# Lifestyles & Discussion > Peace Through Religion >  Is your belief strong enough to post without relying on attacking others?

## RJB

Let's see what you got.  Do you have a core or do you just lay in ambush to attack someone.  And usually these attacks are without full knowledge of what others believe.  I've seen topics on Mormonism, Judiasm, etc. go like this:  




> _Attacker:  You believe such and such.
> 
> Believer:  No I don't.
> 
> :  Yes you do.
> 
> :  No I don't
> 
> :  Well most people of your persuasion do.
> ...



There is a sticky about respecting the beliefs of others, but it's hard to do when most do not post their beliefs.   Sometimes it seems we are more anti-other religions and beliefs rather than believers.  So what's the point of posting in these threads unless you are trying to convert or enlighten.  I've yet to see a mass conversion from anything posted on the RPF religion section.  What's the point of these threads other than to get pissed at someone who you probably agree with +90% of the time?

It takes guts to post a belief.  It can be hard to explain the feeling you have in prayer, when reading scripture, etc.  The thread on posting your testimony is one of the few gems in this section.


Let's see what you have.  Christians, can you demonstrate the love of God that you say you feel?  Atheists, can you demonstrate your superior logic and reason that you claim to have?  New Agers, can you demonstrate the enlightenment you claim to have attained.  It goes on...  Let's see it.

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## PierzStyx

I wish i could get behind this post. I really do. Because, as a Mormon, I've had that experience over and over and *OVER* again. But it just seems like the internet is one giant circlejerk when it comes to religion. Either you're trying to shield your beliefs against someone else or you're stroking your own ego.

So I'm going to go at this from another way. Instead of stroking my own beliefs, I'm going to compliment another person's beliefs.

I generally love TER's posts. The Prophet Joseph Smith once said, " One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may."  I don't always agree in doctrine with some of TER's postings from Orthodox Saints. But I find their principles to be incredibly insightful and deeply Christian. I have found greater insights into some of my own thought processes by reading them. Applying their insights to my own beliefs has helped me approach them from another angle and gain deeper appreciation for the truth I have.

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## Brett85

I think it's good to discuss and debate these issues that we disagree on, but it should be done in a civil and respectful way.  I've never really understood why so many people take these disagreements so personally.

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## VIDEODROME

Hmm...  I'm a skeptic that kind of sees doubt in faith as a good thing.  I kind of try not to have strong beliefs on purpose.  

On a forum, I guess where I should go with that is to question other's beliefs and also turn that around and welcome having my own beliefs and ideas challenged even by other skeptics / atheists.  Even I should question my own beliefs.

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## Sola_Fide

> I kind of try not to have strong beliefs on purpose.


Is your belief that you shouldn't have strong beliefs itself a strong belief?

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## Miss Annie

> Let's see what you got.  Do you have a core or do you just lay in ambush to attack someone.  And usually these attacks are without full knowledge of what others believe.  I've seen topics on Mormonism, Judiasm, etc. go like this:  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a sticky about respecting the beliefs of others, but it's hard to do when most do not post their beliefs.   Sometimes it seems we are more anti-other religions and beliefs rather than believers.  So what's the point of posting in these threads unless you are trying to convert or enlighten.  I've yet to see a mass conversion from anything posted on the RPF religion section.  What's the point of these threads other than to get pissed at someone who you probably agree with +90% of the time?
> 
> It takes guts to post a belief.  It can be hard to explain the feeling you have in prayer, when reading scripture, etc.  The thread on posting your testimony is one of the few gems in this section.
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting this.  Sometimes it is "hard to watch" these discussions because of the turn that they take.  I usually don't get involved in them because they disintegrate into such meanness.  I agree that there is nothing wrong with debate, but the bible says "speak the truth in love".  The name calling, snark, and accusations just becomes too harsh at times, in my opinion..... whatever that is worth.

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## otherone

...just want to give a shout out to Moostraks....he or she always seems to testify positively (not to take away from other positive folks).

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## VIDEODROME

> Is your belief that you shouldn't have strong beliefs itself a strong belief?


