# Lifestyles & Discussion > Peace Through Religion >  My Faith Struggle

## Deborah K

I'd like to have a discussion with fellow members of faith about a struggle I am having.  As a Christian, I try to do three things:

1.  Keep in mind that God is with me in all things

2.  Pay close attention to what God is trying to teach me

3.  Do the right thing, even when it is hard, or I don't feel like it.

Man oh man do I struggle with this.  Number 1 is pretty easy, but I find myself deliberately ignoring the lessons or the messages, or that tiny voice.  And as far as number 3 goes, I can be one stubborn wench!

What are your struggles, and how do you handle it?

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## heavenlyboy34

My outlets for tormenting feelings are my art, music, composition, reading, exercise, and writing. (and occasionally blabbing on RPFs and my blog)

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## Deborah K

> My outlets for tormenting feelings are my art, music, composition, reading, exercise, and writing. (and occasionally blabbing on RPFs and my blog)


I wouldn't exactly say my feelings are tormented about this.  It's more like I'm being bratty and lazy and rebellious.  I know what I need to do, but I lack the spiritual self discipline.

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## Pericles

> I wouldn't exactly say my feelings are tormented about this.  It's more like I'm being bratty and lazy and rebellious.  I know what I need to do, but I lack the spiritual self discipline.


An inspiring story can help create the resolve to make the right decision:
http://www.suite101.com/content/st-m...-legion-a42501

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## Deborah K

> An inspiring story can help create the resolve to make the right decision:
> http://www.suite101.com/content/st-m...-legion-a42501


Forgive my ignorance, but based on your link, how does St. Maurice inspire the resolve to make the right decisions?

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## pcosmar

If you have never read it, I suggest Pilgrims Progress by John Bunyan.

You can buy it or read it online.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/bunyan/pilgrim.html

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## Deborah K

> If you have never read it, I suggest Pilgrims Progress by John Bunyan.
> 
> You can buy it or read it online.
> http://www.ccel.org/ccel/bunyan/pilgrim.html


Thank you!

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## Madly_Sane

This may not be something you approve of as a christian, but I'm going to be honest, weed. It helps take alot of pressure off of my shoulders. I'm not exactly a devote christian, I don't read the bible or go to church, I'm very tolerant of other 'faiths'. I try my best to be a 'good lil' christian'. W/o weed, I'd go insane thinking about how f'd up the world is. Weed helps you think about things clearly w/o strong feelings getting in the way of you making the right decisions...usually.(results may vary )

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## oyarde

> I'd like to have a discussion with fellow members of faith about a struggle I am having.  As a Christian, I try to do three things:
> 
> 1.  Keep in mind that God is with me in all things
> 
> 2.  Pay close attention to what God is trying to teach me
> 
> 3.  Do the right thing, even when it is hard, or I don't feel like it.
> 
> Man oh man do I struggle with this.  Number 1 is pretty easy, but I find myself deliberately ignoring the lessons or the messages, or that tiny voice.  And as far as number 3 goes, I can be one stubborn wench!
> ...


I see your point , I think . # 1 is pretty easy . I do well with #3 for the most part and while sometimes difficult .... even if I were to fail on a point in number three , the important thing is that I recognize that I failed . Number two is probably not easy for me .

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## jmdrake

Paul had the same struggle. (Roman 7:24).  But he ultimately expounded that not only is it God's job to give you the power to do right, but it's also His job to give you the desire to do right.  (Philippians 2:13)  And yes.  I'm still in the same boat myself.

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## Deborah K

> This may not be something you approve of as a christian, but I'm going to be honest, weed. It helps take alot of pressure off of my shoulders. I'm not exactly a devote christian, I don't read the bible or go to church, I'm very tolerant of other 'faiths'. I try my best to be a 'good lil' christian'. W/o weed, I'd go insane thinking about how f'd up the world is. Weed helps you think about things clearly w/o strong feelings getting in the way of you making the right decisions...usually.(results may vary )


I smoked a lot of weed in my youth, among other things.    I matured out of it.  Not saying that people who smoke are immature, just saying that it's not for me anymore.  (although I wouldn't be opposed to smoking on occasion).

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## Madly_Sane

hehe

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## Deborah K

> I see your point , I think . # 1 is pretty easy . I do well with #3 for the most part and while sometimes difficult .... even if I were to fail on a point in number three , the important thing is that I recognize that I failed . Number two is probably not easy for me .


Number two is really hard.  Three is concrete, you know what I mean?  You know what the right thing is...for example....."I NEED to call my mother.  She's old and sick and would love to hear from me.  But I can't stand the constant complaints about this or that. She's sooooo negative."  So what do I do?  I put it off....and off...and off....This is just one example of my spiritual laziness.

Two requires me to pay very close attention to what God is trying to tell me in certain situations.  Sometimes it's clear to me, and I know what I must do.  Other times it's really hard to understand what the lesson is.  And other times, I know what the lesson is and I don't care, I just do what I want about it, because I'm stubborn and think I don't need God's help.  That I can do it myself.  What an idiot.

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## Deborah K

> Paul had the same struggle. (Roman 7:24).  But he ultimately expounded that not only is it God's job to give you the power to do right, but it's also His job to give you the desire to do right.  (Philippians 2:13)  And yes.  I'm still in the same boat myself.


Thank you.  I'll look those verses up and mark them.

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## Theocrat

> I'd like to have a discussion with fellow members of faith about a struggle I am having.  As a Christian, I try to do three things:
> 
> 1.  Keep in mind that God is with me in all things
> 
> 2.  Pay close attention to what God is trying to teach me
> 
> 3.  Do the right thing, even when it is hard, or I don't feel like it.
> 
> Man oh man do I struggle with this.  Number 1 is pretty easy, but I find myself deliberately ignoring the lessons or the messages, or that tiny voice.  And as far as number 3 goes, I can be one stubborn wench!
> ...


Proverbs 11:14 says, "Where no counsel is, the people fall, but in the multitude of counselors there is safety." Also, in Galatians 6:2, it states, "Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." When a Christian struggles in their faith, it is always best to be with other Christians brothers and sisters who can pray for you and encourage you during your hard times. Because we're so indoctrinated by rugged individualism in our American culture, we sometimes feel that we must deal with our struggles on our own. However, we as Christians belong to a body of believers (1 Corinthians 12:26, 27), and within that body, there are saints who are gifted to help us with our struggles.

One of the things I struggle with is loneliness, but whenever I'm worshiping and fellowshiping with my Christian brothers and sisters, I feel loved and renewed. So, DeborahK, do you belong to a church anywhere?

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## Deborah K

> Proverbs 11:14 says, "Where no counsel is, the people fall, but in the multitude of counselors there is safety." Also, in Galatians 6:2, it states, "Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." When a Christian struggles in their faith, it is always best to be with other Christians brothers and sisters who can pray for you and encourage you during your hard times. Because we're so indoctrinated by rugged individualism in our American culture, we sometimes feel that we must deal with our struggles on our own. However, we as Christians belong to a body of believers (1 Corinthians 12:26, 27), and within that body, there are saints who are gifted to help us with our struggles.
> 
> One of the things I struggle with is loneliness, but whenever I'm worshiping and fellowshiping with my Christian brothers and sisters, I feel loved and renewed. So, DeborahK, do you belong to a church anywhere?


I am a recovering Catholic.  Although I miss the traditions, like receiving communion - I really miss that - and the reverence to God and his Mother, I can't be a part of Catholicism anymore.  I am, and have always been, the most faithful member of my family and friends, so they are not an option as a means of support for me in this struggle.

There is a church in Point Loma called 'The Rock' that I am interested in attending. http://www.therocksandiego.org/ I agree with you that I should be with other Christians and that is why I posted this, because at the moment, I have no Church to attend and I need some spiritual support, and I'll take it any way I can get it.

