# News & Current Events > World News & Affairs >  Gaza under attack by Israel

## NOVALibertarian

http://rt.com/news/gaza-israel-hamas-attack-687/

----------


## Zippyjuan

Not good.  They have really been escalating things there. 
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8AD0WP20121114



> (Reuters) - Israel launched a major offensive against Palestinian militants in Gaza on Wednesday, killing the military commander of Hamas in an air strike and threatening an invasion of the enclave that the Islamist group vowed would "open the gates of hell".
> 
> The onslaught shattered hopes that a truce mediated on Tuesday by Egypt could pull the two sides back from the brink of war after five days of escalating Palestinian rocket attacks and Israeli strikes at militant targets.
> 
> Operation "Pillar of Defence" began with a surgical strike on a car carrying the commander of the military wing of Hamas, the Iranian-armed Islamist movement which controls Gaza and dominates a score of smaller armed groups.
> 
> Within minutes of the death of Ahmed Al-Jaabari, big explosions shook Gaza as the Israeli air force struck at selected targets just before sundown, blasting plumes of smoke and debris high above the crowded city.
> 
> Panicking civilians ran for cover and the death toll mounted quickly. Ten people including three children were killed, the health ministry said, and about 40 were wounded. Also among the dead were an 11-month-old baby and a woman pregnant with twins.
> ...

----------


## Confederate

Fix the thread title, Gaza, not Gaze

----------


## dannno

I thought Israel liked teh gaze??

----------


## angelatc

Now I'm going to have to listen to the neocon evangelicals weeping and wailing.

Ugh.

----------


## presence

> Hamas says now in *'open war'* with Israel, promises* 'gates of hell'*


http://rt.com/news/hamas-open-war-israel-694/




> Diplomats say both the Israeli and Palestinian envoys are to speak at the emergency UNSC meeting. *
> 
> 00:51 GMT:* *The United Nations Security Council has called an emergency meeting* to  discuss escalating tensions between Israel and the Palestinian territory  of Gaza. The meeting is scheduled for 0200 GMT, and will take place * behind closed doors.*


http://rt.com/news/gaza-israel-hamas-attack-687/




> Israel strikes Gaza, calls up reservists, *ready to ‘expand’ operation*




targeted killing of Ahmaed Jaabari, head of the Ezzedin Qassam Brigades by airstrike




> The death toll from some 20 strikes has risen to 10, two of them children
> []
> The IDF says all options are on the table in Gaza,* including a ground operation.*






> Israel must bear in mind regional changes following the Arab Spring, the FJP vowed* 
> Egypt 
>  “will not allow the Palestinians to be subjected to Israeli aggression, as in the past.”*


http://rt.com/news/egypt-ambassador-un-israel-719/

----------


## ZenBowman

> http://rt.com/news/hamas-open-war-israel-694/


Pretty dumb to declare open war against someone 100x stronger than you.

BRB challenging Mike Tyson to a boxing match, crying when I lose saying its unfair.

----------


## puppetmaster

Where are the Israeli people when this $#@! happens....why do they not stand up to their terrorist rogue government? Or are they condoning this behavior?
Such a small country and they still can't control the goons who run it.
I am so tired of no accountability in government. (especially ours)

----------


## Bruno

Just waited for the election to be over to begin attack plans already in place.

----------


## jllundqu

I can hear the pleas and tv commercials now... "Support the fellowship of Christians and Jews by donating to the cause of Irsael today... after all, genocide aint THAT bad."

----------


## jkr



----------


## vita3

Wonder what Egypts response will be?

----------


## HOLLYWOOD

Egypt is CIA/CFR run... that's all a BS smokescreen to take our tax dollars and send them to the criminals in Israel.

----------


## COpatriot

Looks like they just hit Tel Aviv a few minutes ago. Up on Drudge now.

Well, here it is. War of 2012. Let's see just how much much Obomba really supports peace.

----------


## gwax23

Hamas has launched over 200 rockets and various missiles into Israel since this began. 8 Israelis are dead. Israel did not "Attack Gaza" as the thread title seems to pretend. Israel is defending itself.

----------


## amy31416

> Hamas has launched over 200 rockets and various missiles into Israel since this began. 8 Israelis are dead. Israel did not "Attack Gaza" as the thread title seems to pretend. Israel is defending itself.


That's what they said the last time, except it wasn't true. Israel violated the ceasefire--and I don't believe that now they're just "defending themselves."

There's only so many times they can bull$#@! and still remain credible.

----------


## jllundqu

<< Grabs chair/popcorn

Have we just witnessed the start or WW3?  If Egypt and Syria get drawn in, Russia will soon follow, Turkey will be all in (NATO)...  Could be messy.

----------


## nano1895

> Where are the Israeli people when this $#@! happens....why do they not stand up to their terrorist rogue government? Or are they condoning this behavior?
> Such a small country and they still can't control the goons who run it.
> I am so tired of no accountability in government. (especially ours)


The majority of them have been probably been indoctrinated with the belief that Israel is a fragile country that is constantly a hair's breadth away from being wiped off the face of the planet. If the US gov't can convince the majority of the population that a bunch of radical brown people in the middle east across the ocean thousands of miles away that they pose an imminent threat and require military intervention imagine how easy it is for the Israeli gov't to convince a population that sees the threat right across their borders.

----------


## dannno

> Hamas has launched over 200 rockets and various missiles into Israel since this began. 8 Israelis are dead. Israel did not "Attack Gaza" as the thread title seems to pretend. Israel is defending itself.


Some how I doubt that, but still maybe Israel should consider closing down the concentration camps they have setup for their neighbors if they want to stop being attacked by people in the concentration camps. I mean, $#@!, if Jewish people in the concentration camps in WWII had tried to stage an attack against Germany I don't think anybody would have complained too much about that except maybe the Gestapo. The only difference now is that the entire premise is presented differently by the media, but the facts aren't that much different.

----------


## amy31416

> Some how I doubt that, but still maybe Israel should consider closing down the concentration camps they have setup for their neighbors if they want to stop being attacked by people in the concentration camps. I mean, $#@!, if Jewish people in the concentration camps in WWII had tried to stage an attack against Germany I don't think anybody would have complained too much about that except maybe the Gestapo. The only difference now is that the entire premise is presented differently by the media, but the facts aren't that much different.


Jews (and Poles, Gypsies, gays, etc.) actually DID stage some attacks on their captors. They're written about as the heroes they are. 

Media spin is truly an amazing tool.

----------


## S.Shorland

The 'gates of hell' will open when our 'beast' their 'mehdi' receives the oath of obedience in Mecca.they will open still further when our 'false prophet' their false Jesus 'issa' appears while the 'mehdi' is praying in Damascus I believe it is.Our Jesus will return in the sky and like the lightning we will all know it so don't be deceived if you aren't worthy to be taken up to meet him in the air.

----------


## dannno

> The 'gates of hell' will open when our 'beast' their 'mehdi' receives the oath of obedience in Mecca.they will open still further when our 'false prophet' their false Jesus 'issa' appears while the 'mehdi' is praying in Damascus I believe it is.Our Jesus will return in the sky and like the lightning we will all know it so don't be deceived if you aren't worthy to be taken up to meet him in the air.


Sounds like project blue beam.

----------


## paulbot24

Or Project Eating Shrooms. Wow. Just $#@!ing wow.

----------


## androidappme

Why are people watching RT? Russia Today?

The people here are not libertarians. They are just idiots.

Russia Today is a Russian government television channel.

----------


## pcosmar

> Why are people watching RT? Russia Today?
> 
> The people here are not libertarians. They are just idiots.
> 
> Russia Today is a Russian government television channel.


So,,, ?

----------


## paulbot24

> Why are people watching RT? Russia Today?
> 
> The people here are not libertarians. They are just idiots.
> 
> Russia Today is a Russian government television channel.


Go back to your cave Golem.

----------


## androidappme

> So,,, ?


The Russian government has propaganda objectives. Talking against Big Government and Oligarchy and Fascism and Socialism and Communism and watching RT or Al Jazeera sounds weird.

----------


## pcosmar

> The 'gates of hell' will open when our 'beast' their 'mehdi' receives the oath of obedience in Mecca.they will open still further when our 'false prophet' their false Jesus 'issa' appears while the 'mehdi' is praying in Damascus I believe it is.Our Jesus will return in the sky and like the lightning we will all know it so don't be deceived if you aren't worthy to be taken up to meet him in the air.


And a whole bunch are going to be disappointed to find that they are stuck in the middle of what they started,,while thinking that they would be snatched out before it.

Surprise...

----------


## androidappme

> Go back to your cave Golem.


It is time to purge out people who says they support Ron Paul and what he stands for but are in the movement because its something popular to do, out of the movement, because they have nothing in them.

----------


## paulbot24

> It is time to purge out people who says they support Ron Paul and what he stands for but are in the movement because its something popular to do, out of the movement, because they have nothing in them.


When did the Liberty movement become "popular"? Will Lady Gaga be doing a song about us? Can't wait for that. I'll have to watch it on youtube since I lost RT when I ditched television.

----------


## WilliamShrugged

> Why are people watching RT? Russia Today?
> 
> The people here are not libertarians. They are just idiots.
> 
> Russia Today is a Russian government television channel.


I guess that means i should quit watching Capital Account....

----------


## androidappme

> When did the Liberty movement become "popular"? Will Lady Gaga be doing a song about us? Can't wait for that. I'll have to watch it on youtube since I lost RT when I ditched television.


Because of Ron Paul and his character. Ron Paul is more than Lady Gaga ever will be. It is sad that people who followed Ron Paul around the campaigns had no substance and Ron Paul lost the nominations because of their immaturity and being ridiculed in the media because of people who called themselves Ron Paul voter but didn't knew a damn thing about liberalism. So sad that he left congress as well.

----------


## MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2

> Well, here it is. War of 2012. Let's see just how much much Obomba really supports peace.



I think you'll be safe just going on what you've learned up to this point.





> It is time to purge out people who says they support Ron Paul and what he stands for but are in the movement because its something popular to do, out of the movement, because they have nothing in them.



You just showed up today and want to lead the purging of various Paul supporters?  Get in line.  A lot of people already want that job.

----------


## S.Shorland



----------


## compromise

While this may not have been the best way to do it, Israel has a right to deal with national security threats. Hamas are a major national security threat to Israel and should be tackled appropriately.

Israel may be far from perfect, but it's relatively tame compared to the sort of things that go on in other countries in the region.

The United States should not condemn the actions taken by Israel. Nor should they be providing them with aid to fund things like this.

----------


## paulbot24

> Because of Ron Paul and his character. Ron Paul is more than Lady Gaga ever will be. It is sad that people who followed Ron Paul around the campaigns had no substance and Ron Paul lost the nominations because of their immaturity and being ridiculed in the media because of people who called themselves Ron Paul voter but didn't knew a damn thing about *liberalism*. So sad that he left congress as well.


*Liberalism*? Your trollness is showing.

----------


## dannno

RT Special Interview with Ron Paul:

http://rt.com/politics/interview-wit...ul-2008-11-27/

----------


## dannno

> *Liberalism*? Your trollness is showing.


Or his spellcheck

----------


## androidappme

> *Liberalism*? Your trollness is showing.


Thats my tablets auto-prediction feature showing. It should be libertarianism.

----------


## dannno

> The Russian government has propaganda objectives. Talking against Big Government and Oligarchy and Fascism and Socialism and Communism and watching RT or Al Jazeera sounds weird.


Have you ever heard of Adam Vs. The Man?

----------


## awake

Israel has plenty of room to be condemned. They continue to exacerbate war by stealing and killing people off of their property.Since the inception of Israel , violent Zionism, bent on territorial expansion is, and always has been, the US and Israeli foreign policy. Its not as complicated as they say... War is always about the theft of and destruction of property.

----------


## androidappme

> Israel has plenty of room to be condemned. They continue to exacerbate war by stealing and killing people off of their property.Since the inception of Israel , violent Zionism, bent on territorial expansion is, and always has been, the US and Israeli foreign policy. Its not as complicated as they say... War is always about the theft of and destruction property.


Yes and Israel pulled out of Gaza.

Israel is so violent and so bent on territorial expansion that its less than the size of New Jersey.

----------


## dannno

> Yes and Israel pulled out of Gaza.


Gaza is a concentration camp occupied by Israel.

----------


## amy31416

Israel has again attacked Gaza. In its aerial and ground assault that began on Saturday, November 10th, at least 7 Palestinians have been killed, 5 of them civilians, 3 of whom were children. Up to 52 others, including 6 women and 12 children, have been wounded.


One of the wounded is carried into a hospital in Gaza City following Israels shelling (Reuters/Mohammed Salem)

As in every vicious military offensive Israel carries out in Gaza, the dominant narrative is that it is a response to rocket fire from Gaza into southern Israel. This is how its being reported in the US, and this is how virtually every American understands it.

And its a lie.

Its true that on Saturday, prior to the expanded Israeli bombardment, the military wing of the Popular Front For the Liberation of Palestine shot an anti-tank missile at an Israeli Defense Forces vehicle near the Gaza border, wounding four Israeli soldiers. But what prompted the firing of the anti-tank missile?

First, on Monday, November 5th, Israeli forces shot and killed 23 year old Ahmad Nabhani when he approached the border fence with Israel. According to at least one account, Nabhani was mentally challenged.

Then, on Thursday, November 8th, the Israeli Occupation Forces  eight tanks and four bulldozers, to be exact  invaded southern Gaza, shooting and killing a 13-year old boy. Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (via):

According to investigations conducted by PCHR, at approximately 16:30 on Thursday, as a result of the indiscriminate shooting by IOF military vehicles that had moved into the Abassan village, 13-year-old Ahmed Younis Khader Abu Daqqa was seriously wounded by a bullet to the abdomen. At the time he was shot, Ahmed had been playing football with his friends in front of his familys house, located nearly 1,200 meters away from the area where the IOF were present.

So, even if honest observers brush to the side the cruel and inhumane Israeli blockade on Gaza and refuse to let it influence the equation of exactly which side started this flare up of violence, it is clear Israel started this latest clash. And in response to the response, Israel has waged a harsh, disproportionate military assault.

This would be a simple thing to understand if, for example, Western media bothered to ask the other side what happened. Palestinian news media immediately reported that the anti-tank missile Israel was supposedly responding to was admitted to by the Popular Resistance Committees, who described it as revenge for preceding Israeli violence on Gaza. But that basic task of honest journalism is apparently out of the question.

Every single Israeli incursion or attack on Gaza is accompanied by the same narrative: Israel fairly responded to unprovoked Palestinian rocket fire. The last major war on Gaza, Operation Cast Lead in December 08-January 09, also carried this narrative. Israel committed war crimes in that one-sided conflict, targeting and killing hundreds of civilians, using indiscriminate weapons, and intentionally destroying ....

Need more?

Read here:  http://antiwar.com/blog/2012/11/11/i...ho-started-it/

Same lies told over and over and over again.

----------


## Confederate

> Gaza is a concentration camp occupied by Israel.


No. It's ghetto blockaded by Israel.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Hamas has launched over 200 rockets and various missiles into Israel since this began. 8 Israelis are dead. Israel did not "Attack Gaza" as the thread title seems to pretend. Israel is defending itself.


The Israeli responce goes beyond proportional.  Hamas sent a few missiles up (as they do from time to time) which caused little damage and Israel assasinated a Hamas official. Now they are calling up people and massing forces at the border for a possible invasion of Palestine. "Who started it first" actually goes back decades. Both have been doing things which upset the other side. 

Israel needs to ease up on the Palestinian territories and allow them more freedom to move and trade and autonomy.  Then they will have less reason to hate and attack Israel.  The Palestinian territories are a police camp where travel and movement of goods are severely restricted.  Their agressive military responce may play well to its own citizens as political theater but it will not improve their security in the long term.

----------


## UWDude

> Hamas has launched over 200 rockets and various missiles into Israel since this began. *8 Israelis are dead*. Israel did not "Attack Gaza" as the thread title seems to pretend. Israel is defending itself.


Source?

----------


## UWDude

> Israel is so violent and so bent on territorial expansion that its less than the size of New Jersey.


Israel is bigger than New Jersey, so which propaganda outlet are you parroting, since you obviously heard this factually incorrect statement somewhere else.  I know none of your arguments come from any type of original thinking.

----------


## compromise

> Israel has plenty of room to be condemned. They continue to exacerbate war by stealing and killing people off of their property.Since the inception of Israel , violent Zionism, bent on territorial expansion is, and always has been, the US and Israeli foreign policy. Its not as complicated as they say... War is always about the theft of and destruction property.


So you believe Ron Paul was wrong when he was one of the only Congressmen to vote against Reagan-led condemnation of Israel for bombing Iraq's nuclear plant?

----------


## compromise

> Gaza is a concentration camp occupied by Israel.


Just as the Cherokee Nation is a concentration camp occupied by Oklahoma..

----------


## dillo

Here comes ww3,  how much anti Palestinian propaganda will be on the news the next couple of weeks?

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Israel is bigger than New Jersey, so which propaganda outlet are you parroting, since you obviously heard this factually incorrect statement somewhere else.  I know none of your arguments come from any type of original thinking.


Actually they are about the same size. 
http://www.iris.org.il/sizemaps/new_jersey.htm




> New Jersey is the 5th-smallest US state, covering about 7800 square miles or 20,000 square kilometers. 
> As the comparison map above shows, the land currently controlled by the State of Israel (including disputed territories) is not much larger. Israel in its pre-1967 borders was 8,019 square miles or 20,770 square kilometers, just barely bigger than New Jersey.

----------


## dannno

> So you believe Ron Paul was wrong when he was one of the only Congressmen to vote against Reagan-led condemnation of Israel for bombing Iraq's nuclear plant?


He is against using the state as a mouth-piece to 'condemn' something or a nation in the name of the people, instead individuals should condemn the actions of governments and such.

----------


## dannno

> Just as the Cherokee Nation is a concentration camp occupied by Oklahoma..


lol... If you're talking about today that's like comparing putting calamine lotion on a bug bite to a hip replacement.

----------


## UWDude

> Actually they are about the same size. 
> http://www.iris.org.il/sizemaps/new_jersey.htm


pre-1967 borders.  And he said smaller, which clearly is not true.  He is parroting some propaganda site.

----------


## juleswin

> So you believe Ron Paul was wrong when he was one of the only Congressmen to vote against Reagan-led condemnation of Israel for bombing Iraq's nuclear plant?


Ron Paul did not support the attack, his objections is that the US shouldn't be telling other countries how to behave.

----------


## UWDude

> Just as the Cherokee Nation is a concentration camp occupied by Oklahoma..


Are there sanctions on honey, sugar, and cement for the Cherokee?
Are there American settlements being taken from the reservation and housing being built on them for white Christians only?
IS there a big long guarded fence, and kill zone, surrounding the Cherokee reservation, with guarded entry ways where every Cherokee that wants to work outside of the reservation must wait in line hours each day to be patted down and given clearance by American Soldiers?

----------


## awake

" When this war began, the Israeli leaders proclaimed that they were not interested    in "one inch" of territory; their fighting was purely defensive.    But now that Israel sits upon its conquests, after repeated violations of UN    cease-fires, it sings a very different tune. Its forces still occupy all of    the Sinai Peninsula; all of Palestinian Jordan has been seized, sending another    nearly 200,000 hapless Arab refugees to join their hundreds of thousands of    forlorn comrades; it has seized a goodly chunk of Syria; and Israel arrogantly    proclaims that it will never, never return the Old City of Jerusalem or internationalize    it; Israeli seizure of all of Jerusalem is simply "not negotiable."

  If Israel has been the aggressor in the Middle East, the role of the United    States in all this has been even more unlovely. The hypocrisy of the U.S. position    is almost unbelievable – or would be if we were not familiar with U.S.    foreign policy over the decades. When the war first began , and it looked for    a moment as if Israel were in danger, the U.S. rushed in to avow its dedication    to the "territorial integrity of the Middle East" – as if the    borders of 1949-67 were somehow embalmed in Holy Writ and had to be preserved    at all costs. But – as soon as it was clear that Israel had won and conquered    once again, America swiftly shed its supposed cherished "principles."    Now there is no more talk of the "territorial integrity of the Middle    East"; now it is all "realism" and the absurdity of going back    to obsolete status quo borders and the necessity for the Arabs to accept a    general settlement in the Middle East, etc. How much more evidence do we need    that an approving United States has always stayed in the wings, ready to come    to the aid of Israel if necessary? How much more evidence do we need that Israel    is now the ally and satellite of the U.S., which in the Middle East as in so    many other areas of the world has assumed the mantle once worn by British imperialism?
 The one thing that Americans must not be lured into believing is that Israel    is a "little" "underdog" against its mighty Arab neighbors.    Israel is a European nation with a European technological standard battling    a primitive and undeveloped foe; furthermore, Israel has behind it, feeding    it, and financing it the massed might of countless Americans and West Europeans,    as well as the Leviathan governments of the United States and its numerous    allies and client states. Israel is no more a "gallant underdog"    because of numerical inferiority than British imperialism was a "gallant    underdog" when it conquered far more populous lands in India, Africa,    and Asia.

