# Lifestyles & Discussion > Personal Security & Defense >  The .50 BMG -- an absolute necessity in the future?

## GuerrillaXXI

Hi everyone. I'm new to the forum and decided to start posting with a topic that's been bugging me for a while. This post is a little long, so please bear with me.

I see a lot of freedom-minded individuals discussing firearms such as the AR-15, AK, FAL, etc. These are all great weapons to have, and I own a few myself. But my concern is that they may become close to obsolete in our lifetime, at least as far as defending against any future "hard" tyranny that may come our way.

As anyone who's been following the subject knows, huge strides are being made in body armor and helmet development. The current US military XSAPI plates can stop the M993 round (7.62x51 AP with tungsten carbide core) at muzzle velocity. A new helmet has been developed that can stop at least some kinds of rifle rounds (7.62x39 at least). The thermoplastics used for this helmet could easily end up being used to protect the legs, pelvis, etc. There's transparent armor out there capable of stopping rifle rounds (e.g., transparent spinel), and it might someday be used for face shields if prices can be brought down. You get the idea.

All the above personal armor technology (not to mention most other infantry technology, such as acoustic sniper detection) is currently being developed so that the federal government's soldiers can invade and occupy other countries with much less risk of casualties. (This allows the Powers That Be to keep the wars going longer and the military-industrial complex to keep bringing in the big bucks.) But its usefulness to the federal government certainly doesn't end there. 

I'm not going to mince words here. Since no major foreign power is going to invade the US as long as we have a nuclear deterrent, the only credible threat to our freedom comes from the US military and the police. Sure, if they are ordered to turn their weapons on American dissidents, a few will decline. Most will not. History has shown this repeatedly, from the Bonus Army to the gun confiscations in New Orleans by the police and National Guard after Hurricane Katrina.

Rest assured, any new infantry technology that hasn't already found its way into the hands of the cops will eventually do so. And again, don't think for a second that most of "our" troops won't turn their weapons on you the moment they're ordered to do so. They've done it before, and they'll do it again.

Finally to the main point. What's the one weapon that can actually pose a threat to those who are covered head-to-toe with the body armor of the future? The .50 BMG rifle _with AP ammo_. According to estimates I've calculated based on manufacturer data, a .50 BMG AP bullet can defeat the XSAPI plate at well over 400 yards, and maybe even beyond 600 yards (depending on barrel length). Furthermore, even non-AP rounds fired from this weapon, while not possessing unusual penetration ability, can cause severe blunt trauma -- especially to a helmeted head. 

For this reason, I _urge_ all people reading this who care about the true meaning of the Second Amendment (see my signature if you need a reminder) to get a .50 BMG rifle and some AP ammo as soon as you can -- even if you need to go into debt or sell some of your other weapons. Some companies even sell mag-fed .50 BMG upper halves for your AR-15 lower (Safety Harbor, Zel Custom, etc.). These are lightweight enough to be fired offhand. For a single-shot weapon, the Serbu might be a good choice. Shop around and get some opinions.

A bolt-action weapon might not be the best at close range, but you should avoid being close to an enemy who has you outnumbered, anyway. Also, would you rather have a bolt weapon that can kill the enemy, or a semi-auto that can't? If you can afford a semi-auto .50 BMG from Barrett, Serbu, or whomever, so much the better.

For ammo, shop around for loaded AP ammo or just AP bullets for reloading. Alternatively, solid brass match bullets should have good penetration capability, though probably not as good as AP. Those with the proper equipment could even manufacture their own AP ammo by drilling holes in the bases of solid brass bullets and inserting a piece of tungsten carbide drill rod into each. (There used to be one kind of commercial dangerous game bullet that was manufactured this way -- I think it was the Speer African Grand Slam -- but it's been discontinued. When loaded into a .458 SOCOM, it was capable of penetrating 0.25" of mil-spec armor plate.)

If a .50 BMG is out of the question, an alternative for shorter ranges might be any heavy "elephant" rifle, such as the .416 Rigby. Load it with solid dangerous game bullets. Again, those with the proper skills and equipment might even be capable of modifying such bullets into true armor-piercers.

If a government has even the _physical ability_ to take away your rights without a serious fight (even if the government hasn't already done so), then you don't have any "rights" at all -- only privileges. I'm optimistic that people here will take this more seriously than those on other gun boards probably would (_"What do you need AP ammo for? Do the deer in your area wear armor? Hardy har har..."_ )

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## t0rnado

Most US soldiers wouldn't fire upon US civilians, but Xe mercenaries and foreign mercenaries might. Look at the situation in Libya right now and you'll see that because the Libyan military refused to fire upon Libyans, Gaddafi had to pay mercenaries from surrounding nations to fire upon them. 

In response to the main theme of the thread, I'll stick to my .308 for now. A semi-auto .50 BMG is going to cost upwards of $5000, while a single shot bolt-action .50 will run you $1700+.

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## GuerrillaXXI

> Most US soldiers wouldn't fire upon US civilians, but Xe mercenaries and foreign mercenaries might. Look at the situation in Libya right now and you'll see that because the Libyan military refused to fire upon Libyans, Gaddafi had to pay mercenaries from surrounding nations to fire upon them.


