# Lifestyles & Discussion > Personal Health & Well-Being >  Debunking "Primal" Diets: The Starch Solution

## dannno

As someone who has had a lot of lengthy discussions with individuals and has done extensive research on grain based diets vs. so-called "primal" diets, this guy hits a lot of the main points that will debunk the information out there on "primal" diets. The speakers discusses a lot of the same information that people who promote "primal" diets talk about.





I recommend watching the presentation in it's entirety before presenting pro-primal talking points which are likely already debunked in the video.


Just so everybody knows, I was very overweight in high school and lost over 65 lbs in college within 9 months of becoming vegetarian. I have kept the weight off for over 10 years now and am in much better physical condition then I was 10 years ago.

I'm actually not completely vegetarian, I do eat meat on very rare occasions, just as most of our ancestors likely ate meat much more rarely than those who promote the primal diet will try and tell us.

I do not recommend highly processed foods and grains because they can cause insulin spikes which slow down the metabolism and can cause weight gain. This is the crux of the "primal" diet argument. However whole grains such as whole wheat, rice, corn and others do not act in this way and have been staples of every healthy civilization. Together with low-carb vegetables, some (raw when possible) dairy, occasional fish or meat (very rarely, and only bison, venison or game meat) has been optimal for my own health. My take on meat is the harder it is to catch and the lower it is on the food chain, then it is likelier that it is better for you, when you do eat it.

Here are some related threads:

*Vegetarianism all the rage in MMA*
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...*s-you-f*****s!!
*
I'm Going Raw Vegan* (see page 5 for pics of vegan bodybuilders)
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...oing-Raw-Vegan

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## dannno

Bump cause this is a long vid and I wouldn't expect any rebuttals yet, but I want to get more people watching and get the discussion going eventually.

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## heavenlyboy34

Stick to veggies and fruits, danno.  Your body is not made/evolved for high-grain diets.  Ignore the big-agra/FDA complex propaganda that tells you otherwise.  Save the grains for fattening livestock.  ETA: watched some of the vid, and the logic is terrible.  Thoroughly unscientific.

ETA 2: This claim: "However whole grains such as whole wheat, rice, corn and others do not act in this way and have been staples of every healthy civilization." is false.  If you want insulin-resistance and eventually diabetes, feel free to load up on these foods.

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## dannno

> Stick to veggies and fruits, danno.  Your body is not made for grains.  Ignore the big-agra/FDA complex.


I was sticking to tubers for a while for that reason.. but oh man, you of all people should watch the vid.. He makes a really good point about how it seems like the big corporations are out to make ALL foods dangerous, and I have agreed with that point for some time. 

For example, the spinach/apple and other food crops scares against salmonella.. It turned out somebody dropped an apple into some animal poop, they made apple juice with it and it made some people sick. It's from cross contamination from animal products, yet they blame it on spinach and $#@!.

Soy is supposedly bad for you.. That is just utter bull$#@!, it is precisely what I talked about how the food industry is trying to make people afraid of everything to create mass confusion so they can get away with whatever they want. I have gone on and off soy for extended periods of time with absolutely zero impact on my sex drive and other health issues. When I was eating soy, I was eating a LOT.

Red meat is supposedly bad for you, in particular due to saturated fats (which I disagree with, it's not the fats that are bad it is all the muscle meat/proteins and the fact that they feed them grains when they're digestive system isn't built for that). If you're going to eat meat, hunt something, or eat a grass-fed animal that grazes. 

They want people to be afraid of everything so they don't know what to think anymore.. They just want to confuse people.

Yes, big-agra LOVES their highly processed grains, and they probably are helping to make people fat on top of HFCS and such.. but if they were selling them as whole grains then people would know that grains are healthy from personal experience, so they sell them in an unhealthy form for many reasons, I'm sure, including making people unsure about whether grains are healthy or not.

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## heavenlyboy34

> I was sticking to tubers for a while for that reason.. but oh man, you of all people should watch the vid.. He makes a really good point about how it seems like the big corporations are out to make ALL foods dangerous, and I have agreed with that point for some time. 
> 
> For example, the spinach/apple and other food crops scares against salmonella.. It turned out somebody dropped an apple into some animal poop, they made apple juice with it and it made some people sick. It's from cross contamination from animal products, yet they blame it on spinach and $#@!.
> 
> Soy is supposedly bad for you.. That is just utter bull$#@!, it is precisely what I talked about how the food industry is trying to make people afraid of everything to create mass confusion so they can get away with whatever they want. I have gone on and off soy for extended periods of time with absolutely zero impact on my sex drive and other health issues. When I was eating soy, I was eating a LOT.
> 
> Red meat is supposedly bad for you, in particular due to saturated fats (which I disagree with, it's not the fats that are bad it is all the muscle meat/proteins and the fact that they feed them grains when they're digestive system isn't built for that). If you're going to eat meat, hunt something, or eat a grass-fed animal that grazes. 
> 
> They want people to be afraid of everything so they don't know what to think anymore.. They just want to confuse people.
> ...


Yeah, the fear-mongers about soy forget to distinguish between fermented and unfermented soy.  The soy that vegans and Easterners traditionally eat is unprocessed and not a bad source of protein(though there are better non-meat sources).  Almost all soy in this country is processed though, and nasty for you.  Basically, ignore everything the FDA/corporate food complex says.  Dieticians produce a lot of good info, but it gets buried because it's not as profitable.

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## dannno

> Yeah, the fear-mongers about soy forget to distinguish between fermented and unfermented soy.  The soy that vegans and Easterners traditionally eat is unprocessed and not a bad source of protein(though there are better non-meat sources).  Almost all soy in this country is processed though, and nasty for you.  Basically, ignore everything the FDA/corporate food complex says.  Dieticians produce a lot of good info, but it gets buried because it's not as profitable.


Well I ate a lot of non-gmo organic tofu, which is not fermented.. although I'm a huge fan of miso and tempeh, I mostly ate tofu. 

I have a hard time believing that the soy bean is bad for people, though I do try and stick to tempeh as much as possible now just in case.. my personal experience says they are fine.

I am coming around on whole grains, though. I tried to steer away from all grains as much as possible for a long time and didn't see a huge benefit, and now I try and stick to whole grains and seeds like quinoa.

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## BuddyRey

If meat's bad for you, then why did nature make it taste so damn good?

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## Icymudpuppy

There is no "One Size Fits All Diet".

Learn to listen to your own body.  Learn to understand your natural cravings, and give your body the things it needs when it needs them.

Also consider your genetic heritage.  A middle eastern person has at least 10,000 years of agricultural grain based diet evolution on his side.  An Inuit has about the same period of years of a primarily meat and fish only diet.  A middle eastern person with a lot of meat will probably have heart and cholesterol problems.  An Inuit on a grain based diet will develop diabetes.

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## The One

> There is no "One Size Fits All Diet".
> 
> Learn to listen to your own body.  Learn to understand your natural cravings, and give your body the things it needs when it needs them.
> 
> Also consider your genetic heritage.  A middle eastern person has at least 10,000 years of agricultural grain based diet evolution on his side.  An Inuit has about the same period of years of a primarily meat and fish only diet.  A middle eastern person with a lot of meat will probably have heart and cholesterol problems.  An Inuit on a grain based diet will develop diabetes.



I listen to my body...and I think it's trying to kill me.

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## dannno

> If meat's bad for you, then why did nature make it taste so damn good?


Well the short answer is because it has a lot of nutrients that our body needs packed in very tightly. 

That doesn't mean it is the best for our digestive system.

However in the vid the guy discusses how there is an actual "taste bud" that detects meat which cats and other predators have and we don't. We have taste buds for sweet, sour, salty and bitter. Cats and other predators have taste buds specifically for meat. So apparently meat doesn't taste as good as it could if we had those taste buds.

I think meat tastes good, but I can think of plenty of veggie dishes that taste just as good as a properly pan seared steak.

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## dannno

> There is no "One Size Fits All Diet".
> 
> Learn to listen to your own body.  Learn to understand your natural cravings, and give your body the things it needs when it needs them.
> 
> Also consider your genetic heritage.  A middle eastern person has at least 10,000 years of agricultural grain based diet evolution on his side.  An Inuit has about the same period of years of a primarily meat and fish only diet.  A middle eastern person with a lot of meat will probably have heart and cholesterol problems.  An Inuit on a grain based diet will develop diabetes.


I'm not totally sold that every person on the planet should be eating grains, but the vid in the OP pushed be towards thinking that most who claim they need meat are probably doing the veggie diet wrong. Rev9 did a pretty good job convincing me that he ate a truly healthful veg diet with the right attitude and for long enough to tell that it wasn't good for him, but I'm still not completely sold on that one.

I never feel better than after I've eaten some good wholesome organic vegetarian food. 

Even in Africa most evolved to eat the grain millet, and all major healthy societies evolved to eat grains a long time ago. Chinese eat rice, etc..

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## Revolution9

> If meat's bad for you, then why did nature make it taste so damn good?


And what Danno said above about very little meat eaten here and there. BS. I take down a mammoth, or elk or deer or oxen/buffalo I am eating meat, lots of it, for a while. It seems little actually goes into these thought experiments but the spew coming out is exponentially larger. Listen to the video. No thanks. I know exactly what grains do to me. I know humans cannot digest starch. It has to be cooked and back in the day fire was not conveniently started. No bic lighters or pack matches. No metal pots so the boiling pot of potters clay has to be lugged. That tells me that nomadics were meat eaters and milk drinkers more than likely.

Rev9

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## heavenlyboy34

> There is no "One Size Fits All Diet".
> 
> Learn to listen to your own body.  Learn to understand your natural cravings, and give your body the things it needs when it needs them.
> 
> Also consider your genetic heritage.  A middle eastern person has at least 10,000 years of agricultural grain based diet evolution on his side.  An Inuit has about the same period of years of a primarily meat and fish only diet.  A middle eastern person with a lot of meat will probably have heart and cholesterol problems.  An Inuit on a grain based diet will develop diabetes.


Yep.  Although diet is critical, exercise is also very important.  Staying fit helps the body digest and generally work better.  (it's also a natural anti-depressant  )  I suspect that people of any background would get fat leading the typically sedentary lifestyle in this country.

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## kuckfeynes

That tube is quite the time investment... maybe you can just summarize how it contradicts the paleo diet?

I think paleo eaters would agree with most of what you've said thus far.

I see the graphic on the still frame that shows humans being evolved to crave carbohydrates. But that would make sense, because in the 1.7 million years between the dawn of **** sapiens and the domestication of grains 7k-10k years ago, carbs were indeed scarce, and so naturally the reward center of the brain was finely tuned to pursuit of veggies and especially fruits.

Maybe I'm wrong but I was under the impression that even whole grains can cause insulin spikes, albeit not as severe as refined grain.

From personal experience, I am not a strict paleo eater, but this past year I have greatly increased my protein and decreased my carbs, and I can honestly say I've never had so much energy in my life.

