# Lifestyles & Discussion > Freedom Living >  How are YOU preparing for socio-economic collapse?

## crushingstep7

I'm hoping this might be an insightful conversation.
Please don't be afraid to reveal your "secrets".  
Come on - we're all lovers of Liberty.

That being said, personally - I feel that having a source of food is very important, and I've started by storing rice and tuna ($1/can at my local Wegman's).  Other than that, I'm hoping I could start a large garden with stored seeds.  

Besides that, I have a shotgun with lots of cheap ammo (Winchester Super-X), and an old 20 guage with almost no ammo.  

Not the best plan.

Anyone have anything more elaborate?  Comments on the necessity of certain goods, knowledge etc.?

----------


## Cowlesy

I just read gunny's thread when I need a reminder.

----------


## Danke

You don't need to out run the bear...

----------


## crushingstep7

Are you talking about the one concerning rifles, etc?
Although that was a GREAT thread (and perhaps Sticky quality), I'm sort of going after a bigger picture...

or do you feel firearms are the most essential part of surviving socio-economic collapse?


And Danke, out run the bear? I'm lost, here...

----------


## crushingstep7

Haha nevermind, Danke.  Gotcha.

----------


## Bruehound

Get back soem of the money the government has taken without your consent and move to Louisiana where they will subsidize 80% of the cost of a solar PV system. For a 2 person household a 5kW system will be essentially a lifetime supply and your net cost will be around 4500. The ultimate defense against the coming energy inflation.

He who touches the inflation first, wins.

----------


## crushingstep7

> Get back soem of the money the government has taken without your consent and move to Louisiana where they will subsidize 80% of the cost of a solar PV system. For a 2 person household a 5kW system will be essentially a lifetime supply and your net cost will be around 4500. The ultimate defense against the coming energy inflation.
> 
> He who touches the inflation first, wins.




Ha, I could have $4500 in a couple years... but for now I have about 2k.  And like yourself, I've been looking at New Hampshire - as I'm very close, New York State to be exact.  

I appreciate the suggestion, though!

----------


## Bern

Your preparation plans will likely be different depending upon how severe and/or prolonged you expect the $#@! to be when TSHTF.  I found these pages insightful (and I bookmarked them):

http://ferfal.blogspot.com/2008/01/m...-few-days.html

http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=45774

http://the-moneychanger.com/commandments.phtml

You can *make your own solar/sun oven* pretty cheaply, but I bought *this one* when it was on sale for Christmas last year and I have zero buyers remorse about it.  I've cooked with it and it's really easy.  Works much better than I expected. 

I stayed home when hurricane Ike blew through our area.  We lived less than a week without power, groceries, utilities or basic services and it was rough.  Towards the end, when some gas stations and businesses were starting to open again, people were driving around like maniacs to find gas/ice.  People were very cordial and helpful if you met them face to face, but behind a windshield, something changes.

----------


## Acala

The problem I see with most patriot's preparations is an emphasis on hoarding.  That will be fine if trouble only lasts a few months.  But what if the economy is in shambles for ten or twenty years?  That is what I see coming.  Unless you are a millionaire who can fill a warehouse, no conceivable hoarding scheme will suffice.

Some needs can be met with a stash of supplies - guns and ammo, first aid, tools, etc.  But for continuing needs that cannot be met by hoarding - food, water, clothing etc. you need to find a way to replenish your supply.    That means you need to figure out ways to either produce your own food and water or provide something of value to barter for food and water.

My advice is to acquire the tools, skills, and materials you will need to participate in a localized, low-tech economy.  I also suggest figuring out how to harvest water and food from the environment.

----------


## roho76

I suggest learning how to grow food and tobacco or brew beer and make alcohol. You can buy everything else if you can manage to make those things from scratch. Basically make yourself profitable in the black market anywhere you go and be ready to be mobile.

----------


## Bruehound

Rather than take a low tech approach to food production, I would use the tech of solar powered hydroponics and better yet aquaponics so that you get a continuous harvest of fish as well.

Coffee grounds and organic scrap food feed your worm farm. Worm poop feeds your hydroponics. Hydroponics feeds you.

See....I always knew the world could run on coffee.

----------


## tmosley

Yup, I have a large number of seeds stored, which I plant and recycle each year (ie I harvest my seeds).  I also have contacts with several local farmers, and have standing contracts with them to preserve the leftovers from their farmer's markets for them in exchange for a cut of the goods.  In addition, I have spent some considerable time, effort, and money on building up a "compound" for myself and my family with secure and/or sustainable buildings.  Right now I'm building what amounts to an above-ground bunker--an apartment inside of a steel garage.  You'd need a Sherman tank or a 50 caliber rifle to break into that place.  After that is complete, I'm going to start construction on an Earthship nearby, which will be the sustainable portion.  Both buildings are basically immune to any type of weather or disaster short of a direct hit by a F3 or higher tornado (the Earthship should be good up through a F4, being a half-dugout with an ultra-heavy roof).

In addition, you need to secure access to electricity (not vital, but it will make your life a LOT easier), transportation, and communication.  If you have the space, I suggest planting crops that can be refined into biofuel and learn how to make it.  Stock up on the necessary ingredients (methanol and lye).  If you are in it for the LONG haul, you can learn how to distill methanol and how to make lye.

Personally, I think it would be easier to secure access to an all-electric vehicle and recharge it with your solar panels, or just get a horse (preferably two--then you get more free horses).

Also, composting toilets will save you a nightmare if your septic/sewer backs up after TSHTF.  They aren't cheap, but they are cheaper than a new septic system.  Your septic will last a lot longer if you only put liquids down there.  Without solid waste, you also have the option of installing a greywater system.

Another good thing to do is buy yourself a few big water barrels.  Use them to store food or water, but elevate them and put in spigot in the bottom, and you have yourself a nice solar shower.  A hot shower is just the thing after a hard day of work, and will make it a lot less likely that you get sick.

And, of course, hoard guns, ammo, and gold and silver.  Money is ALWAYS useful, and guns are ALWAYS good to have.

----------


## Icymudpuppy

I am better prepared than anyone else in my state to harvest small fur bearers and small game which will provide both food and barter goods in an economic collapse.

I have been practicing the skills necessary to preserve my food, make sourdough bread, brew alcohol, run diesels on biofuels, skin and tan hides, raise crops, and barter with neighbors for goods and services.  I'm getting really good at it.

----------


## Elwar

I have 3 chickens that currently produce more eggs than my wife and I can eat. We use feed right now, but in SHTF scenario they'd get lots of grass and fish.
I live on the gulf so I'd probably be joining the huge mass of fishermen getting their dinner from the sea. I'm actually going out tomorrow on a charter to find the good spots and to stock up for a few months worth of fish.
Since I can't build a well I started working on rainwater harvesting. I have a 250 gallon tank (which I'll probably up to 500 gallons). I still need gutters and piping/pumps to get those set up. I bought a water distiller to purify the water for drinking.
After I have water set up I'll probably get started with solar.

My wife's not all that into preparation, but fortunately she hates the water company enough to go along with my crazy water scheme...and she's sick of our high electric bills.

I also planted several fruit trees. Mango, orange, apple, lemon, cacao and miracle fruit. Also an all-spice tree and have on order a cherry tree.

Our garden is kinda small and we're still in the expiramenting stage of gardening.

I think drinkable water is key though.

----------


## anaconda

I'm trying to get my girlfriend to get out of the dollars and the stock market, and into hard assets or commodities.

----------


## Krugerrand

> I also planted several fruit trees. Mango, orange, apple, lemon, cacao and miracle fruit. Also an all-spice tree and have on order a cherry tree.


Did your mango end up making through the cold weather?

----------


## Elwar

> Did your mango end up making through the cold weather?


We're note sure...it's now a big twig plant with no leaves. 

I might just go buy a larger mango tree that's closer to bearing fruit to replace it if it's dead.

----------


## Acala

Lots of people really working on sustainable living.  That's good.

----------


## crushingstep7

Yeah, this is awesome!
Unfortunately, I'm severely short on funds compared to everyone else.  
I have $2300 coming in the mail sometime soon, but other than that I make about $700 a month. 

I was planning on buying a rifle and about 1,000 rds of ammo with the $2,300 - but I've been reconsidering lately.  I have no idea where to get started with any of this.  That being said, I do recognize that I'm not able to be _completely_ self-sufficient, and that the "hoarding" game plan wouldn't work out so well in the long run.  At the same time, I think there could be heavy conflict and civil unrest in the beginning of our economic collapse, and that a rifle and all that ammo could serve me well.  I guess.  

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I should allocate my limited funds?

----------


## Acala

> Yeah, this is awesome!
> Unfortunately, I'm severely short on funds compared to everyone else.  
> I have $2300 coming in the mail sometime soon, but other than that I make about $700 a month. 
> 
> I was planning on buying a rifle and about 1,000 rds of ammo with the $2,300 - but I've been reconsidering lately.  I have no idea where to get started with any of this.  That being said, I do recognize that I'm not able to be _completely_ self-sufficient, and that the "hoarding" game plan wouldn't work out so well in the long run.  At the same time, I think there could be heavy conflict and civil unrest in the beginning of our economic collapse, and that a rifle and all that ammo could serve me well.  I guess.  
> 
> Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I should allocate my limited funds?


I think a rifle and a couple hundred rounds of ammo is imperative.  Should also have a handgun so you can carry it concealed if you need out go out for food.

I don't know where you live, but if I lived in a heavy urban area and didn't have much of a stash of grub and such to anchor me, my plan "A" would be to bail out of the urban area totally and head to some place where there is more food and fewer people.

----------


## Elwar

> I think a rifle and a couple hundred rounds of ammo is imperative.  Should also have a handgun so you can carry it concealed if you need out go out for food.
> 
> I don't know where you live, but if I lived in a heavy urban area and didn't have much of a stash of grub and such to anchor me, my plan "A" would be to bail out of the urban area totally and head to some place where there is more food and fewer people.


I agree, those with limited funds in an urban area should be planning on a "head for the hills" approach. Get your Bug Out bag prepared, everything you need to survive in the wild, including a gun.

----------


## crushingstep7

I'm in Rochester, NY - we have a higher murder per capita rate than New York City!
I do have the bug out in mind, but I have a 1 month old daughter and I couldn't leave Momma Bear.  So I guess my chances are slim, here.  Sad times indeed, when good honest people are screwed by circumstances.

----------


## John Q. Revere

I got some breakin news for yall and there aint gonna be no collapse.  Ya know its all about money, and no one with money gonna let the world fall to $#@! so they can lose.

They will prop everything up as long as possible and prolong the agony for decades, 10+ yrs of stagflation.

And if people cant take it anymore, they will gladly come in and take over all means of production.

Those in power know if there is a collapse, there is a vacuum of power and a change in power.  They own the media, have the money to spin this as 10 years of "slow growth" while securing their own financial positions, transfer our money to their accounts.

We need an intervention, like an addict does.  Can't wait for rock bottom cause their wont be one.  Like an intervention, we create a "false bottom".

