# Lifestyles & Discussion > Bitcoin / Cryptocurrencies >  "I was wrong about Bitcoin"

## muh_roads

Somebody who woke up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G-K7-QOaA4

I used to be the same way.  In the beginning I thought it was the NWO currency before I looked more into it.  derp...

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## Petar



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## Indy Vidual

> ...In the beginning I thought it was the NWO currency...


It is the New*er* World Order, do you have a problem with that?

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## thoughtomator

Bitcoins will end in tears.

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## psi2941

u really think just because bitcoins are worth a barrel of oil, you think ill change my views?

people in the housing market was bragging about their homes in 2005. it didnt turn out so nice for them.

like someone said its just a fad.

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## Petar

> Bitcoins will end in tears.



1) Bitcoin is not a "ponzi scheme" if it was a ponzi scheme then it would actually be structured like a ponzi scheme. Is every product that is ever invented a ponzi scheme just because the people who created the product and invested in it early are the ones who profit most? Sheer idiocy. 

2) So what if it crashed once before? This idiot pretends that just because there was some initial instability then that proves that bitcoin can never sustain any value in the market. How is that a logical observation in any way shape or form?

3) He criticizes it for "not being backed by anything" but ignores all the other built in benefits like it being portable and anonymous and limited. This fool ignores them all, and then he has the audacity to add that it's "not worth FRN's" because it's "not backed by silver or gold". And FRN's are? Hypocritical fool.

4) Then he says that "you can't buy anything with it", but he ignores Silk Road, and he also pretends that it can never be adopted more widely in the future. Again, idiot!

5) Then he points out that BTC costs more in electricity to mine than the current market value, ignoring the potential for future market appreciation, and comes to the false conclusion that this makes them a scam.

6) He complains about people mining them early making money as they appreciate in market value, which is again like complaining about every invention ever created and invested in.

8) Correctly labels "global warming" as propaganda, and then just arbitrarily decides that bitcoin is therefor necessarily based on lies as well.

9) Notes that Bernie Maddof was hiding - assumes that Bitcoin creator must also be a criminal because he is anonymous 

This guy is an idiot and an $#@! and a creator of sheer propaganda.

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## anaconda

> Bitcoins will end in tears.



I am also concerned (like the video narrator) about 6 million of the eventual 21 million bitcoins in the hands of a few early adopters. These people aren't selling a product. And they will only make a killing if many people eventually participate. Does the group of later adopters have theoretical leverage over bargaining, with their participation, for a portion of the early adopters yet to be realized wealth?

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## Petar

> I am also concerned (like the video narrator) about 6 million of the eventual 21 million bitcoins in the hands of a few early adopters. Won't it make an instant ruling class out of these people?


At least they would only be in control of their large piece of the inventor/early investor pie, and not pulling leavers on the entire market like Bernanke and friends.

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## thoughtomator

> At least they would only be in control of their large piece of the inventor/early investor pie, and not pulling leavers on the entire market like Bernanke and friends.


Doesn't mean it doesn't end up the same way, with everyone holding it looking at a big fat zero. Given how aware everyone here should be that the dollar is basically supported by nothing but confidence (and hence is a con game), the last place people should be looking for refuge is yet another currency supported by nothing but confidence.

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## Petar

> Doesn't mean it doesn't end up the same way, with everyone holding it looking at a big fat zero. Given how aware everyone here should be that the dollar is basically supported by nothing but confidence (and hence is a con game), the last place people should be looking for refuge is yet another currency supported by nothing but confidence.


You still have not described the mechanism by which bitcoin might fail in the marketplace and lose all its value.

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## IDefendThePlatform

> Doesn't mean it doesn't end up the same way, with everyone holding it looking at a big fat zero. Given how aware everyone here should be that the dollar is basically supported by nothing but confidence (and hence is a con game), the last place people should be looking for refuge is yet another currency supported by nothing but confidence.


My understanding is that the "first use value" of bitcoin is its electronic p2p transferability without fees or a central authority, and also its anonymity. Confidence is undeniably a large portion of it, but there are people who will always value that p2p transferability (keeping money away from government thieves) and electronic anonymity (silk road, etc.). (also its scarcity)

Confidence is also a large part of precious metals value IMO. Their useful properties (divisibility, scarcity, tangibility, etc) are probably a roughly similar % of their market value as bitcoins. 


With that said, I don't deny the possiblity of some sort of technological malfunction/attack (lhard fork in the blockchain?) that could wreak havoc or even wipe out bitcoin entirely. But nothing is 100% secure and we could get hit by a gold-bearing meteor, too. Or some chemist could invent a way to make silver very cheaply or something. Or precious metals could steadily lose market share to electronic cryptocurrencies (which have some definite advantages over PMs), decreasing their value over time instead of increasing it. (More likely govt paper fiat currencies will continue to lose market share to PMs and cryptocurrencies, with both increasing in value over time)

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## The Northbreather

> But nothing is 100% secure and we could get hit by a gold-bearing meteor, too.  (More likely govt paper fiat currencies will continue to lose market share to PMs and cryptocurrencies, with both increasing in value over time)


That would be awesome. then we could all afford grillz

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## cubical

> You still have not described the mechanism by which bitcoin might fail in the marketplace and lose all its value.


Price will fall when the speculation phase is over and there are not enough new buyers for the old buyers to sell for a profit. Then people will be concerned with preserving capital and there will be a rush for the exits. No one is buying bitcoin to store their wealth over longer periods of time. It is full of people who want to make a profit by buying now and selling soon later. If bitcoin hit a long period where the price stabilized, it would gain legitimacy, but that point isn't for years down the road and between now and then, since nothing has proven itself a good medium of exchange except PMs or government accepted/established fiat, I expect it to fail miserably.

As for it being a trade, good luck.

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## muh_roads

> Bitcoins will end in tears.


I've posted on his videos before and he deletes anything I say.  He doesn't permit any intelligent conversation that doesn't fit into his personal uninformed bias.

He's a little bitch who knows nothing and shouldn't be paid attention to.

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## newbitech

> You still have not described the mechanism by which bitcoin might fail in the marketplace and lose all its value.


Define "it's value", cause before it can lose it, it has to gain it, agree?  As long as people have to convert out of bitcoins into fiat in order to assess value,  then I believe the majority of that value has been stripped.  Sure there is value in being able to transact anonymously without a centralized clearing house, but converting to fiat takes a pretty big bite out of that as well.  

Sure people are willing to give you $90 bucks for a bitcoin right now.  That's great and all, IF you already have these bitcoins.  But if you don't, that offer is meaningless.  So we need to see these bitcoins being distributed.  I don't see that happening right now.  It's the exact opposite.  Bitcoins are being accumulated.  When people start actually buying things with bitcoins, we can begin to assess it's value.  Until then, I am not exactly impressed by people willing to convert their failed currency into bitcoins at a questionable rate. 

Speaking of the value of a bit coin.  In terms of actual work it takes to get one of these coins let's call it "naturally" through mining, we know a few things about that process that can help us find it's "intrinsic" value.  

We know that at this time 25 bitcoins are "discovered" every 10 minutes on average.  This was not and will not always be the case since the discovery process has a finite half life.  

However we can compare those blocks of time to other blocks of time.  So looking at an hourly scale, from here on out the maximum amount of bitcoins that can be discovered per hour on average is 150. 

150 bit coins per hour.  

Well, if anyone wants to get a better idea of the intrinsic value of a bit coin, I would suggest the best place to start would be to consider your own personal hourly wage.  

Let's say I make $15 an hour.   If a bit coin is valued at say $100, then it should take me approximately 1000 hours to discover 150 bit coins.   Well, is that possible?

What type of expertise, equipment, and production cost goes in to discovering 150 bit coins in 1000 hours?  Well that is about 6.7 bitcoins per hour. 

At the current difficulty, you would need to generate about 89GHash/s.  

Right now, to get that setup, you'd need to spend about 75 bit coins and wait a couple months for delivery. 

It's not difficult at all to get these coins IF, IF you take the risk to get setup.  Meaning, you risk that you will spend that time and get nothing in return.  But we want to know what the maximum return is right?

