# Lifestyles & Discussion > Peace Through Religion >  OSAS (Once saved always saved; eternal security)

## Kevin007

where do you fall on the debate about salvation? Can it be lost?

----------


## Brett85

I used to believe in eternal security but don't any longer.  However, I don't go to the opposite extreme and say that it's easy for someone to lose their salvation.  I just view my position to be a middle position between two extremes; one extreme being the idea of unconditional eternal security, that you can't lose your salvation no matter what you do.  Then the other extreme would be those who think that if someone commits a "mortal sin" and then dies immediately before they get a chance to repent, they'll go to hell.  I think the correct position is somewhere in the middle between those two extremes.

----------


## Kevin007

does the bible mention a mortal sin or a venial sin as the RCC portrays?

----------


## Brett85

> does the bible mention a mortal sin or a venial sin as the RCC portrays?


There's one verse, but it doesn't actually explain what the "mortal sins" are.

1 John 5:16

"If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that."

----------


## Kevin007

so how do you know when you lose your salvation? Jesus only covered 1,000 sins but on the 1,001 He had enough?

----------


## Brett85

> so how do you know when you lose your salvation? Jesus only covered 1,000 sins but on the 1,001 He had enough?


Well, at the very least, I think someone can lose their salvation if they stop believing.  You're not going to make it to heaven if you die an atheist, even if you were a believer earlier on in your life.  Jesus said that you have to persevere to the end to be saved.

----------


## Kevin007

> There's one verse, but it doesn't actually explain what the "mortal sins" are.
> 
> 1 John 5:16
> 
> "If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that."


this verse is speaking of when a Believer sees a fellow Believer sinning. the sin leading to "death" is a physical one imho, not a spiritual one, or losing your salvation.

----------


## Kevin007

> Well, at the very least, I think someone can lose their salvation if they stop believing.  You're not going to make it to heaven if you die an atheist, even if you were a believer earlier on in your life.  Jesus said that you have to persevere to the end to be saved.


this is not speaking about losing ones salvation. Many Christians do not persevere until the end. God does not "unadopt" one of His own.

----------


## Brett85

> this is not speaking about losing ones salvation. Many Christians do not persevere until the end. God does not "unadopt" one of His own.


So you're saying that someone can be an atheist when they die, and they can still make it to heaven simply because they were a believer earlier on in their lives?  I'm not trying to misconstrue your views.  I'm just asking if that's what you're saying.

And Jesus said that you have to persevere to the end in order to be saved.

Matthew 24:13

But the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

----------


## Kevin007

The believer lives under grace. This guarantees God's ability to bring to a conclusion what we cannot. We were not saved by our works, so we don't undo our salvation by works. One cannot keep themselves saved, since we didn’t save ourselves in the first place, we remain saved by grace, by His power.


 Salvation is a gift freely given apart from any human effort. It is of God only, not man.. lest they should boast. It was Jesus who took care of our security question. OSAS is very Biblical. Believer's are His sheep- He is the good Shepard and will not lose even ONE SHEEP.

----------


## Kevin007

> So you're saying that someone can be an atheist when they die, and they can still make it to heaven simply because they were a believer earlier on in their lives?  I'm not trying to misconstrue your views.  I'm just asking if that's what you're saying.



HOW CAN A BELIEVER THAN BECOME AN ATHIEST? (sorry caps lock)

*Its either eternal security or eternal insecurity.....*

----------


## Brett85

> HOW CAN A BELIEVER THAN BECOME AN ATHIEST? (sorry caps lock)


Well, there are all kinds of examples of pastors of churches who lost their belief and even became atheists.  Would you just say that these pastors were never true believers and were never truly saved to begin with?  It just seems like a stretch to me to say that someone who actually preached to others wasn't a Christian when he was preaching the gospel to others.

----------


## Kevin007

> Well, there are all kinds of examples of pastors of churches who lost their belief and even became atheists.  Would you just say that these pastors were never true believers and were never truly saved to begin with?  It just seems like a stretch to me to say that someone who actually preached to others wasn't a Christian when he was preaching the gospel to others.


were the Pharisees saved?


1 John 2:1 “I write to you that you may not sin and if anyone sins we have an advocate with the father.”

Of course many preachers are not saved; just as popes and priests. Is this surprising?

----------


## Brett85

> *Its either eternal security or eternal insecurity.....*


Not necessarily.  Like I said, my view is somewhere in the middle, in between unconditional eternal security and eternal insecurity.  We have eternal security as long as we remain followers of Christ.  But, we don't have unconditional eternal security in the sense that we can just live however we want to live and still be saved, or even lose our faith and still be saved.

----------


## Kevin007

> Well, there are all kinds of examples of pastors of churches who lost their belief and even became atheists.  Would you just say that these pastors were never true believers and were never truly saved to begin with?  It just seems like a stretch to me to say that someone who actually preached to others wasn't a Christian when he was preaching the gospel to others.



*1) They Are Not Called by God*

 The majority of today's Christian ministers are not called and sent  forth by God to preach the gospel. Rather, they are called and sent by  themselves. They send their resumes out to get a job, just like any  professional would do. They preach, not the true gospel, but a false  one. Paul saw such ministers in his day: "For if someone comes to you  and preaches a different Jesus, a different spirit, and a different  gospel, you put up with it" (2 Cor. 11:4; see also Gal. 1:6-9). They  came, uninvited, through the back door to contradict the gospel Paul  preached (see Gal. 2:4). They used the word of God for their own  benefit, as Paul implies: "Unlike the many [_hoi polloi_], we do not peddle the word for a profit" (2 Cor. 2:17). 
 False ministers have "a form of godliness but [deny] its power" (2  Tim. 3:5). They are empty shells. Their gospel has no power to save  anyone from sin. Paul warns, "Have nothing to do with them." They  "oppose the truth" and are "men of depraved minds, who, as far as the  faith is concerned, are rejected." (2 Tim. 3:8). God hands them over to  depraved minds to think and do what they should not think and do. These  self-called, self-sent false ministers are rejected by God.


*2) They Invent Their Own Gospel*

 False ministers preach a false gospel of their own invention, usually  based in psychology. Refusing to believe in the true gospel and the _solas_ (_sola scriptura, sola gratia, sola fide, solo Christo, soli Deo gloria_),  they preach an imitation gospel that sends people to hell. But we  preach the Scripture alone. A true Christian's authority is not the  Scripture plus something else, whether that "plus" is tradition, or  psychology, or claiming, "The Lord told me," or a dream, or a vision, or  a false miracle. Whenever there is a "plus," that preacher is going to  abuse and imprison people and make them his slaves. It is the true  preaching of the gospel that liberates us, as Paul declares: "It is for  freedom that Christ has set us free" (Gal. 5:1). We must preach  Scripture alone. True salvation comes by grace alone, through faith  alone, in Christ alone, from beginning to end. To God alone be glory!
 Any preacher who refuses to believe in the absolute authority of  Scripture as explained in the first chapter of the Westminster  Confession is a false minister. Everything he preaches will be false. 


*3) They Preach What People Want to Hear*

 A false minister preaches what people want to hear, not what God  wants them to hear. Most television and radio preachers preach a false  gospel. They do not preach regeneration, even though nothing else  matters unless we are new creations. They do not preach repentance,  total depravity, the law of God, the holiness of God, and, therefore,  God's demand for holiness. For God is holy; he is "the Lord who makes  [us] holy" (Lev. 22:32). If we are not living holy lives, we are not  Christians.


 False ministers do not preach a saving faith that leads to obedience  to God. They also do not speak of judgment and hell. Instead, they  preach autonomy, antinomianism, self-esteem, universalism, unconditional  love, psychology, emotionalism, and pure pragmatism, which says if  something "works," it is good. In American pragmatism, "works" means  making money and giving pleasure. They refuse to preach exclusivism,  that salvation is only through Jesus Christ. Instead, they entertain  people, trying to minister to their felt needs through rock music and  other forms of entertainment. They say man is not born a sinner; rather,  he is born good and, in fact, getting better every day. They say all  kinds of sexual activity is permissible before, during, and after  marriage, whether fornication, adultery, homosexuality, lesbianism,  bisexuality, or transgender sexuality.


http://www.gracevalley.org/sermon_tr...se_Church.html

----------


## Brett85

> were the Pharisees saved?
> 
> 
> 1 John 2:1 “I write to you that you may not sin and if anyone sins we have an advocate with the father.”
> 
> Of course many preachers are not saved; just as popes and priests. Is this surprising?


It's just hard for me to believe that someone who led others to Christ wasn't actually a Christian himself at the time that he led others to Christ.  I mean, I've heard stories of all kinds of evangelists who turned away and lost their faith.  It seems extremely unlikely to me that all these people were just never actually saved to begin with.

----------


## Kevin007

Jn.10:28 “I give them eternal life, and _they shall never perish_, no one shall snatch them out of my hand.”


 Rom.6:23  “For the wages of sin is death; _but the gift of God is eternal life_ through Jesus Christ our Lord.


 Jn.3:18 “_He that believeth on him is not condemned_: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


 Jn.5:24 “He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” One is made spiritually alive by having true living faith.

----------


## Kevin007

> It's just hard for me to believe that someone who led others to Christ wasn't actually a Christian himself at the time that he led others to Christ.  I mean, I've heard stories of all kinds of evangelists who turned away and lost their faith.  It seems extremely unlikely to me that all these people were just never actually saved to begin with.


post above yours...

----------


## Brett85

John 15: 1-4

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 *He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit*, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me."

To be cut off from the vine, you have to be on the vine to begin with.  Additionally, Terry1 has a long list of verses for the view that I'm presenting as well.

----------


## Brett85

It's nice to actually be able to have a civil discussion on an issue like this for once though.  I appreciate it.

----------


## Kevin007

> John 15: 1-4
> 
> "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 *He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit*, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me."
> 
> To be cut off from the vine, you have to be on the vine to begin with.  Additionally, Terry1 has a long list of verses for the view that I'm presenting as well.


this verse is misused. This passage is not talking about losing salvation. The branch can only bear fruit in the vine. Without Jesus, we can do nothing. A vine branch has one purpose; bearing fruit. The subject here is not SALVATION but abiding and FRUIT BEARING/SANCTIFICATION. This Christian is backslidden, but saved.

----------


## Kevin007

> It's nice to actually be able to have a civil discussion on an issue like this for once though.  I appreciate it.


 of course.. are you surprised? I'm civil 90% of the time TC....

----------


## Kevin007

> John 15: 1-4
> 
> "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 *He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit*, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me."
> 
> To be cut off from the vine, you have to be on the vine to begin with.  *Additionally, Terry1 has a long list of verses for the view that I'm presenting as well.*




i saw those, but again- those verses either are not in context or speaking of sanctification/obedience etc... bearing fruit and good works.

----------


## Brett85

> of course.. are you surprised? I'm civil 90% of the time TC....


Yeah, you seem to be easy enough to get along with.  Things will probably be a little more civil with a certain two posters banned for a month.

----------


## Kevin007

> Not necessarily.  Like I said, my view is somewhere in the middle, in between unconditional eternal security and eternal insecurity.  We have eternal security *as long as we remain followers of Christ*.  But, we don't have unconditional eternal security in the sense that we can just live however we want to live and still be saved, or even lose our faith and still be saved.


what is the checklist for this though? Imho and with much study; we all fall short; thus Jesus; thus OSAS.

----------


## Kevin007

> Yeah, you seem to be easy enough to get along with.  Things will probably be a little more civil with a certain two posters banned for a month.


LOL.... are the 2 sola and FF?

----------


## Brett85

> this verse is misused. This passage is not talking about losing salvation. The branch can only bear fruit in the vine. Without Jesus, we can do nothing. A vine branch has one purpose; bearing fruit. The subject here is not SALVATION but abiding and FRUIT BEARING/SANCTIFICATION. This Christian is backslidden, but saved.


I don't see how getting cut off from the branch and thrown into the fire isn't an example of losing your salvation.  That passage goes on to say that those branches that are cut off from the branch will be thrown into the fire and will be burned.  And in order to be cut off from the branch, you have to be on the branch to begin with.

----------


## Kevin007

> I don't see how getting cut off from the branch and thrown into the fire isn't an example of losing your salvation.  That passage goes on to say that those branches that are cut off from the branch will be thrown into the fire and will be burned.  And in order to be cut off from the branch, you have to be on the branch to begin with.


cut of by whom? God? or others who witness our poor testimony?

----------


## Brett85

> what is the checklist for this though? Imho and with much study; we all fall short; thus Jesus; thus OSAS.


Primarily trusting Christ as your savior and confessing your sin.  I think the Bible teaches that confessing your sin is a requirement to be forgiven of your sins.  The Bible always conditions forgiveness upon repentance.

1 John 1:9

"*If we confess our sins*, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

----------


## Brett85

> cut of by whom? God? or others who witness our poor testimony?


It seems clear to me that the passage is saying that they'll be cut off by God, since the verse goes on to say that they'll be burned in the fire.  I think that refers to final judgment in the lake of fire.

----------


## Kevin007

> It seems clear to me that the passage is saying that they'll be cut off by God, since the verse goes on to say that they'll be burned in the fire.  I think that refers to final judgment in the lake of fire.


I disagree; see David. Others "cast him into the fire" because he commited sin. He caused the enemies of God to blaspheme.

----------


## Kevin007

> Primarily trusting Christ as your savior and confessing your sin.  I think the Bible teaches that confessing your sin is a requirement to be forgiven of your sins.  The Bible always conditions forgiveness upon repentance.
> 
> 1 John 1:9
> 
> "*If we confess our sins*, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."


what if we forget to confess a sin?

----------


## Brett85

> what if we forget to confess a sin?


I don't think that you have to think of every specific sin and confess each individual sin.  You can just say a more general prayer of "God please forgive me of all my sins."  And I don't know how often Christians should do this, but I think that if a Christian just willingly sins for years and years, doesn't acknowledge that they're sinning, and doesn't confess their sin, it's possible for them to lose their salvation.  I don't really like the idea that I'm presenting either.  I would much rather believe in the once saved always saved doctrine, because it's much more comforting.  But, that's just not the conclusion that I've come to from studying the Bible.  There are maybe a handful of verses that I would say provide evidence for eternal security.  I think there are far more verses that demonstrate that it's possible for someone to lose their salvation.

----------


## Kevin007

> I don't think that you have to think of every specific sin and confess each individual sin.  You can just say a more general prayer of "God please forgive me of all my sins."  And I don't know how often Christians should do this, but I think that if a Christian just willingly sins for years and years, doesn't acknowledge that they're sinning, and doesn't confess their sin, it's possible for them to lose their salvation.  I don't really like the idea that I'm presenting either.  I would much rather believe in the once saved always saved doctrine, because it's much more comforting.  But, that's just not the conclusion that I've come to from studying the Bible.  There are maybe a handful of verses that I would say provide evidence for eternal security.*  I think there are far more verses that demonstrate that it's possible for someone to lose their salvation*.


There are approximately 85 passages in the NT for OSAS.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

AFAIK, the OSAS doctrine comes from peddlers of the "Prosperity Gospel"-people who "sold" various means of "salvation" for a profit.  It's not biblical (unless you do some serious mental gymnastics) and it's not a traditional Church teaching.

----------


## Miss Annie

I believe in OSAS.  I also believe that the "gardener" prunes branches that do not produce fruit so that they may in the future produce fruit.  When a branch is pruned, it grows back usually more fruitful than before.  Pruning is discipline, not an unadoption (Good word Kevin)

----------


## Kevin007

> AFAIK, the OSAS doctrine comes from peddlers of the "Prosperity Gospel"-people who "sold" various means of "salvation" for a profit.  It's not biblical (unless you do some serious mental gymnastics) and it's not a traditional Church teaching.


The OSAS doctrine comes from the Bible. Jesus Himself.


1 Jn.5:10: _He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself_: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. V.11: And this is the record, that _God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son_. 12: He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13: These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; *that you may know that you have eternal life*, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God.”

----------


## Kevin007

> I believe in OSAS.  I also believe that the "gardener" prunes branches that do not produce fruit so that they may in the future produce fruit.  When a branch is pruned, it grows back usually more fruitful than before.  *Pruning is discipline*, not an unadoption (Good word Kevin)


good point Annie!


Paul makes it clear that once God justifies the person, he cannot be condemned or lose his salvation (Rom. 8:1, 32, 33).

----------


## Miss Annie

> It's nice to actually be able to have a civil discussion on an issue like this for once though.  I appreciate it.


I couldn't agree more!  it was nice to read a post and not have my teeth clenched and knuckles white! LOL.

----------


## Kevin007

> I couldn't agree more!  it was nice to read a post and not have my teeth clenched and knuckles white! LOL.


I just love to talk and debate scripture without attacking the other person.....

----------


## Miss Annie

> I just love to talk and debate scripture without attacking the other person.....


Me too!  That is where true learning takes place!

----------


## Kevin007

> Me too!  That is where true learning takes place!


yes maam


in the most basic sense; why would God leave us hanging on the most important question? If we know we are saved; it frees us to go serve Him. GRACE is the pillar of the NT.

----------


## Terry1

> There are approximately 85 passages in the NT for OSAS.


With all due respect Kevin, I'd like to ask you just what attracts you to the OSAS doctrine, which is a creation of John Calvin?  Do you realize that this doctrine was *never* taught in the history of the Bible before John Calvin?

Also, I can provide you with literally hundreds of scripture that refute OSAS as I have already done in here that never give you absolute guarantee of being predestined to glory at the time of confession and belief.  They all indidate that "it might be", "may be" and that we "have the hope" based upon "remaining" and "continuing" to "abide" in Christ.  

So how do we "continue to abide in Christ"?  We do this by answering our calling in Christ via listening to what the Holy Spirit is telling us and we respond to that in obedience to God by doing what we have been spiritually called to do.  That is not a dead work.  That is what is called "FAITH".  Now what we do is done in response to what the Spirit of the Lord is calling us to do by what is written upon our hearts and not the letter of the Old dead Mosaic Law.  *Acts 13:39 
and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

*The most telling scripture amongst them all are Hebrews 6:4- and John 15:5-

The OSAS doctrine is attractive to believers because it gives them a sense of peace about their eternal destiny, but the real peace is the one that tells us that as long as we "continually abide" in Christ that we can rest in our salvation with assurance and not one that makes the statement that no matter what we do or how we treat others in this life we can still obtain eternal life.  That message was never taught until John Calvin, who being the murderous tyrant he was had to justify himself somehow before God for the things he had done.

----------


## Brett85

> With all due respect Kevin, I'd like to ask you just what attracts you to the OSAS doctrine, which is a creation of John Calvin?  Do you realize that this doctrine was *never* taught in the history of the Bible before John Calvin?


Well, I don't necessarily think if someone isn't a Calvinist, that they have to disagree with Calvin on everything.  When I first started posting here I wasn't a Calvinist, but I still believed in eternal security.  Agreeing with Calvin on that one issue certainly didn't make me a Calvinist.  There are quite a few 4 point Arminians who agree with the Calvinists when it comes to eternal security.  I think if the doctrine of eternal security is going to be disproven, it has to be disproven from the Bible, rather than just saying that we're supposed to disagree with Calvin on every theological issue.  I just changed my mind from studying the New Testament and studying this issue.

----------


## Brett85

> I believe in OSAS.  I also believe that the "gardener" prunes branches that do not produce fruit so that they may in the future produce fruit.  When a branch is pruned, it grows back usually more fruitful than before.  Pruning is discipline, not an unadoption (Good word Kevin)


It doesn't seem like that's what the verse actually says though.  The passage of the vine and the branches says that every branch that doesn't bear fruit is cut off and thrown into the fire.

----------


## donnay

> where do you fall on the debate about salvation? Can it be lost?


I don't believe that once saved always saved.  It's like saying because you are saved you have a "get out of jail" free card.

----------


## Terry1

John 15:

*5 “I am the vine, you are the branches.* He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.  6 *If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.*  7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will[b] ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.  8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

John 15: here is clearly telling believers (who are the branches of the True Vine)--if they do not abide in Christ, are cut off and burned.

This is synonymous with Hebrews 6:4 also that says here:

[B]Hebrews 6:4 For *it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit*,  5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,  6 if they fall away,* to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.*

Clearly this is telling us that it's possible to fall away and not be *RENEWED* (key word) to repentance.  Repentance is the only path back to God when we stumble in faith.

As TC right said---this does not happen easily because a believer who falls away has obviously done so for so long that only God knows they will not return to repentance and are cut off permanently from God.  The Apostle Paul confirms this also by telling us that it's most certainly possible to fall away.

When we look at the reasons why some will defend the doctrine of OSAS, they all revolve around the fear of losing their salvation--which by the way is the same fear that Gods word tells us is called "wisdom"---by fearing only what God can do and no one else.  That same fear is designed to keep us aware of what can happen to us if we stop abiding in Christ because we are still part flesh and blood which is capable at any point in this life of falling into temptation and away from God.

God gives a believer space and time to repent and only God knows when one will not return to repentance and He then turns them over to their own strong delusions.  Don't be fooled into believing that we are not accountable for what we say and do to others in this life, that is what the OSAS doctrine teaches--that no one can lose their salvation after confession.  That is not biblical.  We are accountable to God for everything we say and do to others in this life.  The word of God teaches all throughout that we will most certainly be judged by our deeds in this life both good and bad when the Books of Life and death are opened at judgment.  These deeds that we will be judged by are not the ones before we became believers--but only after we became believers are we held accountable to God.  

We have been instructed on how to continually abide in Christ via the Holy Spirit which is our only guide in this life.  If we stop listening to the spirit of the Lord and over a period of time--only God knows--we fall--we can be cut off.

----------


## Terry1

> Well, I don't necessarily think if someone isn't a Calvinist, that they have to disagree with Calvin on everything.  When I first started posting here I wasn't a Calvinist, but I still believed in eternal security.  Agreeing with Calvin on that one issue certainly didn't make me a Calvinist.  There are quite a few 4 point Arminians who agree with the Calvinists when it comes to eternal security.  I think if the doctrine of eternal security is going to be disproven, it has to be disproven from the Bible, rather than just saying that we're supposed to disagree with Calvin on every theological issue.  I just changed my mind from studying the New Testament and studying this issue.



Yes and that is why we should always use the word of God to back up what we believe and make sure that it reconciles with ALL of scripture instead of using one line of scripture that doesn't support the other--it's the only way to rightly divide the word of God.

----------


## RJB

I've never understood these either/or debates.  

I do have faith that God will always watch out for me, because the bible says so.

I also believe that I must persevere in following God's commands, because the bible says so.

----------


## donnay

People backslide all the time.  It's human nature-- you have to be in God's word daily.

----------


## Terry1

> People backslide all the time.  It's human nature-- you have to be in God's word daily.


Very true donnay.  It's a daily walk with the Lord in everything put our hands and hearts to daily.   God is patient with us as we stumble and He knows our hearts and understands our struggles.  He would never cut anyone off whom He knew would return to Him in faith and repentance.

----------


## erowe1

God, in multiple places in the Bible, gives us absolute promises that positively anyone who has been justified is guaranteed to be glorified, and that nothing can possibly prevent that. And nowhere does scripture even hint at the idea that any justified person could possibly not end up glorified.

It's a home run case. I don't even know why there's so much debate. God will not break his promises.

----------


## erowe1

> Well, at the very least, I think someone can lose their salvation if they stop believing.  You're not going to make it to heaven if you die an atheist, even if you were a believer earlier on in your life.  Jesus said that you have to persevere to the end to be saved.


So it all comes down to what you are at the moment you die?

You don't pretend to base this on anything in the Bible do you?

----------


## erowe1

> So you're saying that someone can be an atheist when they die, and they can still make it to heaven simply because they were a believer earlier on in their lives?  I'm not trying to misconstrue your views.  I'm just asking if that's what you're saying.
> 
> And Jesus said that you have to persevere to the end in order to be saved.
> 
> Matthew 24:13
> 
> But the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.


End of what? And saved from what?

In the context this is about the Tribulation.

----------


## Brett85

> So it all comes down to what you are at the moment you die?
> 
> You don't pretend to base this on anything in the Bible do you?


Yes, I do.  And we've posted verse after verse that you simply parse words in order to get around.

----------


## erowe1

> Yes, I do.  And we've posted verse after verse that you simply parse words in order to get around.


You say "parse words to get around" as if you can just make verses mean whatever you want and don't need to base your interpretation on reasons. You might want to look up the word "parse," since that's not what I did. But even if it was, parsing words is a very important part of interpreting anything.

Clearly Jesus wasn't saying that if you die at one moment of your life you'll go to Heaven, but if you go on living after that to die some later moment then you'll go to Hell.

Apparently your first sentence here is a true statement. You really do pretend to base this view on something in the Bible.

----------


## Brett85

> A nice list of scriptures here to refute the idea of eternal security thanks to the following 
> http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpr...-always-saved/
> 
> Topical organization of scriptures that refute “Eternal Security”
> 1 Parable of sower
> • Mark 4:16 (Luke 8:13) “And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; (they believe for a while) and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.
> 
> 2 Fallen from grace passage: • Galatians 5:4 “You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
> 
> ...


http://christianchat.com/bible-discu...-security.html

----------


## erowe1

> AFAIK, the OSAS doctrine comes from peddlers of the "Prosperity Gospel"-people who "sold" various means of "salvation" for a profit.  It's not biblical (unless you do some serious mental gymnastics) and it's not a traditional Church teaching.


That's not true. Generally prosperity Gospel proponents teach that you can lose salvation.

The Bible itself teaches (and teaches with unmistakable clarity) that everyone who believes in Jesus will not perish but have everlasting life.

If you look through the verses that people use to defend the idea that some people who have been justified will end up not being glorified (such as the list in the post above this), and you just ask yourself what they specifically do say and specifically do not say, you'll see for yourself that there's not a single one that mentions the possibility of anyone who has been justified not being glorified.

----------


## TER

Although it feels nice to believe in eternal security (after all, that is our hope, that we might find eternal salvation in Christ), the OSAS doctrine unfortunately is simply an innovative heresy that only serves to send people to perdition.  It is NOT the apostolic faith and needs to be rejected.  

The OSAS as doctrine originated with John Calvin's distorted theology, which was made possible by the faulty Western theologic understanding of 'Original Sin'.  This misunderstanding was first initiated by St. Augustine, given fuller development by St. Ambrose, and then used later to create this new heresy called OSAS by the Reformers, John Calvin in particular.  It simply is a distortion of the apostolic faith and the teachings of the early Church Fathers and the very notion of 'once saved, always saved' is completely absent in the patristic teachings.  When one proof texts certain verses in order to justify this heresy, they do so while disregarding and ignoring the overwhelming other verses of Scripture which contradict their misunderstanding, and also do so against the overwhelming Patristic witness.

----------


## TER

*Question:* 

I go to a Christian college and a lot of my friends discuss the “once saved, always saved” versus “salvation can be lost” controversy. What do Orthodox Christians think about this question? 



*Father Michael Gillis Responds:* 

To tell the truth, Orthodox Christians don’t think about this controversy at all - at least not in these terms. Discussions about “once saved, always saved” are based on a particular Protestant understanding of what it means to be “saved.” Orthodox Christians conceive of salvation quite differently than most Protestants do. 