Let's say this is our bottom, this is our collapse and start NOW diggin out.

Dont get addicted to the idea of a collapse and reset cause the man aint gonna let that happen.

How do I know?  Cause that would have been my idea if i was chief cowboy in charge

----------


## tmosley

If you live in an urban area, I would probably get two handguns rather than a rifle.  Get a good 9mm and a .22.  The .22 will be easy for your missus to shoot, and the ammo is cheap as hell, so you can shoot it often.  After that, you need to have a bail out bag in order, as well as a stockpile of food and water in case you can't get out of town, or if things get bad and you find yourself poor (probably along with everyone else).  After that, just stockpile gold and silver as you can.  Even a few pre-64 quarters is better than nothing, and may well get you passage across the country, or buy food when you are starving.  I like to have only a small amount of gold for bribing border guards in case I need to leave the country (1oz per person should be more than adequate, but it should be in 1/4 oz coins), buy passage to Asia somewhere (about 1 oz each), and to start a new life (another 1-4 oz each).  You should be able to hold that entire amount in your hand.  That gold is your LAST RESORT.  Don't spend it or sell it.  You would be well served sealing it and a gun up in a pipe and burying it where it won't be found.  

After you have at least 1 oz of gold for each member of your family, start buying some silver as well.  Buy gold when gold is cheap compared to silver (VERY rare), and buy silver when it is cheap compared to gold (which is very much the case right now).

----------


## crushingstep7

John, who is this Chief Cowboy immune to the Law of Unintended Consequences? 

Tmosley - why the hell would I want to start a new life in Asia?  That's just random to me... lol!

----------


## Uriel999

I've started a BOB that has limited capabilities. Mostly just some first aid, a few glow sticks, some pistol and rifle ammo, a camel pack, change of clothes, tp, and duct tape. There are some other small things as well. 

I own a few firearms and have some ammo around. I keep 3 cases of water bottles around at a time, and have well water access as long as the power stays up (gotta work on but I have not got the parents on board with it yet). At my parents house there is a small generator, and the capability to store large amounts of gasoline. My family is always ready for a brief "shtf" because we live in florida where hurricanes are a regular nuisance.

----------


## DamianTV

One gun and one bullet.  You can have the gun once Im done.

----------


## JoshLowry

> One gun and one bullet.  You can have the gun once Im done.


Spineless way out.

----------


## crushingstep7

> One gun and one bullet.  You can have the gun once Im done.


I know it's easier to just end all the pain, but I don't think it would do much good for anyone.  Things are already tough - we all know that, but killing yourself if things get worse is _selfish_ and makes your immediate environment even more chaotic.    If you want to put the people who know and care about you through that, that's your prerogative - but know there are consequences for everything you do.  Eternal and otherwise.

----------


## Carson

Printing up Super dollars.

----------


## pcosmar

Sounds cliche, but it starts with mental attitude. You have to develop a survival attitude.
There are tons on educational materials online. Learn all you can.
Specifics will change due to terrain and circumstances. Stay flexible. Adapt.

And plan to get OUT of the urban areas. Visit them for commerce if you must, but get out. Cities will go to $#@! first and fast.

----------


## pacelli

I'm graduating beyond the fearful 'prepper' mindset.  I'm getting on the "green bandwagon" and focusing on 'sustainability'.  This year's gardening season will be the big experiment on de-hybridizing vegetables and trying to breed them into new open-pollinated varieties.

----------


## Icymudpuppy

> I'm graduating beyond the fearful 'prepper' mindset.  I'm getting on the "green bandwagon" and focusing on 'sustainability'.  This year's gardening season will be the big experiment on de-hybridizing vegetables and trying to breed them into new open-pollinated varieties.


Do you get any seed catalogs?

Get the seeds that say "Heirloom" variety.  Those are non-hybridized, breedable seed stock.

----------


## youngbuck

> I'm graduating beyond the fearful 'prepper' mindset.


That's a big step in the right direction.  Most 'preppers' never graduate.

----------


## pacelli

> Do you get any seed catalogs?
> 
> Get the seeds that say "Heirloom" variety.  Those are non-hybridized, breedable seed stock.


I get all of the seed catalogs, and I have a huge supply of heirloom seeds that are now in their second generation of breeding from their parents (I have their parents hybernating in an ammo can in my freezer).  After this season, they will be in their third generation.

I've found many of the heirloom and open-pollinated vegetables I've grown do not have the yields nor the disease resistant qualities that would allow someone to sustain themselves in a serious food crisis situation.  The hybrid vegetables do a great job in this area, but lack the ability to save the seeds due to their lack of genetic diversity.

I'm referring to a technique of cross-pollination that allows you to take all of the disease resistant qualities of hybrid vegetables and place those qualities in an open-pollinated "heirloom" variety, thus creating a new open-pollinated (breedable) vegetable seed stock that is highly disease resistant and the seeds can be saved.  Essentially taking a hybrid strain and introducing it into an open-pollinated strain that has an incredible amount of genetic diversity.  Bingo!  Best of both worlds.

----------


## Acala

> I got some breakin news for yall and there aint gonna be no collapse.  Ya know its all about money, and no one with money gonna let the world fall to $#@! so they can lose.
> 
> They will prop everything up as long as possible and prolong the agony for decades, 10+ yrs of stagflation.
> 
> And if people cant take it anymore, they will gladly come in and take over all means of production.
> 
> Those in power know if there is a collapse, there is a vacuum of power and a change in power.  They own the media, have the money to spin this as 10 years of "slow growth" while securing their own financial positions, transfer our money to their accounts.
> 
> We need an intervention, like an addict does.  Can't wait for rock bottom cause their wont be one.  Like an intervention, we create a "false bottom".
> ...



The guys in control can do a lot of things.  They can steal your wealth.  They can give your wealth to someone else.  They can create money out of thin air.  But there is one really critical thing they CANNOT do.  They cannot CREATE wealth.  And when the wealth runs out and the smoke clears, people are going to know.  And there will be nothing for the guys in control to pay their thugs with.  And that is when they are no longer in control.  Guys like Paulson and Geithner are powerful when they have their army of mercenaries backing them up.  But when they can't pay the wages of their mercenaries, they suddenly become just a couple scared apes hooting at the darkness.

----------


## crushingstep7

So, Pacelli - how would a person "graduate" from preppy to green bandwagon?  Where would a person start?

----------


## pacelli

> So, Pacelli - how would a person "graduate" from preppy to green bandwagon?  Where would a person start?


Well I don't know how everybody would do it.  I can only tell you how I did it.  The first thing that happened to me was a cognitive paradigm shift.  I just took a look around my "preps" i.e. shelves of canned & freeze dried food, and thought to myself, hell this is only going to last so long, and is getting really expensive.  So expensive, in fact, that if I keep going on this track, I'm going to put myself into an economic crisis.

The prepping community is generally based on the theory that stockpiling bullets, food, water, and other consumer goods is the way to prepare for that elusive term, "SHTF".  It can get quite expensive and you are dealing with the inevitable conclusion that these consumer goods will either run out or expire.  There seemed to me to be an over-emphasis on stockpiling and less attention paid to actual survival.  

Part of this paradigm shift involved my recognition that there was a time in America (and other cultures) where consumer goods were minimal if not non-existent.  Yet people survived.  At the same time one doesn't need to be a "My Side of the Mountain"-type running around in animal skins.  There's something in between.  I went back to the nuts & bolts of it all.  I transitioned from a "tactical" mindset into a "practical" one.

So I thought about the word that goes around the green subculture which is, "sustainability".  Then I started learning about permaculture, which is a big buzzword when you are part of the green bandwagon.  Bill Mollison is a permaculture author that I started reading.

I started learning about the practical things that these concepts were based on.  Hmm.. doing minimal work to have a 4-season food harvest.  Having that 4-season harvest without needing to buy seed every single year.  Sculpting the land so you don't have to depend on a water spigot, or so you don't have to look for animals to hunt.  Cooking without the use of a power outlet or propane.  Heating and air conditioning without power and without needing to buy things like solar panels or wind generators.  Keeping food cold and preserving it without refrigeration, dry ice, or coolers.  Learning how to repair and manufacture things like clothing and footwear.  All of these practical things sound pretty good to me, completely consistent with surviving, yet practically ignored by the prepping community.  

So I started with a paradigm shift.  Then I started learning about the way things used to be done.  Then I followed that with some practical behaviors that I never did before.  I stopped buying most consumer commodities and learned how to either do without them or make them myself.

----------


## Bern

> I started learning about the practical things that these concepts were based on.  Hmm.. doing minimal work to have a 4-season food harvest.  Having that 4-season harvest without needing to buy seed every single year.  Sculpting the land so you don't have to depend on a water spigot, or so you don't have to look for animals to hunt.  Cooking without the use of a power outlet or propane.  Heating and air conditioning without power and without needing to buy things like solar panels or wind generators.  Keeping food cold and preserving it without refrigeration, dry ice, or coolers.


Do you have any links/references for info along those lines?

----------


## XNavyNuke

> Do you have any links/references for info along those lines?


Mollison Interview (short)

Mollison Pamphlets (huge PDF)

XNN

----------


## Acala

> Well I don't know how everybody would do it.  I can only tell you how I did it.  The first thing that happened to me was a cognitive paradigm shift.  I just took a look around my "preps" i.e. shelves of canned & freeze dried food, and thought to myself, hell this is only going to last so long, and is getting really expensive.  So expensive, in fact, that if I keep going on this track, I'm going to put myself into an economic crisis.
> 
> The prepping community is generally based on the theory that stockpiling bullets, food, water, and other consumer goods is the way to prepare for that elusive term, "SHTF".  It can get quite expensive and you are dealing with the inevitable conclusion that these consumer goods will either run out or expire.  There seemed to me to be an over-emphasis on stockpiling and less attention paid to actual survival.  
> 
> Part of this paradigm shift involved my recognition that there was a time in America (and other cultures) where consumer goods were minimal if not non-existent.  Yet people survived.  At the same time one doesn't need to be a "My Side of the Mountain"-type running around in animal skins.  There's something in between.  I went back to the nuts & bolts of it all.  I transitioned from a "tactical" mindset into a "practical" one.
> 
> So I thought about the word that goes around the green subculture which is, "sustainability".  Then I started learning about permaculture, which is a big buzzword when you are part of the green bandwagon.  Bill Mollison is a permaculture author that I started reading.
> 
> I started learning about the practical things that these concepts were based on.  Hmm.. doing minimal work to have a 4-season food harvest.  Having that 4-season harvest without needing to buy seed every single year.  Sculpting the land so you don't have to depend on a water spigot, or so you don't have to look for animals to hunt.  Cooking without the use of a power outlet or propane.  Heating and air conditioning without power and without needing to buy things like solar panels or wind generators.  Keeping food cold and preserving it without refrigeration, dry ice, or coolers.  Learning how to repair and manufacture things like clothing and footwear.  All of these practical things sound pretty good to me, completely consistent with surviving, yet practically ignored by the prepping community.  
> ...


