# News & Current Events > Individual Rights Violations: Case Studies >  San Francisco Police Shoot Teenager Over $2 Bus Fare?

## hillbilly123069

Wasn't really sure where to put this story. Police say they returned fire and the public hid the gun. Witnesses say "What Gun?"
This is on video and very graphic.

http://globalgrind.com/news-politics...w-photos-video




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G68UmLMO7CY

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## HOLLYWOOD

Another link/video... *San Francisco Police Shoot fare dodger in back, he died.*

http://beforeitsnews.com/story/829/5...rain_Fare.html




> *Police State: San Francisco Police Shoot and Kill Man for Not Paying His Train Fare!*
> 
> 
> Sunday, July 17, 2011 8:33 
>         share this story
> 
>        On Saturday, July 16th, the San Francisco Police shot and killed an  unarmed 19 year-old man for allegedly not paying his Muni train  fare. Witnesses say the shooting happened after the suspect de-boarded  the T-Third Muni train and was confronted by police for not having a  ticket. A chase ensued and the suspect was shot at six to ten  times. People who gathered at the Muni stop were throwing bottles at  police, who had three blocks of Third Street blocked off, from Palou to  Newcomb avenues. Initial reports showed that the man was shot in the  back and there was no weapon to be found, however Sunday, the San  Francisco police claimed that they had "found" a silver handgun on the  scene likely in order to stave off another Rodney King type riot in the  streets of California.


*WATCH THIS FIRST ===>*http://video.godlikeproductions.com/...6947f98080271b

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## osan

> Wasn't really sure where to put this story. Police say they returned fire and the public hid the gun. Witnesses say "What Gun?"
> This is on video and very graphic.
> 
> http://globalgrind.com/news-politics...w-photos-video


These sorts of events are becoming ever more frequent.  Daily almost, in fact, and yet the people of this nation still do nothing.  And now the cops are stooping to lies that are not even remotely credible and I predict they will skate even so.

The only bright spot in all of this is that people were throwing things at them.  Damned shame nobody threw bullets at those dangerous, and now murderous, lunatics.

Had it been any other citizen opening fire willy nilly into the back of a fleeing fellow, forgetting the facts that they were in the midst of so many others, as well as the stupid city gun laws, they would be in a large world of very serious trouble.  Yet these great representatives of state infallibility are given the authority to murder their ways through their careers with impunity.  How nice.

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## AGRP

**GRAPHIC**

Video description:

On Saturday July 16th,2011 San Francisco Police Department has added more fuel to the fire of the growing amount of problems in the City of San Francisco,California by killing yet another Unarmed African American 19 year old Male in the BayView Hunters Point District who they "CLAIM" had a pistol
(which was never found and was also shooting back at them)
This Young man takes his last breath of life on the streets of San Francisco, Thanks to the help of Cold Hearted Police officers. Where is our Tax Dollars really going?

San Francisco Police Department Makes up a Fabricated Story in a effort to cover up their dirty work. DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE, THIS MAN WAS UNARMED THE ENTIRE TIME FROM START TO FINISH

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## brushfire

There's always many sides to the story...  Regardless of how it happened, this video is very disturbing, and I could barely stand to watch the 10 seconds I did watch.

After the sensation dies down, it will be interesting to hear what really happened.  Hopefully its not one of those Eric Scott cases, where the police f' up, obstruct justice, and walk away...

Till things calm though, I'm not going to discredit the story, but I'm not going to bash the police either.

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## MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2

> On Saturday July 16th,2011 San Francisco Police Department has added more fuel to the fire of the growing amount of problems in the City of San Francisco,California by killing yet another Unarmed African American 19 year old Male in the BayView Hunters Point District who they "CLAIM" had a pistol
> (*which was never found* and was also shooting back at them)
> This Young man takes his last breath of life on the streets of San Francisco, Thanks to the help of Cold Hearted Police officers.


Give it some time.  It just hasn't been found YET.  Took them a few days to find one in that Miami shooting.

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## Nirvikalpa

I saw this video a couple of days ago and was truly appalled.  

Cops are trained in basic first aid.  The kid was shot and bleeding out.  They should have/could have stopped the bleeding... PERIOD.  If the EMT's were called in and the scene was safe enough FOR THEM TO BE CALLED AND WHISKED IN then the SCENE WAS SAFE ENOUGH FOR THE COPS TO PERFORM THE MOST BASIC FORM OF CIRCULATORY FIRST AID, WHICH IS TO PLACE YOUR HAND OVER A WOUND AND TRY TO STOP THE BLEEDING.

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## brushfire

> I saw this video a couple of days ago and was truly appalled.  
> 
> Cops are trained in basic first aid.  The kid was shot and bleeding out.  They should have/could have stopped the bleeding... PERIOD.  If the EMT's were called in and the scene was safe enough FOR THEM TO BE CALLED AND WHISKED IN then the SCENE WAS SAFE ENOUGH FOR THE COPS TO PERFORM THE MOST BASIC FORM OF CIRCULATORY FIRST AID, WHICH IS TO PLACE YOUR HAND OVER A WOUND AND TRY TO STOP THE BLEEDING.