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## oyarde

> Number two is really hard.  Three is concrete, you know what I mean?  You know what the right thing is...for example....."I NEED to call my mother.  She's old and sick and would love to hear from me.  But I can't stand the constant complaints about this or that. She's sooooo negative."  So what do I do?  I put it off....and off...and off....This is just one example of my spiritual laziness.
> 
> Two requires me to pay very close attention to what God is trying to tell me in certain situations.  Sometimes it's clear to me, and I know what I must do.  Other times it's really hard to understand what the lesson is.  And other times, I know what the lesson is and I don't care, I just do what I want about it, because I'm stubborn and think I don't need God's help.  That I can do it myself.  What an idiot.


Number two is probably harder for me , I am a man . As a whole woman may be more intuitive .

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## oyarde

> I am a recovering Catholic.  Although I miss the traditions, like receiving communion - I really miss that - and the reverence to God and his Mother, I can't be a part of Catholicism anymore.  I am, and have always been, the most faithful member of my family and friends, so they are not an option as a means of support for me in this struggle.
> 
> There is a church in Point Loma called 'The Rock' that I am interested in attending. http://www.therocksandiego.org/ I agree with you that I should be with other Christians and that is why I posted this, because at the moment, I have no Church to attend and I need some spiritual support, and I'll take it any way I can get it.


I attend a Luthern church . The congregation is very polite and accepting .

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## oyarde

Probably just need to find a few people who are like minded to hang out with once a week . May not even need to be church.

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## TER

Fasting, prayer, and almsgiving.  These three make up the time-honored and tested Christian path to spiritual growth.  From purification, to enlightenment, to deification.  This is the way of the saints, of which I am nowhere close to even approaching.

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## dannno

They don't call it "The Jesus Drug" for nothing.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...periences.html


Edit: Dunno why this article seems to be missing stats from others I've read.. i.e. "79 percent reported a moderately or greatly increased sense satisfaction with their lives, compared to members of a study control group who received placebos at the same test session."

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## Deborah K

> They don't call it "The Jesus Drug" for nothing.
> 
> http://www.newscientist.com/article/...periences.html





> .... psilocybin use has been associated with side effects such as severe paranoia, nervousness and unwanted flashbacks and so experts warn against experimentation.


uhhh....I think I'll pass.....

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## austin944

> Number two is really hard.  Three is concrete, you know what I mean?  You know what the right thing is...for example....."I NEED to call my mother.  She's old and sick and would love to hear from me.  But I can't stand the constant complaints about this or that. She's sooooo negative."  So what do I do?  I put it off....and off...and off....This is just one example of my spiritual laziness.


You could just ask her why she's being negative.  She might get the hint that you don't like hearing negativity, without you actually telling her.  At least it will open up a discussion towards a better understanding between the two of you. It seems to me that open honesty is better than hiding feelings and building up resentment.

BTW I am not a Christian, so don't take it as inspired advice.

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## ClayTrainor

> uhhh....I think I'll pass.....


Your loss.  

YouTube - Mushrooms and Spirituality

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## TER

The effects of hallucinogenic substances do create spiritual experiences.  The problem is that it may also allow for sinister spiritual beings, ie demons, to enter the thoughts and minds of those who are on such substances.  And when such forces gain a foothold, they can be difficult to root out.  This is why the desert fathers and mothers from the beginning who lived their lives in constant prayer and spiritual battle against their passions and the temptings of the devil have consistently and universally insisted that the use of such substances are fraught with dangers and should be shunned.  For those who fight the unseen warfare against the spiritual forces which attack us with the three weapons I mentioned earlier, that is fasting, prayer, and almsgiving (as Christ taught and did Himself), then the experiences of the Holy Spirit in the process of deification will bring ecstacy, peace, joy, and love much greater and much fuller than those done by the temporary chemical reactions of psychotropic substances.

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## Deborah K

> You could just ask her why she's being negative.  She might get the hint that you don't like hearing negativity, without you actually telling her.  At least it will open up a discussion towards a better understanding between the two of you. It seems to me that open honesty is better than hiding feelings and building up resentment.
> 
> BTW I am not a Christian, so don't take it as inspired advice.


Oh, that was just one example I was trying to put across.  Believe me when I tell you, my Mother and I have had many conversations about being negative.  It is her nature.  She is 68 years old now and her disposition is set.  It's just something I have to accept about her.  When we love someone, we accept things about them that we cannot change.  It's not that I never call her, I do, I just dread it and admittedly, I put it off.

I appreciate your advice Austin.

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## Deborah K

> Your loss.  
> 
> YouTube - Mushrooms and Spirituality


Clay, darlin'..... I am a throw back from the 70's.  "Sex, drugs, and rock-and-roll" was a motto I lived by.  (she says with great shame)  Do you really think I haven't 'been there - done that' ?

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## dannno

> uhhh....I think I'll pass.....


That happens to certain people with certain mindsets in specific situations. 

Hope you didn't stop reading there, that was like the second sentence of the article.

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## Maximus

You might want to check out some of Fr. Robert Barron's videos at WordOnFire.org

He's really good, here's a couple that stand out:

http://www.wordonfire.org/WOF-TV/Com...-Creation.aspx

http://www.wordonfire.org/WOF-TV/Com...-The-Fall.aspx

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## Deborah K

> The effects of hallucinogenic substances do create spiritual experiences.  The problem is that it may also allow for sinister spiritual beings, ie demons, to enter the thoughts and minds of those who are on such substances.  And when such forces gain a foothold, they can be difficult to root out.  This is why the desert fathers and mothers from the beginning who lived their lives in constant prayer and spiritual battle against their passions and the temptings of the devil have consistently and universally insisted that the use of such substances are fraught with dangers and should be shunned.  For those who fight the unseen warfare against the spiritual forces which attack us with the three weapons I mentioned earlier, that is fasting, prayer, and almsgiving (as Christ taught and did Himself), then the experiences of the Holy Spirit in the process of deification will bring ecstacy, peace, joy, and love much greater and much fuller than those done by the temporary chemical reactions of psychotropic substances.


^ This....is more my speed these days.

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## dannno

YouTube - Jesus Ranch Music Video

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## Deborah K

> You might want to check out some of Fr. Robert Barron's videos at WordOnFire.org
> 
> He's really good, here's a couple that stand out:
> 
> http://www.wordonfire.org/WOF-TV/Com...-Creation.aspx
> 
> http://www.wordonfire.org/WOF-TV/Com...-The-Fall.aspx


Thank you!  I will do that.

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## dannno

> *The effects of hallucinogenic substances do create spiritual experiences.*  The problem is that it may also allow for sinister spiritual beings, ie demons, to enter the thoughts and minds of those who are on such substances.  And when such forces gain a foothold, they can be difficult to root out.  This is why the desert fathers and mothers from the beginning who lived their lives in constant prayer and spiritual battle against their passions and the temptings of the devil have consistently and universally insisted that the use of such substances are fraught with dangers and should be shunned.  For those who fight the unseen warfare against the spiritual forces which attack us with the three weapons I mentioned earlier, that is fasting, prayer, and almsgiving (as Christ taught and did Himself), then the experiences of the Holy Spirit in the process of deification will bring ecstacy, peace, joy, and love *much greater and much fuller than those done by the temporary chemical reactions of psychotropic substances*.


Um, the two parts I put in bold are contradictory. Either they cause spiritual experiences, or it is simply a temporary chemical reaction. 

I will postulate you've never taken mushrooms.

Good people also shouldn't worry about demons.

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## ClayTrainor

> Clay, darlin'..... I am a throw back from the 70's.  "Sex, drugs, and rock-and-roll" was a motto I lived by.  (she says with great shame)  Do you really think I haven't 'been there - done that' ?


Haha, sounds like youve had aome fun.  

I don't know whether you have done them or not, i assume you have from what u just said, but I just feel everyone should consider psychedelics if they are doing some serious soul searching.

