# Lifestyles & Discussion > Personal Prosperity >  Good Career choices: Should I become a Geologist or an Electrician?

## TheOraclePaul

Question for everyone: should I become a geologist or an electrician? I finished my undergrad a couple of years ago and was working in sales. However, the stress of selling something no one needs got to me and now I'm looking to make a switch. I have a family friend that has a connection for me in the local Industrial Electrical Union that could probably get me a job as an apprentice. The alternative is I continue studying for my GRE and go to graduate school for geology. I am worried about wages/the economy for both. I know geologists are doing well but what if prices collapse? Also, if I become an electrician, it's possible the industrial places I end up working could close down in a collapse.

Any advice? Thanks!

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## danda

electrician.

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## phill4paul

^^^

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## thoughtomator

Electrician for sure... even in the event of a major breakdown of the present system, electric services will still be in demand.

Only economic reason I can see for going into geology would be for mining and other resource exploitation (e.g. oil). But the number of people needed for that is fairly limited, I think, and Lord knows there must be a surplus of people with geology degrees.

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## TheOraclePaul

Heres the thing: an apprentice electrician starts at 16$/hr. After two years I'll be at like 22$/hr. However, if i do a masters in Geology, I can graduate and get a job at 70-80,000$ a year. There is a massive demand for them right now. Also, the schooling for a masters degree is paid for by the university, so I won't end up in debt (according to my professor that knew someone that did it).

It just sucks having to start at the bottom again as an apprentice...I could have done that 8 years ago at age 16 instead of 24 (which is how old i am now!).

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## CaptUSA

Depends on where you are located.  If you are in the Marcellus belt, I'd say stick with Geology.  You'll make a bundle.

However, if you want job security, an electrician's job won't make you wealthy, but you'll never starve either.

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## TonySutton

Do something you love or become a slave to your job.

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## pcgame

......

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## TheOraclePaul

> Do something you love or become a slave to your job.


Very true. Problem is, I have been thinking about what I want to do with my life for 3-4 years on an almost hourly basis - it has become a serious mental problem for me. Something that complicates my decision is knowing the economic situation we are in and that if I don't pick right I am going to be screwed and not be able to take care of a family.

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## TheOraclePaul

Another thing to add in is I want to move to a warm climate (Australia, California/Florida). I'm tired of cold winters and get depressed at the lack of sun here in Canada. I know I could go where electricians are in huge demand (Australia) but that would take 4-5 years until I complete my training. Whereas in Geology, I could move there after I finish 2 years of school.

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## V3n

I've heard - You can get paid for what you _do_; or you can get paid for what you _know_.

I've always believed it is better to get paid for what you know.  Your body will almost always wear out before your mind does.

Go Geologist if you have an interest in that field.  It will take longer, but it's a better investment in your mind.

(this is my opinion only and I have nothing but respect for Electricians - if there are any here it would be great to hear from your experience)

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## Eagles' Wings

> Another thing to add in is I want to move to a warm climate (Australia, California/Florida). I'm tired of cold winters and get depressed at the lack of sun here in Canada. I know I could go where electricians are in huge demand (Australia) but that would take 4-5 years until I complete my training. Whereas in Geology, I could move there after I finish 2 years of school.


  You seem to know yourself well.  You've done the research.  Is it possible to work in both fields?  Get the apprenticeship and work there while going to grad school?  Oh, and good that you are single while figuring this out.  Best to you!

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## Machiavelli

IT

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## Southron

Be sure you can find work as a geologist.  You can find work as an electrician many places.

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## Kluge

Personally, I'd go for electrician. Study geology on the side.

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## Tod

I know a retired geology professor.  He retired several years ago at age 50, lives on an island next to a national park, owns a couple of fairly large boats along with his house (all paid for in cash), and has a hobby/business he enjoys that keeps him busy in the winter months.

Either trade/profession has good earning potential.  Which one would you enjoy more and, to a lesser degree, do you want to live in a specific place?

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## oyarde

Take your best shot and decide . Electrician is a good job . Geology would be more fun . When I was young I was practical , I am old now and not so concerned , all of my kids are grown and out of school. Best of luck to you !

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## Brian4Liberty

Geology is less likely to be effected by a glut of cheap, imported labor.

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## rpwi

Not an expert on either industry...  But with geology, you will probably get one of two jobs.  You will probably be a professor or you will most probably work for the mining/oil industries.  If you have ethical qualms about selling junk to people who don't need it, then you could have qualms with finding deposits/oils in areas in which the ground water table could be put at risk.  Your job security will also be pretty dependent on the price of oil/natural resources which explains why geology is on the upswing now.  You might watch the documentary Gasland as a sample of what you may experience.

