# Lifestyles & Discussion > Personal Prosperity >  Buy Metals or Farm Land?

## McChronagle

I've done a lot of research on gold/silver and have been able to find many theories and opinions on the subject. My next venture will be into farmland which I know nearly nothing about. Some basic questions are, where can I find land for a decent value (still pretty cheap) that can be grown on for a majority of the year. This is sure to be more of an opinion but I like to hear what anybody has to say about it. If anybody knows any sites with good information/research or good auction/land sale sites I would love to check them out.

My main question is regarding timing (the million dollar question). People like Jim Grant seem to think there might be a bubble in farm land (specifically Iowa). With interest rates at record lows, I fear that many farmers are buying up land with leverage and artifically bidding up the prices. This along with a long list of subsidies makes me very cautious about purchasing land at this point. So what does everybody think? In a hyperinflationary scenario, would gold rise more than land? In a deflationary scenario where the banks are forced to fail and fractional reserve banking collapses, would land go up priced in gold? If interest rates rise and farmers lose their subsidies, would price of land fall a substantial amount? These are just a few of my concerns, I'm looking for any input. Thanks

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## Icymudpuppy

I would suggest central America.

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## TruthisTreason

Here's a site: http://www.landandfarm.com/search/Ke...land-for-sale/

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## Acala

I have nothing to say about what might happen with land prices.  I wouldn't buy to speculate.  I would buy to live on and produce.  If I had the dough, I would buy some land right now on the western end of the great plains (or maybe in the Palouse) with access to water, and set it up as irrigated pasture for a small cow/calf operation.

With the collapse of the Eurozone, there might be a couple years of new life in the dollar, but ultimately those dollars are going bye bye.  Productive land is about as good a thing to convert those doomed FRNs into as I can think of.

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## Steven Douglas

I'm in the same boat as you.  For me it's not an either/or, but both and in what order. 

I think farmland is rarer than gold or silver, tied to something we all need more than money itself, and while it is prone to speculation and bubbles, and the prices of the commodities produced can be manipulated in the aggregate, the land itself is not as easily manipulated as PM's, primarily because there is no substitute for good farmland.   

Socio-economic engineers (political and politico-economic) who just can't keep their manipulative tentacles to themselves, love thinking in aggregate terms only, and like to meddle in human affairs and real human lives on the macro-scale. They have proved their ability to make anything count as money, but they can't make anything count as food, or what is required to produce it.  And when it comes down to the worst case scenarios, when the huddled masses in densely populated areas find store shelves emptied, access to arable fertile land is access to survival itself, giving extreme advantages of farmland over PM's.    

In terms of tangible wealth, regardless of transient prices or market dynamics, for me it's:

1) The Good Earth (farmland specifically)
2) Hard Commodities

Criteria for farmland would include: 
a) the ability to operate independently from all grids for an extended period of time (water, fuel, electricity, etc.,)
b) a low profile with minimal proximity to major political and economic centers (the powers that be of which can confiscate everything from you with impunity in any time of crisis)
c) I don't know why the emphasis on year-round growing. Many look to more southern and mid-western farmland in more temperate regions for that reason, but North Dakota and other border states (proximity to flight if we're really screwed) have extremely rich, fertile farmland available at extremely reasonable prices. Moreover, the people in those regions are much hardier in terms of what it takes for long term survival.

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## Kelly.

why will your next adventure be into farmland if you know nothing about it?
sounds like a quick way to lose money, imo.

also, you might want to have midwest farmland soil checked BEFORE buying it. the overuse of chemicals as made some farm land completely dependent on fertilizers (ie there is no life in the soil, and the residual chemicals prevent new life from taking hold)

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## McChronagle

Sorry I should have clarified, I am not looking at land as a speculative instrument or a way to make money right now. I am looking at this almost purely as a survival necessity where I would need to live off the land and sell/share whatever is left over. I am concerned about the timing aspect just because I have very little cash to work with at the moment and need to get the most bang for my buck.

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## oyarde

I pretty much agree with Acala , having some metals and a few acres of tillable land to grow on is a good thing at this point for anyone . If you can , do a little of both , I do, cannot hurt.

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## McChronagle

> c) I don't know why the emphasis on year-round growing. Many look to more southern and mid-western farmland in more temperate regions for that reason, but North Dakota and other border states (proximity to flight if we're really screwed) have extremely rich, fertile farmland available at extremely reasonable prices. Moreover, the people in those regions are much hardier in terms of what it takes for long term survival.


I've lived through enough winters in my life in a nice comfortable home. I'd rather not have to live through them in a shoddy cabbin lol. I would also prefer to be able to grow fresh stuff year round instead of preserving for the winter. I guess I can't be too picky though.

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## Kotin

cant grow fruit trees in silver and gold.. the value of farmland trumps all.

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## oyarde

> cant grow fruit trees in silver and gold.. the value of farmland trumps all.


 Food and water have a way of doing that.

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## Kelly.

id say the value of a firearm trumps farmland.

if you have farmland/food and no gun, and i have no farmland/food and a gun, i now have farmland, food and a gun.

