# Lifestyles & Discussion > Freedom Living >  Shortages will start happening NOW! Please read and prepare

## mcvac

I know this will probably get moved to another topic but I wanted to post where most of us congregate...I also posted on DP...because I want to let as many people aware as I can of what is happening...

We just got a call from our MAJOR pet supply distributor...We have been recieving weekly deliveries..well forever...and now they have limited them to twice a month...my rep has told me that at some point they are considering only monthly deliveries or longer due to gas, a slow economy, etc.

I questioned her further about this and was told that MANY industries...including food distributors.... were now considering "combining routes" as a way to offset fuel prices...

This means that if a product comes in and is sold off in a short time there may be a LONG wait for the next truck to come around with more..

Just giving a heads up as to what is happening.

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## jrich4rpaul

> I know this will probably get moved to another topic but I wanted to post where most of us congregate...I also posted on DP...because I want to let as many people aware as I can of what is happening...
> 
> We just got a call from our MAJOR pet supply distributor...We have been recieving weekly deliveries..well forever...and now they have limited them to twice a month...my rep has told me that at some point they are considering only monthly deliveries or longer due to gas, a slow economy, etc.
> 
> I questioned her further about this and was told that MANY industries...including food distributors.... were now considering "combining routes" as a way to offset fuel prices...
> 
> This means that if a product comes in and is sold off in a short time there may be a LONG wait for the next truck to come around with more..
> 
> Just giving a heads up as to what is happening.


I work in receiving, unloading trucks in retail, and we recently went from 3-5 trucks per week to just one.

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## micahnelson

I work for a defense contractor. Instead of daily truckloads of virgins, cocaine, and Cuban cigars we have cut to bi weekly shipments. 

Don't interpret my levity as disbelief. I have noticed this phenomenon at the local grocery stores in the last few weeks- Products in short supply, discontinuing varieties of products to focus on one or two types of items.

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## acptulsa

Got railroads?

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## wgadget

I heard the truckers were going to go on strike come April.  This should only make matters worse...

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## micahnelson

> I heard the truckers were going to go on strike come April.  This should only make matters worse...


Truckers will be the next scapegoat. Talk radio will be a twitter about those evil commie union truckers.

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## lynnf

> Got railroads?



do the rails come up to the store so that the railcar can back up to the loading dock for easy unloading?  NOT!


lynn

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## acptulsa

> do the rails come up to the store so that the railcar can back up to the loading dock for easy unloading?  NOT!
> 
> 
> lynn


Make that not any more.  Nonetheless, it takes a lot less fuel to ship to your town by train and use the truck to get only from the rail yard to your neighborhood market.  A _lot_ less fuel.

Ever seen a train carrying trailers and containers?  Intermodal is good stuff.

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## angelatc

Couldn't this be a good thing in the long term though? Couldn't it mean that local farms could again compete with corporate farms? Local manufacturers could compete with bigger corporations in local markets?

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## RonPaulVolunteer

SILVER is also in short supply. And I'm not joking.

Did you buy on Monday??  I did

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## acptulsa

> Couldn't this be a good thing in the long term though? Couldn't it mean that local farms could again compete with corporate farms? Local manufacturers could compete with bigger corporations in local markets?


Good question on the first part.  Remember that larger entities will still have more buying power and will still be able to drive a harder bargain.  Nonetheless, I feel sure that "buying local" will become much more prevalent.

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## seapilot

> SILVER is also in short supply. And I'm not joking.
> 
> Did you buy on Monday??  I did


Silver today, Gold tommorow as the dollar continues to freefall. Taxes are not in short supply thanks to Congresses Democrats majority, they raised the 10% bracket up to 15%, the poorest tax bracket. HOw many government program budgets did they cut, NADA.

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## WV Freedom Fighter

> Ever seen a train carrying trailers and containers?  Intermodal is good stuff.


True, it does "save fuel" but also has a negative impact on the economy putting truckers out of work.

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## acptulsa

> True, it does "save fuel" but also has a negative impact on the economy putting truckers out of work.


Yes it does.  So, fuel prices are hurting the economy by driving prices up and saving fuel hurts the economy by causing unemployment.  Thanks, Dubya.  Hang on, folks, we're about to experience turbulence...

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## DeadtoSin

I'd prepare with food/water/silver/gold but I don't have any money. I basically earn enough to make it to the next week. I'm a bit nervous about the future to be honest.

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## Sandra

> do the rails come up to the store so that the railcar can back up to the loading dock for easy unloading?  NOT!
> 
> 
> lynn


No, we can just go back to the good ol' days of about 20 years ago and have trucks for each store that do to the train docks and get their containers of stuff. Then they drive  about 4 or 5 miles, unload it and go get another.

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## amy31416

The people I feel worst for are those who live in areas that don't have farms around them. Gladly, I live in an area with lots of them surrounding and they're quite diverse, food, dairy, beef, etc.

I always try to buy local when I can, gotta keep these places in business.

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## Sandra

There were far too many truckers anyway. I've always thought trains were the best transport. We have a local train that goes by at least three times a day. If mail were transported by our train we would have mail arrive from the Baton Rouge office the same day it was sent!

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## acptulsa

> There were far too many truckers anyway. I've always thought trains were the best transport. We have a local train that goes by at least three times a day. If mail were transported by our train we would have mail arrive from the Baton Rouge office the same day it was sent!


They used to sort the mail on the trains.  Hard to find trucks big and efficient enough for that.

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## Sandra

> The people I feel worst for are those who live in areas that don't have farms around them. Gladly, I live in an area with lots of them surrounding and they're quite diverse, food, dairy, beef, etc.
> 
> I always try to buy local when I can, gotta keep these places in business.


Amy, Farmers Markets are a goldmine in these areas. If stores close due to rare deliveries or bad economy, people will still need a centralized area to buy and sell.

