# Lifestyles & Discussion > Personal Prosperity >  Gold and silver down?

## kpitcher

I know the attention has been on bitcoin but why are gold and silver taking a hit? Someone must not like alternative currencies.

----------


## Keith and stuff

Partly because the USD is so strong lately. Blame Japan and Europe for causing people to lose faith in their currencies.

----------


## Original_Intent

BT*D

----------


## Brian4Liberty

It might be this press release from Goldman Sachs. Headlines actually have the exclamation point.

When the big manipulators can't short enough on their own, it helps when they can get everyone to do it.




> Goldman Sachs: Short Gold!
> 
> Goldman Sachs is chasing gold to the downside.
> 
> With the precious metal inching closer to a bear market, the firm tells clients that now’s the time to short gold.
> 
> Goldman slashed its short- and long-term gold forecasts, a move that comes about six weeks after the firm had already turned even more bearish on the metal.
> 
> http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2013...hs-short-gold/

----------


## Original_Intent

Lol, I am gonna love to see how this plays out in the 3 to 6 month range. Thanks for the link, Brian!

This is just like the opposite of the housing bubble, it will be interesting the day that conventional wisdom runs into reality.

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

Lol....$6 premium if I want to buy an ASE from APMEX.

----------


## Zippyjuan

Gold has been heading fairly steadily down since last September. 

http://www.kitco.com/charts/techcharts_gold.html

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

Mario Draghi Orders Cyprus To Sell Gold To Cover Bailout "Shortfall"

----------


## dannno

> Gold has been heading fairly steadily down since last September. 
> 
> http://www.kitco.com/charts/techcharts_gold.html


So you're saying gold is in an anti-bubble?

----------


## jclay2

I don't really give a hoot about the $ price of my gold and silver anymore. I have my ounces as an emergency. Hopefully, I will get to pass them on to the grand children without having to use them.

----------


## ILUVRP

i see lots of margin/maintance calls going out today , also GLD etf dumping to send out money to people getting out.

as far as the charts , the big move in gold started at about $800/oz and went to about $1800/oz , a $1000 move , cut that in half and its $500 , add that to $800 and that sets gold at $1300 .

spot gold prices

jmo

----------


## Seraphim

Yes this is true.

Japan/JGB/YEN are volatile to the Nth degree right now - that has been an international safe haven for 2 decades. Liquidity is REFUSING to sell JGB (counter intuitive and the opposite of what people like Kyle Bass and myself think will ultimately play out).

Instead of selling JGB to get rid of some of that volatility, they are selling other assets to create cash buffers to meet future (and current) margin calls that are the result of this particular volatility.

This is a lot like Cyprus (potentially) selling it's gold to garner more bailout funds.

It may put downward pressure on gold NOW but it places even more downward pressure on the future of the Euro and the balance sheet of Cyprus.

How can it possibly make sense for a bankrupt entity to take on more debt at the behest of selling one it's most stable and liquid assets?

*Now the debtor has more debt and less collateral.* 

Japanese money markets are in the process of making the same sort of mistake.

_Why part with your strong unleveraged assets to fund short term needs in debt saturated and structurally damaged assets like JGB?_ 

Irrational as far as I am concerned.

I have not been a buyer of PM's for a while (numerous reasons)...

But if gold/silver start dipping into the 1300/20 range I am a buyer with both fists and as much in each fist as I can.


More on the Japan point:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-0...es-are-selling

This sort of volatility out of Japan is extremely rare and general signals that we're not in Kansas anymore.




> i see lots of margin/maintance calls going out today , also GLD etf dumping to send out money to people getting out.
> 
> as far as the charts , the big move in gold started at about $800/oz and went to about $1800/oz , a $1000 move , cut that in half and its $500 , add that to $800 and that sets gold at $1300 .
> 
> spot gold prices
> 
> jmo

----------


## Jordan

The fear trade is over.

----------


## devil21

Contract expiration is approaching.  This happens right before expiration every time.  They beat down metals to avoid people taking delivery and to cover shorts.  Fwiw, other commodities are also taking a beating.

