# Liberty Movement > Defenders of Liberty > Thomas Massie Forum >  Massie Is a Traitor

## jabowery

The breakdown of votes by political party is clear:

Immigrants are not upholding their oaths to support the Constitution because they overwhelmingly vote for Democrats*.

In this circumstance the only patriotic polilcy is to stop immigration.

Massie wants to increase immigation.

If there is any doubt that a vote for Democrats is a vote against the Constitution, one need only compare the records of Republicans vs Democrats to see that however evil and traitorous the Republicans might be, they are not as evil and traitorous as are the Democrats.

*Asians are voting more overwhelmingly for Democrats than even Hispanics.

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## MelissaWV

I'm sorry, did you have a particular vote you wanted to discuss?  Or are you calling him a traitor because he is Republican?  Or is it something about the Asians?  Or...?

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## Confederate

While my opinion is that non-western and non-Christian immigration should be halted, what Massie has talked about regarding immigration is in regards to high-skilled labor. When he was on Fox Business on Friday he talked about the need to keep the thousands of science/math/engineering students that come to American universities and then go back home taking with them all the skills they acquired while studying in the US. I agree with him on making every effort to try and keep those people in the US.

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## jdmyprez_deo_vindice

He has his first 'he sucks' thread on RPF. He has officially arrived.

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## SpreadOfLiberty

Good grief.

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## erowe1

> The breakdown of votes by political party is clear:
> 
> Immigrants are not upholding their oaths to support the Constitution because they overwhelmingly vote for Democrats*.
> 
> In this circumstance the only patriotic polilcy is to stop immigration.
> 
> Massie wants to increase immigation.
> 
> If there is any doubt that a vote for Democrats is a vote against the Constitution, one need only compare the records of Republicans vs Democrats to see that however evil and traitorous the Republicans might be, they are not as evil and traitorous as are the Democrats.
> ...


Would you think they supported the Constitution if they voted for Republicans?

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## Kotin

Um wut?

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## Matt Collins

Immigration is a divisive issue among the liberty community, there is no one singular "liberty view" on it as people can have honest disagreements about it; Judge Nap himself has even said this.

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## sailingaway

> He has his first 'he sucks' thread on RPF. He has officially arrived.


Seriously. the title belongs in the vent, but it's his very first one.... I almost feel like we should bronze it...

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## torchbearer

> He has his first 'he sucks' thread on RPF. He has officially arrived.


you are no body until you get flamed on rpf.
they should have a badge or challenge coin for surviving this jungle.

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## Occam's Banana



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## green73

>

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## muzzled dogg

lmao

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## mz10

This has been a very unique thread so far, in that all the different (usually bickering) factions of RPF seem to be in complete harmony and agreement over how stupid the original post was.

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## Keith and stuff

The creator of this thread doesn't have enough karma. He seems like a great guy. But serious, aren't those Asians terrible on liberty issue. For example, Justin Amash's parents are Asian and look at his horrible voting record

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## Canderson

> While my opinion is that non-western and non-Christian immigration should be halted...


You're insane, you realize we were founded on FREEDOM OF RELIGION, not 'judeo-christian values' right? The congress passed a treaty in 1796 proclaiming "The United States was not in any sense founded on the Christian religion" and it was supported by George Washington and signed by John Adams. Thomas Jefferson even expressed his disbelief in the divinity of Jesus and particularly the holy trinity. The following quote in a letter he wrote to John Adams is only one of many instances where he denied the tenants of Christianity: "And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter". Granted these men were, by all accounts believers in God, but certainly not Christians. Most historians classify them Diests. It is also well documented that George Washington usually refused communion. Regardless of their religion, Why would we want to have the government in any way attempting to influence changes in our demographics: religious, ethnic or otherwise?

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## Confederate

> You're insane, you realize we were founded on FREEDOM OF RELIGION, not 'judeo-christian values' right? The congress passed a treaty in 1796 proclaiming "The United States was not in any sense founded on the Christian religion" and it was supported by George Washington and signed by John Adams. Thomas Jefferson even expressed his disbelief in the divinity of Jesus and particularly the holy trinity. The following quote in a letter he wrote to John Adams is only one of many instances where he denied the tenants of Christianity: "And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter". Granted these men were, by all accounts believers in God, but certainly not Christians. Most historians classify them Diests. It is also well documented that George Washington usually refused communion. Regardless of their religion, Why would we want to have the government in any way attempting to influence changes in our demographics: religious, ethnic or otherwise?


