# Liberty Movement > Defenders of Liberty > Justin Amash Forum >  Amash: Trump violating our constitutional system with wall order

## Brian4Liberty

Amash: Trump violating our constitutional system with wall order







> Rep. Justin Amash (R-MI) tells CNN's Jake Tapper why he opposes President Donald Trump's declaration of a national emergency at the southern border.

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## Brian4Liberty

Amash: “If there were an emergency...there would be a lot more consensus.”




> I’m sure I’ve missed all kinds of stimulating debate on the subject, but these “National Emergencies” declared by the President should be unconstitutional. When we have these edicts outstanding for decades, they are not emergencies in any sense of the word. They are policy with the weight of law. True emergencies should be like war, with a declaration from Congress.
> 
> If this goes to the Supreme Court, the best outcome would be to rule the entire concept unconstitutional, and declare all outstanding POTUS declared “national emergencies” null and void.
> 
> How much leeway the executive branch has to move around funds and fulfill it’s duty as the executive branch may be debatable, but this “emergency declaration” power should definitely lie with Congress, not the POTUS.

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## The Rebel Poet

Amash is one of the best. Glad there are still conservatives in there.

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## PAF

> Amash is one of the best. Glad there are still conservatives in there.



+ Post + Agree + Rep

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## Swordsmyth

> Amash: “If there were an emergency...there would be a lot more consensus.”


LOL

One side is causing the emergency on purpose.

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## Swordsmyth

Although Amash claims to doggedly oppose Trump due to his  constitutional bonafides, he was conspicuously silent during the ten  occasions in which President Barack Hussein Obama declared emergency  measures while Amash served in the U.S. House.

The Brennan Center of Justice has compiled a list  of 59 separate national emergencies that were declared by different  presidents from 1978-2018. Obama declared national emergencies in many  dubious instances such as to facilitate illicit foreign interventions in  Libya and Ukraine  – two measures that should be particularly important for a  liberty-minded Republican to oppose. Amash was quiet about these  declarations made by Obama when his opposition wouldn’t earn him mainstream media praise.
 Amash’s gadfly status and willingness to work against Republicans such as President Trump has earned him a great deal of praise  from the liberal media. Michelle Richardson, who works as legislative  counsel at the American Civil Liberties Union, refers to Amash as “a  game-changer.” After using his connections to the establishment DeVos  family that rules the roost in West Michigan to get into the state  legislature, he capitalized on the Ron Paul revolution to become a  national legislator inheriting much of the former Texas Congressman’s  cult following. In the age of Trump, Amash has re-invented himself into  the Jeff Flake of the House who is even open to Democrat-led efforts of impeachment.
 Amash also received liberal acclaim when he helped vote down an amendment  in 2017 stating that “[f]unds available to the Department of Defense  may not be used to provide medical treatment (other than mental health  treatment) related to gender transition to a person entitled to medical  care.” In this instance, Amash showed that he will abandon his free  market principles when it comes time to virtue-signal for leftists.
 “Those who serve in our Armed Forces deserve the best medical care.  One question we must ask and answer, with the aid of the medical  community, is which treatments are medically necessary and which are  simply elective. With respect to transgender persons, we should focus on  the best science, not the political or philosophical opinions of  partisans,” Amash said at the time.

More at: https://bigleaguepolitics.com/justin...n-emergencies/

He also played collaborator with the Russiagate witch hunters at the Cohen hearing.

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## PAF

@Swordsmyth


Ron Paul cult:

Justin Amash Cumulative Freedom Index Score: 94%

Justin, Rand, Tom - the 3 Amigos, we need more like them and less shills :-)

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## Swordsmyth

> @Swordsmyth
> 
> 
> Ron Paul cult:
> 
> Justin Amash Cumulative Freedom Index Score: 94%
> 
> Justin, Rand, Tom - the 3 Amigos, we need more like them and less shills :-)


Amash does have a great record but he takes the wrong side at the weirdest times, I have said that before and I will say it again if he manages to keep his seat.

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## CaptUSA

> ***Thread PSA***
> 
> *Swordsmyth is a paid government troll sent to RPF to sow discord and division within the liberty movement.  Those posts are not meant to be taken seriously.  The content of those posts is irrelevant. For more information on RPF interlopers, please visit http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...48#post6759548"



Amash is one of the best we've got!  Principle sure is refreshing!

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## PAF

> **Thread PSA**
> 
> *Swordsmyth is a paid government troll sent to RPF to sow discord and division within the liberty movement. Those posts are not meant to be taken seriously. The content of those posts is irrelevant. For more information on RPF interlopers, please visit
> 
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...48#post6759548






> Amash is one of the best we've got!  Principle sure is refreshing!