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## TER

> Um, the two parts I put in bold are contradictory. Either they cause spiritual experiences, or it is simply a temporary chemical reaction. 
> 
> I will postulate you've never taken mushrooms.
> 
> Good people also shouldn't worry about demons.


Actually, I have taken my share of chemicals, the whole alphabet actually.  In fact, the _only_ one I don't think I have ever taken was peyote and that is only because I could never find it.  (I was a bartender in the Hamptons one summer, so you can imagine!)

I don't believe the two statements I made contradict eachother danno.  They certainly create chemical reactions in the brain as we can agree, but they don't _always_ create spiritual experiences.  Sometimes, its just being high and altered and little to nothing to do with spiritual experiences.

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## TER

> Good people also shouldn't worry about demons.


Everyone should worry about demons, especially sinners like me.

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## dannno

How to Smoke w/ Grandpa:



//http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrI7wQAgyxU

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## dannno

> Everyone should worry about demons, especially sinners like me.


Not if your true intentions are good.

Not saying they won't 'occur', but you shouldn't be worried of the outcome.

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## dannno

> Actually, I have taken my share of chemicals, the whole alphabet actually.  In fact, the _only_ one I don't think I have ever taken was peyote and that is only because I could never find it.  (I was a bartender in the Hamptons one summer, so you can imagine!)
> 
> I don't believe the two statements I made contradict eachother danno.  They certainly create chemical reactions in the brain as we can agree, but they don't _always_ create spiritual experiences.  Sometimes, its just being high and altered and little to nothing to do with spiritual experiences.



I didn't say it always created spiritual experiences, but it did in the case of about 66% of the individuals tested.

You seemed to say in the second bolded statement that you can't have a true spiritual experience on mushrooms, that it is just a chemical reaction, even thought hat contradicts some of your other statements.

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## oyarde

I guess from about 16 to 21 I experimented alot with about every type of hallucigen . I never had any bad experiences , but I do not think I had any spititual experiences , nor was I seeking any that I recall .

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## oyarde

Of course , I am way older than that now and have no desire to get that whacked out again. I just use beer & wine now .

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## Sola_Fide

> I'd like to have a discussion with fellow members of faith about a struggle I am having.  As a Christian, I try to do three things:
> 
> 1.  Keep in mind that God is with me in all things
> 
> 2.  Pay close attention to what God is trying to teach me
> 
> 3.  Do the right thing, even when it is hard, or I don't feel like it.
> 
> Man oh man do I struggle with this.  Number 1 is pretty easy, but I find myself deliberately ignoring the lessons or the messages, or that tiny voice.  And as far as number 3 goes, I can be one stubborn wench!
> ...



I'm with you Deb.  I am going through the same struggles.  I've noticed there are a number of different opinions on your post...everybody loves to give advice it seems

I'll just say this: it is so good that you are struggling.  Can you imagine what it would be like if you felt you were totally fine in your life???  That would be horrible! That would mean you were arrogant.  That would mean that the Holy Spirit is not in you convicting you of your sin!


Be comforted in the fact that you are being convicted.  The Lord is close to the broken-hearted, he blesses those who are poor in spirit.


Get in a prayer group with some like-minded friends.  Man, has this helped me in my spiritual walk.  There is nothing like a brother or a sister to sharpen you.

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## ruthie

Very nice, AquaBuddha, thanks.

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## TER

> You seemed to say in the second bolded statement that you can't have a true spiritual experience on mushrooms, that it is just a chemical reaction, even thought hat contradicts some of your other statements.


If it seems that is what I said, then it is because I haven't expressed it clearly.  I think a person can have a true spiritual experience on mushrooms just as a person can have a true spiritual experience without mushrooms, but from where that spiritual experience finds its source and with whom it is abiding in, be it from the Holy Spirit or from the demons, can be extremely difficult or even impossible to know.  It requires much discernment, as the devil can be as 'an angel of light' as the Apostle says.  Such psychotropic chemicals (the word psychotropic taken literally from the Greek 'spirit changing') can produce spiritual experiences, but the danger as I mentioned above is that when one allows themselves to enter such spiritual states without first purifying themselves (fasting, prayer, charity, etc), they can be playing with fire, which is why so many countless users succumb to spiritual sickness, such as gluttony, paranoia, depression and despondency (which is the greatest of the spiritual maladies).  Those who have found the path to true spiritual knowledge and maturity in the Holy Spirit do not require chemical substances, but rather experience the greatest of spiritual benefits which are eternal and infinite, namely 'love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.' (Galatians 5:22-23).  

This is the Pearl of Great Price the Lord spake of and is not achieved by temporary psychotropic chemicals but given by the Grace of God to those who follow Him.

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## TER

Forgive me if I start rambling, but I love these kinds of discussions!  

As an example, immediately after being baptized, Christ left for the desert where He fasted and prayed for 40 days. _ Only after this_ did He have the spiritual experiences with satan.  He did this to show us that we too should prepare ourselves that way when we attempt spiritual warfare with the devil.

And what 3 sins did Christ overcome, which the experiences of the desert fathers and mothers of the Church have confirmed to be the source of _all_ the remaining sins and passions?  gluttony, avarice, and vainglory.  The monastic experience has shown that these three vices are the cause for all the remaining ones, and Christ showed that when He overcome these temptations, satan could have no power over Him.

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## Suzu

> uhhh....I think I'll pass.....


I'm generally down on "recreational" drug use. Don't drink, don't smoke pot, never take pills or "hard stuff". BUT I once did eat a single, large (5" stem) psilocybin mushroom. I was curious about "psychedelics" but unwilling to take LSD which I felt was far too strong. I  did eventually take LSD and was not impressed, in fact I've often wished I never did that. Anyhow the point is, having experienced both substances, I can verify that psilocybin is way less potent than LSD, my estimate is about 80-90% less potent. The experience was wonderful, the most intense spiritual experience of my life. 

So, based on that experience, I can recommend the mushroom. You don't need much, especially if you're not too clogged up spiritually to begin with. The "doors of perception" are cleansed, as the saying goes, and you can revisit the experience without using a drug, fasting and prayer are sufficient.

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## BenIsForRon

> Paul had the same struggle. (Roman 7:24).  But he ultimately expounded that not only is it God's job to give you the power to do right, but it's also His job to give you the desire to do right.  (Philippians 2:13)  And yes.  I'm still in the same boat myself.


Ok, so if this is true, then how can God send people to hell?  He's supposed to give people the desire to do right, but if they don't, then did he really give them the desire?

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## jmdrake

> Ok, so if this is true, then how can God send people to hell?  He's supposed to give people the desire to do right, but if they don't, then did he really give them the desire?


God can only do His job if you let Him.  If you are in the ocean about to get eaten by sharks and you swim away from the lifeguard it's not the lifeguard's fault if you get eaten.  If God is offering you help and you reject His help it's not His fault if you choose hell over Him.  And (from my understanding of the Bible) you don't go to hell just for making mistakes.  You go to hell for refusing the help that's offered.  It's like the story of Moses holding up the brass serpent in the wilderness after the rebellious Israelites were bitten by poisonous snakes.  Those who looked at the brass serpent lived.  Those who didn't died.  It was an act of faith to see who was willing to choose God over death.

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## TER

> Ok, so if this is true, then how can God send people to hell?  He's supposed to give people the desire to do right, but if they don't, then did he really give them the desire?


The experience of hell will not be the lacking of God's love, for He 'filleth all things' and is everywhere present.  By Christ's blameless descent into Hades, the power of death has been overcome.  The gates of hell have been shattered by His Death and Resurrection.  'He has trampled death with death' and He has given us a path to eternal life.

To those who have heard His Word and listened, and have searched for His Truth while in this life, following the path of virtue and righteousness in praise and thanksgiving to our Creator while carrying our cross in faith and obedience, to those they become an adopted son of God and partake in the divine nature.

