# Lifestyles & Discussion > Bitcoin / Cryptocurrencies >  BitCoins

## reduen

Experts please weigh in...! You knew this was coming with Keiser pimping them....! Tell me the best way to enter this market please....

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## cubical

You want to buy or short?

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## ronpaulfollower999

Not sure who was nuttier, Keiser who kept pimping Bitcoin, or AJ who kept accusing Keiser of creating Bitcoin.

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## reduen

+1776!!

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## reduen

> You want to buy or short?


Either. I guess buying with the american dollar as long as they keep printing them...

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## brandon

Now is time to be looking for the best way to exit the market.

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## DonovanJames

> Now is time to be looking for the best way to exit the market.


I was eating those very same words at around $35 per coin....

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## Panpiper

Bitcoin makes for a great short term transaction medium. As a speculation however, it is an extremely volatile, and frankly dangerous crap shoot. Gambling this way is 50/50 on whether you win or loose money.

Yes, Bitcoin could take off and become more popular. And the US government could pass a regulation prohibiting competitive currencies like Bitcoin tomorrow, and you could see your 'investment' drop from $40. to $0.40 literally overnight. If you want to speculate, you are more likely to be successful learning the market for pork belly futures, and the like.

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## jclay2

Don't do it. Bitcoins were created out of thin air, just like fiat currency, and are a complete ponzi scam. Buy gold/silver/oil/real estate. Binary 0's and 1's are not stores of wealth. They are castles in the sky waiting to fall. Be wise and avoid these things like the plague. These things didn't even exist until a really smart scientist brought them to life in 09.

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## TaftFan

I'm listening to this now:

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## ronpaulfollower999

> Don't do it. Bitcoins were created out of thin air, just like fiat currency, and are a complete ponzi scam. Buy gold/silver/oil/real estate. Binary 0's and 1's are not stores of wealth. They are castles in the sky waiting to fall. Be wise and avoid these things like the plague. These things didn't even exist until a really smart scientist brought them to life in 09.


But there is a finite amount of Bitcoins.

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## ronpaulfollower999

I'd wait to buy any BTC until the panic sell over the chain fork stops.

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## NoOneButPaul

Stay away from Bitcoins... 

I would not be surprised to see them continue to spike but the concept is too perfect! The Fed will surely stop this madness once it really starts to compete. As i've said before they lack the anonymity of gold and silver and are much easier to confiscate/destroy. 

Make your money quickly I suppose and get the hell out. We're already being set up in the MSM for the reasons why this will be destroyed by the Fed...

-Fuels gambling
-Fuels drugs
-Iran trades with it
-North Korea trades with it

I wouldn't be surprised if none of those things are driving bitcoins and it's just good ole fashion fear... but ultimately the feds will destroy this $#@! because it's too good of an idea and can actually compete against their monopoly.

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## juvanya

Im no bitcoin fan, but how do you expect the government to ban a p2p computer program? Its not possible without extreme control of the internet.

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## Mordan

> Im no bitcoin fan, but how do you expect the government to ban a p2p computer program? Its not possible without extreme control of the internet.


you make it illegal. This will shut down the exchanges and basically cripple the bitcoin economy, in the USA at least.

Sure you can still use them but you will break the law. just like millions break the law downloading copyrighted contents.

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## TomtheTinker

Lol @ the law

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## Ignostic?

Alex misused the word "fiat" like I hear so much. Bitcoin is not fiat and will probably never be fiat. A lot of people mistake fiat for meaning that it has no "intrinsic" value. Fiat really just means by government decree. Gold can be fiat.

In Alex's defense, even Peter Schiff still has a problem understanding Bitcoin and he's generally considered a financial guru in the libertarian community. His business also involves the gold trade, which would be hurt by Bitcoin's widespread acceptance, so there might also be some bias there.

The problem most people have is with the idea of tangibility rather than intrinsic value. One doesn't have anything to do with the other. In fact, I would argue that nothing has intrinsic value. Nothing is valuable by its nature alone. Value is subjective. For something to have value there must exist a living thing that values it. That reminds me of a quote.

Physiologists should think before putting down the instinct of self-preservation as the cardinal instinct of an organic being. A living thing seeks above all to discharge its strength--life itself is will to power; self-preservation is only one of the indirect and most frequent results. -Friedrich Nietzsche

It could easily be said that power is the only thing with intrinsic value. The value of other things is only a measure of what power they can give you. Sometimes an idea is more powerful than anything tangible.

