# Lifestyles & Discussion > Personal Prosperity >  our bank accounts, 401ks, IRAs...

## The Freethinker

... With the MF Global debacle, including Gerard Celente's huge losses (and Celente is a sophisticated, experienced investor)...

... With the Sentinel ruling, and folks like Ann Barnhardt (who isn't unanimous amongst us fans of Ron Paul) saying nothing is safe anymore...

.... how many of you believe it is possible if not outright realistic, or even only a matter of time, before something major happens, such as:

1. nationalization of 401k and IRA accounts, which have always been private?
2. banks failing to the extent that all of our US Dollar-denominated checking, savings, money market savings, CDs accounts will be off-limits to us and that when they are returned to us, they'll be severely devalued (as it happened in Argentina in 2001)?

On other websites where people are like us here, including prepping/survivalist websites, the readers are so adamantly opposed to the system that many of them claim to have already cashed in their 401k and IRA accounts, paid penalties, and used the leftover money for gold, silver, firearms, ammunition, and other supplies. They also say they only keep a minimum constant balance in bank accounts (to pay bills, etc).

How many of you are doing what these preppers/survivalists have done?

----------


## ninepointfive

Even if this scenario in the OP doesn't come to pass  - If you haven't already done so - cash out your 401k's - most likely they are losing money, and if not at a loss - are devaluing because the amount of return is less than inflation.

----------


## DGambler

Is there anyway to invest in bitcoins in a 401k?

----------


## angelatc

> Even if this scenario in the OP doesn't come to pass  - If you haven't already done so - cash out your 401k's - most likely they are losing money, and if not at a loss - are devaluing because the amount of return is less than inflation.


Speak for yourself.  I'm up 35% for the year.

----------


## amy31416

My 401k has remained quite stable as well. The only reason I'll be taking money out of it next year is for investment which will save me a lot over time--masonry fireplace and a metal roof. The roof preserves my home, which is part of my retirement and the fireplace replaces expensive propane for heating and some cooking/baking--it also saves our asses if the electricity goes out in winter.

----------


## tttppp

> Even if this scenario in the OP doesn't come to pass  - If you haven't already done so - cash out your 401k's - most likely they are losing money, and if not at a loss - are devaluing because the amount of return is less than inflation.


Statistically the stock market has been a great investment for people who invested in the long term. Unless the entire world completely colapses, you have a very good chance of making money in the long term.

----------


## oyarde

I am not sure there ar many oppurtunities left for us , long term to make money that will keep up with rising costs .......... ?

----------


## ctiger2

> Speak for yourself.  I'm up 35% for the year.


Sure, but Gold was $1600 on Jan 1st. Today it's $1739. That's an 8% decrease in purchasing power of the USD your stocks are priced in. So 35% -8% NETs you 27% which still isn't bad but we're just getting started in this currency debasement game. Careful, careful...

----------


## tttppp

> I am not sure there ar many oppurtunities left for us , long term to make money that will keep up with rising costs .......... ?


The way things are now, it may be difficult to get the returns in the U.S. that we used to. However, it wouldn't be that difficult to prevent a collapse, provided our government didn't want us to collapse.

----------


## hazek

Who  is John Galt.

----------


## ninepointfive

well, glad to see some are doing well. Mine wasn't making anything

----------


## misean

> ... With the MF Global debacle, including Gerard Celente's huge losses (and Celente is a sophisticated, experienced investor)...
> 
> ... With the Sentinel ruling, and folks like Ann Barnhardt (who isn't unanimous amongst us fans of Ron Paul) saying nothing is safe anymore...



Gerald Celente is a sophisticated investor? Where can I find his returns?

You are in a bad spot in life if you think Ann Barnhardt has something valuable to say.

----------


## Zippyjuan

Accidental duplicate. Sorry.

----------


## Zippyjuan

My utility has been doing quite well- on top of the dividend they pay me each quarter (which I roll over at no cost into new shares since it is a DRIP stock- see Dividend ReInvestpent Plans for more info- cheapest way to invest).  

Let's say you empty out that 401k. How much do you lose then?  First, there is the ten percent penalty.  Then you have to pay taxes on the money you take out.  Let's say you had $10,000.  Take off the ten percent and you are down to $900.  Let's say also that you are in a 15% tax bracket (the money you take out counts as income for the year so you may actually end up in a higher tax bracket than you are now- a higher tax bracket will of course cost you even more money).  Your money which was $10,000 is now down to $7,650.  If you want to re-invest it into something else and get it back up to that $10,000, you need a return of thirty one (31) percent- just to break even. If you are worried that you MIGHT lose  money in that 401k, you just guaranteed that you WILL lose money.  

