# Lifestyles & Discussion > Personal Prosperity >  Silver: The Time to Buy is NOW (and I mean TONIGHT)

## tmosley

Ok, so we've got a few bits of craziness going on right now.  

1st, there is a CFTC investigation ongoing into silver market manipulation. http://www.gata.org/node/8466

2nd, GATA has information from a credible whistleblower (he predicted market action two days before it happened, laying out exactly how it would happen, to the CFTC). http://www.kitco.com/reports/KitcoNews20100325B.html

3rd, silver has been viciously suppressed the last few days.  http://www.kitco.com/charts/livesilver.html

4th, APMEX is having a killer sale, with 16 products selling for 79 cents over spot in any quantity, including half ounce silver!  http://www.apmex.com/Category/520/Si...rket__New.aspx

This $#@! just got real.  I'm buying with both hands right now.  Wish I had filed my taxes earlier, I'd already have my massive refund (had a house fire last year that wiped out most of my worldly possessions, was significantly underinsured, but the loss will wipe out most of my tax burden for last year).  Rest assured, the second I get it, it will be used to buy SILVER, unless it has already skyrocketed.

Might want to prepare for the S to HTF if this is taken seriously.  If it is, JPM WILL FAIL, or be completely nationalized.  If it isn't, it signals the definite end of America.

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## nateerb

Yeah, not good. I had to read everything a few times. My guess is TPTB try to keep this low-key.



This is the bit of silver I carry in my pocket when I am out of the house. Two Liberty dollars and one Peace. May have to go quickly, without access to a bugout bag, with the cash you got on hand. That cash may have a useful lifespan of mere hours.

But yeah, this story is not good. Wait and see I guess.

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## squarepusher

silver was $15 a few weeks back!

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## TCE

> silver was $15 a few weeks back!


With the sale on Apmex 1/2 ounces, that's essentially what it is, since normally it is more over spot than $0.79. Sucks I'm out of disposable income, but I envy everyone who waited.

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## Ron_Paul_Knows

I can't for the life of me understand why PM's went down after the healthcare bill passed.  Seems like further evidence that it's manipulated.

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## puppetmaster

ty Im in

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## devil21

> I can't for the life of me understand why PM's went down after the healthcare bill passed.  Seems like further evidence that it's manipulated.


Easy.  The large tax increases in Obamacare breathed a sigh of relief into people holding dollar assets.  The feds can kick the can a little longer on fresh revenue and it made the dollar look much more attractive than the euro, considering the beating the euro is taking lately over the Greece problem.  Remember, the DX isn't an indicator of the strength of the dollar, just the strength relative to other currencies.

I think we'll see silver drop a little more, plus spring and summer are historically times when PMs pull back.  Now isn't a bad time to buy silver if you have the FRNs to spend though.  The recent T auctions haven't been very pretty so there may be some pressure on the dollar again soon.  Im sticking with a cost averaging model.

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## Ron_Paul_Knows

> Easy. The large tax increases in Obamacare breathed a sigh of relief into people holding dollar assets. The feds can kick the can a little longer on fresh revenue and it made the dollar look much more attractive than the euro, considering the beating the euro is taking lately over the Greece problem. Remember, the DX isn't an indicator of the strength of the dollar, just the strength relative to other currencies.


Thanks for the explanation.  I guess it's not alway's a conspiracy, LOL.  I still think in general that $#@!'s probably rigged though.

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## devil21

> Thanks for the explanation.  I guess it's not alway's a conspiracy, LOL.  I still think in general that $#@!'s probably rigged though.


Oh no doubt there's a huge amount of manipulation in PMs, and nearly every other market these days.  That manipulation tends to be more systematic than in response to any one development though.

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## Dr.3D

Since it is my thought that the FED uses JP Morgan and a couple of other banks to control the price of metals, I seriously doubt the CFTC will do anything about it.    People have been showing them evidence for more than a decade now and they always have failed to do anything about it.   My guess is they (the CFTC) have been told it is a matter of national security and not to do anything about it.

Of course, this has not stopped me from buying silver.

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## tmosley

> Easy.  The large tax increases in Obamacare breathed a sigh of relief into people holding dollar assets.  The feds can kick the can a little longer on fresh revenue and it made the dollar look much more attractive than the euro, considering the beating the euro is taking lately over the Greece problem.  Remember, the DX isn't an indicator of the strength of the dollar, just the strength relative to other currencies.
> 
> I think we'll see silver drop a little more, plus spring and summer are historically times when PMs pull back.  Now isn't a bad time to buy silver if you have the FRNs to spend though.  The recent T auctions haven't been very pretty so there may be some pressure on the dollar again soon.  Im sticking with a cost averaging model.


Don't count on seasonality to drive down PM prices any more.  Seasonality was caused by the Indian wedding season in the past, with India being the largest buyer of gold.  They have been overtaken by the Chinese, and haven't been buying much this winter, and as such, there is not much Indian demand that can go away.  Chinese demand is non seasonal.

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## the count

> Since it is my thought that the FED uses JP Morgan and a couple of other banks to control the price of metals, I seriously doubt the CFTC will do anything about it.    People have been showing them evidence for more than a decade now and they always have failed to do anything about it.   My guess is they (the CFTC) have been told it is a matter of national security and not to do anything about it.
> 
> Of course, this has not stopped me from buying silver.


There is a saying in German that I think exists in English as well: The fish stinks from he head. 

Meaning that if JPM & Co. have the tacit backing by the government/fed, which I am pretty sure they have, nothing will come out of any inquiry by the CFTC.