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## ronpaulfollower999

Peter Schiff has been a gold bug for his entire life. It's like expecting +70 y/o to work an iPad. Most aren't going to be receptive to even learning how to work it.

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## jclay2

> But there is a finite amount of Bitcoins.


Yes, we all understand, they are finite and held captive by the laws of math. I am not disputing that. The main problem is that they are just an arbitrary creation from nothing.

Lets just put it this way, if humans discovered a flash drive of bitcoins and documentation explaining the whole system 1000 years from now, there would be no value attached to the binary digits. The only thing that is driving bitcoin right now is speculation. Other than that, there is no value.

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## jclay2

> Alex misused the word "fiat" like I hear so much. Bitcoin is not fiat and will probably never be fiat. A lot of people mistake fiat for meaning that it has no "intrinsic" value. Fiat really just means by government decree. Gold can be fiat.


To me fiat and paper worthless currencies go hand in hand. Of course fiat doesn't mean fake. However, the only way a worthless fake paper currency can be innitiated is by fiat, backed by the force of a gun. Otherwise, their ponzi wouldn't surviive 5 seconds.

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## brandon

> Im no bitcoin fan, but how do you expect the government to ban a p2p computer program? Its not possible without extreme control of the internet.


Same way they shutdown online poker.  Raid all the exchanges and payment processers and seize all of the assets. You might still have 10k in bitcoin but if you are an American it will be nearly impossible to convert it back into USD.

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## brandon

> But there is a finite amount of Bitcoins.



That's kind of true but not really. They are infinitely divisible and they will always be able to be mined. The mine of bitcoins is never ending.

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## oyarde

> That's kind of true but not really. They are infinitely divisible and they will always be able to be mined. The mine of bitcoins is never ending.


Can you get a philly  cheese steak with bit coin  ?

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## QWDC

Have all the original hoarders finally dumped their coins or are there more crash liquidations to come? Don't want the price of something I own to go from 35 to 2 in a day while someone gets rich.

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## Ignostic?

> Yes, we all understand, they are finite and held captive by the laws of math. I am not disputing that. The main problem is that they are just an arbitrary creation from nothing.
> 
> Lets just put it this way, if humans discovered a flash drive of bitcoins and documentation explaining the whole system 1000 years from now, there would be no value attached to the binary digits. The only thing that is driving bitcoin right now is speculation. Other than that, there is no value.


All software is an arbitrary creation from nothing.  More money is made from the sale of video games than the consoles that they run on.  Value has nothing to do with tangibility.  Value comes from utility.  Bitcoin's value comes from people seeing it as useful or having potential utility in the future.  

Bitcoins can't actually exist on a flash drive.  They only exist on a network.  I get what you are saying, though.  You could find a flash drive with the keys to access some bitcoins on the network.  If that network still exists in 1000 years, then that flash drive would likely be worth an enormous amount.  If the network doesn't exist, then that flash drive would probably be worthless.  It's quite possible that money won't even matter at that point in time anyway.  I'm only really concerned with what happens within about the next 100 years.  If Bitcoin doesn't succeed, then something very much like it will.  

The only required properties of a currency are scarcity, portability, and transferability.  Tangibility doesn't even matter a little bit.  In fact, I would say tangibility is a hinderance to a currency because it decreases portability and transferability.  And tangibility is only moderately good at scarcity.  Bitcoin is better in every area than anything that exists as a physical object.  It is actually the fact that bitcoins are not "real" that gives them a lot of their value. It just wasn't until the creation of Bitcoin that anybody figured out a way combine scarcity with something that only exists as information.

There is speculation, but there is also investment in a new untested technology.  Like all such investments, it is risky, but if it succeeds, then those that got in early will gain the most.  A lot of people confuse that with a ponzi scheme, but that is how all investments work.

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## fr33

Down the conspiracy route...




^I don't agree with his accusations but I don't trust the bitcoin currency either.

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## Ignostic?

> Down the conspiracy route...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^I don't agree with his accusations but I don't trust the bitcoin currency either.


He tries to say you can't buy stuff with bitcoins and then goes to push silver.  There are definitely more things you can buy with bitcoins than silver.  You can even buy silver with bitcoins.  And it's a ridiculous amount easier to buy things with bitcoins than silver.  It is also easier to trust the authenticity of bitcoins received than it is silver.  Horses were the best form of land transportation for thousands of years.  Then somebody made something better.

