# News & Current Events > World News & Affairs >  TYT Cenk on Israel offensive

## ShaneEnochs

While I don't think the UN is the solution, I like that he's calling out Israel and basically saying that the US is Israel's bitch.

EDIT - sorry, I don't know how this got posted in Grassroots.  Could a mod move it for me?

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## HOLLYWOOD

Right here Cenk exposes that the US government is owned by Israel


> When Palestinians strike it's Terrorism, when Israel strikes, it's collateral damage... and the US says, YEA!


Want another analogy? Israel has over 5 times as many UN violations/resolutions accused on it than the entire reign of Libya's Mommar Qaddafi. When CIA-Mossad fabricated and backed NTC Terrorists attacked the Libyan government in strategic locations and Qaddafi struck back, Qaddafi was the Bad Guy. When the World's largest Concentration Camp (GAZA) is struck by Israeli Drones and War Planes, and children are killed, the Palestinians are the Bad Guys.

This is how the New World Order works.

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## DanK22

It's my understanding that the rockets launched from Gaza aren't meant to hit specific targets; if that's the case then it is terrorism. It's also my understanding that when Israel launches a strike it is against specific targets, ie. missile warehouse, enemy combatant, rocket launch sites. Where am I wrong?

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## amy31416

On sale at your friendly IDF military surplus store.

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## ShaneEnochs

> It's my understanding that the rockets launched from Gaza aren't meant to hit specific targets; if that's the case then it is terrorism. It's also my understanding that when Israel launches a strike it is against specific targets, ie. missile warehouse, enemy combatant, rocket launch sites. Where am I wrong?


If I strap a bomb to my body and walk into a crowded mall, is that terrorism?  Whether or not someone has a target doesn't have anything to do with if it is terrorism.  The fact that they're not targeting the military or military facilities makes it terrorism.

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## jmdrake

> It's my understanding that the rockets launched from Gaza aren't meant to hit specific targets; if that's the case then it is terrorism. It's also my understanding that when Israel launches a strike it is against specific targets, ie. missile warehouse, enemy combatant, rocket launch sites. Where am I wrong?


So all the "terrorists" have to do is to say they are aiming for military targets and assert that they just have bad aim and then it's not terrorism?

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## UWDude

Israel has killed 20 - 30 Palestinians per Israeli killed. 
Israel has imprisoned 1000's of Palestinians per Israeli captured.
Israel has stolen land.  Period.  Israel refuses to stop building settlements.
Israel refuses statehood so it can continue to assassinate elected leaders on a whim.
Death to Israel.

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## DanK22

Looking back at my post, I wasn't very clear at all. I was addressing Hollywood's point that somehow calling an act for what it is, means the US is owned by Israel. The rocket attacks are acts of terror and recognizing that their sole purpose is to create terror - not to hit a military target (I should have specified in my op) - is not some admission that the US is owned by Israel.

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## misean

I know it's unpopular here,  but I side with Israel in these disputes. That's Israel's land. They continually get attacked by racists. Israel isn't the instigator.  If people stopped blowing themselves up and attacking Israel, there would be no retaliation. Does anyone really believe that Israel is going out of its way to take over the Middle East?

That said, I really don't want the US entangling in these conflicts.

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## HOLLYWOOD

> Looking back at my post, I wasn't very clear at all. I was addressing Hollywood's point that somehow calling an act for what it is, means the US is owned by Israel. The rocket attacks are acts of terror and recognizing that their sole purpose is to create terror - not to hit a military target (I should have specified in my op) - is not some admission that the US is owned by Israel.


Reflecting what most know the actions of Israel, the US has VETOED every single UN resolution against Israel no matter how _heinous_ the crimes, the same crimes that has gotten leaders and their governments of foreign nations assassinated. The last UN resolution was to create a state of Palestine, which was voted My statement holds water of prior Israeli and US government respective actions, but the statement is to reflect Cenk's quote of 


> When Palestinians strike it's Terrorism, when Israel strikes, it's collateral damage... *and the US says, YEA!*


When the US Vetos Paletinian Statehood 14-1 and has Dennis Ross (founder of AIPAC) as the chief envoy... oh well
US Veto stats:
http://multipletext.com/2012/2-america_vetoes_1.html
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/.../usvetoes.html

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## amy31416

> I know it's unpopular here,  but I side with Israel in these disputes. That's Israel's land. They continually get attacked by racists. Israel isn't the instigator.  If people stopped blowing themselves up and attacking Israel, there would be no retaliation. Does anyone really believe that Israel is going out of its way to take over the Middle East?
> 
> That said, I really don't want the US entangling in these conflicts.


How do you justify the settlements and this:



??

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## James Madison

> I know it's unpopular here,  but I side with Israel in these disputes. *That's Israel's land*. They continually get attacked by racists. Israel isn't the instigator.  If people stopped blowing themselves up and attacking Israel, there would be no retaliation. Does anyone really believe that Israel is going out of its way to take over the Middle East?
> 
> That said, I really don't want the US entangling in these conflicts.


No, it isn't. That land was given to the Rothschild Dynasty after WW2 as payment for the UK honoring the Balfour Declaration. Then it was settled by people who haven't a drop of semitic blood in their veins.

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## androidappme

Absolute bull$#@!.

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## HOLLYWOOD

> No, it isn't. That land was given to the Rothschild Dynasty after WW2 as payment for the UK honoring the Balfour Declaration. Then it was settled by people who haven't a drop of semitic blood in their veins.


Yes indeed, League of Nations and the Balfour Declaration... where it all started.

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## androidappme

> How do you justify the settlements and this:
> 
> 
> 
> ??


Continuous wars against Israel. Most of the land the so called Palestinians lost was due to the six day war when Israel had to face all the Arab countries against them. Then they had intifada against Israel, then again they lost the lands.

I would have supported the Palestinian cause if it was a political cause but its 99% religious cause.

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## paulbot24

androidappme is a troll. A very active troll today. Maybe he'll run into Mini-Me or Pcosmar and get his history straightened out.

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## androidappme

> androidappme is a troll. A very active troll today. Maybe he'll run into Mini-Me or Pcosmar and get his history straightened out.


Native Americans say the same. You are occupying their land for 500 years you know.

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## ClydeCoulter

> Continuous wars against Israel. Most of the land the so called Palestinians lost was due to the six day war when Israel had to face all the Arab countries against them. Then they had intifada against Israel, then again they lost the lands.
> 
> I would have supported the Palestinian cause if it was a political cause but its 99% religious cause.


The six day war was Israel against Egypt, Jordan and Syria wasn't it?  How does that give Israel any (so called, what?) Palestinian land?  Zionists brew up conflicts so that it can justify occupation of more land (& landscape in a broader sense).  The state of Israel is only a tool.

edit: And has nothing to do with blood (as in ancestry)

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## androidappme

> The six day war was Israel against Egypt, Jordan and Syria wasn't it?  How does that give Israel any (so called, what?) Palestinian land?  Zionists brew up conflicts so that it can justify occupation of more land (& landscape in a broader sense).  The state of Israel is only a tool.
> 
> edit: And has nothing to do with blood (as in ancestry)


Where did you get this teaching? Can you please tell me where did you first hear it and from whom?

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## marc1888

Israel started the six day war by attacking Egypt.

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## pcosmar

Megaphone,, there's an app for that.

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## paulbot24

> Where did you get this teaching? Can you please tell me where did you first hear it and from whom?