We don't know yet, since the more people who take that risk to get setup to mine, the harder it is to discover the coins.  This is part of where I see the bitcoin failing.

This is artificial scarcity.  This creates a dead-weight loss in the value of the currency that I think may become insurmountable very quickly once its obvious that the ability to discover coins is out of reach for all but the most sophisticated hardware.  

Why is this a problem?  Because the transactions still need to hashed, and the incentive for hashing will no longer be the discovery of new coins.  That is when the monopoly will kick in and the focus will be on WHO actually does the teraHashing per second it will take in difficulty to win the block.  There is the dead weight.  

There is the Achilles heel in this system.  The fact that there is a limit to how many coins can be discovered and a fixed time frame for discovery creates the artificial scarcity that creates the dead weight burden.  That burden is then amplified by the attempt to provide incentive to continue processing even when the rewards are not economical.  

Who ever wants to control the transaction fees will decide how much processing power and thus difficulty of solving the hash is leveraged against the system.  This only gets worse as the scale of system increases (the more it is adopted and the more successful it becomes, the bigger the dead weight).  More transactions mean more potential for fees.  More potential for fees means more processing power, more processing power means more centralization, more centralization means the ability to accumulate more and more of a finite product.  

Basically, what is going to happen with bitcoin, there is going to be a big whale in the "market" that is going but such a heavy burden on a system that is trying to scale up to a true level of competition that it will eventually swallow all the other creatures in the market.  

What I think would be an improvement would another layer of proof of work.  The other twist is, there really is no limit to how many times a bitcoin can be subdivided and still be useful.

What is the difference between say 21 million bit coins (the theoretical maximum), and say .000000000021 bit coins?  It's really infinite.  BUT if there was a worker process to split a bit coin in to 10th's and validate with the reward of a  few 10ths, or split the 10's into 100's with the reward of a few 100's, then you really grease the wheels of this system and allow that process to scale smoothly.

But, that didn't happen, and its too late for that.  Instead, I can subdivide my bitcoin all the way out to 8 decimals.  So it's just a simple matter of me shifting the decimal to create more coin.  In fact, if you look a the mining process or creation process or validation process, (however you want to look at it), that's the crux of what gives bitcoins their artificial scarcity.

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## muh_roads

> Define "it's value", cause before it can lose it, it has to gain it, agree?  As long as people have to convert out of bitcoins into fiat in order to assess value,  then I believe the majority of that value has been stripped.  Sure there is value in being able to transact anonymously without a centralized clearing house, but converting to fiat takes a pretty big bite out of that as well.  
> 
> Sure people are willing to give you $90 bucks for a bitcoin right now.  That's great and all, IF you already have these bitcoins.  But if you don't, that offer is meaningless.  So we need to see these bitcoins being distributed.  I don't see that happening right now.  It's the exact opposite.  Bitcoins are being accumulated.  When people start actually buying things with bitcoins, we can begin to assess it's value.  Until then, I am not exactly impressed by people willing to convert their failed currency into bitcoins at a questionable rate. 
> 
> Speaking of the value of a bit coin.  In terms of actual work it takes to get one of these coins let's call it "naturally" through mining, we know a few things about that process that can help us find it's "intrinsic" value.  
> 
> We know that at this time 25 bitcoins are "discovered" every 10 minutes on average.  This was not and will not always be the case since the discovery process has a finite half life.  
> 
> However we can compare those blocks of time to other blocks of time.  So looking at an hourly scale, from here on out the maximum amount of bitcoins that can be discovered per hour on average is 150. 
> ...


There will always be people who mine "for the good of the network" rather than for person profit.  If the majority finally figure out that mining is worthless, the network I am sure will still exist.

There is some talk of purchases will require you to mine 1 share for the network in a future version.  Then everybody is a miner contributing to the system.  Waiting a minute or so after clicking "purchase" is your contribution for having zero fees & zero tax.

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## newbitech

> *There will always be people who mine "for the good of the network" rather than for person profit.*  If the majority finally figure out that mining is worthless, the network I am sure will still exist.
> 
> There is some talk of purchases will require you to mine 1 share for the network in a future version.  Then everybody is a miner contributing to the system.  Waiting a minute or so after clicking "purchase" is your contribution for having zero fees & zero tax.


"for the good of the network".  Mining for the good of the network is frivolous with a successful currency tho.  It's an oxymoron I believe.   I am not sure where you got the idea that there will always be people mining for the good of the network rather than for profit. 

If that is the case, that people mine just for the sake of keeping the system going rather than an exercise in profit, then it's already failed IMO.  Yes, I can understand doing this in a test or setup environment.

As an exercise, lets think about this system in a close environment that doesn't scale.  In other words, a network among say 100 people.  The incentive to mine a finite resource is twofold.  1 so that the shares you do have are not diluted, 2 to validate everyone else transactions to make sure you are not getting scammed.  

Now as this scales, fewer and fewer people will be able to control the supply of bitcoins, fewer and fewer people will be able to validate the vastness of the total transactions in a time frame that doesn't limit every day decision making process.   

for instance, how do you know that the chain isn't already broken?  You trust.  You are not running the hash every time you make a purchase, are you?  Well why not?  Simple, because if you were to do that, you'd have to dedicate the hardware resources to win the block of hash every single time!  No instead we trust.  And the more transactions that more centralized that trust becomes.   

Now, you said something interesting about requiring you to mine 1 share for the network in a future version.  But that is shortsighted as well.  Now, not only are you enforcing an artificial limit, you enforcing trust in an artificial limit.  This makes the dead weight problem orders of magnitude worse!

No, i'd say bitcoin is a beta "product" that is not really a "product".  Its more like a solution.

Better solutions will come along.  A person doesn't need to invest a whole lot (certainly not $90 a coin!) to test drive this beta system.  

It was/is nice that people in collapsing currency environments with capital controls have a way to quickly store their wealth, but this has much more to do with the peer nature of bitcoins and the socialization of the technology than it does to do with store of value or anonymity, for those folks have already taken an extreme haircut on their previous currency, and would still need to convert out of bitcoin into a new currency to pay for life's necessities.  So its not even certain yet if bitcoin really helped them at all.  That still remains to be seen.

I could help them tho if people in the US keep sending dollars at bitcoins. 

Probably be a good idea for American's wanting to buy bit coins to take a look at the difference between what bitcoins trade for in other currencies in relation to what the USD trades for in those currencies.  

They might be surprised what they find!

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## ronpaulfollower999

> Bitcoins will end in tears.

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## thoughtomator

> I've posted on his videos before and he deletes anything I say.  He doesn't permit any intelligent conversation that doesn't fit into his personal uninformed bias.
> 
> He's a little bitch who knows nothing and shouldn't be paid attention to.


Probably because it's very clear you have a vested interest in pumping the value of Bitcoin regardless of the merits of the system. I'd likely do the same.

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## muh_roads

> "for the good of the network".  Mining for the good of the network is  frivolous with a successful currency tho.  It's an oxymoron I believe.    I am not sure where you got the idea that there will always be people  mining for the good of the network rather than for profit. 
> 
> If that is the case, that people mine just for the sake of keeping the  system going rather than an exercise in profit, then it's already failed  IMO.  Yes, I can understand doing this in a test or setup environment.


folding@home & SETI@home have no personal profit.  Yet people do it around the world with their screensavers for the good of science.  

The speed of the network and amount of users involved doesn't matter.  As few as two miners processing at the same speed are enough to handle all the transactions ever needed.  If an individual or government tries to own 51% of the network hashrate, the lead developers say it would be easy to isolate & ignore on the blockchain.

In fact, mining should be renamed once the majority of the 21 million are out in the ether over the next 12-15 years.  What you are really doing is processing the ledger transactions for the network.  Buyers sometimes have to pay a 0.0005 fee to be shared among miners every 10 minutes but this isn't a mandatory fee either I don't think...I'm not 100% sure how the tiny fee system works.  But lack of miners helping out with the system are the least of my concerns.

