# Lifestyles & Discussion > Personal Prosperity >  something I don't understand when buying silver....

## Lord Xar

When I have purchased Silver in the past, it would be some standard brand. Nothing fancy or unique date, ala:
http://www.apmex.com/Category/1202/1...er_Rounds.aspx

but then I see these, which are more expensive - isn't silver is silver is silver is silver? What does it matter the pattern or manufacterer?
http://www.apmex.com/Category/1596/E...er_Rounds.aspx
or

http://www.apmex.com/Category/2/Cana...12__Prior.aspx


What is the difference? When / If one was to cash in sometime in the distant future, why would one 1oz of one be more than another 1oz?

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## Drex

I want to buy silver but it seems all so confusing

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## tsai3904

Some brands carry a reputational premium.  Since they are more recognizable, they carry a premium because they will be easier to sell in the future.

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## Lord Xar

I see.

Do you have any thoughts, personally, on that? Will/does it matter? APMEX seems reputable, why would they not have a premium attached as a valid/trusted producer of silver...

Just trying to wrap my head around this. I see so many options.

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## Drex

What's the difference from buying coins than regular silver bars?

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## tsai3904

The CME has a list of approved brands that affect derivative contracts.  These brands are the most recognizable as the largest dealers/players buy and sell these brands.  
http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/meta...er-brands.html

The ones I see the most in the US are Johnson Matthey and Engelhard.  Anyone who deals with silver knows these brands.

Obviously for private investors who's not dealing in the millions, brands don't make that much of a difference.  If you know you're not going to be building a million dollar stash that you'll need to liquidate in a hurry, brands won't really matter too much to you.

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## tsai3904

> What's the difference from buying coins than regular silver bars?


Some coins are characterized by their brands AND year they were produced.

Most bars are just characterized by their brands.

Coins usually carry a higher premium than bars.

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## Cleaner44

Getting different forms of silver serves different purposes.  I would suggest 90% pre-1965 coins as a first need.  You can get pieces as small as dimes and the premium is usually low.  Just remember for comparison purposes $1.40 of face vaule, is about 1 troy oz.  Picking up 40 quarters and 40 dimes is a nice batch.  These coins could be used well in the event of a currency collapse.

There are 1.0127 troy ounces of silver in 14 silver Mercury dime(s).
http://www.coinflation.com/coins/silver_calc.php

Next getting 1 oz rounds or bar is good for bulk and then getting 10oz bar for bigger bulk.  These are a great store of value and a varity is good.  American Silver Eagles, JM bars and generics all have their place.  

Obviously all of this is moot though because the Fed has things well under control and inflation is nonexistent... in fact gold and silver are arcane just like those pesky delegate rules and we should all be getting on board the Bernanke train now!  Fiat rules the day!





just kidding

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## cubical

http://www.gainesvillecoins.com/cate...ver-coins.aspx

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## DEGuy

> When I have purchased Silver in the past, it would be some standard brand. Nothing fancy or unique date, ala:
> http://www.apmex.com/Category/1202/1...er_Rounds.aspx
> 
> but then I see these, which are more expensive - isn't silver is silver is silver is silver? What does it matter the pattern or manufacterer?
> http://www.apmex.com/Category/1596/E...er_Rounds.aspx
> or
> 
> http://www.apmex.com/Category/2/Cana...12__Prior.aspx
> 
> ...


One reason you see a slight premium for American Silver Eagles (Or Cadanian Leafs for that matter) is that they are already legal currency. Of course, there is that pesky difference between the face value ($1) and the intrinsic value (~$30) for the coins, BUT there is slightly more recognized. In the unlikely collapse of the paper dollar, silver and gold coins would retain their intrinsic value, and the american eagles would have a lot more standing than other coins due to the legal status. I'd actually pay a few more dollars premium on silver american eagles, but only because I plan to hold them until the fiat collapses or a law is passed to remove capital gains taxes on bartering of silver and gold currency.

If neither of those things happen, then it'll mean that the Keynesians are unstoppable. And we're all screwed if that happens.

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## Arklatex

I recommend the Canadian Wildlife series, only 1 million minted of each edition gives them a much bigger collectors value compared to 30-40 million of the regulars.

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## Kelly.

> Some brands carry a reputational premium.  Since they are more recognizable, *they carry a premium because they will be easier to sell in the future.*


i wonder if this will be the case once ASE and AGE fakes are found 

call me crazy, but i prefer a lower premium.

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## TomtheTinker

> I want to buy silver but it seems all so confusing


  it is slightly confusing until you get your toes wet. Go to a few local coin shops and see what they charge for junk silver(pre 65 halfs, quarters and dimes) check out the value on conflation.com..if your coin dealer prices are similar to what u see on conflation your getting a fair deal...start small

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## LibertyRevolution

Because prospectors are more rare than your average generic, they have not been minted since like the 80's.
It is a well know mint and a known bullion coin.

It feels really good in your hand, there is just something about the ridges on the edge that I like.
Prospectors are just so awesome though, you should really hold one. They are my favorite bullion round.
I'm torn when I have to choose between prospectors or maples, maples are my favorite of all silver...