Its been said that the fear of a hostile crowd, which was accumulating, had complicated things concerning first aid.  I only watched about 10 seconds, so I cant confirm that - could you?  Perhaps I'll be forced to watch the whole thing to decide for my self...

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## NewRightLibertarian

Business as usual.

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## Brian4Liberty

> Hopefully its not one of those Eric Scott cases, where the police f' up, obstruct justice, and walk away...
> 
> Till things calm though, I'm not going to discredit the story, but I'm not going to bash the police either.


That was a disturbing video. They should have rendered aid.

One of the differences between this and the Eric Scott case is that the above shooting was in a very bad neighborhood were shootings of all kinds are routine, as opposed to a suburban Costco. It is very unusual for someone to pull a gun and draw down on Police. Unfortunately, it has happened recently in the Bay Area, and a guy killed two cops (in another bad neighborhood). The Police are fairly paranoid now, especially in those areas.

As much as some people would cheer some shootings, the unfortunate reaction is usually more violence. Blow-back in the neighborhoods, escalation of violence.

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## Seraphim

Pigs don't understand their actions effect other HUMANS.

That was brutal - the man was clearly on his stomach and unable to be violent, yet they watched him bleed out with their guns pointed at him. Unreal.




> I saw this video a couple of days ago and was truly appalled.  
> 
> Cops are trained in basic first aid.  The kid was shot and bleeding out.  They should have/could have stopped the bleeding... PERIOD.  If the EMT's were called in and the scene was safe enough FOR THEM TO BE CALLED AND WHISKED IN then the SCENE WAS SAFE ENOUGH FOR THE COPS TO PERFORM THE MOST BASIC FORM OF CIRCULATORY FIRST AID, WHICH IS TO PLACE YOUR HAND OVER A WOUND AND TRY TO STOP THE BLEEDING.

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## devil21

You don't get to watch a person die on camera too often.  


Unless cops are involved...

Then we see it all too often.

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## Travlyr

> Pigs don't understand their actions effect other HUMANS.
> 
> That was brutal - the man was clearly on his stomach and unable to be violent, yet they watched him bleed out with their guns pointed at him. Unreal.


That bothered me. Watch him die with their guns drawn and carefully aimed. Killers.

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## olehounddog

Check out http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/ . They have some new cell phone video. The video caused them to take this report down.

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## squarepusher

http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/?p=4456
Why we pulled the 7/16 San Francisco shooting report
By David, on July 17th, 2011

Around 4:45pm on Saturday San Francisco police fatally shot a young man who fled after being detained for jumping fare on a light rail vehicle. Initial reports were that police insisted the young man was armed and had opened fire and officers returned fire without being injured. However, police could not find the alleged weapon and people claiming to be witnesses were contradicting their version of events by insisting the man was not armed and had his arms up when he was shot.

I initially added this to the news feed since it did meet our reporting criteria with 3rd party witnesses alleging misconduct and a lack of evidence supporting the police narrative. However, as time went by the story changed and finally came to a point where I felt it was no longer sufficiently credible to keep for our database.

What was the turning point? An alleged bystander’s cell phone video posted to YouTube in the aftermath of the shooting appeared to capture what seems to be a firearm on the ground approximately 6-7 yards away from the victim which, according to the person posting the video, was retrieved by a person in the crowd who later disappeared.


A clip from the video with an enlargement of the object alleged to be a firearm.

Now, this does not mean that either narrative is correct. After all, it seems strange that the person who took the video doesn’t alert anyone to the alleged gun, that others appear to walk right past it, and at least 5 officers with a line of sight on the alleged weapon do not react to it either. It is also questionable as to how the person who shot the video claims to know who picked up the gun when the video doesn’t pan over to where that alleged incident occurs but does capture someone picking up a cell phone that may have belonged to the victim.

However, it does cast enough questions on the incident to make the police version of events plausible where it wasn’t before. So, in fact, this may well be an incident where private citizens videotaping police may turn in favor of the police, which at least should make officers who want to make recording the police a crime think twice about that stance.

What are your thoughts on the case? Take our poll or let us know in the comment section.

Do you think this is a case of police misconduct?

    Yes
    No
    I don't know

View Results

*UPDATE: The SFPD now say they have retrieved a weapon they believe was used by the person they shot during the incident. They claim that a number of videos taken by witnesses led them to the person who is accused of picking up the alleged weapon in the aftermath of the officer-involved shooting incident.

Another update: Police are now saying that the young man had a criminal record in Washington state and was a person of interest in a Seattle WA shooting that injured 4, including a pregnant woman who later died from her injuries.

Review Update: As new footage comes to light a reader comments that a second video does not appear to show the object alleged to be a gun that was shown in the first video we reviewed. I’ve taken a look at the second video, available here (caution, it is very graphic and upsetting), and have highlighted a frame taken at full screen resolution between 1:03 and 1:05 and compared that to a frame from the initial video where the object appears closest to the viewer. Since this site is 3-column you’ll have to click the images to see them full size.

