# Lifestyles & Discussion > Peace Through Religion >  10 Reasons Why Salvation By Works Does Not Work

## lilymc

Yes, I know that the salvation debates that went on for a few weeks have died down.... in fact, they appear to be completely over.  But those debates inspired me to make this video, and I just finished it last night, so....I'll share it, even though it's a bit late. 





If you guys are all debated out on this topic, I totally understand.  No worries!  (I'm a bit over it too.)    But I do hope you at least watch it. 

Thanks!!!

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## Original_Intent

Very nice, thanks for posting!

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## lilymc

> Very nice, thanks for posting!


Thanks for watching and the kind words!

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## Miss Annie

Great job Lily!  Beautifully done!

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## navy-vet

Thank you Lily that was exceptional.

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## Kevin007

the EO crowd ain't gonna like it

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## lilymc

> Great job Lily!  Beautifully done!


Thank you Annie!  




> Thank you Lily that was exceptional.


Thanks so much!  I appreciate the encouraging words. 




> the EO crowd ain't gonna like it


Well...that's to be expected.  But I hope they at least think about these things.  Religion should never be put above God/truth. If it does, then religion or a  brick and mortar church becomes one's God.

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## Kevin007

great vid but I wonder where the EO crowd went to?

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## Brett85

This is a tricky issue.   I haven't watched the video yet.  I'll try to watch it sometime tomorrow.  Good works aren't a prerequisite for salvation, but at the same time someone can't truly be saved if they don't have any good works to show for their claim of faith.  Faith comes first and then good works, but good works must follow faith in order for one's claim of faith to be authentic.

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## Kevin007

> *This is a tricky issue.*   I haven't watched the video yet.  I'll try to watch it sometime tomorrow.  Good works aren't a prerequisite for salvation, but at the same time someone can't truly be saved if they don't have any good works to show for their claim of faith.  Faith comes first and then good works, but good works must follow faith in order for one's claim of faith to be authentic.


not tricky at all.What is tricky about God's free gift of salvation? What is tricky about grace. Man makes it "tricky", because he wants to have a say in getting saved- it is all of God. Watch the vid.

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## Brett85

> not tricky at all.What is tricky about God's free gift of salvation? What is tricky about grace. Man makes it "tricky", because he wants to have a say in getting saved- it is all of God. Watch the vid.


It's tricky because there are verses that both sides use for their point of view.  It's like a puzzle that you have to piece together and make it all fit.  I've done that and have come to a place where I believe the pieces of the puzzle fit.  The Bible talks a lot about faith.  The Bible also talks a lot about works.  Our works are the evidence of our faith.  If we don't have any good works to show for our claim of faith, then our faith isn't authentic but is mere lip service to God.

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## Kevin007

> It's tricky because there are verses that both sides use for their point of view.  It's like a puzzle that you have to piece together and make it all fit.  I've done that and have come to a place where I believe the pieces of the puzzle fit.  The Bible talks a lot about faith.  The Bible also talks a lot about works.  Our works are the evidence of our faith.  If we don't have any good works to show for our claim of faith, then our faith isn't authentic but is mere lip service to God.



Works don't save you . Jesus does. Do you agree with this? All our righteousness is like filthy rags.

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## Brett85

> Works don't save you . Jesus does. Do you agree with this? All our righteousness is like filthy rags.


Jesus saves us, but someone who truly believes in Jesus will produce good works.  The Bible says that you will know them by their fruits.

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## Brett85

If someone comes over to your house and helps you put shingles on your roof, you aren't going to repay that person by going over and egging their house.  In the same way, someone who truly has gratitude for what Jesus did for them on the cross isn't going to spit in Jesus' face.  They are going to produce fruit-good works-because of the gratitude that they have towards Jesus because of what he did for them on the cross.

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## Kevin007

> *Jesus saves us*, but someone who truly believes in Jesus will produce good works.  The Bible says that you will know them by their fruits.


exactly. But there is no but.

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## Brett85

> exactly. But there is no but.


There is.  The Bible says over and over again that a true believer in Christ will produce fruit, will produce good works.

Matthew 7: 16-20

You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?  Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.   A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.  Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.  Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

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## Kevin007

> There is.  The Bible says over and over again that a true believer in Christ will produce fruit, will produce good works.
> 
> Matthew 7: 16-20
> 
> You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?  Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.   A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.  Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.  Therefore by their fruits you will know them.


the thief on the Cross- he just believed. Good works and salvation do not mix. One is grace, the other works (mans effort). If good works don't save you, they can't keep you saved after.

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## Kevin007

All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous  acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the  wind our sins sweep us away. (Is 64:6)

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## Brett85

> the thief on the Cross- he just believed. Good works and salvation do not mix. One is grace, the other works (mans effort). If good works don't save you, they can't keep you saved after.


I pretty clearly said that good works aren't a prerequisite for salvation, so the thief on the cross was saved without doing any good works.  My statement, and what the Bible teaches, is that good works come after salvation.  Good works and a changed life are evidence that someone is truly saved.

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## Kevin007

Unbeliever's do good works all the time.

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## Brett85

> Unbeliever's do good works all the time.


Yes, but they're motivated to do good works for different reasons than Christians are.  Christians should be motivated to do good works in order to serve Jesus Christ who died for us, and because the Bible commands us to do good works.

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## jmdrake

> the thief on the Cross- he just believed. Good works and salvation do not mix. One is grace, the other works (mans effort). If good works don't save you, they can't keep you saved after.


The thief on the cross did more than just believe.  He openly confessed his belief, confessed his sin and rebuked his fellow thief for insulting Jesus.  Notice that at one time both thieves were insulting Jesus.  Mark 15 states that both thieves insulted Jesus.  Luke 23 states that one thief insulted and the other rebuked the insulting thief.  The most obvious reconciliation of the two accounts is that one thief changed his mind.  Regardless, the penitent thief did do something as a result of his faith.  Now you can argue that his work was a result of his salvation as opposed to a prerequisite to it, but it's inaccurate to argue that all he did was believe.

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## moostraks

> The thief on the cross did more than just believe.  He openly confessed his belief, confessed his sin and rebuked his fellow thief for insulting Jesus.  Notice that at one time both thieves were insulting Jesus.  Mark 15 states that both thieves insulted Jesus.  Luke 23 states that one thief insulted and the other rebuked the insulting thief.  The most obvious reconciliation of the two accounts is that one thief changed his mind.  Regardless, the penitent thief did do something as a result of his faith.  Now you can argue that his work was a result of his salvation as opposed to a prerequisite to it, but it's inaccurate to argue that all he did was believe.


Indeed. Was going to point that out as well (re: thief) yesterday, then thought why bother since all that happens is another argument. This thread quickly descended into just another bigoted thread by which certain folks elevate themselves by mocking other's sincerely held beliefs.

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## Crashland

> Unbeliever's do good works all the time.





> Yes, but they're motivated to do good works for different reasons than Christians are.  Christians should be motivated to do good works in order to serve Jesus Christ who died for us, and because the Bible commands us to do good works.


But just earlier you said this:




> Good works and a changed life are evidence that someone is truly saved.


So then how is that evidence, if unbelievers do it too? People's _motivation_ is the only way to differentiate between the two? So in reality, you are saying that people's _motivations_ are evidence of being saved, not their works. Problem being it can be difficult to tell what someone's motivation is. And, this goes against all the Bible verses that *do* say that works are evidence of faith.

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## Kevin007

good works do not save. Do you understand? Jesus saves- only Jesus. Period.

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## RJB

> Well...that's to be expected.  But I hope they at least think about these things. * Religion should never be put above God/truth. If it does, then religion or a  brick and mortar church becomes one's God*.


If the video is: "10 reasons why lilymc falsely believes that Orthodox Christians place a church and their own works above God," I see no reason to watch it.

When you were a Catholic, (I believe you said you once were) if you really believed that that was the message, it's probably better that you left.  I can assure you when I was a Catholic and now an Orthodox, that I never believed in my works nor religion was above God.  We live a certain way because Jesus preached to love God with our whole heart mind and soul and to love our neighbor as ourselves.  And yes our MANY misdeeds are forgiven because of the salvation brought to us by Jesus.

And yes, I'm aware that false accusations get thrown in your direction as well.

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## Kevin007

> If the video is: "10 reasons why lilymc falsely believes that Orthodox Christians place a church and their own works above God," I see no reason to watch it.
> 
> When you were a Catholic, (I believe you said you once were) if you really believed that that was the message, it's probably better that you left.  I can assure you when I was a Catholic and now an Orthodox, that I never believed in my works nor religion was above God.  We live a certain way because Jesus preached to love God with our whole heart mind and soul and to love our neighbor as ourselves.  And yes our MANY misdeeds are forgiven because of the salvation brought to us by Jesus.
> 
> And yes, I'm aware that false accusations get thrown in your direction as well.


commenting on the video without watching it- nice. No- its a video showing that works do not save us- with bible proof.

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## RJB

> commenting on the video without watching it- nice. No- its a video showing that works do not save us- with bible proof.


I'm commenting on your typical comments in this thread where you mischaracterize my faith in God, as usual.  If the video is anything like the thread, I see no reason to spend 15 minutes listening to someone falsely telling me that I trust my works and church over God.

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## Kevin007

> I'm commenting on your typical comments in this thread where you mischaracterize my faith in God, as usual.  If the video is anything like the thread, I see no reason to spend 15 minutes listening to someone falsely telling me that I trust my works and church over God.


Its not about Church at all, she doesn't even mention it imo. So you agree then, that your works will save you?

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## RJB

> Its not about Church at all, she doesn't even mention it imo. So you agree then, that your works will save you?


Mostly I'm answering your questions why Orthodox and Catholics avoid your threads.  Your reading comprehension---  Ah, forget about it.  Why did I even bother    LOL

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## jmdrake

Right.  The only part of the post that's important is for you to say "This is incorrect".    The Bible is wisdom.  You can have the Bible without having God.  You can know what is right, have the wisdom to know that doing right is better than doing wrong, and still do wrong.  The Holy Spirit does more than just tell you right from wrong like some school teacher.  It puts the desire (will) to do right inside you.  Also, if all the Holy Spirit did was "give wisdom" than how were the apostles able to heal the sick or raise the dead?  Through "wisdom"?




> Oh--now I'm hiding from you--as if you were some kind of intellectual challenge or threat--*grin*  You'd best stick with Kevin under those circumstances if you're looking for an ego boost.  No--I wasn't "hiding" from you--more like I just skipped past focusing on what I thought more important. 
> 
> The Holy Spirit *IS* wisdom.  I don't know what else you could possibly believe He is.  He's the spirit of the Lord and Gods wisdom revealed in the very essence and being of Christ 
> 
> You might just want to believe Isaiah if not me.  
> 
> Isaiah 11:
> 
> 2*And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
> ...

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## moostraks

> I actually read the link you posted and knew you were quoting goc.  But you're understanding of what it's actually saying is where we are having our differences.  Are you sure you're not trying to support jmd to the point where you were hoping that I'd contradict my own belief?  I saw what was happening moos.  As much as I do respect your opinion, where we part company in understanding is if you think I'm saying anything other than we shouldn't rely on the physical feelings, but rather every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God in knowledge and wisdom.  That is a goc teaching.  If you can find a quote where I've indicated otherwise as such--please do.
> 
> 
> 
> Well--"intuitive" is a mental function of the brain and connected to our conscience, which is the only way the Holy Spirit can work through us.  So it stands to reason that the physical and the spiritual are connected through our physical bodies, but this is not an indication that the physical gut feeling has any redeeming power absent the wisdom and knowledge of God.


Glad you looked at the link as I include links for the purpose of not having to constantly write out long winded descriptions when there is a resource that one can read that I think has the points I am trying to get across.I found the GOC so you could see I was not speaking something different from your church. I don't have agenda to agree with jmdrake at all costs but I just so happen to have felt like according to my experiences you were misinterpreting what he was saying. 

You keep repeating an argument dismissing physical feelings and emotions henceforth why I quoted the definition of intuition. An intuition is:




> "a natural ability or power that makes it possible to know something without any proof or evidence : a feeling that guides a person to act a certain way without fully understanding why
> 
> : something that is known or understood without proof or evidence"


and your own church put forth the argument using the word intuitive, just as I would have chosen, over a rational:




> ": based on facts or reason and not on emotions or feelings
> 
> : having the ability to reason or think about things clearly"


perception. 

You can have the Bible and go to church and hear and know what is being said and try to apply it but until you go by Faith, which is when you surrender your own will and go by the intuitive perception, you are using your own wisdom. The Bible and the church can show you the path but you aren't on the path until you have surrendered and submitted to His Will. The Holy Spirit is the power and comfort and intuitive wisdom we have by which to surrender our will and submit, as slaves, to His Will. I hope you listened to the sermon I posted as well, because it went over the issue of slave to His Will. If you hold so dearly to the concept of free will that you do not trust Him, through the Holy Spirit, and submit then your own need for free will becomes the idol you esteem. You never lose the ability, imo, to stop being His slave and become a slave again to the flesh, but your actions are a slave to one or the other's agenda when all is said and done.

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## moostraks

> moos--you're losing me here.  I have no idea what you're attempting to say.  I mean that respectfully.
> 
> 
> 
> How is all of this related to what jmd said?  The intuitive process is part of our conscience, which is how the Holy Spirit leads and guides us in more simple terms.  
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and what is this *spiritual awareness* all the result of?  It's a result of our knowledge and wisdom in Christ.  Christ is revealed to us through the wisdom of God--that is where the power resides is in the wisdom of God.  Wisdom and knowledge must work together to effect power through Christ/faith in us.


The power is greater than that which you seem to be saying by dismissing others experiences as some faulty and untrustworthy physical manifestation because they are not of your church. My experience is the power is in the submitting to His Will and being "assimilated to the Light". As the GOC site put forth, 




> One of the most important aspects of Orthodox spirituality is participation in the divine energies. Briefly stated, this is an Orthodox doctrine of fundamental importance and very often ignored..."an immaterial feeling of the immaterial, an intuitive, not a rational perception - which transports man with irrestible force into another world,"...


http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith9284

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## Terry1

> The power is greater than that which you seem to be saying by dismissing others experiences as some faulty and untrustworthy physical manifestation because they are not of your church. My experience is the power is in the submitting to His Will and being "assimilated to the Light". As the GOC site put forth, 
> 
> http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith9284


It's clear to see that you're loyal in friendship to jmd, but this shouldn't cause you to claim that I "dismissed" "others experiences".  I have not said that in anything I've written.  What I said was that I realize we are able to feel and experience the Holy Spirit through healing and other--this shouldn't be the driving force that causes us to believe.  Although the Holy Spirit can heal and cause someone to feel His presence---these "feelings" are not what gives us the knowledge and wisdom of God through His word.

I myself have experienced and felt many things as a result of my belief, but--at the same time--many of them I didn't understand until after I'd sought out in Gods word what they meant and given the wisdom to understand what I was supposed to do with that experience and knowledge.  

*Remember Thomas: 

John 20:
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

The Purpose of John's Book

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.*

Hosea 4:

6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

We can look to this very thread for the evidence that supports the word of God.  People who claim to have studied the word of God, yet are unaware that key verses exist to annihilate their false beliefs.  And this is how the people perish because they have not sought out the word of God with the same emotional zealousness they perform in attempts to convince others that they have.

Some people like to play the game of being a Christian, while others actually live it in reality.

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## Terry1

> Glad you looked at the link as I include links for the purpose of not having to constantly write out long winded descriptions when there is a resource that one can read that I think has the points I am trying to get across.I found the GOC so you could see I was not speaking something different from your church. I don't have agenda to agree with jmdrake at all costs but I just so happen to have felt like according to my experiences you were misinterpreting what he was saying. 
> 
> You keep repeating an argument dismissing physical feelings and emotions henceforth why I quoted the definition of intuition. An intuition is:
> 
> 
> and your own church put forth the argument using the word intuitive, just as I would have chosen, over a rational:
> 
> 
> perception. 
> ...


Again--I have not "dismissed" jmd's or anyone's experiences.  Read post #307 of this thread where I said this:




> Terry1 wrote:
> "All"?? So you don't believe that there's power in the wisdom and knowledge of God? I believe that the Lord can heal and strengthen people--physically as well, but that's not the driving spiritual force that enables us to grow in faith understanding the reasons why we should live within the will of God and how to overcome the trials and temptations of this world.

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## Terry1

> Right.  The only part of the post that's important is for you to say "This is incorrect".    The Bible is wisdom.  You can have the Bible without having God.  You can know what is right, have the wisdom to know that doing right is better than doing wrong, and still do wrong.  The Holy Spirit does more than just tell you right from wrong like some school teacher.  It puts the desire (will) to do right inside you.  Also, if all the Holy Spirit did was "give wisdom" than how were the apostles able to heal the sick or raise the dead?  Through "wisdom"?



And what I've been attempting to drive home to you is that the Holy Spirit is the wisdom of God and the knowledge and the same spirit of the Lord that empowers us through that same wisdom and knowledge.  

The devil can mock and perform tricks to convince people that these are miracles of God to deceive them also.  satan can also appear as an angel of light to some to deceive them as well.  Without the wisdom and knowledge of God to rightly discern the spirits through His Holy Spirit--people can be and are deceived by many "feelings" and "experiences" or things that they can see with their carnal eyes.  

God said--my people perish for lack of knowledge and the wisdom to know the difference.