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## Lord Xar

I see silver around $28.00 to $28.02

You think the Greece issue, that is now in the news, will affect the price one way or the other?

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## tsai3904

> I see silver around $28.00 to $28.02
> 
> You think the Greece issue, that is now in the news, will affect the price one way or the other?


Of course it will but no one will know to what extent.  A lot of people are speculating that this recent drop in silver has to do with JP Morgan losing a lot of money on their derivatives so they are being forced to liquidate a lot of their positions, which includes a lot of commodities.

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## Seraphim

It's very simple.;

Stick to Government mint bullion as well as bars that are made by world reknown smiths, such as Englehart and Johnson Mathey.

For silver bullion, expect to pay 2-4$ above spot, per ounce.

Bonus: 90%, pre 1964 US Coins...




> I want to buy silver but it seems all so confusing

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## Bossobass

> I want to buy silver but it seems all so confusing


Hi Drex,

Like all investments, they are made to be confusing so that you feel the need to consult the Magic Soothsayers. There are charts and candles and technicals and sentiments and Greek Tragedies and manipulations and heads and shoulders.

I like the K.I.S.S. method. If you want to track silver against the USD, simply look at the USD Index as the general indicator, +/- inflation:



Minted silver bullion coins are the safest bet to be .99 pure silver content and weight. Premiums are added on mostly by quantity purchased. Tulving has the best deals, but usually sells only monster boxes (500 coins in whatever mint's factory box). They are currently charging $1.99 over spot for Silver Canadian Maples, which includes insured overnight freight charges.

American Silver Eagles carry a higher premium and special edition minted bullion coins carry even higher premiums. APMEX, Bullion Direct, etc., etc., all offer lower quantity purchase points, but the premiums will be higher and you'll pay the freight.

Some say Eagles have a higher premium because they're "easier to sell", which I think is nonsense. Pay a lower premium going in, collect a lower premium getting out. Pay a higher premium going in, collect a higher premium getting out. It all comes out in the wash. 1 OZ of .999 Silver is 1 OZ of .999 silver.

Pre-'64 coinage, bars, jewelry, etc., are all viable options but, IMO, K.I.S.S. to start. Buy Minted Bullion and watch the USDX and play soothsayer regarding the movement of the USDX and inflation, based on real news.

You'll naturally branch into other ares of investing in hard assets, IMO, but this is a safe and sure way to enter.

IMO, silver is currently down because the Euro is down which elevated the USD in the index, which is all that is... an index of ratios of one currency vs the others that are in the basket of currencies. The rest of the hocus pocus is BS to me, except I definitely believe that the silver spot price has historically been manipulated to below market value since the Hunts attempt to corner in the late 70s (which see).

Just my opinion, FWIW, YMMV...

Bosso

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## Arklatex

Wow Silver is 26.90

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## rpwi

I think I found out why Silver is dropping:

http://www.thestreet.com/story/11511...ors-hands.html

Basically, recently the World Silver Survey 2012 was released and it said silver supply was outpacing fabrication demand (industrial demand).  Obviously a bad thing for silver...and it's really rattled the silver markets.

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## Steven Douglas

> I think I found out why Silver is dropping:
> 
> http://www.thestreet.com/story/11511...ors-hands.html
> 
> Basically, recently the World Silver Survey 2012 was released and it said silver supply was outpacing fabrication demand (industrial demand).  Obviously a bad thing for silver...and it's really rattled the silver markets.


But a good thing - music even, sweet sweet music - to my buy-only ears.  Pity only those who were looking at silver as an actual investment, just one more speculation vehicle for a short or near-term payout.  

World Silver Survey, COMEX, JPM et al, I kiss you, I hug you, I love you for buying me yet more time. Thank you!

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## Carson

> I think I found out why Silver is dropping:
> 
> http://www.thestreet.com/story/11511...ors-hands.html
> 
> Basically, recently the World Silver Survey 2012 was released and it said silver supply was outpacing fabrication demand (industrial demand).  Obviously a bad thing for silver...and it's really rattled the silver markets.


I was kind of thinking that people have been listening to the concept that inflation is sucking the life out of the economy and are allowing some deflation to get it moving again.

I started seeing all of the commodities start on a downward trend about a week back. At least that is what it looked like to me. It could be wishful thinking.

Anyway if they did listen, and it does turn things around, this trend could continue up until the election.

If you have never owned any silver I wouldn't let this down turn stop me from buying. Some would look at it as an opportunity to buy a little at a time all of the way down. It may not be as fun as playing the market as it takes off back up but you will still be in the game.

You really can't make any money at it anymore. For one thing most dealers that are commercial have to charge a premium when you buy. Then they charge you another when you sell. Then even though you may get twice as many dollars as what you paid, they will be worth half as much through inflation. Now that you a have doubled your number of dollars, the government, that has been fueling the inflation, thinks you own them capital gains taxes. Taxes on false profits.

Still it can be a way to sock some money away that sort of keeps up with inflation. Silver is a commodity. It and the other commodities have been running pretty stable with each other for a long time. Even when they took the dollar off of the gold standard the commodities have held their value with each other. 

Back in the sixties gas was about 17 to 20 cents a gallon. It still is if you use those same silver coins we used back then.



