# Lifestyles & Discussion > Personal Health & Well-Being >  Meat eaters surprising low in B12, study

## farreri

*B12 Deficiency May Be More Widespread Than Thought*
By Judy McBride
August 2, 2000

Nearly two-fifths of the U.S. population may be flirting with marginal vitamin B12 status if the population of Framingham, Mass., is any indication.

A careful look at *3,000 men and women* in the ongoing Framingham Offspring Study *found 39 percent with plasma B12 levels in the “low normal” range*--below 258 picomoles per liter.

While this is well above the currently accepted deficiency level of 148 pmol/L, *some people exhibit neurological symptoms in the higher range*, said study leader Katherine Tucker. She is a nutritional epidemiologist at the Jean Mayer USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts University in Boston.

*Nearly 9 percent of the study population fell below the current deficiency level. And more than 16 percent fell below 185 pmol/L.* “Many people may be deficient at this level,” said Tucker. “There is a question as to what the clinical cutoff for deficiency should be.

“I think there is a lot of undetected vitamin B12 deficiency out there,” she said, noting that* the study covered people from 26 to 83 years old*. The research was funded by the Agricultural Research Service (ARS), USDA’s chief scientific agency.

B12 deficiency can cause a type of anemia marked by fewer but larger red blood cells. It can also cause walking and balance disturbances, a loss of vibration sensation, confusion, and, in advanced cases, dementia. The body requires B12 to make the protective coating surrounding the nerves, so inadequate B12 can expose nerves to damage.

“The good news,” said ARS administrator Floyd Horn, “is that *most people can improve their B12 status by eating more fortified cereals* and dairy products. Dr. Tucker’s findings show that these foods were nearly as effective as supplements containing B12 for getting people’s blood levels above the danger zone.”

Tucker and colleagues looked at B12 levels spanning the adult population because most previous studies have focused on the elderly, who were thought to be at higher risk for deficiency. *The results were surprising. The youngest group--the 26- to 49-year-olds--had about the same B12 status as the oldest group--65 and up. “We saw a high prevalence of low B12 even among the youngest group,”* Tucker said.

The researchers also expected to find some connection between dietary intake and plasma levels, even though other studies found no association. And they did find a connection. Supplement use dropped the percentage of volunteers in the danger zone--plasma B12 below 185 pmol/L--from 20 percent to 8. Eating fortified cereals five or more times a week or being among the highest third for dairy intake reduced, by nearly half, the percentage of volunteers in that zone--from 23 and 24 percent, respectively, to 12 and 13 percent.

*Oddly, the researchers found no association between plasma B12 levels and meat, poultry, and fish intake*, even though these foods supply the bulk of B12 in the diet. *“It’s not because people aren’t eating enough meat,”* Tucker said. *“The vitamin isn’t getting absorbed.”*

In the elderly, it’s probably because they don’t secrete enough stomach acid to separate the vitamin from the meat proteins that tightly bind it. *But Tucker can only speculate about the reasons for poor absorption of the vitamin from meat among younger adults* or why B12 appears to be better absorbed from dairy products than from meats.

Fortified cereals are a different story. Tucker said the vitamin is sprayed on during processing and is “more like what we get in supplements.” 

https://www.ars.usda.gov/news-events...-than-thought/

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## tod evans

1st hit on Google for "source B-12"





> Sources of Vitamin B12. Vitamin B12 is naturally found in animal products, including fish, meat, poultry, eggs, milk, and milk products. Vitamin B12 is generally not present in plant foods, but fortified breakfast cereals are a readily available source of vitamin B12 with high bioavailability for vegetarians [5,13-15].


https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Vi...hProfessional/

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## Chester Copperpot

PEOPLE NEED TO EAT SARDINES.. BEST SOURCE OF VITAMIN B-12 IN THE WORLD.

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## presence

> *found 39 percent with plasma B12 levels in the “low normal” range*


so probably another 39 percent in the high normal... then 11% each on the extremes

lol

that's truly amazing and very concerning

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## Chester Copperpot

> so probably another 39 percent in the high normal... then 11% each on the extremes
> 
> lol
> 
> that's truly amazing and very concerning


and theyre only testing for one type of Vitamin B-12.. Imagine the issues with all the other versions that arent even tested for.

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## farreri

> PEOPLE NEED TO EAT SARDINES.. BEST SOURCE OF VITAMIN B-12 IN THE WORLD.


Or take a B12 supplement that's much cheaper and less risk of heavy metals from our polluted oceans, like mercury.

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## Chester Copperpot

> Or take a B12 supplement that's much cheaper and less risk of heavy metals from our polluted oceans, like mercury.


if you eat small fish on the food chain like sardines you wont get heavy metals like mercury... plus the synthetic vitamins are cheap because they suck.. poor quality and no replacement for natural vitamins found in food

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## donnay

> Or take a B12 supplement that's much cheaper and less risk of heavy metals from our polluted oceans, like mercury.


This is the one I use and you have to learn to do your own research to find the best products:


http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/vegansafe-b-12.html

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## Natural Citizen

> 1st hit on Google for "source B-12"
> 
> 
> 
> https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Vi...hProfessional/


That reminds me, I need to go get more cereal. I like the nutty kind. The ones with all of those dates and raisins and nuts and whatnot. My cereal bowl may as well be a bucket.

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## Natural Citizen

> This is the one I use and you have to learn to do your own research to find the best products:
> 
> 
> http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/vegansafe-b-12.html


I get a lot of stuff from here... http://www.purehealingfoods.com/store.php

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## farreri

> plus the synthetic vitamins are cheap because they suck.. poor quality and no replacement for natural vitamins found in food


That's just NOT true. My B12, hematocrit, and homocystiene levels are all in the optimal range thanks to the inexpensive and easy synthetic B12 supplement I buy over the counter, coupled with my clean plant based diet.

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## farreri

> This is the one I use and you have to learn to do your own research to find the best products:
> 
> 
> http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/vegansafe-b-12.html


I'm currently using the brand by NOW Foods. Cheap and it works. I take 1000 mcg a day get my levels on the high range which I believe is optimal.

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## phill4paul

> That's just NOT true. My B12, hematocrit, and homocystiene levels are all in the optimal range thanks to the inexpensive and easy synthetic B12 supplement I buy over the counter, coupled with my clean plant based diet.


Lol at eating a vegan diet for health reasons then choking down a synth supplement.

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## Chester Copperpot

> That's just NOT true. My B12, hematocrit, and homocystiene levels are all in the optimal range thanks to the inexpensive and easy synthetic B12 supplement I buy over the counter, coupled with my clean plant based diet.


another day we can reopen up the entire discussion of what vitamins are... Things are in an optimal range perhaps but they are only testing for ONE TYPE of Vitamin B-12... What do you do about the other 100 varities that arent tested because people dont even know they exist... I understand your rationale, but my rationale is get it from the food because thats the best way to cover your ass IMO.. But another day... Ive had enough for one day

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## donnay

> I'm currently using the brand by NOW Foods. Cheap and it works. I take 1000 mcg a day get my levels on the high range which I believe is optimal.