And early investors gaining the most isn't what makes something a ponzi scheme.  Ponzi schemes don't offer a product or service.  Bitcoin does.  Microsoft rose to be the largest tech company in existence by selling something intangible.

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## Ignostic?

> Same way they shutdown online poker.  Raid all the exchanges and payment processers and seize all of the assets. You might still have 10k in bitcoin but if you are an American it will be nearly impossible to convert it back into USD.


By the time the U.S. government takes Bitcoin seriously, you won't want to convert it back to USD.

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## Ignostic?

Hey, look.  One ounce silver Liberty Eagles for 0.84 bitcoins each.  

http://coinabul.com/silver/index.php...lar-coins.html

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## muh_roads

naysayers beware...this will really blow your mind...

If you own Bitcoins, you don't actually "own" them.  What you own are more like serial numbers that the network recognizes as belonging to your wallet.  The closest analogy is like having a serial number belong to you on a gold ingot sitting in a vault.  Except Bitcoin isn't a single vault, it is in multiple vaults across the globe (as many P2P machines as there are computers mining) all running confirmations with each other.

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## muh_roads

> That's kind of true but not really. They are infinitely divisible and they will always be able to be mined. The mine of bitcoins is never ending.


Making a bitcoin divisible (which is currently only divisible by 8) doesn't devalue the coin.  If anything it makes it more valuable because more people can get involved as interest in the currency rises...more users = more demand = lower supply = higher spot prices.

Governments reduce the divisible amount if they are inflating over time...because the smaller denominations are worth less and less as inflation grows.  Hence the talk you might hear from time to time about getting rid of pennies...even nickles...  

Bitcoin is the exact opposite.  The more that get involved, the more deflation that happens.  And that deflation is currently happening at a rate faster than the new coins being produced.

People are hoarding them, and druggies will always need their fix and will continue to pay whatever the price is.  The price of drugs isn't increasing.  The price denominated in btc is shrinking.  Think about it.

Once 21 million are mostly mined out...the only thing left are fees collected from transactions.  But fees are not new coin.  Others pay the fee when transacting.  Nothing new beyond 21 million will ever be produced.  And many of the first 10 million have been lost forever...due to people formatting their hard drives or simply throwing their wallet files away thinking they would never be worth anything during the sub penny days.

Clearly the people throwing them away without thinking it through are not libertarians that don't have a grasp on supply and demand.  They also didn't see a need to private transactions...which was the real kickstarter.

They say there are more like only 3 million circulating.  Increasing the divisible amount beyond 8 will probably be needed eventually...

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## Natural Citizen

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152030.0

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## muh_roads

> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152030.0


Old news, the network repaired itself in less than 6 hours.  That is the beauty of the blockchain.  People can easily see what is going on and be on top of it.

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## ronpaulfollower999

> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152030.0


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...ems-crash.html

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## muh_roads

> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...ems-crash.html


LOL

zing.

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## mport1

Bitcoins may be the best way to take down the state.  I suggest reading up on them and spreading the word.  I think every liberty lover should be cheering them on.

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## muh_roads

> Bitcoins may be the best way to take down the state.  I suggest reading up on them and spreading the word.  I think every liberty lover should be cheering them on.


Indeed.

End the Fed?  Bitcoin = Ignore the Fed.  Hoping they give us a gold standard is a pipedream.  Bitcoiners will create their own.

$#@! 'em all.

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## Indy Vidual

> All software is an arbitrary creation from nothing.  More money is made from the sale of video games than the consoles that they run on.  Value has nothing to do with tangibility.  Value comes from utility.  Bitcoin's value comes from people seeing it as useful or having potential utility in the future.  
> 
> Bitcoins can't actually exist on a flash drive.  They only exist on a network.  I get what you are saying, though.  You could find a flash drive with the keys to access some bitcoins on the network.  If that network still exists in 1000 years, then that flash drive would likely be worth an enormous amount.  If the network doesn't exist, then that flash drive would probably be worthless.  It's quite possible that money won't even matter at that point in time anyway.  I'm only really concerned with what happens within about the next 100 years.  If Bitcoin doesn't succeed, then something very much like it will.  
> 
> The only required properties of a currency are scarcity, portability, and transferability.  Tangibility doesn't even matter a little bit.  In fact, I would say tangibility is a hinderance to a currency because it decreases portability and transferability.  And tangibility is only moderately good at scarcity.  Bitcoin is better in every area than anything that exists as a physical object.  It is actually the fact that bitcoins are not "real" that gives them a lot of their value. It just wasn't until the creation of Bitcoin that anybody figured out a way combine scarcity with something that only exists as information.
> 
> There is speculation, but there is also investment in a new untested technology.  Like all such investments, it is risky, but if it succeeds, then those that got in early will gain the most.  A lot of people confuse that with a ponzi scheme, but that is how all investments work.


