# Lifestyles & Discussion > Bitcoin / Cryptocurrencies >  Bitcoin Cracks $5000

## anaconda

https://www.forbes.com/sites/cbovair.../#6d8dc42a5a8e

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## anaconda

$4689

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## TheTexan

IMO Bitcoin can't be a real currency until its consistently depreciating in value like a real currency

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## anaconda

> IMO Bitcoin can't be a real currency until its consistently depreciating in value like a real currency


Certainly dollar inflation will put upward pressure on BTC's dollar price. But we don't see other baskets of goods inflating at the same rate as BTC. So there's much else going on.

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## anaconda

Stuck in the $4600's since hitting $5K.

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## anaconda

$4511

So much for hitting $5000

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## TheTexan

4407

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## Crashland

Why does everyone seem to think that a currency has to be constantly depreciating to be used as a currency?

1. Hold on to only as much Fiat as you need to in order to satisfy your needs for emergency funds or planned long term diversification strategy. This can be literally anywhere from 0% to 100% of your networth depending on your plan.
2. Anything that does not fall under #1 or other diversified investments, buy cryptocurrencies (convert at the time when you are paid in dollars, or just get paid in crypto). It is in your best interest to do this conversion immediately upon receipt of extra dollars (not in #1), because by the time you wish to spend on something, your crypto is more likely to have gone up in purchasing power, and your dollars are more likely to have gone down in purchasing power.
3. When you wish to spend on something, you will not spend dollars because all of your dollars are allocated towards purpose of #1 which you have already set aside. Therefore you will spend your crypto. On top of that, if the value of the crypto went way up then spending it on goods and services helps to rebalance your asset allocation. On the flip side, spend dollars if the crypto value has gone down until you are rebalanced.

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## Mordan

i just discovered this forum.. gosh didn't know there was one..  

good!

5 of my friends bought Bitcoin recently for the first time. And Monero because I advised them to buy some too since it has interesting cryptographic properties.

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## anaconda

$3906

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## anaconda

> Why does everyone seem to think that a currency has to be constantly depreciating to be used as a currency?
> 
> 1. Hold on to only as much Fiat as you need to in order to satisfy your needs for emergency funds or planned long term diversification strategy. This can be literally anywhere from 0% to 100% of your networth depending on your plan.
> 2. Anything that does not fall under #1 or other diversified investments, buy cryptocurrencies (convert at the time when you are paid in dollars, or just get paid in crypto). It is in your best interest to do this conversion immediately upon receipt of extra dollars (not in #1), because by the time you wish to spend on something, your crypto is more likely to have gone up in purchasing power, and your dollars are more likely to have gone down in purchasing power.
> 3. When you wish to spend on something, you will not spend dollars because all of your dollars are allocated towards purpose of #1 which you have already set aside. Therefore you will spend your crypto. On top of that, if the value of the crypto went way up then spending it on goods and services helps to rebalance your asset allocation. On the flip side, spend dollars if the crypto value has gone down until you are rebalanced.


Why are you advocating for buying cryptos rather than, say, real estate?

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## anaconda

$3871

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## anaconda

$3847

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## anaconda

$3334

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## anaconda

$3321 now.

$2900 anyone?

$1900?

Where's the trough?

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## anaconda

$3263

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## anaconda

$3242

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## anaconda

$3231

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## anaconda

$3321 

Skyrocketing upward!

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## anaconda

$3400

The sky's the limit!

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## kpitcher

Some news speculates that some chinese exchanges may open back up at the end of the year. Wonder if that put a stop to the downward trend?

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## anaconda

$3746

#bouncing back

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## RonPaulIsGreat

Nom, Nom, Nom..... cheap coins....

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## oyarde

> Nom, Nom, Nom..... cheap coins....


LOL , not really sure I would call that cheap .

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## anaconda

$3842

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## anaconda

$3928

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## anaconda

BTC is climbing faster than a Joe Scarborough hit single.

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## anaconda

$4011

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## anaconda

$4026

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## Warrior_of_Freedom

if i put my life savings into bit coin i'd be able to retire at 40

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## RonPaulIsGreat

> if i put my life savings into bit coin i'd be able to retire at 40


If I had put the 1000.00 dollars I was debating putting in in 2010, I'd be worth (if held it all), like 10 Million dollars.

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## Warrior_of_Freedom

Damn I'd probably be a billionaire then if I put in my life savings :O

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## dannno

BTC-E back up

wex.nz

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## RonPaulIsGreat

> Damn I'd probably be a billionaire then if I put in my life savings :O


I remember it was 25 cents per bitcoin. That'd be 4 / dollar, so 4000 BTC  x 4000.00= 16,000,000.00 Whoops guess I underestimated.

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## Mordan

but you didn't.

next best time to buy is now and buy everytime there is a dip.

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## anaconda

Some upward movement today:

$4154

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## anaconda

$4244

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## anaconda

> but you didn't.
> 
> next best time to buy is now and buy everytime there is a dip.


But wait until the dip hits the bottom of the trough.

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## anaconda

$4331

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## anaconda

$4448

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## RonPaulIsGreat

Just needs to go 10x... and I'm golden!

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## anaconda

$4577

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## anaconda

$4610

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## dannno

$4779

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## anaconda

$4816

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## anaconda

Is there a path to $5000 that doesn't involve another epic implosion immediately thereafter?

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## anaconda

$4893

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## anaconda

$4919

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## anaconda

$5000

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## anaconda

$5110

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## anaconda

$5170

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## anaconda

$5096

#crashing & burning

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## anaconda

$5204

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## anaconda

$5315

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## anaconda

$5414

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## anaconda

$5654

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## anaconda

$5787

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## anaconda

$5820

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## anaconda

$5700 & $5800 hundred seemed to fall without any hesitation. $5600 seemed to have folks skittish for a bit. Any guesses on where the dust may settle here?

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## anaconda

$5609

Sell-off time?

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## anaconda

$5733

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## anaconda

$5461 

The sky is falling.

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## anaconda

$5704

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## anaconda

$5828

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## jkr

shoulda went all in on the "dimon dip"

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## kahless

Just saw Ron advertising Bitcoin on Fox News for coinira.  FNC is significant exposure for Bitcoin.  I wonder how long these commercials have been running and what the Ron Paul effect is having on the price seeing it mainstream like that on Fox.

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## dannno

> Just saw Ron advertising Bitcoin on Fox News for coinira.  FNC is significant exposure for Bitcoin.  I wonder how long these commercials have been running and what the Ron Paul effect is having on the price seeing it mainstream like that on Fox.


Really?? I have never heard Ron Paul being very supportive of bitcoin, beyond that it should be legal and people should be able to use it.

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## kahless

> Really?? I have never heard Ron Paul being very supportive of bitcoin, beyond that it should be legal and people should be able to use it.


Advertised as part of an IRA portfolio, "Bitcoin IRA" and he is also featured prominently on their website: https://coinira.com/ .  They are a subsidiary of Goldco which Ron is their "chief ambassador".

http://www.newsmax.com/Finance/Trevo.../13/id/778491/



> I'm Trevor Gerszt and I am the CEO of Goldco Precious Metals, the nation's most trusted gold IRA provider.
> 
> I am excited to announce that former Congressman and Presidential candidate, Ron Paul is going to be our new chief ambassador. Together we will work to continue educating investors on the importance of protecting their hard earned IRA and 401(k) accounts with physical assets like gold and silver.

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## anaconda

$5944

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## RonPaulIsGreat

> Just saw Ron advertising Bitcoin on Fox News for coinira.  FNC is significant exposure for Bitcoin.  I wonder how long these commercials have been running and what the Ron Paul effect is having on the price seeing it mainstream like that on Fox.


It's catching on. I'm tellin ya.

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## TheTexan

> It's catching on. I'm tellin ya.

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## FSP-Rebel



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## anaconda

$6057

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## anaconda

$6074

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## The Northbreather

No way!!

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## anaconda

> No way!!


Way!

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## Natural Citizen

Turns out my bitcoin was just one of those replica coins. But I still have my silver certificates, so...

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## devil21

So have any of y'all converted back into FRN at these mega high btc valuations without issues?

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## dannno

> Turns out my bitcoin was just one of those replica coins.


Which one? How does that even happen?

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## LibertyEagle

> Really?? I have never heard Ron Paul being very supportive of bitcoin, beyond that it should be legal and people should be able to use it.


I just saw it too.

https://coinira.com/

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## LibertyEagle

Good luck to those of you who got in on this.  I hope it continues to do well for you.

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## kpitcher

Wall street billionaire starts a new $500 million crypto fund, puts in $150 million of  his own money. Predicts Bitcoin hits $10,000 in a year

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/10/bitc...ager-says.html

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## axiomata

Many years ago when it was first getting started someone posted in these forums about a way to get .05 bitcoin free for setting up a wallet.  I did it and haven't touched bitcoin since.  Now worth $270.

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## SpiritOf1776_J4

> IMO Bitcoin can't be a real currency until its consistently depreciating in value like a real currency


currency depreciates because it's fiat, it's not exactly real.  Under normal circumstances, when pegged to a fixed real world thing like gold which isn't being manufactured, as more wealth becomes available, if you want gold for it, gold rises - because gold isn't increasing.

also, bitcoin isn't limitless.  it was designed to keep getting harder to get.  paper money fyi isn't.

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## anaconda

$6180

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## anaconda

$6370

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## anaconda

$6411

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## anaconda

$6611

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## devil21

I ask again, is anyone taking profits at these parabolic valuations?

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## kfarnan

> I ask again, is anyone taking profits at these parabolic valuations?


what?

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## anaconda

> what?


I think devil21 is asking if BTC holders think this might be good time to sell..

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## jllundqu

Where is the best place to buy BTC?  I don't have a wallet or anything setup, but I've been trying to edumacate misself and would like to start investing.  I thing BTC is going to go way up.

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## dannno

> Where is the best place to buy BTC?  I don't have a wallet or anything setup, but I've been trying to edumacate misself and would like to start investing.  I thing BTC is going to go way up.


The easiest way is coinbase, with a bank account. If you want to meetup with somebody and buy it with cash, you can use localbitcoins.com

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## jllundqu

> The easiest way is coinbase, with a bank account. If you want to meetup with somebody and buy it with cash, you can use localbitcoins.com


Thanks.  Just bought my first BTC.  Coinbase makes it VERY easy to transact.  People may call me crazy buying at these levels, but I don't think so.  I think in 5 years, BTC will be ridiculously higher.

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## jllundqu

What are peoples thoughts on Litecoin? Ethereum?

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## jllundqu

BTC $6623 !

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## devil21

> what?


I figured my question was pretty straight forward.  Is anyone cashing out their bitcoins back into FRN without hassle from exchanges or banks?  Say, like selling 2 bitcoins for $6500 each ($13k total) and depositing that back into a bank account for use?




> I think devil21 is asking if BTC holders think this might be good time to sell..


More wondering if the exchanges and banks are cooperating with reverting bitcoin profits back into FRN through the banking system.  I mean, sure it'll be great when/if bitcoin is $25k or whatever but does it matter, if the exchange won't cash them back out or a bank won't accept the wire.





> The easiest way is coinbase, with a bank account. If you want to meetup with somebody and buy it with cash, you can use localbitcoins.com


Fwiw, I read something about the Feds charging some guy with unlicensed money services for messing with localbitcoins.com.  Could just be a fear tactic but I wish you guys luck with the bitcoin stuff.  Coinbase has a federal prosecutor on the Board of Directors now.  I see A LOT of red flags these days.

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## dannno

> I figured my question was pretty straight forward.  Is anyone cashing out their bitcoins back into FRN without hassle from exchanges or banks?  Say, like selling 2 bitcoins for $6500 each ($13k total) and depositing that back into a bank account for use?


I would probably buy gold instead, then sell that for FRNs when the time comes if need be.

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## kpitcher

> Thanks.  Just bought my first BTC.  Coinbase makes it VERY easy to transact.  People may call me crazy buying at these levels, but I don't think so.  I think in 5 years, BTC will be ridiculously higher.


Welcome to the crypto revolution!

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## RonPaulIsGreat

> I figured my question was pretty straight forward.  Is anyone cashing out their bitcoins back into FRN without hassle from exchanges or banks?  Say, like selling 2 bitcoins for $6500 each ($13k total) and depositing that back into a bank account for use?
> 
> 
> 
> More wondering if the exchanges and banks are cooperating with reverting bitcoin profits back into FRN through the banking system.  I mean, sure it'll be great when/if bitcoin is $25k or whatever but does it matter, if the exchange won't cash them back out or a bank won't accept the wire.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fwiw, I read something about the Feds charging some guy with unlicensed money services for messing with localbitcoins.com.  Could just be a fear tactic but I wish you guys luck with the bitcoin stuff.  Coinbase has a federal prosecutor on the Board of Directors now.  I see A LOT of red flags these days.


I sold some like a dumbass earlier this year, if I held would be worth like $100K+ more than I am now. Sold on coinbase, transferred to my bank. No one has said a word bank or "gdax" (coinbases exchange side). I still have bitcoins, I didn't sell it all. 

It seems some banks have a problem with it, others don't. My bank is small, and if they have a problem with it, I'll just move to a different bank the next day. 
It's legal to buy and sell bitcoins. I don't do drugs, or hire hitmen. I'm a model citizen as far as law abiding goes, despite my views that government is 95% not needed. 

Having said all that, I sold enough to cover all my "real" world fiat costs associated with bitcoin and cryptocurrency in general since 2013 when I started. Only in bitcoin land does one feel ashamed selling for multiple 100's of percent gains. lol.

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## devil21

> I would probably buy gold instead, then sell that for FRNs when the time comes if need be.


If I were in y'alls position that is generally what I would do also.  Not involving FRN in any form at least complicates things for the Feds, jurisdictionally, in case they get froggy on you.

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## RonPaulIsGreat

> If I were in y'alls position that is generally what I would do also.  Not involving FRN in any form at least complicates things for the Feds, jurisdictionally, in case they get froggy on you.


I actually pay my capital gains tax on bitcoin, I'm not hiding. One could if so inclined, jump some hoops and remain anon. But I just don't want to deal with it. 15% capital gains, hurt writing tax checks worth more than I spend on myself for a full year. But I can prove to any goobermint agent paid my slave tax to support welfare mommas and military men.

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## Mordan

welcome to anyone on the BTC train. CME news is huge!! It is like an official stamp of trustworthyness by the very players Bitcoin are disrupting.

The best strategy is to never sell and buy dips. Buy Buy more and spend your bitcoins directly. I am hodling my 2013 bitcoins and spending my BCH for small purchases. 

I KNOW BTC will be 50k in a few years. Read my history on this forum in 2013. I asked everyone to buy Bitcoin. 

Come back on this post in 3 years.

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## Mordan

> What are peoples thoughts on Litecoin? Ethereum?


I am 95% in Bitcoin. Some BTS (Bitshares), 4% Monero. Simply because it is the best private coin but privacy has a big cost.

I don't believe in other alts. Try synching ethereum blockchain before buying... Sync the bitcoin blockchain and you will understand.

By holding Bitcoin you hold all the free coins you get from forks.. Avoid coinbase. You don't control the private keys.

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## jkr

so if I had .8 of a coin when it split for bth did i get .8 for free? where is it, how do i control it?
we are on coinbase, should i get a new wallet and move it there? how do i do that?

...i have a friend that wants to know...

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## kpitcher

> so if I had .8 of a coin when it split for bth did i get .8 for free? where is it, how do i control it?
> we are on coinbase, should i get a new wallet and move it there? how do i do that?
> 
> ...i have a friend that wants to know...


Coinbase will add the bitcoin cash Jan 2018. So you'd have .8 of BCH then

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## devil21

> welcome to anyone on the BTC train. CME news is huge!! It is like an official stamp of trustworthyness by the very players Bitcoin are disrupting.
> 
> The best strategy is to never sell and buy dips. Buy Buy more and spend your bitcoins directly. I am hodling my 2013 bitcoins and spending my BCH for small purchases. 
> 
> I KNOW BTC will be 50k in a few years. Read my history on this forum in 2013. I asked everyone to buy Bitcoin. 
> 
> Come back on this post in 3 years.


At some point, if your goal truly is to _hold_ forever, you have to stop denoting bitcoins in a dollar value and let the bitcoin number stand on its own as a measure of currency/wealth.  If a bitcoin truly has a market value of $50k then the dollar is complete trash, same as if an ounce of gold is openly $50k.  It then wouldn't be a measure _against_ dollars, it would be a measure _of_ bitcoins.

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## anaconda

$6962

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## anaconda

$7008

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## anaconda

$7085

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## anaconda

$7146

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## anaconda

> At some point, if your goal truly is to _hold_ forever, you have to stop denoting bitcoins in a dollar value and let the bitcoin number stand on its own as a measure of currency/wealth.  If a bitcoin truly has a market value of $50k then the dollar is complete trash, same as if an ounce of gold is openly $50k.  It then wouldn't be a measure _against_ dollars, it would be a measure _of_ bitcoins.


In a USD currency crisis things won't be measurable in USD. People may compare to gold, silver, Exxon stock, or some generally accepted basket of goods. USD won't be accepted as a medium of exchange. The currency crisis is not here yet, so BTC is not gaining because the dollar is trash. This may come later (will come, according to Peter Schiff and Ron Paul). BTC is (obviously) currently gaining at a much greater rate than the inflation of the USD.

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## anaconda

$7303

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## anaconda

$6942

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## dannno

> $7303


Wow

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## jllundqu

And there's the dip folks.  Dropped over $600 in 30 minutes

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## Mordan

> At some point, if your goal truly is to _hold_ forever, you have to stop denoting bitcoins in a dollar value and let the bitcoin number stand on its own as a measure of currency/wealth.  If a bitcoin truly has a market value of $50k then the dollar is complete trash, same as if an ounce of gold is openly $50k.  It then wouldn't be a measure _against_ dollars, it would be a measure _of_ bitcoins.


it is an on going process. it does not happen overnight. 

I value alt coins in Bitcoin as I feel it is a better measurement to gauge if an altcoin is performing relative to the crypto reserve currency.

XRPs are around 2700 satoshis.  XMR (Monero) is around 12 mBTC. I bought some Monero at 31 mBTC, 20 mBTC and 16 mBTC. so my monero investement is not performing.

Doge is 17 satoshis.

You can't use BTC for real life objects just yet. Give it time. Price discovery is still on going.

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## Mordan

> In a USD currency crisis things won't be measurable in USD. People may compare to gold, silver, Exxon stock, or some generally accepted basket of goods. USD won't be accepted as a medium of exchange. The currency crisis is not here yet, so BTC is not gaining because the dollar is trash. This may come later (will come, according to Peter Schiff and Ron Paul). BTC is (obviously) currently gaining at a much greater rate than the inflation of the USD.


sorry folks but I sold all my gold or silver... I am all in crypto currencies. I wouldn't want to touch physical stuff. When i look in the rear mirror.. iam like wtf.. a metal bar you can't divide into millions of tiny pieces.. just not convenient unless armageddon.. but i bet that we won't have armageddon.

I don't know a single millenial who wants to buy gold. And i know a gold bug who went all in Crypto as well.. so my bet is going to pay off.

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## dannno

$7100

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## kpitcher

> it is an on going process. it does not happen overnight. 
> Doge is 17 satoshis.


I don't see Doge doing anything but going down or hovering at a few satoshi. It has 111 billion coins and no real roadmap to give value. Although it did jump to 100 Satoshi this summer so it could climb like that for a near 10x growth again I wouldn't expect it to.

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## DaninPA

Is anyone buying Bitcoin  at these prices?

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## dannno

> Is anyone buying Bitcoin  at these prices?


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post6546620

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## jllundqu

> Is anyone buying Bitcoin  at these prices?


I bought yesterday and it is now up $500.... jus sayin

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## jllundqu

$7082

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## DaninPA

> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post6546620


Sorry, my question should have been:

How does one know the price (in frn’s) will continue to rise?

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## anaconda

> Sorry, my question should have been:
> 
> How does one know the price (in frn’s) will continue to rise?


One easy thing to keep in mind is that the quantity of bitcoins is fixed. So any inflation in the USD should be reflected in BTC's price in USD. Elsewhere if technology improves BTC's value as a medium of exchange, demand for it should increase in any denomination. Also, to the extent that the demand for fiat currencies might decrease in the future (monetary instability per governments) consumers may prefer to substitute BTC for fiat, thereby increasing the demand for BTC. If Ron Paul and Peter Schiff are right, BTC may have a very bright future.

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## Mordan



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## devil21

> sorry folks but I sold all my gold or silver... I am all in crypto currencies. I wouldn't want to touch physical stuff. When i look in the rear mirror.. iam like wtf.. a metal bar you can't divide into millions of tiny pieces.. just not convenient unless armageddon.. but i bet that we won't have armageddon.
> 
> I don't know a single millenial who wants to buy gold. And i know a gold bug who went all in Crypto as well.. so my bet is going to pay off.


smh

So much for sound money, eh?

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## anaconda

$7220

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## anaconda

$7405.90 on CoinDesk

https://www.coindesk.com/price/

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## EBounding

How quickly can 2 bitcoins be converted to USD and what are the typical transaction costs?

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## CCTelander

> $7043
> 
> The party is over..



Buy on the dips!

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## anaconda

$6603

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## TheTexan

#crashing

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## anaconda

$6087. 

From the depths of Hell.

It can't drop below ZERO. Right? Or, can they make us PAY for owning Bitcoin?

This is the most bear market I've seen for bitcoin since 1971.

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## kpitcher

Bitcoin Cash is up 226.76% for the week. That's just silly

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## Krugminator2

> Bitcoin Cash is up 226.76% for the week. That's just silly


It is kind of ridiculous. I don't much about Bitcoin.  I had $1700 in Bitcoin Cash which I didn't know I had. I play a little bit of poker and for some reason found they must have sent me Bitcoin Cash instead of Bitcoin a while back.  I just found it when I opened up another wallet.  The price of Bitcoin Cash was  $600 when I got rid of it. And now it hit $2800 a few days later.

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## dannno

> It is kind of ridiculous. I don't much about Bitcoin.  I had $1700 in Bitcoin Cash which I didn't know I had. I play a little bit of poker and for some reason found they must have sent me Bitcoin Cash instead of Bitcoin a while back.  I just found it when I opened up another wallet.  The price of Bitcoin Cash was  $600 when I got rid of it. And now it hit $2800 a few days later.


When it forks, you get both, maybe why?

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## anaconda

$5839

At this rate we'll hit ZERO in about 3 weeks.

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## EBounding

It's ok, it's back up to $6500. #soundmoney

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## ChristianAnarchist

Well I currently have only .207 btc and I have a sell order in at $7800.  Looks like it's going back up there.  I bought at about 6800 and if my sell order executes I'll try to catch the next dip to buy back.  My problem is after I sell there's no dip!!

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## Mordan

> Well I currently have only .207 btc and I have a sell order in at $7800.  Looks like it's going back up there.  I bought at about 6800 and if my sell order executes I'll try to catch the next dip to buy back.  My problem is after I sell there's no dip!!


are we in a bull trend or a bearish trend?

never try to time tops or bottoms.

trade if you want but HODLing and buying dips is the easiest strategy.

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## devil21

Btw, if I had a chunk of spare cash to gamble right now, I'd be putting it on a bunch of Deutsche Bank short positions (and anything that shorts markets, really) instead of Bitcoin.  I think market correction/crash started on 11/9 (9/11).  But alas, I am but a poor man so....

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## muh_roads



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## Gaddafi Duck

> Money is consensus. Maybe if Blankfein says it how it is you will listen



Nah, Bitcoin isn't money because it's not even being used as money. People aren't buying coffee with Bitcoins because the transaction costs are far too high. It's far cheaper and efficient to use dollars.

People mistake Bitcoin's price going up as validation that it's a currency. It isn't. So there's really no purpose of holding a currency if you're not using it and cannot use it for everyday purchases. So, why do people hold Bitcoins? Because the price is going up. Because ICOs require Bitcoins to participate. So it's all speculation-driven.

So, if Bitcoin is too expensive to use in everyday commerce, then what's the point of it? Holding a digital-nothing? As I said, there are many benefits to owning a digital house. There's no taxes, no maintenance, etc. But, it doesn't satisfy the purpose of a "house". So, if a digital currency cannot be used for coffee because of high transaction costs, what's the point of holding a digital "currency"? Because it goes up? Not a good reason. A speculative answer rooted in nothing fundamental.

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## Gaddafi Duck

> You sound like that lame Hulu documentary that was full of worthless bull$#@! which claimed that the bitcoin bubble burst a few years ago.
> 
> No doubt you will be saying the same thing when a bitcoin is worth $100k, $500k..  "Oh, it's just a bubble, guys!!"


When tulip bulbs bought an acre of land, that was crazy. Then it bought 12 acres and was equal to a decade's worth of a skilled craftsman's labor. It was even crazier then. When tulip bulbs were equal to an annual salary, it was a bubble. When it was equal to 10 years of your salary, it was a bigger bubble, and then it burst. 

Judging by the fact that you're suggesting Bitcoin will be worth $500k tells me you won't cash out. The person who argued when tulips were 10x an annual salary that it was going to 20x. Only, it reverted to rationality. 

Bitcoin doesn't even function as a currency because it's too expensive and too inefficient to transact with. So, if I cannot use Bitcoins to buy coffee because of the cost, then what's the point of holding it? You might as well buy digital houses. So what if you cannot live in them? They have many benefits real homes do not. If Bitcoins are too expensive and slow to use in everyday commerce, so what? The point of digital currency isn't to actually use it to buy things---it's to park your wealth and watch it go up. The greater fool theory, if you will.

----------


## anaconda

> When tulip bulbs bought an acre of land, that was crazy. Then it bought 12 acres and was equal to a decade's worth of a skilled craftsman's labor. It was even crazier then. When tulip bulbs were equal to an annual salary, it was a bubble. When it was equal to 10 years of your salary, it was a bigger bubble, and then it burst. 
> 
> Judging by the fact that you're suggesting Bitcoin will be worth $500k tells me you won't cash out. The person who argued when tulips were 10x an annual salary that it was going to 20x. Only, it reverted to rationality. 
> 
> Bitcoin doesn't even function as a currency because it's too expensive and too inefficient to transact with. So, if I cannot use Bitcoins to buy coffee because of the cost, then what's the point of holding it? You might as well buy digital houses. So what if you cannot live in them? They have many benefits real homes do not. If Bitcoins are too expensive and slow to use in everyday commerce, so what? The point of digital currency isn't to actually use it to buy things---it's to park your wealth and watch it go up. The greater fool theory, if you will.


You can buy however much BTC you want. You can buy fractions of a coin. The real issue is flight from phony paper money and engaging in anonymous transactions.

----------


## Gaddafi Duck

> You can buy however much BTC you want. You can buy fractions of a coin. The real issue is flight from phony paper money and engaging in anonymous transactions.




Only, it's not anonymous. "Here, online merchant, are some Bitcoins. Mail the goods to this [my home] address."

Suuuuuper anonymous transaction  And then stored on the digital records of these merchants is "ABC [with their home address] paid X number of Bitcoins for Good Z"

Furthermore, Bitcoin offers _pseudonymity_ *not* _anonymity_. This is the critical issue with Bitcoin enthusiasts. They fundamentally don't embrace the fundamentals. Bitcoin is *too expensive* to use everyday, it takes *too long* to process a transaction, and too many embrace the falsehood that Bitcoin is "anonymous". It isn't.

Bitcoin is a social network, not a currency. Bitcoin enthusiasts are confusing the fact that Bitcoin is going up with validation that, "A-HAH! It's a CURRENCY!" People aren't buying Bitcoin because they're using it as a currency. They're buying it because it's going up, and because the ICO market is bubbly. That's analogous to buying a house because home prices are going up---not because you're actually going to live in the house. What's the point of a digital currency if you never use it to buy stuff? 

Sounds like, from these debates, the Bitcoinists buy and hold Bitcoin with no intention of selling (why pay high transaction fees for a coffee and wait an hour for the transaction to process, especially when Bitcoin is going to be worth *$500,000*?" So Bitcoinists aren't even using Bitcoin as a currency but as a speculative instrument. Similar to the bubble parable surrounding "trading sardines". "These sardines aren't meant for eating---they're _TRADING_ sardines"

----------


## Mordan

> Nah, Bitcoin isn't money because it's not even being used as money. People aren't buying coffee with Bitcoins because the transaction costs are far too high. It's far cheaper and efficient to use dollars.


Do you use Gold coins to buy coffee? is Gold money?

----------


## Gaddafi Duck

> Do you use Gold coins to buy coffee? is Gold money?


I personally don't because it's illegal to do so. However, gold is actually "something" and has been used as money. Also, central banks hold massive reserves of gold, for "tradition" of course 

Contrasted with Bitcoins, which is not "money," I think because people begin with the premise that it is money is why people insist Bitcoin is a "currency" but it really isn't. If transaction costs are so high and people cannot use it for everyday purchases, is it really money? 

So Bitcoin isn't used as money. And people have it in their head that because Bitcoin has gone up means its purpose as a digital currency is being validated. That's the implied conclusion you made in your head. You mistake a rising price for argument validation. But if your argument is digital currencies are alternatives to dollars, then that should mean Bitcoin offers what dollars do not. But, it doesn't. From what I can tell, Bitcoin takes an hour to process and validate a transaction completely, and the costs are astronomical with fees.

Seems like the Pony Express of digital payments with much higher costs.

----------


## Gaddafi Duck

I think it's obvious Bitcoin enthusiasts are confusing and conflating a rising Bitcoin price with validation that Bitcoin is a currency. Those are entirely separate concepts. People are buying Bitcoin because it's going up---not because it's being used and in demand for buying Christmas toys and weekly gas station purchases and groceries.

This tells me Bitcoin is a very dangerous speculative bubble. Remember when people with no jobs bought 8 homes a decade ago? They never intended to live in the homes---many didn't even consider renting them out. They bought them because they could sell them a year later for tens of thousands more to someone who would pay more than they did. Exactly the same with Bitcoin. When homes are bought for reasons not to be lived in, that's a red flag. Likewise, when people buy a currency with no intention of using it as a currency, you have to wonder what purpose it then serves? 

Then you toss in the fact that all this central bank inflation has driven people to bidding up utilities to 50x P/Es, Amazon with low profits to 200x P/E, it stands to reason helpless speculators wander into a hot market like Bitcoin. This is typical behavior exhibited in bubbles. It all bursts.

----------


## kfarnan

A currency has no store of value.  So it's not a real currency.  The whole economy is speculation.  So, you don't buy PM"S, stocks.  It's all speculation that things will be more valuable in the future.

----------


## anaconda

> A currency has no store of value.  So it's not a real currency.  The whole economy is speculation.  So, you don't buy PM"S, stocks.  It's all speculation that things will be more valuable in the future.


well spoken

----------


## ClaytonB

> Yeah, a bank account gives you legal right to notes that are actually used in commerce and taxes. Unlike Bitcoins which take 10+ minutes to verify a transaction, and up to an hour to complete? And the transaction fees on Bitcoins are outrageous--prohibitively expensive to use for everyday purchases.


Soon, Lightning Networks will be available and transactions will be able to complete instantaneously with fully verified security. Transaction fees have spiked on occasion but most of the issue is that people are using wallets that do not correctly calculate the minimum fee they need to pay, so the end up overpaying. At the height of the last demand spike a week ago, most people did not need to pay more than about $7 in order to get their transaction through quickly but many people were paying $20 or even more. Of course, a sustained $7 tx fee is insane but if you average out Bitcoin's tx fees over the 3 months to a year, they are somewhere in the $0.25-0.50 range per basic transaction (i.e. a simple payment + change).

----------


## Gaddafi Duck

> A currency has no store of value.  So it's not a real currency.  The whole economy is speculation.  So, you don't buy PM"S, stocks.  It's all speculation that things will be more valuable in the future.


Erm...a currency should have a store of value. What's the point of holding something that the next day may collapse 30%? Bitcoin does this regularly. 

Stocks aren't speculation---I mean, it's called "valuation". Sure, speculation occurs, but you can actually value a stock as it represents a real business. Bitcoin represents a digital "currency" that's not even used as a currency. So it's a "digital"...$8000 for a piece of digital. Might as well start selling $100,000 digital houses. No one need live in it just as nobody need to use Bitcoin as a currency. People will just own digital currencies to own them, just as they'd own digital homes. Why live in digital homes? Why use digital currencies? Buy and hold...and hope to sell to a greater fool!

But hey, in the Tulipmania, tulip bulbs went at 10x a skilled craftsman's salary. So who knows, maybe it will go to $500,000. It'd be just as dumb as dumping a year's salary into a tenth of a tulip bulb in the 17th century.

----------


## kfarnan

Price and value aren't the same thing. the dollar has lost most of it's value.    Until, the dollar collapses, it will be accounted for. And No, tulips aren't in limited supply.

----------


## anaconda

$8325

----------


## anaconda

$8363

----------


## anaconda

$8394

----------


## anaconda

$8400

----------


## anaconda

$8443

----------


## devil21

> I'm surprised the corrections earlier didn't seem to last that long. The crash after hitting $1200 the first time took 2 years to recover. The dip to $5000 barely slowed the climb.


Why are you surprised?  It's obvious the bitcoin markets are running algo'ed side by side with the stock market.  None of the bitcoin crowd ever comments on how the CBs can easily buy up the crypto market with printed cash the same way they do with stocks and bonds.

----------


## anaconda

$8510

----------


## anaconda

$8600

----------


## TheTexan

> $8600


#bubble

Totally gonna pop soon

And then after it pops it will go to 20000

----------


## anaconda

$8725

----------


## anaconda

> #bubble
> 
> Totally gonna pop soon
> 
> And then after it pops it will go to 20000


What's the dip/trough before the sprint to 20000?

----------


## RonPaulIsGreat

> Why are you surprised?  It's obvious the bitcoin markets are running algo'ed side by side with the stock market.  None of the bitcoin crowd ever comments on how the CBs can easily buy up the crypto market with printed cash the same way they do with stocks and bonds.


Maybe you'll get lucky and they'll start buying gold to!

----------


## anaconda

$8800

https://www.coinbase.com/charts

----------


## anaconda

$8902

----------


## TheTexan

> What's the dip/trough before the sprint to 20000?


To 11000 then 7800 then 17000 then 14000 then 20000

u heard it here first

----------


## anaconda

$9000

----------


## anaconda

$9080

I saw it jump up $82 in about 3 minutes  I think.

----------


## anaconda

> To 11000 then 7800 then 17000 then 14000 then 20000
> 
> u heard it here first


I predicted $6000 by Thanksgiving on 8/31/17 when it was around $4800 or something. So a bolder estimate like yours seems good.

----------


## anaconda

$9193

----------


## anaconda

$9110

Crashing

Anyone holding 1 million coins just lost a bunch

----------


## dannno

$9,595

----------


## anaconda

> $9,595


$9432

Crashing big time.

----------


## phill4paul

> $9432
> 
> Crashing big time.


   $9370!  End of the world for those that bought in a $1 a coin.

----------


## devil21

> Maybe you'll get lucky and they'll start buying gold to!


The abject monetary ignorance of that statement only serves to confirm why I do not take any investment advice from you.

----------


## dannno

> The abject monetary ignorance of that statement only serves to confirm why I do not take any investment advice from you.


Ya the elite own a huge amount of all the gold, but that's actually another great argument for bitcoin.

----------


## dannno

$9,677

----------


## devil21

> Ya the elite own a huge amount of all the gold, but that's actually another great argument for bitcoin.


Because a _picture_ of a bitcoin looks like it's made of gold?

----------


## anaconda

$9738

----------


## jllundqu

I 'invested' in September.  Today my investment has officially doubled.

----------


## jllundqu

Waiting for the next dip to throw some more play cash at it.