I hope you're right, but the examples I gave above make me doubt that most wouldn't follow orders. US soldiers didn't even mind attacking their fellow veterans (the Bonus Army) when it was demanded of them, and I know of no National Guardsman who refused orders to confiscate citizens' guns after Katrina. Moreover, I have no doubt that 99% of the police will do whatever they're told, just as all of them willingly enforce today's unconstitutional laws regarding guns and everything else. And there's really no difference between the military and police SWAT teams except that one is used on foreigners and the other is used domestically.

I hope I'm being overly pessimistic, but in any event, I don't think we should _depend_ on troops to disobey orders. If we do, then our rights are still privileges, since they _could_ be taken away from us if soldiers decided to follow orders. Also, you bring up a good point about the contractors and mercenaries.

All in all, I think it's crucial that we all prepare to the maximum extent possible. We need to start really thinking hard about how we'll deal with these new technologies that could mean the de facto repeal of the Second Amendment.




> In response to the main theme of the thread, I'll stick to my .308 for now. A semi-auto .50 BMG is going to cost upwards of $5000, while a single shot bolt-action .50 will run you $1700+.


Price is certainly a problem with the .50 BMG, but with the way so many gun owners collect ARs and other expensive rifles (sometimes having 10 or more in the safe), I know they could pick up a ~$2200 single-shot or ~$2500 mag-fed AR-15 upper if they really wanted to. Those who truly can't afford it will just have to find a way to shoot around the armor -- if there are any gaps, that is.

If I couldn't get a .50 or an "elephant rifle," I think I'd focus on precision weapons for distance and a good 12 gauge for close range. The nice thing about the shotguns is that they're practically tailor-made for hitting small, moving targets. If an enemy isn't wearing a visor, 00 or #1 buckshot to the face ought to be a powerful deterrent. Alternatively, a 600-grain Brenneke slug (possibly modified with a tungsten carbide core) to the helmet ought to leave an impression to say the least. Even if it didn't penetrate, no one wants to have pieces of skull embedded in his brain.

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## Pericles

There was at least one unit that refused to confiscate firearms:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HRZfvtYlCY

The idea that the military will be enforcing tyranny seems widespread - the people I know who have actually worn uniforms don't seen to be on board with that.

As far as the need for .50 cal - it would be nice to have for many purposes, but there is a less expensive close substitute.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot6.htm

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## AFPVet

I guarantee that a .308 will still do the job. There are areas of the body which cannot be protected... Achilles' true heel. Current helmet technology will not protect against a .308. Even the ceramic plates will only work for a couple hits from the .308. If citizens are armed with semi-auto .308's it's game over.

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## Pericles

> I guarantee that a .308 will still do the job. There are areas of the body which cannot be protected... Achilles' true heel. Current helmet technology will not protect against a .308. Even the ceramic plates will only work for a couple hits from the .308. If citizens are armed with semi-auto .308's it's game over.


The ESAPI titanium plates might be able to take a MG burst of 7.62, but I'm not signing up to field test that.

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## AFPVet

> The ESAPI titanium plates might be able to take a MG burst of 7.62, but I'm not signing up to field test that.


Ouch... naw... I wouldn't either lol.

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## GuerrillaXXI

Thanks for the replies so far.




> I guarantee that a .308 will still do the job. There are areas of the body which cannot be protected... Achilles' true heel. Current helmet technology will not protect against a .308. Even the ceramic plates will only work for a couple hits from the .308. If citizens are armed with semi-auto .308's it's game over.


A .308 will do the job today, especially if one has a precision rifle that can be used to snipe at unprotected parts of the body. But what I'm concerned about is the _future_ -- possibly 10, 20, or more years from now. I think it's entirely possible that in our lifetimes we will see "Star Wars Stormtrooper"-type armor that's lightweight, covers the entire body, and will stop nearly all small arms rounds. One way this might be accomplished using new thermoplastic and/or ceramic composites reinforced with carbon nanotubes. There's a LOT of research being done on this sort of thing. It's definitely a cause for concern. It really does threaten to make the Second Amendment meaningless.

Even now, I'm not so sure the newest helmet (called the "Enhanced Combat Helmet" -- it's scheduled to be fielded by the end of the year, IIRC) won't stop a .308. All they say is that it can stop "7.62." Most likely that means a 7.62x39 at muzzle velocity, but it might mean something more, like a 7.62x54R. Whether that means AP or lead core is uncertain. I don't think the exact specs of the new helmet are public yet. In any case, if it can stop a 7.62x39 at zero distance, it can probably stop a .308 from a couple hundred yards out -- at least unless one is shooting AP.

As far as multi-hit protection is concerned, I know that those ceramic plates (at least those made with _today's_ technology) will break down after 3-5 hits. But I sure wouldn't want to be in a fight with someone who could take multiple hits from me while being able to put me out of action with a single bullet. Sniping in particular is a crucial aspect of asymmetric warfare, and its effectiveness really depends on "one shot, one kill." That's especially the case now that sniper detection systems are in the field and are continually being improved.