Israel, therefore, faces a long-run dilemma which she must someday meet.    Either to continue on her present course and, after years of mutual hostility    and conflict be overthrown by Arab people’s guerrilla war. Or – to change    direction drastically, to cut herself loose completely from Western imperial    ties, and become simply Jewish citizens of the Middle East. If she did that,    then peace and harmony and justice would at last reign in that tortured region.    There is ample precedent for this peaceful coexistence. For in the centuries    before 19th- and 20th-century Western imperialism, Jew and Arab had always    lived well and peacefully together in the Middle East. There is no inherent    enmity or conflict between Arab and Jew. In the great centuries of Arab civilization    in North Africa and Spain, Jews took a happy and prominent part – in contrast    to their ongoing persecution by the fanatics of the Christian West. Shorn of    Western influence and Western imperialism, that harmony can reign once more." *-Rothbard*

----------


## bunklocoempire

I think I'll call up my 'Israel first' aquaintances and offer to drive their sons and daughters to the recruiting station.

----------


## awake

> So you believe Ron Paul was wrong when he was one of the only Congressmen to vote against Reagan-led condemnation of Israel for bombing Iraq's nuclear plant?


So your saying he was *for* bombing Iraq's nuke plant?

----------


## compromise

> Are there sanctions on honey, sugar, and cement for the Cherokee?
> Are there American settlements being taken from the reservation and housing being built on them for white Christians only?
> IS there a big long guarded fence, and kill zone, surrounding the Cherokee reservation, with guarded entry ways where every Cherokee that wants to work outside of the reservation must wait in line hours each day to be patted down and given clearance by American Soldiers?


In the 19th century, it wasn't really all that different, obviously there were technological limitations then.

One major difference is that Israel and Palestine are enemy nations. Long guarded fences, sanctions and kill zones are common along borders between enemy nations. Look at South Korea/North Korea, India/Pakistan, India/Bangladesh, Sudan/South Sudan, Cambodia/Thailand, DRC/Angola, Ethiopia/Eritrea, Venezuela/Columbia, etc. Each country feels the other is a threat to their national security.

----------


## compromise

> So your saying he was *for* bombing Iraq's nuke plant?


Where did I say that? I was responding to someone who said Israel deserve condemnation. Israel deserve nothing from the government. Neither government aid, nor government condemnation. Same with Palestine.

----------


## awake

> Where did I say that? I was responding to someone who said Israel deserve condemnation. Israel deserve nothing from the government. Neither government aid, nor government condemnation. Same with Palestine.


Ahh...Ok, my bad.

----------


## Jon311

Can someone confirm that what started this new wave of violence was Israel's assassination of a Hamas leader?

----------


## dannno

> Can someone confirm that what started this new wave of violence was Israel's assassination of a Hamas leader?


Incorrect

http://antiwar.com/blog/2012/11/11/i...ho-started-it/

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Can someone confirm that what started this new wave of violence was Israel's assassination of a Hamas leader?


Low level "skirmishes" have been going on for practically forever.  But the assasination greatly raised the level of responce and violence.

----------


## UWDude

> In the 19th century, it wasn't really all that different, obviously there were technological limitations then.


Oh, I could have sworn your post was used in a present tense manner for greater misleading impact.
Hey, look:



> Just as the Cherokee Nation _is_ a concentration camp occupied by Oklahoma..


Is that the word "is" I see?
Are you going to try and tell me it depends on what the definition of "is" is?
Or wait, your fingers slipped, and you meant to type "was" right?
Because now you are talking 19th century all of the sudden, when called out on your _BULL$#@!_.

Nice attempt at a fast one, there slick, but you didn't fool me.



> One major difference is that Israel and Palestine are enemy nations.


No, Palestine is not a nation, America and Israel will never allow it to be.  It is an occupied territory.

----------


## Muwahid

The arguments over who started it are totally irrelevant, because the very existence of Israel is an attack on the basic human rights of the Palestinians. The fact of the matter is Hamas is extremely passive in the face of Israel, but they are perfect since they also cast the "Islamist" aura which scares all the westerners unlike the PLO which was seen as the face of resistance for some time.

Hamas actively arrests (and executes!!) people serious about fighting the Israelis, but this wasn't enough. They played nice which the Israelis, maybe it's time they don't anymore. 

BTW I'm pretty sure Hamas' rockets don't even have exploding heads, they just sort of land and break a couple bricks, which is why in any confrontation only like 10 Israelis will die despite hundreds or thousands of these toy rockets being hurled across the border. Hamas also has no incentive to fire rockets at Israel unless Israel transgressed first, I mean duh... that's like asking to die.

----------


## HOLLYWOOD

> Incorrect
> 
> http://antiwar.com/blog/2012/11/11/i...ho-started-it/


What I have viewed/heard on http://wwitv.com/

This all initially started with a couple Israeli solders shot a child. Then it all escalated... Israel says it started by rocket fire from Gaza.

Mohammed Omer reported from Gaza said that the Hamas leader just received the final drafts for a continuous truce, as well as the proposed deal for a permanent peace treaty. recently, reported that Israel is now launching attacks from sea.

Funniest of the US garbage shows reporting: CNBC the Kudlow Report, he and his guests, "IRAN is bombing Israel. All the bombs are from Iran... etc etc."

Remember, anything out of Cairo/Morsi's mouth is all planned.

----------


## Jlasoon

Why do we care what Israel or the Palestinians do to each other to resolve their conflicts? People need to stop meddling with other people's sh*t. Let the strong survive, and let the weak be decimated. Protect yourself, your family, and fight for your country, forget about this crap. Most would be terrified if I was Netanyahu. This crap has nothing to do with borders, or rights, or freedom. This has everything to do with *religion*. Rationality has no place in this conflict. Let one side wipe the floor with the other, and lets all move on. This escalation every few years is getting old, really old. Defending one side over another is infuriating and nauseating at the same time. LET THEM FIGHT, they've been doing it for thousands of years.

----------


## pcosmar

> One major difference is that Israel and Palestine are enemy nations. Long guarded fences, sanctions and kill zones are common along borders between enemy nations. Look at South Korea/North Korea, India/Pakistan, India/Bangladesh, Sudan/South Sudan, Cambodia/Thailand, DRC/Angola, Ethiopia/Eritrea, Venezuela/Columbia, etc. Each country feels the other is a threat to their national security.


???
How did they become enemies..
Palestinians,, (Christian,Jew and Arab) lived peaceably for the most part till Zionists invaded/infested the area.

As with ALL those other countries,, outside instigation is the cause of the fighting.

Israel has only existed since 1948,,, and has been stirring $#@! the whole time.
The Zionists started $#@! in the late 1800s when they came into existence.

They are a curse on the Jewish people and the world.

----------


## pcosmar

> Why do we care what Israel or the Palestinians do to each other to resolve their conflicts?


Because our Foreign Policy and many domestic issues are directly tied to Israel. Israel Lobbies exert considerable and undue influence on our politicians.
And a third World War will have dire and direct consequences on life here.



> LET THEM FIGHT, they've been doing it for thousands of years.


No. No they haven't.
Zionism has not been around for 200 years.  And Palestine was peaceful for the most part for a thousand years before Zionism.

----------


## Jlasoon

> No. No they haven't.
> Zionism has not been around for 200 years.  And Palestine was peaceful for the most part for a thousand years before Zionism.


Peaceful for the most part? LOL. Get out of here. Your bias is glaring. Both sides have their religious nuts. LET THEM FIGHT!!! Intervention is futile. If you've never been to that part of the world, I would suggest you keep your mouth shut.

This goes beyond Zionism.

----------


## robert68

> He is against using the state as a mouth-piece to 'condemn' something or a nation in the name of the people, instead individuals should condemn the actions of governments and such.


It’s not interventionist for congresspersons to criticize a state for bombing another country, especially when the bombing was done with weapons their state provided it.

----------


## phill4paul

Interesting thought....

  The nation of Israel believe that it is their 'right' to hold ancestral lands and that America should help them secure it.
  America, as a union, holds the lands that are ancestral to the native Americans. 
  If we support Israel, economically and with munitions, should we not support the Native Americans in the same way?
  Would we object if other nations did?

  Things that make one go..hmmmm?

----------


## HOLLYWOOD

> It’s not interventionist for congresspersons to criticize a state for bombing another country, especially when the bombing was done with weapons their state provided for it.


Yes, when you look at what commenced this bloodshed, it was Israel's state apparatus that broadcasted the assassination of the HAMAS leader, like boasting their technological superiority at squashing ants in a video game. Weapons funded by stolen money from American taxpayers. This genocide on people creates security and safety repercussions here in the US. We are viewed as the enablers that armed the psychopaths ruling Israel that murder and imprison Palestinians.

US corporate media has been in full out warmongering retardation, along with GIYUS MEGAPHONE propagandizing every piece of social media/www dialog.

Even Joe the Plumber has it wrong in his tweets...


> *Tweets                        Top* * 8h*   *Joe the Plumber*             ‏@*RealJTP*  
>                                                         4 those of u that won't support Israel. I would much  rather b on ur bad side than GOD's bad side. GOD says standby Israel  & I DO #*tcot* #*jtp* 
> 
> *                                           Retweeted 128 times            *  
> 
>  *                                                                                                      Expand                                                                                       *

----------


## robert68

..

----------


## robert68

> Interesting thought....
> 
> 
>   Things that make one go..hmmmm?


Not to those who know and respect the actual facts.

----------


## Qdog

> Pretty dumb to declare open war against someone 100x stronger than you.
> 
> BRB challenging Mike Tyson to a boxing match, crying when I lose saying its unfair.


Thats why you dont challenge him to a boxing match.  You challenge him to never sleep, and when he does you slit his throat.

----------


## Qdog

> The Russian government has propaganda objectives. Talking against Big Government and Oligarchy and Fascism and Socialism and Communism and watching RT or Al Jazeera sounds weird.


What is sad, is that RT and Al Jazeera are more fair and unbiased than our corporately controlled media.

----------


## Qdog

> While this may not have been the best way to do it, Israel has a right to deal with national security threats. Hamas are a major national security threat to Israel and should be tackled appropriately.
> 
> Israel may be far from perfect, but it's relatively tame compared to the sort of things that go on in other countries in the region.
> 
> The United States should not condemn the actions taken by Israel. Nor should they be providing them with aid to fund things like this.


yep, The Nazis crushing the jewish ghetto resistance in ww2 was a matter of national security as well.

----------


## dillo

America helping Israel hold on to stolen land from the Palastinians is like Russia helping the American Indians take back all of their land.  The indians lost their land 200 years ago, the israelis 1000

----------


## pcosmar

> Peaceful for the most part? LOL. Get out of here. Your bias is glaring. Both sides have their religious nuts. LET THEM FIGHT!!! Intervention is futile. If you've never been to that part of the world*, I would suggest you keep your mouth shut.*
> 
> This goes beyond Zionism.


I can search history. Yes there have been empires. and the have had conflicts. 
And yes,,politicized religion have been used to soup folks up. There was nothing Christian about the Crusades,, It was about empire expansion.

The fact is,, that was a relatively peaceful area before the Zionist movement in the late 1800s. It was getting violent in the 1900s as The same forces pushed 2 World Wars (Rothschild Empire). There was a full blown Zionist invasion in the 1930s with aid from Nazi interests.

These are verifiable facts. Zionism is National Socialism (by definition), It is not Judaism.  The founders of Zionism rejected Judaism and rejected God, and only use it as a political tool.




I would suggest you educate yourself.

----------


## furface

This is turning out to be an interesting conflict. The Palestinian rats have been busy since Israel last got their willies out on Gaza.  Considering rats hanging around in places they've dwelt for thousands of years, I'll pick the local rats over the newcomer wolfs every time.  PressTV is reporting a downed Israeli F-16.  Whether it's true or not, it raises lots of question, not the least of which is what is happening to the anti-aircraft equipment America & allies are giving to Syrian rebels.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> First, on Monday, November 5th, Israeli forces shot and killed 23 year old Ahmad Nabhani when he “approached the border fence with Israel.” According to at least one account, Nabhani was mentally challenged.
> 
> Read here:  http://antiwar.com/blog/2012/11/11/i...ho-started-it/


Now why does that sound so familiar? Militarized police killing innocent people under dubious circumstances? Circular force continuum? How many Palestinian dogs are getting shot?

----------


## pcosmar

> How many Palestinian dogs are getting shot?


The Zionists consider them all dogs.



> "[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs." 
> _Prime Minister Menachem Begin_





> "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
> 
> _David Ben-Gurion_

----------


## robert68

> The Zionists consider them all dogs.


Shhhh..... Americans aren't supposed to know that.

----------


## Barrex

> *Gaza under attack by Israel 				*/


*
AND VICE VERSA!*

----------


## Jlasoon

> I would suggest you educate yourself.


If you haven't been to that part of the world "SHHH". Your argument reminds me of stupid Democrats who blame our economic woes on George Bush. Yes, he may of helped in the destruction, but the reality is that 100 years of Fed policy has killed our economy.

Like I said, you see Zionism, but I see religious zeal, the Crusades, the Muslim Conquests and everything in-between including the *BOOK OF GENESIS*.

----------


## Jlasoon

> *
> AND VICE VERSA!*


Too much anti-semitism within the Ron Paul faction. Don't you know that the poor Palestinians are simply trying to enjoy their hot cocoa and gum gum drops?

----------


## pcosmar

> Too much anti-semitism within the Ron Paul faction. Don't you know that the poor Palestinians are simply trying to enjoy their hot cocoa and gum gum drops?


It is not "anti-semitism"

Palestinians are mostly Semite,, Zionists are mostly NOT.

They are Khazar ancestry,, and that would make them Japhetic. (as am I)

----------


## Feeding the Abscess

> Now why does that sound so familiar? Militarized police killing innocent people under dubious circumstances? Circular force continuum? How many Palestinian dogs are getting shot?


Also important:

It happened near the border.

Immigration hawks take notice. _This is what you ostensibly support_.

----------


## furface

> Too much anti-semitism within the Ron Paul faction. Don't you know that the poor Palestinians are simply trying to enjoy their hot cocoa and gum gum drops?


Did someone mention anti-semenism?  It's a terrible thing you know.  When your girlfriend or wife doesn't swallow it's a horrible insult to your masculinity.

----------


## angelatc

> Too much anti-semitism within the Ron Paul faction. Don't you know that the poor Palestinians are simply trying to enjoy their hot cocoa and gum gum drops?


AIPAC is a master at propaganda.  It cann't be a coincidence that everytime the fighting in that area starts, new posters show up, either disrupting threads that criticize Israel or calling us a bunch of Jew haters.

The more I see this, the more evil I see.  The truth doesn't require smokescreens.

----------


## androidappme

The religious ideology of the Palestinian Authority religious leaders can be summarized by eight essential principles:

*Regarding the Jews:*

    Jews are the enemy of Allah.

    Islam is fighting a continuous religious war against the Jews.

    The killing of Jews is a religious obligation.

    Palestinians are the vanguard in this war against the Jews, and all Islamic nations are obligated to assist in this war.

*Regarding Israel:*

- All of the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea (which includes all of Israel) is a religious Waqf -- an Islamic religious trust. Any Moslem who relinquishes any part to Israel is damned to Hell.

- All agreements with Israel are inherently temporary in nature, and are signed only because of Israel's temporary balance of power advantage.

- Allah will replace Moslems who shirk their obligation to battle Israel.

- The ultimate destruction of Israel is a certainty.

The Palestinians repeatedly use Islamic sources to defend this religious hatred, even demanding the killing of Jews as a current obligation and the will of Allah. At least four times in recent months, Palestinian religious leaders have taught publicly that the following Hadith (Islamic traditions attributed to Mohammed) is an authoritative directive of Islam today, expressing Allah's will that obedient Moslems kill Jews. According to Sheikh Muhammed Abd al Hadi La'afi, quoted in the official P.A. newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida (May 18, 2001), and Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi, delivering the main Friday sermon on Palestinian TV (April 13, 2001), the Hadith itself states:

    "The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'"

----------


## furface

You seem to be suffering from anti-semenism androidappme. You should masturbate using real physical parts, not the video screen in your tiny, little head.




> The religious ideology of the Palestinian Authority religious leaders can be summarized by eight essential principles:
> 
> *Regarding the Jews:*
> 
>     Jews are the enemy of Allah.
> 
>     Islam is fighting a continuous religious war against the Jews.
> 
>     The killing of Jews is a religious obligation.
> ...

----------


## MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2

> It is not "anti-semitism"
> 
> Palestinians are mostly Semite,, Zionists are mostly NOT.
> 
> They are Khazar ancestry,, and that would make them Japhetic. (as am I)



I'm interested in this, if you could share a few links without too much trouble.  (will not change my opinion on this $#@!, but I like education and would personally appreciate your efforts.)

----------


## Aeroneous

Not trying to derail this thread, but does anyone have a recommendation for a good book pertaining to the creation of Israel or its history in general?  I would prefer something without bias, although I know that's going to be next to impossible to come by.  This is one aspect of international relations that I have to admit to being very uneducated about.

----------


## furface

> Not trying to derail this thread, but does anyone have a recommendation for a good book pertaining to the creation of Israel or its history in general?  I would prefer something without bias, although I know that's going to be next to impossible to come by.  This is one aspect of international relations that I have to admit to being very uneducated about.


Probably not exactly what you're looking for, but check this out.

http://inventionofthejewishpeople.com/

Shlomo Sand is an Israeli history professor, and his research is solid.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2, the link would probably work for your question as well.




> “Countering official Zionist historiography, Sand questions whether the Jewish People ever existed as a national group with a common origin in the Land of Israel/Palestine. He concludes that the Jews should be seen as a religious community comprising a mishmash of individuals and groups that had converted to the ancient monotheistic religion but do not have any historical right to establish an independent Jewish state in the Holy Land. In short, the Jewish People, according to Sand, are not really a “people” in the sense of having a common ethnic origin and national heritage. They certainly do not have a political claim over the territory that today constitutes Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, including Jerusalem.”


http://www.ifamericansknew.org

----------


## Aeroneous

> Probably not exactly what you're looking for but, check this out.
> 
> http://inventionofthejewishpeople.com/
> 
> Shlomo Sand is an Israeli history professor, and his research is solid.
> 
> MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2, the link would probably work for your question as well.


Thanks for the link!

----------


## pcosmar

> If you haven't been to that part of the world "SHHH". Your argument reminds me of stupid Democrats who blame our economic woes on George Bush. Yes, he may of helped in the destruction, but the reality is that 100 years of Fed policy has killed our economy.
> 
> Like I said, you see Zionism, but I see religious zeal, the Crusades, the Muslim Conquests and everything in-between including the *BOOK OF GENESIS*.


I know the Book. From Genesis to Revelation.

Khazars and Zionists are on the wrong side of this.



> I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.





> I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liarsI will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.

----------


## Liberty74

> Hamas has launched over 200 rockets and various missiles into Israel since this began. 8 Israelis are dead. Israel did not "Attack Gaza" as the thread title seems to pretend. Israel is defending itself.


Exactly! 

The anti-semitic people in here don't understand the difference between aggression and defense. Imagine yourself surrounded by a dozen pit pulls foaming at the mouth to kill you. Several launch themselves at you and you kick one in the stomach. According to PETA, your the bad guy. The Jewish people are only 13 million worldwide while Muslims are 1 billion. Stop blaming the Jews for everyone else's problems. The Jewish people just want to be left alone on their tiny land they reside on which btw 20% of those people are Arabs. Where are the Jews living in those Arab countries surrounding Israel? Oh that's right, they were all killed or kicked out.

Hamas are launching rockets to KILL. Israel are launching rockets back to take out Hamas' ability to launch such rockets. Know the $#@!ing difference.

If Muslims give up their weapons, there will be peace. If Jews give up their weapons, there will be genocide.

----------


## Occam's Banana

> Where are the Jews living in those Arab countries surrounding Israel? Oh that's right, they were all killed or kicked out.


The largest Jewish population in the Middle-East outside of Israel is in Iran. The Iranian Jews are even guaranteed seats in the Iranian legislature.

----------


## robert68

> Not trying to derail this thread, but does anyone have a recommendation for a good book pertaining to the creation of Israel or its history in general?  I would prefer something without bias, although I know that's going to be next to impossible to come by.  This is one aspect of international relations that I have to admit to being very uneducated about.


"The Alienation of a Homeland:How Palestine Became Israel*"
by Stephen P. Halbrook

The Journal of Libertarian Studies, Vol. V, No. 4 (Fall 1981)

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> Exactly! 
> 
> The *anti-semitic people in here* don't understand the difference between aggression and defense. Imagine yourself surrounded by a dozen pit pulls foaming at the mouth to kill you. Several launch themselves at you and you kick one in the stomach. According to PETA, your the bad guy. The Jewish people are only 13 million worldwide while Muslims are 1 billion. Stop blaming the Jews for everyone else's problems. The Jewish people just want to be left alone on their tiny land they reside on which btw 20% of those people are Arabs. Where are the Jews living in those Arab countries surrounding Israel? Oh that's right, they were all killed or kicked out.
> 
> Hamas are launching rockets to KILL. Israel are launching rockets back to take out Hamas' ability to launch such rockets. Know the $#@!ing difference.
> 
> If Muslims give up their weapons, there will be peace. If Jews give up their weapons, there will be genocide.