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## Revolution9

> I'm not totally sold that every person on the planet should be eating grains, but the vid in the OP pushed be towards thinking that those who claim they need meat are probably doing the veggie diet wrong.


Stop it with this crap. This is where you vegheads generate the wrath of those who do not take to your diet. I guarantee you you could hire me the best veggie cook, I would give her restrictions on what I can eat due to allergies and bad stomach reactions and she/he could not produce enough food to stop me from getting hungry or having cravings. 

My veghead encounter. I am going to the local coop. They were considering free range chicken to be sold. There was a group out front gathering sigs to stop it. They asked me and I told them I want them to have chicken so i don't have to travel miles to get it. I told them there was little in the store I could eat. It all had canola and soy oils in it or was made with grains or beans. The guy who was the most ideological made some smart assed remark about me, plundering the world as a killer and my health. Mind you this guy was 6'1" and about 135, had grey hair and thick glasses. I told him he didn't look that well and could use a burger to pick up a few pounds. He said he was healthier than I was for my age.. I asked him how old he was.. he was 47. I told him I was 53. I then started to cross the road.. He said "Make sure you don't get hit by a car and get killed." I stopped, looked at him and said with a hint of menace..did you just threaten me by proxy with death by car because I am not a veghead?.. The loudmouth stickman ran his ass off and ducked into the post office.

Vegheads are often pompous little snits and need upbraiding at points because a bunch of self righteous crap will get on anybodies last nerve.

Rev9

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## ctiger2

I didn't watch the vid yet. However, I did become aware of the primal diet via Tom Woods and the Mark Sisson interview. I have incorporated some changes to my diet with positive results so far. I've cut out grains and high carb/suger foods and started eating an apple a day. I'm not overweight by any means but I did want to get leaner and it seems to be working. I also bought one of those sit/stand desks and stand all day long for work now. Just remember moderation is the key.

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## heavenlyboy34

> That tube is quite the time investment... maybe you can just summarize how it contradicts the paleo diet?
> 
> I think paleo eaters would agree with most of what you've said thus far.
> 
> I see the graphic on the still frame that shows humans being evolved to crave carbohydrates. But that would make sense, because in the 1.7 million years between the dawn of **** sapiens and the domestication of grains 7k-10k years ago, carbs were indeed scarce, and so naturally the reward center of the brain was finely tuned to pursuit of veggies and especially fruits.
> *
> Maybe I'm wrong but I was under the impression that even whole grains can cause insulin spikes, albeit not as severe as refined grain.
> *
> From personal experience, I am not a strict paleo eater, but this past year I have greatly increased my protein and decreased my carbs, and I can honestly say I've never had so much energy in my life.


That is correct.

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## PaulStandsTall

> Thanks to global warming, we're finding all kinds of new things.


  @ 32:40

Veg + global warming = Liberal? 




> They are mummies. Who do you think got to be a mummy? Y'know, the pharaohs and the kings and the queens.


  @ 25:30

This doctor is wrong on his history. His mummy explanation suggests that only the rich and regal Egyptians were mummified. This is not the case. Once word of﻿ the process got out, the public demanded to be mummified and eventually almost everyone was mummified, including animals. Almost every western disease has been found in mummies, NOT limited to kings, but rather everyday folk who would have NOT eaten as many animal products as the regals did. In fact today Zippyjuan posted a story about cancer being found in a 40-something mummy.




> Jerry Brown, our new Governor.(Smiles)


  @ 53:45

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_B...ential_primary




> I don't know the Obamacare bill that well. I do know that it has put pressure on employers to take better care of their employees, so even though it's a start, I can see where there will be some very positive things coming out of it.


  @ 1:10:30

Doesn't know about the bill, but the part that he does know-the part that imposes regulation on job creators, he likes.

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## Eagles' Wings

Primal diet has so much sound evidence behind it.   Nourishing Traditions and Weston Price, bring more evidence to support sound methods of grain preparation if one chooses to eat them.   Bee Wilder has tons of info on her website to confirm that veggies must be cooked and eaten with a healthy fat to be assimilated.   Opinions are frivolous in the face of facts.   Simply "feeling good" or "losing weight" do not indicate health.  

Cheers,  
Louise

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## Tod

This may be of interest to you guys:

http://www.gutsense.org/index.html

The author is on facebook too:  https://www.facebook.com/monastyrsky?sk=info

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## Working Poor

Most all grains are GMOs now and potatoes too. The guy in the video seems like  a globalist to me.

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## Revolution9

> Primal diet has so much sound evidence behind it.   Nourishing Traditions and Weston Price, bring more evidence to support sound methods of grain preparation if one chooses to eat them.   Bee Wilder has tons of info on her website to confirm that veggies must be cooked and eaten with a healthy fat to be assimilated.   Opinions are frivolous in the face of facts.   Simply "feeling good" or "losing weight" do not indicate health.  
> 
> Cheers,  
> Louise


I believe they used to empty the ungulates stomach contents as well to get the plant nutrients in a pre broken down and denatured form. Nothing went to waste.

rev9

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## BamaAla

That video is a long commitment, but I think most of us Paleo/Primal folks have seen everything that was covered, and we could provide just as much empirical evidence to the contrary. At best, we have people interpreting information differently; at worst, we have dueling experts.  Either way, there is no need to open that up. I have no interest in trying to convert you, but I'll post for the benefit of those reading.

First I'd like to say, I'm glad to hear that you have had success going vegetarian Dannno; so long as you've reached your objective, mission accomplished. I too have struggled with my weight since the end of my primary schooling. At 25, I resolved to do something about it and began eating a calorie restricted diet and running. I continued this for about 9 months before my body started breaking down from the running. In any case, I dropped from 225 to 195 at 73 inches. Needless to say, once I quit running, the weight went back on.

After about 4 months, I was back at about 215. Again, I attempted to do something about it. This time I bought into the vegetarian craze that was going around with some of my friends. It was a colossal failure. I gained weight, my sleep patterns went to hell, I lost lean body mass, and I gained a disproportionate amount of body fat for the weight gain. I abandoned ship and went back to my usual diet.

Fast forward again and I'm back at 225 This time, I happened onto Mark Sisson and Primal. I did a baseline test with special attention paid to body fat and lean mass percentages via dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry. I jumped in head first to the diet and my exercise consisted of walking with my dogs about 35 minutes when the weather was good (usually 3 or 4 times a week.) After 10 weeks, I went back to my friends office and had the test done again; the results were amazing! I had dropped 6% body fat and maintained lean body mass without extensive cardio or resistance exercise. I continued on and the results kept coming. Granted, I've only been doing this diet for 5 months now, but I'm down to 180 pounds (last week - wouldn't be surprised to be in the 170s as of now) and have maintained nearly every ounce of lean body mass that I started with (though I did begin resistance training about 2 months back.) Oh yeah, my sleep patterns are better, I feel much better, my hair grows quicker, my nails are harder, my skin is better, and most of all I enjoy my meals like steak and bacon! I've done 3 body tests to date and will be doing another in a few weeks; I expect the same results if the mirror is any indication. 

I say all of that to say this: if you've had troubles in the past and are looking to get right, try it. There are differing opinions on everything and it isn't like this diet comes from some guy named Ray at the office; there are mountains of evidence to support this diet from doctors, biologists, and almost every other area of medical research. Plus, would you rather find raw veggies to sprout and walk around hungry or would you rather chow down on a nice fatty steak? The answer is clear!

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## Icymudpuppy

> I believe they used to empty the ungulates stomach contents as well to get the plant nutrients in a pre broken down and denatured form. Nothing went to waste.
> 
> rev9


Used to?  "They" still do in Scotland.  It's called haggis.

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## RickyJ

When I eat nothing but meat I lose weight. Different strokes for different folks dude, we are not all the same. Sure veggies are nice, but I will take meat over them any day because I like it better.

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## Revolution9

> Used to?  "They" still do in Scotland.  It's called haggis.


I am thinking it was the original idea that spawned chinese food style dishes..a mixture of chopped up local veggies with salty and sour juices with some fresh meat and fat.

Rev9

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## Cleaner44

I mainly eat a primal diet, not because some book or video told me too, but because I know that my body was designed for it.  I often think about things in a striped way, I will think "what would happen if I were on a island without any outside influence".  I know that if I were alive 5000 years ago, I could not have found mac & cheese on a tree so it probably is not what I should eat.  Even though I love donuts, it just is not natural. 

Natural
Nuts
Fruit
Veggies
Meat
Eggs

Works for me.  Keeps my weight steady.  The less ingrediants the better IMO.

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## StilesBC

I've figured out how to eat what my body tells me to eat, which vitamins and minerals I'm deficient in, etc.  I doubt there is any scientific explanation for this, but I've been healthy all my life and have absolutely no cravings for sugar or fatty foods.  In fact, while these things smell good and look good, I find their taste repulsive.  Corn syrup literally makes me want to vomit.  

I'm fairly certain most doctors would tell me I'm imagining things, or succumbing to placebo effect.  I wouldn't believe them.  If I'm not feeling 100%, I can usually pinpoint what it is and I'll take a Vitamin B, C or D, I'll eat some meat, drink more water, or decrease my carb intake and almost always feel better within mere hours.  

I don't think this is a genetic ability or anything.  My brother's diet is terrible.  My mother's isn't so good either.  I've taught myself this.  Yes, people look at me strange when I say no to cake after dinner.  It's just that once I finish a meal, I can't continue eating.  I would no sooner overeat than I would stab myself in the eye with a fork.  

I attribute some of it to my individualism.  I don't really care what other people are doing around me.  If my body says no, then so do I.  Not really sure if that is helpful advice for anyone else.  

I tend to lean toward there being no answer for everyone.  No two people are alike.  The best diet solution will be different for everyone.

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## dannno

> Primal diet has so much sound evidence behind it.


A lot of it is based on bunk archaeology, it's discussed in the video.





> Nourishing Traditions and Weston Price, bring more evidence to support sound methods of grain preparation if one chooses to eat them.


I actually have the first book you mentioned.

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## dannno

> Most all grains are GMOs now and potatoes too. The guy in the video seems like  a globalist to me.


The enemy isn't grains and potatoes, it is the GMO!!

The guy in the video actually rails against the food industry.. I didn't get hints that he is a globalist, he seems pretty genuine to me.

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## dannno

> @ 32:40
> 
> Veg + global warming = Liberal? 
> 
>   @ 25:30
> 
> This doctor is wrong on his history. His mummy explanation suggests that only the rich and regal Egyptians were mummified. This is not the case. Once word of﻿ the process got out, the public demanded to be mummified and eventually almost everyone was mummified, including animals. Almost every western disease has been found in mummies, NOT limited to kings, but rather everyday folk who would have NOT eaten as many animal products as the regals did. In fact today Zippyjuan posted a story about cancer being found in a 40-something mummy.
> 
>   @ 53:45
> ...


Thanks for pulling those quotes.. I was paying pretty close attention but somehow didn't catch any of those!!

Not sure about your mummy theory but I suppose it is plausible.

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## Sola_Fide

Low fat diets will work....if you eat only carbs and little fat.

