# Lifestyles & Discussion > Personal Health & Well-Being >  You may want to rethink eating pork

## donnay

*Toenails, hair and fecal matter are finding their way into America's pork according to USDA whistleblowers*

By Christopher Brennan

Toenails, hair and fecal matter are finding their way into Americans' pork under new, faster slaughterhouse regulations.

Whistleblowers from inside the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) have spoken out against a recent pilot program, saying they let harmful materials be passed on to consumers.

They claim that fewer inspectors and higher speeds mean that abscesses, lesions, cystic kidneys and bladder stems are also being put into meat by companies such as Hormel.

'It's not whether or not people are going to eat sh**  they are. It's just how much,' one meat inspector said about the new HIMP regulations, according to documents released by the Government Accountability Project. 

The HIMP program, which stands for Hazard Analysis & Critical Control Points Inspection Models Project, replaces government inspectors with slaughterhouse employees who check meat for contamination with oversight from USDA officials.

It has been run as a pilot program in five slaughterhouses since the late 1990s and cut the number of government inspectors by about half in each plant. 

The changes are thought to increase the line speed of the meat factories from 1,100 to 1,300 hogs killed per hour, making it near impossible to check each pig carcass.

Three of the five plants have numerous violations for health and safety issues, according to the *Washington Post*. 

Government inspectors, four of whom filed affidavits with the Government Accountability Project, said that there recommendations about safety were ignored by plant officials as well as their USDA higher-ups, who sided with the meat companies.

*Continued...*

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## heavenlyboy34

Wouldn't surprise me given the USDA's track record, but I'd like to see this verified by another source.  The DM has a bad reputation in and out of the UK.  It's commonly known in Britain as the "Daily Fail".

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## GunnyFreedom

I don't eat pork anyway, so this will not be changing my mind lol.  BTW it's really, really hard to live in the southeast and not eat pork, just saying.  Beef bacon for the win!!!

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## dannno

It's not the pigs fault the mass manufacturers are getting sloppy.. I get my pork from Trader Joe's, I also like wild boar.

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## Suzanimal

> Toenails


How in the hell????

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## heavenlyboy34

> I don't eat pork anyway, so this will not be changing my mind lol.  BTW it's really, really hard to live in the southeast and not eat pork, just saying.  Beef bacon for the win!!!


Turkey bacon is pretty good too, IMHO.

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## donnay

> Wouldn't surprise me given the USDA's track record, but I'd like to see this verified by another source.  The DM has a bad reputation in and out of the UK.  It's commonly known in Britain as the "Daily Fail".


http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...fd5_story.html

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## Suzanimal

> Turkey bacon is pretty good too, IMHO.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Turkey bacon is pretty good too, IMHO.


When I went porkless, I tried turkey bacon and hated it.  Every couple of years I would try it again and still hated it.  Now that I can occasionally find beef bacon, I get to enjoy bacon again!!  WOOT!

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## William Tell

> 


What? It is good.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Turkey bacon is pretty good too, IMHO.


I admit though I have wondered if turkey bacon would make for a good dehydrated turkey jerky...

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## William Tell

> When I went porkless, I tried turkey bacon and hated it.  Every couple of years I would try it again and still hated it.  Now that I can occasionally find beef bacon, I get to enjoy bacon again!!  WOOT!


I have had great Turkey bacon as well as Beef. I guess there are lots of brands out there, so it may be hard to speak of it uniformly.

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## brushfire

I guess as long as you can identify what you're eating, it shouldn't really be a problem.

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## Suzanimal

> What? It is good.


It's disgusting.




> I admit though I have wondered if turkey bacon would make for a good dehydrated turkey jerky...


No.

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## brushfire

> It's disgusting.
> 
> 
> 
> No.


I tend to agree - same with "light dressing" or anything fat free.   Either I will eat less and enjoy what I do eat, or I wont eat it.  To me more of something I dont enjoy doesnt compensate for eating a little of something I do enjoy.   That being said, if folks like tofu bacon, more power to em.

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## specsaregood

> The HIMP program, which stands for Hazard Analysis & Critical Control Points Inspection Models Project, *replaces government inspectors with slaughterhouse employees* who check meat for contamination with oversight from USDA officials.
> 
> It has been run as a pilot program in five slaughterhouses since the late 1990s and *cut the number of government inspectors by about half in each plant*.


Consider me skeptical that this isn't just govt leeches crying foul because their leech friends and family aren't getting as many govt mandated jobs.

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## donnay

> When I went porkless, I tried turkey bacon and hated it.  Every couple of years I would try it again and still hated it.  Now that I can occasionally find beef bacon, I get to enjoy bacon again!!  WOOT!


Trader Joe's has some really good non-cured beef bacon.  I like fried turkey bologna. 


ETA:

Gunny check this out:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Trade...42377612504252
www.traderjoes.com/stores

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## Suzanimal

> I tend to agree - same with "light dressing" or anything fat free.   Either I will eat less and enjoy what I do eat, or I wont eat it.  To me more of something I dont enjoy doesnt compensate for eating a little of something I do enjoy.   That being said, if folks like tofu bacon, more power to em.


I agree, I'm just like messin' with HB34 and Badgiraffe.

From the article...



> One affidavit says that more than 20 per cent of the pigs going through the killing process are* contaminated with some sort of undesirable material*.

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## heavenlyboy34

> I tend to agree - same with "light dressing" or anything fat free.   Either I will eat less and enjoy what I do eat, or I wont eat it.  To me more of something I dont enjoy doesnt compensate for eating a little of something I do enjoy.   That being said, if folks like tofu bacon, more power to em.


"light" anything is ick. :P

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## VIDEODROME

> Turkey bacon is pretty good too, IMHO.


You mean Fakon?

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## William Tell



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## PaulConventionWV

> It's disgusting.
> 
> 
> 
> No.


I love turkey bacon.  I am much disappointed in you. 

I personally don't touch pork or any pig product.  This coming from the state that invented pepperoni rolls.  It's not for religious reasons, either.  Just don't like eating something that eats slop and rolls around in its own excrement.

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## GunnyFreedom

> I love turkey bacon.  I am much disappointed in you. 
> 
> I personally don't touch pork or any pig product.  This coming from the state that invented pepperoni rolls.  It's not for religious reasons, either.  Just don't like eating something that eats slop and rolls around in its own excrement.

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## CPUd

> 


This looks like roast beef that is labeled bacon on the box.

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## fisharmor

> I personally don't touch pork or any pig product.  This coming from the state that invented pepperoni rolls.  It's not for religious reasons, either.  Just don't like eating something that eats slop and rolls around in its own excrement.


Every animal rolls around in its own excrement.  Cattle, sheep, goats, ESPECIALLY chickens....

And feeding them slop is the point.  You put good use to your leftover crap, and get tasty meat which perfectly compliments sauerkraut.

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## euphemia

Rethink bacon?  This is a joke, right?

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## GunnyFreedom

> This looks like roast beef that is labeled bacon on the box.


Trust me, it's bacon.  I LOOOOOVE bacon, it was the most difficult thing for me to give up when i gave up pork.  Put cooked pork bacon beside cooked beef bacon, the look and taste almost identical.  I think the beef bacon tastes and smells slightly more...bacon-y.  Only when it's raw does the beef bacon look slightly less...faded, more reddish.