This^

After a similar change in my thinking, I started looking into what the natives did for food in this locality.  Found some good books on what plants the local natives ate and how they processed them.  Then I started trying to figure out what tools and materials I would need to make the harvesting and processing easier.  Then I started finding the plants and trying them out.  Next, I started modifying my yard to collect rainwater and then started planting the native food plants.  That is my current stage.  I figure that if I get good enough at harvesting and processing, I will have a surplus with which to trade.

----------


## amy31416

One of the most important things if the economy should collapse that is rarely mentioned: BOOKS.

Lots and lots of books. They are entertainment, they are education, they can be a lifeline. They can also be kindling in a pinch (the Harlequin Romance novels, especially.) They can be insulation from the cold. They can teach you anatomy, physics, communications, reloading, surgery, chemistry, dentistry and organization. They can be a makeshift coffee table. They can be bartered.

Highly recommended, especially used books.

----------


## Danke

> One of the most important things if the economy should collapse that is rarely mentioned: BOOKS.
> 
> Lots and lots of books. They are entertainment, they are education, they can be a lifeline. They can also be kindling in a pinch (the Harlequin Romance novels, especially.) They can be insulation from the cold. They can teach you anatomy, physics, communications, reloading, surgery, chemistry, dentistry and organization. They can be a makeshift coffee table. They can be bartered.
> 
> Highly recommended, especially used books.


Luckily there is as library two blocks away from me.  They have one of those no firearms signs too.

----------


## pacelli

> Do you have any links/references for info along those lines?





> Mollison Interview (short)
> 
> Mollison Pamphlets (huge PDF)
> 
> XNN


Thanks XNN, I'd also add:  http://www.permaculturecairns.com/

Videos are located halfway down the page.

Additionally, check out the book by Bill Mollison:  Introduction to Permaculture (Bill Mollison with Reny Mia Slay, Second Edition Printed in 2009).  The practical methods explained in detail in this book probably shaped my behavior more than any other source.  I don't sympathize with the political beliefs or "save the trees" mentality expressed in it, but I read between the lines and exploited the principles for my own needs.

As far as 4-season gardening (some theory but moreso practical hands-on information), read Eliot Coleman's book "Four Season Harvest".  He lives in Maine, so all of his stuff was developed with their growing climate in mind.



Also look into perennial gardening-

YouTube - Eric Toensmeier: Overview of his Perennial Garden




Another nice thing about getting on the "green bandwagon" is that it allows you to exploit their principles to give certain services the proverbial finger.  

For example, as George Gordon explains in the link below, one day he decided to stop having garbage, and stopped paying for 'mandatory' garbage pick up services.  This is a classic.  It is from the broadcast from 4/11/09, titled "Property: The Holy Grail" 7 of 7: 

http://library.georgegordon.com/audi...84/343g-32.mp3

----------


## amy31416

> Luckily there is as library two blocks away from me.  They have one of those no firearms signs too.


You can read?

----------


## Danke

> You can read?


I'm a speed reader.



One picture is worth a thousand words.

----------


## amy31416

> I'm a speed reader.
> 
> 
> 
> One picture is worth a thousand words.

----------


## pcosmar

> So, Pacelli - how would a person "graduate" from preppy to green bandwagon?  Where would a person start?


I bought a farm. (small farm. 20 acres)

"The way to Be, is to Do"

----------


## Old Ducker

When I was young, I spent a lot of time in the woods, backpacking.  I learned to recognize native edible plants, partly to simplfy what food I carried, mostly just trail mix, flour, salt, slab bacon and other dry goods.  Partly I learned from others and locals, but I got a lot of good information out of this book:

http://www.librarything.com/work/1465255

----------


## Deborah K

I think it's important to have several plans in place:

1. Dig in and network with your neighborhood - stock up, grow food.
2. Bug out to another location of like-minded survivors
3. Bug out to the hills - get a map of lakes and camping areas - you can hide near one 
4. Bug out on foot - if roads are blocked - have bags and camping gear ready

Rent the Jericho series and watch History Channel's: After Armageddon  for ideas.
Read about the Soviet Union collapse and Argentina.  Also read stories from survivors in recent wars in eastern europe.

----------


## crushingstep7

Great ideas here - glad to see they're being practiced.  I would agree without hesitation, that the "prep" mentality is near sighted at best.  We do depend on others at the moment, and networks of like minded individuals along with a stockpile for the roughest of times is ideal for me.  

Great discussion everyone! Let's keep it up!

----------


## Elwar

> Heating and air conditioning without power and without needing to buy things like solar panels or wind generators.


I've read one website that described an air conditioning plan of running pipes underground to circulate the air and cool it, is this what you're talking about for air conditioning without power?

----------


## pacelli

> I've read one website that described an air conditioning plan of running pipes underground to circulate the air and cool it, is this what you're talking about for air conditioning without power?


Yep, that's the basic concept.  You can get cooler air if you run those pipes along a stream, but under the frost line.  The intake should face in the direction of the prevailing winds, and should be equipped with a crude debris filter.

----------


## tmosley

In addition, one can make a refrigerator that runs on evaporating water, by taking a large clay pot and nesting it with a smaller clay pot, and filling the area between with sand.  Fill the sandy area with water and cover the smaller pot and you will find that it is 20-30 degrees cooler than the ambient temperature.  This works better the dryer the climate is.  If you live in a high humidity location, it won't work at all.

----------


## crushingstep7

What temperature would you need to store meats?

----------


## pcosmar

> What temperature would you need to store meats?


What kind of meats.
Cured hams?
Jerked beef?
Smoked fish?
Salt pork?

Root cellars were used for years. Ice packed in sawdust and stored underground will last through summer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_cellar

----------


## crushingstep7

Well, I was wondering how burgers or things like that could be lol

----------


## pcosmar

> Well, I was wondering how burgers or things like that could be lol


Fresh ground.


Meat stores well like this,

----------


## Krugerrand

Has anybody pursued dual-citizenship anywhere?  To me, that's one of the best insurance policies (and as mentioned before, enough gold to get there)

I looked into it once (a while back) but couldn't find any easy places to double up.

----------


## Elwar

> Has anybody pursued dual-citizenship anywhere?  To me, that's one of the best insurance policies (and as mentioned before, enough gold to get there)
> 
> I looked into it once (a while back) but couldn't find any easy places to double up.


I've looked into other countries...I believe Hong Kong is the freest but the lifestyle change is a bit too much for me.

I also started looking at other countries with no extradition policies with the US because I figured if it came down to me leaving the country...it would probably be because the government got out of hand. Though the countries with no extradition treaties tended to be countries that hate Americans...

----------


## Bern

> Has anybody pursued dual-citizenship anywhere?


Almost everyone in my family has dual citizenship.  I'm not sure that it is really going to help much in the case of an economic collapse though, because if/when the dollar collapses, it's going to cause economic devastation all over the world.  I'm not sure that other countries are going to be in any better condition.

----------


## earthship

http://www.earthship.com

An Earthship is a radically sustainable home made of recycled materials.

Electricity is from the sun with solar panels and wind with wind modules.
Water is caught on the roof from rain and snow melt.
Sewage is treated on site in interior and external botanical planters.
Heating and Cooling is from the sun and the earth.
Food is grown inside and outside.

----------


## catdd

I have a nice cabin on 8 acres with a natural spring, wildlife, and very fertile topsoil.
I also have a donkey that protects the livestock from coyotes.

----------


## Schmitto2121

I am only 19 years old and seem to be the only person in my family or within my close friends that actually realize what will soon take place. I personally dont believe that the economic collapse will take place before 2015 or so, therefore I am going to college and and going full time during the summer to get finished asap (luckily I entered college with 25 hours). If Ron Paul or Gary Johnson do not win in 2012, I am defenitely contemplating moving to somewhere like New Zealand before the economic collapse occurs. I think it is vital to move before the economic collapse occurs because once it does many countries may start refusing to accept American refugees. I know a couple of other people that I have met through YAL and CPAC around my same age that are looking at doing the same thing.

----------


## MN Patriot

> I am only 19 years old and seem to be the only person in my family or within my close friends that actually realize what will soon take place. I personally dont believe that the economic collapse will take place before 2015 or so, therefore I am going to college and and going full time during the summer to get finished asap (luckily I entered college with 25 hours). If Ron Paul or Gary Johnson do not win in 2012, I am defenitely contemplating moving to somewhere like New Zealand before the economic collapse occurs. I think it is vital to move before the economic collapse occurs because once it does many countries may start refusing to accept American refugees. I know a couple of other people that I have met through YAL and CPAC around my same age that are looking at doing the same thing.


I've heard it is pretty tough to get into New Zealand as a resident. Would be a great place to vacation. If you marry a resident you can get in much easier. 

Here is the advice I wish someone had given me when I was 19: I wouldn't be too concerned about economic collapses. They have been predicting one since I was 19 (about 30 years ago).  Our advanced industrial technology pretty much guarantees availability of vital goods, except in extreme natural disasters. Ultimately people look out for themselves, and bartering works as well now as it did thousands of years ago. The key is to have something of value to barter.

So learn something of value in college. How to run a business, how to design stuff, how to build stuff. Humanity degrees are worthless, unless you intend to work for the government. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Don't be obsessed with survival, focus on building your wealth, and having fun living.

There is plenty of open space in America. If I lived in the city, I would get a small camper. Find some place about 100+ miles away where you can camp (or squat if needed). Buy some land for a garden, small farm and livestock. Get a decent little diesel tractor. Have a sawmill. 

I bought my parent's farm where I grew up. Been fixing and gradually getting ready to move there in another 15 years of so. Sooner if needed, maybe later. It has a garden, some old tractors. Neighbor pastures his cows there, will have my own in a few years.

Rural life is so much different than the city or suburbs. I have neighbors here I have never met in the 15 years I've lived here. At the farm I have neighbors that I haven't seen for 15+ years, who lived miles away, but seems like yesterday that I've seen them last when we meet up again. Country folks take care of each other; almost a dog eat dog mindset in the city. 

The unknown challenges of the future may seem daunting, but our worst fears are greater than what eventually happens. We still have a strong culture of freedom in the USA, we just need to promote it more.

----------


## keepitlow

Besides peak oil, peak food, peak water, peak NG, peak uranium...here is a list of threats from SRT. You decide what may apply to you. 

...but bear in mind what my survival mentor says:  "to prepare for the unthinkable one must first think the unthinkable."


NATURAL THREATS

   Natural Disasters on and from the Earth
      Short Term and Regional
         -Severe Storms, Wind, Lightening
            -Hurricanes, Typhoons, Cyclones, Superstorms
            -Tornados         
         -Tsunami/Tidal Waves
         -Floods
         -Fires - Forest/Brush
         -Landslides
         -Sinkholes
         -Drought (Dust Bowl)
         -Earthquake
         -Volcano
         -Animal caused famine (ie. locusts)
         -Disease, Plague, Pandemics coming from nature (ie. bird flu)

      Long Term / Climate Change
         -Global Warming
            -Ice Caps Melting, Oceans rising
            -Ozone Loss/UV Damage
            -Gulf stream changes, climate shift
         -Global Cooling/Ice Age
         -Global Pole Shift

   Natural Disasters from Beyond the Earth and not caused by man
      -Asteroid or Comet Impact
      -Black Holes/Worm Holes
      -Solar Flares/Coronal Ejections/Gamma Burst
      -Alien Invasion, non-intelligent (Andromeda Strain, virus, bacteria)
      -Alien Invasion intelligent life (War of the Worlds Scenario)
      -Religious End of the World (Anti-Christ, Second Coming, etc.)