You do know the treaty that said that was with an Islamist regime, right?

The US was unequivocally founded on Christian values.

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## jabowery

> This has been a very unique thread so far, in that all the different (usually bickering) factions of RPF seem to be in complete harmony and agreement over how stupid the original post was.


Yes they have been in agreement that the original post does not merit a serious counter argument.

That is simply because there is no serious counter argument to the stark reality:

Immigrants, including high skilled Asian immigrants, vote overwhelmingly Democrat and in the present circumstances, voting to increase the number of citizens that will vote Democrat is a vote against the Constitution.

Massie is against the Constitution.

And so are, by the way, all who have refused to "dignify" my argument with anything but an ad hominem response.

Make no mistake about it, folks, rivers of blood will flow over this issue.

Pro-immigrationists are in the wrong for electing a new people and there will be no mercy shown them.

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## Cowlesy

> Make no mistake about it, folks, rivers of blood will flow over this issue.


Thanks, Uncle Enoch.

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## GunnyFreedom

LMAO GTFO

This is why we keep getting crushed by establishmentarian Reps and Dems.  See, we think we are so smart when really we are dumber than a sack of mud.

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## Cowlesy

> You're insane, you realize we were founded on FREEDOM OF RELIGION, not 'judeo-christian values' right? The congress passed a treaty in 1796 proclaiming "The United States was not in any sense founded on the Christian religion" and it was supported by George Washington and signed by John Adams. Thomas Jefferson even expressed his disbelief in the divinity of Jesus and particularly the holy trinity. The following quote in a letter he wrote to John Adams is only one of many instances where he denied the tenants of Christianity: "And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter". Granted these men were, by all accounts believers in God, but certainly not Christians. Most historians classify them Diests. It is also well documented that George Washington usually refused communion. Regardless of their religion, Why would we want to have the government in any way attempting to influence changes in our demographics: religious, ethnic or otherwise?


Good learning material here: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...sts+befranklin

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## Pericles

> LMAO GTFO
> 
> This is why we keep getting crushed by establishmentarian Reps and Dems.  See, we think we are so smart when really we are dumber than a sack of mud.


Sadly, such is the case.

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## jabowery

> Thanks, Uncle Enoch.



Enoch Powell has withstood the test of time.

Look what is happening in London.

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## Natural Citizen

> When he was on Fox Business on Friday he talked about the need to keep the thousands of science/math/engineering students that come to American universities and then go back home taking with them all the skills they acquired while studying in the US. I agree with him on making every effort to try and keep those people in the US.


I think we need to educate our own. But Massie is smart enough to know that without the H1B and _in our current state_ of transition in education we tank. Bigtime. I'd rather hear him discuss S.T.E.M program that our students here at home are fully engaged in and how they are growing. What's wrong with that? Why negate these American youth in favor of foreign students. It's a_ choice_ to make that argument.

Sure wish I knew his screen name here. He needs to be drilled on this properly. And not the usual generic spew either. Is a very broad issue. He's taking the shortcut. It's clear if anyone with half a clue even watched the Fox Business discussion. Terms of controversy shouldn't be limited to generic platform.

Who speaks for S.T.EM. relative to _American_ Youth? Historically, the only reason to rely upon the H1B is because we had no students educated in these fields. This is now changing. And it's changing quite fast. I don't think they'll be able to continue running flunk out programs at some of these science based institutions at the rate we are going and I think our students will be able to compete for these jobs. Seems to be a conflict of interest to me on the part of the congressman.

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## jabowery

> Who speaks for S.T.EM. relative to _American_ Youth?


I do and, so far as I can tell around here, only I do.

Not one of the morally vain ignoramuses spouting pseudo-libertarian theology parading around has had anything close to the first hand experience with the STEM immigration phenomenon that I have.

Ethnic nepotism isn't an isolated phenomenon here and there.  The article of faith that cutting labor costs won't have dire long-term consequences for not only the nation -- for who the hell cares about the nation anyway when one's own business is at stake -- but one's own business as well is virtually a canon of the treasonous de facto theocracy -- of which pseudo-libertarians are a mere minor cult.  The scythe is swinging relentlessly through the Fortune 500 that have engaged in the greatest degree of H-1b fraud starting with Sun Microsystems and now hitting hard at Hewlett-Packard and Microsoft.  At HP I was told that I could hire all the H-1b employees I wanted but I could not hire the one PhD from the US in the specialty I needed for the job.  This was not a minor project but the single largest investment by HP during the dot-con era boom -- a project touted to bring about "Internet Chapter 2".  Nor is HP an insignificant player in STEM -- it was a founding company of Silicon Valley.  The director of that program was from India.  The person who told me I could hire the H-1b's was from India.  There were guys from India being paid $200/hour who had no discernible skills and the assembly line was quite simply to use HP's generous employee education benefits to send immigrants to Stanford and other high profile business colleges to get MBA's to then go into executive positions in the Fortune 500 where, presumably, they would engage in similarly illegal, fraudulent ethnic nepotism.