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## moostraks

> It's clear to see that you're loyal in friendship to jmd, but this shouldn't cause you to claim that I "dismissed" "others experiences".  I have not said that in anything I've written.  What I said was that I realize we are able to feel and experience the Holy Spirit through healing and other--this shouldn't be the driving force that causes us to believe.  Although the Holy Spirit can heal and cause someone to feel His presence---these "feelings" are not what gives us the knowledge and wisdom of God through His word.
> 
> I myself have experienced and felt many things as a result of my belief, but--at the same time--many of them I didn't understand until after I'd sought out in Gods word what they meant and given the wisdom to understand what I was supposed to do with that experience and knowledge.  
> 
> *Remember Thomas: 
> 
> John 20:
> 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
> 
> ...


The discussion I put forth has nothing to do with loyalty to someone. You seem to be elevating your knowledge as a superior relationship to what others have experienced because their experience could be satanic deceptions, and it was this argument by which I believe you are belittling his position when imo his as well as mine fall in line with the Orthodox position of participating in divine energies. Galatians 5 will let a person know rather quickly whether they are experiencing the fruit of the Spirit or are being deluded. Again,  I don't see either the flesh or the emotions as being any more damaged than the manner in which reason is corrupted in this earthly experience.

I don't think anyone is playing at being Christian in the discussion. Just because a person disagrees with your position does not make their relationship and experience in the faith less valid than your own.

Found some sayings by ascetics of the Orthodox church that might help you see more what point I was trying to speak to:
The Lord has given the Holy Spirit upon the earth, and in whomsoever He dwells, that one feels paradise within himself. You might say: why hasn't this happened to me? Because you have not given yourself over to the will of God, but you live according to yourself. Look at the one who loves his own will. He never has peace in himself and is always displeased with something. But whoever has given himself over to God's will perfectly has pure prayer. His soul loves the Lord, and everything is acceptable and good to him. 
(St. Silouan the Athonite, Writings, VI.14)

How can you find out if you are living within the will of God? Here is the sign: If you are troubled about any thing, this means that you have not completely given yourself over to the will of God. A person who lives in the will of God is not concerned over anything. And if he needs anything, he gives both it and himself over to God. And if he does not receive the necessary thing, he remains calm nevertheless, as if he had it. The soul which has been given over to the will of God is afraid of nothing, not of thunder nor of thieves - nothing. But whatever happens, she says, "Thus it pleases God." If she is sick, she thinks: this means that I need to be sick, or else God would not have given it to me. Thus peace is preserved in both soul and body. 
(St. Silouan the Athonite, Writings, VI.4)

Here is the luminous teaching of our Savior: Thy will be done. (Matt. 6:10). Whoever sincerely pronounces this prayer leaves his own will and puts all things in the will of God. But the will inspired by the demons consists is self-justification and trust in ourselves, and then they easily subject a man who receives this sort of thought. 
(St. Barsanuphius the Great, Instructions, 40, 124)

When the soul knows the love of God by the Holy Spirit, then he clearly feels that the Lord is our own Father, the closest, dearest Father, the best. And there is not greater happiness that to love God with all the mind and heart, and our neighbor as ourself. And when this love is in the soul, then all things bring joy to the soul. 
(St. Silouan the Athonite, Writings, IX.15)

The soul that has come to know God fully no longer desires anything else, nor does it attach itself to anything on the earth; and if you put before it a kingdom, it would not desire it, for the love of God gives such sweetness and joy to the soul that even the life of a king can no longer give it any sweetness. 
(St. Silouan the Athonite, Writings, IX.13)

As it is impossible to verbally describe the sweetness of honey to one who has never tasted honey, so the goodness of God cannot be clearly communicated by way of teaching if we ourselves are not able to penetrate into the goodness of the Lord by our own experience. 
(St. Basil the Great, Conversations on the Psalms, 29)

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## jmdrake

> And what I've been attempting to drive home to you is that the Holy Spirit is the wisdom of God and the knowledge and the same spirit of the Lord that empowers us through that same wisdom and knowledge.


That's nice.  What you are missing is:

1) Someone can have knowledge and wisdom of God without having God.  (i.e. The Bible).

2) Granting knowledge and wisdom is not the limit of the Holy Spirit's power.

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## Kevin007

> Incorrect.  First you and Lily both denied that there was a "law of faith" until I revealed it to you both.  You are in direct contradiction to the entire New Testament that tells you without apology that faith without our good works done in faith is dead faith.  You have nothing to support your argument here either because there is nothing that supports it in the word of God.  You are totally lost in scripture and in interpretation of it.
> 
> Tell me then what is the Apostle Paul saying here:
> 
> Romans 2:13-15
> 
> 13 (For it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified
> 
> 14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, they, not having the law, are a law unto themselves,
> ...


THIS passage is not possible because all men are sinners. It is an ideal condition rather than something we could attain. The NT teaches it is impossible to be justified by law keeping/ the law (Acts 13:39, Rom 3:20, Gal 2:16, etc). It was never God's intention that any man be saved by the law.

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## Kevin007

> Kevin, this "gotquestions.org" site is not a place you want to hang and I see that you hang there quite a bit.  From another non-Catholic source, gives a pretty accurate account of this site you continually use for answers.  They're primarily an OSAS site, but not all OSAS believers contribute to that site.  So you could be quoting a Jehovah's witness, or someone other group, depending on which one of gotquestions staff members have approved those answers your using--which are usually all false.
> 
> http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/got-questions.htm


wow a hater because he doesn't believe in OSAS. Color me surprised.

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## Terry1

> *THIS passage is not possible because all men are sinners.* It is an ideal condition rather than something we could attain. The NT teaches it is impossible to be justified by law keeping/ the law (Acts 13:39, Rom 3:20, Gal 2:16, etc). It was never God's intention that any man be saved by the law.


That passage *is* possible and is true.  I'm breaking my silence here because this is one of those *key verses you need to understand that annihilate your OSAS doctrine.

Which *law* is Paul referring to here Kevin?  You need to study this and understand the difference between the *dead law of works* and the *law of faith*.  Otherwise, like Lily in this thread, you will both continue on this path of believing a lie and false doctrine.

Paul is referring to the law of faith in this passage--not the law of dead works.  You need to pray and study the word of God and read the OT to find out why Paul distinguishes between these two very polar opposite laws and why it's a curse to do one and not the other.

You stating that "this passage is not possible" is calling the Apostle Paul wrong and a liar, which he's not.  He's trying to tell you the very same thing I have been trying to drive home to you for a very long time--repeatedly.  

Paul refers to the "doers of the law are justified". Paul is referring to the "law of faith" in this passage.  The very same thing that James is telling you that faith without our works is dead.  Dead faith can not justify you or anyone.  Hence Paul is saying the same thing as James--that only the "doers of the law of faith shall be justified.  This is why you and Lily both have been fighting tooth and claw to support your OSAS doctrine that is false, because neither of you are understanding the difference between these two covenants and laws.

If you ever do come into the light of this understanding--your entire world will change and your faith will grow.  You will start to become what you were called to be as a reliable witness for Christ.  You will put away with childish things and become a meat eater of the word.  It's your choice and depends on your willingness to open up and see this truth to something that has kept you blinded for so long.

*Romans 2:13-15

 13 (For it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified

 14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, they, not having the law, are a law unto themselves,

 15 which shows the work of the law written in their hearts,their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts between accusing and excusing one another.*

----------


## Terry1

> The discussion I put forth has nothing to do with loyalty to someone. You seem to be elevating your knowledge as a superior relationship to what others have experienced because their experience could be satanic deceptions, and it was this argument by which I believe you are belittling his position when imo his as well as mine fall in line with the Orthodox position of participating in divine energies. Galatians 5 will let a person know rather quickly whether they are experiencing the fruit of the Spirit or are being deluded. Again,  I don't see either the flesh or the emotions as being any more damaged than the manner in which reason is corrupted in this earthly experience.
> 
> I don't think anyone is playing at being Christian in the discussion. Just because a person disagrees with your position does not make their relationship and experience in the faith less valid than your own.
> 
> Found some sayings by ascetics of the Orthodox church that might help you see more what point I was trying to speak to:
> The Lord has given the Holy Spirit upon the earth, and in whomsoever He dwells, that one feels paradise within himself. You might say: why hasn't this happened to me? Because you have not given yourself over to the will of God, but you live according to yourself. Look at the one who loves his own will. He never has peace in himself and is always displeased with something. But whoever has given himself over to God's will perfectly has pure prayer. His soul loves the Lord, and everything is acceptable and good to him. 
> (St. Silouan the Athonite, Writings, VI.14)
> 
> How can you find out if you are living within the will of God? Here is the sign: If you are troubled about any thing, this means that you have not completely given yourself over to the will of God. A person who lives in the will of God is not concerned over anything. And if he needs anything, he gives both it and himself over to God. And if he does not receive the necessary thing, he remains calm nevertheless, as if he had it. The soul which has been given over to the will of God is afraid of nothing, not of thunder nor of thieves - nothing. But whatever happens, she says, "Thus it pleases God." If she is sick, she thinks: this means that I need to be sick, or else God would not have given it to me. Thus peace is preserved in both soul and body. 
> ...


With regard to your many accusations against me:  I have not dismissed jmd's personal experiences.  I do not feel I'm superior to anyone.  I do not and have not stated that anyone's personal experience is any "less valid" than mine.  What I have stated is that the doctrines some of them are subscribing to are false--and they are, along with my explanation and scripture to back that up.  So if that seems to you to be something less valid--it should.  Because there are beliefs that are less valid than others--this is a fact.

Pandering to false beliefs because someone is your friend is not witnessing the love of Christ.  So if you want to quote Orthodox teaching to me, you should also believe it yourself and witness that to jmd who you're supporting in his belief of sola scripture, which is what the debate here is all about.

Thanks

----------


## Terry1

> That's nice.  What you are missing is:
> 
> 1) Someone can have knowledge and wisdom of God without having God.  (i.e. The Bible)..


On the contrary.  I don't believe I'm the one missing anything here, but it's you who are missing the point.

The bible is nothing more than a book until it's truth is given in wisdom via the Holy Spirit.  That is where wisdom comes from--the Holy Spirit.  I know you believe in sola scripture and this is why this belief is unbiblical--because personal interpretation is just that and only given on a personal basis via the Holy Spirit.  There are many bibles with many differing interpretations of Gods word--some are far from being correct.  Only the divine intercession of the HOly Spirit can reveal the truth in the revelations of God in the scripture and this is what the "mystery" of Gods word is all about.  The book of the bible is not inerrant.  If it were--there would not be Christians believing false doctrines.




> 2) Granting knowledge and wisdom is not the limit of the Holy Spirit's power.


The Holy Spirit is the spiritual embodiment of knowledge and wisdom and this is where everything you know, experience, feel and obtain the gifts come from.  Because the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ and God.  Jesus is the wisdom of God revealed in His being--same as the Holy Spirit.

The doctrine of sola scripture is false.

----------


## moostraks

> With regard to your many accusations against me:  I have not dismissed jmd's personal experiences.  I do not feel I'm superior to anyone.  I do not and have not stated that anyone's personal experience is any "less valid" than mine.  What I have stated is that the doctrines some of them are subscribing to are false--and they are, along with my explanation and scripture to back that up.  So if that seems to you to be something less valid--it should.  Because there are beliefs that are less valid than others--this is a fact.
> 
> Pandering to false beliefs because someone is your friend is not witnessing the love of Christ.  So if you want to quote Orthodox teaching to me, you should also believe it yourself and witness that to jmd who you're supporting in his belief of sola scripture, which is what the debate here is all about.
> 
> Thanks


Many accusations? No, it was just one observation which was broken into parts and tempered by the words it seems, to inform you of the impression you are leaving the reader. I have failed to see how you have done more than dismissed my personal experience as not being such, but my attempt to wage an argument based upon loyalty to jmdrake. I have seen no manner by which you have refuted the quotes or sermon I gave you which uphold the point I was trying to give make from my p.o.v. and come from Orthodox sources, including dictionary definitions, so you can see the meanings by which the interpretation was in line with proper use of the terms chosen by the church with which you chose to conform.

 You have been on not just thread but the eucharist thread saying how some people play at being Christians and your need to sacrifice due to your spiritual discernment. The arrogance by which you postulate your position is palpable. 

I quote many sources, and when I understand the basis by which another person chooses to conform their beliefs I will speak from their frame of reference if it is suitable to the point. There are a number of issues I have with the Orthodox church or I'd be there by now and transubstantiation is one of them but I had chosen not to enter that hornets nest because you surely would have felt I was teaming up with jmdrake because of my agreement on that point as well, still doesn't make me an sda now does it?

