# Lifestyles & Discussion > Personal Health & Well-Being >  The Problem With the Paleo Diet Argument

## farreri

It's time to put all this Paleo and other animal-based low-carb diet nonsense to rest once and for all.

*The Problem With the Paleo Diet Argument*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx0pOGVMntM


Early human ancestors were not predominantly meat eaters, but _frugivores_ just like most of the other great apes.

*Teeth Show Fruit Was The Staple; No Exceptions Found*
BALTIMORE PRELIMINARY studies of fossil teeth have led an anthropologist to the startling suggestion that early human ancestors were not predominantly meat eaters or even eaters of seeds, shoots, leaves or grasses. Nor were they omnivorous. Instead, they appear to have subsisted chiefly on a diet of fruit. 
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...639C946890D6CF
full article http://health101.org/art_diet2.htm

*Paleopoo: What We Can Learn from Fossilized Feces* (We were frugivores)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZEZYu_7zR4

*FOSSILIZED POO DEBUNKS PALEO DIET*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVcSF5ecpmc



*How to Really Eat Like a Hunter-Gatherer: Why the Paleo Diet Is Half-Baked* 
http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...er-really-eat/

*Low Carb vs. Plant-Based Diet - The Paleo Diet Is Uncivilized (and Unhealthy and Untrue)*
https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/e...nt-based-diet/

*Paleo Diets May Negate Benefits of Exercise*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFIEUjh0jpI



Was the traditional Eskimo diet healthy? *Nope!*




> - "Eskimos have a similar prevalence of CAD (coronary artery disease) as non-Eskimo populations, they have excessive mortality due to cerebrovascular strokes, their overall mortality is twice as high as that of non-Eskimo populations, and their life expectancy is approximately 10 years shorter than the Danish population."
> 
> - Mummified remains of Eskimos dating back 2,000 years have shown extensive hardening of the arteries throughout their brains, hearts and limbs--two Eskimo women, one in her twenties and the other in her forties, frozen for five centuries in a tomb of ice. When discovered and medically examined they both showed signs of severe osteoporosis and also suffered extensive atherosclerosis, "probably the result of a heavy diet of whale and seal blubber."
> 
> - Alaskan Eskimos older than age 40 have been found to have a 10% to 15% greater deficit in bone mineral density compared to Caucasians in the US. 
> 
> - The infamous Bang and Dyerberg study has been dis-proven.


*Omega-3’s and the Eskimo Fish Tale*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LvGiiZyn-M 

*Eskimos Suffer from Atherosclerosis & Severe Bone Loss*
https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2015nl/apr/eskimos.htm

*What Low Carb High Meat Eskimo Diet Does To Body*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG-mWcDbasI



What diet style did the healthiest communities follow?

*Blue Zones*: What the Longest-Lived People Eat *(Hint: It’s Not Steak Dinners)*
- "the longest-lived people ate a *high complex-carb diet* with medium levels of fat and medium-to-low levels of protein"
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...steak-dinners/


Even a plant-based low carb diet was shown to be way more healthier than a animal-based low carb diet.

*Plant-based Atkins diet*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmDUnFd6UX4


Plants. Who knew?!

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## Zippyjuan

All "diets" have their flaws.

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## farreri

> All "diets" have their flaws.


Well some way more than others, I guess.

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## Zippyjuan

The problem is that a "diet" focus on either excluding or only including  limited types of foods so you end up with deficiencies in nutrients.  They also become monotonous and difficult to follow long term. Variety.  Vegetarians have troubles getting enough complete protein and meat diets lose out on vitamins and minerals in fruits and vegetables.

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## William R

Been on the Paleo diet for 4 years.  Works great and I feel fantastic.  Energy, Energy and more Energy

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## farreri

> The problem is that a "diet" focus on either excluding or only including  limited types of foods so you end up with deficiencies in nutrients.  They also become monotonous and difficult to follow long term. Variety.  Vegetarians have troubles getting enough complete protein and meat diets lose out on vitamins and minerals in fruits and vegetables.


The only non-diet diet is the seafood diet and I'm pretty sure you'll agree that diet is not healthy either. I don't know how vegetarians have trouble getting complete protein unless they eat a low calorie vegetarian diet. 

What "diet" do you recommend and if you say a balanced diet, please be detailed in what that means.

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## farreri

> Been on the Paleo diet for 4 years.  Works great and I feel fantastic.  Energy, Energy and more Energy


Just wait! For everyone's information, what diets have you been on before Paleo?

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## heavenlyboy34

> The problem is that a "diet" focus on either excluding or only including  limited types of foods so you end up with deficiencies in nutrients.  They also become monotonous and difficult to follow long term. Variety.


Agree. That's why I prefer a "nutrition plan" to a "diet". More emphasis on the value and effect of food that way-which is more important for most people. Can't verify, but I've heard that powerlifters just eat a whole lot without giving a $#@! so much as it helps them lift MOAR. That's why powerlifters tend to be fatty even though they can deadlift 1000 lbs.

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## Zippyjuan

Grain protein sources are not complete proteins- they do not have all of the amino acids we need. Grains can be combined with say rice to be a more complete protein but you need to carefully balance what you eat to get them. 

"Diet" to me means not focusing on anything in particular but consuming a variety of foods- meat, vegetables, fruits, grains- and none of them in large quantities.  Even sugar is fine if you are not consuming too much of it. People ignore fruits because they are afraid of sugar in it while they miss out on the vitamins fruits contain.   Moderation in everything. 




> The only non-diet diet is the seafood diet and I'm pretty sure you'll agree that diet is not healthy either.


How is that not a "diet"?  Focusing on one thing?

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## Zippyjuan

> Agree. That's why I prefer a "nutrition plan" to a "diet". More emphasis on the value and effect of food that way-which is more important for most people. Can't verify, but I've heard that powerlifters just eat a whole lot without giving a $#@! so much as it helps them lift MOAR. That's why powerlifters tend to be fatty even though they can deadlift 1000 lbs.


Power lifters also tend to die younger than most people.  Sumo wrestlers even younger.  Their goal is not to be healthy but to get as big as they can.

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## heavenlyboy34

> Power lifters also tend to die younger than most people.  Sumo wrestlers even younger.  Their goal is not to be healthy but to get as big as they can.


Sure. But that's beside the point.

ETA: Not all sumo wrestlers are HUGE. Weight classes tend to begin at under 200 lbs and go upward from there. http://idahosumo.webs.com/rulesandweightclasses.htm  Lyoto Machida has a high kyu in it, but you wouldn't guess by looking at him.

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## farreri

> Agree. That's why I prefer a "nutrition plan" to a "diet".


Semantics. Both mean restricting something you think is bad. The word diet is vilified because people associate it with having to restrict total calorie intake, which I agree never works, but it can also mean restricting certain types of food without restricting total calories, like low fat, low carb, or gluten-free diets.

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## farreri

> Grain protein sources are not complete proteins- they do not have all of the amino acids we need. Grains can be combined with say rice to be a more complete protein but you need to carefully balance what you eat to get them.


No one eats just one plant food.  You don't have to worry about carefully balance so much as getting enough calories in.




> People ignore fruits because they are afraid of sugar in it while they miss out on the vitamins fruits contain.


Thank the low carb and especially paleo gurus for making everyone fruit phobic!




> Moderation in everything.


As long as you know what amount to moderate it to which has been the million dollar question in the dietary world.




> How is that not a "diet"?  Focusing on one thing?


You forgot to click on the link. 
http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...m=seafood+diet




> Power lifters also tend to die younger than most people.  Sumo wrestlers even younger.  Their goal is not to be healthy but to get as big as they can.


Totally agree on that!

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## anaconda

> It's time to put all this Paleo and other animal-based low carb diet nonsense to rest once and for all.
> 
> 
> *The Problem With the Paleo Diet Argument*
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx0pOGVMntM
> 
> *Paleo Diets May Negate Benefits of Exercise*
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFIEUjh0jpI
> 
> ...


Inuits eat only whale, salmon, and seal and have perfect health.

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## VIDEODROME

I've seen powerlifters in competition suddenly just vomit.  Fitness and Bodybuilding is good, but holy $#@!.

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## heavenlyboy34

> I've seen powerlifters in competition suddenly just vomit.  Fitness and Bodybuilding is good, but holy $#@!.


I'm fairly sure that it's the most brutal sport a body can be put through except strongman.

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## Schifference

I think the problem is that most people that have or had weight issues have/had them because they consumed too many carbohydrates and too much processed food. Restricting carbohydrates to a minimum so that your body can utilize the stored fat as an energy source is an effective way to loose unwanted pounds. After losing the unwanted weight it is wise to remember what was eaten prior to the weight loss. Furthermore foods that are high in carbohydrates and processed foods are convenient, taste good, probably intentionally addictive and easy to abuse. Eating natural, wholesome food is key. It is easy and wise to be aware of the carbohydrate intake and limit it to a desirable quantity. I honestly don't think all the obese people walking around are obese because they ate too much protein or didn't eat enough carbohydrates.

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## farreri

> Inuits eat only whale, salmon, and seal and have perfect health.


Not sure if srs, but in case you are, you clearing didn't check out the links I posted. I'll give you some snippets.

- "Eskimos have a similar prevalence of CAD (coronary artery disease) as non-Eskimo populations, they have excessive mortality due to cerebrovascular strokes, their overall mortality is twice as high as that of non-Eskimo populations, and their life expectancy is approximately 10 years shorter than the Danish population."

- Mummified remains of Eskimos dating back 2,000 years have shown extensive hardening of the arteries throughout their brains, hearts and limbs--two Eskimo women, one in her twenties and the other in her forties, frozen for five centuries in a tomb of ice. When discovered and medically examined they both showed signs of severe osteoporosis and also suffered extensive atherosclerosis, "probably the result of a heavy diet of whale and seal blubber."

- Alaskan Eskimos older than age 40 have been found to have a 10% to 15% greater deficit in bone mineral density compared to Caucasians in the US. 


The infamous Bang and Dyerberg study has been disproven over and over again.

*Fishing for the Origins of the Eskimos and Heart Disease Story: Facts or Wishful Thinking?*
"During the 1970s, 2 Danish investigators, Bang and Dyerberg, on being informed that the Greenland Eskimos had a low prevalence of coronary artery disease (CAD) set out to study the diet of this population-- In view of data... Most studies found that *the Greenland Eskimos and the Canadian and Alaskan Inuit have CAD as often as the non-Eskimo populations*. Notably, Bang and Dyerberg's studies from the 1970s did not investigate the prevalence of CAD in this population; *however, their reports are still routinely cited as evidence* for the cardioprotective effect of the Eskimo diet. We discuss the possible motives leading to the misinterpretation of these seminal studies."
http://www.onlinecjc.ca/article/S082...237-2/abstract
*Eskimos have CHD despite high consumption of omega-3 fatty acids: the Alaska Siberia project.*
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16277122


Omega 3's didn't help the Inuit people much.

*Consumption of omega-3 fatty acids is not associated with a reduction in carotid atherosclerosis: the Genetics of Coronary Artery Disease in Alaska Natives study.* CONCLUSIONS: Dietary intake of omega-3 FAs in a moderate-to-high range does not appear to be associated with reduced plaque, but is negatively associated with IMT. The presence and extent of carotid atherosclerosis among Eskimos is higher with increasing consumption of saturated FAs.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18054937


There is the theory that only way Omega 3 did helped the Eskimos is the high amounts they ate acted like aspirin and thinned their blood so much they were able to survive longer than people normal would with such a high presence of atherosclerosis!


The truth of the matter is the Eskimos diet was poor, caused a lot of health problems, and they _barely_ got enough of key nutrients making them lucky to even survive as a group.

You all have been snookered by these Paleo gurus. They are just telling you good things about your bad habits. Get off that crap diet before your arteries fully harden.

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## farreri

> Restricting carbohydrates to a minimum so that your body can utilize the stored fat as an energy source is an effective way to loose unwanted pounds.


People on true low fat diets lose weight too. In fact, the experts promoting low fat diets are much leaner than the experts promoting the low carb diets.




> Furthermore foods that are high in carbohydrates and processed foods are convenient, taste good, probably intentionally addictive and easy to abuse.


If you look closely, those packaged foods are also high in fat. 




> It is easy and wise to be aware of the carbohydrate intake and limit it to a desirable quantity.


Limit protein and fat. The longterm evidence proves this.




> I honestly don't think all the obese people walking around are obese because they ate too much protein or didn't eat enough carbohydrates.


They ate too much protein and fat along with processed carbs.

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## Schifference

When I look around me I see many people that are overweight, fat, or obese. I agree with many people that variety is a good thing. I don't understand why people that have found success with the eating program have to argue with others that have found success with theirs. If it works for you and you are happy with it, then good for you. I see and hear many heavy people that claim to eat healthy low fat diets that have an ongoing struggle with weight. I see people that go to low carb and shed lots of weight. The low fat people speak of how the whole grains are good for them and that the fruit is great because it is a natural sugar. I see these people all the time at work. They are still obese. They also speak of going to the gym and working out and how important exercise is. I too think exercise is good but don't think it is necessary to lose weight. I think the key is to be able to keep the weight off once you lose it. I cared for a diabetic once that told me that she got her diabetes because she like to eat grapes. I had a nurses aid tell me the other morning that her blood sugar was high and that she was going to stop drinking coffee because when she doesn't drink coffee her blood sugar levels are good and her doctor thinks it is due to the milk she puts in her coffee. I would think that it is highly unlikely that the milk in her coffee is causing her hyperglycemia.

My point is if you are low fat and healthy and happy and someone else is Paleo and healthy and happy they are both better off than most people riding motorized scooters at the grocery store.