 Many threads have gone down this discussion path before and I'm not sure this is relevant to this thread.  Also, the idea of going into this kind of discussion seems really boring and uninteresting.

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## heavenlyboy34

WRT the OP question, yes.  I prefer to avoid attacks because they're unproductive.  I generally wind up in the massive "debate" threads being defensive.  To the extent that I've been insulting and otherwise acted badly, those are simply my personal failings and I try to get better every day.

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## Sola_Fide

> ...just want to give a shout out to Moostraks....he or she always seems to testify positively (not to take away from other positive folks).


There is a _theological_ reason (and moral reason) that you feel less offended by people like Moostraks than people like me.

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## otherone

> There is a _theological_ reason (and moral reason) that you feel less offended by people like Moostraks than people like me.

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## Natural Citizen

otherone, yer avatr is freaky, man.

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## otherone

> otherone, yer avatr is freaky, man.


It's a "realistic" portrayal of Prof. Farnsworth of Futurama.

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## Brett85

> 


Ha ha!

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## Natural Citizen

> It's a "realistic" portrayal of Prof. Farnsworth of Futurama.


Oh. It's a pretty good knockoff. Did you make it? If I saw that thing as a youngin, I think I'd have nightmares. Like he's going to come and git me or something.

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## mosquitobite

> There is a _theological_ reason (and moral reason) that you feel less offended by people like Moostraks than people like me.


I'd love to hear your testimony on the thread RJB mentions Sola:  http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...Your-testimony

Is your belief strong enough to share it with us?  Wouldn't you want to share as fulfilling your part of the Great Commission?

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## otherone

> Oh. It's a pretty good knockoff. Did you make it?


It's from teh webz.

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## Sola_Fide

> I'd love to hear your testimony on the thread RJB mentions Sola:  http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...Your-testimony
> 
> Is your belief strong enough to share it with us?  Wouldn't you want to share as fulfilling your part of the Great Commission?


I read that thread but I'd rather just talk about the gospel of grace vs. the false gospel of works.

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## green73

> 


omg. you win the internet.

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## Sola_Fide

> 


That makes no sense.  Sola Fide means it's all about God, and not man.

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## green73

> That makes no sense.  Sola Fide means it's all about God, and not man.


OMG, we see now who Sola Fide is, and he's a dirty ancap! I would have thought you older.

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## GunnyFreedom

This isn't just a problem in the religion threads though; this kind of dialogue happens everywhere.

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## thoughtomator

> I read that thread but I'd rather just talk about the gospel of grace vs. the false gospel of works.


just in case you were wondering, nobody else wants to talk about that at all

also we all know the only reason _you_ want to talk about it is that it swells your ego to discuss something you actually know something about

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## Sola_Fide

> just in case you were wondering, nobody else wants to talk about that at all
> 
> also we all know the only reason _you_ want to talk about it is that it swells your ego to discuss something you actually know something about


If no one else knew anything about it, why would we have so much religious discussion on this board?  You are mistaken.  Most everyone, including atheists, have an opinion on this subject.

EDIT:  Your signature quote is from a person who believed what I believe about the doctrines of grace.

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## moostraks

> ...just want to give a shout out to Moostraks....he or she always seems to testify positively (not to take away from other positive folks).


 Thank you...I really appreciate this as I have struggled to deal with the frustration I feel when others attempt to suffocate the Light within those who they disagree with on here.

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## VIDEODROME

> This isn't just a problem in the religion threads though; this kind of dialogue happens everywhere.

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## Terry1

What I always attempt to do is go after the doctrine and not the person.  It's difficult not to offend the person who believes it and attempt to pass it off as truth while accusing others of being "satanic", "unchristian".  Sometimes I think we get off track and away from what the message should always be and that is love.  

I know that there are many good charismatic Christians that exist amongst many different Christian denominations, but Calvinisim IMO, is a very dangerous belief to subscribe to because the belief itself contradicts what is biblically necessary to abide in Christ, which is the action of repentance in faith.  

