# Lifestyles & Discussion > Personal Health & Well-Being >  FL doctor proves in court vaccines cause autism

## Hamer

FL doctor proves in court vaccines cause autism
http://www.wptv.com/mediacenter/loca...com&navCatId=3


www.retakecongress.com 

www.revolutionbroadcasting.com

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## dannno

Alright where are all the deniers at.

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## Epic

"In 2008 the federal government agreed to award damages to the family of Hannah Poling, a girl who developed autistic-like symptoms after receiving a series of vaccines in a single day."   - wikipedia

Gov. has conceded that vaccines can cause autism before

Fed. Gov. created a special court so vaccine manufacturers would be shielded 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_court

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## Epic

> Alright where are all the deniers at.


Digg. Or at least thats the site that I see it a lot at.

Young people are incredibly statist, anti-corporate, but simultaneously incredibly pro-big pharma/government complex

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## sevin

> Young people are incredibly statist, anti-corporate, but simultaneously incredibly pro-big pharma/government complex


They're just confused.

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## dannno

> Digg. Or at least thats the site that I see it a lot at.
> 
> Young people are incredibly statist, anti-corporate, but simultaneously incredibly pro-big pharma/government complex


Nah, they're around here somewhere..

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## dannno

> They're just confused.


Yup, they feel they need to force the right thing on society because they are led to believe that the free market creates the mega corporations and monopolies that are destroying us.

+1 for recognizing that mega corporations are destroying us


-2 for not recognizing the source..

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## angelatc

Winning a court case does not scientifically prove that vaccines cause autism, or even that they can cause autism. It only proves the jury felt sorry for the kid.

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## dannno

> Winning a court case does not scientifically prove that vaccines cause autism, or even that they can cause autism. It only proves the jury felt sorry for the kid.


It doesn't matter, there is already plenty of scientific evidence that it causes autism.. The only thing that matters is that it gets attention and becomes an issue so it can be stopped. It would also help people to become less statist.

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## DeadheadForPaul

Chances of getting autism vs. chances of dying from disease that vaccine prevents

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## TrueFreedom

> It doesn't matter, there is already plenty of scientific evidence that it causes autism.. The only thing that matters is that it gets attention and becomes an issue so it can be stopped. It would also help people to become less statist.


No you are wrong. There is not a lot of scientific evidence proving this. Actually it's quite the opposite.

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## maqsur

> It doesn't matter, there is already plenty of scientific evidence that it causes autism.. The only thing that matters is that it gets attention and becomes an issue so it can be stopped. It would also help people to become less statist.


There has not been a proven CAUSAL link.  Millions and millions of vaccines given, and how many cases of autism?  There has been controversy about autism and MMR vaccine because of the timing of the vaccine.  MMR is given at 12-15 months of age, and this is around the age when babies start to be more interactive, social, vocalizing, etc.  Autism will show early manifestations around this time.   It's a DEVELOPMENTAL disorder, not something that can be 'caught' or 'transmitted.'

If there was "plenty of scientific evidence" of a cause and effect, there would be no MMR (or any other suspected substance) vaccine on the market, lest the manufacturer wants to go down in flames from public backlash.

I think that people try to find something to scapegoat, because autism is a devastating diagnosis for families, I'm sure.  It just so happens that infants receive several vaccinations through the first 1.5 years of life, so it's convenient.

Probably the good thing to come from the controversy is that there is efforts to remove mercury compounds from vaccines, however, there still remain trace amounts in certain vaccinations.

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## dannno

> No you are wrong. There is not a lot of scientific evidence proving this. Actually it's quite the opposite.


No, you have been tricked by paid experts, but you are in fact completely wrong. I really hope you come back cause I've posted plenty of irrefutable evidence in the past for this.







> The Congressional report also said that the CDC, due to its "biases against theories regarding vaccine-induced autism," had chosen to fund researchers "who also worked for vaccine manufacturers to conduct population-based immunologic studies. . ." and stated:
> 
> "The CDC in general and the National Immunization Program are particularly conflicted in their duty to monitor the safety of vaccines, while also charged with the responsibility of purchasing vaccines for resale as well as promoting increased immunization rates."



What amazes me here is that a congressional committee can recognize what is happening better than  A $#@!ING RON PAUL SUPPORTER. You should be ashamed of yourself for not questioning this more. I mean COME ON. Seriously. I know you are an intelligent person.


More..