If you are serious about geology, thoroughly investigate the placement data for graduates for your school and major.  You may consider finding another school which has a stronger geology/industry integration and would make you more marketable when you get out of school.  

I dabbled with the idea of a geology major when I was in school...but the placement data was awful...it very well could be that times have changed though.  My vote would be for the apprenticeship.

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## TheOraclePaul

> Not an expert on either industry...  But with geology, you will probably get one of two jobs.  You will probably be a professor or you will most probably work for the mining/oil industries.  If you have ethical qualms about selling junk to people who don't need it, then you could have qualms with finding deposits/oils in areas in which the ground water table could be put at risk.  Your job security will also be pretty dependent on the price of oil/natural resources which explains why geology is on the upswing now.  You might watch the documentary Gasland as a sample of what you may experience.
> 
> If you are serious about geology, thoroughly investigate the placement data for graduates for your school and major.  You may consider finding another school which has a stronger geology/industry integration and would make you more marketable when you get out of school.  
> 
> I dabbled with the idea of a geology major when I was in school...but the placement data was awful...it very well could be that times have changed though.  My vote would be for the apprenticeship.


The placement data is pretty good for MASTERS graduates. Undergrad, I think that there are a lot of them so it's much more difficult to find a job. I would be attending one of the top 5 geology schools in the country: Colorado School of Mines, University of Colorado at Boulder, University of California Berkeley...etc... All research I've done was geared towards job prospects after graduation, and those schools had the 1. highest starting salaries and 2. highest ratings for geology education. They are also schools where the big companies do most of their hirings.

I'm still as confused as ever though. It sucks because I think I would be a great wealth manager, but I don't want to deal with bureaucracy which is what the banks offer. I've been great at managing my own money (50$K in savings) despite only really working part time jobs and putting myself through university.

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## TheOraclePaul

Funny thing about all this is if I were to follow my heart I'd probably do something involving marine fish. I love scuba diving and ever since I was a kid have been completely fascinated with sea life. Part of the reason I want to do Geology is as a compromise: I could live somewhere warm where I get to scuba dive often, but still make more money than a marine biologist.

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## osan

> Question for everyone: should I become a geologist or an electrician? I finished my undergrad a couple of years ago and was working in sales. However, the stress of selling something no one needs got to me and now I'm looking to make a switch. I have a family friend that has a connection for me in the local Industrial Electrical Union that could probably get me a job as an apprentice. The alternative is I continue studying for my GRE and go to graduate school for geology. I am worried about wages/the economy for both. I know geologists are doing well but what if prices collapse? Also, if I become an electrician, it's possible the industrial places I end up working could close down in a collapse.
> 
> Any advice? Thanks!


What in HELL would you do as a geologist?

Electrician all the way if you are of a practical bent.

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## TheOraclePaul

> What in HELL would you do as a geologist?
> 
> Electrician all the way if you are of a practical bent.


Work for one of the many mining/oil/gas companies? Work for environmental consulting companies? Work for the government in environmental roles? Many different things you could do with the designation.

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## davesxj

flip a coin and be diligent in the outcome.  guaranteed happiness.

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## Kluge

> Funny thing about all this is if I were to follow my heart I'd probably do something involving marine fish. I love scuba diving and ever since I was a kid have been completely fascinated with sea life. Part of the reason I want to do Geology is as a compromise: I could live somewhere warm where I get to scuba dive often, but still make more money than a marine biologist.


They need electricity in warm places too! And there's absolutely nothing stopping you from studying marine biology on the side. I think you'll be amazed that you'll be able to learn more marine biology on your own than in a structured education. It can also leave your mind far more open.

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## TheOraclePaul

Any other thoughts?

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## BattleFlag1776

> Funny thing about all this is if I were to follow my heart I'd probably do something involving marine fish. I love scuba diving and ever since I was a kid have been completely fascinated with sea life. Part of the reason I want to do Geology is as a compromise: I could live somewhere warm where I get to scuba dive often, but still make more money than a marine biologist.


There you go: Offshore wildcatter!  You are closer to your goal than you think!

For me, I'd stick with Geology.  If you have any desire for adventure wildcat positions hold a lot of promise and most people don't want to engage in this work.  Personally, I work in heavy earthwork so I get where you are coming from with the Geology degree.  One thing you might want to consider is going for a MS in Geological Engineering or Geotechnical Engineering as opposed to a straight degree in Geology.  Might offer more employment options over the course of your career.

Just my .02

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## bolil

My .16 si do what loves you, Geo-electrysosist.

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## heavenlyboy34

> electrician.


This^^  There's always going to be demand for that job unless electricity somehow goes out of style.