To those who have haven't, this very aversion to the Light of God will be to them a consuming fire, where the worm does not die and there is shattering of teeth.

We will accuse ourselves on that Day of Judgment, at the accumulation of the ages, when a new age will begin in a new Kingdom for all time.

Glory to God in the Highest!  Glory to the sovereign Lord of Hosts!  Have mercy on us sinners!

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## BenIsForRon

So God only instills the desire to do right in people that accept him.

How does a person come to understand they need to accept God and how do they know the _have_ accepted God.

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## TER

> It's like the story of Moses holding up the brass serpent in the wilderness after the rebellious Israelites were bitten by poisonous snakes.  Those who looked at the brass serpent lived.  Those who didn't died.  It was an act of faith to see who was willing to choose God over death.


Excellent analogy jmdrake.  I always love to be reminded of this event.  Such prophecy towards the power of the cross! The icon of a serpent, the most detested and accursed animal in creation, is hung upon wood, foretelling all the people forever afterwards that He who was accursed and was detested and hung upon a tree would be a source of healing for them and a path to life.  This one event in ancient Israel leads precisely to the foot of the cross and Christ's work in our salvation.

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## BlackTerrel

> I'd like to have a discussion with fellow members of faith about a struggle I am having.  As a Christian, I try to do three things:
> 
> 1.  Keep in mind that God is with me in all things
> 
> 2.  Pay close attention to what God is trying to teach me
> 
> 3.  Do the right thing, even when it is hard, or I don't feel like it.
> 
> Man oh man do I struggle with this.  Number 1 is pretty easy, but I find myself deliberately ignoring the lessons or the messages, or that tiny voice.  And as far as number 3 goes, I can be one stubborn wench!
> ...


I accept that I'll have struggles and am not perfect.  I strive to be the best I can be and realize I'll never reach perfection.  That helps me keep things light - you can't hold yourself to impossible standards.

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## TER

> So God only instills the desire to do right in people that accept him.


God instills all people to desire to do right and good.  It is our very nature, as creatures made in His image and likeness.  It is our corrupted will which continues to go against Him and estrange ourselves from Him by our words and our actions.




> How does a person come to understand they need to accept God and how do they know the _have_ accepted God.


It is the voice everyone has, though some have drowned that voice out due to years of neglect.  It is the nature of the child to believe in God, it is as we grow older where we start to doubt and question.  Yet, this attraction towards goodness and truth is still in us, in everyone, even the most violent and hateful people who have ever lived.  This power is in all of us if we use it correctly in accordance to the commandments of God. 

When we repent sincerely in tears and with a contrite heart like King David in Psalm 51 (50 in the Septuagint) , than we allow His grace to fill us and strengthen us through all trials and tribulations.

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## Deborah K

I am loving what I am reading here.  All of it.

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## BenIsForRon

> God instills all people to desire to do right and good.  It is our very nature, as creatures made in His image and likeness.  It is our corrupted will which continues to go against Him and estrange ourselves from Him by our words and our actions.
> 
> 
> 
> It is the voice everyone has, though some have drowned that voice out due to years of neglect.  It is the nature of the child to believe in God, it is as we grow older where we start to doubt and question.  Yet, this attraction towards goodness and truth is still in us, in everyone, even the most violent and hateful people who have ever lived.  This power is in all of us if we use it correctly in accordance to the commandments of God. 
> 
> When we repent sincerely in tears and with a contrite heart like King David in Psalm 51 (50 in the Septuagint) , than we allow His grace to fill us and strengthen us through all trials and tribulations.


Thanks for the wisdom.  I've been going through some spiritual hardship the past few years, trying to figure all this stuff out.  Sometimes it's hard to believe in a loving and reasonable God.

----------


## jmdrake

> So God only instills the desire to do right in people that accept him.
> 
> How does a person come to understand they need to accept God and how do they know the _have_ accepted God.


TodaysEpistleReading has given a good answer.  But I'll add Romans 10:14.

_How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?_

One of Christ's main missions on earth was to show the way to the Father through His own life and to then to train other people to carry on His work after He left.  It's like lighting a box of matches.  You only have to light the first and then there is a chain reaction.  Admittedly many Christians are poor matches (myself included ).  But the disciples were poor matches too at one point.  See what Jesus said to Peter shortly before the crucifiction ordeal where Peter would end up denying Him.

Luke 22:32

_But I have prayed for you, that your faith fail not: and when you are converted, strengthen your brothers._

It's important to remember that Peter was already saved.  But he wasn't *sealed*.  He hadn't reached the point where he wouldn't turn back no matter what.  And thus he had a weak witness.  Sure Jesus had given him power before this point to heal the sick and cast out demons and such, but he wasn't the powerhouse that he would later become.  

Ephesians 1:13,14 talks about how we are sealed by the Holy Spirit.  Revelation 7:3 speaks of angels "holding back the winds" of strife until God's servants are "sealed".  So we know this is an ongoing process that happens to people that God already considers His servants.  I hope this helps.

----------


## TER

> Thanks for the wisdom.  I've been going through some spiritual hardship the past few years, trying to figure all this stuff out.  Sometimes it's hard to believe in a loving and reasonable God.


The wisdom is not mine but of those who have seen God.   And what they have confessed and witnessed, even with their blood, is that God is Love.  He tests those whom He loves, as gold is purified in the fire.  Only then can the impurities and stains be removed and it's shininess can reflect the Light of God.  Seek Him and He will answer.

----------


## TER

> It's like lighting a box of matches.  You only have to light the first and then there is a chain reaction.


What a beautiful reflection on the day of Pentecost, when the promised Comforter, the Holy Spirit, descended upon the Apostles in tongues of fire, basically, flames!





> It's important to remember that Peter was already saved.  But he wasn't *sealed*.  He hadn't reached the point where he wouldn't turn back no matter what.  And thus he had a weak witness.  Sure Jesus had given him power before this point to heal the sick and cast out demons and such, but he wasn't the powerhouse that he would later become.  I hope that helps.


I confess I am not familiar with this teaching.  When was Peter sealed?

----------


## jmdrake

> I am loving what I am reading here.  All of it.


Thank you for posting this.  This is one of the best threads in the religion subforum ever.  In fact it might be one of the best threads at RPF ever.

----------


## jmdrake

> What a beautiful reflection on the day of Pentecost, when the promised Comforter, the Holy Spirit, descended upon the Apostles in tongues of fire, basically, flames!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I confess I am not familiar with this teaching.  When was Peter sealed?


Sorry I was too quick to post this without adding the appropriate references.  I have edited that now.  I would say that Peter was sealed sometime prior to Pentacost.  While Jesus didn't use the term "sealed", it was later used by Paul and by John the Revelator.  Jesus did, however, use the term "converted".  It doesn't make sense for Jesus to have been talking about "conversion" in terms of the traditional "sinner coming to Christ" sense, since Peter was already a follower of Christ and someone that Jesus kept in His inner circle.  (Peter being one of 3 disciples to see Jesus transfigured).  So I believe "conversion" meant Peter being ready to receive the full indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  And since Paul teaches that it is the Holy Spirit that does the sealing, I believe Peter was sealed on the day of Pentacost itself.  Again he was already saved.  But here he became an unflappable soldier for Christ.  Maybe salvation is like being admitted to West Point and sealing is like graduation?

----------


## TER

> Sorry I was too quick to post this without adding the appropriate references.  I have edited that now.  I would say that Peter was sealed sometime prior to Pentacost.  While Jesus didn't use the term "sealed", it was later used by Paul and by John the Revelator.  Jesus did, however, use the term "converted".  It doesn't make sense for Jesus to have been talking about "conversion" in terms of the traditional "sinner coming to Christ" sense, since Peter was already a follower of Christ and someone that Jesus kept in His inner circle.  (Peter being one of 3 disciples to see Jesus transfigured).  So I believe "conversion" meant Peter being ready to receive the full indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  And since Paul teaches that it is the Holy Spirit that does the sealing, I believe Peter was sealed on the day of Pentacost itself.  Again he was already saved.  But here he became an unflappable soldier for Christ.  Maybe salvation is like being admitted to West Point and sealing is like graduation?