MAN MADE THREATS 
   Man-made Accidental Disasters
      -Nuclear Reactor Disaster
      -Chemical Disaster
      -Biological Disaster
      -Fires
      -Grid failures, failures in technology that bring down services
      -Climate change caused by mankind
      -Genetic Engineering gone wrong GMO fears
      -Nanobots gone wrong the gray goo, replicants, Blob scenario
      -Artificial computers smarter than man Cylons, Terminator

   Wars, Acts of Terrorism (Intentional Acts)
      -Nuclear weapons
      -Biological Weapons (small pox, anthrax, ricin, etc.)
      -Chemical Weapons (never gas, mustard gas etc.)
      -Conventional explosives/weapons  
      -Cyber attack attack by software control
          -Individual levels such as identity theft
          -"Fire sale" attacks which bring down the grid
      -EMP attack or anything that takes out electronic hardware, computers

   Government, Economic
      -Progressive Loss of Freedoms to Individuals
         -Big Brother fears, NAIS for humans, implanted micro-chips
      -Economic Collapse breakdowns, depression, hyper-inflation 
      -Social or Government Collapse/Revolution  
      -World socialism, World Government take over, World Dictator
            -Conspiracy theories coming true
            -Corporate controlled World

Here is a book list

The Alcohol Fuel Handbook / by Lynn Ellen Doxon.
by Doxon, Lynn Ellen

Art of Nothing
An excellent series of DVD's showcasing primitive skills:
http://www.hopspress.com/Videos/Art_of_Nothing.htm

Barnyard In Your Backyard 
edited by Gail Damerow

Basic Essentials. Edible Wild Plants & Useful Herbs 
by Meuninck, Jim

The Biodiesel Handbook 
by Gerhard Knothe

The Bread Builders:hearth loaves and masonry ovens
by Wing, Daniel

Breathe No Evil
Safe-Tek Publishers

Brown's Second Alcohol Fuel Cookbook. 
by Brown, Michael Halsey 

Build a Root Cellar & Storm Shelter
 by Hobson, Phyllis 

Bushcraft
by Mors Kochanski
Great reference on primitive wood skills.

The Can Opener Gourmet 
by Karr, Laura

The Citizen-Powered Energy Handbook: community solutions to a global crisis 
by Greg Pahl 
http://www.chelseagreen.com/2007/items/citizenpowered

The Coming Economic Collapse - how you can thrive when oil costs $200 a barrel
by Leeb, Stephen

The Complete Book of Dutch Oven Cooking
by Fears, J. Wayne

The Complete Book of Fire: building campfires for warmth, light, cooking, and survival
by Tilton, Buck

The Complete Book of Survival  
by Stahlberg, Rainer 
An outstanding all encompassing guide to the philosophy of surviving - Highly Recommended.

The Complete Guide to Edible Wild Plants
by Lyle, Katie Letcher

Country Wisdom & Know-how
Numerous authors and publishers...all contain worthwhile information.
http://www.amazon.com/Country-Wisdom.../dp/1579123686

Dancing at Armageddon: Survivalism and Chaos in Modern Times 
by Richard G. Mitchell Jr

Edible Wild plants
by Meuninck, James

Edible Wild Plants of Pennsylvania and Neighboring states 
by Medve, Richard J.

Edible and Medicinal Plants of the West 
Gregory L. Tilford
http://www.amazon.com/Edible-Medicin.../dp/0878423591

Emergency Preparedness. Awareness & Survival
DVD Apogee Communication, 2006 - Highly Recommended.
http://www.apogeevideo.com/emergency/emergency.htm

Farming for Self-sufficiency
by John and Sally Seymour 

Field Guide to Edible Wild Plants of Eastern and Central North America 
by Peterson, Lee.

First Aid for Dogs.
Various authors under related titles...First Aid for Cats...Horses...Pets....even Insects!

Four-Season Harvestrganic vegetables from your home garden all year long.
by Eliot Coleman 

Going Local: creating self-reliant communities in a global age 
by Shuman, Michael

Grit Magazine
http://www.grit.com/

Guns and Ammo Magazine

How to Dry Foods
by DeLong, Deanna.

Life after doomsday
 by Bruce D. Clayton

Magic of Wheat Cookery 
by Tyler, Lorraine Dilworth

Making Your Own Motor Fuel
by Fred Stetson 

Master list of survival books:
http://www.survivalcenter.com/bookbs.html

Mother Earth Magazine
Al back issues available on CD ROM for nominal cost from:
http://www.motherearthnews.com/

Natural Home Heating: the complete guide to renewable energy options 
by Pahl, Greg

Nutrition and well-being A to Z 
Delores C.S. James editor

The Omnivore's Dilemma 
www.michaelpollan.com/omnivore.php 

Pantry Cooking : quick and easy food storage recipes 
by Robins, Laura

PDR for Herbal Medicines
by Medical Economics

Peak Oil Survival: preparation for life after gridcrash
by McBay, Aric

Powerdown: options and actions for a post-carbon world 
by Heinberg, Richard

Primitive Living, Self-sufficiency, and Survival Skills : a field guide to primitive living skills 
by Elpel, Thomas J.

The Renewable Energy Handbook:a guide to rural independence, off-grid and sustainable living
by William H. Kemp

Root Cellaring : the simple no-processing way to store fruits and vegetables 
by Bubel, Nancy./Bubel, Mike

Seed to Seed: seed saving techniques for the vegetable gardener 
by Ashworth, Suzanne

Shelters, Shacks, and shanties: the classic guide to building wilderness shelters
by Beard, Daniel Carter

U.S. Army combat skills handbook / Department of the Army. 
Lyon's Press 

Zips, Pipes, And Pens: Arsenal Of Improvised Weapons 
by J. David Truby 


News sites to keep you up to date:

http://motherjones.com/

http://www.libertyaholic.com/

http://neithercorp.us/npress/

http://dailyreckoning.com/

http://reason.com/blog/

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

http://www.survivalblog.com/

http://www.thesurvivalpodcast.com/

http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/

http://www.counterpunch.org/

http://www.theoildrum.com/

http://www.americanthinker.com/

http://www.reuters.com/

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/index.shtml

http://ipsnorthamerica.net/index.php

http://www.alertnet.org/index.htm

http://trueslant.com/


Food related news sites:

http://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/

http://civileats.com/

http://www.fooducate.com/blog/

http://producepedia.com/

http://www.metrofarm.com/mf_Food_Chain_Radio.php.


Discussion forums:

http://www.doomers.us/forum2/

http://www.politicalforum.com/

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/

http://peakoil.com/forum.html

http://www.whenshtf.com/index.php 

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/ 

http://www.ar15.com/forums/board.html?b=10

http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/vb/index.php

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/index.php


Good luck,

----------


## keepitlow

> The problem I see with most patriot's preparations is an emphasis on hoarding.  That will be fine if trouble only lasts a few months.  But what if the economy is in shambles for ten or twenty years?  That is what I see coming.  Unless you are a millionaire who can fill a warehouse, no conceivable hoarding scheme will suffice.
> 
> Some needs can be met with a stash of supplies - guns and ammo, first aid, tools, etc.  But for continuing needs that cannot be met by hoarding - food, water, clothing etc. you need to find a way to replenish your supply.    That means you need to figure out ways to either produce your own food and water or provide something of value to barter for food and water.
> 
> My advice is to acquire the tools, skills, and materials you will need to participate in a localized, low-tech economy.  I also suggest figuring out how to harvest water and food from the environment.




Absolutely.

Hoarding food is not the same as being able to produce food. Growing food is essential to living in a post carbon world. So I would suggest anyone interested in survival seriously learn to grow and raise their own food as well as be master foragers if your local is conducive for foraging.

Here are few garden books to get you started:

Crockett's Victory Garden

The Self-sufficient Suburban Garden / BTW, Jeff Ball has many excellent DVD's on growing food, get em at your lib.

Gardening When It Counts: Growing Food in Hard Times 

Country Wisdom & Know-how

Farming for Self-sufficiency 

Four-Season Harvest

Backyard fruits and Berries

Successful Berry Growing

Growing Uncommon fruits 

Vegetable Growers Handbook

Backyard Orchardist

Seed to Seed

Pruning and Training

Secrets of Plant Propagation

Encyclopedia of Gardening

Backyard Food Production DVD

People Places and Plants DVD series. (A mix of flowers, trees and food. Got to dig through the 5 DVD's for the food production info.)

The time to start learning how to grow food was yesterday and the longer you wait the more behind you are.

Take growing fruit trees for instance - they take a few years to get established and produce some meaningful fruit. But many problems can occur during that time and the trees may have to be replaced before established which will add more time to the equation. And to top it off, many fruit trees are biennials...they produce fruit every other year! But if your just getting started you wont know this for a few years will you?

Even with vegetable gardening it may take a couple of seasons to learn the basics and produce quality and meaningful amounts of food to 'try' and live on. 

And I can tell you from experience, it is hard to live just on what you grow...especially if you live in the cold zones of the US where you have to grow in short seasons.

Panic is for those not prepared. We develop self confidence by mastering the skills needed to overcome any situation that arises to threaten our life

----------


## keepitlow

> One of the most important things if the economy should collapse that is rarely mentioned: BOOKS.
> 
> Lots and lots of books. They are entertainment, they are education, they can be a lifeline. They can also be kindling in a pinch (the Harlequin Romance novels, especially.) They can be insulation from the cold. They can teach you anatomy, physics, communications, reloading, surgery, chemistry, dentistry and organization. They can be a makeshift coffee table. They can be bartered.
> 
> Highly recommended, especially used books.


You know sewing needles, fishhooks and 22 LR can't be made easily at home

Having distilling equipment may come in handy for processing 'barter liquid'. 

We go through tons of seeds in a year and they would make good barter items and we get em for free in our food. Especially the high seeds yielding squashes and melons seeds.

----------


## keepitlow

> I got some breakin news for yall and there aint gonna be no collapse.  Ya know its all about money, and no one with money gonna let the world fall to $#@! so they can lose.
> 
> They will prop everything up as long as possible and prolong the agony for decades, 10+ yrs of stagflation.
> 
> And if people cant take it anymore, they will gladly come in and take over all means of production.
> 
> Those in power know if there is a collapse, there is a vacuum of power and a change in power.  They own the media, have the money to spin this as 10 years of "slow growth" while securing their own financial positions, transfer our money to their accounts.
> 
> We need an intervention, like an addict does.  Can't wait for rock bottom cause their wont be one.  Like an intervention, we create a "false bottom".
> ...



