# News & Current Events > Individual Rights Violations: Case Studies >  Can't build on my own land.

## Rael

I have a "friend" who inherited a piece of land, which is just over half an acre in size. The land is in a rural area. Well the county says they will not issue a permit to build ANYTHING, because the property is just a few hundred square feet below minimum county limits (even though its about 3 times the size of many suburban lots). They state that the county can't issue a zoning variance in this case.

So, basically, he owns this land and of course has to pay property taxes on it, although he essentially can't even use it.

I'm looking for some ideas to get around this. One possible option is to write letters to county commissioners for help, or maybe get a lawyer and sue or something.

Another option might be to find ways to utilize the land anyway. Examples might include living in a travel trailer on the property, keeping outbuildings on blocks to claim that they are "temporary" and not property additions.  Anyway lots of you folks are good at getting around government-maybe someone has some ideas?

----------


## tasteless

I remember reading about some guy, I think in Britain, who hid a mansion behind a pile of hay and it worked for several years before his neighbors outed him.

[edit]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...hay-bales.html

found it, he built a castle behind piles of hay lol

----------


## cindy25

how about buying the needed square feet from one of the neighboring properties (the extra land could be sold back after the building is constructed)

----------


## Travlyr

This stuff is coming down from U.N.'s Agenda 21 and must be fought at the county level. Contact your county commissioners, but expect much resistance. 




> Agenda21
> 
> Agenda 21 is a comprehensive plan of action to be taken globally, nationally and locally by organizations of the United Nations System, Governments, and Major Groups in every area in which human impacts on the environment.


We once installed a mobile home on a property because the county would allow a mobile home but they would not issue a building permit for a home. Then we remodeled the mobile home by completely deconstructing it from the inside and stick built the home without the permit. It was a lot of work and very inefficient but we were successful and it is still there. That was 20 years ago and I doubt that would work today.

----------


## ItsTime

Build the house underground.

On a serious note, do you guys have warrant articles in your town? Where you collect enough signatures for an issue, in this case building a house on your own land, then the town gets to vote on it?

----------


## kpitcher

I live in a rural area and there are certain size limits for building. However it depends on zoning. If it's Agriculture, or Ag / Res, you can do a lot more than strictly Residential. Ag you can do an amazing amount of things if it's required for farming.  

Since they say it can't be built I'd look at what rules your Ag zoning allows and then push for rezoning since you're going to take up farming. Farms need farm housing, barns to store equipment, etc...

----------


## johnrocks

If he lives where there is good dirt or pit run and a water table, dig it up and have a pond there, you not building anything, can sell the dirt and it might piss the authorities off...all wins.

----------


## nc4rp

find out the law. you would be surprised how much can be accomplished by using the rule of law. They cant "deny" it. do your research and learn the law word for word, back and foirth, inside and out. Your options will become apparent to you, where no one else has as much interest to thoroughly mull it over as your own self does, and your own creativity + the law = your options. 

you can leverage your own state law and also federal law in some cases when a local law conflicts, and the local law enforcement cant argue with it.

----------


## nc4rp

something else that might help, when you go to court, position your case so that you are directing your logic towards the appeal court, in this way you always plan for what the appeals court will say. That way the local judge will alway see that you have thought of things that if the local judge wants to be a dick, then he knows you have a winning case with an appeals court (based on the law) and the judge will know that he better rule in yoru favor or his judgement will be over turned.... judges dont like the idea of their judgement to be rendered null. they dont like that, so essentially your whole case has to reflect that you are ready to straight out the courtroom door and appeal, and that you knwo the appeals court will see that your case has merit under the law, and the judge will have to swallow his pride and render judgement in your favor else he will be looking like a fool. -- this may apply in yoru small town where the judge is in with teh locals and will interject his personality because "because he $#@!ing can".

----------


## ghengis86

> So, basically, he owns this land and of course has to pay property taxes on it


 does he really own his land?  Do any of us?

----------


## Meatwasp

You haven't seen anything yet Baby. Wait until they get you for disturbing a mud puddle. Wet lands.Those creepy elites want to destroy private property rights.

----------


## stuntman stoll

> does he really own his land?  Do any of us?


 Touche

F them.  Build a "mobile" or "temporary" building.  He can be creative with his building, he wouldn't have to deal with jackass inspectors, and he wouldn't have to ever pay property taxes for the building.

----------


## Teaser Rate

> This stuff is coming down from U.N.'s Agenda 21 and must be fought at the county level. Contact your county commissioners, but expect much resistance.


The idea that the UN is secretly dictating what municipal zoning boards can or can't approve is one of the silliest things I've ever read around here.

----------


## speciallyblend

> Build the house underground.
> 
> On a serious note, do you guys have warrant articles in your town? Where you collect enough signatures for an issue, in this case building a house on your own land, then the town gets to vote on it?


original

----------


## Travlyr

> The idea that the UN is secretly dictating what municipal zoning boards can or can't approve is one of the silliest things I've ever read around here.


