# Start Here > Guest Forum >  Are the prospects for libertarians dim?

## RCee

Hello, while I'm not a member it seems that you are like minded individuals that are able to inform me. 

         In short, I'm asking this out of exasperation. It seems that everywhere I go people are vehemently supporting the idea that government control is the solution. This obviously is of concern in that I see this as huge obstacle for liberty and personal freedom. To give more context: I'm quite young (most of you probably have at least a decade on me) and live in a region of the states that has been dominated by the GOP (the American south) for fifty years, but I'm seeing differences between the established politics of the area and the current youth. Although a good number are neocons (not that that is a good thing), the majority of my peers favor Universal Healthcare, gun control, higher taxes, more subsidies ect. I would chalk this up to a regional change if it weren't for the internet and national news. It appears as if the economic progressives have won. The only silver lining I can see is that several social issues will be resolved with relatively satisfactory results. Other than that all I can see is a frightening future... my future.

 I know libertarian minded politicians have been getting more recognition, but I think that's the result of many members of the GOP trying to change stripes as the elephant enters its final years. 

          I hope I am completely wrong, but that's the impression I am getting nowadays.

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

If you live anywhere in the U.S., then your prospects are pretty dim.  America has been declining for 50 years.  Asia is up; we're down.  The increasing enforcement of order we see is the last gasp to save our glory days. 

I still don't think all is lost, at least for an individual.  So much in this world is out your control anyway, regardless of the climate, country, etc.  You still do the best you can with what you have in any environment.  The free fall of America actually makes for some interesting times too, so just enjoy the roller coaster as it drops!

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## Henry Rogue

You can still make a comfortable living, have a family,  but as far as Liberty. You have less of it than I did at your age and your children will have less than you. The trend will always be towards less Liberty when people can vote on your life and even if the public suddenly has a change in nature and chooses Liberty over handouts, the people in power will still want to plan your life through social engineering. Good luck and persevere, for it won't be the end of the world, it will just seem like it from time to time.

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## fr33

Libertarianism is better off than it was 10 years ago but it has a long way to go.

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## oyarde

> Hello, while I'm not a member it seems that you are like minded individuals that are able to inform me. 
> 
>          In short, I'm asking this out of exasperation. It seems that everywhere I go people are vehemently supporting the idea that government control is the solution. This obviously is of concern in that I see this as huge obstacle for liberty and personal freedom. To give more context: I'm quite young (most of you probably have at least a decade on me) and live in a region of the states that has been dominated by the GOP (the American south) for fifty years, but I'm seeing differences between the established politics of the area and the current youth. Although a good number are neocons (not that that is a good thing), the majority of my peers favor Universal Healthcare, gun control, higher taxes, more subsidies ect. I would chalk this up to a regional change if it weren't for the internet and national news. It appears as if the economic progressives have won. The only silver lining I can see is that several social issues will be resolved with relatively satisfactory results. Other than that all I can see is a frightening future... my future.
> 
>  I know libertarian minded politicians have been getting more recognition, but I think that's the result of many members of the GOP trying to change stripes as the elephant enters its final years. 
> 
>           I hope I am completely wrong, but that's the impression I am getting nowadays.


 Yeah , it may be dim , anyone knows govt control means failure

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## Number19

Welcome aboard. My best word of advice is to persevere - stay the course.

I've been in the liberty movement since 1979 and it's been a roller coaster ride, but I've never doubted my beliefs or the justice in our cause. But as slow as progress may seem, we have made progress. This is seen in the small, but growing, number of individuals elected to Congress who, while not pure libertarians, are in our camp.

At my age, I've narrowed the focus of my outreach to one message I'm trying to get across to those who are in the Tea Party movement. And this is: We must do more than "cut taxes, balance the budget, lower spending and trim regulations". What is required is the reduction in the size of government infrastructure - the bureaucracy, laws and regulations. While this seems obvious to us on this forum, it is not a message you hear in politics, particularly in campaigns. And it needs to be out there. 30 years ago you never heard the word "libertarian" mentioned in politics. Now, it is not uncommon. The next step is to increase political awareness that it is the power and scope of government which must be curtailed. Hopefully you'll carry this torch into the future.

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## heavenlyboy34

Welcome to our midst, comrade.  If you're good at maneuvering around regime restrictions, you'll do well.  If not, the next few decades will probably be more economically prosperous in Asia, latin America, and so forth.

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## Christian Liberty

> You can still make a comfortable living, have a family,  but as far as Liberty. You have less of it than I did at your age and your children will have less than you. The trend will always be towards less Liberty when people can vote on your life and even if the public suddenly has a change in nature and chooses Liberty over handouts, the people in power will still want to plan your life through social engineering. Good luck and persevere, for it won't be the end of the world, it will just seem like it from time to time.


This sort of gets at why I value civil liberties issues and foreign policy nonintervention more than economic issues, despite my conservative upbringing.  I can see how you can survive an obscene tax rate, it may be ridiculous and stifle creativity but as an individual you could conceivably do well enough that you'll still be well off and bring a decent amount of money home and maybe even get rich (barring absolute, total socialism of course.  I'm talking about semi-socialist mixed economies like the modern US or most European countries.)  But how are we supposed to "deal with" a government that doesn't respect freedom of speech or the right to self-defense?  What about one that will force you to fight in its military or spy on your neighbors in opposition to your conscience?  I can see how an individual could have positive prospects despite a lack of fiscal liberty, but it seems to me like we're absolutely doomed if we can't get civil liberties and foreign policy is out of control.

