# News & Current Events > Individual Rights Violations: Case Studies >  Ex-Marine gunned down by SWAT team

## Occam's Banana

This is truly vile & disgusting. Read the whole story. It's infuriating.
Can anyone seriously claim we are not living in a murderous police state?

SWAT team fired 71 shots in raid:




> The Pima County Regional SWAT team fired 71 shots in seven seconds at a Tucson man they say pointed a gun at officers serving a search warrant at his home.
>                                                 Jose Guerena, 26, a former Marine who served in Iraq twice, was holding an AR-15 rifle when he was killed, but he never fired a shot, the Sheriff's Department said Monday after initially saying he had fired on officers during last week's raid.
>                                                 Six days after Guerena was shot, few details about the investigation that brought the SWAT team to the southwest-side home Guerena shared with his wife and their two young sons are known.


William Grigg comments on this story at LRC.com.

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## Brian4Liberty

> This is truly vile & disgusting. Read the whole story. It's infuriating.


As infuriating as it is, lying and covering up are as automatic as breathing for most people. Ask a 4 year old if they ate a cookie they weren't supposed to. If they lie, they are future management material. No doubt it was someone higher up that immediately released a story that he fired on the Police.

Oh well, another mundane shot in his home in front of his family. Unless you are Osama Bin Laden, no ones cares.

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## heavenlyboy34

Ah, I accidentally started another thread about this story.  Wish I'd known about this thread before. /facepalm @ self.  Yeah, it's a sad and disgusting thing those cops did.    The place where that happened is only about 30-60 minutes south of me.

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## Brian4Liberty

Let's play count the lies!

Here's number 1.



> initially saying he had fired on officers


And 2.



> The department says SWAT members were clear when identifying themselves while entering the home.


And 3.



> Lt. Michael O'Connor of the Pima County Sheriff's Department. "We went lights and sirens and we absolutely did not do a 'no-knock' warrant."


And 4.



> "The suspect said, 'I've got something for you,' when he saw them," O'Connor said. Guerena's wife denied he said that.

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## Acala

This is a small price to pay to keep drugs out of the hands of children - including the children who just had their father murdered in front of them.

Oh, and just a reminder, this is the SWAT team under the control of Sheriff Dupnik, recently famous as the Sheriff who blamed the shooting of Gabby Giffords on anti-government rhetoric.

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## Occam's Banana

> Oh well, another mundane shot in his home in front of his family. Unless you are Osama Bin Laden, no ones cares.


The point you make is as horrifying & sad as it is true - which is "very."

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## pcosmar

> Let's play count the lies!
> 
> 
> And 4.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They will just stop leaving live witnesses.

Expect it.

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## KCIndy

> Deputies said they seized a "large sum of money from another house" that morning. But they refused to say from which of the homes searched that morning they found narcotics, drug ledgers or drug paraphernalia. Court documents showing what was being sought and was found have not been made public. A computer check on Guerena revealed a couple of traffic tickets and no criminal history.


Nice to see we live in an age of open, honest government.

How much does anyone want to bet that this turns out to be ANOTHER "oops, wrong house" scenario??





> Guerena was a Tucson native and Flowing Wells High School graduate. He joined the U.S. Marines in 2002. He served two tours in Iraq in 2003 and 2005 as part of the Yuma-based MWSS-173 under direct supervision of Master Sgt. Leo Verdugo.
> 
> Verdugo was with Guerena's family Tuesday afternoon. He gave them a Marine Corps jacket and gloves to use at Guerena's burial.
> 
> "He was an excellent Marine, with a bright future ahead of him," Verdugo said.
> 
> "We had just bought a home and he was working graveyard shifts and overtime just to help pay the bills, we were just starting to make this house our home," Vanessa Guerena said.


Yep.

Sure sounds like a drug dealer.  Everyone knows those nasty dope dealers bust their asses working 12 hour shifts in mines, because of course that's where the real money is.

The cops in this case aren't just idiots.  They're murderers.  If there was any justice left in the world, everyone who fired a shot in this case would be doing prison time.

I'm not going to hold my breath.

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## Brian4Liberty

> They will just stop leaving live witnesses.


No doubt. They will double-tap Fido too, in case he's one of those talking dogs they show on YouTube.

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## Brian4Liberty

There are only two scenarios where the Police could be telling the truth about using sirens and announcing themselves:

1) Suicide by cop - No way. The guy was asleep, and the contact was initiated by the Police in the first place.
2) Wanted to fight the Police to the death - No way. He didn't fire a shot.

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## Occam's Banana

> The place where that happened is only about 30-60 minutes south of me.


Yikes! But given how this sort of thing seems to be happening more often, all around the country, I don't suppose you're in any greater danger than the rest of us are.

At least a dog was the only fatality in my own hometown's most (in)famous example of jack-booted thuggery.

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## KCIndy

> There are only two scenarios where the Police could be telling the truth about using sirens and announcing themselves:
> 
> 1) Suicide by cop - No way. The guy was asleep, and the contact was initiated by the Police in the first place.
> 2) Wanted to fight the Police to the death - No way. He didn't fire a shot.



I think all the evidence clearly points to (yet another) law enforcement ****up in which they've very likely targeted the wrong house.

Now that someone's dead, it's going to be CYA time and they'll do their very best to smear the integrity of the victim.  Otherwise it would be their own jobs - and asses - on the line, and of course that isn't acceptable.  

To me, the common sense of this is inescapable:

* If the guy had been a big time drug dealer making lots of cash, why in hell would he be working 12 hour shifts in a mine?  That's damn hard work.

* It clearly was NOT a "lights and sirens" raid - see Brian4Liberty's above post.

* The Sheriff's Dept. admits the deputies were IN the house when they shot Guerena.  I find it very hard to believe that a Marine with two tours of duty in Iraq would not get off a single shot when guys are coming through is door.  I'm guessing he realized at the last second that the intruders were law enforcement and he held his fire.  *If he had truly meant to fire on the officers, at least one or two would be dead.*

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## FortisKID

These cops deserve nothing less than execution. This is flat-out MURDER.