Someone wants to be sola scriptura then that is their choice and between them and the Creator. I can try to give my experience on why I am comfortable with other resources but it is their walk to take. I use native resources, Quaker resources, Anabaptist resources, and I came to a fuller understanding of my faith through Pagan resources. People who want to wage a campaign for their particular banner will be better off trying to convert someone other than me and I am not here to assist in converting anyone to any particular creed other than to show my experiences and understanding of the Creator and exposure to certain systems that have valuable insights and my sometimes negative experiences.

~~~peace on your path

----------


## Terry1

> Many accusations? No, it was just one observation which was broken into parts and tempered by the words it seems, to inform you of the impression you are leaving the reader. I have failed to see how you have done more than dismissed my personal experience as not being such, but my attempt to wage an argument based upon loyalty to jmdrake. I have seen no manner by which you have refuted the quotes or sermon I gave you which uphold the point I was trying to give make from my p.o.v. and come from Orthodox sources, including dictionary definitions, so you can see the meanings by which the interpretation was in line with proper use of the terms chosen by the church with which you chose to conform.
> 
>  You have been on not just thread but the eucharist thread saying how some people play at being Christians and your need to sacrifice due to your spiritual discernment. The arrogance by which you postulate your position is palpable. 
> 
> I quote many sources, and when I understand the basis by which another person chooses to conform their beliefs I will speak from their frame of reference if it is suitable to the point. There are a number of issues I have with the Orthodox church or I'd be there by now and transubstantiation is one of them but I had chosen not to enter that hornets nest because you surely would have felt I was teaming up with jmdrake because of my agreement on that point as well, still doesn't make me an sda now does it?
> 
> Someone wants to be sola scriptura then that is their choice and between them and the Creator. I can try to give my experience on why I am comfortable with other resources but it is their walk to take. I use native resources, Quaker resources, Anabaptist resources, and I came to a fuller understanding of my faith through Pagan resources. People who want to wage a campaign for their particular banner will be better off trying to convert someone other than me and I am not here to assist in converting anyone to any particular creed other than to show my experiences and understanding of the Creator and exposure to certain systems that have valuable insights and my sometimes negative experiences.
> 
> ~~~peace on your path


In a nutshell moos--While jmd was basing his argument upon sola scripture, you were continually nit-picking my character apart in defense of jmd with trivialities that had nothing to do with the doctrines and beliefs being discussed.  You were in essence--using Orthodox teaching and quotes to attack my character instead of the message that I was attempting to give to jmd in opposition to his belief in sola scripture.

Instead of using those Orthodox quotes to refute the false doctrine of sola scripture that jmd was posting--you were literally attempting to assassinate my character with my own belief in defense of your friend.  

Yes--peace on your path as well dear sister.

----------


## jmdrake

> On the contrary.  I don't believe I'm the one missing anything here, but it's you who are missing the point.
> 
> The bible is nothing more than a book until it's truth is given in wisdom via the Holy Spirit.  That is where wisdom comes from--the Holy Spirit.


Wrong.
_Jeremiah 9:23 Thus saith the Lord, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:_

_Deuteronomy 4:6King James Version (KJV)

6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people._

Someone can read the Bible, do things found in the Bible at least some of the time, and not have God.  An atheist can read "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", think "Yeah, that's a good idea", do it and not have God.  There are atheists who pay tithe because they believe in the wise principle that if you are generous with your wealth it will come back to you.  They still don't have God.




> I know you believe in sola scripture and this is why this belief is unbiblical--because personal interpretation is just that and only given on a personal basis via the Holy Spirit.


LOL.  It's funny that you try to refute sola scriptura by proving it.  Yes the Holy Spirit guides into a full understanding of the Bible.  That's why you don't need to wade through countless other books, as good as those books may be, to understand God's truth.  And in the end even the "church tradition" that you love so much is open to interpretation.  What did St. Clement mean when he called the bread and wine an metaphor?  Well I've heard everything from HB's "he didn't really say that" (HB's on link showed that he did) to your "Well the church fathers were not 100% right" to TER's "Well it's both metaphor and literal" without showing where St. Clement said it was literal.  You seemed to have dropped your own interpretation for TER's, but that doesn't change my point.  

Anyway, since you are so into church tradition do you care to quote a church father to back up your contention that the Bible is a book only of "knowledge" and not "wisdom"?  Because I think you just made that up out of thin air.  Catholics call the books of Job - Sirach the "Wisdom books".  See: http://www.newadvent.org/bible/gen001.htm  In fact there is a book that's called "Wisdom" in the Catholic cannon.  




> There are many bibles with many differing interpretations of Gods word--some are far from being correct.  Only the divine intercession of the HOly Spirit can reveal the truth in the revelations of God in the scripture and this is what the "mystery" of Gods word is all about.  The book of the bible is not inerrant.  If it were--there would not be Christians believing false doctrines.


Your belief that the Bible contains knowledge but not wisdom is itself a false doctrine that I don't believe is supported by your church.  It's definitely not supported by the Bible.




> The Holy Spirit is the spiritual embodiment of knowledge and wisdom and this is where everything you know, experience, feel and obtain the gifts come from.  Because the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ and God.  Jesus is the wisdom of God revealed in His being--same as the Holy Spirit.


God is more than wisdom and knowledge.  It's sad that this is all you know of God.

----------


## jmdrake

> In a nutshell moos--While jmd was basing his argument upon sola scripture, you were continually nit-picking my character apart in defense of jmd with trivialities that had nothing to do with the doctrines and beliefs being discussed.  You were in essence--using Orthodox teaching and quotes to attack my character instead of the message that I was attempting to give to jmd in opposition to his belief in sola scripture.
> 
> Instead of using those Orthodox quotes to refute the false doctrine of sola scripture that jmd was posting--you were literally attempting to assassinate my character with my own belief in defense of your friend.  
> 
> Yes--peace on your path as well dear sister.


Terry, you have given no support at all for your belief regarding the Holy Spirit being only wisdom and knowledge and the Bible being only knowledge.  You have not made that case from the Bible *or* from the church fathers.

----------


## moostraks

> In a nutshell moos--While jmd was basing his argument upon sola scripture, you were continually nit-picking my character apart in defense of jmd with trivialities that had nothing to do with the doctrines and beliefs being discussed.  You were in essence--using Orthodox teaching and quotes to attack my character instead of the message that I was attempting to give to jmd in opposition to his belief in sola scripture.
> 
> Instead of using those Orthodox quotes to refute the false doctrine of sola scripture that jmd was posting--you were literally attempting to assassinate my character with my own belief in defense of your friend.  
> 
> Yes--peace on your path as well dear sister.


Persecution complex much? Sounds like the same exact thing you were accusing jmdrake of this morning with kevin, lily, and others. If I critiqued anything it was because I have a personal held belief and not based upon a friendly loyalty, as much as I care for jmdrake, can you make some effort to understand that people here are standing up for their own beliefs? This argument you think you are catching people with is erroneous and I want you to stop making it with regards to my position. It is no different than when S_F would tell lies about my motivation.

Try listening to what I say about sola scriptura one more time here, I *do not* have a problem with it per say, as it is between them and the Creator why and by what they are limiting their choices. Each church limits what it claims as authoritative verses. This is your battle to wage, not mine, because it is irrelevant to me. If I am attempting to find a common ground with someone then I will discuss from what they use. If I am explaining my beliefs then I will explain what I use and if they do not accept my sources then it is their problem not mine to force them to accept my sources. It is what it is...

----------


## Terry1

> Wrong.
> _Jeremiah 9:23 Thus saith the Lord, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:_
> 
> _Deuteronomy 4:6King James Version (KJV)
> 
> 6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people._
> 
> Someone can read the Bible, do things found in the Bible at least some of the time, and not have God.  An atheist can read "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", think "Yeah, that's a good idea", do it and not have God.  There are atheists who pay tithe because they believe in the wise principle that if you are generous with your wealth it will come back to you.  They still don't have God.
> 
> ...



It's impossible for God to be more than He is.  God is the embodiment of wisdom and knowledge from which everything else flows from.  God said--"I Am That I Am."  

That is a twisted corrupt belief you have and sola scripture is not possible and false.  You clearly have misinterpreted what I've said if you believe that I've "proven it" with anything I've attempted to reveal to you.

----------


## moostraks

> Terry, you have given no support at all for your belief regarding the Holy Spirit being only wisdom and knowledge and the Bible being only knowledge.  You have not made that case from the Bible *or* from the church fathers.


So I'm not crazy then? I was wondering what I missed other than a couple of verses were thrown out as support for her position, by which I agree we get wisdom, but that is not all the Holy Spirit provides.

----------


## jmdrake

> Incorrect.  First you and Lily both denied that there was a "law of faith" until I revealed it to you both.  You are in direct contradiction to the entire New Testament that tells you without apology that faith without our good works done in faith is dead faith.  You have nothing to support your argument here either because there is nothing that supports it in the word of God.  You are totally lost in scripture and in interpretation of it.
> 
> Tell me then what is the Apostle Paul saying here:
> 
> Romans 2:13-15
> 
> 13 (For it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified
> 
> 14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, they, not having the law, are a law unto themselves,
> ...


Hmmmmmm....what's the context of Romans 2:13-15?

_Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;_

Compare with Romans 3:23
_23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;_

So the Gentiles have sinned (Romans 3:23) which puts them under the same condemnation as mentioned in Romans 2:12, despite the fact that they *sometimes* keep the law as mentioned in Romans 2:13-15.  So what is Paul really talking about?  Again, let's look at context.  Paul was condemning the Jews for thinking they were better than the Gentiles for having the law.

_Romans 2:16-20

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law._

But even though the Jews knew the law, they weren't really keeping it.  In fact the lives of some Gentiles were better than the average Jew.

_21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written._

So what is God looking for?  People who are lawless?  (Romans chapter 1).  People who "boast about the law" and see it as their "salvation?" (Most of Romans chapter 2).  Or people with a new birth experience?

_25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God._

Now I totally agree that there is a "law of faith".  In fact Paul talks about that in the end of Romans 3.

_22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law._

But what is that "law of faith"?  Is it the sacraments?  Is the New Testament believer to trade one set of rituals for obtaining grace with another set of rituals for obtaining grace?  And yes, I know that you believe that it's possible to receive at least some grace without the sacraments, though I'm murky on how much "sacramentless grace" is available.  Where did Jesus tie faith to works?

_28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent._

And what is the result of doing the "work" of believing in Jesus?

_John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father._

And how does the Christian do the works?  The same way Jesus did them.

_John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works._

----------


## Terry1

> Persecution complex much? Sounds like the same exact thing you were accusing jmdrake of this morning with kevin, lily, and others. If I critiqued anything it was because I have a personal held belief and not based upon a friendly loyalty, as much as I care for jmdrake, can you make some effort to understand that people here are standing up for their own beliefs? This argument you think you are catching people with is erroneous and I want you to stop making it with regards to my position. It is no different than when S_F would tell lies about my motivation.
> 
> Try listening to what I say about sola scriptura one more time here, I *do not* have a problem with it per say, as it is between them and the Creator why and by what they are limiting their choices. Each church limits what it claims as authoritative verses. This is your battle to wage, not mine, because it is irrelevant to me. If I am attempting to find a common ground with someone then I will discuss from what they use. If I am explaining my beliefs then I will explain what I use and if they do not accept my sources then it is their problem not mine to force them to accept my sources. It is what it is...


"Persecution complex"??  I don't believe so moos--I believe the truth and evidence was in your post.  You seem to be devolving here as well by continuing in this charade.  Why don't you simply---*stop* for your own sake.

----------


## jmdrake

> It's impossible for God to be more than He is.  God is the embodiment of wisdom and knowledge from which everything else flows from.  God said--"I Am That I Am."


That's true.  Now provide a verse that says that all God is is wisdom and knowledge.  Or provide a quote by a church father.  Or admit you just made this up on the fly.  Here's what the Bible says God is.

_1 John 4:7,8 Beloved, let us love one another.  For love is of God and everyone that loveth is born of God and knoweth God.  He that loveth not knoweth not God FOR GOD IS LOVE._

And how did God proclaim Himself in the old testament?

_Exodus 30:5-7 

5 And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.

6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation._

Hmmm.....a lot more there than just "wisdom and mercy".




> That is a twisted corrupt belief you have and sola scripture is not possible and false.  You clearly have misinterpreted what I've said if you believe that I've "proven it" with anything I've attempted to reveal to you.


Except at this point we aren't talking about "sola scriptura".  We are talking about your made up and false belief God can be summed up by "knowledge and wisdom" and that there is no "wisdom" in the Bible, only knowledge.  You have not backed up that belief with anything other than your own opinion.  I doubt TER and HB share it.

----------


## Terry1

> Hmmmmmm....what's the context of Romans 2:13-15?
> 
> _Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;_
> 
> Compare with Romans 3:23
> _23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;_
> 
> So the Gentiles have sinned (Romans 3:23) which puts them under the same condemnation as mentioned in Romans 2:12, despite the fact that they *sometimes* keep the law as mentioned in Romans 2:13-15.  So what is Paul really talking about?  Again, let's look at context.  Paul was condemning the Jews for thinking they were better than the Gentiles for having the law.
> 
> ...


You're understanding isn't any clearer than those whom you support in their false belief of OSAS.  Anything you do as a result of believing is a "work"--*you have to being a willing participant and literally--physically perform that work of faith.  Being of the mind and conscience of God we willingly obey the Spirit and do the works that we've been called to do--but God does not impose His will upon us--nor does He literally do these works for us--they are our responsibility to do in obedience to the Holy Spirit.  This is called "saving faith that justifies us".

----------


## jmdrake

> You're understanding isn't any clearer than those whom you support in their false belief of OSAS.


Well at least I quoted the entire chapter instead of taking it out of context and twisting it to my viewpoint as you did.




> Anything you do as a result of believing is a "work"--*you have to being a willing participant and literally--physically perform that work of faith. Being of the mind and conscience of God we willingly obey the Spirit and do the works that we've been called to do--but God does not impose His will upon us--nor does He literally do these works for us--they are our responsibility to do in obedience to the Holy Spirit. This is called "saving faith that justifies us".


I didn't say that you didn't have to be a willing participant to do the work.  That doesn't take way from the fact that Jesus said it is God living in us that does the work.  But I see you would rather just give your own opinion than to deal with the words of Jesus.  Ultimately what separates me from OSAS is that I believe that while God clearly states His desire to come into us and His willingness and ability to work through us, that we always maintain the freedom of choice to evict Him if that's what we "really really want to do."

Edit: And I'm still waiting for you to quote a church father, even one, that says the Bible has no wisdom in it and that God is nothing more than knowledge and wisdom.

----------


## Terry1

> Well at least I quoted the entire chapter instead of taking it out of context and twisting it to my viewpoint as you did.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't say that you didn't have to be a willing participant to do the work.  That doesn't take way from the fact that Jesus said it is God living in us that does the work.  But I see you would rather just give your own opinion than to deal with the words of Jesus.  Ultimately what separates me from OSAS is that I believe that while God clearly states His desire to come into us and His willingness and ability to work through us, that we always maintain the freedom of choice to evict Him if that's what we "really really want to do."
> 
> Edit: And I'm still waiting for you to quote a church father, even one, that says the Bible has no wisdom in it and that God is nothing more than knowledge and wisdom.


You tell me--just what do you believe God is other than pure wisdom and knowledge--a "feeling" or an "experience"?  These too also come from wisdom and knowledge--otherwise you don't know what the source is of those "feelings and experiences".  You could see an angel of light appear before you--you can also feel something is of God.  People believe in aliens instead of demons too.  What spiritual attribute allows you to understand and *know* the difference?  Maybe you can answer this for yourself.

----------


## jmdrake

> You tell me--just what do you believe God is other than pure wisdom and knowledge--a "feeling" or an "experience"?


I gave you Biblical quotes describing God that went beyond knowledge and wisdom.  See post # 353.

----------


## Terry1

> That's true.  Now provide a verse that says that all God is is wisdom and knowledge.  Or provide a quote by a church father.  Or admit you just made this up on the fly.  Here's what the Bible says God is.
> 
> _1 John 4:7,8 Beloved, let us love one another.  For love is of God and everyone that loveth is born of God and knoweth God.  He that loveth not knoweth not God FOR GOD IS LOVE._
> 
> And how did God proclaim Himself in the old testament?
> 
> _Exodus 30:5-7 
> 
> 5 And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.
> ...


And everything you mention that God is---stems from having the "wisdom of God and the knowledge of who He is.  You realize nothing and everything is nothing without the wisdom and power of God.  Not your love, feelings, spiritual gifts---absolutely everything is nothing without the wisdom of God.

----------


## jmdrake

> And everything you mention that God is---stems from having the "wisdom of God and the knowledge of who He is.  You realize nothing and everything is nothing without the wisdom and power of God.  Not your love, feelings, spiritual gifts---absolutely everything is nothing without the wisdom of God.


And the church father that shares this opinion with you is.......?  That's right.  You made it up.

Edit: And thanks for the link in the other thread.  God is not determined by any of His attributes.  I couldn't have said that better myself.    I didn't think the Orthodox religion would confine God to merely being wisdom and knowledge.

----------


## Terry1

> And the church father that shares this opinion with you is.......?  That's right.  You made it up.


I've already posted this in the other thread, but here it is again.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Holy_Wisdom

*In the mystical theology of the Orthodox Church wisdom is understood as the Divine Logos who became incarnate as Jesus Christ.* In the Holy Family, Sophia is often seen as being represented by the Theotokos. Sophia is expressed as the Holy Wisdom of God and the saints, obtained through humility, and in Mary, the Theotokos, the first and greatest of all saints. In Orthodoxy, humility is the highest wisdom and is to be sought more than any other virtue. It is humility that cultivates not only the Holy Wisdom, but humility (in contrast to knowledge) is the defining quality that grants people salvation and entrance into Heaven. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And again--if Jesus is the wisdom of God incarnate---then what else could God be but the very same embodiment of wisdom Himself.  Incarnate simply means that Wisdom/God became flesh as Jesus.

