# Lifestyles & Discussion > Peace Through Religion >  Bible Challenge!

## TER

Okay everyone, this is a bible challenge to test your skillz of the Holy Scriptures!

Today's challenge is this:

*Which book of the Holy Scriptures is this prophecy about Christ written in?*

Let us lie in ambush for the righteous man, because he is useless to us and opposes our deeds;
 he denounces us for our sins against the law and accuses us of sins against our upbringing. 
He claims to have knowledge of God, and he calls himself a child of the Lord.
 He has become for us as a refutation of our purposes; 
even seeing him is a burden to us, because his life is unlike that of others; 
for his paths go in a different direction. 
We are considered by him as a hybrid, and he avoids our ways as something immoral.

He considers the last things of the righteous as blessed and pretends that God is his Father. 
Let us see if his words are true, and let us put these last things to the test at the end of his life. 

For if the righteous man is a son of God, He will help him, and deliver him from the hand of those who oppose him.

Let us test him with insult and torture that we may know his gentleness and test his patient endurance. 

Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for there shall be a visitation because of his words.

_HINT:_ In this prophecy, we hear about someone who claims to be the Son of God, and who is tortured, and is condemned to a shameful death. This prophecy is written from the perspective of those who condemn Christ. Many years before they are even born, we get to hear the internal thought processes of the Pharisees.  The prophecy itself is written above, word-for-word from the Old Testament.

Good luck!

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## Natural Citizen

Proverbs....Wisdom on the flipside.

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## TER

oohh  so close.... try again!

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## Natural Citizen

It seems to me that I've specifically posted this, briefly, here some place on the forums. I don't don't recall where or why now but probably had a reason for it...which I don't remember. And I never post scripture.

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## Dr.3D

Wisdom of Solomon 2:12-20

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## Terry1

I couldn't remember, so I had to cheat and take a peak.  I should have known this one.

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## TER

> Wisdom of Solomon 2:12-20


*WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!*

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## TER

> Proverbs....*Wisdom* on the flipside.


Partial credit given here to NC since the other name for this Book of the Old Testament is called "Wisdom".

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## jmdrake

I would have guessed Psalms.

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## TER

okay, ready for another?  Here it goes...

*Which book of the Holy Scriptures is this prophecy about Christ written in?*

For even if they should rear their children, yet shall they be utterly bereaved: wherefore also there is woe to them, though My flesh is of them.

HINT:  In this prophecy in the Old Testament about Christ, we learn that the Messiah will have flesh as they do, that is, that God will be incarnate into human flesh.

Good luck!

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## pcosmar

> oohh  so close.... try again!


This book is not in the Bible.

It is the book of Wisdom. and is one apocrypha.

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## Terry1

Ewee, we should start a thread on the Apocrypha.  Love Enoch.  I also remember a great discussion on the canopy theory too.  Great stuff.

The Nephilim is also a great topic.

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## TER

> This book is not in the Bible.
> 
> It is the book of Wisdom. and is one apocrypha.


Actually, it is one of the Books of the Bible and has been for thousands of years, including the 2000 year history of the Christian Church!  Unfortunately, some of the later Reformers of recent times (the first Protestants actually regarded it as canonical) have distanced themselves from this book and now it is not found in most modern English Bibles, but the fact remains that it has always been considered inspired writings of the Scriptures.

That would be another good question to ask now that I think of it:

*Why did the Reformers refuse to accept this as an inspired book of the Holy Scriptures when 1600 years of Christians before them did?*

This is not a trick question!  I really have no idea why!

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## Natural Citizen

> Actually, it is one of the Books of the Bible and has been for thousands of years, including the 2000 year history of the Christian Church!  Unfortunately, some of the later Reformers of recent times (the first Protestants actually regarded it as canonical) have distanced themselves from this book and now it is not found in most modern English Bibles, but the fact remains that it has always been considered inspired writings of the Scriptures.
> 
> That would be another good question to ask now that I think of it:
> 
> *Why did the Reformers refuse to accept this as an inspired book of the Holy Scriptures when 1600 years of Christians before them did?*
> 
> This is not a trick question!  I really have no idea why!


I think this is why I brought this up previously. Was probably in one of those threads where i was yapping about translation or something along those lines. It may have been in a S_F thread so no way I'm going there or even bothering to look for it.

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## Dr.3D

Here is a hint..... LXE.

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## TER

> Here is a hint..... LXE.


 I googled LXE and still don't know..  I needz more hints please

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## Dr.3D

> I googled LXE and still don't know..  I needz more hints please


That's the English translation of the LXX.
Septuagint

As per post #10.