----------


## devil21

Metal dealers sure haven't reacted much.  Prices haven't budged, just higher premiums.

Also, there has been more jawboning from the Fed recently about ending all QE by years end.  That's bearish for metals in short term.  Who really thinks they'll actually stop QE though?

----------


## Jordan

> Also, there has been more jawboning from the Fed recently about ending all QE by years end.  That's bearish for metals in short term.  Who really thinks they'll actually stop QE though?


Me. Not by year-end, but they'll start slashing it sooner than you think.

----------


## dannno

> Also, there has been more jawboning from the Fed recently about ending all QE by years end.  That's bearish for metals in short term.  Who really thinks they'll actually stop QE though?


I wouldn't bet on it, personally.

----------


## devil21

> Me. Not by year-end, but they'll start slashing it sooner than you think.


Who then is going to finance the federal deficit?  You know the Fed is basically monetizing the entire deficit right now on a month-to-month basis.  What do you foresee that would change this?

----------


## P3ter_Griffin

> Who then is going to finance the federal deficit?  You know the Fed is basically monetizing the entire deficit right now on a month-to-month basis.  What do you foresee that would change this?


They will continue buying bonds to keep rates near zero but the $85Bln/month will dry up.

I do think they will end it before this year is up.  US banks are sitting pretty with their reserves and they've been able to unload their non-performing MBS on the fed already.  Other than pushing markets higher there isn't much left to accomplish with QE.

----------


## enoch150

Oil is also down 3% today. I don't believe that is a coincidence and any theory you have about why gold is down had better also be able to account for the drop in oil.

----------


## kpitcher

> I wouldn't bet on it, personally.


When it's worded as bet it makes me wonder who replaced intrade for the bet on anything premise?

----------


## devil21

> They will continue buying bonds to keep rates near zero but the $85Bln/month will dry up.
> 
> I do think they will end it before this year is up.  US banks are sitting pretty with their reserves and they've been able to unload their non-performing MBS on the fed already.  Other than pushing markets higher there isn't much left to accomplish with QE.


Im not following your logic here.  The deficit will still be there and unless there's a huge spike in interest in fresh Treasury issues (like serious euro crisis that sends everyone fleeing into dollars), the primary dealers will keep taking down 50% of the new issues.  The dealers have been selling those new issues to the Fed to monetize the deficit (that $85billion).  If the Fed stops buying from the PDs then the PDs are stuck with the issues since few are buying otherwise.  This would mean that the PDs would be monetizing the deficit and I can't imagine they'll do that for long for little to no return.  Maybe Im confused but I don't follow your logic.

----------


## oyarde

> Oil is also down 3% today. I don't believe that is a coincidence and any theory you have about why gold is down had better also be able to account for the drop in oil.


Natural gas is through the roof, everything else, down.

----------


## P3ter_Griffin

> Im not following your logic here.  The deficit will still be there and unless there's a huge spike in interest in fresh Treasury issues (like serious euro crisis that sends everyone fleeing into dollars), the primary dealers will keep taking down 50% of the new issues.  The dealers have been selling those new issues to the Fed to monetize the deficit (that $85billion).  If the Fed stops buying from the PDs then the PDs are stuck with the issues since few are buying otherwise.  This would mean that the PDs would be monetizing the deficit and I can't imagine they'll do that for long for little to no return.  Maybe Im confused but I don't follow your logic.


It is my understanding that the Fed, in setting a .25% interest rate target, will buy the bonds necessary to do so.  And then QE is $85Bln a month on top of that for purchasing bonds and MBS from banks.  

On a CCTV program today I heard QE described as what central banks do when manipulating bond rates to zero doesn't work.

----------


## P3ter_Griffin

This is by @JohnKicklighter the chief currency strategist at dailyfx.  He's the only trader I follow, he gives good insight into what kind of monetary effects different events cause and brings economics into a math dominated market.  Worth a chance on your twitter feed IMO.