But to point out reality of this type is "racist" or something.  Oh, no.. I know what it is.... I was _traumatized_ by a _unique_ experience and have therefore a need of psychotherapy to get over my post traumatic stress disorder -- or something.

Right?

Better get the guns out of my hands quick for who knows what kind of kooky thing I might do next!

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## Natural Citizen

> I do and, so far as I can tell around here, only I do.
> 
> Not one of the morally vain ignoramuses spouting pseudo-libertarian theology parading around has had anything close to the first hand experience with the STEM immigration phenomenon that I have.
> 
> Ethnic nepotism isn't an isolated phenomenon here and there.  The article of faith that cutting labor costs won't have dire long-term consequences for not only the nation -- for who the hell cares about the nation anyway when one's own business is at stake -- but one's own business as well is virtually a canon of the treasonous de facto theocracy -- of which pseudo-libertarians are a mere minor cult.  The scythe is swinging relentlessly through the Fortune 500 that have engaged in the greatest degree of H-1b fraud starting with Sun Microsystems and now hitting hard at Hewlett-Packard and Microsoft.  At HP I was told that I could hire all the H-1b employees I wanted but I could not hire the one PhD from the US in the specialty I needed for the job.  This was not a minor project but the single largest investment by HP during the dot-con era boom -- a project touted to bring about "Internet Chapter 2".  Nor is HP an insignificant player in STEM -- it was a founding company of Silicon Valley.  The director of that program was from India.  The person who told me I could hire the H-1b's was from India.  There were guys from India being paid $200/hour who had no discernible skills and the assembly line was quite simply to use HP's generous employee education benefits to send immigrants to Stanford and other high profile business colleges to get MBA's to then go into executive positions in the Fortune 500 where, presumably, they would engage in similarly illegal, fraudulent ethnic nepotism.
> 
> But to point out reality of this type is "racist" or something.  Oh, no.. I know what it is.... I was _traumatized_ by a _unique_ experience and have therefore a need of psychotherapy to get over my post traumatic stress disorder -- or something.
> 
> Right?
> ...


Well...theoretically, this is a global phenomenon. I can support his "shenanigans" if he better explains it. And by that I don't mean in the usual context of politics as far as the average observer comprehends relevence to this particular curriculum. All I care about is the program as it relates to our youth here at home. We have some bright youth growing up. They have most of the tools they need regardless of popular opinion. The business end of it is another milestone yet to be approached. That said, I can see Massie's point to an extent. Until you hear a good once over from him though there is no sense in discussing it here. I don't want to bury him or anything but I think he should consider that some of us know a thing or three about how things are panning out in the field of S.T.E.M. and application. He can't just rely upon the old "I went to MIT so I know the deal" gag. That may work for some but not all of us. Not that he is doing that but others seem to be adding that context to the meme or narrative as it may relate to their own personal view of the issue and as far as they understand scope.

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## Smart3

I'm a passionate supporter of immigration.

and also emigration. OP please consider moving!

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## Neil Desmond

> The breakdown of votes by political party is clear:
> 
> Immigrants are not upholding their oaths to support the Constitution because they overwhelmingly vote for Democrats*.


Your argument is that immigrants aren't supporting the Constitution because of how they vote; but the Constitution gives people the right to vote.  If they're not breaking the law and they're doing what the Constitution - the one that you say they aren't supporting - states that they're allowed to do, then it is not the case that immigrants are not upholding their oaths.  You're basically contradicting yourself here.




> In this circumstance the only patriotic polilcy is to stop immigration.


Collective punishment?




> Massie wants to increase immigation.


He wants to increase immigration?  If so, I'd like to see your source on this so I can see his explanation for why he wants to - as you say - "increase" immigration.  From what I've seen, there's nothing wrong with his position on immigration; he even gives a valid explanation for his position on immigration in a recent interview that I watched.




