# Lifestyles & Discussion > Freedom Living >  Building Your Home w/o A Mortgage

## andrew1229649

So I was doing some research on the steps one might take in the pursuit of building a home without going into debt. I don't want a "small house" either so you can keep those comments out. :P I came across a very inspiring article found here http://www.motherearthnews.com/Moder...Debt-Free.aspx The guy in the article says it took him about 3 years which sounds reasonable if you have a spouse. Even if it takes 5 years, It would be better to sacrifice for 5 years than end up paying way more than you borrowed for 15-25 years. 

Any thoughts, comments, or complaints would be great. 
P.S. No "small house" comments please, the things are not practical or made for some long term living arrangements.

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## TruckinMike

Start building it and don't look back. But if you are in a high property tax area I would suggest building it with camouflage in mind. A friend of mine lives in a barn/home and he saves thousands every year. Our homes are close to the same square footage but I pay over three times what he pays - we're in the same county and out of the nearest city limits by 3-4 miles.

TMike

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## The Goat

Sounds like a plan, go for it! I know a couple of people that did this. They really enjoyed it. Although one of their houses burned down less than a year after completion. (the fire wasn't a result of any thing he did wrong)  He hired a bulider to rebuild his house and was able to change the little things he ended up wanting different. Also had a chunk of change left over. Not a total loss but the insurance payment couldn't replace all the love that went into his work.


nice to see a fellow SCer, I'm in greenville.

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## roho76

I have been looking into this lately. I have wanted to use insulated concrete along with radiant heat to make a neat semi modernistic home on the cheap. The thing I like most about concrete is it's ability to withstand the weather. Even while building it. With stick framed homes you have to do all the underground. Then when it's time to frame it up you have to get it all enclosed and weather proof relatively quickly to protect it from the elements. I found 20 Acres of bank owned property ripe for the building that I'm about to purchase for dirt cheap and I plan to put up a concrete ranch. 

Anybody know about concrete building, forms, insulation, textures? I'm trying to decide weather to make the outside decorative pattern in the concrete or stucco over it or some sort of siding. Any people know about radiant heat buried in concrete? I basically want my heat and hot water to consume very little energy. 

Quite honestly I can see why affordable and energy efficient concrete homes aren't popping up everywhere but it seems builders are still stuck on building these extremely inefficient cookie cutter money pits.

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## driller80545

> Quite honestly I can see why affordable and energy efficient concrete homes aren't popping up everywhere but it seems builders are still stuck on building these extremely inefficient cookie cutter money pits.


This type of construction is very popular in Mexico and Central America for the obvious reasons. Very efficient and long lived.

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## fisharmor

> Quite honestly I can see why affordable and energy efficient concrete homes aren't popping up everywhere but it seems builders are still stuck on building these extremely inefficient cookie cutter money pits.


I blame code.
With strict building codes, the code doesn't become the bar, it becomes the target.
There are a limited number of targets, and stick framing is the most affordable, mainly because of economy of scale.  Code is well defined across the country, and you have your pick of unskilled and semiskilled laborers to put them up.
A concrete home is going to run you at least twice what a stick-framed home will run, and then you wouldn't be able to afford your dog$#@!-brown-with-pink-flecks granite countertops which are going to be passe' in six months but you can't live without.



I look into construction methods once in a while and my current favorite is cob.
The materials are likely free, it lends itself to much more organic shapes, and you can do things like radiant heating by just mudding utilities into the structure.
I think overall the idea of making a play-doh house appeals to the kid in me, too.
The only issue I have with it is that I am pretty against the idea of ranch homes.  With cob it seems like you're stuck doing a timber-framed type of arrangement.

Also, in a lot of the US the full basement seems to be the norm.  AFAIK the full basement evolved because the builder needs to dig down a certain number of feet in order to get to ground solid enough to support the house.  If you look at 100+ year old houses in those areas, there's maybe a 5-6' tall basement that's used as a root cellar or storage, but it's assumed it's going to be wet and dirty down there.
Then in the 50's-60's builders figured out if they go down a couple more feet they can get useable space out of the basement.
Of course, the second you stop paying attention to your gutters, it floods, and any finish work is ruined.  So they put in sump pumps to eject the groundwater, special sealants on the concrete form walls, french drains outside, etc.

My house has a basement that flooded, and I tore everything out, and spent $9000 on getting a trench busted through the foundation to put in a drain pipe and ejection sump.  And it largely works.
But if I was building my own house, I'd probably skip all that crap and just not have a basement.  I'd probably just go with timber framing for cob, and have the timbers sitting on gigantic footers, have the ground floor at least 1' off of grade so it's fairly impossible to flood, and skip the slab altogether.  Of course, some details would need to be worked out.
If such a thing was even possible for the locality's code, that is.

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## roho76

> This type of construction is very popular in Mexico and Central America for the obvious reasons. Very efficient and long lived.


It seems like a no-brainer to me. I heard concrete cost slightly more than conventional stick frame but when you add in the cost of energy savings over the matter of a couple years it more than pays for itself.