About gold today (and other stuff):

----------


## LibertyRevolution

It is April... People cashing in to pay taxes.

----------


## oyarde

> Oil is also down 3% today. I don't believe that is a coincidence and any theory you have about why gold is down had better also be able to account for the drop in oil.


I cannot make any sense of it all. Dow , flat , S & P down .28 %, Nasdaq down .16 % ,Corn up 1.22% , Nat Gas up 2.92 %, Copper down 2.3 %, Oil down 3 %, Brent Crude down 1.11 % , and currently Silver $25.85 ( never thought it would be seen under $26 ), Gold $1477 , Palladium , $705 ,Platinum $1484.

----------


## oyarde

On the Mercantile , Soybean oil , Feeder cattle down , everything else , up . Corn , Soybeans , Soybean meal , Wheat ,Live Cattle,Lean Hogs,Class 3 Milk , all up.

----------


## LibertyEagle

Read what Jim Sinclair has to say about it.
http://www.jsmineset.com/

----------


## oyarde

> Read what Jim Sinclair has to say about it.
> http://www.jsmineset.com/


I see that, something sceavy going on , Nasdaq looks over valued to me, silver , copper , gold look undervalued......

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Today a former Assistant Secretary of the US Treasury told King World News that the smash in gold and silver today was entirely orchestrated by the Federal Reserve.  Former Assistant of the US Treasury, Dr. Paul Craig Roberts, also warned KWN that stocks of available physical gold are rapidly declining.  Below is what Dr. Roberts had to say in this extraordinary and exclusive interview.
> 
> Eric King:  Dr. Roberts, we have this smash on gold and silver today.  Gold down $75 at one point and silver was down $1.75, your thoughts here?
> 
> Dr. Roberts:  This is an orchestration (the smash in gold).  Its been going on now from the beginning of April.  Brokerage houses told their individual clients the word was out that hedge funds and institutional investors were going to be dumping gold and that they should get out in advance.
> 
> Then, a couple of days ago, Goldman Sachs announced there would be further departures from gold.  So what they are trying to do is scare the individual investor out of bullion.  Clearly there is something desperate going on.


http://www.jsmineset.com/2013/04/12/...smash-in-gold/

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> http://www.jsmineset.com/2013/04/12/...smash-in-gold/


So even gold and silver aren't immune to manipulation.  To those of you who thought it was sooo much safer than bitcoin, watch out.  I will keep my silver in the meantime.  They can't scare me.

----------


## devil21

> It is my understanding that the Fed, in setting a .25% interest rate target, will buy the bonds necessary to do so.  And then QE is $85Bln a month on top of that for purchasing bonds and MBS from banks.  
> 
> On a CCTV program today I heard QE described as what central banks do when manipulating bond rates to zero doesn't work.


I follow you better now.  That $85B is still what's financing the deficit though.  If that dries up, who finances the deficit?  Seems it would fall on the primary dealers if things stay the same since they're still forced to take down whatever doesn't otherwise sell.  To avoid that there would need to be a big spike in interest in Treasury issues to scare more buyers into our debt paper and out of other currencies/assets.  Can they keep beating down metals further to spook overseas PM investment back into our debt?  I doubt it since it appears those that would buy our debt (Chinese, for example) are busy stacking REAL metals.

----------


## Zippyjuan

The Fed doesn't own any gold to sell and lower the market price so it would be kinda difficult for them to force a "collapse" in the price of gold. Gold has been heading down since its peak in September so sure brokers are probably advising clients against buying it.

Goldman Sachs: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/goldma...132705633.html



> "Despite resurgence in euro area risk aversion and disappointing U.S. economic data , gold prices are unchanged over the past month, highlighting how *conviction in holding gold is quickly waning,"* said Goldman Sachs analysts Damien Courvalin and Jeffrey Currie in the note. 
> 
> The analysts cut their gold forecast to $1,450 per ounce for 2013 and $1,270 for 2014, the second cut in their price target this year. 
> 
> "With our economists expecting few ramifications from Cyprus and that the recent U.S. slowdown will not derail the faster recovery they forecast in the second half of 2013, we believe a sharp rebound in gold prices is unlikely. Given gold's recent lackluster price action and our economists' expectation for higher U.S. real rates, we are lowering our U.S. dollar-denominated gold price forecast once again."