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## muh_roads

> Probably because it's very clear you have a vested interest in pumping the value of Bitcoin...


And you have a vested interest in pumping gold/silver/Ron/Rand Paul yet I am not going to attack you for it.




> ...regardless of the merits of the system. I'd likely do the same.


So you have an agenda to hate on BTC also.  You just admitted it. _"Regardless of the merits of the system"_ lol

Facts be damned...if someone posts about why BTC is rising in value to counter the uninformed arguments, you have decided you would rather stick your fingers in your ears and ignore reason like what a stupid liberal would do?

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## Czolgosz

Bitcoin, credit cards, U.S. dollars, etc. are faith.


The U.S. dollar will be the dominant religion until that Jeezus is found out to be the fraud that it is (i.e., when you need a wheelbarrow to buy a loaf of bread).  Not until that moment will 'muricans put their faith in another.

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## torchbearer

> folding@home & SETI@home have no personal profit.  Yet people do it around the world with their screensavers for the good of science.  
> 
> The speed of the network and amount of users involved doesn't matter.  As few as two miners processing at the same speed are enough to handle all the transactions ever needed.  If an individual or government tries to own 51% of the network hashrate, the lead developers say it would be easy to isolate & ignore on the blockchain.
> 
> In fact, mining should be renamed once the majority of the 21 million are out in the ether over the next 12-15 years.  What you are really doing is processing the ledger transactions for the network.  Buyers sometimes have to pay a 0.0005 fee to be shared among miners every 10 minutes but this isn't a mandatory fee either I don't think...I'm not 100% sure how the tiny fee system works.  But lack of miners helping out with the system are the least of my concerns.


 I process data for seti@home . I started with them before there was a boinc client. I also chipin computer time for the World Community Grid. they were working on aids research.

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## thoughtomator

> And you have a vested interest in pumping gold/silver/Ron/Rand Paul yet I am not going to attack you for it.


I have no vested interest in pumping anything, which is why I don't pump anything. Unlike your relationship to BitCoin, I stand to gain no particular benefit from adoption of a metallic standard that is not also gained by everyone else. Likewise, I gain nothing from a Paul ascendancy that is not also gained by everyone else.

That you immediately moved to attack my motives and swear false witness against me exposes you for what you really are.




> So you have an agenda to hate on BTC also.  You just admitted it. _"Regardless of the merits of the system"_ lol


I have no "agenda to hate on BTC". I have been silent to date on the subject having not had enough information to establish a position on the issue. The record shows this to be true.




> Facts be damned...if someone posts about why BTC is rising in value to counter the uninformed arguments, you have decided you would rather stick your fingers in your ears and ignore reason like what a stupid liberal would do?


I recognize a pump-and-dump financial scam when I see one, from many years of observing the crooks on Wall St. do exactly this. Your behavior fits the pattern of someone "talking their book" precisely. Your comment record also shows that you immediately move to insult as a first argument when anyone raises any concern about the soundness of BTC.

I have held my peace up until now but I will not remain silent knowing that Bitcoin is a confidence game, letting others get sucked into it. From here on in, you will receive negative rep every time you attempt to again push this scam on this site.

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## muh_roads

> Bitcoin, credit cards, U.S. dollars, etc. are faith.
> 
> The U.S. dollar will be the dominant religion until that Jeezus is found out to be the fraud that it is (i.e., when you need a wheelbarrow to buy a loaf of bread).  Not until that moment will 'muricans put their faith in another.


The two key differences are that Bitcoin has a finite amount unlike the others...and that money can be sent instantly around the world to anyone despite government restrictions of transfer.

Yes in a mad max future where electricity and internet is all but gone then BTC might be in trouble. lol

Doom & gloomers have been spouting $#@! forever.  If you want to keep listening to those people and hedge what little you have your whole life then that is your choice. We live in a digital age no matter how much people want to hate on that.  I like BTC because the people can have control of this digital age of currency transfer instead of TPTB.

Yes the west may fall some day, but as long as the petrodollar exists, it will be a very, very slow decline.  Our masters also live in the west.  They like it here just as much as we do and it is in their best interest to continue bombing brown people for resource conquest.  We can't change that.

I own metals but I am just not as concerned as so many others are.  Even when that day finally comes where the west falls apart, the BRICS nations will be running the show for the next 100 years and they will still trade digitally.

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## Tod

My neighbor is a farmer and some years ago he got into raising ostriches along with his mainstay, dairy.  He told me all about the benefits of ostriches and how practical they are and how they were going to be the future primary meat.  It didn't end well.  He got in a little late and got out too late.

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## muh_roads

> I have no vested interest in pumping anything, which is why I don't pump anything. Unlike your relationship to BitCoin, I stand to gain no particular benefit from adoption of a metallic standard that is not also gained by everyone else. Likewise, I gain nothing from a Paul ascendancy that is not also gained by everyone else.
> 
> That you immediately moved to attack my motives and swear false witness against me exposes you for what you really are.
> 
> I have no "agenda to hate on BTC". I have been silent to date on the subject having not had enough information to establish a position on the issue. The record shows this to be true.
> 
> I recognize a pump-and-dump financial scam when I see one, from many years of observing the crooks on Wall St. do exactly this. Your behavior fits the pattern of someone "talking their book" precisely. Your comment record also shows that you immediately move to insult as a first argument when anyone raises any concern about the soundness of BTC.
> 
> I have held my peace up until now but I will not remain silent knowing that Bitcoin is a confidence game, letting others get sucked into it. From here on in, you will receive negative rep every time you attempt to again push this scam on this site.


Sorry but comparing BTC to wall street proves you should still do a bit more reading.

If somebody has a question about BTC, why is it so hard for people to just ask a question instead of resorting to personal bias?  Yes you are acting just like a liberal.  Sorry if you hate that truth but you are.  Still acting as if you know more without knowing the facts.  Liberals do this all the time. Stubborn folk.

I know you're smarter than that.

If I'm not a surgeon, I'm not going to tell a surgeon how to do his job.  When I didn't understand BTC, I did research and asked questions before making up my mind.  You clearly haven't done any research at all to accuse a person of pumping for their sole benefit.

Here is a hint, finite supply that can send faster than the digital government fiat counterpart can help you too.

Do what you wish.  But if someone is going to attack BTC or my character I'm going to defend both.

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## amonasro

> That you immediately moved to attack my motives and swear false witness against me exposes you for what you really are.
> 
> I have held my peace up until now but I will not remain silent knowing that Bitcoin is a confidence game, letting others get sucked into it. From here on in, you will receive negative rep every time you attempt to again push this scam on this site.


Prepare to give lots of negative rep then. 

No one is making anybody buy bitcoins.

its pretty clear a lot of people don't understand these things  and just want to argue. 

Take some time to learn about them, how they're created, why they're created, and everything else before you judge. It might take awhile if you're not computer savvy or lack a programming or technical background.

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## muh_roads

> My neighbor is a farmer and some years ago he got into raising ostriches along with his mainstay, dairy.  He told me all about the benefits of ostriches and how practical they are and how they were going to be the future primary meat.  It didn't end well.  He got in a little late and got out too late.


heh, I dunno man, that really doesn't compare at all.  This is the fastest, most secure network in the world right now to prevent against double-spending the same coin.

But yeah, if the moral of that story is to stay on your toes then I agree.

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## thoughtomator

> Do what you wish.  But if someone is going to attack BTC or my character I'm going to defend both.


Your character sucks, as any person can see from the content of your posts, almost every last one of which contains an insult.

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## thoughtomator

> Prepare to give lots of negative rep then. 
> 
> No one is making anybody buy bitcoins.
> 
> its pretty clear a lot of people don't understand these things  and just want to argue. 
> 
> Take some time to learn about them, how they're created, why they're created, and everything else before you judge. It might take awhile if you're not computer savvy or lack a programming or technical background.


I have no objection to logical argument on either side of the issue. I have a strong objection to heavy-handed marketing tactics.

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## muh_roads

> I have no objection to logical argument on either side of the issue...


But you just said you would delete my post on the "ponzi" video...*regardless of the merits of the system*.

