# News & Current Events > Individual Rights Violations: Case Studies >  Constitutional Question - FLDS Church Raid

## UtahApocalypse

Read this article:

http://digg.com/world_news/FLDS_memb...utional_rights

I would like some opinions of the Constitutional issues here. I think it is going to be a case facing issues of the 4th amendment and religious freedoms. I will give my opinions but want to see some others first.

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## Kade

What's your question?

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## Aratus

echoes of waco? the law is now into being a legal guardian?
its a dissident mormon faction compound, and if the minors 
were transported across state lines, does the mann act click in?
had romney stayed in the race, he'd be fielding press corp questions...
even though he's mainstream and not one of the church dissidents.

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## acptulsa

Laws are laws.  It isn't anti-libertarian to protect children.  And at least they didn't go in guns a-blazing as in Waco.

Wish I could attribute the quote, but I don't know who first said it:  Civilization's purpose is to protect preagnant women and children.  Everything else is just window dressing (or words to that effect).

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## pcosmar

> Laws are laws.  It isn't anti-libertarian to protect children.  And at least they didn't go in guns a-blazing as in Waco.
> 
> Wish I could attribute the quote, but I don't know who first said it:  Civilization's purpose is to protect preagnant women and children.  Everything else is just window dressing (or words to that effect).


I don't disagree with your statement.
I do wonder how the STATE can invade a home and remove the occupants with no more evidence than a anonymous phone call.
From what I have been able to learn, this is ALL based on an_ Alleged_ phone call to a "shelter".
The girl who_ allegedly_ made the call has not been identified, nor was she present at the _compound_.
The rest of the mothers and children are being held (by the state) against their will.
This has all the earmarks of a witch hunt.

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## DaveH

> I don't disagree with your statement.
> I do wonder how the STATE can invade a home and remove the occupants with no more evidence than a anonymous phone call.
> From what I have been able to learn, this is ALL based on an_ Alleged_ phone call to a "shelter".
> The girl who_ allegedly_ made the call has not been identified, nor was she present at the _compound_.
> The rest of the mothers and children are being held (by the state) against their will.
> This has all the earmarks of a witch hunt.


This has bugged me from day one.  Of course Texas has the right to enforce state laws but how does looking for one teenage girl require the uprooting of a whole religious and civil society?
So, the Fundamental Mormans seem to be quacky?  So what?  They have the constitutional right to be that way.
Who's to say the Fundamental Baptist or the Fundamental Jehovah Witnesses won't be the next target?
We don't need the government trying to save us from ourselves.

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## jblosser

> Laws are laws.  It isn't anti-libertarian to protect children.  And at least they didn't go in guns a-blazing as in Waco.
> 
> Wish I could attribute the quote, but I don't know who first said it:  Civilization's purpose is to protect preagnant women and children.  Everything else is just window dressing (or words to that effect).


It sounds fairly derivative of James 1:27: "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

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## Aratus

the question is puberty and the appropiate age for an adult
to make legal decisions under the law. impelling or compelling
female minors into a poligamous marriage with much older men
cuts against several different areas of our law code. assuming
the state sanctions the marriage because the girl's parents 
approve, we have places where bigomy can land one in a jail cell!
14 or 15 year olds legally need their parents permission to marry.
there are laws against statutory rape even when the sex act is consentual.
quite often its an 18 or 19 year old guy dating a girl who is 16 or 17
who has angry parents, and there is less of an age difference!!!
the religious compound's isolation then brings in the questions
around religious cults and any conditioning of the converts to the
agenda of the cult. the so called freedom of choise that basically isn't...

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## Kade

> the question is puberty and the appropiate age for an adult
> to make legal decisions under the law. impelling or compelling
> female minors into a poligamous marriage with much older men
> cuts against several different areas of our law code. assuming
> the state sanctions the marriage because the girl's parents 
> approve, we have places where bigomy can land one in a jail cell!
> 14 or 15 year olds legally need their parents permission to marry.
> there are laws against statutory rape even when the sex act is consentual.
> quite often its an 18 or 19 year old guy dating a girl who is 16 or 17
> ...


The fundamental principles of libertarianism are breaking down! Oh noes!!

Seriously though, the anarchist lose footing here. As do most who desire inefficient levels of government.

I think it is more important to remember that WE are suppose to run the government.

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## tmosley

The call gave them probable cause to search the premisis.  Upon searching, they found undoubtable evidence of minors having sex (pregnant children).  Further, the policies of those in charge of the compound did not allow inhabitants to leave at any time, which amounts to false imprisonment.

I think people have a right to live under whatever social arrangements they like, but when people are held in those arrangements against their will, or are beaten/raped, well, that's where the police have an obligation to step in, even in an ideal libertarian society.

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## pcosmar

> The call gave them probable cause to search the premisis.  Upon searching, they found undoubtable evidence of minors having sex (pregnant children).  Further, the policies of those in charge of the compound did not allow inhabitants to leave at any time, which amounts to false imprisonment.
> 
> I think people have a right to live under whatever social arrangements they like, but when people are held in those arrangements against their will, or are beaten/raped, well, that's where the police have an obligation to step in, even in an ideal libertarian society.


An anonymous phone call is probable cause to search?
Someone *allegedly* made a call, someone that can not be found and/or verified.
Over 400 people are taken from their homes on the word of a "social worker" that has mad an accusation.
That is wrong.
As far as he "age of consent", that is an arbitrary figure, and a recent development.
It is different in different states. also less than 100 years ago it was common for girls 12 or 13 years old to get married. The fact that they are pregnant proves that the are "old enough" physically. That is nature. Laws that set an "age" are disregarding nature.

I am not a polygamist, or a Mormon, I just don't think the Government has any business being involved in religious persecution or reproductive affairs.
This is another case of enforcing someones "morality" on someone else.

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## Sandra

> An anonymous phone call is probable cause to search?
> Someone *allegedly* made a call, someone that can not be found and/or verified.
> Over 400 people are taken from their homes on the word of a "social worker" that has mad an accusation.
> That is wrong.
> As far as he "age of consent", that is an arbitrary figure, and a recent development.
> It is different in different states. also less than 100 years ago it was common for girls 12 or 13 years old to get married. The fact that they are pregnant proves that the are "old enough" physically. That is nature. Laws that set an "age" are disregarding nature.
> 
> I am not a polygamist, or a Mormon, I just don't think the Government has any business being involved in religious persecution or reproductive affairs.
> This is another case of enforcing someones "morality" on someone else.


In the case of a minor reporting a crime, they are ALL anonymous. The press is not given the details of the report.

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## pcosmar

> In the case of a minor reporting a crime, they are ALL anonymous. The press is not given the details of the report.


The only thing they had ( as far as the news reports go) was a _alleged_ phone call, from someone that they can not prove exists.
They have not found the_ alleged_ caller, She was NOT at the location. She has NOT come forward.
Is there any PROOF that she exists or made a call?
Or is this a way to get into a private residence and harass the residents?

If there is no proof then what good is the guaranteed protection against unreasonable search and seizure.
There needs to be more evidence to get a warrant (at least there should be).
A call is only a reason to start an investigation, not for this action.

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## pcosmar

Facts that are *Known*.
http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/2...4899177026.txt



> The 16-year-old girl whose phone calls to a women’s shelter sparked the investigation still has not been located.


And a warrant was issued on?



> Excerpts from the affidavit, signed by child welfare investigator Lynn McFadden





> The girl has still not been located


I have searched through many news reports.
Most have the same "facts" and the same anti-polygamy bias.
No one seems to question the rights of the church members.
They are portrayed as a cult. 
Shades of Waco.

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## Bruno

Unless they had 400 search warrants, they overstepped the law and it will set precedent for events to follow. 

This is what the government does in every similar situation- look for an excuse to bend/break the law, then America gets used to one more freedom gone.  

IF those children were in danger, they could have sent people in to speak with them and assess the situation further without ripping them from their parents.  You can't get me to believe that every one of those children was in danger.  

Any children in danger should have been helped, but a blanket roundup is out of line.

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## allyinoh

> An anonymous phone call is probable cause to search?
> Someone *allegedly* made a call, someone that can not be found and/or verified.
> Over 400 people are taken from their homes on the word of a "social worker" that has mad an accusation.
> That is wrong.
> As far as he "age of consent", that is an arbitrary figure, and a recent development.
> It is different in different states. also less than 100 years ago it was common for girls 12 or 13 years old to get married. The fact that they are pregnant proves that the are "old enough" physically. That is nature. Laws that set an "age" are disregarding nature.
> 
> I am not a polygamist, or a Mormon, I just don't think the Government has any business being involved in religious persecution or reproductive affairs.
> This is another case of enforcing someones "morality" on someone else.


I agree with you there.  Do you know if it was the Federal government that went in or the state of Texas?

Why would they just go off of a phone call?  Why wouldn't they investigate it before going in and raiding it?  It just doesn't make sense.

Now we have all these people who will be assimilated into our culture not at their own will but at the will of the US government. I just don't get how that's "fair."

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## Charles Wilson

> The call gave them probable cause to search the premisis.  Upon searching, they found undoubtable evidence of minors having sex (pregnant children).  Further, the policies of those in charge of the compound did not allow inhabitants to leave at any time, which amounts to false imprisonment.
> 
> I think people have a right to live under whatever social arrangements they like, but when people are held in those arrangements against their will, or are beaten/raped, well, that's where the police have an obligation to step in, even in an ideal libertarian society.



You may be right but I have to ask: where and how did you get your facts? This whole thing smacks of totalitarianism. What authority does law enforcement have to remove (arrest?) 400 plus children from their homes with out the consent of the children's parents? Where in the Constitution does it say that the government can forceably take control of large groups of people, that the government does not agree with, against their will for their alleged safety when eminent danger is not apparent? 

This is another example of big brother. This begs the question: Will the government re-educate the children before they are allowed to return to their parents?  If so, what will the children be taught, and by whom?

First there was Waco and the Branch Dividians -- children and adults burned alive, next Terry Schivo was starved to death by court order, and now this. What other person or group is next? Native Americans on the Reservations have seperated themselves from the rest of society for the most part, will they be eradicated? How about the Mennonites? IMHO, you can take your pick; any group that does not fully support the government and the decadent ways of the American society is in danger of being labeled "not of this world" and sent off to a re-education camp. Also, if you are a free thinker you are in danger. It is outrageous!

When do we start getting chip implants?

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## Mopsus

> You may be right but I have to ask: where and how did you get your facts? This whole thing smacks of totalitarianism. What authority does law enforcement have to remove (arrest?) 400 plus children from their homes with out the consent of the children's parents? Where in the Constitution does it say that the government can forceably take control of large groups of people, that the government does not agree with, against their will for their alleged safety when eminent danger is not apparent? 
> 
> This is another example of big brother. This begs the question: Will the government re-educate the children before they are allowed to return to their parents?  If so, what will the children be taught, and by whom?
> 
> First there was Waco and the Branch Dividians -- children and adults burned alive, next Terry Schivo was starved to death by court order, and now this. What other person or group is next? Native Americans on the Reservations have seperated themselves from the rest of society for the most part, will they be eradicated? How about the Mennonites? IMHO, you can take your pick; any group that does not fully support the government and the decadent ways of the American society is in danger of being labeled "not of this world" and sent off to a re-education camp. Also, if you are a free thinker you are in danger. It is outrageous!
> 
> When do we start getting chip implants?


