# Lifestyles & Discussion > Bitcoin / Cryptocurrencies >  Is anyone else just killing it trading bitcoins?

## Cshelton21

I put $490 through with bitinstant at Walmart, that cost almost 10 bucks but MtGox moves like + or - 2 or 3 bucks every 2 or 3 hours , I've made a little more than $75 on my initial investment.

I did lose like 40 bucks at first, but I earned it back and then some, I just cashed out when it hit 79.50, waiting for it to drop down a little again before I by back in. standing at 568.00.

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## IDefendThePlatform

Congrats on your gains. 

Im personally a fan of converting as much of my spare cash to bitcoin as possible, using it for as much everyday expenses as I can ( https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade ) and just holding onto the difference while the price goes up. 

Most traders I've seen that try to time the bitcoin market make money, but not as much as they could have if they had just bought and held, especially since the price keeps generally going up. 

Kudos to you though, statistically someone will be able to out-time the market, it might as well be you.

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## Nic

I don't think it is ever a good idea to try to time any market like that, but it all depends on your risk tolerance. Back when the stock market was at its bottom, I was day trading to the tune of having days where I made over $10k in one day, but the moment you get caught on the wrong side of a trade, you watch your gains disappear as quickly as they appeared.

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## The Goat

You got to know when to hold em, know when to fold em. XD

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## talkingpointes

Speculation... This won't end well.

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## gwax23

Im really interested in trading bitcoins. Dont know how or where to do it though. Any help would be appreciated

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## Romulus

blockchain.info

Create a wallet and go from there... it's really easy.

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## gwax23

Ill look into it.

How about this one:

https://mtgox.com/

Reputable?

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## devil21

This is different than the stock market how?  Sounds like just another form of gambling.

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## dannno

> This is different than the stock market how?  Sounds like just another form of gambling.


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...un-Has-Started

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ocation-Cyprus

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## whoisjohngalt

> This is different than the stock market how?  Sounds like just another form of gambling.


So is buying silver.  So is keeping USD.  So is not keeping USD.  So is using any currency.  So is not using any currency.  
If your suggestion is that it's a more volatile market for gambling, perhaps, but gambling is unavoidable.

In a macro sense every single action is a gamble.

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## dannno

> Ill look into it.
> 
> How about this one:
> 
> https://mtgox.com/
> 
> Reputable?


I'm not an expert myself, just getting into it.. 

Blockchain is a great app that will hold your wallet on your smart phone. That's what I'm going to use. Now the tricky part is getting some bitcoin into your wallet, I haven't gotten that far yet.

The cheapest way seems to be to go to localbitcoins.com and put in your zip code to find somebody who lives close to you who is selling them. The closest person to me is more than 60 miles away, so I decided that I would forgo the gas and time and simply wire USD from my bank to a different service. But if you did do that, you would meet up with the person, give them cash, and then you can use your blockchain app to transfer the bitcoins into your wallet without a service fee.

For wiring from your bank, the easiest/cheapest place I found is Coinbase.com .  I can't tell you about how legit it is, other than it seems legit and it seems very popular. It looks like you can hold your wallets in there and I am waiting for a bank transfer to go through at the moment. 

Once you get your bitcoins into coinbase account then you can put them into your blockchain wallet, it looks like you might even be able to store the same wallet under blockchain and coinbase but I haven't gotten that far yet.

I tried mtgox and while I didn't look at all of the services, the first wiring service meant signing up for 2 different services to get it into e-cash, the place that wanted to wire the money was charging like $25 + a 2% fee or something and so I tried to find another route. That's where I found coinbase. Anybody else have experience with coinbase?


EDIT: Bitinstant seems to be a great way to get bitcoins at your local Albertsons, CVC, Walmart, etc..

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## devil21

> So is buying silver.  So is keeping USD.  So is not keeping USD.  So is using any currency.  So is not using any currency.  
> If your suggestion is that it's a more volatile market for gambling, perhaps, but gambling is unavoidable.
> 
> In a macro sense every single action is a gamble.


Not so sure I agree with this entirely.  I do buy metals but not for trading for profit as the OP seemed to be touting.  Talking about when to buy in and when to get out and all that is the same as day trading the stock market or the paper futures markets, not a transaction to preserve wealth.  Some may be buying bitcoins as a hedge but this thread doesn't appear to be that.

