# Lifestyles & Discussion > Peace Through Religion >  No man can snatch them out of my hand

## jmdrake

Hello.  I see this verse used a lot by people in the "once saved always saved" camp or the "saved before you were even born" camp.  Catholics, by contrast, believe you have to remain in communion with the church, where you have access to the sacraments, in order to be saved.  (See http://www.catholic.com/quickquestio...person-to-hell).  But there is a third belief.  The belief that while no one *else* can take you out of God's hand, you can freely choose to leave if that's what you really *really* want to do.  Believing in sacramental salvation means that some man can indeed come between you and God.  I reject that view as unbiblical.  There is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.  (1 Timothy 2:5).  

So how does this work in practice?  I don't think if I'm driving down the street in full communion with my God and I see a sexy jogger in a bikini and "lust with her in my heart" then immediately have an accident due to my being distracted and die before I can say "Lord forgive" me (let alone die before someone can give me last rites) that I'm going to hell.  Or lets make it more interesting.  My death is such that, for whatever reason, no priest or fellow Christian knows I'm dead.  (I'm hiking in the Amazon, see some sexy native taking a bath in a waterfall, and get eaten by a leopard.)  Same thing.  I don't think God's that eager to throw me away nor that He will leave my salvation to chance that some missionary may find my bones and pray for me.

But on the flip side there are those who at one time had faith in God, turned their back on God, and never came back.  Charles Darwin was very much a Christian when he set out on his journey that ultimately led him to challenge creationism.  Eventually he became an agnostic.  All credible accounts are that he died that way.  Some would say "Well he never had faith to begin with".  Well...he certainly believed he had faith.  So if someone might think they have faith, but they never really had it in the first place, then what kind of "assurance" is that?

Anyway, that's my belief.  Nothing that anyone else can do can separate me from God.  Being denied sacraments does not cut me off from God, nor does it necessarily show that God has already cut me off.  God isn't going to cast me away like damaged goods for some temporary mistake.  But I still have the freedom to say "Enough of this God.  You go your way, I'll go mine."

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## Terry1

> Hello.  I see this verse used a lot by people in the "once saved always saved" camp or the "saved before you were even born" camp.  Catholics, by contrast, believe you have to remain in communion with the church, where you have access to the sacraments, in order to be saved.  (See http://www.catholic.com/quickquestio...person-to-hell).  But there is a third belief.  The belief that while no one *else* can take you out of God's hand, you can freely choose to leave if that's what you really *really* want to do.  Believing in sacramental salvation means that some man can indeed come between you and God.  I reject that view as unbiblical.  There is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.  (1 Timothy 2:5).  
> 
> So how does this work in practice?  I don't think if I'm driving down the street in full communion with my God and I see a sexy jogger in a bikini and "lust with her in my heart" then immediately have an accident due to my being distracted and die before I can say "Lord forgive" me (let alone die before someone can give me last rites) that I'm going to hell.  Or lets make it more interesting.  My death is such that, for whatever reason, no priest or fellow Christian knows I'm dead.  (I'm hiking in the Amazon, see some sexy native taking a bath in a waterfall, and get eaten by a leopard.)  Same thing.  I don't think God's that eager to throw me away nor that He will leave my salvation to chance that some missionary may find my bones and pray for me.
> 
> But on the flip side there are those who at one time had faith in God, turned their back on God, and never came back.  Charles Darwin was very much a Christian when he set out on his journey that ultimately led him to challenge creationism.  Eventually he became an agnostic.  All credible accounts are that he died that way.  Some would say "Well he never had faith to begin with".  Well...he certainly believed he had faith.  So if someone might think they have faith, but they never really had it in the first place, then what kind of "assurance" is that?
> 
> Anyway, that's my belief.  Nothing that anyone else can do can separate me from God.  Being denied sacraments does not cut me off from God, nor does it necessarily show that God has already cut me off.  God isn't going to cast me away like damaged goods for some temporary mistake.  But I still have the freedom to say "Enough of this God.  You go your way, I'll go mine."


Great post!  

I believe that the most important thing for a believer to remember is that God didn't ask us to love our neighbors and do good to them--He commanded it.  

As believers in Christ, we all won't attend the same churches or believe exactly the same way to the letter, but what I believe is one of the most important things to understand with regard to our salvation is that it's possible to walk away from God and be cut off for doing it after God sees that one will not return to Him.  This is paramount in understanding why we are warned throughout the NT to continually walk in the Spirit of the Lord and to put on our spiritual armor every day to withstand the attacks of the principalities of darkness that seek to destroy mankind through their own carnal flesh and temptations that will lead them away from God.

I can't stress enough how important it is that people realize how dangerous and corrupt the belief is that we can never lose our salvation.  This type of belief also encourages corrupt lifestyles and violence thinking that there's nothing anyone can possibly do to lose that state of elect and salvation--when it will most certainly cause them to lose faith to the point it dies and then fall from grace.  This happens only to those whom God knows their hearts and is what Hebrews 6:4 teaches us that when a believer reaches the point of no return to repentance--God cuts them off and then it's impossible to "renew them to repentance" as the word tells us.  "Renew" being the keyword here that indicates that yes--at one point they were indeed saved and in a state of elect and then lost it.  John 15:5 tells us basically the very same thing, that they were part of the True Vine as a branch that bore no fruit and were then "cut off and burned".  There is no coming back or returning from that and yes--they were once saved and part of the Vine as a branch of that same vine, but did not bear fruits of the Spirit.  Our fruit is our good works that we do in response to what it is that we have come to believe in Jesus Christ.  Without these works that follow faith--James then tells us that our faith without works to back it up is dead being alone and by itself.  

So faith can not possibly justify us without the evidence of our works to give "light" unto this dark world--our testimony and evidence that yes--we follow Christ and do His will as the Spirit leads us and guides us.

So we can be snatched out of the Fathers hands in this life if we choose to abandon Christ, but never can we be snatched from the Father once we have died the first death--been resurrected and glorified unto eternal life in the next life.

This is why we're warned all through the NT and told to be ever watchful and to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.  What has anyone to fear or tremble about if they believe they can never lose their salvation?

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## Christian Liberty

@Jmdrake- Just for clarification: do you believe that a continual pattern of sin can be enough to separate one from God?  Or do you think that it would have to be actual apostasy?  also, do you believe that someone who loses his salvation can ever get it back again?

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## Kevin007

If in order to be saved, you believe  you have to live a faithful life and not sin to keep your salvation then  you are trusting in your good work of faithful living to keep you  saved.  A Believer's faithfulness is not keeping them  saved as that is the work of God. 1  Peter 1:3-5- says a believer is kept by  the power of God Himself:




_"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus  Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again  unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To  an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away,  reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time_."


Colossians 2-  


_"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us,  which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his  cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of  them openly, triumphing over them in it."_  (Colossians 2:13-15) 
 	           God says when a person is saved,_ "And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."_  (Hebrews 10:17)

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## Crashland

> But on the flip side there are those who at one time had faith in God, turned their back on God, and never came back.  Charles Darwin was very much a Christian when he set out on his journey that ultimately led him to challenge creationism.  Eventually he became an agnostic.  All credible accounts are that he died that way.  Some would say "Well he never had faith to begin with".  *Well...he certainly believed he had faith.  So if someone might think they have faith, but they never really had it in the first place, then what kind of "assurance" is that?*


Exactly. Under the assumption of "once saved, always saved", then if you honestly believe that you have faith, there is no way to tell the difference between whether that is true faith, or whether it might turn out later that you must have been somehow deceiving yourself and you never had faith to begin with. Assurance of salvation is incompatible with the fact that people truly do honestly change their minds sometimes. There is no way to know in advance that you are going to change your mind about something before it actually happens.

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## lilymc

People who "change their mind" and leave God were people who were never regenerated and born from above in the first place.   

The idea that one can go from "saved" to "unsaved" then back to "saved again" then finally back to "unsaved"  is absurd and unbiblical.

In fact, to reject eternal security is borderline blasphemous and it is rooted in pride. Because we make about US, instead of about what God did for us.   We can never earn our way to salvation, therefore we don't have to constantly strive and do good deeds in order to be saved.  Once we're truly saved, we are saved.

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## Crashland

> People who "change their mind" and leave God were people who were never regenerated and born from above in the first place.   
> 
> The idea that one can go from "saved" to "unsaved" then back to "saved again" then finally back to "unsaved"  is absurd and unbiblical.
> 
> In fact, to reject eternal security is borderline blasphemous and it is rooted in pride. Because we make about US, instead of about what God did for us.   We can never earn our way to salvation, therefore we don't have to constantly strive and do good deeds in order to be saved.  Once we're truly saved, we are saved.


Even if you are right about that, you can't hold that you can be assured of your salvation. That was the point. If it's "once saved always saved", yet there are constantly people who were once *convinced*, like you are, that they were saved (or that God saved them, however you want to word it), but they later turned away, then you have no way of knowing if you are one of those people right now.

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## Brett85

> Even if you are right about that, you can't hold that you can be assured of your salvation. That was the point. If it's "once saved always saved", yet there are constantly people who were once *convinced*, like you are, that they were saved (or that God saved them, however you want to word it), but they later turned away, then you have no way of knowing if you are one of those people right now.


Exactly.  Regardless of whether someone actually loses their salvation or were simply never saved to begin with, there are going to be people who had the false assurance that they were saved who won't make it to heaven.

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## jmdrake

> @Jmdrake- Just for clarification: do you believe that a continual pattern of sin can be enough to separate one from God?  Or do you think that it would have to be actual apostasy?  also, do you believe that someone who loses his salvation can ever get it back again?


My personal view on the first question?  I believe that a continual pattern of sin is a sign of a disconnect to the "vine" as opposed to the cause.  That said, if someone felt so burdened by guilt that they didn't want to approach God or decided to start rationalizing sin that could cause them to drift.  But the answer always is the relationship with God as opposed to worrying about "fixing" your own sin problem.  You just can't do that.

As for someone losing salvation and getting it back, I will ask the question back to you.  When Charles Darwin was openly agnostic do you think he was lost?  If he had actually returned to a belief in God wouldn't he be saved?  The prodigal son started off safe in his father's house.  He left.  He turned his back completely on his father.  He came to his senses and came back home.

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## jmdrake

> If in order to be saved, you believe  you have to live a faithful life and not sin to keep your salvation then  you are trusting in your good work of faithful living to keep you  saved.


Kevin, who are you directing your argument at?  Because ^that is not at all what I said.  It's like you didn't even read what I wrote, made up something to argue against, and went to work.  Once again, what I actually wrote.

_So how does this work in practice? I don't think if I'm driving down the street in full communion with my God and I see a sexy jogger in a bikini and "lust with her in my heart" then immediately have an accident due to my being distracted and die before I can say "Lord forgive" me (let alone die before someone can give me last rites) that I'm going to hell. Or lets make it more interesting. My death is such that, for whatever reason, no priest or fellow Christian knows I'm dead. (I'm hiking in the Amazon, see some sexy native taking a bath in a waterfall, and get eaten by a leopard.) Same thing. I don't think God's that eager to throw me away nor that He will leave my salvation to chance that some missionary may find my bones and pray for me.

But on the flip side there are those who at one time had faith in God, turned their back on God, and never came back. Charles Darwin was very much a Christian when he set out on his journey that ultimately led him to challenge creationism. Eventually he became an agnostic. All credible accounts are that he died that way. Some would say "Well he never had faith to begin with". Well...he certainly believed he had faith. So if someone might think they have faith, but they never really had it in the first place, then what kind of "assurance" is that?
_

So no.  I don't believe that you have to "keep yourself from sinning" in order to "keep your salvation".  You can screw up and still be saved.  But do you turn your back completely on God like Charles Darwin eventually did?  It's like I tell my kids.  It's not the mistake that gets you.  It's the mistake after the mistake.  Saul initially started off so humble that even after God chose him to be king the people had to go find him.  But eventually he got arrogant.  Then when Samuel corrected him by saying he would lose his kingdom, he was defiant and tried to undo the prophecy by killing David.  David, on the other hand, committed what most would consider a much worse sin than Saul, but David had a teachable spirit and was willing to repent and accept the consequences for his actions when God brought them to his attention.

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## Christian Liberty

> My personal view on the first question?  I believe that a continual pattern of sin is a sign of a disconnect to the "vine" as opposed to the cause.  That said, if someone felt so burdened by guilt that they didn't want to approach God or decided to start rationalizing sin that could cause them to drift.  But the answer always is the relationship with God as opposed to worrying about "fixing" your own sin problem.  You just can't do that.
> 
> As for someone losing salvation and getting it back, I will ask the question back to you.  When Charles Darwin was openly agnostic do you think he was lost?  If he had actually returned to a belief in God wouldn't he be saved?  The prodigal son started off safe in his father's house.  He left.  He turned his back completely on his father.  He came to his senses and came back home.


Well, my stance would be that Darwin was lost when he was agnostic, and that he always had been lost.  Had he come to a truly saving faith, he would have then been saved for the first time.  But I know you disagree.

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## jmdrake

> People who "change their mind" and leave God were people who were never regenerated and born from above in the first place.


As I predicted.  The "they were bitten by the rattlesnake because they didn't really have faith" argument.




> The idea that one can go from "saved" to "unsaved" then back to "saved again" then finally back to "unsaved"  is absurd and unbiblical.


It's neither absurd nor unbiblical.  The "lost sheep" in Jesus parable started out in the fold.  Jesus clearly said the sheep was "lost".  The shepherd "found" or "saved" the sheep.  Adam and Even started out in paradise.  They sinned.  They needed a savior.   You assume, without evidence, that anyone who ends up lost never had saving faith.  Of course here's the question.  What does it mean to be "regenerate" and how do you know that you are?  Do yo have a "faith" that is beyond "faith"?  Calvinists never bother trying to define why it is that they think *they* are saved.  You believe in Jesus?  Great.  You believe TULIP?  Wonderful.  There are people with the exact same beliefs that end up lost.




> In fact, to reject eternal security is borderline blasphemous and it is rooted in pride. Because we make about US, instead of about what God did for us.   We can never earn our way to salvation, therefore we don't have to constantly strive and do good deeds in order to be saved.  Once we're truly saved, we are saved.


Ad hominem fallacy.  "Don't dare think for yourself you blasphemer!"  There is not a person on earth who gets off of a sinking ship onto a rescue ship that thinks it was "about him" just because he got on the rescue ship rather than swimming away to the sharks.  What is "absurd" is the argument that believing you have the freewill to accept or reject salvation somehow makes salvation about "you".  It doesn't.

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## jmdrake

> Well, my stance would be that Darwin was lost when he was agnostic, and that he always had been lost.  Had he come to a truly saving faith, he would have then been saved for the first time.  But I know you disagree.


And so what might have been quantifiably different about the faith he had before he became an agnostic besides the fact that you believe if he had the "right" faith he wouldn't have become agnostic?  I know you can't get inside his head.  That's why I said "might".

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## Kevin007

> Exactly. Under the assumption of "once saved, always saved", then if you honestly believe that you have faith, there is no way to tell the difference between whether that is true faith, or whether it might turn out later that you must have been somehow deceiving yourself and you never had faith to begin with. Assurance of salvation is incompatible with the fact that people truly do honestly change their minds sometimes. There is no way to know in advance that you are going to change your mind about something before it actually happens.


incorrect. If you are a Believer you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you and you def. will know.

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## Kevin007

> Kevin, who are you directing your argument at?  Because ^that is not at all what I said.  It's like you didn't even read what I wrote, made up something to argue against, and went to work.  Once again, what I actually wrote.
> 
> _So how does this work in practice? I don't think if I'm driving down the street in full communion with my God and I see a sexy jogger in a bikini and "lust with her in my heart" then immediately have an accident due to my being distracted and die before I can say "Lord forgive" me (let alone die before someone can give me last rites) that I'm going to hell. Or lets make it more interesting. My death is such that, for whatever reason, no priest or fellow Christian knows I'm dead. (I'm hiking in the Amazon, see some sexy native taking a bath in a waterfall, and get eaten by a leopard.) Same thing. I don't think God's that eager to throw me away nor that He will leave my salvation to chance that some missionary may find my bones and pray for me.
> 
> But on the flip side there are those who at one time had faith in God, turned their back on God, and never came back. Charles Darwin was very much a Christian when he set out on his journey that ultimately led him to challenge creationism. Eventually he became an agnostic. All credible accounts are that he died that way. Some would say "Well he never had faith to begin with". Well...he certainly believed he had faith. So if someone might think they have faith, but they never really had it in the first place, then what kind of "assurance" is that?
> _
> 
> So no.  I don't believe that you have to "keep yourself from sinning" in order to "keep your salvation".  You can screw up and still be saved.  But do you turn your back completely on God like Charles Darwin eventually did?  It's like I tell my kids.  It's not the mistake that gets you.  It's the mistake after the mistake.  Saul initially started off so humble that even after God chose him to be king the people had to go find him.  But eventually he got arrogant.  Then when Samuel corrected him by saying he would lose his kingdom, he was defiant and tried to undo the prophecy by killing David.  David, on the other hand, committed what most would consider a much worse sin than Saul, but David had a teachable spirit and was willing to repent and accept the consequences for his actions when God brought them to his attention.


a Believer couldn't and wouldn't turn their back on God on purpose. Period. How long or how often can a person sin without repenting before "losing" their salvation? And why would God keep you guessing day to day with the most important question? What kind of security and joy could a Believer have if they were always wondering if their salvation could be lost? Jesus died for a Believer's sins- all of them, not just some of them.

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## Kevin007

> People who "change their mind" and leave God were people who were never regenerated and born from above in the first place.   
> 
> The idea that one can go from "saved" to "unsaved" then back to "saved again" then finally back to "unsaved"  is absurd and unbiblical.
> 
> In fact, to reject eternal security is borderline blasphemous and it is rooted in pride. Because we make about US, instead of about what God did for us.   We can never earn our way to salvation, therefore we don't have to constantly strive and do good deeds in order to be saved.  Once we're truly saved, we are saved.


exactly right. The focus here seems to be on our "performance" and not on Jesus' . How sad and terrible. Jesus died while we were STILL SINNERS. He knew every sin we would commit even after we were saved- yet still we were ALREADY FORGIVEN. Many Believers will have sins that they can never shake. We are in the FLESH. We will never be practically perfect on Earth, but when we accepted Jesus as our Lord and Savior we became POSITIONALLY PERFECT in God the Fathers eyes.

We are being sanctified daily when we walk in His ways. We should be getting smaller and Christ bigger. All of us want to please God and it makes us feel good and our Father feel good but when we sin, Jesus "has our back". When God sees a true Believer He sees Jesus.

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## Kevin007

> Kevin, who are you directing your argument at?  Because ^that is not at all what I said.  It's like you didn't even read what I wrote, made up something to argue against, and went to work.  Once again, what I actually wrote.
> 
> _So how does this work in practice? I don't think if I'm driving down the street in full communion with my God and I see a sexy jogger in a bikini and "lust with her in my heart" then immediately have an accident due to my being distracted and die before I can say "Lord forgive" me (let alone die before someone can give me last rites) that I'm going to hell. Or lets make it more interesting. My death is such that, for whatever reason, no priest or fellow Christian knows I'm dead. (I'm hiking in the Amazon, see some sexy native taking a bath in a waterfall, and get eaten by a leopard.) Same thing. I don't think God's that eager to throw me away nor that He will leave my salvation to chance that some missionary may find my bones and pray for me.
> 
> But on the flip side there are those who at one time had faith in God, turned their back on God, and never came back. Charles Darwin was very much a Christian when he set out on his journey that ultimately led him to challenge creationism. Eventually he became an agnostic. All credible accounts are that he died that way. Some would say "Well he never had faith to begin with". Well...he certainly believed he had faith. So if someone might think they have faith, but they never really had it in the first place, then what kind of "assurance" is that?
> _
> 
> So no.  I don't believe that you have to "keep yourself from sinning" in order to "keep your salvation".  You can screw up and still be saved.  But do you turn your back completely on God like Charles Darwin eventually did?  It's like I tell my kids.  It's not the mistake that gets you.  It's the mistake after the mistake.  Saul initially started off so humble that even after God chose him to be king the people had to go find him.  But eventually he got arrogant.  Then when Samuel corrected him by saying he would lose his kingdom, he was defiant and tried to undo the prophecy by killing David.  David, on the other hand, committed what most would consider a much worse sin than Saul, but David had a teachable spirit and was willing to repent and accept the consequences for his actions when God brought them to his attention.


Charles Darwin was not a Christian when he set out. He became one most say at the end of his life. Thats a pretty weak "argument" against OSAS if I ever saw one.

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## jmdrake

> a Believer couldn't and wouldn't turn their back on God on purpose.


So what exactly is a "believer" and how do you know Darwin didn't start out as one other than your circular reasoning argument?




> Period. How long or how often can a person sin without repenting before "losing" their salvation?


Well I don't intend to disobey God's command to repent just to try it out.





> And why would God keep you guessing day to day with the most important question?


There is no "guessing".  Either you're listening to God's voice or you aren't.  Either you're believing or you aren't.  I would say the guesswork is in your camp because you have no objective way of knowing whether you are really a "believer" or not.  I'm pretty sure Darwin believed he was a believer.




> What kind of security and joy could a Believer have if they were always wondering if their salvation could be lost? Jesus died for a Believer's sins- all of them, not just some of them.


More security than I would have if I believe, as you apparently do, that someone could think they are a believer but not really be a believer.

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## jmdrake

> Charles Darwin was not a Christian when he set out. He became one most say at the end of his life. Thats a pretty weak "argument" against OSAS if I ever saw one.


So basically you reverse known facts to fit your argument?  All credible sources (like his family) state that he was a Christian when he started on his voyage but eventually lost faith in God and became an agnostic.  The reports that he became a Christian on his deathbed came from a woman that his family says wasn't even around at the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...Charles_Darwin

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## Brett85

> incorrect. If you are a Believer you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you and you def. will know.


Don't you think that Charles Darwin felt that he had the Holy Spirit dwelling in him?

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## Kevin007

> So what exactly is a "believer" and how do you know Darwin didn't start out as one other than your circular reasoning argument?
> 
> 
> 
> *Well I don't intend to disobey God's command to repent just to try it out.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you just made my point. You wouldn't know, would you. God wants you to KNOW, OBVIOUSLY. Look at the whole of Scripture which supports eternal security of the believer. If I cannot do good works to get saved, how can i sin to get "unsaved". You do not understand a Believer's POSITION IN CHRIST. You are not saved one day then unsaved the next etc etc... The Believer knows they are His and vice versa. Verse after verse prove eternal security. There are about 3-5 verses those who do not believe in OSAS and they misapply them.

Those who deny OSAS are not trusting fully in Jesus for their salvation. They are trusting in themselves also. You are lowering true Christianity to other religions who are hoping to attain salvation by keeping the laws. Yoiu are hoping for the best. IMHO the people who are not saved are the ones who do not believe in Eternal Security.