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## Chester Copperpot

> When I look around me I see many people that are overweight, fat, or obese. I agree with many people that variety is a good thing. I don't understand why people that have found success with the eating program have to argue with others that have found success with theirs. If it works for you and you are happy with it, then good for you. I see and hear many heavy people that claim to eat healthy low fat diets that have an ongoing struggle with weight. I see people that go to low carb and shed lots of weight. The low fat people speak of how the whole grains are good for them and that the fruit is great because it is a natural sugar. I see these people all the time at work. They are still obese. They also speak of going to the gym and working out and how important exercise is. I too think exercise is good but don't think it is necessary to lose weight. I think the key is to be able to keep the weight off once you lose it. I cared for a diabetic once that told me that she got her diabetes because she like to eat grapes. I had a nurses aid tell me the other morning that her blood sugar was high and that she was going to stop drinking coffee because when she doesn't drink coffee her blood sugar levels are good and her doctor thinks it is due to the milk she puts in her coffee. I would think that it is highly unlikely that the milk in her coffee is causing her hyperglycemia.
> 
> My point is if you are low fat and healthy and happy and someone else is Paleo and healthy and happy they are both better off than most people riding motorized scooters at the grocery store.


Exactly.. I concur wholeheartedly with you.

FWIW your nurses aid with the coffee & blood sugar story.. the caffeine in the coffee will tend to deplete one's magnesium stores.. and with low magnesium comes higher blood sugar.

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## specsaregood

./

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## dannno

> CSU scientist and author of The Paleo Diet, Loren Cordain responds to U-C Davis Scientist and co-author of the New Atkins, Steve Phinneys discussion on Pemmican.  This interview includes Lorens opinion that saturated fats DO increase plaque in the arteries.  However, Loren says, this only becomes very hazardous when saturated fats are eaten in combination with grains, beans, dairy, high-sugar foods or other foods that tend to increase inflammation.  Cordain says the combination of saturated fats and inflammatory foods such as grains is a deadly formula for a heart attack.
> 
> 
> ....
> 
> 
> *Ive always stated that, and Ive been misquoted so often on this saturated fat issue and atherosclerosis*. The devils in the detail. So I believe these Inuit women who had never been exposed to Western Food did indeed have atherosclerosis.
> 
> _They had a lot of plaque in their arteries, they had hardening of the arteries, but did that mean they had a heart attack?_
> ...


http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2010/...er-march-25th/

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## Mad Raven

This reminds me of how Ron Paul fans sling mud at Rand. Rand is miles better than the others, but because he's second best, he's as bad as the worst?

Health conscious vegans and paleos actually have a lot in common in avoiding the worst stuff like heavily processed foods and added sugar. Some people can eat anything. Rich Froening eats all kinds of crap that I wouldn't be able to at my lower level of fitness. As a rough but not hard and fast rule, the better shape you're in the more your system can take, because true fitness reflects overall health.

Sometimes people who are bellicose about these things are battling health issues and project their battle onto others.

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## dannno

> This reminds me of how Ron Paul fans sling mud at Rand. Rand is miles better than the others, but because he's second best, he's as bad as the worst?
> 
> Health conscious vegans and paleos actually have a lot in common in avoiding the worst stuff like heavily processed foods and added sugar. Some people can eat anything. Rich Froening eats all kinds of crap that I wouldn't be able to at my lower level of fitness. As a rough but not hard and fast rule, the better shape you're in the more your system can take, because true fitness reflects overall health.
> 
> Sometimes people who are bellicose about these things are battling health issues and project their battle onto others.


Ya, I have nothing against a vegetarian diet - it's far better than the SAD if done well.. but I think paleo is more optimal, I don't have the roller coaster carb effect going on all the time, I can get all the things my body needs out of my food without having to take supplements (with the possible exception of vitamin D which doesn't come from foods)

That is the only issue I've ever had with Mark Scisson, is that he treats the vegans and vegetarians like the enemy instead of the SAD. The OP is basically doing the same thing in reverse.

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## Mad Raven

> Ya, I have nothing against a vegetarian diet - it's far better than the SAD if done well.. but I think paleo is more optimal, I don't have the roller coaster carb effect going on all the time, I can get all the things my body needs out of my food without having to take supplements (with the possible exception of vitamin D which doesn't come from foods)
> 
> That is the only issue I've ever had with Mark Scisson, is that he treats the vegans and vegetarians like the enemy instead of the SAD. The OP is basically doing the same thing in reverse.


Funny you mention Mark Scisson. He recently was talking on Joe Rogan about that, basically agreeing. Or maybe it was Joe making that point. But of course there are also those "dirty" vegans who will eat anything that isn't meat.

I like avoiding the roller coaster carb thing too. Insanely hungry 3 hours after a bowl of rice... no thanks. Personally I feel like I should eat less meat, because I do really well on tons of vegetables, but I'll get there eventually.

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## Schifference

My ex-wifes sister was/is a vegetarian for many years. She is also a Seventh Day Adventist. She was/is huge/morbidly obese. Years ago she would criticize me when I was very physically fit in my mid/late 20's for eating the wrong food. She was stuffing her face with all kinds of crap and had the audacity to criticize others.

Once again whatever works. I don't know anyone that went low carb that did not lose weight. I know many people that fail counting calories. I think low fat with carbs can work but the results would probably not be as fast as low carb. The key is how/what we eat once our weight goals are accomplished and if we can stick with it. 

I have no problem going to a restaurant and eating. The other day was my wife's birthday. We went to a Mexican restaurant. I did not eat any of the tortilla chips. I ordered steak fajita's. I did not eat the flour tortilla's. I ate the meat and vegetables with some cheese and it was good. I brought home enough leftovers for another meal.

I have to know myself and be aware of my shortcomings. I know from experience that some foods would probably trigger a poor eating relapse. So if I am very satisfied today when not eating them why eat them on a special occasion tomorrow? That is like the alcoholic having a special occasion drink. Why risk it? Find what works for you and stick with it.

The thought just hit me is the Vegetarian/Vegan criticizes the person that eats meat. The Paleo person does eat vegetables. Everyone can agree that too many bad carbohydrates are not good for you. Hmm seems like the Veg/Vegans know what is best for everyone and should be in charge of what others should be eating because others cannot figure it out for themselves.

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## farreri

> I see and hear many heavy people that claim to eat healthy low fat diets that have an ongoing struggle with weight.


That's right, they "claim" to eat healthy low fat diet, but are they really doing that? There is still debate about what's truly low fat. 




> I see people that go to low carb and shed lots of weight.


I was talking to a person the other day who's on this low carb kick. He only was eating one meal a day. No wonder he was losing weight.  




> The low fat people speak of how the whole grains are good for them and that the fruit is great because it is a natural sugar. I see these people all the time at work. They are still obese.


Look at all the doctors who advocate a true low fat diet. They are all thin.




> I cared for a diabetic once that told me that she got her diabetes because she like to eat grapes.


Do you really think she got diabetes from grapes?!




> My point is if you are low fat and healthy and happy and someone else is Paleo and healthy and happy they are both better off than most people riding motorized scooters at the grocery store.


True, but I don't want to die of heart disease, stroke, or diabetes later on in life. Diet is more than just losing weight.




> My ex-wifes sister was/is a vegetarian for many years. She is also a Seventh Day Adventist. She was/is huge/morbidly obese.


There are many ways to eat a vegetarian diet. I had a vegetarian neighbor who had cheese or eggs at every meal. I referred to her as the animal-based vegetarian. Lots of vegetarians eat all that packaged vegetarian food crap that are high in oils. The point is don't just go by the label of the diet. You have to know exactly what they eat and how much to make a judgement.

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## farreri

Dr. Uffe Ravnskov: There is no evidence that too much animal fat and cholesterol in the diet promotes atherosclerosis
http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol/

Loren Cordain: But to unequivocally say that saturated fats do not cause atherosclerosis, is sheer folly. We know that they do. 
http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2010/...er-march-25th/

You tell em, Cordain!






> _This interview includes Lorens opinion that saturated fats DO increase plaque in the arteries._ 
> 
> They had only eaten what Steve Phinney had suggested people eatfat and proteinand *significant atherosclerosis in a 53 year old Inuit woman*
> 
> _They had a lot of plaque in their arteries, they had hardening of the arteries, but did that mean they had a heart attack?_
> 
> No!


Why didn't Cordain even speak about how Eskimos had high rates of stroke? Totally irresponsible for him to not bring that up, borderlining on criminal.




> Extensive atherosclerosis was in the older woman, who was 30. All three of them were osteoporotic. They were severely osteoporotic on that type of diet. So you can give this to people who claim that all we need to eat is meat and fat.


At least he agrees the Eskimo diet that low carbers love to hail was total crap.




> A high carbohydrate diet combined with a high saturated fat diet is even worse.


Glad even he realizes that. People were healthy on a high carb diet --Blue Zones diet is proof--until people started combing too much saturated fat to their high carb diets.




> We realize that trans fats are not good for us, and junk food potato chips are not healthy foods.


Potato chips are junk food because they are fried in oil. Don't blame the low fat potatoes.

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## farreri

> I can get all the things my body needs out of my food without having to take supplements (with the possible exception of vitamin D which doesn't come from foods)


What supplements did you have to take on your vegetarian diet besides D?




> That is the only issue I've ever had with Mark Scisson, is that he treats the vegans and vegetarians like the enemy instead of the SAD.


Because those diets mean less money for him.




> The OP is basically doing the same thing in reverse.


No, I agree SAD is the worse diet, followed closely by low carb diets.

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## farreri

> But of course there are also those "dirty" vegans who will eat anything that isn't meat.


I learned this too. When people talk about being vegan, you assume they all eat the same. Far from. I think most vegans eat a crap version of the diet, either too much oils and nut butters, or super low calorie versions by anorexic girls.




> I like avoiding the roller coaster carb thing too. Insanely hungry 3 hours after a bowl of rice... no thanks.


Maybe that's because you had only one bowl of rice. 




> Personally I feel like I should eat less meat, because I do really well on tons of vegetables, but I'll get there eventually.


You are really going to roller coaster on a diet of a lot of vegetables being that they hardly have any calories in them, comparatively.

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## willwash

When I meet Paleo people I always say things like:

Cave men didn't have toothpaste, either.  Should I stop brushing my teeth?

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## Schifference

I just purchased a meat grinder last night on eBay. I plan to grind some of my rabbit meat with the bones for human and canine consumption. I would like to eat bone. I think there are vitamins and or nutrients in them. 

I have a couple of dogs. One is a Boxer. He is only like 5 years old but looks like he is 15. He was walking slow. Lying around most of the time and had trouble walking. A few months ago I cut back on his kibble and began giving him 2 whole fresh eggs from our free range chickens every evening with the shells. In the last week we cut the kibble out completely for him. He gets 4 whole raw eggs in the morning and a pound or so of raw meat in the evening. Tonight we added some green beans. He has lost weight and is ambulating much better and spending more time on his feet. The Doberman is reluctant to eat the raw meat. The boxer loves it. I have been giving store bought chicken because that is all I have at this time. I plan to raise many more rabbits as soon as it warms up a little. I love rabbit and would take it over beef, chicken, turkey or any other meat.  I might try to get good at deboning the rabbit and then grinding the bones separate. Tried it once but struggled. This guy makes it look easy.

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## specsaregood

> When I meet Paleo people I always say things like:
> 
> Cave men didn't have toothpaste, either.  Should I stop brushing my teeth?


What makes you think he didn't have "toothpaste" of some sort?  Cavemen had toothbrushes; it doesn't seem to unreasonable to me to think he might have lubricated or freshened his breath with something.  Hell, maybe he used something that naturally contains xylitol which kills the bacteria that causes cavities and aids in remineralizing teeth.   just saying....

edit: fwiw http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...nt-evolve.html

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## Chester Copperpot

> Funny you mention Mark Scisson. He recently was talking on Joe Rogan about that, basically agreeing. Or maybe it was Joe making that point. But of course there are also those "dirty" vegans who will eat anything that isn't meat.
> 
> I like avoiding the roller coaster carb thing too. Insanely hungry 3 hours after a bowl of rice... no thanks. Personally I feel like I should eat less meat, because I do really well on tons of vegetables, but I'll get there eventually.


dirty vegan
.never heard that term before.. i know a vegan like that.. eats absolute garbage.. ice cream and phony vegan 'meat' loaded with enough chemicals to choke a horse and at the same time equates me with a child molestor because i eat hamburgers... some vegans are completely out of their minds.. especially when they start having serious health issues and blame themself for not being vegan enough.. its like trying to vote harder.

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## Chester Copperpot

> I just purchased a meat grinder last night on eBay. I plan to grind some of my rabbit meat with the bones for human and canine consumption. I would like to eat bone. I think there are vitamins and or nutrients in them. 
> 
> I have a couple of dogs. One is a Boxer. He is only like 5 years old but looks like he is 15. He was walking slow. Lying around most of the time and had trouble walking. A few months ago I cut back on his kibble and began giving him 2 whole fresh eggs from our free range chickens every evening with the shells. In the last week we cut the kibble out completely for him. He gets 4 whole raw eggs in the morning and a pound or so of raw meat in the evening. Tonight we added some green beans. He has lost weight and is ambulating much better and spending more time on his feet. The Doberman is reluctant to eat the raw meat. The boxer loves it. I have been giving store bought chicken because that is all I have at this time. I plan to raise many more rabbits as soon as it warms up a little. I love rabbit and would take it over beef, chicken, turkey or any other meat.  I might try to get good at deboning the rabbit and then grinding the bones separate. Tried it once but struggled. This guy makes it look easy.


May i suggest making bone broth... easy as pie

----------


## Schifference

> May i suggest making bone broth... easy as pie


Yes I have made some bone broth. But I bought the grinder thinking that I could grind raw bones and meat with ease and store it frozen in precise quantity taking up less space than freezing the entire animal or pieces and have a different texture for different applications. Also I thought I could possibly grind several meats together to compliment them. If I could debone a rabbit as easily as this guy, I could also store compact boneless rabbit meat and grind the bones with another rabbit for the dogs or keep them separate as just another option.