I am a strict Libertarian first and foremost. This FLDS issue in Texas has been something I've been seriously contemplating. 

First, I do confess to having a leaning to the protection of children. That being said, it is fundamentally crucial to ask yourself when does an individual have a right to their body? To decide what to do with it? Where to do it? With whom and with what to do it with? 

I believe that an individual must be at an age to be able to make a consented, rational, informed - or least be capable to make an informed decision before they are irrevocably bound by the decision of others upon their person,whether they are right or wrong.

I despise government intrusion into our daily lives. However, we as free people have chosen to be free by volition. These kids have not been given that opportunity. They are yoked with a responsibility for life without their informed consent.

While I oppose organized religion, I embrace the concept that if your religion does not injure me or my family and is reasonably non-violent, I don’t care what the heck you do. However, there are reasonable exceptions. Aztec human sacrifice is a veto and may I dare say impregnating a 12 year old against her will is IMHO also a veto.

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## AisA1787

You know what really gets me the most pissed off about the whole mess?  It was  a set up from the very beginning:




> Authorities believe the girl, who has an 8-month-old daughter, was 15 when she was married. A 2005 change in state law, prompted by concern about the sect, raised the state legal age for a girl to marry from 14 to 16.
> 
> http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5681283.html


They changed the laws to make the lifestyle of those church members illegal.  Lots of people obviously had it out for that church from the start.  They just needed an excuse to gain access to the "compound" so they could start rounding them all up.  I call shenanigans on the whole thing.

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## Charles Wilson

> I am a strict Libertarian first and foremost. This FLDS issue in Texas has been something I've been seriously contemplating. 
> 
> First, I do confess to having a leaning to the protection of children. That being said, it is fundamentally crucial to ask yourself when does an individual have a right to their body? To decide what to do with it? Where to do it? With whom and with what to do it with? 
> 
> I believe that an individual must be at an age to be able to make a consented, rational, informed - or least be capable to make an informed decision before they are irrevocably bound by the decision of others upon their person,whether they are right or wrong.
> 
> I despise government intrusion into our daily lives. However, we as free people have chosen to be free by volition. These kids have not been given that opportunity. They are yoked with a responsibility for life without their informed consent.
> 
> While I oppose organized religion, I embrace the concept that if your religion does not injure me or my family and is reasonably non-violent, I dont care what the heck you do. However, there are reasonable exceptions. Aztec human sacrifice is a veto and may I dare say impregnating a 12 year old against her will is IMHO also a veto.


I hear what you are saying but since when do we round up hundreds of people and hold them against their will -- for their alleged safety -- when the vast majority is not charged with a crime?

Those people should not be treated like a herd of cows where the whole herd is 
rounded up and destroyed because one or two may have Mad Cow's disease.

Who knows what the real truth is; the MSM propaganda mills are in full force whereas lies are fabricated and embellished -- no different than those lies fabricated by the Feds and broadcast during the Branch Dividian massacre where children and adults were trapped in a wooden compound and burned to death. The Feds would not allow fire trucks into the area to extinguish the fire and possibly save lives. 

The reporting of the massacre was covered by Mike Capps and Bonnie Anderson on CNN. At least one of those two despicable characters received an award for their reporting. In truth, they have blood on their hands for fanning the flames with their propaganda. How they live with their conscience is beyond me. Ron Paul wrote an excellent piece on that tragedy.

These acts of aggression against different groups of Americans are most likely trial balloons to see how the public will respond. If nobody cares, they will move to the next level and attack more and more of us -- hegemony can be a slow, deliberate process.  We are in the early stages of a move toward totalitarianism. Unfortunately, the nation has already embraced fascism.

That begs the question: When do we start getting the chip implants?

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## Charles Wilson

> You know what really gets me the most pissed off about the whole mess?  It was  a set up from the very beginning:
> 
> 
> 
> They changed the laws to make the lifestyle of those church members illegal.  Lots of people obviously had it out for that church from the start.  They just needed an excuse to gain access to the "compound" so they could start rounding them all up.  I call shenanigans on the whole thing.


+1

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## angelatc

> Laws are laws.  It isn't anti-libertarian to protect children.  And at least they didn't go in guns a-blazing as in Waco.
> 
> Wish I could attribute the quote, but I don't know who first said it:  Civilization's purpose is to protect preagnant women and children.  Everything else is just window dressing (or words to that effect).


Every law in the books is justified by exactly that sentiment.  I don't like the government coming and taking children.  Freedom means that sometimes people are going to make choices that aren't right, but I do think that children belong to the parents and not the state.

2 or 3 generations ago, most girls got married in their early teens.

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## Mopsus

Folks aren't we fighting sheeple in this revolution? While I agree that if you have the mind to become a sheep, that is your choice. However, children of sheeple have no choice to be sheep or be free. They are subject to the teachings of their  almighty omnipotent preacher and are forced to "the Bible says" every 2 seconds. Their parents are subject to this as well. All are, or will be, completely brainwashed.

Let's give the kids a chance to grow up and make their own minds. Isn't free will what we're all about? If this agrument was simply doctrinal, I'd say no problem, Mormonize away. But, this is about a permanent life alteration to an unwitting, innocent third party, and in 9 months a fourth party. 

Please don't mistake me, parents possess an absolute right to raise their children as they wish within very limited boundaries. However, even the Amish allow their kids an "opt out" option.

Oh BTW ,the adults are free to leave Texas DPS and CPS, and none have done so. I'm not sure whether it's to do with not wanting to leave their kids or fear. I'm sure we'll soon learn. Any way you slice it, yet another tragedy of organized religion.

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## tmosley

Well, I'm also against the statutory rape laws and such.  Rape is never consensual, nor is it an act of love (as statutory rape can be), and to say it is takes away from the horror of true rape, and only serves to stir up more hatred toward "pedophiles" (if you are a man and aren't attracted to an attractive physically adult female, then you are not a heterosexual).  This serves no other purpose than to impose stricter and stricter laws in the name of *THE CHILDREN*.  

All the facts have yet to come out in this case.  From what I heard from the media, the 16 year old who called for help said that she was beaten and raped by her "husband" (I use quotes because the marriage wasn't recognized in any state), but then "took it back" and said everything was fine and that she was happy.  The poor kids live in fear of being abandoned by their community for even speaking with outsiders, and she was reporting a crime to outside authorities.  If she were to come forward, she would probably be ostracized for the rest of her life.

You DO NOT have right to beat up a minor and get away with it.  You DO NOT have a right to rape someone and get away with it.  

What happened here is the correct function of state police.   They identified a crime ring and broke it up.  I think that the higher ups of that place should be sent to prison for the false imprisonment of every single person who ever wanted to leave, but couldn't.

I think that individuals have the right to practice plural marriage, but when it is forced on them, or when church elders can "reassign" wives to different people, they turn their women into little more than prostitutes (the sex slave kind, not the _should be_ legal voluntary kind), with the elders being nothing more than pimps.

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## pcosmar

> Well, I'm also against the statutory rape laws and such.  Rape is never consensual, nor is it an act of love (as statutory rape can be), and to say it is takes away from the horror of true rape, and only serves to stir up more hatred toward "pedophiles" (if you are a man and aren't attracted to an attractive physically adult female, then you are not a heterosexual).  This serves no other purpose than to impose stricter and stricter laws in the name of *THE CHILDREN*.  
> 
> All the facts have yet to come out in this case.  From what I heard from the media, the 16 year old who called for help said that she was beaten and raped by her "husband" (I use quotes because the marriage wasn't recognized in any state), but then "took it back" and said everything was fine and that she was happy.  The poor kids live in fear of being abandoned by their community for even speaking with outsiders, and she was reporting a crime to outside authorities.  If she were to come forward, she would probably be ostracized for the rest of her life.
> 
> You DO NOT have right to beat up a minor and get away with it.  You DO NOT have a right to rape someone and get away with it.  
> 
> What happened here is the correct function of state police.   They identified a crime ring and broke it up.  I think that the higher ups of that place should be sent to prison for the false imprisonment of every single person who ever wanted to leave, but couldn't.
> 
> I think that individuals have the right to practice plural marriage, but when it is forced on them, or when church elders can "reassign" wives to different people, they turn their women into little more than prostitutes (the sex slave kind, not the _should be_ legal voluntary kind), with the elders being nothing more than pimps.


Where are you getting these "_facts_"?

The _alleged_ husband was located in another state where he has been for some time. How was he abusing her?



> Texas authorities have not yet arrested Dale Barlow, the man alleged to be her husband, at his home in Colorado City, Ariz. Mr. Barlow reported to his Arizona probation officer as recently as Friday.


The _alleged_ victim was so controlled that she spent several days calling a shelter and speaking for over an hour at a time. That does not seem that she had NO freedom.



> During multiple calls to the shelter's crisis hotline – the first lasting 42 minutes – "Sarah" expressed fear of the outside world and the punishment she would receive if caught trying to escape. She also detailed sexual and physical abuse she had suffered at the hands of her 50-year-old husband, who fathered her child.


This_ alleged_  victim has not been positively identified, located or even proved to *exist*.

This is ALL based in the word of a social worker. The warrant, the evidence and the whole story are suspect.

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## Give me liberty

So who is so called alleged victim And where she is?


If the media doesnt want show her name  and photo, then that means its a set up. 

Funny in most cases the media always shows photo of the victim, but in this case, they dont. 

and also 

When the kids were taken by the feds, and isnt funny that the so called  alleged victim was not on the bus by the feds

Remember folks always question your reality.

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## Dr.3D

Those children will be taken away for reprogramming.  

Any beliefs opposing the system are subject to being broken down to allow the system to reprogram the children of those who have different beliefs so the status quo may be maintained.

We only know the hype the MSM is spinning on this entire event.

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## mconder

> They are yoked with a responsibility for life without their informed consent.


There are kids all across America being raised in this or that religious faith and become members of these faith groups based on what they are taught by their parents. Children have to be the property of someone or something until they are able to fend for themselves. Either it will be the parents or the state. Both will impose psychological frameworks or their own making that the children will live with for the rest of their lives. I prefer the randomness of parents in brainwashing their children to the totality of state. For the most part, at least one of them truly has the child's best interest as the end goal. So, polygamist children grow up in this paradigm and most become polygamist and some leave. The same can be true for evangelical christian parents. Most of their children grow up believing what they believe and some do not. Does this mean that the children were robbed of some other life experience...yes. But then who's to say there are not some redeeming aspects of the polygamist experience that we are being robbed of. It really a case of life not being fair. It's just not fair for anyone and I don't want the state legislating fairness.