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## tmosley

> There is a saying in German that I think exists in English as well: The fish stinks from he head. 
> 
> Meaning that if JPM & Co. have the tacit backing by the government/fed, which I am pretty sure they have, nothing will come out of any inquiry by the CFTC.


That may be true, but if the wider market becomes aware of the manipulation, it will lose its effect, as "metal vigilantes" buy it up at suppressed prices and demand delivery, no matter how low they slam the prices.

All this whistleblower has to do is make posts to a public blog predicting market action the same way that he did for the CFTC head, and eventually traders will catch on in a big way.

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## NiceGoing

Thanks for the heads up.!

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## ctiger2

and now you got Eric Sprott trying to buy the IMF Gold and they tell him No.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/imf...its-gold-stash

What's up with that? I thought they wanted to sell it?

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## tmosley

Amazing.  This whole damn thing is finally unraveling before our eyes.

The only question is, will the regulators do anything about it?  Or will they force the market to take corrective action?

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## Dforkus

Buy silver if you want, lots of worse things you can do with your money..

but, the hysterics are unwarranted..

silver is always volatile, 5%-10% swings in a week is not unusual, 

no reason to expect to see significantly higher volatility in the next month..

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## tmosley

> Buy silver if you want, lots of worse things you can do with your money..
> 
> but, the hysterics are unwarranted..
> 
> silver is always volatile, 5%-10% swings in a week is not unusual, 
> 
> no reason to expect to see significantly higher volatility in the next month..


Yeah sure, the unwinding of a 30 year old regime of price suppression in a market with a market cap lower than many individual stocks won't have any effect on the prices

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## Thrashertm

and last year Zero Hedge discovered that SLV was committing fraud and didn't the bars they claimed to...the market yawned.

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## tmosley

> and last year Zero Hedge discovered that SLV was committing fraud and didn't the bars they claimed to...the market yawned.


Markets yawn when they don't have a way to make money off of news.  This bit of news is 100% actionable, especially if the fellow who blew the whistle would publicly post the signals preceding the manipulation.  This would allow people to get on the other side of that trade, and blow it out of the water.  There is nothing you could really do with information saying that SLV doesn't have silver bars, save to open a short position against SLV and hedge with silver elsewhere, which is an expensive proposition.

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## TCE

Also, isn't the gold price going to skyrocket if everyone finds out that China has been stocking up on gold?

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## psi2941

> Also, isn't the gold price going to skyrocket if everyone finds out that China has been stocking up on gold?


therefor you will never findout until its too late

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## tmosley

That is a good reason to buy.  If it turns out that China isn't buying gold (perhaps you find yourself in some alternate universe), then you can just sell the gold.  That news is one way action, because the market (for some reason) doesn't expect China to keep doing what it has been doing, stocking up in secret.

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## psi2941

> That is a good reason to buy.  If it turns out that China isn't buying gold (perhaps you find yourself in some alternate universe), then you can just sell the gold.  That news is one way action, because the market (for some reason) doesn't expect China to keep doing what it has been doing, stocking up in secret.


i disagree i think were only the hand full of the smart ones that can see this coming like the housing crisis. Everyone is just clue less maybe including china.

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## Defining Obscene

Wow @ the emails. I don't expect anything to happen though, gatekeepers have to make their money somehow.

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## TCE

> therefor you will never findout until its too late


If I own gold, and it skyrockets, how am I too late? 

tmosley: If they aren't, why would I sell the gold? I'll just hold it for 4 or 5 years minimally, and if the crash never happens, I can sell then.

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## Dr.3D

As predicted earlier, the CFTC refuses to do anything about the problem.
http://www.gata.org/node/8472

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## tmosley

> If I own gold, and it skyrockets, how am I too late? 
> 
> tmosley: If they aren't, why would I sell the gold? I'll just hold it for 4 or 5 years minimally, and if the crash never happens, I can sell then.


I agree.  It's kind of tough to predict when "never" will get here.  The point is that you can sell the gold if you need access to resources, as there aren't any new forces that are going to be acting to suppress the POG.

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## Dr.3D

Seems like this may be more than a coincidence.

Time may tell.... they caught the person who did it.  Now will they tell the truth about how and why it happened?

http://www.gata.org/node/8477

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## theoakman

> Also, isn't the gold price going to skyrocket if everyone finds out that China has been stocking up on gold?


China is the world's largest gold producer and the Government in China can acquire gold in the market from those producers without affecting the open market price of Gold at all.

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## ctiger2

> Seems like this may be more than a coincidence.
> 
> Time may tell.... they caught the person who did it.  Now will they tell the truth about how and why it happened?
> 
> http://www.gata.org/node/8477


I think Jamie Dimon was driving that car.  lol!

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## tmosley

> China is the world's largest gold producer and the Government in China can acquire gold in the market from those producers without affecting the open market price of Gold at all.


There is a problem with this.  Chinese gold production is 300 tons/year (http://www.goldworld.com/articles/ch...production/448).  Private Chinese gold consumption is 450 tons per year (http://seekingalpha.com/article/1812...ts-fast-growth).    This says nothing about demand from its central bank, which is likely considerable, likely in the realm of 300 tons per year.

Chinese gold demand is going parabolic, while gold production is increasing linearly (with signs of leveling out last year).  In addition, China used to export gold.  This is obviously not the case any more.