----------


## jmdrake

> I've already posted this in the other thread, but here it is again.
> 
> http://orthodoxwiki.org/Holy_Wisdom
> 
> *In the mystical theology of the Orthodox Church wisdom is understood as the Divine Logos who became incarnate as Jesus Christ.* In the Holy Family, Sophia is often seen as being represented by the Theotokos. Sophia is expressed as the Holy Wisdom of God and the saints, obtained through humility, and in Mary, the Theotokos, the first and greatest of all saints. In Orthodoxy, humility is the highest wisdom and is to be sought more than any other virtue. It is humility that cultivates not only the Holy Wisdom, but humility (in contrast to knowledge) is the defining quality that grants people salvation and entrance into Heaven. 
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> And again--if Jesus is the wisdom of God incarnate---then what else could God be but the very same embodiment of wisdom Himself.


Yes.  And I responded.  Your on link states that God cannot be defined merely by His attributes.  That includes wisdom.  Sorry but you're on your own here.

----------


## Terry1

> Yes.  And I responded.  Your on link states that God cannot be defined merely by His attributes.  That includes wisdom.  Sorry but you're on your own here.



Good grief!  How utterly prideful and rebellious you are to deny a clear truth and the proof that you asked for stating clearly that Jesus is the incarnate wisdom of God Himself who is wisdom.  I'm afraid you've lost this case and will have to give up your pay check on this one. LOL

----------


## jmdrake

> Good grief!  How utterly prideful and rebellious you are to deny a clear truth and the proof that you asked for stating clearly that Jesus is the incarnate wisdom of God Himself who is wisdom.  I'm afraid you've lost this case and will have to give up your pay check on this one. LOL


Terry, you're a heretic according to the Russian Orthodox church.

_Lossky states that Wisdom as an energy of God (just as love, faith, and grace are also energies of God) is not to be ascribed to be the true essence of God, to do so is to deny the apophatic and incomprehensibility of God as God's essence.[1] Sophiology is contrary to the official view of the Orthodox Church, and Bulgakov's work was denounced by the Russian Orthodox authorities as heretical.[2]_

God is more than wisdom and knowledge.

----------


## moostraks

> "Persecution complex"??  I don't believe so moos--I believe the truth and evidence was in your post.  You seem to be devolving here as well by continuing in this charade.  Why don't you simply---*stop* for your own sake.


Persecution complex referred to your running around the forum today complaining about ridiculous plots against you by several different members because it seems you cannot separate a discussion on subject matter as being just that and not an attack on your character. You weren't even creative with your false allegations but used the same exact argument against two of us.

I am sure you would like to keep dismissing my responses as loyalty based and not legitimate and belittle me, because the substance of your argument is lacking, so if you can't wow them with facts baffle them with bull chips, eh?

----------


## moostraks

> Good grief!  How utterly prideful and rebellious you are to deny a clear truth and the proof that you asked for stating clearly that Jesus is the incarnate wisdom of God Himself who is wisdom.  I'm afraid you've lost this case and will have to give up your pay check on this one. LOL





> The Holy Spirit is the Power and Comforter of the believers, and was promised by Christ. Being the third Person of the Holy Trinity does not mean He is not equal in substance with the Father and Son. The Spirit is the life-giving energy and bower which makes the Church "the pillar and ground of the truth", 1 Timothy 3:15... 
> 
> "To each (person) is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good" (v. 17). Each person is given the energy, charisma and grace to work for the common interest of the people. The successful achievements of this "service" and "working" should be attributed to one and the same power - the Holy Spirit - Who bestows them. These "varieties", although separate, contribute to the same goal - the helping one another - and depend upon the same authority, the Holy Spirit, the Lord and the God. These are not varieties for destruction, but energies of unification in the service of the Will of God. They are fruits coming from the same root - the inspiration of God Himself...
> 
> The gift of the "utterance of wisdom" means the deeper understanding of the Will of God and mysteries of salvation; the "utterance of knowledge" means the good sense of knowledge; "faith" means the supernatural achievements through the Spirit; "healing" means the ability to heal various sicknesses; "working of miracles" means supernatural achievements; "prophesy" means the miracle in the form of preaching; "ability to distinguish between spirits" means being able to distinguish between good and evil spirits by which various spiritual expressions exist; "various kinds of tongues" means the gift of speaking in many dialects of which the meaning is known only to him who speaks them, not even an interpreter; "interpretation of tongues" means the ability to interpret the language of the speaker of "tongues" to the people who do not understand what is being said..."


http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7080

This also seems to disagree with your position of knowledge/wisdom is what is given and that in that spiritual knowledge comes the power.

----------


## Terry1

> http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7080
> 
> This also seems to disagree with your position of knowledge/wisdom is what is given and that in that spiritual knowledge comes the power.


The link you posted does not dispute what I've said or posted with regard to what another Orthodox site is teaching.  

It seems these two threads are conjoining on this topic.  I just posted another link from the Orthodox teaching that echo's what I've already posted yesterday regarding scriptural proof that Jesus is called wisdom in both Isaiah and 1 Corinthians.

I'll post is again here.

http://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodo...irtues/wisdom1

----------


## Terry1

> Persecution complex referred to your running around the forum today complaining about ridiculous plots against you by several different members because it seems you cannot separate a discussion on subject matter as being just that and not an attack on your character. You weren't even creative with your false allegations but used the same exact argument against two of us.
> 
> I am sure you would like to keep dismissing my responses as loyalty based and not legitimate and belittle me, because the substance of your argument is lacking, so if you can't wow them with facts baffle them with bull chips, eh?


You just won't give this up will you?  As far as I can tell--the only one trying to "baffle with bull chips here is you.  You're the one tossing the chips here while I've been trying to have a discussion on the wisdom of God.  Take your own advice and cut it out for cryin out loud.

----------


## moostraks

> You just won't give this up will you?  As far as I can tell--the only one trying to "baffle with bull chips here is you.  You're the one tossing the chips here while I've been trying to have a discussion on the wisdom of God.  Take your own advice and cut it out for cryin out loud.

----------


## Terry1

> Terry, you're a heretic according to the Russian Orthodox church.
> 
> _Lossky states that Wisdom as an energy of God (just as love, faith, and grace are also energies of God) is not to be ascribed to be the true essence of God, to do so is to deny the apophatic and incomprehensibility of God as God's essence.[1] Sophiology is contrary to the official view of the Orthodox Church, and Bulgakov's work was denounced by the Russian Orthodox authorities as heretical.[2]_
> 
> God is more than wisdom and knowledge.


So now I'm a heretic and accused by moos of baffling with bull chips" amongst other things.  Well--at least no one can say I didn't try to have a civil discussion with the two of you.  Now that I've seen you both at your best--I shudder to think what the worst could possibly be.

----------


## moostraks

> The link you posted does not dispute what I've said or posted with regard to what another Orthodox site is teaching.  
> 
> It seems these two threads are conjoining on this topic.  I just posted another link from the Orthodox teaching that echo's what I've already posted yesterday regarding scriptural proof that Jesus is called wisdom in both Isaiah and 1 Corinthians.
> 
> I'll post is again here.
> 
> http://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodo...irtues/wisdom1


 "The Spirit is the life-giving energy...Each person is given the energy, charisma and grace to work for the common interest of the people." are not defined by the term wisdom as postulated within your link and set forth by you as being spiritual insight by which the faithful are using as the power given in the Spirit nor does it tackle the previous quote referring to participating in the divine energies which are first and foremost, an all absorbing feeling of the living God, This is not a sentimental or emotional feeling or romantic fantasy. It is experience of the divine uncreated Light..."

Furthermore the link I gave you uses wisdom as most apply it, an aspect and gift, not as the solitary, defining attribute of the Creator. By what manner have you explained that the idea one is to submit to His Will is to be discarded in favor for your very self centered position because of your enlightened status? Your position seems very cold, clinical, and egocentric. And what reason have you given that reason is less corrupted than the flesh or emotions? It is as though you are latching on to an idea and trying to force conformity to that one thought.

----------


## moostraks

> So now I'm a heretic and accused by moos of baffling with bull chips" amongst other things.  Well--at least no one can say I didn't try to have a civil discussion with the two of you.  Now that I've seen you both at your best--I shudder to think what the worst could possibly be.


 Because your attempt at discussion was to make false allegations and then try and talk to me like I am a fool and a child that needs to be told what to do? Then decided to play victim with claiming I was attacking your character somehow? You wonder why people lash out? If you stuck to the original discussion then there would have been no reason for me to say you were baffling with bull chips.

----------


## Terry1

> Because your attempt at discussion was to make false allegations and then try and talk to me like I am a fool and a child that needs to be told what to do? Then decided to play victim with claiming I was attacking your character somehow? You wonder why people lash out? If you stuck to the original discussion then there would have been no reason for me to say you were baffling with bull chips.


Cry me a river moos--You _were_ attacking my character--there's no wiggling out of that one.  Saying that I was acting superior, accusing me of dismissing others feelings and experiences and trivializing others faith.  If trying to correct false doctrine is what you call "treating others faith as less valid"--then so be it.  I don't subscribe to the one world religion club.

----------


## moostraks

> Cry me a river moos--You _were_ attacking my character--there's no wiggling out of that one.  Saying that I was acting superior, accusing me of dismissing others feelings and experiences and trivializing others faith.  If trying to correct false doctrine is what you call "treating others faith as less valid"--then so be it.  I don't subscribe to the one world religion club.


You are acting superior with your claims which are baseless imo as you proclaim how some folks are just acting as Christians and how other's experiences are less valid because you believe them to be easily falsified as opposed to your spiritual wisdom. You have yet to show why we should take your propositions as valid. Try listening to how you talk at people. You haven't corrected anything. There were a number of points brought forth and instead you wanted to switch the discussion and be even more dismissive.

----------


## Terry1

> You are acting superior with your claims which are baseless imo as you proclaim how some folks are just acting as Christians and how other's experiences are less valid because you believe them to be easily falsified as opposed to your spiritual wisdom. You have yet to show why we should take your propositions as valid. Try listening to how you talk at people. You haven't corrected anything. There were a number of points brought forth and instead you wanted to switch the discussion and be even more dismissive.


You're absolutely right moos--I think everyone should follow your example instead of mine.  After all--I could never show the compassion and restraint you do.  Well done!

----------


## Kevin007

> That passage *is* possible and is true.  I'm breaking my silence here because this is one of those *key verses you need to understand that annihilate your OSAS doctrine.
> 
> Which *law* is Paul referring to here Kevin?  You need to study this and understand the difference between the *dead law of works* and the *law of faith*.  Otherwise, like Lily in this thread, you will both continue on this path of believing a lie and false doctrine.
> 
> Paul is referring to the law of faith in this passage--not the law of dead works.  You need to pray and study the word of God and read the OT to find out why Paul distinguishes between these two very polar opposite laws and why it's a curse to do one and not the other.
> 
> You stating that "this passage is not possible" is calling the Apostle Paul wrong and a liar, which he's not.  He's trying to tell you the very same thing I have been trying to drive home to you for a very long time--repeatedly.  
> 
> Paul refers to the "doers of the law are justified". Paul is referring to the "law of faith" in this passage.  The very same thing that James is telling you that faith without our works is dead.  Dead faith can not justify you or anyone.  Hence Paul is saying the same thing as James--that only the "doers of the law of faith shall be justified.  This is why you and Lily both have been fighting tooth and claw to support your OSAS doctrine that is false, because neither of you are understanding the difference between these two covenants and laws.
> ...



Terry- it is Jesus who Justifies us. Jesus. Simple- yet profound. Trust in Him. Stop trusting in yourself. Jesus was the only one who could satisfy God's wrath against us. Not you, not me. All of our righteousness is like filthy rags.

----------


## Kevin007

Terry- forget about everything else for just a second. Why did Jesus die on the Cross?

----------


## Kevin007

> *12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.*
> 
> You're continually implying that God is making our choices for us.  How God works in us is through His Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit leads us and guides us, but the Holy Spirit doesn't keep our faith for us nor does the Holy Spirit make us do anything without us choosing or willingly doing it ourselves.  What we do, we do because we've been empowered by the wisdom and knowledge of God.  We're not puppets.  We were created with perfect freedom in Christ.  I don't believe you understand what perfect freedom or the "perfect law of liberty in Christ" entail.
> 
> That is why that very same scripture tell you to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling".  It's our faith that's tested--our faith is ours to keep and maintain through our good works--of which without faith is dead.  This is what this scripture is saying.  We are tested because everything is our choice in every circumstance of every minute of every single day of our lives to the very end of them.
> 
> God works in us by empowering us with His wisdom and knowledge.  Now you answer my question that you failed to answer before.  How do you believe God empowers us jmd?


Our faith isn't maintained by good works, number one. Number two is even if it was; it does not say SALVATION is maintained by good works.

----------


## Kevin007

Terry- you clearly do not understand how God the Father sees us (Believers), because of what Jesus did for us. God the Father sees us as "perfect". Not that we do not sin- because we all do; every single day. Our eternal position is solid. Frozen in time as perfect- a perfect relationship with the Father, because we accepted His Son's free gift/ finished work at Calvary. God is most happy with us, I believe when we fully realize and trust in Jesus' finished work. You cannot mix law and grace. EVER. If you do it cancels out grace completely and Jesus' free gift becomes not. You cannot accept the gift, yet still try to earn it or keep it through works (obedience). Obedience and salvation are polar opposites. Obedience is works and something we contribute to (our sanctification).

When Jesus sees us, He sees perfection. When the Father sees us, He sees Jesus. He took away ALL OUR SINS and He placed His perfection upon us. WE ARE MADE RIGHT WITH GOD.

----------


## Kevin007

> You're absolutely right moos--I think everyone should follow your example instead of mine.  After all--I could never show the compassion and restraint you do.  Well done!


Terry- I'm sure I'm not the only one to ask. Two wrongs do not make a right (you have accused me many times of reading comprehension)- I'm not perfect, we all know that; you do not have to answer as it is a personal question (2). Are you a drinker? And are you BiPolar? I'm just curious; because either one or both might help explain your posts lately.

----------


## Kevin007

> Incorrect.  First you and Lily both denied that there was a "law of faith" until I revealed it to you both.  You are in direct contradiction to the entire New Testament that tells you without apology that faith without our good works done in faith is dead faith.  You have nothing to support your argument here either because there is nothing that supports it in the word of God.  You are totally lost in scripture and in interpretation of it.
> 
> Tell me then what is the Apostle Paul saying here:
> 
> Romans 2:13-15
> 
> 13 (For it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified
> 
> 14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, they, not having the law, are a law unto themselves,
> ...


the doers of the law  eh? really? Did you forget that no one could keep the Law, except Jesus? Did you forget that if you break one law, you break them all? I guess you do not understand that you possibly could not be justified by the Law. Jesus did not have to die if you could? This verse is telling you you cannot be justified by anything other than Jesus. Read the entire Chapter.

----------


## Kevin007

> Persecution complex referred to your running around the forum today complaining about ridiculous plots against you by several different members because it seems you cannot separate a discussion on subject matter as being just that and not an attack on your character. You weren't even creative with your false allegations but used the same exact argument against two of us.
> 
> I am sure you would like to keep dismissing my responses as loyalty based and not legitimate and belittle me, because the substance of your argument is lacking, so if you can't wow them with facts baffle them with bull chips, eh?


I just asked her if she was a drinker or bipolar....

----------


## Kevin007

> You're understanding isn't any clearer than those whom you support in their false belief of OSAS.  Anything you do as a result of believing is a "work"--*you have to being a willing participant and literally--physically perform that work of faith.  Being of the mind and conscience of God we willingly obey the Spirit and do the works that we've been called to do--but God does not impose His will upon us--nor does He literally do these works for us--they are our responsibility to do in obedience to the Holy Spirit.  This is called "saving faith that justifies us".


a work of faith is putting your full trust in Jesus.

----------


## Terry1

> I just asked her if she was a drinker or bipolar....


You and your friends are just so very--very sad.  This is all any of you can ever come up with instead of an intelligent civil discussion.  Nothing but name calling, character assassinations, fabricating lies and too many others to mention.   I give up begging any of you to be anything other than what you are.  You certainly deserve one another.  

You don't deserve the truth or civility--you deserve exactly what you've chosen for yourselves.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> You and your friends are just so very--very sad.  This is all any of you can ever come up with instead of an intelligent civil discussion.  Nothing but name calling, character assassinations, fabricating lies and too many others to mention.   I give up begging any of you to be anything other than what you are.  You certainly deserve one another.  
> 
> You don't deserve the truth or civility--you deserve exactly what you've chosen for yourselves.


Indeed.   That's why I put them on ignore long ago.  Pray for them plz, as I do. ~hugs~

----------


## Terry1

> Indeed.   That's why I put them on ignore long ago.  Pray for them plz, as I do. ~hugs~


I have and I am hb--  I've never seen the likes of what I have today--well--other than when Sola and Nang were here. I will pray for them.

----------


## Kevin007

> You and your friends are just so very--very sad.  This is all any of you can ever come up with instead of an intelligent civil discussion.  *Nothing but name calling, character assassinations, fabricating lies* and too many others to mention.   I give up begging any of you to be anything other than what you are.  You certainly deserve one another.  
> 
> You don't deserve the truth or civility--you deserve exactly what you've chosen for yourselves.


would you like me to dig up all the insults that you started and hurled at me, Lily, jm and even Annie in the recent weeks? It was you who dug that hole. It is you who are paranoid.

----------


## Kevin007

> I have and I am hb--  I've never seen the likes of what I have today--well--other than when Sola and Nang were here. I will pray for them.


I don't want your prayers as God won't hear them as you pray to idols and saints. You DO NOT fully trust in Jesus' sacrifice as evidenced by your hundreds of posts. I am sure I am correct in saying it is you who need the prayers and I am sure MANY posters would agree with me.

----------


## jmdrake

> So now I'm a heretic and accused by moos of baffling with bull chips" amongst other things.  Well--at least no one can say I didn't try to have a civil discussion with the two of you.  Now that I've seen you both at your best--I shudder to think what the worst could possibly be.


