# Lifestyles & Discussion > Bitcoin / Cryptocurrencies >  Are BitCoins a good investment? Why or why not?

## Omphfullas Zamboni

I'm thinking about throwing down some $ for these BitCoins. Have I gone crazy?

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## ihsv

It's your loot.  If you're not sure what to do with it, send it to me and I'll keep it for you

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## kah13176

What happens if there's a server crash?  Think of what just happened to Sony's Playstation Network.  Big companies aren't invincible.

What happens if the SHTF?  Who wants some bytes on a hard drive?  

Maybe I just don't know enough about bitcoins...

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## Omphfullas Zamboni

Hah. Fat chance, Buster! :-) Anyway, does anybody know where I can see a chart of the price of these coins over the last few months?




> It's your loot. If you're not sure what to do with it, send it to me and I'll keep it for you

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## steve005

if the power goes out at least my silver wont disappear

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## Indy Vidual

> if the power goes out at least my silver wont disappear




Why do you make a negative comment when you don't know the facts?  



*Are BitCoins a good investment? Why or why not?*

Maybe:
This post is (now) 1 day old, the current price is similar:

When I first saw Bitcoins they were at $0.05/btc  ~5 cents each
They had recently increased ~10x up from $0.0045 / less than 1/2 a penny each

I didn't buy any since they were up 10x they "looked a bit too high"

Today:Last Price: $5.70/btc High:5.99   ...Volume: 56299

In a little over a year, Bitcoins have increased over *1,200x* (not 1,200%, over 1,200 times)
The increase is *over 120,000%* 

An investment of $10,000 would be worth over *$12,000,000* today.
I think that math is ~ correct, let me know if I'm wrong.


....
_So is it too late?_
Probably not, I don't own any yet and wish I'd bought over a year ago.
More info is easy to find...

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## psi2941

i don't care what people say and how its impossible to hack these coins. but i'm 100% somewhere down the road someone will manage to think of something ingenious to make more bitcoins. like fake bitcoins. software and codes can be rewritten.

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## Indy Vidual

> i don't care what people say and how its impossible to hack these coins. but i'm 100% somewhere down the road someone will manage to think of something ingenious to make more bitcoins. like fake bitcoins. software and codes can be rewritten.


Wrong, here is why:
Modern cryptography follows a strongly scientific approach, and designs cryptographic algorithms around computational hardness assumptions, making such algorithms hard to break by an adversary. Such systems are not unbreakable in theory but it is infeasible to do so by any practical means. *These schemes are therefore computationally secure*.

^^^
The above quote proves why a major part of the *Bitcoin tech is secure.* 
For the rest of the details, you could either learn more, or understand that a whole bunch of _"really smart Geeks"_ have already decide they are secure.

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## psi2941

> Wrong, here is why:
> Modern cryptography follows a strongly scientific approach, and designs cryptographic algorithms around computational hardness assumptions, making such algorithms hard to break by an adversary. Such systems are not unbreakable in theory but it is infeasible to do so by any practical means. *These schemes are therefore computationally secure*.
> 
> ^^^
> The above quote proves why a major part of the *Bitcoin tech is secure.* 
> For the rest of the details, you could either learn more, or understand that a whole bunch of _"really smart Geeks"_ have already decide they are secure.


if you think ur little bitcoin will be "secured" because its "computationally secure" then ur really naive. once bitcoins are started to be worth anything you will have 7 billion people taking a crack at it and trust me, they will find one weak point.

EDIT: you have people all the time hacking into banks and sony for "fun" you don't think they will try to mess with bitcoins if they were accepted anywhere useful?

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## hazek

> Hah. Fat chance, Buster! :-) Anyway, does anybody know where I can see a chart of the price of these coins over the last few months?


http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/

also my other bookmarks that I have on bitcoin:
http://bitcoinwatch.com/
http://bitcoinmonitor.com/
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Main_Page
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Category:Technical
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Anonymity
https://clearcoin.appspot.com/
http://freebitcoins.appspot.com/
http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/
https://www.bitcoinmarket.com/
http://coinpal.ndrix.com/
http://coincard.ndrix.com/
http://tradebitcoin.com/
https://mtgox.com/
http://bitcoin-otc.com/
https://bitmarket.eu/main/lang/en
https://btcex.com/site/index/type/value
https://www.bitcoinusa.com/
http://btcnearme.com/
http://glbse.com/
http://ubitex.org/
https://www.meubitcoin.com.br/
https://www.bitcoin2cc.com/
http://www.bitcoinmail.com/
https://clearcoin.appspot.com/
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Units
http://bitcoin-contact.org/
http://deepbit.net/
http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php
http://www.bitcoinmoney.com/
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=https:...ts/bitcoin.kml