For an Orthodox Christian, to be saved means nothing less than to participate fully in the divine energies of God. For most Protestants, to be saved means to have one’s sins forgiven so that one can go to heaven when he dies. This Protestant understanding of salvation is often spoken of in the present perfect tense and passive voice - “I have been saved” - because in the Protestant understanding, salvation is something God does without our participation (passive voice) that we “accept” at a particular point in time (present perfect tense). The controversy among Protestants is whether or not one’s condition as “saved” can be lost once “truly” received. 

In contrast, Orthodox Christians see salvation much more as a process that involves human participation, or synergy. That is, we cooperate with God in our salvation, much as a farmer cooperates with nature (and ultimately with God) in the growing of wheat. A farmer labors to prepare the soil and sow the seed in much the same way that an Orthodox Christian labors to control his body and mind (fasting), participate in the liturgical life of the Church (prayer), and love his neighbor (almsgiving). And in the same way that nothing the farmer does earns the rain nor makes the seed he has sown germinate, the prayer, fasting, and love of neighbor of an Orthodox Christian do not earn him salvation. They do, however, align him to receive the grace (divine energy) of God that comes to him. 

If you take a look at Ezekiel 11:18-19, you can see an example of this synergistic or cooperative work of salvation. In verse 18, God’s people prepare themselves by removing vile images and detestable idols, and in verse 19 God gives them new hearts of flesh. God’s people do not earn new hearts by their actions, but their actions prepare them to receive new hearts. Their actions cooperate with the grace of God. 

I must admit that words and concepts fail to explain these matters clearly, for our salvation is a mystery. Nonetheless, you can see that for Orthodox Christians, salvation is much more than just forgiveness of sins and going to heaven when we die. Salvation is the eternal (not merely lifelong) process of becoming more and more like our Savior. Consequently, “once saved” has no meaning in an Orthodox context. 

To frame the question somewhat differently, an Orthodox Christian might ask, “Can you stop cooperating with God?” Here the answer is yes. You can deny, rebel against, betray, and reject the grace of God. Even one of the Twelve betrayed the Savior. However, we must be careful not to point fingers or go looking for “Judases” in our midst. Much of what appears to be denial, rejection, or even blasphemy is merely evidence of a deep valley a person is passing through in which he comes to terms with his own weaknesses or sheds inadequate concepts of God (and in the end, all concepts of God are inadequate). I refer you to the complaint of Job, the initial rejection of the father by the prodigal son, the denial of Peter, and the doubting of Thomas. 

Salvation is not something that is merely on or off like a light switch; it is much more like the permeation of water into a sponge. Dryer, harder sponges need to soak longer (and perhaps in hotter water). The biblical exhortations not to harden our hearts (Hebrews 3:8 and many other places) are exhortations to cooperate with the grace of God. But “harden” and “soften” describe degrees, not absolute conditions. Salvation is not something that we gain in an instant and can lose just as quickly. Our salvation is a process, which we sometimes fully cooperate with and sometimes resist. May God help us always to cooperate.

----------


## RJB

> To tell the truth, Orthodox Christians don’t think about this controversy at all


I would say that this statement would be true for the vast majority of Christendom, aside from a few oddballs like us on the internet, of course.

----------


## Miss Annie

I don't feel the need to push my beliefs on anyone else, or "convince" anyone that I am right.   I know that we are supposed to "abide" and live Godly lives.... but I can't imagine doing anything but that.  My relationship with the Lord, I would describe as a romance.  I can't wait to see what song the Lord is going to give my heart to sing!  I long for his guidance and answers to my questions.  Life with Jesus is a beautiful dance.  It is difficult to understand what people consider the difficulty in abiding.   It is pure joy! 
When you meet the Good Shepherd, the last thing you want to do is run away.

----------


## TER

> I don't feel the need to push my beliefs on anyone else, or "convince" anyone that I am right.   I know that we are supposed to "abide" and live Godly lives.... but I can't imagine doing anything but that.  My relationship with the Lord, I would describe as a romance.  I can't wait to see what song the Lord is going to give my heart to sing!  I long for his guidance and answers to my questions.  Life with Jesus is a beautiful dance.  It is difficult to understand what people consider the difficulty in abiding.   It is pure joy! 
> When you meet the Good Shepherd, the last thing you want to do is run away.


That is beautiful Miss Annie, and you are blessed.  Your eternal salvation in this way depends on you continually living this faith and walking this walk.  However, unfortunately, not everyone who believes in OSAS follows you, and many will be lost on account of the sins they did while falsely believing to be 'already saved'.  That is the the great problem with this heresy and why it is dangerous to the faithful and why it must be rejected.

----------


## eduardo89

OSAS is not Biblical as was not taught for the first 1500 years of Christianity. I don't understand why some subscribe to this unbiblical and innovative theology.


*Assurance of Instant Salvation / Salvation as a Process*

*1 Corinthians 9:27*


> but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.


*1 Corinthians 10:12*


> Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.


*Galatians 5:1,4*


> . . . stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery . . . You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.


*Philippians 3:11-14* 


> that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own . . . I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.


*1 Timothy 4:1* 


> Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.


*1 Timothy 5:15* 


> For some have already strayed after Satan.


*Hebrews 3:12-14* 


> Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day . . . that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end.


*Hebrews 6:4-6*


> For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God, and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy . . .


*2 Peter 2:15,20-21* 


> Forsaking the right way they have gone astray; they have followed the way of Balaam, . . . For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.


See also 1 Samuel 11:6, 18:11-12, Ezekiel 18:24, 33:12-13,18, Galatians 4:9, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 6:11-12, 10:23,26,29,36,39, 12:15, Revelation 2:4-5

----------


## eduardo89

> does the bible mention a mortal sin or a venial sin as the RCC portrays?


Yes.




> If you see your brother committing what is not a mortal sin, you will ask, and God will give life to such a oneto those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin that is mortal; I do not say that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not mortal.


The Bible also refers to mortal sins which - if not repented of - will exclude one from heaven (1 Cor. 6:9-10; Gal. 1:8; Eph. 5:5; Heb. 12:16; Rev. 22:15).

----------


## eduardo89

> I've never understood these either/or debates.  
> 
> I do have faith that God will always watch out for me, because the bible says so.
> 
> I also believe that I must persevere in following God's commands, because the bible says so.


+rep.

That Catholic faith is not one about either/or as the Protestant faith is. I would say that is one of the most fundamental differences between us. 

This sums it up very well:




> *Either/Or -vs- Both/And*
> 
> This brings us to the "either/or" phenomenon found in some Christian groups. It appears to work like this: 
> 
> "*if* you don't believe that faith alone saves, *then* you must believe that you can work your way into Heaven (something Catholics are constantly falsely accused of believing),"
> "*if* you don't believe in sola scriptura, *then* you are a follower of the 'traditions of men',"
> "*if* you think we can cooperate in our salvation, *then* you're saying that Christ isn't enough,"
> "*if* you believe that one can freely turn his back on God, *then* you're denying God's omnipotence," etc.
> 
> ...

----------


## RJB

> +rep.
> 
> That Catholic faith is not one about either/or as the Protestant faith is. I would say that is one of the most fundamental differences between us. 
> 
> This sums it up very well:


  That Either/or article deserves its own thread and may need to be bumped in 30 days.  I've been pondering this for a while but didn't articulate it as well as the above..

BTW you're back in high form.  Enjoying Lent?

----------


## Kevin007

if being saved means holding up "your end" then it is not by grace we are saved but by grace and works. It isn't what we do that saves us, but what Jesus did that saves us.

OSAS means trusting fully in HIS FINISHED work at the Cross. Salvation is a free gift. Jesus isn't an indian giver. You do not "stay saved" by obedience as we all fall short; we all sin- every day. Jesus fulfilled every requirement and fully satisfied God's wrath against us, the sinner. When a believer is looked upon by the Father He sees Christ in us. Nothing we do or do not do can change our eternal security. The HS indwells every believer.

----------


## RJB

> *if* being saved means holding up "your end" *then* it is not by grace we are saved but by grace and works. It isn't what we do that saves us, but what Jesus did that saves us.


Why do you believe that?





> Either/Or -vs- Both/And
> 
>  This brings us to the "either/or" phenomenon found in some Christian groups. It appears to work like this: 
> 
>  "if you don't believe that faith alone saves, then you must believe that you can work your way into Heaven (something Catholics are constantly falsely accused of believing),"
>  "if you don't believe in sola scriptura, then you are a follower of the 'traditions of men',"
>  "if you think we can cooperate in our salvation, then you're saying that Christ isn't enough,"
>  "if you believe that one can freely turn his back on God, then you're denying God's omnipotence," etc.
> 
> ...

----------


## erowe1

> That Either/or article deserves its own thread and may need to be bumped in 30 days.  I've been pondering this for a while but didn't articulate it as well as the above..


What that article says either is right, or it is not.

Roman Catholicism is every bit as much either/or as any other religion or theological system is. Its either/ors shine forth in every canon of every creed, and the very views that article propounds could be formulated as either/or views just as starkly as the ones the article argues against. In fact, I could rewrite the whole thing, and use the same rhetoric to argue that evangelicalism differs from Roman Catholicism by the latter making everything either/or and the former being more nuanced. It would just be a simple matter of how I chose to frame the questions. I wouldn't really believe what I was writing, but I'm positive I could do it.

----------


## RJB

> What that article says either is right, or it is not.
> 
> Roman Catholicism is every bit as much either/or as any other religion or theological system is. Its either/ors shine forth in every canon of every creed.


Lots of people use either/or arguments, especially two who aren't here for 30 days.  I try my best to avoid these arguments.  I notice you do as well, and I commend you.

----------


## TER

> if being saved means holding up "your end" then it is not by grace we are saved but by grace and works. It isn't what we do that saves us, but what Jesus did that saves us.
> 
> OSAS means trusting fully in HIS FINISHED work at the Cross. Salvation is a free gift. Jesus isn't an indian giver. You do not "stay saved" by obedience as we all fall short; we all sin- every day. Jesus fulfilled every requirement and fully satisfied God's wrath against us, the sinner. When a believer is looked upon by the Father He sees Christ in us. Nothing we do or do not do can change our eternal security. The HS indwells every believer.


Kevin, I understand that is your belief. What me and others are trying to tell you is that this belief is an innovation and a distortion of the apostolic faith as believed, taught, and handed down from the beginning.  You are more then free to believe OSAS if you wish.  But you do so against the ancient teachings and witness of the Church and the saints of the past.  I, and others, refuse to consider this a teneble or acceptable option, that is, picking up an innovative doctrine (in a matter this important) which is _clearly_ unsupported and absent in the history of Christian worship and theology for 1600 years.  Proof texting to justify your position is simply not an acceptable option either.  Every heretical group going back to the Gnostics, the Arians, etc etc did the same thing.

----------


## Terry1

> if being saved means holding up "your end" then it is not by grace we are saved but by grace and works. It isn't what we do that saves us, but what Jesus did that saves us.
> 
> OSAS means trusting fully in HIS FINISHED work at the Cross. Salvation is a free gift. Jesus isn't an indian giver. You do not "stay saved" by obedience as we all fall short; we all sin- every day. Jesus fulfilled every requirement and fully satisfied God's wrath against us, the sinner. When a believer is looked upon by the Father He sees Christ in us. Nothing we do or do not do can change our eternal security. The HS indwells every believer.


Kevin, do you believe that we must act like Christians to be saved?

----------


## RJB

> It would just be a simple matter of how I chose to frame the questions. I wouldn't really believe what I was writing, but I'm positive I could do it.


You added this in the edit and I missed it in the above post. 

This is off subject, but your post has me thinking.  (My brain is a bit off too.  I'm on the 2 day of a 3 day apple only cleanse.    )

I've been told that I respect you because you never give a judgment on whether we're regenerate or not, but it is really your attempt to stick to your interpretation based on your understanding on the bible, history, logic, prayer, etc. 

Most arguments on this forum do stem from saying if one's opponent believes one thing he MUST believes another.  Yes Catholics use it too. * I wasn't commenting that one group uses it in exclusion to the other* (although the article may say that.)

Two people use this argument as probably 90% of their tactics.  Stereotypes aren't based on majorities, but the loudest, most obnoxious members.  I do cringe when I see attacks on Calvinists in general based on the action of a few.  I've come close to falling for it.  Lately when driving past a Reformed Church or when there is a homeschooling gathering at a Presbyterian church, I've found myself picturing an Army of the more vocal ones on the forum.  I've also found myself treating others such as yourself with less respect than I should because I lump you in with them.

Although I disagree on occasion, I am thankful for yours and Beorn thoughtful responses on this forum, and I have learned some good info from you guys.

----------


## Terry1

> You added this in the edit and I missed it in the above post. 
> 
> This is off subject, but your post has me thinking.  (My brain is a bit off too.  I'm on the 2 day of a 3 day apple only cleanse.    )
> 
> I've been told that I respect you because you never give a judgment on whether we're regenerate or not, but it is really your attempt to stick to your interpretation based on your understanding on the bible, history, logic, prayer, etc. 
> 
> Most arguments on this forum do stem from saying if one's opponent believes one thing he MUST believes another.  Yes Catholics use it too. * I wasn't commenting that one group uses it in exclusion to the other* (although the article may say that.)
> 
> Two people use this argument as probably 90% of their tactics.  Stereotypes aren't based on majorities, but the loudest, most obnoxious members.  I do cringe when I see attacks on Calvinists in general based on the action of a few.  I've come close to falling for it.  Lately when driving past a Reformed Church or when there is a homeschooling gathering at a Presbyterian church, I've found myself picturing an Army of the more vocal ones on the forum.  I've also found myself treating others such as yourself with less respect than I should because I lump you in with them.
> ...


Actually, I haven't seen any attacks on the Calvinists, but quite the opposite in here.  They're the ones who seem to always resort to attacking the person by calling them insulting names instead of attacking the message.  I've seen people defend themselves from these attacks by the Calvinists, but that's only expected when their person is being attacked and not the message.

----------


## RJB

> Actually, I haven't seen any attacks on the Calvinists,


There are blanket statements made about what "Calvinists" believe and their tactics.  The next quotation is an example:




> *They're* the ones who seem to *always* resort to attacking the person by calling them insulting names instead of attacking the message.


  It's really 2 - 5 (depending on your definition) who do, and these guys aren't representatives of "Calvinists."

----------


## Miss Annie

> Actually, I haven't seen any attacks on the Calvinists, but quite the opposite in here.  They're the ones who seem to always resort to attacking the person by calling them insulting names instead of attacking the message.  I've seen people defend themselves from these attacks by the Calvinists, but that's only expected when their person is being attacked and not the message.


I find it interesting that this thread has been just so dang peaceful!!  We can agree to disagree and it does not affect the kindness and respect ( or the affection that we feel ) for each other!  
TER and I disagree on this topic .....  But I adore the man.  
Terry and I disagree on this topic, but we still treat each other like sweet sistahs. 
Eduardo and I disagree on this topic and he is still charming. 
TC and I disagree on this topic and he is still so kind. 
There is no judgement.  Just fair and honest discussion!   What a breath of fresh air!!

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> I don't believe that once saved always saved.  It's like saying because you are saved you have a "get out of jail" free card.


+rep

----------


## erowe1

Doesn't the word "forgive" mean get out of jail free?

I have a hard time seeing how that's an argument against the view. Seems like a point in its favor.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> OSAS is not Biblical as was not taught for the first 1500 years of Christianity. I don't understand why some subscribe to this unbiblical and innovative theology.
> 
> 
> *Assurance of Instant Salvation / Salvation as a Process*
> 
> *1 Corinthians 9:27*
> *1 Corinthians 10:12*
> *Galatians 5:1,4*
> *Philippians 3:11-14* 
> ...


+mega rep  ~hugs~

----------


## Nang

Clarification:

Calvin and all the Reformers believe eternal security comes from God; not from human works of obedience.  It is the doctrine called "Perseverance" or "Preservation" of the Saints.

Christians will endure all enemies and will overcome all spiritual obstacles by the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit = PERSEVERANCE

Christians are* guaranteed* everlasting life without fail because Christ has died for them on the cross (Justification); Christ rose from the dead as their *Surety,* that they too will without fail be resurrected bodily to glory; and because *the Holy Spirit has sealed* them and protects them and guides them into all truth, which prevents any falling away from grace = PRESERVATION

Every single saint, from Genesis through the N.T. has persevered in faith and has been kept in faith, unto everlasting life.  You can read about many of them in Hebrews Chapter 11.

So eternal security has always been known to the sons of God, whether O.T. or N.T.   This is not a new, nor an innovative doctrine as TER would suggest.

Calvin did not "invent" this doctrine; let alone did he invent OSAS, which is a different view of eternal security than the Reformed doctrine of "Perseverance/Preservation Of The Saints."

Unfortunately, many hold to OSAS thinking that once they make a decision to "accept Christ," their moral duties are ended, and they can live lawlessly and commit sins with impunity.  Not all, like Kevin and Annie think this way, but many do.  Kevin and Annie are actually agreeing with we Reformers, by giving God all the glory for keeping them unto everlasting life, which they know they cannot lose.

To claim that believers must work to eventually and ultimately stay saved, is denial of grace altogether.  It is a life lived in fear, worry, and unbelief in God's covenant promise of sanctifying grace that leads only to everlasting life.  (John 3:16)  It totally overlooks the fact that all Christians have been adopted into the royal family of God.  There is no undoing of this adoption as Kevin has pointed out.  Denial of eternal security is wrong.

Christians:    Do not be discouraged by those who would attempt to rob you of this *blessed assurance!*

Ephesians 1:13-14
II Corinthians 1:22, 5:5
I John 2:18-20

----------


## Nang

> Kevin, I understand that is your belief. What me and others are trying to tell you is that this belief is an innovation and a distortion of the apostolic faith as believed, taught, and handed down from the beginning.  You are more then free to believe OSAS if you wish.  But you do so against the ancient teachings and witness of the Church and the saints of the past.  I, and others, refuse to consider this a teneble or acceptable option, that is, picking up an innovative doctrine (in a matter this important) which is _clearly_ unsupported and absent in the history of Christian worship and theology for 1600 years.  Proof texting to justify your position is simply not an acceptable option either.  Every heretical group going back to the Gnostics, the Arians, etc etc did the same thing.


Who are you to tell Kevin how to post?  Do you consider yourself our superior?

Kevin gives Holy Scriptures as evidence of his beliefs.

That is far better than handing out quotes from dead sinners as proof texts.

----------


## TER

> Who are you to tell Kevin how to post?  Do you consider yourself our superior?
> 
> Kevin gives Holy Scriptures as evidence of his beliefs.
> 
> That is far better than handing out quotes from dead sinners as proof texts.


Hello Nang.  I wish you a blessed Holy Wednesday.

----------


## Terry1

> Hello Nang.  I wish you a blessed Holy Wednesday.


TER---you are so much stronger than I am.  I had to sit on my hands to avoid that one.

----------


## Brett85

> Who are you to tell Kevin how to post?  Do you consider yourself our superior?


I don't see where TER said anything remotely resembling what you claimed he said.

----------


## Nang

> I don't see where TER said anything remotely resembling what you claimed he said.



Maybe it is because his halo is blinding you . . .

----------


## Brett85

> Jesus isn't an indian giver. You do not "stay saved" by obedience as we all fall short; we all sin- every day.


The Bible says that every person has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, but where in the Bible does it say that we sin "every day?"  I've never read a passage which states that.  We're certainly sinners who are saved by the blood of Christ, but I don't see where you get the idea that every single person sins "every single day."  When you look at the story of Job in the Bible, he didn't sin the entire time that Satan was tempting him.  He went through that entire time of testing without committing a sin.  The Bible describes him as being "blameless and upright."  It's true that none of us are without sin, but I don't really see any basis in the Bible for saying that no one can go a single day without sinning.  I don't think it's impossible for someone to go a day or several days without sinning, or whatever period of time.  You should keep in mind the verse that says "I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength."

----------


## TER

> Maybe it is because his halo is blinding you . . .


I don't have a halo, dear Nang.  I am a wretched sinner.  And if not for the mercy of God, I will die in my sins.

I don't wish to have hostility between us, especially on such a holy night.  Please let us be friends.

----------


## Nang

> I don't have a halo, dear Nang.  I am a wretched sinner.  And if not for the mercy of God, I will die in my sins.
> 
> I don't wish to have hostility between us, especially on such a holy night.  Please let us be friends.



If you consider this to be such a holy day, you should not be posting on this forum on this day, or misrepresenting the history and beliefs of others, and criticizing those who reference Holy Scripture as evidence of their beliefs.

Why?  Because you come across as fake . . .

----------


## RJB

This thread has taken its usual odd turn...

----------


## Terry1

> This thread has taken its usual odd turn...


Yeah--look who showed up with the name calling and insults.  I certainly won't defend any of them.

----------


## TER

> If you consider this to be such a holy day, you should not be posting on this forum on this day, or misrepresenting the history and beliefs of others, and criticizing those who reference Holy Scripture as evidence of their beliefs.
> 
> Why?  Because you come across as fake . . .


I actually am waiting for my wife to get dressed so that we can go to Church now.  The three little ones seem to always get ready before her! lol

  Tonight Orthodox Christians all over the world are receiving the sacrament of Holy Unction (Holy Oil) for the healing of our souls and bodies.  Such a blessed gift given by God for the faithful.  We will sing psalms and prayers in anticipation of tomorrow, another holy day.  It will be a busy next few days!  

Anyway, just got the word from my dear wife that she is ready.  Time to go!  Goodnight Nang, and God bless.

----------


## Brett85

> If you consider this to be such a holy day, you should not be posting on this forum on this day, or misrepresenting the history and beliefs of others, and criticizing those who reference Holy Scripture as evidence of their beliefs.
> 
> Why?  Because you come across as fake . . .


Why do you choose to turn this into yet another thread of back and forth insults?

----------


## RJB

> Yeah--look who showed up with the name calling and insults.  I certainly won't defend any of them.


I wasn't defending "them" who help instigate most of this mess by any means.   I was defending those who get lumped in with them.

----------


## Terry1

> If you consider this to be such a holy day, you should not be posting on this forum on this day, or misrepresenting the history and beliefs of others, and criticizing those who reference Holy Scripture as evidence of their beliefs.
> 
> Why?  Because you come across as fake . . .


...

----------


## Terry1

> I actually am waiting for my wife to get dressed so that we can go to Church now.  The three little ones seem to always get ready before her! lol
> 
>   Tonight Orthodox Christians all over the world are receiving the sacrament of Holy Unction (Holy Oil) for the healing of our souls and bodies.  Such a blessed gift given by God for the faithful.  We will sing psalms and prayers in anticipation of tomorrow, another holy day.  It will be a busy next few days!  
> 
> Anyway, just got the word from my dear wife that she is ready.  Time to go!  Goodnight Nang, and God bless.


Have a wonderful time at church TER--God Bless!

----------


## RJB

> I actually am waiting for my wife to get dressed so that we can go to Church now.  The three little ones seem to always get ready before her! lol
> 
>   Tonight Orthodox Christians all over the world are receiving the sacrament of Holy Unction (Holy Oil) for the healing of our souls and bodies.  Such a blessed gift given by God for the faithful.  We will sing psalms and prayers in anticipation of tomorrow, another holy day.  It will be a busy next few days!  
> 
> Anyway, just got the word from my dear wife that she is ready.  Time to go!  Goodnight Nang, and God bless.


  God bless you as well.

----------


## Kotin

> If you consider this to be such a holy day, you should not be posting on this forum on this day, or misrepresenting the history and beliefs of others, and criticizing those who reference Holy Scripture as evidence of their beliefs.
> 
> Why?  Because you come across as fake . . .



Please be respectful and keep it civil.

----------


## eduardo89

> If you consider this to be such a holy day, you should not be posting on this forum on this day, or misrepresenting the history and beliefs of others, and criticizing those who reference Holy Scripture as evidence of their beliefs.
> 
> Why?  Because you come across as fake . . .


The Circumcisers, the Gnostics, the Arians, the Montanists, the Sabellianists, Pelagius, the Nestorians, the Monophysites, the Albigensians *all* have used Holy Scripture to defend their heresies. They have all, at the same time, taught things in direct opposition to the Apostolic Faith handed down by the Church and her Saints through the centuries.

Fortunately, we have Christs promise that heresies will never prevail against the Church, for he told Peter, "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). The Church is truly, in Pauls words, "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

----------


## Kevin007

> Kevin, I understand that is your belief. What me and others are trying to tell you is that this belief is an innovation and a distortion of the apostolic faith as believed, taught, and handed down from the beginning.  You are more then free to believe OSAS if you wish.  But you do so against the ancient teachings and witness of the Church and the saints of the past.  I, and others, refuse to consider this a teneble or acceptable option, that is, picking up an innovative doctrine (in a matter this important) which is _clearly_ unsupported and absent in the history of Christian worship and theology for 1600 years.  Proof texting to justify your position is simply not an acceptable option either.  Every heretical group going back to the Gnostics, the Arians, etc etc did the same thing.


how is it proof texting? The entire Bible shows grace by faith, not of works. Jesus said to believe in Him and be saved; we have eternal life when we put our faith in Jesus.

I want to refute one by one these so called verses about losing one's salvation. Shoot.

----------


## Kevin007

> The Circumcisers, the Gnostics, the Arians, the Montanists, the Sabellianists, Pelagius, the Nestorians, the Monophysites, the Albigensians *all* have used Holy Scripture to defend their heresies. They have all, at the same time, taught things in direct opposition to the Apostolic Faith handed down by the Church and her Saints through the centuries.
> 
> Fortunately, we have Christ’s promise that heresies will never prevail against the Church, for he told Peter, "*You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18).* The Church is truly, in Paul’s words, "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).


And here it is folks You base the entire RCC on ONE verse! (taken out of context!) It is truly amazing! Jesus was referring to Himself, not Peter! READ the entire passage in context.

The rock is Peter's confession that Jesus is the Son of the Living God, the truth on which the church was founded. Eph 2:20 says that the church is built on Jesus.

----------


## Kevin007

> With all due respect Kevin, I'd like to ask you just what attracts you to the OSAS doctrine, which is a creation of John Calvin?  Do you realize that this doctrine was *never* taught in the history of the Bible before John Calvin?
> 
> Also, I can provide you with literally hundreds of scripture that refute OSAS as I have already done in here that never give you absolute guarantee of being predestined to glory at the time of confession and belief.  They all indidate that "it might be", "may be" and that we "have the hope" based upon "remaining" and "continuing" to "abide" in Christ.  
> 
> So how do we "continue to abide in Christ"?  We do this by answering our calling in Christ via listening to what the Holy Spirit is telling us and we respond to that in obedience to God by doing what we have been spiritually called to do.  That is not a dead work.  That is what is called "FAITH".  Now what we do is done in response to what the Spirit of the Lord is calling us to do by what is written upon our hearts and not the letter of the Old dead Mosaic Law.  *Acts 13:39 
> and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
> 
> *The most telling scripture amongst them all are Hebrews 6:4- and John 15:5-
> 
> The OSAS doctrine is attractive to believers because it gives them a sense of peace about their eternal destiny, but the real peace is the one that tells us that as long as we "continually abide" in Christ that we can rest in our salvation with assurance and not one that makes the statement that no matter what we do or how we treat others in this life we can still obtain eternal life.  That message was never taught until John Calvin, who being the murderous tyrant he was had to justify himself somehow before God for the things he had done.