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## William Tell

> Rethink bacon?  This is a joke, right?


Enjoy the toenails, hair, and fecal matter.

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## VIDEODROME



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## Brian4Liberty

Sounds like they are talking about processed meats like sausage. I try to avoid those. Bacon, ham, loin should still be good.

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## PaulConventionWV

> Every animal rolls around in its own excrement.  Cattle, sheep, goats, ESPECIALLY chickens....
> 
> And feeding them slop is the point.  You put good use to your leftover crap, and get tasty meat which perfectly compliments sauerkraut.


They're full of parasites.  Just... no.

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## amy31416

> Every animal rolls around in its own excrement.  Cattle, sheep, goats, ESPECIALLY chickens....
> 
> And feeding them slop is the point.  You put good use to your leftover crap, and get tasty meat which perfectly compliments sauerkraut.


Oh damn, that reminds me that I have pork and sauerkraut in the freezer. Going to find it now to have for dinner tomorrow.

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## heavenlyboy34

> Every animal rolls around in its own excrement.  Cattle, sheep, goats, ESPECIALLY chickens....
> 
> And feeding them slop is the point.  You put good use to your leftover crap, and get tasty meat which perfectly compliments sauerkraut.


+rep  Farm horses (particularly when they're young, in my experience) like to roll around in the muck.  Very lolz-y.

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## PaulConventionWV

> Oh damn, that reminds me that I have pork and sauerkraut in the freezer. Going to find it now to have for dinner tomorrow.


Don't forget to post about it on Facebook and Instagram.

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## Suzanimal

> Sounds like they are talking about processed meats like sausage. I try to avoid those. Bacon, ham, loin should still be good.


That's what it sounds like to me too.

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## Suzanimal

> I love turkey bacon.  I am much disappointed in you. 
> 
> I personally don't touch pork or any pig product.  This coming from the state that invented pepperoni rolls.  It's not for religious reasons, either.  Just don't like eating something that eats slop and rolls around in its own excrement.


Don't be disappointed, more turkey bacon for you, Badgiraffe, and HB34.

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## heavenlyboy34

> Don't be disappointed, more turkey bacon for you, Badgiraffe, and HB34.


I'll share with you if you want some, suz. ~hugs~

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## roho76

I wouldn't let the USDA anywhere near the pork I eat.

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## VIDEODROME

Does this explain the McRib?

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## dannno

> They're full of parasites.  Just... no.


Did you know the world recently changed their view on cooking pork all the way through? And guess what? We're all still alive. You can actually safely cook pork chops and loin medium rare. I would personally only do it with higher quality pork, but ya that's the new thing.

Medium rare pork served at a restaurant:




Pork is really delicious, it's kinda worth eating once in a while even if it is bad for you, which I don't think it is as long as the pig is raised naturally, has access to run around and be in a pasture from time to time.

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## Suzu

I have never liked pork. I especially hate bacon. It stinks worse than almost anything I can think of.

But for my friend, pork is a death sentence. He found out, the hard way, that he's allergic to meat. It can happen to anyone, right out of the blue. 

Did you know it's even possible to be allergic to meat? I didn't, and neither do most doctors!

Here's a bit more info:

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## PaulConventionWV

> Did you know the world recently changed their view on cooking pork all the way through? And guess what? We're all still alive. You can actually safely cook pork chops and loin medium rare. I would personally only do it with higher quality pork, but ya that's the new thing.
> 
> Medium rare pork served at a restaurant:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pork is really delicious, it's kinda worth eating once in a while even if it is bad for you, which I don't think it is as long as the pig is raised naturally, has access to run around and be in a pasture from time to time.


"Still alive" isn't exactly my standard for optimal health.

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## donnay

^^^ pretty scary.

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## Zippyjuan

> It's not the pigs fault the mass manufacturers are getting sloppy.. I get my pork from Trader Joe's, I also like wild boar.


All Trader Joe's products are sourced from major manufacturers (though they won't disclose which ones).

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## Suzanimal

> You mean Fakon?


It took me a minute to get that, very funny VIDEODROME.

Fakon, my new favorite word.

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## Suzanimal

>

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## Ronin Truth

So maybe the Jews and Muslims were really on to something, for all these centuries.

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## donnay

> So maybe the Jews and Muslims were really on to something, for all these centuries.


Christian's should take heed, as well.

Leviticus 11:7 - 11:8

-7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he [is] unclean to you.

-8 Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they [are] unclean to you.

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## donnay

*Damn double post*

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## phill4paul

I buy local. Been out to a few of the farms. All the animals look healthy. The butchering shop spotless. Do I pay more? Yes. Well worth it to me. I just eat less of it. Which has it's own benefits. Can't wait to smoke the first butt in the Spring and invite some friends over for pulled pork.

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## fisharmor

> They're full of parasites. Just... no.


They're not "full of parasites", they *can* have parasites.

Seriously... chicken.  They're every bit as disgusting as pigs, every bit as stinky, their meat is every bit as dangerous if not cooked properly.

Did you know there are a lot of places where it's illegal to sell dead crustaceans as food?  That's why lobsters are kept in a tank at the market... you literally have to kill them in the pot.  If you don't, you're playing a far more dangerous Russian Roulette than pigs bring to the table.

For that matter, FISH.  One of the healthiest things for you, and your window of opportunity for getting it on ice is a fraction of pork's, and your window of opportunity once it comes off of ice is shorter, too.




> Christian's should take heed, as well.
> 
> Leviticus 11:7 - 11:8
> 
> -7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he [is] unclean to you.
> 
> -8 Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they [are] unclean to you.


As I'm fond of pointing out, I don't intend to impregnate my sister-in-law if my brother dies, either.
Fish are totally kosher, and as I already pointed out, they get horrible pretty quickly.
I'm convinced this restriction on pork was symbolic more than anything: everyone around them ate it and didn't die.  It's not fair to them to assume they were all cavemen who couldn't have figured it out, either.  (They DID build some pyramids, after all.)
No, it likely had to do with the aforementioned fact that pigs eat garbage.

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## Zippyjuan

Plants have bugs and possibly animal poop on them too. Organic often uses manure for fertilizer.

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## donnay

> They're not "full of parasites", they *can* have parasites.
> 
> Seriously... chicken.  They're every bit as disgusting as pigs, every bit as stinky, their meat is every bit as dangerous if not cooked properly.
> 
> Did you know there are a lot of places where it's illegal to sell dead crustaceans as food?  That's why lobsters are kept in a tank at the market... you literally have to kill them in the pot.  If you don't, you're playing a far more dangerous Russian Roulette than pigs bring to the table.
> 
> For that matter, FISH.  One of the healthiest things for you, and your window of opportunity for getting it on ice is a fraction of pork's, and your window of opportunity once it comes off of ice is shorter, too.
> 
> 
> ...


Just pointing out that not all fish are kosher.  Only fish with scales and fins are.

I look at it this way, God made us, and I think he knows what is best for our health.

Pigs are great for cleaning the farm grounds.  They are scavengers--they do not sweat so any toxins they eat stays in their meat.

