty is still the Boss, and allowed Israel to be reborn in the manner in which it was. There is still more to unfold.

----------


## lester1/2jr

is one of the commandments is  "thou shall not steal" how can god "give" the land of canaan to the israelites?

----------


## Dr.3D

> is one of the commandments is  "thou shall not steal" how can god "give" the land of canaan to the israelites?


The land originally and still belongs to God and is His to give to whomever he pleases.

----------


## ElyaKatz

BS"D




> The land originally and still belongs to God and is His to give to whomever he pleases.


Good to hear from you again Dr.3D. Yes, this is the Jewish understanding. We have been doing much repenting over the last 2000 years, and now many believe it is time to make returning to Eretz Israel, wherever it is in our power to do so, a part of our "teshuvah"...poorly translated into English as repentance. 

I thought I'd share with you, Dr.3D, some wonderful news I just found. 

*Triplets for Father Who Lost Three Sons to Terrorism*

I closely followed the events surrounding the Shabo and the Hatuel tragedies, as well as the Sbarro Pizzeria bombing, and most of the bus bombings that occurred during those terrible years. It's no coincidence that HKB"H has chosen to bless Boaz Shabo (look how European he looks!) with triplets. There are no coincidences in the lives of those who love Him.

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## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## ElyaKatz

> And why is it that you die?  I missed you actually addressing the questions.


I'm not interested in getting into a theological debate right now, particularly on this thread. It's off topic. If you read the base post of this thread, I reserve the right to not reply to off-topic posts. I also reserve the right to be inconsistent on that count.

In order for you to understand the Jewish perspective on the larger questions of sin, death and how to reconcile oneself to G-d, it would require months of careful Biblical study on your part, and years of follow-up in order to get de-programmed from the Christian point-of-view. One is never really done studying, eh?

If you are interested in pursuing the topic on your own, I recommend *Outreach Judaism*. R' Singer does some excellent work, and is sympathetic to gentiles, actually very concerned that gentiles learn how to have a pure relationship with G-d. He understands Christianity inside and out, backward and forwards. I've studied Christianity for over 40 years, so I understand it fairly well too, but not nearly as much as R' Singer. He's a true scholar, both within Judaism and re Christianity. 

I'm not in the market. I'm very, very happy living as a Jew. For the sake of scholarship alone, he's worth reading and listening to. His mp3 files are free. He also has a book which is being updated and will be ready in about a month called "Let's Get Bibical". Right now they can't be ordered.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Please explain the covenant to me citing the Torah.  I will be waiting for you to explain how the covenant applies to anyone outside of the descendants of Abraham.  I await enlightenment...signals retreat.  which is what always happens as soon as the word Hebrew, the covenant of Abraham, or race is mentioned.


No. I am utterly and completely disinterested in getting off on any more tangents on this thread than what is already here. This is a debate about how to determine who is a Palestinian, not who is a Jew, the covenant of Abraham etc.




> Lacking enlightenment I will have to accept my so called inaccurate readings as true.  I am surprised here.  You have miles of citations when it comes to international law but are unable to authoritatively cite scripture where the covenant of Abraham applies to gentiles.  Isn't this supposed to be an area where the Jewish people are experts?


If you are reading the Old Testament thinking it is true to the Hebrew Scriptures, then yes, you are missing out. I am not going to judge you re whether you are enlightened or not. I don't know you enough to make that determination. 

I think you are exaggerating re "miles of citations" but thanks for the compliment anyway. I do like to back my claims with sources. Re being surprised re my lack of citations of Scripture, I suggest you buy yourself a JPS or Artscroll Tanach and look it over, make your own comparisons. They're not expensive and it might help you out. I just don't want to take the time, and it really is not the topic of the thread. 




> I had no idea the influence of money and illegal immigration were considered miraculous works nowadays.


Ahhh. I didn't say "miraculous". We are not to wait for miracles. We are to act, and then maybe we will merit a miracle. There, a little of the Jewish perspective on miracles. 

I did say that Israel is probably a work of the Almighty. In fact, I think that is self-evident. There were miracles that many reported, on both sides of the various battles however. So, maybe the Jewish people were doing some things right after all.

You like to put words in my mouth I noticed.

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## YumYum

Are you for Israel first and America second? Are you a member of AIPAC? Do you think that Palestinians are "beast walking on two legs"? Are you aware that Jewish groups are monitoring web sites such as this one under a government program called "Know Thy Enemy"? Why doesn't Israel admit to having nuclear weapons? According to Samuel Friedman, in an article in USA Today, he said that the Palestinians are only allowed 5 gallons of water a day per person. Do you think that it is a fair way to treat humans? Why do you portray all Palestinians as fizehnishes? Have you studied the Torah? Why would a Judist refuse to eat food that was cooked by a gentile? Does the Torah teach racism? Why does the Rabbinical Prayer state: "..and G-d,  thank you for not making me a tree, or a rock, or a plant, but most of all G-d, thank you for not making me a Gentile woman."? Why won't you give the Palestinians all of the West Bank and their half of Jerusalem? Why do you make them live like animals in refugee camps? Would your group, AIPAC, force my country to go to war with Iran, and draft me so that I can die in a war I don't want to fight in? 

So many questions.....

----------


## lester1/2jr

> I made it clear I don't support the system. It's obvious to me when someone almost exclusively decries foreign aid to Israel, without looking into or commenting on the same to Arab countries, what the agenda is.


our aid to arab countires is ONLY because of our aid to israel.  the camp david accords are an example of that.  we give 2 billion to egypt and israel so that egypt won't attack israel.

it's the same with the other countries.  it's why I can't invest in iran directly.  because of israels security

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Are you for Israel first and America second?...So many questions.....


YumYum, your questions are not really questions, but statements in the form of questions. So, since you've already answered your "questions" to your satisfaction, I'm not going to take precious time out of my day to bother. Re my personal beliefs, who I am, my motivations for posting, I've been very transparent about myself in several other posts. You are free to read them if you'd like.

Re being monitored, I think it's ridiculous for folks to post their personal, religious or political beliefs, and then turn around and get paranoid because some group is allegedly monitoring them. If you're such a privacy freak, then don't post what you think on a public forum, or anywhere on the internet, because it is not private at all.

Mankind got along for how long without posting on the internet. It's purely optional.

If I was here to monitor anyone, I would lurk, not post.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> our aid to arab countires is ONLY because of our aid to israel.  the camp david accords are an example of that.  we give 2 billion to egypt and israel so that egypt won't attack israel.
> 
> it's the same with the other countries.  it's why I can't invest in iran directly.  because of israels security


I've made an ironclad case for the Jewish people's legal and historical right to live in what used to be called Western Palestine in their own sovereign, reconstituted nation. Whether or not the US government gives them foreign aid is obviously the choice of the US government. No one is twisting their arm. 

I happen to not agree with the US government giving foreign aid to anyone. However, I don't blame Israel because a bunch of rabid dictators want to take the focus off their own tyrannical regimes and place the blame on the Jews. That's blaming the victim. Scapegoating the Jews and blaming the victim are tired old games.

----------


## YumYum

> YumYum, your questions are not really questions, but statements in the form of questions. So, since you've already answered your "questions" to your satisfaction, I'm not going to take precious time out of my day to bother. Re my personal beliefs, who I am, my motivations for posting, I've been very transparent about myself in several other posts. You are free to read them if you'd like.
> 
> Re being monitored, I think it's ridiculous for folks to post their personal, religious or political beliefs, and then turn around and get paranoid because some group is allegedly monitoring them. If you're such a privacy freak, then don't post what you think on a public forum, or anywhere on the internet, because it is not private at all.
> 
> Mankind got along for how long without posting on the internet. It's purely optional.
> 
> If I was here to monitor anyone, I would lurk, not post.



I didn't expect you to answer my questions, because I was making a point. These are not my questions but the questions of millions of people who do not accept your case for the oppression of the Palestinian people. You argue that your G-d gave you the land; that gives the impression that you are in a favorable position with Him. But your G-d has also repeatedly allowed millions of Jews for the last 2000 years to suffer and be tortured while His back was turned against you. That is what you don't get. Your G-d has abandoned you. My proof is when Israel did well in the eyes of G-d they prospered and got along with their neighbors. When they did not have G-d's favor they suffered and continually battled with others; just as they are doing now. They are now suffering because they do not wait for G-d's forgiveness and allow Him to restore them to their land by peaceful means, but they have taken the land of Palestine by force and resorted to the vilest type of violence and genocide; all in His name. Zionism is a disease and it will bring the end of mankind. Hitler tried the same thing that the Zionists want to accomplish; occupy and oppress other people, and he was brought to ruin. Why would you want to promote an agenda that angers the world and stirs up anti-Semitism? They say; we say, and I say "Never Again!", but how will we stop it this time? The whole world is turning on innocent Jewish people because of the actions of so few. You have been an edel mensch with the people on this forum, which is to your credit. I am not attacking you. But the problems in the Middle East have become complex and it is going to take more than a group of grosser philisophes to solve this mess. It is also going to take you and your Zionist friends to meet the Palestinians half way by giving them back the West Bank and their portion of Jerusalem, and by giving them their sovereignty as a nation.

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## lester1/2jr

> I've made an ironclad case


lol I don't think you can just state that.  No, you haven't made any such case




> Whether or not the US government gives them foreign aid is obviously the choice of the US government.


then it's up to israel to refuse that aid, if not they have to use OUR rules not their own religous edicts.  sorry, that's how it works




> I don't blame Israel because a bunch of rabid dictators want to take the focus off their own tyrannical regimes and place the blame on the Jews.


you have it entirely backwards as usual.  the regimes are tapping into their peoples hatred of israel and us foreign policy, not the other way around.  

al queda doesn't inform people about the israeli-palestinian conflict, they recruit off of it.  same with the dictators

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## purplechoe

> The land originally and still belongs to God and is His to give to whomever he pleases.


I thought that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was supped to be the crazy one? Looks like Dr. 3D is a religious fanatic!

God is truth, the rest (religion) is just Santa Clause!

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## Dr.3D

> I thought that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was supped to be the crazy one? Looks like Dr. 3D is a religious fanatic!
> 
> *God is truth*, the rest (religion) is just Santa Clause!


Your truth or mine?

----------


## WClint

In regards to it I take a neutral position, quite frankly it should be none of our concern/ I do have a problem with neocons and Israeli supremacists who try to make it our problem.

If we stopped giving aid to Israel and the Muslims, Israel would actually be better off (as the Muslim states get more money). This would free Israel to do what it wants, it would than not only be completely responsible for its own actions but also not be restricted (IE it wouldn't have to get the green light from Washington to Bomb Iran). The fact of the matter is a foreign policy of intervention foreign policy is the good for all parties. The fact that Israel used white phosphorous on the Palestinians I couldn't give two $#@!s.

Its when neocons argue that the US should be the ones to bomb Iran because apparantly the rationale for not would some how magically change.




> Two senior Republican senators say the United States, and not Israel, should attack Iran if military action becomes "necessary."
> 
> They also say a simple strike at the country's nuclear capability wouldn't be enough -- the US would have to launch an "all-or-nothing" war against Iran with the aim of crippling the country's military capabilities.
> 
> "I think an Israeli attack on Iran is a nightmare for the world, because it will rally the Arab world around Iran and they're not aligned now. It's too much pressure to put on Israel," Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) told Fox News' Chris Wallace.
> 
> He continued: "If the sanctions fail, and Iran's going down the road to get a nuclear weapon, any Sunni Arab state that could, would want a nuclear weapon. Israel will be more imperiled. The world will change dramatically for the worst. Military action should be the last resort anyone looks at, and I would rather our allies and us take military action if it's necessary."
> 
> But Graham doesn't think an attack should be limited to airstrikes on Iran's nuclear facilities. "If we use military action against Iran, we should not only go after their nuclear facilities. We should destroy their ability to make conventional war. They should have no planes that can fly and no ships that can float," said Graham.


http://rawstory.com/2009/10/attack-iran-before-israel/

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## Dr.3D

> In regards to it I take a neutral position, quite frankly it should be none of our concern/ I do have a problem with neocons and Israeli supremacists who try to make it our problem.
> 
> If we stopped giving aid to Israel and the Muslims, Israel would actually be better off (as the Muslim states get more money). This would free Israel to do what it wants, it would than not only be completely responsible for its own actions but also not be restricted (IE it wouldnt have to get the green light from Washington to Bomb Iran). The fact of the matter is a foreign policy of *intervention* foreign policy is the good for all parties..


Shouldn't that be nonintervention?

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## WClint

> Shouldn't that be nonintervention?


Yeah

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## revolutionisnow

> The land originally and still belongs to God and is His to give to whomever he pleases.


Ever able to find a quote where he gives the land to "jews"?

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## Dr.3D

> Ever able to find a quote where he gives the land to "jews"?





> Genesis 13:12-15  Abram settled in the land of Canaan, while Lot settled among the cities of the Plain and moved his tent as far as Sodom.  13 Now the people of Sodom were wicked, great sinners against the LORD.  14 The LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him, "Raise your eyes now, and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward;  15 for *all the land that you see I will give to you and to your offspring forever*.


Highlighted emphasis is mine.

The following is quoted from Strong's Dictionary:


> *Abram* (<087> Meaning: 'exalted father,' the original name of Abraham) was later renamed to *Abraham*(<085> Meaning: 'exalted father,' the father of the *Jewish* nation).

----------


## revolutionisnow

That's giving the land to a bloodline, not people of a religion. Abraham was a Hebrew, not a "jew". Many Arabs are descendants of Ishmael, so that would mean the land is given to them also. It also means that Christians, Buddhists, etc also have a right to the land, as long as they are descendants of Abraham. As far as jews and Judahites, well jews were the ENEMIES of the Judahites. So were the Canaanites.

2 Kings 16
1 In the seventeenth year of Pekah the son of Remaliah Ahaz the son of Jotham king of Judah began to reign. 2 Twenty years old was Ahaz when he began to reign, and reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem, and did not that which was right in the sight of the LORD his God, like David his father. 3 But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, yea, and made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel. 4 And he sacrificed and burnt incense in the high places, and on the hills, and under every green tree.

5 Then Rezin king of Syria and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to war: and they besieged Ahaz, but could not overcome him. 6 At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day.

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## ElyaKatz

> Highlighted emphasis is mine.
> 
> The following is quoted from Strong's Dictionary:


You'll go around in circles with him. There is no point. 

There's a good chance our esteemed friend revolutionisnow does not understand Hebrew/Aramaic, so he will not be able to look into the original text of the Chumash, which would help him more clearly understand the various nuances there. He obviously also rejects the lineage of Ruth and Joseph as they married women who were not born into Judaism. And it is not clear to revolutionisnow that the tribe of Judah, Levi and Benjamin, which are the only tribes left as identifiable (since the Northern Kingdom was dispersed by the Assyrians) are also children of Jacob/Israel. He's all stuck on the Anglicized version of Judah (Jew).

I also do not detect any understanding of how carefully the 3 remaining tribes have been preserved with the rise in importance of the Bais Din (Jewish legal court with 3 judges) after the destruction of Jerusalem, facilitated  by the tireless work of the Gaon Yochanan ben Zakkai and his colleagues. Israel apparently must remain fossilized in time in order for him to recognize it's current validity as a people/nation/religion. The Bais Din monitors Jewish life at all important junctures. Until recently, the Bais Din had real legal authority over the Jewish people. Even now, the Bais Din is the central authority of authentic Jewish life. Besides being in control of documenting the bris milah ceremony, marriages, divorces and deaths, many Torah observant Jews prefer to take their legal questions to a Bais Din rather than a secular court, and abide by its authority in civil matters. 

The Torah would be looked at as the Jewish people's constitution. The Oral Torah is then comparable to all subsequent laws which were legislated by our representatives since the drafting of our Constitution. They must be built on the Torah, just as the laws of America must all be built on and agree with the US Constitution and the various state constitutions. _(would that it were true)_

----------


## ElyaKatz

> That's giving the land to a bloodline, not people of a religion. Abraham was a Hebrew, not a "jew". Many Arabs are descendants of Ishmael, so that would mean the land is given to them also. It also means that Christians, Buddhists, etc also have a right to the land, as long as they are descendants of Abraham. As far as jews and Judahites, well jews were the ENEMIES of the Judahites. So were the Canaanites


In the Torah, it clearly states that Ishmael will have another blessing from HKB"H, but it is not the Land. That is why he was sent away....he was troubling Yitzchak, who was an heir to the covenant which gives the Land to Abraham's descendants.

Being the "correct" lineage is not all that is required to be a part of Abraham's covenant. Abraham was blessed because he obeyed, and no less than that is required of any of his descendants if they wish to be a part of his inheritance. Esau sold his birthright and he thus lost his right to this covenant.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

Interesting thread.  I personally find the Palestinian claim to the land more historically accurate than the Jews' claim, simply based on the diaspora as described the the Torah as well as various other Hebrew scholars I've perused.  JMHO, I'm no expert by any means.

----------


## Liberty Star

> Who is Palestinian? Where is Palestine?? Who Named Palestine???  [/I]


You're not the only one asking this question, many people have been asking this question post 9/11.  I have been reading about it and looks like same questions had come up after 1973 oil embrago, there seems to be a connection of Palestinians to major world and economic events and curiosity about Palestinian race increases during major economic crisis.


Short asnwer may be that people on the left side in this video are  Palestinians, supposedly God's favorite race as Jesus was reportedly a Palestinian:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpos...3&postcount=20

----------


## YumYum

> You're not the only one asking this question, many people have been asking this question post 9/11.  I have been reading about it and looks like same questions had come up after 1973 oil embrago, there seems to be a connection of Palestinians to major world and economic events and curiosity about Palestinian race increases during major economic crisis.
> 
> 
> Short asnwer may be that people on the left side in this video are  Palestinians, supposedly God's favorite race as Jesus was reportedly a Palestinian:
> 
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpos...3&postcount=20


That is some very telling information you have attached. I could never understand how some of the people who were in Hitler's concentration camps, came out, and then went to Palestine, and with British tanks and machine guns, slaughtered innocent people who could only defend themselves with muskets and stones. And they say that "God is on their side."

----------


## Liberty Star

> That is some very telling information you have attached. I could never understand how some of the people who were in Hitler's concentration camps, came out, and then went to Palestine, and with British tanks and machine guns, slaughtered innocent people who could only defend themselves with muskets and stones. And they say that "God is on their side."



In times of fear people tend to take refuge in their Gods but certain dose of fear under the right condition also seems to create terrorists.  That probably applies to both sides there with varying degrees.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> That is some very telling information you have attached. I could never understand how some of the people who were in Hitler's concentration camps, came out, and then went to Palestine, and with British tanks and machine guns, slaughtered innocent people who could only defend themselves with muskets and stones. And they say that "God is on their side."


What history books do you read YumYum? The Brits enabled Arab terrorism, allowed Arabs to arm, while restricting or prohibiting Jewish arms (as did the Turks before them). They installed Hajj Amin Al-Husayni who helped Hitler build his killing machine (the Nazis originally only wanted to deport their Jewish population before Husayni came along) and for the most part have been on the Arab's side of things, although there was the odd Brit who sided with the Jewish people.

You might consider reading some of *Dr. Francisco Gil-White's* work. Dr. Gil-White originally sympathized with the Arab narrative, until he started doing research on the origins of the PLO. He is one of the more accessible historians on the net with solid credentials, but there are plenty of excellent history books out there too. You might want to look into the perspective of your own people sometime. That's not necessarily an unfair thing to do.

*Was There a Massacre at Deir Yassin?*

*Was Arab anti-Jewish racism in the first half of the 20th c. fundamentally different from the European variety?*

*Did the Zionist Jews take something away from the Arabs in British Mandate 'Palestine'?*

I take issue with Dr. Gil-Whites views on why we, as a people, have had a difficult time grasping the need for self-defense in modern times as expressed in his article, * How Jewish piety sabotages Jewish self-defense*. He's got some of it right, but some of his understandings of Jewish Law vis-a-vis self-defense only touch on the surface. But then, I don't believe he's Jewish, or if he is, he was not raised frum, so that would explain that. Jewish Law is very involved, and I'm certain many rabbis devote their entire lifetime to studying only one subject, such as self-defense. I'm no Torah scholar that's for sure. But he did leave out some important historical facts which led to Jewish helplessness, beginning in the medieval world of Europe. He would do well to incorporate some of the insights from *A Place Among the Nations* by Benjamin Netanyahu.

_"Yet once the Jews were driven into exile and became a collection of dispersed communities in the medieval world, they were gradually deprived of all the conditions necessary for self-defense...Most notably in the states of medieval Germany, the Jews were stripped of the right that others had to carry weapons for self-defense, despite the fact that (or perhaps because) it was the Jews who often faced the most wanton assaults....As the doctrines of modern pacifism emerged, many Jews rushed to embrace them, pretending they could transform into a universal virtue what had always been a unique vulnerability of the Jews. That the Jews 'would not' (could not) resort to arms, that they would not 'demean' themselves by 'stooping to violence' was taken to be a clear sign of their moral superiority over other peoples who were not similarly constrained. Once leading segments of Jewish opinion in Europe had transformed Jewish weakness into a positive good, the Jewish people's chances of escaping its fate reached a new low."_ *A Place Among the Nations pgs 362-3* by Benjamin Netanyahu.

And as for the world's difficulties with a Jewish nation that can now defend itself, no longer helpless, Mr. Netanyahu writes:

_"But the inability to adjust to the reality of Jewish power is equally true for those who are sympathetic to Jewish suffering and wish to see it end. Many philo-Semites have come to appreciate the Jews as a persecuted people and therefore as a people that cannot be morally in the wrong. For one who has no power over anyone else, or even over himself, cannot be blamed for the harm that befalls others. For such sympathizers, it is no easy thing to watch the Jews become a people wielding power. Power inevitably means moral responsibility, and sometimes it means making mistakes as well. Once the Jews have an army and a state, it is all too easy to blame them for their actions -- and to look back wistfully upon the perfect morality of the defenseless Jew."_ *A Place Among the Nations pg 398*

Thanks, YumYum (love that handle...er...now I'm hungry) for the recognition of my efforts at remaining kind to my ideological opponents, even in the face of quite a few ad homs directed my way. I don't succeed in remaining as even-tempered as I'd like sometimes. 

Just to let you know though, I am using my husband's email handle on this site (long story...I've written on it here somewhere). Thus, I'm a really an _edel menstchette_...like the mix of languages??  I don't know much Yiddish, but as I said, I plan on studying it. It's a beautiful language that deserves to live on. Did you know it actually has a Latin based grammar?? Fascinating. 

Also, I don't believe I've ever used the term "social Zionism". Maybe "Socialist Zionism", aka Labor Zionism. I don't identify in the least with Labor Zionism, or the leaders of Labor Zionism. 

Had I lived in the days of the Yishuv, I would have identified with Revisionist Zionism or Mizrachi Zionism. My hashkafah is somewhere between Religious Zionism and Chareidi yiddishkeit. I seem to appreciate Breslev views re the State of Israel the most. Have you ever read the teachings of *R' Lazer Brody*? Amazing guy. I've heard great things about the book *Garden of Emunah* and have it on my book wishlist.

Did you know, YumYum, that according to Torah Judaism (I don't know which tradition you come from) badmouthing the Arabs as a people is wrong. Like how the Imams in Jerusalem for instance are always referring to Jews as "the sons of monkeys and pigs" in their sermons. We can't do that sort of thing. It's a big sin. They are our cousins and as such, we are not allowed to say nasty things about them. No ad homs in other words. In fact, sinning against goyim is a bigger hillul HaShem then sinning against a Jew...contrary to popular myth among antisemitic types who like to spread lies about what is allegedly in the Talmud.

I do believe, but would have to check with my Rabbi, that we can however, discuss the wrong that the Arabs/Muslims do. HKB"H loves the sinner, but hates the sin. I really should check on that, because I'm only assuming. If you see me deleting my posts exposing the type of things that Arabs such as Hajj Amin al-Husayni have been involved in, you'll know why.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> You're not the only one asking this question, many people have been asking this question post 9/11.  I have been reading about it and looks like same questions had come up after 1973 oil embrago, there seems to be a connection of Palestinians to major world and economic events and curiosity about Palestinian race increases during major economic crisis.
> 
> 
> Short asnwer may be that people on the left side in this video are  Palestinians, supposedly God's favorite race as Jesus was reportedly a Palestinian:
> 
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpos...3&postcount=20


I've seen that video. Lot of hype in the title, not much to verify the claims, or what went into why the operation had to be carried out. It's war and in war, sometimes mistakes and tragedies occur. The difference between the Israelis and the Arabs are, the Israelis investigate and punish when such mistakes are made. The Arab/Muslim world passes out candies when innocent Israeli women, children and babies are murdered by their men.

YouTube - CNN- Glenn Beck- Gaza TV Teaches Muslim children Hate
How can anyone claim Jesus (the Galilean) was a Palestinian? The region didn't even come to be called "Palestine" until the Romans totally destroyed Jerusalem, I think in 135 C.E. After the Romans lost control of the territory, the name "Palestine" fell into disuse, or was inconsistently applied, until the British arbitrarily resurrected the Roman name "Palestine" when they received the "Palestine Mandate" through the League of Nations. Thus there is no historical accuracy to any claim of a Jewish rabbi from Nazareth being a "Palestinian" whatsoever. He walked the Earth prior to the several Roman attempts at genocide and subsequent attempt at erasing the term Judea from the world's lexicon. If the man even existed, he was a Jewish patriot who died like many Jewish patriots, at the hands of Rome. Rome ruled the world much as the Nazis did. 

Up until Yasir Arafat decided to co-opt the then unused name (since Israel's independence) the term "Palestinian" always meant Jew.

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## ElyaKatz

> Do you think that Palestinians are "beast walking on two legs"?  According to Samuel Friedman, in an article in USA Today, he said that the Palestinians are only allowed 5 gallons of water a day per person. Do you think that it is a fair way to treat humans? Why do you portray all Palestinians as fizehnishes? Why do you make them live like animals in refugee camps?


To your accusations of abuse towards the Arabs/Muslims living in Eretz Israel -- the name of the region long before Islam came into being --

YouTube - Shedding a Light on Gaza

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## lester1/2jr

> Was There a Massacre at Deir Yassin?


do you believe there was a historical event in germany called the  holocaust?

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## ElyaKatz

> do you believe there was a historical event in germany called the  holocaust?


No. I believe there was an historic event in Europe called the Holocaust. Some of it even stretched down into Asia Minor, under the direction of Hajj Amin al-Husayni, who later assisted Hitler in devising what they proudly named "The Final Solution.

"Facts are stubborn things." - John Adams, second President of the united States of America

It would be more helpful and more accurate to attribute your quote. The quote you have cited is the title of an article by Dr. Francisco Gil-White, a scholar who originally approached the topic of the Middle East biased towards the Arab narrative. In the article, which I cited and linked in a previous post and will once again, Dr. Gil-White lays out evidence that the alleged massacre did not happen, that the claims made by the Arabs were war propaganda, subsequently picked up and used for political purposes by the Labor Zionists, who hated the Revisionist Zionists to the point of being willing to shoot at them and murder them (*Altalena Affair*). No love is lost between me and the Labor Zionist's philosophies.

*Was There a Massacre at Deir Yassin? The pro-PLO camp says yes; the historical documentation says otherwise*

*Preface*

_In any conflict, we can expect the interested parties to say that their opponents are bad, so finding the balance of justice requires that we go beyond the mutual accusations of the participants.

In the Arab-Israeli conflict, supporters of the PLO charge that the "Palestinian refugee problem" stems from supposed civilian massacres carried out by Jewish forces, which created a panic resulting in the flight of the Arab population. The argument rests almost exclusively on the repetition of the allegation that Jewish forces perpetrated a massacre of Arab civilians at Deir Yassin.

Since the entire argument rests heavily on Deir Yassin, what will be left of the accusation against the Jews if Arab civilians were not massacred at Deir Yassin?_

If you narrow the margins to 1" in Word, the article is a little over 12 pages long, with 6 pages of footnotes. Anyone genuinely interested in the truth should considering reading it. Accordingly then, on page 8 we read:

_"What Milstein is saying is that because there was a sharp political rivalry between leftist MAPAM and the Irgun, the accusation that the Irgun had committed a massacre at Deir Yassin was convenient for MAPAM.

The first thing that must be pointed out is what this implies about the culture and ethics of the Jewish forces and people. If some Jews could remove other Jews as political rivals by accusing them of having committed a massacre against Arab civilians, this means that the Jewish side considered the targeting of Arab civilians a tremendous crime. It is worth pausing to fully absorb this. And, once absorbed, it is worth returning to this: Azzam Pasha told us above how the Arabs felt about their Nazi-led forces killing Jewish civilians: this was the goal.

Perhaps the above paragraph should be read once again. It's the sort of thing that produces Enlightenment."_

Contrary to the claims of those who propose there was a massacre at Deir Yassin, the Holocaust is:
documented by independent third parties, with legal affidavits (by US military personnel) of proof of widespread murder, torture, starvation etc, 
admitted to by the instigating nation, Germany, 
witnessed to and attested to by the balance of Europe who's compatriots suffered alongside the Jews, they being targeted as well, the Jews being especially targeted with total annihilation, 
witnessed and attested to by the few European nations who did not buckle under Nazi pressure, but assisted and rescued their Jews.

The testimony against the Nazis of widespread atrocities against innocent civilians, the Jews being their special target as a matter of policy by so many people before during and after WWII, official and otherwise, as well as the reams of paperwork, multitude of photos and movies in the Nazi's own archives shows an obsessive glee on the Nazi's part in murdering Jews. All of it is both overwhelming and horrifying. Hitler, even at the cost of losing WWII, was determined not to lose his war against the Jews.

The existence of the Holocaust as reported by these and other sources is irrefutable. Those who deny the extent of the damage done in the Holocaust to many peoples and nations, and especially the Jewish people in proportion to their numbers, is to venture into the realm of the absurd. It is also to flirt with subsequent holocausts, of other weak, or unpopular peoples as well as the Jewish people -- yet again. Such denials are irresponsible, and give future excuses to beastly megalomaniac leaders who love the taste of blood, and who will stop at nothing to gain the power they crave. They will know they can perpetrate similar horrors on their chosen victims with impunity in a climate where the Holocaust is denied or minimized.

In light of the facts, I do not believe that a massacre occurred in Deir Yassin. And no, I do not question the fact of the Holocaust. I am too well read on both subjects to be dissuaded of my opinion on either. And you? 

Holocaust Researcher Father Patrick Dubois

*Memorial de Shoah*

*Holocaust by Bullets*

Suggested further audios and reading:

*Why do so many people hate the Jews?*

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## revolutionisnow

First of all, the "holocaust of bullets" to be blamed on the Germans is pure nonsense. He is going around unearthing mass graves from the Bolshevik slaughters.

So what is your opinion on the documentaries @ www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com ?

"The Final Solution" was an emigration program. 

YouTube - Understanding Anti Semitism: Why Do Some People Dislike Jews part1

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## ElyaKatz

> First of all, the "holocaust of bullets" to be blamed on the Germans is pure nonsense. He is going around unearthing mass graves from the Bolshevik slaughters.


He is also interviewing eye witnesses. He ascertains whether a grave is a Jewish grave or not via several overlapping methods. His approach is scientific in nature, treating the graves as carefully as an archeological dig. His purpose is to give these people a respectful burial. I wrote a piece at my site about his work. Coming from a Catholic, his work deserves more than a cursory glance.

*A Poke in the Eye to Holocaust Deniers*




> So what is your opinion on the documentaries @ www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com ?


No opinion. I might look at it sometime. I have a long list of reading material. I've already agreed to read one site you recommended, which is all I will commit to for the moment. But I will keep this in mind.




> "The Final Solution" was an emigration program.


Originally, until Hajj Amin al-Husayni met with Hitler and encouraged him to ramp his plans up the genocide. I realize the Labor Zionists also cooperated on one level with the Nazis, in order to drive assimilated and wealthy German Jews to Eretz Israel for their sick little utopian experiment. Revisionist Zionists had only the best interests of all Jews at heart. I would have joined the Revisionists or the Mizrachi's. I am repulsed by most of what the Labor Zionists did against their fellow Jews, and what they stood for. However, I keep in mind that HKB"H uses everything, and in the end, His way will prevail.

*The responsibility of the mainstream (Labor Zionist) Israeli leaders during the Shoah ('Holocaust')*

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## revolutionisnow

> He is also interviewing eye witnesses. He ascertains whether a grave is a Jewish grave or not via several overlapping methods. His approach is scientific in nature, treating the graves as carefully as an archeological dig. His purpose is to give these people a respectful burial. I wrote a piece at my site about his work. Coming from a Catholic, his work deserves more than a cursory glance.
> 
> *A Poke in the Eye to Holocaust Deniers*
> 
> 
> 
> No opinion. I might look at it sometime. I have a long list of reading material. I've already agreed to read one site you recommended, which is all I will commit to for the moment. But I will keep this in mind.
> 
> 
> ...


He is now a Catholic, but he is ethnically Jewish, so yes it is very biased. And he is interviewing elderly people who were young children at the time. Why didn't their government, press, or anyone else speak out about this before? The time period was at the end of the war when Germany was struggling and losing, yet they want us to believe they spent lots of time and man hours searching the countryside for jews?

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## ElyaKatz

> He is now a Catholic, but he is ethnically Jewish, so yes it is very biased. And he is interviewing elderly people who were young children at the time. Why didn't their government, press, or anyone else speak out about this before? The time period was at the end of the war when Germany was struggling and losing, yet they want us to believe they spent lots of time and man hours searching the countryside for jews?


So, will you only believe a Jewish convert to Catholicism if they are antisemitic? What's your point? The man is doing a thorough search.

RIN...I have concluded that you are not willing to look at any other perspective in an honest and open-minded manner than that which you are naturally biased towards. That's fine. It's your right. I have my bias too. But I am at least willing to look at your links and read them carefully.

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## Dr.3D

> So, will you only believe a *Jewish convert to Catholicism* if they are antisemitic?~Snip


Wow, when I read that, "Once a steak, now a fish.  Once a steak, now a fish." ran though my mine.

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## ElyaKatz

> Wow, when I read that, "Once a steak, now a fish.  Once a steak, now a fish." ran though my mine.


ROFL!!! It's a good joke. 

I don't find any evidence on the net re Father Dubois alleged Jewish ancestry however. RIN...please provide links, as I would be interested. I made the point in another post today, that Jewish ancestry (or not does) not a philo-semite or anti-semite make. There are all kinds.

I did find an interesting article at *The Huffington Post*.

_"His grandfather (and other relatives) were imprisoned, eventually being sent to the Ukraine, witnessing the horrors at Rawa-Ruska where thousands of Jews died. He eventually told his grandson what he had seen, as a way of downplaying his own suffering. It was during a visit to the site of his grandfather's wartime incarceration that Father Desbois posed the local mayor a simple question: "Where are the bodies of the Jews?" The politician said he did not know - an answer the priest found impossible to believe. Returning the next year, there was a new mayor, who this time took the inquisitive Frenchmen out in to the forest where 100 villagers were waiting to tell him of the horrors they had seen played out there among the birch trees."_

I only skimmed it, and several other articles or posts on Father DuBois, but I did not find anything, not even on the *VNN*, which is obvious antisemitc, which claims he is of Jewish heritage. The VNN merely stated their opinion that he was a fraud (they called him a Shabbos goy) in there eyes. _Really surprising._ 

They shouldn't knock Shabbos goyim. Those were voluntary, paid positions. What the hell is wrong with different religions getting along and accommodating each other? Ah...I am questioning the wisdom and erudite insights and amazing internal consistencies of the VNN. 

Eizeh chuztpah.

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## amy31416

Apparently the only issues in your life, Katz, is being Jewish and Israel.

Get a $#@!ing grip, there's a whole world out there, and very little of it cares a bit about Israel, unless Israel has committed some great horror on them. Unfortunately, my country has been usurped by those who care more about Israel than America and we're losing every last thing that is important to this country because of political correctness and fake loyalty to Israel. 

Pretty good scheme. Gotta hand it to you. It's also sick and self-destructive.

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## YumYum

> Apparently the only issues in your life, Katz, is being Jewish and Israel.
> 
> Get a $#@!ing grip, there's a whole world out there, and very little of it cares a bit about Israel, unless Israel has committed some great horror on them. Unfortunately, my country has been usurped by those who care more about Israel than America and we're losing every last thing that is important to this country because of political correctness and fake loyalty to Israel. 
> 
> Pretty good scheme. Gotta hand it to you. It's also sick and self-destructive.


It makes you wonder if the Zionists are running scared. Are Ron Paul supporters a threat? Zionist apologists never admit to doing anything wrong; they take accountability for nothing. Everything they do is justified. They have no conscience, no feeling of remorse. They only focus on themselves and how they are the victims. This is typical behavior of a sociopath. Thank G-d for Jews like Norm Finklestein, Noam Chomsky, Amy Goodman and both of my great -grandmothers.

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## ElyaKatz

BS"D




> It makes you wonder if the Zionists are running scared. Are Ron Paul supporters a threat?


I represent no one but myself YumYum. I write what I write on my own time, out of love for my people, out of concern for non-Jews who might be misled by liars. Are you saying that Ron Paul supporters are anti-Israel YumYum? Because it was my understanding from what the moderators have written on this site, and from some of the members who've written me in private, that the anti-Israel crowd here is a decided, though active minority.




> Zionist apologists never admit to doing anything wrong; they take accountability for nothing. Everything they do is justified. They have no conscience, no feeling of remorse. They only focus on themselves and how they are the victims. This is typical behavior of a sociopath.


Insults, the last refuge of a lost argument.

_"If practically every century there have been great massacres of Jews in the Western world, then the least risky prediction that a historian can make for the twenty-first century is that there will be another -- without even looking at the evidence for current trends. The burden of proof is therefore on those who believe this cannot happen again: they will have to document why the world is now different.

This is a burden they cannot meet.

The hostile propaganda that got hundreds of thousands of Jews persecuted and/or killed in Tsarist Russia, and then between 5 and 6 million Jews exterminated in WWII, is once again being energetically spread by the Western mass media."_

Dr. Francisco Gil-White, historian
*The modern "Protocols of Zion"*




> Thank G-d for Jews like Norm Finklestein, Noam Chomsky, Amy Goodman and both of my great -grandmothers.


If the lies against the Jews, lies against not only the Jews of Israel, but American and European Jews (what is left of them) come back to bite you YumYum, you've been warned. And if another conflagration against your people and mine happens again in this century, (maybe sooner than either of us know) you can go to your grave, maybe an early one?? at the hands of antisemites, knowing that at least you pleased Norm Finkelsteing, Noam Chomsky, Amy Goodman and both of your great-grandmothers while remaining true to your high moral standards of tolerance, even tolerance to those who would harm you.  

Then again, if it's only the Jews of Israel who suffer this time, then you can breathe a sigh of self-righteous relief.

----------


## ElyaKatz

BS"D

Amy with the numbers:




> Apparently the only issues in your life, Katz, is being Jewish and Israel.


I care about the truth.




> Get a $#@!ing grip, there's a whole world out there, and very little of it cares a bit about Israel, unless Israel has committed some great horror on them.


The fact that little tiny Israel makes the news in this country nearly every day, that the US State Department sends men to Israel to check on Jewish villagers to see if they have the chutzpah to add porches to their homes, or remodel a kitchen in East Jerusalem, or add a bedroom for a new baby, while men, women and children are massacred in China and Darfur, while 8 year old girls are married off the 50 year old men in Saudi Arabia...that tells me that the world is paying attention to Israel. I agree with you though. Priorities are messed up.




> Unfortunately, my country has been usurped by those who care more about Israel than America and we're losing every last thing that is important to this country because of political correctness and fake loyalty to Israel. 
> 
> Pretty good scheme. Gotta hand it to you. It's also sick and self-destructive.


*What is AIPAC for?* Read it sometime. You might be surprised. That you actually believe what you believe about AIPAC tells me something. You get your information from a surface reading of the MSM, or else from sources who claim they are alternative, but who are only presenting you with repackaged MSM boloney.

Your beliefs that the Jews, oh, excuse me "Zionists", 12 million people spread around the world maximum (.02% of the world population) these being mostly poor Jews carrying little to no influence with anyone beyond their families -- the idea that you actually think such a small number of people control the media, US policy and _all that jazz_, is absurd. It's worse than that. It's a lie and lies imprison people's minds. Even worse-- lies believed make people ugly, unpleasant and small-minded, and unable to defend themselves from their true enemies.

So, I will write about the truth as I see it and back my claims to that truth with facts from reliable sources, as I have done thus far. It's a free country. I'll do it here and I will do it at my blog. If you don't like it, that's sort of your problem.

Read something besides what you already agree with Amy. It seems to me you're lacking in historical perspective.

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## revolutionisnow

> So, will you only believe a Jewish convert to Catholicism if they are antisemitic? What's your point? The man is doing a thorough search.
> 
> RIN...I have concluded that you are not willing to look at any other perspective in an honest and open-minded manner than that which you are naturally biased towards. That's fine. It's your right. I have my bias too. But I am at least willing to look at your links and read them carefully.


Sorry, I don't like for people to pee on my leg and tell me its raining. You don't have to search very far for his history, leftist wikipedia will suffice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Desbois

He isn't doing a search, if he was doing a search he would be talking about the millions of people the Jewish Bolsheviks murdered and starved to death in the area. The official mainline gas chamber stories are falling to pieces upon actual investigation and he is trying to trump up some new stories. 




> It makes you wonder if the Zionists are running scared. Are Ron Paul supporters a threat? Zionist apologists never admit to doing anything wrong; they take accountability for nothing. Everything they do is justified. They have no conscience, no feeling of remorse. They only focus on themselves and how they are the victims. This is typical behavior of a sociopath. Thank G-d for Jews like Norm Finklestein, Noam Chomsky, Amy Goodman and both of my great -grandmothers.


The greeting Olmert recently received at the University in Chicago makes me think so and really gives hope. My only fear is that their other movement, communism, is gaining strength. It really is a shame that there is such a short list of Jews that have been honest enough to speak out against atrocities no matter who they are committed by. These people are all chastised for it though. Some of these other people seem to want to defend the indefensible and I really am amazed at exactly how much they will try to justify. I figured nobody would try to defend the burning down of hundreds of olive trees- the Palestinians livelihood- but sure enough they tried to. This is the ugly face of zionism though. Out of sight out of mind- but once people are confronted with the actual facts it is hard to support such a racist, supremacist ideology. 




> BS"D
> 
> Amy with the numbers:
> 
> *What is AIPAC for?* Read it if you think you can handle a perspective other than  your own.
> 
> I care about the truth. 
> 
> Your beliefs about the Jews, 12 million people spread around the world (.02% of the world population) these being mostly poor Jews with little to no influence with anyone beyond their families -- the fact that you actually think such a small number of people the world, the media, US policy and _all that jazz_, is absurd. It's worse than that. It's a lie and lies imprison people. Worse -- lies believed make people ugly, unpleasant and small-minded, and unable to defend themselves from their true enemies.
> ...


How is it a lie? Since you say it is? That's a strong accusation. Would you like to be presented with some concrete facts? Also, who are the "true enemies"? What is AIPAC for? It's a lobbying group, and like other lobbying groups- they lobby and pervert our government for funding,favors,regulations,etc, that they would not otherwise get. A few months ago they were able to make a spying case "just go away"- would you not think it was a problem if any other country not only spied on the US, but also had the power to make the trial go away once they were caught? Why do so many people from all branches of government attend the AIPAC conference, where they listen to and pander to the invasion of whatever country Israel has next on their checklist?

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## ElyaKatz

> Sorry, I don't like for people to pee on my leg and tell me its raining. You don't have to search very far for his history, leftist wikipedia will suffice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Desbois


I didn't think to look at Wikipedia. Kept combing google. Thanks. I use Wikipedia, but for some reason, it just did not occur to me. I was writing a lot today, and am tired out. I still don't see anything that says he was originally of Jewish origin, not that it casts more or less credit on his work.




> He isn't doing a search, if he was doing a search he would be talking about the millions of people the Jewish Bolsheviks murdered and starved to death in the area.


He is talking to eye-witnesses, most of whom were children or teenagers, of atrocities, and yes, he is focusing on Jewish murders. I don't know that he is excluding non-Jews. There were certainly many victims from many ethnicities and religions. 

Here's the problem. The whole conflict is so polarized, that no one trusts anyone's sources at all. I suffer from the same thing. But I am going to read that link of yours. I see my sources being discredited out of hand, because the ideology doesn't agree, and they are not crack-pots. I don't know if this Father DuBois is or not, but I cite good sources overall. I read history books from solid historians, and I read political books written by politicians I don't agree with, such as Shimon Peres. He's a nutcase, totally unrealistic. And he's in the pocket of the Vatican. But I read his stuff anyone. I want to know what the opposition believes too.




> The official mainline gas chamber stories are falling to pieces upon actual investigation and he is trying to trump up some new stories.


Okay, well, do you have links to back this position, or is it your interpretation?? Just asking. Interpretations are certainly fine by me. It is impossible to be objective about this issue, for anyone. It's just that I'd like to know. I'm not going to climb on you and mock you for having a bias. I already know yours and you know mine. Let's just agree to respect our differences. 




> Some of these other people seem to want to defend the indefensible and I really am amazed at exactly how much they will try to justify. I figured nobody would try to defend the burning down of hundreds of olive trees- the Palestinians livelihood- but sure enough they tried to.


The Arabs have done the same exact thing to Jewish farmers, and proudly for years. I have helped put out the fires myself. I've listened to the tales of theft. It's war. It's ugly all around. The War of Independence never ended. It just goes hot and cold, it waxes and wanes.




> This is the ugly face of zionism though. Out of sight out of mind- but once people are confronted with the actual facts it is hard to support such a racist, supremacist ideology.


And Islamic supremacism isn't racist? Do you recall what the Arab armies proudly stated as they planned to invade Israel after Ben-Gurion declared independence??
*
Azzam Pasha, Secretary General of the Arab League, promised:*

_"This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades." -- Howard M Sachar, A History of Israel (New York: Knopf, 1979) p 333_

And such words continue against the Jews of Israel and the Jews around the world, to this day, in the Arab media. Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah is hysterically funny to me, even though I do not agree with his views, until he starts talking about how he welcomes the idea of the Jews of the world returning to Israel, so they will be easier for the Muslims to kill. (murder) Then it's not so funny for me.

There are 1.65 Muslims in the world (or 1.20 depending on who you cite). There are 12, maybe 13 million Jews. The Muslim world has repeatedly called for the annihilation of the Jewish people, not just in Israel, but all over the the world. The fact that these threats have been uttered for hundreds of years now, not only in Europe, but also in Muslim lands, against the Jews -- don't you think it might be what's behind the defensiveness of the Jews?? 

I see your arguments against Jewish self-defense, your allegations of "atrocities" first of all, as exaggerations, and second as a reversal of causality. The Muslims threaten the Jews, the Jews fight back, then the Muslims cry atrocity because the Jews actually win.




> Originally Posted by ElyaKatz 
> BS"D
> 
> Amy with the numbers:
> 
> What is AIPAC for? Read it if you think you can handle a perspective other than your own.
> 
> I care about the truth.
> 
> ...






> How is it a lie? Since you say it is? That's a strong accusation.


I was replying to Amy, first of all RIN, who is rarely anything less than emotional and offensive, replying to my posts more like an attack dog than as a debater.




> Would you like to be presented with some concrete facts?


Links are and have been provided in many, many of my posts, including the post to Amy which you quoted RIN, for anyone who wants to do some honest research. 





> Also, who are the "true enemies"?


In my opinion, liars who try to shift the blame for what is going on in this world to the Jews, or the Zionists. The peace of the world does not depend on whether the Jews of Israel are adding a new bathroom to their apartment in Jerusalem. Not even if olive trees are cut down or burned down. As I have said, Jews have been suffering from this for decades. And they have had land stolen from them by Arabs for thousands of years, including, but not limited to Eretz Israel. 

While folks are distracted by the absurdity of such a small, beleaguered people sneaking about in smokey backrooms, plotting the overtaking of the world, freedoms are taken away by the ruling elites. There are many such groups who benefit from hiding their activities in this way. Those who wish to remain in the shadows usually have the money to make sure their names never get in the news. In my opinion though, whoever these groups are, they have a vested interest in keeping the peoples of the Middle East chained up in their ancient conflicts. Jews and Arabs have this epic battle going on, have since time immemorial, since Ishmael and Yitzchak. And we are so locked into it, we do not see that others use our passions for their own greed. We need to get wiser.




> What is AIPAC for? It's a lobbying group, and like other lobbying groups- they lobby and pervert our government for funding,favors,regulations,etc, that they would not otherwise get. A few months ago they were able to make a spying case "just go away"- would you not think it was a problem if any other country not only spied on the US, but also had the power to make the trial go away once they were caught? Why do so many people from all branches of government attend the AIPAC conference, where they listen to and pander to the invasion of whatever country Israel has next on their checklist?


I don't agree with the idea of foreign lobbies. I don't like the idea of multinational corporations, or at least not how the concept is utilized now. AIPAC is not the bogeyman that you and some others at this site seem to think it is. It does not enjoy the broad support of "right wing" Israelis -- you know, the ones who want to keep Judea and Samaria in Jewish hands. Nor is it the largest threat we face from foreign interests. 