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## GunnyFreedom

This gentleman was no less a Marine the day he died than he was while on active duty.  There is no such thing as an ex Marine, except maybe for actual treason. (against the Constitution, that is)

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## heavenlyboy34

> Yikes! But given how this sort of thing seems to be happening more often, all around the country, *I don't suppose you're in any greater danger than the rest of us are.*
> 
> At least a dog was the only fatality in my own hometown's most (in)famous example of jack-booted thuggery.


I dunno about that.  Phoenix PD are pretty well known for their brutality. http://tucsoncitizen.com/three-sonor...hocking-video/ 
They've even been the stars of the show "Cops" a few times.  
This murder was just reported today: http://www.kpho.com/news/25391310/detail.html

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## hillbilly123069

Oh well, another mundane shot in his home in front of his family. Unless you are Osama Bin Laden, no ones cares.[/QUOTE]

You put too much faith in the media. People care.

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## heavenlyboy34

> Yikes! But given how this sort of thing  seems to be happening more often, all around the country, I don't  suppose you're in any greater danger than the rest of us are.
> 
> At  least a dog was the only fatality in  my own hometown's most  (in)famous example of jack-booted thuggery.


btw, I watched that vid.  It's $#@!ing outrageous and tragic at the same time.

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## Pericles

People - remember that this is Pima County - and who is the sheriff?


Heightened and "vitriolic" political  rhetoric is being blamed by some for the kind of violence that landed  Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords in intensive care following a mass  casualty shooting on Saturday, but others say a blame game is hardly  appropriate or useful right now.
  Pima County, Ariz., Sheriff Clarence Dupnik  sparked much of the debate during a press conference Saturday evening in  which he blamed talk radio and television for a decline in America.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...#ixzz1M74ZW89o

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## AFPVet

You see... this is why no knock warrants should be illegal. The man has a right to defend himself. What if he didn't have time to call 911 when some thugs burst through the door? He only had time to grab a rifle to defend his family with. Not everyone has ADT automated cellular security systems.... Are they going to mandate that we all have ADT cellular systems now?

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## Indy Vidual

> ...
> Can anyone seriously claim we are not living in a murderous police state?
> ...


Getting way too routine, the shock value is gone.
What can we do? 
Are there any groups, or people, trying to sue the local and state Governments, to possibly _"fight back"_ financially?

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## Mini-Me

When on earth are people going to start demanding accountability for these murders?!?

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## amy31416

> When on earth are people going to start demanding accountability for these murders?!?


I read the article earlier today, and I really don't understand the wife's comment that she "just wants answers about why it happened." I'd be looking for a hell of a lot more than answers, and they wouldn't have one good enough anyways.

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## heavenlyboy34

> When on earth are people going to start demanding accountability for these murders?!?


when it gets too bad to ignore.  Kinda like the debt crisis.  Joe Average in his McMansion didn't give a $#@! till the collapse.

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## AFPVet

So is it going to take the 1960's all over again? I am sure that there are more than enough to march the streets like they did... even more!

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## heavenlyboy34

> So is it going to take the 1960's all over again? I am sure that there are more than enough to march the streets like they did... even more!


 Especially considering a LOT of folks are unemployed/underemployed now.

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## Indy Vidual

> When on earth are people going to start demanding accountability for these murders?!?


RIP innocent victims: 
Anyone know about cases where the families are suing the town and state for large amounts?

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## doodle

Incredible.

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## ivflight

I'm not sure fighting back financially does much.

Makes me sad to think about it, but I don't think things have been pushed nearly far enough to get a real reaction to this kind of thing.  I really feel like things are going to have to be pushed so far that neighbors are willing to put their butts on the line for each other.  Right now Americans have too much to lose so fighting back isn't worth it.  When the cops have to call in the military to shutdown multiple city blocks at a time just so they can knock down a door without getting shot in the back from across the street, then we might get the proper political action to put an end to the mess.

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## AFPVet

> I'm not sure fighting back financially does much.
> 
> Makes me sad to think about it, but I don't think things have been pushed nearly far enough to get a real reaction to this kind of thing.  I really feel like things are going to have to be pushed so far that neighbors are willing to put their butts on the line for each other.  Right now Americans have too much to lose so fighting back isn't worth it.  When the cops have to call in the military to shutdown multiple city blocks at a time just so they can knock down a door without getting shot in the back from across the street, then we might get the proper political action to put an end to the mess.



How many people did they have in the 60's? My guess is that they didn't have near the political foot print which we have today!

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## ivflight

> How many people did they have in the 60's? My guess is that they didn't have near the political foot print which we have today!


How many did who have?

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## HOLLYWOOD

Now you have to put Video Cameras in your Cars, Homes and bodies to record the tyranny and totalitarian control.

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## Occam's Banana

Via William Grigg @ LRC.com

Story source is HERE.

(emphasis mine)

TUCSON (KGUN9-TV) - 9 On Your Side has  uncovered startling new  information in the case of a man SWAT team  members killed Thursday.

 Medical attention was standing by to try to save Jose Guereña.

 Paramedics waited more than an hour.

 Then deputies sent them away

 By then Guereña was dead.

 The Pima Sheriff's Department says its SWAT team was trying to  serve warrants for a drug investigation.

 Deputies say when they broke open the door at  Jose Guereña's house  they found him crouched in the hall, with an  assault rifle pointed at  them.

 They concede now Guerena didn't fire, but five deputies did.

 His wife Vanessa told KGUN9 she called 911 and pleaded with deputies to treat his wounds.

 "The only thing I told him was take care of him, take him to a hospital..."

 KGUN 9 News requested the emergency call records for Drexel Heights Fire Rescue.
*
The 911 call center notified Drexel Heights at 9:43am.*

*  A unit arrived just two minutes later at 9:45.*

*But deputies told rescue workers to stay put.*  That's standard to be sure they won't walk into danger.

 But *they waited until 10:59.*  Then heard the  radio call "Code 900",  that means *they were no longer needed because the  person was dead*.