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## Sandra

> They used to sort the mail on the trains.  Hard to find trucks big and efficient enough for that.


Mail was sent on those regular containers, they just loaded it up and delivered it to the post office. I bet it's rough to do it on the train.

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## acptulsa

> Amy, Farmers Markets are a goldmine in these areas. If stores close due to rare deliveries or bad economy, people will still need a centralized area to buy and sell.


One of these days I'll figure out the mindset that allows a person (not you, obviously) to say Ron Paul's ideas vis a vis nonintervention, the gold standard and constitutional rights are archaic one second and rave about farmers' markets the next.  Such people do, paradoxically, exist.

In some cases, those who refuse to learn from history are condemned _not_ to repeat the _good_ parts.

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## Lance C Roseman

> Couldn't this be a good thing in the long term though? Couldn't it mean that local farms could again compete with corporate farms? Local manufacturers could compete with bigger corporations in local markets?


Everyone should take a local Permaculture design course.  Period.  yes, there will be lots of CO2 'global warming' BS and 'Peak Oil' nonsense, but suburbia could and should become a heavy food production area with intelligent design.
Everyone with a lawn can convert it into a garden with a layer of nitrogen, organic hopefully, if not, so be it (you can use urine).  Followed by non-dyed cardboard, followed by compost, followed by mulching hay (if people can get it in Vancouver BC, everyone reading this can surely find it somewhere).  Water it daily and viola, in a few months you have rich topsoil, built by you.  Add whatever you want as far as mulch goes, leaves, lawn clippings, anything organic really...and do it soon.
Look up 'sheet mulching' and read this article...google it yourself..."Permaculture: The Quiet Revolution".

There are not enough small farmers to feed us all at this point, we'll have to provide for ourselves and our families and more than likely our dumb neighbours!

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## acptulsa

> Mail was sent on those regular containers, they just loaded it up and delivered it to the post office. I bet it's rough to do it on the train.


Actually, the Santa Fe Railway was one of the pioneers of containerized mail.  Earlier than that, however, they had a thing called the Railway Post Office, where sorting occured while underway.  Remember that a larger percentage of the population lived in smaller towns back then.  They tended to kick mail bags off the train while it was in motion, and had interesting hooks and poles they used to also pick up mailbags on the fly.  Now you know why old mailbags are so tough!

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## voytechs

> Couldn't this be a good thing in the long term though? Couldn't it mean that local farms could again compete with corporate farms? Local manufacturers could compete with bigger corporations in local markets?


Absolutely. We already get a lot of our produce in the summer from local farmers. Food will get there one way or another, but probably not at the current price. That is the problem for most folks. Also remember Europe has already been paying $6/gal of gas for a long time. They do OK, but they do it with a lot smaller cars, a lot more walking and public transportation.

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## amy31416

> Everyone should take a local Permaculture design course.  Period.  yes, there will be lots of CO2 'global warming' BS and 'Peak Oil' nonsense, but suburbia could and should become a heavy food production area with intelligent design.
> Everyone with a lawn can convert it into a garden with a layer of nitrogen, organic hopefully, if not, so be it (you can use urine).  Followed by non-dyed cardboard, followed by compost, followed by mulching hay (if people can get it in Vancouver BC, everyone reading this can surely find it somewhere).  Water it daily and viola, in a few months you have rich topsoil, built by you.  Add whatever you want as far as mulch goes, leaves, lawn clippings, anything organic really...and do it soon.
> Look up 'sheet mulching' and read this article...google it yourself..."Permaculture: The Quiet Revolution".
> 
> There are not enough small farmers to feed us all at this point, we'll have to provide for ourselves and our families and more than likely our dumb neighbours!


That's exactly what I'm planning to do. I live in a corner lot house and have, essentially, two yards. I'm going to fence it in, get a garden and compost heap going out there, and turn the garage into a processing area. It'd be great if the neighbors weren't so dumb though, we could form a cooperative so everyone could be taken care of.

And even if shortages don't come to pass, why not do it? You'll still be saving a lot of money and have some really great produce to boot.

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## acptulsa

> Also remember Europe has already been paying $6/gal of gas for a long time. They do OK, but they do it with a lot smaller cars, a lot more walking and public transportation.


Unfortunate that our communities are absolutely _not_ designed to make mass transit convenient--or in some cases, even workable.

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## Signzit

> Everyone should take a local Permaculture design course.  Period.  yes, there will be lots of CO2 'global warming' BS and 'Peak Oil' nonsense, but suburbia could and should become a heavy food production area with intelligent design.
> Everyone with a lawn can convert it into a garden with a layer of nitrogen, organic hopefully, if not, so be it (you can use urine).  Followed by non-dyed cardboard, followed by compost, followed by mulching hay (if people can get it in Vancouver BC, everyone reading this can surely find it somewhere).  Water it daily and viola, in a few months you have rich topsoil, built by you.  Add whatever you want as far as mulch goes, leaves, lawn clippings, anything organic really...and do it soon.
> Look up 'sheet mulching' and read this article...google it yourself..."Permaculture: The Quiet Revolution".
> 
> There are not enough small farmers to feed us all at this point, we'll have to provide for ourselves and our families and more than likely our dumb neighbours!



Sounds good i'm already there but with WHAT WATER? Many local water treatment plants are using reclaimed water and recycled water filtered this will end, water will be unfit to drink or water your yard. Or, maybe you don't think social services will shut down?

You'll need filters and BIG TANKS. Some of us Whachos, have been preparing months and months. Dirt won't get it either, too much water loss short fast drinks mean Hydroponic set-ups. people will starve. 

