# Start Here > Guest Forum >  Fire Departments and Police Departments: precise examples of Socialism

## Boshembechle

The community pooling in money to ensure that everyone has access. That is exactly what fire and police services are examples of. So why is it so morally outrageous to extend this to healthcare?

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

Dude, why are you pro liberty on every other forum you visit except this one?

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

So Bausch&Lomb has 158 posts.  All but a small handful of those posts are in the 30+ threads he started here.  His posts are all short.  He has no interest in debating.  

I'd guess his work is getting paid by forum owners to post on their forums (very common job).  Probably uses Ron Paul Forums to pick up answers to questions/issues on other forums.  Lazy, but shrewd.

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

dupe

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

dupe

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> The community pooling in money to ensure that everyone has access. That is exactly what fire and police services are examples of. So why is it so morally outrageous to extend this to healthcare?


Come on, answer me, you little slippery weasel.  I see you logged in here.  

You better come clean now, or it will be worse when I bust you on www.uselectionatlas.org.  Don't make me come over there!  lol

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## Petar

the interesting thing about this dude is that he totally avoids admitting that capitalism is not actually practiced today... the dude knows exactly what he is doing...

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## Petar

meanwhile, fire11 gets banned even though he is a million times more entertaining... life isn't fair sometimes...

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## mrsat_98

> The community pooling in money to ensure that everyone has access. That is exactly what fire and police services are examples of. So why is it so morally outrageous to extend this to healthcare?


Police services are a shining example of why it is morally outrageous to try to duplicate them with healthcare. Will someone please post the "thank you police" picture that is famous at RPF my favorite satire site.

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## Origanalist

> Police services are a shining example of why it is morally outrageous to try to duplicate them with healthcare. Will someone please post the "thank you police" picture that is famous at RPF my favorite satire site.


And while you're at it, get me a glass of milk.

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## pcosmar

> The community pooling in money to ensure that everyone has access. That is exactly what fire and police services are examples of. So why is it so morally outrageous to extend this to healthcare?


Police should not exist in a free society..

Police are Control. It is the meaning of the word.. An Authoritarian concept.

Police are not a service..

Many Fire Departments are volunteer.. That is how they started in the first place.
Volunteers serve the community..

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## acptulsa

Well, they _are_ prime examples of socialism.

Once upon a time, these services were the ways communities competed with each other.  Whichever community had the best services attracted more businesses and residents.  But that was then, and now the federal government up in the District of Calamity is on a mission to make them all equally terrible.  Much like the schools.  Now there's no sense of community left in them.  They just follow Washington's orders:  'Make the people miserable.'

There's your socialism for you.

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## presence

> Police should not exist in a free society..
> 
> Police are Control. It is the meaning of the word.. An Authoritarian concept.
> 
> Police are not a service..
> 
> Many Fire Departments are volunteer.. That is how they started in the first place.
> Volunteers serve the community..



+1

Disband the Stasi
Volunteer Fire Departments

2 more statist problems solved just like they were when this country was formed.

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## Anti Federalist

> meanwhile, fire11 gets banned even though he is a million times more entertaining... life isn't fair sometimes...


No kidding...obviously Bouillabaisse is running some kind of scam, or trolling operation.

Fire11 is, well, Fire11...

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## Boshembechle

What is the moral difference between your tax dollars going to welfare folks, and your tax dollars going to people who have a house on fire?

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## Anti Federalist

> What is the moral difference between your tax dollars going to welfare folks, and your tax dollars going to people who have a house on fire?


None, theft is theft.

Fire departments *used* to be run as private insurance policies.

If you didn't have a plaque like this on your building, you got no fire department.

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## juleswin

Some people only complain about bloated police pensions and pay but the same problem exists with fire fighters. The problem with socialism is not just the police, its also with the fire fighters and the setup we have right now with fire fighting. I tend to believe people take better care of their property when they are the one paying for the fire service. Also I hate the fact that we don't receive a bill directly for fire service and thus cannot see how badly we are being screwed.

Don't get me wrong, I love our fire dept, they come in mins after you call them and they will go into just about any fire disaster to rescue person and property. I also think they should be financially rewarded for their work and not just volunteer pay. But at the same time, I would love to see how the free market can improve on it.