Clyde doesn't confuse Liberalism and Libertarianism in his posts so my money is on ClydeCoulter.

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## ClydeCoulter

> Where did you get this teaching? Can you please tell me where did you first hear it and from whom?


Not taught, researched.  Naming something "Israel" doesn't make it have anything to do with the biblical hebrews.

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## androidappme

> Clyde doesn't confuse Liberalism and Libertarianism in his posts so my money is on ClydeCoulter.


Dang it! I am sorry about my tablets auto-prediction feature. It should be libertarianism.

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## androidappme

> Israel started the six day war by attacking Egypt.


Oh man!

In 1967, the Arab nations surrounding Israel ordered UN Peacekeepers to leave the border areas. They called up their armies and enforced a boycott on shipping going to Israel, which did not have a port. 

What do you do? Starve to death?

Now when shipping is stopped to Gaza, everyone is so concerned. But the fact of the matter is, the Arabs started it first.

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## ClydeCoulter

> Oh man!
> 
> In 1967, the Arab nations surrounding Israel ordered UN Peacekeepers to leave the border areas. They called up their armies and enforced a boycott on shipping going to Israel, which did not have a port. 
> 
> What do you do? Starve to death?
> 
> Now when shipping is stopped to Gaza, everyone is so concerned. But the fact of the matter is, the Arabs started it first.


Like "sanctions"?

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## androidappme

> Like "sanctions"?


Shipping blockades are like sanctions. In 1967, commercial freight service wasn't popular. No food, no clothes, nothing without shipping in those days. 

About sanctions :

Israel and the Quartet said that sanctions would be lifted only when the Palestinian government has met the following demands:

    Renunciation of violence,
    Recognition of Israel by the Hamas government (as the PLO had done), and
    Acceptance of previous agreements between Israel and the Palestinian National Authority.

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## UWDude

> No, it isn't. That land was given to the Rothschild Dynasty after WW2 as payment for the UK honoring the Balfour Declaration. Then it was settled by people who haven't a drop of semitic blood in their veins.


"I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the Synagogue of Satan." (Revelation 2:9)

Zionism was originally a communist movement too, and Israel was meant to be a communist state.

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## UWDude

> Shipping blockades are like sanctions. In 1967, commercial freight service wasn't popular. No food, no clothes, nothing without shipping in those days. 
> 
> About sanctions :
> 
> Israel and the Quartet said that sanctions would be lifted only when the Palestinian government has met the following demands:
> 
>     Renunciation of violence,
>     Recognition of Israel by the Hamas government (as the PLO had done), and
>     Acceptance of previous agreements between Israel and the Palestinian National Authority.


Why does Israel get to make the rules and demands?
It's because we give them $3B a year in awesome death machines.
I can't wait until America doesn't have any more cookies to give them.

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## UWDude

> How do you justify the settlements and this:
> 
> 
> 
> ??


In the original 1947 UN partition plan, The UN gave about 55% of the land to about 31% of the people (the Jews), and this 31% only actually owned 6% of the land which was purchased legitimately.  This is what caused the first war, because the Arabs rejected the plan.

And rightfully so.  Too bad they lost.

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## dillo

> Right here Cenk exposes that the US government is owned by Israel
> 
> Want another analogy? Israel has over 5 times as many UN violations/resolutions accused on it than the entire reign of Libya's Mommar Qaddafi. When CIA-Mossad fabricated and backed NTC Terrorists attacked the Libyan government in strategic locations and Qaddafi struck back, Qaddafi was the Bad Guy. When the World's largest Concentration Camp (GAZA) is struck by Israeli Drones and War Planes, and children are killed, the Pasteurization are the Bad Guys.
> 
> This is how the New World Order works.


 source?

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## Demigod

> It's my understanding that the rockets launched from Gaza aren't meant to hit specific targets; if that's the case then it is terrorism. It's also my understanding that when Israel launches a strike it is against specific targets, ie. missile warehouse, enemy combatant, rocket launch sites. Where am I wrong?


It is not terrorism it is a rocket barrage.When NATO threw cassette bombs in Yugoslavia into populated areas I didn't see a 10 seconds material about it.When a Palestinian fires a garage made rocket into an Israeli city then it is terror and a crime against humanity.

Was the bombing of Drezden a terrorist attack ? No that was a strategical destruction of infrastructure so to have a change of policy in Germany.

Killing with F-16 and killing with RPG`s or IED`s is the same thing, killing and as the saying goes "All is fair in love and war".


.

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## Demigod

> I know it's unpopular here,  but I side with Israel in these disputes. That's Israel's land. They continually get attacked by racists. Israel isn't the instigator.  If people stopped blowing themselves up and attacking Israel, there would be no retaliation. Does anyone really believe that Israel is going out of its way to take over the Middle East?
> 
> That said, I really don't want the US entangling in these conflicts.


See who started first with suicide attacks on the British army stationed in Palestine.The British knew what was going to happen and tried as hard to stop it.But Europe trying to hide under the carpet that instead of fighting against the NAZI`s almost the entire continent was behind them ( some more some less ) started shipping all people of Jewish religion to Palestine and the USA threw their full support behind them.

The Soviets routinely supplied the Arabs with faulty equipment and bad intelligence ,the only ones who had ever really fought against what was going to happen were the British who eventually stopped their support because of the USA and then Israel won.

Since then the whole region has gone to hell,back and now going for a second dip.


.

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## misean

> See who started first with suicide attacks on the British army stationed in Palestine.The British knew what was going to happen and tried as hard to stop it.But Europe trying to hide under the carpet that instead of fighting against the NAZI`s almost the entire continent was behind them ( some more some less ) started shipping all people of Jewish religion to Palestine and the USA threw their full support behind them.
> 
> The Soviets routinely supplied the Arabs with faulty equipment and bad intelligence ,the only ones who had ever really fought against what was going to happen were the British who eventually stopped their support because of the USA and then Israel won.
> 
> Since then the whole region has gone to hell,back and now going for a second dip.
> 
> 
> .


This is 2012, not 1953. Israel won the land. Period. If they get attacked, they have every moral right to hit back as hard as they want.  

I'm not even a fan of Israel. But if the Arabs would stop attacking there wouldn't be a problem. Israel isn't the aggressor. Just because their existence is an inconvenience doesn't mean they don't have a right to exist. They should stand up for themselves.

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## amy31416

> This is 2012, not 1953. Israel won the land. Period. If they get attacked, they have every moral right to hit back as hard as they want.  
> 
> I'm not even a fan of Israel. But if the Arabs would stop attacking there wouldn't be a problem. Israel isn't the aggressor. Just because their existence is an inconvenience doesn't mean they don't have a right to exist. They should stand up for themselves.


A few things:

1. You need to read up on Middle Eastern history, and not some Fox News version of it. The real history of how Israel was formed and their actions there since 1948. They started out as the aggressors and continue to be the aggressors. Dragging us along with them.

2. "Winning" land due to a conflict is illegal, not to mention unethical.

This latest military action was brought on by Israel, directly. Operation Cast Lead was also brought on by Israel when the IDF broke the ceasefire with Hamas. That happened on election night of 2008--convenient, eh?

I don't care whose side you're on, or even that you take a side, but you should know the facts if you're going to join a discussion about it.

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## specsaregood

> 2. "Winning" land due to a conflict is illegal, not to mention unethical.


I disagree.  The only right one has to a piece of land is having the power to take and hold it.