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## not.your.average.joe

http://beforeitsnews.com/news/28269/...C_Hearing.html

By Adrian Douglas



The bombshell that GATA dropped at the CFTC Public Hearing on Precious Metals, March 25, 2010 was stunning. The video of Bill Murphy, Chairman of GATA, revealing a whistleblower source who has warned the CFTC Enforcement Division of market manipulation by JPMorganChase in advance of it happening and witnessed JPM traders bragging of their exploits can be viewed here.



Murphy explained that despite the Enforcement Division receiving detailed information in December 2009 the manipulation continues unabated as can be seen by the way gold was taken down this week to rob holders of April gold call options in the strike range of $1100-$1150 as the hammering made them expire worthless.



GATA believes that this new evidence and smoking gun will be a watershed event in liberating the gold market from its shackles of price suppression.



As dramatic as this revelation was at the CFTC hearing there was another bombshell exposure during the hearing. This was the testimony that GATA Board member, Adrian Douglas, was able to deliver during the hearing while assisting Harvey Organ with his testimony. Adrian was able to introduce arguments that the London Bullion Market Association (LBMA) OTC gold market is nothing but a massive paper gold Ponzi scheme. What was then astonishing is that the bullion bank apologist, Jeffery Christian, of CPM Group, who has always been staunchly against GATA endorsed Adrians comments as being exactly right and went on to confirm that the LBMA trades over 100 times the amount of gold it actually has to back the trades.



There were lots of almost as equally explosive admissions so I have taken the time to make a transcript of the relevant section of the webcast. I have posted the two short video clips



www.youtube.com/watch?v=jok3XLBz_SI



www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfCn8NlLHko



which are what have been transcribed.



The transcript is given below with some notes and discussion added by me.



S. OMALIA: Both Mr. Organ and Mr. Epstein in the second panel, raised the concerns that short positions exceed the physical supply. The second panel kind of argued that that wasnt a concern. Are you concerned that the shorts will not be able to deliver if called upon?



J. CHRISTIAN: No. I am not at all concerned. For one thing it has been persistently that way for decades. Another thing is that there are any number of mechanisms allowing for cash settlements and problems and a third thing is as many people who are actually knowledgeable about the silver market and the gold market have testified today that almost all of those short positions are in fact hedges, the short futures positions are hedges, offsetting long positions in the OTC market. So I dont really see a concern there.



[Note: It is interesting that Mr. Christian is not concerned about the ability of the shorts to deliver because they can cash settle! He clearly has no understanding that when someone wants to buy precious metals giving them cash instead is a failure to deliver. It is a default! But he is not concerned!

He says that the short position is actually hedged by a long position on the OTC but we will see later in this testimony how he describes the OTC Physical Market and we will see that the long position is not bullion but is in fact an unbacked (or only partially backed) I.O.U. bullion.]



S. OMALIA: Mr Organ would you like to respond?



H. Organ: I do see a risk on this, and I think it is a risk that we have to be very, very careful of. As countries like China, South Korea and Russia start demanding and taking physical delivery of their gold and moving it offshore to their shores and putting pressure on the Comex, and we will probably come to a point in time where we will have a failure to deliver.



A DOUGLAS: Mr. Chairman, could I make a comment?



CHAIRMAN GENSLER: No! Who are you?



A DOUGLAS: I would



CHAIRMAN GENSLER: No! I said No!



A DOUGLAS: Oh! You said No?



CHAIRMAN GENSLER: I dont know who is this?



A DOUGLAS: I am Adrian Douglas; I am assisting Harvey.



CHAIRMAN GENSLER: Alright, Sir. Yes.



A DOUGLAS: I would just like to make a comment. We are talking about the futures market hedging the physical market. But if we look at the physical market, the LBMA, it trades 20 million ozs of gold per day on a net basis which is 22 billion dollars. Thats 5.4 Trillion dollars per year. That is half the size of the US economy. If you take the gross amount it is about one and a half times the US economy; that is not trading 100% backed metal; its trading on a fractional reserve basis. And you can tell that from the LBMAs website because they trade in unallocated accounts. And if you look at their definition of an unallocated account they say that you are an unsecured creditor. Well, if its unallocated and you buy one hundred tonnes of gold even if you dont have the serial numbers you should still have one hundred tonnes of gold, so how can you be an unsecured creditor? Well, thats because its fractional reserve accounting, and you cant trade that much gold, it doesnt exist in the world. So the people who are hedging these positions on the LBMA, its essentially paper hedging paper. Bart Chilton uses the expression Stop the Ponzimonium and this is a Ponzi Scheme. Because gold is a unique commodity and people have mentioned this, it is left in the vaults and it is not consumed. So this means that most people trust the bullion banks to hold their gold and they trade it on a ledger entry. So one of the issues we have got to address here is the size of the LBMA and the OTC markets because of the positions which are supposedly backing these positions which are hedges, but it is essentially paper backing paper.



[8 seconds of silence]



CHAIRMAN GENSLER: Oh! I guess I get time. ErrrUmm. I dont have any other questions. Commissioner Dunn.



M. DUNN: I appreciate the difficulty of trying to do this by remote but at the end of your testimony you start talking about bona fide hedge exemptions for commercial traders and must be part of position limits and not to grant hedge exemptions to swap dealers would be devastating for liquidity of exchanges and the price discovery capacity, and we got into who determines what is legitimate, but could you amplify on that a bit and what you see as a danger there?