Then you should read Agenda 21. It is in print.

----------


## pcosmar

> The idea that the UN is secretly dictating what municipal zoning boards can or can't approve is one of the silliest things I've ever read around here.


Really. You are flaunting your ignorance. Again.

http://www.themoralliberal.com/2011/...greenville-sc/



> Sustainable development was further defined at the 1992 U.N. Conference on Environment and Development in Rio de Janeiro with the adoption of Agenda 21 by delegates from 179 nations who attended the conference. George H.W. Bush signed the document.
> 
> When Greenville’s comprehensive was updated in 1994, very few people had even heard about Agenda 21, and had no awareness that eight of the nine plan elements closely matched the eight program elements set forth in Chapter 7 of Agenda 21. This match was no accident. *The Clinton administration created by Executive Order, the President’s Council on Sustainable Development expressly for the purpose of implementing Agenda 21 throughout the federal, state, and local governments – administratively. Tons of money was appropriated and distributed in the form of grants to local governments and non-government organizations, to promote “visioning” processes that led to the development of comprehensive land use plans.*


Also,
http://www.carrollcountytimes.com/ne...cc4c002e0.html

These are a couple references from a quick search. With very little digging you can find many more, and in virtually every state.

Once again Teaser, you are full of $#@!.

----------


## Napoleon's Shadow

If you can't do with it what you want, then do you really own it?

Research something called allodial title.

----------


## Danke

> Really. You are flaunting your ignorance. Again.
> 
> 
> Once again Teaser, you are full of $#@!.


How can you say that? He has a link in his signature to the Federal Reserve Bank of San Fransisco?  http://www.frbsf.org

He must know a lot about banking.

----------


## ghengis86

> If you can't do with it what you want, then do you really own it?
> 
> Research something called allodial title.


I think that's only possible in one or two states, if that. And only under speacial circumstances.

----------


## Danke

> I think that's only possible in one or two states, if that. And only under speacial circumstances.


It is written in our Minnesota Constitution.  But probably hard to get the bureaucrats to back down.




> Text of Section 15:
> *Lands Allodial*; Void Agricultural Leases
> All lands within the state are *allodial* and feudal tenures of every description with all their incidents are prohibited. Leases and grants of agricultural lands for a longer period than 21 years reserving rent or service of any kind shall be void.

----------


## USAF_Saylor

You may want to look into Patent Land:
http://www.teamlaw.org/PatentHowTo.htm

Please research it, but from my understanding this would allow you to do anything you want with the land without the county being able to lawfully limit its use.

----------


## Meatwasp

> You may want to look into Patent Land:
> http://www.teamlaw.org/PatentHowTo.htm
> 
> Please research it, but from my understanding this would allow you to do anything you want with the land without the county being able to lawfully limit its use.


I have patent land. Thanks for the info, will check into it.

----------


## VBRonPaulFan

make it a manure storage facility and refuse to shut it down until they give you a permit

----------


## pcosmar

Look him up. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Heemeyer

----------


## angelatc

> Another option might be to find ways to utilize the land anyway.


Rent it to a farmer.   Or make friends with the neighbors. They might have some ideas.

----------


## TruckinMike

> I have a "friend" who inherited a piece of land, which is just over half an acre in size. The land is in a rural area. Well the county says they will not issue a permit to build ANYTHING, because the property is just a few hundred square feet below minimum county limits (even though its about 3 times the size of many suburban lots). They state that the county can't issue a zoning variance in this case.
> 
> So, basically, he owns this land and of course has to pay property taxes on it, although he essentially can't even use it.
> 
> *I'm looking for some ideas to get around this.* One possible option is to write letters to county commissioners for help, or maybe get a lawyer and sue or something.
> 
> Another option might be to find ways to utilize the land anyway. Examples might include living in a travel trailer on the property, keeping outbuildings on blocks to claim that they are "temporary" and not property additions.  Anyway lots of you folks are good at getting around government-maybe someone has some ideas?


Don't build a permanent structure...



Put one or more of these^^ on it instead. A friend of mine is building one as we speak. But he has the trailer to go with it. Its truly mobile.

TMike

----------


## Rael

> I live in a rural area and there are certain size limits for building. However it depends on zoning. If it's Agriculture, or Ag / Res, you can do a lot more than strictly Residential. Ag you can do an amazing amount of things if it's required for farming.  
> 
> Since they say it can't be built I'd look at what rules your Ag zoning allows and then push for rezoning since you're going to take up farming. Farms need farm housing, barns to store equipment, etc...


Yep thw land is ag/res so no prpblwms there irs just an issuw of thw lot size

----------


## lynnf

raise hogs on the land instead and see if they like that better than your proposed
structure.