It's for reasons like this that I'd just feel a lot more comfortable if more of my fellow freedom-lovers had lightweight .50 BMG rifles with AP ammo. If that's not possible, I hope each person will be prepared with _at least_ one or more of the following:

(1) AP bullets pulled from surplus 7.62 NATO and .30-06 rounds and handloaded into even faster rounds such as .300 RUM and even .30-378 Weatherby. Solid brass bullets might also do the job.

(2) For close range, massive shotgun slugs, e.g., the 600-grain Brenneke Black Magic Magnum. It probably wouldn't even need to penetrate a helmet to cause lethal backface deformation. Imagine getting whacked in the head with a baseball bat -- who needs penetration? These could even be modified to be armor-piercing as mentioned above.

(3) Also mentioned above were heavy safari rounds with solid ("dangerous game") bullets. The .458 Win Mag might be a good choice, as I understand it lends itself well to subsonic loading. I think sound suppressors will also be very important in the future (good link), but that's another topic.

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## GuerrillaXXI

> There was at least one unit that refused to confiscate firearms:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HRZfvtYlCY


I'm glad to hear about them. They deserve a lot of credit for realizing that honor isn't something that's issued with a uniform. Those guys had it all along.




> The idea that the military will be enforcing tyranny seems widespread - the people I know who have actually worn uniforms don't seen to be on board with that.


It's a widespread idea because the military has been used against the American people repeatedly in the past. In addition to the examples already given, we could also add Kent State, Waco (where Special Forces at least played an advisory capacity), and others. If the police can't keep the serfs in line, the military is called in to do so.

It may be blasphemy to all the Toby Keith "überpatriots" out there, but the military isn't there to serve you and me. "Our" military is there to impose the will of the federal government by force of arms. Its personnel take orders from politicians who don't represent the common people, but only wealthy and powerful special interests such as the "defense" lobby. As such, it is by far the greatest threat to our freedoms. Thanks in large part to our nuclear deterrent, no foreigner can confiscate our guns or drag US political dissidents out of their homes in the middle of the night. The US military and police can.

This isn't to say that no one in the military would defect if given orders contrary to the Constitution or basic morality -- I think the Oath Keepers are to be applauded, and I'm sure there are others -- but if history is any indication, such personnel will be in the minority. I've even been told by some ex-Marine friends that attempts were made to instill in them a contempt for civilians. Nothing would make me happier than to find out I'm wrong, but I don't like leaving things to chance.




> As far as the need for .50 cal - it would be nice to have for many purposes, but there is a less expensive close substitute.
> 
> http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot6.htm


Well, keep in mind that the armored glass you see there is only rated for pistols. Ordinary shotgun slugs won't even penetrate Level IIIA soft body armor, let alone hard rifle plates. They're too blunt and too soft. There are cops who have survived direct chest hits with 12 gauge slugs due to their soft body armor. I do think that heavy slugs (especially Brenneke slugs) would kill through blunt trauma if they hit a helmeted head, though.

Sabot slugs are another matter. They often CAN punch through Level IIIA soft armor. They also might do a number on hard body armor if they were modified as described earlier (with a tungsten carbide insert added).

I suspect a lot of the same considerations apply to that Shiloh-Sharps. I'd much rather have a safari rifle shooting dangerous game solids, though. The more powerful the rifle, the heavier the bullet, and the harder the bullet's core, the better.

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## Bern

A few other things to consider:


> Since last year, The New York Times and At War have taken several different looks at insurgent arms and munitions in Afghanistan, which can yield information about how insurgents equip themselves and fight, and how the Taliban has been able to maintain itself as a viable force for more than 15 years. 
> ...
> Together the technical qualities of these rifles and the thinking behind them, along with the quality of their manufacture and the relative simplicity of their ammunition resupply, have helped a largely illiterate insurgent movement not just to exert its will on its own country, but also to stand up to the most sophisticated military in the world.


http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/...an-gun-locker/




> The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in the United States is 270 million
> ...
> The defence forces of the United States are reported to have 3,054,553 firearms
> 
> Police in the United States are reported to have 897,400 firearms


http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states

also, Ghandi showed that people can defeat the most powerful military in the world simply by choosing not to cooperate.

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## Krugerrand

> A few other things to consider:
> 
> http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/...an-gun-locker/
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states
> 
> also, Ghandi showed that people can defeat the most powerful military in the world simply by choosing not to cooperate.


Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong ... but that was up against a military that had the  decency to not outright slaughter entire populations.  We've seen that not every military has that decency.

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## osan

> Thanks for the replies so far.
> I think it's entirely possible that in our lifetimes we will see "Star Wars Stormtrooper"-type armor that's lightweight, covers the entire body, and will stop nearly all small arms rounds.


MAybe, maybe not.  There are some significant problems with designing such things.

First, how do soldiers pee and crap?  Is is all self-contained?  If so,  the apparatus has now become bulkier and heavier by necessity.