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## tbone717

Precious metals are an investment, and speculative to a degree.  Granted they are not speculative in the way that a stock is, but there still is speculation involved (i.e. you purchase the precious metal with the hopes that the price of it will go up over time).  One thing that is unique about gold & silver is that they are a constant, where the dollar is the variable.  Therefore an ounce of gold today is still an ounce of gold next year, but its value in dollars may change either up or down.  I own a lot of gold & silver, so I think they are a good storer of value.

Farm land on the other hand is an asset, provided you are using it as such.  If you rent out the farmland and are generating income from it, then it is an asset.  If you sit on it, hoping that the value of the land will go up over time then it is not an asset, but an investment like precious metals.  

Personally, I would buy farm land if, and only if, my intention was to generate an income from it that would exceed any liability that I have incurred from its purchase.

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## oyarde

> id say the value of a firearm trumps farmland.
> 
> if you have farmland/food and no gun, and i have no farmland/food and a gun, i now have farmland, food and a gun.


Oh , I think it goes without saying , each of us will have to be ready to defend what is yours.

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## Acala

> id say the value of a firearm trumps farmland.
> 
> if you have farmland/food and no gun, and i have no farmland/food and a gun, i now have farmland, food and a gun.


Maybe.  Alternatively, if someone has farmland and no gun, I might make a deal with them for my squad to provide security in exchange for some food.  Then they have farmland, food, and a security force.  And if you come around looking to take something that doesn't belong to you, bad things happen to you and the security force now has your gun.  Co-operation beats predation.

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## McChronagle

Just found this from Ron Paul's The Case for Gold

"Closely related to real estate is agriculture. Speculation in real estate in the past 10 years-speculation resulting from inflation and taxation by the government- has casued the price of prime farmland to be bid up to levels higher than prevailed 10 years ago. One serious consequnce of this has been the almost total inability of new, small farmers to buy farms, and of older small farmers to retain farms. High land values, while giving many farmers paper wealth, have raised property taxes exorbitantly, and have forced more and more small farmers to sell out to larger competitors. The result has been the growth of agribusiness and euthanasia of the family farmer.

During the transition to a gold system, interest rates and land values would both fall, the former primarily because of lower inflation expectations, the latter  primarily ecause there would be far less demor land  as snninflation hedge. A parlelmay be found in the 19th century. From 1880 to 1890, immediately after the return to the gold standard, the number of farms in the U.S. increased by over 500,00, the number of acres on these farms by almost 90 million, farm productivity by 10 percent, and the value of farm output by over $800 million.

During this time, however, farm commodity prices were falling, an effect of the transition to gold that many fear. But wholesale prices for the goods farmers used were falling as well, faster than were prices for the goods they produced. The real income of farmers-and of all workers- was actually rising during this period, unlike, for example, the past 10 years. The transition to a sond monetary system, while it may adversely affect a few farmers and real estate holders, will enormously benefit most, and will allow more entry into farming."

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## Dr.3D

Watch out for the property taxes.   You had better know in advance how much it is going to cost you to rent that land from the township.

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## Acala

> Watch out for the property taxes.   You had better know in advance how much it is going to cost you to rent that land from the township.


That IS a problem.  In its death spasm, big government is going to tax everything it can get its hands on.  But at some point, if people at large resist, it won't be able to collect.

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## McChronagle

> "The transition to a sond monetary system, while it may adversely affect a few farmers and real estate holders, will enormously benefit most, and will allow more entry into farming."


This ^^ and the property tax issue are the biggest reasons I do not think buying now is so beneficial. Maybe a very small parcel to get myself established would be acceptable.

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## Shane Harris

1. Land
2. Lead
3. Silver

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## Kelly.

> Maybe.  Alternatively, if someone has farmland and no gun, I might make a deal with them for my squad to provide security in exchange for some food.  Then they have farmland, food, and a security force.  And if you come around looking to take something that doesn't belong to you, bad things happen to you and the security force now has your gun.  Co-operation beats predation.


i was specifically replying to the farmland trumps metals.
i agree with you btw

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## Zippyjuan

> Sorry I should have clarified, I am not looking at land as a speculative instrument or a way to make money right now. I am looking at this almost purely as a survival necessity where I would need to live off the land and sell/share whatever is left over. I am concerned about the timing aspect just because I have very little cash to work with at the moment and need to get the most bang for my buck.


Do you have any experience with farming?  It is very difficult and lots of work. You have to deal with water and weather and pests.  It is possible for your crops to be ruined for a couple of years in a row and would need money to be able to survive that as well as to buy new seed and equipment.  Do lots of research before jumping in. My grandparents farmed and it was not an easy living.  My own parents did their own modest gardening but have given that up because it has become too difficult to get things to grow (changing climate) and the water which was going to water the plants has become too expensive.  It is much cheaper for them to buy produce at the store now.

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## McChronagle

I have experience growing plants indoors but never actually farmed. I will not be buying until i've done my due diligence and I know exactly what I will be doing with it. This is just preliminary research so I can get ideas and insights to look into further. It might be cheaper to buy produce now but I'm trying to plan for a time with different circumstances

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## Dr.3D

> I have experience growing plants indoors but never actually farmed. I will not be buying until i've done my due diligence and I know exactly what I will be doing with it. This is just preliminary research so I can get ideas and insights to look into further. It might be cheaper to buy produce now but I'm trying to plan for a time with different circumstances


You can always do what I did... I have 20 acres and those with the equipment, farm it and pay me a little for the use of the land.  It does help cover the cost of the property taxes.