While I know that most denominational doctrines of mankind all have their flaws, Calvinism is amongst the most dangerous of them all.  There are Christian doctrines that uphold traditionalism,  legalism, emotionalism, give false prosperity messages, worshiping other gods, dead works, but most of them do not omit the need for repentance in the life of a believer.  This alone is the one thing that separates the believer from the unbeliever.  

Some of us are more passionate about understanding how important it is to realize that if a believer does not believe in the act of repentance, while believing that is a dead work is not a message that came from our Lord, but the opposite.  If we do not live striving to better ourselves through faith and repentance, we can not be who we claim to be as Christians who are supposed to be living examples and witnesses of Christ.

There's not much one can do when Jesus told us that His word cuts like a two-edged sword and both ways.  Jesus offended many with His message of truth too.  He was crucified for it.

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## moostraks

> There is a _theological_ reason (and moral reason) that you feel less offended by people like Moostraks than people like me.


Nice S_F. I know you mean for this to be insulting but I am happy with it being perfectly clear we are polar opposites when it comes to our views. 

1 John 1: 9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 

Luke 11:36
Therefore, if your whole body is full of light, and no part of it dark, it will be just as full of light as when a lamp shines its light on you."

1 John 2: 7 Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. 8On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining. 9The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. 10The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

Matthew 22:36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law? 37 And He said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and [a]foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

1 John 2: 3By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4The one who says, I have come to know Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Galatians 5: 13For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. 15But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.


I do not believe we should insult and belittle people so they may know the Love of our Creator. I trust Him to guide others on the path they are called to take and I can only describe the path as I have been called to walk it.

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## Christian Liberty

> Ha ha!


I had to admit this was kind of funny as well, albeit wrong for the reasons SF points out.




> OMG, we see now who Sola Fide is, and he's a dirty ancap! I would have thought you older.


Sola, is that a picture of you?

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## otherone

> I do not believe we should insult and belittle people so they may know the Love of our Creator. I trust Him to guide others on the path they are called to take and I can only describe the path as I have been called to walk it.


Luke 6:43-45

43 For there is no good tree that bringeth forth corrupt fruit; nor again a corrupt tree that bringeth forth good fruit.

44 For each tree is known by its own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

45 The good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth that which is evil: for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

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## Sola_Fide

> Sola, is that a picture of you?



Seriously?

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## Terry1

> I wish i could get behind this post. I really do. Because, as a Mormon, I've had that experience over and over and *OVER* again. But it just seems like the internet is one giant circlejerk when it comes to religion. Either you're trying to shield your beliefs against someone else or you're stroking your own ego.
> 
> So I'm going to go at this from another way. Instead of stroking my own beliefs, I'm going to compliment another person's beliefs.
> 
> I generally love TER's posts. The Prophet Joseph Smith once said, " One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may."  I don't always agree in doctrine with some of TER's postings from Orthodox Saints. But I find their principles to be incredibly insightful and deeply Christian. I have found greater insights into some of my own thought processes by reading them. Applying their insights to my own beliefs has helped me approach them from another angle and gain deeper appreciation for the truth I have.


Understanding other doctrines can be a very daunting task in light of the fact that within each set of differing Christian denominational doctrines, there are variations and exceptions to them.  I truly believe that unless one is separated unto the Gospel of Jesus Christ spiritually they can never truly understand how God uses His children within all of these denominations and gives them different gifts of the spirit.  While they may reside in a church that teaches unsound doctrine, they may indeed be where God wants them to be at this point in their life and spiritual journey.  But this doesn't always mean that they will remain there because at some point, people who seek sincerely will grow beyond their current state of belief and faith to yet a greater one that gives more truth and spiritual revelation.  Then what happens as a result of being delivered to a greater understanding, they become witnesses to those who are at the point of where they once were and have grown beyond.

There is a reason for everything and a time for every purpose under heaven.  God moves his children around, He changes hearts and minds and then places them where He knows they can be of more use to fulfill His plan and purpose for them.

We shouldn't get so comfortable in our beliefs and churches that we become spiritually inflexible and unable to move on when God calls.  Sometimes, we aren't meant to remain in the same place for the rest of our lives if God chooses to use us elsewhere in other ministries and churches.

