# Lifestyles & Discussion > Peace Through Religion >  Germanic Pagans - split thread

## Sola_Fide

Why?

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## TaftFan

> Why?


Bait swallowed.

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## fr33

> There are many white people who worship their ancestors, but why do it?  They are gods who can't save.


Studying history is not worship.

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## Sola_Fide

> Studying history is not worship.


Sure.  I study it too. But like Paul said in the book of Phillipians,  I regard all things (including the worship of my ancestors) as complete garbage and feces compared to the surpassing worth of knowing the righteousness that comes from Christ.  Once you know this, everything else becomes offensive to yiu, and you have a God-given desire to fight against anything that presents itself against the mind of Christ.   I hope you know this one day my friend.

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## osan

> Sure.  I study it too. But like Paul said in the book of Phillipians,  I regard all things (including the worship of my ancestors) as complete garbage and feces compared to the surpassing worth of knowing the righteousness that comes from Christ.  Once you know this, everything else becomes offensive to yiu, and you have a God-given desire to fight against anything that presents itself against the mind of Christ.   I hope you know this one day my friend.


Damnable they are!  My eyes, that is.

I would add that once again a thread has been jacked by someone who would not keep himself behind the check of basic courtesy to others.  A question was asked; a simple, valid question, and true to perfect predictability, religious irrelevancy had to be introduced.  The whole world does not revolve around your belief system, much as I am sure that rages you.  You would not simply allow the question to pass without responding in the typically self-absorbed manner those of your ilk are wont to do.  You could not respond with either silence or a simple "no".  Once again you had to alert the world to the "fact" that you know the ultimate truth and that those not of your mind are minor and "less-than", heaping insult upon insult by rubbing our noses in the fact of how _offended_ you are by the beliefs of others.

No offense intended, but you are the worst brand of "Christian" that exists, to my damnable eyes, parading your faith about upon your sleeve in the very flavor of pride against which your own book so sternly warns.  Your self-professed humilities are naught but window dressings that hide the endless hubris of the self-centered, nay, _narcissistic_ man who simply cannot stand not to draw attention to himself, thinking himself clever in his efforts to make his noises look incidental to the ostensible purpose of "glorifying God", when in reality all you do is failingly and transparently attempt to glorify yourself.  Is there any line other than perhaps "you ought to praise the magnificence of my most sacred and sizable penis" more childishly, baldly, and hopelessly hubris-laden and condescending than "I hope you know this one day my friend"?  It is so thick, one could not cut it with a chainsaw.

Once again you will have to forgive me for uttering another cold truth: "Christians" such as yourself, and I am tempted to declare such not true Christians at all, are the reason the world has turned its face from the good teachings attributed to Jesus the Christ.  You have taken the sound words of a world view and turned them into a political contest in which countless tens of millions of people have been butchered in the most unimaginably cruel and agonizing ways.  It is men such as yourself, well intentioned as you _may_ be, who have spread nothing better than death, disease, destruction, poverty, and endless misery to the four corners of the world, all the while disguising it in the false language of universal love, the reality being closer to the language of self-love run morbidly masturbatory.

So endless is your blind self-obsession that you refuse others the most basic courtesy of holding your yap when what you have to say contributes nothing of relevance to a discussion.  "Me me me.... my faith... me me me me me... my faith.... me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me... my faith."  In the name of He whom you claim as your savior, give it a $#@!ing rest, shut your damned mouth, and learn to listen... or at least how not to inject your inane bull$#@! where it has no place.  Just another know-it-all "Christian" about whom they believe the universe revolves.  Please sir, you embarrass yourself too much now.

~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~

I will now beg the forgiveness of the OP for apparently having done that for which I scold another.  In atonement, I will answer the original question: I am not sufficiently familiar with such practices to be able to tell you to what degree I so engage myself, however coincidentally.  My religion has no name and words barely describe it.  Perhaps it is not religion at all?  Suffice to say that I see and feel the Divine in everything, even obnoxiously self-centered people who don't know how to shut up about themselves such that others can get a word in edgewise.