NOW is made with Cyanocobalamin and is not a bioavailable form of B12.  The best sources of B12 is Methylcobalamin and Adenosylcobalamin, which are the most bioavailable forms of B12.




> Methylcobalamin, or methylated B-12 is the most pure, active, bioavailable coenzyme form of B-12 and when paired with adenosylcobalamin, the other coenzyme form of B-12, forms the most potent B-12 combination available.

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## farreri

> NOW is made with *Cyanocobalamin and is not a bioavailable form of B12*.  The best sources of B12 is Methylcobalamin and Adenosylcobalamin, which are the most bioavailable forms of B12.


Yes it is. You're being ripped off by supplement sellers trying to get higher markups by scaring people into thinking the cheaper less profitable B12 forms aren't as good. 




> Cyanide-free synthetic forms of the vitamin—hydroxocobalamin, methylcobalamin, and adenosylcobalamin—are being used in some pharmacological products and supplements, but* their claimed superiority to cyanocobalamin is debatable*.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12#Supplements

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## AZJoe

If you need more B-12 in your diet, try shellfish, liver, fish, red meat and eggs:

Shellfish - Mollusks (Clams, Oysters, Mussels)
%DV per 3oz serving cooked: Clams (1648% DV) Oysters (408%), and Mussels (340%).

Liver (Beef, Liverwurst, Foie Gras, Chicken Liver Pate)
%DV per 3oz serving: Beef Liver 83.1μg (1386% DV), Liverwurst Sausage (189%), Pate de Foie Gras (133%) and Chicken Liver Pate (114%).

Fish
%DV per 3oz serving cooked: Mackerel (317%), Smoked Salmon (257%), Herring (186%), Tuna (154%), Canned Sardines (126%) and Trout (106%).

Crustaceans (Crab)
%DV per 3oz serving cooked: Crab (192%), Crayfish (44%), Shrimp (24%) and Lobster (20%).

Red Meat (Beef, Lamb)
%DV per 3oz serving cooked: (85%), Lamb (45%)

Eggs (Goose, Duck, Turkey, Chicken)
%DV per whole egg, raw: Goose (122%), Duck (63%), Turkey (22%), Chicken (6%) and Quail (2%).

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## farreri

> If you need more B-12 in your diet, try shellfish, liver, fish, *red meat* and eggs:


Obviously, you didn't read the article in the OP.  

But why not take a B12 supplement that will save you a lot of money and not risk your health with those foods you mentioned?

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## GunnyFreedom

> PEOPLE NEED TO EAT SARDINES.. BEST SOURCE OF VITAMIN B-12 IN THE WORLD.


Ever since I discovered King Oscar sardines, I have been one sardine-eating fella.  I really like the "Mediterranean Style" and the "Olive Oil," but sometimes I'll enjoy the Jalapeno one too.  I get stacks and stacks of the things, and eat them with regularity.

I also drink a lot of 5 hour energy, which has something like 8000% RDA for B-12.

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## GunnyFreedom

> If you need more B-12 in your diet, try shellfish, liver, fish, red meat and eggs:
> Fish
> %DV per 3oz serving cooked: Mackerel (317%), Smoked Salmon (257%), Herring (186%), Tuna (154%), Canned Sardines (126%) and Trout (106%).


King Oscar makes little cans of Mackerel too, and I eat the heck out of that stuff.  All. The. Time.

I also get a different brand of canned smoked salmon I can't remember right now.

lol, pretty sure I have absolutely nothing to worry about when it comes to B-12 intake.

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## Chester Copperpot

> Ever since I discovered King Oscar sardines, I have been one sardine-eating fella.  I really like the "Mediterranean Style" and the "Olive Oil," but sometimes I'll enjoy the Jalapeno one too.  I get stacks and stacks of the things, and eat them with regularity.
> 
> I also drink a lot of 5 hour energy, which has something like 8000% RDA for B-12.


Yeah King Oscar are great.. I love that mediterranean style myself... hope it tastes just as good when my taste buds come back

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## Natural Citizen

Yeah, I like sardines, too. Same here. I buy them by the stack, too. I like the mustard packed ones the best.

Of course, I never tried the other flavors either. I've always just got the mustard packed ones.

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## Zippyjuan

Headline: 




> Meat eaters surprising low in B12, study



Body of article: 




> Oddly, the researchers found* no association* between plasma B12 levels and meat, poultry, and fish intake


Also:  




> Nearly 9 percent of the study population fell below the current deficiency level.


meaning 91% would not be considered "deficient".

Yet another example of meat eating being no better or worse than not eating meat.

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## lilymc

> Lol at eating a vegan diet for health reasons then choking down a synth supplement.


You do realize that vitamin B12 is not produced by animals?  It's from bacteria found either in the soil or bodies of water.    So getting it from animals (who often get it from eating poop) is actually just a different form of packaging than a vegan getting it as a supplement.

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## lilymc



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## Chester Copperpot

> 


I stopped watching @3:50 in the video.. This lady doesnt have any understanding of the difference between a natural vitamin and a synthetic one.. Its not really her fault - most people arent aware of it either. But if shes going to make a video about natural sources of Vitamin B-12 and ignore the most potent natural food source - _Sardines_ then she is hardly someone I would be comfortable taking advice from. 

She is correct that most animal meat is going to be devoid of nutrients and its because of factory farming conditions where the animals themselves are only given crappy food and candy, synthetic vitamins, GMO grains, and all sorts of chemicals and meds to stay alive just long enough to make it to slaughter,,, All the more reason to buy grassfed & pastured animals and simply eat that meat instead. Its one reason I go out of my way every month or so and make a 5 hour round trip to a farm to buy my meats, milk, eggs etc..  The animals graze in a natural environment and no little baby chicks are ground up in machines or anything inhumane done to them.

Seafood.. wildcaught seafood is the best way to ensure vitamins and especially minerals are being gotten through diet.  People need to stay away from farm raised seafood for the same reason they should stay away from factory farmed land animals.