The point your missing is salvation is not dependent on obedience and laws, but sanctification and growing in Jesus is. Actually Jesus fulfilled the Law, so there is that.

The entire Bible is based on OSAS. Why do you even bring up Calvin?

----------


## Kevin007

> I don't believe that once saved always saved.  It's like saying because you are saved you have a "get out of jail" free card.


I guess you missed this passage then?


*Romans 6:1-6*King James Version (KJV)

 6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore  we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was  raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also  should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing  this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin  might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

----------


## Brett85

> how is it proof texting? The entire Bible shows grace by faith, not of works. Jesus said to believe in Him and be saved; we have eternal life when we put our faith in Jesus.


We should put our faith in Christ and what he did for us.  At the same time, the Bible teaches that real faith is an obedient faith.  No one can ever be perfectly obedient, but we're supposed to do our best.  Jesus said, "if you love me, you will obey my commandments."  So if we willingly disobey Jesus' commandments and aren't repentant about it, then it's a sign that we don't truly love Christ and appreciate what he did for us on the cross.

John 14:16

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."

----------


## eduardo89

> The entire Bible is based on OSAS.


If the Bible teaches it then why is that teaching absent from the first 1600 years of Christianity?

----------


## Kevin007

in Galatians 3:3  when he asks, "Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are  you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" If we are saved by  faith, our salvation is also maintained and secured by faith. We cannot  earn our own salvation. Therefore, neither can we earn the maintenance  of our salvation. It is God who maintains our salvation (Jude 24). It is God's hand that holds us firmly in His grasp (John 10:28-29). It is God's love that nothing can separate us from (Romans 8:38-39).
Read more:  http://www.gotquestions.org/license-...#ixzz2z6l5IWyz

----------


## Kevin007

> If the Bible teaches it then why is that teaching absent from the first 1600 years of Christianity?


what are you talking about? Eternal Security was preached by Jesus and the Apostles- look in the Word.

----------


## Kevin007

> We should put our faith in Christ and what he did for us.  At the same time, the Bible teaches that real faith is an obedient faith.  No one can ever be perfectly obedient, but we're supposed to do our best.  Jesus said, "if you love me, you will obey my commandments."  So if we willingly disobey Jesus' commandments and aren't repentant about it, then it's a sign that we don't truly love Christ and appreciate what he did for us on the cross.
> 
> John 14:16
> *
> "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."*




and your point?

----------


## eduardo89

> And here it is folks You base the entire RCC on ONE verse! (taken out of context!) It is truly amazing! Jesus was referring to Himself, not Peter! READ the entire passage in context.


I'll take the interpretation of Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Cyprian, Cyril of Jerusalem, Jerome, and Augustine over yours...

----------


## Brett85

> [/B]
> 
> and your point?


My point is that works are important.  Our actions are important.  Faith alone without any works to show for it is dead.  Our works are the evidence for our faith, so it's important that we live out our faith and do good works, to demonstrate that our faith is real and alive.  There's a saying that goes, "if you were arrested for being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you?"  Works are part of faith, because they demonstrate that we have faith.

----------


## Kevin007

> John 15:
> 
> *5 “I am the vine, you are the branches.* He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.  6 *If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.*  7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will[b] ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.  8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
> 
> John 15: here is clearly telling believers (who are the branches of the True Vine)--if they do not abide in Christ, are cut off and burned.
> 
> This is synonymous with Hebrews 6:4 also that says here:
> 
> [B]Hebrews 6:4 For *it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit*,  5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,  6 if they fall away,* to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.*
> ...


"I give them eternal life, and they shall  never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.  My Father, who has  given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my  Father's hand" (John 10:28-29b)



Romans 8:38-39,  "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor  demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither  height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to  separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Hebrews 6 is not talking about losing salvation.


Anyone who departs the faith is demonstrating that he never truly was a Christian (1 John 2:19)

----------


## eduardo89

> what are you talking about? Eternal Security was preached by Jesus and the Apostles- look in the Word.


Except it is not found in the Bible and was not taught by Jesus, the Apostles or the Church Fathers. It is an innovative theology which sprouted up 1600 years after Jesus established His Church on earth.

----------


## Kevin007

> My point is that works are important.  Our actions are important.  Faith alone without any works to show for it is dead.  Our works are the evidence for our faith, so it's important that we live out our faith and do good works, to demonstrate that our faith is real and alive.  There's a saying that goes, "if you were arrested for being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you?"  Works are part of faith, because they demonstrate that we have faith.


WORKS SANCTIFY, not save- only Jesus does.

----------


## Brett85

> "I give them eternal life, and they shall  never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.  My Father, who has  given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my  Father's hand" (John 10:28-29b)[LEFT][COLOR=#000000]


No one can snatch them from his hand, but they can choose to leave his hand on their own.

----------


## Kevin007

> Except it is not found in the Bible and was not taught by Jesus, the Apostles or the Church Fathers. It is an innovative theology which sprouted up 1600 years after Jesus established His Church on earth.


see my above posts friend

----------


## Kevin007

> No one can snatch them from his hand, but they can choose to leave his hand on their own.


nope.

----------


## Kevin007

> I'll take the interpretation of Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Cyprian, Cyril of Jerusalem, Jerome, and Augustine over yours...


I'll take Jesus' over theirs and yours

----------


## Brett85

> WORKS SANCTIFY, not save- only Jesus does.


But can someone be a Christian and make it into heaven if they refuse to participate in the sanctification process?  Are you saved simply by a one time confession of faith, even if you do nothing at all after that?

----------


## Brett85

> nope.


So you don't believe in the concept of free will?

----------


## eduardo89

> I'll take Jesus' over theirs and yours


No, you'll take your faulty interpretation of your translation of Jesus' words over that of the fathers, martyrs, and saints of the Church.

----------


## Kevin007

> OSAS is not Biblical as was not taught for the first 1500 years of Christianity. I don't understand why some subscribe to this unbiblical and innovative theology.
> 
> 
> *Assurance of Instant Salvation / Salvation as a Process*
> 
> *1 Corinthians 9:27*
> *1 Corinthians 10:12*
> *Galatians 5:1,4*
> *Philippians 3:11-14* 
> ...


none of those verses means losing your salvation.

----------


## Kevin007

I find freedom in fully trusting in Jesus for my salvation

----------


## eduardo89

> none of those verses means losing your salvation.


Well, you convinced me now.

----------


## Kevin007

> Kevin, do you believe that we must act like Christians to be saved?


acting like Christians is proof we are saved.

----------


## Nang

Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox's think that Christianity began with them.

Not so.

Christianity began with the first promise of the Savior (the Christ of God), who would rectify the damage done in the garden.  Genesis 3:15-16

----------


## Kevin007

> Well, you convinced me now.


  we can go over one by one if you like?

----------


## Kevin007

> Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox's think that Christianity began with them.
> 6
> Not so.
> 
> Christianity began with the first promise of the Savior (the Christ of God), who who rectify the damage done in the garden.  Genesis 3:15-16


hi Nang!

----------


## Nang

> we can go over one by one if you like?



And I have your back, dear brother!

Nang

----------


## eduardo89

> Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox's think that Christianity began with them.


I don't see where you get that. We just don't believe in ignoring the first 1600 years of Christianity and the faith that the Church Fathers, Saints, and Martyrs passed down over the centuries. We just don't believe in the faulty, dangerous, innovative theology formulated in the fallible minds of the Protestant Deformers.

----------


## Kevin007

> Who are you to tell Kevin how to post?  Do you consider yourself our superior?
> 
> Kevin gives Holy Scriptures as evidence of his beliefs.
> 
> That is far better than handing out quotes from dead sinners as proof texts.


thanks Nang.

----------


## Kevin007

> I find it interesting that this thread has been just so dang peaceful!!  We can agree to disagree and it does not affect the kindness and respect ( or the affection that we feel ) for each other!  
> TER and I disagree on this topic .....  But I adore the man.  
> Terry and I disagree on this topic, but we still treat each other like sweet sistahs. 
> Eduardo and I disagree on this topic and he is still charming. 
> TC and I disagree on this topic and he is still so kind. 
> There is no judgement.  Just fair and honest discussion!   What a breath of fresh air!!


maybe its cuz I started it?

----------


## Brett85

@Kevin007-I'd still like an answer to my question.  Let's say that someone attended a Billy Graham crusade and went up to the front of the arena on the stage and said the prayer of salvation.  That person had a one time statement of faith where they said they accepted Christ as their Savior, that they believe that Jesus died for their sins and rose again.  Then let's say that after that, that person never picks up their Bible to read it or prays, never attends church, never gives a single dime to charity, lives a lifestyle full of sin, etc.  Is that person saved and going to make it to heaven?

----------


## Kevin007

> +rep


http://www.gotquestions.org/license-sin.html

----------


## Kevin007

> @Kevin007-I'd still like an answer to my question.  Let's say that someone attended a Billy Graham crusade and went up to the front of the arena on the stage and said the prayer of salvation.  That person had a one time statement of faith where they said they accepted Christ as their Savior, that they believe that Jesus died for their sins and rose again.  Then let's say that after that, that person never picks up their Bible to read it or prays, never attends church, never gives a single dime to charity, lives a lifestyle full of sin, etc.  Is that person is saved and going to make it to heaven?


not possible. The HS changes them.

----------


## Kevin007

> I don't see where you get that. We just don't believe in ignoring the first 1600 years of Christianity and the faith that the Church Fathers, Saints, and Martyrs passed down over the centuries. We just don't believe in the faulty, dangerous, innovative theology formulated in the fallible minds of the Protestant Deformers.


we just don't believe in ignoring the Word of God and believing in works based salvation and manmade traditions

----------


## Brett85

> not possible. The HS changes them.


But it's possible, because there have been a lot of examples of people that have had a one time statement of faith like that but haven't changed their lives in any way at all.  So it's important that a statement of faith be backed up by works, by how we live our lives.

----------


## eduardo89

> we just don't believe in ignoring the Word of God and believing in works based salvation and manmade traditions


We're in agreement on something, then.

----------


## Kevin007

> The Bible says that every person has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, but where in the Bible does it say that *we sin "every day?*"  I've never read a passage which states that.  We're certainly sinners who are saved by the blood of Christ, but I don't see where you get the idea that every single person sins "every single day."  When you look at the story of Job in the Bible, he didn't sin the entire time that Satan was tempting him.  He went through that entire time of testing without committing a sin.  The Bible describes him as being "blameless and upright."  It's true that none of us are without sin, but I don't really see any basis in the Bible for saying that no one can go a single day without sinning.  I don't think it's impossible for someone to go a day or several days without sinning, or whatever period of time.  You should keep in mind the verse that says "I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength."


common sense- we are still in the flesh. You mean to tell me that there are days when you do not ever sin? Think long on that one.

----------


## Kevin007

> But it's possible, because there have been a lot of examples of people that have had a one time statement of faith like that but haven't changed their lives in any way at all.  So it's important that a statement of faith be backed up by works, by how we live our lives.


like?

----------


## Kevin007

> We're in agreement on something, then.


AMEN.

----------


## Brett85

> common sense- we are still in the flesh. You mean to tell me that there are days when you do not ever sin? Think long on that one.


Could I sin if I decided to sleep all day?    I don't know if I sin every single day.  I certainly sin.  But I don't see any verse in the Bible which states that everyone sins every single day.

----------


## Brett85

> like?


What do you mean?

----------


## Kevin007

> I actually am waiting for my wife to get dressed so that we can go to Church now.  The three little ones seem to always get ready before her! lol
> 
> *Tonight Orthodox Christians all over the world are receiving the sacrament of Holy Unction (Holy Oil) for the healing of our souls and bodies.*  Such a blessed gift given by God for the faithful.  We will sing psalms and prayers in anticipation of tomorrow, another holy day.  It will be a busy next few days!  
> 
> Anyway, just got the word from my dear wife that she is ready.  Time to go!  Goodnight Nang, and God bless.


i'M truly glad for you- but Jesus did this 2,000 years ago friend.

----------


## Kevin007

> What do you mean?


do you have proof of your statement?

----------


## Brett85

> do you have proof of your statement?


You mean proof of people who have claimed to be Christians but didn't live a lifestyle that backed up their claim of faith?  It seems like there are countless examples of that.

----------


## Kevin007

> My point is that works are important.  Our actions are important.  Faith alone without any works to show for it is dead.  Our works are the evidence for our faith, so it's important that we live out our faith and do good works, to demonstrate that our faith is real and alive.  There's a saying that goes, "if you were arrested for being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you?"  Works are part of faith, because they demonstrate that we have faith.


so how many good works to have eternal security?

----------


## Kevin007

> You mean proof of people who have claimed to be Christians but didn't live a lifestyle that backed up their claim of faith?  It seems like there are countless examples of that.


I do not know anybody like that. The obvious answer was they were not truly saved.

----------


## Brett85

> so how many good works to have eternal security?


As many as the holy spirit tells you to do.  All of us are supposed to be guided by the holy spirit and are supposed to obey what the holy spirit tells us to do.  This doesn't mean that we have to basically be Mother Theresa to make it to heaven, but there has to at least be some evidence in our lives through our actions that our faith is authentic.

----------


## Brett85

> I do not know anybody like that. The obvious answer was they were not truly saved.


Ok, so then someone isn't necessarily saved simply by confessing with their mouth that they have faith in Christ.

----------


## Nang

TC

The question is:  do we or can we do enough good works to utimately be saved . . .

Or did Jesus Christ do all the good works necessary for our salvation?

----------


## Kevin007

> As many as the holy spirit tells you to do.  All of us are supposed to be guided by the holy spirit and are supposed to obey what the holy spirit tells us to do.  This doesn't mean that we have to basically be Mother Theresa to make it to heaven, but there has to at least be some evidence in our lives through our actions that our faith is authentic.


If Mother Teresa did not accept Jesus as Savior, she is not in Heaven.

----------


## Kevin007

> Ok, so then someone isn't necessarily saved simply by confessing with their mouth that they have faith in Christ.


if they meant it, yes they are.

----------


## Brett85

> TC
> 
> The question is:  do we or can we do enough good works to utimately be saved . . .
> 
> Or did Jesus Christ do all the good works necessary for our salvation?


What do you think Jesus meant in Matthew 25 when he said that the sheep would be those who fed the poor, visited those in prison, healed the sick, etc?  The only conclusion I can come to that makes sense is that by doing those things, we prove that we have faith in Christ.  We prove that we have faith in what Christ did for us on the cross through our actions.  Jesus said that "if you love me, you will obey my commandments."  The greatest commandment he gave us was to love our neighbor as ourselves.  So by doing our best to follow Christ's commandments, we show that we have real faith in Christ's death and resurrection.

Matthew 25: 31-40

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.

----------


## Kevin007

> What do you think Jesus meant in Matthew 25 when he said that the sheep would be those who fed the poor, visited those in prison, healed the sick, etc?  The only conclusion I can come to that makes sense is that by doing those things, we prove that we have faith in Christ.  We prove that we have faith in what Christ did for us on the cross through our actions.  Jesus said that "if you love me, you will obey my commandments."  The greatest commandment he gave us was to love our neighbor as ourselves.  So by doing our best to follow Christ's commandments, we show that we have real faith in Christ's death and resurrection.
> 
> Matthew 25: 31-40
> 
> When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
> 
> *34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’*
> 
> 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
> ...


Believer's today will have been raptured and the age of GRACE is finished. This is speaking of the tribulation saints vs unbelievers.

----------


## Brett85

> If Mother Teresa did not accept Jesus as Savior, she is not in Heaven.


I agree.  I'm not saying that anyone can make it to heaven without accepting Christ as their savior.  However, I think it's pretty clear that Mother Teresa had faith in Christ.  I guess I can't really say with absolute certainty though.

----------


## Brett85

> Believer's today will have been raptured and the age of GRACE is finished. This is speaking of the tribulation saints vs unbelievers.


Then what about this?  Isn't loving your neighbor as yourself "a work?"  This is how Jesus answered regarding how we obtain eternal life.

Luke 10:25-28

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

----------


## Kevin007

> I agree.  I'm not saying that anyone can make it to heaven without accepting Christ as their savior.  However, I think it's pretty clear that *Mother Teresa had faith in Christ*.  I guess I can't really say with absolute certainty though.


WHY do you say that?

----------


## Brett85

> WHY do you say that?


I thought she always claimed to be a follow of Christ.  But I don't really know for sure.  I'm not a Catholic.

----------


## Kevin007

> Then what about this?  Isn't loving your neighbor as yourself "a work?"  This is how Jesus answered regarding how we obtain eternal life.
> 
> Luke 10:25-28
> 
> On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
> 
> 26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
> 
> 27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]”
> ...


Jesus applies peoples' own standards to themselves when they seek to be  justified before God. The man was a lawyer.

----------


## Kevin007

> I thought she always claimed to be a follow of Christ.  But I don't really know for sure.  I'm not a Catholic.


she never once said Jesus was her Savior.



The following is from an interview with a  Catholic nun, "Sister" Ann, who worked in Kathmandu, Nepal, with  "Mother" Teresa's organization Missionaries of Charity. The interview  was conducted 11/23/84 at the Pashupati Temple.  
Q: Do you believe if they die believing  in Shiva or in Ram [Hindu gods] they will go to heaven? A: Yes, that is their faith. My own faith will lead me to God, ... So if  they have believed in their god very strongly, if they have faith,  surely they will be saved.  Q: Today it does not seem that the Catholic Church is trying to convert  anymore. I know that John Paul II is saying now that those of other  religions are saved. You do not believe they are lost anyway, right? A: No, they are not lost. They are saved according to their faith, you  know. If they believe whatever they believe, that is their salvation. 


http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False...sa_demonic.htm

----------


## Brett85

> Jesus applies peoples' own standards to themselves when they seek to be  justified before God. The man was a lawyer.


But then wouldn't Jesus had been lying to this man when he told him, "if you do this, you will live?"  If what you're saying is true, then why didn't Jesus just tell this man the truth?  Why didn't he just say, "just believe in me and you will inherit eternal life?"

----------


## Brett85

> she never once said Jesus was her Savior.


Well, I don't know about that.  I guess I haven't really researched her that much or studied her life.

----------


## Brett85

BTW, I'm not necessarily saying that we're saved by loving our neighbor.  I'm just saying that when you tie everything together, I think the Bible teaches that loving our neighbor is the evidence for our faith.  It's the evidence for our faith in Christ and what he did for us on the cross.

----------


## Kevin007

> Well, I don't know about that.  I guess I haven't really researched her that much or studied her life.


see my link TC.

----------


## Kevin007

> BTW, I'm not necessarily saying that we're saved by loving our neighbor.  I'm just saying that when you tie everything together, I think the Bible teaches that loving our neighbor is the evidence for our faith.  It's the evidence for our faith in Christ and what he did for us on the cross.


None of us are saying good works are bad, or not wanted; just that they cannot save you.

----------


## Kevin007

> But then wouldn't Jesus had been lying to this man when he told him, "if you do this, you will live?"  If what you're saying is true, then why didn't Jesus just tell this man the truth?  Why didn't he just say, "just believe in me and you will inherit eternal life?"


Why did He speak in parables?

----------


## Kevin007

> she never once said Jesus was her Savior.
> 
> 
> 
> The following is from an interview with a  Catholic nun, "Sister" Ann, who worked in Kathmandu, Nepal, with  "Mother" Teresa's organization Missionaries of Charity. The interview  was conducted 11/23/84 at the Pashupati Temple.  
> Q: Do you believe if they die believing  in Shiva or in Ram [Hindu gods] they will go to heaven? A: Yes, that is their faith. My own faith will lead me to God, ... So if  they have believed in their god very strongly, if they have faith,  surely they will be saved.  Q: Today it does not seem that the Catholic Church is trying to convert  anymore. I know that John Paul II is saying now that those of other  religions are saved. You do not believe they are lost anyway, right? A: No, they are not lost. They are saved according to their faith, you  know. If they believe whatever they believe, that is their salvation. 
> 
> *
> http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False...sa_demonic.htm*


here TC.

----------


## eduardo89

> she never once said Jesus was her Savior.


Proof she never once said Jesus was her Saviour?

Every single Catholic believes that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Saviour.

----------


## Nang

> Every single Catholic believes that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Saviour.


Oh yeah . . . plus what?

----------


## eduardo89

> Oh yeah . . . plus what?


Plus nothing. We believe we are saved *solely* by grace of the Cross.

----------


## Brett85

> Why did He speak in parables?


He said that he spoke in parables so that only some would understand and believe.  That's one of the verses that the Calvinists use to try to prove limited atonement, and I have to admit that it's a tough verse for Arminians.  But what does that have to do with Luke 10:25-28?  Jesus wasn't speaking in parables to that man who asked him how to obtain eternal life.

----------


## Kevin007

> Plus nothing. We believe we are saved *solely* by grace of the Cross.


then don't go to church, do the sacraments etc....

----------


## Kevin007

> He said that he spoke in parables so that only some would understand and believe.  That's one of the verses that the Calvinists use to try to prove limited atonement, and I have to admit that it's a tough verse for Arminians.  But what does that have to do with Luke 10:25-28?  Jesus wasn't speaking in parables to that man who asked him how to obtain eternal life.


Jesus was getting on his level. The lawyer was trying to be justified by law-keeping.


Jesus was pointing the Lawyer to the law and requiring it of him.  It  was the standard with which he judged himself.

----------


## Nang

> Plus nothing. We believe we are saved *solely* by grace of the Cross.


I absolutely do not believe you . . . the entire RCC system of faith teaches faith plus works.

Do you think we are stupid and do not know what your RCC stands for?

----------


## Brett85

> Jesus was getting on his level. The lawyer was trying to be justified by law-keeping.
> 
> 
> Jesus was pointing the Lawyer to the law and requiring it of him.  It  was the standard with which he judged himself.


But then why didn't he tell him that he had to be justified by faith rather than simply confirming to him that he could be justified by law keeping?

----------


## eduardo89

> I absolutely do not believe you . . . the entire RCC system of faith teaches faith plus works.


The Church teaches, and has always taught, that salvation is by grace alone. This was strongly re-iterated by the Council of Trent:




> Canon 1: If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.
> 
> Canon 2: If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.
> 
> Canon 3: If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.
> 
> Canon 10: If any one saith, that men are just without the justice of Christ, whereby He merited for us to be justified; or that it is by that justice itself that they are formally just; let him be anathema.





> Do you think we are stupid and do not know what your RCC stands for?


I think you are either stupid, wilfully ignorant, or a liar when you claim that the Church teaches anything but salvation by grace. 

So just in case it is one of the first two, I will say this which I have repeated about a dozen times to FreedomFanatic:

*Catholics believe that we are saved solely by the grace of the cross, through faith manifested in works inspired by the Holy Spirit's love.* 

In case is it the latter, which I suspect it is, then the only remedy will be to call you out every time you lie and falsely claim that the Church teaches salvation by works or that man can every do anything on his own to merit salvation.

----------


## Kevin007

> *The Church teaches, and has always taught, that salvation is by grace alone.* This was strongly re-iterated by the Council of Trent:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you are either stupid, wilfully ignorant, or a liar when you claim that the Church teaches anything but salvation by grace. 
> 
> So just in case it is one of the first two, I will say this which I have repeated about a dozen times to FreedomFanatic:
> ...



Canon 4 “_If anyone shall say that the sacraments are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that, although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them, through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema_.”

----------


## eduardo89

> Canon 4 “_If anyone shall say that the sacraments are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that, although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them, through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema_.”


Is baptism necessary for salvation?

----------


## Kevin007

> Is baptism necessary for salvation?


are all 7 needed for salvation?

besides you just said that only faith in Jesus was needed... which is it?

----------


## eduardo89

> are all 7 needed for salvation?


Yes, all the Sacraments are necessary. But as the Council of Trent re-iterated, all are not necessary for every individual.

You didn't answer my question, though. Is baptism necessary for salvation?




> besides you just said that only faith in Jesus was needed... which is it?


I never said that. I do not subscribe to the unbiblical, innovative theology of salvation by faith alone.

----------


## Kevin007

> Yes, all the Sacraments are necessary. But as the Council of Trent re-iterated, all are not necessary for every individual.
> 
> You didn't answer my question, though. Is baptism necessary for salvation?
> 
> 
> 
> I never said that. I do not subscribe to the unbiblical, innovative theology of salvation by faith alone.


baptism does not save, no.

----------


## Terry1

> *The point your missing is salvation is not dependent on obedience and laws*, but sanctification and growing in Jesus is. Actually Jesus fulfilled the Law, so there is that.


Kevin, our salvation is most certainly based upon obedience to the law of faith as the Apostle Paul tells us here:* Romans 2:13 
(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

*

What you're missing Kevin, is understanding the difference between the Old Law of Moses and the Law of faith.  There are works done under both of these laws.  Works done to obtain righteousness under the Mosaic law are what Paul tells us NOT TO DO.  Works of faith done under the Law of faith in obedience to the Holy Spirit are what Paul tells us TO DO--here:
*
1 Thessalonians 1:3 
remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,

2 Thessalonians 1:11 
Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,*






> The entire Bible is based on OSAS. Why do you even bring up Calvin?


Kevin, no--the OSAS is not Biblical and is not supported at all by Gods words.  There are far too many scriptures that refute this doctrine.  This is something that was created by Augustine and John Calvin.  Read this article here on the OSAS doctrine.  http://www.fwponline.cc/v21n1/v21n1witzki.html

----------


## Terry1

> None of us are saying good works are bad, or not wanted; just that they cannot save you.


Kevin, it's more than clear that you think you're right because the Catholics don't believe in OSAS.  You're not fighting a Roman Catholic doctrine here Kevin, many of us are not Roman Catholic, including myself and TC.  *This doctrine of OSAS is shouted down and is refuted by many protestants alike.*  

I think you're too hung up on the RCC to understand that OSAS is not Biblically supported.  Just because they don't subscribe to it means that everyone else is wrong too.  There is a large gap in your understanding the difference between the two laws of "works" that the Apostle Paul refers to in the Bible.  One "work" justifies us and the other "work" does not.  Until you grasp this understanding like many of you don't who subscribe to this doctrine--you will be missing the mark in your walk with the Lord.  It is something important that you should understand.

This isn't a Roman Catholic teaching per-say---this is biblical--Gods own word.

----------


## Terry1

> how is it proof texting? The entire Bible shows grace by faith, not of works. Jesus said to believe in Him and be saved; we have eternal life when we put our faith in Jesus.
> 
> I want to refute one by one these so called verses about losing one's salvation. Shoot.


Yes, but you haven't refuted any that have been presented as of yet.  Let's try first Hebrews 6:4 and John 15:5.  Still waiting--

----------


## Terry1

> Oh yeah . . . plus what?


And you think that believing that God "is the first cause" of evil, sin and death is biblical, which is the same as blaspheming God and the Holy Spirit.  There's no forgiveness for that belief--think on that one why don't you.

What you believe is so far from what the word of God clearly says that IMO, you have little hope at all of ever seeing the light of truth.