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## Barrex

> It seems like a no-brainer to me. I heard concrete cost slightly more than conventional stick frame but when you add in the cost of energy savings over the matter of a couple years it more than pays for itself.


In Croatia aerated concrete blocks(ytong) are popular. If you are going for "pure" concrete you should do a research on *moisture*(if you neglect it you will have big problems).

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## bwlibertyman

Concrete homes sound interesting.  I've often thought about building an inground house to help insulate it.

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## Shane Harris

As an architecture student I approve this thread. I would love to have a concrete house of my own someday (for practical and aesthetic reasons). I would even moreso love to live completely energy self-sufficient for obvious "off-the-grid" reasons. Finding someone to build outside of the norm is difficult though.

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## The Northbreather

> I have been looking into this lately. I have wanted to use insulated concrete along with radiant heat to make a neat semi modernistic home on the cheap. The thing I like most about concrete is it's ability to withstand the weather. Even while building it. With stick framed homes you have to do all the underground. Then when it's time to frame it up you have to get it all enclosed and weather proof relatively quickly to protect it from the elements. I found 20 Acres of bank owned property ripe for the building that I'm about to purchase for dirt cheap and I plan to put up a concrete ranch. 
> 
> Anybody know about concrete building, forms, insulation, textures? I'm trying to decide weather to make the outside decorative pattern in the concrete or stucco over it or some sort of siding. Any people know about radiant heat buried in concrete? I basically want my heat and hot water to consume very little energy. 
> 
> Quite honestly I can see why affordable and energy efficient concrete homes aren't popping up everywhere but it seems builders are still stuck on building these extremely inefficient cookie cutter money pits.


If your [pouring traditional ready-mix concrete delivered on a truck from a plant I would suggest renting SYMONS forms and forming yourself http://www.daytonsuperior.com/lists/...t.aspx?id=1313. 

Many places with very humid climates have been building with steel frames and concrete more frequently because of their resistance to expansion. They sometimes use styrofoam as forms for the concrete.

There are however many new alternative building methods that use cement mixed with other materials (papercrete ect) that may work for you depending on your local codes.

One thing to keep in mind is the use of passive solar heating especially if your making use of concrete. Make sure to orient your house and windows with the thermal mass (huge chunk of concrete) facing south for maximum solar gain (free winter heat).

As far as the radiant floor, yes you can buy kits and install them into concrete and they are much more efficient and comfortable than most other options but cost more in the install. The most efficient configuration (if you have a wood source)would likely be to have an outdoor wood boiler and solar electric to power its fans and pumps.

You might what to look into slipforming and cordwood walls as other ways to use cement and on site materials.

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## jkr

hempcrete!

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## Bruehound

I built a hyper efficient ferrocement home with steel framing. 8" deep wall assembly with spray foam insulation for R39 walls and R70 attic. 3 kW solar PV array and solar water heater for household hot water and also for a small hydronic heater. The hot water also powers a whole house desiccant wheel dehumidifier so we can keep RH at 45% and that allows us to keep air conditioner setpoint at 78-80 without loss of comfort.

Here in Louisiana, we get 80% in solar tax credits so even when factoring in in solar electric and solar water heating cost, we ended up with a net zero home for around $117/sq ft.

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## cstarace

> I built a hyper efficient ferrocement home with steel framing. 8" deep wall assembly with spray foam insulation for R39 walls and R70 attic. 3 kW solar PV array and solar water heater for household hot water and also for a small hydronic heater. The hot water also powers a whole house desiccant wheel dehumidifier so we can keep RH at 45% and that allows us to keep air conditioner setpoint at 78-80 without loss of comfort.
> 
> Here in Louisiana, we get 80% in solar tax credits so even when factoring in in solar electric and solar water heating cost, we ended up with a net zero home for around $117/sq ft.


Very nice, man! Wish I was that good with my hands.

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## FrancisMarion

Mr. Proenneke would have voted for RP. 




If you have the land you can build for way less than $100 per ft^2.  I would suggest taking a look at a bird building a nest...

All the materials are outside your door.  Just work em.  Don't pay for concrete, use stone for thermal mass or look into rammed earth depending on your climate.  If you are building without a mortgage, then you are building w/o a loan.  Forget the inspector, forget the code.  The code is a racket and a standard for those that don't know how to build.  Do you think vernacular architecture that has lasted generations would pass code?  Building codes have killed the beauty in residential architecture.

Don't be afraid to add on as you need it.  Let it take shape.  

Lastly, I would suggest using windows and doors placement as your wind tunnel to cool your home depending on your lattitude.  Air tight buildings for Air Conditioning is bad for buildings and you probably don't want to be dependent on it anyway.

Although I use power tools I can also build with nothing but hand tools and timber. I would be happy to suggest some methods for you to help you realize your goal.

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## roho76

I would like to build a concrete oval ranch house with a small cellar for a built in safe (I can get an old bank safe door for a great price) and tornado/bomb/Tri-letter agency raid shelter. I want really high ceilings on one side and slope back to 10' ceilings in the back. Something simple yet aesthetically pleasing and kinda modern and of course extremely energy efficient. 




