# Lifestyles & Discussion > Peace Through Religion >  Calvinist Testimony Video

## Sola_Fide

I don't agree with the label "Calvinist", but I thought this video was well put together. These are some Reformed testimonies. *My favorite is the gentleman in the Ron Paul for President shirt @ 33:03. Watch that one:*

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## Terry1

Well, first off just listening to the first guy here in the black shirt is that he said---"salvation is the direct result of grace".  That's not so, the direct result of salvation is "grace through faith", not just grace.  Because even as a believer stumbles and loses faith for a time, grace does sustain them, but not indefinitely.  God is patient, He gives us "space to repent" this is the time that we're stumbling in faith, but grace still sustains during that space and time until we return to faith.  At some point, as John 15:1 tells us, if that believer remains in the state of unbelief or loss of faith for too long, depending on God and only He knows when a believer won't return, they are then "cut off" and that branch is burned and removed from the true Vine/Jesus forever.

This is the condition that our salvation is based upon and why God said that we are saved "by grace and only---through faith".  We are not saved by grace alone or by faith alone.  They must work in harmony and together otherwise neither is of any effect in a believer and they fall from grace because they have fallen from faith.  So loss of faith is the reason a believer is cut off and not because of grace alone.  

I haven't listened to the others yet, but imagine their testimonies are much the same as the first.

The fact that God is patient for a time and gives us space and time to repent before He cuts off the believers is evident in His warning to the seven churches in Revelation here:

*Message to the Church in Thyatira*

Revelation 2:

19I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. *21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.*

Salvation is conditional upon remaining and abiding in Christ.  If a believer falls away by doing opposite Gods instructions for too long, they are "cut off" from the true Vine/Jesus.  God's patience has run out because He knows they will not return or repent, hence eternal death is their reward.

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## mosquitobite

Nice to post OTHER PEOPLE'S testimony Sola.  

Why are you afraid to share YOURS?

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## Sola_Fide

> Nice to post OTHER PEOPLE'S testimony Sola.  
> 
> Why are you afraid to share YOURS?


I've already posted it.   And why should I talk about me anyway?  Why not talk about the Lord?

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## mosquitobite

> And why should I talk about me anyway?


First, as I said in the testimony thread: Revelation 12.
Acts 14:3
John 21:24





> Why not talk about the Lord?


What is the Bible itself if it is not a testimony of the people of the Lord?

Paul's letters are testimony.

Every believer that shares in the power of God, with the Holy Spirit working in their life, has something to testify.

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## erowe1

I don't like the "Calvinist" label either. But the thread title reminded me of Cornelius Van Til's testimony, which he gives in his "Why I Believe in God."

I haven't read it in years, but I recall finding it very edifying when I did.
http://www.reformed.org/apologetics/...lieve_cvt.html

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## Sola_Fide

> First, as I said in the testimony thread: Revelation 12.
> Acts 14:3
> John 21:24
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is the Bible itself if it is not a testimony of the people of the Lord?
> 
> ...



I don't believe that testifying necessarily involves talking about yourself.

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## Sola_Fide

> Well, first off just listening to the first guy here in the black shirt is that he said---"salvation is the direct result of grace".  That's not so, the direct result of salvation is "grace through faith", not just grace.


Terry1 says: we are not saved by grace alone.

Paul says:



> Ephesians 2:4-5, 8-9 NASB
> 
> But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ *(by grace you have been saved)...
> 
> ...For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;* not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


A Christian is saved by grace alone.  His works and his faith are gifts that does not come "from yourselves".

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## Terry1

> Terry1 says: we are not saved by grace alone.
> 
> Paul says:
> 
> 
> A Christian is saved by grace alone.  His works and his faith are gifts that does not come "from yourselves".


If God said Himself that He was going to judge you by your works, just what do you think they are then?  Do you think that these works that God is going to judge you by are something that magically happens just because of grace alone and by itself?  Do you think He'd force you to do something He'd then condemn you for?

What is God telling you here then?