I just paid about 4.25 a gallon my last tank. If you look on this Silver and Gold are money it comes out 22 cents. Last week when I bought it, it was at 20 cents. 

http://www.silverandgoldaremoney.com/

Anyway it couldn't hurt to have a little socked away just for the educational value. *TomtheTinker* mentioned old silver coins. I think I would stick to coins I could still read the date.

P.S. I thought maybe I should add a disclaimer. I'm not saying people like you watching the markets can't get a break and beat the system. What I meant was that if you just have some setting around year after year it will remain what it is; silver.
The dollar will remain what it is. A tool of fraud and will be something that is changing in value.

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## Seraphim

This far from a complete explanation.

Have you not noticed that virtually every stock market is down A LOT in the last 10 days or so?

This is a FEAR trade environment and MANY asset classes are being liquidated. If this turns into a 2008 crash style event, expect silver to drop to about 20$ (16-22?)....but good luck getting physical silver at those prices.

The big boys are buying physical silver EN MASSE on these price drops.




> I think I found out why Silver is dropping:
> 
> http://www.thestreet.com/story/11511...ors-hands.html
> 
> Basically, recently the World Silver Survey 2012 was released and it said silver supply was outpacing fabrication demand (industrial demand).  Obviously a bad thing for silver...and it's really rattled the silver markets.

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## psi2941

U should only pay a extra premium for GOVERNMENT minted coins.  if its a private company when u go to sell it, it will be very hard to sell over spot.

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## Arklatex

I believe in taking the higher premium for the rare bullion (canadian wildlifes) because a 3% mark up at $28 is very acceptable when you get that markup back when selling at higher prices.  SPeaking from experience.  I paid just a little extra for the wolfs and it came back 5x when I'm still currently selling them at $60 on ebay as we speak.

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## Okie RP fan

Hope nobody minds the "bump." 

Basically, the coins, to the average person, will be more recognizable and taken immediately. As compared to bars, people will be skeptical at first. That is just one very basic reason as one of the main differences. 

Personally, if I were capable, I'd invest in multiple forms and as much as I could purchase. 

Is apmex pretty trustworthy?

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## oyarde

> I believe in taking the higher premium for the rare bullion (canadian wildlifes) because a 3% mark up at $28 is very acceptable when you get that markup back when selling at higher prices.  SPeaking from experience.  I paid just a little extra for the wolfs and it came back 5x when I'm still currently selling them at $60 on ebay as we speak.


 I think that 25 cent gold cougar is beatiful , but pricey , think I may buy just one for myself . last I checked $80 from the mint , but I am  unsure on shipping price ?

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## oyarde

> I was kind of thinking that people have been listening to the concept that inflation is sucking the life out of the economy and are allowing some deflation to get it moving again.
> 
> I started seeing all of the commodities start on a downward trend about a week back. At least that is what it looked like to me. It could be wishful thinking.
> 
> Anyway if they did listen, and it does turn things around, this trend could continue up until the election.
> 
> If you have never owned any silver I wouldn't let this down turn stop me from buying. Some would look at it as an opportunity to buy a little at a time all of the way down. It may not be as fun as playing the market as it takes off back up but you will still be in the game.
> 
> You really can't make any money at it anymore. For one thing most dealers that are commercial have to charge a premium when you buy. Then they charge you another when you sell. Then even though you may get twice as many dollars as what you paid, they will be worth half as much through inflation. Now that you a have doubled your number of dollars, the government, that has been fueling the inflation, thinks you own them capital gains taxes. Taxes on false profits.
> ...


 I love that sign  , makes me smile .

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## Okie RP fan

Can someone suggest some trustworthy silver suppliers? 

You can PM me if you don't want to disclose to anyone/everyone.

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## oyarde

> Can someone suggest some trustworthy silver suppliers? 
> 
> You can PM me if you don't want to disclose to anyone/everyone.


 Hardy's Coin Shop , ask for Oakel Hardy , owner ,  812 - 376  -3219 , open Wed. & Sat ,  I have bought thngs there , over the past 14 years or so , honest guy . Best place I have ever done business with .

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## freedomordeath

> I was kind of thinking that people have been listening to the concept that inflation is sucking the life out of the economy and are allowing some deflation to get it moving again.
> 
> I started seeing all of the commodities start on a downward trend about a week back. At least that is what it looked like to me. It could be wishful thinking.


yeah it took awhile for me to realize that gold is not an investment, its a store of value and because its constant makes excellent currency. When you listen to all the inflationists what they don't realize is that even Murray Rothbard talked about credit deflation due to credit contraction, because the credit acts like money and there is not much of this around then the currency itself appreciates in value. The FED comes along and prints to cancel this out, but this doesn't have a uniform effect intially and you have to guess where the new money is going first which makes things even harder to guage as stock prices can go up, but food prices stay constant, now you have to ask yourself is the stock really going up or is that where the new money goes first.

So to try find out REAL UP AND DOWNS by extracting the fluctuating currency values you have too look at the fundemental commodities like oil, copper, weat, cotton also gold and silver.