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## amy31416

> They're not "full of parasites", they *can* have parasites.
> 
> Seriously... chicken.  They're every bit as disgusting as pigs, every bit as stinky, their meat is every bit as dangerous if not cooked properly.
> 
> Did you know there are a lot of places where it's illegal to sell dead crustaceans as food?  That's why lobsters are kept in a tank at the market... you literally have to kill them in the pot.  If you don't, you're playing a far more dangerous Russian Roulette than pigs bring to the table.
> 
> For that matter, FISH.  One of the healthiest things for you, and your window of opportunity for getting it on ice is a fraction of pork's, and your window of opportunity once it comes off of ice is shorter, too.
> 
> 
> ...


No rep power for ya yet.




> Plants have bugs and possibly animal poop on them too. Organic often uses manure for fertilizer.


Food is dirty, because food grows out of dirt. Poop turns back into dirt. Poop is dirt.

If you want to consume only clean things, drink bleach.

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## dannno

> All Trader Joe's products are sourced from major manufacturers (though they won't disclose which ones).


Not all "major manufacturers" are equal and I know for a fact that Trader Joe's supplies from much higher quality producers than regular grocery stores. The bacon I get comes from Neemans Ranch, they treat their pigs well. It doesn't say that on the packaging, but they used essentially the same packaging and started selling it as their own years ago. It's pretty obvious when they brand their own where it once came from if you shop their regularly.

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## Ronin Truth

Fish swim in their toilets.

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## Zippyjuan

> Not all "major manufacturers" are equal and I know for a fact that Trader Joe's supplies from much higher quality producers than regular grocery stores. The bacon I get comes from Neemans Ranch, they treat their pigs well. It doesn't say that on the packaging, but they used essentially the same packaging and started selling it as their own years ago. It's pretty obvious when they brand their own where it once came from if you shop their regularly.


They do have a range of products- especially in their meats. 




> *We are also unable to confirm that animal products (meat, dairy and some farmed fish) sold under the Trader Joe's label are raised on only non-GMO feed,* due to the prevalence of GMOs in the commodity grain market, and the limited availability of verified non-GMO feed. For customers looking to avoid products from animals fed GMOs, we continue to carry organic meat and dairy products (organic standards prohibit the intentional use of GMOs) and wild-caught seafood. All organic products, regardless of brand, are by definition non-GMO.





> *What does the term "Natural" mean on meat and poultry product labels?*
> The government (USDA) defines "Natural," as used in the labeling of meat and poultry products, accordingly: "A product containing no artificial ingredient or added color and is only minimally processed. Minimal processing means that the product was processed in a manner that does not fundamentally alter the product. The label must include a statement explaining the meaning of the term natural (such as "no artificial ingredients; minimally processed")."
> 
> For Trader Joe's meat and poultry products, in addition to adhering to the specified USDA guidelines, the term "Natural" means that the animals were never treated with antibiotics and were given only vegetarian feed.


http://www.traderjoes.com/faqs/product-information

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jean-h...b_2775478.html




> Previous Consumers Union communications with Trader Joe's, along with surveys of their store shelves, show that the company offers three kinds of Trader Joe's-branded meat and poultry: *Organic* (and therefore inherently raised without antibiotics); their *"Natural"* line (which the company says is raised without antibiotics); *and conventional (in which the animals are often administered antibiotics).*
> 
> In most Trader Joe's stores, a shopper will typically find some options of beef and chicken that are Organic or Natural, but the rest of the meat -- *including just about all pork products* -- are conventional.


At a grocery store, they cut most of their meat fresh.  Trader Joe's has no meat cutters- all their meat is pre-packaged. You don't know how long ago it was cut and packaged.  At the grocery store, they don't keep fresh meats more than a few days and you can get it the day it was cut.  At TJ's it depends on how long their supply chain is but at least a day or two (or possibly longer) between when it was cut and it even gets to the store.

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## dannno

> They do have a range of products- especially in their meats. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.traderjoes.com/faqs/product-information
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jean-h...b_2775478.html
> ...


Here's one of their "major food producers" supplying some of their pork.

http://www.nimanranch.com/Index.aspx

I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me that the crap at the grocery store is anywhere near the level of quality that you will find at Trader Joe's. I don't care about FDA approved labeling standards that they have to conform to, they are very deceptive and can be expensive to conform to - not because it is expensive to conform to what is required but in order to pay the government to ensure compliance.

There is a good chance that a lot of the feed animals from TJ's get is GMO free, but because they can't get the approval from the FDA that it is all GMO free and it is very expensive to do so, they can't claim it.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Medium rare pork served at a restaurant:


I actually gag every time I browse across that image. :shudder:

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## GunnyFreedom

> Christian's should take heed, as well.
> 
> Leviticus 11:7 - 11:8
> 
> -7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he [is] unclean to you.
> 
> -8 Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they [are] unclean to you.


Meat laws were _explicitly_ overturned, so there is no more any kind of 'sinful' food for a Christian, however for health reasons I try to basically eat a kosher diet without giving a damn as to whether it's been 'blessed' or not.  Every once in a blue moon I'll eat something pork, partly because I love bacon (and a restaurant isn't going to have beef bacon), and partly to acknowledge that there is no such thing as sinful food anymore.

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## Zippyjuan

> Here's one of their "major food producers" supplying some of their pork.
> 
> http://www.nimanranch.com/Index.aspx
> 
> I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me that the crap at the grocery store is anywhere near the level of quality that you will find at Trader Joe's. I don't care about FDA approved labeling standards that they have to conform to, they are very deceptive and can be expensive to conform to - not because it is expensive to conform to what is required but in order to pay the government to ensure compliance.
> 
> There is a good chance that a lot of the feed animals from TJ's get is GMO free, but because they can't get the approval from the FDA that it is all GMO free and it is very expensive to do so, they can't claim it.



According to Wiki they also are a supplier to Safeway (which would be Vons in our neck of the woods).  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niman_Ranch




> In 2001 Niman entered an agreement to sell pork to Chipotle Mexican Grill, an 800-restaurant casual restaurant chain specializing in Mission-syle burritos and casual Mexican food. To meet the demand, Paul Willis recruited hog farmers, mostly from the Midwest, to raise pigs under contract.[6]
> 
> Today Niman Ranch sells to 1,200 restaurants and restaurant groups.[7] Two large grocery chains, Whole Foods Market and Trader Joe's, also carry Niman's branded meat products, as well as smaller grocers throughout the United States. *Safeway and other large chains have periodically carried the products on a regional basis.*
> 
> Success has brought considerable competition. Whole Foods Market and *Trader Joe's now carry their own house brands of high-quality premium meats, using many of the same production and marketing techniques*





> *In August 2007 Bill Niman left the Niman Ranch* after increasing confrontations with a new management team over money and animal protocols. Today Bill Niman is no longer part of the company and is forbidden to use his surname commercially.[11]* He refuses to eat the company's products*, because he alleges *such problems as the use of antimicrobials, less verifiable feeding standards, and poor animal treatment*.