> I built a hyper efficient ferrocement home with steel framing. 8" deep wall assembly with spray foam insulation for R39 walls and R70 attic. 3 kW solar PV array and solar water heater for household hot water and also for a small hydronic heater. The hot water also powers a whole house desiccant wheel dehumidifier so we can keep RH at 45% and that allows us to keep air conditioner setpoint at 78-80 without loss of comfort.
> 
> Here in Louisiana, we get 80% in solar tax credits so even when factoring in in solar electric and solar water heating cost, we ended up with a net zero home for around $117/sq ft.


Awesome home Brue. Is that stucco on the outside of your house or is that the natural concrete? You mention "spray foam insulation for R39 walls". Is that inside the concrete or did you stick frame walls inside and stick the insulation behind the drywall? I'm curious because I heard you don't want to build with un-insulated concrete exterior walls. That's why I was looking at ICF blocks but I like your method much better. Did you use forms or do you apply "ferrocement" like a drywall mud and add layer after layer?

Is that your passive solar hot water on the small building? How well does it work when the sun doesn't shine?




> Mr. Proenneke would have voted for RP. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you have the land you can build for way less than $100 per ft^2.  I would suggest taking a look at a bird building a nest...
> 
> All the materials are outside your door.  Just work em.  Don't pay for concrete, use stone for thermal mass or look into rammed earth depending on your climate.  If you are building without a mortgage, then you are building w/o a loan.  Forget the inspector, forget the code.  The code is a racket and a standard for those that don't know how to build.  Do you think vernacular architecture that has lasted generations would pass code?  Building codes have killed the beauty in residential architecture.
> 
> ...


I like this idea too. I want to incorporate as much natural materials as possible. Exposed wood beams, natural stone, concrete, steel beams/trusses. I actually wanted to cut down a whole tree and put it in the center of the house as a main support for the ceiling.

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## Bruehound

The exterior substrate that looks like stucco is the ferrocement. It gets troweled on like stucco but it's loaded with fibers so it is actually a structural stress skin which unifies the entire structure so any lateral forces are distributed throughout the framing. 

The steel framing of the perimeter is 6" studs and the company that fabricated my framing panels developed a storm resistant construction system whereby the perimeter framing is attached to footers 28 inches below grade *and then* the slab is poured so your framing is embedded 2 feet into the slab. It gets more than windy in these parts from time to time. PM me if you want info on the company i used for my steel framing system.

For the wall assembly. The trade off you make for high strength steel is that steel is very conductive and you have to mitigate heat transfer through thermal bridging. To accomplish this I used a variation of the "Mooney Wall" technique- essentially bumping out the interior of the perimeter framing with horizontal 2x2's(like furring). And even at these1 inch by 1 inch points of attachment I used an aerogel spacer for additional thermal break. The wall cavity is filled with 2  1/2 inches of closed cell sprayfoam and then we used spray in fiberglass and shaved it at the furring. As you can see before the sheetrock it creates a neat optical illusion with the housing seemingly floating and no visible vertical framing.





I also have two interior walls that are each 5000 lbs of Adobe block for thermal mass and also to naturally help regulate excess humidity. We get a good bit of that in the bayou. "Air you can wear"



Yes, the out building is our pump shed and water handling and all of our hot water storage. In this region, you can reasonably expect 85-90% of your annual hot water usage to come from the solar thermal systems. We run our solar heated water through a tankless propane heater so for the few days a year when solar resources are insufficient, the tankless kicks in.

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## andrew1229649

BrueHound, What is the cost to build a home like this? Cost per square foot?

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## roho76

> around $117/sq ft.


From his post above. 

Awesome thread is awesome.

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## roho76

@ Bruehound.

From the cross section it looks like very little of your exterior walls are concrete. Just the thin layer on the outside and most of the guts of your wall is the steel skeleton and spray foam insulation. Isn't the spray insulation very costly per sq/ft? I wanted to avoid using materials like drywall and wood studs. I don't want to build a concrete home so it looks like a regular stick framed house on the inside. I like the outside of your house but it seems like the interior is like a normal home. Is it not a good idea to use the ICF blocks and leave a natural concrete interior. The more I look into your moisture barrier comment the more I'm curious about sweating and moisture problems. I'm in Michigan so we get the extreme ends of the weather spectrum. I just like the look of exposed concrete. Kinda like this:

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## Bruehound

> From the cross section it looks like very little of your exterior walls are concrete. Just the thin layer on the outside and most of the guts of your wall is the steel skeleton and spray foam insulation. Isn't the spray insulation very costly per sq/ft? I wanted to avoid using materials like drywall and wood studs. I don't want to build a concrete home so it looks like a regular stick framed house on the inside. I like the outside of your house but it seems like the interior is like a normal home. Is it not a good idea to use the ICF blocks and leave a natural concrete interior. The more I look into your moisture barrier comment the more I'm curious about sweating and moisture problems. I'm in Michigan so we get the extreme ends of the weather spectrum. I just like the look of exposed concrete. Kinda like this


:

You are correct, the ferrocement is thin but very high strength. I've had service tech's from satellite company etc get frustrated because even their masonry bits were breaking trying to drill into the material. Yes, the house is more conventional on the interior finishing(though the floorplan is unusual and the adobe walls give it great warmth and character). I like the look of what you are going for, too. Just a matter of preference and what works in your area. I was building with design considerations of hurricanes and humidity. For additional humidity control, we use a whole house desiccant wheel dehumidifier. It uses solar hot water as an energy source to regenerate the desiccant material. There is a natural balance in that design in that the load demand for dehumidification tends to track closely with the solar resources available- i.e. longer sunnier days in summer when humidity control is crucial.