To be honest with you this is where I get left in the dust, because I realise that oil, cotton etc can fluctuate through lack of demand in a bad economy, but for me gold is a good anchor point to sort the weat from the chaf. 

Serioulsy the government poeple are so clever with their sneaky taxes that indirectly links the gold to the dollar, we should basically go black market with this stuff, it is afterall not illegal according to the constitution.

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## S.Shorland

Silver is in a downtrend at the moment.I like the idea of just buying a little when you can.

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## NoOneButPaul

So where's the best place to buy?

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## S.Shorland

Looks like Gold is trying an upside breakout today lol so Silver should follow.If it follows through on monday,I'd buy.

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## Okie RP fan

Following the jobs report, nearly everything is down except gold and silver, and both are way up at the moment. 

Anyway, I went ahead and tried out Northwest Territory Mint. They carry hefty premiums, though. 
Just for anybody who's interested in buying.

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## Seraphim

Yes, just like 08, this market crash will see gold/silver bottom MONTHS (about half a year) before the real crash in everything else bottoms. FOr the most part, the bottom is in. Gold/silver could go a bit lower, but I don't think so.

**Edit** Disclaimer: I hope silver drops to around 20$ before it starts it's next cyclical uptrend.




> Following the jobs report, nearly everything is down except gold and silver, and both are way up at the moment. 
> 
> Anyway, I went ahead and tried out Northwest Territory Mint. They carry hefty premiums, though. 
> Just for anybody who's interested in buying.

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## Dforkus

Good day to be a gold bug, so far.. With the volatility, who knows where it will end up..

All the other non PM commodities, like oil, gasoline, and natural gas are getting cock punched...

I still think Nat Gas might represent the best medium to long term speculative play at this moment. Germany and Japan are shutting off all their nuke plants, something has got to keep spinning those turbines and making those electrons. Natural Gas seems like the winner in that race as it's cheap, clean (at least compared to coal), and reliable...

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## oyarde

Nat gas is interesting....

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## oyarde

Someone is sending me to pick up $1100 in silver Wed morning .What is your guess to next Tue close ??

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## dcjones

Buy silver the cheapest you can find it.  Don't pay premium for maples or silver eagles.  Get the most recognized generic round...  the indian/buffalo.  

If you are buying less than 500 oz get from here and pay with check: (0.89c over spot best deal)

http://www.goldmart.com/bullion-1/si...-999-fine.html

If you are buying more than 500oz get it from tulving at .59c over spot:

http://www.tulving.com/bullion/1_oz_...lver_round.htm

http://www.tulving.com/goldbull.html

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## caradeporra

> When I have purchased Silver in the past, it would be some standard brand. Nothing fancy or unique date, ala:
> http://www.apmex.com/Category/1202/1...er_Rounds.aspx
> 
> but then I see these, which are more expensive - isn't silver is silver is silver is silver? What does it matter the pattern or manufacterer?
> http://www.apmex.com/Category/1596/E...er_Rounds.aspx
> or
> 
> http://www.apmex.com/Category/2/Cana...12__Prior.aspx
> 
> ...


The difference is in the Trust factor.  When you buy coins gov't stamped the buyer knows what they are getting.  Especially since the more metals are worth, the more people will try and find a way to scam...http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworst...with-tungsten/

Also, if you are worried the gov't will make it illegal to own gold/silver, you should buy older coins.  I am not going to do the research but anything over a certain age is considered collectible and the gov't allowed that when they made it illegal.  (Then Mexico, i believe it was Mexico, started making gold and silver coins and just stamping them with a date older than that so Americans could buy them - lol).  

Furthermore,  if you are buying in case of a societal collapse, having the coins that are reputable could make things much easier for you.  In this case, silver dimes are probably the way to go since they are of a value more easily traded (in other words, it will be hard to trade a gold coin for a loaf of bread, but a silver dime...)

Hope this helps.

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## oyarde

Well , I see none of my friends here called anything for me this past Wed ,  but I did make a purchase....

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## oyarde

Alright , help a Brother out , what will be silver price tomorrow at noon ???

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## oyarde

Thinking of another purchase ....

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## Professor8000

> I see.
> 
> Do you have any thoughts, personally, on that? Will/does it matter? APMEX seems reputable, why would they not have a premium attached as a valid/trusted producer of silver...
> 
> Just trying to wrap my head around this. I see so many options.


I buy all of my silver and copper from the AOCS(American Open Currency Standard) they have very good rates and are guaranteed .999 fine for copper and silver and .9999 fine for gold. They guarantee the weight of their bullion and if it turns out to not be the purity or weight indicated on the piece, they will replace it for free. They produce barter currencies and their currency is accepted by many merchants already. You can even make your own custom currency if you want. I have a bunch of different proof silver pieces for my retirement savings. I also have a larger variety of copper pieces which include Ron Paul Campaign for Liberty, Ludwig Von Mises Institute, Lawful Money, 2nd Amendment, Republic of Texas and so on. These guys are awesome.