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## Terry1

> Actually, it is one of the Books of the Bible and has been for thousands of years, including the 2000 year history of the Christian Church!  Unfortunately, some of the later Reformers of recent times (the first Protestants actually regarded it as canonical) have distanced themselves from this book and now it is not found in most modern English Bibles, but the fact remains that it has always been considered inspired writings of the Scriptures.
> 
> That would be another good question to ask now that I think of it:
> 
> *Why did the Reformers refuse to accept this as an inspired book of the Holy Scriptures when 1600 years of Christians before them did?*
> 
> This is not a trick question!  I really have no idea why!


Both the The Council of Nicaea and the Reformers tossed out a good chunk of books and some of the Apostles writings.  We just have to scratch around and find them to be able to sort out the truth for ourselves spiritually.

Between the bloody massacres of both the Protestants and the Catholics, the only truly good thing I saw that came of all of it was the liberating of scripture from the Latin for personal interpretation.

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## TER

> That's the English translation of the LXX.
> Septuagint
> 
> As per post #10.


Aha!  That makes more sense!  

But that isn't a _good_ answer!  

You still get to keep the fireworks though!

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## TER

> okay, ready for another?  Here it goes...
> 
> *Which book of the Holy Scriptures is this prophecy about Christ written in?*
> 
> For even if they should rear their children, yet shall they be utterly bereaved: wherefore also there is woe to them, though My flesh is of them.
> 
> HINT:  In this prophecy in the Old Testament about Christ, we learn that the Messiah will have flesh as they do, that is, that God will be incarnate into human flesh.
> 
> Good luck!



A secret contestant has PM'd me the answer to this question and the answer is....


*Hosea 9:12*

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## torchbearer

It definitely wasn't Daniel. he spoke of the victorious messiah who will lead us to the kingdom of god on earth, not the one who gets killed in hopes of arriving again at another time to fulfil the prophecy.
l.

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## TER

With regards to the prophecy of Hosea as listed above which reveals that God would put on human flesh (become incarnate), it is found in the Septuigant version of Hosea.  The Masoretic text has altered the original text and reads:

*Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them! (Hosea 9:12)*

How interesting that the Jews would change this little verse when they re-wrote the Scriptures after Jesus rose from the dead!  Silly little men!  Trix are for kids!

The sad part of this story is that most modern day western Bibles use the Masoretic text as the basis for the Old Testament and have been deceived.  

Thankfully, the Septuagint still exists and can be found online!

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## Terry1

> A secret contestant has PM'd me the answer to this question and the answer is....
> 
> 
> *Hosea 9:12*


This one flew right by me, never saw it. LOL

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## TER

> It definitely wasn't Daniel. he spoke of the victorious messiah who will lead us to the kingdom of god on earth, not the one who gets killed in hopes of arriving again at another time to fulfil the prophecy.
> l.


I love me some Daniel!  He is one of the great prophets of the Church!  He missed the part about Christ dying in the flesh (or better said, it was not revealed to him), but I'm pretty impressed that he prophecized the day the Messiah would come down to the very year!  That's pretty impressive considering he did it 600+ years prior!

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## torchbearer

> I love me some Daniel!  He is one of the great prophets of the Church!  He missed the part about Christ dying in the flesh (or better said, it was not revealed to him), but I'm pretty impressed that he prophecized the day the Messiah would come down to the very year!  That's pretty impressive!


I like daniel.
I didn't care for the rewriting of Daniel though, it kind of made it look like someone was doing a little adjusting for the failure of the prophecy.
A revelation indeed.

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## TER

> I like daniel.
> I didn't care for the rewriting of Daniel though, it kind of made it look like someone was doing a little adjusting for the failure of the prophecy.
> A revelation indeed.


lol, thanks for your opinioin!  I try to weigh it seriously!

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## torchbearer

> lol, thanks for your opinioin!  I try to weigh it seriously!


um, its not an opinion. read both books side by side. adjusted end prophecy.

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## TER

> um, its not an opinion. read both books side by side. adjusted end prophecy.


Very well.  I shouldn't have sounded like a jerk in my response to you.  

I have read the claims you are making before and remain totally unconvinced.  I'm sorry that we do not agree on this.  No hard feelings though.

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## TER

Okay, this one may be tricky, but some might find it interesting....

*According to Church tradition, who was the young man in Mark 14:51 who ran naked from the guards who came to arrest Jesus after they grabbed him by the tunic?*

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## Dr.3D

Could this be the same person as in Mark 16:5?