*One hour and 14 minutes went by.*  Drexel Heights indicates *they were never allowed to even examine Jose Guereña*.

 Compare that to the January 8th Mass  Shooting.  Deputies held back  ambulance and fire crews there.  But even  in all the chaos decided it  was safe for emergency medical crews to  enter after just 12 minutes.

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## heavenlyboy34

> Via William Grigg @ LRC.com
> 
> Story source is HERE.
> 
> TUCSON (KGUN9-TV) - 9 On Your Side has  uncovered startling new  information in the case of a man SWAT team  members killed Thursday.
> 
>  Medical attention was standing by to try to save Jose Guereña.
> 
>  Paramedics waited more than an hour.
> ...

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## devil21

Gotta cover those tracks.  Can't have the guy alive long enough to say the wrong thing about what really happened.

Did they hit the wrong house?  Or did the cops just get a bogus warrant based on fraudulent affidavits on the word of someone else?

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## iGGz

F'ed up

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## Pericles

Once they come for you, there is nothing else left to lose:

"And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have  been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make  an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to  say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as  for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire  city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror  at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the  staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had  boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people  with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs  would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport  and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would  have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even  more  we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and  simply deserved everything that happened afterward."      
         Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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## heavenlyboy34

> Once they come for you, there is nothing else left to lose:
> 
> "And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have  been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make  an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to  say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as  for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire  city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror  at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the  staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had  boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people  with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs  would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport  and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would  have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even  more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and  simply deserved everything that happened afterward."      
>  —        Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn


Great quote.  Everyone on these boards should read Solzhenitsyn-especially "A Day In The Life of Ivan Denisovich" and "The Gulag Archipelago", IMO.

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## GuerrillaXXI

Sadly, this Marine learned the hard way that the true enemies of the Constitution he swore to protect and defend aren't overseas. No one in Iraq, Afghanistan, or anywhere else abroad is an enemy of the American Bill of Rights. Those enemies are all right here at home. Who's gonna do anything about it?




> I'm guessing he realized at the last second that the intruders were law enforcement and he held his fire.  *If he had truly meant to fire on the officers, at least one or two would be dead.*


It's too bad that didn't happen. I understand that a man with a family that depends on him for financial and emotional support is going to be reluctant to risk his life against multiple armed intruders, and that's probably why he didn't open up on those pigs. I can't blame him, given the position he was in with his family and so forth, but he ended up giving his life anyway. 

This might be a harsh lesson for anyone else who is the victim of a raid like this: don't expect to be spared just because you give up. They might simply shoot you anyway and then cover up the shooting with lies, as was done here. And even if your life is spared, expect your wife and kids to get bitchslapped around in front of you. The pigs will do it because they _can_.

Until the pigs start facing REAL accountability for their thuggery, either through the judicial system (fat chance) or otherwise, they are going to continue doing whatever they please to the citizens of this country. Why shouldn't they? No one has any rights he isn't willing to fight, kill, and die for; he'll shut up and do as he's told by those who _are_ willing to use armed force.

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## AFPVet

> How many did who have?


I suppose I could google the numbers for the demonstrations of many group activists in the 1960's.

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## Anti Federalist

> But deputies told rescue workers to stay put. That's standard to be sure they won't walk into danger


Look, I'm not going to rant, nor rave...I did that days ago when I blew up over similar story that was related to me personally.

But here's the deal: the dynamics of how police, legally, deal with us mundanes has been changed.

The force continuum has been altered, it is now circular rather than vertically oriented.

What does that mean to us common folk?

It means that government has fundamentally changed how it's front line enforcers react and deal with citizens. 

Let me be absolutely clear here: if an officer feels that "officer safety" is in jeopardy, he is now legally and civilly authorized, as this poor fellow found out, to blow you away like lint. That will also be the excuse used to let you bleed out and die in front of your screaming wife and kids. And who knows? If they make a move, they'll get blown away as well.

Let me be as blunt and clear as I can be about this as well: 

*DO NOT CALL COPS FOR ANY REASON.

DO NOT TALK TO COPS FOR ANY REASON.*

These people have now made it clear, by their actions over and over and over again over the last 20 years or so, that they are nothing more than members of a vicious occupying army.

Interaction with these people can prove fatal.

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## Anti Federalist

> Now you have to put Video Cameras in your Cars, Homes and bodies to record the tyranny and totalitarian control.


Good idea, then the cops have something to laugh about down at the station later.

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## GuerrillaXXI

^^^ Notice how not a single cop in that video listening to Sgt. $#@!head talk _didn't_ laugh about the woman getting shot in the face. They're all one and the same. The coward who shot that lady in the face for no good reason -- who risked putting out her eye and even possibly killing her -- could have just as easily been anyone in that department. They're a big gang that sticks together like glue and covers for each other, so they're all guilty by association. Besides, what decent person would want to associate with evil pricks like those?

That's why I was glad to hear of the Miami pigs who got wasted a few months ago. They think it's funny when citizens get hurt? I think it's funny when pigs get hurt. And karma is a real bitch.

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## aGameOfThrones

Motherfuckers!!!

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## Occam's Banana

Sherriff's Office interview on fatal SWAT raid

Video is @ upper right corner of article.
Article contains excerpts from video.




> O'Connor:  "Part of what was going on is that this house, the interior  of this house is, the walls are somewhat darker color.  The roof is  painted a very dark color.  So when the officers came in, they saw they  were confronted with a very dark room.  This individual was in a hallway  looking right at them, crouched with a weapon.  When they saw this and  the weapon coming up and he made that statement, some of the officers  began to fire that are in this cone -- right at the front door -- began  to fire.  Some of the officers hit the door frame and there was  splintering at the door frame as they were firing.  This was falling on  some of the other officers.  One of the officers has a shield, and when  he fired, he starts to fall backwards.  Some of the officers thought  that officer had been shot, and were starting to drag him out of the  fray.  So this was a very dynamic scene, a very dangerous situation for  the officers that were there, and obviously dangerous for the victim,  *this individual who was shot, who brought this all on himself by  presenting himself the way he did.  There is no way around it.  We have  to serve search warrants. It's a part of our job.  We do the best we can  of making it apparent that this is what we are doing.  But sometimes  people have reasons for doing what they do.  I can't explain it.*"


[emphasis mine]

So ... in order to serve search warrants, stormtroopers with fully-automatic weapons must be deployed in full assault mode. Having a detective accompanied by a sherriff's deputy or two just walk up to the door, knock, serve the warrant and search the place is apparently out of the question.