You guys do not know a thing about sanctification vs salvation. Justification vs glorification.

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## Kevin007

> Don't you think that Charles Darwin felt that he had the Holy Spirit dwelling in him?


I don't care what Darwin felt.

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## Kevin007

"But      not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the      offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by      grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."      —Romans 5:15


"But to him that worketh not, but          believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for          righteousness." —Romans 4:5


and many many others like; John 6:37-40, John 10:26-30, and Rom 8:33-39 especially in light of Rom 11:2.

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## Crashland

> incorrect. If you are a Believer you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you and you def. will know.


Yeah, and I *definitely knew* that I had the Holy Spirit in me for years. I was as sure of that as the sun coming up tomorrow. And yet today I'm an atheist. As much as you might not like to think so, most ex-Christians really were convinced that they had the Holy Spirit dwelling in them during the time they were Christians.

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## Brett85

> IMHO the people who are not saved are the ones who do not believe in Eternal Security.


So now believing in eternal security is a requirement to be a Christian?  Isn't that "works Salvationism" itself since you seem to believe that you have to get every doctrinal belief correct in order to be a Christian?

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## Kevin007

> So now believing in eternal security is a requirement to be a Christian?  Isn't that "works Salvationism" itself since you seem to believe that you have to get every doctrinal belief correct in order to be a Christian?


I said IMHO.

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## Kevin007

People are trusting in their works to "stay" saved, and not fully in Jesus.

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## Crashland

> People are trusting in their works to "stay" saved, and not fully in Jesus.


Trusting fully in Jesus is just as much a "work" as anything else. I fail to see a distinction.

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## Brett85

> People are trusting in their works to "stay" saved, and not fully in Jesus.


What do you think Jesus meant when he said that every good branch bears fruit, and that we're supposed to bear fruit once we become a branch on Christ's vine?

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## Brett85

> Trusting fully in Jesus is just as much a "work" as anything else. I fail to see a distinction.


That's true.  Trusting in Jesus is an action itself.  It requires thoughts and words.

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## lilymc

> you just made my point. You wouldn't know, would you. God wants you to KNOW, OBVIOUSLY. Look at the whole of Scripture which supports eternal security of the believer. If I cannot do good works to get saved, how can i sin to get "unsaved". You do not understand a Believer's POSITION IN CHRIST. You are not saved one day then unsaved the next etc etc... The Believer knows they are His and vice versa. Verse after verse prove eternal security. There are about 3-5 verses those who do not believe in OSAS and they misapply them.
> 
> *Those who deny OSAS are not trusting fully in Jesus for their salvation.* They are trusting in themselves also. You are lowering true Christianity to other religions who are hoping to attain salvation by keeping the laws.


That is a very important point, and I think it sums up this whole debate.

If people trust in works for salvation, then it's inevitable that they will believe they they can lose their salvation, due to their works (what they do.)

As you said, there are tons of verses that show that true born again believers have eternal security.    So to deny that is to call God a liar.

To the anti-eternal security people, I ask you to please think about something...  Please use your God-given intuition, as well as logic and reason. I'm going to bold a word in a few verses...   Then I'm going to ask you a question.


"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has *eternal life*. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have *eternal life*." John 3:16

"For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have *eternal life*, and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:40

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is *eternal life* through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

 If a person is saved, they have eternal life, that is what the bible says.  So here is my question to you.  If a person can be truly saved, receiving eternal life, and then be UNsaved (lose their salvation), then was that life they received eternal, yes or no?

If a person can be "unsaved"  or "lose their salvation" then they did NOT have eternal life.  They received temporary "life."   Then they go to spiritual death,  or separation from God.

So to say that a person can be TRULY saved - and have eternal life - then later "lose" their salvation and NOT be raised up on the last day to eternal life with God goes against Jesus own words, and it is to call God a liar.

God is not a liar.   

And btw, I feel like the fact that so many churches teach works and teach against eternal security of the true believer is a sign of the times.  We must be getting closer to the last days, because there are so many people teaching all sorts of things that go against what the bible says.

----------


## Brett85

> And btw, I feel like the fact that so many churches teach works and teach against eternal security of the true believer is a sign of the times.  We must be getting closer to the last days, because there are so many people teaching all sorts of things that go against what the bible says.


IMO the eternal security doctrine is a creation of the church.  I don't know of hardly any church that teaches against eternal security, except for maybe the Catholic church.  And as JMdrake said, I don't agree with the Catholic church that you lose your salvation if you don't take sacraments.  I just came to believe that eternal security is a false doctrine by reading and studying the Bible and coming to my own conclusions.  For every verse that seems to point towards eternal security, there's 10 that point against it.  You have to go with the preponderance of the evidence.

----------


## Brett85

I'm not saying that people are just constantly in and out and just constantly losing their salvation, but there are certainly people who were Christians at one time who lost their faith and became atheists, and there are people who decide to use their salvation as a license to sin who believe they will be saved simply because they attended a Billy Graham crusade and said the prayer of salvation.  The Bible is clear that these people won't make it to heaven, as every tree on the vine of Christ has to bear fruit.

----------


## Brett85

> People are trusting in their works to "stay" saved, and not fully in Jesus.


It's not really an example of "trusting in ourselves," because even the good works that we do are a result of the Holy Spirit living within us.  Our good works come from God.

----------


## lilymc

> IMO the eternal security doctrine is a creation of the church.  I don't know of hardly any church that teaches against eternal security, except for maybe the Catholic church.  And as JMdrake said, I don't agree with the Catholic church that you lose your salvation if you don't take sacraments.  I just came to believe that eternal security is a false doctrine by reading and studying the Bible and coming to my own conclusions.  For every verse that seems to point towards eternal security, there's 10 that point against it.  You have to go with the preponderance of the evidence.


Well, the Catholic church (and apparently the EO) equates to a lot of people.    

It is definitely not a creation of the church, the whole bible is filled with verses that show once we're truly saved, we're saved.  As Kevin said, those who believe otherwise are misapplying a handful of verses.

I really think the whole thing boils down to simple misunderstanding.

----------


## Kevin007

> Trusting fully in Jesus is just as much a "work" as anything else. I fail to see a distinction.


no it is not. it is faith.

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## Southron

When I was a boy we attended a Wesleyan church for a time. There seemed to be a persistent fear among the members when it came to the security of salvation.

 think you can add Wesleyans to the list of those that reject perservance or eternal security.

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## lilymc

> When I was a boy we attended a Wesleyan church for a time. There seemed to be a persistent fear among the menbers when it came to the security of salvation.


I think that is another thing that shows it is not from God.  God doesn't want us to live in fear and worry or uncertainty.

Also, the anti-eternal security position is extremely negative and gloomy.  That is not from God.

If a person doesn't have the peace and joy that comes from salvation and being an adopted child of God,  then they should probably re-think their entire understanding of the Gospel, and  their spiritual condition.

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## jmdrake

> you just made my point.


No I haven't.  But you seem confused enough to believe I have.  Why willfully go around disobeying God?  If that's what your viewpoint leads to then it is dangerous.  As Samuel told Saul, rebellion is like the sin of witchcraft.  I love God and have no intention to willfully disobey Him just to prove some point.  That seems silly to me.




> You wouldn't know, would you. God wants you to KNOW, OBVIOUSLY.


Actually God doesn't want us to know everything.  The first sin man committed was eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.  Knowing that I'm saved is good enough.  Tempting God to see "what can I do to be lost" sounds similar to Satan tempting Jesus to throw Himself off of the temple to see if God would send the angels to hold Jesus up.  In fact it's exactly the same.




> Look at the whole of Scripture which supports eternal security of the believer.


Key words here.  To the *believer*.  And not just to the intellectual believer, but to the one that actually trusts God.  After all, the devils have an intellectual belief in God.  You and others like you ignore all of the scripture which says things like "Let him who things he stands take heed lest he fall" or "He that endures to the end the same shall be saved" or "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" or admonitions that we be careful not to "fall from grace".  You can't just look at the parts of the Bible that agree with your position.  You have to look at the parts that disagree with it as wall.  Here's a good starting point if you are actually looking to learn more on the subject as opposed to just pushing your point of view and misrepresenting my position.  http://www.bible.ca/cal-P-refutation.htm   But I'm betting you won't even click the link, let alone read the Bible verses that go against your beliefs let alone attempt to understand them.




> If I cannot do good works to get saved, how can i sin to get "unsaved".


If you are saved by accepting Jesus you can be unsaved by rejecting Him.  It's that simple.  Jesus talked about branches in the vine being taken away.  He didn't say "There are some branches that were never in the vine to begin with."  They were taken away because they didn't abide in the vine.  Jesus Himself said "Your work is to believe".  Again we know from James that the belief being described is not a mere intellectual belief.

That said, I have a simple question for you.  Why were Adam an Eve kicked out of the garden in the first place?  Why was lucifer, created perfect, kicked out of heaven never to be let back in?  




> You do not understand a Believer's POSITION IN CHRIST. You are not saved one day then unsaved the next etc etc... The Believer knows they are His and vice versa. Verse after verse prove eternal security. There are about 3-5 verses those who do not believe in OSAS and they misapply them.


You don't understand how to have an honest debate.  You keep attributing to me things I haven't said or believed.




> Those who deny OSAS are not trusting fully in Jesus for their salvation. They are trusting in themselves also. You are lowering true Christianity to other religions who are hoping to attain salvation by keeping the laws. Yoiu are hoping for the best. IMHO the people who are not saved are the ones who do not believe in Eternal Security.


Nothing could be further from the truth.  Those who deny once saved always saved are the ones *really* trusting Jesus for salvation.  Here is an analogy.  You've seen those bumper stickers that say "Jesus is my co-pilot?"  Well I've seen ones that strike out the "co" and leave Jesus as the pilot.  In other words I chose Jesus to run my life.  I don't assume that I can keep control of the wheel and arrive safely at my final destination no matter what.  I could go with the OSAS view, assume I'm saved, assume that means "I don't need to listen to God at all.  I can do whatever the hell I want to because God has no choice but to save me and I have no choice but to be saved." and use it as a license to sin.  Oh I'm sure you'll come back with some "But it's not a license to sin".  But your earlier question to me "How far can you go in sinning and still be saved" proves that your position is a license to sin.  I'm not *looking* to sin.  Sure I sin.  It's not ultimately what I want.  I believe that the very enmity that I have towards sin is itself proof of my salvation.  If I ever got comfortable with sin, then I would be worried.  Or actually I wouldn't be worried because then I would be reprobate.




> You guys do not know a thing about sanctification vs salvation. Justification vs glorification.


*sigh* Right.  And ^this is what passes for "debate" these days.  Someone jumping up and down saying over and over again "I know it all and you don't."  Okay.  You know everything.  You can make up positions that someone else didn't say and argue against them.  Only the Bible verses that support your viewpoint are valid.  Sure.  Whatever.

----------


## jmdrake

> I think that is another thing that shows it is not from God.  God doesn't want us to live in fear and worry or uncertainty.


That's nice.  But I don't live in fear and uncertainty.  God doesn't want us to make up stuff like you seem so fond of doing either.  Also God doesn't want us to tempt Him like Kevin was asking me to do or to commit the sin of presumption. 

Also, the anti-eternal security position is extremely negative and gloomy.  That is not from God.




> If a person doesn't have the peace and joy that comes from salvation and being an adopted child of God,  then they should probably re-think their entire understanding of the Gospel, and  their spiritual condition.


If you have to misrepresent someone else's position to support your own then your position is extremely weak.

----------


## jmdrake

> I don't care what Darwin felt.


Right.  Because you will attribute your own opinion to anyone else's experience.  I will again ask you the question that, so far, you have refused to answer.  What is different about the belief of Christians who quit believing other than the fact that they quit believing?  How can a Calvinist or a "OSAS" (I'm not sure if you are a Calvinist or not) know that they aren't one of the people that might later on quit believing and never come back?  Are you willing to try being an atheist for a few years, or maybe delving into Satanism just to see if you can "get back"?  Because I'm not.

----------


## Terry1

> I think that is another thing that shows it is not from God.  God doesn't want us to live in fear and worry or uncertainty.
> 
> Also, the anti-eternal security position is extremely negative and gloomy.  That is not from God.
> 
> If a person doesn't have the peace and joy that comes from salvation and being an adopted child of God,  then they should probably re-think their entire understanding of the Gospel, and  their spiritual condition.


There's no need to live in "fear or worry" if you continually walk in the Spirit of the Lord as we're instructed to---otherwise we are in trouble spiritually.  So are you arguing the fact that we don't have to continually walk in the Spirit of the Lord to remain in the state of elect?  Or are you saying that once we confess Christ, we are automatically bound for eternal glory--whether we walk in the Spirit of the Lord or not?  We do have a choice in this life and people do change their minds and walk away from Christ.  That doesn't mean that they were never saved or that they never once walked in the Spirit.  It means they have abandoned their belief in Christ by walking away and doing things opposite what we have been commanded to do in Christ.  Stay in this state of mind and heart for too long and God simply cuts them off permanently.  

Believe the *way* you wish, but the *way* one believes does indeed make a difference.

Peace in Christ

----------


## Crashland

> no it is not. it is faith.


Trust and belief are two very different things. You can willingly choose to blindly trust in something even though you don't believe in it. That is a conscious choice. Conscious choices are actions -aka "works". You are in full control of this

On the other hand, belief is not a conscious decision. Belief is an involuntary reaction , you can't choose to believe something, because if you are honest with yourself, you either believe it or you don't, and you can't control what you find to be convincing.

So which thing are we talking about here?

----------


## Christian Liberty

> I'm not saying that people are just constantly in and out and just constantly losing their salvation, but there are certainly people who were Christians at one time who lost their faith and became atheists, and there are people who decide to use their salvation as a license to sin who believe they will be saved_ simply because they attended a Billy Graham crusade_ and said the prayer of salvation.  The Bible is clear that these people won't make it to heaven, as every tree on the vine of Christ has to bear fruit.


Wouldn't that be a classic, almost too easy example of someone who was never saved to begin with?

----------


## Terry1

> Wouldn't that be a classic, almost too easy example of someone who was never saved to begin with?


No because God is patient while we stumble in and out of faith as babes will do until they mature enough to be the meat eaters of the word.  This is what the parable of the sower is all about.  Some who come and endure for a time and then fall away.  This does not mean that they were never saved in the begining--it means they simply chose not to continue following Jesus and go their own ways.

There's a distinct difference between "stumbling" and ignoring the Holy Spirit for so long that it becomes a hardening of  the heart situation--hence grieving the Holy Spirit to the point where God knows their hearts and that they will not return and they are cut off burned (John 15:5) and they can not be *RENEWED* to repentance again.  Hebrews 6:4.  They have lost faith to the point it died and grace became of no effect any longer.  People do this of their own free will and choice--God doesn't do this to them.

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## jmdrake

> Wouldn't that be a classic, almost too easy example of someone who was never saved to begin with?


I don't know.  Is it?  The question that I've been asking Calvinists *through the years* is what is the difference between someone who believes and is saved and someone who believes and isn't saved?  Take TC's example and replace Billy Graham with your favorite Calvinist preacher such as James White or Charles Spurgeon.  Someone goes, hears the wonders of TULIP, decides "Hey this is great!  I can sin all I want to and as long as I continue to believe TULIP I'm saved!"  Do you think that person was "never saved"?  If so then why?

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## Brett85

> Wouldn't that be a classic, almost too easy example of someone who was never saved to begin with?


It might be, but even if those who become atheists and fall away from the faith were never truly saved to begin with, then you still have to worry about the idea that maybe you're not truly saved.  Either way, regardless of which view is correct, it shows that we can't just become complacent in our faith and not worry about the possibility of falling away from our faith.  Paul warned Christians to examine themselves to see whether or not they were truly in the faith.

2 Corinthians 13:5

Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

----------


## lilymc

> There's no need to live in "fear or worry" if you continually walk in the Spirit of the Lord as we're instructed to---otherwise we are in trouble spiritually.  So are you arguing the fact that we don't have to continually walk in the Spirit of the Lord to remain in the state of elect?  Or are you saying that once we confess Christ, we are automatically bound for eternal glory--whether we walk in the Spirit of the Lord or not?  We do have a choice in this life and people do change their minds and walk away from Christ.  That doesn't mean that they were never saved or that they never once walked in the Spirit.  It means they have abandoned their belief in Christ by walking away and doing things opposite what we have been commanded to do in Christ.  Stay in this state of mind and heart for too long and God simply cuts them off permanently.  
> 
> Believe the *way* you wish, but the *way* one believes does indeed make a difference.
> 
> Peace in Christ


Hi Terry. No, I wasn't saying that we don't have to continually walk in the Spirit of the Lord, but I see this in a different way, and I'll explain that...   

But first I want to say, I was responding specifically to Rifleman's comment: "_There seemed to be a persistent fear among the members when it came to the security of salvation."_    jmdrake didn't seem to notice that I was replying to Rifleman, and he replied to me, with some anger, seemingly taking that personally, because he accused me of "misrepresenting someone else's position."    How can that be a misrepresentation when I was specifically replying to Rifleman's example about the "persistent fear" of the people in that church, and I clearly said, "*IF* a person doesn't have the peace and joy that comes from salvation..."

But getting back to what you said...   I just see this whole thing entirely differently.   When a person is born again/saved, their heart and mind and nature is different than it used to be.  It is new.    So the good works and the obedience and the "walking in the Spirit of the Lord"  is the inevitable fruit of their new life in Christ.      

Where we disagree (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you think that daily good works, continually walking in the Spirit of the Lord, etc is what saves us, or is necessary before we are saved.     And we have to constantly "maintain" our salvation, so we don't "lose" it.

I couldn't disagree more with that entire view of salvation.    Salvation, or to be more specific, justification is not about works.  Good works is the fruit, not the root!

But here is the main point I want to make.   Constantly striving and "trying to be a good person" and making sure we're daily doing good works so we don't "lose our salvation" to me shows a very big misunderstanding on salvation.

We can never be good enough on our own.  We need to *completely surrender* and put our faith and trust fully in Jesus.  Our old self must die (Gal 2:20, Gal 5:24, Mark 8:35, Romans 6:1-23, Matt 16:25, etc)  and we have to *be born again.* (John 3:3, 1 Peter 1:23, Romans 6:4, 2 Cor 5:17, etc).

As it says in this video,  believing that salvation is about "daily good works"  is like spraying perfume on a corpse.  It's like putting a band-aid on someone who needs a heart transplant.    Salvation (to be more accurate, justification) is a one time thing.  Once a person is truly saved, they go from death to life.  You can't go back and forth, once you are truly saved, you are saved, period.




The thing that you are talking about (daily walking with God, good works, spiritual growth, becoming more holy and more like Christ) is sanctification.  But those things are not what save us.  We are saved by grace, through faith, so that no one can boast.

As for your question about someone being saved and then living a life of sin... While it may be possible for someone to backslide temporarily, someone who is truly saved will always come back.  For example, David committed horrible sins (adultery and murder) yet he was a man after God's own heart, and he truly loved God, and he was repentant.

On the other hand,  someone who might go through the motions and profess to be a Christian, then live a life of sin, or leave God completely, is someone who almost certainly was never truly saved and regenerated in the first place.

Someone who is truly saved and born again does NOT leave God or choose a life of sin over belonging to God.  

Just like you can't go through your mother's womb and be "born" (physically) twice,  being born again (spiritually) is a one time thing. You can't be "born" and then "unborn."       

One can be born physically, and never born spiritually.  Sadly, many people fall into that category.

----------


## Crashland

> It might be, but even if those who become atheists and fall away from the faith were never truly saved to begin with, then you still have to worry about the idea that maybe you're not truly saved.  Either way, regardless of which view is correct, it shows that we can't just become complacent in our faith and not worry about the possibility of falling away from our faith.  Paul warned Christians to examine themselves to see whether or not they were truly in the faith.
> 
> 2 Corinthians 13:5
> 
> Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?


Oh man, I am offering sacrifices to the +reputation gods but nothing is happening.

----------


## jmdrake

> Hi Terry. No, I wasn't saying that we don't have to continually walk in the Spirit of the Lord, but I see this in a different way, and I'll explain that...   
> 
> But first I want to say, I was responding specifically to Rifleman's comment: "_There seemed to be a persistent fear among the members when it came to the security of salvation."_    jmdrake didn't seem to notice that I was replying to Rifleman, and he replied to me, with some anger, seemingly taking that personally, because he accused me of "misrepresenting someone else's position."    How can that be a misrepresentation when I was specifically replying to Rifleman's example about the "persistent fear" of the people in that church, and I clearly said, "*IF* a person doesn't have the peace and joy that comes from salvation..."


If I made a mistake in that regard, my apologies.  




> But getting back to what you said...   I just see this whole thing entirely differently.   When a person is born again/saved, their heart and mind and nature is different than it used to be.  It is new.    So the good works and the obedience and the "walking in the Spirit of the Lord"  is the inevitable fruit of their new life in Christ.      
> 
> Where we disagree (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you think that daily good works, continually walking in the Spirit of the Lord, etc is what saves us, or is necessary before we are saved.     And we have to constantly "maintain" our salvation, so we don't "lose" it.
> 
> I couldn't disagree more with that entire view of salvation.    Salvation, or to be more specific, justification is not about works.  Good works is the fruit, not the root!
> 
> But here is the main point I want to make.   Constantly striving and "trying to be a good person" and making sure we're daily doing good works so we don't "lose our salvation" to me shows a very big misunderstanding on salvation.
> 
> We can never be good enough on our own.  We need to *completely surrender* and put our faith and trust fully in Jesus.  Our old self must die (Gal 2:20, Gal 5:24, Mark 8:35, Romans 6:1-23, Matt 16:25, etc)  and we have to *be born again.* (John 3:3, 1 Peter 1:23, Romans 6:4, 2 Cor 5:17, etc).


I agree with the sentiment that salvation comes from complete surrender to Jesus.  I just believe that surrender is a daily thing.

_Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me._

----------


## Christian Liberty

> you just made my point. You wouldn't know, would you. God wants you to KNOW, OBVIOUSLY. Look at the whole of Scripture which supports eternal security of the believer. If I cannot do good works to get saved, how can i sin to get "unsaved". You do not understand a Believer's POSITION IN CHRIST. You are not saved one day then unsaved the next etc etc... The Believer knows they are His and vice versa. Verse after verse prove eternal security. There are about 3-5 verses those who do not believe in OSAS and they misapply them.
> 
> Those who deny _TULIP_ are not trusting fully in Jesus for their salvation. They are trusting in themselves also. You are lowering true Christianity to other religions who are hoping to attain salvation by keeping the laws. Yoiu are hoping for the best. IMHO the people who are not saved are the ones who do not believe in Eternal Security.
> 
> You guys do not know a thing about sanctification vs salvation. Justification vs glorification.