Don't know. they can't print up crude oil

Our world is upside down, when the right way to s sustainable future will bring our world down. The only thing to do to keep the Ponzi scheme going is to do just the opposite of prudent advice.

What would happen to our economy if we took the advice and did as this reworked 'victory' poster from WW II suggested?



What would happen is our country would COLLAPSE!

IT'S NOT THAT SIMPLE TO DO A 180...Without compulsive spending and conspicuous consumption funded by unaffordable debt, we would fail as a country. Since our economy if fueled 70% by the consumer, we must stay in debt and consume by any means necessary to keep the Ponzi scheme from collapsing. 

We must make shoddy products that self-destruct quickly - so new products are in constant demand to keep the workforce of drones working. All the while squandering natural resources, but we are increasing the business of the landfills. 

We must not grow our own food. We must buy poisonous food from chemical laden farms. Our concrete jungles could never hope to allow anything else from their inhabitants.



Would you rather eat an embalmed potato or a live potato? The store bought 'Green Giant' red potato vs home grown KB potato. Both stored for 7 months in my root cellar.

And we must squander fossil fuels as fast as possible to keep the economy booming. What would all the tourists traps from Las Vegas to Florida do without the travelers? And the multitude of business that depend on travel along the pilgrimage routes? 

On an a more global level, lets say everyone becomes voluntary simplicity and frugal squirrel devotees. We recycle, reuse, repair and just say NO to buying more crap. If we stop buying all the stuff that America imports from China - who keeps the 1.3 billion plus people in China from starving, so they do not go back to old ways of trying to take over the world? 

We can see we have created a time bomb. Even the highest level brainiac economists can't fix what ails us. 

Our whole system is based on an unsustainable model that will eventually collapse no matter how much money that is printed up by the Fed. (...they don't even need to print money nowadays, all that needs to be done to create billions is to magnetize a silicon chip!)

Tony Benn's take on things:

YouTube - Sicko - Chilling Excerpt by Tony Benn


Now, let's take a look at how our Ponzi schemed world was built...



 We can see the population was pretty steady over the centuries. People lived within natures boundaries. They grew their food, burned wood for fuel and ate the game and fish nature provided...until the age of fossil fuels. 

Whale oil or wood was the prevalent fuel up to that time. As whale oil was running out, coal and liquid coal (crude oil) came on board. Then petroleum / natural gas based fertilizers made cheap food possible. 

Fossil fuels allowed people to move from an agrarian from of life to an urbanized city lifestyle that removed all the hard and dirty work of growing and producing one's own food. Fossil fusels also made possible many areas of life extending improvements to humans. And people spread to all corners of the planet and flourished...but by an artificial and non sustainable means. 

What happens when something is running at an unsustainable pace? 

It must slow down to a sustainable pace - if it is to keep moving forward steadily and sustainably. 

It would be one thing if we all reverted back to rural living, burning trees for fuel and housing and living within our comfortable means allotted to us by nature, as our ancestors did back in the day. But seven billion people can't burn the trees!

When we live out of balance with natures intended means there is a price to pay to come back in balance with nature. And the price usually extracts pain from us in the adjustment process. Now renewable energy will replace some of fossil fuels benefit to mankind. But don't be under the delusion that they are a seamless and fungible replacement. There is NO replacement for crude

Even if we did find out how to burn water for energy, petrochemicals make up a large portion of crude's importance to mankind. Roughly 9% of every barrel of crude goes to petrochemical use. 

If we stopped burning crude this instant, we would still suck the wells dry, albeit not as quickly, just from petrochemical use. 

So even if we all stop driving, we will just be postponing the inevitable depletion of crude oil.

A partial list of products made from crude: 

Solvents Diesel Motor Oil Bearing Grease 
Ink Floor Wax Ballpoint Pens Football Cleats 
Upholstery Sweaters Boats Insecticides 
Bicycle Tires Sports Car Bodies Nail Polish Fishing lures 
Dresses Tires Golf Bags Perfumes 
Cassettes Dishwasher Tool Boxes Shoe Polish 
Motorcycle Helmet Caulking Petroleum Jelly Transparent Tape 
CD Player Faucet Washers Antiseptics Clothesline 
Curtains Food Preservatives Basketballs Soap 
Vitamin Capsules Antihistamines Purses Shoes 
Dashboards Cortisone Deodorant Footballs 
Putty Dyes Panty Hose Refrigerant 
Percolators Life Jackets Rubbing Alcohol Linings 
Skis TV Cabinets Shag Rugs Electrician's Tape 
Tool Racks Car Battery Cases Epoxy Paint 
Mops Slacks Insect Repellent Oil Filters 
Umbrellas Yarn Fertilizers Hair Coloring 
Roofing Toilet Seats Fishing Rods Lipstick 
Denture Adhesive Linoleum Ice Cube Trays Synthetic Rubber 
Speakers Plastic Wood Electric Blankets Glycerin 
Tennis Rackets Rubber Cement Fishing Boots Dice 
Nylon Rope Candles Trash Bags House Paint 
Water Pipes Hand Lotion Roller Skates Surf Boards 
Shampoo Wheels Paint Rollers Shower Curtains 
Guitar Strings Luggage Aspirin Safety Glasses 
Antifreeze Football Helmets Awnings Eyeglasses 
Clothes Toothbrushes Ice Chests Footballs 
Combs CD's Paint Brushes Detergents 
Vaporizers Balloons Sun Glasses Tents 
Heart Valves Crayons Parachutes Telephones 
Enamel Pillows Dishes Cameras 
Anesthetics Artificial Turf Artificial limbs Bandages 
Dentures Model Cars Folding Doors Hair Curlers 
Cold cream Movie film Soft Contact lenses Drinking Cups 
Fan Belts Car Enamel Shaving Cream Ammonia 
Refrigerators Golf Balls Toothpaste Gasoline 

From this list we can see that we are massively depend on crude for our non sustainable lifestyle. 

It has been estimated that for the earth to sustainably support its population without fossil fuels a 90% dieoff must occur. I don't know if that is the right figure, but I do know humans could not live as they do unless it was funded by artificial means via fossil fuels. 

http://dieoff.org/

So if this dieoff happens, of course there will be great amounts of pain in the world. But it is natures intended balancing act. 

It also reminds us that nature does not bow to humans - it is humans that always bow to nature. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrying_capacity

One last tidbit for you guys to chew on...

"Kaiser forecast that the yearly family premium for health insurance could reach $30,803.00 in ten years if the 8.7% annual increase of the previous 10 years were to continue."

http://www.kff.org/pullingittogether/091509_altman.cfm

And let's go out a further 10 years.  Now, the average premium is $70,939.00 per year at an 8.7% annual increase. 

http://www.amazon.com/Super-Size-Me-.../dp/B0002OXVBO

Highly recommended. Get it from your library.

----------


## keepitlow

> Sounds cliche, but it starts with mental attitude. You have to develop a survival attitude.
> There are tons on educational materials online. Learn all you can.
> Specifics will change due to terrain and circumstances. Stay flexible. Adapt.
> 
> And plan to get OUT of the urban areas. Visit them for commerce if you must, but get out. Cities will go to $#@! first and fast.


Yes, mind rules all.

We're doing something near to impossible, which is to predict the future. Tons of IF's, AND's and BUT's that could happen. We just don't know. 

As futurists we try to anticipate future events and the direction the world is headed in and as survivalists we try to prepare for those circumstances.

Whenever you are confused, always look at the trend. 

Things can go in 3 directions...get better...get worse...stay frozen.

This helps remove some of that confused or wishful thinking and can help settle the war raging on in your head.

But, this tool has to be used for the general US outlook to be effective. For instance say your a rich banker and you just got your bonus of 5,000,000 dollars which is 1,000,000 more than last year. The question does not apply to your life getting better. It applies to ALL of America. 

For no matter how rich one person gets, they still have to come outside once in a while to deal with the rest of the world. 

Anyone on this list can be prepared for a few weeks to a month without breathing hard and with little extra expenditure. Now if you got a family of 12 then maybe not so easy. But with me and my wife and part time live at home kid this is how it works

First never forget you can live for many weeks or a month or more without eating before you die, but water is not so forgiving as food. You need to drink every few days at the least, even in cool, weather. And in hot weather...you can't go long without water. 

If you got $6 you can get enough emergency water for a month...unless you happen to live in the desert in summertime. One 16 oz bottle a day will keep you going, just don't overexert. Keep some 5 gal containers around. 

Beer is also a source of liquid and nutrition. Have a case or two round. One bottle of beer is about 140 calories and it offer some nutrition since it is brewed from grains, malt and yeast.

http://www.eat-online.net/english/ha...any_habits.htm

We belong to Sam's club we buy our water in case lots of small 8 and 16 oz bottles I don't want to be bothered shopping, so I buy 5 to 7 cases to last me for a couple months. 

I am not hoarding water for emergency - yet I have water for emergency. Same with pasta sauce, flour, oatmeal, rice, beans, grains, powdered milk, soap, shampoo and the rest. 

Just learn to eat what food you bulk up on. And don't forget rotate your stock!

Sometimes we jump the gun with survival mania and do it in an unbalanced way.The way I work my survival preparedness is to do the footwork, prepare, educate and hold it on the back burner unless needed. Until that need, I just live life the best I can.

Without that mindset one cannot be at peace with life, as we are always looking for doom and gloom every day...every hour...every minute. And some survivalists seem to be disappointed if the don't get disaster!

This gives you your base. If things seem to be heading to code orange, step it up a notch. If code red is about to hit, implement your plan to the fullest. 

So you switch gears from being a short term survivalist to a longer term one as things deteriorate. 

One example. 

I usually stock 50 jars of pasta sauce, When it gets down to 20 - 30 jars I restock. If code orange set in this would go to 100 jars. If code red showed up it may be 150 jars. (code colors are my own example). 

Of course, sometimes code red+++ comes without any notice, then store shelves are all empty by the time you arrive. So you will have to balance all these concerns to your own satisfaction.

----------


## keepitlow

Forgot to mention John Q. Revere 

The boss isn't as optimistic as you are...

YouTube - Ron Paul's New Cryptic Warning (2010)

----------


## DamianTV

> I know it's easier to just end all the pain, but I don't think it would do much good for anyone.  Things are already tough - we all know that, but killing yourself if things get worse is _selfish_ and makes your immediate environment even more chaotic.    If you want to put the people who know and care about you through that, that's your prerogative - but know there are consequences for everything you do.  Eternal and otherwise.


No worries.  I cant afford a gun.  Guess I have to take the other chicken$#@! way out.  Starvation.

Thing is, I am totally unprepared.  I can barely afford to put gas in my car, and or eat at the same time.  A far cry from where I was at 5 years ago, great money, owned my own business, looking at buying a house, and all the money went back into the dying business that went belly up, and Im broke.  Financially, Emotionally, Spiritually, etc.  Im drained.  Im a dried up bloodless turnip.  Im exactly what they want me to be.  And all I see is the whole situation getting worse and worse and worse.  Honestly, I dont think Im gonna make it when the SHTF scenario becomes reality.