Perhaps you could explain something of your world view and the relevant habits and, if any, ceremonies and symbols attached thereto?  It is always interesting to learn the ways in which others see the world around them, as well as their places in it.  It would help define your terms such as "Paganism".

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## Sola_Fide

> Damnable they are!  My eyes, that is.
> 
> I would add that once again a thread has been jacked by someone who would not keep himself behind the check of basic courtesy to others.  A question was asked; a simple, valid question, and true to perfect predictability, religious irrelevancy had to be introduced.  The whole world does not revolve around your belief system, much as I am sure that rages you.  You would not simply allow the question to pass without responding in the typically self-absorbed manner those of your ilk are wont to do.  You could not respond with either silence or a simple "no".  Once again you had to alert the world to the "fact" that you know the ultimate truth and that those not of your mind are minor and "less-than", heaping insult upon insult by rubbing our noses in the fact of how _offended_ you are by the beliefs of others.
> 
> No offense intended, but you are the worst brand of "Christian" that exists, to my damnable eyes, parading your faith about upon your sleeve in the very flavor of pride against which your own book so sternly warns.  Your self-professed humilities are naught but window dressings that hide the endless hubris of the self-centered, nay, _narcissistic_ man who simply cannot stand not to draw attention to himself, thinking himself clever in his efforts to make his noises look incidental to the ostensible purpose of "glorifying God", when in reality all you do is failingly and transparently attempt to glorify yourself.  Is there any line other than perhaps "you ought to praise the magnificence of my most sacred and sizable penis" more childishly, baldly, and hopelessly hubris-laden and condescending than "I hope you know this one day my friend"?  It is so thick, one could not cut it with a chainsaw.
> 
> Once again you will have to forgive me for uttering another cold truth: "Christians" such as yourself, and I am tempted to declare such not true Christians at all, are the reason the world has turned its face from the good teachings attributed to Jesus the Christ.  You have taken the sound words of a world view and turned them into a political contest in which countless tens of millions of people have been butchered in the most unimaginably cruel and agonizing ways.  It is men such as yourself, well intentioned as you _may_ be, who have spread nothing better than death, disease, destruction, poverty, and endless misery to the four corners of the world, all the while disguising it in the false language of universal love, the reality being closer to the language of self-love run morbidly masturbatory.
> 
> So endless is your blind self-obsession that you refuse others the most basic courtesy of holding your yap when what you have to say contributes nothing of relevance to a discussion.  "Me me me.... my faith... me me me me me... my faith.... me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me... my faith."  In the name of He whom you claim as your savior, give it a $#@!ing rest, shut your damned mouth, and learn to listen... or at least how not to inject your inane bull$#@! where it has no place.  Just another know-it-all "Christian" about whom they believe the universe revolves.  Please sir, you embarrass yourself too much now.
> ...


What if I was to tell you "you should keep your views of liberty to yourself, because the world does not revolve around your view of liberty.   Liberty is your path and that's fine but statism and tyranny is also right and equally viable viewpoint"?

You would have a problem with me telling you that you should be relativistic wouldn't you?  Now you know the absurdity of your response to me.

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## Sola_Fide

> Much respect to anyone who attempts to have a conversation in this subforum on such subject matter. JohnGalt how long have you been following this path and what drew you to it?


Peace on your path?  lol

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## Sola_Fide

> Yep.


Of course, but then we have to talk about what "peace" really is, and if you can have peace without the Prince of Peace.

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## moostraks

> Of course, but then we have to talk about what "peace" really is, and if you can have peace without the Prince of Peace.


Know them by their fruits...

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## Sola_Fide

> Know them by their fruits...


Doctrine is fruit too.  Doctrine is the primary fruit.

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## moostraks

> Doctrine is fruit too.  Doctrine is the primary fruit.


Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, having a French book does not mean I speak French, our doctrines just vocalize values which are evidenced by our fruits:

Galatians 5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Posted verses for clarity so you nor another plays word games with my position.

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## Sola_Fide

> Idolatry sticks out.


Thank you.