 The Saudis have infiltrated into our systems of education and finance in more insidious and far reaching ways than AIPAC. At least AIPAC openly states it's purpose. And really, if you read the link, they accomplish more for the Arabs in Eretz Israel than they do for the Jews. 

Maybe you are Muslim and so, of course, you can't or won't hear this because it offends you. I understand. Foreigners have insulted and dominated Muslim lands as well over history. But Muslims/Arabs are not the only people of the Middle East.There have always been Jews too. There are Iranians, and Kurds, Arab Christians, to name a few. And no one gets along particularly well. These people need to hear each other out and learn to work together or they will continue to be dominated by foreign interests. The US government is not innocent in this.

But back America, since that is our main concern at this site. I have lots of links which indicate what I am saying is true re Saudi influence. I am going to go over them and read them and organize them before I use them. All you have to do for yourself is google "saudi influence american institutions" or "saudi influence american education". Try "saudi title VI education" and see what you get. I didn't try that one yet. I have found pages of information, and I'm sure you will too. These Saudi princes own huge estates in Colorado, for example, and pal around with American politicians, who they have in their pockets.

If all the foreign influence ends on every level, not just lobbies, that is the only way to keep America for Americans. I'm reading a lot of information about Iran, have for sometime now. They had foreigners running so many things for so long, hundreds of years. That's how the Iranians lost their nation, and we are fast heading in that direction.

We can only rein all this garbage in by holding our politicians feet to the fire, and insisting they honor their oaths of office, to uphold our US and State constitutions. Many of our "public servants" have forgotten who the master is and who the servant is. They often don't even have their oaths on file as they are required to by law, wonder why?? That is what initially got me interested in Ron Paul. I knew how far we had strayed from following our respective constitutions, and he was insisting that we had to return to our basic law. That is where we start.

It's not as interesting as blaming Zionists for everything that goes wrong. Takes time to study up on the exact details of how our government works, on Article III constitutional courts, why the only one left is the US Supreme Court, which Supreme Court cases helped bring us down the wrong path and why, how did the Civil War effect the various branches of government, even to this day, and on and on. It takes late nights, reading dry legal material, learning to use a law dictionary, figuring out which law dictionary is the best for one who is interested in how our constitution is supposed to work. It takes time and effort, and it's not light reading.

----------


## revolutionisnow

The Saudis have infiltrated our banking systems and education system? Really? Which of these banks is Saudi owned? Which one of these people are not really Jewish but Saudi? 

1) Ben S. Bernanke: Chairman of the Board of Governors of Federal Reserve. Term ends 2020.

2) Donald L. Kohn: Vice Chairman of the Board of Governors of Federal Reserve. Term ends 2016.

3) Randall S. Kroszner: Member of Board of Governors of Federal Reserve.

4) Frederic S. Mishkin: Member of Board of Governors of Federal Reserve. Term ends 2014.

5) Alan Greenspan: Advisor to Board of Governors of Federal Reserve. Recent Chairman.

&

$1. Rothschild Banks of London and Berlin

$2. Lazard Brothers Banks of Paris

$3. Israel Moses Seif Banks of Italy

$4. Warburg Bank of Hamburg and Amsterdam

$5. Lehman Brothers of NY

$6. Kuhn, Loeb Bank of NY (Now Shearson American Express)

$7. Goldman, Sachs of NY

$8. National Bank of Commerce NY/Morgan Guaranty Trust (J. P. Morgan Bank - Equitable Life - Levi P. Morton are principal shareholders)

$9. Hanover Trust of NY (William and David Rockefeller & Chase National Bank NY are principal shareholders).

As far as education systems, which ones are run by Saudis? Which agenda of the Saudis are they pushing onto our youth? (you know- like communism and the holocaust)

AIPAC and other Zionist groups like PNAC actually help the Arabs? How does invading and putting sanctions on people help them?

While we are discussing facts, lets put these out there also
At least 139 of the Forbes 400 are Jewish
http://blogs.jta.org/philanthropy/ar...400-are-jewish

How Jewish is Hollywood?
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...4676183.column

Regarding media ownership
http://www.rense.com/general85/ownh.htm
http://www.rense.com/general60/stun.htm

Regarding Education/Special interest groups
http://www.jewishtribalreview.org/coopt.htm

----------


## ElyaKatz

> The Saudis have infiltrated our banking systems and education system? Really? Which of these banks is Saudi owned?


As far as Saudi or Muslim control, I gave you the search terms. 

Most Jews in this country are secular. They are Jewish by parentage only. Or by father only, thus not even Jewish according to Judaism. The only Judaism that exists in my world and in reality, is Orthodox Judaism. All other forms are a poor imitation, merely social clubs. They bear little resemblance to Jews who observe the Torah and it's high level of morality. Thus, they have little or no loyalty to Israel, as can be proven by their political statements. I would venture a guess that most of the men you listed have little or no loyalty to Israel as well, which gives lie to the argument of a Zionist conspiracy among American Jewish leaders to influence American institutions. 

I would further venture a guess that most of the men you have listed have no religious loyalty. Attending "Temple" is easy and proves nothing. How they live their lives is the proof. What are their ethics? Othodox rabbis teach their people that we must obey the law of the land, and be loyal primarily loyal to the nations in which we live. That does not mean we can't be concerned about Israel. But as long as we live in America, or first loyalty must be to America.

The same utter lack of loyalty to any nation or religion will be true of non-Jews who might be involved in any nefarious activities which would undermine American sovereignty. A little research will most likely produce many gentiles who can be similarly implicated.

Offhand, I can think of a few: Ford, Rockefeller, Turner...

For your consideration (and from a Christian site no less):

*THE JEWISH-CONSPIRACY THEORY OF THE BOLSHEVIK REVOLUTION*

But believe what you will. If you are determined to believe in racist ideologies which promote a modern day "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" conspiracy theory, no one will be able to persuade you. It's a matter of the heart.

I know there are good Muslims and bad, good Catholics and bad, good Protestants and bad, good Jews and bad. I do not implicate Saudi leadership because I believe most Muslims to be violent or wishing ill on America or Americans. Many of them came to America to escape the tyrannies they were born under. I implicate Saudi leadership because most Muslim leaders in the Middle East are tyrants who abuse their people. And US leaders enable them.

I could produce an equally long or longer list of Jewish Nobel Laureates, doctors who have cured diseases, inventors, comedians, many contributors to the good of mankind. We do tend to be overachievers, that much I will say.

I don't have much time to really get into this until next week. See you then.

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## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## ElyaKatz

> Damn facts are such a distraction to propaganda.  Surely there are people diligently working to put an end to citing facts because people who post facts must have a mental illness not to believe the propaganda.


Facts taken totally out of context. There you go again, not bothering to do your research. One can splice and dice and come up with any theory one wants. But empirical evidence does not back up your racist -- I mean bigoted -- ideologies.

----------


## Bman

> And US leaders enable them.


Yup we empower the nutcases, and then sell you guys (Israeli's, maybe not you specifically, but your brethren) guns to defend yourselves.  My question you may be able to answer is when is the Israeli government gonna tell the U.S.A to f*%k off?

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## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## ElyaKatz

> Yup we empower the nutcases, and then sell you guys (Israeli's, maybe not you specifically, but your brethren) guns to defend yourselves.  My question you may be able to answer is when is the Israeli government gonna tell the U.S.A to f*%k off?


Both countries are enmeshed with one another in a sick sort of death grip, kind of like a dysfunctional family in my opinion. They need to operate like the separate, sovereign nations that they are. 

Might want to consider reading the following book: *The Late Great State of Israel: How Enemies Within and Without Threaten the Jewish Nation's Survival by Aaron Klein*

It's on my wish list.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Jews claim their right to the land supersedes the rights of people that have inhabited the land for several previous generations.


Your history is way off on this claim. That's just as one point. I am tired of going around in circles about this with you, and I simply don't have the time. If you ever tried to read an actual book on Jewish history and/or Zionism, I mean a history book from actual historians who provide real data to back their claims, then you might see my point.

Jews figure prominently in all professions. This is due to our unique circumstances in history (landless, excluded from guilds etc.) and our historic emphasis on literacy for the great proportion of our people since the earliest times, and our close-knit families, which tends to help our children get a good start in life. Thus, there are a lot of Jewish lawyers, doctors, bankers, successful business owners of all types, an astonishing array of inventors, researchers who cured illnesses or invented lifesaving vaccines, Nobel laureates, all out of proportion to our numbers. It's funky I know. It doesn't have anything to do with "race", as being Jewish is usually but not always familial in nature, but it is not a race.

Our successes educationally and in business have to do with Jewish culture, which often hangs on for generations, even after Torah Judaism has been abandoned in a given family. But the culture has been developed via the Torah and it's priorities. When gentiles apply the same principles to their lives, they experience the same successes.

So there's the big "conspiracy". Try it. You might like it.

----------


## YumYum

> Both countries are enmeshed with one another in a sick sort of death grip, kind of like a dysfunctional family in my opinion. They need to operate like the separate, sovereign nations that they are. 
> 
> Might want to consider reading the following book: *The Late Great State of Israel: How Enemies Within and Without Threaten the Jewish Nation's Survival by Aaron Klein*
> 
> It's on my wish list.


Where does the Likhud Party stand with regards to this New World Order that everyone is talking about? If it is true that we are going to have a NWO, will Israel be a part of it, or will Israel resist?

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## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## ElyaKatz

> ... Not to mention you already admitted the Jews are not a race in a previous thread.


My bad. I was thinking last night, I should change the word to racist to "bigoted". Okay? So when I am addressing the issue Israel/Judaism/Jews/Zionism, and  I mistakenly use the word "racist", in relation to views about the same, I mean bigoted.

The Protocols garbage is being resurrected in modern form by a few very active members. That's why I mentioned it. See *"The modern 'Protocols of Zion' "*

You also stated in a previous thread that you don't have to prove "$#@!". 

The burden of proof does rest on those who would claim that the Jewish people are not the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, since this has been accepted fact for thousands of years, is recognized by world leaders, historians, writers, politicians -- all throughout history, even many who have no affection for the Jewish people. It is also recognized in international law. 

Those who make the allegation, in this case, alleging that the Jewish people "stole land" from the Arabs, have the burden of proof. You make the claim or allegation, you get to prove it. Another maxim of law.

I'm not trying to change your mind. A person has to be willing to have a rational argument in order to be open to rational discourse. See, quote below in my signature. But there are plenty of other people here who are willing to look at both sides of the argument. I'm just here, letting people know there is more to look at then what those supposedly _greedy, One-world loving, evil Zionists_ are up to. There's enough of that boloney here. I intend to put the material up that I consider credible to counter said boloney. 

Might be that Jews actually just want to be able to live in their historic homeland in peace. And it might be that the Muslim world just can't countenance former dhimmis who they've abused for thousands of years, actually claiming sovereignty. Could it possibly be that simple?

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## jfriedman

This is the thread that doesn't end,
Yes, it goes on and on, my friend.
Some people started posting in it, not knowing what it was,
and they'll continue posting in it forever just because...

----------


## Bman

> I just wish we'd spend more time finding common ground with our fellow human-beings rather than trying to determine what belongs to who when and why.


Sympathetic to your reasoning, but rationally cannot believe your desire to happen until the latter is resolved.  We've always fought over property.  It's a quite natural habit in the animal kingdom, and probably could be called part of natural law.  We will always fight.  The question is how we make sure that people like you and me, who want no part of war, are not implicated by those involved?  It's a really sad situation to be in.

As the great Doctor says: Peace sells.  This is our salvation and can only happen one person at a time.

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## ElyaKatz

> Well, I'm a reform bukharian (so you probably won't like me as I am guessing you're a super-strict Orthodox *maybe go the Kahanist way?*)


What is a reform buhkarian??  Whatever it is, I doubt it would cause me to dislike you. I am Orthodox. The strictness? Let's say, we're a work in progress.

As for the rest of your post, vis a vis US policy towards Israel, you might consider reading the writings of Dr. Francisco Gil-White. Such articles as:

*Is the US an Ally of Israel?*

I think the US invests money in all sides in order to keep the region destabilized. It's in their interests in order to keep their power base in the region, and good for arms sales (American economy). The US government does not have the best interests of the American people at heart, or any other "little people", Arab, Jew or whatever. They have their own elitist interests at heart. I make a distinction between the US and America.




> I think we both know with Likud (no offense to Livni and friends) running the show if Iran really was a threat they would have been neutralized by us by now.


I think perhaps Israel is just weighing it's options carefully before it acts. 




> Anyhow, I don't know about you other than your internet friend, but I know lots of amazing people of the islamic faith, and do not see them as my common enemy.  Sure the extremists want to burn me alive, but so lots of people.  I just wish we'd spend more time finding common ground with our fellow human-beings rather than trying to determine what belongs to who when and why.


I do not see Muslims as my common enemy. I see radical Islam as the current enemy to any peace-loving people, including moderate Muslims. 

Abraham is a member of this site. We disagree on a lot of issues, but we bring our facts and sources to the posts, not personal insults. The fact that most Muslims are wonderful people is irrelevant to whether radical Islam is a threat to the world. During WWII, there were many lovely Germans too. And of those lovely Germans who chose not to stand against the Nazi's made themselves irrelevant to the issues of the day. Same goes for radical Islam in these days.

----------


## ElyaKatz

BS"D

Just to clarify:

Being in favor of Israel's right to exist and right to self-defense does not equal being in favor of US foreign aid to Israel. I am not in favor of US foreign aid to any nation.

Being against radical Muslims who want to usurp the US constitution with sharia, and who are determined to destroy the nation of Israel does not mean I hate Muslims.

I would not have liked the Nazis either, but I do have German friends, have visited Germany and found it a lovely place with very polite, lovely people.

I also dislike the damage done by hurricanes, however, I think rain is generally a good idea, within limits.

Recognizing the historical fact that there were no Arabs called "palestinians" prior to the 1960's (64-67) when the term was re-applied to Arabs who lived in the former Palestine Mandate does not mean I think there were no Arabs in the region prior to 1948. 

The fact that there were Arabs in the region does not mean that the Jews of Israel stole their land from them. If one is going to talk about the "right of return" for Arabs, then one must also compensate the Jews of Israel and their descendants, who's property was stolen from them, forcing them to move to Israel, in many cases with only the clothes on their backs.

YouTube - The Forgotten Refugees - The Only Authentic Version - Part 1

See, it's all context.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Where does the Likhud Party stand with regards to this New World Order that everyone is talking about? If it is true that we are going to have a NWO, will Israel be a part of it, or will Israel resist?


How about if you ask them? Did I ever claim to speak for the Likud?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> You have intentionally not answered the covenant question.  But you did say that no gentile can offer superior interpretation of the Torah to a Jew but failed to offer one.


I don't claim to be a Torah scholar. It's way out of my league. You might do well with a measure of humility on that count too. Gentiles do not have the authority to interpret what being Jewish and Judaism is to a Jew. I've made that point. I never claimed Gentiles can't reach a high level of Torah knowledge and skills in interpreting the Torah. They can't dictate to Jews re Jewish law and how it is applied.

Now, if a gentile takes the time and effort to sincerely convert under the supervision of a Bais Din, with the proper amount of effort applied in study, that former gentile, now a full Jew, can reach very high levels of smicha (rabbinic ordination) and become judges who pasken (decide on Jewish law).

----------


## ElyaKatz

> you can't say russian jews have a right to israel on the basis of them being there before palestinians because they were never there!


Many, many Arabs who now live in Israel had immigrated illegally to the region only a couple of years prior to Israel's declaration of independence, and yet they were declared refugees. So, what do you do with them? How do they compare with Jew who's family had been living in Israel since the 1880's? Let's say we have an Arab who immigrated to the area illegally from Egypt, purely for a better wage in 1946, and the Jew who's family had immigrated legally to the region from Russia? And what if that Russian Jewish family has subsequently married into local Jewish families, who had been in the region for the last 3,500 years???

So, in 1948, which family had the superior claim?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I have debated the following...


Let's bring it back to the point of the thread. Is there even an Arab people called the "Palestinians"? I say not, it's an invention, a public relations tool. It's worked very well, because most modern people do not pay attention to or give much credence to history.

Bring your debating points to your own thread. I'm pulling the "off topic" card here, because I'm tired of going around in circles. The right of the Jews to "close settlement" in the Palestine Mandate, especially in Western Palestine, in irrevocable. Jews were the original "palestinians". The term lost it's meaning when "Palestine" became Israel. The rest of the Palestine Mandate, namely Judea and Samaria are as yet in trust, an unallocated portion of the Palestine Mandate. Jews have every right to settle there and in Haifa, Metullah, Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Yup we empower the nutcases, and then sell you guys (Israeli's, maybe not you specifically, but your brethren) guns to defend yourselves.  My question you may be able to answer is when is the Israeli government gonna tell the U.S.A to f*%k off?


I think the Israel leaders (not all, of course) are in on the whole game. I think the Arab leaders are too. I've come to think that probably all the world leaders are playing us all. Try to get us to fight so we'll bump each other off, and they can make money while we do their bidding. 

It's the only explanation that makes sense to me, because otherwise, what we have left are a bunch of retarded world leaders that keep making the same "mistakes".

Mistakes? Yeah. They're dumb as foxes.

There are good leaders too, but they're either not positioned correctly to make a difference, or they get bumped off.

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## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## ElyaKatz

> So the forum can completely dismiss your allegations the old testament is inaccurate since you are obviously incapable of making such an assertion?


I said the Christian Old Testament is not a reliable document, thus not authoritative. It is not faithful to the Hebrew in all cases. If you want to know what the Hebrew/Aramaic Scriptures say, then you must go back to the original language. The next best thing is a side-by-side Hebrew English Tanach, put out by a Jewish publisher.

If you want to make a comparison, then you can buy "Let's Get Biblical" by Rabbi Tovia Singer. I personally do not have the time to walk you through every comparison where there is a divergence from the original text in the Old Testament. The book will do so for you. I am not your personal research assistance.

You can find the book on Outreach Judaism, or you can do your own comparison by purchasing a Tanach by Artscroll Publishers, and compare it with your Christian Old Testament.

I can come back and link. I don't have time, but for now, anyone interested can google the book and website names and you will find what you need. My statements in this regard have been much more nuanced than your interpretation of my statements.

Best....

Ellie

----------


## revolutionisnow

In the OT, God gave the land to a bloodline - more specific than race, and the people who now claim that it is theirs based on this text are people of a religion. We don't need scholars to figure out that there is something wrong here, just honesty and common sense.

----------


## lester1/2jr

> Many, many Arabs who now live in Israel had immigrated illegally to the region only a couple of years prior to Israel's declaration of independence, and yet they were declared refugees. So, what do you do with them? How do they compare with Jew who's family had been living in Israel since the 1880's? Let's say we have an Arab who immigrated to the area illegally from Egypt, purely for a better wage in 1946, and the Jew who's family had immigrated legally to the region from Russia? And what if that Russian Jewish family has subsequently married into local Jewish families, who had been in the region for the last 3,500 years???
> 
> So, in 1948, which family had the superior claim?


if you want to get techincal about it, I would say the peoplpe who were from closest to the land had more of a "right" to it as it's more like moving over a bit rather than coming from a completely different part of the world.


but more to the point,  you must admit the russian jews have NO genetic connection to the land.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> if you want to get techincal about it, I would say the peoplpe who were from closest to the land had more of a "right" to it as it's more like moving over a bit rather than coming from a completely different part of the world.
> 
> 
> but more to the point,  you must admit the russian jews have NO genetic connection to the land.


Your facts are incorrect on both counts. I'll respond to your second statement first. There were actually very few conversions even among the Ashkenazim over the centuries, and almost none among the Sephardim. Genetic studies back me on this. 

And as for your first statement, the Jewish people have always had a presence in Eretz Israel. There would have been more, except for the fact that there have been what is now recognized as large scale illegal population transfers of Jews out of the region, and large scale efforts at stopping Jews from returning to their lands and homes over those same time periods. 

Might doesn't make right. There is no statute of limitations on the recovery of a stolen homeland as long as two conditions are present: 1) The people who's national homeland was stolen exist and 2) Those people have not relinquished their claim. Both conditions have been met by the Jewish people. If you understood anything about Jewish history and Jewish culture, you would know this is an undeniable fact that has been universally accepted throughout history. In recent times there has been a concerted effort on the part of the Arab world and their sympathizers to cast doubts on our claims, but there are still Islamic authorities that admit to the truth of our claims.

 I have a few questions for you.

Why is the land that Jews lived on called "Yehudah" in Hebrew, and the name for a Jew in Hebrew also "Yehuda" ("Yehudit" for a woman). And why is the nation "United Arab Emirates" and "Saudi Arabia" so remarkably similar to the name of the people called the "Arabs"???

Those are rhetorical questions. You don't need to answer them. The answer is obvious. Because large numbers Arabs emigrated to Eretz Israel for jobs at the same time as large numbers of Jews returned to their homeland, does not mean they are entitled to a sovereign nation in the Jewish homeland.

I've gone over these issues several times in my posts on the topic. I've provided links and credible sources which prove my case.

----------


## rpfan2008

> Because large numbers Arabs emigrated to Eretz Israel for jobs at the same time as large numbers of Jews returned to their *homeland*, does not mean they are entitled to a sovereign nation in the Jewish *homeland*.


homeland?

just because some influential World leaders of that time chose to call it so?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> homeland?
> 
> just because some influential World leaders of that time chose to call it so?


_Historical homeland_ then. In Hebrew, which was and is the language most Zionists used, even in Europe in the 1800's, I believe they would have used the term "HaAretz" (The Land) or "Eretz Yisroel" (Land of Israel) or Yerushalyim (Jerusalem, which has always symbolically represented all of HaAretz. These terms have been used by Jews for thousands of years to describe the Land of Israel.

Do we need to excise the English language of every possible phrase that might have been used at some point by "influential World leaders" as you put it, because they used it?? Or, you could learn Hebrew.

You are really reaching....

----------


## revolutionisnow

> _Historical homeland_ then. In Hebrew, which was and is the language most Zionists used, even in Europe in the 1800's, I believe they would have used the term "HaAretz" (The Land) or "Eretz Yisroel" (Land of Israel) or Yerushalyim (Jerusalem, which has always symbolically represented all of HaAretz. These terms have been used by Jews for thousands of years to describe the Land of Israel.
> 
> Do we need to excise the English language of every possible phrase that might have been used at some point by "influential World leaders" as you put it, because they used it?? Or, you could learn Hebrew. 
> 
> You are really reaching....


Wrong again. Most of them spoke Yiddish(if not just other European languages), and NO, it is not based off Hebrew either. If I convert to Judaism tomorrow or learn Hebrew, how does that entitle me to middle eastern land? 

A few samples
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Kibitzer
kib·itz
  (kĭb'ĭts)   
intr.v.   kib·itzed, kib·itz·ing, kib·itz·es Informal

   1.      To look on and offer unwanted, usually meddlesome advice to others.
   2.      To chat; converse.
[Yiddish kibitsen, from German kiebitzen, from Kiebitz, pewit, kibitzer, *from Middle High German* gībitz, pewit, of imitative origin.]
kib'itz·er n.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lox
lox 1
  (lŏks)   
n.   pl. lox or lox·es
Smoked salmon.

[Yiddish laks, from Middle High German lahs, salmon, f*rom Old High German; see laks- in Indo-European roots*.]

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## ElyaKatz

> Wrong again. Most of them spoke Yiddish(if not just other European languages), and NO, it is not based off Hebrew either. If I convert to Judaism tomorrow or learn Hebrew, how does that entitle me to middle eastern land?


*On Hebrew:*

I was not making an argument re Hebrew entitling someone to own land in Eretz Yisroel.

Even as far back as the early chalutzim (pioneers), Hebrew was often the language of choice as a written, and then later a spoken language in Israel, and as the language of correspondence between family members in Israel and the Diaspora. This was not universal, of course, but it demonstrates the fact that Hebrew was not only a language that was used, but it was being revived formodern, everyday usage in the early 1800's. 

Of course, throughout the exile, Hebrew (along with some Aramaic) was the language of the liturgy, and the language used in community public records all along throughout the exile. In any case, the majority of Jewish men knew Hebrew enough to understand the synagogue services, and pray from the Siddur, and to read from the Torah. Some notable women knew Hebrew as well, often being rebbetzins (Rabbi's wives), and would help their husbands with their various writings prior to publication. All this knowledge of Biblical and Mishnaic Hebrew alone would make them able to understand 70% of modern day Hebrew. 

"The measures for 'reforming' (encouraging them to assimilate -- E.K.) the Jews included the opening of public schools to Jewish children and permission for Jews to establish their own schools, the stipulation that within a limited time all documents in one of the languages of the country (and not Yiddish or Hebrew)..." -- _A History of the Jewish People, pg 758 ed. H. H. Ben Sasson._

"In contrast, the press in Eastern Europe was mostly Hebrew...the most important papers in Hebrew were Hamaggind, founded in 1856 in Lyck, Prussia, Hameliz of Odessa and Hacarmiel of Vilna, both established in 1860, and Hasefirah, founded in 1862 in Warsaw." -- _A History of the Jewish People, pg 849 ed. H. H. Ben Sasson._

"In Eishyshok (Eisyskes, Lithuania) as in Jewish communities for thousands of years, the pinkas was the document of record for everything the community considered to be important about itself. Because it went iinto such detail, the pinkas made it possible for the shtetl to hand down a complete diary of its past. All dates referred to the Jewish lunarsolar calendar, and most entires were in Hebrew, though there were occasional entries in Yiddish, and a smattering of words from other languages as well. The person chosen to write the entries was a member of the kahal, and individual known fo rhis penmanship, his artistic talent, his command of Hebrew and his scholarship." -- _There Once Was a World, pg 44, Yaffa Eliach_

The expressions "Eretz Yisroel", "HaAretz" and "Yerushalayim" are all over the place in the Siddur and the Torah. 

*On conversions and the Jewish right to return to Eretz Israel:*

A sincere convert to Judaism is entitled to live in Eretz Yisroel. There have been some cases discovered of insincere conversions recently, so they are being scrutinized very carefully these days. As far as being entitled to the Land, according to the Torah, every man who is a part of the nation of Israel (Jewish in modern terms, but this necessarily includes other tribes) above the age of 20 is entitled to a plot of land. According to modern Israeli law, if someone has the the money, then they can buy land that is for sale. Most of the land is publicly owned, and is leased in 49 or 99 year terms. The balance of the term of lease can be willed to one child.

Simply knowing Hebrew, or even simply living according to Torah law does not entitle anyone to anything in Eretz Israel. One must be halachically Jewish. According to Torah Law, a Jew is one who is born of a Jewish mother, or undergoes a valid halachic conversion under the supervision of a valid halachic Jewish court (bais din).

Becoming a member of the Jewish people is similar to becoming the member of any nation. One learn the laws of the nation (the Torah) and takes an oath to abide by those laws (The Torah). 

Yiddish has a Latin based grammar, with Hebrew, German and Slavic making up much of the vocabulary.

As for the Jewish people referring to Eretz Yisroel as their homeland (a term they didn't use) Jews have been trying to return, praying to return and dreaming of returning ever since the first exile, and then especially after the second. It is a theme that runs through all Jewish writings.

----------


## lester1/2jr

not all but many russian jews converted around the time of charlemagne. they aren't semites.


from wiki 




> Under the influence of these Jewish communities, Bulan, the Khagan Bek of the Khazars, and the ruling classes of Khazaria (located in what is now Ukraine, Southern Russia and Kazakhstan), *adopted* Judaism at some point in the mid-to-late 8th or early 9th centuries

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## YumYum

> not all but many russian jews converted around the time of charlemagne. they aren't semites.
> 
> 
> from wiki


I read "The Thirteenth Tribe" and was shocked to find out that most Jews are not descendants of Abraham. We descended from the Khazars, a nomadic people who sold trinkets and baubles, much like gypsies. I have Jewish family that remind me of gypsies. They are quite fluent in Yiddish and are very unselfish, but I would never trust them in a business deal. Must be the Khazar in their blood. Relatives that I have who are Sephardic are different than my Yid relatives. You couldn't find a more honest caring group of people. Some of them like Ron Paul, even though they are radical leftists.

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## ElyaKatz

> I read "The Thirteenth Tribe" and was shocked to find out that most Jews are not descendants of Abraham. We descended from the Khazars, a nomadic people who sold trinkets and baubles, much like gypsies. I have Jewish family that remind me of gypsies.


Funny how you won't trust a "myth" that was witnessed by 600,000 men, plus their women and children, at Mount Sinai, but you'll trust the largely debunked book by Koestler, who was ... a Zionist. Now you trust Zionists?? I thought they were all ganavim in your eyes??

*Audio: If the Torah is True, Prove it!* I'm going to listen to it today. Let me know what you think of it YumYum. If you dare open your mind a bit. Just a little.

_"Western interest in the Khazars was stimulated largely by the 1976 book The Thirteenth Tribe by Arthur Koestler, a writer better known for his lifelong battles against totalitarianism in all its forms. Koestler's book was largely based on the earlier book The History of the Jewish Khazars, by the historian D.M. Dunlop.

"Dunlop rejected the idea that large numbers of Ashkenazi Jews could trace their origins to the Khazars, but not so Koestler. By grossly and sensationally exaggerating the role and numbers of Khazar descendents among European Jewry, Koestler - who was a strong Zionist - inadvertently provided today's racialist anti-Semites with all the ammunition they could want, and many of them frequently cite his book as the basis for their racialist denunciations of Israel.... 

"Likewise, the Swedish archaeologist Bozena Werbart, an expert on the Khazars, wrote: 'In the Khazar kingdom, Koestler wanted to see the origin of the eastern European Jewry. Nevertheless, all the historical and linguistic facts contradicted his theories."_ 

In other words, Koestler was reaching....




> They are quite fluent in Yiddish and are very unselfish, but I would never trust them in a business deal. Must be the Khazar in their blood. Relatives that I have who are Sephardic are different than my Yid relatives.


So, you are saying that because  Koestler claimed that Ashkenazim "descended from the Khazars, a nomadic people who sold trinkets and baubles, much like gypsies..." you "would never trust them in a business deal" because of their "Khazar blood", in contrast to your Sephardic relatives, who are an "honest, caring group of people."

Am I understanding you correctly??

_"Small groups of Khazar mercenaries probably found refuge in other places. Most likely the largest integration of Khazar Jews among other Jews took place in Iran and Iraq, the large communities closest to the Khazar kingdom and with whom close ties had been maintained."_

Furthermore, 
_
"The greatest irony is that even if the entire Khazar theory of Ashkenazi Jews were correct - and virtually none of it is correct - it would be entirely irrelevant. Judaism has never defined Jews on racial grounds. Anyone from any race is welcome as a convert to Judaism as long as he or she is sincere. 

The biblical Israelites themselves were already a racial hodgepodge. They absorbed the 'mixed multitude' that left Egypt together with them at the time of the Exodus. There are biblical references to Jews of different racial features, including the black-skinned Shulamit mentioned in the Song of Songs. 

Jews always defined themselves in religious, ethnic-national and at times linguistic terms, but never along racial lines. If all Ashkenazi Jews were indeed converted Khazars, as the racial anti-Zionists claim, they would be no less legitimately Jews - and, as such, would have the same legitimate claims to the Jewish homeland as any other group of Jews. (Given the traditional Jewish deference to righteous converts, maybe more so.)"_ 

*"Pseudo-History and Poppycock...*

_"Jews already lived in Europe a thousand years before the Khazar kingdom was formed. There are no genetic markers or indicators at all showing that Ashkenazi Jews are descended from Turkic tribes. In fact, there exists considerable genetic evidence showing that European Jews are closer to Levantine and Syrian Arabs than to Central Asians.

After the Mongol invasion most Khazars probably assimilated into the Jewish communities of Iran and Iraq, which of course eventually emerged as important Sephardic centers, formed mainly of Jews with Semitic racial characteristics, descended from migrants and exiled Jews from the Land of Israel. In any case, there are more 'Semitic' Sephardic Jews in Israel today than there are European Ashkenazi Jews. And if the Khazars looked Turkic, how on earth could they give Ashkenazi Jews a European complexion?"_ 

Sigh. So many inconsistencies when one tries to break people down along racial lines, according them their rights on that basis. And then the irony that strikes me as so hysterically funny, the same people who attempt to disinherit Jews via these ridiculous racial arguments turn around and call Jews "racists" for fighting their enemies, for the time being, mostly Arab and Iranian Muslims, but not exclusively. The Arabs are largely a linquistic group, which can be further broken into groupings according to religion and national loyalties. It's all so complicated, isn't it??

News flash: Israelis don't fight anyone because they speak Arabic or practice Islam. Israelis fight people who have openly declared warfare on the modern state of Israel. Period. And Israel disseminates gas masks to Arab citizens as well as Jewish citizens when tyrants such as Saddam Hussein threaten to destroy the nation via WMD's. I was there, saw it with my own eyes. I also saw how considerate Israeli medical personnel are of Arabs in Israeli hospitals. Oh, and hole in the "Israeli apartheid theory": Those Druze soldiers. Israeli Arabs can join the IDF too, They're simply not required to do so. How oppressive can a government get??

So, who's the racist/bigot??? The Israelis who disseminate gas masks to their entire population, regardless of their racial background or religious practices, or those who would disinherit Jews because in their unscholarly and poorly read estimation, they aren't true "Israelites"?
_
"The racialism once again in vogue holds that Jews would only have legitimate claims to the right of self-determination in their homeland if they were appropriately Semitic from a racial point of view. Palestine is part of the Semitic racial lebensraum and those who do not possess the correct pure racial markings have no business being there. Racial purity is suddenly the new basis for national rights."

"To make things even sillier, Arabs themselves are, of course, a mix of racial strains, with a particularly large Caucasian component thanks to Arab intermixing with Spanish and Italian Europeans, Caucasian Berbers, Vandals, Goths, and even some Vikings."_

Some piquante comments below the article:

_"Who are the Palestinians?
Date 02:05, 05-10, 07

The story about the Khazar Myth and the New Anti-Semitism, where the origin of today's Israeli Jews is questioned, begs the question about who the Palestinians really are. I know that they claim to be Arabs, but could it be that they are the descendents of the Hamitic Canaanites of old. Their behavior in sending their children as martyrs to be blown up, is reminiscent of the abominable Canaanite practise of sacrificing children by passing them through fire.

Ellen Reid."_

And it's even on-point to the thread. Nice.

Now for the last nail in the coffin for the Khazar Myth:

_"Khazars
Date 09:06, 06-18, 08

This article gives the Khazar theory way to much credence, it is unlikely there ever were jewish Khazars at all-all the ''Spanish'' documents themselves were probably themselves forgeries by ambitious Jewish early printers in Amsterdam looking to sell a book or two.
The actual historical fact is that the original source was ''re-discovered'' by an amsterdam print-house in the 16th century.
Jewish proponents of the theory oft mention the ''Shechter'' letter-yet this gives no actual evidence in itself.
Marc Gorelick"_ 

All quotes taken from *The Khazar Myth and the New Anti-Semitism* by Steven Plaut. *All bold emphases Ellie Katz*

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## rpfan2008

Russian archaeologists find long-lost Jewish capital 

Like the taste?

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## ElyaKatz

> Russian archaeologists find long-lost Jewish capital 
> 
> Like the taste?


Try reading my previous post. The entire thing. Then you'll see how insecure it makes me. I find the whole Kuzari thing interesting. I own a copy of "The Kuzari" and find it quite fascinating.

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## lester1/2jr

> "The greatest irony is that even if the entire Khazar theory of Ashkenazi Jews were correct - and virtually none of it is correct - it would be entirely irrelevant. Judaism has never defined Jews on racial grounds. Anyone from any race is welcome as a convert to Judaism as long as he or she is sincere


so what';s the point of trying to prove a historical connection to the land?   according to you it's "entirely irrelevent" where a jew comes from only that they ARE jewish

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## ElyaKatz

> so what';s the point of trying to prove a historical connection to the land?   according to you it's "entirely irrelevent" where a jew comes from only that they ARE jewish


It is one of many factors, not entirely irrelevant. I don't believe the majority of Ashkenazi Jews were of Khazari descent. You need to take into consideration Sephardi Jews as well. They are a majority in Israel.

The Jews of Judea didn't disappear. At most, there was some conversions in, which brought new bloodlines into the Jewish people. Genetic studies prove me out.

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## rpfan2008

> You need to *take into consideration Sephardi Jews* as well. They are a *majority in Israel*.


Oh!

didn't know too many Israelis died last night. How that happened? Palestinian nukes???? 




> Population of Shepardi Jews in Israel: *725* 000
> source
> 
> Population of Israel
>  -  	2009 estimate 	*7,411*,000 (96th)
>  -  	1995 census 	5,548,523


Now I better understand why *truth is anti-semitic*.

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## rpfan2008

> The story about the Khazar Myth and the New Anti-Semitism, where the origin of today's Israeli Jews is questioned, *begs the question about who the Palestinians really are.* I know that they claim to be Arabs, but could it be that *they are the descendents of the Hamitic Canaanites* of old. Their behavior in sending their children as martyrs to be blown up, is reminiscent of the abominable *Canaanite practise of sacrificing children by passing them through fire*.


Can you point me to other historians/think-tanks that are promoting this theory?

Because today I saw a disturbing piece of video of newscast from 9/11...remember that unknown guy in the crowd who said _"the buildings failed due to structural failure...heat melted the steel"_ or something like that? With immediate reports from an anonymous caller (on TV ) _"Palestinians with a truck load of explosives heading towards George Washington bridge.."_ ...was that a setup?? To blame the 911 attacks on Palestinians? Those reports were quickly removed after the *luckiest* thing that happened that day....arrest of the 5 Dancing Israelis who *had set-up their cameras towards the twin-towers before the first impact*....and they later admitted on Israeli TV that their job was to document the event.




> The points I made are very well documented in this movie


Hmm..you gave us a good clue.
Thanks.

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## revolutionisnow

Jews are not Israelites. Khazar theory or no Khazar theory. (the Khazar theory works out linguistically also btw http://www.nytimes.com/1996/10/29/sc...n-of-jews.html) Its a bloodline and such a mixed group of people claiming one bloodline is absolutely ridiculous.   

True Israel converted to Christianity, just as Hosea prophesied in Hosea 1:10,11

    They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Yahshua saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
    John 8:39 

In John 8:33, the "Jews" claimed to Yahshua to be of Abraham only, and not of Abraham's son Isaac, and not of Abraham's grandson, Jacob/Israel (Jacob's name was changed to Israel by Yahweh). The "Jews" claim descent only from Abraham. And they gave us a another very valuable clue in John Chapter 8, that they had never been in bondage to any man:

    They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
    John 8:33 

Yet Israel, the descendents of Jacob/Israel and his 12 sons, were in bondage 400 years in Egypt:

    And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
    Genesis 15:13 

*So the Question Is...

What group of people were the offspring of Abraham, did not serve in Egyptian bondage, and yet had worked their way into the priestly system of Israel at the time of Yahshua?*

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Oh! .... didn't know too many Israelis died last night. How that happened? Palestinian nukes????  ... Now I better understand why *truth is anti-semitic*.


I have no idea what you are getting at here RPfan, but in an attempt to respond to it --

Wikipedia on *Demographics of Israel*
_
"According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, as of 2009, of Israel's 7 million people, 82.8% were Jews of any background[3] Among them, 68% were Sabras (Israeli-born), mostly second- or third-generation Israelis, and the rest are olim (Jewish immigrants to Israel) — 22% from Europe and the Americas, and 10% from Asia and Africa, including the Arab countries. [4]

Nearly half of all Israeli Jews are descended from Jews who immigrated from Europe, while around the same number are descended from Jews who immigrated from Arab countries, Iran, Turkey and Central Asia. Over two hundred thousand are, or are descended from, Ethiopian and Indian Jews.[5]"_

Okay? So around 1/2 are Sephardi or "Oriental" Jews. In other words, they originate from either North Africa or the Middle East, same as the Arab population.

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## ElyaKatz

> Jews are not Israelites....What group of people were the offspring of Abraham, did not serve in Egyptian bondage, and yet had worked their way into the priestly system of Israel at the time of Yahshua?


The name "Yahshua" is, in Hebrew or Aramaic, a linguistic impossibility. I am familiar with Ephramite and sacred-name (profane name) nonsense. It will end up in the dustbin of fake history, but not until it drags down those gullible enough to fall for it.

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## revolutionisnow

Correct answer was Esau/Edomites.

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## ElyaKatz

> Correct answer was Esau/Edomites.


Says the man who has little or no knowledge of Hebrew or Aramaic, thus you must depend on translators in order to read the Hebrew/Aramaic Scriptures. Who spoon feeds you this garbage?

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## ElyaKatz

> Can you point me to other historians/think-tanks that are promoting this theory?


Read the article by Steven Plaut, which I cited, in full and the comments below the article. It might be enlightening.

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## revolutionisnow

> Says the man who has little or no knowledge of Hebrew or Aramaic, thus you must depend on translators in order to read the Hebrew/Aramaic Scriptures. Who spoon feeds you this garbage?


LOL, how will learning Hebrew help me to read the New Testament, which was originally written in GREEK? 

"Edom is modern Jewry." The Jewish Encyclopedia, 1925 edition, Vol.5, p.41

Here is a page from an authoritative encyclopedia on religion:



And here is some further reading about the Khazars. I do find it odd that the Jewish encyclopedia would devote so much time to an "antisemitic conspiracy theory" though. 
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...h=Chazars#1378

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## ElyaKatz

> ..arrest of the 5 Dancing Israelis who *had set-up their cameras towards the twin-towers before the first impact*....and they later admitted on Israeli TV that their job was to document the event.


Give us the link.

I also heard stories of eyewitnesses observing Somalians in downtown Minneapolis celebrating on the evening of 9/11. 

So, what do your rumors prove??

----------


## ElyaKatz

> LOL, how will learning Hebrew help me to read the New Testament, which was originally written in GREEK?


Obviously not. Christianity claims to originate out of the Tanach, our of Biblical Judaism, which is revealed to the Christian world (somewhat) via the Hebrew Bible. Thus, in order to understand your religion's alleged origins, then you must understand what the Hebrew Bible actually says. Thus, it would be advisable to learn Hebrew and Aramaic (for parts are written in Aramaic.) You can't even pronounce your messiah's name correctly. In Hebrew, he would have been called Yehoshua. In Aramaic, Yeshua. You make an incorrect point in calling him "Yahshua"...precisely because that could not have possibly been his name.

I never said the Khazar's didn't exist, or that they did not possibly accept Judaism. In Plaut's article, which I tend to agree to, he wrote that even if the Khazar theory was 100% true, it is irrelevant to the question of whether the Jewish people have a right to reclaim their national homeland.

*Quote from post #302:*

_"The greatest irony is that even if the entire Khazar theory of Ashkenazi Jews were correct - and virtually none of it is correct - it would be entirely irrelevant. Judaism has never defined Jews on racial grounds. Anyone from any race is welcome as a convert to Judaism as long as he or she is sincere.

The biblical Israelites themselves were already a racial hodgepodge. They absorbed the 'mixed multitude' that left Egypt together with them at the time of the Exodus. There are biblical references to Jews of different racial features, including the black-skinned Shulamit mentioned in the Song of Songs.

Jews always defined themselves in religious, ethnic-national and at times linguistic terms, but never along racial lines. If all Ashkenazi Jews were indeed converted Khazars, as the racial anti-Zionists claim, they would be no less legitimately Jews - and, as such, would have the same legitimate claims to the Jewish homeland as any other group of Jews. (Given the traditional Jewish deference to righteous converts, maybe more so.)"_

Facts are not the problem. Presumption, and then misuse and abuse of facts are the problem. That is where Plaut observes that the antisemitism becomes obvious. *Feldheim's sells the book, "The Kuzari"*. I own a copy, bought it from them. I'm Jewish. Obviously, neither Feldheim's nor I am antisemitic.

Again, if you read Plaut's article, along with the commentaries below (there is a print option for the comments) it is educational.

----------


## Bman

> he wrote that even if the Khazar theory was 100% true, it is irrelevant to the question of whether the Jewish people have a right to reclaim their national homeland.


In a historical context you have to admit this sentence to be a bit absurd.  Seriously, I didn't know that nomads had national homelands.
Not to mention in the 3000 year history of Judaism only roughly 1000 years of that time can it be claimed that the land was property of the Jewish people.  That means we have other groups with significant time on that land that can make the same claim.  I'd say the biggest problem, historically is that outside influences have tried to control the design of Israel.  The land has been treated as a colony for so much time that it's time for the people that live there to figure out the future.  The international world really needs to back off.

----------


## rpfan2008

> Give us the link.
> 
> I also heard stories of eyewitnesses observing Somalians in downtown Minneapolis celebrating on the evening of 9/11. 
> 
> So, what do your rumors prove??


What if I give you a link?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> What if I give you a link?


This is the whole quote RPfan:




> ..arrest of the 5 Dancing Israelis who *had set-up their cameras towards the twin-towers before the first impact*....and they later admitted on Israeli TV that their job was to document the event.


Then I responded to your claim re 5 Dancing Israelis thus:




> Give us the link.
> 
> I also heard stories of eyewitnesses observing Somalians in downtown Minneapolis celebrating on the evening of 9/11. 
> 
> So, what do your rumors prove??


Prove your rumors with a link from a credible source. Anybody can say anything. Saying it or repeating it from someone else who said it doesn't make it the truth. Give us the link to the newspaper article on the arrest of these Israelis, or to the Israeli TV show where they admitted that their job was to document 9/11, or the news report about said the Israeli TV show.

Prove your claim.

----------


## rpfan2008

^ FU

I don't like these 'project- Alex Jones' kind of tricks.

Debate is not whether the 5 Israelis had set up their cameras, nor whether they had been on Israeli TV and admitted that or not.....debate is why they were released , where are those tapes of first impact, how they knew that planes were going to hit the twin towers,  where are those explosive laden vans etc etc. Police caught Israelis but attacked Afghanistan and Iraq...

----------


## revolutionisnow

> This is the whole quote RPfan:
> 
> 
> 
> Then I responded to your claim re 5 Dancing Israelis thus:
> 
> 
> 
> Prove your rumors with a link from a credible source. Anybody can say anything. Saying it or repeating it from someone else who said it doesn't make it the truth. Give us the link to the newspaper article on the arrest of these Israelis, or to the Israeli TV show where they admitted that their job was to document 9/11, or the news report about said the Israeli TV show.
> ...


http://www.takeourworldback.com/itwasntmuslims.htm

Has many many links, but all this is also covered in the documentary http://www.911missinglinks.com

YouTube - Israelis Admit on Live TV they had Prior Knowledge To 9/11 ( 911 & The Dancing Jews )

----------


## rpfan2008

> The New York Times reported Thursday that a group of five men had set up video cameras aimed at the Twin Towers prior to the attack on Tuesday, and were seen congratulating one another afterwards.


Fox News

----------


## ElyaKatz

BS"D




> ^ FU
> 
> I don't like these 'project- Alex Jones' kind of tricks.
> 
> Debate is not whether the 5 Israelis had set up their cameras, nor whether they had been on Israeli TV and admitted that or not.....debate is why they were released , where are those tapes of first impact, how they knew that planes were going to hit the twin towers,  where are those explosive laden vans etc etc. Police caught Israelis but attacked Afghanistan and Iraq...


So, you're saying you don't like Alex Jones type projects? Good for you. He's not as alternative as people think he is. I've posted on that before too. Didn't you used to have a link to Christopher Bollyn??

I am not one who thinks the Israeli government, or AIPAC is really as pro-Israel as anti-Zionists seem to think they are. As the sharp differences YumYum and I have with one another, Jews are not nearly as "united" as our detractors seem to think we are. We credit the destruction of The Second Temple to "baseless hatred" against one another, and have spent the last 2000 years working on accomplishing it's opposite, unconditional love for one another (not necessarily approval of one another's behavior). If someday, we get our act together, then maybe the Jewish nation would actually be Jewish in character, and maybe it wouldn't be so vulnerable to outside interference by foreign powers. If only....

Yair Lapid is on the hard left of Israel's political spectrum. That does not correspond with the American hard left. To consider Lapid's possible motivation in airing the alleged interview of these alleged Mossad agents, it is instructive to read books such as *The Late Great State of Israel* by Aaron Klein. One chapter is entitled "Israel's War Against the Jews" and another is entitled "How the US Funds Palestinian Terrorism".

Dancing on a rooftop in open view of all the world, and then later making naked admissions such as the one on Lapid's show tell me that either the sound bytes have been chosen carefully, or the whole thing is a set-up. Deep-cover spies are not idiots, and these 5, if the reports of them are true, acted like idiots, not highly trained professionals such as the sort that made sure most of the perps of the Munich massacre met their just end.