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## cubical

> electrician.


this

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## GeorgiaAvenger

Ha, I thought it said globalist.

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## Liberty Updates

Seems like something that only you could decide.

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## The Free Hornet

> Funny thing about all this is if I were to follow my heart I'd probably do something involving marine fish. I love scuba diving and ever since I was a kid have been completely fascinated with sea life. Part of the reason I want to do Geology is as a compromise: I could live somewhere warm where I get to scuba dive often, but still make more money than a marine biologist.


You could just tell people that you're a marine biologist.  What could possibly go wrong?

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## idiom

I don't know a lot of electricians making $400k per year...

If there are so many surplus geologists how come they are so well paid and have so many open jobs?

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## matt0611

How long is grad school and how much?

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## pcgame

........

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## bunklocoempire

Both.  Geothermal power plant.

Specialize in volcanology studies while learning the basics with a part time electrical labor job.  

And if you get the Hawaii gig, you can live in a warm climate. 

I worked electrical labor for almost two years and learned enough to be a danger to both myself and others -and I live on an active volcano. 

 I'm sure you could do much better if you applied yourself.




> http://www.punageothermalventure.com...ent-technology
> 
> PGV, the only commercial geothermal power plant in the state, is in the Puna District of Hawai‘i Island. It’s located about 21 miles south of Hilo. The facility is situated on about 30 acres of a 500-acre plot along the Lower East Rift Zone (LERZ) of the Kilauea Volcano. 
> 
> Powered by natural heat from the earth, PGV’s power plant has provided stable, sustainable electricity for the Big Island of Hawaii for more than a decade. The plant generates about 20 percent of the electrical energy—and energy diversification—to that market under a Power Purchase Agreement with HELCO.

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## LibForestPaul

http://www.seg.org/careers/employees/view-jobs/joblist

tons of jobs, not...

stable, good $$$, work with hands = electrician
unstable, travel, good $$$, cog in a wheel or government whore = geologist

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## TheOraclePaul

> http://www.seg.org/careers/employees/view-jobs/joblist
> 
> tons of jobs, not...
> 
> stable, good $$$, work with hands = electrician
> unstable, travel, good $$$, cog in a wheel or government whore = geologist


-Why would you say it's unstable? What about all the electricians I'm reading about that are out of work due to the housing bust? I live in Canada so I really don't know about what the trades are experiencing down there vs here, but housing is WAY overpriced up here and I know a bust will happen soon so I want to pick right.

-Electricians can be brought in from third world countries (look at Dubai) and paid almost nothing. I know there are more regulations over here but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

-Regarding the cost of schooling: it's almost free to do a Masters because the school pays you a stipend or gives you a TA position teaching students.

-I'd like to move to: Australia, Europe, US (California/Florida/Colorado) - not in any particular order but I want to know that it's possible with whatever career I choose.

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## Steven Douglas

Funny, it's like this thread was tailor-made for me.  I have a physics and electronics background, and my first career move was with a mineral exploration geophysics (resistivity and magnetometer surveys). 

If you are creative and ambitious, really good at what you do, and focus on applied geology/geophysics, and specifically exploration, and try to avoid dependency on the academic publicly funded "vacuum" side of geology (except as it increases your knowledge in an applied field), your knowledge and ingenuity can translate to real power, and you can make a LOT of money.  

If you have geology as a major with a minor in electrical engineering (NOT electrician, but actual electrical engineering), your value as a geologist skyrockets, as you become a specialized breed.  Even if you don't apply your knowledge as an entrepreneur, your value to firms like mineral exploration EQUIPMENT companies cannot be underestimated. 

Minerals of all kinds are becoming increasingly scarce as an exponential trend that has been maturing for some time, so there really is no shortage of opportunities in applied geology and geophysics.  

Hence, I like the suggestion that said "can't you do both?". You can. Simultaneously -- and you multiply your fall-back opportunities.  

The thing I consider the most important of all is the quality of life, over and above security or average income for a field.  Being an electrician is hard work, and electricians, for as much as they can make, are not that scarce, given that the requirements to work in that field open it up to a lot more competitors.  On top of that, the work really is, by and large, mundane.  Plus, if you're not planning to be a contractor with employees, ways to multiply or have a vested interest in anything you do are limited. You'll just be trading time for money. 

My opinion, were I in your position:

Geology/geophysics (Masters), with a minor (BSEE) in electrical engineering.  Do that and you're solid gold, set for life.

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## jclay2

Geology, you can go work for an oil/gas/mining company. You could probably make at least twice the electrician if you went that route. Also, as others have said, do what you love first and consider money as a distant second (assuming you are not going into huge amounts of debt slavery for schooling).