Cost of closed cell is not cheap but its coming down and varies by region. That is why we only used 2.5" and finished the cavity with sprayed in fiberglass. Anytime you use a depth of over 2" with closed cell it also will act as a vapor barrier.

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## Ninja Homer

This is what I'd like to build: http://www.undergroundhousing.com/

His construction methods are ingenious

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## roho76

> Mr. Proenneke would have voted for RP. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you have the land you can build for way less than $100 per ft^2.  I would suggest taking a look at a bird building a nest...
> 
> All the materials are outside your door.  Just work em.  Don't pay for concrete, use stone for thermal mass or look into rammed earth depending on your climate.  If you are building without a mortgage, then you are building w/o a loan.  Forget the inspector, forget the code.  The code is a racket and a standard for those that don't know how to build.  Do you think vernacular architecture that has lasted generations would pass code?  Building codes have killed the beauty in residential architecture.
> 
> ...


You might be interested in looking at Thomas Massie's site:
http://massiehouse.blogspot.com/

Talk about making a house from the earth.

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## FrancisMarion

> You might be interested in looking at Thomas Massie's site:
> http://massiehouse.blogspot.com/
> 
> Talk about making a house from the earth.


Aha!  "Thomas in Kentucky".  It is a small world after all.  Thanks for the link.

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## bwlibertyman

I really like the underground idea.  I've thought about building a house into a hill.  It is amazing that he built it mostly underground. Very cool. Good thread.

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## Toureg89

im not too much into construction, but being on vacation here in Morocco/Spain, both my family's several decade old 3 story house and my cousins apartment in Spain are built from what seems to be continoues slabs of concrete, and it keeps the buildings at least 10-20 degrees cooler in the heat. 

being a Florida boy with one of those "cookie cutter houses", its a HUGE difference in comfort.

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## Toureg89

asked my aunt, and the wall is made up of bricks, with cement/sand poured on the outside.

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## PaulConventionWV

> So I was doing some research on the steps one might take in the pursuit of building a home without going into debt. I don't want a "small house" either so you can keep those comments out. :P I came across a very inspiring article found here http://www.motherearthnews.com/Moder...Debt-Free.aspx The guy in the article says it took him about 3 years which sounds reasonable if you have a spouse. Even if it takes 5 years, It would be better to sacrifice for 5 years than end up paying way more than you borrowed for 15-25 years. 
> 
> Any thoughts, comments, or complaints would be great. 
> P.S. No "small house" comments please, the things are not practical or made for some long term living arrangements.


My dad wants to do this.  Unlike most of us, however, he has actually DONE it, since he's a construction contractor.  He has completely changed both houses we have lived in.  He's a carpenter, so I have no doubt he's capable.  The question is, how does someone who has no knowledge of construction do something like this?

What's more, he says he can do it from the top down, so as to create an initial shelter and then just make it so that it shelters more as he goes along.  If you go from the ground up, you don't have a shelter until you put the roof on.

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## ZzzImAsleep

Yeah, I would have no idea how to even begin a project like this. It seems way too advanced for someone with no knowledge to just start to tackle on a whim.

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## helmuth_hubener

Just buy an old mobile home.  You could have your own house for *single digits* per square foot, depending on your local market!  Seriously.

Division of labor.  Why build it yourself, when people will sell you one at such a ridiculous discount, as if it were a broken used car?

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## Kluge

> Start building it and don't look back. But if you are in a high property tax area I would suggest building it with camouflage in mind. A friend of mine lives in a barn/home and he saves thousands every year. Our homes are close to the same square footage but I pay over three times what he pays - we're in the same county and out of the nearest city limits by 3-4 miles.
> 
> TMike


That's absolutely great! The outside could look like a crappy barn, and the inside could be like a mansion. 

I re-did the exterior of the house I'm selling, and the city came along and valued it higher than I'm selling it for. 8/

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## tmg19103

> If you are building without a mortgage, then you are building w/o a loan.  Forget the inspector, forget the code.  The code is a racket and a standard for those that don't know how to build.  Do you think vernacular architecture that has lasted generations would pass code?  Building codes have killed the beauty in residential architecture.


Agreed. However, if you ever want to sell your house, the municipality can make you bring it up to code in order to do so - assuming they  keep on eye on these thongs, and if not, a buyer may rat you out.

If you build way out of code, you may have to rebuild the whole house in order to meet code in order to sell.