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## mconder

One more thing that really bothers me in all this are the similarities with Waco. My gosh, it's freaking creepy! The media constantly talk of their homes and places of worship as compounds and they keep mentioning the possibility of weapons possession. As if owning a fire arm makes you guilty of abusing children. Has anyone else noticed this? Hell, 90% of the state of Texas probably have fire arms in their homes. Does this make them neglectful parents or something?

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## mconder

> So who is so called alleged victim And where she is?
> 
> 
> If the media doesnt want show her name  and photo, then that means its a set up. 
> 
> Funny in most cases the media always shows photo of the victim, but in this case, they dont. 
> 
> and also 
> 
> ...


I wouldn't doubt that the alleged "victim" is really a state provocateur to give them a reason to disband this community of rebels.

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## MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2

> So who is so called alleged victim And where she is?
> 
> 
> If the media doesnt want show her name  and photo, then that means its a set up. 
> 
> Funny in most cases the media always shows photo of the victim, but in this case, they dont.


It's not odd for the media to not post pictures of 16 year old rape victims (or accusers).  I don't see a problem with that by itself.




> its a set up.


Absolutely, I say.

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## NMCB3

At work today I walked in on what amounted to a "two minutes hate" directed at the "cult" in Texas. I said "what about presupposition of innocence, what about the 4th Amendment" ? They said they were abusing the children,they took over 400 children into custody" I said "no, they kidnapped over 400 children" They said "the girls were forced to have sex, a girl called the police and said so." I said "where is this girl? why don't we wait for the trial before we pass judgment, we don`t know for sure what these people did or didn`t do, and first accounts are notoriously inaccurate, besides the government is basically a pathological liar, especially when it comes to saving their own ass." They said "this is a pedophile cult, you are crazy, we should just drop a bomb on the place."  There you have it folks, the power of the government/media complex over reason. I don't expect people to deprogram themselves any time soon. The situation in America is just about hopeless.

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## Sandra

I know two sisters who were subject to this "religion".  Both women had to run away under fear of being found and killed.The boys that are born into this cult are either killed at birth or run off if their families joined after they were older. There are only a very few men there that do engage in group orgies with very underage, sometimes preteen girls. This is not a religion, it a sex slave camp run by Warren Jeff's associates, they falsley claim to be a religion so authorities will be hesitant about coming in. 

This is not a religion arguement.

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## pcosmar

> This is not a religion arguement.


This is true. It is *not* about religion, but religious persecution is part of it.
There are several issues at play here, including the religious beliefs of this sect. There is also normal human sexuality and the arbitrary "age of consent".  The state of Texas HAD JUST CHANGED IT'S LAWS, so they could go after this group. The law had legal marriages at 14 and chanced it . If there were marriages at 15 that had been legal at the time, and then the law was changed, should they go after them?

When does a girl become sexually active? I know from my life experience, and I know what the law says. 
The Law is an arbitrary figure.
My first experience was when I was 4 and she was 6. I have always been attracted to older women.
I had a girlfriend in High school that was much more experienced than me. She broke up with me and started dating a guy from the Air Force. I learned later that she had just turned 12.

Now I am 50, and my wife is 62. we have sheltered several women in our home over the years.
I have have a local Sheriff bring a beat and bloody girl to my home as a safe place to stay. I have seen several young girls with children that I think were TOO young to have kids, but they got that way by their own choice and lifestyle.

There are several issues in this case.
It is the Constitutional protections of privacy and religion that concern me. Though the social engineering and politically motivated laws are also a concern.
If these folks are actually abusive then it should be investigated, but it seems to be a politically motivated attack against their beliefs, and an end run around the Constitution.
Add to that, the warrant was based on the *word* of ONE Social Worker, with NO proof to back it up, and no victim has been identified,  and has disrupted the lives of hundreds of people.

Yes there are several issues other than "religion".

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## FreeTraveler

I think this is what you're looking for:




> *All societies are based on rules to protect pregnant women and young children. All else is surplusage, excrescence, adornment, luxury, or folly, which can  and must  be dumped in emergency to preserve this prime function.* As racial survival is the only universal morality, no other basic is possible. Attempts to formulate a "perfect society" on any foundation other than "Women and children first!" is not only witless, it is automatically genocidal. Nevertheless, starry-eyed idealists (all of them male) have tried endlessly  and no doubt will keep on trying.


Probably the most aware and observant individual who's lived in the last 100 years. This page is full of his quotes, some of the most intelligent writing I've ever read.




> Laws are laws. It isn't anti-libertarian to protect children. And at least they didn't go in guns a-blazing as in Waco.
> 
> Wish I could attribute the quote, but I don't know who first said it: Civilization's purpose is to protect preagnant women and children. Everything else is just window dressing (or words to that effect).

----------


## TxRedneck

After reading 4 pages of comments I can't help but think to myself, "what a bunch of sheep".  This case is not about these "poor abused little girls".  Its not about "Religous Freedom".  This case is all about a Federal Court Test Case on whether the Government can forcefully take a person's DNA sample, without their consent, without having been charged with any crime.

----------


## TastyWheat

From a constitutional perspective this raid was fully justified.  The Constitution clearly states that, "_Congress shall make no law..._"  So local authorities should be under no obligation to recognize or respect the religious practices of its citizens.  The question is, is right to intervene when religious practices contradict local law?  I'm kind of hesitant to say it, but I think the law reigns supreme on this one.

----------


## Dr.3D

> From a constitutional perspective this raid was fully justified.  The Constitution clearly states that, "_Congress shall make no law..._"  So local authorities should be under no obligation to recognize or respect the religious practices of its citizens.  The question is, is right to intervene when religious practices contradict local law?  I'm kind of hesitant to say it, but I think the law reigns supreme on this one.


So the constitution doesn't apply to states?   
Does this mean a state can say there will be a state religion or the lack there of?

----------


## Mopsus

> So the constitution doesn't apply to states?   
> Does this mean a state can say there will be a state religion or the lack there of?


Other than not requiring a religious test to hold office, the US Constitiution famously addressess religion in the 1st Amendment’s admonition to “separate Church from State.”

*U.S. Constitution - Amendment 1*
*Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press* 

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion (Emphasis added ), or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The framers went on to further to say that which we haven’t addressed in the US Constitution or its Amendments, shall reside within the purview of the States:

*Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People*

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

While I do not claim to have sufficent knowledge of Texas case law to form a completely cogent argument, it may be instructive to visit Art. I., Sec. 6 of the The Texas Constitution (See Below):

*The Texas Constitution*
*Article 1 - BILL OF RIGHTS*
*Section 6 - FREEDOM OF WORSHIP*

All men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own consciences. _No man shall be compelled to attend, erect or support any place of worship, or to maintain any ministry against his consent_. No human authority ought, in any case whatever, to control or interfere with the rights of conscience in matters of religion, and no preference shall ever be given by law to any religious society or mode of worship. _But it shall be the duty of the Legislature to pass such laws as may be necessary to protect equally every religious denomination in the peaceable enjoyment of its own mode of public worship. (Emphasis added)._

I suggest that raping a 12 year old girl is not “peaceable.” Furthermore, the State of Texas, if employing acceptable probable cause not in violation of the 4th Amendment of the US Constitution, was well with in its rights on Constitutionally legal and moral grounds. Last I heard, none of the grown women have elected to return to the compound.

----------


## pcosmar

> I suggest that raping a 12 year old girl is not “peaceable.” Furthermore, the State of Texas, if employing acceptable probable cause not in violation of the 4th Amendment of the US Constitution, was well with in its rights on Constitutionally legal and moral grounds. Last I heard, none of the grown women have elected to return to the compound.


No one is suggesting that rape is acceptable.

No one has ANY evidence that a rape has occurred

There is no evidence that the _alleged_ girl was at the church..There was a change in the Texas law recently ( as I understand it) that changed the law on legal marriage. It was legal at 14, and that has been changed to 16.

This is not about rape.
This is about Government control.
This is about an agency overstepping its bounds.
This is about displacing families against their will. 

The women have chosen to stay with the children to care for them and to protect them from a hostile environment.
Do you think these mothers should abandon their children to the state?

----------


## pcosmar

Some information other than the Official sanctioned story.
http://johnburkessociety.blogspot.co...-eldorado.html



> The DHS is still present though the federal government has no jurisdiction, and is remaining low profile.
> 
> Perhaps the DPS are jealous that their own daughters only hook-up, and never marry. So they abducted over 400 children, and the 130 women who left were their mothers, who rightly refused to allow CPS to take their children unattended.
> 
> So great is the trouble caused by the state that there are 700 CPS tyrants attempting to "treat" the religious home schooled children. This is a warning to the homeschoolers.


http://johnburkessociety.blogspot.co...verywhere.html



If you look around you can find that soon after the Mormons move there the library stocked up on anti -Mormon literature.
Folks there had wanted to get into the compound, but had no cause till now.
The only "evidence" is the is the word of the social worker that signed an affidavit.
She is the one that _allegedly_ spoke with the _alleged_ girl, that was_ allegedly_ at the temple.
This seems to have been orchestrated by churches in the area.

----------


## Corydoras

I notice that the reproductive rights organizations are peculiarly quiet. The reason the state of Kansas wanted George Tiller's records was to find out if he was giving abortions to underage girls and thereby concealing evidence of rape. In the FLDS case, large quantities of medical records have been seized by Texas, and will be used to find evidence of rape. Where are the reproductive rights people screaming for the medical privacy of the FLDS girls now? Nowhere, because abortion is not an issue here.

But I don't think there was any way to do this raid by the book, except that it was much better that the state authorities did it than the federal authoriies.

----------


## TastyWheat

> So the constitution doesn't apply to states?   
> Does this mean a state can say there will be a state religion or the lack there of?


Yes and no (for question 1).  It explicitly said, "_Congress shall make no law..._" so Congress shouldn't be infringing on our 1st amendment rights.  Any state, though wrong in practice, can infringe upon these rights.  I do, however, feel it is well within the rule of law for Congress to make laws preserving free speech, freedom of religion and other 1st amendment rights.

For question 2, I also think it's acceptable (though again, not ideal) for a state to have an established religion.

----------


## UtahApocalypse

I'm getting sicker, and more pissed about this everyday. the more I hear the more its a $#@!ing witch hunt. What is really making me disgusted is those who supposedly are 'freedom loving, Constitution following' individuals that are defending Texas and these raids. Damn we really have lost America, and we are handing over our rights one by one. 

You wont stand up for the rights of the FLDS? Well i wont stand up for you when your group is targeted next!

----------


## Uncle Emanuel Watkins

> This has bugged me from day one.  Of course Texas has the right to enforce state laws but how does looking for one teenage girl require the uprooting of a whole religious and civil society?


The Government can't visit a Church without confusing it with a military compound.  As a result, they immediately set about shooting the mother dog and her five suckling pups, blowing up, poisoning, shooting and burning your children before racking clean the crime scene.  The fact that the state of Texas is moving all the children to a safe haven before they obliterate the property is actually a good thing.  




> So, the Fundamental Mormans seem to be quacky?  So what?  They have the constitutional right to be that way.