J. CHRISTIAN: Yes I can amplify on it; but amplify on it a bit is more difficult because it is a very big subject. The first thing is that precious metals, copper, other metals, energy these are all traded internationally and are fungible commodities by and large. There are a lot of strange things that have been misspoken about the difference between the wholesale and the retail market and we dont really have the time to go over those, I think. But the fact of the matter is



[The lights go off]



J. CHRISTIAN: Oh excuse me. I am in a building with motion sensitive lighting and it doesnt recognize what I do as human activity.



CHAIRMAN GENSLER: Those were your words not anybodys here.



J. CHRISTIAN: No, they were my wifes! If you start putting position limits on bona fide hedgers for example, the bullion banks, and the previous fellow was talking about hedges of paper on paper and that is exactly right. Precious metals are financial assets like currencies, T-Bills and T-bonds they trade in the multiples of a hundred times the underlying physical and so people buying them are voting and giving an economic view of the world or a view of the economic world and so when you start saying to a bank I have a number of people



[Note: This is mind blowing. He openly admits that the LBMA OTC market is not trading in physical gold or silver; it is trading in paper promises. Gold is not intended to be a financial asset like T-Bills and currencies. That is the whole point of owning it. Actual physical bullion is a tangible asset with intrinsic value that doesnt have counterparty risk. He believes the purpose of trading paper promises in gold is for investors to vote on their view of the economic world! He confirms that the LBMA trades hundreds of times the real underlying physical. This is even a higher estimate than I have previously made! It is, as I asserted before the Commission, a giant Ponzi Scheme.]



J. CHRISTIAN: well, actually lets go back to a concrete example of Mr. Organ when he was talking about August of 2008 when there was an explosion in the short positions in gold and silver held by the bullion banks on the futures market and he seemed to imply that that was somehow driving the price down. If you understand how those bullion banks run their books the reason they had an explosion in their short positions was because they were selling bullion hand over fist in the forward market, in the physical market, and in the OTC options market. Everyone was buying gold everywhere in the world so the bullion banks who stand as market makers were selling or making commitments to sell them material and so they had to hedge themselves and they were using the futures market to do that. So if you place position limits on the futures market they will have to find some other mechanism to hedge themselves and they will. And someone else will provide that market



M. DUNN: Jeffery, I am going to cut you off because I want to ask another question of Mr. Organ.



[It is hard to imagine more inane drivel than this. He conjures up the image of bullion bankers selling bullion like crazy to the general public who are in a feeding frenzy and the bullion bankers are hedging themselves by selling gold short on the COMEX!!! Did he get that idea from a blonde? A little while later Chairman Gensler also realized that this was the biggest baloney ever concocted as a cover for massive gold market manipulation by JPMorgan and HSBC in 2008 and so poses a follow up question]





CHAIRMAN GENSLER: I would like to follow up on Commissioner Dunns question for Mr. Christian, if I might, because I didnt quite follow your answer on the bullion banks. You said that the bullion banks had large shorts to hedge themselves selling elsewhere, and I didnt understand; I might just not have followed it and youre closer to the metals markets than me on this, but how do you short something to cover a sale, I didnt quite follow that?



J. CHRISTIAN: Well, actually I misspoke. Basically what you were seeing in August of 2008 was the liquidation of leveraged precious metals positions from a number of places and the bullion banks were coming back to buy it, and they were hedging those positions by going short on the COMEX and that is really what it was.

[Even on a second attempt Mr. Christian invents the most ridiculous poppycock to explain away the blatant manipulation of the precious metals in 2008. If, in his own words, investors were buying gold hand over fist everywhere in the world why would leveraged long holders dump all their long holdings? They would have ordinarily been making a fortune. The bank participation report of August 2008 shows that 2 or 3 bullion banks sold short the equivalent of 25% of world annual silver production in 4 weeks and the equivalent of 10% of world annual gold production. There was simultaneously a decrease in their long positions, which were almost non-existent anyway, which is incoherent with a notion the bullion banks were mopping up dumped leveraged investments. For an intelligent and coherent explanation of what happened in August 2008 read my CFTC written testimony here]



CHAIRMAN GENSLER: So I am glad I asked because I really didnt follow that. But if I think of the earlier charts of the positions of the bullion banks that Mr. Sherrod had these concentrated shorts have been, well you know, reasonably consistent, they are not exactly the same on every day, but his  charts showed a similarity across a couple of years. So what are bullion banks, I mean I am just trying to understand, what are bullion banks hedging on the other side, we heard from other panels, but you seem to be familiar, is it warehouse receipts, what is it?



J. CHRISTIAN: Well its a tremendous number of things. You were at Goldman shortly after me and we had an MIS system that kicked out a daily gold book.



CHAIRMAN GENSLER: Thats really remarkable because we dont seem to have a lot of similar views, but you know, a lot of people were at Goldman Sachs.