What anti-semites? People opposed to war are automatically anti-semites? Nice.

And there have been Jewish people for centuries in all of the major nations in the Middle-East. It has been the post 9/11 wars and separatist violence that has resulted in massive ethnic cleansing, which has displaced many people, including Jews, Christians, and people of various Muslim sects that have found themselves suddenly in the wrong neighborhood or village.

----------


## RockEnds

> Peaceful for the most part? LOL. Get out of here. Your bias is glaring. Both sides have their religious nuts. LET THEM FIGHT!!! Intervention is futile. If you've never been to that part of the world, I would suggest you keep your mouth shut.
> 
> This goes beyond Zionism.


I've been there.  May I speak?

n/m I don't need your permission.




> Why do we care what Israel or the Palestinians do to each other to resolve their conflicts? People need to stop meddling with other people's sh*t. Let the strong survive, and let the weak be decimated. Protect yourself, your family, and fight for your country, forget about this crap. Most would be terrified if I was Netanyahu. This crap has nothing to do with borders, or rights, or freedom. This has everything to do with religion. Rationality has no place in this conflict. Let one side wipe the floor with the other, and lets all move on. This escalation every few years is getting old, really old. Defending one side over another is infuriating and nauseating at the same time. LET THEM FIGHT, they've been doing it for thousands of years.


You are simply repeating propaganda.

----------


## presence

https://twitter.com/i/#!/AnonymousGr...com%2FjvUuoXaU

----------


## Original_Intent

> I know the Book. From Genesis to Revelation.
> 
> Khazars and Zionists are on the wrong side of this.


Pete, you are awesome! I'd really like to spend hours chatting with you and comparing notes - maybe in the next life.

----------


## Aeroneous

> "The Alienation of a Homeland:How Palestine Became Israel*"
> by Stephen P. Halbrook
> 
> The Journal of Libertarian Studies, Vol. V, No. 4 (Fall 1981)


Thanks for the recommendation!  I'll check it out.

----------


## Meatwasp

> It is not "anti-semitism"
> 
> Palestinians are mostly Semite,, Zionists are mostly NOT.
> 
> They are Khazar ancestry,, and that would make them Japhetic. (as am I)


 I read quite awhile ago that some jewish? guy said, he hoped he wasn't jewish and actually  from Khazar as he was getting tired of being blamed for killing Jesus.

----------


## mport1

Can somebody please summarize the history between Israel and the Palestinians for me?  I don't have the time to research it in depth and cut through all the propaganda from both sides.

My intuition tells me that Israel is the aggressor and the worse of the two evils.  Antiwar.com seems to present this narrative as well.  So, what is really going on with the whole situation?

----------


## Orgoonian

Start at about 2:45












Anti Semite = Pro Israel

----------


## MelissaWV

> Pretty dumb to declare open war against someone 100x stronger than you.
> 
> BRB challenging Mike Tyson to a boxing match, crying when I lose saying its unfair.


If Mike Tyson killed your mom after your uncle had killed Mike Tyson's pet tiger who had in turn previously maimed your cousin's friend who had previously worn a tiger-skin coat that had once belonged to Mike Tyon's manager but had to be sold at auction because the manager was in debt to your sister... then it'd be more like this.

I had to actually explain to my mom that Hamas did not just wake up and decide to fire rockets at Israel.

----------


## furface

The original "anti-semites" used the term to label themselves.  It was a pseudo-scientific term they invented to basically lump Jews together racially with Arabs, a supreme insult in anti-Arab, anti-Muslim Europe.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...lhelmMarr.html 




> Marr’s conception of antisemitism focused on the supposed racial, as opposed to religious, characteristics of the Jews. His organization, the League of Antisemites, introduced the word “antisemite” into the political lexicon and established the first popular political movement based entirely on anti-Jewish beliefs.


The driving force historically for "anti-semitism" is European hatred of North Africans & Middle Easterners.  For instance Gypsies were ethnically cleansed during WWII and are still suffering profoundly from racism in Europe.  The term "Gypsy" comes from falsely equating them to EGYPtians.  

There are many theories about the driving force for the Nazi holocaust, however there is little evidence that it came from systemic cultural Jew hatred in Germany.  Hitler appeared to have a personal pathological hatred of Jews which appeared to have been turned into government policy in the later part of WWII.  Nazi Germany, being like all modern Western "democracies," was susceptible to the whims and stupidity of individual leaders, with disastrous consequences to millions of innocent people, a policy problem that is still going on today with virtually all Western "democracies."

Of course the correlation between the holocaust & attacking Palestine is a connection born in only the most viscous and pathological of world views.  There are lots of ugly things driving the current situation in the Middle East.  A few stray Muslim blow back practitioners certainly aren't the primary driving forces.

----------


## presence

> Can somebody please summarize the history between Israel and the  Palestinians for me?  I don't have the time to research it in depth and  cut through all the propaganda from both sides.


Jews believe in a *spiritual place* called Israel that God gives to the righteous.  Jews get gassed by million in WWII... UN gives Zionists most of Palestine and names it "Israel".  Only Jews have rights in this newly created land. Non jews say WTF we've been here for generations?  They go to war.  Lose.  Zionist Israel occupies the rest of Palestine (gaza/west bank) and imposes themselves on this occupied land w/ illegal settlements.  UN says its $#@!ed... but lets it slide.  US finances it all.  Muslims throw rocks and mortars at the illegal settlements... occasionally into Israel proper.  Few injuries... but persistent petty rock and mortar attacks on what was once theirs.  Israel tends to bomb the $#@! out of them and bulldoze any trace.  

This is generally the face of israel:




And this is the face of palestine:




You've got a running average of about 10 Palestinian children killed per Israeli child for the past 2-3 decades.

do your own research, this is a good start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli...inian_conflict

I tend to take the anti-Israel stance.

From those 3 videos above... the last one; Jimmy C from 2:20 - 2:40 is my bottom line on the whole situation.

----------


## COpatriot



----------


## Brett85

> I tend to take the anti-Israel stance.


I never could've guessed.

----------


## UWDude

> Can somebody please summarize the history between Israel and the Palestinians for me?  I don't have the time to research it in depth and cut through all the propaganda from both sides.
> 
> My intuition tells me that Israel is the aggressor and the worse of the two evils.  Antiwar.com seems to present this narrative as well.  So, what is really going on with the whole situation?


In the 1800's nationalism and socialism were on the rise as ideas.  (Germany did not become a nation until 1871).
Jewish intellectuals, like so many other nationalities, began to define what makes a Jew a Jew, (like Serbs, Germans, Ukrianians, etc were doing.)
The came zionism, in the 1890's founded by Thedor Herzl, and the hope for a homeland.
The idea was to buy a bunch of land somewhere, and create a socialist or communist state: New York, Argentina (who was actively recruiting Europeans in attempts to modernize) or Israel.

At the time, palestine was owned by the crumbling and distant Ottoman empire, and there were no states so to speak of in the region.
After WW I, the Ottoman Empire vanished, and the Brits got the area known as Palestine.  
The Brits tried to limit the influx of Jewish settlers between the wars, but failed, and militant anti-Brit, (Brits were seen as pro-arab) organizations were formed, like Irgun and Hergannah.  After the holocaust, these organizations became as extremist as you would expect a people who lost 6 million of their own would, and started a bombing/terror campaign against Brits and Arabs.

Brits didn't want to deal with it.  And in 1947, they went to the UN, and proposed a two state settlement.  Zionists had bought 6% of the land, had 31% of the population,. but were given 48% of the land, and Arabs, the other 52%.  America, under Truman, was the first to say OK, and many nations followed.  Israel became a state.  Within a week, the Arab states surrounding Israel invaded, on behalf of the Palestinians, because they wanted to get rid of the Palestinian immigrant problem, and for their own personal ambitions.  (most of these states were brand new post-colonial monarchies propped up by Britain and France).

They surely could have won, except that they had no coordination, and no common goal.  Jordan was the most successful of the war, but after seizing the west bank and part of Jerusalem, stopped, the King happy with his gains.  The paramilitary groups in Israel slaughtered Palestinians, and many fled the country.  Zionist narrative says the Palestinians fled because they thought victory was near, Palestinian narrative says they fled because they feared for their lives.  End result was all who fled were not allowed back in, and their homes, farms and plantations were seized and given to Jews.

In 1976, The Arab states again decided to go to war with Israel, under Egypt's Nasser, who was hoping to form a pan-Arabic state, and because all of the nations around Israel were sick of supporting and dealing with Palestinian refugees, who were starting to cause violence in their new host countries.  At this time, the Arab world was westernizing.  Women wore miniskirts and beehives, western music, everything.  The Arabs were sure they would win, because their cause was just.  But they were defeated handily.  Israel took the West Bank, Gaza, the Sinai, and the Golan Heights.  Only the Sinai was returned after 1982.

This is when Islamist fundamentalism really took of, and gained hold in popular culture.  Arabs felt they had lost because they were sinful, and no longer following the teachings of Islam. 

Since 1976, Israel has been slowly seizing lands in the west bank, and the Golan heights, and turning them into state-sponsored settlements for Jews only.  Palestinian groups have been committing bombing/terrorist campaign and demanding everything from the destruction of Israel, to the right of return (Palestinians are not allowed to immigrate to Israel, as Israel is a Jewish state, and does not want to be outnumbered by Arabs) to their own state.

----------


## klamath

I think RP forums does  great harm in reinforcing racist stereotypes people have of RP's ideas by always wading full on into debating who is right and whole is wrong in a conflicts in the world, we should just wipe our hands of. 
I have long heard the argument that we have to take sides because israel has undue influence on the US foreign policy. They do, however I will argue the the british actually have Far far more influence than the Israelis. They have actually dragged us into huge wars. The British have actually invaded 90% of the nations of the world. Many of the problems in the middle east are the result the country boundries draw by the British including israel and palestine however I am not seeing long threads on the british. 
The british can do what the british can do but I just want the US to stay out of wars other nations get themselves into. 
I want our country to mind our own business including people on these forums. 
If people truely believed in RP they should note RP would not even vote for a resolution condeming other countries obvious atrocities. Why? Because he believes that even chosing sides with no actual physical support was  interfering in other nations.

----------


## MelissaWV

> I* think RP forums does  great harm in reinforcing racist stereotypes people have of RP's ideas by always wading full on into debating who is right and whole is wrong in a conflicts in the world, we should just wipe our hands of.* I have long heard the argument that we have to take sides because israel has undue influence on the US foreign policy. They do, however I will argue the the british actually have Far far more influence than the Israelis. They have actually dragged us into huge wars. The British have actually invaded 90% of the nations of the world. Many of the problems in the middle east are the result the country boundries draw by the British including israel and palestine however I am not seeing long threads on the british. 
> The british can do what the british can do but I just want the US to stay out of wars other nations get themselves into. 
> I want our country to mind our own business including people on these forums. 
> If people truely believed in RP they should note RP would not even vote for a resolution condeming other countries obvious atrocities. Why? Because he believes that even chosing sides with no actual physical support was  interfering in other nations.


And if someone got that impression, I would ask them to reread the thread and look to see precisely how many people have taken a side.  Of those, how many are advocating some sort of action on the United States' part?  You can still take a personal side on something, and not want to legislate it.  Ron Paul does that on a large number of issues.

----------


## awake

> Can somebody please summarize the history between Israel and the Palestinians for me?  I don't have the time to research it in depth and cut through all the propaganda from both sides.
> 
> My intuition tells me that Israel is the aggressor and the worse of the two evils.  Antiwar.com seems to present this narrative as well.  So, what is really going on with the whole situation?



Here is Rothbard on the whole mess... The state of Israel isn't the innocent victim here...not by a long shot.

----------


## klamath

> And if someone got that impression, I would ask them to reread the thread and look to see precisely how many people have taken a side.  Of those, how many are advocating some sort of action on the United States' part?  You can still take a personal side on something, and not want to legislate it.  Ron Paul does that on a large number of issues.


 Does he go on record saying this county is right and that country is wrong? I don't think so.

----------


## MelissaWV

> Does he go on record saying this county is right and that country is wrong? I don't think so.


He goes on record as saying any number of moral issues are this or that, and makes no move to legislate them.  I think if you asked him directly, he'd be hard pressed to deny that the death of a baby via rocket fire is a bad thing.  Or would he say he can't make that determination because he doesn't get involved in foreign affairs?




> If I personally favor one side or the other side then it’s really pretty academic because politically I don’t want to be involved. If I wanna say well, you know, I really think the Palestinians have been ripped off and therefore all the blame is on Israel, then I’ve sorta stepped in a little bit more than I want to. I can have a personal opinion but politically my position is that America would be much better off if we just minded our own business

----------


## klamath

> No, instead he goes on record as saying any number of moral issues are this or that, and makes no move to legislate them.  I think if you asked him directly, he'd be hard pressed to deny that the death of a baby via rocket fire is a bad thing.  Or would he say he can't make that determination because he doesn't get involved in foreign affairs?


No he would be apalled at the individual suffering, and death on all sides as I am, but he would say which nation was right or wrong? I don't think so.

----------


## klamath

If we as the people of a different country can without a shadow of a doubt determine who is unequivically right and who is wrong in a foreign conflict then, since we are talking morals, we as a nation should be morally obligated to came to the aid of the unequivically right country. I don't believe we can. On an individual scale it would be like if I saw a little girl get grabbed and raped I would feel morally oblicated to kick the sh*t out of the rapist. Yes I am intervening and i would not feel wrong doing it.

----------


## robert68

> ... Non jews say WTF we've been here for generations?  They go to war.  Lose.   
> ...


The Palestinians never waged any war. They were kept defenseless by the British and British led Zionist forces in "Special Night Squads". The 750,000 Palestinians had already been driven from their homes before the "Arab armies" got involved.

----------


## MelissaWV

> No he would be apalled at the individual suffering, and death on all sides as I am, but he would say which nation was right or wrong? I don't think so.


Did you even listen to him...

Again, who in this thread is advocating one side being absolutely right and the use of deadly force on that side's behalf by the US?

It's not exactly "all of the forums" or even most.

----------


## robert68

> Son of a Famed Israeli General Speaks Out
> 
> Posted by Lew Rockwell on October 12, 2012 09:56 AM
> 
> Writes Bob Wenzel:
> Miko Peled, author of The Generals Son, whose father was the renowned Israeli general Matti Peled, spoke earlier this month in Seattle. The video is over an hour long, but it is a MUST view. Find the time to view it. It is history from a perspective you have never heard before.


..

----------


## Dystopian

Oh but they are the chosen people, haven't you heard?  They get to murder all the women and children they like.  Their "god" seems to get off on it, haven't you read the old Testament?

----------


## puppetmaster

> I think RP forums does  great harm in reinforcing racist stereotypes people have of RP's ideas by always wading full on into debating who is right and whole is wrong in a conflicts in the world, we should just wipe our hands of. 
> I have long heard the argument that we have to take sides because israel has undue influence on the US foreign policy. They do, however I will argue the the british actually have Far far more influence than the Israelis. They have actually dragged us into huge wars. The British have actually invaded 90% of the nations of the world. Many of the problems in the middle east are the result the country boundries draw by the British including israel and palestine *however I am not seeing long threads on the british.* 
> The british can do what the british can do but I just want the US to stay out of wars other nations get themselves into. 
> I want our country to mind our own business including people on these forums. 
> If people truely believed in RP they should note RP would not even vote for a resolution condeming other countries obvious atrocities. Why? Because he believes that even chosing sides with no actual physical support was  interfering in other nations.


I guaranfukintee you that there would be a long ass thread if this was being done by the Brits.......actually longer than this thread as everyone here is used to the Israel/Palestine conflict

----------


## klamath

> Did you even listen to him...
> 
> Again, who in this thread is advocating one side being absolutely right and the use of deadly force on that side's behalf by the US?
> 
> It's not exactly "all of the forums" or even most.


Your video hadn't posted when I answered. Unfortunately I can't waste bandwidth watching. I am on a bandwidth noose. If the quote of RP's is the point of the video then I believe he agrees with what I am saying. He wouldn't say which side he was supporting personally. 
We are a worldwide political forum susposedly representing the belief of RP's noninterventionist foreign policy yet many are avidly taking sides in a foreign conflict and I think it is counter productive. That is just my opinion, hopefully some will see it my way and deal only with our countries involvement. With that I am out of this thread. I said my piece

----------


## MelissaWV

> Your video hadn't posted when I answered. Unfortunately I can't waste bandwidth watching. I am on a bandwidth noose. If the quote of RP's is the point of the video then I believe he agrees with what I am saying. He wouldn't say which side he was supporting personally. 
> We are a worldwide political forum susposedly representing the belief of RP's noninterventionist foreign policy yet many are avidly taking sides in a foreign conflict and I think it is counter productive. That is just my opinion, hopefully some will see it my way and deal only with our countries involvement. With that I am out of this thread. I said my piece


He uses the phrase "concentration camp" to refer to conditions in Gaza... I think that's a pretty strong personal opinion.

No one here supports actually legislating taking a side, or sending troops, or sending money, that I have seen.

This is along the lines of Ron's personal views on abortion, drugs, or marriage... and the way he puts all of that aside in order to do the Constitutional thing.

----------


## Brett85

> I think RP forums does  great harm in reinforcing racist stereotypes people have of RP's ideas by always wading full on into debating who is right and whole is wrong in a conflicts in the world, we should just wipe our hands of.


If the average person came on these forums and read all of these anti Israel comments they would be turned off immediately and wouldn't give the liberty movement a 2nd thought.  It's this kind of stuff that will hurt Rand if he decides to run for President in 2016.

----------


## Aeroneous

> If the average person came on these forums and read all of these anti Israel comments they would be turned off immediately and wouldn't give the liberty movement a 2nd thought.  It's this kind of stuff that will hurt Rand if he decides to run for President in 2016.


That's because the average person can't comprehend the idea that there are events which took place outside of their short lifespan.  If it happened before their birth, most people don't care about it or can't be swayed to even learn about it.

You are correct, unfortunately.  At the same time, I think part of being a good liberty supporter is educating yourself.  If a person was that closed minded to begin with they were probably never going to come onboard anyway.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> If a person was that closed minded to begin with they were probably never going to come onboard anyway.


I suppose you can keep telling yourself that.

----------


## COpatriot

In case you're interested, this guy is broadcasting a live audio feed from Gaza. I've had it on for the last hour or so and it is spooky. The sound of Israeli drones flying overhead never stops and you hear the occasional blast.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/operation-pillar-of-cloud

----------


## puppetmaster

> If the average person came on these forums and read all of these anti Israel comments they would be turned off immediately and wouldn't give the liberty movement a 2nd thought. * It's this kind of stuff that will hurt Rand if he decides to run for President in 2016.*


I suppose you can keep telling yourself that.

seriously trying hard...you should get a raise

----------


## Muwahid

> If the average person came on these forums and read all of these anti Israel comments they would be turned off immediately and wouldn't give the liberty movement a 2nd thought.  It's this kind of stuff that will hurt Rand if he decides to run for President in 2016.


This is a forum to share opinions were not the 2016 liberty HQ. If they run off because people personally don't like Israel what happens if they see pot smokers here, or gays, or EGAD they see me a muslim! This forum is just a melting pot of people who traditionally can't stand eachother united under the banner of LEAVE US ALONE FEDS! And I just think that is wonderful.

----------


## Smart3

> This is a forum to share opinions were not the 2016 liberty HQ. If they run off because people personally don't like Israel what happens if they see pot smokers here, or gays, or EGAD they see me a muslim! This forum is just a melting pot of people who traditionally can't stand eachother united under the banner of LEAVE US ALONE FEDS! And I just think that is wonderful.


In your defense, I have yet to see you wielding a sword and ak-47 and promising to kill the mushrikeen on the forum. 

and presumably, most gays on this forum agree with getting the govt out of the marriage business, so they wouldn't be the "enemy" to a RINO who came here looking for info on Dr. Rand Paul.

----------


## robert68

> Does he go on record saying this county is right and that country is wrong? I don't think so.


You think wrong.

----------


## Pauls' Revere

so, what would happen if Egypt, Gaza, Jordan, Syria, lebanon, The West Bank, and for $#@!s and giggles Iran. All decided to simultaneously attack Israel?

----------


## Feeding the Abscess

> so, what would happen if Egypt, Gaza, Jordan, Syria, lebanon, The West Bank, and for $#@!s and giggles Iran. All decided to simultaneously attack Israel?


The Middle East would be turned into a parking lot and the neocons would get their wish of redrawing the region.

----------


## John F Kennedy III



----------


## John F Kennedy III

> Hamas has launched over 200 rockets and various missiles into Israel since this began. 8 Israelis are dead. Israel did not "Attack Gaza" as the thread title seems to pretend.* Israel is defending itself.*


Not true.

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> Because of Ron Paul and his character. Ron Paul is more than Lady Gaga ever will be. It is sad that people who followed Ron Paul around the campaigns had no substance and Ron Paul lost the nominations because of their immaturity and being ridiculed in the media because of people who called themselves Ron Paul voter but didn't knew a damn thing about liberalism. So sad that he left congress as well.