How about environmental controls such as heat and cool?  An entire legion of knights died at the Horns of Hattin during the second or third crusade.  They literally cooked in their armor in the desert sun.

How will these systems be powered?  More weight.  More bulk.

Barring a quantum advance in power systems, these sorts of things are not going to happen.

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## Anti Federalist

Well, I'm just not in a position to lay out 10 grand for outfitting myself with a semi auto .50 BMG

So, it's a moot issue right now, I'll have to stick to FN/FAL in .308

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## pcosmar

How well can armored humans run when set on fire?

I learned, when learning Tank hunting that if you heat up the outside, They will come out.

Research FooGas.

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## Pericles

Point 1: Two can play the IBA game -



As *osan* mentioned, this stuff has some weight. The load pictured is almost 100 pounds, and dropping the pack to go into action still leaves a good 40 to 50 pounds of combat gear. That stuff tires me out, and much quicker in warm weather. The Army recognizes that guys are maxed out on what can be carried, and even more so in the BCT org structure where most units don't have tracked vehicles anymore.

Point 2: The Army has 45 Brigade Combat Teams (there are about as many more in the Guard), and most of them are the Infantry BCT with no tracked combat vehicles anywhere in the brigade structure. The entire IBCT has 34 .50 cal machine guns mounted on combat platforms, 9 in the Infantry Battalion weapons company, and 8 in each motorized recon troop.

The weapons authorized in the Infantry company (IBCT)

*WEAPONS*
*COMMAND AND LAUNCH UNIT (JAVELIN)--------------------------------6*
*LAUNCHER GRENADE (M203A2)-----------------------------------------------20*
*MACHINE GUN .50CAL HB FLEX-----------------------------------------------1*
*MACHINE GUN 5.56MM: M249 SAW------------------------------------------18*
*MORTAR 60MM M170---------------------------------------------------------------2*
*MACHINE GUN 7.62MM M240B--------------------------------------------------8*
*PISTOL 9MM AUTOMATIC M9--------------------------------------------------9*
*RIFLE 5.56MM M4 CARBINE-----------------------------------------------------105*
*MODULAR ACCESSORY SHOTGUN SYSTEM XM26---------------------18*

The following weapons are in the mechanized infantry company of the Heavy Brigade (HBCT)

*WEAPONS*
*COMMAND AND LAUNCH UNIT (JAVELIN)--------------------------------9*
*LAUNCHER GRENADE (M203A2)-----------------------------------------------20*
*MACHINE GUN .50CAL HB FLEX-----------------------------------------------1*
*MACHINE GUN 5.56MM: M249 SAW------------------------------------------18*
*MACHINE GUN GRENADE 40MM: MK-19 MOD III----------------------1*
*MACHINE GUN 7.62MM FIXED RH FEED (M240C)-----------------------14*
*MACHINE GUN 7.62MM M240B--------------------------------------------------11*
*PISTOL 9MM AUTOMATIC M9--------------------------------------------------2*
*RIFLE 5.56MM M4 CARBINE-----------------------------------------------------116*
*SUBMACHINE GUN 5.56MM M231----------------------------------------------28*
*MODULAR ACCESSORY SHOTGUN SYSTEM XM26---------------------18*

In both cases, the .50 cal is mounted on the supply truck. The main advantage the infantry company has over the upstart amateurs is the automatic weapons for suppressive fire and the ability of the M240 to deliver a volume of lead at distance, but even an AR10 or M1A gives as much punch at distance as the infantry company has, and even us mere mundanes can obtain a M203 (we just can't get the grenades).

Point 3: The number of available BCTs is a finite number, assuming all were at C3 readiness or better (which is not the case). It would be reasonable to assume that BCTs available would be deployed in critical areas, until running out of BCTs, which for the entire US, will happen quickly.

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## archangel689

> Finally to the main point. What's the one weapon that can actually pose a threat to those who are covered head-to-toe with the body armor of the future?


FN five seven with the correct ammo. 

ps90 with correct ammo


M1 garand with correct ammo.

Shotgun with dixie slugs

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## AFPVet

> Point 1: Two can play the IBA game -
> 
> 
> 
> As *osan* mentioned, this stuff has some weight. The load pictured is almost 100 pounds, and dropping the pack to go into action still leaves a good 40 to 50 pounds of combat gear. That stuff tires me out, and much quicker in warm weather. The Army recognizes that guys are maxed out on what can be carried, and even more so in the BCT org structure where most units don't have tracked vehicles anymore.
> 
> Point 2: The Army has 45 Brigade Combat Teams (there are about as many more in the Guard), and most of them are the Infantry BCT with no tracked combat vehicles anywhere in the brigade structure. The entire IBCT has 34 .50 cal machine guns mounted on combat platforms, 9 in the Infantry Battalion weapons company, and 8 in each motorized recon troop.
> 
> The weapons authorized in the Infantry company (IBCT)
> ...


When I had to turn in my old alert gear, I bought brand new gear. Kevlar helmet, Level IV vest with ceramic plates and LBV. They let me keep my A and C bags, cold weather gear and some other stuff which was cool.