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## mtr1979

I was a union apprentice before (not an electrical apprentice) it wasn't for me.  I walked away because I worked my side jobs more than I worked union jobs.  Maybe being in the union is a good thing if you are buddies with the business agent.  Keep in mind if you go the electrician route that you are nothing more than temp, you work if and when they need you.

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## madengr

> If you have geology as a major with a minor in electrical engineering (NOT electrician, but actual electrical engineering), your value as a geologist skyrockets, as you become a specialized breed.  Even if you don't apply your knowledge as an entrepreneur, your value to firms like mineral exploration EQUIPMENT companies cannot be underestimated.


Can you even get a minor in EE?  Hell, most BSEE take 5 years.


You could always combine the fields as an electricians helper: you take shovel and dig trench for conduit; look at pretty rocks.

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## TheOraclePaul

> Funny, it's like this thread was tailor-made for me.  I have a physics and electronics background, and my first career move was with a mineral exploration geophysics (resistivity and magnetometer surveys). 
> 
> If you are creative and ambitious, really good at what you do, and focus on applied geology/geophysics, and specifically exploration, and try to avoid dependency on the academic publicly funded "vacuum" side of geology (except as it increases your knowledge in an applied field), your knowledge and ingenuity can translate to real power, and you can make a LOT of money.  
> 
> If you have geology as a major with a minor in electrical engineering (NOT electrician, but actual electrical engineering), your value as a geologist skyrockets, as you become a specialized breed.  Even if you don't apply your knowledge as an entrepreneur, your value to firms like mineral exploration EQUIPMENT companies cannot be underestimated. 
> 
> Minerals of all kinds are becoming increasingly scarce as an exponential trend that has been maturing for some time, so there really is no shortage of opportunities in applied geology and geophysics.  
> 
> Hence, I like the suggestion that said "can't you do both?". You can. Simultaneously -- and you multiply your fall-back opportunities.  
> ...


-Is it possible to get a 'minor' while you are doing a masters degree? I thought minors were for undergrad?

-What are you doing now? Are you still in the geology field?

-Quality of life is important to me as I like to spend time with my family. Are there good opportunities for high paid work with normal family life (fly in fly out on a 2 week away/ 1 week back doesn't really sound like it would be good for family life)?

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## LibertyRevolution

It would seem to me there would be more jobs for electricians then for geologists...
Electrician, seems like the safer bet.

Note, this is not a fun job.
It is frustratingly unforgivably technical at times mixed with hard physical labor at others times.

You need to seriously consider the fact that you are going to be stuck lugging 100's of lbs of wire, then spend hours crushed into tight 3ft crawl spaces next to steam pipes that make it like 100ºF and 90% humidity while on your back pinning 100's of pins of breadboard...

I tried it for a year as an E2 apprentice, I couldn't take it. Its a brutal job as the low man on the totem pole!
In this state its like 10,000 hours of apprenticeship to get to take the E1 test, that is 250weeks at 40hour weeks, 4.8 years..

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## TheOraclePaul

> It would seem to me there would be more jobs for electricians then for geologists...
> Electrician, seems like the safer bet.
> 
> Note, this is not a fun job.
> It is frustratingly unforgivably technical at times mixed with hard physical labor at others times.
> 
> You need to seriously consider the fact that you are going to be stuck lugging 100's of lbs of wire, then spend hours crushed into tight 3ft crawl spaces next to steam pipes that make it like 100ºF and 90% humidity while on your back pinning 100's of pins of breadboard...
> 
> I tried it for a year as an E2 apprentice, I couldn't take it. Its a brutal job as the low man on the totem pole!
> In this state its like 10,000 hours of apprenticeship to get to take the E1 test, that is 250weeks at 40hour weeks, 4.8 years..


Where you a union apprentice or non-union? Industrial or residential? Does it make a big difference (I've heard it does)?

Honestly this is so difficult for me. I think I have ADD. I recently worked an office job and I HATED it - I quit after about 6 months. The politics and chit chatter were driving me nuts - there was no one really doing any work. I also HATED being confined to a chair and constantly felt like I needed to get up and move around.

I have heard about the hard working conditions of electricians. To be honest with you, it kind of sounds like it would be fun not having to sit and stare at a computer. However, I suppose the grass is always greener on the other side. I would definitely like to have some energy once I get home from work, which it sounds like I would be coming home drained.

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## Icymudpuppy

The two seem rather unrelated.

Why not become an electrical engineer.  Then you can work as an electrician while you build a resume for that good engineering position.

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## Danan

I'd always do what helps me to start my own business / become independent. I don't know if it's more likely to become some kind of independent consultant as a geologist or to start your own business as an electrician but I personally would take that question into consideration along with likely earning potential, working conditions and what I find more interesting.