Revelation 20:  

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.  12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.  13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.  14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d]  15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Do you not realize that everything you say and do is being written in the Books.  These "works" that we'll be judged by are not dead works, they are "works of faith" that Paul TELLS you TO DO.  If they were dead works, do you think that Paul, James, John, Hebrews and all the way through Revelation would be telling you, instructing you to do these things that you will be judged by.  What?  Do you just ignore most of the word of God and cherry pick the scriptures that seem to support what you'd rather believe?  
Which then begs the question---who in their right mind would want to believe that God forces them to choose something He's going to ultimately condemn them for?  God only does that with those who've been turned over to reprobate minds and are lost because they chose opposite God and God knew their hearts.  That's why they were turned over to reprobates.  He knew they wouldn't return and it wasn't because they weren't given a choice, because they were given a choice and they chose what ultimately condemned them---not God.

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## Sola_Fide

> If God said Himself that He was going to judge you by your works, just what do you think they are then?  Do you think that these works that God is going to judge you by are something that magically happens just because of grace alone and by itself?  Do you think He'd force you to do something He'd then condemn you for?
> 
> What is God telling you here then?
> 
> Revelation 20:  
> 
> 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.  12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.  13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.  14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d]  15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
> 
> Do you not realize that everything you say and do is being written in the Books.  These "works" that we'll be judged by are not dead works, they are "works of faith" that Paul TELLS you TO DO.  If they were dead works, do you think that Paul, James, John, Hebrews and all the way through Revelation would be telling you, instructing you to do these things that you will be judged by.  What?  Do you just ignore most of the word of God and cherry pick the scriptures that seem to support what you'd rather believe?  
> Which then begs the question---who in their right mind would want to believe that God forces them to choose something He's going to ultimately condemn them for?  God only does that with those who've been turned over to reprobate minds and are lost because they chose opposite God and God knew their hearts.  That's why they were turned over to reprobates.  He knew they wouldn't return and it wasn't because they weren't given a choice, because they were given a choice and they chose what ultimately condemned them---not God.


Being judged "by your works" is a VERY BAD thing in the Bible.   Romans chapter 1-3 describes how terrible it is to be judged by your works.  Galatians 3 and 5 do too.

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## Terry1

> Being judged "by your works" is a VERY BAD thing in the Bible.   Romans chapter 1-3 describes how terrible it is to be judged by your works.  Galatians 3 and 5 do too.


I like some others in here have almost given up on you.  You will never understand the difference between a dead work of the Old Law/Mosaic vs "the perfect law of God, His ten commandments that are written upon our hearts. Any work we do now is because we hear and do these things in obedience to the Holy Spirit. This is our work of faith.
This meaning, you either can not grasp or understand for some reason no matter how many different ways it's explained to you.  At this point, I can only assume that maybe you are not meant to know and God may indeed have a good reason for that too.  Consider the dust shaken off here.  I'm done.

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## eduardo89

> Terry1 says: we are not saved by grace alone.
> 
> Paul says:
> 
> A Christian is saved by grace alone.  His works and his faith are gifts that does not come "from yourselves".


I agree with all this. We are saved by grace alone.

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## Sola_Fide

> I agree with all this. We are saved by grace alone.


Can one lose their justification Eduardo?   If so, how does one gain their justification back?

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## eduardo89

> Can one lose their justification Eduardo?   If so, how does one gain their justification back?


Justification is not a one time event.

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## Brett85

> Justification is not a one time event.


Then how exactly can you say that we're saved by grace alone?

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## eduardo89

> Then how exactly can you say that we're saved by grace alone?


Because we are not saved by anything we do on our own. It is only by the grace of the Cross that we are saved.

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## Sola_Fide

> I like some others in here have almost given up on you.  You will never understand the difference between a dead work of the Old Law/Mosaic vs "the perfect law of God, His ten commandments that are written upon our hearts. Any work we do now is because we hear and do these things in obedience to the Holy Spirit. This is our work of faith.
> This meaning, you either can not grasp or understand for some reason no matter how many different ways it's explained to you.  At this point, I can only assume that maybe you are not meant to know and God may indeed have a good reason for that too.  Consider the dust shaken off here.  I'm done.


There is no dust for you to shake off.  You have not even begun to show this unbiblical definition of "works of faith".  All you do is type out "works of faith", put it in quotes,  and think that is enough to prove your point.

This will now be the FIFTH time I will post the FULL verse in 1st Thessalonians and show you that it has nothing to do with man's effort.