And if someone dies, it's the victim's fault. The cops were just "doing their jobs," just "following orders."

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## EndDaFed

All those fruitcakes that support the war on drugs should have a share of the blame. Those so called moral dogooders are more than happy to see families killed in drug raids. They're a bunch of blood lust crazies that love violence. Next time you see one of those jackasses posting on the Internet show them stories like the one in this thread and call them out on their craziness.

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## Occam's Banana

http://www.kgun9.com/story/14621212/...se-says-family

Video @ upper right corner of article




> On Tuesday, candles and tributes to Guerena could be seen outside his  home.  Family members said the 26-year-old former Marine served two  tours of duty in Iraq.  A smashed window and a barrage of bullet holes  might be the type of scene a battle-hardened Marine would find in a war  zone but not the Tucson home he shared with his two children and wife.   Guerena's wife, Vanessa, said her husband died thinking he was  protecting his family from an invasion.

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## Occam's Banana

wife of suspect killed in SWAT raid speaks out

Video @ upper right corner of article.
Article contains excerpts from video.




> Guerena:  "The last thing I thought I was gonna see was Jose on the  floor with all this blood and stuff.  And he was just saying, 'Uh, uh.'   And I couldn't help him.  So I called the 911 to have the ambulance.   And they told me they were on their way."


(note: see  post 32)
 



> Guerena:  "By that moment, I was like, they're gonna take care of him,  they're gonna take him to the hospital.  And I was like calm at that  point.  But after two or three hours they told me, 'I'm sorry, but your  husband passed away."





> Guerena:  "He never talked to me.  The last words that he told me were,  'Vanny, go into the closet.  That's it.  If I wouldn't listen to him,  Oh, My  God.  I would have been killed too... They would have killed me  too, and my kid."

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## Occam's Banana

http://www.kgun9.com/story/14629449/...hires-attorney

Video @ upper right corner of article.




> Christopher Scileppi is representing the family of Jose Guerena.  Guerena, a former Marine, was killed May 5, after a SWAT team entered  his home.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Scileppi criticized the sheriff's department  for changing their story about what happened inside the house. At a news  conference Wednesday, Scileppi said,"Yesterday the story changed yet  again, contending Jose was crouching down and said 'I got something for  you.'" He added,"Which of these stories are true or whether any of these  stories are true, nobody knows at this point."
> 
>  As for the hour and 14 minutes paramedics  waited to treat Guerena before ultimately being sent away, Scileppi said  he'll investigate that, too.
> 
>  "We're going to be investigating every and all aspects of this case," Scileppi added.

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## Mani

Next time they won't make that mistake again.  They will get rid of the wife as well, then there won't be anyone left to sue.  

How hard would it be to say, "She jumped out of the closet in a threatening way...the officers had to make a split second decision to protect themselves....She brought it upon herself by startling and threatening the officers..."      I'm freaked out just by typing it because I feel it could easily become true.

 And the children will be handed over to the state, perfect future recruits or subjects.

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## JK/SEA

Well, it appears its waay past time sending in troops like this for whatever reason, and that 'they' start using helicopters to just drop 20 lbs of C4 through the roof. It would solve a lot of 'problems'...


smoking a bowl before bed?...BOOOM!
ran a stop sign?...BOOOM!
dog barking?...yep..ciao
domestic spat?...yer a goner..
innocent Military vet....gotta go, sorry bubba....BOOOM, AND BOOOM...

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## AFPVet

> Well, it appears its waay past time sending in troops like this for whatever reason, and that 'they' start using helicopters to just drop 20 lbs of C4 through the roof. It would solve a lot of 'problems'...
> 
> 
> smoking a bowl before bed?...BOOOM!
> ran a stop sign?...BOOOM!
> dog barking?...yep..ciao
> domestic spat?...yer a goner..
> innocent Military vet....gotta go, sorry bubba....BOOOM, AND BOOOM...


Breneke slugs would make good work out of inbound choppers

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## GuerrillaXXI

> Breneke slugs would make good work out of inbound choppers


I don't think an ordinary shotgun slug will penetrate even a Level IIIA soft body armor vest unless it's a sabot slug. Too soft, blunt, and slow. I guess how well it would work on a chopper would depend on how the chopper was armored.

However, it might be possible to modify a Brenneke slug by drilling a cavity and inserting some tungsten carbide drill rod. Assuming the modification was done properly such that the slug was stable in flight and so forth, that might really do a job on armor. It would actually be legal to construct such slugs, so there'd be no need to hide one's experimentation with them.

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## AFPVet

> I don't think an ordinary shotgun slug will penetrate even a Level IIIA soft body armor vest unless it's a sabot slug. Too soft, blunt, and slow. I guess how well it would work on a chopper would depend on how the chopper was armored.
> 
> However, it might be possible to modify a Brenneke slug by drilling a cavity and inserting some tungsten carbide drill rod. Assuming the modification was done properly such that the slug was stable in flight and so forth, that might really do a job on armor. It would actually be legal to construct such slugs, so there'd be no need to hide one's experimentation with them.


Interestingly, I have heard about a Brenneke (hard slug) going through a level IIIA face shield, so anything's possible....

With most choppers being thin skinned, a Brenneke should have enough KO within range... unless we are talking about a gunship

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## GuerrillaXXI

> Actually to answer your question about level IIIA soft body armor, any 12 gauge slug will blow right through with no problem at all due to the force per area (2500-3010 ft/lbs). You would need a level III hard plate to protect against a 12 gauge slug (even foster).