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## madengr

> The two seem rather unrelated.
> 
> Why not become an electrical engineer.  Then you can work as an electrician while you build a resume for that good engineering position.


Dead end job; you'll hit compression before you are 40, as they try to out-source your job to China or India, or in-source you with indentured servants (i.e. H1B).

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## pcgame

.....

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## Arklatex

There aren't many geologists, most Universities don't even have a geology department anymore.

If I had to do it over again, I'd have done geology, I even had an offer from a head of a GEO department who said he'd get me a scholarship if I went into it (maybe he was scared for his salary because they couldn't get many students  - that was at OK State)

Both are good choices I'd say, but if you choose Electrician prepared to get shocked.  It's not fun taking a 220.

I say College is pretty much a rip off though(i've learned most of what I know on my own accord) so the apprenticeship sounds like a natural choice.

good luck chap

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## Steven Douglas

> -Is it possible to get a 'minor' while you are doing a masters degree? I thought minors were for undergrad?


Sorry, I missed the part where you said you had completed your undergrad work, meaning you already have a degree? In what? In the States you can pursue a higher and lower degrees simultaneously, the lower degree being analogous to a 'minor'.  I'm not familiar with Australia's higher education system, and don't know how much math and physics you have under your belt, but the question for me would be how many of the credits accumulated along the way could apply and overlap, making a shorter run at two degrees, or one Masters degree with an unusual skill set. 




> -What are you doing now? Are you still in the geology field?


I am an active member of the AGU and the GSA, and have made presentations at annual meetings.   But it's not my field, per se. All of my work is self-funded, as an avocation, with no real commercial interests on my part.  I just never lost interest (love, really) in geology and geophysics, generally speaking.  It's still a frontier, and quite exciting to me. The first four years of my adult working life were spent in mineral and oil exploration fields, but only as an electrical engineer/technical side, from resistivity and magnetometer survey equipment for mineral exploration, to "wireline logging" equipment in the oil field ("tools" with radioactive sources lowered into an open or cased hole at a drilling site).  However, I have been self-employed most of my adult life, with most of my time spent serving the semiconductor industry.  




> -Quality of life is important to me as I like to spend time with my family. Are there good opportunities for high paid work with normal family life (fly in fly out on a 2 week away/ 1 week back doesn't really sound like it would be good for family life)?


I told my son years ago never to look at any field generically, or with a "masses" mindset, except to generally quantify it -- before actually taking a good, hard look.  Your job isn't to simply "find a high paying job in a field", but rather to _carve out and explore your favorite niche_ within that field; something that excites you, fits your favorite mode of thinking, working and living, where you can excel in your chosen specialty to the point where your "competition" becomes nothing more than a handful of welcome and relatively few colleagues.  And that can be in any field.  

A geologist out in the sun doing field work; surveying, coring, or taking samples with a rock pick comes to the mind of most who think about geology, and while that happens it is most definitely not the whole picture.  Geology was once used as the label that encompasses all the hard geosciences, but it's evolved into kind of a misnomer now, with distinctions between geology and geophysics blurred to the casual observer.  Geology is more focused on the empirical and qualitative, studying the composition and history of rock on all scales, while geophysics tends to focus more on quantitative, mathematically driven physics-based models that are more qualitative, less empirical.  However, both geology and geophysics have myriad branches, many of which dovetail and crossover, and many of which have virtually no emphasis on field work. It's so specialized in so many cases that the number of opportunities are practically limitless for anyone who actually goes in and studies both fields.  

I don't where in Oz you are, but Oceana's IGC is having a giant meeting in a couple of months.  If you have the opportunity to attend, and you can get to Brisbane, I think you would find it an enormous eye-opener -- and pay closest attention to the vendors there, as that could also be the source of niche market for you. 

http://www.34igc.org/ 

That's just one - but you can make a lot of friends there, and get invaluable input from a lot of people.  Listen especially to the grumblers - the whiners and complainers (most of whom are trapped in academia, dependent on publishing, playing politics, and seeking out the next "funding opportunity").   Then look at the obviously happy ones, and specifically why it is they're happy.  There are many, many good opportunities for high paid work with normal family life in all the geosciences.  Whatever you do, don't go in without a road map.  Quantify it - find your favorite opportunity and specifically _target it_.