From my point of view, the Catholic church is quacky.  But they are big.  The best way to destroy a small, weird religion is to accuse them of child abuse.  Our Puritan culture hates child abusers almost as much as they hated witches.  Thinking back on the U.S. victory over the Waco Davidians, I can still remember how both the liberals and conservatives hated them because they thought of them as both conservatives and liberals respectively.  So, the Davidians were destroyed because they came off apolitical.  In other words, no one in power cared.         




> Who's to say the Fundamental Baptist or the Fundamental Jehovah Witnesses won't be the next target?


They are also too large.  All cults have to be small and insignificant.  In my opinion, every Catholic Christian should be deprogrammed from the act of kneeling down to a man who they call father.  Just look at the huge amount of evidence of child abuse at the Catholic Church?  Why hasn't the Federal Government shut down the Catholic Church or raided them?  They are just too big of a political force.       




> We don't need the government trying to save us from ourselves.


But we are the government.  Sometimes I envy the Vietnamese because they they wacked the Federal government around and managed to get them bastards to mind their own business.  
In considering what is going on in Texas, just be thankful that it isn't the Federal government doing it.  I haven't seen the state using tanks to smash the children yet which is a good thing.  From what I've heard from the media, the young girls just need a lot of psychological and sociological help from having to be made to learn how to make their own clothes and take care of babies at the young age of eight.  They also seem to have suffered greatly from having to do the types of menial labor that housewives once had to do.

----------


## Sandra

> I'm getting sicker, and more pissed about this everyday. the more I hear the more its a $#@!ing witch hunt. What is really making me disgusted is those who supposedly are 'freedom loving, Constitution following' individuals that are defending Texas and these raids. Damn we really have lost America, and we are handing over our rights one by one. 
> 
> You wont stand up for the rights of the FLDS? Well i wont stand up for you when your group is targeted next!



....and your defense of sexual slavery? 
.....and child rape? 

You are sick!

----------


## UtahApocalypse

> ....and your defense of sexual slavery? 
> .....and child rape? 
> 
> You are sick!


I do not support what they are ACCUSED of doing, but whatever happened to Innocent until PROVEN guilty?

Its people like you who are giving are $#@!ing freedoms away you stupid bitch.

----------


## pcosmar

> ....and your defense of sexual slavery? 
> .....and child rape? 
> 
> You are sick!


What flavor is the MSM Kool-Aid these days?

You actually believe that bull$#@! that is being reported?

How do you know that the_ alleged_ phone call didn't come from the basement of the Baptist church? If there was a phone call at all.

How does a girl in a restricted environment get access to a cell phone?
Can't they trace a cell phone to see who owned it?

So many questions and so few real answers.

----------


## Sandra

So some of you believe that doing anything including taking freedom away from another is protected in the Constitution as long as it is claimed as a religion? No, it's not. AS LONG AS ANOTHER PERSON"S FREEDOM IS NOT INFRINGED UPON, then it's protected.

----------


## Sandra

> I do not support what they are ACCUSED of doing, but whatever happened to Innocent until PROVEN guilty?
> 
> Its people like you who are giving are $#@!ing freedoms away you stupid bitch.


I am very familiar with these groups. YES! they prefer children to adult women! They also use your tax dollars to support all of these kids.

----------


## Sandra

They are controled on the way they dress by a leader's whim. read the whole article how this controlled the women's time.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_8908641

http://www.catholic.org/national/nat...y.php?id=27564




> The problems of the FLDS have also hindered the efforts of groups that consider themselves pro-polygamy. Mary Batchelor, director of Principle Voices, told the Washington Post that her group has worked closely with authorities in both Utah and Arizona to develop a “safety network” to educate polygamists on child and sexual abuse and called for the communities to forbid underage marriages, allowing only legal adults to marry. 
> 
> "We've made a lot of headway with other groups who pledged to marry as adults and who took public pledges to discourage underage marriages," Batchelor told the Post. "The FLDS was the only group that was not willing to agree to that.

----------


## pcosmar

> They are controled on the way they dress by a leader's whim. read the whole article how this controlled the women's time.
> 
> http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_8908641
> 
> http://www.catholic.org/national/nat...y.php?id=27564


If only they were hanging around with "normal" girls like these.
http://www.mahalo.com/Victoria_Lindsay
http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...a_lindsay.html

they would be much better off.

----------


## Sandra

I'm getting concerned with the lack of concern with some male member's posts. I said "some", not all.

I guess those little girls "had it coming".

----------


## pcosmar

> I'm getting concerned with the lack of concern with some male member's posts. I said "some", not all.
> 
> I guess those little girls "had it coming".


If there is/was any actual abuse, it should be investigated and prosecuted. However in this case there is much evidence of persecution, by local churches and social agencies.
The State laws were even changed to make a legal marriage Illegal.
Add to that the questionable tactics used to gain access to private property, the forcible removal of women from their home, and the conditions that these women and children must now endure.
I am not defending rape or child abuse. 
I do not know that it was or was not happening.
I do know that religious persecution IS taking place and has for some time.
I believe that the STATE is overstepping it's bounds.
That is my concern.

----------


## Kade

> If there is/was any actual abuse, it should be investigated and prosecuted. However in this case there is much evidence of persecution, by local churches and social agencies.
> The State laws were even changed to make a legal marriage Illegal.
> Add to that the questionable tactics used to gain access to private property, the forcible removal of women from their home, and the conditions that these women and children must now endure.
> I am not defending rape or child abuse. 
> I do not know that it was or was not happening.
> I do know that religious persecution IS taking place and has for some time.
> I believe that the STATE is overstepping it's bounds.
> That is my concern.


Does it really makes it difference if women and children are involved? Just curious.

----------


## UtahApocalypse

> If there is/was any actual abuse, it should be investigated and prosecuted. However in this case there is much evidence of persecution, by local churches and social agencies.
> The State laws were even changed to make a legal marriage Illegal.
> Add to that the questionable tactics used to gain access to private property, the forcible removal of women from their home, and the conditions that these women and children must now endure.
> I am not defending rape or child abuse. 
> I do not know that it was or was not happening.
> I do know that religious persecution IS taking place and has for some time.
> I believe that the STATE is overstepping it's bounds.
> That is my concern.


I completely agree yet so many cannot even see beyond there own indoctrination. I thought of all people Ron Paul supporters would understand that you can't pick and choose when it's ok to follow or not follow the Constitution. After reading all these "protect the children" apologists I understand now why true liberty will never flourish in America. 

Just as pcosmer I don't defend child rape or abuse, I do however support the Constitution. I support it for EVERYONE, and EVERYTIME.

----------


## Sandra

> I completely agree yet so many cannot even see beyond there own indoctrination. I thought of all people Ron Paul supporters would understand that you can't pick and choose when it's ok to follow or not follow the Constitution. After reading all these "protect the children" apologists I understand now why true liberty will never flourish in America. 
> 
> Just as pcosmer I don't defend child rape or abuse, I do however support the Constitution. I support it for EVERYONE, and EVERYTIME.



Answer just one question. If you were to receive a call from a girl asking for help in this situation, what would you have done?

 If you can't answer the question then everything you say is just vapor.

----------


## Sandra

> However in this case there is much evidence of persecution, by local churches and social agencies.


Where?

----------


## UtahApocalypse

> Answer just one question. If you were to receive a call from a girl asking for help in this situation, what would you have done?
> 
>  If you can't answer the question then everything you say is just vapor.


I PERSONALLY? Well I would get her help. 

The GOVERNMENT? They should help, but thy MUST follow the Rule of Law. You cannot just jump in and take hundreds of people without evidence. You also cannot just make a blanket search based on one, or even a couple reports. 

Sandra I bet you LOVE the $#@!ing Patriot Act, you probably feel much "safer" its morons such as you that have traded our freedoms away for the perception of "safety"

----------


## Uncle Emanuel Watkins

> I am very familiar with these groups. YES! they prefer children to adult women! They also use your tax dollars to support all of these kids.


Just not as bad as do Catholic priests.  So, the definition of a cult is anything that is small and insignificant?  If you happen to belong to the large cult like the Catholic religion your compound is immune from prosecution by tyranny?  Why don't they ever kill Catholic dogs?  What policy do they abide by that keeps them from blowing up, poisoning, shooting and burning Catholic children?  Why do they only kill the dogs and children of small, weird religions?  Just what in the hell is a compound?  When does a Church stop being a Church and start being a compound?

----------


## constituent

> The only thing they had ( as far as the news reports go) was a _alleged_ phone call, from someone that they can not prove exists.
> They have not found the_ alleged_ caller, She was NOT at the location. She has NOT come forward.
> Is there any PROOF that she exists or made a call?
> Or is this a way to get into a private residence and harass the residents?


aratus,

hst covered this in his last book.  prophetic indeed (to his credit).

----------


## Sandra

> Sandra I bet you LOVE the $#@!ing Patriot Act, you probably feel much "safer" its morons such as you that have traded our freedoms away for the perception of "safety"


You do realize that ending a post with this stuff makes everything above it forgotten.

----------


## constituent

i wonder how asset forfeiture will apply here?

anyone know what the real estate was worth?

that's probably the real answer.  it's how things are done in texas.

prolly had nothing to do w/ their religion or how they were living their lives...

some chump saw a way to setup someone they didn't like, and some cop saw a chance to get paid.

in texas, (a minimum of) 90% of the time that's it.

----------


## UtahApocalypse

> Just not as bad as do Catholic priests.  So, the definition of a cult is anything that is small and insignificant?  If you happen to belong to the large cult like the Catholic religion your compound is immune from prosecution by tyranny?  Why don't they ever kill Catholic dogs?  What policy do they abide by that keeps them from blowing up, poisoning, shooting and burning Catholic children?  Why do they only kill the dogs and children of small, weird religions?  Just what in the hell is a compound?  When does a Church stop being a Church and start being a compound?


Good to see someone gets it.




> When the Texas Rangers came for the Polygamists,
> I remained silent;
> I was not a Polygamist.
> 
> When they locked up the Tax protesters,
> I remained silent;
> I was not a Tax protester.
> 
> When they came for the Gun Rights supporters,
> ...

----------


## driller80545

If it's not like "Leave it to Beaver", then it doesn't fit into the illusion! Of course, it's not Andy Griffin that they sent out there to straighten up those perverts. Ha, good ol Texas family values.

----------


## pcosmar

> Answer just one question. If you were to receive a call from a girl asking for help in this situation, what would you have done?
> 
>  If you can't answer the question then everything you say is just vapor.


A logical question, and one I ask myself.

First I would verify the caller, and try to find out if any information can be verified.
Did the call come from the location claimed or another location? Who is the Phone registered to?
Who is the" Husband", and is he or has he been in the area?
In this "highly controlled environment" are cell phones common? How is she able to make this call or calls if she is under someones "control"?

It is called INVESTIGATION, and it should be done BEFORE  a warrant is issued.
Unless, of course, there is an agenda.

Now, what is known.
First, the _alleged_ husband is NOT and has not lately been in Texas.
He is under supervision in another State, and denies knowing this girl.