----------


## dannno

> Because a _picture_ of a bitcoin looks like it's made of gold?


Uh, no, because of the wealth transfer that will occur away from the elite.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

Bitcoin is not widely used as a medium of exchange, and isn't going to be for the foreseeable future. Why? One can point to the extreme volatility or the high transaction costs, as @Gaddafi Duck mentioned, but there's a more fundamental problem. Fiat is dominant not because of its economic properties, but because of the gun. It might be that bitcoin would eventually prevail against fiat (or even against gold or other former market monies) in a free currency market, but there isn't a free currency market, nor any prospect of one arising in the foreseeable future. If bitcoin became a serious threat to the state's inflationary activities, bitcoin would simply be suppressed, as was gold in the past (and no amount of encryption et al can prevent this, since to be useful as a currency bitcoin must at some point interact with the real world). In any event, bitcoin is now primarily a speculative asset, not a currency, and the bubble will burst long before it becomes a major currency. If you're making $$$ (pun intended) in bitcoin, awesome, but see it for what it is .

----------


## RonPaulIsGreat

> Bitcoin is not widely used as a medium of exchange, and isn't going to be for the foreseeable future. Why? One can point to the extreme volatility or the high transaction costs, as @Gaddafi Duck mentioned, but there's a more fundamental problem. Fiat is dominant not because of its economic properties, but because of the gun. It might be that bitcoin would eventually prevail against fiat (or even against gold or other former market monies) in a free currency market, but there isn't a free currency market, nor any prospect of one arising in the foreseeable future. If bitcoin became a serious threat to the state's inflationary activities, bitcoin would simply be suppressed, as was gold in the past (and no amount of encryption et al can prevent this, since to be useful as a currency bitcoin must at some point interact with the real world). In any event, bitcoin is now primarily a speculative asset, not a currency, and the bubble will burst long before it becomes a major currency. If you're making $$$ (pun intended) in bitcoin, awesome, but see it for what it is .


Yeah, need like 20 fold increase in users to get there. Then what? Well, at that level of adoption it becomes very likely that everyone will know at least a couple other people that accept bitcoin. Then paying the babysitter in bitcoin is highly likely, paying the lawn guy, etc... At that point nearly every single person will know a "good" person that owns bitcoin, so the "criminal" narrative will be rather weak as well, if the try to spin it that way. 

What that also means is if the "Goobermint" banned it they will have 10's of millions of middle class and higher americans pissed as $#@! at them. There is no way in hell for example I'd ever vote for politician that even toyed with the concept of banning bitcoin, and there is a good chance I'd donate to their opponent as well. Even if that was Rand Paul (doubt he'd do that). 


The high transaction cost will likely be mitigated in 2018. There are schnorr signatures which help reduce the size of a transaction, there are the lightning network type proposals, which are very near from exiting testnet status and being deployed in real usage, and there is always the inevitable option of upping the block size, which will happen at some point. Sure it doesn't get us all the way there, but it's not like bitcoin is stuck forever.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> What that also means is if the "Goobermint" banned it they will have 10's of millions of middle class and higher americans pissed as $#@! at them. There is no way in hell for example I'd ever vote for politician that even toyed with the concept of banning bitcoin, and there is a good chance I'd donate to their opponent as well. Even if that was Rand Paul (doubt he'd do that).


All they'd have to do is tax transactions sufficiently to make bitcoin uncompetitive relative the (untaxed) dollar. 

Very simple, already did it with gold, no one will notice/care/protest.

----------


## FSP-Rebel

People and institutions are flocking to bitcoin because it's the newest and hottest asset class in the world. It's going to be a wealth transfer and settlement layer for large mulitnationals as worldwide central bank fiat continues to erode in value over time. In the mean time, it's the best and growing wealth storage protocol for everyone. LTC will be used as a digital payment hub because of its abilities in speed, size and its potential for confidential transactions and atomic swaps w/ bitcoin. Bitcoin's price will continually see higher highs and higher lows (than the previous) as this market keeps maturing and typically people don't spend assets as a currency for daily purchases, hence litecoin. Wait til yall see what litecoin is gonna do over the next 4 months.

----------


## kahless

> Yeah, need like 20 fold increase in users to get there. Then what? Well, at that level of adoption it becomes very likely that everyone will know at least a couple other people that accept bitcoin. Then paying the babysitter in bitcoin is highly likely, paying the lawn guy, etc... At that point nearly every single person will know a "good" person that owns bitcoin, so the "criminal" narrative will be rather weak as well, if the try to spin it that way. 
> 
> What that also means is if the "Goobermint" banned it they will have 10's of millions of middle class and higher americans pissed as $#@! at them. There is no way in hell for example I'd ever vote for politician that even toyed with the concept of banning bitcoin, and there is a good chance I'd donate to their opponent as well. Even if that was Rand Paul (doubt he'd do that). 
> 
> The high transaction cost will likely be mitigated in 2018. There are schnorr signatures which help reduce the size of a transaction, there are the lightning network type proposals, which are very near from exiting testnet status and being deployed in real usage, and there is always the inevitable option of upping the block size, which will happen at some point. Sure it doesn't get us all the way there, but it's not like bitcoin is stuck forever.





> People and institutions are flocking to bitcoin because it's the newest and hottest asset class in the world. It's going to be a wealth transfer and settlement layer for large mulitnationals as worldwide central bank fiat continues to erode in value over time. In the mean time, it's the best and growing wealth storage protocol for everyone. LTC will be used as a digital payment hub because of its abilities in speed, size and its potential for confidential transactions and atomic swaps w/ bitcoin. Bitcoin's price will continually see higher highs and higher lows (than the previous) as this market keeps maturing and typically people don't spend assets as a currency for daily purchases, hence litecoin. Wait til yall see what litecoin is gonna do over the next 4 months.


Maybe some will stick around and wait for transaction costs to be mitigated but large institutions more likely will and already are investing in alternatives like Ripple that have addressed the transaction costs regardless of the coin value.  The Ripple tech - payment system can also process more transactions per second.

I believe Bitcoin to be too volatile for the multi-nationals. Multi-nationals are signing on with Ripple, like UBS, SBI, etc and just last week American Express adopted the Ripple technology.

----------


## dannno

Inb4 $10k

9,925

----------


## The Northbreather

> Inb4 $10k
> 
> 9,925


Hoe 
Leash
It

----------


## dannno

> Bitcoin is not widely used as a medium of exchange, and isn't going to be for the foreseeable future. Why? One can point to the extreme volatility or the high transaction costs, as @Gaddafi Duck mentioned, but there's a more fundamental problem. Fiat is dominant not because of its economic properties, but because of the gun. It might be that bitcoin would eventually prevail against fiat (or even against gold or other former market monies) in a free currency market, but there isn't a free currency market, nor any prospect of one arising in the foreseeable future. If bitcoin became a serious threat to the state's inflationary activities, bitcoin would simply be suppressed, as was gold in the past (and no amount of encryption et al can prevent this, since to be useful as a currency bitcoin must at some point interact with the real world). In any event, bitcoin is now primarily a speculative asset, not a currency, and the bubble will burst long before it becomes a major currency. If you're making $$$ (pun intended) in bitcoin, awesome, but see it for what it is .


You're looking too narrow, it sounds like you are talking about the US rather than the entire world.

It's kinda like one of those balloons you use for balloon animals. There are places where there are problems with local currencies and economies and people are turning to bitcoin. If they try and squeeze it, then that in and of itself will make people realize the power it has which gives it more power and it will show people in other places the same thing and it will pop up somewhere else.

The elite try and control the globe the best they can, but they don't have total control. They are constantly herding.

----------


## RonPaulIsGreat

> Maybe some will stick around and wait for transaction costs to be mitigated but large institutions more likely will and already are investing in alternatives like Ripple that have addressed the transaction costs regardless of the coin value.  The Ripple tech - payment system can also process more transactions per second.
> 
> I believe Bitcoin to be too volatile for the multi-nationals. Multi-nationals are signing on with Ripple, like UBS, SBI, etc and just last week American Express adopted the Ripple technology.


Ripple is centralized, I've no idea why it is even listed on the crypto sites. They can have it. I'll go the gold route before I'd go the ripple route.

----------


## anaconda

$9950

----------


## CCTelander

Cracked $10,000 briefly this morning.

----------


## dannno

> Cracked $10,000 briefly this morning.

----------


## kahless

> Ripple is centralized, I've no idea why it is even listed on the crypto sites. They can have it. I'll go the gold route before I'd go the ripple route.


The distribution of XRP is concentrated in that Ripple holds more than 60% of it but the XRP on the network is not controlled by anyone. Anyone can issue assets on Ripple. It is still a community coin that has value. 

Bitcoin to some extent is also kind of centralized with companies that spent the most money to mine with ASICs having the most control.  With XRP there is no mining since the coin was all pre-mined but the stakeholders can be changed by community agreement.

If Ripple Inc shutdown the consensus ledger/blockchain can continue to operate, unlike a centralized database. Financial institutions and people can and do operate validators in the network, and could stop trusting Ripple's validators as necessary, and just trust each other's validators.

----------


## Krugminator2

Round numbers tend to be pretty key levels especially on more speculative stuff.  Will be watching to see if Bitcoin trades through 10k then rejects hard.

Regardless will take stab short on GBTC at $1600 , which is a stock that holds Bitcoin and is trading at a 60% premium to Bitcoin.

----------


## devil21

I dipped my toe into a bitcoin-based stock for a few days and quickly learned that the stock was a manipulated pump and dump by a few people moving the entire stock.  Lost a few bucks, sold and pretty much confirmed to myself that this whole space is a big scam.  Throw it in the woods.  I'm sticking with what's been money for at least 6000 years.

eta:  Also had an additional confirmation of the controlled propaganda nature of this bitcoin thing when I was banned at another forum from posting on bitcoin threads.  Clearly the main bitcoin pumper on that forum only wants an echo-chamber, not discussion.  Huge red flag.

----------


## kahless

> Round numbers tend to be pretty key levels especially on more speculative stuff.  Will be watching to see if Bitcoin trades through 10k then rejects hard.
> 
> Regardless will take stab short on GBTC at $1600 , which is a stock that holds Bitcoin and is trading at a 60% premium to Bitcoin.


They do not make it easy. I have to give them my information and wait for a phone call.  Is there another way to invest in GBTC?

I am kind of surprised at Bitcoin reaching 10k considering it does not scale as well as many of the other cryptos.  

Long term when it comes to wide scale adoption, something to look at is how they all handle transactions per second.



I believe VISA is 24,000 per second.

----------


## devil21

You pay attention to a chart that can't even spell the heading correctly?  ^^^

----------


## kahless

> You pay attention to a chart that can't even spell the heading correctly?  ^^^


The TPS rates for the difference currencies are fairly well know to anyone who looks. That random google image search chart I picked since I am too lazy to write down the tps for each of them. But you get the point.

btw - that chart misses allot, Bitcoin Cash for example has a higher BTC rate of 24 per second compared to Bitcoin.

----------


## anaconda

> Cracked $10,000 briefly this morning.


Was that a news item or were you looking at an exchange? Which one if so? I read yesterday that it was over $10K in other markets (I think India?).

----------


## TheTexan

> Was that a news item or were you looking at an exchange? Which one if so? I read yesterday that it was over $10K in other markets (I think India?).


It was $17k in Zimbabwe.

I wonder why.

----------


## CCTelander

> Was that a news item or were you looking at an exchange? Which one if so? I read yesterday that it was over $10K in other markets (I think India?).



It was on my CoinCap app, which has it at $10,081.20 right now.

----------


## CCTelander

$10,101.60.

----------


## The Northbreather

And there it is

----------


## dannno

$10,100.00

----------


## TheTexan

Its over 9000

----------


## anaconda

> Its over 9000


The Morning Joe pre-tape scandal has shaken confidence in the dollar, sending BTC to new heights.

----------


## anaconda

> It was $17k in Zimbabwe.
> 
> I wonder why.


Shouldn't it be much higher there? Wait,...unless the long position for Zimbabwe is really no different from the U.S.

----------


## anaconda

Whoa.

$10,326

----------


## anaconda

> To 11000 then 7800 then 17000 then 14000 then 20000
> 
> u heard it here first


Are you still down with this? What's the mass psychology zeitgeist?

----------


## TheTexan

> Are you still down with this? What's the mass psychology zeitgeist?


It will happen exactly as I foretold.  +/- 6000

----------


## anaconda

$10,448

----------


## anaconda

$10,546

----------


## anaconda

$10,645

----------


## anaconda

$10,630

Crashing

----------


## anaconda

$10,737

----------


## anaconda

Where does it go from here?

----------


## anaconda

$10,844

----------


## anaconda

$10,302

The bubble bursts

----------


## kpitcher

many alts have been going crazy. The top 10 coins all went up significantly with ADA going up 372% for the week. 
There are now 16 coins with market caps over 1 billion

----------


## anaconda

$10,646

The days of $10,800 are gone.

----------


## devil21

> Where does it go from here?


Foreign infrastructure building.  Someone's gotta foot the bill for Korean internet lines.

----------


## anaconda

> The days of $10,800 are gone.


And now they're back.

----------


## anaconda

$10,925

----------


## anaconda

Will be interesting to see where and when the big dip occurs.

----------


## Mordan

> $10,630
> 
> Crashing


You are way too emotional.

Just hodl and learn about good alt coins. buy more and more. accumulate.

with just a few grands, my networth is now 98% in crypto. never sold. only spend what i really need.

revenge of the savers.

----------


## Mordan

> I dipped my toe into a bitcoin-based stock for a few days and quickly learned that the stock was a manipulated pump and dump by a few people moving the entire stock.  Lost a few bucks, sold and pretty much confirmed to myself that this whole space is a big scam.  Throw it in the woods.  I'm sticking with what's been money for at least 6000 years.
> 
> eta:  Also had an additional confirmation of the controlled propaganda nature of this bitcoin thing when I was banned at another forum from posting on bitcoin threads.  Clearly the main bitcoin pumper on that forum only wants an echo-chamber, not discussion.  Huge red flag.


You are dumb idiot. You bought a pump and dump stock...

i keep asking you to buy the real thing. the private keys to real coins.

get lost.

you are literally wasting your time on this thread.

----------


## FSP-Rebel



----------


## Krugminator2

> You are dumb idiot. You bought a pump and dump stock...
> 
> i keep asking you to buy the real thing. the private keys to real coins.
> 
> get lost.
> 
> you are literally wasting your time on this thread.



There is a lot more money to be made in those pump and dump stocks.

----------


## Krugminator2

>

----------


## specsaregood

> nice dip. no emotions. I am a veteran. Buying the dips.
> Try transacting in crypto to understand the power. Gov shills on this site doing their propaganda work.



Last time I bought something with bitcoin (merchant using bitpay) it took hours for it to go through and confirm.  Hardly ideal for an online shopping experience where both merchant and customer are used to an immediate approval/denial.

----------


## dannno

> Last time I bought something with bitcoin (merchant using bitpay) it took hours for it to go through and confirm.  Hardly ideal for an online shopping experience where both merchant and customer are used to an immediate approval/denial.


Ya this issue has been hashed out and there are many solutions. 

Bitcoin is more secure than lightcoin, but lightcoin is faster. You could have your savings in bitcoin and your "checking" or spending money in lightcoin. I'm not saying that is how it has to be, or it has to be lightcoin, just giving an example, that has been around for 6 years.....

Secondarily, the btc devs are currently working on something called "lightning pay" which is supposed to help resolve this problem.

Every time I've used bitpay or done bitcoin transactions they have gone through smoothly and relatively quickly, but I do know that it is a problem from time to time.

----------


## Mordan

> He might think you're from Russia.


lol

which has no relevance to the Bitcoin discussion.

----------


## devil21

> He might think you're from Russia.


Asian in general, yes, not necessarily Russian.  So much of the bitcoin market has been from Korea and Japan lately.  Obviously Mordan isn't going to come clean (and his resistance means I wouldn't believe his answer now any way) but when obvious foreigners are trying to recruit American's money into an investment vehicle it looks like another big wealth transfer.  A wealth transfer that _if_ it turns out to be fraudulent would be without recourse.

----------


## ClaytonB

> Ya this issue has been hashed out and there are many solutions. 
> 
> Bitcoin is more secure than lightcoin, but lightcoin is faster. You could have your savings in bitcoin and your "checking" or spending money in lightcoin. I'm not saying that is how it has to be, or it has to be lightcoin, just giving an example, that has been around for 6 years.....
> 
> Secondarily, the btc devs are currently working on something called "lightning pay" which is supposed to help resolve this problem.
> 
> Every time I've used bitpay or done bitcoin transactions they have gone through smoothly and relatively quickly, but I do know that it is a problem from time to time.


Lightning Network will be faster than LTC (effectively instant), denominated in BTC natively, and will have on-chain-equivalent security (in case of attempted fraud, you just close the payment channel and take your BTC back). It is already enabled on the blockchain (SegWit enabled it) but the LN client and peer-to-peer infrastructure is still in development. LN will enable Bitcoin's effective throughput to scale to at least hundreds, maybe thousands of times its current throughput level and it will cut transaction costs accordingly - tx's will be virtually costless.

----------


## TheTexan

> Lightning Network will be faster than LTC (effectively instant), denominated in BTC natively, and will have on-chain-equivalent security (in case of attempted fraud, you just close the payment channel and take your BTC back). It is already enabled on the blockchain (SegWit enabled it) but the LN client and peer-to-peer infrastructure is still in development. LN will enable Bitcoin's effective throughput to scale to at least hundreds, maybe thousands of times its current throughput level and it will cut transaction costs accordingly - tx's will be virtually costless.

----------


## ClaytonB

You can count on it J Law... muah

----------


## anaconda

$11,070

----------


## anaconda

$11,100

----------


## kpitcher



----------


## Krugminator2

It is hard to tell if this is a bubble or not.

----------


## anaconda

$11,778

----------


## anaconda

$11,824

----------


## CCTelander

Briefly went over 12,000 this morning.

----------


## CCTelander

$12,475.90.

----------


## anaconda

$12,290 right now on Coinbase:

https://www.coinbase.com/charts

----------


## RonPaulIsGreat

12700

----------


## Mordan

> Asian in general, yes, not necessarily Russian.  So much of the bitcoin market has been from Korea and Japan lately.  Obviously Mordan isn't going to come clean (and his resistance means I wouldn't believe his answer now any way) but when obvious foreigners are trying to recruit American's money into an investment vehicle it looks like another big wealth transfer.  A wealth transfer that _if_ it turns out to be fraudulent would be without recourse.


look at my post history dummy. I am following Ron Paul since the very beginning. And I posted about Bitcoin here in 2013 and nobody cared.

And yes. Crypto is a big wealth transfer. maybe you should hedge your bets heh ?

----------


## TheTexan

13000

#crashing

----------


## Mordan

> 13000
> 
> #crashing


TheTexan. you keeping joking around. What's your official stance on crypto?

----------


## Danke

...

----------


## devil21

> look at my post history dummy. I am following Ron Paul since the very beginning. And I posted about Bitcoin here in 2013 and nobody cared.


Still avoiding the original question though.  Interesting.




> And yes. Crypto is a big wealth transfer. maybe you should hedge your bets heh ?


LOL.  Sure, I'll jump on the bandwagon, liquidate real assets and give the proceeds to some foreigner instead in exchange for claims to some electrons in computers distributed all over the world.  And I'll do it during the largest geopolitical and economic changes in history.  Sounds like a great financial plan...

----------


## dannno

$13,416

----------


## devil21

> $13,416


Up $450 in about 30 minutes?  Sounds legit.

----------


## Mordan

> Up $450 in about 30 minutes?  Sounds legit.


lol i can already see your brain explode when Bitcoin reaches 20k in a few weeks.

----------


## Mordan

> Still avoiding the original question though.  Interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL.  Sure, I'll jump on the bandwagon, liquidate real assets and give the proceeds to some foreigner instead in exchange for claims to some electrons in computers distributed all over the world.  And I'll do it during the largest geopolitical and economic changes in history.  Sounds like a great financial plan...


OMG. You are officially insane. just hedge with 1% of your net worth

----------


## anaconda

> Up $450 in about 30 minutes?  Sounds legit.


Making up for wild undervaluation.

----------


## FSP-Rebel

Allocating 1% of one's holdings into bitcoin or crypto in general is a very rational thing to do. These are new asset classes and will be the biggest winners in 2018, for starters.

----------


## anaconda

$13453

----------


## axiomata

> Still avoiding the original question though.  Interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL.  Sure, I'll jump on the bandwagon, liquidate real assets and give the proceeds to some foreigner instead in exchange for claims to some electrons in computers distributed all over the world.  And I'll do it during the largest geopolitical and economic changes in history.  Sounds like a great financial plan...


If it makes you feel any better liquidate 1% of your real assets for  FRNs and trade those FRNs for Bitcoin.

----------


## dannno

> lol i can already see your brain explode when Bitcoin reaches 20k in a few weeks.


I wonder if bitcoin can contain itself and stay under $20k before 2018?

----------


## Krugminator2

Futures start trading Sunday night. 90RSI. A short term top is likely by the next two days after the wide range today.  20%+ pullback highly likely from the high of tomorrow.

----------


## dannno

$14,250

----------


## Mordan

many years ago i was rooting for Gold to take over the Dow Jones... 

now Bitcoin will avenge it. i can feel it.

----------


## TheTexan

> TheTexan. you keeping joking around. What's your official stance on crypto?


Crypto's uses are limited to drug dealing, tax evasion, and general anarchism

And thusly should be banned.

Official position.

----------


## FSP-Rebel



----------


## kahless

Coinbase is down.

----------


## dannno

> Coinbase is down.


Coinbase is up

----------


## kahless

> Coinbase is up

----------


## dannno

> Sensitive are we, since I clearly never even inferred anything like that.
> 
> Maybe you were too young to remember when the irrational part of the dot com bubble burst.  The days when everyone and their brother was buying domain names thinking they would be worth a fortune. Domains were over valued but that did not last long and the flow of money to ridiculous business plans stopped, the bubble burst.  Many lost money on their investment, lost jobs and companies closed.


No, I'm not too young to remember the dotcom bubble.. 

My point is bitcoin has gone through this several times before, this isn't some indication that bitcoin is going to burst and go away, it's just natural volatility as the price rises.

----------


## anaconda

$15,770

On the rise.

----------


## kahless

> No, I'm not too young to remember the dotcom bubble.. 
> 
> My point is bitcoin has gone through this several times before, this isn't some indication that bitcoin is going to burst and go away, it's just natural volatility as the price rises.


Domaining and the internet did not go away when the irrational period ended, neither will Bitcoin.  Just saying the period is reminiscent of that.  Is this the irrational period of Bitcoin and it will level out with a more realistic value, it almost seems like it but neither one of us really knows.

----------


## dannno

$16,855

----------


## devil21

> $16,855


Y'all know about the bitfinex Tether scam, right?

eta:  Soooo....when does this thread switch to reporting 'bitcoin futures' instead of bitcoin?  CNBC already reports the futures figures instead of the exchange figures.

----------


## Mordan

> Y'all know about the bitfinex Tether scam, right?


people holding tether will be rekted... 

Bitcoin unaffected. If any, price of bitcoin will increase even more. Tether holders selling at any cost for the most liquid crypto.

Bitcoin shines compared to bad money.

----------


## Krugminator2

> You won't need to put "corrections" in quotes after the next couple of days. We'll see how long that consensus lasts.
> 
> Here is a prediction for all the people who have chased Bitcoin up.


Got the $4k pullback right but was definitely wrong overall. Odds heavily favored it being a top.  It is trading super strong. Probably a push to a new highs.  This thing hasn't had any aggressive selling in a year. Amazing.

----------


## devil21

> people holding tether will be rekted... 
> 
> Bitcoin unaffected. If any, price of bitcoin will increase even more. Tether holders selling at any cost for the most liquid crypto.
> 
> Bitcoin shines compared to bad money.


No, I meant how Tether is being created then directly used to bid up bitcoin, giving the false appearance of dollar investment into bitcoin.

Here's one write-up.  It's catching on elsewhere that there's fraud going on in these markets to get people to buy in with real dollars/currency, chasing after a rising market flooded with "fake" currency and spoof bids.

https://medium.com/@bitfinexed/are-f...x-5de9dd80f330




> If they are in fact wash trading and buying from their own sell orders with money borrowed from their own fraudulent offers backed by fake Tethers, there’s no problem. They can manipulate the price upwards and they all know the money is fake.
> 
> But the money they make from selling Bitcoins on other exchanges, and to sucker OTC buyers, isn’t fake.
> 
> Now, let’s look at the chart for the period during the creation of $80 Million in Tethers.
> 
> {chart}
> Capitulation, and then suddenly… BOOM!
> 
> A $1,000 rally in five days… just days after a bunch of new Tethers were issued, is nothing short of amazing coincidence.


Another, more recent commentary:
https://seekingalpha.com/article/413...bitcoin-tether

This is probably how stock markets _really_ operate, too.  Valueless Fedbux bidding up stocks to sucker in earned dollars.  That also fits with the likelihood the bitcoin mania is a banker ploy to introduce crypto/blockchain to the sheep.  It's the same playbook.  I digress...
eta: "dark money" runs markets - http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-1...ney-runs-world
-----------------

Also interesting how bitcoin stopped the parabolic rise as soon as the CBOE futures market started.  It's been sideways all week.  Y u no want bitcoin so bad now?  Looks like the upward manipulation stopped as soon as a regulated futures market sprung up.  Wish I had cash to short the $#@! out of the futures markets.  When this Tether info goes MSM mainstream, bitcoin will drop like a stone and everyone that runs for the exits will quickly find the exchanges "having technical difficulties" and never be able to cash out.  The cash-out money isn't there and the market was fake.

----------


## anaconda

$18,134

----------


## TheTexan

#crashing #up

----------


## anaconda

$18,540

----------


## anaconda

$18,673

----------


## dannno

$19,189

----------


## anaconda

> #crashing #up


Need aeronautical .gif please

----------


## anaconda

> I wonder if bitcoin can contain itself and stay under $20k before 2018?


The force is strong with dannno..

----------


## anaconda

$19,510

----------


## anaconda

So, if BTC goes up twenty fold for 2017, how many fold would be reasonable to expect for 2018?

----------


## anaconda

I digress, but why couldn't the market price BTC at $19,000 3 weeks ago when it was $8,000? What continually new and apparently unexpected information is forever failing to be recognized by the speculators? Or is the market highly irrational? Perhaps terribly inefficient in some way?

----------


## TheTexan

> I digress, but why couldn't the market price BTC at $19,000 3 weeks ago when it was $8,000? What continually new and apparently unexpected information is forever failing to be recognized by the speculators? Or is the market highly irrational? Perhaps terribly inefficient in some way?


The early BTC investors now driving lambos didnt account for how much hookers & coke they would need

----------


## anaconda

> The early BTC investors now driving lambos didnt account for how much hookers & coke they would need


Wouldn't that create a selloff and downward pressure on the price?

----------


## TheTexan

> Wouldn't that create a selloff and downward pressure on the price?


They need the BTC to be worth more so they are hodling

Until lambos on moon

----------


## anaconda

$19,734

----------


## anaconda

$19,830

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

Ok bitcoin gurus, Karlybee asked me what is the best way to "cash" out bitcoin and I had to say I really don't know.  Someone here must have the best way to do it.  Please educate us...

----------


## kpitcher

> Ok bitcoin gurus, Karlybee asked me what is the best way to "cash" out bitcoin and I had to say I really don't know.  Someone here must have the best way to do it.  Please educate us...


Do you want cash in hand or something else of value? You can convert to gold and silver if you're a metals person. You can convert to gift cards with gyft. 

You can convert right to a bank account with coinbase.

Do you live near any BTC Atms? https://coinatmradar.com/

LocalBitcoins may offer higher cash prices however there may be downsides if the state or feds believe you're violating something.

----------


## devil21

> I digress, but why couldn't the market price BTC at $19,000 3 weeks ago when it was $8,000? What continually new and apparently unexpected information is forever failing to be recognized by the speculators? Or is the market highly irrational? Perhaps terribly inefficient in some way?


Or it's just a fraud.  Gambling is exciting, isn't it?





> Ok bitcoin gurus, Karlybee asked me what is the best way to "cash" out bitcoin and I had to say I really don't know.  Someone here must have the best way to do it.  Please educate us...




OMG. @Carlybee please keep us updated on how it goes!

----------


## Krugminator2

A lot of people just puked their positions out. Price probably rebounds at least $800. But people have a good reason to start thinking about selling. All the people waiting for 20k fell just short and will start exiting. Price took out yesterdays lows after the third push up. Prices are super overextended from key moving averages.  A lot is set up from this to at least be a down week and a trek down to 16k,  If price closes strong today and has an up day tomorrow, I give up.

----------


## dannno

> Ok bitcoin gurus, Karlybee asked me what is the best way to "cash" out bitcoin and I had to say I really don't know.  Someone here must have the best way to do it.  Please educate us...


My advice would be to take some profits and cash out a small portion, maybe by buying some gold or silver, and hodl.

----------


## Carlybee

> Do you want cash in hand or something else of value? You can convert to gold and silver if you're a metals person. You can convert to gift cards with gyft. 
> 
> You can convert right to a bank account with coinbase.
> 
> Do you live near any BTC Atms? https://coinatmradar.com/
> 
> LocalBitcoins may offer higher cash prices however there may be downsides if the state or feds believe you're violating something.


I don’t have much at all. It asks for an address to redeem it to. I don’t know what that means.

----------


## kpitcher

Any guesses on when Crypto currency market caps, according to coinmarketcap.com, hits 1 trillion? 630 billion and climbing fast...

----------


## devil21

> I don’t have much at all. It asks for an address to redeem it to. I don’t know what that means.


Surely those posting pics of bitcoin buying Lamborghinis and questions about $1trillion coin market caps have already helped you with your issue, yes?

----------


## Carlybee

> Surely those posting pics of bitcoin buying Lamborghinis and questions about $1trillion coin market caps have already helped you with your issue, yes?


Right..haha.

No biggie..really would just like to not be associated in any way with any incarnations of BTC-e now or in the future.

----------


## dannno

> Right..haha.
> 
> No biggie..really would just like to not be associated in any way with any incarnations of BTC-e now or in the future.


I would suggest creating a blockchain.info wallet, send the bitcoin to that address, then buy gold or silver at apmex or amagi.. but I wouldn't spend it all.

Edit: you probably have some tokens and wex.nz also, at some point those _should_ be redeemable for 100% face value, you might wanna just hold onto those, could bey very valuable some day. 

AFAIK btc-e didn't do anything illegal, they just had a customer who did, so I wouldn't worry too much about it but I'm not going to advise against getting your crypto off wex.nz

You also probably have some bitcoin cash that you didn't know about?

----------


## Mordan

> Feels like this is headed to the 8-10k range over the next few weeks before you will see price stabilize. That would be a 50% pullback.


lol.

what are your predictions this week?

----------


## Mordan

> Any guesses on when Crypto currency market caps, according to coinmarketcap.com, hits 1 trillion? 630 billion and climbing fast...


dunno. people are throwing money left and right on $#@!coins. this inflates the market cap.. market cap is stupid anyways. I can create a trillion units coin.. give them all to myself and start selling them at 1 dollar. People buy it... 1 trillion market cap. voila.

----------


## Krugminator2

> lol.
> 
> what are your predictions this week?


I got that wrong. I owned it when the price action said I was wrong when it traded sideways. I'll be wrong a lot more in the future too. Fortunately, being right isn't very important to making money.




> Got the $4k pullback right but was definitely wrong overall. Odds heavily favored it being a top. It is trading super strong. Probably a push to a new highs. This thing hasn't had any aggressive selling in a year. Amazing.





Price probably pulls back to around the 10 week average. That's what growth stocks do after a parabolic run. We'll see if it holds for Bitcoin.

----------


## Dark_Horse_Rider

SEC suspended trading ?

----------


## dannno

> SEC suspended trading ?


of CRCW?

----------


## Carlybee

> I would suggest creating a blockchain.info wallet, send the bitcoin to that address, then buy gold or silver at apmex or amagi.. but I wouldn't spend it all.
> 
> Edit: you probably have some tokens and wex.nz also, at some point those _should_ be redeemable for 100% face value, you might wanna just hold onto those, could bey very valuable some day. 
> 
> AFAIK btc-e didn't do anything illegal, they just had a customer who did, so I wouldn't worry too much about it but I'm not going to advise against getting your crypto off wex.nz
> 
> You also probably have some bitcoin cash that you didn't know about?


I had a wallet elsewhere..it finally let me withdraw the btc..but not the bch..oh well better than nothing but it’s a slow process and frNkly a pita.

----------


## anaconda

$16,185

Crashing.

----------


## TheTexan

> $16,185
> 
> Crashing.

----------


## Dark_Horse_Rider

> of CRCW?


Should have known better when I saw the headline. . . had the Bitcoin emblem front and center.

Just enough info to scare the folks that don't know enough about Bitcoin, away from it . . .

----------


## Mordan

> I got that wrong. I owned it when the price action said I was wrong when it traded sideways. I'll be wrong a lot more in the future too. Fortunately, being right isn't very important to making money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Price probably pulls back to around the 10 week average. That's what growth stocks do after a parabolic run. We'll see if it holds for Bitcoin.


to be honest I sold a small percentage after the failed 20k attempt. the more it rises the more a chance for a pullback. will buy more later.


however I am big hodler long term. Crypto is going to destroy banking like the printing press brought information to the people

----------


## devil21

> however I am big hodler long term. Crypto is going to destroy banking like the printing press brought information to the people


Yes, because cashless society and a 100% trackable, controllable and intangible global currency must have the bankers peeing themselves in fear.  

Delusional...

----------


## dannno

> Yes, because cashless society and a 100% trackable, controllable and intangible global currency must have the bankers peeing themselves in fear.  
> 
> Delusional...



The one thing you never mention is that it is voluntary.

----------


## devil21

> The one thing you never mention is that it is voluntary.


I wrote a long, detailed explanation but then deleted it.  There's no point arguing with you anymore since, if after 10 years on RPF and 50k posts, you still havent learned anything, you're not going to start now.  I'll just continue to post for those with ears to hear.

----------


## dannno

> I wrote a long, detailed explanation but then deleted it.  There's no point arguing with you anymore since, if after 10 years on RPF and 50k posts, you still havent learned anything, you're not going to start now.  I'll just continue to post for those with ears to hear.


Lol, wait a minute.. I thought after the first year I learned that the establishment was the enemy, even though I kinda knew that before.

The establishment comes out against Trump, and you back them up and attack Trump.

The establishment comes out against bitcoin, and you back them up and attack Bitcoin.

Notice a trend yet?? And I haven't learned anything??

Then you come up with this whacked out conspiracy theory, which admittedly could be true, but not very likely, imo, that they are purposely against Donald Trump to get people like me to support him, even though I didn't vote for him. And they are pitting the mainstream citizen against bitcoin, allegedly so that people like me, the minority, will support it. Why? I dunno. If they liked the blockchain why not just put it into the banking system that they already control??

If the lessons that I was supposed to learn on RPF is that the establishment is going to attack things that they like, to get me to like them, then why should I have supported Ron Paul to begin with

----------


## devil21

> Lol, wait a minute.. I thought after the first year I learned that the establishment was the enemy, even though I kinda knew that before.
> 
> The establishment comes out against Trump, and you back them up and attack Trump.
> 
> The establishment comes out against bitcoin, and you back them up and attack Bitcoin.


You don't know controlled opposition tactics when you see it?  Here's a hint.  Everything that gets big media coverage is what they really want, by presenting only options that are acceptable to predetermined outcomes!  When sentiment turns anti-establishment, offer controlled "anti-establishment" options like Trump.  As if there's such a thing as an anti-establishment Jesuit trained NYC billionaire...