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## wistfulthinker

My folks built their own house debt free.  We lived in a tipi on the property during the summer building season.  Dad did a lot of demo jobs to get materials.  I think I spent a couple summers of my young life pulling nails out of boards.  We had an outhouse for a couple years and the house is funky, but still in great shape 20 years later.  We built in stages.  Once the basement was done, we would cook and so forth in there and sleep inside during the winter.  From a kid's perspective, building yourself in stages and from scrounged stuff was a blast.  We always had fort and tree-house material.  Our friends thought we were so lucky to have a tipi and cook so much over open fires.  We did this in Alaska, where it wasn't always pleasant outside.
A friend's family put up a Quonset hut and insulated really well.  They lived in it while they built a big house debt free in much the same way as my family.  When the big house was done, they had a quaint guest house.

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## PatriotOne

I knew a couple in the 90's who bought an acre of land and then parked a motor home on it and lived in it while they spent all their disposible income building the house (which was most of their income).  They had 2 young kids (6 and 8ish), 2 German Shepards, cat and hamster.  It took them about 2 1/2 yrs (with a combined income of ~ 75k) but they ended up with a 2 level house around 2500 square feet and no mortgage.  The home cost around 100k (doing a lot of the work themselves) along with their construction savvy friends) and was worth ~ 150k when it was finished.  It would sell for around 250k today.

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## Elwar

When I was in my 20s and single I started looking for land to settle down on figuring I would be getting married eventually.

The plan was to pay for the land and then build a garage with a living space upstairs and also set it up as a two or three car garage but close off one of the spaces for a living area as well. I figured the price would come out to about $50k for the garage and land. I had almost that much at the time saved up.

The plan was to live in the garage and then slowly build up the house from the ground up one step at a time as the money came available.

Then I got married and all of that went out the window.

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## roho76

http://www.budgethomekits.com/plans

Found this earlier while poking around the net. The largest unit they make is the Texan (of course, right?) 3,000sq/ft $39,000.

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## Kluge

> http://www.budgethomekits.com/plans
> 
> Found this earlier while poking around the net. The largest unit they make is the Texan (of course, right?) 3,000sq/ft $39,000.


That's pretty nifty--wish they had pictures of what the houses look like though.

This one: MacArthur » 1080 sq ft, at $18,790 is affordable enough to buy as an in-law suite and plunk down on your property.

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## Simple

Any opinions of the Earthships?

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## mtr1979

This family figured it out and discovered what is important.  Interesting video to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y15dxUZN3s

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## Kelly.

> Any opinions of the Earthships?


they are great if you can get free labor to do the tire pounding, but if you have to pay for labor it gets expensive quick.

i would rather build a rammed earth home, in the earthship style (passive solar / thermal mass). rammed earth lends itself to being mechanized (tractor bucket to pour into the forms, air tamper to compact). 

as for the design, im not a huge fan on the indoor biocells, id rather just have the green house type grow beds in the front that i control the water to. other then that i think they are a good design, especially as it relates to mortgage free / self reliant homes.

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## Elwar

> That's pretty nifty--wish they had pictures of what the houses look like though.


They had pictures on the main page.

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## Elwar

Also from their site: "Note that doors and windows are provided by customer".

From the looks of it, they provide the frame and the siding. This is about the cheapest part of a house even though it appears to be a large part of a house. You can put up one wall with about $100 worth of material. 

The big money comes in the form of the finishing touches. The windows, plumbing, electric, etc.

You also have to factor in the foundation and getting permits.

And when you go to sell the house, it is questionable whether you could list it as a modular, a prefabricated home or a construction built home. The price for the former on a resale is usually much lower.

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## Icymudpuppy

Polished Concrete is virtually impervious to the weather.  If you do polished concrete, you can expect your structure to outlast  you by multiple generations.  You've seen it at some athletic buildings in the locker rooms, probably.  That glass-smooth shiny concrete that is slippery as hell when it gets wet.  These days with modern concrete dyes, they can be made to look nice, too.

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## roho76

> That's pretty nifty--*wish they had pictures of what the houses look like though.*
> 
> This one: MacArthur » 1080 sq ft, at $18,790 is affordable enough to buy as an in-law suite and plunk down on your property.


I know, right? I was just amazed at how little you could pick up a 3,000Sq/Ft house.

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## roho76

> Polished Concrete is virtually impervious to the weather.  If you do polished concrete, you can expect your structure to outlast  you by multiple generations.  You've seen it at some athletic buildings in the locker rooms, probably.  That glass-smooth shiny concrete that is slippery as hell when it gets wet.  These days with modern concrete dyes, they can be made to look nice, too.


This is what I plan on doing (with the floor at least). I would really like to use concrete for the walls. I'm just wondering what the options and cost are for making it look decent as a living structure. Basically I don't want it to look like I live in a basement. I know there are molds that you put inside the forms to give it a styled look but I have to look into it a little more.