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## liberdom

> I buy all of my silver and copper from the AOCS(American Open Currency Standard) they have very good rates and are guaranteed .999 fine for copper and silver and .9999 fine for gold. They guarantee the weight of their bullion and if it turns out to not be the purity or weight indicated on the piece, they will replace it for free. They produce barter currencies and their currency is accepted by many merchants already. You can even make your own custom currency if you want. I have a bunch of different proof silver pieces for my retirement savings. I also have a larger variety of copper pieces which include Ron Paul Campaign for Liberty, Ludwig Von Mises Institute, Lawful Money, 2nd Amendment, Republic of Texas and so on. These guys are awesome.


AOCS has good rates? Really?

Tell me, how much are silver rounds? Or copper rounds? No, I am not asking you how pretty their coins look, I give you that.

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## liberdom

> So where's the best place to buy?


Depends on your budget and preference of form (rounds, bars, government minted...etc)

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## Professor8000

> AOCS has good rates? Really?
> 
> Tell me, how much are silver rounds? Or copper rounds? No, I am not asking you how pretty their coins look, I give you that.


I can get silver for $30.77/oz and copper $34.00/20oz at the time I'm writing this post.
I got 40oz of copper for $40 yesterday and the guy who sold it to me bought me lunch, these guys are awesome.

Here's where you can see some of their stuff.

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## liberdom

> I can get silver for $30.77/oz and copper $34.00/20oz at the time I'm writing this post.
> I got 40oz of copper for $40 yesterday and the guy who sold it to me bought me lunch, these guys are awesome.
> 
> Here's where you can see some of their stuff.


Is $31 for silver shipping included? How many do you have to buy to get that price? 

Copper coins are more like a collectible, because copper in metal costs only $3 per lb, fun to have though

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## Professor8000

> Is $31 for silver shipping included? How many do you have to buy to get that price? 
> 
> Copper coins are more like a collectible, because copper in metal costs only $3 per lb, fun to have though


The shipping price for my silver depends on how often I want them to ship my orders. If I want them shipped every month it's $7.90/month. Every 3 months is $2.65/month. Every 6 months is $1.35/month. Every 12 months is $0.65/month. I do local pickup so I don't have to pay for shipping. I order a set amount every month as part of a silver savings club which gives me discounts on their products too.

If you are just buying one time, the shipping is $7.90. I would suggest getting a lot of silver if you were to go that route.

The thing about their copper is that it is part of their barter currency, you can barter for $2.00 worth of stuff with each copper ounce of theirs.

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## liberdom

> The shipping price for my silver depends on how often I want them to ship my orders. If I want them shipped every month it's $7.90/month. Every 3 months is $2.65/month. Every 6 months is $1.35/month. Every 12 months is $0.65/month. I do local pickup so I don't have to pay for shipping. I order a set amount every month as part of a silver savings club which gives me discounts on their products too.
> 
> If you are just buying one time, the shipping is $7.90. I would suggest getting a lot of silver if you were to go that route.
> 
> The thing about their copper is that it is part of their barter currency, you can barter for $2.00 worth of stuff with each copper ounce of theirs.


It's good that you do local pick up. 

How much do you buy a month? 20 ounces? 50 ounces? 100 ounces? 

What if I wanted it shipped right away, rather than monthly or every 3 months? 

You mean I can buy 30 copper rounds and give to them to get 2 silver rounds in exchange?

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## Professor8000

> It's good that you do local pick up. 
> 
> How much do you buy a month? 20 ounces? 50 ounces? 100 ounces? 
> 
> You mean I can buy 30 copper rounds and give to them to get 2 silver rounds in exchange?


I'm a poor man, so I can only afford to invest in my retirement so I only buy 2 silver proofs a month.

No, they don't do that. They provide the currency, it's the merchants and other people who will barter with it. Besides, the 1oz silver pieces have a face value of 50.

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## liberdom

> I'm a poor man, so I can only afford to invest in my retirement so I only buy 2 silver proofs a month.
> 
> No, they don't do that. They provide the currency, it's the merchants and other people who will barter with it. Besides, the 1oz silver pieces have a face value of 50.


There you have it. You might be better off saving your money until you can buy 10-20. You can negotiate better discounts too. I don't think you're driving to pick up 2 ounces each time, because that's a waste of time. Or, since you only have $65 a month, you're probably better off reselling copper rounds.

Face value is meaningless, it can say $100 for all I care. Nobody would accept it as face value if they can buy it for $33. Let me know when you find merchants that accept these barter currency, and specifically , what you bought with it (I know how Liberty Dollar worked, so I've heard it all).

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## Professor8000

> There you have it. You might be better off saving your money until you can buy 10-20. You can negotiate better discounts too. I don't think you're driving to pick up 2 ounces each time, because that's a waste of time. Or, since you only have $65 a month, you're probably better off reselling copper rounds.
> 
> Face value is meaningless, it can say $100 for all I care. Nobody would accept it as face value if they can buy it for $33. Let me know when you find merchants that accept these barter currency, and specifically , what you bought with it (I know how Liberty Dollar worked, so I've heard it all).


Actually, there's quite a few merchants here in DFW that accept AOCS currency at face value. The AOCS has been building a network of merchants since 2008. We bought 5 large pizzas from a local pizzeria with one AOCS 1oz piece. You can even barter for weapons at the gun shows here with AOCS friendly gun sellers. All at face value.