Check out Aldi grocery stores in Germany.  They are the largest chain- the WalMart of grocers there (higher quality than WalMart though).  That is who own Trader Joe's (actually that company split into Nord and Sud [North and South]- Aldi Nord owns Trader Joes) and whose model they follow. They used to be a local chain but now are part of a huge international one. Aldi Nord owns about 5,000 stores. Aldi South- about 4,500.  http://www.forbes.com/sites/walterlo...s-is-a-winner/ 

For comparison, Albertsons has 1,069 stores, Kroger (Ralphs here) 2,460 stores, and Safeway around 1500.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._United_States  That makes Aldi Nord (owners of Trader Joes) as big as all three chains combined.  

I should add that I do shop Trader Joe's as well- for some items but not my main shopping and not meats.

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## GunnyFreedom

> According to Wiki they also are a supplier to Safeway (which would be Vons in our neck of the woods).  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niman_Ranch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Check out Aldi grocery stores in Germany.  They are the largest chain- the WalMart of grocers there (higher quality than WalMart though).  That is who own Trader Joe's and whose model they follow.  I should add that I do shop Trader Joe's as well- for some items but not my main shopping and not meats.


Plenty of Aldi's around here.  They sell the overstock from everyone else.  Cheapest food you can buy.  Sometimes they have really great high quality stuff cheaper than you can imagine.  Most of the time they just have really cheap stuff.  They save money, in part, by not having grocery bags.

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## donnay

> Meat laws were _explicitly_ overturned, so there is no more any kind of 'sinful' food for a Christian, however for health reasons I try to basically eat a kosher diet without giving a damn as to whether it's been 'blessed' or not.  Every once in a blue moon I'll eat something pork, partly because I love bacon (and a restaurant isn't going to have beef bacon), and partly to acknowledge that there is no such thing as sinful food anymore.


It's not a mortal sin, it is a sin against the flesh.  And it wasn't overturned or abolish...but it was fulfilled.  However, if you choose to eat pork that is your individual choice, just like anything else.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished” (Matthew 5:17-18).

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## Suzanimal

> Plenty of Aldi's around here.  They sell the overstock from everyone else.  Cheapest food you can buy.  Sometimes they have really great high quality stuff cheaper than you can imagine.  Most of the time they just have really cheap stuff.  They save money, in part, by not having grocery bags.


They also have great chocolate and I love their mixed nuts.

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## heavenlyboy34

> As I'm fond of pointing out, I don't intend to impregnate my sister-in-law if my brother dies, either.
> Fish are totally kosher, and as I already pointed out, they get horrible pretty quickly.
> I'm convinced this restriction on pork was symbolic more than anything: everyone around them ate it and didn't die.  It's not fair to them to assume they were all cavemen who couldn't have figured it out, either.  (They DID build some pyramids, after all.)
> No, it likely had to do with the aforementioned fact that pigs eat garbage.


This^^  the dietary and various other laws, rites, and customs were created primarily to distinguish ethnic Jews from the people around them and give them a sense of identity/community during and after the Babylonian exile.

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## Demigod

> So maybe the Jews and Muslims were really on to something, for all these centuries.


I would not take culture advises from people who cut their penises.

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## Zippyjuan

I don't know enough to verify it, but have heard that the Jewish food laws were mostly based on sanitation at the time- what were the safest foods to eat.

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## GunnyFreedom

> It's not a mortal sin, it is a sin against the flesh.  And it wasn't overturned or abolish...but it was fulfilled.  However, if you choose to eat pork that is your individual choice, just like anything else.
> 
> “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished” (Matthew 5:17-18).





> Acts 11:7-9  And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat. But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth. But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. KJV


*What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
*
Unclean meats was _specifically_ abolished.

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## donnay

> *What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
> *
> Unclean meats was _specifically_ abolished.


It is better explain here, if you want to listen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSbG...m-HkVS&index=4

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## specsaregood

> I don't know enough to verify it, but have heard that the Jewish food laws were mostly based on sanitation at the time- what were the safest foods to eat.


I haven't eaten enough to say for sure; but I have heard that pork is the closest tasting thing to human meat.

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## GunnyFreedom

> It is better explain here, if you want to listen.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSbG...m-HkVS&index=4


I don't need it explained.  I am a Christian who supports the Law.  When Yeshua "fulfilled" the law, He made it full. He did NOT 'abolish' it. Fulfilled is NOT a synonym for abolish.  I have been a Christian Law-Keeper since 1999. That means ALL of the Law.  When God says "I have made it clean," He damn well means "I have made it clean."  The only way you can reject this, is if you believe that the book of Acts is spurious.  I do not.

----------


## Suzanimal

> I haven't eaten enough to say for sure; but I have heard that pork is the closest tasting thing to human meat.


You haven't eaten enough what? Human meat???

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> According to Wiki they also are a supplier to Safeway (which would be Vons in our neck of the woods).  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niman_Ranch
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._United_States  That makes Aldi Nord (owners of Trader Joes) as big as all three chains combined.


"wikipedia."  I just edited the article to contradict everything you just said.

The Democratic Party pays you to shut down this forum, and this the best you do? Tsk tsk, Zip Head.

----------


## CPUd



----------


## amy31416

> I haven't eaten enough to say for sure; but I have heard that pork is the closest tasting thing to human meat.


What the $#@!ing $#@!ity $#@!?

----------


## VIDEODROME



----------


## specsaregood

> What the $#@!ing $#@!ity $#@!?


http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-...sive-180949562



> Both serial killers and Polynesian cannibals have described human as being most akin to pork.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> They're not "full of parasites", they *can* have parasites.
> 
> Seriously... chicken.  They're every bit as disgusting as pigs, every bit as stinky, their meat is every bit as dangerous if not cooked properly.
> 
> Did you know there are a lot of places where it's illegal to sell dead crustaceans as food?  That's why lobsters are kept in a tank at the market... you literally have to kill them in the pot.  If you don't, you're playing a far more dangerous Russian Roulette than pigs bring to the table.
> 
> For that matter, FISH.  One of the healthiest things for you, and your window of opportunity for getting it on ice is a fraction of pork's, and your window of opportunity once it comes off of ice is shorter, too.


Fish is one of the healthiest things for you?  That's news to me.  I actually prefer not to eat seafood either.  




> As I'm fond of pointing out, I don't intend to impregnate my sister-in-law if my brother dies, either.
> Fish are totally kosher, and as I already pointed out, they get horrible pretty quickly.


Are they kosher?  I was under the impression that they were not.




> I'm convinced this restriction on pork was symbolic more than anything: everyone around them ate it and didn't die.  It's not fair to them to assume they were all cavemen who couldn't have figured it out, either.  (They DID build some pyramids, after all.)
> No, it likely had to do with the aforementioned fact that pigs eat garbage.


I'm going to take the Bible's advice on this one and avoid fish or pork if I can.  I can't necessarily rationalize it, but it's been a habit since I've grown up, so I see no harm in continuing with my beef and chicken-laden diet.  Fish are kind of disgusting to me and pigs really just seem less clean.  Like I said, I can't rationalize it if you insist on saying that pigs can be every bit as clean as other meats, but I guess it's just a conditioned response by now... yuck.

----------


## Suzanimal

> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-...sive-180949562


I don't trust serial killers and cannibals.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Plants have bugs and possibly animal poop on them too. Organic often uses manure for fertilizer.


The difference is that the plants don't eat the manure.