The rest isn't worth bothering with since it's all extensions of that simple tactic.

----------


## dannno

> You don't know controlled opposition tactics when you see it?  Here's a hint.  Everything that gets big media coverage is what they really want, by presenting only options that are acceptable to predetermined outcomes!  When sentiment turns anti-establishment, offer controlled "anti-establishment" options like Trump.  As if there's such a thing as an anti-establishment Jesuit trained NYC billionaire...
> 
> The rest isn't worth bothering with since it's all extensions of that simple tactic.



Ya, I get it, I just don't agree that is their tactic here, it doesn't seem like their best option and they don't seem to be doing anything to benefit themselves.

Obama was exactly what you described. He was sorta the anti-GW Bush, Cinderella story, comin out of nowhere, beat Hillary the establishment candidate, media plastered him everywhere.. But what they didn't do was ruin all of their credibility overly attacking him constantly. That would have been counter-productive. It would have been counter-productive to go overboard attacking him if they actually wanted him to win... because if he won it makes them look bad, and if he doesn't win then what was the point?

Same thing with bitcoin, the media treats bitcoin more like they treat Ron Paul. They don't cover it unless they have to, after it's had like a 50x run or something. And when they do, it is completely crazy, it's a bubble, only criminals use it, blah blah blah.. 

It just seems like if their goal was to use blockchain technology why would they have the libertarians invest and profit off of it if they are their worst enemy? Why not have the banks do it, which they already control?

----------


## devil21

> Ya, I get it, I just don't agree that is their tactic here, it doesn't seem like their best option and they don't seem to be doing anything to benefit themselves.
> 
> Obama was exactly what you described. He was sorta the anti-GW Bush, Cinderella story, comin out of nowhere, beat Hillary the establishment candidate, media plastered him everywhere.. But what they didn't do was ruin all of their credibility overly attacking him constantly. That would have been counter-productive. It would have been counter-productive to go overboard attacking him if they actually wanted him to win... because if he won it makes them look bad, and if he doesn't win then what was the point?
> 
> Same thing with bitcoin, the media treats bitcoin more like they treat Ron Paul. They don't cover it unless they have to, after it's had like a 50x run or something. And when they do, it is completely crazy, it's a bubble, only criminals use it, blah blah blah.. 
> 
> It just seems like if their goal was to use blockchain technology why would they have the libertarians invest and profit off of it if they are their worst enemy? Why not have the banks do it, which they already control?


Believe what you want.  If you don't know that a cashless, fully trackable monetary substitute has been a major banker goal and bitcoin/crypto just happens to fit the bill and emerge into the mainstream right when the dollar system is being tossed aside then I don't know what else to say.  They run the same playbook for social engineering changes over and over and people never pick up on it.  This is the same playbook.  

Heck, that bitcoin jesus guy Ver even plainly said on CNBC earlier today during Fast Money that he thought insider trading and corruption is fine, a "non-crime", and investors losing their money is their own fault.  Sounds like a banker to me.

----------


## dannno

> Heck, that bitcoin jesus guy Ver even plainly said on CNBC earlier today during Fast Money that he thought insider trading and corruption is fine, a "non-crime", and investors losing their money is their own fault.  Sounds like a banker to me.



I doubt he said corruption is always "fine", it can be fraud.. I always thought that insider trading being ok was the libertarian position tho

----------


## CCTelander

> I doubt he said corruption is always "fine", it can be fraud.. I always thought that insider trading being ok was the libertarian position tho



You thought correctly.

----------


## axiomata

Highly recommend a series of two articles posted at fee.org

https://fee.org/articles/what-bitcoi...ed-tulipmania/

https://fee.org/articles/bitcoin-is-...d-antifragile/

----------


## devil21

> I doubt he said corruption is always "fine", it can be fraud.. I always thought that insider trading being ok was the libertarian position tho


For you maybe.  I think it's theft to materially mislead people with untrue claims (rampant in the crypto space) then profit from the insider knowledge of what the lies are.  It's on the investor when the information is available and is ignored but that's not the case with crypto.  It should be a large red flag when someone called bitcoin jesus says that investors losing their money (to him, presumably) is their own fault and insider trading is fine.  

Besides, I'm well past subscribing to any particular political platform, whether libertarian, republican, democrat or otherwise.  Those are herding techniques used to limit one's thinking.

Purely coincidence I'm sure.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.6d0239a13a4f




> Over the past few weeks, investors have been flocking to bitcoin, the digital currency whose value has soared by about 2,000 percent in the past year alone. And while many economists are cautioning against excitement about bitcoin — which is caught up in what may be one of the biggest speculative bubbles in history — it’s important to note just how revolutionary the technology may be.
> 
> Indeed, the technology underlying bitcoin could fundamentally change the way we think of money.
> 
> It is only a matter of time before paper money is phased out. Sweden, where about 2 percent of value of transactions are done in cash, may eliminate physical money within five years. Most central banks are working on technologies to power a future digital currency.

----------


## kpitcher

> Yes, because cashless society and a 100% trackable, controllable and intangible global currency must have the bankers peeing themselves in fear.  
> 
> Delusional...


Dash, Monero, Zcash are all top 20 crypto coins with market caps in the billions, all with true private sending of coins.  I think true privacy will be a growing concern for people.

Controllable.. perhaps. Although the design was made to avoid central control to be shut down. I haven't seen any country make an effort to shut crypto down to see if it can be achieved or not.

----------


## Krugminator2

> Heck, that bitcoin jesus guy Ver even plainly said on CNBC earlier today during Fast Money that he thought insider trading and corruption is fine, a "non-crime", and investors losing their money is their own fault.  Sounds like a banker to me.





> It should be a large red flag when someone called bitcoin jesus says that investors losing their money (to him, presumably) is their own fault and insider trading is fine.


I doubt anyone would say corruption is fine. Losing money IS an investor's own responsibility. Not everyone is a winner.

Insider trading is a non-crime (that is actually the exact phrase I use as well). Insider trading should be legal.  I've never heard of the guy but he sounds like me.




> Just a horrible human being who has made a living prosecuting people for* non-crimes* like insider trading and playing poker. Authoritarian (redundant) liberals seem really upset about this. I am not sure what the reasoning was, but he is one of the least libertarian people in government.

----------


## devil21

> I doubt anyone would say corruption is fine. Losing money IS an investor's own responsibility. Not everyone is a winner.


Even if it's because they were lied to?  Look, I understand fully that the vast majority of humans are idiots and they make it difficult to be altruistic at times but spreading misinformation (again, the crypto space has been awash in mis/disinfo) with the intent to profit from it is theft.   Never mind order spoofing and other decidedly "bankeresque" tactics.  Everyone on the inside KNOWS these markets are fraudulent ponzis but sell it as something else entirely. 

eta:  Insider trading is a very broad term.  I'd agree with you in some instances but this is about the crypto markets specifically.




> Insider trading is a non-crime (that is actually the exact phrase I use as well). Insider trading should be legal.  I've never heard of the guy but he sounds like me.


Great, I'll remember to never invest any money with you.  Thanks for the heads up.  Do you think ponzi schemes should be legal?

----------


## devil21

> Dash, Monero, Zcash are all top 20 crypto coins with market caps in the billions, all with true private sending of coins.  I think true privacy will be a growing concern for people.
> 
> Controllable.. perhaps. Although the design was made to avoid central control to be shut down. I haven't seen any country make an effort to shut crypto down to see if it can be achieved or not.


Errr....only the largest population country in the world.  China!?!?

----------


## Krugminator2

> Never mind order spoofing and other decidedly "bankeresque" tactics.


1. Order spoofing is illegal. 

2. It makes me nostalgic. I've noticed no one whines about high frequency trading anymore. Zerohedge is awfully silent. You want to know why? The free market took care of it. HFT profits have been reduced to nothing through competition. Competition has forced good behavior and been amazing for the average investor.

----------


## dannno

> Great, I'll remember to never invest any money with you.  Thanks for the heads up.  Do you think ponzi schemes should be legal?


Wait a minute, some libertarians want cannabis to be legal but don't want to use it themselves.

Are you saying that because he believes insider trading should be legal, means that he thinks it is moral and he himself would engage in it?

Are you saying that because a person _says_ they believe insider trading should be illegal, that morally, they are against such behavior?

----------


## devil21

> 1. Order spoofing is illegal.


Hasn't stopped the exchanges from doing it.




> 2. It makes me nostalgic. I've noticed no one whines about high frequency trading anymore. Zerohedge is awfully silent. You want to know why? The free market took care of it. HFT profits have been reduced to nothing through competition. Competition has forced good behavior and been amazing for the average investor.


ZH sure isn't what it used to be.  It was bought out some years ago (as were pretty much all popular alternative info outlets, likely including this one) and doesn't do much but spin MSM narratives and generate click bait threads.  You don't seriously think HFT isn't used anymore, do you?  You don't seriously think the crypto markets aren't HFT driven to some extent themselves, do you?  Everything eventually gets co-opted by the money printer.




> Wait a minute, some libertarians want cannabis to be legal but don't want to use it themselves.


Are you equating cannabis use to ponzi schemes?  I was in the audience during an SC debate when Ron equated heroin use to religious choice (along with the founders of this forum who seem to be loooong gone), as an exercise in liberty, but cannabis=ponzi is a stretch.  Can you imagine Ron replying to a question about cannabis by comparing it to a ponzi scheme then calling it an exercise in personal liberty??

----------


## Mordan

> Lol, wait a minute.. I thought after the first year I learned that the establishment was the enemy, even though I kinda knew that before.
> 
> The establishment comes out against Trump, and you back them up and attack Trump.
> 
> The establishment comes out against bitcoin, and you back them up and attack Bitcoin.
> 
> Notice a trend yet?? And I haven't learned anything??
> 
> Then you come up with this whacked out conspiracy theory, which admittedly could be true, but not very likely, imo, that they are purposely against Donald Trump to get people like me to support him, even though I didn't vote for him. And they are pitting the mainstream citizen against bitcoin, allegedly so that people like me, the minority, will support it. Why? I dunno. If they liked the blockchain why not just put it into the banking system that they already control??
> ...


FUUUUUCKKK YEAHHHHH

DANNO ++++ 11000000000000

----------


## Mordan

thx for posting




> Highly recommend a series of two articles posted at fee.org
> 
> https://fee.org/articles/what-bitcoi...ed-tulipmania/





> But the price action around this isnt what is exciting about Bitcoin and the crypto-currency revolution. What is exciting is that the centralized, bankster-controlled monopoly over the issuance of money itself is finished. Its over. Even if they successfully manage to co-opt some major crypto-currencies or issue their own, Greshams Law will assert itself as capital managers will select a truly decentralized crypto-currency wherein they control, or have the option to control, their own private keys to safely store their wealth while theyll use the government version to pay taxes, etc.

----------


## Mordan

> I haven't seen any country make an effort to shut crypto down to see if it can be achieved or not.


China tried. several times. That's why Japan took most of the trading.

----------


## dannno

> Are you equating cannabis use to ponzi schemes?  I was in the audience during an SC debate when Ron equated heroin use to religious choice, as an exercise in liberty, but cannabis=ponzi is a stretch.  Can you imagine Ron replying to a question about cannabis by comparing it to a ponzi scheme then calling it an exercise in personal liberty??


Uh, no..

https://mises.org/library/insider-trading-really-crime

----------


## kpitcher

> China tried. several times. That's why Japan took most of the trading.


I know China closed some exchanges, they stopped assets moving from bank accounts. They even closed some miners. They did this a few years ago, and they did it again recently. However I see people posting on various forums from China and them describing how they get around their great firewall to still do crypto. While some of the P2P syncing for wallets can be a problem they use online services for active wallets.  They have to jump through more hoops to get their crypto. It's slowed it down but it hasn't stopped it.

----------


## CCTelander

> I know China closed some exchanges, they stopped assets moving from bank accounts. They even closed some miners. They did this a few years ago, and they did it again recently. However I see people posting on various forums from China and them describing how they get around their great firewall to still do crypto. While some of the P2P syncing for wallets can be a problem they use online services for active wallets.  They have to jump through more hoops to get their crypto. It's slowed it down but it hasn't stopped it.



Russia tried to ban cryptos too, and failedv miserably.

----------


## anaconda

$13,745

----------


## Krugminator2

Bitcoin now down 40% from the highs five days ago.

----------


## devil21

At this rate, the thread title will be accurate again in a couple days.  I hope no one here is losing their shirt!  Well, maybe a couple of you I wouldn't mind

----------


## Mordan

> At this rate, the thread title will be accurate again in a couple days.  I hope no one here is losing their shirt!  Well, maybe a couple of you I wouldn't mind


buy some now.. already going back up...

you can't print bitcoins to crash the market forever noob.

----------


## Mordan

> Russia tried to ban cryptos too, and failedv miserably.


Yes Bitcoin parameters work against censorship. (10 minutes, 1mb, POW )

Bitcoin protects all the weak alts who would die under heavy censorship

----------


## anaconda

$15,130

----------


## The Northbreather

I wonder why Gemini took the ticker of its homepage today?

----------


## r3volution 3.0

The average transaction fee for bitcoin is now $54.

It never had much use as a currency (contra a speculative asset); now it has virtually none.

----------


## anaconda

> The average transaction fee for bitcoin is now $54.
> 
> It never had much use as a currency (contra a speculative asset); now it has virtually none.


1.49% on Coinbase to buy or sell.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> 1.49% on Coinbase to buy or sell.


That's only the fee charged by the exchange.

The confirmation fee paid to the miners (currently averaging $54) is additional.

----------


## anaconda

> That's only the fee charged by the exchange.
> 
> The confirmation fee paid to the miners (currently averaging $54) is additional.


Can one hold off on configuring and shop around? Or configure their own? 

$54 for a $16,000 bitcoin is thirty-three one hundredths of one per cent.

----------


## dannno

> The average transaction fee for bitcoin is now $54.
> 
> It never had much use as a currency (contra a speculative asset); now it has virtually none.


A month ago I paid a .50 cent transaction fee, this isn't a permanent fixture, they saw it coming, and already have a solution that has passed the scaling tests that doesn't increase the block size (like BCH does)

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> Can one hold off on configuring and shop around? Or configure their own?


I don't know what you mean.

You can trade BTC all day on an exchange and pay only the fee the exchange charges (some charge nothing I believe, at least for regular users), but these are intra-exchange trades. They're not "real." If you want to cash out and get $$$ in a bank account, or use BTC to buy real goods and services, you have to pay the transaction fee to the miners. Think of a poker game where you pay a small % fee per hand to the dealer (exchange fee) and a whopping fee to the bank when you cash out (miner fee). 




> $54 for a $16,000 bitcoin is thirty-three one hundredths of one per cent.


How many of the average person's daily expenditures is for $16,000?

Imagine if you had to pay a $54 fee every time you used a credit/debit card or cash.

That's why bitcoin isn't being used as a currency (well, one of the reasons).




> A month ago I paid a .50 cent transaction fee,  this isn't a permanent fixture, they saw it coming, and already have a  solution that has passed the scaling tests that doesn't increase the  block size (like BCH does)


"Lightening," yes, that's the hope.

But the reality today is $54 transactions fees.

Major retailers have already jumped ship.

----------


## dannno

> I don't know what you mean.
> 
> You can trade BTC all day on an exchange and pay only the fee the exchange charges (some charge nothing I believe, at least for regular users), but these are intra-exchange trades. They're not "real." If you want to cash out and get $$$ in a bank account, or use BTC to buy real goods and services, you have to pay the transaction fee to the miners. Think of a poker game where you pay a small % fee per hand to the dealer (exchange fee) and a whopping fee to the bank when you cash out (miner fee). 
> 
> 
> 
> How many of the average person's daily expenditures is for $16,000?
> 
> Imagine if you had to pay a $54 fee every time you used a credit/debit card or cash.
> ...


The lightning network uses LTC hot swaps to increase the transaction speed and lower the fees while maintaining integrity of the block.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> The lightning network uses LTC hot swaps to increase the transaction speed and lower the fees while maintaining integrity of the block.


It currently does nothing, because it hasn't been implemented.

----------


## dannno

> It currently does nothing, because it hasn't been implemented.


Ok, so we shouldn't have voted for Trump in the last election because he wasn't President yet

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> _[December 6th]_ Steam is no longer accepting bitcoin as a payment method, game company  and distributor Valve announced today. The company is attributing its  decision to cryptocurrency’s “high fees and volatility.” In a blog post,  Valve explained that bitcoin transaction fees have gone up to nearly  $20 per transaction last week, “compared to roughly $0.20 when we  initially enabled Bitcoin.”


https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/6/1...pto-volatility

With fees nearly tripled since then, there will be others.




> Ok, so we shouldn't have voted for Trump in the last election because he wasn't President yet


I'm saying that Lightening is presently nothing but hype.

----------


## specsaregood

> I'm saying that Lightening is presently nothing but hype.


And it's a stupid solution, an example of engineers thinking how to solve a problem from an engineering perspective and not a real world application perspective.

----------


## devil21

Oh look, it's slowly going back up again.  That's the cue for you true believer hodlers to put _more_ money in so it can be stolen again in a few weeks.

----------


## dannno

> Oh look, it's slowly going back up again.  That's the cue for you true believer hodlers to put _more_ money in so it can be stolen again in a few weeks.



I thought 12k was a pretty good signal to put more money in.

----------


## Madison320

> The average transaction fee for bitcoin is now $54.
> 
> It never had much use as a currency (contra a speculative asset); now it has virtually none.


I agree, all the original uses for Bitcoin are gone. Anonymity, ease of use, cost per transaction. The only thing left is that it's going up. Personally I don't think it will crash until after the holidays but we'll see. 

Think about this. Eventually bitcoin is going to stop going up, the very best case scenario is that it stays even for several years. Suppose 2,3,4,5 years from now it's still around 15k. Why own it then? At that point why not own stocks that pay a dividend or gold that has real value and a floor on its price? 

Anyway that last point was just a random thought. Ultimately my objection to bitcoin is fundamental. It has no value in and of itself.

----------


## Madison320

> At this rate, the thread title will be accurate again in a couple days.


LOL!

I'll say this for Bitcoin. It's never boring.

----------


## The Northbreather

> Oh look, it's slowly going back up again.  That's the cue for you true believer hodlers to put _more_ money in so it can be stolen again in a few weeks.


I'm pretty sure the true believers are experience a net gain as they watch the end of the dollar hegemony. Crypto is only a small part of the event as per Dr Ron Paul...

----------


## devil21

> I'm pretty sure the true believers are experience a net gain as they watch the end of the dollar hegemony. Crypto is only a small part of the event as per Dr Ron Paul...


I'm quite aware of what is going on, thanks.  Probably more so than 99% of the people that post here.  They should be putting their dying dollars into something real, not something that completely and utterly exists in their minds and in the cloud.  Their gains aren't even paper gains.  The gains are purely in their heads and can be manipulated accordingly.

----------


## The Northbreather

> I'm quite aware of what is going on, thanks.  Probably more so than 99% of the people that post here.  They should be putting their dying dollars into something real, not something that completely and utterly exists in their minds and in the cloud.  Their gains aren't even paper gains.  The gains are purely in their heads and can be manipulated accordingly.


I would bet that most of the people in crypto are the types to diversify their holdings when they take profits...

----------


## dannno



----------


## kpitcher

Some of the transaction fee issue may be a plague of suspicious behavior just to increase the fees. It seems like just the thing to do to drop the price of bitcoin. Or perhaps to try to make bitcoin look bad while encouraging the use of other coins.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/analy...es-spike-to-16

----------


## Mordan

> Some of the transaction fee issue may be a plague of suspicious behavior just to increase the fees. It seems like just the thing to do to drop the price of bitcoin. Or perhaps to try to make bitcoin look bad while encouraging the use of other coins.
> 
> https://cointelegraph.com/news/analy...es-spike-to-16


yea lots of miner manipulations are possible.

people have to learn the reasons why a coin is valuable and not take too much heed to the price

----------


## anaconda

$13,910

----------


## devil21

> $13,910


Looks to be tanking again today.  Broke well below 12k mark earlier according to ccn.com live tracker.

----------


## luctor-et-emergo

> 


I would agree with this.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> I agree, all the original uses for Bitcoin are gone. Anonymity, ease of use, cost per transaction. The only thing left is that it's going up. Personally I don't think it will crash until after the holidays but we'll see. 
> 
> Think about this. Eventually bitcoin is going to stop going up, the very best case scenario is that it stays even for several years. Suppose 2,3,4,5 years from now it's still around 15k. Why own it then? At that point why not own stocks that pay a dividend or gold that has real value and a floor on its price? 
> 
> Anyway that last point was just a random thought. Ultimately my objection to bitcoin is fundamental. It has no value in and of itself.


Exactly

People eventually realized they were just tulips (and tulips had a floor).

----------


## Krugminator2

> Exactly
> 
> People eventually realized they were just tulips (and tulips had a floor).










It is hard to know if Bitcoin is a bubble. After all "Bitcoin enthusiasts" and "Analytics geeks" tell me Bitcoin is involved with revolutionary "s-curve adoption."  Maybe we are living in a new paradigm. https://medium.com/@mcasey0827/specu...y-2eed48ecf7da

----------


## dannno

> It is hard to know if Bitcoin is a bubble. After all "Bitcoin enthusiasts" and "Analytics geeks" tell me Bitcoin is involved with revolutionary "s-curve adoption."  Maybe we are living in a new paradigm. https://medium.com/@mcasey0827/specu...y-2eed48ecf7da


Sorta like how the "internet bubble" popped back in 2000 before it actually got really big?

----------


## Krugminator2

> Sorta like how the "internet bubble" popped back in 2000 before it actually got really big?


Yeah. That is the exact comparison I have in my mind.

Why would you put internet bubble in quotes? It WAS a bubble. It did pop. Amazon WAS a bubble. Bitcoin IS a bubble.   There is NEVER a reason to sit through 40% correction in anything let alone a 95% correction in Amazon. Ever. You think George Soros rides out 50-80% drops in anything?

----------


## dannno

> Yeah. That is the exact comparison I have in my mind.
> 
> Why would you put internet bubble in quotes? It WAS a bubble. It did pop. Amazon WAS a bubble. Bitcoin IS a bubble.   There is NEVER a reason to sit through 40% correction in anything let alone a 95% correction in Amazon. Ever. You think George Soros rides out 50-80% drops in anything?


Amazon was about $4.50 some time in 1999, if you bought in and took some profits up at around $100 in 2000 before it popped, then it went back down to $15, and you bought more or held on, it would now be worth over $1,000. That's a pretty good investment, a lot better than a typical mutual fund. Even better than LTC meteoric rise so far which went from around $4 to $400 recently (and has pulled back a bit, but still over $250). Sure it would have been great to do something else with your money from 2000 - 2008, but if you didn't get back in to amazon in time you would have missed it..

Sure, hindsight is great, if you could have sold it all at $100 and waited till it dipped to $15 to buy back in that would have been even better, but to say "oh it's a bubble, I'm going to completely avoid this investment" essentially thinking you know what the market price is going to be the next day is very difficult ahead of time.

So I am going to divert back to the last meme I posted... if you can't handle the 20% drops (or 75% drops like I've been through) then you don't deserve the 600% gains.

----------


## The Northbreather

> Exactly
> 
> People eventually realized they were just tulips (and tulips had a floor).





> I agree, all the originals al uses for Bitcoin are gone. Anonymity, ease of use, cost per transaction. The only thing left is that it's going up. Personally I don't think it will crash until after the holidays but we'll see. 
> 
> Think about this. Eventually bitcoin is going to stop going up, the very best case scenario is that it stays even for several years. Suppose 2,3,4,5 years from now it's still around 15k. Why own it then? At that point why not own stocks that pay a dividend or gold that has real value and a floor on its price? 
> 
> Anyway that last point was just a random thought. Ultimately my objection to bitcoin is fundamental. It has no value in and of itself.


Yeah but you forgot about the part that it has been adopted voluntarily by the market and not forced upon the people by the banks.

Money is whatever people agree to use.

You have a bunch of people who've decided that crypto is preferable to the old central banking cartel controlled money and are trying to compete with it.

That this is happening in our time and has had ANY success is amazing in itself.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> Yeah but you forgot about the part that it has been adopted voluntarily by the market and not forced upon the people by the banks.
> 
> Money is whatever people agree to use.
> 
> You have a bunch of people who've decided that crypto is preferable to the old central banking cartel controlled money and are trying to compete with it.
> 
> That this is happening in our time and has had ANY success is amazing in itself.


Bitcoin has not been adopted as money.

Very few people ever used it as money; now, virtually no one does (high fees, absurd volatility). 

It's beanie babies or tulips, except those things at least had some baseline value as consumer goods.

----------


## The Northbreather

> Bitcoin has not been adopted as money.
> 
> Very few people ever used it as money; now, virtually no one does (high fees, absurd volatility). 
> 
> It's beanie babies or tulips, except those things at least had some baseline value as consumer goods.


I'm having trouble conveying this by writing I guess, I'll try again.

In a general sense:

You literally have millions of people whove decided that this is the new money any are taking power from the old corrupt guard by participating in the crypto thing. The end game (if it makes it that far) is the total discrediting of fiat money and the adoption of money selected by the market.

Whether or not the transition is bloody, I have no idea. I certainly won't be a smooth ride imho.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> I'm having trouble conveying this by writing I guess, I'll try again.
> 
> In a general sense:
> 
> You literally have millions of people whove decided that this is the new money any are taking power from the old corrupt guard by participating in the crypto thing. The end game (if it makes it that far) is the total discrediting of fiat money and the adoption of money selected by the market.
> 
> Whether or not the transition is bloody, I have no idea. I certainly won't be a smooth ride imho.


No, you have millions of people speculating that the price of bitcoin will increase; they're not using it as money.

----------


## specsaregood

> No, you have millions of people speculating that the price of bitcoin will increase; they're not using it as money.


of course they aren't, its all absolutely absurd, but that doesn't mean it won't shoot up to 100k before its all said and done, retarded or not.

----------


## kpitcher



----------


## anaconda

> 


*LOL*

----------


## anaconda

> I'm having trouble conveying this by writing I guess, I'll try again.
> 
> In a general sense:
> 
> You literally have millions of people whove decided that this is the new money any are taking power from the old corrupt guard by participating in the crypto thing. The end game (if it makes it that far) is the total discrediting of fiat money and the adoption of money selected by the market.
> 
> Whether or not the transition is bloody, I have no idea. I certainly won't be a smooth ride imho.


Thread Winner^

----------


## anaconda

> Looks to be tanking again today.  Broke well below 12k mark earlier according to ccn.com live tracker.


$14,274

----------


## devil21

> I'm having trouble conveying this by writing I guess, I'll try again.
> 
> In a general sense:
> 
> You literally have millions of people whove decided that this is the new money any are taking power from the old corrupt guard by participating in the crypto thing. The end game (if it makes it that far) is the total discrediting of fiat money and the adoption of money selected by the market.
> 
> Whether or not the transition is bloody, I have no idea. I certainly won't be a smooth ride imho.


Millions?  Really?  Are you including people in countries other than the US?  

Never mind that they're deciding to adopt the banker's new fake currency like good sheeple do.





> $14,274


Such a stable store of value

----------


## timosman

> Such a stable store of value


You clearly have problems seeing the future potential. i firmly believe the future price is going to be:

----------


## anaconda

> Such a stable store of value


A fourteen fold annual increase in value is certainly nothing any reasonable person would tolerate from their store of value. Far too unstable.

----------


## Mordan

> No, you have millions of people speculating that the price of bitcoin will increase; they're not using it as money.


you are blind.

I use crypto as money. store of value. means of exchange. unit of account.

You are a stupid dumb old hillary shill. You cannot possibly see it because you work for the current system. 

But I use crypto as money and so do many people around the world. Younger people than myself who understand the current system $#@!s them.

Anyone who used crypto knows what I am talking about. The conversion rate is 99%

----------


## Mordan

> of course they aren't, its all absolutely absurd, but that doesn't mean it won't shoot up to 100k before its all said and done, retarded or not.


it is wrong.

Store of value: my crypto is gaining value. my wealth is preserved.

Means of Exchange: I can exchange crypto for services and goods. Right now. 

Unit of account: I value alt coins in satoshis. BTC is de facto the standard unit of account to value other crypto currencies. All exchanges value crypto assets relative to BTC. So there you have it.

You don't want to see it. But Bitcoin is money.

----------


## dannno

> Millions?  Really?  Are you including people in countries other than the US?



I've explained this to you like 5 times.. every time anybody makes the "The govt. will make it illegal!!" argument, it's like, who cares?? Bitcoin is a global phenomenon, if one government outlaws it, then it is like a animal balloon it will just make it that much more powerful everywhere else.. Plus, it's really difficult to outlaw, China has already tried..

So the question to you is, why the $#@! WOULDN'T you include people in countries other than the US?

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> you are blind.
> 
> I use crypto as money. store of value. means of exchange. unit of account.
> 
> You are a stupid dumb old hillary shill. You cannot possibly see it because you work for the current system. 
> 
> But I use crypto as money and so do many people around the world. Younger people than myself who understand the current system $#@!s them.
> 
> Anyone who used crypto knows what I am talking about. The conversion rate is 99%

----------


## devil21

> I've explained this to you like 5 times.. every time anybody makes the "The govt. will make it illegal!!" argument, it's like, who cares?? Bitcoin is a global phenomenon, if one government outlaws it, then it is like a animal balloon it will just make it that much more powerful everywhere else.. Plus, it's really difficult to outlaw, China has already tried..
> 
> So the question to you is, why the $#@! WOULDN'T you include people in countries other than the US?


Dannno, were you always a shill for globalists or was it only since Trump became President of the corporation?  Obviously you're super psyched about testing their new global currency and supporting the Orange Obama so one has to wonder.





> A fourteen fold annual increase in value is certainly nothing any reasonable person would tolerate from their store of value. Far too unstable.


Is that supposed to prove that it's a stable store of value?  Up 14x in months and now swings 10-20% daily?  Who would possibly accept a currency that moves 20% in a single day??

----------


## heavenlyboy34

Dang. At last, a thread on which both extremes are stupid and I'm a *gasp* moderate.  I like Doug Casey's take on this quite a lot:

https://www.caseyresearch.com/doug-c...-love-bitcoin/



> Bitcoin is up 495% this year. Ethereum, another major  cryptocurrency, is up 3,507% since the start of the year. Smaller  cryptos have soared more than 10,000%.
>   When you see gains like that, it’s natural to think that you missed  out. I even felt this way for the longest time…that is, until I talked  to Doug Casey.
>   You see, a few weeks ago, I called Doug to see what he thinks about  cryptos. He told me why Bitcoin is money. He told me why the crypto  market’s about to get a lot bigger. He even told me why Bitcoin could  soon hit $50,000… That’s eight times higher than where it trades today.
>   After that conversation, I became convinced that cryptos are the real deal. I even just bought some Bitcoin myself.
>   Of course, I realize that not everyone’s got a legendary speculator  on speed dial. So over the next two days, I’m sharing a brand-new essay  from Doug. In it, he explains why the crypto boom has a long way to go.
>  *By Doug Casey, founder, Casey Research*
>  In this article, I’d like to explain how I learned to love Bitcoin.  Why it’s a wonderful thing. Its potential as a speculation. How the  government is going to co-opt it. And how this is all likely to end.
>   I was first introduced to Bitcoin several years ago in Cafayate,  Argentina. A young Belgian guy came to visit, I bought him lunch, and we  discussed Bitcoin. He was a very early enthusiast. He gave me a  physical Bitcoin as a souvenir. They’re now collectibles, but the  digital codes are inscribed on them. I still have that Bitcoin. It was  worth $13 at the time.
>   I wish I had listened to his argument more carefully, because I  could have made millions. Over 300-1 over just a few years… that’s rare  indeed. I was inclined towards it philosophically, but outsmarted myself  on an investment level. Because Bitcoin was pitched to me as an  alternative currency, and I failed to see all of its advantages in that  role.
> ...

----------


## Mordan

> Dang. At last, a thread on which both extremes are stupid and I'm a *gasp* moderate.  I like Doug Casey's take on this quite a lot:
> 
> https://www.caseyresearch.com/doug-c...-love-bitcoin/


Bitcoin is money. I don't see how you can say the contrary and stay intellectually honest.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> Yeah. That is the exact comparison I have in my mind.
> 
> Why would you put internet bubble in quotes? It WAS a bubble. It did pop. Amazon WAS a bubble. Bitcoin IS a bubble.   There is NEVER a reason to sit through 40% correction in anything let alone a 95% correction in Amazon. Ever. You think George Soros rides out 50-80% drops in anything?





> Amazon was about $4.50 some time in 1999, if you bought in and took some profits up at around $100 in 2000 before it popped, then it went back down to $15, and you bought more or held on, it would now be worth over $1,000. That's a pretty good investment, a lot better than a typical mutual fund. Even better than LTC meteoric rise so far which went from around $4 to $400 recently (and has pulled back a bit, but still over $250). Sure it would have been great to do something else with your money from 2000 - 2008, but if you didn't get back in to amazon in time you would have missed it..
> 
> Sure, hindsight is great, if you could have sold it all at $100 and waited till it dipped to $15 to buy back in that would have been even better, but to say "oh it's a bubble, I'm going to completely avoid this investment" essentially thinking you know what the market price is going to be the next day is very difficult ahead of time.
> 
> So I am going to divert back to the last meme I posted... if you can't handle the 20% drops (or 75% drops like I've been through) then you don't deserve the 600% gains.


If we use the .com bubble as an example, before the crypto bubble is done we will have 10s of thousands of crypto currencies and companies claiming to be involved in crypto currencies.

And when it all collapses, only a few will survive.

----------


## dannno

> If we use the .com bubble as an example, before the crypto bubble is done we will have 10s of thousands of crypto currencies and companies claiming to be involved in crypto currencies.
> 
> And when it all collapses, only a few will survive.



There are only a few tech companies?

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> There are only a few tech companies?


The vast majority of the .com companies disappeared and went to zero.

Obviously the established real companies doing real business survived, like IBM or HP, but even some of the established, real product producing companies disappeared.

----------


## devil21

> If we use the .com bubble as an example, before the crypto bubble is done we will have 10s of thousands of crypto currencies and companies claiming to be involved in crypto currencies.
> 
> And when it all collapses, only a few will survive.


And those survivors will be the ones hand-picked to survive by the bankers, like deep state controlled Amazon.  I'd bet it's not going to be the ones being pimped by MSM financial media either.  That goes against everything the bankers have done.  The key to staying in power is to not let the slaves out of their holes once their usefulness has expired and of course "bitcoin billionaire" profanes would be considered slaves climbing out of their holes.  History shows all it takes is some shekels to get weak people to abandon their principles and sell out everyone else, a la Judas.

----------


## timosman

> There are only a few *profitable* tech companies?


ftfy

----------


## anaconda

> Who would possibly accept a currency that moves 20% in a single day??


Someone whose fiat might go to zero at any moment?

----------


## devil21

> Someone whose fiat might go to zero at any moment?


Errr....isn't it denominated in fiat?  The entire thread is about the fiat price!

----------


## anaconda

> Errr....isn't it denominated in fiat?  The entire thread is about the fiat price!


We could measure it's exchange rate against many things. What we know is that it has increasingly required more and more USD's to buy a BTC. USD's have increasingly become worth less compared to BTC, therefore (other fiat currencies have become worth less comparatively as well). Fear of currency crises is certainly a component of demand for BTC. So in this context it is most certainly perceived as a store of value. And I suspect it would be a profound one amidst a currency crisis. At that point, however, it would not be valued in USD. Other agreed upon baskets of goods would become the exchange rate. The political and macroeconomic uncertainties are diverse and dynamic, so the BTC exchange rates remain volatile as the world stage unfolds. The fact that BTC has increased dramatically against government fiat seems highly rational to me.