Obviously, I don't agree with Penn & Teller's religious views, but they did make a good point on the whole "9/11 truther" controversy here:

YouTube - Penn & Teller - 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
For a change, I agree with Noam Chomsky as well. He makes a good point, which can be applied to Netanyahu's comments on how 9/11 would benefit Israel's war on terror:

YouTube - Chomsky dispels 9/11 conspiracies with sheer logic

----------


## ElyaKatz

BS"D

RIN, 

Thanks for the links. The problem is, a good portion of those links are to less than credible sources, such as David Irving, a Holocaust denier. Yes, Holocaust deniers lack credibility. Like, _seriously lack credibility._

YouTube - 9/11 Conspiracy Theories: P.48 - The 5 Dancing Israelis
Here's the transcript to the video, as well as the entire transcript of what "Maria" said. Maria was the witness to the alleged dancing Israelis:

*Dancing Israelis*

I've already watched the Youtube video of Yair Lapid interviewing some Israelis. Several times. The problem is, I can't hear the Hebrew so I can't listen to what is being said, only the translation. Even if the English translation is correct, the clip is very short. I used to watch Yair Lapid regularly. I believe his show is or was (I'm not sure if he has a show anymore) 1/2 an hour or 1 hour long. I'm sure the interview was much longer than that. It's easy to take a sound byte out to make it seem like someone was saying something they didn't. The credibility factor would increase if the clip was long enough to hear the entire interview. The shortness of the clip causes me to suspect the not unusual strategy of "cherry picking". And even if the clip is not an example of anti-Israel cherry picking, one must understand Yair Lapid's personal bias, son of Shinui party leader and spokesman Tommy Lapid, now passed away. Yishai Fleisher discusses the thought processes of a man like Yair Lapid in his article *"Division between "Israeli" and "Jew" is artificial*.

Re Mossad allegedly knowing about the Al Qaeda plot of 9/11, a lot of stories abounded in those early days. I heard reports immediately following 9/11 stating that the Israeli government tried to warn the US of impending terrorist attacks on American soil, but that the US government either discounted or under-reacted to those warnings.

Though the links you provided make for scintillating reading, in my opinion, they are on the level of a good spy novel, not exactly a smoking gun proving Israeli complicity in 9/11.

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## lester1/2jr

uggh keep 9/11 conspiracy theories out if possible thanks

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## ElyaKatz

> uggh keep 9/11 conspiracy theories out if possible thanks


Yeah. I know. 

I didn't bring it up lester1/2jr. Can I just call you lester? How did you come up with that handle??

Since the subject came up (urp...) I'm just wending my way through the various 9/11 conspiracy theories that put the blame on the Mossad or on Zionists. It's tough, because you have to slog through pages and pages of garbage to get to anything with any credibility whatsoever.

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## lester1/2jr

it's beetlejuice from the howard stern show.  his real name is lester green jr, but they called him lester 1/2jr because he's a dwarf.  it was something he said once that I thought was funny.

I once asked some truthers what they thought really happened on 9/11, like not what was wrong with the official story but how it actually was pulled off.  did they get all the air traffic controllers in on it?  the pilots?  none of them had any idea.  thye just kept talking about israel and the holes in the official story.  I'll find the thread and post it sometime  but it's not very interesting.  I actually had to try and come up with the theory myself.  the forum section was "alternate theories" and no one had any alternate theories!

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## ElyaKatz

> it's beetlejuice from the howard stern show.  his real name is lester green jr, but they called him lester 1/2jr because he's a dwarf.  it was something he said once that I thought was funny.
> 
> I once asked some truthers what they thought really happened on 9/11, like not what was wrong with the official story but how it actually was pulled off.  did they get all the air traffic controllers in on it?  the pilots?  none of them had any idea.  thye just kept talking about israel and the holes in the official story.  I'll find the thread and post it sometime  but it's not very interesting.  I actually had to try and come up with the theory myself.  the forum section was "alternate theories" and no one had any alternate theories!


I can't believe you watch/listen to the Howard Stern show. I hope it was only once. He's pollution for the soul, that guy. That's the kind of Jews you like?? Ugh!! He's the kind of Jew that gives the rest of us honest Jews a bad name.

Well, you and I are on the same page re the 9/11 thing. Some common ground, eh?

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## ElyaKatz

> Fox News


Nothing in the report about Israelis.

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## lester1/2jr

and sarah silverman

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## revolutionisnow

> it's beetlejuice from the howard stern show.  his real name is lester green jr, but they called him lester 1/2jr because he's a dwarf.  it was something he said once that I thought was funny.
> 
> I once asked some truthers what they thought really happened on 9/11, like not what was wrong with the official story but how it actually was pulled off.  did they get all the air traffic controllers in on it?  the pilots?  none of them had any idea.  thye just kept talking about israel and the holes in the official story.  I'll find the thread and post it sometime  but it's not very interesting.  I actually had to try and come up with the theory myself.  the forum section was "alternate theories" and no one had any alternate theories!


All this is covered in the movie 911 Missing Links. There is software inside the controls that is able to override the pilots controls. There were also multiple war games going on that day. And ElyaKatz those "conspiracy debunkers" that you mentioned are not exactly unbiased, as they are Jewish.

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## ElyaKatz

> and sarah silverman


She is funny. I rarely laugh at dirty humor. It just doesn't hit my funny-bone, never has. So, when she's not dirty, she's funny.

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## ElyaKatz

> All this is covered in the movie 911 Missing Links. There is software inside the controls that is able to override the pilots controls. There were also multiple war games going on that day. And ElyaKatz those "conspiracy debunkers" that you mentioned are not exactly unbiased, as they are Jewish.


Your sources are no more unbiased than are mine. Nobody is unbiased in any realm of this debate...on any level. If you are going to discount sources by Jews, then in order to be consistent, you must also discount Yair Lapid. Cant have it both ways. There are plenty of anti-Israeli, post-Zionist Jews in the world. Do you only discount those you disagree with?? 

I'm not going to concede the point either, that all my sources are Jewish. Glenn Beck is not Jewish, at least as far as I know. Penn & Teller are both atheists. Teller only found out about his Jewish parentage when he was 50. Lapid and Chomsky are irrelegious anti-Zionist Jews. I have no idea about Penn Jillette. And the sources who write for *911 myths*? I have no idea. They seem more interested in learning the truth either way, rather than purely debunking. That is the link that has the entire dialogue with "Maria" the witness to the alleged "dancing Israeli" scene.

Look, I have said I do not support Labor Zionist leaders. Labor Zionist leaders don't like religious Jews, for the most part. In fact, I believe there is an undeclared war going on against religious Jews in Israel, by the Israeli government. There are exceptions, even within Labor Zionist leadership, of course.

Labor Zionist leaders such as David Ben-Gurion collaborated with the Nazis, and deliberately kept the "wrong" kind of Jews out of the Yishuv before Israel declared independence. Those would be poor, religious Jews from Eastern Europe. Labor Zionism gained the controls of the machinery of state prior to Israel's Declaration of Independence. Every institution in Israeli society is controlled, to this day, by Labor Zionists. The Likud was co-opted and then destroyed by Labor Zionist mole Ariel Sharon. So, the Mossad is probably also run by Labor Zionists. I wouldn't be surprised if they do immoral things. I know the Shabak (Israeli FBI... sort of) spies on Israeli citizens. Let's not kid ourselves about the CIA either. Or about American interference in Israeli internal politics, to the detriment and resulting in the deaths of many Israelis, Jews and Arabs.

I don't confuse Labor Zionists leaders with Religious Zionists, with good Jews from the Hareidi community, or even with the average man on the street liberal Israeli. I don't confuse the Arab leadership with the average Arab on the street either. Most Israelis are moral, good people that have the right to defend themselves against their enemies. Most Arabs just want to raise their families, but get pressured by their leaders into "nationalistic acts" or they lose their lives. 

The vast majority of Israelis are very proud of Israel's friendship with America and wouldn't dream of wishing any harm on Americans, and would be horrified if they found the Israeli government (Labor Zionist leaders) were doing anything against American interests. Those little Jews, the vast majority of Israel, are the people I say have the right to their historic national homeland, and have a right to defend themselves against their avowed enemies.

I have no sympathy for scum-bag American government elites...

*PLO murders US diplomats; US State Department protects...the PLO*!

or scumbag Israeli government elites, many of whom are probably not even Jews... 

*Why do Israeli leaders betray the Jews?*

...or any other corrupt government elitists who think they can lie and manipulate their people. Most governments in this world have forgotten the societal contract that gives them the right to govern, or they never had any clue what that societal contract ever was.

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## revolutionisnow

> Your sources are no more unbiased than are mine. Nobody is unbiased in any realm of this debate...on any level. If you are going to discount sources by Jews, then in order to be consistent, you must also discount Yair Lapid. Cant have it both ways. There are plenty of anti-Israeli, post-Zionist Jews in the world. Do you only discount those you disagree with?? 
> 
> I'm not going to concede the point either, that all my sources are Jewish. Glenn Beck is not Jewish, at least as far as I know. Penn & Teller are both atheists. Teller only found out about his Jewish parentage when he was 50. Lapid and Chomsky are irrelegious anti-Zionist Jews. I have no idea about Penn Jillette. And the sources who write for *911 myths*? I have no idea. They seem more interested in learning the truth either way, rather than purely debunking. That is the link that has the entire dialogue with "Maria" the witness to the alleged "dancing Israeli" scene.


Penn has said before in an interview that he is ethnically Jewish. Can you name any Israelis/Jews that will say that 9/11 was a Zionist false flag? What about some of the lesser controversial issues, such as the existence of a Kosher tax, their involvement in banking and the stock market, communism, the existence of a jewish crime network, etc? Its all part of the culture of Jews being taught not to speak out against other Jews, no matter what they do. Here are some articles about children being molested, but the victims are scared to come forward as they will become ostracized, and the communities trying to convince the victims not to come forward. 

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1093270.html
http://atheism.about.com/b/2009/02/2...-community.htm

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## ElyaKatz

> Penn has said before in an interview that he is ethnically Jewish.


And so goes the claim of Shimon Perez, many members of "Peace Now" and Yair Lapid. What of it?? You can't take the side of one person because he's Jewish, then ignore someone else _because he's Jewish._ 




> What about some of the lesser controversial issues, such as the existence of a Kosher tax,


If you don't want to pay for the cost of kosher certification, then buy stuff that isn't certified kosher. It's not that difficult. There is a huge range of non-kosher items, much larger than what is available for the kosher consumer. I keep kosher, so I know. I've watched the videos on this, and the narrators are nebishes. Whether or not a merchant decides to have his facilities kosher certified is a market based decision.

If we take this "kosher tax conspiracy" line of thinking to it's logical conclusion, then in order for Jews not to _impose_ their "kosher tax" on non-Jews, we must all move back to where?? Well, we could only come close to getting most Jews to move back to our ancient homeland, Israel in order to observe kosher laws unharassed. But apparently that is wrong as well. Where should we live and what shall we eat RIN? On the moon, and nibble on green cheese? How does one certify the moon as kosher? And will you then insist on sending a rocket up there to spoil our peaceful life far away from the critical eye of the gentile world? Or will the paranoid gentiles of the world only be satisfied if we all give up our identities as Jews??




> Its all part of the culture of Jews being taught not to speak out against other Jews, no matter what they do.


Re molestation victims being reluctant to come out in the open, I seem to recall some problems with *Catholic priests* covering for other Catholic priests who were known child-molesters. Very sad. But I let the Catholic Church handle their internal problems themselves, not wasting a lot of time my time trying to prove how evil and repressive Catholic culture might be. It's their business, not mine.

In reference to the Jewish reluctance to openly criticize other Jews in certain circumstances, this is a religious observance, taught by the Chofetz Chaim, who wrote extensively on the Laws of Lashon Hara (Law re an evil tongue). Religious Jews are taught not to gossip and slander, especially not against non-Jews, but it is a grave sin to gossip and slander against anyone. Only 20% of Jews on average are religious, more in Israel, perhaps less in America these days. Most of the balance have probably not even heard of the laws against gossip and slander.

Gossip is saying something true about someone that denigrates them. Slander is saying something false about someone that denigrates them. There are shades of speech and the laws must be studied to understand them completely. But it is not against the Laws of Lashon Hara for someone to speak out when they have been molested. Anyone who claims such a thing or believes such a thing is misunderstanding these laws. In fact, there are many notable exceptions to these laws where it would be a sin not to speak out. I have listened to Torah lessons on the Laws of Lashon Hara, and have studied it for years now. To observe them is a great improvement of character, and makes for a much more pleasant life among one's family and friends, and even a healthier life of the mind. 

Jews speak out against other Jews all the time in Israel, and in America, and most of the time, they are not observing the Laws of Lashon Hara. When religious Jews speak on politics, it is a refreshing experience, as I hear them speak the truth, but it is not full of the bitterness and back-biting I hear so often in American politics. In short, when the Laws of Lashon Hara are observed in public discourse, the tendency is to argue the issue, and not the person.

Historically, we have tended not to air our dirty laundry in front of gentiles because we have had
*bigger fish to fry* approximately every hundred years, give or take. We've dealt with our problems without the "help" of the non-Jewish outside world. I think it was the smart thing to do, under the circumstances.

"1st century - Genocide of the Jews by the Romans (‘First Jewish War’)

2nd century - Genocide of the Jews by the Romans (‘Diaspora Revolt’ and ‘Second Jewish War’)

4th century - Following Emperor Constantine's Council of Nicaea (325), all sorts of imperial measures against the Jews, special taxes, prohibition on new synagogues, and prohibition of Christian-Jewish marriages.[00]

Church father Ambrose encourages burning of synagogues so as to abolish Judaism.

5th century - Atacks against Jewish communities during Holy Week, including the burning of synagogues.[00] A great massacre of Jews in Alexandria.

[There is a relative pause in anti-Jewish attacks, and relative tolerance toward Jews, due to the collapse of the political structure of the Roman Empire. Once the German aristocracies that conquered Europe converted to Catholicism, and the empire was reconstituted as the Germanic Holy Roman Empire of the Middle Ages, the attacks are renewed.]

11th century - Crusaders massacre Jewish communities in the Rhineland.

12th century - Crusaders massacre Jews in Europe; persecution in Spain.

13th century - Forced conversions of Jews all over Europe.

14th century - Black Plague is blamed on Jews. Perhaps three hundred Jewish communities are wiped out. Jews in the Rhineland are exterminated. Jews in Seville are massacred, followed by widespread pogroms in Iberia.

15th century - Spanish inquisition. Many Jews are killed. More than 150,000 are expelled from Spain.

16th century - Inquisition becomes pan-European phenomenon.

17th century - Inquisition continues.

19th century - In 1827 the Russian Tsar began a process of slow-genocide against the Eastern Jews, by forced conscription into the Russian army for Jewish boys, starting at the age of eight. Somewhat later the rate of conscription for some populations of Jews was raised to 5 times higher than what was applied to any other population, and matching the rate of groups selected for special punishment. The terms of service in the Russian army were 25 years.[0]

19th century - Widespread pogroms against the Eastern Jews in the Russian Empire.[1]

20th century - Widespread pogroms against the Eastern Jews in the Russian Empire, and then a genocide by the German Nazis all over Europe."

Excerpted from *The modern "Protocols of Zion"*  by Dr. Francisco Gil-White.

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## revolutionisnow

Never heard of Shimon Perez or Yair Lapid, so how can I "take their side". Being for or against the invasion of Palestine/Zionism is like being pro or against the Iraq war, or Democrat or Republican, not exactly a controversial subject. I believe many of the anti war groups are just more controlled opposition anyways. Just look at some of the ridiculous confrontations that Code Pink has with important politicians and ask yourself how they get access to those events, and why they are not manhandled and put in jail for awhile like anyone else would be. Also look how fast they switched sides and became silent on the wars now that a Democrat is President. Zionism is just a small part of the puzzle anyways. 

As far as the huge range of non-kosher items, that is false, if you look at the labeling of almost any pre packaged food it has a kosher certification on it. I can take a photo of a few random items in my cupboard if needed for further proof. But your denial of the existence is pretty typical and is actually helping to prove my point. Would you have a problem paying a Halal or Catholic tax on all food? As far as Jews moving to Israel, that solves nothing, as when they move there they still retain their other citizenship, use it as some sort of second vacation home, and then if they were ever to commit a severe crime in their home country they are still able to flee to Israel which is like a safe house for criminals, as there are no extradition treaties. 

I am well aware of the Jew expulsions, and the actual average is about every 20 years over the past century. What I don't understand is why they don't learn from the experiences though. If I was a good Jew and these other bad ones were ruining it for the rest of us every country that we went to, not just once or twice, but continually over and over, well I would have to reconsider these Laws of Lashon Hara. Some of the lower income communities in the US have started a similar campaign revolving around the slogan "stop snitching". So if someone kills or robs your neighbor, their culture promotes keeping your mouth shut. You look at the crime rates in these communities and really wonder how anyone could think this policy is beneficial? I guess it is if you are a criminal.

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## ElyaKatz

> Never heard of Shimon Perez


He's the current President of Israel, and has been the Prime Minister several times, as well as Foreign Minister. He wrote a book called "The New Middle East" and is one of the leading politicians who has been pushing forward all the various failed peace plans. Considered very, very "dovish".




> or Yair Lapid, so how can I "take their side".


Yair Lapid, is the host of the show, who's video you first linked, with the alleged Israeli Mossad agents. Son of Tommy Lapid, both also very dovish (Land for peace people). 

My point is, that you seem to me to discount the words of Jews who you disagree with _because they are Jews_, (you claim they are biased) while taking seriously the words of Jews you agree with, again, because they are Jews (being Jewish and agreeing with your bias bolsters your position). 

That's called having your cake and eating it too. Try it sometime. It doesn't work.




> Being for or against the invasion of Palestine/Zionism is like being pro or against the Iraq war, or Democrat or Republican, not exactly a controversial subject.


It's best to take a strong position on these international conflicts when you have educated yourself on all sides of the issue. Otherwise, you are only reacting according to your own natural inclinations, rather than the facts. That's an emotional response, not advisable where international politics are concerned. This type of approach will make you prone to react to pictures and photos of suffering without considering the factual origins of that suffering. A person who makes decisions on that basis alone would not have been the type to have voted in favor of separation between England and the American colonies. Too many amputated legs.

The fact that you have no idea who Shimon Perez is tells me you know little about the real issues of Israel or the Arabs in the region, their history, what the conflict is really about. Do you know who Yitzchak Rabin is? Or Yitzchak Shamir? Tzippi Livni? Ehud Olmert? Ehud Barack? Tzipi Hotobeli?




> As far as the huge range of non-kosher items, that is false, if you look at the labeling of almost any pre packaged food it has a kosher certification on it.


I have to look at the labeling all the time. When it comes to processed food, my choices are very limited. Like I said, I keep a kosher kitchen, a strict kosher kitchen. I know whereof I speak.




> I can take a photo of a few random items in my cupboard if needed for further proof.


Showing me prepackaged food with kosher symbols from your kitchen cabinet will not prove whether there is a high percentage of prepackaged kosher items or not. It depends on what area of the country you live in. In some locations, it's almost impossible to find a decent array of kosher items, and in other places, it's very easy. I've had both experiences as I've traveled.




> But your denial of the existence is pretty typical and is actually helping to prove my point.


What point would that be? What am I denying? Kosher certification is something a company can choose or not. It's not a "tax". Depending on the market, a company will see a much larger portion of the market go to their product if those products are certified kosher. At other times, it is of little benefit to the manufacturer and so kosher certification is not pursued. 




> Would you have a problem paying a Halal or Catholic tax on all food?


Halal certification is certainly the right of Muslims to obtain, if they can either start up companies that produce Halal foods, as is the case with many kosher foods, or work with non-Muslim companies to get Halal certification. Catholics do not have eating restrictions that resemble Jewish and Islamic eating restrictions, so that is a non-issue.




> As far as Jews moving to Israel, that solves nothing, as when they move there they still retain their other citizenship, use it as some sort of second vacation home, and then if they were ever to commit a severe crime in their home country they are still able to flee to Israel which is like a safe house for criminals, as there are no extradition treaties.



*Questions and answers on dual US/other citizenship*. Looks to me like dual Israel/American citizens are hardly the exception these days. In the case of crimes there are extradition treaties between the US and Israel. 




> I am well aware of the Jew expulsions, and the actual average is about every 20 years over the past century. What I don't understand is why they don't learn from the experiences though. If I was a good Jew and these other bad ones were ruining it for the rest of us every country that we went to, not just once or twice, but continually over and over, well I would have to reconsider these Laws of Lashon Hara.


As I said, the Laws of Lashon Hara are more complicated than you make it out, and most Jews, who are not religious are not even aware of them, let alone observant of them. If someone commits a crime, Jewish or not, and I am privy to it, I am also obligated, under Jewish law, to tell the authorities. We are obligated to obey the laws of the country we live in. 




> Some of the lower income communities in the US have started a similar campaign revolving around the slogan "stop snitching". So if someone kills or robs your neighbor, their culture promotes keeping your mouth shut. You look at the crime rates in these communities and really wonder how anyone could think this policy is beneficial? I guess it is if you are a criminal.


That may be. I don't know, but these types of "campaigns" would not apply to Jews. Historically, in nations where Jews were under constant threat of life and limb, then Jewish courts did their best to deal with criminals. They were very strict. Jewish crime was much lower than in the outside gentile world due to the very real fact that riskiing excommunication from the Jewish community was to risk death at the hands of gentiles.

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## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

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## ElyaKatz

> The Jew has no authority over the gentile or Christian.


First of all, we both hold the Hebrew Scriptures as G-d's word. I do not hold the NT as G-d's word, so it's pretty laughable to quote it to me. I don't care.

Second of all, I am not attempting to exercise authority over gentiles or Christians. The purpose in my discussions here is to point out that the "Zionists are taking over the US" boloney is a red herring, a distraction. I've proven it with my links, time and time again. I doubt you've read one link. You've certainly never responded to any of them with an on-point post.

To think that the smallest nation in the world, 13 million souls spread all over the world, mostly poor and struggling, could do as much damage to the great America, some 300 million very capable, intelligent and free souls, as some claim here, is to insult Americans. 




> New Testament...


Go ahead. Live by your NT. No one is trying to stop you. I have reasoned with you as a friend, even when you are quite rude to me, asking you to crack your mind open a bit, but no one is forcing you to do a thing. And on that note, I have another recommendation: *Restoring the Abrahamic Faith* by James Tabor. Yes, I've read it. 

I and my fellow Jews choose to live by our Scriptures. And part of that lifestyle includes living in Eretz Israel if and when we so choose (more like when HKB"H choose for us to return) without harassment by gentiles, be they Arab or otherwise. Since gentiles can't seem to resist harassing Jews wherever we live, sovereignty is obviously the only solution. 




> If you would like to be saved and learn more about Jesus Christ I do know a couple people around here that would be happy to discuss the Christian savior and the origins of Christianity at great length.


According to the Tanach, there is no one besides the Creator. He makes that fact very clear. HKB"H is the only Savior for mankind and He stands alone. As far as messiahs go, when there is peace and every man knows G-d without having to have his neighbor teach him, that is when we know we are in the *messianic era*.

Messiah ben David is HKB"H's messenger. Yes, a great man, a great messenger, but a man. He is not a "savior". Man-god saviors are Greek/Hellenistic and pagan concepts, totally anathema to the Hebrew mind and the Hebrew prophets. To worship a messiah, even Messiah ben David, as if he were HKB"H is idolatry. It is against the entire Torah, and is punishable by death.




> Libertarians have been wanting their own country or territory.  Instead of remote islands maybe the Christians among them should consider snatching up some prime real estate in the middle east based on the fact they are rightful heirs according to God's promise.  If I am getting involved Palestine is going to be a 3 way split because I don't want to get shorted on my inheritance.


I really don't think that's advisable, but who am I to stop you? There are some tragic prophecies directed at those nations who would rise up against the children of Israel after she has been regathered from her long night of exile. _"Behold, I am making Jerusalem a cup of poison for all the peoples all around.; and also Judah shall take part in the siege of Jerusalem._ (my guess, these are turncoat Jews -- Ellie Katz) _It shall be on that day that I will make Jerusalem for all the peoples a burdensome stone, all whose bearers become lacerated; and all the nations of the world will gather against it." Zechariah 12:2-4._ 

Eretz Israel has refused to produce anything for foreigners who attempt to own her. The children of Israel are HKB"H's only legal tenants. He allows only His legal tenants of the Land of Israel to cause her flourish and produce.

HKB"H owns the world. He has deemed it right to give Eretz Israel to the children of Israel. Be happy that He has given you a beautiful, large land, protected by two huge oceans, comparatively peaceful borders, particularly with Canada, a fertile and varied land with awe inspiring mountains and vistas, and a lovely constitution, the most ingenious founding document ever written by men. Nothing could have been given to you, or to the American people without His approval. 

I advise you to stop being distracted by issues that are none of your business and get to work protecting what has been given to you here in America. You are coveting a possession that is clearly not yours and sticking your nose into a battle that is not your affair. By focusing so much of your energies, and wasting your energies, on the question of Zion, you are both coveting (10 commandments) and fighting another's battle. _"Like one who seizes a dog's ears, [so is] he who grows wrathful over a dispute that is not his." Proverbs 26:17_ You mock with your own scriptures, that is, if you consider the Old Testament as more than a mantle on which to rest the NT.

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## ElyaKatz

> Correct answer was Esau/Edomites.


Edom/Esau is *Rome*, which then morphed into Western culture, religion etc. It is Daniel's fourth and most destructive kingdom. And it is at perpetual warfare with guess who? Right. The Jewish people.

Israel doesn't suddenly become Esau. That makes no sense. Ishmael remains Ishmael, Edom/Esau has always been understood to be Rome/the West, and Israel is always Israel.  And both Ishmael and Esau/Edom are jealous and want to replace the children of Israel (what is left of us, Judah, Levi and 1/2 of Benjamin). It's a big family fight over birthright claims.

This Judahite vs. Jews stuff is another piece of linguistic nonsense. There is no "Judahite" in Hebrew. There are Yehudim, period...which is translated into English as "Jews".

Look at the geneology sometime. Jacob had a twelve sons; Reuben, Simeon, Levi, *Judah* (that's Yehuda in Hebrew, from which we get the plural, "Yehudim"), Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, daughter Dinah, Joseph, and Benjamin. Many years later, after Solomon's death, the Kingdom was divided into Yisroel and Yehuda, north and south. Then, many years after that, and after many warnings by the prophets, the idolatrous northern tribes were taken into captivity by the Assyrians, and dispersed. The lost their separate identity as a nation. The 1/2 of the tribe of Benjamin, the tribe of Levi and the tribe of Judah are all that is left. For now.

That's another way we will know we have entered the "messianic era". The lost tribes will be restored, Judah (shorthand for the 1/2 tribe of Benjamin, Levi and Judah) and Israel will become one kingdom again, living in peace together. And Esau/Edom and Ishmael will finally get used to the idea that they have a place in G-d's heart, but they can't have the place G-d has reserved for the children of Israel. And vice-versa. There's plenty of Jews who try to reject the place G-d has reserved for them too. It's like, world-wide sibling rivalry, and it's nuts. Just get over it. G-d made His decisions already.

The beauty of the Jewish view on Yisroel, Edom, and Ishmael is this: No one is locked into destructive roles. We can each choose to serve HKB"H, if we are willing to learn what He expects of us, and then to do it. I personally recommend a couple of books, for the open-minded: *Restoring the Abrahamic Faith* by James Tabor, good food for thought. I take issue with some things, but then, we should feel free to disagree with one another respectfully, as long as we can find the Scripture to back our claims, following logical and accepted rules for interpretation, of course. The second book is *The Path of the Righteous Gentile*. And for some, returning to their Jewish roots will be what is needed.

Every people has a vital purpose in G-d's plan, Jew and gentile. Everyone can have a place at G-d's table. The only people who are excluded are those who choose to exclude themselves.

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## lester1/2jr

revolutionisnow-  thanks so much for making opposition to israel influence on american foreign policy look like nothing but fruitcake anti semitism.

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## revolutionisnow

If I was having to pay some secret Buddhist tax on all my food, if dual Cambodian citizens were obtaining high positions in government, if Cambodians were destroying the moral fabric of our country through their control of Hollywood and the media, I would be opposed to it. If Cambodian bankers were controlling almost all of our central banks and buying off our politicians or if Cambodians were indoctrinating our school children with guilt of some hoax while brushing their own Khmer Rouge under the rug and into Orwell's memory hole I would be opposed to it. But that would be ok to speak out against right?

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## lester1/2jr

it's very okay to speak out against israel and israels obvious mafia like organizations in DC influencing our foreign policy.  adding conspiracy theories waters those criticisms down and makes them look as unprovable as 9/11 alternate theories.  get it?

----------


## revolutionisnow

The Kosher tax isnt a theory if that is what you are talking about, some would just have you believe it is though. Just open your cabinet and look for any items with a K or U and a circle around it.






> Edom/Esau is *Rome*


I already showed you the encyclopedia page showing why you say this, and how it is not true.

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

----------


## lester1/2jr

I don't know about the OT haviong no bearing on christians, but it IS our homeland there.  that's why we had a thing called the Crusades which, like zionism, turned out to be a big mistake

----------


## YumYum

The Zionists collaborated with the Nazis in the 1930's and early 40's. This is a crazy world we live.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n4p29_Weber.html

----------


## revolutionisnow

Yes they did, and then when Germany started losing the war that is when they started creating the holocaust story, as they still wanted to make sure they got their own homeland, even if Germany was not going to be the ones able to help them get it. The zionists used the labor camps as training facilities to provide them with useful skills that they could use in their new homeland.

----------


## jmdrake

> If you have a problem with that, then explain to me why the Spaniards had the right to reclaim Spain and the Kingdom of Granada from the Moors after 800 years of occupation.


The Moors kicked the Spaniards out and the Spaniards came back and kicked the Moors out.

The Romans kicked the Jews out, Arabs moved in many years later and lived peaceably with Jews who returned.  Great Britain took over the region under the "Palestine mandate" (I know you think that the term "Palestine" doesn't exist), Lord Balfour gave Lord Rothchild a promise to give Israel over to Zionists in return for help in WWI, Adolf Hitler struck a deal with Zionists in order to get their help overturning a boycott started by non Zionist Jews, after defeating Germany (and after suffering the first modern middle east terrorist bombing at the hands of Zionists), Britain made good on its promise to Lord Rothchild, and as they say the rest is history.

http://www.livius.org/ja-jn/jewish_wars/jwar04.html

http://www.mideastweb.org/mandate.htm

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Pr...%20Declaration

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ust/Black.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle690085.ece

I have to ask.  Does it bother you that it 2006 the nation of Israel celebrated a terrorist attack that killed 92 people?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> According to Samuel Friedman, in an article in USA Today, he said that the Palestinians are only allowed 5 gallons of water a day per person. Do you think that it is a fair way to treat humans?


Reporters do not always report the whole truth YumYum. Below is the other side of the story. That is also the name of an excellent book. *The Other Side of the Story* by Yehudis Samet.

*PA Violating Water Accords as Israel Faces Crisis*

by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu

*(IsraelNN.com)* The Water Authority rejects Amnesty International claims, to be released in a report on Tuesday, that Israelis whet their thirst at the expense of Palestinian Authority Arabs. The Water Authority countered that PA Arabs continually violate Oslo Accords by illegally drilling for water and spilling untreated sewage.

“The Amnesty report is selective and incorrect, to make an understatement,” said spokesmen for Water Authority chairman Uri Shore.

Despite several claims by human rights organizations that Israel has taken water away from what is now the Palestinian Authority, the amount of water available to PA Arabs since the Six-Day War in 1967 actually has gone up while Israelis have suffered a whopping 70 percent drop in their resources.

“The amount of natural water, including underground aquifers, the amount of water available annually to every Israeli before 1967 was 500 cubic meters a year,” the Water Authority explained. “Today the figure is 149 cubic meters, while water available to PA Arabs actually has increased by 22 percent, from 87 cubic meters to 105 cubic meters a year per capita.”

*Click here to continue reading*

----------


## ElyaKatz

> The OT is a history book that has no bearing on Christianity other than a desire to understand the law before Jesus Christ replaced it.
> 
> I am not butting in at all.  Through Christ, Christians are rightful heirs.  Christians should immigrate in large numbers to the region to claim their rightful inheritance.


Good luck with that...

----------


## ElyaKatz

> The Zionists collaborated with the Nazis in the 1930's and early 40's. This is a crazy world we live.
> 
> http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n4p29_Weber.html


Yup. That's what happens when Jews abandon the faith of their fathers.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> If I was having to pay some secret Buddhist tax on all my food, if dual Cambodian citizens were obtaining high positions in government, if Cambodians were destroying the moral fabric of our country through their control of Hollywood and the media, I would be opposed to it. If Cambodian bankers were controlling almost all of our central banks and buying off our politicians or if Cambodians were indoctrinating our school children with guilt of some hoax while brushing their own Khmer Rouge under the rug and into Orwell's memory hole I would be opposed to it. But that would be ok to speak out against right?


Assuming this was all true. But you haven't made your case that any of this is true, either for the Cambodians, Buddhists or Jews. It's all urban (or suburban or hick) legend.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> The Romans kicked the Jews out, Arabs moved in many years later and lived peaceably with Jews who returned.


Their was a majority of Am HaAretz (Jewish peasant farmers) on the land until 636 CE, when militant Muslim settlers began expropriating Jewish land and labor. That was the beginning of the Jewish farmer being separated from his land. Repeated attempts on the part of Jews and groups of Jews to return to their homes were made, but were thwarted by various foreign rulers. The Muslim Arabs treated the Jews as they always do when they get political control of a region, as dhimmis. This was the history between Jew and Muslim throughout most of the Middle East.

YouTube - The Forgotten Refugees - The Only Authentic Version - Part 1



> Great Britain took over the region under the "Palestine mandate" (I know you think that the term "Palestine" doesn't exist),


Never said it doesn't exist. The name never applied to Arabs until after 1964 when the PLO took over Fatah. It applied to the region, and to the Jews who lived in the region. Arab leadership, including the late King Hussein, and PLO leadership have admitted publicly that co-opting to term to apply to Arabs was a PR ploy, and that there is no such thing as the "palestinian people". It is a region, and when applied to people, it has historically meant the Jew who live in the region. But then, history doesn't mean much to most Americans.




> Lord Balfour gave Lord Rothchild a promise to give Israel over to Zionists in return for help in WWI, Adolf Hitler struck a deal with Zionists in order to get their help overturning a boycott started by non Zionist Jews,


Your facts are skewed. The boycott was not started by non-Zionist Jews. It was started by the Jewish people in various Jewish organizations, both in America and in Europe, and not supported by Jewish leadership. You also fail to make a distinction between Labor Zionists and Revisionist Zionists, the two largest factions. There were also the Religious Zionists, represented by Mizrachi.

*The Crisis of 1933*
_
"When Hitler came to power in 1933 outrages against the German Jews began immediately. This provoked a storm of protest all over the world. But, especially, it provoked ordinary Jews to organize to boycott German goods and services and sink the German economy. Many gentiles (non-Jews) joined them. This brought the Third Reich to its knees and within an inch of destruction. Hitler barely survived. What saved him?

The established Jewish leaders did.

To those who don’t know Jewish history (almost everybody) this is amazing, inconceivable. In fact, it was normal. This article will cover the 1933 crisis, relying on the massively detailed work of Jewish historian Edwin Black, who documents what happened in The Transfer Agreement: The Dramatic Story of the Pact Between the Third Reich and Jewish Palestine (1983, Carroll & Graf). But in order to give a satisfactory account of why Jewish leaders behaved the way they did in 1933, I will begin briefly by explaining the context of the Jewish experience as they came out of the Middle Ages into the modern world, for without this context what happened in 1933 is difficult to comprehend._

If you really want to be enlightened on the true history of the region, I suggest you read Dr. Gil-White's work. He used to be pro-palestinian, until he started reading the actual history.

*On Dr. Gil-White:*

_"Francisco Gil-White has a Masters in Social Sciences from the University of Chicago and a PhD in biological and cultural anthropology from UCLA. His PhD thesis work was in rural Western Mongolia, where he did 14 months of fieldwork studying the mutual ethnic perceptions of neighboring Torguud Mongol and Kazakh nomadic herders. Until June 2006, he was Assistant Professor of Psychology at the University of Pennsylvania (he was fired for investigating the real aims of US foreign policy). His research is broadly concerned with the evolution of the proximate mechanisms responsible for social learning and social perception and cognition. His main interests are the evolution of ethnic and prestige processes, the evolution of language, the structure of narrative memory, the structure and interaction of media and political processes, and the laws of history."_




> after defeating Germany (and after suffering the first modern middle east terrorist bombing at the hands of Zionists), Britain made good on its promise to Lord Rothchild, and as they say the rest is history.


You fail here to mention the terrorism by the Arabs, which was backed and assisted by the British.

*The 1929 Arab Terror Attack: When Hebron Became Occupied Territory*


_“On hearing screams in a room I went up a sort of tunnel passage and saw an Arab in the act of cutting off a child’s head with a sword. He had already hit him and was having another cut, but on seeing me he tried to aim the stroke at me, but missed; he was practically on the muzzle of my rifle. I shot him low in the groin. Behind him was a Jewish woman smothered in blood with a man I recognized as a police constable named Issa Sherif from Jaffa in mufti. He was standing over the woman with a dagger in his hand. He saw me and bolted into a room close by and tried to shut me out-shouting in Arabic, ‘Your Honor, I am a policeman.’ I got into the room and shot him (Bernard Wasserstein, The British in Palestine: The Mandatory Government and the Arab-Jewish Conflict 1917-1929).”_

The bombings done by the Irgun, primarily aimed at property, were in response to repeated pogroms such as the one described above, and to the British arming and aid to Arab murderers and rapists, while jailing Jews who had the chutzpah to defend themselves against these attacks. Much like how the British treated the Americans. 

Some patriot you are, to not recognize the historical methodology of the British in nearly every colony they "managed". Do you really think American colonists rebelled primarily over "taxation without representation", over tea?? King George committed atrocities against the American colonists. Sedition and treason laws were applied liberally. The British have exploited and mismanaged nearly all territories they have ever controlled throughout British history, with the Brits being masters at pitting native populations against one another in order to start perpetual wars so they can control the region. Their management techniques had not evolved significantly by the time they were awarded, if you can call it that, the Palestine Mandate.

I encourage you to go over some of these articles, all claims made being amply supported by footnotes. *Articles on antisemitism and the Arab-Israeli conflict*

I have been a student of Middle Eastern and World History for 40 years. You can't pull much over on me. This history has been amply covered in this thread already. The time frame has been covered here, I've already refuted the points you attempt to make in other posts several times over. I suggest you actually read a thread before joining it. It's like coming into the middle of an intense conversation, and responding to the last point being made, without knowing anything of the last hour's discussion. For your sake I am reviewing a bit, in this post.

“The British, in the postwar years [after WWI], were attempting to maintain their Middle East territories with very limited forces and were indeed concerned with minimizing local unrest. But, of course, this does not account for Mandate officers working as agents provocateurs and stirring up anti-Jewish violence or for British authorities failing to quell Arab riots when they were fully able to do so. Nor does it explain the [British Mandate] Military Administration’s preventing local Jewish units -- elements of the Jewish Battalions -- from coming to the defense of the Jews of Jerusalem. [The Revisionist Zionist leader Vladimir Zeev] Jabotinsky, who tried to organize defense, was arrested by the British and sentenced to fifteen years’ imprisonment. He was soon released but only in the context of an amnesty extended also to the rioters. The British chose to construe the Jewish units’ attempts to defend the Jews of Jerusalem as an intolerable breach of military discipline and disbanded the units.” -- from Levin, K. 2005. The Oslo syndrome: Delusions of a people under siege. Hanover, NH: Smith and Kraus. (p203), as quoted in Dr. Francisco Gil-White's article, *How did the 'Palestinian movement' emerge? The British sponsored it. Then the German Nazis, and the US*. 




> I have to ask.  Does it bother you that it 2006 the nation of Israel celebrated a terrorist attack that killed 92 people?


Go on. What are you referring to?

----------


## revolutionisnow

> Assuming this was all true. But you haven't made your case that any of this is true, either for the Cambodians, Buddhists or Jews. It's all urban (or suburban or hick) legend.


I've already posted extensive lists of names with their positions not very long ago, which one do you need more proof of?

----------


## jmdrake

> Their was a majority of Am HaAretz (Jewish peasant farmers) on the land until 636 CE, when militant Muslim settlers began expropriating Jewish land and labor. That was the beginning of the Jewish farmer being separated from his land. Repeated attempts on the part of Jews and groups of Jews to return to their homes were made, but were thwarted by various foreign rulers. The Muslim Arabs treated the Jews as they always do when they get political control of a region, as dhimmis. This was the history between Jew and Muslim throughout most of the Middle East.


Jews at the time did better under the Muslims than they did under the crusaders.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/hist...Crusades.shtml




> Never said it doesn't exist. The name never applied to Arabs until after 1964 when the PLO took over Fatah.


Your title asks "Where is Palestine"?  The answer is the area of the British Palestine mandate.  




> Your facts are skewed. The boycott was not started by non-Zionist Jews. It was started by the Jewish people, and not supported by Jewish leadership. You also fail to make a distinction between Labor Zionists and Revisionist Zionists, the two largest factions. There were also the Religious Zionists, represented by Mizrachi.


Those who undermined the boycott were not zionist.  (Hence the term "non zionist.)  Don't know why you're even trying to quibble that point.  Whether it was started by the Jewish people versus the Jewish leadership or the fact that there are splits among zionists is all a non sequitur.  Non zionist Jews started the boycott, zionist Jews worked *with Adolf Hitler* to undermine it.  That statement stands on its own.





> You fail here to mention the terrorism by the Arabs, which was backed and assisted by the British.


Ah.  So now you're trying to excuse a mass bombing with a moral relativism attack?  Those evil British had it coming?  

*The 1929 Arab Terror Attack: When Hebron Became Occupied Territory*

I went to your link.  Didn't see your evidence of British involvement.  Fail.




> The bombings done by the Irgun, primarily aimed at property, were in response to repeated pogroms such as the one described above, and to the British arming and aid to Arab murderers and rapists, while jailing Jews who had the chutzpah to defend themselves against these attacks. Much like how the British treated the Americans. Some patriot you are, to not recognize the historical methodology of the British in nearly every colony they "managed".


Right.  I should be a patriot for Israel like you and support their terrorism.    Next you'll be telling me that the attack by Israel on the U.S.S. Liberty was the fault of the United States.





> Go on. What are you referring to?


I gave you the link.  Go back and read it.  Do you support Israel celebrating over a terrorist bombing of a hotel *that killed 92 people*?  If Israel celebrates its cowardly attack on the U.S.S. Liberty will you support that too?  There's nothing wrong with supporting Israel when they are right, but supporting outright terrorism is just silly.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I've already posted extensive lists of names with their positions not very long ago, which one do you need more proof of?


Extensive lists of WHAT exactly??

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I gave you the link.  Go back and read it.  Do you support Israel celebrating over a terrorist bombing of a hotel *that killed 92 people*?  If Israel celebrates its cowardly attack on the U.S.S. Liberty will you support that too?  There's nothing wrong with supporting Israel when they are right, but supporting outright terrorism is just silly.


Oh you mean your links with absolutely no explanation as to what the subject matter is? I had to pick through them all in order to find what you're referring to. I try to be more considerate of my readers, knowing no one has all day to read dozens of articles. And have you read any of my links, or anything besides the last few posts of this thread?

I'm amazed at the inability of most here to actually reply to any of my links, certainly not on-point. Maybe they're afraid they will melt if they read something that doesn't agree with their natural inclinations? 

Re the King David link, I was a bit busy replying to your many historical distortions. But I'm ready for you now. In reviewing the history of warfare, t's all about context. In war stuff happens. I think the non-Jewish world is still not used to the Jew who refuses to get beat up continually without fighting back. We did so because we were not permitted to legally bear arms in Europe since medieval times. We regained our natural rights to do so upon regaining our national sovereignty. The British, who were aiding the Arabs in their rapacious pogroms and laughing as they watched left. That's a good thing.

*The Bombing of the King David Hotel*

_"The King David Hotel was the site of the British military command and the British Criminal Investigation Division. The Irgun chose it as a target after British troops invaded the Jewish Agency June 29, 1946, and confiscated large quantities of documents. At about the same time, more than 2,500 Jews from all over Palestine were placed under arrest. The information about Jewish Agency operations, including intelligence activities in Arab countries, was taken to the King David Hotel.

A week later, news of a massacre of 40 Jews in a pogrom in Poland reminded the Jews of Palestine how Britain's restrictive immigration policy had condemned thousands to death.

Irgun leader Menachem Begin stressed his desire to avoid civilian casualties and said three telephone calls were placed, one to the hotel, another to the French Consulate, and a third to the Palestine Post, warning that explosives in the King David Hotel would soon be detonated.

On July 22, 1946, the calls were made. The call into the hotel was apparently received and ignored. Begin quotes one British official who supposedly refused to evacuate the building, saying: "We don't take orders from the Jews." As a result, when the bombs exploded, the casualty toll was high: a total of 91 killed and 45 injured. Among the casualties were 15 Jews. Few people in the hotel proper were injured by the blast.

In contrast to Arab attacks against Jews, which were widely hailed as heroic actions, the Jewish National Council denounced the bombing of the King David.

For decades the British denied they had been warned. In 1979, however, a member of the British Parliament introduced evidence that the Irgun had indeed issued the warning. He offered the testimony of a British officer who heard other officers in the King David Hotel bar joking about a Zionist threat to the headquarters. The officer who overheard the conversation immediately left the hotel and survived."_

What the Israelis are celebrating is victory over their murderous oppressors. Not the deaths of those oppressors.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Jews at the time did better under the Muslims than they did under the crusaders.


Really. And how much have you read on the subject? Did you even bother watching the video I've posted on Jewish life under Islam in the Middle East? There are, I believe 5 parts. Would do you some good to watch them sometime. Your replies are coming fast and furious here, without the time to consider what I've written or posted. If the Jews did "do better under the Muslims than they did under the crusaders" as you claim, that isn't saying much. It's a difference of minute degrees.




> Your title asks "Where is Palestine"?  The answer is the area of the British Palestine mandate.


That is not all the title asks. The question is meant to make a point. The point being, that the Palestine Mandate was a region, a trust, and it was allocated to Jews, not Arabs, under the League of Nations Charter. Palestinians were Jews, not Arabs. Read the post.




> Those who undermined the boycott were not zionist.  (Hence the term "non zionist.)  Don't know why you're even trying to quibble that point.  Whether it was started by the Jewish people versus the Jewish leadership or the fact that there are splits among zionists is all a non sequitur.  Non zionist Jews started the boycott, zionist Jews worked *with Adolf Hitler* to undermine it.  That statement stands on its own.


You have a very superficial understanding of the nuances of Jewish society, and of Jewish history. Again, read my links. I am arguing your facts, which are wrong, plain and simple. First you say non-Zionist Jews undermined the boycott. Then you say non-Zionoist Jews started the boycott. Which is it? Your muddle of contradictions stand as a testament to your confusion.




> Ah.  So now you're trying to excuse a mass bombing with a moral relativism attack?  Those evil British had it coming?


No. I am saying that self-defense against the murderous policies of the British was entirely appopriate. I think maybe you would have been a Tory under British colonial rule.

*The 1929 Arab Terror Attack: When Hebron Became Occupied Territory*




> I went to your link.  Didn't see your evidence of British involvement.  Fail.


You didn't read the article then. The British stood by and did nothing, as was their habit back in the day. It is also clear that have not read anything that Dr. Francisco Gil-White. Arab leaderhip did then and *continues to torture* and murder their Arab constituency when they refuse to participate in the leadership agenda, which continues to be to eradicate the Jewish (and any "infidel") presence in the Middle East.




> Right.  I should be a patriot for Israel like you and support their terrorism.    Next you'll be telling me that the attack by Israel on the U.S.S. Liberty was the fault of the United States.


If self-defense is terrorism, (the attacks against the British by the Irgun were against military targets, not civilians) then the American revolutionaries were also terrorists. That's the end result of your moral relativism.

I hold the view as presented by John Loftus and Mark Aaron re the USS Liberty. It's not the subject of this thread. 




> There's nothing wrong with supporting Israel when they are right, but supporting outright terrorism is just silly.


So do tell me, what acts of self-defense by Israelis do you not define as terrorism?

----------


## jmdrake

> That is not all the title asks. The question is meant to make a point. The point being, that the Palestine Mandate was a region, a trust, and it was allocated to Jews, not Arabs, under the League of Nations Charter. Palestinians were Jews, not Arabs. Read the post.


Whatever you want to call it you can look on a map and see it.




> You have a very superficial understanding of the nuances of Jewish society, and of Jewish history.


Irrelevant straw man argument.  My point was never that the Jewish leaders created the boycott or that the Zionists were all one movement.  My point was and is that non zionist Jews started the boycott and zionist Jews worked with Adolf Hitler to undermine it.   Major fail on the part of your pompous ass. 




> Again, read my links. I am arguing your facts, which are wrong, plain and simple. First you say non-Zionist Jews undermined the boycott. Then you say non-Zionoist Jews started the boycott. Which is it? Your muddle of contradictions stand as a testament to your confusion.