----------


## Carson

> One gun and one bullet.  You can have the gun once Im done.



Life is an incredible miracle that took brazillions of accidents to get us where we are today. 

Alive.

It is a very precious thing that should be clung to as long as you can.

If it did start with one cell organisms developing into two and so on it took a lot of luck getting to where we are today. 

Things are just getting started with our economic troubles. I think things will work out and I expect a lot of excitement while they do. It would be a shame to miss the party. Believe me. I lived through the sixties and seventies. We seem to be embarking on a wild ride.

----------


## amy31416

> Life is an incredible miracle that took brazillions of accidents to get us where we are today. 
> 
> Alive.
> 
> It is a very precious thing that should be clung to as long as you can.
> 
> If it did start with one cell organisms developing into two and so on it took a lot of luck getting to where we are today. 
> 
> Things are just getting started with our economic troubles. I think things will work out and I expect a lot of excitement while they do. It would be a shame to miss the party. Believe me. I lived through the sixties and seventies. We seem to be embarking on a wild ride.


I wish I could 5-star individual posts.

You are so right, and Damian...don't fret, don't despair...there is so much more to this world than we can comprehend.

----------


## Deborah K

> No worries.  I cant afford a gun.  Guess I have to take the other chicken$#@! way out.  Starvation.
> 
> Thing is, I am totally unprepared.  I can barely afford to put gas in my car, and or eat at the same time.  A far cry from where I was at 5 years ago, great money, owned my own business, looking at buying a house, and all the money went back into the dying business that went belly up, and Im broke.  Financially, Emotionally, Spiritually, etc.  Im drained.  Im a dried up bloodless turnip.  Im exactly what they want me to be.  And all I see is the whole situation getting worse and worse and worse.  Honestly, I dont think Im gonna make it when the SHTF scenario becomes reality.


We will take you in.  We will take everyone that we can.

----------


## Working Poor

Hey I don't have any money either but, I know how to grow food and medicine. I will help my buds anyway I can. fear not little flock...

----------


## Icymudpuppy

My 75 acres can provide for about 30 people easily.  We will need a good mechanic, a good machinist, a good tailor, a good tanner, a good weaver, and a good sawyer.  I have a glass blower already, enough farmers, a carpenter, and I am a hunter/trapper.

----------


## Ninja Homer

> No worries.  I cant afford a gun.  Guess I have to take the other chicken$#@! way out.  Starvation.
> 
> Thing is, I am totally unprepared.  I can barely afford to put gas in my car, and or eat at the same time.  A far cry from where I was at 5 years ago, great money, owned my own business, looking at buying a house, and all the money went back into the dying business that went belly up, and Im broke.  Financially, Emotionally, Spiritually, etc.  Im drained.  Im a dried up bloodless turnip.  Im exactly what they want me to be.  And all I see is the whole situation getting worse and worse and worse.  Honestly, I dont think Im gonna make it when the SHTF scenario becomes reality.


I hear you, and my situation isn't a whole lot better.  The same probably goes for a lot of people here.  You're alive, you have a computer, you have an internet connection, and there's an almost unlimited amount of stuff you could learn online.  In a SHTF scenario, your knowledge could be just as valuable, if not more valuable, than any supplies you could have stocked up on.  Learning how to survive and how to make stuff from available resources is a vital part of preparing.

Just a short list of stuff you could be learning now to prepare:
general survival skills
hunting/trapping
farming (organic farming in particular, since petroleum based fertilizers will be in short supply)
distilling alcohol (lots of uses besides just drinking, including fuel)
getting engines to run on alternative fuels, such as woodgas
food preservation
The list could go on and on... those are just some of the more immediate basics.

Find something that will always be useful that tweaks your interest and study it until you master it.  If you can provide essential goods or services that people need in a SHTF scenario, you'll be fine.  Not having money now isn't really a good excuse... you're already ahead of 99% of the population because you know what's happening to the dollar and what may be coming.  Who knows, it could turn into a career.

Cheer up a little... it's not the end of the world yet.  There's probably a 1000 people in this forum that would help you within their means if you were in a dire situation and asked for help.

----------


## keepitlow

> My 75 acres can provide for about 30 people easily.  We will need a good mechanic, a good machinist, a good tailor, a good tanner, a good weaver, and a good sawyer.  I have a glass blower already, enough farmers, a carpenter, and I am a hunter/trapper.


Very lucky to have all that land! 

Worth more than gold. 

For if you had the gold you would trade the gold to buy the land when the SHTF.

----------


## keepitlow

> I hear you, and my situation isn't a whole lot better.  The same probably goes for a lot of people here.  You're alive, you have a computer, you have an internet connection, and there's an almost unlimited amount of stuff you could learn online.  In a SHTF scenario, your knowledge could be just as valuable, if not more valuable, than any supplies you could have stocked up on.  Learning how to survive and how to make stuff from available resources is a vital part of preparing.
> 
> Just a short list of stuff you could be learning now to prepare:
> general survival skills
> hunting/trapping
> farming (organic farming in particular, since petroleum based fertilizers will be in short supply)
> distilling alcohol (lots of uses besides just drinking, including fuel)
> getting engines to run on alternative fuels, such as woodgas
> food preservation
> ...


Can't afford a gun?

You must be poor as hell. You can buy a used single shot shotgun for very little money.

----------


## keepitlow

> We will take you in.  We will take everyone that we can.


*That is very, very kind of you.*

But no matter how you slice it...

This...

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/v...6/popchart.gif

Is hard to fix without this:

http://dieoff.org/

On a note of selfishness from a survivalists point of view....

We cannot save others if we have 'not prepared' to save them.

It is a hard  fact of life that the Survivor must be Selfish in order to SURVIVE.

Just be authentic with what you do and you can be at peace with whatever the outcome is.

For one to be Successful at Survival understand the importance of all the 'S' words and how one's Success at Survival balances on the interaction of all the 'S' words and by practical application of a Successful Survival philosophy. 

And while we do need a modicum of Smarts to be a Successful Survivor...well, let me paraphrase the title of an old post I wrote called 'Academic Smarts are not the Same as Peace Smarts' so it is apropos here:

'Academic Smarts are not the Same as Survival Smarts.' 

Sure, I'd love to help and save everyone in our world that need help. 

But the realities of being a Successful Survivor are this.

To be Successful at Survival requires one to be Selfish as opposed to Selfless. 

It is impossible to be a Saint and Save everyone in the world that has not done their preparedness footwork to Supply their emergency needs. 

Just Sharing Some of your emergency Supplies with one other person may put your life in jeopardy.

So now there are two deaths as opposed to one.

But only you can judge how many lives your Supplies can maintain and your desires to be philanthropic can Support. 

Don't ever let another person tell you otherwise. The one's doing the browbeating are usually the one's that have done little in the area of preparedness.

But the concept of Sharing goes beyond just Sharing Supplies. It also encompasses Sharing our time and our energies - for Survival can be a full time job just to keep ourselves and our loved one's alive.  

We are all human and have limitations, so we can only Spread ourselves so thin before we Start to develop cracks in our health - whether it be mental health or physical health. 

The Successful Survivor must accept that the Self must come first. And while it is unfortunate that the foundation of that Success is based in Selfishness and not in philanthropy...that is what the reality of it is.

If we lived in a perfect dream world, then we could wipe out all these unfortunate and unforeseen circumstances that would cause one to have to prepare for possible disasters, upheavals and emergencies. 

But the cold hard facts are that the business of Survival is not always nice and pretty - but it is always rooted in putting the preservation of one's own life first.

This book gives goes into detail with this topic of 'Survival Philosophy'.

I highly recommended it...get it from your library

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Book-...6866051&sr=1-1

Mental preparedness and physical fitness are the foundations of all our Survival quests For the mind guides the body, but an unfit body is not able to respond to the minds guidance.

We become mentally prepared when we are able to use the 7 Skills to defeat the 7 Enemies of Life

The 7 Skills:

Fire Starting
Water Procurement
Shelter Building
Foraging for food
Signaling
First Aid
Self Defense


7 Enemies of Life:

Fear and anxiety
Cold and Heat
Thirst
Hunger
Boredom and Loneliness
Fatigue
Pain and Injury

So in essence, we develop Self confidence by mastering the Skills needed to overcome any Situation that arises to threaten our life.

Let me delve into the concept of Selfish versus Selfless actions a little more. I don't wish to promote the wrong view that being Selfish is the key to being happy and at peace. 

As the Taoists tell us...fleas come with the dog. And if one desires to be a Survivalist, then one must accept some fleas to come with the job.

Most humans have a natural desire to help those in need. It is part of their makeup. But we must accept that we have built our world on unsustainable means - a means built artificially on fossil fuel. 

And when we live out of balance with natures intended means there is a price to pay to come back in balance with nature. And the price usually extracts pain from us in the adjustment process. 

The world is in a death Spiral. It is just how we have built our world over the years. We can't blame any one person for this fact - we are all to blame. It would be one thing if we all reverted back to rural living, burning trees for fuel and housing and living within our comfortable means allotted to us by nature, as our ancestors did back in the day. 

But seven billion people can't burn the trees!

It has been estimated that for the earth to Sustainably Support its population without fossil fuels a 90% dieoff must occur. I don't know if that figure is right, but I do know humans could not live as they do unless it was funded by artificial means via fossil fuels. Our life on earth has been 'pumped up' via steroids and growth hormones a.k.a. crude oil.

So if this dieoff happens, of course there will be great amounts of pain in the world. But it is natures intended balancing act. It also reminds us that nature does not bow to humans - it is humans that always bow to nature. 

Will this dieoff occur? I don't know. Some genius may come to the rescue and find a way to burn water and we can keep consuming carefree. but there is still the question of petrochemical use. Irrespective of burning crude, petroleum is an irreplaceable component of many other products we consume.

http://www.ranken-energy.com/Product...0Petroleum.htm

Animals live within their intended balance with nature and it is only man that destroys his environment and has to pay the price through pain and Suffering from working against nature. 

This is why we humans need moral guidance or a moral conscience since they have a 'free will' of Sorts. If we did not have such a feature we would soon Self-destruct.

Actually it is like this.

We are free to do what we want -- but are not free to want what we want.

All our actions have consequences, and many of our actions produce consequences that end up destroying peace. (both ours and other's peace).

This is what separates us from the animals that run Solely on instinct.

Humans run by instinct as well as moral guidance. And what makes us a human is why we even have to discuss this question of helping others in the first place. 

This question of Sustainability is the key to helping one make the tough decision as to whether to help another out with their provisions or energies. 

If whatever you offer is available to you in unlimited amounts or amounts that would be hard to deplete, then one may not have to be so concerned with Sharing such bounty. (Although Sharing anything with desperate people also has the potential for Security problems irrespective of the question of Sustainability.) 

But whatever way you decide to proceed...be authentic and you can be at peace with your actions. 