But after the day of Pentecost, Peter was not unflappable.  In fact, he strayed and needed to be corrected by a Roman convert, namely Paul.  What is the definition of being sealed?

----------


## TER

I apologize for hijacking this thread and steering into a different direction which strays from the original purpose.  Forgive me.  I will end my night stating that just as Peter struggled daily up until and including the day he was crucified upside down in Rome, we too should be prepared to struggle against the forces which fight against us.  And like Peter, when we fall or error or deny Christ, we should repent in humble and loving obedience, learning from Saint Peter who is the great example given to us by the Lord of great faith, persistence, and humility,- even after sinking in the waters once walked upon or denying Him whom we call God, and instead choosing His truth over our own will and understandings.

----------


## dannno

> I apologize for hijacking this thread and steering into a different direction which strays from the original purpose.  Forgive me.


It's just a forum, I don't think doing *that* is sinning

----------


## Deborah K

He's just being polite, Danno.     TER, no worries.  Feel free to continue.

----------


## Deborah K

> Thank you for posting this.  This is one of the best threads in the religion subforum ever.  In fact it might be one of the best threads at RPF ever.


Thank you.

----------


## Deborah K

> Thanks for the wisdom.  I've been going through some spiritual hardship the past few years, trying to figure all this stuff out.  Sometimes it's hard to believe in a loving and reasonable God.


Ben, I think we all have been through that at one point or another in our spiritual journey.  Ask God to help you see him.  Get down on your knees and ask him every day.  Believe me, he will answer your prayers.  Faith is a gift to everyone, we need only to accept it.

----------


## Theocrat

> Ben, I think we all have been through that at one point or another in our spiritual journey.  Ask God to help you see him.  Get down on your knees and ask him every day.  Believe me, he will answer your prayers.  Faith is a gift to everyone, we need only to accept it.


I think another key issue in this discussion is the temptation to rely on our emotions more than relying on God's promises in His word. Some days I don't feel saved, don't feel like praying, don't feel like sharing my faith, etc. However, God still tells me to walk in faith and do those objective things which He has commanded me, out of self-sacrificial love. That is where true faith is tested. Can we still obey our God even when it goes against every emotion for us to do so? When we're weak like that, it is in the moments when God really manifests Himself to us, as 2 Corinthians 12:9, "And He said unto me, 'My grace is sufficient for thee, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.' Most gladly, therefore, will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me."

Deborah K, a good book in the Bible for you to read when you're struggling in your faith is Ecclesiastes. It is chock-full of despair and yet, it has a wonderful message of hope and purpose at the end.

----------


## Deborah K

> I think another key issue in this discussion is the temptation to rely on our emotions more than relying on God's promises in His word. Some days I don't feel saved, don't feel like praying, don't feel like sharing my faith, etc. However, God still tells me to walk in faith and do those objective things which He has commanded me, out of self-sacrificial love. That is where true faith is tested. Can we still obey our God even when it goes against every emotion for us to do so? When we're weak like that, it is in the moments when God really manifests Himself to us, as 2 Corinthians 12:9, "And He said unto me, 'My grace is sufficient for thee, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.' Most gladly, therefore, will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me."
> 
> Deborah K, a good book in the Bible for you to read when you're struggling in your faith is Ecclesiastes. It is chock-full of despair and yet, it has a wonderful message of hope and purpose at the end.


I love Ecclesiastes.  I recently started reading a chapter from the old and a chapter from the new every morning.  Starting at the beginning. It really centers me.  I have always been a bible reader and have many favorite verses.

I know what you mean about not "feeling like it".  I've mentioned that in this thread.  That is one of my problems.  That, or I impose my own will on something thinking I can do it without God.  I really do try to do the three things I mentioned in the OP, but sometimes I just don't feel like it.  And it's so hard because the feeling of being close to God is sooooo much better!!!  Sometimes it overwhelms me with joy and I just want to cry.

I'm glad I posted this thread.  I'm feeling better, and I'm learning.

I've always loved this song:

YouTube - Turn! Turn! Turn! Ecclesiastes 3:1-15 MV

----------


## TheHumblePhysicist

I think you need to assimilate the teachings of God into your personality so your religious nature becomes a part of who you are. Start to become an upright, moral decent person as a matter of habit. The bible is a crutch. The church is a tool to bring the message of Christ to those in need of it. 

If you are a true believer, then I think you can take it upon yourself to have your own distinct personal morality and outlook on the world that does not mean constantly worrying about God and heaven. If you will believe, you will go there, don't burden yourself.

----------


## Deborah K

> I think you need to assimilate the teachings of God into your personality so your religious nature becomes a part of who you are. Start to become an upright, moral decent person as a matter of habit. The bible is a crutch. The church is a tool to bring the message of Christ to those in need of it. 
> 
> If you are a true believer, then I think you can take it upon yourself to have your own distinct personal morality and outlook on the world that does not mean constantly worrying about God and heaven. If you will believe, you will go there, don't burden yourself.


Burden and struggle are two different things.  I don't feel burdened.  And I don't constantly worry.  I struggle. I endeavor.  And spiritual support from fellow believers helps me deal with it.

I don't believe the bible is a crutch.  It is a combination of history, metaphors, and teachings.  It is a collection of works that span a few thousand years, and I believe it is divinely inspired.  The Church however, instead of being viewed as a vehicle in which to teach people about the source of divine power and through which divine power can be channeled into man’s nature,  is too often viewed as the power itself. And the church allows and even encourages this line of thinking. I believe this is extremely deceptive and destructive.  And I think it is the biggest issue for atheists, and in this way, they have a point.

----------


## jmdrake

> But after the day of Pentecost, Peter was not unflappable.  In fact, he strayed and needed to be corrected by a Roman convert, namely Paul.  What is the definition of being sealed?


I guess we are using a different definition of unflappable.  I could be using it wrong.  I mean that there was no other examples of Peter denying Christ.  Yes Peter initially agreed with Paul's position on what to require of the Gentile converts and then changed his mind after talking with more conservative Christians.  But I think that's in a different category than falsely claiming that he didn't know Jesus.  Peter was willing to be put in prison and ultimately die for the Christ he had once denied.

----------


## jmdrake

> I apologize for hijacking this thread and steering into a different direction which strays from the original purpose.  Forgive me.  I will end my night stating that just as Peter struggled daily up until and including the day he was crucified upside down in Rome, we too should be prepared to struggle against the forces which fight against us.  And like Peter, when we fall or error or deny Christ, we should repent in humble and loving obedience, learning from Saint Peter who is the great example given to us by the Lord of great faith, persistence, and humility,- even after sinking in the waters once walked upon or denying Him whom we call God, and instead choosing His truth over our own will and understandings.


I don't think you hijacked the thread and the OP seems to agree.    The question was basically how to grow as a Christian.  And I think you and I agree that Peter experienced Christian growth.  I also don't disagree with the idea that Peter had his daily struggles just like Paul.  But what we can see from the Bible record, it wasn't the same struggle that assailed Peter before the "conversion" that Jesus spoke to him about.  If you're growing as a Christian the nature of your daily struggle should change.  It doesn't mean you won't make ever make any more mistakes.

----------


## TheHumblePhysicist

> Burden and struggle are two different things.  I don't feel burdened.  And I don't constantly worry.  I struggle. I endeavor.  And spiritual support from fellow believers helps me deal with it.
> 
> I don't believe the bible is a crutch.  It is a combination of history, metaphors, and teachings.  It is a collection of works that span a few thousand years, and I believe it is divinely inspired.  The Church however, instead of being viewed as a vehicle in which to teach people about the source of divine power and through which divine power can be channeled into mans nature,  is too often viewed as the power itself. And the church allows and even encourages this line of thinking. I believe this is extremely deceptive and destructive.  And I think it is the biggest issue for atheists, and in this way, they have a point.