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## TheOraclePaul

> Sorry, I missed the part where you said you had completed your undergrad work, meaning you already have a degree? In what? In the States you can pursue a higher and lower degrees simultaneously, the lower degree being analogous to a 'minor'.  I'm not familiar with Australia's higher education system, and don't know how much math and physics you have under your belt, but the question for me would be how many of the credits accumulated along the way could apply and overlap, making a shorter run at two degrees, or one Masters degree with an unusual skill set. 
> 
> 
> 
> I am an active member of the AGU and the GSA, and have made presentations at annual meetings.   But it's not my field, per se. All of my work is self-funded, as an avocation, with no real commercial interests on my part.  I just never lost interest (love, really) in geology and geophysics, generally speaking.  It's still a frontier, and quite exciting to me. The first four years of my adult working life were spent in mineral and oil exploration fields, but only as an electrical engineer/technical side, from resistivity and magnetometer survey equipment for mineral exploration, to "wireline logging" equipment in the oil field ("tools" with radioactive sources lowered into an open or cased hole at a drilling site).  However, I have been self-employed most of my adult life, with most of my time spent serving the semiconductor industry.  
> 
> 
> 
> I told my son years ago never to look at any field generically, or with a "masses" mindset, except to generally quantify it -- before actually taking a good, hard look.  Your job isn't to simply "find a high paying job in a field", but rather to _carve out and explore your favorite niche_ within that field; something that excites you, fits your favorite mode of thinking, working and living, where you can excel in your chosen specialty to the point where your "competition" becomes nothing more than a handful of welcome and relatively few colleagues.  And that can be in any field.  
> ...


Hey Steven - all great advice! I'm actually a Canadian. I honestly don't know what field of geology I would be interested in - I just started thinking back to my undergrad and that my earth science courses I enjoyed a lot. I think I would prefer to be a biologist but I'm practical enough to realize that you won't make a good living doing that.

I like the idea of geology because it would allow me to live where I want to live in the world: somewhere warm where I can go scuba diving as often as possible. If that is a good enough motivator for me to get the job and work hard, then I will.

Is geology a difficult field? How often do you have to write reports - I feel like that element of it could get boring very quickly? Thanks again.

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## Steven Douglas

> Is geology a difficult field? How often do you have to write reports - I feel like that element of it could get boring very quickly? Thanks again.


Remember that while I've worked with hundreds of geologists and geophysicists, I am neither. At least not by degree, as I am mostly self-taught (or taught by those in the field).  Again, it depends on the branch of geology you go into, and what role you intend to play in that branch.  As an empirical science, it can be documentation intensive. Ultimately, the fruits of your work equates to knowledge, and therefore reports of some kind.  But that doesn't necessarily mean that you're busily writing them from day to day (like a cop who has write detailed reports on daily events).  Even if you're into something that involves intensive data collection, it could be automated. Or you may end up collecting data while someone else crunches numbers or writes reports.  

If you're plugged into the academia vacuum side of geology, the odds of you having to conform dogmatically to a methodology and behave more like a habitual report-writing bureaucrat are definitely increased (even as your value is decreased).  Commercial interests tend to be less focused on you being a scribe and more focused on accuracy and actionable information as your end result. 

I'm much older now, but if I had it to do all over again, I would take the advice I've given in this thread.  And my target would be as an applied geophysicist with an electrical engineering foundation (where you can actually design your own tools, or tools for others).  And remember - for as much as I LOVE and respect geology and geologists, it's MUCH easier for a geophysicist to become or be considered a geologist than it is for a geologist to become or be considered a geophysicist. That's mostly because geology is so diverse that much of it can be learned in the field, whereas geophysics requires a math/physics foundation that can't be learned on the job, and must be laid down in classrooms.  And there's a definite pecking order to that as a result. 

Good luck to you! I sincerely hope that whatever road(s) you take gives you an environment that makes you want to leap out of bed every morning for the rest of your life.

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## madengr

> peter schiff actually says engineering will be safe degree in one of his books.


I don't recall reading that in Crashproof; maybe it was one of his later books.  I read a recent book, and I'll post the name later when I remember it, that warns all knowledge work is subject to the global race to the bottom.  Engineering is no longer a career, rather a job, and a commodity at that, which even IEEE admits.  Believe me, if most corporations could have a guy doing integrated circuit design in a dirt floor hut for a bowl of rice a day, they'd be fighting like dogs to outsource the work to maximize the profit for that quarter.  I knew a gal that alternated between working as an engineer in an IC fab, and driving a truck; as I said, it's just a job.  Look how companies, such as HP who were a world leader in test and measurement, with long term research, have been destroyed, and now produce garbage commodity products.

I'd only recommend going into engineering if you really love messing with circuits, already doing it as a hobby.  China is where it's at now; technologically, this country is dead.  The whole "we need more STEM graduates" is a sham to eroded the salary base even further.