Here is the verse:



> *2nd Thessalonians 1:11-12
> 
> With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may bring to fruition your every desire for goodness and your every deed prompted by faith. We pray this so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.*


This verse says NOTHING about man's actings of faith, as of they are something that a man does.  Paul is praying to God that God may make them worthy of their calling...that GOD may BY HIS POWER bring to fruition every good deed prompted by faith.

Your interpretation is ridiculous.  It is God that gives the grace, the faith, and the works to a Christian man.  NONE of it comes from man.

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## Sola_Fide

> Justification is not a one time event.


How does one lose their justification, and how does one gain it back Eduardo?

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## Brett85

> Because we are not saved by anything we do on our own. It is only by the grace of the Cross that we are saved.


Then wouldn't salvation be a one time event?

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## eduardo89

> Then wouldn't salvation be a one time event?


Yes, we are only truly saved when we die in a state of grace. However, salvation and justification are different things.

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## heavenlyboy34

> Yes, we are only truly saved when we die in a state of grace. However, salvation and justification are different things.


That^^

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## Sola_Fide

> Yes, we are only truly saved when we die in a state of grace. However, salvation and justification are different things.


How does one lose their justification,  and how does one get it back?

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## RJB

> And why should I talk about me anyway?


Testimonies are not bragging about yourself.  I was an atheist who wanted proof of God's existence.  Testimonies and the bible's promise that the Lord Jesus would hear our pleas is what prompted me to give a sincere prayer a try. God answered!  There is no way I can deny the Grace of God.  I've felt it.  I look forward to spending eternity with him.

I was neg repped on the forum by an atheist for saying it was possible to know God existed but impossible to prove.  It saddened me that he wasn't willing to call on the Lord Jesus Christ.






> Why not talk about the Lord?


I have in this post.  Why haven't you?  That's why I plead to you to pray for guidance.  He will hear you.

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## Terry1

> There is no dust for you to shake off.  You have not even begun to show this unbiblical definition of "works of faith".  All you do is type out "works of faith", put it in quotes,  and think that is enough to prove your point.
> 
> This will now be the FIFTH time I will post the FULL verse in 1st Thessalonians and show you that it has nothing to do with man's effort.
> 
> Here is the verse:
> 
> 
> This verse says NOTHING about man's actings of faith, as of they are something that a man does.  Paul is praying to God that God may make them worthy of their calling...that GOD may BY HIS POWER bring to fruition every good deed prompted by faith.
> 
> Your interpretation is ridiculous.  It is God that gives the grace, the faith, and the works to a Christian man.  NONE of it comes from man.


I've posted hundreds of scripture to prove my point, either you ignored them or now you're just being intellectually dishonest, probably both.  If wasn't a Christian, I could really give into the temptation to rip you a good one, but I'm performing a work of faith here by holding back what I really feel right now.  This too shall pass.

If I believed as you do, I'd just simply say what's on my mind knowing that God predestined me to lay into you good and then not worry about having to repent of it because that would be a dead work.

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## TER

> How does one lose their justification,  and how does one get it back?


Lets see what the God-bearing Fathers of the Church say:

Take heed now to yourselves, and not to be like some, adding largely to your sins, and saying, "The covenant is both theirs and ours." But they thus finally lost it, after Moses had already received it

- Barnabas (A.D. 70-130) ch.4


We take earnest heed in these last days; for the whole [past] time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger, as becomes the sons of God that the Black One may find no means of entrance.

- Barnabas (A.D. 70-130) ch.4


Take heed, lest resting at our ease, as those who are the called [of God], we should fall asleep in our sins, and the wicked prince, acquiring power over us, should thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord. And all the more attend to this, my brethren, when you reflect and behold, that after so great signs and wonders were wrought in Israel, they were thus [at length] abandoned. Let us beware lest we be found [fulfilling that saying], as it is written, "Many are called, but few are chosen." 

- Barnabas (A.D. 70-130) ch.4


Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come. But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last time. 

- Didache (A.D. 80-140) ch. 16


Look you, brethren, lest His benefits, which are many, turn unto judgment to all of us, if we walk not worthily of Him, and do those things which are good and well-pleasing in His sight with concord.  It is right therefore that we should not be deserters from His will. 