Second, NO GIRL, this is all based on a_ alleged_ phone call. We are expected to take the word of the social worked that claims it happened.

There has been a ongoing and pervasive persecution of this group.
The local library stocked up on anti-Mormon literature. The local churches are actively involved in the abduction of the Women and Children.
Folks there have wanted to get inside the private property for some time but had no grounds until this_ alleged_ phone call.
NO arrests were made, but a searce was done to find out IF there may have been any crime committed.

There is more here than the Media spin would indicate.

----------


## constituent

UtahApacalypse said:




> When the Texas Rangers came for the Polygamists,
> I remained silent;
> I was not a Polygamist.
> 
> When they locked up the Tax protesters,
> I remained silent;
> I was not a Tax protester.
> 
> When they came for the Gun Rights supporters,
> ...


They're hunting down "illegals" like dogs everyday in this state, where is the outrage?

Where is the justification for valuing these individuals' lives and freedoms more than any others?

----------


## UtahApocalypse

> UtahApacalypse said:
> 
> 
> 
> They're hunting down "illegals" like dogs everyday in this state, where is the outrage?
> 
> Where is the justification for valuing these individuals' lives and freedoms more than any others?


Easy... Illegals are not Citizens of these United States and thus not protected by the Constitution. The members of the FLDS Church ARE like it or not.

----------


## constituent

> Easy... Illegals are not Citizens of these United States and thus not protected by the Constitution. The members of the FLDS Church ARE like it or not.


ok then, drug dealers.  get off the persecution complex.  their religion was secondary at best in terms of the cops decision to raid.  

is polygamy a constitutionally protected right?  i guess that's the question here?

no, of course not. 

is polygamy a religious freedom thing?  i don't think so.  

i reckon you could justify nearly anything if you peg it to a religion.

in terms of individual liberty, do i support their right to live that way?  absolutely.

are laws prohibiting their chosen lifestyle wrong, even tyrannical?  or course.

that said, if there are laws in the state prohibiting that lifestyle or behavior, then
expect that one day tptb might just come knockin'

don't holler religious persecution though simply b/c i don't agree w/ your stance.
(or for that matter, an all out And Who Will Kill You... bit on me)

i do however agree w/ pcosmar's stance.  there is the constitutional protection for you.  
basing your justification on religious practice however, well.. good luck on that.

----------


## UtahApocalypse

Actually I am not even touching the religious persecution angle. My big concern has been the 4th amendment that was completely thrown away.

----------


## constituent

> Actually I am not even touching the religious persecution angle. My big concern has been the 4th amendment that was completely thrown away.


amen to that, long gone unfortunately.  

par for the course these days.

"the american republic is in remnant status."  
-ron paul

----------


## NMCB3

The accused is innocent until sufficient evidence PROVES BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT otherwise, and the government must follow and is not above the law. What is so $#@!ing hard to understand about that?.... This forum has some of the smartest, and dumbest SOB`s on the net.

----------


## klamath

> Easy... Illegals are not Citizens of these United States and thus not protected by the Constitution. The members of the FLDS Church ARE like it or not.


Were in the constitution does it say only US citizens in this country are covered by the constitution?  This is the same idea that holds non citizens in Gitmo.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> ....and your defense of sexual slavery? 
> .....and child rape? 
> 
> You are sick!


Ok Nancy Grace (aka Sandra), we know you're on here...

And obviousy you must have first hand, eye-witness knowledge of the hundreds of rapes (and slavery) that took place? If that really is the case, we will all expect and support a lot of convictions on these charges.

Will you be called to the witness stand? Perhaps you will take an oath or affirmation to support your claims and accusations in this thread?

------

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

----------


## Dr.3D

LOL, Nancy Grace is an alarmist bitch.   When ever something happens, she has somebody guilty before they have even gone to trial.  Anybody else notice how nearly all prosecuting attorneys are the same way?   Guilty until proven innocent.   It is pretty hard for somebody to prove themselves innocent when so many are pointing a finger at them and saying they are guilty.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> Laws are laws.  It isn't anti-libertarian to protect children.  And at least they didn't go in guns a-blazing as in Waco.
> 
> Wish I could attribute the quote, but I don't know who first said it:  Civilization's purpose is to protect preagnant women and children.  Everything else is just window dressing (or words to that effect).


I'm sure Ron Paul will lead us in a crusade to save the children from any and all threats, imaginary or real...including the biggest threat of all to our children, the Constitution.

----------


## Dr.3D

> I'm sure Ron Paul will lead us in a crusade to save the children from any and all threats, imaginary or real...including the biggest threat of all to our children, *the Constitution*.


Shouldn't that be... *the erosion of the Constitution*?

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> Shouldn't that be... *the erosion of the Constitution*?


Sorry, that was supposed to be ironic sarcasm... I should have made that more clear. Of course erosion of our Constitution is a _real_ danger to our children.

Erosion of our Constitution is often justified by the "for the children" argument. As a matter of fact, just about anything can be justified with that emotional argument. It's the "ends justify the means" way of thinking, and if the "ends" is "protecting the children", then any "means" is justified (a false and dangerous path). If that includes suspending the Constitution and taking every child in the country into the "protective custody" of the government, then that's ok to some people.

Those who want to eliminate the Second Amendment (right to bear arms) often use "for the children" arguement too.

As I write this, the tv news just said that there is a proposal to randomly search houses for guns to "protect teens" from gun violence....

----------


## Aratus

the kids who had been isolated and raised on the compound
without the normal round of childhood vaccinations right after
being seperated from their mothers in a central holding area
are getting chickenpox. there are at least 15 cases, these are
kids who are older, who weren't exposed earlier. the situation
is going from bad to worse, the mothers are furious at being
seperated from their children. one group of mothers went back
to the mormon ranch, the others went into a womans shelter.
uncle sam is trying to be a legal guardian, and have 400 cases
happen in tandem, wheread normally the authorities would spend
weeks or months per case per child. this is almost a zoo and its the feds.

----------


## UtahApocalypse

Why has Ron Paul not addressed this?? It in Texas his home state!!!! I seriously will NEVER visit Texas after this. I hope the do leave the United States, they don't deserve the Freedom were fighting for.

----------


## constituent

> Why has Ron Paul not addressed this?? It in Texas his home state!!!! I seriously will NEVER visit Texas after this. I hope the do leave the United States, they don't deserve the Freedom were fighting for.




if you can't figure out the way the game is played here, you are probably better off not visiting.  these folks could have used your advice...

...and what would you have everyone do?  

and as for the comment klamath made above?

the entire world is injustice.  

i still want to know what will become of all the property after the convictions start rolling.

----------


## UtahApocalypse

some new information. below is the actual affidavit for the search warrant. Reading through it I can find that they were to search EVERYWHERE (blanket warrant which have been shown unconstitutional in the past) They were to search for Dale Barlow, who has not been in Texas for 20 years and is under watch by a parole officer in Arizona. Also in the affidavit it mentions his conviction in Az but nothing about him being on parole. (so there was not investigation beforehand?) Lastly they were looking for a teenage female, reportedly pregnant. And the final straw in all of this..... The entire thing is based on 1 I repeat ONE phone call, not even to police but to a shelter. There is no call record available, no recordings. So if ANY of you can show me how this is at all constitutional I would love to hear it.

http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/FLDSaffidavit.pdf

----------


## truelies

> Laws are laws.  It isn't anti-libertarian to protect children. ....................



'protected' from WHAT??????

----------


## Primbs

Michael Savage has put this at the top of his webpage.

http://www.michaelsavage.com/

Here are two stories linked to his page.

Polygamous mystery: Does allegedly abused teen bride 'Sarah' exist?
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8941294

FLDS custody hearing: Genetic tests sought for polygamous kids, parents

http://origin.sltrib.com/ci_8957324

----------


## torchbearer

Actually it brings up the heart of this atrocity.
Its called "King as Father". Our governments own our children. They have the "right" to take them from you. That is our current socialist system. Its like that in every state.
You the parent, do not have full right over your child. Yet- you hold full responsibility for them.

As long as things like public schools exist, we have given our government parental rights over our children. Because, now, the government has a role as parent in raising your child, and thus has a vested interest, that started with your government granted marriage.
There were three parties in that marriage, you, your mate, and the government. All three parties have a vested interest in the fruits of that marriage.

----------


## Sandra

We are paying for their "religion":

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4005519.shtml

They are also granted no bid defense contracts:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/5700662.html

So apparently they are funded by special someones in state government and didn't want to play by the rules. So the FLDS screws us all to pay for their "ranch". Makes me wonder what else is going on there. The state of Texas looks like they are covering their ass.

----------


## pcosmar

> They are also granted no bid defense contracts:


Where do you find that they are no bid contracts?
I found this.
http://deepbackground.msnbc.msn.com/...13/886162.aspx



> A Defense Department spokesman says the Pentagon didn't do anything wrong. He tells NBC News that the Defense Department does "not consider religious affiliation" when awarding contracts and relies on cost and performance in selecting contractors.
> 
> And the Defense Department was apparently pleased with Western Precision's work. In 2002, it honored the company with its "Innovative Business Performer of the Year" award.


Your other "source" is



> according to *Early Show* national correspondent* Hattie Kauffman*


How about facts rather than opinions.

----------


## torchbearer

We wouldn't hand over our car to a complete stranger, why do we hand over our kids to complete strangers in public schools?

----------


## Sandra

I know two sisters that were in the FLDS. One of them said they were a perfect choice for secret government crap because there is no paper trail to show identity. They don't have birth certificates or social security cards. But yet they let them apply for benefits from the state. Who pays that bill?

----------


## UtahApocalypse

I swear this issue is growing on me more with every new report  I honestly think this will be the case to test the Constitution more then any before. There are many aspects that can be weighed in on from religious freedoms, to 4th amendment rights. the judge that currently is running the case is the same one who issued the unconstitutional blanket warrant, she has a vested interest. There is NO way she will not rule in favor of eachand every thing the State CPS asks for. 

The scarier part is that most everyone agrees with Texas. there are not thousands of people converging on San Angelo demanding due process for the families. the State knew going in that the FLDS were a misunderstood, and hated group. They know thay can play the "Save the children" card and do anything legal or not. 

Why are our freedom loving Texans not their? If I did not start a new job next week I would be their.

----------


## Sandra

> Where do you find that they are no bid contracts?
> I found this.
> http://deepbackground.msnbc.msn.com/...13/886162.aspx
> 
> 
> Your other "source" is
> 
> 
> How about facts rather than opinions.


You can Google it for yourself but something tells me you won't.

----------


## torchbearer

> I swear this issue is growing on me more with every new report  I honestly think this will be the case to test the Constitution more then any before. There are many aspects that can be weighed in on from religious freedoms, to 4th amendment rights. the judge that currently is running the case is the same one who issued the unconstitutional blanket warrant, she has a vested interest. There is NO way she will not rule in favor of eachand every thing the State CPS asks for. 
> 
> The scarier part is that most everyone agrees with Texas. there are not thousands of people converging on San Angelo demanding due process for the families. the State knew going in that the FLDS were a misunderstood, and hated group. They know thay can play the "Save the children" card and do anything legal or not. 
> 
> Why are our freedom loving Texans not their? If I did not start a new job next week I would be their.


