# Think Tank > U.S. Constitution >  Allodial title

## Old Ducker

Help me out here.  Did the Treaty of Paris grant allodial title to the United States, or to the 13 states.  If the latter, who held title to non-state lands east of the mississippi river?  The Articles of Confederation doesn't reference allodial title but merely that the states have "sovereignty."  At any rate, the revolutionary war was still underway when the articles were ratified.  The US Constitution is also silent on the issue.  I'm interested in the early history of real estate law.

A dim light is shed on this subject in the Northwest Ordinance of 1787.  It provides for freehold estates for public officials and further states that no taxes on property shall exist in the United States (Article 4).  This would imply that private title is held in allodia, although it doesn't explicitly say that...

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## Danke

From MN Constitution:

Sec. 15.  LANDS ALLODIAL; VOID AGRICULTURAL LEASES. All lands within the state are allodial and feudal tenures of every description with all their incidents are prohibited. Leases and grants of agricultural lands for a longer period than 21 years reserving rent or service of any kind shall be void.

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## Old Ducker

> From MN Constitution:
> 
> Sec. 15.  LANDS ALLODIAL; VOID AGRICULTURAL LEASES. All lands within the state are allodial and feudal tenures of every description with all their incidents are prohibited. Leases and grants of agricultural lands for a longer period than 21 years reserving rent or service of any kind shall be void.



Excellent!  Thanks much for that information.

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## Kotin

well how can you have property tax and allodial title?

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## Old Ducker

> well how can you have property tax and allodial title?


You can't.  Plus, if the property is free from mortgages, insurance or liens, you can't apply building codes or any other restrictions.  Allodial rights are absolute, permanent and immutable.

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## Deborah K

Me thinks Old Ducker is on to something!

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## Old Ducker

> Me thinks Old Ducker is on to something!


Muhahahaha!

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## Deborah K

> Muhahahaha!


Hehe.  Keep working this angle.  It is definitely worth exploring.  I'm learning from you.  I love this!

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## Acala

Find a court that will enforce it and THEN you are onto something.  Otherwise, you are going to be forced to obey the law of the jurisdiction including taxes and zoning regardless of what common law you cite and what special title you have.  Sorry.  There just aren't any legal loopholes to extract us from tyranny.

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## Old Ducker

> Find a court that will enforce it and THEN you are onto something.  Otherwise, you are going to be forced to obey the law of the jurisdiction including taxes and zoning regardless of what common law you cite and what special title you have.  Sorry.  There just aren't any legal loopholes to extract us from tyranny.


Of course you are correct.  However the law does state that if any existing law is unconstitutional, no matter how old since it's inception, it is void.  It never existed.
Under stare decisis, if ANY allodial cases reference the US as having alloidial title and that can be proven wrong, then this case can be challenged.

Furthermore, we all know we are headed to revolution of some form.  If we are going avoid repeating the mistakes of the past, it is critical that we understand what our actual rights are and how they became corrupted.  

So....there are two useful outcomes.  The first provides for the mechanism that the state must prove the legitimacy of it's powers, the second is restorative in nature....

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## roho76

Nevada and Texas are the only ones that allow allodial titles and then they are tough to obtain. You have to pay taxes in advance based on projected tax revenues. You also have to own the land free and clear of mortgages and liens. I don't think it's transferable to family. They will have to do the same with the taxes.

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## Danke

I was in a local group that had some exploring allodial titles.

One member was working with a law firm.  He was able to stop the town from taking a lady's property with eminent domain.

How he explained it.  You need to get the original Land Patent.  I got one for my property when I lived in WI from the Bureau of Land Management.

Then you have to "bring it forward."   If I recall correctly, you need to make sure there are no claims on the land and it wasn't sold in the past from a tax lien.  Then file your patent.

You now own the land allodially.

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## Matt Collins

Michael Badnarik discusses this in his Constitution Class online and also in his book, Good to be King.

But the Treaty of Paris said the following:
_His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States_, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, _to be free sovereign and independent states_, that he treats with them as such, and for himself, his heirs, and successors, _relinquishes all claims to the government, propriety_, and territorial rights of the same and every part thereof.

SOURCE:
http://www.law.ou.edu/ushistory/paris.shtml




.

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## Matt Collins

> How he explained it.  You need to get the original Land Patent.  I got one for my property when I lived in WI from the Bureau of Land Management.
> 
> Then you have to "bring it forward."   If I recall correctly, you need to make sure there are no claims on the land and it wasn't sold in the past from a tax lien.  Then file your patent.
> 
> You now own the land allodially.


I think it depends on the State of which you live.

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## Danke

> I think it depends on the State of which you live.


Yes, the original ones (13 colonies) I believe were a bit different.  The Midwest is all pretty similar with Land Patents from U.S. Presidents, mine was from James K. Polk.  Typically 40 acres a piece when the Patents were made.

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## Old Ducker

> Yes, the original ones (13 colonies) I believe were a bit different.  The Midwest is all pretty similar with Land Patents from U.S. Presidents.  Typically 40 acres a piece when the Patents were made.


I think it would also be different in areas that were purchased by the US government from foreign governments, specifically the Louisiana Purchase and Alaska, and those territories acquired by war (California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas).  I don't know what documents were prepared when the Republic of Texas joined the Union but allodial rights must be addressed in it somewhere.

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## Danke

> I think it would also be different in areas that were purchased by the US government from foreign governments, specifically the Louisiana Purchase and Alaska, and those territories acquired by war (California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas).  I don't know what documents were prepared when the Republic of Texas joined the Union but allodial rights must be addressed in it somewhere.


Yes, I have heard of some Patents in the Southwest going all the way back to Spain.

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## Old Ducker

> Yes, I have heard of some Patents in the Southwest going all the way back to Spain.


I live in Oregon.  The Oregon Territory was established by an act of congress in 1848 after a dispute with Britain that nearly came to bloodshed.  Apparently Allodial title was retained by the US government for this area (Oregon, Washington and Idaho, mostly).  The Oregon Constitution (ratified 1859) does not modify this arrangement but it does provide for land patents, not in the constitution but rather in the Oregon Revised Statues, referencing the original territorial act.

PS, there is a ton of useful information here (Deborah, take notice),

http://www.sodahead.com/blog/27077/a...-land-patents/

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## Danke

Bump.

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## Maximilian American

Good bump thanks

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