Image of alleged gun from 1st video

Image of unknown object from 2nd video

The grid lines are my best effort at trying to line up reference points between the two videos to determine whether the object that appears in the second video is in the same approximate position as what is alleged to be the gun in the first video and the position does appear to correspond as best as I can tell. Though, due to the poor quality at distance of the second video and because these are grabs from copies of the videos on YouTube instead of the raw video files I cannot determine for certain if they are the same object.

Unfortunately this is the best analysis I can do with the rather limited equipment and resources I have at my disposal. But it does appear as though the second video does not debunk the allegations of a gun appearing in the first video.

Now, again, I feel I have to say that I know being skeptical about this report isn’t going to earn me any friends and would appear to be counter to what some people might think this site is about. But this project must maintain a degree of credibility since we use our data to create statistics about police misconduct so it would be counter to our mission to record an incident in our database when there is evidence that it isn’t a case of misconduct.

Again, that’s not to say that there may or may not be some other component of misconduct involved here, but there just isn’t enough evidence to support that this was a case of non-defensive use of force at this time and there is no other evidence that I’ve been presented with that indicates that it is. Yes, it is difficult and upsetting to watch a young man suffer and die like this. But I cannot let my feelings about that affect how I analyze the evidence I’m shown. If anyone has any other videos or witness claims they feel should be weighed in this case, please do let me know.

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## devil21

> That bothered me. Watch him die with their guns drawn and carefully aimed. Killers.


Gotta love the pig that thought it was necessary to carry an M4 around like he's in a war zone to intimidate.

I just rewatched the video and there's no gun "6-7 feet" from the dying man.  If there was you would clearly see it.  I see a piece of trash on the ground and that's why everyone that walks past it ignores it.

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## brushfire

> http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/?p=4456
> Why we pulled the 7/16 San Francisco shooting report
> By David, on July 17th, 2011
> 
> ...


That's the other side of the story I was talking about.  Thanks for posting that.

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## AGRP

> As much as some people would cheer some shootings, the *unfortunate* reaction is usually more violence. Blow-back in the neighborhoods, escalation of violence.


I wouldn't say unfortunate when the police state promotes violence in order to achieve their tyrannical goals.

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## Travlyr

> Gotta love the pig that thought it was necessary to carry an M4 around like he's in a war zone to intimidate.
> 
> I just rewatched the video and there's no gun "6-7 feet" from the dying man.  If there was you would clearly see it.  I see a piece of trash on the ground and that's why everyone that walks past it ignores it.


It does look like a war zone. One side armed the other side dangerous.

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## Rael

The cops may or may not have been justified in shooting him, but either way, why leave the man bleeding in the street?

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## devil21

Actually, after watching both videos I think the "gun" video is doctored and the alleged gun is a video editing job.  

Look at the area where the "gun" is in this video.  It's straight up from the dead guy, almost an exact line.



Now, rewatch the video posted in the OP of this thread.  Look at the same area where the "gun" is in the above video.



Notice anything?  There's no gun in the second video in the place the first video alleges it is.  People are even yelling "where the gun?".  If it was right there nobody would be asking that question.  The "gun" video looks like a fake.

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## fisharmor

Wait... the thought process here is that if someone shoots at the police, it's ok for them to stand there and watch him die?
Are people actually thinking that?
How is this any different from finding a rope and a tree and doing it that way?

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## junkmonkey

> These sorts of events are becoming ever more frequent.  Daily almost, in fact, and yet the people of this nation still do nothing.


Yeah they just yell and taunt, even if they vastly outnumber thugs. Someone needs to be the first to do this. I think once a few cops are killed in a riot, it will take off.

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## heavenlyboy34

Everyone remember this senseless murder (and all the others chronicled on RPFs) when apologists for government police start insisting that the cops are necessary for "security".

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## Kylie

> Yeah they just yell and taunt, even if they vastly outnumber thugs. Someone needs to be the first to do this. I think once a few cops are killed in a riot, it will take off.


Or they will install the full force martial law that they have been planning for. 

Door to door raids, confiscation of arms. 

And then....you're $#@!ed. 


Yeah, violence isn't going to work this time. I know ya wanna. But it won't work.

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## Krugerrand

Public humiliation is the way to go.

"Daddy, why is your picture on that billboard?"

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## Travlyr

> Wait... the thought process here is that if someone shoots at the police, it's ok for them to stand there and watch him die?
> Are people actually thinking that?
> *How is this any different from finding a rope and a tree and doing it that way?*


Judge, Jury & Executioner

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## brushfire

> Wait... the thought process here is that if someone shoots at the police, it's ok for them to stand there and watch him die?
> Are people actually thinking that?
> How is this any different from finding a rope and a tree and doing it that way?


I dont get the correlation of your rope example...  In a fire fight, if an assailant is shot in self defense, and the area has not been secured (i.e. mob is forming), its not reasonable to expect individuals operating in self defense to risk their lives to save the assailant.  If anything, assuming this is the case, the crowd contributed to the demise of the purp, by creating an insecure situation (police officers will put a priority on their own defense, and medics will not administer first aid with a mob of people around, and a missing firearm).

This looking less and less like a "pig kills a young child over failing to pay a $2 bus fee" - IMO.  From what I can tell, I dont think the cops have conducted some sort of sentencing without trial...  People will believe what they want to though...