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## Terry1

We know it wasn't Sandy Berger because he had on socks.  I have no clue without cheating on this one. Unless maybe it was Anthony Wiener.

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## Dr.3D

> We know it wasn't Sandy Berger because he had on socks.  I have no clue without cheating on this one.


What do you call cheating? 
Certainly searching for an answer isn't cheating.

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## Terry1

> What do you call cheating? 
> Certainly searching for an answer isn't cheating.


Oh, okay--I thought we already had to know it by heart.  I was doing the Googling thing.

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## heavenlyboy34

> Okay, this one may be tricky, but some might find it interesting....
> 
> *According to Church tradition, who was the young man in Mark 14:51 who ran naked from the guards who came to arrest Jesus after they grabbed him by the tunic?*


 1st guess- James.  2nd guess-John.

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## Dr.3D

Mark the Evangelist

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## TER

> Mark the Evangelist


*WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!* 

Dr. 3D wins again!!!

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## TER

Okay, this one is a little tricky like the last one but in the same vein (hint, hint ) 

*According to Church tradition, who was the disciple who walked with the other disciple Cleopas when they met Jesus in disguise on the way to Emmaus?*

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## Dr.3D

Mary, the wife of Cleopas.

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## eduardo89

We don't know the name of the other disciple, but many have said it to be James the Greater, I believe.

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## TER

> Mary, the wife of Cleopas.


That is a good answer! But not the right one!  
  Nevertheless, you get partial credit! 

Mary being the fellow traveler is a more common and much more modern guess of who it was.  During the last 2000 years, there have been several guesses on who that other disciple is, but according to the (Orthodox) Church (yeah, yeah, I know I am partial! And so is this thread! ), it is not Mary the wife of Cleopas but someone else.

Try another guess!

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## heavenlyboy34

> It definitely wasn't Daniel. he spoke of the victorious messiah who will lead us to the kingdom of god on earth, not the one who gets killed in hopes of arriving again at another time to fulfil the prophecy.
> l.


Dr Bart Ehrman also argues this.  However, he's not yet won a formal debate on this, AFAIK.

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## TER

> We don't know the name of the other disciple, but many have said it to be James the Greater, I believe.


Good guesses all around!  

You get partial credit as well!

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## Dr.3D

Probably Luke.

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## TER

> Probably Luke.


*WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!*


Also interesting tidbit, St. Luke was one of the seventy disciples (along with Cleopas) who went out to spread the Gospel during Christ's ministry (as He instructed them to do).  (Luke 10)

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## TER

Okay, this one is even trickier then the other two!  Whoever get this gets TWO gifs of fireworks!

*In the Gospel of Matthew (18:15), Christ takes a little child and presents him in the midst of His disciples and says:  'Verily I say unto you, except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Whosoever shall humble himself as this little child, the same is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. And who shall receive one such child in my name receiveth me.'

The question is:  according to Church tradition, who is this little child?*

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## Dr.3D

Ehhh... wouldn't that scripture be *Matthew 18:3-5*  ?

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## TER

> Ehhh... wouldn't that scripture be *Matthew 18:3-5*  ?


uhhm, uhh, yeah, of course you are right!  I was just making sure you guys were paying attention!  

*Matthew 18:2-5*

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## Dr.3D

St. Ignatius of Antioch

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## TER

St. Peter was older then Jesus.  Why did you guess him?

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## TER

While we wait for another guess to the previous question, here is another one!

*What were the four living creatures Ezekial saw in the his vision given to him by God!*

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## Dr.3D

> St. Peter was older then Jesus.  Why did you guess him?


Was just a guess.... but you see I revised it to St. Ignatius of Antioch.

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## TER

*WE HAVE ANOTHER WINNER!!!*




St. Ignatius was one of the Apostolic Fathers, disciple of St. John, and Bishop of Antioch!!!  One of the greatest Martyr Saints of the early Church!!

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## TER

C'mon you guys, is Dr. 3D the only one who is trying??  I just threw a softball question above!

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## Dr.3D

> While we wait for another guess to the previous question, here is another one!
> 
> *What were the four living creatures Ezekial saw in the his vision given to him by God!*


It's been a while since I did that study.

I remember the faces being those of the tribes of Israel.  Argh... I'll have to think about this for a bit.

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## TER

> I suspect they represent all of creation.


That is an excellent answer!  They most definitely are symbols to deeper truths, indeed, multidimensional truths in God's revelation to mankind.  Can you name what symbols they appeared to the Prophet Ezekial (that is, how they appeared to him)?