Sorry AFPVet, but I know for a fact that you're mistaken about this. Many (non-sabot) shotgun slugs will NOT go through IIIA soft armor. Lots of tests have been done by police departments and random individuals, such as this one:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16_4.htm

I've also seen at least one photo of a cop with a nasty bruise (and possibly one or more broken ribs) had after his soft armor stopped a 12 gauge slug.

The reason the slug doesn't go through in spite of its high energy is that it's too blunt and deformable. A lot of that energy ends up getting spent flattening the slug and deforming the vest rather than cutting through the vest's fibers (or pushing the fibers aside).

You can find discussion of many more such tests with a Google search. One interesting test showed that a 12 gauge slug wasn't capable of penetrating a PASGT helmet, but it crushed the helmet in by 5 or 6 inches, so the impact probably would have been fatal anyway.

I think you might be right about 12 gauge slugs being a Level III threat, but if so, that's because of the blunt trauma. Lower-level armor should stop the slug, but the backface deformation of the armor is unacceptable by the NIJ standards.

Would something like a Brenneke Black Magic Magnum make it through a IIIA vest? Maybe. I've never heard about any test like that, but those slugs are said to be made of a harder alloy than regular slugs. I'd still be interested in modifying one as mentioned earlier to see if it could punch through hard armor.




> Choppers are generally thin skinned unless we are talking about an armored military unit. Furthermore, they do have armor piercing slugs as well.... I am using myself as a source here through experience.


Yeah, I suspect a regular helicopter without any armor would be pretty vulnerable to slugs.

----------


## AFPVet

> Sorry AFPVet, but I know for a fact that you're mistaken about this. Many (non-sabot) shotgun slugs will NOT go through IIIA soft armor. Lots of tests have been done by police departments and random individuals, such as this one:
> 
> http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16_4.htm


They didn't test the Brenneke did they? Even so, the person on the other end would be having a bad day regardless

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## GuerrillaXXI

> They didn't test the Brenneke did they? Even so, the person on the other end would be having a bad day regardless


You piqued my curiosity about the Brenneke, so I just did a search and found this:




> There were some 3" Brennekes that punched through some thin level IIIa panels a few years ago, but in general, depending on the slug and armor type, we have seen many slugs stopped by level IIIa armor.


http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=20586&page=2

The poster who wrote the above is someone who does a lot of ballistics testing for police and military, so he's a pretty reliable source. Apparently the bigger Brennekes _can_ go through some Level IIIA vests. A sabot slug will still penetrate much more reliably, though. One police department did a test of a copper sabot slug versus a Level IIIA Body Bunker (one of those handheld ballistic shields the SWAT pigs use), and it easily penetrated.

And yeah, even if that Brenneke didn't penetrate, it would still hurt like a mother, probably dropping the recipient and setting him up for a head shot. Those on the above thread who are saying that "a bullet doesn't hit the target any harder than the rifle hits you" don't know what they're talking about. That's a myth repeated by people who don't understand physics. The recoil energy of the gun is MUCH less than the energy of the flying projectile, even though they have equal and opposite momentum. That's because most of the chemical energy of the burning propellant gets imparted to the projectile rather than the gun.

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## AFPVet

> You piqued my curiosity about the Brenneke, so I just did a search and found this:
> 
> 
> http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=20586&page=2
> 
> The poster who wrote the above is someone who does a lot of ballistics testing for police and military, so he's a pretty reliable source. Apparently the bigger Brennekes _can_ go through some Level IIIA vests. A sabot slug will still penetrate much more reliably, though. One police department did a test of a copper sabot slug versus a Level IIIA Body Bunker (one of those handheld ballistic shields the SWAT pigs use), and it easily penetrated.
> 
> And yeah, even if that Brenneke didn't penetrate, it would still hurt like a mother, probably dropping the recipient and setting him up for a head shot. Those on the above thread who are saying that "a bullet doesn't hit the target any harder than the rifle hits you" don't know what they're talking about. That's a myth repeated by people who don't understand physics. The recoil energy of the gun is MUCH less than the energy of the flying projectile, even though they have equal and opposite momentum. That's because most of the chemical energy of the burning propellant gets imparted to the projectile rather than the gun.


Interesting! Thanks for the info! The last time I heard about slug versus vest was about 10 years ago.... Maybe it was the sabot slugs which I read about defeating soft body armor come to think of it. 

Yeah the whole recoil force versus projectile force doesn't take into account the weight of the weapon which absorbs a good amount as well as other factors... the projectile has a lot more force than what you feel!

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## GuerrillaXXI

No problem.  I was interested to read that about the Brenneke slugs, too.

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## Brian4Liberty

Back on the original subject of this thread, I asked a couple of LEOs the other day about this home invasion incident. Of course it's a job so them, and they say "yeah screw-ups and cover-ups" happen, but the other interesting thing is that because of that knowledge, their biggest fear is being shot by the Police themselves, when they are off duty. They know what would happen if the SWAT team hits their house by mistake, and it scares them. Obviously, they would be in the hallway in their underwear with a gun, and they would get ventilated. They are also afraid of incidents like the Nevada Costco shooting, where the same thing would happen to them. Their advise is hands in the air, and don't move, no matter what they are yelling or the CCP training says to do...

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## JK/SEA

> Back on the original subject of this thread, I asked a couple of LEOs the other day about this home invasion incident. Of course it's a job so them, and they say "yeah screw-ups and cover-ups" happen, but the other interesting thing is that because of that knowledge, their biggest fear is being shot by the Police themselves, when they are off duty. They know what would happen if the SWAT team hits their house by mistake, and it scares them. Obviously, they would be in the hallway in their underwear with a gun, and they would get ventilated. They are also afraid of incidents like the Nevada Costco shooting, where the same thing would happen to them. Their advise is hands in the air, and don't move, no matter what they are yelling or the CCP training says to do...