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## McChronagle

Thats exactly what I have been thinking of doing. Hell, if things get bad enough I'd house a family of farmers and let them farm the land as long as they can farm enough food for me too.

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## Acala

> Do you have any experience with farming?  It is very difficult and lots of work. You have to deal with water and weather and pests.  It is possible for your crops to be ruined for a couple of years in a row and would need money to be able to survive that as well as to buy new seed and equipment.  Do lots of research before jumping in. My grandparents farmed and it was not an easy living.  My own parents did their own modest gardening but have given that up because it has become too difficult to get things to grow (changing climate) and the water which was going to water the plants has become too expensive.  It is much cheaper for them to buy produce at the store now.


Farming isn't easy.  But it is easier than starving.

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## GeorgiaAvenger

Here is the problem with farming:

Foreign countries, specifically South American countries, use dirt cheap labor and government subsidizing to make their crop prices low and easily beat American competition. 

Now the U.S. government does sometimes engage in tariffs and often subsidies, but it is still hard for most farmers to make it. But if we get around to creating a free market in agriculture, you can say goodbye to American farming in most key crops.

There are ways to make money from the government. But if that is against your ethical standards, don't do it. And if you do, be aware that is can be taken away quickly so I would caution against a long term investment.

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## GeorgiaAvenger

Now that I just saw your clarification:

If you want to be a survivalist, you don't need a big farm. You need several gardens and a place for animals, but not a commercial type deal.

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## KingNothing

> why will your next adventure be into farmland if you know nothing about it?


Buy something I know nothing about?  What could go wrong!

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## KingNothing

> Now that I just saw your clarification:
> 
> If you want to be a survivalist, you don't need a big farm. You need several gardens and a place for animals, but not a commercial type deal.


Right.  And you also need to spend a lot of time actually learning about these things.  This isnt the sort of stuff you just jump right into.  People spend a lifetime acquiring the skills and knowledge required to be productive with this stuff.

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## GeorgiaAvenger

> Right.  And you also need to spend a lot of time actually learning about these things.  This isnt the sort of stuff you just jump right into.  People spend a lifetime acquiring the skills and knowledge required to be productive with this stuff.


Yep. You need supplies and tools and time management. There are a host of other skills and knowledge needed, like woodworking, mechanics, weather common-sense, butchering, etc.

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## McChronagle

> Now that I just saw your clarification:
> 
> If you want to be a survivalist, you don't need a big farm. You need several gardens and a place for animals, but not a commercial type deal.


I would be fine with just an acre or two. Anything bigger I would have no plans on farming myself and would only consider if I thought it would be practical to rent.

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## pacelli

Regarding your farmland consideration- If you want some serious production with farmland independent of the "standard agriculture practices grid", look into permaculture.  No synthetic fertilizers, functional design of land, and high emphasis on off-grid thinking, and long term sustainability (real sustainability, not the $#@!ing corporate buzzword).  





If you suspect economic collapse, then you will buy the land later with your gold. It worked for years in this country and it will work again.  So it depends on what is more important to you right now.

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## Barrex

Without reading anything except title: 
FARM LAND: producing value
metal is just storing it.

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## McChronagle

> If you suspect economic collapse, then you will buy the land later with your gold.


This is my main concern. I know I have a lot of learning to do and I always do as much research as I can before getting into something especially something as difficult as this. I did tons of research for my past growing experiences and it's paid off. I'm not concerned about learning things that can be read in a book or learned through experience/practice. I posted this in the econ forum to gauge the timing. I guess my title should have been, should I buy more gold/silver with the expectations of farm land becoming cheaper in gold terms or should I buy land expecting it to become more valuable in terms of gold once the collapse comes?

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## PierzStyx

If you plan to become a totally self-sufficient farmer, then farm land. Otherwise gold and silver so you can buy stuff from the farmers.

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## Kelly.

ive been in a VERY similar situation, and my suggestion is to buy silver.

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## Kluge

> cant grow fruit trees in silver and gold.. the value of farmland trumps all.


Yep. Just made a bid on 10 acres with an old farmhouse, beautiful giant pole barn, pond and elaborate chicken coop today. Cash offer, keep your fingers crossed for us.

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## oyarde

> Yep. Just made a bid on 10 acres with an old farmhouse, beautiful giant pole barn, pond and elaborate chicken coop today. Cash offer, keep your fingers crossed for us.


 Make sure you save me a couple of fish in that pond now

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## oyarde

> You can always do what I did... I have 20 acres and those with the equipment, farm it and pay me a little for the use of the land.  It does help cover the cost of the property taxes.


 I have a 7 1/2 acre field I lease , covers the property taxes and then some , but if I need to , I can always break the agreement , year to year and till it and plant it myself for food .....

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## oyarde

> Buy something I know nothing about?  What could go wrong!


 Meh , I have done worse , I suppose and made it work . I had kids , and knew nothing about that , got married and knew nothing about women except they smell & look better than I and are more fun to sleep with than a rifle , bought stock before I knew what I was doing , made some, lost some etc etc

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## Kluge

> I have a 7 1/2 acre field I lease , covers the property taxes and then some , but if I need to , I can always break the agreement , year to year and till it and plant it myself for food .....