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## DFF

More atypical behavior from the rogue, racist, non-democratic state of "Israel."

Truman may have doomed us all by signing this piece of $#@! into existence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option




> In 2003, Martin van Creveld thought that the Al-Aqsa Intifada then in progress threatened Israel's existence.[22] Van Creveld was quoted in David Hirst's "The Gun and the Olive Branch" (2003) as saying:
> 
> _"We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: 'Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.' I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under."_

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## amy31416

> I disagree.  The only right one has to a piece of land is having the power to take and hold it.


You are SO not invited to my next barbecue.

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## misean

> A few things:
> 
> 1. You need to read up on Middle Eastern history, and not some Fox News version of it. The real history of how Israel was formed and their actions there since 1948. They started out as the aggressors and continue to be the aggressors. Dragging us along with them.
> 
> *2. "Winning" land due to a conflict is illegal, not to mention unethical.*
> 
> This latest military action was brought on by Israel, directly. Operation Cast Lead was also brought on by Israel when the IDF broke the ceasefire with Hamas. That happened on election night of 2008--convenient, eh?
> 
> I don't care whose side you're on, or even that you take a side, but you should know the facts if you're going to join a discussion about it.



I definitely don't know as much as should about the Middle East conflicts. 

The bolded is obviously wrong.  If you win a war, that is your land. If your land gets attacked, you can fight back aggressively. 

Most of the borders of the world are drawn up through military conflicts and settlements. You may not accept this as true. You don't need to be a condescending bitch for something that 99.999% of the rest of the world accepts that as true.

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## DFF

> source?


Hollywood is correct. Read about the Israeli lobby, AIPAC. They literally own almost all our politicians (no, they don't own Ron Paul). Obama, Romney, and virtually everything in between, are ALL whores for Israel and traitors to the United States.

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## amy31416

> I definitely don't know as much as should about the Middle East conflicts. 
> 
> The bolded is obviously wrong.  If you win a war, that is your land. If your land gets attacked, you can fight back aggressively. 
> 
> Most of the borders of the world are drawn up through military conflicts and settlements. You may not accept this as true. You don't need to be a condescending bitch for something that 99.999% of the rest of the world accepts that as true.


International law--it is illegal. Though I will concede that something being illegal doesn't mean it doesn't happen--I do find it quite unethical though.

And you're right, I don't need to be such a condescending bitch sometimes. Sometimes....

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## UWDude

> This is 2012, not 1953. Israel won the land. Period. If they get attacked, they have every moral right to hit back as hard as they want.  
> 
> I'm not even a fan of Israel. But if the Arabs would stop attacking there wouldn't be a problem. Israel isn't the aggressor. Just because their existence is an inconvenience doesn't mean they don't have a right to exist. They should stand up for themselves.


Sweet.  remind me of this quote when the great proletariat rises and takes the land from the gentry.
We have Misean's blessing to take land by force.




> I disagree. The only right one has to a piece of land is having the power to take and hold it.


OMG, is this the same dude that was giving me grief for not respecting business owners property because I am pro-union?
Do you have any idea how hypocritical it is to say property ownership is only based on the ability to be able to hold it?
LoL
I can't believe the inane justifications people will come up with to defend their neo-knights templars.


Are you two listening to yourselves?

ROTFLMAO!

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## Brian4Liberty

> I know it's unpopular here,  but I side with Israel in these disputes. *That's Israel's land.*


Lol.




> I definitely don't know as much as should about the Middle East conflicts. 
> 
> The bolded is obviously wrong.  If you win a war, that is your land.


Ah, might makes right. Greed is good. Covet your neighbor's ass, kill your neighbor. All so biblical.

Can't we all just get along?

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## Brian4Liberty

> 


Cenk hits most of the major points. What is blowback, other than revenge? One act leads to the next, ad infinitum.

All that being said, the people firing rockets are a-holes of the highest order. They fire at innocents, hoping for disproportionate retribution that will no doubt effect more innocents, so that they can gain some small measure of a political advantage. And people with this mindset exist on all sides.

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## amy31416

> Ah, might makes right. Greed is good. Covet your neighbor's ass, kill your neighbor. All so biblical.
> 
> Can't we all just get along?


Remember how Ron Paul was booed for bringing up the Golden Rule? $#@!--that may have been some of our own people doing that.

**sigh**

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## Brian4Liberty

> Remember how Ron Paul was booed for bringing up the Golden Rule? $#@!--that may have been some of our own people doing that.
> 
> **sigh**


Agree, double sigh.

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## amy31416

> Cenk hits most of the major points. What is blowback, other than revenge? One act leads to the next, ad infinitum.
> 
> All that being said, the people firing rockets are a-holes of the highest order. They fire at innocents, hoping for disproportionate retribution that will no doubt effect more innocents, so that they can gain some small measure of a political advantage. And people with this mindset exist on all sides.


All I can say in regards to this is that it's virtually impossible for them to aim rockets at military targets--doesn't make it right. Obviously. Now, more than ever--they need to take the high ground and go for an all-out media campaign to expose Israeli crimes (and the IDF DOES target innocent people, with regularity) and keep pushing for UN recognition (even though I think the UN sucks.) I just don't see any other way out of this mess for them. 

No more rockets. Get the help of "organizations" like Anonymous, groups well-versed with successful peaceful resistance, try to make their homes resistant to mortar shelling and tell their stories--and plaster it all over the internet. Put the story of their children, wives, husbands and grandparents out there--saturate the market with it.

The unfortunate part is that so many are shellshocked by what Israel has done that they shut that part of their lives out.

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## SewrRatt

> Cenk hits most of the major points. What is blowback, other than revenge? One act leads to the next, ad infinitum.
> 
> All that being said, the people firing rockets are a-holes of the highest order. They fire at innocents, hoping for disproportionate retribution that will no doubt effect more innocents, so that they can gain some small measure of a political advantage. And people with this mindset exist on all sides.


People in Gaza don't have the technology to launch targeted rockets. They don't fire "at" anything in particular, other than Israeli-occupied land. They don't care about collateral damage, and that's abhorrent. Israel and the US don't care about collateral damage either, they just happen to have technology that can be targeted. They still manage to kill innocent people all the time.

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## Brian4Liberty

> People in Gaza don't have the technology to launch targeted rockets. They don't fire "at" anything in particular, other than Israeli-occupied land. They don't care about collateral damage, and that's abhorrent. Israel and the US don't care about collateral damage either, they just happen to have technology that can be targeted. They still manage to kill innocent people all the time.


Agree, there is very little difference between targeted and non-targeted when innocents end up getting killed either way.

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## Brian4Liberty

> All I can say in regards to this is that it's virtually impossible for them to aim rockets at military targets--doesn't make it right. Obviously. Now, more than ever--they need to take the high ground and go for an all-out media campaign to expose Israeli crimes (and the IDF DOES target innocent people, with regularity) and keep pushing for UN recognition (even though I think the UN sucks.) I just don't see any other way out of this mess for them. 
> 
> *No more rockets.* Get the help of "organizations" like Anonymous, groups well-versed with successful peaceful resistance, try to make their homes resistant to mortar shelling and tell their stories--and plaster it all over the internet. Put the story of their children, wives, husbands and grandparents out there--saturate the market with it.
> 
> The unfortunate part is that so many are shellshocked by what Israel has done that they shut that part of their lives out.


Agree. 

And the people who fire rockets don't give a damn what happens.

