# Lifestyles & Discussion > Personal Health & Well-Being >  Butter or Substitute?

## sidster

Just what the subject says... do you "health" people recommend
butter or one of the many substitutes such as Smart Balance?

 


I specifically mention Smart Balance, as it has been the brand I've
been using for the past couple of years.

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## Dr.3D

Why would somebody want to go with an artificial substance to replace the real thing?
Wouldn't it be better to just avoid both if you feel there is something wrong with the real thing?

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## Ozwest

Olive oil is good.

$#@! margarine. Eat butter.

But, Olive oil is primo!

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## Ozwest

Did you know southern meditteraneans are the most long lived.

They don't eat butter.

They use olive oil gratiously.

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## Alex Libman

Depends on what your priorities are.  The substitute has a number of downsides, but if you can't lift your fat arse off the couch the reduction in calories might be more important for you.  (Or, better yet, some low fat hummus.  Or, better still, chew on some lettuce.)

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## sidster

> Why would somebody want to go with an artificial substance to replace the real thing?
> Wouldn't it be better to just avoid both if you feel there is something wrong with the real thing?


I agree with you if we are talking about organic butter vs the
substitute.  But when your typical butter (or conventional butter)
has all sorts of additives to make it keep longer, it becomes not
so healthy for consumption... here is a comparison between organic
and conventional butter from WeWantOrganicFood.com:




> But theres a difference between organic butter and "conventional" butter. Organic butter has not been processed, and therefore all its nutrients or vitamins are intact and undiminished. It may not last forever in the frig, but if you eat it, it wont last long either and your health will be better.
> 
> "Conventional" butter means the milk or cream has been homogenized (ground into small particles so that the cream cannot rise to the top) and/or pasteurized (essentially, cooked)  which means it has lost a good portion of its natural nutritional value. Conventional butter could contain preservatives, which is great for shelf life but bad for your digestion. Preservatives inhibit food, or in this case fat or oil, from going bad but also inhibit your bodys ability to break it down in order to obtain energy from it and to run or work adequately. Or, so that your kids can grow up healthy and strong.


It is one source.  I'm trying to get another view point on this topic
since I see so many RPFers into health food and healthy living, I
this was the perfect place to get new opinions on things.

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## amy31416

The fewer steps between you and a healthy cow's teat is always better (unless you're lactose intolerant.) Just make sure the cow lives with you or in your 'hood if you're going to go the raw, unprocessed route.

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## Renegades

I would just say the obvious choice is the one with less fat. cholesterol, etc, etc. If neither fits the criteria then choose something else.

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## Dr.3D

> "Conventional" butter means the milk or cream has been homogenized (ground into small particles so that the cream cannot rise to the top) and/or pasteurized (essentially, cooked)  which means it has lost a good portion of its natural nutritional value. Conventional butter could contain preservatives, which is great for shelf life but bad for your digestion. Preservatives inhibit food, or in this case fat or oil, from going bad but also inhibit your bodys ability to break it down in order to obtain energy from it and to run or work adequately. Or, so that your kids can grow up healthy and strong.


I find it difficult to believe butter would or could be made form homogenized milk because in order for the cream to be separated from the milk, it would have to be not homogenized.  When I read the butter package, it tells me what is in the butter.  I see no preservatives on the label.  

Here is what I read on my butter label:



> Pasteurized cream, salt
> contains milk


and on the unsalted butter



> Pasteurized cream
> contains milk


I am not concerned about pasteurization as quite often, I use the unsalted butter to make Ghee.  In order to make Ghee, one has to heat the butter to remove the milk solids.
The salted butter is another item I don't worry about pasteurization with because in order for me to can it, I have to heat it and make it ready for canning.  I do can quite a bit of butter.   Put up around five pounds last month.

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## Ozwest

> The fewer steps between you and a healthy cow's teat is always better (unless you're lactose intolerant.) Just make sure the cow lives with you or in your 'hood if you're going to go the raw, unprocessed route.


Great cow analogy Amy. Have we covered all bases?

I live in Dairy country.