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## hazek

> if you think ur little bitcoin will be "secured" because its "computationally secure" then ur really naive. once bitcoins are started to be worth anything you will have 7 billion people taking a crack at it and trust me, they will find one weak point.
> 
> EDIT: you have people all the time hacking into banks and sony for "fun" you don't think they will try to mess with bitcoins if they were accepted anywhere useful?


I'll try to put this kindly. You sir have no clue what you are talking about. Please stop spreading your laymen beliefs and rather research the thing. Thank you.

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## Indy Vidual

> if you think ur little bitcoin will be "secured" because its "computationally secure" then ur really naive. once bitcoins are started to be worth anything you will have 7 billion people taking a crack at it and trust me, they will find one weak point.
> 
> EDIT: you have people all the time hacking into banks and sony for "fun" you don't think they will try to mess with bitcoins if they were accepted anywhere useful?


If a weak point is found it will be in no way related to your clearly naive and completely uniformed examples.


_...once bitcoins are started to be worth anything..._
That point has been passed already; Have you even read the other posts?

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## steve005

> •Why do you make a negative comment when you don't know the facts?


how is what I say negative? negativity is bad I agree, but not ignoring it, like the fact I stated, so what happens if/when the grid goes down? or more likely(but only a little) they'll be hacked





> you have people all the time hacking into banks and sony for "fun" you don't think they will try to mess with bitcoins if they were accepted anywhere useful?


yes, without a doubt, if they haven't already

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## Elwar

The worst thing I can see happening to bitcoin is bitcoin2.0...whatever that may be.

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## ClayTrainor

Im considering putting some money into this as well.

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## Jordan

I really thought that above anyone else gold and silver buyers would be all over Bitcoin.  Color me surprised to see that isn't the case...err, at least not at RPF.

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## LibertyRevolution

> In a little over a year, Bitcoins have increased over *1,200x* (not 1,200%, over 1,200 times)
> The increase is *over 120,000%*  An investment of $10,000 would be worth over *$12,000,000* today.
> I think that math is ~ correct, let me know if I'm wrong.


And where exactly could you cash out that $12,000,000?

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## hazek

> I really thought that above anyone else gold and silver buyers would be all over Bitcoin.  Color me surprised to see that isn't the case...err, at least not at RPF.


I think the reason is most of those guys lack the technical literacy to be able to fully understand how Bitcoin works and how it's protected against various attacks ect.

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## hazek

> And where exactly could you cash out that $12,000,000?


http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/
http://btcnearme.com/
http://ubitex.org/

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## LibertyRevolution

oh sure, I have to find a buyer for my bitcoins...Screw that, you can keep your bitcoins.

So let me make sure I got this right, bitcoins are created out of thin air by people running mining programs.
So, they are made for free, so they have no value what so ever.

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## Freedom 4 all

The US government could declare this $#@! illegal and shut it down fairly easy with no reimbursements, whereas they actually have to go to your bank/wall safe if they want to steal your gold or silver.

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## hazek

> oh sure, I have to find a buyer for my bitcoins...Screw that, you can keep your bitcoins.
> 
> So let me make sure I got this right, bitcoins are created out of thin air by people running mining programs.
> So, they are made for free, so they have no value what so ever.


*In your opinion.*

_In my opinion_ they have value because they are a secure decentralized digital currency which no one can print more of out of thin air, is limited in supply where there will never be more than 21mio of it in existence, it can be safely stored in a small data chip no matter the amount, it can be easily transferred around the globe in a few seconds no mater the amount and at almost no costs and although keeping a public record of every single transaction that ever happened and will happen and anyone can always check, it also allows pseudoanonymity with the proper precautions.

If all of these features of a currency mean nothing to you that's fine. Your or mine is irrelevant. Even my opinion is irrelevant. What is relevant is what the market thinks and obviously since there were a $1mio dollars worth of Bitcoins traded in the past 30days on the most popular exchange the market obviously does value them.