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## Sola_Fide

> For this branch of paganism or paganism in general? My experience has been that pagans were no more idolatrous than those who say they are Christian.


Have you considered that you should base truth on your "experiences", but rather on the Word of God?

Christians are not idolatrous.  They worship the one true God.   Pagans are idolatrous.  They worship many false gods.

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## Jamesiv1

> Doctrine is fruit too.  Doctrine is the primary fruit.


Practice what you preach.
Watch his feet, not his mouth.
Actions speak louder than words.
A picture is worth a thousand words.

^^Wisdom

There are loads of good talkers. Much more scarce are good walkers.

“I will guard my ways, that I may not sin with my tongue; I will guard my mouth with a muzzle, so long as the wicked are in my presence.”  -Psalm 39:1 ESV

"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so practice and observe whatever they tell you—but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice."  -Matthew 23:1-39 ESV

"They make their tongues as sharp as a serpent's; the poison of vipers is on their lips."  -Psalm 140:3 NIV

"White man speaks with forked tongue."  -you know who

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## bubbleboy

SF why don't you just threaten him or her with hell fire.  Burn baby burn forever and ever, like a broke record. SF selling fire insurance.  Who is buying some?

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## Sola_Fide

> Reread what I wrote and notice the very specific nature of the wording I utilized. No, those who say they are Christian are no more insulated from the sin of idolatry. Maybe you should look into what the word idolatry means, from a definition stand point, so we could have some mutual understanding of the word itself? Many who say they are Christian also worship many false gods. It seems to closely coincide with idolatry that way.
> 
> Truth is...it helps to have experiences to further understanding when trying to comprehend Truth. Ymmv, but if I am relating something through which my opinion is based upon my experiences I don't see why it is ridiculous to state such because it is only saying that according to my experiences for which I am inclined to believe as I do now on a subject. Very few grasp the complexity of any subject matter without a certain level of experience from which to utilize for proper discernment, jus' sayin'.


If Christians are idolatrous,  and the Bible says idolaters will not inherit the kingdom of heaven, who will be saved?

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## Sola_Fide

> SF why don't you just threaten him or her with hell fire.  Burn baby burn forever and ever, like a broke record. SF selling fire insurance.  Who is buying some?


I don't really have to.  Romans 1 says that all men already know that their judgment is coming.

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## moostraks

> If Christians are idolatrous,  and the Bible says idolaters will not inherit the kingdom of heaven, who will be saved?