> The autism epidemic cannot be denied. On February 15, 2005, the GAO, released a Report titled, "Special Education Children With Autism," that revealed the number of children ages 6 through 21 diagnosed with autism receiving special education services has increased more than *500% over the past 10 years.*
> 
> In a transcript, obtained under the FOIA, of a secret meeting attended by officials from the FDA and CDC in 2000, Pediatrician Bill Weil, acknowledged the epidemic and stated, "There are just a host of neurodevelopmental data that would suggest that we've got a serious problem.... The number of kids getting help in special education is growing nationally and state by state at a rate we have not seen before." 
> 
> Thimerosal is a mercury-based preservative that was developed in the 1930s by Eli Lilly, and has been used regularly in vaccines ever since basically to boost vaccine maker profits by allowing drug companies to package vaccines in large containers instead of a single dose. 
> 
> However, years ago children only received a small number of vaccines that were injected with a period of time in between and one dose at a time. *Since 1988, the number of vaccines given to children before the age of two has tripled.*
> 
> Lisa Blakemore-Brown, a psychologist in the UK, has been investigating the vaccine-autism link for years and says the reason the epidemic in autism did not occur sooner is because* before the 1990s children "were given single vaccines with single amounts of mercury." 
> ...


http://www.opednews.com/articles/gen..._investiga.htm





> The report may have satisfied the CDC, but it convinced no one. Rep. David Weldon, a Republican physician from Florida who serves on the House Government Reform Committee, attacked the Institute of Medicine, saying it relied on a handful of studies that were "fatally flawed" by "poor design" and failed to represent "all the available scientific and medical research." CDC officials are not interested in an honest search for the truth, Weldon told me, because "an association between vaccines and autism would force them to admit that their policies irreparably damaged thousands of children. Who would want to make that conclusion about themselves?"



http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...adly_immunity/



YouTube - CDC Chief Admits that Vaccines Trigger Autism

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## dannno

> There has not been a proven CAUSAL link.  Millions and millions of vaccines given, and how many cases of autism?  There has been controversy about autism and MMR vaccine because of the timing of the vaccine.  MMR is given at 12-15 months of age, and this is around the age when babies start to be more interactive, social, vocalizing, etc.  Autism will show early manifestations around this time.   It's a DEVELOPMENTAL disorder, not something that can be 'caught' or 'transmitted.'
> 
> If there was "plenty of scientific evidence" of a cause and effect, there would be no MMR (or any other suspected substance) vaccine on the market, lest the manufacturer wants to go down in flames from public backlash.
> 
> I think that people try to find something to scapegoat, because autism is a devastating diagnosis for families, I'm sure.  It just so happens that infants receive several vaccinations through the first 1.5 years of life, so it's convenient.
> 
> Probably the good thing to come from the controversy is that there is efforts to remove mercury compounds from vaccines, however, there still remain trace amounts in certain vaccinations.



I hope you read my above post and reconsidered where your sources of information are coming from.

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## dannno

> On Feb 9, 2004, the National Autism Association issued a press release that reported on one of the larger studies under review based on the Center for Disease Control's Vaccine Safety Datalink. The Association reports that independent investigation of CDC data revealed children were 27 times more likely to develop autism after exposure to three thimerosal-containing vaccines (TCVs), than those who receive thimerosal-free versions.
> 
> Let that sink in. 27 times more likely to develop autism. Then consider that our government regulatory agencies had this information for years and deliberately kept it hidden from the public. This failure to warn the public was not due to negligence or laziness, it was a deliberate cover-up and it continues today.






> David Ayoub, MD, said: "I can state that the certainty of the science supporting mercury as a major cause of autism is probably more overpowering than the science behind any other disease process that I studied dating back to medical school."



http://dissidentvoice.org/June05/Pringle0602.htm

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## Epic

> No you are wrong. There is not a lot of scientific evidence proving this. Actually it's quite the opposite.


Basically the government doesn't want to admit it so they play around with the data and send money to people who will cover for them. The people in the gov. making those decisions have usually been at the pharma companies both before and after their stint in the gov.

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## He Who Pawns

Move to HOT TOPICS.

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## donnay

> Chances of getting autism vs. chances of dying from disease that vaccine prevents



You know for a fact vaccines prevent disease?


*CDC Vaccine Advisor Pockets $29 Million Promoting Vaccines*

http://www.naturalnews.com/026359_CD...ccination.html

*Here's a parents tragic story:*

http://iansvoice.org/default.aspx

*Children Who Get Flu Vaccine Have Three Times Risk Of Hospitalization For Flu, Study Suggests*

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0519172045.htm

*Industry ties to vaccine advocates raises skepticism*

http://www.fiercevaccines.com/story/...ism/2008-07-31

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## Working Poor

What so many people don't seem to get is that mercury is one of the most toxic elements to life on the planet. The reasons that are given for it to be in vaccine seems very lame to me.

I have a nephew with autism he was fine before he had MMR vaccine. Everyday for him is a struggle to understand and to be understood.

I believe the high occurrence of learning disability also has something to do with mercury in vaccine and in amalgam fillings that are used to treat cavities in teeth. 

I can remember having vaccine when I was a child I always felt bad afterwards and the site where I received the shot was always tender for sometimes months. The last vaccine I had when entering jr high was given in my hip in August of that year I could barely walk for almost 2 weeks and the site hurt for at least year. The doctor had a kind of ho hum attitude about my reaction. I knew that I would never have another vaccine after that.