Terry, you do realize that I only called you a heretic after you called me "prideful and rebellious"?  No, I guess you don't realize that.  You only see the barbs that come at you.  You gloss over the ones that you throw out first.  Anyway, I said "according to the Russian Orthodox Church".  In retrospect I don't know if you have adopted the particular belief the Russian Orthodox church found heretical but you do have the belief that theologian Lossky said lead the the heresy (his words) of Sophiology, namely the idea that Wisdom is the essence of God as opposed to being an aspect (energy as he put it) of God.  I guess he could call you "prideful and rebellious".  After all he's likely far more versed in Eastern Orthodox tradition and beliefs than you are.  I would just say that you have your own opinion.....as do I.

----------


## moostraks

> "The Spirit is the life-giving energy...Each person is given the energy, charisma and grace to work for the common interest of the people." are not defined by the term wisdom as postulated within your link and set forth by you as being spiritual insight by which the faithful are using as the power given in the Spirit nor does it tackle the previous quote referring to participating in the divine energies which are first and foremost, an all absorbing feeling of the living God, This is not a sentimental or emotional feeling or romantic fantasy. It is experience of the divine uncreated Light..."
> 
> Furthermore the link I gave you uses wisdom as most apply it, an aspect and gift, not as the solitary, defining attribute of the Creator. By what manner have you explained that the idea one is to submit to His Will is to be discarded in favor for your very self centered position because of your enlightened status? Your position seems very cold, clinical, and egocentric. And what reason have you given that reason is less corrupted than the flesh or emotions? It is as though you are latching on to an idea and trying to force conformity to that one thought.





> You are acting superior with your claims which are baseless imo as you proclaim how some folks are just acting as Christians and how other's experiences are less valid because you believe them to be easily falsified as opposed to your spiritual wisdom. You have yet to show why we should take your propositions as valid. Try listening to how you talk at people. You haven't corrected anything. There were a number of points brought forth and instead you wanted to switch the discussion and be even more dismissive.





> You're absolutely right moos--I think everyone should follow your example instead of mine.  After all--I could never show the compassion and restraint you do.  Well done!


Again, you wish to switch the discussion to something different and have failed to show why your position of wisdom is a solitary, defining attribute of the Creator. Using Galatians 5 as a framework for what this spiritual insight you claim to have received has given fruit to, I would say if it were me I would check my premise for my argument.

----------


## Terry1

> Terry, you do realize that I only called you a heretic after you called me "prideful and rebellious"?  No, I guess you don't realize that.  You only see the barbs that come at you.  You gloss over the ones that you throw out first. .


I was wrong to call you prideful and rebellious, even if in passion to convince you of something I did.  I apologize for that.  






> Anyway, I said "according to the Russian Orthodox Church".  In retrospect I don't know if you have adopted the particular belief the Russian Orthodox church found heretical but you do have the belief that theologian Lossky said lead the the heresy (his words) of Sophiology, namely the idea that Wisdom is the essence of God as opposed to being an aspect (energy as he put it) of God.  I guess he could call you "prideful and rebellious".  After all he's likely far more versed in Eastern Orthodox tradition and beliefs than you are.  I would just say that you have your own opinion.....as do I.


The first link I gave you on the "Holy Wisdom" was not what I meant to provide you with to prove my point.  That was a mistake as I've already pointed out that you've seemed to ignore and continue to accuse me of subscribing to.  No--I had no idea that there was anything called "Sophiology" until I read that link.  Yes, I'm guilty of not reading the *entire link before shipping it off here to this thread. 

What I meant to give you was the second link that I provided which far better explained my position and the church teaches as well with regard to "wisdom".

Point is here--it's more than obvious what your mission has been attempting to find any small contradiction to use against the EOC members here, along with your very sad accomplices.  At this point--I'm just going to refuse to play this game with you and your friends and bow completely out of this debate with you, moos and Kevin and leave you to yourselves at a most beloved members good judgment and request.  You indeed deserve one another and to be left to what it is that you choose to believe.  

Carry on then with what you all do best.  

In Christ,
Terry

----------


## jmdrake

> I was wrong to call you prideful and rebellious, even if in passion to convince you of something I did.  I apologize for that.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first link I gave you on the "Holy Wisdom" was not what I meant to provide you with to prove my point.  That was a mistake as I've already pointed out that you've seemed to ignore and continue to accuse me of subscribing to.  No--I had no idea that there was anything called "Sophiology" until I read that link.  Yes, I'm guilty of not reading the *entire link before shipping it off here to this thread. 
> 
> What I meant to give you was the second link that I provided which far better explained my position and the church teaches as well with regard to "wisdom".
> ...


LOL.  You apologize and then do the same thing in the same post.  Fine.  We all have to grow.  But you are missing the bigger picture.  It's not just that you gave me the "wrong link".  It's also that the link you gave proved your error with regards to sola scriptura.  And that is this.  Even people who reject sola scriptura can, and do, come up with theological positions vastly different than yours.  That doesn't make your position wrong.  But it does mean you can't claim that your position *must* be right either.  I have no "mission" and no "accomplices".  I simply call them as I see them.  It's interesting enough that in one of these threads heavenlyboy basically apologized to moosetracks for her running into Orthodox Christians like yourself.  That should tell you something.  Quit making this so personal.

Edit: One more thing that is worth addressing directly.  That is your absurd claim that I have been "attempting to find any small contradiction to use against the EOC members here".  Really Terry?  *Who brought up this whole Wisdom = God argument?  It was YOU!*  And I honestly beieved you made that up yourelf.  Note that neither HB nor TER backed you up on it.  I don't think they believe it.  I hope not as there is no biblical support for it.  And it's not my fault that your first link contradicted your own position.  Proverbs 26:27 warns *"Whoever digs a pit will fall into it; if someone rolls a stone, it will roll back on them."*  While I'm not a believer in predestination (at least the Calvinist version) I am a strong believer in providence.  And I chalk you finding the "wrong" link up to God's providence.  Maybe He wanted to know that the "God is just wisdom" belief is incorrect or at the very least debatable.  Maybe He didn't want you to get so caught up in your own knowledge that you would attack others for having a different viewpoint.  I don't know.  I do know that I didn't read your link as a part of some "mission" to find a "contradiction" to use against "EOC members".  It's illogical for you to even think that.  The same is true, though in a different way, with TER demanding I find some church father to agree with my metaphor position on the Eucharist.  I would have been happy to leave it at "The Bible supports my viewpoint, though I can understand from the Bible why you have yours."  But that wasn't good enough.  His demanding that I find support for my position among the "church fathers" is what led me to finding the contradiction.  I didn't start out trying to find it.

Anyway, I see the Eucharist belief and the "God = wisdom" belief as vastly different.  The Eucharist belief requires taking one possible interpretation of what Jesus said and throwing out the other interpretation.  The "God = wisdom" belief requires going beyond scripture altogether.  Even where Paul said "Christ became the wisdom of God" he also said "Christ became the power of God".  I know your view is "Power flows from wisdom" but that's not what Paul said.

----------


## moostraks

> Cyril of Jerusalem 
> 
> This is a new kind of water, a living, leaping water, welling up for those who are worthy. But why did Christ call the grace of the Spirit water? Because all things are dependent on water; plants and animals have their origin in water. Water comes down from heaven as rain, and although it is always the same in itself, it produces many different effects, one in the palm tree, another in the vine, and so on throughout the whole of creation. It does not come down, now as one thing, now as another, but while remaining essentially the same, it adapts itself to the needs of every creature that receives it. 
> In the same way the Holy Spirit, whose nature is always the same, simple and indivisible, apportions grace to each person as he wills. Like a dry tree which puts forth shoots when watered, the soul bears the fruit of holiness when repentance has made it worthy of receiving the Holy Spirit. Although the Spirit never changes, the effects of his action, by the will of God and in the name of Christ, are both many and marvelous. 
> 
> The Spirit makes one person a teacher of divine truth, inspires another to prophesy, gives another the power of casting out devils, enables another to interpret holy Scripture. The Spirit strengthens one person's self-control, shows another how to help the poor, teaches another to fast and lead a life of asceticism, makes another oblivious to the need of the body, trains another for martyrdom. His action is different in different people, but the Spirit himself is always the same. In each person, Scripture says, the Spirit reveals his presence in a particular way for the common good.
> 
> The Spirit comes gently and makes himself known by his fragrance. He is not felt as a burden, for he is light, very light. Rays of light and knowledge stream before him as he approaches. The Spirit comes with the tenderness of a true friend and protector to save, to heal, to teach, to counsel, to strengthen, to console. The Spirit comes to enlighten the mind first of the one who receives him, and then, through him, the minds of others as well. 
> 
> As light strikes the eyes of one who comes out of darkness into the sunshine and enables that person to see clearly things he or she could not discern before, so light floods the soul of the one counted worthy of receiving the Holy Spirit and enables that person to see things beyond the range of human vision, things hitherto undreamed of.


Isaiah 11:1-2

The Branch From Jesse
11 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
    from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on him
    the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
    the Spirit of counsel and of might,
    the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the Lord

Thomas Aquinas says that four of these gifts: wisdom, understanding, knowledge, and counsel-direct the intellect; and the other three gifts: fortitude, piety, and fear of the Lord-direct the will toward God. Found this rather interesting and a reasonable explanation of my belief and experiences. If we do not submit to the Spirit, as a servant to His Will, allowing the water to flow through us to others then the good works we thought we have done are merely works of the flesh done for a wrong intention or purpose.

----------


## Terry1

http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts..._wisdom_of_god


*Jesus - The Wisdom of God*
*
If Jesus is the Word of God, it follows that he is also the Wisdom of God. For where God's Word is, there is also his Wisdom.*


Transcript 

In meditating on the various names and titles of Jesus in the Holy Scripture, we want to meditate a bit right now on the conviction that Jesus is God’s Wisdom, the chokhmah or the sophia of God. *When the Scripture speaks about Jesus as the Word, it’s very clear that there’s a definite article, that Jesus is the Word of God. But it would follow, even if we would have no Biblical texts, that if Jesus really is the Word of God, the  Son of God, the Logos, then he must also be the Wisdom, because where God’s Word is, there is the Wisdom of God.

*According to the whole skopos of Scripture, particularly what is called the “Wisdom literature” in the Old Testament—the Psalms and the Proverbs and Ecclesiastes; the Wisdom of Solomon; the Wisdom of Jesus, Son of Sirach—the human beings are called to pursue wisdom; above all things, to get wisdom; that the wisdom that abides with God’s throne, as Sirach puts it, is what human beings should seek after and desire and want more than anything else; that it is more precious than gold, sweeter than honey.

In the Bible, the worst possible condition that a human being can be in is to be a fool—“The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’ ”—to be foolish, to go astray, to wander, to be in darkness. And what one must get is wisdom and understanding and knowledge.

But here we want to see from the beginning that there is a very special character to wisdom in the Bible. It’s different from knowledge. In fact, in the tradition, there is always a distinction made between the sophia, the wisdom, and the gnosis, the knowledge; or, in Latin, the sapientia, the wisdom, [and] the scientia, where you get the English word “science,” which is knowledge.

And wisdom—we try to define it quickly for our purposes today—is not simply factual knowledge or information or data. It’s insight into the very nature of things, the reality of things. To use patristic language, it’s the knowledge of the Logos of reality whereby you know things’ significance, their meaning, their relationship to everything else, their purpose. And knowing those things, then you know how to relate to them, and you know how to use them. You might even say that wisdom is a kind of a practical application of knowledge.

Wisdom is not only knowing things, it’s knowing what to do with them, knowing how to deal with them, knowing how to treat them, knowing how to use them, knowing what is appropriate, what is inappropriate, and knowing it very existentially, vitally, in life itself. For example, what the present moment would demand, or what would be the right solution in this particular instance, or what would be the best way of proceeding: this is wisdom.
 Here, of course, the teaching of Scripture would be very clear, that God is wise. “In wisdom, he creates all things,” it says in Scripture. “In wisdom has he made them all.” That wisdom, in the Wisdom literature, for example, in Proverbs 8 or in the Wisdom of Solomon, you have it said that basically, God is always acting with his Wisdom. He is doing everything. And in the Scriptures, there is even a personification of Wisdom. Wisdom speaks in the first person: “I, Wisdom, dwell in prudence. I find knowledge and discretion.” So you have this expression of Wisdom somehow personified, Wisdom acting. You have, for example, in Provebers 8, which was a very debated text in understanding Jesus Christ, it being said that


the Lord (Kyrios, Yahweh) created me (or fashioned me) at the begin*ning of his work, the first of his acts of old. Ages ago I was set up. At the first, before the beginning of the earth, when there were no depths, I, Wisdom, was brought forth. When there were no springs abounding with water, before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth. Before he had made the earth with its fields or the first of the dust of the world.

When he established the heavens, I was there. When he drew a circle on the face of the deep; when he made firm the skies above; when he established the fountains of the deep; when he assigned to the sea its limits, so that the waters might not transgress his command; when he marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was beside him, I, Wisdom (Sophia, the chokhmah of God).

It says, “Like a master workman”—in Greek that would be “demi-urgos,” the one by whom and through whom God acts—“I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, rejoicing in his inhabited world, delighting in the sons of man.” And then Wisdom continues:


Now, my sons, listen to me: Happy are those who keep my ways. Hear instruction. Be wise. Do not neglect it. Happy is the man who listens to me, Wisdom, watching daily at my gates, waiting beside my doors. For he who finds me, Wisdom, finds life and obtains favor from the Lord. But he who misses me injures himself. All who hate me, Wisdom, actually love death.

So we have this, what we could call “hypostasization” of Wisdom, in the writings of the Old Testament. And here, because “chokhmah” is feminine in Hebrew, the Wisdom is presented as a “she,” and so when a man or a woman, a human being, is loving wisdom, it speaks about “her”: “I loved her as my bride. I saw her; I wanted her. I lived for her. I did everything to get her.” And when Wisdom is spoken of in a pronoun in the Bible, it’s often spoken of as “she.” For example, in Proverbs 9, it says:


Wisdom has built her house. She has set up her seven pillars. She has slaughtered her beasts. She has mixed her wine. She also has set her table. She has sent out her maids to call from the highest places in the town: “Whoever is simple, let him turn in here.” To him who is without sense, she says, “Come, eat of my bread. Drink of the wine I have mixed. Leave simpleness, and live, and walk in the way of insight.”

So you have this expression of Wisdom as a bride, one to be courted, one to be found, one to be loved.

In our modern time, of course there are movements and various places in Russia and the West, where wisdom is somehow even considered to be a feminine element in God, a kind of divine feminine, and that “sophia” may even be considered to be a kind of a counterpart to “logos,” sort of a feminine counterpart, that logos is the masculine, so chokhmah or sophia is the feminine and so on. And there is that kind of sophiological tradition—Jakob Böhme, Berdyaev in Russia, Bulgakov, Florensky, Solovyov, who had a vision of Sophia, the Wisdom of God, as a beautiful woman, clothed in red in the Egyptian desert and so on. So there is this contemplation of wisdom as a feminine element.

But here [what] we have to say very clearly is, according to Orthodox Christianity, there is no masculine and no feminine in God at all. God is God. God is not like anything in creation. God is beyond even being. You could even say that God is not being. As Gregory Palamas said, “If God is, I am not. If I am, God is not.” If we call God “being,” then I should not be called “being”; but if I am called “being,” like “human being,” then you can’t think of God as being. And, of course, in Scripture, God and all that belongs to God—all his qualities, his wisdom, exactly, his love, his truth, his power, his glory, his splendor, his peace—they are all appropriate to God, and they are all not like anything else. There’s nothing comparable to them in heaven [or] on earth.

So there would be no teaching whatsoever in classical Eastern Orthodox Christianity as divine masculine or divine feminine. You have masculine and feminine when you have human beings, when you have creatures, even plants and animals, actually. You have those gender distinctions.

Of course, Jesus of Nazareth, our Lord, is a man. He’s not a woman. But it is certainly the teaching of Scripture and certainly that of Eastern Orthodox Tradition that the hypostatic Wisdom of God himself is Jesus Christ. Generally speaking, in Christian theology, Jesus is the personification of absolutely every divine quality. He is the personification in human form of God’s love, of God’s truth, of God’s beauty, of God’s power, of God’s peace, and, so too, of God’s Wisdom.

So there is no doubt whatsoever that in Eastern Orthodox Christian classical theology, the Wisdom of God is Jesus Christ. Jesus is this Wisdom. He is the Wisdom that we desire. He is the Wisdom that we must have.

Now, metaphorically we could say we should seek that Wisdom who is Jesus, as a bride, as a beautiful beloved, as one that we would adore, as one that we would worship, the one that we would want to be together with, that we would want to be his home. We would want Wisdom to dwell in us. We would want to become wise. But that Wisdom in the human form is Jesus Christ the God-man.

Here, St. Athanasius the Great and others of the Church Fathers would say… And Fr. Bulgakov in Russia picked this up, but he treated it in a very strange and idiosyncratic manner which we do not need to get into here on the radio at all. You can read Fr. Bulgakov’s writings. A lot of them are translated into English now. But Fr. Bulgakov saw in Wisdom a kind of very unique thing in the Godhead, almost to the point where you have Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and then Wisdom somehow as a special characteristic of God, somehow even identified with the very nature of God himself, because of that quality of Wisdom to bring everything together and put it proper order and to keep in harmony.

So there [it] is, definitely; we don’t need Fr. Bulgakov for this. You just need the Bible and the Church Fathers to tell us that the Wisdom of God is not a created thing. As St. Athanasius would argue about the Logos, he would say, you can’t imagine God as being alogos, wordless, without the Logos. The Logos is an element of the very, very being of God himself, and that element has its personification for human beings in Jesus Christ our Lord.

But Athanasius says exactly the same thing about Wisdom. He says you can’t imagine God as asophos. He said if you read the Bible, you read the Psalms, you read the Proverbs, you read Ecclesiastes, you read the Wisdom of Solomon, you see that Wisdom is always with God. It “abides with his throne,” to use Sirach’s expression. It’s always there. And it is not a creature. Athanasius will argue against the Arians that God does not create Wisdom. There is the Wisdom that is God’s own Wisdom, an element of the very being of God, the person of God, that God can never, ever, ever be without. There is divine Wisdom.

But—I should say And Athanasius, however, and the Fathers would also say, “Nevertheless, this Wisdom is revealed in created form,” in human form, in creaturely form, we should say. And, of course, that Wisdom that God made at the beginning of the age, by whom he created all things, is Jesus Christ.

If we just followed this type of argumentation: if, according to the Scripture, God does everything by his Wisdom—he creates in Wisdom, sanctifies in Wisdom; he acts in Wisdom; he is not a fool; God is not foolish. God is not stupid. God is not dark; God is truth—therefore there’s always the Wisdom in the divine activity. But if you just took a sentence like “God created all things through his Wisdom,” well, the New Testament, St. Paul, for example, would say very clearly that God creates everything by Christ—by Christ, through Christ, in Christ, for Christ—just exactly in the same way as the Old Testament would speak about the divine Wisdom.