 you still aren't reading very carefully, are you?

~~~peace on your path

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## fr33

> Sure.  I study it too. But like Paul said in the book of Phillipians,  I regard all things (including the worship of my ancestors) as complete garbage and feces compared to the surpassing worth of knowing the righteousness that comes from Christ.  Once you know this, everything else becomes offensive to yiu, and you have a God-given desire to fight against anything that presents itself against the mind of Christ.   I hope you know this one day my friend.


No thanks. I already know about how the Hebrew myths played a role in how I got here. I'm more interested in things I haven't been taught yet.

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> ...



Soda,  Thanks for the pictures you include in your neg reps of me.  Can you interpret this last one you just sent?


https://elysianhunter.files.wordpres...5/dog-$#@!.jpg

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## Sola_Fide

Here is the equivalent thread on Stormfront.org if anyone is curious:

https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t673559/

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## Sola_Fide

> *Well, it's interesting that to sell Christianity, many of these pagan festivals were just absorbed or adopted* rather then try to stop them.  Things like Easter or Yuletide.  
> 
> So what if what we really see today is Paganism surviving in the Christian church?  If that is true, than how different is it to follow Yahweh or Wotan(Odin)?  Could one just say these are different names for the same being?


No, that was in order to sell Roman Catholicism.  Roman Catholicism is not Christianity.

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## VIDEODROME

> No, that was in order to sell Roman Catholicism.  Roman Catholicism is not Christianity.


My bad.  

(did not intend to kick off this tangent argument again)

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## moostraks

> Here is the equivalent thread on Stormfront.org if anyone is curious:
> 
> https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t673559/





> Hard to tell.* The important thing to remember is that Christianity is our native religion now.* All the important parts of it were created either by theologians from the Roman Empire, like Augustine or later German thought if you don't know it have a look at The Germanization of Early Medieval Christianity. A Sociohistorical Approach to Religious Transformation, by James C. Russell. Of course the "mainstream" church has long been colonised by the liberal elite hence its appalling stance on virtually everything - a good example is the UK where the Anglican Church is dying, but I'm not sure that "paganism" is the solution


Along with several which said some form of:


> I don't believe White Nationalism should be based upon one religion or belief. Our ancestry contains many belief systems which have changed over time, we should respect all of those.



What is your point from that short, closed thread from 2010/11 from there?

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## Sola_Fide

> I hear you loud and clear. Felt the same way about what I saw in the churches and was a solitary green witch for a few years. I never could commit to a specific cultural adaptation so that the god(dess) energy would have a name. It was liberating to not constantly have someone breathing down my neck telling me how I was doing spirituality all wrong. How if I just prayed harder then maybe I would be forgiven enough for not speaking or walking as those ridiculing me did and then I could be just like them, forgiven and washed in the blood. Funny thing is the Christians I have known were much more barbaric in their philosophy than those of the pagan community I knew.
> 
> I have always had a special place in my heart for the crone. The old cottage witch healer ostracized from the village surrounding by nature and the creatures that inhabit it with a kindred soul of her familiar to keep her company. The amusing knowledge of the fact that it was these outcasts many turned to for her wisdom of healing herbs when someone was ill or hurt. 
> 
> Excellent list of characteristics to strive towards embodying. I think we are so isolated from our cultural roots in society today that many find themselves needing to walk backwards in time before they comprehend their own place in life, to live life deeper, close to those whose hearts beat the same blood, to walk daily and not use our perceptions of faith as a meter stick to judge others but to inspire ourselves instead.
> 
> So are you a solitary?


Wow...

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## Sola_Fide

> Galatians 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
> 
> 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh [g]sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you [h]please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: [i]immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry,* sorcery,* enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, [j]factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who [k]belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
> 
> 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also [l]walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
> 
> Know them by their fruits



Why do post that verse as if it doesn't condemn you?

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## moostraks

> Why do post that verse as if it doesn't condemn you?


You don't know squat about my prior practices nor do you bother knowing or acknowledging my current practices, anymore than someone else who is making wild accusations against pagans without a second thought towards challenging preconceived notions of what they are ridiculing.