I had a nervous breakdown once after a root canal where my tooth was filled with amalgam. I was told while in the hospital that it is very common for people to have breakdowns after a root canal or after having a filling with amalgam. I don't understand how it is considered okay with the ADA and FDA to use mercury to fill teeth. Dentist are far more likely than any other health care provider to commit suicide for some reason.

I think people ought to have the option to have vaccine with out mercury. You do have the option to not have mercury fillings but you have to shop for a dentist that doesn't use mercury because most dentist don't give you a choice unless you ask for it. I also believe that the dosing is incorrect and that immunity could be stimulated with much much lower dosages. I just hate all this Dr. Frankenstein, and Nazi technology being used in the medical profession these days.

I believe that over time mercury in vaccine has worn down the DNA of the population with each generation they become more vulnerable. My mother generation people started blindly having their children vaccinated because the government said it was necessary I am sure there were many unreported deaths in children, my generation they may have tweeked them to just cause learning disability and this generation is dealing with autism. I think crib deaths may also be associated with vaccine but shhhhhhh don't tell nobody.

With a ratio of 1 in 120 children having some form of autism or at least learning disability  it does seem like the population would be more concerned. They are not. 


If you have children and you do not want them to catch autism you need to at least be aware that a deadly toxic poison is being injected into your child when you have them vaccinated. Also if your children are having fillings in their teeth you need to be aware 1st that diet has a very strong bearing on over all health and sugar is so bad for dental health. If your children have lots of cavities stop feeding them a diet high in sugar. Be aware that amalgam is mercury and this is what will be put in your children's teeth unless you ask that mercury not be used better yet find a dentist who never uses it. Even the smallest amount of mercury is still toxic and don't let anybody BS you about that.

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## Kludge

> Young people are incredibly statist, anti-corporate, but simultaneously incredibly pro-big pharma/government complex





> They're just confused.


Wait, I'm confused... The "young people" are burdening me with ~$40,000 in to-be-paid-by-me-exclusively gov't debt excluding Welfare liabilities, a "war on terror", "war on drugs", & "war on poverty", a trade deficit that is second-to-none in inspiring hopelessness, and unprecedented gov't growth in relation to previous decades?  

Edit: No, but I am fond of the U.S.. I come off as bitter and unappreciative, but I have an "it's good, but it could be better" feeling about it.

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## maqsur

I think autism is just being diagnosed more often, doesn't mean there is a true increase in incidence.

Kind of like flu.  Most doctors don't test for it, but with this hysteria lately, there has been a lot more testing, and consequently, more diagnoses.

Again, autism is a developmental disorder, not an acquired disorder.  You don't 'catch' it.  I feel sorry for any family that has to deal with diagnoses such as autism, but that doesn't mean you discount decades of vaccinations, and decreased disease.

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## donnay

If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State. ~Joseph Goebbels

People ought to do a better job of researching vaccines...

http://www.awakentothetruth.com/vaccinations.htm

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## dannno

> I think autism is just being diagnosed more often, doesn't mean there is a true increase in incidence.
> 
> Kind of like flu.  Most doctors don't test for it, but with this hysteria lately, there has been a lot more testing, and consequently, more diagnoses.
> 
> Again, autism is a developmental disorder, not an acquired disorder.  You don't 'catch' it.  I feel sorry for any family that has to deal with diagnoses such as autism, but that doesn't mean you discount decades of vaccinations, and decreased disease.


So you didn't read my post I see.

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## specsaregood

> but that doesn't mean you discount decades of vaccinations, and decreased disease.


Do vaccines really have anything to do with eradicating some diseases?  These graphs would suggest not:



> The above graphs, based on the official death numbers as recorded in the Official Year Books of the Commonwealth of Australia, are taken from Greg Beattie's excellent book "Vaccination A Parent's Dilemma" and represent the decline in death rates from infectious disease in Australia. They clearly show that vaccines had nothing to do with the decline in death rates. (Note: Graphical evidence on the decline in death rates from infectious disease for USA, England, New Zealand and many other countries shows the exact same scenario as above).
> 
> So what were the true reasons for this decline? From his book 'Health and Healing' Dr Andrew Weil best answers it with this statement;
> 
> "Scientific medicine has taken credit it does not deserve for some advances in health. Most people believe that victory over the infectious diseases of the last century came with the invention of immunisations.* In fact, cholera, typhoid, tetanus, diphtheria and whooping cough, etc, were in decline before vaccines for them became available - the result of better methods of sanitation, sewage disposal, and distribution of food and water."*

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## brandon

> FL doctor proves in court vaccines cause autism
> http://www.wptv.com/mediacenter/loca...com&navCatId=3
> 
> 
> www.retakecongress.com 
> 
> www.revolutionbroadcasting.com


"Proves in court"?