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## phill4paul

> I stopped watching @3:50 in the video.. This lady doesnt have any understanding of the difference between a natural vitamin and a synthetic one.. Its not really her fault - most people arent aware of it either. But if shes going to make a video about natural sources of Vitamin B-12 and ignore the most potent natural food source - _Sardines_ then she is hardly someone I would be comfortable taking advice from. 
> 
> She is correct that most animal meat is going to be devoid of nutrients and its because of factory farming conditions where the animals themselves are only given crappy food and candy, synthetic vitamins, GMO grains, and all sorts of chemicals and meds to stay alive just long enough to make it to slaughter,,, All the more reason to buy grassfed & pastured animals and simply eat that meat instead. Its one reason I go out of my way every month or so and make a 5 hour round trip to a farm to buy my meats, milk, eggs etc..  The animals graze in a natural environment and no little baby chicks are ground up in machines or anything inhumane done to them.
> 
> Seafood.. wildcaught seafood is the best way to ensure vitamins and especially minerals are being gotten through diet.  People need to stay away from farm raised seafood for the same reason they should stay away from factory farmed land animals.


^^^

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## Suzanimal

> Yeah, I like sardines, too. Same here. I buy them by the stack, too. I like the mustard packed ones the best.
> 
> Of course, I never tried the other flavors either. I've always just got the mustard packed ones.


Mustard is the only kind I've ever had. Sardines are great, people used to eat them a lot but it seems like they gone by the way side. At least we ate them a lot, my dad would take sardines and crackers for lunch just about everyday and my mom would throw 'em in our lunch sack when we were out of sandwich stuff.

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## Suzanimal

As far as B12 goes, I get a shot once a month from my doc. I costs 100.00 a year, I don't have to remember to take them, and I feel like Wonder Woman.

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## AZJoe

> Or take a B12 supplement.


If you have to take processed supplements to get necessary nutrition, that is an indicator there is something wrong with your diet.

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## Suzanimal

> If you have to take processed supplements to get necessary nutrition, that an indicator there is something wrong with your diet.


I would mostly agree with that and thought that way for a long time but when my thyroid went haywire I found out my vitamin D was extremely low. That's crazy considering I'm outside all the time. Seriously, my laptop is on my back porch, I do about an hour of yard work a day, and I swim everyday April-October (heated pool). Oh, and I don't wear sunscreen. I was shocked to find out I was low in D of all things.

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## AZJoe

> Obviously, you didn't read the article in the OP.


You only selectively read it. You don't get B12 from cereals unless its "fortified" - i.e. artificially sprayed on. Well if you spray B12 on something, yes you'll ingest B12. Spray it on meat and meat has even more B12 than it already does. Spray B12 on a piece of cardboard and you have "fortified" cardboard, but that does not make cardboard a good source of B12, it only makes the chemically processed spray an artificial unnatural source of B12. B12 is not naturally present in ordinary plant foods, only animal foods. As a result 50% of vegetarians and 80% of vegans are deficient in this necessary nutrient. 

The OP article did not indicate meat was not a good source of B12, but rather that people are having an issue with absorption of B12 even though they may be eating "meat" products presumably containing B12. It did not address why. Nor did it identify specific "meat" products or quantity which vary greatly. Were they highly processed (i.e. canned tuna, hot dogs, lunch meats, packaged and processed grain fed products laced with preservatives, etc.; or fresh unprocessed grass fed or free range products? It did not address diets containing all natural wild game or fish or shellfish. It also did not take a holistic view - eating a varied diet of natural sourced foods both plant and animal. There are also additional Issues that prevent the absorption of B12 including taking medications, imbibing alcohol, low acid production, autoimmune disorders, gastrointestinal disorders -"leaky" gut, Crohn's, IBS, celiac or dysbiosis.

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## farreri

> I stopped watching @3:50 in the video.. This lady doesnt have any understanding of the difference between a natural vitamin and a synthetic one.


There is no difference. I chemical structure is a chemical structure. If synthetic B12 was inferior, my blood work would be showing it by now, however since I'm taking a higher dose of synthetic B12, my B12-related blood work are in optimal levels. You're being misguided on this issue. Stop listening to those supplement selling quacks who want you to buy their over-priced supplements. The cheap ones in the regular grocery stores are all you need.

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## farreri

> As far as B12 goes, I get a shot once a month from my doc. I costs 100.00 a year, I don't have to remember to take them, and I feel like Wonder Woman.


Shots are definitely the most reliable. You should by them online and give the shots yourself. Will save you a lot of money and time.

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## donnay

> Yes it is. You're being ripped off by supplement sellers trying to get higher markups by scaring people into thinking the cheaper less profitable B12 forms aren't as good.





> *Cyanide-free* synthetic forms of the vitamin—hydroxocobalamin, methylcobalamin, and adenosylcobalamin—are being used in some pharmacological products and supplements, but their claimed superiority to *cyanocobalamin* is debatable.


The cheap synthetic form is actually bound to a cyanide molecule--So it is not cyanide-free.

As Wikipedia explains: 



> _"__A common synthetic form of the vitamin is cyanocobalamin,  produced by chemically modifying bacterial hydroxocobalamin. Because of  superior stability and low cost this form is used in many  pharmaceuticals and supplements as well as for fortification of foods.  In the body, it is converted into the human physiological forms methylcobalamin and 5'-deoxyadenosylcobalamin. In this process a cyanide ion, (CN−), is produced..."_


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12

Your body needs to work harder to process the Cynacobalamin than it would had you used something with Methylcobalamin and Adenosylcobalamin already in it.

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## farreri

> If you have to take processed supplements to get necessary nutrition, that an indicator there is something wrong with your diet.


That's a fallacy argument. We don't live in the wild anymore, or do you still hunt all your own food, collect your water at a stream, or use fire to see at night? And why would you risk dying of one of the top 6 out of 10 killers (caused by too much animal products) just to "naturally" get ONE vitamin instead of the much safer and inexpensive small pill supplement or fortified foods? 

If we go by your logic is an indicator, I guess eating animals for B12 is not the natural either, because this is how most animal products you eat get their B12 these days:

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## farreri

> it only makes the chemically processed spray an artificial unnatural source of B12.


Why is an "unnatural" source of B12 bad? My B12-related blood works is at optimal levels from the "unnatural" cheap synthetic cyano B12 I take. My body is not rejecting it.




> B12 is not naturally present in ordinary plant foods, only animal foods.


How do animals naturally get their B12?




> As a result 50% of vegetarians and 80% of vegans are deficient in this necessary nutrient.


Why would vegetarians by low in B12 since they still eat dairy and eggs? Were those vegans not taking a B12 supp?




> The OP article did not indicate meat was not a good source of B12, but rather that people are having an issue with absorption of B12 even though they may be eating "meat" products presumably containing B12. It did not address why.


Regardless of the reason, looks like that natural B12 wasn't doing them much good.

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## farreri

> In this process a *cyanide ion*, (CN−), is produced, *but the amount is very, very small* (20 μg from 1,000 μg of cyanocobalamin) compared to what would cause a toxicity risk, and is in fact *less than the amount of cyanide consumed daily from food* (primarily fruit, nuts, seeds, and legumes).


I'm not worried about it.




> Your body needs to work harder to process the Cynacobalamin than it would had you used something with Methylcobalamin and Adenosylcobalamin already in it.