No dufuss.  I said *non-zionist Jews started the boycott AND ZIONIST JEWS UNDERMINED IT!*  That's the whole point.  People who were zionist *WORKED WITH FREAKIN ADOLF HITLER TO UNDERMINE A BOYCOTT STARTED BY JEWS THAT WERE NOT ZIONIST!*  Got that through your thick skull yet?  You want to obfuscate the issue by talking about different factions of zionism or that the boycott was not started by the Jewish leadership *WHEN THAT WAS NEVER MY POINT!*




> No. I am saying that self-defense against the murderous policies of the British was entirely appopriate. I think maybe you would have been a Tory under British colonial rule.


Blowing up a hotel and killing innocent people is "self defense"?  You're sick.





> You didn't read the article then. The British stood by and did nothing, as was their habit back in the day.


You claimed they were behind the attacks.  Major fail on your part terrorist apologist.




> So do tell me, what acts of self-defense by Israelis do you not define as terrorism?


Well strafing the U.S.S. Liberty clearly wasn't self defense.  Blowing up a hotel isn't self defense.  I've got no problem with blowing up invading Egyptian tanks.

Regards,

John M. Drake

----------


## Cowlesy

This makes me sad 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8327188.stm




> Israel is denying Palestinians access to even the basic minimum of clean, safe water, Amnesty International says.
> 
> In a report, the human rights group says Israeli water restrictions discriminate against Palestinians in the occupied West Bank.
> 
> It says that in Gaza, Israel's blockade has brought the water and sewage system to "crisis point".
> 
> Israel says the report is flawed and the Palestinians get more water than was agreed under the 1990s peace deal.


And they wonder why these people strap bombs to themselves.

----------


## YumYum

> Reporters do not always report the whole truth YumYum. Below is the other side of the story. That is also the name of an excellent book. *The Other Side of the Story* by Yehudis Samet.
> 
> *PA Violating Water Accords as Israel Faces Crisis*
> 
> by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu
> 
> *(IsraelNN.com)* The Water Authority rejects Amnesty International claims, to be released in a report on Tuesday, that Israelis whet their thirst at the expense of Palestinian Authority Arabs. The Water Authority countered that PA Arabs continually violate Oslo Accords by illegally drilling for water and spilling untreated sewage.
> 
> The Amnesty report is selective and incorrect, to make an understatement, said spokesmen for Water Authority chairman Uri Shore.
> ...


Do you mean this story?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8327188.stm

BTW, what are we going to do with the Palestinians?

----------


## YumYum

> Yup. That's what happens when Jews abandon the faith of their fathers.


Yes, but these Jews were Zionists who worked with Hitler. Is it true that Zionists will do whatever it takes to repossess Israel? Also, are you saying these were bad Zionists?

----------


## YumYum

> Well strafing the U.S.S. Liberty clearly wasn't self defense.  Blowing up a hotel isn't self defense.  I've got no problem with blowing up invading Egyptian tanks.


I also know for a fact that it was Israeli soldiers who blew up the Marine barracks in Lebanon.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Yes, but these Jews were Zionists who worked with Hitler.


Labor Zionist leaders did. There were also Brits, Americans, and Muslims who worked with Hitler. So did Reform Rabbi Stephen Wise, while he pretended to be working against them. 

Revisionist Zionists, such at Jabotinsky and Bergman were good men. The Orthodox leaders and the lay membership were, whether Zionist or not, people who maintained their integrity and morality.




> Is it true that Zionists will do whatever it takes to repossess Israel?


I don't know. But Israel is already in the possession of the Jewish people. I do know that radical Muslims will stop at nothing to reclaim the land, and they believe it is their duty before their god to kill all Jews. According to radical Islam, until they accomplish our destruction, and force the entire world to submit to sharia, there will be no peace on the earth.




> Also, are you saying these were bad Zionists?


I think the Labor Zionist leaders were immoral in many ways. They may have had their good points too. They were socialist/communist utopian idealists. The history of utopian idealists is that they will sacrifice anything, and anyone to achieve their utopian dream. I think most of the Labor Zionist leaders (not necessarily the average man) fit this description. If the Jew abandons Torah, he will become a fanatic for some other cause, and it will not be for the good. That's our sad history.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Yes they did, and then when Germany started losing the war that is when they started creating the holocaust story, as they still wanted to make sure they got their own homeland, even if Germany was not going to be the ones able to help them get it. The zionists used the labor camps as training facilities to provide them with useful skills that they could use in their new homeland.


Like lester says, you're doing all the hard work for me. 




> revolutionisnow-  thanks so much for making opposition to israel influence on american foreign policy look like nothing but fruitcake anti semitism.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> No dufuss.  I said *non-zionist Jews started the boycott AND ZIONIST JEWS UNDERMINED IT!*  That's the whole point.  People who were zionist *WORKED WITH FREAKIN ADOLF HITLER TO UNDERMINE A BOYCOTT STARTED BY JEWS THAT WERE NOT ZIONIST!*  Got that through your thick skull yet?  You want to obfuscate the issue by talking about different factions of zionism or that the boycott was not started by the Jewish leadership *WHEN THAT WAS NEVER MY POINT!*


Here is the exact quote.




> *A.Those who undermined the boycott were not zionist.*  (Hence the term "non zionist.)  Don't know why you're even trying to quibble that point.  Whether it was started by the Jewish people versus the Jewish leadership or the fact that there are splits among zionists is all a non sequitur.  *Non zionist Jews started the boycott, B. zionist Jews worked with Adolf Hitlerto undermine it.  That statement stands on its own.*


 (letters to designate statements in question added by Ellie Katz)

What statement "stands on it's own"? Am I missing something here? Or is there a contradiction between statement A. and statement B.? 

First you need to figure out what you're saying, before we can, either of us agree or disagree on those statements.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Whatever you want to call it you can look on a map and see it.


Names matter. They are facts. Facts matter in history, in legal issues and in politics. 




> Irrelevant straw man argument.  My point was never that the Jewish leaders created the boycott or that the Zionists were all one movement.  My point was and is that non zionist Jews started the boycott and zionist Jews worked with Adolf Hitler to undermine it.


Knowing what it is your trying to say, or if you can make a coherent point is not irrelevant. You contradicted yourself. Mistakes are made. It's an easy matter to edit a post. I covered this in an earlier reply.




> Major fail on the part of your pompous ass.


I'll take it as a compliment.  Your many claims do not concur with the facts.




> No dufuss.  I said *non-zionist Jews started the boycott AND ZIONIST JEWS UNDERMINED IT!*  That's the whole point.  People who were zionist *WORKED WITH FREAKIN ADOLF HITLER TO UNDERMINE A BOYCOTT STARTED BY JEWS THAT WERE NOT ZIONIST!*  Got that through your thick skull yet?  You want to obfuscate the issue by talking about different factions of zionism or that the boycott was not started by the Jewish leadership *WHEN THAT WAS NEVER MY POINT!*


This is so entertaining. Doesn't take much does it jmdrake? 

Okay. Well, _I think_ I understand your point. Sadly, it's wrong. You are claiming divisions along the wrong lines. Just one paragraph can easily demonstrate your error. 

*The Crisis of 1933* by Dr. Francisco Gil-White

_"Doar HaYom, the Revisionist newspaper in Palestine, and Betar, the paramilitary Revisionist youth corps, were relentless. Tactics included public humiliation of businessmen trafficking in German goods, mass recruitment of boycott pledges from merchants, picket lines, disruptive demonstrations, and incessant editorials condemning those who traded with Hitler. Many thousands of dollars’ worth of German orders were canceled in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem in the first days of April alone. ...By mid-April [German] Consul Heinrich Wolff [in Palestine] was dismally reporting that the boycott was seriously damaging all German economic interests in the area.”_ footnote #151 [B]-- from Black, E. 1984. The transfer agreement: The dramatic story of the pact between the Third Reich and Jewish Palestine. New York: Carroll & Graf. -- as quoted by Dr. Gil-White in his article.

So, here was the situation back then: The stance for or against the boycott cut across Zionist and anti-Zionist lines. The Labor Zionist leadership (not the ordinary Jews) pretended to work for the boycott, while at the same time, working behind the scenes to undermine it. The Revisionist Zionist leadership and ordinary Jews, and the Orthodox leadership and ordinary Jews -- whether they were Zionist or not -- worked tirelessly to effect a complete boycott. The divisions among Jews were much more complicated than how you described it, and very difficult to discern at the time, because some people were deceiving others. The American Jewish Congress, for instance, had a large membership of Orthodox Jews, who might not have been Zionist, but were very concerned for their fellow Jews suffering under Hitler. However, rabbi Stephen Wise -- a "Reform rabbi" -- and leader of the American Jewish Congress during that time, paid lip service to the worries of his constituency, while at the same time did all he could to undermine any boycott efforts, as well as to the rescue of Jews in Nazi Germany and later Nazi Europe. It's a tragic tale.




> You claimed they were behind the attacks.  Major fail on your part terrorist apologist.


"Pompous ass. Duffuss, terrorist apologist" You are gifted at ad hominem attacks. But I don't think your method of argumentation is quite up to the task. Might explain why you choose to argue the person and not the facts. 

*I said the British were behind many Arab attacks.* Then I posted a link to the Hebron Massacre to demonstrate one such attack made by the Arabs, which the *British did nothing to stop.* I never said the British were "behind" the Hebron massacre specifically. The British were behind many Arab riots, which resulted in rape and murder. They armed and instigated the Arabs, while arresting Jews for having any arms at all for self-defense, and arresting Jews when the did defend themselves.

*Quote from post #360 by ElyaKatz*




> *The 1929 Arab Terror Attack: When Hebron Became Occupied Territory*
> 
> 
> _“On hearing screams in a room I went up a sort of tunnel passage and saw an Arab in the act of cutting off a child’s head with a sword. He had already hit him and was having another cut, but on seeing me he tried to aim the stroke at me, but missed; he was practically on the muzzle of my rifle. I shot him low in the groin. Behind him was a Jewish woman smothered in blood with a man I recognized as a police constable named Issa Sherif from Jaffa in mufti. He was standing over the woman with a dagger in his hand. He saw me and bolted into a room close by and tried to shut me out-shouting in Arabic, ‘Your Honor, I am a policeman.’ I got into the room and shot him (Bernard Wasserstein, The British in Palestine: The Mandatory Government and the Arab-Jewish Conflict 1917-1929).”_
> 
> The bombings done by the Irgun, primarily aimed at property, were in response to repeated pogroms such as the one described above, and to the British arming and aid to Arab murderers and rapists, while jailing Jews who had the chutzpah to defend themselves against these attacks. Much like how the British treated the Americans.


If you would like to read a more complete account of how the British instigated Arab riots against the Jews of the Yishuv, the Jewish community of the Palestine Mandate, you can read the following:

*How did the 'Palestinian movement' emerge? The British sponsored it. Then the German Nazis, and the US.*

Another point on this. Standing around watching a riot, which includes rape and murder is considered being an accessory to the crime in any competent court of law. If there were British soldiers in the vicinity when the Hebron massacre occurred, then they would be as culpable as the Arabs. I don't know that they were present. The Arabs claimed they were according to the article I linked, but that could have been in order to lure the Jews into a false sense of security...the Jews still being very naive about the intentions of the Brits at the time.

However, the Brits were the Mandated authorities in the region, who's legal obligation was, according to the Palestine Mandate, to facilitate the "close settlement" of Jews. Shall I link that for you? I have done it before. It's an easily proven fact. 

Standing around with one's thumb up one's ass while rioting, murder and rape are happening is not considered "facilitating" of any sort of human settlement, Jewish or otherwise. Those were the longstanding conditions under which the Jews of the Yishuv had to suffer. In that climate, something such at the King David hotel bombing was inevitable. It was the military command post of the very hypocritical and phony enemies of the Jewish community there. Even Jews will only suffer so much before retaliating.

Even though the Brits had been responsible for so much death and mayhem among both Arabs and Jews in the region, for they played to the Arab effendis, which oppressed the Arab fellahin, the object of the bombing was the destruction of British military headquarters, not the death of people. The blood of the 92 people who died that day is on the heads of the British Mandatory authorities of the time.




> Well strafing the U.S.S. Liberty clearly wasn't self defense.


*USS Liberty* according to intelligence studies by John Loftus and Mark Aarons




> Blowing up a hotel and killing innocent people is "self defense"?  You're sick. Blowing up a hotel isn't self defense.


The fact is, the King David Hotel was the military headquarters for the British military command. It was a military target. The British were warned and chose to ignore the warning. It was a good thing that the British left. The fact that innocent people died is a tragedy, and that fact is born on the heads of the British, who refused to evacuate, because, in their own words, "We don't take orders from Jews."

I never said that it was a good thing that innocent people died. That is never good. But sometimes, in war, it happens.

*The Bombing of the King David Hotel*

----------


## rpfan2008

> Names matter. They are facts. Facts matter in history, in legal issues and in politics.


Then why would you say Sephardi Jews are in majority in Israel?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Then why would you say Sephardi Jews are in majority in Israel?


I don't understand the connection rpfan.

----------


## rpfan2008

> I don't understand the connection rpfan.


The point I was trying to make -- either you are a  liar OR you know nothing about what you are talking.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Do you mean this story?
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8327188.stm
> 
> YumYum, the British are extremely antisemitic. I wouldn't trust a report from the BBC. I used to watch the news myself while I lived in Israel, then hear it totally twisted by the BBC. Really. Why do you trust people that hate you just for the blood that runs in your veins and nothing you've done?? I don't understand your naivete.
> 
> BTW, what are we going to do with the Palestinians?


I think the "Arabs" of the region are mostly from Jewish ancestry who were forced to convert sometime in the 1100's by the Turks. The estimates are as high as 85%. There are many people, geneticists, rabbis etc, who are working on this issue, going into the communities and talking to the people. Many have longstanding Jewish traditions passed down from generation to generation. Only about 1/2 of the estimated population of crypto-Jews in the region even know they are of Jewish ancestry. And only a small fraction of that estimate have the courage to come forth, for fear of being harmed by their Muslim rulers.

That may be why HKB"H does not allow them to leave, because they do, in fact, belong in the region. So, I am trusting the caring people in Israel to deal with this, with G-d's help. In the end, it will work out if the local Arabs and Jews, as it were, can be left to work their differences out. It's only government elitists that benefit from all the troubles. The little people bear the brunt of everything, on both sides.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> The point I was trying to make -- either you are a  liar OR you know nothing about what you are talking.


What do the Sephardi Jews of Israel have to do with your opinion of me?

I linked to Wikipedia. Is that such a difficult fact to swallow? Many in Israel say the the Sephardim are a majority. In any case, it's close to 50%. The Wikipedia article says around 50% come from the Arab nations surrounding Israel. 

I use the term Sephardi loosely, but it has come to mean Jews from Spain, Portugal and North Africa, and then some also include the Middle Eastern countries. Some use that term to refer only to Spanish or Portuguese Jews (Sepharad is Spain in Hebrew). Others use it to refer to all Oriental Jews...the division can refer to locations or it can be linguistic. The Hebrew pronunciation is a bit different between Ashkenazim, Oriental and Sephardi Jews. Thus when the topic is language or certain customs, the terms are more specific. Another term used is "Mizrachi" Jews.

Here's the quote again:

*Israel Demographics*

_Nearly half of all Israeli Jews are descended from Jews who immigrated from Europe, while around the same number are descended from Jews who immigrated from Arab countries, Iran, Turkey and Central Asia. Over two hundred thousand are, or are descended from, Ethiopian and Indian Jews._

The point is, around 50%, according to some a majority...of Jews in Israel come from Eretz Israel or surrounding nations. Okay, so for the sake of argument, I will bow to the "authority" of Wikipedia and back off a bit. *Approximately half of the Jews in Israel are either from or descended from Jews in the region.*

----------


## ElyaKatz

> This makes me sad 
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8327188.stm
> 
> And they wonder why these people strap bombs to themselves.


They strap bombs to themselves because they want to go to Allah's heaven by killing infidels. 

Again, from post #351:

*PA Violating Water Accords as Israel Faces Crisis*

by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu

*(IsraelNN.com)* The Water Authority rejects Amnesty International claims, to be released in a report on Tuesday, that Israelis whet their thirst at the expense of Palestinian Authority Arabs. The Water Authority countered that PA Arabs continually violate Oslo Accords by illegally drilling for water and spilling untreated sewage.

The Amnesty report is selective and incorrect, to make an understatement, said spokesmen for Water Authority chairman Uri Shore.

Despite several claims by human rights organizations that Israel has taken water away from what is now the Palestinian Authority, the amount of water available to PA Arabs since the Six-Day War in 1967 actually has gone up while Israelis have suffered a whopping 70 percent drop in their resources.

The amount of natural water, including underground aquifers, the amount of water available annually to every Israeli before 1967 was 500 cubic meters a year, the Water Authority explained. Today the figure is 149 cubic meters, while water available to PA Arabs actually has increased by 22 percent, from 87 cubic meters to 105 cubic meters a year per capita.

*Click here to continue reading*

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Ellie, but what's your excuse for the Israeli government continuing to encourage additional new settlements on Palestinian land?  Do you seriously fault Palestinians for not being happy when Israelis squat on their land and claim it as their own; in effect bullying Palestinians off of their own land.
> 
> How can you claim that the Israeli government wants peace when they continue that practice?


Well, at least you're not tiptoeing around your bias. My "excuse"? "Bullying"?? Funny. I just read about Arabs who are attacking Jews on the Temple Mount today. Are they not "bullying?" Or how about this story:

*Israeli Ambulance Driver Pelted With Stones as He Treats Arab* Or is attacking Jewish medical personnel that are treating an Arab woman having a heart attack reasonable sounding to you?? This is not an isolated incident. You're just missing the stories, probably because of the sources you choose. But to the point ---

_
Diplomatic and Legal Aspects of the Settlement Issue

Settlements are Not Illegal

   1.The settlements are not located in "occupied territory." The last binding international legal instrument which divided the territory in the region of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza was the League of Nations Mandate, which explicitly recognized the right of Jewish settlement in all territory allocated to the Jewish national home in the context of the British Mandate. These rights under the British Mandate were preserved by the successor organization to the League of Nations, the United Nations, under Article 49 of the UN Charter.

   2.The West Bank and Gaza are disputed, not occupied, with both Israel and the Palestinians exercising legitimate historical claims. There was no Palestinian sovereignty in the West Bank and Gaza Strip prior to 1967. Jews have a deep historic and emotional attachment to the land and, as their legal claims are at least equal to those of Palestinians, it is natural for Jews to build homes in communities in these areas, just as Palestinians build in theirs.

   3.The territory of the West Bank and Gaza Strip was captured by Israel in a defensive war, which is a legal means to acquire territory under international law. In fact, Israel's seizing the land in 1967 was the only legal acquisition of the territory this century: the Jordanian occupation of the West Bank from 1947 to 1967, by contrast, had been the result of an offensive war in 1948 and was never recognized by the international community, including the Arab states, with the exception of Great Britain and Pakistan. 


The Settlements are Consistent with Resolution 242

Many observers incorrectly assume that UN Security Council Resolution 242 requires a full Israeli withdrawal from the land Israel captured in the 1967 Arab-Israeli War. Some may have a hidden agenda aimed at depriving Israel of any legal rights whatsoever in the disputed areas. In either case, they use this misinterpretation to conclude that settlement activity is unlawful because it perpetuates an "illegal" Israeli occupation.

The assumption and the conclusion are deeply flawed. Resolution 242 calls for only an undefined withdrawal from a portion of the land -- and only to the extent required by "secure and recognized boundaries." Israel has already withdrawn from the majority of the land it had captured, and nearly all of the areas in which it retains communities are essential to "secure and recognized boundaries." The specific location of Israeli settlements was determined by Israel's Ministry of Defense over the last 30 years, not by the settlers themselves, and they were set up in order to strengthen Israel's presence in those few areas from which it cannot, militarily, afford to withdraw.

Settlements are Consistent with the Geneva Conventions

In three recent emergency special sessions of the UN General Assembly, Israeli settlement was cited as a violation of the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention. These international humanitarian instruments, forged in the ashes of the Holocaust to prevent future genocidal brutality and oppression, were never invoked in 50 years until the case of condominium construction in Jerusalem during 1998. Was such construction -- any settlement construction -- a violation of the Geneva Convention?

No. The relevant clause, Article 49, prohibits the "occupying power" from transferring population into the "occupied territory." Aside from the fact that the territory is not occupied, but disputed, Morris Abrams, the U.S. Ambassador to the UN in Geneva, had pointed out that the clause refers to the forcible transfer of large populations. By contrast, the settlements involve the voluntary movement of civilians. The U.S. Department of State, accordingly, does not view Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention as applicable to settlement activity in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. For that reason, the official U.S. position has been over the years that settlements are legal, even though successive administrations have criticized them on political grounds. (Only the Carter administration for a short time held that settlements were illegal; this position was overturned by the Reagan administration.)

Settlement Growth Never Violated Oslo

Although certain Palestinian negotiators demanded a settlement freeze, the peace agreement ultimately reached by Israel and the Palestinians at Oslo, along with the Interim Agreement of 1995, allow settlement growth as well as the growth -- and creation -- of Palestinian communities in the disputed territories. The Palestinians acquired planning and zoning rights in Area A, while Israel retained the same rights in Area C where the settlements were located. Indeed, their legal status was to be addressed and decided only in the final status negotiations which, unfortunately, never took place. Until this point is reached, settlement growth remains within the legal scope of the Oslo Agreements.

At the October 5, 1995, session of the Knesset at which the Interim Agreement was ratified, the late Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin proclaimed that we "committed ourselves before the Knesset, not to uproot a single settlement in the framework of the interim agreement, and not to hinder building for natural growth" (Israel Foreign Ministry, http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00te0). On the basis of this understanding of Oslo II, the Knesset voted to approve the Agreement.  

Conclusion

One may legitimately support or challenge Israeli settlements in the disputed territories, but they are not illegal, and they have neither the size, the population, nor the placement to seriously impact upon the future status of the disputed territories and their Palestinian population centers._

----------


## jfriedman

> Like lester says, you're doing all the hard work for me.


Quoted for record.  Finally one of you guys admit you're trying to make things look a certain way.

+100 for honesty.

----------


## jmdrake

> Really. And how much have you read on the subject? Did you even bother watching the video I've posted on Jewish life under Islam in the Middle East?


Have you watched every video posted by someone from StormFront?   
The link I posted was written by a Jewish historian.  I give him more deference for being objective than you.  Perhaps you believe "birth of a nation" too.




> You have a very superficial understanding of the nuances of Jewish society, and of Jewish history.


Jackass, your "nuanced understanding of Jewish history" *HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POINT BEING MADE!*  I'm not arguing with that point you little prick!  My point is that a group of Jews who were not zionists supported a boycott and a group of zionists opposed it!  You "nuances" *WHICH I ALREADY KNEW* mean absolutely nothing!  You are a moron to assume that I didn't know there was more than one type of zionism just because I'm intelligent enough to realize that it doesn't make a difference to this point!  So shut up already about that!





> No. I am saying that self-defense against the murderous policies of the British was entirely appopriate. I think maybe you would have been a Tory under British colonial rule.


Blowing up a hotel is not self defense.  If it is *then all of the bombings being done today by Hamas are self defense*!




> You didn't read the article then. The British stood by and did nothing, as was their habit back in the day.


I did jackass!  I said "doing nothing" is not the same as being behind the attacks.  If it is than Israel is guilty of "doing nothing" everytime a settler kills somebody.  




> If self-defense is terrorism, (the attacks against the British by the Irgun were against military targets, not civilians) then the American revolutionaries were also terrorists. That's the end result of your moral relativism.


A hotel is not a valid military target.  Nor is killing people decades later because you don't like what they did *not* do decades before justified.  Are you a script writer for Osama Bin Laden?




> I hold the view as presented by John Loftus and Mark Aaron re the USS Liberty. It's not the subject of this thread.


Sure it is.  It's another example of Israeli terrorism.




> So do tell me, what acts of self-defense by Israelis do you not define as terrorism?


I already told you jackass.  Go back and read.

----------


## jmdrake

> Quoted for record.  Finally one of you guys admit you're trying to make things look a certain way.
> 
> +100 for honesty.


LOL.  Yes.  He's an honest liar.

----------


## Meatwasp

Ely,
The more you protest the more I  tend to disagree  with you. You are justifying every thing the Israelis have done. No matter how heinous.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I also know for a fact that it was Israeli soldiers who blew up the Marine barracks in Lebanon.


*Nefa Foundation*

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Plaintiff, vs ELFAT EL AOUAR, defendant

CRIMINAL NO. 06-20248

HON. JOHN CORBETT O’MEARA
HON. DONALD A. SCHEER

"Prior to September 11, 2001, Hizballah had murdered more Americans that any other foreign terrorist organization. For example, the United States District Court for the District of Columbia found that Hizballah, in cooperation with the Islamic Republic of Iran through the Iranian Ministry of Information and Security (MOIS), murdered 241 American servicemen in their sleep during a suicide bombing of the U.S. Marine Corps barracks in Beirut, Lebanon on October 23, 1983. Peterson v. Islamic Republic of Iran, 264 F. Supp. 46 (D.D.C. 2003). Sheikh Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, Hizballah’s chief “spiritual leader,” reportedly issued the fatwa (religious ruling) authorizing the Marine Corps barracks bombing. E.g., Avi Jorisch,* Beacon of Hatred: Inside Hizballah’s Al-Manar Television 8 (2004).* -- emphasis Ellie Katz

On Victor Ostovsky's credibility as an author:

*What Did Mossad Know, and When?* New York Times Book review by David Wise

"...security was so incredibly lax at the Marine barracks that nothing short of a specific warning about not only the type of vehicle, but also the date and time the terrorists would attack, would have made a bit of difference. After the attack, Gen. James M. Mead, who was the Marine commander in Beirut, said that he had received dozens of warnings about white Mercedes vehicles that might be carrying bombs. ''We were told this every day,'' he said."

*The Far Side of Credibility* book review by Benny Morris

“Ostrovsky was not a senior Mossad officer, and, indeed, was barely an operational “case officer” before he was fired; most of his (brief) time in the agency was spent as a trainee. Hence, given the tight compartmentalization in the organization, he did not have and could not have knowledge of then current Mossad operations, let along operational history.”

*The 1983 Marine Barracks Bombing: Connecting the Dots* -- The event as views by the Heritage Foundation

Wikipedia on *1983 Beirut barracks bombing*

----------


## ElyaKatz

BS"D




> Ely,
> The more you protest the more I  tend to disagree  with you. You are justifying every thing the Israelis have done. No matter how heinous.


First of all, I'm not protesting. I'm debating and backing my claims with outside sources, credible sources. Big difference....

Second of all, it seems you haven't read my posts, or the thread very carefully. Some of my sources, and my posts, heavily criticize Labor Zionists, as well as British and Arab leaders. These three groups, and then later certain entities within the US government, had confluencing interests, which did not agree with the interests of the people they ostensibly were leading or "protecting" or "rescuing".

I don't divide the battle between Zionist and non-Zionist, or between Jew and gentile. My division is between corrupt elitists, usually, but not always in the government, and the average joe, whether they are Jewish or not, Zionist or not.

I suggest you read a thread more carefully before criticizing any one writer or viewpoint.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Have you watched every video posted by someone from StormFront?   
> The link I posted was written by a Jewish historian.  I give him more deference for being objective than you.  Perhaps you believe "birth of a nation" too.


I read opposing viewpoints from intelligent opponents. I might not agree with Ian Lustick, Shimon Peres, or George Soros, but at least they have an IQ higher than my philodendron.




> Jackass, your "nuanced understanding of Jewish history" *HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POINT BEING MADE!*  I'm not arguing with that point you little prick! * My point is that a group of Jews who were not zionists supported a boycott and a group of zionists opposed it!*  You "nuances" *WHICH I ALREADY KNEW* mean absolutely nothing!  You are a moron to assume that I didn't know there was more than one type of zionism just because I'm intelligent enough to realize that it doesn't make a difference to this point!  So shut up already about that!


Yeah. So what? There were those who supported the boycott and those who didn't from many groups. I don't get why this is so significant.




> Blowing up a hotel is not self defense.  If it is *then all of the bombings being done today by Hamas are self defense*!


It is when it's the Brits military headquarters. In 1979 it was proven that the Brits were warned and didn't heed the warning.




> I did jackass!  I said "doing nothing" is not the same as being behind the attacks.  If it is than Israel is guilty of "doing nothing" everytime a settler kills somebody.


As I've already stated, I didn't claim the Brits were behind the Hebron massacre. I posted an article about the Hebron massacre to illustrate the type of atmosphere the Jews of the Yishuv were living in. But there is plenty of proof that the Brits were behind many riots. This fact was admitted by some dissenting Brits at the time, who were working for the British government in the Palestine Mandate. The British armed and instigated Arab riots, and also stood by and did nothing when those riots occurred, which included rape, pillage and murder. Standing aside as crimes are being committed is to be as guilty as the one doing the act, but the Brits did more than merely stand aside in many, many cases.  

_"Kenneth Levin reproduces some of what eyewitness Lieutenant John Patterson wrote concerning the anti-Jewish terrorist violence during the al-Nebi Musa 'celebrations' of 1920. Here it is below:

"A veritable ‘pogrom’ such as we have hitherto only associated with Tsarist [Czarist] Russia,[3] took place in the Holy City of Jerusalem in April, 1920, and as this was the climax to the maladministration of the Military Authorities, I consider that the facts of the case should be made public...

"The Balfour Declaration [which gave Britain the responsibility of establishing a Jewish homeland in British Mandate ‘Palestine’]...was never allowed [by the Military Administration] to be officially published within the borders of Palestine; the Hebrew language was proscribed; there was open discrimination against the Jews; the Jewish Regiment was at all times kept in the background and treated as a pariah. This official attitude was interpreted by the [Arab] hooligan element and interested [Arab] schemers in the only possible way, viz., that the military authorities in Palestine were against the Jews and Zionism, and the conviction began to grow [within Arab circles] that any act calculated to deal a death blow to Zionist aspirations would not be unwelcome by those in authority...

"Moreover, this malign influence was sometimes strengthened by very plain speaking. The Military Governor of an important town was actually heard to declare...in the presence of British and French Officers and of Arab waiters, that in case of anti-Jewish riots in his city, he would remove the garrison and take up his position at a window, where he could watch, and laugh at, what went on!

"This amazing declaration was reported to the Acting Chief Administrator, and the Acting Chief Political Officer, but no action was taken against the Governor. Only one interpretation can be placed on such leniency.”[6]_ -- from *How did the 'Palestinian movement' emerge? The British sponsored it. Then the German Nazis, and the US. by Dr. Francisco Gil-White*

Israel is certainly not perfect. No nation is. But the record proves that Israel tries, prosecutes and jails any Israeli who can be proven to be guilty of a crime.




> IA hotel is not a valid military target.  Nor is killing people decades later because you don't like what they did *not* do decades before justified.  Are you a script writer for Osama Bin Laden?


If a hotel is being used as military headquarters, then it is a valid military target.




> I already told you jackass.  Go back and read.


That question was posed before you stated that attacking an invading Egyptian army was valid. If I left it my reply post, my apologies. I'll remove it.

*Update:*

Nope. Just checked. I was responding to your post, which I had read, _with relish._ 

Here's the chronology:
*
Post #357*




> Do you support Israel celebrating over a terrorist bombing of a hotel *that killed 92 people*?  If Israel celebrates its cowardly attack on the U.S.S. Liberty will you support that too?  There's nothing wrong with supporting Israel when they are right, but supporting outright terrorism is just silly.


*Post #360 -- Ellie Katz (I'm using my husband's handle)*




> So do tell me, what acts of self-defense by Israelis do you not define as terrorism?


*
Post #361*




> Well strafing the U.S.S. Liberty clearly wasn't self defense.  Blowing up a hotel isn't self defense.  I've got no problem with blowing up invading Egyptian tanks.


I never repeated the question.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Quoted for record.  Finally one of you guys admit you're trying to make things look a certain way.
> 
> +100 for honesty.


In quoting a member who is embarrassed by the transparent antisemitism of "Revolution Is Now", do not misunderstand my purpose. I think the idiotic theories on "Jewish supremacy" are hysterical that's all. And it seems those who ascribe to those theories can barely keep their veneer intact. When someone lets down their guard and admits they actually believe lunatic theories that RIN is now promoting, such as a "kosher tax", he definitely makes my job of *proving the superiority of my claims* much easier.

Yes. I am out to prove that my perspective is the truth, or at least, much closer to the truth than any of the bozos who think there's a "kosher tax" -- yada yada yada. Guilty of aiming to win the debate with incontrovertible facts, and proud of it.

In the debate on the Arab-Israeli conflict, and the question of which narrative to believe, the Arab or the Jewish, perfect goodness on one side, and perfect evil on the other not required in order to prove one side of the battle  is the side of good, and the other the side of evil. 

While recognizing the imperfection in all men, especially in war, I do not ascribe to moral relativism.

----------


## ElyaKatz

BS"D

*Quote from Ellie Katz:*




> I hold the view as presented by John Loftus and Mark Aaron re the USS Liberty. It's not the subject of this thread.






> Sure it is. It's another example of Israeli terrorism.


The subject of the thread is in the title. The original topic of this thread is not the USS Liberty or "Israeli terrorism". Start your own thread on those topics if you want to discuss them. I already accommodated you enough by linking the John Loftus, Mark Aarons research.

It seems any thread on this site which presents Israel in a positive light in any way, or which dares criticize the Arab narrative devolves into an Israel bashing fest...by a small number of very active anti-Zionist and/or pro-pali members. I aslo participated in the hijacking of this thread, so I'm not complaining. Having said that, I participate in off-topic posts as a matter of choice, and reserve the right to ignore any topic which isn't on-point. I stated my position on off-topic posts in my first post, which opened the thread.
__________________

----------


## ElyaKatz

BS"D

*Ellie Katz Post #360:* 



> You didn't read the article then. The British stood by and did nothing, as was their habit back in the day.


*Post #378:*



> I did jackass!


Really? All 31 pages...already??




> I said "doing nothing" is not the same as being behind the attacks.


So, if someone arranges for a hit, and they are going to be present when the hitman walks in the door, the hitman does the dirty deed, and the person who arranges for the hitman does nothing, then that is NOT the same thing as being behind the attack,eh? That's pretty sweet the for husband who wants to bump off his 50 year old, pudgy, graying wife. The law can't get him, because he didn't actually "do anything". Interesting principles of jurisprudence there jmdrake. Better not share those views with the wifey...er, if she's still among us, that is.

According to the 31 page document I linked in reply to your challenges (about 20 or so pages of footnotes that are just as interesting) that is pretty much what the British Mandate authorities did while they were in charge of maintaining order and legally bound to "facilitate close Jewish settlement" in the Palestine Mandate. Some of the British had the integrity to protest, which is why we have Lieutenant John Patterson's testimony.

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

----------


## ElyaKatz

> The OT is a history book that has no bearing on Christianity other than a desire to understand the law before Jesus Christ replaced it.
> 
> I am not butting in at all.  Through Christ, Christians are rightful heirs.  Christians should immigrate in large numbers to the region to claim their rightful inheritance.


Where does JC say he "replaced the law" LFOD??

_"Think not that I am come to destroy the Law [see What Law Was "Nailed To The Cross"?], or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least Commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do [see The Ten Commandments and the Fact Finder below] and teach them, the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of heaven."

"For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees [see Hypocrites, also I Did It My Way...], ye shall in no case enter into the Kingdom of heaven. (5:13-20 KJV)

"And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the Law to fail." (Luke 16:17 KJV)_

And where in the NT does it say that Christians have a right to live in Eretz Israel??

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Don't kid yourself.  The minority on this forum is the pro-zionist propaganda delegate.  And that poster does seem to be very active and very biased in their thinking.
> 
> You aren't going to sell Israel's history of ethnic cleansing to this crowd.  There are no Ron Paul supporters who support a political ideology of ethnic cleansing.  If they do, they are fake Ron Paul supporters because ethnic cleansing is not in the Ron Paul platform.


YouTube - Goldstone Gaza Report: Col. Richard Kemp Testifies at U.N. Emergency Session
By your definition of "ethnic cleansing", then no nation can defend themselves in war against another nation unless that nation which has made aggressive war against the defending nation is multi-ethnic. And then there's the troubling lack of evidence of any "ethnic cleansing" against the Arab citizens in Israel...let's see, a Supreme Court Justice, several Knesseth members, complete freedom of movement and worship, total control over the Temple Mount...

Then there's the Muslim nations. Again, I'm confused by your lack of concern over the ethnic cleansing that goes on there...and in Darfur. The fact that non-Muslims can't own a business in Riyad, or Jeddah, or even bring a Christian or Hebrew bible into Saudi Arabia, and that Jews can't even travel in Saudia Arabia (unless they're in the military) is not ethnic cleansing?? And it's not ethnic or religious cleansing to kill a Muslim who converts to Christianity in Muslim nations? What the Coptic Christians are enduring in Egypt is not ethnic cleansing? People who excuse the sort of cruelty that women, children and non-Muslims must endure in Muslim countries, and in the PA are fake Ron Paul supporters then.

Again, contrast that to Israel, where 20% of the population are Arabs, where there is an Arab Supreme Court Justice, and Arab Knesseth members. Some ethnic cleansing that is....

The moderators and Admin claim those who hold your views are in the minority here. I could care less if anyone here agrees with me. I'm going to say my piece. I will argue against lies and distortions. I'm not selling anything. I just despise lies and liars. Hamas are determined to destroy Israel, and as a matter or proven policy they use civilians, women and children, as human shields. As a matter of policy, they use schools, hospitals and mosques as military bases. As a matter of policy, they lie. Some Americans are naive enough to swallow their lies.

YouTube - UK Colonel Richard Kemp on IDF's actions in Gaza

----------


## revolutionisnow

> In quoting a member who is embarrassed by the transparent antisemitism of "Revolution Is Now", do not misunderstand my purpose. I think the idiotic theories on "Jewish supremacy" are hysterical that's all. And it seems those who ascribe to those theories can barely keep their veneer intact. When someone lets down their guard and admits they actually believe lunatic theories that RIN is now promoting, such as a "kosher tax", he definitely makes my job of *proving the superiority of my claims* much easier.
> 
> Yes. I am out to prove that my perspective is the truth, or at least, much closer to the truth than any of the bozos who think there's a "kosher tax" -- yada yada yada. Guilty of aiming to win the debate with incontrovertible facts, and proud of it.
> 
> In the debate on the Arab-Israeli conflict, and the question of which narrative to believe, the Arab or the Jewish, perfect goodness on one side, and perfect evil on the other not required in order to prove one side of the battle  is the side of good, and the other the side of evil. 
> 
> While recognizing the imperfection in all men, especially in war, I do not ascribe to moral relativism.


How can you say there is no kosher tax, when I can clearly look on the packages on my food and see that there is. That is a fact. And I can provide you with both quotes from the Talmud and from various Jewish leaders that prove that a supremacist ideology exists. 

YouTube - Kosher Tax

YouTube - Israeli Soldier: "They are animals, we are humans!"

----------


## YumYum

> *Nefa Foundation*
> 
> UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Plaintiff, vs ELFAT EL AOUAR, defendant
> 
> CRIMINAL NO. 06-20248
> 
> HON. JOHN CORBETT OMEARA
> HON. DONALD A. SCHEER
> 
> ...


This report is not true. My dad personally met the man in the IDF whose squad blew up the barracks. Do you really think Israel would own up to this? After they blew up the barracks, the U.S. troops left Lebanon: Mission acomplished!

----------


## ElyaKatz

> How can you say there is no kosher tax, when I can clearly look on the packages on my food and see that there is. That is a fact.


Kosher certifications on some processed foods, and in a few locations, many processed foods are a fact. The added cost of those kosher certifications are a fact. But that does not make it a tax. A tax is not voluntary. No one forces any company to undergo supervision in order to obtain kosher certification. It's 100% voluntary. Companies choose to undergo kosher certification in order to increase their market base. On the part of the company, it's a business decision based on profit motives, pure and simple. 

Not only Jews prefer kosher certification. Many people with dietary restrictions and food allergies prefer kosher certified foods, such as people with celiac disease, dairy intolerance or vegans. 

No one forces you to buy a product that is kosher certified. That is also 100% voluntary. There are many products I can't buy because they are not kosher certified...some things I would love to buy, but since I keep a strictly kosher home, also 100% my choice, those products are off limits to me.

A tax, by contrast, is not voluntary. It is imposed across a given population, by the government, either local, state or federal, and if you don't pay, just watch and see what happens.




> And I can provide you with both quotes from the Talmud and from various Jewish leaders that prove that a supremacist ideology exists.


Your  " Talmudic quotes" are pure fiction. I've looked into all that years ago, satisfied myself that it's all hogwash. Quotes put forth are either totally taken out of context, or non-existent. Neo-Nazi and White supremacist sites specialize in those types of lies.

The following audio will educate you on how the Talmud is structured, and help you understand how easily the text is abused by those with nefarious purposes, if you dare open your mind.

*Does the Talmud Condone Murder, Pedophilia, and Idolatry?* I can't link it directly. You'll have to scroll down on the page and find the title. It's the second to the last lecture.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> This report is not true. My dad personally met the man in the IDF whose squad blew up the barracks. Do you really think Israel would own up to this? After they blew up the barracks, the U.S. troops left Lebanon: Mission acomplished!


Name him.

----------


## revolutionisnow

So which is Daat Emet - a nazi or white supremacist web site?
http://www.daatemet.org.il/articles/...article_id=119

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Why don't you take a few polls and ask the following questions.  Feel free to request moderator participation in your polls.  Maybe the moderators will grace this thread with responses to these questions to support your ridiculous assertion.


I was quoting the mods, way back when I first started posting. If you disagree with their assertions, then you ask. As for the poll, you do it if you want. _I don't care._

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

nt

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Furthermore I doubt I was referenced in this alleged quote since you already had a couple hundred posts before I ever posted in a thread you created.  I have only posted in four of the twenty three threads you have created.


Where did I mention you being referenced in any quote re the issue of what percentage of members here have an antizionist agenda? I think what you are doing is challenging my claim that only a small number of members are strongly antizionist here, and my claim that a moderator also made a statement to that effect? Am I understanding you??




> If that is the case, you are taking an alleged quote, you provide no evidence of, out of context.  How can anyone agree, disagree, or come to any conclusion on the matter when you present no evidence of a moderator quote....  
> 
> Making claims involving the mods with no evidence invites criticism....





> Why don't you take a few polls and ask the following questions.  Feel free to request moderator participation in your polls.  *Maybe the moderators will grace this thread with responses to these questions to support your ridiculous assertion.*


*http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=175625&page=9*




> Right -- Over 22,000 members on this board and you can find about....5 people or about 0.0002% to extrapolate to the entire Ron Paul movement.  Do you see why I don't extrapolate Chaim Ben Pesach's views to Jews?  You're right, they're marginalized by jewish people because they're crazy, although I do see him on Queens Public Television, and no calls by anyone to silence him.  Hey guess what -- I find what he says to be hateful and nasty, but I will defend his right to say it.
> 
> I refuse to do it anymore because we've done it so many times, but you can dig up all sorts of posts of board members or moderators castigating those who use collectivist rhetoric to group people whether its jews, christians, gays or atheists.
> 
> One of the crappier parts of freedom is you have to put up with listening to crap you disagree with.  On the other hand, I also have the option of clicking a button and not reading what I dislike reading.


He was criticizing my earlier posts on the threads because he thought I was saying the entire site is filled with antisemites. Since he said I came across that way, I took responsibility for my words and worked more diligently at qualifying my statements, so folks know I'm assuming the best of the majority of members of this forum.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> So which is Daat Emet - a nazi or white supremacist web site?
> http://www.daatemet.org.il/articles/...article_id=119


I don't know them. Many people write many things. I am unsure of the agenda is of this site. It is mentioned here:

*Response to Daat Emet publications*

R' Stein's, shlita, response to daat emet challenge re Jewish ethics is here:

*Response to Daat Emet Issue Cheshvan 5762-Tamuz 5762*

I just skimmed the site, but when visiting the Sanhedrin.org site, it seems daat emet has an anti-religious agenda, trying to discredit it. In those cases, often the text of the Oral Law is abused. One must realize that the Oral Law is not only a written document. What one sees when opening a volume of the Mishna/Gemara are "liner notes". The unwritten portion of the Oral Law is taught orally from Talmud master to student. That is why, even though part of the Talmud is written down, it is still called the Oral Law. Thus, you will only know the context if you study under teacher.

I would tend to trust the scholars and sages of the nascent Sandhedrin much more than the daat emet site. They are balanced, and kind. 

A more relevant discussion would be what is current Israeli law? There is no death penalty, with exceptions such as for Nazi war criminals on the level of Adolf Eichmann, who received a very fair trial. He was able to pick his own attorney, and his defense was paid for by the Israeli government.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Well, at least you're not tiptoeing around your bias. My "excuse"? "Bullying"?? Funny. I just read about Arabs who are attacking Jews on the Temple Mount today. Are they not "bullying?"


I asked you a legitimate question, Ellie.  The fact that you try to belittle my question is very telling.




> You're just missing the stories, probably because of the sources you choose. But to the point ---


My, you're rude.

I don't go out of my way to read about any of it.  Most of what I do read is written by American press.  if you don't like those sources, Ellie --- TOUGH!  

But, you know what, Ellie, there is one easy way to stop most of the issues some Americans have with Israel's government.  Get them to stop unduly influencing my government and media; stop asking for and expecting money from us to carry out their warmongering; and stop expecting us to fight THEIR wars.  Besides that, I have no issue with Israel.  However, if Israel's government keeps doing the above, they are inviting Americans to criticize their actions.  You can't have it both ways, Ellie.  It just isn't going to happen.

Have a nice evening, Ellie.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I asked you a legitimate question, Ellie.  The fact that you try to belittle my question is very telling.
> 
> My, you're rude.


I think the way you posed your question was rude. Most of the time I ignore that sort of stuff. I didn't this time.




> I don't go out of my way to read about any of it.  Most of what I do read is written by American press.  if you don't like those sources, Ellie --- TOUGH!


So, maybe you could post the sources that state that Israel is bullying and stealing from the Arabs so we can all examine why you think your characterization of the situation is accurate? 




> But, you know what, Ellie, there is one easy way to stop most of the issues some Americans have with Israel's government.  Get them to stop unduly influencing my government and media; stop asking for and expecting money from us to carry out their warmongering; and stop expecting us to fight THEIR wars.  Besides that, I have no issue with Israel.


*Reply to Mearsheimer & Walt's "The Israel Lobby"*

*What is AIPAC for?*




> Have a nice evening, Ellie.


I ignore most of the rudeness sent my way. Some of it is extreme. Once in awhile it ticks me off. I have been a moderator. A moderator carries a certain authority on a site, and as such, a good moderator is supposed to be _moderate_ in their questioning and responses. When I moderated, if I posed my questions the way you posed yours to me in that particular post, I would have been called on it by Admin and asked to rephrase. I called you on your own lack of "moderation".

I won't do it again.

Did you read the sources I linked in my response?

----------


## LibertyEagle

Yes, I read them.  And I apologize if you thought my question to you was worded rudely.  I know no other way to say it.  How do you depict when you see pictures of Israeli tanks and bulldozers knocking down a Palestinian's home?  

You know, Ellie, once upon a time when I heard of such things, I would turn my head and say to myself, "they are God's chosen people".  I did that, until I could do it no longer.   

Amy was right.  It's time for Israel to stand on her own two feet.  Get your hands out of America's pocket and your influence out of our government.  I wish Israel well, but we are two separate countries.

----------


## Bman

> Get your hands out of America's pocket and your influence out of our government.


We also need to elect people who will tell foreign countries that we don't give handouts and stay out of regional conflicts that do not directly affect U.S. borders.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Yes, I read them.  And I apologize if you thought my question to you was worded rudely.  I know no other way to say it.  How do you depict when you see pictures of Israeli tanks and bulldozers knocking down a Palestinian's home?


The entire nation is at war. Ugly things happen. There were Jewish homes that were bulldozed too, all in the interest of peace, the estimate is between 8,000 and 10,000 Jews, tossed out of their homes, which were legally purchased, not expropriated from the Arabs. Most not compensated, 80% are still unemployed, 4 years later. And what did Israel get in return for that gesture? 8 years of Qassam rockets on southern Israel -- *10,000. 
*



> You know, Ellie, once upon a time when I heard of such things, I would turn my head and say to myself, "they are God's chosen people".  I did that, until I could do it no longer.


G-d's chosen people are held to a higher standard because of that. If the Jews of Israel do something evil, then they should and are held accountable. But being at war, defending one's nation against an avowed enemy who is determined to destroy every last Jew in the region, and stating that determination on a daily basis, is not evil. 

The news you watch is very, very biased against Israel. I know. I lived there for years, and heard what my family was seeing on the news in America, and then saw what was happening before my very eyes in Israel.




> Amy was right.  It's time for Israel to stand on her own two feet.  Get your hands out of America's pocket and your influence out of our government.


I never disagreed with the need for a separation between Israel and America. I did think Amy was r_eally, really, really rude_ (yeah, she earned 3 modifiers) in how she presented her opinions to me. Then there are members here who honestly believe there is this big Jewish conspiracy to take over the world, via their crackpot "kosher tax" boloney yada yada yada ad nauseum, and others who state that we are doomed to wander the earth hated, because we rejected JC. Straight out of medieval Catholicism. 