Yeah, and it turns out to be 5-6 young punks with shotguns that rape your wife, take the jewels and silver and anything else not hidden well, and beat you senseless or kill you on the way out. Your last thoughts might be..''$#@!'' shoulda grabbed the glock when i had the chance''...

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## AFPVet

Alternatively, you could install customized security with a safe room filled with all of the 'goodies' you need. If it turns out to be the legitimate $#@! team, at least you aren't shot, if it is not, you can take appropriate measures.

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## Mani

I never thought I would see the day *when you are in your own home and the best advice is*, "Hands in the air..."  WTF happened to this country.

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## Brian4Liberty

> Yeah, and it turns out to be 5-6 young punks with shotguns that rape your wife, take the jewels and silver and anything else not hidden well, and beat you senseless or kill you on the way out. Your last thoughts might be..''$#@!'' shoulda grabbed the glock when i had the chance''...


Actually, the hands in the air was for situations where you know it's the cops, like the Costco shooting.

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## JK/SEA

> Actually, the hands in the air was for situations where you know it's the cops, like the Costco shooting.


Right. So now all these punks know all they gotta do is yell... THIS IS THE POLICE!....then bust the door down. Like taking candy from a baby.

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## pcosmar

> Actually, the hands in the air was for situations where you know it's the cops, like the Costco shooting.


How do you know the cops are not there to kill you?
Our government has just demonstrated that they will kill without trial . And that troops will be ordered to do so.

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## GuerrillaXXI

> How do you know the cops are not there to kill you?
> Our government has just demonstrated that they will kill without trial . And that troops will be ordered to do so.


Or they could be there to rob you of your freedom, i.e., arrest you for doing something you had every right to do, even if it's against the "law." To me that's almost as bad, if not worse, than being killed outright. To have one's rights taken away is to be stripped of one's dignity and reduced to the level of a slave or a domestic animal.

We have no rights we're not willing to defend by force, even to the point of death.

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## LibertyRising

My question is this: When will the murderers by arrested, tried, convicted, sentenced, and executed or sentenced to life at hard labor? What's that you say? The fox is guarding the hen house, and won't act against another fox? Shocking!

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## BUSHLIED

reading these stories makes me angry...there has got to be more details to this case. Was it the wrong house? What probable cause did they have for the person? Do they always use SWAT for serving a warrant? Or was this an arrest warrant and they were coming in with overwhelming force to subdue him? why would a marine jeopardize his family by picking up the rifle if he knew he was guilty of a drug crime and the SWAT would come in to get him...

based on what I have read so far, sounds like the COPS $#@!ed up. Why not surround the house and knock on the door, and maintain a perimeter...why risk going inside the house when you dont have to? 

i hope more details emerge.

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## BUSHLIED

alternatively because he served in IRAQ, where they go house to house...he could have had PTSD...he was sleeping, he could have just jumped into fight mode...I wonder how long he had been home from IRAQ...

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## pcosmar

> alternatively because he served in IRAQ, where they go house to house...he could have had PTSD...he was sleeping, he could have just jumped into fight mode...I wonder how long he had been home from IRAQ...


 According to the story, he was working in the mines to support his family and pay his mortgage.
Would a man making money from lucrative drug trade be working long hours, doing hard labor to support his family?

The Police ARE $#@!ed up.

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## PineGroveDave

This is wrong on so many levels. The warrant was a search warrant, yet they sent in a SWAT team with guns drawn. The wife saw a man outside the window with a gun and yelled out to her husband who then, like I would have done, told her to go hide. He grabbed a weapon and prepared to defend his home against a possible intruder(s)...Exactly as I would have done. He paid for his act with his life.

And now, the Sheriff Dept. is trying to cover up the entire mess through obfuscation, lies, doublespeak, backtracking...a plethora of excuses. Sheriff Dupnik (the same guy who placed the blame for the Giffords shooting on the Tea Party and Sarah Palin) has gone so far as to chastise the media for having the audacity to question their actions!

They're now stating that they found guns, body armor, and a "partial" cop uniform that was reason enough for the "search" as this was a search warrant, not an arrest warrant. Since when is it illegal to own guns and body armor and/or a piece of a LEO uniform (if that was even in their house to begin with if you get my meaning)? Interestingly enough, they have now sealed the records with the warrant stating what they were looking for so now the public cannot find out...CYA anyone?
http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crim...88ac67e86.html

This was cold blooded murder...period.

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## Philhelm

> alternatively because he served in IRAQ, where they go house to house...he could have had PTSD...he was sleeping, he could have just jumped into fight mode...I wonder how long he had been home from IRAQ...


I think that's the Hollywood version of PTSD.

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## Pericles

> Or they could be there to rob you of your freedom, i.e., arrest you for doing something you had every right to do, even if it's against the "law." To me that's almost as bad, if not worse, than being killed outright. To have one's rights taken away is to be stripped of one's dignity and reduced to the level of a slave or a domestic animal.
> 
> We have no rights we're not willing to defend by force, even to the point of death.


*Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!*  *Patrick Henry - March 23, 1775*

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## doodle

Incredible, such cases are increasing lately.

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## AFPVet

> http://www.infowars.com/the-changing...rth-amendment/
> John W. Whitehead
> LewRockwell.com
> May 24, 2011
> 
> Now, one of the most essential branches of English liberty is the freedom of ones house. A mans house is his castle; and while he is quiet, he is as well guarded as a prince in his castle. This writ, if it should be declared legal, would totally annihilate this privilege. Customhouse officers may enter our houses when they please; we are commanded to permit their entry. Their menial servants may enter, may break locks, bars, and everything in their way; and whether they break through malice or revenge, no man, no court can inquire. Bare suspicion without oath is sufficient. ~ James Otis
> 
> In early America, citizens were considered equals with law enforcement officials. Authorities were rarely permitted to enter ones home without permission or in a deceitful manner. And it was not uncommon for police officers to be held personally liable for trespass when they wrongfully invaded a citizens home. Unlike today, early Americans could resist arrest when a police officer tried to restrain them without proper justification or a warrant  which the police had to allow citizens to read before arresting them. (Daring to dispute a warrant with a police official today who is armed with high-tech military weapons and tasers would be nothing short of suicidal.) This clear demand for a right to privacy was not a byproduct of simpler times. Much like today, early Americans dealt with problems such as petty thievery, murder and attacks by foreign enemies. Rather, the demand for privacy stemmed from a harbored suspicion of law enforcement officials and the unbridled discretion they could abuse.
> 
> The Fourth Amendment, which assures that the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, was included in the Bill of Rights in response to the oppressive way British soldiers treated American colonists through their use of Writs of Assistance. These were court orders that authorized British agents to conduct general searches of premises for contraband. The exact nature of the materials being sought did not have to be detailed, nor did their locations. The powerful new court orders enabled government officials to inspect not only shops and warehouses, but also private homes. These searches resulted in the violation of many of the colonists rights and the destruction of much of the colonists personal property. It quickly became apparent to many colonists that their homes were no longer their castles.