FIFY.  Any denial of ANY of the TULIP points entails at least some degree of trusting in oneself.  If you can do something to trigger your own justification, even if that thing is believing, that is a serious error.

----------


## jmdrake

> FIFY.  Any denial of ANY of the TULIP points entails at least some degree of trusting in oneself.  If you can do something to trigger your own justification, even if that thing is believing, that is a serious error.


LOL.  Total nonsense.  I'm still waiting for you to answer the question I asked you in post #46 or post #13.

----------


## Terry1

> Hi Terry. No, I wasn't saying that we don't have to continually walk in the Spirit of the Lord, but I see this in a different way, and I'll explain that...   
> 
> But first I want to say, I was responding specifically to Rifleman's comment: "_There seemed to be a persistent fear among the members when it came to the security of salvation."_    jmdrake didn't seem to notice that I was replying to Rifleman, and he replied to me, with some anger, seemingly taking that personally, because he accused me of "misrepresenting someone else's position."    How can that be a misrepresentation when I was specifically replying to Rifleman's example about the "persistent fear" of the people in that church, and I clearly said, "*IF* a person doesn't have the peace and joy that comes from salvation..."
> 
> But getting back to what you said...   I just see this whole thing entirely differently.   When a person is born again/saved, their heart and mind and nature is different than it used to be.  It is new.    So the good works and the obedience and the "walking in the Spirit of the Lord"  is the inevitable fruit of their new life in Christ.      
> 
> Where we disagree (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you think that daily good works, continually walking in the Spirit of the Lord, etc is what saves us, or is necessary before we are saved.     And we have to constantly "maintain" our salvation, so we don't "lose" it.
> 
> I couldn't disagree more with that entire view of salvation.    Salvation, or to be more specific, justification is not about works.  Good works is the fruit, not the root!
> ...


Thank you Lily for your thoughtful reply here, but what I mainly wanted to address in your post was this statement right here:




> * I couldn't disagree more with that entire view of salvation. Salvation, or to be more specific, justification is not about works. Good works is the fruit, not the root!*


I think it's important to remember that *walking in the spirit of the Lord* pretty much covers everything regarding salvation, but also--know that God's grace is what empowers us and faith is what we do as a result of being empowered by God to act upon our belief.  It's not a "root" as you say the way I see it, but in order for faith to grow and the branch bear fruit of the spirit--we must *do something* in response to our belief.  This is answering our calling by doing what we are called to do in full faith understanding what John 15:5 is telling us--without these fruits that branch/believer of the True Vine Jesus dies, it is cut off and burned.  This is how faith dies is by not responding to what the Holy Spirit is calling us to do.  Belief alone can not produce the fruits of the Spirit--only faith can do this.  Our faith is a physical response--an action--something that we do because we believe and trust the Lord.  This our light and the evidence of our belief *through faith*.  Grace/power through faith/action we are saved.

We were not meant to live as lumps stagnating in belief alone.  Our faith is suppose to grow and the only way faith can grow and we become stronger in the Lord is by the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit works through our conscience mind.  It convicts us of things we are doing wrong or need to do and tells us where, when and how to do it.  This is walking in the Spirit of the Lord while at the same time bringing forth fruit of that same spirit by our actions and trust in what the Lord is telling us to do.

I really don't understand what it is that you're not agreeing with here.  The only reason anyone would disagree with what I'm saying is if they're living a life they know isn't consistent with how God commands us to live.  Many OSAS believers live lives not consistent with how God tells us to live thinking that no matter what they do--nothing can "snatch them out of the fathers hands"--which is not biblical.  They can be snatched by this belief alone while believing all the while it can not happen to them.

Those who can not be snatched out of the Fathers hands are those who've already died the first death and are in heaven with the Father.

----------


## lilymc

> If I made a mistake in that regard, my apologies.


No worries.




> I agree with the sentiment that salvation comes from complete surrender to Jesus.  I just believe that surrender is a daily thing.
> 
> _Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me._


I agree that it should be a daily thing.  But that is part of sanctification, which shouldn't be confused with justification.   

Jesus did not die for ONLY our past sins.  If that was the case, then we would have to "get saved" 20 times a day (or else be eternally separated from God)  causing some people (as Rifleman pointed out) to be in constant fear.  That is unbiblical, illogical and completely counterintuitive.

The very word "saved" would be meaningless if salvation was something we had to do every 5 minutes.  How saved are we, if we have to "get saved" after every sin, or else go to hell?   

Getting saved (forgiven of all our sins, our debt paid in full, made positionally righteous)  is a very real, special one time event.    It is when we go from death to life, and we become born from above, a son or daughter of God.

The thing that is continual and an ongoing process is sanctification.    





> Thank you Lily for your thoughtful reply here, but what I mainly wanted to address in your post was this statement right here:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's important to remember that *walking in the spirit of the Lord* pretty much covers everything regarding salvation, but also--know that God's grace is what empowers us and faith is what we do as a result of being empowered by God to act upon our belief.  It's not a "root" as you say the way I see it, but in order for faith to grow and the branch bear fruit of the spirit--we must *do something* in response to our belief.  This is answering our calling by doing what we are called to do in full faith understanding what John 15:5 is telling us--without these fruits that branch/believer of the True Vine Jesus dies, it is cut off and burned.  This is how faith dies is by not responding to what the Holy Spirit is calling us to do.  Belief alone can not produce the fruits of the Spirit--only faith can do this.  Our faith is a physical response--an action--something that we do because we believe and trust the Lord.  This our light and the evidence of our belief *through faith*.  Grace/power through faith/action we are saved.
> 
> We were not meant to live as lumps stagnating in belief alone.  Our faith is suppose to grow and the only way faith can grow and we become stronger in the Lord is by the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit works through our conscience mind.  It convicts us of things we are doing wrong or need to do and tells us where, when and how to do it.  This is walking in the Spirit of the Lord while at the same time bringing forth fruit of that same spirit by our actions and trust in what the Lord is telling us to do.
> 
> I really don't understand what it is that you're not agreeing with here.  The only reason anyone would disagree with what I'm saying is if they're living a life they know isn't consistent with how God commands us to live.  Many OSAS believers live lives not consistent with how God tells us to live thinking that no matter what they do--nothing can "snatch them out of the fathers hands"--which is not biblical.  They can be snatched by this belief alone while believing all the while it can not happen to them.
> ...



Terry, I never, ever said or even implied that we "were meant to live as lumps, stagnating in belief alone."    I believe the exact opposite!  So how you got that from my post is crazy to me.       

What I've been saying repeatedly is that the daily walking with God, the good works, spiritual growth, etc is all the FRUIT of being saved, it is not what saves us!   

You are also fighting a straw man, because I clearly stated that if someone claims to be a Christian then "goes off to live a life of sin" just because they think they have a license to sin, that person is most likely not saved, and was never regenerated and sealed with the Holy Spirit.  

A person who is born again and saved no longer wants to live the way they used to live. They don't want to live like the world lives!  They WANT to do God's will, to learn, grow, and continually move forward spiritually.     

But it is not out of a constant fear of "losing their salvation" (which is impossible) or of going to hell, it is because we are a new creation, we have a new heart and mind, and it's out of LOVE for God.   

You brought up a few other straw man arguments, but I don't have time right now to respond to every single thing you said.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, because you have a very Catholic/EO view of salvation, it is a works-based mentality.  You remind me a lot of my Mom (who is very Catholic).  She has the same exact mentality. When I try to talk to her about salvation, her response is always something like, "I'm a good person.  It's all about being a good person."     She does not understand the need to be born again.  In fact, she has a very strong resistance to that...  which shows that she does not want to fully surrender to God.

I have many Catholic relatives like that too.  They believe it's about our good works, being a good person.   They reject the idea of being born again.  Yet they are living lives just like the world.   They do pretty much all the same things the world does, with the exception of going to church on Sunday.

I believe that is a dangerous mentality to have, because it shows a lack of belief and faith in what JESUS did for us.   And the bible is clear that we are justified by FAITH.

----------


## Kevin007

> Right.  Because you will attribute your own opinion to anyone else's experience.  I will again ask you the question that, so far, you have refused to answer.  What is different about the belief of Christians who quit believing other than the fact that they quit believing?  How can a Calvinist or a "OSAS" (I'm not sure if you are a Calvinist or not) know that they aren't one of the people that might later on quit believing and never come back?  Are you willing to try being an atheist for a few years, or maybe delving into Satanism just to see if you can "get back"?  Because I'm not.


they were never truly saved to begin with. The Holy Spirit doesn't just get up and go at the first sign of sin/trouble. You are either a Believer or you are not.

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## Kevin007

> No because God is patient while we stumble in and out of faith as babes will do until they mature enough to be the meat eaters of the word.  This is what the parable of the sower is all about.  Some who come and endure for a time and then fall away.  This does not mean that they were never saved in the begining--it means they simply chose not to continue following Jesus and go their own ways.
> 
> There's a distinct difference between "stumbling" and ignoring the Holy Spirit for so long that it becomes a hardening of  the heart situation--hence grieving the Holy Spirit to the point where God knows their hearts and that they will not return and they are cut off burned (John 15:5) and they can not be *RENEWED* to repentance again.  Hebrews 6:4.  They have lost faith to the point it died and grace became of no effect any longer.  People do this of their own free will and choice--God doesn't do this to them.


the Parable of the Sower-  The seed is the Word. ALL are Believer's in Jesus, ALL believers produce fruit; SOME MORE, SOME LESS. A  true believer produces some fruit at varying degrees throughout  his lifetime, it can be small, or it can be 100%. The yield of the fruit is  always measured by the whole life of a tree (the Believer) not just a year/season.  Many times  we are pruned back so that we can be more fruitful, so be encouraged if  you are in this state right now-- fruit is coming.


It is how we let the Word work in the soil (our  heart).  The underlying reason we produce  fruit is because we have understanding of the Word. It changes our lives (sanctification) as we yield to the Spirit in obedience. Every Believer will have more or less fruit (yield) than another Believer, but we are all saved. This is why Believer's will have different rewards than eachother. All of us live different lives and we all produces varying degrees of fruit.

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## Christian Liberty

> I don't know.  Is it?  The question that I've been asking Calvinists *through the years* is what is the difference between someone who believes and is saved and someone who believes and isn't saved?  Take TC's example and replace Billy Graham with your favorite Calvinist preacher such as James White or Charles Spurgeon.  Someone goes, hears the wonders of TULIP, decides "Hey this is great!  _I can sin all I want to and as long as I continue to believe TULIP I'm saved!_"  Do you think that person was "never saved"?  If so then why?


Because of the bold.

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## Kevin007

> I don't know.  Is it?  The question that I've been asking Calvinists *through the years* is what is the difference between someone who believes and is saved and someone who believes and isn't saved?  Take TC's example and replace Billy Graham with your favorite Calvinist preacher such as James White or Charles Spurgeon.  Someone goes, hears the wonders of TULIP, decides "Hey this is great!  I can sin all I want to and as long as I continue to believe TULIP I'm saved!"  Do you think that person was "never saved"?  If so then why?


James answers your question. If they were not saved, they keep sinning; no real change in lifestyle. If they are saved, it is not a license to sin for the NEW Believer.


*Romans 6 New International Version (NIV)* *Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ*6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness,  but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from  death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument  of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
*Slaves to Righteousness*15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19 I am using an example from everyday life  because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves  as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer  yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[b] Christ Jesus our Lord.

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## Brett85

Again, what's the difference between saying that it's possible for someone to lose their salvation and saying that it's possible for someone to think that they're a Christian but aren't actually a Christian?  If there are people who think they're Christians, but aren't Christians and were never truly saved to begin with, then how do you know that you're not one of those people?  It seems to me like even if you don't have to worry about the possibility of losing your salvation, you still have to worry about the possibility that you were never truly saved to begin with.  Because apparently there are a lot of people who thought they were saved who ended up departing from the faith.

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## Christian Liberty

> Again, what's the difference between saying that it's possible for someone to lose their salvation and saying that it's possible for someone to think that they're a Christian but aren't actually a Christian?  If there are people who think they're Christians, but aren't Christians and were never truly saved to begin with, then how do you know that you're not one of those people?  It seems to me like even if you don't have to worry about the possibility of losing your salvation, you still have to worry about the possibility that you were never truly saved to begin with.  Because apparently there are a lot of people who thought they were saved who ended up departing from the faith.


To me the real issue isn't the lack of assurance, although that could be an issue.  The real issue is did Christ really mean it when he said "It is finished".  Were those people (even if hypothetically I wasn't one of them) absolutely certain to go to heaven?  Or do they also have to contribute some work of their own to get there?

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## Kevin007

yep, the real issue is trusting fully in Christ.

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## Brett85

> To me the real issue isn't the lack of assurance, although that could be an issue.  The real issue is did Christ really mean it when he said "It is finished".  Were those people (even if hypothetically I wasn't one of them) absolutely certain to go to heaven?  Or do they also have to contribute some work of their own to get there?


Good works aren't a prerequisite for salvation, since we see with the story of the thief on the cross that it's possible for someone to go to heaven without doing any good works at all.  But yet at the same time, it's not possible for someone to be a Christian and make it to heaven if they don't have any good works at all after their initial conversion, because good works are the proof that we actually have faith.  If we claim to have faith but don't have any works to back up our claim of faith, then it's clear to God that we don't truly believe.

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## Kevin007

> Good works aren't a prerequisite for salvation, since we see with the story of the thief on the cross that it's possible for someone to go to heaven without doing any good works at all.  But yet at the same time, it's not possible for someone to be a Christian and make it to heaven if they don't have any good works at all after their initial conversion, because good works are the proof that we actually have faith.  If we claim to have faith but don't have any works to back up our claim of faith, then it's clear to God that we don't truly believe.


lots of people have no works, deathbed confessions, people who get saved then right after a deadly accident, etc...

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## Kevin007

> *Good works aren't a prerequisite for salvation*, since we see with the story of the thief on the cross that it's possible for someone to go to heaven without doing any good works at all.  But yet at the same time, it's not possible for someone to be a Christian and make it to heaven if they don't have any good works at all after their initial conversion, because good works are the proof that we actually have faith.  If we claim to have faith but don't have any works to back up our claim of faith, then it's clear to God that we don't truly believe.


good works are NEVER a prerequisite for salvation.

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## Kevin007

you guys can have faith in your works all you want. I'd rather put my faith in Jesus.

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## Christian Liberty

> yep, the real issue is trusting fully in Christ.


The problem is that for this to work you can't just take OSAS.  You need the predestination doctrine that you reject.



> Good works aren't a prerequisite for salvation, since we see with the story of the thief on the cross that it's possible for someone to go to heaven without doing any good works at all.  But yet at the same time, it's not possible for someone to be a Christian and make it to heaven if they don't have any good works at all after their initial conversion, because good works are the proof that we actually have faith.  If we claim to have faith but don't have any works to back up our claim of faith, then it's clear to God that we don't truly believe.


Good works are proof that you actually have faith.  A long term pattern of no works would prove that there is no true faith.

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## Kevin007

> ]The problem is that for this to work you can't just take OSAS.  You need the predestination doctrine that you reject.[/B]
> 
> 
> Good works are proof that you actually have faith.  A long term pattern of no works would prove that there is no true faith.
> 
> h


ow so?

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## Brett85

> Good works are proof that you actually have faith.  A long term pattern of no works would prove that there is no true faith.


I agree.

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## Brett85

> lots of people have no works, deathbed confessions, people who get saved then right after a deadly accident, etc...





> good works are NEVER a prerequisite for salvation.


That's exactly what I said.

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## Christian Liberty

> ow so?


If you believe that you used your free will to come to Christ, you are trusting in the work of faith.

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## Kevin007

> If you believe that you used your free will to come to Christ, you are trusting in the work of faith.


and?

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## Christian Liberty

> and?


So you aren't actually failing to trust in your works.  To some degree you're doing what you accuse OSAS deniers of doing.

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## Kevin007

> So you aren't actually failing to trust in your works.  To some degree you're doing what you accuse OSAS deniers of doing.


faith in Jesus is not a work. Faith and works are 2 separate things.

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## jmdrake

> James answers your question. If they were not saved, they keep sinning; no real change in lifestyle. If they are saved, it is not a license to sin for the NEW Believer.


Right.  So you have not sinned again I take it.  Congrats!  Most humans still fall into sin from time to time.  That's why we have 1 John 1:8,9 - 1 John 2:

_8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

1 John 2

2 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
_

I'm not going to claim I have not sinned since being saved because I don't want to be a liar.  Peter denied Christ after walking with Christ.  Was Peter not saved?  James was not talking about people who sin after being saved.  Rather he was talking about people who assumed their sins didn't matter.  They do.  Sin is a mistake.  Not repenting of sin when the Holy Spirit convicts you of it is the mistake after the mistake.  It's the mistake after the mistake that gets you.  Peter repented.  Judas hung himself.

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## jmdrake

> No worries.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that it should be a daily thing.  But that is part of sanctification, which shouldn't be confused with justification.   
> 
> Jesus did not die for ONLY our past sins.  If that was the case, then we would have to "get saved" 20 times a day (or else be eternally separated from God)  causing some people (as Rifleman pointed out) to be in constant fear.  That is unbiblical, illogical and completely counterintuitive.


Sure Jesus died for all of our sins.  He died for all of the sins of the entire world.  (1 John 1:8 - 1 John 2:3).  He has atoned for our sins and He advocates on our behalf.  All He asks us to do is admit our wrongs (confess) and seek to do better (repent).  




> The very word "saved" would be meaningless if salvation was something we had to do every 5 minutes.  How saved are we, if we have to "get saved" after every sin, or else go to hell?


Okay.  So now is it fair for me to say that you are misrepresenting my point of view?  Because you are.  If you even read my initial post carefully, instead of going off into pushing your own beliefs, you would know that I don't believe you are "lost every 5 minutes."  I even gave the example of someone lusting in their heart, immediately dying for whatever reason, and pointed out that that person does not, in my opinion, become "lost".  It's active rebellion against God that caused Lucifer to be kicked out of heaven and its active rebellion that causes people to be lost.  Really, we all kind of agree on this.  You, Freedom Fanatic, Kevin, everyone agrees that someone who believes in TULIP and takes that to mean "Hey, I can sin all I want to" isn't saved.  So why argue about it?  Or why try to change the argument into something I never said?  I simply believe that someone can have a regenerate heart and still choose active rebellion.  Lucifer was created perfect, yet he chose active rebellion against God.  You believe that doesn't mean I don't trust God.  Quite the opposite.  I don't trust myself.  I realize, as the Bible says, that the heart is deceitfully wicked.  So I believe the only way to guard against that deceitfully wicked heart is to continually turn it over to Jesus.  That doesn't mean I won't slip and sin.

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## jmdrake

> they were never truly saved to begin with. The Holy Spirit doesn't just get up and go at the first sign of sin/trouble. You are either a Believer or you are not.


Kevin, is contradicting yourself a requirement of being a Calvinist?  In one post you ask "How long can a person sin without repenting"?  I say "I don't intend to find out".  You say "That proves my point.  God wants you to know."  Now you come back and say someone who would do that was "never truly saved to begin with".  So....do you want to know or don't you?  Oh and then you misquote James and say "People who are saved don't sin anymore."  Ummm...okay.

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## jmdrake

> faith in Jesus is not a work. Faith and works are 2 separate things.


Not according to Jesus.

_John 6:29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”_

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## Brett85

> Kevin, is contradicting yourself a requirement of being a Calvinist?  In one post you ask "How long can a person sin without repenting"?  I say "I don't intend to find out".  You say "That proves my point.  God wants you to know."  Now you come back and say someone who would do that was "never truly saved to begin with".  So....do you want to know or don't you?  Oh and then you misquote James and say "People who are saved don't sin anymore."  Ummm...okay.


Kevin isn't actually a Calvinist.  He just believes in the once saved always saved doctrine.  That doctrine or the perseverance of the saints or whatever it's called is the one remaining point of Calvinism that seems to be believed by a majority of Christians.  Most of the people who go to my church probably believe in eternal security but don't believe the other four points of Calvinism.

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## Terry1

> The problem is that for this to work you can't just take OSAS.  You need the predestination doctrine that you reject..


That's like Kevin jumping from a frying pan into the fire.  The Predestination doctrine eliminates the need for any kind of repentance after confession of belief in Christ.  Repentance throughout the rest of our lives does not end at confession--this is where it begins.  Because as babes on the milk of the word will stumble and fall--like any real babe would until they learn how to walk rightly in the Spirit of the Lord and go from the milk to the meat of it.  We are called to repent in faith to the very end of our lives because we're still part corrupt flesh and part Spirit and able to commit sin until we are freed from these bodies of carnal flesh that will always be able to be tempted and tried.

Gods word gives an example of this here: *1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
* 
This is how we grow in faith is by stumbling, making mistakes, falling back into sin and repenting before God--over and over we do this until we become mature enough to have "overcome" (Rev. 3:5) and no longer have the same doubts and fears as babes we once did, but have grown in faith to the point where we are able to withstand the tests and what the principalities of darkness throw at us on a daily basis.  

Repentance is a life-long process that leads us to greater levels of faith as our faith is tested.  This is what Hebrews 6:4 is talking about again here.  That if they go too long without repenting from their sin where they have fallen back into  them--*it then becomes impossible then for God to "RENEW" them again unto repentance"--meaning--God knew their hearts and that they would not return so now they have become reprobates without the ability to repent any more seeing they've hardened their hearts against our Lord and ignored His HOly Spirit and will never return to Him.





> Good works are proof that you actually have faith.  A long term pattern of no works would prove that there is no true faith.


Our good works are what glorifies the Father in Heaven, but only if done while walking in the Spirit of the Lord.  Absent the Spirit of the Lord--then whatever you do is as filthy rags in the eyes of God because it lacks the essence of our Lord which is our faith in Him.  Hence what you've done is not because Gods Spirit led you, but dead works as those that were done under the curse of the Mosaic Law/OT law/Covenant.

This is what all of the books in the NT teach the difference between the OT law/Mosaic Law and the NT law/Faith in Jesus.  Because Jesus fulfilled that law where mankind on their own and by their own ceremonial and Jewish traditions could not perfectly and to the letter of that law perform a perfect and flawless sacrifice unto God--only our Lord Jesus was able to accomplish this.

Now the "works" *in faith* that we do are done by the very nature of Christ in us as our own free will and choice is to follow Jesus.  Not just once at confession of belief--but from the point of confession for every day throughout the course of our lives until we finish the "race" and have been proven to have "kept the faith".  Only at the point of death and we have been proven to have "overcome" this life and kept the faith are we then chosen by God and can not be snatched out of the fathers hands.  And this my friends is what St. Paul has told you that you are "Predestined to be".

We are given the HOPE of salvation based upon what the word of God has told us and that as long as we continually walk in the Spirit of the Lord we are within the will of God.

