# Start Here > Guest Forum >  Are you a Real libertarian or a ROYAL libertarian

## NOT a freeloader

> *Are you a Real Libertarian, or a
> ROYAL
> Libertarian?*
> 
> by Dan Sullivan, founder, geolibertarian society, and
> former chair, Libertarian Party of Allegheny County, (Pittsburgh) Pennsylvania
> 
> We call ourselves the "party of principle," and we base property rights on the principle that everyone is entitled to the fruits of his labor. Land, however, is not the fruit of anyone's labor, and our system of land tenure is based not on labor, but on decrees of privilege issued from the state, called titles. In fact, the term "real estate" is Middle English (originally French) for "royal state." The "title" to land is the essence of the title of nobility, and the root of noble privilege.
> 
> ...


What are your opinions on this? It was very, very eye opening to me. Some people in the libertarian camp and in the Ron Paul camp seem to believe in state granted property rights over true liberty rights. Do you really have liberty when landowners have all the economic opportunity in a stranglehold so that you must give them a portion of your labor although they give you nothing in exchange for it? The land was already there. What would stop the land user from taking advantage of it productively if the landowners had never existed? The landowner qua landowner is a completely idle and nonproductive economic entity that we would be better off without, IMO. Property rights in land is in direct contradiction with property rights in the fruits of labor. BTW, this has nothing to do with socialism. The french physiocrats, David Ricardo, Adam Smith, Thomas Paine, and Henry George are some historical figures who shared some of that sentiment of what I posted above.

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## Occam's Banana

Are we due for another LVT thread already?  My, how time flies! ...

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> Are we due for another LVT thread already?


No, no, no.  Luxury Vinyl Tile is simply symptomatic of our superficial society.  Real wood flooring rules!

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## Ronin Truth

> *The Philosophy of Ownership*
> 
> *Robert LeFevre*
> 
> The significance of property ownership has rarely been fully appreciated, writes Robert LeFevre.
> 
> He proceeds to present the entire libertarian case for private ownership, with his characteristic clarity of exposition. He makes what is a radically hard-core case for the absolute integrity of self ownership and property ownership but in a way that comes across as common-sense. He shows that how a society thinks about the issue of ownership is not just a matter of details; our very survival depends on it.
> 
> Here is an excellent overview of a topic that Mises said was the foundational idea of liberalism itself. But it's more than an overview: it is a strong case for iron-clad, impenetrable, and no-exceptions social rules on ownership.



http://library.mises.org/books/Rober...0Ownership.pdf

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## helmuth_hubener

Hey, I'm up for it.  I was just thinking of starting a thread asking if anyone was up for a new thread an Georgism.  And now, tada!, here's an apparent Georgist shown up like magic.

Fun, fun, fun!

For my initial respense:

All physical objects either are natural resources, or were originally natural resources before being modified by humans.  Thus, all physical property either was once nothing but natural resources, or still is.  Thus, if natural resouces cannot be justly owned by humans, it is difficult to see how _any_ physical property can be justly owned by humans.  All physical property has its orgins in natural resources.

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## Ronin Truth

> Hey, I'm up for it. I was just thinking of starting a thread asking if anyone was up for a new thread an Georgism. And now, tada!, here's an apparent Georgist shown up like magic.
> 
> Fun, fun, fun!
> 
> For my initial respense:
> 
> All physical objects either are natural resources, or were originally natural resources before being modified by humans. Thus, all physical property either was once nothing but natural resources, or still is. Thus, if natural resouces cannot be justly owned by humans, it is difficult to see how _any_ physical property can be justly owned by humans. All physical property has its orgins in natural resources.


 Did you justly own your breakfast?

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## klamath

It is why I am neither a libertarian or an anarchist. The very land they are standing on was seized from another people by government and redistributed to the people participating in those governments. Can it be rectified? No, but with the level that purist libertarians and anarchists like to take things they really should be donating their land to the original owner/users.

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## Ronin Truth

> It is why I am neither a libertarian or an anarchist. The very land they are standing on was seized from another people by government and redistributed to the people participating in those governments. Can it be rectified? No, but with the level that purist libertarians and anarchists like to take things they really should be donating their land to the original owner/users.


 Who did the original owner/users steal it from? The woolly mammoths, dire wolves and saber tooth tigers?

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## klamath

> Who did the original owner/users steal it from? The dinosaurs?


each other.

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## Ronin Truth

> each other.


  Yep, that's much more civilized than when the Europeans showed up.  High tech beats low tech almost every time.

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## compromise

A royal libertarian. But I don't know if I can be both a "royal libertarian" and a "libertarian Republican". Are those two phrases contradictory?

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## Ronin Truth

> A royal libertarian. But I don't know if I can be both a "royal libertarian" and a "libertarian Republican". Are those two phrases contradictory?