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## ronpaulfollower999

^^ Coinbase is very legit, but lately, people have had problems buying BTC from them (too much demand). There is also BitInstant, where you follow the instructions on how to deposit cash at Walmart, Albertsons, CVS, etc, and depending which option you chose, the cash shows up in your MtGox account or Bitcoins will be deposited into your wallet at market price. See also this thread.

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## abacabb

Guys, I have $#@!coins on sale, who wants them?

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## Petar

I am buying bitcoins because I anticipate them to explode in price over the long haul. 

If some people want to try to time the market during the short term then that is their own business. 

Good or bad, it does not actually pertain to whether or not bitcoins are viable for their intended purpose.

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## dannno

> Guys, I have $#@!coins on sale, who wants them?


How much?

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## Zippyjuan

When everybody starts talking about buying something so they can make a "killing" on it- "it is only going to go up"- sounds like the start of a bubble.

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## abacabb

> How much?


1,000, $1 each, PM me if interested

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## abacabb

> When everybody starts talking about buying something so they can make a "killing" on it- "it is only going to go up"- sounds like the start of a bubble.


$#@!coins, like bit coins, are microcosms of fiat currency used worldwide. No imaginary means of exchange exists in the long term. A currency needs to be backed with something tangible and desirable. Unlike $#@!coins, which are only backed by $#@!.

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## Petar

> When everybody starts talking about buying something so they can make a "killing" on it- "it is only going to go up"- sounds like the start of a bubble.


Do you base most of your judgments on prejudicial bias?




> $#@!coins, like bit coins, are microcosms of fiat currency used worldwide. No imaginary means of exchange exists in the long term. A currency needs to be backed with something tangible and desirable. Unlike $#@!coins, which are only backed by $#@!.


Bitcoins are backed by anonymity, convenience, and security against central bank manipulation.

They are quantum leap forward as far as viable forms of currency are concerned.

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## dannno

> 1,000, $1 each, PM me if interested


That doesn't sound legit.

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## dannno

> $#@!coins, like bit coins, are microcosms of fiat currency used worldwide. No imaginary means of exchange exists in the long term. A currency needs to be backed with something tangible and desirable. Unlike $#@!coins, which are only backed by $#@!.


They aren't a microcosm of fiat currency, they are a reaction to them as a consequence of the technology we now have. It's proving to be a great way to hedge against uncertainty and avoid the system in general.

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## Ignostic?

> $#@!coins, like bit coins, are microcosms of fiat currency used worldwide. No imaginary means of exchange exists in the long term. A currency needs to be backed with something tangible and desirable. Unlike $#@!coins, which are only backed by $#@!.


And yet another person that doesn't understand what the word "fiat" means.

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## heavenlyboy34

> And yet another person that doesn't understand what the word "fiat" means.


Truth.

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## Zippyjuan

> Do you base most of your judgments on prejudicial bias?
> 
> 
> 
> Bitcoins are backed by anonymity, convenience, and security against central bank manipulation.
> 
> They are quantum leap forward as far as viable forms of currency are concerned.


I have heard and seen the same thing with stocks and with houses and with gold (twice now).  Is that predjudicial or just making an observation?

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## Petar

> I have heard and seen the same thing with stocks and with houses and with gold (twice now).  Is that predjudicial or just making an observation?


It's a selective judgement. 

You are looking at some markets and applying your findings to a separate market. 

Why don't you look at bitcoin itself and include its own specific properties within your judgement?

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## Zippyjuan

Yes, it is a judgement.  Bubbles can only be known with certainty after they have popped.

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## Petar

> Yes, it is a judgement.  Bubbles can only be known with certainty after they have popped.


Same goes for winning ideas whose time has come.

I guess only time will tell.

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## schiffheadbaby

Not to be a prick, but how is making 100 dollars "killing it"?

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## dannno

> Not to be a prick, but how is making 100 dollars "killing it"?


I don't think the OP meant that _he_ was 'killing it', just benefiting, while others who may have bought a lot more coin at $20 or $30 could very well be "killing it"

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## abacabb

> Do you base most of your judgments on prejudicial bias?
> 
> 
> 
> Bitcoins are backed by anonymity, convenience, and security against central bank manipulation.
> 
> They are quantum leap forward as far as viable forms of currency are concerned.


