# Lifestyles & Discussion > Personal Health & Well-Being >  Many people take dangerously high amounts of ibuprofen

## donnay

> *Many people take dangerously high amounts of ibuprofen*
> 
> Lisa Rapaport
> 
> (Reuters Health) - Many adults who use ibuprofen and other so-called nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory (NSAID) drugs take too much, increasing their risk of serious side effects like internal bleeding and heart attacks, a U.S. study suggests.
> 
> About 15 percent of adults taking ibuprofen (Motrin, Advil) or other NSAIDs like aspirin, naproxen (Aleve), celecoxib (Celebrex), meloxicam (Mobic) and diclofenac (Voltaren) exceeded the maximum recommended daily dose for these drugs, the study found.
> 
> NSAIDs are among the most commonly used medicines in the U.S. and worldwide, said lead study author Dr. David Kaufman of Boston University.
> ...


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKBN1FS336

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## Zippyjuan

Maybe the government should restrict/ ban them instead of letting people buy and use them for whatever they want.

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## timosman

> Maybe the government should restrict/ ban them instead of letting people buy and use them for whatever they want.


Ha ha ha, so funny ...... You Zippy and the rest of the trolls  are what makes this forum unique.

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## Zippyjuan

> Ha ha ha, so funny ...... You Zippy and the rest of the trolls  are what makes this forum unique.


Thank you for your informative contribution to the discussion.

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## donnay

> Maybe the government should restrict/ ban them instead of letting people buy and use them for whatever they want.


Maybe people will read this warning and stop taking this crap.

The p*harm*aceutical industry needs for you to be a life-long customer.

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## Zippyjuan

> *Maybe people will read this warning and stop taking this crap.
> *
> The p*harm*aceutical industry needs for you to be a life-long customer.


Yes, they should read the warnings the government makes the manufacture include in the package.  Personal responsibility?

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## timosman

> Thank you for your informative contribution to the discussion.


The defining feature of a quality troll is the ability to stay in character forever. Most medium to low quality trolls would have dropped out but, as we can see, this one is still going strong. Never surrender. Viva la revolución.

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## Zippyjuan

> The defining feature of a quality troll is the ability to stay in character forever. Most medium to low quality trolls would have dropped out but, as we can see, this one is still going strong. Never surrender. Viva la revolución.


Thank you for your informative contribution to the discussion.

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## Swordsmyth

> Maybe the government should restrict/ ban them instead of letting people buy and use them for whatever they want.



Maybe you should be banned.

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## Zippyjuan

> Maybe you should be banned.


Thank you for your informative contribution to the discussion.

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## timosman

> Yes, they should read the warnings the government makes the manufacture include in the package.  Personal responsibility?


You should avoid topics of personal nature as it requires one to have personality, clearly missing in your case. You'd better stick to graphs and charts. Your broken English does not help either.

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## Zippyjuan

> You should avoid topics of personal nature as it requires one to have personality, clearly missing in your case. You'd better stick to graphs and charts. Your broken English does not help either.


Thank you for your informative contribution to the discussion.

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## donnay

> Yes, they should read the warnings the government makes the manufacture include in the package.  Personal responsibility?


The warning governments places are pretty vague, people need to know where they can see actually studies.  Transparency.

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## Zippyjuan

> The warning governments places are pretty vague, people need to know where they can see actually studies.  Transparency.


You are right- they should include more information- like the actual likelyhood of a rare side effect occurring (people who don't read the insert in the first place aren't going to go looking for any studies).  If it happens in one in a million cases, it should say so- otherwise people see a scary potential event and think it is more likely to happen than it actually does. "Tamliflu causes seizures!" (five potential cases in the US over a seven year period).

From the "article". 




> *Even when people do read the label, they may still ignore it.*

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## angelatc

> Maybe the government should restrict/ ban them instead of letting people buy and use them for whatever they want.


He's trolling Donna here, and rightfully so.   Plus rep.

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## angelatc

> The warning governments places are pretty vague, people need to know where they can see actually studies.  Transparency.


The government should force the manufacturers to provide access to studies that you don't actually believe.  Makes sense.  All Libertarians are big on mandatory labeling.




> “In my opinion NSAIDs should not be available as an over-the-counter drug, because of all their deleterious effects,” Vogt, who wasn’t involved in the study, said by email.


Aspirin is a NSAID.  These bastards are horrible, horrible people.   * This whole concept that people aren't capable of even taking a headache pill without the permission of an overlord is what the headline should be referring to in a Libertarian political forum.*

But God forbid that liberty get in the way of the science-impaired homeopaths, who are no different than Dr Vogt - they fancy themselves as overlords.

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## Intoxiklown

> “These drugs can have serious side effects, including gastrointestinal bleeding and heart attacks



This article is missing one vital fact as proven out by the quoted excerpt.....

The above side effects is related to people taking NSAIDs and acetaminophen drugs together. NSAIDs themselves aren't auto-dangerous until combined with people self diagnosing, sadly usually people with some form of chronic pain and thinking over the counter means safe regardless of size of dose or mixing with other over the counters.   

I live with two herniated discs (L4 and L5) with protrusions after my back injuries, and that is after emergency nuero surgery where they removed disc material and part of a vertebrae to relieve pressure on my sciatic nerve which was growing into bone from the pressure (meaning I'm one of the privileged few to have experienced a level of pain not many get to), and take Meloxicam daily. I take it as it's only once daily (prescription only) to help maintain relief from inflammation, as well as keeping levels of NSAIDs low as I also have my "bad day" prescription (only 45 per month) for Norcos 10mg which is hydrocodone with half the levels of acetaminophen than found in say Lortab or Lorcet. 

This small regiment of pain killers keeps me out of chronic pain clinics as well as having more surgery done (which I will eventually have to have, but am in no hurry for). So understand....and don't take this personally...but that "crap" you think people shouldn't take keeps me out of an operating room, allows me to live without eating a $#@! ton of narcotics daily, as well as allows me to not spend 80% of my waking time per month in bed.