*I'll keep saying it, "get out of the bigger cities if you can".*

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## tangent4ronpaul

> Everyone should take a local Permaculture design course.  Period.  yes, there will be lots of CO2 'global warming' BS and 'Peak Oil' nonsense, but suburbia could and should become a heavy food production area with intelligent design.
> Everyone with a lawn can convert it into a garden with a layer of nitrogen, organic hopefully, if not, so be it (you can use urine).  Followed by non-dyed cardboard, followed by compost, followed by mulching hay (if people can get it in Vancouver BC, everyone reading this can surely find it somewhere).  Water it daily and viola, in a few months you have rich topsoil, built by you.  Add whatever you want as far as mulch goes, leaves, lawn clippings, anything organic really...and do it soon.
> Look up 'sheet mulching' and read this article...google it yourself..."Permaculture: The Quiet Revolution".
> 
> There are not enough small farmers to feed us all at this point, we'll have to provide for ourselves and our families and more than likely our dumb neighbours!


Just don't use Monsanto seeds or you will be eating for one season!

That may be a problem with those that grow for farmers markets too...  

They are taking over seed companies, and now just about any seed you can get at a grocery store, hardware store or garden center is genetically altered to not produce viable seed.  Remember, starvation is one of the oldest weapons of mass destruction - and it's in the hands of a corporation with a very unethical track record.  There was a reason why the use of Monsanto seeds was mandated in the Iraqi Constitution and saving or using heirloom seeds made illegal.

-n

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## tangent4ronpaul

> I'd prepare with food/water/silver/gold but I don't have any money. I basically earn enough to make it to the next week. I'm a bit nervous about the future to be honest.


Look at where you spend money and how.  Don't ever eat out, bring a sack lunch.  Never buy individual bottles or cans of whatever - buy a water container or thermos and bring it instead.  Grow sprouts for greens, learn thermos jug cookery - cuts down on utility bills too.  Insulating windows and doors during cold months will save more than materials cost.  Cook with rice and basic grains - reduce the amount of meat you eat.  You can eat for next to nothing - then figure out what your saving, and if it costs you 40 cents for a meal, when you'd normally spend $2.50 a Micky D's - put that extra $2.10 in a change can - you will be amazed how fast it adds up!

With your new found wealth, buy in bulk.  Look up local food coops, etc.  That should get you started.

look up this book - it's considered a classic on underground camping as well as being a survival manual.  Tells you how to do all sorts of things for almost no money.

-n

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## Sandra

> Actually, the Santa Fe Railway was one of the pioneers of containerized mail.  Earlier than that, however, they had a thing called the Railway Post Office, where sorting occured while underway.  Remember that a larger percentage of the population lived in smaller towns back then.  They tended to kick mail bags off the train while it was in motion, and had interesting hooks and poles they used to also pick up mailbags on the fly.  Now you know why old mailbags are so tough!


If I had the sorting job, I would upchuck all over the mail!

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## sratiug

> I heard the truckers were going to go on strike come April.  This should only make matters worse...


I heard truckers on CNN last week talking about a walk out to protest the high gas prices.  It could be a wake-up call for a lot of people.  April 15th?

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## amy31416

> Sounds good i'm already there but with WHAT WATER? Many local water treatment plants are using reclaimed water and recycled water filtered this will end, water will be unfit to drink or water your yard. Or, maybe you don't think social services will shut down?
> 
> You'll need filters and BIG TANKS. Some of us Whachos, have been preparing months and months. Dirt won't get it either, too much water loss short fast drinks mean Hydroponic set-ups. people will starve. 
> 
> *I'll keep saying it, "get out of the bigger cities if you can".*


Rain collection bins for watering the garden. 

You can also set up systems in your home for recycling water.

Use the water that you wash vegetables with to water other plants.

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## LittleLightShining

> Just don't use Monsanto seeds or you will be eating for one season!
> 
> That may be a problem with those that grow for farmers markets too...  
> 
> They are taking over seed companies, and now just about any seed you can get at a grocery store, hardware store or garden center is genetically altered to not produce viable seed.  Remember, starvation is one of the oldest weapons of mass destruction - and it's in the hands of a corporation with a very unethical track record.  There was a reason why the use of Monsanto seeds was mandated in the Iraqi Constitution and saving or using heirloom seeds made illegal.
> 
> -n


Fedco and High Mowing are 2 great seed companies.

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## RonPaulFever

> I'd prepare with food/water/silver/gold but I don't have any money. I basically earn enough to make it to the next week. I'm a bit nervous about the future to be honest.


I'm in the same boat as you, but I bit the bullet and took the first step by purchasing a firearm.  Once you have that, you can concentrate on stockpiles of dry and canned goods and such.

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## acptulsa

> Rain collection bins for watering the garden.


Originally guttering almost always led to a barrel.  Old tricks work!

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## amy31416

> Originally guttering almost always led to a barrel.  Old tricks work!


That's exactly what I'm designing. So far, what I've conceived of is re-routing the gutters to a barrel, then having another barrel next to it connected by an overflow hose near the top for when that one gets full. Both have lids to prevent evaporation. The only problem I'm having with the design is that there is a potential of the water stagnating, but I'm working on it. It might just be as simple as a hose connector at the bottom to drain on occasion if there are periods of heavy rainfall.

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## acptulsa

> That's exactly what I'm designing. So far, what I've conceived of is re-routing the gutters to a barrel, then having another barrel next to it connected by an overflow hose near the top for when that one gets full. Both have lids to prevent evaporation. The only problem I'm having with the design is that there is a potential of the water stagnating, but I'm working on it. It might just be as simple as a hose connector at the bottom to drain on occasion if there are periods of heavy rainfall.


Put the barrel in the attic.  Beats pumping!

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## amy31416

What seed companies does Monsanto own, or, who do they supply seeds to? Part of my plan for the garden was to start saving the seeds for the following year, so I wouldn't want to get any of the "terminator" seeds.

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## amy31416

> Put the barrel in the attic.  Beats pumping!