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## junkmonkey

> Or they will install the full force martial law that they have been planning for. 
> 
> Door to door raids, confiscation of arms. 
> 
> And then....you're $#@!ed. 
> 
> 
> Yeah, violence isn't going to work this time. I know ya wanna. But it won't work.


Nonviolence doesnt work either. Thugs only respond to force. Eventually, a revolution will occur and people will seize their rights back.

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## Kylie

> Nonviolence doesnt work either. Thugs only respond to force. Eventually, a revolution will occur and people will seize their rights back.




This is where the non-aggression principle comes in I guess.

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## 123tim

Found this on another page:



> Someone picked up the firearm that the suspect had shot with and ran southbound up the street with it," San Francisco Police Chief Greg Suhr said. "Luckily, someone else in the crowd took video...and officers have been able to track that firearm and we believe we have it in custody."


Doesn't make much sense.  They "believe" that they have it in custody?

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## devil21

> *This looking less and less like a "pig kills a young child over failing to pay a $2 bus fee" - IMO.*  From what I can tell, I dont think the cops have conducted some sort of sentencing without trial...  People will believe what they want to though...


Explain the discrepancies in the videos that I analyzed on page 2.

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## HOLLYWOOD

@ 15 seconds in video... zoomed and enhanced

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## Brooklyn Red Leg

Umm, anyone NOT find it credible that the police were simply standing over the corpse of this poor bastard and there was a gun lying out in plain sight some 10 yards away and they did NOTHING? Sorry, but that is a level of bull$#@! that exceeds the 'lying $#@!' mark. There is NO WAY they would not have retrieved the firearm or at least put someone standing NEAR it saying 'Don't $#@!ing touch!'. We're supposed to believe they were THAT blind?

On the other hand they ARE that blind then they sure as $#@! don't need to be wearing that tin star, carrying weapons and a license to kill.

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## brushfire

> Explain the discrepancies in the videos that I analyzed on page 2.


I'll explain them as perceived discrepancies...
There have been some people, perhaps with the same qualifications/resources as you have, that see the gun in both videos - no?

Dont take it personal, but your analysis has not won be over on that.

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## brushfire

> Umm, anyone NOT find it credible that the police were simply standing over the corpse of this poor bastard and there was a gun lying out in plain sight some 10 yards away and they did NOTHING? Sorry, but that is a level of bull$#@! that exceeds the 'lying $#@!' mark. There is NO WAY they would not have retrieved the firearm or at least put someone standing NEAR it saying 'Don't $#@!ing touch!'. We're supposed to believe they were THAT blind?
> 
> On the other hand they ARE that blind then they sure as $#@! don't need to be wearing that tin star, carrying weapons and a license to kill.


I dont have an explanation for every thing, this thing's still panning out, but strange things do happen in these circumstances.  There have been people who crash their cars in a river, and drown...  Investigators have found the dead with their seat-belts on and an apparent struggle to get out.  What would seem to be a simple action, removing one's seat-belt, becomes an overlooked/lethal detail in some circumstances.

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## devil21

> I'll explain them as perceived discrepancies...
> There have been some people, perhaps with the same qualifications/resources as you have, that see the gun in both videos - no?
> 
> Dont take it personal, but your analysis has not won be over on that.


Show me where the gun is in the OP video.

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## devil21

> @ 15 seconds in video... zoomed and enhanced


What little shadow there is, if any at all, of the gun, contradicts the shadowing of everything else in the picture.  If that gun is THAT obvious in that video, why is it impossible to see in the OP's video?  That's what I want to know.  Where is the gun in the OP's video?  And why are people shouting "where's the gun?" when it apparently would have been about 15 feet away from them in plain sight on the ground.

And why would the cops leave the weapon unsecured?  Supposedly the story is someone actually picked up the gun and took off AFTER the guy died.  No cops picked it up, or even so much as guarded it, yet it was their only proof that it was a righteous shoot?  Yeah right.

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## JK/SEA

Too bad these incidents are being wasted. Be a great time to inject some type of advertising or a PSA announcement. After cop shoots ..dog..child..black person..he could say into a camera..''ya know, after something like this, i like to stop at 7/11 and pick up a cold 6 pack, go home, put my feet up and take a long pull off that cold beer to take away the stress of the day''..now, if you'll excuse me, i have to get my story straight...wink wink..

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## libertyjam

> Explain the discrepancies in the videos that I analyzed on page 2.


You obviously need to check your eyesight or your spacial awareness abilities.

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## devil21

> You obviously need to check your eyesight or your spacial awareness abilities.


Another one that throws bricks but doesn't actually point out where the gun is in the OP's video.  Try again buddy.  Proof?  Naaa....too much work right?

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## brushfire

> Show me where the gun is in the OP video.