If your over-priced B12 is working for you and you're happy with it, by all means continue with it, but for those people who don't want to spend more of their hard earned money than they have to, the cheaper cyano B12 works just fine.

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## farreri

> but when my thyroid went haywire


Because like most thinner women, you're not eating enough.




> I found out my vitamin D was extremely low. That's crazy considering I'm outside all the time.


The further north or south of the equator, the more the sun's rays are at an angle making it harder to get enough Vit D.  Otherwise, you have to eat a lot of animal products to "naturally" get enough Vit D, but then you'll start suffering the consequences of eating too much animal products (obesity, diabetes, kidney disease, auto immune disorders, gout, cancer, heart disease, etc).

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## donnay

> I'm not worried about it.
> 
> 
> If your over-priced B12 is working for you and you're happy with it, by all means continue with it, but for those people who don't want to spend more of their hard earned money than they have to, the cheaper cyano B12 works just fine.



Well then you'll have to take other supplements like glutathione because that is one of the methyl groups cynacobalamin steals to make it more bioavailable.   One of the reasons why low-grade/synthetic vitamins can actually worsen your health.

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## Natural Citizen

Hey, why can't vegans eat seafood? It's good for you. And none of the inhumane treatment like other animals. Is there a reason?

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## farreri

> Well then you'll have to take other supplements like glutathione because that is one of the methyl groups cynacobalamin steals to make it more bioavailable.   One of the reasons why low-grade/synthetic vitamins can actually worsen your health.


Any evidence that's actually causing a problem, or is it just a theory?

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## farreri

> Hey, why can't vegans eat seafood? It's good for you. And *none of the inhumane treatment like other animals*. Is there a reason?

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## Carlybee

Eat what you want

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## donnay

> Any evidence that's actually causing a problem, or is it just a theory?





> Cyanocobalamin is a inexpensive, synthetic chemical made in a laboratory and you cannot find 
> this form in nature. Low-end vitamin manufacturers use it because it can be bought in bulk and added 
> to products with claims that they "contain vitamin B-12". Removing the cyanide molecule from the 
> vitamin and then flushing it out of your body requires using up so-called "methyl groups" of molecules 
> in your body that are needed to fight things like homocysteine (high levels cause heart disease). 
> 
> By taking low-quality cyanobalamin, you're actually stealing methyl groups from your body and 
> making it do more work at the biochemical level. This uses up substances such as glutathione that are 
> often in short supply anyway, potentially worsening your overall health situation rather than helping it.
> ...


http://www.keephopealive.org/VITAMIN%20B12.pdf

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## farreri

> Headline:


I thought my headline was more accurate than theirs. "B12 Deficiency May Be More Widespread Than Thought"




> meaning 91% would not be considered "deficient".


found 39 percent with plasma B12 levels in the low normal range

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## farreri

> http://www.keephopealive.org/VITAMIN%20B12.pdf


When I asked for evidence, I meant scientifically proven evidence, not someone's theory written on their personal website. Cyano B12 has been used for many many decades by doctors and over the counter. I think proof would have surfaced by now if it was actually causing problems.

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## luctor-et-emergo

> Hey, why can't vegans eat seafood? It's good for you. And none of the inhumane treatment like other animals. Is there a reason?


None of the inhumane treatments ??? 

Aquaculture has very high density culture, lots of antibiotics, diseases, feed that's not sustainable at all. 
Fish that are caught in the wild, generally suffocate to death, which is not a very friendly thing to do. 
Nets and stuff destroy a lot of sea-life or catch the wrong species. 

Now I like to fish at sea so I participate with dragging fish on a line to an early death with a club... But I would definitely not say that the production of seafood is particularly beneficial. Some (wild) fishing methods are perfectly fine. Aquaculture and mega scale fishing boats generally not.

Oh and, screw vegans.. Their liberty but my freedom of speech.

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## AZJoe

> That's a fallacy argument. We don't live in the wild anymore, or do you still hunt all your own food, collect your water at a stream, or use fire to see at night? And why would you risk dying of one of the top 6 out of 10 killers (caused by too much animal products) just to "naturally" get ONE vitamin instead of the much safer and inexpensive small pill supplement or fortified foods? 
> 
> If we go by your logic is an indicator, I guess eating animals for B12 is not the natural either, because this is how most animal products you eat get their B12 these days:


Talk about fallacy.

Yes, we don't live in the wild, that is why thanks to the free market we have more choices than ever, and it is easier than ever to actively choose grass fed or free range animal or seafood products or organic plant products. In addition you can even raise your own plants, animals, eggs. And yes you still hunt and fish for wild game like a many of us do. In addition you can still purchase wild fish and shellfish. It is quite wonderful. (and btw, you don't know what products I eat). 

Yes, agree there are many animals as well as plants raised in chemical additives, injections, herbicides, pesticides, hormones, etc. farerri even indicated the ill effects of "factory" farming, "That's what happens when factory farming tries to cram as many animals as it can in the smallest space possible." But again thanks to the wonders of the free market you can actively seek out products without those. Animals for tens of millions of years were not getting artificial B12 shots. Even farreri used the term "bull$#@! supplements." You can choose a diet dependent on chemicals, and others can choose a diet that is a bit more natural.

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## Chester Copperpot

> Mustard is the only kind I've ever had. Sardines are great, people used to eat them a lot but it seems like they gone by the way side. At least we ate them a lot, my dad would take sardines and crackers for lunch just about everyday and my mom would throw 'em in our lunch sack when we were out of sandwich stuff.


theyre definitely not popular but theyre one of the healthiest things people can eat... Long time ago when I was a little boy I was visitng my grandparents in florida and they took me over to one of their friend's houses for lunch.. Well when we got there it was like a secret banquet of senior citizens and everybody was eating sardines on bread... If the old people eat it, its good.

My grandpa said anything that wasnt packed in olive oil was crap.. and he might be right about that but to be honest theyre all good for you... I like bumble bee sometimes in mustard or hot sauce.. and granted its a much bigger sardine than king oscar but its still good.. (The smaller the fish the better basically).. plus the olive oil is real oil not soybean oil which is a very unhealthy oil

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## Chester Copperpot

> There is no difference. I chemical structure is a chemical structure. If synthetic B12 was inferior, my blood work would be showing it by now, however since I'm taking a higher dose of synthetic B12, my B12-related blood work are in optimal levels. You're being misguided on this issue. Stop listening to those supplement selling quacks who want you to buy their over-priced supplements. The cheap ones in the regular grocery stores are all you need.


Thats what Im trying to explain to you.. Natural B-12 has different chemical structures.. and no they dont show up on your tests because your test is only testing for the one type of chemical structure that is identical to the form of B-12 you are taking.  There are probably hundreds of various chemical structures - forms of Vitamin B-12.. and all vitamins for that matter. They all exist in nature but they do not exist in laboratories or in synthetically made pills.