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## jmdrake

> It definitely wasn't Daniel. he spoke of the victorious messiah who will lead us to the kingdom of god on earth, not the one who gets killed in hopes of arriving again at another time to fulfil the prophecy.
> l.





> I like daniel.
> I didn't care for the rewriting of Daniel though, it kind of made it look like someone was doing a little adjusting for the failure of the prophecy.
> A revelation indeed.


Can you put a link to what you think is the original version of Daniel?  Because the version of Daniel I read makes it clear that the Messiah would be killed.

Daniel 9:26
_And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined._

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## jmdrake

> I love me some Daniel!  He is one of the great prophets of the Church!  He missed the part about Christ dying in the flesh (or better said, it was not revealed to him), but I'm pretty impressed that he prophecized the day the Messiah would come down to the very year!  That's pretty impressive considering he did it 600+ years prior!


Not only that, but Daniel predicted the year Jesus would be killed (cut off) and the year Stephen would be stoned.

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## jmdrake

> That is an excellent answer!  They most definitely are symbols to deeper truths, indeed, multidimensional truths in God's revelation to mankind.  Can you name what symbols they appeared to the Prophet Ezekial (that is, how they appeared to him)?

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## Dr.3D

> That is an excellent answer!  They most definitely are symbols to deeper truths, indeed, multidimensional truths in God's revelation to mankind.  Can you name what symbols they appeared to the Prophet Ezekial (that is, how they appeared to him)?


There were four faces that were the same as the standards of the four camps of Israel.

The face of an Ox - the camp of Ephram
The face of an Eagle - the camp of Dan
The face of a Lion - the camp of Judah
The face of a Man - the camp of Reuben

Where ever the four creatures go,  the throne goes.
It's as if the four creatures are a representation of the Holy Spirit.

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## TER

> There were four faces that were the same as the standards of the four camps of Israel.
> 
> The face of an Ox - the camp of Ephram
> The face of an Eagle - the camp of Dan
> The face of a Lion - the camp of Judah
> The face of a Man - the camp of Reuben
> 
> Where ever the four creatures go,  the throne goes.
> It's as if the four creatures are a representation of the Holy Spirit.


That is interesting!  I didn't know about the reference to the camps!  

I was rather trying to show the connection between the Evangelists and the Four Faces....  Namely, that the vision also prophecizes about the Four Gospels.  This has been according to the tradition of the Church, according to the Church Fathers.  Below is some artwork depicting it.





Below is a simple graph describing the significance and symbolism:



Dr. 3D, do you have a link about the different camps!  The beauty of such visions is that there can be different dimensional meanings and reasons, and I am quite intrigued about the suggestion you make with regards to the different camps!

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## TER

> Not only that, but Daniel predicted the year Jesus would be killed (cut off) and the year Stephen would be stoned.


Thanks jmdrake!  I will look at the video you also posted when I get out of work.

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## Dr.3D

> That is interesting!  I didn't know about the reference to the camps!  
> 
> I was rather trying to show the connection between the Evangelists and the Four Faces....  Namely, that the vision also prophecizes about the Four Gospels.  This has been according to the tradition of the Church, according to the Church Fathers.  Below is some artwork depicting it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Below is a simple graph describing the significance and symbolism:
> ...


That was something that just came to mind when I was trying to remember all of this after all these years.
Looking around on the internet, I have found a couple of places that mention them.

I found one here..... http://www.bible-history.com/taberna...Encampment.htm
Here is another....   http://www.spiritandtruth.org/teachi...#97519E#97519E
And another.... http://m.biblestudytools.com/comment...of-israel.html



> According to Jewish tradition it was believed that the banners of the tribes were as follows:
> 
> Judah - East (Lion of gold with a scarlet background).
> 
> Ephraim - West (Ox of black on gold background).
> 
> Reuben - South (Man on gold background).
> 
> Dan - North (Eagle of gold on a blue background).


It could be this is just "tradition" in the sense some folks would like it to be.  I'm not so sure it's correct.

Edit:
Here is one I have found that appears to be a Jewish site.
http://www.vbm-torah.org/parsha.64/34bemidbar.htm

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## Terry1

I have one here that some might know without searching.

Who was it that fell in the ditch when the disciples were singing and following Jesus?

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## TER

> I have one here that some might know without searching.
> 
> Who was it that fell in the ditch when the disciples were singing and following Jesus?


huh...  I haven't heard of this before.  Was it the devil?