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## muh_roads

> Your character sucks, as any person can see from the content of your posts, almost every last one of which contains an insult.


How is it an insult when it is truth?  Sorry if you don't like hearing that you're acting with stubborn bias.

I'm going to defend myself if I'm going to be compared to a Wall Street scumbag.

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## muh_roads

> I have held my peace up until now but I  will not remain silent knowing that Bitcoin is a confidence game,  letting others get sucked into it. From here on in, you will receive  negative rep every time you attempt to again push this scam on this  site.


I didn't catch this until now...Wow.  Agenda much? Almost sounds ban worthy.  lol

I would not advise non-stop unwarranted negative rep based on personal definition of a "scam".

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## silverhandorder

When I can use them as easily as my debit card then we will talk. Right now the exchange rate and needed precaution are not worth it. I don't plan to use bitcoins for savings, if I am going to use them it is to buy things.

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## psi2941

> I have no vested interest in pumping anything, which is why I don't pump anything. Unlike your relationship to BitCoin, I stand to gain no particular benefit from adoption of a metallic standard that is not also gained by everyone else. Likewise, I gain nothing from a Paul ascendancy that is not also gained by everyone else.
> 
> That you immediately moved to attack my motives and swear false witness against me exposes you for what you really are.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no "agenda to hate on BTC". I have been silent to date on the subject having not had enough information to establish a position on the issue. The record shows this to be true.
> 
> 
> ...


REP POINTS! I was never good at writing but everything in that post, i wanted to say.




> Prepare to give lots of negative rep then. 
> 
> No one is making anybody buy bitcoins.
> 
> its pretty clear a lot of people don't understand these things  and just want to argue. 
> 
> Take some time to learn about them, how they're created, why they're created, and everything else before you judge. It might take awhile if you're not computer savvy or lack a programming or technical background.


I'm not the one pumping bit coins on a ronpaul forums if you want your more than welcome to pump the bitcoin on bitcoin forums. Heres a link and don't let the door hit you on the way out. https://bitcointalk.org/

EDIT: lol they have their own economics board run by Hazak https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=7.0

Rep too Hazak for no longer pumping bitcoin on this board.

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## KerriAnn

If bitcoins are so difficult to understand, why would the general public ever invest in them?

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## DGambler

> If bitcoins are so difficult to understand, why would the general public ever invest in them?


How many people understand fractional reserve banking, yet still participate wholeheartedly?  BTC is still a baby.... Will it win out?  Maybe or maybe not, but crypto currency is here to stay.  This type of financial system plus an ever increasing sophistication in 3d printers are going to change the world.

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## KerriAnn

> How many people understand fractional reserve banking, yet still participate wholeheartedly?  BTC is still a baby.... Will it win out?  Maybe or maybe not, but crypto currency is here to stay.  This type of financial system plus an ever increasing sophistication in 3d printers are going to change the world.


But it took hundreds of years of trickery for our "wholehearted" participation in fractional reserve banking.

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## psi2941

> How many people understand fractional reserve banking, yet still participate wholeheartedly?  BTC is still a baby.... Will it win out?  Maybe or maybe not, but crypto currency is here to stay.  This type of financial system plus an ever increasing sophistication in 3d printers are going to change the world.


I have nothing against bitcoin, if you want to use it its your business. However when people with a personal gain are pumping bitcoins on this forums under "sound money" i have a problem with. If you like bitcoin so much, theres a place for you on this forum https://bitcointalk.org/.

----------


## KerriAnn

> I have nothing against bitcoin, if you want to use it its your business. However when people with a personal gain are pumping bitcoins on this forums under "sound money" i have a problem with. If you like bitcoin so much, theres a place for you on this forum https://bitcointalk.org/.


well said. +rep.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> I have no vested interest in pumping anything, which is why I don't pump anything. Unlike your relationship to BitCoin, I stand to gain no particular benefit from adoption of a metallic standard that is not also gained by everyone else. Likewise, I gain nothing from a Paul ascendancy that is not also gained by everyone else.
> 
> That you immediately moved to attack my motives and swear false witness against me exposes you for what you really are.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no "agenda to hate on BTC". I have been silent to date on the subject having not had enough information to establish a position on the issue. The record shows this to be true.
> 
> 
> ...



Isn't that just it, though?  The crooks on Wall St. are NOT pumping this.  That, in my mind, makes it more legit.  Instead, we have a bunch of individuals who pump it because they are invested... well, no $#@!!  Isn't that what people do?  At least we are not a big Wall St. investor where what we say actually has an influence on the market.  This reminds me of Rotschild pumping the demise of England and then buying it back for pennies on the dollar.  Nobody you see here is a Rotschild banker or Wall St. investor.  We don't hold much sway, so at least SOME of what's going on here is NOT due to pumping but is actually legitimate transactions happening with bitcoins.  

The thing you fail to realize is that you telling us we're pumping it like Wall St is fallacious exactly because we are NOT Wall St.

----------


## Petar

> I have nothing against bitcoin, if you want to use it its your business. However when people with a personal gain are pumping bitcoins on this forums under "sound money" i have a problem with. If you like bitcoin so much, theres a place for you on this forum https://bitcointalk.org/.


If you can't logically explain why bitcoin isn't really sound-money then your whole point of view is totally useless.

----------


## TonySutton

Disclaimer:  I am not invested in Bitcoin at all

I love the idea of bitcoin for one reason and one reason only.  Competition!

----------


## newbitech

> If you can't logically explain why bitcoin isn't really sound-money then your whole point of view is totally useless.


I'd like to hear a logical explanation on why it IS sound money.

1.) it is not time tested
2.) it has fluctuated wildly
3.) it is not a store of value
4.) it is not backed by anything tangible

These are all criteria that I have found to be true of sound money.

----------


## Romulus

I bought one today.... and it's already up a couple more than what I locked in at. I should've bought 2 or 3.

----------


## newbitech

> I bought one today.... and it's already up a couple more than what I locked in at. I should've bought 2 or 3.


you watching the price action?

----------


## FSP-Rebel

> I have nothing against bitcoin, if you want to use it its your business. However when people with a personal gain are pumping bitcoins on this forums under "sound money" i have a problem with. If you like bitcoin so much, theres a place for you on this forum https://bitcointalk.org/.


I see no problem with helping expose people that are members here or guests to the BTC phenomenon. They're free to do their own research and I highly encourage people to monitor the site you posted as it's the one-stop shop for all info relating to BTC. And, as one reads up over there even the experts freely say that anything is possible in terms of it going belly-up. Yet, they are long on BTC because they are hell bent on being revolutionaries that are working to subvert central bankers. And if they turn out wealthy in the process then so be it. Virtually all of the posters over there have been BTC holders from early on and have already made significant sums and some claim to be rich. Plus, all of them are very well knowledgeable in web development and other computer related stuff whereas I'm not. It's hard for common folk to follow along and it's easier here because the proponents explain things much more clearer.

Back to BTC, there's no doubt that speculation is involved, it just all depends on how strongly one believes in the fundamentals and where that will lead. I've known about this currency ever since it was a few dollars a piece which is about 1.5-2 yrs ago as it's been advertised on FTL and discussed at length during this previous time period. As usual, I was slow to catch on and see the benefits and only recently have I done my due diligence which has ignited my fire for them. Prior to this, every time BTC was promoted or talked about on that show I'd cringe and  to the point it would make me aggravated. I think it's fair and healthy for BTC to be discussed here as it allows other liberty lovers to catch on and either pass on it or allow them to get in the game now or soon.

----------


## thoughtomator

> Isn't that just it, though?  The crooks on Wall St. are NOT pumping this.  That, in my mind, makes it more legit.


There are already Bitcoin hedge funds. Wall St. isn't too interested right now because they can steal more on a Saturday than the entire market value of all Bitcoin in existence.

----------


## Romulus

> you watching the price action?


Yeah, i wonder if somethings up.. someone buying a huge amount... attempt to manipulate??

Its either a huge bubble or a good thing.

----------


## Romulus

its climbing FAST

something is definitely up.