If you buy gold, according to the IRS, that is considered a "collectable" and any gains on that are taxed at a 25% rate.  If you buy gold at $1700 an ounce, it has to go above $2200 an ounce to get to "break even"- ignoring purchasing costs.   The tax will reduce your $10,000 by another $590 (25% on the $2,350 you made on the gold) so you need an even higher rate of return.  Just to get back to what you had in that IRA or 401k and were afraid of losing on.  Good luck with that.  And this assumes that in this time the investments in the 401k have a zero return.  If they go up at all, again you need EVEN MORE  gains to get back to where you would be if you left it as it was.

----------


## The Free Hornet

> Even if this scenario in the OP doesn't come to pass  - If you haven't already done so - cash out your 401k's - most likely they are losing money, and if not at a loss - are devaluing because the amount of return is less than inflation.


1) 50% of the accumulated value of my 401k is due to the _ongoing_ employer match.  Most is fully vested but I still do not want to lose that match.

2) Perhaps 25-30% of the accumulated value is due to deferred taxation.  Uncle Sam would love the extra tax dollars.  For now, both of us will keep our hands off that stash.

3) Talk to your plan and financial advisors about your options.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...7153805AAXD94W

I like this idea:




> *A Potential Strategy*
> One hypothetical strategy that is too risky to recommend is to buy a futures contract on gold that is equivalent to the amount of your 401K assets. Then if gold goes up during a crisis that might offset the damage caused that a crisis did to your 401k. But I do not recommend it because gold has behaved in an unreliable manner and could go down and if coupled with the extreme leverage of a futures contract then you could go bankrupt, so please dont do it.
> 
> www.figuide.com/how-to-protect-your-401k-from-a-u-s-government-default.html



As to total crash/anarchy/armageddon/mad max scenarios, I have zero preperations for any such things so where I'm invested doesn't matter except for the paper return.

----------


## oyarde

> My utility has been doing quite well- on top of the dividend they pay me each quarter (which I roll over at no cost into new shares since it is a DRIP stock- see Dividend ReInvestpent Plans for more info- cheapest way to invest).  
> 
> Let's say you empty out that 401k. How much do you lose then?  First, there is the ten percent penalty.  Then you have to pay taxes on the money you take out.  Let's say you had $10,000.  Take off the ten percent and you are down to $900.  Let's say also that you are in a 15% tax bracket (the money you take out counts as income for the year so you may actually end up in a higher tax bracket than you are now- a higher tax bracket will of course cost you even more money).  Your money which was $10,000 is now down to $7,650.  If you want to re-invest it into something else and get it back up to that $10,000, you need a return of thirty one (31) percent- just to break even. If you are worried that you MIGHT lose  money in that 401k, you just guaranteed that you WILL lose money.  
> 
> If you buy gold, according to the IRS, that is considered a "collectable" and any gains on that are taxed at a 25% rate.  If you buy gold at $1700 an ounce, it has to go above $2200 an ounce to get to "break even"- ignoring purchasing costs.   The tax will reduce your $10,000 by another $590 (25% on the $2,350 you made on the gold) so you need an even higher rate of return.  Just to get back to what you had in that IRA or 401k and were afraid of losing on.  Good luck with that.  And this assumes that in this time the investments in the 401k have a zero return.  If they go up at all, again you need EVEN MORE  gains to get back to where you would be if you left it as it was.


 Collectables,IRS, taxes ? what are those Zippy ??

----------


## QuickZ06

Wish we actually knew what the stock market was really doing..............


They sure do love to play games with us.

----------


## simon1911

Our family started a few years ago, actually during RP's 2007 campaign. We started small but it continues with a pace that we're comfortable with. The pace has steadily accelerate throughout the years. It started with just having some gold. It graduates with having long term food, firearms with practice to use it proficiently, ammos. I started Krav Maga this month.

Late last year/early this year, we semi-broke an IRA to pay down student loan debt and finish the basement. I justify this by thinking that most of that money was saved from when I was single. Now married, we have since have 3 kids and the tax rate is lower now despite the penalty. Besides, tax has to go up sooner than later. At this point, we're just saving cash but I too am torn on exactly where to keep the cash (bank, safe deposit box, under the mattress). At the moment, we're just sending them to 2 savings accounts on different banks to spread the risk. Half of the remaining IRA is in cash and silver. The next stage for us is to move out of the suburb to a more rural area but I'm not sure if we have enough time. Maybe in three years but 5 would be ideal. The goal is to keep the mortgage to an absolute minimum.