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## GuerrillaXXI

> Thanks for the replies so far.
> I think it's entirely possible that in our lifetimes we will see "Star Wars Stormtrooper"-type armor that's lightweight, covers the entire body, and will stop nearly all small arms rounds.
> 			
> 		
> 
> MAybe, maybe not.  There are some significant problems with designing such things.
> 
> First, how do soldiers pee and crap?  Is is all self-contained?  If so,  the apparatus has now become bulkier and heavier by necessity.


The butt and groin could be covered with removable flaps that hang down from the torso armor. In fact, such things already exist, but I think they're only rated to Level IIIA. A lot of soldiers also elect not to wear them, but that could change if the weight is reduced by newer and better materials.

The same is true of leg and arm protection. It already exists, but few people want to wear it because (1) it doesn't provide rifle protection, and (2) it's still too heavy. That could very well change.




> How about environmental controls such as heat and cool?  An entire legion of knights died at the Horns of Hattin during the second or third crusade.  They literally cooked in their armor in the desert sun.


How much of a problem that would be would depend on the climate and how long the armor had to be worn. But there are certainly ways to make armor more breathable.




> How will these systems be powered?  More weight.  More bulk.
> 
> Barring a quantum advance in power systems, these sorts of things are not going to happen.


I'm not convinced that such a suit would even need to be powered.

Have you heard of Troy Hurtubise? He's a goofy character who claims to have already developed a full suit of body armor. I'm not taking his claims seriously, mind you, but if you watch his videos, you can see that he doesn't need any air conditioning to operate in his suit, at least for short periods of time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-j7n0AnIGM

Now, what if a suit like that can someday be made that really can stop rifle bullets and that weighs a total of, say, 30 lbs? That's what I'm bothered about.

This isn't really a new idea. Ned Kelly's gang did something similar, though of course they didn't have access to any better material than steel, so their armor was way too heavy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_kel...ly_Gang_Armour

The point is that while present-day materials may make full-body rifle-proof armor seem distant, some surprising advances are being made in this area that might catch us off guard. Here are some examples of current research:

"A Kevlar killer comes to market"
http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/16/smal....fsb/index.htm

"Buckypaper"
http://www.fsu.edu/news/2005/10/20/steel.paper/

"Ordinary T-shirts could become body armor"
http://www.sc.edu/news/newsarticle.php?nid=876

"New Helmet Blocks Rifle Shots"
http://www.military.com/news/article...fle-shots.html

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## GuerrillaXXI

> Well, I'm just not in a position to lay out 10 grand for outfitting myself with a semi auto .50 BMG
> 
> So, it's a moot issue right now, I'll have to stick to FN/FAL in .308


Oh, I can't afford a semi-auto .50 BMG, either. But even a single-shot .50 BMG can be a deadly sniper weapon (the US protested Steyr's sale of several hundred HS 50 rifles to Iran several years back), and a good one can be had for around $2000. (I went with a mag-fed version for a little more.)

A FAL is a great weapon (wish I had one), and I'm still going to hang onto my ARs and AKs. But my humble-yet-earnest opinion is that each of us should have some kind of BIG gun that can at least kill with headshots even if a helmet isn't penetrated. A simple 12 gauge with very heavy slugs might be enough, but I wanted to go with the biggest thing I could get.

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## GuerrillaXXI

> Point 1: Two can play the IBA game


Oh yeah, it's a good idea for people who can get armor to do so. Alas, the Powers That Be can eventually restrict body armor sales to civilians.




> As *osan* mentioned, this stuff has some weight. The load pictured is almost 100 pounds, and dropping the pack to go into action still leaves a good 40 to 50 pounds of combat gear. That stuff tires me out, and much quicker in warm weather. The Army recognizes that guys are maxed out on what can be carried, and even more so in the BCT org structure where most units don't have tracked vehicles anymore.


It's heavy, but research is being done that could lead to better protection at greatly reduced weight. Remember, we're not talking about what can be done with today's technology, but tomorrow's. For example, the rifle-resistant helmet that was just developed (see link above) is actually _lighter_ than the previous helmet that only stops handgun rounds. Who knows how light they'll be able to make armor once they master the manufacture of carbon nanotube composites.

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## PaulineDisciple

> Well, I'm just not in a position to lay out 10 grand for outfitting myself with a semi auto .50 BMG
> 
> So, it's a moot issue right now, I'll have to stick to FN/FAL in .308


This,

and if you want a decent semi-auto .308 for around $500, get a SAIGA. You can also get 25 round magazines for the SAIGA. If you want to outfit a 5 or 10 man squad on the cheap, this is the way to go.

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## GuerrillaXXI

> How well can armored humans run when set on fire?
> 
> I learned, when learning Tank hunting that if you heat up the outside, They will come out.
> 
> Research FooGas.


Heh heh heh...a man after my own heart. Indeed, there have been some discussions on other boards about improvised flame weapons. I suspect that discussion of such things might not be allowed here, and it would take us off topic anyway. But rest assured, there are those who are also thinking along those lines. 

To be honest, I have a compassionate streak in me a mile wide, and I'd much rather shoot an enemy and kill him quickly than set him on fire. But if there's no choice, then there's no choice.

