# Start Here > Guest Forum >  Minimum wage as a means to lessen the amount of theft that takes place

## Boshembechle

Nobody denies that an increase in MW decreases the need for public welfare dollars on the part of poor workers. So my question is this. What is more important to you? Theft in the form of welfare or liberty in the form of a free price system in the wage market. You simply cannot have both. that is illogical.

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## Seraphim

WRONG.

I deny that. Why? Minimum wage has repeatedly been shown to increase unemployement which puts MORE people on the taxpayer dole.




> *Nobody denies that an increase in MW decreases the need for public welfare dollars on the part of poor workers*. So my question is this. What is more important to you? Theft in the form of welfare or liberty in the form of a free price system in the wage market. You simply cannot have both. that is illogical.

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## dannno

Ya a higher minimum wage is going to increase those on welfare and hurt the poor the most.

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## DamianTV

Separation of Quantity from Value of Money:

This is something that people commonly miss.  The primary cause for needed increases in Minimum Wage results from the loss of value of each dollar.  If the value of the dollar did not continue to drop, the need for constant adjustments to the Minimum Wage would not be needed.  But also notice that the Minimum Wage adjustments affect the quantity of dollars, but do absolutely nothing to preserve the value.  Our money system is a Fiat Currency, where money can just be 'printed'.  Fiat Currency, or freshly printed money, gets its value from the value placed on the rest of that currency in existence.  In essence, it 'steals' value from currency that already exists, thus lessening its value.  This is Inflation.  An increase in the money supply.  Thats when prices of everything go up by X percent, but wages for everyone, not just Minimum Wage, do not increase by the same ammt.  As prices increase, the purchasing power of each fiat dollar goes down, which creates the need to adjust Minimum Wage quantities.

If this concept is not understood, then we are not going after the root of the problem.  Now, by the same theory as the thread title, if it were possible to increase the value of each individual fiat dollar, adjustments to the quantity would not be needed, but would also have the same effect (in theory) of '... lessening the amount of theft that takes place'.

An increase in the value of each individual dollar would benefit every person who holds those dollars.  An increase in the quantity of said currency only benefits those with the power to create that currency, which is NOT just the Central Banks, but ALL Banks.

With Quantity increases, the burden of that wage takes away from the employer to provide to the employees, which means LESS jobs are available.  Increasing the Value would not adversly affect the employers and the same number of employees could be kept.

Remember when the price of gas dropped to a buck a gallon?  Each dollar went further, and our economy boomed.  Then during the collapse, lots of money was printed and the price of gas went up to 500% or very close (in some areas, mine) to $5.00 per gallon.  Those prices were passed on to the consumers, not just at the pump, but every good that needed to be transported.

Once the separation between quantity and value of a currency is understood, real long term solutions can be sought.

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## VIDEODROME

I'm willing to consider this could work if you're willing to live only in a world of Big Box Stores and Factories and all small businesses have been decimated. 

Or all small businesses will have to become One Man(Woman) operations who do not pay themselves a wage.  Maybe all employees would change over to 1099 independent contractors.

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## erowe1

The first sentence is funny.

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## CaptUSA

> The first sentence is funny.


Yeah, I'm not sure what to make of the OP.  My first thought was an ill-informed mental contortionist but now I just think it's one of us playing a little internet game.

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## Cleaner44

The OP clearly prefers to grow the giant corporations at the price of small businesses.  Apparently his end goal is to have Walmart as the only employer in America and the 99% all making minimum wage.  I can only guess that his plan to make healthcare more affordable by tripling rates has worked so well, that he now wants to reduce all workers to minimum wages working for a single trans-national corporation that owns the politicians in DC.  Why does he hate the workers so?

Seriously... I deny that an increase in MW decreases the need for public welfare dollars on the part of poor workers.

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## oyarde

> Nobody denies that an increase in MW decreases the need for public welfare dollars on the part of poor workers. So my question is this. What is more important to you? Theft in the form of welfare or liberty in the form of a free price system in the wage market. You simply cannot have both. that is illogical.


I deny your first sentence , but it did make me laugh.

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## Feeding the Abscess

> Separation of Quantity from Value of Money:
> 
> This is something that people commonly miss.  The primary cause for needed increases in Minimum Wage results from the loss of value of each dollar.  If the value of the dollar did not continue to drop, the need for constant adjustments to the Minimum Wage would not be needed.  But also notice that the Minimum Wage adjustments affect the quantity of dollars, but do absolutely nothing to preserve the value.  Our money system is a Fiat Currency, where money can just be 'printed'.  Fiat Currency, or freshly printed money, gets its value from the value placed on the rest of that currency in existence.  In essence, it 'steals' value from currency that already exists, thus lessening its value.  This is Inflation.  An increase in the money supply.  Thats when prices of everything go up by X percent, but wages for everyone, not just Minimum Wage, do not increase by the same ammt.  As prices increase, the purchasing power of each fiat dollar goes down, which creates the need to adjust Minimum Wage quantities.
> 
> If this concept is not understood, then we are not going after the root of the problem.  Now, by the same theory as the thread title, if it were possible to increase the value of each individual fiat dollar, adjustments to the quantity would not be needed, but would also have the same effect (in theory) of '... lessening the amount of theft that takes place'.
> 
> An increase in the value of each individual dollar would benefit every person who holds those dollars.  An increase in the quantity of said currency only benefits those with the power to create that currency, which is NOT just the Central Banks, but ALL Banks.
> 
> With Quantity increases, the burden of that wage takes away from the employer to provide to the employees, which means LESS jobs are available.  Increasing the Value would not adversly affect the employers and the same number of employees could be kept.
> ...