----------


## farreri

> for the dogs


I can agree there. Paleo is for the dogs!

----------


## farreri

Speaking of animals such as dogs, one part of the paleo theory that I've never heard explained is why they think humans with a very long digestive tracks should eat a diet closer related to canines with very short digestive tracks? Non-human apes have basically the same long digestive tracks as humans, but their diet is closer to the diets of herbivore animals who also have long digestive tracks. What's the rationale?

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Speaking of animals such as dogs, one part of the paleo theory that I've never heard explained is why they think humans with a very long digestive tracks should eat a diet closer related to canines with very short digestive tracks? Non-human apes have basically the same long digestive tracks as humans, but their diet is closer to the diets of herbivore animals who also have long digestive tracks. What's the rationale?


I can't speak for Paleo people, but I personally eat a lot of protein (meat and non-meat) because that's the best proven way to build and maintain muscle.

----------


## specsaregood

..

----------


## dbill27

First of all, the eskimo comparison doesn't really fly. There are very few Eskimo's alive eating completely traditional diets, they have doritos and cigarettes and sodas just like all of us so any study or observations of modern day eskimos is right off the bat pretty suspect. Second of all, even traditional eskimo diets would be on the extreme side of something resembling the paleo diet. 90 plus percent of hunter-gatherer diets included much more plant material and more varied diets than people living on the arctic ocean, I would think that would be obviously apparent. Paleo people like to bring up Eskimo's precisely because their extreme diets disproves many beliefs about diet and nutrition. Some of the first arctic explorers to come in contact with these people came back and told people they could live a year off of only animals and people didn't even believe it possible. Furthermore, people in these arctic enviroments eating these extremely different diets than the modern western diet were lacking many of the problems we have today like diabetes, cancer etc. So with that being said, eat more meat, fat and a whole lot less sugar and carbohydrates but realize you shouldn't only eat whale 24/7

----------


## farreri

> I can't speak for Paleo people, but I personally eat a lot of protein (meat and non-meat) because that's the best proven way to build and maintain muscle.


Actually steroids are and they are much more kind to animals.

----------


## farreri

> First of all, the eskimo comparison doesn't really fly. There are very few Eskimo's alive eating completely traditional diets, they have doritos and cigarettes and sodas just like all of us so any study or observations of modern day eskimos is right off the bat pretty suspect.


Autopsies on very old Eskimos frozen in ice revealed mass amounts of atherosclerosis.




> Furthermore, people in these arctic enviroments eating these extremely different diets than the modern western diet were lacking many of the problems we have today like diabetes, cancer etc. So with that being said, eat more meat, fat and a whole lot less sugar and carbohydrates but realize you shouldn't only eat whale 24/7


But they had HIGHER incidences of atherosclerosis/stroke. Is that any better?

----------


## farreri

I'll ask my question again. 

Speaking of animals such as dogs, one part of the paleo theory that I've never heard explained is why they think humans with a very long digestive tracks should eat a diet closer related to canines with very short digestive tracks? Non-human apes have basically the same long digestive tracks as humans, but their diet is closer to the diets of herbivore animals who also have long digestive tracks. What's the rationale?

----------


## Suzanimal

> I'll ask my question again. 
> 
> Speaking of animals such as dogs, one part of the paleo theory that I've never heard explained is why they think humans with a very long digestive tracks should eat a diet closer related to canines with very short digestive tracks? Non-human apes have basically the same long digestive tracks as humans, but their diet is closer to the diets of herbivore animals who also have long digestive tracks. What's the rationale?


My dog's not strict Paleo. He loves bread and sometimes he eats doo doo (are dried up turds Paleo?).

----------


## farreri

> I'll ask my question again. 
> 
> Speaking of animals such as dogs, one part of the paleo theory that I've never heard explained is why they think humans with a very long digestive tracks should eat a diet closer related to canines with very short digestive tracks? Non-human apes have basically the same long digestive tracks as humans, but their diet is closer to the diets of herbivore animals who also have long digestive tracks. What's the rationale?


Bump

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> Bump


I dont have an answer for your question.. Im also not sure if length of digestive track is relevant.  Im sure someone out there justifies a heavy meat diet because a long digestive track can break it down better..

Anyways, its interesting that a gorilla in the wild will eat 5 GRAMS a day of vitamin c from natural sources... thats an incredible amount of food.. approximately 83 oranges a day...

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> My dog's not strict Paleo. He loves bread and sometimes he eats doo doo (are dried up turds Paleo?).


FWIW try some einkhorn wheat sometime or some sprouted grain breads... some good stuff IMO. im too lazy to make einkhorn bread so i usually just make pancakes or waffles... taste excellent..and the grains are very good for certain nutrients like magnesium

----------


## farreri

> I dont have an answer for your question.. Im also not sure if length of digestive track is relevant.  Im sure someone out there justifies a heavy meat diet because a long digestive track can break it down better..


But predatory animals, like cats & dogs, have short to medium-long digestive tracks whereas plant-based animals have long ones like humans. Why would humans be some kind of exception? 




> Anyways, its interesting that a gorilla in the wild will eat 5 GRAMS a day of vitamin c from natural sources... thats an incredible amount of food.. approximately 83 oranges a day...


This brings up another great point against the paleo diet. Human bodies used to be able to make Vitamin C, but stopped because we got so much Vitamin C from food it was inefficient for our bodies to continue to have to make it. Cats & dogs both can make Vitamin C. 

Doesn't humans having long digestive tracks and unable to make Vitamin C on our own prove we need to follow a mostly plant diet?

----------


## farreri

Btw, where did this notion come from that the "caveman" ate a meat-based diet? I'm assuming that's what started this whole paleo diet fad.

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> But predatory animals, like cats & dogs, have short to medium-long digestive tracks whereas plant-based animals have long ones like humans. Why would humans be some kind of exception? 
> Again Im not sure if its a relevant comparison. Predatory animals also have forward looking eyes - stereoscopic vision. That fits dogs, cats, and humans too.. Someone else could say that justifies a carnivorous diet.
> 
> This brings up another great point against the paleo diet. Human bodies used to be able to make Vitamin C, but stopped because we got so much Vitamin C from food it was inefficient for our bodies to continue to have to make it. Cats & dogs both can make Vitamin C. 
> I dont think anybody knows what the reason is that our bodies dont make vitamin c. Ive read people guess it was a mutation. Maybe we never did.. But I dont think anybody can ever know for sure what happened.
> 
> Doesn't humans having long digestive tracks and unable to make Vitamin C on our own prove we need to follow a mostly plant diet?


Theres plenty of evidence that mostly plant based diets are healthy for people. I dont think theres any need to couple it with some other reason that in itself may have no merit... Theres no need.. Plants have a tremendous amount of nutrition.. the data speaks well for eating plants... Im not sure you understand paleo well either.. from my understanding there is no reason not to eat fruits and vegetables on a paleo type of diet. Its mainly avoiding processed foods and grains.

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> Btw, where did this notion come from that the "caveman" ate a meat-based diet? I'm assuming that's what started this whole paleo diet fad.


i think its because people are in a rush to lose body fat so they figure go for low carb for fastest bodyfat loss. Some people do well with it.... They seem to lose their blood sugar issues/diabetes etc etc... different strokes for different folks

----------


## The Northbreather

> Speaking of animals such as dogs, one part of the paleo theory that I've never heard explained is why they think humans with a very long digestive tracks should eat a diet closer related to canines with very short digestive tracks? Non-human apes have basically the same long digestive tracks as humans, but their diet is closer to the diets of herbivore animals who also have long digestive tracks. What's the rationale?


There are some straight up disturbing videos on YouTube of chimpanzees ( genetically closest great ape) hunting and eating lesser primates/monkeys. They love to eat them and probably would more often if they were easier to catch.

If I could embed the vids I would but you'll have search yourself

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> There are some straight up disturbing videos on YouTube of chimpanzees ( genetically closest great ape) hunting and eating lesser primates/monkeys. They love to eat them and probably would more often if they were easier to catch.
> 
> If I could embed the vids I would but you'll have search yourself


they certainly hate humanss too... if i had to pick i think id feel safer with a gorilla than a chimpanzee

----------


## farreri

> Again Im not sure if its a relevant comparison. Predatory animals also have forward looking eyes - stereoscopic vision. That fits dogs, cats, and humans too.. Someone else could say that justifies a carnivorous diet.


All frugivore animals have forward looking eyes too and they all have much longer digestive tracks than predatory animals.




> I dont think anybody knows what the reason is that our bodies dont make vitamin c. Ive read people guess it was a mutation. Maybe we never did.. But I dont think anybody can ever know for sure what happened.


Humans don't make Vitamin C. Fruit is high in Vitamin C. The rest of the great apes are frugivores (exception with gorillas who are more foliage eating, but still plant-based). Humans have virtually identical digestive systems as the rest of the great apes. Doesn't that pretty much say humans are supposed to be plant-based? 




> Im not sure you understand paleo well either.. from my understanding there is no reason not to eat fruits and vegetables on a paleo type of diet. Its mainly avoiding processed foods and grains.


Paleo advocates against high calorie sweet fruits and emphasis low sweet fruits like berries and the reason is paleo is just a modified low carb ketosis diet and too much fruit would keep you out of ketosis. The real point of the diet is to try to find a healthier way to eat lots of meat. Let's just be real.

----------


## farreri

> i think its because people are in a rush to lose body fat so they figure go for low carb for fastest bodyfat loss.


We are in total agreement there!

----------


## farreri

> There are some straight up disturbing videos on YouTube of chimpanzees ( genetically closest great ape) hunting and eating lesser primates/monkeys. They love to eat them and probably would more often if they were easier to catch.


Maybe there is a good reason nature made it hard for the great apes to be hunters. Look what's it's done to the health of humans:

*Leading Causes of Death: Heart Disease & Cancer*
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ase-amp-Cancer

----------


## RJB

I notice people who support paleo type diets usually report how much better they are doing on it and some science on why it is helping them. 

Usually vegetarian threads do little to support vegetarianism, but rather attack the other side with guilt, horror stories, or quasi-religious arguments.  If your diet works well for you, great, sing its praises.  However, telling people the diet that has helped them is no good doesn't work as well.

----------


## specsaregood

//

----------


## farreri

> I notice people who support paleo type diets usually report how much better they are doing on it and some science on why it is helping them.


A lot of people I've read who say they felt better on paleo either come from eating SAD or low calorie diets, so of course they are going to feel better at first!




> I've done so well on the primal blueprint *for a few years now* that I wouldn't hesitate it to recommend it to almost anybody that hasn't tried it.   Experience trumps forum scaremongers.


That's the problem, most people singing the praises of these low carb fad diets have only been on them for a few years, so there is no long term evidence yet.

----------


## specsaregood

//

----------


## farreri

I added this entry to my OP.

Early human ancestors were not predominantly meat eaters, but frugivores just like most of the other great apes.

*Teeth Show Fruit Was The Staple; No Exceptions Found*
BALTIMORE PRELIMINARY studies of fossil teeth have led an anthropologist to the startling suggestion that early human ancestors were not predominantly meat eaters or even eaters of seeds, shoots, leaves or grasses. Nor were they omnivorous. Instead, they appear to have subsisted chiefly on a diet of fruit. 
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...639C946890D6CF
full article http://health101.org/art_diet2.htm


How did our species go from frugivore to predominately meat-eater as paleo advocates suggest?

----------


## farreri

> Meh, my doctor says I'm doing great and to keep it up.  My wife (a nurse) says the same.  I'll take the advice of those two medical experts over you, thanks for the concern.


Are they medical experts in nutrition? I hope so for your sake.

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> All frugivore animals have forward looking eyes too and they all have much longer digestive tracks than predatory animals.
> 
> 
> Humans don't make Vitamin C. Fruit is high in Vitamin C. The rest of the great apes are frugivores (exception with gorillas who are more foliage eating, but still plant-based). Humans have virtually identical digestive systems as the rest of the great apes. Doesn't that pretty much say humans are supposed to be plant-based? 
> There is so much more that is unknown than known that its hard to know. IMO one particular data point isnt enough to be conclusive..There are so many other potential factors at play here...
> 
> Paleo advocates against high calorie sweet fruits and emphasis low sweet fruits like berries and the reason is paleo is just a modified low carb ketosis diet and too much fruit would keep you out of ketosis. The real point of the diet is to try to find a healthier way to eat lots of meat. Let's just be real.


I know paleo advocates who say this, however then they shouldnt use the name paleo.. Cavemen would eat bananas, and apples and raw honey and milk for that matter if they could get it. For people who have been on a standard processed food diet and have PUFAs trapped in their fat tissues, going into ketosis can damage their thyroid. But for those who feel better on it, good for them.

----------


## Chester Copperpot

FWIW, the only reason I even know about paleo is because I stumbled into it one day, viz:

One day I decided I would try to imagine what jack lalanne would let himself eat and I decided to eat just that... so i cut out anything and everything with white sugar, white flour, and white grains or anykind:white wheat, white rice etc. etc..

The effect.. I lost between 3.5-4lbs a week... even if I went out to buffets for lunch 3 times  a week.

I did this for about 6 weeks - lost 24lbs..and I decided to have some whole wheat bread from amish.. weight loss immediately stopped. (I like to experiment with these things to figure stuff out)

----------


## Zippyjuan

LaLanne was certainly not a paleo eater. He advocated lots of fruits and vegetables. Low fats. Very low.  And lots of exercise. 

http://www.livescience.com/35408-jac...ce-110124.html




> Eat more fruits and vegetables
> 
> LaLanne touted eating more fruits and vegetables long before Amerians were familiar with the "5-a-day" public health message. Studies over the past several decades have further corroborated the importance of eating fruits and vegetables, Tallmadge said.
> 
> "It's one of the simplest things people can do to transform their health and their lives," said Tallmadge, who also authored "Diet Simple" (Lifeline Press, 2002).
> 
> "We know now that people who eat at least five cups [of fruits and vegetables] a day have lower blood pressure, lower cardiovascular disease, lower rates of cancer, they have a better immune response, usually they're leaner and have lower rates of diabetes and obesity," she said.
> 
> This message hasn't faded away because there is myriad research to back it up.
> ...


http://www.shareguide.com/LaLanne.html




> Share Guide: In your book you mention that you were a vegetarian at one point for 6 years.
> 
> Jack LaLanne: I was a strict vegetarian. Then I decided to enter a Mr. America contest (which I won) and in those days they thought that in order to build muscle you had to have meat. So I ate meat for a while.
> 
> Share Guide: Why did you stop being a strict vegetarian?
> 
> Jack LaLanne: In those days everybody was saying that you had to eat meat to build muscle, so I went on a meat thing for awhile.* NowI only eat fish--no chicken, no turkey, just fish. I get all my protein from fish and egg whites.
> *
> Share Guide: That is what my favorite healing authority says, Dr. Andrew Weil. He believes in eating fish and dairy on top of the vegetarian diet--the vegaquarian diet.
> ...

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> LaLanne was certainly not a paleo eater. He advocated lots of fruits and vegetables. Low fats. Very low.  And lots of exercise. 
> 
> http://www.livescience.com/35408-jac...ce-110124.html
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.shareguide.com/LaLanne.html


yes you are correct.. this was before I knew any of that.. I just knew that he definitely wouldnt want any of those processed white foods so i went with that at the time.. in the end Jack seemed to settle on a pescetarian diet.. I have no reason to argue with jack lalanne.. what he has forgotten about diet and exercise ill never know so i am happy to agree that a pescetarian diet probably is best. At least I know it works for me well

----------


## Ender

> When I meet Paleo people I always say things like:
> 
> Cave men didn't have toothpaste, either.  Should I stop brushing my teeth?


Actually- yes.

Brushing teeth can actually destroy the enamel, especially if overbrushed.

----------


## Ender

And, here's an interesting article about a vegan coming to grips with a diet that was killing her:

http://www.truthaboutabs.com/vegan-c...-problems.html

----------


## farreri

> I know paleo advocates who say this, however then they shouldnt use the name paleo.. Cavemen would eat


They should call their diet the low-carb/low-Omega 6 diet. Caveman ate a seafood diet. Since they most likely died of starvation, they would see food and eat it.

Btw, what diet do you follow? I don't want to assume you are low carb.

----------


## farreri

> "I get all my protein from fish and egg whites."
> 
> http://www.shareguide.com/LaLanne.html


Then he _only_ eats fish and egg whites because every food has protein.  

You can get all your amino acids and enough of them from plants.

----------


## farreri

> And, here's an interesting article about a vegan coming to grips with a diet that was killing her:
> 
> http://www.truthaboutabs.com/vegan-c...-problems.html


Why does she blame the vegan diet when she did it wrong?

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Then he _only_ eats fish and egg whites because every food has protein.  
> 
> You can get all your amino acids and *enough of them from plants.*


"Enough" for living, but not if you do much more than that. A nutrition plan for an athletic or otherwise highly active person is going to require a macronutrient balance very heavy in protein to maintain muscle and  stamina.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> "Enough" for living, but not if you do much more than that. A nutrition plan for an athletic or otherwise highly active person is going to require a macronutrient balance* very heavy in protein* to maintain muscle and  stamina.


If you are a professional body builder you may need to  "go very heavy" in protein but most people don't. Again we seem to be going from one extreme to another- no meat to lots of meat.  Both lead to imbalances.

----------


## farreri

> "Enough" for living, but not if you do much more than that. A nutrition plan for an athletic or otherwise highly active person is going to require a macronutrient balance very heavy in protein to maintain muscle and  stamina.


There's a lot of vegan athletes that prove your assertion wrong. What macronutrient ratio so you recommend for long distance athletes and what ratio for strength athletes?

----------


## farreri

> no meat to lots of meat.  Both lead to imbalances.


I have to disagree with you on that one, ZJ. Imbalances even on a strict plant-based diet are from doing it incorrectly.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> If you are a professional body builder you may need to  "go very heavy" in protein but most people don't. Again we seem to be going from one extreme to another- no meat to lots of meat.  Both lead to imbalances.


Read for comprehension, zip. That's what I said.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> I have to disagree with you on that one, ZJ. Imbalances even on a strict plant-based diet are from doing it incorrectly.


The problem with plant-based diets and nutrition plans is that they require a ridiculous amount of supplements to replace meat would otherwise provide. Vegans who avoid dairy and eggs have it even worse because whey and eggs are about the best protein sources for vegans. Some like pea protein or soy, but experience and the science I've reviewed so far indicate they are inferior forms of protein.

----------


## Ender

> Why does she blame the vegan diet when she did it wrong?


Try reading- it is your friend.

And the paleo diet is perfect for Blood Type Os; Blood Type A may do better on a vegan diet.

----------


## Zippyjuan

Vegetable proteins are incomplete proteins- you need to carefully combine them to get the right amounts of all of the amino acids you need. Whey (a dairy product) is considered a "complete" protein.

----------


## farreri

> The problem with plant-based diets and nutrition plans is that they require a ridiculous amount of supplements to replace meat would otherwise provide.


How many supplements do you think a vegan would need to be healthy?




> Vegans who avoid dairy and eggs have it even worse because whey and eggs are about the best protein sources for vegans. Some like pea protein or soy, but experience and the science I've reviewed so far indicate they are inferior forms of protein.


What do you mean by inferior forms of protein? How is 100 mg of leucine from plant sources any different from 100 mg from meat?

----------


## farreri

> Try reading- it is your friend.


I skimmed it, but saw her glaring mistakes, so why does she blame the diet when she didn't do the diet correctly?




> And the paleo diet is perfect for Blood Type Os; Blood Type A may do better on a vegan diet.


Blood type diet is quackery.

----------


## farreri

> Vegetable proteins are incomplete proteins- you need to carefully combine them to get the right amounts of all of the amino acids you need.


Can I ask for you to provide evidence for this?

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Vegetable proteins are incomplete proteins- you need to carefully combine them to get the right amounts of all of the amino acids you need. Whey (a dairy product) is considered a "complete" protein.


qft.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Can I ask for you to provide evidence for this?


There is a RIDICULOUS amount a literature proving Zip correct on that. Start here: http://www.builtlean.com/2012/10/03/...otein-sources/ 

The fact that almost every bodybuilder EVER has relied strongly on whey since it was created is because it $#@!ing works. Veggie proteins just aren't that effective.

----------


## specsaregood

> I skimmed it, but saw her glaring mistakes, so why does she blame the diet when she didn't do the diet correctly?


lol @ a diet that requires a biochemistry degree to get right.

----------


## farreri

> There is a RIDICULOUS amount a literature proving Zip correct on that. Start here: http://www.builtlean.com/2012/10/03/...otein-sources/


"Just because they are incomplete doesnt make them inferior"




> The fact that almost every bodybuilder EVER has relied strongly on whey since it was created is because it $#@!ing works. Veggie proteins just aren't that effective.


They also strongly rely on steroids. I don't equate being a bodybuilder as being healthy.

----------


## farreri

> lol @ a diet that requires a biochemistry degree to get right.


What kind of vegan diet requires that? The girl in your link made two glaring mistakes. One was the very obvious one of not taking B12. Let's see if you can guess the other one and I'll give you a hint, it's not having to supplement with K2.

----------


## Zippyjuan

http://www.myfit.ca/nutrition/incomp...mbinations.asp




> Incomplete proteins are foods containing low protein or only some of the nine amino acids that you need in your diet. *Usually, vegetable protein (plant-based proteins) is considered incomplete as it lacks one or more of the nine essential amino acids.* Incomplete proteins can be combined to make available all of the essential amino acids and form a complete protein.
> 
> 
>  Include both complete and incomplete proteins into your diet. Complete proteins hold all the necessary amino acids. Most animal foods, such as meat, poultry, fish, cheese and milk are complete proteins. Some plant proteins, eggs, soybean products such as tofu are also complete proteins.
> Choosing a variety of protein foods will make sure that you acquire all the essential nutrients. To provide your body with all the necessary amino acids, join two incomplete proteins together. In addition, when preparing a meal, you can pair incomplete protein with a small amount of complete protein. In most diets, a mixture of animal and plant protein is suggested.
> 
> INCOMPLETE FOOD LIST
> 
> Sources of incomplete protein include:
> ...

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> They should call their diet the low-carb/low-Omega 6 diet. Caveman ate a seafood diet. Since they most likely died of starvation, they would see food and eat it.
> 
> Btw, what diet do you follow? I don't want to assume you are low carb.


I just try and eat healthy foods and stay away from non-nutritive food. I eat fruts and vegetables. I prefer to get my protein from raw dairy,eggs and fish, small fish like sardines and herring... shrimp oysters... anything from the ocean but ill eat meat when im in the mood for it but i stick to graasfed and eat it pretty raw... i try to stay away from popular foods because the more popular something is the more its been monkeyed around with... for grains i eat anything sprouted or fermented or einkhorn... when i eat pizza i dont worry about anything.. i just let mysellf eat it.

----------


## Zippyjuan

There is no single food or group of foods which can provide us with all of the nutrition we need.  That is why we are omnivores and are supposed to eat a wide variety of foods.  Meats have proteins but not enough of vitamins and minerals.  Fruits and vegetables and grains have more vitamins but don't provide enough complete protein. All meat or all vegetarian will mean a deficit of something you need.

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> Vegetable proteins are incomplete proteins- you need to carefully combine them to get the right amounts of all of the amino acids you need. Whey (a dairy product) is considered a "complete" protein.


I used to believe this as well.. however when you see the musculature on non-meat eating animals like horses their protein looks pretty complete.

----------


## farreri

> "Incomplete proteins can be combined to make available all of the essential amino acids and form a complete protein."
> 
> http://www.myfit.ca/nutrition/incomp...mbinations.asp


Guess what I'm asking is where's the evidence you have to do careful protein combining at every meal with plant foods instead of just eating enough plant foods in a day to get enough calories and that will give you complete protein for the day?

----------


## farreri

> I just try and eat healthy foods and stay away from non-nutritive food. I eat fruts and vegetables. I prefer to get my protein from raw dairy,eggs and fish, small fish like sardines and herring... shrimp oysters... anything from the ocean but ill eat meat when im in the mood for it but i stick to graasfed and eat it pretty raw... i try to stay away from popular foods because the more popular something is the more its been monkeyed around with... for grains i eat anything sprouted or fermented or einkhorn... when i eat pizza i dont worry about anything.. i just let mysellf eat it.


Do you eat more closer to the Zone diet than low carb?

----------


## farreri

> Fruits and vegetables and grains have more vitamins but don't provide enough complete protein.





> I used to believe this as well.. however when you see the musculature on non-meat eating animals like horses their protein looks pretty complete.


I agree with Chester on this one and gorillas will agree too!

----------


## Zippyjuan

Their digestive systems are designed to get the maximum proteins from what they consume. Ours can't get nearly as much protein out of plants as theirs can. Note that they also consume massive amounts of grasses. 

http://animals.mom.me/animals-gain-p...rass-7833.html




> When you think of protein rich foods, you probably envision meat, eggs, beans and the like. However, animals that eat almost exclusively grass, such as cows and horses, have no problem getting enough protein in their diet. Unlike humans, herbivores are capable of digesting plant cells and getting to the nutrients locked inside, like protein.
> 
> Herbivores
> Animals that get all their nutrition from grass and other plants are called herbivores. Herbivores are capable of something that humans aren’t: digesting cellulose. Cellulose is a type of carbohydrate that helps make up plant cell walls. These cell walls are rigid and hard to break down, making them difficult to digest, even for herbivores. Herbivores have digestive systems that contain bacteria that have the enzymes necessary to break down cellulose. Once the cells are broken down they can access proteins, sugar and fat locked inside plant cells
> .
> Eating More
> Grass is not only difficult to digest, but time-consuming to eat. Many herbivores depend on grass for a majority of their diet, but grass doesn’t contain as much protein as meat does. A predator can get enough protein by eating perhaps only a handful of meaty meals a day. However, animals who eat grass must spend most of their day munching away on grass to get enough protein and other nutrients in their diet.
> 
> Monogastrics
> ...


Gorillas also eat insects as part of their diet.

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> Do you eat more closer to the Zone diet than low carb?


I dont know what the zone diet is.. basically i just eat whatever i want except i dont let myself eat certain things.. like anything with soybean oil... i dont want any artificial foods.. good natural graasfed butter os fine.. margarine no.. etc... once your tastebuds get reset you can trust your tongue and nose to tell you what to eat

----------


## farreri

> Ours can't get nearly as much protein out of plants as theirs can. Note that they also consume massive amounts of grasses.


You're talking about high-cellulose plants, like grass. Fruits, some raw greens, cooked vegetables, and cooked starches make us able to get all the amino acids from those foods.




> Gorillas also eat insects as part of their diet.


OK true dat!  Would be interesting to see how much nutrition they actually get out of the amounts of insects they eat and do they really need to eat insects.

----------


## farreri

> I dont know what the zone diet is


Zone diet is a mac ratio that's medium carbs, medium protein, and medium fats. In other words, in between a low fat and low carb diet.

----------


## Zippyjuan

http://www.berggorilla.org/en/gorill...-gorillas-eat/




> What gorillas eat depends on what their habitat provides and on the time of the year. Mountain gorillas mainly feed on green plant parts, whereas lowland gorillas eat a lot of fruit. However, in the dry season only a few juicy fruits are available and so the animals have to eat more seeds and tree bark instead. Usually, fruits grow on trees; gorillas of all ages climb these trees to harvest them. Although western gorillas eat a higher percentage of fruit than of leaves, stems, pith and shoots, they still eat markedly less fruit than do chimpanzees and orangutans.
> 
> The food range of the western gorillas is very broad:* they eat about 200 plant species.* They particularly like plants belonging to the ginger and arrowroot families. In contrast, the mountain gorillas in the Virunga Volcanoes eat only 38 different plant species, mainly Galium, thistles, celery and nettles.
> 
> An adult Grauer's gorilla male is estimated to eat *30 kg of plants every day, an adult female about 18 kg.* To be able to process these masses of plant material, gorillas have very strong chewing muscles. Their teeth are much like human teeth, except for the very long, pointed canines of adult gorilla males. The males do not use those for feeding but for fighting against competing males.
> 
> Apart from plants, they ingest soil occasionally. Perhaps this soil contains minerals that are missing in their plants, or the minerals neutralize poisonous substances in their food.
> 
> Although gorillas don't kill big animals, they regularly eat small animals (mainly insects). However, this constitutes far less than 0.1% of their food. In chimpanzees, up to 6% of the food may be animal matter.
> ...


So even on the plant side, they are consuming a very large amount of a variety of plants. 30 kg is 66 POUNDS a day! Picture a ten pound bag of potatoes and eating six of those every day.  OK- so they are bigger. Adjusting for size that means eating about 30 pounds of veggies a day.

----------


## farreri

> So even on the plant side, they are consuming a very large amount of a variety of plants. 30 kg is 66 POUNDS a day! Picture a ten pound bag of potatoes and eating six of those every day.  OK- so they are bigger. Adjusting for size that means eating about 30 pounds of veggies a day.


I only brought up gorillas as evidence you can get enough protein through plants and be really really really strong.

----------


## Ender

> I skimmed it, but saw her glaring mistakes, so why does she blame the diet when she didn't do the diet correctly?
> 
> 
> Blood type diet is quackery.


The Blood Type diet saved my life- I could care less what you eat but quit putting down stuff you have no knowledge of.

----------


## farreri

> The Blood Type diet saved my life- I could care less what you eat but quit putting down stuff you have no knowledge of.


What was your diet like before?

----------


## BamaAla

Not all paelo diets are low carb, so that's irrelevant. I have no desire to argue the merits of the paleo diet, but I learned of it on here a few years ago as the fat guy in the picture on the left with Ron. Within 9 months, I had lost 45 pounds and every health marker that can be measured improved exponentially. 5 years later, the weight is still gone, I'm healthy as a horse, and I still eat paleo; going paleo was the best decision I've ever made (except for maybe marrying the woman that turned me on to Ron Paul back in 2008!) 

If you're on the fence, go to mda and get started immediately.

----------


## elfroggo

It may not be the bulk of their diet, but gorillas don't eat an exclusive plant diet, they eat things like termites as well.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> There's a lot of vegan athletes that prove your assertion wrong.


False. Vegan athletes supplement like everyone else. They just have to supplement more than others to compensate for what their diet lacks. (like B vitamins)




> What macronutrient ratio so you recommend for long distance athletes and what ratio for strength athletes?


Whatever their coaches suggest. I only know what works for me. The typical formula bodybuilders use to figure the protein macro is bodyweight in pounds*1.5=grams of protein per day to consume. Strength athletes need moar. People like Olympic lifters, Strongmen, and Crossfitters eat an ungodly amount of protein.  On my lifting and training days, I supplement 25-30 g of protein on top of my meals.

The long distance atheletes I've observed do quite a bit of weight lifting too-just not the bodybulding split routines. It's typically lighter weight+moar reps for single joint exercises and high weight+low reps for compound lifts.

----------


## Ender

> What was your diet like before?


Lottsa natural grains, plant foods, a little chicken sometimes- thought red meat was evil. I was, and still am, into natural health.

Made all my own breads, pastas etc.

Had a stomach ache most of my life- went on a 3 month juice fast and when I came off of it, all my body wanted was red meat. 

Went to a health food store and the 4 Blood Types book was sitting on a table as I walked in. Picked it up and found out red meat was like medicine to a Blood Type O, while wheat flour was like poison. My body was craving what was naturally healthy for it. Went home, changed my diet and never have stomach aches. 

My whole life changed and I am extremely fit.

----------


## farreri

> It may not be the bulk of their diet, but gorillas don't eat an exclusive plant diet, they eat things like termites as well.


They barely do.

Although gorillas don't kill big animals, they regularly eat small animals (mainly insects). However, this constitutes far less than 0.1% of their food. In chimpanzees, up to 6% of the food may be animal matter.
http://www.berggorilla.org/en/gorill...-gorillas-eat/

----------


## farreri

> Not all paelo diets are low carb, so that's irrelevant. I have no desire to argue the merits of the paleo diet, but I learned of it on here a few years ago as the fat guy in the picture on the left with Ron. Within 9 months, I had lost 45 pounds and every health marker that can be measured improved exponentially. 5 years later, the weight is still gone, I'm healthy as a horse, and I still eat paleo; going paleo was the best decision I've ever made


What kind of paleo diet are you on?

----------


## farreri

> False. Vegan athletes supplement like everyone else. They just have to supplement more than others to compensate for what their diet lacks. (like B vitamins)


What athlete doesn't supplement?! How do you know they have to supplement more? I'm sure most omnivore athletes take a multiple vitamin with B vitamins too.




> Whatever their coaches suggest. I only know what works for me. The typical formula bodybuilders use to figure the protein macro is bodyweight in pounds*1.5=grams of protein per day to consume. Strength athletes need moar. People like Olympic lifters, Strongmen, and Crossfitters eat an ungodly amount of protein.  On my lifting and training days, I supplement 25-30 g of protein on top of my meals.


They also take an ungodly amount of performance enhancing drugs too, so how can you separate out the amount of protein needed from muscle growth caused by their PEDs use? I wouldn't take longterm health advise from any in those sports, fyi.

----------


## farreri

> went on a 3 month juice fast and when I came off of it, all my body wanted was red meat.


For 3 months???     No wonder your body was craving something so calorie dense. You were starving yourself.

Question, did you immediately change your diet after your long juice fast?

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> Lottsa natural grains, plant foods, a little chicken sometimes- thought red meat was evil. I was, and still am, into natural health.
> 
> Made all my own breads, pastas etc.
> 
> Had a stomach ache most of my life- went on a 3 month juice fast and when I came off of it, all my body wanted was red meat. 
> 
> Went to a health food store and the 4 Blood Types book was sitting on a table as I walked in. Picked it up and found out red meat was like medicine to a Blood Type O, while wheat flour was like poison. My body was craving what was naturally healthy for it. Went home, changed my diet and never have stomach aches. 
> 
> My whole life changed and I am extremely fit.


can you tell us a link about the particular blood type diet you use? Ive seen lots of different body type sort of theories but i dont usually put too much faith in stuff when people are trying to sell stuff.. id be curious in learning more about what you specifically learned.

----------


## farreri

Paleo diet rated almost dead last in Best Diets Overall, even lower than the Atkins diet!


U.S. News evaluated and ranked the 38 diets below with input from a panel of health experts. To be top-rated, a diet had to be relatively easy to follow, nutritious, safe, effective for weight loss and protective against diabetes and heart disease.

#34 - Atkins Diet
#36 - Paleo Diet
http://health.usnews.com/best-diet/best-overall-diets

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> Paleo diet rated almost dead last in Best Diets Overall, even lower than the Atkins diet!
> 
> 
> U.S. News evaluated and ranked the 38 diets below with input from a panel of health experts. To be top-rated, a diet had to be relatively easy to follow, nutritious, safe, effective for weight loss and protective against diabetes and heart disease.
> 
> #34 - Atkins Diet
> #36 - Paleo Diet
> http://health.usnews.com/best-diet/best-overall-diets


did you ever notice that with the exception of Durianrider every vegan out there seems sick?

----------


## farreri

> did you ever notice that with the exception of Durianrider every vegan out there seems sick?


How does he do it then?

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> How does he do it then?


probably because he only eats raw food and he exercises alot.. according to lalanne thats the most important part. but even DR has to supplement with certain vitamins and minerals..think of the majority of vegans who eat all sorts of processed foods just because its 'vegan'.. I can respect a person's decision to not eat animals.. Its a very humane and noble gesture but vegans are definitely in danger of deficiencies of B12, zinc, iodine, selenium, and probably a host of other trace minerals as well unless they eat seaweed... I know some vegans who wont eat seaweed because it 'looks' like an animal to them.

typical male vegans usually appear on the faggy side to me... I dont say that in a derogatory way. Im assuming that without the raw materials to make tetosterone like zinc, they run at a deficit and so the side efffect is more effeminate qualities.

I would have liked to have signed up on durianrider's msg board a couple years ago.. but the application to sign up is atrociously personal.. you have to submit photos and personal information about yourself.. and on top of that you have to pledge to want to follow a vegan and vegan only lifestyle... 

well all i wanted to do was talk to vegans and learn more... I cant make a promise that ill never eat a steak again... it was over the top to me.

----------


## Chester Copperpot

Farreri, Im curious how do you feel about raw honey? I eat it.. I think its a wonderful food... I know vegans wont touch the stuff though... Im also curious how vegans feel about vaccinations since theyre made with animal products.

----------


## farreri

> probably because he only eats raw food and he exercises alot..


He hasn't been raw in a couple of years now. He's always exercised a lot because he's always been a good athlete. He says he has way more energy going vegan than before he started. I don't think people need to go strict vegan to achieve that, but he's an excellent example one can if chooses.




> but even DR has to supplement with certain vitamins and minerals..think of the majority of vegans who eat all sorts of processed foods just because its 'vegan'..


I've only ever heard he supplements with B12. I think DR would agree with you that most vegans eat a junk food version of it!




> I can respect a person's decision to not eat animals.. Its a very humane and noble gesture but vegans are definitely in danger of deficiencies of B12, zinc, iodine, selenium, and probably a host of other trace minerals as well unless they eat seaweed...


Only an uneducated vegan wouldn't supplement with B12, but the other nutrients you mention would be no problem as long as they don't skip too many meals. You can get enough selenium with one brazil nut!




> I know some vegans who wont eat seaweed because it 'looks' like an animal to them.


I've heard there's some paleo eaters who only eat raw meat. There are crazies in every group.




> typical male vegans usually appear on the faggy side to me... I dont say that in a derogatory way. Im assuming that without the raw materials to make tetosterone like zinc, they run at a deficit and so the side efffect is more effeminate qualities.


Maybe it's guys who are more in touch with their feminine side that more likely go vegan?! Testosterone shouldn't be a problem unless they skip too many meals.




> I would have liked to have signed up on durianrider's msg board a couple years ago.. but the application to sign up is atrociously personal.. you have to submit photos and personal information about yourself.. and on top of that you have to pledge to want to follow a vegan and vegan only lifestyle... well all i wanted to do was talk to vegans and learn more... I cant make a promise that ill never eat a steak again... it was over the top to me.


I'm sure there are plenty of vegan forums out there. Try McDougall's forum. I'm pretty sure a lot are vegan over there.




> Farreri, Im curious how do you feel about raw honey? I eat it.. I think its a wonderful food... I know vegans wont touch the stuff though... Im also curious how vegans feel about vaccinations since theyre made with animal products.


I'm skeptical that raw honey is anymore healthier than pasteurized honey. I don't really eat it anymore now that I can enjoy all the natural sweeteners like good ol sugar on my low fat lifestyle. Have no idea about vaccinations. You'd have to ask them.

----------


## squarepusher



----------


## Chester Copperpot

> 


see what i mean about vegans looking like ****?? look at the vegan in that video and tell me he doesnt have faggy qualities... no way hes getting enough zinc in his diet, probably not enough B-12 nor trace elements either OR whatever his body is composed of that makes him look that way also makes him want a vegan diet.  just my 2 cents


EDIT: I just noticed this video's splash screen has text saying prepare for the coming of baphomet.. thats some sort of satanical bull$#@!... so $#@! this video totally.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Paleo diet rated almost dead last in Best Diets Overall, even lower than the Atkins diet!
> 
> 
> U.S. News evaluated and ranked the 38 diets below with input from a panel of health experts. To be top-rated, a diet had to be relatively easy to follow, nutritious, safe, effective for weight loss and protective against diabetes and heart disease.
> 
> #34 - Atkins Diet
> #36 - Paleo Diet
> http://health.usnews.com/best-diet/best-overall-diets


Strawman. All "diets" are doomed to fail in the long run. They aren't realistic. Nutrition plans work. And everyone needs a different plan for their goals. There are, however, bits of useful info in all those diets. The reason Paleo works for most people is that it's more about principles than strict guidelines.

----------


## BamaAla

> What kind of paleo diet are you on?



Primal Blueprint

----------


## Zippyjuan

> see what i mean about vegans looking like ****?? look at the vegan in that video and tell me he doesnt have faggy qualities... no way hes getting enough zinc in his diet, probably not enough B-12 nor trace elements either OR whatever his body is composed of that makes him look that way also makes him want a vegan diet.  just my 2 cents
> 
> 
> EDIT: I just noticed this video's splash screen has text saying prepare for the coming of baphomet.. thats some sort of satanical bull$#@!... so $#@! this video totally.


Rogan uses steriods to get his muscles. http://www.mmafighting.com/2015/10/2...ousey-mma-news




> He *shoots himself up with testosterone on a weekly basis*  "It's what fighters get in trouble for, but, obviously, I'm not competing. I just like the idea that I'm cheating old age and death, although, you know, you can't cheat it forever" as well as human growth hormone. If he's dragging a little, he'll pop a Nuvigil, a variant of the focus-improving drug that fighter pilots use.


And Human Growth Hormones (HGH): 



> Rogan has been open about his use of both testosterone and human growth hormone for sometime, describing the benefits during his podcast in 2011.
> 
> "I took a lot of different stuff," Rogan said. "*Now, I take human growth hormone and testosterone. I go for hormone replacement therapy.* I don't need more [testosterone]. It's a very light dose. The testosterone is cream. It's healthy. It does wonders for your body."


He isn't "real man"- he is "fake man".

----------


## specsaregood

//

----------


## squarepusher

> see what i mean about vegans looking like ****?? look at the vegan in that video and tell me he doesnt have faggy qualities... no way hes getting enough zinc in his diet, probably not enough B-12 nor trace elements either OR whatever his body is composed of that makes him look that way also makes him want a vegan diet.  just my 2 cents
> 
> 
> EDIT: I just noticed this video's splash screen has text saying prepare for the coming of baphomet.. thats some sort of satanical bull$#@!... so $#@! this video totally.


isn't that a homophobic statement?

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> Rogan uses steriods to get his muscles. http://www.mmafighting.com/2015/10/2...ousey-mma-news
> 
> 
> 
> And Human Growth Hormones (HGH): 
> 
> 
> He isn't "real man"- he is "fake man".


Im no talking about their bodies or their musculature.. Im talking about their facial expression.. you know how gay guys just have that look... well thats what the majority of vegan males seem to have...

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> isn't that a homophobic statement?


no not at all... its just an observation. Kinda the same way most guys dont wash their hands after using a public restroom..

----------


## Zippyjuan

"At Harvard we always wash our hands after using the restroom."
"At Yale we have learned how to not pee on our hands. "

----------


## farreri

> Primal Blueprint


That's low carb.

----------


## farreri

> see what i mean about vegans looking like ****?? look at the vegan in that video and tell me he doesnt have faggy qualities... no way hes getting enough zinc in his diet, probably not enough B-12 nor trace elements either OR whatever his body is composed of that makes him look that way also makes him want a vegan diet.  just my 2 cents


What you mean? His musculature is impressive for a 6'3 guy with a natural lean build. You're comparing him to a guy on steroids (Rogan). 

Even in you're correct, B-12 and Zinc supplements are abundant and cheap.





> EDIT: I just noticed this video's splash screen has text saying prepare for the coming of baphomet.. thats some sort of satanical bull$#@!... so $#@! this video totally.


He's an atheist who's known to troll christians by saying stuff like that.

----------


## farreri

Paleo poo poops on idea that Paleolithic diet was low carb and meat-based. 

*Paleopoo: What We Can Learn from Fossilized Feces*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZEZYu_7zR4

One more nail in the modern Paleo diet coffin.

----------


## Suzu

New study says Paleo diet 'unhealthy and fattening' 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-devotees.html

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> What you mean? His musculature is impressive for a 6'3 guy with a natural lean build. You're comparing him to a guy on steroids (Rogan). 
> i mean his facial look, looks gay..if rogan takes steroids then hes an idiot
> 
> Even in you're correct, B-12 and Zinc supplements are abundant and cheap.
> cheap supplements arent real supplements. synthetic b-12 will never be better than eating b-12 from food.. same with zinc
> 
> He's an atheist who's known to troll christians by saying stuff like that.
> Well he discredits himself with that sort of bull$#@!.


....

----------


## Zippyjuan

Vegan Bodybuilders: 




This guy is 56. 


yeah, they all look gay. 

Joe Rogan on being gay:




> For the record, I’m not. If I was, I’m not sure that I would admit it,


http://joerogan.net/blog/are-you-gay

But does it even matter if anybody is?  Is it anybody else's business?  It is extremely hard to maintain that sort of physique "naturally" without hormones or steroids.  Even pro body builders only look like that a short period of time for their contests.

----------


## farreri

> New study says Paleo diet 'unhealthy and fattening' 
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-devotees.html


Yes, it clogs arteries and it's why Eskimos had twice the rate of strokes. I don't know if it's necessarily fattening, but I think a reason that may be is because heavy protein and fat foods are slow do digest, making it hard to eat a lot thereby making it easier to keep calories low. It maybe healthier than the SAD diet, but that's not saying much.

----------


## farreri

> cheap supplements arent real supplements. synthetic b-12 will never be better than eating b-12 from food.. same with zinc
> 
> Well he discredits himself with that sort of bull$#@!.


I take synthetic B12 and D and both show they work when I get blood tests. People get too suckered by the "natural" industry.

Maybe to fundamentalists.

----------


## farreri

Does everyone at least agree that the modern paleo diet should not be called paleo, primal, or caveman since we didn't eat like that back then?

I suggest calling it the *Low Omega-6 diet*. At least that would be accurate.

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> I take synthetic B12 and D and both show they work when I get blood tests. People get too suckered by the "natural" industry.
> 
> Maybe to fundamentalists.


well of course they show up in blood tests... The blood tests are only checking for the same isomer of the vitamin you took. lol

There are close to 1,000 different isomers of vitamin D.... The blood tests dont even know what to look for.

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> Vegan Bodybuilders: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This guy is 56. 
> 
> 
> yeah, they all look gay. 
> ...


because of farreri's bump I just saw this post now... 

Let me explain it to you like a 6th grader... Their vegan diet deprives their body of essential building blocks required by the male body. The result that many of these vegans appear femme.

----------


## Zippyjuan

The guys in the photos look like girls?

----------


## farreri

> well of course they show up in blood tests... The blood tests are only checking for the same isomer of the vitamin you took. lol
> 
> There are close to 1,000 different isomers of vitamin D.... The blood tests dont even know what to look for.


Well I feel noticeably better when taking Vitamin D which subsequent blood tests show raised my D levels up to normal. I once took a crap brand of Vitamin D that I didn't feel good after taking and subsequent blood test showed it didn't raise my D levels up at all, so you're going to have a hard time convincing me that the brand that did raise my levels up just gave me a placebo effect.

Let's get back on topic, please.

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> The guys in the photos look like girls?


the top doesnt... And I never said they "looked like girls".. I said they have that faggy look in their face... that gay glow if you will for lack of a better word.

the top guy doesnt but I cant see the faces of the other two... The guy in the anti-joe rogan video totally has that *** look to him.. 

again, I dont give a $#@! if someones a *** or not.. but Ive noticed it enough with vegan men to theorize its related to their diet. lack of certain nutrients...

its just my opinion of course.

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> Well I feel noticeably better when taking Vitamin D which subsequent blood tests show raised my D levels up to normal. I once took a crap brand of Vitamin D that I didn't feel good after taking and subsequent blood test showed it didn't raise my D levels up at all, so you're going to have a hard time convincing me that the brand that did raise my levels up just gave me a placebo effect.
> 
> Let's get back on topic, please.


Youre not listening.. I said nothing about any placebo effect..

 I said youR blood test is checking for the vitamin D that you take in pill form.. however it is ignoring almost 1,000 OTHER variants of the vitamin...

if you want real vitamin supplementation it needs to come from a food source that contains multiple forms in natural ratios along with  other supplemental nutrition.

----------


## farreri

> if you want real vitamin supplementation it needs to come from a food source that contains multiple forms in natural ratios along with  other supplemental nutrition.


How does meat get Vitamin D?

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> How does meat get Vitamin D?


from eating natural food. it doesnt take pills. lol

----------


## farreri

> from eating natural food. it doesnt take pills. lol


What foods do cows eat to get Vitamin D?

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> What foods do cows eat to get Vitamin D?


grass.

----------


## donnay

> I take synthetic B12 and D and both show they work when I get blood tests. People get too suckered by the "natural" industry.
> 
> Maybe to fundamentalists.



Vitamin B12 is essential for life.  Synthetic B12 is cyanocobalamin which does not absorb well and really isn't bioavailable.   Processed foods are often fortified with cyanocobalamin. Methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin are the two natural, active forms of vitamin B12.  Methylcobalamin is  a much more superior form of B12 and it absorbs much easier orally.

----------


## farreri

> grass.


_Grass?_

----------


## farreri

> Synthetic B12 is cyanocobalamin which does not absorb well and really isn't bioavailable.


My body has no problem absorbing it. If you want to spend more money on that other type of B12 that will do the exact same, that's your choice.

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> _Grass?_


yeah grass. are you feeling ok?

----------


## farreri

> yeah grass. are you feeling ok?


Does kale have Vitamin D?

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> Does kale have Vitamin D?


I would like to think it does even those its not listed usually in its makeup.

----------


## farreri

> I would like to think it does even those its not listed usually in its makeup.


Can you provide me a link that shows grass has Vitamin D? Because I never heard that one before.

----------


## donnay

> My body has no problem absorbing it. If you want to spend more money on that other type of B12 that will do the exact same, that's your choice.


Have you had your blood tested for you B12 levels?

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> Can you provide me a link that shows grass has Vitamin D? Because I never heard that one before.


http://www.admani.com/Dairy/Technica...0Nutrition.htm




> Vitamin D
> Many compounds possess vitamin D activity, but only vitamin D2 (plant derived) and D3 (animal derived) are important dietary sources. *Sun-cured forages tend to be good sources of vitamin D;* however, there are large variations in vitamin D content of forages and vitamin D deteriorates over time in storage. Sunlight or ultraviolet light is needed for the animal to convert both vitamin D2 and D3 to their active form. Vitamin D3 is used more efficiently by dairy cattle. Prior to performing its function, vitamin D must be converted to a much more active form (four to five times more active) by the liver and kidneys.

----------


## Suzanimal

I take B-12 shots and vitamin D. They've really helped me feel good.

----------


## farreri

> Have you had your blood tested for you B12 levels?


Yes. It's almost at 600.

----------


## donnay

> Yes. It's almost at 600.



Wow impressive since normal levels should be around 500 pg/ml.

----------


## farreri

> http://www.admani.com/Dairy/Technica...0Nutrition.htm


I'm thinking they wrote that wrong because plants don't have D. They have precursor nutrients that's then activated by the sun, or else all leafy greens would have D.

----------


## farreri

> Wow impressive since normal levels should be around 500 pg/ml.


Thank you.  Cheap synthetic cyano B12 is what I take.

----------


## farreri

> Does everyone at least agree that the modern paleo diet should not be called paleo, primal, or caveman since we didn't eat like that back then?
> 
> I suggest calling it the *Low Omega-6 diet*. At least that would be accurate.


bump

----------


## Zippyjuan

Body builders aren't "natural" anyways- vegan or not.  They aren't eating diets one can sustain oneself on for a long period of time.

All that protein for one is very hard on the kidneys and liver.

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> I'm thinking they wrote that wrong because plants don't have D. They have precursor nutrients that's then activated by the sun, or else all leafy greens would have D.


It would be my guess that leafy greens do have vitamin d.

Theyve done studies on fish and their vitamin d 
levels.. fished raised in darkness have the same level of vitamin d as fish raised with sunlight.  Theyre getting their D from their sun-exposed algae/vegetation they eat.

Over 950 types of vitamin d out there... its a damned shame that people only think of. Vitamin D3 cholecalciferol as vitamin d.

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> Thank you.  Cheap synthetic cyano B12 is what I take.


Ill stick with sardines.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Body builders aren't "natural" anyways- vegan or not.  They aren't eating diets one can sustain oneself on for a long period of time.


Gotta admit you're right on this. Bodybuilders typically eat 5+ meals per day on top of protein supplements, lots of water, and a number of other supplementary things. (one of the reasons I don't get into the bodybuilding sport :P )

----------


## farreri

Sooooo, does everyone at least agree that the modern paleo diet should not be called paleo, primal, or caveman since we didn't eat like that back then?

----------


## specsaregood

> Sooooo, does everyone at least agree that the modern paleo diet should not be called paleo, primal, or caveman since we didn't eat like that back then?


Is this the argument you are reduced to?  Sad really...

----------


## farreri

> Is this the argument you are reduced to?  Sad really...


"does everyone *at least* agree that the"

So do you?

----------


## specsaregood

> "does everyone *at least* agree that the"
> 
> So do you?


Not really.  At least for the primal blueprint, what you eat is just a portion of it.  Besides, to be honest I don't really focus on the labels and I don't really care what you call it.

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> Sooooo, does everyone at least agree that the modern paleo diet should not be called paleo, primal, or caveman since we didn't eat like that back then?


i think thats like trying to get into an exact definition of libertarianism... everybody kinda has their own idea.

----------


## farreri

> Not really.  At least for the primal blueprint, what you eat is just a portion of it.  Besides, to be honest I don't really focus on the labels and I don't really care what you call it.


The primal blueprint is a meat-based diet. How can you say "not really"?

You don't mind people calling themselves libertarian when they aren't? Same thing.

----------


## farreri

> i think thats like trying to get into an exact definition of libertarianism... everybody kinda has their own idea.


If you look at any paleo/primal/caveman diet site, they list meat as the staple of the diet. Do you disagree with that?

----------


## specsaregood

> The primal blueprint is a meat-based diet. How can you say "not really"?


You have been corrected on that point before; so I'll just assume you aren't actually here to listen to what others have to say.  It is perfectly possible to follow the primal blueprint and not eat meat.




> You don't mind people calling themselves libertarian when they aren't? Same thing.


Why should I give a $#@! what people call themselves?  It doesn't affect me in anyway.  Its pathetic that you care.

----------


## farreri

> You have been corrected on that point before; so I'll just assume you aren't actually here to listen to what others have to say.  It is perfectly possible to follow the primal blueprint and not eat meat.


Here's the primal blueprint:


http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-101/

How is it possible to sustain yourself on it if you wipe out the bottom row?





> Why should I give a $#@! what people call themselves?  It doesn't affect me in anyway.  Its pathetic that you care.


Then why are you here at a forum that cares? You act childish.

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> If you look at any paleo/primal/caveman diet site, they list meat as the staple of the diet. Do you disagree with that?


the issue isnt what a particular site says, its what people all over say.. and people all over use different interpretations and explanations for various labels.

people cannot agree on what paleo, primal, libertarian or conservative means because these things are subjective. there are probably paleo vegans out there who just eat raw fruits and vegetables... im not so sure why you dont understand this..

Durianrider for example follows a paleo diet.

----------


## specsaregood

> Here's the primal blueprint:
> How is it possible to sustain yourself on it if you wipe out the bottom row?


Because that graphic is just a super simple example, its not detailed.  If you actually read up on it, you'd know what I'm saying is factual.  




> Then why are you here at a forum that cares? You act childish.


This forum does not care what people call themselves.   And most of the people here probably don't give a $#@! either.

----------


## farreri

> the issue isnt what a particular site says, its what people all over say.. and people all over use different interpretations and explanations for various labels.
> 
> people cannot agree on what paleo, primal, libertarian or conservative means because these things are subjective. there are probably paleo vegans out there who just eat raw fruits and vegetables... im not so sure why you dont understand this..


All the paleo/primal/caveman diet sites are very specific; low carb meat-based, getting most of your calories from fat and protein. It's not very subjective at all. 




> Durianrider for example follows a paleo diet.


That's true, because the real paleo diet is high carb fruit-based. My thread is about the modern "paleo" diet and how it's factually wrong and unhealthy longterm. Maybe those following or sorta following it are in denial about that.

----------


## farreri

> Because that graphic is just a super simple example, its not detailed.  If you actually read up on it, you'd know what I'm saying is factual.


What about that primal blueprint graph from the primal blueprint website is omitting that makes it not what the graph indicates?

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> All the paleo/primal/caveman diet sites are very specific; low carb meat-based, getting most of your calories from fat and protein. It's not very subjective at all. 
> 
> 
> That's true, because the real paleo diet is high carb fruit-based. My thread is about the modern "paleo" diet and how it's factually wrong and unhealthy longterm. Maybe those following or sorta following it are in denial about that.


how can you agree with me but then not listen to me. Take a typical-paleo guy on here.. one who eats meat and low carb.. and guess what? Hes not going to give a $#@! about any label on any website....

theres about 20 degrees of separation from person to person on lots of things like this.. not just dieting.

the paleo diet that works for durian rider is great because it works for him..

the paleo diet that works for Danno is great because it works for him.. 

one is a vegan.. one eats meat.. some people need meat.. some people dont...

FWIW, Im having a wonderful time consuming beef tallow and dropping weight the easiest since Ive been a kid.. its simply amazing.. that might horrify you because you get grossed out by animal foods but my body is telling me that theres something in that beef fat my body needs..

am I a paleo diet guy? wtf knows or cares. i just eat stuff i think is healthy.. and when i eat unhealthy $#@! i just let myself eat whatever.. though there ARE certain things i just wont consume in my body anymore because they are bad for my body... and some of those are vegetable based and others arent.

----------


## farreri

> how can you agree with me but then not listen to me. Take a typical-paleo guy on here.. one who eats meat and low carb.. and guess what? Hes not going to give a $#@! about any label on any website....


Then why are you even responding to my question?  Go troll somewhere else if you don't want to participate in my discussion.

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> Then why are you even responding to my question?  Go troll somewhere else if you don't want to participate in my discussion.


Youre calling me a troll?? hahah.. thats funny.. Im the one trying to have open conversation and youre the one clearly trying to push an agenda.

----------


## farreri

> Youre calling me a troll?? hahah.. thats funny.. Im the one trying to have open conversation and youre the one clearly trying to push an agenda.


What agenda is that?

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> What agenda is that?


that only your version of personal health is the correct one.

----------


## farreri

> that only your version of personal health is the correct one.


Doesn't just about every author of a diet plan think the same?!

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> Doesn't just about every author of a diet plan think the same?!


only the stupid ones.

----------


## farreri

> only the stupid ones.


I guess you're calling all the paleo, primal, caveman, Atkins, and other low carb diets stupid. I actually agree with you!

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> I guess you're calling all the paleo, primal, caveman, Atkins, and other low carb diets stupid. I actually agree with you!


anybody who says the only right way is their way is stupid... that definitely includes you and anybody else who thinks like you... their actual diet is irrelevant.

----------


## farreri

> anybody who says the only right way is their way is stupid... that definitely includes you and anybody else who thinks like you... their actual diet is irrelevant.


Um, OK.

----------


## farreri

Back on topic.

*Does everyone at least agree that the modern paleo diet should not be called paleo, primal, or caveman since we didn't eat like that back then?*


(This question is for people who care about accuracy when labeling a diet.)

----------


## Anti Federalist

There is more to life than trying to live forever.

Drool...

----------


## farreri

> There is more to life than trying to live forever.
> 
> Drool...


Say that after getting a heart attack or stroke.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Say that after getting a heart attack or stroke.


That's Man Food, boy. You won't get a heart attack/stroke from eating it. Those illnesses are not and can not be caused by the macronutrient and nutrient content in the pictured food. It's physically impossible. Biochemistry FTW.

----------


## farreri

> That's Man Food, boy. You won't get a heart attack/stroke from eating it. Those illnesses are not and can not be caused by the macronutrient and nutrient content in the pictured food. It's physically impossible. Biochemistry FTW.


Then what does? Because it's the leading cause of death in our meat-obsessed nation.

----------


## farreri

> *Does everyone at least agree that the modern paleo diet should not be called paleo, primal, or caveman since we didn't eat like that back then?*
> 
> 
> (This question is for people who care about accuracy when labeling a diet.)


bump

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> bump


its obvious you didnt do paleo right when you did it...

----------


## farreri

> its obvious you didnt do paleo right when you did it...


You're right, because I wasn't doing the real paleo diet. I was doing the modern day manufactured one.

----------


## farreri

*How to Really Eat Like a Hunter-Gatherer: Why the Paleo Diet Is Half-Baked* 
Even though researchers know enough to make some generalizations about human diets in the Paleolithic with reasonable certainty, the details remain murky. Exactly what proportions of meat and vegetables did different hominid species eat in the Paleolithic? It's not clear. Just how far back were our ancestors eating grains and dairy? Perhaps far earlier than we initially thought. What we can say for certain is that in the Paleolithic, the human diet varied immensely by geography, season and opportunity. "We now know that humans have evolved not to subsist on a single, Paleolithic diet but to be flexible eaters, an insight that has important implications for the current debate over what people today should eat in order to be healthy," 
http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...er-really-eat/

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> *How to Really Eat Like a Hunter-Gatherer: Why the Paleo Diet Is Half-Baked* 
> Even though researchers know enough to make some generalizations about human diets in the Paleolithic with reasonable certainty, the details remain murky. Exactly what proportions of meat and vegetables did different hominid species eat in the Paleolithic? It's not clear. Just how far back were our ancestors eating grains and dairy? Perhaps far earlier than we initially thought. What we can say for certain is that in the Paleolithic, the human diet varied immensely by geography, season and opportunity. "We now know that humans have evolved not to subsist on a single, Paleolithic diet but to be flexible eaters, an insight that has important implications for the current debate over what people today should eat in order to be healthy," 
> http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...er-really-eat/


That is an incredibly bad critique. Lots of strawmen. I suspect the author is just basing this on amazon reviews and other second-hand resources. Dr Cordain's book (the origin of the trend-IDK about the modern writers) is based on sound science. I was using it way before it became trendy. The modern books/webbernet sites on "paleo" diets aren't really that scientific from what I've seen so far.

----------


## farreri

> That is an incredibly bad critique. Lots of strawmen. I suspect the author is just basing this on amazon reviews and other second-hand resources. Dr Cordain's book (the origin of the trend-IDK about the modern writers) is based on sound science. I was using it way before it became trendy. The modern books/webbernet sites on "paleo" diets aren't really that scientific from what I've seen so far.


Cherry-picked science. Cordain blasts potatoes because he said they made him feel bad by giving him sugar spikes and plummets when he ate them for breakfast and then said he researched it and found that potatoes have toxic compounds. What Cordain doesn't say is cooking nullifies the toxic compounds found in plant foods like potatoes or legumes.  Cordain also doesn't say what he was adding to his morning boiled potatoes. If he added lots of butter, that would cause the carbs from potatoes to spike as shown in the 2nd half of this video that I posted earlier:

If White Rice is Linked to Diabetes, What About China?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aFxzAZdv7Y


Even another paleo site blasted Cordain for his BS about potatoes:




> Please read Mark Sissons articles here and here to find out why potatoes got such a bad rap in the first place from Loren Cordain, and why his claims may have been unfounded.
> 
> http://www.paleoplan.com/2013/03-28/are-potatoes-paleo/


But the facts are, the foods on the modern day paleo diet aren't all the foods humans ate back then and we weren't meat-based as people like Cordain suggest, but actually plant-based, frugivore to be exact.

----------


## luctor-et-emergo

> Cherry-picked science. Cordain blasts potatoes because he said they made him feel bad by giving him sugar spikes and plummets when he ate them for breakfast and then said he researched it and found that potatoes have toxic compounds. What Cordain doesn't say is cooking nullifies the toxic compounds found in plant foods like potatoes or legumes.  Cordain also doesn't say what he was adding to his morning boiled potatoes. If he added lots of butter, that would cause the carbs from potatoes to spike as shown in the 2nd half of this video that I posted earlier:
> 
> If White Rice is Linked to Diabetes, What About China?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aFxzAZdv7Y
> 
> 
> Even another paleo site blasted Cordain for his BS about potatoes:
> 
> 
> ...


What are the foods that people ate ? What period, what geographic location ? 

It's all a load of bull$#@! to me. People who lived in a warmer climate were more likely to eat fruits, plants and seeds with some meat. People who lived close to the shore probably ate some shells, fish-protein and who knows what else. 

Pretty much everyone in those days didn't have a varied diet either... They didn't get over 35 either. 


But... That doesn't matter that the 'paleo' diet may not be a good and healthy diet which works for a lot of people.

----------


## farreri

> What are the foods that people ate ? What period, what geographic location ? 
> 
> It's all a load of bull$#@! to me. People who lived in a warmer climate were more likely to eat fruits, plants and seeds with some meat. People who lived close to the shore probably ate some shells, fish-protein and who knows what else. 
> 
> Pretty much everyone in those days didn't have a varied diet either... They didn't get over 35 either.


That pretty much sums it up!




> But... That doesn't matter that the 'paleo' diet may not be a good and healthy diet which works for a lot of people.


"Works for" is a subjective term. If the person is only concerned about losing weight, starving will work for them. If they feel better on the modern day "paleo" diet than their previous crappy diet, that really doesn't say much. Have they been doing this "paleo" diet for 30-40-50 years or more to determine longterm results? No, it's only really been popular since the last decade. Most people here doing that diet have probably been doing it less than 5 years. Hardly enough time to really know.

----------


## Zippyjuan

They weren't concerned about what they ate.  They ate whatever was available.

----------


## luctor-et-emergo

> That pretty much sums it up!
> 
> 
> "Works for" is a subjective term. If the person is only concerned about losing weight, starving will work for them. If they feel better on the modern day "paleo" diet than their previous crappy diet, that really doesn't say much. Have they been doing this "paleo" diet for 30-40-50 years or more to determine longterm results? No, it's only really been popular since the last decade. Most people here doing that diet have probably been doing it less than 5 years. Hardly enough time to really know.


My thing is not to eat too much.. I hardly move in weight. I don't eat a lot of anything. I eat very few carbs but I do like my indulgences sometimes... Fries and good bread. I'm not a big pasta and rice fan but sometimes. I don't eat cookies, candy or stuff like that.  I eat a lot of vegetables and some meat an fish. Not  a whole lot, enough. 

The worst thing you can do I think is eat too much. I do think carbs as a main part of the diet has become useless since we've had modern food security. You really don't need to fatten up for the winter.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> My thing is not to eat too much.. I hardly move in weight. I don't eat a lot of anything. I eat very few carbs but I do like my indulgences sometimes... Fries and good bread. I'm not a big pasta and rice fan but sometimes. I don't eat cookies, candy or stuff like that.  I eat a lot of vegetables and some meat an fish. Not  a whole lot, enough. 
> 
> The worst thing you can do I think is eat too much.* I do think carbs as a main part of the diet has become useless since we've had modern food security.* You really don't need to fatten up for the winter.


That and subsidized agrabiz. And its unholy alliance with the FDA, congress, etc. The food pyramid was made up out of thin air for the benefit of Big Food.

ETA: You keep track of ur macros, bro? If you're an active person, the standard formula is 1g protein per 1 lb of bodyweight. (You can also use moar carbs than other people because you burn it off for energy) I'm pretty sure this protein formula was just made up by bodybuilders though and made it into the mainstream nutrition lore of sport generally.

----------


## luctor-et-emergo

> That and subsidized agrabiz. And its unholy alliance with the FDA, congress, etc.


Yeah sure, it's not out of rational choice that people have been eating bad. 

Which obviously has nothing to do with the free market but everything to do with favoritism.

----------


## farreri

> They weren't concerned about what they ate.  They ate whatever was available.


True, they were only concerned about surviving.

----------


## farreri

> I do think carbs as a main part of the diet has become useless since we've had modern food security. You really don't need to fatten up for the winter.


Useless for what, survival? Or being healthy? And it's not carbs alone that fatten you up, or people on low fat diets would all be blimps.

----------


## luctor-et-emergo

> Useless for what, survival? Or being healthy? And it's not carbs alone that fatten you up, or people on low fat diets would all be blimps.


Well, no. People on low-fat diets won't become blimps if they don't take more calories in than they burn off. 

But yeah, a large amount of carbs was once useful, when you needed to get some fat on your bones to survive the harsh winters, to have something to burn when there's a limited availability of food.

----------


## farreri

> That and subsidized agrabiz. And its unholy alliance with the FDA, congress, etc. The food pyramid was made up out of thin air for the benefit of Big Food.


No, it wasn't. The food pyramid is actually pretty accurate of how we are supposed to eat compared to most of the other diets out there.

I take it you think companies like Archer Daniels Midland had a big influence on the food pyramid. I don't think that's the case, but can't prove that. What I'm curious to know, how do you think the food pyramid would look like if it was heavily influenced by the Cattlemen's Association, the American Egg Board, and the American Dairy Association and Dairy Council?

----------


## farreri

> Well, no. People on low-fat diets won't become blimps if they don't take more calories in than they burn off. 
> 
> But yeah, a large amount of carbs was once useful, when you needed to get some fat on your bones to survive the harsh winters, to have something to burn when there's a limited availability of food.


Can't the same be said if people ate a large amount of meat?

----------


## farreri

Some Paleo diet studies show benefits, but from interesting reasons.

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> Some Paleo diet studies show benefits, but from interesting reasons.


Wow thats a great surprise coming from you. Glad to see youve finally seen some benefits to eating meat

----------


## farreri

> Wow thats a great surprise coming from you. Glad to see youve finally seen some benefits to eating meat


LOL, you obviously didn't watch the video!

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> LOL, you obviously didn't watch the video!


C'mon man anybody that knows you knows all your videos like this are just setups... anyway did you read the vitamin thread?

----------


## farreri

> C'mon man anybody that knows you knows all your videos like this are just setups...


A setup for people brainwashed by big cattle, dairy, and egg industry.




> anyway did you read the vitamin thread?


Na. Synthetic vitamins work great for me and my blood test prove that.

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> A setup for people brainwashed by big cattle, dairy, and egg industry.
> 
> 
> Na. Synthetic vitamins work great for me and my blood test prove that.


I created that vitamin thread mainly for you... and Ive got a couple more that combined are sure to give you a new undertanding of vitamins and the difference between natural vitamins and the synthetic stuff you buy from the store... after learning these new things you might think differently.

----------


## farreri

> I created that vitamin thread mainly for you... and Ive got a couple more that combined are sure to give you a new undertanding of vitamins and the difference between natural vitamins and the synthetic stuff you buy from the store... after learning these new things you might think differently.


But I felt better after taking synthetic Vit D when my Vit D got low and all my B12-related blood work is at optimal levels due to the synthetic B12 I take, so why should I read something that says otherwise when my body and blood work are living proof that at least the synthetic vitamins I'm taking are working for me?

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> But I felt better after taking synthetic Vit D when my Vit D got low and all my B12-related blood work is at optimal levels due to the synthetic B12 I take, so why should I read something that says otherwise when my body and blood work are living proof that at least the synthetic vitamins I'm taking are working for me?


Im going to post a thread about Vitamin D isomers. Im glad you felt good from supplementing with your Vitamin D but you have to realize that there are approximately 950 different isomers of Vitamin D. Imagine how good you would feel if you could supplement just more than one of them.

----------


## farreri

> Im going to post a thread about Vitamin D isomers. Im glad you felt good from supplementing with your Vitamin D but you have to realize that there are approximately 950 different isomers of Vitamin D. Imagine how good you would feel if you could supplement just more than one of them.


Well the synthetic D gave me more energy to get outside and exercise more in the sun, so!

----------


## Natural Citizen

You should take your vitamins at night. That way you don't pee them all out. Your body absorbs them fully if you take them at night.

I'm just thinking out loud...

----------


## Natural Citizen

> I don't eat a lot of anything. I eat very few carbs but I do like my indulgences sometimes... Fries and good bread. I'm not a big pasta and rice fan but sometimes.


No carbs after 7pm if you're generally inactive and all is well.

----------


## Natural Citizen

> Well the synthetic D gave me more energy to get outside and exercise more in the sun, so!


How many miles do you run?

----------


## farreri

> No carbs after 7pm *if you're generally inactive* and all is well.


As in living a sedentary life? Who wants to be sedentary?




> How many miles do you run?


I don't run. I'm usually outside in the sun for at least an hour a day. Probably still not enough to solely get my D from the sun.

----------


## Natural Citizen

> As in living a sedentary life? Who wants to be sedentary?
> 
> 
> I don't run. I'm usually outside in the sun for at least an hour a day. Probably still not enough to solely get my D from the sun.


You can get a good natural shot of D vitamins if you add some Maitake, Portabella, and Chanterelle mushrooms to your diet. Eat the Chanterelles raw, though. Of course, there's always fortified food, too. I was talking to someone about different milks and they'd mentioned almond and coconut milk. I've never tried it, though. I have a notion that it taste like that old canned evaporated milk. Or powdered milk. Eeeyek. Gag me.

I was just messing with you about the running.

----------


## farreri

> You can get a good natural shot of D vitamins if you add some Maitake, Portabella, and Chanterelle mushrooms to your diet.


Yeah, I was reading about mushrooms exposed to the sun of UV rays to make the produce Vit D. My local Safeway sells them.

----------


## farreri

*Ancient dental plaque sheds new light on the diet of Mesolithic foragers in the Balkans*
August 29, 2016

The study of dental calculus from Late Mesolithic individuals from the site of Vlasac in the Danube Gorges of the central Balkans has provided direct evidence that Mesolithic foragers of this region *consumed domestic cereals* already by c. 6600 BC, i.e. *almost half a millennium earlier than previously thought*.

These preserved starch granules provide the first direct evidence that Neolithic domestic cereals had already reached inland foragers deep in the Balkan hinterland by c. 6600 BC. Their introduction in the Mesolithic societies was likely eased by social networks between local foragers and the first Neolithic communities.

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2016-08-ancient...ithic.html#jCp

----------


## farreri

Dangers of the Paleo Diet | Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn 







> Trimethylamine N-oxide
> 
> Health issues
> Studies published in 2013 indicate that *high levels of TMAO in the blood are associated with an increased risk of major adverse cardiovascular events*.[9] The concentration of TMAO in the blood *increases after consuming foods containing carnitine*[10]* or lecithin*[9] if the bacteria that convert those substances to TMAO are present in the gut.[11] *High concentrations of carnitine are found in red meat*, some energy drinks, and some dietary supplements; *lecithin is found in soy, eggs*,[11] as an ingredient in processed food and is sold as a dietary supplement. *Some types of normal gut bacteria* (e.g. species of Acinetobacter) *in the human microbiome convert dietary carnitine to TMAO*. TMAO alters cholesterol metabolism in the intestines, in the liver, and in artery wall. *In the presence of TMAO, there is increased deposition of cholesterol in, and decreased removal of cholesterol from, peripheral cells such as those in the artery wall.*[12]
> 
> Inhibition
> *Vegan and vegetarian diets appear to select against gut flora that metabolize carnitine* (in favor of other gut flora more coordinated with their food supply). This apparent difference in their microbiome is associated with substantially reduced gut bacteria capable of converting carnitine to trimethylamine, which is later metabolized in the liver to TMAO.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimet...#Health_issues

----------


## farreri

*FOSSILIZED POO DEBUNKS PALEO DIET*

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> You can get a good natural shot of D vitamins if you add some Maitake, Portabella, and Chanterelle mushrooms to your diet. Eat the Chanterelles raw, though. Of course, there's always fortified food, too. I was talking to someone about different milks and they'd mentioned almond and coconut milk. I've never tried it, though. I have a notion that it taste like that old canned evaporated milk. Or powdered milk. Eeeyek. Gag me.
> 
> I was just messing with you about the running.


i just had some chocolate almond milk last night - it tasted good.. I could taste the chocolate and the aftertaste of almonds was fine.. I dont normally drink that much of that stuff but right now ill take what tastes good..

----------


## jllundqu

The best 'diet' is the following:

----------


## John F Kennedy III

> i just had some chocolate almond milk last night - it tasted good.. I could taste the chocolate and the aftertaste of almonds was fine.. I dont normally drink that much of that stuff but right now ill take what tastes good..


Stick with the chocolate.

----------


## farreri

*What Low Carb High Meat Eskimo Diet Does To Body*

----------


## specsaregood

> *What Low Carb High Meat Eskimo Diet Does To Body*


I don't need to watch some pointless video, I can just look in the mirror or at my belt.
This is what the paleo/primal blue print will do to your body:

----------


## farreri

> I don't need to watch some pointless video, I can just look in the mirror or at my belt.
> This is what the paleo/primal blue print will do to your body:


Starving yourself will get you those results too. Doesn't mean it's healthy. This is the Health forum, not the Aesthetics forum.

----------


## specsaregood

> Starving yourself will get you those results too. Doesn't mean it's healthy. This is the Health forum, not the Aesthetics forum.


Funny, I don't feel hungry and am fitter than ever.   Keep on mooooing farreri, the aliens will appreciate it when they come to cull their herd.

----------


## farreri

> Funny, I don't feel hungry and am fitter than ever.


Just wait.

----------


## donnay

> You can get a good natural shot of D vitamins if you add some Maitake, Portabella, and Chanterelle mushrooms to your diet. Eat the Chanterelles raw, though.


I went mushroom hunting last week with a mushroom expert from Nova Scotia who told me the only way you get the nutrients from mushrooms is by cooking/boiling or very lightly cooking them.  I am also finding information that mushrooms can be loaded with heavy metals.

After doing some research to cross-reference what he said, I found this...



> Mushrooms have very tough cell walls and are essentially indigestible if you don't cook them. Thoroughly heating them releases the nutrients they contain, including protein, B vitamins, and minerals, as well as a wide range of novel compounds not found in other foods. In Asian traditions, mushrooms are regarded as both food and medicine because they can support the body's natural defenses by enhancing the immune system.
> 
> But there are other reasons to cook your mushrooms. Raw mushrooms contain small amounts of toxins, including some compounds that are considered carcinogens. These are destroyed by cooking them thoroughly. Broiling or grilling is best.
> 
> Because of these concerns and because they offer little in the way of improving health, common button mushrooms are best avoided. But the types eaten in Asia—shiitake, maitake, oyster mushrooms, and enoki—provide a range of health benefits. The shiitake may be my favorite: It appears to enhance immunity and reduce the risk of several types of cancer. Maitake contains complex sugars called beta-glucans that have immune-enhancing effects. Oyster mushrooms contain compounds that can help address high cholesterol. Other mushrooms are used strictly in traditional medicinal preparations. Cordyceps mushrooms are used to increase aerobic capacity and support lung function. Reishi helps fight cancer. Lion's Mane contains a nerve-growth compound that has potential for treating nerve disorders. Finally, mushrooms that have been exposed to the sun will contain vitamin D, and you can also increase dried mushrooms' D content by leaving them to sit in sunlight.


http://www.prevention.com/health/hea...-mushrooms-raw

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## Chester Copperpot

> Just wait.


im still waiting for you to apologize for making a joke out of my cancer.

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## Chester Copperpot

> I don't need to watch some pointless video, I can just look in the mirror or at my belt.
> This is what the paleo/primal blue print will do to your body:


dont worry nobody else watches his pointless propaganda videos either.. thats why he comes here less and less... he knows it too.

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## Suzanimal

> I went mushroom hunting last week with a mushroom expert from Nova Scotia who told me the only way you get the nutrients from mushrooms is by cooking/boiling or very lightly cooking them.  I am also finding information that mushrooms can be loaded with heavy metals.
> 
> After doing some research to cross-reference what he said, I found this...
> 
> http://www.prevention.com/health/hea...-mushrooms-raw


I didn't know any of that. I love raw mushrooms and throw them on my salad all the time.

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## donnay

> I didn't know any of that. I love raw mushrooms and throw them on my salad all the time.


Here's some more info:



> Mushrooms, even common button mushrooms, contain traces of carcinogenic compounds in raw form. The same toxin, hydrazine, is also found in portobello mushrooms, and shiitake mushrooms contain a naturally occurring fomaldehyde. Both chemicals are heat-sensitive and abolished upon exposure to heat. You might think nothing of eating a few slices of button mushrooms raw, but to get the anti-cancer effects of mushrooms, eat them cooked. A 2009 study published in the International Journal of Cancer found that regular consumption of cooked mushrooms has been shown to decrease the risk of breast cancer by 60 percent.


http://www.vegetariantimes.com/blog/...-before-eating




> ...As a food source though, mushrooms have one big problem:  monomethylhydrazine.  MMH is most commonly found in rocket fuel.  Many cases of “mushroom poisoning” can be attributed to this chemical.  That’s the bad news, here’s the good:  MMH is a volatile organic compound, so cooking drives it away.
> 
> Pay close attention to that word:  Cooking.  Never, ever eat raw mushrooms!  Any mushroom.  That includes those white button mushrooms you buy at the grocery store or get on your salads in a restaurant.


https://hedgerowharvest.wordpress.co...raw-mushrooms/




> Hydrazine and other compounds: A chemical derivative of hydrazine, a toxic compound, is present in some of mushrooms including the white button (Hashida, Hayashi et al. 1990). Hydrazine, an ammonia like liquid compound, is easily volatilized with a thorough sauté. Eating a few uncooked mushrooms usually won't make you sick, as evidenced by the compound being present in the white button mushrooms, which are commonly eaten raw. While the toxicity of the compound hydrazine (also a component of rocket fuel) is well understood, exactly what mushrooms contain hydrazine and in what volume, has not been well studied. It is only through mushrooms like the false morel, which contain large amounts of the hydrazine gyromitrin, do we appreciate the toxic effects. It is clear that some people are more sensitive to hydrazine, while some feel no effect from eating false morels, others have become very sick or have even ceased to exist. Symptoms are usually gastrointestinal and neurological and most often occur within 6-12 hours of consumption. There is also evidence that repeated consumption can increase risk of illness. This has lead some scientists to believe some people may be deficient in enzymes that convert hydrazine to non-toxic compounds in the body (Coulet and Guillot 1982). If you always cook your mushrooms you will never need to know if you are sensitive to the hydrazine. 
> 
> In rare cases, individuals have developed a skin rash from eating raw or undercooked shiitake mushrooms. The shiitake sensitivity is an allergic reaction rather than a toxicity (Kopp, Mastan et al. 2009). However the lesson is the same-- when trying new mushrooms, cook mushrooms thoroughly. Mushrooms, like the false morel, are parboiled before consumption. Still if you really want to try mushrooms raw, eat only a small piece and wait for a possible reaction before eating a larger quantity.


http://everythingmushrooms.com/a-few...rooms-you-eat/

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