Don't you love how sock puppet accounts show up in certain threads?

----------


## awake

Most of the critical posts of Israels aggression and occupation in this thread will soon become a hate crime...So keep that in mind. One however, can call the Palestinians a savage sub human race of terrorist murders and get a medal.

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> If you haven't been to that part of the world "SHHH". Your argument reminds me of stupid Democrats who blame our economic woes on George Bush. Yes, he may of helped in the destruction, but the reality is that 100 years of Fed policy has killed our economy.
> 
> Like I said, you see Zionism, but I see religious zeal, the Crusades, the Muslim Conquests and everything in-between including the *BOOK OF GENESIS*.

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> Also important:
> 
> It happened near the border.
> 
> Immigration hawks take notice. _This is what you ostensibly support_.


Don't try to pin Israeli terrorism on me bro.

----------


## Zatch

> Can somebody please summarize the history between Israel and the Palestinians for me?  I don't have the time to research it in depth and cut through all the propaganda from both sides.
> 
> My intuition tells me that Israel is the aggressor and the worse of the two evils.  Antiwar.com seems to present this narrative as well.  So, what is really going on with the whole situation?

----------


## Brett85

> You are correct, unfortunately.  At the same time, I think part of being a good liberty supporter is educating yourself.  If a person was that closed minded to begin with they were probably never going to come onboard anyway.


I don't really understand what hatred of Israel has to do with "liberty."  I've never heard Ron Paul use a term like "Zionist."  He's opposed to entangling alliances, but I've never heard him use the kind of rhetoric towards Israel that people here use.

----------


## paulbot24

> I don't really understand what hatred of Israel has to do with "liberty."  I've never heard Ron Paul use a term like "Zionist."  He's opposed to entangling alliances, but I've never heard him use the kind of rhetoric towards Israel that people here use.


I believe the rhetoric you hear in these forums is aimed not necessarily on Israel but rather at the influence of AIPAC and its corrupt effects on foreign policies and debate within this country. I can't speak for others on here but that is what I sense from listening to Ron talk about "entangling alliances."

----------


## Brett85

> I believe the rhetoric you hear in these forums is aimed not necessarily on Israel but rather at the influence of AIPAC and its corrupt effects on foreign policies and debate within this country.


I'm opposed to AIPAC as well, because I don't believe that we should allow a lobbying group from a foreign country to dictate our country's foreign policy.  If I were a member of Congress, AIPAC would probably hate me.  But, I separate my opposition to entangling alliances from how I personally view Israel.  I don't have any problem at all with Israel on a personal level.  I'm simply opposed to giving out foreign aid to any country, because I view it as a form of income redistribution.  The people who are fans of Israel should donate their own money to them voluntarily.

----------


## paulbot24

> I separate my opposition to entangling alliances from how I personally view Israel.  I don't have any problem at all with Israel on a *personal* level.


I am not picking on you at all but I think this comment makes an interesting point. When topics like foreign aid and alliances come up, you always hear the ubiquitous "including Israel" clause. This usually turns into "even Israel"! Are these clauses really necessary when America is discussing foreign policy issues? Last time I checked, Israel is still a foreign nation. Yet if you lump them into the "all the rest of the world" category in political discussion here in America, you are somehow *personally* full of hate or an anti-Semite unless you say, "including Israel."

----------


## Aeroneous

> I don't really understand what hatred of Israel has to do with "liberty."  I've never heard Ron Paul use a term like "Zionist."  He's opposed to entangling alliances, but I've never heard him use the kind of rhetoric towards Israel that people here use.


I wasn't necessarily trying to tie the two together directly, although I can see how it probably looked that way by my previous post.

I was more referring to the idea that someone looking to expand their own personal knowledge needs to be open minded about ideas that are contradictory to what they've always "known."  My point was that if someone is so closed minded to hearing the opposing side of an Israel-Palestine argument, they probably weren't going to come around to many of the liberty related issues on this forum.

I suppose thinking that way probably isn't beneficial to our goals, but that's simply what I've been encountering latey.

----------


## furface

Zionism is a virtual disease that spreads among people with low resistance to hypocritical ideas.   I'm serious.  It spreads very much like diseases do affecting the weak more than healthy people.  It's worth studying it as such because it will tell us a lot about how destructive ideas can take hold of society and wreck havoc on them.

----------


## angelatc

> I guaranfukintee you that there would be a long ass thread if this was being done by the Brits.......actually longer than this thread as everyone here is used to the Israel/Palestine conflict


Not to mention the British Empire already collapsed.  We don't have to point out how they're a bunch of greedy, violent land.resource grabbers because the sun already set on the British empire.  Instead, we get to use their past as an example of how not to conduct foreign policy.

----------


## angelatc

> Hamas are launching rockets to KILL. Israel are launching rockets back to take out Hamas' ability to launch such rockets. Know the $#@!ing difference.
> 
> If Muslims give up their weapons, there will be peace. If Jews give up their weapons, there will be genocide.


This is simply a lie.  For starts, the Muslims have no weapons to give up.  And the targets that Israel is choosing are not military targets.   How can anybody look at the land that Israel has illegally occupied over the last 50 years, and decide they're the victims?

----------


## awake

The difference between the State of Israel and the people of Israel is critical. The State of Israel are a bunch of thugs, terrorists and murders. The people who are abused under this rule are probably pretty good people I'm sure.

The oppressors who operate the state are not the ruled...They are the rulers who are the cowards, knaves, murders, liars, thieves and the general immoral decay of humanity. When people are saying Israel this and Israel that they are meaning the rotten compost that resides over all of us that decides to murder and steal at will. The state is not the peace loving people who make up the slaves under these crooks.

Separation of cancer and healthy cell is critical.

The same goes for the Palestinians...Their state apparatus is no different. But the fault of the current war resides in the first expropriations of life and property. This can be clearly drawn back to the foundation of the state of Israel.

Saying that both sides are responsible is the same as saying thier is no agressor, which happens to work very well for the state of Isreal.

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> I don't really understand what hatred of Israel has to do with "liberty."  I've never heard Ron Paul use a term like "Zionist."  He's opposed to entangling alliances, but I've never heard him use the kind of rhetoric towards Israel that people here use.


Do not pretend you haven't seen these videos pasted in this thread. You will not be taken seriously until you watch them. Israelis are occupying terrorists. Gaza is a concentration camp. Pure and simple.

----------


## LibertyEagle

JFKIII, just how many threads are you going to post those videos in?   You do realize that just because something is in a video, doesn't make it factual, right?

----------


## klamath

> Not to mention the British Empire already collapsed.  We don't have to point out how they're a bunch of greedy, violent land.resource grabbers because the sun already set on the British empire.  Instead, we get to use their past as an example of how not to conduct foreign policy.


 Why is that tiny collasped empire able to control all of the resolutions to attack countries in the UN security council?

----------


## LibertyEagle

> I believe the rhetoric you hear in these forums is aimed not necessarily on Israel but rather at the influence of AIPAC and its corrupt effects on foreign policies and debate within this country. I can't speak for others on here but that is what I sense from listening to Ron talk about "entangling alliances."


I agree with what Ron says, but that is not largely what I see on these forums.  I see hatred of Israel and a glorification of the Palestinians.  Neither are perfect.  

I just want us to stop funding any and all of them and somehow stop our government representatives from being bought off by special interests, or be thrown in prison where they belong.

----------


## thequietkid10

> What is sad, is that RT and Al Jazeera are more fair and unbiased than our corporately controlled media.


Oh give me a ****ing break.

I'll give you a pass on Al Jazeera but RT is bias as anyone.  It's bias towards what you like criticisms of western and Israeli military actions, but they are noticeably quiet about Russia military intervention (hello Georgia and Chechnya).  Instead when talking about their own government about half of what I've seen for RT are stories about how awesome Putin is.

----------


## robert9712000

> Oh give me a ****ing break.
> 
> I'll give you a pass on Al Jazeera but RT is bias as anyone.  It's bias towards what you like criticisms of western and Israeli military actions, but they are noticeably quiet about Russia military intervention (hello Georgia and Chechnya).  Instead when talking about their own government about half of what I've seen for RT are stories about how awesome Putin is.


i agree,its like Rush Limbaugh,he will usually have a spot on analysis of what wrong with the democrats,but he will turn a blind eye on anything the republicans do.Its easy to be critical of what your against,but hard to be unbiased to your own constituents.

----------


## ClydeCoulter

> JFKIII, just how many threads are you going to post those videos in?   You do realize that just because something is in a video, doesn't make it factual, right?


That's correct, just like all the Ron Paul videos, you have to have good content.  Have you watched any of them to see if they have good content?

----------


## UWDude

> I just want us to stop funding any and all of them and somehow stop our government representatives from being bought off by special interests, or be thrown in prison where they belong.


Let me know when that happens.  In the meantime, Israel is a blight on the planet and prime pusher of Injustice in Palestine, with the red White and Blue paying for it all.




> I'll give you a pass on Al Jazeera....


Al Jazeera is a tool of Qatar, er go, a tool of the U.S., and when it comes time to start droppin' bombs, they line up behind NATO.  Libya proves it.

----------


## angelatc

> If the average person came on these forums and read all of these anti Israel comments they would be turned off immediately and wouldn't give the liberty movement a 2nd thought.  It's this kind of stuff that will hurt Rand if he decides to run for President in 2016.


Yeah, well, there's quite a few issues like that.  Which other issues should we hush up about to placate the GOP psychopaths?

----------


## Feeding the Abscess

> Yeah, well, there's quite a few issues like that.  Which other issues should we hush up about to placate the GOP psychopaths?


Military
War on drugs
Marriage
Department of Education
Social Security
Medicare

Who wants to continue?

----------


## RockEnds

> Military
> War on drugs
> Marriage
> Department of Education
> Social Security
> Medicare
> 
> Who wants to continue?


The IRS.  Remember that Anita woman who, in the summer of 2007, went around from state to state telling us never, ever, ever to speak of abolishing the IRS?  Ah, those were the daze....

----------


## Feeding the Abscess

> The IRS.  Remember that Anita woman who, in the summer of 2007, went around from state to state telling us never, ever, ever to speak of abolishing the IRS?  Ah, those were the daze....


Yes! How could I have forgotten? The GOP doesn't want to eliminate the income tax - _the basers want everyone to have to pay it_!

----------


## Brett85

> Yeah, well, there's quite a few issues like that.  Which other issues should we hush up about to placate the GOP psychopaths?


Like I said before, hating Israel is not part of a non interventionist foreign policy, nor is it part of liberty.

----------


## thequietkid10

> Yeah, well, there's quite a few issues like that.  Which other issues should we hush up about to placate the GOP psychopaths?


How about the issues we have no control over.  We can cut off funding to Israel but we can't tell Israel how to conduct it's military affairs, unless you want to violate the principal of non intervention.

----------


## Dystopian

Seems like every other thread there is someone telling others what they should and should not post.  The next election is 4 years away, and I couldn't give a $#@! less what an easily offended GOP Joe Blow thinks about my forum posts.

----------


## amy31416

> Like I said before, hating Israel is not part of a non interventionist foreign policy, nor is it part of liberty.


I've openly taken the side of Palestine due to my own morality--I'm pretty sure Angela has NEVER stated that she hated Israel (nor have I, for that matter.) And you do not determine what is and what is not part of liberty. Thankfully, since Palestinians have been in bondage since 1948.

If you want to stop sounding like a fool, you need to drop this politically correct bull$#@!--it's dishonest and immoral.

----------


## furface

> Like I said before, hating Israel is not part of a non interventionist foreign policy, nor is it part of liberty.


Nor is telling people how they should feel about any particular subject.  

I believe a more reasonable conversation would be to discuss whether it's reasonable to dislike Israel in the same way that people might dislike ethnic supremacist driven, authoritarian governments that use violence to antagonize their neighbors & draw the US into violent conflicts.

I don't believe anybody here is suggesting that the US should actively take the Palestinian side on this conflict.  

Suggesting that people should withhold their feelings and thoughts about Israel and its history is (yawn) yet another attempt to obscure the free exchange of ideas.

----------


## UWDude

> How about the issues we have no control over.  We can cut off funding to Israel...


Yeah, and when that happens, I'll stop bitching.  Unless of course, Israel nukes someone.  Then I think I'll be downright pissed at them.

----------


## RockEnds

Apparently the British Chief Rabbi thinks this may go past the Palestinian problem...when he doesn't think he's on the air, that is.

----------


## amy31416

I took the side of the Jews during WWII--because imprisoning, stealing, murdering and using people is wrong. Just as I took the side of the slaves and the Native Americans.

So when a few select people take umbrage at me using "strong language" in this and other threads--I ask you, have you put yourself in the shoes of the Palestinian people? Have you researched the actual facts regarding Israel's creation? Have you considered what you would do if your own child was a casualty of this "conflict" that should not be a conflict? 

I do not care one whit for any religious belief when it attempts to make these things okay, because in my view--that is the antithesis of Christianity. It is the antithesis of morality--I do not care if you think it will bring back Jesus, because in my view, if Jesus is who you think he is, he will smite you for supporting such things. Prince of Peace, right?

If you think this makes me an anti-semite, you are as dumb as a bag of hammers--or you are spouting Hasbara.

I know this--if someone were to kill my child or a member of my family due to this sort of bull$#@!, it would be my life's work to make sure that those responsible paid the price. I am not Jesus, and I do not forgive such an incredible transgression. 

The Ten Commandments apply or they don't, right?

If the Israelis can steal, murder, abort babies, covet and do it with the protection of American "Christians"--then why would I ever consider them legitimate? I don't care about ridiculous stuff like keeping Sharia law out of the US--and all this warfare does is bring (ironically) more Muslims to the US, so idiots like Peter King can scream like a $#@! about them, without ever seeing the underlying reasons that they're here in the first place.

Doing and supporting immoral actions has repercussions, it's a lot like karma. Think your choices through.

----------


## puppetmaster

> I took the side of the Jews during WWII--because imprisoning, stealing, murdering and using people is wrong. Just as I took the side of the slaves and the Native Americans.
> 
> So when a few select people take umbrage at me using "strong language" in this and other threads--I ask you, have you put yourself in the shoes of the Palestinian people? Have you researched the actual facts regarding Israel's creation? Have you considered what you would do if your own child was a casualty of this "conflict" that should not be a conflict? 
> 
> I do not care one whit for any religious belief when it attempts to make these things okay, because in my view--that is the antithesis of Christianity. It is the antithesis of morality--I do not care if you think it will bring back Jesus, because in my view, if Jesus is who you think he is, he will smite you for supporting such things. Prince of Peace, right?
> 
> If you think this makes me an anti-semite, you are as dumb as a bag of hammers--or you are spouting Hasbara.
> 
> I know this--if someone were to kill my child or a member of my family due to this sort of bull$#@!, it would be my life's work to make sure that those responsible paid the price. I am not Jesus, and I do not forgive such an incredible transgression. 
> ...


stop with that crazy talk...they are beyond reproach!!

----------


## Okie RP fan

I am personally not going to take a "side" as if it were a spectator sport. These groups of people have been going at it for decades over many issues. I think it has the potential to start another major Middle East conflict, if not world war. And I either want it to happen quickly, or not at all. And by taking sides, I feel it just adds to the hatred spewing about. 

People need to understand that it's the government of Israel, not the people of Israel themselves, fighting. I'm sure the people of Israel want peace much like the untainted (those not warped by Hamas) Palestinians do, perhaps just by different measures, if anything. Of course, this doesn't speak for all, but, I know there are pockets of people within the population that wish as much.

----------


## puppetmaster

interesting points in this vid.....election time, statehood?

----------


## Tpoints

Israel is really testing if "non-interventionists" mean what they say.

----------


## Pauls' Revere

> I took the side of the Jews during WWII--because imprisoning, stealing, murdering and using people is wrong. Just as I took the side of the slaves and the Native Americans.
> 
> So when a few select people take umbrage at me using "strong language" in this and other threads--I ask you, have you put yourself in the shoes of the Palestinian people? Have you researched the actual facts regarding Israel's creation? Have you considered what you would do if your own child was a casualty of this "conflict" that should not be a conflict? 
> 
> I do not care one whit for any religious belief when it attempts to make these things okay, because in my view--that is the antithesis of Christianity. It is the antithesis of morality--I do not care if you think it will bring back Jesus, because in my view, if Jesus is who you think he is, he will smite you for supporting such things. Prince of Peace, right?
> 
> If you think this makes me an anti-semite, you are as dumb as a bag of hammers--or you are spouting Hasbara.
> 
> I know this--if someone were to kill my child or a member of my family due to this sort of bull$#@!, it would be my life's work to make sure that those responsible paid the price. I am not Jesus, and I do not forgive such an incredible transgression. 
> ...


We can thank the British for thier clarity when the ottoman Empire was carved up after WW1.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British..._for_Palestine

_In 1916, Britain and France concluded the Sykes–Picot Agreement, which proposed to divide the Middle East between them into spheres of influence, with "Palestine" as an international enclave. (Pappé 1994, p. 3)

The British made two potentially conflicting promises regarding the territory it was expecting to acquire.[citation needed] In the McMahon-Hussein Correspondence of 1915 Britain had promised Hussein bin Ali, Sharif of Mecca, through T. E. Lawrence, independence for an Arab country covering most of the Arab Middle East in exchange for his support, while also promising to create and foster a Jewish national home in Palestine in the Balfour Declaration of 1917, in return for Jewish support.

The Sykes-Picot Agreement did not call for Arab sovereignty, but for the "suzerainty of an Arab chief" and "an international administration, the form of which is to be decided upon after consultation with Russia, and subsequently in consultation with the other allies, and the representatives of the Sherif of Mecca."[12] Under the terms of that agreement, the Zionist Organization needed to secure an agreement along the lines of the Faisal-Weizmann Agreement with the Sherif of Mecca.

At the Peace Conference in 1919, Emir Faisal, speaking on behalf of King Hussein, asked for Arab independence, or at minimum the right to pick the mandatory.[13] In the end, he recommended an Arab state under a British mandate.[14] The World Zionist Organization also asked for a British mandate, and asserted the 'historic title of the Jewish people to Palestine'.[15]

A confidential appendix to the report of the 1919 King-Crane Commission observed that "The Jews are distinctly for Britain as mandatory power, because of the Balfour declaration' and that the French 'resent the payment by the English to the Emir Faisal of a large monthly subsidy, which they claim covers a multitude of bribes, and enables the British to stand off and show clean hands while Arab agents do dirty work in their interest."[16] The Faisal-Weizmann Agreement called for British mediation of any disputes. It also called for the establishment of borders, after the Versailles peace conference, by a commission to be formed for the purpose. The World Zionist Organization later submitted to the peace conference a proposed map of the territory that did not include the area east of the Hedjaz Railway, including most of Transjordan. In the Sanremo Conference (24 April 1920) the Mandate for Palestine was allocated to Great Britain. France required the continuation of its religious protectorate in Palestine but Italy and Great Britain opposed it. France lost the religious protectorate but thanks to the Holy See continued to enjoy liturgical honors in Mandatory Palestine until 1924 when the honours were abolished (see: Protectorate of the Holy See).[17]

During and after World War I, Britain made conflicting and shifting commitments regarding the future division and governance of the region, including those announced in the Balfour Declaration of 1917, the Sykes-Picot Agreement, the McMahon–Hussein Correspondence, and the Churchill White Paper of 1922. At the San Remo conference, the boundaries of the mandated territories were not precisely defined.[18][19]_

The Palastinians were promised territories for thier efforts in helping the British defeat the Ottomans who were alligned with Germany and Austria-Hungary during WW1. The story of lawrence of Arabia is based on this. They also made promises to Jews in The Balfour Declaration. So, basically Britian screwed the pooch on this one and we are still paying for a mistake made 100 years ago.

----------


## furface

> Israel is really testing if "non-interventionists" mean what they say.


Excellent point. I've stopped being surprised by the strange arguments that people use for rationalizing Israel, but it's still confusing to hear people say they support non-intervention on one hand and then demand that the US steal billions and give it to Israel on the other.

----------


## Brett85

> but it's still confusing to hear people say they support non-intervention on one hand and then demand that the US steal billions and give it to Israel on the other.


Nobody on these forums has said anything like that.

----------


## Brett85

> I took the side of the Jews during WWII--because imprisoning, stealing, murdering and using people is wrong. Just as I took the side of the slaves and the Native Americans.
> 
> So when a few select people take umbrage at me using "strong language" in this and other threads--I ask you, have you put yourself in the shoes of the Palestinian people? Have you researched the actual facts regarding Israel's creation? Have you considered what you would do if your own child was a casualty of this "conflict" that should not be a conflict? 
> 
> I do not care one whit for any religious belief when it attempts to make these things okay, because in my view--that is the antithesis of Christianity. It is the antithesis of morality--I do not care if you think it will bring back Jesus, because in my view, if Jesus is who you think he is, he will smite you for supporting such things. Prince of Peace, right?
> 
> If you think this makes me an anti-semite, you are as dumb as a bag of hammers--or you are spouting Hasbara.
> 
> I know this--if someone were to kill my child or a member of my family due to this sort of bull$#@!, it would be my life's work to make sure that those responsible paid the price. I am not Jesus, and I do not forgive such an incredible transgression. 
> ...