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## donnay

> The government should force the manufacturers to provide access to studies that you don't actually believe.  Makes sense.  All Libertarians are big on mandatory labeling.


The government protects them not us, or haven't you figure that out yet?






> Aspirin is a NSAID.  These bastards are horrible, horrible people.   * This whole concept that people aren't capable of even taking a headache pill without the permission of an overlord is what the headline should be referring to in a Libertarian political forum.*
> 
> But God forbid that liberty get in the way of the science-impaired homeopaths, who are no different than Dr Vogt - they fancy themselves as overlords.


Synthetic Aspirin pill is just a little over 100 years old.  The Egyptians were using willow bark to relieve pain long before they understood the benefits of salicylic acid.

Mixing aspirin with acetaminophens can cause Kidney damage. (*1*)

In another study it pointed out that taking an aspirin every day can take a toll on your liver. (*2*)

In another study it pointed out that the leading cause of stomach ulcers is using aspirin regularly.  (*3*)

Then there is the problem with Reyes Syndrome in children who take aspirin during the flu or chickenpox.  (*4*)


There are no none side-effects for--- Turmeric, Ginger, Bromelain (enzyme found in pineapple), Ceylon Cinnamon or Magnesium.  All anti-inflammatory.  Did you also know that the aspirin ingredient can also be found in beans, peas, jasmine and clover?  Maybe people should listen to Hippocrates more: * “Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food.”*

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## Intoxiklown

> There are no none side-effects for--- Turmeric, Ginger, Bromelain (enzyme found in pineapple), Ceylon Cinnamon or Magnesium.  All anti-inflammatory.  Did you also know that the aspirin ingredient can also be found in beans, peas, jasmine and clover?  Maybe people should listen to Hippocrates more: * “Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food.”*


Our primary provider used by my wife and I is VERY big on natural treatments like you're talking about. It's an MD my wife works with that she's known for a few years through the ER she works at. He's also a Pain Management MD (not many people know that doctors have to have special training to work pain management), which should speak to people doubting your point. 

However, I hope that he also insures you understand that not every case can be treated naturally. 

Donnay....it's not that you're wrong about your view. It's that you're applying unrealistic expectations. Imagine someone saying that since firearms can't 100% guarantee your safety that they are obviously nothing more than a ploy put to us to make money. I know you'd agree that is an unrealistic view, and yet you see medicine through that lens.

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## donnay

> Our primary provider used by my wife and I is VERY big on natural treatments like you're talking about. It's an MD my wife works with that she's known for a few years through the ER she works at. He's also a Pain Management MD (not many people know that doctors have to have special training to work pain management), which should speak to people doubting your point. 
> 
> However, I hope that he also insures you understand that not every case can be treated naturally. 
> 
> Donnay....it's not that you're wrong about your view. It's that you're applying unrealistic expectations. Imagine someone saying that since firearms can't 100% guarantee your safety that they are obviously nothing more than a ploy put to us to make money. I know you'd agree that is an unrealistic view, and yet you see medicine through that lens.


I am providing information so people can make up their minds--I know what works for me.

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## Zippyjuan

> The government protects them not us, or haven't you figure that out yet?
> 
> 
> There are* no none side-effects for*--- Turmeric, Ginger, Bromelain (enzyme found in pineapple), Ceylon Cinnamon or Magnesium.  All anti-inflammatory.  Did you also know that the aspirin ingredient can also be found in beans, peas, jasmine and clover?  Maybe people should listen to Hippocrates more: * “Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food.”*


Potential tumeric side effects:  https://www.webmd.com/vitamins-suppl...gredientid=662




> Special Precautions & Warnings:
> Pregnancy and breast-feeding: During pregnancy and while breast-feeding, turmeric is LIKELY SAFE when taken by mouth in amounts commonly found in food. However, turmeric is LIKELY UNSAFE when taken by mouth in medicinal amounts during pregnancy. It might promote a menstrual period or stimulate the uterus, putting the pregnancy at risk. Do not take medicinal amounts of turmeric if you are pregnant. There is not enough information to rate the safety of medicinal amounts of turmeric during breast-feeding. It is best not to use it.
> 
> Gallbladder problems: Turmeric can make gallbladder problems worse. Do not use turmeric if you have gallstones or a bile duct obstruction. 
> 
> Bleeding problems: Taking turmeric might slow blood clotting. This might increase the risk of bruising and bleeding in people with bleeding disorders. 
> 
> Diabetes: Curcumin, a chemical in turmeric, might decrease blood sugar in people with diabetes. Use with caution in people with diabetes as it might make blood sugar too low. 
> 
> ...



Ginger potential side effects:  https://www.webmd.com/vitamins-suppl...61-GINGER.aspx




> Ginger is POSSIBLY SAFE when it is applied to the skin appropriately, short-term. It might cause irritation on the skin for some people.
> 
> Special Precautions & Warnings:
> Pregnancy: Ginger is POSSIBLY SAFE when taken by mouth for medicinal uses during pregnancy. But using ginger during pregnancy is controversial. There is some concern that ginger might affect fetal sex hormones. There is also a report of miscarriage during week 12 of pregnancy in a woman who used ginger for morning sickness. However, studies in pregnant women suggest that ginger can be used safely for morning sickness without harm to the baby. The risk for major malformations in infants of women taking ginger does not appear to be higher than the usual rate of 1% to 3%. Also there doesn't appear to be an increased risk of early labor or low birth weight. There is some concern that ginger might increase the risk of bleeding, so some experts advise against using it close to your delivery date. As with any medication given during pregnancy, it's important to weigh the benefit against the risk. Before using ginger during pregnancy, talk it over with your healthcare provider. 
> 
> Breast-feeding: There is not enough reliable information about the safety of taking ginger if you are breast feeding. Stay on the safe side and avoid use. 
> 
> Bleeding disorders: Taking ginger might increase your risk of bleeding. 
> 
> ...