----------


## specsaregood

> Look him up. 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Heemeyer


Yeah, dude went all out:

excerpts:



> In places, the vehicle's armor was over one foot thick, consisting of concrete sandwiched between sheets of steel to make ad-hoc composite armor. This made the machine impervious to small arms fire and resistant to explosives; three external explosions and over 200 rounds of firearm ammunition fired at the bulldozer had no effect on it.
> 
> For visibility, the bulldozer was fitted with several video cameras linked to two monitors mounted on the vehicle's dashboard. The cameras were protected on the outside by 3-inch shields of bullet-resistant plastic.[1] Onboard fans and an air conditioner were used to keep Heemeyer cool while driving and compressed air nozzles were fitted to blow dust away from the video cameras. Food, water and life support were present in the almost airtight cabin.
> 
> Heemeyer had installed two rifles in firing ports on the inside of the bulldozer...
> 
> Further attempts to mount the bulldozer were hampered due to oil that Heemeyer had spread on the vehicle to hinder such attempts.
> 
> Heemeyer's body was subsequently removed by police with a crane, though it took twelve hours for them to cut through the hatch with an oxyacetylene cutting torch.

----------


## Rael

> Don't build a permanent structure...
> 
> 
> 
> Put one or more of these^^ on it instead. A friend of mine is building one as we speak. But he has the trailer to go with it. Its truly mobile.
> 
> TMike





Wow. do you have any more information about building those? looks like a neat idea

----------


## thrillhouse

You need to get a variance.  Its a pain in the a$$ that involves meticulously going through ordinances, getting a survey, showing hardship, notifying the neighbors and going before the planning board.

----------


## Rael

I met with an attorney who sat on the planning board. He advised me to apply for a variance. So you pay $500 and if the board of adjustment feels like it they might let me use the land. However, the city planner says the attorney is wrong, that no variance can be granted, and refused to take my variance application.

I left a message for the attorney and am waiting to hear back. Majorly pissed about the whole situation. I would think this would be up to the board of adjustment, not the city planner who is likely just a pencil pushing bureaucrat.

----------


## KCIndy

> I left a message for the attorney and am waiting to hear back. Majorly pissed about the whole situation. I would think this would be up to the board of adjustment, not the city planner who is likely just a pencil pushing bureaucrat.



Is "city planner" an elected position?

----------


## Dr.3D

Around here, they were charging $500 just to get an answer about putting up a wind turbine.   After researching the situation, one of my neighbors decided to just put it up and pay the fine.    It turned out the fine was less than $500.

----------


## hazek

> I have a "friend" who inherited a piece of land, which is just over half an acre in size. The land is in a rural area. Well the county says they will not issue a permit to build ANYTHING, because the property is just a few hundred square feet below minimum county limits (even though its about 3 times the size of many suburban lots). They state that the county can't issue a zoning variance in this case.
> 
> So, basically, he owns this land *and of course has to pay property taxes on it*, although he essentially can't even use it.
> 
> I'm looking for some ideas to get around this. One possible option is to write letters to county commissioners for help, or maybe get a lawyer and sue or something.
> 
> Another option might be to find ways to utilize the land anyway. Examples might include living in a travel trailer on the property, keeping outbuildings on blocks to claim that they are "temporary" and not property additions.  Anyway lots of you folks are good at getting around government-maybe someone has some ideas?


If he is paying rent in the form of property taxes then it's not really his land is it now?

----------


## Rael

> Is "city planner" an elected position?


I don't think so. Trying to find out more.

----------


## Razmear

You probably don't need a permit to build a fence around the property. Build a 12 foot tall fence first then build what you like, they'll probably never notice unless they got a warrant or helicopter so long as nothing is visible over the top of the fence.

----------


## ctb619

> You probably don't need a permit to build a fence around the property. Build a 12 foot tall fence first then build what you like, they'll probably never notice unless they got a warrant or helicopter so long as nothing is visible over the top of the fence.


Yeah, good luck with that (LINK). I'm not saying it could never work, but if Rael is already on their radar, a 12 foot fence is going to raise some suspicions.

----------


## Texan4Life

wow that stinks. is there any neighbors close by that would out you? if not chances are no one will notice. Out here if it is rural ag land you just build it. permits never crosses anyone's mind. The only people who bother with permits are construction companies.

----------


## VoluntaryAmerican

Build it anyways. Don't pay the fine. Do community service or Goto jail for awhile.

----------


## Danke

If you need a variance.  Then you need the support of your neighbors.  Time to suck up.