QFT! That judge isn't going to rule against her warrant. She would make herself look like a fool because she is the one who said their was probable cause to begin with... this needs to be heard by another judge and I hope the attorneys for the parents brings this up in court, at least it would be on record for any appeals.

----------


## pcosmar

> You can Google it for yourself but something tells me you won't.


Googled, several ways, only found one reference in a blog entry with no source.
Post your sources. 
All I find is" Awarded contract" and,



> And the Defense Department was apparently pleased with Western Precision's work. In 2002, it honored the company with its "Innovative Business Performer of the Year" award.


If you have facts, not random opinion or hate filled spew, please post it.

----------


## Sandra

> Googled, several ways, only found one reference in a blog entry with no source.
> Post your sources. 
> All I find is" Awarded contract" and,
> 
> 
> If you have facts, not random opinion or hate filled spew, please post it.


What would you REQUIRE?

If I brought you 2 former members of the sect, I suppose that would be refuted as invalid proof as well.

----------


## pcosmar

> What would you REQUIRE?
> 
> If I brought you 2 former members of the sect, I suppose that would be refuted as invalid proof as well.


Well I would like to see facts. I am not interested in emotional ravings, or unsupported opinion.

I could bring 2 members of the Catholic Church to rant about Catholics.
I can point to the Westboro Baptist Church as a bad example.
http://www.godhatesfags.com/
I could find several cases of children that did not get their own way and told a story.
That still does not give the Government an excuse to destroy a hundred families, or execute a search warrant on only the word of a Government official.
Suspicion is grounds for an investigation, not for a warrant.
In this case NO investigation was done till after the fact, and that investigation is showing the holes in the story.

----------


## torchbearer

> Well I would like to see facts. I am not interested in emotional ravings, or unsupported opinion.
> 
> I could bring 2 members of the Catholic Church to rant about Catholics.
> I can point to the Westboro Baptist Church as a bad example.
> http://www.godhatesfags.com/
> I could find several cases of children that did not get their own way and told a story.
> That still does not give the Government an excuse to destroy a hundred families, or execute a search warrant on only the word of a Government official.
> Suspicion is grounds for an investigation, not for a warrant.
> In this case NO investigation was done till after the fact, and that investigation is showing the holes in the story.


QFT.

----------


## Sandra

What do you require?  .... perhaps a bigger font. Your answer?

----------


## pcosmar

> What do you require?  .... perhaps a bigger font. Your answer?


I have already answered you.



> Originally Posted by* pcosmar * 
> Well I would like to see facts. I am not interested in emotional ravings, or unsupported opinion.


Or does it need to be in larger font?

----------


## Highland

The issue is that they took all the kids...Children and family services is supposed to deal on a family by family case...not the whole community.

----------


## UtahApocalypse

> The issue is that they took all the kids...Children and family services is supposed to deal on a family by family case...not the whole community.


For me the issue is not *what* they did but it is *HOW* they did it.

----------


## UtahApocalypse

Ipdate: Its getting even worse 

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8957324



> Attorney Amy Hennington, who represents some of the fathers, then objected. She argued it had been unfair to question the girls because they didn't know they were part of an investigation, did not understand the nature of the questions they were being asked and could have incriminated themselves.
>     Furthermore, Hennington said, the girls were minors and could not be represented by their own attorneys, even as the state sought to take their children into custody. 
> *Judge Barbara Walther* *overruled* the objection and admitted the reports into evidence.


Yes the same Judge that issued the unconstitutional blanket Warrant also thinks its ok to interogate children without council or even a parent present.

----------


## Sandra

> The issue is that they took all the kids...Children and family services is supposed to deal on a family by family case...not the whole community.


    +1  

How in heck are they going to get anything done like this?

----------


## constituent

> I know two sisters that were in the FLDS. One of them said they were a perfect choice for secret government crap because there is no paper trail to show identity. They don't have birth certificates or social security cards. But yet they let them apply for benefits from the state. Who pays that bill?


[cricket, cricket]

more mkultra

blank slates, empty canvases

----------


## constituent

> Why are our freedom loving Texans not their? If I did not start a new job next week I would be their.


lol, there's always some reason.  as for the freedom lovers in texas... 

many have too many friends/family in *prison* on even more tenuous/unconstitutional cases 
to go picket outside san angelo for some folks who frankly, knew they were riding for a fall...

and who knows?  i'm sure an equal number of people disagree w/ the
actions of the police, but have no sympathy for the flds and feel that
the children are probably better off... not saying they are, just that
i assure you there are no shortage of individuals who feel that way.

if they were looking for understanding/sympathy they should have stuck
to utah or idaho.  moving to san angelo was nothing short of asking for it.

sorry that that's how things are, but that's how they are.

----------


## Geronimo

Is it just me or does anyone else get the feeling that these kids are currently in just as much (if not more) danger?

----------


## UtahApocalypse

> if they were looking for understanding/sympathy they should have stuck
> to utah or idaho.  moving to san angelo was nothing short of asking for it.
> 
> sorry that that's how things are, but that's how they are.


Living in Utah I can tell you by far the FLDS are getting less sympathy here then I have seen in many areas. Many of the LDS faith want to distance themselves so much from the FLDS they will tow the line, even though their history is the same. Many of the LDS forget that for Utah to become a state they had to drop the practice of polygamy. 

The FLDS are like that cousin that never comes to the family reunions and no one ever talks about.

----------


## Dr.3D

> Is it just me or does anyone else get the feeling that these kids are currently in just as much (if not more) danger?


It is not just you who has that feeling.... the reprogramming of those children is going to be a long row to hoe for the state of Texas.   If and when they decide the programming is complete, will the children be placed with foster parents who are possibly worse than the allegedly bad parents they came from?

----------


## Meatwasp

The last word I read in either Worldnet Daily or Drudge Report , I forgot which ,is they found the woman and she wasn't even living there when she made the call. She is in Co. and the man she acused was gone at the time.

----------


## tmosley

I heard that out of 400+ children they took, only 4 or 5 were pregnant.  That's something like a 1% incidence, which is no worse than any other small town.  That they took ALL of the children is insanity.  Perhaps if they took the ones who were pregnant, or just the females between 10 and 16, or something like that.

----------


## torchbearer

> The last word I read in either Worldnet Daily or Drudge Report , I forgot which ,is they found the woman and she wasn't even living there when she made the call. She is in Co. and the man she acused was gone at the time.


Can you find a link on that?
If this ends up blowing up in the Judge's face, I want to make this an issue here in Louisiana too.

----------


## Meatwasp

Worldnet daily has it. She is a 33 year old woman who has a history of phoning police and acting like a child in distress. I don't know how to paste it here so look it up or some nice  person to bring it in here.

----------


## UtahApocalypse

> Can you find a link on that?
> If this ends up blowing up in the Judge's face, I want to make this an issue here in Louisiana too.


Its starting to get mainstream coverage: http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8969094



> COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. -- Texas Rangers are investigating whether a Colorado Springs woman made calls pretending to be an abused girl in a polygamist compound, sparking a mass child protective action in Eldorado, Texas.....


If ever a case would challenge so many aspects of what American freedoms and Rights are this will be the case to validate, or eradicate the whole Constitution. This now is THE paramount case our entire nation as we know it will be decided upon.

----------


## torchbearer

> Worldnet daily has it. She is a 33 year old woman who has a history of phoning police and acting like a child in distress. I don't know how to paste it here so look it up or some nice  person to bring it in here.


what term did you use to find it on worldnet search?

----------


## torchbearer

Here: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...w&pageId=61963


Rozita Swinton





> Colorado woman investigated as polygamy-hoax caller
> 33-year-old reportedly has history of phoning police as child in distress
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Posted: April 18, 2008
> 3:50 am Eastern
> 
> © 2008 WorldNetDaily 
> 
> ...

----------


## UtahApocalypse

So a new question now emerges.... To me it is quite clear that none of the evidence collected is admissible as it is 'fruit of the poisonous tree' but how will this effect the CPS case?

This is just getting so messy, Texas is toast

----------


## pcosmar

*Interesting.*
It somewhat confirms my initial questions about this case.

For those that don't trust WND as a reliable source, here are two more.
http://cbs4denver.com/local/swinton.....2.702940.html
http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4678143&page=1

This Investigation should be done* before* a warrant is issued.

----------


## torchbearer

> *Interesting.*
> It somewhat confirms my initial questions about this case.
> 
> For those that don't trust WND as a reliable source, here are two more.
> http://cbs4denver.com/local/swinton.....2.702940.html
> http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4678143&page=1
> 
> This Investigation should be done* before* a warrant is issued.


Thanks for the additional links.

----------


## UtahApocalypse

> This Investigation should be done* before* a warrant is issued.


Agreed. they could have asked the Judge for a Court Order for the phone records for the shelter.  They then could determine the number, and then location of the call. But Texas did not do this for one reason, and one reason only.... They WANTED a excuse to Raid the FLDS.

----------


## constituent

> Living in Utah I can tell you by far the FLDS are getting less sympathy here then I have seen in many areas. Many of the LDS faith want to distance themselves so much from the FLDS they will tow the line, even though their history is the same. Many of the LDS forget that for Utah to become a state they had to drop the practice of polygamy. 
> 
> The FLDS are like that cousin that never comes to the family reunions and no one ever talks about.


rather unfortunate.  other than the obvious, what are some of the other doctrinal differences between the two?

----------


## UtahApocalypse

> rather unfortunate.  other than the obvious, what are some of the other doctrinal differences between the two?


I really don't know. I'm not any religion myself. but watching the local news boards you can really sense the discourse.

----------


## MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2

According to:  http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/18/...ody/index.html




> In court Thursday, Texas state officials presented records they said show 10 women were either married or pregnant as minors. The list was found during the raid, locked in a safe at a main ranch office building, the officials said.


So, that's what they have right now??  And it still justifies imprisoning hundreds of children?

If that's it, it seems they should be raiding homes all over america.  And why would anyone keep such a list locked in a safe?  So those bad polygamists can reward them later?

----------


## constituent

sounds planted to me.

"we searched for hours, and what do you know! it was in the very bottom little back corner of the last place we checked!
-got 'em boys, you can go home."

----------


## kpitcher

There was an op-ed piece in my weekend paper. The main concerns it brought up were that police took all cellphones from the mothers once they were in custody, and that the men were held in their homes for 24 hours. The equivalent of locking people up without a warrant is the scariest thing to me. I can only assume some huge lawsuits are going to be filed against every agency involved. 

I've heard some of the horror stories from past members, so the concern for going into the place can be understood. It would seem like that would be incentive for those in charge to be extra diligent to make sure no legal issues allowed any potential guilty parties to get off on technicalities. Talk about a time to dot every I and cross every T. I don't get the going in willy nilly and doing so many things so wrongly.