Bromelain potential side effects: https://www.webmd.com/vitamins-suppl...name=bromelain




> Bromelain is POSSIBLY SAFE for most people when taken in appropriate amounts. Bromelain may cause some side effects, such as diarrhea and stomach and intestinal discomfort. Bromelain may also cause allergic reactions, especially in people who have other allergies. If you have allergies, be sure to check with your healthcare provider before taking bromelain.
> 
> Special Precautions & Warnings:
> Pregnancy and breast-feeding: Not enough is known about the use of bromelain during pregnancy and breast-feeding. Stay on the safe side and avoid use.
> 
> Allergies: If you are allergic to pineapple, latex, wheat, celery, papain, carrot, fennel, cypress pollen, or grass pollen, you might have an allergic reaction to bromelain.
> 
> Surgery: Bromelain might increase the risk of bleeding during and after surgery. Stop using bromelain at least 2 weeks before a scheduled surgery.


Ceylon Cinnamon: https://www.webmd.com/diet/supplement-guide-cinnamon




> Heavy use of cinnamon may irritate the mouth and lips, causing sores. In some people, it can cause an allergic reaction. Applied to the skin, it might cause redness and irritation.
> 
> Risks. Very high quantities of cassia cinnamon *may be toxic*, particularly in people with liver problems. Because cinnamon may lower blood sugar, people with diabetes may need to adjust their treatment if they use cinnamon supplements. An ingredient in some cinnamon products, coumarin, may cause liver problems; but the amount of this compound ingested is usually so small that this wouldn’t happen for most people. Given the lack of evidence about its safety, cinnamon -- as a treatment -- is not recommended for children or for women who are pregnant or breastfeeding.
> 
> Interactions. If you take any medication regularly, talk to your doctor before you start using cinnamon supplements. They could interact with antibiotics, diabetes drugs, blood thinners, heart medicines, and others.

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## Zippyjuan

> The government protects them not us, or haven't you figure that out yet?
> 
> Then there is the problem with Reyes Syndrome in children who take aspirin during the flu or chickenpox.  (*4*)


Reyes Syndrome is very rare- even according to your link.  It effects about 0.15 people out of 100,000.  As for aspirin,  according to your own link:




> The suggestion of a defined cause-effect relationship between aspirin intake and Reye syndrome in children is* not supported by sufficient facts.*






> *Mixing aspirin with acetaminophens can cause Kidney damage*. (1)


From that link:




> The majority of large epidemiologic studies have* failed to substantiate an association between heavy non-steroidal anti-inflammatory (NSAID) use and CKD in healthy individuals.* The prospective paper by Curhan et al.24) found no increased risk for renal impairment at 11 years follow-up despite regular NSAID use. Regular ibuprofen users in the NHANES had no change in renal function compared with controls.





> The development of renal insufficiency as a consequence of chronic analgesic consumption* remains unproven despite a large body of epidemiologic research.*






> *In another study it pointed out that taking an aspirin every day can take a toll on your liver.*


Link describes a single case- it is not a study. I did find one though:  https://academic.oup.com/jnci/articl...3/1808/1044436




> Conclusions
> 
> Aspirin use was associated with *reduced risk* of developing HCC and of death due to CLD whereas nonaspirin NSAID use was only associated with reduced risk of death due to CLD.


CLD being "Chronic Liver Disease" and HCC being "Hepatocellular carcinoma" or cancer of the liver.   Aspirin use reduced the risks for both.

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## Zippyjuan

> Did you also know that the aspirin ingredient can also be found in beans, peas, jasmine and clover? Maybe people should listen to Hippocrates more: “Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food.”


True that salicylic acid can be found naturally in some plants- but how much?  Green beans and peas have "negligible" amounts according to this site:  http://www.food-info.net/uk/qa/qa-fi27.htm




> What is salicylic acid and in which foods does it occur?
> Salicylic acid is a colorless, crystalline organic acid that melts at 159°C; it is soluble in alcohol but is only slightly soluble in water. Salicylic acid is an ingredient used in many over-the-counter acne medications.
> 
> Fruits and vegetables are natural sources of salicylic acid, with fruits having large amounts of salicylates, particularly berries. Some herbs and spices contain quite high amounts, and meat, poultry, fish, eggs and dairy products all have little to no salicylates. Of the legumes, seeds, nuts, and cereals, only almonds, water chestnuts and peanuts have significant amounts. The table below gives more examples of foods containing salicylates:


Mushrooms are in the "very high" category- how much is that?  ">1 mg" per 100 grams.  A low dose aspirin may contain 325 mg.  At 1 mg/ 100 grams you would need to consume 350 x 100 or 35,000 grams of mushrooms - or 77 pounds of them.  Go ahead- eat your aspirin.

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## navy-vet

> Potential tumeric side effects:  https://www.webmd.com/vitamins-suppl...gredientid=662
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ginger potential side effects:  https://www.webmd.com/vitamins-suppl...61-GINGER.aspx
> 
> 
> 
> ...


TOUCHE' that had to sting....

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## Zippyjuan

> TOUCHE' that had to sting....


Everything has potential side effects.  It depends on genetics, existing conditions, and dose.

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## navy-vet

> The government should force the manufacturers to provide access to studies that you don't actually believe.  Makes sense.  All Libertarians are big on mandatory labeling.
> 
> 
> 
> Aspirin is a NSAID.  These bastards are horrible, horrible people.   * This whole concept that people aren't capable of even taking a headache pill without the permission of an overlord is what the headline should be referring to in a Libertarian political forum.*
> 
> But God forbid that liberty get in the way of the science-impaired homeopaths, who are no different than Dr Vogt - they fancy themselves as overlords.


Out of ammo here! Can someone give Angela some for me?