+Rep





> Bitcoins may be the best way to take down the state.  I suggest reading up on them and spreading the word.  I think every liberty lover should be cheering them on.


Yes

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## kpitcher

You know bitcoin is doing well when a silicon valley venture fund jumps in. The downside is they took over the USA and Canada customers from MtGox but there are other exchanges and ways to convert USD to bitcoins. I'm a believer, I've bought things with bitcoins without any hassle. It's totally open source and you can't have some private banks affecting interest rates and supply. I don't see why anyone against the banks would be against them.

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## cubical

> Indeed.
> 
> End the Fed?  Bitcoin = Ignore the Fed.  Hoping they give us a gold standard is a pipedream.  Bitcoiners will create their own.
> 
> $#@! 'em all.


You don't need a gold standard. Just buy gold.

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## anaconda

> Same way they shutdown online poker.  Raid all the exchanges and payment processers and seize all of the assets. You might still have 10k in bitcoin but if you are an American it will be nearly impossible to convert it back into USD.


Is even necessary to convert?

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## anaconda

> All software is an arbitrary creation from nothing.  More money is made from the sale of video games than the consoles that they run on.  Value has nothing to do with tangibility.  Value comes from utility.  Bitcoin's value comes from people seeing it as useful or having potential utility in the future.  
> 
> Bitcoins can't actually exist on a flash drive.  They only exist on a network.  I get what you are saying, though.  You could find a flash drive with the keys to access some bitcoins on the network.  If that network still exists in 1000 years, then that flash drive would likely be worth an enormous amount.  If the network doesn't exist, then that flash drive would probably be worthless.  It's quite possible that money won't even matter at that point in time anyway.  I'm only really concerned with what happens within about the next 100 years.  If Bitcoin doesn't succeed, then something very much like it will.  
> 
> The only required properties of a currency are scarcity, portability, and transferability.  Tangibility doesn't even matter a little bit.  In fact, I would say tangibility is a hinderance to a currency because it decreases portability and transferability.  And tangibility is only moderately good at scarcity.  Bitcoin is better in every area than anything that exists as a physical object.  It is actually the fact that bitcoins are not "real" that gives them a lot of their value. It just wasn't until the creation of Bitcoin that anybody figured out a way combine scarcity with something that only exists as information.
> 
> There is speculation, but there is also investment in a new untested technology.  Like all such investments, it is risky, but if it succeeds, then those that got in early will gain the most.  A lot of people confuse that with a ponzi scheme, but that is how all investments work.


What a phenomenally well-written post. You are a very educated person.

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## anaconda

I'm late to the party on the bitcoin subject. One of the first questions that pops into my head is: Why aren't there many bitcoin copycats popping up (or are there?)? Thank you in advance.

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## muh_roads

> I'm late to the party on the bitcoin subject. One of the first questions that pops into my head is: Why aren't there many bitcoin copycats popping up (or are there?)? Thank you in advance.


There are...

Namecoin, Devcoin, Litecoin, Solidcoin, Ixcoin, Terracoin

If you read their white papers some of them clearly don't understand anything about supply & demand.

Some people say Litecoin is the silver to Bitcoin's gold.  But that doesn't really make sense.  Bitcoin is both gold and silver as Litecoin doesn't offer anything new.

The only one that actually offers something unique is Namecoin.  DNS can be hidden within them and concealed from ICANN.  I'm surprised Kim Dotcom hasn't created a service using Namecoins yet...