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## hazek

> The US government could declare this $#@! illegal and shut it down fairly easy with no reimbursements, whereas they actually have to go to your bank/wall safe if they want to steal your gold or silver.


The only way for them to shutdown the Bitcoin network is if they find and remove every single user on the network which is soon if not already going to be impossible or if they turn of the internet across the globe. I don't know about you, but I'd really like to see them try. They did with torrents of illegal content and failed.

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## Jordan

Bitcoin is an anonymous competing currency, one that inflates only to a degree, and only for a pre-determined period of time before it becomes forever deflationary.  And yet, RPF doesn't like it.

Hazek, to be truthful, bitcoin is too technical.  I hope that they do find a way to make it easier for the average non-techy person to use it, not because I necessarily want to, but because this is, to me, a very interesting concept.  That said, you're wasting your time here.  This is the gold and silver forum; "Economics" extends only to one economic thought, and "Sound Money" can only be that which is dug out of the ground.

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## hazek

Yeah I understand this audiences shortcomings will probably inhibit them from even comprehending what exactly they have here. But even so I want to talk about it so I can spread the info. That's my only goal really. I don't want anyone to buy anything I just want them to learn all the facts about it and make up their own mind, that's all.

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## psi2941

> Yeah I understand this audiences shortcomings will probably inhibit them from even comprehending what exactly they have here. But even so I want to talk about it so I can spread the info. That's my only goal really. I don't want anyone to buy anything I just want them to learn all the facts about it and make up their own mind, that's all.


we can't comprehend some digital currency that some geek made up? your bittrash is another form FRN, for all i know bittrash is made by the FRN.

secondly as for sound money, you do need a money supply that grows with population growth. you think 21mill bittrash is going to satisfy the 7-8 trillion people we have in the world? so what a bread is going to cost .000000001 bittrash? as for gold and silver, new supply is continually added into the supply. 

so once, lets say bit  trash takes off and its noticed we need more trash bins, so then bittrash 2.0 is going to come out taking over 1.0, this implies the bit trash is modifiable and open to unknown attacks.

and yes the government can shut you down. they don't have to find every bitcoin file per say but if they ban the use of bitcoins at the supermarket, gas stations, banks, etc.... you can kiss your bittrash in the trash bin, or what if they make a virus that just hunts down bit trash files and they embedded the virus into windows 7?

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## hazek

> we can't comprehend some digital currency that some geek made up? your bittrash is another form FRN, for all i know bittrash is made by the FRN.
> 
> secondly as for sound money, you do need a money supply that grows with population growth. you think 21mill bittrash is going to satisfy the 7-8 trillion people we have in the world? so what a bread is going to cost .000000001 bittrash? as for gold and silver, new supply is continually added into the supply. 
> and yes the government can shut you down. they don't have to find every bitcoin file per say but if they ban the use of bitcoins at the supermarket, gas stations, banks, etc.... you can kiss your bittrash in the trash bin.


Oh the ignorance..

First it's an open source project. Do you understand this form licensing? Let me explain: It means that every single line of the code that's part of the Bitcoin client is public and available for review by ANYONE. Why do you think people are willing to pay $8 per 1 Bitcoin?

Second of all I think you win the argument about government making it illegal as soon as you look at the drug war. Obviously no one is selling or buying drugs because of it's laws. Oh wait? 

And again, even your *opinion* is irrelevant. The only opinion that is relevant is what the market thinks. And I'm sorry to burst your bubble but you are not smart enough to even begin to speculate what the market thinks and will or will not find use for.

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## My First Name Is Paul

> if you think ur little bitcoin will be "secured" because its "computationally secure" then ur really naive. once bitcoins are started to be worth anything you will have 7 billion people taking a crack at it and trust me, they will find one weak point.
> 
> EDIT: you have people all the time hacking into banks and sony for "fun" you don't think they will try to mess with bitcoins if they were accepted anywhere useful?


I'm not arguing that bitcoins are a good investment, but the same claim can be made regarding the synthesizing of gold or silver.

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## DailyLiberty

> secondly as for sound money, you do need a money supply that grows with population growth. you think 21mill bittrash is going to satisfy the 7-8 trillion people we have in the world? so what a bread is going to cost .000000001 bittrash? as for gold and silver, new supply is continually added into the supply.