----------


## jclay2

this time is different. Surely something that is based off the creations of some 1's and 0's and goes up 5-10 percent every day should be trusted.

----------


## SpicyTurkey

> this time is different. Surely something that is based off the creations of some 1's and 0's and goes up 5-10 percent every day should be trusted.


It's a giant experiment, and we're the mice. An evolution of failure.

----------


## dannno

> this time is different. Surely something that is based off the creations of some 1's and 0's and goes up 5-10 percent every day should be trusted.





> It's a giant experiment, and we're the mice. An evolution of failure.


Knowledge fail.

----------


## kpitcher

The system that was designed to avoid banks is growing as trust in banks is falling. I think bitcoins is working for the reasons it was created. If my savings accounts were raided by the gov't I wouldn't trust banks either!

----------


## psi2941

> I see no problem with helping expose people that are members here or guests to the BTC phenomenon. They're free to do their own research and I highly encourage people to monitor the site you posted as it's the one-stop shop for all info relating to BTC. And, as one reads up over there even the experts freely say that anything is possible in terms of it going belly-up. Yet, they are long on BTC because they are hell bent on being revolutionaries that are working to subvert central bankers. And if they turn out wealthy in the process then so be it. Virtually all of the posters over there have been BTC holders from early on and have already made significant sums and some claim to be rich. Plus, all of them are very well knowledgeable in web development and other computer related stuff whereas I'm not. It's hard for common folk to follow along and it's easier here because the proponents explain things much more clearer.
> 
> Back to BTC, there's no doubt that speculation is involved, it just all depends on how strongly one believes in the fundamentals and where that will lead. I've known about this currency ever since it was a few dollars a piece which is about 1.5-2 yrs ago as it's been advertised on FTL and discussed at length during this previous time period. As usual, I was slow to catch on and see the benefits and only recently have I done my due diligence which has ignited my fire for them. Prior to this, every time BTC was promoted or talked about on that show I'd cringe and  to the point it would make me aggravated. I think it's fair and healthy for BTC to be discussed here as it allows other liberty lovers to catch on and either pass on it or allow them to get in the game now or soon.


Rather speculation is involved and if its a really good buy i really don't give a $#@!. If you want have gay digital masturbation with bit coins i really don't care either. Like is said what really bothers me, if that fact you bozos are pedaling bitcoins as sound money. 

1. You guys make insane correlation how bit coins are so rare and can't be reproduced, they can only be "mined." Yet you fail to realize bit coin was man made from the beginning, and i'm a firm believer if it was made by man, it can be made by man again. 

2. I would say i'm very tech savvy, pirated every software, movie, and music since 6th grade. Built my first computer 3rd grade and never looked back. With this knowledge, for someone to say its "hack proof" is utter bull$#@!. No software in the world can be protected 100% ever, someone always finds a way to exploit something or someway its just fact. Even the holy grail of bull$#@! "apple products" are virus and malware free was proved bull$#@! 1 month ago, http://www.tuaw.com/2013/02/08/adobe...date-for-os-x/

3. you guys keep spreading the rumor that its hack proof the best mathematics and software developers has went through the system line by line and said its hack proof. Give me those names, who really when though the source code line by line. What are their professions and what do they do for living. you guys keep spreading that rumor but can't give me the source of that report and if you do its some bull$#@! unreliable source.

4. Then you guys can't seem to defend the argument bit coin doesn't really have any intrinsic value. The best you little kids can reply with is the argument of a 4 year old. Why? why? why? why? you guys try to deviate the argument saying what makes things intrinsic, intrinsic. It doesn't change the fact you can't touch, feel bit coins. 

Just sear utter bull$#@! after bull$#@!. of course your going to reply back with your $#@!ty arguments that doesn't even make sense to me how bit coins are so valuable blah blah blah blah. Just like how a politicians spin $#@!  but when the smoke clears people with a rational mind can clearly see in the end its just bunch of 1s and 0s on a hard drive.

but you know what that's cool with me, if you want to use bit coins use it. I just have a problem with the fact your pedalling that $#@! if its sound currency when its just another form if "FIAT" currency. THIS IS MY ONLY PROBLEM, I DONT CARE IF ITS A PONZI SCHEME, PUMP AND DUMP, ITS THE FACT ITS ANOTHER FIAT CURRENCY.

----------


## dannno

^Bitcoin is by definition NOT a fiat currency.




> Fiat money is money that derives its value from government regulation or law.


Bitcoin has the potential to be sound money, although because of the constant price increases it is difficult to consider it "sound" since the value continues to rise so quickly. But that is simply the nature of creating a new currency that ends up being very valuable in a world full of fiat currencies. It's not a flaw.

----------


## psi2941

> ^Bitcoin is by definition NOT a fiat currency.
> 
> 
> 
> Bitcoin has the potential to be sound money, although because of the constant price increases it is difficult to consider it "sound" since the value continues to rise so quickly. But that is simply the nature of creating a new currency that ends up being very valuable in a world full of fiat currencies. It's not a flaw.


like i just said you don't counter my argument with a valid point or a counter argument. Your best counter is to be the definition nazi and take the word "fiat" I meant in the terms of

"Currency that a government has declared to be legal tender, *despite the fact that it has no intrinsic value and is not backed by reserves. Historically, most currencies were based on physical commodities such as gold or silver, but fiat money is based solely on faith."*

Just like a politician can't attack the argument logically so just attack something else.

----------


## dannno

> like i just said you don't counter my argument with a valid point or a counter argument. Your best counter is to be the definition nazi and take the word "fiat" I meant in the terms of
> 
> "Currency that a government has declared to be legal tender, *despite the fact that it has no intrinsic value and is not backed by reserves. Historically, most currencies were based on physical commodities such as gold or silver, but fiat money is based solely on faith."*
> 
> Just like a politician can't attack the argument logically so just attack something else.



You don't get that bitcoin offers a very valuable service in a world full of banking cartels and fiat currencies, that IS the backing and that is what is going to continue to drive the price higher for years to come.

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

> Rather speculation is involved and if its a really good buy i really don't give a $#@!. If you want have gay digital masturbation with bit coins i really don't care either. Like is said what really bothers me, if that fact you bozos are pedaling bitcoins as sound money. 
> 
> 1. You guys make insane correlation how bit coins are so rare and can't be reproduced, they can only be "mined." Yet you fail to realize bit coin was man made from the beginning, and i'm a firm believer if it was made by man, it can be made by man again.


Stopped right there. Please study up on Bitcoins a bit more. 

Also, your sig sucks.

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

> like i just said you don't counter my argument with a valid point or a counter argument. Your best counter is to be the definition nazi and take the word "fiat" I meant in the terms of
> 
> "Currency that a government has declared to be legal tender, *despite the fact that it has no intrinsic value and is not backed by reserves. Historically, most currencies were based on physical commodities such as gold or silver, but fiat money is based solely on faith."*
> 
> Just like a politician can't attack the argument logically so just attack something else.


There is no limit to the amount of dollars that the government can print. There is a limited supply of gold, silver, and Bitcoins. Bitcoins are the complete opposite of fiat, since there IS a limit to the amount that will be created (21 million). They don't need the full faith and credit of a central authority.

----------


## Petar

People also need to realize that bitcoin's scarcity is secured by the fact that the bitcoin community is open-source, and dictated by self-interest in its own creation/investment.

It's not gold, but it has its own unique advantages.

And it's not like the money cartels have not figured out major ways to mess with the price of gold, despite its limited physical nature. 

Bitcoin represents a whole new set of challenges for them.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> I'd like to hear a logical explanation on why it IS sound money.
> 
> 1.) it is not time tested
> 2.) it has fluctuated wildly
> 3.) it is not a store of value
> 4.) it is not backed by anything tangible
> 
> These are all criteria that I have found to be true of sound money.