So St. Athanasius would say that when you’re reading Holy Scripture and reading about Wisdom, you have to keep two things in mind: the divine, eternal, uncreated, ever-existing Wisdom that is the Wisdom of God himself that is truly divine and uncreated; and then you have Wisdom as expressed in creation, Wisdom in its created forms. And here St. Athanasius and the other Fathers would say you can see God’s Wisdom in all that exists. If you contemplate the stars and the moon and the plants and the animals and the trees, that you have a revelation of the very Wisdom of God in all of these things, as well as his power, as well as his beauty, as well as his truth, as well as his glory and his splendor.

That Wisdom is also there, revealed. And then, according to St. Athanasius—because he wrote about this extensively, especially in interpreting Proverbs 8, because the Arians said, “The Logos is a creature, the Son of God is a creature, and therefore [the] Wisdom of God is a creature.” And they used the text of Proverbs, that “the Lord created me, fashioned me in the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.” So the Arians said, “You see? It was the first creative act of God: to create Wisdom, and then God uses his Wisdom as an instrument, as a kind of demi-urgos through which he does all of his activities. It’s kind of like a tool in the hand of God.”

But here Athanasius would say, “Hey, wait a minute. The very Wisdom by which God acts is divine. It’s always with him. God is not wisdomless.” But at the same time, what he is saying is that Jesus, in his humanity, is the human expression of this Wisdom of God. Just like Jesus in the flesh is the expression of everything of God. And we should remember that Jesus is always the God-man. You can’t separate in Jesus. You can make a distinction between what is divine and what is human, but they are united inseparably, without division, in Jesus.

So you have Athanasius even saying that the same way that, it says in Scripture, God kind of redeemed the world in Christ before the foundation of the world, so you can say he also revealed his Wisdom in creation and had it in mind even before the foundation of the world; that that Wisdom that is revealed in Christ and as Christ was with God before the foundation of the world. And sometimes the New Testament speaks that way in a very striking manner. It would say, for example, that Jesus was the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world. He was the redeemer of the world before the world was even made, because that is an element of his very being as a person, as the Son of God, that God knew before he even created the world.

Another point should be made here, and that is this: In the Bible, you have very many words for “create” or “fashion” or “form” or “make” or “do” that are not always very technically distinguished. I think that’s very important to know, that the Bible, when it speaks about “create” or “fashion” or “form” or “make,” even in the very first chapters of Genesis in the formation of the world, you have these different words used different ways. Some of the patristic scholars even tell us that a very clear and accurate distinction between “coming forth from God” and “abiding with God” and “being in God” and then “being created by God as a ktisis, as a creature,” that that distinction only was clearly formulated in the fourth century when Athanasius and Basil and Gregory and Hilary and Ambrose were fighting with these Arians and Eunomians who said that Jesus was a creature.

At that time, then, the words had to be defined very, very carefully. So when you had words like “proceeded from” or “abided in” or “were born of” or “begotten of,” the Holy Fathers would say these kind of words depict or declare or affirm or testify to the fact of that which is not created, which is ever-existing. And then, of course, the term “to make,” and in Greek “poiō,” to make, that would then be considered to be an act of God’s will.

So the Fathers would make a distinction [between] what exists just according to the very being of God and then what exists according to the will of God. What does God bring into existence which before was not? And here, when this is applied to Jesus, you have this distinction very clearly made. For example, the Nicene Creed makes this distinction when it speaks about Jesus being “gennēthenta ou poiēthenta, begotten, not made”: born of the Father, an element proceeding from God’s very being and not a creature of God that God willed to make by his free act out of nothing.

The same thing is said about the Holy Spirit, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, abides in the Son, everlastingly, eternally, unchangedly, in a divine manner; that God didn’t decide to create for himself a spirit. He did not create for himself a word. He does not create for himself wisdom. Wisdom, word, power, spirit: these are realities that are divine. Nevertheless, certainly when it comes to Jesus Christ, who is a man, born and becoming man [by] the Virgin Mary, then you have all of these realities now being shown forth, depicted, and revealed in human form.

So you have Jesus as the Wisdom that God fashioned for humanity from before the foundation of the world, revealed in the world in human form, but that very Wisdom itself was before, as we heard in Proverbs, before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, before he made the earth with its fields, or [before] there was any dust in the world. When he established the heavens, that Wisdom was already there, and that Wisdom is the very Wisdom of God himself.

Now, it’s also said in Scripture, it’s probably most beautifully put in the book called “the Wisdom of Solomon,” that this Wisdom which is always there with God, that this Wisdom which is divine, the Wisdom that is not a creature, that Wisdom which according to the Wisdom of Solomon is radiant and unfading, found by those who seek her when those hunger and thirst for God, they have a fear of God and they come and discover the very divine Wisdom that is the Wisdom of God himself, but what you also have in the Wisdom of Solomon is that this [this is the] Wisdom by which God acts, the Wisdom that is inherent in every one of his actions, that is called “the Fashioner of all things.”

For example, in Solomon, it says, “I learned both what is secret and what is manifest,” and the holy Fathers would say [that] what is secret is in the depth of God, divine; what is manifest is what is revealed to us through the divine energies, and, ultimately, most perfectly, through the very humanity in created form, in Jesus himself. Then it says, “For Wisdom (chokhmah), the fashioner of all things, taught me”: the maker of all things, the former of all things.

And then it adds a very wonderful thing. It speaks about the spirit that is in Wisdom, or “the spirit of Wisdom.” The Prophets used that expression also. For example, in Isaiah, when speaking about Jesus, it says, “On him was the spirit of understanding, the spirit of Wisdom, the spirit of the fear of God.” That’s the kind of language that you find in the Scripture: the Holy Spirit, the ruach of God, the breath of God. You find this throughout the Bible so that you cannot think of God without his Spirit, and you cannot think of God without his Word or his Wisdom.

But then the Spirit is the spirit of the Word. It’s the spirit that vivifies the Word, but it’s also the spirit of Wisdom. It’s the living, existential, vital aspect of Wisdom itself. [It] is what it is because of the spirit that dwells within Wisdom. Here again we have that same teaching that we have all the time: there is no Word without Spirit. There is no Wisdom without Spirit. There is no truth without Spirit. There is no life without Spirit. So, concerning Wisdom specifically, it says in the Wisdom of Solomon 7: “For in her”—Sophia, Wisdom…”

And here of course, the “her” is used because it’s feminine in Hebrew; and, by the way, so is the word “spirit” feminine, but as Gregory the Theologian says, we never draw theological conclusions by the gender of nouns in any language. He pointed out with St. Jerome [who] did the same thing, that when it comes to the word “spirit,” for example, it’s feminine in Hebrew and Aramaic, it’s masculine in Latin, and it’s neuter in Greek, so we don’t build theologies on the basis of gender. In fact, even in [the] Russian language, the very word “trinity,” troitsa, is a feminine; it takes feminine adjectives. But that’s how language works. You don’t draw conclusions about masculinity and femininity in that same sense.

However, here you have: “in Wisdom there is a Spirit that is”—and this is really amazing, what is said—


In Wisdom there is a Spirit that is intelligent, holy, unique, manifold, subtle, mobile, clear, unpolluted, distinct, invulnerable, loving the good, keen, irresistible, beneficent, humane, steadfast, sure, free from anxiety, all-powerful, overseeing all, penetrating through all spirits that are intelligent and pure and most subtle. For Wisdom itself is more mobile than any motion. Because of her pureness she pervades and penetrates all things. For she is a breath, a wind of the power of God, and a pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty. Therefore nothing defiled gains entrance into her. For Wisdom is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the working of God, an image of his goodness.

And here we will see that logos (word) and chokhma (wisdom, sophia) [are] identified with eikona, with icon, with image. We will talk about that later.


Though Wisdom is but one, she can do all things. And while remaining in herself, she renews all things. In every generation, Wisdom passes into holy souls and makes them friends of God and prophets, for God loves nothing so much as the man who lives with Wisdom. For she is more beautiful than the sun and excels every constellation of the stars. Compared with the light, she is found to be superior, for it is succeeded by the night, but against Wisdom, evil does not prevail.

She reaches mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and she orders all things well. I loved her and sought her from my youth. I desired to take her for my bride. I became enamored of her beauty. She glorifies her noble birth by living with God, and the Lord of all loves her. She is an initiate in the knowledge of God, an associate in his works.

And it goes on and on and on about these qualities of Wisdom and the Spirit that dwells within Wisdom, and in this book it even speaks about that spirit being the Holy Spirit. For example, it says in the ninth chapter: “He who has learned the counsel of the Lord, who has been given wisdom and is sent by the Holy Spirit from on high,” and that we were taught and were saved by wisdom. So wisdom is saving. Wisdom is illumining. Wisdom is empowering.

All these things of the Old Covenant about Wisdom, in the New Testament are clearly applied to Jesus the Christ, Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God, and [this is] undoubtedly in the New Testament, where you have that most specifically stated. Besides [this], you have lines in the New Testament that say, for example, that in Christ there dwells all of the fullness of knowledge and wisdom; you have those kinds of expressions in the New Testament. For example, in the Letter to the Colossians is written the following line; it says, “I want you to know how greatly I strive for you,” St. Paul writes, “that your hearts may be encouraged and knit together in love, have all riches of assured understanding, and the knowledge of God’s mystery of Christ in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge.” So wisdom and knowledge are always going together there.

You have that, and there are many other such texts, but the one that seems to have really taken preeminence in the Church’s understanding about Jesus as God’s Wisdom is in the opening chapters of the first letter of the Apostle Paul to the Corinthians, where St. Paul is writing in that very first chapter. He says that “Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel, and not with eloquent wisdom lest the Cross of Christ be emptied of its power” (I Corinthians 1:17). So St. Paul says that his teaching is not by human wisdom; it’s not by eloquence. It’s not like a rhetorician.

In the Letter to the Galatians, he will say this Gospel is not his; it’s God’s, it’s divine. And what he imparts from God, including the wisdom and knowledge of God, is of God, and it’s not human. The Cross, however, is the revelation of God and the revelation of all of God’s qualities, including Wisdom. So here in Corinthians, he continues:


For the Word of the Cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God, for it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will thwart.” Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has God not made foolish the wisdom of the world?

He sophia tou kosmou, the wisdom of this world, which in the letter of James will be called “earthly, psychic,” and even “demonic.”


For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom.

So St. Paul says that human beings gave up their wisdom. They violated their wisdom. They became fools. If there is any teaching of the Old Covenant, it is that human beings all became fools. By sinning against God and not following his commandments, everybody became foolish, even to the point of saying, “There is no God”: “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’ ” So here you have St. Paul saying, 


Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom. It pleased God, through the folly of what we preach, to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs, and Greeks seek wisdom.

And of course, “philosophia” means “the love of wisdom.” And so St. Paul will write, “We don’t follow the philosophia of this world; we follow the sophia of God, and that’s the real philosophia. The love of wisdom is the wisdom of God. God’s own divine wisdom, not the wisdom of men, or what is called “the wisdom of this world,” or what is called in James, “the wisdom from below.” We seek and follow the wisdom from on high, the wisdom that comes to us from God.

So the Apostle continues:


Jews demand signs; Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling-block to Jews…

“Skandalon” in Greek: “scandal.”


...and folly to Gentiles…

“Mōria”: that’s where you get the word “moronic.” Simply, “stupid,” to the philosophical Hellenes.


...but to those who are called…

And here you have it:


...both Jews and Greeks, Christ: God’s power and God’s wisdom.

We will speak about power. We’ll speak about Jesus as the power of God. But for now we want to see that it says “God’s wisdom.”

It has to be said that in this sentence there is no definite article. In English, both in the RSV and in the King James Version of the Bible, it is translated: “Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.” But in Greek it actually says, “Christ, God’s power and God’s wisdom—theou dynamis kai theou sophia”: God’s power and God’s wisdom.

So there you have it. Christ is God’s wisdom. He is the Wisdom of God. He is God’s Wisdom. And that would be the Christian conviction. So it [continues]:


The foolishness of God is wiser than men; the weakness of God is stronger than men.

And the same way that God’s power is revealed through weakness, so God’s wisdom will be revealed through the foolishness and the scandal of the Cross. That’s where you will really see the wisdom of God revealed: in Christ crucified. That’s what the Apostle Paul is going to say:


We preach Christ crucified: scandal to those who want power, and folly to those who want earthly wisdom and knowledge, but for those who are called, those who believe in Christ, Jews and Greeks, Christ: God’s power and God’s wisdom.

And then at the end of that very same first chapter, the Apostle continues to say:


God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong. God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.

And then he says:


He (God) is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made…

And there you have that same verb as in Proverbs 8:22, as St. Athanasius points out: God made Christ in human form, the same Wisdom that was with God before anything was created and the very instrument by which God creates all things, his own divine Wisdom. Then it says:


God is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness, and our sanctification and our redemption.

So here you have Jesus being called wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. And we’ll talk about those things later on.

But sticking now here with wisdom, the Apostle even then continues to say that his very message of Christ crucified is the expression of that very Wisdom. So he says:


I did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God in lofty words or human wisdom. I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

And then he says


My speech and my message were not implausible words of wisdom in a human way, but in the demonstration of the spirit and of power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

And then he continues, and this is very important:


Yet, among the mature, we do impart wisdom.

Now there you go. He’s blasting all this human wisdom, wisdom of this world, wisdom of the ungodly, the wisdom of the philosophers and so on. But then he continues:


Yet, among the mature (the believers, the chosen), we do impart wisdom, though it not a wisdom of this age, or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.

And here you have that expression “wisdom of this age,” and you also have the expression “wisdom of this world,” and those are two different words in Greek. “World” is “kosmos”; “age” is “aiōn.” So you have a wisdom of this age or this time, and a wisdom of this world or this place. But that’s not what Christians impart or profess. “We impart,” the Apostle continues writing, “a secret and hidden wisdom of God.” Secret and hidden wisdom of God. And it is that wisdom that is revealed in human form, in Jesus.


We impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God which God decreed before the ages for our glorification.

That’s what it says in the Proverbs: God fashioned this wisdom before the foundation of the world for the sake of our illumination and glorification. Then the Apostle continues:


None of the rulers of this age understood this wisdom, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory, but as it is written, “What no eye has seen nor ear heard nor the heart of man conceive, what God has prepared for those who love him,” God has revealed to us through the spirit.

And so the spirit, which is the Spirit of God, which, according to Scripture, is the spirit of Wisdom, he says it’s not the spirit of this world. He says we have received not the spirit of this world, but the spirit which is from God, which according to Scripture is the spirit of wisdom, the spirit of truth, the spirit of life, that we understand the gifts bestowed on us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom he insists again, but taught by the spirit, interpreting the spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit. And then he ends that whole chapter by saying simply:


We have the mind of Christ.

There is no doubt at all that in the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Wisdom of God is Jesus. The Wisdom of God in human form, personified, is the God-man Jesus. And everything that Jesus is in human form, we believe he is and possesses, so to speak, in divine form, before the Incarnation. So he is the eternal divine Wisdom of God who takes human form and reveals this divine Wisdom to us in human form. So he is the Wisdom of God.

In our prayers in the Church, we pray this way. The example that comes to mind most readily, most quickly, is that troparion from the Paschal service, where we say, “O Pascha of the Lord, O Pascha great and holy (O Passover of the Lord, O Passover great and holy), O Wisdom and Word of God and Power”—and sometimes it’s translated “O Wisdom and Word and Power of God”—“Jesus Christ. Allow us to commune with you more truly in the never-ending day of your kingdom.”

And it’s interesting that in the canon on Holy Thursday, the day of the Lord’s Mystical Supper in church, one whole ode of the canon is speaking to Jesus as Wisdom, and they see the Eucharist as the meal, the table that Wisdom has set. Because it says in the proverb writing that Wisdom has built herself a home, that Wisdom has set the table, that Wisdom becomes the food for the faithful. And so you have in the Holy Thursday service—I don’t have the text in front of me at the moment, but it’s very vivid in my mind about how Wisdom comes to the world, and Wisdom reveals itself, and Wisdom sets this meal, and when you participate in the Holy Eucharist, you are eating and drinking the Wisdom and the Word of God, that that Wisdom comes into you, that Wisdom is acting in you, that Wisdom that Jesus Christ himself is.

But certainly in the prayers of the Church… Just go to church and pay attention. You’ll see how Jesus is addressed as the Wisdom of God. And of course, in the liturgical services, every time we are calling out, “Wisdom! Let us attend! Wisdom! Let us attend!” we’re calling people to focus on Christ, to focus on the Gospel, to focus on his Person, which according to St. Paul, is the embodiment of the very Law of God in which wisdom is found. So Wisdom is enfleshed.

Here you have a very interesting thing in the ancient Christian tradition, the ancient faith, and that is that in Proverbs, when it says, “Wisdom has built a home for itself, for herself,” that Wisdom has made a temple, the Eastern Orthodox tradition has been bold enough to identify that with the Theotokos, with the Virgin Mary; that Wisdom tabernacles on earth and becomes flesh through Mary; the Word and Wisdom of God becomes flesh through Mary.

And so it’s an interesting thing, that Mary is often called, in the tradition, the temple of Wisdom or the throne of Wisdom. For example, one great patristics scholar, a French man, Louis Bouyer, wrote a book about Mary, and the title French was Le Trône de la Sagesse: The Seat of Wisdom. And that is a name for Mary in the Akathistos: the seat of Wisdom, the throne of Wisdom. In Latin it was called the sedes sapientiae, the seat of Wisdom, where Wisdom is enthroned. And in Christian tradition, you had churches, church buildings, dedicated to Christ as Wisdom. The most famous of which, of course, in the Orthodox Church, is the Church of Holy Wisdom in Constantinople.

The big, huge church that was in Constantinople as the cathedral was always called Holy Wisdom: Hagia Sophia. And then Justinian in the fifth century, built this magnificent building, the most amazing building, that still stands. Sadly, right now, it’s a museum. It was a mosque for a while after the Muslims took Constantinople. Now it’s a museum. You could go there and see it. It’s Holy Wisdom. But it was dedicated to Christ.

Sometimes you read in books that the Holy Wisdom cathedral in Constantinople was dedicated to “St. Sophia.” Sometimes it’s even called St. Sophia Church as if [for] some woman martyr, or something, named Sophia, but it doesn’t mean that; it means Christ. It means Christ.