This does not give us a license to then presume upon God as to whomever He chooses though.  God will choose whom He will and this is why we are told to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" because God chooses whom He will based upon the life we chose to live here and now.  So we can't even presume upon God that we are chosen until we have been proven to have overcome this life (Rev. 3:5) so that our names will not be blotted from the Book of Life.  Our eternal rest is not yet in this life, but we can rest in the promises and know that if we do the will of the Father and walk in his Spirit till the very end of our lives that we most certainly have a great HOPE in the refuge that we might obtain glory with the Father in Heaven.

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## Terry1

I should add that it is the *uncertainty* of what may happen in this life to us which is why St. Paul never-ever tells us that we are eternally secure in this life.  Gods word tells us that the heart of mankind is wicked and evil above all and that we do not know our own hearts as well as God does.  That at any point during the course of this life--we can be tempted and tried to the point of falling back into sin.  Some of the greatest men of God have fallen because they reached a point where they thought this could not happen to them.

The devil is not stupid--he knows our weaknesses and uses them against us and this is why we're told to *armor-up* with the Spiritual armor of God every day least we be tempted and fall back into sin again.  This is something we must do to the very end of our lives--because this world is dark and evil and no good thing exists unless it's of the Spirit of the Lord and why we're warned to continually walk in it.

Those who foolishly believe that they are eternally secure in this life are in *great danger* if they believe for one minute out of any given day that there's nothing they can do to lose their state of elect and salvation in this life.  You are treading dangerously believing such nonsense and doctrines that teach it.  Our eternal rest is not yet in this life--only the next--after we have finished this race and course in life and have been proven to have "overcome" it.

Peace in Christ

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## jmdrake

> Kevin isn't actually a Calvinist.  He just believes in the once saved always saved doctrine.  That doctrine or the perseverance of the saints or whatever it's called is the one remaining point of Calvinism that seems to be believed by a majority of Christians.  Most of the people who go to my church probably believe in eternal security but don't believe the other four points of Calvinism.


Oops.  I see him arguing with FF on free will.  My mistake.

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## jmdrake

> good works are NEVER a prerequisite for salvation.





> you guys can have faith in your works all you want. I'd rather put my faith in Jesus.





> The problem is that for this to work you can't just take OSAS.  You need the predestination doctrine that you reject.
> 
> 
> Good works are proof that you actually have faith.  A long term pattern of no works would prove that there is no true faith.





> If you believe that you used your free will to come to Christ, you are trusting in the work of faith.





> and?


And....Kevin you fell into the trap yourself.  If having to exercise free will to choose to have faith in Jesus once does not negate trust in Jesus, then having to exercise faith on a daily basis to choose to have faith in Jesus does not negate trust in Jesus.  FF is absolutely right in the sense that either a free will choice is involved in salvation or it isn't.  You can believe OSAS all you want.  But the position that those who don't are somehow "trusting in their works" when we believe the exact same as you regarding free will being involved in salvation is just illogical.

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## jmdrake

> Again, what's the difference between saying that it's possible for someone to lose their salvation and saying that it's possible for someone to think that they're a Christian but aren't actually a Christian?  If there are people who think they're Christians, but aren't Christians and were never truly saved to begin with, then how do you know that you're not one of those people?  It seems to me like even if you don't have to worry about the possibility of losing your salvation, you still have to worry about the possibility that you were never truly saved to begin with.  Because apparently there are a lot of people who thought they were saved who ended up departing from the faith.


There isn't any.




> To me the real issue isn't the lack of assurance, although that could be an issue.  The real issue is did Christ really mean it when he said "It is finished".  Were those people (even if hypothetically I wasn't one of them) absolutely certain to go to heaven?  Or do they also have to contribute some work of their own to get there?


If your one of those people who think they are saved but really aren't, then you have false assurance.  What good is that?  And no.  The real issue is *not* did Christ really mean it when he said "It is finished".  That's your made up question.  The real question is what is meant by "it".  Those who reject TULIP believe that Christ finished the work of making provision for us at the cross.  But that doesn't mean everything was finished.  If it were, then He wouldn't have needed to rise from the grave.  When He rose from the grave He wouldn't have needed to ascend to the Father before interacting fully with His disciples.  When He left He wouldn't have needed to send the Holy Spirit.  And He wouldn't be in heaven *making intercession for us*.  So clearly not everything ended or "finished" when Jesus died on the cross.  The logical conclusion is that the need for sacrifice was finished because Jesus was the only sacrifice we needed.

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## Terry1

What Christ finished and fulfilled on the cross was what mankind could not under the Old Mosaic/Jewish law and traditions.  What Jesus did was give us a *CHOICE* where mankind had none before His death and resurrection.  That *choice* is the gift if we choose to accept it now under the law of faith.  God does not force us to follow Him and that choice remains ours until the death of this life and determines our eternal destiny in the next life.

You can rest in the gift of salvation if you continually walk in the Spirit of the Lord.  Stop abiding in Christ and ignoring the voice of the Lord through His Holy Spirit and you will eventually fall from grace because *you* chose to allow your faith to die.  Only God knows when a believer has fallen and will not return.  He is the only one who can decide who has become reprobate because only God knows our hearts and minds--He foreknows us, but He doesn't make our choices for us.

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## Kevin007

> Kevin, is contradicting yourself a requirement of being a Calvinist?  In one post you ask "How long can a person sin without repenting"?  I say "I don't intend to find out".  You say "That proves my point.  God wants you to know."  Now you come back and say someone who would do that was "never truly saved to begin with".  So....do you want to know or don't you?  Oh and then you misquote James and say "People who are saved don't sin anymore."  Ummm...okay.



i am saying people who are saved still sin. But Jesus' blood covers our sins, period.

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## Kevin007

What is a certainty is you won't find one believer in the NT who lost their salvation; not one. You either trust in Jesus or your works- it cannot be both.

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## lilymc

> Sure Jesus died for all of our sins.  He died for all of the sins of the entire world.  (1 John 1:8 - 1 John 2:3).  He has atoned for our sins and He advocates on our behalf.  All He asks us to do is admit our wrongs (confess) and seek to do better (repent).


So you agree that Jesus died not only for our past sins, but all our sins, including present and future?   If so, then that contradicts the anti-OSAS position. 




> Okay.  So now is it fair for me to say that you are misrepresenting my point of view?  Because you are.  If you even read my initial post carefully, instead of going off into pushing your own beliefs, you would know that I don't believe you are "lost every 5 minutes."  I even gave the example of someone lusting in their heart, immediately dying for whatever reason, and pointed out that that person does not, in my opinion, become "lost".  It's active rebellion against God that caused Lucifer to be kicked out of heaven and its active rebellion that causes people to be lost.  Really, we all kind of agree on this.


I know that it sounded like I was saying that's your point of view, but I was speaking in general about the anti-OSAS position... and using hyperbole to make the point.  

But when you think about it logically, that exaggeration isn't that far off from the truth of that position.  Because if salvation is something (as some here have portrayed it) that we have to constantly strive for every day, then we're not really "saved."  The word saved becomes meaningless, because it is something we have to constantly strive to maintain through our own works.  That is unbiblical, and illogical.

But I can see how some people would come to that conclusion, based on misunderstanding a handful of scriptures.     




> You, Freedom Fanatic, Kevin, everyone agrees that someone who believes in TULIP and takes that to mean "Hey, I can sin all I want to" isn't saved.  So why argue about it?  Or why try to change the argument into something I never said?  I simply believe that someone can have a regenerate heart and still choose active rebellion.  Lucifer was created perfect, yet he chose active rebellion against God.  You believe that doesn't mean I don't trust God.  Quite the opposite.  I don't trust myself.  I realize, as the Bible says, that the heart is deceitfully wicked.  So I believe the only way to guard against that deceitfully wicked heart is to continually turn it over to Jesus.  That doesn't mean I won't slip and sin.


I agree with you that someone can be born again (regenerate) and then choose to sin... BUT, someone who is truly saved will always feel remorseful and have a repentant heart...and after God has disciplined them, that person will learn from their mistakes, and of course come back to a right relationship with God.

So, I guess the only place you and I disagree  is that you believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that someone who is truly saved/born again can  later reject God and lose their salvation permanently.   That is where we disagree.     The person in that scenario was never truly born again in the first place.

And btw, I asked a question earlier in the thread for all who are anti-OSAS, and nobody has answered it yet.  So I'll ask the question again.

There are numerous scriptures that state that once we put our faith in Jesus and get saved, we receive the gift of eternal life.       

Now think about this.  If God gives us *eternal life* and we later reject God and "lose our salvation".... then was that gift of life eternal?  Or was it just temporary? 

It was either eternal or it wasn't.   If it wasn't eternal, then Jesus is a liar.

Jesus is NOT a liar and does NOT contradict Himself.   He meant what He said.   Once a person is _truly_ saved, they are truly saved, and NOTHING (no thing) will separate them from the love of God.  NOTHING.  Notice the following words in bold:


For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, *nor any other created thing*, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:38-39

Nor any other created thing includes you!

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## Brett85

> What is a certainty is you won't find one believer in the NT who lost their salvation; not one. You either trust in Jesus or your works- it cannot be both.


What about Judas?

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## Kevin007

> What about Judas?


Judas wasn't saved.

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## Kevin007

http://www.gotquestions.org/Judas-saved.html

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## Kevin007

To this day Judas being called with the other disciples is somewhat mysterious. Judas Iscariot is noted in history as the one who betrayed Him (Jesus). Yet Judas was first numbered among the Twelve apostles (Lk.6:13, 22:3; Acts 1:16-17 numbered with us), “chosen” by Christ Himself,  the “Apostle Judas” became a traitor? How could they not know a betrayer was in their midst. How could Judas go out and minister with them and see the same results and yet turn Jesus over in the hands of those who hated him?

 Some things we need to notice about Judas, he called Jesus teacher, he never called Jesus Lord or master as the other apostles did. This may be a hint how he saw Jesus. Jesus wanted to be known as Lord, not just teacher (Mk.12:37; Lk.20:42; Jn.9:36-38). While the other disciples wondered what kind of man Jesus was, a man that could calm the sea by a word, Judas accepted him only as Rabbi.


 One cannot be an official apostle without seeing Jesus’ resurrection, which Judas did not see because he hung himself beforehand. The 12 were called apostles (chosen sent ones) prior but did not become the apostles of the Church until the resurrection, for the church was not officially born until the Holy Spirit was sent on Pentecost. It was then the apostles were put in their office  of teaching, planting churches and doing miracles in the power of the Holy  Spirit.

 Was Judas saved because he was a disciple and lost salvation? It is assumed he was saved because he traveled with the other disciples but it may be more prudent to take the position he was not*. Judas was hand picked like the other disciples* but his position was temporary (Jesus knew what was going on all along). He was given the job of treasury but he was secretly a thief. Jesus put Judas in charge of the very thing that would give either wings to his hearts corruption or for his repentance, money. Judas often heard Jesus speak on money but it did not change him. The possibility to reform him was always there but it did not occur because of his own heart not inclined to obey the words spoken by our Lord.

 It was Judas who showed what was in his heart when he complained about the oil was poured over Jesus preparing him for his burial.

 John 12:2-8 “T_here they made Him a supper; and Martha served, but Lazarus was one of those who sat at the table with Him. Then Mary took a pound of very costly oil of spikenard, anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped His feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the oil. Then one of His disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, who would betray Him, said_, “_Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denari and given to the poor_?” This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it. But Jesus said, “_Let her alone; she has kept this for the day of My burial. “For the poor you have with you always, but Me you do not have always._”

http://www.letusreason.org/doct48.htm

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## Terry1

> i am saying people who are saved still sin. But Jesus' blood covers our sins, period.


Ask yourself this question Kevin, does the blood of Jesus still cover those who have fallen from grace and their faith dead?  One has to have grace and faith before they can fall from it or faith die.  Are you saying that these people were never once among the elect of God?

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## Kevin007

> Ask yourself this question Kevin, does the blood of Jesus still cover those who have fallen from grace and their faith dead?  One has to have grace and faith before they can fall from it or faith die.  Are you saying that these people were never once among the elect of God?


show me in the Bible where a person lost their salvation..... Jesus' blood doesn't cover the unsaved, no. Jesus' blood covers all believer's sins. Just because they have wandered from God at times, doesn't mean they are not saved or His child who is sealed with His Spirit. What is falling away? one sin unrepented? 2, 3?

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## Kevin007

*Do Christians have to keep asking for forgiveness for their sins?*   *Question: "Do Christians have to keep asking for forgiveness for their sins?"

Answer:*  A frequent question is “what happens if I sin, and then I die before I  have an opportunity to confess that sin to God?” Another common question  is “what happens if I commit a sin, but then forget about it and never  remember to confess it to God?” Both of these questions rest on a faulty  assumption. Salvation is not a matter of believers trying to confess  and repent from every sin they commit before they die. Salvation is not  based on whether a Christian has confessed and repented of every sin.  Yes, we should confess our sins to God as soon as we are aware that we  have sinned. However, we do not always need to be asking God for  forgiveness. When we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, all  of our sins are forgiven. That includes past, present, and future, big  or small. Believers do not have to keep asking for forgiveness or  repenting in order to have their sins forgiven. Jesus died to pay the  penalty for all of our sins, and when they are forgiven, they are all  forgiven (Colossians 1:14; Acts 10:43).



Read more:  http://www.gotquestions.org/Christia...#ixzz3DXEZnwsY

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## Kevin007

> Ask yourself this question Kevin, does the blood of Jesus still cover those who have fallen from grace and their faith dead?  One has to have grace and faith before they can fall from it or faith die.  Are you saying that these people were never once among the elect of God?


if your child sins against you or runs away, or worse- are they still your son?

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## Terry1

> if your child sins against you or runs away, or worse- are they still your son?


That's a mighty slippery spiritual slope Kevin.  This is where you venture into that "once saved always saved" no matter who you kill or what kind of perverted life you choose to live without repentance.  

Is a life of sin without repentance after one has confessed Christ in the same category as one who has stumbled in faith and repented realizing where they made mistakes and returned back to God?

----------


## Kevin007

> That's a mighty slippery spiritual slope Kevin.  This is where you venture into that "once saved always saved" no matter who you kill or what kind of perverted life you choose to live without repentance.  
> 
> Is a life of sin without repentance after one has confessed Christ in the same category as one who has stumbled in faith and repented realizing where they made mistakes and returned back to God?


you didn't answer the question. Are they still your son? The answer is yes.

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## Terry1

> *Do Christians have to keep asking for forgiveness for their sins?*   *Question: "Do Christians have to keep asking for forgiveness for their sins?"
> 
> Answer:*  A frequent question is what happens if I sin, and then I die before I  have an opportunity to confess that sin to God? Another common question  is what happens if I commit a sin, but then forget about it and never  remember to confess it to God? Both of these questions rest on a faulty  assumption. Salvation is not a matter of believers trying to confess  and repent from every sin they commit before they die. Salvation is not  based on whether a Christian has confessed and repented of every sin.  Yes, we should confess our sins to God as soon as we are aware that we  have sinned. However, we do not always need to be asking God for  forgiveness. When we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, all  of our sins are forgiven. That includes past, present, and future, big  or small. *Believers do not have to keep asking for forgiveness or  repenting in order to have their sins forgiven.* Jesus died to pay the  penalty for all of our sins, and when they are forgiven, they are all  forgiven (Colossians 1:14; Acts 10:43).
> 
> 
> 
> Read more:  http://www.gotquestions.org/Christia...#ixzz3DXEZnwsY




Repentance is a daily exercise in faith Kevin of which without--we have no hope.  This is what Hebrews 6:4 is telling you.  When a believer can no longer be "RENEWED TO REPENTANCE"--God has turned them over to their own sin and delusions at that point where there is no coming back from.

You really need to avoid that "Got Questions" site--it's very wrong, unbiblical and misleading in every sense of the word.

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## Kevin007

> Repentance is a daily exercise in faith Kevin of which without--we have no hope.  This is what Hebrews 6:4 is telling you.  When a believer can no longer be "RENEWED TO REPENTANCE"--God has turned them over to their own sin and delusions at that point where there is no coming back from.
> 
> You really need to avoid that "Got Questions" site--it's very wrong, unbiblical and misleading in every sense of the word.


so Jesus only paid for repentant sins of the Believer?

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## HVACTech



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## Terry1

> so Jesus only paid for repentant sins of the Believer?


When a believer stumbles in faith and falls back into sin--how do they return to the Lord Kevin?  The only way back is through repentance.  Many of us stumble and fall back into old bad habits many times throughout our spiritual journey in faith--repentance is the only path back to God and the only way a believer can be forgiven is through repenting of the sin that they stumbled and fell back into.  

It's those who God knows will not repent and return to Him that He will not allow to be "renewed to repentance"--they are cut off permanently at that point because God knew they wouldn't return.

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## Terry1

> so Jesus only paid for repentant sins of the Believer?


Repentance is not a *one time event* at confession.  Repentance is a life-long process by learning from our mistakes and repenting of them.  Repent simply means to *change ones mind* that's followed by our actions as in *we stop doing something because it's wrong and not within the will of God*.  Jesus said--repent and be forgiven--He didn't say *you're forgiven whether you repent or not*.

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## Terry1

> you didn't answer the question. Are they still your son? The answer is yes.


Let God answer that one for you.

Matthew 7:21-23

I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.  22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’  *23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’*

Psalm 69: *28Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.*

Revelation 3:5

*He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life*, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels

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## lilymc

> Let God answer that one for you.
> 
> Matthew 7:21-23
> 
> I Never Knew You
> 
> 21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.  22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?  *23 And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!*


I'm glad you brought that up, because that is one of the best passages to show that once we're saved, we're saved.

Two points....

1)  Jesus said, "I *never* knew you."    If the person was at one time truly saved and a true child of God, then Jesus would have known them.

 He would have said, "I once knew you, but I no longer know you."

But what did He say?  He said, *"I never knew you."*       How much more plain and clear can it be?     He is flat out saying that they were never His!

2)  The people who He was talking to did not have a relationship with Him, and they were not obedient to Him, but they were doing works.  Listen to what they said, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?"

They did tons of works, but they obviously trusted in THEIR OWN WORKS instead of in Jesus.  And they did not obey Him, because He wants us to simply trust and have faith in HIM,_ not in our own works_. And He wants us to be born again.   

So that scripture not only does not help your position, but it goes directly against it.

As for the blotting names out verse, we already went over that earlier on the thread (or it might've been the other thread.)  You never responded to that.

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## Kevin007

> Let God answer that one for you.
> 
> Matthew 7:21-23
> 
> I Never Knew You
> 
> 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.  22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’  *23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’*
> 
> Psalm 69: *28Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.*
> ...


so you *never* knew your son?

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## Christian Liberty

@Kevin- Can a man choose to be born?

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## lilymc

> @Kevin- Can a man choose to be born?


We can choose to be born again.    

If it was not a choice, then Jesus would not have bothered emphasizing to Nicodemus the necessity to be born again.

But this thread is not about Calvinism, so that's a discussion for another time/place.

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## Brett85

> We can choose to be born again.    
> 
> If it was not a choice, then Jesus would not have bothered emphasizing to Nicodemus the necessity to be born again.
> 
> But this thread is not about Calvinism, so that's a discussion for another time/place.


What's the basis for believing in eternal security if you accept the concept of free will?  I can understand why the Calvinists believe in eternal security, because they believe that man literally has no free will at all, that God simply saves the elect and keeps them saved.  But if you're someone who believes in free will, that man has the ability to choose whether or not to serve God, why is it not possible for man to turn away from God and decide that he no longer wants anything to do with him?  To me it seems like the doctrines of free will and eternal security don't go together very well at all.

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## lilymc

> What's the basis for believing in eternal security if you accept the concept of free will?  I can understand why the Calvinists believe in eternal security, because they believe that man literally has no free will at all, that God simply saves the elect and keeps them saved.  But if you're someone who believes in free will, that man has the ability to choose whether or not to serve God, why is it not possible for man to turn away from God and decide that he no longer wants anything to do with him?  To me it seems like the doctrines of free will and eternal security don't go together very well at all.


The basis?  The whole bible.  Everyone has the choice to accept or reject God, but once we are saved, we are no longer the same person.  We are a new creation.  We have (in a sense) a new DNA.  

Once we are adopted into God's family, we no longer want what the world has to offer. And even if we do stray or get lost for a time, we are still God's children, and He will bring us back to Him.  As I said in post #87, the Romans verse is clear that nothing can separate us from God's love, and He will never leave us.

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## Terry1

> The basis?  The whole bible.  Everyone has the choice to accept or reject God, but once we are saved, we are no longer the same person.  We are a new creation.  We have (in a sense) a new DNA.  
> 
> Once we are adopted into God's family, we no longer want what the world has to offer. And even if we do stray or get lost for a time, we are still God's children, and He will bring us back to Him.  As I said in post #87, the Romans verse is clear that nothing can separate us from God's love, and He will never leave us.


This is why Protestants argue with each other, because you all believe something different from the other.  Calvinism vs Arminianism, perseverance of the saints vs the free will, faith in faith doctrines, no repentance needed doctrines.  Protestants are all over the spiritual and biblical map with what they believe denotes eternal security and salvation.  They preach a thousand different gospels and argue with each other all day long and there's a reason that Protestants can not come together in their doctrinal beliefs.

Perseverance of the saints is spawned from John Calvin--whether it's the belief in Predestination in this life or OSAS in this life.  It all denotes that one can not lose their salvation in this life.  These doctrines breed and encourage corrupt lives and violence assuring people that no matter what they do or how they live they "can not fall from grace or lose their salvation in this life".  These false teachings were dreamed up by the reformers to refute the Catholic faith.  They didn't just want their freedom from the Catholic church--they wanted to pervert the Gospel of Christ as well and create another Jesus of their own making saying that nothing you do in this life will affect your eternal security after making a statement of confession that you believe in Christ.

This absolute garbage being taught that we don't have to repent of anything after a one time confession of belief is insane and it's beyond me as to who could believe something like that other than someone who wanted to live a life outside of the will of God and still believe they're saved and remain in the state of elect no matter what they do or how they live.

Think about how you raise your own children for goodness sakes.  Do you tell them that they'll always be rewarded for bad behavior?  So if they grow up to be some violent rapist and murderer who's turned their life over to satan that you'll still love who they are and what they've become because you gave birth to them and that they'll always be welcome back into your home and trust?  Are these the people God wants to inherit the Kingdom of heaven?  

Think about what you're believing and advocating because Charles Stanley teaches the very same thing as I just stated claiming there's nothing anyone can do to lose their salvation after they've confessed belief just once in their life.  Do not sit here and tell me that "they were never saved"---if you believe that a one time confession is all that saves--then by that same logic---they were once saved and chose by their own free will to walk away from God and abandon His will.