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## anaconda

> There are...
> 
> Namecoin, Devcoin, Litecoin, Solidcoin, Ixcoin, Terracoin
> 
> If you read their white papers some of them clearly don't understand anything about supply & demand.
> 
> Some people say Litecoin is the silver to Bitcoin's gold.  But that doesn't really make sense.  Bitcoin is both gold and silver as Litecoin doesn't offer anything new.
> 
> The only one that actually offers something unique is Namecoin.  DNS can be hidden within them and concealed from ICANN.  I'm surprised Kim Dotcom hasn't created a service using Namecoins yet...


If a trillion of these things pop up, is it like printing money endlessly?

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## kpitcher

There are a few bitcoin copycat attempts- at least I've seen them mentioned in bitcoin land and no idea if they are still out there. None of them offer any advantages over bitcoin. As bitcoin is open source most are a true copycat by ripping off the code with the exception of giving the author a chunk of coins hoping they get rich down the road. In order to create an economy for any currency there needs to be a value to it. Bitcoin has a large ecosystem and is growing. Any copycat would have to give people a reason to change.

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## muh_roads

> If a trillion of these things pop up, is it like printing money endlessly?


Devcoin mines endlessly I believe.  Which is why they aren't worth $#@! and nobody accepts them.

They all borrowed from the Bitcoin open source code.  They wouldn't exist otherwise.

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## muh_roads

> You don't need a gold standard. Just buy gold.


Gold standard makes prices fall when dollars are tied to gold.  Kind of difficult with all the paper manipulation going on.

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## anaconda

Ok..so..I see one has to "mine" for Bitcoins. And that the hardware & utility bill makes them costly to obtain. But that "pools" exist to defray the cost.. I think I saw a Google hit that someone had one going on over at the Daily Paul.

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## muh_roads

You don't need to mine to get bitcoins.  Just like you don't need to mine for gold & silver to get gold and silver.

I personally don't want to condone mining.  Not that I am against it.  That is just an entirely different industry.

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## ronpaulfollower999

> You don't need a gold standard. Just buy gold.


Funny/good comment I read on Zero Hedge:




> I don't think some people appreciate the evil genius of Bitcoin.  Allow me to help:
> 
> CLUELESS BORDER GUARD - So do you have any firearms, bonds or currency over $10,000 you need to declare?
> 
> SOME YOUNG GUY - Well I got this flash drive sir, but it's encrypted using 3DES on a secret Truecrypt partition.  Honestly, I don't remember if I got naked pics of my ex gf, my college thesis or ten million dollars on here?  Sorry, I forgot the password....
> 
> 
> 
> Bitcoin is a crypto-tunneling currency.  Information wants to be free.  Now try do that with bullion.

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## jclay2

Something to remember about Bitcoins. As rothbard states, gold became a medium of exchange only after it was utilized in a barter system. As more trade occured, people started to recognize the benefits of holding gold (easily divisible, easy to transport, supply mostly fixed) and thus demanded it more and more. Eventually gold's value was determined more based on its function as money then its utility and intrinsic desirability. You can not say the same about bitcoin. No one ever desired bitcoin for an end in of itself. That is why bitcoins, to me, have that castel in the sky effect. There is no "barter" value to start with.

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## hazek

> Ok..so..I see one has to "mine" for Bitcoins. And that the hardware & utility bill makes them costly to obtain. But that "pools" exist to defray the cost.. I think I saw a Google hit that someone had one going on over at the Daily Paul.


That is incorrect. 

Pools only help to lower the variance of mining bitcoins because the reward is received randomly. But you still carry the full and exactly the same costs as you would if you were "mining" solo. In fact being part of a pool you will learn less over time which is a price most are willing to pay for a more consistent stream of revenue.

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## hazek

> Something to remember about Bitcoins. As rothbard states, gold became a medium of exchange only after it was utilized in a barter system. As more trade occured, people started to recognize the benefits of holding gold (easily divisible, easy to transport, supply mostly fixed) and thus demanded it more and more. Eventually gold's value was determined more based on its function as money then its utility and intrinsic desirability. You can not say the same about bitcoin. No one ever desired bitcoin for an end in of itself. That is why bitcoins, to me, have that castel in the sky effect. There is no "barter" value to start with.


You are misinformed. 

Back in 2010 when bitcoins were worth less than a penny and weren't yet traded on exchanges people bartered them for other things, most prominently someone wanted to buy two pizzas in exchange for 10k BTC, which someone else decided to accept.