> If there is any doubt that a vote for Democrats is a vote against the Constitution, one need only compare the records of Republicans vs Democrats to see that however evil and traitorous the Republicans might be, they are not as evil and traitorous as are the Democrats.


Overall both the Democrats and Republicans are equally evil and "traitorous" as you say, but there are some decent individuals (although their numbers are small) affiliated with these political parties.  Why not let Massie and other defenders of liberty support a sound immigration policy and work on persuading immigrants to support defenders of liberty?  Maybe that would be more helpful and productive than labeling Massie a "traitor."




> *Asians are voting more overwhelmingly for Democrats than even Hispanics.

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## asurfaholic

> While my opinion is that non-western and non-Christian immigration should be halted, what Massie has talked about regarding immigration is in regards to high-skilled labor. When he was on Fox Business on Friday he talked about the need to keep the thousands of science/math/engineering students that come to American universities and then go back home taking with them all the skills they acquired while studying in the US. I agree with him on making every effort to try and keep those people in the US.


wait, so you think we should somehow verify that someone is a Christian before we allow them into the country? 

What kind of nut are you?

I think we should encourage the super smart muslims to come here to stay too. This country obviously needs less hate, and more compassion. People like you are bringing everyone else down. Maybe you should read the Bible for a change.

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## mz10

> Make no mistake about it, folks, rivers of blood will flow over this issue.
> 
> Pro-immigrationists are in the wrong for electing a new people and there will be no mercy shown them.


These would be sick metal lyrics

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## brandon

Great thread, great job OP thanks for this great contribution

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## Cowlesy

> While my opinion is that non-western and non-Christian immigration should be halted, what Massie has talked about regarding immigration is in regards to high-skilled labor. When he was on Fox Business on Friday he talked about the need to keep the thousands of science/math/engineering students that come to American universities and then go back home taking with them all the skills they acquired while studying in the US. I agree with him on making every effort to try and keep those people in the US.





> wait, so you think we should somehow verify that someone is a Christian before we allow them into the country? 
> 
> What kind of nut are you?
> 
> I think we should encourage the super smart muslims to come here to stay too. *This country obviously needs less hate, and more compassion.* People like you are bringing everyone else down. Maybe you should read the Bible for a change.


That smacks of the people who think that guys in the link below, really just are misunderstood and need more compassion.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9875...Allowance.html




> By Melanie Hall3:21PM GMT 17 Feb 2013
> Anjem Choudary was secretly filmed mocking non-Muslims for working in 9-5 jobs their whole lives, and told followers that some revered Islamic figures had only ever worked one or two days a year.
> “The rest of the year they were busy with jihad [holy war] and things like that,” he said. “People will say, ‘Ah, but you are not working’.
> *“But the normal situation is for you to take money from the kuffar [non-believers].
> “So we take Jihad Seeker’s Allowance. You need to get support.”
> He went on to tell a 30-strong crowd: “We are going to take England — the Muslims are coming.”*
> 
> Ridiculing the daily lives of UK workers, Choudary said: “You find people are busy working the whole of their life. They wake up at 7 o’clock. They go to work at 9 o’clock.
> “They work for eight, nine hours a day. They come home at 7 o’clock, watch EastEnders, sleep, and they do that for 40 years of their life. That is called slavery.”
> ...


So while I can sympathize with your point, I think there's a big, roiling undercurrent brewing in some of these communities that many of us in our strawberries-and-cream, hand-holding-singing-kumbayah vision of society may at times need to take a step back from.  

There are some communities that realize, "Hey!  We can use this excuse to get into their wealthy country, we can live off their largesse and we feed off them from the inside.  They're so politically correct and sensitive, that won't be able to criticize us."  

I am sure you disagree with that, but I believe it's a fact.  So I don't think Neoconfederate is a "nut" or "hating" or "lacking compassion."  It's simply a non-liberal point of view.

*shrug*

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## Brian4Liberty

> ...
> Ethnic nepotism isn't an isolated phenomenon here and there. 
> ...
> The director of that program was from India.  The person who told me I could hire the H-1b's was from India.


I can confirm this phenomenon.

Family/Ethnic/tribal/religious/gender/sexual orientation or any grouping you can think of engage in favoritism in hiring. Pretty much a basic law of human nature.

It would be easier to just point out that straight men with sufficient northern European heritage are considered exceptions, and that they can, should and will be chastised or legally punished for engaging in standard human behavior.