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## phill4paul

I had a chimney fire once. I put it out.
  A neighbor set a can of ash near his shed and it ignited, my dog woke me to it. I put it out.
  While at some friends house a candle set a wall on fire. I put it out.
  My truck just caught on fire @ three weeks ago. I put it out.

  In three of the instances above the firefighters showed up after the danger had passed and filled out paper work ( much like every interaction with cops). In the last I didn't even bother calling. 

   I must be some kinda gotdamned *he-row*. Give me a pension.

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## presence

> What is the moral difference between your tax dollars going to welfare folks, and your tax dollars going to people who have a house on fire?


None.  They both invite moral hazards when handled as public services and should instead be handled by local family, friends, and voluntary community organizations.    70% of all firefighters are volunteers in the US, it is a matter of duty, honour, and community service... it used to be that way about "welfare" too.

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## mrsat_98

> What is the moral difference between your tax dollars going to welfare folks, and your tax dollars going to people who have a house on fire?


Excuse me but the house (gov) burnt to the ground (bankrupted) long before long before I got here. Who are you people ?

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## presence

File under:


*"Fire Departments and Police Departments: precise examples of Socialism"*





> SANTAQUIN, UT — A man was arrested for disorderly conduct and  obstructing justice when he refused to stop spraying water on a brush  fire that had ignited in a field behind his home.
> 
> The incident happened on July 4th in a field located behind a row of  houses.  At approximately 9:30 p.m., some brush caught fire due to  errant use of fireworks.  Spectators quickly assisted and one woman  called 9-1-1 for help.
> 
> 
>  “An apparent spark lit a tree over there from an old orchard on  fire,” said 36-year-old Santaquin resident, Jason Thornton.  “Myself, my  two nephews, and a few neighbors rushed to action, got our hoses out,  contained the fire to one tree, waiting for the fire department to show  up.”
> 
> 
>  Mr. Thornton continued: “While fighting the fire, somebody said,  ‘stop!’  I told them, ‘no’ in a very unpolite way.  He told me again to  stop.  I said, ‘No, I’m manning this fire.  I’m not stopping until the  fire department gets here.’”
> ...


http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/j...on-brush-fire/

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## Bryan

> The community pooling in money to ensure that everyone has access. That is exactly what fire and police services are examples of. So why is it so morally outrageous to extend this to healthcare?


The key point that is morally outrageous is forcing other people to pay for someone elses healthcare, via taxation. Or could you please explain how forced taxation for something someone does not want, need or use, is morally acceptable?

Thanks!

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## bunklocoempire

> Some people only complain about bloated police pensions and pay but the same problem exists with fire fighters. The problem with socialism is not just the police, its also with the fire fighters and the setup we have right now with fire fighting.* I tend to believe people take better care of their property when they are the one paying for the fire service. Also I hate the fact that we don't receive a bill directly for fire service and thus cannot see how badly we are being screwed.
> *
> Don't get me wrong, I love our fire dept, they come in mins after you call them and they will go into just about any fire disaster to rescue person and property. I also think they should be financially rewarded for their work and not just volunteer pay. But at the same time, I would love to see how the free market can improve on it.


As a father of a firefighter and also as a father of a cop in training I couldn't agree more.

I am completely convinced that all this is dumbing down people and encouraging them to become more complacent.  LESS SAFE.

The intentions of my young lads are certainly good, the system they have chosen to participate in is _fail_.

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## osan

> The intentions of my young lads are certainly good, the system they have chosen to participate in is _fail_.


Did you not beat them sufficiently?

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## GunnyFreedom

My area is served by volunteer a fire department who raises all their own money with fundraisers.  My FD is a precise example of _the free market_, and I guarantee you we have a lower rate of destructive fires than you do.

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## presence

Off on a fire department rant... increasingly, volunteer fire departments are being regulated out of existence.   The federal training demands have increased enormously making it difficult to recruit and retain.  Now Obamacare is forcing volunteer fire departments to offer insurance to the volunteers which will certainly drive many under, making the way for big government solutions where once communities rallied in honor, duty, and friendship.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Off on a fire department rant... increasingly, volunteer fire departments are being regulated out of existence.   The federal training demands have increased enormously making it difficult to recruit and retain.  Now Obamacare is forcing volunteer fire departments to offer insurance to the volunteers which will certainly drive many under, making the way for big government solutions where once communities rallied in honor, duty, and friendship.


qft +rep

We will _all_ get stuck with inadequate incompetent socialist fire departments thanks to the Tyrant In Chief.