We obviously have a different view of this conflict, but I would say that my main objection is the type of rhetoric people use regarding Israel, not that they criticize them.  I don't believe you said anything that I would consider extremely offensive.  On the other hand, you see comments like this:




> Israel has killed 20 - 30 Palestinians per Israeli killed. 
> Israel has imprisoned 1000's of Palestinians per Israeli captured.
> Israel has stolen land.  Period.  Israel refuses to stop building settlements.
> Israel refuses statehood so it can continue to assassinate elected leaders on a whim.
> *Death to Israel.*

----------


## AuH20

> I agree with what Ron says, but that is not largely what I see on these forums. * I see hatred of Israel and a glorification of the Palestinians.*  Neither are perfect.  
> 
> I just want us to stop funding any and all of them and somehow stop our government representatives from being bought off by special interests, or be thrown in prison where they belong.


Bingo. The Palestinians are ruthless murderers as are elements of the Mossad and the IDF. The fact that we are seeing so many people take one side is beyond comical. It's like choosing between Charles Manson and Jeffrey Dahmer.

----------


## AuH20

If Hamas deploys their chemical warhead arsenal into heavily populated civilian areas, I have no problem with the IDF flattening Gaza. That is the price for escalation. Hopefully, neither side abandons the conventional route. I wonder if Hamas are that shortsighted to do something so incredibly dumb.

----------


## klamath

> *I took the side of the Jews during WWII*--because imprisoning, stealing, murdering and using people is wrong. Just as I took the side of the slaves and the Native Americans.
> 
> So when a few select people take umbrage at me using "strong language" in this and other threads--I ask you, have you put yourself in the shoes of the Palestinian people? Have you researched the actual facts regarding Israel's creation? Have you considered what you would do if your own child was a casualty of this "conflict" that should not be a conflict? 
> 
> I do not care one whit for any religious belief when it attempts to make these things okay, because in my view--that is the antithesis of Christianity. It is the antithesis of morality--I do not care if you think it will bring back Jesus, because in my view, if Jesus is who you think he is, he will smite you for supporting such things. Prince of Peace, right?
> 
> If you think this makes me an anti-semite, you are as dumb as a bag of hammers--or you are spouting Hasbara.
> 
> I know this--if someone were to kill my child or a member of my family due to this sort of bull$#@!, it would be my life's work to make sure that those responsible paid the price. I am not Jesus, and I do not forgive such an incredible transgression. 
> ...


Dang, Amy you most be the oldest new mother on record.

----------


## libertyjam

Outrage in Gaza Redux
Posted: November 16, 2012 | Author: Rabbi Brant Rosen

Israel’s military assault on Gaza in 2008-09 represented an important turning point in my own relationship with Israel. I recall experiencing a new and previously unfamiliar feeling of anguish as Israel bombarded the people living in that tiny, besieged strip of land over and over, day after day after day. While I certainly felt a sense of tribal loyalty to the Israelis who withstood Qassam rocket fire from Gaza, I felt a newfound sense of concern and solidarity with Gazans who I believed were experiencing nothing short of oppression during this massive military onslaught.

And now it’s happening again. Only this time I don’t think the term “anguish” quite fits my mindset. Now it’s something much closer to rage.

It’s happening again. Once again 1.7 million people, mostly refugees, who have been living in what amounts to the world’s largest open air prison, are being subjected to a massive military assault at the hands of the world’s most militarized nation, using mostly US-made weapons. And our President is not only looking on – he is defending Israel’s onslaught by saying it has a right to “self-defense in light of the barrage of rocket attacks being launched from Gaza against Israeli civilians.”

Let’s be clear: this tragedy didn’t start with the Qassams.  It didn’t start with the election of Hamas. And it didn’t start with the “instability” that followed Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza.

No, this is just the latest chapter of a much longer saga that began in 1947-48, when scores of Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from their cities and villages in the coastal plain and lower Galilee and warehoused in a tiny strip of land on the edge of the Mediterranean. By all accounts, most were simply too overwhelmed to realize what was happening. Some tried to return to their homes and were killed on sight. Others resisted by staging raids in the newly declared state of Israel. Sometimes they succeeded, more often they did not. Either way, Israel decided early on that it would respond to each of these reprisals with a overwhelming military show of force.  And those reprisals and that show of force have essentially been ongoing until this very day.

I realize, of course, there is plenty of political subtext to this latest go-around.  I’ve read the timelines and have formed my own opinions on the latest “who started it?” debate. I’ve also read plenty of analyses by Israeli observers who believe that this was not a response to Qassam fire at all but was very much a “war of choice” waged by an Israeli administration looking to shore up political support in an election season.

I’ve also read a widely circulated article from Ha’aretz about Israel’s recent execution of Ahmed Jabari (the head of Hamas’ military wing). I learned that up until now, Jabari was “Israel’s subcontractor” for security in the Gaza Strip, that Israel has been literally funding Hamas through intermediaries in exchange for peace and quiet on their southern border, and that when Jabari failed to deliver of late, the decision came down to take him out. Another article, written by the Israeli who negotiated with Jabari for the release of Gilad Shalit, revealed that negotiations were still ongoing between Jabari and Israeli officials when Israel assassinated him with a drone strike.

Yes, the wonky side of me has been avidly reading all these analyses. And while I do believe they provide an important counterbalance to the mythic statements by Israel’s Foreign Ministry and the US State Department, the more I read the cynical political subtext for this war, the sicker I get. No, this isn’t about Qassams, but don’t be fooled into thinking it’s about elections either. It’s really just the most recent chapter in a much longer litany of injustice – the latest attempt by Israel bring the Palestinians to their knees through the sheer force of their formidable military might.

Of all the analyses I’ve yet read, one of the very few that truly seemed to grasp this truth came from Yousef Munayyer, of The Jerusalem Fund/Palestine Center:

    The problem Gaza presents for Israel is that it won’t go away—though Israel would love it if it would. It is a constant reminder of the depopulation of Palestine in 1948, the folly of the 1967 occupation, and the many massacres which have happened since them. It also places the Israelis in an uncomfortable position because it presents a problem (in the form of projectiles) which cannot be solved by force…

    Israel has tried assassinating Palestinian leaders for decades but the resistance persists. Israel launched a devastating and brutal war on Gaza from 2008 to 2009 killing 1,400 people, mostly civilians, but the resistance persists.

    Why, then, would Israel choose to revert to a failed strategy that will undoubtedly only escalate the situation? Because it is far easier for politicians to lie to voters, vilify their adversaries, and tell them ‘we will hit them hard’ than to come clean and say instead, ‘we’ve failed and there is no military solution to this problem.’

Like last time, I know many in the Jewish community will say it is unseemly of me to criticize Israel this way while Israelis live in fear of Qassam fire out of Gaza. I know there are those who believe that by writing these words, I’m turning my back on my own people in their time of need. But I know in my heart that my outrage at Israel’s actions goes hand in hand with compassion for Israelis – particularly those who know that their leaders’ devotion to the sword is leading them into the abyss.

Additionally, as I wrote under tragically similar circumstances in 2009:

    I believe Israel’s response to Hamas’ missile attacks have been disproportionate and outrageous. I believe their actions only further endanger the security of  Israelis while inflicting collective punishment and a severe humanitarian crisis upon Gazans. Indeed, just as I cannot understand what it must be like to be a citizen of Sderot, I cannot even begin to imagine what it must be like to be a Gazan citizen at the moment, living under constant air attack, with no running water or electricity and dwindling food, as hospitals fill up with wounded and corpses lie rotting in the streets because relief workers are unable to reach them.

When will we be ready to accept that this is not a “balanced” conflict or even a “war” by any reasonable definition – and that it never was?  When will we face the painful truth that this is not a story about one side versus the other but about one side oppressing the other?  Frankly, all the well-meaning liberal comments about “praying for peace on both sides” and leave me cold. Worse, I find them insidious because they simply serve to support the myth that this is a conflict between two equal parties. It is not. And peace will not come until we admit this – until we admit that there is an essential injustice at the heart of this tragedy and that try as it might, Israel will never be able to make it go away through the sheer force of its increasingly massive military might.

Beyond the rage, I’m heartened that this time around there is a growing community of conscience that is speaking out publicly and in no uncertain terms to protest Israel’s latest outrage in Gaza. I am so deeply grateful for my friends and colleagues at Jewish Voice for Peace, who is alone in the Jewish world in condemning this latest assault.  I urge you to read JVP’s courageous statement, which I know gives voice to increasing numbers of Jews and non-Jews, young and old, religious and secular, who are coming together through the courage of their conscience.

At this point in my posts I would typically write “click here” to lend your voice to some kind of collective statement.  I’m going resist that temptation and urge you instead to take to the streets.

I’ll see you there.

----------


## furface

> The Palestinians are ruthless murderers as are elements of the Mossad and the IDF.


Nice, bigoted logic. Actually somewhat of the reverse is true.  The majority of "Israel," is complicit with ethnic cleansing & violent actions against Palestinians. I try to stay away from characterizing this as a religious issue, but unfortunately you can also say that the majority of Jews & all Zionist Christians hold similar views.  There are certainly terrorist elements within Palestine, but "Israel" by definition is an apartheid, terrorist state.





> Nobody on these forums has said anything like that.


  You have a very short memory.  I can recall dozens of threads where posters (trolls?) have said that Israel needs to be exempted from non-interventionism because Israel is "special."  Some of the older posters here can verify that, and if it's important I can do the searches.  The fact that it's less common these days suggests progress.  Thank you for pointing it out.

Note - I tried to do a search on "Israel aid" here and the gave me an error. Possibly there is so much data that searching on such common terms is unpractical.

----------


## A. Havnes

> In case you're interested, this guy is broadcasting a live audio feed from Gaza. I've had it on for the last hour or so and it is spooky. The sound of Israeli drones flying overhead never stops and you hear the occasional blast.
> 
> http://www.ustream.tv/channel/operation-pillar-of-cloud


Looks like the electricity is out in West Gaza...

----------


## squarepusher

The Hamas Charter calls for the destrution of Israel

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm

----------


## furface

> The Hamas Charter calls for the destrution of Israel
> 
> http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm


So what? Wouldn't you want to destroy the political entity that terrorized you and your family out of your home?

I personally support the destruction of Israel through non-violent means.  

During negotiations Hamas has agreed to renounce violence, but has not agreed to recognize Israel as a legitimate state.  Israel & Western states demand that Hamas does and would rather propagate more violence on this trivial point.

Even Shimon Peres admits that Israel stands on shaky historical ground.  In a debate in Doha he mentioned something to the extent that you can't change history, basically admitting that Israel's history is problematic.

You got to be completely whacked to think that Israel's history is legitimate, even when comparing it to the US's shaky history with Native Americans.  In that sense it's a matter of fighting for the very fundamentals of rationality to single Israel out as one of the most problematic entities in recent world history.

Anti-Zionism is a fight for logic & reason.  It's a fight for using reason & rationality to settle things as opposed to political propaganda & shear violent force.  It's an extremely important fight in that sense.

Here's the Doha statement I was talking about. 

http://www.thedohadebates.com/debate...ode=transcript




> AUDIENCE Q (F)
> Hello, good evening. You have neither forgiven nor forgotten those who commit crimes against your people. How do you expect the Palestinians to forgive and forget the crimes you've committed and continue to commit against them?
> SHIMON PERES
> I am not making any account with the past. My eyes are set for the future. I think what happened, happened, and I think we don't have to return all the time to history for the simple reason that we cannot correct history. We can correct the future. So to forgive and forget is a good advice for everybody, if you can really provide for your children and our children a better future, and that is our preference.


Everybody just "forgive and forget."  It's normally advice given by crooks to their victims.  Israel certainly doesn't take that advice when hunting down former Nazis. Forgiveness is impossible when the aggressors are continuing their aggression and rejoicing about it.

----------


## squarepusher

> So what? Wouldn't you want to destroy the political entity that terrorized you and your family out of your home?
> 
> I personally support the destruction of Israel through non-violent means.  
> 
> During negotiations Hamas has agreed to renounce violence, but has not agreed to recognize Israel as a legitimate state.  Israel & Western states demand that Hamas does and would rather propagate more violence on this trivial point.
> 
> Even Shimon Peres admits that Israel stands on shaky historical ground.  In a debate in Doha he mentioned something to the extent that you can't change history, basically admitting that Israel's history is problematic.
> 
> You got to be completely whacked to think that Israel's history is legitimate, even when comparing it to the US's shaky history with Native Americans.  In that sense it's a matter of fighting for the very fundamentals of rationality to single Israel out as one of the most problematic entities in recent world history.
> ...


Hamas fires rockets from densely populated civilian centers, using civilians as 'human shields' so any retaliation will have civilian casualties.  Are they not allowed to be faulted for being responsible for the death of their own peoples?  Hamas charter says they want to destroy Israel, should Israel not be able to defend itself?

History being as it is, besides the point, Israel built up the area from nothing but a sand dune to a thriving 1st world civilization today.  People say Israel stole the Palestinian land but it was nothing before besides dunes and scarce inhabitants.  Maybe the 'Palestinians' were there before Israel, but Israel was there thousands of years ago before them.  Arguing the 'whos first' point is going to be fruitless as the borders and boundaries change throughout time.  That being said Israel has really developed the area into a modern thriving entity, "Palestine" has no industry and is a 3rd world nation with no resources.  Why do you support them?  If they stopped attacking Israel I bet they would no longer be attacked in retaliation.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> I think RP forums does  great harm in reinforcing racist stereotypes people have of RP's ideas by always wading full on into debating who is right and whole is wrong in a conflicts in the world, we should just wipe our hands of.


As opposed to wading full on into debating abortion, building demolition, dead dogs, cross-dressing men in the girl's locker room, circumcision, binders full of women, the Federal Reserve, the Red Cross, the Federal Budget, Al Gore and the manbearpig, drugs, climate change, wars, UFOs, religion, human migration, organic milk, oil spills, silver and gold, Murray Rothbard's favorite bourbon, OWS, who is the purest politician, and the history of the world?

No topic is left undissected and repeatedly examined around here.

----------


## Ronulus

> Hamas fires rockets from densely populated civilian centers, using civilians as 'human shields' so any retaliation will have civilian casualties.  Are they not allowed to be faulted for being responsible for the death of their own peoples?  Hamas charter says they want to destroy Israel, should Israel not be able to defend itself?
> 
> History being as it is, besides the point, Israel built up the area from nothing but a sand dune to a thriving 1st world civilization today.  People say Israel stole the Palestinian land but it was nothing before besides dunes and scarce inhabitants.  Maybe the 'Palestinians' were there before Israel, but Israel was there thousands of years ago before them.  Arguing the 'whos first' point is going to be fruitless as the borders and boundaries change throughout time. * That being said Israel has really developed the area into a modern thriving entity, "Palestine" has no industry and is a 3rd world nation with no resources.  Why do you support them?*  If they stopped attacking Israel I bet they would no longer be attacked in retaliation.


What merit does that have to it? There are many places in the world that do not provide industry or anything in trade with world economics. It does not mean it's acceptable to take their land away from them in order to develop it. 

You are also forgetting to mention that Israel attacked first, killing a civilian during the attack on the hamas leader, and posted a video of it on youtube. I don't really get the whole "They are using their civilians as human sheilds" argument. If they are doing it to make them look bad to the rest of the world, it is backfiring as the media around the world is playing the whole "hamas are cowards, it's their fault these people are dying". I think they are retaliating but I don't know that firing back with bombs and missles is the best way to take them out.

----------


## P3ter_Griffin

> History being as it is, besides the point, Israel built up the area from nothing but a sand dune to a thriving 1st world civilization today.  People say Israel stole the Palestinian land but it was nothing before besides dunes and scarce inhabitants.  Maybe the 'Palestinians' were there before Israel, but Israel was there thousands of years ago before them.  Arguing the 'whos first' point is going to be fruitless as the borders and boundaries change throughout time.  That being said Israel has really developed the area into a modern thriving entity, "Palestine" has no industry and is a 3rd world nation with no resources.  Why do you support them?  If they stopped attacking Israel I bet they would no longer be attacked in retaliation.


Is this an argument for eminent domain?  And, "Palestine"?  Is that your way of saying those savages don't deserve statehood, rather they should be subjected rule by a foreign entity?  Me thinks we have Bibi visiting us on the forums today.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> Is this an argument for eminent domain?


That's a far too relevant question for this thread... 

(It's better than standard eminent domain, as it doesn't require fair payment.)

----------


## dannno

> Hamas fires rockets from densely populated civilian centers, using civilians as 'human shields' so any retaliation will have civilian casualties.  Are they not allowed to be faulted for being responsible for the death of their own peoples?  Hamas charter says they want to destroy Israel, should Israel not be able to defend itself?
> 
> History being as it is, besides the point, Israel built up the area from nothing but a sand dune to a thriving 1st world civilization today.  People say Israel stole the Palestinian land but it was nothing before besides dunes and scarce inhabitants.  Maybe the 'Palestinians' were there before Israel, but Israel was there thousands of years ago before them.  Arguing the 'whos first' point is going to be fruitless as the borders and boundaries change throughout time.  That being said Israel has really developed the area into a modern thriving entity, "Palestine" has no industry and is a 3rd world nation with no resources.  Why do you support them?  If they stopped attacking Israel I bet they would no longer be attacked in retaliation.


From Page 4 of this thread.

http://antiwar.com/blog/2012/11/11/i...ho-started-it/

----------


## Feeding the Abscess

> *Hamas fires rockets from densely populated civilian centers, using civilians as 'human shields' so any retaliation will have civilian casualties*.  Are they not allowed to be faulted for being responsible for the death of their own peoples?  Hamas charter says they want to destroy Israel, should Israel not be able to defend itself?
> 
> History being as it is, besides the point, Israel built up the area from nothing but a sand dune to a thriving 1st world civilization today.  People say Israel stole the Palestinian land but it was nothing before besides dunes and scarce inhabitants.  Maybe the 'Palestinians' were there before Israel, but Israel was there thousands of years ago before them.  Arguing the 'whos first' point is going to be fruitless as the borders and boundaries change throughout time.  That being said Israel has really developed the area into a modern thriving entity, "Palestine" has no industry and is a 3rd world nation with no resources.  Why do you support them?  If they stopped attacking Israel I bet they would no longer be attacked in retaliation.


That's how they have to fight, due to the vast, vast differences in the armaments of both peoples. The Palestinians don't even have an official military. How else do you expect them to fight?

----------


## mac_hine

‘Flatten all of Gaza’
John Glaser, November 19, 2012 
http://antiwar.com/blog/2012/11/19/flatten-all-of-gaza/

For those that haven’t seen it, a piece in Jerusalem Post by Gilad Sharon (Ariel Sharon’s son) grabbed some attention over the weekend. In it, he essentially argues for annihilating Gaza and its inhabitants.

First, he denounces the worry about civilian casualties, arguing that by virtue of being Palestinian, Gaza residents are guilty and are worthy targets.




> The desire to prevent harm to innocent civilians in Gaza will ultimately lead to harming the truly innocent: the residents of southern Israel. The residents of Gaza are not innocent, they elected Hamas. The Gazans aren’t hostages; they chose this freely, and must live with the consequences.


And then mass murder:




> We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too.


    There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing. Then they’d really call for a ceasefire.

This can be compared to the comment by Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai on Saturday: “The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages. Only then will Israel be calm for forty years.”

----------


## RockEnds

Well, it's from The Blaze.  Take it for what it's worth.



Iranian Arms Ship Bound for Gaza Reportedly Carrying Long-Range Rockets Able to Reach Tel Aviv, Jerusalem

http  ://www.theblaze.com/stories/iranian-arms-ship-bound-for-gaza-found-carrying-long-rage-rockets-able-to-reach-tel-aviv-jerusalem/

----------


## puppetmaster

> Hamas fires rockets from densely populated civilian centers, using civilians as 'human shields' so any retaliation will have civilian casualties.  Are they not allowed to be faulted for being responsible for the death of their own peoples?  Hamas charter says they want to destroy Israel, should Israel not be able to defend itself?
> 
> History being as it is, besides the point, Israel built up the area from nothing but a sand dune to a thriving 1st world civilization today.  People say Israel stole the Palestinian land but it was *nothing before besides dunes* and scarce inhabitants.  Maybe the 'Palestinians' were there before Israel, but Israel was there thousands of years ago before them.  Arguing the 'whos first' point is going to be fruitless as the borders and boundaries change throughout time.  That being said Israel has really developed the area into a modern thriving entity, "Palestine" has no industry and is a 3rd world nation with no resources.  Why do you support them?  If they stopped attacking Israel I bet they would no longer be attacked in retaliation.


You are sadly mistaken. fertile farm land was there already

----------


## JK/SEA

i don't believe the human shield story. May as well say Israel does the same thing.

----------


## presence

> “We obviously knew there were journalists in the building” army spokesperson Avital Leibovich told the press  today


http://12160.info/page/israeli-spoke...horten_twitter

In reference to the Journalist tower destroyed yesterday.