And again youre not listening... I dont listen to supplement selling quacks. I dont take synthetic products like that. Ive mentioned that a hundred times.. Anything high-potency is a sure-fire sign its artificial and ineffective. The nutrients have to come from food.

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## farreri

> Yes, we don't live in the wild, that is why thanks to the free market we have more choices than ever,


And inexpensive B12 supplements are a great choice to have in the free market instead of having to get B12 from potential disease causing animal product.

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## farreri

> Thats what Im trying to explain to you.. Natural B-12 has different chemical structures.. and no they dont show up on your tests because your test is only testing for the one type of chemical structure that is identical to the form of B-12 you are taking.  There are probably hundreds of various chemical structures - forms of Vitamin B-12.. and all vitamins for that matter. They all exist in nature but they do not exist in laboratories or in synthetically made pills.


Link to support your repeated claim?

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## Chester Copperpot

> Link to support your repeated claim?


I just posted a new thread... itll be a good way to start out the topic

----------


## luctor-et-emergo

> And inexpensive B12 supplements are a great choice to have in the free market instead of having to get B12 from *potential disease causing animal product.*


You paranoia is laughable.

----------


## farreri

> You paranoia is laughable.


Is it?

*Leading Causes of Death*
• *Heart disease*: 614,348
• *Cancer*: 591,699
• Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 147,101
• Accidents (unintentional injuries): 136,053
• *Stroke* (cerebrovascular diseases): 133,103
•* Alzheimer's disease*: 93,541
• *Diabetes*: 76,488
• Influenza and pneumonia: 55,227
• (*Kidney Disease*) Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 48,146
• Intentional self-harm (suicide): 42,773
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lead...s-of-death.htm

----------


## lilymc

> I stopped watching @3:50 in the video.. This lady doesnt have any understanding of the difference between a natural vitamin and a synthetic one.. Its not really her fault - most people arent aware of it either. But if shes going to make a video about natural sources of Vitamin B-12 and ignore the most potent natural food source - _Sardines_ then she is hardly someone I would be comfortable taking advice from. 
> 
> She is correct that most animal meat is going to be devoid of nutrients and its because of factory farming conditions where the animals themselves are only given crappy food and candy, synthetic vitamins, GMO grains, and all sorts of chemicals and meds to stay alive just long enough to make it to slaughter,,, All the more reason to buy grassfed & pastured animals and simply eat that meat instead. Its one reason I go out of my way every month or so and make a 5 hour round trip to a farm to buy my meats, milk, eggs etc..  The animals graze in a natural environment and no little baby chicks are ground up in machines or anything inhumane done to them.
> 
> Seafood.. wildcaught seafood is the best way to ensure vitamins and especially minerals are being gotten through diet.  People need to stay away from farm raised seafood for the same reason they should stay away from factory farmed land animals.


You completely missed the main point in that video. (and if you didn't watch the whole thing, you missed a number of other important points.)  B12 isn't an animal product, it doesn't come from animals, it comes from bacteria found in soil or water.    

You're confusing B12 in and of itself, with places it can be found.   Why would you expect her to talk about sardines when she's a vegan? 

She didn't discuss the different types of B12 or all the places it can be found because that wasn't the point of the video.

----------


## luctor-et-emergo

> Is it?
> 
> *Leading Causes of Death*
> • *Heart disease*: 614,348
> • *Cancer*: 591,699
> • Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 147,101
> • Accidents (unintentional injuries): 136,053
> • *Stroke* (cerebrovascular diseases): 133,103
> •* Alzheimer's disease*: 93,541
> ...


I was referring to your comment, which I will repeat; 



> of having to get B12 from *potential disease causing animal product.*


Animal products are perfectly safe to eat when stored and prepared correctly. Any kind of food or diet has an impact on health. There is no 'correct' diet. People from all over the world have grown old on all sorts of different diets and people have died young on exactly the same diets. There are some general things that inform us on what is potentially (very) unhealthy but there's nothing that's true in the absolute.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Talk about fallacy.
> 
> Yes, we don't live in the wild, that is why thanks to the free market we have more choices than ever, and it is easier than ever to actively choose grass fed or free range animal or seafood products or organic plant products. In addition you can even raise your own plants, animals, eggs. And yes you still hunt and fish for wild game like a many of us do. In addition you can still purchase wild fish and shellfish. It is quite wonderful. (and btw, you don't know what products I eat). 
> 
> Yes, agree there are many animals as well as plants raised in chemical additives, injections, herbicides, pesticides, hormones, etc. farerri even indicated the ill effects of "factory" farming, "That's what happens when factory farming tries to cram as many animals as it can in the smallest space possible." But again thanks to the wonders of the free market you can actively seek out products without those. Animals for tens of millions of years were not getting artificial B12 shots. Even farreri used the term "bull$#@! supplements." You can choose a diet dependent on chemicals, and others can choose a diet that is a bit more natural.


YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO USE THIS MUCH COMMON SENSE IN A FARRERI THREAD!!11!!1!

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> You completely missed the main point in that video. (and if you didn't watch the whole thing, you missed a number of other important points.)  B12 isn't an animal product, it doesn't come from animals, it comes from bacteria found in soil or water.    
> 
> You're confusing B12 in and of itself, with places it can be found.   Why would you expect her to talk about sardines when she's a vegan? 
> 
> She didn't discuss the different types of B12 or all the places it can be found because that wasn't the point of the video.


well just fyi I was so fascinated by her ignorance that I had to watch the rest of the video last night... It doesnt matter if it comes from bacteria in soil or water... the synthetic B-12 is a fractionated version of the real B-12 found in nature. She has no clue about this and Im not blaming her really.. but its the reason why we can make really bad decisions based on what we think is really good information.

A vegan diet isnt sustainable if it needs supplementation. A pescetarian diet may be the healthiest diet one could have and I say that as someone who enjoys a steak once in a while but Im not sure most vegans would be flexible enough to give the same slack on their end.

----------


## lilymc

> well just fyi I was so fascinated by her ignorance that I had to watch the rest of the video last night... It doesnt matter if it comes from bacteria in soil or water... the synthetic B-12 is a fractionated version of the real B-12 found in nature. She has no clue about this and Im not blaming her really.. but its the reason why we can make really bad decisions based on what we think is really good information.
> 
> A vegan diet isnt sustainable if it needs supplementation. A pescetarian diet may be the healthiest diet one could have and I say that as someone who enjoys a steak once in a while but Im not sure most vegans would be flexible enough to give the same slack on their end.


You still don't get it, do you?

And again, she didn't even discuss the different types of B-12, so that's a straw man.

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> You still don't get it, do you?
> 
> And again, she didn't even discuss the different types of B-12, so that's a straw man.