First of all, this isn't the type of thing you can prove. All you can do is gather data that supports your hypothesis.  And second, I would think a doctor would gather his supporting data in a lab, not in court!??

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## Epic

in some states now, 1 in 40 boys are autistic.

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## dannno

> Do vaccines really have anything to do with eradicating some diseases?  These graphs would suggest not:


Ya, I've seen those graphs before and that is what first made me question the validity of vaccines in general.

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## Hamer

> "Proves in court"?
> 
> First of all, this isn't the type of thing you can prove. All you can do is gather data that supports your hypothesis.  And second, I would think a doctor would gather his supporting data in a lab, not in court!??


You are either the dumbest or just most negative person or both on this forum. 

Of course it can be proven with scientific facts and data. 

Of course the data was collected prior to going to court. The fact is that the court has now ruled that a vaccine actually caused autism based on the data collected prior to going to court.

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## pacelli

> "In 2008 the federal government agreed to award damages to the family of Hannah Poling, a girl who developed autistic-like symptoms after receiving a series of vaccines in a single day."   - *wikipedia*
> 
> Gov. has conceded that vaccines can cause autism before
> 
> Fed. Gov. created a special court so vaccine manufacturers would be shielded 
> http://en.*wikipedia*.org/wiki/Vaccine_court

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## pacelli

Dr. Andrew Moulden, the Canadian physician mentioned in the news report, will give you all the information you need to know about the connection between vaccinations and diseases.  He's so concerned about protecting the general welfare of the public, that it only costs $44.95 for the 3-DVD set. Released in March,2009.   It might be worth it considering:




> This 3 DVD series *proves*, in medical physiology and clinical sciences, with new and old diagnostic technologies, that ALL vaccinations cause immediate and delayed, acute and chronic, permanent and transient, disease and disorders that cut across all organ systems.


You can see the proof for only $44.95 ($39.95 for brainguardMD.com members).

http://brainguardmd.com/


Here's the link of the Zeller decision taken from Moulden's website (its free).

http://www.vacinfo.org/Zeller.pdf


My post is probably already too long for anyone to actually read this, but for what it is worth, *the kid received the vaccination in question after already having been to the doctor and receiving neurological imaging for previous conditions.  If you don't believe me, read the document*:

At Benjamin’s twelve-month visit on 17 November 2004, Benjamin’s nystagmus was
assessed in the “Interval History” section to be “much better... once in a while.” Pet. Ex. 5 at 236.
Later on, in the “General Appearance” section, in the field space corresponding to the
category/phrase “Eyes”, the doctor noted that there was no nystagmus at that point (“0 nystagmus
now”). Id. The Court reads these two entries in conjunction to mean that Benjamin’s nystagmus had
improved, such that on the pediatrician’s observation, it was absent, and Benjamin’s parents reported observing evidence of such condition only “once in a while.” Also in the General Appearance
section, the pediatrician made note under “Extremities” of a “poor [turned] toe [and] tight heel
cords,” and noted under the “Neuro / Dev[elopment]” category that Benjamin was at the “lower
ext[remities].” Id. Nevertheless, Benjamin was assessed as well and awaiting a visit with a Doctor
Jefferson about one month later. Id. It was on that date, 17 November 2004, that Benjamin received
the vaccination at issue. Tr. at 36.

*

The question I have is-- did the pre-existing issues, proven to exist in the legal decision, make the kid more susceptible to the autism-causing effect of the vaccine?  Doesn't this set a legal precedent for any unvaccinated, developmentally-delayed child?*

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## RonPaulVolunteer

> No you are wrong. There is not a lot of scientific evidence proving this. Actually it's quite the opposite.


Ah, you can not prove a negative, so you just disqualified yourself from this argument. Good bye.

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## Elwar

> did the... make the kid more susceptible to the autism-causing effect of the vaccine?[/U][/B]


I may be crazy, but I wouldn't want to give my kid something that has _any_ autism-causing effect.

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## brandon

> You are either the dumbest or just most negative person or both on this forum. 
> 
> Of course it can be proven with scientific facts and data.


Lol, thanks for the insults buddy.

It's impossible to prove anything in science.  Also, there is no such thing as "scientific fact."

You should really understand at least the most basic principles of science before you try to form an opinion and defend it in debate.

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## Hamer

> Lol, thanks for the insults buddy.
> 
> It's impossible to prove anything in science.  Also, there is no such thing as "scientific fact."
> 
> You should really understand at least the most basic principles of science before you try to form an opinion and defend it in debate.


The insult is because of your daily comments, they are always negative why?

So to diagnose a problem and treat it successfully has nothing to do with science? It is not fact when the problem is treated successfully? I guess it was all just theory and the grace of God right?

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## brandon

> The insult is because of your daily comments, they are always negative why?


Hmm, not sure. I never really noticed. 