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## roho76

Passive vs. Active solar architecture. 

http://mhathwar.tripod.com/thesis/so...chitecture.htm




Shipping container home ideas:

http://residentialshippingcontainerp...%20You%20Start

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## helmuth_hubener

> http://www.budgethomekits.com/plans
> 
> Found this earlier while poking around the net. The largest unit they make is the Texan (of course, right?) 3,000sq/ft $39,000.


 But really, that's not all that "budget" when you can buy used mobile homes.

Buy 3 14X70s for $10,000 each and put them together.  There's your 3,000 feet, for $30,000.  And you don't have to do all the work and have all the trouble of essentially being your own general contractor putting together one of these kits.  No construction know-how necessary.

And if you _do_ have construction know-how, then instead just buy the trailers that need work for $5,000 or less.

This is not as romantic as the other ideas on this thread, I know, but it's far more practical.

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## kuckfeynes

This stuff is so interesting and definitely a pet project I'd like to pursue at some point.

A good buddy from NOLA with no construction experience bought, gutted, and rebuilt a shotgun by himself after Katrina. Really left an impression on me.

Are there any good forums dedicated to this kind of thing? I've done a bit of Googling but haven't found any that active.

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## Kelly.

> Are there any good forums dedicated to this kind of thing? I've done a bit of Googling but haven't found any that active.


http://countryplans.com/smf/index.ph...0&action=forum

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## Elwar

> This is what I plan on doing (with the floor at least). I would really like to use concrete for the walls. I'm just wondering what the options and cost are for making it look decent as a living structure. Basically I don't want it to look like I live in a basement. I know there are molds that you put inside the forms to give it a styled look but I have to look into it a little more.


My floor in my bedroom is polished concrete. The former owner was a contractor so he did it himself.

Basically the floor is just the poured concrete on the foundation. He then painted the floor a dark brown and then cut large grooves with some sort of saw to make it look like the floor was just a bunch of 3' tiles.

It looks pretty good but my wife complains constantly (for good reason) about keeping the floor clean. I have 3 dogs and she has to first use a vacuum to pick up the big stuff then go over it again to get the dog hair, then mop it. Then from there she still has not figured out how to get the shine to come back right other than buying lacquer and redoing the floors every once in a while. The best way that the shine could be done would be with one of those buffers you see at the grocery store. We do not have one of those. It literally takes her about 3 hours to do the 600 sqft floor.

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## Elwar

Actually, in another part of our ground floor I plan on pulling up the vinyl fake wood and doing this:

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## roho76

Bump.

I am going to start designing my new energy efficient home. The wife basically forced me to. I'm trying to do everything without a mortgage. Piece by piece.

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## tod evans

Lacquer absolutely does not belong on concrete!..

To get a serviceable shine that's fairly easy to maintain use plain old paste wax for furniture/floors.

If you ever put lacquer or polyurethane on concrete you'll loath the day you need to strip it...




> My floor in my bedroom is polished concrete. The former owner was a contractor so he did it himself.
> 
> Basically the floor is just the poured concrete on the foundation. He then painted the floor a dark brown and then cut large grooves with some sort of saw to make it look like the floor was just a bunch of 3' tiles.
> 
> It looks pretty good but my wife complains constantly (for good reason) about keeping the floor clean. I have 3 dogs and she has to first use a vacuum to pick up the big stuff then go over it again to get the dog hair, then mop it. Then from there she still has not figured out how to get the shine to come back right other than buying lacquer and redoing the floors every once in a while. The best way that the shine could be done would be with one of those buffers you see at the grocery store. We do not have one of those. It literally takes her about 3 hours to do the 600 sqft floor.

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## presence

Something to consider... there is often little or no property tax implication for "temporary structures" with wood foundations like pole barns.

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## Kluge

> Something to consider... there is often little or no property tax implication for "temporary structures" with wood foundations like pole barns.


Interesting.

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## Kelly.

> Bump.
> 
> I am going to start designing my new energy efficient home. The wife basically forced me to. I'm trying to do everything without a mortgage. Piece by piece.


how off grid / energy efficient are you trying to get?

may i suggest a passive solar, bermed earth home. i have seen a version of this built using rammed earth as the main walls. they had a solar hot water heater and ~2200 watts of solar panels, and were net zero. [wood stove for heat, propane for cooking/backup heating]

depends on your location and heating/cooling needs.

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## roho76

> Something to consider... there is often little or no property tax implication for "temporary structures" with wood foundations like pole barns.


It has always been suggested to me to pull the permit for a pole barn with dirt floors so it doesn't add to the square footage and therefore being taxable then after having it inspected pour cement then pull the permit for the concrete right before you sell, if you ever do. I'm sure most places you could argue that you're never going to sell it so the city doesn't need to make future tenants safe through building codes. I'm sure after you die the people who purchase the property must tear it down before they can occupy (???) but who knows. You also probably find a few city inspectors who'll go the full distance and take you to court and blah blah blah wasting tax payer money, ect. But they have the guns, right?

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## LibForestPaul

This is Very common in Europe. Many families build their own homes. A cousin may know drywall. Another may know electrical. Another may do plumbing. They all help each other build each others home. 3 yrs usually. w/o relatives, 5 yrs seems reasonable

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## LibForestPaul

Heard negative reviews regard earth. Though earth covered concrete domes seemed so far so good.