  Not if you compromise.

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## Matthew5

> No, but with the level that purist libertarians and anarchists like to take things they really should be donating their land to the original owner/users.


And jeopardize the sweet government handouts they're getting? The Choctaw Indians are just fine with the status quo.

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## Matthew5

Thanks for the post, Guest. I hope you'll join RPF, we need a little variety around here.

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## klamath

> And jeopardize the sweet government handouts they're getting? The Choctaw Indians are just fine with the status quo.


Have you tried to donate your land or are you just assuming they are just fine?

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## Matthew5

> Have you tried to donate your land or are you just assuming they are just fine?


Yes, I have.

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## klamath

> Yes, I have.


Did you try to donate your land to every member of the tribe?

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## Ronin Truth

> Did you try to donate your land to every member of the tribe?


Are they in any danger of running out of places to build casinos?

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## Christian Liberty

At least the Geolibertarian viewpoint tries to create some rationalization for "taxation."  Most minarchist theories that I've seen don't even really try, instead just accepting it as a necessary evil or something like that.  That said, I think Helmuth_Hubener's point is ultimately correct.

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## Natural Citizen



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## Ronin Truth

> At least the Geolibertarian viewpoint tries to create some rationalization for "taxation." Most minarchist theories that I've seen don't even really try, instead just accepting it as a necessary evil or something like that. That said, I think Helmuth_Hubener's point is ultimately correct.



*TAXATION IS THEFT!
*

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## NOT a freeloader

> *TAXATION IS THEFT!
> *


So is landowning.

To prove legal title to land, one must trace it back to the man who stole it. - David Lloyd George

Exclusive land tenure is, however, necessary for obvious purposes. Thus, a tax on that state granted privilege simply serves to lessen the burden of the deprivation of the land that the landholder imposes on others.

One could say that land value taxation would exist to cancel out the previous theft and reduce it's negative side effects. Thus I would actually argue that it is a tax only nominally, but, in reality, is merely compensation for a deprivation.

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## NOT a freeloader

I wanted to address more posts, but life is calling right now. I'll be back on here sooner or later.

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## Origanalist

> I wanted to address more posts, but life is calling right now. I'll be back on here sooner or later.


That's really profound. Thanks for coming and enlightening us.

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## Matthew5

> Did you try to donate your land to every member of the tribe?


Does it matter? How many of the Civilized Tribes would take their land back if it meant they were totally on their own? That means no casino money or government handouts. Besides, there's no more sovereign, Indian nation to give the land back to.

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## heavenlyboy34

hooboy!  This subject again!  I wonder if the OP is friend/family of Roy L...  Anyways, this subject has been done to death.  Just check out Roy L's threads, OP.

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## Matthew5

> hooboy!  This subject again!  I wonder if the OP is friend/family of Roy L...  Anyways, this subject has been done to death.  Just check out Roy L's threads, OP.


Guess I was late to the party. I haven't discussed with a real live Geo before.

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> I wonder if the OP is friend/family of Roy L...


My money is on 56KTarget.  He's still here, but now probably posting as a guest because he does not want more neg rep.  Either way, money says Not a freeloader is not a libertarian at all, let alone a real or royal one.

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## Ronin Truth

> So is landowning.
> 
> “To prove legal title to land, one must trace it back to the man who stole it.” - David Lloyd George
> 
> Exclusive land tenure is, however, necessary for obvious purposes. Thus, a tax on that state granted privilege simply serves to lessen the burden of the deprivation of the land that the landholder imposes on others.
> 
> One could say that land value taxation would exist to cancel out the previous theft and reduce it's negative side effects. Thus I would actually argue that it is a tax only nominally, but, in reality, is merely compensation for a deprivation.


And the criminal organization AKA government ( so called ) obtained its legitimate authority to impose taxes on anything for anything from *NOTHING*.

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## Christian Liberty

> *TAXATION IS THEFT!
> *


I agree, hence why I am not a Geolibertarian or a minarchist.

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## Anti Federalist

Philosotarians...

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## MRK

Good thread.

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## Unregistered

or one could simply work , save up some money and purchase your own land instead of sitting down and having a fit crying-"it was stolen by people who aren't even alive anymore! I shouldn't have to pay for anything! everyone owes me aliving!"

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## helmuth_hubener

NOT a freeloader, your thread is a big disappointment to me.  You get us all fired up, and then leave us out to dry.

Any other Georgists to take up the Torch?

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## PowerOfLiberty

> Who did the original owner/users steal it from? The woolly mammoths, dire wolves and saber tooth tigers?


The blue-green algae of the Precambrian Era are the rightful owners.

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> You get us all fired up, and then leave us out to dry.