Just like the church in Constantinople, called Hagia Eirēnē, is not the church of St. Irene. It’s the church of the Holy Peace. And the church, that little church that Gregory the Theologian was in when the Arians held the capitol and the imperial city was called Anastasia. That wasn’t St. Anastasia Church. It was the church of the Resurrection, also dedicated to Christ.

So you had the church of Wisdom, the temple of Wisdom, the temple of peace, the temple of resurrection, all dedicated to Christ. Sometimes if you even ask, “What would be the feastday for a church dedicated to the Holy Wisdom?” I believe that traditionally it would be the feast of Mid-Pentecost, where, between Pascha and Pentecost, the Church remembers Jesus as a child being in the Temple, debating with the scribes and the lawyers and the rabbis and showing forth himself as the incarnate Wisdom of God. And that would even be the icon of Jesus as a twelve-year-old child in the teacher’s seat surrounded by the teachers of the Law, imparting to them the Wisdom of God.

However, another interesting thing happened in Christian tradition. Certainly in the middle ages and in Russia, Slavic lands—Ukraine, Russia; Novgorod, Kiev—there were churches that were called Holy Wisdom Church, but their festival days were not days—for example, was not Mid-Pentecost—but were festivals of the Theotokos. For example, the church of Holy Wisdom in Novgorod, I believe, had its festal day on the Dormition of the Theotokos. And why was that? Well, it was because of the conviction that Mary was the tabernacle or the ark or the temple in which Wisdom had built its home. She was Wisdom’s home. And that led some Russian theologians, including those of the early 20th century, like Solovyov, Florensky, and Bulgakov, to see Mary as Wisdom in its created form, which would then be a body, a feminine type of image. So you would have Jesus as the God-man, as a divine sophia, the uncreated sophia, and then Mary kind of imaging the creaturely sophia as a deified Christian, as a person who became truly holy and all-holy. Therefore she herself becomes a kind of personification of an expression of Wisdom in human form.

However that may be, still the fact of the matter is—it is a fact—that in some of the churches in Slavic lands, temples, church buildings, that were dedicated and called the church of Holy Wisdom, their festival day was a feast of the Theotokos and not a feast of Christ. Then, of course, that led to some further reflections and meditations about what Bulgakov called “netvarnaya sophia” and “tvarnaya sophia”: the uncreated wisdom of God who is incarnate as Jesus Christ and then the creaturely wisdom, wisdom in created form as somehow hypostasized or personified in the Virgin Mary. But that’s a theological poetry. It’s theological reflection, meditation, and so on. And very beautiful in its own way.

But what we want to see right now, certainly, for certain, is that in classical, ancient Christianity, the Wisdom of God is Jesus Christ. The Wisdom of God is not some type of “God is feminine” wisdom or some feminine expression of deity. That would not be the classical tradition. Nor would the Wisdom of God be identified simply with the Virgin Mary or the Theotokos at all. The Wisdom of God is Jesus Christ.

Christ is Wisdom incarnate. He is the Word incarnate. He is Wisdom incarnate. He is the Son of God incarnate. He is God’s peace incarnate, God’s truth incarnate, God’s life incarnate, as we will see as we continue our meditations on the names and titles of Jesus. But for today and for right now, what we must see is that in ancient Christianity, according to the Scripture and the traditions of the Church in interpreting that Scripture, God’s Wisdom hypostasized, God’s Wisdom personified, God’s Wisdom revealed, God’s Wisdom shown to us in its ultimate, perfect form, the Wisdom that is given to us that we can understand and know and experience what that Wisdom of God really is, is Jesus Christ, because that Wisdom of God is not only what it is, it is who it is.

And Jesus Christ is the Wisdom of God. He is what that Wisdom is, and he is who that Wisdom is. Jesus Christ is God’s Wisdom. And that would be the deepest conviction of the Scriptures as understood in the ancient Christian faith in the Eastern Orthodox Church. Jesus Christ, God’s Wisdom, God’s power, God’s Logos, God’s truth, God’s Son, and being all those things and everything that he is, he expresses and actualizes and realizes for us the uncreated Wisdom of God himself and is given to us in his flesh and in his blood, in his human life on the Planet Earth. We confess our Lord Jesus Christ as truly and genuinely the Wisdom of God the Father himself.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This then goes to prove everything I have stated previously and before I posted any links at all.  That everything flows from the very wisdom of God---He and Jesus being the very essence of wisdom themselves.  Everything and all--the gifts--knowledge and every single spiritual attribute flows straight from the wisdom of God.

----------


## moostraks

> LOL.  *You apologize and then do the same thing in the same post.*  Fine.  We all have to grow.  But you are missing the bigger picture.  It's not just that you gave me the "wrong link".  It's also that the link you gave proved your error with regards to sola scriptura.  And that is this.  Even people who reject sola scriptura can, and do, come up with theological positions vastly different than yours.  That doesn't make your position wrong.  But it does mean you can't claim that your position *must* be right either. * I have no "mission" and no "accomplices".*  I simply call them as I see them.  It's interesting enough that in one of these threads heavenlyboy basically apologized to moosetracks for her running into Orthodox Christians like yourself.  That should tell you something.  Quit making this so personal.


I read the repeated insults and false allegations as well. I have been a bit startled by the accusations thrown at me when I was only trying to offer what had been my experiences and opinion that paralleled what you were discussing. It was never my intention to try and "catch' someone through the resources I was providing and figured it was a matter of miscommunication somewhere. If an EOC member can step up and explain what false notions we are accused of harboring I'd be curious because I still have not been able to comprehend how the one aspect can be the definitive descriptor.

----------


## Terry1

> I read the repeated insults and false allegations as well. I have been a bit startled by the accusations thrown at me when I was only trying to offer what had been my experiences and opinion that paralleled what you were discussing. It was never my intention to try and "catch' someone through the resources I was providing and figured it was a matter of miscommunication somewhere. If an EOC member can step up and explain what false notions we are accused of harboring I'd be curious because I still have not been able to comprehend how the one aspect can be the definitive descriptor.


Please spare me and everyone the drama who has an ounce of intellect and reading comprehension.  None of us are without guilt here--stop pretending to be an innocent bystander, a martyr and a victim of collateral damage here.  You certainly gave your share of insults and grief.  At least I can admit my guilt and part.   Jeez--I really need to get out of here.

----------


## jmdrake

TLDR

Ah the beautiful simplicity of scripture.

1 John 4:7,8 

_Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love._

_1 Corinthians 1:24 But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God._

Notice the conjunction "and" in 1 Cor 1:24.  That means that Christ became *both* those things.  And that get's to the heart of the matter more so than your long rambling cut and paste.  Note that when this whole argument began it was not because I denied the Holy Spirit giving us wisdom.  Quite the contrary.  I said the Holy Spirit gives us wisdom *and power*.  So do you have a quote that says Christ did not become anything other than Wisdom?  If not then your whole argument is moot.

Edit: I take that back.  I did read.  *Here is what you neglected to bold Terry!*

But here [what] we have to say very clearly is, according to Orthodox Christianity, there is no masculine and no feminine in God at all. God is God. God is not like anything in creation. God is beyond even being. You could even say that God is not being. As Gregory Palamas said, “If God is, I am not. If I am, God is not.” If we call God “being,” then I should not be called “being”; but if I am called “being,” like “human being,” then you can’t think of God as being. And, of course, in Scripture, *God and all that belongs to God—all his qualities, his wisdom, exactly, his love, his truth, his power, his glory, his splendor, his peace—they are all appropriate to God, and they are all not like anything else.* There’s nothing comparable to them in heaven [or] on earth.

Wisdom, *POWER*, love, truth, glory etc are all attributes of God.  Thank you once again for providing evidence to support my initial position.  I'm beginning to think the issue is not that I don't understand Orthodoxy, but rather you don't understand it as much as you think you do.




> http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts..._wisdom_of_god
> 
> 
> *Jesus - The Wisdom of God*
> *
> If Jesus is the Word of God, it follows that he is also the Wisdom of God. For where God's Word is, there is also his Wisdom.*
> 
> 
> Transcript 
> ...

----------


## jmdrake

> Please spare me and everyone the drama who has an ounce of intellect and reading comprehension.  None of us are without guilt here--stop pretending to be an innocent bystander, a martyr and a victim of collateral damage here.  You certainly gave your share of insults and grief.  At least I can admit my guilt and part.   Jeez--I really need to get out of here.


A qualified apology that contains a renewed insult is meaningless.  I had a client in a divorce once that said he really wanted to get back with his soon to be ex wife.  I suggested he could write a letter.  His letter basically said:

"I'm sorry for yelling at you after I had been drinking.  But you nag all the time and that's what drove me to it."

Needless to say she went through with the divorce.

----------


## Terry1

> TLDR
> 
> Ah the beautiful simplicity of scripture.
> 
> 1 John 4:7,8 
> 
> _Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
> 
> Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love._
> ...


Well--God has confirmed me through my church and faith once again, which I believe was more for me than you.  Which goes to prove all the more that God will protect and shield His own. 

It took me a day of searching to find this teaching which confirms what I said and through my own faith and church.  This is what you asked for was proof that my church supports everything I've told you.  I'm sure whatever I provide though will never be sufficient enough because this teaching of the Orthodox faith doesn't get any closer to supporting what I've said than if I'd wrote that transcript myself.  Praise be to the Lord---He watches over His own!  Thank you Lord!

----------


## jmdrake

> Well--God has confirmed me through my church and faith once again, which I believe was more for me than you.  Which goes to prove all the more that God will protect and shield His own. 
> 
> It took me a day of searching to find this teaching which confirms what I said and through my own faith and church.  This is what you asked for was proof that my church supports everything I've told you.  I'm sure whatever I provide though will never be sufficient enough because this teaching of the Orthodox faith doesn't get any closer to supporting what I've said than if I'd wrote that transcript myself.  Praise be to the Lord---He watches over His own!  Thank you Lord!


Good.  I'm glad you feel confirmed.  I'm not sure in what exactly.  The teaching you provided clearly states that Christ is *more* than just wisdom.  Again from your latest source:

_But here [what] we have to say very clearly is, according to Orthodox Christianity, there is no masculine and no feminine in God at all. God is God. God is not like anything in creation. God is beyond even being. You could even say that God is not being. As Gregory Palamas said, “If God is, I am not. If I am, God is not.” If we call God “being,” then I should not be called “being”; but if I am called “being,” like “human being,” then you can’t think of God as being. And, of course, in Scripture, God and all that belongs to God—all his qualities, his wisdom, exactly, his love, his truth, his power, his glory, his splendor, his peace—they are all appropriate to God, and they are all not like anything else. There’s nothing comparable to them in heaven [or] on earth._

According to your church's teachings God's qualities include His wisdom, His love, His truth, His *power*, His glory, His splendor, His peace.  That's what I've been saying all along.

----------


## Terry1

> Good.  I'm glad you feel confirmed.  I'm not sure in what exactly.  The teaching you provided clearly states that Christ is *more* than just wisdom.  Again from your latest source:
> 
> _But here [what] we have to say very clearly is, according to Orthodox Christianity, there is no masculine and no feminine in God at all. God is God. God is not like anything in creation. God is beyond even being. You could even say that God is not being. As Gregory Palamas said, “If God is, I am not. If I am, God is not.” If we call God “being,” then I should not be called “being”; but if I am called “being,” like “human being,” then you can’t think of God as being. And, of course, in Scripture, God and all that belongs to God—all his qualities, his wisdom, exactly, his love, his truth, his power, his glory, his splendor, his peace—they are all appropriate to God, and they are all not like anything else. There’s nothing comparable to them in heaven [or] on earth._
> 
> According to your church's teachings God's qualities include His wisdom, His love, His truth, His *power*, His glory, His splendor, His peace.  That's what I've been saying all along.


Read the teaching again then--it *clearly tells you that *everything flows from what and who He is--which is wisdom and that there is nothing above wisdom itself.  Every single thing that you mention claiming that He's "more than wisdom" is incorrect.  As I've asked you before--how can He possibly be "more" than what He already is.  This doesn't seem to resonate with you because you're more bent on being right than you are seeking the actual truth.

Read it again.





> Christ is Wisdom incarnate. He is the Word incarnate. He is Wisdom incarnate. He is the Son of God incarnate. He is God’s peace incarnate, God’s truth incarnate, God’s life incarnate, as we will see as we continue our meditations on the names and titles of Jesus. But for today and for right now, what we must see is that in ancient Christianity, according to the Scripture and the traditions of the Church in interpreting that Scripture, God’s Wisdom hypostasized, God’s Wisdom personified, God’s Wisdom revealed, God’s Wisdom shown to us in its ultimate, perfect form, the Wisdom that is given to us that we can understand and know and experience what that Wisdom of God really is, is Jesus Christ, because that Wisdom of God is not only what it is, it is who it is.
> 
>  And Jesus Christ is the Wisdom of God. He is what that Wisdom is, and he is who that Wisdom is. Jesus Christ is God’s Wisdom. And that would be the deepest conviction of the Scriptures as understood in the ancient Christian faith in the Eastern Orthodox Church. Jesus Christ, *God’s Wisdom, God’s power, God’s Logos, God’s truth, God’s Son, and being all those things and everything that he is, he expresses and actualizes and realizes for us the uncreated Wisdom of God himself and is given to us in his flesh and in his blood, in his human life on the Planet Earth. We confess our Lord Jesus Christ as truly and genuinely the Wisdom of God the Father himself*.

----------


## moostraks

> I read the repeated insults and false allegations as well. I have been a bit startled by the accusations thrown at me when I was only trying to offer what had been my experiences and opinion that paralleled what you were discussing. It was never my intention to try and "catch' someone through the resources I was providing and figured it was a matter of miscommunication somewhere. If an EOC member can step up and explain what false notions we are accused of harboring I'd be curious because I still have not been able to comprehend how the one aspect can be the definitive descriptor.





> Please spare me and everyone the drama who has an ounce of intellect and reading comprehension.  None of us are without guilt here--stop pretending to be an innocent bystander, a martyr and a victim of collateral damage here.  You certainly gave your share of insults and grief.  At least I can admit my guilt and part.   Jeez--I really need to get out of here.





> A qualified apology that contains a renewed insult is meaningless.  I had a client in a divorce once that said he really wanted to get back with his soon to be ex wife.  I suggested he could write a letter.  His letter basically said:
> 
> "I'm sorry for yelling at you after I had been drinking.  But you nag all the time and that's what drove me to it."
> 
> Needless to say she went through with the divorce.


Indeed on the qualified apology. I am not going to apologize to someone for something I did not do because someone attributes false motives or acts on my part. I tried to clarify several times that I was not attempting to do as I have been accused of and get spit at some more. I am sorry she _believes_ I was attacking her character but it was not what I was doing. I was quite puzzled for some time as to the fact she was referring to my posts in this thread as such and thought maybe she had been harboring some grudge about another thread and was venting about it now. 

Been trying to make heads or tails of this response:




> Too late to close the barn door now--that horse has already bolted.  Don't blame me because you won't stop--I've begged you to stop long before now, but you're like the ever-ready bunny.  I guess I just won't reply you any more until you get this out of your system.  Hope you feel better soon.



to this:




> Feel better now after trying to humiliate me with this? It isn't working but sure is showing what level you will stoop to with folks. Bark up another tree and maybe you can find the zinger you are looking for so you can make me lash out?


And the only way this makes sense is as a threat of what happens when you disagree with her and that all this ridiculousness was because I would not stop questioning her position. And I'm the one who needs to feel better, from what?

----------


## Terry1

> http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts..._wisdom_of_god
> 
> 
> *Jesus - The Wisdom of God*
> *
> If Jesus is the Word of God, it follows that he is also the Wisdom of God. For where God's Word is, there is also his Wisdom.*
> 
> 
> Transcript 
> ...


Bump--

----------


## jmdrake

> Read the teaching again then--it *clearly tells you that *everything flows from what and who He is--which is wisdom and that there is nothing above wisdom itself.  Every single thing that you mention claiming that He's "more than wisdom" is incorrect.  As I've asked you before--how can He possibly be "more" than what He already is.  This doesn't seem to resonate with you because you're more bent on being right than you are seeking the actual truth.
> 
> Read it again.


Sorry but no.  I'm not going to read through that entire treatise again just to see if there's something in there to support your position.  I did a quick Ctrl-F to find the word "flow" in it, and it's not there except for your commentary.  The part I highlighted refutes your claim since it lists wisdom as one of many attributes of God.  Highlight what you think supports your claim, because what you have already highlighted *does not sufficiently support it* and I'll read your highlight.  And if you just highlight the entire document, I won't read it.

One thing I have learned from this discussion though.  It has strengthened my faith in sola scriptura.

----------


## Terry1

> Sorry but no.  I'm not going to read through that entire treatise again just to see if there's something in there to support your position.  I did a quick Ctrl-F to find the word "flow" in it, and it's not there except for your commentary.  The part I highlighted refutes your claim since it lists wisdom as one of many attributes of God.  Highlight what you think supports your claim, because what you have already highlighted *does not sufficiently support it* and I'll read your highlight.  And if you just highlight the entire document, I won't read it.


LOL

----------


## moostraks

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> This then goes to prove everything I have stated previously and before I posted any links at all.  That everything flows from the very wisdom of God---He and Jesus being the very essence of wisdom themselves.  Everything and all--the gifts--knowledge and every single spiritual attribute flows straight from the wisdom of God.


God Is Love

      7Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

      15Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19We love, because He first loved us. 20If someone says, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

Any EOC members that can tackle the quotes I posted previously and can help me understand why Love is to be replaced with the terms wisdom and knowledge, would be interested in an actual answer to the questions I put forth. TIA...

----------


## Terry1

> God Is Love
> 
>       7Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
> 
>       15Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19We love, because He first loved us. 20If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.
> 
> Any EOC members that can tackle the quotes I posted previously and can help me understand why Love is to be replaced with the terms wisdom and knowledge, would be interested in an actual answer to the questions I put forth. TIA...


We have the mind of Christ.

From my quote and link:
"There is no doubt at all that in the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Wisdom of God is Jesus. The Wisdom of God in human form, personified, is the God-man Jesus. And everything that Jesus is in human form, we believe he is and possesses, so to speak, in divine form, before the Incarnation. So he is the eternal divine Wisdom of God who takes human form and reveals this divine Wisdom to us in human form. So he is the Wisdom of God.

 In our prayers in the Church, we pray this way. The example that comes to mind most readily, most quickly, is that troparion from the Paschal service, where we say, “O Pascha of the Lord, O Pascha great and holy (O Passover of the Lord, O Passover great and holy), O Wisdom and Word of God and Power”—and sometimes it’s translated “O Wisdom and Word and Power of God”—“Jesus Christ. Allow us to commune with you more truly in the never-ending day of your kingdom.”