1. By that logic, nothing new would be worth anything long term.  Maybe if you give it a chance it will become established.
2. This ties in with #1.  It is not time-tested, so of course it's going to fluctuate.  Everything needs time to weed out a place in the market.
3. This also goes back to #1.  If it was time-tested, then it may very well would prove to be a store of value.  Who knows.  That can't be determined right now because it's so new.  
4. Just because we never had this system before, that doesn't mean it can't function.  There is no rule that says money has to be a physical asset.  That's just what we're used to, which gets us back to the time-tested thing.  It's new, and it could be revolutionary.  It's backed by the fact that it is a uniquely encrypted coin that cannot be inflated arbitrarily and is not subject to oversight/regulation.  The benefits are undeniable.  Some of them may be questionable, but that just gets us back to the time-tested thing.  Give it some time and the chinks can easily be worked out.  

Those are all criteria you made up for money because that is all you know.  Maybe you should consider allowing room for something new instead of holding to the old paradigm that money must be physical.  

Meanwhile, the BTC jumps another $10 and I just made money off of it.  Just out of curiosity, what would the price of a bitcoin have to rise to in order for you to think it was legit?  $1000?  $10,000?

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> you watching the price action?


I've been watching, but I always seem to miss the big jumps.  Every time I go away and come back, it gains another $8-10.  I should go away more often!

----------


## FSP-Rebel

> Just sear utter bull$#@! after bull$#@!. of course your going to reply back with your $#@!ty arguments that doesn't even make sense to me how bit coins are so valuable blah blah blah blah. Just like how a politicians spin $#@!  but when the smoke clears people with a rational mind can clearly see in the end its just bunch of 1s and 0s on a hard drive.
> 
> but you know what that's cool with me, if you want to use bit coins use it. I just have a problem with the fact your pedalling that $#@! if its sound currency when its just another form if "FIAT" currency. THIS IS MY ONLY PROBLEM, I DONT CARE IF ITS A PONZI SCHEME, PUMP AND DUMP, ITS THE FACT ITS ANOTHER FIAT CURRENCY.


See, like I said in another thread if we had our own BTC subforum you wouldn't be able to roidrage like you're doing here. Also, funny how you lump every BTC user together in your own unique little bubble wrap. Kind of reminds me of how the media was telling everyone and their brothers that Ron Paul supporters are all youngsters living in their parents' basements. I'm also very proud of you in that you're such a computer whiz yet you're the one that plugged the website that I applauded you for, so it might be a great idea for you to get an account over there and put on a spectacle for us. The point is, those of us that have got involved with this obviously have a lot of trust in the idea of attempting to push this concept in as much of the mainstream as possible all the while knowing the risks. I appreciate your militant objections even if you don't respect my thoughts on the subject.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> There are already Bitcoin hedge funds. Wall St. isn't too interested right now because they can steal more on a Saturday than the entire market value of all Bitcoin in existence.


I hope it rises enough to where they get involved.  That's when the real money starts flowing.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Rather speculation is involved and if its a really good buy i really don't give a $#@!. If you want have gay digital masturbation with bit coins i really don't care either. Like is said what really bothers me, if that fact you bozos are pedaling bitcoins as sound money. 
> 
> 1. You guys make insane correlation how bit coins are so rare and can't be reproduced, they can only be "mined." Yet you fail to realize bit coin was man made from the beginning, and i'm a firm believer if it was made by man, it can be made by man again. 
> 
> 2. I would say i'm very tech savvy, pirated every software, movie, and music since 6th grade. Built my first computer 3rd grade and never looked back. With this knowledge, for someone to say its "hack proof" is utter bull$#@!. No software in the world can be protected 100% ever, someone always finds a way to exploit something or someway its just fact. Even the holy grail of bull$#@! "apple products" are virus and malware free was proved bull$#@! 1 month ago, http://www.tuaw.com/2013/02/08/adobe...date-for-os-x/
> 
> 3. you guys keep spreading the rumor that its hack proof the best mathematics and software developers has went through the system line by line and said its hack proof. Give me those names, who really when though the source code line by line. What are their professions and what do they do for living. you guys keep spreading that rumor but can't give me the source of that report and if you do its some bull$#@! unreliable source.
> 
> 4. Then you guys can't seem to defend the argument bit coin doesn't really have any intrinsic value. The best you little kids can reply with is the argument of a 4 year old. Why? why? why? why? you guys try to deviate the argument saying what makes things intrinsic, intrinsic. It doesn't change the fact you can't touch, feel bit coins. 
> ...


I think you might have missed the 21st century.  Wake up and smell the bitcoin, man.  The world runs on electronics and these days anything can have value.  Just because it's never been done before, doesn't mean it shouldn't.  Just because money has always been physical, that doesn't mean it's a hard rule that it has to be.  In fact, I would argue that the fact we have to fish for physical paper dollars is what makes the dollar so useless.  Gold is only better because it can't be printed, but nothing says all money must be physical in order to have value.

You also don't understand the concept of a fiat currency.  It's not just physical backing that determines whether it's fiat.  It's government control, something bitcoin was made precisely to combat.  The reason the dollar has any value at all is because of usury laws, not because the government says it thinks we should use dollars.  Bitcoin wasn't started by usury laws, it was started by the marketplace.  That, in and of itself, precludes it from being fiat.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> like i just said you don't counter my argument with a valid point or a counter argument. Your best counter is to be the definition nazi and take the word "fiat" I meant in the terms of
> 
> "Currency that a government has declared to be legal tender, *despite the fact that it has no intrinsic value and is not backed by reserves. Historically, most currencies were based on physical commodities such as gold or silver, but fiat money is based solely on faith."*
> 
> Just like a politician can't attack the argument logically so just attack something else.


If the government declares gold to be the only legal tender, then that would likely increase its value.  What you should be paying attention to, instead of that, is the fact that this currency received no help from the government and has received no significant help from Wall St. or any significant figure pumping it up, AND YET... it STILL has climbed from 0-120 in a matter of months purely because the marketplace decided it had value.

----------


## cubical

This time, it's different.

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

I have charts too.

----------


## cubical

> I have charts too.


Why don't you push the chart back a bit?

Even if 2000 was the beginning of gold's existence a move from 300 to 1900 over the course of 11 years does not compare to 10 to 110 over the course of 3 months.

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

Bitcoin price chart in log form, because a $10 increase in price is completely different at $10 than it is at $100:

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

> Why don't you push the chart back a bit?
> 
> Even if 2000 was the beginning of gold's existence a move from 300 to 1900 over the course of 11 years does not compare to 10 to 110 over the course of 3 months.




Actually looks like Bitcoins stretched out over 40 years....lol.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Actually looks like Bitcoins stretched out over 40 years....lol.


Yep, except for the recent plateau.  Bitcoin shows no signs of stopping yet.

----------


## Arklatex

I support any non-fed currency, even if it's acorns.

*Acorns > Fed Notes*

----------


## cubical

> Actually looks like Bitcoins stretched out over 40 years....lol.


Your chart is off. Gold was over 800 in 1980. Regardless it made a 6x move in 11 years. Bit coin made a 11x move in 3 months.

But yeah, its the same as gold.

----------


## cubical

> Yep, except for the recent plateau.  Bitcoin shows no signs of stopping yet.


Sign of a store of value. Something that goes straight up is the sign of a bubble.

----------


## Petar

> Sign of a store of value. Something that goes straight up is the sign of a bubble.


Ok, so the automobile was a bad invention because Ford stocks gained a lot of value on the market. 

Do you realize that Paul Krugman is a harsh critic of bitcoin?

That alone should make you start questioning your own narrow-minded dogmatic beliefs in this case.

----------


## RickyJ

> You still have not described the mechanism by which bitcoin might fail in the marketplace and lose all its value.


Funny! To me it already has zero value! Buy bitcoins if you want them, but don't try to give them to me for anything I am selling, I won't take them!

----------


## Petar

> Funny! To me it already has zero value! Buy bitcoins if you want them, but don't try to give them to me for anything I am selling, I won't take them!


And this proves what exactly?

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Sign of a store of value. Something that goes straight up is the sign of a bubble.


That has yet to be determined.  I'm sure some of it is speculation, but that just goes without saying.  A lot of it is legitimate.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Funny! To me it already has zero value! Buy bitcoins if you want them, but don't try to give them to me for anything I am selling, I won't take them!