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to CaptUSA again.

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## Superfluous Man

> Although Amash claims to doggedly oppose Trump due to his  constitutional bonafides, he was conspicuously silent during the ten  occasions in which President Barack Hussein Obama declared emergency  measures while Amash served in the U.S. House.


Source?

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## invisible

> LOL
> 
> One side is causing the emergency on purpose.





> Amash does have a great record but he takes the wrong side at the weirdest times, I have said that before and I will say it again if he manages to keep his seat.


Just like Ron Paul, Amash must be one of those people who is wrong an awful lot.  But your Authoritarian Idol always gets it right!

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## Swordsmyth

> Just like Ron Paul, Amash must be one of those people who is wrong an awful lot.  But your Authoritarian Idol always gets it right!


Neither one is wrong very often and Trump is wrong far more often, I have always said those things.

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## PAF

> Neither one is wrong very often and Trump is wrong far more often, I have always said those things.


The first article response you posted in this thread equated Justin who has a 94% Freedom Score, to Jeff Flake.

Telling, indeed.

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## Swordsmyth

> The first article response you posted in this thread equated Justin who has a 94% Freedom Score, to Jeff Flake.
> 
> Telling, indeed.


Flake once had a pretty good record and it made the comparison about being anti-Trump in order to receive praise from the liberal media which is appropriate.

In addition, I am not responsible for every word in a an article I didn't write.

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## invisible

> Neither one is wrong very often and Trump is wrong far more often, I have always said those things.


Yes, those rare exceptions are all too common, as you admit.  But if your Authoritarian Idol is wrong more often than Ron Paul or anyone else advocating for Freedom, then that should therefore be reflected in your posts, rather than 30 plus posts a day trumpetting his policies and attempting to demonize various groups of people.

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## CCTelander

> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to CaptUSA again.



Covered.

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## kahless

This is so sad watching liberty candidates like Amash destroy themselves and advocate against a policy that provides a path for future liberty candidates to get elected.

The future of individual liberty in the US looks bleak since leaders in the libertarian movement are blind to the fact you cannot grow the philosophy with an open border.

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## Swordsmyth

> Yes, those rare exceptions are all too common, as you admit.  But if your Authoritarian Idol is wrong more often than Ron Paul or anyone else advocating for Freedom, then that should therefore be reflected in your posts, rather than 30 plus posts a day trumpetting his policies and attempting to demonize various groups of people.


Trump is President, Ron and Amash are not, therefore there are many more stories about Trump than Ron or Amash.

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## Valli6

> *Justin Amash Pushes to Block Trump’s Emergency Measures, But Stayed Quiet During Obama’s Ten Emergencies*
> Feb 25, 2019
> By *Shane Trejo*
> https://bigleaguepolitics.com/justin...en-emergencies


I can't recall the circumstances, but I find it very difficult to believe that Amash went along with interventions in Libya and Ukraine quietly, let alone specifically voted in favor of them.



> Obama declared national emergencies in many dubious instances such as to facilitate illicit foreign interventions in Libya and Ukraine... Amash was quiet about these declarations made by Obama when his opposition wouldn’t earn him mainstream media praise.


This part sounds as if it they slipped Amash's and Trump's names into an old story about Ron Paul.



> Amash’s gadfly status and willingness to work against Republicans such as President Trump has earned him a great deal of praise from the liberal media...


_Who_ is "the establishment DeVos family"? I felt his connection to Ron Paul is what got him elected. Oh - and love the ancient insult about Ron Paul supporters being a "cult following"! 



> After using his connections to the establishment DeVos family that rules the roost in West Michigan to get into the state legislature, he capitalized on the Ron Paul revolution to become a national legislator inheriting much of the former Texas Congressman’s cult following...


Sounds as if the Cheneys already have someone picked out.



> Much of Amash’s following, in his home state of Michigan or elsewhere, is quickly waning as more Republicans are demanding a primary challenger against him in 2020.


Who are they lining up to oppose him?

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## Origanalist

> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to CaptUSA again.


Got it.

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## AngryCanadian

So Amash is in favor of open borders?

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## Schifference

If Trump were never elected the majority would still be hoodwinked and bamboozled.

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## The Rebel Poet

> This is so sad watching liberty candidates like Amash destroy themselves and advocate against a policy that provides a path for future liberty candidates to get elected.
> 
> The future of individual liberty in the US looks bleak since leaders in the libertarian movement are blind to the fact you cannot grow the philosophy with an open border.