J. CHRISTIAN: Well I didnt like the trends at Goldman so I left in 1986. But honestly, and bad jokes aside, if you look at a bullion banks book, its gold book for example, you will see an enormous number of things; there will be gold forward purchases from mining companies, there will be forward purchases from refineries, there will be gold that has been leased out to electronics manufacturers, component manufacturers, and countless manufacturers and jewelers. As gold flows through the beneficiation process and again these are all long complex issues that are hard to reduce, but you know, a lot of producers will sell their gold the moment it leaves their possession at the mine. It might be in concentrate form or it might be in dore form. It then goes to a smelter or a refinery. The bullion bank buys that and it agrees a price at the time it is buying it but it wont be allowed to sell that metal until the refinery outturn which maybe two weeks but it could be six months. So they will go into the market and short the market in order to cover the commitment they have made to buy at that price and then when they get the metal in the physical market then they can either sell that metal in the physical market and unwind the hedge in the futures market or the forward market or do something else. There are all sorts of other derivative contracts that investment banks and bullion banks will sell to investors, to other banks, pension funds, to insurance companies and each of those will often have a long exposure in gold which will be hedged with an offsetting short position [note: There he goes again with that blonde idea that when you sell gold to someone you hedge that with a short position!]. So if you look at a bullion banks gold book or silver book you would find a large range of topics. One of the things that the people who criticize the bullion banks and talk about this undue large position dont understand what is the nature of the long positions of the physical market and we dont help it; the CFTC when it did its most recent report on silver used the term that we use the physical market. We use that term as did the CFTC in that report to talk about the OTC market in other words forwards, OTC options, physical metal and everything else. People say, and you heard it today, there is not that much physical metal out there, and there isnt. But in the physical market as the market uses that term, there is much more metal than thatthere is a hundred times what there is. If I look at the large short positions on the COMEX my question is where are the other shorts being hedged? because the short position, that I believe the bullion banks use to hedge their physicals, is larger than their short position on the COMEX and the answer is that they hedge it in the OTC market in London.



CHAIRMAN GENSLER: I thank you for that detailed discussion

END



This is a stunning revelation. Mr. Christian confirms that the physical market is not in fact a physical market at all. It is a loose description of all the paper trading and ledger entries and some physical metal movements that occur each day on behalf of people who believe they own bullion in LBMA vaults but in fact they dont. They are told they have unallocated gold or unallocated silver but that does not mean the LBMA has physical metal set aside for those customers and has just not given specific bar numbers to the customers. No, it is the most cynical and corrupt definition of unallocatedthe customer has NO bullion allocated to him. NONE! The LBMA defines the owners of unallocated accounts quite clearly as unsecured creditors. That means they have NO collateral. NONE. Can it be any clearer? It is a giant Ponzi scheme.

Mr. Christian confirms what many analysts and GATA have been alleging that there is not much REAL physical metal, but testifies that there is actually one hundred times the REAL Physical metal being sold based on the much more loose definition of what physical means to the bullion banks.



The last sentence of his statement is mind-blowing. He says the physical positions of the bullion banks are so huge that they are much bigger than the COMEX short position. He says the physicals are hedged on the OTC market in London! Did you get that? Let me walk you through it. The bullion banks are selling what is supposed to be vault gold but it is just a ledger entry if the customer never asks for delivery. They must balance their exposure with a ledger deposit entry. This has to be some paper promise of gold from a third party, or some derivative, or even some real gold bullion. If all the ledger entries balance out then the bullion bank has no net exposure in exactly the same way the futures market works with a short offsetting a long. A futures market can never default if no one asks for delivery as only paper contracts are traded. The loosely defined physical London market is an identical scheme. As long as everyone is prepared to buy and sell ledger entries for imaginary gold in the vault no one will ever discover the fraud.

The LBMA does, however, buy and sell some real physical metal as well. But we now know form Mr. Christians testimony that this is one one-hundredth the size of the paper gold trading. The LBMA states on its website that it trades 20 million ozs of gold each day on a net basis. We can calculate the net trade of REAL physical gold should be about 200,000 ozs each day; that is 6.25 tonnes per day or 1625 tonnes per year. This is very much in line with the size of total global mining output of approximately 2200 tonnes per year.

So the giant Ponzi trading of gold ledger entries can be sustained only if there is never a liquidity crisis in the REAL physical market. If someone asks for gold and there isnt any the default would trigger the biggest bank run and default in history. This is, of course, why the Central Banks lease their gold or sell it outright to the bullion banks when they are squeezed by high demand for REAL physical gold that can not be met from their own stocks.



Almost every day we hear of a new financial fraud that has been exposed. The gold and silver market fraud is likely to be bigger than all of them. Investors in their droves, who have purchased gold in good faith in unallocated accounts, are going to demand delivery of their metal. They will then discover that there is only one ounce for every one hundred ounces claimed. They will find out they are unsecured creditors.



GATA has long advocated the ownership of real physical bullion. The bombshells dropped in the CFTC Public Hearing have only served to reinforce that view. We believe we have made significant new inroads into exposing the fraud, and the suppression of precious metals prices and it is documented in the CFTCs own hearing.



March 27, 2010



Adrian Douglas

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## weatherbill

all my silver is for sale at $18 per oz
this includes shipping and insurance
PM me if you want

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## devil21

Wasn't there a large fire in the NY CFTC office recently?

Here we go: http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com...c-offices.html




> A fire earlier this week in the basement of the building located at 140 Broadway in New York City has forced the temporary move of the New York office of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission, which was located in the building. The office has been reloacted on a temporary basis to 201 Varick Street.
> 
> Reports on the internet state that gold and silver records of the CFTC were damaged in the fire, which would be interesting given it is just one week before the Congressional Precious Metals Manipulation hearing. However, Steve Schneider a CFTC spokesman at their Washington D.C. headquarters informs me that the damage was unrelated to the CFTC and that no CFTC documents were lost or damaged in the fire.


Interesting timing.

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## ctiger2

> all my silver is for sale at $18 per oz
> this includes shipping and insurance
> PM me if you want


How much do you have? 10,000oz ?

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## tmosley

> How much do you have? 10,000oz ?


I was going to buy it from him, but APMEX came up with a better price, and I was able to get them in 1/2oz increments (the 1oz rounds are still on sale, to those interested, but the sale price on the 1/2 oz rounds is only good on 500 or more).