The best that I can offer is what was already posted:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3406744

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## libertyjam

> Umm, anyone NOT find it credible that the police were simply standing over the corpse of this poor bastard and there was a gun lying out in plain sight some 10 yards away and they did NOTHING? Sorry, but that is a level of bull$#@! that exceeds the 'lying $#@!' mark. There is NO WAY they would not have retrieved the firearm or at least put someone standing NEAR it saying 'Don't $#@!ing touch!'. We're supposed to believe they were THAT blind?
> 
> On the other hand they ARE that blind then they sure as $#@! don't need to be wearing that tin star, carrying weapons and a license to kill.


I see no less than 6 people between the officers and the gun in the video commanding their attention, and the man closest to the gun looks like he is checking out that no one else see the gun as if he is about to grab it, i would bet he is the one that the po-po's finally retrieved the weapon from.

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## devil21

> The best that I can offer is what was already posted:
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3406744


How about a time stamp?  Give me a time stamp when to see the gun on the ground in the OP's video.  Stop resorting to other's research and back it up with your own.

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## libertyjam

> Show me where the gun is in the OP video.


Out of video frame is where it is.

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## libertyjam

> Another one that throws bricks but doesn't actually point out where the gun is in the OP's video.  Try again buddy.  Proof?  Naaa....too much work right?


Rush to judgement much?

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## devil21

> Out of video frame is where it is.


You're the one with vision problems.  The entire area behind the dead guy where the gun allegedly is is in full display SEVERAL times in the OP's video.  There's no gun there.  It's a fake and you're falling for it.




> Rush to judgement much?


Fail to back up assertions much?

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## squarepusher

> @ 15 seconds in video... zoomed and enhanced

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## Wyle

The cops just got in a shooting and did not see what happened to the gun.  In a fight or flight situation, especially if you get shot and are are shooting back + chasing a suspect you get tunnel vision.  When the guy gets shot his hand look like they are underneath his stomach.  If the guys still moving and has his hand under his belly I would be assuming he could of landed on the gun and would not be in a rush to go over there and give him CPR/First Aid so I could get popped in the face myself.  Not only that but expect to be in shock as well if your involved in this kind of situation  + add 50 angry citizens rushing up on you in one of the worst parts of San Francisco.

I'm not going to judge.

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## libertyjam

> You're the one with vision problems.  The entire area behind the dead guy where the gun allegedly is is in full display SEVERAL times in the OP's video.  There's no gun there.  It's a fake and you're falling for it.
> 
> 
> 
> Fail to back up assertions much?


Why should I? The various videos show what they show, and they sure as hell don't show what you are claiming.

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## newbitech

> Actually, after watching both videos I think the "gun" video is doctored and the alleged gun is a video editing job.  
> 
> Look at the area where the "gun" is in this video.  It's straight up from the dead guy, almost an exact line.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, rewatch the video posted in the OP of this thread.  Look at the same area where the "gun" is in the above video.  Just above the corner of the other cell phone and to the right of the cops forearm.  Something flickers in the light around the same square as the other vid showing a gun.
> 
> 
> ...


Not casting judgement either way.  1:04-1:07 in the OP vid

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## devil21

> Not casting judgement either way.  1:04-1:07 in the OP vid


Thank you for actually pointing out what you are referring to instead of empty insulting comments.  Is that the same fleck as seen in the alleged gun video?  Certainly could be.  The location appears similar.  It then begs the question of why he was shot in the back and the gun ended up that far AHEAD of him, as if he fell forward when shot.  A bystander says he was shot in the back, which coincides with what we see here.  Is a shot in the back a righteous shoot?  That's the next question.

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## newbitech

> Thank you for actually pointing out what you are referring to instead of empty insulting comments.  Is that the same fleck as seen in the alleged gun video?  Certainly could be.  The location appears similar.  It then begs the question of why he was shot in the back and the gun ended up that far AHEAD of him, as if he fell forward when shot.  A bystander says he was shot in the back, which coincides with what we see here.  Is a shot in the back a righteous shoot?  That's the next question.


No problem.  Initially, I was looking to see how the cell phone got there that the guy actually picked up, cause at least you know somebody picked something up.  I think the cell phone was probably one of the bystanders, maybe threw it down in disgust.  I am surprised that someone would point out the cell phone to the camera and not the weapon.  I would think the camera would find the weapon more interesting.  I am also surprised that if the weapon was so close to the scene, why the cops would not have protected it.  The perp was allegedly having a shoot out with the cops, so that is the only reason I can see to shoot him in the back.  

It appears as if the cops did not know what happened to the weapon, or maybe they thought he had another gun.  Strangely enough, the cops did not attempt to surround the scene even after the guy was obviously no danger.  

I don't know if the flicker I saw at that time was a gun or not.  There appears to be all kinds of shiny objects on the ground in this scene both from the OP and the second video.

I don't think the video shows conclusive evidence either way.  I tend to believe the guy was running away from the cops.  They thought he had a gun, but it could have been anything.  If the guy was shooting, there will be bullet casings that would match the type of weapon the 2nd video allegedly shows.  For now, I will have to go with the eye witnesses.  There was no weapon, the guy was shot in the back fleeing a minor crime.  The cops who were on the scene failed once again (at least to this point) to secure actual evidence of a threat other than the standard, "I felt threatened so I killed him".

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## Travlyr

> @ 15 seconds in video... zoomed and enhanced


Why is the gun not casting a shadow like everything else in the picture?