----------


## Kevin007

> Yes, but you haven't refuted any that have been presented as of yet.  Let's try first Hebrews 6:4 and John 15:5.  Still waiting--


According to this interpretation, the key  word in the passage is if (verse 6). The writer of Hebrews is setting up  a hypothetical statement: “IF a Christian were to fall away . . .” The  point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls  away) to renew salvation. That’s because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all.

The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise  (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless  conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The  absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original  assumption. This reasoning is called reductio ad absurdum, in which a  premise is disproved by showing that it logically leads to an absurdity.

Both of these interpretations support the security of the believer in  Christ. The first interpretation presents unbelievers rejecting Christ  and thereby losing their chance of salvation; the second interpretation  presents the very idea of believers losing salvation as impossible. Many  scriptures make it abundantly clear that salvation is eternal (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:35, 38-39; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:4-5), and Hebrews 6:4-6 confirms that doctrine.
Read more:  http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-...#ixzz2zAdP6BU9

----------


## Kevin007

John 15:5

*Fruitfulness (John 15:5-8).*  Our job is not producing fruit. Our job is to abide in Christ, and if  we do, the Holy Spirit will produce the fruit, and this fruit is the  result of our obedience. As we become more obedient to the Lord and  learn to walk in His ways, our lives will change. The biggest change  will take place in our hearts, and the overflow of this will be new  conduct (thoughts, words and actions) representative of that change. The  change we seek is done from the inside out, through the power of the  Holy Spirit. It isn’t something we can conjure up on our own.
Read more:  http://www.gotquestions.org/Christia...#ixzz2zAdf5VnJ

----------


## acptulsa

So, this is why we can't get the PATRIOT Act repealed?




Maybe I should read this thread from the start...

----------


## donnay

> I guess you missed this passage then?
> 
> 
> *Romans 6:1-6*King James Version (KJV)
> 
>  6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
> 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
> 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
> 4 Therefore  we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was  raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also  should walk in newness of life.
> ...



Romans 3:23  
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

----------


## RJB

> The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise  (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless  conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again).


How do you get that?

----------


## Terry1

> According to this interpretation, the key  word in the passage is if (verse 6). The writer of Hebrews is setting up  a hypothetical statement: IF a Christian were to fall away . . . The  point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls  away) to renew salvation. Thats because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then theres no hope at all.
> 
> The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise  (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless  conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The  absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original  assumption. This reasoning is called reductio ad absurdum, in which a  premise is disproved by showing that it logically leads to an absurdity.
> 
> Both of these interpretations support the security of the believer in  Christ. The first interpretation presents unbelievers rejecting Christ  and thereby losing their chance of salvation; the second interpretation  presents the very idea of believers losing salvation as impossible. Many  scriptures make it abundantly clear that salvation is eternal (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:35, 38-39; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:4-5), and Hebrews 6:4-6 confirms that doctrine.
> Read more:  http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-...#ixzz2zAdP6BU9


Charles Stanley--is a Baptist OSAS believer who wrote that article, which is a Calvinist teaching. LOL--  Ah jeez--I give up, I really don't care what anyone believes any more--I am totally burned out on all of this.  All I can say is that this belief you're subscribing to is very dangerous.  Don't think you can live any way you like ignoring the Spirit of the Lord and still think you can remain in a state of elect.  

Charles Stanley also taught that a reprobate can still make it into the kingdom of heaven--which is total heresy and is Calvinism.  At some point, you have to learn how to rightly divide the word of God on your own and that can only happen through seeking, study and prayer for guidance.

Here is a heretical OSAS Calvinist belief and quote from Charles Stanley and what he believes:  This guy really scares me with this unbiblical lie he's teaching here.




> *Stanley states, God does not require a constant attitude of faith in order to be saved  only an act of faith in Christ.2 Even if we die in a completely reprobate state, cursing God, and rejecting any relationship with Him, we would still spend eternity in His presence. Stanley further states, Believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation, for God remains faithful,3 and even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy.4 You can give it back only if the giver accepts the return. In the case of salvation God has a strict no-return policy*.  http://www.intouch.org/you/article-a...e#.U1BXtCNOXRY



So in other words, Stanley is teaching that you can murder, rape, molest anyone and never repent of it and still make it to heaven because you confessed belief once with your mouth.  And whether you choose to acknowledge that this is what you believe or not--doesn't change this lie and heresy of the evil OSAS doctrine, because it endorses murder, rapist, pedophiles who never repent saying they will still inherit the kingdom of heaven--just because *once* they confessed belief---which is a lie.

----------


## Brett85

@Terry1-That's a far more liberal view than even the Calvinists have.  The Calvinists on this forum would just say that if someone becomes an unbeliever, they just never had real faith to begin with and were never saved.  Stanley's view is just entirely unbiblical.  The Bible teaches that you have to persevere to the end to be saved.

----------


## Brett85

> Charles Stanley--is a Baptist OSAS believer who wrote that article, which is a Calvinist teaching.


I'm actually a Baptist, believe it or not.  I've gone to a Baptist church my whole life.  But recently I'm finding myself disagreeing with them on more theological issues than I used to, such as OSAS.

----------


## Nang

> Charles Stanley also taught that a reprobate can still make it into the kingdom of heaven--which is total heresy and is Calvinism.


PLEASE stop blaming everything you disagree with, on Calvinists.  The above is just plain crazy and me thinks you protest way too much!

*OSAS is not Calvinist.

Reprobates being adopted into the kingdom is not Calvinist.

Stanley's quote is not Calvinist.*

IMO, you should stop this silly and hateful campaign of lies.

----------


## Nang

*Thread: OSAS (Once saved always saved; eternal security)*   today
I don't think you're stupid, I think you're a liar.                                                                                        *eduardo89*04-16-2014 10:04 PM
*eduardo89*
*Thread: OSAS (Once saved always saved; eternal security)*
And protestants think that their fallible three-pound brains are what Christianity is about...04-16-2014 08:20 PM
*eduardo89*
*Thread: OSAS (Once saved always saved; eternal security)*
Do you always have to be so rude?

- Reps since posting yesterday in this thread:

LOL ... Does anyone else see the humor in this?

----------


## Terry1

> I'm actually a Baptist, believe it or not.  I've gone to a Baptist church my whole life.  But recently I'm finding myself disagreeing with them on more theological issues than I used to, such as OSAS.


Many years ago, I taught in Baptist church and that's just one of the reasons I left is because the other pastor and I disagreed on the OSAS teaching.  I couldn't even hardly sit through a service listening to it.  My money is what kept him friendly with me, I built half the church there for the children's Sunday school and new bathrooms. LOL  

Since those days, I've grown way beyond and out of many churches.  Because I really didn't need a social life, I had enough of that without church and I didn't want to subscribe myself to doctrines that were unbiblical.  

After that *church* experience, I think I told you this already, but I'll tell it again.  I was having my morning coffee one day.  I was just sitting on the couch in the livingroom when suddenly a voice--*an audible real voice* said to me, "I AM GOING TO SEPARATE YOU".  That's all that was said and as if the person/voice was sitting right next to me.  Even though there was no one else in the house or that room, still I looked around as if there had to be someone there, but there was no one--just that beautiful voice.

I had no idea what it meant or why those particular words were spoken.  So I searched the word of God and the only scripture that mentioned being "separated" was in Romans, chapter 1: *1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God  2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures,* 

There is was and still I had to keep reading to see what is was I was being told.  It took me a while to figure it all out and why I never again went back to the church of four walls.  I know now that I'm not supposed to become of member of any physical church because I believe that the Lord has shown me where so many of them fall short in their doctrines.  I have been shown many though and some closer to the will of God than others, still others being so far off the mark that their teachings don't even resemble the true word of God.

I go where I'm led now spiritually.  God has indeed even led sick and needy people to me for different reasons, but not just people either--God has even led wounded animals right up to my very front porch and I have no idea how they got there.  This happens to me a lot--LOL  I could tell you some interesting stories indeed.

----------


## Terry1

> *Thread: OSAS (Once saved always saved; eternal security)*   today
> I don't think you're stupid, I think you're a liar.                                                                                        *eduardo89*04-16-2014 10:04 PM
> *eduardo89*
> *Thread: OSAS (Once saved always saved; eternal security)*
> And protestants think that their fallible three-pound brains are what Christianity is about...04-16-2014 08:20 PM
> *eduardo89*
> *Thread: OSAS (Once saved always saved; eternal security)*
> Do you always have to be so rude?
> 
> ...


Yeah---you're still here.

----------


## Nang

> Yeah---you're still here.



It is called freedom of speech . . .

----------


## Nang

> It took me a while to figure it all out and why I never again went back to the church of four walls.  I know now that I'm not supposed to become of member of any physical church because I believe that the Lord has shown me where so many of them fall short in their doctrines.


This is called loving and divine providence.

God loves His church and protects her  . . .

----------


## Terry1

> PLEASE stop blaming everything you disagree with, on Calvinists.  The above is just plain crazy and me thinks you protest way too much!
> 
> *OSAS is not Calvinist.
> 
> Reprobates being adopted into the kingdom is not Calvinist.
> 
> Stanley's quote is not Calvinist.*
> 
> IMO, you should stop this silly and hateful campaign of lies.


I'm not as loving and kind as TER is with your foul behavior.  I'll just tell you to shove it demon.   Yeah--report that one too, see if I care.  Go back to hell where you came from.

----------


## Nang

> I'm not as loving and kind as TER is with your foul behavior.  I'll just tell you to shove it demon.   Yeah--report that one too, see if I care.  Go back to hell where you came from.



O.K.

I reported this.

You border on hysteria and should be moderated and quietened down . . . only in my opinion, of course.

----------


## Terry1

> O.K.
> 
> I reported this.
> 
> You border on hysteria and should be moderated and quietened down . . . only in my opinion, of course.


Good for you demon, your days are numbered on this earth accusing God and the brethren anyway.  Enjoy creating chaos and mayhem while you can. LOL

----------


## Brett85

> I'm not as loving and kind as TER is with your foul behavior.  I'll just tell you to shove it demon.   Yeah--report that one too, see if I care.  Go back to hell where you came from.


I have to say that even though I like you, I don't see the need for this.  Nang was rude to TER earlier in this thread, but two wrongs don't make a right.

----------


## RJB



----------


## RJB

I was about to tell Ed that he wasn't being very nice, but...




> *Thread: OSAS (Once saved always saved; eternal security)*   today
> I don't think you're stupid, I think you're a liar.                                                                                        *eduardo89*04-16-2014 10:04 PM
> *eduardo89*


I believe this was an answer to your question:



> Do you think we are stupid and do not know what your RCC stands for?


  I probably would have left it unanswered, but I do believe you either don't understand us, or you do, but deep in your heart you *purposely don't want* to understand .






> *Thread: OSAS (Once saved always saved; eternal security)*
> And protestants think that their fallible three-pound brains are what Christianity is about...


The human brain is actually approximately 3 pounds. Calling it pea sized would have been rude.  His way was a bit course.   I believe Ed was trying to say the wisdom of the Holy Spirit through the Pillar and Foundation of the truth (His Church) trumps our human knowledge.   




> *Thread: OSAS (Once saved always saved; eternal security)*
> Do you always have to be so rude?


You have been rude, but you are not the only one by far who has been rude.  A few of us need a break.



> - Reps since posting yesterday in this thread:


  In the past I've only neg repped back for neg reps received.  But 3 in one day.  Ed's finger is going to get arthritis.



> LOL ... Does anyone else see the humor in this?


  I find 90% of the religion forum to be amusing.  

Relax everyone.

----------


## RJB

> Good for you demon, your days are numbered on this earth accusing God and the brethren anyway.  Enjoy creating chaos and mayhem while you can. LOL


Relax...

----------


## Nang

> Relax...



Do you have a testimony?  Do you take a stand as to what is the true, saving gospel message from God?

If so, I would love to see your witness . . . I have only recently met you on these forums, and so far, you are entertaining, but I have no clue what beliefs you hold.

Sorry, if I have missed that important fact . . . but just wondering why the continual glib humor, but no real passion shown on your part for biblical truth?

IOW's, what do you really believe, RJB?

----------


## eduardo89

> LOL ... Does anyone else see the humor in this?


Yes, it's humorous that you take neg reps so seriously. I neg repped you because you're constantly insulting people on here and constantly lying about Catholicism., and most of all, you constantly whine.

----------


## RJB

> Do you have a testimony?  Do you take a stand as to what is the true, saving gospel message from God?
> 
> If so, I would love to see your witness . . . I have only recently met you on these forums, and so far, you are entertaining, but I have no clue what beliefs you hold.
> 
> Sorry, if I have missed that important fact . . . but just wondering why the continual glib humor, but no real passion shown on your part for biblical truth?
> 
> IOW's, what do you really believe, RJB?


Look through the threads I've started in the religion forum in the past months.  Lately.  I've found them to be drama filled and repeating the same stuff with no one listening to the other.  I mean when two Palm Sunday threads gets trolled, why bother with seriousness?  Seriously.

But funny you should ask.  The Divine Mercy Novena begins tomorrow.  I was just about to post that  

BTW I would love to see you post some of the Gospel's truth as well.

----------


## Nang

> Yes, it's humorous that you take neg reps so seriously. I neg repped you because you're constantly insulting people on here and constantly lying about Catholicism., and most of all, you constantly whine.


I take rudeness seriously, especially when I am being rudely treated out of sight . . .

IOW's, give me open response to my public posts, publicly . . . or expect to be considered nothing more than a rude wimp.

----------


## Nang

> BTW I would love to see you post some of the Gospel's truth as well.


I have posted nothing but gospel truth since joining this forum.

Sorry you have missed it . . .

----------


## RJB

> I have posted *nothing but gospel truth* since joining this forum.
> 
> Sorry you have missed it . . .


  All 879 of your post since joining in March have been nothing but the Gospel truth?  Really?  I'm guessing that the bulk of your gospel truth must have been in the many posts that were deleted from those two threads that were edited by the moderators.  That must be how I missed it.

----------


## Kevin007

back on topic please.

----------


## Kevin007

> And I have your back, dear brother!
> 
> Nang


thank you! I'm going to start these verses one by one; just got home.

----------


## Kevin007

> Plus nothing. We believe we are saved *solely* by grace of the Cross.


not Mother Theresa apparently. You can believe in ANY god you want and still be saved....did you even read my link?

----------


## Kevin007

> I absolutely do not believe you . . . the entire RCC system of faith teaches faith plus works.
> 
> Do you think we are stupid and do not know what your RCC stands for?


exactly! Let us look closer at the RCC Catechism.


The RCC teaches that the *mass is a necessary part of salvation* as it is the ongoing work of the cross. Vatican II stated: _As often as the sacrifice of the cross by which Christ our Pasch is sacrificed (1 Cor. 5:7) is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out_ (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Chapter 1, 3, p. 324).

----------


## Kevin007

Purgatory (no such place!)-


I_f anyone says that after the reception of the grace of Justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema_ (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, Session 6, Canon 30. Shroeder, H.J., Tan Books, 1978, p. 46. The Council of Trent was reaffirmed by Vatican I and II --1960)

----------


## RJB

> back on topic please.


You were talking about an OASIS, I believe.

----------


## Kevin007

> Yes, all the Sacraments are necessary. But as the Council of Trent re-iterated, all are not necessary for every individual.
> 
> You didn't answer my question, though.* Is baptism necessary for salvation?*
> 
> 
> 
> I never said that. I do not subscribe to the unbiblical, innovative theology of salvation by faith alone.


no.

----------


## Kevin007

> The Church teaches, and has always taught, that salvation is by grace alone. This was strongly re-iterated by the Council of Trent:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you are either stupid, wilfully ignorant, or a liar when you claim that the Church teaches anything but salvation by grace. 
> 
> So just in case it is one of the first two, I will say this which I have repeated about a dozen times to FreedomFanatic:
> ...


there should be a PERIOD after your first comma. Jesus said "it is FINISHED". God the Father was FULLY SATISFIED at Jesus' death and resurrection.

----------


## Kevin007

> You were talking about an OASIS, I believe.

----------


## RJB

> back on topic please.


After you posted to get back on topic, you IMMEDIATELY posted these posts that are off topic 




> thank you! I'm going to start these verses one by one; just got home.





> not Mother Theresa apparently. You can believe in ANY god you want and still be saved....did you even read my link?





> exactly! Let us look closer at the RCC Catechism.
> 
> 
> The RCC teaches that the *mass is a necessary part of salvation* as it is the ongoing work of the cross. Vatican II stated: “_As often as the sacrifice of the cross by which ‘Christ our Pasch is sacrificed’ (1 Cor. 5:7) is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out”_ (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Chapter 1, 3, p. 324).





> Purgatory (no such place!)-
> 
> 
> “I_f anyone says that after the reception of the grace of Justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema”_ (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, Session 6, Canon 30. Shroeder, H.J., Tan Books, 1978, p. 46. The Council of Trent was reaffirmed by Vatican I and II --1960)

----------


## Kevin007

> Kevin, our salvation is most certainly based upon obedience to the law of faith as the Apostle Paul tells us here:* Romans 2:13 
> (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
> 
> Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
> 
> *
> 
> What you're missing Kevin, is understanding the difference between the Old Law of Moses and the Law of faith.  There are works done under both of these laws.  Works done to obtain righteousness under the Mosaic law are what Paul tells us NOT TO DO.  Works of faith done under the Law of faith in obedience to the Holy Spirit are what Paul tells us TO DO--here:
> *
> ...


was the thief on the cross obedient to the "law of faith"?

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> * Ed's finger is going to get arthritis*.
>   I find 90% of the religion forum to be amusing.  
> 
> Relax everyone.


Heaven knows his wrist already has it thanks to his string of hornybikinipics.  lolz.

----------


## Kevin007

> After you posted to get back on topic, you IMMEDIATELY posted these posts that are off topic


no- they are in response to eduardo; him saying to me on page 8 that RC's believe solely in the Cross.

----------


## RJB

> Heaven knows his wrist already has it thanks to his string of hornybikinipics.  lolz.


Whoa dude.  TMI

----------


## RJB

> no- they are in response to eduardo; him saying to me on page 8 that RC's believe solely in the Cross.


But what has that to do with the topic of OSAS?

To Eduardo's point:  Yes we are saved by the cross, but Jesus in the 4 Gospels and other writers in the Epistles give us many examples of *actions* that tell us who will or won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, and not once does one of them say "But if you believe in Faith Alone, ignore these instructions."

----------


## Kevin007

> But what has that to do with the topic of OSAS?
> 
> To Eduardo's point:  Yes we are saved by the cross, but Jesus in the 4 Gospels and other writers in the Epistles give us many examples of *actions* that tell us who will or won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, and not once does one of them say "But if you believe in Faith Alone, ignore these instructions."


What is found in THE CANONS AND DECREES OF THE COUNCIL OF TRENT (1545-64) and VATICAN II (1962-5). Trent denied every doctrine the Reformation brought, from Sola Scriptura to salvation by grace through faith alone. The arguments continue today.  I_f anyone says that the sacraments of the new law are not NECESSARY FOR SALVATION ... but that without them ... men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification ... LET HIM BE ANATHEMA_ (Trent, 7 TH session, Canon 4). Man is justified by baptism plus faith, plus additional works through the church.  Most Catholics who practice their religion are  concerned with their being good enough, being able to earn their salvation by what they do. If we ask the question do you have salvation, are they saved NOW- the answer the majority of the time will no. No one can know this. 


 Consider their own writing, _No one can know with the certainty of faith ... that he has obtained the grace of God [anathema to all who claim they know]_ (Trent, 6th Ses., Chap. N.)


*The Bible says we can*. (Eph. 3:18-19)

 I Jn. 5:13 _These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God_.

----------


## RJB

Meh...  I'll let Eduardo play in this thread if he wants.  We probably have 100s of 10 plus page threads over this and I don't feel like rehashing it tonight, especially since you posted your "response" to this...




> But what has that to do with the topic of OSAS?
> 
> To Eduardo's point:  Yes we are saved by the cross, but Jesus in the 4 Gospels and other writers in the Epistles give us many examples of *actions* that tell us who will or won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, and not once does one of them say "But if you believe in Faith Alone, ignore these instructions."


...as if you didn't read what I posted.  This has happened a lot in this thread and most threads in the religion forum.  As I said, it's why I view it light heartedly now.  But I'll take my leave tonight, not out of spite, but rather I feel my behavior may become troll like if I stay much longer this evening.  Good night   






> What is found in THE CANONS AND DECREES OF THE COUNCIL OF TRENT (1545-64) and VATICAN II (1962-5). Trent denied every doctrine the Reformation brought, from Sola Scriptura to salvation by grace through faith alone. The arguments continue today.  I_f anyone says that the sacraments of the new law are not NECESSARY FOR SALVATION ... but that without them ... men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification ... LET HIM BE ANATHEMA_ (Trent, 7 TH session, Canon 4). Man is justified by baptism plus faith, plus additional works through the church.  Most Catholics who practice their religion are  concerned with their being good enough, being able to earn their salvation by what they do. If we ask the question do you have salvation, are they saved NOW- the answer the majority of the time will no. No one can know this. 
> 
> 
>  Consider their own writing, _No one can know with the certainty of faith ... that he has obtained the grace of God [anathema to all who claim they know]_ (Trent, 6th Ses., Chap. N.)
> 
> 
> *The Bible says we can*. (Eph. 3:18-19)
> 
>  I Jn. 5:13 _These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God_.

----------


## RJB

*BTW Eduardo.*  You may want to bump your thread for the "open question for FF" for Kevin to read.  I believe posts #6 and #20 would be relevant to his misunderstandings.

Now back to OSAS and I'm really off to bed this time.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Whoa dude.  TMI


LOL   I think he made that string before you came here.  It was ~the middle of the bestest picture thread EVARR part I.  Melissa was not amused.

----------


## Terry1

> was the thief on the cross obedient to the "law of faith"?


No, but God does foreknow the hearts of mankind, which dose not negate the rest of scripture that explicitly tell us that without "works of faith" as in the "good works" that follow our confession of belief---you have no faith--it dies and one becomes as again a sinful dead person through unbelief and grace no effect any longer.

You can't just take one instance in the bible or one scripture that negates what the rest are saying just to support your unbiblical belief.  What's wrong here is that you're so hung up on what the Catholics believe that you're blinded to your own unbiblical belief.

You keep supporting Nang because you came here right along with her.  How you can support anything this demon from hell claims is beyond me.  You've all come here to attack the Catholic brethren.  I thought we were discussing OSAS, not Catholicism.  OSAS is totally unbiblical and there is nothing in the word of God that supports unrepentant reprobates, murders, rapists, pedophiles and those who curse God and the brethren still entering the Kingdom of heaven just because they confessed Jesus once in their life.

In fact Gods word tells you right here that they will all be eternally damned:

*Romans 1:26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
*

----------


## Terry1

1.Matthew 5:16 
Let your light so shine before men, *that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.*
Matthew 5:15-17 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations  
2.John 10:32 
Jesus answered them, *Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?*
John 10:31-33 (in Context) John 10 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations  
3.Acts 9:36 
[ Dorcas Restored to Life ] At Joppa there was a certain disciple named Tabitha, which is translated Dorcas. *This woman was full of good works and charitable deeds which she did.
*Acts 9:35-37 (in Context) Acts 9 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations  
4.Romans 13:3 
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? *Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
Romans 13*:2-4 (in Context) Romans 13 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations  
5.Ephesians 2:10 
For we are His workmanship, *created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them*.
Ephesians 2:9-11 (in Context) Ephesians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations  
6.1 Timothy 2:10 
but,* which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works*.
1 Timothy 2:9-11 (in Context) 1 Timothy 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations  
7.1 Timothy 5:10 
*well reported for good works: if she has brought up children, if she has lodged strangers, if she has washed the saints feet, if she has relieved the afflicted, if she has diligently followed every good work.
*1 Timothy 5:9-11 (in Context) 1 Timothy 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations  
8.1 Timothy 5:25 
*Likewise, the good works of some are clearly evident, and those that are otherwise cannot be hidden.
*1 Timothy 5:24-25 (in Context) 1 Timothy 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations  
9.1 Timothy 6:18 
*Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share,
*1 Timothy 6:17-19 (in Context) 1 Timothy 6 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations  
10.Titus 2:7 
*in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works; in doctrine showing integrity, reverence, incorruptibility*,
Titus 2:6-8 (in Context) Titus 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations  
11.Titus 2:14 
who gave Himself for us, that *He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.*
Titus 2:13-15 (in Context) Titus 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations  
12.Titus 3:8 
This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, *that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works.* These things are good and profitable to men.
Titus 3:7-9 (in Context) Titus 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations  
13.Titus 3:14 
*And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful.
*Titus 3:13-15 (in Context) Titus 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations  
14.Hebrews 10:24 
*And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works,
*Hebrews 10:23-25 (in Context) Hebrews 10 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations  
15.1 Peter 2:12 
having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, *by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation.
*1 Peter 2:11-13 (in Context) 1 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

----------


## Terry1

*James
2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.*



*Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.  13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.  14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d]  15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.*

OSAS is a lie from hell.

----------


## Terry1

So, if you believe in the concept of "once saved, always saved," these are some Bible verses that you should read and consider because they clearly teach a differing perspective:

Hebrews 6:4-8-- Possible to taste of salvation and then fall away.
II Peter 2:20-22-- Better not to know righteousness than to know it and turn back.
Galatians 1:6-9-- Christians are deserting Christ and pursuing another gospel.
Galatians 5:4-- A person who previously accepted Christ can be severed from Christ and fall from grace.
Philippians 2:12-13-- Salvation has to be worked out.
I Timothy 1:18-20-- Some men have been shipwrecked in their faith.
Romans 11:17-24-- Christians were grafted into the tree of Israel by faith.  They can also be cut out if they don't remain in faith.
John 15:1-11-- Christians have to remain in Christ in order to be saved.
Hebrews 10:36-39-- Don't shrink back from the faith.
Hebrews 10:26-29-- If we go on sinning after we have been saved, we are trampling Christ underfoot.
Matthew 5:13-- If salt loses its taste, it is worthless.
Matthew 12:43-45-- A person delivered from an unclean spirit can be re-possessed later.
Matthew 24:10-13-- People will fall away from the faith in the last days.
John 5:14-- Go and sin no more so that nothing worse happens to you.
II Timothy 2:12-13-- Have to endure.  Possible to believe in Christ and later deny Christ.
I Corinthians 10:1-12-- Christians are warned to avoid Israel's disobedience.  Keep in mind Israel was saved out of Egypt, but the people fell into disobedience and most perished in the wilderness.
Hebrews 3:12-19-- Don't fall into Israel's disobedience and disbelief.
Galatians 4:5-11-- Don't turn back and be re-enslaved to the things of the world.
Ezekiel 18:24-29-- A righteous man who turns back to wickedness.
I Peter 5:8-- The devil wants to devour people of faith and bring them to ruin.
II Peter 1:10-11-- Your faith has to be put into practice in order to gain entrance into eternal life.  If you don't put your faith into practice, you will stumble in your faith.
I Peter 1:8-9-- Salvation is the final outcome of a faithfully lived life-- not an unconditional guarantee.
II Peter 3:17-18-- Be on guard that you are not carried away and fall from your steadfastness.
Hebrews 3:12-14-- Don't fall away.  Hold fast to the faith.
John 15:5 Severed, cut off from the True Vine Jesus--they are burned.