Contrary to his name, the OP has not been back because he is standing in all the government handout lines.  Cheese, Obama phones, etc.  The lines are so long anymore, that he has not made it back.

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## Henry Rogue

> I wanted to address more posts, but life is calling right now. I'll be back on here sooner or later.


I can't wait.

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## helmuth_hubener

Here are some of the points I made in another thread about Georgism.

*Table of Contents*
*Some Criticism: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3577112


What is Property?:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3585601


A Right is a Boundary:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3585708


Use and control is what ownership *is*: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3782367


LVT Makes the State the Land-Owner: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3908042
Continued: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3913177
Continued: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post4021701


Regarding land ownership being inherently monopolistic, due to non-homogeneity of land:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3585760
And more about land being homogeneous/heterogenous, and also about the supply of land being fixed: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3630122
And more: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3632718
And more: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3634017
And more: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3639251


Explaining yet again, this time with ASCII graphics, that the transfer of money does not negate injustice: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3587263
Explaining it yet again, this time with song: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3588236

Does everyone have a rightful claim to the universe, or does no one: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...40#post3621340
Continued: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...25#post3623925
Continued: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3627987


Regarding the land-owner's productive function as ultimate decision-maker: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3676602
Land-owner as ultimate decision-maker -- explaining the concept of delegation: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3695459
Mr. L. thinks the owners of car rental businesses do not control nor use their cars: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3790254
So I explain it again: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3790976


Renting just is not that bad: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3685284


Rothbardianism is so awesome, even the crazy Georgists can have their way under it and we can all live in harmony: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3693178


A couple fundamental disagreements between Georgists and us (Or, A Last Hurrah at Attempting to Communicate With a Turing Program): 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3694703


Will land will be used better if there is a Land Value Tax? (Bringing in North Dakota to the discussion): 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3696912


Further elaboration on the Double-Whammy: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3753562


Land-owners also are productive by lowering society's average time preference; If LVT, why not CVT?: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3698271


Grab-bag (No homesteading = no property; power to the state to smash land-owners will back-fire; more taxed =/= more efficient): 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3718319


Again Concerning Public Choice and Plans Back-firing: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post4007650


More Public Choice Common Sense vs. Savior-State Naivety: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...81#post4105181


Grab-bag (How does the newborn get a right rather than the homesteader; Homesteading is a transformation, and the result is a product of labor; wild animals as land): 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3676489


Grab-bag (more detail on production is transformation using parking lot and chainsaw; feudalism rocks; just who's initiating force?; which is it, everyone or no one?): 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3734355


CVT and LVT parallels (Factory vs. Land parallels; abandoned products of labor don't disappear): 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3741002


Land Taxation causes economic destruction: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3741684


Regarding whether rationing resources is murder: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3586982


Property Rights: the Great Problem Solver: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3742768
Continued: The State: the Great Destroyer: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3745338


Grab-bag to MattButler: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3744412


The *only* thing that's holy, the *only* thing that's land, is locations on the Earth's surface: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3748437


You Could Own a Whole Planet, But You'd Have Calculation Problems: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3759398
Continued: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3785571


Hong Kong!: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3782319
Hong Kong! addendum: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3790884


Manners and Mutual Respect (respecting that it's not for sale) vs. LVT Covetousness: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3792359


Knowledge or Wanting: Which one creates the initiation of Force?: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3792458


Cantillon (Land Barony is A-OK!): 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3793697


An Instance of the Impossible -- Legitimately Homesteaded Land: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post4114906


Four of My Idiotic Howlers: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3757325


Nature is not a Vending Machine!: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3919973*


*George wanted to nationalize land: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post4015769*
*Continued: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post4021482*


*Georgism Wrong on Value-Imputation: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post4116328*


*The Question: 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3793722*


Feel free to peruse, all ye Georgists, and if there's some new issue you'd me like to address, or some error in any of my posts (impossible!) then *fire away!*

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## helmuth_hubener

I miss Roy L.  He actually was not bad as a philosopher.  Not the sharpest economist, but then he was set in his ways (I'm sure he was old).  He at least had read some actual economics books.  Looking back over the thread, he truly was an excellent foil.  At the time I was not interested in interfacing with him in particular (instead mostly just using him as a source for ideas) but maybe I should have been.

Bring back Roy L!

Redbluepill?  MattButler?  furface?  Aren't there any folks left willing to strike our private property philosophy at its root: land?  Paging all Georgists, come in Georgists....

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## Krzysztof Lesiak

A world without borders is exactly the same as the vision the elites have for the New World Order, no?

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## cavalier973

To the OP: Something about the homesteading principle.  Also, you're not the boss of me.