I don't really know what I was trying to say. I am feeling this out as I go. My general sentiment is that people should not display their religion on their chest, and should not go checking the bible to make every decision in their life. 

I think religion should be a very personal and private thing, each individual should have their own relationship with God. This is why I don't really think church is necessarily a good thing. It's a great environment to raise children in, but beyond that, I don't like the groupthink involved. I think that is how people lose God.

----------


## Deborah K

> I don't really know what I was trying to say. I am feeling this out as I go. My general sentiment is that people should not display their religion on their chest, and should not go checking the bible to make every decision in their life. 
> 
> I think religion should be a very personal and private thing, each individual should have their own relationship with God. This is why I don't really think church is necessarily a good thing. It's a great environment to raise children in, but beyond that, I don't like the groupthink involved. I think that is how people lose God.


I see what you're saying.  I agree with you about wearing your religion on your chest.  I hope that is not what you think I am doing.  There is a difference between unwanted evangelizing and needing spiritual support.  

I disagree with you that our faith should be exclusively private and personal.  It is meant to be shared.  We are social, tactile people when allowed to live within our nature.  We are meant to be together, not alone.  It's unhealthy, in my opinion, to believe you don't need anyone in your spiritual journey, or in life in general.  I'm not saying that you believe that, just that many people do.

----------


## TER

> The Church however, instead of being viewed as a vehicle in which to teach people about the source of divine power and through which divine power can be channeled into man’s nature,  is too often viewed as the power itself.


This is an unfortunate view which is very prevalent today due to the abuses and corruption of individuals within the Church (especially those in hierarchical positions), but it is not the original Christian understanding of the role of the Church and its important function.  The Church as understood from the earliest Christians is one of being a spiritual hospital, a place for strengthening and healing for those who are spiritually sick by it's use of liturgical prayers and grace filled sacraments.  These include communal prayers, Holy Unction, Holy Confession, and last but not least, Holy Communion, all of which are found within the traditions of the Church from the very beginning and strengthen the faithful by divine grace.  (I understand there are many modern Christian denominations which do not ascribe with these beliefs and traditions, but I am speaking of the early Church and how it is still practiced within Eastern Orthodoxy and other apostolic Churches.)

----------


## TER

> I don't think you hijacked the thread and the OP seems to agree.    The question was basically how to grow as a Christian.  And I think you and I agree that Peter experienced Christian growth.  I also don't disagree with the idea that Peter had his daily struggles just like Paul.  But what we can see from the Bible record, it wasn't the same struggle that assailed Peter before the "conversion" that Jesus spoke to him about.  If you're growing as a Christian the nature of your daily struggle should change.  It doesn't mean you won't make ever make any more mistakes.


Wonderfully explained.  Thank you!

----------


## Deborah K

> This is an unfortunate view which is very prevalent today due to the abuses and corruption of individuals within the Church (especially those in hierarchical positions), but it is not the original Christian understanding of the role of the Church and its important function.  The Church as understood from the earliest Christians is one of being a spiritual hospital, a place for strengthening and healing for those who are spiritually sick by it's use of liturgical prayers and grace filled sacraments.  These include communal prayers, Holy Unction, Holy Confession, and last but not least, Holy Communion, all of which are found within the traditions of the Church from the very beginning and strengthen the faithful by divine grace.  (I understand there are many modern Christian denominations which do not ascribe with these beliefs and traditions, but I am speaking of the early Church and how it is still practiced within Eastern Orthodoxy and other apostolic Churches.)


Agree completely.

----------


## TheHumblePhysicist

> This is an unfortunate view which is very prevalent today due to the abuses and corruption of individuals within the Church (especially those in hierarchical positions), but it is not the original Christian understanding of the role of the Church and its important function.  The Church as understood from the earliest Christians is one of being a spiritual hospital, a place for strengthening and healing for those who are spiritually sick by it's use of liturgical prayers and grace filled sacraments.  These include communal prayers, Holy Unction, Holy Confession, and last but not least, Holy Communion, all of which are found within the traditions of the Church from the very beginning and strengthen the faithful by divine grace.  (I understand there are many modern Christian denominations which do not ascribe with these beliefs and traditions, but I am speaking of the early Church and how it is still practiced within Eastern Orthodoxy and other apostolic Churches.)


Yeah, I was raised a Lutheran, so we didn't have a lot of those traditions (Holy Unction???) It was a pretty easygoing church with nice people. Nobody really talked about religion after service, the men mostly talked about work, and the women mostly talked about the children. I see these Evangelical Christians and I don't know what to think. They seem almost like a cult. (no insult intended)

----------


## Original_Intent

> I see what you're saying.  I agree with you about wearing your religion on your chest.  I hope that is not what you think I am doing.  There is a difference between unwanted evangelizing and needing spiritual support.  
> 
> I disagree with you that our faith should be exclusively private and personal.  It is meant to be shared.  We are social, tactile people when allowed to live within our nature.  We are meant to be together, not alone.  It's unhealthy, in my opinion, to believe you don't need anyone in your spiritual journey, or in life in general.  I'm not saying that you believe that, just that many people do.


As someone who posted that they wanted to write F___ You TSA on their underwear on their next trip to the airport....I think it is safe to say you are not wearing your religion on your chest. 

Great thread btw.

----------


## TER

> Yeah, I was raised a Lutheran, so we didn't have a lot of those traditions (Holy Unction???)


Holy Unction, also commonly known as the 'anointing of the sick', has been practiced from the earliest Christian times and is rooted actually in the practices of the Jews before them.  A famous New Testament scriptural reference to this practice can be found in James 5:14-15: "Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven."

I believe there are Lutheran communities that do practice this sacrament, though in varying degrees.

----------


## Deborah K

> As someone who posted that they wanted to write F___ You TSA on their underwear on their next trip to the airport....I think it is safe to say you are not wearing your religion on your chest. 
> 
> Great thread btw.


Hehe.  Thanks.  The use of foul language is one of my many vices.  Sorry if it offends anyone.

----------


## TheHumblePhysicist

> Holy Unction, also commonly known as the 'anointing of the sick', has been practiced from the earliest Christian times and is rooted actually in the practices of the Jews before them.  A famous New Testament scriptural reference to this practice can be found in James 5:14-15: "Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven."
> 
> I believe there are Lutheran communities that do practice this sacrament, though in varying degrees.


Oh yeah. We would pray for the sick. I don't remember calling it the "Holy Unction" though. But then again, I was just a little acolyte back then, that was some time ago. Maybe I've forgotten.

----------


## Original_Intent

> Hehe.  Thanks.  The use of foul language is one of my many vices.  Sorry if it offends anyone.


Same here (foul language is a struggle). But I didn't intend this as a put down, I was just pointing out that you definitely don't come across as "holier-than-thou" - you seem to be very down to earth and in some ways it makes your religious side more real and sincere.

----------


## Deborah K

Thank you, for the kind words.  Means a lot.

----------


## georgiaboy

The best cure for me in my Christian struggling is to focus on God and others more, then my struggles seem to disappear or at least come into perspective.
In addition to reading scripture and books on Christian living, I especiallly like to use music to focus on God, both corporately and privately.  I also love, love face to face small group settings/bible study groups for working out my faith struggles with fellow believers.  Lastly, I volunteer my time alongside fellow believers, so both the social and charitable aspects of focusing on others really puts my struggles into perspective for me.

and, breathe...

YouTube - David Crowder Band - How He Loves (Slideshow With Lyrics)

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## georgiaboy

Had to post another one.  So cool.

