# Lifestyles & Discussion > Peace Through Religion >  PAUL AND THE PAGAN RELIGION OF MITHRAISM

## Ronin Truth

> *PAUL AND THE PAGAN RELIGION OF MITHRAISM*
> Ken (Lionheart16)
> Though scholars at the turn of the 20th century understood that Christianity was heavily influenced by Mithraism, there is a recent trend among Christian apologists and revisionist academics to deny this historical debt to paganism. As a case in point, Christian historian Justo Gonzales makes the following remark to refute earlier scholarship on the subject in his 1970 book “A History of Christian Thought”, Volume I: 
> 
> "Concerning the relationship between the mystery cults and Christianity, scholarly opinion has varied. During the first two or three decades of the twentieth century, it was thought that the mystery religions constituted a unity based on a common 'mystery theolgoy,' and that Christianity was simply one of them, or at most, a distinct religion is which the influence of the mysteries was greatly felt. According to the scholars of that time [e.g., W. Bousset, A. Loisy and R. Reitzenstein], Christianity had taken from the mysteries its rites of initiation----baptism, its sacramental meals---communion; its ascending stages of initiation----the orders; and a multitude of details needless to enumerate. But since then, a careful study has been made of the mysteries, and the conclusion reached by almost all scholars is that there was no such thing as a common 'mystery theology'---at least in the first century of our era. Quite the contrary, the mystery cults differed one from another so much that it is difficult even to explain the term 'mystery religion.' Moreover, the mysteries seem not to have reached their full development until the second and third centuries, which is the time when the majority of their characteristics in common with Christianity appear. It follows that such traits can be more easily explained as the influence of Christianity on the mysteries than the opposite, the more so when we learn that already in this period the pagan cults tried to imitate some of the characteristics of the dynamic new faith.” 
> 
> Gonzales based his refutation on a chronological argument. It is a common belief that Mithraism did not enter the Roman world until well after Paul’s lifetime. Alison B. Griffith, for example, says that “the evidence also indicates that at least some inhabitants(or Rome and its port city Ostia) knew about Mithraism as early as the late first century CE, but that the cult did not enjoy a wide membership in either location until the middle of the second century CE.” Similarly, the Britannica observes that “there is little notice of the Persian god in the Roman world until the beginning of the 2nd century, but, from the year AD 136 onward, there are hundreds of dedicatory inscriptions to Mithra.” Even much earlier, in the beginning of the 20th century, Albert Schweitzer argued that Apostle Paul could not possibly have had contact with what we know as the Roman mystery religion of Mithraism since it did not flourish until after his death around 67 AD. 
> 
> TRAVELER23 has also argued in this forum that “therefore, it is historical nachronism to argue that Paul took his understanding of the Eucharist from Mithraism.” 
> ...




http://jdstone.org/cr/files/paulandt...mithraism.html

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## Ronin Truth

> *Paul and the Mystery Religions* 
> This explanation of Paul and the Mystery Religions is intended to help you understand how the church replaced Yeshua's teachings with a mythology that was current in the religions that appealed to the gentiles during his time. It is, in the end, a support for Yeshua's teachings, not an attempt to disgrace them. 
> 
> If you haven't heard about Mithras yet, you will in the next few years. There are many who are so disillusioned with the church that they want to destroy everything associated with it, and in so doing, they would heave Yeshua's teachings onto the compost pile with the tattered remnants of the church. That must not happen. I explain Mithras and the man-god mythologies here so we can separate them from Yeshua and embrace his teachings; I do not present them to denigrate Yeshua. 
> 
> The early followers of Yeshua in the Jerusalem church had the problem of appealing to the Jews, who saw Yeshua's ignominious death as scandalizing. Paul had the same problem in appealing to the Jews, but he and the Greco-Roman missionaries also had the problem of converting the pagans, who didn't understand the conception of a Jewish messiah. But the time was short—they had to bring as many pagan converts into the fold as possible so they "would not perish, but have eternal life." 
> 
> The beliefs of the Jewish followers of Yeshua were still Jewish; Yeshua was the messiah who would return and rout the Romans to establish the Kingdom of Israel. However, those appealing to the pagans and god fearers (non-Jews who worshiped with the Jews) had to make some changes in their presentation of Yeshua for non-Jewish hearers. The promise for the pagan converts was that Yeshua was a Messiah for all of humankind (not just the Jews) and that they could have eternal life without becoming Jews by just believing that Yeshua was the messiah for humankind, whom they termed the savior. The pagan converts would then not "die," but would have eternal life because of their belief. 
> 
> ...


http://30ce.com/mithras.htm

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## Ronin Truth

> *Mithras*
> 
> 
> So, who was Mithras? The veneration of Mithras began around 4000 years ago in Persia (modern Iran), where he was known as Mithra, and soon became infused with the doctrines of Babylonia (modern Iraq), where it absorbed the renowned occult knowledge of the Babylonians. 
> 
> The religion spread eastwards to India and China. In India, the god was known as Mitra and was a solar deity, lord of heavenly light and guardian of the truth, responsible for maintaining cosmic order and presiding over contracts, oaths and friendship. 
> 
> In Persia, Mithra (meaning "love", "sun" and "friend") was a protector deity and god of light, with "Mithra" often being used a synonym for the sun. Persian Mithraism is even thought by some scholars to have influenced Buddhism. Many scholars also (and rightly) link Mithraism to the Knights Templar, Freemasonry and Rosicrucianism. 
> 
> ...


http://armageddonconspiracy.co.uk/Th...n(1753794).htm

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## TER

All you do is seek to destroy the body of Christ, because the demon in you wants to cut off the head, Who is Christ.  So you attack His beloved Apostles as if you are something strong or great or knowledgable, but rather, you are an old and weak fool whose too far gone to notice the blood on his feet from kicking against the goads.  And maybe this is why every post you make which I read (of the extremely few of yours I actually can mentally stomach to read), I hear a hammer striking a nail into Christ's feet.  You are special in this way of all the poster here, Ronin.  It's pretty saddening and pathetic.

You quote Gandhi as some hero, but you couldn't carry Gandhi's sandals, let alone the sandals of Gandhi's Savior Jesus Christ.  Nor even of Christ's beloved Saints, whom you have aligned yourself against.  Did Gandhi go around attacking Christians Saints all day long, trying to discredit God working in them?  But the truth is Gandhi means as much to you as Jesus Christ, which is little to nothing, and the proof is in that you demonstrate none of their qualities nor follow their commandments, (even as you make it your dying goal to judge others for trying to follow them).  Actions will be judged by intentions, and even if this entire website disappeared or the entire internet and it's recorded history vanished, your words and actions remain and will be judged.  Not by me, but by Him Whom you persecute.

Why you have not been banned a long time ago is beyond my imagination, Truth Warrior.  I would have fired you a long time ago so that you can take up your job of libeling greater people then you somewhere else and releaving this board of your incessant attacks against those who consider themselves Christians.  You are less than an ISIS jihadist. At least they risk their lives to live to a perceived higher standard while you spend the remainer of your days glued before a computer screen pointing arrows at Christians.   Pathetic.

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## Ronin Truth

> All you do is seek to destroy the body of Christ, because the demon in you wants to cut off the head, Who is Christ. So you attack His beloved Apostles as if you are something strong or great or knowledgable, but rather, you are an old and weak fool whose too far gone to notice the blood on his feet from kicking against the goads. And maybe this is why every post you make which I read (of the extremely few of yours I actually can mentally stomach to read), I hear a hammer striking a nail into Christ's feet. You are special in this way of all the poster here, Ronin. It's pretty saddening and pathetic.
> 
> You quote Gandhi as some hero, but you couldn't carry Gandhi's sandals, let alone the sandals of Gandhi's Savior Jesus Christ. Nor even of Christ's beloved Saints, whom you have aligned yourself against. Did Gandhi go around attacking Christians Saints all day long, trying to discredit God working in them? But the truth is Gandhi means as much to you as Jesus Christ, which is little to nothing, and the proof is in that you demonstrate none of their qualities nor follow their commandments, (even as you make it your dying goal to judge others for trying to follow them). Actions will be judged by intentions, and even if this entire website disappeared or the entire internet and it's recorded history vanished, your words and actions remain and will be judged. Not by me, but by Him Whom you persecute.
> 
> Why you have not been banned a long time ago is beyond my imagination, Truth Warrior. I would have fired you a long time ago so that you can take up your job of libeling greater people then you somewhere else and releaving this board of your incessant attacks against those who consider themselves Christians. You are less than an ISIS jihadist. At least they risk their lives to live to a perceived higher standard while you spend the remainer of your days glued before a computer screen pointing arrows at Christians. Pathetic.


Jesus loves and forgives you too.

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## TER

I am not so certain Jesus has forgiven me, and less certain He has forgiven you by the way you continue to fight against Him.

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## Ronin Truth

> I am not so certain Jesus has forgiven me, and less certain He has forgiven you by the way you continue to fight against Him.


Jesus and I are buds, not to worry.   Though I gotta tell you, he's none too pleased with the Paulinists.  Word to the wise.

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## TER

> Jesus and I are buds, not to worry.   Though I gotta tell you, he's none too pleased with the Paulinists.  Word to the wise.


You are as good a bud as Judas.  Word to the wise.

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## Ronin Truth

> You are as good a bud as Judas. Word to the wise.


Interesting point, did Jesus know how it would all turn out when he picked him? If so, then wasn't he just carrying out his assignment? 

https://www.chapman.edu/wilkinson/re...and_Thomas.pdf

Actually I seem to be in pretty good company since the *REAL* apostles rejected Paul also. 

Tag, you're it.

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## TER

> Interesting point, did Jesus know how it would all turn out when he picked him? If so, then wasn't he just carrying out his assignment? 
> 
> https://www.chapman.edu/wilkinson/re...and_Thomas.pdf
> 
> Actually I seem to be in pretty good company since the *REAL* apostles rejected Paul also. 
> 
> Tag, you're it.


i don't want to play tag or anything else with you, old fool.  You relish to stir the pot and your main contribution in this forum is to get Christians riled up so that you can accuse them of being bad Christians.  Your posts are a waste of time and your presence here revolting.

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## erowe1

Did I miss it? Or did none of those posts mention a single thing Paul said that was rooted in Mithraism?

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## TER

> Did I miss it? Or did none of those posts mention a single thing Paul said that was rooted in Mithraism?


No, you didn't miss it.  Typical garbage posts as to be expected.

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## Ronin Truth

> i don't want to play tag or anything else with you, old fool. You relish to stir the pot and your main contribution in this forum is to get Christians riled up so that you can accuse them of being bad Christians. Your posts are a waste of time and your presence here revolting.


More spleen venting?  Egad, get it all out.  Catharsis is good for the soul.  How long have you been storing this stuff up? SHEESH!   If I were you I would suggest that you just not post to me.  It just seems to rile up some of your inner demons.   

Paul loves you. 

Does that help, any?

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## TER

> More spleen venting?  Egad, get it all out.  Catharsis is good for the soul.  How long have you been storing this stuff up? SHEESH!   If I were you I would suggest that you just not post to me.  It just seems to rile up some of your inner demons.   
> 
> Paul loves you. 
> 
> Does that help, any?


Nothing you have ever posted here Truth Warrior has helped me other than to help me know which threads to ignore.  For today though, I will make an exception.

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## Natural Citizen

> All you do is seek to destroy the body of Christ, because the demon in you wants to cut off the head, Who is Christ.  So you attack His beloved Apostles as if you are something strong or great or knowledgable, but rather, you are an old and weak fool whose too far gone to notice the blood on his feet from kicking against the goads.  And maybe this is why every post you make which I read (of the extremely few of yours I actually can mentally stomach to read), I hear a hammer striking a nail into Christ's feet.  You are special in this way of all the poster here, Ronin.  It's pretty saddening and pathetic.
> 
> You quote Gandhi as some hero, but you couldn't carry Gandhi's sandals, let alone the sandals of Gandhi's Savior Jesus Christ.  Nor even of Christ's beloved Saints, whom you have aligned yourself against.  Did Gandhi go around attacking Christians Saints all day long, trying to discredit God working in them?  But the truth is Gandhi means as much to you as Jesus Christ, which is little to nothing, and the proof is in that you demonstrate none of their qualities nor follow their commandments, (even as you make it your dying goal to judge others for trying to follow them).  Actions will be judged by intentions, and even if this entire website disappeared or the entire internet and it's recorded history vanished, your words and actions remain and will be judged.  Not by me, but by Him Whom you persecute.
> 
> Why you have not been banned a long time ago is beyond my imagination, Truth Warrior.  I would have fired you a long time ago so that you can take up your job of libeling greater people then you somewhere else and releaving this board of your incessant attacks against those who consider themselves Christians.  You are less than an ISIS jihadist. At least they risk their lives to live to a perceived higher standard while you spend the remainer of your days glued before a computer screen pointing arrows at Christians.   Pathetic.


Atta boy, TER. I knew you had it in you all along. If some of you long timers don't speak up, you'll soon enough be without a platform here. It is, after all, what we make it. Right? Is what it is. Good for you. 

For the record, I believe that he makes a mockery of this sub-section because he doesn't want it here at all. And I think that a lot of others who never post here in this section cheerlead him with a revolving door of rep behind the scenes so he keeps doing it because they don't want the sub-section either. That's just my thought on it.

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## Ronin Truth

> Did I miss it? Or did none of those posts mention a single thing Paul said that was rooted in Mithraism?


Nah you didn't. What's Paul gonna say, "This is really about, Mithras"? 

Where did Paul quote Jesus?

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## TER

> Atta boy, TER. I knew you had it in you all along. If some of you long timers don't speak up, you'll soon enough be without a platform here. It is, after all, what we make it. Right? Is what it is. Good for you.


I wonder how many visitors leave because they read the garbage threads started by Truth Warrior. He hurts this forum with the relentless attacks against Christians and I for one admit he is one of the main reasons I drastically stopped visiting here and posting.   I freely admit if this was my site I would have banned him long ago so that his garbage would stop stinking up the joint.  It's up to the moderators and Bryan of course.  We all choose our bed mates.

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## Natural Citizen

> I wonder how many visitors leave because they read the garbage threads started by Truth Warrior. He hurts this forum with the relentless attacks against Christians and I for one admit he is one of the main reasons I drastically stopped visiting here and posting.   I freely admit if this was my site I would have banned him long ago so that his garbage would stop stinking up the joint.  It's up to the moderators and Bryan of course.  We all choose our bed mates.


The Peace Through Religion section is why I decided to spend less time here. There a while back, I tried to add relevant news and goings-on around the world that pertain to Peace and Religion in a way that may have invited some sort of synergy but that's when Ronin actually started his meme. 

I'll say this. The people that I have had the most respect for as people don't post here at all anymore or very little at all if they do. And that's scwewy, really. I'm not entirely sold on faith alone but I find that I get along with and have much more reasonable discussion with theologists with regard to it. I'm not a very political person, and, so, I used to enjoy this section.

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## Ronin Truth

> Atta boy, TER. I knew you had it in you all along. If some of you long timers don't speak up, you'll soon enough be without a platform here. It is, after all, what we make it. Right? Is what it is. Good for you. 
> 
> For the record, I believe that he makes a mockery of this sub-section because he doesn't want it here at all. And I think that a lot of others who never post here in this section cheerlead him with a revolving door of rep behind the scenes so he keeps doing it because they don't want the sub-section either. That's just my thought on it.


You are just about as stupid as I expected and experienced you to be.  

BTW, get off my thread.

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## erowe1

> Nah you didn't. What's Paul gonna say, "This is really about, Mithras"?


So there's no evidence for the claim that Paul based anything on Mithras? What's the point of the OP then?




> Where did Paul quote Jesus?


Romans 12:14
Romans 13:9
Romans 14:14
1 Corinthians 7:10
1 Corinthians 9:14
1 Corinthians 11:24-25
Galatians 5:14
Galatians 6:2
1 Timothy 5:18

And the teachings of Jesus permeate everything else Paul says as allusions. Paul is clearly dependent on the teachings of Jesus all throughout his writings.

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## TER

> So there's no evidence for the claim that Paul based anything on Mithras? What's the point of the OP then?


The point is that the OP has declared himself an enemy of Christ and enjoys persecuting His body.

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## Ronin Truth

> I wonder how many visitors leave because they read the garbage threads started by Truth Warrior. He hurts this forum with the relentless attacks against Christians and I for one admit he is one of the main reasons I drastically stopped visiting here and posting. I freely admit if this was my site I would have banned him long ago so that his garbage would stop stinking up the joint. It's up to the moderators and Bryan of course. We all choose our bed mates.


As long as my rep score stays *waaaay* ahead of my post count, I really figure that I'm probably doing something right.  

Sorry, you're not a fan too.  (Not really.)

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## Natural Citizen

> You are just about as stupid as I expected and experienced you to be.  
> 
> BTW, get off my thread.


It isn't your thread. 

Ronin, you're only here because we haven't kicked you out yet. The members here have much more influence on your outcome than any moderator. All a moderator has to do is flip the switch. And you are outnumbered. Believe that. I'll SWAG that some of us could come together in a group pm and you'd be out of here by nightfall.

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## otherone

> The Peace Through Religion section is why I decided to spend less time here. There a while back, I tried to add relevant news and goings-on around the world that pertain to Peace and Religion in a way that may have invited some sort of synergy but that's when Ronin actually started his meme. 
> 
> I'll say this. The people that I have had the most respect for as people don't post here at all anymore or very little at all if they do. And that's scwewy, really. I'm not entirely sold on faith alone but I find that I get along with and have much more reasonable discussion with theologists with regard to it. I'm not a very political person, and, so, I used to enjoy this section.


I remember how annoyed you were when others posted OT on your threads.  Glad to see you've loosened your stance.

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## Ronin Truth

> The point is that the OP has declared himself an enemy of Christ and enjoys persecuting His body.


You do realize that you can go to hell for lying, just as well as for stealing don't you?

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## Ronin Truth

> It isn't your thread. 
> 
> Ronin, you're only here because we haven't kicked you out yet. The members here have much more influence on your outcome than any moderator. All a moderator has to do is flip the switch. And you are outnumbered. Believe that. I'll SWAG that some of us could come together in a group pm and you'd be out of here by nightfall.



I may remind you of that on your next several threads. OK?

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## Natural Citizen

> I remember how annoyed you were when others posted OT on your threads.  Glad to see you've loosened your stance.


Really? I don't recall that. If you run across any of those threads, then, please send them to me. That way I can place your thought here into context. I'd be interested in reading them. Thanks.

I may have very well done that, but, likely the only way I would do that is if it were actually something that was being discussed seriously and some dolt just came along and changed the subject with some silly meme or something just because he or she didn't like the topic itself. That happens quite a bit here.

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## TER

> You do realize that you can go to hell for lying, just as well as for stealing don't you?


I'm sure you will be there to greet me at the door.

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## Natural Citizen

> I may remind you of that on your next several threads. OK?


I welcome it. In fact, I encourage it.

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## Ronin Truth

> No, you didn't miss it. Typical garbage posts as to be expected.


***** OFF TOPIC! ****

*Were you a drama major in college?

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## Ronin Truth

> I'm sure you will be there to greet me at the door.


  ***** OFF TOPIC! ****
*

Nah, I'll have much better friends there than you.  And besides, I ain't going.

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## Ronin Truth

> I welcome it. In fact, I encourage it.


 ***** OFF TOPIC! ***** 
I'll need to work on my gag reflex first.

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## TER

> ***** OFF TOPIC! ****
> 
> *Were you a drama major in college?


No.  Philosophy minor.  Chemical Biology was the major.  My favorites courses though were quantum physics.   But interestingly, you remind me of my clinical rotation in Psychiatry.

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## Ronin Truth

> Really? I don't recall that. If you run across any of those threads, then, please send them to me. That way I can place your thought here into context. I'd be interested in reading them. Thanks.
> 
> I may have very well done that, but, likely the only way I would do that is if it were actually something that was being discussed seriously and some dolt just came along and changed the subject with some silly meme or something just because he or she didn't like the topic itself. That happens quite a bit here.


***** OFF TOPIC! *****

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## TER

> ***** OFF TOPIC! *****


Lol, every one of your posts are off topic!  lol

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## Ronin Truth

> No. Philosophy actually. Chemical Biology was the major. My favorites courses though were quantum physics. But interestingly, you remind me of my clinical rotation in Psychiatry.



***** OFF TOPIC! ****

*There's often a very fine line between genius and insanity.   I think you're safe.  LOL!

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## Natural Citizen

> ***** OFF TOPIC! *****


Report the post. It is the little triangle down on the left. Clickit. Do it now. Come on. Lets go...

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## TER

> ***** OFF TOPIC! ****
> 
> *There's often a very fine line between genius and insanity.   I think you're safe.  LOL!


Thanks!  I wish I could say the same for you!

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## Suzanimal

> ***** OFF TOPIC! *****


https://www.google.com/search?q=off+...sm=93&ie=UTF-8

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## Ronin Truth

> Nothing you have ever posted here Truth Warrior has helped me other than to help me know which threads to ignore. For today though, I will make an exception.


***** OFF TOPIC! *****

Well your content really sucks. But I do appreciate the thread bumps.

I do understand that you are just trying to make a big enough stink and fuss that the thread gets closed. It will probably work.

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## TER

> ***** OFF TOPIC! *****
> 
> Well your content really sucks.


I'm sure there isn't enough antiChristian sentiments in them to get your juices going.  Sorry for that!  




> I do understand that you are just trying to make a big enough stink and fuss that the thread gets closed. It will probably work.


Getting the thread closed would not even be a consolation prize.  Nah, it will eventually come down to either you or me leaving.  That's the fuss I am making.

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## Ronin Truth

> Lol, every one of your posts are off topic! lol


***** OFF TOPIC! ****

*There you go, lying again. 


Years of Paulinist practice is really paying off for you.

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## TER

***** OFF TOPIC! *****

What Truth Warrior is in almost every thread.

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## heavenlyboy34

RT is TW 2.0?    Huh.  TW struck me as a much smarter fellow than RT.

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## TER

> RT is TW 2.0?    Huh.  TW struck me as a much smarter fellow than RT.


Wasn't fond of him then either, before the senility kicked in.

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## Ronin Truth

> I'm sure there isn't enough antiChristian sentiments in them to get your juices going. Sorry for that! 
> 
> 
> 
> Getting the thread closed would not even be a consolation prize. Nah, it will eventually come down to either you or me leaving. That's the fuss I am making.


***** OFF TOPIC! ***** 

No prob. 

I've been chewing up folks like you for decades. 

Either way, bye-bye.

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## TER

> ***** OFF TOPIC! ***** 
> 
> No prob. 
> 
> I've been chewing up folks like you for decades. 
> 
> Either way, bye-bye.


Too bad your bite is not so strong when it counts anymore, fool.  Go spread your antiChristian garbage some place else.

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## Ronin Truth

> Too bad your bite is not so strong when it counts anymore, fool. Go spread your antiChristian garbage some place else.


 ***** OFF TOPIC! *****

Be sure to point out to me what here counts, will ya? 

Since you seem to think that your anti-Jesus Paulinism is perfectly fine, you just truly are a lost soul.  <sniff, sniff> Whatever.

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## Natural Citizen

> ***** OFF TOPIC! *****
> 
> Be sure to point out to me what here counts, will ya? 
> 
> Since you seem to think that your anti-Jesus Paulinism is perfectly fine, you just truly are a lost soul.


Ruh Roh, Ronin. 




> *1) Operate with ethically sound principles.
> 
> * • Work to promote a peaceful, freedom loving, compassionate society.
> 
> *2) Maintain good etiquette by treating other people with respect.
> 
> *• No insulting, antagonizing or personally attacking other users.
> • Ad hominem attacks on any individual...
> • Be respectful of others' religion or lack there of.
> ...



These are the schematics for defining what counts. You're likely going to have to brush up. Well..., to your credit, you admittedly need to be pointed to what here counts...

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## Dr.3D

Be careful folks.....



> _NRS_ *Matthew 5:22* But I say to you that if you are angry with a brother or sister, you will be liable to judgment; and if you insult a brother or sister, you will be liable to the council; and if you say, 'You fool,' you will be liable to the hell of fire.

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## erowe1

Anyway, is it safe to say that no one here can actually produce any quotes from Paul for which they have any evidence that they were based on Mithraism?

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## otherone

> Anyway, is it safe to say that no one here can actually produce any quotes from Paul for which they have any evidence that they were based on Mithraism?


Is that what this is about?

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## Ronin Truth

> Is that what this is about?


No. It's really about the first 3 thread posts so far.  

Or at least it was until the Paulinist Mafia showed up.

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## Ronin Truth

> Ruh Roh, Ronin. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are the schematics for defining what counts. You're likely going to have to brush up. Well..., to your credit, you admittedly need to be pointed to what here counts...


*
**** OFF TOPIC! ****

*

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## Ronin Truth

> Be careful folks.....


Thanks!

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## Ronin Truth

> ***** OFF TOPIC! *****
> 
> What Truth Warrior is in almost every thread.


A horrible liar AND can't count, a really boring combo.

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## Ronin Truth

> Anyway, is it safe to say that no one here can actually produce any quotes from Paul for which they have any evidence that they were based on Mithraism?



Found many Jesus quotes from Paul yet?

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## Ronin Truth

> RT is TW 2.0?   Huh. TW struck me as a much smarter fellow than RT.



***** OFF TOPIC! ***** 

I think I may have lost a few somethings in the stroke. But I've still got more than enough left.  BTW, you WERE too, and also much more pleasant.

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## Sola_Fide

> Found many Jesus quotes from Paul yet?


Why would Paul in his epistles have to keep repeating the verses of Jesus word for word to churches he founded and already delivered the gospel to?

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## Ronin Truth

> Wasn't fond of him then either, before the senility kicked in.


***** OFF TOPIC! ****

*Gee, and I have no recollection of you at all. Must not have made much of an impression. I can believe that.

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## Ronin Truth

> Why would Paul in his epistles have to keep repeating the verses of Jesus word for word to churches he founded and already delivered the gospel to?


  I really don't know.  Did I say he had to?  Just seems like in 13 NT books, what Jesus had to say about things just might have come up at least a few times.  

Though being a Roman, he really did know and understand Mithras better.

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## Sola_Fide

> I really don't know.  Did I say he had to?  Just seems like in 13 NT books, what Jesus had to say about things just might have come up at least a few times.  
> 
> Though being a Roman, he really did know and understand Mithras better.


What Jesus had to say came up in every sentence.

Secondly....the logic fail is just horrendous.  Bill Maher is an American.   What does him being an American have to do with his religious beliefs?

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## Ronin Truth

> What Jesus had to say came up in every sentence.
> 
> Secondly....the logic fail is just horrendous. Bill Maher is an American. What does him being an American have to do with his religious beliefs?


Show me 10 of every sentence. Though that's not really Jesus quotes.

Bill Maher is not Paul. America is not the Roman Empire. Maher is an atheist. Paul was a Pharisee pagan Mithraist. 

Logic is much better than yours.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> ***** OFF TOPIC! ***** 
> 
> I think I may have lost a few somethings in the stroke. But I've still got more than enough left.  *BTW, you WERE too, and also much more pleasant*.


"were" what?  Sentences with ambiguous references make for poor prose and earn the severe ire of editors in the English speaking/writing world.  I'm pretty sure I'm more pleasant than I used to be.  I get more +reps and hugs now than I did in '08.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Show me 10 of every sentence. Though that's not really Jesus quotes.
> 
> Bill Maher is not Paul. America is not the Roman Empire. Maher is an atheist. Paul was a Pharisee pagan Mithraist. 
> 
> Logic is much better than yours.


Dude, you are just horrible....

----------


## erowe1

> Though being a Roman, he really did know and understand Mithras better.


Do you have any evidence for that?

----------


## erowe1

> Found many Jesus quotes from Paul yet?


I listed some already, right when you asked the first time.

----------


## erowe1

> No. It's really about the first 3 thread posts so far.


I thought that was what the first 3 thread posts were supposed to be about?

----------


## TER

> Be careful folks.....






> NRS Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that if you are angry with a brother or sister, you will be liable to judgment; and if you insult a brother or sister, you will be liable to the council; and if you say, 'You fool,' you will be liable to the hell of fire.


Those who deny Christ or who have not accepted Him into their hearts, I still want to be friends with.  I have many friends who are so.  Those however who fight against Christ are my enemy.   I pray for them, but they remain my enemy, because they persecute my Lord and relentlessly attack His body, who are actually my brothers and sisters.  Ronin is as much a brother as Judas, who was a fool in doubting the divinity and power of Christ and has by his words and his deed been found liable to the hell of fire.

----------


## TER

> A horrible liar AND can't count, a really boring combo.


My wife seems to trust and like me.  That must count for something.

----------


## TER

> ***** OFF TOPIC! ***** 
> 
> I think I may have lost a few somethings in the stroke. But I've still got more than enough left.  BTW, you WERE too, and also much more pleasant.


Which stroke?  The one in the brain or the one in the soul, which drives you to persecute and accuse Christians day after day?  Seems like something got stuck on $#@!.  I get stuck there too sometimes, like the past 24 hours, only, by the help and mercy of God, I eventually snap out of it, or at least shut my mouth.  You on the other hand have been unstoppable with your anti-Christian posts for the past year or so.

----------


## RJB

Are you aware that most of these posts you respond to are in response to YOUR off topic posts?  Infact by your logic the quotation of yours below is "OFF TOPIC."







> *
> **** OFF TOPIC! ****
> 
> *

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Dude, you are just horrible....


***** OFF TOPIC! *****



And even with all that, I'm still a bazillion times better than you. Go figure.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Do you have any evidence for that?


Sure tons of it, but given your past, I'm pretty confident that you won't even bother to read it.   And then just whine about it.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> I listed some already, right when you asked the first time.


Thanks, but out of 13 NT books that was all you could find? 

Let me guess most of the rest were more lies than we really ever wanted to not know about him.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Are you aware that most of these posts you respond to are in response to YOUR off topic posts? Infact by your logic the quotation of yours below is "OFF TOPIC."


***** OFF TOPIC! *****

This thread's topic is NOT me.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Which stroke? The one in the brain or the one in the soul, which drives you to persecute and accuse Christians day after day? Seems like something got stuck on $#@!. I get stuck there too sometimes, like the past 24 hours, only, by the help and mercy of God, I eventually snap out of it, or at least shut my mouth. You on the other hand have been unstoppable with your anti-Christian posts for the past year or so.


***** OFF TOPIC! *****

MYOB!

----------


## Ronin Truth

> My wife seems to trust and like me. That must count for something.


***** OFF TOPIC! *****

Good for her, and mine me too.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Those who deny Christ or who have not accepted Him into their hearts, I still want to be friends with. I have many friends who are so. Those however who fight against Christ are my enemy. I pray for them, but they remain my enemy, because they persecute my Lord and relentlessly attack His body, who are actually my brothers and sisters. Ronin is as much a brother as Judas, who was a fool in doubting the divinity and power of Christ and has by his words and his deed been found liable to the hell of fire.


***** OFF TOPIC! *****

<YAWN!> ZZZZZZZZZ!

You got any curses from Zeus or Zoraster for me, in that Satan's evil bag of yours?

----------


## Ronin Truth

> I thought that was what the first 3 thread posts were supposed to be about?



It is and was, at least until the off topic 'goons for Paul' showed up.  

I won't bother to ask if you read them.

----------


## erowe1

> Thanks, but out of 13 NT books that was all you could find?


That was off the top of my head. But parallels between what Paul said and Jesus said are all over the place in Paul's letters, even when Paul doesn't explicitly point out that Jesus said something.

Also, the central message of both Jesus and Paul was the same. And that message was more about who Jesus was and what he did, than what he said. He is the Messiah, the Son of God, who died and rose again so that whoever believes on him will be saved. Both Jesus and Paul teach these things, and both put them at the center of their teachings.

Finally, notice that none of Paul's 13 letters were written to provide a thorough coverage of the teachings of Paul or the apostles or Jesus. None were written to explain or introduce Christianity to people who didn't already know about it. All 13 were written to groups of Christians who had already been taught about Jesus, usually by Paul himself. And when Paul's epistles give us a window back to what that original teaching included, it is clear that it included teaching about the sayings of Jesus. Notice that in the examples I gave of Paul quoting Jesus, he does so with the expectation that his audience already knows that Jesus said those things, and he is appealing to Jesus' authority to buttress his argument.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Are you aware that most of these posts you respond to are in response to YOUR off topic posts? Infact by your logic the quotation of yours below is "OFF TOPIC."


***** OFF TOPIC! *****

I ain't the thread topic.

----------


## erowe1

> It is and was, at least until the off topic 'goons for Paul' showed up.  
> 
> I won't bother to ask if you read them.


I did. But I was looking for something specific when I read them, namely any reference to any verses from Paul's epistles that were reflected an influence from Mithraism. Conspicuously, unless I missed it, the author never once offered a single example.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> That was off the top of my head. But parallels between what Paul said and Jesus said are all over the place in Paul's letters, even when Paul doesn't explicitly point out that Jesus said something.
> 
> Also, the central message of both Jesus and Paul was the same. And that message was more about who Jesus was and what he did, than what he said. He is the Messiah, the Son of God, who died and rose again so that whoever believes on him will be saved. Both Jesus and Paul teach these things, and both put them at the center of their teachings.
> 
> Finally, notice that none of Paul's 13 letters were written to provide a thorough coverage of the teachings of Paul or the apostles or Jesus. None were written to explain or introduce Christianity to people who didn't already know about it. All 13 were written to groups of Christians who had already been taught about Jesus, usually by Paul himself. And when Paul's epistles give us a window back to what that original teaching included, it is clear that it included teaching about the sayings of Jesus. Notice that in the examples I gave of Paul quoting Jesus, he does so with the expectation that his audience already knows that Jesus said those things, and he is appealing to Jesus' authority to buttress his argument.



Write a book.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...09.hUoGuYCySqk

----------


## erowe1

> Write a book.
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...09.hUoGuYCySqk


Those books have been written. There's plenty out there for anyone wanting to investigate this issue.

One book I enjoyed greatly and would highly recommend to you or anyone else who's interested is Paul and His Predecessors, by Archibald Hunter.

That book isn't specifically about Paul's dependence on Jesus, but more generally about what we can learn from the available evidence about what beliefs and practices of the Jesus movement were in existence prior to Paul's influence on that movement.

Another much more recent book that tackles your charge of Jesus vs. Paul head on is Paul and Jesus, by David Wenham.

Of course there are many others. For those wanting to understand the issue, counting the hits on a google search won't meet that need.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Write a book.
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...09.hUoGuYCySqk


That's your stupid response to Erowe's well reasoned post?  You are an idiot.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> *Mithraism - True Christianity?* 
> 
> The absurdly close parallels between Christianity and Mithraism are summarised below. Mithras was:
> 
> 1) Born on 25 December. 
> 2) Born of a virgin.
> 3) Born in a cave and attended by shepherds and wise men who gave him gifts.
> 4) The Son of God and intermediary between God and humanity.
> 5) Regarded as a "King" and Saviour who shed eternal blood.
> ...


//

----------


## erowe1

> //


Again, they just leap to what they call "Paul's version of Christianity." But where in their list of parallels is anything from Paul?

You might want to be careful here. If you really want to pit Paul against Jesus, so that you can side with Jesus against Paul, and if you really want to find parallels between Christianity and Mithraism, you might find that Jesus's version of Christianity was more Mithraic than Paul's was. And then where you be left? Will you say that Paul's problem was that he wasn't Mithraic enough?

----------


## Ronin Truth

> That's your stupid response to Erowe's well reasoned post? You are an idiot.


***** OFF TOPIC! ****

*I ain't the thread topic.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Again, they just leap to what they call "Paul's version of Christianity." But where in their list of parallels is anything from Paul?
> 
> You might want to be careful here. If you really want to pit Paul against Jesus, so that you can side with Jesus against Paul, and if you really want to find parallels between Christianity and Mithraism, you might find that Jesus's version of Christianity was more Mithraic than Paul's was. And then where you be left? Will you say that Paul's problem was that he wasn't Mithraic enough?


Nope.

----------


## erowe1

> Nope.


Am I right that you still can't come up with a single example of anything from Paul he didn't get from Jesus before him, that parallels anything in Mithraism?

----------


## euphemia

Nothing predates God himself, or the promise of a Redeemer, except creation and two pieces of fruit.  Traditions are just tradition.  Jesus said that.  What matters is the heart. He said cleaning the outside of the cup was useless if the inside was not clean as well.

Paul was not an outlier in the early church.  There were many people around him, and they made the effort to be of one mind as much as possible.  Acts is the chronicle of what was practiced.  Everything written in the epistles should be compared to what is recorded as actual practice.  Again, that require accepting the entire Bible as the canon of Scripture with full authority on faith and practice.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Am I right that you still can't come up with a single example of anything from Paul he didn't get from Jesus before him, that parallels anything in Mithraism?


Nope.  Read the Google link bomb I gave you.

----------


## erowe1

> Nope.  Read the Google link bomb I gave you.


So you can provide an example?

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Nothing predates God himself, or the promise of a Redeemer, except creation and two pieces of fruit. Traditions are just tradition. Jesus said that. What matters is the heart. He said cleaning the outside of the cup was useless if the inside was not clean as well.
> 
> Paul was not an outlier in the early church. There were many people around him, and they made the effort to be of one mind as much as possible. Acts is the chronicle of what was practiced. Everything written in the epistles should be compared to what is recorded as actual practice. Again, that require accepting the entire Bible as the canon of Scripture with full authority on faith and practice.



Noted. Thanks! 

http://www.problemswithpaul.com/index.html

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Nope.  Read the Google link bomb I gave you.


Why open your mouth then?

----------


## euphemia

My faith and practice comes from the Bible.  It is accepted as the canon of Scripture by believers through history.  I am not going to waste time reading what other people write, tearing down what has been the foundation of faith and practice since the first writing of the Law.  

I think you are wasting your time reading secular writing to try to increase your knowledge.  As the Bible says, knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.  

I don't see that all your study is helping you love others or try to live in unity with believers.  The evidence is just not there.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> *History of Apostle Paul*
> 
> Paul was a Pharisee. One day he had a revelation. He changed his name from Saul to Paul, and straightway preached his revelations about the Christ in the synagogues. Paul continued to have new revelations that spoke of and for a Christ, but he was glaringly silent about the actual life of Yahoshua (Jesus) and his teachings. In Pauls epistles we find him using the words Christ, Son of God, grace, redemption, resurrection, etc., but we learn little or nothing about Yahoshua and his actual teachings. Theyre virtually absent from Pauls epistles. What we learn about are Pauls revelations. Roughly 50% of the New Testament (13 epistles) is from Saul, a man who neither knew Yahoshua in the flesh, nor was instructed by the apostles. Rather, he taught by unsubstantiated revelation, *Ezekiel 13:2-9*. 
> 
> Paul considered himself the apostle to the Gentiles, primarily because his doctrine (called that way, *Acts 19:9, 23*) was rejected by Jewish Christians and the Asian churches alike; and he was forced to seek converts who knew nothing of Yahudim (Jewish) customs and the Law. Pauls doctrine was adverse to the teachings of Yahoshua; and he was often in conflict with James, Peter, and John; the real apostles. And by the way, Paul was not an apostle. 
> 
> Paul spent an inordinate amount of time defending himself and his teachings from accusations of guile, lies, and covetousness. None of the real apostles were so accused. Pauls core philosophy of justification by faith and abolition of Torah Law stands in opposition to Yahoshuas statements in the gospels. Paul thought nothing of lying or practicing pagan customs if it meant gaining a new convert to his own brand of salvation, *Romans 3:7, I Corinthians 10:14-21, 9:19-22*. 
> 
> Pauls words speak for themselves. His use of personal pronouns in his epistles (I, me, my, mine) is three times that of any other writer. Paul urged his followers to follow _him_. He preached by revelation. Paul preached his doctrine in the name of Christ, but his teachings were not in alignment with Yahoshuas teachings, *John 5:43*.
> ...


http://www.problemswithpaul.com/Apostle_Paul.html

Please refer all of your arguments with the above, to your HOLY BIBLE, for further clarification.

----------


## otherone

> http://www.problemswithpaul.com/Apostle_Paul.html
> 
> Please refer all of your arguments with the above, to your HOLY BIBLE, for further clarification.


RT, with all due respect, if you feel comfortable dismissing Paul, then on what grounds do you have for_ anything_ in scripture?  If the epistles were included for $#@!s and giggles, why not the gospels?  Or any of it?  Where is your standard for veritas?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> RT, with all due respect, if you feel comfortable dismissing Paul, then on what grounds do you have for_ anything_ in scripture?  If the epistles were included for $#@!s and giggles, why not the gospels?  Or any of it?  Where is your standard for veritas?


Great logical question.

----------


## euphemia

Don't you see?  Dismissing the epistles releases him from any obligation to believe the same truth as anyone else, and removes accountability for him to act respectfully toward others.  

This is the antithesis of libertarianism.  Nobody is free to believe anything except what RT latches onto from his online reading.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> RT, with all due respect, if you feel comfortable dismissing Paul, then on what grounds do you have for_ anything_ in scripture? If the epistles were included for $#@!s and giggles, why not the gospels? Or any of it? Where is your standard for veritas?


My view is that the Romans "cooked the books" as part of the hijacking of the religion *OF* Jesus. 

Which is why and how the NT ends up having 13 books of Paul.

*"By their fruits, ye shall know them."

*
*"Christianity is the religion founded by Paul, which replaces Jesus' Gospel with a Gospel about Jesus - a religion that should rather be called Paulinism." -- Dr. Wilhelm Nestle, Church Historian

*

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Don't you see? Dismissing the epistles releases him from any obligation to believe the same truth as anyone else, and removes accountability for him to act respectfully toward others. 
> 
> This is the antithesis of libertarianism. Nobody is free to believe anything except what RT latches onto from his online reading.


You are merely fantasizing in a make believe la-la land. I've never said any such thing. Anyone may think, believe and post anything they want, as far as I'm concerned.

The problems and issues will arise and come from the forum's mods and admin. 

Get real.

//

----------


## RJB

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=ronin+is+wrong  500,000 google links proving Ronin is wrong.

You play a very silly game.

----------


## RJB

> ***** OFF TOPIC! *****
> 
> This thread's topic is NOT me.



***** OFF TOPIC! *****

----------


## Ronin Truth

> RT, with all due respect, if you feel comfortable dismissing Paul, then on what grounds do you have for_ anything_ in scripture? If the epistles were included for $#@!s and giggles, why not the gospels? Or any of it? Where is your standard for veritas?


I need no standard of veritas. It's not my book nor job to fix. Let the Paulinsts fix and wrestle with it, if they care enough, which they don't. Or not. It seems that it only needs to be good enough to work well enough. 

Whatever. <shrug>

----------


## RJB

> I need no standard of veritas. It's not my book nor job to fix. Let the Paulinsts fix and wrestle with it, if they care enough, which they don't. Or not. It seems that it only needs to be good enough to work well enough. 
> 
> Whatever. <shrug>


***** OFF TOPIC! *****

----------


## Sola_Fide

> I need no standard of veritas. It's not my book nor job to fix. Let the Paulinsts fix and wrestle with it, if they care enough, which they don't. Or not. It seems that it only needs to be good enough to work well enough. 
> 
> Whatever. <shrug>


Your standard of truth is Google.

----------


## otherone

> I need no standard of veritas. It's not my book nor job to fix. Let the Paulinsts fix and wrestle with it, if they care enough, which they don't. Or not. It seems that it only needs to be good enough to work well enough. 
> 
> Whatever. <shrug>


????
You haven't addressed my question.  What makes the gospels truth if you reject the epistles?   Why aren't the gospels nonsense as well?  What is your measuring stick for Truth?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> ????
> You haven't addressed my question.  What makes the gospels truth if you reject the epistles?   Why aren't the gospels nonsense as well?  What is your measuring stick for Truth?


He will never answer that question.  There's no reason to ask him.

----------


## RJB

> ????
> You haven't addressed my question.  What makes the gospels truth if you reject the epistles?   Why aren't the gospels nonsense as well?  What is your measuring stick for Truth?


Good questions.  

I think you (Ronin) claimed to be something of a Buddhist.  Do you dislike Bhuddist writings by authors who are not Siddhartha Gautam?

----------


## heavenlyboy34

[QUOTE=Ronin Truth;5883754]My view is that the Romans "cooked the books" as part of the hijacking of the religion *OF* Jesus. 

Which is why and how the NT ends up having 13 books of Paul.

*"By their fruits, ye shall know them."

*
*"Christianity is the religion founded by Paul, which replaces Jesus' Gospel with a Gospel about Jesus - a religion that should rather be called Paulinism." -- Dr. Wilhelm Nestle, Church Historian

*[ QUOTE]

The Roman Church uses the same NT gospels as Christians always had.  If there _really_ was a problem, the Great Schism would've happened hundreds of years sooner.

The religion of Jesus was Judaism.  The religion he gave people about him is Christianity.  It's an impossibility for a religion to be of and about Jesus at the same time.  (Jesus liked the gentiles and said they are God's people-the Jews did not agree, to name one of many examples)

----------


## Ronin Truth

> ????
> You haven't addressed my question. What makes the gospels truth if you reject the epistles? Why aren't the gospels nonsense as well? What is your measuring stick for Truth?


For me, it's Jesus and his hand picked and specifically chosen disciples/apostles vs NOT.  Paul is NOT.  Paul is on the side of Rome.

Does that address your question and make enough sense for you?

----------


## Ronin Truth

> He will never answer that question. There's no reason to ask him.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> So you can provide an example?


So can you read?

----------


## Ronin Truth

> [QUOTE=Ronin Truth;5883754]My view is that the Romans "cooked the books" as part of the hijacking of the religion *OF* Jesus. 
> 
> Which is why and how the NT ends up having 13 books of Paul.
> 
> *"By their fruits, ye shall know them."
> 
> *
> *"Christianity is the religion founded by Paul, which replaces Jesus' Gospel with a Gospel about Jesus - a religion that should rather be called Paulinism." -- Dr. Wilhelm Nestle, Church Historian
> 
> ...


It just is and was, what it is and was, as usual.

----------


## euphemia

Not really. Paul was not on the side of Rome. He was against Rome, and was included in the fellowship of the early church, which included original, hand-picked disciples.  If you look at the epistles that were written by original, hand-picked disciples (specifically Peter), you will see that he not only calls Paul a brother, but considers his writings to be Scripture.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Good questions. 
> 
> I think you (Ronin) claimed to be something of a Buddhist. Do you dislike Bhuddist writings by authors who are not Siddhartha Gautam?


Nah, the Buddhists are a pretty laid back bunch and never threaten me with spending eternity in Hell. I like that. 

The Dalai Lama very often makes a whole lot of sense.  I like that too.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Not really. Paul was not on the side of Rome. He was against Rome, and was included in the fellowship of the early church, which included original, hand-picked disciples. If you look at the epistles that were written by original, hand-picked disciples (specifically Peter), you will see that he not only calls Paul a brother, but considers his writings to be Scripture.



You may choose to believe what you wish.  I refuse to even consider being  a Paulinist/"Christian" (so called).  

Why?  

Because I like Jesus.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Your standard of truth is Google.


  Yours is Satan.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=ronin+is+wrong 500,000 google links proving Ronin is wrong.
> 
> You play a very silly game.


You have no idea.  I like it that way.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Yours is Satan.


As much as I strongly disagree with Sola on most things, a cursory glance at his post history would tell you your claim here is false.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> As much as I strongly disagree with Sola on most things, a cursory glance at his post history would tell you your claim here is false.


Ah, but I have way less than ZERO interest in his post history.

----------


## RJB

> Nah, the Buddhists are a pretty laid back bunch and never threaten me with spending eternity in Hell. I like that.


Not really.  You should know that using the name Ronin.  Zen Buddhism heavily that Japanese understanding of Budo.  Tell the Koreans and others who were occupied by the Japanese in WWII how laid back they were.  Buddhists are also currently embattled with Muslims in many places around the world.   

To the second point Naraka is pretty similiar.




> The Dalai Lama very often makes a whole lot of sense.  I like that too.


You are aware that anyone here can post a google bomb for "Dalai Lama is not Buddhist?" and get over a million links.

----------


## RJB

> You have no idea.  I like it that way.


Yes I do and I understand that you like it.  I just wish the other readers of this thread understood.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Not really. You should know that using the name Ronin. Zen Buddhism heavily that Japanese understanding of Budo. Tell the Koreans and others who were occupied by the Japanese in WWII how laid back they were. Buddhists are also currently embattled with Muslims in many places around the world. 
> 
> To the second point Naraka is pretty similiar.
> 
> 
> You are aware that anyone here can post a google bomb for "Dalai Lama is not Buddhist?" and get over a million links.


How does that compare with the historic "Christian"(so called) body counts?

You may also wish to compare and provide the historic Jesus body counts.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Ah, but I have way less than ZERO interest in his post history.


You clearly do have an interest in making claims about him, though, as you did it.  Traditionally, the ability to back up a claim separated the adults from the children.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Ah, but I have way less than ZERO interest in his post history.


You have zero interest in history too.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> You clearly do have an interest in making claims about him, though, as you did it. Traditionally, the ability to back up a claim separated the adults from the children.


  No, not really he just really seems to enjoy playing stupid childish accusation games.

----------


## RJB

> How does that compare with the historic "Christian"(so called) body counts?


Good question.

This is just Imperial Japan from 1937 to 1945.  I could look up the 2000+ years prior and other Buddhist countries as well.



> From the invasion of China in 1937 to the end of World War II, the Japanese military regime murdered near 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most probably almost 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war.


 https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Good question.
> 
> This is just Imperial Japan from 1937 to 1945. I could look up the 2000+ years prior and other Buddhist countries as well.
> https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM


How many people have died in the name of Christ, Christianity and Catholicism?

----------


## heavenlyboy34

QUOTE=Ronin Truth;5883988]No, not really he just really seems to enjoy playing stupid childish accusation games.[ QUOTE]

----------


## Ronin Truth

> QUOTE=Ronin Truth;5883988]No, not really he just really seems to enjoy playing stupid childish accusation games.[ QUOTE]


I'm calling you chartreuse.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

QUOTE=Ronin Truth;5883995]How many people have died in the name of Christ, Christianity and Catholicism?[ QUOTE]

Interesting you post that, as you were refuted there, too.  You're becoming like the military-when the failing starts, double down on the same failed tactics and hope it works this time somehow.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> I'm calling you chartreuse.


That whooshing sound you hear is the point going over your head.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> QUOTE=Ronin Truth;5883995]How many people have died in the name of Christ, Christianity and Catholicism?[ QUOTE]
> 
> Interesting you post that, as you were refuted there, too. You're becoming like the military-when the failing starts, double down on the same failed tactics and hope it works this time somehow.


Define refute.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> That whooshing sound you hear is the point going over your head.


That whooshing sound you don't hear is NOTHING.

----------


## RJB

> How many people have died in the name of Christ, Christianity and Catholicism?


We can throw numbers around all we want, but you miss the point.  I'm not attacking Buddhism or Buddhist cultures but rather pointing out there are scoundrels in every culture, religion, etc.

I used to like your quirky posts.  I didn't always agree but usually you post articles from all angles for discussion.  Lately your unhealthy obsession for Paul and dislike of Christians in general has been a bit annoying because you won't answer any refutations. You post some baloney about Paul being a into Mithraism, but the articles don't state that.

I'm wondering if you believe the "Paulist/Christians" (your term) on the forum are really a bunch of murdering, statist thugs pretending to be peaceful Libertarians, because that is what you seem to imply.

I think you know this and are purposefully making a mockery of this section--  Which it does need sometimes.  I'm just curious if you are truly playing a game or if you are completely out of your mind.  You can PM me, I'm genuinely curious about where you are coming from.

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## otherone

> For me, it's Jesus and his hand picked and specifically chosen disciples/apostles vs NOT.  Paul is NOT.  Paul is on the side of Rome.
> 
> Does that address your question and make enough sense for you?


No.  You have not addressed my question.  Upon what criteria do you choose what to believe in scripture?  Why are the gospels credible, and the epistles not credible?  You understand their source (Rome) is identical?

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## hells_unicorn

> No.  You have not addressed my question.  Upon what criteria do you choose what to believe in scripture?  Why are the gospels credible, and the epistles not credible?  You understand their source (Rome) is identical?


I don't put it past Ronin to be doing this just for his own amusement, but this thread has actually been somewhat instructive in revealing a common problem with a number of pseudo-Christian groups that either take Paul, James or another NT author or book out of the equation for reasons of a misguided attempt at opposing Rome (I oppose Rome, but not for any reason cited by conspiracy nuts that make up most of Ronin's sources).

If one uses good necessary consequence, which is a biblical application of the logical principle of the transitive property of congruence, it gets pretty difficult to dismiss Paul from the equation since Luke notes Paul's conversion in Acts 9, and Peter references Paul as a brother in the faith in 2 Peter 3:16. If Paul is on the side of Rome, aka the Roman Empire since Roman Catholicism didn't exist, it would reflect that Jesus made poor choices in selecting apostles, which as George Carlin would say "Doesn't sound like divine planning to me", let alone the implications for whether The Holy Spirit was actually informing the 12 apostles' decisions in taking on disciples to help spread The Gospel.

Regarding Ronin's points, all I can say is the following; there are people that actually study Christianity, and then there are people that just believe whatever pops up on a Google search. Call me skeptical, but the latter proposition doesn't sound like critical thinking to me.

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## heavenlyboy34

> Define refute.


 *refute*   [ri-fyoot]     





  Synonyms   Examples   Word Origin 

      verb (used with object), refuted, refuting.   1.to prove to be false or erroneous, as an opinion or charge. 

  2.to prove (a person) to be in error.

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## heavenlyboy34

> That whooshing sound you don't hear is NOTHING.

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## RJB

> *refute*   [ri-fyoot]     
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Synonyms   Examples   Word Origin 
> 
>       verb (used with object), refuted, refuting.   1.to prove to be false or erroneous, as an opinion or charge. 
> ...


Incase Ronin has to ask for an example, point out just about any post in the thread where someone responded to him.

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## Ronin Truth

> *refute*
> 
> 
> 
> [ri-fyoot] 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


define "prove to be false or erroneous".

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## erowe1

> For me, it's Jesus and his hand picked and specifically chosen disciples/apostles vs NOT.  Paul is NOT.  Paul is on the side of Rome.
> 
> Does that address your question and make enough sense for you?


No.

How do you even know anything about Jesus, or his hand picked disciples, or anything he or they said? Whenever you quote them you use the Gospels that you claim Rome cooked up. Why are Rome's Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, better representatives of the teachings of the real Jesus than Rome's Paul is?

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## Ronin Truth

> No.
> 
> How do you even know anything about Jesus, or his hand picked disciples, or anything he or they said? Whenever you quote them you use the Gospels that you claim Rome cooked up. Why are Rome's Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, better representatives of the teachings of the real Jesus than Rome's Paul is?


Neither impressed nor confused by your lame pagan Paulinist sophistry.

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## RJB

> Neither impressed nor confused by your lame *pagan* Paulinist sophistry.


This is an odd accusation coming from a supposed Buddhist.  What do you have against pagans?

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## Ronin Truth

> This is an odd accusation coming from a supposed Buddhist. What do you have against pagans?


 Jesus.  You are are merely unsuccessfully attempting to bat out of your league.

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## RJB

> Jesus.  You are are merely unsuccessfully attempting to bat out of your league.


For one thing your points have been refuted (see HB for the definition.) about the link between Paul and Mithraism.  The articles don't even mention Paul.

Second, I asked what* YOU*, as a self professed Buddhist, have against pagans?

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## Sola_Fide

> Neither impressed nor confused by your lame pagan Paulinist sophistry.


Ronin, you are confused.   That's why when others try to take you down the road of logical thinking like Erowe just tried to do, your head starts to explode.

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## euphemia

> Your standard of truth is Google.


And of course, everything on the internet is true.

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## erowe1

> Neither impressed nor confused by your lame pagan Paulinist sophistry.


It was a question. Do you have an answer?

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## heavenlyboy34

> Neither impressed nor confused by your lame pagan Paulinist *sophistry*.

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## Ronin Truth

> 



Luckily, Jesus is much smarter than you. 

Gotcher back JC!

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## Ronin Truth

> It was a question. Do you have an answer?


Of course I do.

Ask it again, stripped of the hoohaw verbiage this time.

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## Ronin Truth

> We can throw numbers around all we want, but you miss the point. I'm not attacking Buddhism or Buddhist cultures but rather pointing out there are scoundrels in every culture, religion, etc.
> 
> I used to like your quirky posts. I didn't always agree but usually you post articles from all angles for discussion. Lately your unhealthy obsession for Paul and dislike of Christians in general has been a bit annoying because you won't answer any refutations. You post some baloney about Paul being a into Mithraism, but the articles don't state that.
> 
> I'm wondering if you believe the "Paulist/Christians" (your term) on the forum are really a bunch of murdering, statist thugs pretending to be peaceful Libertarians, because that is what you seem to imply.
> 
> I think you know this and are purposefully making a mockery of this section-- Which it does need sometimes. I'm just curious if you are truly playing a game or if you are completely out of your mind. You can PM me, I'm genuinely curious about where you are coming from.


Ya just really have to love the Paulinist herd, group think capacity for self deception, denial and cognitive dissonance, even in the face of overwhelming historical Biblical evidence to the contrary.

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## Ronin Truth

> Yes I do and I understand that you like it. I just wish the other readers of this thread understood.


Some do, some don't, some .  It just is, what it is. <shrug>

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## Ronin Truth

> Yes I do and I understand that you like it. I just wish the other readers of this thread understood.


Some do, some don't, some . It just is, what it is. <shrug>

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