LOL 

You're behind the curve, but you'll catch up when bitcoin replaces the dollar.

----------


## amonasro

> I support any non-fed currency, even if it's acorns.
> 
> *Acorns > Fed Notes*


Think of bitcoins as digital acorns. They are freely traded among acorn lovers who don't trust fiat currency. 

The acorns are awarded by robot squirrels at a predictable rate to searchers. The squirrels cannot ever be bought, swayed or reasoned with, and their brains are open-source. Thousands exist all over the world and they are identical and decentralized. Using their rules and their forest, we are allowed to search for more acorns until 21 million exist. The more people searching, the bigger the forest gets and the more difficult they become to find. The searchers, in their search, are also verifying transactions of other acorn traders and being awarded small transaction fees in the process. Once all 21 million acorns are found, these fees will be all that are left to find. 

Oh, and each acorn has the equivalent of a 100 digit padlock. Only the owner holds the key that will verify the acorn's existence to the robot squirrels. Each acorn can also be subdivided into virtually unlimited pieces. 

So the analogy is a little stretched, but that's my current understanding of how it all works.

----------


## cubical

> Ok, so the automobile was a bad invention because Ford stocks gained a lot of value on the market. 
> 
> Do you realize that Paul Krugman is a harsh critic of bitcoin?
> 
> That alone should make you start questioning your own narrow-minded dogmatic beliefs in this case.


What? Where did I say things can not go up in value?

Krugman isn't wrong about all things. Talk about being narrow minded.

And why am I narrow minded for thinking it is a bubble. Why aren't you narrow minded for thinking this is one of the only sustainable parabolic charts in history?

----------


## jclay2

> What? Where did I say things can not go up in value?
> 
> Krugman isn't wrong about all things. Talk about being narrow minded.
> 
> And why am I narrow minded for thinking it is a bubble. Why aren't you narrow minded for thinking this is one of the only sustainable parabolic charts in history?


+ rep. My thoughts to his posts as well.

----------


## newbitech

> 1. By that logic, nothing new would be worth anything long term.  Maybe if you give it a chance it will become established.
> 2. This ties in with #1.  It is not time-tested, so of course it's going to fluctuate.  Everything needs time to weed out a place in the market.
> 3. This also goes back to #1.  If it was time-tested, then it may very well would prove to be a store of value.  Who knows.  That can't be determined right now because it's so new.  
> 4. Just because we never had this system before, that doesn't mean it can't function.  There is no rule that says money has to be a physical asset.  That's just what we're used to, which gets us back to the time-tested thing.  It's new, and it could be revolutionary.  It's backed by the fact that it is a uniquely encrypted coin that cannot be inflated arbitrarily and is not subject to oversight/regulation.  The benefits are undeniable.  Some of them may be questionable, but that just gets us back to the time-tested thing.  Give it some time and the chinks can easily be worked out.  
> 
> *Those are all criteria you made up for money because that is all you know.*  Maybe you should consider allowing room for something new instead of holding to the old paradigm that money must be physical.  
> 
> Meanwhile, the BTC jumps another $10 and I just made money off of it.  Just out of curiosity, what would the price of a bitcoin have to rise to in order for you to think it was legit?  $1000?  $10,000?


you sure about that?  I just gave 4 things that bitcoin is not and sound money is.  I didn't list all the criteria, and I certainly didn't make that up.  Not only have I considered it, I actually have some of the new stuff.  I am not sure what point you make in attempting to accuse me of whatever it is you are accusing me of, but I am quite sure that your argument is "just wait", sort of doesn't really hold up.  

Petar laid the burden of proof on another poster in this thread to prove that Bitcoin is not sound money.  That's pretty easy.  It never was, and up until very recently, it's USD conversion rate was pretty steady, but once the talk about it becoming a replacement heated up, that changed too.  Sound money doesn't fluctuate wildly.  And it certainly doesn't allow the USD to dictate its value.

So reality is, this thing bitcoin was no more valuable today than in was when it was first created.  BUT, you see the price action?  That's how we know it's not "sound". 

Potential, sure, but if you go back and read Petars words to that other poster, he wasn't talking about potential.

----------


## RickyJ

> LOL 
> 
> You're behind the curve, but you'll catch up when bitcoin replaces the dollar.


There is a sucker born every minute. I just didn't think there would be so many suckers on RPFs.

----------


## newbitech

> There is a sucker born every minute. I just didn't think there would be so many suckers on RPFs.


its funny, people don't have to be suckers.  people can offer their service for bitcoins instead of spending their hard earned FIAT on them.  Why don't we see that?  It's really curious.

I'd like to see a show of hands for people who are wanting to use their bitcoins to purchase some goods or services from me.  Let me know how many bitcoins you are willing to spend and what you are in the market for.

I will offer goods and services in exchange for some bitcoins, but only if people are willing to part with them.

----------


## idiom

> You still have not described the mechanism by which bitcoin might fail in the marketplace and lose all its value.


Feds cracking down on ppl for not accounting for capital gain.
Feds cracking down for exporting bitcoin and not reporting it properly
Feds cracking down because it not actually anonymous.
Feds cracking down on people using temporary wallets.

Lotsa ways it could hit a revulsion threshold.

----------


## Ignostic?

> its funny, people don't have to be suckers.  people can offer their service for bitcoins instead of spending their hard earned FIAT on them.  Why don't we see that?  It's really curious.
> 
> I'd like to see a show of hands for people who are wanting to use their bitcoins to purchase some goods or services from me.  Let me know how many bitcoins you are willing to spend and what you are in the market for.
> 
> I will offer goods and services in exchange for some bitcoins, but only if people are willing to part with them.



People already buying nice cars with bitcoins.

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## Ignostic?

First off, "fiat" means "by government decree".  Without that government decree, something cannot be fiat.  Get over it, y'all.

Nothing has intrinsic value.  Value is a property that is bestowed upon something by a living organism, whether it be tangible or not.  A squirrel can value a nut, but that nut has no value without the squirrel.  A person can value a video game they download off Steam, despite it having no tangibility.  A rock can't value anything, but a mason can value a rock.

I don't really like the argument that an asteroid full of gold could hit us and cause the gold price to plummet.  That's far too unlikely to take seriously.  What I think is a much more relevant argument is that an asteroid full of gold that doesn't hit us has no value because it is of no use to anybody.  Gold does not have intrinsic value because its value is completely dependent on people being able to make use of it.  Some people might want it because it looks pretty to them.  Others might not like the look of gold at all.  For most people on this forum, gold's value comes from its increasing value relative to the dollar.  It's circular.  Gold's value comes from it's expected value in the future.  Most of y'all who claim that gold has intrinsic value will just leave it in a drawer or somewhere equivalent.  I doubt anybody here owns an electronics factory.  Maybe there are some dentists.  I'm sure there's a small minority that actually has some use for gold, but for the majority it is just a chunk of metal that will sit there and do nothing.  Y'all just assume that other people will be willing to trade more dollars for it in the future.  Or Euros, I guess.  You're certainly not going to be able to buy gasoline or order something off the internet with it.  That's because gold sucks as a currency in the modern world.  It worked great for a long long time, but so did the horse and buggy.  

A large part of Bitcoin's value also comes from the expectation of a greater value in the future, but in addition to that, Bitcoin offers greater utility than gold to most people.  I've never heard anybody explain the utility of a few gold coins sitting in a drawer.  The only worthwhile thing you can do with gold coins is sell them for a currency that can actually be traded for things that you do have use for.  That's a pain in the ass.  And that person that buys them from you probably wants to copy down your driver's license information so they can come get you if its fake.  Because it is easy to fake a gold coin.  It is not easy to fake a bitcoin.  After the initial setup at MtGox, it is extremely easy to buy and sell bitcoins.  Easier than buying gold or silver.  No shipping charge.  And look, you can buy an iPad with bitcoins.  Can you do that with gold?  