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## liberdom

> Actually, there's quite a few merchants here in DFW that accept AOCS currency at face value. The AOCS has been building a network of merchants since 2008. We bought 5 large pizzas from a local pizzeria with one AOCS 1oz piece. You can even barter for weapons at the gun shows here with AOCS friendly gun sellers. All at face value.


I'll ask you again. Why would they accept silver rounds at $50 face value when they can buy it at $33? 
Or are you only speaking of copper rounds?

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## Professor8000

> I'll ask you again. Why would they accept silver rounds at $50 face value when they can buy it at $33? 
> Or are you only speaking of copper rounds?


I'm talking about the entire barter currency. They accept silver rounds at $50 face value because they still realize a profit and they expand their customer base into an area few other merchants get into. The ones willing to barter with this currency before SHTF will be in a much better position later. It's not currently about getting the most silver for the least work for merchants right now, it's about building a consistent base with which to continue business when inflation catches up with the markets. Also, merchants have to establish fair value for their goods in relation to this barter currency so that they are not affected as much when inflation creates hyper volatility in the markets. Besides, the face values on the medallions are suggestions from the AOCS to make it easier to compare with FRNs and it is always up to the merchant and buyers to decide what makes a fair trade. I just happen to know a pizzeria that will trade 5 large pizzas for 1oz AOCS silver, which compared to their FRN pricing saves you 40% with the current spot price of silver.

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## liberdom

> I'm talking about the entire barter currency. They accept silver rounds at $50 face value because they still realize a profit and they expand their customer base into an area few other merchants get into.


I don't know many people who are willing to take a 35% loss just like that, but ok.





> The ones willing to barter with this currency before SHTF will be in a much better position later.


If you mean they'll be better because they have silver in hand, then they can do better by buying silver at cost.




> It's not currently about getting the most silver for the least work for merchants right now, it's about building a consistent base with which to continue business when inflation catches up with the markets.


If they share the concern about inflation, they should buy silver or whatever they believe will appreciate ASAP. why take silver at a loss profit?




> Also, merchants have to establish fair value for their goods in relation to this barter currency so that they are not affected as much when inflation creates hyper volatility in the markets.


isn't that why face value is pointless?




> Besides, the face values on the medallions are suggestions from the AOCS


that's what I said. Mere suggestions, people who accept it at face value are simply stupid.




> to make it easier to compare with FRNs and it is always up to the merchant and buyers to decide what makes a fair trade. I just happen to know a pizzeria that will trade 5 large pizzas for 1oz AOCS silver, which compared to their FRN pricing saves you 40% with the current spot price of silver.


Unless buying 5 large pizzas is regular practice for you, that's probably just his way of giving you a discount for buying 5 at a time. Ask him next time if you wanted just one pizza, would he give you 40 worthless FRN for change, or 40 copper rounds. Also, nobody buys silver at spot price, not unless you buy 500oz or more, that's my experience. Today typically buying rounds will cost you 10% premimum/spread. *This is not to mention, you didn't buy the 1oz AOCS at spot price, did you?*

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## Revolution9

> When I have purchased Silver in the past, it would be some standard brand. Nothing fancy or unique date, ala:
> http://www.apmex.com/Category/1202/1...er_Rounds.aspx
> 
> but then I see these, which are more expensive - isn't silver is silver is silver is silver? What does it matter the pattern or manufacterer?
> http://www.apmex.com/Category/1596/E...er_Rounds.aspx
> or
> 
> http://www.apmex.com/Category/2/Cana...12__Prior.aspx
> 
> ...


Numistmatics. The rarity of the specimen coupled to it's popularity. 

HTH
Rev9

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## oyarde

> Numistmatics. The rarity of the specimen coupled to it's popularity. 
> 
> HTH
> Rev9


 Ahh , numistics , I do love it , some of my best buys ever , a 1914 D cent , a 1909 S cent , handful of 1909 VDB cents , 1922 & 1924 cents , 1860's and 1970's cents ,war nickels , Carson City dollars ,  CC quarter , CC dimes etc etc

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## Revolution9

> Ahh , numistics , I do love it , some of my best buys ever , a 1914 D cent , a 1909 S cent , handful of 1909 VDB cents , 1922 & 1924 cents , 1860's and 1970's cents ,war nickels , Carson City dollars ,  CC quarter , CC dimes etc etc


When I was a kid of five and six I would steal a couple of quarters an go up and down th stores changing for rolls of pennies and pulling out the ones I didn't have or were in better grade condition, rerolling them and exchanging at the next store on the block.. I was a philatelist as well. A few months back I viewed a stamp collection worth over 50 million bucks with rows of rare US stamps. They fellow was quite surprised this long haired rock and roller could identify by name most of the rare stamps and give some history behind them.

Rev9

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## oyarde

> When I was a kid of five and six I would steal a couple of quarters an go up and down th stores changing for rolls of pennies and pulling out the ones I didn't have or were in better grade condition, rerolling them and exchanging at the next store on the block.. I was a philatelist as well. A few months back I viewed a stamp collection worth over 50 million bucks with rows of rare US stamps. They fellow was quite surprised this long haired rock and roller could identify by name most of the rare stamps and give some history behind them.
> 
> Rev9


 I gave my stamp collection to my daughter  , I hope she kept it and all the Large Cents I gave her as a youngster ...