Why that someone else did so is a mystery. But I speculate, just as rare gold bracelets were interesting and in demand thousands of years ago simply because they looked pretty, so too bitcoins might have "looked" pretty to a geek who could appreciate the technological brilliance of the whole system. And it was enough such people in a small albeit online community that drove the initial demand for bitcoins which has now moved past the initial barter value and onto a medium of exchange value.

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## kpitcher

All your stated reasons for holding gold to be popular apply to bitcoins. It is easily divisible, super easy to transport - I have a smartphone app so I have instant access wherever, supply is fixed. At first it was near worthless as the acceptance was so limited. (Oh if only I had known about it then) The first transaction was a pizza for like 10,000 coins because they held so little value. More people started offering goods and services through bitcoin and the value related to currencies rose. As more people have kept using it the value in the currency exchanges has risen because more people find value to owning bitcoins.

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## jclay2

> You are misinformed. 
> 
> Back in 2010 when bitcoins were worth less than a penny and weren't yet traded on exchanges people bartered them for other things, most prominently someone wanted to buy two pizzas in exchange for 10k BTC, which someone else decided to accept.
> 
> Why that someone else did so is a mystery. But I speculate, just as rare gold bracelets were interesting and in demand thousands of years ago simply because they looked pretty, so too bitcoins might have "looked" pretty to a geek who could appreciate the technological brilliance of the whole system. And it was enough such people in a small albeit online community that drove the initial demand for bitcoins which has now moved past the initial barter value and onto a medium of exchange value.


If that is the best you can do, I don't think I am misinformed. Bitcoin was never utilized in a barter system on any type of scale. It was advertised as a currency and thats what started its use. Gold became a currency out of being the easiest item to barter (but initially it had a very real demand like any other product).

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## hazek

Bitcoin skeptics should really read this: Financial crisis revealed and resolved in the world of Bitcoin 




> Monday, March 11th saw calamity strike at the core of the Bitcoin system – over the last 3 years the number of users has increased exponentially, and the value along with it.  In the past we’ve seen large public thefts, but Monday’s event was fundamentally different...


Pay attention to this part especially:




> ...So here we are, less than 72 hours after the event, and we’re basically back to where we started.  The system is stable, the fork abandoned and the consensus reality once again agreed upon.  And all this with a basically volunteer development team who has no real ability to make anybody do anything, outside of telling them it’s a good idea.
> 
> Compare that to the ongoing crisis in currencies controlled by central banks, who have the unilateral authority not only to make all decisions related to their respective monetary policy, but also the ability to issue more bills at will, should the need arise....

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## hazek

> If that is the best you can do, I don't think I am misinformed. Bitcoin was never utilized in a barter system on any type of scale. It was advertised as a currency and thats what started its use. Gold became a currency out of being the easiest item to barter (but initially it had a very real demand like any other product).


Ok.. Bitcoin isn't for you, just move on and leave us be free.

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## jclay2

> Ok.. Bitcoin isn't for you, just move on and leave us be free.


The only reason I am so passionate about this, is because I see a very high likelihood that this ends in tears for all participants.

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## DonovanJames

> The only reason I am so passionate about this, is because I see a very high likelihood that this ends in tears for all participants.


As good practice, most people don't invest money they can't afford to lose. There may be a sigh of "we almost had it" but financial devastation and crying may be far off.

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## hazek

> The only reason I am so passionate about this, is because I see a very high likelihood that this ends in tears for all participants.


Perhaps if you offered sound logical arguments and sound empirical evidence others might care. Have you considered to get some programer to review the code for you so you'd have some evidence to support any of your claims?


EDIT: I would also like to draw attention to all my posts with regards to Bitcoin and their content. Unlike you I never even once suggested anyone should use Bitcoin. All I ever did is offer explanations and answers to questions. It's these answers and explanations that have lead many to research it on their own and after doing so decided to use it.

Unlike you, I don't tell people what to do. Unlike you, I offer them data and let them make up their own mind. Because, unlike you (I presume), I don't like others telling me what to do either.

So you see, there's a fundamental difference to what I'm doing to spread the awareness of Bitcoin and what you are doing to spread the awareness of arguments (although flawed) against it. And it might be a hint for you why it is that you're message is getting ignored while my message is starting to get increasingly more accepted and welcomed.