The 'authenticity acid test' would ask the question; 'Would you do the same thing again knowing the outcome of your actions?'  

If you would not do it again, then your actions are not authentic, since you are not at peace with the outcome. 

Authenticity is the key to being at peace. For even if you or your loved ones must die early to gratify one's philanthropic desires, then one can be at peace with that outcome if one authentically puts philanthropy above personal Survival.

This all goes back to my quote on Thoreau and the subject of pride...where do we put our pride? 

Do we put our pride in helping others first and ourselves and our family Second? 

Or do we put our pride in Self preservation? 

...In the end you only have to please yourself with your actions...just be authentic with what you do and you can be at peace with whatever the outcome is.

The Survivalists Creed: "The well prepared are under no obligation to endanger their own survival to assist those who have refused, for whatever reasons, to provide for their own welfare!"

----------


## crushingstep7

> No worries.  I cant afford a gun.  Guess I have to take the other chicken$#@! way out.  Starvation.
> 
> Thing is, I am totally unprepared.  I can barely afford to put gas in my car, and or eat at the same time.  A far cry from where I was at 5 years ago, great money, owned my own business, looking at buying a house, and all the money went back into the dying business that went belly up, and Im broke.  Financially, Emotionally, Spiritually, etc.  Im drained.  Im a dried up bloodless turnip.  Im exactly what they want me to be.  And all I see is the whole situation getting worse and worse and worse.  Honestly, I dont think Im gonna make it when the SHTF scenario becomes reality.


None of us will make it.  Everyone dies at some point.
How you die and why you die is of importance.  
I don't know your circumstances, and I could be very mistaken in saying this - but I think everyone has the capacity to be at least somewhat prepared.  
If you do die of starvation or what have you, there's a whole lot more out there. 
And it seems you have possibilities with some of the members on the board if that's appropriate to your situation.

Everything will be ok in the end (if you want it to be).  Do what you can.

----------


## Ninja Homer

> Can't afford a gun?
> 
> You must be poor as hell. You can buy a used single shot shotgun for very little money.


Never said I couldn't afford a gun, and I don't know where you got that idea.   The skills I listed are more important than owning a gun, at least where and how I live.  Community is always better than being alone.  I don't currently own a gun, but with certain nearby relatives I'm not concerned about that.

----------


## Acala

> But the realities of being a Successful Survivor are this.
> 
> To be Successful at Survival requires one to be Selfish as opposed to Selfless. 
> 
> It is impossible to be a Saint and Save everyone in the world that has not done their preparedness footwork to Supply their emergency needs. 
> 
> Just Sharing Some of your emergency Supplies with one other person may put your life in jeopardy.



Respectfully, I believe you are incorrect.  In fact, I believe the opposite of what you say to be true.

If you think you can stand alone and live on your stash through the duration of a real economic catastrophe, I think you will fail.  Unless you are a millionaire with a warehouse and a security force to protect it, you will NOT be able to hoard enough food to survive.   

The people who will fare best are those who prepare to become part of a community.  Those who have a useful skill to provide their fellow man in trade will not just survive but thrive.  And those who are prepared to not just help themselves but help others survive will find happiness as well.

Human beings are social animals.  Living in a bunker eating MREs by yourself for the rest of your life is scarcely living at all.  Turning away starving children from your door will ruin you as a human being.  

If you think past the hoarding mentality to the point of having a plan for producing food, water, shoes, etc. for yourself, it is then but a small step to teaching others and HELPING others do the same.

You are thinking in terms of a zero-sum game in which every bite you give another comes out of your mouth.  This is ultimately a losing strategy for you and everyone else.  You need to think about how you can not only produce a bite for yourself but produce a bite for others and help others produce a bite for themselves.  We must think in terms of PRODUCTION, not hoarding.  Production leads to prosperity.  Hoarding, beyond the short term, leads to strife and ultimate failure. 

We need to think in terms of communities of people that help each other, trade with each other, defend each other, and enjoy companionship with each other.  That is what will be required for long-term survival.  And short-term survival is pointless without a long-term survival strategy.

----------


## Acala

> We will take you in.  We will take everyone that we can.


This warms my heart.  

You will be rewarded ten times over.

----------


## Acala

> We will take you in.  We will take everyone that we can.


If any of you live near me, I can show you how to harvest and prepare food from the local environment so you WILL NOT starve (as long as the sun shines and the rain falls).

----------


## Deborah K

> Respectfully, I believe you are incorrect.  In fact, I believe the opposite of what you say to be true.
> 
> If you think you can stand alone and live on your stash through the duration of a real economic catastrophe, I think you will fail.  Unless you are a millionaire with a warehouse and a security force to protect it, you will NOT be able to hoard enough food to survive.   
> 
> The people who will fare best are those who prepare to become part of a community.  Those who have a useful skill to provide their fellow man in trade will not just survive but thrive.  And those who are prepared to not just help themselves but help others survive will find happiness as well.
> 
> Human beings are social animals.  Living in a bunker eating MREs by yourself for the rest of your life is scarcely living at all.  Turning away starving children from your door will ruin you as a human being.  
> 
> If you think past the hoarding mentality to the point of having a plan for producing food, water, shoes, etc. for yourself, it is then but a small step to teaching others and HELPING others do the same.
> ...


This ^

----------


## MelissaWV

A skill missing from your seven is mobility.  If there are people out to get you, you need to know how to move, how to hide, how to travel, and make all those other things available to yourself no matter where you are, at multiple sites.

----------


## osan

> I'm hoping this might be an insightful conversation.
> Please don't be afraid to reveal your "secrets".  
> Come on - we're all lovers of Liberty.


If we go into full economic collapse, the only way most (and I mean MOST) people will live is if they form small communities, levering off of each others' knowledge.  If we hit political collapse, this becomes triply so.  If we go into social/cultural collapse, then IMO the number of people surviving more than a couple of years will be countable on my fingers and toes if I throw my nuts in for good measure.

Do not fool yourself on that point - cultural collapse will mean the end for 99.99% of everyone where this occurs.  Even Grizzly Adams needed civilization. I think preparation for social/cultural collapse is a waste of time, save to make sure you have at least one round of ammo for everyone in your family for mercy when the time comes.  I know that sounds very sad and horrible, but I think that is the fact of life in this scenario.

Anything short of social/cultural collapse can be survived and will be, barring crazy stuff like all out global nuclear/biological/chemical war.  The world is infested with remarkably stupid people these days, but that is only because they have the luxury of acting that way.  When the grim hand of cold reality sets itself upon those peoples' shoulders, they will have to make an immediate decision to wise up or die.  I believe most will choose to live.  They will likely bitch about it every step of the way for awhile, but in time reality will teach them lessons they never wanted to be party to.  When that day comes, there will no longer be any such thing as a "liberal", I can assure you that.

With a grain of good fortune, none of this bad stuff will come to pass.  I cannot say I am hopeful of it, but like stupidity, some modicum of hope springs eternal.

----------


## osan

> The problem I see with most patriot's preparations is an emphasis on hoarding.  That will be fine if trouble only lasts a few months.  But what if the economy is in shambles for ten or twenty years?  That is what I see coming.


BINGO





> Unless you are a millionaire who can fill a warehouse, no conceivable hoarding scheme will suffice.


Even then... the warehouse would have to be defended. =8^o





> Some needs can be met with a stash of supplies - guns and ammo, first aid, tools, etc.  But for continuing needs that cannot be met by hoarding - food, water, clothing etc. you need to find a way to replenish your supply.    That means you need to figure out ways to either produce your own food and water or provide something of value to barter for food and water.


If things turn out badly, community will be the ONLY hope of survival for nearly everyone in question.  Cooperation in defense, food, housing, medicine, and just about every other facet of life will be paramount.  Try surviving on your own for more than a couple of years without any help.  A small handful of people in the USA may be able to do it.  The rest would die.  I'm pretty self sufficient and I would not want to have to tough it out by myself.  Small communities will return to prominence.  I also believe that liberty mindedness will, too.




> My advice is to acquire the tools, skills, and materials you will need to participate in a localized, low-tech economy.  I also suggest figuring out how to harvest water and food from the environment.


Sage advice.  If you have no manual skills, I strongly suggest you acquire some.  While I am a computer professional, I put myself through college working in cabinet and machine shops.  I am a pretty well skilled pattern maker and have 30 years of blacksmithing and fabrication experience as well.  I learned all of this for two reasons - it all interests me and I have never trusted the foundations of this "modern" world enough to be fooled into believing it could never come undone.  In fact, since I was perhaps 14 I called into question the apparent insanity with which this world is proceeding.  Until the past 10 years I never really thought my suspicions held much merit.  That is now changed.

Learn to raise food.  Learn to kill and dress it.  Learn to cook it.  Learn how to drive a nail without the benefit of a nail gun.  learn to build a barn and fix broken machinery.  There is much to know and not much time, methinks, if you don't know any of it.  Community colleges have all kinds of classes in basic skills.  Go to the John Campbell Folk School in NC and take classes there - pricey, but the instruction tends to be top drawer.  Acquire hand tools that require no power and learn to use them.  These things will never be unprofitable.

Basic skills are more necessary and valuable than computer skills.

----------


## osan

> Since I can't build a well I started working on rainwater harvesting. I have a 250 gallon tank (which I'll probably up to 500 gallons). 
> 
> I think drinkable water is key though.


500 gallons won't cut the mustard.  5000 is more like it.  E.g., a few months ago we were looking at houses in WV and one place had no well, but a rain water system with 7200 gallon storage.  It "almost" never ran out.  Be careful on what you hang your lives on, that's all.

----------


## osan

> My 75 acres can provide for about 30 people easily.  We will need a good mechanic, a good machinist, a good tailor, a good tanner, a good weaver, and a good sawyer.  I have a glass blower already, enough farmers, a carpenter, and I am a hunter/trapper.


30 people?  Are you serious?  If you have 75 tillable acres, you should be able to indefinitely support at least 500.  That is a lot of ground.  We just moved off our 100 onto 13 and we should be able to support the entire mountain on what we can grow here.  I am thinking orchards or apples, cherries, pears, raspberries, blackberries, blueberries, currants, walnuts, pecans, almonds, hazelnuts.  The rest in veggies, maybe an acre of wheat/rye/oats, and a huge herb garden.  An acre of corn.

Till 1/10 acre and a household of 2 will be giving the food away for not knowing what else to do with it.  But let us be conservative and say you can feed 10 people per acre.  With rotation, you are still looking at 375 people EASILY.

If I ever have a job again (looking doubtful at this point), there is 75 acres in Newton WV I have eyes on.  About 45 tillable.

Try to put up a greenhouse.

----------


## osan

> No worries.  I cant afford a gun.  Guess I have to take the other chicken$#@! way out.  Starvation.


Find a way.  That or give up and die.  I may be wrong but I'd be willing to bet the dying part won't be so attractive when the choice is upon you like a shadow.