----------


## Brooklyn Red Leg

> Don't build a permanent structure...
> 
> 
> 
> Put one or more of these^^ on it instead. A friend of mine is building one as we speak. But he has the trailer to go with it. Its truly mobile.
> 
> TMike


Thats cool. Now, I think it would be a good idea to combine something like that (using an old cargo container) with building underground (or at least having the dirt piled on top to where its basically underground). From what little I've managed to read on the subject, you would save an assload on heating/cooling as your place would be perfectly insulated. The main problem is keeping moisture out (you would have to put down a concrete pad and would also likely have to entomb the entire structure in concrete to keep the roof from collapsing due to the weight). A 'green solution'.

----------


## ord33

Is it related to your town/county having a minimum square footage of the lot size in order to obtain a septic permit to build a house? I am assuming it isn't on city sewer?

----------


## KCIndy

> Is "city planner" an elected position?






> I don't think so. Trying to find out more.



Be sure to check.  If it is, be sure to let us all know when you run for the position next election!

----------


## Rael

> Is it related to your town/county having a minimum square footage of the lot size in order to obtain a septic permit to build a house? I am assuming it isn't on city sewer?


Yes the rule is that you have to have 30,000 square feet of land if you dont have city sewer. This land is about 1500 square feet short of that. Unfortunatly i had no control over the size of the land.  My relative gave several people pieces of his land when he died and he gave us all tracts of this size

----------


## Deborah K

What exactly are the consequences if he does it anyway?  Jail time?  Or a lean and fines?

----------


## AZ Libertarian

> does he really own his land?  Do any of us?


Only if you live in Texas, and have the 'allodial title' for it.  Seriously.

----------


## erowe1

> I have a "friend" who inherited a piece of land, which is just over half an acre in size. The land is in a rural area. Well the county says they will not issue a permit to build ANYTHING, because the property is just a few hundred square feet below minimum county limits (even though its about 3 times the size of many suburban lots). They state that the county can't issue a zoning variance in this case.
> 
> So, basically, he owns this land and of course has to pay property taxes on it, although he essentially can't even use it.
> 
> I'm looking for some ideas to get around this. One possible option is to write letters to county commissioners for help, or maybe get a lawyer and sue or something.
> 
> Another option might be to find ways to utilize the land anyway. Examples might include living in a travel trailer on the property, keeping outbuildings on blocks to claim that they are "temporary" and not property additions.  Anyway lots of you folks are good at getting around government-maybe someone has some ideas?


Are the property taxes a percent of the assessed value?

If so, shouldn't the limited usefulness of the land make that assessment really low? If that isn't currently factored in to the assessed value they're taxing, then it might be worth getting it reassessed.

----------


## erowe1

> What exactly are the consequences if he does it anyway?  Jail time?  Or a lean and fines?


That is a really good question. I think the county could demolish the building. But I'm not sure they actually would.

----------


## angelatc

> What exactly are the consequences if he does it anyway?  Jail time?  Or a lean and fines?


Didn't you go through some code violation nightmares relatively recently?  Worst case scenario they can and will make him tear it all down on top of all of the above.

----------


## angelatc

> Thats cool. Now, I think it would be a good idea to combine something like that (using an old cargo container) with building underground (or at least having the dirt piled on top to where its basically underground). From what little I've managed to read on the subject, you would save an assload on heating/cooling as your place would be perfectly insulated. The main problem is keeping moisture out (you would have to put down a concrete pad and would also likely have to entomb the entire structure in concrete to keep the roof from collapsing due to the weight). A 'green solution'.


I was reading the internet's one night, and saw a post from a guy who found one buried on his property.  He was planning on turning it into a grow room.

----------


## Deborah K

> Didn't you go through some code violation nightmares relatively recently?  Worst case scenario they can and will make him tear it all down on top of all of the above.


I did and it isn't over yet.  We got the code enforcement officer fired and we played a waiting game with them, which we're still playing.  Can't go into details yet, but when it's over, it'll be in my book and I'll share it here.  Bottom line is, you've got to find out just exactly what the law is and the penalty for violating it and then decide if that is the hill you want to die on.

----------


## Dr.3D

> I did and it isn't over yet.  We got the code enforcement officer fired and we played a waiting game with them, which we're still playing.  Can't go into details yet, but when it's over, it'll be in my book and I'll share it here.  Bottom line is, you've got to find out just exactly what the law is and the penalty for violating it and then decide if that is the hill you want to die on.


Like I mentioned earlier.   Around here, they were telling people they needed a permit to put up a wind turbine and charging a lot of money for the permit.   It took almost a year to get the permit and then you could finally put in your wind turbine.    

One person decided they would bypass all of that expensive time consuming crap and they just put up their wind turbine and see what happens.    Well, when it was found they had bypassed all of the bureaucracy and done what they wanted without it, they were fined much less than the cost of the permit.    I laughed at the situation and mentioned how the person had gone about it the correct way by doing that and one of the people on the planning board agreed with me.

----------


## Rael

Its usually not just a matter of a single fine. Oftentimes they will continue to fine you until the issue is corrected and if the fine is not paid they put a lien on the property.

----------