----------


## dannno

Now over $2 billion..




> *US government misses out on $600 million payday by selling dirty bitcoins too early
> *
> U.S. authorities shut down dark web marketplace Silk Road in 2013 and seized founder Ross William Ulbricht's bitcoins.Ulbricht withdrew his claim to the digital coins last week



https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/03/us-government-misses-out-on-600-million-payday-by-selling-dirty-bitcoins-too-early.html





It would be really awesome if some of the people who profited off buying his bitcoin gave some back to him if/when he was able to get out, or maybe get him a good lawyer for an appeal.. I don't think they are morally obligated, the government is the one who stole them from him, but it would be pretty cool if they did still.

----------


## devil21

> We could measure it's exchange rate against many things. What we know is that it has increasingly required more and more USD's to buy a BTC. USD's have increasingly become worth less compared to BTC, therefore (other fiat currencies have become worth less comparatively as well). Fear of currency crises is certainly a component of demand for BTC. So in this context it is perceived as a store of value. And I suspect it would be a profound one amidst a currency crisis. At that point, however, it would not be valued in USD. Other agreed upon baskets of goods would become the exchange rate.


Goods...like real stuff, you mean?  Like physical gold?  Things that actually exist?  Yeah.  So why add another "middle man" to complicate exchange of value and give new skim opportunities (like $50 fees that bitcoin is now known for) when it's not necessary except to he who regulates the exchange?

----------


## anaconda

> Goods...like real stuff, you mean?  Like physical gold?  Things that actually exist?  Yeah.  So why add another "middle man" to complicate exchange of value and give new skim opportunities (like $50 fees that bitcoin is now known for) when it's not necessary except to he who regulates the exchange?


Yes, any useful measure is both likely and feasible. In a currency crisis there will be no way or reason to value anything against a currency undergoing Weimar style hyperinflation. The alternative might be Toyota Camrys, half gallons of milk, or more likely some more general and comprehensive "basket of goods" that the interwebs quickly decides upon. There may even be several, but they will quickly sync to parity. Arbitrage gains may be temporarily possible while adjustments occur.

The middleman facilitates, rather than "complicates" the exchange. The middleman provides services such as locating and pairing buyers and sellers, linking clients with checking accounts, and so forth.

----------


## merkelstan

Bitcoin is now occupied territory.  Go with alternatives like Dash, Zcoin, Bitcion Cash, etc.  Be careful

----------


## anaconda

> Bitcoin is now occupied territory.  Go with alternatives like Dash, Zcoin, Bitcion Cash, etc.  Be careful


Would you please explain "occupied territory" and its implications? Thanks.

----------


## TheTexan

> Goods...like real stuff, you mean?  Like physical gold?  Things that actually exist?  Yeah.  So why add another "middle man" to complicate exchange of value and give new skim opportunities (like $50 fees that bitcoin is now known for) when it's not necessary except to he who regulates the exchange?


You're right, using gold as a means of exchange is so much more practical than crypto

Especially for online purchases

----------


## Mordan

> Goods...like real stuff, you mean?  Like physical gold?  Things that actually exist?  Yeah.  So why add another "middle man" to complicate exchange of value and give new skim opportunities (like $50 fees that bitcoin is now known for) when it's not necessary except to he who regulates the exchange?


you are so misinformed. it is sad. Bitcoin fees were under attack.

----------


## devil21

> you are so misinformed. it is sad. Bitcoin fees were under attack.


Stop with the personal attacks masquerading as replies.  It's a sign of ignorance.





> You're right, using gold as a means of exchange is so much more practical than crypto
> 
> Especially for online purchases


A digital gold standard would work just fine for online commerce.  Online is still only a small percentage of overall transactions, however.

----------


## dannno

> A digital gold standard would work just fine for online commerce.


Tried that.. it's centralized, way too easy to steal the gold (governments, etc)

It would definetely be an ongoing problem.

----------


## devil21

> Tried that.. it's centralized, way too easy to steal the gold (governments, etc)
> 
> It would definetely be an ongoing problem.


So, since a gold standard was abandoned due to too much money printing, abandon it for a digital, endless supply of entirely non-existent "coins" solution that relies completely on infrastructure controlled by TPTB instead?  Talk about jumping from the pan into the fire.

Smart people should be converting bitcoin profits into physical metals right now.  Price suppression of metals is about to end.  I've thought that the price of bitcoin is actually the price of physical GOLD but the bankers would rather you dump your soon-to-be-devalued dollars into another vaporware currency instead of real, hard money.

----------


## anaconda

$13,974

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

Good thing I sold all my coin when the bubble burst.  I got out with a small profit and now I'm waiting until I see what looks like the new bottom to buy back in.

----------


## anaconda

> Good thing I sold all my coin when the bubble burst.  I got out with a small profit and now I'm waiting until I see what looks like the new bottom to buy back in.


Kudos for gaming the dip. Yet, BTC is still up about 75% just since Thanksgiving.

----------


## anaconda

> Tried that.. it's centralized, way too easy to steal the gold (governments, etc)
> 
> It would definetely be an ongoing problem.


+ Rep

----------


## anaconda

$14,621

----------


## anaconda

$13,980

----------


## TheTexan

Time for Ripple lambos

----------


## devil21

> Bitcoin is money. I don't see how you can say the contrary and stay intellectually honest.


Just STFU and stop posting.  For real.  Just stop.

----------


## anaconda

$12,917

----------


## anaconda

> Bitcoin is money. I don't see how you can say the contrary and stay intellectually honest.


It can be exchanged for USD the same way that Yen or Francs can. Someone who owns BTC can make a few mouse clicks and make purchases 48 hours later. Sounds like money to me.

----------


## kpitcher

Alts are going crazy this weekend. ADA moved into the #5 coin spot. Even the small cap coins are on a big boost. I'm not sure what to credit this to - moving out of BTC at the end of the year to find the next moon? New players in the game realizing there are lots of alts out there? McAfee making his coin choices have massive interest and alts are growing as a whole?

----------


## Mordan

people don't understand $#@! about crypto.

they just buy cheap alts because it has more upside... there is a massive bubble in alts. people think Bitcoin is the bubble. but they don't see the whole picture.

----------


## Crashland

> people don't understand $#@! about crypto.
> 
> they just buy cheap alts because it has more upside... there is a massive bubble in alts. people think Bitcoin is the bubble. but they don't see the whole picture.



A lot of people see a crypto is only $0.05 per coin so it must be cheap. Under $1 is getting in on the ground floor! It's like buying a stock because of the price per share with no regard for how many shares outstanding.

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> people don't understand $#@! about crypto.
> 
> they just buy cheap alts because it has more upside... there is a massive bubble in alts. people think Bitcoin is the bubble. but they don't see the whole picture.


I don't even understand crypto and I've been involved in computing from almost the beginning.  Started programming in the 80's and still do all our office tech (and home of course).  I trade in crypto as a hobby (not very good at it) but I really don't understand the blockchain and the encryption.  I'm getting old and slow though so that could have something to do with it...

----------


## Mordan

> I don't even understand crypto and I've been involved in computing from almost the beginning.  Started programming in the 80's and still do all our office tech (and home of course).  I trade in crypto as a hobby (not very good at it) but I really don't understand the blockchain and the encryption.  I'm getting old and slow though so that could have something to do with it...


i am a computer engineer..

the best little known coin i know is Pascal Coin. You can only buy it on Poloniex. Get a wallet http://www.pascalcoin.org/#wallets

The wallet is ugly but it works like a charm and Pascal Coin has solved the scalability issue with a smart design choice. Few people already know that. 
For me right now Pascal coin has a huge upside potential. it is not a $#@! coin. I have been a bitcoiner and maximalist. but coins like Pascal made me reconsider.
trust me. buy 100 pascal and HODL. you will thank me.

----------


## devil21

> It can be exchanged for USD the same way that Yen or Francs can. Someone who owns BTC can make a few mouse clicks and make purchases 48 hours later. Sounds like money to me.


"Buying" something with bitcoin is the same as claiming you are buying something with a share of Intel stock.


LOL@jawboning bitcoin back up with "libertarian"  Peter Thiel today.  Looked to be faltering and then wham, Peter Thiel is trotted out to push it back up.  He's a libertarian, dontcha know?  A libertarian Bilderberger that develops big brother software for the NSA.  But he's a libertarian so buy some more bitcoin.  Cuz libertarian.  Libertarian.  

And bitcoin is so not an NSA creation.  Cuz libertarians.

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> i am a computer engineer..
> 
> the best little known coin i know is Pascal Coin. You can only buy it on Poloniex. Get a wallet http://www.pascalcoin.org/#wallets
> 
> The wallet is ugly but it works like a charm and Pascal Coin has solved the scalability issue with a smart design choice. Few people already know that. 
> For me right now Pascal coin has a huge upside potential. it is not a $#@! coin. I have been a bitcoiner and maximalist. but coins like Pascal made me reconsider.
> trust me. buy 100 pascal and HODL. you will thank me.


Hmmmm. Pascal was my favorite programming language back in the day.  I'll have to give it a try.  Do I have to buy Pascal coin with another crypto?

----------


## dannno

> Hmmmm. Pascal was my favorite programming language back in the day.  I'll have to give it a try.  Do I have to buy Pascal coin with another crypto?


You will need to create an account at poloniex then send some bitcoin or litecoin or something over to your account at poloniex and trade that for Pascal.

----------


## Mordan

> Hmmmm. Pascal was my favorite programming language back in the day.  I'll have to give it a try.  Do I have to buy Pascal coin with another crypto?


1 buy btc. send btc to poloniex. buy pasc.
2 install wallet.. launch.. synch in a few minutes. go to menu Project -> Private Keys. Select wallet. Press button Export Public Key (should be in your clipboard)
3 install telegram. go to channel https://t.me/pascalcoinofficial enter the command /getpasa copypasteyourpublickeyherewithaspace after getpasa

This faucet will link a free account to the public key of your wallet. Check box Explore Account with one of my Wallet Keys. Refresh You will soon see the account.

Withdraw PASC coins to the account number from Poloniex. No need for Payloads.

IF you want to buy more PASA.. go to https://www.pascwallet.com/ there is a small market for those.  but you will have to buy them.

----------


## Mordan



----------


## specsaregood

ETH continuing its bull run, 900down, 1K next up.

----------


## kpitcher

> ETH continuing its bull run, 900down, 1K next up.


Cardano is gaining fast on ETH, it's up to 27 Billion. It has a co-founder of Eth running it and their claim is smart contracts done right. It's up 15X from November.

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/cardano/

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> It can be exchanged for USD the same way that Yen or Francs can. Someone who owns BTC can make a few mouse clicks and make purchases 48 hours later. Sounds like money to me.


BTC doesn't have durability the way physical money does. It's currency, not money.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> *"Buying" something with bitcoin is the same as claiming you are buying something with a share of Intel stock.*
> 
> 
> LOL@jawboning bitcoin back up with "libertarian"  Peter Thiel today.  Looked to be faltering and then wham, Peter Thiel is trotted out to push it back up.  He's a libertarian, dontcha know?  A libertarian Bilderberger that develops big brother software for the NSA.  But he's a libertarian so buy some more bitcoin.  Cuz libertarian.  Libertarian.  
> 
> And bitcoin is so not an NSA creation.  Cuz libertarians.


Using a currency or medium of exchange of some sort to facilitate the exchange of goods/services is in fact what we refer to as "buying" in Murica.

----------


## dannno

> Cardano is gaining fast on ETH, it's up to 27 Billion. It has a co-founder of Eth running it and their claim is smart contracts done right. It's up 15X from November.
> 
> https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/cardano/


I heard EOS may have a run against ETH as well. 

Have you looked into IOTA? It's a coin based on the internet of things, and while people like AF may be turned off at first it looks to be about securing and privatizing data in the IOT (internet of things) paradigm.

----------


## dannno



----------


## TheTexan

> I heard EOS may have a run against ETH as well. 
> 
> Have you looked into IOTA? It's a coin based on the internet of things, and while people like AF may be turned off at first it looks to be about securing and privatizing data in the IOT (internet of things) paradigm.


Thats awesome, my wife can earn her allowance automatically based on her vacuum cleaner, dishwasher, stove usage data.

In addition to her other chores ofc

----------


## dannno

> Thats awesome, my wife can earn her allowance automatically based on her vacuum cleaner, dishwasher, stove usage data.
> 
> In addition to her other chores ofc


Yes, and the government won't be able to come after you for paying her slave wages because it's all encrypted.

----------


## devil21

> Using a currency or medium of exchange of some sort to facilitate the exchange of goods/services is in fact what we refer to as "buying" in Murica.


If you direct Fidelity to convert a share of Intel stock to dollars then Fidelity remits those dollars to a seller of a trinket, you would define the share of Intel stock as "currency" or a "medium of exchange", instead of a security?  Interesting.  I consider something as currency when it is DIRECTLY exchangeable for goods/services and does not require conversions (different national currencies notwithstanding).

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> If you direct Fidelity to convert a share of Intel stock to dollars then Fidelity remits those dollars to a seller of a trinket, you would define the share of Intel stock as "currency" or a "medium of exchange", instead of a security?  Interesting.  I consider something as currency when it is DIRECTLY exchangeable for goods/services and does not require conversions (different national currencies notwithstanding).


A trinket is not a medium of exchange(except in primitive bartering economies, perhaps, but that's not within the scope of this thread). Surely you must be joking me with this entire post.

----------


## devil21

> A trinket is not a medium of exchange(except in primitive bartering economies, perhaps, but that's not within the scope of this thread). Surely you must be joking me with this entire post.


You do understand that no retailer accepts bitcoin directly as payment, yes?  They all employ an exchange like Bitpay that converts bitcoin units to dollar units, then the exchange remits dollars to the retailer.  The retailer is paid in dollars, not bitcoin.  Saying you are buying from a retailer using bitcoin is like saying you are buying from a retailer using an Intel share.  The trinket is what the retailer ships you after receiving the dollar units.

----------


## kpitcher

> You do understand that no retailer accepts bitcoin directly as payment, yes?  They all employ an exchange like Bitpay that converts bitcoin units to dollar units, then the exchange remits dollars to the retailer.  The retailer is paid in dollars, not bitcoin.  Saying you are buying from a retailer using bitcoin is like saying you are buying from a retailer using an Intel share.  The trinket is what the retailer ships you after receiving the dollar units.


Some retailers do but yes, overall it's still very rare until a complete supply chain can be entirely paid in crypto. Overstock is keeping 50% of all bitcoin payments as bitcoin, up from the 10% it used to hold.

----------


## Mordan

> You do understand that no retailer accepts bitcoin directly as payment, yes?  They all employ an exchange like Bitpay that converts bitcoin units to dollar units, then the exchange remits dollars to the retailer.  The retailer is paid in dollars, not bitcoin.  Saying you are buying from a retailer using bitcoin is like saying you are buying from a retailer using an Intel share.  The trinket is what the retailer ships you after receiving the dollar units.


some do. stop lying. porn web sites sure do.

----------


## specsaregood

> ETH continuing its bull run, 900down, 1K next up.


id be surprised if it doesn't crack 1k today.

----------


## devil21

> some do. stop lying. porn web sites sure do.


Who pays for porn anymore?

----------


## kpitcher

> Who pays for porn anymore?


Enough for it to still exist : 

" LiveJasmin is the largest internet cam host in the world. Between 35 and 40 million users visit it daily, and at any given moment, there are 2,000 models live online. It is not hard to understand how the web-cam industry, overall, generated an estimated $2-3bn in 2016"

----------


## devil21

> Enough for it to still exist : 
> 
> " LiveJasmin is the largest internet cam host in the world. Between 35 and 40 million users visit it daily, and at any given moment, there are 2,000 models live online. It is not hard to understand how the web-cam industry, overall, generated an estimated $2-3bn in 2016"


Fine, you win.  We can use bitcoin to watch Mordan's balkan girlfriend diddle herself for 15 minutes.  Not sure how that's a "retailer" (there's a tail joke in here somewhere) by definition, however.

----------


## specsaregood

> id be surprised if it doesn't crack 1k today.


https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/04/et...he-first-time/



> *Ethereum breaks new record by reaching $1,000 for the first time*
> 
> Ethereum tokens (ethers) have reached $1,000 on multiple major exchanges for the first time ever. This is an all-time high and the result of a multiple-day rally. The total market capitalization of ethers currently available is now $100 billion.
> 
> And yet, ethers only represent around 13 percent of all cryptocurrencies out there. 2017 may have been a huge year for cryptocurrencies across the board, but one of the most important stories is that there are now many different tokens worth tens of billions of dollars when it comes to market capitalization.
> 
> One ether was worth between $700 and $800 for most of the second half of December. But over the past seven days, ethers have been trading up 40 percent.
> 
> Despite this incredible performance, Ripple is still the second biggest cryptocurrency by market capitalization. Somehow, Ripple has been up over 1,300 percent over the last 30 days. Ethereum has been lagging behind Ripple because of this rally.
> ...

----------


## anaconda

$16,499

----------


## kahless

Uh oh.

Visa bans several cryptocurrency-backed cards, leaving thousands in the lurch
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/05/visa...ked-cards.html

----------


## dannno

> Uh oh.
> 
> Visa bans several cryptocurrency-backed cards, leaving thousands in the lurch
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/05/visa...ked-cards.html


Meh, they aren't losing anything..




> "As a licensed E-Money Institution, WaveCrest is required to safeguard funds to cover all of its issued electronic money and we can confirm that these funds are safe and available for redemption through other channels," the statement read.

----------


## kahless

> Meh, they aren't losing anything..
> 
> [/FONT][/COLOR]


I like the idea of using a Visa card for crypto, this is going backwards.  The cartel is fighting back it seems.

----------


## dannno

> I like the idea of using a Visa card for crypto, this is going backwards.  The cartel is fighting back it seems.


Seems to be overblown, just one company and they can transfer the service over apparently.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/com...s_down_theyre/

This doesn't make people pissed at crypto, it makes people pissed at the banks. That's why we are doing this, remember?

----------


## dannno

This one still works, no?

https://www.shiftpayments.com/card

----------


## The Northbreather

> Uh oh.
> 
> Visa bans several cryptocurrency-backed cards, leaving thousands in the lurch
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/05/visa...ked-cards.html


Every time an accomplice of the system panics, an angel gets his wings, and the opposition grows.

----------


## kpitcher

> This one still works, no?
> 
> https://www.shiftpayments.com/card


Hope so, just paid $10 for one earlier today. It tied in to coinbase without a problem so I assume it'll be fine



Bitcoin jumped $2000 so far today. Of course this is really putting a hit on alt coins, significant drops

----------


## kahless

> Seems to be overblown, just one company and they can transfer the service over apparently.
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/com...s_down_theyre/
> 
> This doesn't make people pissed at crypto, it makes people pissed at the banks. That's why we are doing this, remember?


True and I believe it will not be for long before they start banning other cards.  You know it is coming.  Do you really think government is going to allow this to go one for much longer? 

Cryptos will survive and VISA will not be an issue once Bitcoin and others is fully regulated with every transaction tied to a person with a government ID.

Did anyone here forget that to be a legal crypto-currency you are required to pay the state 5k which they may or may not approve your license, non-refundable.  This leaves friends of state politicians the only ones being approved while the rest migrate to crypto friendly states until they do the same.  The guy that wrote the regulation for NY left to advise on how to navigate the licensing process before taking a job with Ripple.  Hmmm.

----------


## dannno

> Cryptos will survive and VISA will not be an issue once Bitcoin and others is fully regulated with every transaction tied to a person with a government ID.


The bitcoin network does not require every transaction to be tied to a person with a government ID.

----------


## kahless

> The bitcoin network does not require every transaction to be tied to a person with a government ID.


It will eventually be required which was my point of where I think we are headed.  I would not like that anymore than you.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> Some retailers do but yes, overall it's still very rare until a complete supply chain can be entirely paid in crypto. Overstock is keeping 50% of all bitcoin payments as bitcoin, up from the 10% it used to hold.


...for bill-paying or for speculating?

I'd assume the latter, as with virtually every other bitcoin user.

----------


## dannno

> It will eventually be required which was my point of where I think we are headed.  I would not like that anymore than you.


Right, sort of like how when I was in college they required that we not use cannabis at all or drink alcohol before we were 21.. yet everybody had a fridge stocked with beer freshman year and everybody smoked weed. Imagine that.

----------


## The Northbreather

> It will eventually be required which was my point of where I think we are headed.  I would not like that anymore than you.


I foresee am eventual total crackdown on the exchanges from every government issuing an exchanged fiat.

Then it's crypto being exachanged for precious metals to maintain anonymity.

Checkmate. Fiat death.

----------


## anaconda

> I foresee am eventual total crackdown on the exchanges from every government issuing an exchanged fiat.
> 
> Then it's crypto being exachanged for precious metals to maintain anonymity.
> 
> Checkmate. Fiat death.


Agreed that fiat could be left out in the cold from BTC transactions. But how are you diagnosing "fiat death?"

----------


## kpitcher

> I foresee am eventual total crackdown on the exchanges from every government issuing an exchanged fiat.
> 
> Then it's crypto being exachanged for precious metals to maintain anonymity.
> 
> Checkmate. Fiat death.


there are a number of peer to peer exchanges already, a few coins are having them built in like WAVES. They won't be able to shut down those exchanges

----------


## Mordan

> I foresee am eventual total crackdown on the exchanges from every government issuing an exchanged fiat.
> 
> Then it's crypto being exachanged for precious metals to maintain anonymity.
> 
> Checkmate. Fiat death.


Japan legalized Bitcoin. Checkmate to all the losers who think the state is going to kill crypto. Japan is already starting to use crypto for inter bank wires...

you guys are dummies. Some countries are embracing crypto and those will countries will have an advantage in the new money world order.

----------


## devil21

> Japan legalized Bitcoin. Checkmate to all the losers who think the state is going to kill crypto. Japan is already starting to use crypto for inter bank wires...
> 
> you guys are dummies. Some countries are embracing crypto and those will countries will have an advantage in the new money world order.


First one to embrace their slavery wins!  Last one to value freedom is a rotten egg. 

If a tightly central bank managed country like Japan legalizes bitcoin, doesn't that mean it's not a threat to the central bank?  Does your cognitive dissonance hurt, Mordan?  Besides, by legalizing it, that doesn't mean the bank can't simply nationalize the use of it under the BOJ's authority.  Good to see your mask is coming off and you're an NWO shill though.  Makes sense since I'm sure you'd like to see your undeveloped country advanced on the backs of a transfer of American's wealth.  No wonder all of your posts are about getting Americans to put their dollars into bitcoin.  Why are you here?

----------


## Mordan

> First one to embrace their slavery wins!  Last one to value freedom is a rotten egg. 
> 
>  Why are you here?


onboarding smart people on the crypto train to the fabulous riches of freedom from the fiat system.

----------


## The Northbreather

> Japan legalized Bitcoin. Checkmate to all the losers who think the state is going to kill crypto. Japan is already starting to use crypto for inter bank wires...
> 
> you guys are dummies. Some countries are embracing crypto and those will countries will have an advantage in the new money world order.


I'm invisioning that metals and crypto continue to complement each other until fiat is irrelevant.

A synergistic symbiosis.

----------


## specsaregood

> Cardano is gaining fast on ETH, it's up to 27 Billion. It has a co-founder of Eth running it and their claim is smart contracts done right. It's up 15X from November.
> 
> https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/cardano/


Dunno, the eth bull run just keeps going.   ill look at cardano some more as I like the technology.  Learning how to code some dapps for eth now.

----------


## Mordan

> Dunno, the eth bull run just keeps going.   ill look at cardano some more as I like the technology.  Learning how to code some dapps for eth now.


i am interested to know your first hand experience with deploying your smart contract ideas.

How do you expect to code external conditions ? The only use case that truly works on Ethereum are ERC20 tokens and Etherdelta for trading those.
Because they are fully inside the ecosystem without external conditions.

Pro Tip: See how Bitshares solved price of real world assets (external conditions) in order to trade bitUSD on the dex. They used witnesses that are financially incentivized to be honest.

----------


## Mordan

> I'm invisioning that metals and crypto continue to complement each other until fiat is irrelevant.
> 
> A synergistic symbiosis.


metals are external conditions to the crypto world.. metals are like any other commodities. 

man my neighbor spent all his cash to buy a fancy car, a cocaine lab and other stupid stuff on GTA 5. He does not give a $#@! about crypto or shiny metals.

----------


## Mordan



----------


## specsaregood

> i am interested to know your first hand experience with deploying your smart contract ideas.
> 
> How do you expect to code external conditions ? The only use case that truly works on Ethereum are ERC20 tokens and Etherdelta for trading those.
> Because they are fully inside the ecosystem without external conditions.
> 
> Pro Tip: See how Bitshares solved price of real world assets (external conditions) in order to trade bitUSD on the dex. They used witnesses that are financially incentivized to be honest.


I will update when I finally get something legit in place -- I have to fit my theoretical/practice/spec work in with the bill paying work.

in the meantime ETH setting new highs and on the verge of breaking through $1100 today.

----------


## Mordan

> I will update when I finally get something legit in place -- I have to fit my theoretical/practice/spec work in with the bill paying work.
> 
> in the meantime ETH setting new highs and on the verge of breaking through $1100 today.


price is irrelevant.

DogeCoin just broke 1 billion market cap.. is that relevant?

current market is dumb money buying marketing buzz words.

my point is that you will finally understand what smart contracts are able to do by coding one. Good luck!

----------


## specsaregood

> price is irrelevant.


Sure, it is irrelevant as far as the technology, bit its not irrelevant as to the topic of this thread.  and it is not irrelevant in regards to the amount of investment people and companies have in the specific blockchain.  the more investment, the more applications and features that will come through.




> my point is that you will finally understand what smart contracts are able to do by coding one. Good luck!


Indeed, that's how I've always learned and how I've supported myself for 2 decades.

As far as what they are capable of, you can also look at what others are doing.
eg:

----------


## The Northbreather

> Japan legalized Bitcoin. Checkmate to all the losers who think the state is going to kill crypto. Japan is already starting to use crypto for inter bank wires...
> 
> you guys are dummies. Some countries are embracing crypto and those will countries will have an advantage in the new money world order.


I am absolutely NOT saying the state will kill crypto.

I am saying that the old guard will attack, blacklist, condemn, attempt to co-opt crypto as they become aware of how much power they have to lose as people continue to trade in their fiat.

Attacks will only serve to strengthen the cryptos reputation imho. 

States have many instruments of control at their disposal, we'll likey see some used.

----------


## TheTexan

> It will eventually be required which was my point of where I think we are headed.  I would not like that anymore than you.


We should make a FedCoin and make billions

----------


## dannno

> Sure, it is irrelevant as far as the technology, bit its not irrelevant as to the topic of this thread.  and it is not irrelevant in regards to the amount of investment people and companies have in the specific blockchain.  the more investment, the more applications and features that will come through.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, that's how I've always learned and how I've supported myself for 2 decades.
> 
> As far as what they are capable of, you can also look at what others are doing.
> eg:


Eth
$1,204.96

----------


## dannno

> We should make a FedCoin and make billions


Lemme give you some advice.

https://imgur.com/8tQEo11

----------


## TheTexan

> Lemme give you some advice.
> 
> https://imgur.com/8tQEo11


The ICO launches in two weeks.

Pre-ICO sales are also available at 20% discount.

----------


## r3volution 3.0



----------


## Mordan

> Sure, it is irrelevant as far as the technology, bit its not irrelevant as to the topic of this thread.  and it is not irrelevant in regards to the amount of investment people and companies have in the specific blockchain.  the more investment, the more applications and features that will come through.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, that's how I've always learned and how I've supported myself for 2 decades.
> 
> As far as what they are capable of, you can also look at what others are doing.
> eg:


well i have an argument with my cousin. This pay toll thing is totally not fit for the blockchain. They are showing off a POC but Ethereum or any blockchain provides zero value. 

Their last argument is a lie. They removed an expensive server by an expensive blockchain with variable fees associated with transactions. This goes back to the argument of can Bitcoin blockchain pay for coffees? No. Can ethereum be a payment layer for all server applications ? no.

Time will tell who is right. All the current speculation about ADA and Eth and EOS is that those frameworks will be able to live up to their hype.

About your smart contract. have you identified the external conditions?

----------


## devil21

> some do. stop lying. porn web sites sure do.


BWHHAHAHAHAHA

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...nvestors-money




> The burgeoning market for initial coin offerings is rife with fraud and abuse thanks to unscrupulous people like the creator of FMtokens, a coin designed as a means for paying performers for live webcam chats. The New York Post reported Monday that investors in FMtokens  which purportedly raised just shy of $5 million  are complaining that the companys shadowy CEO, Jonatha Lucas, has absconded with their money while refusing to deliver the promised tokens.
> 
> Lucas aimed to raise as much as $25 million, according to an investment plan.
> ................................
> Another investor claimed that Lucas appears to be actively trading on cryptocurrency exchanges, possibly with the money stolen from his erstwhile investors.


Mordan?  Do you have something you need to tell us?

----------


## specsaregood

> well i have an argument with my cousin. This pay toll thing is totally not fit for the blockchain. They are showing off a POC but Ethereum or any blockchain provides zero value.


probably right, cool nonetheless and an example of something that can be done, not necessarily that it should be done.




> About your smart contract. have you identified the external conditions?


Nope, still batting around ideas of what to do.  We have too much work paying work this time of year, doesn't slow down until late spring...

----------


## specsaregood

> Eth
> $1,204.96


just busted through 1300.  @1317 now.   glad I unloaded the rest of my LTC last week, took my profits and put them all on ETH.

----------


## Mordan

> just busted through 1300.  @1317 now.   glad I unloaded the rest of my LTC last week, took my profits and put them all on ETH.


Eth price is driven by ERC20 ICOs. 

Real use case where a blockchain provides real value. Replaces stocks, VC funding etc.

No external conditions. Would not work on a web server.

As soon as you bring external conditions to a smart contract... a web server will do just as well unless those conditions can be trusted by a DPOS network like Bitshares.

----------


## Mordan

if you want a tx metric

http://www.blocktivity.info/

----------


## specsaregood

> Eth price is driven by ERC20 ICOs. 
> Real use case where a blockchain provides real value. Replaces stocks, VC funding etc.
> No external conditions. Would not work on a web server.
> As soon as you bring external conditions to a smart contract... a web server will do just as well unless those conditions can be trusted by a DPOS network like Bitshares.


No disagreements there.  Finding actual use cases where a web server wouldn't be a better solution are difficult.  Especially since I've specialized in web services for the past decade.  But they are out there.  I just haven't found one to build to and market to.

And don't get me wrong, I think ETH is overpriced, same as BTC.   LTC is probably underpriced by comparison, but still overpriced.  And its all due to worthless speculation/gambling.   As somebody that is more interested in the technology than the casino aspect, it sorta aggravates me.  But whatever, I'm not opposed to making money off it.

With that said,  ETH is back to new highs after a few pullbacks this week.  Up to $1417 today.

----------


## Mordan

> No disagreements there.  Finding actual use cases where a web server wouldn't be a better solution are difficult.  Especially since I've specialized in web services for the past decade.  But they are out there.  I just haven't found one to build to and market to.
> 
> And don't get me wrong, I think ETH is overpriced, same as BTC.   LTC is probably underpriced by comparison, but still overpriced.  And its all due to worthless speculation/gambling.   As somebody that is more interested in the technology than the casino aspect, it sorta aggravates me.  But whatever, I'm not opposed to making money off it.
> 
> With that said,  ETH is back to new highs after a few pullbacks this week.  Up to $1417 today.


Look up how Bitshares manages smartcoins that track the value of fiat currencies. (external condition)

https://bitshares.org/technology/pri...ptocurrencies/

Smart advanced stuff. Still haven't wrapped my head around it.


PS: Eth can go to 2000 and back to 1000... I don't really care. the market is irrational.

----------


## The Northbreather

There will be blood

----------


## kahless

> There will be blood

----------


## Madison320

I'm not an expert chart reader, but it still looks like Bitcoin has been bouncing around for the last month. If it gets below 8K-9K then it'll start looking like a major move down.

Then again it's now down 22%! in one day!

----------


## The Northbreather

#tankingtuesday
#terribletuesday
#titanictuesday

Feel free to use

----------


## Krugminator2

> Feels like this is headed to the 8-10k range over the next few weeks before you will see price stabilize. That would be a 50% pullback.





> lol.
> 
> what are your predictions this week?

----------


## kahless

It may have lost 10k from its highs but we are only back to where we were at the end of November. So far that is.

----------


## axiomata

Good time to re-balance / diversify crypto portfolio as well. Probably not a whole lot of rationale right now for the current relative prices between cryptos that can be taken advantage of.

Given that the sell-off was precipiated by governments' threatening to ban and regulate crypto, what's a good privacy coin to buy? Also, if one has most of their portfolio in BTC on coinbase, what's the cheapest (and most private) way to diversify and rebalance?

----------


## anaconda

Good point, kahless. BTC hit $8K during Thanksgiving week and I thought that was off the rails high.

$10,950 right now. 

Yes, however, quite a ways from $19.8K a few weeks ago.

----------


## TheTexan

Plane_crashing.gif

----------


## The Northbreather

//

----------


## TheTexan

Told ya it was a bubble

----------


## The Northbreather

> Good time to re-balance / diversify crypto portfolio as well. Probably not a whole lot of rationale right now for the current relative prices between cryptos that can be taken advantage of.
> 
> *Given that the sell-off was precipiated by governments' threatening to ban and regulate crypto, what's a good privacy coin to buy? Also, if one has most of their portfolio in BTC on coinbase, what's the cheapest (and most private) way to diversify and rebalance?*


^^this^^

----------


## devil21

Damn, that's a long ass candle.

----------


## Krugminator2



----------


## Madison320

> 


One correction. That dotted line should be the x axis.

----------


## Zippyjuan

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/5-...ays-2018-01-17




> *5 key reasons bitcoin, other cryptocurrencies have lost a stunning $370 billion in 10 days*
> 
> 1). *South Korea*
> Seoul has said that the government intends to crack down on the trading of cryptoassets. Officials have also floated the idea of taxes on crypto trading and other measures to tighten its grip on market considered by some as supporting money laundering and dangerous speculative investing. By some measures, *South Korea represents about a fifth of the virtual-trade volume.*
> 
> 2). *Russia*
> Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Tuesday that more oversight of cryptocurrencies may be needed “This is the prerogative of the Central Bank at present and the Central Bank has sufficient authority so far. However, in broad terms, legislative regulation will be definitely required in future,” he said, according to Russian news agency TASS.
> 
> 3).* China*
> ...

----------


## Dark_Horse_Rider

the magicianeers at work. . . $#@! fiat

----------


## seapilot

> Good time to re-balance / diversify crypto portfolio as well. Probably not a whole lot of rationale right now for the current relative prices between cryptos that can be taken advantage of.
> 
> Given that the sell-off was precipiated by governments' threatening to ban and regulate crypto, what's a good privacy coin to buy? Also, if one has most of their portfolio in BTC on coinbase, what's the cheapest (and most private) way to diversify and rebalance?


Some Privacy coins are Monero, Zencash, Dash and Smartcash. Transfer BTC to another exchange eg Binance (based in Tokyo). No personal info needed only sign up with private email. As others have said this is not professional financial advice just some dude posting stuff on the net.

----------


## dannno

*Crypto-Miners Buy Russian Power Stations*

                     By ZeroHedge  - Jan 17, 2018, 2:00 PM CST


https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-G...-Stations.html




Two electric power stations in Russia were recently sold to a  cryptocurrency miner looking to expand his operations  the latest sign  that the countrys government-supported push to become a cryptocurrency  mining hub has been successful.