Low carb diets will work...if you eat only fat and little carbs.

They will both work.  In the 80's, people were losing weight with low fat diets.  Today, the low carb craze is here.  If you restrict either macronutrient (carbs or fats), you will lose weight (if you keep protein high and calories restricted).

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## dannno

> This may be of interest to you guys:
> 
> http://www.gutsense.org/index.html
> 
> The author is on facebook too:  https://www.facebook.com/monastyrsky?sk=info





> Anal sex is like large hard stools, only in reverse.


Thanks for setting me straight

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## Echoes

Grains are of no nutrional value, unless ur starving in the 3rd world. It has it's place there.

  It's well documented that grains (especially gluten) are the most inflammatory food that humans ingest. Our bodies are not made to eat this crap, it wreaks havoc on the digestive system.

If you *must* eat it, your best bet is organic brown rice/wild rice, it's the least inflammatory. Oatmeal is the 2nd safest. Everything else is poison.

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## dannno

> Low fat diets will work....if you eat only carbs and little fat.
> 
> Low carb diets will work...if you eat only fat and little carbs.
> 
> They will both work.  In the 80's, people were losing weight with low fat diets.  Today, the low carb craze is here.  If you restrict either macronutrient (carbs or fats), you will lose weight (if you keep protein high and calories restricted).


Actually one of my friends lost a lot of weight when he was younger simply by eating either fats or carbs, but not both, during each meal.

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## dannno

> Grains are of no nutrional value, unless ur starving in the 3rd world. It has it's place there.
> 
>   It's well documented that grains (especially gluten) are the most inflammatory food that humans ingest. Our bodies are not made to eat this crap, it wreaks havoc on the digestive system.
> 
> If you *must* eat it, your best bet is organic brown rice/wild rice, it's the least inflammatory. Oatmeal is the 2nd safest. Everything else is poison.


I'd be interested if you had the same take after watching the video in the OP.

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## Echoes

> I'd be interested if you had the same take after watching the video in the OP.


I didnt and wont. been studying this for a looong time. I've been grain free for 10 yrs and it's absolutely one of the best moves of my life. Vegan propaganda is funny, tho.

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## dannno

> I didnt and wont. been studying this for a looong time. I've been grain free for 10 yrs and it's absolutely one of the best moves of my life. Vegan propaganda is funny, tho.


Well I just found that the video in the OP seemed to debunk a lot of the specific evidence that primals like to cite for the reasons they eat that way. Somebody came up with a theory for why his mummy explanation was wrong, though I don't know how much I'm buying that. Maybe the people who were being mummified were some middle class that was developing who were also eating meat. Besides, he presents far more evidence for a lot of other related subjects. It's a long video with a lot of info.

I have been nearly meat free for the last 10 years and it was absolutely THE best move of my life..or at least up there with deciding to try that first hit of cannabis which was part of the reason for the inspiration for the former.

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## Sola_Fide

> Actually one of my friends lost a lot of weight when he was younger simply by eating either fats or carbs, but not both, during each meal.


Exatly.  That is the key.  Never mix the macronutrients in the same meal.  Either go all carbs or all fats.  The best way to lose weight is called "carb cycling" where you do low carbs/high fats and proteins for a week and then high carbs/low fat on the weekend.  It was created by Mauro DiPasquali...its called the Metabolic diet.

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## NYgs23

I love to eat tasty food too much to deal with any diet that wants me to give up anything or follow some sort of persnickety regime. Or exercise. Guess I'll die young. Quality over quantity.

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## RonPaulGetsIt

Interesting presentation.

One point on the 3rd and 4th generation asians being overweight:  It could simply be from a much higher overall calorie count.  You also could compare scientifically the heights of those on starch based diets vs. those of their off spring on higher protein diets.

I have seen a lot of very tall asian kids (protein) with small parents (rice).

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## Acala

Summary please.  I don't have two hours to watch an infomercial.

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## BuddyRey

Just ate a greasy sausage biscuit, two fried hash browns, and started in on a super-sweet caramel mocha,

I'm so going to Hell for this...

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## Working Poor

> The enemy isn't grains and potatoes, it is the GMO!!
> 
> The guy in the video actually rails against the food industry.. I didn't get hints that he is a globalist, he seems pretty genuine to me.



Not enough railing against GMO in fact I did not hear him mention it once. It sounds to me like he wants everyone to go on a complete GMO diet.  He is a globalist...

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## KingNothing

Dieting is simple.

Eat a ton of vegetables.  Eat some fruit.  Eat some meat and eat a bit more fish.  Eat some eggs.  Drink a little bit of milk, and a ton of water.
Don't eat fried foods.  Don't eat simple carbs.  Don't eat highly processed garbage.  Pay attention to your calories-in and calories-out.

Following those common sense guidelines will make you pretty damn healthy.

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## heavenlyboy34

> Dieting is simple.
> 
> Eat a ton of vegetables.  Eat some fruit.  Eat some meat and eat a bit more fish.  Eat some eggs.  Drink a little bit of milk, and a ton of water.
> Don't eat fried foods.  Don't eat simple carbs.  Don't eat highly processed garbage.  Pay attention to your calories-in and calories-out.
> 
> Following those common sense guidelines will make you pretty damn healthy.


That's pretty good.  Basically, turn the FDA food pyramid upside down.

----------


## KevinR

Total globalist. Supports global warming, WHO, and didn't mention GMOs.. 

I eat Primal, and I LOVE sweet potatoes with cinnamon, but I wouldn't touch anything else on that list.

As I always say, a life without beef jerky is not worth living!

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> Also consider your genetic heritage.  A middle eastern person has at least 10,000 years of agricultural grain based diet evolution on his side.


 Evolution doesn't generally work that fast.  10,000 years doesn't seem long enough, to me, to change a nomadic omnivore species built for eating whatever you find wandering through the forest -- meat and mushrooms and roots and stuff -- into a species built to eat cooked wheat.  Maybe 100 million years could do that.  Humans before agriculture, which everyone agrees was very recent (10,000 years, like you say), were not eating any significant amounts of wheat I don't think.  I can't imagine that they were.  Wild wheat is this small little grain thing; wandering through the woods, who is going to bother with it?  Move on to those berries over there.




> veggies must be cooked and eaten with a healthy fat to be assimilated.


 Seriously?  So **** sapiens cannot digest vegetables without cooking them?  That seems like a very serious impediment and disadvantage to survival.  How would such a disadvantage come about?  It makes no sense, to me.  Why would my body be helplessly unable to process acorns or broccoli... unless I _cook_ them?  How am I going to survive wandering around in the woods with that kind of bizarre  handicap?

----------


## Echoes

> That's pretty good.  Basically, turn the FDA food pyramid upside down.


 the govt (FDA) promotes 10 servings of grain per day and subsidizes GMO. That's all you need to know to stay away, whatever govt recommends do the opposite. Why are they raiding organic shops nation-wide and not Monsanto ? They want you six feet under, thats why.

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> They want you six feet under, thats why.


 I don't know that the gov't actually wants you dead -- why would they?  Where's the incentive for that?  I think they're just incompetent.  Plus, as has always been obvious, the food pyramid is a product of lobbying by various agriculture interests, all of whom would benefit by adding one more recommended daily serving of their particular product.

----------


## Revolution9

> I don't know that the gov't actually wants you dead -- why would they?  Where's the incentive for that?


There is an 86K USD insurance policy on every registered death certificate.

Rev9

----------


## squarepusher

Why are refined grains bad?  You say insulin slows down metabolism, but total starch will determine insulin, not type of starch.

----------


## Working Poor

> the govt (FDA) promotes 10 servings of grain per day and subsidizes GMO. That's all you need to know to stay away, whatever govt recommends do the opposite. Why are they raiding organic shops nation-wide and not Monsanto ? They want you six feet under, thats why.



exactly

----------


## Acala

> Why are refined grains bad?  You say insulin slows down metabolism, but total starch will determine insulin, not type of starch.


Large doses of carbs cause your blood glucose to spike.  This causes your body to dump insulin.  This causes several problems: fat storage, insulin insensitivity, systemic inflammation, and a stress response including a cortisol release.  

Wheat adds the additional problem of gluten, which causes leaky gut syndrome in many people.  Leaky gut syndrome has numerous very serious effects including systemic inflammation.

edit: But maybe I misunderstood your question.  I don't think whole grain is any healthier than polished grain.  In fact, at least in the case of rice, white rice is probably healthier than brown rice since the toxins (lectins, phytic acid) are located mostly in the bran and germ.

----------


## donnay

> I don't know that the gov't actually wants you dead -- why would they?  Where's the incentive for that?  I think they're just incompetent.  Plus, as has always been obvious, the food pyramid is a product of lobbying by various agriculture interests, all of whom would benefit by adding one more recommended daily serving of their particular product.


Because the people running the show are psychopaths.  They want more for them and less for us, they think we are useless eaters who consume too much.  They definitely support eugenics.  The slow kills make them more money--poison in our foods and water.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Large doses of carbs cause your blood glucose to spike.  This causes your body to dump insulin.  This causes several problems: fat storage, insulin insensitivity, systemic inflammation, and a stress response including a cortisol release.  
> 
> Wheat adds the additional problem of gluten, which causes leaky gut syndrome in many people.  Leaky gut syndrome has numerous very serious effects including systemic inflammation.
> 
> edit: But maybe I misunderstood your question.  I don't think whole grain is any healthier than polished grain.  In fact, at least in the case of rice, white rice is probably healthier than brown rice since the toxins (lectins, phytic acid) are located mostly in the bran and germ.


Correct.  The only benefit of whole grain is that it has more fiber.

----------


## LibertyEagle

I don't know, Danno.  All I know is what Lew Rockwell looks like since he has been on the Primal Diet.  Have you seen him lately?  WOW!  He looks fabulous.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> the govt (FDA) promotes 10 servings of grain per day and subsidizes GMO. That's all you need to know to stay away, whatever govt recommends do the opposite. Why are they raiding organic shops nation-wide and not Monsanto ? They want you six feet under, thats why.


That^^  Plus, when people are sick and obese, they become dependent on drugs and treatments like insulin and kidney dialysis (FDA approved and "regulated", of course).

----------


## squarepusher

Also, they video claims humans don't have taste buds for meat, but clearly 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umami

actually, I watched the video, and I do like it, he brings up a lot of good points.

----------


## BamaAla

> I don't know, Danno.  All I know is what Lew Rockwell looks like since he has been on the Primal Diet.  Have you seen him lately?  WOW!  He looks fabulous.


It does work! The first picture below is me pre-primal at 225lbs and 73inches; the second is after the first test at around 200lbs. I don't have any more recent photos uploaded, but I'm at 180 now. The best part, the weight loss has been almost exclusively body fat as lean mass has been almost completely retained! We should get some more photos soon!

----------


## jmdrake

Here's the deal.  If you pay *any* attention to your diet your health will most likely improve.  If you decide to go vegan and cut out refined sugars and flours and greasy fast food your health will improve.  If you go primal and cut out refined sugars and flours and greasy fast food your health will improve.  Which one gets better results faster?  Hard to tell.  This is a conversation to have with yourself and your family and/or your doctor and not something to fight over at RPF.