TC is absolutely correct stating that believing in the "free will" and the OSAS doctrine contradict one another.  What good is believing that people have a free will if you believe that people never have or will use their free will to abandon their belief and faith in Christ.  Even FF sees the illogical state of belief here believing in Predestination alone as he does, which is also wrong, but it makes more sense to believe that we don't have a free will and that we've been Predestined--even though that doctrine is wrong as well.

None of this garbage was taught until the 15th century and the reformers perverted the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

----------


## Terry1

> so you *never* knew your son?


Gods word clearly tells you that those who do not abide in the Son Jesus Christ will not inherit the Kingdom of heaven.  "Abide" means to live a life in Christ that exemplifies our Lord through us.  Those who abandon Christ by never repenting or believing there's no need to are in danger of becoming reprobates with this belief.

Do you know what a reprobate is and how they reach this state of being?  It's not a matter of them never having been in the state of elect--it's a matter of them having fallen from it.  The lost who have never been saved or in the state of elect are just that and unbelievers.  Unbelievers can't fall from something or lose something they never had to begin with.  Do you understand this?




1 Corinthians 6:9 

9* Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
*

Do you actually believe that your one-time confession of faith without repenting of anything for the rest of your life no matter how corrupt or evil you become that God will still permit you to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

Galations 5:
*4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.* 

The "law" that St. Paul is talking about here is the OT law of Moses of dead works.  We are justified by faith only because of what we do based upon what it is that we believe.  Then James tells you that "faith without works is dead being alone".

So Paul tells you that "ye have fallen from grace".  This is why Paul warns us to continually "abide" in Christ by walking in the Spirit of the Lord--always.  We have a choice in the matter--we can choose to *walk away* and live outside of the spirit of the Lord and fall from grace--faith then dies at that point if we ignore the Holy Spirit for too long.  

Why don't you explain what Hebrews 6:4 is saying then Kevin.

----------


## Brett85

> The basis?  The whole bible.  Everyone has the choice to accept or reject God, but once we are saved, we are no longer the same person.  We are a new creation.  We have (in a sense) a new DNA.


So then does that mean that we lose our free will after we become saved?

----------


## Terry1

> The basis?  The whole bible.  Everyone has the choice to accept or reject God, but once we are saved, we are no longer the same person.  We are a new creation.  We have (in a sense) a new DNA.  
> 
> Once we are adopted into God's family, we no longer want what the world has to offer. And even if we do stray or get lost for a time, we are still God's children, and He will bring us back to Him.  As I said in post #87, the Romans verse is clear that nothing can separate us from God's love, and He will never leave us.


He will *never leave us*.  People can and do walk away from Christ though and although God said He's patient and gives mankind "space to repent"--He knows when a person will never return to Him and cuts them off for good at some point knowing their hearts.  This does not mean that they were "never saved"--it means they used their own free will to walk away.  

OSAS people do not understand what Hebrews 6:4 is saying.   Because Hebrews 6:4 contradicts your interpretation of other scriptures talking about a future event after this life that you believe is talking about this life--as in "can not snatch them out of the Fathers hands".  That is a future event in the next life.  People can walk away and they can be snatched out of the Fathers hands during the course of this life by their own free will to choose opposite God and fall back into sin.  

If we were OSAS--after a one-time confession--it would not be possible to "fall back" into sin.  One has to be *free from sin* at some point before they can fall back into it.  Use the God given common sense logic in this case.

You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth by claiming that we have a free will to choose at any given point in our lives, but then saying that if they walk away that they were never saved at all.  Can you see the contradiction here?

----------


## lilymc

> This is why Protestants argue with each other, because you all believe something different from the other.  Calvinism vs Arminianism, perseverance of the saints vs the free will, faith in faith doctrines, no repentance needed doctrines.  Protestants are all over the spiritual and biblical map with what they believe denotes eternal security and salvation.  They preach a thousand different gospels and argue with each other all day long and there's a reason that Protestants can not come together in their doctrinal beliefs.


I don't consider myself a Protestant, I'm just a Christian.  None of the rest of what you said has to do with this topic.   




> Perseverance of the saints is spawned from John Calvin--whether it's the belief in Predestination in this life or OSAS in this life.  It all denotes that one can not lose their salvation in this life.  These doctrines breed and encourage corrupt lives and violence assuring people that no matter what they do or how they live they "can not fall from grace or lose their salvation in this life".  These false teachings were dreamed up by the reformers to refute the Catholic faith.  They didn't just want their freedom from the Catholic church--they wanted to pervert the Gospel of Christ as well and create another Jesus of their own making saying that nothing you do in this life will affect your eternal security after making a statement of confession that you believe in Christ.


You have been consistently avoiding direct questions to you, or direct points brought up in response to your posts.  So, evidently the only thing you have now is to attack the idea of eternal security through your wording, or by claiming it was "spawned" from Calvin.

I'm sorry, but I don't care about Calvin, I only care about what the bible says, what GOD says. 




> This absolute garbage being taught that we don't have to repent of anything after a one time confession of belief is insane and it's beyond me as to who could believe something like that other than someone who wanted to live a life outside of the will of God and still believe they're saved and remain in the state of elect no matter what they do or how they live.


No one said that.  And that is absolutely NOT what I believe.  

But, as I said on the previous page (a post you ignored) the idea that we have to constantly ask for forgiveness in order to get re-saved every 5 minutes or else go to hell is one of the most absurd, unChristian things I have ever heard.  

We should repent and regularly do a "heart check" and make sure we are right with God, because we should always be in a right relationship with God.  But not because we go back and forth from "saved" to "unsaved" then to "saved" then back to "unsaved" every 5 minutes.  That shows a complete misunderstanding on what salvation is.   




> Think about how you raise your own children for goodness sakes.  Do you tell them that they'll always be rewarded for bad behavior?  So if they grow up to be some violent rapist and murderer who's turned their life over to satan that you'll still love who they are and what they've become because you gave birth to them and that they'll always be welcome back into your home and trust?  Are these the people God wants to inherit the Kingdom of heaven?


Another straw man.  Nobody has said that kids should be rewarded for bad behavior.  As for the point you are trying to make, that has been addressed a number of times.  If you read and respond to my posts point by point (instead of replying with a long chunk of text that is unrelated to the post you're replying to) then you will see that has been addressed.




> Think about what you're believing and advocating because Charles Stanley teaches the very same thing as I just stated claiming there's nothing anyone can do to lose their salvation after they've confessed belief just once in their life.  Do not sit here and tell me that "they were never saved"---if you believe that a one time confession is all that saves--then by that same logic---they were once saved and chose by their own free will to walk away from God and abandon His will.


You seem awfully concerned about all sorts of scenarios that have already been explained repeatedly. So I can only assume you are ignoring posts.   And you seem awfully concerned about how "unjust" it would be if someone were to do a one time confession, then live a life of sin.

Terry, you are showing a lack of faith in God  AND, in a way, you are trying to play God.  

God knows what He's doing. He can do His job just fine.   Nobody is going to pull the wool over His eyes.   He knows our hearts, and to me it seems obvious that someone who would do a half-hearted, empty one-time confession then return to a life of sin is NOT truly saved, so you don't have to worry about the "injustice" that you perceive.  But ultimately all of this is GOD'S call, not ours.  

And He knows how to do His job, we don't have to worry about that.   




> TC is absolutely correct stating that believing in the "free will" and the OSAS doctrine contradict one another.  What good is believing that people have a free will if you believe that people never have or will use their free will to abandon their belief and faith in Christ.  Even FF sees the illogical state of belief here believing in Predestination alone as he does, which is also wrong, but it makes more sense to believe that we don't have a free will and that we've been Predestined--even though that doctrine is wrong as well.
> 
> None of this garbage was taught until the 15th century and the reformers perverted the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


Again, no answers to any questions or points, all you are doing at this point is trying to badmouth a doctrine (by calling it "garbage" or "spawned", etc).

I don't know any Calvinists (irl), but all the non-Catholic Christians I know believe in eternal security.    It is biblical.  

I've taken the time to answer your post point by point,  so please respond to my posts point by point.

----------


## lilymc

> He will *never leave us*.  People can and do walk away from Christ though and although God said He's patient and gives mankind "space to repent"--He knows when a person will never return to Him and cuts them off for good at some point knowing their hearts.  This does not mean that they were "never saved"--it means they used their own free will to walk away.


Read Romans 8:38-39, and pay close attention to the words "nor ANY created thing."   That includes ourselves.    




> OSAS people do not understand what Hebrews 6:4 is saying.   Because Hebrews 6:4 contradicts your interpretation of other scriptures talking about a future event after this life that you believe is talking about this life--as in "can not snatch them out of the Fathers hands".  That is a future event in the next life.  People can walk away and they can be snatched out of the Fathers hands during the course of this life by their own free will to choose opposite God and fall back into sin.


There are a couple different interpretations of Hebrews 6:4, but I don't have the time right now to get into an in-depth bible study on that passage. But I will say one thing.  It goes against your view, because it is indicating that you can't go back and forth from saved to unsaved then back to saved again.

A person is either saved or they're not.  It isn't a back and forth thing, and one can't be a "little bit saved" just as you can't be  "a little bit pregnant."




> If we were OSAS--after a one-time confession--it would not be possible to "fall back" into sin.  One has to be *free from sin* at some point before they can fall back into it.  Use the God given common sense logic in this case.


We are _forgiven_ of all our sins, but that doesn't mean we will never again sin (in this life, in this fallen world.)  We will not be free from sin until heaven.




> You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth by claiming that we have a free will to choose at any given point in our lives, but then saying that if they walk away that they were never saved at all.  Can you see the contradiction here?


No, there's no contradiction, you are just misunderstanding.   I don't believe in Calvinism.   I've just been saying that there are SOME people who might consider themselves to be Christians, and then later walk away thinking, "This is all BS."    But the problem is that they never went through regeneration and were never sealed with the Holy Spirit.       It was never a matter of them not having free will, it was simply that they never actually got saved.  

This is not that difficult.  I don't know why you are not understanding, or trying to make it more difficult than it is.

----------


## lilymc

> So then does that mean that we lose our free will after we become saved?


No, we still have free will, but as always, that free will has certain parameters.  

I don't want to assume anything, but I have to say, you seem very opposed to the idea that we can't get away from God whenever we want to.

Why is that?  Do you think that there is something better than God in this universe?  Do you think that one can ever have true peace and happiness apart from God?

----------


## Miss Annie

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is *NOT justified by the works of the law*, *but by the faith of Jesus Christ*, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and *not by the works of the law*: for *by the works of the law shall NO flesh be justified*.
Ga 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Ga 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Ga 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Ga 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: *for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.*

Ga 5:1 ¶ Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Ga 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, *whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.*

----------


## lilymc

> Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is *NOT justified by the works of the law*, *but by the faith of Jesus Christ*, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and *not by the works of the law*: for *by the works of the law shall NO flesh be justified*.
> Ga 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
> Ga 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
> Ga 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
> Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
> Ga 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: *for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.*
> 
> Ga 5:1 ¶ Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
> Ga 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
> ...


So glad you posted that, I don't know how much more clear it can get!      Amen, Miss Annie!

----------


## Crashland

> No, we still have free will, but as always, that free will has certain parameters.


By parameters, do you mean constraints? Because that's the only part of it we are talking about here. We're not discussing whether or not you have the free will to choose cereal or oatmeal for breakfast. We're talking specifically about whether you have the free will to reject God after having accepted God. If the answer is no, then we do not have free will in this context.

----------


## Brett85

> No, we still have free will, but as always, that free will has certain parameters.  
> 
> I don't want to assume anything, but I have to say, you seem very opposed to the idea that we can't get away from God whenever we want to.
> 
> Why is that?  Do you think that there is something better than God in this universe?  Do you think that one can ever have true peace and happiness apart from God?


It doesn't seem like you really believe in "free will" in the sense that I do.  I believe that God gives us the choice of whether or not we want to serve him and whether or not we want to follow him.  God doesn't force us to come to him and to serve him.  If you believe that we make the choice to follow God and serve God, as I do, then I don't really see why you also don't believe that we have the choice to turn our back on God and walk away from our faith.

----------


## PierzStyx

> Ad hominem fallacy.  "Don't dare think for yourself you blasphemer!"  There is not a person on earth who gets off of a sinking ship onto a rescue ship that thinks it was "about him" just because he got on the rescue ship rather than swimming away to the sharks.  What is "absurd" is the argument that believing you have the freewill to accept or reject salvation somehow makes salvation about "you".  It doesn't.


The objection you're responding against is ridiculous. Because Jesus has made me a moral agent, able to choose between good and evil doesn't mean it isn't His power or sacrifice that makes me so. But you know what? I can't think of anything more holy than a God that loves me enough to give me a choice in teh matter and make it about me. God is not a narcissist who needs constant reassurance or finds the strength of others weakens Him. God lifts us, gives us strength, ordains us with eternal power and loses none of His own. What a little god some people worship, who is threatened by His children.

----------


## PierzStyx

> you didn't answer the question. Are they still your son? The answer is yes.



if my child murders someone, do they still deserve prison? Yes. Likewise with Hell.

----------


## Crashland

> if my child murders someone, do they still deserve prison? Yes. Likewise with Hell.


Hell is more like getting life in prison or capital punishment for stealing a penny. Infinitely severe punishment for temporal, finite crimes.

----------


## Dr.3D

> Hell is more like getting life in prison or capital punishment for stealing a penny. Infinitely severe punishment for temporal, finite crimes.


Rejecting the gift Jesus is offering, isn't a temporal, finite crime.

----------


## lilymc

> It doesn't seem like you really believe in "free will" in the sense that I do.  I believe that God gives us the choice of whether or not we want to serve him and whether or not we want to follow him.  God doesn't force us to come to him and to serve him.  If you believe that we make the choice to follow God and serve God, as I do, then I don't really see why you also don't believe that we have the choice to turn our back on God and walk away from our faith.


 Of course we we have the choice to serve God or not, and of course God doesn't force us to come to Him, we come to Him WILLINGLY. 

As I already stated, once we are saved, we are no longer the same. There is a very real event that takes place, that changes us, we have a new nature, a new heart.  We no longer want what we used to want, we no longer want to be our own boss.  Of course sanctification doesn't happen overnight, but it happens, and in goes in the direction of holiness and spiritual maturity.

And after we're saved,  I believe we still have the choice on "how far" we want to go in terms of our walk with God.  Some people want to devote every moment of their life to serving God.  Other people may be far less zealous and far less active for God.   That's their choice, because God doesn't force us.  That is why - as Kevin stated -  there are different levels of rewards,  and THAT is where works come in.... not to determine our salvation, but the level of rewards in heaven.

We have an entire lifetime to decide whether we want God or not.  If a person really wants to reject God, I believe they have that right.  I have been saying over and over that a person who would do that was never truly saved in the first place.  No true believer who has been regenerated and has experienced God in their life would choose to reject God. 

But you didn't answer my question.  Why do you seem to fear not being able to go back and forth?   Do you fear commitment to God?    And my other question was, do you think there is something in the universe that is better than God?  Do you think a person can have true peace and joy apart from God?  Please answer.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> Rejecting the gift Jesus is offering, isn't a temporal, finite crime.


Its really too bad BOTH Nang and SF are banned ATM... because one of them would almost certainly try to debate against the "Jesus is offering a gift" terminology... I'm not knowledgeable enough to do so so I won't...

----------


## Dr.3D

> Its really too bad BOTH Nang and SF are banned ATM... because one of them would almost certainly try to debate against the "Jesus is offering a gift" terminology... I'm not knowledgeable enough to do so so I won't...


That's good, because I rarely post because I don't wish to argue.

----------


## Crashland

> Rejecting the gift Jesus is offering, isn't a temporal, finite crime.


Yes it is, because you only have a limited amount of time to accept it. For a choice that you might have 70 years (being generous) to make, if you fail to make that choice in 70 years, then you will be punished for
1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,  000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years. Then raise that number to the power of itself. And then that's just a drop in the bucket of how severely you will be punished, and you will never again get a chance to make it right through all of eternity, for the mistake you made during the few seconds you were alive on earth.

----------


## Dr.3D

> Yes it is, because you only have a limited amount of time to accept it. For a choice that you might have 70 years (being generous) to make, if you fail to make that choice in 70 years, then you will be punished for
> 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,  000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years. Then raise that number to the power of itself. And then that's just a drop in the bucket of how severely you will be punished, and you will never again get a chance to make it right through all of eternity, for the mistake you made during the few seconds you were alive on earth.


And people still wonder why they were born.   Sigh.....  it's only a lifetime.

----------


## lilymc

> if my child murders someone, do they still deserve prison? Yes. Likewise with Hell.


So you believe David is in hell?

----------


## Brett85

> But you didn't answer my question.  Why do you seem to fear not being able to go back and forth?   Do you fear commitment to God?    And my other question was, do you think there is something in the universe that is better than God?  Do you think a person can have true peace and joy apart from God?  Please answer.


I don't want to go back and forth.  I have no intention of ever abandoning my faith.  I've just come to the conclusion that the doctrine of eternal security is false after reading the Bible and coming to my own conclusions, not worrying about church tradition and what other people think.  It's as simple as that.

The answer to your second question is "no," I don't think that a person can have true peace and joy apart from God

----------


## Brett85

> Yes it is, because you only have a limited amount of time to accept it. For a choice that you might have 70 years (being generous) to make, if you fail to make that choice in 70 years, then you will be punished for
> 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,  000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years. Then raise that number to the power of itself. And then that's just a drop in the bucket of how severely you will be punished, and you will never again get a chance to make it right through all of eternity, for the mistake you made during the few seconds you were alive on earth.


What's your view on my view that I've presented that I believe that the unsaved are thrown into the lake of fire and perish there, and are dead for all eternity.  Do you think that's an unfair punishment?

----------


## Terry1

OSAS can not be true based upon these scriptures.  No one is eternally secure until they've finished this life--All of the scriptures clearly say that it "MIGHT BE" and that we have "THE HOPE" of salvation based upon our enduring till the end of this life.  Our salvation is most certainly conditional upon us enduring till the end of this life--until then we have the hope and that it might be if we continually walk in the spirit of the Lord.  You can not choose yourself and presume upon God that He's already chosen you.


*"MIGHT BE"* 


 63.Romans 3:26 
 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
 Romans 3:25-27 (in Context) Romans 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 64.Romans 4:11 
 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
 Romans 4:10-12 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 65.Romans 4:16 
 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
 Romans 4:15-17 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 66.Romans 4:18 
 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
 Romans 4:17-19 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 67.Romans 6:6 
 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
 Romans 6:5-7 (in Context) Romans 6 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 68.Romans 7:13 
 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
 Romans 7:12-14 (in Context) Romans 7 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 69.Romans 8:4 
 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 Romans 8:3-5 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 70.Romans 8:29 
 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 Romans 8:28-30 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 71.Romans 9:17 
 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
 Romans 9:16-18 (in Context) Romans 9 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 72.Romans 10:1 
 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
 Romans 10:1-3 (in Context) Romans 10 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 73.Romans 11:19 
 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
 Romans 11:18-20 (in Context) Romans 11 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 74.Romans 14:9 
 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
 Romans 14:8-10 (in Context) Romans 14 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 75.Romans 15:16 
 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
 76.1 Corinthians 5:2 
 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
 1 Corinthians 5:1-3 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 77.1 Corinthians 9:23 
 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
 1 Corinthians 9:22-24 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 9 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 78.2 Corinthians 4:10 
 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
 2 Corinthians 4:9-11 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 79.2 Corinthians 4:11 
 For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
 2 Corinthians 4:10-12 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 80.2 Corinthians 5:4 
 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
 2 Corinthians 5:3-5 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 81.2 Corinthians 5:21 
 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
 2 Corinthians 5:20-21 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 82.2 Corinthians 8:9 
 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
 2 Corinthians 8:8-10 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 8 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 83.2 Corinthians 9:5 
 Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.
 2 Corinthians 9:4-6 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 9 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 84.2 Corinthians 11:7 
 Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?
 2 Corinthians 11:6-8 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 11 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 85.Galatians 2:16 
 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 Galatians 2:15-17 (in Context) Galatians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 86.Galatians 3:22 
 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
 Galatians 3:21-23 (in Context) Galatians 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 87.Galatians 3:24 
 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
 Galatians 3:23-25 (in Context) Galatians 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 88.Ephesians 3:10 
 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
 Ephesians 3:9-11 (in Context) Ephesians 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 89.Ephesians 3:19 
 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
 Ephesians 3:18-20 (in Context) Ephesians 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 90.Colossians 1:9 
 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
 Colossians 1:8-10 (in Context) Colossians 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 91.Colossians 2:2 
 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
 Colossians 2:1-3 (in Context) Colossians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 92.1 Thessalonians 2:16 
 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
 1 Thessalonians 2:15-17 (in Context) 1 Thessalonians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 93.2 Thessalonians 2:6 
 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
 2 Thessalonians 2:5-7 (in Context) 2 Thessalonians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 94.2 Thessalonians 2:10 
 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
 2 Thessalonians 2:9-11 (in Context) 2 Thessalonians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 95.2 Thessalonians 2:12 
 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 2 Thessalonians 2:11-13 (in Context) 2 Thessalonians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 96.2 Timothy 4:17 
 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.
 2 Timothy 4:16-18 (in Context) 2 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 97.Titus 3:8 
 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*

*We have "THE HOPE"*

 10.Acts 16:19 
 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,
 Acts 16:18-20 (in Context) Acts 16 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 11.Acts 23:6 
 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: *of the hope and resurrection of the dead* I am called in question.
 Acts 23:5-7 (in Context) Acts 23 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 12.Acts 26:6 
 And now I stand and am judged for *the hope of the promise made of God,* unto our fathers:
 Acts 26:5-7 (in Context) Acts 26 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 13.Acts 28:20 
 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that* for the hope of Israel* I am bound with this chain.
 Acts 28:19-21 (in Context) Acts 28 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 14.Galatians 5:5 
 For we through the Spirit wait for the *hope of righteousness by faith*.
 Galatians 5:4-6 (in Context) Galatians 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 15.Ephesians 1:18 
 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is *the hope of his calling*, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
 Ephesians 1:17-19 (in Context) Ephesians 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 16.Colossians 1:5 
*For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven*, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
 Colossians 1:4-6 (in Context) Colossians 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 17.Colossians 1:23 
 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the *hope of the gospel*, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
 Colossians 1:22-24 (in Context) Colossians 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 18.Colossians 1:27 
 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, *the hope of glory:
* Colossians 1:26-28 (in Context) Colossians 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 19.1 Thessalonians 5:8 
 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, *the hope of salvation*.
 1 Thessalonians 5:7-9 (in Context) 1 Thessalonians 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 20.Titus 3:7 
 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to *the hope of eternal life*.
 Titus 3:6-8 (in Context) Titus 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 21.Hebrews 3:6 
 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of *the hope firm unto the end*.
 Hebrews 3:5-7 (in Context) Hebrews 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 22.Hebrews 6:18 
 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the *hope set before us:
* Hebrews 6:17-19 (in Context) Hebrews 6 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 23.1 Peter 3:15 
 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the *hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
* 1.Job 14:19 
 The waters wear the stones: thou washest away the things which grow out of the dust of the earth; and thou destroyest* the hope of man*.
 Job 14:18-20 (in Context) Job 14 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 2.Job 27:8 
 For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul?
 Job 27:7-9 (in Context) Job 27 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 3.Job 41:9 
 Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?
 Job 41:8-10 (in Context) Job 41 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 4.Proverbs 10:28 
*The hope of the righteous shall be gladness*: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.
 Proverbs 10:27-29 (in Context) Proverbs 10 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 5.Proverbs 11:7 
 When a wicked man dieth, his expectation shall perish: and the hope of unjust men perisheth.
 Proverbs 11:6-8 (in Context) Proverbs 11 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 6.Jeremiah 14:8 
*O the hope of Israel*, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night?
 Jeremiah 14:7-9 (in Context) Jeremiah 14 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 7.Jeremiah 17:13 
*O Lord, the hope of Israel*, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the Lord, the fountain of living waters.
 Jeremiah 17:12-14 (in Context) Jeremiah 17 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 8.Jeremiah 50:7 
 All that found them have devoured them: and their adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned against the Lord, the habitation of justice, even the Lord, the hope of their fathers.
 Jeremiah 50:6-8 (in Context) Jeremiah 50 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
 9.Joel 3:16 
 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be *the hope of his people,* and the strength of the children of Israel.
 Joel 3:15-17 (in Context) Joel 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

----------


## lilymc

> I don't want to go back and forth.  I have no intention of ever abandoning my faith.  I've just come to the conclusion that the doctrine of eternal security is false after reading the Bible and coming to my own conclusions, not worrying about church tradition and what other people think.  It's as simple as that.
> 
> The answer to your second question is "no," I don't think that a person can have true peace and joy apart from God


Thanks for the reply.  I'm just curious, do you believe that Jesus died for only our past sins?  Or for our past, present and future sins?