- Clement of Rome (A.D. 96) ch.21


But they that endured patiently in confidence inherited glory and honor; they were exalted, and had their names recorded by God in their memorial for ever and ever. Amen. To such examples as these therefore, brethren, we also ought to cleave. For it is written; Cleave unto the saints, for they that cleave unto them shall be sanctified.

- Clement of Rome (A.D. 96) ch. 46


And we ought not rather to fear men but God. For this cause, if you do these things, the Lord said, Though you be gathered together with Me in My bosom, and do not My commandments, I will cast you away and will say unto you, Depart from Me, I know you not whence you are, you workers of iniquity. 

- Second Clement (A.D. 100) ch.4


The promise of Christ is great and marvelous, even the rest of the kingdom that shall be and of life eternal. What then can we do to obtain them, but walk in holiness and righteousness, and consider these worldly things as alien to us, and not desire them? For when we desire to obtain these things we fall away from the righteous path.

- Second Clement (A.D. 100) ch.5


And the scripture also said in Ezekiel, Though Noah and Job and Daniel should rise up, they shall not deliver their children in the captivity. But if even such righteous men as these cannot by their righteous deeds deliver their children, with what confidence shall we, if we keep not our baptism pure and undefiled, enter into the kingdom of God? Or who shall be our advocate, unless we be found having holy and righteous works? 

- Second Clement (A.D. 100) ch. 6


We ought to know that he which contends in the corruptible contest, if he be found dealing corruptly with it, is first flogged, and then removed and driven out of the race-course. What think you? What shall be done to him that has dealt corruptly with the contest of incorruption? For as concerning them that have not kept the seal, He said, Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be for a spectacle unto all flesh. 

- Second Clement (A.D. 100) ch.7


Wherefore, my brethren, let us not be double-minded but endure patiently in hope, that we may also obtain our reward. 

- Second Clement (A.D. 100) ch. 11


Let us therefore practice righteousness that we may be saved unto the end. Blessed are they that obey these ordinances. Though they may endure affliction for a short time in the world, they will gather the immortal fruit of the resurrection. 

- Second Clement (A.D. 100) ch.19


For since, by the introduction into an appropriation us of the Holy Spirit, we are all "the temple of God," modesty is the sacristan and priestess of that temple, who is to suffer nothing unclean or profane to be introduced (into it), for fear that the God who inhabits it should be offended, and quite forsake the polluted abode. 

- Tertullian (A.D. 198) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.4 pg. 18


Fear is the foundation of salvation; presumption is an impediment to fear. More useful, then, is it to apprehend that we may possibly fail, than to presume that we cannot; for apprehending will lead us to fear, fearing to caution, and caution to salvation. On the other hand, if we presume, there will be neither fear nor caution to save us.

- Tertullian (A.D. 198) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.4 pg. 19

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## Miss Annie

Revelations 12:10-11
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

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## Terry1

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; *and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life:* and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

God says here "and the books were opened".  These are the books of life and death.  These books have recorded in them the lives of every single person that has ever lived and died from this earth.  God says He's judging them all, both in the Book of Life and the book of death.  Everyone's names are written in one of these books.  Their lives are recorded and everything they did or didn't do as a result of belief or unbelief, is all written in these books and this is how God said He will judge the hearts of men is by these same books.

Anyone who foolishly believes that we are not accountable to God for our works that are either done is faith or done in vain attempts through tradition to obtain righteousness are sadly deceived in this life.  We will be held accountable because the gifts that we were given were meant to be used in accordance with the word of God and those found to have not done these things will not be written in the Book of Life.  

Many will say on that day, "LORD-LORD, have we not done all of these things in your name?" 

This is why many who believe in predestination alone can not comprehend the difference between a "dead work under the old law of Moses" and a "work of faith done under the law of faith in the NT.  This deception alone can cause one to stumble from the point of belief into unbelief and keep them bound to a lie unless they repent and are given the gift of truth through those God is using to witness to them.

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## Christian Liberty

> Yes, we are only truly saved when we die in a state of grace. However, salvation and justification are different things.


No they aren't.  Salvation IS justification.  Salvation IS being justified before God.  Synergism is awful...

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## eduardo89

> No they aren't.  Salvation IS justification.  Salvation IS being justified before God.  Synergism is awful...