----------


## amy31416

> Fish is one of the healthiest things for you?  That's news to me.  I actually prefer not to eat seafood either.  
> 
> 
> 
> Are they kosher?  I was under the impression that they were not.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to take the Bible's advice on this one and avoid fish or pork if I can.  I can't necessarily rationalize it, but it's been a habit since I've grown up, so I see no harm in continuing with my beef and chicken-laden diet.  Fish are kind of disgusting to me and pigs really just seem less clean.  Like I said, I can't rationalize it if you insist on saying that pigs can be every bit as clean as other meats, but I guess it's just a conditioned response by now... yuck.


Uh. You would be wrong, and should look up kosher laws if you desire to be kosher (aka halal.)

----------


## specsaregood

> I don't trust serial killers and cannibals.


Dunno, they did eat a Rockefeller, so at least they got that going for em.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Just pointing out that not all fish are kosher.  Only fish with scales and fins are.
> 
> I look at it this way, God made us, and I think he knows what is best for our health.
> 
> Pigs are great for cleaning the farm grounds.  They are scavengers--they do not sweat so any toxins they eat stays in their meat.


I didn't know that.  Thanks.  

Now I have my rationale.

----------


## amy31416

> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-...sive-180949562





> It was like good, fully developed veal, not young, but not yet beef. It was very definitely like that, and it was not like any other meat I had ever tasted. It was so nearly like good, fully developed veal that I think no person with a palate of ordinary, normal sensitiveness could distinguish it from veal. It was mild, good meat with no other sharply defined or highly characteristic taste such as for instance, goat, high game, and pork have. The steak was slightly tougher than prime veal, a little stringy, but not too tough or stringy to be agreeably edible. The roast, from which I cut and ate a central slice, was tender, and in color, texture, smell as well as taste, strengthened my certainty that of all the meats we habitually know, veal is the one meat to which this meat is accurately comparable.
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-...lefgkmq1rR2.99
> Give the gift of Smithsonian magazine for only $12! http://bit.ly/1cGUiGv
> Follow us: @SmithsonianMag on Twitter


I might have to go vomit.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Meat laws were _explicitly_ overturned, so there is no more any kind of 'sinful' food for a Christian, however for health reasons I try to basically eat a kosher diet without giving a damn as to whether it's been 'blessed' or not.  Every once in a blue moon I'll eat something pork, partly because I love bacon (and a restaurant isn't going to have beef bacon), and partly to acknowledge that there is no such thing as sinful food anymore.


I don't think it was actually _sinful_ in the first place.  I don't see Leviticus 11:7-8 as a command, but rather a strong suggestion.

There may have been laws against it back in those days, but that's a different thing altogether.

----------


## dannno

> I'm going to take the Bible's advice on this one and avoid fish


*forehead smack*

SHELLFISH is what you would avoid....



Jesus fed the masses with two fish and some loaves of bread.

Shellfish, however, is very delicious and pretty healthy so I would not avoid it except for during certain seasons.. humans have already figured all this meat safety stuff out for the most part.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> I haven't eaten enough to say for sure; but I have heard that pork is the closest tasting thing to human meat.


Well, why speculate?  Here's your answer:




> 'Human Flesh Tastes Like Pork'





> "The flesh tastes like pork, a little bit more bitter, stronger.* It tastes quite good*," he said.


~Armin Meiwes, cannibal killer

----------


## dannno

> The difference is that the plants don't eat the manure.


Plants absolutely do eat manure..

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> They also have great chocolate and I love their mixed nuts.


Speaking of mixed nuts:




> "I sauteed the steak of Bernd, with salt, pepper, garlic and *nutmeg.* I had it with Princess croquettes, Brussels sprouts and a green pepper sauce," said Meiwes.


~Armin Meiwes, cannibal killer

----------


## amy31416

> *forehead smack*
> 
> SHELLFISH is what you would avoid....
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus fed the masses with two fish and some loaves of bread.
> 
> Shellfish, however, is very delicious and pretty healthy so I would not avoid it except for during certain seasons.. humans have already figured all this meat safety stuff out for the most part.


Uhh, yeah. There's a reason that allegedly religious people use a fish as their symbol.

But I'll take shellfish over regular fish any day, don't care what anybody's religious text says.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> I don't know enough to verify it, but have heard that the Jewish food laws were mostly based on sanitation at the time- what were the safest foods to eat.


That's what I heard as well.

----------


## Suzanimal

> Speaking of mixed nuts:
> 
> 
> ~Armin Meiwes, cannibal killer


I always heard it paired well with fava beans and a nice chianti.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Uh. You would be wrong, and should look up kosher laws if you desire to be kosher (aka halal.)


Wrong about what?

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> *forehead smack*
> 
> SHELLFISH is what you would avoid....
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus fed the masses with two fish and some loaves of bread.
> 
> Shellfish, however, is very delicious and pretty healthy so I would not avoid it except for during certain seasons.. humans have already figured all this meat safety stuff out for the most part.


Right, whatever.  I prefer not to eat most fish regardless of what the Bible says.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Plants absolutely do eat manure..


Explain.

----------


## amy31416

> Wrong about what?


Fish. It is kosher.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Fish. It is kosher.


Fine, whatever.  I still don't like it.

----------


## amy31416

> Fine, whatever.  I still don't like it.


Good. More for me and Jesus.

----------


## Zippyjuan

There are a lot of different flavors and textures in fish.  Don't write them all off.  Canned tuna isn't exciting. Most people have had either that or fried fish.  Halibut is sweet and tasty.  Tilapia has little flavor (and is the most common fish today- farm raised).  Don't like salmon? Another fish which has no flavor when farm raised.  Wild salmon is much tastier. I ordered some sent directly from Alaska for Christmas.  If over-cooked, any fish will be dry.  I never got into sushi.  But I think it was the taste of the seaweed wrapper that turned me off.  Some co-worker said "Here- try this!" and handed me a pea sized green ball.  What is it?  Just try it!  Wasabi.  Didn't know what it was at the time.  My eyes got really watery and my mouth kept getting hotter while they all laughed.

----------


## dannno

> Explain.


http://www.garden.org/ediblelandscap...animal-manures

----------


## dannno

> Explain.


http://www.garden.org/ediblelandscap...animal-manures

----------


## Suzanimal

> Speaking of mixed nuts:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				"I sauteed the steak of Bernd, with salt, pepper, garlic and nutmeg. I had it with Princess croquettes, Brussels sprouts and a green pepper sauce," said Meiwes.
> 			
> ...


Is it me or do cannibals sound like gourmet cooks.

----------


## dannno

> Is it me or do cannibals sound like gourmet cooks.


Checkout the movie "Ravenous"

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> http://www.garden.org/ediblelandscap...animal-manures


tl;dr

----------


## specsaregood

..

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> I don't think it was actually _sinful_ in the first place.  I don't see Leviticus 11:7-8 as a command, but rather a strong suggestion.
> 
> There may have been laws against it back in those days, but that's a different thing altogether.


It was, in fact, sinful.  For a variety of reasons, cleanliness was only a part of it.  There was also the point of 'separation from amongst the nations.'  That separation is one of the reasons the ordinance was repealed when it came time for the Great Commission.  Separation time was over.