> So to diagnose a problem and treat it successfully has nothing to do with science? It is not fact when the problem is treated successfully? I guess it was all just theory and the grace of God right?


It is all just theory. No proof in science. Just supporting evidence....

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## Hamer

> Hmm, not sure. I never really noticed. 
> 
> 
> 
> It is all just theory. No proof in science. Just supporting evidence....


You have just proven you are a complete idiot.

Here let me define science for you.

Science : a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws

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## brandon

> You have just proven you are a complete idiot.
> 
> Here let me define science for you.
> 
> Science : a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws


Sweet definition brah. Too bad science doesn't prove anything.

Science is the art of trying to explain things. People often come up with really great explanations in science. A lot of the time these explanations allow us to do lots of wonderful things. But there is always a chance the explanation is wrong or incomplete. There have been many scientific theories that have held up for ages and allowed us  to create great things...and then after a few centuries someone comes along and refutes the theory and provides something better.

Science is fluid, constantly changing. It's always growing and evolving, and most likely always will be.

I guess the title of the thread just kind of irked me. It's like saying that a judge is the final arbiter of absolute knowledge and reality.

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## pacelli

> I may be crazy, but I wouldn't want to give my kid something that has _any_ autism-causing effect.


I must be crazy too then!  Since it appears the OP has completely ignored the issue brought up in my post, I'll state it succinctly:

The FL doctor did not prove in court that "vaccines" cause autism.  The court issued a ruling that although the child had pre-existing developmental delays (proved by doctors), the single vaccine made the child's pre-existing symptomatic picture worse.

This is the problem with the media-- they do not read the source material.  If one were to watch the media report without reading the case law, you would think the kid was perfectly fine, was given a vaccine, and then developed a gait issue, nystagmus, and autism.  The truth is not as simple as the media would have us believe.

Do I believe that vaccines are a contributing factor in the development of autism?  You bet.

Do I believe that vaccines have caused every single case of autism?  Absolutely not.

Reference: Kanner, L. (1943). Autistic disturbances of affective contact.

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## Hamer

> I must be crazy too then!  Since it appears the OP has completely ignored the issue brought up in my post, I'll state it succinctly:
> 
> The FL doctor did not prove in court that "vaccines" cause autism.  The court issued a ruling that although the child had pre-existing developmental delays (proved by doctors), the single vaccine made the child's pre-existing symptomatic picture worse.
> 
> This is the problem with the media-- they do not read the source material.  If one were to watch the media report without reading the case law, you would think the kid was perfectly fine, was given a vaccine, and then developed a gait issue, nystagmus, and autism.  The truth is not as simple as the media would have us believe.
> 
> Do I believe that vaccines are a contributing factor in the development of autism?  You bet.
> 
> Do I believe that vaccines have caused every single case of autism?  Absolutely not.
> ...


I never said it causes every case. The fact is if it causes even one kid to become autistic IT SHOULD BE BANNED period. The fact is that thousands of kids are becoming autistic after taking the MMR shot and that is a fact but they still try to force parents and in some cases do force them to give their kids these toxic shots. 

The defense rests

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## dannno

> I never said it causes every case. The fact is if it causes even one kid to become autistic IT SHOULD BE BANNED period. The fact is that thousands of kids are becoming autistic after taking the MMR shot and that is a fact but they still try to force parents and in some cases do force them to give their kids these toxic shots. 
> 
> The defense rests


I'd say if it causes autism there should be warnings and people should determine whether that is a risk they are willing to take. If people knew WHY it caused autism, then they might very well avoid it.

In the free market, this would result in another manufacturer coming out with a safer vaccine that doesn't cause autism.

I don't know how effective vaccines are. From the graphs on the preceding page it appears that most of these diseases would have died out on their own most likely, but that doesn't mean that some vaccines didn't have a positive impact. 

From what I posted it seems that kids who receive multiple shots at once have the most problems.. 

I just hate the whole attitude that vaccines are OK, scientists know what they are doing and parents do not, so listen to us and shut up. It allows higher powers to control things and it causes people to put too much trust in the system instead of themselves.

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## FindLiberty

Maybe it's the adjuvant(s) in those vaccines...

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## maqsur

> Do vaccines really have anything to do with eradicating some diseases?  These graphs would suggest not:


These graphs talk about DEATH rates, not incidence.  There has been a decrease in general mortality from lots of diseases due to medical advances, sanitary advances, etc.

Reduced mortality does not mean eradication.

Graphs showing INCIDENCE of disease would be more helpful.

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## maqsur

> *
> The question I have is-- did the pre-existing issues, proven to exist in the legal decision, make the kid more susceptible to the autism-causing effect of the vaccine?  Doesn't this set a legal precedent for any unvaccinated, developmentally-delayed child?*


This presupposes that the vaccine does have an autism-causing effect.