You know, it's funny to me most of the time. I have been known to suddenly snort hot chocolate all over my keyboard or fall off my chair in fits of hysterical laughter when I read that sort of junk. The credulity of some people is mind-boggling. But sometimes, it's just tedious and tiresome to try and discuss things rationally with such people. Some people should be sued by the authors of the *Protocols of the Elders of Zion* for plaigarism or "intellectual" (??) theft, except that was a plaigarism from another book, actually quite a good one that had nothing to do with Jews. So, guess not.

I guess my patience wears thin sometimes. I am committed to the principle of not denigrating even those sort of people (However, I will tear such lies to shreds whenever I have the time) but I have not done so well in the last week. My apologies to you as well.

I am wondering, why are you now telling me to get my hands out of America's pocket and my influence out America's government? I'm not Israel. I'm an American Jew who once lived in Israel. My life there and my studies of the history of the region lend me some small amount of competence in discussing the subject, plus I'm a naturally opinionated person. But I'm not Israel.




> I wish Israel well, but we are two separate countries.


I'm glad you wish Israel well. 

If you truly believe what you have stated in these two posts, may I respectfully suggest that you read some news from an avowed pro-Israel site? You see, there are no truly objective news sources. Everyone is impassioned, and so, you will only learn the truth by reading the biases from both sides. Warning, there are some crazies on both sides. I wouldn't bother with them. Just read from sources that are trying to be reasonable, but have their bias, and admit it. I don't think a bias necessarily means the person holding that bias is dishonest, as long as they are straight up about it.

One example of the anti-Israel bias you will find in the American press, and even more extremely in the European press: News reports in America suggest that the current unrest on the Temple Mount was provoked by Israel. My sources say the opposite.

*The factor behind the Temple Mount riots*

Another example (I could wear you out with pages of them): There is precious little reporting on the daily rock attacks (and these are heavy, sharp rocks that can and do kill) and daily sniper attacks by Arabs on Israel's roads. Bullet proof glass is almost required on most Israeli cars. Many buses have to be armored. Everyone in Israel must go through checkpoints in certain locations, not only Arabs. In every single store, everyone's bags and purses must be checked for weapons. If someone is carrying a gun, they have to show their license permitting them to own and carry the gun, and their identification. I know because my husband and I have had to endure it all, right along with the Arabs. It's a nuisance, but it's really much less invasive than what most Americans have to put up with at an airport. The news reports will say only Arabs must go through all this rigamarole. It's not true.

What Israelis have to endure daily just to go about their routines is something Americans would not put up with for long. On top of that foreigners are always coming into Israel and stirring up trouble, then leaving the Arabs and Jews in the region to pick up the pieces.

How would you like it if illegal squatters who did not pay you any rent, fought you for 17 years, and costed you hundreds of thousands of dollars, and deprived you of the use of your land? You think it's Jews doing that to Arabs?? Read this:

*Jerusalem: Arabs Stone Jews Serving Eviction Papers*

If the tables were turned, how do you think it would be reported in the American news media? And have you read or heard of this story from Mr. Herskowitz's perspective it in the American MSM?? Read how these folks treated this man after he won his case, finally. And then put yourself in his shoes. This is one case of hundreds that Israeli Jews suffer with...for hundreds of years. It's standard Islamic practice against "infidels". The Arabs in the news item I've linked are behaving the way they are because their religion teaches them that Jews and other "infidels" have no legal standing, and "infidel" courts carry no weight in Muslim eyes.

The other thing to consider are the origins of the various critiques of Israeli actions. For instance, there were initiatives against IDF commanders in operation Cast Lead. It's recently been reported that a lawyer in Britain, Daniel Machover, is an extreme Marxist. His father, Moshe Machover was a founding member of a political party that was later caught spying on Israel for Syria...the group was, again a group of extremist Marxists. Marxists in Israel, the ones on the hard left, not the softer socialists, were and are associated with a hatred of the Jewish character of Israel, and with the desire to destroy Israel as a nation.

Here are a couple of my sources for this:

*A British Jew Committed to Prosecuting Israeli Leaders*

*Stalin’s anti-Semitism and hatred of Israel lives on as strong as ever at the University of London: Professor Moshe Machover* by Lee Kaplan

Kaplan's editorial piece is well cited with solid sources to back his claims.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> We also need to elect people who will tell foreign countries that we don't give handouts and stay out of regional conflicts that do not directly affect U.S. borders.


Yes I agree. And we need to protect our borders.

----------


## tonesforjonesbones

The Israelites were chosen by God to hold the Word.  Now everyone are GODS CHOSEN PEOPLE through the blood of Jesus Christ who died for the sins of the world.  We are saved by Grace and not Works.  

When the jews crucified and rejected Jesus the Messiah,  God turned to the gentile.  The Christians became Israel...(we were adopted and grafted in) but some of the branches were cut off from the root..the root being the jews,  but branches were cut off (that would be the jews who rejected Jesus).  Jews can be grafted back in, and yes, but the jews must come back the same way everyone else does..through Jesus Christ.  God promised land to the jews...but not until the Messiah comes back.  Your facts are right but your timing is wrong.  

The modern state of Israel is not the promise.  It was a colonization of UK and USA.  They didn't only send jewish immigrants to Israel but also to Brazil, South Africa, Austrailia, Canada and other parts of Europe.  If the migration of the jews to the modern state of Israel is fulfilment of prophecy,  why is  it so troubled?  The Bible clearly says 'lion will lay down with lamb" and there will be peace among people.  When men try to control GOD ...well you see the results..total chaos.  TONES

----------


## ElyaKatz

> The Israelites were chosen by God to hold the Word.  Now everyone are GODS CHOSEN PEOPLE through the blood of Jesus Christ who died for the sins of the world.  We are saved by Grace and not Works.


Please copy and paste the verses in the Hebrew Bible, Old Testament being serviceable in this case, but I will be comparing it to my own Bible, which proves your claims.




> When the jews crucified and rejected Jesus the Messiah,


According to the NT, the Romans did the crucifying...so at least quote your own book accurately...




> God turned to the gentile.  The Christians became Israel...(we were adopted and grafted in) but some of the branches were cut off from the root..the root being the jews,  but branches were cut off (that would be the jews who rejected Jesus).  Jews can be grafted back in, and yes, but the jews must come back the same way everyone else does..through Jesus Christ.  God promised land to the jews...but not until the Messiah comes back.  Your facts are right but your timing is wrong.


Same request. Please copy and paste either the Hebrew Bible or Old Testament verses to support these claims.




> The modern state of Israel is not the promise.


Second, while I recognize the right of the Jews in Israel to not only live there, but to defend themselves, I never said the modern State of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy. At the same time, I don't think G-d was blindsided by the large scale return of Jews to Israel. 




> It was a colonization of UK and USA.  They didn't only send jewish immigrants to Israel but also to Brazil, South Africa, Austrailia, Canada and other parts of Europe.


I agree that the UK and USA had their own purposes in supporting the Jewish return to Eretz Israel, and some Labor Zionist leaders were agreeable to be the lackeys of these purposes, the picture is much more complicated than this. There were several agendas at work concurrently. I encourage you to read one historian who has dug deeply, and looked at several angles to get a clear picture of what was going on. He's a respectable historian, started out in sympathy with the Arabs in this conflict, and has a wide range of sources to back his claims. He's also not exclusively interested in the Arab-Israeli conflict, but in ethnic conflicts in general. -- *Historical & Investigative Research*

*Re the question of the identity of the messiah and how to determine if the messianic age has arrived:*

The Old Testament, as translated by Christian theologians is not completely reliable. And if one compares the quotations within the NT to what is actually written in the Hebrew Bible, the Tanach, there will be many errors. No offense intended. It's just the truth. For an excellent study of this, I suggest R' Tovia Singer's book, which might be available for sale now, *Let's Get Biblical*. 

But even with that put aside, Christian interpretations of the Tanach are often allegorical when the text doesn't support an allegorical interpretation. I will cite Jeremiah 31:34-37. However, you will read it allegorically, and place Christians in the position of Israel. This is known as "replacement theology" and one source of Christian antisemitism. A careful and studied understanding of the book of Jeremiah doesn't support an allegorical interpretation of the following verses.
_
"Thus said Hashem, Who gives the sun as a light by day and the laws of the moon and the stars as a light by night: Who agitates the sea so that waves roar; HaShem, Master of Legions is His Name: If these laws cold be removed from before Me -- the word of HaShem -- so could the seed of Israel cease from being a people before Me forever. Thus said HaSem: If the heavens above cold be measured or the foundation of the earth plumbed below, so too would I reject the entire seed of Isael because of everything they did ---- the world of HaShem."
_




> If the migration of the jews to the modern state of Israel is fulfilment of prophecy,  why is  it so troubled?  The Bible clearly says 'lion will lay down with lamb" and there will be peace among people.  When men try to control GOD ...well you see the results..total chaos.  TONES


The troubles in Israel are caused by foreign interference in the region. There were troubles after the return from Babylon as well. The Second Temple was not built in a day, and that's because foreigners were interfering. Jews have always, throughout history attempted to return to Eretz Israel, but were stopped by murderous edicts, whether they did so in groups or individually. It just so happens, there is now Jewish political power, which includes the power to control immigration, a relatively new state of affairs.

When the messiah arrives on the scene, it will be no big mystery. The following conditions will have been met, again, quoting from Jeremiah 31:32-33:

_"For this is the covenant that I shall seal with the House of Israel after those days -- the world of HaShem -- I will place my Torah within them and I will write it onto their heart, I will be a G-d for them and they will be a people for Me. They will no longer teach -- each man his fellow, each man his brother -- saying, "Know HaShem!" For all of them will know Me, from their smallest to their greatest -- the word of HaShem --when I will forgive their iniquity and will no longer recall their sin."_

That's the new covenant. Where does it say, in the Tanach, that we will be rejected and replaced by another people based on our failure to recognize a given man as Messiah ben David?? There is no such requirement. The requirement put on us is obedience to HaShem's Torah. That is why we lost favor -- temporarily -- and it what is bringing us back to the Land, and to an intimate relationship with HaShem once again. We were separated, never divorced, and HaShem never married another people.

YouTube - Head of Jews For Jesus Debates Tovia Singer

----------


## jmdrake

YouTube - Ahmadinejad Greeted by Anti-Zionist Jews in New York

----------


## ElyaKatz

> YouTube - Ahmadinejad Greeted by Anti-Zionist Jews in New York


Your point? 

My conclusion: Two Jews, three opinions. Did you hear the joke about two Jews stranded on a deserted island? They built 3 synagogues. One for each and a third that neither would step foot in.

I'll own that stereotype.

----------


## Bman

I got a joke.

There's a Preist and a Rabbi standing next to each other discussing their faith, When a young boy goes walking by them.  The Preist turns to the Rabbi and says "Hey lets f*&k him".  The Rabbi responds "F*&k him out of what he's just a kid".

The beauty of stereotypes.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I got a joke.
> 
> There's a Preist and a Rabbi standing next to each other discussing their faith, When a young boy goes walking by them.  The Preist turns to the Rabbi and says "Hey lets f*&k him".  The Rabbi responds "F*&k him out of what he's just a kid".
> 
> The beauty of stereotypes.


You know, Bman, I really thought better of you until now. I was looking forward to your post and to your joke. _Until I read it_.

Beauty only exists in fair-minded words, which only come from the minds of kindly people. Imposing grotesque, vulgar stereotypes on others only reveals the small-mindedness of the conveyor. My joke was lighthearted and friendly. I don't take kindly to your "joke" at all. It's degrading to both Catholics and Jews.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> I got a joke.
> 
> There's a Preist and a Rabbi standing next to each other discussing their faith, When a young boy goes walking by them.  The Preist turns to the Rabbi and says "Hey lets f*&k him".  The Rabbi responds "F*&k him out of what he's just a kid".
> 
> The beauty of stereotypes.


Was this really necessary?  Do you think Ron Paul would be proud?

----------


## Danke

> I got a joke.
> 
> There's a Preist and a Rabbi standing next to each other discussing their faith, When a young boy goes walking by them.  The Preist turns to the Rabbi and says "Hey lets f*&k him".  The Rabbi responds "F*&k him out of what he's just a kid".
> 
> The beauty of stereotypes.

----------


## jmdrake

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

----------


## jmdrake

> Your point? 
> 
> My conclusion: Two Jews, three opinions. Did you hear the joke about two Jews stranded on a deserted island? They built 3 synagogues. One for each and a third that neither would step foot in.
> 
> I'll own that stereotype.


Ely, it's clear that you are not interested in intellectually honest discussion.  So I'll just post facts from this point on and leave you to argue with yourself.

----------


## jmdrake

http://web.israelinsider.com/Views/3998.htm
_On August 14, at 9 PM, Israel's Channel Ten television screened a documentary film which exposes the ugliest secret of Israel's Labor party founders: the deliberate mass radiation poisoning of nearly all Sephardi youths of a generation. 

"The Ringworm Children" (translated in Hebrew as "100,000 Rays"), directed by David Belhassen and Asher Hemias, recently won the prize for "best documentary" at the Haifa International film festival, and in the past year has made the rounds of Jewish and Israeli film festivals around the world. But it had yet to come to Israeli television screens. The subject is the mass irradiation of hundreds of thousands of young Israeli immigrants from Middle Eastern countries -- Sephardim, as they are called today. The story goes like this: 

In 1951, the director general of the Israeli Health Ministry, Dr. Chaim Sheba, flew to America and returned with seven x-ray machines, supplied to him by the American army. 

They were to be used in a mass atomic experiment with an entire generation of Sephardi youths to be used as guinea pigs. Every Sephardi child was to be given 35,000 times the maximum dose of x-rays through his head. For doing so, the American government paid the Israeli government 300 million Israeli liras a year. The entire Health budget was 60 million liras. The money paid by the Americans is equivalent to billions of dollars today. 

To fool the parents of the victims, the children were taken away on "school trips" and their parents were later told the x-rays were a treatment for the scourge of scalpal ringworm. 6,000 of the children died shortly after their doses were given, while many of the rest developed cancers that killed thousands over time and are still killing them now. While living, the victims suffered from disorders such as epilepsy, amnesia, Alzheimer's disease, chronic headaches and psychosis. 

That is the subject of the documentary in cold terms. It is another matter to see the victims on the screen. 

To watch the Moroccan lady describe what getting 35,000 times the dose of allowable x-rays in her head feels like. "I screamed make the headache go away. Make the headache go away. Make the headache go away. But it never went away." 

To watch the bearded man walk hunched down the street. "I'm in my fifties and everyone thinks I'm in my seventies. I have to stoop when I walk so I won't fall over. They took my youth away with those x-rays." 

To watch the old lady who administered the doses to thousands of children: "They brought them in lines. First their heads were shaved and smeared in burning gel. Then a ball was put between their legs and the children were ordered not to drop it, so they wouldn't move. The children weren't protected over the rest of their bodies. There were no lead vests for them. I was told I was doing good by helping to remove ringworm. If I knew what dangers the children were facing, I would never have cooperated. Never!" 

Because the whole body was exposed to the rays, the genetic makeup of the children was often altered, affecting the next generation. We watch the woman with the distorted face explain, "All three of my children have the same cancers my family suffered. Are you going to tell me that's a coincidence?" 

The majority of the victims were Moroccan because they were the most numerous of the Sephardi immigrants. The generation that was poisoned became the country's perpetual poor and criminal class. It didn't make sense. The Moroccans who fled to France became prosperous and highly educated. The common explanation was that France got the rich, thus smart ones. The real explanation is that every French Moroccan child didn't have his brain cells fried with gamma rays. 

The film made it perfectly plain that this operation was no accident. The dangers of x-rays had been known for over forty years. We read the official guidelines for x-ray treatment in 1952. The maximum dose to be given a child in Israel was .5 rad. There was no mistake made. The children were deliberately poisoned. 

David Deri makes the point that only Sephardi children received the x-rays: "I was in class and the men came to take us on a tour. They asked our names. The Ashkenazi children were told to return to their seats. The dark children were put on the bus." 

The film presents a historian who first gives a potted history of the eugenics movement. In a later sound bite, he declares that the ringworm operation was a eugenics program aimed at weeding out the perceived weak strains of society. The Moroccan lady is back on the screen. "It was a Holocaust, a Sephardi Holocaust. And what I want to know is why no one stood up to stop it." 

David Deri, on film and then as a panel member, relates the frustration he encountered when trying to find his childhood medical records. "All I wanted to know was what they did to me. I wanted to know who authorized it. I wanted to trace the chain of command. But the Health Ministry told me my records were missing." Boaz Lev, the Health Ministry's spokesman chimes in: "Almost all the records were burned in a fire." 

We are told that a US law in the late '40s put a stop to the human radiation experiments conducted on prisoners, the mentally feeble and the like. The American atomic program needed a new source of human lab rats and the Israeli government supplied it. Here was the government cabinet at the time of the ringworm atrocities: 

Prime Minister - David Ben Gurion; Finance Minister - Eliezer Kaplan; Settlement Minister - Levi Eshkol; Foreign Minister - Moshe Sharrett; Health Minister - Yosef Burg; 
Labor Minister - Golda Meir; Police Minister - Amos Ben Gurion. 

The highest ranking non-cabinet post belonged to the Director General of the Defence Ministry, Shimon Peres. 

That a program involving the equivalent of billions of dollars of American government funds should be unknown to the Prime Minister of cash-strapped Israel is ridiculous. Ben Gurion had to have been in on the horrors and undoubtedly chose his son to be Police Minister in case anyone interfered with them. 

Finance Minister Eliezer Kaplan was rewarded for eternity with a hospital named after him near Rehovot. But he's not alone in this honor. Chaim Sheba, who ran Ringworm Incorporated, had a whole medical complex named after him. Needless to say, if there is an ounce of decency in the local medical profession, those hospital names will have to change. 

After the film ended, there was a panel discussion which included a Moroccan singer, David Edri, head of the Compensation Committee for Ringworm X-Ray Victims, and Boaz Lev, a spokesman for the Ministry Of Health. 

TV host Dan Margalit tried to put a better face on what he'd witnessed. He explained meekly that "the state was poor. It was a matter of day to day survival." Then he stopped. He knew there was no excusing the atrocities which the Sephardi children endured. 

But it was the Moroccan singer who summed up the experience best. "It's going to hurt, but the truth has to be told. If not, the wounds will never heal." 

There is one person alive who knows the truth: Shimon Peres. The only way to get to the truth and start the healing is to investigate him for his role in the mass poisoning of over 100,000 Sephardi children and youth. 

But here is why that won't happen. The film was aired at the same time as the highest-rated TV show of the year, the finale of Israel's talent-hunt show: "A Star Is Born." The next day, the newly-born star's photo took up half the front pages. There was not a word about "The Ringworm Children" in any paper, nor on the Internet. Until now._

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Ely, it's clear that you are not interested in intellectually honest discussion.  So I'll just post facts from this point on and leave you to argue with yourself.


Israel Insider is a pro-Israel site. Israelis don't hide from these troubles, and this story is nothing new, although new details come out from time to time. When I lived in Israel, the Jerusalem Post had pages and pages devoted to this scandal. That was years ago. Singer Ofra Haza, the famous Yemenite singer was deeply involved in exposing this garbage. Israel has problems, very serious problems. I have never denied that. 

You have not yet dealt with my facts. Your responses to my claims, which are backed by impeccable outside sources, not merely my own opinion, is to insult me personally, and write everything in bold with loads of exclamation points...the internet version of yelling. Now, I understand if you've had a hard day, but I'd appreciate it if you would not take out your troubles on me, simply because you and I don't see eye to eye on some political issues. It muddies the waters. 

Okay. I admit it. Your online method of discourse hasn't bothered me. It's been pretty entertaining actually. It weakens your credibility though. You do realize that don't you?

I have made note of the next post after this one. I'm not going to respond in any detail because the point of this thread is not whether one can justify everything the Israeli government has ever done. Not everything the government of Israel has done can be defended. I have made that abundantly clear in earlier posts, and in some posts directly responding to yours. I have no sympathy for most of what the Labor Zionist movement has done. My sympathies are with the Jewish people of Israel, and my political ideology is closer to Religious Zionism and Revisionist Zionism. My religious observance is Orthodox, which would not have mixed well with the Labor Zionists of Ben-Gurion's day. From what I have studied, he did all he could to keep Orthodox Jews from making it out of Europe to Israel.

I don't think the ancient, national home of the children of Israel was regained and national sovereignty reconstituted because of the Labor Zionists, or because of the Holocaust, or the British or the UN, or because Stalin or Truman recognized what was already a fact. The G-d of Israel offered these groups and people the opportunity to participate in His project, in the reconstitution of the Jewish nation. It would have happened with our without their participation. There are no accidents, no coincidences, and everything happens for a reason. The Jewish people have come home, and the credit goes to the Creator of the Universe. 

So go ahead and dig up all the dirt you can find on Israel. Have you ever read "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee"? The American government has been guilty of a lot of crimes.  The German government has been guilty of more than its fair share of crimes, with a specialty in massive war crimes. But nobody (except perhaps the Native Americans) questions the right of those two nations to a) exist, and b) to defend themselves. Israel has the right to exist. Israel has the right to and will defend herself against all enemies, both foreign and domestic. If the government of Israel fails the Jewish people, then the Jewish people will do what they need to do to live. Not defending themselves, their wives, grandparents and children is immoral.

I have nothing personal against the Arab peoples of the region. They are my cousins and I wish them only the best. 

For peace to finally reside in the Middle East there are a few conditions that must be met:

The Arabs/Muslims of the Middle East must; stop fomenting hatred against Jews and Israel; cease attacking Israel at every opportunity; invest their money and creativity in building their own societies instead of tearing down Israel's society; 
The so-called "do-gooders" in Europe and America need to leave the peoples of the Middle East alone to work out their own differences.

What the Arab/Muslim people who are bent on war against the people of Israel need to realize is that this continued insistence on making war is what is bringing unbearable suffering to them, not the fact that the Jews have re-constituted their sovereignty once again. 

War is impoverishing for everyone but the weapons industry and their salesmen. Those are good principles for everyone to remember.

----------


## Bman

> You know, Bman, I really thought better of you until now. I was looking forward to your post and to your joke. _Until I read it_.
> 
> Beauty only exists in fair-minded words, which only come from the minds of kindly people. Imposing grotesque, vulgar stereotypes on others only reveals the small-mindedness of the conveyor. My joke was lighthearted and friendly. I don't take kindly to your "joke" at all. It's degrading to both Catholics and Jews.


I thought twice, but figured people would understand that even a tasteless joke is still a joke.

If you were offended sorry, but I am a fan of some low brow humor, don't know why just am.

----------


## Bman

> Was this really necessary?



No.




> Do you think Ron Paul would be proud?


I could have told you months ago that my taste in humor is much different than Ron's.

WWJD.  Forgive and move on.  It's called a joke.

----------


## revolutionisnow

http://catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1693

THE POLITICS OF CHILD RAPE

October 14, 2009

Catholic League president Bill Donohue comments on a front-page news story in today’s New York Times on the problem of child sexual abuse:

Reporter Paul Vitello shows the shocking extent of child sexual abuse in Brooklyn’s Orthodox Jewish community. He also details the cover-ups that have long been aided and abetted by law enforcement.

Where have all the church-and-state advocates been all these years when Orthodox rabbis were allowed by the D.A.’s office to settle these cases “internally”? Where have all the professional victims’ groups been in staging protests outside synagogues? Where have all the sue-happy lawyers been seeking to plunder the Orthodox? Where have all the comedians and late-night entertainers been in cracking jokes about rabbis raping kids?

It’s not just Orthodox Jews who have been given a pass: no group has gotten away easier than public school employees. Consider this. Because public school students have only 90 days to file suit, it is already too late to prosecute a teacher—in virtually every state—who molested a minor as recently as last spring. But if the offense took place in a Catholic school, the student has years to file suit. Not only that, molesting teachers are still shuffled from one school district to another; it’s called “passing the trash.”

Orthodox Jews try cases of child rape in rabbinical courts. Imagine if the Catholic Church failed to report abuse cases to the authorities and decided instead to institute its own ecclesial courts? Today’s article quotes a Jewish attorney urging law enforcement to recognize “religious sensitivities” for the guilty by seeking alternatives to prison. Allow a Catholic attorney to advise the same and it’s called corruption.

Last year, 40 minors in this small Jewish community said they were abused. Last year, there were 10 such allegations in the entire Catholic Church in all 50 states. Catholics are fed up with the duplicity. It’s not just Roman Polanski who can rape and run with impunity these days. The politics of child rape is sickening.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> YouTube - Ahmadinejad Greeted by Anti-Zionist Jews in New York


YouTube - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: "Death to Israel"

----------


## Bman

> Imposing grotesque, vulgar stereotypes on others only reveals the small-mindedness of the conveyor.


Plus don't get too holier than thou.  I'm sure gays aren't too fond of being called Nazi's.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=199430

----------


## jmdrake

YouTube - Ahmadinejad DID NOT threaten to "wipe Israel off the map."

YouTube - George Galloway on the Middle East part 1

Ahmadinijed called for "regime change" in Israel.  Of course only American and Israel can call for regime change.

----------


## jmdrake

> plus don't get too holier than thou.  I'm sure gays aren't too fond of being called nazi's.
> 
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=199430


lol

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Plus don't get too holier than thou.  I'm sure gays aren't too fond of being called Nazi's.
> 
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=199430


I didn't write the book. I posted the research. I have asked Europeans about this, and they have looked at me incredulously, replying, "Of course most of the Nazi's were gay or pederasts. Everyone knows this." Today's PC atmosphere now attempts to muzzle the truth. Unnatural lifestyles are not only medically unhealthy, a fact, but spiritually unhealthy as well. The statistics of violence and sexual abuse among the gay community is tragic. That does not mean I condone hateful actions or attitudes towards gays. Calling a spade a spade is tough love.

Furthermore, I made it clear that Hitler persecuted certain portions of the gay community. You will not find me making vulgar jokes about the homosexual community either. They don't need your patronizing views. They need compassion, and good people to help them find a way out, something that conservative Christians and Orthodox Jews invest in, for the long-term health and happiness of any members in the gay community who choose to avail themselves of the opportunity.

I don't suffer from moral relativism, and I don't make filthy jokes about anyone.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> YouTube - Ahmadinejad DID NOT threaten to "wipe Israel off the map."
> 
> YouTube - George Galloway on the Middle East part 1
> 
> Ahmadinijed called for "regime change" in Israel.  Of course only American and Israel can call for regime change.


*Marg bar Israel* means "death to Israel". Not "I think there needs to be a regime change in Israel." I know enough Farsi to know that much. He makes those mild statements for PR reasons to the gullible West, while he rants and raves "Marg bar Israel" in Iran.

----------


## Bman

> I didn't write the book. I posted the research.


I didn't write the joke.  I posted the content.




> You will not find me making vulgar jokes about the homosexual community either. They don't need your patronizing views.  They need compassion, and good people to help them find a way out


Oh Elya.  I'm a musician.  Many people I work with are gay.  Me patronizing them?  Maybe you should read that comment you made a few more times.  A way out?  Wow.




> I don't suffer from moral relativism, and I don't make filthy jokes about anyone.


So you don't tell filthy jokes. What does that mean?

----------


## jmdrake

> *Marg bar Israel* means "death to Israel". Not "I think there needs to be a regime change in Israel." I know enough Farsi to know that much. He makes those mild statements for PR reasons to those in the gullible West, while he rants and raves about the death of Israel in Iran.


 I forgot.  You are the expert on everything.  Even things you are not the expert on.  You are the expert on creating strawmen and pretending the discussion is about which branch of zionism did what as opposed the the clear and undeniable fact that zionists supported Hitler while non zionists tried to stop him.  (And yes I know there is more than one branch of zionist and I've always known that).  I'm sure you know more than all of the rabbis who met with Ahmadinijad.  You are Abraham reincarnated.  All hail ElyaKatz.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I didn't write the joke.  I posted the content....


You're posting in the wrong thread Bman. This isn't the *Homosexual Roots of Nazism* thread. If you take issues with my views or the fact that I posted the link to *The Pink Swastika*, then take it up on that thread.

----------


## jmdrake

> You're posting in the wrong thread Bman. This isn't the *Homosexual Roots of Nazism* thread. If you take issues with my views or the fact that I posted the link to *The Pink Swastika*, then take it up on that thread.


He posted it to show your hypocrisy.  It's relevant in this thread.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I forgot.  You are the expert on everything.  Even things you are not the expert on.  You are the expert on creating strawmen and pretending the discussion is about which branch of zionism did what as opposed the the clear and undeniable fact that zionists supported Hitler while non zionists tried to stop him.  (And yes I know there is more than one branch of zionist and I've always known that).  I'm sure you know more than all of the rabbis who met with Ahmadinijad.  You are Abraham reincarnated.  All hail ElyaKatz.


More personal attacks with no factual content...

Getting the actual history straight is not a "strawman fallacy". 




> ...clear and undeniable fact that zionists supported Hitler while non zionists tried to stop him.


I asked you what your point was, and you didn't answer me as far as I know. Maybe I missed something. There were Zionists and non-Zionists that fought Hitler too. I don't understand the significance of the point.

Based on the following definition of the "strawman fallacy" I think you're guilty of what you accuse me:

*Fallacy: Straw Man*




> You are Abraham reincarnated.  All hail ElyaKatz


Thanks for the accolades. I'm not convinced that HaShem would do a cross-gender reincarnation though. Maybe I'm Sarah...

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I thought twice, but figured people would understand that even a tasteless joke is still a joke.
> 
> If you were offended sorry, but I am a fan of some low brow humor, don't know why just am.


Apology accepted. I really don't think that sort of thing is funny. I love Seinfeld but not when it gets dirty. And I really like Ellen's videos, precisely because she only gets risque. Risque is fine, it can be hysterical. Especially when Elllen does it. I'm going to post Judaism's view of homosexuality at that Homosexual Roots of Nazism thread. You might be surprised. That thread is not meant to attack homosexuals...it's meant to get to the mystery behind Nazism. I'm sure there are many, many pieces to the puzzle.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> THE POLITICS OF CHILD RAPE


This isn't the "Pedophilia Run Rampant in America" thread either. Abuse of children has run rampant. I hope every single person who has either abused or covered up cases of child rape is found, tried and, in my opinion, they deserve the death penalty. 

There will be no more responses to off-topic posts from me on this thread, except to say you're off-topic RIN. Have you yet demonstrated that there is an ancient people called the "Palestinians" with some valid sources outside your won mind? That is the theory which I have challenged in this thread. Or are you just visiting every thread on this site that dares to suggest Jews and Israel might have a case to be made for reconstituting sovereignty in Eretz Israel?

----------


## jmdrake

> More personal attacks with no factual content...


Telling the truth is a "personal attack" in your book.  Got it.




> Getting the actual history straight is not a "strawman fallacy".


Except I never debated that "actual history".  It would be as if I said "An American president dropped the first atomic bomb" and you replied "But what you don't know is that there are democrats and republicans in America".    The fact that I didn't break out all of the different branches of zionism didn't mean I didn't know they existed.  I did.  Most of the ones you mentioned are on the site I was quoting from.




> I asked you what your point was, and you didn't answer me as far as I know. Maybe I missed something. There were Zionists and non-Zionists that fought Hitler too. I don't understand the significance of the point.


I said the point multiple times.  And it's self evident.  The boycott was started by Jews who were not zionist and undermined by Jews that were.  You're ready to excuse terrorism against the British because you don't think and give "collective punishment" for what the British supposedly didn't do decades before the bombing of the king David hotel while excusing zionists because there are multiple branches.  There are multiple parties in Britain too!  Your defense of terrorism in the name of zionism is just laughable.




> Based on the following definition of the "strawman fallacy" I think you're guilty of what you accuse me:


Coming from someone who defends hotel bombings I'll take that as a compliment.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Telling the truth is a "personal attack" in your book.  Got it.


Arguing the person instead of the issue is a personal attack. 




> Coming from someone who defends hotel bombings I'll take that as a compliment.


And there you go with your strawman arguments again. I never defended hotel bombings. I defended bombing a hotel that was being used as a military command center.

Get on topic. I don't feel any obligation to respond to you anymore.




> Well considering how Sarah had Abraham force himself on Hagar and then got mad about it maybe that's accurate.


Ah. Now you reveal how much you project when you call me obscene names, i.e. jackass, prick, etc. which can be found in your previous posts. That usually is the case. When someone insults others, it's because they really believe those insults apply to themselves.

Judging by your participation in this thread, my conclusions are:
You know you've lost the debate. There is an particular axiom of truth: Whoever starts the name calling or starts yelling (lots of exclamation points, also present in your posts) loses the debate.
The fact that you express such scurrilous opinions of two of the most admired people people in the history of mankind --albeit imperfect -- the much beloved Abraham and Sarah, who are considered the father and mother of the three major religions, there are not too many people who couldn't easily earn a place on your hate list, which is no doubt a long one. Thanks for ranking me up with them.
Any further discussion with you is a total waste of time.

----------


## jmdrake

> Arguing the person instead of the issue is a personal attack. And there you go with  your strawman arguments again. I never defended hotel bombing. I defended bombing a hotel that was being used as a military target. 
> 
> Start getting on topic. I don't feel any obligation to respond to you anymore.


You said that the bombing wasn't terrorism.  If that's not "defense" than I don't know what is.  And feel free not to respond to me.  It's not like you've made any legitimate arguments anyway.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> You said that the bombing wasn't terrorism.  If that's not "defense" than I don't know what is.  And feel free not to respond to me.  It's not like you've made any legitimate arguments anyway.


Terrorism is the deliberate targeting of civilians. If an enemy uses a hotel or a mosque or a church or a hospital as a military command center, then it is no longer a civilian target.

----------


## jmdrake

> Terrorism is the deliberate targeting of civilians. If an enemy uses a hotel or a mosque or a church or a hospital as a military command center, then it is no longer a civilian target.


So then the bombing of the U.N. headquarters in Baghdad was not terrorism by your definition.  Neither was attacking the Pentagon.  And the CIA had a suite in the WTC complex.  Come to think of it, the BATF had headquarters in the Murrah building in OKC.  Really it's sad that you actually believe this twisted logic.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> It's not like you've made any legitimate arguments anyway.


Well then your work here is done...

Coupla questions for you: Since you're convinced you've won the debate, why do you continue to repost your same opinions? I see nothing to back them.

And, have you actually ever posted anything which disproves my original theory, that there is no such thing as an ancient "palestinian people" who lived in Eretz Israel since time immemorial...those poor victims that the evil Jews supposedly stole land from? Any facts to back your contentions, or just your nasty personality?

----------


## jmdrake

> Well then your work here is done...
> 
> Coupla questions for you: Since you're convinced you've won the debate, why do you continue to repost your same opinions? I see nothing to back them.


Why do you continue to defend terrorism based on the lame excuse that military people at a hotel made the hotel a legitimate target?  Do you think the Murrah building was then a legitimate military target for Tim McVeigh?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Why do you continue to defend terrorism based on the lame excuse that military people at a hotel made the hotel a legitimate target?  Do you think the Murrah building was then a legitimate military target for Tim McVeigh?


The Murrah building was not serving as a military headquarters in a foreign nation that we were oppressing. The British were hanging Jews for simple acts of self-defense, for possessing arms, they were encouraging Arabs to attack Jews. So, no, of course I don't support the horrific bombing of the Murrah building.

The two situations are totally unrelated. No parallels. Nothing. Nada. Last response. I don't know from you anymore.

Now, back to some real discussions, hopefully with people who are not interested in spreading hate and invective, but who are asking honest questions.

I am currently listening to a fascinating audio about a Bedouin family which has made public the fact that they stem from Jewish ancestry. They are suffering terribly at the hands of the Arab Muslims in the region, having had their home burned, shot at etc. This family has raised an Israeli flag, and is in favor of the "evil, racist Zionist regime". _Imagine that..._

*Audio: Sheikh Under Fire*

There are increasing reports of crypto-Jews in Eretz Israel who are wanting to return to Judaism, or at least who want to publicly live in peace with the Jewish community in Israel. This supports my theory that if outside foreign powers would get their big butts out of the region, the war weary populations in the Middle East would be able to make peace.

----------


## jmdrake

> The Murrah building was not serving as a military headquarters in a foreign nation that we were oppressing. The British were hanging Jews for simple acts of self-defense, for possessing arms, they were encouraging Arabs to attack Jews. So, no, of course I don't support the horrific bombing of the Murrah building.


The BATF killed men women and children in Waco.  What they did was certainly no better than your alleged offense by the British.  In fact it was worse.  The people in Waco didn't get a trial before being killed.




> The two situations are totally unrelated. No parallels. Nothing. Nada.


Did you even *follow* the trial of Tim McVeigh?  The government's whole premise is that McVeigh justified his actions because of his anger over the killings at Waco and Ruby Ridge.  If you're going to justify killing innocent civilians in a hotel because you don't like the way a few "self defense" trials went then you've just justified the OKC bombing.  In fact there's more justification for OKC under your reasoning.

----------


## revolutionisnow

> This isn't the "Pedophilia Run Rampant in America" thread either. Abuse of children has run rampant. I hope every single person who has either abused or covered up cases of child rape is found, tried and, in my opinion, they deserve the death penalty. 
> 
> There will be no more responses to off-topic posts from me on this thread, except to say you're off-topic RIN. Have you yet demonstrated that there is an ancient people called the "Palestinians" with some valid sources outside your won mind? That is the theory which I have challenged in this thread. Or are you just visiting every thread on this site that dares to suggest Jews and Israel might have a case to be made for reconstituting sovereignty in Eretz Israel?


There were people that lived there previously, and it wasn't these European Ashkenazis, who cares if they were called Persians, Arabs or Palestinians? Who cares if they were under another empires rule? To return somewhere, don't you have to have been there first? Who are Israelis? Have you demonstrated that there are any ancient people called "Israelis"? If not, why should there be any now?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> There were people that lived there previously, and it wasn't these European Ashkenazis, who cares if they were called Persians, Arabs or Palestinians? Who cares if they were under another empires rule? To return somewhere, don't you have to have been there first? Who are Israelis? Have you demonstrated that there are any ancient people called "Israelis"? If not, why should there be any now?


Nobody stole their land either....and as I've repeatedly pointed out with proof, approximately 50% of the Jewish population in Israel is of Middle Eastern or North African descent...indigenous. These people were thrown out of their homes and came to Israel with only the clothes on their backs in many cases. All their money was confiscated, as was their land.

YouTube - The Forgotten Refugees - The Only Authentic Version - Part 1
In one little corner of the Middle East, the Jews have sovereign rights to determine their own immigration policy. They have decided that their immigration policy allows other Jews the right to live in Eretz Israel if they would like. 

Jews sovereign rights were stolen from them. And Jews got them back. You don't like it? Try and change it.

----------


## ElyaKatz

BS"D

*1948, Israel, and the Palestinians: Annotated Text* by Efraim Karsh 

*Published in Commentary Magazine* May 2008

For a fully annotated version of this article, click *here*.

_Sixty years after its establishment by an internationally recognized act of self-determination, Israel remains the only state in the world that is subjected to a constant outpouring of the most outlandish conspiracy theories and blood libels; whose policies and actions are obsessively condemned by the international community; and whose right to exist is constantly debated and challenged not only by its Arab enemies but by segments of advanced opinion in the West.

During the past decade or so, the actual elimination of the Jewish state has become a cause célèbre among many of these educated Westerners. The “one-state solution,” as it is called, is a euphemistic formula proposing the replacement of Israel by a state, theoretically comprising the whole of historic Palestine, in which Jews will be reduced to the status of a permanent minority. Only this, it is said, can expiate the “original sin” of Israel’s founding, an act built (in the words of one critic) “on the ruins of Arab Palestine” and achieved through the deliberate and aggressive dispossession of its native population.

This claim of premeditated dispossession and the consequent creation of the longstanding Palestinian “refugee problem” forms, indeed, the central plank in the bill of particulars pressed by Israel’s alleged victims and their Western supporters. It is a charge that has hardly gone undisputed. As early as the mid-1950’s, the eminent American historian J.C. Hurewitz undertook a systematic refutation, and his findings were abundantly confirmed by later generations of scholars and writers. Even Benny Morris, the most influential of Israel’s revisionist “new historians,” and one who went out of his way to establish the case for Israel’s “original sin,” grudgingly stipulated that there was no “design” to displace the Palestinian Arabs.

The recent declassification of millions of documents from the period of the British Mandate (1920-1948) and Israel’s early days, documents untapped by earlier generations of writers and ignored or distorted by the “new historians,” paint a much more definitive picture of the historical record. They reveal that the claim of dispossession is not only completely unfounded but the inverse of the truth. What follows is based on fresh research into these documents, which contain many facts and data hitherto unreported.
_____________

Far from being the hapless objects of a predatory Zionist assault, it was Palestinian Arab leaders who from the early 1920’s onward, and very much against the wishes of their own constituents, launched a relentless campaign to obliterate the Jewish national revival. This campaign culminated in the violent attempt to abort the UN resolution of November 29, 1947, which called for the establishment of two states in Palestine. Had these leaders, and their counterparts in the neighboring Arab states, accepted the UN resolution, there would have been no war and no dislocation in the first place.

The simple fact is that the Zionist movement had always been amenable to the existence in the future Jewish state of a substantial Arab minority that would participate on an equal footing “throughout all sectors of the country’s public life.” The words are those of Ze’ev Jabotinsky, the founding father of the branch of Zionism that was the forebear of today’s Likud party. In a famous 1923 article, Jabotinsky voiced his readiness “to take an oath binding ourselves and our descendants that we shall never do anything contrary to the principle of equal rights, and that we shall never try to eject anyone.”

Eleven years later, Jabotinsky presided over the drafting of a constitution for Jewish Palestine. According to its provisions, Arabs and Jews were to share both the prerogatives and the duties of statehood, including most notably military and civil service. Hebrew and Arabic were to enjoy the same legal standing, and “in every cabinet where the prime minister is a Jew, the vice-premiership shall be offered to an Arab and vice-versa.”

If this was the position of the more “militant” faction of the Jewish national movement, mainstream Zionism not only took for granted the full equality of the Arab minority in the future Jewish state but went out of its way to foster Arab-Jewish coexistence. In January 1919, Chaim Weizmann, then the upcoming leader of the Zionist movement, reached a peace-and-cooperation agreement with the Hashemite emir Faisal ibn Hussein, the effective leader of the nascent pan-Arab movement. From then until the proclamation of the state of Israel on May 14, 1948, Zionist spokesmen held hundreds of meetings with Arab leaders at all levels. These included Abdullah ibn Hussein, Faisal’s elder brother and founder of the emirate of Transjordan (later the kingdom of Jordan), incumbent and former prime ministers in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and Iraq, senior advisers of King Abdul Aziz ibn Saud (founder of Saudi Arabia), and Palestinian Arab elites of all hues.

As late as September 15, 1947, two months before the passing of the UN partition resolution, two senior Zionist envoys were still seeking to convince Abdel Rahman Azzam, the Arab League’s secretary-general, that the Palestine conflict “was uselessly absorbing the best energies of the Arab League,” and that both Arabs and Jews would greatly benefit “from active policies of cooperation and development.” Behind this proposition lay an age-old Zionist hope: that the material progress resulting from Jewish settlement of Palestine would ease the path for the local Arab populace to become permanently reconciled, if not positively well disposed, to the project of Jewish national self-determination. As David Ben-Gurion, soon to become Israel’s first prime minister, argued in December 1947:

If the Arab citizen will feel at home in our state, . . . if the state will help him in a truthful and dedicated way to reach the economic, social, and cultural level of the Jewish community, then Arab distrust will accordingly subside and a bridge will be built to a Semitic, Jewish-Arab alliance._

*Click here to continue reading*

For a fully annotated version of this article, click *here*.

For those who have a difficult time believing the claims of goodwill described in Mr. Efraim Karsh's article, I encourage you to listen to the audio below, of Tamar Yonah, interviewing Mr. Tzvi Misinai and Rabbi Yeshayahu Hollander of the nascent Sanhedrin. They and others in Israel are going to great efforts on behalf of Bedouin and Arab families who have had the courage to let them know they are from Jewish origins. Apparently, Mr. Ben-Gurion and other Labor Zionists were aware of these "Crypto-Jews" as well, and were interested in exploring how the two peoples could work together to form a strong federation between Jews and families of Jewish descent. (Something the Labor Zionists got right!!) The folks in Israel working on this very fascinating project are not interested in forcing anyone to convert, but to strengthen the ties between them, due to their common history. And, if any do choose to convert back into Judaism, from which their families were coerced, they will of course, be welcome.

*Audio: Sheikh Under Fire*

----------


## jmdrake

Ely, I will say this.  I did go overboard in personal attacks and for that I apologize.  That said you owe an apology to the British people for defending a terrorist attack against them as "self defense" and characterizing them as "the enemy".  During the U.S. revolution against Britain the founding fathers of America *never* considered the idea of lumping in innocent civilians as part of a "military target".  Again if you can justify the bombing of the King David hotel then there are few terrorist attacks that cannot be justified.  OKC is certainly justified under that calculus for attacking those who carried out Waco and Ruby Ridge.  

As for the last article you posted, this part is the only part worth commenting on.  _The simple fact is that the Zionist movement had always been amenable to the existence in the future Jewish state of a substantial Arab minority that would participate on an equal footing “throughout all sectors of the country’s public life.”_    Yes that's the key.  Israel can only exists as it is by enforcing permanent minority status on the people who were in the majority at the time of Israel's conception.  In other words Israel requires a state of apartheid to exist.  Even if Arabs living inside Israel gained majority status through birth rates you have the same result.  No majority Jewish state.  It's simple arithmetic.  It's also interesting that your last post quotes David Ben Gurion.  Here is another David Ben Gurion quote taken from the book *The Jewish Paradox* by Nahum Goldman.

_I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out._

Nice summary of the issue.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> The BATF killed men women and children in Waco.  What they did was certainly no better than your alleged offense by the British.  In fact it was worse.  The people in Waco didn't get a trial before being killed.


Many of the Jews of Mandated Palestine didn't receive trials either. And if they did, they were kangaroo courts, something the British are known for.




> ....If you're going to justify killing innocent civilians in a hotel because you don't like the way a few "self defense" trials went then you've just justified the OKC bombing.  In fact there's more justification for OKC under your reasoning.


Wrong. Because there is the possibility of the rule of law in this country in order to right such wrongs. His form of justice is vigilante justice. During the days of the Palestine Mandate, while there was lip service being paid to the rule of law, the facts on the ground were anything but the rule of law. Arab gangs were allowed to run rampant, murdering Jews at will with little or no consequences. When Jews tried to defend themselves against those same Arab gangs, who were doing the bidding of Hajj Amin al-Husayni, the Jews found themselves in jail or worse. Husayni would later ally himself with Adolf Hitler. The documentation is there for anyone to see to prove this fact. 

America is not occupied land, being occupied by a cruel, and lawless oppressor. Mandate Palestine was occupied land, by the British, who were violating their legal obligations under which they received the Palestine Mandate, which was to facilitate the close settlement of Jews in order to assist in the reconstitution of the Jewish homeland which had been wrongly stolen from the Jewish people for 2000+ years. 

Again, there is no parallel that can be drawn from the two situations. I have provided the links in previous posts on this thread to back my claims in this matter. If you're going to claim that an attack on a military command center, occupied by a lawless occupying authority, is not a valid military target, then no nation can declare war on an belligerent, nation making war against other nations ever again.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> He posted it to show your hypocrisy.  It's relevant in this thread.


Citing a book that explores the historically proven role of homosexuality within Nazi Germany, which is validated by outside sources by the author, is not the same as making vulgar jokes about anyone, whether they are homosexuals, priests or rabbis. All of these people are made in the image of the Creator, and denigrating jokes have no place anywhere. 

In all of my posts, my views reflect the outlooks of the Torah. You place fast and loose with definitions my friend. I'm not endorsing immorality in either case. If I endorsed immorality on the part of priests or rabbis, but no homosexuals, that would be hypocrisy. I don't. I also don't endorse denigrating, vulgar jokes about any of the above categories of people. 

*hy·poc·ri·sy  (h-pkr-s)*

n. pl. hy·poc·ri·sies
1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
2. An act or instance of such falseness.

----------


## ElyaKatz

BS"D

*Post #365 by YumYum*




> I also know for a fact that it was Israeli soldiers who blew up the Marine barracks in Lebanon.


YumYum, in post #381, I responded to your claim, quoted above with a court document which stated that Hezbollah was behind the bombing of the US Marine Barracks in 1983.

In post #391, you countered that this court document and other documentation I posted which contradicts what your father has told you re the IDF's alleged involvement. I then asked you to name the IDF officer who told your father otherwise. You have yet to respond. Please name the IDF officer that claims IDF soldiers blew up the Marine barracks in Lebanon in 1983. Otherwise, how can we verify that this is not merely another anti-Israel rumor?

I have another question for you. Who was behind the Munich massacre? The word is, that Mahmoud Abbas, aka Abu Mazen was the mastermind behind that horror? Do you think that's true??

Below is the discussion between you and I on this subject:



> I also know for a fact that it was Israeli soldiers who blew up the Marine barracks in Lebanon.