YouTube - David Crowder Band - SMS [Shine]

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## Imaginos

I didn't know about this post's existence.
Now it does make sense why some are upset on the post with similar title.

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## oyarde

> I didn't know about this post's existence.
> Now it does make sense why some are upset on the post with similar title.


I just got interested reading the other one and it is locked . Why would it be locked ?

----------


## Dr.3D

> I just got interested reading the other one and it is locked . Why would it be locked ?


Nobody had faith that it wouldn't get locked?

----------


## oyarde

> Nobody had faith that it wouldn't get locked?


Thats pretty good . seriously though did I miss some transgression in the other thread ?

----------


## Maximus

Seeing as you enjoy Ecclesiastes, you may also enjoy the Liturgy of the Hours, the public prayer of the Church, which all priests and religious (along with many of the laity) promise to pray everyday.

http://www.universalis.com/

The books are called "breviary's", and can be found at any Catholic book store.  I prefer the books, although there are apps and ways to do it online.  The books can be kind of intimidating at first, if you decide to pick one up, let me know.  I see that you live in San Diego, I live here too and work at Blessed Sacrament Church near the College Area.  I can show you how the book works.

The Liturgy of the Hours is based on a four week cycle of readings.  Most of the passages come from the book of Psalms.  Praying the Morning and Evening prayers day after day takes you through the whole cycle of human emotion and feeling towards God.  There are psalms of praise, anguish, hope, sadness, happiness, awe, loneliness, adversity, etc.  Which is fitting because in any four weeks, we often experience most of these feelings.  Jesus himself was steeped in the psalms and knew them by heart.  By praying the psalms we pray what Jesus prayed.

The intention of the Hours was to sanctify the day and the passing of time (also why Churches have bells).  Knowing that time was a gift from God, marking the passing of time and recognizing time as gift can be greatly beneficial to the soul. 

I have found the hours to be greatly beneficial in my own faith journey since I began to pray it a little over a year ago.

----------


## reillym

> I think another key issue in this discussion is the temptation to rely on our emotions more than relying on God's promises in His word. Some days I don't feel saved, don't feel like praying, don't feel like sharing my faith, etc. However, God still tells me to walk in faith and do those objective things which He has commanded me, out of self-sacrificial love. That is where true faith is tested. Can we still obey our God even when it goes against every emotion for us to do so? When we're weak like that, it is in the moments when God really manifests Himself to us, as 2 Corinthians 12:9, "And He said unto me, 'My grace is sufficient for thee, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.' Most gladly, therefore, will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me."
> 
> Deborah K, a good book in the Bible for you to read when you're struggling in your faith is Ecclesiastes. It is chock-full of despair and yet, it has a wonderful message of hope and purpose at the end.


You should probably get checked out... voices in your head usually aren't good things.

----------


## TER

PSALM 1
*The Way of the Righteous and the End of the Ungodly*
1 Blessed is the man
         Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,
         Nor stands in the path of sinners,
         Nor sits in the seat of the scornful;

 2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
         And in His law he meditates day and night.

 3 He shall be like a tree
         Planted by the rivers of water,
         That brings forth its fruit in its season,
         Whose leaf also shall not wither;
         And whatever he does shall prosper.


 4 The ungodly are not so,
         But are like the chaff which the wind drives away.

 5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,
         Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.


 6 For the LORD knows the way of the righteous,
         But the way of the ungodly shall perish.

----------


## TER

PSALM 2
*The Messiah’s Triumph and Kingdom*
 1 Why do the nations rage,
         And the people plot a vain thing?

 2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
         And the rulers take counsel together,
         Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,

 3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
         And cast away Their cords from us.”


 4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
         The Lord shall hold them in derision.

 5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
         And distress them in His deep displeasure:

 6 “Yet I have set My King
         On My holy hill of Zion.”


 7 “I will declare the decree:
         The LORD has said to Me,
         ‘You are My Son,
         Today I have begotten You.

 8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
         The nations for Your inheritance,
         And the ends of the earth for Your possession.

 9 You shall break them with a rod of iron;
         You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’”


 10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
         Be instructed, you judges of the earth.

 11 Serve the LORD with fear,
         And rejoice with trembling.

 12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
         And you perish in the way,
         When His wrath is kindled but a little.
         Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

----------


## Cowlesy

> You should probably get checked out... voices in your head usually aren't good things.

----------


## jmdrake

> You should probably get checked out... voices in your head usually aren't good things.


It never ceases to amaze me how people who think religious people are "crazy" insist on supporting a religious person (Ron Paul) for president.  Sure you are free to support whoever you want.  It just doesn't make sense to me though.  I might support someone who I didn't agree with 100%, but I wouldn't support someone I thought was "crazy".

----------


## Deborah K

> You should probably get checked out... voices in your head usually aren't good things.


Do you know the difference between the words "literal" and "metaphorical" ?

----------


## Southron

> It never ceases to amaze me how people who think religious people are "crazy" insist on supporting a religious person (Ron Paul) for president.  Sure you are free to support whoever you want.  It just doesn't make sense to me though.  I might support someone who I didn't agree with 100%, but I wouldn't support someone I thought was "crazy".


I don't think reillym is a Ron Paul supporter, but rather the resident religion forum troll.

----------


## Deborah K

A quick thanks to everyone who contributed to the discussion. I now have a bounty of information from which to quench my spiritual thirst.

Please feel free to continue to post your thoughts, ideas, and your own struggles.  I am really loving what I am reading and learning.

----------


## oyarde

> You should probably get checked out... voices in your head usually aren't good things.


Not a problem for me .... I do not listen

----------


## Suzu

> uhhh....I think I'll pass.....


Read this new article, Deb!

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## TER

To the faithful you show yourself faithful;
      to those with integrity you show integrity.
 To the pure you show yourself pure,
      but to the wicked you show yourself hostile.
 You rescue the humble,
      but you humiliate the proud.
 You light a lamp for me.
      The Lord, my God, lights up my darkness.  

_taken from Psalm 18_

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## TER

PSALM 2


1 LORD, how they have increased who trouble me!
         Many are they who rise up against me.
 2 Many are they who say of me,
         There is no help for him in God.  

 3 But You, O LORD, are a shield for me,
         My glory and the One who lifts up my head.
 4 I cried to the LORD with my voice,
         And He heard me from His holy hill. 

 5 I lay down and slept;
         I awoke, for the LORD sustained me.
 6 I will not be afraid of ten thousands of people
         Who have set themselves against me all around.

 7 Arise, O LORD;
         Save me, O my God!
         For You have struck all my enemies on the cheekbone;
         You have broken the teeth of the ungodly.
 8 Salvation belongs to the LORD.
         Your blessing is upon Your people.

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## TER

Psalm 103

Bless the LORD, O my soul;
         And all that is within me, bless His holy name!
Bless the LORD, O my soul,
         And forget not all His benefits:
Who forgives all your iniquities,
         Who heals all your diseases,
Who redeems your life from destruction,
         Who crowns you with lovingkindness and tender mercies,
Who satisfies your mouth with good things,
         So that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s.

The LORD executes righteousness
         And justice for all who are oppressed.
He made known His ways to Moses,
         His acts to the children of Israel.
The LORD is merciful and gracious,
         Slow to anger, and abounding in mercy.
He will not always strive with us,
         Nor will He keep His anger forever.
 He has not dealt with us according to our sins,
         Nor punished us according to our iniquities.

 For as the heavens are high above the earth,
         So great is His mercy toward those who fear Him;
 As far as the east is from the west,
         So far has He removed our transgressions from us.
 As a father pities his children,
         So the LORD pities those who fear Him.
 For He knows our frame;
         He remembers that we are dust.

 As for man, his days are like grass;
         As a flower of the field, so he flourishes.
 For the wind passes over it, and it is gone,
         And its place remembers it no more.
 But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting
         On those who fear Him,
         And His righteousness to children’s children,
 To such as keep His covenant,
         And to those who remember His commandments to do them.