> © Majdi Fathi / APA images)
> A Palestinian journalist inspects his car after an Israeli air strike targeted a media building in Gaza City, 18 November.
> 
> 
> "The  Israeli army bombed Al-Shoroq Tower (or the "Journalists' Tower") in  Gaza City. The 15-story building housed both local Arab and  international media agencies such as Al Arabiya, Al Quds TV, Sky News,  France 24, and Russia TV. Local media sources reported that eight  journalists were injured in the initial attack. According to  [Palestinian human rights group] Al-Mezan field reports, building  occupants later received warnings about the Israeli army's intent to  demolish the entire building, and were told to evacuate." 
> http://www.sott.net/article/253804-I...alists-in-Gaza

----------


## RockEnds

> i don't believe the human shield story. May as well say Israel does the same thing.


It's been alleged that this is how targets are being chosen:

http://digitaljournal.com/article/337106

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> It's been alleged that this is how targets are being chosen:
> 
> http://digitaljournal.com/article/337106


From that link:




> Three weeks ago, King Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani became the first foreign dignitary to visit the besieged Gaza Strip in five years following the Hamas government take over, and the embargo that has followed. However according to Fars News Agency, the Emir did not come empty handed. The Hamas members he met with received ball point pens and watches, however it may have been best if the Hamas officials had looked the gift horse in the mouth. According to Fars News Agency the pens and watches were implanted with tracking devices which beamed the locations of the commanders to Israeli satellites.
> 
> On November 14th the alleged ruse paid off, the Israeli Air Force was able to assassinate Hamas military commander Ahmad Al Jabari and his bodyguard. This assassination was followed by the killing of Ahmad Abu Jalal, a field commander of the Ezzedeen Al Qassam Brigades, on Friday.
> 
> Qatar admitted last month to sending hundreds of troops to Libya to aid western backed rebels in overthrowing Muammar Ghaddafi. The Qatari government has also provided training and logistics to rebels fighting the regime of Syrian President Bashar Assad, many Hamas leaders are in exile in Damascus.
> 
> Read more: http://digitaljournal.com/article/337106

----------


## puppetmaster

Gotta blow up the media...no witness no crime

----------


## awake

My hunches are confirmed in the following article: here

US foreign aid is guaranteed under a constant war footing, peace is not in the interest of Israel's politics of foreign aid. Case in point: Iron Dome was a gift from Obama. Had there been a peace agreement in place this would not have happened. If by chance a peace agreement ever came to be, US foreign aid would come to be seriously questioned. The more war and conflict there is, the more aid money and its long term securitzation.

If the US even hints at not paying Isreal its money, you know who gets it.

----------


## HOLLYWOOD

Here's what that $#@!wad $#@! Gary Bauer has tweeted:




> *Tweets* 
> 
>  *Gary L Bauer*             ‏@*GaryLBauer*  
> 
>                                                         Missiles in #*Gaza* are being supplied by Iran & Al Qaeda is operating there. Gaza is proof why Israeli land concessions won't bring peace.                    
> 
>  *                                                                   Collapse                                       *


The latest GAZA casualties: WARNING, Very Graphic

http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?ne...ure%3Dyoutu.be

----------


## Tpoints

> Excellent point. I've stopped being surprised by the strange arguments that people use for rationalizing Israel, but it's still confusing to hear people say they support non-intervention on one hand and then demand that the US steal billions and give it to Israel on the other.


not exactly what I meant. 

I suspect most Ron Paul supporters are either pro-Palestinian, anti-Zionist, or at the very least, equal opportunity non-interventionist, isolationist. But I suspect lurking between them are some that are happy to intervene for Palestine.

----------


## amy31416

> not exactly what I meant. 
> 
> I suspect most Ron Paul supporters are either pro-Palestinian, anti-Zionist, or at the very least, equal opportunity non-interventionist, isolationist. But I suspect lurking between them are some that are happy to intervene for Palestine.


You make it sound sinister, but it's no different from what many people did during WWII--save, hide and support Jews. Why wouldn't I do the same for Palestinians/Muslims?

----------


## osan

> Where are the Israeli people when this $#@! happens....why do they not stand up to their terrorist rogue government? Or are they condoning this behavior?
> Such a small country and they still can't control the goons who run it.
> I am so tired of no accountability in government. (especially ours)


OK, let us take a closer look at what it is you are implying here, however tacitly.

For starters, we have to dispense with all normative arguments at this point because they are irrelevant in the context of this circumstance where the Arab/Muslim world stands to bring the rest of the world to nuclear war.  Make no mistake in failing to take this seriously because if an existential threat arises against Israel, they will have NOTHING to lose by loosing their weapons.  When that happens, we can all kiss lives even remotely worth living a fond adios.

And before you label me as some "jew-loving kisser of Israel's ass", I assure you I am anything but that.  At this very moment, pragmatism is actually our friend, painful as that may be to accept.  I daresay that not a single one of us understands with any minimal sufficiency the forces working here at the deepest effective levels of material power.  I suspect that they are the same powers that lead to Israel's establishment in the first place.  Are those powers orchestrating all of this, or did the situation get away from them?  Are they the puppeteers pulling various strings to get the players to do as they would have them, or are they now crapping huge loads in their pants as their creations turn against them?  I cannot say and I suspect neither can anyone else here.  Therefore, we can only deal with what we have before us.  If perchance the ring-masters are still in sufficiently full control, then we have no reason to fret because if their power is indeed that complete, then I suspect there is nothing any of is can do except sit back and wait to see how this situation resolves itself.

Forget whether the Israelis "belong" there, whether they are good or evil people... none of this matters.  The Israelis are FACT and I doubt they will go away without the craziest fight-per-pound anyone has ever witnessed - and yes, I mean nukes.  I do question why they have tolerated Palestinian presence in "their" territory at all.  Is it because they are tolerant people attempting to be fair?  Is it due to international pressure to be tolerant?  Or is there a deeper strategy at work?  We do not know and once again it is irrelevant from the standpoint of whether this is going to get out of hand on a global basis.

However, one point that _is_ of value in assessing this situation is to realize that the Arabs are not the only religious fanatics involved.  Beneath the veneer of rationality lies a core of religious beliefs that drive the Israelis, collectively speaking.  God chose _them_ as his people and nobody else.  God gave the "holy land" to _them_ and to nobody else.  This is what they BELIEVE and in principle it closely mirrors the mindset of the Muslims, differing only in details but not in nature.  

In other words, what we have here is a religious war with a political face painted upon it.  These are the basic truths.

Now, am I mistaken in my understanding that Hamas started lobbing rockets into Israel?  If so, why?  If this the case, then pray tell us what do you believe the Israeli response should be?  We are speaking of Muslims here - people who, statistically taken, respect but one thing: strength.  They despise weakness and when the see it they endeavor to destroy it.  That is what they DO.  Any smoochie-smoochie, lets-be-friends response by Israel will only make the Palestinians want to hurt them all the more.  Again this is a RELIGIOUS war and on top of that it is a war of deeply clashing cultures.  The likelihood that there is a political solution to the disagreements in question approaches zero.

Therefore, Israel is faced with a very practical choice: fight or be consumed.  I suppose they could all pack their bags and move to NJ, but they will not do that.  And even if we grant for argument's sake that the Jews of Europe had no right to go to live in Palestine (an assumption that would violate just about every principle of liberty some of us claim to hold dear), they now have at least a third generation who have been born there and know no other home.  If the Arabs "kick them out", to what place shall they go where they would not be likewise unwelcome and having to start all over again?

I am the first to acknowledge the significant $#@!-ups of the Israeli government, but the "Palestinians" are no babes in the woods either.  There is plenty of blame to go around there.

Were YOU king of Israel, how would YOU resolve this, knowing what the realities are WRT the threats looming at your borders?  Would you just roll over and die?  What endlessly clever thing would you pull out of your hat to save the day for all time such that the Arabs would "come to their senses" and molest your people no more? Is there anything?  Or would you endeavor to slaughter the bastards until such time as they got it straight for another generation or so that you mean business and will not be tread upon?  These are serious questions and if you cannot answer them, then I suggest that your railing against Israel has not legitimate basis.  I am not taking their side against the Arabs - but I am looking at the situation from a practical point of view on the part of the Israelis. Each side has screwed things up.  The Arabs told the Jews the piss-off after '45.  If freedom - real freedom - is in fact the proper underlying principle of all human relations, then what just cause did they have for denying entry and settlement?  So perhaps it was the Arabs who fired the first shots in this decades-long conflict.  Why are the Israelis always the bad guys?  I have known several and still do and all they want is to not get blowed up real good when they go to the market.  

I understand there are elements at work there that are fanatical - the lubavitchers and their religious mania.  On that point I agree with you and others in questioning where are the rest of the people?  But you also have to take into consideration that those people are $#@!-scared.  I would also point out that any significant internal conflict would doom Israel to destruction.  So the average Moishe is faced with the choice of tolerating the jerks who have seized power or risk annihilation by going out and protesting en-masse.  Mr. Rock, meet Mr. Hardplace.

Given that the Muslim states openly hostile to Israel run from just this side of Turkey to the west coast of Africa, covering what I would imagine must be at least one million square miles, I see no reason to begrudge the Israelis just over 7K squares of sand.  This whole deal is dangerously childish and I for one am in no humor for those Muslim $#@!s to provoke a nuclear exchange with their Israeli counterparts.  This is NOT just about them.  It is about all of us.  If Israel nukes Syria, for example, what exactly do you suppose the Russian response might be?  I doubt they will give them hugs and kisses after their people in Damascus become French fries.  How about China?  Pakistan is so $#@!ing unstable in some ways, one may only hazard a guess as to what they might do.

This is a powder keg and the imbeciles Arabs with their imbecile messianic jihadist bull$#@! stand to get us all fracked because it should be born in mind that we do not have to have a hydrogen bomb fall on Manhattan to be sufficiently screwed.  Fallout would be everywhere and it will be loads because I am quite confident in my belief that Israel would employ ground bursts rather than air as they do the most damage and produce the most fallout.

So once again: what is your practical solution to this situation?

----------


## Muwahid

> Hamas fires rockets from densely populated civilian centers, using civilians as 'human shields' so any retaliation will have civilian casualties.  Are they not allowed to be faulted for being responsible for the death of their own peoples?  Hamas charter says they want to destroy Israel, should Israel not be able to defend itself?
> 
> History being as it is, besides the point, Israel built up the area from nothing but a sand dune to a thriving 1st world civilization today.  People say Israel stole the Palestinian land but it was nothing before besides dunes and scarce inhabitants.  Maybe the 'Palestinians' were there before Israel, but Israel was there thousands of years ago before them.  Arguing the 'whos first' point is going to be fruitless as the borders and boundaries change throughout time.  That being said Israel has really developed the area into a modern thriving entity, "Palestine" has no industry and is a 3rd world nation with no resources.  Why do you support them?  If they stopped attacking Israel I bet they would no longer be attacked in retaliation.


This comment is ludicrous. Let's clear some things up, the Palestinians, even those in Izz Adeen al Qassam brigades, all live in the areas being targeted now in Gaza! When you say they fire rockets from densely populated areas, that's where they live! They are backed in a corner and have no other way to fight, don't you think if they had a choice they would protect the civilians (AKA THEIR FAMILIES) and draw battle away from city centers? Besides I think it's vastly exaggerated and simple propaganda to say that all they do is fight from like, pre-schools, or whatever.  it's clearly bullcrap.

Secondly Israel didn't build a damn thing up, Israel was surviving off reparations from Germany the first half of it's existence, give me a bunch of free money and I'll turn where I live into a Utopia -- besides, it wasn't "dunes", you clearly have a very VERY poor knowledge of geography if you think the Levant is full of sand dunes, what do you think it's the Sahara? Yes Israel made the land more fertile, know how? Stealing water from neighboring countries, look at the Golan Heights!

Hamas, and Palestinians *did not attack first* -- by definition NO Palestinian could have attacked an Israeli first, Israel will always be the aggressor, Israel is MURDERING their elected officials, and you're sitting there saying, heh, too bad, don't attack back. Sure if they attack back civilians die since Israel hits them harder, *but if they didn't attack back at all, Israel would wipe them out entirely* -- there's a reason Americans REFUSE to give up their second amendment right to bear arms. If they did so, it's very possible the tyrannical U.S. government would oppress Americans even more, now that they're disarmed, or if a foreign enemy came they would be powerless to defend their land and families. But you're suggesting the Palestinian people just bow their heads to the Israelis, hand over their weapons and allow Israel to do with them as they please.

Lastly, this point drives me nuts. The Hebrew people and the Arab people are inter-related, we are Semitic, the Hebrews largely assimilated with the Arabs, as the Arabs influence became more prominent, the Jews were NEVER kicked out of Palestine by Arabs/Muslims, therefore it's not like they were there, we Arabs kicked em out, n now they want back in -- no they European Jews, are not Semitic Jews, Hebrew as a language was nearly extinct until they revived it -- they are NOT Semitic, the original people living there are, they have NO right to the land whatsoever.

----------


## robert68

> Well, it's from The Blaze.  Take it for what it's worth.
> 
> 
> 
> Iranian Arms Ship Bound for Gaza Reportedly Carrying Long-Range Rockets Able to Reach Tel Aviv, Jerusalem
> 
> http  ://www.theblaze.com/stories/iranian-arms-ship-bound-for-gaza-found-carrying-long-rage-rockets-able-to-reach-tel-aviv-jerusalem/


Whether or not that story is true, it goes to part of the reason why the state of Israel cannot survive without US support, for both itself and many states in the region. The only reason advanced weapons aren’t in the hands of the Palestinians, the natives of Palestine, in numbers dwarfing that of the Hezbollah fighters of Lebanon, is because of US intervention on its behalf of the ruling regimes of Jordan, Egypt, Turkey, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and some others. Israel’s nukes are useless in a local guerilla war, which is what they would be facing if such US intervention on their behalf actually ended; and such a guerilla war would tank Israel’s economy in no time, with significant repercussions.

----------


## RockEnds

> Whether or not that story is true, it goes to part of the reason why the state of Israel cannot survive without US support, for both itself and many states in the region. The only reason advanced weapons aren’t in the hands of the Palestinians, the natives of Palestine, in numbers dwarfing that of the Hezbollah fighters of Lebanon, is because of US intervention on its behalf of the ruling regimes of Jordan, Egypt, Turkey, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and some others. Israel’s nukes are useless in a local guerilla war, which is what they would be facing if such US intervention on their behalf actually ended; and such a guerilla war would tank Israel’s economy in no time, with significant repercussions.


I told my a-dad this the night of the caucus, and I'll say it again.  I am an American.  I am NOT an Israeli.  I do not care.

----------


## robert68

> I told my a-dad this the night of the caucus, and I'll say it again.  I am an American.  I am NOT an Israeli.  I do not care.


To be clear, I wasn't arguing for US intervention.

----------


## RockEnds

> To be clear, I wasn't arguing for US intervention.


Right on.

Israel wanted the land, and they got it.  Maybe they didn't think it through.  I dunno.  All I know is that I don't want their problem to be my problem.  I don't like the idea of being the policemen of the world.  I am most definitely against the idea of being drawn into WWIII.

----------


## furface

> I suspect most Ron Paul supporters are either pro-Palestinian, anti-Zionist, or at the very least, equal opportunity non-interventionist, isolationist. But I suspect lurking between them are some that are happy to intervene for Palestine.


It's impossible to carry on a conversation when people accuse other people of harboring beliefs that they don't explicitly state.  The conversation has to deal with either explicit statements or explicit actions.  If you don't have either of those, it's pure conjecture.

You can tell a lot about the validity of Zionist positions by the way they carry on (or don't) conversations.  There's always a long list of forbidden topics.  For instance here where Zionists are whining about problems with even talking about the issue.  In negotiations & in the media + Western politics, the issue of Israel's legitimacy is absolutely forbidden, while at the same time it is the core issue for virtually everybody in the region.

There's also a barrage  ad hominem attacks, you know "Muslims are maniacs," "Arabs are animals," etc.  Which would also be red herrings even if they were true.  Other red herrings include things like the holocaust, and "Jews only want a small part of the Middle East."

It's very difficult to carry on conversations with Zionists because of all the antics they pull.  RPF is actually one of the few places I've seen anything coming close to a serious conversation on the issue where both sides of the issue are represented & people feel free to bring up otherwise forbidden topics.  It's actually quite amazing when you think about it.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> RT Special Interview with Ron Paul:
> 
> http://rt.com/politics/interview-wit...ul-2008-11-27/


Seriously though, Danno, that doesn't change the fact that RT IS owned and run by the Russian government.  They do have an agenda, just like our own media, so we need to not just blindly accept whatever they say.

----------


## Expatriate

I haven't really done enough research to know if the Iran thing is true or not, but if Iran is arming the Palestinians, is there a reason they would only give them crappy unguided rockets with a high trajectory that are easily shot down by the existing defenses? Surely Iran is capable of making something more effective, like a cheap guided cruise missile. They wouldn't need to smuggle nearly as many in that case, and it would have far more effect.

And what about miniature surface-to-air missile launchers like the Stingers we gave to the Afghans so they could attack Soviet aircraft in Afghanistan? Seems like that would be far easier to smuggle in than huge unguided rockets, and infinitely more useful to the Palestinians in their current situation.

If Iran is actually doing this, is there some reason why they would take the risk of bringing destruction on themselves by sneaking weapons into Gaza, only to give them something totally ineffective?

----------


## angelatc

> i don't believe the human shield story. May as well say Israel does the same thing.


Israel absolutely does the same thing, in that they use Palestinian children as human shields.

----------


## angelatc

> Well, it's from The Blaze.  Take it for what it's worth.
> 
> 
> 
> Iranian Arms Ship Bound for Gaza Reportedly Carrying Long-Range Rockets Able to Reach Tel Aviv, Jerusalem
> 
> http  ://www.theblaze.com/stories/iranian-arms-ship-bound-for-gaza-found-carrying-long-rage-rockets-able-to-reach-tel-aviv-jerusalem/


Half the media says this isn't true.  Based on the American's history of making up WMD and yellow cake operations, I'm inclined to call bull$#@!.

----------


## RockEnds

> Half the media says this isn't true.  Based on the American's history of making up WMD and yellow cake operations, I'm inclined to call bull$#@!.


I can't imagine it's true, either.  

It's being reported that a cease fire will commence at 2200 Zulu.  Crossing my fingers.

http://rt.com/news/israel-gaza-ceasefire-egypt-177/

----------


## Todd

> Incorrect
> 
> http://antiwar.com/blog/2012/11/11/i...ho-started-it/


Good find.   Thank God for Wikileaks




> *The rocket fire did indeed occur immediately before the assault, but it was in response to Israels breaking of the six-month cease-fire, which even Israeli officials in WikiLeaks cables admitted Hamas had kept to.*

----------


## ApathyCured

I'm trying to find it but a few in this thread have said that the "jews" in Israel are not true jewish people.  can someone explain that?  
Are you sayingthere are no real ethnic Jews left or that they just dont live in Israel?

----------


## furface

> I'm trying to find it but a few in this thread have said that the "jews" in Israel are not true jewish people.  can someone explain that?  
> Are you sayingthere are no real ethnic Jews left or that they just dont live in Israel?


I'm not sure what other people said, but I mentioned this book.

http://inventionofthejewishpeople.com/

Shlomo Sand’s claim is that there has historically never been a such thing as a Jewish "nation."  Judaism, he claims, is a religion and shouldn't be viewed as something that merits a state of its own.  In that respect probably most immigrants to Israel aren't practicing Jews and are merely linked to Judaism via some sort of vague genetics.

There are also claims that lots of Russian immigrants in particular aren't Jewish.  They just claim it to get out of Russia and move to Israel with lots of perks.

For instance here's something talking about it.

http://www.thejerusalemconnection.us...wish-jews.html

----------


## amy31416

> I haven't really done enough research to know if the Iran thing is true or not, but if Iran is arming the Palestinians, is there a reason they would only give them crappy unguided rockets with a high trajectory that are easily shot down by the existing defenses? Surely Iran is capable of making something more effective, like a cheap guided cruise missile. They wouldn't need to smuggle nearly as many in that case, and it would have far more effect.
> 
> And what about miniature surface-to-air missile launchers like the Stingers we gave to the Afghans so they could attack Soviet aircraft in Afghanistan? Seems like that would be far easier to smuggle in than huge unguided rockets, and infinitely more useful to the Palestinians in their current situation.
> 
> If Iran is actually doing this, is there some reason why they would take the risk of bringing destruction on themselves by sneaking weapons into Gaza, only to give them something totally ineffective?


It doesn't make sense at all. The only possible reason (that I can think of) Iran might given them crappy rockets, rather than cruise missiles is that if Hamas actually had a successful strike, Israel would flatten Gaza (even more.) 

Perhaps it's actually an Egyptian group, they have easy access to the smuggling tunnels--who knows? We won't get the truth here, everything will be blamed on Iran.

----------


## tsetsefly

I would like to pose a question to everyone here who is pro Hamas, what in your opinion should the solution be with Israel and the Palestinians?

----------


## RockEnds

It's a small miracle that anything ever makes it into Gaza.  Here's the wiki on what is and is not allowed in:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods_a...port_into_Gaza

Can you imagine living like that?