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## Wyle

Police: Gunshot residue found on slain man's hand

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...#ixzz1SbVJg3tW



let me guess.  He had just got off the bus platform after returning home from the firing range?

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## junkmonkey

> This is where the non-aggression principle comes in I guess.


Theyve already aggressed between their actions and their theft of our income and general oppression of our liberties.

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## DamianTV

It was NEVER about the Quantity of Money from the Bus Fare.  It was ALL about taking the first person they can get ahold of and making an example out of anyone who does not completely surrender to their Authority.

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## DamianTV

People can be as non aggressive as they want, as long as they are able to defend themselves with an equal measure of aggressiveness.  In less verbal diahhrea terms, just to say that if you have a gun, you dont need to get violent because you can kick my ass, and maybe I shouldnt mess with you to begin with.

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## Travlyr

> Why is the gun not casting a shadow like everything else in the picture?


Only the shadow knows?

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## Wyle

Get's even better.. suspect killed himself.  the killing round was a .380 and sfpd only uses .40    They think it was a self inflicted... unknown if accidental or intentional.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...DJ6H.DTL&tsp=1

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## Revolution9

> Why is the gun not casting a shadow like everything else in the picture?


Compare the plane of the gun side metal with the car hood in the upper right. They both are approximately parallel in plane and the amount of light falling on the car is the same producing approximately the same energy of specular highlight. If you also follow the perspective of the shadows the shadow for the gun is lining up with the perspective grid of the people shadows, which focal point is up and off the image to the right. For example look again in the upper right image of the guy standing arms out and legs spread and note the shadow just below him. Trace that and the shadow for the gun is correct keeping in mind it is not very tall and folks seem to be casting shadows approximately as long as they are tall. Dude looks like a gangbanger to my street smart eye. However..this is another glorious moment in the continuing saga of the swinest in flaw reinforcement.

Rev9

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## libertybrewcity

Rise up citizens, rise up.

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## squarepusher

suspicious

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## AFPVet

I saw this video awhile back and you could hear one of the citizens ask why they shot him. One officer said "because he ran". Folks, we don't shoot fleeing felons anymore unless they have the means to inflict serious injury or death. Besides... this wasn't a felony... this was theft and fleeing. We don't shoot people in the back over a bus pass and fleeing arrest. Further, I believe the gun was a plant personally.

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## devil21

> Get's even better.. suspect killed himself.  the killing round was a .380 and sfpd only uses .40    They think it was a self inflicted... unknown if accidental or intentional.
> 
> 
> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...DJ6H.DTL&tsp=1


Wait.  He shot himself?  What?  And didn't the cops say previously that they CAUGHT the guy that allegedly picked up the gun and took off?  They ID'ed him through the videos.  He was another parolee, right?  That article above says they haven't found the stolen .380 they claim the dead guy shot himself with.  Now they claim he also took the time to pick up the shell casings before leaving with the gun?!?! This whole story gets stinkier by the day.  The cops are contradicting themselves right in the media.

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## Mach

> Actually, after watching both videos I think the "gun" video is doctored and the alleged gun is a video editing job.  
> 
> Look at the area where the "gun" is in this video.  It's straight up from the dead guy, almost an exact line.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, rewatch the video posted in the OP of this thread.  Look at the same area where the "gun" is in the above video.
> 
> 
> ...


Time to dig in.... .... go to (1:40) on the OP's original (2nd down ) and listen to the guy yell... _where's the gun at_... multiple times, keep watching and at (1:57) watch the cop with the blue base-ball cap walk across from left to right just on the other side of the shot teen, he cruises straight across like he is headed somewhere, he steps over the chain and disappears for a few seconds, at about (2:01) you'll see another cop walk over to the curb just on this side of the shot teen, he seems to look right at the point where the gun was supposed to have been, he seems to be trying to see what that other cop is doing, in that couple of seconds you see that cop that went over the chain straight towards the supposed gun on the ground, and no, there were no people over in that area yet, come moseying back with his hands in his pockets (Freudian), he stops for a couple of seconds looking back and forth and then steps back over the chain, then he walks around downright pacing in circles like he is a little nervous, his buddy that's still standing on that curb corner at (2:17) looks over in the "gun" direction and then looks over his shoulder to see where blue-cap went, blue-cap turns and walks away, for a second or two... watch his curb buddy look right over at that "gun," (2:28) and then back behind him again looking for Officer blue-cap, puzzled.

 OK, after all that at least ask yourself why Officer blue-cap crossed all the way over that chain at least a couple feet, so, he was within about 15ft of that "gun," with no people over their at all and he didn't see that shiny weapon? C'mon, he would've almost stepped on the supposed thing.


Then right after all that  may have happened, a person with some type of video device, which yes, is very common, comes walking up to the "shiny gun" and almost steps on it..... by the way, you can see Off. blue-cap in the video on top too... 

The only problem I have with all of that up there is that I don't see how there could have been a gun at all, look at all of the people that were pretty much "stepping on it" left and right. Even the person that recorded the video would have stepped on it if they wouldn't have swerved around it...