----------


## Acala

> It does work! The first picture below is me pre-primal at 225lbs and 73inches; the second is after the first test at around 200lbs. I don't have any more recent photos uploaded, but I'm at 180 now. The best part, the weight loss has been almost exclusively body fat as lean mass has been almost completely retained! We should get some more photos soon!


You look great!  Good job.

----------


## donnay

> Here's the deal.  If you pay *any* attention to your diet your health will most likely improve.  If you decide to go vegan and cut out refined sugars and flours and greasy fast food your health will improve.  If you go primal and cut out refined sugars and flours and greasy fast food your health will improve.  Which one gets better results faster?  Hard to tell.  This is a conversation to have with yourself and your family and/or your doctor and not something to fight over at RPF.


The most important thing for all of us to remember is to learn to know our bodies.  What may work for you, does nothing for me, and vice versa.  The medical community, for the most part, try to _treat_ us all as one-size-fits-all treatments.  That is not how to try and cure people of ailments.  Ask a doctor how many years s/he studied nutrition?  They will look at you like you have lobsters crawling out of your ears.  Because the truth is, they have very little education in nutrition.

That is why it is incumbent upon us to know more about nutrition and minerals and know our bodies.  We need to know the symptoms that occur when we are deficient, then correct it by eating right or supplementing with the proper nutrients and minerals.  There is no perfect answers because each individual is different.  When it comes to this, it is up to us to learn!

----------


## low preference guy

> Summary please.  I don't have two hours to watch an infomercial.


dannno watched the whole two hours. lol. what a loser

----------


## low preference guy

> It does work! The first picture below...


Impressive. And you say your only exercise is walking with your dog half an hour daily? What distance?

----------


## Acala

> The most important thing for all of us to remember is to learn to know our bodies.  What may work for you, does nothing for me, and vice versa.  The medical community, for the most part, try to _treat_ us all as one-size-fits-all treatments.  That is not how to try and cure people of ailments.  Ask a doctor how many years s/he studied nutrition?  They will look at you like you have lobsters crawling out of your ears.  Because the truth is, they have very little education in nutrition.
> 
> That is why it is incumbent upon us to know more about nutrition and minerals and know our bodies.  We need to know the symptoms that occur when we are deficient, then correct it by eating right or supplementing with the proper nutrients and minerals.  There is no perfect answers because each individual is different.  When it comes to this, it is up to us to learn!


Yup. Educate yourself.  Do the research.  Experiment.  Be aware of what is going on in your own body.  The last place I would go for advice on diet is an MD.

----------


## Omnica

mmm maple smoked peppercorn bacon

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Yup. Educate yourself.  Do the research.  Experiment.  Be aware of what is going on in your own body.*  The last place I would go for advice on diet is an MD*.


Can't tell if that's sarcasm...but yeah, not all MD's know about diet and nutrition-which is unfortunate because diet and exercise are preventative measure that eliminates the need for many "cures".  An hour of exercise is as effective against depression as paxil or zoloft, for example.

----------


## low preference guy

> Can't tell if that's sarcasm...


pretty sure it's not. i agree largely with the statement, because one needs to try whatever the M.D. tells you anyway to see if it works, so you just look online at the main diets and see which works for you. but there might be some extreme cases where seeing a good nutritionist is a good idea.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> I don't know that the gov't actually wants you dead -- why would they?  Where's the incentive for that?  I think they're just incompetent.  Plus, as has always been obvious, the food pyramid is a product of lobbying by various agriculture interests, all of whom would benefit by adding one more recommended daily serving of their particular product.


This^^  The pharma complex benefits as well-as the drugs that they produce are geared toward victims of the lifestyle the FDA promotes.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> pretty sure it's not. i agree largely with the statement, because one needs to try whatever the M.D. tells you anyway to see if it works, so you just look online at the main diets and see which works for you. but there might be some extreme cases where seeing a good nutritionist is a good idea.


Yep.  Plus, many doctors get kickbacks from drug salesmen to advertise and push drugs onto patients.

----------


## Acala

> Can't tell if that's sarcasm...but yeah, not all MD's know about diet and nutrition-which is unfortunate because diet and exercise are preventative measure that eliminates the need for many "cures".  An hour of exercise is as effective against depression as paxil or zoloft, for example.


Not sarcasm.  The vast majority of MDs simply follow the standard government/drug company line: reduce your fat intake and do aerobic exercise to lose weight (fails for the majority of people), take statins if you have high cholesterol, take blood pressure meds if you have high blood pressure, and if you have insulin insensitivity . . . well . . . get ready to have diabetes, then take insulin.  

This is the standard treatment.  I don't blame the MDs.  They have to follow the standard practice or risk being sued.  But YOU don't have to follow their advice.  At least not yet.

----------


## Echoes

> It does work! The first picture below is me pre-primal at 225lbs and 73inches; the second is after the first test at around 200lbs. I don't have any more recent photos uploaded, but I'm at 180 now. The best part, the weight loss has been almost exclusively body fat as lean mass has been almost completely retained! We should get some more photos soon!


Bravo, you look great.

But just to add, a grain-free paleo is not just for weight reduction. Millions of ppl have been healed from arthritis, celiac, acne and other skin conditions, IBS, Chron's and other auto-immune diseases. Mini-miracles happen when you eliminate those nasty grains.

When's the last time you heard of anyone being allergic to meat ? lol

----------


## Sullivan*

> Bravo, you look great.
> 
> But just to add, a grain-free paleo is not just for weight reduction. Millions of ppl have been healed from arthritis, celiac, acne and other skin conditions, IBS, Chron's and other auto-immune diseases. Mini-miracles happen when you eliminate those nasty grains.
> 
> *When's the last time you heard of anyone being allergic to meat* ? lol


Certain vegetarians?

----------


## dannno

> Not enough railing against GMO in fact I did not hear him mention it once. It sounds to me like he wants everyone to go on a complete GMO diet.  He is a globalist...


lol... 

It sounds like he is promoting veggies, grains and legumes to me..

----------


## dannno

> Also, they video claims humans don't have taste buds for meat, but clearly 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umami





> Naturally occurring glutamate can be found in meats and vegetables, whereas inosinate comes primarily from meats and guanylate from vegetables. Thus, Umami taste is common to foods that contain high levels of L-glutamate, IMP and GMP, most notably in fish, shellfish, cured meats, vegetables (e.g., mushrooms, ripe tomatoes, Chinese cabbage, spinach, celery, etc.) or green tea, and fermented and aged products (e.g., cheeses, shrimp pastes, soy sauce, etc.).[25]







> actually, I watched the video, and I do like it, he brings up a lot of good points.


Agreed. 

I was of the impression that there was a lot of people who really needed a more paleo type of diet, but the numbers just don't add up when you look at past civilizations. I would think it would be really rare to find somebody who requires a paleo diet to be healthy. Maybe Rev9 is one of those unique individuals, but I think when you really look at the numbers and look at why the majority of people these days are having serious health problems and issues with their weight is due to a combination of domesticated animal meats combined with HFCS and highly refined grains.

Of course everybody should listen to their own body and maybe the paleo diet works really well (although I'd still be concerned about colon cancer). But a lot of people are having serious health problems or are overweight and are big meat eaters. Reducing the three things I said above (domesticated animal meats, HFCS, refined grains) and replacing the domesticated meats with occasional fish, game meats and maybe on occasion some grass fed meat, and adding more whole grains, fruits and veggies would have the largest effect on the most amount of people.

----------


## dannno

> When's the last time you heard of anyone being allergic to meat ? lol


Meat contains a lot of deadly bacteria and parasites.

----------


## Revolution9

> Meat contains a lot of deadly bacteria and parasites.


BS.. That is what the vegheads conned me with. Lectins and gluten are poison. Excuse me but if this diet is so great for you why the thick glasses in the pic. My eyes have gotten 200% better since adding back grassfed beef. I may be able to toss the glasses for reading in few more months. Properly grown and butchered meat has none of what you state. Jeesh..You never give up trying to justify this and bash other about the ears with it.

Rerv9

----------


## Revolution9

> Agreed. 
> 
> I was of the impression that there was a lot of people who really needed a more paleo type of diet, but the numbers just don't add up when you look at past civilizations. I would think it would be really rare to find somebody who requires a paleo diet to be healthy. Maybe Rev9 is one of those unique individuals, but I think when you really look at the numbers and look at why the majority of people these days are having serious health problems and issues with their weight is due to a combination of domesticated animal meats combined with HFCS and highly refined grains.
> 
> Of course everybody should listen to their own body and maybe the paleo diet works really well (although I'd still be concerned about colon cancer). But a lot of people are having serious health problems or are overweight and are big meat eaters. Reducing the three things I said above (domesticated animal meats, HFCS, refined grains) and replacing the domesticated meats with occasional fish, game meats and maybe on occasion some grass fed meat, and adding more whole grains, fruits and veggies would have the largest effect on the most amount of people.


I am hardly unique. Others have chimed in on the thread with the same info worded differently than me. Looks like they are northern european blood as well.

Rev9

----------


## low preference guy

> Meat contains a lot of deadly bacteria and parasites.


I wonder why I'm still alive.

----------


## low preference guy

> Maybe Rev9 is one of those unique individuals...


you might need bigger glasses to see BamaAla's before and after pictures. or maybe laying off the pot would work.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Meat contains a lot of deadly bacteria and parasites.


lolz

----------


## low preference guy

Question for the paleo people: You guys say that man didn't cook for most of history. Did they eat raw meat?

----------


## Working Poor

> When's the last time you heard of anyone being allergic to meat ? lol



Every time I eat it my gut hurts and I feel terrible the next day I would not call that an allergy but still...

I don't eat it because of not feeling good afterwards.

----------


## Tod

> Thanks for setting me straight


LOL!!!!  I never even saw that until you pointed it out.  Thanks, buddy!

----------


## donnay

> Meat contains a lot of deadly bacteria and parasites.


I will not argue that pork has deadly bacteria and parasites, one of the very reasons I do not touch the stuff.  Pork, no matter how long you cook it you cannot kill all the parasites.  If you are susceptible to getting colds and flu's, or have arthritis, high cholesterol, heart problems and a myriad of health ailments you might want to lay off the eating pork.  Also pig fat is highly toxic as well.   But good grass-fed beef with no hormones, steroids and antibiotics butchered in a sanitary slaughterhouse is great for you.  The same goes for fowl.

Sources:
http://knol.google.com/k/human-patho...fects-of-pork#
http://www.onlinetruth.org/Articles%...zardous_to.htm
https://images.vortala.com/chiroprac...LTH%20RISK.pdf

----------


## dannno

> you might need bigger glasses to see BamaAla's before and after pictures. or maybe laying off the pot would work.


I didn't cite him because he hasn't actually tried a good wholesome vegetarian diet. Maybe he would be better off with that diet? Or maybe not?