sorcery
the art, practices, or spells of a person who is supposed to exercise supernatural powers through the aid of evil spirits; black magic; witchery. — sorcerer, n. — sorcerous, adj.

Answered your question. You gonna answer wth you were proving with the previous link considering what the discussion included?

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## Sola_Fide

> You don't know squat about my prior practices nor do you bother knowing or acknowledging my current practices, anymore than someone else who is making wild accusations against pagans without a second thought towards challenging preconceived notions of what they are ridiculing.
> 
> sorcery
> the art, practices, or spells of a person who is supposed to exercise supernatural powers through the aid of evil spirits; black magic; witchery. — sorcerer, n. — sorcerous, adj.
> 
> Answered your question. You gonna answer wth you were proving with the previous link considering what the discussion included?


Do pagans of any kind worship the Trinity alone and trust in Jesus Christ alone for their salvation from God's wrath against sin?

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> Do pagans of any kind worship the Trinity alone and trust in Jesus Christ alone for their salvation from God's wrath against sin?



Some do.

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> Roman Catholicism is not Christianity.



What you believe is not Christianity.

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> Why do post that verse as if it doesn't condemn you?



Read it again.  You can't just read biblical passages and regurgitate them without an understanding of what the say, let alone what they mean.

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

Okay, I got a plus rep on the German gals, so let's broaden that out beyond the World Cup.


I, for one, have always been a fan of Miss Universe.  Good looking women always bridge the cultural gaps.








I don't even like beer, but did have some really good German beer once.  








Forget that restaurant with the crappy chicken and orange hot pants.  This is Hooters!

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## Rothbardian Girl

While we're at it, this thread needs more German men:

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  ^^


That second guy needs to wash his hair.  What is it with this greasy hair look nowadays?

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

And some famous German women.


I don't care what you say.  I was in love with Steffi and her nose.








Marlene Dietrich with a dangling cigarette.  This broad kicks ass!







Ursula Andress.  Okay, not German, but great in The Blue Max.  And James Bond, of course.

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

Intermission is over.  Please resume normal broadcasting of this thread.

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## moostraks

> Do pagans of any kind worship the Trinity alone and trust in Jesus Christ alone for their salvation from God's wrath against sin?


So you are not going to answer the question I asked you prior to the witch hunt you are engaging in for deflection?

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## Sola_Fide

> Are you kidding me? You have to just intentionally be trolling me now. I don't give a single $#@! if you agree with me or not, I don't care if your a Christian or a Buddhist or a Jew or none of the above. I'll never ask anyone to agree with me in religious matters. I don't even care if you comment on the thread, I can't stop you nor do I wish to you. 
> 
> What does piss me off though is when you come in compare my religious beliefs to fecal matter and claim I worship demons and that I need you or your Christ to "save" me. Come in and disagree with my religious beliefs all you like I don't really care but when you poke a bear expect it to roar. At no point were you respectful towards me or anyone who disagreed with you. 
> 
> You persist in insulting my religion and then you act all surprised and butthurt and say "whoa bro chill out this is a predominantly Christian board." No YOU chill out and YOU start treating my religion with a modicum of respect in the threat *I* created or GTFO and start a "I think all Pagans worship demons and are going to hell" thread where you can say whatever you want. I created this thread to see if there were any other pagans on here and to start a discussion about indigenous Northern European folkways, of course I knew there would be a lot of Christians and I didn't expect all positivity but I at least expected the dissent to be respectful and constructive. I have no problem with people hating my religion as I am used to it, after all your religion hated mine so much that they massacred them damn near out of existence and then forced conversions via the sword. I know you think I'm going to hell and I worship false idols and all that jazz, I was a Christian once and thought that same way. 
> 
> Words don't bother me and you can say whatever you like but that is not the purpose of this thread. The purpose of this thread isn't to argue Christianity or have you and SF try and convert the heathens. If you want to do that start your own thread buddy. Don't hijack mine. I have asked you several times to not derail my thread and yet you persist in doing so and then take on this a**hole tone of "oh wow you guys are so touchy." I don't go into the multitude of Christian threads and start insulting Christian beliefs is it really so hard to do the same?


The Bible does say that all idol worship is fecal matter and garbage, so I will continue using that terminology when the Bible uses it.  And if you step back and look at the insanity of it, you are proposing a worship of dead people who cannot save.  How much more complete garbage is that!  