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## Roxi

margarine is literally one molecule away from plastic....


not only that but it was originally used in turkey plants to "fatten them up" but they all started dying from it so they revamped it and now they sell it to humans



no i don't know if thats true, that what i was told but this is what i found on wiki




> The key to slowing margarine sales (and protecting the established dairy industries), however, emerged as restricting its color. Margarine naturally appears white or almost white: by forbidding the addition of artificial coloring-agents, legislators found that they could keep margarine off kitchen tables. Bans on coloration became commonplace around the world and endured for almost 100 years. It did not become legal to sell colored margarine in Australia, for example, until the 1960s.
> 
> [edit] Margarine in the USA
> 
> In the United States, the color bans, drafted by the butter lobby, began in the dairy states of New York and New Jersey. In several states, the legislature enacted laws to force margarine manufacturers to add pink colorings to make the product look unpalatable, but the Supreme Court struck down New Hampshire's law and overruled these measures. By the start of the 20th century, eight out of ten Americans could not buy yellow margarine, and those that could had to pay a hefty tax on it. Bootleg colored margarine became common, and manufacturers began to supply food-coloring capsules so that the consumer could knead the yellow color into margarine before serving it. Nevertheless, the regulations and taxes had a significant effect: the 1902 restrictions on margarine color, for example, cut annual U.S. consumption from 120 million to 48 million pounds (54,000 to 22,000 tons). However, by the end of the 1910s, it had become more popular than ever[citation needed].
> 
> With the coming of World War I, margarine consumption increased enormously, even in unscathed regions like the United States. In the countries closest to the fighting, dairy products became almost unobtainable and were strictly rationed. The United Kingdom, for example, depended on imported butter from Australia and New Zealand and the risk of submarine attack meant that little arrived. Margarine became the staple spread, and butter a rare and expensive luxury.[citation needed]
> 
> The long-running rent-seeking battle between the margarine and dairy lobbies continued: in the United States, the Great Depression brought a renewed wave of pro-dairy legislation; the Second World War, a swing back to margarine. Post-war, the margarine lobby gained power and, little by little, the main margarine restrictions were lifted, the last state to do so being Wisconsin in 1967. However, some vestiges of the legal restrictions remain in the U.S.: the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act still prohibits the retail sale of margarine in packages larger than one pound.[2]

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## amy31416

> Great cow analogy Amy. Have we covered all bases?
> 
> I live in Dairy country.


I will not make a joke about getting to fourth base when we are discussing livestock.

I'm above that. Really.

(no I'm not)

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## amy31416

> margarine is literally one molecule away from plastic....


Actually, margarine is plastic, in the sense that it's maleable, but if you're going for the chemical definition of plastic, as in a polymer like PET, it actually isn't one molecule away--you'd have a hell of a time in an organic synth lab trying to turn margarine into PVC pipe. 

That said, I actually wrote an article years ago on structural differences and lost it when my laptop got smoked, so since people here aren't likely very interested in the details, to sum up--olive oil>butter/ghee>liquid oils>margarine/cricso.

Newly synthesized molecules always have the potential to mess with you a bit, there's a reason that we should still be eating mostly the same diet we've eaten for thousands of years.

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## revolutionary8

> Actually, margarine is plastic, in the sense that it's maleable, but if you're going for the chemical definition of plastic, as in a polymer like PET, it actually isn't one molecule away--you'd have a hell of a time in an organic synth lab trying to turn margarine into PVC pipe. 
> 
> That said, I actually wrote an article years ago on structural differences and lost it when my laptop got smoked, so since people here aren't likely very interested in the details, to sum up--olive oil>*butter/ghee*>liquid oils>margarine/cricso.
> 
> Newly synthesized molecules always have the potential to mess with you a bit, there's a reason that we should still be eating mostly the same diet we've eaten for thousands of years.


how are ghee/butter and all "liquid oil" classified as essentially "the same"? It would seem that ghee is quite different from butter, and sesame or sunflower or hemp or ____ oil, would be quite different from canola oil, or even olive oil.

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## amy31416

> how are ghee/butter and all "liquid oil" classified as essentially "the same"? It would seem that ghee is quite different from butter, and sesame or sunflower or hemp or ____ oil, would be quite different from canola oil, or even olive oil.


I didn't say they were the same, but ghee is made from butter and is a variation of butter. There are all kinds of oils: walnut oil, peanut, sesame, safflower--all have varying stability, flavors and purposes. If you're looking for a list, they do exist on the 'net. 

Google is your friend.

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## sidster

> Google is your friend.


Not too sure about that.  They've been censoring me.

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## Gideon

But I do like olive oil and expeller-pressed coconut oil with salt.

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## Zippyjuan

The only difference between organic butter and regular butter is that organic butter must be made from organic milk.  

Did you know that margerine used to require a prescription to use?

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## buffalokid777

The only people who should eat margarine and trans fats, are those who would like to see their arteries calcify so they can die from a stroke.....

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## ronpaulblogsdotcom

I use butter but in limited amounts. Just enough to make food not stick to the pan and a tiny bit on bread.

But if you can get that Canola Oil stuff that is probably better than margarine. 

I avoid all margarine and shortening. If I run into a recipe calling for it I have to figure out some replacement. There is none in my house now.

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## Ozwest

Olive oil is the best of all oils for your health.

Southern Medditeraneans live longer.

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## sidster

> I use butter but in limited amounts. Just enough to make food not stick to the pan and a tiny bit on bread.
> 
> But if you can get that Canola Oil stuff that is probably better than margarine. 
> 
> I avoid all margarine and shortening. If I run into a recipe calling for it I have to figure out some replacement. There is none in my house now.


Interesting note, most posts concentrate on using "butter" for
cooking.  I think there were early posts suggesting using olive
oil.  But do none of you use butter just for consumption?  As
in butter on bread or butter on veggies maybe?

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## Ozwest

> Interesting note, most posts concentrate on using "butter" for
> cooking.  I think there were early posts suggesting using olive
> oil.  But do none of you use butter just for consumption?  As
> in butter on bread or butter on veggies maybe?


Try toasted bread with olive oil and a smear or garlic.

Bueno!

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## Ozwest

For years we were told to eat polyunsaturated fats.

Now...

It turns out to be total B.S.

Bring on good tasting foods our Grandparents ate!

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## Dr.3D

> But do none of you use butter just for consumption?  As in butter on bread or butter on veggies maybe?


I like butter on toast just before I spread raspberry preserves on top of it.  It is very good on toasted English muffins and crumpets. I like butter on bread, rolls and etc.   I put it on rice, spinach, sweet corn, sometimes I put it on beans.  It is good on most cooked vegetables. I even put melted butter on the top of fresh baked bread to help keep the loaf from drying out.  To me, butter is not just for cooking. 

Butter is very versatile in the ways it can be used.

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## dannno

> Why would somebody want to go with an artificial substance to replace the real thing?
> Wouldn't it be better to just avoid both if you feel there is something wrong with the real thing?





Whoa, whoa whoa.....


People people people. 


Smart Balance IS "the real thing". It's just a blend of vegetable oils and whatnot. A great vegan alternative to butter.


It is not "margarine". Margarine is made from partially hydrogenated vegetable oil (shortening) (aka Trans Fatty acids) and it is terrible for you. Margarine is NOT the "real thing".



Butter is perfectly acceptable, but so is smart balance. The thing is I would go for whichever you can get organic, because non-organic butter commonly contains pesticides, hormones, anti-biotics, blood and puss. Organic butter does not contain any of these.



Butter tastes better on toast, and is probably better in certain dishes. 

Certain deserts probably work better with butter, but others may work better with smart balance. Certain cookie recipes _might_ hold up better with smart balance, but might taste better with butter.

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## Dr.3D

> Smart Balance IS "the real thing". It's just a blend of vegetable oils and whatnot. A great vegan alternative to butter.


So let me see if I understand what you are saying.

First there was butter.  Then came along all of the alternatives.
So, if there is an alternative to butter, then how can that alternative be the real thing?  If it is not butter, then it is not the real thing, it is something made to take the place of the real thing.

Why would a vegan want anything as a substitute for butter if they never knew the taste of butter?  It is obvious, they are seeking to find something they can use to take the place of butter.  If something is supposed to take the place of another thing, then it is not the original thing and therefore an imitation.

An imitation alternative is not the real thing.

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## Mckarnin

I like fat so you are getting your money's worth in my reply:

Butter...eat it unless you have an issue with dairy. The kids and I eat bright yellow butter that is raw from pastured cows who live 20 minutes away. (Edited to add that I eat butter on potatoes, toast, muffins, veggies, etc...love the stuff, not just for cooking...)

My husband does have moderate dairy issues so I use palm oil shortening in recipes that he's eating that call for butter. 

I use olive oil in low/no heat applications.

I get lard from a local farmer that is not hydrogenated or bleached and use it to fry eggs, in tamales and other places where a little pork flavor is good. 

I use a little expeller pressed peanut oil and sesame oil for oriental cooking. 


If you want to read up on fats from a POV that I agree with click: http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/index.html

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## dannno

> So let me see if I understand what you are saying.
> 
> First there was butter.  Then came along all of the alternatives.
> So, if there is an alternative to butter, then how can that alternative be the real thing?  If it is not butter, then it is not the real thing, it is something made to take the place of the real thing.
> 
> Why would a vegan want anything as a substitute for butter if they never knew the taste of butter?  It is obvious, they are seeking to find something they can use to take the place of butter.  If something is supposed to take the place of another thing, then it is not the original thing and therefore an imitation.
> 
> An imitation alternative is not the real thing.


I didn't say Smart Balance was butter, I just said it is real food, so it is still "the real thing". It is a vegetable oil spread. There are good uses for it. I don't consider margarine to be real food because it is pumped with hydrogen, which causes a more stable oil at the expense of our body's heart and digestive tract. It is toxic, causes cancer, heart disease and diabetes. It is what McDonalds and most fast food restaurants put in their fryers. Go ahead, leave some Partially Hydrogenated Vegetable Shortening (crisco, etc) out in your garage over the summer. No bugs will eat it, no animals will eat it. It will not rot, it will not go bad, mold will not grow on it. Do you really want to put something like that in your body? No.

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## Zippyjuan

What is in Smart Balance?
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1278830



> Nutrition Facts:
> Serving Size:             1 TBSP (14g)
> Servings Per Container:   32
> Calories:                 80 (100% from fat, of course)
> 
> Total Fat:                2.5g (14% DV)
> Saturated Fats:           2.5g (13%)
> Polyunsaturated fats:     2.5g
> Monounsaturated fats:     3.5g
> ...


The key with butter, along with everything else, is how much you consume and what else you eat.  My grandparents always cooked with lard and butter (a can of lard sat next to the stove all the time).  They were also eating home grown vegetables and lean meats and were very active physically.   My grandfather lived to 97 and his wife was 93. I consume way more peanut butter than butter myself but use olive oil for most of my cooking.

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## Dr.3D

> What is in Smart Balance?
> http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1278830
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				Ingredients: Natural oil blend (soy, palm, canola, olive), water, contains less than 2% of the following: salt, whey, vegetable monoglycerides and sorbitan ester of fatty acids (emulsifiers), soybean lecithin, potassium sorbate, lactic acid (to protect freshness), natural and artificial flavor, vitamin E (dl-alpha tocopheryl acetate), calcium disodium EDTA, vitamin A palmitate, beta-carotene for color.


Wow, everything I ever wanted in 'real food'.

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## dannno

> Wow, everything I ever wanted in 'real food'.


Actually all of those ingredients are just fine, perfectly natural. (edit: see better alternative below)

Remember, I never said there is anything wrong with butter, but it does have higher amounts of saturated fat. Fats are not bad for you, they are good for you. But some fats are better than others and it is important to maintain a good balance. Smart balance, peanut oil, avocados, etc, are all great places to find unsaturated fats to help balance your saturated fat intake. Hence the name "smart balance".

If you eat a lot of meat, it would be better to eat more smart balance and make sure you are getting plenty of good fats. 

I don't eat meat very often at all, so I can eat butter and cheese without worrying too much.

But don't kid yourself, you guys talking smack on vegetable oil should really make sure you are getting some good fats with your 'not as good' fats.

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## dannno

Personally I don't have any smart balance or anything like that in my fridge at the moment. When I do have it, I actually prefer organic "earth balance", and I actually just realized that the ingredients differ slightly from the smart balance.



Ingredients: expeller pressed natural oil blend (soybean palm fruit, canola and olive), filtered water, pure salt, natural flavor (derived from corn, no MSG, no alcohol, no gluten), soy protein, soy lecithin, lactic acid (non-dairy, derived from sugar beets), and beta-carotene color (from natural source).


It's just a vegetable oil spread. Nothing to be afraid of.

Right now I have butter in my fridge, but I mostly use peanut oil, olive oil, vegetable oil and coconut oil for cooking.

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## Dr.3D

When I think of real food, I think about reading the label pertaining to what is in it and when I read:

Apple or Pasteurized, Homogenized Milk or carrot or potato I notice there isn't anything else in those foods.  When I read a label that has things listed I would find in a chemistry lab, I tend to think of artificial food.  Most everything you read on that label would have to have gone though a lot of processing to obtain.  Yes, it is mostly natural food, but the processing is the killer.  Potassium sorbate and calcium disodium EDTA are not usually found in a package you just buy and take home to eat.

Oh yum, we are having potassium sorbate and disodium EDTA for dinner tonight.  Sounds just great doesn't it? 

As for fats, yes there are some that are better than others.  We must also understand why some are considered better than others.  

We have been told for so long about cholesterol and how it is bad for us, most people just go along with all of that bad science.

Arterial plaque is the result of not having enough vitamin C in the diet. If you check the amount of vitamin C in the blood of animals that produce it in their livers, they have a huge amount more than people do in their blood. Somehow along the line, humans lost the ability to produce vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid) in their livers.

The minimum RDA of vitamin C the government recommends is just enough to keep you from dieing. It is nowhere enough to keep you well though. Nearly all of the people in the world are suffering from a mild case of chronic scurvy.

Vitamin C is required to produce collagen and that is required to repair the arterial walls when they become damaged from having blood pumped through them. When their is not enough collagen, the body responds by repairing the damage with a surrogate substance called Lipoprotein(a) (also called Lp(a)).

Yes, Lp(a) is a cholesterol but not all cholesterol is harmful. Lp(a) may be bound up with L-Lysine and L-Proline and then it will not be able to stick to the damaged arterial walls.

Please view this video of two-time Nobel laureate, Dr. Linus Pauling speaking on this subject. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5dba4DK0e4

I presently take sixteen grams of vitamin C, eight grams of L-Lysine and two grams of L-Proline divided up into four doses every day. This is probably more vitamin C than is required but it is my understanding if you can take it and still not have loose bowels, then you are probably needing it.

When starting out taking vitamin C, you have to be careful not to start taking too much too fast. Slowly build up the amount you take over a month or two. If you get loose bowels, reduce the amount till that clears up and then slowly increase the amount till you get loose bowels again.

The same goes for stopping taking vitamin C, you need to do so gradually. Your body gets used to expelling the excess vitamin C and if you stop too quickly, it will continue to expel the vitamin C at the rate it was and you will have serious problems from doing it that way. Always taper off the amount you take. Never stop taking it all at once!

If you are interested in further information about how Linus Pauling developed a cure for heart disease, please search the web and learn more about it.

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## dannno

> Oh yum, we are having potassium sorbate and disodium EDTA for dinner tonight.  Sounds just great doesn't it? 
> .


Yes, but those ingredients are not in Earth Balance, just smart balance (even there, all are in the "less than 2% category"). The "worst offender" for earth balance would have to be soy lecithin, I am guessing, and that is just part of a soy bean so I am ok with it. All I'm saying is that just because it is a vegetable oil blend/spread, doesn't make it bad (unless it has partially hydrogenated oils). Vegetable oil is good stuff. On the other hand, when you buy butter, I hope you know what cow you are getting it from. Factory cows have much worse things in their milk than processed foods.

The rest of your post is quite informative.

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## amy31416

> Yes, but those ingredients are not in Earth Balance, just smart balance (even there, all are in the "less than 2% category"). The "worst offender" for earth balance would have to be soy lecithin, I am guessing, and that is just part of a soy bean so I am ok with it. All I'm saying is that just because it is a vegetable oil blend/spread, doesn't make it bad (unless it has partially hydrogenated oils). Vegetable oil is good stuff. On the other hand, when you buy butter, I hope you know what cow you are getting it from. Factory cows have much worse things in their milk than processed foods.
> 
> The rest of your post is quite informative.