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## cavalier973

You Can Always Leave:

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## Unregistered

> I miss Roy L.  He actually was not bad as a philosopher.  Not the sharpest economist, but then he was set in his ways (I'm sure he was old).  He at least had read some actual economics books.  Looking back over the thread, he truly was an excellent foil.  At the time I was not interested in interfacing with him in particular (instead mostly just using him as a source for ideas) but maybe I should have been.
> 
> Bring back Roy L!
> 
> Redbluepill?  MattButler?  furface?  Aren't there any folks left willing to strike our private property philosophy at its root: land?  Paging all Georgists, come in Georgists....


You're being very generous here with yourself and the other on here. He's probably the most intelligent person to have ever graced this forum. I recently came across those threads and have been reading them. Roy slapped you Austrians around like rag dolls. It is a very one sided tale to tell indeed. 

People on this forum don't even understand things like the net present value equation. They also don't understand tax incidence whatsoever: Taxes are not just tacked on to the cost of goods and services. There has to be more scarcity for the market to pay more for the same goods and services. Supply and demand. That's the brilliance of the land value tax: Land cannot be made more scarce as a response to the tax by the "supplier" (in quite because there really is no such thing as a supplier of land). Land is fixed in supply. There is no loss to the economy from such taxation. Only a loss to an economically useless entity.

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## Unregistered

> Contrary to his name, the OP has not been back because he is standing in all the government handout lines.  Cheese, Obama phones, etc.  The lines are so long anymore, that he has not made it back.


I bet you he could stand there every day of his life and still not accumulate as much in government handouts as some of the land welfare title holders, which I assume you consider inspirations and personal successes, in a single month, week, or even day.

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## kcchiefs6465

//

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## helmuth_hubener

> You're being very generous here with yourself and the other on here.


   I made no claims about myself in the post you quoted.  What did you think I was overly-generously crediting myself with?




> He's probably the most intelligent person to have ever graced this forum.


  I was complimentary in my comments towards Roy L in my post.  This statement of yours does not contradict anything I wrote.  He may very well be the most intelligent person on the planet.  I have insufficient information to make such an assessment.  I do think he is intelligent, and I consistently maintained that position throughout the thread, repeatedly stating my opinion that Roy was intelligent, even in the face of unrelenting attacks calling me stupid.  Roy called me stupid many, many, many times.  In the majority of his posts to me, in fact, I think a count would show.  Also, a liar.  I never replied in kind (except once satirically).




> I recently came across those threads and have been reading them. Roy slapped you Austrians around like rag dolls. It is a very one sided tale to tell indeed.


 Excellent!




> People on this forum don't even understand things like the net present value equation. They also don't understand tax incidence whatsoever: Taxes are not just tacked on to the cost of goods and services. There has to be more scarcity for the market to pay more for the same goods and services. Supply and demand. That's the brilliance of the land value tax: Land cannot be made more scarce as a response to the tax by the "supplier" (in quite because there really is no such thing as a supplier of land). Land is fixed in supply. There is no loss to the economy from such taxation. Only a loss to an economically useless entity.


 Well, allow me to welcome you to the forum and this thread!  Please accept my invitation to teach we people all about all these issues of which we have so little understanding.  Thanks, and welcome again!

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> I bet you he could stand there every day of his life and still not accumulate as much in government handouts as some of the land welfare title holders,* which I assume* you consider inspirations and personal successes, in a single month, week, or even day.


Why would assume that?

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## PierzStyx

> It is why I am neither a libertarian or an anarchist. The very land they are standing on was seized from another people by government and redistributed to the people participating in those governments. Can it be rectified? No, but with the level that purist libertarians and anarchists like to take things they really should be donating their land to the original owner/users.



Show me an original owner. And you can't just hand wave at a bunch of native tribes and say, "Indians." Show me an actual descendant from a legitimate owner. Then we'll talk.

All this is plain stupid. You don't live in a perfect world. And trying to rectify past evils would be an unending pursuit that would lead your society and self into poverty and destruction. All you can do is decide to be better now and work for a better society _now_. Everything else is simply distraction and meaningless philosophical fluff. Its mental masturbation.

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## LibertyRevolution

This thread could use a video on property, here is a Michael Badnarik one:



Start at 4mins if you are impatient.

The whole clip is good and worth watching if you never seen it though.

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## John F Kennedy III

> Hey, I'm up for it.  I was just thinking of starting a thread asking if anyone was up for a new thread an Georgism.  And now, tada!, here's an apparent Georgist shown up like magic.
> 
> Fun, fun, fun!
> 
> For my initial respense:
> 
> All physical objects either are natural resources, or were originally natural resources before being modified by humans.  Thus, all physical property either was once nothing but natural resources, or still is.  Thus, if natural resouces cannot be justly owned by humans, it is difficult to see how _any_ physical property can be justly owned by humans.  All physical property has its orgins in natural resources.


You cannot possibly get a better reply than this ^

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