That's a great idea of what to do with property until you want/need it for yourself.




> Meh , I have done worse , I suppose and made it work . I had kids , and knew nothing about that , got married and knew nothing about women except they smell & look better than I and are more fun to sleep with than a rifle , bought stock before I knew what I was doing , made some, lost some etc etc


 Never stop "experimenting."

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## blabam

> Do you have any experience with farming?  It is very difficult and lots of work. You have to deal with water and weather and pests.  It is possible for your crops to be ruined for a couple of years in a row and would need money to be able to survive that as well as to buy new seed and equipment.  Do lots of research before jumping in. My grandparents farmed and it was not an easy living.  My own parents did their own modest gardening but have given that up because it has become too difficult to get things to grow (changing climate) and the water which was going to water the plants has become too expensive.  It is much cheaper for them to buy produce at the store now.


There are other ways of farming. People just have to look for them. The way we have farmed the last 100's of years will disappear because of soil infertility/ peak oil.

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## Kluge

Oh--another side benefit of the property we bid on--Amash's district.

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## Arklatex

You can find some deals on land, never let them know you're in love with it or they'll wait for you to pay full price.  

Make it reasonable and look for land with River Access.   If it's outside of the city you can find some good steals.

Say you'll pay X amount per acre, say 5k under what they have it listed at.  Let them thinking about it awhile and see if they don't get back to you.

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## jbauer

I'm a farm kid.  Land prices are so bloated right now you'd have to be a fool to buy it.  The price of corn + the drought this year will only compound the problem.  If you're looking at a couple acres to do something with go for it.  If you're looking for 100s of acres to rent out you're in way over your head.

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## psi2941

i convinced my parents to buy a 25 acre farm in Michigan. as for investment and food production, its freak in hard. The weed plants is uncontrollable unless you want spend 100% of your time farming. even with a 20k tractor and 3k sprayer and crap load of man hours were loosing the war on weed. After we spray they die for like a month then just regrow right back. As for economics,  you can't be economically viable just producing food. since the market dictates food prices, this mega food corporation just produces food soo cheap. As to loan out the farm land around here the rent for farmland is 50-60 dollars an acre. So as an "investment" its a bad idea, as for just to have sakes and preparing for SHTF its great.

we paid 5k per acre but it came with a house and a huge pole barn. you should pay no more then like 2k per acre.

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## oyarde

I get about $135 per acre , low price , really , gentelemens agreement , for years , I went $100  , my guy retired , so went with another friend of the family.Called another friend who leases some , asked what he was paying , made my offer under , accepted immediately .Well below market price  , still .Year to year only , though .

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## oyarde

I would never sell tillable land for 2 k an acre , but , years ago , considered buying some in that range ... an ounce of gold may be that after the election ...

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## Carson

*Buy Metals or Farm Land?* 


YES!


YES!


YES!

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## TheTexan

Guns tend to hold their value fairly well too

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## oyarde

> Guns tend to hold their value fairly well too


 Kind of goes without saying , just saying , Yeah , if you have any of the other two , you have to have what you suggest , but since you brought it up , you also have to have the most terrible of all instincts , the one to use it if needed. That can be difficult and many , may hesitate ...

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## enoch150

If you're buying for a SHTF hyperinflation scenario and you're only buying a few acres, I don't see the point of waiting. Think about what you're weighing against a few thousand dollars one way or the other.

I'll suggest starting with a book like "Security from five acres".

Then figure out what you want to grow. When you're buying plants, you'll see things like "grows in zones 3-7". That refers to the USDA Plant Hardiness Zones. You might decide you don't want to move someplace where stuff grows year round because a wider variety of food can be obtained in zones that only grow food 10 months / year. And there are other considerations, like access to water, local regulations, and proximity to large population centers. 

Here's the old USDA Zone map:


And the new map, which is better in some ways and worse in others:


You also don't have to limit yourself to just stuff you can grow. You could also raise things like fish or chickens, both of which are fairly lucrative and can pick up the slack in the non growing season. Chickens, especially, are both easy and lucrative, if you move near a Tyson or Purdue plant and don't mind the stink. 

You might want to read my post here, which outlines some of the things my parent's considered when making a move to a small farm.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...82#post3944782

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## angelatc

> cant grow fruit trees in silver and gold.. the value of farmland trumps all.


Yes, but when the government starts seizing assets, the farmland is harder to hide.

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## Dianne

> Yep. Just made a bid on 10 acres with an old farmhouse, beautiful giant pole barn, pond and elaborate chicken coop today. Cash offer, keep your fingers crossed for us.


Whatever you do, don't touch a foreclosure !!

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## Dianne

> i convinced my parents to buy a 25 acre farm in Michigan. as for investment and food production, its freak in hard. The weed plants is uncontrollable unless you want spend 100% of your time farming. even with a 20k tractor and 3k sprayer and crap load of man hours were loosing the war on weed. After we spray they die for like a month then just regrow right back. As for economics,  you can't be economically viable just producing food. since the market dictates food prices, this mega food corporation just produces food soo cheap. As to loan out the farm land around here the rent for farmland is 50-60 dollars an acre. So as an "investment" its a bad idea, as for just to have sakes and preparing for SHTF its great.
> 
> we paid 5k per acre but it came with a house and a huge pole barn. you should pay no more then like 2k per acre.