In other words, do you agree with the view of some churches  that believers have to get saved everyday, in a sense, crucifying the Son of God over and over.

And I'm sorry, but I have one more question.     When God said said that once we are truly saved, we receive eternal life.... if a person later "loses their salvation"  was that life they received eternal or just temporary?

----------


## Brett85

> Thanks for the reply.  I'm just curious, do you believe that Jesus died for only our past sins?  Or for our past, present and future sins?
> 
> In other words, do you agree with the view of some churches  that believers have to get saved everyday, in a sense, crucifying the Son of God over and over.


I think that Jesus died for all our sins, past, present, and future.  But I think the Bible teaches that confessing our sins is a requirement for being forgiven for our sins.  That doesn't mean that if you look at a woman lustfully and then get hit by a bus and die before you confess that sin you're going to get thrown in hell, but it means that you can't just habitually sin, think that there's nothing wrong with it, and not ask for forgiveness for your sins.  Jesus died for all of our sins, but he didn't die simply to give us a license to sin.  Confessing your sins and having a contrite heart is necessary for the forgiveness of sins.

1 John 1: 9

*If we confess our sins*, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.




> And I'm sorry, but I have one more question.  When God said said that once we are truly saved, we receive eternal life.... if a person later "loses their salvation" was that life they received eternal or just temporary?


Can you tell me what verse you're referring to specifically?

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## Crashland

> What's your view on my view that I've presented that I believe that the unsaved are thrown into the lake of fire and perish there, and are dead for all eternity.  Do you think that's an unfair punishment?


My gut reaction to that is a lot more favorable. To me, going back to being dead isn't really a punishment - I see it as being the same as it was before existing in the first place, which really wasn't so bad if I recall. I would still have a big problem with the method by which God decides who perishes and who doesn't. But in terms of my issue with Hell, I don't really have a problem with it in your view, because in that case Hell basically doesn't exist, at least not in the same sense as other people refer to it.

----------


## lilymc

> I think that Jesus died for all our sins, past, present, and future.  But I think the Bible teaches that confessing our sins is a requirement for being forgiven for our sins.  That doesn't mean that if you look at a woman lustfully and then get hit by a bus and die before you confess that sin you're going to get thrown in hell, but it means that you can't just habitually sin, think that there's nothing wrong with it, and not ask for forgiveness for your sins.  Jesus died for all of our sins, but he didn't die simply to give us a license to sin.  Confessing your sins and having a contrite heart is necessary for the forgiveness of sins.
> 
> 1 John 1: 9
> 
> *If we confess our sins*, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.


Those two views are contradictory. If Jesus died for ALL our sins (not just our past sins) then it makes no sense to say that we have to repeatedly ask for forgiveness in order to maintain our salvation.

However, I do agree that we should always confess our sins to God and continually make sure we are in a right relationship with God.

But there is a difference between confessing our sins and repenting in order to restore our relationship with God, and confessing and repenting in order to maintain our salvation.  The latter is a misunderstanding of salvation.

I said this before a few times on the thread, but the word "saved" is meaningless if we have to keep getting saved after every sin.

We are told to confess and repent in order to be right with God, our heavenly Father, not in order to maintain our salvation.

Again, we are either saved or we're not saved.   It is not a back and forth or partial thing!




> Can you tell me what verse you're referring to specifically?


"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has *eternal life*. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have *eternal life*." John 3:16

"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have* eternal life*, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:40

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is *eternal life* through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23


"but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to *eternal life.*"  John 4:14


and more....

If one is truly saved, they receive eternal life... that is what God says.    So, if a person is truly saved and then rejects or "loses" their salvation, was that life they received eternal?  Or was it temporary?

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## Brett85

> Those two views are contradictory. If Jesus died for ALL our sins (not just our past sins) then it makes no sense to say that we have to repeatedly ask for forgiveness in order to maintain our salvation.


Then why does 1 John 1: 9 state that confessing your sins is a prerequisite for the forgiveness of sins?  The verse doesn't say "if you sin, God will forgive you no matter what."  The verse says that if you confess your sins, he will forgive you of your sins.  So that verse is clear that maintaining a relationship with God and confessing your sins to him is a requirement for being forgiven of your sins.

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## Brett85

> "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has *eternal life*. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24
> 
> "For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have *eternal life*." John 3:16
> 
> "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have* eternal life*, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:40
> 
> "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is *eternal life* through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23
> 
> 
> ...


All those verses say is that you're required to hear his word and believe in him in order to receive eternal life.  As long as you continue to hear his word and believe in him, you will receive eternal life.  But Jesus was also clear that only those who persevere until the end will be saved.  Having a one time confession of faith when you were young isn't enough to make it to heaven.  You have to be a believer until the end of your life to be saved.

Matthew 24: 13

But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

----------


## Kevin007

> It doesn't seem like you really believe in "free will" in the sense that I do.  I believe that God gives us the choice of whether or not we want to serve him and whether or not we want to follow him.  God doesn't force us to come to him and to serve him.  If you believe that we make the choice to follow God and serve God, as I do, then I don't really see* why you also don't believe that we have the choice to turn our back on God and walk away from our faith.*


Because of several reasons. One- if you are truly saved, the Holy Spirit dwells in you - Believer's are SEALED until the day of redemption. Secondly, Jesus said "I will never leave you or forsake you. If you have accepted Jesus as Savior, He is not leaving and you are not either. Free will is still in play- to sin- because that is what we do- we sin while we are still in the flesh.

Thirdly- you are only looking at this from a human perspective. God the Father sees us as positionally perfect through His Son as Believer's. Sins after conversion do not jeapordize our eternal salvation. God will and can let bad things happen to us to wake us up or get back on the right track- but He will never force us to (free will). God lets His children go through trails and pain to teach us something and/or because we are not listening (and other reasons for His glory).

I'm not sure what the trouble with OSAS is from other Christians. The OSAS "camp" believes that Jesus paid the penalty for all our sins. ALL MEANS ALL. Past/present/future. Jesus died for us while we were STILL SINNERS. God the Father knows every single sin we will commit in our lives. Nothing is a surprise to Him.

The most important question in the universe- our eternal salvation; why would He leave us guessing? We are either saved or not saved. Those who are not saved can still come to the Savior before they die. Calvin/ Luther were only mere sinful men. I do not agree with everything either teaches and neither should you agree with everything someone teaches. Look in your Bible and pray to God to let the Holy Spirit guide you in all truth.

I truly believe that when we accept Christ as our Savior, the Holy Spirit was working on our heart for a long time BEFORE we confessed Him as our Lord. ANY PERSON can go up to an alter call and lie to themselves and others- but not to God. He sees the heart. Staying in Gods "good graces" does not require constantly repenting every single sin. I bet almost anything all of us have sinned many times today WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING OR REPENTING; or we forget to repent- and guess what? Those sins are covered by the blood too.

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## Kevin007

> All those verses say is that you're required to hear his word and believe in him in order to receive eternal life.  As long as you continue to hear his word and believe in him, you will receive eternal life.  But Jesus was also clear that only those who persevere until the end will be saved.  Having a one time confession of faith when you were young isn't enough to make it to heaven.  You have to be a believer until the end of your life to be saved.
> 
> Matthew 24: 13
> 
> But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.


show me one person, or 2 is better- who were saved in the NT and lost their salvation. Judas was not saved and I already posted info on that. But - EVEN IF Judas was saved then not (He wasn't) why would God only have ONE SINGLE man lose his salvation out of the entire NT if it was such a dangerous understanding of Scripture?

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## Kevin007

> Then why does 1 John 1: 9 state that confessing your sins is a prerequisite for the forgiveness of sins?  The verse doesn't say "if you sin, God will forgive you no matter what."  The verse says that if you confess your sins, he will forgive you of your sins.  So that verse is clear that *maintaining a relationship with God* and confessing your sins to him is a requirement for being forgiven of your sins.


Maintaining a good relationship, yes, but we are still in a relationship with Him. Does the Holy Spirit just get up and leave a Believer? Than come back again after you repent? Please show me in the Bible where this happened? Does a relationship with your friend end just because they had sinned against you? Does the relationship sever because of one unrepented sin? Of course not! How much more stronger is that bond with God? Esp. since the Believer has the Holy Spirit in them, who convicts them of that sin(s).

----------


## Kevin007

> All those verses say is that you're required to hear his word and believe in him in order to receive eternal life.  As long as you continue to hear his word and believe in him, you will receive eternal life.  But Jesus was also clear that only those who persevere until the end will be saved.  Having a one time confession of faith when you were young isn't enough to make it to heaven.  You have to be a believer until the end of your life to be saved.
> 
> *Matthew 24: 13*
> 
> But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.


this verse isn't talking about us now. It is talking about the TRIBULATION. Believer's will be long gone before then. Read the entire chapter for CORRECT CONTEXT.

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## Kevin007

> OSAS can not be true based upon these scriptures.  No one is eternally secure until they've finished this life--All of the scriptures clearly say that it "MIGHT BE" and that we have "THE HOPE" of salvation based upon our enduring till the end of this life.  Our salvation is most certainly conditional upon us enduring till the end of this life--until then we have the hope and that it might be if we continually walk in the spirit of the Lord.  You can not choose yourself and presume upon God that He's already chosen you.
> 
> 
> *"MIGHT BE"* 
> 
> 
>  63.Romans 3:26 
>  To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
>  Romans 3:25-27 (in Context) Romans 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 
> ...



Most of the scriptures having nothing to do with OSAS. Besides I can give you twice the amount proving OSAS.

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## Dr.3D

> show me one person, or 2 is better- who were saved in the NT and lost their salvation. Judas was not saved and I already posted info on that. But - EVEN IF Judas was saved then not (He wasn't) why would God only have ONE SINGLE man lose his salvation out of the entire NT if it was such a dangerous understanding of Scripture?


Isn't a good thing Judas did what he did?   Maybe if he hadn't done what he did, Jesus wouldn't have been crucified.
Isn't it a good thing Jesus was crucified?   
Imagine how lost we would be if He hadn't died for our sins.

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## Kevin007

*What About Hebrews 6?* Now we're ready to look at*  Hebrews 6:4-6*, a passage so often often cited in opposition to Eternal  Security. Please remember that the entire letter was written to Jewish believers  who were being enticed back into keeping the Law, so the context is New Covenant  vs. Old. (The reason this letter is in the Bible is that this is still going on  today, only now it concerns both Jews and Gentiles.)   In *Hebrews 6:1-3* the writer said that he was now going beyond the  elementary teachings concerning salvation  and in verse 9 he confirmed that he'd been talking about things that  accompany salvation. That tells us that verses 4-6 are not related to salvation  (Union) but to things that accompany it (Fellowship).  We know this because the idea that a believer could do something to  irretrievably lose his salvation is in direct contradiction to the clear promise  that the Holy Spirit is sealed within us from the very first moment of belief  until the day of our redemption.
 So what could these believers do that would be considered  falling away? Remember, they were Jews who had tasted the goodness of the word  of God and the powers of the coming age, the Church.  They were being admonished to return to the Old Covenant, to find  remedies for their ongoing sin in the daily sacrifices.  
 And what could prevent them from being restored?  Continuing to practice those remedies rather than simply confessing.  By doing so they'd be relegating the death of the Lord to the same status  as that of the twice-daily lamb. The Law was only a shadow of the good things to  come, not the realities themselves. Once the Reality appeared, the shadow was no  longer effective.  And what would be  their penalty? Loss of Fellowship. Living a defeated life, bearing no fruit, all  their works burned in the judgment of *1  Cor. 3*. But still saved? Yes. 
 So, the warning of * Hebrews 6* is against interrupting our Fellowship with God, not breaking our  Union with Him. The key is the phrase "renew again to repentance."  Those who relied on the daily sacrifice instead of confessing directly to  God were in effect crucifying the Lord all over again, since He is the Lamb of  God who takes away the sin of the world. The daily sacrifice was a foreshadowing  of Him, and when He came the shadow gave way to the reality. The old way was no  longer sufficient to restore them to fellowship. The modern application of this  is going back to relying on our own works to keep ourselves saved, instead of  trusting God to keep us.

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## Kevin007

https://www.raptureready.com/feature...ey/jack45.html

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## Kevin007

> Isn't a good thing Judas did what he did?   Maybe if he hadn't done what he did, Jesus wouldn't have been crucified.
> Isn't it a good thing Jesus was crucified?   
> Imagine how lost we would be if He hadn't died for our sins.


AMEN BROTHER Judas was def. not saved- committing the greatest sin ever, but God knew it beforehand and used it for good.

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## Christian Liberty

> I truly believe that when we accept Christ as our Savior, the Holy Spirit was working on our heart for a long time BEFORE we confessed Him as our Lord. ANY PERSON can go up to an alter call and lie to themselves and others- but not to God. He sees the heart. Staying in Gods "good graces" does not require constantly repenting every single sin. I bet almost anything all of us have sinned many times today WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING OR REPENTING; or we forget to repent- and guess what? Those sins are covered by the blood too.


I don't agree with TC's position, but I don't think you're representing it correctly.  TC isn't saying that if you sin you lose your salvation immediately unless you repent.  I think he's saying that a long time pattern of sin with a deliberate failure to repent can cause one to lose salvation.  I'm not sure if he thinks it depends on the sin.

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## Kevin007

> I don't agree with TC's position, but I don't think you're representing it correctly.  TC isn't saying that if you sin you lose your salvation immediately unless you repent.  I think he's saying that a long time pattern of sin with a deliberate failure to repent can cause one to lose salvation.  I'm not sure if he thinks it depends on the sin.


well, why would God leave us hanging? One sin is too many- One sin separates us from God, no? 2, 3, 30- where is the "line" drawn? exactly.............

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## Brett85

> Maintaining a good relationship, yes, but we are still in a relationship with Him. Does the Holy Spirit just get up and leave a Believer? Than come back again after you repent? Please show me in the Bible where this happened? Does a relationship with your friend end just because they had sinned against you? Does the relationship sever because of one unrepented sin? Of course not! How much more stronger is that bond with God? Esp. since the Believer has the Holy Spirit in them, who convicts them of that sin(s).


What do you think it means to get cut off from the vine and thrown into the fire?

John 15: 5-6

I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

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## Crashland

> AMEN BROTHER Judas was def. not saved- committing the greatest sin ever, but God knew it beforehand and used it for good.


How do you know that God doesn't already know that you will end up rejecting him in the future and therefore you couldn't have ever been saved even now?

There's no assurance. Because many people who end up "rejecting" God really did used to believe that they were saved just like you do now.

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## Kevin007

still waiting for someone to prove one Believer in the Bible who lost their salvation........

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## Kevin007

> How do you know that God doesn't already know that you will end up rejecting him in the future and therefore you couldn't have ever been saved even now?


say what? If your saved, obv. you have not rejected Him. If you reject Him you are not saved.

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## Brett85

> I don't agree with TC's position, but I don't think you're representing it correctly.  TC isn't saying that if you sin you lose your salvation immediately unless you repent.  I think he's saying that a long time pattern of sin with a deliberate failure to repent can cause one to lose salvation.


Yes, that's correct.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> Yes, that's correct.


In your view does it depend on the sin?  In your view is someone who has a swearing problem that he justifies and never really repents of just as lost as someone who does the same with serial murder?

I'm not sure it matters WRT the relative dangerousness of the position, but I'm curious.

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## Crashland

> say what? If your saved, obv. you have not rejected Him. If you reject Him you are not saved.


Ok, I'll put it another way. How do you know that you won't reject God in the future?

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## Kevin007

Hebrews 10 - Jesus  offered Himself without spot to God, the effect  of His sacrifice was *eternal*. V. 14: For by one offering He  hath *perfected for ever* them that are sanctified. Perfected for how long? He  hath perfected *for ever*. Why? Because the sacrifice is all-efficacious.

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## Kevin007

> Ok, I'll put it another way. How do you know that you won't reject God in the future?


Lots of reason, but let me ask you first, then I'll answer. 1. In the Bible has their ever been any account of what your question implies? 2. EVEN IF I did, where would the Holy Spirit then go, who is in me? 3. Thats like asking someone who won the jackpot to rip up their winning ticket (it will never happen).

----------


## Brett85

> In your view does it depend on the sin?  In your view is someone who has a swearing problem that he justifies and never really repents of just as lost as someone who does the same with serial murder?
> 
> I'm not sure it matters WRT the relative dangerousness of the position, but I'm curious.


I'm not sure.  But I just think it's a problem if someone claims to be a Christian and doesn't actually admit that they have sin.  Sinning itself is less of a problem than claiming that what you do isn't actually a sin.  I'm far from perfect and certainly sin, but when I fall short I don't try to change God's standards and say that there was nothing wrong with what I did.  I admit that I fail and do my best to improve in a certain area that I'm struggling with.  I don't really think that it's up to us to judge people and determine who's a Christian and who's not a Christian, and I wouldn't just automatically say that someone who has a swearing problem isn't a Christian.  But I think it's problematic when people who claim to be Christians don't recognize what sin is and when they try to defend their sinful actions.  I don't know for sure, but I think it's possible for such a person who engages in deliberate sin for a long period of time without repenting of it to lose their salvation, and of course it may be possible that such a person was never truly saved to begin with.  Either way, I think our actions matter, and not simply what we claim to believe.

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## Kevin007

I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.[/QUOTE]

not what you think But seriously this isn't talking about Believer's eternal security. Verse 6 is about *fellowship* with the Lord, not our eternal  salvation. This is confirmed in verse 7 where John mentioned having*  fellowship* with each other.

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## Kevin007

> How do you know that God doesn't already know that you will end up rejecting him in the future and therefore you couldn't have ever been saved even now?
> 
> There's no assurance. *Because many people who end up "rejecting" God really did used to believe that they were saved just like you do now.*


this is your opinion, no basis in truth and not one single example from the Bible.

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## Kevin007

if you are saved- you know it. The Spirit convicts you of sin, you don't run with the same crowd before you got saved, you are a new creature in Christ. The old man died, the new man lives etc etc...

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## Kevin007

I always see a disconnect with Non- Protestant's regarding salvation and sanctification. Your position with God (eternal) and your changing/sanctification/walk/fellowship while we are still sinners, in our flesh. The first does not change after you are saved- it is eternally static. Our Position in Christ is eternally perfect/strong. It is our walk, our process of sanctification that is ONGOING/CHANGING DAILY.... which only affects our FELLOWSHIP, not our SALVATION.

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## Brett85

It's talking about people who were on the vine who chose not to remain on the vine, who were thrown into the fire and burned.  The analogy is obvious.  It's saying that you can be on Christ's vine, but if you refuse to bear fruit or live out your faith, you will be cast off from the vine and thrown into the lake of fire.

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## Brett85

> if you are saved- you know it. The Spirit convicts you of sin, you don't run with the same crowd before you got saved, you are a new creature in Christ. The old man died, the new man lives etc etc...


I never claimed that you can't know that you're saved.

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## Brett85

> I always see a disconnect with Non- Protestant's regarding salvation and sanctification.


I'm actually a Protestant.  At least I've always attended a Baptist church.  But I've always been an independent thinker who doesn't believe that I just have to believe in everything my church believes in.  I think that every person should read and study the Bible for themselves and come up with their own theological views.  That's what I've done.  I think church tradition needs to be tossed out the window and shouldn't ever be a factor when we try to determine what the Bible actually teaches and what are the correct theological views.

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## Brett85

> It is our walk, our process of sanctification that is ONGOING/CHANGING DAILY.... which only affects our FELLOWSHIP, not our SALVATION.


And what if someone becomes saved and then refuses to engage in the sanctification process?

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## Kevin007

> I'm actually a Protestant.  At least I've always attended a Baptist church.  But I've always been an independent thinker who doesn't believe that I just have to believe in everything my church believes in.  I think that every person should read and study the Bible for themselves and come up with their own theological views.  That's what I've done.  I think church tradition needs to be tossed out the window and shouldn't ever be a factor when we try to determine what the Bible actually teaches and what are the correct theological views.


we agree there, friend

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## Crashland

> Lots of reason, but let me ask you first, then I'll answer. 1. In the Bible has their ever been any account of what your question implies? 2. EVEN IF I did, where would the Holy Spirit then go, who is in me? 3. Thats like asking someone who won the jackpot to rip up their winning ticket (it will never happen).


1. I'm not claiming there was an account. 2. If you did reject God in the future, then obviously you never had the Holy Spirit in you, right?




> if you are saved- you know it. The Spirit convicts you of sin, you don't run with the same crowd before you got saved, you are a new creature in Christ. The old man died, the new man lives etc etc...


This is EXACTLY how I felt several years ago.





> this is your opinion, no basis in truth and not one single example from the Bible.