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## donnay

> Potential tumeric side effects:  https://www.webmd.com/vitamins-suppl...gredientid=662



*10,000 peer-reviewed articles*

*2560 Abstracts with Turmeric Research*






> Ginger potential side effects:  https://www.webmd.com/vitamins-suppl...61-GINGER.aspx


*The Amazing and Mighty Ginger*

*Anti-Oxidative and Anti-Inflammatory Effects of Ginger in Health and Physical Activity: Review of Current Evidence*

*Effects of a ginger extract on knee pain in patients with osteoarthritis.*

*Ginger*

*Ginger's Many Evidence-Based Health Benefits Revealed*





> Bromelain potential side effects: https://www.webmd.com/vitamins-suppl...name=bromelain


*Bromelain*

*A double blind, randomised, parallel group study on the efficacy and safety of treating acute lateral ankle sprain with oral hydrolytic enzymes.*

*Bromelain as a Treatment for Osteoarthritis: a Review of Clinical Studies*

*Bromelain as an adjunctive treatment for moderate-to-severe osteoarthritis of the knee: a randomized placebo-controlled pilot study.*

*Research: Pineapple Enzyme Kills Cancer Without Killing You*




> Ceylon Cinnamon: https://www.webmd.com/diet/supplement-guide-cinnamon


*Influence of ginger and cinnamon intake on inflammation and muscle soreness endued by exercise in Iranian female athletes.*

*Anti-inflammatory activity of cinnamon (C. zeylanicum and C. cassia) extracts - identification of E-cinnamaldehyde and o-methoxy cinnamaldehyde as the most potent bioactive compounds.*

*Glycated haemoglobin and blood pressure-lowering effect of cinnamon in multi-ethnic Type 2 diabetic patients in the UK: a randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind clinical trial.*

*The Cinnamon-derived Michael Acceptor Cinnamic Aldehyde Impairs Melanoma Cell Proliferation, Invasiveness, and Tumor Growth*

*Cinnamon and health*

*Trans-cinnamaldehyde from Cinnamomum zeylanicum bark essential oil reduces the clindamycin resistance of Clostridium difficile in vitro.*

*Two New Cinnamon Studies Show Surprising Health Benefits Not Previously Appreciated*

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## donnay

> True that salicylic acid can be found naturally in some plants- but how much?  Green beans and peas have "negligible" amounts according to this site:  http://www.food-info.net/uk/qa/qa-fi27.htm
> 
> 
> 
> Mushrooms are in the "very high" category- how much is that?  ">1 mg" per 100 grams.  A low dose aspirin may contain 325 mg.  At 1 mg/ 100 grams you would need to consume 350 x 100 or 35,000 grams of mushrooms - or 77 pounds of them.  Go ahead- eat your aspirin.


Nah I think I will stick to eating right, rather than using synthetic aspirin.

The point here (which I know escapes you) is eating the right foods (everyday) are going to knock out inflammation.  Inflammation is the root to many chronic illnesses.

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## Danke

> *10,000 peer-reviewed articles*
> 
> *2560 Abstracts with Turmeric Research*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The Amazing and Mighty Ginger*
> ...






> TOUCHE' that had to sting....



...

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## Zippyjuan

> Nah I think I will stick to eating right, rather than using synthetic aspirin.
> 
> The point here (which I know escapes you) is eating the right foods (everyday) are going to knock out inflammation.  Inflammation is the root to many chronic illnesses.


Eating a balance diet including a variety of foods and getting plenty of exercise is definitely going to help your health.  But the occasional aspirin or other medicine is also not likely going to kill you.  As with most things, problems come when people overdo things. All foods have good things to offer you- as well as some potential negative side effects for at least some people.

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## euphemia

> There are no none side-effects for--- Turmeric, Ginger, Bromelain (enzyme found in pineapple), Ceylon Cinnamon or Magnesium.  All anti-inflammatory.  Did you also know that the aspirin ingredient can also be found in beans, peas, jasmine and clover?  Maybe people should listen to Hippocrates more: * “Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food.”*


Those might work for minor aches and pains, but for something like herniated discs or very advanced arthritis, they are not helpful. And according to my chiro, the active ingredient is in pineapple stems, not the fruit.

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## donnay

> Those might work for minor aches and pains, but for something like herniated discs or very advanced arthritis, they are not helpful.


If you get down that inflammation (through diet, exercise and supplementation) you'd be surprised.  I know a person with severe RA and how he eliminated the RA symptoms with a strict diet and exercise--basically a life-style change.  This person drank nearly 2 gallons of sweet tea a day, and sweet tea is bad for the bones. (*1*), (*2*), (*3*)




> And according to my chiro, the active ingredient is in pineapple stems, not the fruit.


That is correct, it is an anti-inflammatory.

Again the key here is "inflammation," and how to get it down and keep it down naturally.

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## donnay

> Ceylon Cinnamon: https://www.webmd.com/diet/supplement-guide-cinnamon


Oh and I forgot to point out one important thing... The warning on liver damage is more with Cassia Cinnamon (Cinnamomum cassia) because it contains Coumarin.

Ceylon Cinnamon(Cinnamomum verum) which is referred to as the REAL cinnamon and better quality and less of the Coumarin compound. (1), (2), (3)

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## opal

wait.. the article, near the end says Tylenol is safer - the bull$#@! meter tilts.. hard

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## donnay

> wait.. the article, near the end says Tylenol is safer - the bull$#@! meter tilts.. hard


Yeah neither are good for us.  It's a main stream media article, I am willing to give them a little credit for shining a light on ibuprofen.

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## angelatc

> Maybe people should listen to Hippocrates more: Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food.


Maybe people should acknowledge that science has advanced in the past 2500 years.

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## Superfluous Man

> Ha ha ha, so funny ...... You Zippy and the rest of the trolls  are what makes this forum unique.