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## jclay2

> Perhaps if you offered sound logical arguments and sound empirical evidence others might care. Have you considered to get some programer to review the code for you so you'd have some evidence to support any of your claims?
> 
> 
> EDIT: I would also like to draw attention to all my posts with regards to Bitcoin and their content. Unlike you I never even once suggested anyone should use Bitcoin. All I ever did is offer explanations and answers to questions. It's these answers and explanations that have lead many to research it on their own and after doing so decided to use it.
> 
> Unlike you, I don't tell people what to do. Unlike you, I offer them data and let them make up their own mind. Because, unlike you (I presume), I don't like others telling me what to do either.
> 
> So you see, there's a fundamental difference to what I'm doing to spread the awareness of Bitcoin and what you are doing to spread the awareness of arguments (although flawed) against it. And it might be a hint for you why it is that you're message is getting ignored while my message is starting to get increasingly more accepted and welcomed.


Last post for me in this thread:

I don't need a programmer to review the code. I have never attacked bitcoin from the programming or theoretical side. It is sound in terms of the properties that make a good currency. I admit that. The problem that I have is that it is lacking innate value: People who don't know that you can exchange bitcoins for real money, give 0 value to them. You could offer tens of thousands of bitcoins for simple every day items and they would just laugh at you. Why? Because there is no value, in of themselves. This is my biggest beef and the main problem with bitcoin. The same could not be said with gold or silver. Bitcoin skipped the innate value staged and started out advertising as currency. 

As for spreading awarness, you are kidding yourself, if you think you are just providing information. If you were truly about information, you would make a real effort to present points of those against bitcoins.

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## hazek

> Why? Because there is no value, in of themselves. This is my biggest beef and the main problem with bitcoin. The same could not be said with gold or silver.


Wrong:








> As for spreading awarness, you are kidding yourself, if you think you are just providing information. If you were truly about information, you would make a real effort to present points of those against bitcoins.


I've done that plenty of times in the past two years of spreading the information. Did you review all my posts for the past two years? There's a thread more than 70 pages long where I provided tons of pointed arguments and rebuttals to all kinds of objections. But I can't very well do this as my job and answer anyone that ever comes along, you have the search function, if you really want to know, look it up.

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## Ignostic?

> Last post for me in this thread:
> 
> I don't need a programmer to review the code. I have never attacked bitcoin from the programming or theoretical side. It is sound in terms of the properties that make a good currency. I admit that. The problem that I have is that it is lacking innate value: People who don't know that you can exchange bitcoins for real money, give 0 value to them. You could offer tens of thousands of bitcoins for simple every day items and they would just laugh at you. Why? Because there is no value, in of themselves. This is my biggest beef and the main problem with bitcoin. The same could not be said with gold or silver. Bitcoin skipped the innate value staged and started out advertising as currency. 
> 
> As for spreading awarness, you are kidding yourself, if you think you are just providing information. If you were truly about information, you would make a real effort to present points of those against bitcoins.


Nothing has innate value.  Value comes from a living thing that has use for something.  A gold bar on Mars has no value because no living thing exists to give it value.  

Somebody who wouldn't accept tens of thousands of bitcoins for an every day item is an idiot.  They could easily take those bitcoins and convert them to dollars or gold if they wanted to.  Much easier than they could convert siver or gold and with lower commission charges.  Why would somebody be any more likely to accept gold than bitcoins?  It isn't as if you can buy things with gold.  You would have to convert it to dollars first.  You can buy things with bitcoins, though. 

Using an example of somebody that doesn't know you can exchange bitcoins is silly.  It takes almost no time to explain that to them.  If somebody doesn't know you can convert gold to dollars, then gold would have no value to them.  Most people have 0 value for a chunk of metal sitting in a drawer.  The value comes from their ability to trade that chunk of metal for useful things.  If they lack that knowledge, then gold has no value to them.  That goes for everything.  People value dollars because they know they can trade them for just about anything.  Dollars do have value because of that.  They just have a consistently declining value because of inflation.  You should really think more about what it means to have value.

Value doesn't come from a physical property.  How is it that you believe that value can be innate?  Do you believe that a gold bar on Mars does have value?  If so, then how?  

Value comes from utility.  Something doesn't have to exist as a physical object to be useful.

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## Ignostic?



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## anaconda

> That is incorrect. 
> 
> Pools only help to lower the variance of mining bitcoins because the reward is received randomly. But you still carry the full and exactly the same costs as you would if you were "mining" solo. In fact being part of a pool you will learn less over time which is a price most are willing to pay for a more consistent stream of revenue.