This. The value of currency should be of greater concern when looking at causes of poverty, costs of living, etc. Minimum wage increases only help those on the very bottom rung of the ladder if said person is still employed, and the effects of monetary inflation haven't yet hit.

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## bunklocoempire

Spank congress and end the theft where it starts.  End the Fed.

*The Congress shall have power to...

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current coin of the United States;*



*
Why not just make the dollar "louder" as the Constitution demands?*

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## amy31416

I kinda doubt most thieves have jobs or that a boost of $1/hr in those that do would stop someone from getting something for free.

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## acptulsa

'...as a means to lessen the amount of theft that takes place'?  Is this OP implying that a government that spends less would cut taxes, rather than finding a way to spend more on something else?

Got a link?  _Any_ link, from _any_where, ever, demonstrating that tax cuts _ever_ happen?

I swear to God that progressives spend more time debating mythology than any Star Trek forum you ever saw...

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## eduardo89

> Nobody denies that an increase in MW decreases the need for public welfare dollars on the part of poor workers.


That's not true. The majority of minimum wage workers are actually young people (high school and college students) from middle class families.

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## Bryan

Boshembechle,

Why would anyone want to support theft? It is immoral, unsustainable, leads to violence, retaliation and a degraded society. Standing against theft however does not mean that you want to see poor workers, or anyone suffer. It would be a logically fallacy to think that being against theft mean that you supported the suffering of others, one can be against theft (and pro free price system) and also support poor workers with volunteering, charity and more.


Otherwise, I would disagree with the statement that an increase in minimum wage decreased the need for public welfare dollars.  It's not that simple, and would depend upon which group the poor worker was in and the timeline from the increase. Here are some possibilities.

Some workers may work for small mom-and-pop outfits, with an increase in minimum wage they can no longer afford to stay in business, and thus these people lose their job, which increases the need for public welfare dollars.

Some workers who work for big companies would lead to an initial decrease in the need for public welfare dollars, in this you are correct. However, over the long term, the big companies will adapt in a number of ways. In some cases, they will move jobs overseas, in other cases, they will raise prices since the mom-and-pop competition is gone, which leads to a lower purchasing power for the increased wages.


Minimum wage laws are lose, lose, lose. They are immoral. They are anti-free markets. They hurt the poor.

Again, please read and answer the questions in your other thread on this:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5515920

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## Keith and stuff

> Nobody denies that an increase in MW decreases the need for public welfare dollars on the part of poor workers. So my question is this. What is more important to you? Theft in the form of welfare or liberty in the form of a free price system in the wage market. You simply cannot have both. that is illogical.


Why do you want to see poor people lose their jobs/ not get jobs in the first place?

New Hampshire and Louisiana don't have general minimum wages.
The unemployment rates in NH and LA are 4.5%

Oregon has the 2nd highest minimum wage. It's unemployment rate is a very high 6.9%!

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## Henry Rogue

> Nobody denies that an increase in MW decreases the need for public welfare dollars on the part of poor workers. So my question is this. What is more important to you? Theft in the form of welfare or liberty in the form of a free price system in the wage market. You simply cannot have both. that is illogical.


If you don't like the hourly rates, you can try hanging Sheet Roc, payed by the squared footage. Then you will make as much as you are worth in a day.

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## heavenlyboy34

> Boshembechle,
> *
> Why would anyone want to support theft?* It is immoral, unsustainable, leads to violence, retaliation and a degraded society. Standing against theft however does not mean that you want to see poor workers, or anyone suffer. It would be a logically fallacy to think that being against theft mean that you supported the suffering of others, one can be against theft (and pro free price system) and also support poor workers with volunteering, charity and more.
> 
> 
> Otherwise, I would disagree with the statement that an increase in minimum wage decreased the need for public welfare dollars.  It's not that simple, and would depend upon which group the poor worker was in and the timeline from the increase. Here are some possibilities.
> 
> Some workers may work for small mom-and-pop outfits, with an increase in minimum wage they can no longer afford to stay in business, and thus these people lose their job, which increases the need for public welfare dollars.
> 
> ...


Didn't RP do this to an extent when he rationalized voting to get larghesse for his district? (to get some stolen booty back-which is kind of flawed because the money stolen just goes into servicing debt or spending programs rather than some big account/vault/etc)

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## acptulsa

> Didn't RP do this to an extent when he rationalized voting to get larghesse for his district? (to get some stolen booty back-which is kind of flawed because the money stolen just goes into servicing debt or spending programs rather than some big account/vault/etc)


No.  He didn't rationalize any such votes because he never voted for anything of the sort.  He did wrangle earmarks in budgets which he then voted against.  Some of those budgets he helped vote down, most passed anyway.  But he never voted for any of the earmarks he wrangled into budgets for his district.

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

The premise of this thread = duh.

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## cindy25

instead of increasing the MW by force, do it by incentive.  if a company pays ALL employees $15 per hour their corporate tax is 15%; if they choose the current rate they can choose that also

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## jllundqu

> Nobody denies that an increase in MW decreases the need for public welfare dollars on the part of poor workers. So my question is this. What is more important to you? Theft in the form of welfare or liberty in the form of a free price system in the wage market. You simply cannot have both. that is illogical.


Must be bogged down with all that Halo on the ol' XBOX....

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## PRB

> WRONG.
> 
> I deny that. Why? Minimum wage has repeatedly been shown to increase unemployement which puts MORE people on the taxpayer dole.


the solution to that problem is to take people off the dole.

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## Feeding the Abscess



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