1. Donnay posts an op-ed advocating banning over-the-counter sale of Ibuprofen.
2. Zippy takes the position that is consistent with this site's mission and disagrees with that op-ed.
3. Timo's man calls Zippy a troll.

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## timosman

> Everything has potential side effects.  It depends on genetics, existing conditions, and dose.


Except unlimited immigration. This can only be looked at in terms of potential benefits.

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## angelatc

> wait.. the article, near the end says Tylenol is safer - the bull$#@! meter tilts.. hard


Tylenol also isn't an anti-inflammatory, so if you have arthritis it's pretty useless.

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## euphemia

> If you get down that inflammation (through diet, exercise and supplementation) you'd be surprised.  I know a person with severe RA and how he eliminated the RA symptoms with a strict diet and exercise--basically a life-style change.  This person drank nearly 2 gallons of sweet tea a day, and sweet tea is bad for the bones.


I am under the care of a clinical nutritionist and I'm doing everything I'm supposed to do.  At my age and stage of joint deterioriation, I will be faciing surgery on both knees and probably a thumb at some point.

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## donnay

> Maybe people should acknowledge that science has advanced in the past 2500 years.


Maybe people should acknowledge that many of the old remedies (Tradition Chinese Medicine & Ayurveda medicine) still work today.

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## donnay

> I am under the care of a clinical nutritionist and I'm doing everything I'm supposed to do.  At my age and stage of joint deterioriation, I will be faciing surgery on both knees and probably a thumb at some point.


Sorry to hear that.

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## euphemia

> Sorry to hear that.


Thanks.

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## timosman

> 1. Donnay posts an op-ed advocating banning over-the-counter sale of Ibuprofen.
> 2. Zippy takes the position that is consistent with this site's mission and disagrees with that op-ed.
> 3. Timo's man calls Zippy a troll.


Here is your problem: Zippy never takes a position.

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## Intoxiklown

> I am providing information so people can make up their minds--I know what works for me.


I understand Donnay...but your presentation comes across not as informative but instead biased. 

For example, if someone makes a comment about any pharmaceutical instead of replying something like, "Yes...I understand how that medication can really be beneficial for people with certain conditions but make sure you're aware of possible side effects and/or bad reactions with other meds or foods", you'll instead post stories or related studies that highlight those possible side effects as proof they are poison or not helpful at all.

And that's where my concern comes in, as I worry how many people from both sides of the spectrum will make some foolish decisions for themselves resulting in either longer suffering than need be or escalation of their condition. Because people that might benefit from a targeted diet plan to assist their medication regime or people refusing medications to go along with their diet plan are both going to lose. This is why pointed out that our family provider is a Pain Management certified MD who is also a big proponent (dietary advice is part of his treatment plans with patients suffering chronic pain), to illustrate that both positions regarding treatment is something found in many clinics who deal with chronic pain sufferers. 

People are different from the next in how our bodies react to foods and medications to the point where we have to accept that there is no one size fits all. Medical science has increased the life span of people to almost double (especially with the advent of antibiotics) as well as making many things once considered a death sentence very treatable. But the flip side to that, and as my doctor likes to point out, overuse and abuse of these medications are taking these advances away since we are using them to treat many conditions that can just as easily, if not better addressed, using simple natural remedies that has been used for centuries.

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## donnay

> I understand Donnay...but your presentation comes across not as informative but instead biased. 
> 
> For example, if someone makes a comment about any pharmaceutical instead of replying something like, "Yes...I understand how that medication can really be beneficial for people with certain conditions but make sure you're aware of possible side effects and/or bad reactions with other meds or foods", you'll instead post stories or related studies that highlight those possible side effects as proof they are poison or not helpful at all.
> 
> And that's where my concern comes in, as I worry how many people from both sides of the spectrum will make some foolish decisions for themselves resulting in either longer suffering than need be or escalation of their condition. Because people that might benefit from a targeted diet plan to assist their medication regime or people refusing medications to go along with their diet plan are both going to lose. This is why pointed out that our family provider is a Pain Management certified MD who is also a big proponent (dietary advice is part of his treatment plans with patients suffering chronic pain), to illustrate that both positions regarding treatment is something found in many clinics who deal with chronic pain sufferers. 
> 
> People are different from the next in how our bodies react to foods and medications to the point where we have to accept that there is no one size fits all. Medical science has increased the life span of people to almost double (especially with the advent of antibiotics) as well as making many things once considered a death sentence very treatable. But the flip side to that, and as my doctor likes to point out, overuse and abuse of these medications are taking these advances away since we are using them to treat many conditions that can just as easily, if not better addressed, using simple natural remedies that has been used for centuries.


IMHO having a medical doctor as a spouse also makes your POV a little biased as well--just sayin'.

I do not promote one-size-fits-all in anything--  Religion, Political, Financial or Education.

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## Zippyjuan

> IMHO having a medical doctor as a spouse also makes your POV a little biased as well--just sayin'.
> 
> I do not promote one-size-fits-all in anything--  Religion, Political, Financial or Education.


Ron Paul was a doctor.  You don't trust what doctors say?

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## donnay

> Ron Paul was a doctor.  You don't trust what doctors say?


I never asked Dr. Paul for his opinion on medical issues.

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## Intoxiklown

> IMHO having a medical doctor as a spouse also makes your POV a little biased as well--just sayin'.
> 
> I do not promote one-size-fits-all in anything--  Religion, Political, Financial or Education.


I'll concede that's one way to view it. But another way is that means I have real world knowledge about some things that fly in the face of what someone on the internet is swearing to be true. 

But to your point,  bear in mind (and I say this half playfully, so it's not meant smart ass) that means I can assure you that we've yet to receive a check from Big Pharma, be invited to the super secret meeting discussing the depopulation plans as well as figure out how we can make the most money (I still say that is the greatest business model ever...we'll kill all our patients so we can make money). She does get gifts from the pharmaceutical reps though.....he brings Little Ceasar's Pizza for their lunch.