And it’s interesting that in the canon on Holy Thursday, the day of the Lord’s Mystical Supper in church, one whole ode of the canon is speaking to Jesus as Wisdom, and they see the Eucharist as the meal, the table that Wisdom has set. Because it says in the proverb writing that Wisdom has built herself a home, that Wisdom has set the table, that Wisdom becomes the food for the faithful. And so you have in the Holy Thursday service—I don’t have the text in front of me at the moment, but it’s very vivid in my mind about how Wisdom comes to the world, and Wisdom reveals itself, and Wisdom sets this meal, and when you participate in the Holy Eucharist, you are eating and drinking the Wisdom and the Word of God, that that Wisdom comes into you, that Wisdom is acting in you, that Wisdom that Jesus Christ himself is."

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## jmdrake

> LOL


I will have to remember this debate tactic.  Post a sufficiently long cut and paste, at the end of it add my own comment that says "And this is why I believe X", when someone says "But I read it and it doesn't support X.  In fact here's where it supports Y."  I will just reply "Read it again!  You clearly didn't understand it."  

Hmmmm....should I cut and paste War and Peace or is that too long?

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## RJB

> If an EOC member can step up and explain what false notions we are accused of harboring I'd be curious because I still have not been able to comprehend how the one aspect can be the definitive descriptor.


I'll just peek in long enough to say, "I'm staying out of this madhouse."

See ya'll in calmer threads

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## Terry1

> I'll just peek in long enough to say, "I'm staying out of this madhouse."
> 
> See ya'll in calmer threads


You're a strong man RJB--

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## moostraks

> Read the teaching again then--it *clearly tells you that *everything flows from what and who He is--which is wisdom and that there is nothing above wisdom itself.  Every single thing that you mention claiming that He's "more than wisdom" is incorrect.  As I've asked you before--how can He possibly be "more" than what He already is.  This doesn't seem to resonate with you because you're more bent on being right than you are seeking the actual truth.
> 
> Read it again.


Gnosticism?? http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religio...Gnosticism.htm




> Gnostics believed that in order to acquire salvation one must possess a certain knowledge, or gnosis, which must be delivered to a person by a messenger of light. However, to receive this knowledge, one must be trying to reach beyond the evil, dark, material, physical earth and body toward that of the good, light, immaterial, and spiritual worlds. The indwelling spark must be awakened from its terrestrial slumber by the saving knowledge that comes "from without." 
> 
> Early Christians seeking to understand Jesus as savior within the context of their Jewish origins searched the Hebrew Scriptures for related figures. Jesus did not completely match the traditional Jewish conception of the messiah who was to be a human king who would establish a new reign of justice and peace in Israel. Jesus actually seemed to have much more in common with Sophia who was part divine and part human, sent by God to change society. And, as the authors of Wisdom's Feast argue, both Christ and Sophia ultimately failed to completely transform society: Sophia's cries to humanity were in vain and Jesus was crucified. Thus, early Christians adopted Sophia as a model for their portrayals of Christ while continuing to refer to him as the messiah...
> 
> Eventually Sophia was completely fused with Christ. Wisdom became Logos, and explicit associations between Sophia and Jesus disappeared from Christianity. Many Christian feminists describe her disappearance in the psychological language of repression. In her essay, "Wisdom Was Made Flesh," Elizabeth Johnson argues that the feminine Wisdom was replaced by the masculine Logos "as it became unseemly, given the developing patriarchal tendencies in the church, to interpret the male Jesus with a female symbol of God" (Johnson 105). The authors of Wisdom's Feast offer a very different theory. They suggest that in order to recognize Jesus as equal to God the Father, all explicit associations between Jesus and the weaker Sophia had to be abandoned.
> 
> Wisdom's Feast also traces Sophia's disappearance to the tensions at this time between the Gnostics and the mainstream Christians. The Gnostics tended to downplay Jesus' humanity, and many rejected the notion that he was human. They adopted the association between Jesus and Sophia in order to de-emphasize Christ's bodily pain and suffering and focus more on the wisdom he imparted. Mainstream Christians, eager to separate themselves from the Gnostics, thus avoided reference to Sophia.

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## moostraks

> I'll just peek in long enough to say, "I'm staying out of this madhouse."
> 
> See ya'll in calmer threads


 I don't blame you but I sincerely want an answer to the questions from someone who is an EOC member if possible.

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## RJB

> I don't blame you but I sincerely want an answer to the questions from someone who is an EOC member if possible.


I'll PM you.

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## Terry1

> Gnosticism?? http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religio...Gnosticism.htm


What you're attempting to do is make current orthodox teaching contradict and argue with itself--when clearly this isn't the position the writer is taking and does not support the practice of "Sophiology", but rather refers to it as "theological poetry" instead.  This is either you misunderstanding what the author is saying or it could be simply intellectual dishonesty on your part.  It's either one or the other. 

Here's what the author is actually saying:

 "However that may be, still the fact of the matter is—it is a fact—that in some of the churches in Slavic lands, temples, church buildings, that were dedicated and called the church of Holy Wisdom, their festival day was a feast of the Theotokos and not a feast of Christ. Then, of course, that led to some further reflections and meditations about what Bulgakov called “netvarnaya sophia” and “tvarnaya sophia”: the uncreated wisdom of God who is incarnate as Jesus Christ and then the creaturely wisdom, wisdom in created form as somehow hypostasized or personified in the Virgin Mary. But that’s a theological poetry. It’s theological reflection, meditation, and so on. And very beautiful in its own way.

 But what we want to see right now, certainly, for certain, is that in classical, ancient Christianity, the Wisdom of God is Jesus Christ. *The Wisdom of God is not some type of “God is feminine” wisdom or some feminine expression of deity. That would not be the classical tradition. Nor would the Wisdom of God be identified simply with the Virgin Mary or the Theotokos at all. The Wisdom of God is Jesus Christ."
*

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## moostraks

> What you're attempting to do is make current orthodox teaching contradict and argue with itself--when clearly this isn't the position the writer is taking and does not support the practice of "Sophiology", but rather refers to it as "theological poetry" instead.  This is either you misunderstanding what the author is saying or it could be simply intellectual dishonesty on your part.  It's either one or the other. 
> 
> Here's what the author is actually saying:
> 
>  "However that may be, still the fact of the matter isit is a factthat in some of the churches in Slavic lands, temples, church buildings, that were dedicated and called the church of Holy Wisdom, their festival day was a feast of the Theotokos and not a feast of Christ. Then, of course, that led to some further reflections and meditations about what Bulgakov called netvarnaya sophia and tvarnaya sophia: the uncreated wisdom of God who is incarnate as Jesus Christ and then the creaturely wisdom, wisdom in created form as somehow hypostasized or personified in the Virgin Mary. But thats a theological poetry. Its theological reflection, meditation, and so on. And very beautiful in its own way.
> 
>  But what we want to see right now, certainly, for certain, is that in classical, ancient Christianity, the Wisdom of God is Jesus Christ. *The Wisdom of God is not some type of God is feminine wisdom or some feminine expression of deity. That would not be the classical tradition. Nor would the Wisdom of God be identified simply with the Virgin Mary or the Theotokos at all. The Wisdom of God is Jesus Christ."
> *


Have not sat and read through your novel and am interested in a live human EOC member who would not forward me to a novel but answer how it relates to my questions specifically and why Love is to be discarded for the terms wisdom and knowledge. Sounds like Gnosticism, henceforth why I quoted the link with its explanation of how the affinity for the Sophia was related. 

Specifically, seeing what seems to be the repetitive responses without addressing the conflict, this statement:




> that in order to acquire salvation one must possess a certain knowledge, or gnosis, which must be delivered to a person by a messenger of light. However, to receive this knowledge, one must be trying to reach beyond the evil, dark, material, physical earth and body toward that of the good, light, immaterial, and spiritual worlds. The indwelling spark must be awakened from its terrestrial slumber by the saving knowledge that comes "from without."


To which I would say, well if that's what floats your boat to define the unknowable,but has not been my experience on my path. I would not use wisdom to define Him but would use Love and am failing to see why it should be necessary to change the term other than to change the focus of the path?

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## Terry1

> Have not sat and read through your novel and am interested in a live human EOC member who would not forward me to a novel but answer how it relates to my questions specifically and why Love is to be discarded for the terms wisdom and knowledge. Sounds like Gnosticism, henceforth why I quoted the link with its explanation of how the affinity for the Sophia was related.


If you admit that you haven't read the "novel" or teaching--then why in the world would you even attempt to dispute it with something that was in direct contradiction to that same teaching and what the author was actually saying?  That seems rather irrational and illogical.




> Specifically, seeing what seems to be the repetitive responses without addressing the conflict, this statement:
> 
> To which I would say, well if that's what floats your boat to define the unknowable,but has not been my experience on my path. I would not use wisdom to define Him but would use Love and am failing to see why it should be necessary to change the term other than to change the focus of the path?


Again--without reading the teaching, you continue on this path to dispute what you admit to not having even read.  You're not making sense here.

Adding here--how can anyone define and understand what true spiritual love is and consists of without the wisdom of the Lord and God?  All things flow directly from Christ--who is the embodiment of wisdom in us that allows us to understand every single spiritual gift that flows from that same wisdom.  I have stated this from the very beginning.  

In the very same teaching that I've provided--states that there is nothing above the wisdom of God and Jesus Christ because they are the very embodiment of that same wisdom.  Everything flows from Christ--who is wisdom.

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## moostraks

> I'll PM you.


Thank you...

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## moostraks

> If you admit that you haven't read the "novel" or teaching--then why in the world would you even attempt to dispute it with something that was in direct contradiction to that same teaching and what the author was actually saying?  That seems rather irrational and illogical.
> 
> 
> 
> Again--without reading the teaching, you continue on this path to dispute what you admit to not having even read.  You're not making sense here.


No, I am done with being ridiculed and humiliated and I asked for responses from those who are EOC members to clarify what I have asked specifically in regards to the verses and quotes brought up in this thread. Your links have been more of a goose chase then enlightening and that one is pretty long to waste the energy to try and decipher how to apply them to the specifics that were put forward. I posted a 15 minute sermon the other day for you which you just glossed over and ignored how it supported the position I have been claiming and yet you continue to demand others follow links which so far have been dead ends. 

Slap a pretty face on it all you like but what I have read so far seems to be rewriting Scripture so that He is not Love but wisdom and by wisdom all else is defined, which gives more respect to the energies supposedly expended by the believer for good works because of the rational nature of the arrangement rather than the intuitive relationship as put forth by the GOC link I previously provided.

I don't want to offend Gnostics but if one wants to step up to the plate and put forth their opinion it might clarify what I have read and might be misunderstanding of the posted link regarding Gnosticism especially in regards to Sophia.

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## Terry1

> No, I am done with being ridiculed and humiliated and I asked for responses from those who are EOC members to clarify what I have asked specifically in regards to the verses and quotes brought up in this thread. Your links have been more of a goose chase then enlightening and that one is pretty long to waste the energy to try and decipher how to apply them to the specifics that were put forward. I posted a 15 minute sermon the other day for you which you just glossed over and ignored how it supported the position I have been claiming and yet you continue to demand others follow links which so far have been dead ends. 
> 
> Slap a pretty face on it all you like but what I have read so far seems to be rewriting Scripture so that He is not Love but wisdom and by wisdom all else is defined, which gives more respect to the energies supposedly expended by the believer for good works because of the rational nature of the arrangement rather than the intuitive relationship as put forth by the GOC link I previously provided.
> 
> I don't want to offend Gnostics but if one wants to step up to the plate and put forth their opinion it might clarify what I have read and might be misunderstanding of the posted link regarding Gnosticism especially in regards to Sophia.


No one is trying to humiliate you moos, this is all in your own mind.  What I'm attempting to do here is reveal to you in that teaching that you refuse to read is what I have been trying to say as well.

If you were lest bent on attempting to create contradictions where they don't exist and more bent on trying to understand what that teaching is actually saying you might learn something.

That teaching I posted has absolutely nothing to do with Sophiology and the author goes on to explain the difference as well--if you'd read it--you might understand without blindly attacking the teaching without first reading it.  

The word "Sophia" simply means "wisdom" in the Greek.  Just because that word is used doesn't mean that the practice of "sophiology" is being promoted and the difference is explained in that same teaching--if you'll actually read it so you'll understand what that difference is.  I'm learning here as much as anyone, because I had no idea that the practice of sophiology even existed before this discussion.

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## jmdrake

> No one is trying to humiliate you moos, this is all in your own mind.  What I'm attempting to do here is reveal to you in that teaching that you refuse to read is what I have been trying to say as well.
> 
> If you were lest bent on attempting to create contradictions where they don't exist and more bent on trying to understand what that teaching is actually saying you might learn something.
> 
> That teaching I posted has absolutely nothing to do with Sophiology and the author goes on to explain the difference as well--if you'd read it--you might understand without blindly attacking the teaching without first reading it.  
> 
> The word "Sophia" simply means "wisdom" in the Greek.  Just because that word is used doesn't mean that the practice of "sophiology" is being promoted and the difference is explained in that same teaching--if you'll actually read it so you'll understand what that difference is.  I'm learning here as much as anyone, because I had no idea that the practice of sophiology even existed before this discussion.


 Pointing out contradictions != "trying to create contradictions".

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## jmdrake

> What you're attempting to do is make current orthodox teaching contradict and argue with itself--when clearly this isn't the position the writer is taking and does not support the practice of "Sophiology", but rather refers to it as "theological poetry" instead.  This is either you misunderstanding what the author is saying or it could be simply intellectual dishonesty on your part.  It's either one or the other. 
> 
> Here's what the author is actually saying:
> 
>  "However that may be, still the fact of the matter is—it is a fact—that in some of the churches in Slavic lands, temples, church buildings, that were dedicated and called the church of Holy Wisdom, their festival day was a feast of the Theotokos and not a feast of Christ. Then, of course, that led to some further reflections and meditations about what Bulgakov called “netvarnaya sophia” and “tvarnaya sophia”: the uncreated wisdom of God who is incarnate as Jesus Christ and then the creaturely wisdom, wisdom in created form as somehow hypostasized or personified in the Virgin Mary. But that’s a theological poetry. It’s theological reflection, meditation, and so on. And very beautiful in its own way.
> 
>  But what we want to see right now, certainly, for certain, is that in classical, ancient Christianity, the Wisdom of God is Jesus Christ. *The Wisdom of God is not some type of “God is feminine” wisdom or some feminine expression of deity. That would not be the classical tradition. Nor would the Wisdom of God be identified simply with the Virgin Mary or the Theotokos at all. The Wisdom of God is Jesus Christ."
> *


And so is the power of God.  Jesus is the personification of all God's attributes.

_But here [what] we have to say very clearly is, according to Orthodox Christianity, there is no masculine and no feminine in God at all. God is God. God is not like anything in creation. God is beyond even being. You could even say that God is not being. As Gregory Palamas said, “If God is, I am not. If I am, God is not.” If we call God “being,” then I should not be called “being”; but if I am called “being,” like “human being,” then you can’t think of God as being. And, of course, in Scripture, God and all that belongs to God—all his qualities, his wisdom, exactly, his love, his truth, his power, his glory, his splendor, his peace—they are all appropriate to God, and they are all not like anything else. There’s nothing comparable to them in heaven [or] on earth._

No where in your source do you find any support for you claim that all the other attributes merely "flow from Wisdom".  Jesus is the Wisdom of God.  Jesus is the Power of God.

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## moostraks

> No one is trying to humiliate you moos, this is all in your own mind.





> People who claim to have studied the word of God, yet are unaware that key verses exist to annihilate their false beliefs.  And this is how the people perish because they have not sought out the word of God with the same emotional zealousness they perform in attempts to convince others that they have.
> 
> Some people like to play the game of being a Christian, while others actually live it in reality.





> "Persecution complex"??  I don't believe so moos--I believe the truth and evidence was in your post.  You seem to be devolving here as well by continuing in this charade.  Why don't you simply---*stop* for your own sake.





> It seems to me that rather than others acting superior to you, that you have quite an inferior complex.  Did you ever think of it in those terms...





> Originally Posted by moostraks
> 
> How spiritually enlightened of you to say I have an inferiority complex.
> 
> 
> Well--if the shoe fits.





> Originally Posted by moostraks
> 
> Feel better now after trying to humiliate me with this? It isn't working but sure is showing what level you will stoop to with folks. Bark up another tree and maybe you can find the zinger you are looking for so you can make me lash out?
> 
> 
> Too late to close the barn door now--that horse has already bolted.  Don't blame me because you won't stop--I've begged you to stop long before now, but you're like the ever-ready bunny.  I guess I just won't reply you any more until you get this out of your system.  Hope you feel better soon.





> You're absolutely right moos--I think everyone should follow your example instead of mine.  After all--I could never show the compassion and restraint you do.  Well done!





> This is either you misunderstanding what the author is saying or it could be simply intellectual dishonesty on your part.


yeah, sure, it is all in my head...

I Corinthians 13: 1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

I knew of Sophia/Wisdom, prior to your argument brought forward here, through anthroposophy, but only fleetingly as wisdom personified and as related to the Holy Spirit. Never looked any further into the matter as it wasn't my thing. IMO you have elevated an aspect to take more prominence than I believe is rightfully warranted and dismissed other equally reasonable responses based on your contempt for others not accepting your beliefs at face value and sources which seem to contradict other EOC sources.  You stance comes across very arrogantly as though you have a superior intellect you have been granted and are working through your own efforts to do good works and I am beginning to understand why others have been so aggressively condemning your posts as I have not paid particular attention to the degree to which you are elevating personal wisdom (through the Spirit) and ignoring the submit one's will portion. 

You cannot insult people repetitively into agreement with your position. I get your frustration with sola scriptura but even I (who is willing to consider a variety of sources) think the argument, while creative, is not a typical position and has inherent flaws because of what the believer loses as their focus for meditating upon. If a EOC member would like to clarify that this is a standard policy to not see God as Love from which wisdom is given but instead Wisdom from which love is found, then I would appreciate seeing some historical documentation and reasonable explanation on why this is not prevalent in the text of the Bible.

----------