----------


## CPUd



----------


## opal

<--- vegetarian since '94 --- still miss bacon
veggie bacon is NOT bacon

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Good. More for me and Jesus.


Save some for me, hun!  Except the "fishy"-tasting sort of fish.  You can have all those. :P

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Save some for me, hun!  Except the "fishy"-tasting sort of fish.  You can have all those. :P




om nom nom nom MMMMM MMMMM GOOD!

----------


## CPUd



----------


## amy31416

> Save some for me, hun!  Except the "fishy"-tasting sort of fish.  You can have all those. :P


Eat yer sardines and shaddap, they're good for you!

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Eat yer sardines and shaddap, they're good for you!


Especially the King Oscar ones.

----------


## specsaregood

I'm having some bacon tomorrow morning.  I aint worried about some USDA schmucks losing their jobs; haters gonna hate, leeches gonna leech.

----------


## jessahick

> *What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
> *
> Unclean meats was _specifically_ abolished.


Gunny dear... where does that say meat? And please allow the time for me  to play catch up on this.....

It IS far more important what comes out of one's mouth than what goes in. That what your verses in Acts says. 

The post donnay asked you to view is one I have been asking you to check out for years now. Are you seriously that far *above*  the average folk that you have nothing left to learn? 

I love you and i ain't skeered.

It is NOT a sin that damns one to hell-eating pork that is. Is IS a sin against the flesh in that pigs STILL do not have sweat glands and aren't the healthiest for our bodies, hence the term sin against the flesh. The clean and unclean animals did not change after Christ, neither did basic Levitican cleanliness standards. Nearness to God after death was not reliant upon one's adherence to those standards due to Christ, but Christ himself followed those standards.  

We wash our hands today because of those standards and most of our cleanliness codes are based in those old Levitican law. 

What those verses in Acts also say is basically to not starve yourself.  If you are hungry and in need and someone hands you a pork sammich, you should eat it. 

Helloooooo Gunny. 

Watch the YouTube donnay shared. Please.

----------


## jessahick

> I don't need it explained.  I am a Christian who supports the Law.  When Yeshua "fulfilled" the law, He made it full. He did NOT 'abolish' it. Fulfilled is NOT a synonym for abolish.  I have been a Christian Law-Keeper since 1999. That means ALL of the Law.  When God says "I have made it clean," He damn well means "I have made it clean."  The only way you can reject this, is if you believe that the book of Acts is spurious.  I do not.


We all can learn something new if we open our minds just a little bit. Listen to Dr. Dennis on this one. God did not give pigs Sweat glands, shellfish are still filters. They are still not healthy for human consumption. Salvation (nearness to God to the Jew) is simply not reliant on anything other than Jesus. Nothing else matters ultimately. But is is far healthier for our human flesh bodies to not eat these critters. 

That's all donnay is saying. 

You're too damn smart for your own good ya know. Step outside your box every so often... ya'll were basically saying the same thing in the end.

Do you have any idea how it it has taken me to type on the stoopid smrt phone? It is quicker tHan the computer tho lol.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> We all can learn something new if we open our minds just a little bit. Listen to Dr. Dennis on this one. God did not give pigs Sweat glands, shellfish are still filters. They are still not healthy for human consumption. Salvation (nearness to God to the Jew) is simply not reliant on anything other than Jesus. Nothing else matters ultimately. But is is far healthier for our human flesh bodies to not eat these critters. 
> 
> That's all donnay is saying. 
> 
> You're too damn smart for your own good ya know. Step outside your box every so often... ya'll were basically saying the same thing in the end.
> 
> Do you have any idea how it it has taken me to type on the stoopid smrt phone? It is quicker tHan the computer tho lol.


Yeah, I never said pork was healthy, just that it's no longer sinful.  Almost _anything_ you eat, drink, or breathe anymore is going to be bad for you.  I totally agree that pork is one of the, if not the unhealthiest unprocessed food there is in existence, that's why I avoid it so passionately (except for the once or twice a year I eat pork just to remind myself that it's no longer sinful).  I just do not like the characterization of calling it 'sin,' because God Himself explicitly made it 'not sinful,' and who am I to tell God that He's wrong?

I mean, I eat more kosher than most Jews, and more halal than most Muslims.  I just can't handle characterizing something as 'sinful' when God by His own Hand reached down and said, "this is no longer a sin."  It feels mildly blasphemous.

----------


## jessahick

> Yeah, I never said pork was healthy, just that it's no longer sinful.  Almost _anything_ you eat, drink, or breathe anymore is going to be bad for you.  I totally agree that pork is one of the, if not the unhealthiest unprocessed food there is in existence, that's why I avoid it so passionately (except for the once or twice a year I eat pork just to remind myself that it's no longer sinful).  I just do not like the characterization of calling it 'sin,' because God Himself explicitly made it 'not sinful,' and who am I to tell God that He's wrong?
> 
> I mean, I eat more kosher than most Jews, and more halal than most Muslims.  I just can't handle characterizing something as 'sinful' when God by His own Hand reached down and said, "this is no longer a sin."  It feels mildly blasphemous.


Huh?

Way to blow me off! 

You've torn down one of the same faith saying the same thing as yourself cuz your offended by her use of the term "sin of the flesh"? To the point where of oozing pompousness...you do come across very condescending, whether you mean to or not.

I've been asking you to view Dr Murray for a few years now, haven't i? If your knowledge is so great that you have no need of checking out someone else's teachings... if you want folk to take your passions and words here to heart- and I KNOW you've got a lot to offer this world.... then you should treat other the way your want to be treated ya know?  

if you could be bothered to take the 30 min it would take to listen, you'll understand better where I am coming from.

And then I'll be happy to discuss this further if you still disagree after viewing it.

Kosher? Who keeps bringing up that kenite terminology?

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Gunny dear... where does that say meat?


The only things these two passages (Acts 10, and his report in Acts 11)could possibly be talking about in context, is meat.




> Acts 10:9-16 On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; and he saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, and there were in it all kinds of four-footed _animals_ and crawling _creatures_ of the earth and _birds_ of the air. A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, _kill and eat!_” But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for _I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean._” Again a voice came to him a second time, _“What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.”_ This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky. [NASB]





> And please allow the time for me  to play catch up on this.....
> 
> It IS far more important what comes out of one's mouth than what goes in. That what your verses in Acts says.


Actually, the section I quoted in Acts was entirely different than Matthew 15:11. The section in Acts 10 was specifically detailing that un-kosher meats were no longer to be considered unholy.




> The post donnay asked you to view is one I have been asking you to check out for years now. Are you seriously that far *above*  the average folk that you have nothing left to learn?


No, what annoyed me was that I've been a Christian lawkeeper since the freaking 90's and she was being overly pedantic about it, talking to me like I was stupid for believing that Christ abolished the Law, as if I haven't already explained this to everyone I know 1000 times that I have NEVER believe that "Christ abolished the Law."