Jesus Christ actually saves!  God is going to call you to account on the last day, and if you don't have the righteousness of Christ, you will be judged for your sins.  Have trust in Christ ALONE, the One who can actually save and present you without spot or blemish before the throne of God.

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## Sola_Fide

> Maybe he's not Elect so he may as well do as he pleases.


But all men are commanded to repent and believe the gospel, elect or not.



> *Acts 17:30
> 
> In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.*

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## Jamesiv1

> But all men are commanded to repent and believe the gospel, elect or not.


hmmm.... that's an interesting question actually.

Why should someone repent and believe the gospel if they are not part of the elect?

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## Sola_Fide

> hmmm.... that's an interesting question actually.
> 
> Why should someone repent and believe the gospel if they are not part of the elect?


Because God commanded them to.  

But commands do not imply ability.  The command of God is not abrogated because of the inability of the subject to do the command.

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## Jamesiv1

> Because God commanded them to.


But they're already going to hell, right? So what's the downside of disobeying God's command?

Why not just rape and pillage to your heart's content?

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## Sola_Fide

> But they're already going to hell, right? So what's the downside of disobeying God's command?
> 
> Why not just rape and pillage to your heart's content?


Your question assumes that we know who the elect are.  No human does, only God does.  

But to your question, it's not that the reprobate can go ahead and do whatever they want because they are not saved, but that they _will_ do it because it is in their nature to do it.

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## Jamesiv1

> Your question assumes that we know who the elect are.  No human does, only God does.  
> 
> But to your question, it's not that the reprobate can go ahead and do whatever they want because they are not saved, but that they _will_ do it because it is in their nature to do it.


So no one knows who the elect are, but we know some are elect and the rest are not. So everybody just jump on board and cross your fingers?

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## Sola_Fide

> So no one knows who the elect are, but we know some are elect and the rest are not. So everybody just jump on board and cross your fingers?


The elect person knows that he is saved, but other than that, no, only God knows who His elect are.

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## Jamesiv1

> The elect person knows that he is saved, but other than that, no, only God knows who His elect are.


Wait. First, no human knows -  only God. Now your saying the elect human knows.

How does the elect human know he is elect?

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## Sola_Fide

> Wait. First, no human knows -  only God. Now your saying the elect human knows.
> 
> How does the elect human know he is elect?


Because the Holy Spirit gives him that knowledge.

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## Jamesiv1

> The elect person knows that he is saved


Is everyone who knows they are saved part of the elect?

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## jmdrake

> Because the Holy Spirit gives him that knowledge.


Okay.  I'm pretty sure in another thread when someone asked about the Holy Spirit directly speaking to people you said that God only speaks through scripture.  Glad the Holy Spirit revealed you that were wrong about that.

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## Sola_Fide

> Okay.  I'm pretty sure in another thread when someone asked about the Holy Spirit directly speaking to people you said that God only speaks through scripture.  Glad the Holy Spirit revealed you that were wrong about that.


The Holy Spirit causes a person to believe the promises of God. The promises of God are found in the Scriptures.

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## jmdrake

> The Holy Spirit causes a person to believe the promises of God. The promises of God are found in the Scriptures.


One of the promises of scripture is that God speaks through more than just scripture.

_Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork._

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## Jamesiv1

> The Holy Spirit causes a person to believe the promises of God. The promises of God are found in the Scriptures.


So if a person believes the promises of God, they know the Holy Spirit caused their belief, and thus they know they are part of the elect?

Similarly, if a person believes the Holy Spirit has given him the knowledge that he is saved, can he conclude he is part of the elect?

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## Sola_Fide

> Is everyone who knows they are saved part of the elect?


Yes.  But there are many ways that man deceives himself.  So the claim of knowledge of salvation is not the same as salvation.

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## Jamesiv1

> Yes.  But there are many ways that man deceives himself.


Such as?

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## Sola_Fide

> So if a person believes the promises of God, they know the Holy Spirit caused their belief, and thus they know they are part of the elect?
> 
> Similarly, if a person believes the Holy Spirit has given him the knowledge that he is saved, can he conclude he is part of the elect?