No attic, just a crawl space unfortunately. Great idea though.

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## acptulsa

> No attic, just a crawl space unfortunately. Great idea though.


Actually, that would probably put it above the gutters, which wouldn't work.  Top of a closet, if possible, would.

Has to be below the eaves, though.

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## tangent4ronpaul

> What seed companies does Monsanto own, or, who do they supply seeds to? Part of my plan for the garden was to start saving the seeds for the following year, so I wouldn't want to get any of the "terminator" seeds.


Basically all of the big ones now a days.  You need to get seeds that are marked as heirloom or organic to avoid them.

The best thing to do is call or e-mail ALL the seed companies you can find and ask if they sell NON-Monsanto seeds.  If they say no, tell them they just lost your business and thanks anyway.  If they say yes, say wonderful! - please send me a catalog!

If they sell both, be sure to ask how you can tell - how they are marked in the catalog.  If it's not clear, contact them about each type of seed you are interested in.

If enough people did this, it would have an effect.

-n

http://www.organicconsumers.org/monlink.cfm
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Monsanto
http://www.ethicalinvesting.com/monsanto/

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## LittleLightShining

> What seed companies does Monsanto own, or, who do they supply seeds to? Part of my plan for the garden was to start saving the seeds for the following year, so I wouldn't want to get any of the "terminator" seeds.


The links I posted are for independent seed companies. Fedco is a sort of clearinghouse for seed farmers of all sizes. Their pledge: Agriculture and seeds provide the basis on which our lives depend. We must protect this foundation as a safe and genetically stable source for future generations. For the benefit of all farmers, gardeners and consumers who want an alternative, we pledge that we do not knowingly buy or sell genetically engineered seeds or plants. The mechanical transfer of genetic material outside of natural reproductive methods and between genera, families or kingdoms, poses great biological risks as well as economic, political and cultural threats. We feel that genetically engineered varieties have been insufficiently tested prior to public release. More research and testing are necessary to further assess the potential risks of genetically engineered seeds. Further, we wish to support agricultural progress that leads to healthier soils, genetically diverse agricultural ecosystems and ultimately people and communities. 

I prefer High Mowing because they also pledge to be GMO-free and are a small local company.

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## LEK

> I'd prepare with food/water/silver/gold but I don't have any money. I basically earn enough to make it to the next week. I'm a bit nervous about the future to be honest.


If you are true to your name...don't worry. You know Who is in control.

BUT a prudent man prepares.

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## LEK

> Fedco and High Mowing are 2 great seed companies.


Why organic seeds? Are the unorganic seeds affected by pesticides?

Planning a big garden...composte...microbrewery...

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## LittleLightShining

Seed farms are big operations-- usually. If the seeds are grown using conventional, non-organic methods, you can assume that the land the seeds are grown on is being polluted. The more we can support organic seed farms, the more land we can keep clean, sending a message to the bigger seed farms that home gardeners are concerned about the integrity of the land. Even if they don't get the message,we can help the more thoughtful seed farmers make a good living.

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## faraway

Hi -n

_look up this book - it's considered a classic on underground camping as well as being a survival manual. Tells you how to do all sorts of things for almost no money._

What book is that???

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## JosephTheLibertarian

Great. The faster the economy goes, the faster the government goes over the wayside lol

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## tangent4ronpaul

> Why organic seeds? Are the unorganic seeds affected by pesticides?
> 
> Planning a big garden...composte...microbrewery...


Monsanto's Roundup Pesticide Killing Wheat

Monsanto also produces the most commonly used broadleaf pesticide in the world, glyphosate--or Roundup. In addition to its inherent toxicity as a chemical pesticide, Roundup has now been found to aid the spread of fusarium head blight in wheat. This disease creates a toxin in the infected wheat, making the crop unsuitable for human or animal consumption. Canada's wheat industry is currently being ravaged by this disease. At the same time, the widespread use of Roundup has resulted in the formation of "super weeds" --- unwanted plants that have developed an immunity to these pesticides. Read study linking Monsanto's Roundup to Cancer.

...

Genetically Modified Corn Study Reveals
Health Damage and Cover-up

By Jeffrey M. Smith, author of Seeds of Deception

When a German court ordered Monsanto to make public a controversial 90-day
rat study on June 20, 2005, the data upheld claims by prominent scientists
who said that animals fed the genetically modified (GM) corn developed
extensive health effects in the blood, kidneys and liver and that humans
eating the corn might be at risk. The 1,139 page research paper on
Monsanto¹s ³Mon 863² variety also revealed that European regulators accepted
the company¹s assurances that their corn is safe, in spite of the
unscientific and contradictory rationale that was used to dismiss
significant problems. In addition, the study is so full of flaws and
omissions, critics say it wouldn¹t qualify for publication in most journals
and yet it is the primary document used to evaluate the health impacts.

...

Monsanto is in the process of acquiring and patenting their newest technology, known as "Terminator Technology." This technology is currently the greatest threat to humanity. If it is used by Monsanto on a large-scale basis, it will inevitably lead to famine and starvation on a worldwide basis.

Billions of people on the planet are supported by farmers who save seeds from the crops and replant these seeds the following year. Seeds are planted. The crop is harvested. And the seeds from the harvest are replanted the following year. Most farmers cannot afford to buy new seeds every year, so collecting and replanting seeds is a crucial part of the agricultural cycle. This is the way food has been grown successfully for thousands of years.

With Monsanto's terminator technology, they will sell seeds to farmers to plant crops. But these seeds have been genetically-engineered so that when the crops are harvested, all new seeds from these crops are sterile (e.g., dead, unusable). This forces farmers to pay Monsanto every year for new seeds if they want to grow their crops.