This is so true. I grow exceedingly sickened every time I hear about excessive and wrongful use of force.

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## Lucille

Balko's first piece on HuffPo is on this atrocity.

Jose Guerena Killed: Arizona Cops Shoot Former Marine In Botched Pot Raid 




> To buy what Storie is pitching, you would have to believe that Guerena -- the father of two young boys, who was working a night job to save money for a new home, who had no criminal record, who served two tours of duty in Iraq and was honorably discharged -- knowingly took on a team of armored, well-armed police officers, himself armed only with his rifle, and with his wife and young child still in the home. You'd also have to believe that the battle-tested former Marine forgot to turn off his weapon's safety before the shooting began.
> [....]
> Perhaps we will at some point see convincing evidence that Dupnik and Storie are right -- that Jose Guerena was in fact a drug dealer and violent criminal who dressed up like a cop to rob rival drug dealers and innocent citizens of Pima County. But at this point, all we have is a dead father and veteran, a violent series of raids that make little sense, and a police agency that over the last three weeks has put out incorrect information, insisted that it would be dangerous to release any further information, and, at the same time, allowed a police representative to release information favorable to the department.
> 
> The government of Pima County has killed one of its own citizens. This is the most serious, solemn, and severe action a local government can undertake. It demands complete transparency. The Pima County Sheriff's Department and other agencies involved in the raid ought to doing anything and everything to make themselves accountable. Instead, they've shown arrogance, defiance, and obstinacy -- all wrapped in an appeal to public safety.

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## nobody's_hero

If you don't have anything planned for the weekend . . . 

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2011/05/..._-tucson-info/

You don't have to be a member of the military to attend. The public is invited but Oathkeepers is asking that you not bring signs.

Sheriff Mack is supposed to be there in the afternoon. 

If anyone can go and get video of this, it would be greatly appreciated.

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## ammorris

> Balko's first piece on HuffPo is on this atrocity.
> 
> Jose Guerena Killed: Arizona Cops Shoot Former Marine In Botched Pot Raid


Balko shredded the department's explanation of what happened.  This is some of his best work, and that's saying something.  Hopefully some sort of justice will come of it.

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## ammorris

UPDATE: There is video.




Source: http://www.theagitator.com/2011/05/2...nty-swat-raid/

My thoughts: yeah, they ran the sirens for a few seconds.  If I were sound asleep in my home, I would probably assume that someone's car alarm had been bumped, not that the police were about to break down my door.  Quick (and rather quiet) knock, no audible announcement, and go in shooting.  That's a lot of shots to fire at someone who did not once fire back.

Comment of the day: "Someone gave the Keystone Kops green tactical garb."

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## AFPVet

CNN just had this on. It looks like CNN is taking the side of the victims which is nice to see for a change. I saw many problems with this....

1. The 'siren' sounded like a car alarm
2. The $#@! team didn't even positively assess the situation
3. The team opened up from outside of the residence. 

Now while they did announce themselves, we have seen this happen before with criminals. ...another thing, anyone can buy Police and SWAT patches to put on some BDU's as well as kevlar helmets, vests and AR-15's.

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## Pericles

> CNN just had this on. It looks like CNN is taking the side of the victims which is nice to see for a change. I saw many problems with this....
> 
> 1. The 'siren' sounded like a car alarm
> 2. The $#@! team didn't even positively assess the situation
> 3. The team opened up from outside of the residence. 
> 
> Now while they did announce themselves, we have seen this happen before with criminals. ...another thing, anyone can buy Police and SWAT patches to put on some BDU's as well as kevlar helmets, vests and AR-15's.


I've heard enough about these things no to be too surprised by 1 and 2 (and 2 was amateurish enough), but 3 is totally wrong, especially the guy who ran up to the door to get into the action and looked like he fired at least once, from behind his own team.

3 was also what got the girl in Detroit(?) killed while the TV crew was along for the ride.

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## olehounddog

Just now today. How long have we known? 2 weeks? Took a while to get the story straight and get it rehearsed.

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## Brian4Liberty

> UPDATE: There is video.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.theagitator.com/2011/05/2...nty-swat-raid/
> 
> My thoughts: yeah, they ran the sirens for a few seconds.  If I were sound asleep in my home, I would probably assume that someone's car alarm had been bumped, not that the police were about to break down my door.  Quick (and rather quiet) knock, no audible announcement, and go in shooting.  That's a lot of shots to fire at someone who did not once fire back.
> 
> Comment of the day: "Someone gave the Keystone Kops green tactical garb."


Yep, the brief "siren" sounded like a car alarm. There is no way that could be called "going in with sirens on". That is a joke.

There was absolutely no time given between the knock and breaking in the door. Most people would still be in bed when they came into the house. Does a "search warrant" automatically mean that they can damage your home? (Rhetorical question, of course the authoritarians on the Supreme Court would be OK with that).

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## AFPVet

> Does a "search warrant" automatically mean that they can damage your home? (Rhetorical question, of course the authoritarians on the Supreme Court would be OK with that).


Well... postal employees $hit on our lawns now.... Yeah... they don't care about private property. Besides, we are just 'renting' from them anyways (property taxes).