----------


## pcosmar

> There was an op-ed piece in my weekend paper. The main concerns it brought up were that police took all cellphones from the mothers once they were in custody, and that the men were held in their homes for 24 hours. The equivalent of locking people up without a warrant is the scariest thing to me. I can only assume some huge lawsuits are going to be filed against every agency involved. 
> 
> I've heard some of the horror stories from past members, so the concern for going into the place can be understood. It would seem like that would be incentive for those in charge to be extra diligent to make sure no legal issues allowed any potential guilty parties to get off on technicalities. Talk about a time to dot every I and cross every T. I don't get the going in willy nilly and doing so many things so wrongly.


I have heard "horror stories" from "normal" homes and families. I have also heard "horror stories" or children service workers, manipulating children to make a case.
I have also heard that children LIE to get their way.

It seems now that this whole case was based on a lie.
All the emotional responses to polygamy are irrelevant, Their rights were violated on a massive scale.

----------


## Gadsden Flag

Dunno if this has been posted yet, I didn't read the whole thing:

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_8993150?source=rss


Damn.

----------


## JaylieWoW

> You know what really gets me the most pissed off about the whole mess?  It was  a set up from the very beginning:
> 
> 
> 
> They changed the laws to make the lifestyle of those church members illegal.  Lots of people obviously had it out for that church from the start.  They just needed an excuse to gain access to the "compound" so they could start rounding them all up.  I call shenanigans on the whole thing.


I agree mostly with this statement, though I admit I have not read all 11 pages of this post yet.

This subject came up on another message board.  I suspected right away the call was a "hoax" to begin with, though I admit my suspicion was someone particularly busybody like in another church in the area (or group of individuals from the same church or neighborhood).

I have to agree with one of the things Ron Paul constantly reminds us and is well quoted by Thomas Jefferson:




> *Original Post by Thomas Jefferson*
> "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."


There are many cultures, religions, etc. in the world we as individuals will never understand and, as in this case, find to be distasteful or otherwise shameful.  However, it is apparent these people believe strongly in their religion and I've yet to see any conclusive evidence of children being "neglected" or "abused".  I happened to catch Nancy Grace this very evening where the "former" FLDS woman was talking about how psychologically abused these children were.  When asked to give an example of the abuse all of her responses sounded very much like corporal punishment and other various punishments (some I might not agree with, but certainly wouldn't categorize as "abuse", else many parents should be put on trial).  If there were more substantial abuse, I know it would have been milked for all it was worth.  All they could do was play the same questions over and over and the same intro tape of the supposed "victim" over and over.

If you want to retain the rights you hold dear, you must grant the same rights to those you may not agree with.

Something important to consider, and it may have already been stated, is that given how hard it is today to raise a standard family of four (mom, dad +2 kids) do you think this "sect" would have continued to flourish as they did without additional "income" (yes, welfare) from the government?  I think it is a more important point to ponder because had this way of life (polygamy) been sustainable and more beneficial than the more "mainstream" union of a single man to a single woman, wouldn't this practice of "marriage" have won out in the long run?  Is this a clear example of "free-market" theory applied to marriage?  (ok, that's for a LOL)

Though I am compelled to protect their rights as individuals to "pursue" their brand of happiness and live as they choose, I find considerable hypocrisy in their claims of wanting to be left alone.  In the end, however, it is just yet another example of why welfare is such a bad thing.  Not to say it is bad because I disagree so much with this particular sect, but rather because I should not be forced to help sustain the lifestyles of individuals with whom I completely disagree.  No one should be forced to do that.  Wasn't it the purpose of our constitution to guarantee this?

----------


## Dr.3D

What are they going to do next, arrest unmarried men who have multiple girl friends who have babies by them?   What is better, a guy who knocks up a bunch of women and just walks away, or a guy who marries a bunch of women and has babies with them and then tries to be a member of the family?

----------


## tropicangela

This whole thing deeply disturbs me and reminds me of Nazi Germany.

----------


## NMCB3

The cold reality is that 90% of Americans agree with the governments story and actions in this case. There is virtually no freedom in "the freest country in the world." Amerika is a lost cause.

----------


## invisible

...this scares the $#@! out of me.  I do not have children yet, and that is a specific goal of mine.  In addition, there is a woman with children who may join my relationship in the near future, and there have has been a woman with children in my household in the past.  CPS is an agency that is rightly feared, not only by those in poly relationships, but by anyone who has children.  These people have way too much power, much of it extra-Constitutional.  Anyone can say anything, true or not, and CPS can enter your home and take your children with no probable cause or oversight whatsoever.  They can use anything from your religion to a sinkfull of dirty dishes as an excuse for kidnapping your children and charging you with a crime.  I would be very interested to hear from those who have successfully fought off the CPS, especially those who homeschool or are in poly families / nontraditional relationships....is there any defense against these thugs that will hold up in court?  Anything that can be done to keep them out of your home and life in the first place?  As for those interested in the AOC issue (and the related issue of "sex offense" laws), I offer the following links:

http://www.moraloutrage.net/

http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/table_marriage

http://www.coolnurse.com/marriage_laws.htm

http://cursor.eprci.com/

Note that NH and MA have the lowest ages for marriage with parental consent.  Most states have raised this age within the last 15 years, along with the age at which one could withdraw from school.  Gatto makes an excellent argument that our government is increasingly extending the adolescence of our population.  Remember that George Washington was 20 years old when he led the crossing of the Delaware - nowadays he wouldn't even be able to legally drink a beer.  Biologically speaking, what has changed in the last 100 years?  Why are we no longer considered consenting adults at age 13 or 14, as we used to be?  Why is our country so out of step with the rest of the world on this issue?  This is not an issue of "protecting children" (which is the job of the parents, not the government), it is an issue of freedom that we once had that is now lost.

----------


## FreeTraveler

> Laws are laws. It isn't anti-libertarian to protect children. And at least they didn't go in guns a-blazing as in Waco.
> 
> Wish I could attribute the quote, but I don't know who first said it: Civilization's purpose is to protect preagnant women and children. Everything else is just window dressing (or words to that effect).


Robert Anson Heinlein - Time Enough for Love



> *All societies are based on rules to protect pregnant women and young children. All else is surplusage, excrescence, adornment, luxury, or folly, which can — and must — be dumped in emergency to preserve this prime function.* As racial survival is the only universal morality, no other basic is possible. Attempts to formulate a "perfect society" on any foundation other than "Women and children first!" is not only witless, it is automatically genocidal. Nevertheless, starry-eyed idealists (all of them male) have tried endlessly — and no doubt will keep on trying.


On edit: I forgot I'd already addressed this at post 36. If you haven't read any Heinlein, RUN to the library, get everything they have, from his early juvenile books to his last, very adult-themed work. RAH is first on my very short list of people that I admire.

----------


## constituent

that quote is very interesting.

jayliewow, on it again.  great post!

----------


## UtahApocalypse

The ALCU has finally issued a statement on the situation in Texas....

Salt Lake Tribune: http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9182798
ACLU Statement: http://www.aclu.org/religion/gen/35123res20080502.html

----------


## UtahApocalypse

It continues to get worse:


http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9238520


Read all the letters in the article. You will be ready to take up arms to free these people

----------


## hiimallen

I thank all of you excellent Ron Paul supporters for not falling for the "Sandra" garbage, I only wish a Texas sheriff and judge had done the same. All I can say is if this was a few years ago, and I lived in Texas, I wouldn't know where my mother was right now. I have been a big Ron Paul supporter, donated all I could in November and December and I wrote several articles at theconservativevoice.com in support of him. 

I almost had hope for America. 

I have a blog called fldsview.blogspot.com to help people understand our goofy religion. 

O God help us!

----------


## constituent

> I thank all of you excellent Ron Paul supporters for not falling for the "Sandra" garbage, I only wish a Texas sheriff and judge had done the same. All I can say is if this was a few years ago, and I lived in Texas, I wouldn't know where my mother was right now. I have been a big Ron Paul supporter, donated all I could in November and December and I wrote several articles at theconservativevoice.com in support of him. 
> 
> I almost had hope for America. 
> 
> I have a blog called fldsview.blogspot.com to help people understand our goofy religion. 
> 
> O God help us!


interesting. 


did you read the piece at lewrockwell.com talking about the welfare scam the flds had running?

just curious as to what your thoughts are on that.

----------


## asgardshill

> If you haven't read any Heinlein, RUN to the library, get everything they have, from his early juvenile books to his last, very adult-themed work. RAH is first on my very short list of people that I admire.


_A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects._

*From the notebooks of Lazarus Long (1966-4272)*

I've got everything except 'plan an invasion' and 'die gallantly' checked off already.  God help me if I ever need to execute that last item

----------


## pcosmar

> interesting. 
> 
> 
> did you read the piece at lewrockwell.com talking about the welfare scam the flds had running?
> 
> just curious as to what your thoughts are on that.


I have not read the Lewrockwell piece that you refer to. I have heard this allegation. I have not seen any wide spread prosecutions or convictions for welfare fraud. From what I know and have seen most Mormons are financially responsible, and their church teaches that. The folks in Texas had backing from very wealthy business men, and there has been NO evidence of welfare fraud.
If you don't like welfare fraud END WELFARE. Prosecute Individuals that abuse the system.
Don't use it as an excuse to attack a group of people for their religious beliefs.

----------


## hiimallen

Not only did I read it, I had an email conversation with Rick Fisk about his article. My two points were:

 "It is true that more boys leave than girls, but many girls also leave the FLDS and not one was ever expelled for the rediculous reason you mentioned as obvious."
"You did state that the states actions are bogus, but you also perpetuated the myth that the FLDS would cease to exist without the state. "

I have a question for you. Does the fact that I came on this blog help my cause or hurt it in your eyes? Sometimes I wonder if defending my cooky beliefs creates a negative backlash rather than a positive one. Does it?

----------


## pcosmar

> Not only did I read it, I had an email conversation with Rick Fisk about his article. My two points were:
> 
>  "It is true that more boys leave than girls, but many girls also leave the FLDS and not one was ever expelled for the rediculous reason you mentioned as obvious."
> "You did state that the states actions are bogus, but you also perpetuated the myth that the FLDS would cease to exist without the state. "
> 
> I have a question for you. Does the fact that I came on this blog help my cause or hurt it in your eyes? Sometimes I wonder if defending my cooky beliefs creates a negative backlash rather than a positive one. Does it?


There are many here that support Liberty. There are some that do not and promote a 
"party line", or an "accepted" belief system.
The Civil Liberties sub-forum is just the place for these discussions.

----------


## invisible

> Does the fact that I came on this blog help my cause or hurt it in your eyes? Sometimes I wonder if defending my cooky beliefs creates a negative backlash rather than a positive one. Does it?