But on the serious side, that is why I get a bit frustrated with some of the talk how all doctors only want to make money and don't care for their patients. Because while that talking point is being pushed, my wife gets home at 5am because some kid shot himself but didn't die immediately from it. He had no family, no wife, nothing. So she sat with him so he wouldn't be alone as he waited to die. She literally just had a mother come in with her daughter a couple of days ago, who was sure her child had the flu. She wanted her hospitalized right then (she hadn't even been swabbed to test) but made it clear she didn't get flu shots and she didn't want her given Tamiflu. Right off the bat she made it clear there would be no treatments that are the norm, demanded her child be hospitalized, and made it clear it was the hospital's job to insure her child didn't suffer possible death like others have around the nation. That woman spit in my wife's face when she tested negative for the flu and informed the mother she couldn't admit her. Let me say that again.....she spit in my wife's face. 

I'm not saying that for sympathy  mind you.....I'm saying that to prove a point. Because my wife went back to work the following day to do it all over again. That should say a lot, because if someone spit in my face? Nine or Ninety-nine, man or woman.....I'm stomping their brains out through their ears. 

As I said....it's not that you're wrong. But you have unrealistic expectations and opinions about the medical field.

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## Swordsmyth

> I'll concede that's one way to view it. But another way is that means I have real world knowledge about some things that fly in the face of what someone on the internet is swearing to be true. 
> 
> But to your point,  bear in mind (and I say this half playfully, so it's not meant smart ass) that means I can assure you that we've yet to receive a check from Big Pharma, be invited to the super secret meeting discussing the depopulation plans as well as figure out how we can make the most money (I still say that is the greatest business model ever...we'll kill all our patients so we can make money). She does get gifts from the pharmaceutical reps though.....he brings Little Ceasar's Pizza for their lunch.
> 
> But on the serious side, that is why I get a bit frustrated with some of the talk how all doctors only want to make money and don't care for their patients. Because while that talking point is being pushed, my wife gets home at 5am because some kid shot himself but didn't die immediately from it. He had no family, no wife, nothing. So she sat with him so he wouldn't be alone as he waited to die. She literally just had a mother come in with her daughter a couple of days ago, who was sure her child had the flu. She wanted her hospitalized right then (she hadn't even been swabbed to test) but made it clear she didn't get flu shots and she didn't want her given Tamiflu. Right off the bat she made it clear there would be no treatments that are the norm, demanded her child be hospitalized, and made it clear it was the hospital's job to insure her child didn't suffer possible death like others have around the nation. That woman spit in my wife's face when she tested negative for the flu and informed the mother she couldn't admit her. Let me say that again.....she spit in my wife's face. 
> 
> I'm not saying that for sympathy  mind you.....I'm saying that to prove a point. Because my wife went back to work the following day to do it all over again. That should say a lot, because if someone spit in my face? Nine or Ninety-nine, man or woman.....I'm stomping their brains out through their ears. 
> 
> As I said....it's not that you're wrong. But you have unrealistic expectations and opinions about the medical field.


Every group has a spectrum of members, some groups are weighted towards the bad end while others are weighted towards the good end but their are always group members at the other end of the spectrum from the majority.

Sometimes one group is closer to correct than another but usually both will have some truth and value to their knowledge and beliefs.

I lean towards alternative medicine but I would never deny that conventional medicine has some value and can do things alternative medicine can't.

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## Intoxiklown

> Every group has a spectrum of members, some groups are weighted towards the bad end while others are weighted towards the good end but their are always group members at the other end of the spectrum from the majority.
> 
> Sometimes one group is closer to correct than another but usually both will have some truth and value to their knowledge and beliefs.
> 
> I lean towards alternative medicine but I would never deny that conventional medicine has some value and can do things alternative medicine can't.


Agree 100%

And I'm honestly not that different. I view natural therapy (diet, yoga, ect) as day to day maintenance to help keep everything running, and medical intervention as the mechanic. Ironically....I HATE going to the doctor (I especially hate needles. We're talking I'm the guy who'd rather let you punch me in the nose than stick me with a needle), but I go every three months whether anything is wrong or not. I have to for prescription refills anyway, but also we have a real good provider who actually talks to us, asks questions to keep track of things, ect. I hope the day it's ever needed is long coming, but when it does....any surgeons will have an extremely well detailed medical history containing both any medications and treatments, as well as medications and treatments I've refused and an explanation of why (I refused any statin based drugs, as well as declined a referral to chronic pain management. LOL.....I have an addictive personality to where if I like something, I'm going to do a lot of it). Most importantly, it has my "condition" detailed in it. 

I have a genetic "defect" that makes me highly resistant to opioids. And when I say highly resistant, I am not exaggerating. 50mg of methadone is a lethal dose for someone not "in the know" with opioids, and back in 2007 while drunk was eating some methadone I had been prescribed (I was getting high....not going to lie) and due to my friend Jim Beam distracting me....well, I took over 500mg (plus almost an entire 5th). And I wasn't found for a couple of hours. I woke up in an ICU (apparently I did "die" three times) with a nurse banging on the window to wake me up, as when I slept I quit breathing. But the next day I started realizing that I had hospital staff from all facets just kind of popping up by my room. I found out later it was that no one from the previous night believed I was alive. In fact, I was one of two methadone ODs that night....the other had taken like 70mg and wasn't drinking. He died.

It's weird because certain narcs do work for me, albeit in higher doses. Morphine does nothing for me...and I mean nothing. Fentanyl doesn't. either. But Dilaudid is just wonderful....lol. Granted they give me 2mg per dose without dilution, and then at least every 45 minutes. I take hydrocodones because I refused oxycodone. Don't ask why, but for some reason hydrocodone gives me relief, and oxycodone just makes me itch and hurt. Point being, my biggest fear is me be in a car crash or some $#@! and be in pieces and hurting like no tomorrow and as I'm laying there unable to speak I got some nurse giving me morphine thinking they just helped me.