Ah, yes. Thanks.

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## fr33

A better investment than bitcoin or gold is land, food, and ammo.

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## juvanya

> you make it illegal. This will shut down the exchanges and basically cripple the bitcoin economy, in the USA at least.
> 
> Sure you can still use them but you will break the law. just like millions break the law downloading copyrighted contents.


You cant make it illegal. There are so many ways to circumvent that. Just like you said. If they wanted to do something. They would do it by now. Why hasnt China blocked it yet? Maybe because they cant.

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## juvanya

> Nothing has innate value.  Value comes from a living thing that has use for something.  A gold bar on Mars has no value because no living thing exists to give it value.


Gold reflects heat and conducts electricity well. Try again.

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## hazek

> Gold reflects heat and conducts electricity well. Try again.


So what? We can grow food in dirt, does that give dirt innate value?

All value is subject, all else are just facts of reality, meaningless without someone assigning them meaning.

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## muh_roads

> Gold reflects heat and conducts electricity well. Try again.


And if all we used gold for was its industrial use then gold would probably only cost $40/oz

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## cubical

> And if all we used gold for was its industrial use then gold would probably only cost $40/oz


Exactly. Gold's value comes almost exclusively from its 'store of wealth' property. Why does it have this characteristic? Well because the world's super producers throughout history have preferred it. And it is as simple as that. Outside of this fact, you can compare gold's qualities with other things, but they are just side notes.

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## muh_roads

> Exactly. Gold's value comes almost exclusively from its 'store of wealth' property. Why does it have this characteristic? Well because the world's super producers throughout history have preferred it. And it is as simple as that. Outside of this fact, you can compare gold's qualities with other things, but they are just side notes.


Until an actual collapse happens, I still prefer bitcoins to metals.

I own metals and I would never tell anyone to stop collecting.  But I want to actually profit as well and live a decent life.  Metals just really piss me off because of how exposed they are to paper shorts.  And because we aren't privy to geopolitics and the health of the petrodollar I am not going to waste my time worrying about when the collapse happens at this point in my life.  Bitcoin has a very awesome thing going on right now.  The utility value it trades for intrinsic can't be matched in our modern global & digital economic world.

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## bolil

ahem, uh, =we took this trip to garden grove,  smelled like lou dog inside the van, this aint no funky reggae party FIVE DOLLARS AT THE DOOR.

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## Fetou

> ahem, uh, =we took this trip to garden grove,  smelled like lou dog inside the van, this aint no funky reggae party FIVE DOLLARS AT THE DOOR.


Your posts have been seriously making me listen to Sublime albums all day.

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## Maverick

Hey hazek, I'm trying to get started on this bitcoin thing and I have no idea where to begin. If you can help me out, reply here or shoot me a PM. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

If anyone else knows how to get started, gimme some pointers? Thanks in advance.

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## matt0611

> And if all we used gold for was its industrial use then gold would probably only cost $40/oz


You're forgetting its uses as jewelry. 

Even if people didn't demand it for a storage of value I think it would still be a lot more expensive than $40 / oz.

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## muh_roads

> Hey hazek, I'm trying to get started on this bitcoin thing and I have no idea where to begin. If you can help me out, reply here or shoot me a PM. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> If anyone else knows how to get started, gimme some pointers? Thanks in advance.


I think the best thing to do for first-timers is to use localbitcoins.  https://localbitcoins.com/

It lets you meet with someone local in a public place, bring the amount of cash you want to purchase with and bring your smartphone.  You set all that up on the site beforehand anyway.  There are lots of techno geek libertarians willing to sell and teach you.  Possibly make some new friends too.

That way people can get in right away (or get out) and not feel like they missed a price.

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## well_met_sir

> You're forgetting its uses as jewelry. 
> 
> Even if people didn't demand it for a storage of value I think it would still be a lot more expensive than $40 / oz.


Why would gold be used in jewelry?  Brass, steel, and aluminum are not popular in jewelry.  Gold's value as a jewelry material comes almost entirely from its use for wealth storage.  Jewelry is a way to display wealth, a way to wear money.

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## tangent4ronpaul

> As i've said before they lack the anonymity of gold and silver and are much easier to confiscate/destroy.


Please introduce me to your drug dealer - he obviously has REALLY good stuff!

-t

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