I for one do not own any bitcoins, but this comment leads me to believe that you dont really understand them.  Here is my point:

You make the argument here that at sometime in the future, when no more bitcoins are being made, that a loaf of bread is going to cost .00000001 bitcoins and these isnt going to work.  From my understanding, since bitcoins are easily divisible (by simply shifting a decimal point in your transaction) that this will never actually be a problem.  There is nothing to stop the price of bread from having an infinite number of 0's after the decimal point.  As far as I am concerned, this is an asset, not a problem.  Any good currency is easily dividable and transportable.  That is part of the reason why gold is such a good currency.

You seem to be making this debate between bitcoins and gold.  That is not the case.  While I think gold will forever be the ultimate currency, bitcoins seem to be a great option if you are looking to diversify . . . in case the government decides to confiscate all our gold again.

Thats just my two bitcoins . . . hehe.

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## psi2941

> Oh the ignorance..
> 
> First it's an open source project. Do you understand this form licensing? Let me explain: It means that every single line of the code that's part of the Bitcoin client is public and available for review by ANYONE. Why do you think people are willing to pay $8 per 1 Bitcoin?


so therefor its unhackable, modifiable, and tamperproof?



> Second of all I think you win the argument about government making it illegal as soon as you look at the drug war. Obviously no one is selling or buying drugs because of it's laws. Oh wait?


your comparing the drug war vs bit coins.... you think if the government banned bitcoins, do you think it will become the main stream? if your answer is yes, this is my last reply because my "ignorance" is nowhere near yours. the point of money is so every one can use it, not to be a the second class, if people have to worry about getting fined using bitcoins to buy something it will greatly reduce the popularity. so why would people bother when something more simpler and easier is already available like gold. 



> And again, even your *opinion* is irrelevant. The only opinion that is relevant is what the market thinks. And I'm sorry to burst your bubble but you are not smart enough to even begin to speculate what the market thinks and will or will not find use for.


agreed, so lets end it here. if bitcoins works out, hey you will more wealthily then me but stop pumping bitcoins on this forms (without giving the risk) you can do it here http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php




> I'm not arguing that bitcoins are a good investment, but the same claim can be made regarding the synthesizing of gold or silver.


not possible, since gold and silver is an element. but once we do figure out how to do it, then don't worry no one has to work anymore because that means we can also make food and energy out of thin air. we will live like star trek where everyone works for the good of humanity 

EDIT: side note, i don't support silver or gold all the way, i think after everything is said and done, gold and silver is going to end up in a bubble and its going to crash just like housing.





> I for one do not own any bitcoins, but this comment leads me to believe that you dont really understand them.  Here is my point:
> 
> You make the argument here that at sometime in the future, when no more bitcoins are being made, that a loaf of bread is going to cost .00000001 bitcoins and these isnt going to work.  From my understanding, since bitcoins are easily divisible (by simply shifting a decimal point in your transaction) that this will never actually be a problem.  There is nothing to stop the price of bread from having an infinite number of 0's after the decimal point.  As far as I am concerned, this is an asset, not a problem.  Any good currency is easily dividable and transportable.  That is part of the reason why gold is such a good currency.
> 
> You seem to be making this debate between bitcoins and gold.  That is not the case.  While I think gold will forever be the ultimate currency, bitcoins seem to be a great option if you are looking to diversify . . . in case the government decides to confiscate all our gold again.
> 
> Thats just my two bitcoins . . . hehe.


so what? "come down to mcdonals and try our 7 x 10^-93 value meal" yea thats going to fly

i can see all you geeks wetting your paints.

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## My First Name Is Paul

> not possible, since gold and silver is an element. but once we do figure out how to do it, then don't worry no one has to work anymore because that means we can also make food and energy out of thin air. we will live like star trek where everyone works for the good of humanity


Weak.  I'm under the impression you haven't spent much time studying physics or chemistry (nor cryptography).  'Synthesis' does not require creating something out of thin air, just creating it through a man-made process, such as removing one proton and one neutron from mercury or combining the nuclei of tin and copper.

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## psi2941

> Weak.  I'm under the impression you haven't spent much time studying physics or chemistry (nor cryptography).  'Synthesis' does not require creating something out of thin air, just creating it through a man-made process, such as removing one proton and one neutron from mercury or combining the nuclei of tin and copper.


ok smart guy then do it, and tell me how to do it. so we can all get rich.

one reason i hated college, they teach all this theoretical bull$#@! but never teach reality.