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## TER

> That was something that just came to mind when I was trying to remember all of this after all these years.
> Looking around on the internet, I have found a couple of places that mention them.
> 
> I found one here..... http://www.bible-history.com/taberna...Encampment.htm
> Here is another....   http://www.spiritandtruth.org/teachi...#97519E#97519E
> And another.... http://m.biblestudytools.com/comment...of-israel.html
> 
> It could be this is just "tradition" in the sense some folks would like it to be.  I'm not so sure it's correct.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the links!

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## Dr.3D

The only mention of ditch I know of is about those who are blind leading the blind and both falling in it.

Here is one I find kind of interesting.  Symbolism is an interesting study and the scriptures are full of them.

We read about casting pearls before swine. A pearl of great value.  And some pseudepigrapha mentions more about pearls of wisdom.

Having this thought, what symbolism would you place on the twelve pearls mentioned in Revelation 21:21?

Of course, to me those being gates leads me to think about these in a particular way.

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## Terry1

> The only mention of ditch I know of is about those who are blind leading the blind and both falling in it.
> 
> Here is one I find kind of interesting.  Symbolism is an interesting study and the scriptures are full of them.
> 
> We read about casting pearls before swine. A pearl of great value.  And some pseudepigrapha mentions more about pearls of wisdom.
> 
> Having this thought, what symbolism would you place on the twelve pearls mentioned in Revelation 21:21?
> 
> Of course, to me those being gates leads me to think about these in a particular way.


Well I find myself in quite an embarrassing situation here because now that I've put the question forth, I can't find that scripture.   I'm still looking for it though.  In the mean time, I apologize and will get back with you on this one. haha.

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## Dr.3D

> Well I find myself in quite an embarrassing situation here because now that I've put the question forth, I can't find that scripture.   I'm still looking for it though.  In the mean time, I apologize and will get back with you on this one. haha.


Ahhh... don't be embarrassed, I do that to myself every now and then.   Of course at my age, I just attribute it to old timers disease.

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## TER

Okay, ladies and gentlemen, here is a new round of questions!!! 

*What is the shortest sentence in the Holy Scriptures?*

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## TER

It is a sentence consisting of two words...

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## TER

_Jesus_ is one of the words.

(c'mon guys and gals, I know someone has got to know this!    Or at least looked it up!)

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## eduardo89

> It is a sentence consisting of two words...


In English it's probably John 11:35.

Jesus wept.

(It's 3 words in Greek, though. "Edakrusen ho Iesous")

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## TER

> John 11:35.
> 
> Jesus wept.



*WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!*


Glory to God that Who loves and weeps for His beloved who are mourning, and for those beloved who have been separated from Him because of death!

All revealed in the shortest verse in the Holy Scriptures!

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## eduardo89

> *WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!*


It could also be 1 corinthians 11:22:




> *What!* Do you not have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you show contempt for the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What should I say to you? Should I commend you? In this matter I do not commend you!


The first sentence is "what!" However, I do not think that grammatically counts as a sentence.

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## TER

> It could also be 1 corinthians 11:22:
> 
> 
> 
> The first sentence is "what!" However, I do not think that grammatically counts as a sentence.


Hmm... this one will be sent to be reviewed by the judges.  Either way, since you came up with them both, you still win!!!

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## TER

Okay, next question!  This time, not everyone guess at once!  We don't want to crash the server!  


*According to Church tradition, who is the person whom Jesus said was "killed between the altar and the sanctuary"?*

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## eduardo89

> Okay, next question!  This time, not everyone guess at once!  We don't want to crash the server!  
> 
> 
> *According to Church tradition, who is the person whom Jesus said was "killed between the altar and the sanctuary"?*


It's not just Church tradition, it's in the Bible  

Hint, it's in Matthew.

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## TER

> It's not just Church tradition, it's in the Bible  
> 
> Hint, it's in Matthew.



The _name_ of the person is in the Bible.  _Which person with that name_ they are referring to comes from the oral tradition passed down by the Church!

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## eduardo89

> The Bible is the written tradition of the Church!
> 
> The _name_ of the person is in the Bible.  _Which person with that name_ they are referring to comes from the oral tradition passed down by the Church!


His death is recorded in 2 Chronicles 24:20-21.

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## TER

> His death is recorded in 2 Chronicles 24:20-21.


That is one theory, indeed a common theory!  But not the more ancient teaching!!  

The person described in the verse you listed had the same name and too died in a similar way, but that is not the person whom Jesus is referring to.  Someone else was killed in the same way, with the same name, and is the person referred to by Christ according to Church hagiography and Church history.