Get a couple of goats, they will eat all the weeds and everything else for that matter... just be sure they can't get near your garden.

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## angelatc

> Right.  And you also need to spend a lot of time actually learning about these things.  This isnt the sort of stuff you just jump right into.  People spend a lifetime acquiring the skills and knowledge required to be productive with this stuff.


Yes, but he still has a lifetime to do it.  He's young, and the internet literally takes years off the learning curve.

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## angelatc

> Whatever you do, don't touch a foreclosure !!


In Michigan, that's about all there is on the market unless you want to pay upwards fo $200k.

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## Kluge

> In Michigan, that's about all there is on the market unless you want to pay upwards fo $200k.


Yep.

Everything we're looking at is a foreclosure, and we're going more for land than a swanky house.

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## pacelli

If you mow the weeds you can turn them into compost and have them start working for you.

Weeds are an indicator of what the soil needs.

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## Dianne

You buy a foreclosure at your own risk..    90% of all foreclosures have been done so illegally and with false and forged documents..   People are going to start suing to get their homes back, and your neck will be on the line; as Fannie Mae provides a warranty deed that covers only the short time between the date of foreclosure and the date of sale... nothing before and nothing after.     We have a register of Deeds in North Carolina, Jeff Thigpen, who has just sued the big banks and Fannie Mae because they have placed clouds on titles of real estate that will take years, if ever, to correct.        Also, there is no statute of limitations on fraud.

The 49 state attorney generals with the FDIC, Comptroller of Currency, Federal Reserve just fined the big banks 26 billions in exchange for prosecution.     The fines are being used to pay victims of false documents, robo-signing, forgery, etc... but the payout does not effect the person's right to take his or house back or sue the bank and/or Fannie Mae individually.    If they do sue the bank and/or Fannie Mae, the first thing they will do is file a Lis Pendens on their home; which you now believe is your home but it might not be...   A court of law would have to determine that.

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## Tudo

Farmland where? 

I have clients who can spend many many millions and they're farmers. In the last few months one of them spent a lot of money upgrading his collection and passing on land in his area. Told me it's higher than he wants to pay.

But it all depends on where. To ask that question without any specificity can't be answered specifically.

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## PaulConventionWV

> Whatever you do, don't touch a foreclosure !!


Why not?

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## psi2941

> Get a couple of goats, they will eat all the weeds and everything else for that matter... just be sure they can't get near your garden.


i have thought of that but, of the 25 acre we have 3 acres of blue berry, and i don't want them to eat the blue berries



> In Michigan, that's about all there is on the market unless you want to pay upwards fo $200k.


move to the west part of the state
http://www.realtor.com/realestateand...6_M47016-98368
http://www.realtor.com/realestateand...6_M40457-07236


this is 33 acres
http://www.realtor.com/realestateand...6_M43570-03014


this one is by you, http://www.realtor.com/realestateand...ex=MI544081357

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## NaturalMystic

I just bought 23 acres and want to name it something incorporating the Revolution logo any ideas or designs?

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## enoch150

> Why not?


I was wondering the same thing. I would think title insurance handled those problems.

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## osan

> Yes, but when the government starts seizing assets, the farmland is harder to hide.


Thus underscoring the extremity of the jam in which we now find ourselves.  Were this a free nation, such worries would not darken our doorsteps.  The truly depressing and infuriating thing about this is the fact that it is so only because people appear to believe that it is unavoidable.

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## anaconda

> I've done a lot of research on gold/silver and have been able to find many theories and opinions on the subject. My next venture will be into farmland which I know nearly nothing about. Some basic questions are, where can I find land for a decent value (still pretty cheap) that can be grown on for a majority of the year. This is sure to be more of an opinion but I like to hear what anybody has to say about it. If anybody knows any sites with good information/research or good auction/land sale sites I would love to check them out.
> 
> My main question is regarding timing (the million dollar question). People like Jim Grant seem to think there might be a bubble in farm land (specifically Iowa). With interest rates at record lows, I fear that many farmers are buying up land with leverage and artifically bidding up the prices. This along with a long list of subsidies makes me very cautious about purchasing land at this point. So what does everybody think? In a hyperinflationary scenario, would gold rise more than land? In a deflationary scenario where the banks are forced to fail and fractional reserve banking collapses, would land go up priced in gold? If interest rates rise and farmers lose their subsidies, would price of land fall a substantial amount? These are just a few of my concerns, I'm looking for any input. Thanks


My g/f is buying fixed up inexpensive foreclosures with no money down in other states (we are in CA. Her properties so far are in MS, GA, and TN) and uses a property manager to rent to section 8 renters (rent guaranteed by U.S. government). They all generate positive cash flow. Pretty crazy. The returns on investment are very large. A friend of mine I used to work with who  is now in real estate turned her on to it. He gets a small commission out of the deal. He would be happy to explain it to anyone who is interested. The glut of bank foreclosures probably won't last forever. Folks with a job and a decent credit score should be taking a look at this.