*Response Post #391 by YumYum*




> This report is not true. My dad personally met the man in the IDF whose squad blew up the barracks. Do you really think Israel would own up to this? After they blew up the barracks, the U.S. troops left Lebanon: Mission acomplished!

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Ely, I will say this.  I did go overboard in personal attacks and for that I apologize.


What a pleasant surprise. I don't recall anyone ever expressing that much animus towards me and then apologizing. Says a lot for you jmdrake. Apology accepted.




> That said you owe an apology to the British people for defending a terrorist attack against them as "self defense" and characterizing them as "the enemy".


No can do, and it's not for you to determine either. I do think it was a horrible tragedy that so many civilians died during that bombing, but I know from British history that they are famous for their arrogance towards native peoples and towards Jews. The reply when they were warned pretty much exemplified that arrogance. Those innocent people are dead because the Brits refused to "take orders from Jews". And I posted proof positive that they were warned but refused the warning. It was war between the Jews and the British Mandate Authority, as much as between the Arab leaders and the Jews. As much was admitted by a few British officers who had the integrity to expose their superiors. 

I value the lives of the dead Jews that were murdered by the Brits just as much as the lives of the innocent civilians that were killed that night. They were collateral damage.




> During the U.S. revolution against Britain the founding fathers of America *never* considered the idea of lumping in innocent civilians as part of a "military target".


The civilians were not the target during the King David Hotel bombing. The entire context of what was going since the British accepted the Palestinian Mandate from the League of Nations has to be taken into consideration. One must also understand the legal obligations the British had accepted by the League of Nations in taking the Palestine Mandate, and how seriously in violation they were of those legal obligations, as well as how many innocent lives were lost because of those violations. 

Do you have any idea how many Jews wanted to escape to Eretz Israel, and they had the legal right to do so? But the British Mandate authority kept pushing the bar higher and higher. First the Jews were required to have this much money, then more, and more. The Brits set ridiculously low quotas, and they subtracted a high estimate of projected "illegal" Jewish immigration from those already low quotas, which weren't reached in any case. And they kept their own immigration quotas of Jews wanting to escape from the Nazis to Britain low as well. Almost all the nations of the world did.. Few countries, apart from Japan and some other notable exceptions would take in any significant number of Jews during WWII. As if that wasn't enough, the Britsh blocked Jewish escape to Eretz Israel as well. The British are the ones who owe me an apology. Almost all my relatives from Europe were murdered during that time, and the British of that day were as guilty as the Germans, only they were more sneaky about it.




> [i]I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader


Arab leader...that's the operative word. If you don't understand the desire of the average Arab to just live in peace and raise their families, and how they have been worked over in order to maintain a hostile stance against the Jewish people historically, then you have not read much of what I've posted, or you haven't read it carefully. I'm posting actual historical research. Even after all the hounding and vigilante justice in murdering Arab "collaborators" in the streets of the PA, even after all the emigration out of the PA by moderate Arabs, there are amazingly enough, still Arabs in Eretz Israel that want peace, but the West keeps empowering their oppressive overlords.

----------


## ElyaKatz

BS"D

*Post # 335 by revolutionisnow*




> What about some of the lesser controversial issues, such as the existence of a Kosher tax,


I found an article that might shed some light on the issue of kosher certification. 

*Nearly Half of US Supermarket Foods Are Kosher*

*Two excerpts:*

_"The burgeoning kosher food industry now accounts for 40 percent of food products on American supermarket shelves, according to the Mintel research organization."

"Industry officials estimate that more than 10 million Americans, approximately double the number of Jews in the country, buy kosher items."_

Makes me happy. If it doesn't make you happy RIN, i can understand that. However no one is forcing you to buy kosher certified foods, any more than you are required to purchase the much more highly priced organic foods, which are also capturing an increased share of the market. As for kosher meats and cheeses, you really have to go out of your way to buy the much more highly priced kosher meats and cheeses. The market for those products is small and specialized, mostly located in special kosher sections of larger grocery stores in cities with a high Jewish population, or in kosher butchers/grocers which cater almost exclusively to the observant Jewish community.

It's part of the price you pay for living in a society that tolerant of different religious practices and lifestyles. A nice side-benefit of kosher certified food is that you are pretty much guaranteed not to have insects in your processed foods.

Having kosher certified products available does not qualify as a "tax" in any sense of the word. Kosher certification is a service provided that is 100% voluntary, and market driven. Taxes are involuntarily imposed on us by the government.

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## jmdrake

> I value the lives of the dead Jews that were murdered by the Brits just as much as the lives of the innocent civilians that were killed that night. They were collateral damage.


I see you still won't acknowledge the point I made about Tim McVeigh and OKC.  I can't say that I blame you for dodging that.  Tim McVeigh's disgusting reasoning is the same that you are using to justify the bombing of the King David hotel.  He considered them "collateral damage".  As for the so called "warning", if you believe the official story Osama Bin Laden "warned" the U.S. to get out of Saudi Arabia making the 3,000 Americans killed little more than "collateral damage".  It is a sin and a shame for zionists to continue to justify the unjustifiable and you only weaken your own cause by doing so.  The animus I displayed to you was based on your justification of mass murder.  That said no good comes from animus, even when directed at defenders of terrorism.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I see you still won't acknowledge the point I made about Tim McVeigh and OKC.


You're being more polite, in a way, but you are still focusing on me, trying to analyze me and my motivations, instead of analyzing the two different circumstances. That is what an ad hominem fallacy is...arguing the person, rather than the issue. In both situations, there were bombs and civilian deaths. That is where the similarities end. Your logic is flawed.




> I can't say that I blame you for dodging that.


Really disingenous jmdrake, as is later revealed in your post. You certainly do "blame me". You are accusing me of siding with terrorism, but your definition of terrorism needs to be tightened up. Not all warfare is "terrorism". I don't agree with the statement made by some moral relativists who say, "One man's terrorism is another man's freedom fighter." I am not claiming you have written this during our discussion on this thread. But it seems to me it's the philosophy you are defending here in your attempt to draw a parallel between the Murrah bombing by McVeigh and the King David Hotel bombing. BTW, there is an Islamic connection, not heavily publicized, in that bombing. McVeigh may have been an Islamic sympathizer, Islamic convert, or perhaps a white supremacist who was allied with jihadists.

*Timothy McVeigh and Middle-Eastern Connections?*

There are moral absolutes that can be measured and analyzed. For instance, the Torah tells us not to commit murder. Some people claim it says "Thou shalt not kill." No. If someone breaks your door down and aims his gun at your family, you shoot to kill. That is the moral thing to do. The situation in the Yishuv was about as desperate as that.

I have acknowledged your points and rejected your reasoning. Their is no analogy. The issue is not whether there are law enforcement or government agencies in a building. The fact is that the British Military Command was located at the King David Hotel. The Edward Murrah building was NOT a military command post. The British were conducting warfare against the Jews, the entire Jewish community of the Yishuv, not just some compound. They were using the Arabs as their proxies and the Arab leadership was only too happy to cooperate. 

The British were one in a long line of occupying forces in Eretz Israel, dating back to Rome and Greece. That occupying force came into possession of the given territory in order to facilitate the reconstitution of a national Jewish homeland via "close Jewish settlement". I am referring to legal documents that carried legal weight after WWI. That same occupying force did not honor their legal obligations, which they took on voluntarily. Not only that, but they actually did deliberate and serious harm to that objective, by jailing and assisting in the murders of the very people they were pledged to help. 

The Jews of the Yishuv had tried every remedy available to them to receive justice at the hands of the British, to no avail, and the deaths kept mounting. In those circumstances, after every promise of assistance was broken, it became clear that the British would not settle for anything less than the destruction of organized Jewish life in the Yishuv. That is a declaration of war by the British on a people long oppressed and greatly weakened, if not in so many words, then in deed, and plenty of words of malice against the Jews were indeed uttered and recorded.

McVeigh could not claim there are no legal remedies to injustices in America. I simply don't agree with you that the two situations are at all comparable.  




> Tim McVeigh's disgusting reasoning is the same that you are using to justify the bombing of the King David hotel.  He considered them "collateral damage".  As for the so called "warning", if you believe the official story Osama Bin Laden "warned" the U.S. to get out of Saudi Arabia making the 3,000 Americans killed little more than "collateral damage".  It is a sin and a shame for zionists to continue to justify the unjustifiable and you only weaken your own cause by doing so.  The animus I displayed to you was based on your justification of mass murder.  That said no good comes from animus, even when directed at defenders of terrorism.


Your line of thinking leave no recourse to occupied, oppressed people to defend themselves. That was the true situation of the Jews of the Yishuv, against the British Mandate authorities in Palestine, and the Arab leaders. Back in '48, the Arab leadership was calling for the utter annihilation of the Jews of the Yishuv. They repeated the same war cries in 1967 and 1973. It slowly began to dawn on them, that they were not winning militarily. So, they decided to go to war in the sphere of world opinion. Now they are co-opting the Jewish narrative for themselves in order to make the world believe they were the ones who were being oppressed. But that doesn't make it true, and I have demonstrated my case several times over in the links provided, if only you would decide to study them. 

You couldn't have studied them out already. Some of those articles are 50-60 pages long, and I posted several of them. I'm assuming you care about the issue, or you wouldn't spend so much time discussing it with me. If so, those articles deserve your full attention. 

When the Muslim leadership determined to achieve the return of the Caliphate starts with the same strategy they have used against the Jews of Israel in this country, which will involve co-opting the history of this nation and its constitution, then maybe you will understand just how deceptive their methods are.

Here's the deal. America is in retreat against an Islamic onslaught. America has anesthetized herself, doesn't want to face facts. The Jews of Israel, on the other hand, have been down the path that America is heading. If America wants to commit national suicide by ignoring radical Islam, by buying into the radical Islamic narrative on the Middle East, well...that is a tragedy. I sure hope Americans wake up before it's too late. A successful outcome against one's sworn enemies is not guaranteed anywhere. My guess, Israel will not go along for the "national suicide ride". Been there, done that.

So, we can go round and round about this. At this point, we are not going to agree, so why continue this discussion? Read some real history books that you might not agree with. I read history books from all perspectives. Visiting websites is not the same as owning and reading some solid books.

----------


## revolutionisnow

> BS"D
> 
> *Post # 335 by revolutionisnow*
> 
> 
> 
> I found an article that might shed some light on the issue of kosher certification. 
> 
> *Nearly Half of US Supermarket Foods Are Kosher*
> ...


If 40% of all supermarket products are kosher, than it is much more than 10 million people buying them. The number would be closer to the entire population. And no, it doesn't make me happy. Mob shakedowns don't make me happy either. Higher priced organic foods actually have a benefit. Some rabbi blessing foods does not- actually I would prefer they didn't, even if it was a free service. I would prefer not to eat or buy kosher meats ever, as their method of killing the animals is very cruel and barbaric.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> If 40% of all supermarket products are kosher, than it is much more than 10 million people buying them. The number would be closer to the entire population. And no, it doesn't make me happy. Mob shakedowns don't make me happy either. Higher priced organic foods actually have a benefit. Some rabbi blessing foods does not- actually I would prefer they didn't, even if it was a free service.


They don't "bless them". The process of manufacturing is under review to make sure there are no contaminents (such as insects), no mixing of meat and dairy together etc. According to the article, there are 10 million non-Jewish Americans who actively seek out kosher certified foods. Some with food allergies really need the service. You still have many non-kosher choices. In any case, it is a voluntarily provided service. Whatever you may think, there is no "shakedown"




> I would prefer not to eat or buy kosher meats ever, as their method of killing the animals is very cruel and barbaric.


Rubashkins was exposed and disciplined by fellow Orthodox authorities knowledgeable about kosher slaughtering for their non-compliance in human slaughtering methods. Kosher consumers were very unhappy with their practices once they came to light. Accepted USDA methods are also extremely inhumane, and grotesque. Animals that should be turned iinto pet food are accepted for human consumption. Standard kosher methods of slaughter, apart from the expose done on Rubashkins are much more humane. 

In any case, you would not be able to accidentally purchase kosher meat. Kosher meat is always sold in a completely different section of any mainstream grocery store or in kosher only shops. Thus, the kosher meat market has no affect whatsoever on the non-kosher market. In fact, it probably lowers the price, as Jews can't eat the back half of even a kosher slaughtered cow or lamb, and thus must sell it as a price break to suppliers of the non-kosher market. The back half is the more desirable portion of these animals,as that is where the sirloin and other tender cuts are to be found.

So, a very small portion of the non-cheese, non-meat portion of the market is under kosher supervision. Vegans prefer kosher certified cheese, as the rennet in kosher cheese must be a non-animal source. Only in the US, supervised USDA milk does not need kosher certification because the laws of this country are so strict an so well enforced, that the rabbinic ruling is that USDA supervision is sufficient to certify the kosher status of milk. So, your milk prices are not affected either.

Processed foods, are, overall the least healthy, most nutrition deficient part of the grocery market. Fresh fruits and vegetables do not undergo kosher certification. As far as organic foods are concerned, I have been involved in the organic food market, both as a consumer and at times as a supplier (farmer's market) of organic foods for over 20 years. 

Most of the time, USDA organic is higher priced, and almost worthless in it's claims. Ask anyone knowledgeable. In fact, sometimes what is allowed to be considered USDA organic has more questionable farming practice, and the end products has more contaminants than non-organic food, so you claim that there is a benefit to organic certification is not necessarily true. You must seek out local organic certifying bodies, and then check into their standards in order to know whether their certification just means higher prices, or if it really affords benefits commensurate with those higher prices.

The article I posted on the subject lands between your claims and mine. I was not aware that as much as 40% of the processed food market was under kosher certification. This must be a national average, because when I am hunting around for kosher certified canned and packaged goods, it seems to me I often have to refrain from buying a much higher percentage of prepared foods. Your claim that all processed foods are kosher certified was also not accurate. Like I said, that is the price you pay for living in a tolerant society. Small price in my opinion.

----------


## revolutionisnow

Now you're trying to use wordplay to change the meaning of the article. 

"The burgeoning kosher food industry now accounts for 40 percent of food products on American supermarket shelves, according to the Mintel research organization."

That is TOTAL food products, not just processed foods. So, for example if they have an entire aisle full of fresh seafood and meats that are not kosher certified, that is included in the 60% of non kosher items. The fresh fruits and vegetables would also be included in that 60%. 

"Industry officials estimate that more than 10 million Americans, approximately double the number of Jews in the country, buy kosher items."

It says nothing of the sort about people seeking them out, just BUYING kosher items. I buy kosher items, so I would be included in that 10 million number. 

"make sure there are no contaminents (such as insects),no mixing of meat and dairy together etc." 
So the workers at the plants are too incompetent to do this? So much that they need some outside religious organization to assist them? What kind of meat goes into M&M's,black pepper, or aluminum foil? Why do they need a kosher certification?

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## Liberty Star

> [B]‘The Palestinian people does not exist.


Who says that, arab or jewish extremists?  Do you believe in that?  Do imported abused Russian and Brooklyn immigrants in holy land exist?


Who is superior people in your eyes and in the eyes of God, arabs or jews?  


Educate rest of us here who these people are.

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## Reason

Occupation_101.avi

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## ElyaKatz

> Now you're trying to use wordplay to change the meaning of the article.


"The burgeoning kosher food industry now accounts for 40 percent of food products on American supermarket shelves, according to the Mintel research organization."

I just quoted the article. You are free to read the entire article. I left you the link.




> That is TOTAL food products, not just processed foods. So, for example if they have an entire aisle full of fresh seafood and meats that are not kosher certified, that is included in the 60% of non kosher items. The fresh fruits and vegetables would also be included in that 60%.


Might be. I asked. We'll find out. I agree the article wasn't specific enough on that point.

"Industry officials estimate that more than 10 million Americans, approximately double the number of Jews in the country, buy kosher items."




> It says nothing of the sort about people seeking them out, just BUYING kosher items. I buy kosher items, so I would be included in that 10 million number.


Again, I don't think the article was specific on that point. I have put in a request for information from OU.




> "make sure there are no contaminents (such as insects),no mixing of meat and dairy together etc." 
> 
> So the workers at the plants are too incompetent to do this? So much that they need some outside religious organization to assist them? What kind of meat goes into M&M's,black pepper, or aluminum foil? Why do they need a kosher certification?


There is no meat in M&M's, obviously. I don't know what they would be looking for. How about if you ask them? Black pepper, might be insects. I'm not sure. As far as aluminum foil, it's probably the oils that are used on aluminum products. Another issue with canned goods are the release agents on the machinery. Bear fat is sometimes used because it has some improved properties over vegetable fats, and is more stable than most animal fats. Bear fat is not a kosher fat product. That might be the same concern with aluminum foil. I really couldn't tell you. Just a guess, and a pretty wild one at that. 

The standards re insects are not as high as for kosher certification. There is a certain percentage of insect contamination that is allowed in the non-kosher market. It's not a question of competence vs incompetence. Just a difference in priorities.

You can argue from now until kingdom come about the merits or lack thereof re kosher certification. The fact of the matter is, no corporation, aside from Orthodox Jewish corporations, are going to enter into a contract for kosher certification unless the bottom line is profitable for them. Any arrangements are voluntary. If you think there are corporate "shakedowns" then you'll have to provide proof. Otherwise you're just passing along urban legends that appeal to the lowest common denominator in society...

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Educate rest of us here who these people are.


I've already given my views.

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## ElyaKatz

> Occupation_101.avi


The opening premise is a gross oversimplification:

_“Any violence by a large population is not because these people is more violent than any other. It’s an alarm. It’s a sign. It’s a signal that something is wrong in the treatment of these people.”
_
How do you fit that premise into the phenomenon of Nazi Germany? I would agree that large scale violence within a population is a signal that something is wrong. Not necessarily in the treatment of the people, although that could be part of the equation. It might also be a signal that a particularly violent population has been brainwashed.

*The religion of peace?*

It might be that the current teachings popular within Islam, largely financed by the Saudi regime, are having their intended effect. Just as the Nazi educational system had its intended effect.

The Jewish people have been slandered and libeled and oppressed for thousands of years. Our reaction, once we lost our sovereignty and hence our ability to defend ourselves, was to withdraw into our communities and keep our contacts with the outside hostile non-Jewish world to a minimum. 

*The modern "Protocols of Zion"*

_"Genocides don’t just happen. The killers must think they kill in self defense. Which is to say that the victims of an extermination must first be perceived as a mortal danger. For this, a propaganda campaign will be necessary. The propaganda that got between 5 and 6 million Jews exterminated in WWII went by the name Protocols of The Learned Elders of Zion. This series documents that this propaganda is once again being energetically spread by the Western mass media, just as it was in the prelude to WWII."_

The mass murders of Nazi Germany are just a few examples of the results of mass brainwashing, which is easier and cheaper to accomplish than ever before.

----------


## revolutionisnow

YouTube - Jeff Rense | Michael Hoffman 011409 "Judaism Discovered" 2/8

----------


## ElyaKatz

> As for the last article you posted, this part is the only part worth commenting on.  _The simple fact is that the Zionist movement had always been amenable to the existence in the future Jewish state of a substantial Arab minority that would participate on an equal footing “throughout all sectors of the country’s public life.”_


*Really? You don't think this paragraph is worth noting?*

_"Far from being the hapless objects of a predatory Zionist assault, it was Palestinian Arab leaders who from the early 1920’s onward, and very much against the wishes of their own constituents, launched a relentless campaign to obliterate the Jewish national revival. This campaign culminated in the violent attempt to abort the UN resolution of November 29, 1947, which called for the establishment of two states in Palestine. Had these leaders, and their counterparts in the neighboring Arab states, accepted the UN resolution, there would have been no war and no dislocation in the first place."_

*Or this one?*
_
"Eleven years later, Jabotinsky presided over the drafting of a constitution for Jewish Palestine. According to its provisions, Arabs and Jews were to share both the prerogatives and the duties of statehood, including most notably military and civil service. Hebrew and Arabic were to enjoy the same legal standing, and “in every cabinet where the prime minister is a Jew, the vice-premiership shall be offered to an Arab and vice-versa.”_

*Or, how about this?*

_"Had the vast majority of Palestinian Arabs been left to their own devices, they would most probably have been content to take advantage of the opportunities afforded them. This is evidenced by the fact that, throughout the Mandate era, periods of peaceful coexistence far exceeded those of violent eruptions, and the latter were the work of only a small fraction of Palestinian Arabs. Unfortunately for both Arabs and Jews, however, the hopes and wishes of ordinary people were not taken into account, as they rarely are in authoritarian communities hostile to the notions of civil society or liberal democracy. In the modern world, moreover, it has not been the poor and the oppressed who have led the great revolutions or carried out the worst deeds of violence, but rather militant vanguards from among the better educated and more moneyed classes of society."_

*For those who are honestly searching for the truth re the Arab Israel conflict, Efraim Karsh's well researched, fully annotated article is worthy of attention in full.*




> It's also interesting that your last post quotes David Ben Gurion.  Here is another David Ben Gurion quote taken from the book *The Jewish Paradox* by Nahum Goldman.


Nahum Goldman is featured on the radically revisionist history site "Palestine Remembered". The site has an agenda, which does not include historical accuracy. Very few have managed to rise above the polemics of the argument and maintain objectivity. The "Palestine Remembered" site is no exception, that's for sure.

The interesting thing about the Jewish narrative is that mistakes are admitted. On the other hand, the Arab narrative rarely admits that they were ever inhumane towards one another or towards Jews in any way, even in the face of direct quotes by Arab leaders stating their desire to murder or drive out every last Jew in Mandate Palestine, and to mercilessly destroy any Arab who would not participate in those objectives.

----------


## Dunedain

I read somewhere that a gaggle of Rabbis documented how they had an argument with God and they fancied themselves the winner...

The Talmud maybe?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> YouTube - Jeff Rense | Michael Hoffman 011409 "Judaism Discovered" 2/8


Oh yes. It would be obvious that you take the likes of Jeff Rense at face value. You've never bothered learning how the Oral Law is approached from the point of view of Orthodox Judaism, I'm sure. That would be way too intellectual, not nearly paranoid and polemical enough for you.

Ditto for Dunedain's post. Waste of time to try and enlighten either of you. In order for enlightenment to occur, one must want it.

*The Rense Watch*

Learning how to navigate through and/or understand the purpose and structure of the Oral Law via Michael Hoffman or Jeff Rense is like trying to understand the US Constitution from Mao ZeDong. Bad strategy if you want to really know the truth. Great strategy if you're determined to dig in your heels and continue hating.

*Does the Talmud Condone Murder, Pedophilia, and Idolatry?*

----------


## revolutionisnow

When people don't have an argument, they resort to personal attacks. Btw, Rense is just a talk show host/alternative news outlet. The person who is providing the information in that interview is Michael Hoffman, someone thoroughly educated on the Talmud and Judaism.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> When people don't have an argument, they resort to personal attacks. Btw, Rense is just a talk show host/alternative news outlet. The person who is providing the information in that interview is Michael Hoffman, someone thoroughly educated on the Talmud and Judaism.


Hoffman is hardly educated on the Talmud and Judaism. Don't tell me he has learned the high level of Hebrew and Aramaic required, studied all 72 volumes of the Oral Law (Talmud Bavli, then there are 18 volumes of the Talmud Yerushalmi) or the methodology of halachic argumentation. He hasn't. I listened to Rense's Youtube audio. He's an ignoramus and a Holocaust denier, or as he would prefer to be known as "revisionist historian", but not in the scholarly sense. Hoffman is a man with an agenda, hardly a scholar. That agenda is not the truth. I have read posts at this site asking "Why is Holocaust 'revisionism' or 'denial', antisemitic?" Here is one answer:

*Holocaust denial*

Have you listened to the link I provided from Outreach Judaism? The audio is only 15 minutes long. 

*Does the Talmud Condone Murder, Pedophilia, and Idolatry?*

That was my answer to Hoffman. 

Before you try taking the splinter out of my eye, consider reading the works of your own "church fathers" and the sorts of things they were doing to each other, and to my people....back when Christianity's foundations were being formed. Read *When Jesus Became God* sometime. That'll curl your socks.

*Medieval Sourcebook: Saint John Chrysostom (c.347-407) : Eight Homilies Against the Jews*

Far from not having a valid argument, I have placed my argument on this thread before this entire Ron Paul community, complete with sources for you and anyone who cares to honestly search the truth out. However, it is obvious to me that any source which examines history with an eye to learning the truth, and  then comes away from that examination of history with anything positive to say about Jews, Israel, Judaism...that would hold no credibility with you. 

Not one person has addressed my claim re the non-existence of an Arab people called the "Palestinians" prior to 1964 (at the earliest) with counterclaims backed by serious sources. Nor has anyone in this thread indicated that they have read any of the articles by true historians which I've posted - you know, the kind with degrees, that have been trained, have a disciplined mind and all. I've posted plenty. It could keep you reading for a month at least. 

The very claims made shortly after my posting of these articles reveals to me that those links haven't been read. How? Well, some of the points in some of those articles could have been used to refute me. If you would have read them, you could have jumped on those quotes and shot them back at me. That is the way an intellectual debate goes. But when you, revolutionisnow, feel you are losing ground, you jump to your next rabbit trail.

You reveal who you are, especially by posting a Jeff Rense video to back your own assertions. And, those assertions, that video, btw...._are off-topic._

Here's another quote, part of my signature:

"To be moved by rational argument, a person has to be open to rational discourse." -- Caroline Glick

Your problem is not me, my kosher kitchen or what my rabbi teaches me from the Oral Law. In fact, your problem isn't even radical Muslims. And I do specify "radical" in sincerity. I truly believe most Muslims are good people who are tired of being harassed by their corrupt, greedy, power-crazed leaders. 

Your problem is you. You have a mind that is closed to new information, unless it agrees with your own natural inclinations. Now, either post on topic, or be ignored by me from this point on.

----------


## ElyaKatz

BS"D

Now, to inch back to the topic at hand....

Debate on the right of Jews to live in all of Jerusalem and all of Judea & Samaria. Between Mordechai Kedar and Al-Jazeera. This is debate Middle Eastern Style....

YouTube - Mordechai Kedar in al-Jazeera about Jerusalem & Islam

----------


## ElyaKatz

BS"D

This is my premise: The Arabs (Glenn uses the term "Palestinian" but I can forgive him that...) of Gaza, Judea and Samaria are being used by their leaders.

YouTube - Glenn Beck On The Israeli Palestinian Conflict
And that is exactly what happened when the PLO came into being. The plan was to co-opt what was previously a term which meant "Jews who live in the region called Palestine"...in order to create what didn't exist, namely "Palestinian nationalism". The Arab leaders could not get the Arabs of the region to fight the Jews reliably.

*There is No Such Thing as Palestinian People*
by Ellie Katz

*AN ANSWER TO THE NEW ANTI-ZIONISTS:THE RIGHTS OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE TO A SOVEREIGN STATE IN THEIR HISTORIC HOMELAND*
by Dore Gold and Jeff Helmreich

_"There was no active movement to form a unique Palestinian state prior to 1967. In 1956, Ahmad Shuqairy, who would found the PLO eight years later, told the UN Security Council: "it is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria." In the early 1960s, many Palestinians looked to Egypt's Abdul Nasser as their leader as much as to any Palestinian. Given the historical background, it is impossible to argue that the Palestinians have a claim to the Land of Israel superior to that of the Jews, as Israel's detractors contend."_

In the video below, the narrator, an Arab Christian, asks you honest questions revolutionisnow. That's the kind of Christian I respect, someone who calls it like it is, instead of looking for distractions from the facts. 

YouTube - Real Face of Hamas, the Murderer Of Palestinians
*Muslim army officer idd as primary shooter at Ft. Hood*

*The Ft. Hood co-conspirators*

*Media perspective in the Ft. Hood massacre*

*Silent screams and stifled statistics*

_Radical Muslims_ have infiltrated this country and they are out to take you and anyone who doesn't agree with their version of Islam down, either by stealth or in open attacks, such as the one at Fort Hood. And to them, it doesn't matter much whether the given "infidel" they wish to vanquish is a Jew, Christian or moderate Muslim. It doesn't matter where in "Dar al-Harb" we live either. Just the fact that we are not Muslims is excuse enough.

*What Happened at the Church of the Nativity in April 2002?*

*What has happened to Christians living in Israel and neighboring areas?*

----------


## ElyaKatz

BS"D

YouTube - George Galloway admits there's no Palestinian people

YouTube - Palestine - the great deception

YouTube - Joan Peters - From time immemorial (1 of 6 )
To those who have an open mind, and are on an honest quest for the truth, which does exist in spite of the extremely polemical nature of this debate, can go on to watch all of the videos featuring Ms. Peters.

----------


## revolutionisnow

30 Little Known Facts About Israel

1. Did you know that non-Jewish Israelis cannot buy or lease land in Israel? A Jew from any country in the world is guaranteed citizenship in Israel, while the Palestinians who have been there for centuries are oppressed and persecuted.

2. Did you know that instead of sewing an insignia on clothing to distinguish race (like the Germans did to the Jews before WW2), Palestinian license plates in Israel are color coded to distinguish Jews from non-Jews?

3. Did you know that East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights are all considered by the entire world community, including the United States and the United Nations, to be occupied territory and NOT part of the State of Israel?

4. Did you know that Israel allots 85% of the water resources for Jews, and the remaining 15% is divided among all Palestinians in the territories? For example in Hebron, 85% of the water is set aside for about 400 Jewish settlers, while the remaining 15% is distributed among Hebron's 120, 000 Palestinians?

5. Did you know that the United States awards Israel $5 billion in aid each year from American tax dollars?

6. Did you know that US aid to Israel ($1.8 billion annually in military aid alone) exceeds the aid the US grants to the entire African continent? This aid is used both to buy American weaponry and to buy arms made in Israel.

7. Did you know that Israel is awaiting an additional $4 billion worth of American military hardware, including new F-16s and Apache and Blackhawk helicopters. As Israel's main ally and supporter internationally, the United States is committed to maintaining the Jewish state's "qualitative edge" in weapons over its neighbours.

8. Did you know that the U.S. administration has notified Congress on numerous occasions that Israel has violated the rules on how US-supplied weapons are used? (In 1978, 1979 and 1982 during fighting in Lebanon, and once after Israel's bombing of an Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981.)

9. Did you know that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections from its sites?

10. Did you know that high-ranking military officers in the Israeli Defence Forces have admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war have been summarily executed by the Israeli forces?

11. Did you know that Israel blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a US warship in international waters (the USS Liberty), killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors and the US did nothing about it? (Imagine if an Islamic country like Iraq did this!)

12. Did you know that Israel stands in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council Resolutions?

13. Did you know that Israel is explicitly dedicated to the policy of maintaining a distinct Jewish character?

14. Did you know that Israel's current Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, was found by an Israeli court to be "personally and directly responsible" for the Sabra and Shatilla massacre in Lebanon where more than a thousand innocent Palestinian men, women, and children were axed to death or lined up and shot in cold blood?

15. Did you know that on May 20, 1990, a group of unarmed Palestinian labourers were lined up and murdered by an Israeli solider as they sat waiting for transportation back to Gaza? The terrified labourers who gathered in an area of southern Israel known as Rishon Lezion (known to Palestinians by its Arabic name Oyon Qara) handed their ID cards to the Israeli soldier. The soldiers ordered the distressed labourers to kneel down and face the ground and unexpectedly showered them with a barrage of bullets, killing seven and wounding many others. Needless to say, the soldier was not charged with any crime.

16. Did you know that until as recently as 1988, Israelis were permitted to run "Jews Only" job ads?

17. Did you know that the Israeli Foreign Ministry pays six US public relations firms to promote a "positive image" of Israel to the American public?

18. Did you know that Sharon's coalition government includes a party--Molodet--which advocates ethnic cleansing by openly calling for the forced expulsion of all Palestinians from the occupied territories?

19. Did you know that recently-declassified documents indicate that David Ben-Gurion approved of the forced expulsion of Arabs from all Palestinian territory in 1948?

20. Did you know that the former chief rabbi of Israel, Rabbi Ovadia Yossef, who is also a founder and spiritual leader of the religious Shas party (Israel's third largest political party) openly advocates a 'Final Solution' to annihilate the Palestinians? Speaking at the widely broadcast sermon marking the last Passover, he declared of the Palestinians: "The Lord shall return their deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them, devastate them and vanish them from this world. It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable."

21. Did you know that Palestinian refugees make up the largest portion of the refugee population in the world?

22. Did you know that Palestinian Christians are considered the "living stones" of Christianity because they are the direct descendants of the disciples of Jesus Christ? And the Palestinian Christians stand united with their Muslim brethren in the struggle against the Israeli occupation.

23. Did you know that despite a ban on torture by Israel's High Court of Justice, torture has continued unabated by Shin Bet interrogators on Palestinian prisoners?

24. Did you know that despite every Israeli attempt to disrupt Palestinian education, Palestinians have the highest ratio of PhDs per capita in the world?

25. Did you know that the right of self-determination is guaranteed to every human being under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights [December, 1948], yet Palestinians were/are expected to negotiate for this right under the Oslo Accords?

26. Did you know that despite what is widely perpetuated and written in the history books that the Arabs attacked Israel in the 1967 war, it was Israel who attacked the Arab countries first, capturing Jerusalem and the West Bank, and called the attack a pre-emptive strike?

27. Did you know that, as an occupying power, Israel has a particular responsibility under the Geneva Conventions to protect Palestinian civilians?

28. Did you know that, despite Ariel Sharon's public call for a unilateral ceasefire, Israeli soldiers have not stopped shooting, killing or bulldozing Palestinian homes? The most recent example of this is the murder of three innocent women who were shot by an Israeli tank as they sat in their tent!

29. Did you know that the Zionists have been trying to destroy Masjid al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock for the last 50 years by digging underground tunnels beneath the sites to weaken its foundation causing it to collapse?

30. Nelson Mandela called the Israeli government an apartheid regime, just like South Africa used to be.

http://www.missionislam.com/nwo/littlefacts.htm

----------


## Danke

> To those who have an open mind, and are on an honest quest for the truth, which does exist in spite of the extremely polemical nature of this debate, can go on to watch all of the videos featuring Ms. Peters.


http://www.serendipity.li/zionism/joan_peters.htm


"From Time Immemorial ... was a big scholarly-looking book with lots of footnotes, which purported to show that the Palestinians were all recent immigrants ... And it was very popular  it got literally hundreds of rave reviews, and no negative reviews: the Washington Post, the New York Times, everybody was just raving about it. Here was this book which proved that there were really no Palestinians! Of course, the implicit message was, if Israel kicks them all out there's no moral issue, because they're just recent immigrants who came in because the Jews had built up the country. ... That was the big intellectual hit for that year: Saul Bellow, Barbara Tuchman, everybody was talking about it as the greatest thing since chocolate cake. Well, one graduate student at Princeton, a guy named Norman Finkelstein, started reading through the book. He was interested in the history of Zionism, and as he read the book he was kind of surprised by some of the things it said. He's a very careful student, and he started checking the references  and it turned out that the whole thing was a hoax, it was completely faked: probably it had been put together by some intelligence agency ...

    Finkelstein's very persistent: he took a summer off and sat in the New York Public Library, *where he went through every single reference in the book  and he found a record of fraud that you cannot believe*. Well, the New York intellectual community is a pretty small place, and pretty soon everybody knew about this, everybody knew the book was a fraud ...

    Well, as soon as I heard that the book was going to come out in England, I immediately sent copies of Finkelstein's work to a number of British scholars and journalists who are interested in the Middle East  and they were ready. As soon as the book appeared, it was just demolished, it was blown out of the water. Every major journal, the Times Literary Supplement, the London Review, the Observer, everybody had a review saying, this doesn't even reach the level of nonsense, of idiocy. ...

    Anyhow, by that point the American intellectual community realized that the Peters book was an embarrassment, and it sort of disappeared  nobody talks about it anymore."

__________________________________________________  _______-


"For a lengthy discussion of the criticisms of Joan Peters' book see Paul Blair's six-part article published in 2002 beginning at http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2135. Blair writes in his Conclusion:

    From Time Immemorial is work of propaganda, with all the bad connotations that term carries. Peters' case rests upon distortion and fabrication. Time and again, she misconstrues sources in a tendentious manner. She cribs uncritically from partisan works. She conceals crucial calculations, and draws hard conclusions from tenuous evidence. She speculates wildly and without ground. She exaggerates figures and selects numbers to suit her thesis. She adduces evidence that in no way supports her claims, sometimes even omitting "inconvenient" portions of the citation. She invents contradictions in sources she wishes to discredit by quoting them out of context. She "forgets" undesirable numbers in her calculations. She ignores sources that cast doubt on her conclusions, even when she herself uses those sources for other purposes. She makes baseless insinuations and misleading claims. ..."

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Anyhow, by that point the American intellectual community realized that the Peters book was an embarrassment, and it sort of disappeared — nobody talks about it anymore."


There are weaknesses in Peter's book. At the same time, it is also admitted that her work has value, not the least of which is to raise serious questions which require more research. It definitely needs updating, or for some other, more skilled researcher to look into her claims. However, many of her claims have not been refuted, even by her worst critics:

*From Time Immemorial*

"One quote to consider: 'Barbara Tuchman, who called the book 'an historical event in itself', claimed that criticism of the book was a 'smear campaign' and attributed it to 'growing anti-Semitism' and 'long-term apologists of the Palestine Liberation Organization.' Elie Wiesel lent his name to a subsequent paperback, as did all of Peters's original endorsers."

*Mrs. Peters's Palestine: An Exchange*

I not only posted the video of Ms. Peter's interview with Zola Levitt, and with good reason. I am posing at least a four pronged argument based on the following disciplines, each of varying importance, with sub-disciplines within each major heading. They are:

Biblical claims
History, language and culture
Demography
International Law

*The Smoking Gun: Arab Immigration into Palestine, 1922-1931*

Thus, I posted the interview with Ms. Peters in context of the entire debate. My argument neither stands nor falls on her research. Hers is just another interesting source of information. She, at least, was willing to explore the question of the "Palestinians" with an open mind. This is the same reason I like to read the research of Dr. Francisco Gil-White. He originally leaned in the direction of the Arab narrative on the conflict. After doing his research, he realized he had been wrong.

Human nature being what it is, I suffer no illusions that any one person or source has all the answers. In fact, though I argue that there is no such historical Arab people called the "Palestinians", I am also very open to the research of Tzvi Misinai who contends that up to 90% of the Arabs who remained in Eretz Israel, in spite of the demands by Arab leaders that they flee, are of at least partial Jewish ancestry, which would explain why they are reviled by the Muslim world around Eretz Israel, and why G-d has ensured that they remain. The possibility of these people being of "cryto-Jewish" origins is not a far stretch, considering the plight of Spanish and Portuegese "crypto-Jews", and the tendency of Muslims to force conversions on minorities or otherwise disenfranchised people within their midst.

Thus, my challenge stands: 

Who is Palestinian? Where is Palestine?? Who Named Palestine???

*The Identity Of The Land*

Bring your proofs that there was an ancient Arab people called the "Palestinians", whose claims to Eretz Israel trump those of the truly ancient Jewish people (we've been around as a distinct people for as long as the Chinese). The Jewish people have lived in Judea, Samaria, the Galilee and Jerusalem since time immemorial, as recognized by religious leaders, historians and politicians, most hardly the friends of the Jews, throughout history. No Arab people can make that claim. It is, as my links show, more complicated than the mere question of recent demography or even international law, which only recognized what was already self-evident. It's a question of history, language and culture. Even the Quran recognizes that the Land of Israel belongs to the Jews.

----------


## Danke

"Peters' distortions apply, not simply to minor issues, but to the central pieces of evidence for the principal contentions of her book. Her claim that the majority of Arabs in pre-state Israel were recent arrivals is false, as is her related assertion about the vast majority of Palestinian refugees. Her contention that Arab immigrants were filling the places Jews had cleared for other Jews is untrue. Her view that the League of Nations Mandate was intended to make Palestine into a Jewish state has no valid basis, nor is is true that the British created the Transjordan in violation of the Mandate. Peters' claim of a nineteenth-century Jewish majority is misleading at best; her thesis that the first Jewish settlements lured significant numbers of Arabs into Palestine is fiction. 

...But Peters wishes to do more; she wants to destroy, definitively, the claims of Palestinian nationalism--and she wishes to do so without rejecting Jewish nationalism. Thus her focus on demography; the essence of her case is: "The Arabs are latecomers to Palestine and so have less right to be there than the Jews." But torture the numbers as she will, she cannot escape the fact that the Arabs in Palestine in the late nineteenth century outnumbered the Jews. Hence, she contends that those Arabs had no national "identity," that they considered themselves Ottoman subjects or Southern Syrians, but certainly not Palestinians. And if today's Arabs wish to live in a Palestinian state, they should move to Jordan.

Peters' fundamental premise, then, is *ethnic nationalism*. Why else waste ink trying to show, in essence, that the Palestinians are not the descendants of the Canaanites, who inhabited the land before the Israelites arrived? Such arguments are utterly pointless. Ethnicity entitles no one to a state--not Arabs, and not Jews either. The right of *sovereignty* does not reside in numerical superiority or "peoplehood" or a "continuous presence in the land" or "ethnic self-determination"; *it rests on a government's respect for individual rights*. Once such a government exists, no ethnic separatist has any valid claim against it.

*Peters' book does not simply distort the facts, then; it is a philosophically repugnant enterprise from the start. Ethnic nationalism has produced most of the wars in the last half century*; Arab opposition to Israel rests largely on the same foundation. The doctrine of ethnic self-determination has no valid intellectual basis; given the bloodshed it has caused it deserves not respect but unequivocal repudiation. "

----------


## revolutionisnow

YouTube - Palestine Pre-1947

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Ethnic nationalism has produced most of the wars in the last half century[/SIZE][/B][/B]; Arab opposition to Israel rests largely on the same foundation. The doctrine of ethnic self-determination has no valid intellectual basis; given the bloodshed it has caused it deserves not respect but unequivocal repudiation. "


Please be so kind as to link your quotes so I can examine your source.

If you are so repulsed by ethnic nationalism, might want to spend more time criticizing Saudi Arabia and other Arab/Muslim countries.

The fact of the matter is, if a nation wants to found itself on principles other than the ethnic pluralism embraced by America, they have every right to do so. To enforce ethnic or religious pluralism on the world, when the raison d'etre of so many nations in the old world is their ethnic and religious-centrism, is another form of coerced utopianism.

Not every nation is willing to allow the "melting pot" principle as one of their foundational precepts. The purpose of this thread is not to discuss the relative merits or lack thereof, in an ethnic or religious state for the Jewish people. Frankly, given the abysmal treatment of the Jewish people by the nations of the world over the last 2000 years since we have not enjoyed national sovereignty, which affords us the right to defend ourselves, the question is a moot point. There will be a state where Jews are safe from the harassment of non-Jews and that's pretty much the end of that discussion, because Jews will have it no other way.

A more balanced perspective on Peter's work is in order. You discredit it simply because the premise bothers you, which is no more scholarly or intellectual than what she is accused of. Her work is not the final word, but it raises valid questions that must be pursued by others more skilled in historical, investigative and statistical research.

Peter's work, as I have said, is not my entire argument. I still see no members willing to produce evidence of a "Palestinian" nation prior to 1964.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> YouTube - Palestine Pre-1947


I never said there weren't Arabs living in Eretz Israel during the Mandate period. The fact is, they considered themselves Arabs, not "Palestinians". The term "Palestinian" was co-opted by Arab leadership, as a political ploy by Nasser in 1964, then Arafat in 1967.

There is no way, as in any photo or video, to prove much. They are interesting, a good supplement, but they are not definitive proof unless accompanied by a legal affidavit given under oath, and enforceable by a competent court of jurisdiction, in the case of perjury. Even then, they are evidence, but not the final word on a subject.

Many of the people in western clothing in this video could just as easily have been Jews as Arabs. The people in traditional Arab clothing could have been living in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Morocco, or any Arab/Muslim nation. There is no way for you to prove these people are Arabs from Eretz Israel. Even if they are, it still doesn't counter my claim..."Palestinians" were always Jews prior to 1948, who then came to be called "Israelis". 

The largest English language daily in Israel, *The Jerusalem Post* was called "The Palestine Post" prior to Israel's independence. The name was changed in 1950 to The Jerusalem post. 

There is a shot of the paper's masthead as "The Palestine Post" in the video you've shown. The paper was not run by the opponents of Zionism...which would have been the Arab leadership. I've posted that very image several times to prove my point, that "Palestinian" referred to Jews, not Arabs in pre-state Eretz Israel. Furthermore, the legal name of the paper is still "The Palestine Post". Though the target audience is wide, the newspaper has always been considered Zionist in nature, sometimes left of center, at other times right of center,depending on the current ownership.

There were a lot of refugees all over the world during the post WWII years. Many new countries came into being, not only Israel. The only refugees who haven't been absorbed into their new homes among their own countrymen are the Arabs, many of whom were recent immigrants into Eretz Israel from neighboring countries. 

YouTube - Silent Exodus of Jewish Refugees

----------


## ElyaKatz

BS"D




> 30 Little Known Facts About Israel
> 
> 1. Did you know that non-Jewish Israelis cannot buy or lease land in Israel? A Jew from any country in the world is guaranteed citizenship in Israel, while the Palestinians who have been there for centuries are oppressed and persecuted.


*Facts:*

*BACKGROUNDER: Land, the Palestinian Authority, and Israel*




> 2. Did you know that instead of sewing an insignia on clothing to distinguish race (like the Germans did to the Jews before WW2), Palestinian license plates in Israel are color coded to distinguish Jews from non-Jews?


*Facts:*

*Red plates* = Israeli police cars (marked + unmarked + some private cars owned by coppers)

*Black plates* = Israeli military vehicles (includes a lot of civilian type cars driven by soldiers)

*Yellow plates* = Bog standard plates, used by any Israeli citizen whether Arab, Jew or Christian who lives within the Green line (pre 1967 borders)

*Blue plates* = (these are the ones that cause a lot of confusion) Non-Israeli citizens (Palastinians) living in the disputed territories e.g. Gaza and the West Bank.

The only discrimination is that Israeli residents of Gaza and the West Bank (settlers) use Yellow plates and not Blue plates.

The common fallacy is that license plate colour depends solely upon the drivers religion. This is totally untrue. An Arab Israeli owned vehicle and a Jewish Israeli owned vehicle have exactly the same plate color.


*San Diego Professor Gary Fields' Orwellian Language*

_"Fields also falsely claims that Israel has created a system of segregation where freedom of movement is based upon religious identity. Though he does not provide any specifics, making verification of the assertion difficult, he might be alluding to the familiar propaganda line that in Israel Jews and non-Jews are given different color license plates. This is false. While there are certain West Bank roads open only to drivers with yellow Israeli license plates, (all Israelis  Jewish, Muslim and Christian  have yellow plates), Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza Strip have blue plates. Needless to say, it is not religious discrimination for a nation to have a particular license plate distinct from those used by non-citizens. In short, Israeli Muslims and Christians have the same freedom of movement as Israeli Jews."_




> 3. Did you know that East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights are all considered by the entire world community, including the United States and the United Nations, to be occupied territory and NOT part of the State of Israel?


For a legal discussion of the accurate usage of the term "occupied" as opposed to the political usage of this term please read the following:

*Why Is Israels Presence in the Territories Still Called Occupation?* by Avinoam Sharon

_"The term occupation is often employed politically, without regard for its general or legal meaning. The use of the term occupation in political rhetoric reduces complex situations of competing claims and rights to predefined categories of right and wrong. The term occupation is also employed in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to advance the argument that Israel bears ultimate responsibility for the welfare of the Palestinians, while limiting or denying Israels right to defend itself against Palestinian terror, and relieving the Palestinian side of responsibility for its own actions and their consequences. The term is also employed  as part of a general assault upon Israels legitimacy, in the context of a geopolitical narrative that has little to do with Israels status as an occupier under international law."_




> 4. Did you know that Israel allots 85% of the water resources for Jews, and the remaining 15% is divided among all Palestinians in the territories? For example in Hebron, 85% of the water is set aside for about 400 Jewish settlers, while the remaining 15% is distributed among Hebron's 120, 000 Palestinians?


*Facts:*

*Amnesty Water Report Waterboards the Truth*




> 5. Did you know that the United States awards Israel $5 billion in aid each year from American tax dollars?
> 
> 6. Did you know that US aid to Israel ($1.8 billion annually in military aid alone) exceeds the aid the US grants to the entire African continent? This aid is used both to buy American weaponry and to buy arms made in Israel.


*Facts:* 

This aid is not a charitable contribution. No nation on earth does anything in the realm of foreign policy that does not, first and foremost, serve its own interests. The US is buying something that it wants or needs from Israel with that aid. US industries want the aid to continue. But I have already made my position clear on foreign aid, to any nation. Business relationships are one thing. Aid is another.


*What Israel does for the U.S.* 




> 7. Did you know that Israel is awaiting an additional $4 billion worth of American military hardware, including new F-16s and Apache and Blackhawk helicopters. As Israel's main ally and supporter internationally, the United States is committed to maintaining the Jewish state's "qualitative edge" in weapons over its neighbours.


I suppose you would rather see the mullahs of Iran, or the dictator of Syria, or Egypt, or the Sheikhs of Saudia Arabia have that qualitative edge??