Salvation is the end result of justification.

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## Terry1

> Salvation is the end result of justification.


Justification is the end result of salvation.  Salvation is a life long process that does not begin and end with belief alone or grace alone.  We are saved by grace through faith which is a lifelong process to the very end of our lives.  Only then are we judged by God to be "justified, glorified and predestined as the elect.  No one can presume upon God who He has chosen in this life or the next, not even ourselves.

Continually abiding in Christ throughout our entire life is our only assurance and the hope we have.  We can rest in that knowing we are abiding in Christ.

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## TER



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## RJB

I've seen a few people on this thread who believe the some tenants of Calvinism yet they say they don't care for the term "Calvinist."  The first guy in the video said something about the baggage associated with the term.  I'm just curious as an outsider what you guys on the inside dislike about "Calvinist" or atleast the term?

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## Christian Liberty

> Salvation is the end result of justification.


It is absolute blasphemy to suggest that a man can go to Hell after being justified before God.  Blasphemy.

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## eduardo89

> It is absolute blasphemy to suggest that a man can go to Hell after being justified before God.  Blasphemy.


Where did I say that?

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## Christian Liberty

> Where did I say that?


By saying salvation is the end result of justification.  You believe salvation is not guaranteed until death.  This is very basic.

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## Christian Liberty

> I've seen a few people on this thread who believe the some tenants of Calvinism yet they say they don't care for the term "Calvinist."  The first guy in the video said something about the baggage associated with the term.  I'm just curious as an outsider what you guys on the inside dislike about "Calvinist" or atleast the term?


I'm indifferent to the term, but there are a few reasons people dislike it.

1. people don't want to be perceived as following Calvin.

2. Everyone has a different definition of "Calvinism", to some it means more like what SF believes while to others it means what I believe or something else.

3. Calvin arguably didn't believe in point #3.

4. Issues with labels.

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## RJB

> I'm indifferent to the term, but there are a few reasons people dislike it.
> 
> 1. people don't want to be perceived as following Calvin.
> 
> 2. Everyone has a different definition of "Calvinism", to some it means more like what SF believes while to others it means what I believe or something else.
> 
> 3. Calvin arguably didn't believe in point #3.
> 
> 4. Issues with labels.


Scratching my head about point #3.

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## erowe1

> I've seen a few people on this thread who believe the some tenants of Calvinism yet they say they don't care for the term "Calvinist."  The first guy in the video said something about the baggage associated with the term.  I'm just curious as an outsider what you guys on the inside dislike about "Calvinist" or atleast the term?


I don't like the connotation that it has something to do with Calvin. I have not read much of Calvin. What I've read I've generally liked. But he isn't one of my major influences by any stretch of the imagination. I came to believe the ideas that you probably have in mind when you say "Calvinism" by reading the Bible at a time when I was vehemently opposed to Calvinism and having my mind changed by the evidence.

I also don't like the way people try to make it sound like these doctrines are some innovation that Calvin invented and that nobody believed until then.

And then when people quote Calvin in their arguing against Calvinism, it's just a straw man.

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## Christian Liberty

> Scratching my head about point #3.


Sola_Fide believes strongly that Calvin didn't believe in Limited Atonement.  I know there are a lot of people who agree with him.  I don't really know for sure, myself, but its debated.

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## eduardo89

> 3. Calvin arguably didn't believe in point #3.


Calvin didn't believe that Calvin didn't believe in point #3 which is that Calvin didn't believe in point #3?

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## erowe1

> Calvin didn't believe that Calvin didn't believe in point #3 which is that Calvin didn't believe in point #3?


It's like if you have a card, and one side of the card says, "The statement on the other side of this card is false." and the statement on the other side says, "The statement on the other side of this card is true."

It seems impossible until you realize that both statements are precisely 50% true.

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## Christian Liberty

> It's like if you have a card, and one side of the card says, "The statement on the other side of this card is false." and the statement on the other side says, "The statement on the other side of this card is true."
> 
> It seems impossible until you realize that both statements are precisely 50% true.


Its late at night so maybe I'm just tired but... what the heck?

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## Sola_Fide

> Sola_Fide believes strongly that Calvin didn't believe in Limited Atonement.  I know there are a lot of people who agree with him.  I don't really know for sure, myself, but its debated.