Rev9 has laid out his wholesome vegetarian diet in great enough detail and seems to know a lot about nutrition and did it for long enough that if he is being truthful, he sounds like someone who might be a good candidate for a paleo diet over a primarily veggie diet.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Agreed. 
> 
> I was of the impression that there was a lot of people who really needed a more paleo type of diet, but the numbers just don't add up when you look at past civilizations. I would think it would be really rare to find somebody who requires a paleo diet to be healthy. Maybe Rev9 is one of those unique individuals, but I think when you really look at the numbers and look at why the majority of people these days are having serious health problems and issues with their weight is due to a combination of domesticated animal meats combined with HFCS and highly refined grains.
> 
> Of course everybody should listen to their own body and maybe the paleo diet works really well *(although I'd still be concerned about colon cancer). But a lot of people are having serious health problems or are overweight and are big meat eaters.* Reducing the three things I said above (domesticated animal meats, HFCS, refined grains) and replacing the domesticated meats with occasional fish, game meats and maybe on occasion some grass fed meat, and adding more whole grains, fruits and veggies would have the largest effect on the most amount of people.


The Paleo diet is high in vegetables as well.  No need to worry about colon cancer.  The sentence highlighted is absurd.  The causal element of "health problems" in those sort of people come from a combination of sedentary lifestyle and poor diet.  There are big meat eaters all over the world, but the vast majority of the obese ones are in societies like the US-low exercise/high carb and sugar diet.  Hunter-gatherers are some of the healthiest people in the world.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Question for the paleo people: *You guys say that man didn't cook for most of history.* Did they eat raw meat?


I must have been absent for that part of the thread.  I thought that meat was cooked throughout human history.

----------


## dannno

> Excuse me but if this diet is so great for you why the thick glasses in the pic. My eyes have gotten 200% better since adding back grassfed beef.


My avatar is Mike Smith (aka "Bubbles") from Trailer Park Boys. Very funny Canadian mocumentary, you should check it out.

My vision is better than 20/20 and has not degraded in the 10 years I've been mostly veg (will be 30 soon).

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Every time I eat it my gut hurts and I feel terrible the next day I would not call that an allergy but still...
> 
> I don't eat it because of not feeling good afterwards.


Hmm.  Have you tried digestive enzymes?

----------


## dannno

> I must have been absent for that part of the thread.  I thought that meat was cooked throughout human history.


The argument is that grains need to be cooked so early humans wouldn't have been able to eat grains.

----------


## donnay

> Every time I eat it my gut hurts and I feel terrible the next day I would not call that an allergy but still...
> 
> I don't eat it because of not feeling good afterwards.


Do you eat grass-fed (no antibiotics, steroids or hormones) beef?

----------


## Gary4Liberty

> ...I do eat meat on very rare occasions, just as most of our ancestors likely ate meat much more rarely than those who promote the primal diet will try and tell us.


What were all those stone arrowheads and spear heads for then?  They made so many of them they are virtually everywhere. In the midwest we used to find them in fields everywhere. Indian arrowheads. They ate meat heavily.

----------


## trey4sports

> My avatar is Mike Smith (aka "Bubbles") from Trailer Park Boys. Very funny Canadian mocumentary, you should check it out.
> 
> My vision is better than 20/20 and has not degraded in the 10 years I've been mostly veg (will be 30 soon).



lmao, he thought you were bubbles!

----------


## freeforall

I haven't watched the video yet.  I had the same experience several years ago as I transitioned to a mostly vegetarian diet.  I generally include meat in my diet when I crave it.  Pregnancy and breastfeeding seems to increase my cravings quite a bit.  I do feel healthier including some meat in my diet versus the days when I was vegan.  I tend to focus on making sure I eat a variety of vegetables and grains, some fruit, protein, fats, and water every day.  As long as I do that, I don't worry about indulging.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

World's oldest living human eats a primal diet.

----------


## Echoes

> Do you eat grass-fed (no antibiotics, steroids or hormones) beef?


 I'd ask the same. Night and day difference between them.

I, too, get aches when i eat pus-filled, *grain*-fed meat.

----------


## PaulStandsTall

Oldest person to ever live (122 years old), Jeanne Calment, ate a primal diet.

She ascribed her longevity (and youthful appearance considering her age) to olive oil and her liberal use of it, both on all her foods and rubbed into her skin. Everyday she took wine, chocolate, and olive oil.
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=401

----------


## Revolution9

> Do you eat grass-fed (no antibiotics, steroids or hormones) beef?


Antibiotics of all kinds give me a gut ache and kidney pain and hormones in meat gives me a sore throat two days after. Grass fed beef and free range poultry, salmon and trout I thrive when eating. Lately the craving has been for grass fed ribeye steaks and I am putting muscle mass on without much exercise except isometrics and chi gung type stuff. . I prefer steaks as they are not exposed like ground burger meat. Salt it good and it kills any stray bugs on the outside. Most meat contamination in this country comes from mass ground beef distribution. You rarely hear that for meat ground on premises. Thing that does suck is I can't drink beer now that I have stayed away from grains for so long. It gives me bad hiccups and heartburn, then swollen hands and eyes the next day.. I used to be able to drink a case of Sam Adams over a long Friday night.

Rev9

----------


## Revolution9

> Oldest person to ever live (122 years old), Jeanne Calment, ate a primal diet.
> 
> She ascribed her longevity (and youthful appearance considering her age) to olive oil and her liberal use of it, both on all her foods and rubbed into her skin. Everyday she took wine, chocolate, and olive oil.
> http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=401


One of the oldest ever Japanese men had a diet of meat and milk and was over 115 IIRC. Another interesting note is how many of these oldest of timers say they smoked a cigarette or two daily and had a shot or two of a brandy or wine.

Rev9

----------


## youngbuck

I'll watch the video when I get a chance, but I doubt it will sway me.  I've read so many nutrition/diet/health books and spent so much time piecing together the health puzzle (which is still not complete), I'm sure I won't encounter anything new here.

Here's a book I'll suggest:  Primal Body - Primal Mind by Nora Gedgaudas.  This will open your eyes to the fallacies of grain/starch/carb proponents.  I

Again, I'll watch the vid when I have the time.

----------


## Echoes

> Antibiotics of all kinds give me a gut ache and kidney pain and hormones in meat gives me a sore throat two days after. Grass fed beef and free range poultry, salmon and trout I thrive when eating. Lately the craving has been for grass fed ribeye steaks and I am putting muscle mass on without much exercise except isometrics and chi gung type stuff. . I prefer steaks as they are not exposed like ground burger meat. Salt it good and it kills any stray bugs on the outside. Most meat contamination in this country comes from mass ground beef distribution. You rarely hear that for meat ground on premises. Thing that does suck is I can't drink beer now that I have stayed away from grains for so long. It gives me bad hiccups and heartburn, then swollen hands and eyes the next day.. I used to be able to drink a case of Sam Adams over a long Friday night.
> 
> Rev9


Right on, let's not forget about FISH !! Extremely healthy and dellicious. Wild salmon, mackerel and herring are a few of my favorites.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Right on, let's not forget about FISH !! Extremely healthy and dellicious. Wild salmon, mackerel and herring are a few of my favorites.


I'm not a fan of salmon or "fishy" fish, but I do like fish.  Tuna is fantabulous! (the chicken of the sea)

----------


## Echoes

> I'm not a fan of salmon or "fishy" fish, but I do like fish.  Tuna is fantabulous! (the chicken of the sea)


 Tuna tastes real good, i just dont overdo it cuz the mercury is somewhat higher. Fish at the bottom of the food chain have the lowest levels.

----------


## donnay

> Antibiotics of all kinds give me a gut ache and kidney pain and hormones in meat gives me a sore throat two days after. Grass fed beef and free range poultry, salmon and trout I thrive when eating. Lately the craving has been for grass fed ribeye steaks and I am putting muscle mass on without much exercise except isometrics and chi gung type stuff. . I prefer steaks as they are not exposed like ground burger meat. Salt it good and it kills any stray bugs on the outside. Most meat contamination in this country comes from mass ground beef distribution. You rarely hear that for meat ground on premises. Thing that does suck is I can't drink beer now that I have stayed away from grains for so long. It gives me bad hiccups and heartburn, then swollen hands and eyes the next day.. I used to be able to drink a case of Sam Adams over a long Friday night.
> 
> Rev9


How about gluten-free beer?  http://www.mrgoodbeer.com/gf/

I finally found organic wine with no added sulfites!  http://www.theorganicwinecompany.com/wine_facts.php  Sulfites were doing the same thing to me that the beer was doing to you.  So I figured out it was sulfites that was causing that.  Once I drank wine with no added sulfites I had no problems--not even the usual headache I would normally get from drinking too much wine, at times I can over indulge. 

Nitrates do the same thing.  Since I do not eat pork, I love uncured grass-fed beef bacon with no nitrites or nitrites added.

Going back to the ground beef, I read somewhere that in the average package of ground beef, there can be as much of 100 different cows meat in there. YUK.  If one of those cows are sick, good luck trying to find the source. One of the other reasons why they USDA is pushing to irradiate meat.  However, we buy our grass-fed beef from a local rancher who butchers right on sight.  His place is so clean you can eat off the floor and we know our ground beef comes from the one cow we purchased to be slaughtered.  It really makes a huge difference!

----------


## donnay

> I'm not a fan of salmon or "fishy" fish, but I do like fish.  Tuna is fantabulous! (the chicken of the sea)


Be careful of canned tuna not only for the mercury but because some companies put MSG in it.

I find good wild caught Salmon to not be so fishy when I broil it with garlic, lemon and pepper.  It's great smoked!  I also love naturally smoked whiting!

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> Because the truth is, they have very little education in nutrition.


 _None of us_ have very much education in nutrition.  The human race doesn't have very much education in nutrition.  Nutrition is very much an unsettled, immature science, much like medicine in the 1800s in my opinion.  There's advice all over the map.

Unfortunately, as long as the gov't controls and funds science, prospects for advancing the science of nutrition are bad.  No one's going to give you a grant to do a ten-year double-blind study examining the nutritional effects of XYZ.  Not sexy.  Not helping anyone's Congressional district.  Not going to happen.

Thus we see yet another reason why we need a separation of science and state.

----------


## onlyrp

> I was sticking to tubers for a while for that reason.. but oh man, you of all people should watch the vid.. He makes a really good point about how it seems like the big corporations are out to make ALL foods dangerous, and I have agreed with that point for some time. 
> 
> For example, the spinach/apple and other food crops scares against salmonella.. It turned out somebody dropped an apple into some animal poop, they made apple juice with it and it made some people sick. It's from cross contamination from animal products, yet they blame it on spinach and $#@!.
> 
> Soy is supposedly bad for you.. That is just utter bull$#@!, it is precisely what I talked about how the food industry is trying to make people afraid of everything to create mass confusion so they can get away with whatever they want. I have gone on and off soy for extended periods of time with absolutely zero impact on my sex drive and other health issues. When I was eating soy, I was eating a LOT.
> 
> Red meat is supposedly bad for you, in particular due to saturated fats (which I disagree with, it's not the fats that are bad it is all the muscle meat/proteins and the fact that they feed them grains when they're digestive system isn't built for that). If you're going to eat meat, hunt something, or eat a grass-fed animal that grazes. 
> 
> They want people to be afraid of everything so they don't know what to think anymore.. They just want to confuse people.
> ...


so you're not against red meat?