No I guess I dont.. and likewise she doesnt get me. My point is that she is not even aware that there are different types of Vitamin B-12.

----------


## farreri

> I was referring to your comment, which I will repeat; potential disease causing animal product.


Yes I know and the bolded diseases in the list I posted are mainly or mostly caused by over consumption of animal products.

*Leading Causes of Death*
• *Heart disease*: 614,348
• *Cancer*: 591,699
• Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 147,101
• Accidents (unintentional injuries): 136,053
• *Stroke* (cerebrovascular diseases): 133,103
•* Alzheimer's disease*: 93,541
• *Diabetes*: 76,488
• Influenza and pneumonia: 55,227
• (*Kidney Disease*) Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 48,146
• Intentional self-harm (suicide): 42,773
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lead...s-of-death.htm[/QUOTE]





> There is no 'correct' diet. People from all over the world have grown old on all sorts of different diets and people have died young on exactly the same diets. There are some general things that inform us on what is potentially (very) unhealthy but there's nothing that's true in the absolute.


Cherry picking the few here in there is not how to conduct a scientific health study. You take population groups here and there and find out the percentage of different health aspects of that group compared to the other groups. Populations that were more plant based lived longer and healthier than population groups who ate more animal products. Sorry if that disappoints you.

----------


## donnay

> When I asked for evidence, I meant scientifically proven evidence, not someone's theory written on their personal website. Cyano B12 has been used for many many decades by doctors and over the counter. I think proof would have surfaced by now if it was actually causing problems.





> *Safety of Cyanocobalamin*
> 
> The safety of cyanocobalamin has raised concerns due to the fact that cyanide is a component of cyanocobalamin, and the cyanide molecule is removed from cyanocobalamin when used by the body's cells. Cyanide is also found in many fruits and vegetables and so humans are always ingesting small amounts of cyanide, and like in most fruits and vegetables, the amount of cyanide in cyanocobalamin is considered to be physiologically insignificant.
> 
> According to the European Food Safety Authority, "Data of from a Norwegian dietary survey show that the average and high (97.5th percentile) daily intake of [cyanide] among consumers amounts to respectively 95 and 372 micrograms/person or 1.4 and 5.4 micrograms/kg bw/day (7)." The amount of cyanide in a 1,000 microgram cyanocobalamin tablet is 20 micrograms.
> 
> Table 1 contains some additional numbers regarding cyanide amounts in cyanocobalamin for comparison purposes.


http://veganhealth.org/b12/toxicity




> *People Who Should Not Take the Cyanocobalamin Form of B12*
> 
> *Chronic Kidney Failure*
> 
> People with chronic kidney failure do not detoxify cyanide as well as people with healthy kidneys. It is thought that this may lead to nerve problems, especially in smokers (1). For this reason it is better for kidney patients to take a form of B12 other than cyanocobalamin. Koyama et al. (1) suggest that patients on hemodialysis receive 500 µg of methylcobalamin intravenously after each dialysis. Vegans with kidney disease, whether or not they are on dialysis, should take a non-cyanocobalamin form of B12. These patients should talk to their health professionals about how much should be taken. 1,000 µg (1 mg) of methylcobalamin or adenosylcobalamin per day might be adequate.
> 
> Cyanide Metabolism Defects
> 
> Cobalamin has a strong attraction to cyanide. While being a natural chemical produced in the body, cyanide is toxic, and the body turns it into thiocyanate in order to excrete it. If this pathway is defective or overwhelmed through ingestion of too much cyanide (such as in smokers, or people in Nigeria who eat large amounts of cassava which is high in cyanide), the body may detoxify the cyanide by attaching it to cobalamin and then excreting the cyanocobalamin. Leber's optic atrophy, tobacco-alcohol amblyopia, and other eye diseases can sometimes respond to high doses of hydroxocobalamin which serve to detoxify the cyanide. In these cases, there may be too much cyanide in the tissues (preventing conversion of cyanocobalamin to methylcobalamin or adenosylcobalamin) for cyanocobalamin supplements to be effective in maintaining B12 status (2). In such cases, a different form of B12 should be given (speak to your health professional) (3).
> ...


http://veganhealth.org/b12/nocyano

----------


## lilymc

> No I guess I dont.. and likewise she doesnt get me. My point is that she is not even aware that there are different types of Vitamin B-12.


Of course she is, that's common knowledge among health-conscious vegans like her.  It wasn't meant to be an exhaustive video on B12, she was just saying that B12 doesn't come from animals, they too get it from an outside source, and you don't have to eat animals to get it.  She also made the point that about 40 percent of people are B12 deficient, and only about two percent of the population is vegan, so obviously the problem is a general one, for all people.

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> Of course she is, that's common knowledge among health-conscious vegans like her.  It wasn't meant to be an exhaustive video on B12, she was just saying that B12 doesn't come from animals, they too get it from an outside source, and you don't have to eat animals to get it.  She also made the point that about 40 percent of people are B12 deficient, and only about two percent of the population is vegan, so obviously the problem is a general one, for all people.


If she were aware that there were other isomers of Vitamin B-12 then she would NEVER equate a synthetic B-12 with a natural form... Theres no way she understands. Most people just dont know. I think the reason traditional meat eaters are deficient is simply because they are eating sick animals.  The only valid point she made in her video IMO was the subject of soil depletion and that simply justifies the need to eat seafood. But look if shes a vegan and isnt going to eat animals and what shes doing works for her then great...

----------


## Ender

> farreri;6302870]Yes I know and the bolded diseases in the list I posted are mainly or mostly caused by over consumption of animal products.
> 
> *Leading Causes of Death*
> • *Heart disease*: 614,348
> • *Cancer*: 591,699
> • Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 147,101
> • Accidents (unintentional injuries): 136,053
> • *Stroke* (cerebrovascular diseases): 133,103
> •* Alzheimer's disease*: 93,541
> ...







> Cherry picking the few here in there is not how to conduct a scientific health study. You take population groups here and there and find out the percentage of different health aspects of that group compared to the other groups. Populations that were more plant based lived longer and healthier than population groups who ate more animal products. Sorry if that disappoints you.


The above is primarily about Blood Type A's who are the natural vegans. Blood Type O needs a Paleo Diet for maximum health.

----------


## lilymc

> If she were aware that there were other isomers of Vitamin B-12 then she would NEVER equate a synthetic B-12 with a natural form... Theres no way she understands. Most people just dont know. I think the reason traditional meat eaters are deficient is simply because they are eating sick animals.  The only valid point she made in her video IMO was the subject of soil depletion and that simply justifies the need to eat seafood. But look if shes a vegan and isnt going to eat animals and what shes doing works for her then great...