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## eduardo89

> That is one theory, indeed a common theory!  But not the more ancient teaching!!  
> 
> The person described in the verse you listed had the same name and too died in a similar way, but that is not the person whom Jesus is referring to.  Someone else was killed in the same way, with the same name, and is the person referred to by Christ according to Church hagiography and Church history.


Hmm...very interesting. 

Any hints?

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## TER

The person was the last prophet/priest of the Old Covenant to be killed in the temple.

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## Terry1

> Ahhh... don't be embarrassed, I do that to myself every now and then.   Of course at my age, I just attribute it to old timers disease.



Me too, but I'm 58.  Maybe it's starting early with me.  I think I'll just stick to answering the questions after that blunder. LOL

I know that scripture is in the bible somewhere, but I just can't remember the exact words that were used.  Bugs me that I can't find it, arrr.

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## eduardo89

> The person was the last prophet/priest of the Old Covenant to be killed in the temple.


Isn't Zechariah, the author of the Book of Zechariah and one of the Twelve Minor Prophets, the same Zechariah that was killed in 2 Chronicles 24:20-21?

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## TER

> Me too, but I'm 58.  Maybe it's starting early with me.  I think I'll just stick to answering the questions after that blunder. LOL
> 
> I know that scripture is in the bible somewhere, but I just can't remember the exact words that were used.  Bugs me that I can't find it, arrr.


Oh oh, that's happening to me now and I'm still a few years from 58!  lol!

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## TER

> Isn't Zechariah, the author of the Book of Zechariah and one of the Twelve Minor Prophets, the same Zechariah that was killed in 2 Chronicles 24:20-21?


He is, and is of the same lineage of Aaron as the Zechariah Christ is referring to.  To add to the wonder and providence of God, both of their fathers had the same name!  It was a prefiguring in the Old Testament of what would come to pass in the end of the Old Covenant and the beginning of the New Covenant, the martyrdom ending of the priesthood of the Old Covenant and the new priesthood inaugriated by the High Priest Jesus Christ, in the Order of Melchizedek.

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## TER

He was a relative of the Virgin Mary.

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## Terry1

> Oh oh, that's happening to me now and I'm still a few years from 58!  lol!


LOL, maybe I need some of that Ginko to help my memory or something.

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## TER

Here is a painter's rendition of him and a certain event in his life.

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## TER

The earliest manuscript available which references this oral tradition is found in the writings of Origen.

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## TER

okay, I see this thread is dwindling, maybe we can put some more life to it....

* Where in the Holy Scriptures are the Persons of the Holy Trinity first mentioned?* 
note: this one is _sort_ of a trick question.  Partial credit available!

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## heavenlyboy34

> okay, I see this thread is dwindling, maybe we can put some more life to it....
> 
> * Where in the Holy Scriptures are the Persons of the Holy Trinity first mentioned?* 
> note: this one is _sort_ of a trick question.  Partial credit available!


Isiah 25, IIRC.

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## TER

> Isiah 25, IIRC.


*Partial credit! * 


The answer I was specifically looking for is in the first sentences of the Bible:

 In the beginning *God (the Father)* created the heavens and the earth.  The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the *(Holy) Spirit* of God was hovering over the face of the waters.  Then God said *(Word of God)* , Let there be light; and there was light.

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## TER

okay, final question of the night....








































*
And it's a Daily Double!!
*












*What two episodes in the life of Moses is the power of the Cross prefigured?*

.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> okay, final question of the night....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Passover/Пасха/Pascha (Exodus 12), Manna from heaven (Exodus 16)  My best guesses...

----------


## TER

> Passover/Пасха/Pascha (Exodus 12), Manna from heaven (Exodus 16)  My best guesses...


These are extremely important and theologically deep scenes in the life of Moses which foreshadows Christ directly!  With regards to Pascha (Passover), we see how Israel passed over from impending and certain death at the hands of the enemy and instead by the grace of God and the work of Moses holding the wooden staff (hint hint) over the sea, the people were granted escape from death and freedom.  Likewise, Christ's work on the wooden cross from death into life has liberated us from death and granted us freedom.  The true and spiritual Passover which was prefigured in the scene in the Red Sea.

According to the Fathers, the crossing of the Red Sea is also a foreshadowing of the holy mystery of Baptism by which we are freed from the power of the devil and slavery to sin.  Through the waters, we find freedom!

As for the Manna from heaven, that too is a foreshadowing of the true food and drink for which is Christ Himself, the Body and Blood of Christ which the Lord gives to us in Holy Communion, filling us with nourishment and life and saving us from death!

But there are two episodes in the life of Moses which point even more _directly_ to the power of the Cross...