I agree, so are $#@!coins. $#@!coins have no central bank and they can be safely deposited in your imagination.

But $#@!coins are cheaper.

Seriously bro, I like ya, PM me and I'll even cut you a break on my $#@! coins.  There are only 1,000 out there, they're only $1 each.

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## abacabb

> They aren't a microcosm of fiat currency, they are a reaction to them as a consequence of the technology we now have. It's proving to be a great way to hedge against uncertainty and avoid the system in general.


So, are you going to hedge your bets and buy some $#@!coins or are you only interested in bitcoins because they're trendy?

$#@!'s been around since the dawn of time. $#@! will out live bitcoins, just you watch.

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## DonovanJames

> Not to be a prick, but how is making 100 dollars "killing it"?


Relativity

Think in % not in #

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## DonovanJames

Mob A: Hey guys! The Earth is actually round. We can use this new discovery to span the globe, increase viability of trade routes, help others have access to opportunities and circumvent the global monopoly of Government funded transportation. By making our own maps and trading those with other map makers, we can be free! I know it is unknown and unproven as yet, but the possibility is very real - we just need to start sailing.

Mob B: Round?! HAH! $#@! all that $#@! about Round - Flat has been here forever and always will be here. We've seen so many explorers crash their ships on rocks, icebergs and floating turds in that ocean. If you go sailing, you're going to wreck. I don't care what kind of new ship or fancy captain you've got. If you want to live, you'll stay here and just use the Government ships on the Flat routes and just wait... wait... wait... maybe the Government will make air planes soon that they will allow us to use on this flat, flat Earth. 

I see the absurdity in putting all hope and savings into bitcoins, but I also see an absurdity for those who denounce the technology vehemently. In the end, one faction will get to say told you so, one faction will have their ass showing. But in the struggle for economic freedom, why WOULDN'T you at least root for a viable chance?

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## muh_roads

> So, are you going to hedge your bets and buy some $#@!coins or are you only interested in bitcoins because they're trendy?


I'll feed the troll.

Bitcoins happen to be what caught on first.  If your $#@!coins came before Bitcoins and offered the same utility, then they would be @ $90 also.

Is your $#@!coin open-source?  If your $#@!coins offer something of more value than Bitcoin, then Bitcoin can just implement the same feature in the next version.

You seem to lack an understanding on why things have value.  Being able to wire transfer money out of an oppressive country that forbids wire transfers is a wonderful thing.  Good luck trying to transfer something heavy like metal outside of such countries.  Metal is meant for hoarding when everything falls apart so you can trade locally.  Bitcoin is for a globally connected economy.

Those that think intrinsic is the only thing that matters will always live the way they do.  And that is fine.  But I want to be involved with something that gains in value instead of just trying preserve value.

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## Cshelton21

I'm up 223 on my initial investment, as long as cypriot banks stay closed, I think I'll stay in. I'll pull out when they reopen for a day or so to see if that tanks the trade.

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## abacabb

> Those that think intrinsic is the only thing that matters will always live the way they do.  And that is fine.  But I want to be involved with something that gains in value instead of just trying preserve value.


First, -rep for the derogatory language.

Second, what I quoted is philosophically the real point. Nothing without intrinsic value ultimately retains value. All make believe currencies eventually become worth zero (like paper currency from Ming dynasty china isn't worth "2 cents in China money" today.)

So, as I see it, 5 years from now, my $#@!coins will be worth as much as bitcoins. They'll be worth $#@!.

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## brooks009

> Second, what I quoted is philosophically the real point. Nothing without intrinsic value ultimately retains value. All make believe currencies eventually become worth zero (like paper currency from Ming dynasty china isn't worth "2 cents in China money" today.)


The only things that have "intrinsic value" are food and water. Everything else has value because people want them at the current time (including gold). Gold will have as much value as Bitcoins if the $#@! hits the fan(nothing).

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## Petar

> I agree, so are $#@!coins. $#@!coins have no central bank and they can be safely deposited in your imagination.
> 
> But $#@!coins are cheaper.
> 
> Seriously bro, I like ya, PM me and I'll even cut you a break on my $#@! coins.  There are only 1,000 out there, they're only $1 each.


$#@!-talking coins ≠ actual bitcoins 

Maybe one day you will learn the difference.