The two stations are situated in  the Perm Region on the western slopes of the Middle Ural Mountains, and  in the neighboring Republic of Udmurtia. The facilities will be used as  data centers as well as housing for cryptocurrency mining equipment and a  center for cryptocurrency mining. The price paid for the two stations?  Roughly 160 million rubles (about $3 million), according to RT.


After  initially approaching cryptocurrencies with skepticism, the Russian  government last summer signaled that it would instead try to regulate  and embrace the markets.

That trend has culminated with the Russian Ministry of Finance drafting a bill  to legalize the trading of cryptocurrencies on approved exchanges,  according to Deputy Finance Minister Alexei Moiseev, who has indicated  that the government is seeking to provide greater oversight. President  Vladimir Putin has ordered the government to create legislation  governing the status of bitcoin, other cryptocurrencies, mining, and  initial coin offerings, as well as defining everything that relates to  digital money, by July.

The bill will open the door to more open cryptocurrency trading and  investment within Russia, as some countries like China have sought to  stamp out both mining and trading.

In August, a company known as Russian Miner Coin, or RMC, announced that it would try to raise $100 million  in an initial coin offering, promising to allocate 18 percent of the  companys mining revenue to holders of their tokens. The company was  founded by a close aide to Putin.

...
*Furthermore, the Russian government and its state-owned energy companies have reportedly considered launching a digital currency  that could be used in partnership with Venezuela, Iran and Russia to  circumvent U.S. sanctions in accepting payment for their oil exports,  similar to Venezuelas Petro, an oil-backed digital currency that is being developed by Latin America's favorite Socialist Paradise.*


By Zerohedge

----------


## dannno



----------


## devil21

Yay chips and tattoos for everyone!

----------


## dannno

> *Crypto-Miners Buy Russian Power Stations*
> 
>                      By ZeroHedge  - Jan 17, 2018, 2:00 PM CST
> 
> 
> https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-G...-Stations.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...





>

----------


## EBounding



----------


## Dark_Horse_Rider

The magicianeers are desperately trying to get more Bitcoin into trading circulation in attempt to gain massive majority

----------


## devil21

> The magicianeers are desperately trying to get more Bitcoin into trading circulation in attempt to gain massive majority


That's another similarity to the stock market, actually.  You do not own stocks.  You only have a "tag" on a stock share.  Bitcoin is the same.  You do not own a Bitcoin.  You own a "tag" for a Bitcoin on the blockchain.  When you "move your Bitcoin to cold storage" all you're really doing is moving that "tag" away from the exchange, where it could otherwise be lost.

Stocks are owned by a Fed holding company called Cede&Co.  Someone owns the Bitcoin blockchain, though I don't know who exactly.  I'd bet the usual suspects but I don't currently care enough to read an exchange Terms and Conditions to see.

----------


## FSP-Rebel

> That's another similarity to the stock market, actually.  You do not own stocks.  You only have a "tag" on a stock share.  Bitcoin is the same.  You do not own a Bitcoin.  You own a "tag" for a Bitcoin on the blockchain.  When you "move your Bitcoin to cold storage" all you're really doing is moving that "tag" away from the exchange, where it could otherwise be lost.
> 
> Stocks are owned by a Fed holding company called Cede&Co.  Someone owns the Bitcoin blockchain, though I don't know who exactly.  I'd bet the usual suspects but I don't currently care enough to read an exchange Terms and Conditions to see.


Your private key is the ownership stake over any said # of bitcoins in any of your wallets. Its blockchain is run by a decentralized network of volunteer node operators that manages electronic cash w/o a central administrator. 

If you care -> http://www.zdnet.com/article/blockch...plain-english/

----------


## anaconda

Folks were giddy and amazed when BTC hit $8K around Thanksgiving, after 11 months of surreal growth. It's currently at the Thanksgiving price. Still a phenomenal increase from 1 year ago.

----------


## TheTexan



----------


## Mordan

my bitcoins are safe.. bankers will not put their hands on it.

----------


## anaconda

$8,050

----------


## Krugminator2



----------


## Mordan

> I am scaling in. Bought a 1/4 position at  7k and  another at 6700 and will do 6400 and 6k if those get hit.


exact same buy entry as a banker who is setting up a crypto desk in June.

----------


## Mordan

> Is 6.8k a good price? Is this the best time to buy?


it was given to me by an insider.. i guess he made me a favor.. but it helps him as well.

only bought 30% of my free cash.. buying more in 1 week if it goes below 6k.

if stock market collapses... all bets are off.

----------


## Schifference

I am happy I didn't buy in at 19k.

----------


## Zippyjuan

Chart of the day:

----------


## r3volution 3.0

What a stable and useful currency..

----------


## Dark_Horse_Rider

$ 8236.00

----------


## devil21

> yea. LISTEN> I KNOW FOR A FACT A SWISS BANK TRADER IS LOADING UP RIGHT NOW.
> 
> i am buying.


There's a Nigerian Prince joke in here somewhere.

----------


## Mordan

> There's a Nigerian Prince joke in here somewhere.


you didn't buy....

----------


## devil21

> you didn't buy....


For the record, the first time you told me to buy bitcoin on this thread it was about $7500.  It's been substantially lower than that recently and is barely higher right now.  Only if I had participated in dumping at the high would there have been any benefit whatsoever to buying when you advised.  I'm not a trader any way.  My market timing generally sucks and I'm ok admitting that.  I'm always early on my moves.  Such is the fate of the non-sucker.

----------


## dannno

> For the record, the first time you told me to buy bitcoin on this thread it was about *$7500*.  It's been substantially lower than that recently and is barely higher right now.  Only if I had participated in dumping at the high would there have been any benefit whatsoever to buying when you advised.  I'm not a trader any way.  My market timing generally sucks and I'm ok admitting that.


This forum has been telling you to buy bitcoin since it was around $1.

If you had spent $15 you could have bought a lambo.

----------


## devil21

> This forum has been telling you to buy bitcoin since it was around $1.


And it will return to the price soon enough.




Do you see what they did there?

----------


## Mordan

> And it will return to the price soon enough.




Lets think logically. There are 17 millions Bitcoins. Bitcoin is the first crypto currency. Just as a piece of art, people will want to own it. Just because. 
I agree with you, it could become a relic of the past one day. But as long as people value historical objects, bitcoin will have tremendous value.

----------


## AuH20

LISK with nice growth today. Undervalued coin from Germany.

----------


## AuH20

Also, keep your eye on Wanchain. It should be out for purchase by late February. 50X to 100X potential with their platform. No joke. I wouldn't pay more than 3.00 for it out of the gate though. You know how new coins get pumped and then dumped during the initial frenzy stage.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Lets think logically. There are 17 millions Bitcoins. Bitcoin is the first crypto currency. Just as a piece of art, people will want to own it. Just because. 
> I agree with you, it could become a relic of the past one day. But as long as people value historical objects, bitcoin will have tremendous value.


Kinda hard to hang a bitcoin on the wall and look at it though.

----------


## dannno

> Kinda hard to hang a bitcoin on the wall and look at it though.


Not really.

----------


## dannno

https://seekingalpha.com/article/414...-likely-follow

*Bitcoin: The Bottom Appears To Be In, Why Higher Prices Are Likely To Follow*Feb. 8.18 | 

*Summary*Bitcoin has been on a wild ride since 2017, first a 2,500% gain, then a 70% decline, but Bitcoin still stands tall, higher by 700% over the past year alone.
Despite the numerous transient negative developments, most fundamental factors surrounding Bitcoin remain strong.
Moreover, some of Bitcoin's transactional shortcomings are likely to be largely alleviated by the introduction of the Lightning Network later this year.
A technical image suggests Bitcoin may have reached a bottom in recent days, as a massive wave of panic selling collided with a surge of buying interest below $6,000.
The Bottom Line: Bitcoin is likely going significantly higher throughout the rest of 2018.

----------


## dannno

$8,811

----------


## AuH20

Nano is cheap after the hack revelations.

----------


## Mordan

> Nano is cheap after the hack revelations.


Nano has an interesting solution but as Dan Larimer (EOS) said.. the economic incentives for running nodes are so bad. Nano will never be able to scale. Anyone with some hardware and cheap energy can spam the network and clog it

----------


## dannno

$8673

Wb @presence

----------


## presence

> $8673
> 
> Wb @presence


I'm holding BTCUSD here looking for bear market resistance in mid 9's

----------


## dannno

$9257


LTC: 158 -> 209 in the last 8 hours

----------


## timosman



----------


## Carlybee

Anyone have a good spreadsheet for tracking gains/losses?

----------


## anaconda

$9639

----------


## AuH20



----------


## dannno

Wow

----------


## devil21

> Anyone have a good spreadsheet for tracking gains/losses?


For what?  Like taxes?  Haven't you heard?  Paying taxes on cryptos is for suckers.  It's anonymous and decentralized and private and revolutionary and cool and 'cuz Bilderberger Peter Thiel and Hedge Fund Wall Streeter Novogratz like it the deep state hates it.  So forget about taxes and P/L statements and lame stuff like that.  Just be cool and edgy and trade da coins.  You'll get a Lambo, promise!

(Until the notice from the IRS shows up and the coiners realize that Coinbase's board of directors is full of fedgov)

----------


## Mordan

> For what?  Like taxes?  Haven't you heard?  Paying taxes on cryptos is for suckers.  It's anonymous and decentralized and private and revolutionary and cool and 'cuz Bilderberger Peter Thiel and Hedge Fund Wall Streeter Novogratz like it the deep state hates it.  So forget about taxes and P/L statements and lame stuff like that.  Just be cool and edgy and trade da coins.  You'll get a Lambo, promise!
> 
> (Until the notice from the IRS shows up and the coiners realize that Coinbase's board of directors is full of fedgov)


many countries in the European Union don't have capital gain taxes. France does. Luxembourg does not if you sell after 6 months. The Netherlands does not have capital gain tax either.

If you look at a country fiscal policy.. what it gives from one side, it takes from another side. A country without capital gain taxes usually have a huge tax on buying real estate. The USA has a 15% capital gain tax. But it does not tax the buyer of a new home. Some countries requires a 10% to 15% tax. I know Spain is 10%. Belgium 12.5%
Funny that it matches the USA capital gain tax.

----------


## Mordan

The banker who gave me the 6k tip now turned bullish to 23k

unfortunately i only bought 30% of my position at 6k. Price didn't stay there long enough.

Rumors of Saudi Princes wanting to buy positions in Bitcoin.

----------


## dannno

$10,035

----------


## kpitcher

The projection from last year that it would end 2018 @ 40k still seems possible

----------


## AuH20

Go to a bitcoin atm. Scan your barcode. Walk away with fiat ANONYMOUSLY. Sorry IRS.

----------


## AuH20

I took a significant chunk of my bitcoins at 12500-9500 and reinvested in reputable alts. I can make multiples of my money in the runup.

----------


## Carlybee

> For what?  Like taxes?  Haven't you heard?  Paying taxes on cryptos is for suckers.  It's anonymous and decentralized and private and revolutionary and cool and 'cuz Bilderberger Peter Thiel and Hedge Fund Wall Streeter Novogratz like it the deep state hates it.  So forget about taxes and P/L statements and lame stuff like that.  Just be cool and edgy and trade da coins.  You'll get a Lambo, promise!
> 
> (Until the notice from the IRS shows up and the coiners realize that Coinbase's board of directors is full of fedgov)



Im a bookkeeper. I have a few people asking about how to keep track.

----------


## devil21

> I’m a bookkeeper. I have a few people asking about how to keep track.


Just send them my message.





> Go to a bitcoin atm. Scan your barcode. Walk away with fiat ANONYMOUSLY. Sorry IRS.


Except for that part where you turned over all of your personal info to the exchange to buy them in the first place.  Ever since then, your name has been attached to everything you've done.  You think you can cash out a bitcoin that has your name attached to it at an ATM and it not be on record?  I fear there will be a lot of people in for a very, very rude awakening when it becomes clear what is meant by a _GLOBAL_ currency.

----------


## AuH20

> Just send them my message.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except for that part where you turned over all of your personal info to the exchange to buy them in the first place.  Ever since then, your name has been attached to everything you've done.  You think you can cash out a bitcoin that has your name attached to it at an ATM and it not be on record?  I fear there will be a lot of people in for a very, very rude awakening when it becomes clear what is meant by a _GLOBAL_ currency.


However, there is no transaction available to the IRS of one actually selling the said coin(s). All they have is a point of origin and some blockchain traces in some instances. Understand that I have anonymous accounts on exchanges in the Far East. You can move it all over the internet to your heart's delight. Anonymous personal wallets exist. The burden of proof is on the IRS to prove that you sold the coin, but once it goes down the rabbit hole ( see Monero ), they are lost. ROFL This is the primary reason the TPTB are crying out for regulation. 

 As long as you don't spend the washed fiat on a high profile luxury item that doesn't mesh with your annual income, you are in the clear. The IRS is completely powerless unless you are dumb enough to reconvert with an IRS assisting company like Coinbase.

----------


## devil21

> However, there is no transaction available to the IRS of one actually selling the said coin(s).


How do you figure?  If you did it through an exchange that you had to log in to (which also has your IP address, device MAC address, etc) everything you did was recorded and attached to your name (it's not "your" name but that's outside the scope of this convo).  What, exactly, do you think the purpose of total information awareness is?  You want to bet there's a camera in that bitcoin ATM with facial recognition software?  If you have an ID, your face is already in a global facial recognition database!  Some of you seem to have no idea just how interlinked everything is now.  




> All they have is a point of origin in some instances. Understand that I have anonymous accounts on exchanges in the Far East. You can move it all over the internet to your heart's delight. Anonymous personal wallets exist. The burden of proof is on the IRS to prove that you sold the coin, but once it goes down the rabbit hole, they are lost. ROFL


So cute.  Still clinging to a notion of anonymity even though you're surrounded by advanced cameras, your devices ID you to everything you interact with (IoT), the exchanges themselves obviously communicate with each other (otherwise there would be no network in the first place) and can/do send your ID info all over.




> As long as you don't spend the washed fiat on a high profile luxury item that doesn't mesh with your annual income, you are in the clear. The IRS is completely powerless unless you are dumb enough to reconvert with an IRS assisting company like Coinbase.


You go ahead and believe that.  Your only saving grace, for the moment, is that it may not be 100% completely integrated and operational yet.  Yet.  Do you feel lucky?

----------


## AuH20

Like I said, the IRS is in trouble against an invisible foe, but it remains to be seen for how long this will continue.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/22/o...coin-fear.html




> Blockchain technologies can also make it difficult for the I.R.S. to tax cryptocurrency trading profits. Here is a simple tax dodge that would be hard for the I.R.S. to prove: Suppose A, B and C are electronic addresses you own. You let the I.R.S. know you own A, but not B and C. You buy one Bitcoin at $15,000 and park it at A, expecting the price to go up. Just a few hours later, when a Bitcoin is worth $15,500, you send that Bitcoin to B and then to C.
> 
> A few months later, when your Bitcoin is now worth $25,000, you send it from C to A and tell the I.R.S., “I sold a Bitcoin to an anonymous counterparty at B back at $15,500 and just now bought a Bitcoin from another anonymous counterparty at C for $25,000.” As a result, you owe taxes on capital gains of just $500 rather than $10,000.
> 
> *The I.R.S. can observe all the transactions between A, B and C on the Bitcoin blockchain, but it cannot disprove that B and C are “arm’s length” counterparties (that is, independent and not colluding). Rules in the United States that require financial institutions to verify the identity of address holders do not solve the problem, because as far as the I.R.S. knows, B and C could have been set up by a foreign institution that does not comply with such rules.*

----------


## devil21

Not sure I'd quote an NYT opinion piece as a bastion of truth reporting, but hey I hope it works out for you.

----------


## Mordan

Dan Larimer creator of upcoming EOS says: remove all taxes. 

Pay for everything with inflation.

That's how EOS will work. Block producers will be paid with inflation.

----------


## anaconda

$10,559

----------


## specsaregood

> . The burden of proof is on the IRS to prove that you sold the coin,


I'm pretty sure the irs puts the burden of proof on you to prove you didn't.

----------


## dannno

> I'm pretty sure the irs puts the burden of proof on you to prove you didn't.


I made a typo and sent 'em to the wrong wallet address

----------


## specsaregood

> I made a typo and sent 'em to the wrong wallet address


Then you should have no problem proving that.  It's all public.

----------


## dannno

> Then you should have no problem proving that.  It's all public.


Right, it's in the blockchain, I think part B in the NYT diagram.

----------


## dannno

11,091

----------


## dannno

11,552

----------


## Mordan

10500

----------


## devil21

> 10500


$0

$20 trillion in free bitcoin!  Exchange glitch sells bitcoin for $0
https://www.rt.com/business/419452-f...change-glitch/




> A computing error at a Japanese cryptocurrency exchange Zaif has allowed some customers to claim digital tokens for $0. This raises further questions about security at crypto exchanges. 
> 
> As Japanese newspaper Asahi Shimbun reports, this seventh client “purchased” 2,200 trillion yen ($20 trillion) worth of bitcoin and tried to withdraw it from the exchange.


So this raises an important question.  If a glitch like this happens and it actually processes, how does the chain go back and "undelete" the purchase???

----------


## dannno

> $0
> 
> $20 trillion in free bitcoin!  Exchange glitch sells bitcoin for $0
> https://www.rt.com/business/419452-f...change-glitch/
> 
> 
> 
> So this raises an important question.  If a glitch like this happens and it actually processes, how does the chain go back and "undelete" the purchase???



The exchanges don't actually do all the micro-transactions in crypto, they just hold a reserve like any other exchange and they keep their reserves at the proper levels. 

This guy bought $20 trillion worth of bitcoin, there isn't even $20 trillion worth of bitcoin in existence. He bought worthless tokens on their server, then tried to cash out the tokens. Obviously they don't have $20 trillion so he wasn't thinking very far ahead if he thought it was actually going to happen.

What he should have done if he really wanted to screw over the exchange was actually attempt to send SOME of the bitcoin to another wallet. He couldn't have sent all of it because it doesn't exist, but if they had actually sent him some bitcoin to a wallet address that he has control over, then they would have been unable to reverse the transaction.

----------


## devil21

> The exchanges don't actually do all the micro-transactions in crypto, they just hold a reserve like any other exchange and they keep their reserves at the proper levels. 
> 
> This guy bought $20 trillion worth of bitcoin, there isn't even $20 trillion worth of bitcoin in existence. He bought worthless tokens on their server, then tried to cash out the tokens. Obviously they don't have $20 trillion so he wasn't thinking very far ahead if he thought it was actually going to happen.
> 
> What he should have done if he really wanted to screw over the exchange was actually attempt to send SOME of the bitcoin to another wallet. He couldn't have sent all of it because it doesn't exist, but if they had actually sent him some bitcoin to a wallet address that he has control over, then they would have been unable to reverse the transaction.


Sure, in that specific example it wouldn't have made a difference but otherwise say an exchange glitches out and offers bitcoin for $20 each and a crapton of people buy and the purchases do get processed into the chain before the mistake is realized.  Then what?  If coins can be "lost" or otherwise disappear or be stolen and the chain not reverted to make the victim whole again, what happens if this kind of issue happens?  Seems to me the whole thing would be screwed.  Also begs the question of how one knows for sure that their coin hasn't been rehypothecated over and over.

It is nice to see someone admit that "buying" a bitcoin on an exchange isn't actually a purchase of a bitcoin on the blockchain, but rather is the purchase of a "tag" on an exchange.

----------


## dannno

> Sure, in that specific example it wouldn't have made a difference but otherwise say an exchange glitches out and offers bitcoin for $20 each and a crapton of people buy and the purchases do get processed into the chain before the mistake is realized.  Then what?  If coins can be "lost" or otherwise disappear or be stolen and the chain not reverted to make the victim whole again, what happens if this kind of issue happens?  Seems to me the whole thing would be screwed.  Also begs the question of how one knows for sure that their coin hasn't been rehypothecated over and over.


That's why you keep your coins in a wallet like Mordan and most of us here have always said to do, only keep on the exchange what you want to trade. 

The worst thing that could happen, like I said, is the person actually gets their BTC off the exchange. The exchange will have decreased their BTC reserves without getting anything in return and they may have a difficult time fully compensating their customers. 





> It is nice to see someone admit that "buying" a bitcoin on an exchange isn't actually a purchase of a bitcoin on the blockchain, but rather is the purchase of a "tag" on an exchange.


What's wrong with admitting that? If you can't transfer the coin off the exchange into your own private wallet, people start complaining.. people start complaining, they start pulling their coin off the exchange. Bad day for the exchange.

----------


## devil21

> That's why you keep your coins in a wallet like Mordan and most of us here have always said to do, only keep on the exchange what you want to trade. 
> 
> The worst thing that could happen, like I said, is the person actually gets their BTC off the exchange. The exchange will have decreased their BTC reserves without getting anything in return and they may have a difficult time fully compensating their customers. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's wrong with admitting that? If you can't transfer the coin off the exchange into your own private wallet, people start complaining.. people start complaining, they start pulling their coin off the exchange. Bad day for the exchange.


That's the thing, you're not transferring the actual coin code to your wallet afaik.  You're transferring a "tag" to your wallet so the tag that identifies it as yours can't be lost on an exchange.  How do you know that you and Mordan don't have a tag in your wallet to the same coin, thus making that coin essentially rehypothecated?

----------


## dannno

> That's the thing, you're not transferring the actual coin code to your wallet afaik.  You're transferring a "tag" to your wallet so the tag that identifies it as yours can't be lost on an exchange.  How do you know that you and Mordan don't have a tag in your wallet to the same coin, thus making that coin essentially rehypothecated?


You really should just buy some crypto. You could buy like $20 worth or something. It would be a great learning experience.. Although a nice wallet costs over $100, if you have a small amount of crypto you could store it on a USB drive no need for the high security. 

But yes, you do actually transfer the actual coin to your wallet from the exchange. You can verify on the blockchain that it is yours, and only yours. Once it is off the exchange it is all yours. But transferring coin to your wallet from an exchange may take some time.. could be 2 minutes could be a couple hours potentially but usually it doesn't take too long. Pretty sure they send them out in batches. 

What's on the exchange is a user interface that simulates a bunch of wallets and a bunch of reserves behind it so that they can keep up with the demand of people transferring coins to and from the exchange, and having cash on hand if people want to cash out, etc.

----------


## kpitcher

> That's the thing, you're not transferring the actual coin code to your wallet afaik.  You're transferring a "tag" to your wallet so the tag that identifies it as yours can't be lost on an exchange.  How do you know that you and Mordan don't have a tag in your wallet to the same coin, thus making that coin essentially rehypothecated?


An exchange is like a stock market in some ways, your account there is just an entry in a database. Problems may happen if the exchange has a problem. The worse that happens are those coins on that exchange may get stolen. The most the service can screw up is however many coins that service actually owns.  Although exchanges also have other security steps, most exchanges only keep a small percentage of total coins in a "hot" wallet that is instantly usable, most deposits are offline in a cold wallet, brought in as needed. So an exchange may lose 20% of their total coin holding if there is a major problem with their service.


When someone has a coin in their personal wallet it's like you're holding onto an actual stock certificate. It's yours, you have it in hand, no one else can have any claim to it.

----------


## Mordan

> $0
> 
> $20 trillion in free bitcoin!  Exchange glitch sells bitcoin for $0
> https://www.rt.com/business/419452-f...change-glitch/
> 
> 
> 
> So this raises an important question.  If a glitch like this happens and it actually processes, how does the chain go back and "undelete" the purchase???


see what Danno wrote.

you sound like Warren Buffet. An old man who does not understand it because he refuses to try it. Fair enough. My grand father died without ever writing an email.

It is annoying though because you argue on something you have no clue about..

----------


## devil21

Actually, I have many clues on what's going and have proven it in this thread repeatedly.  No matter how much y'all want to argue that it's _different_, it's actually nearly the exact same as stock market exchanges.  One could even call it a stock market for man buns lol.  If you don't understand fundamentally how the stock exchanges work then you'll never understand what I'm posting.  I don't have any skin in the crypto game so I can look at it from the 10,000 feet perspective.  Y'all with skin in the game can't do that, for obvious reasons, but that's human nature.  It's another banker game, like it or not, so the same rules apply.  Nothin' new under the sun...




> When someone has a coin in their personal wallet it's like you're holding onto an actual stock certificate. It's yours, you have it in hand, no one else can have any claim to it.


This is an example of the fundamental misunderstanding y'all have about stock markets, and by extension, crypto markets.  You never own a share of stock even if you have a certificate.  A stock certificate is a usage title (called equitable title), it is not an ownership title.  It is the "tag" I keep referring to.  Legal ownership of the stock is held by a Fed holding company!  The "coin" in your crypto wallet is the equivalent of that equitable title stock certificate.  It is a tag, an equitable title, but it is not legal ownership.  Why is that?  Because according to old banking philosophy, slaves can't own anything.  Slaves can only use something for the benefit of the slave owner, slaves can not own.

----------


## talkingbob

This is now the second person of significance to call for the Flippening this year (other was a hedge fund owner that started one of the first crypto hedge funds).
https://twitter.com/nictrades/status/967775779923914752

Remember, ETH price massively outperformed BTC in 2017.

----------


## dannno

10,960

----------


## Dark_Horse_Rider

$11,100

----------


## dannno



----------


## kahless

In Consolidation Mode, Bitcoin Awaits Decisive Move
https://www.coindesk.com/consolidati...decisive-move/



> The descending trendline resistance and the inverse head-and-shoulders neckline are shown to converge at $11,640 by Saturday.
>     A high volume break (UTC lose) above $11,640 would signal long-term bull market revival and could open up towards $17,000-$17,400.

----------


## Zippyjuan

http://fortune.com/2018/03/02/bitcoi...action-volume/




> *Bitcoin Transaction Volume Is Puzzling Investors
> *
> 
> Earlier this year, when Bitcoins price fell by more than 60% from its record close, a less-noticed Bitcoin figure also plunged: the number of daily transactions.
> 
> There are many explanations for the fall-off in trading, from software- to news-related. Whats less understood is why the level hasnt recovered as Bitcoins price made a 50% comeback since Feb. 5. *Thats left some investors wondering whether the cryptocurrency is waning in popularity.
> 
> The average number of trades recorded daily has roughly dropped in half from the December highs and touched its lowest in two years last month, even as Bitcoin became a household name and roared back above $10,000.*
> 
> ...

----------


## kpitcher

There's been a lot of speculation that the dramatic bitcoin transaction volume was all a deliberate attack to raise the price of Bitcoin transaction fees. Bcash has been on the offensive about BTC's high transaction costs.

----------


## Mordan

> There's been a lot of speculation that the dramatic bitcoin transaction volume was all a deliberate attack to raise the price of Bitcoin transaction fees. Bcash has been on the offensive about BTC's high transaction costs.


it probably was..

Also lots of people had monetary interests to pump alt coins by spreading FUD.

----------


## Zippyjuan

Public interest waning. 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-since-october




> *Google Searches for Bitcoin Drop to Lowest Since October*
> 
> People just aren’t that interested in Bitcoin since the digital currency’s manic price surge came to an abrupt end late last year.
> 
> Nobody's Searching for Bitcoin Any More
> 
> Google searches for the search term "bitcoin" at the lowest level since October
> 
> With the largest cryptocurrency down about 40 percent from its all-time high reached in December, Google Trends data show searches are down by more than 80 percent. The last time so few people were interested, Bitcoin traded near $5,000. 
> ...


Chart at link.

https://www.investopedia.com/news/bi...e-twoyear-low/




> *Bitcoin Trading Volume Plunges to Two-Year Low*
> 
> Bitcoin (BTC) had a dramatic end to 2017 and start to the new year. The top cryptocurrency in the world by market cap surged to record high prices close to $20,000 per coin in December 2017. Then it stumbled somewhat, settling down under $10,000. It has hovered in the $8,000 to $11,000 range for several weeks.
> 
> A report by Coin Telegraph suggests that this sideways price action which has dominated much of 2018 so far may be contributing to an unusual effect for the cryptocurrency: bitcoin has had the lowest number of confirmed transactions per day since March 2016.
> 
> Feb. 26 Marked a Two-Year Low
> BTC transactions have fallen alongside downward trends in price since the coin reached its highest level in December 2017. Since that time, as the price of bitcoin has settled down, investors seem to have lost some of the spark which drove last year's bitcoin boom.
> 
> The lowest levels of transactions occurred on February 26, 2018, with only 180,000 confirmed BTC transactions. March 4 was only slightly better, with just 195,500 transactions taking place worldwide that day.

----------


## dannno

> Public interest waning. 
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-since-october
> 
> 
> 
> Chart at link.
> 
> https://www.investopedia.com/news/bi...e-twoyear-low/


Uhhhhh....




> There's been a lot of speculation that the dramatic bitcoin transaction volume was all a deliberate attack to raise the price of Bitcoin transaction fees. Bcash has been on the offensive about BTC's high transaction costs.

----------


## kpitcher

I could potentially see a drop off of bitcoin searches because it's getting more mainstream. Even the WSJ has an article or two every day. If you can't read the regular news without stumbling across something about crypto why bother searching for it

----------


## Mordan

> I could potentially see a drop off of bitcoin searches because it's getting more mainstream. Even the WSJ has an article or two every day. If you can't read the regular news without stumbling across something about crypto why bother searching for it


Good point... considering US and Japan GOX trustee dumped 1000s of Bitcoin in the last weeks.. market is super strong... don't forget miners who dump 12 btc every 10 minutes.

in 2020 Bitcoin will be over 100k...  Market will have absorbed all the BTC of MtGOX and reward will be down to 6 from 12

----------


## devil21

> Good point... considering US and Japan GOX trustee dumped 1000s of Bitcoin in the last weeks.. market is super strong... don't forget miners who dump 12 btc every 10 minutes.
> 
> in 2020 Bitcoin will be over 100k...  Market will have absorbed all the BTC of MtGOX and reward will be down to 6 from 12


What is your reasoning behind it being 100k in roughly 2 years?  It struggles to stay above $10k and routinely shears the sheep that listen to y'alls "BUY NOW BUY NOW" posts when it ticks up a little bit.  How's that Swiss banker workin out for ya?

I think in 2 years bitcoin will be the Myspace of social media and probably nearly worthless, having served its original purpose of introducing the sheep to blockchain.  The official blockchain solutions will have been released (fully controlled, of course) by then.

----------


## dannno

> What is your reasoning behind it being 100k in roughly 2 years?


Longterm trends?

----------


## devil21

> Longterm trends?


Is that a question?  Or is that your answer?  

If it's your answer, answering it with a "?" at the end doesn't instill much confidence in your answer.

----------


## dannno

> Is that a question?  Or is that your answer?  
> 
> If it's your answer, answering it with a "?" at the end doesn't instill much confidence in your answer.


I'm not Mordan, I'm just taking a stab at what his reasoning might be.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Longterm trends?


Stocks up: A bubble.  Has to pop any day now. 

Bitcoin up: can never go down.  Infinity and beyond!

----------


## I<3Liberty

What if the value of bitcoin becomes that of beanie babies today? Many feel it's headed that way: https://www.pcmag.com/commentary/358...-beanie-babies

I will admit I've been tempted to invest in it, but just can't. It's still possible to make something, but I'm a little too late to the game for the the big payoffs. While the stock market isn't immune to risk, I have more trust in my investments there than bitcoin.

----------


## Dark_Horse_Rider

Beanie Babies weren't platform'd on one of most revolutionary systems in modern history

----------


## Dark_Horse_Rider

Saw a post on a different site mentioning 40,000 Bitcoin dumped into market by Mt. Gox associate during past 2-3 months

----------


## devil21

> Saw a post on a different site mentioning 40,000 Bitcoin dumped into market by Mt. Gox associate during past 2-3 months


Does that mean all the coins that they stole (and were likely used to manipulate the market) are now being quietly dumped back onto the market?  Sounds very, very bearish for bitcoin.

----------


## Dark_Horse_Rider

Reddit had article by a user riverflop

stated that a trustee of Mt Gox, had sold several thousand at a time and showed a chart that illustrated major dips after each selloff

----------


## dannno

> Reddit had article by a user riverflop
> 
> stated that a trustee of Mt Gox, had sold several thousand at a time and showed a chart that illustrated major dips after each selloff


Maybe he should give me my half bitcoin back.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Saw a post on a different site mentioning 40,000 Bitcoin dumped into market by Mt. Gox associate during past 2-3 months


Link:  http://fortune.com/2018/03/07/nobuak...sells-bitcoin/




> *Bitcoin's Famed Tokyo Whale Sold $400 Million and He's Not Done Yet*
> 
> He’s not your typical Bitcoin whale, but Nobuaki Kobayashi has become a force to be reckoned with in the cryptocurrency world.
> 
> The Tokyo attorney and bankruptcy trustee for the now-defunct Mt. Gox exchange disclosed on Wednesday that he sold about $400 million worth of Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash since late September. Kobayashi is sitting on another $1.9 billion of the tokens and will consider offloading those too as he raises cash to distribute to Mt. Gox’s creditors.
> 
> Once the world’s biggest Bitcoin exchange, Mt. Gox filed for bankruptcy protection four years ago after disclosing that it lost 850,000 Bitcoins, then worth about $500 million. The company, which later said it recovered about 200,000 Bitcoins, blamed hackers for the loss.
> 
> While Kobayashi didn’t provide details on his strategy for offloading the coins, he said he tried to get “as high a price as possible.” Disclosures in his report on the Mt. Gox website suggest his Bitcoin sales since September fetched the equivalent of $10,105 on average. The cryptocurrency was trading at $10,554 as of 10:17 a.m. London time on Wednesday.





> showed a chart that illustrated *major dips after each selloff*


Bitcoin market is small enough one big trader can have a huge impact on its price.

----------


## Dark_Horse_Rider

with an anomaly like Mt Gox. . .

. . .but we all know what one person in charge of a printing press at the Fed can do. . .

seems there are plenty of folks willing to take their chances on Crypto

----------


## Mordan

lol half of the people here are clueless.

it feels so good understanding and knowing what's going on.

MtGox Trustee eventually dumping his coins to pay claims in YEN is extremely bullish news with a short term bearish fud crash.

Gox's ghost is at last going to die. Remaining BTC will not be sold. They will be given to shareholders OR to the civil rehab (which I hope)

----------


## Zippyjuan

Lil Windex drops BitCoin music video.

----------


## kahless

> lol half of the people here are clueless.
> 
> it feels so good understanding and knowing what's going on.
> 
> MtGox Trustee eventually dumping his coins to pay claims in YEN is extremely bullish news with a short term bearish fud crash.
> 
> Gox's ghost is at last going to die. Remaining BTC will not be sold. They will be given to shareholders OR to the civil rehab (which I hope)


How is it bullish when every time the trustee sold thousands of coins it tanked the market for which it has not bounced back?

----------


## devil21

> How is it bullish when every time the trustee sold thousands of coins it tanked the market for which it has not bounced back?


It's not and Mordan knows it.  He should have been banned long ago for being a foreign pump and dump scammer trying to bilk people with his bad english pumper bull$#@!.

----------


## anaconda

$8,656

----------


## Zippyjuan

> $8,656


Only a $2000 decline in one week.

----------


## anaconda

> Only a $2000 decline in one week.


Indeed. And directly following a week of only a $2000 increase.

----------


## devil21

> Indeed. And directly following a week of only a $2000 increase.


That means it's shearin' time again.

----------


## Mordan

lol back to 9800$ now down to 9200$.

stop whining girls. enjoy the ride.

----------


## kpitcher

Last Week Tonight did a decent overview of Bitcoin and alt coins and the ICO craziness.

----------


## TheTexan

At this rate I predict Bitcoin and all other cryptocurrencies will hit $0 within 3 weeks.