Value is completely subjective.  Dollars do have value.  Real value.  Because you can trade them for damn near anything.  It just sucks that it takes more and more dollars to get those things.  It also sucks that it is expensive and slow to send dollars around the world (although still cheaper and faster than gold).  The only advantage gold has over dollars is a relatively guaranteed scarcity.  Gold's portability and transferabilty sucks, though.  It is very clunky to use as a currency in the modern world.  Gold had a good run, but times have changed.

Would somebody care to explain how they believe that value can be an intrinsic property?  Good electrical conductivity is an intrinsic property of gold.  So is good malleability and corrosion resistance.  Gold has these properties even if it is in another galaxy.  That's what makes those properties intrinsic.  Gold only has value on Earth, though.  That makes its value subjective.  Just like Bitcoin.  Gold will make a better necklace, but Bitcoin will make a better currency.

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## newbitech

> *First off, "fiat" means "by government decree"*.  Without that government decree, something cannot be fiat.  Get over it, y'all.
> 
> Nothing has intrinsic value.  Value is a property that is bestowed upon something by a living organism, whether it be tangible or not.  A squirrel can value a nut, but that nut has no value without the squirrel.  A person can value a video game they download off Steam, despite it having no tangibility.  A rock can't value anything, but a mason can value a rock.
> 
> I don't really like the argument that an asteroid full of gold could hit us and cause the gold price to plummet.  That's far too unlikely to take seriously.  What I think is a much more relevant argument is that an asteroid full of gold that doesn't hit us has no value because it is of no use to anybody.  Gold does not have intrinsic value because its value is completely dependent on people being able to make use of it.  Some people might want it because it looks pretty to them.  Others might not like the look of gold at all.  For most people on this forum, gold's value comes from its increasing value relative to the dollar.  It's circular.  Gold's value comes from it's expected value in the future.  Most of y'all who claim that gold has intrinsic value will just leave it in a drawer or somewhere equivalent.  I doubt anybody here owns an electronics factory.  Maybe there are some dentists.  I'm sure there's a small minority that actually has some use for gold, but for the majority it is just a chunk of metal that will sit there and do nothing.  Y'all just assume that other people will be willing to trade more dollars for it in the future.  Or Euros, I guess.  You're certainly not going to be able to buy gasoline or order something off the internet with it.  That's because gold sucks as a currency in the modern world.  It worked great for a long long time, but so did the horse and buggy.  
> 
> A large part of Bitcoin's value also comes from the expectation of a greater value in the future, but in addition to that, Bitcoin offers greater utility than gold to most people.  I've never heard anybody explain the utility of a few gold coins sitting in a drawer.  The only worthwhile thing you can do with gold coins is sell them for a currency that can actually be traded for things that you do have use for.  That's a pain in the ass.  And that person that buys them from you probably wants to copy down your driver's license information so they can come get you if its fake.  Because it is easy to fake a gold coin.  It is not easy to fake a bitcoin.  After the initial setup at MtGox, it is extremely easy to buy and sell bitcoins.  Easier than buying gold or silver.  No shipping charge.  And look, you can buy an iPad with bitcoins.  Can you do that with gold?  
> 
> Value is completely subjective.  Dollars do have value.  Real value.  Because you can trade them for damn near anything.  It just sucks that it takes more and more dollars to get those things.  It also sucks that it is expensive and slow to send dollars around the world (although still cheaper and faster than gold).  The only advantage gold has over dollars is a relatively guaranteed scarcity.  Gold's portability and transferabilty sucks, though.  It is very clunky to use as a currency in the modern world.  Gold had a good run, but times have changed.
> ...


actually, it can also mean "without intrinsic value", but competing definitions aren't really important.  Who can honestly say what bitcoin is at this point besides just describing how it "works".

Can you point me to the portion of the threat that shows proof the car transaction occurred?

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## PaulConventionWV

> you sure about that?  I just gave 4 things that bitcoin is not and sound money is.  I didn't list all the criteria, and I certainly didn't make that up.  Not only have I considered it, I actually have some of the new stuff.  I am not sure what point you make in attempting to accuse me of whatever it is you are accusing me of, but I am quite sure that your argument is "just wait", sort of doesn't really hold up.  
> 
> Petar laid the burden of proof on another poster in this thread to prove that Bitcoin is not sound money.  That's pretty easy.  It never was, and up until very recently, it's USD conversion rate was pretty steady, but once the talk about it becoming a replacement heated up, that changed too.  Sound money doesn't fluctuate wildly.  And it certainly doesn't allow the USD to dictate its value.
> 
> So reality is, this thing bitcoin was no more valuable today than in was when it was first created.  BUT, you see the price action?  That's how we know it's not "sound". 
> 
> Potential, sure, but if you go back and read Petars words to that other poster, he wasn't talking about potential.


Are you even listening?  I know sound money doesn't fluctuate wildly.  That's because the bitcoin is still new.  Everything fluctuates when it's new.  There's no point in talking about value if you don't even consider the potential it has.  Just because it's not stable now, that doesn't mean it will never be.

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## PaulConventionWV

> actually, it can also mean "without intrinsic value", but competing definitions aren't really important.  Who can honestly say what bitcoin is at this point besides just describing how it "works".
> 
> Can you point me to the portion of the threat that shows proof the car transaction occurred?


Lol.  You're being really suspicious.  Somebody points out a legitimate transaction that happened with BTC, and you say "Nuh uh! Prove it!"

I would buy things with bitcoins.  It just depends on the price.  It's much easier to buy things with BTC than to form contracts, but that's just because BTC is still in its early stages.  It takes TIME to become a viable currency.  It doesn't happen overnight no matter what currency it is.  So pointing out the fact that it is unstable is just stupid right now.  Everyone knows it's unstable, but that doesn't really mean anything besides the fact that it's new.  Give it time.

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## newbitech

> Lol.  You're being really suspicious.  Somebody *points out a legitimate transaction that happened with BTC*, and you say "Nuh uh! Prove it!"
> 
> I would buy things with bitcoins.  It just depends on the price.  It's much easier to buy things with BTC than to form contracts, but that's just because BTC is still in its early stages.  It takes TIME to become a viable currency.  It doesn't happen overnight no matter what currency it is.  So pointing out the fact that it is unstable is just stupid right now.  Everyone knows it's unstable, but that doesn't really mean anything besides the fact that it's new.  Give it time.


i have other questions, but it would be pointless to ask if that is bs.

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## PaulConventionWV

> i have other questions, but it would be pointless to ask if that is bs.


The point is, you're judging it to be BS before you know anything about it.  You're quick to hate, so you're not being very rational.

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## newbitech

> The point is, you're judging it to be BS before you know anything about it.  You're quick to hate, so you're not being very rational.


cause if its on the internet it must be true ...

so im assuming there is no proof since if there was, you'd point it out instead of calling me a hater and irrational.

anyways, looks like the guy had it for sale back in feb..

also looks like he changed his BTC price as the value of BTC in terms of USD went up..  

He probably could have also traded it for a semi truck of candy bars...

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## PaulConventionWV

> cause if its on the internet it must be true ...
> 
> so im assuming there is no proof since if there was, you'd point it out instead of calling me a hater and irrational.
> 
> anyways, looks like the guy had it for sale back in feb..
> 
> also looks like he changed his BTC price as the value of BTC in terms of USD went up..  
> 
> He probably could have also traded it for a semi truck of candy bars...


Oh my God!  Shady!

Seriously, get a life.  What's the point of all the hate?  Why not just wait and see like everyone else?

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## newbitech

> Oh my God!  Shady!
> 
> Seriously, get a life.  What's the point of all the hate?  Why not just wait and see like everyone else?


get a life? wow, talk about hate.  There was a time when I came to this forum for the truth.  Now, it's becoming more and more about entertainment.  The truth is, no one knows if someone really sold a $30,000 USD car for bit coins.  

Isn't that the truth?  You don't know, you just believe it.  You want me to wait and see like everyone else.  Fine, in the mean time, I will comment on what I see.  And right now, what I see is people trying to turn a quick buck off the thing.  Not impressed.

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## TonySutton

I think Bitcoin is the new gay on RPF.

Can we hit 200 posts!

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