In less rich countries, hundreds of millions of people rely heavily on small farms which produce foods for the region. If these farms begin to use Monsanto's terminator technology, and cannot afford to buy new genetically engineered seeds from Monsanto the following year, many of the people in the region may starve. Under normal circumstances, food could be brought in from other regions. However, many of those other regions will likely have the same problems with famine due to Monsanto's terminator technology.

      "It's terribly dangerous," says Hope Shand, "half the world's farmers are poor and can't afford to buy seed every growing season, yet poor farmers grow 15 to 20% of the world's food and they directly feed at least 1.4 billion people - 100 million in Latin America, 300 million in Africa, and 1 billion in Asia. These farmers depend upon saved seed and their own breeding skills in adapting other varieties for use on their (often marginal) lands."

What is even more frightening is that traits from genetically-engineered crops can get passed on to other crops. Once the terminator seeds are released into a region, the trait of seed sterility could be passed to other non-genetically-engineered crops making most or all of the seeds in the region sterile.

      Camila Montecinos, an agronomist with the Chilean organization, CET, has another concern, "We've talked to a number of crop geneticists who have studied the patent," she says. "They're telling us that it's likely that pollen from crops carrying the Terminator trait will infect the fields of farmers who either reject or can't afford the technology. Their crop won't be affected that season but when farmers reach into their bins to sow seed the following season they could discover - too late - that some of their seed is sterile. This could lead to very high yield losses. If the technology is transmitted through recessive genes, we could see several years of irregular harvests and a general - even dramatic - decline in food security for the poorest farm communities."

...

The United States Government has been financing research on a genetic engineering technology which, when commercialized, will give its owners the power to control the food seed of entire nations or regions. The Government has been working quietly on this technology since 1983. Now, the little-known company that has been working in this genetic research with the Governments US Department of Agriculture-- Delta & Pine Land-- is about to become part of the worlds largest supplier of patented genetically-modified seeds (GMO), Monsanto Corporation of St. Louis, Missouri.

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## tangent4ronpaul

> Hi -n
> 
> _look up this book - it's considered a classic on underground camping as well as being a survival manual. Tells you how to do all sorts of things for almost no money._
> 
> What book is that???


oops! - sorry about that!

http://www.oism.org/nwss/

-n

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## Highstreet

> I heard the truckers were going to go on strike come April.  This should only make matters worse...


I have only heard small numbers, like 1,000, on April 1st.  Could just be an April Fools, but I wouldn't be surprised to see one by April 15th.

Those shortages of Silver seem to be based on some good info.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/6968...ilver-shortage

I don't know about shortages caused by Distributors cutting back on the _Number of Deliveries_.

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## Signzit

Monsanto = Rockefeller right? Yeah, 1 time seeds.

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## tangent4ronpaul

> Monsanto = Rockefeller right? Yeah, 1 time seeds.


don't know...  but this is the company responsible for Agent Orange...


As to a truckers strike - if it's big, it will just be used as an excuse to push through allowing many more Mexican truckers on our highways.

-n

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## gb13

> don't know...  but this is the company responsible for Agent Orange...


Not to mention aspartame...

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## pinkmandy

> don't know...  but this is the company responsible for Agent Orange...


And don't forget another product they've convinced most Americans they can't live without- choose Lysol if you miss the neurotoxins of Agent Orange. A toxic chemical that kills 99.9% of germs in NOT healthy for anyone.

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## faraway

Got it, thanks...

Took a look and thought how funny the book constantly refers to "families" when our govrnments policies have been designed for years to break up families, and have pretty much succeeded. I guess singles and smaller broken family units won't have much of a chance.

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## anarchy

In regards to your water problems - I had a 400 foot deep automated pump installed, and I am totally cut off from public water supply.  Guests don't even notice that
I'm not connected to the public water supply because it appears just the same.  Although the ground water smells deliciously sweet and fresh! My toilets are flushed with rain water.  

If anyone knows a solution for electricity - I was thinking of using solar panels combined with batteries to cover the nights?

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## SteveMartin

Wind turbines...if your high up.  You can get one for about $7500 that ties into the box outside, and reduces your bill by whatever it inputs.

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## tangent4ronpaul

best way is to switch to 12 V appliances and go solar and/or wind.

depending on where you are you can do hydro-electric, tidal, and some more exotic solutions.

some people string a wire in the trees along high power lines and get it by induction - but the power companies don't like that... 

http://www.backwoodssolar.com/catalog/books_videos.htm
http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/Qan...nergyQandA.htm
hmmm... not finding the place I was thinking about.  You can run 110 of an inverter, but your batteries charge will not last long.  w/ good 12v systems, you insulate better - really thick walls and sealing latches for fridges and freezers.  you can also run them off kerosene.

see here for non-electric...
http://www.lehmans.com/


-n

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## Lance C Roseman

> Sounds good i'm already there but with WHAT WATER? Many local water treatment plants are using reclaimed water and recycled water filtered this will end, water will be unfit to drink or water your yard. Or, maybe you don't think social services will shut down?
> 
> You'll need filters and BIG TANKS. Some of us Whachos, have been preparing months and months. Dirt won't get it either, too much water loss short fast drinks mean Hydroponic set-ups. people will starve. 
> 
> *I'll keep saying it, "get out of the bigger cities if you can".*


Sorry, I moved out of Vancouver over y2k possibilities and now live in one of the worlds few Temperate Rainforests, water is not an issue for me!  I've drank water from all 17 clean creeks in my locale. And I've two good wells with absolutely no development on the mountain behind me.  With a deep mulch system, you don't need to water very much at all.  That's why I suggested adding as much as possible.  Some people claim that it lures slugs, and boy, do we ever have slugs here in South Coastal BC!, but I've not found this to be a problem.
As for hydroponics, you can use seawater or sea 'solids' as long as you have a source of nitrogen.  Google 'sea energy agriculture' and then find sources of sea solids afterwords.
I'm going to play around with a sea energy hydropnic basil set up this summer using nothing but watered down sea water and urine as my nitrogen source.  When you use urine you have to use it within 24 hours or the nitrogen will 'float' out.