This behavior varies as to it's political correctness based on culture. To some cultures, you would be considered a damn fool to not engage in favoritism or nepotism. Americans are considered the kind-hearted fools of the world.

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## kathy88



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## IndianaPolitico

Since I am asian, should I move out of the country to make you feel better?

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## compromise

Asians have until recent years been a solid Republican voting bloc. Asians strongly supported Ronald Reagan. Asians were more conservative than whites even up until as late as the 1990s, with the Dems only gaining a majority of the Asian vote in 2004.

It is very possible for the GOP to get Asians back by going back to their traditional positions and abandoning neo-conservative and Rockerfeller Republican ideas and having a more effective outreach programme to the Asian-American community.

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## erowe1

> Asians have until recent years been a solid Republican voting bloc. Asians strongly supported Ronald Reagan. Asians were more conservative than whites even up until as late as the 1990s, with the Dems only gaining a majority of the Asian vote in 2004.
> 
> It is very possible for the GOP to get Asians back by going back to their traditional positions and abandoning neo-conservative and Rockerfeller Republican ideas and having a more effective outreach programme to the Asian-American community.


Foreign policy is definitely a big factor in that shift.

But the other factor, and maybe a bigger one, is that over the period of time you're talking about, the two parties have more and more taken on the appearance (even if it's undeserved) of the Dems being the pro-immigration party and the Republicans being the anti-immigration party.

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## jmdrake

//

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## jmdrake

> This has been a very unique thread so far, in that all the different (usually bickering) factions of RPF seem to be in complete harmony and agreement over how stupid the original post was.


You jinxed the thread.




> While my opinion is that non-western and non-Christian immigration should be halted, what Massie has talked about regarding immigration is in regards to high-skilled labor. When he was on Fox Business on Friday he talked about the need to keep the thousands of science/math/engineering students that come to American universities and then go back home taking with them all the skills they acquired while studying in the US. I agree with him on making every effort to try and keep those people in the US.





> You're insane, you realize we were founded on FREEDOM OF RELIGION, not 'judeo-christian values' right? The congress passed a treaty in 1796 proclaiming "The United States was not in any sense founded on the Christian religion" and it was supported by George Washington and signed by John Adams. Thomas Jefferson even expressed his disbelief in the divinity of Jesus and particularly the holy trinity. The following quote in a letter he wrote to John Adams is only one of many instances where he denied the tenants of Christianity: "And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter". Granted these men were, by all accounts believers in God, but certainly not Christians. Most historians classify them Diests. It is also well documented that George Washington usually refused communion. Regardless of their religion, Why would we want to have the government in any way attempting to influence changes in our demographics: religious, ethnic or otherwise?

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## jmdrake

> While my opinion is that non-western and non-Christian immigration should be halted, what Massie has talked about regarding immigration is in regards to high-skilled labor. When he was on Fox Business on Friday he talked about the need to keep the thousands of science/math/engineering students that come to American universities and then go back home taking with them all the skills they acquired while studying in the US. I agree with him on making every effort to try and keep those people in the US.


Does that include keeping out Jews?  Or do they get grandfathered in as part of a "Judeo Christian tradition?"  And what about Hindu engineers and computer scientists?  Or Japanese Shintoists/Buddhists opening up a new automobile plant?  Or......?

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## jmdrake

> That smacks of the people who think that guys in the link below, really just are misunderstood and need more compassion.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9875...Allowance.html
> 
> 
> 
> So while I can sympathize with your point, I think there's a big, roiling undercurrent brewing in some of these communities that many of us in our strawberries-and-cream, hand-holding-singing-kumbayah vision of society may at times need to take a step back from.  
> 
> There are some communities that realize, "Hey!  We can use this excuse to get into their wealthy country, we can live off their largesse and we feed off them from the inside.  They're so politically correct and sensitive, that won't be able to criticize us."  
> ...


Well since the vast majority of those seeking to immigrate to the U.S. are from Latin America and here by definition both "western" (they live in the western hemisphere) and "Christian"........does your article from the Telegraph even have an relevance?

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## TheGrinch

I like it. We can surely gain more latinos like the ones who support Ron, by telling them that they don't deserve rights because many of them vote democrat ( if it wasn't completely obvious)

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## Cowlesy

> Well since the vast majority of those seeking to immigrate to the U.S. are from Latin America and here by definition both "western" (they live in the western hemisphere) and "Christian"........does your article from the Telegraph even have an relevance?


Clearly I think it does and you do not, so where do we stand now?