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## abacabb

Interesting people call names and throw around neg reps, but they cannot even handle themselves intelligently in a dispute.

Gold at least has thousands of years of history behind it and at the very least, it make non-corroding jewelry and is used in microprocessors.

Unless Max Keiser will be in the history books, which I assure you he won't, his bitcoins will be worth no more than my imaginary $#@!coins.

But hey, I could be wrong and you can be rich. Don't get mad at me, laugh at all the money I'm missing out on.

Unless you want to buy some of my $#@!coins, I'm done with this topic. Have fun. I'm just trying to joke around, people are way to serious about these BSitcoins.

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## muh_roads

> Interesting people call names and throw around neg reps, but they cannot even handle themselves intelligently in a dispute.
> 
> Gold at least has thousands of years of history behind it and at the very least, it make non-corroding jewelry and is used in microprocessors.
> 
> Unless Max Keiser will be in the history books, which I assure you he won't, his bitcoins will be worth no more than my imaginary $#@!coins.
> 
> But hey, I could be wrong and you can be rich. Don't get mad at me, laugh at all the money I'm missing out on.
> 
> Unless you want to buy some of my $#@!coins, I'm done with this topic. Have fun. I'm just trying to joke around, people are way to serious about these BSitcoins.


Speak for yourself.  You didn't refute any of our points about Bitcoin and their utility value.

I still can't figure how I was name calling.  All I said was you "lack an understanding" of what gives something value...and you clearly do.

People give value.  It isn't bestowed on something from the gods.  If humans didn't exist gold would be pointless.  And if gold was only used for its industrial use it would probably only cost $40/oz.

If you think digital 0's have no value, you can give me all your US Dollars if you'd like.  You work for the same fiat we all do.  You clearly care about collecting $1000 in a system of centralized limitless portions for your $#@!coins.  Why?

You thought you were making a cute and intelligent argument with your "$#@!coins" when in the end all you proved to me is that you have no programming knowledge.  And that is fine, many don't. Use google before trying to make an attempt at sounding "witty".  If you could read the open-source code you would understand how awesome the system is and the potential to fight the banksters in a bloodless revolution.  It wouldn't be worth anything if others didn't see value in it.

Even if Rothschild made Bitcoin, the open-source nature that is visible for all to see proves there is nothing devious in there.

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## schiffheadbaby

> Speak for yourself.  You didn't refute any of our points about Bitcoin and their utility value.
> 
> I still can't figure how I was name calling.  All I said was you "lack an understanding" of what gives something value...and you clearly do.
> 
> People give value.  It isn't bestowed on something from the gods.  If humans didn't exist gold would be pointless.  And if gold was only used for its industrial use it would probably only cost $40/oz.
> 
> If you think digital 0's have no value, you can give me all your US Dollars if you'd like.  You work for the same fiat we all do.  You clearly care about collecting $1000 in a system of centralized limitless portions for your $#@!coins.  Why?
> 
> You thought you were making a cute and intelligent argument with your "$#@!coins" when in the end all you proved to me is that you have no programming knowledge.  And that is fine, many don't. Use google before trying to make an attempt at sounding "witty".  If you could read the open-source code you would understand how awesome the system is and the potential to fight the banksters in a bloodless revolution.  It wouldn't be worth anything if others didn't see value in it.
> ...


Do you think anyone would mine gold at 40 an ounce?  No way. Platinum mining costs in SA nearly mirror the spot price.

How much do digital things cost to mine?

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## umichmed

Bitcoin is gonna go down hard.. right now it's in a bubble

If you have actually traded bitcoins, you'll know how hard it is to get USD out of the exchanges. Easy to put USD in, hard to get out.

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## Petar

> Bitcoin is gonna go down hard.. right now it's in a bubble
> 
> If you have actually traded bitcoins, you'll know how hard it is to get USD out of the exchanges. Easy to put USD in, hard to get out.


I know of a local exchange that purchases bitcoins on the same business day.

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## jclay2

> Interesting people call names and throw around neg reps, but they cannot even handle themselves intelligently in a dispute.
> 
> Gold at least has thousands of years of history behind it and at the very least, it make non-corroding jewelry and is used in microprocessors.
> 
> Unless Max Keiser will be in the history books, which I assure you he won't, his bitcoins will be worth no more than my imaginary $#@!coins.
> 
> But hey, I could be wrong and you can be rich. Don't get mad at me, laugh at all the money I'm missing out on.
> 
> Unless you want to buy some of my $#@!coins, I'm done with this topic. Have fun. I'm just trying to joke around, people are way to serious about these BSitcoins.