It wasn't the link that annoyed me, it was the implication that "you are ignorant because you believe that Christ abolished the Law, here this link will explain it for you."  I have never, ever, believed that Christ abolished the Law, and if anybody has been paying attention to what I believe, they would know that.  It's not like I've kept it a secret.  If someone knows what I believe and they think they have something to teach me, that is one thing, which I have no problem with.  If someone has _no clue_ what I believe and think they have something to teach me, that is another, mildly annoying thing.  If someone has known me for 5 years, _still has no clue what I believe,_ and they think they have something to teach me, then yes, I am going to get annoyed. If someone has hung around me for 5 years and yet has no idea what I believe to begin with, then how can they imagine they have something to teach me?   

That's not pride or any such thing.  I don't really consider myself 'better,' it's more of a logic thing.  If someone has hung around me for 5 years and can't be bothered to figure out what I _already_ believe before telling me what _they think I need to_ believe, then yes, I am going to be dismissive.  That's an entirely different thing from someone I do not know telling me something I may or may not already know.  This new person would never have had the opportunity to know what I do and do not believe.

Donnay has known me here for 5 years.  I have been WIDE OPEN about my beliefs.  If she does not know by now that I am a Christian lawkeeper, then she's not paying attention.  Her referral was phrased in a way to 'correct' what she should have already known I was 'correct' about.

Would you, with all you know about me, ever imply that I know nothing about the Hebrew language and tell me that I need to go and learn what DABAR meant before I could understand a passage?  Of course not.  You may think I was in error about something, but when you told me to go look it up you would start from a place where I already knew Hebrew, because you know me, and you know that I already know Hebrew.

I love you too, and you know I do, but if you were to imply that I needed to go and learn Hebrew first and then come back to you, (knowing that I am already a strong scholar of Biblical Hebrew) then I would get annoyed at that, too; and I likewise would say "I don't need to go and learn Hebrew first" not because I didn't think Hebrew was important to the passage, but because I already know Hebrew and you know that I do.

Donnay knows me well enough by now, and I have been open enough about my beliefs that she should darn well know that I am a Christian lawkeeper, and the implication that I am ignorant on that matter was what I was rejecting.




> I love you and i ain't skeered.
> 
> It is NOT a sin that damns one to hell-eating pork that is. Is IS a sin against the flesh in that pigs STILL do not have sweat glands and aren't the healthiest for our bodies, hence the term sin against the flesh. The clean and unclean animals did not change after Christ, neither did basic Levitican cleanliness standards. Nearness to God after death was not reliant upon one's adherence to those standards due to Christ, but Christ himself followed those standards.


I avoid pork like the plague, but I won't call it 'sinful' even if you hold a gun to my head.  If God has made something "not-sinful" then to call it "sinful" is akin to calling God a liar, is it not?

Peter and the vision of the Great Sheet happened after Yeshua had already been raised from the dead, spent 40 days on Earth, and ascended into Heaven.  *Before* that vision, pork was sinful, therefore it makes sense that Yeshua would follow that standard.  _After_ that vision, Messiah was already ascended, and He was no longer hanging out physically on the Earth to eat and drink with folks.




> We wash our hands today because of those standards and most of our cleanliness codes are based in those old Levitican law. 
> 
> What those verses in Acts also say is basically to not starve yourself.  If you are hungry and in need and someone hands you a pork sammich, you should eat it.


Remember also when Paul called Peter out for hypocrisy by pretending to be kosher with the Jews, and pretending to be common with the Gentiles.  It was not bad that he was eating the same food that the Jews ate when he was with the Jews, Paul didn't expect Peter to gnosh on some pork chops in a synagogue, Paul himself said that he was a Jew around Jews and a Gentile around Gentiles (paraphrased), but Paul was angry at Peter for affirming amongst the Jews that pork was sinful when God had explicitly said otherwise.  Once God says "this is no longer a sin," if I were to say or agree that "this is a sin," I would be calling God a liar.

I wouldn't even agree to *that* for my own mother, whom I love dearly.  




> Helloooooo Gunny.


Hello Jessa! Glad to see you here, even if it was this particular madness that brought you back. 




> Watch the YouTube donnay shared. Please.


I suspect, given that donnay wanted me to watch it to "educate me on the fact that Messiah did not abolish the law,"  that I already agree with the content of the video.  If the guy calls it 'sinful' however, I'm not going to like it, because God _explicitly_ de-sin-afied pork.  And I'm probably the most pork-less carnivorous Christian on this entire board.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Eat yer sardines and shaddap, they're good for you!


Only if I can put them on gluten free pizza or something, Mistress Amypi.   ~hugs~

----------


## jessahick

She NEVER said Christ abolished the law, indeed otherwise. He fulfilled it is what she said.  

Dr is the same Dr Murray I've been asking you to listen to for years. He was Donnie ' s teacher since 1980's.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Huh?
> 
> Way to blow me off!


I do not understand how any of that was blowing you off.




> You've torn down one of the same faith saying the same thing as yourself cuz your offended by her use of the term "sin of the flesh"? To the point where of oozing pompousness...you do come across very condescending, whether you mean to or not.


No, I'm simply saying that "What God has cleansed, I will not call unholy."  That is directly from the text of the Bible.  I'm sorry if it sounds pompous or condescending, but I don't know how to put it any other way.  




> I've been asking you to view Dr Murray for a few years now, haven't i?


I've also been watching Arnold Murray from before I met you.  Not on a daily basis like you do, but Murray was one of the first teachers I encountered after I was saved in 1998.  He is also one of the few that I do not consider to be wrong on many points.




> If your knowledge is so great that you have no need of checking out someone else's teachings... if you want folk to take your passions and words here to heart- and I KNOW you've got a lot to offer this world.... then you should treat other the way your want to be treated ya know?


Actually, this is a great example of what I'm talking about.  I already watch/listen to/believe Arnold Murray, and have since 1998.  I'm not dismissing Arnold Murray in any way, shape, or form.




> if you could be bothered to take the 30 min it would take to listen, you'll understand better where I am coming from.
> 
> And then I'll be happy to discuss this further if you still disagree after viewing it.
> 
> Kosher? Who keeps bringing up that kenite terminology?


This whole argument seems to arise from a perception that I don't think pork is bad for you.  That perception is in error.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> She NEVER said Christ abolished the law, indeed otherwise. He fulfilled it is what she said.  
> 
> Dr is the same Dr Murray I've been asking you to listen to for years. He was Donnie ' s teacher since 1980's.


I never said that she said Christ abolished the Law.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> I never said that she said Christ abolished the Law.


I was annoyed because she was treating me like I was an ignorant child who thought that Messiah abolished the Law, when I have never believed such a thing, EVER.  If someone can hang around me for 5-7 _years_ and not be bothered to understand what it is that I believe in the first place, then they should not be treating me like an ignorant child who needs their wisdom.  That's not 'me thinking I am better wiser or smarter,' but just common courtesy.  I would never dare to accuse someone of being ignorant of something when I had no idea whether or not they were in fact ignorant of that something.

----------


## jessahick

That's the thing. We are all on the same page!!! And instead of lifting up and supporting, you're putting words in people's mouths... no one called them unholy, and you are nitpicking. Clarification was offered through an outside source (who really is better at explaining Levitican law) and was continually blown off. The link she gave was his consise explanation of why she calls eating pork a sin against our human flesh.

Blown way out of proportion.  Whew!

And you've totally got the edge with a real computer and keyboard. There is no way I can dissect your quotes... but there really is no need, you've done it for both of us.