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## Professor8000

> I don't know many people who are willing to take a 35% loss just like that, but ok.


It's about promoting the use of an alternate currency, in a SHTF situation the system would already be in place with enough people using it to become a self sustainable economy.




> If you mean they'll be better because they have silver in hand, then they can do better by buying silver at cost.


It's actually about creating a working system that doesn't need the value of the FRN to sustain it, and the ones who have been preparing the longest will have obvious advantages than those late in the game.




> If they share the concern about inflation, they should buy silver or whatever they believe will appreciate ASAP. why take silver at a loss profit?


It's the same reason someone will spend more money buying solar panels and wind turbines instead of just hooking up to the grid. It is an investment in a system that provides insulation from many factors that plague the existing system. It is not an investment in the metal itself, it's an investment in a system that that uses tangible goods as a medium for trade. It sometimes takes a loss of profit for the investment to be made, but the point is to have the system in place before serious inflation hits so that the merchants can just continue with their businesses while everyone else falls behind.




> isn't that why face value is pointless?


It's only as pointless as the face value of FRNs considering how it's real value is constantly changing.




> that's what I said. Mere suggestions, people who accept it at face value are simply stupid.


The face value is a reference and helps determine the fractional value of the different metals in the currency in relation to one another, as well as providing reference to FRNs.




> Unless buying 5 large pizzas is regular practice for you, that's probably just his way of giving you a discount for buying 5 at a time. Ask him next time if you wanted just one pizza, would he give you 40 worthless FRN for change, or 40 copper rounds. Also, nobody buys silver at spot price, not unless you buy 500oz or more, that's my experience. Today typically buying rounds will cost you 10% premimum/spread. This is not to mention, you didn't buy the 1oz AOCS at spot price, did you?


Since the 1oz copper rounds have a face value of 2, it would be 20 in change. When using a barter currency you can't make change with FRNs or you are subject to the capital gains tax. Do you even understand the concept of how a currency works? Because it seems like you are stuck on the idea that silver needs to be kept to exchange for FRNs at a later date so as to gain more FRNs than was spent buying the silver. Personally, I believe all of that paper will be worthless soon anyway, so a currency that doesn't need paper to exist is needed so we don't find ourselves up $#@! creek bobbing for stink logs.

Since the price of AOCS medallions are directly tied to their respective spot prices, I referenced the spot price instead of the current price of the medallions.

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## liberdom

> Numistmatics. The rarity of the specimen coupled to it's popularity. 
> 
> HTH
> Rev9


be careful though, often times numismatics is how dealers trick beginners into buying "rare" coins, when they can simply buy bullion. Even in bullion there are good reputable brands , but many will scare you into buying non-bullion, because that's where they can hype up the price or tell you bullion is confiscatable .

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## liberdom

repeat post deleted

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## liberdom

> It's about promoting the use of an alternate currency, in a SHTF situation the system would already be in place with enough people using it to become a self sustainable economy.
> 
> It's actually about creating a working system that doesn't need the value of the FRN to sustain it, and the ones who have been preparing the longest will have obvious advantages than those late in the game.


How does this dismiss anything I said? Which is, if they simply wanted to have simple as an alternative barter method, they can buy silver rounds at $30-33 each, and not accept them at face value. 




> It's the same reason someone will spend more money buying solar panels and wind turbines instead of just hooking up to the grid.


Which is financially stupid for most homes. I spoke to a solar panel salesman lately, he basically told me anybody who spends less than $100 a month on electricity, would not make any sense installing solar panels. I admire people who believe in something to the point they'd be willing to lose money




> It is an investment in a system that provides insulation from many factors that plague the existing system. It is not an investment in the metal itself, it's an investment in a system that that uses tangible goods as a medium for trade.


And I can add, you can barter any silver round at any value you like. Without the fact value suggestion.




> It sometimes takes a loss of profit for the investment to be made, but the point is to have the system in place before serious inflation hits so that the merchants can just continue with their businesses while everyone else falls behind.
> 
> It's only as pointless as the face value of FRNs considering how it's real value is constantly changing.


the difference is for every person that'll take AOCS at face value, there's a million that'll take FRN at face value. 




> The face value is a reference and helps determine the fractional value of the different metals in the currency in relation to one another, as well as providing reference to FRNs.
> 
> Since the 1oz copper rounds have a face value of 2, it would be 20 in change. When using a barter currency you can't make change with FRNs or you are subject to the capital gains tax.


Oh, I didn't know that. 




> Do you even understand the concept of how a currency works? Because it seems like you are stuck on the idea that silver needs to be kept to exchange for FRNs at a later date so as to gain more FRNs than was spent buying the silver.


No, I must not understand it. Yes, I am stuck on the idea of having silver exchanged back to FRN, otherwise face value is meaningless.




> Personally, I believe all of that paper will be worthless soon anyway, so a currency that doesn't need paper to exist is needed so we don't find ourselves up $#@! creek bobbing for stink logs.
> 
> Since the price of AOCS medallions are directly tied to their respective spot prices, I referenced the spot price instead of the current price of the medallions.


but current price of medallions is what you pay to get them to begin with. if you want to keep doing bad math, go ahead, you only have about $60 a month to mess with anyway.