----------


## Terry1

You can lose your salvation in this life.  You can fall from grace.  You can walk away and be turned over to a reprobate and damned throughout all eternity.  You can change your mind and ignore the Holy Spirit and for all of these things that can and do happen to those who once believed---Gods word WARNS YOU WHAT CAN HAPPEN if you don't remain and abide in Christ continually by showing your "good works of faith" as examples to the world of those lost.  We are supposed to shine as lights upon a hill and the only way to accomplish that in this world is through faith--through our good works of faith that give fruit and evidence as to who we are and what we believe.

OSAS is a lie from hell that sets people up for the fall and is satan's tool he uses to convince believers they can commit any crime and evil offense and still retain their salvation--unaware that they indeed are being damned for what they do and how they choose to live.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> You can lose your salvation in this life.  You can fall from grace.  You can walk away and be turned over to a reprobate and damned throughout all eternity.  You can change your mind and ignore the Holy Spirit and for all of these things that can and do happen to those who once believed---Gods word WARNS YOU WHAT CAN HAPPEN if you don't remain and abide in Christ continually by showing your "good works of faith" as examples to the world of those lost.  We are supposed to shine as lights upon a hill and the only way to accomplish that in this world is through faith--through our good works of faith that give fruit and evidence as to who we are and what we believe.
> 
> OSAS is a lie from hell that sets people up for the fall and is satan's tool he uses to convince believers they can commit any crime and evil offense and still retain their salvation--unaware that they indeed are being damned for what they do and how they choose to live.


[QUOTE]You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Terry1 again.[/QUOTE]

----------


## donnay

> You can lose your salvation in this life.  You can fall from grace.  You can walk away and be turned over to a reprobate and damned throughout all eternity.  You can change your mind and ignore the Holy Spirit and for all of these things that can and do happen to those who once believed---Gods word WARNS YOU WHAT CAN HAPPEN if you don't remain and abide in Christ continually by showing your "good works of faith" as examples to the world of those lost.  We are supposed to shine as lights upon a hill and the only way to accomplish that in this world is through faith--through our good works of faith that give fruit and evidence as to who we are and what we believe.
> 
> OSAS is a lie from hell that sets people up for the fall and is satan's tool he uses to convince believers they can commit any crime and evil offense and still retain their salvation--unaware that they indeed are being damned for what they do and how they choose to live.


Well said.  +rep

So many people will be deceived and this particular phrase is definitely deceptive--kind of like the "Rapture Ready" folks.  If you are not in his word daily and walk with him daily you can certainly be deceived by the anti-christ and his minions.  God said 

John 8:32 - And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 
Ephesians 4:18 - Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Hosea 4:6 - My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Proverbs 22:3 - A prudent [man] foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.

James 1:5 - If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Acts 17:30 - And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

1 John 4:1 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Matthew 7:21-23 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.   (Read More...)

1 Peter 1:13-16 - Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;   (Read More...)

Luke 23:34 - Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Acts 3:17 - And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did [it], as [did] also your rulers.

Proverbs 19:2 - Also, [that] the soul [be] without knowledge, [it is] not good; and he that hasteth with [his] feet sinneth.

Proverbs 8:5 - O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

1 Corinthians 2:7-10 - But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:   (Read More...)

John 13:7 - Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.

Romans 12:1-2 - I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.   (Read More...)

Ezekiel 33:8 - When I say unto the wicked, O wicked [man], thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Ezekiel 33:6 - But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take [any] person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Job 11:12 - For vain man would be wise, though man be born [like] a wild ass's colt.

Ezekiel 45:20 - And so thou shalt do the seventh [day] of the month for every one that erreth, and for [him that is] simple: so shall ye reconcile the house.

Leviticus 5:8 - And he shall bring them unto the priest, who shall offer [that] which [is] for the sin offering first, and wring off his head from his neck, but shall not divide [it] asunder:

Ephesians 4:21 - If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

Galatians 1:13-16 - For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:   (Read More...)

1 Corinthians 2:8 - Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ecclesiastes 8:7 - For he knoweth not that which shall be: for who can tell him when it shall be?

Job 37:5 - God thundereth marvellously with his voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend.

Job 8:9 - (For we [are but of] yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth [are] a shadow

1 Corinthians 3:19 - For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Acts 3:15 - And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Acts 1:7 - And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Jeremiah 10:23 - O LORD, I know that the way of man [is] not in himself: [it is] not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Job 37:16 - Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?

Job 28:13 - Man knoweth not the price thereof; neither is it found in the land of the living.

Numbers 15:22-29 - And if ye have erred, and not observed all these commandments, which the LORD hath spoken unto Moses,   (Read More...)

1 Timothy 1:13 - Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.

Galatians 1:1-24 - Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead   (Read More...)

Romans 8:24-26 - For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?   (Read More...)

Luke 12:48 - But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Ecclesiastes 9:12 - For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so [are] the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.

Ecclesiastes 7:23 - All this have I proved by wisdom: I said, I will be wise; but it [was] far from me.

Proverbs 9:14-18 - For she sitteth at the door of her house, on a seat in the high places of the city,   (Read More...)

Leviticus 5:4-19 - Or if a soul swear, pronouncing with [his] lips to do evil, or to do good, whatsoever [it be] that a man shall pronounce with an oath, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth [of it], then he shall be guilty in one of these.   (Read More...)

Genesis 12:11-17 - And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou [art] a fair woman to look upon:   (Read More...)

Revelation 22:19 - And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Revelation 20:2-5 - And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,   (Read More...)

Revelation 13:8 - And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

James 1:6 - But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

1 Timothy 2:4 - Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 - And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,   (Read More...)

Acts 3:14 - But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

John 3:16-17 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.   (Read More...)

Ezekiel 3:18 - When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Jeremiah 4:23-27 - I beheld the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void; and the heavens, and they [had] no light.   (Read More...)

Ecclesiastes 11:5 - As thou knowest not what [is] the way of the spirit, [nor] how the bones [do grow] in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

Ecclesiastes 8:6 - Because to every purpose there is time and judgment, therefore the misery of man [is] great upon him.

Ecclesiastes 7:24 - That which is far off, and exceeding deep, who can find it out?

Ecclesiastes 6:12 - For who knoweth what [is] good for man in [this] life, all the days of his vain life which he spendeth as a shadow? for who can tell a man what shall be after him under the sun?

Ecclesiastes 3:11 - He hath made every [thing] beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

Proverbs 30:4 - Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what [is] his name, and what [is] his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Proverbs 24:12 - If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider [it]? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth [not] he know [it]? and shall [not] he render to [every] man according to his works?

Proverbs 20:24 - Man's goings [are] of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Proverbs 7:6-23 - For at the window of my house I looked through my casement,   (Read More...)

Job 36:26 - Behold, God [is] great, and we know [him] not, neither can the number of his years be searched out.

Leviticus 4:1-35 - And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,   (Read More...)

Genesis 20:1-18 - And Abraham journeyed from thence toward the south country, and dwelled between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned in Gerar.   (Read More...)

Revelation 13:1-18 - And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.   (Read More...)

Revelation 12:3 - And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Hebrews 2:14 - Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Ephesians 4:19 - Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Acts 17:23 - For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Acts 2:1-47 - And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.   (Read More...)

John 21:25 - And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

John 16:2 - They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Luke 21:16 - And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and [some] of you shall they cause to be put to death.

Ecclesiastes 6:11 - Seeing there be many things that increase vanity, what [is] man the better?

Proverbs 27:12 - A prudent [man] foreseeth the evil, [and] hideth himself; [but] the simple pass on, [and] are punished.

Proverbs 27:1 - Boast not thyself of to morrow; for thou knowest not what a day may bring forth.

Job 37:23 - [Touching] the Almighty, we cannot find him out: [he is] excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: he will not afflict.

Job 37:19 - Teach us what we shall say unto him; [for] we cannot order [our speech] by reason of darkness.

Job 37:15 - Dost thou know when God disposed them, and caused the light of his cloud to shine?

Job 36:29 - Also can [any] understand the spreadings of the clouds, [or] the noise of his tabernacle?

Job 28:20 - Whence then cometh wisdom? and where [is] the place of understanding?

Job 28:12 - But where shall wisdom be found? and where [is] the place of understanding?

Job 11:8 - [It is] as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?

Job 11:7 - Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?

Genesis 20:1-7 - And Abraham journeyed from thence toward the south country, and dwelled between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned in Gerar.   (Read More...)

Revelation 22:16 - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

Revelation 20:4 - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 17:8 - The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 11:2 - But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.

Revelation 9:5 - And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment [was] as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

1 Timothy 1:12 - And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

1 Corinthians 14:33 - For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 Corinthians 13:12 - For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1 Corinthians 13:9 - For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

Luke 24:1-53 - Now upon the first [day] of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain [others] with them.   (Read More...)

Luke 12:40 - Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Luke 1:35 - And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Mark 13:9 - But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/...out-Ignorance/

----------


## Terry1

> Well said.  +rep
> 
> So many people will be deceived and this particular phrase is definitely deceptive--kind of like the "Rapture Ready" folks.  If you are not in his word daily and walk with him daily you can certainly be deceived by the anti-christ and his minions.  God said 
> 
> John 8:32 - And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 
> Ephesians 4:18 - Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
> 
> Hosea 4:6 - My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
> 
> ...


Great post donnay.

----------


## Nang

> You keep supporting Nang because you came here right along with her.  How you can support anything this demon from hell claims is beyond me.



"What then shall we say to these things?  If God be for us, who can be against us?  He, who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?  Who shall bring a charge against God's elect?  It is God who justified. 

Who is he who condemns?  It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?

Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril or sword?  As it is written, _'For Your sake we are killed all day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.'  (Psalm 44:22)_

Yet, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.

For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."  Romans 8:31

Why would anyone want to oppose this blessed assurance based upon the love of Christ for His own?

----------


## Terry1

> "What then shall we say to these things?  If God be for us, who can be against us?  He, who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?  Who shall bring a charge against God's elect?  It is God who justified. 
> 
> Who is he who condemns?  It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
> 
> Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?
> 
> Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril or sword?  As it is written, _'For Your sake we are killed all day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.'  (Psalm 44:22)_
> 
> Yet, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
> ...


The devil and demons know the scriptures by heart and can recite them better than humans can---did you know that?

----------


## Nang

Terry has recently said two things about reprobates . . .

First:



> Charles Stanley also taught that a reprobate can still make it into the kingdom of heaven--which is total heresy and is Calvinism.


And secondly:





> You can lose your salvation in this life. You can fall from grace. You can walk away and be turned over to a reprobate and damned throughout all eternity.


I disagree that the first statement is Calvinistic, but I agree with Terry regarding the possibility of a reprobate ever making it into the Kingdom of God.  The very definition of a "reprobate" is a sinner being left out of the Kingdom of God.  

The second reference to reprobates confuses me, for here Terry seems to imply that reprobates are former Christians, who have not maintained their salvation and faith, who fall from grace and salvation.

This seems contradictory to me and against the explicit promises of God . . .

Considering Jesus Christ taught that none who were drawn to faith in Him for salvation, would ever be lost.  *John 6:37-40, 10:28-29*

And the Apostle John taught that those who fall way from their profession of faith, were never actually anointed by the Holy Spirit to begin with, and in fact, he even goes so far as to describe reprobates as anti-christs!*  I John 2:18-23*

Reprobation is a very serious doctrinal subject, and it is my belief anyone who is labelled "reprobate" is a soul that has no chance to receive God's grace . . . not because of behavior, for all of us are sinners.  So abstaining from sin, does not cause one to be reprobate or not.  Rather, the only thing that differentiates one sinner from another, is whether God has chosen to call and draw some sinners to saving faith in Christ Jesus.

There are only two kinds of people.  Elect sinners who will enter the glory of Christ's eternal Kingdom . . . In Him, because of Him.

 And those non-elect reprobates who remain outside of Christ, unforgiven, unjustified, unsanctified, who will never see glory, according to the sovereign will of God.

(Isaiah 6:9-10; John 12:37-41)

Thoughts?

----------


## Kevin007

> So, if you believe in the concept of "once saved, always saved," these are some Bible verses that you should read and consider because they clearly teach a differing perspective:
> 
> •Hebrews 6:4-8-- Possible to taste of salvation and then fall away.
> •II Peter 2:20-22-- Better not to know righteousness than to know it and turn back.
> •Galatians 1:6-9-- Christians are deserting Christ and pursuing another gospel.
> •Galatians 5:4-- A person who previously accepted Christ can be severed from Christ and fall from grace.
> •Philippians 2:12-13-- Salvation has to be worked out.
> •I Timothy 1:18-20-- Some men have been shipwrecked in their faith.
> •Romans 11:17-24-- Christians were grafted into the tree of Israel by faith.  They can also be cut out if they don't remain in faith.
> ...


ALL of those verses are not speaking about a believer losing their salvation. THe context of all of them is unbelievers, sanctification, etc...I don't have time now. I'll go over each verse one at a time.

Keep in mind what you are also saying is YOU can lose your salvation. So you are never sure if you are saved. Just one for starters in Hebrews 3:


Hebrews chapter 3 is about how the children of Israel rebelled when Moses was leading them out of Egypt. Verse 12 says, "See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God." Since it addresses the Hebrews as "brothers" it would seem to be written to believers. However, the verse warns the congregation not to have an unbelieving heart. In other words, it is referring to unbelievers within church. Verse 14 says we "share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end." Does this mean we lose our share of Christ is we don't hold firmly until the end? In looking at the overall context of the chapter, it is making reference to those who rebelled against Moses and God, which were the unbelievers. 

Ultimately, the passage makes this clear in verses 18-19:


     And to whom did God swear that they would never enter      his rest if not to those who disobeyed? So we see that they were not able to      enter, because of their *unbelief.* (_Hebrews 3:18-19_)


     So, the entire chapter is about unbelievers, _not_ backsliding      Christians.

----------


## Kevin007

> So, if you believe in the concept of "once saved, always saved," these are some Bible verses that you should read and consider because they clearly teach a differing perspective:
> 
> •Hebrews 6:4-8-- Possible to taste of salvation and then fall away.
> •II Peter 2:20-22-- Better not to know righteousness than to know it and turn back.
> •Galatians 1:6-9-- Christians are deserting Christ and pursuing another gospel.
> •Galatians 5:4-- A person who previously accepted Christ can be severed from Christ and fall from grace.
> •Philippians 2:12-13-- Salvation has to be worked out.
> •I Timothy 1:18-20-- Some men have been shipwrecked in their faith.
> •Romans 11:17-24-- Christians were grafted into the tree of Israel by faith.  They can also be cut out if they don't remain in faith.
> ...




Hebrews 10:26 says, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have  	received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left."  	Again,  	we must ask the question whether this verse is talking about a believer or a  	non-believer. The first big hint is that the verse is about people who  	"deliberately keep on sinning." This does not describe the typical behavior  	of a believer. Yes, believers sin, but do not live in a state of continual  	sin. In addition, verse 27 describes these people as "enemies of God," which definitely  	does not describe believers, who are children of God.  	These people are described as having "received the knowledge of the truth"  	of the gospel. However, it does not say that they ever accept the truth and  	put into effect in their own lives. Hundreds of atheists have written me at  	this site and have "received the knowledge of the truth," although very few  	have actually become Christians. Here, the author is suggesting that if a  	person receives the knowledge of the truth of the gospel, but rejects it and  	keeps on sinning, he is lost and cannot be saved, since he has rejected  	Jesus' sacrifice for sins.

Hebrews 10:36-39-; it is talking about REWARDS at the Bema Seat or the Judgment Seat of Christ- all who are judged are judged on rewards, NOT SALVATION;


 "You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised."The big question in this verse is what is the promise? *Is it salvation or  something else*? The context makes it clear. Verses 23-24 tell us "He who promised is faithful" and encourages us to "spur one another on toward love and good deeds."Verse 35 tells us we "will be richly rewarded."*So, the promise is one of rewards*. The Bible tells us that we given rewards in heaven on the basis of our good deeds.These deeds do not get us into heaven, but do determine what kinds of rewards we get.

----------


## Kevin007

> So, if you believe in the concept of "once saved, always saved," these are some Bible verses that you should read and consider because they clearly teach a differing perspective:
> 
> Hebrews 6:4-8-- Possible to taste of salvation and then fall away.
> *II Peter 2:20-22*-- Better not to know righteousness than to know it and turn back.
> Galatians 1:6-9-- Christians are deserting Christ and pursuing another gospel.
> Galatians 5:4-- A person who previously accepted Christ can be severed from Christ and fall from grace.
> Philippians 2:12-13-- Salvation has to be worked out.
> I Timothy 1:18-20-- Some men have been shipwrecked in their faith.
> Romans 11:17-24-- Christians were grafted into the tree of Israel by faith.  They can also be cut out if they don't remain in faith.
> ...


2 Peter 2:20;


2 Peter 2:20-21 says, "If they have escaped the corruption of the world  	by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it  	and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the  	beginning."Obviously, we need to know  	who the "they" are. _2 Peter 2 is a chapter about evildoers_, who attempt to  	lead others into their own lifestyle. Beginning with verse 18, the text is  	clear that the "they" are those who listen to the evildoers.


For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the  		lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just  		escaping from those who live in error. (_2 Peter 2:18_) 

	Verse 18 says "they" are "people who are just escaping from those who  	live in error." So, these people are associated with Christians and have  	begun to understand the way of righteousness, but they are not yet  	believers. Verse 21 says, "It would have been better for them not to have  	known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their  	backs on the sacred command..." So, the  	passage is clear that these people are not backsliding Christians, but those  	who have heard the word and then rejected it to follow after evildoers.

----------


## Kevin007

I will rebut the rest tonight.

----------


## Kevin007

a true believer can be assured of their salvation. The Bible says quite clearly  	that we can _know_ that we have eternal life:

 	I write these things to you who believe in the name  	of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (_1  	John 5:13_)

----------


## Terry1

> a true believer can be assured of their salvation. The Bible says quite clearly  	that we can _know_ that we have eternal life:
> 
>  	I write these things to you who believe in the name  	of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (_1  	John 5:13_)


The "Once saved always saved" lie means that no matter what you do after confession of belief--no matter how evil or unrepentant one is for the rest of their lives--they will still obtain the kingdom of heaven.  This is a lie straight from the devil's mouth.

The scripture that the OSAS people abuse all of the time is this one here: *John 10:  27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

This verse is speaking in terms of a future event--- those who have already died the first death and have been appointed to eternal life.  It does not refer to those alive on the earth at this time.  Just the same as those other verses that indicate people are "predestined"--they too are speaking of a future event--that does not occur in this life.
*

All you have to do is look at the other verses everyone has given you that refute the OSAS.  You must know that if all of scripture does not support something--then it can't be true.  That is how Gods word confirms truth or lies.

----------


## Terry1

> ALL of those verses are not speaking about a believer losing their salvation. THe context of all of them is unbelievers, sanctification, etc...I don't have time now. I'll go over each verse one at a time.
> 
> Keep in mind what you are also saying is YOU can lose your salvation. So you are never sure if you are saved. Just one for starters in Hebrews 3:
> 
> 
> Hebrews chapter 3 is about how the children of Israel rebelled when Moses was leading them out of Egypt. Verse 12 says, "See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God." Since it addresses the Hebrews as "brothers" it would seem to be written to believers. However, the verse warns the congregation not to have an unbelieving heart. In other words, it is referring to unbelievers within church. Verse 14 says we "share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end." Does this mean we lose our share of Christ is we don't hold firmly until the end? In looking at the overall context of the chapter, it is making reference to those who rebelled against Moses and God, which were the unbelievers. 
> 
> Ultimately, the passage makes this clear in verses 18-19:
> 
> ...


No you're wrong.  They are speaking about believers, not the unsaved.  They would not be correcting the unsaved for "disobedience to the faith" because they haven't been saved yet.  Does that make sense to you?

----------


## Terry1

> Terry has recently said two things about reprobates . . .
> 
> First:
> 
> 
> And secondly:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah---you're lost and haven't a clue.  Isn't there a Catholic bashing party you're missing out on today somewhere in cyberland?  You're not even a RPF, you don't belong here in the first place.

----------


## Nang

> Yeah---you're lost and haven't a clue.  Isn't there a Catholic bashing party you're missing out on today somewhere in cyberland?  You're not even a RPF, you don't belong here in the first place.


What is a "RPF?"  And why are you the only one who is so hostile?

Do you own this forum?

----------


## Nang

> *John 10:  27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
> 
> This verse is speaking in terms of a future event--- those who have already died the first death and have been appointed to eternal life.  It does not refer to those alive on the earth at this time.  Just the same as those other verses that indicate people are "predestined"--they too are speaking of a future event--that does not occur in this life.
> *


This is so dumb it is not worth arguing . . .

----------


## Terry1

> What is a "RPF?"  And why are you the only one who is so hostile?
> 
> Do you own this forum?


Hey folks--Nang here doesn't know what RPF is and wonders why I told her she doesn't belong here. ROFL!  And you have the nerve to call something I said "dumb"...LOL

No Nang--you don't belong here and you really should go back where you came from.  You're not wanted or liked here.

----------


## Nang

> Hey folks--Nang here doesn't know what RPF is and wonders why I told her she doesn't belong here. ROFL!  And you have the nerve to call something I said "dumb"...LOL
> 
> No Nang--you don't belong here and you really should go back where you came from.  You're not wanted or liked here.


I was invited to this forum.  I am a-political by nature, and after being around here for awhile, I know why.  

And I am extremely happy you do not like me, because it proves I have shined a light upon a terrible darkness.

The more you protest about my presence, the more determined I am to stay.

----------


## Terry1

> I was invited to this forum.  I am a-political by nature, and after being around here for awhile, I know why.  
> 
> And I am extremely happy you do not like me, because it proves I have shined a light upon a terrible darkness.
> 
> The more you protest about my presence, the more determined I am to stay.


Why Nang, so you can bash the Catholics, call people "wimps", "fakes", "trolls" and worse.  You're one sick person IMO.  I'm putting you on ignore because frankly--you disgust me like a foul putrid smell would.  I'll never reply to you again in this forum or acknowledge your existence as long as you remain here.  Hopefully, you'll join your friends soon.  buh-bye

----------


## Nang

> Why Nang, so you can bash the Catholics, call people "wimps", "fakes", "trolls" and worse.  You're one sick person IMO.  I'm putting you on ignore because frankly--you disgust me like a foul putrid smell would.  *I'll never reply to you again in this forum or acknowledge your existence as long as you remain here.*  Hopefully, you'll join your friends soon.  buh-bye


Whew!

This is wonderful news . . .

----------


## RJB

> ALL of those verses are not speaking about a believer losing their salvation. THe context of all of them is *unbelievers,* sanctification, etc...I don't have time now. I'll go over each verse one at a time.


This is why I can't believe OSAS and Perseverance of the Saints.  *For me to believe it, I would have to believe that most of the bible was written for non-Christians to stay non-Christians.*  Many passages warn not to go back to prior sins.  (Not rhetorical, I'm genuinely curious) *Do you believe that these verses were written to tell non-Christians how to work their way to inherit the Kingdom with out our Lord's Grace?*




> So, the entire chapter is about unbelievers, not backsliding Christians.


  I have yet to see a passage where either Jesus or an Epistle writer says, "If you believe in "Faith Alone," you may ignore these instructions." * Where does it say this?*

----------


## eduardo89

> *BTW Eduardo.*  You may want to bump your thread for the "open question for FF" for Kevin to read.  I believe posts #6 and #20 would be relevant to his misunderstandings.
> 
> Now back to OSAS and I'm really off to bed this time.


Meh, I've gotten bored of debating the same things over and over and over again with "Reformed" Christians, especially when they claim they know what the Church teaches but completely misinterpret (or worse, misrepresent) what the Church teaches.

----------


## RJB

> Meh, I've gotten bored of debating the same things over and over and over again with "Reformed" Christians, especially when they claim they know what the Church teaches but completely misinterpret (or worse, misrepresent) what the Church teaches.


I hear ya bro.  That's why I gave you the "honor."

----------


## eduardo89

> I hear ya bro.  That's why I gave you the "honor."


I'll just bump the two relevant posts:




> *BTW Eduardo.*  You may want to bump your thread for the "open question for FF" for Kevin to read. * I believe posts #6 and #20 would be relevant to his misunderstandings.*


*Post #6*




> In the other thread, you said salvation is through faith AND WORKS.  This contradicts Ephesians 2:8-9 that says the gospel is by grace, through faith, not of ourselves, and not by works.  That right there shows that you fall under the anathema of Galatians 1:8.   This is essential gospel doctrine we're talking about here.




*Post #22*




> Yeah, I know. Edaurdo, you have your answer right here.  So either you've never read Trent, you reject it, or you're lying when you say we are saved only by grace.  Which is it?

----------


## Brett85

> a true believer can be assured of their salvation. The Bible says quite clearly  	that we can _know_ that we have eternal life:
> 
>  	I write these things to you who believe in the name  	of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (_1  	John 5:13_)


I don't see what that verse has to do with eternal security.  I'm a Christian and know that I have eternal life.  That doesn't mean that I couldn't lose it if I decided to turn away from the Christian faith.

----------


## Nang

> I don't see what that verse has to do with eternal security.  I'm a Christian and know that I have eternal life.  That doesn't mean that I couldn't lose it if I decided to turn away from the Christian faith.



If one believes the Lord saves who He wills, there is no problem believing He will keep all He has saved, according to His will.

The false teaching that man wills and chooses to be saved, is what robs men of assurance in eternal salvation.  Indeed, the promiscuous will of man that might believe one thing today, and another thing tomorrow, is not to be trusted.

But the sovereign wlll of God cannot fail nor change.  God is immutable.

If Sovereign God has chosen you for salvation, nothing in heaven or earth can reverse His saving grace.  Romans 8:37-39

----------


## Kevin007

> The "Once saved always saved" lie means that no matter what you do after confession of belief--no matter how evil or unrepentant one is for the rest of their lives--they will still obtain the kingdom of heaven.  This is a lie straight from the devil's mouth.
> 
> The scripture that the OSAS people abuse all of the time is this one here: *John 10:  27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
> 
> This verse is speaking in terms of a future event--- those who have already died the first death and have been appointed to eternal life.  It does not refer to those alive on the earth at this time.  Just the same as those other verses that indicate people are "predestined"--they too are speaking of a future event--that does not occur in this life.
> *
> 
> All you have to do is look at the other verses everyone has given you that refute the OSAS.  You must know that if all of scripture does not support something--then it can't be true.  That is how Gods word confirms truth or lies.



The Bible indicates that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from *all*  	sin.  	This means that no sin a believer commits can result in condemnation or loss  	of salvation.* What about "believers" who live in a continual state of sin?  	Such individuals are 	hypocrites  	and not believers at all.* The Bible indicates that believers do not practice  	sin on a routine basis.8 A direct example of a  	believer falling into sin, but still retaining his salvation is given by  	Paul:


 	It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of  	a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife...  	hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and  	his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. (_1 Corinthians 5:1, 5_)



 	Paul indicates that the man was committing incest with his father's wife  	(mother?), yet Paul was still confident that his spirit would be saved. So,  	a true believer cannot lose his salvation through sin.