> 8. Did you know that the U.S. administration has notified Congress on numerous occasions that Israel has violated the rules on how US-supplied weapons are used? (In 1978, 1979 and 1982 during fighting in Lebanon, and once after Israel's bombing of an Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981.)


As for the US Administration, that's like the pot calling the kettle black. The US Administration has violated US law in dealing with terrorists before they have given up terrorism. 

I am glad to know that our congressmen know what a joke the UN has become. It's become the forum for every petty and not so petty dictator in the world. Congres represents the will of the American people RIN. If the will of Congress is any indication in this matter, then apparently, enough Americans are still wiser than you. I thank G-d for that. As for the bombing of the nuclear reactor in Iraq, there would be many more dead Americans if Saddam Hussein had possession of nuclear weapons.




> 9. Did you know that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections from its sites?


Israel is a responsible nation. Whatever weapons Israel possesses, she is committed to using them according to international law, and in a defensive posture, rather than an aggressive posture, Islamic lies nothwithstanding.




> 10. Did you know that high-ranking military officers in the Israeli Defence Forces have admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war have been summarily executed by the Israeli forces?


Sources please, so we can examine the veracity of these claims.




> 11. Did you know that Israel blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a US warship in international waters (the USS Liberty), killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors and the US did nothing about it? (Imagine if an Islamic country like Iraq did this!)


I have posted my response to this previously, in the book by John Loftus and Mark Aarons, *The Secret War Against the Jews*. 




> 12. Did you know that Israel stands in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council Resolutions?


That, and how many UN Resolutions against the beasts who are oppressing the Christians of Darfur??

*Who's Committing Crimes against Humanity?*

_"The United Nations, which has crafted more resolutions against Israel than any other country in the world, including North Korea, Cuba, Communist China and Iran, also called for investigations into possible Israeli war crimes. Missing was any U.N. outrage when Hamas terrorists fired mortars at Israelis near a U.N. school or when Hamas stole food and other humanitarian aid meant for Palestinians during the Gaza operation."_ 




> 13. Did you know that Israel is explicitly dedicated to the policy of maintaining a distinct Jewish character?


_Ooooh._ 

Did you know that the League of Nations entrusted the Jewish people with creating a _Jewish_ national home in Western Palestine at a minimum?? And if we all move there, then revolutionisnow can finally be happy not having to accidentally eat any kosher food! How's that for a perk to stop posting all these idiotic antisemtic diatribes against this little, itty bitty nation no bigger than New Jersey??

Did you also know that in many Muslim nations, my favorite example being Saudi Arabia, foreigners can't own property or businesses without a Saudi partner, can't even bring a Bible into Saudi Arabia or have even a private Christian, Jewish or other non-Muslim worship service? Why don't you take that up as your cause? What have you to do with the Arab Israeli conflict? Jews don't prevent Christians from worshipping in Israel. Doesn't it bother you that Coptic Christians in Egypt are being seriously persecutedf? That Christian businessmen who go to Saudi Arabia to help manage their oil industry can't even bring a Christian Bible in their private luggage or hold a private prayer service in their homes?? 




> 14. Did you know that Israel's current Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, was found by an Israeli court to be "personally and directly responsible" for the Sabra and Shatilla massacre in Lebanon where more than a thousand innocent Palestinian men, women, and children were axed to death or lined up and shot in cold blood?


Fact: This is patently false.

Following is another interesting article on that episode:

*Maligning Sharon*

Excerpt:

"These accusations too are unfounded. We have no doubt that no conspiracy or plot was entered into between anyone from the Israeli political echelon or from the military echelon in the I.D.F. and the Phalangists, with the aim of perpetrating atrocities in the camps.... No intention existed on the part of any Israeli element to harm the non-combatant population in the camps."

For a lot of reasons, Sharon is not my favorite Israeli leader either.

Something to consider re the lies surround the Sabra and Shatilla massacres:

YouTube - Brigitte Gabriel part 2



> 15. Did you know that on May 20, 1990, a group of unarmed Palestinian labourers were lined up and murdered by an Israeli solider as they sat waiting for transportation back to Gaza? The terrified labourers who gathered in an area of southern Israel known as Rishon Lezion (known to Palestinians by its Arabic name Oyon Qara) handed their ID cards to the Israeli soldier. The soldiers ordered the distressed labourers to kneel down and face the ground and unexpectedly showered them with a barrage of bullets, killing seven and wounding many others. Needless to say, the soldier was not charged with any crime.


*Israeli Held in Massacre Says He Sought Revenge for Rape*


I'm not posting that link to justify Popper's reaction. But there is clearly another side to the story. The young man was said to have been deranged. It happens in America too, as we well know. He claims he was gang raped by a group of Arab Muslims at the age of 12. 




> 16. Did you know that until as recently as 1988, Israelis were permitted to run "Jews Only" job ads?


The two populations aren't getting along that well, are they? There is a war going on. No other nation on earth is expected to "employ" a  people which has declared war on them.  One must remember, the Middle East is not the Mid-West. And to quote Steven Plaut, the Middle East conflict is not a marital spat. In spite of all the tension, Israel has Arab lawyers, Knesseth members and a Supreme Court Judge, so it can't be that bad.




> 17. Did you know that the Israeli Foreign Ministry pays six US public relations firms to promote a "positive image" of Israel to the American public?


And so, they should pay American PR firms to promote a negative image? You don't think Arabs do the same thing? How hypocritical.




> 18. Did you know that Sharon's coalition government includes a party--Molodet--which advocates ethnic cleansing by openly calling for the forced expulsion of all Palestinians from the occupied territories?


Israel also allows Arab political parties which advocate the eradication of the Jewish state. 




> 19. Did you know that recently-declassified documents indicate that David Ben-Gurion approved of the forced expulsion of Arabs from all Palestinian territory in 1948?


Source please. I checked the site you linked directly. They offer no further proof.




> 20. Did you know that the former chief rabbi of Israel, Rabbi Ovadia Yossef, who is also a founder and spiritual leader of the religious Shas party (Israel's third largest political party) openly advocates a 'Final Solution' to annihilate the Palestinians? Speaking at the widely broadcast sermon marking the last Passover, he declared of the Palestinians: "The Lord shall return their deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them, devastate them and vanish them from this world. It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable."


Yeah. He's not very diplomatic. But then, George Washington said something similar once, when faced with jihadis who were attempting to blackmail America:

*Letter to Marquis de LaFayette*

_"George Washington's attitude toward the Barbary blackmail was expressed in a statement made to Lafayette "Would to Heaven we had a navy to reform those enemies to mankind or crush them into nonexistence". He is further recorded as having said that "..he felt the highest disgrace" in seeing America "become tributary to such banditti who might for half the sum that is paid them be exterminated from the earth."_

*Terrorism In Early America*

Might be because of the behavior of the Islamic terrorists, which the Western powers have coerced Israel into allowing in their midst, from Yasir Arafat onwards. Yes, the same guy who provoked "Black September" in Jordan, and the Sabra & Shatilla massacres in Lebanon. 

Between the years of *1993 and 1997*, the level of Israeli deaths via terrorism has increased dramatically. So, you expect R' Ovadia Yosef to advocate throwing roses at them, when your own founding fathers advocated annihilation, for piracy overseas, not a constant barrage of suicide bombings, axe attacks on children, sniper attacks on the roads, rocks being thrown down on Jewish worshippers during our holidays as we pray at the Western Wall?

Daniel Pipes has another interesting article on the effects of Oslo:

*Peace Process or War Process?*

As for Israelis, they watched as Palestinian rage spiraled upward, inflicting unprecedented violence on them; the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs reports that more Israelis were killed by Palestinian terrorists in the five years after the Oslo accords than in the fifteen years preceding it. If the two hands in the Rabin-Arafat handshake symbolized Oslo's early hopes, the two bloody hands of a young Palestinian male who had just lynched Israeli reservists in Ramallah in October 2000 represented its dismal end. 


R' Ovadia Yosef was not referring to all Arabs, but to those who's goal it is to destroy Israel and murder every Jew in the nation. Perhaps we should remember what George Washington said about murderous, lawless criminals??


*Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing*

or this:

*Teen killed in West Bank terror attack*

*Children Intentionally Targeted*

Here are a couple of salient excerpts:

_"Terrorists ambushed the car of Tali Hatuel, who was 9 months pregnant, and shot her and her four young daughters, aged 2, 7, 9 and 11. It was daylight and the terrorists obviously knew they were killing four small children because they shot them all at point blank range."

"A Palestinian sniper took aim at 10 month old Shalhevet Pass, who was sitting in her stroller. She was fatally shot in the head. This was hardly an accident. She was the target, even though her father was standing right beside her."_




> 21. Did you know that Palestinian refugees make up the largest portion of the refugee population in the world?


Gone over this so many times. Who's fault is this? Israel had at least as many refugees who did not voluntarily leave their homes of thousands of years in Muslim nations, but who were thrown out of their homes in Arab lands. Israel, a financially strapped nation, rehabilitated and absorbed these refugees. The Arab/Muslim world, with 22 nations, larger in area than Europe, and much in the way of oil wealth, might consider discussing the diamond studded cars their Sheikhs luxuriate in, and assist these people in resettling so they can begin a decent life?




> 22. Did you know that Palestinian Christians are considered the "living stones" of Christianity because they are the direct descendants of the disciples of Jesus Christ? And the Palestinian Christians stand united with their Muslim brethren in the struggle against the Israeli occupation.


Balderdash. Some of them might be the descendants of the early Christians, certainly much less provable than the fact that the Jews of today are direct descendants of the Jews who lived in Eretz Israel during the Roman occupation and subsequent destruction.

Re this claim of solidarity, it is extremely suspect considering the source, a Muslim website. The Christian Arabs in the region are a persecuted minority. Bethlehem used to have an 80% Christian population. They are now down to 20% since Oslo, directly due to Muslim persecution. I have posted my facts on this previously. In my research, which has been posted, I have found Christians who have stated that the Israeli military administration was paradise compared to what they suffer under the PA, which is really the PLO.




> 23. Did you know that despite a ban on torture by Israel's High Court of Justice, torture has continued unabated by Shin Bet interrogators on Palestinian prisoners?


According to Walid Shoebat, Israeli "torture" is nothing compared to what the PA does to suspected collaborators, or even men who won't carry out a particular "assignment". If America ever finds itself surrounded by Muslim fanatics determined to take over the US, those opponents using the Islamic tactic of "taqqiya" might force America to do similar things in order to protect innocent people.

If Israel would simply execute these criminals, they would have no need of such things as interrogations or torture. I refer to George Washington's quote, cited earlier or the quickest and most effective solution.




> 24. Did you know that despite every Israeli attempt to disrupt Palestinian education, Palestinians have the highest ratio of PhDs per capita in the world?


*Palestinian Education: Schools for hate* 

Your source left out what type of education Israel is wishing to disrupt. Since Israel built many of the schools the Arabs in the West Bank now enjoy, I doubt Israel is trying to disrupt education in general. Just incitement to suicide bombing, that sort of thing. After all, it is against the Olslo Accords...and is really not very helpful overall.




> 25. Did you know that the right of self-determination is guaranteed to every human being under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights [December, 1948], yet Palestinians were/are expected to negotiate for this right under the Oslo Accords?


Then you must define that "right of self-determination". It doesn't give every subgroup of people the right to a sovereign nation of their own, carved out of another people's land, which the Balfour Declaration and the Palestine Mandate both recognize "Western Palestine" to be for the Jewish people. These are very powerful documents. As I've stated, the Palestine Mandate is irreversible. It may be that the Jewish people can voluntarily give up the right to Judea and Samaria, (and I'm not certain of that) but they can't be legally forced into it (I am certain of that).

Did you know that under American law, no American legislator or politician is supposed to have contact with any terrorist organization until that terrorist organization a) gives up terrorism completely and b) fights terrorism. Our American presidents, legislators/politicians have been operating in contradistinction of US law since President Reagan.

There is no "universal right" to declare unrelenting warfare on another nation just because it exists, which is what the Arab world has done to Israel now, since 1948. And then when they lose, they want to turn back the clock so they can accept the terms they originally rejected and went to war over. It does't work that way. The Arab world regularly attacks Israel's civilian population. Thus, while Israel must take necessary precautions to prevent undue civilian casualties, they are not under any more of an obligation than any other nation in this regard when there is an "armed conflict" which there most certainly is at the moment.




> 26. Did you know that despite what is widely perpetuated and written in the history books that the Arabs attacked Israel in the 1967 war, it was Israel who attacked the Arab countries first, capturing Jerusalem and the West Bank, and called the attack a pre-emptive strike?


The history books I've read make it clear that Egypt had imposed a shipping blockade on Israel. That is an act of war. 

*Part I: The 1967 Arab-Israeli War*

_"Nasser evicted United Nations peacekeeping forces along the Israeli borders with Gaza and the Sinai Peninsula, and replaced them with his army. He blockaded Israeli shipping into the Red Sea, and sent Soviet MIG jets to buzz southern Israel. Israeli author Gershom Gorenberg says the mood among Israeli Jews â barely a generation away from the Holocaust â was of utter panic. "_ 

Another interesting set of varying viewpoints, can, of course be found at Wikipedia. The neutrality of the article is disputed, but it's still an interesting read:

*Six-Day War*

_"Abba Eban, contended this was enough to start the war. Eban said, "From May the 24th onward, the question who started the war or who fired the first shot became momentously irrelevant. There is no difference in civil law between murdering a man by slow strangulation or killing him by a shot in the head... From the moment at which the blockade was posed, active hostilities had commenced, and Israel owed Egypt nothing of her charger rights."_




> 27. Did you know that, as an occupying power, Israel has a particular responsibility under the Geneva Conventions to protect Palestinian civilians?



*HAMAS, THE GAZA WAR AND ACCOUNTABILITY UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW* by Colonel Richard Kemp CBE

Another excellent article by Professor Avi Bell, *International Law and Gaza: The Assault on Israel's Right to Self-Defense* is a good read on the subject.




> 28. Did you know that, despite Ariel Sharon's public call for a unilateral ceasefire, Israeli soldiers have not stopped shooting, killing or bulldozing Palestinian homes? The most recent example of this is the murder of three innocent women who were shot by an Israeli tank as they sat in their tent!


Sources please...I did a google search. There are some obviously anti-Israel sites which are quoting your 30 points, including this particular claim, but no one is sourcing the original story. Verification....

There are numerous hot conflicts going on between Israel and parts of the PA administered territories, especially but not limited to Gaza. Each case must be examined on its own merits. As has been abundantly demonstrated in my refutation of the above claims, just because this particular site you have posted says something, does not make it true.




> 29. Did you know that the Zionists have been trying to destroy Masjid al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock for the last 50 years by digging underground tunnels beneath the sites to weaken its foundation causing it to collapse?


Did you know that Muslims have nearly unlimited access to the Temple Mount, while Jews and Christians can only go up on the Mount for a total of 3 hours a day, divided into morning and evening sessions? If either Jews or Christians are caught moving their lips in prayer, or if they bring any religious article on the Mount, such as a sacred book or a prayer shawl, they will be roughly grabbed, dragged off the Temple Mount and possibly jailed.

Did you know that the Wakf has made a huge Mosque underneath the Temple Mount, without the assistance and guidance of qualified engineers, and as a result the southern retaining wall of the Temple Mount is beginning to crumble? They also dug up countless archeological artifacts in their excavations, and left them in a trash heap outside the Mount area. Legally, historical sites such as the Temple Mount are supposed to be excavated with the assistance of archeologists, so as not to lose those potentially precious, ancient archeological artifacts. But the Wakf pretty much just bulldozes ahead, and worries about consequences later. 

Read more here:

*Collapsing the Dome and Al-Aksa may trigger a war.*

Excerpts:

_"In fact, the Muslim Wakf (religious administrative authority) has been carrying out secret excavations under the Temple Mount, to invent and reinforce their own religious claims while disposing of all Jewish artifacts - some from the First and Second Temple periods.

Israeli engineers warned the Wakf that they were weakening the supporting walls of the Temple Mount, including those of the Dome of the Rock and Al-Aksa Mosque. A dangerous bulge was spotted on a major retaining wall of the Temple Mount. Yet, the Wakf has continued to undermine the foundations until today."_




> 30. Nelson Mandela called the Israeli government an apartheid regime, just like South Africa used to be.


Yeah, well, Mandela is no doubt a hero to his countrymen. He can also be naive.
*
The Full Nelson* by Daniel Mandel

It's an interesting and thoughtful article.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> 30 Little Known Facts About Israel
> http://www.missionislam.com/nwo/littlefacts.htm


Second response: These factoids are not so secret as your source would imply. They are mostly false, having been refuted many times over. I've done some of my own refuting, but someone with a huge library on the Middle East at their disposal, or with several days in which to do research would not doubt find even better refutations than I.

Following is a link with some interesting sets of facts for you to consider. I don't take responsibility for spelling and grammar errors below, as it is copied from the link directly.

*Did You Know?*

Did you know that Arabs started their massacres of the Jews in the holy land long before the (so called ) "occupation" excuse, such as the Hebron massacre on 1929?
Did you know that Jerusalem, both east and west, is considered by the western society (not including UN countries, those that are hijacked by Arab Muslim oil terror lobby) , to be part of Israel?
Did you know that 800,000 Jewish refugees fleing persecution from from Arab lands were absorbed completely inside Israel while Arab leaders ORDERED their people to flee the reestablished UN's mandate=Israel in 1948, but never took care of them?
Did you know that Palestinian cruel leaders have been denying improvement for their people for that "goal" of trying to gain world's sympathy, just as they sacrifice their children for that?
Did you know the United States awards billions in aid each year to most Arab nations including those that abuse & use it for terrorism?
Did you know that Iran is not the only leading Muslim radical country that is in process of nuclear weapons?
Did you know that Iran refuses to sign the nuclear nonproliferation treaty and bars international inspections from its sites, and Palestinians SIDED with it/them as they sided with Butcher Saddam?
Did you know that Palestinian & Syrian Arabs both occupied territories of two sovereign nation Lebanon causing chaos there as well?
Did you know that Israel has for decades successfully prevented enemies of the West that try to kill NON Muslim Arabs including Israelis?
Did you know that non-Muslim Palestinian minority suffer also under Muslim Palestinian Arabs?
Did you know that while Palestinian license plates in Israel are color coded ONLY to distinguish Arab ISRAELIS from Arab so called: "PALESTINIANS", but LYING "Palestinian" typical PROPAGANDA tries to make it look like a racial "thing"? How can it be "racial" when Israeli Arabs have the same number plates as Israeli Jews.
Did you know that Israel successfully confiscates bank accounts, businesses of Militant Muslim terrorists ANTI west?
Did you know that the first most powerful lobby in the UN is Arab MUSLIM BLOCK?
Did you know that Arabs started all the wars since DEFYING UN's offer 1948?
Did you know that today, Palestinian Arabs UNFORTUNATELY pay their price for attacking Israel and they're still too arrogant not to follow the peace way (at least) as Egypt & Jordan did successfully?
Did you know that while Israelis have only taken part in defending lives, (and before 1948 bombing buildings asking the British to evacuate) whereas Arab regional leaders including 'palestinians' have always killed MAINLY the innocent?
Did you know that Palestinians still haven't retracted that lie they've published on Muhammad Al Dura trying to blame Israel when in fact he was REALLY killed by other Palestinians?
WHO REALLY KILLED Mohammed al DurAs well as so many other lies like classical "Jenin" etc. though they've been already so embarrassingly exposed?
Did you know the horrific history of Palestinian militant bloodshed they've done in Lebanon? The Massacre by Palestinians: Damour (and some estimated it as many as 300,000 victims in all of Lebanon)
Did you know that Palestinian do not want you to know the truth about Sabrah & Shatilah?
Did you know that the Palestinians pay many of American public relation firms to promote their lies to Americans?
Did you know that while most extreme in Israel, a tiny minority, might advocate only expelling Palestinians (that won't go along with control) from territories, whereas Palestinian ARAB Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc. PLEDGE & do kill JUST ALL AVERAGE ISRAELI MEN WOMEN & CHILDREN?
Did you know that the Palestinians have NOT YET accepted Israel's existence?
Did you know that Palestinian Arabs have bogus "historic -- conceptions" including their self denial of origin of "Palestinian Arabs" no earlier than 1918 when immigrated from neighboring countries?
Did you know that Arab Palestinian refugees Inventors, creators (!) & leaders deny still aid to their people, they prefer it still to be the largest portion of the refugee population in the world just to gain sympathy?

You have fun with that. I noticed you still haven't managed to prove there existed an Arab people who called themselves and were referred to as "Palestinians" prior to 1964. I'm indulging myself in responding to your continued off-topic posts. I had some other brain-work I am in the midst of, and needed to rest from it a bit. This is a great diversion for me. 

However, if I were a moderator here, I would have deleted all your off-topic BS by now.

----------


## revolutionisnow

Why wasn't Birobidzhan a legitimate homeland for the Jewish people?

YouTube - XL Report: Birobidzhan

YouTube - BIROBIDJAN - JEWISH AUTONOMOUS REGION

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Why wasn't Birobidzhan a legitimate homeland for the Jewish people?
> 
> YouTube - XL Report: Birobidzhan
> 
> YouTube - BIROBIDJAN - JEWISH AUTONOMOUS REGION


Birobidjan was a flop of an experiment, wasn't it though? Almost laughable, it was so pitiful. It seems to me the failure of Birobidjan ot "stick" to the Jewish soul is another testament to the Divinity of the Torah.

Israel's claims for a Jewish national home are what might be called historical demography, weighing heavily towards history. This was discussed in one of my links. I'll find it sometime for you again. Eretz Israel is in our souls. There will never be the national impetus for us all to settle anywhere but in Eretz Israel. 

Didn't you read about the "Uganda Plan"? Even so-called "secular Jews" walked out on Herzl during one of the Zionist Congresses. His intentions were good. He was trying to prevent a massive loss of Jewish life by proposing a large part of Uganda that was not currently not being used, as a temporary way station on the way back to Zion. (The the name of a hill in Jerusalem.)

It's like I've said several times, the case of Israel is very similar to what happened in Spain. The Muslims took over Spain, and actually developed a beautiful, advanced culture. But they had no right to steal the Spanish homeland from the Spaniards. The Spaniards, never forgetting who they were and that Spain was their historical, national homeland, slowly, through fire and blood, won their homeland back from the Muslims. It took 800 years to complete the job.

The Jewish people too, lost their homeland to a series of invaders who had no right to Eretz Israel. The Jews came back as they could manage, living in grinding poverty and suffering terrible discrimination, hanging on in spite of various legal and practical devices on the part of the usurpers to keep Jews out. It took 1200 years for the Jewish people to do what it took the Spanish 800 years. Another big difference: The Jewish people reclaimed the Jewish national homeland, Eretz Israel, through re-purchasing of the land from whoever would sell, and at pretty much whatever the asking price was, however inflated. The Jewish people did their best not to disrupt Arab lives, knowing that most were not personally at fault for Jewish misfortune. There was a conscious effort to settle down peacefully next to the different peoples who were also residing in Eretz Israel.

I have said this before, and will say it again: Two conditions are necessary for a nation to have the right to reclaim their stolen national homeland. 1) They must still exist as a separate, distinct people connected to that land and 2) They must not have relinquished their claim to that historic homeland.

The Jewish people are unique in history, in maintaining our separate national character throughout 2000 years of inhumane exile, with the majority of our members not living within the boundaries of our historic homeland. if those two conditions exist, there is no "statute of limitations" on a nation regaining their stolen national home.

The Written and Oral Law, so reviled by many non-Jews, and so misunderstood, is largely responsible for this. These were our portable national boundaries. Up until the last several generations, the vast majority of Jews lived within the confines of those boundaries. Those who refused, whether the original "Jewish Christians", or Karaites, Tzadokim or Boethusians, have disappeared from the pages of history as part of the Jewish people.

Probably why antisemites hate the Oral Law so much, and why some even hate or are dismissive of the Written Law. The obedience to both guarantees our survival as Jews, something no antisemite wants.

----------


## Dieseler

I hear the Argentinians lucked out when their homeland was rejected.
Woosh, can still hear the sigh.

----------


## revolutionisnow

> Birobidjan was a flop of an experiment, wasn't it though? Almost laughable, it was so pitiful. 
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Probably why antisemites hate the Oral Law so much, and why some even hate or are dismissive of the Written Law. The obedience to both guarantees our survival as Jews, something no antisemite wants.


Why do you think it was a flop? Not enough billions of foreign aid? And why is it a flop? Seemed like a pretty peaceful place to me, no rockets, no fences or walls. I don't think I heard anything about every man and woman being forced into service eithe. I never even knew it existed until recently. But that would be my goal, aspire to be like Switzerland, a quite, neutral existence, someplace where they don't have much news about them either way. 

Also what is your opinion of the Jews that were inhabiting Palestine, many of whom which seem to agree with this man? 

YouTube - Jewish Rabbi: Zionists are Godless Criminal Thugs

What about these groups claims that the creation of the state of Israel conflicts with the Torah?
http://www.nkusa.org/ http://jewsagainstzionism.com/



As far as Oral law/written law, anything outside of the OT is man made. Why would you use man made religion to contradict the Laws of Moses? If you do not accept those laws why not admit it is a different religion altogether? Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Amish, etc are all religions semi based on Christianity, but they do not hide the fact that they deviate from mainstream road.

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## ElyaKatz

> Why do you think it was a flop? Not enough billions of foreign aid? And why is it a flop?


I already said why. There is no historical relevance between the Jewish people Birobidzhan. 




> Seemed like a pretty peaceful place to me, no rockets, no fences or walls. I don't think I heard anything about every man and woman being forced into service eithe. I never even knew it existed until recently. But that would be my goal, aspire to be like Switzerland, a quite, neutral existence, someplace where they don't have much news about them either way.


The mission that G-d has given to the Jewish people is centered in Eretz Israel. In order for you to understand the reason why we even exist and what our purpose on this earth is, you would have to read about Judaism with an open mind and a kind heart, not one filled with anger and suspicion about us. 

Any "experiment" with regard to the Jews is bound to fail if it is not centered on the Torah. Part and parcel of the Torah is a devotion to Eretz Israel, and the aspiration to deserve to live there once again. The Soviet experiment with regard to the Jews is not the only one to have failed abysmally. The "Haskalah", the so-called Jewish enlightenment, secular Zionism, Reform and Conservative Judaism, are also experiments who's goals were to alter the original plan that G-d has for us. All failed, for various reasons and in different ways.




> Also what is your opinion of the Jews that were inhabiting Palestine, many of whom which seem to agree with this man?
> 
> YouTube - Jewish Rabbi: Zionists are Godless Criminal Thugs
> 
> What about these groups claims that the creation of the state of Israel conflicts with the Torah?
> http://www.nkusa.org/ http://jewsagainstzionism.com/


Interesting you should cite these groups. First of all, his glowing reports of life under Islam are misinformed. I've posted videos of eyewitness accounts re the life of the Jewish community under Islam over the centuries. It was sometimes good, but always insecure, often horrible. The Jews under Islam never knew when the generous spirit would revert to a murderous one. He cites the number of Jews in Yemen and Iran, but he fails to point out the fact that those Jewish communities were once much larger. That begs the question: Why did they leave? Iran had around 200,000 Jews, now somewhere between 25,000 - 40,000. Why? And are they really living securely, or are they there because their ability or options to leave are limited??

Neturai Karta developed its views from the Oral Torah. What do you think of that? My view? There are supposedly some oaths that the Jewish people took after being expelled from Eretz Israel. Religious Zionists would say that the oath is no longer binding because of how cruel and inhospitable the gentile world has been to the Jews. Differences of opinions can be discussed respectfully between  anti-Zionist religious Jews and Zionist religious Jews if both groups want the best for the Jewish people. 

The majority of the Orthodox world does not go along with the view of Neturai Karta, because their ambivalence towards secular Zionists has gone beyond the call of duty to the Torah, and has turned to hatred towards their fellow Jews. They've joined the murdered of Jews, the people who blow up buses full of unarmed men, women and children. That's inexcusable. Thus Neturai Karta are in rebellion to the current Torah Sages. They need to get in line, because according to the Torah, we are to obey our current Torah Sages.

I have dear friends who are insistent that we must wait for the Messiah, and others who are making ready to move to Israel. When we discuss our differences, there is respect, an understanding that we all have the best interests of the Jewish people at heart, an understanding that we all want to obey G-d.

Among the Orthodox, most have an ambivalent attitude towards the government of Israel. But there is a huge difference between the government of Israel, and the Jews who live in Eretz Israel. The government has earned the contempt that most Jews feel towards it. Why? They are not doing their job of protecting the Jewish people. That is a government's primary raison d'etre. However, that contempt for a job not well done is tempered with the fact that we do our best to give honest Jews who are truly trying to do their best the benefit of the doubt. It is the same view Americans should have towards government servants. Yes, contempt when they abuse their office, neglect their duties. But we must try and give people the benefit of the doube wherever possible.

Setting any conflicting views of Labor Zionism or Secular Zionism and the government of Israel aside, the fact of the matter is, over 6 milion Jewish souls live in Eretz Israel. Both they and the land of Eretz Israel deserve our attention, love and protection. Neturai Karta has lost site of those facts.

[QUOTE=revolutionisnow;2406311]
As far as Oral law/written law, anything outside of the OT is man made. The OT is a gross mistranslation of the Hebrew Bible, thus the OT is man made. I suggest you purchase a copy of *Lets Get Biblical*. A second printing will be available on November 15th of this year. I think the cost is about $40.00 now. If you compare the verses of the Torah, quoted in the NT, which how they are written in a Hebrew Bible, you will find some serious problems. Even a Strong's won't help you. The Christians texts play with the Hebrew Bible to promote the Christian agenda. No offense intended. Just the facts. 

I say this recognizing that the Christians in the US are some of the most loyal and devoted friends the Jewish people have ever had. That type of person has such an amazingly good soul, that they seem to be able to overlook any antisemitism embedded within those mistranslations. They seem to have a spiritual ability to understand what the texts truly meant as originally written. 




> Why would you use man made religion to contradict the Laws of Moses? If you do not accept those laws why not admit it is a different religion altogether? Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Amish, etc are all religions semi based on Christianity, but they do not hide the fact that they deviate from mainstream road.


Why would you trust translators of the Hebrew Bible, instead of learning Hebrew yourself so you can read it on your own? You are trusting your soul to the care of others, who may not have your best interests at heart.

The Oral Law does not contradict the Torah. These are the myths promoted by the enemies of the Jewish people. There are non-Jews who have overcome this sort of nonsense, actually looked into the Oral Law, its structure and purpose, and found it to be a wealth of wisdom. In addition, there are passages in the Written Torah that refer to the Oral Tradition or Oral Torah that HaShem gave to Moses. The Torah is the Jewish people's constitution, and the Oral Law is the legislation that is derived out of the the Torah. In Parsha Shoftim, G-d gives the Jewish people the responsibility to draw up legislation based on the Torah.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Why do you think it was a flop? Not enough billions of foreign aid? And why is it a flop?


I already said why. There is no historical relevance between the Jewish people Birobidzhan. 




> Seemed like a pretty peaceful place to me, no rockets, no fences or walls. I don't think I heard anything about every man and woman being forced into service eithe. I never even knew it existed until recently. But that would be my goal, aspire to be like Switzerland, a quite, neutral existence, someplace where they don't have much news about them either way.


The mission that G-d has given to the Jewish people is centered in Eretz Israel. In order for you to understand the reason why we even exist and what our purpose on this earth is, you would have to read about Judaism with an open mind and a kind heart, not one filled with anger and suspicion about us. The choice is yours.

Any "experiment" with regard to the Jews is bound to fail if it is not centered on the Torah. Part and parcel of the Torah is a devotion to Eretz Israel, and the aspiration to deserve to live there once again. As far as living in a neutral region, with peace and prosperity, no one in the world is promised such a life until the messianic era arrives. Until then, living a life devoted to the truth as revealed in the Hebrew Scriptures is no promise of ease in this life. Some may be so blessed and some not.

The Soviet experiment with regard to the Jews is not the only one to have failed abysmally. The "Haskalah", the so-called Jewish enlightenment, secular Zionism, Reform and Conservative Judaism, are also experiments who's goals were to alter the original plan that G-d has for us. All failed, for various reasons and in different ways.




> Also what is your opinion of the Jews that were inhabiting Palestine, many of whom which seem to agree with this man?
> 
> YouTube - Jewish Rabbi: Zionists are Godless Criminal Thugs
> 
> What about these groups claims that the creation of the state of Israel conflicts with the Torah?
> http://www.nkusa.org/ http://jewsagainstzionism.com/


Interesting you should cite these groups. First of all, his glowing reports of life under Islam are misinformed. I've posted videos of eyewitness accounts re the life of the Jewish community under Islam prior to the massive expulsion of Jews from those lands. There is an abundance of literature which covers the life of Jews and all "dhimmis" under Islam. It is hardly idyllic. It was sometimes good, but always insecure, because one never knew when the generous spirit would revert to a murderous one. He cites the number of Jews in Yemen and Iran, but he fails to point out the fact that those Jewish communities were once much larger. Why did they leave. Iran had around 200,000 Jews, now somewhere between 25,000 - 40,000. Why? And are they really living securely, or are they there because their ability or options to leave are limited?? Any decent history book on Jewish history will concur.

Neturai Karta developed its views from the Oral Torah. What do you think of that? My view? There are supposedly some oaths that the Jewish people took after being expelled from Eretz Israel. Religious Zionists would say that the oath is non-binding because of how cruel and inhospitable the gentile world has been to the Jews. The difference between what anti-Zionist religious Jews and Zionist religious Jews is that both groups want the best for the Jewish people.

I have dear friends who are insistent that we must wait for the Messiah, and others who are making ready to move to Israel. When we discuss our differences, there is respect, an understanding that we all have the best interests of the Jewish people at heart, an understanding that we all want to obey G-d.

Among the Orthodox, most have an ambivalent attitude towards the government of Israel. But there is a huge difference between the government of Israel, and the Jews who live in Eretz Israel. The government has earned the contempt that most Jews feel towards it. Why? They are not doing their job of protecting the Jewish people. That is a government's primary raison d'etre. However, that contempt for a job not well done is tempered with the fact that we do our best to give honest Jews who are truly trying to do their best the benefit of the doubt. It is the same view Americans should have towards government servants. Yes, contempt when they abuse their office, neglect their duties. But we must try and give people the benefit of the doubt wherever possible.

Setting any conflicting views of Labor Zionism or Secular Zionism and the government of Israel aside, the fact of the matter is, over 6 milion Jewish souls live in Eretz Israel. Both they and the land of Eretz Israel deserve our attention, love and protection. Neturai Karta has lost site of those facts.




> As far as Oral law/written law, anything outside of the OT is man made.


The OT is a gross mistranslation of the Hebrew Bible, thus the OT is man made. I suggest you purchase a copy of *Lets Get Biblical*. A second printing will be available on November 15th of this year. I think the cost is about $40.00 now, which would included s&h. If you compare the verses of the Torah, quoted in the NT, and then find those same verses as written in a Hebrew Bible, you will find some serious problems. Even a Strong's Concordance won't help you. The Christians texts play with the Hebrew Bible to promote the Christian agenda. No offense intended. Just the facts. 

I say this recognizing that the Christians in the US are some of the most loyal and devoted friends the Jewish people have ever had. That type of person has such an amazingly good soul, that they seem to be able to overlook any antisemitism embedded within those mistranslations. They seem to have a spiritual ability to understand what the texts truly meant as originally written. 




> Why would you use man made religion to contradict the Laws of Moses? If you do not accept those laws why not admit it is a different religion altogether? Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Amish, etc are all religions semi based on Christianity, but they do not hide the fact that they deviate from mainstream road.


Why would you trust translators of the Hebrew Bible, instead of learning Hebrew yourself so you can read it on your own? You are trusting your soul to the care of others, who may not have your best interests at heart.

The Oral Law does not contradict the Torah. These are the myths promoted by the enemies of the Jewish people. Many of the quotations cited on antisemitic sites intent on defaming Judaism and the Oral Law either quotes passages that are not nor were they ever in the Oral Law, or they are quoting minority opinions, which were not adopted, or they are not taking into consideration how the Oral Law is structured. In order to begin to understand the structure of the Oral Law, you must spend the 15 minutes it takes to listen to R' Singer's audio:

*Does the Talmud Condone Murder, Pedophilia, and Idolatry?*

There are non-Jews who have overcome this sort of nonsense, actually looked into the Oral Law, its structure and purpose, and found it to be a wealth of wisdom. In addition, there are passages in the Written Torah that refer to the Oral Tradition or Oral Torah that HaShem gave to Moses. The Torah is the Jewish people's constitution, and the Oral Law is the legislation that is derived out of the the Torah. In Parsha Shoftim, G-d gives the Jewish people the responsibility to draw up legislation based on the Torah.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> I hear the Argentinians lucked out when their homeland was rejected.
> Woosh, can still hear the sigh.


Yeah, they preferred escaping Nazis.

----------


## revolutionisnow



----------


## constituent

> The Spaniards were fortunate enough not to have the world interfering in their natural G-d given rights to reclaim their land via the UN.


What?

----------


## constituent

> Because property ownership doesn't go according to looks, it follows proof of ownership.


Exactly.  You've got this much right, I don't see how you've managed to get so much else so wrong...

What proof of ownership did the soon to be israelis have back before 48?  Other than some nebulous (and tenuous) genetic claim, that is...

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## constituent

> There is an abundance of literature which covers the life of Jews and all "dhimmis" under Islam. It is hardly idyllic. It was sometimes good, but always insecure, because *one never knew when the generous spirit would revert to a murderous one.*


Hmmm, sounds familiar.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> What?


It took 800 years for the Spanish to drive the Muslims out of Spain. The conditions were almost exactly the same, save for two differences. First, it took the Jews 1200 years, and second, the Jews have done their level best to regain their lost national homeland via re-purchasing their lands and peaceful settlement, resorting to arms only when self-defense considerations made fighting an absolute necessity. The Spanish simply went to war from the outset. There is no statute of limitations on the right of an entire people to regain their national homeland. There are two conditions required in order to retain that right:

a)  The people who's national homeland has been stolen from them must still be in existence

b) The people who's national homeland has been stolen must not have relinquished their claim

Both conditions were met by both the Spanish when driving the Muslim usurpers out of their land, and by the Jewish people.

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## constituent

> There is no statute of limitations on the right of an entire people to regain their national homeland.


"An entire people" cannot own property, unless perhaps they purchase it as a corporation.  This has been explained to you several times in this thread. 




> There are two conditions required in order to retain that right:


According to whom?

----------


## revolutionisnow

The Invention of the Jewish People
http://www.amazon.com/Invention-Jewi...dp/1844674223/

YouTube - Interview with Shlomo Sand Author of The Invention of the Jewish People 1/2

----------


## ElyaKatz

> "An entire people" cannot own property, unless perhaps they purchase it as a corporation.  This has been explained to you several times in this thread. 
> 
> 
> 
> According to whom?


Property ownership is not the issue. National sovereignty is the issue, and yes, an entire people can have national sovereignty over their national homeland. Under that long recognized principle is the idea of separate nations...the opposite of global governance BTW. It's why the Chinese government can't dictate their laws and values to the American government. 

Conversely, property ownership, even on a large scale, by foreigners, does not give them the right to secede that portion of the property and create their own sovereign nation, with a superior claim to that land over the original nation. The process is much more involved than that...such as proving the historical presence of that people as a sovereign nation in that land. Which the Jewish people have done thrice over, at least.

There are Jewish kings buried in Eretz Israel. Both Jewish Temples, well known throughout the ancient world, were both situated in Jerusalem for a total of 80 years. There are no Arab kings buried in Eretz Isael. The center of Muslim worship has never been in Eretz Israel, and even the mosques in Eretz Israel, a far cry from a central temple in importance, are late comers to the region.

The archeology within Eretz Israel alone, with ancient synagogues peppering the landscape long before Islam was in existence, proves the Jewish people's national claim to sovereignty.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> The Invention of the Jewish People
> http://www.amazon.com/Invention-Jewi...dp/1844674223/


Well revolutionisnow, if Shlomo Zand's "theories", and I use that term loosely in this case, are true, you as a Christian are pretty much up $#@!'s creek aren't you? No Hebrew Bible, no Jewish people, no messiah, no redemption, no G-d, no heaven for RIN. Oh no!!

*Wikipedia on "The Invention of the Jewish People"*

*Critics*

_"Israel Bartal, dean of the humanities faculty of the Hebrew University, in a commentary published in Haaretz,[9] writes that Zand's basic thesis and statements about Jewish historiography are 'baseless'. Bartal answers to 'Sand's arguments (...) that no historian of the Jewish national movement has ever really believed that the origins of the Jews are ethnically and biologically 'pure' [and that] Sand applies marginal positions to the entire body of Jewish historiography and, in doing so, denies the existence of the central positions in Jewish historical scholarship.' Bartal refers to Sand's overall treatment of Jewish sources as 'embarrassing and humiliating.' He adds that 'The kind of political intervention Sand is talking about, namely, a deliberate program designed to make Israelis forget the true biological origins of the Jews of Poland and Russia or a directive for the promotion of the story of the Jews' exile from their homeland is pure fantasy.' Bartel summarizes his critique of Sand's characterization of Jewish historiography as follows: 'as far as I can discern, the book contains not even one idea that has not been presented earlier in their books and articles by what he insists on defining as 'authorized historians' suspected of 'concealing historical truth,' 'and calls the overall work 'bizarre and incoherent.'[9]

"Tom Segev wrote that Sand's book 'is intended to promote the idea that Israel should be a 'state of all its citizens' - Jews, Arabs and others - in contrast to its declared identity as a 'Jewish and democratic' state' and that the book is generally 'well-written' and includes 'numerous facts and insights that many Israelis will be astonished to read for the first time'.[8]

"Anita Shapira wrote 'Sand bases his arguments on the most esoteric and controversial interpretations, while seeking to undermine the credibility of important scholars by dismissing their conclusions without bringing any evidence to bear.'[10]

"For Ofri Ilani, '(...) most of [the] book does not deal with the invention of the Jewish people by modern Jewish nationalism, but rather with the question of where the Jews come from.'[6]

"Hillel Halkin has cited the book as an example of the fact that there apparently is 'no book too foolish to go un-admired by someone.'[11]

"Jeffrey Goldberg likened the book to Arthur Koestler's The Thirteenth Tribe, another book with a controversial thesis on the genesis of the Jewish people published in 1976.[12] 'Today,' Jeffrey Goldberg said, 'The Thirteenth Tribe is a combination of discredited and forgotten.' Goldberg also accused Sand of having disingenuous motives:

" 'Sand is not publishing this book at a dignified conference in Bern at which scholars of the Middle East debate the origins of the Jews ... He is dropping manufactured facts into a world that in many cases is ready, willing, and happy to believe the absolute worst conspiracy theories about Jews and to use those conspiracy theories to justify physically hurting Jews. ... It is nothing new ... We [the Jews] survived ... The Thirteenth Tribe; we can survive this.'[12]_

If you understood the history of Jewish communists and their rabid, I mean foaming at the mouth _hatred_ for their fellow Jews, then you would understand the agenda of Shlomo Sands. You just love to find people that hate hate Jews, and if they are Jews who hate Jews, so much the better...even if the rest of their ideology is repulsive to you, don't you? I'm assuming you do not have a great love for fascists or communists, being an American patriot RIN? Thus, the only portion of their thinking you can find common cause with is their hatred of and desire to totally discredit the Jewish people. This would explalin your attachment to Islamofascists and Jew hating communists. Yes, there were Jewish bosheviks. And they considered no effort in destroying their fellow Jews too great. They've been a thorn in the side in Israel as well. 

Shlomo Zand is a member of *Matzpen*. They are understating their ideology when they claim to merely be "socialist".

Much better choices for reading:

*History Of Jewish People Volume 1 - 2nd Temple Era*

*History Of Jewish People Volume 2 - From Yavneh To Pumpedisa*

I've been to many archeological sites throughout Jerusalem and throughout Eretz Israel my friend. The history of our language, our prayers, our culture, the massive amount of letters the Jewish community sent to one another in both personal correspondence and in search of rabbinic rulings for various thorny issues throughout our exile, the reconvening the Sanhedrin after the destruction of the Temple and their work on behalf of the surviving Jewish people, the continuity of our observance through the establishment of Jewish courts in every city where scholars could reside, the records of immigration, our national fidelity to the entire Torah despite the most horrific methods of tortures devised by our enemies, even the history of the current crypto-Jews in Israel...it all works against Zand's theories.

----------


## revolutionisnow

> Well revolutionisnow, if Shlomo Sand's "theories", and I use that term loosely in this case, are true, you as a Christian are pretty much up $#@!'s creek aren't you? No Hebrew Bible, no Jewish people, no messiah, no redemption, no G-d, no heaven for RIN. Oh no!!


First of all, just because I post something it does not necessarily mean I agree with him 100% on every idea he has. But Hebrew does not equal "jew". Jews are definitely not Israelites either. That is a proven fraud via half truths and word games. The real Israelites followed Jesus. The impostors didn't and persecuted him. He spoke out and warned us about these impostors multiple times. 

PS: Wikipedia isn't a credible source, especially on anything remotely controversial

----------


## ElyaKatz

BS"D

Hezbollah has been exposed by a Lebanese man who joined them, became a highly placed operative, for the express purpose of getting as much intelligence as he could and giving that intel to Israel. It all started when his brother, happily engaged, learned that a member of the local Hezbollah group wanted his fiance. They trumped up charges against him -- of spying for Israel. His friends tried to help him escape from Lebanon, but they caught him, and "tried" him. They of course, found him "guilty" and said he would be burned alive. They also told the entire village that they had to watch and "celebrate" or else they would be accused of also spying for Israel and possibly suffer the same fate. 

This man was forced to stand next to his burning brother and watch smoke pouring out of his mouth as he cried out for vengeance. It was at that moment he decided he would infiltrate Hezbollah and then give the information he had to Israel. 

Hezbollah is also on record for deciding a particular family was not on their most popular list...then taking one of the family's small children and torturing them to death in front of the family...all in order to "protect" the people of the given village from Israel. One little girl's limbs were tied to two different cars, and then slowly pulled apart as she screamed in pain.

Prior to the rebirth of the Jewish nation, it didn't matter to Haj Amin al-Husayni whether Jews living in Eretz Israel had sovereignty or were just living there. He wanted them all dead, and that is the goal of Hamas and Hezbollah. Furthermore, they don't plan to stop with the Jews...we are just the beginning. They make that clear over and over again.

According to the man who infiltrated Hezbollah, neo-Nazis throughout Europe and possibly also the US send a lot of money to Hezbollah. The man who wrote the book now lives in Israel, and must remain incognito in order to protect the rest of his family in Lebanon. He has converted to Judaism, bless his soul.

_Source: "Mishneh Tzadi HaGvul" (Both Sides of the Border)_

Keep in mind this man's life story under Hezbollah -- as a Muslim -- when reading the following warning to non-Muslim Australians of European descent:

*Australia must join Muslim Asia or perish - Taliban*

*Who is Hezbollah?*

 
Watch "PRISON CAPTIVES BEATEN TO DEATH IN LEBANON"

*Christians in Lebanon. The Christian future if the world pressures Israel to allow the formation of the 23rd Muslim nation of the Middle East.*

 
Watch "Christian Persecution in Lebanon part 1"

----------


## revolutionisnow

Palestine should be able to have a standing army, with sufficient military equivalent to Israel. All it would take is to give them all the US taxpayer funded freebies that Israel would have gotten in one year. Wonder if they would attack an equally armed soldier?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> First of all, just because I post something it does not necessarily mean I agree with him 100% on every idea he has. But Hebrew does not equal "jew". Jews are definitely not Israelites either. That is a proven fraud via half truths and word games. The real Israelites followed Jesus. The impostors didn't and persecuted him. He spoke out and warned us about these impostors multiple times. 
> 
> PS: Wikipedia isn't a credible source, especially on anything remotely controversial


The names posted in the Wikipedia source can be googled to see if those critics wrote what is claimed. I realize Wikepedia is not a 100% credible source. But Wikipedia can be an excellent place to start. Original sources are always the best.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Palestine should be able to have a standing army, with sufficient military equivalent to Israel. All it would take is to give them all the US taxpayer funded freebies that Israel would have gotten in one year. Wonder if they would attack an equally armed soldier?


And if you claim what you say are your legitimate rights to Eretz Israel as the new heir, due to your faith in Jesus...and then move to Israel, do you think those equally armed Arabs will tolerate your presence??

----------


## ElyaKatz

> First of all, just because I post something it does not necessarily mean I agree with him 100% on every idea he has. But Hebrew does not equal "jew". Jews are definitely not Israelites either. That is a proven fraud via half truths and word games. The real Israelites followed Jesus. The impostors didn't and persecuted him. He spoke out and warned us about these impostors multiple times. 
> 
> PS: Wikipedia isn't a credible source, especially on anything remotely controversial


Another theory on Jesus is that his "prophecies" were backwritten into the Gospels by the Ebionites 400 years later...those guys the rabbis had suggested should give up on the Second Coming. Ah, but they just couldn't do it. Think about it. The NT was canonized by a group convened by Constantine, an antisemitc pagan and murderer. 