----------


## donnay

> _None of us_ have very much education in nutrition.  The human race doesn't have very much education in nutrition.  Nutrition is very much an unsettled, immature science, much like medicine in the 1800s in my opinion.  There's advice all over the map.
> 
> Unfortunately, as long as the gov't controls and funds science, prospects for advancing the science of nutrition are bad.  No one's going to give you a grant to do a ten-year double-blind study examining the nutritional effects of XYZ.  Not sexy.  Not helping anyone's Congressional district.  Not going to happen.
> 
> Thus we see yet another reason why we need a separation of science and state.


Well I have a Naturopathic physician that knows great deal about nutrition, minerals, herbs and wellness.  I also have many friends that have studied nutrition as well.  I, myself, have researched/studied nutrition and minerals for years.  I can say with assertiveness that I have asked a few MD's about certain foods and supplements, and I get that glazed-over look then an answer like, "I am not qualified in that area, maybe you should go to this dietician (that he recommends) to answer your questions."  I have come right out and asked them, how many hours did you study nutrition while you were in med school, and I get answers like, none, to maybe 8 to 10 hours they studied nutrition.  To me that is appalling.

There are plenty of Nutritionists out there, that have conducted independent studies.  There are lots of independent scientific studies that are conducted outside the U.S..  

What we have is Big Pharma and their lobbyist running the show.  That is why the FDA is in their pockets and there is absolutely no transparency.

However, I agree, the government should be out of heathcare, medicine and science.  It should in the private sector and totally regulated by the people.

----------


## Revolution9

> lmao, he thought you were bubbles!


I am culturally bereft. I pay no mind to Hollywood or TV, especially a character sporting the moniker 'bubbles'.. The trick was he has had this same guy in multiple pics as an avatar. and lulz..he was always complaining about not getting 'chicks'. What's a culturally bereft guy to assume??

Rev9

----------


## Revolution9

> _None of us_ have very much education in nutrition.  The human race doesn't have very much education in nutrition.  Nutrition is very much an unsettled, immature science, much like medicine in the 1800s in my opinion.  There's advice all over the map.
> 
> Unfortunately, as long as the gov't controls and funds science, prospects for advancing the science of nutrition are bad.  No one's going to give you a grant to do a ten-year double-blind study examining the nutritional effects of XYZ.  Not sexy.  Not helping anyone's Congressional district.  Not going to happen.
> 
> Thus we see yet another reason why we need a separation of science and state.


There is too much focus on vitamins and not near enough on precursors in the chemical reactions chains. An example would be sulfurous compounds to provide precursors for the making of glutathione in the liver. You can load down with vitamins but if you don't have glutathione you will not be able to remove volatile organic aromatic hydrocarbons from your blood as well as the many metals it will bind to making them inert and handily disposable by the intestinal and nephritic systems. Eggs and coffee are two foods that can provide the sulfur precursors.

Rev9

----------


## onlyrp

> Large doses of carbs cause your blood glucose to spike.  This causes your body to dump insulin.  This causes several problems: fat storage, insulin insensitivity, systemic inflammation, and a stress response including a cortisol release.  
> 
> Wheat adds the additional problem of gluten, which causes leaky gut syndrome in many people.  Leaky gut syndrome has numerous very serious effects including systemic inflammation.
> 
> edit: But maybe I misunderstood your question.  I don't think whole grain is any healthier than polished grain.  In fact, at least in the case of rice, white rice is probably healthier than brown rice since the toxins (lectins, phytic acid) are located mostly in the bran and germ.


Not all carbs are equal though, that's why there's a difference between eating sugar and eating complex sugar (starch)

----------


## onlyrp

> Yep.  Plus, many doctors get kickbacks from drug salesmen to advertise and push drugs onto patients.


and supplement salesman get no monetary compensation, nor do alternative remedy pushers, right? Only the mainstream gets money, the rest of are just good people volunteering for good, right?

----------


## onlyrp

> Stick to veggies and fruits, danno.  Your body is not made/evolved for high-grain diets.  Ignore the big-agra/FDA complex propaganda that tells you otherwise.  Save the grains for fattening livestock.  ETA: watched some of the vid, and the logic is terrible.  Thoroughly unscientific.
> 
> ETA 2: This claim: "However whole grains such as whole wheat, rice, corn and others do not act in this way and have been staples of every healthy civilization." is false.  If you want insulin-resistance and eventually diabetes, feel free to load up on these foods.


vegetarianism and evolution are both liberal scams designed to weaken your health via selective dieting, and at the same time destroying the economy which once depended on meat production.

----------


## donnay

> vegetarianism and evolution are both liberal scams designed to weaken your health via selective dieting, and at the same time destroying the economy which once depended on meat production.


That sounds like a tinfoil hat conspiracy theory.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> and supplement salesman get no monetary compensation, nor do alternative remedy pushers, right? Only the mainstream gets money, the rest of are just good people volunteering for good, right?


There are some scammers everywhere, but consider the money involved in pharma-drugs.  They stand to benefit most from sickness, as nobody can get significant kickbacks on natural supplements.  Consider also how the FDA corrupts the business of health.  Example-As I mentioned earlier, exposure to sunlight is as effective in treating depression as pharma drugs.  But you won't find many docs or pharma corps telling you that because sunlight is free.  Same with vitamins and other supplements.  

Also, much of the time natural remedies are preventative, which isn't that profitable-especially compared to fixing sick people with expensive drugs whose sicknesses could have been prevented to begin with.  You'll never make as much selling an ounce of prevention as you will selling a pound of "cure".

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> vegetarianism and evolution are both liberal scams designed to weaken your health via selective dieting, and at the same time destroying the economy which once depended on meat production.


I didn't suggest vegetarianism.  I suggested replacing most or all grains with fruits and veggies.

----------


## Working Poor

> Hmm.  Have you tried digestive enzymes?



For what so I have to spend more money to eat? Eating meat is not that important to me to have to eat something so I can digest it.

----------


## donnay

> For what so I have to spend more money to eat? Eating meat is not that important to me to have to eat something so I can digest it.


If you do not have enough digestive enzymes you will not absorb the proper nutrients from the food you consume.  Good yogurt, kefir and cheese can definitely help.

Another thing is, you might not have enough acid in your stomach to digest the meat right, if you take a tablespoon of Organic apple cider vinegar with MOTHER in a glass of water before you eat meat it will help immensely.

----------


## Working Poor

> If you do not have enough digestive enzymes you will not absorb the proper nutrients from the food you consume.  Good yogurt, kefir and cheese can definitely help.
> 
> Another thing is, you might not have enough acid in your stomach to digest the meat right, if you take a tablespoon of Organic apple cider vinegar with MOTHER in a glass of water before you eat meat it will help immensely.


I feel fine when I do not eat meat why should I have to change something I have been doing for over 40 years? If I do eat meat I always add organic apple cider vinegar with mother. But I still don't feel well after eating it IMO I do not need meat. I need non GMO vegetables.

----------


## donnay

> I feel fine when I do not eat meat why should I have to change something I have been doing for over 40 years? If I do eat meat I always add organic apple cider vinegar with mother. But I still don't feel well after eating it IMO I do not need meat. I need non GMO vegetables.


Very true, you know your body better.  I applaud you!  +rep

----------


## squarepusher

I am on the starch diet!  will let you all know how it goes!

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> you might need bigger glasses to see BamaAla's before and after pictures. or maybe laying off the pot would work.


Don't go badmouthing pot...

----------


## John F Kennedy III

What is a primal diet? Why is it better than vegetarian or vegan?

----------


## onlyrp

> What is a primal diet? Why is it better than vegetarian or vegan?


primal diet is also called the caveman diet, no grains.

----------


## Acala

> What is a primal diet? Why is it better than vegetarian or vegan?


No grain.  No legumes.  No industrial vegetable oils.  No trans fats.  Fruit, nuts, and starchy vegetables in moderation.  Lots of organic vegetables.  Plenty of grass-fed beef, wild-caught fish, free-range eggs.  Some say no dairy, others say grass-fed dairy in moderation.

There are also non-diet componenets to the primal lifestyle.

----------


## Acala

> The argument is that grains need to be cooked so early humans wouldn't have been able to eat grains.


No, the argument is that before the advent of agriculture about 10,000 years ago, grain could only be gathered from the wild in very small quantitites and so could not possibly have been a major contributor to the human diet.  

The best evidence indicates that humans always had fire because their likely immediate ancestor, **** erectus, seems to have had fire.

----------


## dannno

> I am on the starch diet!  will let you all know how it goes!


Are you still alive?   j/k

----------


## Hospitaller

So i watched it Danno.

I like where both the Paleolithic and starch diets are trying to get us to go, it seems the paleo diet takes eating meat too far but the starch diet takes meat out all together. Essentially stay as far away from processed sugars, attain low amounts of natural sugars and avoid anything that stimulated insulin. 

I do have a question, what are your thoughts on dairy because i live on that $#@!, also pasta.

----------


## dannno

> I do have a question, what are your thoughts on dairy because i live on that $#@!, also pasta.


I eat a ton of dairy also, but I eat a lot of raw cheese, yogurt, regular cheese and will get some raw milk on occasion. If I don't get raw dairy then at least no rbst, organic if possible..

But I think that a lot of people have problems digesting lactose, and I think there is something in raw milk that helps our bodies digest lactose. Also, during the yogurt and cheese making process, lactose is consumed by the good bacteria in the cheese/yogurt. This is why I will make exceptions for cheese or yogurt made from pasteurized milk. Our bodies seem to be able to handle it ok.

As far as pasta, I have heard it is simlar to eating whole grains even though it is made from processed grains because it is binded to itself really well and is then digested more like a whole grain.

----------


## squarepusher

Bump this thread, me and my family have really be getting into China Study and McDougall recently.  Seems to have a lot of points, which seem counter intuitive to me.  My main background is kind of primal/meat so this is a big leap for me.  I have been giving it a go for a while now off and on, but it is growing on me, going for several days without meat and feeling OK, as before I thought I used to have and need meat all the time.

----------


## Acala

> Bump this thread, me and my family have really be getting into China Study and McDougall recently.  Seems to have a lot of points, which seem counter intuitive to me.  My main background is kind of primal/meat so this is a big leap for me.  I have been giving it a go for a while now off and on, but it is growing on me, going for several days without meat and feeling OK, as before I thought I used to have and need meat all the time.


Before you buy into all the conclusions being drawn from the China study, take a look at the other side.  Here is a good place to start:
http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the...act-or-fallac/

----------


## dannno

> Bump this thread, me and my family have really be getting into China Study and McDougall recently.  Seems to have a lot of points, which seem counter intuitive to me.  My main background is kind of primal/meat so this is a big leap for me.  I have been giving it a go for a while now off and on, but it is growing on me, going for several days without meat and feeling OK, as before I thought I used to have and need meat all the time.