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## Lance C Roseman

> Just don't use Monsanto seeds or you will be eating for one season!
> 
> That may be a problem with those that grow for farmers markets too...  
> 
> They are taking over seed companies, and now just about any seed you can get at a grocery store, hardware store or garden center is genetically altered to not produce viable seed.  Remember, starvation is one of the oldest weapons of mass destruction - and it's in the hands of a corporation with a very unethical track record.  There was a reason why the use of Monsanto seeds was mandated in the Iraqi Constitution and saving or using heirloom seeds made illegal.
> 
> -n


I only use OP seeds, but am leaning towards a perennial based diet aside from a few staples like kale, potato's, quinoa and amaranth.  I've got 700 goji (lycium chinense) going an they are selling like crazy.  Everyone with property could and maybe should start a perennial food plant nursery in my opinion.  Look into the 'plants for a future' database for ideas on perennial food plants for your site.

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## amy31416

> I only use OP seeds, but am leaning towards a perennial based diet aside from a few staples like kale, potato's, quinoa and amaranth.  I've got 700 goji (lycium chinense) going an they are selling like crazy.  Everyone with property could and maybe should start a perennial food plant nursery in my opinion.  Look into the 'plants for a future' database for ideas on perennial food plants for your site.


I've been looking into perennial vegetables as well, but it seems pretty limited for this area (NW PA), plenty of fruits, berries and herbs, but vegetables are pretty rare. 

Any suggestions?

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## LittleLightShining

> I've been looking into perennial vegetables as well, but it seems pretty limited for this area (NW PA), plenty of fruits, berries and herbs, but vegetables are pretty rare. 
> 
> Any suggestions?


Jerusalem artichokes, asparagus and rhubarb immediately come to mind.

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## Carole

> I heard the truckers were going to go on strike come April.  This should only make matters worse...


It is a one day event.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=130478

Radio Interview here:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/apr...ains-momentum/

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## Lance C Roseman

> I've been looking into perennial vegetables as well, but it seems pretty limited for this area (NW PA), plenty of fruits, berries and herbs, but vegetables are pretty rare. 
> 
> Any suggestions?


Take a local Permaculture design course and you'll find people whom are knowledgeable about food/fiber/fuel/medicine plants that will thrive in your area.  The courses tend to cost about $100.00 for an introduction, just google your county and permaculture and you are apt to find something.  I haven't found too many areas without at least one 'permie'.  But as I stated earlier, there will be a bunch of global warming stuff and peak oil junk.  

http://www.scottlondon.com/interviews/mollison.html

"Scott London: A reviewer once described your teachings as "seditious."

Bill Mollison: Yes, it was very perceptive. I teach self-reliance, the world's most subversive practice. I teach people how to grow their own food, which is shockingly subversive. So, yes, its seditious. But its peaceful sedition"

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## amy31416

Thanks Lance and LittleLightShining for both suggestions. I'll hunt around for a course and see what can grow in this area.

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## kyleAF

> Got railroads?


Warren Buffet does.

Hop aboard the money train with him...

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## kyleAF

> Monsanto is in the process of acquiring and patenting their newest technology, known as "Terminator Technology." This technology is currently the greatest threat to humanity. If it is used by Monsanto on a large-scale basis, it will inevitably lead to famine and starvation on a worldwide basis.
> 
> Billions of people on the planet are supported by farmers who save seeds from the crops and replant these seeds the following year. Seeds are planted. The crop is harvested. And the seeds from the harvest are replanted the following year. Most farmers cannot afford to buy new seeds every year, so collecting and replanting seeds is a crucial part of the agricultural cycle. This is the way food has been grown successfully for thousands of years.
> 
> With Monsanto's terminator technology, they will sell seeds to farmers to plant crops. But these seeds have been genetically-engineered so that when the crops are harvested, all new seeds from these crops are sterile (e.g., dead, unusable). This forces farmers to pay Monsanto every year for new seeds if they want to grow their crops.
> 
> In less rich countries, hundreds of millions of people rely heavily on small farms which produce foods for the region. If these farms begin to use Monsanto's terminator technology, and cannot afford to buy new genetically engineered seeds from Monsanto the following year, many of the people in the region may starve. Under normal circumstances, food could be brought in from other regions. However, many of those other regions will likely have the same problems with famine due to Monsanto's terminator technology.
> 
>       "It's terribly dangerous," says Hope Shand, "half the world's farmers are poor and can't afford to buy seed every growing season, yet poor farmers grow 15 to 20% of the world's food and they directly feed at least 1.4 billion people - 100 million in Latin America, 300 million in Africa, and 1 billion in Asia. These farmers depend upon saved seed and their own breeding skills in adapting other varieties for use on their (often marginal) lands."
> ...


Holy hell.  Sometimes I think conspiracies are nuts, and other times I think it's all too easy to carry them out with today's populace looking the other way (at the TV, usually).

This could potentially explain the seedbank effort.  I sure hope it doesn't though... as that bodes very badly indeed.

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## kigol

huh?

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## orafi

are my pet birds done for?!

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## LittleLightShining

> Holy hell.  Sometimes I think conspiracies are nuts, and other times I think it's all too easy to carry them out with today's populace looking the other way (at the TV, usually).
> 
> This could potentially explain the seedbank effort.  I sure hope it doesn't though... as that bodes very badly indeed.


This is _exactly_ why the seedbank happened.

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## ConstitutionGal

> are my pet birds done for?!


Not only those but pretty soon your dogs and cats as well (all in the name of preventing a 'national emergency', of course! )

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## shadow26

> Amy, Farmers Markets are a goldmine in these areas. If stores close due to rare deliveries or bad economy, people will still need a centralized area to buy and sell.