----------


## Brett85

> If one believes the Lord saves who He wills, there is no problem believing He will keep all He has saved, according to His will.
> 
> The false teaching that man wills and chooses to be saved, is what robs men of assurance in eternal salvation.  Indeed, the promiscuous will of man that might believe one thing today, and another thing tomorrow, is not to be trusted.
> 
> But the sovereign wlll of God cannot fail nor change.  God is immutable.
> 
> If Sovereign God has chosen you for salvation, nothing in heaven or earth can reverse His saving grace.  Romans 8:37-39


Yes, that's what it comes down to.  If you believe in the concept of free will, then there's no reason to believe that anyone has eternal security.  That's why I think that it's inconsistent that there are so many four point Arminians who disagree with all five points of Calvinism, except for eternal security.  It seems to me like if you believe in the concept of free will, then you have to believe that people can choose to turn away from God.  We witness that happening in our world all the time.  We see Christians lose their faith and turn from God.  God can preserve us and keep us from falling away, but that is conditioned upon us praying daily and asking him to help us persevere in our faith.

----------


## Kevin007

Baptizing was not equated with the gospel preached  to save people from their sins.  Paul says what the gospel is later on in  this same letter: 

1 Cor 15:1-4: “ _Moreover, brethren, I declare to you  the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you  stand,  by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I  preached to you-- unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first  of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according  to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third  day according to the Scriptures”_

----------


## Kevin007

keep in mind baptism is just an OUTWARD sign of an INWARD change (salvation).

----------


## Brett85

> keep in mind baptism is just an OUTWARD sign of an INWARD change (salvation).


I lean towards thinking that Baptism isn't required for salvation, but how do you interpret Acts 2:38?  

Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

----------


## Nang

> Yes, that's what it comes down to.  If you believe in the concept of free will, then there's no reason to believe that anyone has eternal security.  That's why I think that it's inconsistent that there are so many four point Arminians who disagree with all five points of Calvinism, except for eternal security.  It seems to me like if you believe in the concept of free will, then you have to believe that people can choose to turn away from God.  We witness that happening in our world all the time.


Exactly what is happening . . .





> We see Christians lose their faith and turn from God.  God can preserve us and keep us from falling away, but that is conditioned upon us praying daily and asking him to help us persevere in our faith.


Faith is a gift from God that God does not take away.  Faith is an unconditional gift of His grace, and therefore, it is His promise to keep His children in the faith He has given them.  What kind of God would give sinners faith to believe, and then take it away from them?  That is too monstrous to contemplate.

Either faith is a human choice, subject to change and/or loss . . . or faith is gifted and guaranteed by God unto everlasting life.

There is no middle grounds for salvation.  Either salvation is worked by the mutable will of the creature, or it is worked by the immutable will of the Creator.

----------


## Kevin007

(Baptism)-

People are saved by    simple faith in Christ, without any act of righteousness, and baptism is never    mentioned as a part of the plan of salvation. Baptism is an act of    righteousness, for Jesus said in Matthew 3:15, "Thus it becometh us to fulfill    all righteousness." Titus 3:5 says that such acts of righteousness do not save    us: 


*"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his    mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy    Ghost."

* 

   Baptism is certainly a good work, but Ephesians 2:8,9 likewise says plainly    that salvation is altogether a matter of God's mercy and not of our works :


*"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it    is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast."*

----------


## Nang

> keep in mind baptism is just an OUTWARD sign of an INWARD change (salvation).


EXACTLY!

Baptism is not a cause of salvation but a witness of the salvation gifted by the grace of God.

----------


## Kevin007

> Exactly what is happening . . .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Faith is a gift from God that God does not take away.  Faith is an unconditional gift of His grace, and therefore, it is His promise to keep His children in the faith He has given them.  What kind of God would give sinners faith to believe, and then take it away from them?  That is too monstrous to contemplate.
> 
> Either faith is a human choice, subject to change and/or loss . . . or faith is gifted and guaranteed by God unto everlasting life.
> 
> There is no middle grounds for salvation.  Either salvation is worked by the mutable will of the creature, or it is worked by the immutable will of the Creator.


imagine Nang what a miserable life it must be not to fully trust in Jesus' finished work "oops did I just sin? Will God forgive me? Will I lose my salvation"?

wow..........

----------


## Kevin007

I think the bottom line is people who do not believe in OSAS have a lack of faith in Jesus It is not about us, but Him.

----------


## RJB

Bump for this post.  I've never seen the claim that a number of passages of the Christian bible apply to non-believers and not Christians until I joined RPFs.  This is a MAJOR stumbling block for me as far as accepting this concept. * I'd like to see how you rationalize this.  I may ask questions, but you have my word that my sarcasm will be gone in this case.  I'm genuinely curious.*




> ALL of those verses are not speaking about a believer losing their salvation. THe context of all of them is *unbelievers,* sanctification, etc...I don't have time now. I'll go over each verse one at a time.


This is why I can't believe OSAS and Perseverance of the Saints.  *For me to believe it, I would have to believe that most of the bible was written for non-Christians to stay non-Christians.*  Many passages warn not to go back to prior sins.  (Not rhetorical, I'm genuinely curious) *Do you believe that these verses were written to tell non-Christians how to work their way to inherit the Kingdom with out our Lord's Grace?*




> So, the entire chapter is about unbelievers, not backsliding Christians.


  I have yet to see a passage where either Jesus or an Epistle writer says, "If you believe in "Faith Alone," you may ignore these instructions." * Where does it say this?*

----------


## Nang

> I think the bottom line is people who do not believe in OSAS have a lack of faith in Jesus It is not about us, but Him.


Anyone who does not have faith in God to keep them unto everlasting life, denies His Person, His purpose, His grace, and His gospel message.  

Yep.  It is all about Him. . .

----------


## Kevin007

> I lean towards thinking that Baptism isn't required for salvation, but how do you interpret Acts 2:38?  
> 
> Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."


(John 5:24, John 11:25-26, John 14:6, Romans 4:5, Romans 10:9-13, Eph.            2:8-9, etc.), and the few places that do mention water baptism do not            include it as part of one's salvation. Water baptism follows salvation            as one of the first steps of obedience for the new believer.


TC- Every person in Acts            2 is a Mosaic law observing Old Testament Jew.

----------


## RJB

> I think the bottom line is people who do not believe in OSAS have a lack of faith in Jesus It is not about us, but Him.


It's the opposite.  The bible gives us (Christians) directions.  Those who have faith, hope and love in God do their best to follow His directions.

----------


## Nang

> Bump for this post.  I've never seen the claim that a number of passages of the Christian bible apply to non-believers and not Christians until I joined RPFs.  This is a MAJOR stumbling block for me as far as accepting this concept. * I'd like to see how you rationalize this.  I may ask questions, but you have my word that my sarcasm will be gone in this case.  I'm genuinely curious.*
> 
> 
> This is why I can't believe OSAS and Perseverance of the Saints.  *For me to believe it, I would have to believe that most of the bible was written for non-Christians to stay non-Christians.*  Many passages warn not to go back to prior sins.  (Not rhetorical, I'm genuinely curious) *Do you believe that these verses were written to tell non-Christians how to work their way to inherit the Kingdom with out our Lord's Grace?*
> 
>   I have yet to see a passage where either Jesus or an Epistle writer says, "If you believe in "Faith Alone," you may ignore these instructions." * Where does it say this?*


The reason these warnings are in Scripture, is because the visible earthly churches are filled with counterfeit believers; tares planted by the devil, who temporally co-exist amongst the wheat.

God is not mocked, but He is fair.  He warns hypocrites who love to practice unbiblical religion, that they will not endure in their fakery.

----------


## Kevin007

> Bump for this post.  I've never seen the claim that a number of passages of the Christian bible apply to non-believers and not Christians until I joined RPFs.  This is a MAJOR stumbling block for me as far as accepting this concept. * I'd like to see how you rationalize this.  I may ask questions, but you have my word that my sarcasm will be gone in this case.  I'm genuinely curious.*
> 
> 
> This is why I can't believe OSAS and Perseverance of the Saints.  *For me to believe it, I would have to believe that most of the bible was written for non-Christians to stay non-Christians.*  Many passages warn not to go back to prior sins.  (Not rhetorical, I'm genuinely curious) Do you believe that these verses were written to tell non-Christians how to work their way to inherit the Kingdom with out our Lord's Grace?
> 
>   I have yet to see a passage where either Jesus or an Epistle writer says, "If you believe in "Faith Alone," you may ignore these instructions." * Where does it say this?*


?????

----------


## Brett85

> TC- [/FONT][/FONT]Every person in Acts            2 is a Mosaic law observing Old Testament Jew.


This happened after Christ's death and resurrection, and it was something Peter said.

----------


## Kevin007

> The reason these warnings are in Scripture, is because the visible earthly churches are filled with counterfeit believers; tares planted by the devil, co-exist amongst the wheat.
> 
> God is not mocked, but He is fair.  He warns hypocrites who love to practice unbiblical religion, that they will not endure in their fakery.


SAID BETTER THAN ME

----------


## Brett85

> imagine Nang what a miserable life it must be not to fully trust in Jesus' finished work "oops did I just sin? Will God forgive me? Will I lose my salvation"?
> 
> wow..........


Do you think you would still be saved and make it to heaven if you lost your faith and became an unbeliever?  Can someone make it to heaven even if they're not a believer at the end of their lives?

----------


## Kevin007

> It's the opposite.  The bible gives us (Christians) directions.  Those who have faith, hope and love in God do their best to follow His directions.


OF course they do. OSAS Believer's follow the Lord too; but we do not believe that anything other than what Jesus did for us saves us.

----------


## Kevin007

> Do you think you would still be saved and make it to heaven if you lost your faith and became an unbeliever?  Can someone make it to heaven even if they're not a believer at the end of their lives?


where can you honestly see a Believer becoming a non-Believer? In my 41 years I have never met one.

----------


## eduardo89

> but we do not believe that anything other than what Jesus did for us saves us.


How Catholic of you.

----------


## Brett85

> The reason these warnings are in Scripture, is because the visible earthly churches are filled with counterfeit believers; tares planted by the devil, co-exist amongst the wheat.
> 
> God is not mocked, but He is fair.  He warns hypocrites who love to practice unbiblical religion, that they will not endure in their fakery.


People aren't half saved and half unsaved.  People are either saved or they aren't saved.  All of these verses that have been referenced are referring to believers.  You can't depart from the faith if you never had faith to begin with.  

1 Timothy 4:1

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will *fall away from the faith*, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

----------


## Kevin007

> Do you think you would still be saved and make it to heaven if you lost your faith and became an unbeliever?  Can someone make it to heaven even if they're not a believer at the end of their lives?


btw losing your faith is a misnomer. Losing faith does not equate to losing your salvation, which is permanent. Jesus finished that. Losing your faith- for a moment, a day or for a decade does not cause you to lose your eternal status as a child of God. Christians lose faith all the time. THESE THINGS are temporal, not eternal.

----------


## Kevin007

> How Catholic of you.


what are you talking about?

----------


## Brett85

> where can you honestly see a Believer becoming a non-Believer? In my 41 years I have never met one.


I've known a lot and have read countless stories of people who have lost their faith and become an unbeliever.  I think you've said that you believe in the concept of free will before, and as someone who believes in the concept of free will, I don't understand how you can say that people can't choose to turn away from God.

----------


## eduardo89

> what are you talking about?


You believe that nothing we can do can ever merit our salvation, and it is only through Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross that salvation is possible for us. Exactly what the Church has always taught  Glad to see you're orthodox in at least that teaching.

----------


## Kevin007

> People aren't half saved and half unsaved.  People are either saved or they aren't saved.  All of these verses that have been referenced are referring to believers.  You can't depart from the faith if you never had faith to begin with.  
> 
> 1 Timothy 4:1
> 
> But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will *fall away from the faith*, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,


The fact that some people fall away from the faith does not mean  	that they were ever saved, but that they had professed to be  	Christians at some point in time. They knew about the Lord Jesus Christ and professed for a time to follow Him, but then they  	apostatized from the faith.

----------


## Brett85

> btw losing your faith is a misnomer. Losing faith does not equate to losing your salvation, which is permanent. Jesus finished that. Losing your faith- for a moment, a day or for a decade does not cause you to lose your eternal status as a child of God. Christians lose faith all the time. THESE THINGS are temporal, not eternal.


Ok, so what you're saying is that someone can lose their faith and die an unbeliever and still make it to heaven.  That seems like a really liberal view to me.  I just don't think it has any basis in the Bible.

----------


## Kevin007

> You believe that nothing we can do can ever merit our salvation, and it is only through Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross that salvation is possible for us. Exactly what the Church has always taught  Glad to see you're orthodox in at least that teaching.


so why do you add your sacraments, church membership, indulgences, etc etc?

----------


## Kevin007

> Ok, so what you're saying is that someone can lose their faith and die an unbeliever and still make it to heaven.  That seems like a really liberal view to me.  I just don't think it has any basis in the Bible.


I never said that- YOU are equating losing faith with losing salvation- not the same; you can lose the faith, but not the salvation.

----------


## Nang

> People aren't half saved and half unsaved.  People are either saved or they aren't saved.  All of these verses that have been referenced are referring to believers.  You can't depart from the faith if you never had faith to begin with.  
> 
> 1 Timothy 4:1
> 
> But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will *fall away from the faith*, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,


These fall away from their deceitful and hypocritical profession of faith, but they prove to never have been anointed with the Holy Spirit and brought into union with Jesus Christ.  I John 4:19-19-20

----------


## Brett85

> The fact that some people fall away from the faith does not mean  	that they were ever saved, but that they had professed to be  	Christians at some point in time. They knew about the Lord Jesus Christ and professed for a time to follow Him, but then they  	apostatized from the faith.


Yeah, that just seems like parsing words to me.  I don't think that it's possible to fall away from the faith if you weren't part of the faith to begin with.  There's no such thing has half saved, half unsaved.

----------


## Kevin007

> I've known a lot and have read countless stories of people who have lost their faith and become an unbeliever.  I think you've said that you believe in the concept of free will before, and as someone who believes in the concept of free will, I don't understand how you can say that people can't choose to turn away from God.


they can turn away from God but the HS still lives inside that Believer, he is still His sheep; He will not lose one.

----------


## Kevin007

> Yeah, that just seems like parsing words to me.  I don't think that it's possible to fall away from the faith if you weren't part of the faith to begin with.  *There's no such thing has half saved, half unsaved*.


well, that is what I see from those that believe they can lose their salvation; saved, then unsaved.

----------


## Brett85

> I never said that- YOU are equating losing faith with losing salvation- not the same; you can lose the faith, but not the salvation.


No, I think you did say that.  If someone loses their faith and dies while they've lost the faith they once had, will that person go to heaven or not?

----------


## Kevin007

> No, I think you did say that.  If someone loses their faith and dies while they've lost the faith they once had, will that person go to heaven or not?


If that person believed in Jesus as Savior, of course. Losing your faith is not the same as losing your salvation; you did not earn your salvation, Jesus did.

----------


## RJB

> The reason these warnings are in Scripture, is because the visible earthly churches are filled with counterfeit believers; tares planted by the devil, who temporally co-exist amongst the wheat.
> 
> God is not mocked, but He is fair.  He warns hypocrites who love to practice unbiblical religion, that they will not endure in their fakery.


Thanks.  That makes a little more sense to me, but...
 Then why not say "Have Faith Alone," VS giving us directions on how to act in our lives.

----------


## Brett85

> they can turn away from God but the HS still lives inside that Believer, he is still His sheep; He will not lose one.


Well, to each his own.  But that just isn't Biblical at all.  I think it's a really dangerous theology to tell people that they can just do whatever they want to do, even stop believing, and they'll still make it to heaven because of a one time profession of faith.

----------


## eduardo89

> so why do you add your sacraments,


Because the Sacraments instituted by Christ Himself are the means by which we receive grace, they are visible signs of invisible grace.




> church membership,


Because there is no salvation outside the Church. This is a teaching that even the Reformers did not dispute. Some, like the Eucharist are even commanded by Christ (Luke 22:19).




> indulgences, etc etc?


Have nothing to do with salvation, so I have no idea why you bring that up.

----------


## Brett85

> If that person believed in Jesus as Savior, of course. Losing your faith is not the same as losing your salvation; you did not earn your salvation, Jesus did.


But the hypothetical person I'm talking about believed in Jesus as Savior at one point, but didn't believe in him when he died.

----------


## Kevin007

> Thanks.  That makes a little more sense to me, but...
> *Then why not say "Have Faith Alone," VS giving us directions on how to act in our lives.*




faith alone for salvation; VS the rest for SANCTIFICATION.

----------


## Kevin007

> But the hypothetical person I'm talking about believed in Jesus as Savior at one point, but didn't believe in him when he died.


How do you know they did? This assumption is not possible.

----------


## Kevin007

> Because the Sacraments instituted by Christ Himself are the means by which we receive grace, they are visible signs of invisible grace.
> 
> 
> 
> Because there is no salvation outside the Church. This is a teaching that even the Reformers did not dispute.
> 
> 
> 
> Have nothing to do with salvation, so I have no idea why you bring that up.


no- the sacraments do not provide grace at all, only Jesus does.

----------


## Kevin007

> Well, to each his own.  But that just isn't Biblical at all.  I think it's a really dangerous theology to tell people that they can just do whatever they want to do, even stop believing, and they'll still make it to heaven because of a one time profession of faith.


no one is saying that friend.

----------


## Brett85

> no one is saying that friend.


I think you are.  The once saved always saved doctrine just gives people a license to sin, just gives them a license to do whatever they want to do without fear of losing their salvation.

----------


## eduardo89

> no- the sacraments do not provide grace at all, only Jesus does.


This post just shows how you do not understand at all what you are arguing against.

----------


## Nang

> I think you are.  The once saved always saved doctrine just gives people a license to sin, just gives them a license to do whatever they want to do without fear of losing their salvation.


Some weird people, TC, but not all.

Many believe in Eternal Security and call it OSAS, that do not believe in any license to sin at all.

It has become a weak doctrine because of the fact that some have used it in this way, and that is why I prefer the Reformed teaching of Eternal Security as taught by Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints, which focuses and bases this teaching  upon the grace of God, and away from the fallacy of "decisional regeneration."

----------


## Kevin007

> I think you are.  The once saved always saved doctrine just gives people a license to sin, just gives them a license to do whatever they want to do without fear of losing their salvation.


*Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ*6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin—

----------


## Kevin007

> This post just shows how you do not understand at all what you are arguing against.


of course I know- you think Jesus is "in" the sacraments- He is not; He is in Heaven sitting at the right hand of God; your priest cannot call Him down from His throne to be turned into a cookie.

----------


## Kevin007

> Some weird people, TC, but not all.
> 
> Many believe in Eternal Security and call it OSAS, that do not believe in any license to sin at all.
> 
> It has become a weak doctrine because of the fact that some have used it in this way, and that is why I prefer the Reformed teaching of Eternal Security as taught by Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints, which focuses and bases this teaching  upon the grace of God, and away from the fallacy of "decisional regeneration."


see my reply; this is what I believe.

----------


## RJB

> [/B]
> 
> faith alone for salvation; VS the rest for SANCTIFICATION.


*Every* biblical passage (that I'm aware of) when it says how we will be judged, inherit the Kingdom, receive eternal life, etc. it gives a list of dos and don'ts that are WILLFUL acts.  I don't see how someone can brush this aside and claim it wasn't written for them.




> Romans2:7 To those who by *persistence* in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, *he will give eternal life.* 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and *follow* evil, there will be wrath and anger


*This passage does not end with "but if you have Faith Alone, this does not apply to you."*  I get that I must *persist* in doing good and *not to follow* evil.  People with faith still are tempted.  It doesn't appear that the Devil has given up to lead us astray.

----------


## Brett85

> *Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ*6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
> 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin—


And how is that verse consistent with what you said earlier?




> Paul indicates that the man was committing incest with his father's wife  	(mother?), yet Paul was still confident that his spirit would be saved. So,  	*a true believer cannot lose his salvation through sin.*

----------


## eduardo89

> of course I know- you think Jesus is "in" the sacraments- He is not; He is in Heaven sitting at the right hand of God; *your priest cannot call Him down from His throne to be turned into a cookie.*


Once again, your comment shows how ignorant you are of what the Eucharist is and of Eucharistic theology.

----------


## Kevin007

The man who trusts    in Christ has everlasting life *immediately*. 

John 3:36 says: 


*"He that believeth on the Son HATH everlasting life: and he that    believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on    him."

* 


 John 5:24    says: 


*"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth    on him that sent me, HATH everlasting life, and shall not come into    condemnation: but IS PASSED from death unto life."

* 

   The same teaching is given in John 6:47: 


*"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me HATH    everlasting life."

Salvation/being saved is present tense.
*

----------


## Kevin007

> Once again, your comment shows how ignorant you are of what the Eucharist is and of Eucharistic theology.


actually practicing eating God's real flesh is cannibalism.

----------


## Kevin007

> And how is that verse consistent with what you said earlier?


what do you mean? both prove my point.

----------


## eduardo89

> actually practicing eating God's real flesh is cannibalism.


That was one of the accusations used against the early Christians by the Jews and Romans.

----------


## Kevin007

> That was one of the accusations used against the early Christians.


lol....the RCC has so many false doctrines, please stop defending them. Come out from the harlot!

----------


## Brett85

> The man who trusts    in Christ has everlasting life *immediately*. 
> 
> John 3:36 says: 
> 
> 
> *"He that believeth on the Son HATH everlasting life: and he that    believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on    him."
> 
> * 
> 
> ...


I agree with all of those verses that we gain everlasting life when we accept Christ as our Savior.  I don't see how those verses are evidence for eternal security though.  Just because you have something doesn't mean that it's not possible to lose it.

----------


## eduardo89

> lol....the RCC has so many false doctrines, please stop defending them.


I'll continue to defend what thousands upon thousands of saints and martyrs died to pass down. From the earliest Christian writings we see that the Eucharist has *always* been considered to be the flesh and blood of our Lord and Saviour.

What you should stop defending are your innovative doctrines that have no antecedents, biblical or historical, in the first 1600 years of Christianity. 




> Come out from the harlot!


Follow the forum guidelines and be respectful. I have not insulted your eclesial community, so please do not insult the Church. You can review the religion sub-forum's guidelines here: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...r-lack-thereof

----------


## Nang

> Just because you have something doesn't mean that it's not possible to lose it.


Depends upon who gives you life . . .

If Eternal God gives you life, it is Eternal Life.

That simple . . .

He promises everlasting life to His children.  Not just life for a month, a year, or until they screw up.

Jesus Christ paid for all our sins; past, present, and future.  They are gone!  As far as the east is from the west.

That is called Justification.  The accomplishment of the sufferings and death of the Christ on the cross.

The forgiveness of God is forever.  Rest in that blessed truth, TC.

----------


## Nang

> I'll continue to defend what thousands upon thousands of saints and martyrs died to pass down. From the earliest Christian writings we see that the Eucharist has *always* been considered to be the flesh and blood of our Lord and Saviour.
> 
> What you should stop defending are your innovative doctrines that have no antecedents, biblical or historical, in the first 1600 years of Christianity. 
> 
> 
> 
> Follow the forum guidelines and be respectful. I have not insulted your eclesial community, so please do not insult the Church. You can review the religion sub-forum's guidelines here: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...r-lack-thereof


Come out from the harlot!

That is the command of Holy Scripture to those caught up in her false gospels.

Nothing in the guidelines say we cannot speak the words of God to one another.

(And you should not complain, compared to the rules violations Terry got away with these past few days!!!)

----------


## Kevin007

> Depends upon who gives you life . . .
> 
> If Eternal God gives you life, it is Eternal Life.
> 
> That simple . . .
> 
> He promises everlasting life to His children.  Not just life for a month, a year, or until they screw up.
> 
> Jesus Christ paid for all our sins; past, present, and future.  They are gone!  As far as the east is from the west.
> ...


AMEN!

----------


## Kevin007

> I'll continue to defend what thousands upon thousands of saints and martyrs died to pass down. From the earliest Christian writings we see that the Eucharist has *always* been considered to be the flesh and blood of our Lord and Saviour.
> 
> What you should stop defending are your innovative doctrines that have no antecedents, biblical or historical, in the first 1600 years of Christianity. 
> 
> 
> 
> Follow the forum guidelines and be respectful. I have not insulted your eclesial community, so please do not insult the Church. You can review the religion sub-forum's guidelines here: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...r-lack-thereof


MY Apologies....

----------


## Brett85

> Jesus Christ paid for all our sins; past, present, and future.


Yes, but the Bible makes it clear over and over again that repentance is a prerequisite for being forgiven.  There's nothing to be forgiven for if we don't acknowledge that we have sin and repent of our sins.

----------


## Kevin007

> *Yes, but the Bible makes it clear over and over again that repentance is a prerequisite for being forgiven.*  There's nothing to be forgiven for if we don't acknowledge that we have sin and repent of our sins.


you are confusing salvation and human forgiveness and God's forgiveness imo.

----------


## RJB

> Yes, but the Bible makes it clear over and over again that repentance is a prerequisite for being forgiven.  There's nothing to be forgiven for if we don't acknowledge that we have sin and repent of our sins.


I guess some believe that if I called someone on the forum an idiot, but apologized, I could continue to call them idiots without apologizing and have no fear of getting banned because I apologized once.

----------


## Nang

> Yes, but the Bible makes it clear over and over again that repentance is a prerequisite for being forgiven.


The Bible makes it clear that faith and repentance are both the results of being forgiven (Justified).

Justification produces belief in the righteousness of Jesus Christ and it produces true repentance (turning away from) sin.

You have been taught the truth backwards.  You have been told that works of repentance will bring forgiveness, but it is just the opposite.






> There's nothing to be forgiven for if we don't acknowledge that we have sin and repent of our sins.


I think what you are trying to get across, is that until we are Justified, we are not fully aware of our sinfulness.  No sinner truly repents until they are born again from above and spiritually convicted of their sins.

But forgiveness comes before repentance.  Repentance is not in the heart of unregenerate men.  Neither is faith inherent to unregenerate men.

Regeneration precedes both faith and repentance.

----------


## Kevin007

John 3:36 says: 
*"He that believeth on the Son HATH everlasting life: and he that    believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on    him."* 
   "Hath" means has, present tense, in modern English. Likewise, John 5:24    says: 
*"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth    on him that sent me, HATH everlasting life, and shall not come into    condemnation: but IS PASSED from death unto life."* 
   The same teaching is given in John 6:47: 
*"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me HATH    everlasting life."*

----------


## Brett85

> You have been taught the truth backwards.  You have been told that works of repentance will bring forgiveness, but it is just the opposite.


I haven't really been "taught" any of the views that I'm presenting.  I just read the Bible and studied it for myself and came to my own conclusions.

----------


## erowe1

..

----------


## Brett85

> Justification produces belief in the righteousness of Jesus Christ and it produces true repentance (turning away from) sin.


Well, you don't see that in a lot of Christians.  A lot of people believe that they're saved by a one time confession of faith, so they don't have to do a single thing after that or ever confess their sin.  They're taught that being a Christian is all about a one time profession of faith, rather than a lifestyle of walking with Christ.  They're taught this by people who constantly condemn doing good works and teach that a one time confession of faith is enough to be saved.

----------


## Terry1

> lol....the RCC has so many false doctrines, please stop defending them. Come out from the harlot!