----------


## devil21

> The Fed doesn't own any gold to sell and lower the market price so it would be kinda difficult for them to force a "collapse" in the price of gold. Gold has been heading down since its peak in September so sure brokers are probably advising clients against buying it.
> 
> Goldman Sachs: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/goldma...132705633.html


Not sure anybody said the Fed was actually selling gold, physical or paper.  The Fed does pass down "instructions" to member banks though.  I think that's what is being alleged here.  Goldman and the Fed not interlinked?  LOL come on Zippy.  Even you know better than that.

If the Fed has no problem leaking important data to banks ahead of the public, I don't see how anyone could claim the Fed isn't acting in concert with the banks, particularly when it comes to beating down prices on the dollar's biggest direct competitor, gold.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3055989.html

----------


## Zippyjuan

Gold is up- it is the market.  Gold is down- there must be some manipulation behind it.  And all manipulation starts at the Fed.  I seee.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> So even gold and silver aren't immune to manipulation.  To those of you who thought it was sooo much safer than bitcoin, watch out.  I will keep my silver in the meantime.  They can't scare me.


Were you not aware that gold and silver have been manipulated for a long time.  However, this latest stuff seems like a huge jump in manipulation.

Have you never read GATA?

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Gold is up- it is the market.  Gold is down- there must be some manipulation behind it.  And all manipulation starts at the Fed.  I seee.


It's not that, Zippy.  Gold is acting directly opposite of what it should be doing when you look at the increase in monetary supply, the runaway debt, etc.

----------


## The Freethinker

In this article, Paul Craig Roberts explains yesterday's $73 drop in the price of gold. 

Roberts also has an interview on Youtube, from April 9, 2013, discussing the "assault on gold."

----------


## RickyJ

> Gold is up- it is the market.  Gold is down- there must be some manipulation behind it.  And all manipulation starts at the Fed.  I seee.


What do you see?  Those who have the most money have the most influence over the price of commodities and stocks, that is just a fact.

----------


## RickyJ

> Gold is up- it is the market.  Gold is down- there must be some manipulation behind it.  And all manipulation starts at the Fed.  I seee.


What do you see?  Those h who have the most money have the most influence over the price of commodities and stocks, that is just a fact.

----------


## oyarde

> It's not that, Zippy.  Gold is acting directly opposite of what it should be doing when you look at the increase in monetary supply, the runaway debt, etc.


That is how I see it .If metals were going down , because other things were improving , great, but other things are not improving , and , we are probably to the point where they will not/cannot .......(debt, interest on the debt , spending a trillion more anually than is incoming, money needed and not there in the future for for SS , etc )

----------


## Zippyjuan

Things HAVE been improving.  They are not up to the levels people would like for them to be but we are a long ways off the bottom (granted a long ways to go).

----------


## oyarde

> Things HAVE been improving.  They are not up to the levels people would like for them to be but we are a long ways off the bottom (granted a long ways to go).


I see nothing improving enough to account for things I see in different markets ?

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

Under $25. I figured it'd be in the teens by July, but we might hit that by weeks end. I'm getting ready to back the truck up and BTFD. Hell, this might end up doubling my current holdings.

----------


## Okie RP fan

Not sure what to think of the prices of gold and silver right now. I'd like to think that $25 is a nice mark to steadily float, not going down nor up more than $3 within a respectable time span. Right now the news is fairly quiet, so people aren't panicking like they were. Especially with Summer coming around, people are turning their attention to other things.

----------


## cubical

The sheep will be led to slaughter with silver. Just stick with gold.