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## UWDude

This really started with the assassination of the hamas leader, who incidentally, was tasked with enforcing Israel's wishes upon the Palestinians.
When I read that the rocket that killed 3 Israelis in the retaliation was Iranian made, I knew what was up.

This obviously is no random conflagration.  Now I am starting to believe those who say the big Petreaus purge is about them refusing to go to war with Iran (which I did not believe before, because I figured Petereaus was just as war happy as any of them).

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## Muwahid

> This is 2012, not 1953. Israel won the land. Period. If they get attacked, they have every moral right to hit back as hard as they want.  
> 
> I'm not even a fan of Israel. But if the Arabs would stop attacking there wouldn't be a problem. Israel isn't the aggressor. Just because their existence is an inconvenience doesn't mean they don't have a right to exist. They should stand up for themselves.


According to who they won? They stole the land then armistice lines were drawn for borders -- they then illegally occupied land in 1963 on top of what they originally stole from the Palestinians, yes illegal even according to the United Nations. Why the hell does Israel hold land in Syria? The Golan heights, why did they take the west bank, and the Gaza strip? 

There are *millions* of displaced Palestinians

Israel continues to treat them as prisoners. I wish I could show you the real plight of the Palestinians. It's like this, if you live in whatever $#@!ty Palestinian territory Israel allows you to live in, you likely don't have running water or clean running water that's only for the Jewish settlements, if you want to go to the town next over you have to go through armed checkpoints just because you're palestinian, because the Palestinian territories are set up like an archipelago, between villages are checkpoints which you get harassed at daily, oh and if Israel wants, it can just take your home. They can just move in, order you out, demolish your home which has probably been in your family for generations, and build a Jewish settlement on it.

What happens if tension is high? Be prepared for indiscriminate bombings, while the rest of the bloodthirsty world CHEERS.

Israel won? Israel's justified? I dare you to see how the Palestinians really live before you make such bold accusations. The Arabs will continue to fight them, as it's their land.

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## puppetmaster

> Sweet.  remind me of this quote when the great proletariat rises and takes the land from the gentry.
> We have Misean's blessing to take land by force.
> 
> 
> 
> OMG, is this the same dude that was giving me grief for not respecting business owners property because I am pro-union?
> Do you have any idea how hypocritical it is to say property ownership is only based on the ability to be able to hold it?
> LoL
> I can't believe the inane justifications people will come up with to defend their neo-knights templars.
> ...



funny $#@!....hey misean and specs, i need a second home....where you live?

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## idiom

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were both terrorism.

If you are slaughtering civilians at random to coax change that terror.

Incidentally attacks on the USS Cole and military facilities are not terrorism, but assymetric guerilla warfare.

1972, Munich, Terror, what Hamas is doing now? Just bad aim. The V2's were 'terror' weapons but they fit the definition of just bloody scary weapons rather than terrorism. Its a meat grinder of attrition. Its hard to imagine either party doing anything to scare the other side into capitulating.

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## HOLLYWOOD

> More atypical behavior from the rogue, racist, non-democratic state of "Israel."
> 
> Truman may have doomed us all by signing this piece of $#@! into existence:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option


What has made this the main factor is Germany has given Israel 5 Dolphin class submarines. This now gives Israel mobile second strike capabilities against any country in the world with nuclear weapons. Launch capabilities are stealth nuclear tipped cruise missiles.

Der Spiegel article for those wanting citations on this forum.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-836671.html

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## amy31416

> This really started with the assassination of the hamas leader, who incidentally, was tasked with enforcing Israel's wishes upon the Palestinians.
> When I read that the rocket that killed 3 Israelis in the retaliation was Iranian made, I knew what was up.
> 
> This obviously is no random conflagration.  Now I am starting to believe those who say the big Petreaus purge is about them refusing to go to war with Iran (which I did not believe before, because I figured Petereaus was just as war happy as any of them).


Can you provide links? Not saying I don't believe you, but I like to check these things for myself and what I've read so far does not match up.

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## Danke

> OMG, is this the same dude that was giving me grief for not respecting business owners property because I am pro-union?
> Do you have any idea how hypocritical it is to say property ownership is only based on the ability to be able to hold it?
> LoL
> I can't believe the inane justifications people will come up with to defend their neo-knights templars.
> 
> 
> Are you two listening to yourselves?
> 
> ROTFLMAO!


I think Specs is just pointing out a fact.

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## UWDude

> Can you provide links? Not saying I don't believe you, but I like to check these things for myself and what I've read so far does not match up.


I can't.  Sorry.  Funnily, I find it amusing i come away with these impressions, because I am pretty sure that is what the media wants.

Most stories mention the use of Iranian made Fajr missiles.  So the reader comes away with two nations in their head:  Israel and Iran.

----------


## amy31416

> I can't.  Sorry.  Funnily, I find it amusing i come away with these impressions, because I am pretty sure that is what the media wants.
> 
> Most stories mention the use of Iranian made Fajr missiles.  So the reader comes away with two nations in their head:  Israel and Iran.


Gotcha.

----------


## pcosmar

*on Israel offensive* 

Israel has been offensive since it was conceived.

----------


## Brett85

Israel has done nothing wrong here.  They're simply defending their own country after an attack by Hamas.

----------


## Muwahid

> Israel has done nothing wrong here.  They're simply defending their own country after an attack by Hamas.


Killing children isn't wrong? 

Israels existence violates Palestinian rights.

----------


## Brett85

> Killing children isn't wrong? 
> 
> Israels existence violates Palestinian rights.


They didn't start the conflict.  They fired back after Hamas launched rockets into Israel.  Was Israel just supposed to sit back and take it and do nothing?

----------


## Agorism

nice find

----------


## Danke

> They didn't start the conflict.


lol

----------


## puppetmaster

> They didn't start the conflict.  They fired back after Hamas launched rockets into Israel.  Was Israel just supposed to sit back and take it and do nothing?


Killing children is wrong, I don't care who does it or if it is intentional or not it is wrong. Israel is not innocent at all in fact quite the opposite, it is evil.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> They didn't start the conflict.  They fired back after Hamas launched rockets into Israel.  Was Israel just supposed to sit back and take it and do nothing?


A full-blown incursion and bombing runs with innocent casualties doesn't help a whole lot.

The essential problem is how does Israel stop these rocket attacks? Who is actually launching them? Who is in control? Is Hamas directing every single rocket shooting fool out there, or are they doing it on their own? The US was in control of Iraq and Afghanistan, yet people still attacked innocents constantly. Who do you blame? Does the buck stop at Bush or Obama for allowing terrorism to occur under their watch? Now apply that to Gaza. Who do you blame? Is there one person that could be assassinated to stop the rockets? Probably not. Is there a certain number of people who could be killed to stop it? Probably not. That leads to the logical conclusion that something else needs to be tried.

----------


## devil21

> It's my understanding that the rockets launched from Gaza aren't meant to hit specific targets; if that's the case then it is terrorism. It's also my understanding that when Israel launches a strike it is against specific targets, ie. missile warehouse, enemy combatant, rocket launch sites, *hospitals, schools, Red Cross sites, food/water/supply lines into Gaza, power plants, roads*. Where am I wrong?


You're not wrong.  You just left out the targets that violate international laws and those that directly impact and target civilians.  I added and bolded them above.

----------


## Brett85

> Killing children is wrong, I don't care who does it or if it is intentional or not it is wrong. Israel is not innocent at all in fact quite the opposite, it is evil.