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> These are extremely important and theologically deep scenes in the life of Moses which foreshadows Christ directly!  With regards to Pascha (Passover), we see how Israel passed over from impending and certain death at the hands of the enemy and instead by the grace of God and the work of Moses holding the wooden staff (hint hint) over the sea, the people were granted escape from death and freedom.  Likewise, Christ's work on the wooden cross from death into life has liberated us from death and granted us freedom.  The true and spiritual Passover which was prefigured in the scene in the Red Sea.
> 
> According to the Fathers, the crossing of the Red Sea is also a foreshadowing of the holy mystery of Baptism by which we are freed from the power of the devil and slavery to sin.  Through the waters, we find freedom!
> 
> As for the Manna from heaven, that too is a foreshadowing of the true food and drink for which is Christ Himself, the Body and Blood of Christ which the Lord gives to us in Holy Communion, filling us with nourishment and life and saving us from death!
> 
> But there are two episodes in the life of Moses which point even more _directly_ to the power of the Cross...


I still haz teh stumped...but I'll keep thinkin'...

----------


## TER

> I still haz teh stumped...but I'll keep thinkin'...


 

HINT

Something to do with a snake...

----------


## Natural Citizen

What the hecks the question? I've lost track of the thread....

Oh, nevermind. I found it. And wouldn't have the slightest clue.

----------


## eduardo89

> HINT
> 
> Something to do with a snake...




His staff?

----------


## TER

*What two episodes in the life of Moses is the power of the Cross prefigured?*

----------


## TER

> His staff?


The fact that his staff was wooden does in a way prefigure the wooden cross, for by him holding it over the waters, the Red Sea split, by him putting in the dirty pond the water became clean to drink,  by him striking the rock, water came rushing out, by it turning into a snake it devoured the snakes of the sorcerers.  So the staff most definitely demonstrates some of the miraculous, healing, exorcizing power of the cross.  But there are two episodes in the life of Moses not involving his staff which directly prefigure the cross....

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## TER



----------


## TER

I like his drawing cuz it looks like Charlton Heston!

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## TER



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## TER



----------


## jmdrake

> These are extremely important and theologically deep scenes in the life of Moses which foreshadows Christ directly!  With regards to Pascha (Passover), we see how Israel passed over from impending and certain death at the hands of the enemy and instead by the grace of God and the work of Moses holding the wooden staff (hint hint) over the sea, the people were granted escape from death and freedom.  Likewise, Christ's work on the wooden cross from death into life has liberated us from death and granted us freedom.  The true and spiritual Passover which was prefigured in the scene in the Red Sea.
> 
> According to the Fathers, the crossing of the Red Sea is also a foreshadowing of the holy mystery of Baptism by which we are freed from the power of the devil and slavery to sin.  Through the waters, we find freedom!
> 
> As for the Manna from heaven, that too is a foreshadowing of the true food and drink for which is Christ Himself, the Body and Blood of Christ which the Lord gives to us in Holy Communion, filling us with nourishment and life and saving us from death!
> 
> But there are two episodes in the life of Moses which point even more _directly_ to the power of the Cross...


That's all good.  I need to keep reading this thread.  It's a lot more fun then arguing the same point over and over again.  Anyway, you are right about all you've listed including the staff.  But there's also the part of Moses striking the rock and water coming out of it.  When Jesus was stabbed, blood and water flowed from His side.

_1 Corinthians 10:4 KJV
King James Version
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them : and that Rock was Christ._

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## jmdrake

I know that one!  I wish I had kept up with the game.  The cool thing is that Genesis also says "Let *us* make man in *our* image."  Who is the "us" if not the trinity?  I've seen people try to argue against that, but I haven't seen a convincing argument.




> *Partial credit! * 
> 
> 
> The answer I was specifically looking for is in the first sentences of the Bible:
> 
>  In the beginning *God (the Father)* created the heavens and the earth.  The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the *(Holy) Spirit* of God was hovering over the face of the waters.  Then God said *(Word of God)* , “Let there be light”; and there was light.

----------


## TER

> That's all good.  I need to keep reading this thread.  It's a lot more fun then arguing the same point over and over again.  Anyway, you are right about all you've listed including the staff.  But there's also the part of Moses striking the rock and water coming out of it.  When Jesus was stabbed, blood and water flowed from His side.
> 
> _1 Corinthians 10:4 KJV
> King James Version
> And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them : and that Rock was Christ._


Good point!  I hadn't thought of that!  The Rock of Christ from Whom flows Living Water!  Thanks jmdrake!!