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## donnay

> I'll concede that's one way to view it. But another way is that means I have real world knowledge about some things that fly in the face of what someone on the internet is swearing to be true. 
> 
> But to your point,  bear in mind (and I say this half playfully, so it's not meant smart ass) that means I can assure you that we've yet to receive a check from Big Pharma, be invited to the super secret meeting discussing the depopulation plans as well as figure out how we can make the most money (I still say that is the greatest business model ever...we'll kill all our patients so we can make money). She does get gifts from the pharmaceutical reps though.....he brings Little Ceasar's Pizza for their lunch.
> 
> But on the serious side, that is why I get a bit frustrated with some of the talk how all doctors only want to make money and don't care for their patients. Because while that talking point is being pushed, my wife gets home at 5am because some kid shot himself but didn't die immediately from it. He had no family, no wife, nothing. So she sat with him so he wouldn't be alone as he waited to die. She literally just had a mother come in with her daughter a couple of days ago, who was sure her child had the flu. She wanted her hospitalized right then (she hadn't even been swabbed to test) but made it clear she didn't get flu shots and she didn't want her given Tamiflu. Right off the bat she made it clear there would be no treatments that are the norm, demanded her child be hospitalized, and made it clear it was the hospital's job to insure her child didn't suffer possible death like others have around the nation. That woman spit in my wife's face when she tested negative for the flu and informed the mother she couldn't admit her. Let me say that again.....she spit in my wife's face. 
> 
> I'm not saying that for sympathy  mind you.....I'm saying that to prove a point. Because my wife went back to work the following day to do it all over again. That should say a lot, because if someone spit in my face? Nine or Ninety-nine, man or woman.....I'm stomping their brains out through their ears. 
> 
> As I said....it's not that you're wrong. But you have unrealistic expectations and opinions about the medical field.


I tip my hat to your wife, I have no doubt it is a thankless job at times.  Just because I am against the dirty vaccines, it does not mean I am against ALL conventional medicine.

There are indeed a lot of good doctors and nurses out there.  If I have an appendicitis, I'm certainly not going to have my mechanic neighbor take it out.  If I have a compound fracture, I am certainly not going to try and fix it myself.

For chronic illnesses, I am all for an alternative / integrative medical approach.

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## donnay

> *Skip the Ibuprofen: Use These Natural Pain-Relief Tactics Instead*
> Don't reach for chemical painkillers in the medicine aisle! Use these natural pain-relief techniques.
> 
> by integrative medicine expert Isaac Eliaz, MD, founder of the Amitabha Clinic & Healing Center in Sebastopol, California
> 
> 
> Pain can dominate our life experience, so natural pain relief is on a lot of people's minds. Whether the discomfort occurs in the head, stomach, back, joints, or muscles, pain can make simple activities difficult, ruin our ability to concentrate, and interfere with body mechanics. For some, every movement must be calculated to avoid discomfort.
> 
> We generally address mild pain with over-the-counter remedies, such as ibuprofen and acetaminophen—the most commonly used drugs in the U.S. In fact, they are frequently overused for chronic pain because they're assumed to safe (they're so readily available even children can buy them). While these drugs can reduce inflammation, they don't always get to the root of the problem and may sometimes only mask the symptoms. Furthermore, new research suggests that these drugs have more serious long-term side effects than previously believed, contributing to intestinal damage, liver failure, and more. Prescription pain medications are much more risky while also being dangerously habit-forming.
> ...


https://www.rodalewellness.com/healt...al-pain-relief

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## navy-vet

> https://www.rodalewellness.com/healt...al-pain-relief


Interesting. Thank you for sharing.

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## Intoxiklown

> I tip my hat to your wife, I have no doubt it is a thankless job at times.  Just because I am against the dirty vaccines, it does not mean I am against ALL conventional medicine.
> 
> There are indeed a lot of good doctors and nurses out there.  If I have an appendicitis, I'm certainly not going to have my mechanic neighbor take it out.  If I have a compound fracture, I am certainly not going to try and fix it myself.
> 
> For chronic illnesses, I am all for an alternative / integrative medical approach.


I have no doubts that you view and understand health treatment is best when integrated approach of both natural and science depending on the ailment, Donnay.  That's why I said my "concern" was more of how some of your posts can come across as one sided. Though granted intent has a bad habit of poorly translating to text. But it's why I'll find myself trying to offer an objective counter point a lot because I'll think of people like that idiot David Stephan and his wife who literally watched their 19 month old son die from bacterial meningitis because of their position that nature can cure anything (refusing to accept that nature also has a dark side and is quite talented in killing us also). 

They didn't believe in vaccinations (they're not ones who simply want to space out vaccines more, they refuse all of them) so their child didn't have the vaccine that is given for bacterial meningitis. They don't believe doctors are here to help people, so when  their friend who was a nurse and helped in their home birth of their children saw the child and said they should see a doctor as he was exhibiting signs of meningitis they instead took him to a naturopathic who didn't do anything more than look at him (heck of an exam) and gave him a tonic made from what reads like a spice list for making gumbo. Only when their child quit breathing did they call 911 and reach out to a doctor. By then it was too late sadly. 

Ironically, the parents still find a way to blame their son's death on the medical system citing poorly equipped ambulances.