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## maqsur

> ...The fact is that thousands of kids are becoming autistic after taking the MMR shot and that is a fact but they still try to force parents and in some cases do force them to give their kids these toxic shots. 
> 
> The defense rests


Not a good defense; please show me these 'facts,' i.e. scientific articles where these thousands of autism cases PROVEN to be caused by the MMR vaccine (or any vaccine).  How many studies need to be done that do NOT show a causal link have to be published before this hysteria calms down?

To your last point, I don't believe they should be forced on anyone.  Vaccinations are preventative, they are not treatments.  Thus the choice should remain with the family/individual.  However, the risk of not vaccinating kids (lack of immunity to severe diseases such as pertussis, measles, meningococcemia, etc.; decrease in herd immunity) outweigh the risk of side effects (mostly allergic reactions to the ingredients, fever, etc.).  I would advocate for vaccination personally, just not in a coerced way.

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## donnay

> Not a good defense; please show me these 'facts,' i.e. scientific articles where these thousands of autism cases PROVEN to be caused by the MMR vaccine (or any vaccine).  How many studies need to be done that do NOT show a causal link have to be published before this hysteria calms down?
> 
> To your last point, I don't believe they should be forced on anyone.  Vaccinations are preventative, they are not treatments.  Thus the choice should remain with the family/individual.  However, the risk of not vaccinating kids (lack of immunity to severe diseases such as pertussis, measles, meningococcemia, etc.; decrease in herd immunity) outweigh the risk of side effects (mostly allergic reactions to the ingredients, fever, etc.).  I would advocate for vaccination personally, just not in a coerced way.



Not a good defense, please show me vaccines prevent diseases?

   "The only safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used."  

                      --Dr. James A. Shannon      National Institutes of Health 

Doctors against vaccines
http://www.vaccinetruth.org/doctors_...t_vaccines.htm

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## pacelli

> I never said it causes every case. The fact is if it causes even one kid to become autistic IT SHOULD BE BANNED period. The fact is that thousands of kids are becoming autistic after taking the MMR shot and that is a fact but they still try to force parents and in some cases do force them to give their kids these toxic shots. 
> 
> The defense rests


What is the process that every parent can use to refuse all "forced" vaccines?  What are the exclusionary clauses?  

Surely if you are aiming to BAN the MMR vaccination, you've already long been aware of the exclusionary clauses.  Please educate us.

Your witness.

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## pacelli

> This presupposes that the vaccine does have an autism-causing effect.


That is absolutely correct.  I have ZERO evidence to indicate that the MMR vaccine causes autism.  I have seen anecdotal reports and heard hearsay evidence.  If the MMR vaccine CAUSED autism, then the majority of children who receive the MMR vaccine would develop autism.  That's one hell of a leap.

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## maqsur

> That is absolutely correct.  I have ZERO evidence to indicate that the MMR vaccine causes autism.  I have seen anecdotal reports and heard hearsay evidence.  If the MMR vaccine CAUSED autism, then the majority of children who receive the MMR vaccine would develop autism.  That's one hell of a leap.


Can't tell if you are being sarcastic, although I suspect you are.  Doesn't really provide any new insight.

This back and forth on vaccines and developmental disorders will go on forever.  To each their own.  Everyone can make up their own mind and decide what they feel is best.

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## dannno

> If the MMR vaccine CAUSED autism, then the majority of children who receive the MMR vaccine would develop autism.  That's one hell of a leap.


No, it's mostly boys who have a low tolerance for heavy metal toxification who are affected.

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## angelatc

> The autism epidemic cannot be denied. On February 15, 2005, the GAO, released a Report titled, "Special Education Children With Autism," that revealed the number of children ages 6 through 21 diagnosed with autism receiving special education services has increased more than 500% over the past 10 years.


I suspect car seats are really the culprit.  We use far more car seats now than we did back in the day, and more kids have autism.

Or maybe it's because we're not eating as many preservatives in our food as we used to.

Oh! It could be the lack of secondhand smoke!  

/sarcasm

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## angelatc

> I never said it causes every case. The fact is if it causes even one kid to become autistic IT SHOULD BE BANNED period.


Nonsense. I want my kids to be vaccinated.  Who the hell are you to say my kids has to die of whooping cough because he didn't get a vaccine that probably wouldn't have made him sick, much less autistic?

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## dannno

> I suspect car seats are really the culprit.  We use far more car seats now than we did back in the day, and more kids have autism.
> 
> Or maybe it's because we're not eating as many preservatives in our food as we used to.
> 
> Oh! It could be the lack of secondhand smoke!  
> 
> /sarcasm


No, it is related to mercury and other toxic elements in vaccines. That is one of the few things that all children have in common that changed during that time period. Not to mention kids are having these seizures right after the shots. It's really not a difficult connection to make.

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## Hamer

> Nonsense. I want my kids to be vaccinated.  Who the hell are you to say my kids has to die of whooping cough because he didn't get a vaccine that probably wouldn't have made him sick, much less autistic?