If a person believes the gospel of Jesus, that it is the atoning sacrifice of the second Person of the Trinity alone that is the reason he is saved, that it is nothing in himself which is the reason for his salvation, that the sinless righteousness of Jesus has been imputed on his behalf and that is the only reason he can stand before a holy God, if he believes this gospel, it is because God has chosen him to believe it.  Election.

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## Sola_Fide

> Such as?


You are deceiving yourself right now.

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## jmdrake

> You are deceiving yourself right now.


No no no.  God is deceiving him using a demon pretending to be the Holy Spirit.  Keep it straight!  Man does nothing.

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## Sola_Fide

> No no no.  God is deceiving him using a demon pretending to be the Holy Spirit.  Keep it straight!  Man does nothing.


Satan masquerades as an angel of light.



> *2 Corinthians 11:14 
> 
> And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.*


God uses demons to deceive men:



> *1 Kings 22:22–23  
> 
> And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has declared disaster for you.”*


God sends powerful delusions to men:



> *2 Thessalonians 2:11 
> 
> For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.*


God hides his knowledge from men, and reveals himself to others:



> *Matthew 11:25
> 
> At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 
> *



You try to make my position sound "ridiculous" with how you word it, but it is Biblical.  God is in control of ALL things, including the unbelief of man.

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## jmdrake

> You try to make my position sound "ridiculous" with how you word it, but it is Biblical.  God is in control of ALL things, including the unbelief of man.


You were running from your own position.  I put you back on the righteous path that makes God the one that temps men with evil and the author of sin.  You should thank me.

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## Sola_Fide

> So what if JohnGalt switching to Paganism is just a part of God's plan?


Every single thing is part of God's plan.

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> No no no.  God is deceiving him using a demon pretending to be the Holy Spirit.  Keep it straight!  Man does nothing.



See! I keep telling y'all that Soda Fudd fancies himself a mystic!

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## Sola_Fide

> You were running from your own position.  I put you back on the righteous path that makes God the one that temps men with evil and the author of sin.  You should thank me.


God doesn't tempt men, but He does control Satan who tempts men.  God does not sin, but He does use the evil of men and Satan for His own _eternally good_ purposes.

Jmdrake, Christianity is NOT dualistic.  There are not 2 competing forces in the universe, one good, one evil.  God is in control of every facet of existence and God ALONE is sovereign.

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## jmdrake

> Every single thing is part of God's plan.


Amen!  Hallelujah!  Welcome back to the path of righteousness brother Sola_Fide!  Glad you know you were wrong to say James was deceiving himself!  It's God that ultimately does the deceiving!  In fact, this conversation isn't really happening.  God is just talking to Himself.

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## Sola_Fide

> Amen!  Hallelujah!  Welcome back to the path of righteousness brother Sola_Fide!  Glad you know you were wrong to say James was deceiving himself!  It's God that ultimately does the deceiving!  In fact, this conversation isn't really happening.  God is just talking to Himself.


There is no contradiction in saying these three things:

1.  James is deceiving himself.

2.  Satan is deceiving James.

3.  God is deceiving James.


There is no contradiction because:

1.  Men are not puppets, they have wills and sin willfully.

2.  Satan is controlled by God and has an agency unto himself.

3.  God is ultimately in control of everything and everything works according to His eternal plan.

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## jmdrake

> There is no contradiction in saying these three things:
> 
> 1.  James is deceiving himself.
> 
> 2.  Satan is deceiving James.
> 
> 3.  God is deceiving James.
> 
> 
> ...


Ah.  So Satan is the puppet and has no will.  Once you said even God lacked freewill.  It will be fun to see what you come up with next.

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## Sola_Fide

> Ah.  So Satan is the puppet and has no will.  Once you said even God lacked freewill.  It will be fun to see what you come up with next.


Satan is NOT a puppet.  Satan is a being with a will.

Man is NOT a puppet.  Man is a being with a will.

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## Jamesiv1

> You are deceiving yourself right now.


No. Just trying to get my head around this election business. I had never heard much at all about Calvinism and election until landing in this forum.  I do appreciate your concise definition, though.

Seems not unlike some other Christian camps - i.e. if you believe just so, you're going to Heaven and those that don't are going to suffer the hellfire of eternal damnation.

To me, that's the unique and weird thing about today's Christianity.  Granted, I grew up in a nation predominantly Christian (USA) and haven't spent much time in cultures of other faiths. They may do the same for all I know.

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## moostraks

> God doesn't tempt men, but He does control Satan who tempts men.  God does not sin, but He does use the evil of men and Satan for His own _eternally good_ purposes.
> 
> Jmdrake, Christianity is NOT dualistic.  There are not 2 competing forces in the universe, one good, one evil.  God is in control of every facet of existence and God ALONE is sovereign.