...Never mind.

----------


## amy31416

> Hating Israel has absolutely nothing to do with supporting a non interventionist foreign policy.  I don't like it when people claim that Ron Paul supporters are anti semites, because many of us aren't.  Many of us are simply opposed to entangling alliances and foreign aid.  Unfortunately, many Ron Paul supporters take it much farther than that and continually spout anti semetic rhetoric.  It's unfortunate that these people make the rest of us look bad.


You can be a rational non-anti-semite and not support Israel's government.

I don't make anyone look bad, Israel's gov't actions make them look bad, because they are bad.

I do not support our current government, nor do I support Israel's, which is ridiculously intertwined with our own. And another thing for you who yell "anti-semite!" at those of us who try desperately to end this god damned conflict with ethical solutions--$#@! you. I was on the side of the Jews when they were oppressed by the Germans, and I'm on the side of the Palestinians when they are oppressed by the Israelis.

It's called philosophical consistency. And your name calling is a bunch of bull$#@!. I am not anti-anyone, except jackasses who try to force their bull$#@! down other people's throats, people who kill, people who steal, people who terrorize, people who torture. If it makes me an anti-semite to be opposed to that, then I'll take the title with honors.

----------


## puppetmaster

> You can be a rational non-anti-semite and not support Israel's government.
> 
> I don't make anyone look bad, Israel's gov't actions make them look bad, because they are bad.
> 
> *I do not support our current government, nor do I support Israel's, which is ridiculously intertwined with our own.* And another thing for you who yell "anti-semite!" at those of us who try desperately to end this god damned conflict with ethical solutions--$#@! you. I was on the side of the Jews when they were oppressed by the Germans, and I'm on the side of the Palestinians when they are oppressed by the Israelis.
> 
> It's called philosophical consistency. And your name calling is a bunch of bull$#@!. I am not anti-anyone, except jackasses who try to force their bull$#@! down other people's throats, people who kill, people who steal, people who terrorize, people who torture. If it makes me an anti-semite to be opposed to that, then I'll take the title with honors.


I pray for the day that people finally stand up to these corrupt governments and abolish them.......I am so ready

----------


## Brett85

> You can be a rational non-anti-semite and not support Israel's government.
> 
> I don't make anyone look bad, Israel's gov't actions make them look bad, because they are bad.
> 
> I do not support our current government, nor do I support Israel's, which is ridiculously intertwined with our own. And another thing for you who yell "anti-semite!" at those of us who try desperately to end this god damned conflict with ethical solutions--$#@! you. I was on the side of the Jews when they were oppressed by the Germans, and I'm on the side of the Palestinians when they are oppressed by the Israelis.
> 
> It's called philosophical consistency. And your name calling is a bunch of bull$#@!. I am not anti-anyone, except jackasses who try to force their bull$#@! down other people's throats, people who kill, people who steal, people who terrorize, people who torture. If it makes me an anti-semite to be opposed to that, then I'll take the title with honors.


Congratulations.  You get to keep the title as the nastiest person on Ron Paul Forums.

----------


## amy31416

> Congratulations.  You get to keep the title as the nastiest person on Ron Paul Forums.


And you get to keep the title of "most supportive of killing innocent people" on the forum

I'll keep mine over yours anyday.

Just curious--what was it that pissed you off? That I'm not actually an anti-semite?

----------


## Brett85

> Just curious--what was it that pissed you off? That I'm not actually an anti-semite?


The f*ck you comment.  I don't ever curse at anyone at these forums, or anyone period.  I didn't call you an anti semite either.  I wasn't speaking to you.  I simply made a general statement.

----------


## amy31416

> The f*ck you comment.  I don't ever curse at anyone at these forums, or anyone period.  I didn't call you an anti semite either.  I wasn't speaking to you.  I simply made a general statement.


Oh. So I should assume that you're talking to some other nameless person who is being critical of Israel's gov't. By making a "general statement" rather than referring to a specific person--you were referring to me and a lot of other people. If you can dish it out--you ought to be able to take it. 

And if cursing bothers you so much, the internet isn't for you. And it is appropriate for me to curse at people who imply that I'm racist when I am not. At least I don't support wanton killing, theft and lies as you seemingly do--at least in this case.

I can't understand how someone is so offended by a "$#@! you" when they are totally okay with killing innocent people.

----------


## Muwahid

> They didn't start the conflict.  They fired back after Hamas launched rockets into Israel.  Was Israel just supposed to sit back and take it and do nothing?


Knowing the media and propaganda I'm surprised you think the narrative of who started it is true. I can show you ample proof hamas not only plays ball with Israel but also does her favors in order to stay in politics, such as arresting members of small resistance groups. 

More times than not if a rocket landed in Israel it wasn't from hamas unless they're retaliating. 

And like I said before their existence violated palestinians rights. If Texas was occupied by china fifty years from now and oppressed Americans and stole their land would you say Texans have a moral right to fight the occupation. 

Israel didn't start it, sounds like an oxymoron. 

If you support Israel for personal reasons fair game. They are your opinions. But to try to  defend their blatantly wrong actions seems silly.

----------


## UWDude

> The f*ck you comment.  I don't ever curse at anyone at these forums, or anyone period.  I didn't call you an anti semite either.  I wasn't speaking to you.  I simply made a general statement.


Personal digs are always veiled as general statements on moderated forums.  It's an old troll trick.*  I wont make mine general though, you have to be an Islamaphobe to not see the injustices of Israel.



*_Did you see that, general statement, not directed at you!_

----------


## devil21

See the link in my sig for a well thought out argument on this topic.  No anti-semitism or hate, just logic.

----------


## androidappme

> Why does Israel get to make the rules and demands?
> It's because we give them $3B a year in awesome death machines.
> I can't wait until America doesn't have any more cookies to give them.


You are not knowledgeable. You need to read more.

The Quartet are the United Nations, the United States, the European Union, and Russia.

Why does Israel have demands?

Because the war is not about a Palestinian statehood or anything (only a small percentage of people are nationalist rest are Islamist) This war is a religious war. The muslims support the Palestinians because its their religious duty. I live in the United Arab Emirates and many Islamic organizations here send money to Hamas because of 'Jerusalem', they consider it as the Holy Site and consider the Jews as apes and pigs and they believe that the Jews must be killed to usher in their Islamic Messiah.

When Ehud Olmert was Prime Minister, he said that Israel will pull out of every Palestinian land with swaps on both sides. with Jerusalem under the U.N, but Abbas said No because he wanted Jerusalem in Islamic hands.

----------


## androidappme

> In the original 1947 UN partition plan, The UN gave about 55% of the land to about 31% of the people (the Jews), and this 31% only actually owned 6% of the land which was purchased legitimately.  This is what caused the first war, because the Arabs rejected the plan.
> 
> And rightfully so.  Too bad they lost.


In 2011, Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas stated that the Arab rejection of the partition plan was a mistake he hoped to rectify.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> I know it's unpopular here,  but I side with Israel in these disputes. That's Israel's land. They continually get attacked by racists. Israel isn't the instigator.  If people stopped blowing themselves up and attacking Israel, there would be no retaliation. Does anyone really believe that Israel is going out of its way to take over the Middle East?
> 
> That said, I really don't want the US entangling in these conflicts.


"if people would stop blowing themselves up..."

As if it were that simple.  Unbelievable.