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## roho76

> how off grid / energy efficient are you trying to get?
> 
> may i suggest a passive solar, bermed earth home. i have seen a version of this built using rammed earth as the main walls. they had a solar hot water heater and ~2200 watts of solar panels, and were net zero. [wood stove for heat, propane for cooking/backup heating]
> 
> depends on your location and heating/cooling needs.


I'm assessing this right now. I just finished filling my house with LED lights and I'm monitoring electricity usage as we speak. I know the average home requires tons of energy consumption so I'm trying to gauge whether it's realistic. The draw from an oven, refrigerator, washer, dryer is enough to make it damn near a deal breaker financially but I also account for the safety from outside threats as well. Power outages are no more (if done right). I'm hoping that the savings from building it myself will offset the costs of the system and if I can get the draw from the house down then it might be reasonably priced. Solar water heating will also be used.

As far as the style/materials/efficiency standpoint, The house is going to be basically a trapezoid box made from ICF concrete walls (This will be the most expensive part of the house), concrete floor with radiant heating, and a sloping ceiling made out of insulated roof panels that starts high in the front and maybe 10' in the rear of the house, I scored a bunch of 15' foot beams from the Louisville Paper Company building in downtown Louisville, KY while I was down there the other day for $50/each. I plan on using earth up against the back of the house for the thermal mass and I will develop a grey water collection system from the sloping roof for watering the garden.


I was standing outside looking at my air conditioner run the other day and I was puzzled that the A/C unit was on the south side of the house that received the most sun all day long in the summer. Why wouldn't they put it on the north side of the home where it would be in the shade therefore for more efficient? I still don't have an answer (unless I want to start going down the energy company/building association conspiracy road).What I would like to do is make a home that can be built by anyone that is open source and available for free. Kind of like the low energy libertarian modular home model that is free and open to the public and anybody can build it.

In my opinion I don't know why it needs to be any more expensive than these $200,000 cookie cutter boxes we living in today.


EDIT: I'm also reading everything I can get my hands on that deals with passive homes. If anybody has any links to info I would much appreciate it.

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## roho76

> Heard negative reviews regard earth. Though earth covered concrete domes seemed so far so good.


I too have heard bad reviews about earth when it comes to roofs. I plan on just packing earth around the outside walls in the rear/sides.

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## tod evans

> EDIT: I'm also reading everything I can get my hands on that deals with passive homes. If anybody has any links to info I would much appreciate it.


Be sure to educate yourself on geo-thermal, closed loop heat pumps, depending on your areas cooling needs they can save you a chunk of money. 

An often overlooked source for fairly inexpensive 'lectricity are surplus military and hospital diesel generators most are rated in excess of 400amps 3-ph which permits an entirely different set of commercial appliances to be utilized. (used 3ph. equipment is regularly sold for 10-15cents on the dollar) 

Old railroad batteries have been the choice for DC storage for a long time, I'm not aware of a better alternative. 

Access to a cavern or deep cave is of course the most "passive" heat/cool source you'll find..

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## roho76

I plan on using radiant geothermal in concrete floors. 

I was curious about running a diesel generator with free veggy oil to power the home. You could just have a giant tank next to it that you could just keep adding oil to. I was curious how often I would have to replace the generator since it would provide all power needs. If this is not realistic maybe a small diesel generator to supplement a PV/Wind system. If I'm going to go renewable I'm going to go all the way. No grid tie-in systems. I'm hoping that my draw will be so low that no matter what I do it won't be that big of an expense. Definitely cheaper than anything I've got going on right now. 

Also Looking into DC freezer/refrigerators as well as low voltage lighting circuits. 

My load calculations before I switched to LED lighting averaged at 954.5 Kwh/month. I'm in zone 5 of the solar charts which means I get 4.5 hours per day of direct sunlight during the shortest day of winter which is what you want to base it off of. If I wanted to replace my electric source with PV it would require a 7500 watt system. Prices are $20,000-$25,000 for that large of a system. Since I don't need that large of a system in the house I'm designing, I'm assuming that when all is said and done I will be in the $15,000 range which isn't too bad. I would definitely like to use both solar and wind and then maybe a diesel generator backup for those calm/cloudy days.

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## angelatc

> It seems like a no-brainer to me. I heard concrete cost slightly more than conventional stick frame but when you add in the cost of energy savings over the matter of a couple years it more than pays for itself.


When I lived in Florida I lived in a concrete block house that was built in the 50's.  Obviously the goal there was to stay cool.  It had a terazzo floor, which is a decorative form of concrete.  I loved that house - it was sturdy, and while I couldn't go without AC the whole summer, I kept it to a minimum because the concrete insulated so well, and the floors stayed cool because the ground stayed cool.

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## tod evans

It's entirely possible you'll find maintenance on a larger generator is much less expensive per KWH than even the most efficient photo or wind system....

D/C storage will be your big expense and I haven't looked seriously at that since the early '80's.