Last time I checked, we have a bloated and unwieldy welfare and transfer payment system.  We're having plenty of issues assimilated the masses of "refugees".  

You may scoff and guffaw and bluster about Britain's problems, but I assure you we have the same issues here.  The State Department is "alarmed" and how much fraud and abuse is prevalent in our system.  I do not share their alarm; a great deal of people come here to get on the dole.  Fact.

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## jabowery

> Since I am asian, should I move out of the country to make you feel better?


Are you a citizen attempting to bring in more immigrants?

If so, its too late for you to move out.  You have already broken your oath to uphold the Constitution.  You are not merely a tourist, you are a traitor.

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## jabowery

> I like it. We can surely gain more latinos like the ones who support Ron, by telling them that they don't deserve rights because many of them vote democrat ( if it wasn't completely obvious)


If latinos identify more with their coethnics than they do with their oath to uphold the Constitution, then they aren't going to support individualism just because you pander to their group.

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## jabowery

> . Americans are considered the kind-hearted fools of the world.


As an ESL teacher from San Diego told it to me, the Hispanic vice-principle of her high school came right out and said, quite mockingly, "You anglos are just giving it away."

See "The WASP Question" for an in-depth analysis.

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## Natural Citizen

This is _not_ an immigration issue. If folks think it is then they are confused. Or purposefully spinning the terms of controversy. I think the latter moreso than the first.

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## TheGrinch

> If latinos identify more with their coethnics than they do with their oath to uphold the Constitution, then they aren't going to support individualism just because you pander to their group.


Pandering? What the hell are you talking about?

You don't have to pander to a group to realize that it's unfair to deny the entire group rights purely on the basis that many of them vote for a party that undermines it?

Do you think we should start stripping liberals and many republicans of their inalienable constitutional rights purely on the basis that they undermine it? Freedom means freedom, even for those you don't like and disagree with.

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## TheGrinch

> This is _not_ an immigration issue. If folks think it is then they are confused. Or purposefully spinning the terms of controversy. I think the latter moreso than the first.


No, it's an issue of collectivist persecution.

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## FSP-Rebel

this thread is butt

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## Keith and stuff

> Since I am asian, should I move out of the country to make you feel better?


And take Justin Amash with you. You Asians don't belong here because you do some much better on tests than simple white people

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## jmdrake

> Clearly I think it does and you do not, so where do we stand now?
> 
> Last time I checked, we have a bloated and unwieldy welfare and transfer payment system.  We're having plenty of issues assimilated the masses of "refugees".  
> 
> You may scoff and guffaw and bluster about Britain's problems, but I assure you we have the same issues here.  The State Department is "alarmed" and how much fraud and abuse is prevalent in our system.  I do not share their alarm; a great deal of people come here to get on the dole.  Fact.


I think you missed my point.  Confederate's proposal was to ban non Christian, not Western immigrants.  How does that help when most of our immigrants are western and Christian?  You can't get more western than the western hemisphere.  Now if he had said "Ban third world immigrants" that would be a different story.  In other words, would you rather have a Buddhist software engineer form Japan immigrating here or a Christian peasant from Mexico?

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## Feeding the Abscess

> And take Justin Amash with you. You Asians don't belong here because you do some much better on tests than simple white people


Amash's parents are Palestinian.

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## jabowery

> Pandering? What the hell are you talking about?
> 
> You don't have to pander to a group to realize that it's unfair to deny the entire group rights purely on the basis that many of them vote for a party that undermines it?


This nation is under demographic attack.  A new people is being elected by the government and related elites.  The people have a right to defend themselves even if there is no legitimate government underwhich to declare a state of war exists.

A state of war does exist.

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## erowe1

> This nation is under demographic attack.


What does "demographic attack" even mean?

Is the idea that you have a right to control the demographics of the rest of the country, and if somebody makes those demographics turn out different than you want them to be, that means they're attacking you?

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## TheGrinch

> This nation is under demographic attack.  A new people is being elected by the government and related elites.  The people have a right to defend themselves even if there is no legitimate government underwhich to declare a state of war exists.
> 
> A state of war does exist.


Way to misplace your anger at the misguided, desperate and disenfranchised, rather than those who actually game the system

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## jabowery

> What does "demographic attack" even mean?


Demographic attack is exactly what it sounds like:  

An attack being waged by means of demography.

The particular weaponry doesn't matter.

What matters is the outcome.