That is your choice and no one is stopping you but to force my kids to take a shot is wrong. Don't buy into the my kids will put your kids in danger crap either, If your kids are vaccinated my unvaccinated kids are not a threat to yours or anyone elses kids that have been vaccinated.

I guess we should all choose to live retarded rather than take our chances of dying from the measles. BTW I had the measles 3 times and the chicken pocks twice and I am still alive.

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## maqsur

> No, it is related to mercury and other toxic elements in vaccines. That is one of the few things that all children have in common that changed during that time period. Not to mention kids are having these seizures right after the shots. It's really not a difficult connection to make.


Heavy metals are definitely toxic, and there should be concerted efforts to have them removed from any drug/vaccine, etc.  The seizures could also be due to fever, which can develop after some vaccinations (especially MMR).

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## Mani

> That is your choice and no one is stopping you but to force my kids to take a shot is wrong. Don't buy into the my kids will put your kids in danger crap either, If your kids are vaccinated my unvaccinated kids are not a threat to yours or anyone elses kids that have been vaccinated.
> 
> I guess we should all choose to live retarded rather than take our chances of dying from the measles. BTW I had the measles 3 times and the chicken pocks twice and I am still alive.


I agree with this.  Right now children are banned from school, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE if they don't have these shots.

That sucks.

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## donnay

*THE VACCINE EXPERIMENT - In The Service of Good, Pt 1 of 4*

YouTube - THE VACCINE EXPERIMENT - In The Service of Good, Pt 1 of 4


*Vaccine Mercury Brain Degeneration*

YouTube - Vaccine Mercury Brain Degeneration




Then to add to the mix we have to deal with HFCS in EVERYTHING!
*
The FDA sat on evidence of mercury-tainted high-fructose corn syrup* 

http://www.grist.org/article/Some-he...roll-#comments

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## donnay

The title of the OP needs to be changed Dr. Andrew Moulden is Canadian.

Canadian Action Party leader Dr. Andrew Moulden discusses the North American Union 1/3

YouTube - Canadian Action Party leader Dr. Andrew Moulden discusses the North American Union 1/3

Part 2
YouTube - Canadian Action Party leader Dr. Andrew Moulden discusses the North American Union 2/3

Part 3
YouTube - Canadian Action Party leader Dr. Andrew Moulden discusses the North American Union 3/3

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## revolutionary8

> That is your choice and no one is stopping you but to force my kids to take a shot is wrong. Don't buy into the my kids will put your kids in danger crap either, *If your kids are vaccinated my unvaccinated kids are not a threat to yours or anyone elses kids that have been vaccinated.
> *
> I guess we should all choose to live retarded rather than *take our chances* of dying from the measles. BTW I had the measles 3 times and the chicken pocks twice and I am still alive.


Don't tread on me bro.
THAT is the issue, but it becomes clouded when VACCINE COURTS are brought in to decide how YOU must "protect" your own children, and "for their own good". 
It's "for the children".  
REGARDLESS of whether or not YOU believe that vaccines cause autism, shouldn't it be left up to THE PARENTS to decide whether or not to pump their own children with what is IN those vaccines?
btw, what is in all those vaccines?
(this post was not addressed to you specifically Hamer, or you angel, I just get pumped when this topic comes up is all)