I would agree that Farmer's Markets are a goldmine, but can you imagine what would happen if all the people that show up at grocery stores on any given Saturday show up at the market instead?  OMG.

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## jason43

Think runs on the banks are bad, imagine runs on the grocery stores without being able to get them restocked due to gas prices... this is scary stuff indeed... 

I think right now, people are just figuring out how to reduce gas use though. If they can ship less by truck, then they will. I read somewhere that every *penny* that gas goes up costs the trucking industry $256 million *per month*. Pretty insane... but its going to push rail stocks up, so buy some CSX

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## Sandra

We are in the preplanning stages of setting up a market. We have a treed corner lot in an area surrounded by new subdivisions (no high foreclosures, hopefully) and sidewalks. Many of the homes have large backyards perfect for growing a few fruis and veggies.

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## thuja

> Seed farms are big operations-- usually. If the seeds are grown using conventional, non-organic methods, you can assume that the land the seeds are grown on is being polluted. The more we can support organic seed farms, the more land we can keep clean, sending a message to the bigger seed farms that home gardeners are concerned about the integrity of the land. Even if they don't get the message,we can help the more thoughtful seed farmers make a good living.


in india, farmers commit suicide regularly, due to the control monsanto has over them.  see www.gmwatch.org get their newsletter to stay familiar w/happenings worldwide

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## thuja

> are my pet birds done for?!


hope not. feed organic seeds. grow sunflowers?

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## thuja

hey, smokers! get organic cigs! the companies are using genetically modified tobacco in them. 
american spirit makes them.
as for shortages, most will not feel sorry for a smoker that ran out, so better stop now. i am a health nut, tree hugger, animal lover, as you know, but am a champion smoker. if you stop, you are in good company, mine. i will not want to be freaking out over cigs if other things are going on.

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## thuja

book:the new seed starters, by bubel    hope it's useful

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## LittleLightShining

> hey, smokers! get organic cigs! the companies are using genetically modified tobacco in them. 
> american spirit makes them.
> as for shortages, most will not feel sorry for a smoker that ran out, so better stop now. i am a health nut, tree hugger, animal lover, as you know, but am a champion smoker. if you stop, you are in good company, mine. i will not want to be freaking out over cigs if other things are going on.


I buy organic roll-your-own from American Spirit and make my own filters with natural cotton.  It costs me about $8 for 3 weeks of cigs. I only smoke maybe 4 a day, though. I'll just quit if I can't get them when shtf.

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## Kraig

> hey, smokers! get organic cigs! the companies are using genetically modified tobacco in them. 
> american spirit makes them.
> as for shortages, most will not feel sorry for a smoker that ran out, so better stop now. i am a health nut, tree hugger, animal lover, as you know, but am a champion smoker. if you stop, you are in good company, mine. i will not want to be freaking out over cigs if other things are going on.


We should make our own cigs with a $ logo.

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## acptulsa

> We should make our own cigs with a $ logo.


Anyone have a formula for blue steel suitable for rail?

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## Charles Wilson

> We are in the preplanning stages of setting up a market. We have a treed corner lot in an area surrounded by new subdivisions (no high foreclosures, hopefully) and sidewalks. Many of the homes have large backyards perfect for growing a few fruis and veggies.


As you know, food markets and victory gardens are not new. They were plentiful during the 30s and 40s. Having said that, this is a good time to purchase gardening tools that do not require gasoline. Puchasing seeds may become a problem in the future but they are plentiful today. 

Also, now is a good time to learn about growing and preserving your own stuff whether you will actually need that knowledge or not. I did just that several years ago -- it is fun; the food taste good too!

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## Hawk45

OK first off ALL commercial seeds are controlled by about 6-8 companies.  They ALL produce 'terminator' seeds as that is how they make their money by forcing folks to buy their products year after year.  The only ones they do not control is the small companies selling 'heirloom' seeds which allow you to use the seeds from their veggies to produce the next years crop.

As for folks who smoke I suggest going to a pipe.  You can grow your own tobacco and can use it without paper of filters.  The trick is using a GOOD pipe and not some $9.95 Dr. Graybowl special.  BTW tobacco growing is HARD!

As for economical transportation of goods look at what we are doing already with barges on the rivers.  You will be surprised just how much more they are moving than trucks and trains COMBINED.

It will NOT be the Union truckers that will strike as the companies that hire them just pass the fuel cost along to US.  It will be the independants that are getting hit the worst NOW by both fuel and the current government.

Now you have your garden that you are feeding YOUR family with.  What are you gonna do to protect it when folks start 'borrowing' YOUR food from you?  For that matter what are you gonna do for toilet paper when the trucks quit delivering?

There is WAY more to surviving than just building a bomb shelter and buying a gun.  Folks may want to google up some survival sites that have been at it for YEARS.  They are not so silly now are they?

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## amy31416

> As for economical transportation of goods look at what we are doing already with barges on the rivers.  You will be surprised just how much more they are moving than trucks and trains COMBINED.
> 
> Now you have your garden that you are feeding YOUR family with.  What are you gonna do to protect it when folks start 'borrowing' YOUR food from you?  For that matter what are you gonna do for toilet paper when the trucks quit delivering?
> 
> There is WAY more to surviving than just building a bomb shelter and buying a gun.  Folks may want to google up some survival sites that have been at it for YEARS.  They are not so silly now are they?


Damn. You sound torqued off. No reason, you are amongst friends here and there's nothing wrong with learning new things.

Anyways, so, get heirloom seeds--check. Stock up on toilet paper--check. Stock up on food--check. 

Have any good websites you can share?

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## thuja

i'm glad i got tons of toilet paper before all you guys bought it up.
i  smoked a pipe years ago just to be funny, but that's a very good idea, in case i didn't manage quitting smoking on time.