The outcome of this attack is obviously against the Constitution of the US -- against the individualistic American nation -- and is triumphantly proclaimed by Democrats as they mock Republicans over the outcome of the last election being due to racial bloc voting dominated by immigrants.  The Democrats have now openly declared race war against individualism.

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## erowe1

> Demographic attack is exactly what it sounds like:


It sounds like jibberish.




> An attack being waged by means of demography.


See, that's the problem. How could demography be an attack? Does an attack have to be a violation of someone's rights? If so, who's rights are violated by some demography being one thing rather than another?




> The outcome of this attack is obviously against the Constitution of the US -- against the individualistic American nation -- and is triumphantly proclaimed by Democrats as they mock Republicans over the outcome of the last election being due to racial bloc voting dominated by immigrants.


Oh, I get it. You want to elect people with R's after their names, and "demographic attacks" are making that harder for you.

But if the attack consists of who immigrants vote for, then shouldn't the criterion simply be that, who any given immigrant will vote for, rather than their skin color? Like, if you're black, white, brown, or yellow, and you vote for a great patriotic constitutionalist like Mitt Romney you can come, but if you're black, white, brown, or yellow, and you vote for the war-monger Obama, then you can't?

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## steph3n

This thread is going places!

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## Keith and stuff

> Amash's parents are Palestinian.


Of course they are. Palestine is in Asia. Israel is in Asia. Turkey is in Asia. Jordan is in Asia. Iraq is in Asia. And so on 

Though, you have a good point and might be correct. Some Palestinians have lived in Africa from time to time. Perhaps his parents were born in Africa and not Asia. That might make him an African American instead of an Asian American.

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## steph3n

> Demographic attack is exactly what it sounds like:  
> 
> An attack being waged by means of demography.
> 
> The particular weaponry doesn't matter.
> 
> What matters is the outcome.
> 
> The outcome of this attack is obviously against the Constitution of the US -- against the individualistic American nation -- and is triumphantly proclaimed by Democrats as they mock Republicans over the outcome of the last election being due to racial bloc voting dominated by immigrants.  The Democrats have now openly declared race war against individualism.


At least most of us here didn't get smacked with the stupid stick like some people obviously soak up and rejoice.

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## DaninPA

I read all 7 pages. Is there a prize?

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## compromise

> The Democrats have now openly declared *race war* against individualism.

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## MelissaWV

> I read all 7 pages. Is there a prize?


You must survive, and warn the others.

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## jcannon98188

I have a feeling that this is going to be one of those threads we all joke about in a few months. I am just glad I got to witness it unfold

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## Jeremy

Get this Numbers USA garbage out of here! YUCK!

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## Confederate

> Get this Numbers USA garbage out of here! YUCK!


Numbers USA is completely right on many things, birthright citizenship for example.

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## alucard13mmfmj

> *Asians are voting more overwhelmingly for Democrats than even Hispanics.


I will vouche for this. probably 8 out of 10 asians vote democrat. chinese really like hillary for some reason... so if hillary runs in 2016, expect most of the asian votes to go to hillary.

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## Natural Citizen

> No, it's an issue of collectivist persecution.


I don't know, grinch. I think a certain political demographic is getting ready to be left in the dust. Led there by their own. These artificial points like race and immigration are so far from what people should be concerned with that it's mind baffling.It always comes to those two generic points. They exist only to deter relevance in my opinion. 

I guess if folks are thinking in a purely political atmosphere then one could create the illusion of controversy for some comfort of self worth or relevance but the fact  is that by doing so it guarantees that change in it's truest form will pass them right by. This is true. Many will disagree but it doesn't change that reality. Youth have the power. There will be those who want to put a roadblock in front of them and then there will be those who kick it down. So...yeah. To continue with these tinker toys of immigration and race is silly though. Serves opnly to remove the more relevant terms of controversy from discussion.Reminds me of this song I was just listening to on juniors trinket. I'll put it in the other thread. you know the one...

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## jabowery

> I don't know, grinch. I think a certain political demographic is getting ready to be left in the dust. Led there by their own.


You misspelled "Led there by traitors like Massie."



> These artificial points like race and immigration are so far from what people should be concerned with that it's mind baffling.


When, with the aid and comfort of pseudo-libertarian traitors, the immigration-restrictionists-are-wrong crowd win, there will be no stopping the political forces gutting the rest of the bill of rights.

Violence will ensue and the traitors, as well as their tyrannical overlords, will be killed.

If you are baffled by this then you have lost your mind.