I know this from the testimonies of millions of ex-Christians as well as my own personal experience. I know what I believed. It doesn't seem like there is anything I can say that would ever convince you of that. I guess if it happens to you, then you'll understand.

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## Miss Annie

> And what if someone becomes saved and then refuses to engage in the sanctification process?


Salvation is a gift.  A free gift.  The works that we do, are counted for as rewards, there is no applied grace, "but debt" - we have worked for God, he will "pay" us with rewards (this is mentioned many times is scripture).  

Ro 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Ro 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

But let us not ever forget that God disciplines his children.  Once we have believed and become sealed with the Spirit, we become sons (daughters).  Once we are God's children, he will work on us in his own ways.  God has ways of bringing us to our knees and reminding us that it behooves us to have a prayer life.  Sanctification is actually the work of the Holy Spirit. 

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

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## Kevin007

> What do you think it means to get cut off from the vine and thrown into the fire?
> 
> John 15: 5-6
> 
> I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.


Jesus is talking about doing things in Him, remaining attached to His grace and mercy. Things we do on our own (selfishly) have no value to Him.  They’re like a withered branch  that is burned in the fire.  So this passage is not about whether we can  lose our salvation.  It’s about whether the things we do as believers  have value to Him or not, our works will be tested and known.

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## Terry1

> Most of the scriptures having nothing to do with OSAS. Besides I can give you twice the amount proving OSAS.


You're actually saying that all of those scriptures telling you that you have the "hope of salvation"---and that "it might be"---are not saying something to you?

All of those scriptures are telling you that your salvation is conditional upon something.  You have to see for yourself just what that is.

I'd like to see "twice a many scriptures" that contradict these if you know which ones they are.

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## Terry1

> still waiting for someone to prove one Believer in the Bible who lost their salvation........


*Give evidence* of one believer the NT says *obtained eternal life in this life.*

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## Terry1

2 Timothy 2:10

Therefore *I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.*

The words "may obtain" in this scripture and context is very same as "might obtain", which also reconciles with the rest of scripture that says we have the "hope of salvation" and that "it might be".  Never is anyone given assurance of eternal life while in this life here and now.  We've already been though this same discussion in here before with others as well.

Why do you think that Paul is saying that the "elect" "may obtain" something the word "elect" indicates that they already have?  It's because they haven't finished this life yet and salvation is always conditional upon those who "endure till the end" of this life.  Only at that point can anyone be chosen by God or not or have eternal life or not.  This life is your proving ground for faith and the works of that same faith that glorify the Father in heaven and you are tested to the very end of it.

----------


## erowe1

> I don't agree with TC's position, but I don't think you're representing it correctly.  TC isn't saying that if you sin you lose your salvation immediately unless you repent.  I think he's saying that a long time pattern of sin with a deliberate failure to repent can cause one to lose salvation.  I'm not sure if he thinks it depends on the sin.


Every single sin is a long-time pattern of unrepentant sinning. Sins aren't instantaneous points. They are events that transpire over some amount of time. And in no case is some amount of sin little enough to be tolerable to the all holy God.

Any time any believer sins, let T be the amount of time that passes before they repent. T is always greater than zero, and no matter how long T is, there exists the possibility that they will repent at T + 1 millisecond.

The Book of Hebrews does talk about people who will not be able to repent in several passages. But in each of these passages it makes clear that these people are false believers who never had saving faith to begin with.

----------


## Terry1

> Salvation is a gift.  A free gift.  The works that we do, are counted for as rewards, there is no applied grace, "but debt" - we have worked for God, he will "pay" us with rewards (this is mentioned many times is scripture).


I respectfully disagree Annie.  Grace is the gift and we are given a very small element or "measure" of faith as babes that allow us to believe and grow in faith.  It's our choice to act upon our own faith in God by doing the good works that will glorify the Father in heaven. 

Matthew 5:16

Let your light so shine before men, that they *may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

* John 15:8

Herein is my *Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit*; so shall ye be my disciples.

Faith is our to keep and maintain through our good works.

James 2:14

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:17

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:18

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:20

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:22

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

James 2:24

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:26

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also






> Ro 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
> Ro 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


James 2:22

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, *and by works was faith made perfect*?





> But let us not ever forget that God disciplines his children.  Once we have believed and become sealed with the Spirit, we become sons (daughters).  Once we are God's children, he will work on us in his own ways.  God has ways of bringing us to our knees and reminding us that it behooves us to have a prayer life.  Sanctification is actually the work of the Holy Spirit.



We are not *once sealed always sealed* in the Holy Spirit.  We are only sealed as long as we walk in the spirit of the Lord.  Our free will allows us to go astray and never return.  Hebrews 6:4

 4 *For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

*5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, *to renew them again unto repentance; 

This scripture is telling you that people have and do fall from grace and lose their salvation in this life.

*


> 2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


You are only of the elect as long as you abide in Christ in this life.  No one is eternally chosen by God in this life.  It's impossible because we have not *finished this life yet.

Paul tells you here hour before his death and only at this point does Paul know he has finished his course and kept his faith to the very end of his life.

2 Timothy 4: 

6 *For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

*7 *I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

*8* Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day*: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

----------


## erowe1

TC, in the past you have said that you believe that God does predestine some people for Heaven, and that this predestination is based on his foreknowledge of their faith.

I assume, in light of what you're saying here, that what you really believe is that this is based on his foreknowledge of their saving faith, plus their perseverance and their ongoing repentance of sins until their death. Is that right?

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## Terry1

Hebrews 5:
10 *Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

*11 *Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

*12 *For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
*
*13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
*

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## Terry1

> TC, in the past you have said that you believe that God does predestine some people for Heaven, and that this predestination is based on his foreknowledge of their faith.
> 
> I assume, in light of what you're saying here, that what you really believe is that this is based on his foreknowledge of their saving faith, plus their perseverance and their ongoing repentance of sins until their death. Is that right?


By use of the very same scripture above that I have posted--God does not use His foreknowledge to make our choices for us.  He does not want puppets in heaven, but children who have chosen HIM.  God chooses us after this life--because we chose HIM while in this life and to the very end of it.

Any scripture using the word "Predestination", which btw is only four time throughout the entire Bible--it's always referring to a future event after this life.

Romans 8:29

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate *to be conformed to the image of his Son*, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


Romans 8:30

Moreover *whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

* Glorified *after this life*.

Ephesians 1:5

*Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

* *Our adoption/being chosen--has not happened in this life--this is a future event after we have been glorified*.

Ephesians 1:11

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance,* being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:*

It's impossible to be "glorified" in this life.  Our glorification happens after the first death and only if God has seen fit to choose us based upon the life we lived here and now.

----------


## Terry1

Definition of "glorification"

2. (n.) The state of being glorified; as, the glorification of Christ *after his resurrection*.

Despite the fact that one of the key verses ( Rom 8:30 ) *appears to place glorification in the past, it is in all other passages seen as future, to be hoped for* ( Rom 5:2 ; Col 1:27 ), to be revealed ( Rom 8:18 ; 1 Peter 5:1 ), and to be obtained ( 2 Thess 2:14 ; 2 Tim 2:10 ). Specifically, glorification arrives with the second coming of Christ ( Eph 5:27 ; Php 3:20-21 ; Col 3:4 ; 2 Thess 1:10 ), accompanied by the resurrection of believers ( 1 Cor 15:43 ) and the day of judgment ( Rom 2:5-10 ). Its duration is eternal ( 2 Col 4:17 ; 2 Tim 2:10 ; 1 Peter 5:10 ).

Like other facets of salvation, glorification is the work of God ( Rom 8:30 ). To it believers are called ( 1 Thess 2:12 ; 1 Peter 5:10 ), brought ( Heb 2:10 ), and foreordained ( 1 Cor 2:7 ). *God both prepares us for glory* ( Rom 9:23 ) *and prepares glory for us* ( 1 Cor 2:9 ). It is ours by inheritance ( Rom 8:17 ). At the same time, however, we have our part to play: glorification should be sought ( Rom 2:7 ), and it will be wrought in us through our affliction and suffering ( Rom 8:17 ; 2 Col 4:17 ; 2 Tim 2:10-11 ).

Glorification involves first of all the believer's sanctification or moral perfection ( 2 Thess 2:13-14 ; Heb 2:10-11 ), in which the believer will be made glorious, holy, and blameless ( Eph 5:27 ). The process of sanctification is at work in us now ( 2 Cor 3:18 ) but moves from one degree of glory to another until it reaches *final glory.
*
Second, the body participates in glorification ( Rom 8:23 ; 1 Col 15:43 ; Php 3:21 ), which is the believer's deliverance and liberty *( Rom 8:21 ). As a result, the glorified body is immortal* ( Rom 2:7 ),* imperishable, powerful, and spiritual* ( 1 Cor 15:43-44 ). Moreover, creation itself participates in this aspect of glorification ( Rom 8:21 ).

In the third place, glorification brings participation in the kingdom of God ( 1 Thess 2:12 ), even to the point of our reigning with Christ ( 2 Tim 2:10-12 ).

Finally, glorification is in some sense a partaking of God's own glory ( Rom 5:2 ; 1 Thess 2:12 ; 2 Thess 2:14 ; 1 Peter 5:10 ).


Only after this life can our "glorification" happen and only after this life does God choose us and only after this life can we not be snatched out of the Father's hands.  Because after this life is what we are Predestined "to be"--"glorified" with the Father in heaven.

What many of you are believing in and practicing by believing that you've already obtained eternal glory is "self-glorification" which is not of God.  You've presumed upon God and chosen yourselves based upon your own very flawed understanding of His word.

What we are given in this life is the "hope of salvation" which is conditional upon "continually walking in the spirit of the Lord".  We are only "sealed" in Christ in this dark corrupt world as long as we continually abide in Christ.  Because we have a free will--and in these corrupt bodies of flesh and bone--we are always vulnerable to temptation and can fall away and choose not to return to Christ as Hebrews 6:4 tells you.

Paul is telling what to do and not to do here because we most certainly have a choice to either walk in the Spirit or not.
*Galatians 5:16

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.*

25 **If* we live in the Spirit*, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

So does it mean because they chose not to walk in the Spirit and never return that they were "never saved"?  No--it means that they made a conscious choice to walk away and that they were once sealed--they were once saved--they were once elect and chose to abandon Christ.  People do walk away and never return.  And again--Hebrews 6:4 tells us that it's most certainly possible.

With prayer and seeking--read the "Parable of the Sower"--here lies the key to understanding why some fall away and why others do not.

----------


## Terry1

*Luke 8:13: Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; they believe only for a time and fall away in time of trial.

1 Corinthians 9:27: I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.*

Apostle Paul himself never once presumed upon God that he was among the chosen---why?  Because Paul being one of the most faithful men of God knew that he had not finished his course and life yet.

2 Timothy 4: 6 For *I am now ready to be offered*, and the time of my departure is at hand.

7 *I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
*
8 *Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness*, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

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## Terry1

> *Luke 8:13: Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; they believe only for a time and fall away in time of trial.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 9:27: I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.*
> 
> Apostle Paul himself never once presumed upon God that he was among the chosen---why?  Because Paul being one of the most faithful men of God knew that he had not finished his course and life yet.
> 
> 2 Timothy 4: 6 For *I am now ready to be offered*, and the time of my departure is at hand.
> 
> 7 *I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
> ...



This is not our time in this life to sit back and relax thinking our work is finished here on earth or that we can not be "snatched out of the Fathers hands".  Our work began at confession--it didn't end there.  Our journey in repentance began at confession it didn't end there. You are sealed only as long as you continue to abide in Christ and choose to remain there.

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## lilymc

> This is not our time in this life to sit back and relax thinking our work is finished here on earth...


No true believer is doing that.  In fact, no one with any sense at all is doing that.  All you have is straw man arguments and completely misinterpreted scriptures, many of which have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Also, you still haven't answered questions and points posted to you.  Copying and pasting large chunks of text of misapplied scriptures is not having a dialogue, it's an online  soliloquy.

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## Terry1

> No true believer is doing that.  In fact, no one with any sense at all is doing that.  All you have is straw man arguments and completely misinterpreted scriptures, many of which have nothing to do with the topic at hand.
> 
> Also, you still haven't answered questions and points posted to you.  Copying and pasting large chunks of text of misapplied scriptures is not having a dialogue, it's an online  soliloquy.


Sorry Lily, but I have no idea what "points and questions" you're talking about.  Regarding any "straw man" or if there is one, is also relative to the reader.  Also regarding another accusation that I've "misapplied scriptures", is again--relative to the reader who supports my POV or doesn't.  Then again, you claim that I'm not "on topic".  That doesn't seem to be true either as I have tried my best to stay on topic with everything I've posted.  I apologize if there's something I've said that upset you enough to carry on like this.

Do you have a question or point to make other than the obvious?  I'd be happy to try and answer the best I can, but so far--I haven't seen anything that denotes a question or a point from you.

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## lilymc

> Sorry Lily, but I have no idea what "points and questions" you're talking about.  Regarding any "straw man" or if there is one, is also relative to the reader.  Also regarding another accusation that I've "misapplied scriptures", is again--relative to the reader who supports my POV or doesn't.  Then again, you claim that I'm not "on topic".  That doesn't seem to be true either as I have tried my best to stay on topic with everything I've posted.  I apologize if there's something I've said that upset you enough to carry on like this.
> 
> Do you have a question or point to make other than the obvious?  I'd be happy to try and answer the best I can, but so far--I haven't seen anything that denotes a question or a point from you.


No worries if you missed them.  I'll just post the links for you, instead of rewriting the posts.   

The point that Jesus' words "I never knew you" clearly indicate that those people were NEVER His, were never truly saved. *Post #104*

The question: since the bible is clear that true believers receive the gift of eternal life, so if they later reject God and "lose their salvation" then was that life they received eternal?  Or temporary?   *#Post 31* (about half way down)

In response to the claim, "God won't leave us, but we can leave Him"  *  Post #87*

The point that the word "saved" is meaningless, if we have to get "re-saved" after every sin or else face hell. *Post #114*

There's another point I would like for you to address, but that is enough for the moment.

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## lilymc

> Regarding any "straw man" or if there is one, is also relative to the reader.


No, they are not  relative.  Your statements are either straw man arguments or they are not.  

There have been too many to list, but to give you one example, your implication that people who support OSAS don't agree with works and believe it's fine to sit around all day doing nothing, and stagnate.  Or the implication that OSAS means it's OK to live a life of sin or that that is what people want to do because they think they have a "license to sin."

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## Terry1

> No, they are not  relative.  Your statements are either straw man arguments or they are not.  
> 
> There have been too many to list, but to give you one example, your implication that people who support OSAS don't agree with works and believe it's fine to sit around all day doing nothing, and stagnate.  Or the implication that OSAS means it's OK to live a life of sin or that that is what people want to do because they think they have a "license to sin."


Lily, can I ask you how I've made a "straw man argument" when I have tried to back up everything I've said with scripture?  Then you complain because I'm posting too much scripture all at once.  

The grouping of scripture I posted was to prove a point--and that was just how many scriptures there are that support "the hope" and "might be".  Now if I'd had just told you that without posting them--I suppose you'd be telling me that isn't so as well. Now I'd love to make you happy, but it seems that because we disagree on this topic that's not going to happen.  

I would greatly appreciate it if you'd stick to what the posts are saying and address that instead of tearing them and me apart with all of these accusations and personal attacks.  Thanks.

Peace in Christ.

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## Terry1

> No worries if you missed them.  I'll just post the links for you, instead of rewriting the posts.   
> 
> The point that Jesus' words "I never knew you" clearly indicate that those people were NEVER His, were never truly saved. *Post #104*
> 
> The question: since the bible is clear that true believers receive the gift of eternal life, so if they later reject God and "lose their salvation" then was that life they received eternal?  Or temporary?   *#Post 31* (about half way down)
> 
> In response to the claim, "God won't leave us, but we can leave Him"  *  Post #87*
> 
> The point that the word "saved" is meaningless, if we have to get "re-saved" after every sin or else face hell. *Post #114*
> ...


Yes--LOL--that is enough and more than I can address tonight. I feel that I have already addressed these things you are asking here.   I have to get everyone fed and taken care of here tonight.  I'm sorry, but I just don't have the time because you have asked a lot here that takes more than one or two lines of dialogue.  I will get to these as soon as possible.  That might be tomorrow sometime.  It may also be a case where I direct you to another thread or post where I've already addressed the same issue too.

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## Kevin007

> *Give evidence* of one believer the NT says *obtained eternal life in this life.*


every Believer in the NT. Jesus said believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be SAVED.

The precious blood of Jesus      washes our sins away    forever (1st Peter 1:18,19; Revelation 1:5; Hebrews 9:12,24).

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## Kevin007

*Keep in mind, when Jesus died on the Cross for our sins- all our sins were still yet future. He died while we were still sinners. Jesus' sacrifice was a once for all time perfect sacrifice. The moment you trust(ed) Jesus as your Savior, your  responsibility as a sinner having to do with the God of judgment is ended for  eternity, but that same moment your responsibility as a child having to do with  a Father in heaven begins. Now if as a child you should sin against your Father,  God will have to deal with you about that, but as a father and not as a judge. He will never forsake or leave you. Your salvation is not depending upon YOU, but wholly upon Jesus. Jesus secured our eternal salvation.


“Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun  a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.” (Phil 1:6)


The Holy Spirit never leaves a Believer. If at times we are willful and did not immediately bow before God and repent, then we find we have to come under the rod of a loving Father. He chastens us until we come to the place where we are ready to confess our failures and be restored to fellowship with Him. But we are just as truly His child while getting chastised. Your child doesn't stop being your child when you have him over your knee.*

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## lilymc

> Yes--LOL--that is enough and more than I can address tonight. I feel that I have already addressed these things you are asking here.   I have to get everyone fed and taken care of here tonight.  I'm sorry, but I just don't have the time because you have asked a lot here that takes more than one or two lines of dialogue.  I will get to these as soon as possible.  That might be tomorrow sometime.  It may also be a case where I direct you to another thread or post where I've already addressed the same issue too.


I understand.  I know that these types of debates are time consuming, and sometimes I too don't get to each and every reply.  And posting a link to a different thread works for me.   




> every Believer in the NT. Jesus said believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be SAVED.


And praise God for that!   I'm glad that justification is a one time thing, and that we can trust God's promises, instead of our own works.  That takes the worry and focus off of ourselves so we can have a relationship with God and let Him transform us into the person He created us to be.  

I have to say.... it took me a while to finally "get" this, but I have learned that it is actually very liberating to fully surrender to God, and to just let Him be God...because I know that He is much better at being my boss than I am at being my own boss.

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## Kevin007

> This is not our time in this life to sit back and relax thinking our work is finished here on earth or that we can not be "snatched out of the Fathers hands".  Our work began at confession--it didn't end there.  Our journey in repentance began at confession it didn't end there. *You are sealed only as long as you continue to abide in Christ* and choose to remain there.


NO. You are sealed forever, regardless. The Holy Spirit seals us, we don't seal ourselves. If you are basing your salvation on YOUR performance you fail every time. Your salvation isn't dependent upon you- it could never be- because you are not perfect- and never will be until you are in Heaven. Jesus took care of it all at the Cross.

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## Terry1

> NO. You are sealed forever, regardless. The Holy Spirit seals us, we don't seal ourselves. If you are basing your salvation on YOUR performance you fail every time. Your salvation isn't dependent upon you- it could never be- because you are not perfect- and never will be until you are in Heaven. Jesus took care of it all at the Cross.


Hebrews 6:4 and John 15:5- tell you that this is not true and unbiblical.  Paul and James also tell you the same thing.  I've already posted those scriptures multiple times in this thread that you've chosen to avoid and not address.

Your belief causes scripture to contradict itself and we know that can not be true.

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## Terry1

> I'm glad you brought that up, because that is one of the best passages to show that once we're saved, we're saved.
> 
> Two points....
> 
> 1)  Jesus said, "I *never* knew you."    If the person was at one time truly saved and a true child of God, then Jesus would have known them.
> 
>  He would have said, "I once knew you, but I no longer know you."
> 
> But what did He say?  He said, *"I never knew you."*       How much more plain and clear can it be?     He is flat out saying that they were never His!
> ...


Answering your first question.

"I never knew you"--God is in the business of "blotting" things and people out that He chooses to "remember no more".  Just as His word tells us that He can "blot out our sin as if they never were" here:* Isaiah 43: 25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.*

God can does do the same with people whom He choose not to remember for their transgressions against Him and His son Jesus Christ as referenced here:

Revelation 3:5

*5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.*

We are told that people are cut off and burned away from the true Vine/Jesus for bearing no fruit/works.  You have to be part of the True Vine before you can be cut off and burned away from it.  John 15:5  They are then blotted out as if they never were and remembered no more by God.  Hence Jesus telling them He "never knew them"--even after they cast out devils and did many works in His name--because they did these things absent the Spirit of the Lord--being absent the Spirit of the Lord--means He never knew them or their works.  Even after confessing belief in the Lord Jesus--Jesus still told them "He never knew them".  That's something for you and Kevin to think about as well.

Hebrews 6:4 again clearly tells you that they were once partakers of the Holy Spirit--they fell away and then God turned them over to reprobates--being they would not return to Him.  These are "blotted out" of the Book of Life when God will not allow them to return to or be "renewed to repentance"--repentance being the only way back to God when we stumble in faith.  Without having the ability to repent any longer--they are cut off and burned--to be remembered no more and blotted from the Book of Life.

Romans 1:27 also gives reference to those God turns over to reprobates and a list of offenses that qualifies them for death and being filled with His wrath.  Being they didn't believe in repentance--they were turned over to their own strong delusions.

Kevin is the one who has stated that "we don't need to repent of anything after confession".

Post #31 that you give reference to was your reply to Kevin, I see nothing there directed towards me.  So this is something I didn't refuse to answer.

Post # 87 I have already addressed in this thread--many times.  Also, that post was directed towards jmdrake by you--not to me.  So again, this isn't something that I refused to answer that you directed towards me.

Post # 114 seems more like a rant rather than questions or points.


Finally Lily and Kevin--you have to understand why the Apostle Paul would say something as this even about himself.

*1 Corinthians 9:27: I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.
*

Why then would one of the greatest Apostles of God fear that he might be disqualified for salvation in this life?  You and Kevin both need to study the word of God in prayer.  These *gut* feelings are not sufficient enough to give evidence of the truth in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  The word must be studied in prayer and seeking.  That's my best advice to both of you and those who agree with you also.

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## Terry1

> every Believer in the NT. Jesus said believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be SAVED.
> 
> The precious blood of Jesus      washes our sins away    forever (1st Peter 1:18,19; Revelation 1:5; Hebrews 9:12,24).



Do you not think that the very people Jesus told that "he never knew them" hadn't already confessed belief in the name of Jesus?  They were doing works in His name--casting out devils--healing the sick.  So why would Jesus tell them He never knew them after they had confessed belief and did these works in His name?  There is power in the name of Jesus alone that can accomplish miracles all by itself.