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## anaconda

> You buy a foreclosure at your own risk..    90% of all foreclosures have been done so illegally and with false and forged documents..   People are going to start suing to get their homes back, and your neck will be on the line; as Fannie Mae provides a warranty deed that covers only the short time between the date of foreclosure and the date of sale... nothing before and nothing after.     We have a register of Deeds in North Carolina, Jeff Thigpen, who has just sued the big banks and Fannie Mae because they have placed clouds on titles of real estate that will take years, if ever, to correct.        Also, there is no statute of limitations on fraud.
> 
> The 49 state attorney generals with the FDIC, Comptroller of Currency, Federal Reserve just fined the big banks 26 billions in exchange for prosecution.     The fines are being used to pay victims of false documents, robo-signing, forgery, etc... but the payout does not effect the person's right to take his or house back or sue the bank and/or Fannie Mae individually.    If they do sue the bank and/or Fannie Mae, the first thing they will do is file a Lis Pendens on their home; which you now believe is your home but it might not be...   A court of law would have to determine that.


Wouldn't title insurance figure in here?

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## anaconda

> i convinced my parents to buy a 25 acre farm in Michigan. as for investment and food production, its freak in hard. The weed plants is uncontrollable unless you want spend 100% of your time farming. even with a 20k tractor and 3k sprayer and crap load of man hours were loosing the war on weed. After we spray they die for like a month then just regrow right back. As for economics,  you can't be economically viable just producing food. since the market dictates food prices, this mega food corporation just produces food soo cheap. As to loan out the farm land around here the rent for farmland is 50-60 dollars an acre. So as an "investment" its a bad idea, as for just to have sakes and preparing for SHTF its great.
> 
> we paid 5k per acre but it came with a house and a huge pole barn. you should pay no more then like 2k per acre.


What about growing livestock instead of plants? Aren't grazing animals happy to eat weeds?

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## Kluge

> What about growing livestock instead of plants? Aren't grazing animals happy to eat weeds?


I'd think that goats would do the trick there.

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## enoch150

> i convinced my parents to buy a 25 acre farm in Michigan. as for investment and food production, its freak in hard. The weed plants is uncontrollable unless you want spend 100% of your time farming. even with a 20k tractor and 3k sprayer and crap load of man hours were loosing the war on weed. After we spray they die for like a month then just regrow right back. As for economics,  you can't be economically viable just producing food. since the market dictates food prices, this mega food corporation just produces food soo cheap.


Things may be harder in Michigan because of the climate and local regulations, but in general, if you can't make money on a small farm with relatively little work (after getting a system set up), you're doing it wrong. I know small farmers who make six figures working 20-30 hours / week.

Only a fool would compete head to head with corporate farmers. But corporate farmers, by their nature, can't offer every farm product and service. It sounds like your parents are trying to sell the wrong product to the wrong people.

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## angelatc

> Thus underscoring the extremity of the jam in which we now find ourselves.  Were this a free nation, such worries would not darken our doorsteps.  The truly depressing and infuriating thing about this is the fact that it is so only because people appear to believe that it is unavoidable.


Well, if I may go a little AF here - I'll be older, my kids will be out of the house, and I will have little to lose.

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## anaconda

> I'd think that goats would do the trick there.


It seemed a tad peculiar that the thread is so skewed toward raising crops on farmland, as opposed to livestock.

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## angelatc

> You buy a foreclosure at your own risk..    90% of all foreclosures have been done so illegally and with false and forged documents..   People are going to start suing to get their homes back, and your neck will be on the line; as Fannie Mae provides a warranty deed that covers only the short time between the date of foreclosure and the date of sale... nothing before and nothing after.     We have a register of Deeds in North Carolina, Jeff Thigpen, who has just sued the big banks and Fannie Mae because they have placed clouds on titles of real estate that will take years, if ever, to correct.        Also, there is no statute of limitations on fraud.
> 
> The 49 state attorney generals with the FDIC, Comptroller of Currency, Federal Reserve just fined the big banks 26 billions in exchange for prosecution.     The fines are being used to pay victims of false documents, robo-signing, forgery, etc... but the payout does not effect the person's right to take his or house back or sue the bank and/or Fannie Mae individually.    If they do sue the bank and/or Fannie Mae, the first thing they will do is file a Lis Pendens on their home; which you now believe is your home but it might not be...   A court of law would have to determine that.


90% of all foreclosures have been done so illegally and with false and forged documents?  Where did you get that statistic?  

Michigan already settled their MERS issues.  And I think it's silly to think that people who didn't pay their mortgages for 2+ years will suddenly have the money 4 - 5 years later to hire a lawyer to get involved in an extended, expensive legal battle to get "their" houses back...especially when said house is worth so much less now than it was when they bought it.

The whole robosig thing is a distraction.  The bottom line for me is that these people didn't pay their mortgage, and therefore they lost the house.  I feel really bad for them, because I'm in a similar place now, but in no way do I view this as my house.

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## angelatc

> It seemed a tad peculiar that the thread is so skewed toward raising crops on farmland, as opposed to livestock.


Do you think that perhaps it's because we city dwellers don't want to deal with the whole slaughter thing?

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## angelatc

> If you mow the weeds you can turn them into compost and have them start working for you.
> 
> Weeds are an indicator of what the soil needs.


I've always heard that weeds were bad to put in compost because...well, because they're weeds.  I'm not being snarky - I really thought that.