You read it here first.

----------


## devil21

> Last Week Tonight did a decent overview of Bitcoin and alt coins and the ICO craziness.


Herdin' the sheeps.

It's been an experience watching how the money powers roll out the new paradigm.

----------


## kpitcher

> At this rate I predict Bitcoin and all other cryptocurrencies will hit $0 within 3 weeks.
> 
> You read it here first.


 I'll give anyone $1 for those worthless BTC...

----------


## devil21

> I'll give anyone $1 for those worthless BTC...


That's a little too easy.  Would you give them $9000 for a bitcoin now?

----------


## Zippyjuan

Below $7,800.

----------


## Mordan

> Below $7,800.


8300$

----------


## Zippyjuan

https://www.coindesk.com/major-crypt...18-lows-today/




> *Major Cryptocurrencies Are Hitting 2018 Lows Today
> *
> 
> Bitcoin's drop to an 11-day low of *$7,438* is hogging the limelight, as usual, but other cryptocurrencies are struggling, too.
> 
> Today, ether (ETH), Ripple's XRP and bitcoin cash (BCH) all dropped to fresh lows for the year so far. Thursday's market developments highlight the continued crunch in the crypto markets, which has solidified in the months since many crypto-assets soared to all-time highs.
> 
> Indeed, *during the first week of January, the overall market capitalization of the cryptocurrency market exceeded $800 billion - as of today, that figure has dropped to roughly $275 billion,* according to data from CoinMarketCap.
> 
> ...




http://www.businessinsider.com/bitco...is-year-2018-3




> *Bitcoin just grabbed its biggest slice of the crypto pie since last year*
> 
> As the market for digital currencies sheds billions, bitcoin continues to eat up market share.
> 
> During Thursday's trade, the largest crypto made up 45.66% of the total market, its largest slice of the cryptocurrency pie since the beginning of the year. Meanwhile, the total market cap for digital currencies stood at $274 billion, down more than $500 billion from its all-time high.
> 
> The cryptocurrency marketplace, which is* known for its spine-tingling volatility,* saw bitcoin grab market share as it ran up to $20,000 at the end of 2017. As its price fell at the beginning of 2018, and smaller coins saw relative gains, its share bottomed out below 33% in January.
> 
> As uncertainty around regulations and the future of initial coin offerings mounts, it looks like investors are pouring back into bitcoin. Joe DiPasquale, the founder of BitBull Capital, a cryptocurrency fund of funds, said this is a trend that has played out before.
> ...



This week Twitter announced it would ban advertising for Bitcoins.

----------


## Zippyjuan

Currently $6702.

----------


## Krugminator2

The enthusiasm seems to be waning in this thread.  I noticed the number of posts moves in step with the price of Bitcoin.

----------


## dannno

> The enthusiasm seems to be waning in this thread.  I noticed the number of posts moves in step with the price of Bitcoin.


Ok, so when this thread was created it was at $5,000, and now it is at $6,900 so I guess the enthusiasm is greater now then when the thread was created according to your "theory"

----------


## timosman

> Ok, so when this thread was created it was at $5,000, and now it is at $6,900 so I guess the enthusiasm is greater now then when the thread was created according to your "theory"


You need also to look at the velocity and its direction.

----------


## dannno

> You need also to look at the velocity and its direction.


Yup, and the trolls like zippy love to pop in after a big dip

----------


## devil21

Ya gotta know when FODL em...

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Yup, and the trolls like zippy love to pop in after a big dip


You are right.   Since it only goes up we should only post the rises.

----------


## Krugminator2

> Ok, so when this thread was created it was at $5,000, and now it is at $6,900 so I guess the enthusiasm is greater now then when the thread was created according to your "theory"


No that actually isn't my theory at all.  It only has to do with the direction of  price movement and observation that  the maximum number of posts were made when it made sense to liquidate positions.  The time to talk about hodling would be when price is down 70% not when it is extremely overextended.

Anyone was long at 5k and still long the same position at 6800 right now made a catastrophic blunder and should own that.

----------


## William Tell

The all time historical price chart is interesting. https://www.worldcoinindex.com/coin/bitcoin

----------


## Mordan

6900

----------


## Zippyjuan

Somebody made a huge buy today.  https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitco...ross-the-board




> *Bitcoin’s Price Jumps $1,000 In 30 Minutes Of Market Growth Across The Board
> *
> 
> The crypto markets experienced an explosion of growth today, April 12, with Bitcoin (BTC) *jumping more than $1,000 to break $8,000 over just a 30 minute period,* and the rest of the market solidly in the green.
> 
> While no specific events have been confirmed as the reason for the sharp price jumps across the board, Twitter users have speculated that the recent news that *Bitcoin has been declared compliant with Shariah law* – according to a report published online today, April 12 – may have contributed to the spike


Currently down about $500 from that spike above $8,000.

----------


## Mordan

8096

----------


## Davideer

Do you think Bitcoin will reach 20k again? I track it all the time on https://www.crosslytics.com/ and read some predictions on it and want to try invest in BTC soon again. What are your thoughts on it, guys? Maybe you can recommend me something about it too

----------


## devil21

spammer reported^^^

----------


## dannno

> spammer reported^^^

----------


## Mordan

> Do you think Bitcoin will reach 20k again? I track it all the time on https://www.crosslytics.com/ and read some predictions on it and want to try invest in BTC soon again. What are your thoughts on it, guys? Maybe you can recommend me something about it too


yes it will. By next halving in 2020.. it is a 99% given. Just very few people understand that. Those who do hodl and accumulate.
Some crazies like McAfee say that it will be 1 million dollars in 3 years. I don't believe that's likely. But 20k... of course.

----------


## kpitcher

It appears with Bitcoin climbing it's pulling some of the other coins upwards also. Not sure how long this trend goes but it'd be nice for this to be an across the board climb like the end of 2017.

----------


## dannno

$9430

----------


## dannno

$9636

----------


## devil21

$8280

----------


## kahless

$7661. 

Anyone care to speculate on the continued downward trajectory?  mt.gox continued dumping?  I remember reading somewhere that sale of their coins by the trustee would not effect the markets?

----------


## kahless

Bitcoin Price Faces Bear Indicator Not Seen Since 2014
https://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-clo...en-since-2014/



> This time around, the bearish crossover will likely occur at the turn of the month, if bitcoin extends the current decline towards the $7,000 mark, and would open the doors for a deeper sell-off towards the $5,000 mark.

----------


## dannno

*MIT Tests Smart Contract-Powered Bitcoin Lightning Network
https://www.coindesk.com/mit-testing...tning-network/

*


> An MIT test is providing a rare glimpse of how bitcoin might truly work at scale.Revealed to CoinDesk last week, the prestigious U.S. university has been quietly demoing an experimental use case for bitcoin's lightning network, one that showcases how it might be combined with smart contracts to not only handle millions of transactions, but do so with a greater degree of complexity.
> 
> Modeled within the school's Digital Currency Initiative, started in 2015 as a way to further R&D on cryptocurrencies, the test envisions a system wherein transactions would take place automatically in the case of defined external events, based on say today's weather or the current price of U.S. dollars.
> 
> This is possible due to MIT's creative use of so-called "oracles," trusted entities meant to broadcast data to smart contracts. For this demo, researchers Tadge Dryja and Alin S. Dragos built a test oracle to broadcast the recent price of U.S. dollars in satoshis, the smallest unit of bitcoins, which anyone can grab and use for their smart contracts.
> 
> It's a notable step forward for the idea, one first proposed by lightning inventor Dryja last summer. However, this is the first time it's been implemented as a prototype with working code.
> 
> Dragos told CoinDesk:
> ...

----------


## devil21

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...t-manipulation




> According to Bloomberg, the DOJ has opened a criminal investigation into whether large bitcoin traders - so-called "whales" - are manipulating the price of bitcoin. Market manipulation has been an increasingly popular topic in crypto world - particularly since prices started their historic surge.


Bullish!

----------


## Zippyjuan

Going to hit $5,000 again- in the other direction?  Dropped below $6,000 today.  Lowest since October.  Year to date is is off more than 50% ($13,500 as the year started). It was almost $20,000 in December (peaked Dec 6 at 19,350). Lost two thirds of its value since then  (however, it is still double what it was a year ago so the bubble may have a ways more to deflate).

----------


## Danke

> Going to hit $5,000 again- in the other direction?  Dropped below $6,000 today.  Lowest since October.  Year to date is is off more than 50% ($13,500 as the year started). It was almost $20,000 in December (peaked Dec 6 at 19,350). Lost two thirds of its value since then.



I'l bet Kludge who was mining by 2011 is still doing well.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> I'l bet Kludge who was mining by 2011 is still doing well.


It was only about $5 back then.

----------


## Danke

> It was only about $5 back then.



Yep.   Maybe why he let the forums.  Probably in the islands with hookers and blow.

I bought some from him when it had already reached ~$600

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Yep.   Maybe why he let the forums.  Probably in the islands with hookers and blow.
> 
> I bought some from him when it had already reached ~$600


That's not to bad either! It is just to volatile for me (plus I see it more as a gimmick than a real investment)

----------


## devil21

The $5760 low today was the lowest since before the Dec run-up.

----------


## dannno

> Do you think it is a good idea to invest in Bitcoin or maybe look for some opportunities with some altcoins?


I recommend you have some of both, whether it's 95% alt coin and 5% bitcoin or 95% bitcoin and 5% alt coin, or somewhere in the middle, some diversity is usually a good idea. Depends on whether you think bitcoin will continue to be the dominate coin and if it will have significant gains like it has in the past. Lightning network is still in testing phase, some say it is going well, others are saying there are issues - but that study that came out the other day saying there are issues actually hit the upper bounds of some artificial limits that have been put in place on the test network and those in the know say it is working just fine. Alt coins will probably do very well in the future as well, but it can be harder to predict which ones might do the best and which ones will be duds.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Do you think it is a good idea to invest in Bitcoin or maybe look for some opportunities with some altcoins?


Like anything speculative, don't put in any more money than you can afford to lose. You should first have about a year's worth of expenses money put away first to cover things should you find yourself unemployed for whatever reason so you can pay your bills while looking for a new job.

----------


## devil21

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...s-4-week-highs




> The exchange also says it has rolled back all the irregular trades, and offers anyone who was negatively affected by trading during the rising SYS prices a zero-free [sic- fee] trading regime from July 5 through July 14.
> 
> All other Binance users will be given a 70-percent rebate on trading fees throughout the same period, paid out in the platform’s native token, Binance Coin (BNB).


The way you can tell that all of these crypto exchanges are run by the usual banker suspects is that their "mistakes" take your earned money and then to "fix" the mistake they give you "credits" back.  Credits that the exchanges (or brokerages, if drawing comparison to stock markets) create at will.  You lose your earned money.  They give you created crap.

----------


## MaryJanet

*Bitcoin Analysis - Getting bumped higher, but stepping pattern could gas out. $6707*

----------


## Kennethtrainor

Bitcoin price declined sharply and broke the $8,060 support level against the US Dollar.

----------


## dannno

LOL

----------


## devil21

Oh look it's this thread being accurate again, just as predicted.

The Tether "fake dollar valuation" scam is unwinding as everyone cashes out.  I wonder if there are any "oops, sorry we don't have the cash to fulfill your redemption" bagholders yet...

----------


## Zippyjuan

> The $4500-5k range wasn't properly tested during the last bull cycle, as it *was manipulated all the way up to $20k*. Here we are in a final capitulation area before the coming trend reversal. It has nothing to do w/ a fork or confusion from other coins or tokens. Institutional money put the last bull market on steroids then deliberately and systematically controlled the demolition on the way down, killing the mom and pops who panic bought on the way up. The last halving took place in July of 2016 so go and look at the charts leading up to that and beyond. Next halving takes place in 2020 and you'll see a repeat of another bull trend leading up to it and beyond. This capitulation area is the new $180-220 range of 2015's bear market. In other words, this range is a great entry point for bitcoin and many of the other coins/tokens. We've been talking cryptos here since before the last bear market and you all had the chance to ride the last wave up. Your next shot is coming.


https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/20/regu...illegally.html




> *As bitcoin nosedives, regulators said to be investigating whether it was propped up illegally*
> 
> The U.S. Justice Department is reportedly looking into whether traders used another cryptocurrency called tether to bid up bitcoin prices during its 1,300 percent rally last year.
> 
> Federal prosecutors launched a broader criminal probe into cryptocurrencies earlier this year but now suspect that traders on crypto exchange Bitfinex may have been moving prices illegally, Bloomberg reported, citing three people familiar with the matter.
> 
> The news comes amidst bitcoins 16 percent price drop on Tuesday.
> 
> As bitcoin continued its downward slide Tuesday, U.S. regulators are reportedly looking into whether its record-breaking rally last year was the result of market manipulation.
> ...


Presently below $4300.

----------


## devil21

> The $4500-5k range wasn't properly tested during the last bull cycle, as it was manipulated all the way up to $20k. Here we are in a final capitulation area before the coming trend reversal. It has nothing to do w/ a fork or confusion from other coins or tokens. Institutional money put the last bull market on steroids then deliberately and systematically controlled the demolition on the way down, killing the mom and pops who panic bought on the way up. The last halving took place in July of 2016 so go and look at the charts leading up to that and beyond. Next halving takes place in 2020 and you'll see a repeat of another bull trend leading up to it and beyond. This capitulation area is the new $180-220 range of 2015's bear market. In other words, this range is a great entry point for bitcoin and many of the other coins/tokens. We've been talking cryptos here since before the last bear market and you all had the chance to ride the last wave up. Your next shot is coming.


After so many people lost their shirts chasing cryptos a year ago, how big of a pool of new suckers do you think they can really muster to run it up again?  I'm thinking that by the time any 2020 fork or whatever rolls around, the _real_ crypto/blockchain from the bankers will be in full usage and few will bother with bitcoin and the rest anymore.  Bitcoin served it's purpose of introducing the masses to the idea of cryptocurrency/blockchain and some "made" (read: stole) a lot of money in the process and others got killed.

eta:  I'd love to see some of the people that lost their shirts on bitcoin string up Tom Lee and Brian Kelly.  Those two CNBC dicks spent the last year lying through their teeth about cryptos.

----------


## Zippyjuan

Last Thanksgiving, people were hyping Bitcoin and even the average person talking about it and even buying some (sure sign of a bubble when the average Joe wants to get in on the action).  Bitcoin soared to almost $20,000.  This year, the talk of bitcoin is about how it is going down and the fork makes bitcoins even more confusing to the average person- lowering their potential interest in it.  The initial promise was of a single "coin" in limited quantities which you could easily use to make purchases and its limited supply would mean its value would only go up as demand rose.  Instead multiple new coins have come into being and even Bitcoin itself has split into other entities. It isn't easy to use for the average person and the supply is no longer limited- the variations of coins seem to be rising even faster than any demand. Instead of being used for purchases and every day transactions, buyers are now mostly serious bitcoin geeks hoping to make money.  The buyers are increasingly becoming just each other as the "average Joe" has lost interest. Expanding supply- shrinking demand- a certain recipe for lower prices.

----------


## kahless

> Last Thanksgiving, people were hyping Bitcoin and even the average person talking about it and even buying some (sure sign of a bubble when the average Joe wants go tet in on the action).  Bitcoin soared to almost $20,000.  This year, the talk of bitcoin is about how it is going down and the fork makes bitcoins even more confusing to the average person- lowering their potential interest in it.  The initial promise was of a single "coin" in limited quantities which you could easily use to make purchases and its limited supply would mean its value would only go up as demand rose.  Instead multiple new coins have come into being and even Bitcoin itself has split into other entities. It isn't easy to use for the average person and the supply is no longer limited- the variations of coins seem to be rising even faster than any demand. Instead of being used for purchases and every day transactions, buyers are now mostly serious bitcoin geeks hoping to make money.  The buyers are increasingly becoming just each other as the "average Joe" has lost interest. Expanding supply- shrinking demand- a certain recipe for lower prices.


I agree. I think the exchanges and sites like Coinmarketcap should have ignored other currencies.  Just trade and keep the top few listed, Bitcoin, Ripple, Ethereum and Litecoin.  Their greed with these forks screwed themselves and the rest of us.

----------


## Zippyjuan

Bitcoin now below $3800.

----------


## idiom

> Bitcoin now below $3800.


That's just the cyber Monday sale.

----------


## Schifference

Should I wait for it to go to $5000 before I buy?

----------


## oyarde

> Should I wait for it to go to $5000 before I buy?


Buy low sell high .

----------


## Madison320

How long before Bitcoin<Gold again?

----------


## Zippyjuan

Bitcoin bumped back over $4,000 today.

----------


## Zippyjuan

Still falling.  Bitcoin about $3200 today.

----------


## dannno

One of my friends has been calling a bottom at around $2800 for a long, long time. Some kinda Fibonacci calculation.

----------


## Schifference

3,421.93 United States Dollar

----------


## dannno

4,775

----------


## dannno

$5136

----------


## kpitcher

The reports of Bitcoin's death were greatly exaggerated.


The last time BTC tumbled more than 80% it took around 2 years to recover. That may make the end of the year interesting.

----------


## Mordan

i went through hell and back..

2018 was actually relaxing... 

But there ain't enough blood though. Too many $#@! coins. Its going to take years for the public to get educated.

----------


## Zippyjuan

https://www.coindesk.com/google-sear...since-november




> *Google Searches for ‘Bitcoin’ Hit Highest Total Since November*
> 
> Trading back above $5,000, more eyes are on the world’s largest cryptocurrency, bitcoin, than have been in nearly 19 weeks, a fact affirmed as worldwide Google searches for “bitcoin” currently hover at levels not seen since Nov. 20.
> 
> Google Trend data reveals the spike in searches was single-handedly achieved on April 2 when the price of the cryptocurrency surged nearly 20 percent in a single hour to clock $4,961, its highest price since Nov. 19, according to CoinDesk’s price data.
> 
> While Google Trends does not provide the exact number of searches, it is apparent the amount of worldwide “bitcoin” searches reached 90 percent of what it was on Nov. 20, as is shown below.
> 
> Indeed, “bitcoin” searches sky-rocketed on Tuesday as investors, traders and the media alike were searching for reasons as to why bitcoin’s price surged.
> ...


Search has since dropped off- they rank that day's spike as an index of 100 and rate today compared to that as only 39- meaning only 39% of the search activity as was observed during the spikes on April 1st and April 3rd. Putting the high from December 2017 (matching $20,000 value of one Bitcoin) at 100, google searches this week were only seven percent of what it was then.  Last time the Bitcoin Search was this low was May 2017 when Bitcoin was about $1500 each.

----------


## dannno

$7,375.68

----------


## Mordan

as usual.. it goes up after going down.

i bought all the dips from 10k to 3k..

pop corn time.. will buy more if it dips below 5k

----------


## dannno

$7,891.62

----------


## Zippyjuan

Will it get to $1 million by the end of next year so that John McAfee does not have to eat his private parts on TV?

----------


## Cloutio

High again, wow... Cool...

----------


## Bern

> Oh look it's this thread being accurate again, just as predicted.
> 
> The Tether "fake dollar valuation" scam is unwinding as everyone cashes out.  I wonder if there are any "oops, sorry we don't have the cash to fulfill your redemption" bagholders yet...





> Lost among the current bout of cryptocurrency euphoria is the fact that capital outflows are exceeding inflows on some of the biggest digital-asset exchanges.
> 
> While that may sound counter intuitive to the basic laws of supply and demand with prices of Bitcoin and other tokens surging, it’s not that rare an occurrence in a market that has been dogged by allegations of fraud and manipulation over its decade long existence. TokenAnalyst, a London-based provider of blockchain data, estimates that withdrawals from trading platforms including Bitfinex, BitMEX, Binance and Kraken have exceeded inflows by about $622 million over the past 5 days.
> 
> Bitcoin’s more than 30% price rise since last week may have been exaggerated by capital flight from the controversial exchange Bitfinex and its affiliated stablecoin Tether in the wake of allegations that the companies that control both co-mingled client and corporate funds to hide losses. As in past periods of turmoil, investors are seen seeking the safety of Bitcoin because it’s the largest and most liquid token.
> 
> “Since Tether is insufficiently backed, it means that some of the reserves backing customer assets on exchanges are likely insufficient,” John Griffin, a finance professor at University of Texas at Austin who had examined cryptocurrency market manipulation, said in an email. “So smart customers will not custody their funds on exchanges and pull their crypto off exchanges. This could put further upward pressure on Bitcoin prices as one would rather take fake money and exchange it to Bitcoin.”
> ...


More:  https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ypto-exchanges

----------


## kpitcher

Tether is only used for transfers among exchanges. With the long history of problems with Tether I'm surprised anyone actually keeps funds in it for more than the short transaction time between exchanges. If anyone has tether and is worried about being able to cash out, move tether to bitcoin and then btc to fiat. Extra step and minor costs but no worries.

----------


## DilanShark

it's growing constantly

----------


## Mordan

9000+

----------


## dannno

Got up to $11,172 recently, currently $10,690

----------


## Zippyjuan

Facebook bump?  News of Facebook thinking about their own odd currency bringing Bitcoin back into the news.

----------


## jkr

> Will it get to $1 million by the end of next year so that John McAfee does not have to eat his private parts on TV?


tic
tok

----------


## jkr

2
da
m00n

----------


## Zippyjuan

> tic
> tok


One estimate was that it would take one quarter of all the money in the world invested in bitcoin to make one worth $1 million.

----------


## dannno

> One estimate was that it would take one quarter of all the money in the world invested in bitcoin to make one worth $1 million.


Does that account for all the bitcoins that are lost in the ether?

----------


## dannno

> One estimate was that it would take one quarter of all the money in the world invested in bitcoin to make one worth $1 million.


The answer is no, it doesn't account for all the bitcoins lost in the ether. It assumes all bitcoins are still available to people who may have lost them or past on. 

 But since we don't know how many bitcoins are missing, let's do the most conservative estimate possible and pretend that none of them are missing.

There is still a much bigger elephant in the room that your study didn't consider.

The $80 trillion worth of global currencies in circulation which is what the estimate you cited used (I did the math and figured out that is the figure they used), let's add to that people's wealth/savings. Some estimate that to be worth $250 trillion. 

If the world converted 5% of their savings to bitcoin, and bitcoin was 10% of global currency, bitcoin would be worth over $1.2 million - conservatively. After accounting for lost bitcoins, it could be worth around $2 million, or possibly more.

----------


## Zippyjuan

The  calculation I saw looked at the market capitalization of bitcoin and the price at that amount invested. Total market cap would be $21 trillion while money supply is $80 trillion (can't find it right now). That would be one quarter of all money.

https://medium.com/altcoin-magazine/...in-36c3cf6aa6c




> A $20 Trillion market cap against a Bitcoin supply of 18m coins gives a price of over $1m per Bitcoin.


The more people hype ridiculous potential value for things, the better it is to stay away from them- they are probably in a bubble.

----------


## Bern

> ... The stock market has just over $30 trillion in total market capitalization, meaning the value of all outstanding shares, while the total amount of debt owed through bonds is more than $40 trillion. ...


https://finance.zacks.com/bond-marke...size-5863.html




> ... According to the most recent data from the Bank for International Settlements (BIS), the total notional amounts outstanding for contracts in the derivatives market is an estimated $542.4 trillion. But the gross market value of all contracts to be significantly less: approximately $12.7 trillion. ...


https://www.investopedia.com/ask/ans...ves-market.asp

----------


## dannno

> The  calculation I saw looked at the market capitalization of bitcoin and the price at that amount invested. Total market cap would be $21 trillion while money supply is $80 trillion (can't find it right now). That would be one quarter of all money.
> 
> https://medium.com/altcoin-magazine/...in-36c3cf6aa6c
> 
> 
> 
> The more people hype ridiculous potential value for things, the better it is to stay away from them- they are probably in a bubble.


Thank you for pointing out to everybody here that you don't actually argue against the content of people's posts.

----------


## dannno

$12,795

----------


## jkr

hold?


yes


2 da
 M00N!

----------


## devil21

Just like I asked during the last run-up, is anyone trying to cash out at these prices?  Never got a single affirmative reply last time.  I'm genuinely curious how liquid these exchanges really are...or are you hodling something that has a high dollar value but without the liquidity to actually redeem it?

----------


## dannno

> Just like I asked during the last run-up, is anyone trying to cash out at these prices?  Never got a single affirmative reply last time.  I'm genuinely curious how liquid these exchanges really are...


I bought some gold, it worked fine.

----------


## devil21

> I bought some gold, it worked fine.


A very wise choice.  Doesn't answer my question about cashing out, though.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> I'm genuinely curious how liquid these exchanges really are...


The volatility suggests "not very"

----------


## dannno

> The volatility suggests "not very"


Wouldn't it be the opposite?

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> Wouldn't it be the opposite?


Less liquid markets tend to be more volatile.

Compare penny stocks and FOREX, for two extremes.

----------


## dannno

> Less liquid markets tend to be more volatile.
> 
> Compare penny stocks and FOREX, for two extremes.


I'm just trying to reconcile how a market with high volatility, which remains solvent, is lacking liquidity compared to a market that remains relatively constant, and thus does not require the same amount of liquidity to stay solvent as long as the market remains non-volatile.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> I'm just trying to reconcile how a market with high volatility, which remains solvent, is lacking liquidity compared to a market that remains relatively constant, and thus does not require the same amount of liquidity to stay solvent as long as the market remains non-volatile.


I don't know what you mean when you talk about a market being solvent. Solvency applies to firms, not markets.

And I'm not sure that you know what I mean when I say liquidity.

More liquidity doesn't have anything to do with whether the market is rising or falling.

A more liquid markets just means one in which there are more buyers/sellers.

E.G. The NYC car market is more liquid than the Podunk WV car market.

Or the market for oil is more liquid than the market for antique spittoons.

----------


## dannno

> I don't know what you mean when you talk about a market being solvent. Solvency applies to firms, not markets.
> 
> And I'm not sure that you know what I mean when I say liquidity.
> 
> More liquidity doesn't have anything to do with whether the market is rising or falling.
> 
> A more liquid markets just means one in which there are more buyers/sellers.
> 
> E.G. The NYC car market is more liquid than the Podunk WV car market.
> ...



The question that was originally asked was whether you could go to coinbase.com and sell your bitcoin and cash it out when the price is high. 

So the question is whether there is enough liquidity for places like coinbase to pay out the cash. 

Well, people are buying bitcoin at high prices, with cash, so the cash would then be available to those who cash out. 

Typically when bitcoin prices go high, the volume is high. There haven't been any issues with solvency at coinbase and it has made it through a lot of bitcoin volatility. 

So I'm not sure why there would be a huge concern.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> The question that was originally asked was whether you could go to coinbase.com and sell your bitcoin and cash it out when the price is high. 
> 
> So the question is whether there is enough liquidity for places like coinbase to pay out the cash. 
> 
> Well, people are buying bitcoin at high prices, with cash, so the cash would then be available to those who cash out. 
> 
> Typically when bitcoin prices go high, the volume is high. There haven't been any issues with solvency at coinbase and it has made it through a lot of bitcoin volatility. 
> 
> So I'm not sure why there would be a huge concern.


Is coinbase doing the buying/selling themselves, or are they an intermediary between their customers buying/selling to each other?

----------


## dannno

> Is coinbase doing the buying/selling themselves, or are they an intermediary between their customers buying/selling to each other?


As far as I know, both.

They have a separate exchange that is just for trading cyrpto called GDAX, and then they have their buying/selling main platform where you can buy crypto with your bank account or sell bitcoin and have it cashed out to your bank account.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> As far as I know, both.
> 
> They have a separate exchange that is for trading, and then they have their buying/selling main platform where you can buy bitcoin with your bank account or sell bitcoin and have it cashed out to your bank account.


As far as coinbase's own financial situation, I have no idea.

As for trading on their exchange (or any other), which is what I was talking about, the cash isn't sitting in a vault somewhere.

If I sold you some BTC last month on an exchange, that doesn't mean I'm going to be there to buy tomorrow when you try to sell.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Is coinbase doing the buying/selling themselves, or are they an intermediary between their customers buying/selling to each other?


There was this article from earlier this year (March) :  https://www.forbes.com/sites/cbovair.../#70329eac6717




> *95% Of Reported Bitcoin Trading Volume Is Fake, Says Bitwise
> *
> 
> While many use CoinMarketCap as a go-to resource for cryptocurrency market data, roughly 95% of bitcoin trading volume reported by this website is fake, according to a Bitwise Asset Management report.
> 
> CoinMarketCap reports approximately $6 billion per day in bitcoin trading volume, but the actual figure is $273 million, or roughly 4.5% of the reported amount, according to Bitwise.
> 
> [Ed note: Investing in cryptocoins or tokens is highly speculative and the market is largely unregulated. Anyone considering it should be prepared to lose their entire investment.]
> 
> ...


More at link.

----------


## devil21

> I don't know what you mean when you talk about a market being solvent. Solvency applies to firms, not markets.
> 
> And I'm not sure that you know what I mean when I say liquidity.
> 
> More liquidity doesn't have anything to do with whether the market is rising or falling.
> 
> A more liquid markets just means one in which there are more buyers/sellers.
> 
> E.G. The NYC car market is more liquid than the Podunk WV car market.
> ...


I meant liquidity in the sense of easily receiving cash back out of an exchange/market after selling.  Yes, having buyers and sellers is a measure of a liquid market but that assumes the cash is there in the first place to complete the transactions and then cash out.  I'm wondering if these exchanges aren't mostly just a way of draining fiat out of the system, since it seems few actually cash back out into fiat.

----------


## Zippyjuan

Bubble popping already?  Or just a profit taking pull back? Hit near $14,000 then tumbled to about $11,000.  https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitco...210332829.html

----------


## Mordan

> I meant liquidity in the sense of easily receiving cash back out of an exchange/market after selling.  Yes, having buyers and sellers is a measure of a liquid market but that assumes the cash is there in the first place to complete the transactions and then cash out.  I'm wondering if these exchanges aren't mostly just a way of draining fiat out of the system, since it seems few actually cash back out into fiat.



liquidity depends on the amount being sold. Can China sell all its US bonds instantly? No. Are US bonds liquid? Yes.

At my level, i have cashed out in fiat life changing amounts. Enough for the taxman to come knocking on my door.

I still keep a majority of my networth in Bitcoin. Best saving account ever.  You have to hodl, buy the dip and sell small percentages at blown out tops.

So when looking at my currently very humble networth.. Some rich people can afford to splash on easily until 100k usd a bitcoin.

----------


## devil21

> liquidity depends on the amount being sold. Can China sell all its US bonds instantly? No. Are US bonds liquid? Yes.
> 
> At my level, i have cashed out in fiat life changing amounts. Enough for the taxman to come knocking on my door.
> 
> I still keep a majority of my networth in Bitcoin. Best saving account ever.  You have to hodl, buy the dip and sell small percentages at blown out tops.
> 
> So when looking at my currently very humble networth.. Some rich people can afford to splash on easily until 100k usd a bitcoin.


A few people selling their bitcoins at these high valuations and China cashing out their entire bond holdings at once are hugely different scenarios.  In one instance I'm talking about a few hundred thousand maybe and in the other trillion+.  I'm asking the question of anyone that, say, bought 50 bitcoin at $300 and has since cashed out 25 at once for $250k.  That's the measure of a ponzi scheme.  But it's also worth noting that the Chinese bond scenario is a test of a ponzi also.  Don't have the cash (digital or otherwise) to fulfill a large redemption?  You're running a ponzi.

----------


## RonPaulIsGreat

> Just like I asked during the last run-up, is anyone trying to cash out at these prices?  Never got a single affirmative reply last time.  I'm genuinely curious how liquid these exchanges really are...or are you hodling something that has a high dollar value but without the liquidity to actually redeem it?


I believe I answered you last time, I cashed some out, and depostied into my bank account. This isn't hard to do.

----------


## devil21

> I believe I answered you last time, I cashed some out, and depostied into my bank account. This isn't hard to do.


I ask because every time there's a pump and dump in bitcoin, there's suddenly bunches of posts on forums practically begging people to put their money into it.  It comes off like there's not actually enough cash in the exchanges for the pumpers to cash out of the pump unless new marks put it in.

----------


## Mordan

> I ask because every time there's a pump and dump in bitcoin, there's suddenly bunches of posts on forums practically begging people to put their money into it.  It comes off like there's not actually enough cash in the exchanges for the pumpers to cash out of the pump unless new marks put it in.


we ask because that's how we got in the first place. That's how we saw the light.

And we want other people to join the fun in breaking the power of central banks.

Did I complain about people buying at 10 USD when i first bought at 1000 usd?

Smart money knows when to fold.

----------


## devil21

> we ask because that's how we got in the first place. That's how we saw the light.
> 
> *And we want other people to join the fun in breaking the power of central banks.*
> 
> Did I complain about people buying at 10 USD when i first bought at 1000 usd?
> 
> Smart money knows when to fold.


Yeah Im sure that's exactly what it is and that crypto is totally breaking those central banks.  Still buying that fairy tale I see.

----------


## Mordan

> Yeah Im sure that's exactly what it is and that crypto is totally breaking those central banks.  Still buying that fairy tale I see.

----------


## Krugminator2

Pretty big selloff. Bitcoin probably not making new recent highs above 14k in the next couple of weeks. Kind of in no mans land right now.   A lot of negative news lately. If it shrugs that news off and consolidates and gets footing and works its way for a run higher over the  next few months, will likely make an all time high at some point. If it fails hard probably the end of the road for Bitcoin for a long while.

----------


## oyarde

I am holding out for 1 million .

----------


## Zippyjuan

> I am holding out for 1 million .


McAfee says by the end of next year-  or he eats his private parts.

Big drop this week. Bitcoin has lost almost $3000 since June 26th and is back near $10,000.

----------


## dannno

> McAfee says by the end of next year-  or he eats his private parts.
> 
> Big drop this week. Bitcoin has lost almost $3000 since June 26th and is back near $10,000.


Funny how you mention the $3000 drop, but not the $5000 increase in the same month.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Funny how you mention the $3000 drop, but not the $5000 increase in the same month.


Almost as funny as you not commenting on the price as it went from $20,000 to about $3,000.

----------


## dannno

> Almost as funny as you not commenting on the price as it went from $20,000 to about $3,000.


Actually I did, but you failed to comment on the price going from $250 - $20,000 first.

----------


## Krugminator2

Bitcoin really taking a $#@! right now at 9250. It looks like death.  Wouldn't be surprised if this is shakeout and has a bounce. Might wake up early and look to buy. Gut feeling is lot of people using this spot as a place to exit thinking trend is over. Would like to get a flush to 9k

----------


## Zippyjuan

Retreated 27% in a week.  Believed related to the publicity surrounding Facebook's currency.  It rose as the Facebook story made the news and now questions are being raised about it, bitcoin is going down.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitco...libra-concerns




> *Bitcoin Price Slips 10% in 24 Hrs as Fed Raises Facebook Libra Concerns*
> 
> Data from Coin360 sees the majority of cryptocurrencies firmly in the red Thursday, hours after Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell said Facebook’s offering should not continue development.
> 
> Libra, which aims to act firstly as a cross-border payment method, allegedly buoyed Bitcoin throughout recent weeks, with commentators arguing its public profile was driving publicity and uptake of Bitcoin itself. 
> 
> Powell’s demands, which follow similar words from representatives of the Senate House of Financial Services Committee, leant weight to that theory.
> 
> “Libra raises serious concerns regarding privacy, money laundering, consumer protection, financial stability,” he said during a speech before a congressional committee. “These are concerns that should be thoroughly and publicly addressed.”


More at link.