You guys are jumping the shark. Just because he is against _how_ Trump is aquiring funds, doesn't make him "open borders."
  @Bryan can we get a site rule against lying about site-endorsed candidates?

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## specsaregood

> You guys are jumping the shark. Just because he is against _how_ Trump is aquiring funds, doesn't make him "open borders."
>   @Bryan can we get a site rule against lying about site-endorsed candidates?


If the money is not earmarked by congress, is it not up to the executive branch to decide how it is spent?   This was the exact argument that Ron Paul used in favor of earmarks for years.

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## specsaregood

> The first article response you posted in this thread *equated Justin who has a 94% Freedom Score, to Jeff Flake.*
> Telling, indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Swordsmyth
> 
> ...



Jeff Flake Freedom Index: *94% (111th Congress: 2009-2010); 
*

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## The Rebel Poet

> If the money is not earmarked by congress, is it not up to the executive branch to decide how it is spent?   This was the exact argument that Ron Paul used in favor of earmarks for years.


This is not relevant to her lie that Amash supports "open borders." You can disagree with Amash's interpretation of the law, but that doesn't make him open borders. I will paraphrase Bastiat: "Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between how and what. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government in a certain way, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all."

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## specsaregood

> This is not relevant to her lie that Amash supports "open borders." You can disagree with Amash's interpretation of the law, but that doesn't make him open borders. I will paraphrase Bastiat: "Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between how and what. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government in a certain way, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all."


I didn't really say it was.  Are you sure he isn't open borders?  Many libertarians are.   I can't watch the video, do you have him on record saying he is not for open borders?  And what does "open borders" even mean?  does it mean no country?  Or a country with no actual defense of its border?

My issue is with claiming Trumps actions are unconstitutional.  I don't think Trump even needs to declare an "emergency" he can just build the wall with allocated, but unearmarked funds in the defense budget.

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## Superfluous Man

> So Amash is in favor of open borders?


This is the logic of the immigration restrictionists. If someone does not support the restriction of immigration, and support it via whatever means they consider necessary for it, then that means they are for open borders, and if they are for open borders, then they are for no borders at all, and if they are for no borders at all, then they are against national sovereignty, and if they are against national sovereignty, then they are against having a country at all.

Given that logic, they on the one hand draw conclusions like yours, and then on the other hand, when they see Ron Paul say that he's not for totally open borders, run off to draw wild conclusions about how he must support the kind of immigration restrictionism they do.

The proliferation of this kind of vacuousness made up the bulk of the wave that Trump rode to the White House.

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## specsaregood

> This is the logic of the immigration restrictionists. If someone does not support the restriction of immigration, and support it via whatever means they consider necessary for it, then that means they are for open borders, and if they are for open borders, then they are for no borders at all, and if they are for no borders at all, then they are against national sovereignty, and if they are against national sovereignty, then they are against having a country at all.
> 
> Given that logic, they on the one hand draw conclusions like yours, and then on the other hand, when they see Ron Paul say that he's not for totally open borders, run off to draw wild conclusions about how he must support the kind of immigration restrictionism they do.
> 
> It proliferation of this kind of vacuousness made up the bulk of the wave that Trump rode to the White House.


Can you give a citation where Amash specifically says he is not for "open borders" and defines what "open borders" means to him?  TIA

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## The Rebel Poet

> I didn't really say it was.  Are you sure he isn't open borders?  Many libertarians are.   I can't watch the video, do you have him on record saying he is not for open borders?  And what does "open borders" even mean?  does it mean no country?  Or a country with no actual defense of its border?
> 
> My issue is with claiming Trumps actions are unconstitutional.  I don't think Trump even needs to declare an "emergency" he can just build the wall with allocated, but unearmarked funds in the defense budget.


https://amash.house.gov/press-releas...ul-immigration
"1) Ensuring the security of our borders, including both our physical borders and the “virtual” border of visa overstays (which account for almost half of our current illegal immigrant population) with such security acting as a pre-requisite or “trigger” for other reforms;"

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## Superfluous Man

> Can you give a citation where Amash specifically says he is not for "open borders" and defines what "open borders" means to him?  TIA


No. But I can make the simple observation that nothing in the OP supports the conclusion, "So Amash is for open borders."

I don't have any problem with saying that he is if it's defensible based on what he actually does say elsewhere, or for saying that Ron Paul is either, given the policies that Ron Paul supports. But I note that in spite of supporting policies that immigration restrictionists would call "open borders," Ron Paul describes his own position as not being for open borders, and those same immigration restrictionists cling to quotes like that as if they overturn the specifics of the actual policies he supports. This all points to the flexibility of the phrase "open borders" along with other phrases like "border security," and the ways immigration restrictionists constantly misuse them to label people in precisely the ways I described.