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## Dforkus

One week in, silver is trading within historical price/volatility ranges

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## Kelly.

i have a question about the downside of precious metals.

is there anything that can drive their cost down? im worried about ending up with a stack of pennies (1 oz silver rounds) in my safe.

this may not be the best place to ask (in a buy silver thread), but i figured now is as fgood of a time as any i guess.
i just recently (last year or so) start using PMs to protect my purchasing power, but am afraid im not diversified enough (diversifying to me isnt buying both gold and silver, lol)

any feedback is appreciated 
thanks

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## tmosley

> i have a question about the downside of precious metals.
> 
> is there anything that can drive their cost down? im worried about ending up with a stack of pennies (1 oz silver rounds) in my safe.
> 
> this may not be the best place to ask (in a buy silver thread), but i figured now is as fgood of a time as any i guess.
> i just recently (last year or so) start using PMs to protect my purchasing power, but am afraid im not diversified enough (diversifying to me isnt buying both gold and silver, lol)
> 
> any feedback is appreciated 
> thanks


It would be tough to drive down silver prices over a prolonged period, as the above ground supply is almost out, and engineers and scientists keep coming up with new uses for silver.  The only thing that could drive prices down is if some huge new stockpile were found and dumped on the market, or some huge new mine was opened.

Buying gold is like buying the whole stock market, or the whole bond market.  It is very diversified because, as real money, it represents the value of the entire economy.  Its supply is also very nearly constant, since it is rarely consumed.  As such, the price is dictated only by demand, and demand is extremely low right now, because political manipulations have managed to remove its monetary premium.  This WILL return someday (I think it will be sooner rather than later), but it might not happen for another 200 years (should we tie with the Yuan dynasty of China for the longest lasting fiat currency).  It could also fall apart next week.  Silver is a bit more unique, in that it is consumed, and with the above ground inventories gone, the price is dictated by both supply and demand (although it is viciously suppressed right now).  It has also had its monetary premium stripped from it.  It is much further depressed than gold, as it is sitting at greater than 60oz of silver to an ounce of gold.  The historical average is 15 oz of silver to an oz of gold.  Remember, though, that silver is consumed, and there's not much of it left.  As such, it may well run up faster than gold.

Another thing that might send silver lower is if an audit of the bullion banks revealed that they really do have all of the silver to back up their trades (they have admitted they don't, and that they only have 1 oz for every 100oz they trade), then it might go down a bit as it would be less attractive to the "tinfoil hatters".

Remember, though, cash is king during any depression.  When the currency of the realm is debased, only the power money will hold its purchasing power.  If the prices of such truly are being artificially depressed, then that will have to end at some point, and gold and silver will have to go up.

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## Yukon Cornelius

> but it might not happen for another 200 years (should we tie with the Yuan dynasty of China for the longest lasting fiat currency).


Not to go off topic, but is it safe to say if something like this happened sheeple can continue to be sheeple and the rest of us will pull our hair out for another 200 years?

I have a gut feeling this is the direction the US is headed, but my knowledge of the nuances of China/US economic relations is limited.

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## tmosley

> Not to go off topic, but is it safe to say if something like this happened sheeple can continue to be sheeple and the rest of us will pull our hair out for another 200 years?
> 
> I have a gut feeling this is the direction the US is headed, but my knowledge of the nuances of China/US economic relations is limited.


Well, China was able to maintain for that long because they were in the middle of an expansionary period where they conquered damn near all of Asia, and were knocking on the door of central Europe.  The loot, and the profits that flowed from the increases in trade from Pax Mongolia were enough to keep them solvent for quite a while.  Unless the US suddenly gets a lot better at conducting raids, drops prohibitions against looting conquered countries, and finds a way to carry out such campaigns against rich nations without getting nuked, we probably don't have that long.

In addition, no-one was allowed to have any gold or silver except as jewelry anywhere within the borders of China, under penalty of death.  In addition, you could not take their paper currency out of their borders, but HAD to trade for gold at the border.  As such, Chinese currency never became a world reserve currency as ours has.

So long as you have gold and silver traded within the borders of the US, their price in dollars will rise in response to money printing.  The question is, will the money printing ever stop?

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## Kelly.

you have to believe that other countries will not continue to buy our debt if the govt just continues to print money/QE

but wont the collapse of the dollar effect everyone, since it is the worlds reserve currency?
and as such, shouldnt other countries continue to lend to us?
i mean if they stop lending to us, we default and they never get anything back, or
they continue to lend to us, and hope that the govt can borrow the money from someone else to them back?

im obviously new to this, and im trying to see it from both sides. none of it ends with anything good for the dollar.

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## YumYum

> It would be tough to drive down silver prices over a prolonged period, as the above ground supply is almost out, and engineers and scientists keep coming up with new uses for silver.


Gold went up today, silver dropped.




> The only thing that could drive prices down is if some huge new stockpile were found and dumped on the market, or some huge new mine was opened.


This happens all the time with silver. So, why did you panic and tell everybody to by it during the night after the markets closed?




> Buying gold is like buying the whole stock market, or the whole bond market.  It is very diversified because, as real money, it represents the value of the entire economy.  Its supply is also very nearly constant, since it is rarely consumed.  *As such, the price is dictated only by demand, and demand is extremely low right now, because political manipulations have managed to remove its monetary premium.*


I said back in October that the central banks manipulated gold and you called me a moron; that the central banks didn't have the power that they used to have. You said that gold couldn't be manipulated. Now you've changed your tune. 