Just saying...what's really important here? Pork ain't healthy for human consumption. Eating pork won't alter your personal salvation status by any means but it sure ain't good for ya.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> That's the thing. We are all on the same page!!! And instead of lifting up and supporting, you're putting words in people's mouths...


What you appear to be missing, is that this started by her tearing me down in the first place, and so I reacted in an annoyed fashion for having been torn down.  You are calling me out for getting annoyed that she tore me down, and totally overlooking the fact that this whole mess started with her tearing me down.




> no one called them unholy, and you are nitpicking. Clarification was offered through an outside source (who really is better at explaining Levitican law) and was continually blown off. The link she gave was his consise explanation of why she calls eating pork a sin against our human flesh.


Unholy = sinful.  I will NOT call something sinful, that God has de-sin-ified.  That would be calling God a liar.  Calling God a liar is neither nitpicking nor being blown out of proportion, it's a BIG DEAL.  




> Blown way out of proportion.  Whew!
> 
> And you've totally got the edge with a real computer and keyboard. There is no way I can dissect your quotes... but there really is no need, you've done it for both of us.
> 
> Just saying...what's really important here? Pork ain't healthy for human consumption. Eating pork won't alter your personal salvation status by any means but it sure ain't good for ya.


Pork is exceedingly unhealthy.  I agree 1000%.  Someone calls pork a 'sin' and I will vehemently and passionately disagree, because to call pork 'sinful' is to call God a liar, and that bothers me in the worst way.  You may think it's semantics, I do not.  Let's call it 'unhealthy' or 'bad for you,' and I am 1000% with you, but as soon as you break out the "s" word, I'm going to reject it because it directly contradicts God, as reported in God's Word.

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## jessahick

> I was annoyed because she was treating me like I was an ignorant child who thought that Messiah abolished the Law, when I have never believed such a thing, EVER.  If someone can hang around me for 5-7 _years_ and not be bothered to understand what it is that I believe in the first place, then they should not be treating me like an ignorant child who needs their wisdom.  That's not 'me thinking I am better wiser or smarter,' but just common courtesy.  I would never dare to accuse someone of being ignorant of something when I had no idea whether or not they were in fact ignorant of that something.


sweetie that's your opinion.  Why did you choose to make it so personal? the murrays are really good at explaining this sort of stuff ya know. I never read her responses to you that way... that's how you read them. She didn't accuse you of anything. I love you both and we should all be lifting each up in this war against evil. And pork.

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## jessahick

> Meat laws were _explicitly_ overturned, so there is no more any kind of 'sinful' food for a Christian, however for health reasons I try to basically eat a kosher diet without giving a damn as to whether it's been 'blessed' or not.  Every once in a blue moon I'll eat something pork, partly because I love bacon (and a restaurant isn't going to have beef bacon), and partly to acknowledge that there is no such thing as sinful food anymore.


This was your initial response to donnay's message on Levitican law. 

Jesus wiped all sin away; there is no more sin. Agreed.  Yours wasn't an explanation of why & how the use of the use of the word sin would be nonapplicable. 

I read every post of this thread at least twice before figuring out how to actually post.  And yes, from what I've read she is appealing to you to listen to what Murray has to say about this subject and you blowing her off. No one is treating anyone in any way poorly except neither rod you is actually hearing what the other is saying and it's the same dadgum thing. Defiling the temple.

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## TheTexan

> Toenails, hair


...so?




> fecal matter


It's probably OK to eat as long as it's cooked... and as long as its in a small enough quantity to not affect the taste... shrug.

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## PaulConventionWV

> It was, in fact, sinful.  For a variety of reasons, cleanliness was only a part of it.  There was also the point of 'separation from amongst the nations.'  That separation is one of the reasons the ordinance was repealed when it came time for the Great Commission.  Separation time was over.


Well, we may have different interpretations of the Old Testament.  I don't actually think any of the sins in the OT became "not sins."  I don't think Jesus actually changed anything in the OT.  Moreover, I think biblical sin in the OT was punishable either by death or by blood sacrifice.  I realize I have a fairly minority view on biblical sin, so I will concede the point even though I disagree.

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## GunnyFreedom

> This was your initial response to donnay's message on Levitican law. 
> 
> Jesus wiped all sin away; there is no more sin. Agreed.  Yours wasn't an explanation of why & how the use of the use of the word sin would be nonapplicable. 
> 
> I read every post of this thread at least twice before figuring out how to actually post.  And yes, from what I've read she is appealing to you to listen to what Murray has to say about this subject and you blowing her off. No one is treating anyone in any way poorly except neither rod you is actually hearing what the other is saying and it's the same dadgum thing. Defiling the temple.


All I said was that calling it 'sinful' is wrong, because God explicitly made it not-sinful, and I backed up my statement with a quote from the Bible.  For that, I was accused of believing that Christ abolished the law, when I have _never believed such a thing in my life._  I wasn't blowing off Arnold Murray, nor was I blowing off her position that pork is bad for you, I was blowing off a false accusation.  That's what we are _supposed_ to do with false accusations - blow them off.  I provided enough evidence to demonstrate that the accusation (of my alleged belief that Messiah abolished the Law) was false, and then I dropped the matter entirely.  

I have said what I have to say on the matter, and now I will drop this discussion also, as it is not profitable.  Neither of you can see that I was not the one who offended her, but she was the one who offended me.  That's fine.  I believe that it's clear enough to most people that I don't need to keep rehashing what is already apparent.

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## jessahick

where exactly did donnay accuse you of anything? I have scoured this thread trying to find it and ain't found a thing.

However- I accused you of being both arrogant and condescending In your later replies to her. I'd really like to hear YOUR THOUGHTS on what Dr Dennis Murray has to say about this topic. That's really all I wanted here.

Perhaps I shouldn't have started off with an attack.... but both of us call it like we see it right? No bs here. Don't get defensive;  own it & move on please. 

Have a good night! 

Since you obviously don't want to listen to dennis, then fine.

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## GunnyFreedom

Deleted all of this part above as irrelevant and overly re-hashed.




> I'd really like to hear YOUR THOUGHTS on what Dr Dennis Murray has to say about this topic. That's really all I wanted here.


I am watching it now.  His analysis of Leviticus is perfect.  He, like donnay, is simply overlooking Acts 10.  Call it unhealthy all day long.  There is, after all, a reason that I observe the dietary laws.  But we cannot call it sinful anymore, and that is the one place where Dr. Murray has it wrong.  

Acts 10:15 Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.” [NASB]

You know that I avoid pork like the plague.  Once, maybe twice a year I eat it on purpose, (even though I hate it) specifically so that I do not fall into this exact same trap.  I will call it 'desperately unhealthy' but I will never call it 'sinful,' because God explicitly said not to.

Dennis is perfectly correct in his analysis of Leviticus.  He is also perfectly correct as to the fact that pork and other formerly unholy meats are not healthy at all.  He is, however, wrong to use words like "sin" or "unholy" to describe them, because God explicitly told Peter not to do that.

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## GunnyFreedom

I couldn't deal with it anymore.  This whole conversation has made me hungry for bacon, so I'm broiling up the last of my _beef_ bacon.

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