----------


## NoOneButPaul

Both silver and gold are fine investments. Silver has actually had the greater gains over the past 10 years and, unlike gold, is both a monetary and industrial metal. 

There's a great liquadation going on right now. I suspect the bullion banks are unloading their shorts and the price is about to explode.

Physical buying has been through the roof over the last 2 months (20% of gold inventories are gone) and Silver has broken the monthly sales record 3 straight months in 2013... 16million ASEs have already been sold (only 30mil last year). During the Cyprus event almost 1million Eagles were sold in a day. 

There's a bloodbath going on in the paper markets right now for a variety of different reasons but ultimately I think this is the beginning of the end for the price suppression. 

They're going to blame the meteoric rise in gold and silver on the debt ceiling debate or the implosion of Japan's economy or war in Korea or WHATEVER... something is being set up as the fall guy for the economic implosion that's coming. 

Gold and silver are down... will probably keep going down... but they are not out.

----------


## Okie RP fan

> The sheep will be led to slaughter with silver. Just stick with gold.


Hey, most people can't afford to invest in gold and want to do what they are able to. Silver is great for most people and WILL be accepted during any sort of crash amongst private exchanges.

----------


## Bossobass

> The Fed doesn't own any gold to sell and lower the market price so it would be kinda difficult for them to force a "collapse" in the price of gold. Gold has been heading down since its peak in September so sure brokers are probably advising clients against buying it.
> 
> Goldman Sachs: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/goldma...132705633.html


Hmmm, let's see... do I waste my time with the Paul Craig Roberts interview or just write him off and wait for the next jewel from Zippy? Big decision here. 




> Gold is up- it is the market.  Gold is down- there must be some manipulation behind it.  *And all manipulation starts at the Fed.  I seee.*


Finally. Took you long enough.

----------


## Bossobass

CBs are buying gold at the highest pace in half a century. You know, as Bennie told Ron, "It's tradition".

The Fed doesn't own any gold? Seems to me they somehow ended up with the largest hoard of gold in the world. Try taking some from their vaults and get back to me. It's a pretty strong tradition.

American Silver Eagle or USD? Let's see, on the back of the ASE it says "One Ounce Fine Silver  One Dollar". One Federal Reserve Paper Dollar or one American Silver Eagle. Even after being hammered for decades, a single ASE is still, as of this post, demanding 30 Dollars.

Yeah, hard to decide, for sure.

----------


## WillieKamm

The Schiff scenario never seems to play itself out.  Is this crashing of the metals markets a harbinger of even deeper drops or just additional evidence that Peter Schiff will be vindicated in the end? Weimar Germany or modern day Zimbabwe here we come. I don't know, but I do know I quit following his pronouncements a long time ago.

----------


## cbc58

this drop and the dollar hasn't strengthened... what happens if it does?   is this a distraction for something else... ??

----------


## Zippyjuan

> CBs are buying gold at the highest pace in half a century. You know, as Bennie told Ron, "It's tradition".
> 
> The Fed doesn't own any gold? Seems to me they somehow ended up with the largest hoard of gold in the world. Try taking some from their vaults and get back to me. It's a pretty strong tradition.
> 
> American Silver Eagle or USD? Let's see, on the back of the ASE it says "One Ounce Fine Silver  One Dollar". One Federal Reserve Paper Dollar or one American Silver Eagle. Even after being hammered for decades, a single ASE is still, as of this post, demanding 30 Dollars.
> 
> Yeah, hard to decide, for sure.


US gold belongs to the US Treasury.  The Fed (acting as banks do) stores the gold for them.  The Fed does not own any of the gold they store.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> The Schiff scenario never seems to play itself out.  Is this crashing of the metals markets a harbinger of even deeper drops or just additional evidence that Peter Schiff will be vindicated in the end? Weimar Germany or modern day Zimbabwe here we come. I don't know, but I do know I quit following his pronouncements a long time ago.