----------


## Jamesiv1

"To understand the Middle East conflict and especially what's going on in Israel, you must understand that it is a blood-feud between two brothers that goes back 5000 years"
-- Billy Graham

----------


## pcosmar

> "To understand the Middle East conflict and especially what's going on in Israel, you must understand that it is a blood-feud between two brothers that goes back 5000 years"
> -- Billy Graham


That might me true if Zionists were related to Abraham.
They are NOT for the most part.

Khazars are not related. (they are decedents of Japheth)  And many true Jews reject Zionism outright and oppose the State of Israel and it's policies.

There is a conflict between God and Satan though.

----------


## Brett85

> I can't understand how someone is so offended by a "$#@! you" when they are totally okay with killing innocent people.


What evidence do you have that they killed innocent people on purpose?  What exactly is Israel supposed to do when Hamas starts firing rockets at them?  Just sit back and take it and allow their citizens to be killed?

----------


## Brett85

> I wont make mine general though, you have to be an Islamaphobe to not see the injustices of Israel.


I'm not an Islamaphobe, but I'm also not anti Israel.  Hating Israel is not part of supporting a non interventionist foreign policy.  I support closing down all of our foreign bases, ending all foreign aid, opposing pre-emptive war, etc.  But I also support the right of Israel to defend itself.

----------


## pcosmar

> But I also support the right of Israel to defend itself.


What "right" did they have when they were blowing up hotels?

This started long before WWII,, long before the Nazi party was invented.

Zionists were using terrorism to get their way from the start.  right up to their demands for a state and continuing since.

----------


## tod evans

Do ya'll realize that you're debating skirmishes in another country that our country shouldn't be involved with?

It doesn't matter one whit to me who's right or who's wrong, what matters to me is why in the hell is our military involved with no declaration of war.

This bull$#@! is being force fed to TV viewers as relevant to the US because of our "interests"....Yeah right!

Oil is our interest and if war is necessary to secure our interest in oil then for Gods sake declare war, state the objectives and get on with it. 

Otherwise our military needs to come home and leave `em be.

----------


## pcosmar

> Otherwise our military needs to come home and leave `em be.


That would be my first wish,, 
That was one of the reasons I supported Ron Paul,, because he would have gotten us out of it.

That area is headed for a Cataclysmic War, and the Zionists are the main push behind it.
They will drag the whole world into it.

Sad and unfortunate on many levels..
I will oppose it, though there seems no way to avoid it.

I certainly will not support it nor the evil $#@!s that are pushing it.

----------


## Muwahid

> What evidence do you have that they killed innocent people on purpose?  What exactly is Israel supposed to do when Hamas starts firing rockets at them?  Just sit back and take it and allow their citizens to be killed?


What was Israel supposed to do he threw a rock at an armored vehicle

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> What was Israel supposed to do he threw a rock at an armored vehicle


Out of all of the outrages that occur, that's a pretty lame attempt at generating an emotional reaction. People are dying. People are being beaten. People's homes are being stolen or destroyed. People are being unfairly imprisoned. That picture looks like a teenager getting a time out for being a bad boy.

----------


## Brett85

I understand that Israel has made mistakes in the past and hasn't always been right in what they've done.  However, if you're going to criticize Israel for some of the things they've done, I don't see why you wouldn't also criticize Hamas for launching rockets into civilian areas of Israel.  I haven't heard *anyone* condemn Hamas for killing innocent children in Israel.  Again, I have to wonder what hatred for Israel has to do with supporting a non interventionist foreign policy.

----------


## amy31416

> What evidence do you have that they killed innocent people on purpose?  What exactly is Israel supposed to do when Hamas starts firing rockets at them?  Just sit back and take it and allow their citizens to be killed?


1. http://www.haaretz.com/news/goldston...n-sites-1.6956

2. Israel should not intentionally goad Hamas into firing rockets. There were plenty of articles posted here on how Israel broke the cease-fire that caused Hamas to fire again, and led to Cast Lead. And if you're following this thread, I posted an article with plenty of evidence on how Israel broke the truce with Hamas again--which led to this outbreak of violence.

You buy into the narrative that Palestinians are basically evil monkeys flinging poo just because they can. You really don't think that there's something else to the story?

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> I understand that Israel has made mistakes in the past and hasn't always been right in what they've done.  However, if you're going to criticize Israel for some of the things they've done, *I don't see why you wouldn't also criticize Hamas for launching rockets into civilian areas of Israel.*  I haven't heard *anyone* condemn Hamas for killing innocent children in Israel.  Again, I have to wonder what hatred for Israel has to do with supporting a non interventionist foreign policy.


Earlier in this thread, criticism of those firing rockets:




> ...
> All that being said, the people firing rockets are a-holes of the highest order. They fire at innocents, hoping for disproportionate retribution that will no doubt effect more innocents, so that they can gain some small measure of a political advantage. And people with this mindset exist on all sides.





> All I can say in regards to this is that it's virtually impossible for them to aim rockets at military targets--*doesn't make it right. Obviously.* Now, more than ever--they need to take the high ground and go for an all-out media campaign to expose Israeli crimes (and the IDF DOES target innocent people, with regularity) and keep pushing for UN recognition (even though I think the UN sucks.) I just don't see any other way out of this mess for them. 
> 
> No more rockets. ...

----------


## Brett85

> Earlier in this thread, criticism of those firing rockets:


Ok, point taken.  I didn't read through the entire thread.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

There are no lenses of perspective more distorted than those trained on Israel/Palestine.  As far as I am concerned, partisans on both sides of this thing are blinded by prejudgement.  The hard-core Palestine haters annoy me just as much as the hard-core Israel haters.  The situation there now is so bent out of shape and distorted it's impossible for any one person to know the whole truth.  

End all foreign aid, end all foreign involvement, and allow the American people to freely give of their own money in aid to the side they like.  Stop acting like we have the authority to dictate what happens in the region, and it will in all probability work it's own way out soon enough without our involvement.

----------


## presence

> I know it's unpopular here,  but I side with Israel in these disputes. That's Israel's land. They continually get attacked by racists. Israel isn't the instigator.  If people stopped blowing themselves up and attacking Israel, there would be no retaliation. Does anyone really believe that Israel is going out of its way to take over the Middle East?


Gaza was NOT Israel's land prior to 1946, in 1947, in 1967, or now.  It is illegally occupied territory with multiple UN resolutions asserting so.

http://documentaryheaven.com/check-point/
http://documentaryheaven.com/palesti...ill-the-issue/
http://documentaryheaven.com/the-iron-wall/
http://documentaryheaven.com/occupation-101/
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/peace...promised-land/
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/tears-of-gaza/
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/reneg...wish-settlers/
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/zionist-story/

----------


## Meatwasp

> There are no lenses of perspective more distorted than those trained on Israel/Palestine.  As far as I am concerned, partisans on both sides of this thing are blinded by prejudgement.  The hard-core Palestine haters annoy me just as much as the hard-core Israel haters.  The situation there now is so bent out of shape and distorted it's impossible for any one person to know the whole truth.  
> 
> End all foreign aid, end all foreign involvement, and allow the American people to freely give of their own money in aid to the side they like.  Stop acting like we have the authority to dictate what happens in the region, and it will in all probability work it's own way out soon enough without our involvement.


I throughly agree with your statement Gunny.