We're going in circles here, and by now I've had to repeat myself at least 5 times. Again, you are conflating B-12 itself with something that contains it...even though earlier you acknowledged that it comes from the soil or water.  So let's try to get on the same page, are you claiming that animals are the *only* place to get B-12, and B-12 that comes from anywhere else is not true B-12?   Because if that's your position, then you are going against what many doctors say, including non-vegan doctors.  I'm sorry, but I think you are believing myths that the meat  industry wants you to keep believing, so they can stay in business.

Or, if you were merely talking about a specific type of B-12 (like the one farreri takes) then that is a straw man, because the woman in the video never even commented on the different types.

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## Chester Copperpot

> We're going in circles here, and by now I've had to repeat myself at least 5 times. Again, you are conflating B-12 itself with something that contains it...even though earlier you acknowledged that it comes from the soil or water.  So let's try to get on the same page, are you claiming that animals are the *only* place to get B-12, and B-12 that comes from anywhere else is not true B-12?   Because if that's your position, then you are going against what many doctors say, including non-vegan doctors.  I'm sorry, but I think you are believing myths that the meat  industry wants you to keep believing, so they can stay in business.
> 
> Or, if you were merely talking about a specific type of B-12 (like the one farreri takes) then that is a straw man, because the woman in the video never even commented on the different types.


I personally dont know if it comes from soil or water... Im only saying that because that was the girls explanation in the video...
 Whether its true or not I dont know. 

Im merely stating the difference between a natural vitamin vs a synthetic one.. 

I am not aware of any plant sources for Vitamin B-12 - only animal sources. Whether its a synthetic type that farreri takes or a synthetic type given to an animal - both are equally bad and inferior to the natural vitamin in my opinion.  

Getting your B-12 from a natural source like  a pastured animal OR from sardines or other wild caught fish will result in a much more complete spectrum of vitamin B-12 isomers being absorbed even though these will not show up on typical blood tests because they are simply not tested for.

By "different types" of vitamin B-12 I do not mean different brands,,,  I mean different molecular structures. The isomers will contain the same ingedients yet be arranged in different orders and will have different effects on Vitamin B-12 receptors. Neither science nor medicine has an explanation for this.

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> The above is primarily about Blood Type A's who are the natural vegans. Blood Type O needs a Paleo Diet for maximum health.


I think ive asked you about that blood type diet in the past... do you have a link for that?? Id like to read about it

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## Ender

> I think ive asked you about that blood type diet in the past... do you have a link for that?? Id like to read about it


Here's the link to the author's site:

http://www.dadamo.com/

The book saved my blinkin' life.

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## Chester Copperpot

> Here's the link to the author's site:
> 
> http://www.dadamo.com/
> 
> The book saved my blinkin' life.


I remember you saying it saved your life.. Thats a pretty strong endorsement... The link has already been some fascinating reading,... Never thought about blood antigens being present in places like the digestive tract.  Which blood type were you? and can you tell us a little bit about your personal experience both before going on it and after you did?

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## Ender

> I remember you saying it saved your life.. Thats a pretty strong endorsement... The link has already been some fascinating reading,... Never thought about blood antigens being present in places like the digestive tract.  Which blood type were you? and can you tell us a little bit about your personal experience both before going on it and after you did?


I'm Type O- the original blood type that originally ate a natural Paleo diet.

I am a health nut and was raised in a family of health nuts. We make everything from scratch and from stuff as natural as we can find or grow. I'm a great cook- baked homemade bread from freshly ground wheat etc.

I spent my most of my life with a stomach-ache. Could never go to the bathroom- was actually told by a doctor that going poop every week or two was "natural". 

Finally, in my late teens, I went on a 3 month juice fast (I don't recommend this unless one is thoroughly prepared). As I was coming off of the fast, the only thing my body was craving was red meat, which I thought was "evil". 

I went to a local health food store to look into some herbs & right at the front table was the book: 4 Blood Types 4 Diets. I opened the book, went to Type O and read that red meat was like medicine to the body for O's - AND that wheat FLOUR was like poison to an O.

Bought the book, read it, applied the principles - never have had any more stomach aches, use the bathroom regularly, and am in great health.

I have seen some bashing of the book by a few so-called health centers, but all I can say is that it worked for me. It also made me realize why certain diets can make some people healthy and kill others.

Anyway- that's my experience.

I'd say get the book, try a few things for your blood type and see how you feel.

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> I'm Type O- the original blood type that originally ate a natural Paleo diet.
> 
> I am a health nut and was raised in a family of health nuts. We make everything from scratch and from stuff as natural as we can find or grow. I'm a great cook- baked homemade bread from freshly ground wheat etc.
> 
> I spent my most of my life with a stomach-ache. Could never go to the bathroom- was actually told by a doctor that going poop every week or two was "natural". 
> 
> Finally, in my late teens, I went on a 3 month juice fast (I don't recommend this unless one is thoroughly prepared). As I was coming off of the fast, the only thing my body was craving was red meat, which I thought was "evil". 
> 
> I went to a local health food store to look into some herbs & right at the front table was the book: 4 Blood Types 4 Diets. I opened the book, went to Type O and read that red meat was like medicine to the body for O's - AND that wheat FLOUR was like poison to an O.
> ...


cool.. so im guesing this is the book?


Yeah I think i will get a copy and check it out... I know when I did that 7 week vegan diet and came off it that I actually had an aversion to meat and didnt really want any but afterwards I was craving protein.. still am... I really want any kind of meat right about now.. but its just not something that I could swallow easily nor is it likely to taste good with my taste buds right now.. listening to one's body makes the most sense to me

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## Ender

> cool.. so im guesing this is the book?
> 
> 
> Yeah I think i will get a copy and check it out... I know when I did that 7 week vegan diet and came off it that I actually had an aversion to meat and didnt really want any but afterwards I was craving protein.. still am... I really want any kind of meat right about now.. but its just not something that I could swallow easily nor is it likely to taste good with my taste buds right now.. listening to one's body makes the most sense to me


That's the book- and I whole heartedly agree about listening to one's body. 

Keep me posted.

----------


## specsaregood

> cool.. so im guesing this is the book?
> 
> 
> Yeah I think i will get a copy and check it out... I know when I did that 7 week vegan diet and came off it that I actually had an aversion to meat and didnt really want any but afterwards I was craving protein.. still am... I really want any kind of meat right about now.. but its just not something that I could swallow easily nor is it likely to taste good with my taste buds right now.. listening to one's body makes the most sense to me


The book is a good read and he puts forward a decent case.  I'm O-type and the paleo/primal style of eating (which corresponds with the books recommendations) has worked excellently for me.   I know somebody with A-type and a more vegetarian style of eating works better for them (which also corresponds with the book).   That may just be anecdotal but it is what it is.