I wouldn't worry too much about soy lecithin, there are some studies that show that it may lower cholesterol and raise your HDL level.

When it comes to molecules, the interesting thing about trans-fatty acids is that they are exactly the same as normal fatty acids (cis conformation) molecularly, it's just that they are oriented differently, which apparently makes them "stickier" in the arteries. Goes to show you just how much a tiny difference can make and we should be careful with processed foods. 

I was talking to a vegetarian once who was all into non-GM, organic foods--and she ate one of those fake vegetarian hot dogs. I mean, think about how much processing goes into turning vegetable matter into something resembling meat. That stuff repulses me. Just grill a portobello mushroom and pretend it's a burger--at least that tastes good and doesn't creep me out.

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## dannno

> I was talking to a vegetarian once who was all into non-GM, organic foods--and she ate one of those fake vegetarian hot dogs. I mean, think about how much processing goes into turning vegetable matter into something resembling meat. That stuff repulses me. Just grill a portobello mushroom and pretend it's a burger--at least that tastes good and doesn't creep me out.


Well veggies need to get their protein somewhere. I love tofu, but I also eat these things, they have about 24g of Protein in each dog!!!




Ingredients: organic tofu (water, organic soybeans, magnesium chloride, calcium chloride), vital wheat gluten, expeller pressed, non-genetically engineered canola oil, water, herbs and spices, textured wheat protein, Full Sale Amber Ale (water, malted barley, hops, yeast), granulated garlic.


Not the best ingredients, but not the worst either. I mean, I know processing is bad, but basically an animal is a food processor. They take more food and resources in than they make and they produce waste material. My body is a lot better off when I eat mostly vegetarian, but I'm a full time student and I work full time so I don't have time to be a really good vegetarian who cooks good veggies and lentils/beans all the time.

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## amy31416

Dannno, you've put the nail in the coffin for this vehement carnivore, I will retire to my lab to create a new line of foods made _entirely_ of meat to cater to carnivorians:

Mockoli: fake broccoli made from beef by-products.

Porkcini mushrooms: fake mushrooms made from all sorts of pork weirdness!

Meatshakes!: liquified organ meats mixed with frozen dairy products. Excellent source of iron.

Meatini: Martini with a chunk of stew-meat on a toothpick rather than an olive.

Meatbread: meatloaf--why re-invent the wheel? Imagine pastrami on meat. Mmmm.

Meat roll-ups: really thin beef jerky in a convenient snack roll.

For dessert? Sweetbreads and blood pudding.

Y-U-M

And that's just the beginning.

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## Dr.3D

> Dannno, you've put the nail in the coffin for this vehement carnivore, I will retire to my lab to create a new line of foods made _entirely_ of meat to cater to carnivorians:


LOL, what a turn around. Vegetables made from meat so meat eaters can make believe they are eating vegetables.   ROFL

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## freelance

> I use butter but in limited amounts. Just enough to make food not stick to the pan and a tiny bit on bread.
> 
> But if you can get that Canola Oil stuff that is probably better than margarine. 
> 
> I avoid all margarine and shortening. If I run into a recipe calling for it I have to figure out some replacement. There is none in my house now.


80+% (last time I checked) of canola oil comes from GM sources.

My choice is butter (and ghee--easy to make), olive oil and peanut oil for heating and olive oil, safflower oil, walnut oil, etc. for using right out of the bottle.

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## Ozwest

I don't know about the U.S., but here in Oz, the price of meat, pork, fish, and lamb has sky-rocketed!

There is another good reason to eat less meat.

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## Fox McCloud

butter all the way...margarine tastes nasty IMHO, and I don't think it's really that great for you--why improve on something God has already made (butter)? Well, he didn't directly make it, but it's made from a naturally occurring product to begin with.

the only time margarine is good is when making cookies, as it helps them stay together better.

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## HonestyInMedicine

> Olive oil is good.
> 
> $#@! margarine. Eat butter.
> 
> But, Olive oil is primo!


Margarine is like liquid plastic in your blood stream. Avoid it like the PLAGUE. I would use butter sparingly and lots of cold pressed extra virgin olive oil which is GOOD for you.

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