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## angelatc

> That's a great idea of what to do with property until you want/need it for yourself."


If you can get one of the carriers to put a cell tower in your land....they pay rent of $10,000-$20,000 per year.

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## Kluge

> If you can get one of the carriers to put a cell tower in your land....they pay rent of $10,000-$20,000 per year.


No $#@!? I'd be down for that.

I might up my offer for the latest property we're looking at...I just need to be done with this phase ASAP.

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## angelatc

> No $#@!? I'd be down for that.
> 
> I might up my offer for the latest property we're looking at...I just need to be done with this phase ASAP.


Is it a short sale?  They take an unreasonably long time.

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## anaconda

> Do you think that perhaps it's because we city dwellers don't want to deal with the whole slaughter thing?


That's a good thought. But most livestock growers don't do their own slaughtering, I don't think. On the other hand, I'm a city dweller. Also, animals can be kept for milk and eggs, without routine slaughter.

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## anaconda

> I was wondering the same thing. I would think title insurance handled those problems.


I just saw this on the internets:

http://realestate.msn.com/article.as...entid=25826900

includes the passage:

_It makes sense to worry, experts say. But the likelihood that you’d lose a home on such a technicality is slim, says Stuart F. Ebby, a real-estate attorney and principal at the Philadelphia firm of Hangley, Aronchick, Segal & Pudlin.

“People who have bought a home through a foreclosure — if they have a title insurance policy, which I presume they would have — they should be OK,” Ebby says.

“The title insurance insures the purchaser that all of the technical aspects have been done properly. If someone comes along later and says, ‘Your title to this home is flawed and something in the foreclosure was not done right,’ they’d have a perfect claim against the title company,” he says.

Most homebuyers get title insurance when they purchase a property. Policies use a standard form, issued by the American Land Title Association, the organization of title insurers. Unless exceptions are noted in your policy, which is rare, Ebby says, the insurance covers any costs of defending your claim to the home and you’d be reimbursed for the value of the home if someone were to prove you’re not the legitimate owner.

    MSN Money: Foreclosure crisis enters new phase

Title companies may have to go to court in some cases, an industry spokesman recently acknowledged. But even if they lose, the homeowners won’t be on the hook, Kurt Pfotenhauer, the title association’s CEO, said in a statement. In any case, he said, “It is unlikely that a court will take property from an innocent current homeowner and return it to a previous homeowner who failed to make payments on the loan subject to the foreclosure.”_

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## angelatc

> You can find some deals on land, never let them know you're in love with it or they'll wait for you to pay full price.  
> 
> Make it reasonable and look for land with River Access.   If it's outside of the city you can find some good steals.
> 
> Say you'll pay X amount per acre, say 5k under what they have it listed at.  Let them thinking about it awhile and see if they don't get back to you.


Dealing with banks is a whole different game. They don't actually negotiate.   We bid on a property that was listed at $45,000.  We bid $40,000.  They countered at - I am not making this up-$44,900.  We said no thanks, and left the game.  

A week later, they dropped the price to $39,000.   No, we didn't go back, because i found out that I was the only one that loved the house.  It horrified the rest of my family.

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## oyarde

> Dealing with banks is a whole different game. They don't actually negotiate.   We bid on a property that was listed at $45,000.  We bid $40,000.  They countered at - I am not making this up-$44,900.  We said no thanks, and left the game.  
> 
> A week later, they dropped the price to $39,000.   No, we didn't go back, because i found out that I was the only one that loved the house.  It horrified the rest of my family.


Well , they are just too picky    , for 39 k , I would have loved it .

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## psi2941

> What about growing livestock instead of plants? Aren't grazing animals happy to eat weeds?


yea we got some chickens but were worried about winter, and storing them plus the feed cost during the winter.




> Things may be harder in Michigan because of the climate and local regulations, but in general, if you can't make money on a small farm with relatively little work (after getting a system set up), you're doing it wrong. I know small farmers who make six figures working 20-30 hours / week.
> 
> Only a fool would compete head to head with corporate farmers. But corporate farmers, by their nature, can't offer every farm product and service. It sounds like your parents are trying to sell the wrong product to the wrong people.


were going into blue berries and chestnuts. Yea corporate farmers like those in iowa (1k+ acres) don't exist but there are plenty of 400 acre blue berry farmers around here and they dictate the blue berries per pound and current market prices of 2 dollars per pound and my land can only at its best year produce 8k thats only 16k, not enough to live on. of course this year there's a drought so maybe 4k tops of blue berry.

but honestly to the other people starting out, look into chestnut farming

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## Kluge

> Is it a short sale?  They take an unreasonably long time.


HUD.

They start accepting bids on Monday, and it'll probably be open for a week. It's actually a quite nice house for a HUD--we've seen some disasters.

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## jclay2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOiBZa51SZo

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## oyarde

> yea we got some chickens but were worried about winter, and storing them plus the feed cost during the winter.
> 
> 
> 
> were going into blue berries and chestnuts. Yea corporate farmers like those in iowa (1k+ acres) don't exist but there are plenty of 400 acre blue berry farmers around here and they dictate the blue berries per pound and current market prices of 2 dollars per pound and my land can only at its best year produce 8k thats only 16k, not enough to live on. of course this year there's a drought so maybe 4k tops of blue berry.
> 
> but honestly to the other people starting out, look into chestnut farming


 I can pick up a 40 lb bag of Hen layer feed for about $10.70 at the farm store , Mix in half and half with some cracked corn.