Ya I had been veggie for over 10 years and, to update this thread, I have been more primal for the last 4 or 5 months. 

I am able to keep my weight in check with both diets - where I'm not able to keep my weight in check is high fat/high carb diets. It's easy to eat as much meat and fats as you want and stay skinny if you don't eat too many carbs. You can also be overweight on a vegetarian diet by eating too many carbs. I think carbs can be an ok source of energy for some people if you eat the right type and in reasonable quantities.

I've always said that the standard american diet is the real enemy to healthy eating. It's a little frustrating when I see people who act like the vegetarian/vegan diet is the enemy of primal/paleo and when vegetarians/vegans see primal/paleo as the enemy to the vegetarian diet when the standard american diet is really the enemy to both.

----------


## specsaregood

> I've always said that the standard american diet is the real enemy to healthy eating. It's a little frustrating when I see people who act like the vegetarian/vegan diet is the enemy of primal/paleo and when vegetarians/vegans see primal/paleo as the enemy to the vegetarian diet when the standard american diet is really the enemy to both.


Technically speaking, one could be vegetarian and primal at the same time.  It would limit a choices but you could do it.   I've had a fair number of vegetarian days that all fit in the primal blueprint.

----------


## Acala

> Technically speaking, one could be vegetarian and primal at the same time.  It would limit a choices but you could do it.   I've had a fair number of vegetarian days that all fit in the primal blueprint.


Yes, if you ate eggs.  They would need to be GOOD eggs.

----------


## jj-

Polyunsaturated fats and grains are the real enemy, especially polyunsaturated fats.

----------


## squarepusher

> Ya I had been veggie for over 10 years and, to update this thread, I have been more primal for the last 4 or 5 months. 
> 
> I am able to keep my weight in check with both diets - where I'm not able to keep my weight in check is high fat/high carb diets. It's easy to eat as much meat and fats as you want and stay skinny if you don't eat too many carbs. You can also be overweight on a vegetarian diet by eating too many carbs. I think carbs can be an ok source of energy for some people if you eat the right type and in reasonable quantities.
> 
> I've always said that the standard american diet is the real enemy to healthy eating. It's a little frustrating when I see people who act like the vegetarian/vegan diet is the enemy of primal/paleo and when vegetarians/vegans see primal/paleo as the enemy to the vegetarian diet when the standard american diet is really the enemy to both.


When you speak of carbs, do you mean fructose or starch?

I also just purchased this book last week.  It is a preorder, as it isn't already out yet, but I just received an email that it did finally ship yesterday.

Its called The Perfect Health Diet
http://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Health...ct+health+diet

It is basically a twist on primal, that calls for addition of safe starched like rice and potatoes, as well as lots more (I haven't read it yet, just caught a quick preivew).  It seems like you have adapted a type of hybrid meat eating diet (as well as Kotin), so maybe you might find this book interesting?!




> *Editorial Reviews* *Review*              “This is more than a diet. It's a program for perfect health. The  result of 5 years of research, the Perfect Health Diet enabled  scientists Paul and Shou-Ching Jaminet to cure their own chronic  diseases. With more than 600 citations to the scientific literature, _Perfect Health Diet_ explains  simply and clearly how to optimize your diet for a lifetime of great  health. I've read hundreds of books on nutrition and health in my life,  and Perfect Health Diet is at the top of the list."—Chris Kresser, M.S.,  Lac; integrative medicine practitioner and blogger at ChrisKresser.com
> 
> “The _Perfect Health Diet_  is the missing link.  It bridges the gap between the philosophical,  broad-based, almost intuitive ancestral approach to health and the  hard-core data hounds who need to see proof at every step. The authors  are scientists through and through, an astrophysicist and a molecular  biologist, who deftly wield the scepter of cold, hard science while  paying homage to the inescapable wisdom of traditional, ancestral,  evolutionary health.”—Mark Sisson, author of _The Primal Blueprint_ and founder of marksdailyapple.com
> 
> “From  the best of what we know about ancestral science and the natural world  comes a modern-day formula proven to return us to optimal health. The_ Perfect Health Diet_ delivers exactly what it promises.”—Dallas & Melissa Hartwig, authors of _It Starts With Food_
> 
> “The  sanest overview of what to eat I have ever seen. If you are going to  read only one thing on the subject, read this.”—Seth Roberts, Ph.D.,  professor emeritus of psychology at UC Berkeley and author of _The Shangri-La Diet_
> 
> "Whenever any of my clients ask me a health/performance diet question, I just tell them to go to _Perfect Health Diet_;  I trust that anything that appears in the book has been thoroughly  researched and examined.  One of my best friends was on the diet while  undergoing chemo and his bloodwork numbers were so good that they would  have been considered average...for a person without cancer.  This book  is my number one nutritional resource for my family, friends, and  clients.” (Court Wing, Co-founder and Head of Training, CrossFit NYC )
> ...

----------


## brandon

The human body is resilient. You can eat a lot of a lot of different things and be just fine. As long as your caloric intake and macro nutrient levels are at reasonable amounts your body will go towards a healthy weight.

----------


## farreri

I've lost 30 pounds so far on McDougall's starch solution diet.  Eating as much potatoes, rice, and fruit that I want.  My blood sugar is testing always in the normal range.  Never once spiked.  Not having any cravings for meat or fats.  Have a lot more and sustained energy then when on the paleo diet.  And my old sugar cravings are well taken care of by consuming all this lucious fruit!

----------


## KerriAnn

My two cents:

I've been looking for a solution for my husband's problems. He was overweight and had abdominal pain, lack of energy, and other related problems for a few years now, and the doctors have done every possible test to figure out what's wrong. they're final solution was to prescribe him an antacid, which did nothing.

I started doing extensive research about how to help him through his diet, which formerly consisted almost entirely of processed food. 

He lost 40 pounds on the atkins diet, which I also tried. I noticed my face was clearer on that diet too. Probably just because I eliminated processed foods. The Atkins diet was hard to maintain at the time, so we eventually quit.

He's gained some of the weight back, I think he's at 220 now. 

So I'm back at it. I've discovered the "Raw food" theory. It makes sense. At least 51% of your diet should consist of uncooked food. vegetables, fruits, even raw milk and raw fruit juices. After I started learning what's raw and what's not raw, it's kind of weird. It's like our culture is obsessed with cooking food. Why? Why kill it? Eating it while it's "alive" is the best way to get the nutrients from the food. If you heat it up, you're killing a lot of those nutrients.

So, in the last month, I've started making sure that at least half of the food I eat is raw. Raw chia, raw nuts, raw flax, hemp seeds and other superfoods are now a big part of my diet. I try to make sure the remaining part consists of grass fed meats, whole grains and raw dairy. I'm not trying to lose weight, I don't really need to, but I have noticed my belly fat has been going down, and I don't crave bad food like I used to. My skin is clear and my energy level is much higher. 

The jury is still out on how my husband's body will react to this new diet. I know it will take more than a month to see results, but I can tell he feels better already.

----------


## Yieu

> Yes, if you ate eggs.  They would need to be GOOD eggs.


Eggs are not vegetarian, so that could not be included (and I don't see why they would need to be "good eggs").  But if you had milk -- then yes, that works, of course.  Milk, beans, fruits, vegetables, nuts, and non-gluten grains could fit into that lifestyle.  I understand some in the paleo/primal camp do not like beans, but I believe they are healthy so I see no reason to exclude them.  If you were to exclude them though, you could still get what you need primarily from milk.




> I've always said that the standard american diet is the real enemy to healthy eating. It's a little frustrating when I see people who act like the vegetarian/vegan diet is the enemy of primal/paleo and when vegetarians/vegans see primal/paleo as the enemy to the vegetarian diet when the standard american diet is really the enemy to both.


I think this divide occurs because paleo/primal people tend to act like meat is most of what they need, and put so much focus on it, and sometimes end up making up false claims about vegetarians not being healthy, so then vegetarians respond to that sort of argument in defense.

I'm trying out reducing my gluten intake to see how I fare (though I do not believe it to be unhealthy for those that are not gluten sensitive, and since I am not gluten sensitive there is no need for me to do so), based on my communication with the paleo/primal advocates here, to see if there's anything to it.  I haven't eliminated it completely, but I have much less than before.  I can't say I've noticed a difference at this point, but I can say that gluten free flours (such as Red Mill's) are very delicious!  This flour makes the best waffles/pancakes compared to those made with wheat, in my experience.  The waffles didn't even need syrup or butter, and I normally use plenty of those.  It makes good pizza dough, too.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

btw...I am not strictly primal.  I enjoy small deserts, sweet salad dressings (poppyseed), and occasional sandwiches and whatnot, and I believe more fruit than the primal diet calls for.  However, I am extremely active, so I can get away with it.  I also use yams as my primary carb source.

----------


## Yieu

> Bump this thread, me and my family have really be getting into China Study and McDougall recently.  Seems to have a lot of points, which seem counter intuitive to me.  My main background is kind of primal/meat so this is a big leap for me.  I have been giving it a go for a while now off and on, but it is growing on me, going for several days without meat and feeling OK, as before I thought I used to have and need meat all the time.


The China Study advocates a diet that is good, but I disagree with its criticism of milk.

----------


## Acala

> Eggs are not vegetarian, so that could not be included (and I don't see why they would need to be "good eggs").


Pasture-raised chickens lay eggs with more omega-3 than feed-raised chickens.

----------


## Yieu

> Pasture-raised chickens lay eggs with more omega-3 than feed-raised chickens.


Okay.  They're still not vegetarian, so would not be able to be included in a vegetarian version of your diet.  If you want omega 3 as a vegetarian, there is flax seed oil, and there is also the following: http://www.udoerasmus.com/products/oil_blend_DHA_en.htm

----------


## specsaregood

> Okay.  They're still not vegetarian,


That is up for debate.  Many people consider them vegetarian.  I don't see much of a difference between consuming unfertilized eggs and milk.

----------


## Acala

> Okay.  They're still not vegetarian, so would not be able to be included in a vegetarian version of your diet.  If you want omega 3 as a vegetarian, there is flax seed oil, and there is also the following: http://www.udoerasmus.com/products/oil_blend_DHA_en.htm


I suppose it would be technically an ovo vegetarian.  But honestly, I don't care.  I'm not a vegetarian, lacto, ovo, or otherwise.  

If a vegan wants to get the kind of Omega-3 the brain needs, they need to eat algae.  Flax seed will not get you there.

----------


## Yieu

> That is up for debate.  Many people consider them vegetarian.  I don't see much of a difference between consuming unfertilized eggs and milk.


Oddly enough, there are some who consider them vegetarian.  I do not.  I think adding eggs to the diet means no longer vegetarian.  I see a difference between milk, which is produced for the purpose of consumption, and even unfertilized eggs, which are a menses and the seed of life (I also do not consume human unfertilized eggs) -- both of which milk is not.  But then I also see milk as a sacred gift from mother cow, which she produces in excess so that we have no need of taking her flesh -- so milk consumption is partially a religious thing for me.