And on the way up: 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/billyba.../#8801a576e22b




> *Facebook Libra Interest Spikes, Pushing The Bitcoin Price On*
> 
> Facebook, the social media giant that's found itself caught in a web of scandals over recent years, is gearing up to release details of its much-hyped potential rival to the world's biggest cryptocurrency, bitcoin, with a white paper detailing plans for Facebook Libra expected later today.
> 
> The bitcoin price has surged over the last few months as interest in payments from the likes of Facebook, other major social media platforms, and some of Silicon Valley's most valuable companies sparks a fresh wave of crypto mania after the bitcoin price slumped sharply throughout 2018.

----------


## DilanShark

One can monitor Bitcoin price on the Internet. By the way, what sources do you use for this purpose? Usually I just surf the pages of result. Also I check cryptolinks in order to find all necessary information about cryptocurrency. What sites can you recommend?

----------


## Krugminator2

Pretty big undercut and rally to 10.5k

----------


## Mordan

9.5k

Store of Value!

----------


## Zippyjuan

> 9.5k
> 
> Store of Value!


If you consider losing 25% of its value in the past month "storing value".  It was up to around $13,000.   It is too volatile to be considered a 
"store of value".

----------


## Mordan

11.8k

Store of Value.

Anyone who bought and hodled when this post started is on massive gains.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> 11.8k
> 
> *Store of Value.
> *
> Anyone who bought and hodled when this post started is on massive gains.


Stocks are up.  Would you say they are a "store of value"?   Even after the recent price hikes, BitCoin is still almost 50% below its high.  Does that make it a "store of value"?  What do you consider a "store of value"?

----------


## kpitcher



----------


## Mordan

15.5k

Store of value.

Overperforming gold this month of turmoil.

----------


## Mordan

18k

nobody cares hahaha.

----------


## RonPaulIsGreat

It's down to 17895 from 18500. Some store of value! hahaha.... It'll crash next time to 22.5, then next time to 30K... Always crashing!

----------


## dannno

> 18k
> 
> nobody cares hahaha.


Already spent years trying to convince patriots and freedom lovers to get on board. Obviously I don't care if zippy buys any. If you're not onboard already, well, it's still probably a pretty good idea to pick some up.

----------


## jkr

> It's down to 17895 from 18500. Some store of value! hahaha.... It'll crash next time to 22.5, then next time to 30K... Always crashing!


its anti-GRAVITY !
its anti-FRN
it is, NOT, emp proof
i wish mine hadnt been stolen

----------


## Mordan

> Already spent years trying to convince patriots and freedom lovers to get on board. Obviously I don't care if zippy buys any. If you're not onboard already, well, it's still probably a pretty good idea to pick some up.


the problem is that the less distributed Bitcoin is, the more incentives jealous buttcoiners have to pass law to make life miserable to people like us.

Its happening already. The BTC -> Fiat ramp are regulated to the extreme. The burden of proof will be one you.

It will be an Orwellian "show us proof that you didn't commit fraud using your crypto"

----------


## dannno

Nearing the all time high..

$19,229.50

----------


## r3volution 3.0

Bitcoin remains, in essence, a no-earnings tech stock. Other than the network effect (i.e. it has value because it has value), which cannot support the price of anything long term (see the story of every speculative mania), the only support for bitcoin is its utility as a payment processing system. I don't think it's a useful payment processing system right now, let alone the dominant system of the future. But, hey, Tesla's trading at a p/e ratio over 1000. What could go wrong?

----------


## Mordan

ATH

Its not a tech stock.. Its a completely new thing. Sorry if you don't do your own open minded research. For a start, its a public ledger notarized by gazillions watts of energy.






> Bitcoin remains, in essence, a no-earnings tech stock.


Rescind your statement or 

Are you an intellectual fraud like the liberals?

----------


## devil21

> ATH
> 
> Its not a tech stock.. Its a completely new thing. Sorry if you don't do your own open minded research. For a start, its a public ledger notarized by gazillions watts of energy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rescind your statement or 
> ...


It's completely new!  A digital string of 1s and 0s, with buy/sell transactions run through brokerages and exchanges who mostly keep retail transactions in their own dark pools, also who skim off "fees", turn over your info to the Feds for tax purposes, uses a trust structure where the holder of the asset isn't actually the owner of it, has banker run futures markets, and many, many other differences from stock markets.

----------


## dannno

> It's completely new!  A digital string of 1s and 0s, with buy/sell transactions run through brokerages and exchanges who mostly keep retail transactions in their own dark pools, also who skim off "fees", turn over your info to the Feds for tax purposes, uses a trust structure where the holder of the asset isn't actually the owner of it, has banker run futures markets, and many, many other differences from stock markets.


Um, you can also have an offline wallet, meaning that entire post is garbage.

----------


## Mordan

> Um, you can also have an offline wallet, meaning that entire post is garbage.


those blind anti bitcoin people on this forum shows that liberals don't have the monopoly of intellectual fraud.

----------


## devil21

> Um, you can also have an offline wallet, meaning that entire post is garbage.


What exactly is in the offline wallet?  The entire blockchain?

----------


## dannno

> What exactly is in the offline wallet?  The entire blockchain?


A wallet has a private key and a public key. 

The public key is the one I would send you if we wanted to do a transaction, so you could send bitcoin to that public address. You can also use the public key to check the blockchain for the value of a wallet.

The private key is needed to interact with the blockchain to create send transactions.

A wallet is a combination of both, so it will simply read the public blockchain to verify the value of the wallet, and then send a transaction using the private key which is often protected by another layer of cryptography in order to keep the wallet secure. 

The wallet need only be comprised of the public key and private key.

----------


## devil21

> A wallet has a private key and a public key. 
> 
> The public key is the one I would send you if we wanted to do a transaction, so you could send bitcoin to that public address. You can also use the public key to check the blockchain for the value of a wallet.
> 
> The private key is needed to interact with the blockchain to create send transactions.
> 
> A wallet is a combination of both, so it will simply read the public blockchain to verify the value of the wallet, and then send a transaction using the private key which is often protected by another layer of cryptography in order to keep the wallet secure. 
> 
> The wallet need only be comprised of the public key and private key.


So the wallet contains what is essentially the equivalent of a "login credential".  It does not contain "your" bitcoins, does it?  So I'm right back to how the bitcoin asset is not in your possession, just like how stocks are not in your possession, and you are only a holder of the asset, not the owner.  By holder, I mean having an equitable interest in the asset but not ownership.  It really is much more similar to stock markets and a share of a tech stock than unlike it.  In fact, the overall legal model that it's running under is exactly the same as stocks and pretty much everything else, where you have a legal interest in the asset, tied to a nominal dollar value, but not legal ownership.  Same as a registered car, registered real estate, registered business.  The one major difference I do see is that bitcoin isn't really owned by anyone or any particular legal entity, as it is a completely distributed model, while the car, property, etc is actually owned by governments.  Bitcoin is, instead, an ethereal global widget masquerading as an asset, owned by a global legal trust.  Just the fact that it's a global widget shows that it's a globalist banker invention.

----------


## dannno

> So the wallet contains what is essentially the equivalent of a "login credential".  It does not contain "your" bitcoins, does it?  So I'm right back to how the bitcoin asset is not in your possession, just like how stocks are not in your possession, and you are only a holder of the asset, not the owner.  By holder, I mean having an equitable interest in the asset but not ownership.  It really is much more similar to stock markets and a share of a tech stock than unlike it.  In fact, the overall legal model that it's running under is exactly the same as stocks and pretty much everything else, where you have a legal interest in the asset, tied to a nominal dollar value, but not legal ownership.  Same as a registered car, registered real estate, registered business.  The one major difference I do see is that bitcoin isn't really owned by anyone or any particular legal entity, as it is a completely distributed model, while the car, property, etc is actually owned by governments.  Bitcoin is, instead, an ethereal global widget masquerading as an asset, owned by a global legal trust.  Just the fact that it's a global widget shows that it's a globalist banker invention.


You just don't know how it works. If the wallet contained the bitcoins then you could make a copy then transfer them to two different people. The bitcoin are on the blockchain, and you have a complex cryptographic key to access and transfer them to somebody else on the blockchain. That prevents the double spending problem that can occur with other digital assets.

----------


## devil21

> You just don't know how it works. If the wallet contained the bitcoins then you could make a copy then transfer them to two different people. The bitcoin are on the blockchain, and you have a complex cryptographic key to access and transfer them to somebody else on the blockchain. That prevents the double spending problem that can occur with other digital assets.


So the answer is that no, you don't have possession of any bitcoins in your remote wallet.  You don't seem to want to answer the most basic of yes/no questions like that.  

You have in your remote wallet what is essentially an encrypted login credential that gives you access to "your" bitcoins.  The bitcoins remain in the ether, not your possession, just like digital stocks.  You have an encrypted login credential that verifies that you have legal holder status but that's it.  

You're making the concept much more complicated and difficult to understand than it needs to be.  Bankers love that kind of thing.  Making simple concepts sound too complicated to understand.  Bitcoin and altcoins is a stock market for millenials and GenZ who think they're not playing in the banker's sandbox but still are.

----------


## Proph

> So the answer is that no, you don't have possession of any bitcoins in your remote wallet.  You don't seem to want to answer the most basic of yes/no questions like that.  
> 
> You have in your remote wallet what is essentially an encrypted login credential that gives you access to "your" bitcoins.  The bitcoins remain in the ether, not your possession, just like digital stocks.  You have an encrypted login credential that verifies that you have legal holder status but that's it.


Who owns anything, really?  (Doesn't everything all ultimately belong to God anyway?)

The greatest thing about Bitcoin is that it gets people looking at fiat and presents a living example in economics.




> You're making the concept much more complicated and difficult to understand than it needs to be.  Bankers love that kind of thing.  Making simple concepts sound too complicated to understand.  *Bitcoin and altcoins is a stock market for millenials and GenZ who think they're not playing in the banker's sandbox but still are.*


Sometimes even simple things are complicated.  (Everyone eats, yet who can describe their own metabolization process from start to finish; let alone all the circumstances that bring that food to your lips in the first place!)

You're right, though:  Cryptocurrency is currently being treated as a stock or commodity, rather than it's intentional use as a currency.  (This will eventually change as more businesses start accepting it.)

----------


## Mordan

new ATH 

20.6k

probably on its way to 100k with institutional FOMO.

we will see.

----------


## dannno

> So the answer is that no, you don't have possession of any bitcoins in your remote wallet.  You don't seem to want to answer the most basic of yes/no questions like that.  
> 
> You have in your remote wallet what is essentially an encrypted login credential that gives you access to "your" bitcoins.  The bitcoins remain in the ether, not your possession, just like digital stocks.  You have an encrypted login credential that verifies that you have legal holder status but that's it.  
> 
> You're making the concept much more complicated and difficult to understand than it needs to be.  Bankers love that kind of thing.  Making simple concepts sound too complicated to understand.  Bitcoin and altcoins is a stock market for millenials and GenZ who think they're not playing in the banker's sandbox but still are.


There are pro's and cons to this system, although you seem to be highly exaggerating the "con" if it really is one. 

If somebody steals my offline bitcoin wallet, or if I accidentally drop it into the ocean, nobody can steal my bitcoins and I still have access them and can spend them.

There is also no centralized control of the network. Bankers are not a fan.

----------


## devil21

> There are pro's and cons to this system, although you seem to be highly exaggerating the "con" if it really is one.


The con is that it's yet another imaginary money mindscrew from the same old suspects that have perfected the imaginary money mindscrew over many years.  You think it's coincidence that Heir Schwab of the WEF says that by 2030 we "will own nothing", right after yet another "nothing" money substitute was unveiled to the masses and then the CBDC injected into the narrative soon after that?  Come on, man.  I know you're not that dense.




> If somebody steals my offline bitcoin wallet, or if I accidentally drop it into the ocean, nobody can steal my bitcoins and I still have access them and can spend them.


Uh really?  If you don't have the authentication keys that were stored on the wallet you can't have access, right?  You can't have it both ways, saying that it's secure but then say that losing the keys still allows you access.  I recall the story about the hard drive with a key to 7500 bitcoins that was thrown away.  Does that person still have access to those bitcoins? 




> There is also no centralized control of the network. Bankers are not a fan.


Yeah, because bankers can't just create dollars and buy it all up to control it   Besides, everyone knows there are a handful of unknown "whales" that move the bitcoin price in collusion.  How exactly do you know that these few whales are not the bankers themselves?

----------


## Mordan

> The con is that it's yet another imaginary money mindscrew from the same old suspects that have perfected the imaginary money mindscrew over many years.  You think it's coincidence that Heir Schwab of the WEF says that by 2030 we "will own nothing", right after yet another "nothing" money substitute was unveiled to the masses and then the CBDC injected into the narrative soon after that?  Come on, man.  I know you're not that dense.
> 
> 
> 
> Uh really?  If you don't have the authentication keys that were stored on the wallet you can't have access, right?  You can't have it both ways, saying that it's secure but then say that losing the keys still allows you access.  I recall the story about the hard drive with a key to 7500 bitcoins that was thrown away.  Does that person still have access to those bitcoins? 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, because bankers can't just create dollars and buy it all up to control it   Besides, everyone knows there are a handful of unknown "whales" that move the bitcoin price in collusion.  How exactly do you know that these few whales are not the bankers themselves?


you are such a normy.

its because of you normies that the smart money gets richer and the poor stay poor.

you are hopeless. We already explained. You are an intellectual fraud.

----------


## Mordan

21k

----------


## dannno

> I recall the story about the hard drive with a key to 7500 bitcoins that was thrown away.  Does that person still have access to those bitcoins?


The private key doesn't need to be stored on a hard drive or digital device and the private key should only be stored cryptographically on any digital devices.

----------


## dannno

$22k

----------


## devil21

> you are such a normy.
> 
> its because of you normies that the smart money gets richer and the poor stay poor.
> 
> you are hopeless. We already explained. You are an intellectual fraud.


You didn't answer any of the questions, as usual.  Just deflection and personal attacks.  It's the newest ponzi scheme from the same old ponzi schemers as always. 

Yes, we did already establish that you love the bitcoin ponzi scheme returns since Dollar conversion rates buy you a really nice lifestyle in your poor Baltic home country.





> The private key doesn't need to be stored on a hard drive or digital device and the private key should only be stored cryptographically on any digital devices.


Is there some reason you can't actually answer any of my questions directly?  Your reply doesn't even make sense as a reply to my question.

Btw, seems to me that the recent rise in bitcoin price actually is the usual suspects buying it up so they can control it.  Great for you if you can get out with a big profit but when Paypal and the like are piling in, that's when you know it actually _is_ being controlled by the bankers.  So much for all the hype about it being a decentralized system outside of the mainstream banking control structure.  Now you same folks applaud that the same control structure is getting directly involved in it because it may mean more dollars to you

----------


## The Northbreather

> You didn't answer any of the questions, as usual.  Just deflection and personal attacks.  It's the newest ponzi scheme from the same old ponzi schemers as always. 
> 
> Yes, we did already establish that you love the bitcoin ponzi scheme returns since Dollar conversion rates buy you a really nice lifestyle in your poor Baltic home country.


What would be your ideal money?

----------


## devil21

> What would be your ideal money?


Anything backed by something real, tangible and valuable.  We haven't had that since the usual british banker suspects got their hooks into the country via the Federal Reserve Act in 1913.  Everything else is ponzi fraud crap and more of the same, but with even tighter controls by a handful of people and further separation from what is real.  Tired of the mindscrew financial games...

----------


## Working Poor

@ 23k right now.

----------


## devil21

> @ 23k right now.


That's because the people that print the currency and control most of the currency are now buying it up, like I said in an above post.  They'll eventually completely control all of it again, just like everything else.  Meet new boss, same as old boss.  They're passing off their current fiat digital currency onto bagholders before it is majorly devalued.  Since they're also the same people that work in concert with the central banks, if/when they're directed to crash bitcoin in favor of the FedCoin, they'll do it.  Guess what happens then?  Dollars are worthless, bitcoin worthless, all that's left is imaginary FedCoin...."you'll own nothing".

----------


## Proph

CBDC -- Centralized Banking Digital Currencies? -- seem similar to E-Coin.  (Mr. Robot is an excellent series, which I recommend everyone should watch!)

Something "real and tangible" can still be seized, arguably easier than digital cryptocurrencies!  (Quantum computing trivializing encryption is the biggest threat.)

Cryptocurrencies' value come from scarcity and security.  (Though, not all of them are deflationary or limited in supply.)

----------


## The Northbreather

> Anything backed by something real, tangible and valuable.  We haven't had that since the usual british banker suspects got their hooks into the country via the Federal Reserve Act in 1913.  Everything else is ponzi fraud crap and more of the same, but with even tighter controls by a handful of people and further separation from what is real.  Tired of the mindscrew financial games...


Does being backed by the choice of the people qualify?

What if the people chose a money that became more valuable as the banks debased their slave money? 

Despite its issues, it’s hard to believe that someone on these forums would have a problem with individuals and businesses Voluntarily choosing a money that protects their purchasing power from the central banks.

Dr. Paul himself has repeated many times that money is whatever the people choose it to be and select by using it, it doesn’t just have to be one thing either, there could be many competing monies and that would be a benefit.

----------


## devil21

> CBDC -- Centralized Banking Digital Currencies? -- seem similar to E-Coin.  (Mr. Robot is an excellent series, which I recommend everyone should watch!)
> 
> Something "real and tangible" can still be seized, arguably easier than digital cryptocurrencies!  (Quantum computing trivializing encryption is the biggest threat.)


Sure, real and tangible can still be seized but that requires actually sending people to do it, at risk of harm or violation of natural law.  Direct liabilities.  

POOF goes the crypto, however.  No risk, no recourse.




> Cryptocurrencies' value come from scarcity and security.  (Though, not all of them are deflationary or limited in supply.)


If by scarce, you mean it literally doesn't exist except in your mind, then yes, very scarce.  As scarce as something can possibly be, in fact!





> Does being backed by the choice of the people qualify?


Show me where an informed choice is offered instead of the usual crisis-reaction-solution insertion technique.




> What if the people chose a money that became more valuable as the banks debased their slave money? 
> 
> Despite its issues, it’s hard to believe that someone on these forums would have a problem with individuals and businesses Voluntarily choosing a money that protects their purchasing power from the central banks.


No one is arguing that you shouldn't have a choice in whether you switch Fake Money Substitute A for Fake Money Substitute B.  Do whatever you want.  But don't try to gaslight me into thinking it's some kind of improvement and isn't another creation of the old boss trying to maintain control as the new boss.  




> Dr. Paul himself has repeated many times that money is whatever the people choose it to be and select by using it, it doesn’t just have to be one thing either, there could be many competing monies and that would be a benefit.


If there were real choices being offered, I'd agree completely.  It's hard to claim that real choices are offered when other choices are systematically suppressed, however.

----------


## Proph

> Sure, real and tangible can still be seized but that requires actually sending people to do it, at risk of harm or violation of natural law.  Direct liabilities.


True; but if it's governments doing the seizing, your odds of survival plummet.  (Are you ready to kill someone over stuff, just like them?  Evidently so!)




> POOF goes the crypto, however.  No risk, no recourse.


Cryptocurrency won't disappear unless an internet kill-switch is flipped, but even then, those funds still remain until accessed and transferred.  (EMP's are a threat, too.)





> If by scarce, you mean it literally doesn't exist except in your mind, then yes, very scarce.  As scarce as something can possibly be, in fact!


You're just being disingenuous here:  Ideas are quite plentiful [and digital representations can be represented graphically on devices]!  (The idea behind blockchains is to make sure that all of the servers -- where ledgers are stored -- are on the same page; anyone who tries to throw their own fantastical ledgers onto the chain are rejected, save a new currency or 51% attack.)




> Show me where an informed choice is offered instead of the usual crisis-reaction-solution insertion technique.


Well, the information is in the opensource code.  (David Icke fan!)





> No one is arguing that you shouldn't have a choice in whether you switch Fake Money Substitute A for Fake Money Substitute B.  Do whatever you want.  But don't try to gaslight me into thinking it's some kind of improvement and isn't another creation of the old boss trying to maintain control as the new boss.
> 
> If there were real choices being offered, I'd agree completely.  It's hard to claim that real choices are offered when other choices are systematically suppressed, however.


Crypto is more sound than the dollar.  (Will it suddenly become a "real choice" if -- when? -- governments begin banning it?)

----------


## The Northbreather

Either way, crypto is forcing people to examine the right ideas:

Why are we using money that steals from the user?

What is money?

Is money creation by governments/central banks counterfeiting?

Are governments so corrupt they would ban competing monies and why would they do so?

Do I own my income?

Do I own myself?




It’s forcing an emperor wears no cloths scenario imho.

----------


## Working Poor

> "you'll own nothing"


Yea but will I be happy too?

----------


## Mordan

listen to Saylor and how he convinced his company, board, auditors etc to invest his cash reserves in Bitcoin

----------


## kpitcher

> that's when you know it actually _is_ being controlled by the bankers.  So much for all the hype about it being a decentralized system outside of the mainstream banking control structure.  Now you same folks applaud that the same control structure is getting directly involved in it because it may mean more dollars to you


Bitcoin is indeed more in control by the private banks, hedge funds, large money than ever before. Sure early adopters have enjoyed the ride, and I believe the ride will continue, but the big money folks are the ones really going to profit.

----------


## Mordan

26.6k

new ATH

----------


## The Northbreather

> Bitcoin is indeed more in control by the private banks, hedge funds, large money than ever before. Sure early adopters have enjoyed the ride, and I believe the ride will continue, but the big money folks are the ones really going to profit.


If the big money folks suddenly adopt gold along with early adopters I wouldn’t have a problem so why is it a problem with crypto?

As long as is can’t be counterfeited by banks and governments I call that a win..

----------


## dannno

$27,432

----------


## Mordan

27.7k

new ATH

----------


## Mordan

> “Bitcoin is a swarm of cyber hornets serving the goddess of wisdom, feeding on the fire of truth, exponentially growing ever smarter, faster, and stronger behind a wall of encrypted energy,” 
> 
> Michael Saylor, CEO of  MicroStrategy, MSTR (NASDAQ).


Its already happening and Saylor destroyed gold on all his interviews.

He says Bitcoin is 10 times better.

----------


## Mordan

28k

----------


## The Northbreather

> Its already happening and Saylor destroyed gold on all his interviews.
> 
> He says Bitcoin is 10 times better.


 That’s a bold opinion. I don’t know that it is 10 times better than gold. 

They both have strengths and weaknesses, one of golds universally recognized strengths is its high physical durability.

I agree that crypto and more specifically bitcoin has 10 times the room to climb because of the success the banks and states have had in brainwashing people on economics and stigmatizing gold.

I think it’s and amazing opportunity to get people to contemplate what money is and how it important honest money is in a just society...

I believe they can work together synergistically (bitcoin and pms).

----------


## Mordan

> Thats a bold opinion. I dont know that it is 10 times better than gold. 
> 
> .


Start from this short 4 minutes CNBC clip. YT will give you links to his more in depth videos.

----------


## jkr

its too hard and im too dumb

cant even log in to kraken...i dont think they EVER approved my id...

how do i buy what wallet do i use ( or should i)?

----------


## Mordan

> its too hard and im too dumb
> 
> cant even log in to kraken...i dont think they EVER approved my id...
> 
> how do i buy what wallet do i use ( or should i)?


if you are dumb,

use Kraken or Bitstamp. Get an account verified.

Wire money.

Buy. If below 4k USD. you can leave it on exchange like Kraken.

Risk is minimal and you are dumb so you might make mistakes.

Take the time to become less dumb by learning how to use a Nano Ledger or a Trezor.. Both hardware wallet for noobs.

----------


## Mordan

32k.

mark my words on this thread.

This is going to 100k

Easy x3 money.

----------


## Mordan

33k

watch all market events live on

https://www.aggr.trade

----------


## The Northbreather

> 33k
> 
> watch all market events live on
> 
> https://www.aggr.trade


Cool ticker. Is that yours?

----------


## dannno

$34.4k

----------


## Mordan

> $34.4k


its kinda sad that on this site which taught me sound money in 2008, we are like only 3 or 4 people enjoying the ride.

----------


## The Northbreather

> its kinda sad that on this site which taught me sound money in 2008, we are like only 3 or 4 people enjoying the ride.


Lurkers abound

----------


## dannno

$37.7k

----------


## devil21

> its kinda sad that on this site which taught me sound money in 2008, we are like only 3 or 4 people enjoying the ride.


Sound money means constitutional hard money, not NSA/MIT vaporware.

----------


## kpitcher

I'm waiting for a dump, not sure it will happen this time around. So much FOMO with institutional money behind it makes this a different story.

----------


## Mordan

38k

some people are getting rich.. its going to 400k i.e the gold MC in the 4 next years.

----------


## devil21

> 38k
> 
> some people are getting rich.. its going to 400k i.e the gold MC in the 4 next years.


Doesn't matter what the dollar value is since no exchange will actually cash you out at these valuations, much less at $400k.  It's an illusion of wealth that's never actually realized into wealth, just numbers on a screen.  That's why everyone is encouraged to "hodl" while valuations, created by tether games and whale wash trading, climb.  Like any good ponzi, people can't cash out lest the ponzi collapses since there's not enough actual dollar liquidity to fulfill the cash out demands.  Same $#@! the usual money changers have pulled on the sheep forever.  The Social Capital indian guy just admitted on CNBC that bitcoin will go really, really high but will eventually lead into the adoption of CBDC. 

I'm happy for you that your screen numbers mean so much to you but you and the other bitcoin pumpers should find your way off of a forum devoted to constitutional principles like sound money, since all you're doing, because of your own sheer greed, is forwarding the banker's agenda away from hard money ownership and constitutional principles.  You're helping along the "you will own nothing" globalist agenda that seeks to destroy constitutional principles.  Especially since you're doing it at the same time that those same bankers purposely and systematically suppress constitutional hard money.





> I'm waiting for a dump, not sure it will happen this time around. So much FOMO with institutional money behind it makes this a different story.


Institutional money isn't really chasing bitcoin.  I hope you don't seriously think that's happening.  What is happening is the "institutional money" mouthpieces are jawboning people into buying into the CBDC blockchain paradigm, which those mouthpieces will be in control of.  Herding the sheeps.

----------


## axiomata

An exchange is not an exchange if it won't cash you out at the current value.

----------


## kpitcher

> Institutional money isn't really chasing bitcoin.  I hope you don't seriously think that's happening.  What is happening is the "institutional money" mouthpieces are jawboning people into buying into the CBDC blockchain paradigm, which those mouthpieces will be in control of.  Herding the sheeps.


 Funds are buying Bitcoin as part of their portfolio.  0.5% of all bitcoin is held by public companies. They're not taking large position yet that they are taking any at all is a huge shift.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/why-i...-about-bitcoin



About 15% of fund managers, with $534 billion under management, surveyed by Bank of America Corp. said Bitcoin is the third-most crowded trade behind being long technology shares and shorting the U.S. dollar. The poll was taken between Dec. 4 and Dec. 10.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...utions-jump-in

----------


## devil21

> Funds are buying Bitcoin as part of their portfolio.  0.5% of all bitcoin is held by public companies. They're not taking large position yet that they are taking any at all is a huge shift.
> 
> https://cointelegraph.com/news/why-i...-about-bitcoin


.5% is nothing.  Well, .5% more than nothing but close enough.  .5% does not translate to what is occurring in the dollar price right now.




> About 15% of fund managers, with $534 billion under management, surveyed by Bank of America Corp. said Bitcoin is the third-most crowded trade behind being long technology shares and shorting the U.S. dollar. The poll was taken between Dec. 4 and Dec. 10.
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...utions-jump-in


I can't read it because it's paywalled.  Can you post full text?  Much of what passes for mainstream financial "news" is for jawboning people into being bagholders for the inevitable dump after the pump, especially since futures are available.  Are you sure they aren't referring to bitcoin futures or Grayscale Bitcoin Trust shares instead of actually using investor money to buy into bitcoin?  I really can't see any institutional money manager risking investor money on a trade that literally could drop 50-75% overnight for no apparent reason, without any counter-party transparency and without recourse in the case of fraud.

----------


## Mordan

40k

----------


## Mordan

This interview is pure gold!

Jesus Christ, listen to the words coming from that mouth.

Please devil21, watch it! I beg you on my knees. And tell me your wisdom

----------


## devil21

According to usdebtclock.org, bitcoin and gold are currently around the same valuation ($39k btc, $34k gold), if not for the banker's 100 paper-1 physical suppression of gold.  I've always thought that bitcoin's valuation represented physical gold's actual dollar value, hence why "a bitcoin" is always represented as being a gold coin.

The fact that bankers are promoting btc and not using futures markets to suppress it, instead of suppressing it like they do physical metals, continues to tell me that bankers want the people to sell off their real wealth, while the bankers continue to hoard physical metals, and put your faith in digital, fully tracked nothingness.

Or do you    @dannno    @Mordan think that the Microsoft patent 060606 tying cryptocurrency to physical labor is because the bankers want us to have real wealth?



Satoshi Nakemoto is coded into that cover.  It's an anagram hidden in "TAKESHITA COMES TO TOWN" and pg.17-20 means 2017-2020, the period of introduction of cryptos to the masses.  The fleur-de-lis represents the Dec 21 2020 conjunction of Saturn and Jupiter on the Solstice.

-------------




> This interview is pure gold!
> 
> Jesus Christ, listen to the words coming from that mouth.
> 
> Please devil21, watch it! I beg you on my knees. And tell me your wisdom


It's totally a shocker that the Bitcoin OG is from MIT and has a history of committing securities fraud   He sounds perfect for the role of Bitcoin OG.  I like things that exist in the real world.  I've had enough of the imaginary digital nothingness money mind-control games, sorry.

----------


## dannno

*Mass Hong Kong Arrests Of Legistators And Activists Shows Why Bitcoin Is Essential*https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerhu...h=25e828312a34

----------


## Proph

> Sound money means *constitutional* hard money, not NSA/MIT vaporware.





> But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case it is unfit to exist.


Still better than fiat!

Used the right way, cryptocurrencies level the playing field against bankers.

----------


## The Northbreather

> According to usdebtclock.org, bitcoin and gold are currently around the same valuation ($39k btc, $34k gold), if not for the banker's 100 paper-1 physical suppression of gold.  I've always thought that bitcoin's valuation represented physical gold's actual dollar value, hence why "a bitcoin" is always represented as being a gold coin.
> 
> The fact that bankers are promoting btc and not using futures markets to suppress it, instead of suppressing it like they do physical metals, continues to tell me that bankers want the people to sell off their real wealth, while the bankers continue to hoard physical metals, and put your faith in digital, fully tracked nothingness.


 If this is your view then why not ride bitcoin up then periodically take what you perceive as profit in gold and make half it of your position or whatever you choose. 

*Every single large online bullion dealer takes bitcoin and even gives a discount compared to fiat (as well as my local coin shop).*

----------


## Proph

> *This is your view then why not ride bitcoin up then periodically take what you perceive as profit in gold and make half of your position or whatever you choose.*
> 
> Every single large online bullion dealer takes bitcoin and even gives a discount compared to fiat (as well as my local coin shop).


Probably because you need a bank account when you go through exchanges.  All of those exchanges store enormous amounts of personal data -- to deter fraud and other maliciousness, supposedly -- and governments would have access to all of that [as if they don't already?] when they declare cryptocurrencies illegal.  ("Only Congress can coin money!")

What happens then?  (How many die from stupid government, this time?)

----------


## The Northbreather

> Probably because you need a bank account when you go through exchanges.  All of those exchanges store enormous amounts of personal data -- to deter fraud and other maliciousness, supposedly -- and governments would have access to all of that [as if they don't already?] when they declare cryptocurrencies illegal.  ("Only Congress can coin money!")
> 
> What happens then?  (How many die from stupid government, this time?)



Here’s the reddit for trading precious metals for crypto.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pmsforsale/

This is an article on buying without verification 
https://99bitcoins.com/buy-bitcoin/a...ly-without-id/

This search took about 1 minute...

----------


## Proph

> Heres the reddit for trading precious metals for crypto.
> https://www.reddit.com/r/Pmsforsale/
> 
> This is an article on buying without verification 
> https://99bitcoins.com/buy-bitcoin/a...ly-without-id/
> 
> This search took about 1 minute...


lol...My point is that crypto isn't as anonymous as you think.

That can be a good thing, though, if governments would accept it as a plausible payment method.  (Fraud and theft would be easier to track than cash, for example.)

----------


## devil21

> If this is your view then why not ride bitcoin up then periodically take what you perceive as profit in gold and make half it of your position or whatever you choose. 
> 
> *Every single large online bullion dealer takes bitcoin and even gives a discount compared to fiat (as well as my local coin shop).*


I do my best to not support ponzi schemes any more than I need to.  Plus, playing in the bitcoin sandbox requires turning over every piece of personal info, maybe short of my blood type, to some practically untraceable exchange with a PO box address or empty store front address and no customer service.  It's obvious that they gather such info so it can promptly be turned over to the IRS.  I'd rather earn fiat as a man exercising some level of sovereignty and exchange it for an asset I can make use of, instead of hoping that the next time I want to access "my" assets, the exchange isn't experiencing "technical difficulties" or experienced a "hack".  Isn't it remarkable how coinbase suddenly has technical difficulties when bitcoin experiences a 15-20% pull back in a matter of minutes?  Finally, anything managed by an exchange or held in the "ether" isn't my asset any way.  It's the same old legal mindscrew of "equitable interest", but not ownership of the fruits of my labor.  Sorry, I just don't like it, I know way too much about its purpose as the introduction to digital "company scrip slave wage" and I don't care much for fiat currencies in the first place so pricing it in a hyperinflating fiat doesn't tickle my loins much.

Besides, even if I ignored all of that, the price is way too stupidly high to get involved with now.  I'd wait for the inevitable periodic 50+% crash that comes after these mania run-ups, which has repeated through bitcoin's entire existence.

----------


## The Northbreather

//

----------


## The Northbreather

> I do my best to not support ponzi schemes any more than I need to.  Plus, playing in the bitcoin sandbox requires turning over every piece of personal info, maybe short of my blood type, to some practically untraceable exchange with a PO box address or empty store front address and no customer service.  It's obvious that they gather such info so it can promptly be turned over to the IRS.  I'd rather earn fiat as a man exercising some level of sovereignty and exchange it for an asset I can make use of, instead of hoping that the next time I want to access "my" assets, the exchange isn't experiencing "technical difficulties" or experienced a "hack".  Isn't it remarkable how coinbase suddenly has technical difficulties when bitcoin experiences a 15-20% pull back in a matter of minutes?  Finally, anything managed by an exchange or held in the "ether" isn't my asset any way.  It's the same old legal mindscrew of "equitable interest", but not ownership of the fruits of my labor.  Sorry, I just don't like it, I know way too much about its purpose as the introduction to digital "company scrip slave wage" and I don't care much for fiat currencies in the first place so pricing it in a hyperinflating fiat doesn't tickle my loins much.
> 
> Besides, even if I ignored all of that, the price is way too stupidly high to get involved with now.  I'd wait for the inevitable periodic 50+% crash that comes after these mania run-ups, which has repeated through bitcoin's entire existence.


The “scheme” is us being forced to transact in fiat that robs one of power and value. If you can’t understand that then I doubt you’ll understand bitcoin’s appeal.

Seems you’ve closed off your mind anyway if post #1045 and 1047 didn’t help you.

This is a waste of time.

----------


## PAF

> The “scheme” is us being forced to transact in fiat that robs one of power and value. If you can’t understand that then I doubt you’ll understand bitcoin’s appeal.
> 
> Seems you’ve closed off your mind anyway if post #1045 and 1047 didn’t help you.
> 
> This is a waste of time.


 @devil21 has legitimate reasons/concerns that I absolutely agree with.