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## TheGrinch

> You misspelled "Led there by traitors like Massie."
> 
> 
> When, with the aid and comfort of pseudo-libertarian traitors, the immigration-restrictionists-are-wrong crowd win, there will be no stopping the political forces gutting the rest of the bill of rights.
> 
> Violence will ensue and the traitors, as well as their tyrannical overlords, will be killed.
> 
> If you are baffled by this then you have lost your mind.


Just when you think it can't get any better... :breaksoutpopcorn:

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## Occam's Banana

'Tis a brillig thread 'neath the Tumtum tree. O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!

We've got a jabowery!

Now we just need a Jubjub bird and a frumious Bandersnatch.

Somebody get the vorpal sword ...

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## steph3n

this thread should be retitled, welcome to the party fumbdront.com

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## fr33

Massie so far has a voting record like Ron Paul's. I definitely wouldn't call him a traitor. You should respect someone that is principled and does not cater to your pet issue if it violates his philosophy. We need more Massies.

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## jabowery

> Massie so far has a voting record like Ron Paul's. I definitely wouldn't call him a traitor. You should respect someone that is principled and does not cater to your pet issue if it violates his philosophy. We need more Massies.


And if guys like Massie can't clean up their act, then there is not hope at all.

That's why he needs a shot across the bow.

Immigration isn't just another issue.  It isn't like, say, abortion or drugs or right to work or anti-imperialism or monetary policy.  Immigration determines the outcome of future elections and the outcome of future elections renders attempts to restore the Constitution realistic or unrealistic.

At present, it is quite apparent to me that if you "libertarians" have your way you will render any future attempts to restore the Constitution unrealistic by virtue of the changed voting demography of the nation.

You had better live it up patting each other on the back now because before you know it you'll be stabbing each other in the back once your shallow veneer of principles are stripped away by the harsh consequences of your moral vanity.

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## GunnyFreedom

> And if guys like Massie can't clean up their act, then there is not hope at all.
> 
> That's why he needs a shot across the bow.
> 
> Immigration isn't just another issue.  It isn't like, say, abortion or drugs or right to work or anti-imperialism or monetary policy.  Immigration determines the outcome of future elections and the outcome of future elections renders attempts to restore the Constitution realistic or unrealistic.
> 
> At present, it is quite apparent to me that if you "libertarians" have your way you will render any future attempts to restore the Constitution unrealistic by virtue of the changed voting demography of the nation.
> 
> You had better live it up patting each other on the back now because before you know it you'll be stabbing each other in the back once your shallow veneer of principles are stripped away by the harsh consequences of your moral vanity.


You are a prime example of why our political movement goes nowhere while the criminal left and the criminal right continue to suck us right down into tyranny.  A pretty large portion of our movement has the same bizarre self-hating mental defect as you do, you just haplessly picked one of the few guys that almost everyone here agrees on to spew your self-immolating irrational pseudo-psychological vomit.

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## Natural Citizen

I don't know. I don't really care to get into personal philosophy. Massie doesn't particularly bother me because he has historically voted similar to the statesman. I'm bailing on this thread though. There are far better and more practical discussions on it in other places. We need more of our own youth prepared for a future technology based economy. They are ranked low on the totem pole right now relative to other countries but it's changing. Almost faster than society can blink. I know that's a tough one to chew on if one is reliant upon the historic meme regarding public education but it _is_ changing. To bring in foreign students is a permanant fix (technically a break) for what is essentially a passing phase handed down by the previous few generations of money changers and quick "fixers".

jabowery, there are some really good points buried in all of that bent up frustration. Some of which one has to look at differently in order to understand them. Generally scientifically literate people do tend to look at the world much differently. Just have to keep on flowing, I suppose. Like water.

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## Cowlesy

I think Massie's stance right now is perfectly fine.  If we could end the welfare state and have ironclad property rights, I could be convinced of an open borders policy.  Until then, I'm going to fall back on the common sense position that as long as you live in a wealthy country which can provide tons of free stuff, people will find a way to get here to abuse the country's generosity.  And certain individuals bring more value to the table than others, so we should try to get them here first, and work to restrict other individuals who just want to abuse the system.

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## Neil Desmond

Massie is not a traitor just because he's not being a bigot.

This thread is a joke; it is no longer part of, nor relevant to, a serious and mature discussion or conversation.

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## jabowery

> Massie is not a traitor just because he's not being a bigot.
> 
> This thread is a joke; it is no longer part of, nor relevant to, a serious and mature discussion or conversation.


Your avatar icon is apt.

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