Thank you. + rep

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## PaulConventionWV

I know I'm way behind the curve on this, but what the heck is a bitcoin?

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## PaulConventionWV

> Do you think anyone would mine gold at 40 an ounce?  No way. Platinum mining costs in SA nearly mirror the spot price.
> 
> How much do digital things cost to mine?


Most of gold's price comes from the fact that it's shiny and is used to make jewelry.

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## muh_roads

> I know I'm way behind the curve on this, but what the heck is a bitcoin?


Digital gold standard.  What it lacks in intrinsic value it makes up for in ability.  The ability to send money to anyone secretly in the world.  Only 21 million can ever be produced.  Each divisible by 8.

EDIT: You can buy real gold & silver with them thru the Tor browser in secret if one wishes.

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## jclay2

> Most of gold's price comes from the fact that it's shiny and is used to make jewelry.


That is infinitely better than a bunch of 1's and 0's. What utility comes from having 1 bitcoin in of itself seperate from the bitcoin currency system?

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## Jordan

A friend asked me about bitcoins yesterday. Weird. This usually only happens when any market is about to reach its top.

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## heavenlyboy34

> The only things that have "intrinsic value" are food and water. Everything else has value because people want them at the current time (including gold). Gold will have as much value as Bitcoins if the $#@! hits the fan(nothing).


A lot of truth there.  I reckon people will value weapons and shelter a whole lot too when TSHTF.  Do those have "intrinsic value"?

(btw, it's not fair to compare a medium of exchange with commodities.  You can't eat FRNs either, but that's not a good reason to have a few on hand.)

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## ronpaulfollower999

> A friend asked me about bitcoins yesterday. Weird. This usually only happens when any market is about to reach its top.


And everyone talks about the DJIA and S&P 500, so I guess they're at their top too.

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## Jordan

> And everyone talks about the DJIA and S&P 500, so I guess they're at their top too.


Right. Probably closer to a top than a bottom. But the S&P 500 is made up of 500 different high-quality businesses that generate cash. Bitcoin is a speculative bet on the future of an alternative currency that enables easy access to things that are illegal (money laundering, drug sales, etc.)

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## muh_roads

> A friend asked me about bitcoins yesterday. Weird.  This usually only happens when any market is about to reach its  top.


The estimate is that only 100,000 people are involved with Bitcoin currently.  That 100K of people pushed BTC to the price it is now.  There are about 1 billion people in the world that use the internet out of 8 billion currently.

There will only ever be 21 million coins to go around.

Food for thought.

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## Petar

> A friend asked me about bitcoins yesterday. Weird. This usually only happens when any market is about to reach its top.


You haven't been around for that long Jordan, and you definitely have not seen everything that the future has to offer yet.




> Right. Probably closer to a top than a bottom. But the S&P 500 is made up of 500 different high-quality businesses that generate cash. Bitcoin is a speculative bet on the future of an alternative currency that enables easy access to things that are illegal (money laundering, drug sales, etc.)


Do you ever think about who generates the cash that these "high quality" businesses "generate"?

People are sick of having their savings inflated away by bailouts, be prepared for the exodus that is coming.

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## Jordan

> You haven't been around for that long Jordan, and you definitely have not seen everything that the future has to offer yet.
> 
> Do you ever think about who generates the cash that these "high quality" businesses "generate"?
> 
> People are sick of having their savings inflated away by bailouts, be prepared for the exodus that is coming.


I've been around long enough to know that hopes and dreams are often crushed, that the government doesn't like the idea of an anonymous currency, and that investment interest typically peaks at the same time a market reaches a top. I hate to be the bitcoin bear, but I just don't look at it through rose colored glasses. Do you not find similarities between the number of bitcoins threads here and the number of silver threads when it bubbled to $50/ounce? Once people think that "this time is it" they start plowing every dime they have into a market, only to see that markets can go down just as easily as they can go up.

I recognize that I could be wrong, but so far, placing your money AGAINST the status quo has made far more many people broke than it has ever made rich.