> This WILL return someday (I think it will be sooner rather than later), but it might not happen for another 200 years (should we tie with the Yuan dynasty of China for the longest lasting fiat currency).  It could also fall apart next week.


??? You claimed in your posts the last couple of years that gold was going to go through the roof "any day now" and make you a millionaire. It was supposed to happen at any moment. So, what is it? Two hundred years from now are next week?





> Silver is a bit more unique, in that it is consumed, and with the above ground inventories gone, the price is dictated by both supply and demand (although it is viciously suppressed right now).  It has also had its monetary premium stripped from it.  It is much further depressed than gold, as it is sitting at greater than 60oz of silver to an ounce of gold.  The historical average is 15 oz of silver to an oz of gold.  *Remember, though, that silver is consumed, and there's not much of it left.  As such, it may well run up faster than gold*.


Right, that is why gold went up today, while silver went down.




> Another thing that might send silver lower is if an audit of the bullion banks revealed that they really do have all of the silver to back up their trades (they have admitted they don't, and that they only have 1 oz for every 100oz they trade), then it might go down a bit as it would be less attractive to the "tinfoil hatters".


What drives the price of silver is buying and selling, just like gold. Hypothetical situations based on rumors and paranoia does not sustain the price of PMs.




> *Remember, though, cash is king during any depression.*  When the currency of the realm is debased, only the power money will hold its purchasing power.  If the prices of such truly are being artificially depressed, then that will have to end at some point, and gold and silver will have to go up.


You said that FRN's are worthless and that the dollar would never rebound. That was in late October when the dollar index was at 72 and now it is at 81. 

Why hasn't the dollar collapsed yet? You've been predicting that it will "any day now", since you have been on this board. Why isn't gold at $4,000 an ounce and silver at $60 an ounce, as you predicted? Why do you speak with such authority when none of your predictions have come true?

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## Jordan

These threads are always filled with awesome.

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## tmosley

> Gold went up today, silver dropped.
> 
> 
> 
> This happens all the time with silver. So, why did you panic and tell everybody to by it during the night after the markets closed?
> 
> 
> 
> I said back in October that the central banks manipulated gold and you called me a moron; that the central banks didn't have the power that they used to have. You said that gold couldn't be manipulated. Now you've changed your tune. 
> ...


Take my bet you coward.  Be punished for your stupidity.

Edit:  I mean seriously, you're extracting a trend from a single day?  And you wonder why I call you a moron?  

You know what?  Let's up the ante.  I'll take you for ten american gold eagles instead.  Any answer other than yes means you are a blithering coward.

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## SevenEyedJeff

A lot of YumYum's points seem to be based on a ONE DAY drop, like this one day drop of 16 cents is the end of the world as far as silver is concerned. 

And cash is king? Laughable...the dollar index is heavily weighted against the cannibalistic Euro. Meanwhile, the Canadian dollar is at parity again.

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## tmosley

As a side note, I'm up $142 on the new, tenfold bet, or 36.70 on the old one (shipping for 1 vs 10 from APMEX is the same).

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## surf

> you have to believe that other countries will not continue to buy our debt if the govt just continues to print money/QE
> 
> but wont the collapse of the dollar effect everyone, since it is the worlds reserve currency?


other countries will continue to lend the US money, but the yield they will demand will increase = rising interest rates. as the US repays current obligations it will need to print more cash to do so, devaluing the currency further (supply and demand).

the dollar won't necessarily "collapse" relative to other currencies as other governments will continue to inflate as well. i think the initial point of this thread is that the dollar will collapse relative to "hard currencies," i.e. gold and silver. apparently the author thought it was going to happen on 3/24 rather than continue on the relatively slow trend it has been on for the last 100 years. it is tough to argue that it will not happen quickly in the near future.

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## tmosley

Actually, I expected this to hit the mainstream media over the course of that weekend, but the press blackout has been most effective.  Once it becomes known by some critical mass of people, it will go nuts.  No-one can predict exactly when that will happen.

I cited the 200 year figure because the longest a fiat currency has ever lasted was 250 years, in Yuan China.

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## Dr.3D

> A lot of YumYum's points seem to be based on a ONE DAY drop, like this one day drop of 16 cents is the end of the world as far as silver is concerned. 
> 
> And cash is king? Laughable...the dollar index is heavily weighted against the cannibalistic Euro. Meanwhile, the Canadian dollar is at parity again.


Precisely, the only benchmark to determine how well the dollar is doing is being manipulated so it can not truly indicate anything.  If anybody is dumb enough to watch the dollar index as some kind of indicator as to how well the dollar is doing, they might as well be sky diving and watch all the others who jumped out of the plane at the same time they did as an indicator of how fast they are falling.

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## ctiger2

> Precisely, the only benchmark to determine how well the dollar is doing is being manipulated so it can not truly indicate anything.  If anybody is dumb enough to watch the dollar index as some kind of indicator as to how well the dollar is doing, they might as well be sky diving and watch all the others who jumped out of the plane at the same time they did as an indicator of how fast they are falling.


I disagree. The USD (priced in Gold) chart over the past 10 years tells all you need to know about it. IMHO.

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## Dr.3D

> I disagree. The USD (priced in Gold) chart over the past 10 years tells all you need to know about it. IMHO.


Just imagine what that chart would look like if there had not been any manipulation in the price of gold.   It would be even more dramatic that what you see in that chart.