You need to understand with fear and trembling, just what is expected of us as children of the Living God and that confession of belief alone is not what saves anyone.

There's a reason--I've already answered this.  Seek and you will find--knock and the door to understanding will be answered.

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> I understand.  I know that these types of debates are time consuming, and sometimes I too don't get to each and every reply.  And posting a link to a different thread works for me.   
> 
> 
> 
> And praise God for that!   I'm glad that justification is a one time thing, and that we can trust God's promises, instead of our own works.  That takes the worry and focus off of ourselves so we can have a relationship with God and let Him transform us into the person He created us to be.  
> 
> I have to say.... it took me a while to finally "get" this, but I have learned that it is actually very liberating to fully surrender to God, and to just let Him be God...because I know that He is much better at being my boss than I am at being my own boss.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to lilymc again.

Have you read Puritan writings?  They are steeped in the doctrine of eternal security for those regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and give practical examples of living lives of surrender to the Holy Spirit.  Romans 8:38 and surrounding verses convinced me of Christ's promise to keep His own, along with John 17.

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> NO. You are sealed forever, regardless. The Holy Spirit seals us, we don't seal ourselves. If you are basing your salvation on YOUR performance you fail every time. Your salvation isn't dependent upon you- it could never be- because you are not perfect- and never will be until you are in Heaven. Jesus took care of it all at the Cross.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Kevin007 again.

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## Terry1

Those believing in OSAS--again--I ask you this question if anyone of you chooses to answer this.

1 Corinthians 9:27: I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

Why would the very same Apostle you believe has told you that you can not lose your salvation after confession of belief in this life--"*fear*" that he himself could also lose his in this life?

Is Paul contradicting himself--or are you not understanding his entire message to believers?

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## Eagles' Wings

> Those believing in OSAS--again--I ask you this question if anyone of you chooses to answer this.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 9:27: I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.
> 
> Why would the very same Apostle you believe has told you that you can not lose your salvation after confession of belief in this life--"*fear*" that he himself could also lose his in this life?
> 
> Is Paul contradicting himself--or are you not understanding his entire message to believers?


A couple of commentaries suggest that Paul is refering to his preaching gift, and absolutley not to his salvation in Christ.  I just did a quick google on that verse.

Other cross references in my bible, confirm Paul's utmost committment to putting to death what is earthly, the deeds of the body.  All regenerated believers must do the same, always giving thanks to God for His help in keeping believers, forever.

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## Terry1

> A couple of commentaries suggest that Paul is refering to his preaching gift, and absolutley not to his salvation in Christ.  I just did a quick google on that verse.
> 
> Other cross references in my bible, confirm Paul's utmost committment to putting to death what is earthly, the deeds of the body.  All regenerated believers must do the same, always giving thanks to God for His help in keeping believers, forever.


Please note the entire context of that scripture though.  Here it says, KJV version also

1 Corinthians 9:25 *And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible*.

26* I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

*27 *But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


*

Paul is referring to a "corruptible crown" vs an "incorruptible crown".  These are crowns of salvation and glory.  I doubt seriously in fact I know that this is not referring to his "preaching gift", but to his crown of salvation.

This scripture also reconciles with Paul's words upon the time of his death--understanding he now knows he had *endured to the end of his life* and *kept the faith*

2 Timothy 4: 6 *For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at* hand. 7 *I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness,* which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Here in Timothy--upon Paul's death again he refers to his "crown of righteousness* and that now he knows he has received it---while in Corinthians he did not say the same thing, but was in fear that he too might be disqualified or "castaway" because he had not yet finished this life--nor did he know what the future would hold for him at that point pertaining to his faith.  In Timothy here--he knows his death is upon him and he has kept his faith to the very end and now he knows that he's received his crown.

1 Corinthians 9:27 is referring to his "crown" not his preaching gift.

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## Terry1

Brothers and sisters in Christ--know that this is not to prove anyone wrong or to be used in such a way to condemn the brethren, but to enlighten you and to bring you to a fuller understanding of Gods word and to allow you to see the truth in the Gospel of Jesus Christ who most certainly wants you to understand His word for your own spiritual benefit towards the hope of salvation in the next life. God is not the author of confusion, but the God of love, mercy and wisdom to those who seek it with a whole heart.

Walk in the Spirit of the Lord--repent and be forgiven when we stumble in faith.  Those who choose Christ will always be drawn back to Him.  You can rest in the knowledge and wisdom that as long as you choose the will of God and walk in the Spirit of the Lord you are safe from evil.  Unfortunately for us--we are free men and women in Christ with the freedom to choose at any given point and time throughout our lives as to whom we will serve.  Do not be deceived into thinking you are above temptation in this dark world.  For if the greatest Apostles and Prophets also knew of this possibility to be castaway or be disqualified--we must also understand that it's possible for us as well.

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## Eagles' Wings

What is paramount for me is that God is faithful.

True, He does not confuse.

Indeed, all who are born-again in the Spirit, know that we face temptation and sin and that all sin is serious.   "The one and only sin that is unpardonable, is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and Christians will never commit this sin because of the restraining grace of God". (RC Sproul)

Please consider the following article:

http://www.samstorms.com/all-article...-disqualified-

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## Terry1

> What is paramount for me is that God is faithful.
> 
> True, He does not confuse.
> 
> Indeed, all who are born-again in the Spirit, know that we face temptation and sin and that all sin is serious.   "The one and only sin that is unpardonable, is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and Christians will never commit this sin because of the restraining grace of God". (RC Sproul)
> 
> Please consider the following article:
> 
> http://www.samstorms.com/all-article...-disqualified-


Thank you Louise, but I'd also like you to read the message of salvation from the ancient church teachings that have never changed since the days of Christ on earth and the early Apostles.

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/how-are-we-saved

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## Eagles' Wings

> Thank you Louise, but I'd also like you to read the message of salvation from the ancient church teachings that have never changed since the days of Christ on earth and the early Apostles.
> 
> http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/how-are-we-saved


What do think of the following?  IMHO, one must conclude that the holy ones listed here were clear that regeneration leads to faith, leads to justification, leads to sanctification, leads to glorification.  

http://www.apuritansmind.com/justifi...tthew-mcmahon/

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## Terry1

> What do think of the following?  IMHO, one must conclude that the holy ones listed here were clear that regeneration leads to faith, leads to justification, leads to sanctification, leads to glorification.  
> 
> http://www.apuritansmind.com/justifi...tthew-mcmahon/


This is where I follow Louise--the very word of God and James an oracle of God himself, which btw are the exact same teachings of the ancient church to this day.  The Gospel has been preserved by this church and the teachings of the very Apostles of Christ.

This is what James is telling us that does reconcile with all of NT scripture harmoniously--

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 

*24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.* 

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We can not ignore what James is saying here, nor can we change what he's saying to support whatever one chooses to believe otherwise.  James is telling us that our faith and our works go hand in hand--just the same as Grace and Faith go hand in hand.  One without the other makes both of no effect.  The same with our faith and works--they go hand in hand--one without the other makes them both of no effect.

So then we can safely say that faith is nothing without our good works and just the same--our good works are nothing without faith.  One without the other means that they're both dead--being our faith and works.

So then there's no way that we can possibly be justified without both faith and the good works that naturally follow faith.  We can not be lights and examples without our good works that follow our faith.  We are called to do these--commanded by God to do these and told by Jesus Himself that it's the only way we can glorify the Father in heaven.  How can we love God and our neighbors as ourselves if we do nothing in response to our belief and faith?

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## Eagles' Wings

"The relationship of faith and good works is one that may be distinguished but never separated.  Though our good works add no merit to our faith before God, and though the sole condition of our justification is our faith in Christ, if good works do not follow from our profession of faith, it is a clear indication that we do not possess justifying faith. The Reformed formula, 'We are justified by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone.'"    (RC Sproul)

True justification always results in sanctification.  (RC Sproul)

This is what I believe Holy Scripture teaches and what many of the early church Fathers believed as well.    

I must be finished now, Terry, as I've been on much longer than I'd like.

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## Kevin007

> This is where I follow Louise--the very word of God and James an oracle of God himself, which btw are the exact same teachings of the ancient church to this day.  The Gospel has been preserved by this church and the teachings of the very Apostles of Christ.
> 
> This is what James is telling us that does reconcile with all of NT scripture harmoniously--
> 
> 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 
> 
> 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 
> 
> 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 
> ...


I'll go into detail asap, but you just don't get it. Our salvation isn't dependent on our performance or our works (of faith).

God the Father doesn't look at the Believer as a sinner, once they are saved and trust Him and His work at the Cross. Jesus imputes His righteousness to all Believers. Any works after we are saved do not determine our salvation, as that question is settled forever. What does matter in the future still is how much each of us lives out our faith. No Believer has NO FRUIT. All of us have some. What Jesus started in us, He finishes- he does not lose one sheep. You see Terry- this is key- the sheep wander off- go astray- it is the sheeps decision to wander away from the Shepard, but like the Word says Jesus- the good shepard loses not even ONE SHEEP. Do you understand?

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## Kevin007

> Hebrews 6:4 and John 15:5- tell you that this is not true and unbiblical.  Paul and James also tell you the same thing.  I've already posted those scriptures multiple times in this thread that you've chosen to avoid and not address.
> 
> Your belief causes scripture to contradict itself and we know that can not be true.


I have posted refutations on these verses- you chose not to look...

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## Kevin007

> Do you not think that the very people Jesus told that "he *never* knew them" hadn't already confessed belief in the name of Jesus?  They were doing works in His name--casting out devils--healing the sick.  So why would Jesus tell them He never knew them after they had confessed belief and did these works in His name?  There is power in the name of Jesus alone that can accomplish miracles all by itself.
> 
> You need to understand with fear and trembling, just what is expected of us as children of the Living God and that confession of belief alone is not what saves anyone.
> 
> There's a reason--I've already answered this.  Seek and you will find--knock and the door to understanding will be answered.


He NEVER KNEW them, so obv. they were NEVER SAVED. You don't get any simpler than that! The were false PREACHERS. How many believers go around casting out devils, healing the sick?

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## Kevin007

> A couple of commentaries suggest that Paul is refering to his preaching gift, and absolutley not to his salvation in Christ.  I just did a quick google on that verse.
> 
> Other cross references in my bible, confirm Paul's utmost committment to putting to death what is earthly, the deeds of the body.  All regenerated believers must do the same, always giving thanks to God for His help in keeping believers, forever.


exactly.

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## lilymc

> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to lilymc again.
> 
> Have you read Puritan writings?  They are steeped in the doctrine of eternal security for those regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and give practical examples of living lives of surrender to the Holy Spirit.  Romans 8:38 and surrounding verses convinced me of Christ's promise to keep His own, along with John 17.


Thank you for the +rep thought anyway. 

No, I haven't read the Puritan writings, but I'll look into that.      

And yes, I posted Romans 8:38 a few times. It is sad to me that some here are ignoring that, when it is so very clear.

Thanks Louise!





> I'll go into detail asap, but you just don't get it. Our salvation isn't dependent on our performance or our works (of faith).
> 
> God the Father doesn't look at the Believer as a sinner, once they are saved and trust Him and His work at the Cross. Jesus imputes His righteousness to all Believers. Any works after we are saved do not determine our salvation, as that question is settled forever. What does matter in the future still is how much each of us lives out our faith. No Believer has NO FRUIT. All of us have some. What Jesus started in us, He finishes- he does not lose one sheep. You see Terry- this is key- the sheep wander off- go astray- it is the sheeps decision to wander away from the Shepard, but like the Word says Jesus- the good shepard loses not even ONE SHEEP. Do you understand?


Yes and that is so basic.   It is truly frightening to me that certain big churches go against the very basics of Christianity.  

Totally missing the point, and putting the cart WAY before the horse.  In fact, completely ignoring the horse.

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## Kevin007

> Yeah, and I *definitely knew* that I had the Holy Spirit in me for years. I was as sure of that as the sun coming up tomorrow. And yet today I'm an atheist. As much as you might not like to think so, most ex-Christians really were convinced that they had the Holy Spirit dwelling in them during the time they were Christians.


so you felt the Spirit leave you?

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## Christian Liberty

> Brothers and sisters in Christ--*know that this is not to prove anyone wrong* or to be used in such a way to condemn the brethren, but to enlighten you and to bring you to a fuller understanding of Gods word and to allow you to see the truth in the Gospel of Jesus Christ who most certainly wants you to understand His word for your own spiritual benefit towards the hope of salvation in the next life. God is not the author of confusion, but the God of love, mercy and wisdom to those who seek it with a whole heart.
> 
> Walk in the Spirit of the Lord--repent and be forgiven when we stumble in faith.  Those who choose Christ will always be drawn back to Him.  You can rest in the knowledge and wisdom that as long as you choose the will of God and walk in the Spirit of the Lord you are safe from evil.  Unfortunately for us--we are free men and women in Christ with the freedom to choose at any given point and time throughout our lives as to whom we will serve.  Do not be deceived into thinking you are above temptation in this dark world.  For if the greatest Apostles and Prophets also knew of this possibility to be castaway or be disqualified--we must also understand that it's possible for us as well.


Yeah, because in RPFs religion subforum there can be no absolute truth.  We can absolutely assert that liberals, conservatives, neoconservatives, police, soldiers, IRS workers, etc. are absolutely wrong, but in theological matters, the only absolute statements we can make (if that) is that Calvinism is evil

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## Crashland

> so you felt the Spirit leave you?


No, that's not how it works. When you convert to Christianity, or any religion I suppose, the experience that you feel is a very real thing. When you come out of the faith, you aren't denying that you experienced what you did, and it's not like you are undoing the experience. Rather, it is a realization that your ongoing experience, as moving and as convincing as it was at the time, might not have been what you thought it was. It's the realization that, if you believe in the Christian message, you are likely to have a powerful and convincing experience regardless of whether it is actually true. Who wouldn't? When you think and live as if it were true, everything feeds in through that filter and cognitive bias, reinforcing it. So it's not like you feel the spirit leave you - I don't believe that, anymore. It is simply changing your analysis of what it was that you did experience and used to be so convinced about.

As a Christian, have you ever gone through periods where you feel distant from God, or gone through periods of doubt? I would imagine just about every Christian has. Sometimes you recover and get rid of whatever it was that was getting between you and God. But if you don't, that's what falling away is. You become so distant and so doubtful to the point where you just realize that if you are going to be honest with yourself, you have to admit you just don't believe it anymore. It can be a very painful process if you try very hard to hold onto your beliefs but are unable to.

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## Terry1

> Yeah, because in RPFs religion subforum there can be no absolute truth.  We can absolutely assert that liberals, conservatives, neoconservatives, police, soldiers, IRS workers, etc. are absolutely wrong, but in theological matters, the only absolute statements we can make (if that) is that Calvinism is evil


Calvinism isn't of God--so what would you call it FF?

Luther demonized the book of James because Luther saw that James Epistle was incompatible with Luther's interpretation of Paul's Epistles to the Romans and Galatians. 

He rightly figured that something had to give, and it made more sense to dispense with James one Epistle than with all of Paul's writings. John Calvin would likely have rejected James as well, but he realized that something more important was at stake-- the integrity of the canon of Scripture. Calvin recognized that if Protestants threw out James, then it would be a free-for-all with the canon, which would demolish Sola Scriptura. So Calvin came up with an last ditch effort by adding the word "alone" to James 2:24 and thus (temporarily) saving both key doctrines of Scripture Alone and Justification by Faith Alone.

These two men did more damage to the body of Christ in their fight against the Catholic church than any others.  Their battle against the Papacy of Rome was so intense that they lost their minds and thought that they must toss out the baby with the bathwater because "if one facet of the church was wrong--it all had to be wrong".  So they *rewrote* by their own interpretations the book of James and added to and took away what they chose to reconcile what they believed to be true instead of realizing why what they believed didn't reconcile with the Books of Romans and Galatians.  To this very day Calvinists are saying that "all doesn't mean all" and that "world doesn't mean world" and that "dead faith" doesn't mean that our faith can die.  When if they had understood scripture at all in the first place would know that they didn't have to change one word to reconcile what the books of the Old and New testaments are saying.  They all completely reconcile with each other without having to tamper with any words at all.

Whatever practices and traditions of the Catholic church these Protestants didn't agree with led them to believe that because they thought these were wrong--the church as a whole was wrong--when they were indeed not wrong about the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  This is what Calvin and Luther changed and wrote their own version of James to support their Protestant doctrines.

Calvin and Luther's hatred for the church of Rome dominated their love, honor and respect for the word of God--hence they didn't just separate themselves from the Papacy of Rome--they separated themselves from the truth in the Gospel of our Lord being driven by pure hatred instead of love.

The problem is here is that this is where many Christians fail to understand that the one who intercedes on our behalf that allows us to rightly divide the word of God is the Holy Spirit.  The people have followed doctrines and churches instead--hence they have not walked in the Spirit of the Lord and allowed themselves to become indoctrinated by these instead of enlightened by the Spirit of the Lord.

"The Perseverance of the saints" doctrine is straight from the bowels of hell and not of God.  This doctrine can not and does not reconcile with Paul's, James, John's, Hebrews or Revelation and more.  This teaching is so out of sink with scripture that it is amazing that so many Christians actually believe this, which is frightening all by itself.

No one is eternally secure in this life and no where does Paul or any of the books teach this if scripture is understood as it should be.  We are only sealed as long as we walk in the spirit of the Lord *in this life* and endure to the very end of this life.  Those are the conditions upon having any hope of being glorified--chosen--adopted--predestined--elected in the next life.  Everything we do in this life and how closely we walk with God in the Spirit determines our eternal destiny in the next life.

This is why Calvin's doctrine of Predestination has to dispense with the "free will"--because the element of *choice* doesn't fit with his interpretation of scripture.  This is why Calvin had to change scripture to support his version as well as Luther did the same thing.

Their blind hatred for the Papacy of Rome also blinded them to the truth as well because had either one of these men or any of the reformers understood the word of God--they would have never allowed this heresy to influence them against the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Had any of them been walking in the Spirit of the Lord they would have seen that Jacob Arminius is one of the few of them who actually had a spiritual clue.

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## Terry1

> Calvinism isn't of God--so what would you call it FF?
> 
> Luther demonized the book of James because Luther saw that James Epistle was incompatible with Luther's interpretation of Paul's Epistles to the Romans and Galatians. 
> 
> He rightly figured that something had to give, and it made more sense to dispense with James one Epistle than with all of Paul's writings. John Calvin would likely have rejected James as well, but he realized that something more important was at stake-- the integrity of the canon of Scripture. Calvin recognized that if Protestants threw out James, then it would be a free-for-all with the canon, which would demolish Sola Scriptura. So Calvin came up with an last ditch effort by adding the word "alone" to James 2:24 and thus (temporarily) saving both key doctrines of Scripture Alone and Justification by Faith Alone.
> 
> These two men did more damage to the body of Christ in their fight against the Catholic church than any others.  Their battle against the Papacy of Rome was so intense that they lost their minds and thought that they must toss out the baby with the bathwater because "if one facet of the church was wrong--it all had to be wrong".  So they *rewrote* by their own interpretations the book of James and added to and took away what they chose to reconcile what they believed to be true instead of realizing why what they believed didn't reconcile with the Books of Romans and Galatians.  To this very day Calvinists are saying that "all doesn't mean all" and that "world doesn't mean world" and that "dead faith" doesn't mean that our faith can die.  When if they had understood scripture at all in the first place would know that they didn't have to change one word to reconcile what the books of the Old and New testaments are saying.  They all completely reconcile with each other without having to tamper with any words at all.
> 
> Whatever practices and traditions of the Catholic church these Protestants didn't agree with led them to believe that because they thought these were wrong--the church as a whole was wrong--when they were indeed not wrong about the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  This is what Calvin and Luther changed and wrote their own version of James to support their Protestant doctrines.
> ...


Calvin and Luther's oppressive laws against anyone who went against their doctrines was as murderous, tortuous and cruel as they accused the Catholics of.  People were most certainly oppressed into following something through their own fear of being imprisoned and tortured if they didn't.

*This is Luther's word on "once saved always saved"--

Here are some quotes from Luther which shows that he taught the heresy of Once Saved Always Saved: 

"Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here in this world we have to sin. This life is not a dwelling place of righteousness" 

"No sin will separate us from the lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day." 
*
*"Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to." 

"The imputation of righteousness we need very much, because we are far from perfect. As long as we have this body, sin will dwell in our flesh. Then, too, we sometimes drive away the holy spirit; we fall into sin, like Peter, David, and other holy men. Nevertheless we may always take recourse to this fact, that our sins are covered, and that God will not lay them to our charge. Sin is not held against us for Christ's sake." 

"your sin cannot cast you into hell" 

"No sin can harm me" 

*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is the author of your "once saved always saved" doctrine--Luther told you to *"sin all the more"* and that "nothing can separate you from God once you confess belief.  This is the man you follow believing in such nonsense---not God.

This is the very doctrine "snatching" people out of the hands of God teaching them to "sin all the more" "without repentance"--"without good works"--this is what will indeed lead people away from God and not towards Him.

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## jmdrake

> i am saying people who are saved still sin. But Jesus' blood covers our sins, period.


Okay.  So you changed what you said.  Okay.  Your prerogative I suppose.  Here is the bottom line.  If you are willfully something over Jesus, that's a problem.  I'm not talking about falling into sin.  Everybody falls.  But the rich young ruler, who *believed* in Jesus was not willing to choose Jesus over his money.  That's a problem.  And if you believe we were created with free will, and it seems that you do as you are not a Calvinist and believe that someone must make an initial choice for Jesus, then it stands to reason that the same person, who *really* believed he had chosen Jesus and was "assured" of salvation might change his mind.  Now you can argue all day long that such a person never really had "real faith" to begin with.  Okay.  But that's not assurance of salvation.  That's "assurance of salvation what I thought was faith in Jesus ultimately turns out to be faith in Jesus."  I choose to trust that I need to continually trust Jesus.  It's the opposite of trusting in myself for salvation.  It's complete trust in Him.

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## jmdrake

> so you felt the Spirit leave you?


Well the Spirit left Sampson, but Sampson didn't feel it leaving.  He definitely felt the results of the Spirit being gone.  Sampson repented and prayed and the Spirit came back.  That's what the Bible says anyway.

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## jmdrake

> Hell is more like getting life in prison or capital punishment for stealing a penny. Infinitely severe punishment for temporal, finite crimes.


Actually there's another thread on whether or not hell goes on forever.  []

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## Eagles' Wings

Lily:

Please pm as I have many books from Puritan writers.  I recently stopped at a garage sale, a neighbor who I've just met, and he has an extensive library of books by Reformers, and I bought many for 50 cents, and an extraordinary commentary of Hebrews by a Puritan, that has been sent along to a friend.  

Louise

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