People aren't sick of bailouts. Households love participating in the stock market rallies. We're all Keynesians now!

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## Petar

> I've been around long enough to know that hopes and dreams are often crushed, that the government doesn't like the idea of an anonymous currency, and that investment interest typically peaks at the same time a market reaches a top. I hate to be the bitcoin bear, but I just don't look at it through rose colored glasses. Do you not find similarities between the number of bitcoins threads here and the number of silver threads when it bubbled to $50/ounce? Once people think that "this time is it" they start plowing every dime they have into a market, only to see that markets can go down just as easily as they can go up.
> 
> I recognize that I could be wrong, but so far, placing your money AGAINST the status quo has made far more many people broke than it has ever made rich.
> 
> People aren't sick of bailouts. Households love participating in the stock market rallies. We're all Keynesians now!


The status quo is this insane idea that the fed can just build an ever expanding house of cards and never expect it to tumble. 

What is your exit strategy for that eventuality? 

Spaniards are currently buying a lot of BTC.

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## Jordan

> The status quo is this insane idea that the fed can just build an ever expanding house of cards and never expect it to tumble. 
> 
> What is your exit strategy for that eventuality? 
> 
> Spaniards are currently buying a lot of BTC.


I don't need an exit strategy when the government, through policy, is on my side. Bernanke's great at destroying the value of money while driving up the value of cash flowing assets.

I don't have a lot of exposure to cash, so no reason to worry about it.

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## Petar

> I don't need an exit strategy when the government, through policy, is on my side. Bernanke's great at destroying the value of money while driving up the value of cash flowing assets.
> 
> I don't have a lot of exposure to cash, so no reason to worry about it.


Oh, you must be one of those elites who are gonna be at the front of all the breadlines then. 

Well, my plan is to productive within whatever semblance of a real economy might be left.

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## Jordan

> Oh, you must be one of those elites who are gonna be at the front of all the breadlines then. 
> 
> Well, my plan is to productive within whatever semblance of a real economy might be left.


Fear mongering...

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## jclay2

> I've been around long enough to know that hopes and dreams are often crushed, that the government doesn't like the idea of an anonymous currency, and that investment interest typically peaks at the same time a market reaches a top. I hate to be the bitcoin bear, but I just don't look at it through rose colored glasses. Do you not find similarities between the number of bitcoins threads here and the number of silver threads when it bubbled to $50/ounce? Once people think that "this time is it" they start plowing every dime they have into a market, only to see that markets can go down just as easily as they can go up.


+ rep Jordan. Wow, I can't believe I just did that.

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## muh_roads

> I've been around long enough to know that hopes and dreams are often crushed, that the government doesn't like the idea of an anonymous currency, and that investment interest typically peaks at the same time a market reaches a top. I hate to be the bitcoin bear, but I just don't look at it through rose colored glasses. Do you not find similarities between the number of bitcoins threads here and the number of silver threads when it bubbled to $50/ounce? Once people think that "this time is it" they start plowing every dime they have into a market, only to see that markets can go down just as easily as they can go up.
> 
> I recognize that I could be wrong, but so far, placing your money AGAINST the status quo has made far more many people broke than it has ever made rich.
> 
> People aren't sick of bailouts. Households love participating in the stock market rallies. We're all Keynesians now!


You are right in one aspect there at the end.  Our culture of debt that can't save loves cheap currency.  I believe Americans will be the last to embrace BTC.

I am excited for BTC for countries that are more oppressive like China. It is very exciting right now especially because the EU is threatening to do to more countries like what they did to Cyprus.

Government $#@!ed with $50/silver easily.  We gave them the freedom to start naked paper shorting decades ago.  This is where BTC differs from metals IMO.

What they might try to do to the exchanges are what I would look out for.  But just like file transferring never went away...I don't see how BTC can go away either.  The individual will set their own prices.  Druggies need their drugs.  Oppressed people will always need an escape.

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## muh_roads

> + rep Jordan. Wow, I can't believe I just did that.


YAY +rep to someone who sides with my uneducated view about a topic...and hiding the fact that I just have sour grapes from not buying earlier.

Sorry...lol, that was mean.  I can see why hazek became defensive over BTC on this board.

Did you ever have a difficult time trying to explain why gold/silver is better than US dollars to anyone in your family?  It is starting to feel like that to me with BTC when you naysayers clearly haven't done your research.