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## helmuth_hubener

> D/C storage will be your big expense and I haven't looked seriously at that since the early '80's.


 Use the grid as your battery.  Just feed it in and pull it out.  The grid will be your own personal 100% efficient, zero maintenance, zero purchase cost, super-high wattage drain ability, infinite amp hour, infinite cycle battery.  You can still be running off solar, wind, generators, whatever you wish; you just skip the expensive and ridiculous room full of lead and acid.

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## tod evans

> Use the grid as your battery.  Just feed it in and pull it out.  The grid will be your own personal 100% efficient, zero maintenance, zero purchase cost, super-high wattage drain ability, infinite amp hour, infinite cycle battery.  You can still be running off solar, wind, generators, whatever you wish; you just skip the expensive and ridiculous room full of lead and acid.


For net zero or even positive generation this is a great idea, for SHTF issues it's not.

I only know what he asked about and little of that.

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## helmuth_hubener

Right, it just depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

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## Johnnybags

15k in the midwest? Why build one.

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## helmuth_hubener

Property tax.  

There's houses for even less in Detroit.  But then you have to pay the property tax.  And keep paying it.  It's recurring.  You end up buying the house over and over every few years; it's crazy.  Believe me, if it wasn't for the property tax, they wouldn't be going for 15k.

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## Zippyjuan

Even if you rent you are paying property taxes. That's included. That is not really an excuse. 

If you rent, you pay for a house over and over as well- a lot more times than via property taxation. If the house is paid for, the mortgage portion is gone and that cost never goes away as a renter. At current rates, it would take me 1000 months (83 years) for my property tax to be the same as what my purchase price was (rates will definately vary depending on where you live). If I was paying rent at current selling prices and rental rates, I would be be spending enough to pay for the place in 15 years in terms of rents (leaving off property taxes from both the cost of the property and the rental costs but ignoring interest payments on the mortgage).

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## helmuth_hubener

> That is not really an excuse.


 For what is it not an excuse?




> If you rent, you pay for a house over and over as well- a lot more times than via property taxation. If the house is paid for, the mortgage portion is gone and that cost never goes away as a renter.


 And if you buy, then you must tie up all your capital in purchasing some house, capital which perhaps could bring a much better return or go further towards accomplishing your life goals if used elsewhere.  It's plus-minus.  Renting can make a lot of sense and be a wise financial decision.




> At current rates, it would take me 1000 months (83 years) for my property tax to be the same as what my purchase price was


 The same is not true in Detroit.  This is why there are doubtless no $6,000 homes (including land) for sale in your area, and why in Detroit there are.

Of course, if you're willing to buy just the house and rent the land, then $6,000 homes are available all over.




> I would be be spending enough to pay for the place in 15 years in terms of rents


 And is 4.8% an acceptable rate of return?  People's answers will vary.

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## Zippyjuan

"Not an excuse" for buying or not buying a home since rent includes property taxes. Buying you will also face property taxes.  Neither action- buying vs renting changes the property taxes you end up paying. 

You are right that buying is not for everybody and depends on their situation.  If you can't afford it or don't plan to stay in one place for more than a few years, it is not a good idea to buy. And if rents are quite a bit cheaper than buying costs that is an argument too- but many places have seen rents rising (as more people have become renters) and the prices of buying have gone down so that gap has closed significantly. 

As for "tying up captial" the only capital which you would be tying up would be your down payment plus any amounts over and above what you would be paying every month to rent anyways.  If your rent would be say $1000 a month and your mortgage plus property taxes was $1200 a month, you would be only tying up $200 a month in capital which would have been available to you to invest in something else.  The rest is money you would be spending anyways.  During this time (making payments) you are building up value (equity) you are not getting from your rent payments- money offering a 100% loss as far as investment return is concerned.

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## Kelly.

> I was curious about running a diesel generator with free veggy oil to power the home. You could just have a giant tank next to it that you could just keep adding oil to. I was curious how often I would have to replace the generator since it would provide all power needs. If this is not realistic maybe a small diesel generator to supplement a PV/Wind system. If I'm going to go renewable I'm going to go all the way. No grid tie-in systems. I'm hoping that my draw will be so low that no matter what I do it won't be that big of an expense. Definitely cheaper than anything I've got going on right now. 
> 
> Also Looking into DC freezer/refrigerators as well as low voltage lighting circuits.


you might want to look into a lister type generator.
they are an old mechanical injector type diesel. 6hp and slow moving. they are designed to not have to be shut off. you can change the oil on them without shutting them off.
they will burn old oil/clean oil and everything in between. you can set up a radiator on it as well as a larger fuel tank.
mate that with a good generator and you should be good to go for awhile.

they real listers arent made anymore, but a version made in india is still available though. last i heard there was a guy in kansas that had a container of them, selling them for ~$2000 each. they are listed as air compressors, as the epa has deemed these are to polluting to import are engines.



more info here: http://www.generatorsales.com/order/...sp?page=L09912

imo, if you are going to be self reliant, a waste oil burning, power producing genset is a must.

good luck

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