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## LibertyRevolution

> Where you a union apprentice or non-union? Industrial or residential? Does it make a big difference (I've heard it does)?
> 
> Honestly this is so difficult for me. I think I have ADD. I recently worked an office job and I HATED it - I quit after about 6 months. The politics and chit chatter were driving me nuts - there was no one really doing any work. I also HATED being confined to a chair and constantly felt like I needed to get up and move around.
> 
> I have heard about the hard working conditions of electricians. To be honest with you, it kind of sounds like it would be fun not having to sit and stare at a computer. However, I suppose the grass is always greener on the other side. I would definitely like to have some energy once I get home from work, which it sounds like I would be coming home drained.


It was non-union, it was small 2 man company. So it would be me and 2 guys on a big job, but most jobs was just me and one the bosses.
The year I spent we did all retrofit work. No new construction. We did both residential and commercial. 
I would pull 90% the wire for the jobsite, I would install all the equipment and boxes.
I would then do all the E2 pinning, security alarms, fire alarms, and the phones, video, network.
That would be what was typical for me to do on a site as an E2 apprentice. 

Was I being abused as far as getting stuck on the $#@! end of the stick every time? You bet. 
That is what happens when you work for a small business, when its just you and owner, guess who is crawling in that tight hot space?

You know what though, I don't think i would have had it any other way...
I learned a lot, more than I would if I was at some union site with a dozen people on it.
There is something to be said for having 1 on 1 training.
I may not have my E2 cert.. but I can wire alarms, networks, video surveillance, and phones without having to call someone to do it for me.
So either way, I think it was a year well spent, I just couldn't live through 4 more of it..

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## TheOraclePaul

> It was non-union, it was small 2 man company. So it would be me and 2 guys on a big job, but most jobs was just me and one the bosses.
> The year I spent we did all retrofit work. No new construction. We did both residential and commercial. 
> I would pull 90% the wire for the jobsite, I would install all the equipment and boxes.
> I would then do all the E2 pinning, security alarms, fire alarms, and the phones, video, network.
> That would be what was typical for me to do on a site as an E2 apprentice. 
> 
> Was I being abused as far as getting stuck on the $#@! end of the stick every time? You bet. 
> That is what happens when you work for a small business, when its just you and owner, guess who is crawling in that tight hot space?
> 
> ...


Do you ever regret not getting fully certified? Based on the work you saw the fully qualified (journeymen) electricians doing, do you think that would have been enjoyable? I understand apprentices perform more manual labor tasks. I want to know I would be working towards something enjoyable though, even if it's a few years down the road.

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## Pericles

> Heres the thing: an apprentice electrician starts at 16$/hr. After two years I'll be at like 22$/hr. However, if i do a masters in Geology, I can graduate and get a job at 70-80,000$ a year. There is a massive demand for them right now. Also, the schooling for a masters degree is paid for by the university, so I won't end up in debt (according to my professor that knew someone that did it).
> 
> It just sucks having to start at the bottom again as an apprentice...I could have done that 8 years ago at age 16 instead of 24 (which is how old i am now!).


Demand for geologists is cyclical - depends primarily on drilling. A price collapse will minimize the amount of exploration going on. I know one very experienced geologist, who has not worked in geology in 15 years ....

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## jbauer

My brothers a couple hours away from being a Journeyman electrician and has been unemployed since 2009.  He wont move to North Dakota though where there is jobs but no housing.  

I'm in sales.  I like it, but I've always been independant and couldn't probably handle a normal week for a F500 company.  Only problem is sometimes money flows in like clockwork and other times its barley a trickle.

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## Elwar

A geologist studies rocks right? Is there a lot of inherent value in that? Is that used to create new things or produce something or is it just something used by other geology teachers in order to teach other geologists how to become geologists (sorta like getting an English degree so that you can go on to become an English teacher so that you can teach others with English degrees to become English teachers)? I am curious as I do not know enough about the field and what they do.

Just about everybody uses electricity. There will always be a need for people who know how to make it work.

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## pcgame

.....

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## madengr

> yeah please post soon especially what you mean by knowledge work
> 
> http://www.for-your-dream-career.com...roof-Jobs.html
> 
> This link is on recession proof jobs and he takes 3 economics guys and peter schiff is one of them.  He gets his list from The Little Book of Bull Moves in Bear Markets by PETER SCHIFF
> 
>     1. Engineering, because the abandoned U.S. industrial base will need to be re-tooled.
>     2. Construction, to rebuild the American infrastructure.
>     3. Agriculture, as we wean ourselves from imported foodstuffs.
> ...


Here ya go.  I'd send it to you, but it's a ebook stuck on my iPad.  Depressing read.