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## osan

Silver is a base commodity.  The ONLY considerations as such are its weight and purity. Therefore, the only consideration in transacting that sort of business is price.  For the same weight and purity the only consideration should be the overall cost to acquire the commodity.  It is a simple as that.

Any company charging more on the basis of a "superior" product is bullshitting you - unless they mean to claim that other brokers are selling tainted metal.  That is certainly a possibility, but if the contention is going to be made then they will have to provide very convincing evidence to prove the assertion.  That, of course, is not likely to be forthcoming.  Therefore, you ignore such noise and go with the broker who will put metal in your hot little hands as reliably and inexpensively as possible.  

Period.

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## osan

> What's the difference from buying coins than regular silver bars?


Per se, none.  There is, however, one possible wrinkle where coin may be a better investment: confiscation.  There are several notable cases of governments unilaterally confiscating precious metals, usually with little or no compensation, by fiat.  The bastard Roosevelt did this and the only people who escaped were those holding "antique" coins and jewelry.

Therefore, if you are going to stockpile PMs, it would be wise to consider the distinct possibility that Obammy or the next low-rent tyrant will declare a national "emergency" and mandate all persons turn in their gold objects.  Given the capricious nature in all of this and the depths to which the tyrants have sunk these past few decades, it is possible that exceptions for jewelry and precious coins may not even be extended. Such is the cold viciousness of the current raft of vermin running the three-ring.  But if perchance they show that much magnanimity, bullion will be the most undesirable form of PM and one will then be faced with the decision to turn it in, keep it illegally (rendering you a "criminal"), or having it converted to legal forms (which I do for a fee, BTW... silver/goldsmith here).

The ultimate truth here is that nobody knows what these lunatics will foist upon us next.  If holding bullion becomes illegal, then the material becomes valueless in all markets save the black and transacting there is always risky business where prices are commensurate with the risk.  These bastards have us by the balls, make no mistake about that.  Personally, I will give up NOTHING.  Not a stitch to these thieves in costly suits.  Not a grain of metal (not that I really have much at this point), not a single firearm, dollar bill, nor a thread from my clothing.  As far as I am concerned, they may all go home and kill their families and then themselves and make the world a better place. For that I would thank them, but will give them nothing more.

Get your metals and worry not much about the form.  If $#@! comes to shove, you will be faced with making decisions in any event.  The best case is that PMs are not confiscated - possible, but as the economic situation deteriorates, it becomes less likely an outcome.  If they are and there are exceptions, get any bullion you hold into another form.  Get things made into makeshift jewelry.  It doesn't have to be pretty - it just has to be good enough to cut the mustard.  If there are no exceptions, you are $#@!ed.

Bullion tends to be less costly because there is no "value-added" in the coining process. I would go with that, personally, but there is one more possible concern: confidence.  There is a confidence factor that silver/gold in COIN form is less likely to be counterfeited.  Certainly it takes more work to counterfeit a coin than a bar of bullion.  But crookedness being what it is, I can readily see people out there coining tungsten blanks and putting a goodly plate over it and calling it good.  Short of cutting into every coin that comes across one's counter, one must simply trust that it is genuine, so once again I would not waste time on this.  If things go so badly that we are reduced to these means of transacting business, I suspect purity may become a distantly secondary concern, meals and shelter taking center stage.

Good luck to you and to everyone.  We may need it sooner than later.

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## Okie RP fan

Just from reading bits of an argument, I am willing to purchase silver at a "loss." As long as it stays within $20-$35, I will be buying because the way I look at it, long term, it will always increase in value, no matter what. Also, I am more concerned about setting myself up well enough if SHTF. 

So I buy silver when it's $30 and the next week it's down to $26. I really don't care, I'm not going to worry about being picky at this point in time. 

In regard to bars and coins, it's simple: as long as the coin is stamped pre 1964, you're good. As long as the bar is stamped .999, you're good (for the most part). Bars will be more accepted among people who know silver, as coins will be accepted by everyone, in a sense. 

Invest in BOTH. That is the best advice.

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## S.Shorland

Buy some today

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## oyarde

> Buy some today


 Yep

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## LibertyRevolution

> Silver is a base commodity.  The ONLY considerations as such are its weight and purity. Therefore, the only consideration in transacting that sort of business is price.  For the same weight and purity the only consideration should be the overall cost to acquire the commodity.  It is a simple as that.
> 
> Any company charging more on the basis of a "superior" product is bullshitting you - unless they mean to claim that other brokers are selling tainted metal.  That is certainly a possibility, but if the contention is going to be made then they will have to provide very convincing evidence to prove the assertion.  That, of course, is not likely to be forthcoming.  Therefore, you ignore such noise and go with the broker who will put metal in your hot little hands as reliably and inexpensively as possible.  
> 
> Period.


Well... you are forgetting about liquidity.
That "Merry Christmas 2003" bar from an unknown mint is not as easy to move as a maple or an eagle.
They are going to offer you less than spot talking about melt charges..

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