----------


## klamath

> There are no lenses of perspective more distorted than those trained on Israel/Palestine.  As far as I am concerned, partisans on both sides of this thing are blinded by prejudgement.  The hard-core Palestine haters annoy me just as much as the hard-core Israel haters.  The situation there now is so bent out of shape and distorted it's impossible for any one person to know the whole truth.  
> 
> End all foreign aid, end all foreign involvement, and allow the American people to freely give of their own money in aid to the side they like.  Stop acting like we have the authority to dictate what happens in the region, and it will in all probability work it's own way out soon enough without our involvement.


Dang Gunny I have to stop agreeing with you one of this days. Why we even debating what the HELL those countries are doing. Our only debate should be getting our country OUT!

----------


## Brett85

> Dang Gunny I have to stop agreeing with you one of this days. Why we even debating what the HELL those countries are doing. *Our only debate should be getting our country OUT!*


We have troops in Israel?

----------


## pcosmar

> Again, I have to wonder what hatred for Israel has to do with supporting a non interventionist foreign policy.


I would love to have a non-interventionist Foreign Policy.
The Fact is,, we do not. We are in fact deeply involved,, up to our necks in it.  It does affect me..

And as a Christian believer I find that supporting and advancing Satan's agenda is abhorrent.

I do see the Zionists as an invading and occupying force,, with full backing and collusion of the US and UN.

It is the Palestinians that are on the defensive. 
Fighting an enemy that has them outgunned, outnumbered and has all the financing of the Rothschild Empire.

I don't want to support it,,, not at all and on several levels.

----------


## pcosmar

> We have troops in Israel?


Yes,, and massive other governmental interests.  Not to mention all the foreign agents in our government who get their orders from Israel.

----------


## presence

We have troops in Israel? 

*Dimona Radar Facility*  has a permanent staff in the hundreds.
*Port of Haifa* serves as a landing point for our 6th fleet.

It was reported we sent 15,000 boys there back in January for indefinate deployment, not sure of their status.

You can bet every member of the IDF is wearing boots we paid for, shooting bullets we paid for, and manning equipment we paid for.

----------


## Brett85

> Yes,, and massive other governmental interests.  Not to mention all the foreign agents in our government who get their orders from Israel.


I didn't realize we actually have foreign bases in Israel.  Like I said, I don't believe that we should have foreign military bases or give out foreign aid to any country.  I simply support the right of Israel to defend itself.

----------


## pcosmar

> I simply support the right of Israel to defend itself.


Interesting. Then you also support the right of North Korea to defend itself??

How about the Drug Cartels? the Hells Angels?

I do believe in self defense. That is why I support the Right of Self Defense of the Palestinians. Many of whom had land and families there for several generations and hundreds of years.

----------


## Brett85

> Interesting. Then you also support the right of North Korea to defend itself??


Sure, if another country invades North Korea or launches rockets at them they certainly have the right to defend the citizens of their country.

----------


## presence

> right of Israel to defend itself.


That's so poetic, if only it were true.  

Israel defending self = bulldozing long standing muslim homes. in occupied lands, building settlement homes, waiting for militants to lob a warhead free home made rocket at their lost homes... then use US made 1000lb warhead on more muslim homes in "defense" before bulldozing them.... building settlements.... over and over again since 1947.

----------


## klamath

> We have troops in Israel?


 Minimal US troops are in israel. What I mean by "out" is all intervention including aid.

----------


## Muwahid

> Out of all of the outrages that occur, that's a pretty lame attempt at generating an emotional reaction. People are dying. People are being beaten. People's homes are being stolen or destroyed. People are being unfairly imprisoned. That picture looks like a teenager getting a time out for being a bad boy.


Oh I'd love to see the reaction if American troops tied a 13 year old American boy to their humvee to stop demonstrators from throwing things at them. 

Sure I could find babies burned with white phosphorus but people might not want to see that and its probably against the rules. 

Imagine your child being used as a human shield.  

It outrages me, maybe because I haven't been desensitized to brown people being treated like $#@!.

----------


## UWDude

> End all foreign aid, end all foreign involvement, and allow the American people to freely give of their own money in aid to the side they like.  Stop acting like we have the authority to dictate what happens in the region, and it will in all probability work it's own way out soon enough without our involvement.


And when that happens, I'll shut up about it.
So, I am going to be bitching about this injustice until Armageddon.

----------


## Smart3

> Oh I'd love to see the reaction if American troops tied a 13 year old American boy to their humvee to stop demonstrators from throwing things at them. 
> 
> Sure I could find babies burned with white phosphorus but people might not want to see that and its probably against the rules. 
> 
> *Imagine your child being used as a human shield. * 
> 
> It outrages me, maybe because I haven't been desensitized to brown people being treated like $#@!.


So you'd be pro-Israel, by your own arguments? Israelis never use human shields.

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> That might me true if Zionists were related to Abraham.
> They are NOT for the most part.
> 
> Khazars are not related. (they are decedents of Japheth)  And many true Jews reject Zionism outright and oppose the State of Israel and it's policies.
> 
> There is a conflict between God and Satan though.


Well said sir.

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> I didn't realize we actually have foreign bases in Israel.  Like I said, I don't believe that we should have foreign military bases or give out foreign aid to any country.  I simply support the right of Israel to defend itself.



So the Nazis had the right to defend themselves while they were occupying other people's land? Hell, so the Nazis had the right to genocide a certain group of people as long as they pretended it was self defense?

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> Out of all of the outrages that occur, that's a pretty lame attempt at generating an emotional reaction. People are dying. People are being beaten. People's homes are being stolen or destroyed. People are being unfairly imprisoned. That picture looks like a teenager getting a time out for being a bad boy.

----------


## amy31416

> So you'd be pro-Israel, by your own arguments? Israelis never use human shields.


I have to wonder if you're being serious.

----------


## presence

> So you'd be pro-Israel, by your own arguments?* Israelis never use human shields.*


Because the Israeli supreme court finally outlawed the practice in 2005 to the bitter dismay of the IDF, who APPEALED, lost, and said, 

$#@! it; we'll do it anyway:   


^ _a_ _b_ B'Tselem, "20 July 2006: Israeli Soldiers use civilians as Human Shields in^ _a_ _b_ _c_ "Israel Probes "Human Shield" Allegations", CBS News, 11 April 2007.*^* "Israelis use Palestinian as human shield", _The Denver Post_, April 12, 2007.*^* Israel 'human shield' suspension, BBC News, April 14, 2007*^* "Two IDF soldiers charged with using 9-year-old 'human shield' in Gaza war". Haaretz. March 12, 2010. Retrieved 2010-03-12.*^* "IDF soldiers convicted of using 11-year-old as human shield in Gaza". Haaretz. October 3, 2010. Retrieved 2010-10-03.*^* "Two Israeli soldiers guilty of using human shield in Gaza". BBC News. October 3, 2010.*^* "Israeli troops demoted over Gaza 'human shield' boy". BBC News. November 21, 2010.

*1:20* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu63L7rYrg0
*0:30* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLmxLhp0PtU
*1:07*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTc8uUvcuvQ




> "According to true Jewish values, your lives come before those of the  enemy, whether he is a soldier or a civilian under protection.  Therefore, you are forbidden from endangering your own life for the sake  of the enemy, not even for a civilian," [Rabbi] Shapira declared.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6f5_1287602248

----------


## Brett85

> So the Nazis had the right to defend themselves while they were occupying other people's land? Hell, so the Nazis had the right to genocide a certain group of people as long as they pretended it was self defense?