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## My First Name Is Paul

> ok smart guy then do it, and tell me how to do it. so we can all get rich


I'll get started right after you crack bitcoins.  (o;

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## psi2941

> I'll get started right after you crack bitcoins.  (o;


the best you can come back is the classic "i know you are but what am i" argument? pathetic

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## hazek

> I'll get started right after you crack bitcoins.  (o;


BAM!

hahaha

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## corharozan

> the best you can come back is the classic "i know you are but what am i" argument? pathetic


I'm coming into this argument a little late. I'd like to see what you naysayers believe now (I'm sure you haven't budged any).

Let me be clear, that I have not purchased any bitcoins. I won't violently defend bitcoins because I haven't made a purchase, yet I'm not going to make pisy arguments against it either, just because it doesnt compare to gold or silver. 

#1: of course BTC will not compare to gold or silver, so nobody is making the assumption you should purchase BTCs over PMs. Let me remind you though, PM purchases are not necessarily an investment to see rich returns. It's merely a preservation of wealth. Let's be clear: BTC's are not a preservation of wealth, they are a medium of exchange. And that's it. So happens if you do make money off of BTc's, it will be because you purchased BTC's while demand was lower than what the speculated demand of BTC's will be. You will make money off of it if the market demands more for the currency.

#2 Because BTC's only use is being a medium of exchange, a currency, a cyrptocurrency, does this mean it has value? Intrinsically, no, not at all. You cannot melt BTC's and make jewelry with it. But does it still have value? I've already assumed PM's are incomparable, but PM's most certainly has it's limitations. The free-market demands a medium of exchange that a.) cannot be replicated b.) is deregulated from governments c.) can be used online. You cannot shove gold down a transmission line. What system is to prevent the arbitrary replication of receipts for gold under a gold standard? Unless we give up digital transactions and outlaw the use of paper receipts as a society, there is nothing that can prevent it. Therefore, the market demands a this medium of exchange.

#3 Why does gold and silver have value? It's withstood the test of time. If the subjective theory of value means anything, 'unique cryptographic hash' is not inherently less valuable than 'shiny rock', even if it has no representation in physical space. Each has only the value that people give to it." Value is given to BTC's because of the market demand of deregulated currencies. this initial rejection of bitcoin on intrinsic value grounds stems from a lack of understanding of cryptographic protocols, specifically the mathematical integrity of the RPOW (Reusable Proofs of Work).While bitcoin may not have tangible intrinsic value, it is still a binary display of a discreet and provably scarce cryptographic item. This is what imbues bitcoin with 'gold-like' qualities compared to a digital movie which has intrinsic value but is infinitely copyable

#4 BTC's fail to satisfy Mises' regression theorem of primary use value prior to becoming money, which is why most libertarians reject BTC's. - The regression theorem is not forward-looking and in the binary digital world of the 21st century a theorem corollary is needed to account for arbitrary enforcement and confiscation against a competing nonpolitical monetary system. This binary corollary weighs the importance of a modern money's survivability and states that a digital money is exempt from the regression theorem specifically if: (a) the network can be demonstrated to be immune from State enforcement and termination; and (b) the monetary unit can be defensible against State confiscation.

Due to its p2p decentralised structure, bitcoin satisfies both of the above conditions of the corollary. A permanent disruption of bitcoin's p2p distributed global network would require a practical shutdown of the Internet itself, something the authorities would be reluctant to do since it would simultaneously devastate the broader economy. Furthermore, the monetary unit itself is defensible against State confiscation because it is protected by strong cryptography and the units exist only on the distributed nodes of the network. Actually, bitcoin units are never really transferred but the block chain records the necessary adjustments to ownership. This is related to the tangible intrinsic value discussion because decentralisation has actually achieved defensibility against State confiscation since any other non-digital type of intrinsic value would be subject to confiscation via its centralised location.

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## IDefendThePlatform

> *Are BitCoins a good investment? Why or why not?*
> 
> Maybe:
> This post is (now) 1 day old, the current price is similar:
> 
> When I first saw Bitcoins they were at $0.05/btc  ~5 cents each
> They had recently increased ~10x up from $0.0045 / less than 1/2 a penny each
> 
> I didn't buy any since they were up 10x they "looked a bit too high"
> ...


Bump for $.0045 bitcoins

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