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## Anti Federalist

> Off on a fire department rant... increasingly, volunteer fire departments are being regulated out of existence.   The federal training demands have increased enormously making it difficult to recruit and retain.  Now Obamacare is forcing volunteer fire departments to offer insurance to the volunteers which will certainly drive many under, making the way for big government solutions where once communities rallied in honor, duty, and friendship.


Compliance compliance compliance.

ETA - That explains their increasingly hostile and belligerent attitude towards us Mundanes.

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## acptulsa

> Off on a fire department rant... increasingly, volunteer fire departments are being regulated out of existence.   The federal training demands have increased enormously making it difficult to recruit and retain.  Now Obamacare is forcing volunteer fire departments to offer insurance to the volunteers which will certainly drive many under, making the way for big government solutions where once communities rallied in honor, duty, and friendship.


And, of course, some 70% of Oklahoma's fire departments are volunteer.  I guess if Obama can't successfully sic the IRS on the red states, he'll just make sure we all burn to a crisp...

The precise definition of socialism, indeed.  More like the precise definition of Stalinism.

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## Boshembechle

1)  Volunteer departments still get federal funding 

2) In a free market, what happens if your abode is on fire and you can't afford the market price for fire protection services?

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## juleswin

> 1)  Volunteer departments still get federal funding 
> 
> 2) In a free market, what happens if your abode is on fire and you can't afford the market price for fire protection services?



Do you have a source for the #1 point? I have always been super skeptical of volunteer fire depts, the idea of a bunch of grown men sitting around waiting for neighbors and businesses to need fire service and only financed by the generosity of the public is something I have always had a hard time believing.

I mean, its almost as unbelievable as a fully staffed volunteer emergency room hospital ward.

Exception will be in really small towns and communities where its easier to hold people accountable and free rider are easily spotted. So essentially, I am talking about big city volunteer fire depts.

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## acptulsa

> 1)  Volunteer departments still get federal funding


Fire departments don't _still_ get federal funding, they _now_ get federal funding.  And it isn't enough to save them from the new federal mandates.  They were better off before.




> 2) In a free market, what happens if your abode is on fire and you can't afford the market price for fire protection services?


In a free market, fire protection services came with your insurance, at least in cities.  Presumably, if you couldn't afford insurance you were very, very careful.  If your house burned because the neighbor's house was burning and it caught yours on fire, there could be recourse through liability suits in court.  As for rural residents, the traditional thing is you go to your neighbor's house when they have a fire, and they come to _your_ barbecue...

In any case, hospitals try to collect later.  And in many places, fire departments do too.

You do realize, don't you, that fire departments seldom even try to put out a building that is burning furiously.  They just try to keep it from spreading.

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## presence

> 1)  Volunteer departments still get federal funding 
> 
> 2) In a free market, what happens if your abode is on fire and you can't afford the market price for fire protection services?


I live pretty far out in the sticks... when my next door neighbors home caught fire, another neighbor and myself were there within 5 minutes with extinguishers.  Wearing welding masks and carhartt coveralls we snuffed out a room of fire before our extinguishers emptied; the house had no water because the pipes were frozen.   We closed doors on the hot room and 30 minutes later the 1st of 7  fire departments arrived while the fire smouldered.  The untrained dipshits with federal funding didn't know how to start their pump to pull water from the local creek.     So my neighbor and I pushed some firefighters to the side and got their pump engine started.  We backed away and let them do their thing.   Except the federally funded dipshits didn't know how to prime a pump, so we pushed them aside again and got their pump primed.      We're lucky the cops hadn't shown up yet or we probably would have been arrested.   So anyway they get in there and spray the home down, getting the fire doused completely in short order.   After they pulled the hoses and the fire was out (only 2 men ever actually went in there when it was hot) they sent in the troops.  20 men gutted the man's home to the studs... they never brought any water back it to fight more fire... they just shredded his home as if it were some exercise.

The following week those of us on our dirt road exchanged home and cell phone numbers and shed keys.  We each acquired some firefighting equipment.  Personally I picked up 4 10lb extinguishers and some higher quality gas masks.  Another neighbor picked up a water pump and hoses.   Next time we'll tend the situation ourselves without the federally funded live training seminar.

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