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## Kraig

I'm just gonna take shower every time I have to $#@!.

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## Highland

> I'd prepare with food/water/silver/gold but I don't have any money. I basically earn enough to make it to the next week. I'm a bit nervous about the future to be honest.


God is with you....and we are praying for you.  Watch the google video "Who Moved My Cheese?"  it will change your way of solving this problem.

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## maggiebott

> I'm just gonna take shower every time I have to $#@!.


I can't stop laughing!

Seriously though, is burpee seeds part of the monsanto breed?  In which case I'll have to start my wee plants from scratch again.

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## Hawk45

> Damn. You sound torqued off. No reason, you are amongst friends here and there's nothing wrong with learning new things.
> 
> Anyways, so, get heirloom seeds--check. Stock up on toilet paper--check. Stock up on food--check. 
> 
> Have any good websites you can share?


No, not torqued.  Just constantly amazed how little useful things we Americans know.  We know more about Brittany's belly button than what we put in our mouths everyday.

As to survival sites here is a couple to start with.

http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/
http://libertyquestandfreedomboard.yuku.com/

I will tell you up front that the second one is mine and a few friends of mine.  It is open to the world for anyone wanting to know about survival.  Some of us have been 'survivalist' for alot of years.  Even before it was considered evil by some that liken it to militias.  It is about surviving about anything.  Know this though I am NOT here recruiting for the board.  Just trying to share info.

Frugals has been around for YEARS and is one of the better known ones.  Good site that I have nothing but good things to say about it.

There is a site somewhere that lists the things that disappear first in time of trouble that I cannot find right now, but if I can find it I will post it.  Some of the things will open your eyes as to what to stock up on first.  It was compiled by interviewing folks in the former Yugoslavia and shows what disappeared first when they disbanded.

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## amy31416

> No, not torqued.  Just constantly amazed how little useful things we Americans know.  We know more about Brittany's belly button than what we put in our mouths everyday.


I think you're right for the most part, but I don't think that applies to the majority of us around here. Personally, I've had my nose buried in science books or been a hermit in a lab for the last god knows how long.

Thank you for the info and links, by the way. I'll check 'em out.

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## amy31416

> I can't stop laughing!
> 
> Seriously though, is burpee seeds part of the monsanto breed?  In which case I'll have to start my wee plants from scratch again.


I'm curious about that as well. Anyone have a list so I can check the seeds I already have?

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## Corydoras

> I'm curious about that as well. Anyone have a list so I can check the seeds I already have?


Big seed catalogs buy their seeds from numerous suppliers, just the way any retail shop buys from various wholesalers.

The best way to avoid Monsatan is to buy heirloom varieties. Just do a search for "heirloom seeds" and you'll come up with companies like these:

http://www.seedsavers.org
http://www.southernexposure.com
http://www.oldhousegardens.com (flower bulbs)
http://www.heirloomseeds.com
http://www.rareseeds.com
http://www.seedsofchange.com

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## Charles Wilson

> Big seed catalogs buy their seeds from numerous suppliers, just the way any retail shop buys from various wholesalers.
> 
> The best way to avoid Monsatan is to buy heirloom varieties. Just do a search for "heirloom seeds" and you'll come up with companies like these:
> 
> http://www.seedsavers.org
> http://www.southernexposure.com
> http://www.oldhousegardens.com (flower bulbs)
> http://www.heirloomseeds.com
> http://www.rareseeds.com
> http://www.seedsofchange.com


For those interested in gardening tools I suggest you check out Lehman's from Ohio. Also, for those of you interested in preserving your own food check out "Ball Blue Book -- Guide to Home Canning, Freezing and Dehydration" and "Canning Foods - The University of Tennessee". You can poison yourself if you do not know what you are doing.

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## amy31416

Thanks for both sources Charles and Corydoras.

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## moostraks

> For those interested in gardening tools I suggest you check out Lehman's from Ohio. Also, for those of you interested in preserving your own food check out "Ball Blue Book -- Guide to Home Canning, Freezing and Dehydration" and "Canning Foods - The University of Tennessee". You can poison yourself if you do not know what you are doing.


I LOVE Lehman's...They are a great company to deal with. Super fast service. We are hoping to be up in their area soon and get  to see their newly expanded sales space.  They are an awesome resource for all things non-electric and some items which are electric. A+++++++

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## libertybrewcity

what ever happened to those shortages? hmm..

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## tmosley

> what ever happened to those shortages? hmm..


Prices went up, so shortages went away.  Wait until price controls are brought back.

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## hillbilly123069

Check my links in economics. Its related.

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## DamianTV

I remember having seen another report about a year ago that said the BALTIC DRY INDEX had dropped by something insane like 95% or 98%.  For those that dont know, the Baltic Dry Index reflects the ammt of goods we are shipping into this country.  Does anyone have a link to that particular story?  A link to the current Baltic Dry Index would probably also be helpful.

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## tmosley

> I remember having seen another report about a year ago that said the BALTIC DRY INDEX had dropped by something insane like 95% or 98%.  For those that dont know, the Baltic Dry Index reflects the ammt of goods we are shipping into this country.  Does anyone have a link to that particular story?  A link to the current Baltic Dry Index would probably also be helpful.


It's not goods coming into this country, it's total shipping by sea across given sea lanes (more specifically, the average price of shipping over those sea lanes), and as such is a measure of world trade.  It collapsed back then, but now it is back near it's normal levels (it collapsed after a huge run-up).  There was also a lot of shipping capacity that was taken offline, so it's not as reliable an indicator to compare to past trade anymore.

A link: http://investmenttools.com/futures/b..._dry_index.htm

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## libertybrewcity

> Prices went up, so shortages went away.  Wait until price controls are brought back.


yea, i know. it just seems like this post spread lots of fear and nothing ever materialized.

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