----------


## cubical

> My utility has been doing quite well- on top of the dividend they pay me each quarter (which I roll over at no cost into new shares since it is a DRIP stock- see Dividend ReInvestpent Plans for more info- cheapest way to invest).  
> 
> Let's say you empty out that 401k. How much do you lose then?  First, there is the ten percent penalty.  Then you have to pay taxes on the money you take out.  Let's say you had $10,000.  Take off the ten percent and you are down to $900.  Let's say also that you are in a 15% tax bracket (the money you take out counts as income for the year so you may actually end up in a higher tax bracket than you are now- a higher tax bracket will of course cost you even more money).  Your money which was $10,000 is now down to $7,650.  If you want to re-invest it into something else and get it back up to that $10,000, you need a return of thirty one (31) percent- just to break even. If you are worried that you MIGHT lose  money in that 401k, you just guaranteed that you WILL lose money.  
> 
> If you buy gold, according to the IRS, that is considered a "collectable" and any gains on that are taxed at a 25% rate.  If you buy gold at $1700 an ounce, it has to go above $2200 an ounce to get to "break even"- ignoring purchasing costs.   The tax will reduce your $10,000 by another $590 (25% on the $2,350 you made on the gold) so you need an even higher rate of return.  Just to get back to what you had in that IRA or 401k and were afraid of losing on.  Good luck with that.  And this assumes that in this time the investments in the 401k have a zero return.  If they go up at all, again you need EVEN MORE  gains to get back to where you would be if you left it as it was.


While I agree that taking money out of 401k or IRA simply because you think the government will seizes it is a dumb move. It is easy to transfer your IRA/401k to places that hold gold and silver for you. For example goldmoney and bullionvault.

----------


## angelatc

> Sure, but Gold was $1600 on Jan 1st. Today it's $1739. That's an 8% decrease in purchasing power of the USD your stocks are priced in. So 35% -8% NETs you 27% which still isn't bad but we're just getting started in this currency debasement game. Careful, careful...


But what if I bought gold when it was $900?

My eggs aren't all in one basket.  That's a very foolish approach to investing.

----------


## angelatc

> If you buy gold, according to the IRS, that is considered a "collectable" and any gains on that are taxed at a 25% rate.  If you buy gold at $1700 an ounce, it has to go above $2200 an ounce to get to "break even"- ignoring purchasing costs. .


Why would you ignore purchasing costs?

----------


## Revolution9

So I put in for a couple of years in 82-85. I made around 25K. I have no idea how much I paid because I was sure it was a ripoff to fuel the Wall St clownage houses and not to enrich me..just the same BS as a gazillion other contriibute for your own good guv progs. So..if it was contributed to way back and never touched or looked at can anything expect to have been accumulated? Trust me. I never counted on this $#@! for a moment to sustain a retirement. I have my art talents and do not plan on retiring..it sounds like dying to me.

So for conjecture, let's say I had 5K way back in 85 and never touched it. What is it today? 5K? More than..less than..can't touch it?

Rev9

----------


## The Freethinker

> You are in a bad spot in life if you think Ann Barnhardt has something valuable to say.


She did close her brokerage and she is aware of the Sentinel ruling. Whatever other questionable beliefs or statements the woman ha made, she did at one point run a brokerage, so she would most probably know something about how the markets operate. Have you ever run a brokerage firm?

----------


## The Freethinker

> Speak for yourself.  I'm up 35% for the year.


Nice. I'm up 20%.

----------


## The Freethinker

> My utility has been doing quite well- on top of the dividend they pay me each quarter (which I roll over at no cost into new shares since it is a DRIP stock- see Dividend ReInvestpent Plans for more info- cheapest way to invest).  
> 
> Let's say you empty out that 401k. How much do you lose then?  First, there is the ten percent penalty.  Then you have to pay taxes on the money you take out.  Let's say you had $10,000.  Take off the ten percent and you are down to $900.  Let's say also that you are in a 15% tax bracket (the money you take out counts as income for the year so you may actually end up in a higher tax bracket than you are now- a higher tax bracket will of course cost you even more money).  Your money which was $10,000 is now down to $7,650.  If you want to re-invest it into something else and get it back up to that $10,000, you need a return of thirty one (31) percent- just to break even. If you are worried that you MIGHT lose  money in that 401k, you just guaranteed that you WILL lose money.  
> 
> If you buy gold, according to the IRS, that is considered a "collectable" and any gains on that are taxed at a 25% rate.  If you buy gold at $1700 an ounce, it has to go above $2200 an ounce to get to "break even"- ignoring purchasing costs.   The tax will reduce your $10,000 by another $590 (25% on the $2,350 you made on the gold) so you need an even higher rate of return.  Just to get back to what you had in that IRA or 401k and were afraid of losing on.  Good luck with that.  And this assumes that in this time the investments in the 401k have a zero return.  If they go up at all, again you need EVEN MORE  gains to get back to where you would be if you left it as it was.