----------


## Tpoints

> You make it sound sinister, but it's no different from what many people did during WWII--save, hide and support Jews. Why wouldn't I do the same for Palestinians/Muslims?


because it's unAmerican to get involved in wars we didn't start?

----------


## pcosmar

> because it's unAmerican to get involved in* wars we didn't start*?


Which ones were that?

----------


## amy31416

> because it's unAmerican to get involved in wars we didn't start?


We've been involved directly and indirectly since 1948.

----------


## pcosmar

> We've been involved directly and indirectly since 1948.


We have been directly involved since the early 1900s.

----------


## COpatriot

Israelis are dropping leaflets. Ground incursion looks likely.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...2#.UKvspIe1XRU

----------


## Demigod

> I would like to pose a question to everyone here who is pro Hamas, what in your opinion should the solution be with Israel and the Palestinians?


Either Israel will kill between 200-300 million Arabs,Persians and Christians in the region or they will leave as they came.Nothing else will end the war that in the end the Arabs will win.The USA will not be able to sponsor their military forever and when the money stops coming it will be a battle of attrition.

Israel has no friends except  the USA and a lot of enemies.

----------


## amy31416

> We have been directly involved since the early 1900s.


Yeah. Didn't want to go that far back if I was questioned on it though because I don't have a good enough internet connection to pull up all the sources to prove it. I know enough off the top of my head to prove our involvement from 1948 on...

----------


## Shane Harris

> The Russian government has propaganda objectives. Talking against Big Government and Oligarchy and Fascism and Socialism and Communism and watching RT or Al Jazeera sounds weird.


When it comes to exposing America, would you trust America's government run media, or a third-party's government run media?

----------


## presence

> Israelis are dropping leaflets. Ground incursion looks likely.
> 
> http://abcnews.go.com/International/...2#.UKvspIe1XRU



Sounds like the rhetoric before Auschwitz.



> To the people Sheik Ahjleen, Tel El Hawar, South of Rimal, Zaytoun area,  Shajiah Toroukman and New Shajiah - the IDF is not targeting you, we do  not want to harm your families.
> *For your safety you are requested to evacuate your houses immediately  and move towards Gaza City Centre through the following routes:*
> - Cairo street
> - Arabic countries university
> - Al Aqsa street
> - Um il Laymoun street
> - Salahaddin
> - Al Mansura street
> - Baghdad street
> ...


http://www.twitlonger.com/show/k2siil

----------


## tsetsefly

> Either Israel will kill between 200-300 million Arabs,Persians and Christians in the region or they will leave as they came.Nothing else will end the war that in the end the Arabs will win.The USA will not be able to sponsor their military forever and when the money stops coming it will be a battle of attrition.
> 
> Israel has no friends except  the USA and a lot of enemies.


SO your solution is for all the jews to live? ... how about those who live their prior to 1948 or those displaced from Arab territories around the time Israel was created?

The anti-semitic argument that all jews must leave completely ignores reality, Israel is going nowhere and neither is Palestine so a solution where both exist will have to be made...

----------


## tsetsefly

> When it comes to exposing America, would you trust America's government run media, or a third-party's government run media?


neither

----------


## tsetsefly

> Sounds like the rhetoric before Auschwitz.


really? , have they built the ovens even?

----------


## Expatriate

> I would like to pose a question to everyone here who is pro Hamas, what in your opinion should the solution be with Israel and the Palestinians?


Well I'm not pro-Hamas or Israel, just anti-aggression, and I don't see any solution to the situation other than magically convincing the people of the region to adopt the non-aggression principle and stop initiating force against each other.

Saying Israel should get the land because it was stolen from their ancient ancestors is like China coming along and saying Native Americans have the right to claim most of North America and move us all into camps if they want because _our_ ancestors stole it from theirs. It's stupid.

At the same time, plenty of people have either been born in Israel or immigrated there with no malicious intent. Even if they're living on land taken from people still living, can you really kick them out? Maybe an argument could be made that those responsible for driving the former inhabitants out should provide compensation, but they will say they only took the land in self defense, or they were only following orders or something.

It's a giant can of worms, and it only exists because of Western powers meddling where they shouldn't. Maybe the best course of action for us is to STOP meddling and let it take its natural course. Private citizens can go over there and spend their own money trying to defuse the situation if they want, but stop forcing us ALL to pay to sustain a situation with such an inherent lack of justice.

----------


## Demigod

> SO your solution is for all the jews to live? ... how about those who live their prior to 1948 or those displaced from Arab territories around the time Israel was created?
> 
> The anti-semitic argument that all jews must leave completely ignores reality, Israel is going nowhere and neither is Palestine so a solution where both exist will have to be made...


Now see you see everything from a logical perspective,a solution that would make sense.But I coming from the Balkans can see it from the emotional perspective and in that perspective there is only either complete victory or complete defeat.

There is no middle ground because no side will ever compromise after so much blood being spilled.We in the Balkans have been fighting for the same reasons as the ME for longer that the USA has been a country.Too much blood has been spilled to just let it go and compromise.Even if there is a compromise by this generation,the next ones will for certainly start a war for what they see as theirs )

The problem with Israel and the Arabs is that the perceived goals that each side has can only be achieved by total annihilation of the other.For Palestine to win all the land possessed by Palestinians to be returned which can only be done if all Israelis leave,for Israel to win it would mean that all their neighbors are pacified and that means their annihilation .

----------


## amy31416

> SO your solution is for all the jews to live? ... how about those who live their prior to 1948 or those displaced from Arab territories around the time Israel was created?
> 
> The anti-semitic argument that all jews must leave completely ignores reality, Israel is going nowhere and neither is Palestine so a solution where both exist will have to be made...


How do you see his speculation on what might happen as his solution to this problem?

In your original question on a "solution" you asked people who love Hamas (or words to that effect), and I choose not to answer because you loaded the question. I do not love or support Hamas, their "strategy" is stupid and they do some heinous things like executing their own people for various "transgressions."

I do, however, support the Palestinians in their fight to get their land back and for those who can not, that they be compensated. They should also be compensated for over 60 years of suffering, if one could put a price on the lives taken and others destroyed.

You worded the question that way intentionally in a less than brilliant attempt to "trap" someone and fling the "anti-semite" canard around. It's pretty weak hasbara.

----------


## presence

> really? , have they built the ovens even?


 
Not that I know, but like the Germans they were very polite, for authoritiarians, when they "asked" them (jews) to board the trains / (muslims) to assemble themselves on restricted routes.

http://history1900s.about.com/od/hol.../auschwitz.htm



> The people who were sent to the left, which was the majority of those  who arrived at Auschwitz, were never told that they had been chosen for  death. The entire mass murder system depended on keeping this secret  from its victims. If the victims had known they were headed to their  death, they would most definitely have fought back. 
> 
>  But they didn't know, so the victims latched onto the hope that the  Nazis wanted them to believe. Having been told that they were going to  be sent to work, the masses of victims believed it when they were told  they first needed to be disinfected and have showers.


It wasn't until they got to the other side that they encountered the nightmare.

----------


## Demigod

> How do you see his speculation on what might happen as his solution to this problem?
> 
> In your original question on a "solution" you asked people who love Hamas (or words to that effect), and I choose not to answer because you loaded the question. I do not love or support Hamas, their "strategy" is stupid and they do some heinous things like executing their own people for various "transgressions."
> 
> I do, however, support the Palestinians in their fight to get their land back and for those who can not, that they be compensated. They should also be compensated for over 60 years of suffering, if one could put a price on the lives taken and others destroyed.
> 
> You worded the question that way intentionally in a less than brilliant attempt to "trap" someone and fling the "anti-semite" canard around. It's pretty weak hasbara.


I don't think the question was a trap but he will only see one part of the answers.See he does not call the part about killing 200-300 million as genocide,a blood bath but he answers on the part about the Israelis leaving as a horrendous solution

----------


## Demigod

> really? , have they built the ovens even?


Not yet but the concentration camps and ghettos are fully operational.





> Not that I know, but like the Germans they were very polite, for authoritiarians, when they "asked" them (jews) to board the trains / (muslims) to assemble themselves on restricted routes.
> 
> http://history1900s.about.com/od/hol.../auschwitz.htm
> 
> 
> It wasn't until they got to the other side that they encountered the nightmare.


There were even parks around the camps with trees where they would let them relax while group after group went to the showers.That was in the start of the war when the Reich seemed to be wining,later on it all turned into a blood orgy with competitions which guard can kill more.

In any case what I hate most about the Holocaust is how one part of the story is always on the front page and the other is hardly spoken.

As much Slavs,Gypsies and other minorities from Eastern Europe were slaughtered in the camps but there is hardly a word written for them ever.

----------


## tsetsefly

> Well I'm not pro-Hamas or Israel, just anti-aggression, and I don't see any solution to the situation other than magically convincing the people of the region to adopt the non-aggression principle and stop initiating force against each other.
> 
> Saying Israel should get the land because it was stolen from their ancient ancestors is like China coming along and saying Native Americans have the right to claim most of North America and move us all into camps if they want because _our_ ancestors stole it from theirs. It's stupid.
> 
> At the same time, plenty of people have either been born in Israel or immigrated there with no malicious intent. Even if they're living on land taken from people still living, can you really kick them out? Maybe an argument could be made that those responsible for driving the former inhabitants out should provide compensation, but they will say they only took the land in self defense, or they were only following orders or something.
> 
> It's a giant can of worms, and it only exists because of Western powers meddling where they shouldn't. Maybe the best course of action for us is to STOP meddling and let it take its natural course. Private citizens can go over there and spend their own money trying to defuse the situation if they want, but stop forcing us ALL to pay to sustain a situation with such an inherent lack of justice.


Exactly, how the state was created was certainly messed up in the first place, but it was british land. 

One thing that must be noted, since the creation of Israel the arabs tried to destroy it and run the jews out of there. 

Also Palestinian leaders aided Germany in the war for the sole purpose of getting rid of jews. It's hard to think one side will use reason when they want to wipe the other from the face of the earth.




> Now see you see everything from a logical perspective,a solution that would make sense.But I coming from the Balkans can see it from the emotional perspective and in that perspective there is only either complete victory or complete defeat.
> 
> There is no middle ground because no side will ever compromise after so much blood being spilled.We in the Balkans have been fighting for the same reasons as the ME for longer that the USA has been a country.Too much blood has been spilled to just let it go and compromise.Even if there is a compromise by this generation,the next ones will for certainly start a war for what they see as theirs )
> 
> The problem with Israel and the Arabs is that the perceived goals that each side has can only be achieved by total annihilation of the other.For Palestine to win all the land possessed by Palestinians to be returned which can only be done if all Israelis leave,for Israel to win it would mean that all their neighbors are pacified and that means their annihilation .


Plenty of nations that have been at war for years finally reached peace terms, just look at all of Europe.
As long as militant Hamas is in charge of Gaza that will never happen.




> How do you see his speculation on what might happen as his solution to this problem?
> 
> In your original question on a "solution" you asked people who love Hamas (or words to that effect), and I choose not to answer because you loaded the question. I do not love or support Hamas, their "strategy" is stupid and they do some heinous things like executing their own people for various "transgressions."
> 
> I do, however, support the Palestinians in their fight to get their land back and for those who can not, that they be compensated. They should also be compensated for over 60 years of suffering, if one could put a price on the lives taken and others destroyed.
> 
> You worded the question that way intentionally in a less than brilliant attempt to "trap" someone and fling the "anti-semite" canard around. It's pretty weak hasbara.


Well alot of people condemn Israel here completely ignoring the fact that if Hamas has been also attacking Israel non stop, so it is not a loaded question at all.
THose condemning Israel expect to just stand by while Gaza continues sending rockets over?

As for the Palestinians they can thank the neighboring countries that in 1948 told them, leave your lands, we will destroy Israel and you can return once the war is over... didn't quite work out that way.  I wouldn't call it 60 years of suffering when Israel barely had weapons to defend itself in the first war they faced...




> Not that I know, but like the Germans they were very polite, for authoritiarians, when they "asked" them (jews) to board the trains / (muslims) to assemble themselves on restricted routes.
> 
> http://history1900s.about.com/od/hol.../auschwitz.htm
> 
> 
> It wasn't until they got to the other side that they encountered the nightmare.


So you're saying Israel is creating work camps where they will systematically kill palestinians? Now is this palestinians in the West Bank also or only in Gaza?




> I don't think the question was a trap but he will only see one part of the answers.See he does not call the part about killing 200-300 million as genocide,a blood bath but he answers on the part about the Israelis leaving as a horrendous solution


More than a horrendouse solution it's completely unrealistic. 


Israel by far is the most civilized country int he region and you can at least see a semblance of individual rights. Compared to their neighbors they have quite a free economy and have a quasi-capitalist system. Just today it was reported that Tel Aviv is top 3 in the world when it comes to internet start ups http://techcrunch.com/2012/11/20/sta...-lead-the-way/

Compared to it's neighbors ruled by anti-science, anti-individual rights, dictators.(the arab spring just replaced dictators with other religious zealots)

Just answer this in regards to Israel and it's neighbors:
1. Where are gay people more accepted, Israel or arab countries?
2. Why are women treated so poorly in neighboring countries?
3. Who is more accepting of other religions and atheist/agnostics?

Heck you have a sizable arab and muslim population in Israel, something you don't see in Arab countries when it comes to Jews.

Israel would have no embargo or have no problem with Palestinian controlled territories if it weren't for the risk of suicide bomber and rockets. Palestinian leaders what nothing more than the complete annihilation of Israel and that is what prevent any meaningful change to happen. I am not saying Israel has no fault in this but it's hard to side with a theological militant group hell bent on making another Iran like state. At least Israel is a secular state for the most part...

----------


## RockEnds

You know, when I was in Amman with my husband and his family, I somehow missed all this, tsetsefly.  Maybe if I could have actually gone into Israel I would have developed a different opinion?  I couldn't.  They wouldn't let my husband in.  His parents left in '48, and they couldn't go back even to see the place.  I had to go the mountaintop, Nebo, to see what could be seen from there.  Kinda felt like Moses.  Couldn't cross the Jordan.  I really enjoyed my time in Jordan, though.  I'm not really sure what horrible conditions you think I should have experienced there.

----------


## Demigod

> Plenty of nations that have been at war for years finally reached peace terms, just look at all of Europe.
> As long as militant Hamas is in charge of Gaza that will never happen.


There have been longer times of peace in Europe than the current 11 years old peace.Also the peace will last as long as the social programs last and as Europe is going more broke every year soon enough we will see the old ways coming back.

Even today there are a dozen MAJOR separatist movements and almost every country has a region that wants to secede and most have 2 or more.
Some countries are over ran with immigrants that are treated as second class citizens and are a land mine waiting to explode.
Not to even mention all the old region disputes and blood debt that are just waiting to be reopened 

Europe is a  time bomb.This is why every European laughed when the EU got the Peace Prize because EU has only made everything worse.

.

----------


## amy31416

tsetsefly, it would behoove you to read a few articles:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...end-themselves

http://antiwar.com/blog/2012/11/11/i...ho-started-it/

I'd provide more links, but my internet connection is particularly slow today. Read the articles, you really need to.

----------


## RockEnds

I did have a conversation with some young Palestinian men about the issue of Israel while I was in the ME.  At the end of the conversation the pulled out a...

guitar...

and we all sang this song together:

----------


## angelatc

> Sounds like the rhetoric before Auschwitz.
> 
> 
> http://www.twitlonger.com/show/k2siil


"And when you get back, don't be surprised to see a nice Jewish family now lives in your home. Too bad for you!"

----------


## angelatc

> As much Slavs,Gypsies and other minorities from Eastern Europe were slaughtered in the camps but there is hardly a word written for them ever.


When I was in Germany, my friend's child got all big-eyed when she saw a black person.  My friend said there weren't many blacks in Germany, since the Nazi's.  I had no idea! So I started reading, and found all the groups you listed, plus others (Jehovah's Witnesses come to mind) were also victims of the holocaust.

I pointed that out to an evangelical once, ad was accused of lying.  Because I am anti-semitic. 

It was unreal - like the fact that the Jews weren't the only persecuted group was somehow offensive to the Jews. 

I still don't get it.

----------


## presence

> When I was in Germany, my friend's child got all big-eyed when she saw a black person.


Reminds me of when my little brother was first exposed to a dark skinned person.  Age 3 he came out of the hotel swimming pool screaming to mom, veins sticking out of neck, "they're gonna make the pool all dirty".  Self?  Exit stage left.  Definitely "Top 10 Most Embarrassing Moments" material.

/facepalm

----------


## tsetsefly

> You know, when I was in Amman with my husband and his family, I somehow missed all this, tsetsefly.  Maybe if I could have actually gone into Israel I would have developed a different opinion?  I couldn't.  They wouldn't let my husband in.  His parents left in '48, and they couldn't go back even to see the place.  I had to go the mountaintop, Nebo, to see what could be seen from there.  Kinda felt like Moses.  Couldn't cross the Jordan.  I really enjoyed my time in Jordan, though.  I'm not really sure what horrible conditions you think I should have experienced there.


I don't what the point of this is, I think they should be let in. 

Israelis can't enter arab countries, just to play in Dubai 3 Israeli tennis players where finally allowed to play after the ATP threatened to move the tournament out of there if they were discriminated.
In fact I don't think you can enter neighboring countries after you have visited Israel.

----------


## tsetsefly

> There have been longer times of peace in Europe than the current 11 years old peace.Also the peace will last as long as the social programs last and as Europe is going more broke every year soon enough we will see the old ways coming back.
> 
> Even today there are a dozen MAJOR separatist movements and almost every country has a region that wants to secede and most have 2 or more.
> Some countries are over ran with immigrants that are treated as second class citizens and are a land mine waiting to explode.
> Not to even mention all the old region disputes and blood debt that are just waiting to be reopened 
> 
> Europe is a  time bomb.This is why every European laughed when the EU got the Peace Prize because EU has only made everything worse.
> 
> .


I wasn't even refering to this century or the last one...

As for the immigrants, you are right and unfortunately a lot of those immigrants are muslim immigrants who can't grasp the concept of separation of church and state...

----------


## Demigod

> I wasn't even refering to this century or the last one...
> 
> As for the immigrants, you are right and unfortunately a lot of those immigrants are muslim immigrants who can't grasp the concept of separation of church and state...



 оф боже со кој сум нашол да си трошам време.

----------


## RickyJ

> Reminds me of when my little brother was first exposed to a dark skinned person.  Age 3 he came out of the hotel swimming pool screaming to mom, veins sticking out of neck, "they're gonna make the pool all dirty".  Self?  Exit stage left.  Definitely "Top 10 Most Embarrassing Moments" material.
> 
> /facepalm


He must of thought they were white and just really dirty. Though it is hard to believe the little tyke didn't see them on TV before that.

----------


## tsetsefly

> tsetsefly, it would behoove you to read a few articles:
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...end-themselves
> 
> http://antiwar.com/blog/2012/11/11/i...ho-started-it/
> 
> I'd provide more links, but my internet connection is particularly slow today. Read the articles, you really need to.


I can understand the Israeli blockade. THe fact is if the blockaed is lifted and Hamas is truly given free reign over Gaza what do you think is going to happen?

They will open markets and form a with quasi-individual rights? no, more likely they will they install a theological Iran like regime, continue to terrorize their own citizens and build up a military to attack Israel.

Or what is your solution to the problem? Have the US intervene and attack Israel or even better the UN?

----------


## tsetsefly

> When I was in Germany, my friend's child got all big-eyed when she saw a black person.  My friend said there weren't many blacks in Germany, since the Nazi's.  I had no idea! So I started reading, and found all the groups you listed, plus others (Jehovah's Witnesses come to mind) were also victims of the holocaust.
> 
> I pointed that out to an evangelical once, ad was accused of lying.  Because I am anti-semitic. 
> 
> It was unreal - like the fact that the Jews weren't the only persecuted group was somehow offensive to the Jews. 
> 
> I still don't get it.


I don't know when or where in Germany you went, but there are quite a few african immigrants living there, and have been for the last 10 years...

----------


## RockEnds

> I don't what the point of this is, I think they should be let in. 
> 
> Israelis can't enter arab countries, just to play in Dubai 3 Israeli tennis players where finally allowed to play after the ATP threatened to move the tournament out of there if they were discriminated.
> In fact I don't think you can enter neighboring countries after you have visited Israel.


You made the comment that 


> Israel by far is the most civilized country int he region...


 and so on.  I guess I can't compare degrees of civility since I wasn't afforded that opportunity, but I most definitely did not find Jordan uncivilized.  You say Israel is more civilized.  I guess I'll have to take your word for that, but what I cannot accept is the insinuations that the Palestinian people are somehow inferior to the rest of humanity, that they cannot be mentioned without the mention of suicide bombers and rockets.  I just didn't happen to see any of that.  I saw a community built upon the family unit, and they were very strong, caring families.  I do try not to be collectivist as much as possible.  I saw a group of individuals, many, but nonetheless, I didn't meet each and every Palestinian who has ever lived.  I'm sure there are some whose company I would not have enjoyed as much.  But hey, I know some less than stellar folks here in the US of A, too.  I would hope the world would not judge the entire nation based on the actions of a few.  I try very hard to reciprocate.  