----------


## Terry1

By the serpent and the disobedience of Adam and Eve, sin was brought into the world.  The serpent represents sin and how Jesus had to become that very sin/serpent on the cross in order to atone for the sins of mankind.  It represents Christ's/Yeshua's triumph and victory in defeating sin and death on the cross.

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## jmdrake

> By the serpent and the disobedience of Adam and Eve, sin was brought into the world.  The serpent represents sin and how Jesus had to become that very sin/serpent on the cross in order to atone for the sins of mankind.  It represents Christ's/Yeshua's triumph and victory in defeating sin and death on the cross.


Great point!  I hadn't thought of it that way.

----------


## TER

> By the serpent and the disobedience of Adam and Eve, sin was brought into the world.  The serpent represents sin and how Jesus had to become that very sin/serpent on the cross in order to atone for the sins of mankind.  It represents Christ's/Yeshua's triumph and victory in defeating sin and death on the cross.


Exactly!

2 Cor 5:21:
*
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.*

----------


## jmdrake

> 


You know, when I was a kid I thought the Caduceus was for Moses and the bronze serpent.  It wasn't until much later that I learned about the Greek god affiliation.  I wonder how this striking similarity happened?  Religious / cultural cross pollination?  God seeking to reveal Himself to cultures that weren't ready for a full revelation?  It's a subject that deserves more study on my part.

----------


## TER

> The cool thing is that Genesis also says "Let *us* make man in *our* image."  Who is the "us" if not the trinity?  I've seen people try to argue against that, but I haven't seen a convincing argument.


Very true!  The trinitarian nature of God is evident in the Old Testaments but was only given in hints and shadows.  Now looking back and knowing what we know, it is much easier to connect the dots.  

The first explicitly demonstrated image of the Trinity is the Theophany of God (also known as the Epiphany of God) which occurred at the Baptism of Christ when the Father, Son and Holy Spirit was finally revealed in clear and no uncertain terms for all the world.  Until then, men were still in the dark even as the hints and shadows of the truth were there.

----------


## TER

> You know, when I was a kid I thought the Caduceus was for Moses and the bronze serpent.  It wasn't until much later that I learned about the Greek god affiliation.  I wonder how this striking similarity happened?  Religious / cultural cross pollination? * God seeking to reveal Himself to cultures that weren't ready for a full revelation?*  It's a subject that deserves more study on my part.


I think the bolded is the most important reason.  Before Christ came to fully reveal Himself, the Logos of God was known in parts and in shadows, 'through a glass, darkly', and the 'coincidences' of the primitive knowledge of God which correlate with the truths revealed and fulfilled with Christ demonstrate this to be so.

----------


## jmdrake

> Very true!  The trinitarian nature of God is evident in the Old Testaments but was only given in hints and shadows.  Now looking back and knowing what we know, it is much easier to connect the dots.  
> 
> The first explicitly demonstrated image of the Trinity is the Theophany of God (also known as the Epiphany of God) which occurred at the Baptism of Christ when the Father, Son and Holy Spirit was finally revealed in clear and no uncertain terms for all the world.  Until then, men were still in the dark even as the hints and shadows of the truth were there.


Yep.  My favorite is Nebuchadnezzar declaring "Did we not through three men in the fire?  And now there are four.  And one looks like the Son of God."

How did a pagan king even know what the Son of God was supposed to look like?

----------


## Terry1

> Great point!  I hadn't thought of it that way.

----------


## Terry1

> Exactly!
> 
> 2 Cor 5:21:
> *
> For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.*


It was a great question TER.

----------


## TER

But how about the second answer to the question!?

*What other event in the life of Moses is the power of the Cross revealed?*

----------


## jmdrake

> But how about the second answer to the question!?
> 
> *What other event in the life of Moses is the power of the Cross revealed?*


When Moses interceded on behalf of the children of Israel when God threatened to wipe them out?  Note that Moses was willing to offer his life in exchange for the Hebrews.

_"30 The next day Moses said to the people, 'You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.'

31 So Moses went back to the LORD and said, 'Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 32 But now, please forgive their sin -- but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.'

33 The LORD replied to Moses, 'Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. 34 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.'

35 And the LORD struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made." (Exodus 32:7-35)_

----------


## TER

> When Moses interceded on behalf of the children of Israel when God threatened to wipe them out?  Note that Moses was willing to offer his life in exchange for the Hebrews.
> 
> _"30 The next day Moses said to the people, 'You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.'
> 
> 31 So Moses went back to the LORD and said, 'Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 32 But now, please forgive their sin -- but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.'
> 
> 33 The LORD replied to Moses, 'