# Lifestyles & Discussion > Open Discussion >  Battery Types (including exotic) Compared w/ Charts, Experimental Data, Spreadsheets!{WIP}

## Kludge

*Spreadsheet now published!  Current batteries types with a mostly-filled page include LiFePO4, Li-SOCl2, & Li-Ion. Viewable @ https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...0E&output=html (designed for 1280x1024 monitor. Higher resolution results in wasted space. Lower resolution will cut off graphs. That'll be worked around when website is up.)*

View my explanation for why I started this @ https://docs.google.com/document/pub...wnbw29NRlPTLGE

All data I publish, including the later website, will have no copyright restrictions, and *I'll gladly accept BTC donations @ 14eT65cHTBJrRopzaoLu5nZEqcN5fhFKow or USD (CC, debit, Paypal) @* *http://kludge.chipin.com/battery-testing*


*Donation Targets:*
$0: Website designed & hosted. Non-rechargeable batteries tested at least once, rechargeables tested 5x. Spreadsheet & PPT released publicly with no copyright restrictions. Only one meter will be used, keeping testing pretty slow.

$50: All non-rechargeable batteries will be tested at least twice (uncommon batteries can cost upward of $5 each after shipping)

$250: All non-rechargeable batteries will be tested at least 5 times. Will purchase an adjustable power supply which will allow me to further research what voltages and currents are safe in different batteries. Many primary batteries may be safely rechargeable if a safe and practical charging rate is found. This also allows me more control in charging rechargeable batteries, permitting maximum accuracy. If I can find a reasonably-priced adj. PSU which accepts and transforms low DC currents, this will allow me even more control to ensure results are accurate and to safely test batteries using the multimeter.

$1000: All non-rechargeable and rechargeable batteries will be tested at least 10 times, with different brands used (to help ensure differences between manufacturing processes are accounted for). I can definitely purchase a more suitable meter at this price, and will do so if I can't find a corporate sponsor willing to toss me an old freebie from their R&D dep't.

$1500: At least 20 tests of all non-rechargeable and rechargeable AA battery types I'm aware of, with greater brand diversity, allowing critiques of manufacturers as well as battery types.

$2500: I'll test all AA batteries of all major battery manufacturers of all listed battery types I can find.


All donors will be listed in documents relevant to this project unless requested otherwise.

*Current Donation Amount: $0 

Project costs so far: $135.10
Chargers (3x$4=$12)
Explosion-resistant pouch (included from older project, replacement cost $9)
DC meter ($55 + $5 for necessary cable = $60)
Equipment to double voltage of sub-3v batteries so I can test using same load ($4)
Alkaline Batts (practically free)
Li-Ion Batts (2x$5=$10)
LiFePO4 Batts ($11 for 4)
LiFeS2 Batts (2x$1.70=$3.40)
Li-SOCl2 Batts (2x$3.50=$7)
NiCd Batts (2x$.85=1.70)
NiMH Batts (??? Can't find the receipt. Probably around $4 for 4)
NiZn Batts (4 for $13, included 1.6v charger)
ZnC & ZnCl (practically free)*

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## Kludge

This post is now without purpose as the spreadsheet has been published in post 1 and auto-updates as I alter it.

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## Kludge

Roadmap has a new home! This document shows what I've done, will be doing, which batteries have been acquired & tested, and may provide some insight.

Check it out @ https://docs.google.com/document/pub...MD7CznPf5zyzNQ

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## newbitech

is your time in minutes column your measurements after having a load on the battery for that amount of time?

I would suggest also measuring the load if that is the case.

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## Petar

Way to earn sex-points from the chief scientist, Kludge.

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## Kludge

> is your time in minutes column your measurements after having a load on the battery for that amount of time?
> 
> I would suggest also measuring the load if that is the case.


Yes, "Minutes" represents minutes which've passed since connecting it to a load. I'll update the spreadsheet template. Load's power draw is variable (fan ideally draws .3A, but that can go down to .05A), which is why mAh/Wh consumed may not appear correct if you were to do the math. The meter polls amp draw every .3ms I believe, so it should be reasonably accurate. I should look up the specs on the device and try to include a margin of error figure if possible.

Thanks!

Edit: Oh -- since I was looking for data for consumers, I only tested LR6 ("AA") batteries. Should include that, too.

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## kah13176

I've used some NiCad and NimH rechargeable batteries rated to 7.2 volts for robotics applications.  Interesting thing is, when fully recharged, they'd crank out 8.something volts.  Always found that odd.

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## Kludge

> I've used some NiCad and NimH rechargeable batteries rated to 7.2 volts for robotics applications.  Interesting thing is, when fully recharged, they'd crank out 8.something volts.


Batteries generally operate above their rated working voltage. The Li-Ion battery I tested first has a rated working voltage of 3.6v, but it was outputting nearly 3.9v at first.


(I'll also update the template to display "Voltage Output Under Load" instead of "Working Voltage" which I think I made up) Thanks for the comments. Edit2: Also should remove voltage decrease stat. It'd remove work for viewers and myself to simply show the voltage it operated at when I polled for data.

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## Kludge

I've been monitoring my next battery type (Li-SoCl2) for 24 hours total now (over a span of three days), checking it every 10-40m.... It was only putting out around .09A at best (even though it put out ~3.3v under load), and now's down to about a .05A output. Slow goin'.

- But, it made me realize measuring voltage drop isn't necessarily an accurate indication of whether or not the battery will still be capable of powering whatever device you're considering after x amp-hours have been consumed. Since amp output varies, I think I should include a graph showing the amp output from one reading to the next. So, it'd be displaying the change in amp-hours consumed from current reading to the previous by total amp-hours consumed. Maybe it'll seem more coherent when I put the graph together.

I was looking through Chinese sites and PPT presentations early this morning for info to put in my own presentation overviewing all the battery types, and was struck by the consistent failure to understand English. Engrish is no joke, and sometimes it was just weird to see how these engineers were throwing together their presentation. In the conclusion slide, the engineer author summed up his research by calling one battery type "superexcellent," and went on to say it will lead a revolution due to "heat tolerance, and stable discharge etc"

I can imagine being on CNN as a commentator... "Ron Paul will lead America with revolution due from ideas, and popularity etc."

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## Kludge

Did I tell you I'm not holding anything back doing this research? I'll be recharging every primary cell as well as rechargeables. Li-SOCl2, though? Definitely non-rechargeable.

.... And not that I'm suggesting you should recharge them or anything - because it's $#@!ing dangerous..... but it was awesome to see the entire pouch shoot up into the air and explode with a shower of bright blue sparks... in the house! Keep in mind the explosion happened over an hour after the charger was unplugged. The battery & charger (without power going to it) were just sitting in the pouch.

<- click to enlarge

So... Anyhoo, need a new pouch and charger. Having lithium in my system will probably do me some good. "Toxic" is a pretty vague word, IMO. I'll finish up the chart for the battery test before I go to sleep and post it in the second post of the thread.

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## pacelli

Although I don't understand all of the technical data in the posted charts/pics, I think this is a brilliant idea.

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## Krugerrand

I recommend you take a look at these two sites:
http://www.steves-digicams.com/
http://www.eyeglassretailerreviews.com/

You've got a lot of time and work in the project.  Apply some of your methodology to testing various products, and with the right site you could make some significant $$$ on advertising, amazon referral fees, and the like.

I referenced Steve's Digicams back when the Cannon A20 was out.  The site has really taken off.

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## specsaregood

subscribed

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## Kludge

> I recommend you take a look at these two sites:
> http://www.steves-digicams.com/
> http://www.eyeglassretailerreviews.com/
> 
> You've got a lot of time and work in the project.  Apply some of your methodology to testing various products, and with the right site you could make some significant $$$ on advertising, amazon referral fees, and the like.
> 
> I referenced Steve's Digicams back when the Cannon A20 was out.  The site has really taken off.


Before I'm done, I'll work on getting a Wordpress page together. With plenty of explosion pictures raising a great big middle finger to my health and the environment (satire, EPA - there was no explosion), I think it could engage a lot of people previously uninterested in the technical specifications of batteries. Monetization could probably be done through Amazon's referral program, advertising the battery type being examined. I could shove some of my other obscure focuses in there, too. Most importantly, though, a webpage will give me the nerd cred (when paired with a formal education in electronics) to start having battery companies respond to my emails. Windmill & solar how-tos using stock from Alibaba, reselling the exact parts I used at a price well below the typical kit by employing libertarian truck drivers who accept home-grown marijuana as payment (this is satire. I do not possess nor grow marijuana. I just thought it would be clever to point out for the 200th or so time that all libertarians waste years of their lives getting stoned and staring at their furniture [this is actually satire of satire, so I'm doubly protected]. Seriously, not serious.).

Hell - I should invest in a video camera, have it focused on pouch while charging primary cells, and have an "explosion of the month." Easy Youtube advertising! Gee, and all I have left which I really need to do is about 20 hours of work on the house this week, pay a visit to the IRS, and file a few years' worth of tax forms myself (satire - I pay all my taxes on time and in full). Oh, and Meris is crying or something. Idunno, too busy playing a Pawn Stars game on Facebook (also satire, CPS).

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## Kludge

Roadmap posted in post 3, ChipIn added in post 1 with benefits listed in post 2, did another Li-Ion test last night (will update the graph in post 2 tomorrow or the next day). Going to toss the results which led to the first Li-Ion graph -- testing the first charge of a rechargeable battery doesn't make sense, made obvious by the significant increase in recorded mAh capacity for the Li-Ion battery in today's test after I fully charged it. I have a lot I need to do with the house tomorrow, so I'll just be updating the spreadsheet template going on what's been suggested in this thread.

Other notes: (1) donations will help me purchase more chargers, battery types (and brands), and meters to test & charge faster, and get a more accurate idea of brands' advantages & the battery qualities overall. More importantly, it's encouraging. Unless otherwise requested, donors will be listed in the OP & in documents relevant to this project. (2) If someone lives in Japan, the UK, or somewhere else where they can get a AA-format AgZn battery, I'd appreciate being able to buy it off you. I've tried two different foreign suppliers claiming to carry it, but then cancelled the order saying they ran out of stock. (3) I've added plenty of notes to the spreadsheet (which I don't expect most people to view when visiting the potential future website) to help explain what I mean since space limitations pressure me to leave descriptions pretty ambiguous, so don't think at the end of this I'm going to vomit a bunch of numbers with indecipherable acronyms at everyone. The spreadsheet & ppt won't be released until I'm done with the minimum testing I want, going to donors first until I'm happy with a website design.

Questions & criticism always welcome. If anyone ends up donating through ChipIn, please don't post the receipt here.

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## Kludge

This is what the spreadsheet looks like now. I intend to move the specs to the left later and take out unnecessary "change" results from spreadsheet (I thought I'd need them, but I didn't). Then below the specs will be a colored barrier row to separate the specs from the actual test results. Notice I've changed the chart showing voltage decrease as battery drains so it's easier to understand. Wrote a few mini-articles for the notes to explain what the specs are. Also realized my Wh readings are off (~10-30% below what they ought to be). I'll look into that.

 <- click to enlarge

Edit: Note to self - quit compressing the images so much :x
Edit2: Updated roadmap (post 3).

10/6/11 UPDATE -- I haven't abandoned this, but I have much more pressing personal stuff to do. I did a test yesterday and have the results in my logbook, but haven't done anything else. Don't expect any updates for at least a couple weeks.

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## Kludge

Handy with a soldering iron? Have a power tool battery pack not charging well or with an inadequate capacity?

Replacing the cells in your battery pack instead of the entire unit can save much money, shouldn't take more than an hour, and creates less negative impact on the environment. I have not tried this. Yet.

http://www.instructables.com/id/ReplacingUpgrading-Power-Tool-Batteries/?ALLSTEPS

For now, I no longer need to do what I was doing instead of this, so I'll probably get back to updating the OP & testing more batteries today onward.

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## Kludge

Results have been converted to Google Docs & published. I'll be updating through Google Docs instead of my usual editing suite as my end-goal is to have it up on Google Docs and the formatting/graphs get jumbled/erased in the conversion process.

You can view the spreadsheet @ https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...0E&output=html -- I'll be updating this thread every time I complete & enter in the data for another battery. Graphs will be coming soon, as well as fixing what's left of the formatting.

Edit: I see the published version of the doc has more format jumbling.... I'll work on it later.
Edit2: Mostly fixed, now.
Edit3: Graphs are actually really quick & simple to create in Google Docs... They're now up. Fixed a few more formatting/grammar issues. Oh $#@! -- missed my 10 minute mark on the battery I'm doing now.

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## Kludge

If anyone has more suggestions for specs & graphs. So far, I plan on including "number of recharges required to be below cost of $.22 alkaline battery" and a graph showing amp output.

It's important to recognize how voltage output fluctuates between battery types. The two graphs I have up show this pretty clearly. The Li-Ion battery has a pretty stable voltage output throughout discharge, so it will provide sufficient voltage to devices with voltage requirements right up to the end. However, if you take a look at the Li-SOCl2 battery, you can see its voltage drops off dramatically after ~1.32Ah has been consumed, even though it had a total capacity of ~1.73Ah. In many situations, once that 1.32Ah has been consumed, the battery's useful life in your high-drain device has ended (in cameras, it will simply power down, in childrens toys, the pitch and volume will decrease, motors will slow or stop, and lights will either dim or power off). In some situations, however, the device will remain operating as usual until the battery stops outputting energy altogether.


10/18 UPDATE
We should be moved out of this house and into another state by 2012. I'm boxing the meter, batteries & accessories. No more tests for a good while. I may not be updating this thread until ~February. Sorry for the slow updates thus far, but I have a good excuse.

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## Kludge

Moving schedule is borked, so I unpacked the batteries & meter. I did a test on a LiFePO4 battery manufactured by Tenergy last night. So far, it is the only battery to produce results indicating an mAh capacity higher than what they've rated it at. Was advertised @ 400mAh, results gave 518mAh capacity. Haven't entered the results in a spreadsheet, yet. Chart and graph's up in the documents link

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## Kludge

Finished another LiFePO4 test. Will post the results tonight. 

The Wh rating is consistently low due to the imprecision of the meter. It measures only a tenth of a watt, but the load draws only .0-.3W. Typically the load's drawing ~.1W @ ~3.2-3.4v. The wattage draw is probably closer to .2W, but it seems to want to round down all the time for watts. I'd guesstimate the MoE on the Wh rating to be around 30-40%, and seems to lean about 30% under what it ought to be fairly consistently.

The mAh rating is much more accurate, as it goes down to the hundredth of an amp per poll for its ratings, while the load draws between .01A-.30A (generally .05A-.12A for the lithium batteries I've been doing). It should have something like a 5-8% MoE. This one's probably on the lower side because the number shifts more often so the rounding is done both ways due to the amp output rating changes much more frequently and since it's all going to be averaged over at least five tests, is probably much closer to 0%.

I'll throw out all the Wh ratings... I could try to guesstimate it, come up with an average that it's off based on the mAh & voltage data I have, then add to the Wh rating the % error I calculate - and that should bring the MoE to something like 15-20%, but that's a pretty shaky way to get a measurement.

Either I have to find a better load, or a better meter. AFAIK, the fancy industrial meters can go for something like $600+. A load which draws more energy at a lower voltage would also solve the problem and possibly be free. The MoE would be much lower due to the higher numbers involved - the lack of sensitivity of the measuring device becomes less significant.

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## Kludge

Alright -- finally some useful data for typical consumers is being found.

Cheapest $/alkaline-battery on Amazon is $.22/batt shipped. Alkaline batteries don't have mAh advertised. Ever. I have absolutely no idea why. Instead, you get "40% higher capacity than leading alkaline battery" and other such bull$#@!. I'll be testing those claims much later. I haven't done tests on "typical" alkaline batteries, yet, but I've read they typically have 1500mAh in them when fairly fresh. I'll assume $.22/batt @ 1500mAh until I start testing them. That gives us $.00014667/mAh in a "typical" alkaline battery.

So, I have two types of measurements I'll be looking at depending on the type of battery. For non-rechargeable (primary) batteries, I'll simply compare $/mAh. This is a very simple calculation, and I'll have that in within a day or two. For rechargeable batteries (secondary), I'll give the number of times it has to be recharged to beat the value of a typical alkaline battery. I still need to do the calculation on this, and it'll get complex as I factor in cost of electricity to recharge, which has to include each battery's individual charge efficiency, which I'll be using an AC meter for (if I can find it...) so I can test this myself instead of relying on the contradictory data on the Internet - though I'll be checking what I get against what they have listed to make sure it isn't too outlandish. This is simply comparing power in (Wh consumed from outlet->battery from no charge to full charge) to power stored (Wh in the battery). I need to solve the problem with my low-drain load, first, to get this information, however - or get a fancier DC meter.

I also plan on later combining my interest in non-standard backup batteries into this project. I bought a LiPo battery something like a year ago, but for whatever reason, even after I contacted the manufacturer to ensure it could handle the voltage intake, the AC->DC inverter kept exploding. There's so much more data out there than just on AA batteries, which is a relatively minor cost to backup batteries, which'll also have much more interesting explosions. I need to release the AA battery data before I consider the much more involving larger batteries.

I also had my first problem recharging alkalines the other day. A once-or-twice recharged Duracell alkaline started leaking and got potassium hydroxide all over itself and its battery compartment. It's actually fairly common even for alkalines, recharged or not, especially when they're near full discharge, so low-drain devices (a kind of device my battery was in, and nearing full discharge in) are probably more susceptible to causing this problem. No explosion

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## Kludge

Can now test lower-voltage batteries. I'll basically be shorting the battery inside a digital multimeter. This kind of testing gives different results than doing low-drain tests which would be typical of the electronics you'd probably use. The apparent voltage recorded is much lower, tests are much shorter (thank God!), and the Wh&Ah ratings will be much more accurate (having the apparent voltage significantly lower did not impact my data as much as I thought it would -- even the Wh rating is over 10% more accurate). Doing this also allowed me to check my meter against what the multimeter was recording, and it's fairly accurate, though the DC meter really does seem to always round down to the nearest digit it measures. I can't manually determine the Wh rating because the apparent voltage is way lower on the meter than it ought to be due to having the battery send out as much energy as it can - this obviously creates a problem "automatically" measuring the Wh, too. I'll see if there's something I can do. Using the multimeter gives the problem of potentially over-discharging the batteries, too, since it will continue to draw power even after the battery falls below ~2.7v which would totally bork any later results I take with the battery. There's a lot of research I need to do before going forward with more rechargeable battery tests.

I think I posted another LiFePO4 test since my last forum post. I've done another one, too -- just have to upload it. The formula's also in to compare $/Ah, which is only useful for non-rechargeable batteries -- still need to get a formula to determine the "real" value of rechargeables. Now that I can test sub-3v sources, I can start doing alkalines, NiCd, NiMH, & other such batteries. I'll start doing just the non-rechargeable batteries, for now, and I should have the results for a few alkaline tests within a couple days assuming the multimeter doesn't esplode. Oh - and the roadmap post has been updated, and I added some "far-future" goals - not that anyone cares about that.

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## Kludge

After doing a test on a ZnC battery tonight, I'm fairly sure I now have the answer on why alkalines, ZnC & ZnCl batteries don't have their mAh capacity advertised. They discharge a fairly steady amount the whole way through discharge. With the lithium batteries (and probably nickel batteries, too), there's a clear drop-off point. After 1000mAh or whatever's consumed, the voltage rapidly plummets. The voltage-output/mAh-consumed graph is a hockey stick. With the common non-lithium primary batteries, there's no major drop-off point -- it's always outputting an amount of energy which isn't dramatically lower than peak output until it's literally empty. The v/mAh graph is just a downward diagonal line. So, you have to determine a cut-off point in voltage for when you don't want to measure energy output anymore, and on those types of batteries, it could be really difficult, because there are plenty of devices which'd have no problem operating on 20mA or whatever, and if your cutoff point is going to be when the battery outputs below 50mA, you're writing off a very significant chunk of energy still in the battery.

So what do you do? Well, I'd think a common-sense solution would be to cut this meaningless "long-life," "super long-life," "extra super duty" labeling bull$#@! out and replace it with what I've just talked about. Have a standard cutoff point, then label it as "400mAh*" with the asterisk at the bottom reading *until energy output is below 50mA - or whatever the industry decides. It's simple, meaningful, and doesn't put anyone at a disadvantage (except bullshitters). It gives consumers the information they need to make informed decisions, without relying on bull$#@! marketing graphs comparing one manufacturer's "super duty" battery to their own "ultra-long life" battery and showing only how much longer the battery lasts in percentage instead of meaningful numbers.

P.S. I don't think I'll be posting the results of the ZnC test I just did. The meter I'm using is very unimpressive measuring low amounts of energy, and the ZnC battery would not output much more than 100mA at its peak, which causes inaccurate results because the meter's imprecise. Even the LiFePO4 batteries, which are recommended for solar light output 300mA - and that's at ~3.3v. I'll think up a solution for this. I may try asking battery manufacturers who write me back if they happen to have any old equipment they'd let me have at a discount.

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## CaptainAmerica

> Did I tell you I'm not holding anything back doing this research? I'll be recharging every primary cell as well as rechargeables. Li-SOCl2, though? Definitely non-rechargeable.
> 
> .... And not that I'm suggesting you should recharge them or anything - because it's $#@!ing dangerous..... but it was awesome to see the entire pouch shoot up into the air and explode with a shower of bright blue sparks... in the house! Keep in mind the explosion happened over an hour after the charger was unplugged. The battery & charger (without power going to it) were just sitting in the pouch.
> 
> <- click to enlarge
> 
> So... Anyhoo, need a new pouch and charger. Having lithium in my system will probably do me some good. "Toxic" is a pretty vague word, IMO. I'll finish up the chart for the battery test before I go to sleep and post it in the second post of the thread.


 you need a way to allow the gases to escape similar to how car batteries have an opening on top when charging the battery(unless its gel).

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## Kludge

> you need a way to allow the gases to escape similar to how car batteries have an opening on top when charging the battery(unless its gel).


Now I get it. Lead-acid (car) batteries produce hydrogen gas (a particularly dangerous gas) when they're overcharged (rather, when they're overheated). Other batteries can produce other gases, like oxygen, when overcharged, and all secondary batteries have a complex venting mechanism inside the battery to release the gas once a pressure-sensitive seal breaks. The seal has to be able to re-seal properly after the gas is vented out. Non-rechargeable alkaline and other primary batteries do not have these seals and vents. They're often now made to be extremely leak-proof, so instead of a small burst, it's a huge explosion. Batteries sometimes indicate gas buildup by bulging, but this doesn't always happen. Maybe finding the typical specific gravity of the batteries in different states could also help determine if there are gases built up in the battery -- I know they do this with lead-acid batteries already.

I think the next piece of equipment to look at is something which can reduce amperage without reducing voltage, like an adjustable power supply, which would let me determine the voltage *and* current going to the battery. Then, I could see what the limits are, and how ambient temperature affects those limits. The LiSOCl2 battery did keep a charge from recharging, as do alkalines, but the LiSOCL2 battery became quite hot while charging, unlike the alkaline. The heat was probably produced by internal resistance, which discharging and recharging can create (through various reactions) in some batteries, so when I was recharging and discharging the LiSOCl2 battery, it probably had an increasing internal resistance, creating more heat when energy flowed in and out --most primary batteries (and maybe some secondary batteries, too) likely become increasingly inefficient through use, making them more and more unsafe the more they're used since more heat will be produced. The only remaining question... in batteries, is gas produced from anything other than heat?

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## CaptainAmerica

> Now I get it. Lead-acid (car) batteries produce hydrogen gas (a particularly dangerous gas) when they're overcharged (rather, when they're overheated). Other batteries can produce other gases, like oxygen, when overcharged, and all secondary batteries have a complex venting mechanism inside the battery to release the gas once a pressure-sensitive seal breaks. The seal has to be able to re-seal properly after the gas is vented out. Non-rechargeable alkaline and other primary batteries do not have these seals and vents. They're often now made to be extremely leak-proof, so instead of a small burst, it's a huge explosion. Batteries sometimes indicate gas buildup by bulging, but this doesn't always happen. Maybe finding the typical specific gravity of the batteries in different states could also help determine if there are gases built up in the battery -- I know they do this with lead-acid batteries already.
> 
> I think the next piece of equipment to look at is something which can reduce amperage without reducing voltage, like an adjustable power supply, which would let me determine the voltage *and* current going to the battery. Then, I could see what the limits are, and how ambient temperature affects those limits. The LiSOCl2 battery did keep a charge from recharging, as do alkalines, but the LiSOCL2 battery became quite hot while charging, unlike the alkaline. The heat was probably produced by internal resistance, which discharging and recharging can create (through various reactions) in some batteries, so when I was recharging and discharging the LiSOCl2 battery, it probably had an increasing internal resistance, creating more heat when energy flowed in and out --most primary batteries (and maybe some secondary batteries, too) likely become increasingly inefficient through use, making them more and more unsafe the more they're used since more heat will be produced. The only remaining question... in batteries, is gas produced from anything other than heat?


 I just know basics on car batteries,not much more than that lol.

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## newbitech

cool to see this thread bumped, I was working on some numbers early this morning.

happened to run across this site by finding this calculator.  Yeah, it's a product site and all, but their battery knowledge is extensive.

http://www.batterystuff.com/solar-calculator.html

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## Kludge

> cool to see this thread bumped, I was working on some numbers early this morning.
> 
> happened to run across this site by finding this calculator.  Yeah, it's a product site and all, but their battery knowledge is extensive.
> 
> http://www.batterystuff.com/solar-calculator.html


Corporations are pretty much the only source of good information and data sheets on batteries and how a specific battery chemistry impacts the battery's performance and limitations. A lot of them are in Engrish, too. China's practically *the* producer of consumer batteries in the US, and the only producer for many of the uncommon battery types.

I sent a long email to Rosewill detailing what I'm doing, and asked if they have any old equipment they'd sell me at a discount. It's the only corporation I can think of which has engineers reply to technical questions, would have the equipment I want, and doesn't manufacture batteries. Crapshoot, but might produce something.

Updated first three posts. Just about everything has been moved to Google Docs. Hard to navigate, but the best solution I can think of until I fire up Dreamweaver for the first time in a couple years. Going to be focusing more on fixing up the house again for a month or so. Semi's dropping a trailer for loading everything on Dec. 7th, ready or not.

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## GunnyFreedom

bump to sub so it doesn't get lost, and I want to contribute a little to this too.

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## Kludge

Today, I have a couple more tests to add -- high-drain tests of the Li-Ion battery. They fared much worse in this scenario (though the batteries were well-below where they should have been in low-drain tests, too) - something like 550mAh capacity in tests compared to the 900mAh capacity China-based manufacturer Ultrafire rated it at. Very disappointing, and indicates the battery ratings should be weighed with the manufacturer's reputation.

So far, US-based Tenergy is still the only the manufacturer to rate their batteries below what they actually store. Wasn't a biter on arguments that US manufacturers are typically superior, but moving in that direction.

I also want to get data sets up to "average" data I collect. This'll be a bit time-consuming since my polling intervals are not consistent from test to test, but will give more accurate charts.

For anyone who was interested in how much energy ZnC batteries hold, the test I threw out for having poor results gave a battery capacity of 402mAh (actual capacity is probably something like 5-10% higher due to imprecise measuring tools, and I cut off measuring the battery once mA output dipped below 20mA), with a peak mA output of 130mA, "typical" output of 90-120mA (mA output dipped below 80mA after ~260mAh was consumed), max voltage output (under max load) of 1.45v, and "typical" output (under max load) of about 1v-1.2v (voltage dropped below 1v after ~215mAh was consumed).

If alkalines typically have 1500mAh capacity, you can see ZnC batteries likely have less than 1/3 that capacity. I picked up the ZnC batteries for $.288 each shipped, which is actually above the price of alkaline batteries if you buy in somewhat large quantities (you can grab them on Amazon for ~$.22 each). ZnC also allegedly have a problem with the zinc casing deteriorating and eventually leaking. This is allegedly much more rare these days, and I haven't yet experienced it. It's allegedly most likely to happen the more the battery's kept at room temperature or warmer and mostly drained, similar to the conditions under which alkalines will leak. As with alkalines, it largely depends on the precautions the manufacturer took whether or not the battery will leak.

I'll be testing ZnC & ZnCl batteries again, soon, with a more sensible test since the equipment I ordered for those tests came in yesterday. Somehow, I managed to use all the alkalines in the freezer, so I'll order some off Amazon, which is nice since the price I quoted comes from there, anyway. I won't be ordering them until I'm in MI, and possibly not until I've moved to our permanent residence, which may not be until at least February.

P.S. I don't think I ever touched on this, but it's absolutely worth the effort to freeze or refrigerate batteries, especially if you're in a warm environment. During these upcoming Winter months, it'd probably make more sense just to move your collection of batteries out to the garage instead of keeping them in an inside drawer. Maybe this sounds a little over-involving for the savings, but the best way to save money for many will probably be to partially discharge your laptop's battery and refrigerate it when you aren't needing the battery power. Li-Ion batteries have the unfortunate disadvantage of rapidly losing their ability to hold a charge if left at room temperature at full or near-full charge. Within five years, if you keep your Li-Ion battery at room temperature at full charge, it'll probably die within a few minutes if you try disconnecting the laptop from the wall outlet. It's very important to keep them as cool as possible. Hot laptops will greatly reduce the battery's lifespan, and most laptop manufacturers don't seem to account for this, so the batteries end up hot when the laptop's in use.

LiFePO4 batteries are one of the few lithiums which don't seem to give a $#@! whether or not you store them at full charge or a high temperature, and have an energy density not too far off that of a standard Li-Ion battery, while also having a pretty high peak rate of discharge (though it's less than that of cobalt Li-Ions, but this can be easily compensated for). I'm not entirely sure why we haven't replaced standard cobalt Li-Ions with LiFePO4s in laptops (though a few laptop manufacturers do use LiFePO4, and it's somewhat common in electric vehicles). I think LiFePO4s will give gasoline a run for its money, and its characteristics (particularly, its safety, extremely long life cycle, and high energy density) give a lot of reasons to consider it for a backup battery solution instead of extremely old lead-acid solutions.

P.S. Wonder who's responsible for energizing your devices? The vast majority of modern battery research relies on the ideas and data of John B. Goodenough.



Yep. He's still alive, and bringing energy to places we can't (even if he does hinder some developments with IP lawsuits).

Edit: Google Docs spreadsheet & roadmap updated. Template updated, "high-drain" & "low-drain" specs separated in most charts I'm working on, including graph on Li-Ion battery.

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## Kludge

There's an article which may be of interest to some of you, comparing alkalines by brand, finding that brand-name and their claims are typically meaningless (either the Duracell Coppertop or Duracell Ultra Advanced, however, performed significantly better than the other batteries). There's a lithium battery (LiFeS2, I'd guess) thrown in there and compared to alkalines for some reason... I guess the author just grabbed whatever was at the store battery shelf. Anyway, check it out @ http://dealnews.com/features/Test-Results-That-Will-Change-the-Way-You-Buy-Batteries-Forever/449005.html

P.S. I'm back to having no idea how to accurately test the low-discharge batteries, like the very popular alkalines. The component I bought to solve the problem was Chinese junk and didn't work as advertised, which is fine since it only cost $4, but annoying because the alternative could be much more expensive. ... Well, much more kludged-together, anyway.

Roadtrip & pediatrician appointment today, probably no updates for a couple days... hard-core work on the house after that. I keep saying that and always come back to doing this at night.... errr -- morning, I guess.

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## Kludge

Wow. So, guess whose uncle's quite possibly getting a job as a "battery testing technician."

- And he has a couple of much-more-precise DC am*p*meters lying around. Testing should resume ~Jan-Feb, results will be more accurate, and come much faster.

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## fisharmor

I think you ought to add weight to the chart, and give us a volts/kg and mAh/kg rating.
Just a thought.
Also, have you ever thought about getting into testing ultracapacitors?  I totally understand if the answer is no, since just charging them would probably require building your own circuits... but it would be an interesting juxtaposition on the chart.

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## Kludge

> I think you ought to add weight to the chart, and give us a volts/kg and mAh/kg rating.
> Just a thought.
> Also, have you ever thought about getting into testing ultracapacitors?  I totally understand if the answer is no, since just charging them would probably require building your own circuits... but it would be an interesting juxtaposition on the chart.


Can definitely do weight. Shouldn't be hard. We have an industrial-grade scale in the house as it happens which'd have no problem with that. Dunno if it'd help any consumers, but it could be important for some of the niftier hobbyists out there. No reason not to collect that data, anyway. Thanks!

I have absolutely no experience with ultracapacitors, or farads & coulombs. I've used capacitors without understanding them, but that's about it. Here's my understanding from some quick glances. One coulomb = one amp-second. A farad, to me, seems basically the same kind of measurement as that of a watt-hour -- it's combining the current and voltage for a more meaningful figure to understand how much total energy is actually stored. I'm sure there's a Wh->farad conversion out there somewhere. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but I don't see why I couldn't just measure in something like watt-seconds, which I think more uneducated folks like myself are familiar with. I could use Joules to very simply convert farads to Wh and vice versa.

Okay, so.... One Joule = ~.000277778Wh. That's an easy conversion -- may as well include that in the spreadsheet, and then I can do J/kg, too. F=(A*s)/J or (W*s)/V^2. ... But voltage & amperage are almost never constant (is this different in an ultracap?), so that seems like kind of a meaningless stat unless you have a device very frequently polling voltage or amps to produce a farads stat. Maybe the new amp-meters will have a setting for farads.

Anyway, I'm getting off-track. I don't see any reason I can't just measure ultracap capacitance in watt-seconds (or watt-hours). I can get an adjustable DC power supply for charging the capacitors -- I wanted one for more control over charging and discharging the chemical batteries, anyway. I wanted to get into battery-bank-caliber batteries after I finish with the AA stuff. Ultracaps have a place in alternative energy kits, so I may as well test them alongside the "car batteries." Ultracaps are allegedly still becoming dramatically cheaper by the year, so waiting'll give them more favorable stats, too.

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## helmuth_hubener

> ..... but it was awesome to see the entire pouch shoot up into the air and explode with a shower of bright blue sparks... in the house!


Tubez!!

Kludge, this is a unique and wonderful thread, you get a gold star.  But you'd better come up with some conclusions eventually, meaning recommendations, e.g.: "The batteries that will give you the most bang for your buck are Hawaiian Print Tenergy if you won't be recharging, and Energizer Industrial if you will be."  And then I can take your recommendations and get a great deal and kind of cross fingers and keep hope alive that you don't mean "bang" literally.

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## Kludge

> Tubez!!
> 
> Kludge, this is a unique and wonderful thread, you get a gold star.  But you'd better come up with some conclusions eventually, meaning recommendations, e.g.: "The batteries that will give you the most bang for your buck are Hawaiian Print Tenergy if you won't be recharging, and Energizer Industrial if you will be."  And then I can take your recommendations and get a great deal and kind of cross fingers and keep hope alive that you don't mean "bang" literally.


Definitely. The first conclusion I came to which REALLY surprised me was that brand matters when buying batteries. I figured if a manufacturer said it had a 900mAh capacity, it'd have a roughly 900mAh capacity under typical conditions. WRONG! I was also surprised to find the Chinese manufacturers (in my limited testing -- this could change) are most likely to grossly overestimate their batteries' energy capacity.

I don't have time to do testing right now, but I may end up throwing all the stuff I've done out and starting over with the better equipment. My Uncle also sent me some testing procedures a well-respected company uses, which'll be great. There are some factors I assumed minor when I was testing. They may be minor, but I won't know until later. Temperature in particular may have a very big impact on test results, and I should be controlling variables like that as much as possible. The house temperature's typically within 10 degrees of any other time inside, but it may be significant - I just don't know yet until I do more testing.


Anyone interested in learning more about batteries -- my Uncle linked me to this site, too -- it has a LOT of practical information. http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/

While I've spent a lot of time collecting the data I have in the spreadsheet, I'll probably tossing almost all of it out so I know the information I end up publishing is precise, has important variables stated, and a set of clear rules to follow to make the figures more meaningful.

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## Brian4Liberty

> Definitely. The first conclusion I came to which REALLY surprised me was that brand matters when buying batteries. I figured if a manufacturer said it had a 900mAh capacity, it'd have a roughly 900mAh capacity under typical conditions. WRONG! I was also surprised to find the Chinese manufacturers (in my limited testing -- this could change) are most likely to grossly overestimate their batteries' energy capacity.


Not a surprise to some of us... 

Brand recommendations are handy.

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## Kluge

I will not be continuing this at least until I finish moving in ~2-3 months. Have lots of resources to redo this properly, now. Unfortunately, I still don't have a device to accurately measure wattage, and have to rely on doing manual calculations at every manual polling, which isn't much more than guesstimating given I'm not going to stare at the batteries & meters to check every 30 seconds or whatever. May dump this project if I have other things going on.

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