----------


## lilymc

> I personally dont know if it comes from soil or water... Im only saying that because that was the girls explanation in the video...
>  Whether its true or not I dont know. 
> 
> Im merely stating the difference between a natural vitamin vs a synthetic one.. 
> 
> I am not aware of any plant sources for Vitamin B-12 - only animal sources. Whether its a synthetic type that farreri takes or a synthetic type given to an animal - both are equally bad and inferior to the natural vitamin in my opinion.  
> 
> Getting your B-12 from a natural source like  a pastured animal OR from sardines or other wild caught fish will result in a much more complete spectrum of vitamin B-12 isomers being absorbed even though these will not show up on typical blood tests because they are simply not tested for.
> 
> By "different types" of vitamin B-12 I do not mean different brands,,,  I mean different molecular structures. The isomers will contain the same ingedients yet be arranged in different orders and will have different effects on Vitamin B-12 receptors. Neither science nor medicine has an explanation for this.


You misunderstood most of what I said, and you are still not grasping the basic point here. You are simply wrong,  you don't need to eat a dead animal to get actual B-12.  And as you might already know, if the animal was from a factory farm (which is where most meat comes from) then nowadays, many of THOSE animals are being injected with B-12, because the soil is depleted, so _most people are getting a B-12 supplement indirectly_, through the dead animal, which btw is causing other health problems that far outweigh any benefit from getting a tiny amount of B-12 from a supplemented dead cow.     

As the video said, you can cut out the middle man by just taking a supplement... which is what many doctors recommend, whether you're a meat eater or not.   There are other options too, but the bottom line is, your view that getting it from a dead animal is the only "natural" way is silly.  Those animals themselves got it from an outside source (including the "free range" ones who might get it from eating dirt with their food) so as was stated numerous times, it's not inherent to the animal, it comes from a bacteria.

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> You misunderstood most of what I said, and you are still not grasping the basic point here. You are simply wrong,  you don't need to eat a dead animal to get actual B-12.  And as you might already know, if the animal was from a factory farm (which is where most meat comes from) then nowadays, many of THOSE animals are being injected with B-12, because the soil is depleted, so _most people are getting a B-12 supplement indirectly_, through the dead animal, which btw is causing other health problems that far outweigh any benefit from getting a tiny amount of B-12 from a supplemented dead cow.     
> 
> As the video said, you can cut out the middle man by just taking a supplement... which is what many doctors recommend, whether you're a meat eater or not.   There are other options too, but the bottom line is, your view that getting it from a dead animal is the only "natural" way is silly.  Those animals themselves got it from an outside source (including the "free range" ones who might get it from eating dirt with their food) so as was stated numerous times, it's not inherent to the animal, it comes from a bacteria.


Then eat dirt. Im not aware that that is a viable option. For me not only do you need to eat dead animals but you need to make sure those animals had a natural diet so grassfed/pastured/wild caught. 

If  you can eat dirt and get it that way then go right ahead. Check your blood tests before.. Eat a bunch of dirt and dont take synthetics and then get another blood test and let me know how that works out.. Id be interested.. Who knows you might even be able to put the soil in capsules and sell it as a vegan alternative oh wait, if it comes from bacteria then theyre animals too so I guess that wont work but Id be curious to see research on this topic.. Id rather take a capsule of soil than some artificial pill or injection

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## lilymc

Bacteria are not animals, they are one-celled microorganisms, and I never suggested eating dirt (lol)  I said that is how many of the animals get it.

----------


## Natural Citizen

You all kind of lost me. What's the debate again?

----------


## Chester Copperpot

> You all kind of lost me. What's the debate again?


Im not sure tbh.. but i think she thinks im not understanding her claim that people ingesting synthetic vitamins thru dead animals is no better than just taking the synthetic vitamins themselves and I think shes not understanding my argument that both of those options suck and that people really need real vitamins thru real sources.

----------


## lilymc

LOL.  You misunderstood even what I said you were misunderstanding.  

But I can't continue right now... gotta go  make dinner.

----------


## Natural Citizen

> Im not sure tbh.. but i think she thinks im not understanding her claim that people ingesting synthetic vitamins thru dead animals is no better than just taking the synthetic vitamins themselves and I think shes not understanding my argument that both of those options suck and that people really need real vitamins thru real sources.


Ah. I got lost in what you all were debating. I do agree that it's best to get the proper nutrients naturally. Myself, I prefer food that is alive. Even lettuce I buy with a root on it and soaking in a weird kind of container with water. Heh. 

There's a lot of foods that haven't been mentioned here aside from meat. I mean, there are mushrooms that are loaded with all of the B vitamins.

----------


## Natural Citizen

These kinds of discussion I hate. Mainly because I agree with aspects of both sides of the debate. But they're interesting. I still eat meat. And I'm very particular what meat I eat. At the same time, though, I actually prefer cooked and raw vegetables and fruits. I grew up eating out of the garden, woods, and the river. And didn't even drink tap water until around 20 years old. We drank from the spring coming out of the nmountain there.

----------


## farreri

> These kinds of discussion I hate. Mainly because I agree with aspects of both sides of the debate. But they're interesting. I still eat meat. And I'm very particular what meat I eat.


Just don't eat too much of it and you'll be fine.  And take a B12.

----------


## farreri

> Finally, in my late teens, I went on a 3 month juice fast (I don't recommend this unless one is thoroughly prepared). As I was coming off of the fast, the only thing my body was craving was red meat, which I thought was "evil".


What else would you expect your body to crave after 3 months of starving yourself? Your starved body will start craving the most calorie dense foods.




> I went to a local health food store to look into some herbs & right at the front table was the book: 4 Blood Types 4 Diets. I opened the book, went to Type O and read that red meat was like medicine to the body for O's - AND that wheat FLOUR was like poison to an O.
> 
> Bought the book, read it, applied the principles - never have had any more stomach aches, use the bathroom regularly, and am in great health.


Did you rule out a wheat allergy, like celiac disease?

----------


## Ender

> What else would you expect your body to crave after 3 months of starving yourself? Your starved body will start craving the most calorie dense foods.
> 
> 
> Did you rule out a wheat allergy, like celiac disease?


I didn't starve myself- juice fasts are cleansers- you don't starve.

AND I'm not allergic to wheat- just can't eat wheat FLOUR as it turns into glue in my body.

----------


## farreri

> I didn't starve myself- juice fasts are cleansers- you don't starve.


That statement reminds me of this commercial:







> AND I'm not allergic to wheat- just can't eat wheat FLOUR as it turns into glue in my body.


What about whole wheat flour? Rice? Oats? Corn?

----------


## farreri

> We are designed to eat meat. So *you have to supplement quite a bit* to make up for not eating meat.


Exactly what would you need to supplement with and how much to make up for not eating meat?




> [Vegetarian] is better than [Vegan] though since you still get protein and such from dairy.


Where do cows get their protein?

----------


## farreri

Bump for JFKIII

----------