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## oyarde

For about , ea 8 good layers , you can just about get enough eggs out of them to sell and break even on the feed.

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## Roy L

> Dealing with banks is a whole different game. They don't actually negotiate.   We bid on a property that was listed at $45,000.  We bid $40,000.  They countered at - I am not making this up-$44,900.  We said no thanks, and left the game.  
> 
> A week later, they dropped the price to $39,000.   No, we didn't go back, because i found out that I was the only one that loved the house.  It horrified the rest of my family.


Should have offered them $35K.

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## jbauer

> Do you think that perhaps it's because we city dwellers don't want to deal with the whole slaughter thing?


No, most slaughtering of large animals (not birds) is done at a meat market where the butchering is done for you based on hanging weight of the animal.

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## jbauer

If you have to ask this question you're not ready to grow your own food.  Start small and make sure you like doing it before you jump in with both feet its a year long process to start/seed, weed, harvest and preserve.  

Weed's are organic matter.  Plants need organic matter to grow.  However, if the weeds have seeded or will when rotting you'll be seeding your garden with weeds.  




> I've always heard that weeds were bad to put in compost because...well, because they're weeds.  I'm not being snarky - I really thought that.

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## Mundane

> i convinced my parents to buy a 25 acre farm in Michigan. as for investment and food production, its freak in hard. The weed plants is uncontrollable unless you want spend 100% of your time farming. even with a 20k tractor and 3k sprayer and crap load of man hours were loosing the war on weed. After we spray they die for like a month then just regrow right back. As for economics,  you can't be economically viable just producing food. since the market dictates food prices, this mega food corporation just produces food soo cheap. As to loan out the farm land around here the rent for farmland is 50-60 dollars an acre. So as an "investment" its a bad idea, as for just to have sakes and preparing for SHTF its great.
> 
> we paid 5k per acre but it came with a house and a huge pole barn. you should pay no more then like 2k per acre.


Farmland for 2k per acre? I'm jealous. I looked into buying, but at 15 to 48k per acre in my neck of the woods, plus exorbitant taxes should the land not produce, it's out of the question.

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## psi2941

> Farmland for 2k per acre? I'm jealous. I looked into buying, but at 15 to 48k per acre in my neck of the woods, plus exorbitant taxes should the land not produce, it's out of the question.


at 15k to 48k, that acre better have the perfect ph for what ever ur growing plus. better have an automatic irrigation system.
I should be more specific, you can buy land that can be farm land for around 2k. that means the land is overgrown with brushes or trees and may not be smooth. if you want farm land that is already tilled and flattened that should cost around 5k. I heard in iowa prices are around 6-8k per acre. 

side note may i ask where you live for "farm" land to command that high. the only thing i can think of is the mediterranean environment only found in europe or CA and if thats the case, its a speical case because Mediterranean farmland is very limited.

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## Mundane

> at 15k to 48k, that acre better have the perfect ph for what ever ur growing plus. better have an automatic irrigation system.
> I should be more specific, you can buy land that can be farm land for around 2k. that means the land is overgrown with brushes or trees and may not be smooth. if you want farm land that is already tilled and flattened that should cost around 5k. I heard in iowa prices are around 6-8k per acre. 
> 
> side note may i ask where you live for "farm" land to command that high. the only thing i can think of is the mediterranean environment only found in europe or CA and if thats the case, its a speical case because Mediterranean farmland is very limited.


I live on an island on the US border in Canada not that far from Seattle. One could argue that the prices are high because the area has the mildest climate in the country, but the neighboring US islands command those farmland prices, too. The land we looked at had no automatic irrigation system. The one for 48k had no land improvements at all and needed extensive clearing. Most farmers here are not able to make a living farming full time. There is a vineyard here that seems to do well with its wine sales,though.

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## pacelli

> I've always heard that weeds were bad to put in compost because...well, because they're weeds.  I'm not being snarky - I really thought that.


I'm not reading any snarkiness, I thought that myself! =)  If you do a hot compost pile, which is flipped every few days with a pitchfork, weed seeds are literally cooked out of existence.  The method itself is called the Berkeley Method, here are instructions on how to do it:  

http://vric.ucdavis.edu/pdf/compost_rapidcompost.pdf



Animals are a good way to generate some high value compost, although the internal temperature of livestock is not high enough to burn out the weed seeds that they eat.

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## XNavyNuke

> Sorry I should have clarified, I am not looking at land as a speculative instrument or a way to make money right now. I am looking at this almost purely as a survival necessity where I would need to live off the land and sell/share whatever is left over. I am concerned about the timing aspect just because I have very little cash to work with at the moment and need to get the most bang for my buck.


It will require some work, but I suggest you go with a farmhouse and land. Not a thousand acres! Look around in rural areas for farmhouses without large equipment sheds. Farmers buy land and often they have a small home on them. They cultivate the ground and rent out the house. See if you can find one to do that, or maybe buy it outright off of them. Negotiate to get an option to buy contiguous land and a first refusal on the original surrounding farm ground, should the farmer pass away.

XNN

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