Jerusalem is the Harlot mentioned in the bible--not the Catholic church.  There are scriptures that confirm that all through the Old and New testaments.


Ezekiel 16:

*Jerusalem’s Harlotry*

15 “*But you trusted in your own beauty, played the harlot because of your fame, and poured out your harlotry on everyone passing by who would have it.*  16 You took some of your garments and adorned multicolored high places for yourself, and played the harlot on them. Such things should not happen, nor be.  17 You have also taken your beautiful jewelry from My gold and My silver, which I had given you, and made for yourself male images and played the harlot with them.  18 You took your embroidered garments and covered them, and you set My oil and My incense before them.  19 Also My food which I gave you—the pastry of fine flour, oil, and honey which I fed you—you set it before them as sweet incense; and so it was,” says the Lord God.

20 “Moreover you took your sons and your daughters, whom you bore to Me, and these you sacrificed to them to be devoured. Were your acts of harlotry a small matter,  21 that you have slain My children and offered them up to them by causing them to pass through the fire?  22 And in all your abominations and acts of harlotry you did not remember the days of your youth, when you were naked and bare, struggling in your blood.

23 “Then it was so, after all your wickedness—‘Woe, woe to you!’ says the Lord God—  24 that you also built for yourself a shrine, and made a high place for yourself in every street.  25 You built your high places at the head of every road, and made your beauty to be abhorred. You offered yourself to everyone who passed by, and multiplied your acts of harlotry.  26 You also committed harlotry with the Egyptians, your very fleshly neighbors, and increased your acts of harlotry to provoke Me to anger.

27 “Behold, therefore, I stretched out My hand against you, diminished your allotment, and gave you up to the will of those who hate you, the daughters of the Philistines, who were ashamed of your lewd behavior.  28 You also played the harlot with the Assyrians, because you were insatiable; indeed you played the harlot with them and still were not satisfied.  29 Moreover you multiplied your acts of harlotry as far as the land of the trader, Chaldea; and even then you were not satisfied.

30 “How degenerate is your heart!” says the Lord God, “seeing you do all these things, the deeds of a brazen harlot.

Jerusalem’s Adultery

31 “You erected your shrine at the head of every road, and built your high place in every street. *Yet you were not like a harlot, because you scorned payment.  32 You are an adulterous wife, who takes strangers instead of her husband. * 33 Men make payment to all harlots, but you made your payments to all your lovers, and hired them to come to you from all around for your harlotry.  34 You are the opposite of other women in your harlotry, because no one solicited you to be a harlot. In that you gave payment but no payment was given you, therefore you are the opposite.”

*Jerusalem’s Lovers Will Abuse Her*

35* ‘Now then, O harlot, hear the word of the Lord!*  36 Thus says the Lord God: “Because your filthiness was poured out and your nakedness uncovered in your harlotry with your lovers, and with all your abominable idols, and because of the blood of your children which you gave to them,  37 surely, therefore, I will gather all your lovers with whom you took pleasure, all those you loved, and all those you hated; I will gather them from all around against you and will uncover your nakedness to them, that they may see all your nakedness.  38 And I will judge you as women who break wedlock or shed blood are judged; I will bring blood upon you in fury and jealousy.  39 I will also give you into their hand, and they shall throw down your shrines and break down your high places. They shall also strip you of your clothes, take your beautiful jewelry, and leave you naked and bare.

40 “They shall also bring up an assembly against you, and they shall stone you with stones and thrust you through with their swords.  41 They shall burn your houses with fire, and execute judgments on you in the sight of many women; and I will make you cease playing the harlot, and you shall no longer hire lovers.  42 So I will lay to rest My fury toward you, and My jealousy shall depart from you. I will be quiet, and be angry no more.  43 Because you did not remember the days of your youth, but agitated Me[a] with all these things, surely I will also recompense your deeds on your own head,” says the Lord God. “And you shall not commit lewdness in addition to all your abominations.

More Wicked than Samaria and Sodom

44 “Indeed everyone who quotes proverbs will use this proverb against you: ‘Like mother, like daughter!’  45 You are your mother’s daughter, loathing husband and children; and you are the sister of your sisters, who loathed their husbands and children; your mother was a Hittite and your father an Amorite.

46 “Your elder sister is Samaria, who dwells with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who dwells to the south of you, is Sodom and her daughters.  47 You did not walk in their ways nor act according to their abominations; but, as if that were too little, you became more corrupt than they in all your ways.

48 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “neither your sister Sodom nor her daughters have done as you and your daughters have done.  49 Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.  50 And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit.[b]

51 “Samaria did not commit half of your sins; but you have multiplied your abominations more than they, and have justified your sisters by all the abominations which you have done.  52 You who judged your sisters, bear your own shame also, because the sins which you committed were more abominable than theirs; they are more righteous than you. Yes, be disgraced also, and bear your own shame, because you justified your sisters.

53 “When I bring back their captives, the captives of Sodom and her daughters, and the captives of Samaria and her daughters, then I will also bring back the captives of your captivity among them,  54 that you may bear your own shame and be disgraced by all that you did when you comforted them.  55 When your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, then you and your daughters will return to your former state.  56 For your sister Sodom was not a byword in your mouth in the days of your pride,  57 before your wickedness was uncovered. It was like the time of the reproach of the daughters of Syria[c] and all those around her, and of the daughters of the Philistines, who despise you everywhere.  58 You have paid for your lewdness and your abominations,” says the Lord.  59 For thus says the Lord God: “I will deal with you as you have done, who despised the oath by breaking the covenant.

2 Chronicles 21:

12 And a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet, saying,


Thus says the Lord God of your father David:

Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father, or in the ways of Asa king of Judah,  13 but have walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and have made Judah and the *inhabitants of Jerusalem to play the harlot like the harlotry of the house of Ahab*, and also have killed your brothers, those of your father’s household, who were better than yourself,  14 behold, the Lord will strike your people with a serious affliction—your children, your wives, and all your possessions;  15 and you will become very sick with a disease of your intestines, until your intestines come out by reason of the sickness, day by day.



And there are many more telling you that Jerusalem is the Harlot that will ride the beast---not the Catholic church.

There's no excuse for this kind of ignorance because Gods word is clear.  Where in the word of God have you EVER seen where it claims that the Catholic church is the Harlot?  It doesn't---you assumed that because someone else ignorant of the word of God taught it to you.

----------


## Terry1

Jerusalem is the whore of Babylon that will ride the beast of Revelation---not the Catholic church.



*Revelation 11:8 
And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Revelation 14:8 
And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”*

Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem---NOT ROME.

----------


## Terry1

> of course I know- you think Jesus is "in" the sacraments- He is not; He is in Heaven sitting at the right hand of God; your priest cannot call Him down from His throne to be turned into a cookie.


You judge the Catholic brethren in ignorance.  You do not know what you're saying, nor are you correct about anything you've said yet.  You take the bread and wine---They take the Eucharist, what you and they both do---they do unto the Lord in honor, worship and respect for Him.  

Silly man!  Do you not know what you do here now today?  The word of God will judge you by the same measure you have judged the brethren of God as it says right here:

*Romans 14:

 3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.*

----------


## Terry1

The protestant reformers have done great damage to the body of Christ--and judged the faithful servants of God unjustly and without cause and for this too--they will be judged by that same measure and worse.  

The doctrines spewed by the protestant reformers have come from the wolves and demons straight from hell IMO.  These protestant doctrines are leading the sheep astray with the teachings of Luther and Calvin--the protestants have adopted these teachings some to lessor or greater degrees in their churches and they persecute the Catholics for their doctrine daily to this day.  

You silly judgmental protestants who unjustly judge the brethren and condemn them will meet with your own judgments just the same as God promised.  You silly judgmental protestants with your OSAS and Predestination doctrines--your five point TULIP heresy---and you have the gonads to judge the other brethren in Christ.  God who is the righteous judge will have His judgments upon you as well on that day.  Be very careful who you judge--especially the brethren in Christ because they are Gods true elect--they are protected and God will have vengeance upon those who harm His "little ones".

Gods children reside both in Catholic and protestant faiths---those who unjustly judge the other will meet with that same judgment on that day.

----------


## Terry1

> I think the bottom line is people who do not believe in OSAS have a lack of faith in Jesus It is not about us, but Him.


It's not that we have a lack of faith, but rather we do not presume upon God whom He has chosen in this life.  Because we know that this life is a test of our faith.  That is why no where in the word of God does any of the Apostles, Prophets or teaches tell you that you have already been "perfected" in this life.  No flesh and blood shall inherit the kingdom of heaven.  This life and test of it isn't over until it's over as Apostle Paul only confirmed that he knew he was saved at the very end of his life and that he's finished the race and been proven to have kept the faith--here:

Pauls Valedictory
2 Timothy 4:
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand.  7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.  8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Then here in 2 Timothy--Paul states that the "that the elect may obtain".  Indicating that it's still possible for the elect to fall away until they've finished their race and test of faith in this life.  


*2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.*

Every scripture in the New Testament indicates that our salvation "might be" or "may be" or they "may obtain".  There is never a guarantee given anywhere.  Why do you think that believers are warned all throughout the New Testament as to what can happen to them if they stop abiding in Christ?

If everyone was "once saved always saved"--there would be no instructions or warning to them and no reason to walk in the fear of the Lord and the comfort of the Holy Spirit here:
*
Acts 9:31*

*Then the churches throughout all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and were edified. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, they were multiplied*

Why should any believer "walk in the fear of the Lord" who believes they have nothing to fear from Him?  God warns you what can happen to you if you stop abiding in Him.  Believers who fall back into unbelief for too long bearing no fruit can and do get cut off permanently from God.

*John 15: 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.  6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned*

----------


## Terry1

The only reason I could see that anyone would fight to defend the OSAS doctrine is because they have some deadly sin they do not want to give up and want to believe that despite what they're doing the Holy Spirit is trying to speak to them about this sin and they don't want to listen---hence the OSAS doctrine gives them a free pass to commit them to continue doing something the Holy Spirit is telling them they need to stop doing.  This is actually how one grieves the Holy Spirit and is a very dangerous belief.

----------


## Miss Annie

> The only reason I could see that anyone would fight to defend the OSAS doctrine is because they have some deadly sin they do not want to give up and want to believe that despite what they're doing the Holy Spirit is trying to speak to them about this sin and they don't want to listen---hence the OSAS doctrine gives them a free pass to commit them to continue doing something the Holy Spirit is telling them they need to stop doing.  This is actually how one grieves the Holy Spirit and is a very dangerous belief.


With this I have to disagree though.  I don't think we can ever judge a person's heart or life.  Personally we just can't know.  I happen to think that there are a many junkie that die with a needle in their arms and go and rest in Jesus' arms.  Why?  Because we just do not know what they have already overcome.  We can tend to look at them and say "Oh they will never make it because they did not overcome".  But really, we don't know what they did or did not overcome.  Maybe they were molested as children and it was a great overcome for them not to molest their own children.  Maybe they were beaten as a child and they overcame and did not beat their own children.  Maybe they had both happen to them and overcame every piece of anger and bitterness in their hearts but just could not beat the needle.  We simply can not judge another person's heart and life.  Only the Lord is capable of doing that.  That is why I am a firm believer in OSAS.  If we were saved by works, how good is good enough?  No single human being ever completely overcomes sin.  Just when we think we have our sin all tidied up, the Holy Spirit will reveal a dark corner of our heart that we have forgotten all about.  Or God will put someone in our lives that absolutely hates us and tells us to learn to love them.  God is never finished with us.  We are never finished learning to overcome sin.  

Lu 18:9 ¶ And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Lu 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Lu 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Lu 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Lu 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Lu 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

----------


## RJB

> With this I have to disagree though.  I don't think we can ever judge a person's heart or life.


I agree.  This is like the above where someone said that those who disagree with OSAS do so because they trust their works over the sacrifice of Christ.

----------


## Miss Annie

> I agree.  This is like the above where someone said that those who disagree with OSAS do so because they trust their works over the sacrifice of Christ.


It is just my opinion, of course....... and I sincerely try not to push my stuff on others or be judgmental....  But I believe that the doctrine of OSAS makes for a more loving environment.  It puts all the judging to rest.  When we realize that we are ALL the same.... and in equal need of God's mercy and grace, its puts to sleep a lot of strife and bickering.  Reminds me of this verse: 

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, *lest any man should boast.*

The above passage is directly from Jesus : 
*Lu 18:9 ¶ And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:*
Lu 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Lu 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Lu 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Lu 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Lu 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. 

To be honest, that is how I judge doctrines too.  Yes, based on scripture, but also their fruits.  What type of fruits do they produce.  Just IMHO, I see the doctrine of works to stir up much strife.

----------


## Miss Annie

> I agree.  This is like the above where someone said that those who disagree with OSAS do so because they trust their works over the sacrifice of Christ.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to RJB again............ I would if I could brother!

----------


## Terry1

> With this I have to disagree though.  I don't think we can ever judge a person's heart or life.  Personally we just can't know.  I happen to think that there are a many junkie that die with a needle in their arms and go and rest in Jesus' arms.  Why?  Because we just do not know what they have already overcome.  We can tend to look at them and say "Oh they will never make it because they did not overcome".  But really, we don't know what they did or did not overcome.  Maybe they were molested as children and it was a great overcome for them not to molest their own children.  Maybe they were beaten as a child and they overcame and did not beat their own children.  Maybe they had both happen to them and overcame every piece of anger and bitterness in their hearts but just could not beat the needle.  We simply can not judge another person's heart and life.  Only the Lord is capable of doing that.  That is why I am a firm believer in OSAS.  If we were saved by works, how good is good enough?  No single human being ever completely overcomes sin.  Just when we think we have our sin all tidied up, the Holy Spirit will reveal a dark corner of our heart that we have forgotten all about.  Or God will put someone in our lives that absolutely hates us and tells us to learn to love them.  God is never finished with us.  We are never finished learning to overcome sin.  
> 
> Lu 18:9 ¶ And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
> Lu 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
> Lu 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
> Lu 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
> Lu 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
> Lu 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


I agree with you dear Annie---it's not dead works that save us.  What saves us is our work of faith, done in response and obedience to the Holy Spirit as Paul clearly tells us.

In this life, where we will always need to restrain ourselves from temptation and sin through our faith--It's not only what we believe that gives evidence of who we are in Christ, but also what we say and do.

Do you believe that your children are once corrected always corrected?  No they aren't because there are rules and boundaries they will have to respect the rest of their lives in order live righteous Godly lives.  If they don't do this---what happens to them?    Just the same--there are conditions upon our salvation because God loves us and wants us to understand correction and repentance and why it's needed until the day we die.

----------


## Nang

Justification is forgiveness, not correction.

Sanctification is the process of Godly correction.

The grace of God the Son who forgave the sins of His people on the cross, is an unconditional grace, contingent upon nothing else.

It is the error of the RCC to confuse Justification with Sanctification.  It comes in a variety of arguments, one of which is denial of Eternal Security.

----------


## RJB

> But I believe that the doctrine of *OSAS makes for a more loving environment.*  It puts all the judging to rest.  When we realize that we are ALL the same.... and in equal need of God's mercy and grace, its puts to sleep a lot of strife and bickering.


Maybe, but those who start threads (such as this one) to bicker about OSAS (at least on this forum) tend to be for OSAS rather than against...

ETA:  Not everyone who believes in OSAS fits this description of coarse, just the loudest.

I personally would rather post prayers, scripture, recognition of Holy days like Good Friday, but on this forum they somehow turn into fights.  I don't have the strong constitution that TER has.





> What type of fruits do they produce.


 Yep.

----------


## Brett85

> But I believe that the doctrine of OSAS makes for a more loving environment.


Maybe so, but I don't really see why that matters.  The only thing that matters is whether it's Biblical or not.

----------


## Brett85

> Maybe, but those who start threads (such as this one) to bicker about OSAS (at least on this forum) tend to be for OSAS rather than against...
> 
> ETA:  Not everyone who believes in OSAS fits this description of coarse, just the loudest.
> 
> I personally would rather post prayers, scripture, recognition of Holy days like Good Friday, but on this forum they somehow turn into fights.  I don't have the strong constitution that TER has.


I disagree.  I enjoy debating issues like this.  The debate in this thread has been mostly civil, at least better than usual.  (Due to a certain two members being banned for a month)

----------


## RJB

> I disagree.  I enjoy debating issues like this.  The debate in this thread has been mostly civil, at least better than usual.  (Due to a certain two members being banned for a month)


Yeah you're right.  There are times when things get hyper dramatic, and I'll see a mere disagreement and feel the same tension and think it's a full battle.  

Nevermind my last post miss Annie (and it wasn't directed at you in the first place   )

----------


## Miss Annie

> I agree with you dear Annie---it's not dead works that save us.  What saves us is our work of faith, done in response and obedience to the Holy Spirit as Paul clearly tells us.
> 
> In this life, where we will always need to restrain ourselves from temptation and sin through our faith--It's not only what we believe that gives evidence of who we are in Christ, but also what we say and do.
> 
> Do you believe that your children are once corrected always corrected?  No they aren't because there are rules and boundaries they will have to respect the rest of their lives in order live righteous Godly lives.  If they don't do this---what happens to them?    Just the same--there are conditions upon our salvation because God loves us and wants us to understand correction and repentance and why it's needed until the day we die.


I agree Terry, we will never stop being corrected by the Holy Spirit.   But usually when we come to the Lord, our lives are riddled with sin!   The process of "cleaning ourselves up" is just that, it is a process.  God goes in and works at His pace, on the things that He deems to the most important for where we are in our lives.  He does not wave a magic wand and poof we are rid of all of our sin.  I remember when I was first saved, I was married to a truck driver and I cursed just like one too!  I also had a serious anger problem.  But that was not the only sin in my life, but that was where God chose to start with me.  I also had many other issues as well..... as we all do.   If God had taken me home only after 3 months of being saved,...... would I have made it? I know that I had not broken all of the habitual sin in my life at that point.  But, my heart was with Jesus and I was doing my best to learn,... even what my habitual sins were.  How long does it take for us to recognize all the ways that pride manifests itself in our lives?  I know there was a time when I thought I had it licked, and then poof!  I learned of another way it manifested and realized I was still prideful.  
Sanctification is a lifelong process.  We are always learning and the Holy Spirit is always leading us to higher ground.  Just when you have all your sins licked, the Holy Spirit will ask you, "Are you still angry at your mother in law?". LOL.  
Justification is different than Sanctification.  We are justified through faith.  We are sanctified through obedience.

----------


## Miss Annie

> I personally would rather post prayers, scripture, recognition of Holy days like Good Friday, but on this forum they somehow turn into fights.  I don't have the strong constitution that TER has.
> 
> 
> .


Oh I couldn't agree more!!  I have been trying to post some interesting, uplifting, and "non-tense" threads...  they are not so popular. LOL.   I personally am really craving that type of interaction right now.  I have been homebound sick for almost 8 months and my daughter has been homebound sick for going on two and a half months.  I am craving positive, uplifting, and encouraging interaction like never before!

----------


## Miss Annie

> Maybe so, but I don't really see why that matters.  The only thing that matters is whether it's Biblical or not.


Because loving each other is the highest Biblical calling....... so I see it as very biblical.  I am not saying that works are not important.  Actually  i find it VERY interesting the way that God has created us for obedience and good works.  The more we focus on loving others and good works to bless others, the easier time we have walking away from sin and being obedient!!  Is not God glorious!

----------


## Brett85

> Because loving each other is the highest Biblical calling....... so I see it as very biblical.  I am not saying that works are not important.  Actually  i find it VERY interesting the way that God has created us for obedience and good works.  The more we focus on loving others and good works to bless others, the easier time we have walking away from sin and being obedient!!  Is not God glorious!


Sure, but your suggestion was that somehow OSAS makes it easier to love each other.  I'm not exactly sure how.  I've come to the conclusion that the Bible teaches that it's possible for Christians to lose their salvation, but that doesn't mean that I judge any particular individual who claims to a Christian but has a particular sin in their life.  I'm far from perfect as well.  I've only made the general argument that Christians don't have unconditional eternal security.  I don't ever judge any particular Christian and say that they're unsaved.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> actually practicing eating God's real flesh is cannibalism.


A ridiculous and long dismissed charge-officially since the Council of Trent, and never was accepted informally by any Church among the Roman, Antiochian, or the other Patriarchates (the patriarchates were in Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem, and Byzantium).




> The belief that the Eucharist conveyed to the believer the body and blood of Christ appears to have been widespread from an early date, and the elements were commonly referred to as the body and the blood by early Christian writers. The early Christians who use these terms also speak of it as the flesh and blood of Christ, the same flesh and blood which suffered and died on the cross.The short document known as the Teaching of the Apostles or Didache, which may be the earliest Christian document outside of the New Testament to speak of the Eucharist, says, "Let no one eat or drink of the Eucharist with you except those who have been baptized in the Name of the Lord,"[23] for it was in reference to this that the Lord said, "Do not give that which is holy to dogs." Matthew 7:6
> A letter by Saint Ignatius of Antioch to the Romans, written in AD 106 says: "I desire the bread of GOD, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ."[24]
> Writing to the Christians of Smyrna, in about AD 106, Saint Ignatius warned them to "stand aloof from such heretics", because, among other reasons, "they abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again."[25]
> In about 150, Justin Martyr wrote of the Eucharist: "Not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Savior, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh."[26]
> Justin Martyr wrote, in Dialogue with Trypho, ch 70: "Now it is evident, that in this prophecy to the bread which our Christ gave us to eat, in remembrance of His being made flesh for the sake of His believers, for whom also He suffered; and to the cup which He gave us to drink, in remembrance of His own blood, with giving of thanks."
> In about 200 AD, Tertullian wrote (Against Marcion IV. 40): "Taking bread and distributing it to his disciples he made it his own body by saying, 'This is my body,' that is a 'figure of my body.' On the other hand, there would not have been a figure unless there was a true body."
> The Apostolic Constitutions (compiled c. 380) says: "Let the bishop give the oblation, saying, The body of Christ; and let him that receiveth say, Amen. And let the deacon take the cup; and when he gives it, say, The blood of Christ, the cup of life; and let him that drinketh say, Amen."[27]
> Saint Ambrose of Milan (d. 397) wrote:
> Perhaps you will say, "I see something else, how is it that you assert that I receive the Body of Christ?" ... Let us prove that this is not what nature made, but what the blessing consecrated, and the power of blessing is greater than that of nature, because by blessing nature itself is changed. ... For that sacrament which you receive is made what it is by the word of Christ. But if the word of Elijah had such power as to bring down fire from heaven, shall not the word of Christ have power to change the nature of the elements? ... Why do you seek the order of nature in the Body of Christ, seeing that the Lord Jesus Himself was born of a Virgin, not according to nature? It is the true Flesh of Christ which was crucified and buried, this is then truly the Sacrament of His Body. The Lord Jesus Himself proclaims: "This Is My Body." Before the blessing of the heavenly words another nature is spoken of, after the consecration the Body _is signified_. He Himself speaks of His Blood. Before the consecration it has another name, after it is called Blood. And you say, Amen, that is, It is true. Let the heart within confess what the mouth utters, let the soul feel what the voice speaks."[28]Other fourth-century Christian writers say that in the Eucharist there occurs a "change",[29] "transelementation",[30] "transformation",[31] "transposing",[32]"alteration"[33] of the bread into the body of Christ.
> ...

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> *Because loving each other is the highest Biblical calling*....... so I see it as very biblical.  I am not saying that works are not important.  Actually  i find it VERY interesting the way that God has created us for obedience and good works.  The more we focus on loving others and good works to bless others, the easier time we have walking away from sin and being obedient!!  Is not God glorious!


 It is indeed half of the greatest commandment.

----------


## RJB

> A ridiculous and long dismissed charge-officially since the Council of Trent, and never was accepted informally by any Church among the Roman, Antiochian, or the other Patriarchates (the patriarchates were in Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem, and Byzantium).


Thank you, HB

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> It is just my opinion, of course....... and I sincerely try not to push my stuff on others or be judgmental....  *But I believe that the doctrine of OSAS makes for a more loving environment.*  It puts all the judging to rest.  When we realize that we are ALL the same.... and in equal need of God's mercy and grace, its puts to sleep a lot of strife and bickering.  Reminds me of this verse: 
> 
> 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
> 9 Not of works, *lest any man should boast.*
> 
> The above passage is directly from Jesus : 
> *Lu 18:9 ¶ And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:*
> Lu 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
> Lu 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
> ...


I disagree.  Not believing in the false teaching of OSAS forces us to continue to be active in participating in our relationships with God.  I, for example, must strive to "hit the mark", as it were. (to sin means "to miss the mark")  This means striving to follow the commandments and law He has given.  An active prayer life and partaking in the sacraments help us to accomplish this.  Church worship is also important.  We are strengthened in congregation in His name.

----------


## TER

> actually practicing eating God's real flesh is cannibalism.


This was the charge the Gnostics had against the early Christians, as well as the Roman authorities who persecuted the Church under the pretense of them commiting cannibalism and infanticide because of the prejudices and base knowledge of the Roman authorities.

Do you not see you are making the same error many of Christ's early followers made before they turned from Him?

*************************************
_From John 6:41-69_

The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.”  And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.  No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.  It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.  Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.  Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.  I am the bread of life.  Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.  * This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.  I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”*

* The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”*

 Then Jesus said to them, 

*“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.  Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.  For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.  He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.  As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.  This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”*

 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

_ Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”_

 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “*Does this offend you?*  What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?  It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.  But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.  And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

* From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.*  Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.  Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

**************************************************  **********
Kevin, be careful you do not grieve the Holy Spirit and allow base knowledge and doubt in your mind keep you from the truth, just as those early followers of Christ did who left Him on account of this 'hard teaching'.  Your opinion on the matter is the wrong one, which was shared by the Gnostics and Docetists and against the witness of the Church from the very beginning.  If you are against the Church, examine yourself, lest you are the one spreading lies and misinformation.  Do not be unbelieving, but be believing.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Thank you, HB


y/w ~hugs~

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> This was the charge the Gnostics had against the early Christians, as well as the Roman authorities.
> 
> Do you not see you are making the same error many of Christ's early followers made before they turned from Him?
> 
> *************************************
> _From John 6:41-69_
> 
> The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.”  And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
> 
> ...


+rep

----------


## Miss Annie

> I disagree.  Not believing in the false teaching of OSAS forces us to continue to be active in participating in our relationships with God.  I, for example, must strive to "hit the mark", as it were. (to sin means "to miss the mark")  This means striving to follow the commandments and law He has given.  An active prayer life and partaking in the sacraments help us to accomplish this.  Church worship is also important.  We are strengthened in congregation in His name.