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## jclay2

> YAY +rep to someone who sides with my uneducated view about a topic...and hiding the fact that I just have sour grapes from not buying earlier.
> 
> Sorry...lol, that was mean.  I can see why hazek became defensive over BTC on this board.
> 
> Did you ever have a difficult time trying to explain why gold/silver is better than US dollars to anyone in your family?  It is starting to feel like that to me with BTC when you naysayers clearly haven't done your research.


That is true that there are some on this board that are not educated about it. I actually think bitcoin is a great idea that needs to be talked about and thought upon more. However, the problem for me and many others is that isn't tied to something physical. If you took away the bitcoin currency system and gave me 1 bitcoin. I wouldn't value it for any utility whatsoever. The utility comes from a currency and currency alone. That is where my beef and many others lie. Yes bitcoin has some really good characteristics, but those are secondary when the only value comes from others accepting it. 

I don't think it is theoretically possible, but we need to figure out a way to mix hard currencies or even $'s to bitcoin. The medium of exchange characteristics of bitcoin are very good. If there was a way to connect it to something more real than "the power of math" and energy it takes to mine bitcoins, it would be gameover.

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## enter`name`here

I am so mad at my self right now.  About a year ago a canadian exchange opened up and I had planned to throw a spare $10 at these things every week as a novelty because I liked the idea of them.  It went well for a few weeks but then the exchange decided to go "legit" and required paperwork to continue making deposits.  I sent them my paperwork but my scanner cut some of it off and they rejected it.  I got lazy and said $#@! it and just took what coins i had bought and forgot all about bitcoins untill i came on here the other day and noticed holy $#@! they sky rocketed!  If i had gotten off my ass and filled out the work again and stuck to my original plan i'd be able to pay off half my student loans! 

I'm still sitting on an unexpected chunk of change, up 1000%+, but man i am wracked with a bad case of the "should of's"

I think I am going to fill out that paperwork and cash out most of my holdings.  I am a believer in the project but this is insane,  the 2 year chart is unnatural.  If this was the dow this forum would be alight with cries of manipulation.

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## cheapseats

*Bitcoin Mythology: Red-herrings and Bull$#@!*
By Gareth, on March 28th, 2013

http://dont-tread-on.me/?p=28991

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## gwax23

While Im not Anti Bitcoin by any means there is still a real threat that the government will shut it all down if it becomes too much of a threat or too big. None of the bitcoin supporters can deny that and thus there is substantial risk in bitcoins.

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## Petar

> While Im not Anti Bitcoin by any means there is still a real threat that the government will shut it all down if it becomes too much of a threat or too big. None of the bitcoin supporters can deny that and thus there is substantial risk in bitcoins.


Seems to me that the government in question would have to be about as tyrannical as the one in China. I just don't see it being something that the U.S. government can readily accomplish. If they had the power to shut down bitcoin, they already would have locked down the internent the same way that the Chinese already have. Further, mass adoption threatens to become something that will severely erode the tyrannical control that they currently do exercise.

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## cheapseats

Nine months ago, "as bitcoin climbs back to $12..."




> *The Bernie Madoffs of Bitcoin? As market heats back up, virtual hedge funds claim fantastical profits*
> By Adrianne Jeffries on August 15, 2012
> 
> 
> The market for Bitcoin — the digital currency of choice for the tech-savvy libertarian set — is hot again. The price of the popular online currency has steadily risen over the last six months, and the number of Bitcoin transactions per day has increased roughly 400 percent since May. The resurgence has several causes: the debut of a popular Bitcoin betting game, increased interest from Europe, and the growing success of the underground illegal drug bazaar, Silk Road. But the currency’s rebound has coincided with a relatively new phenomenon in the Bitcoin financial sector: investment funds that promise sky-high returns based on secret strategies.
> 
> So-called "High Yield Investment Programs" are suddenly being heavily advertised, promising to use investors' Bitcoins to trade large volumes, engage in complex arbitrage, and otherwise bet on the market in lucrative ways. The creators of these programs promise to pay out as much as 12 to 18 percent a month or 6.75 percent a week in returns to investors. The number of HYIPs posted in the "Lending" section of the Bitcoin Forum offering north of six percent is increasing. But suspicion is growing that these HYIPs may be nothing more than good old pyramid schemes, in which the money from new recruits is used to pay the earlier investors.
> 
> "THIS IS GOING TO BE THE NEXT BLACK EYE STORY FOR BITCOIN."
> ...