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## Chester Copperpot

is that a shiny silver gun that hooded guy picked up? It almost looks like a flattened aluminum can...

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## Indy Vidual

Not sure about the _"$2 TICKET"_ but it is a pretty shocking video.

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## Exiled_LFOD

The incident occurred around 4:45 p.m. (Saturday, July 16) on Third Street and Oakdale Avenue when a 19-year-old man, 
http://globalgrind.com/news-politics...w-photos-video


The videos below reportedly show the San Francisco police shooting a non-resisting man in back and while laying face down in the street. The teenager in the video was lethal wounded after being shot 5 times after the police reportedly chased him down for not paying a $2 bus fare.

The Police claim this man had a gun which still has not been found and eyewitnesses at the scene say the official story coming from the police is full of lies.

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/201...us-fare-36491/

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## Expatriate

//

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## Brian4Liberty

This is old. There's a thread on it somewhere.

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## Danke

> This is old. There's a thread on it somewhere.


 ya, one should really check in with AF before posting these stories.

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## Voluntary Man

> The incident occurred around 4:45 p.m. (Saturday, July 16) on Third Street and Oakdale Avenue when a 19-year-old man, 
> http://globalgrind.com/news-politics...w-photos-video
> 
> 
> The videos below reportedly show the San Francisco police shooting a non-resisting man in back and while laying face down in the street. The teenager in the video was lethal wounded after being shot 5 times after the police reportedly chased him down for not paying a $2 bus fare.
> 
> The Police claim this man had a gun which still has not been found and eyewitnesses at the scene say the official story coming from the police is full of lies.
> 
> http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/201...us-fare-36491/


come on, now, why would a C.O.P. "lie"?



[*C*orruption *O*bfuscation *P*revarication]

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## Indy Vidual

> This is old. There's a thread on it somewhere.


I searched by the title of the video, nothing came up.

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## Voluntary Man

> I searched by the title of the video, nothing came up.


you're expected to memorize everything that was ever posted on this forum. come on, man, get with the program!

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## Carson

> I searched by the title of the video, nothing came up.


I don't think the search here works very well. I can remember having better luck with Google Site Search but it is kind of hard to use now. You have to dig around in the Google search options.

http://www.google.com/enterprise/sea...ducts_gss.html

It comes up with about three pages of stuff.

_
Modern Missouri Police Movement - Ron Paul 2012 Forums
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
with a sense of defeat over the dramatic failure of most government ... Raiding officers subsequently shoot Doran twice, inflicting injuries that ... federal jury awards Doran $2 million, finding that the Kansas City Board of Police Commissioners was ... Groves police officers are fired for having sexual encounters with teen‐aged ...
www.ronpaulforums.com
San Francisco Police Shoot Teenager Over $2 Bus Fare? [Archive ...
Jul 18, 2011 ... Wasn't really sure where to put this story. Police say they returned fire and the public hid the gun. Witnesses say "What Gun?" This is on video ...
www.ronpaulforums.com
San Francisco Police Shoot Teenager Over $2 Bus Fare? - Page 2
Wasn't really sure where to put this story. Police say they returned fire and the public hid the gun. Witnesses say "What Gun?" This is on video ...
www.ronpaulforums.com
Individual Rights & Liberties - Page 20
San Francisco Police Shoot Teenager Over $2 Bus Fare? Wasn't really sure where to put this story. Police say they returned fire and the public hid the gun.
www.ronpaulforums.com_

*
Oh Yah! Now I remember. If you want to use Google to search here you enter it like this in the Google search box;*

POLICE KILL TEENAGER OVER $2 TICKET site:www.ronpaulforums.com

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## Expatriate

Hmm. Why didn't this blow up nationally like the Trayvon Martin thing?

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## pcosmar

> Hmm. Why didn't this blow up nationally like the Trayvon Martin thing?


the perp was an actual cop rather than a wannabe cop?

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## kcchiefs6465

> I searched by the title of the video, nothing came up.


Thank you for the thread. I had not seen this one. Only after 100 people showed up, did they even attempt to act like they were administering first aid. Nor did they let anyone else get close to administer first aid. A damn shame.

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## Brian4Liberty

> the perp was an actual cop rather than a wannabe cop?


There's the real answer.

Although as in the Trayvon Martin case, more information came out after the initial outrage.

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## Brian4Liberty

> I searched by the title of the video, nothing came up.


Happens all the time. Forum search software is not Google...

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## The Northbreather

This video shows it was a cell phone and they edited it?

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## Tod

Looks to me like someone edited the one video that does show a gun, replacing the cell phone with a gun.  That would explain how it is that people are milling around acting as though there is a cell phone on the ground rather than a handgun.  Early on, there are no people between the cops and the location of the "gun", so it makes no sense that the cops wouldn't have seen and secured it immediately.

My verdict:  probably yet another case of cops covering their own butts.  It makes sense that someone associated with the P.D. would grab video from you tube, edit it favorably, and re-post it.