I love you HB!    I understand the need for the "threat" to be obedient.  My children have an understanding that if they misbehave, there WILL be consequences!  And I also have that understanding with God.  That if I misbehave, there will be consequences!   God disciplines His children and he also does not inhibit us from the feeling the "natural" consequences of our sin.  We DO reap what we sow.  That threat is good enough to keep me in line!!  
I don't know if any of you have a heavenly spanking, but I have..... and it is not one that I intend to experience again!   
I know that we don't agree on this, and I don't expect that we ever will.  That does not affect my adoration and respect for yall!  
I simply feel that salvation is a free gift.  Our rewards and discipline is the result of our behavior.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> I love you HB!    I understand the need for the "threat" to be obedient.  My children have an understanding that if they misbehave, there WILL be consequences!  And I also have that understanding with God.  That if I misbehave, there will be consequences!   God disciplines His children and he also does not inhibit us from the feeling the "natural" consequences of our sin.  We DO reap what we sow.  That threat is good enough to keep me in line!!  
> *I don't know if any of you have a heavenly spanking, but I have..... and it is not one that I intend to experience again!*  
> I know that we don't agree on this, and I don't expect that we ever will.  That does not affect my adoration and respect for yall!  
> I simply feel that salvation is a free gift.  Our rewards and discipline is the result of our behavior.


I've had more than my fair share... lol    btw, I love you too, Annie! <3 <3 xoxoxo

----------


## Kevin007

> This was the charge the Gnostics had against the early Christians, as well as the Roman authorities who persecuted the Church under the pretense of them commiting cannibalism and infanticide because of the prejudices and base knowledge of the Roman authorities.
> 
> Do you not see you are making the same error many of Christ's early followers made before they turned from Him?
> 
> *************************************
> _From John 6:41-69_
> 
> The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, I have come down from heaven?
> 
> ...


I believe in Christ, not in some building.

----------


## RJB

> I believe in Christ, not in some building.


In the post you quoted, where did TER refer to a building?

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> I believe in Christ, not in some building.


You grossly misrepresent TER's views.  Not cool.  The Church is the body of believers.  A parish is simply where Christians congregate to worship in accordance with the Lord's commandments and in memory/worship of Him.  I would appreciate it if you apologize to TER.

----------


## Kevin007

> A ridiculous and long dismissed charge-officially since the Council of Trent, and never was accepted informally by any Church among the Roman, Antiochian, or the other Patriarchates (the patriarchates were in Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem, and Byzantium).


DOES it taste like blood and flesh?

----------


## Kevin007

> You grossly misrepresent TER's views. Not cool. The Church is the body of believers. A parish is simply where Christians congregate to worship in accordance with the Lord's commandments and in memory/worship of Him. I would appreciate it if you apologize to TER.


she replied to me and said I should repent....assuming I wasn't saved? SHE should be apologizing. I worship Jesus. You do not need to go to a "church" to be a Believer.

----------


## Kevin007

Jesus is not omnipresent. Only the HS is. Jesus is not in the eucharist, period. He is in Heaven, at the right hand of the Father until the Rapture; that is my point. How can Jesus be in a million churches at once in the eucharist; it doesn't make sense.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> DOES it taste like blood and flesh?


I am not Chrismated yet, so i don't know exactly what it tastes like.  But I doubt wine and bread taste like flesh.  Your point?  According to all records, the Last Supper did not taste like flesh either-even though Christ said it was His flesh and blood.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Jesus is not omnipresent. Only the HS is. *Jesus is not in the eucharist, period.* He is in Heaven, at the right hand of the Father until the Rapture; that is my point. How can Jesus be in a million churches at once in the eucharist; it doesn't make sense.


Jesus was not lying in Luke 22:14-19, I assure you.  That is not the sort of instance where Jesus spoke figuratively or lied.  If you prefer it phrased differently, you can say His body and blood are in the Eucharist.  Jesus can be in millions of parishes at once because He is of one essence with the Father and Holy Spirit-omniscient and omnipresent.

----------


## Terry1

> she replied to me and said I should repent....assuming I wasn't saved? SHE should be apologizing. I worship Jesus. You do not need to go to a "church" to be a Believer.


FYI--TER is a manly-man Kevin, just thought you ought to know.

----------


## Miss Annie

> FYI--TER is a manly-man Kevin, just thought you ought to know.


I made the same mistake for a long time..... LOL.  I think it must be his gentle nature!

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> FYI--TER is a manly-man Kevin, just thought you ought to know.


 And a doctor at that.

----------


## TER

> I believe in Christ, not in some building.


We are in agreement!  Let us give thanks for that!  Actually, I don't know of any Christian who worships a building.  If you mean 'Church', then you should understand that the Church is not a building.  The Church (the word ekklesia in the Scriptures) is the gathering of the believers. Wherever the faithful are, there the Church is.  The temple is where we go for worship, fellowship, and partake in the sacred sacraments for the healing and sanctification of our bodies and souls.




> DOES it taste like blood and flesh?


 On account of our weakness, baseness, and proclivity for scandal and such, Christ feeds us His Holy Body and Blood in Bread and Wine.  That being said, if it does taste like blood and flesh, one should tell the priest immediately.  When that has happened it has been on account of the weakness of faith of the recipient.




> she replied to me and said I should repent....assuming I wasn't saved? SHE should be apologizing. I worship Jesus. You do not need to go to a "church" to be a Believer.


I am sorry Kevin if you think I have condemned you or said that you weren't saved.  I am merely pointing out that you are in error with your opinion with regards to the Holy Eucharist and that you should be careful lest you blaspheme the Holy Spirit. 




> Jesus is not omnipresent. Only the HS is. Jesus is not in the eucharist, period. He is in Heaven, at the right hand of the Father until the Rapture; that is my point. How can Jesus be in a million churches at once in the eucharist; it doesn't make sense.


Your theology is incorrect Kevin.  Wherever One Person of the Holy Trinity is, there are the other Two.   This is basic trinitarian theology.
You say "How can Jesus be in a million churches at once in the eucharist; it doesn't make sense."  How this happens falls under the same category as how Christ fed the multitudes with a few fish and loaves of bread (which is a prefiguring of the Holy Eucharist sacrament).  It happens by the power of God.  It would be better if you just accepted the words of Christ plainly when He says "Take, eat.  This is my body",, "Drink of it all of you.  This is my blood of the new covenant."   The faithful do not ask 'how?'  Rather, they give thanks and say "Glory to You our God"!

----------


## Terry1

> And a doctor at that.


Yes, we have a doctor in the house!  Hallelujah, thank you Jesus!

----------


## TER

> Yes, we have a doctor in the house!  Hallelujah, thank you Jesus!


Actually, according to the government, I am a 'health care provider'.

----------


## RJB

This is all you need to say TER

----------


## TER

> This is all you need to say TER


LOLOL!!  I want that as my voicemail recording!!!  lolol

----------


## Terry1

> Actually, according to the government, I am a 'health care provider'.


According to the government, I'm domestic engineer these days and here's my qualifications--

*Qualifications/Requirements:*
 Must be able to operate small machinery--ie lawn tractor, weed eater, rug shampooer, vacuum, washing machine
 Must be able to respond to emergencies all hours of the day and night
 Must be able to tolerate strong odors
 Must have a high threshold for pain and a high tolerance for nagging, bothering, begging, crying, and loud noises
Must be willing and able to stand for extensive periods of time, to crawl on the floor, to enter tight and cramped spaces, and to climb chairs and tables to obtain objects in difficult to reach places
Must be willing and able to operate on 4-6 hours of sleep
Should be able to handle multiple difficult situations at once
Should be well versed on the phone and in writing
Must possess negotiation skills to handle requests from both children and adults
Can calmly handle stressful situations without yelling, throwing, hitting, storming out of rooms, or slamming doors  preferably

Might as well call me a doctor too. LOL

----------


## Terry1

Really miss Dr. House--he is so kewl!

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Actually, according to the government, I am a 'health care provider'.


LOL!!  


> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TER again.


  My +repper is broken.  /sad

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> According to the government, I'm domestic engineer these days and here's my qualifications--
> 
> *Qualifications/Requirements:*
> • Must be able to operate small machinery--ie lawn tractor, weed eater, rug shampooer, vacuum, washing machine
> • Must be able to respond to emergencies all hours of the day and night
> • Must be able to tolerate strong odors
> • Must have a high threshold for pain and a high tolerance for nagging, bothering, begging, crying, and loud noises
> •Must be willing and able to stand for extensive periods of time, to crawl on the floor, to enter tight and cramped spaces, and to climb chairs and tables to obtain objects in difficult to reach places
> •Must be willing and able to operate on 4-6 hours of sleep
> ...


LMAO

----------


## Kevin007

> Jerusalem is the whore of Babylon that will ride the beast of Revelation---not the Catholic church.
> 
> 
> 
> *Revelation 11:8 
> And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
> 
> Revelation 14:8 
> And another angel followed, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.*
> ...


rev 11 and 14 have nothing to do with eachother. The harlot is not Jerusalem; it is a false religion.

----------


## donnay



----------


## Terry1

> I believe in Christ, not in some building.


Jesus is wherever His children are--if that's in a church--then that's where God resides also--which is the entire point.  Claiming that God can't be in someone's church because they don't believe the same way you do is ridiculous.  Claiming that someone worships their church above God because they subscribe to that particular doctrine of faith in that particular church is also unfounded and ridiculous.  Christ is wherever His sheep are that worship Him no matter how they do that or in whatever fashion.  If someone wants to worship the Lord by tattooing that on their forehead or chanting five times a day only eating certain kinds of food---Gods word says that He is able to make them stand knowing their hearts are pure towards Him.

You have to stop placing God and His children in a little box that makes a statement such as "this is the only way to worship the Lord".  That is not so, nor is it biblical under the covenant of grace through faith.  We are created with perfect freedom in Christ to eat anything, hold any day holy unto Him and seek His presence through whatever we want to as long as it's done in respect and worship for God alone.  

So you can't judge others or what's in their hearts because you don't know, only God does and it's commanded and forbidden to do this to another brethren in the Lord.  I have witnessed to people whom most would shun and condemn because they didn't look and act the part of a Christian, but were reaching out seeking the Lord.  People come in strange packages and if we judge them by what we can only see--we are in error and not of the spirit of the Lord.

----------


## Nang

No one has the freedom to worship idols, and at the same time claim to worship God.

I Corinthians 10:14-22

". . Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils; ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.  Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy?  Are we stronger than He?"  vss 21-22

----------


## Terry1

> No one has the freedom to worship idols, and at the same time claim to worship God.
> 
> I Corinthians 10:14-22


Then stop worshipping a book and get rid of that ridiculous avatar.  I prefer that four eyed monster you used to have as your avatar.

----------


## RJB

Here we go, again.

----------


## Terry1

> Here we go, again.

----------


## Kevin007

why don't the anti-osas people list some of the scriptures they think disprove osas....

----------


## eduardo89

> why don't the anti-osas people list some of the scriptures they think disprove osas....


Why don't the pro-OSAS people explain why the teaching is absent from the first 1500 years of Christianity?

----------


## Kevin007

> Why don't the pro-OSAS people explain why the teaching is absent from the first 1500 years of Christianity?



you mean not in the Bible? or not in the opinion of your church?

----------


## Kevin007

> Why don't the pro-OSAS people explain why the teaching is absent from the first 1500 years of Christianity?


btw- i'm sure you can list three verses disproving osas? go for it....

----------


## eduardo89

> btw- i'm sure you can list three verses disproving osas? go for it....


Already answered that in this thread.

But why don't you answer my question. Why was OSAS not taught in the first 1500 years of Christianity?

----------


## Kevin007

> Already answered that in this thread.
> 
> But why don't you answer my question. Why was OSAS not taught in the first 1500 years of Christianity?


taught by whom?

----------


## Kevin007

> Already answered that in this thread.
> 
> But why don't you answer my question. Why was OSAS not taught in the first 1500 years of Christianity?


it was, but I'm more concerned about what was taught in the Bible by Jesus.

----------


## eduardo89

> taught by whom?


Anyone not universally condemned as a heretic.

----------


## donnay

> it was, but I'm more concerned about what was taught in the Bible by Jesus.


Jesus didn't teach slogans, that's for sure.  "Once saved, always saved"  Jesus shed his blood for you, the least you can do is humble yourself and give thanks and be in his word daily.  OSAS is just another deceptive tactic from Satan.   Satan already has the unbelievers, so the best way to get the believers is through deception.  The Bible speaks of Satan's deception:

 2 Corinthians 2:11	
    Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices. 

 2 Corinthians 11:14	
    And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light

 1 Corinthians 7:5	
    Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency. 

 Matthew 24:5	
    For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

 Mark 13:6	
    For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 

1 John 1:8	|
    If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 Matthew 24:4	
    And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 

 Matthew 24:11	
    And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 

 2 Thessalonians 2:3	
    Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 

 2 Corinthians 2:11	
*Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices*.

----------


## Terry1

> you mean not in the Bible? or not in the opinion of your church?


The only protestant churches I know of that teach Calvin's perseverance of the saints and OSAS are the Baptists and Presbyterians mainly.  None of the Methodist, Lutheran, SDA's or any of the Penecostal's teach OSAS.  Of course we know the Catholics nor the Eastern Orthodox believe in OSAS either.  It's mainly confined to the Presbyterians and the Baptist churches.  

So whether you consider yourself a Calvinist or not--this is part of his unbiblical doctrine that he wrote.  The majority of Christianity does not believe or teach this doctrine.  So when you attempt to single out the Catholics on this issue, you're also forgetting all of the other protestant and orthodox Christian church's that don't believe in the OSAS as well.   

Surly--you're not going to sit there accuse the majority of Christianity as being wrong and you right based upon Calvin's and Augustine's interpretation of it.  There's really not much difference between the Calvinists and the Gnostics who believe for the most part the same as you do.  It's all part of Calvinism and the perseverance of the saint's which is totally unbiblical IMO.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> The only protestant churches I know of that teach Calvin's perseverance of the saints and OSAS are the Baptists and Presbyterians mainly.  None of the Methodist, Lutheran, SDA's or any of the Penecostal's teach OSAS.  Of course we know the Catholics nor the Eastern Orthodox believe in OSAS either.  It's mainly confined to the Presbyterians and the Baptist churches.  
> 
> So whether you consider yourself a Calvinist or not--this is part of his unbiblical doctrine that he wrote.  The majority of Christianity does not believe or teach this doctrine.  So when you attempt to single out the Catholics on this issue, you're also forgetting all of the other protestant and orthodox Christian church's that don't believe in the OSAS as well.   
> 
> Surly--you're not going to sit there accuse the majority of Christianity as being wrong and you right based upon Calvin's and Augustine's interpretation of it.  There's really not much difference between the Calvinists and the Gnostics who believe for the most part the same as you do.  It's all part of Calvinism and the perseverance of the saint's which is totally unbiblical IMO.


I'm out of +rep ammo for thee, sorry. :/

----------


## donnay

> I'm out of +rep ammo for thee, sorry. :/



Gotcha covered.

----------


## Nang

When a sinner is saved by the power and grace of God, that sinner is adopted into the royal family of God, as a son.

That adoption is permanent.  Romans 8:14-30.

----------


## Terry1

> When a sinner is saved by the power and grace of God, that sinner is adopted into the royal family of God, as a son.
> 
> That adoption is permanent.  Romans 8:14-30.


That's not biblical, that's you worshiping the gospel of John Calvin as Holy Scriptural truth.

----------


## Nang

> That's not biblical, that's you worshiping the gospel of John Calvin as Holy Scriptural truth.



John Calvin did not write Romans 8:14-30.

----------


## Terry1

> John Calvin did not write Romans 8:14-30.


No, but he wrote your interpretation of it.

----------


## eduardo89

> When a sinner is saved by the power and grace of God, that sinner is adopted into the royal family of God, as a son.


I agree, we are saved solely by grace.




> That adoption is permanent.  Romans 8:14-30.


It is permanent upon your death only if you persevere till the end.

----------


## Terry1

> I agree, we are saved solely by grace.
> 
> 
> 
> It is permanent upon your death only if you persevere till the end.


Don't confuse her ed, she might think you're agreeing with her.

----------


## Nang

> I agree, we are saved solely by grace.
> 
> 
> 
> It is permanent upon your death only if you persevere till the end.



Perserverence is the product and result of saving grace, not the means of obtaining or maintaining saving grace.

Such is the core difference between the Romanist view and the Reformed view.

How many adopted children are threatened to be returned to the orphanage by their adoptive father, if they do not behave?  That is not even a possibility.

Rather, the father promises the adopted child his love, security, assurance, continual mercies, attention, corrections, teaching, privileges, wealth, and all things necessary for that child's familial blessings in his new home life.  It is the father's will and responsibility to KEEP and PROTECT and PROVIDE for the child . . not vice versa.

Such is saving grace . .

----------


## Nang

A dear friend in the Lord, passed this encouragement along, for the enjoyment of all those who know God's blessed assurance:

http://biblestudyplanet.com/the-stor...sed-assurance/

----------


## eduardo89

> Perseverance is the product and result of saving grace, not the means of obtaining or maintaining saving grace.


Those who presevere are able to because of God's grace, but they are not saved until they persevere till their last breath. 

*But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.* 
Matthew 24:13





> How many adopted children are threatened to be returned to the orphanage by their adoptive father, if they do not behave?  That is not even a possibility.


It is not God who 'returns us to the orphanage' it is we who decide to leave Him when we fall away.

----------


## Terry1

> Perserverence is the product and result of saving grace, not the means of obtaining or maintaining saving grace.
> 
> Such is the core difference between the Romanist view and the Reformed view.
> 
> How many adopted children are threatened to be returned to the orphanage by their adoptive father, if they do not behave?  That is not even a possibility.
> 
> Rather, the father promises the adopted child his love, security, assurance, continual mercies, attention, corrections, teaching, privileges, wealth, and all things necessary for that child's familial blessings in his new home life.  It is the father's will and responsibility to KEEP and PROTECT and PROVIDE for the child . . not vice versa.
> 
> Such is saving grace . .


The "the Romanist view" as you call it is actually the view of the majority of Christianity and don't flatter yourself by thinking because you're in the minority that you're the "remnant church" either.  Most protestant and non denominational churches along with the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox oppose OSAS and predestination doctrines because they know that doctrine is unbiblical.  That we are only saved as long as we continually abide in Christ and if we don't--and for too long, we are then cut off from the Vine/Jesus--that's biblical and reconciles with ALL of scripture.

----------


## eduardo89

> The "the Romanist view" as you call it is actually the view of the majority of Christianity and don't flatter yourself by thinking because you're in the minority that you're the "remnant church" either.  Most protestant and non denominational churches along with the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox oppose OSAS and predestination doctrines because they know that doctrine is unbiblical.  That we are only saved as long as we continually abide in Christ and if we don't--and for too long, we are then cut off from the Vine/Jesus--that's biblical and reconciles with ALL of scripture.


I agree with you, _except_ the part where you say predestination is unbiblical. It most certainly is, just not the Calvinist view of predestination, specifically double predestination.

----------


## Nang

> Those who presevere are able to because of God's grace, but they are not saved until they persevere till their last breath. 
> 
> *But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.* 
> Matthew 24:13


Perseverance, endurance, and overcoming all things is evidence of salvation.

Philippians 2:13

Salvation is not just future, but it is past tense (on the cross), and present tense (a sanctified/spiritual life) also.  







> It is not God who 'returns us to the orphanage' it is we who decide to leave Him when we fall away.


Then you deny it is the *Father's* will to keep and protect His own He foreknew, unto glory, as promised in *Romans 8:28-30.*

And you also deny the promise of the *Son,* Jesus Christ, that He will not lose any the Father gives Him.  *John 6:39-47; 10:27-29; 17:11-12.*

And you deny the teaching that it is God the *Holy Spirit* who guarantees everlasting life to all who are given faith to believe in the Son. * Ephesians 1:13-14; II Corinthians 1:21-22, 5:5
*
That amounts to a *denial of Triune God,* altogether!

----------


## eduardo89

> Perseverance, endurance, and overcoming all things is evidence of salvation.
> 
> Philippians 2:13
> Salvation is not just future, but it is past tense (on the cross), and present tense (a sanctified/spiritual life) also.


I agree, salvation is not a one time event. It is a past event (we are born again and initially justified at baptism), a present event (or sanctification), a future event (our final judgment). 




> That amounts to a *denial of Triune God,* altogether!

----------


## Terry1

> I agree with you, _except_ the part where you say predestination is unbiblical. It most certainly is, just not the Calvinist view of predestination, specifically double predestination.


What I meant was Calvin's doctrine pertaining to predestination.  Predestination is mentioned only four times in the entire bible, and it always refers to a future event as in after this life when we're wholly perfected in body and spirit.

----------


## Nang

> What I meant was Calvin's doctrine pertaining to predestination.  Predestination is mentioned only four times in the entire bible, and* it always refers to a future event* as in after this life when we're wholly perfected in body and spirit.



Cite the four times, Terry, so we can all see if you are correct or not.

----------


## Terry1

> Cite the four times, Terry, so we can all see if you are correct or not.



1.Romans 8:29 
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

We haven't been "perfected" yet--not until after this life.

2.Romans 8:30 
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

We have not been "glorified" yet--not until after this life when we have been perfected.

3.Ephesians 1:5 
having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

"predestined us to adoption"--we haven't been adopted yet--not until after this life when we have been perfected.

4.Ephesians 1:11 
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

We haven't obtained our inheritance yet--not until after this life--when we've been perfected.

Jesus was not "perfected" until after this life at his ressurection.

Luke 13:32 
And He said to them, “Go, tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.


Philippians 3:12 
[ Pressing Toward the Goal ] Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

The only way we can be perfected in this life is through the blood of Christ, by continually abiding in Him.  Not until after this life are we wholly perfected "GLORIFIED" in body and spirit forever are we eternally secure.  For if we abandon Christ in this life--we can still be cut off from the true Vine, but after this life when we are wholly perfected--only then are we eternally secure, adopted, claimed our inheritance and glorified forever.

No where in the word of God are we guaranteed our crown of glory and or glorified until after this life.  The Apostle Paul tells us here the very same thing when at the point of death he said this:

2 Timothy 4: Paul’s Valedictory

6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand.  7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the coarse, I have kept the faith.  8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.


John 7: 37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, *Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
*

Not even Jesus was glorified YET until after He died from this life and was resurrected.  No one is glorified in this life while in a state of human flesh and blood.

Jesus wasn't perfected until after his resurrection nor glorified while in a state of flesh and blood.  No one can be perfected or glorified while in this life--these bodies.  No flesh and blood shall inherit the kingdom of heaven.  So then there is no "INHERITANCE" or ADOPTION UNTIL AFTER WE ARE PERFECTED AND GLORIFIED.

We are only secure, elect, or saved in this life as long as we abide in Christ and if we don't and fall away for too long--God knowing our hearts that we will not return to Him--then cuts the branch off and away from the true Vine and burns them.  John 15:5--Heb. 6:4


Luke 13:32 
And he said unto them, *Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.*

----------


## Nang

The four uses of the word "predestined" are all presented in the past tense, which when defined, takes us back to God's eternal decrees made before creation, and thus to first causes.  So when we read about what God has predestined, we are getting a holy glimpse into God's eternal PURPOSE. 





> 1.Romans 8:29 
> For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
> 
> We haven't been "perfected" yet--not until after this life.


Conformance to the image of Christ is an ongoing process of sanctification in the lifetime of the believer.  Thus, conformance is a present tense description of the salvation that has been predestined for Christ's church.

Perfection is another subject and does not apply to Conformance.




> 2.Romans 8:30 
> Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
> 
> We have not been "glorified" yet--not until after this life when we have been perfected.




Every Christian has been "called" to faith in Jesus Christ, so this predestinated purpose has happened and is past tense.
Every Christian has been "justified" by the cross work of Jesus Christ, which is past tense.  And every Christian becomes consciously aware and realized their justification at the time of regeneration and being gifted with faith to believe the gospel, so this part of predestinated purpose is also past tense.

Every Christian receives the promise of "glorification" and this is part of predestinated purpose is future tense.



> 3.Ephesians 1:5 
> having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
> 
> "predestined us to adoption"--we haven't been adopted yet--not until after this life when we have been perfected.


Adoption, according to the predestinated purpose of God, occurs when the Christian is regenerated and comes to faith in Jesus Christ, so this is also past tense in every believer's life.  John 1:12-13; Romans 8:14-16  These scriptures are not future tense, but present tense:

"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit THAT WE ARE children of God."  Romans 8:16




> 4.Ephesians 1:11 
> In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
> 
> We haven't obtained our inheritance yet--not until after this life--when we've been perfected.


Obtained is in the past tense.  Our full inheritance and promises of glory are future tense.

However, in the present tense, Christians are promised that they have received an "earnest" ("down-payment") of their inheritance of everlasting life and glory, by the anointing, sealing, and indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  Ephesians 1:13-14, II Corinthians 1:21, 5:5; I John 2:20




> Jesus was not "perfected" until after this life at his ressurection.
> 
> Luke 13:32 
> And He said to them, “Go, tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
> 
> 
> Philippians 3:12 
> [ Pressing Toward the Goal ] Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
> 
> ...


*

*Now you have changed to a totally different subject.  You have moved from defining God's predestined purposes, to the "perfection" of Jesus Christ.  




> Not even Jesus was glorified YET until after He died from this life and was resurrected. No one is glorified in this life while in a state of human flesh and blood.
> 
> Jesus wasn't perfected until after his resurrection nor glorified while in a state of flesh and blood. No one can be perfected or glorified while in this life--these bodies.  No flesh and blood shall inherit the kingdom of heaven. So then there is no "INHERITANCE" or ADOPTION UNTIL AFTER WE ARE PERFECTED AND GLORIFIED.
> 
> We are only secure, elect, or saved in this life as long as we abide in Christ and if we don't and fall away for too long--God knowing our hearts that we will not return to Him--then cuts the branch off and away from the true Vine and burns them. John 15:5--Heb. 6:4


Jesus Christ was perfect in His incarnation, even prior to His resurrection back to glory.

I fear you do not properly understand or define the word "perfect/perfected"

As the word "perfected" is used describing Jesus Christ, the Greek word _"teleioo_" is used, which defines "accomplishment, completion, and/or finished.  (Luke 13:32)

As the word "perfected" is used describing believers (saints) the a different Greek word, _"katartismos"_ is used, which defines being fully furnished and/or fully equipped.  Ephesians 4:12; II Corinthians 13:9 which harmonize with the divine means as revealed in II Timothy 3:16

----------


## RJB

> Those who presevere are able to because of God's grace, but they are not saved until they persevere till their last breath. 
> 
> *But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.* 
> Matthew 24:13
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is not God who 'returns us to the orphanage' it is we who decide to leave Him when we fall away.


That's what I don't get.  There are many passages that say to persevere.  To persevere is an action that takes will.

In these verses, it *doesn't* say, "*If you believe in faith alone, don't worry about persevering, God will do it for you."*  Instead, these are warnings.

----------


## Nang

> That's what I don't get.  There are many passages that say to persevere.  To persevere is an action that takes will.
> 
> In these verses, it *doesn't* say, "*If you believe in faith alone, don't worry about persevering, God will do it for you."*  Instead, these are warnings.


Please note:  The verse does not say "to" persevere, but "shall" persevere.

This is not a command "to" persevere, or an option whether or not "to" persevere . . . but a statement of fact that those who are saved, "shall" persevere.

Reformers read this as a promise from God, that all saved souls ~will~ without fail, endure all things and overcome all things, because they are saved and indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

He has guaranteed this fact.  Ephesians 1:13-14, II Corinthians 1:21, 5:5, I John 2:20 and we can rest in His promises.

----------


## eduardo89

Just to make sure the OP is properly attributed. It is from
http://www.letusreason.org/Doct8.htm

----------