Peter Schiff backed off his "hyperinflation" claims last year. 

http://silverdoctors.com/peter-schif...nflation-call/



> We ask Peter Schiff, CEO of Euro Pacific Capital, what happened to his calls for hyperinflation. Peter admitted to us that hyperinflation may not happen after all,


Just yesterday he was still calling for $5000 an ounce gold (of course he was trying to hype his latest gold product- the "gold chocolate bar"). 

He called for the dollar to collapse this year.  And last year. And the year before.  And the year before that.

----------


## Jordan

> He called for the dollar to collapse this year.  And last year. And the year before.  And the year before that.


At least he's consistent.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

People have been moving from gold to real estate for the last two years or so. Where is real estate going? People moving from the craps table to the roulette wheel...

----------


## Brian4Liberty

How much money has gone into arms and ammo for the past year or so?

----------


## Jordan

> People have been moving from gold to real estate for the last two years or so. Where is real estate going? People moving from the craps table to the roulette wheel...


Real estate is a multi-year winner here. Cash flow is unmatched, levered or unlevered.

----------


## Okie RP fan

I'm actually surprised that gold and silver dipped as low as they did today.

----------


## P3ter_Griffin

> It is my understanding that the Fed, in setting a .25% interest rate target, will buy the bonds necessary to do so.  And then QE is $85Bln a month on top of that for purchasing bonds and MBS from banks.  
> 
> On a CCTV program today I heard QE described as what central banks do when manipulating bond rates to zero doesn't work.


So I asked John Kicklighter about this today and it seems like my understanding is incorrect.

Me:



> If QE ends, fed will still buy bonds as needed to keep .25% interest rate, right? So fed balance sheet may not flat-line?


Him:



> They don't need to purchase assets to manipulate the benchmark rate. They simply set it. QE and rate level are separate.


So, by keeping the benchmark rate low they will still provide arbitrage opportunities to institutions who can borrow from the fed, i.e. borrow at .25% and invest in Tbills at 2% (or whatever rate is prevailing), but I've come to see and agree with what you (devil21) are saying; that if the fed is no longer willing to purchase bonds from the banks, and the banks can get higher returns elsewhere, it would make sense that they'd move the money they are borrowing at .25% away from treasuries and into higher yielding investments.

I still can't see how they'd try to justify continuing QE (not that our politicians make them), but at the same time I realize they will do _anything_ to keep Tbill rates from rising.  I'm intrigued to see what happens next.

----------


## The Gold Standard

> They don't need to purchase assets to manipulate the benchmark rate. They simply set it. QE and rate level are separate.


They can't just declare the rate and it is so. If the market demands higher than .25% interest rates, then the Fed will absolutely have to keep purchasing assets to keep them that low.

----------


## P3ter_Griffin

> They can't just declare the rate and it is so. If the market demands higher than .25% interest rates, then the Fed will absolutely have to keep purchasing assets to keep them that low.


That was my thoughts too.  But the rate they are setting-- the benchmark rate-- is simply the rate which borrowers from the fed have to pay, its not open for market participants to find a free market rate.  You are correct though, if we're talking about interest rates, or treasury rates, then they would have to buy assets to effectively set the rate.

----------


## Okie RP fan

I could see silver bottoming out around $19-$20 this Summer, but, nothing lower. I will be shocked if it goes any lower. It hasn't been $18 since I bought my first silver coin at a political convention about 4 years ago.

Hey, thank the strong U.S. dollar! I'm happy to see gas prices falling during the middle of Spring.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> So I asked John Kicklighter about this today and it seems like my understanding is incorrect.
> 
> Me:
> 
> 
> Him:
> 
> 
> So, by keeping the benchmark rate low they will still provide arbitrage opportunities to institutions who can borrow from the fed, i.e. borrow at .25% and invest in Tbills at 2% (or whatever rate is prevailing), but I've come to see and agree with what you (devil21) are saying; that if the fed is no longer willing to purchase bonds from the banks, and the banks can get higher returns elsewhere, it would make sense that they'd move the money they are borrowing at .25% away from treasuries and into higher yielding investments.
> ...