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## Sola_Fide

> A recap of the conversation:  God is deceitful, evil, trollish, on the same side as satan and enjoys making people do evil so He can then send them to burn in hell for eternity for his glory.
> 
> What great news the "gospel" is!!!!!   Wonderful news, isn't it?   
> 
> 
> *sometimes the things i read on this forum are beyond surreal. i really, really, really hope that the nonbelievers here do not believe that everything they read in the religion forum is christianity, or else the damage being done here is unimaginable.  i'm sure satan is very pleased by some of the posts here.*


Satan is pleased with most of the posts in the religion forum, especially the ones that imply that God is not sovereign.  

Where on earth do you get this idea that there are "sides"?  Like, on one side there is the force of evil, and on the other side there is a force for good?

You don't get that idea from the Bible, you get it from Star Wars.  Christianity is NOT dualistic.  There is ONE sovereign will in this universe.

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## jmdrake

> Satan is pleased with most of the posts in the religion forum, especially the ones that imply that God is not sovereign.  
> 
> Where on earth do you get this idea that there are "sides"?  Like, on one side there is the force of evil, and on the other side there is a force for good?
> 
> You don't get that idea from the Bible, you get it from Star Wars.  Christianity is NOT dualistic.  There is ONE sovereign will in this universe.


Actually God is pleased.  You said God controls Satan remember.

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## lilymc

> Satan is pleased with most of the posts in the religion forum, especially the ones that imply that God is not sovereign.  
> 
> Where on earth do you get this idea that there are "sides"?  Like, on one side there is the force of evil, and on the other side there is a force for good?
> 
> You don't get that idea from the Bible, you get it from Star Wars.  Christianity is NOT dualistic.  There is ONE sovereign will in this universe.


LOL!  Good job ignoring the whole point while finding a way to argue even MORE.  You really, really, really love to argue.   

Someone could say the sky is blue, and i'm sure you'd find a way to argue that.

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## Sonny Tufts

> Satan is NOT a puppet.  Satan is a being with a will.
> 
> Man is NOT a puppet.  Man is a being with a will.


According to your theology, their "wills" are nothing more than manifestations of God's will, since God controls everything.  There is absolutely no functional difference between a puppet and any non-God being.

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## Sola_Fide

> Actually God is pleased.  You said God controls Satan remember.


Are you not sophisticated enough to understand the distinction I'm making?




> Satan is NOT a puppet. Satan is a being with a will.
> 
>  Man is NOT a puppet. Man is a being with a will.

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## Sola_Fide

> According to your theology, their "wills" are nothing more than manifestations of God's will, since God controls everything.  There is absolutely no functional difference between a puppet and any non-God being.


No.  Man's will is not a manifestation of God's will.

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## Sonny Tufts

> No.  Man's will is not a manifestation of God's will.


If it isn't, then God doesn't control everything, contrary to your claim that "God is in control of every facet of existence and God ALONE is sovereign."

Your inconsistency is showing, but that's nothing new.

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## Sola_Fide

> If it isn't, then God doesn't control everything, contrary to your claim that "God is in control of every facet of existence and God ALONE is sovereign."
> 
> Your inconsistency is showing, but that's nothing new.


There is nothing inconsistent in making a difference between God's will and man's will, but yet maintaining that God controls everything.  You said God's will is a "manifestation" of God's will.  That is not accurate.

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## lilymc

To JohnGalt -   I'm sorry that your thread got derailed.    My post to Sola added to that... but I don't want to ignore the fact that this thread is not about Calvinism.

If Sola wants to continue his argument with a few others here, I hope that he will start a new thread..... instead of turning this into Derailed Thread #189,453,782.

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## Sola_Fide

> Of course it is. If God controls every facet of existence, then it follows that He controls Man's will.  *If He controls man's will, then man really doesn't have a will of his own because everything he does is determined exclusively by God's will.*  It then follows that whatever man does comes directly from, and is a manifestation of, God's will.
> 
> And I will accede to lilymc's request and refrain from responding to you on this thread.  Start another if you wish to defend your inconsistent position.




Wrong.  What you are describing is something WITHOUT a will.  

Something WITHOUT a will does whatever it does because it is acted on by a governing force.  Something WITH a will does what it does because it WANTS to do what it does.

Man WANTS to do what he does.  Man WANTS to sin.  Man has a SINFUL WILL, and he SINS WILLFULLY with his SINFUL WILL.

I'm using exclamations and emphasis so you can see what I am saying.  You are describing puppets.  Men are not puppets.  Men WANT to do their sin.

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