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## Petar

> Fear mongering...


It's called "reality mongering".

You may find it inconvenient to think that your precious federal reserve system may be unable to eat its own tail forever, but those of us who can make out the obvious have an idea of what is coming.

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## PaulConventionWV

> That is infinitely better than a bunch of 1's and 0's. What utility comes from having 1 bitcoin in of itself seperate from the bitcoin currency system?


Aesthetics is nothing.  We're talking about gold being hundreds of times what it would be because it is shiny.  There's nothing wrong with that.  What people fail to see is that bitcoin is totally different from any other form of currency.  Information on a computer has no intrinsic value, and yet the CIA will attest to its value, as will just about anyone.  

We've always been accustomed to thinking money has to be something tangible because that's the way it's been for millenia, but nobody ever considered the value of a uniquely self-contained digital entity.  In an age where the internet has taken the world by storm, it's safe to say that something that relies on the internet can still be valuable even though there is nothing that bases it in tangible matter reality.  It has value like the concept of logic has value.  It doesn't exist, but people know what it means and they all know it can be used.  The world is shrugging off the idea that money has to be based in material wealth, and of course people are going to dump on it.  

Record labels turned down the beatles because they said "groups with guitars" are "on the way out."

People said the television was a fad.

People are saying the same thing about bitcoin because they simply can't understand the world outside of the paradigms they have been taught with, and that is the idea that money has to be materialistic, just like wealth is materialistic.  The world is changing and leaving these people behind.  Bitcoin is not like paper money because paper really does exist as a material, but it just so happens that that material is almost completely useless when used as money.  The real problem with money is that it IS tied to material wealth, even though it is worthless.  Bitcoin is completely separate from all material wealth because it does not depend on how much paper you shuffle around, and its value does not depend on the ratio of real to imaginary paper that is being circulated.

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## PaulConventionWV

> That is true that there are some on this board that are not educated about it. I actually think bitcoin is a great idea that needs to be talked about and thought upon more. However, the problem for me and many others is that isn't tied to something physical. If you took away the bitcoin currency system and gave me 1 bitcoin. I wouldn't value it for any utility whatsoever. The utility comes from a currency and currency alone. That is where my beef and many others lie. Yes bitcoin has some really good characteristics, but those are secondary when the only value comes from others accepting it. 
> 
> I don't think it is theoretically possible, but we need to figure out a way to mix hard currencies or even $'s to bitcoin. The medium of exchange characteristics of bitcoin are very good. If there was a way to connect it to something more real than "the power of math" and energy it takes to mine bitcoins, it would be gameover.


I happen to think it's the fact that bitcion is NOT physical that gives it its value.  Why do we all have this idea that money has to be something physical?  The value of bitcoin is that it's not chained to material wealth.  For millenia, we've had to settle with material wealth as a store of value, but there's no reason we couldn't have a currency that serves better as a currency specifically because it's NOT tied to the speculation about a certain material's value as a physical object.  

We all live with this idea that wealth MUST be tied to something physical because that's how it's always been, but that doesn't mean that's how it has to be.

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## PaulConventionWV

> I am so mad at my self right now.  About a year ago a canadian exchange opened up and I had planned to throw a spare $10 at these things every week as a novelty because I liked the idea of them.  It went well for a few weeks but then the exchange decided to go "legit" and required paperwork to continue making deposits.  I sent them my paperwork but my scanner cut some of it off and they rejected it.  I got lazy and said $#@! it and just took what coins i had bought and forgot all about bitcoins untill i came on here the other day and noticed holy $#@! they sky rocketed!  If i had gotten off my ass and filled out the work again and stuck to my original plan i'd be able to pay off half my student loans! 
> 
> I'm still sitting on an unexpected chunk of change, up 1000%+, but man i am wracked with a bad case of the "should of's"
> 
> I think I am going to fill out that paperwork and cash out most of my holdings.  I am a believer in the project but this is insane,  the 2 year chart is unnatural.  If this was the dow this forum would be alight with cries of manipulation.


If Max Keiser is right, you may not have to kick yourself in a few years, considering the prospects of where bitcoin may end up going.

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