He didn't:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...lvin-Was-Wrong

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## erowe1

> Its late at night so maybe I'm just tired but... what the heck?


When you said "point #3," what you meant was limited atonement. But what it looked like you meant was point #3 on your own list, which then became self-referential.

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## Terry1

> I don't like the connotation that it has something to do with Calvin. I have not read much of Calvin. What I've read I've generally liked. But he isn't one of my major influences by any stretch of the imagination. I came to believe the ideas that you probably have in mind when you say "Calvinism" by reading the Bible at a time when I was vehemently opposed to Calvinism and having my mind changed by the evidence.
> 
> I also don't like the way people try to make it sound like these doctrines are some innovation that Calvin invented and that nobody believed until then.
> 
> And then when people quote Calvin in their arguing against Calvinism, it's just a straw man.


What you're seeing as "evidence" is your misinterpretation of scripture.

Give me just five scriptures that indicate we have been "glorified and perfected" in this life and I'll give you over a hundred that say just the opposite.

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## Sola_Fide

> What you're seeing as "evidence" is your misinterpretation of scripture.
> 
> Give me just five scriptures that indicate we have been "glorified and perfected" in this life and I'll give you over a hundred that say just the opposite.



No you won't give a hundred verses that say that,  because they don't say what you think they mean.  The Bible is explicit that the atonement perfects God's elect people:




> *Hebrews 10:14 NASB
> 
> For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.*





> *Romans 8:30 NASB
> 
> and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.*

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## Christian Liberty

> When you said "point #3," what you meant was limited atonement. But what it looked like you meant was point #3 on your own list, which then became self-referential.


ok.

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## Terry1

> No you won't give a hundred verses that say that,  because they don't say what you think they mean.  The Bible is explicit that the atonement perfects God's elect people:


Wrong--Jesus wasn't even perfected until after his resurrection.  No one is perfected while in a human state of flesh, not even Jesus was perfected until after his crucifixion and resurrection, as evidenced here:


Luke 13:
31 On that very day some Pharisees came, saying to Him, “Get out and depart from here, for Herod wants to kill You.”

32 And He said to them, “Go, tell that fox, ‘*Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.’*  33 Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem.

When the word speaks about anything that is "perfect" in us, it always pertains to Jesus and what He did or is doing through us,  and not us that are perfected yet, as evidenced here:


*Philippians 3:12*

Pressing Toward the Goal

*12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
*

Whatever is "perfect" in us now, is Jesus working through us, we haven't been perfected yet, nor have we been "glorified" yet or "justified" yet.  Those are all speaking in terms of future events that are conditional upon abiding in Christ and remaining there until the death of this life.  NO ONE is perfected in this life--Jesus wasn't even perfected while in a tent of human flesh---It's impossible.

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## mosquitobite

> Wrong--Jesus wasn't even perfected until after his resurrection.  No one is perfected while in a human state of flesh, not even Jesus was perfected until after his crucifixion and resurrection, as evidenced here:
> 
> Luke 13:
> 31 On that very day some Pharisees came, saying to Him, Get out and depart from here, for Herod wants to kill You.
> 
> 32 And He said to them, Go, tell that fox, *Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.*  33 Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem.
> 
> 
> Whatever is "perfect" in us now, is Jesus working through us, we haven't been perfected yet, nor have we been "glorified" yet or "justified" yet.  Those are all speaking in terms of future events that are conditional upon abiding in Christ and remaining there until the death of this life.  NO ONE is perfected in this life--Jesus wasn't even perfected while in a tent of human flesh---It's impossible.


_But but but PAUL said..._

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## heavenlyboy34

> Wrong--Jesus wasn't even perfected until after his resurrection.  No one is perfected while in a human state of flesh, not even Jesus was perfected until after his crucifixion and resurrection, as evidenced here:
> 
> 
> Luke 13:
> 31 On that very day some Pharisees came, saying to Him, “Get out and depart from here, for Herod wants to kill You.”
> 
> 32 And He said to them, “Go, tell that fox, ‘*Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.’*  33 Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem.
> 
> When the word speaks about anything that is "perfect" in us, it always pertains to Jesus and what He did or is doing through us,  and not us that are perfected yet, as evidenced here:
> ...


+rep

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