What exactly is your cause?  I think it's great that someone of the FLDS religion has taken the time and trouble to "defend" and explain their views!  I'm surprised that you happen to be the only one.  While I am not of the FLDS religion, I am poly, and actually registered on this forum because no one else seemed to be contributing to this discussion from the perspective of being in a poly relationship (also see the "privatizing marriage" thread in the GC section of this forum).  I think that more poly people speaking out and explaining why their beliefs are not bad can only be a good thing....and that goes for anyone who has beliefs or a lifestyle that is "out of the mainstream" in any sort of way.  The general public at large learning to understand different perspectives and see that they are not intrinsically bad is unfortunately the necessary first step in getting the government out of our relationships and how we choose to define them.  I look forward to hearing you speak more about your beliefs, and will certainly read your offered web blog, even though I do not find your religion "goofy" at all.

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## UtahApocalypse

> I have not read the Lewrockwell piece that you refer to. I have heard this allegation. I have not seen any wide spread prosecutions or convictions for welfare fraud. From what I know and have seen most Mormons are financially responsible, and their church teaches that. The folks in Texas had backing from very wealthy business men, and there has been NO evidence of welfare fraud.
> If you don't like welfare fraud END WELFARE. Prosecute Individuals that abuse the system.
> Don't use it as an excuse to attack a group of people for their religious beliefs.


Just to clarify the FLDS Church is not the LDS Church and thus not Mormons. I hate that so many people have not made that distinction. 

Anyways.... things are still a total mess in Texas and not looking to get better. I can't believe NO one has stood up for the FLDS people who are on the verge of experiencing what the jews did in Germany. They are being forced to work, move, and change their lifestyles and denounce their religion to get the kids back. Why is it the supposed Freedom loving Texans have not brought forth large demonstrations, complaints, and the such? What I am seeing is that most you cowards are ok with whats going on simply because they are members of a quirky church. What happens when you become the quirky one??

As to the accusations of 'Lew Rockwell' of the FLDS scamming the welfare system GO TOP HELL $#@!.  First off where is the evidence or charges?? NONE just like the rest of this mess. Secondly, I know dozens of other people who 'Scam' welfare because they have 5-7 kids from not closing their legs. At least the FLDS are raising the kids, and have the parents ALL participating in that. Lastly, Good for the FLDS for getting some free money from the government, its only pennies on the dollar compared to what Texas will be paying them FOREVER after the lawsuits fly on this.

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## constituent

> Not only did I read it, I had an email conversation with Rick Fisk about his article. My two points were:
> 
>  "It is true that more boys leave than girls, but many girls also leave the FLDS and not one was ever expelled for the rediculous reason you mentioned as obvious."
> "You did state that the states actions are bogus, but you also perpetuated the myth that the FLDS would cease to exist without the state. "
> 
> I have a question for you. Does the fact that I came on this blog help my cause or hurt it in your eyes? Sometimes I wonder if defending my cooky beliefs creates a negative backlash rather than a positive one. Does it?


i think sharing your views can only help your cause.  "cooky beliefs?"  we've all got those.

pcosmar, i believe fisk's allegations were directed at this specific sect.

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## constituent

> Just to clarify the FLDS Church is not the LDS Church and thus not Mormons. 1)  *I hate that so many people have not made that distinction.* 
> 
> Anyways.... things are still a total mess in Texas and not looking to get better. I can't believe NO one has stood up for the FLDS people who are on the verge of experiencing what the jews did in Germany. They are being forced to work, move, and change their lifestyles and denounce their religion to get the kids back.2)  * Why is it the supposed Freedom loving Texans have not brought forth large demonstrations*, complaints, and the such? What I am seeing is that 3)  *most you cowards are ok with whats going on simply because they are members of a quirky church. What happens when you become the quirky one??*
> 
> As to the accusations of 'Lew Rockwell' of the FLDS scamming the welfare system 4)  *GO TOP HELL $#@!.*  First off where is the evidence or charges?? NONE just like the rest of this mess. Secondly, I know dozens of other people who 'Scam' welfare because they have 5-7 kids from not closing their legs. At least the FLDS are raising the kids, and have the parents ALL participating in that. Lastly, 5)  *Good for the FLDS for getting some free money from the government*, its only pennies on the dollar compared to what Texas will be paying them FOREVER after the lawsuits fly on this.



blah blah blah, typical melodramatic, over the top, emotional b.s. from utahapocalypse.

now for the line by line.

1)  Exactly which people are those?

2)  Out with the insults b/c we aren't gung-ho, guns in the street over your pet cause?

Once again Utah, where is your outrage over all the folks in prison over weapons and/or "drugs" charges?  Why are you not out demonstrating for them?

Self-righteous hypocrite.

3)  "Most of you cowards"  who tf are you even talking to here?  i imagine you sitting at your computer shouting this at your keys (as if they could talk back to defend themselves)

4)  Kill yourself (in real life), so I can see you there and we've got a deal... $#@!!

5)  I think number five says more about your character than I could.

How dare I posses an opinion differing from your own?  the audacity.

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## pdavis

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...TAM&SECTION=US

Texas seizure of polygamist-sect kids thrown out

By MICHELLE ROBERTS
Associated Press Writer

 SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) -- A Texas appeals court said Thursday that the state had no right to take more than 400 children from a polygamist sect's ranch, a ruling that could unravel one of the biggest child-custody cases in U.S. history.

The Third Court of Appeals in Austin ruled that the state offered "legally and factually insufficient" grounds for the "extreme" measure of removing all children from the ranch, from babies to teenagers.

The state never provided evidence that the children were in any immediate danger, the only grounds in Texas law for taking children from their parents without court approval, the appeals court said.

It also failed to show evidence that more than five of the teenage girls were being sexually abused, and never alleged any sexual or physical abuse against the other children, the court said.

It was not immediately clear whether the children scattered across foster facilities statewide might soon be reunited with parents. The ruling gave Texas District Judge Barbara Walther 10 days to vacate her custody order, and the state could appeal.

FLDS spokesman Rod Parker said sect members feel validated, having argued from the beginning that they were being persecuted for their beliefs.

"They're very thrilled. They're looking forward to seeing the children returned," he said.

The appellate decision technically applies only to 38 of the roughly 200 parents who challenged the seizure. But their lawyer, Julie Balovich of Texas RioGrande Legal Aid, said she expected attorneys for all the other parents to seek to join the ruling.

"It's a great day for Texas justice. This was the right decision," said Balovich, who was joined by several smiling mothers who nonetheless declined to comment at a news conference outside the courthouse here.

Every child at the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado was taken into state custody more than six weeks ago, after Child Protective Services officials argued that members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints pushed underage girls into marriage and sex and groomed boys to become adult perpetrators. Only a few dozen of the roughly 440 children seized are teenage girls; half were under 5.

The appeals court said the state was wrong to consider the entire ranch as an individual household and that the state couldn't take all the children from a community on the notion that some parents in the community might be abusers.

"The existence of the FLDS belief system as described by the department's witnesses, by itself, does not put children of FLDS parents in physical danger," the court said in its ruling.

The court said that although five girls had become pregnant at age 15 or 16, the state gave no evidence about the circumstances of the pregnancies. It noted that minors as young as 16 can wed in Texas with parental consent, and even younger children can marry if a court approves it.

Balovich said the appeals court "has stood up for the legal rights of these families and given these mothers hope that their families will be brought back together."

CPS spokesman Patrick Crimmins said department attorneys had just received the ruling and would make any decision about an appeal later.

"We are trying to assess the impact that this may have on our case," he said.

Even before Thursday's ruling, the state's allegations of teenage girls being pushed into sex appeared to be deflating.

Of the 31 sect members CPS once said were underage mothers, 15 have been reclassified as adults - one was 27 years old - and an attorney for a 14-year-old girl said in court that she had no children and was not pregnant, as officials previously asserted.

Five judges in San Angelo, about 40 miles north of Eldorado, have been hearing CPS's plans for the parents seeking to regain custody. Those hearings, which began Monday, were suspended after the appellate ruling Thursday.

The custody case has been chaotic from the beginning. The hearing in which Walther ruled that the children should all enter state custody ran two days.

Hundreds of lawyers crammed into a courtroom and nearby auditorium, queuing up to voice objections or ask questions on behalf of the mothers who were there in their trademark prairie dresses and braided hair.

CPS has struggled with even the identities of the children for weeks and scattered them across foster facilities all over the sprawling state, with some siblings separated by as much as 600 miles.

The sect children were removed en masse during a raid that began April 3 after someone called a domestic abuse hot line claiming to be a pregnant abused teenage wife. The girl has not been found and authorities are investigating whether the calls were a hoax.

The FLDS, which teaches that polygamy brings glorification in heaven, is a breakaway of the Mormon church, which renounced polygamy more than a century ago. Members contend they are being persecuted by state officials for their religious beliefs.

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## hiimallen

Listen to this Excellent radio interview:

http://www.theedgeam.com/political/main.htm

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## Fields

> Listen to this Excellent radio interview:
> 
> http://www.theedgeam.com/political/main.htm


Thanks for the link.

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## StateofTrance

What about liberty for those teenaged girls probably held against their will by those religious terrorist pedophiles? Taking away liberty of the innocents by spewing religious vomit is $#@!ing low class. 

There is a line. A limit. I actually expected an USAF F-16 to come and drop cluster bombs on that "church".

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## pcosmar

> What about liberty for those teenaged girls probably held against their will by those religious terrorist pedophiles? Taking away liberty of the innocents by spewing religious vomit is $#@!ing low class. 
> 
> There is a line. A limit. I actually expected an USAF F-16 to come and drop cluster bombs on that "church".


*I hope you are joking*, But if not,
Please do Not flaunt your ignorance.
There is NO evidence of abuse. There is NO evidence of anyone held against their will.

There IS evidence of a prank phone call and a FALSE report.

YOUR post glorifying Ignorance and LIES, is low class.
Please do some research.

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## StateofTrance

I don't need proofs.

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## Dr.3D

> What about liberty for those teenaged girls probably held against their will by those religious terrorist pedophiles? Taking away liberty of the innocents by spewing religious vomit is $#@!ing low class. 
> 
> There is a line. A limit. I actually expected an USAF F-16 to come and drop cluster bombs on that "church".


Oh my, look at all the love!    
I take it, everybody is guilty until proven innocent in your world.
(You sound like some kind of demented prosecuting attorney.  Nancy Grace perhaps?  )

There may be a few who are doing things that are not right, but to condemn the entire group because of them is insane.   That is much like looking at the United States from abroad and saying, 'Those people are all murders!', after reading an article in the paper about people getting shot buy some lone gun man.

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## UtahApocalypse

> I don't need proofs.


So someone that has never actually set foot in the YFZ Ranch kissing a young bride some 15 years ago makes the entire religion guilty?? You have no idea what Ron Paul and this campaign stands for apparently.

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## pcosmar

> So someone that has never actually set foot in the YFZ Ranch kissing a young bride some 15 years ago makes the entire religion guilty?? You have no idea what Ron Paul and this campaign stands for apparently.


I was wondering what that was supposed to be proof of.
It does not seem to show any proof of age, though he looks like a rather young man.
The girls seems to be an active participant, and does not look like she is being "forced".
It also does not show her age.
Little can be proved from this photo.

What is the point again?

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## Anti Federalist

Pete was right.

http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/flds-raid/

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