Paul Johnson in History of Christianity writes of Constantine (pg 68):
_
“He [Constantine] had no respect for human life, and as emperor he executed his eldest son, his own second wife, his favorite sister’s husband and ‘many others’ on doubtful charges ... He was much criticized for condemning prisoners of war to mortal combat with wild beasts at Trier and Comar and for wholesale massacres in north Africa.”_

Read the words of the founding fathers of Christianity. Those are not men I'd want to follow as my spiritual mentors.

YouTube - Protocols.
If the original Israelites were forced into exile for not obeying to Torah, and if the Torah, which is praised over and over again in the Hebrew in the Book of Psalms where it is said to be eternal, as it is elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible, (which you would know if you could read Hebrew) then are you wearing fringes on the four corners of your garment with one blue cord in the middle? Are you following the Torah?

Even Jesus says that he did not come to abrogate the Torah, not even the smallest letter. He also says that his followers should do as the scribes and pharisees say to do (that would mean to follow their rulings) because they sit in the seat of Moses. So? Are you observing the Sabbath as prescribed in the Torah? Are you following the laws in Leviticus?? When are you going to Eretz Israel to win back your land??

 If not, why not? After all, you are supposedly now the replacement Israelite.

----------


## revolutionisnow

> And if you claim what you say are your legitimate rights to Eretz Israel as the new heir, due to your faith in Jesus...and then move to Israel, do you think those equally armed Arabs will tolerate your presence??


Not planning on moving to Palestine, but if I did, I would treat them like humans and live with them as neighbors and equals, not bulldoze their houses, shoot at women and children, or deprive them of basic necessities like food and water. Why should anyone have to change location to have communication with their Lord? The house of Israel is too plentiful to fit in that tiny space.

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## revolutionisnow

YouTube - Israeli Confessions

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## constituent

> Property ownership is not the issue. National sovereignty is the issue, and yes, an entire people can have national sovereignty over their national homeland. Under that long recognized principle is the idea of separate nations...the opposite of global governance BTW. It's why the Chinese government can't dictate their laws and values to the American government. 
> 
> Conversely, property ownership, even on a large scale, by foreigners, does not give them the right to secede that portion of the property and create their own sovereign nation, with a superior claim to that land over the original nation. The process is much more involved than that...such as proving the historical presence of that people as a sovereign nation in that land. Which the Jewish people have done thrice over, at least.
> 
> There are Jewish kings buried in Eretz Israel. Both Jewish Temples, well known throughout the ancient world, were both situated in Jerusalem for a total of 80 years. There are no Arab kings buried in Eretz Isael. The center of Muslim worship has never been in Eretz Israel, and even the mosques in Eretz Israel, a far cry from a central temple in importance, are late comers to the region.
> 
> The archeology within Eretz Israel alone, with ancient synagogues peppering the landscape long before Islam was in existence, proves the Jewish people's national claim to sovereignty.




So go ahead and draw me your family tree straight back to your three Jewish kings and i'll concede the point...  I won't be holding my breath.

----------


## constituent

> Even Jesus says that he did not come to abrogate the Torah, not even the smallest letter. He also says that his followers should do as the scribes and pharisees say to do (that would mean to follow their rulings) because they sit in the seat of Moses. So? Are you observing the Sabbath as prescribed in the Torah? Are you following the laws in Leviticus?? When are you going to Eretz Israel to win back your land??
> 
>  If not, why not? After all, you are supposedly now the replacement Israelite.


Guess you missed this part...

Galatians 5:16-18 22-26

 16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18*But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law*...

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.


Though I'm not a christian, I will admit that one can learn a lot from Galatians.

----------


## revolutionisnow

YouTube - If you Leave your house ITS MINE -- Israeli aggression

----------


## ElyaKatz

BS"D

*The Other War: Israelis, Palestinians and the Struggle for Media Supremacy*y ~ Stephanie Gutmann

Israel is the most friendly nation in the Middle East for reporters....the local Arabs of Judea, Samaria and Gaza know this. They work the system. Note the cover on the book: An Arab kid, throwing a rock at....no one. Lines of photographers several feet deep, like a model showing up at the Cannes Film Festival for some much needed attention.

Ahhh, the amazing and oppressed "Palestinian" people. Don't take my word for it. Read the book, if you're open minded enough.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Guess you missed this part...
> 
> Galatians 5:16-18 22-26


I don't bother with the NT much, unless I'm busy showing the occasional pastor how the Christian version of quotes passages in the Hebrew Bible are typically inaccurately quoted. 

Thus, I wouldn't characterize my general inattention to the book of Galatians as "missing" anything. I know very well what it says. It happens to be irrelevant to me in any case, as the intended audience is not Jews, but, ehm...Galatians.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> So go ahead and draw me your family tree straight back to your three Jewish kings and i'll concede the point...  I won't be holding my breath.


And do you hold the British, Irish and Scottish to the same standard? Must each and every one of them trace themselves back to royalty in order to have a right to their national homelands??

The English, Irish and Scottish have comparatively little written down in regards to how they came to possess the British Isles...really a pathetic, young and patchy collection of national literature in comparison to the Jews. 

Don't get me wrong. I respect British heritage, find it extremely interesting. It is rich. However, it simply can't compare to my own people's. We've been around as long as the Chinese, and have been literate from _the beginning_ with a linear historical worldview, and a concurrent national sense of destiny long before other nations conceived of such notions.

And what about yourself? What gives you the right to live in America?? Interesting, this constant double-standard you apply to Jews.

----------


## amy31416

> And do you hold the British, Irish and Scottish to the same standard? Interesting, this constant double-standard applied to Jews. And yet...the English, Irish and Scottish have comparatively little written down in regards to how they came to possess the British Isles...really a pathetic, young and patchy collection of national literature in comparison to the Jews. 
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I respect British heritage, find it extremely interesting. It is rich. However, it simply can't compare to my own people's. We've been around as long as the Chinese, and have been literate from _the beginning_ with a linear historical worldview long before other nations conceived of such a notion.


Did they (the British, Irish and Scottish) try to boot natives out after being gone for 2,000 years? Your litmus test to legitimacy is how much they wrote down? If that's the case, you should seriously kiss some Arab/Muslim ass for saving the Hebrew language. http://books.google.com/books?id=jZl...age&q=&f=false

(I'm sure you'll deny that though.)

British heritage doesn't compare to Jewish heritage...that's rich. The only thing that exceeds your ego is your delusions of grandeur.

----------


## Dieseler

//

----------


## Dieseler

//

----------


## ElyaKatz

> YouTube - If you Leave your house ITS MINE -- Israeli aggression


The video fails to present the facts of the case, only the emotion surrounding it. Who is being evicted and why? The fact is, there is a lot of property in Hebron that was stolen from Jewish families after the 1929 Hebron massacre, perpetrated by Arabs, as the British sat on their fat butts doing nothing to help whatsoever, until afterwards that is...when they escorted the few surviving Jews out of their homes of hundreds of years.

Thus the question I pose to the intellectually honest man or woman is this: Do you think the above posted video exposes Israeli aggression, or Israeli self-defense from Arab aggression?

The Israeli who speaks is admittedly not the most elegant spokesman for the Jewish position, but that doesn't prove or disprove the merits of the particular case in question. 

It would have been better to have said that something to this effect: "I make no apologies for the Jewish people's claim to Eretz Israel, which is based primarily on Scriptural evidence and documentation, those claims having been recognized by the international community for thousands of years, being formalized in the Balfour Declaration and the Palestine Mandate." However, only experienced spokespersons can be that articulate on the spot.

There is much in the way of illegal Arab building, on Jewish owned land, and nothing is done about it. There is a case in Jerusalem of an elderly Jewish man who has been fighting to remove Arab squatters from his property for 17 years. 

*The 1929 Arab Terror Attack: When Hebron Became Occupied Territory*

_"Hebron was the first piece of land ever purchased by a Jew in Israel. Approximately 38 centuries ago, the patriarch Abraham purchased a cave in Hebron to bury his beloved wife Sarah. Jews have owned land in Hebron from then until the early part of the 20th century.

"On hearing screams in a room I went up a sort of tunnel passage and saw an Arab in the act of cutting off a child’s head with a sword.... (Bernard Wasserstein, The British in Palestine: The Mandatory Government and the Arab-Jewish Conflict 1917-1929).”

"When the terrorist massacre finally ended, the surviving Jews resettled in Jerusalem. Some Jewish families tried to move back to their homes in Hebron, but were removed by the British authorities in 1936 at the start of the Arab revolt. In 1948, the War of Independence granted Israel statehood, but Jews were cut off from Hebron, as the city was captured by King Abdullah’s Arab Legion and ultimately annexed to Jordan.

When Jews finally gained control of the city in 1967, a small number of massacre survivors again tried to reclaim their old houses. Then defense minister Moshe Dayan supposedly told the survivors that if they returned, they would be arrested, and that they should be patient while the government worked out a solution to get their houses back. Dayan never got around to it — guess he was too busy giving away Jewish rights to the Temple Mount."_

*Hebron for Jews Today*

*Arab Hevron Flourishes while Jewish Growth Restricted*

_"Hevron Jewish leaders explained to him restrictions of civil rights to Jews and asked the minister for help thaw the freeze on building for Jews. Hevron, one of the four cities in Israel that are traditionally referred to as holy, was the first area in Judea and Samaria to which Jews returned after it was restored to the Jewish State in the Six-Day War in 1967.

Jewish leaders in the city also explained to him the plight of Jewish owners of buildings where the High Court ordered them to leave temporarily, but the office of the attorney-general later ruled they could not return. The buildings remain empty.

The Science Minister went to a Hevron yeshiva where students are forced to live in crowded rooms because of the government clamp on Jewish expansion. He also toured the Patriarchs' Cave, where Arabs frequently try to attack visitors and soldiers, and visited the Jewish museum."_

There is a Jewish family in Samaria who's farm has just been destroyed. The case was in the midst of being appealed, when the IDF, and local Arabs came along and destroyed their sheep pens, trying to scatter the sheep. This family lives on Israeli State Land...it was stolen from no one. 

*A Life's Work' Destroyed in Samaria*

_"The Botzer farm, located adjacent to Mevo Dotan in the Shomron (Samaria) region, was destroyed Monday morning as part of the government crackdown on what have been defined as "unauthorized outposts" in lands liberated by Israel prior to the Six Day War. David and Shaina Botzer told Arutz Sheva that their farm is actually on state land within the municipal territory of Mevo Dotan, although west of the town's current residential area."_

In fact, most the Jewish villages in Judea and Samaria were built as compensation to the Jewish people for the homes, lands, and funds stolen from them by the Arab/Muslim world around the time of the Israeli War of Independence, when approximately 850,000 Jews were forcibly evicted and had to move to Israel, often with only the clothes on their backs.

YouTube - The Forgotten Refugees - The Only Authentic Version - Part 1

----------


## ElyaKatz

> YouTube - Israeli Confessions


Distortions of Israeli words is more like it, distortions of everything that goes on in Israel ---
*
Israeli sappers send in a robot to defuse suicide belt and rescue Hussam Abdo*

I could probably tear every "quote" in this most recent video you've posted to shreds revolutionisnow, as I have so many of your posts. It's a waste of time. You're convinced, so I'll let you answer to the Creator of the Universe for your hatred and propaganda against a people who simply wants to be left to themselves to worship Him in peace as they see fit. 

I'll cover a couple of the more obvious lies/distortions in this video. First, Benny Morris is used as a source in the video. He is a thoroughly discredited leftist "historian" who has been proven to have taken quotes completely out of context. Next, the video shows the 14-16 (??) year Hussam Abdo who was rescued by Israeli soldiers. The video is full of lies and distortions. Of course it is. That's all the Arab enemies of Israel have...lies, distortions and a co-opting of Jewish history in order to pretend that history is theirs.

*SUICIDE BOMBERS-SOME WERE MERELY CHILDREN* by
Lieutenant Colonel Lillian A. James-O'Neal United States Air Force

_"The youngest suicide bomber, 14 year old Hussam Abdo, was caught during security checks at Hawara Checkpoint in the West Bank in March 2004.19 The Israeli Defense Force checkpoint personnel stopped Hussam after noticing the bulk under his sweater; security personnel then patiently walked him through removal of the explosives from his body. If Hussam had detonated the device, he could have killed the Israeli solders and 200-300 Arabs awaiting security checks. First, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for Hussam'sheroic attempt to martyr himself, but when the media revealed that the bomber was a 14 yearold child, Al Aqsa, then, denied they had sent him-claiming that the previous information was all a fabrication of Israeli propagandists.20 This latest despicable use of children drew strong condemnation from human rights organizations and moderate Arabs, but failed to prevent further incidents of using children as suicide bombers."_

*Looks to me like this boy is being saved by Israelis,
 not oppressed by them.*


*BBC interview of Hussam Abdo*, with comments by Jared Israel of "The Emperor's New Clothes"

*Wikipedia on Hussam Abdo*

This article claims he was 16 at the time of the incident. The BBC article says he was 15. Suffice it to say, he was between 14-16. What is also clear is the fact that he is developmentally delayed, possessing the maturity level of a 12 year old boy at the time he donned that suicide belt.

The supposedly evil looking photos in the video you posted, RIN -- are of  Israeli soldiers defending themselves against 5 Arab armies once the nation had declared it's independence. There are also photos of people that clearly are dressing as Jews, rather than Arabs. This leads me to suspect that they were Jews, not Arabs I've seen that many times. And many of the photos of dead people, could be identified as Jews too. The entire video is completely disingenuous.

Incidentally, the claim was never that the major cities in Eretz Israel were empty. The countryside was, in fact, largely uninhabited. And in those populated urban centers, most had a Jewish majority, including Jerusalem.

Finally, I'll quote one of your favorite people, Michael Medved, on the Jewish claims to Eretz Israel:

*Does Israel have a right to exist? Does the U.S.?*
_
"The resettlement of the sparsely populated Holy Land by the descendants of its ancient inhabitants, however, did not take place solely in the modern era. Throughout Jewish history, waves of returnees came back to the sacred soil of their ancestors. In the 8th and 9th centuries, A.D., Jewish immigrants re-established major communities in Jerusalem and Tiberias; by the 11th Century, they had built new communities in Jaffa, Ashkelon, Caesarea and Rafah. In the 16th Century, more Jewish immigrants developed the famous center of mysticism in Safed and beginning in the 1700’s religious scholars and pilgrims intensely repopulated Jerusalem.

The Jewish connection to Israel, in other words, remained impassioned and unbroken for some three thousand years, while the British connection with North American began only in 1607 (with Jamestown) and 1620 (with the Pilgrims at Plymouth). No European settlers to the New World claimed an ancient connection to the land they discovered, developed, and gradually populated. Moreover, the Native Americans who preceded them came to the Western Hemisphere across the land bridge from Asia at the very latest some 13,000 years before the White Men arrived, while the Arabs appeared in Israel for the first time in the 7th Century.

If opponents of the modern Jewish State argue that Israelis have no meaningful claim on the land they occupy then on what basis do today’s Americans have a stake in the vast continent once inhabited by millions of members of hundreds of Indian tribes?"_

*Those oppressive, evil Israeli soldiers*

----------


## revolutionisnow

When are you going to make the case for your right to own slaves? I figure that post isn't too far away since you love to use what people wrongly did in the 17th and 18th centuries to justify your actions here in the 21st century.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> When are you going to make the case for your right to own slaves? I figure that post isn't too far away since you love to use what people wrongly did in the 17th and 18th centuries to justify your actions here in the 21st century.


Judaism and all the principles promoted by Judaism stand in direct opposition to slavery...not that you'd know that since you've "educated" yourself on Judaism from antisemitic sources. And yes, I know Jews were involved in the slave trade. Everybody was back then. The Muslim world continues, in fact. Those Jews will answer for their crimes. Yesh Din v'Dayan.

I have never claimed Jews to be perfect. I just don't happen to think we are the devil incarnate, with no redeeming qualities and no honor in our history, as you so obviously think. Quite the opposite. 

I'm waiting for one post from you which is on-point. You simply use any thread I begin, for the purpose of addressing a specific question re the Arab-Israeli conflict, as an excuse to post your Jew bashing, Jew baiting bull$#@!. I can safely assume you to be a Jew bashing antisemite ever since your "kosher tax" posts. You rarely address the very specific subject matter. You also seem to have no clue what a "fact" is...I suggest you consider attending your local community college...sign up for a logic class, because logic is not your strong suit.

When a person writes or says something, making a generalization without providing a specific example to back that generalization, then it is accurate to consider that person to be a superficial, intellectually dishonest "thinker". Your quote above is exactly such a generalization, with no specific examples to back your claim. 

*Audio: Recruiting Suicide Bombers*


When are you making your next contribution to Hezbollah?

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## revolutionisnow

Quoting wikipedia, your own blog, and Israel firsters op ed articles is not backing up anything. 

I do have a question though, if Jews deserve a country of their own as you say, self ruling, with tight restrictions on who they allow in or even give full rights to, and the ability to force out anyone they declare undesirable, do gentiles deserve the same? Or are there 2 sets of rules? It seems using Micheal Medved's and your "logic", Nazi Germany was justified in their actions, as they were the native people of that land? What about the other 100+ expulsions of the Jews, which ones were justified and which ones weren't?

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Quoting wikipedia, your own blog, and Israel firsters op ed articles is not backing up anything.


My recent posts, most of my posts in fact, quote from a variety of credible sources. I cite my blog very infrequently. When I do, it's because that particular post itself has outside links. Wikipedia can't be relied upon exclusively, however the articles include valuable links to outside sources. Wikipedia is an excellent start...it's not the finish line.




> I do have a question though, if Jews deserve a country of their own as you say, self ruling, with tight restrictions on who they allow in or *even give full rights to...*


Bull$#@! alert. Israeli Arabs have complete personal and political rights. Israel's 20% Arab population enjoys the highest standard of living of Arabs in the entire Middle East...and as I have stated several times, are fully represented in every field of Israeli politics and business, including an *Arab Supreme Court Judge*. Tell me RIN, was there even a Jewish businessman left with his business intact in Nazi Germany, let alone any sort of Jewish judge??? Except of course, in hiding, in the forest as a partisan fighter, in a ghetto or a concentration camp?




> and the ability to force out anyone they declare undesirable,


Again, generalizations without specific examples...prove your claim.




> do gentiles deserve the same? Or are there 2 sets of rules?


Of course, Israel strives for a heavily Jewish demographic. The Palestine Mandate was created for that purpose. Israel is the only nation in the world where Jews enjoy majority status. Indeed, history has proven, Jews need one place in the world where they can run Jewish society as they see fit. Otherwise, people like you waste their useless days figuring out ways to make observing Judaism in any form impossible. Catholic Ireland and other small, ethnic nations operate in much the same way. It is not the way America runs things, but where is it engraved in stone that every nation must model their governments completely on the American model?? If a nation which insists on maintaining it's religious and/or ethnic make-up offends you so much, why no posts on the evils of *Yemen* or *Saudi Arabia*?? Why the obsession with all the alleged wrong doings of Jews, of Israel RIN? There are surely bigger fish to fry....




> It seems using Micheal Medved's and your "logic", Nazi Germany was justified in their actions, as they were the native people of that land? What about the other 100+ expulsions of the Jews, which ones were justified and which ones weren't?


Nazi Germany, indeed, Germany...has a long history of depriving non-German, and later non-Christian peoples of basic human rights. Israel does not do that to her non-Jewish population. In fact, Israel has *rescued non-Jewish people* and brought them to Israel. The holy sites in Israel have only remained free for all religions under Israeli rule. Under Jordanian rule, Christians and Jews could not visit the Old City...that was for 19 years. Israelis comprise all ethnic groups. Judaism will accept converts from any nation...there are black Jews, Chinese Jews. 

But of course, as any antisemite will do, (no internal consistency in thinking whatsoever) you will then claim that because Israel does NOT discriminate, they are therefore not the "seed of Abraham" and have no claim to Eretz Israel. So, let me get this straight: According to you, Jews can have no legitimate claim to Eretz Israel if they insist on genetic purity, because then they are racists. However, if Jews refuse to be racists, accepting converts from among any people, they have no claim because of their lack of "racial purity". 

Notwithstanding the fact that Jews moved to Israel to escape deadly discrimination by the non-Jewish majority in the rest of the world, as it turns out, according to you and your ilk, Jews don't have a legitimate right to return to their ancient homeland and create a Jewish nation. Nope. Not even one which clearly respects the personal and political rights of her minorities. And then RIN says neither do Jews have a right to practice Judaism as they see fit in the diaspora, not if it means they manage to secure cooperation from non-Jewish manufacturing companies to produce kosher processed food. Interesting RIN...there is just no corner of the world in which Jews deserve to live according to your "reasoning".

Hint: Jews have never claimed to be racially homogenous, to whit -- the mixed multitude that escaped from Egypt during the Exodus, along with the Children of Israel.

There is no comparison between Nazi Germany and Israel and to make that comparison is obscene. It is also another favorite tactic of antisemites. You think I don't recognize you for who you are? 

We'll see how self-righteous you are when the Muslim world continues settling in America. When they become roughy 10% of the population, and begin demanding "sharia courts" and then when they increase to 20% and want to secede portions of America, or want to usurp the US constitution...then perhaps you'll begin to understand that the world can't be made up entirely and exclusively of nations which have a non-existence cultural heritage. That is the sort of "utopianist" coercion that has resulted in the deaths of millions in nations such as the former USSR, which also refused to accept that different peoples had national identities they wished to preserve.


When are you sending your next contribution in to Hezbollah revolutionisnow??

*US Cracks American-Lebanese Hizbullah Cell*
_
"United States federal authorities have cracked a ten-person cell, including Americans and Lebanese citizens, organized to provide weapons and funding to the Hizbullah terrorist group in Lebanon.

In a statement released on Tuesday, U.S. security and customs agencies announced that four men have been indicted for conspiring to send weapons from Philadelphia to Hizbullah operatives in Syria, as well as to provide the Iran-backed group with financial support and possibly false passports. The four men and six other people were also charged with transporting stolen goods, trafficking in counterfeit goods, and making false statements to government officials."
_

----------


## constituent

> And do you hold the British, Irish and Scottish to the same standard? Must each and every one of them trace themselves back to royalty in order to have a right to their national homelands??


You know, the funny thing is that I can draw my family tree back to individuals actually dispossessed of their land.  I take all your further blathering about Jewish Supremacy to mean that you cannot.

And yet, you will not find me advocating the internment and extermination of anyone.  It is a shame that you cannot be held to the same standard.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> You know, the funny thing is that I can draw my family tree back to individuals actually dispossessed of their land.


Whether I can trace my lineage to specific families who were dispossessed of land, why would I publish that for the likes of you? How does the fact that I do not make my family geneology public knowledge prove anything? I am arguing principles. If you want to publish your family geneology, have at it. There is more to the question of recovering a stolen national homeland, which was perpetrated by the Romans and subsequent empires against the Jewish people in their recorded efforts at ethnic genocide against us, than mere family geneology and dispossession from a farm or two, tragic as individual cases may be.




> I take all your further blathering about Jewish Supremacy to mean that you cannot.


I have never once mentioned the term "Jewish supremacy". Another favorite term applied towards Jews who wish to maintain their cultural and religious heritage by antisemites. 




> And yet, you will not find me advocating the internment and extermination of anyone.  It is a shame that you cannot be held to the same standard.


I have never advocated the internment or extermination of anyone. Insects are exterminated. I've always objected to that term as applied to people. I choose to use the term _murder_, which I have also never advocated for anyone. If you are accusing Israel of murdering Arabs, then you are reversing causality, which is a fallacious argument. Copy and paste any quotes by me where I advocate internment and murder. Self-defense against those who would murder Jews is not immoral in any sense.

My love for my own people does not equate hatred of any other people. Hatred of murderous ideologies, yes -- not people.

----------


## constituent

> Whether I can trace my lineage to specific families who were dispossessed of land, why would I publish that for the likes of you?


Have I been unkind toward you?  Or is it that you just know yourself to be above me?  

"The likes of you," indeed.

----------


## ElyaKatz

> Did they (the British, Irish and Scottish) try to boot natives out after being gone for 2,000 years?


As usual Amy, your facts are wrong. Jews have been consistently returning to Eretz Israel during the entire 2000 years since the Romans tried to destroy us. It was not until the Arab invasion of Eretz Israel around 636 CE that the Jewish farmer began to be forced off his land....




> Your litmus test to legitimacy is how much they wrote down?


Not a litmus test, only one of many facts I bring to bear.




> British heritage doesn't compare to Jewish heritage...that's rich. The only thing that exceeds your ego is your delusions of grandeur.


Ah yes, I forgot. To the likes of you, the only Jew who displays humility is a Jew who despises themselves and their history. I am aware of my people's weaknesses. I happen to love my history and my people, warts and all.

Goes to show you how little you know of Jewish history. I admire British history. I am a student of European as well as Jewish history. Having said that, the Brits don't have a quarter of what is written down that Jewish historians have documented...and most of it discusses the grandeur of the Brits. Contrast that to the Jewish people, who are honest enough to document successes and failures, a large departure from most of the ancient histories of nations, back when they could cover up the more embarrassing facts.

Bringing things back to the topic at hand, how much documentation is out there on the alleged "ancient" Arabs called the "Palestinians". Can't be. The "Philistines", from which the Romans chose to rename Judea, Samaria, Gaza and the Galilee, ... i.e. Eretz Israel, in order to complete their ethnic cleansing of Jews, were a Greek sea-faring people, possibly from Crete. The theories abound, none of them mentioning Arabs in this connection. As a distinct people, the Philistines have disappeared from the pages of history.

How many of your posts on this thread have addressed the topic of the thread Amy? I'm still looking for the proof of an ancient Arab people who called themselves "Palestinians". Where are those "Palestinian" kings, priests, prophets buried in Israel? And the Arab prophets? They're not in Eretz Israel. Why? Because, as their name suggests, Arabs come from Arabia, as the French come from France, the Poles from Poland, the Russians from Russia. Jews from Judea. Find an old German bible. You'll see it right in the text "Judenland". See how that works? 

Since the name "Palestine", the history of which I've very briefly summarized above, was only resurrected by the British when they were awarded what was dubbed the "Palestine Mandate" (the purpose of which was for the intensive farming and close settlement of Jews) and was applied either to the region or to the Jews living in the region, never to Arabs -- well, that's going to be a tough one.

_Why Palestinians are not descendants of the Philistines by Dr. Paul Eidelberg

"Gaza and the Gaza strip – a narrow piece of land on the southwest edge of Israel – are continuously mentioned in the news as a hotbed between the Jewish people and the Palestinians. The conflict began centuries ago.

"The city of Gaza was one of the first five cities occupied by the ancient Philistines (1.Sam 6:17). The cities of Ashkelon, Ekron, Ashdod, Gath and Gaza became known as the Philistine Pentapolis. Gath is the famous hometown of Goliath, the giant slain by David. Gaza is the place where Samson had his greatest humiliation (grinding meal in prison, Judges 16:21) and his greatest victory (the destruction of thousands of Philistines at his death, Judges 16:30). 

"Gaza is mentioned in ancient writings as the base for Egyptian operations in Canaan as early as 1469 B.C. According to the Bible its original inhabitants were the Avims (Deuteronomy 2:23). Their origin is unknown; some scholars associate them with Hivites. In the 12th century B.C. they were driven away by the Philistines. 

"Who were the Philistines? The word 'Palestine' means land of the “Philistines”. (Today many Arab settlers in Israel claim to be descendants of the Philistines.) Egyptian records refer to the Philistines as the 'Sea Peoples', who came from an area of the Aegean Sea, which is bordered by Greece and Turkey. In 1 Samuel 30:40 the Philistines are referred to as 'Cherethites' the Hebrew word form of Cretans (inhabitants of Crete). In Ezekiel 25:16 and Zephaniah 2:5 the terms 'Cherethites' and 'Philistines' are used parallel, a grammatical way of saying they are one and the same. The Philistines were descendants of Grecian sea-faring people, and definitely not Arab. The people who call themselves Palestinians today are of Arab origin – whose father is Ishmael.

"The city of Gaza was alternately ruled by the Egyptians, Assyrians, and Persians, but remained a Philistine city. In 332 B.C. Alexander the Great conquered the Philistine cities and sold its inhabitants into slavery. Only the territorial name 'Palestine' continued to connect the region with its past inhabitants.

"In a great battle fought near Gaza in A.D. 635, the Arabs conquered the Byzantines, who ruled the area at the time. Soon after, all traces of Philistine life faded away, and the history of the land became Arab, Jewish and Samaritan. 

"Gaza is rich in history, and regardless of the ethnic background of its inhabitants, it continues to be true to its name – a 'stronghold” against Israel.' "_

----------


## Old Ducker

> Don't get me wrong. I respect British heritage, find it extremely interesting. It is rich. However, it simply can't compare to my own people's. We've been around as long as the Chinese, and have been literate from _the beginning_ with a linear historical worldview, and a concurrent national sense of destiny long before other nations conceived of such notions.


Oh really?  Let's examine some facts and coincidences.

Fact.  The jewish upper class were taken to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar and held as captives for refusing to pay tribute.

Fact.  These jews were freed when Babylon was bloodlessly absorbed into the Persian empire by Cyrus.

Fact.  The second temple in Jerusalem was financed by Cyrus and his successor, Darius.

Probable fact:  The garden of eden is located in Iraq, near Babylon

Probable fact.  Abraham's home (which still exists) is in Iraq

Now lets look at some sililarities between judaism and zorastrianism.

Both are monotheistic
Both have good/evil duality, satan and Angra Mainyu
Judaism looks forward to the arrival of the Messiah, zoroastrianism teaches that the coming savior, the Saoshyant, will be born of a virgin and lead humanity in the last battle against evil.
Zoroastrians could neither burn nor bury the dead, because the soil and fire are both sacred; instead, they exposed the bodies of the dead, so that vultures could dispose of them without defiling the elements.  (A practice still oberved by zorasters in india). In traditional judaism dead were exposed, but this was only to allow the flesh to rot, after which the bones were stored in an ossuary - once again to avoid defiling the elements. 

These are just a few.  Now I ask you, which culture was in a better position to influence the other, the Persian Empire, the world's first superpower or the tiny nation of ancient israel?  And why did the Persian kings build the huge, expensive and magnificent second temple if not to honor the jews for adapting their faith?

Another story, concerns the three wise men who came to honor the baby jesus.  They were persian and their tombs were described by Marco Polo.  Could it be that the meaning of this episode is to honor the fulfillment of the zorastrian texts?  A symbolic passing of the torch from the old religion to the new...

PS, Zoroastrianism is a religion of the blood, meaning that it doesn't accept non-persian converts.

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## ElyaKatz

> Oh really?  Let's examine some facts and coincidences.
> 
> Fact.  The jewish upper class were taken to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar and held as captives for refusing to pay tribute.
> 
> Fact.  These jews were freed when Babylon was bloodlessly absorbed into the Persian empire by Cyrus.


While many of these Jews did remain in Babylon, they were not absorbed. In fact, the Babylonian Jews were especially proud of the purity of their lineage...lineage pure enough for most to marry into the Kohanim, who cannot marry converts. Any children of converts who are born Jewish may...

Then there is the Am HaAretz, who remained in Eretz Israel to consider. Lots and lots of Jews....still in Eretz Israel.




> Fact.  The second temple in Jerusalem was financed by Cyrus and his successor, Darius.
> 
> Probable fact:  The garden of eden is located in Iraq, near Babylon
> 
> Probable fact.  Abraham's home (which still exists) is in Iraq


Judaism recognizes Cyrus, as _a messiah_. The Jewish view of a messiah is not nearly as central to Judaism as it is in Christianity...or Islam or, apparently, Zoroastrianism. Cyrus is honored as a righteous gentile. Darius was the son of Queen Esther, thus he was a Jew. What point are you making? That Jewish history often occurred outside of Eretz Israel and that non-Jews often interacted with and affected Jewish history? So what? We've been all over the map. Not only that, our wanderings were prophesied in every case, and ended and will end as prophesied. And we don't mind honoring Righteous Gentiles one bit. This is part of the uniqueness of Jewish history and indeed, it is all recorded Jewish history.

Darius was the son of Esther and Achashverosh.

According to  Me'am Lo'ez the Persian King Darius I conquered Babylonia in 3389 (372 BCE). Cyrus succeeded Darius, his father-in-law in 3390 (371 BCE).
In 3391 (370 BCE), in order to avoid the same Divine wrath that caused the
demise of Nebuchadnezar and Balshazar before him, he immediately ordered
the rebuilding of the Temple. (It was 53 years since its destruction.)

Cyrus died before terribly much was accomplished, he was succeeded by
Achashverosh in 3392 (369 BCE), and the work was halted. Darius II was born in 3400 (361 BCE) to Esther and Achashverosh. Haman was killed in 3404 (357 BCE). Achashverosh died in 3406 (355 BCE) and Darius became king at the age of six. (Also see Daniel 9:1)

In 3408 (353 BCE) Darius II ordered the rebuilding of the Temple Jews were
allowed to migrate back to the Holy Land in order to rebuild their homes. 




> Now lets look at some sililarities between judaism and zorastrianism.
> 
> Both are monotheistic
> Both have good/evil duality, satan and Angra Mainyu


Judaim and Zoroastrianism differ very much on the nature of good and evil. In Zoroastrianism, these are competing entities. Within Judaism, it is recognized that all forces, good and evil, emanate from one all-powerful, loving G-d. To be more specific, there are no competing spiritual entities within Judaism. The "satan" is a prosecutor who works for the Almighty, not in competition with Him. This will making the reading of the book of Job more understandable.

That whole thing where an evil personage who is in competition with the Almighty named "satan" supposedly fell from the Heavens, that is from the NT, and from the Christian version of the Tanach, a mangled translation of the Hebrew. Get yourself an Artscroll Tanach and compare how a Christian OT translates the Hebrew, and then what the English translation is in the Hebrew...or if you can read Hebrew, then compare the Hebrew with the Christian OT....but a Strong's Concordance will not help you, as that is just a Christian OT broken down verse by verse...so same difference.

Thus, this antagonist named "satan" in both Zoroastrianism and Christianity does not exist in Judaism. So, when something evil happens, it is allowed by the Almighty...not caused by some evil angel...and it usually emanates from people, who He has given the freedom to do either good or evil.




> Judaism looks forward to the arrival of the Messiah, zoroastrianism teaches that the coming savior, the Saoshyant, will be born of a virgin and lead humanity in the last battle against evil.


Nothing within Judaism teaches that any messiah, whether it be a "messiah" of a given age, or the Messiah Ben David, to be born of a virgin. That is, again, a mistranslation of the Tanach. The Jewish messiah will lead the Jewish people to victory over the nations. There will be non-Jews and Jews fighting on both sides. The Jewish messiah is a messiah primarily for the Jewish people, with folks from the nations joining the Jewish people as lovers of the G-d of Israel, observing Judaism within the requirements of Righteous Gentiles, Bnei Noach.




> Zoroastrians could neither burn nor bury the dead, because the soil and fire are both sacred; instead, they exposed the bodies of the dead, so that vultures could dispose of them without defiling the elements.  (A practice still oberved by zorasters in india). In traditional judaism dead were exposed, but this was only to allow the flesh to rot, after which the bones were stored in an ossuary - once again to avoid defiling the elements.


I fail to see any significance in this point. Please elaborate.




> These are just a few.  Now I ask you, which culture was in a better position to influence the other, the Persian Empire, the world's first superpower or the tiny nation of ancient israel?  And why did the Persian kings build the huge, expensive and magnificent second temple if not to honor the jews for adapting their faith?


A quality within Judaism which is sorely lacking in many other religions is the recognition that wisdom can come from other religions and cultures, that G-d's light shines everywhere. Truth is truth, regardless of the source, and so Jews do not mind absorbing truth from other peoples as long as it does not contradict the Torah. Any similarities between Judaism and Zoroastrianism are due to this factor, as well as the fact that Zoroastrians obviously also learned from the Jewish community. Under Cyrus, there was a great deal of religious tolerance, but Jews did, for the most part, keep within their own communities.




> Another story, concerns the three wise men who came to honor the baby jesus.  They were persian and their tombs were described by Marco Polo.  Could it be that the meaning of this episode is to honor the fulfillment of the zorastrian texts?  A symbolic passing of the torch from the old religion to the new...


Jesus is perhaps a significant and relevant man to you. If the man existed, he was most likely a loyal patriot, *a pharisee*. Assuming the stories within the 100% NT are true, which I personally doubt very much, then once again, I fail to see any spiritual significance in Zoroastrians visiting him. It was a nice gesture. Those Zoroastrians can be quite polite, tolerant people.




> PS, Zoroastrianism is a religion of the blood, meaning that it doesn't accept non-persian converts.


Interesting. Well, Judaism does allow converts. Considering the restrictive lifestyle required in observant judaism, and the historical persecution of faithful Jews, not surprisingly, the takers are relatively few and far between. So one mark not in your favor, assuming you're trying to prove that the two religions are really one and the same, or that Judaism was "polluted" by Zorastrianism, or whatever it is you're trying to prove.

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## Old Ducker

> Interesting. Well, Judaism does allow converts. Considering the restrictive lifestyle required in observant Judaism, and the historical persecution of faithful Jews, not surprisingly, the takers are relatively few and far between. So one mark not in your favor, assuming you're trying to prove that the two religions are really one and the same, or that Judaism was "polluted" by Zorastrianism, or whatever it is you're trying to prove.


My point is that Judaism is largely a child of Zorastrianism.  

http://www.worldviewpublications.org...e/055/055i.pdf

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## ElyaKatz

> My point is that Judaism is largely a child of Zorastrianism.  
> 
> http://www.worldviewpublications.org...e/055/055i.pdf


Other way around. Judaism predates Zoroastrianism. Jews may have learned from the belief systems in Babylon, however it was Zoroastrianism, which developed later and then applied principles learned from Judaism.

The similarities between the two religions, as I have pointed out in detail, are not as great as you would like to believe. 

In any case, your contentions have nothing to do with whether or not there existed an ancient, Arab "palestinian" people. (See title of thread) Furthermore, these theories you entertain have nothing to do with the Jewish claim to Eretz Israel, any more than they have to do with the Iranian claim to Iran. It's entertaining to see how my claims are not addressed, in fact, studiously avoided.

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## Old Ducker

> Other way around. Judaism predates Zoroastrianism. Jews may have learned from the belief systems in Babylon, however it was Zoroastrianism, which developed later and then applied principles learned from Judaism.
> 
> The similarities between the two religions, as I have pointed out in detail, are not as great as you would like to believe. 
> 
> In any case, your contentions have nothing to do with whether or not there existed an ancient, Arab "palestinian" people. (See title of thread) Furthermore, these theories you entertain have nothing to do with the Jewish claim to Eretz Israel, any more than they have to do with the Iranian claim to Iran. It's entertaining to see how my claims are not addressed, in fact, studiously avoided.


Most scholars believe Zoroastrianism is older.  Zorastrian temples have been excavated in Iran dated to 2000 bc.  Religions are primarily spread by conquest.  Judea never conquered Persia <snicker>

As for the palestinians, I believe the populations have changed over the past few millenia.  However the only reason there has been no palestinian state is because it was a continual province of decendents of the roman, alexandrian, byzantine, ottoman empires until 1919.  A palestinian state is as legitimate as Jordan, Lebanon, Syria or any other former ottoman territory outside of Turkey.'

Your dilemma is to reconcile libertarianism with apartheid.  No matter how you dance around the topic, I don't believe it is possible.  I wouldnt have nearly the problem with zionism that I do if the jewish state crap were dropped.  Convert Israel into a non-ethnic state and let everyone just live in peace as equals.  That's the libertarian solution (leaving aside the anarchy vs minarchy stuff).

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## ElyaKatz

> Most scholars believe Zoroastrianism is older.  Zorastrian temples have been excavated in Iran dated to 2000 bc.  Religions are primarily spread by conquest.  Judea never conquered Persia <snicker>


Well, I could concede your point, perhaps Zoroastrianism is older than Judaism, or perhaps they are contemporary religions. I have read both theories. It's hard to say. My understanding has been that Zoroastrianism, at least, became more influential after the destruction of the first Temple in Jerusalem. 

I do not concede that Judaism is a child of Zoroastrianism. Polytheism and idolatry certainly predate Abraham's revelation that there is only One True G-d, but that doesn't mean Judaism is the child of idolatry...quite the opposite.

Certainly, the two religious systems could have had a syncretistic effect on one another. Again, this proves nothing in regards to Torah Judaism. As I've said, there has always been a certain willingness to acknowledge wisdom from the nations within Judaism.




> As for the palestinians, I believe the populations have changed over the past few millenia.  However the only reason there has been no palestinian state is because it was a continual province of decendents of the roman, alexandrian, byzantine, ottoman empires until 1919.  A palestinian state is as legitimate as Jordan, Lebanon, Syria or any other former ottoman territory outside of Turkey.'


You must first prove that there is an ancient Arab peoples called the "palestinians" -- by anyone, let alone themselves. There have certainly been many population changes in the region, with a consistent population of Jews throughout. Having said that, the region has only been under the sovereignty two Jewish commonwealths, with two Jewish Temples standing for 400 years each.




> Your dilemma is to reconcile libertarianism with apartheid.


If you had witnessed apartheid in South Africa, and life for the Arabs of Eretz Israel, you wouldn't honestly be able to refer to what goes on in Israel politically as apartheid. _Thus, I have no dilemma._ 

On the contrary, you have the dilemma -- as a libertarian -- if you support Hamas, Hezbollah and Fatah, along with their desired takeover of portions of Eretz Israel. Libertarians are allegedly against collectivist political systems such as fascism, communism etc. The Fatah is basically communist in its orientation, Hezbollah and Hamas are fascist. Have fun reconciling those systems with libertarianism.

Fighting fascists and communists who desire to murder every single Jew in Eretz Israel -- to the last baby -- is not apartheid. It's self-defense. 




> I wouldnt have nearly the problem with zionism that I do if the jewish state crap were dropped.  Convert Israel into a non-ethnic state and let everyone just live in peace as equals.  That's the libertarian solution (leaving aside the anarchy vs minarchy stuff).


First of all, the Arabs of Fatah, Hamas and Hezbollah do not want, nor will they allow anyone who is not Muslim to live in the region in peace. Don't believe the Jews? Ask the Arab Christians...but only when they're not afraid of a hammer coming down on their heads.

Second, it is natural for people to form societies which espouse common values. That is what the Jewish people have done, and that is what Americans have done. It is what makes the world interesting, what makes the Frenchmen French, the Japanese Japanese. Of course, an allowance of foreigners, as much as can be absorbed and still maintain a nation's uniqueness is the humane thing to do. But those immigrants have a contract with their adopted nation to respect that nation's character and values.

To force this multicultural utopian society with no common values, expressed in the old world as ethnicities and religions, is another method of stealing people's freedom. You think it virtuous to impose Americanism on a world that has no interest in the entire American model. They have the freedom to choose parts of the American model and reject others. How ironic, to espouse freedom, but only freedom as you envision it. There is also the freedom to remain different, separate.

Study Soviet history and their repression of ethnic minorities who wanted nothing more than to maintain their national, religious or ethnic (or all three) identities. People not being allowed to express their specific religious or national/ethnic identity themselves, especially as sovereign nations is a totalitarian ideal, not a libertarian ideal. This is what the EU has become...just a reinvented Soviet Union, only it is run by mensheviks instead of bolsheviks. 

Joining the Jewish people can be likened to someone not born in America, who must apply for citizenship, and go through significant hoops that someone born in America does not have to go through. It is my understanding, though I am no Torah scholar, that under the Torah, if a non-Jew does appear before a Bais Din, and swears an oath of loyalty to the Jewish people, the Bais Din can't turn them away, as long as they are sincere. This I learned from a video I watched of R' Meier Kahane. Yes, the allegedly racist Kahane...said he is bound by the Torah to accept the "ger toshav".

Unfortunately, Israel's laws are not yet based primarily on the Torah. That will come in time. Until then, the Jews of Israel are obligated to obey the secular laws of the state of Israel, just as we are obligated to obey the secular laws of any nation in which we reside, provided they are not contrary to the Torah. 

An example of a law opposing the Torah could be found in the obligation for Jews to circumcise their sons on the 8th day after birth. If circumcision was outlawed in the state of Israel, then the Jew's obligation would be to obey the Torah above secular law. When the Torah is applied again in Israel, it will be done from the grassroots up, not imposed from the top down. Judaism is a religion of example and persuasion, no coercion.

So, the Jewish system is different than the American system. Like I said, where is it engraved in stone that all nations must model themselves completely after the American system of government? Certainly, nearly all nations can learn from the American system, as it is arguably the most ingenious system of government ever devised by men. But to obligate the rest of the world to follow our example is a very "neo-con" notion, according to Alexander Haig.

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## ElyaKatz

> Have I been unkind toward you?  Or is it that you just know yourself to be above me?  
> 
> "The likes of you," indeed.


What an amazingly disingenuous question.You yourself know exactly what you have written in your responding posts to me. Yes...you have been more than unkind. Besides your utter rudeness towards me, your views strike me as antisemitic. Perhaps I am wrong, and if so, I apologize. If am am correct, then I feel no obligation whatsoever to assuage your feelings with an apology.

*Please note the following quote:*




> You know, the funny thing is that I can draw my family tree back to individuals actually dispossessed of their land.  I take all your further blathering about Jewish Supremacy to mean that you cannot.
> 
> And yet, you will not find me advocating the internment and extermination of anyone.  It is a shame that you cannot be held to the same standard.


Pretty damn insulting. No, it's more than insulting. Your comment to me was character assassination. 

You will not be able to find any quotes by me where I advocate anything you accused me of in the above citation. Considering the kind of $#@!ty stuff I'm accused of regularly by certain members of this site, because I am a proponent of Israel's right to defend itself against fascistic terrorists, as any other nation does, and indeed, has a right to exist as any other nation -- despite the last 2000+ years of attempts at quashing those efforts (we do persevere) -- I think your calling me on a phrase you have (correctly) interpreted as condescending reveals a personality so thin-skinned as to be unsuitable for a forum debate.

I have endured people, some obviously sadistic and small-minded, making grotesque comments about my character with fortitude and endurance, even allowing myself to feel kindness and compassion towards some who have insulted me, in spite of it all. I have received PM's from members who are amazed that I haven't delivered blow for blow. So, to answer your query as to whether I consider myself "above" you, to which I am assuming you wonder if I think I am better than you...well, that is for G-d to decide, isn't it? Judging by my posts and yours, I am overall, a much more polite person to debate than are you, if that is any measure.

I suggest you learn a little fortitude, endurance and politeness as well. Have a Happy Thanksgiving.

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## squarepusher

777

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## Dieseler

> 777


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/777_and...eister_Crowley





> BS"DVincent,Thank you for honoring me with your visit to my blog and your important comment. If you want an eye opener as to what is going on in America, I suggest you visit Liberty Forest, which is allegedly a Ron Paul support site, Libertarian in outlook. I think it might be in the process of being co-opted by a lethal combination of anarchists, jihadists and their allies, neo-Nazis and white supremacists. I've been fighting what seems an uphill battle to inform the membership at the site that their focus on the alleged "Zionist conspiracy" is a distraction put out there by elitist government forces who have no one's best interests at heart. They want fighting among all the various groups. It enables them to proceed with their power grab:One very informative audio I just finished to this effect, and the website:Steel on SteelAudio: "Trans-Nationalism "I'm not appreciated by most who participate in my threads at the site. I am, as John Loeffler put it so succinctly, a conservative with a strong Libertarian bent, and toss in a generous amount of liberalism in there, out of my concern for all the little people in the world who are suffering through no fault of their own. I was very attracted to what Dr. Ron Paul had to say during the last elections, however, many of his followers' beliefs re Israel, Jews, Judaism and Zionism are repulsive to me. Dr. Paul's silence on the matter is disconcerting to me as well.


http://www.backtype.com/url/elyakatz.wordpress.com

http://www.facebook.com/people/Elya-...00000429436926




> To: AmishDude
> 
>     Ron Paul is a Birchite. Anyone who is friendly to Israel is in on “the Conspiracy.”
> 
> Bingo. Although the term is usually “Bircher”.
> 
> That’s their term for themselves. I’m no longer a member, so . . . I say “Birchite.”
> 
> The JBS is the “blue lodge” of the anti-Semitic movement in America. They officially eschew anti-Semitism, of course (though they are certainly hostile to Israel), so they get lots of decent people as members. Then they expose them to anti-Semitic conspiracy theories via such people as Nesta Webster and Prince Michel Sturdza. Eventually the decent members get the idea that “the Jews” are really behind it all and turn on the JBS. The JBS then kicks them out (refurbishing their “non-anti-Semitic” credentials) and replace them with more decent people. But the point is, once decent people have been turned into anti-Semites. And the JBS couldn’t do this if they were openly anti-Semitic.
> ...


Birchite Lol.

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## Dieseler

//

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## Indy Vidual

_"No organization has done more to make anti-Semites than the Birch Society (and again, they couldnt do this if they were openly anti-Semitic)...."_

IMO, life is way too short for anything that twisted. 
Where can I sign up to get my apathy back?

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