A few points to make:

1. Bitcoin is in fact part of the "Great Reset".

2. It is extremely volatile, where one can profit enormously, and/or fail miserably.

3. To a degree, "you can't stop the change"; it may be inevitable that "digital" money (nothing but a software program), is the way of the future.

4. This, combined with AI, will permanently bind individuals to the world-wide apparatus grid, where Individualism will no longer exist.


The take away: Never put all of your eggs into one basket. Always diversify; brokerage accounts, IRA, Real Estate, Precious Metals, and Bitcoin if you can accept the risk. Get out of debt=slavery and determine what is best for you and your individual lifestyle.

----------


## devil21

.....and bitcoin has lost over $10,000 of fiat value in 2 days.  It's a speculative play, that's it.




> The “scheme” is us being forced to transact in fiat that robs one of power and value. If you can’t understand that then I doubt you’ll understand bitcoin’s appeal.
> 
> Seems you’ve closed off your mind anyway if post #1045 and 1047 didn’t help you.
> 
> This is a waste of time.


Cryptos/bitcoin, and soon to be CBDC, is the nothing more than the next iteration of fiat plantation money, developed and rolled out by the usual suspects.  This time it's even less private, even less real and even less constitutional.  If you can't understand that then I doubt you'll understand why I don't like it.  Having said that, I expect the CBDC will be declared gold backed, so I'd rather hold the asset that backs the new money substitute instead of some "competitor" crypto.

----------


## The Northbreather

> @devil21 has legitimate reasons/concerns that I absolutely agree with.
> 
> 
> A few points to make:
> 
> 1. Bitcoin is in fact part of the "Great Reset".
> 
> 2. It is extremely volatile, where one can profit enormously, and/or fail miserably.
> 
> ...


Bitcoin could be a part of the great reset or maybe not. All the research I’ve done it in indicates that it was the culmination of decades of trying to create a counterfeit proof digital money.

 Of course diversification is the key everything in investing or saving. That said I can’t imagine any government pursuing a currency  that politicians can’t counterfeit in concert with the men in charge. 

 That said, it makes perfect logical sense that small businesses,large businesses banks and individuals would seek out a store of value that rises as governments inflate. I’m just is suspicious as you guys are of anything new but it seems obvious that this is the reason first and foremost for bitcoins popularly, rather than a scheme. The  ease in trading it in gold adds to this case.

----------


## The Northbreather

> .....and bitcoin has lost over $10,000 of fiat value in 2 days.  It's a speculative play, that's it.
> 
> 
> 
> Cryptos/bitcoin, and soon to be CBDC, is the nothing more than the next iteration of fiat plantation money, developed and rolled out by the usual suspects.  This time it's even less private, even less real and even less constitutional.  If you can't understand that then I doubt you'll understand why I don't like it.  Having said that, I expect the CBDC will be declared gold backed, so I'd rather hold the asset that backs the new money substitute instead of some "competitor" crypto.



Why would a state suddenly back a currency in gold? they could have done that for decades and have not.

Plantation money is created at will by the plantation owners.

The reason Bitcoin rises in price against other assets is because nobody does far has been able to counterfeit it. The moment that that happens the network loses all value.

 I agree that it’s transparency is a drawback, but it seems necessary currently. I’ve seen talk about updating the protocol to be more anonymous , It would be great if this happened right about now as many main stream institutions are holding a lot of it and that makes it more legitimate in the eyes of some. 

 It would be amazing if they had planned to keep bitcoin transparent so that it would be better excepted at first and then somehow they made it more anonymous for the individual after it was excepted in main stream.

----------


## devil21

I'd get along with you coiners a lot better if you'd just admit that bitcoin is a banker invention, all the claims of "anonymity" and a "threat to the bankers" made over the years in this thread was complete bs, and that you don't really care about any of that.  You only care about trying to profit in fiat from the bitcoin ponzi, since the dollar to whatever your crappy national fiat currency exchange rate is gives you an elevated standard of living in your country.  I respect honesty, at least.  Bull$#@! doesn't go very far with me and certainly doesn't help your case for "investing" in the ponzi.

"excepted"....jeez at least get a grammarly plug-in so your ESL isn't so obvious. 




> Why would a state suddenly back a currency in gold? they could have done that for decades and have not.


Yeah that's crazy talk, never mind.  Carry on.

----------


## dannno

> .....and bitcoin has lost over $10,000 of fiat value in 2 days.  It's a speculative play, that's it.


Except it's more than half way back up to the all time high already..

----------


## Proph

> I'd get along with you coiners a lot better if you'd just admit that bitcoin is a banker invention, *all the claims of* "anonymity" and *a "threat to the bankers" made over the years in this thread was complete bs,* and that you don't really care about any of that.  You only care about trying to profit in fiat from the bitcoin ponzi, since the dollar to whatever your crappy national fiat currency exchange rate is gives you an elevated standard of living in your country.  I respect honesty, at least.  Bull$#@! doesn't go very far with me and certainly doesn't help your case for "investing" in the ponzi.
> 
> "excepted"....jeez at least get a grammarly plug-in so your ESL isn't so obvious. 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah that's crazy talk, never mind.  Carry on.





> Still better than fiat!
> 
> Used the right way, cryptocurrencies level the playing field against bankers.


How do programs that can potentially replace banks -- and credit card systems -- benefit bankers, devil21?

Really, deflationary currencies are a threat to a whole way of life.

Crypto-doom-and-gloomers would get more respect from me if they actually learned a little bit about the currency and posed more legitimate concerns.  (My biggest concern:  They use these logs to "blackbag" individuals charged with money laundering; which, I think they made possible in a recent bill.  This has nothing to do with flaws in the currency, though, and everything to do with the flaws in government.)

----------


## devil21

Just reread this thread from page 1.  I've posted plenty of info for years that indicates that cryptos are a banker invention meant to further tighten control.  The Rothschilds magazine announced it literally 33 years ago yet *crickets*

----------


## kpitcher

Forbes has a crypto webinar next Tue. Usually someplace like forbes isn't the best place to get the most current news but may be worth it.

https://forbes.zoom.us/webinar/regis...ica%2FNew_York

----------


## Working Poor

Are bit coins tradeable? If they are then I I guess it does not matter ultimately who invented it. I find it interesting if you have some you want to get rid of PM me and I will send you my wallet address.

----------


## louisehhawk98

have anyone experience in bitcoin local payments?

----------


## The Northbreather

> Are bit coins tradeable? If they are then I I guess it does not matter ultimately who invented it. I find it interesting if you have some you want to get rid of PM me and I will send you my wallet address.


You can trade them for gold if you want..
https://www.apmex.com/product/218622...-gold-eagle-bu

----------


## kpitcher

> have anyone experience in bitcoin local payments?


You mean buying bitcoin from a local person? Watch out, the feds have arrested some people for doing that as it can be considered an illegal money transmitting service. It has been a few years since I've seen such a report but it's worth being careful about.

----------


## devil21

> You mean buying bitcoin from a local person? Watch out, the feds have arrested some people for doing that as it can be considered an illegal money transmitting service. It has been a few years since I've seen such a report but it's worth being careful about.


Just my .02 but the account you replied to looks very suspect.

----------


## Proph

> OMG, NSA speculated about the advent of electronic cash!!!!!!!! as did 1000's of others before it actually came into existence. I'm selling all my bitcoins it's obviously a program by the government to diminish its own power.
> 
> I just read several sections of that paper, it all revolves around a central "Bank" controlling deposits and withdraws. So, not even similar at all to bitcoin. Proof of work is probably the most important thing about bitcoin, as it allows the mining process, which gets rid of the need for a central authority to approve transactions, and prevent nefarious situations like double spending (if wait for the transaction to be several blocks deep before counting it as "actually" received).





> Every project starts somewhere.  That was what the NSA initially started with and it has evolved into what it is today.  *Or we could put this whole argument to bed if you can show me a picture of Mr. Satoshi.  I'll wait....*


lol...Why would someone want to put their face on something like that, and open themselves up to legal perse-prosecution?  (I guess I'll be waiting just as long before you answer any of my questions...)




> *cointel*
> 
> Coincidence?


Extreme confirmation bias might be where most mental disorders come from.  (Your comment was in regard to a coin-telegraph link.)




> *How do programs that can potentially replace banks -- and credit card systems -- benefit bankers, devil21?*
> 
> Really, deflationary currencies are a threat to a whole way of life.
> 
> Crypto-doom-and-gloomers would get more respect from me if they actually learned a little bit about the currency and posed more legitimate concerns.  (My biggest concern:  They use these logs to "blackbag" individuals charged with money laundering; which, I think they made possible in a recent bill.  This has nothing to do with flaws in the currency, though, and everything to do with the flaws in government.)





> Just reread this thread from page 1.  I've posted plenty of info for years that indicates that cryptos are a banker invention meant to further tighten control.  The Rothschilds magazine announced it literally 33 years ago yet *crickets*


Thanks for suggesting I re-read the thread, though!  (Initially, when I first read your post, I thought you meant YOU reread it!)

I didn't make it through the whole thing yet, but you were combative and dismissive from the beginning, weren't you?  (You were the one who wrote the presumable answers already, so it should be easy for you to remember and direct me to the corresponding, relative posts.  You're here to waste your time and mine, though, apparently!  [Those answers don't exist; or, your reasoning isn't as solid as you believe it is.])

----------


## devil21

^^^^^^^  blah blah blah.  Combative and dismissive because _I know how the bankers herd the sheep into their next planned fake money system_ and have called it in this thread even before Fedcoin/CBDC was made public.  Fedcoin is just around the corner and the puzzle pieces are being put into place to regulate the hell out of bitcoin, possibly to the point of being nearly worthless.  You think Janet Yellen and Gary Gensler are going to be on your side?  LOL 

All that is great and thanks for your thoughts but no one has refuted, with any evidence whatsoever, my claim from the start that bitcoin is an NSA/MIT invention or address the 1988 Economist cover that not only told us it was going to happen but even was so bold as to code the $#@!in' name they'd push and the even the calendar years they'd push it right into the cover.

The difference between you and me is that I give credit where it is due but you will not.  I have said repeatedly that I hope people do well playing with bitcoin and I'm sure some have.  Good for them.  But know what it is and that the greed comes at a price for everyone else, as you help herd everyone into their next fake money paradigm.  You will not, however, give me credit for pegging the bigger agenda from day 1.

----------


## Proph

> ^^^^^^^  blah blah blah.  Combative and dismissive because _I know how the bankers herd the sheep into their next planned fake money system_ and have called it in this thread even before Fedcoin/CBDC was made public.  Fedcoin is just around the corner and the puzzle pieces are being put into place to regulate the hell out of bitcoin, possibly to the point of being nearly worthless.  You think Janet Yellen and Gary Gensler are going to be on your side?  LOL 
> 
> All that is great and thanks for your thoughts but no one has refuted, with any evidence whatsoever, my claim from the start that bitcoin is an NSA/MIT invention or address the 1988 Economist cover that not only told us it was going to happen but even was so bold as to code the $#@!in' name they'd push and the even the calendar years they'd push it right into the cover.
> 
> The difference between you and me is that I give credit where it is due but you will not.  I have said repeatedly that I hope people do well playing with bitcoin and I'm sure some have.  Good for them.  But know what it is and that the greed comes at a price for everyone else, as you help herd everyone into their next fake money paradigm.  You will not, however, give me credit for pegging the bigger agenda from day 1.


Ultimately, their decrees mean nothing without violence.

Bitcoin can either free you from bankers, or help them enslave you.  (Really, that's up to you!)

Check out Mr. Robot.  (E-Coin -- "FedCoin" -- versus Bitcoin!)


* *




Perhaps I'll address your collectivist language and thinking patterns later.

----------


## devil21

Mr. Robot?  Yes, let's look to Hollywood for guidance.  They surely do not push agendas and predictive programming via television shows.  

smh

If you're not a shill, proph, you are very, very uninformed about how the sheep are herded.

----------


## Proph

> Mr. Robot?  Yes, let's look to Hollywood for guidance.  They surely do not push agendas and predictive programming via television shows.  
> 
> smh
> 
> If you're not a shill, proph, you are very, very uninformed about how the sheep are herded.


"Everyone who disagrees with me is a shill!"

It's easier to dismiss others and ignore them than have an actual, honest conversation.  (You won't even entertain the thought that you might possibly be wrong!)

----------


## Mordan

back to 40k

----------


## Mordan



----------


## Mordan

43k

TESLA HAS BOUGHT $1.5BN IN BITCOIN - SEC FILING

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/d...k_20201231.htm

----------


## Mordan

55k

----------


## RonPaulIsGreat

Bitcoin will never work.... I saw a pic of something on a magazine 33 years ago... and like rothchilds and stuff.... oh yeah and bankers made it to destroy the banks. Duh....

----------


## devil21

> "Everyone who disagrees with me is a shill!"
> 
> It's easier to dismiss others and ignore them than have an actual, honest conversation.  (You won't even entertain the thought that you might possibly be wrong!)


A conversation about what?  Seems to me the entire conversation centers on the patently ridiculous notion that _something that does not exist has an inherent value_.  I don't engage in logically delusional conversations.  Some people may be greedy enough and delusional enough to believe such a patently and naturally ridiculous premise but not me.  Plus, the fact that crypto would be suppressed by the options markets while financial media and MSM in general would be completely ignoring cryptos if it weren't an officially sanctioned banker ponzi, instead of promoting it daily on their propaganda networks.





> Bitcoin will never work.... I saw a pic of something on a magazine 33 years ago... and like rothchilds and stuff.... oh yeah and bankers made it to destroy the banks. Duh....


So, ya got nothing.  Let me give you the same clue that I gave dannno.  If the media gives something lots of coverage, it's because they _want_ you to embrace it.  Didn't you learn anything from the "black out Ron Paul" days about how the media treats something that is a threat to the establishment?

----------


## dannno

> A conversation about what?  Seems to me the entire conversation centers on the patently ridiculous notion that _something that does not exist has an inherent value_.  I don't engage in logically delusional conversations.  Some people may be greedy enough and delusional enough to believe such a patently and naturally ridiculous premise but not me.  Plus, the fact that crypto would be suppressed by the options markets while financial media and MSM in general would be completely ignoring cryptos if it weren't an officially sanctioned banker ponzi, instead of promoting it daily on their propaganda networks.


Bitcoin exists.. it is a combination of math, cryptography, computer code and hardware systems that maintains a secure payment processing system using a currency with a small, known, predictable inflation rate.

The media hates BTC, but as it keeps going up they can't just talk bad about it all the time without losing more credibility with their readers. So they put out some stories promoting it so they don't seem too biased, while spending the majority of the time downplaying it.







> So, ya got nothing.  Let me give you the same clue that I gave dannno.  If the media gives something lots of coverage, it's because they _want_ you to embrace it.  Didn't you learn anything from the "black out Ron Paul" days about how the media treats something that is a threat to the establishment?


Different situations require different strategies. I didn't think the media could be so dishonest that if Ron Paul came in second place in a state, they would ignore it and pretend it didn't happen.. I knew they were bad, but I didn't know they could be that bad and still maintain what credibility they had. When they did that, it was a big wake-up call.. If Ron Paul had won a few states, I don't think they could have pulled it off, though. I think they would have gone back into attack strategy. At the level he was at, however, they were able to successfully use the ignore strategy.

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## PAF

> The media hates BTC, but as it keeps going up they can't just talk bad about it all the time without losing more credibility with their readers. So they put out some stories promoting it so they don't seem too biased, while spending the majority of the time downplaying it.


The media does not "hate" bitcoin. What the media (those in charge) hate, is the fact that it is not exclusively regulated [yet], and that they don't get to steal a cut of the pie. But that is being worked on. CoinBase, and others, are incorporating regulation with the government. Excluding the original bitcoiners who understand how BTC can and should be used (outside of government stranglehold), most of the average people hopping onto the crypto bandwagon today are utilizing regulated marketplaces. In the end, regulation will win out, you will be required to pay taxes on any/all crypto, and it will be treated like the FRN. The only difference being is that there is a cap on BTC, keeping in mind that once crypto is widely accepted, any digital currency can be programmed/regulated and will be adopted.

Well, that's my .00000035 satoshis.

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## Proph

> A conversation about what?  Seems to me the entire conversation centers on the patently ridiculous notion that _something that does not exist has an inherent value_.  I don't engage in logically delusional conversations.  Some people may be greedy enough and delusional enough to believe such a patently and naturally ridiculous premise but not me.  Plus, the fact that crypto would be suppressed by the options markets while financial media and MSM in general would be completely ignoring cryptos if it weren't an officially sanctioned banker ponzi, instead of promoting it daily on their propaganda networks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, ya got nothing.  Let me give you the same clue that I gave dannno.  If the media gives something lots of coverage, it's because they _want_ you to embrace it.  Didn't you learn anything from the "black out Ron Paul" days about how the media treats something that is a threat to the establishment?


This conversation:




> The media does not "hate" bitcoin. What the media (those in charge) hate, is the fact that it is not exclusively regulated [yet], and that they don't get to steal a cut of the pie. But that is being worked on. CoinBase, and others, are incorporating regulation with the government. Excluding the original bitcoiners who understand how BTC can and should be used (outside of government stranglehold), most of the average people hopping onto the crypto bandwagon today are utilizing regulated marketplaces. In the end, regulation will win out, you will be required to pay taxes on any/all crypto, and it will be treated like the FRN. The only difference being is that there is a cap on BTC, keeping in mind that once crypto is widely accepted, any digital currency can be programmed/regulated and will be adopted.
> 
> Well, that's my .00000035 satoshis.


The main drawbacks of cryptocurrencies come from governments, more so than the protocols themselves.

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## dannno

*Mining Bitcoin for Heat, Strawberries and Chickens*
*More and more people are turning to crypto mining to heat their homes and businesses – and earn a profit.*

https://www.coindesk.com/mining-bitc...rries-chickens

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## Mordan

back to 55k

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## dannno

$61k

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## dannno

$64.5k

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## devil21

"The digital currencies that matter - Get ready for Fedcoin and the e-euro" - Economist mag

https://www.economist.com/leaders/20...es-that-matter



Well dang, that looks just like a picture of a...........naaaa couldn't be.  Posters on this 37 page thread been sayin' 'nuh uh' for 4 years now.  The "G" and All Seeing Eye is a nice touch, guys.  No one will ever figure that out.  Must be coincidence that bitcoin's highest price so far is 63333.  When does it hit 66600 then crash?

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## dannno

> "The digital currencies that matter - Get ready for Fedcoin and the e-euro" - Economist mag
> 
> https://www.economist.com/leaders/20...es-that-matter
> 
> 
> 
> Well dang, that looks just like a picture of a...........naaaa couldn't be.  Posters on this 37 page thread been sayin' 'nuh uh' for 4 years now.  The "G" and All Seeing Eye is a nice touch, guys.  No one will ever figure that out.  Must be coincidence that bitcoin's highest price so far is 63333.  When does it hit 66600 then crash?


I've always argued Fedcoin was inevitable. Bitcoin is a tool to avoid it and have alternatives.

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## devil21

> I've always argued Fedcoin was inevitable. Bitcoin is a tool to avoid it and have alternatives.


Are we going for 38 pages of nuh uh?

Seeing reports tonight that Coinbase is locking up bitcoin trades "for your protection".......Gensler said the other day that the SEC is going to institute regulations to "protect the consumer".  Seems Coinbase is already starting to protect the $#@! out of bitcoiners.  (Pro tip:  None of the exchanges have the actual dollar liquidity to back up the nominal crypto prices.  But that's how it's always been in banker-land.  Fractional reserve garbage that collapses when everyone runs for the exits because it's all smoke and mirrors.  Maybe Coinbase has a little more since getting a Wall Street handout when it went public the other day but the rest of the exchanges have long since made off with your dollars and can't/won't actually cash you out in any large amounts.  Ponzi scheme writ large.) 

Elon appearing on SNL tonight too.  Given that he's a front man for "deep state", I wouldn't be surprised if his appearance marks the end of this whole production and it's quickly downhill from here.

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## dannno

> Are we going for 38 pages of nuh uh?
> 
> Seeing reports tonight that Coinbase is locking up bitcoin trades "for your protection".......Gensler said the other day that the SEC is going to institute regulations to "protect the consumer".  Seems Coinbase is already starting to protect the $#@! out of bitcoiners.  (Pro tip:  None of the exchanges have the actual dollar liquidity to back up the nominal crypto prices.  But that's how it's always been in banker-land.  Fractional reserve garbage that collapses when everyone runs for the exits because it's all smoke and mirrors.  Maybe Coinbase has a little more since getting a Wall Street handout when it went public the other day but the rest of the exchanges have long since made off with your dollars and can't/won't actually cash you out in any large amounts.  Ponzi scheme writ large.) 
> 
> Elon appearing on SNL tonight too.  Given that he's a front man for "deep state", I wouldn't be surprised if his appearance marks the end of this whole production and it's quickly downhill from here.


You're a weird dude.. why would coinbase have the cash liquidity to backup their bitcoin balances? That's like asking a gold vault to have the cash liquidity to backup their gold deposits... They have the GOLD. That's the whole point.

No idea what you are talking about with coinbase locking up bitcoin trades, but coinbase is just an exchange. It's not bitcoin. If you have large amounts of crypto, you shouldn't be keeping it all on exchanges.

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## devil21

> You're a weird dude..


In today's world that's called "thinking"...for that I plead guilty.




> why would coinbase have the cash liquidity to backup their bitcoin balances? That's like asking a gold vault to have the cash liquidity to backup their gold deposits... They have the GOLD. That's the whole point.


Gold is real and is money itself, therefore no cash liquidity is necessary.  Neither bitcoin nor digital dollars on a ledger are real and are not money.  Mighty big difference.




> No idea what you are talking about with coinbase locking up bitcoin trades, but coinbase is just an exchange. It's not bitcoin. If you have large amounts of crypto, you shouldn't be keeping it all on exchanges.


Just some reports I saw that coinbase was behaving strangely yesterday.  I see robinhood crashed again when doge dumped too lol.

Maybe I'm missing a piece of info but in order to cash out bitcoin into digital dollars, don't you still need to go back onto an exchange to do that?  The exchange needs to have dollar liquidity to send to you, right?  If they don't then how is it any different than the rest of the fractional reserve ponzi junk, where claims on an asset far exceed availability of the asset?

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## dannno

> Gold is real and is money itself, therefore no cash liquidity is necessary.  Neither bitcoin nor digital dollars on a ledger are real and are not money.  Mighty big difference.


Gold isn't any more "real money" or any more "real" than bitcoin as long as there is the network infrastructure to support it.. gold and bitcoin both have pro's and cons. One of the cons of bitcoin is that it requires network infrastructure. One of the pro's is that I can send you bitcoin if you are in another state or country without having worry about physical delivery. Imagine trying to send a few bars of gold to somebody in another country, safely and securely. It would be expensive and risky. With bitcoin, it is extremely cheap and secure to transfer. You can do it all day, instantaneously, back and forth. Bitcoin also has much greater security than gold. Somebody with a lot of guns can come and take your gold, but there are easy ways to prevent this with bitcoin. Otherwise, they are similar as there are limited amounts of gold, and limited amounts of bitcoin. 

If people stopped buying gold - let's say somebody found a way to produce gold cheaply using aluminum. People would run to the gold shops and start trying to sell at the current prices, but nobody would be willing to buy and the liquidity would drop the same way as if people ran for the exit on bitcoin. 




> Maybe I'm missing a piece of info but in order to cash out bitcoin into digital dollars, don't you still need to go back onto an exchange to do that?  The exchange needs to have dollar liquidity to send to you, right?  If they don't then how is it any different than the rest of the fractional reserve ponzi junk, where claims on an asset far exceed availability of the asset?


Like a stock, or like gold, the price is based on the last sale that occurred. That means at any price bitcoin is at, there are willing buyers and sellers. So when you cash out your bitcoin at an exchange, the willing buyers buy up the bitcoin and whatever the price they are willing to pay for it is, that is the current price of bitcoin.

I'm not trashing gold, gold is great. Bitcoin is great. They are both useful in ways that the other one isn't. People should own both.

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## devil21

> Elon appearing on SNL tonight too.  Given that he's a front man for "deep state", I wouldn't be surprised if his appearance marks the end of this whole production and it's quickly downhill from here.


Lookin' pretty prescient here.  BTC was 58k that night of 5-8-21.  Been downhill since.  It's 29K tonight.

May 23rd marked the biblical harvest of first fruits of (your) labor, called Pentacost....must be coincidence, seeing how bitcoin isn't a banker invention, so I'm told.

I wonder if the harvest of second fruits takes place on a much larger scale in early fall?  Naaa, that's crazy talk.

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## Mordan

previous ATH broken... 66.9k

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## Mordan

back to 38k 

time to buy.

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## 69360

> back to 38k 
> 
> time to buy.


I don't know. I think that is just a double dip. I could be totally off but I see it going even lower with the pending EO. I predict the bottom this time is under 30.

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## Mordan

> I don't know. I think that is just a double dip. I could be totally off but I see it going even lower with the pending EO. I predict the bottom this time is under 30.


when the FBI busted the first Silk Road in September 2013... noobs panic sold saying Bitcoin was now useless.

then i shot from 100 usd to 1300.. 

That EO could be good for Bitcoin. It will be bad for $#@!coins though that are securities.

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## Mordan

41k

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## 69360

> I don't know. I think that is just a double dip. I could be totally off but I see it going even lower with the pending EO. I predict the bottom this time is under 30.


Been watching patiently. Currently 23 still no bottom in sight.

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## oyarde

S&p now a loss since biden took over, expecting the same for bitcoin. Oil at 122 thhough.

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## devil21

Hai guyz!  Are we still pretending like Bitcoin, et al wasn't purposely developed and released to promote the idea of blockchain CBDCs?  Trying to figure out where in the propaganda timeline we are.  Kthxbai!

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## 69360

> Hai guyz!  Are we still pretending like Bitcoin, et al wasn't purposely developed and released to promote the idea of blockchain CBDCs?  Trying to figure out where in the propaganda timeline we are.  Kthxbai!


I don't care about the who or why. My only concern is can it make me money.

At 19 now. I've read predictions the bottom will be 14 or as low as 11. If it recovers to previous levels, there is profit to be made.

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## GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged

For everything people say BTC is one thing I can say is that it is not stable.

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## 69360

> For everything people say BTC is one thing I can say is that it is not stable.


They tried that with the stablecoins that were pegged to the USD. Many of them are unpegging and losing value.

Personally I think BTC is too volitile to use as originally intended for purchases. 

My only interest is speculative, I might buy at the bottom and sell if it regains the previous levels.

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## GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged

> They tried that with the stablecoins that were pegged to the USD. Many of them are unpegging and losing value.
> 
> Personally I think BTC is too volitile to use as originally intended for purchases. 
> 
> My only interest is speculative, I might buy at the bottom and sell if it regains the previous levels.


That sounds great! The only trick is knowing where the "bottom" is.

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## GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged

Is BTC going to $5,000?

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## merkelstan

I'd say the organic BTC community has support at 20k.  To their mid-term memories <20 smells like a 'bargain'.

Institutional investors, the Central Bank Regime, and the Deep State have other plans though.

As Bob Higgs says -- "Regime Uncertainty"

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## Krugminator2

Lot of bad news like crypto hedge funds blowing up, people not getting paid on different crypto sites, everyone saying crypto worthless, etc.  but Bitcoin still holding right at it's previous all time high. Seems pretty bullish.

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## GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged

> Lot of bad news like crypto hedge funds blowing up, people not getting paid on different crypto sites, everyone saying crypto worthless, etc.  but Bitcoin still holding right at it's previous all time high. Seems pretty bullish.


You lost me here. "holding at its previous all time high." Wasn't it nearly 70k at one point?

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## Krugminator2

> You lost me here. "holding at its previous all time high." Wasn't it nearly 70k at one point?


2017 high.

https://finviz.com/crypto_charts.ashx?t=BTCUSD&tf=mo

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## GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged

> 2017 high.
> 
> https://finviz.com/crypto_charts.ashx?t=BTCUSD&tf=mo


If it happens to drop down to $5,000 will it be holding at its previous high also?

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## Krugminator2

> If it happens to drop down to $5,000 will it be holding at its previous high also?


Dec 2017 high is 19666, so no. See chart.

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## Krugminator2

Pretty crucial pt for crypto. Will be interesting to see if it puts in a higher low. Wouldn't be surprised if Wednesday CPI is an inflection pt up or down for crypto.

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## Krugminator2

> Pretty crucial pt for crypto. Will be interesting to see if it puts in a higher low. Wouldn't be surprised if Wednesday CPI is an inflection pt up or down for crypto.


Took a stab a Bitcoin with gbtc at 12.40. risk to 11.9. will see if it can hold and start a grind up

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## The Northbreather

> Took a stab a Bitcoin with gbtc at 12.40. risk to 11.9. will see if it can hold and start a grind up


What’s your target?

Also why not buy BTC itself?

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## dannno

> What’s your target?
> 
> Also why not buy BTC itself?


You can't buy BTC in the stock market.

Robinhood offers it, but I doubt he trades on there.

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## The Northbreather

> You can't buy BTC in stock market.
> 
> Robinhood offers it, but I doubt he trades on there.


I know that lol.

What is his target for the gbtc trade as he only listed his out.

Also why not just buy BTC instead of fund/trust…..

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## Krugminator2

> I know that lol.
> 
> What is his target for the gbtc trade as he only listed his out.
> 
> Also why not just buy BTC instead of fund/trust…..


 If it gets to the top of the range I will take 2/3rds off and then see how it acts. So 14ish.

I used GBTC because I just liked the looks of it better on the chart. Very unscientific. It is also trading at a big discount to the the bitcoin it holds.  I would never trade the actual Bitcoin. The few times I have traded something other than GBTC I have used the futures.


Edit July 23rd. I sold a third around the close of 7/15 and most of the rest on the open the next day with a nub end sold into the 15s. Still in a major downtrend. Would like to see it hold higher lows and firm up.

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## Krugminator2

MAJOR change in character in Bitcoin overnight. It is at $21k. Big hold of 20k. Seems like the kind of thing that can have some follow through.

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## devil21

Any one here going to admit to holding some heavy, heavy bags now that the ponzi is starting to collapse?

----------


## GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged

> Any one here going to admit to holding some heavy, heavy bags now that the ponzi is starting to collapse?


When is a good time to buy in?

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## ClaytonB

> Any one here going to admit to holding some heavy, heavy bags now that the ponzi is starting to collapse?


What collapse? Been tracing a ruler-straight line at $17k for six months, unbroken. Feels pegged (downward).

BTW, gold also feels pegged at $1,700ish. Not quite as long as BTC, but the price definitely does not seem organic to me.

----------


## devil21

> What collapse? Been tracing a ruler-straight line at $17k for six months, unbroken. Feels pegged (downward).


OK, carry on then.  One of the biggest global (if not the biggest, depending who you ask) AUM crypto firm has been exposed as an insolvent ponzi and has filed bankruptcy, with Congress now clamoring to pull Bankman-Fried into hearings about regulation....but nope, no collapse underway at all.  Move along, nothing to see.




> BTW, gold also feels pegged at $1,700ish. Not quite as long as BTC, but the price definitely does not seem organic to me.


Gee, you think it could be all controlled and manipulated?

----------


## ClaytonB

> OK, carry on then.  One of the biggest global (if not the biggest, depending who you ask) AUM crypto firm has been exposed as an insolvent ponzi and has filed bankruptcy, with Congress now clamoring to pull Bankman-Fried into hearings about regulation....but nope, no collapse underway at all.  Move along, nothing to see.


Do you understand the difference between an exchange and the blockchain? Every exchange can collapse and if you hold your own Bitcoin, it won't affect you except that it might make it more difficult to convert Bitcoin into USD (which they're already making as difficult as possible, anyway).

In case you haven't noticed, Bitcoin isn't trying to be compatible with USD. Bitcoin is an entirely separate monetary regime, full-stop.




> Gee, you think it could be all controlled and manipulated?


If you want to play the black-pill gambit, suit yourself. The Abyss is truly bottomless. There's this thing called "faith" and you need at least a mustard-seed's worth to get into heaven. I don't know what specific tools God is going to use to destroy this world order. Bitcoin may be one of them, or it may not be. All I know for sure is that he's about to destroy this world-order, and what's on the other side is the thing that all men are truly seeking ... Paradise. All the usual suspects hate Bitcoin with the flaming fury of a billion suns. So, for now, Bitcoin must be doing something right...

----------


## devil21

> Do you understand the difference between an exchange and the blockchain? Every exchange can collapse and if you hold your own Bitcoin, it won't affect you except that it might make it more difficult to convert Bitcoin into USD (which they're already making as difficult as possible, anyway).
> 
> In case you haven't noticed, Bitcoin isn't trying to be compatible with USD. Bitcoin is an entirely separate monetary regime, full-stop.


I don't care if it's blockchain or smoke signal based.  A ponzi is a ponzi and they all collapse eventually when the greater fool bagholders dry up.  I understand quite well that the blockchain is just a string of numbers and has no inherent value except as a new kind of accounting ledger gimmick, brought to us by the usual accounting-gimmick suspects.  It has no monetary value unto itself and therefore the numbers on your little USB wallet thingie have no inherent value either.  It has the same inherent value as your neighbor's dick pic on a USB stick does.




> All the usual suspects hate Bitcoin with the flaming fury of a billion suns. So, for now, Bitcoin must be doing something right...


Yeah yeah....XYZ hates it so it must be great.  That schtick is getting pretty tired lately.

----------


## ClaytonB

> I don't care if it's blockchain or smoke signal based.  A ponzi is a ponzi and they all collapse eventually when the greater fool bagholders dry up.


Well, you're in good company!







> I understand quite well that the blockchain is just a string of numbers and has no inherent value except as a new kind of accounting ledger gimmick, brought to us by the usual accounting-gimmick suspects.


The Federal Reserve and every other central "bank" in the world is nothing but a ledger, to which numbers are added whenever the government wants them to buy more of its bonds (which it just prints out of thin air, and which they purchase with ledger money created out of thin air). So, if all ledger money is a ponzi scheme, and doomed, then Bitcoin is _no worse_ than any other fiat money in the world on that grounds. The difference is that, unlike a central bank's ledger, the Bitcoin ledger cannot be added to (except for the mining subsidy, which is fully predictable, thus, priced in by the market). Let's see, I can either hold FRNs on the Federal Reserve's magic money ledger, which it dilutes and devalues _ad nauseum_, or I can hold BTC on the Bitcoin network's magic money ledger which cannot be diluted/devalued. I wonder which is better? The fact that Bitcoin is preferable to any ledger operated by a central "bank" means that we should expect that the ledger-money ponzi schemes operated by central "banks" will collapse before Bitcoin does. So, if all boats are sinking, I'd rather be in the Bitcoin boat than in an FRN boat. Et cetera.




> It has no monetary value unto itself


Nothing has monetary value unto itself. Search "subjective theory of value."




> and therefore the numbers on your little USB wallet thingie have no inherent value either.  It has the same inherent value as your neighbor's dick pic on a USB stick does.


Calm down with the gay porn there, cowboy... no need to get emotional about an Internet debate. Bitcoin is not free of faults, nor above criticism. But it's objectively better than the fiat "money" issued by any central "bank" in the world, and we're all quite used to doing business with that funny-money. So, Bitcoin is more than capable of doing exactly the same thing, with the same level of performance over time, meaning, ability to function until the "inevitable" ponzi-scheme collapse. And that's _assuming_ your point that it's a ponzi-scheme. Which it objectively is not.







> Yeah yeah....XYZ hates it so it must be great.  That schtick is getting pretty tired lately.


XYZ hates it, and they're not pretending, so it's certainly not "just another trick of the Establishment." Bitcoin may be a lot of things, but it's not a trick of the Establishment. They truly, madly, deeply hate Bitcoin...

----------