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## Christian Liberty

> Seriously?


I assumed not, but green seems to think it is

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## Christian Liberty

> If no one else knew anything about it, why would we have so much religious discussion on this board?  You are mistaken.  Most everyone, including atheists, have an opinion on this subject.
> 
> EDIT:  Your signature quote is from a person who believed what I believe about the doctrines of grace.


  Wait, was Sam Adams a semi-hyper Calvinist, or just a regular Calvinist?

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## Terry1

> Wait, was Sam Adams a semi-hyper Calvinist, or just a regular Calvinist?


He makes great beer, I know that.

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## Christian Liberty

> He makes great beer, I know that.


OK, so he obviously wasn't a Baptist

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## Sola_Fide

> Wait, was Sam Adams a semi-hyper Calvinist, or just a regular Calvinist?


Haha. ..hey now I'm not a hyper Calvinist.  Hyper Calvinists deny the prescriptive will of God in preaching the gospel.   I wholeheartedly disagree with that.

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## Terry1

> OK, so he obviously wasn't a Baptist


Any doctrine that tells me beer is evil, I know isn't of God. lol

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## Terry1

> OK, so he obviously wasn't a Baptist


Any doctrine that tells me beer is evil, I know isn't of God. lol

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## Christian Liberty

> Haha. ..hey now I'm not a hyper Calvinist.  Hyper Calvinists deny the prescriptive will of God in preaching the gospel.   I wholeheartedly disagree with that.


  I did say "semi"  I was kind of kidding and kind of not sure what to call your distinctive variety of "Calvinism."  I was trying to make a distinction between the more moderate standard monergist views and the views that you hold.  




> Any doctrine that tells me beer is evil, I know isn't of God. lol


lol!  BTW: I attend a Baptist church, but our church doesn't have any rules against drinking.  I don't do it anyway, though.  I don't like the taste of alcohol, and I'm underage.

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## Christian Liberty

Sola, if the picture you posted wasn't you, who was it?

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## Sola_Fide

> Sola, if the picture you posted wasn't you, who was it?


I don't know.   I just searched for "sola fide".

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## Christian Liberty

> OMG, we see now who Sola Fide is, and he's a dirty ancap! I would have thought you older.


I just checked the URL and the word "Anarchy" actually does appear in the URL.  I think this is our SF, even though he's denying it

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## Sola_Fide

> I just checked the URL and the word "Anarchy" actually does appear in the URL.  I think this is our SF, even though he's denying it


FF, that kid is not even 10 years old.  I'm in my 30's.  Please tell me your joking around right now...

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## Christian Liberty

> FF, that kid is not even 10 years old.  I'm in my 30's.  Please tell me your joking around right now...


Yes, of course.  Hence the

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## Sola_Fide

> Yes, of course.  Hence the


Oh okay.  I did post some pictures of me with Rand some time ago.

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## Christian Liberty

> Oh okay.  I did post some pictures of me with Rand some time ago.


Link?

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## mosquitobite

> I read that thread but I'd rather just talk about the gospel of grace vs. the false gospel of works.


What in that thread possibly leads you to believe you can't talk about how God has used the gospel of grace in YOUR life?

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## Sola_Fide

> What in that thread possibly leads you to believe you can't talk about how God has used the gospel of grace in YOUR life?


Because from what I read those don't seem to be Christian testimonies.

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## mosquitobite

> Because from what I read those don't seem to be Christian testimonies.


I still don't see yours in there.

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## mosquitobite

> Because from what I read those don't seem to be Christian testimonies.


You know, I really am starting to think you are so far blinded in your own righteousness that you can't even smell the stench of hell following you.

Adding you to my prayer list, if nothing else so that the Spirit can teach you how NOT to be a stumbling block, or at least teach you the gospel of PEACE.

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## Sola_Fide

> You know, I really am starting to think you are so far blinded in your own righteousness that you can't even smell the stench of hell following you.
> 
> Adding you to my prayer list, if nothing else so that the Spirit can teach you how NOT to be a stumbling block, or at least teach you the gospel of PEACE.