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## revolutionary8

> Multi-billionaire, Ted Turner, Jane Fonda's husband, told last week's 27th annual meeting of the National Family Planning and Reproductive Health Association (NEPRHA), "We have to defeat those congressmen and senators who are standing in the way of progress. We've got to win the next election." Ted Turner, founder of CNN and vice chairman of Time-Warner, Inc., was sounding the alarm that something must be done about overpopulation. *This father of five said we could achieve the "ideal" world population of two billion people, as opposed to today's six billion, "if everybody adopted a one-child policy for 100 years." How did Mr. Turner arrive at the ideal population? He learned it from his mentor Professor Paul Erlich, author of the 1968 best-seller, "The Population Bomb." In that book, Erlich predicted major food shortages in the U.S. and by "the 1970s. . . hundreds of millions of people are going to starve to death." Erlich forecasted the starvation of 65 million Americans between 1980 and 1989, and by 1999 the U.S. population would have declined to 22.6 million. Professor Erlich saw England in more desperate situation, saying, "If I were a gambler, I would take even money that England will not exist in the year 2000."*
> 
> Idiots like Erlich and organizations such as Planned Parenthood, the State Department's Agency for International Development (AID) and NEPRHA constantly sound nonsense warnings about how overpopulation produces disaster and poverty. There is absolutely no relationship between high populations, disaster and poverty. P*opulation control idiots might consider Zaire's meager population density of 39 people per square mile to be ideal while Hong Kong's population density of 247,501 people per square mile is problematic. Hong Kong is 6,000 times more crowded than Zaire. Yet Hong Kong's per capita income is $8,260 while Zaire, the world's poorest country, has a per capital income of less than $200.* 
> 
> Planet Earth is loaded with room. We could put the world's entire population into the United States. Doing so would make our po*pulation density 1,531 people per square mile. That's a far lower population density than what now exists in New York (11,440), Los Angeles (9,126) and Houston (7,512). The entire U.S. population could move to Texas and each family of four would enjoy 2.9 acres of land. If the entire world's population moved to Texas, California, Colorado and Alaska, each family of four would enjoy nine-tenths of an acre of land.
> *
> So-called overpopulation problems *are really a result of socialistic government practices that reduce the capacity of people to educate, clothe, house and feed themselves.* Poor countries are rife with agricultural restrictions controls, export and import controls, restrictive licensing, price controls, not to mention gross human rights abuses that encourage their most productive people to emigrate. The most promising anti-poverty tool for poor people and poor countries is personal liberty.
> 
> But let's get back to the population control gang and ask: *suppose the rest of us don't feel like adopting a one-child policy, then what?* The elite's answer will be to use brute government force, like China does, to impose a one-child policy. You say, "Williams, what would make you say that? Just ask who are the heroes of America's liberals, including Ted Turner's wife, Jane Fonda? They are some of history's most despicable blood thirsty tyrants like Mao Zedong, Lenin, Stalin and Castro. Don't forget that it was the 1960s campus liberals who marched around singing the praises of Mao, Lenin and Ho Chi Min. The difference between now and then is that many of these liberals have moved up to become congressmen, senators, presidents, college professors and government workers.
> ...







> *February 19, 1999*
> Ted Turner Calls for Population Control
> 
> In a wide-ranging hour-long interview on PBS, CNN Founder and billionaire environmental extremist Ted Turner let the cat out of the bag on the real goal of climate change extremists - depopulation. Pro-life activists who have attended UN environment meetings where such issues were discussed have often been the subject of ridicule and derision for pointing out that the massive movement behind global warming, retooled to 'climate change', works hand in hand with the culture of death with the aim of depopulation. 
> 
> Speaking on PBS's Charlie Rose program on Tuesday, April 1, Turner stated plainly that next to nuclear disarmament the most pressing world concern is "global climate change" - which he said is caused by too many people. "We're too many people. That's why we have global warming," explained Turner when Rose questioned his comment that we need to "stabilize the population."


Here is a propaganda article about the "*dumb, and/or paranoid, gov't hating Ukranians*" 
:



> Ukranian media spread rumor of plot by Ted Turner .. Vaccine scare in Ukraine ... Rumors of Western plot, death of teen cause families to reject shots
> The Associated Press
> updated 11:23 a.m. CT, Wed., March. 25, 2009
> 
> KIEV, Ukraine - *A widespread scare about vaccine side effects in Ukraine has led to a sharp drop in immunizations that could result in disease outbreaks spreading beyond the former Soviet republic, international and local health officials say.
> 
> Hundreds of thousands of fearful Ukrainians have refused vaccines for diseases such as diphtheria, mumps, polio, hepatitis B, tuberculosis, whooping cough and others this year, according to official estimates. Authorities have canceled a U.N.-backed measles and rubella vaccination campaign funded by U.S. philanthropist Ted Turner, and will have to collect and incinerate nearly 9 million unused doses in coming months.*
> 
> "I never thought I'd see the day where perfectly good vaccines are being destroyed," said Michael Bociurkiw, a spokesman for UNICEF.
> ...


URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29875914/

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## hotbrownsauce

I have Tuberculosis. It was found in me many years ago when I was in grade school (mid 90's). They said the TB was inactive after taking some tests. So I took pills for 12 months I guess antibiotics of some kind? I hope I don't get any complications from that.....

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## Hamer

> Don't tread on me bro.
> THAT is the issue, but it becomes clouded when VACCINE COURTS are brought in to decide how YOU must "protect" your own children, and "for their own good". 
> It's "for the children".  
> REGARDLESS of whether or not YOU believe that vaccines cause autism, shouldn't it be left up to THE PARENTS to decide whether or not to pump their own children with what is IN those vaccines?
> btw, what is in all those vaccines?
> (this post was not addressed to you specifically Hamer, or you angel, I just get pumped when this topic comes up is all)



I agree 100% that the parents should have the right to decide not the courts. 

As far as the pump in statement I assume you didn't mean it in a way that we can shoot meth or mop-n-glo into our kids if we choose because I am against that for I think kids need to be protected and have a voice as well.

The role of Government is to protect Life, Liberty and Property and the courts are to uphold the laws of the constitution. Having a court rule on this issue is the first step to fighting big pharma and protecting the people and children from abuse and harmfull drugs made by big pharma.

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## He Who Pawns

Move to Hot Topics.

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