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## AFPVet

> This,
> 
> and if you want a decent semi-auto .308 for around $500, get a SAIGA. You can also get 25 round magazines for the SAIGA. If you want to outfit a 5 or 10 man squad on the cheap, this is the way to go.


I second this. If you can get an AR-10, awesome... if not, the Saiga will work just fine—and cost half the price. Keep in mind, the best armor available is only rated to stop levels, III, IV or V for a 'limited' time. Constant fire of .308/7.62 NATO will be starting to open up any body armor presently under development—especially under heavy volume.

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## madengr

Wasn't there some research in the 80's into flechettes?  Whatever came of those?

I know this is not PC, but the insurgents in the east make shaped charges with the equivalent of stone knives and bear skins.  Those will defeat any armor, short of maybe an Arbams tank.  It's hard to protect agaisnt a blob of metal travelling a 15,000 to 45,000 fps.  If you wan't to learn how to hold off a modern army in an urban environment, I would study their tactics, becuase they have been working for 8 years now.  Just sayin.

I suppose the ultimate round would be bullet with a tiny shaped charge in the tip.  Sort of like a tiny anti-tank round.  Of course someday, directed energy will make all this obsolete.

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## puppetmaster

> There was at least one unit that refused to confiscate firearms:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HRZfvtYlCY
> 
> *The idea that the military will be enforcing tyranny seems widespread* - the people I know who have actually worn uniforms don't seen to be on board with that.
> 
> As far as the need for .50 cal - it would be nice to have for many purposes, but there is a less expensive close substitute.
> 
> http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot6.htm


No They will be enforcing "peace" what side will we be on?
 Will we be called protesters or rebels?  Wait till the "Dream Act" fill our ranks with non US forces than all bets are off.

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## osan

> Research FooGas.


Wow, I haven't heard mention of that in a long time.  Yeah, good old foogas.

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## osan

> Research FooGas.


Wow, I haven't heard mention of that in a long time.  Yeah, good old foogas.

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## osan

> The butt and groin could be covered with removable flaps that hang down from the torso armor. In fact, such things already exist, but I think they're only rated to Level IIIA. A lot of soldiers also elect not to wear them, but that could change if the weight is reduced by newer and better materials.


Then they are vulnerable.





> How much of a problem that would be would depend on the climate and how long the armor had to be worn. But there are certainly ways to make armor more breathable.


Not really.  For example, when I am outside with nothing much but a Carhartt waste-length jacket on in 20* weather and I am doing some work like running barbed wire fencing, I sweat like a pig, and I am not a big sweating type of person.

Now extrapolate to a battlefield where you are running and jumping for your life and you are getting no reprieve.  Just how well do you think soldiers will fare after even only 8 hours of that?  The likely answer is that they will not.  If it gets too hot, some will die of heat stroke/cardiac arrest.  Some will take it off, guaranteed.  And so on.  

Breathable armor?  Maybe, but breathable does not necessarily mean it will sink away body heat fast enough.  The conflicting requirements of temperature control and protection pose serious engineering problems.




> I'm not convinced that such a suit would even need to be powered.


What is your basis for this position?


Now, what if a suit like that can someday be made that really can stop rifle bullets and that weighs a total of, say, 30 lbs? That's what I'm bothered about.

Try humping around all day in mortal combat with 30 extra pounds on your person.  Methinks you will not be a happy camper.  This was demonstrated most clearly in Viet Nam.  Soldiers with an eye to survival dumped most of their $#@! on the floor and went out with a rifle, ammo, knife and canteen.

As for the rest of your links, one needs to take claims with a grain of salt.  I've seen all manner of claims made WRT armor, ammo to defeat armor, and so forth that have not measured up to reality.  Nothing worse than finding out that one's claims that their vests will defeat 308 at point blank range are nowhere near truthful.

I think you're trimming your cuticles over nothing here.  I once worked on a project, however, that should have you $#@!ting in your pants.  Sadly, I am not at any liberty to speak of it, but I have before written that what was being developed was profoundly disturbing.  Far more so than any nuke ever developed.  There is $#@! out there of which you should be profoundly frightened.  This armor thing is not one of them.

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## oldsmobile98

> Sadly, I am not at any liberty to speak of it, but I have before written that what was being developed was profoundly disturbing.  Far more so than any nuke ever developed.


The Large Hadron Collider?



Seriously though, how am I supposed to be "profoundly frightened" of something if I don't know what it is?

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## archangel689

LMAO Jew Gun

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## JK/SEA

To 'control' via military, the L-RAD and microwave systems will be used, coupled with drones from above, thus cutting down on using actual troops with typical hand held weapons and armor, This is where some of the focus should be imho. That being said, i'd advocate for the 50 as well if you can afford one.

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## Pericles

> To 'control' via military, the L-RAD and microwave systems will be used, coupled with drones from above, thus cutting down on using actual troops with typical hand held weapons and armor, This is where some of the focus should be imho. That being said, i'd advocate for the 50 as well if you can afford one.