 The LORD has established His throne in heaven,
         And His kingdom rules over all.

 Bless the LORD, you His angels,
         Who excel in strength, who do His word,
         Heeding the voice of His word.
 Bless the LORD, all you His hosts,
         You ministers of His, who do His pleasure.
 Bless the LORD, all His works,
         In all places of His dominion.

         Bless the LORD, O my soul!

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## heavenlyboy34

Deb-Have you read "You Can Work Your Own Miracles" by Napoleon Hill?  Though not a strictly spiritual book, it does touch on spirituality in several places, like the chapter "Sorrow-the path to the soul".  It's on Amazon here in paperback and kindle format.

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## Deborah K

> Read this new article, Deb!


I have to admit, that was rather intriguing.  Thanks, Suzu.

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## Deborah K

> Deb-Have you read "You Can Work Your Own Miracles" by Napoleon Hill?  Though not a strictly spiritual book, it does touch on spirituality in several places, like the chapter "Sorrow-the path to the soul".  It's on Amazon here in paperback and kindle format.


I haven't but it looks similar to a book that I read and still love and refer to often by Joseph Murphy called:  The Power of your Subconscious Mind.  I believe in the Law of Attaction, and I believe Jesus believed it too because in Mark 12: 24 he states it. "Listen to me!  You can pray for anything, and if you believe, you have it, it's yours!" Of course he includes a caveat - and that is that you must be forgiving.

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## Deborah K

> To the faithful you show yourself faithful;
>       to those with integrity you show integrity.
>  To the pure you show yourself pure,
>       but to the wicked you show yourself hostile.
>  You rescue the humble,
>       but you humiliate the proud.
>  You light a lamp for me.
>       The Lord, my God, lights up my darkness.  
> 
> _taken from Psalm 18_


LOVE this!!!!

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## Suzu

> I have to admit, that was rather intriguing.  Thanks, Suzu.


Not sure if you saw the *full* article or just the summary on Natural News. The full article is at http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/06/1...y-researchers/

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## AFPVet

> I'd like to have a discussion with fellow members of faith about a struggle I am having.  As a Christian, I try to do three things:
> 
> 1.  Keep in mind that God is with me in all things
> 
> 2.  Pay close attention to what God is trying to teach me
> 
> 3.  Do the right thing, even when it is hard, or I don't feel like it.
> 
> Man oh man do I struggle with this.  Number 1 is pretty easy, but I find myself deliberately ignoring the lessons or the messages, or that tiny voice.  And as far as number 3 goes, I can be one stubborn wench!
> ...


I have learned that I cannot rationalize all things in my lifeand that I need to just let God be my brain.

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## Working Poor

I did my share of peyote, & mushrooms, I don't call them chemicals and I believe my experience with them was very spiritual. I do agree that they change my brain chemistry though.

I don't have any burning desire to do them at this point in my life. But I don't look at it like I was sinning either when I did it. I look at it like it was spirit warrior training. I have been a part of many Christian prayer groups where it seemed as though most everyone experienced an altered state.

I have found that I am a rebel even though I do have a desire to be obedient. Some times I think I can bend the laws of the universe to my own way and I bang my head cause I am stubborn too. Ouch!

God is love and that is the lesson I think for me. Maybe. God is pretty hard to figure out sometimes and because I am stubborn. I can't always understand why or what He wants me to do.  His will His way not mine. It is a narrow path. Beautiful are the feet of the ones who walk in the Lord.

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## Dark_Horse_Rider

> Oh, that was just one example I was trying to put across.  Believe me when I tell you, my Mother and I have had many conversations about being negative.  It is her nature.  She is 68 years old now and her disposition is set.  It's just something I have to accept about her.  When we love someone, we accept things about them that we cannot change.  It's not that I never call her, I do, I just dread it and admittedly, I put it off.
> 
> I appreciate your advice Austin.


Just as you accept your mother's "nature", accept your own feelings towards her and the perceived shortcomings you see in yourself, without judgement or labels such as bratty or lazy.

Don't try to be good, just be yourself.

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## Deborah K

I'm resurrecting this thread to prove a point.  Three and half years ago, when folks posted in the religious forum, we actually got along for the most part. 

I miss the days when there was little contention among Christian folk.  I know there are those who believe _they_ are the only Christians, but I _don't_ believe that.
And I will do whatever I can to stop what is happening to this forum, since it was I who argued to have it in the first place.  I never imagined Christians would go at each other the way they have.  It's an embarrassment to all of us, it's no way to spread the Good News, in fact, it's doing the opposite.  It needs to stop!

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## heavenlyboy34

> I'm resurrecting this thread to prove a point.  Three and half years ago, when folks posted in the religious forum, we actually got along for the most part. 
> 
> I miss the days when there was little contention among Christian folk.  I know there are those who believe _they_ are the only Christians, but I _don't_ believe that.
> And I will do whatever I can to stop what is happening to this forum, since it was I who argued to have it in the first place.  I never imagined Christians would go at each other the way they have.  It's an embarrassment to all of us, it's no way to spread the Good News, in fact, it's doing the opposite.  *It needs to stop!*


Ah, it's an ancient problem.  Even the disciples argued amongst themselves who was the greatest.  So long as there are many competing denominations, there will be conflict. 



> Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth.  I did not come to bring peace but a sword.  For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter in law against her mother in law', and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household'.  He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.  And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.  He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

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## Deborah K

> Ah, it's an ancient problem.  Even the disciples argued amongst themselves who was the greatest.  So long as there are many competing denominations, there will be conflict.


If only that was all it was.

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## Kevin007

> I wouldn't exactly say my feelings are tormented about this.  It's more like I'm being bratty and lazy and rebellious.  I know what I need to do, but I lack the spiritual self discipline.


pls be more specific I am an amateur counselor. (no degree).

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## acptulsa

> pls be more specific I am an amateur counselor. (no degree).


I think you're about three and a half years too late.

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## Kevin007

> I think you're about three and a half years too late.


thanks for your reply.

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## acptulsa

> thanks for your reply.


That post you quoted was written on Armistice Day 2010.

Deborah bumped this old thread for a reason other than a relapse...

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## Terry1

> Ah, it's an ancient problem.  Even the disciples argued amongst themselves who was the greatest.  So long as there are many competing denominations, there will be conflict.


Right, no one can force their beliefs on someone else no matter what they are, the results are inevitable.  Hitler, Stalin and Mao did that, dejavu.   It's a mighty slippery slope.  We're either free or we're not.  I choose to be free--so--God bless and all take care.  Hope I see some of you on the other side.

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## acptulsa

Oh?

Well, if you get the notion not to be a stranger in the meantime, that would be good too.

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## Natural Citizen

> I never imagined Christians would go at each other the way they have.  It's an embarrassment to all of us, it's no way to spread the Good News, in fact, it's doing the opposite.  It needs to stop!



OK, Deborah. Although I'm not a Christian, I do certainly antagonize them in a round about way there in the Religion sub forum. But not just to antagonize, per se. There usually is logical madness in my methods and I do try to stimulate broader discussion. I'll stop doing that though and will only post discussion on threads that I start in that section. I'm interested in the historical elements of organized "Religion" and it's impact on civilization more so than the nuts and bolts of Christianity and other social philosophies that have sprouted over time anyhow.

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## Deborah K

> OK, Deborah. Although I'm not a Christian, I do certainly antagonize them in a round about way there in the Religion sub forum. But not just to antagonize, per se. There usually is logical madness in my methods and I do try to stimulate broader discussion. I'll stop doing that though and will only post discussion on threads that I start in that section. I'm interested in the historical elements of organized "Religion" and it's impact on civilization more so than the nuts and bolts of Christianity and other social philosophies that have sprouted over time anyhow.


NC, it's expected from atheists/agnostics.  And anyway, I don't think anyone has a problem with you.    I know I don't.

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