*The Global Auction: The Broken Promises of Education, Jobs, and Incomes*

http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/genera...=9780199731688




> Description
> For decades, the idea that more education will lead to greater individual and national prosperity has been a cornerstone of developed economies. Indeed, it is almost universally believed that college diplomas give Americans and Europeans a competitive advantage in the global knowledge wars.
> 
> Challenging this conventional wisdom, The Global Auction forces us to reconsider our deeply held and mistaken views about how the global economy really works and how to thrive in it. Drawing on cutting-edge research based on a major international study, the authors show that the competition for good, middle-class jobs is now a worldwide competition--an auction for cut-priced brainpower--fueled by an explosion of higher education across the world. They highlight a fundamental power shift in favor of corporate bosses and emerging economies such as China and India, a change that is driving the new global high-skill, low-wage workforce. Fighting for a dwindling supply of good jobs will compel the middle classes to devote more time, money, and effort to set themselves apart in a bare-knuckle competition that will leave many disappointed. The authors urge a new conversation about the kind of society we want to live in and about the kind of global economy that can benefit workers, but without condemning millions in emerging economies to a life of poverty. 
> 
> The Global Auction is a radical rethinking of the ideas that stand at the heart of the American Dream. It offers a timely expose of the realities of the global struggle for middle class jobs, a competition that threatens the livelihoods of millions of American and European workers and their families.


Anyway, the plan, sold to us mudanes, was that the US would be the brains (i.e the knowledge work) while Asia would be the body doing the manufacturing.  Everything would be hunky dory for everyone as long as the US educated itself to be the knowledge workers, hence the college scam sold on the mundanes, while Asian incomes would rise.  The flaw in the plan is that the Asians are perfectly capable of doing the knowledge work as well, and the costs are allot less, coupled with the ease of outsourcing knowledge work via cheap global communications.

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## Evangelical_Protestant

No matter how bad things become, and no matter how technological society becomes, the world will always need plumbers. Theoretically electricity can be absent, but potable water/filtration and waste removal is mandatory for even basic societies. 

I know it wasn't on your list, and being without electricity is nearly impossible even for the far distant future. But I just thought I'd share that fact! 

As for me, I'm a painter, so I'm used to being absolutely worthless to the advancement of society. I would love to find a way to become a plumber though. Despite the poop.

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## madengr

Yeah, but waste treatment requires electricity.

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## TheOraclePaul

> No matter how bad things become, and no matter how technological society becomes, the world will always need plumbers. Theoretically electricity can be absent, but potable water/filtration and waste removal is mandatory for even basic societies. 
> 
> I know it wasn't on your list, and being without electricity is nearly impossible even for the far distant future. But I just thought I'd share that fact! 
> 
> As for me, I'm a painter, so I'm used to being absolutely worthless to the advancement of society. I would love to find a way to become a plumber though. Despite the poop.


Do you charge cash at a lot of your jobs? I really find that aspect of the trades appealing. There's something about doing a job for straight up cash and feeling it in your hands that is just awesome (also, knowing the gov isn't taking a chunk of it is great!).

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## kpitcher

> No matter how bad things become, and no matter how technological society becomes, the world will always need plumbers. 
> I know it wasn't on your list, and being without electricity is nearly impossible even for the far distant future. But I just thought I'd share that fact!


Coming from a family business with master plumbing / licensed mechanical contractor background I can say it compares to electricians, there is a vast different between city and rural work. I know large city unions can keep you busy if times are good, if times are bad things can and do get slow. There is a glut of trade workers out there in cities who price each other to the extreme lows.  Even in my rural area companies pop up all the time. Many don't last for more than a few years (Like most small businesses) and it doesn't hurt the customer base overall. But in a larger city it's an even worse problem. 

I know I did not go into the family business. Despite a very loyal customer base - and having a guaranteed income from a few hundred second homes to winterize and open up every year - I didn't want that as my career. Plumbing is a very physical job - at least the typical non-new construction only shops. While I'm not afraid to break a sweat but I don't know many old plumbers without back problems! I've had back surgery myself and I'm in my 30s.  If you want to become a plumber there are plenty of non-union shops out there to work at. Most states require an apprentice style program but that's just a formality, you work a few years and can take a test to be a journeyman, a few more and you're a master if you pass.

With that said skilled trades will always be in demand. There is growing competition and far more "fly by nights" than ever but if you are a licensed tradesman you will be able to have a job earning money.  

But if you're trying to figure out a career I'd follow the advice of others on here, focus on doing something you enjoy. Look at the job stats of both, figure out the money difference between the two, and figure out what you'd be able to get up every morning to do for a few decades.

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## LibForestPaul

whatever you do, make sure you are not too far removed from the teat of government

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