And yes, I understand that different forms of liberty can't fully be separated, but I see a big difference between being forced to pay more taxes and being forced to keep my mouth shut.  One I can reluctantly comply with, in the other case I'm an outlaw whether I like it or not.

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## Boshembechle

Yes. Libertarianism offers no economic security. People need (and want) security. Personally, I dislike libertarianism because of its support of discrimination against poor folks.

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## euphemia

> Yes. Libertarianism offers no economic security. People need (and want) security. Personally, I dislike libertarianism because of its support of discrimination against poor folks.


Except that a lot of us are poor folks.

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## ctiger2

> Yes. Libertarianism offers no economic security. People need (and want) security. Personally, I dislike libertarianism because of its support of discrimination against poor folks.


Huh, libertarianism has nothing to do with supporting discrimination against poor people. Sounds like you're an advocator of VIOLENCE. You desire some group of people to have "authority" over others so it can kill and steal from some people and give it to other people who this "authority" group deems entitled. Very MAFIA of you.

What the system needs is a big shock, then you'll see a clearer trend.

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## heavenlyboy34

> Yes. Libertarianism offers no economic security. People need (and want) security. Personally, I dislike libertarianism because of its support of discrimination against poor folks.


Libertarianism encourages charity and entrepreneurship-and discourages welfare/statism-the only things that can truly lift the poor out of poverty.

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## Origanalist

> Yes. Libertarianism offers no economic security. People need (and want) security. Personally, I dislike libertarianism because of its support of discrimination against poor folks.

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## heavenlyboy34

> 


They should find a way to show him mooching of off Hegel too.

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## acptulsa

> Yes. Libertarianism offers no economic security. People need (and want) security. Personally, I dislike libertarianism because of its support of discrimination against poor folks.


A rising tide floats all boats--_especially_ those of the poor.

Communism never fails to convert an economic ocean into a desert in the end.  And as both Russia and China have proven, entrepreneurship is the only cure.

You want the poor to continue to starve, but to not be self-conscious about it because _everyone_ but the politboro is starving.  Or you _think_ you want that.  If you had it, however, you'd realize how full of it you are.

Meanwhile, and contrary to what the naysayers are alleging, we are doing so well we've driven the neocon warmongers into your Democratic Party, further putting the lie to the notion that they have any more principles than Stalin did.  Have fun with that.

You don't make corporations to treat people like humans by encouraging government to force them to bribe lawmakers to spoil the corporations.  You force corporations to treat people like humans by getting government out of the way so the economy can grow so much that the corporations _need_ people--desperately--if they're to get more of the economic growth into their own pockets than all the new small businesses do.  This is obvious.  This is proven by history, time after time.  Why is this so hard for you to understand?

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## Number19

> Yes. Libertarianism offers no economic security. People need (and want) security. Personally, I dislike libertarianism because of its support of discrimination against poor folks.


Libertarianism offers the freedom and the opportunity to be secure. You are seeing a libertarian future through the eyes of our current culture and in fact you are partially correct. If libertarian policies are tried within the framework of our modern progressive/fascist political/social system, then these policies are likely to not produce the claimed results. We cannot know with certainty what directions society will take when given the freedom to choose any direction, but we do know from history that mankind flourishes when given the freedom to do so.

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## Ronin Truth

> They should find a way to show him mooching of off Hegel too.


 And collecting his Rothschild paycheck.

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## 56ktarget

Yes, almost nobody buys their kooky nonsense.

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## Ronin Truth

> Are the prospects for libertarians dim?


  Only slightly moreso at night.

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## Anti Federalist

> Yes. Libertarianism offers no economic security. People need (and want) security.


Well, what do you know, I actually agree with Bouillabaisse here.

He's right you know...people don't want freedom and liberty, in fact, they hate it.

They want to be fed, which is just another way to say "secure", entertained and exercise petty power over their fellow man. 

It does not matter that the "security" is fleeting and illusory, or that the power to boss their fellow citizens around is exercised ten fold by the government on *them*.

It's the siren song of a tyrant, and it has been fooling and waylaying masses of mankind for thousands of years.

Every Pooh-Bah, potentate, premier, prime minister, pasha or prince since the dawn of time has understood that simple rule: give the masses those three things and you will rule for generations.

The small minority of people that truly want freedom and liberty and ultimately, to just be left the $#@! alone, have always been persecuted, ridiculed and resisted.

However, this small minority always managed to carve out a niche for themselves somewhere, until being overrun by the busybodies.

Trouble now is, there is no place left to go on this prison planet.

It may take a couple of centuries until we are able to get up off this rock to establish a few remote outposts of freedom.

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## Anti Federalist

Blimp?

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## Christian Liberty

> Yes, almost nobody buys their kooky nonsense.


Why are you here?

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## kcchiefs6465

> Why are you here?


He's trying to get 56 thousand neg reps.

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## Tywysog Cymru

Prospects haven't been this good since before the Depression.

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