How can I be blinded by my own righteousness when I keep saying over and over again that I don't have any?  Why would you say that?  Don't you know that I think righteousness is Christ's only and comes only from Him?

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## Christian Liberty

@SF- They're confusing judgment of false gospels (Regardless of whether those judgments are correct or incorrect) with pride.  That's not necessarily accurate, although only you know how that applies to you.  I think I come across as more arrogant than I actually am sometimes myself.

At any rate: I don't really know when I got saved.  I don't really care.  I know that I'm saved now.

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## Sola_Fide

> Link?


Oh I have no idea.  That was years ago.

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## eduardo89

> OMG, we see now who Sola Fide is, and he's a dirty ancap!* I would have thought you older.*


I wouldn't have.

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## eduardo89

> Oh okay.  I did post some pictures of me with Rand some time ago.





> Link?


Someone's got a man crush...

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## VIDEODROME

> So what's the point of posting in these threads unless you are trying to convert or enlighten.


You might not reach people with a firm belief in a particular religion, but some people that are exploring other possibilities like Agnostics.  They find arguments like this forum or YouTube videos and are listening to each side make their case.  

There is a slim possibility people who seem to side with one belief will suddenly change.  They could do this for surprising reasons.  It might not be that the other side persuaded them, but from observing if their own side is obnoxious in an argument.  That might be something to consider with this thread topic.  We all might consider the risk of alienating people away from our side if we go beyond discussing beliefs to personal attacks.

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## Sola_Fide

> Someone's got a man crush...


Why don't you leave him alone and let's have a discussion about justification so everyone here can see the difference between Rome and the Bible?

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## RJB

> You might not reach people with a firm belief in a particular religion, but some people that are exploring other possibilities like Agnostics.  They find arguments like this forum or YouTube videos and are listening to each side make their case.  
> 
> There is a slim possibility people who seem to side with one belief will suddenly change.  They could do this for surprising reasons.  It might not be that the other side persuaded them, but from observing if their own side is obnoxious in an argument.  That might be something to consider with this thread topic.  We all might consider the risk of alienating people away from our side if we go beyond discussing beliefs to personal attacks.


  I hear where you are coming from.  I'm not just talking about Christians.  There are atheist who start threads with accusations like (paraphrase) "People make up Gods because they are scared of dying."  That isn't true.  It's not my reason for believing.  I didn't fear death.  My reason for seeking God after 15 years of being and agnostic/atheist was wanting to know the truth.  God answered my prayers.  

Asking questions is great, but I've seen too many false assumption of what others supposedly believe.

It's more of a challenge.  Can you Post what you believe without referencing others?  TER's threads as mentioned earlier seem to be one of the few.

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## Terry1

> Why don't you leave him alone and let's have a discussion about justification so everyone here can see the difference between Rome and the Bible?


You can't see the difference between the Gospel and Calvinism, what makes you believe that you can see any difference between "Rome and the Bible"?  Calvinism is an island unto itself with regard to any Christian denomination.  Even many reformed Baptists believe in the free will of man and that we have a choice.  Your belief is completely beyond the continuum of those who reside within the will of God.  God is your puppet master and nothing more.  You simply live for no other reason than to convince others that this complete heresy that you believe is true so you can then die believing it yourself.  I know without a doubt that you have a big surprise waiting on the other side, if and when you get there if you don't repent understanding that repentance is not a dead work, but the only path to salvation in Christ.

God can not use a believer who doesn't believe in obedience to the Holy Spirit through their "work of faith".  You're pretty much useless without bearing any fruit of the Spirit.  You become a dead branch on the Vine that's cut off and turned over to your own strong delusions at some point if you don't repent beforehand.  

You're so blinded by your own stubborn unwillingness to see where you err.  The brethren have attempted to bring you bring you back into the light of understanding and you're choosing to remain where you are.  The only hope you have now is that God Himself will intervene, but even God won't force you to believe something you've chosen not to.  You're on a very dangerous path that's leading down that very wide heavily traveled highway to a place where there is no return from.  

Believing that repentance is a dead work can only lead to one possible place.

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