Banks borrowing from the Fed is basically zero.   If you want to get more than the 0.25% the Fed is offering on excess reserves, you must buy Treasuries of longer than two year terms (three year notes are  currently yielding only 0.36%- that is a long time to tie up money at that rate of return).   http://www.treasury.gov/resource-cen...spx?data=yield

Total borrowing of financial institutions currently (as of March 2013) is only $394 million- yes, million with an "m". 
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/BORROW





> *Total Borrowings of Depository Institutions from the Federal Reserve (BORROW)*
> 
>  2013-03: 0.394 Billions of Dollars


Banks aren't borrowing at 0.25% from the Fed and then investing it in Treasuries or anything else- they aren't borrowing from the Fed period.  In fact, the actually have LOANED (via excess reserves kept at the Fed) the Fed $1.6 trillion they are not investing in anything.

----------


## oyarde

> Banks borrowing from the Fed is basically zero.   If you want to get more than the 0.25% the Fed is offering on excess reserves, you must buy Treasuries of longer than two year terms (three year notes are  currently yielding only 0.36%- that is a long time to tie up money at that rate of return).   http://www.treasury.gov/resource-cen...spx?data=yield
> 
> Total borrowing of financial institutions currently (as of March 2013) is only $394 million- yes, million with an "m". 
> http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/BORROW
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Banks aren't borrowing at 0.25% from the Fed and then investing it in Treasuries or anything else- they aren't borrowing from the Fed period.  In fact, the actually have LOANED (via excess reserves kept at the Fed) the Fed $1.6 trillion they are not investing in anything.


Correct , the Fed is a $#@! sandwich .

----------


## Okie RP fan

Golly, Provident has kept their prices steady, not a drop from what I can tell, at least nothing significant. They have a serious premium with their purchases but let me say that the service up to this point has been great and quick.

----------


## Bossobass

> US gold belongs to the US Treasury.  The Fed (acting as banks do) stores the gold for them.  The Fed does not own any of the gold they store.


The gold 'owned' by the US Treasury is supposed to be in Fort Knox, not 'stored' CB vaults.

As I posted in the other thread, according to Alan Greenspan, the semantics of ownership of US gold are irrelevant:




> On July 24, 1998, Alan Greenspan: *“Central banks stand ready to lease gold in increasing quantities should the price rise.”*


More recently, as a result of GATA FOIA requests, a Fed Governor responded:




> "In connection with your appeal, I have confirmed that the information withheld under Exemption 4 consists of confidential commercial or financial information relating to the operations of the Federal Reserve Banks that was obtained within the meaning of Exemption 4. *This includes information relating to swap arrangements with foreign banks on behalf of the Federal Reserve System and is not the type of information that is customarily disclosed to the public.* This information was properly withheld from you."


You may argue all you want about the official version of gold ownership in the US, but the Fed leases gold, swaps gold and swaps gold for currency all day long... off balance sheet and without oversight. They do so to suppress the cost of gold against the USD (and their friends' fiat currencies at other CBs).

Ron has questioned various Fed officials about this for decades:




> Last week, during a congressional subcommittee hearing on Domestic Monetary Policy, Ron Paul asked Fed General Counsel Scott G Alvarez if the Federal Reserve engaged in gold swaps. He followed that up with general questions about the Fed’s position on gold. Most notably, the representatives of the Fed responded by explaining that the Fed did not own any gold but only owned gold certificates from the 1930′s and the U.S. gold reserves are actually owned by the U.S. Treasury.
> 
> Ron Paul also has inquired about whether the gold in Fort Knox has been accounted for, responding to rumors that all the U.S. gold may not actually be in Fort Knox.


IOW, RP has repeatedly asked the Fed about the truth of these matters. Ron knows the answers to all of the questions he's asked Greenspan, Bernanke, et al, but he repeatedly asked them publicly so that YOU would become aware, which apparently you have chosen to ignore in favor of the "official versions" of the Fed and US Treasury Department.

----------