> Thing is, I am totally unprepared.  I can barely afford to put gas in my car, and or eat at the same time.  A far cry from where I was at 5 years ago, great money, owned my own business, looking at buying a house, and all the money went back into the dying business that went belly up, and Im broke.  Financially, Emotionally, Spiritually, etc.  Im drained.  Im a dried up bloodless turnip.  Im exactly what they want me to be.  And all I see is the whole situation getting worse and worse and worse.  Honestly, I dont think Im gonna make it when the SHTF scenario becomes reality.


Get a job.  Any job.  Become a prostitute... I dunno... don't just give up.

----------


## Elwar

> 500 gallons won't cut the mustard.  5000 is more like it.  E.g., a few months ago we were looking at houses in WV and one place had no well, but a rain water system with 7200 gallon storage.  It "almost" never ran out.  Be careful on what you hang your lives on, that's all.


Ya, I know that 500 gallons wouldn't give us our daily showers and clothes/dish washing.

I'm looking more at survivability. It rains a lot here in Florida so I think the longest we'd have to go on 500 gallons would be a couple of weeks in a dry summer.

The rest I would work toward using dehumidifiers or water distiller for the salt water from the gulf.

----------


## moostraks

> No worries.  I cant afford a gun.  Guess I have to take the other chicken$#@! way out.  Starvation.
> 
> Thing is, I am totally unprepared.  I can barely afford to put gas in my car, and or eat at the same time.  A far cry from where I was at 5 years ago, great money, owned my own business, looking at buying a house, and all the money went back into the dying business that went belly up, and Im broke.  Financially, Emotionally, Spiritually, etc.  Im drained.  Im a dried up bloodless turnip.  Im exactly what they want me to be.  And all I see is the whole situation getting worse and worse and worse.  Honestly, I dont think Im gonna make it when the SHTF scenario becomes reality.


This really breaks my heart. I am sorry you find yourself in this position. We lost everything too but were lucky how it went down in the end. Wish I could hep you out if for nothing else more than moral support.

If you make yourself a wealth of survival knowledge now through utilizing the library system at least it doesn't cost you anything now and might make you feel better about your circumstances. You will be storing up something valuable for a worst case scenario.

Quite frankly your shtf scenario is _now_ so what better time to practice survival skills then when you are down and out? Best thing is you have the internets at your disposal so you can save the fortune I have frittered away on books and learn the same thing!

----------


## crushingstep7

Hey, so guys!
I found someone here in NY that's willing (I think) to finance property for me even though I'm only 19 and have no credit.  I'll be contacting a lawyer for the paperwork...

anyway lol
Do you all think it would be smart to start making payments on a 26 or 60 acre (35k or 60k) right now?  I'm concerned that I could be spending that money on more valuable commodities in the mean time... just in case things do collapse in on themselves and I have no rights to the property whatsoever.

----------


## JCF

Not sure if anyone has posted but:

1-year Food Supply For 1 Person
5,011 Total Servings
84 #10 Cans

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product...rodid=11487214

 1 year of food for $800 
---

 Joining the military to learn some "skills". I want to get a mechanic-like job in the Marines which I also think will help. While in I will read books about self sufficient living, hunting, farming, skinning, fishing etc. I'll also be buying guns and ammo of course, maybe some nice knives and other survival gear.

 I plan to move somewhere fairly "rural", here in Southern California my only option is Big Bear, I may move up to Oregon which isn't bad in some areas. My aunt may be giving me some land, about 1 acre in Alaska... I doubt I will move there though, I'm too close to my family.

 I may invest in certain things that if there was a collapse would be of high value, but I'm not sure what exactly; but to be honest I'd do this stuff even if I wasn't worried about anything happening to the country since I've always wanted to be more self sufficient.

---

 If anyone's interested here's a cool guy on youtube who does reviews for all kinds of things. Guns, knives, gloves, backpacks, boots etc... All wilderness related. He also goes out camping and tests knives.

 Very informative, hundreds of videos most being 20-30minutes in length :

http://www.youtube.com/user/nutnfancy?blend=1&ob=4

 He's also pro 2nd amendment, other than that he's not very political.

----------


## crushingstep7

$800 for a year?  Damn... I need to look at the nutritional content of that stuff lol  Sounds fishy..

And yeah, I think *everyone* has heard of NutnFancy.  Liked his Sheepdog vids a lot.

EDIT: Ohhh, just one person.  Ok.  Makes sense.

----------


## Krugerrand

> Not sure if anyone has posted but:
> 
> 1-year Food Supply For 1 Person
> 5,011 Total Servings
> 84 #10 Cans
> 
> http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product...rodid=11487214
> 
>  1 year of food for $800


I didn't look too closely ... but two cans of sugar sure doesn't sound like a years supply to me.

----------


## Elwar

> Hey, so guys!
> I found someone here in NY that's willing (I think) to finance property for me even though I'm only 19 and have no credit.  I'll be contacting a lawyer for the paperwork...
> 
> anyway lol
> Do you all think it would be smart to start making payments on a 26 or 60 acre (35k or 60k) right now?  I'm concerned that I could be spending that money on more valuable commodities in the mean time... just in case things do collapse in on themselves and I have no rights to the property whatsoever.


Be sure it's something you can put 20% down on and keep your monthly payments to less than 25% of your monthly take home pay on a 15 year loan.

http://www.daveramsey.com/article/ho...ey_realestate/

----------


## MelissaWV

If you're making payments on it, it's not yours.

----------


## osan

> Yeah, this is awesome!
> 
> I was planning on buying a rifle and about 1,000 rds of ammo with the $2,300


Don't be foolish with your funds.  If you are that strapped, go find a good, old, inexpensive 22 rifle.  I know where you can get a 1940s vintage Mossberg 41M in 22, semi-auto for $250.  This is a bit high priced, but the gun and 4 more like it are in very good shape.  Then, go buy 10,000 rounds of *good* ammunition like Fiocchi.  Do _not_ buy Remington ammunition.  It is the worst and it is UNRELIABLE, which is as bad as having no ammo to speak of.

I picked up an old Stevens Model 34 for $90.  I reworked the stock to my specs and can drive tacks anywhere under 100 yards, which is all I am likely to need.  Yes, I have my larger toys and several handguns, but the 22 is probably the most valuable weapon I own in terms of ultimate practicality.

Unless you are expecting to have to fight off large gangs of roving criminals, you will not require the services of a long distance rifle.  And if you do, chances are you will be killed long before you ever get to make much use of it.  Them's just the averages for Johnny Q. in such situations.  Barring this, your biggest concern will be feeding yourself, which a good 22 rifle will help you with most admirably.

----------


## crushingstep7

> I didn't look too closely ... but two cans of sugar sure doesn't sound like a years supply to me.


And _this_ is why I just store bulk/wholesale dried foods myself... people are always tryin' to rip you off!





> If you're making payments on it, it's not yours.


Totally true.  But I figure if sh*t REALLY hits the fan, I would at least have some claim to the land... maybe? Haha
In any case, paying property taxes is, in essence, making payments to the State.. so you really don't own any property - including your car, your children, etc.  You have the privilege of managing those things.  But anyway.

I figure I would at least have a place to go, depending on the attitude of the creditor during a "SHTF scenario".  Whatever that might be.

*And Elwar*, solid advice.  I'll have to look into what I'm capable of doing.  Thanks!

----------


## crushingstep7

> Don't be foolish with your funds.  If you are that strapped, go find a good, old, inexpensive 22 rifle.  I know where you can get a 1940s vintage Mossberg 41M in 22, semi-auto for $250.  This is a bit high priced, but the gun and 4 more like it are in very good shape.  Then, go buy 10,000 rounds of *good* ammunition like Fiocchi.  Do _not_ buy Remington ammunition.  It is the worst and it is UNRELIABLE, which is as bad as having no ammo to speak of.
> 
> I picked up an old Stevens Model 34 for $90.  I reworked the stock to my specs and can drive tacks anywhere under 100 yards, which is all I am likely to need.  Yes, I have my larger toys and several handguns, but the 22 is probably the most valuable weapon I own in terms of ultimate practicality.
> 
> Unless you are expecting to have to fight off large gangs of roving criminals, you will not require the services of a long distance rifle.  And if you do, chances are you will be killed long before you ever get to make much use of it.  Them's just the averages for Johnny Q. in such situations.  Barring this, your biggest concern will be feeding yourself, which a good 22 rifle will help you with most admirably.



Well, too late for foolishness! haha
I already have my Scout, and I _think_ it was a good investment... 
I bought a Ruger 10/22 a while back, and I'm up to about 1,000 rounds of .22.   
I agree %100 that a .22 is a do-or-die necessity.  

And yes, I kind of do expect to fight off large gangs of roving criminals/looters.. _assuming_ I can get out of the shallow mass grave that I grew up in - and have a rural area to go without being bothered.  If I can't get out of the city, yes - I'll die via starvation or murder or some other atrocity.  But all is well; God is great.

Thank you for the input once again, Osan.

----------


## osan

> I got some breakin news for yall and there aint gonna be no collapse.  Ya know its all about money, and no one with money gonna let the world fall to $#@! so they can lose.


Some news for you: nobody knows for certain what is going to happen.  Collapse may not be intended... or it may be.  Either way, it could come.  I doubt with severity that you are privy to the intentions and capabilities of those who toss the dice with the world.




> They will prop everything up as long as possible and prolong the agony for decades, 10+ yrs of stagflation.


Now here we agree.  But we still have no idea for sure how it will all turn out.




> And if people cant take it anymore, they will gladly come in and take over all means of production.


Presuming that they would be able to or that people would allow it.  These are very big presumptions and are anything but proven true.




> Those in power know if there is a collapse, there is a vacuum of power and a change in power.  They own the media, have the money to spin this as 10 years of "slow growth" while securing their own financial positions, transfer our money to their accounts.


Um, no.  A stratified collapse would be different.  We collapse while they do not.




> We need an intervention, like an addict does.  Can't wait for rock bottom cause their wont be one.  Like an intervention, we create a "false bottom".


While your assumption is anything but proven, the "intervention" notion is sound.




> Let's say this is our bottom, this is our collapse and start NOW diggin out.


The $#@! ain't deep enough still for lots of people.  Those who are aboard with digging out now are already working on it.  The rest may never come around.  Forget them.

Dismissing a grave collapse is rank foolishness, particularly one that is engineered to hit the lower strata of the financial pyramid.  What, pray tell, do you think installations such as Mt. Weather and The Greenbrier are for?  Hint: they are not for you or me.  They are readily defensible installations wherein those at the top can hole-up for years as the rest of us kill each other off when the party suddenly ends.  That is the assumption that is built into the very reason such places exist.  Whether those assumptions hold in truth remains to be seen.

Personally, I am about 50-50 on whether the current collapse (yes, there has been a collapse, so your assertion to the contrary is already demonstrably wrong) will go much further.  It depends on what the intentions of those wielding power are and just how strong their grip is on the reins of this thing.  Therefore, it is anyone's guess at this point.  With some small luck, we will sink not much further.  Without it... well, best to be a little prepared, which is always a good idea in any event because $#@! does happen... like earthquakes and fires, etc.

----------