Here is another chart with some not so accurate information.


The reason I say it isn't so accurate is because it is derived from government data and we all know that isn't necessarily accurate.  Needless to say, even with their own data, it doesn't look like anybody would want to have a savings account back in 1913 and keep the money in it till now.   It would only be worth 4 cents on the dollar now.

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## JosephTheLibertarian

for how long is apmex going to have this special? I'm thinking about buying 20.

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## Jordan

edit.

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## Jordan

> I disagree. The USD (priced in Gold) chart over the past 10 years tells all you need to know about it. IMHO.


What about the 20 years before that?  Irrelevant?

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## purepaloma

Scottsdale Silver Hallmarked bullion seems to continually have the highest resale premium on ebay of any brand.

Though prices on website are a tad higher, they accept credit cards/paypal and are still quite a bit less than most of the dealers on TV and radio.

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## tmosley

> for how long is apmex going to have this special? I'm thinking about buying 20.


You missed it, sadly.

That was one of the reasons for the rush in the OP.  That was an awesome sale.

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## YumYum

> You missed it, sadly.
> 
> That was one of the reasons for the rush in the OP.  That was an awesome sale.


tmosley....I want to buy silver based on your assumptions. How high will silver go and how soon? Many people on this forum depend on your expertise input.

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## YumYum

> Take my bet you coward.  Be punished for your stupidity.
> 
> Edit:  I mean seriously, you're extracting a trend from a single day?  And you wonder why I call you a moron?  
> 
> You know what?  Let's up the ante.  I'll take you for ten american gold eagles instead.  Any answer other than yes means you are a blithering coward.


tmosley...I'm too busy making money to waste my time on you. You claim that you are a manger of a chemical company, and yet my data shows that you spend 14.3 hours a day on this forum. How can you honestly give your employer an honest day's work with you hanging on the computer all day long and all night? Is that what Ron Paul wants from us who represent him? Someone who cheats their employer out of time? You should be ashamed of yourself.

Another thing, you claim on the one hand that you have "just sold out" and that you are sitting on a "lap full of cash", and then you claim in another thread that you are broke. Did it ever occur to you that the I.R.S. monitors this board, and because of your braggadocios statements, you and many others on this board are going to be subject to an audit by the I.R.S.? That is the last thing the good people on this forum need.

tmosley....how many inches tall is your elevator shoes?

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## ctiger2

> What about the 20 years before that?  Irrelevant?


Not irrelevant, but if you do research you'd find out that the gold price was set daily by a Rothschild at the LBMA. Not the Market. They walked the price down for 20 yrs. Gold is highly manipulated.

Listen: http://iamthewitness.com/audio/Muham...14-04-2010.mp3

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## tmosley

> tmosley...I'm too busy making money to waste my time on you. You claim that you are a manger of a chemical company, and yet my data shows that you spend 14.3 hours a day on this forum. How can you honestly give your employer an honest day's work with you hanging on the computer all day long and all night? Is that what Ron Paul wants from us who represent him? Someone who cheats their employer out of time? You should be ashamed of yourself.
> 
> Another thing, you claim on the one hand that you have "just sold out" and that you are sitting on a "lap full of cash", and then you claim in another thread that you are broke. Did it ever occur to you that the I.R.S. monitors this board, and because of your braggadocios statements, you and many others on this board are going to be subject to an audit by the I.R.S.? That is the last thing the good people on this forum need.
> 
> tmosley....how many inches tall is your elevator shoes?


I'm sure you make a lot of money as a student.  I spend a lot of time on these forums, but it is between experiments.  Science is full of hurry up and wait situations, and I kill time here rather than watching television or playing flash games.  If you think I'm such a $#@!ty employee, perhaps you ought to call my boss, who will inform you that I have been directly responsible for taking this business from the verge of failure to profitability, nad have more than doubled my salary because of it.  All while spending 874658374586586.965 hours per day on Ron Paul Forums.

EDIT:  I would also add that I am responsible for 1.25 million in grant funding split between the academic lab and the corporate side THIS YEAR.  I wrote both grants which got funded recently.  The money will help us to push our amazing technologies past the regulators and onto the market.  The antimicrobial bandage which I developed seems to have the side effect of supercharging the immune system when placed in the shoes (I was seeing if it would get rid of athlete's foot--it did).  Normally, I get sick 2-3 times every year, but in the two years I've been wearing them, I haven't been sick ONCE.  I'm having trouble getting the ball rolling on clinical trials for that, though.

And who "just sold out" and is sitting on a "lap full of cash"?  I sold out of MINING STOCKS, and converted the proceeds into silver.  I said nothing about selling metals.  But then, you've got your head so far up your ass I can see how it would be hard for you to read a computer screen.  Being so full of $#@!, it must be hard to think.  The smell must be awful.

As to the IRS, you might as well start blaming me for the volcano.  $#@! off you blithering coward.  

This is the last time we speak, you sack of crap.  If you want to man up and accept my bet, you can send me a PM.  If I don't respond within two days, post a thread in this forum with "I am accepting tmosley's bet" as the title.  You are going on my block list, and I will only take you off to read the title of threads you start.  I don't need any more $#@! from an unemployed college student with no money.

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## Kelly.

> Is that what Ron Paul wants from us who represent him?


speak for yourself,

i represent myself, and myself only.

this forum has alot of like minded individuals, where i can discuss things we have in common. if you are here to "represent ron paul" , you might be here for the wrong reason.

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## squarepusher

YouTube - Wonder Pets This is sewius.

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