Israel is defending their own land.  I understand that the UN's decision to give this land to the Jewish people was controversial, but that's ancient history.  If you think that was wrong, the United Nations deserves the blame for that, not the Jewish people.  Why would the Jewish people not accept an offer to have their own homeland?  It wouldn't have made any sense for them to turn down such an offer.

----------


## pcosmar

> Israel is defending their own land.  I understand that the UN's decision to give this land to the Jewish people was controversial, but that's ancient history.  If you think that was wrong, the United Nations deserves the blame for that, not the Jewish people.  Why would the Jewish people not accept an offer to have their own homeland?  It wouldn't have made any sense for them to turn down such an offer.


Not ancient history.. Recent History.

Though Ancient texts warned of and foretold the occupation of the land by "Gog and Magog".

http://www.apfn.org/thewinds/library/khazars.html

----------


## specsaregood

> Israel is defending their own land.  I understand that the UN's decision to give this land to the Jewish people was controversial, but that's ancient history.  If you think that was wrong, the United Nations deserves the blame for that, not the Jewish people.  Why would the Jewish people not accept an offer to have their own homeland?  It wouldn't have made any sense for them to turn down such an offer.


So let's say our current govt came to you and said, "hey, we are gonna give you your neighbors house, free and clear, you just have to throw them out and we'll get your back...you'd take it?  Because, ya know it makes no sense to turn down such an offer.

----------


## Muwahid

> Israel is defending their own land.  I understand that the UN's decision to give this land to the Jewish people was controversial, but that's ancient history.  If you think that was wrong, the United Nations deserves the blame for that, not the Jewish people.  Why would the Jewish people not accept an offer to have their own homeland?  It wouldn't have made any sense for them to turn down such an offer.


ANCIENT HISTORY???? My own uncles fought in the 48 war.  I know a reason not to accept. Its on top of someone elses land. And Jews always had a home in Palestine to begin with. Many Jews stand against Israel. 

If the government offers you your neighbors land you gonna just take it with government force because its free? Astounded by the logic here.

Edit: didn't even see specs' reply saying the same thing

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## ClydeCoulter

> ANCIENT HISTORY???? My own uncles fought in the 48 war.  I know a reason not to accept. Its on top of someone elses land. And Jews always had a home in Palestine to begin with. Many Jews stand against Israel. 
> 
> If the government offers you your neighbors land you gonna just take it with government force because its free? Astounded by the logic here.
> 
> Edit: didn't even see specs' reply saying the same thing


Just because specs said the same thing doesn't make it any less true  +rep to both for common sense

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## specsaregood

> Just because specs said the same thing doesn't make it any less true


Now just to be clear, I didn't say that I wouldn't take the offer.

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## Meatwasp

I don't give a $#@! what they do there. As my husband used to say," $#@! them all but 6 and save them for pall bearers."
But for Gods sakes quit giving anyone there our tax dollars to kill people.

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## Brian4Liberty

> Oh I'd love to see the reaction if American troops tied a 13 year old American boy to their humvee to stop demonstrators from throwing things at them. 
> 
> Sure I could find babies burned with white phosphorus but people might not want to see that and its probably against the rules. 
> 
> Imagine your child being used as a human shield.  
> 
> It outrages me, maybe because I haven't been desensitized to brown people being treated like $#@!.


Spare me the hysteria and accusations of racism.

So what punishment do you propose for teenagers that throw rocks or vandalize? Fines? Jail? Community service? A spanking?

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## misean

> So the Nazis had the right to defend themselves while they were occupying other people's land? Hell, so the Nazis had the right to genocide a certain group of people as long as they pretended it was self defense?


So you are clearly saying that the Israelis are similar to the Nazi's. I would like to know how far the bat$#@! crazy goes.

If different Indian tribes decided to blow themselves up in major cities in retaliation for taking Indian land years ago, would you think that is justified? If the suicide bombings persisted and treaties continued to be broken by the Indians would you compare the United States government to Nazis if the government retaliated against the suicide bombings by dropping bombs on Indian reservations? 

Are Native Americans in the above scenario that different from Palestinians?

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## Brett85

> So let's say our current govt came to you and said, "hey, we are gonna give you your neighbors house, free and clear, you just have to throw them out and we'll get your back...you'd take it?  Because, ya know it makes no sense to turn down such an offer.


It's not really the same thing, because Israel belonged to the Jewish people originally.  It was land that was promised to the Jewish people in the Old Testament.  They were then kicked out of their land by the Romans around 70 AD.  So the correct analogy would be if you originally owned a house, were kicked out by someone else who then took over the house, and then that person left the house eventually and a different person moved in.  Then someone comes along and offers to kick the current occupants out of the house so that you can get the house back that you first owned, and you accept the offer.

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## amy31416

> It's not really the same thing, because Israel belonged to the Jewish people originally.  It was land that was promised to the Jewish people in the Old Testament.  They were then kicked out of their land by the Romans around 70 AD.  So the correct analogy would be if you originally owned a house, were kicked out by someone else who then took over the house, and then that person left the house eventually and a different person moved in.  Then someone comes along and offers to kick the current occupants out of the house so that you can get the house back that you first owned, and you accept the offer.


1. Hebrews were not the first to rule that region, they didn't even come close to being the longest rulers. And unless there's some 1,000+year-old Hebrews out there...invalid.
2. God is not a real estate agent and has nothing to do with a UN created state, unless you think the UN is the hand of God at work.
3. As has been said, there's not really even much of a blood relation to European Jews--who make up the majority. You could make a partial argument for Sephardic Jews--but even they're treated as 2nd tier citizens in Israel.

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## Muwahid

> Spare me the hysteria and accusations of racism.
> 
> So what punishment do you propose for teenagers that throw rocks or vandalize? Fines? Jail? Community service? A spanking?


Children should not be used as human shields. What is this first grade? You're the one saying it was a failure at conjuring an emotional reaction; I wasn't trying to even do that I don't demagogue the issues. I was making a point that Israel grossly over reacts. 

Israel is an apartheid state. Unfort for Israel nothing they do except leave is moral. 

Btw wasn't calling you racist. Try to relax.

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## UWDude

> So you are clearly saying that the Israelis are similar to the Nazi's. I would like to know how far the bat$#@! crazy goes.
> 
> If different Indian tribes decided to blow themselves up in major cities in retaliation for taking Indian land years ago, would you think that is justified? If the suicide bombings persisted and treaties continued to be broken by the Indians would you compare the United States government to Nazis if the government retaliated against the suicide bombings by dropping bombs on Indian reservations? 
> 
> Are Native Americans in the above scenario that different from Palestinians?


Are you asking was AIM justified?  Hell yes it was, and even the government agreed, since charges were eventually dropped.

Oh, and we aren't building settlements on Indian reservations, and forcefully bulldozing Indian houses to build new apartment complexes for white Christians only.  That's what we would have to be doing to be anywhere near analogous to Israel... ...not to mention the killings and imprisoning of tens of thousands of Indians a decade.

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## RickyJ

> Israel has killed 20 - 30 Palestinians per Israeli killed. 
> Israel has imprisoned 1000's of Palestinians per Israeli captured.
> Israel has stolen land.  Period.  Israel refuses to stop building settlements.
> Israel refuses statehood so it can continue to assassinate elected leaders on a whim.
> Death to Israel.


I see you have been banned. Don't know if it was this comment or not, but you posted facts all the way until the last sentence. That was just your opinion and a statement. Next time stick to the facts only and people can make their own minds up about Israel.

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