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## specsaregood

> https://amash.house.gov/press-releas...ul-immigration
> "1) Ensuring the security of our borders, including both our physical borders and the “virtual” border of visa overstays (which account for almost half of our current illegal immigrant population) with such security acting as a pre-requisite or “trigger” for other reforms;"


Thanks,  it appears that Amash is NOT "open borders".  I think it was a reasonable question since he identifies as libertarian.
edit: meant not

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## Ender

> Thanks,  it appears that Amash is "open borders".  I think it was a reasonable question since he identifies as libertarian.


Amash is not for "open borders" in the way it is currently used against anyone disagreeing with haters on the forum.

He is for reasonable laws and ways to secure the border but also acknowledging the strength in good immigration. Here's a letter to Rand Paul on this very thing. Massie is also a signer on this letter.




> Senator Paul, 
> 
> We write to offer you our support, encouragement and assistance as we work together to identify the principles that must guide our nations thinking on immigration reform.
> 
> You noted Tuesday in your remarks to the U.S. Hispanic Chamber of Commerce that somewhere along the line, Republicans have failed to understand and articulate that immigrants are an asset to America, not a liability, and that the Republican Party must embrace more legal immigration.  We wholeheartedly agree  and stand alongside you in your efforts. We believe you put it best when you said, Immigration reform will not occur until Conservative Republicans become part of the solution.
> 
> While we recognize that many details and specific proposals will need to be worked out, we want you to know that we support what we see as the three-legged stool of systemic immigration reform: 
> 
> 1) Ensuring the security of our borders, including both our physical borders and the virtual border of visa overstays (which account for almost half of our current illegal immigrant population) with such security acting as a pre-requisite or trigger for other reforms;
> ...


https://amash.house.gov/press-releas...ul-immigration

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## Cleaner44

I suppose an emergency is in the eye of the beholder.

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## Ender

> I suppose an emergency is in the eye of the beholder.


Here's Ron Paul on the unconstitutional emergency order.




> *Emergencies Do Not Trump the Constitution*
> By Ron Paul
> 
> Ron Paul Institute
> 
> February 26, 2019
> 
> After Congress rejected President Trump’s request for 5.7 billion dollars for the border wall, the president declared a national emergency at the southern border. Present Trump claims this “emergency” gives him the authority to divert funds appropriated for other purposes to building the border wall.
> 
> ...

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## Zippyjuan

> You guys are jumping the shark. Just because he is against _how_ Trump is aquiring funds, doesn't make him "open borders."
>   @Bryan can we get a site rule against lying about site-endorsed candidates?


According to some, anything less than a 100% sealed border (a physical impossibility) is supporting "open borders".  Ron and Rand Paul must be for "open borders". It is a phrase used for anybody opposed to spending billions more on what we already have.  As Bush used to like to say, "either you are for us or you support the terrorists!"

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## Cleaner44

> Here's Ron Paul on the unconstitutional emergency order.


I wonder if the same case could be made for all emergency orders. When a hurricane hits and a state of emergency is declared, bringing with it massive funding not appropriated by Congress, is that constitutional? We know that the majority of what the people in DC do is unconstitutional... but nobody gives a crap. These government workers swear an oath to uphold the constitution and then with in minutes are ready willing and able to ignore it. 

Hell we have people sitting on the supreme court that don't believe in our constitution. (I'm looking at you Ginsburg)

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## Brian4Liberty

> Amash is not for "open borders" in the way it is currently used against anyone disagreeing with haters on the forum.
> 
> He is for reasonable laws and ways to secure the border but also acknowledging the strength in good immigration. Here's a letter to Rand Paul on this very thing. Massie is also a signer on this letter.
> 
> 
> https://amash.house.gov/press-releas...ul-immigration


I would just note that letter is from 2013, when Obama was POTUS. A lot of water under the bridge since then. I doubt Amash has changed his mind, but someone like Meadows might not sign it today.

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## Ender

> I would just note that letter is from 2013, when Obama was POTUS. A lot of water under the bridge since then. I doubt Amash has changed his mind, but someone like Meadows might not sign it today.


I'm sure Amash has not changed his mind- the letter is on his website for all to peruse.

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## Superfluous Man

> When a hurricane hits and a state of emergency is declared, bringing with it massive funding not appropriated by Congress, is that constitutional?


Can you find an example of that ever happening?

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