----------


## donnay

> I have no doubts that you view and understand health treatment is best when integrated approach of both natural and science depending on the ailment, Donnay.  That's why I said my "concern" was more of how some of your posts can come across as one sided. Though granted intent has a bad habit of poorly translating to text. But it's why I'll find myself trying to offer an objective counter point a lot because I'll think of people like that idiot David Stephan and his wife who literally watched their 19 month old son die from bacterial meningitis because of their position that nature can cure anything (refusing to accept that nature also has a dark side and is quite talented in killing us also). 
> 
> They didn't believe in vaccinations (they're not ones who simply want to space out vaccines more, they refuse all of them) so their child didn't have the vaccine that is given for bacterial meningitis. They don't believe doctors are here to help people, so when  their friend who was a nurse and helped in their home birth of their children saw the child and said they should see a doctor as he was exhibiting signs of meningitis they instead took him to a naturopathic who didn't do anything more than look at him (heck of an exam) and gave him a tonic made from what reads like a spice list for making gumbo. Only when their child quit breathing did they call 911 and reach out to a doctor. By then it was too late sadly. 
> 
> Ironically, the parents still find a way to blame their son's death on the medical system citing poorly equipped ambulances.


Uh huh, some people are stupid and you cannot legislate stupidity.  However, I have already stated my position.  My major problem is with Big pHARMa and government agencies who protect them.

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## Intoxiklown

> Uh huh, some people are stupid and you cannot legislate stupidity.  However, I have already stated my position.  My major problem is with Big pHARMa and government agencies who protect them.


I understand, and more so than people might think..agree with you. That's why I've posted a few studies being done in other countries that are showing some extremely positive results in fighting things like cancer. Both for the optimistic outlook it can give fellow forum members who are either dealing with things like cancer or at a high risk themselves with age. Because nations like Sweden and Norway are making discoveries that will change a lot of the treatments we have for many diseases that has been kept active by suppression of newer and better ways by large pharmaceutical lobby groups.  

As an aside, and relating to my earlier comment about intent not translating well to text....

It dawned on me my previous post might come across as being vindictive or targeted. I had no such intent and was merely commenting, so please know that if any of it seemed malicious it was not meant to be.

----------


## donnay

> I understand, and more so than people might think..agree with you. That's why I've posted a few studies being done in other countries that are showing some extremely positive results in fighting things like cancer. Both for the optimistic outlook it can give fellow forum members who are either dealing with things like cancer or at a high risk themselves with age. Because nations like Sweden and Norway are making discoveries that will change a lot of the treatments we have for many diseases that has been kept active by suppression of newer and better ways by large pharmaceutical lobby groups.  
> 
> As an aside, and relating to my earlier comment about intent not translating well to text....
> 
> It dawned on me my previous post might come across as being vindictive or targeted. I had no such intent and was merely commenting, so please know that if any of it seemed malicious it was not meant to be.


It's all good.  No harm, no foul.

----------


## Swordsmyth

Stomach upset is among the most commonly reported side effects of ibuprofen. "The FDA advises ibuprofen be taken with food or milk in patients who have experienced stomach upset with this medication in the past," said Joshua Russell, MD at Legacy-GoHealth Urgent Care.
 Ibuprofen, like aspirin and naproxen (among other medications), is a  type of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID). "These medications  can seriously damage the lining of the stomach," Dr. Russell said.

"Taking ibuprofen on an empty stomach may cause irritation of the  stomach lining and bleeding ulcers," said South Florida-based  cardiologist Dr. Adam Splaver of Nanohealth Associates. "This holds true  for all other NSAIDs as well as aspirin, which may reduce the stomach  lining's ability to protect itself from the harsh acid produced to aid  in the digestive process," he said.

More at: https://www.popsugar.com/fitness/Bad...omach-44359112

----------


## Intoxiklown

> Stomach upset is among the most commonly reported side effects of ibuprofen. "The FDA advises ibuprofen be taken with food or milk in patients who have experienced stomach upset with this medication in the past," said Joshua Russell, MD at Legacy-GoHealth Urgent Care.
>  Ibuprofen, like aspirin and naproxen (among other medications), is a  type of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID). "These medications  can seriously damage the lining of the stomach," Dr. Russell said.
> 
> "Taking ibuprofen on an empty stomach may cause irritation of the  stomach lining and bleeding ulcers," said South Florida-based  cardiologist Dr. Adam Splaver of Nanohealth Associates. "This holds true  for all other NSAIDs as well as aspirin, which may reduce the stomach  lining's ability to protect itself from the harsh acid produced to aid  in the digestive process," he said.
> 
> More at: https://www.popsugar.com/fitness/Bad...omach-44359112


That is actually the difference in OTC NSAIDs and prescription NSAIDs like Meloxicam as I take. Meloxicam is more of an "over time" release allowing once per 24 hours as well as having a more stomach friendly coating.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> That is actually the difference in OTC NSAIDs and prescription NSAIDs like Meloxicam as I take. Meloxicam is more of an "over time" release allowing once per 24 hours as well as having a more stomach friendly coating.


From the article:




> In other words, it may not matter if you take it with or without food,  as it is going to get absorbed into the blood anyway. "And for that  matter, even intravenous NSAID medications cause similar side effects.

----------


## Intoxiklown

> From the article:


  I was speaking purely to stomach issues with that. Many people who do develop stomach issues either from NSAIDs or simply from something prior will take hings like Toradol IV.

----------


## donnay

> *Ibuprofen Kills Thousands Each Year, So What Is The Alternative?*
> 
> By: Sayer Ji
> 
> A recent Reuters' article opened with the following stunning sentence:
> 
> *"Long-term high-dose use of painkillers such as ibuprofen or diclofenac is 'equally hazardous' in terms of heart attack risk as use of the drug Vioxx, which was withdrawn due to its potential dangers, researchers said."  
> *
> The 2004 Vioxx recall, as you may remember, was spurred by the nearly 30,000 excess cases of heart attacks and sudden cardiac deaths caused by the drug between 1999-2003. Despite the fact that scientific research had accumulated as early as 2000 linking Vioxx to increased heart attacks and strokes, the drug's manufacturer Merck, and the FDA, remained silent as the death toll steadily increased.
> ...


http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/ibu...t-alternatives

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## GoGetter

I'd take not being able to buy Ibuprofen over the counter in my country as an indicator of "get out, now".

----------