OK the AF has 256 drones, all controlled from Nellis AFB, and the Army has unarmed drones in the MI company of a BCT. The US is simply too large of a territory for a hostile force of any size (although a fully mobilized PLA might be interesting) to control. FACT!

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## Madly_Sane

> Wasn't there some research in the 80's into flechettes? Whatever came of those?
> 
> I know this is not PC, but the insurgents in the east make shaped charges with the equivalent of stone knives and bear skins. Those will defeat any armor, short of maybe an Arbams tank. It's hard to protect agaisnt a blob of metal travelling a 15,000 to 45,000 fps. If you wan't to learn how to hold off a modern army in an urban environment, I would study their tactics, becuase they have been working for 8 years now. Just sayin.
> 
> I suppose the ultimate round would be *bullet with a tiny shaped charge in the tip*. Sort of like a tiny anti-tank round. Of course someday, directed energy will make all this obsolete.


Fulminated mercury-tipped bullets, highly explosive on impact. You're essentially taking a hollow point and filling the tip with mercury.
I haven't seen any of these in real life or heard of them working, but I have heard of them being produced. I am going to try to find some more information on the subject.

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## w2992

this is all last resort planning.. Just get 60000 pct chairs elected is millions of time easier

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## Madly_Sane

> Fulminated mercury-tipped bullets. You're essentially taking a hollow point and filling the tip with mercury.
> I haven't seen any of these in real life or heard of them working, but I have heard of them being produced. I am going to try to find some more information on the subject.


Well, I did little more research.
It is Mercury(II) Fulminate and it does work.  Not exactly sure on how to produce such things, but I'll look into that as well.
Also, it's illegal.

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## Acala

If/when push comes to shove, what will matter is the spirit to resist.  Better hardware might make it easier.  But it won't be a deciding factor.

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## m6073

Ok.... bein in the military... yea it will take some rounds to bring down "Someone" with body armor.... But what you fail to understand most Class 4 vests (Class 4 Stand alone or inconjunction Class 3 plate with 3a soft panel) Can only take about 3 to 5 rounds 7.62 or 4 to 8 rounds 5.56. Thats if they aren't FMJ AP rounds then the rounds you can take significantly decrease. The best defense besides a buying a weapon thats used to kill tanks and Armored Personal carriers is to buy some class four body armor (Dragonfire from Pointblank is decent so is The IOTV from the same company, Go through CERAguard (the same people who make the Armor for M1A2 Abrams Tank)  to Get Standalone CLASS 4/5 XSAPI plates manufactured with silicone gel layers Designed to take 2 or more rounds of 12.7 mm AP (.50) Which translates to multihit capability in 7.62 FMJ AP with tungsten carbide Cores... and prob a half mag of 5.56, and 50plus 4.46mm Rounds used in the MP6 (New version of MP5 Submachine gun fielded to defeat common soft panel 3A body armor. or 100 plus 9mm rounds. This plate addition to your vest would be 5 pounds heaver per plate bringing you vest weight close to 25 pounds... but it would still be cheaper than dropping 5000 on a Barret .50. Get a Drum for your Colt M4/or AK and Wait... Get a Stryker Automatic shotgun with a drum if you dont like that option. Although dont sign me up to do the testing for .50 cal rounds in that vest, but it would give you an advantage above every other soldier or police officer short of them wearing a bomb disposal suit. You have to realize, if the situation depicted above would go down, having a single shooter in a fixed position with a large fairly non mobile weapon thats a recipe for you being overwhelmed and then dead.... Trade stopping power of a .50 cal for something that fires a 7.62 AP or 5.56 AP and be well protected and mobile... 

http://www.armorusa.com/Ballistic%20...0Composite.htm

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## osan

> Fulminated mercury-tipped bullets, highly explosive on impact. You're essentially taking a hollow point and filling the tip with mercury.
> I haven't seen any of these in real life or heard of them working, but I have heard of them being produced. I am going to try to find some more information on the subject.



Fulminate of mercury is very unstable stuff.  Knew a guy who made some in college.  He had it under a lamp to dry and it went off, relieving his dorm room of all its windows.  That was from a very small amount.

As if carrying it around were not hazardous enough, I suspect the acceleration of the bullet would cause it to detonate in the barrel, resulting in a rather bad day for the trigger man.

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## osan

> You have to realize, if the situation depicted above would go down, having a single shooter in a fixed position with a large fairly non mobile weapon thats a recipe for you being overwhelmed and then dead.... Trade stopping power of a .50 cal for something that fires a 7.62 AP or 5.56 AP and be well protected and mobile...


Nobody in their right mind is going to go lone-wolf sniping with a .50 for exactly these reasons.

The 375 Norma magnum stands to be a game changer.  It will fill that large gap between the .50 and .338s.  IIRC it should be packing something like 8 to 10 thousand foot-pounds at the muzzle.  That is a lot of hit - and good for 2500 meters and more.  Don't quote me on it - this is memory talking.

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## GuerrillaXXI

> Nobody in their right mind is going to go lone-wolf sniping with a .50 for exactly these reasons.