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## VoluntaryAmerican

> I saw this video a couple of days ago and was truly appalled.  
> 
> *Cops are trained in basic first aid.  The kid was shot and bleeding out.  They should have/could have stopped the bleeding... PERIOD*.  If the EMT's were called in and the scene was safe enough FOR THEM TO BE CALLED AND WHISKED IN then the SCENE WAS SAFE ENOUGH FOR THE COPS TO PERFORM THE MOST BASIC FORM OF CIRCULATORY FIRST AID, WHICH IS TO PLACE YOUR HAND OVER A WOUND AND TRY TO STOP THE BLEEDING.


Absolutely correct assesment... 

Do not forgive the people in the crowd, either...

They begged authority to fix the situation instead of taking matters in to their own hands and giving him first aid...

A trully horrible video.

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## DerailingDaTrain

I see a gun in the second video. I see what could be a gun in the first video. Is there a gun? I don't know but it's kind of weird that all of these people would be walking past a gun and not even look at it.

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## Brian4Liberty

Before you all get too involved in debating this story, it was pretty much settled a long time ago.

The bullet to his neck came from a .380, which was likely the gun seen in the video on the ground. He shot himself in the neck while running, probably accidentally.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/201...-shot-himself/




> SAN FRANCISCO (CBS SF) – A man who was thought to have died from an officer-involved shooting in San Francisco last weekend appears instead to have been killed by a self-inflicted gunshot wound, investigators revealed Thursday.
> 
> Kenneth Harding Jr., a 19-year-old Seattle resident, allegedly ran from officers who had attempted to detain him Saturday for fare evasion at a San Francisco Municipal Railway light-rail stop at Third Street and Palou Avenue.
> 
> San Francisco Police Say Teen In Bayview Muni Shooting Killed Himself
> 
> However, the bullet believed to have killed Harding was removed from his head by the medical examiner, who discovered it was a .380-caliber bullet, which is not consistent with the service ammunition used by San Francisco police.
> 
> The bullet had entered his body from the right side of his neck before lodging in his head, chief medical examiner Dr. Amy Hart said.
> ...

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## Brian4Liberty

> Looks to me like someone edited the one video that does show a gun, replacing the cell phone with a gun.  That would explain how it is that people are milling around acting as though there is a cell phone on the ground rather than a handgun.  Early on, there are no people between the cops and the location of the "gun", so it makes no sense that the cops wouldn't have seen and secured it immediately.
> 
> My verdict:  probably yet another case of cops covering their own butts.  It makes sense that someone associated with the P.D. would grab video from you tube, edit it favorably, and re-post it.


In the video, the cell phone was in a different location than the handgun (gun was further away). Cell phone was not there when the person with the video first walked up. Someone dropped the cell while video was being filmed.

And it does look like a couple of people were scoping out the pistol as the video first starts. Once it got more crowded, someone snagged it.

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## Brian4Liberty

And why would he have a pistol in his hand? He was wanted (suspect) in another shooting a week earlier.




> Harding was considered a person of interest in a shooting in Seattle last week that killed a 19-year-old pregnant woman and injured three other people. Biel said he did not know whether the weapon used in that shooting was consistent with the .380-caliber bullets found in the San Francisco case.

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## mport1

> Business as usual.


This.  Nothing surprises me anymore.  The police are just a violent criminal gang who understand that they have almost complete immunity from their actions.  What do you expect to happen when you have a monopoly on violence and brainwash people to respect the supposed authority of these men who dress up in silly costumes and badges?

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## Tod

> Before you all get too involved in debating this story, it was pretty much settled a long time ago.*He shot himself in the neck while running, probably accidentally.*


That doesn't strike me as being very plausible, given the location of the wound.

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## DerailingDaTrain

Wouldn't you have to be pointing the gun at your face while running to accidentally trip, pull the trigger, and shoot yourself in the neck?

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## Brian4Liberty

If I recall weapons safety training, pulling a pistol and running with a finger on the trigger was not recommended. Looking backwards and tripping a bit would also contribute. The shot came upwards into the neck and embedded behind the cheek. The gun would be in the correct position, all it has to do is end up pointed upward for a moment. You could just be pulling it out of the pants or pocket and have it go off pointed up. Weird things happen.

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## Brian4Liberty

Trained professionals only shoot themselves in the leg.

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## Brian4Liberty

Double tap.

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## kcchiefs6465

> Before you all get too involved in debating this story, it was pretty much settled a long time ago.
> 
> The bullet to his neck came from a .380, which was likely the gun seen in the video on the ground. He shot himself in the neck while running, probably accidentally.


Even if the ballistics test determined this to be true, I still would like to think basic first aid would be administered before the EMT's arrive. Hell, if the officers don't want to get bloody let someone else administer first aid. Blocking any attempt to save this man's life  still makes this a case in-point of the police state we live in. If their K9 had been shot he undoubtedly would have got that.

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## jmdrake

LOL.  But if the cop in the first video really shot himself in the leg wouldn't his reaction have been more like the guy in the 2nd video?  (Cussing...walking off holding his leg instead of carrying on the demonstration as if nothing happened and asking for another gun)? 




> Trained professionals only shoot themselves in the leg.

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## Brian4Liberty

> Even if the ballistics test determined this to be true, I still would like to think basic first aid would be administered before the EMT's arrive.


Absolutely.

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