> If a vegan wants to get the kind of Omega-3 the brain needs, they need to eat algae.  Flax seed will not get you there.


Yes, algae is healthy, and it is contained in the oil I linked above.

----------


## jj-

The brain needs omega-3 only if you want to damage it.

----------


## Acala

> The brain needs omega-3 only if you want to damage it.


Hahahaha.  Here, I found you a simple explanation, since you have probably already damaged your brain:
http://www.fi.edu/learn/brain/fats.html#fatsbuild

----------


## jj-

Would've rebutted point by point, but the unnecessary aggression made me lose the desire to disabuse a seed-oil industry willing or unwilling troll. Make sure to strengthen your brain with that fish oil!

----------


## Toureg89

> There is no "One Size Fits All Diet".
> 
> Learn to listen to your own body.  Learn to understand your natural cravings, and give your body the things it needs when it needs them.
> 
> Also consider your genetic heritage.  A middle eastern person has at least 10,000 years of agricultural grain based diet evolution on his side.  An Inuit has about the same period of years of a primarily meat and fish only diet.  A middle eastern person with a lot of meat will probably have heart and cholesterol problems.  An Inuit on a grain based diet will develop diabetes.


and what about a person who is equal parts Middle Eastern and Scotts Irish? lol....

----------


## Acala

> Would've rebutted point by point, but the unnecessary aggression made me lose the desire to disabuse a seed-oil industry willing or unwilling troll. Make sure to strengthen your brain with that fish oil!


You are right.  I was rude.  I apologize.  And I would be interested to hear what you have to say.

If I recall other comments you have made, you understand that PUFAs can be dangerous because of the potential for rancidity and that saturated fats are good stuff.

Also, I avoid all vegetable oils other than coconut, palm, and olive.  And I don't heat olive.  So we may see eye to eye on a few things.  

But somewhere along the line we are parting ways on the dietary necessity of the omega-3 and 6 fatty acids.

----------


## cubical

Honestly, every diet I see people swearing only have 1 thing in common. They remove all the artificial junk from their diet. It doesn't matter if its white bread, processed pasta, chips, hormone laced beef and milk, people who plan on avoiding these things do well on their diets.

----------


## cubical

> Would've rebutted point by point, but the unnecessary aggression made me lose the desire to disabuse a seed-oil industry willing or unwilling troll. Make sure to strengthen your brain with that fish oil!


Why so many positive studies on fish oil, if it is so bad for you?

You really think eating PUFAs in fish is unhealthy?

----------


## squarepusher

> Why so many positive studies on fish oil, if it is so bad for you?
> 
> You really think eating PUFAs in fish is unhealthy?


http://www.naturalnews.com/035015_PUFAs_health_fatty_acids.html

----------


## Acala

> Why so many positive studies on fish oil, if it is so bad for you?
> 
> You really think eating PUFAs in fish is unhealthy?


One possible reason for apparent benefits of eating more fish oil is that the average American eats a TON of omega-6.  Omega-3 is healthier than omega-6 and they compete for metabolic pathways.  If you are eating a diet heavy in omega-6, increasing your omega-3 will counter some of the omega-6.  I'm not so sure fresh fish oil is not good for you.  But what we can probably agree on is that the BEST approach is to try and eliminate omega-6 (oils extracted from grains and legumes and also animal products from animals fed those things) and then it would not be necessary to go out of your way to increase intake of omega-3 because you would get plenty in grass-fed meat and pasture-raised eggs.

----------


## jj-

> Why so many positive studies on fish oil, if it is so bad for you?
> 
> You really think eating PUFAs in fish is unhealthy?


Because the seed oil industry has a better lobby than the coconut oil industry. Most of those studied are flawed. If you reach undesirable conclusions, you just lose funding.

Read these two articles to know what's wrong with PUFAs. The claim about PUFAs being essential to form cell membranes is also debunked there, in the second article.

Unsaturated fatty acids: Nutritionally essential, or toxic?
Suitable Fats, Unsuitable Fats: Issues in Nutrition

----------


## cubical

> Because the seed oil industry has a better lobby than the coconut oil industry. Most of those studied are flawed. If you reach undesirable conclusions, you just lose funding.
> 
> Read these two articles to know what's wrong with PUFAs. The claim about PUFAs being essential to form cell membranes is also debunked there, in the second article.
> 
> Unsaturated fatty acids: Nutritionally essential, or toxic?
> Suitable Fats, Unsuitable Fats: Issues in Nutrition


It over my head as it is for everyone else who does not research this stuff. But you are telling me all the studies done on fish oil, which probably reaches the 1000s, are corrupted? It's not like you are interrupting some complex data. Did test subjects from the A group show less signs of prostate cancer vs the B group? It's either yes or no. The wikipedia page alone cites dozens studies examining the benefits of fish oil. I am a young guy, so I fortunately have not had any medical issues(maybe its because I take my cod liver oil), but I have one personal example. Several years ago my father had high blood pressure and he was turned on to fish oil and after just a few weeks his blood pressure had dropped dramatically. This was the only change he made to his lifestyle.

I know we have a lot of "conspiracy theory" guys on this site, but just because something goes against the mainstream, doesn't mean it is truth.

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## cubical

> http://www.naturalnews.com/035015_PUFAs_health_fatty_acids.html


Also from Natural News

http://www.naturalnews.com/028083_fi...l_illness.html

"We already know that omega-3 fatty acids / polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) help protect people against cardiovascular disease. We also know they can play a role in preventing diabetes and cancer. "

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## jj-

> It over my head as it is for everyone else who does not research this stuff. But you are telling me all the studies done on fish oil, which probably reaches the 1000s, are corrupted? It's not like you are interrupting some complex data. Did test subjects from the A group show less signs of prostate cancer vs the B group?


The problem with those studies is that the "control group" should have been given a diet without PUFAs, i.e., a diet with saturated fats, without any significant source of PUFA, to do a proper comparison.

Fish oil might give what feels like benefits in the short run because it suppresses the immune system, and therefore inflammation, but suppressing the immune system is bad in the long run.

That stuff seem over our heads, but I'm not sure it is. The reason I was open to the idea of PUFAs being bad is that my health was $#@!, tried everything, and only improved after I read this PhD in Biology who said PUFAs cause some symptoms, which I was having, and they went away a few months after eliminating PUFAs. But I really don't think it's over our heads. In the articles I linked to, the guy explains why PUFAs are believed to be beneficial, and why those studies are misinterpreted or wrong. Just read some an article I posted. You might not understand all but you would understand a lot. The guy is 76 and still with a very sharp mind, if you listen to his interviews, and he still publishes articles. He has 40 years researching PUFAs and giving nutritional advice. It seems to me he is doing something right.

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## squarepusher

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/06...-oil-capsules/

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## cubical

> The problem with those studies is that the "control group" should have been given a diet without PUFAs, i.e., a diet with saturated fats, without any significant source of PUFA, to do a proper comparison.
> 
> Fish oil might give what feels like benefits in the short run because it suppresses the immune system, and therefore inflammation, but suppressing the immune system is bad in the long run.
> 
> That stuff seem over our heads, but I'm not sure it is. The reason I was open to the idea of PUFAs being bad is that my health was $#@!, tried everything, and only improved after I read this PhD in Biology who said PUFAs cause some symptoms, which I was having, and they went away a few months after eliminating PUFAs. But I really don't think it's over our heads. In the articles I linked to, the guy explains why PUFAs are believed to be beneficial, and why those studies are misinterpreted or wrong. Just read some an article I posted. You might not understand all but you would understand a lot. The guy is 76 and still with a very sharp mind, if you listen to his interviews, and he still publishes articles. He has 40 years researching PUFAs and giving nutritional advice. It seems to me he is doing something right.


If one group takes fish oil and one doesn't, all else will be equal. Some people in both groups will eat high saturated fats and some won't. 

Things like chronic disease and cancer would not be affected by short term immune suppression.

I am not against sat fats at all. I love them and think they are great for you. I just believe fats from fish(not all PUFAs) are very beneficial and I believe the majority of nutritional science is with me.

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## squarepusher

Krill oil recommended, not fish oil

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...-fish-oil.aspx

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## jj-

> Things like chronic disease and cancer would not be affected by short term immune suppression.


To clarify the minority view, they claim that the fish oil produces long term immune suppression which feels good only at the beginning. Later on, the damage is greater.




> I just believe fats from fish(not all PUFAs) are very beneficial and I believe the majority of nutritional science is with me.


The majority view doesn't necessarily agree with what's true, not in the time of Galileo, and I believe not today either. That should be especially easy for us to realize as libertarians. When the funding of research is determined by the market, the outcome will be better. In the presence of the FDA, medical fascism and government funding of science, the research will be extremely distorted. It's easy to show they're wrong all the time. Eggs were bad due to cholesterol, now we know they barely raise cholesterol. Sunshine is bad due to skin cancer, but now we know that the reduction of vitamin d due to sun avoidance increased other types of cancers, and resulted in greater damage. In 10 years, at most, I believe everyone will know that beef fat is much healthier than fish fat, but I'm happy to know that now (or at least believe based on the evidence I can gather in my context and with my limited knowledge).

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## Kotin

Starch is a plant's mechanism for storing energy.. Glycogen is the human/animal equivalent.. Very different structures with respect to glycosidic linkages and the enzymes required to break down .. Stay away from starch for the most part is my advice..

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## pochy1776

> Stick to veggies and fruits, danno.  Your body is not made/evolved for high-grain diets.  Ignore the big-agra/FDA complex propaganda that tells you otherwise.  Save the grains for fattening livestock.  ETA: watched some of the vid, and the logic is terrible.  Thoroughly unscientific.
> 
> ETA 2: This claim: "However whole grains such as whole wheat, rice, corn and others do not act in this way and have been staples of every healthy civilization." is false.  If you want insulin-resistance and eventually diabetes, feel free to load up on these foods.


Are you a scientist?

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## heavenlyboy34

> Are you a scientist?


No, an athlete interested in nutrition to maximize performance.  Are you suggesting one needs to be a scientist to identify obviously unscientific methods?

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## cubical

> Krill oil recommended, not fish oil
> 
> http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...-fish-oil.aspx


I actually do take Krill in pill form. I take Cod Liver Oil in liquid form. I give some to my dog as well.

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## Acala

Chronic inflammation is far more prevalent a problem in the USA than insufficient inflammation.  And while weak immune function IS a problem, it is largely due to the chronic cortisol drip associated with chronic stress.  And those are my two touchstones for improving the health of the modern American - eliminate chronic stress and eliminate chronic inflammation.

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## specsaregood

> http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/06...-oil-capsules/


And tonight is the night for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feast_of_the_Seven_Fishes

Dig in everybody.

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## farreri

This diet has been working very well for me.  Becoming lean and mean with more energy.

Anyone down to try it for a couple of months for their New Year's Resolution?!

I'd like to see if it works well for others as it has worked for me.

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