I have nothing whatsoever against Israelis, but I'm growing really tired of the seemingly endless claims that they are a people somehow superior to Palestinians.

----------


## tsetsefly

> You made the comment that  and so on.  I guess I can't compare degrees of civility since I wasn't afforded that opportunity, but I most definitely did not find Jordan uncivilized.  You say Israel is more civilized.  I guess I'll have to take your word for that, but what I cannot accept is the insinuations that the Palestinian people are somehow inferior to the rest of humanity, that they cannot be mentioned without the mention of suicide bombers and rockets.  I just didn't happen to see any of that.  I saw a community built upon the family unit, and they were very strong, caring families.  I do try not to be collectivist as much as possible.  I saw a group of individuals, many, but nonetheless, I didn't meet each and every Palestinian who has ever lived.  I'm sure there are some whose company I would not have enjoyed as much.  But hey, I know some less than stellar folks here in the US of A, too.  I would hope the world would not judge the entire nation based on the actions of a few.  I try very hard to reciprocate.  
> 
> I have nothing whatsoever against Israelis, but I'm growing really tired of the seemingly endless claims that they are a people somehow superior to Palestinians.


Jordan is far more progressive than it's neighbours ironically they where among the first if no the first to sign a peace agreement with ISrael, and has there been any conflict between them?
As for Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, the PA and Hamas etc. they are far from tolerant nations. 

As for superiority, no one is making the claim that Israelis are superior to palestinians, I'm certainly not. I don't know how you're reading that from the whole situation/debate in general.

THe debate is basically, do you think Israel has a right to exist? I believe they do, a Hamas controlled gaza believes the opposite. There can be no peace until they come to grips with the fact that Israel is here to stay. If they have a gripe with that, they should be bombing the brits and any nation that voted for Israel in the UN resolution...

That is why I asked, what is the solution? I believe most people who are against Israel here think it does not have a right to exist and the solution is to:

----------


## idiom

H/T: http://ronpaulproblems.tumblr.com/

----------


## awake

Right to exist? Tell that to the generations of dead innocent men , women and children...Peace will happen when the US stops funding and blindly backing Israel. Strict non intervention.

----------


## mac_hine

This video is being scrubbed from the internet. Watch it before it no longer exists.



I watched a mirror of this earlier today which had close to 10,000 views.  I was planning on posting it. Youtube removed it. Here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=CJ8yeZcgV3E

----------


## RockEnds

> Jordan is far more progressive than it's neighbours ironically they where among the first if no the first to sign a peace agreement with ISrael, and has there been any conflict between them?
> As for Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, the PA and Hamas etc. they are far from tolerant nations. 
> 
> As for superiority, no one is making the claim that Israelis are superior to palestinians, I'm certainly not. I don't know how you're reading that from the whole situation/debate in general.
> 
> THe debate is basically, do you think Israel has a right to exist? I believe they do, a Hamas controlled gaza believes the opposite. There can be no peace until they come to grips with the fact that Israel is here to stay. If they have a gripe with that, they should be bombing the brits and any nation that voted for Israel in the UN resolution...
> 
> That is why I asked, what is the solution? I believe most people who are against Israel here think it does not have a right to exist and the solution is to:


I am not against Israel.  I am for the rights of individuals.  All individuals have the right to life.  All of them.

----------


## tsetsefly

> I am not against Israel.  I am for the rights of individuals.  All individuals have the right to life.  All of them.


No one is disputing that.

I asked what do you think the solution is?
 and if you think Israel has the right to exist?

----------


## tsetsefly

> Right to exist? Tell that to the generations of dead innocent men , women and children...Peace will happen when the US stops funding and blindly backing Israel. Strict non intervention.


Which one's the jews killed by palestnians orthe palestinians killed by jews?

THe US has to stop funding foreign government and military's, I agree there. However, that will not solve the problem...

----------


## ClydeCoulter

Off twitter https://twitter.com/RuwaydaMustafah/...51340074086401



> Interesting to note @Reuters usage of terminology in their Gaza coverage. Israelis 'Killed' but Palestinian children 'died'. Objective?

----------


## Dr.3D

> Which one's the jews killed by palestnians orthe palestinians killed by jews?
> 
> THe US has to stop funding foreign government and military's, I agree there. However, that will not solve the problem...


True, that area has been in conflict for thousands of years.   I believe it's because of it's location.  For the longest time, the only way to go around the Mediterranean sea was to cross through that area.  The only other way was to get on a boat and cross that way.  I doubt the U.S. being not involved would change anything except the culpability of the taxpayers in the bloodshed that is happening over there.

----------


## RockEnds

> No one is disputing that.
> 
> I asked what do you think the solution is?
>  and if you think Israel has the right to exist?


Solution?  You mean like a magic wand that can be waved upon mankind and we all starting singing Kum Ba Ya?  Sorry, I do not have such a solution.  I believe in individual rights and responsibilities.  It's a common belief system here.  I find that keeping my own moral compass pointed in the right direction is quite a sizable undertaking.  Add the responsibility to teach my children self-control, and well, I'm booked.  

I don't believe in the "rights" of any government.  As I stated previously, I believe all individuals have the right to life.  Governments are not individuals.  Governments derive just power from the consent of the governed.  I am not a citizen of Israel.  It's not my call.

----------


## Shane Harris

> This video is being scrubbed from the internet. Watch it before it no longer exists.
> 
> 
> 
> I watched a mirror of this earlier today which had close to 10,000 views.  I was planning on posting it. Youtube removed it. Here is the link:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=CJ8yeZcgV3E


regardless, such disproportionate violence against civilians is repulsive. I would share this on facebook, but I don't have the stomach to. Instead I use articles and videos that aren't graphic, but every once in a while people need to see for themselves the realities of war and american ignorance.

----------


## tsetsefly

> Solution?  You mean like a magic wand that can be waved upon mankind and we all starting singing Kum Ba Ya?  Sorry, I do not have such a solution.  I believe in individual rights and responsibilities.  It's a common belief system here.  I find that keeping my own moral compass pointed in the right direction is quite a sizable undertaking.  Add the responsibility to teach my children self-control, and well, I'm booked.  
> 
> I don't believe in the "rights" of any government.  As I stated previously, I believe all individuals have the right to life.  Governments are not individuals.  Governments derive just power from the consent of the governed.  I am not a citizen of Israel.  It's not my call.


Agree. So what government do you think most closely aligns with individual rights? Israel with freer economic policies, more tolerance of alternative lifestyles and religions or the islamofascist hamas government?  Just look at how they treat people of other religions and murder political opponents...
It would be great if Hamas would adopt a semblence of individual rights based platform or any middle east government, that will never happen in our lifetimes.

----------


## P3ter_Griffin

http://reuters.livestation.com/demo

Just watched the sunrise in Gaza 

Pretty uneventful but its a live feed from Israel-Gaza border...  maybe we'll get a show? opcorn:

----------


## RockEnds

> Agree. *So what government do you think most closely aligns with individual rights?* Israel with freer economic policies, more tolerance of alternative lifestyles and religions or the islamofascist hamas government?  Just look at how they treat people of other religions and murder political opponents...
> It would be great if Hamas would adopt a semblence of individual rights based platform or any middle east government, that will never happen in our lifetimes.


Is that a real question?  

I very much dislike your taste in videos.  It was already posted on another thread earlier this week.  For a woman who prides herself on her opposition to collectivism, she certainly is collectivist.  

I like this video much better.  





And I thought we had this civilized vs savage conversation earlier.

----------


## Muwahid

> Agree. So what government do you think most closely aligns with individual rights? Israel with freer economic policies, more tolerance of alternative lifestyles and religions or the islamofascist hamas government?  Just look at how they treat people of other religions and murder political opponents...
> It would be great if Hamas would adopt a semblence of individual rights based platform or any middle east government, that will never happen in our lifetimes.


Ahahahahhahahahhaah, WHAT?!?!?

Israel is an apartheid state. As I type this Israel is oppressing people for their culture and religion. What because they let gays dance around and parade they're more tolerable? They have children in their prisons!

Atrocious hypocrisy. Honestly, look at the history of Palestine... Jews have it, they hate on Muslims and Christians, Christians had it, they killed Jews and Muslims, Muslims had it, they protected the rights of both religions, and we're called Islamofascists?? lmao.

----------


## Shane Harris

Found this beauty on facebook from a tea party page that was liked by one of my zionist israel-firster "friends". Where to start with these morons? http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...r&notif_t=like (link to the site's photo)





sigh...

----------


## pcosmar

> True, that area has been in conflict for thousands of years.


Where does this come from? 
Not picking on you Dr.3D,, but I have heard this often.

Except for the wars of Empires,, and changing empires, that area is more peaceful than not.
People of various religious faiths have lived together and peacefully coexisted. For the most part.

Even as far back as the "Crusades",, which was just empire expansion under the guise of religion.

----------


## ClydeCoulter

> Found this beauty on facebook from a tea party page that was liked by one of my zionist israel-firster "friends". Where to start with these morons?
> 
> sigh...
> 
> (Images removed)


Does noone ever read the Old Testement?  God tells them to kill every man, woman, child and even all the cattle, everything alive...  really?

----------


## AuH20

Hamas. Noble freedom fighters......Yeah right

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/s...,6497236.story



> Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri hailed the explosion.
> 
> "Hamas blesses the attack in Tel Aviv and sees it as a natural response to the Israeli massacres...in Gaza," he told Reuters. "Palestinian factions will resort to all means in order to protect our Palestinian civilians in the absence of a world effort to stop the Israeli aggression."


Maybe next they can bomb a senior home and gloat about it.

----------


## RockEnds

This article poses questions other than the standard, loaded "Does Israel have the right to exist?" type.  

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...831534612.html




> International law, the Gaza war, and Palestine's state of exception 
> 
> The large-scale military assault launched by Israel on Gaza, and the manner in which both Israeli and Palestinian forces are fighting this war, raise numerous red flags regarding large scale violations of human rights and international humanitarian law (IHL). Such violations have long characterised the Israeli-Palestinian conflict; yet despite post-Cold War improvements in the enforceability of international criminal law, in the Israeli-Palestinian context those who perpetrate human rights violations and war crimes seem largely immune to legal accountability.
> 
> Certainly, international law offers no panacea for the death and destruction of war; nor does most media coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict devote more than the scantiest attention to the human rights implications of such violence. International law does, however, provide the most important standard against which the conduct of opposing sides can be judged. Such judgments have political currency, if not during the heat of battle then later. As Gaza-based human rights campaigner Raji Sourani described it in the midst of the current violence, human rights is the "skin" to protect civilians from the all-out aggression of those who attack them.
> 
> International law impacts the present war in Gaza in two key ways. One pertains to whether the violence deployed by each side complies with or violates IHL, in particular the Geneva Conventions of 1949 and their Additional Protocol I of 1977. The other, more complicated issue pertains to the legal status of Gaza and its relationship to Israel, which profoundly affects what kind of violence Israel can deploy there.
> 
> Since the 1967 conquest of Gaza and the West Bank, Israel has asserted that the Geneva Conventions do not apply to these areas or govern Israel's conduct toward Palestinian inhabitants on several grounds, including that Palestinians are not a High Contracting Party (state signatory). However, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the official guardian and authoritative interpreter of IHL, has consistently maintained that the Fourth Geneva Convention, which governs militarily captured territories and their civilian population, is applicable. This view is endorsed by a vast preponderance of international legal opinion, including United Nations resolutions and the opinion of the International Court of Justice.
> ...


I haven't had time to read the whole article.  I may face my own internal hostilities if I don't get myself to the kitchen sooner rather than later.  However, if nothing else, it does pose questions worth asking.

----------


## JK/SEA

Sure glad Israel is taking the high road on this, thanks to U.S. taxpayers, and the support of America Last groups like Christian orgs.

''its all bull$#@!, and none of its good for you''

--George Carlin

----------


## Dr.3D

> Where does this come from? 
> Not picking on you Dr.3D,, but I have heard this often.
> 
> Except for the wars of Empires,, and changing empires, that area is more peaceful than not.
> People of various religious faiths have lived together and peacefully coexisted. For the most part.
> 
> Even as far back as the "Crusades",, which was just empire expansion under the guise of religion.


I think this article explains the situation far better than I can.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...arallel/1.html

----------


## tsetsefly

> Ahahahahhahahahhaah, WHAT?!?!?
> 
> Israel is an apartheid state. As I type this Israel is oppressing people for their culture and religion. What because they let gays dance around and parade they're more tolerable? They have children in their prisons!
> 
> Atrocious hypocrisy. Honestly, look at the history of Palestine... Jews have it, they hate on Muslims and Christians, Christians had it, they killed Jews and Muslims, Muslims had it, they protected the rights of both religions, and we're called Islamofascists?? lmao.


SO basically:

Jews have always been bad. Muslims always good, yup that sums up things pretty good especially with how tolerant modern day islamic nations are!

----------


## Tpoints

> No one is disputing that.
> 
> I asked what do you think the solution is?
>  and if you think Israel has the right to exist?


that's the best trick question, "right to exist" no country has a right to exist, there is no law, international or otherwise that declares or guarantees a country (or self proclaimed country) their "right to exist".

----------


## Tpoints

> Where does this come from? 
> Not picking on you Dr.3D,, but I have heard this often.
> 
> Except for the wars of Empires,, and changing empires, that area is more peaceful than not.
> People of various religious faiths have lived together and peacefully coexisted. For the most part.
> 
> Even as far back as the "Crusades",, which was just empire expansion under the guise of religion.


that's basically what he meant. for a duration of thousands of years, people have had conflicts there, maybe not continuously, just repeatedly in the same area.

----------


## ClydeCoulter

> that's basically what he meant. for a duration of thousands of years, people have had conflicts there, maybe not continuously, just repeatedly in the same area.


Mostly from outside agression?

The argument I hear all the time is "infighting for thousands of years".

----------


## Demigod

> that's basically what he meant. for a duration of thousands of years, people have had conflicts there, maybe not continuously, just repeatedly in the same area.


Give me a region in Euroazia and Africa that has not seen fighting for thousands of years.

----------


## RockEnds

> Give me a region in Euroazia and Africa that has not seen fighting for thousands of years.


I trace my ancestry back to the ever peaceful Germans and Scots-Irish with more than a few border reiver surnames.  Nothing to see there but peaceful coexistence.  

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....hil/#Question2

/sarc

----------


## Dr.3D

> Mostly from outside agression?
> 
> The argument I hear all the time is "infighting for thousands of years".


It is some of both.

Again, I suggest you read this web page to understand what I've been talking about.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...arallel/1.html

----------


## awake

To the blind allegiance to Israel kool aid drinkers...

----------


## JK/SEA

> To the blind allegiance to Israel kool aid drinkers...


should be last word in this thread.

close thread.

+rep

----------


## awake

Here is a thought experiment: Two men ; one has a lifetime get out of jail card no matter what he does; the other has no card at all. Do you think both men will act the same throughout life? Answer honestly...

Israel has guaranteed US taxpayer funding and a US lifetime 'get out of jail card'. They are acting like 'little angles' with it.

My unvarnished point: Any time there is any serous talk of peace or cutting Israel off there will be a "Hamas rocket"
 to stop it.

----------


## politics

> I think this article explains the situation far better than I can.
> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...arallel/1.html


good article

----------


## James Madison

> When I was in Germany, my friend's child got all big-eyed when she saw a black person.  My friend said there weren't many blacks in Germany, since the Nazi's.  I had no idea! So I started reading, and found all the groups you listed, plus others (Jehovah's Witnesses come to mind) were also victims of the holocaust.
> 
> I pointed that out to an evangelical once, ad was accused of lying.  Because I am anti-semitic. 
> 
> It was unreal - like the fact that the Jews weren't the only persecuted group was somehow offensive to the Jews. 
> 
> I still don't get it.


Welcome to the bizzarro world of Christian Zionism.

Flashback: John Hagee Denies Christ as the Messiah.

----------


## Tpoints

> Mostly from outside agression?
> 
> The argument I hear all the time is "infighting for thousands of years".


I don't think if you were caught in the crossfire, you'd care where the aggression was coming from.

----------


## Tpoints

> Give me a region in Euroazia and Africa that has not seen fighting for thousands of years.


Unless it was completely uninhabited, I can't.

----------


## Vanilluxe

You know, for the people who says Islamic countries cannot have democracy and free markets, I would say the example of Turkey rebuffs the arguments.  Turkey has a strong secular government with a population of muslims.

----------


## Dr.3D

> You know, for the people who says Islamic countries cannot have *democracy* and free markets, I would say the example of Turkey rebuffs the arguments.  Turkey has a strong secular government with a population of muslims.


Who wants a democracy?

----------


## Tpoints

> You know, for the people who says Islamic countries cannot have democracy and free markets, I would say the example of Turkey rebuffs the arguments.  Turkey has a strong secular government with a population of muslims.


are they a free market? How do they treat Kurds, and how are they treated when they enter places like Germany?

----------


## Vanilluxe

> are they a free market? How do they treat Kurds, and how are they treated when they enter places like Germany?


Yes, they are a free market, they have have a larger economy than Australia or Canada.  They treat kurds fine and Kurds terorist not fine.  They are the western Japan.  Turkish-German relationship has been strong since the Ottoman and German empires were allies in WWI.

----------


## pcosmar

> Yes, they are a free market, they have have a larger economy than Australia or Canada.  They treat kurds fine and Kurds terorist not fine.  They are the western Japan.  Turkish-German relationship has been strong since the Ottoman and German empires were allies in WWI.


That whole area was trade routes and produce,, Free trade was the norm.. Empires restricted trade.

----------


## Vanilluxe

> That whole area was trade routes and produce,, Free trade was the norm.. Empires restricted trade.


The German and Ottoman Empires are long gone nearly a century ago.

----------


## tsetsefly

> You know, for the people who says Islamic countries cannot have democracy and free markets, I would say the example of Turkey rebuffs the arguments.  Turkey has a strong secular government with a population of muslims.


A soon to be extint secular government as muslims have taken control of government.

Islamic countries are those that are ruled by government where Islam is the official religion, not countries with a large muslim population..

----------


## pcosmar

> The German and Ottoman Empires are long gone nearly a century ago.


So?

British Empire held Palestine and made a deal with the Rothschild Empire.

My statement stands,, Empires restrict trade.

----------


## Vanilluxe

> A soon to be extint secular government as muslims have taken control of government.
> 
> Islamic countries are those that are ruled by government where Islam is the official religion, not countries with a large muslim population..


Muslims were always in the government of Turkey, and the constitution made by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk pushes religion out of government.  Turkey is also an observer and soon to be part of the European Union.

----------


## UWDude

> When I was in Germany, my friend's child got all big-eyed when she saw a black person.  My friend said there weren't many blacks in Germany, since the Nazi's.  I had no idea! So I started reading, and found all the groups you listed, plus others (Jehovah's Witnesses come to mind) were also victims of the holocaust.
> 
> I pointed that out to an evangelical once, ad was accused of lying.  Because I am anti-semitic. 
> 
> It was unreal - like the fact that the Jews weren't the only persecuted group was somehow offensive to the Jews. 
> 
> I still don't get it.


In concentration camps, Jews got yellow six pointed stars, Homosexuals got pink triangles.
There were a variety of other colors and shapes too for all the other "deviants".
Now you know where the pink triangle came from.

----------


## osan

> The German and Ottoman Empires are long gone nearly a century ago.


You need to learn the difference between a map and the terrain it represents.  In this specific case you need to train yourself to recognize Empire even where the term is absent from the title.  The USA is by all means an Empire despite "Empire" not being part of the official name.  Analysis 001.  This is your free lesson for today and you are welcome. 

Let me add that a key aspect of adept analytical work is the ability to separate the signal from the noise, thereby allowing one to identify the fundamental mechanisms at work in a given circumstance.  Without this, a person spends their time mired in the meaningless details attached to the root issues.   This, of course, prevents them from identifying the real questions.  This shortcoming is almost universal. Proportionally speaking, very few people possess this training and are, therefore, at the very best second rate analysts.  This is a very serious problem and can hardly be overstated.

----------


## RockEnds

> When I was in Germany, my friend's child got all big-eyed when she saw a black person.  My friend said there weren't many blacks in Germany, since the Nazi's.  I had no idea! So I started reading, and found all the groups you listed, plus others (Jehovah's Witnesses come to mind) were also victims of the holocaust.
> 
> I pointed that out to an evangelical once, ad was accused of lying.  Because I am anti-semitic. 
> 
> It was unreal - like the fact that the Jews weren't the only persecuted group was somehow offensive to the Jews. 
> 
> I still don't get it.


Each time I come here, I learn I've lived a sheltered life!  I didn't know that it's not common knowledge that many other groups were sent to the camps.  

When I was in Germany, we were stationed at the post at Wildflecken, a former Displaced Persons camp.  Poles were the primary residents.  We initially stayed at the gasthaus on post, so to kill some time I went to the library and checked out a book on the place.  I have not seen it since, but it was an excellent read.  It primary deals with the Poles at Wildflecken, but it gets into the larger picture including finding a place in the world for these various groups of dislocated people.  I found it very informative.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6...the-wild-place

----------