Thanks - a valuable reply, the sort I was hoping to read.

I will keep my 401k and Roth IRA for now. I don't put it beyond the powers that be to shaft us out of our retirement savings, but at least for the time being, I'll leave the money alone.

----------


## angelatc

> So I put in for a couple of years in 82-85. I made around 25K. I have no idea how much I paid because I was sure it was a ripoff to fuel the Wall St clownage houses and not to enrich me..just the same BS as a gazillion other contriibute for your own good guv progs. So..if it was contributed to way back and never touched or looked at can anything expect to have been accumulated? Trust me. I never counted on this $#@! for a moment to sustain a retirement. I have my art talents and do not plan on retiring..it sounds like dying to me.
> 
> So for conjecture, let's say I had 5K way back in 85 and never touched it. What is it today? 5K? More than..less than..can't touch it?
> 
> Rev9


That depends on what you have it invested in.  If you were working for Enron or K-Mart, I have bad news.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Why would you ignore purchasing costs?


For the sake of simplicity.  Adding them in means of course you need to get higher returns to cover those costs as well.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> While I agree that taking money out of 401k or IRA simply because you think the government will seizes it is a dumb move. It is easy to transfer your IRA/401k to places that hold gold and silver for you. For example goldmoney and bullionvault.


Yes, there are ways to have gold as part of an IRA or 401k. 




> 1) 50% of the accumulated value of my 401k is due to the ongoing employer match. Most is fully vested but I still do not want to lose that match.
> 
> 2) Perhaps 25-30% of the accumulated value is due to deferred taxation. Uncle Sam would love the extra tax dollars. For now, both of us will keep our hands off that stash.


A generous employer match like that (or any employer match) is a good reason to keep funding the IRA or 401k.  If you don't like the performance, see if they have alternative investments within the account (some have lots of choices, some offer little or none).  My employer offers no match for my 401k so I do my own IRA outside of them.

Be wary of investments which have had high rates of returns though- nothing goes up forever and if something is up a lot, it may be due to go back down again.

----------


## Bossobass

> My utility has been doing quite well- on top of the dividend they pay me each quarter (which I roll over at no cost into new shares since it is a DRIP stock- see Dividend ReInvestpent Plans for more info- cheapest way to invest).  
> 
> Let's say you empty out that 401k. How much do you lose then?  First, there is the ten percent penalty.  Then you have to pay taxes on the money you take out.  Let's say you had $10,000.  Take off the ten percent and you are down to $900.  Let's say also that you are in a 15% tax bracket (the money you take out counts as income for the year so you may actually end up in a higher tax bracket than you are now- a higher tax bracket will of course cost you even more money).  Your money which was $10,000 is now down to $7,650.  If you want to re-invest it into something else and get it back up to that $10,000, you need a return of thirty one (31) percent- just to break even. If you are worried that you MIGHT lose  money in that 401k, you just guaranteed that you WILL lose money.  
> 
> If you buy gold, according to the IRS, that is considered a "collectable" and any gains on that are taxed at a 25% rate.  If you buy gold at $1700 an ounce, it has to go above $2200 an ounce to get to "break even"- ignoring purchasing costs.   The tax will reduce your $10,000 by another $590 (25% on the $2,350 you made on the gold) so you need an even higher rate of return.  Just to get back to what you had in that IRA or 401k and were afraid of losing on.  Good luck with that.  And this assumes that in this time the investments in the 401k have a zero return.  If they go up at all, again you need EVEN MORE  gains to get back to where you would be if you left it as it was.


Honestly Zipster... WTF is this?

PMs are considered collectibles only if held more than 1 year. Ever heard of TRADING?

Your 10 grand in 2008, when all of the $#@! hit the fan, then down to $7650, would have bought 695 ASEs @ $11.

In 2009, sell the 695 Oz @ $18 for $12,500.

In 2010, buy 835 Oz @ $15.

In 2010, sell 835 Oz @ $30 for $25,000.

In 2011, buy 963 Oz @ $26.

In 2011, sell 963 Oz @ $48 for $46,200.

In 2011, buy 1,593 Oz @ $29.

In 2012, sell 1593 Oz @ $36 for $60,500.

In 2012, buy 2,327 Oz @ $26.

As of today, your $7650 is worth $77,950. More importantly, instead of some BS piece of paper that can be raided and some "there was a run on [fill in the blank] and trillions were lost before steps could be taken..." announcement made (no doubt an announcement you'll be here defending with your usual bad advice and pretzel logic), you have two thousand three hundred twenty seven American Silver Eagles in your grubby little hands.

And, no "collectibles" taxes applied.

And, this includes the HUGE assumption that you were smart enough to get your 401k the $#@! out of the market before it lost 70% in 2008.

----------