The .50 has been used for insurgent sniping with some success, though not really by a lone wolf (to my knowledge):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_A...2%80%931997%29

The weight and bulk of a .50 BMG can definitely be a problem if you're on foot as a lone wolf, and that might not be the best use for such a weapon (depending on terrain, etc.). But some .50 BMG rifles are being made that really don't weigh all that much, especially if you get a shorter barrel. For example, Serbu makes a single-shot with a 22-inch barrel that weighs 17 lbs. Safety Harbor makes a mag-fed AR-15 conversion upper that only weighs a little more. A 22-inch barrel will have enough muzzle velocity to put an AP round through just about any body armor (even an XSAPI plate) at up to a few hundred yards at least. On the other hand, the XSAPI plate will laugh at just about any .30-cal AP round at any significant distance -- even a hand-loaded AP M2 bullet pulled from a .30-06 round and put into a .30-378 Weatherby.

Of course, the hypothetical use of a .50 for sniping would usually be counterproductive overkill _today_, since one can simply use a much lighter and quieter rifle and aim for parts of the body that aren't protected by armor. But again, it's the _future_ I'm concerned with: ten, twenty, or thirty years from now. Soldiers and SWAT pigs wearing lightweight, full-body armor that can stop anything...exoskeletons...that sort of thing. TONS of research is being done on this stuff because the US wants to be able to engage in perpetual counter-guerrilla warfare overseas without enduring a politically unacceptable level of casualties. Eventually the very same technology used to fight against foreign resistance fighters _will_ be used against any future freedom-fighters here at home.

If people can learn to make their own tungsten-carbide core ammo, that would also be a tremendous advantage. There even used to be a tungsten-core dangerous game round: the African Grand Slam, I think it was called. Sadly, it's been discontinued by Speer or whoever was making it. When this 500-grain bullet was hand-loaded into a .458 SOCOM round, it went through .25 inches of mil-spec 46100 armor plate at 25 yards (this is according to the maker of the .458 SOCOM). And the .458 SOCOM isn't nearly as powerful as a safari round or something like a .338 Lapua. So there's a lot of room for improvement in civilian bullet penetration, but I think we all might have to do some homework. I know it can be done, though, and possibly with nothing more than a small lathe.

Here's an interesting patent (for the .408 Chey-Tac AP round) to give people an example of what's possible:

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=kxGpAAAAEBAJ




> The 375 Norma magnum stands to be a game changer.  It will fill that large gap between the .50 and .338s.  IIRC it should be packing something like 8 to 10 thousand foot-pounds at the muzzle.  That is a lot of hit - and good for 2500 meters and more.  Don't quote me on it - this is memory talking.


I hadn't heard of it, but it sounds interesting! If it uses solid brass spitzer bullets, maybe it will perform on a level with something like a .408 Chey-Tac.

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## GuerrillaXXI

I almost overlooked your earlier post, osan. Just a couple things:




> I'm not convinced that such a suit would even need to be powered.
> 			
> 		
> 
> What is your basis for this position?


Well, I've heard that Army researchers have come up with prototype armor suits that keep a gap between the armor and the body. The stated purpose was to prevent blunt trauma, but I'd imagine that this would improve air circulation as well. It's really just speculation on my part.




> Try humping around all day in mortal combat with 30 extra pounds on your person.  Methinks you will not be a happy camper.  This was demonstrated most clearly in Viet Nam.  Soldiers with an eye to survival dumped most of their $#@! on the floor and went out with a rifle, ammo, knife and canteen.


If they get those exoskeletons working and fitted with a decent, portable power source, weight will no longer be much of an issue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powered_exoskeleton






> As for the rest of your links, one needs to take claims with a grain of salt.  I've seen all manner of claims made WRT armor, ammo to defeat armor, and so forth that have not measured up to reality.  Nothing worse than finding out that one's claims that their vests will defeat 308 at point blank range are nowhere near truthful.


I do hope you're right, and I realize that a lot of claims of "Buck Rogers" gizmos have ended up as vaporware. But every now and then a breakthrough is made. I know they're planning to get the first rifle-resistant helmet shipped out to soldiers later this year, even though they've had a few hiccups:

http://kitup.military.com/?s=helmet&x=0&y=0




> I think you're trimming your cuticles over nothing here.


Like I said, I really hope you're right!




> I once worked on a project, however, that should have you $#@!ting in your pants.  Sadly, I am not at any liberty to speak of it, but I have before written that what was being developed was profoundly disturbing.  Far more so than any nuke ever developed.  There is $#@! out there of which you should be profoundly frightened.  This armor thing is not one of them.


Armor definitely isn't the only thing I'm worried about, but it's one of the biggies. Gunshot detection is another. I think in the future suppressors (commercial or homemade) and subsonic, heavy bullets will be an essential tool in the toolbox, but that's another thread.

Can you tell yet that I'm a worrywart?  But as corny as it may sound, I worry about these things because I care a lot about freedom, and not only my own. It's like a religion to me, and I spend a lot of time thinking about how terrible it will be if it disappears forever, which is what the Powers That Be seem to want.

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