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## Krugerrand

I'd like to see his fellow marines stage an armed protest outside some public buildings.  Let's see just how willing the higher ups are willing to stick our their necks to cover their own.

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## Pericles

Got some info on what possibly caused his house to be targeted for the search warrant. 

The $#@! team was checking out the other houses that were raided as part of the drug gang activity a few days before the actual raid took place. Someone noticed an unknown SUV cruising around the neighborhood and thought is suspicious, so he called it in and suggested the plates be run to see who was checking out the neighborhood. That SUV was the $#@! team, and who would like to guess who the citizen caller was? (You won't need 3 guesses)

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## pcosmar

> Got some info on what possibly caused his house to be targeted for the search warrant. 
> 
> The $#@! team was checking out the other houses that were raided as part of the drug gang activity a few days before the actual raid took place. Someone noticed an unknown SUV cruising around the neighborhood and thought is suspicious, so he called it in and suggested the plates be run to see who was checking out the neighborhood. That SUV was the $#@! team, and who would like to guess who the citizen caller was? (You won't need 3 guesses)


Add to the list of,
*Never Call The Police*

for anything.

----------


## Pericles

> Add to the list of,
> *Never Call The Police*
> 
> for anything.


 The life you save by not calling the police may be your own.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> Got some info on what possibly caused his house to be targeted for the search warrant. 
> 
> The $#@! team was checking out the other houses that were raided as part of the drug gang activity a few days before the actual raid took place. Someone noticed an unknown SUV cruising around the neighborhood and thought is suspicious, so he called it in and suggested the plates be run to see who was checking out the neighborhood. That SUV was the $#@! team, and who would like to guess who the citizen caller was? (You won't need 3 guesses)


Wow. Have any sources we can look at?

----------


## Pericles

> Wow. Have any sources we can look at?


Not yet - this is radioactive.

----------


## AFPVet

This never should have happened. Usually law enforcement personnel carry out raids early in the morning or at night (0400 is typical). This 'raid' was done after the victim was relieved. Could it be that the invaders were only able to get the warrant at the time of the strike? Or is there something more....

If this truly was a typical drug raid, why did they strike when the victim was there? If they had been watching, they could have easily searched it while he was away.

This whole thing stinks to high heaven. It didn't have to be.

----------


## AZ Libertarian

Fellow Ron Paulers!

I have been investigating and researching this story since it came to my attention.  I have reported most of it so far, attended the Memorial Day Ceremony in Tucosn, and have read all 500 pages + of the pdf's released, and seen every video and read every article (including _thousands_ of comments).  

Here is my page:

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/THE_R...S.htm?EdNo=202

Scroll about halfway down, and work your way to the top.  There are no less than eight posts, culminating with my YouTube Playlist that will run all 9 of my videos in a row.  I have spent days filling in everyone with what I have found out, and don't want to try and repeat any of it here - I spent 8 HOURS today between the Arizona Breakfast Club (where I was one of the speakers - speaking about this event) and an Arizona Oathkeepers Chapter Meeting - which was held at the same facility, and I'm beat.  I will say that a good portion of the information in this, and the other thread on this issue IS INCORRECT.  I will be back tomorrow, and try and share as much as I can, and answer direct questions.  In the meantime, you may message me with any questions you have now, and let me know if you want me to answer you directly via reply message, or state the question and answer it in the thread.

All I ask is that you keep one thing in mind through all of this:  it doesn't matter what allegations or evidence are alleged in the case of Jose Guerena.  In America, we are all presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law where we can face our accusers and present witnesses in our defense.  This will NEVER be accomplished because he is deceased.  He may be 'guilty as sin' in the Court of Public Opinion...

But tell that to his 4 and 6 year-old sons.

Ed

----------


## JK/SEA

Short of being a murderer on the run hiding behind his wife and kids, Jose did not deserve to be murdered by a bunch of cowards disguised as cops.

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## GunnyFreedom

playing dress up in their green fatigues and body armor, like wannabe soldiers in Iraq but these Nancies get to go home at night and cuddle on Suzy.  Now these keystone jackboots just took down an innocent 'war hero' (but more importantly hero to his own family) who never fired a shot, and any minute now we will be assured by our elected overlords that it's all just business as usual status quo go back to sleep.  damnit America I WANT YOU TO GET *MAD!*

----------


## AFPVet

Sheriff Mack and Oath Keepers are trying to rally the people to engage this serious issue. We will not forget! There needs to be serious law enforcement reform... as well as the end on the joke of a drug war.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Got some info on what possibly caused his house to be targeted for the search warrant. 
> 
> The $#@! team was checking out the other houses that were raided as part of the drug gang activity a few days before the actual raid took place. Someone noticed an unknown SUV cruising around the neighborhood and thought is suspicious, so he called it in and suggested the plates be run to see who was checking out the neighborhood. That SUV was the $#@! team, and who would like to guess who the citizen caller was? (You won't need 3 guesses)


No $#@!.




> Add to the list of,
> *Never Call The Police*
> 
> for anything.


No $#@!!!




> The life you save by not calling the police may be your own.


No $#@!!!!




> Not yet - this is radioactive.


NO $#@!ING $#@!!!!

I mean that, you aren't kidding that *is* radioactive. I would love to see that confirmed. Gonna watch this very closely.

Thanks for posting that.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> playing dress up in their green fatigues and body armor, like wannabe soldiers in Iraq but these Nancies get to go home at night and cuddle on Suzy.  Now these keystone jackboots just took down an innocent 'war hero' (but more importantly hero to his own family) who never fired a shot, and any minute now we will be assured by our elected overlords that it's all just business as usual status quo go back to sleep.  damnit America I WANT YOU TO GET *MAD!*


Sensationalist.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Sensationalist.


 You say that like it's a bad thing.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> You say that like it's a bad thing.


*Some* around here seem to think so. LoL

----------


## aGameOfThrones

> *Some* around here seem to think so. LoL


I might have to call you out.

----------


## Pericles

Bump

----------

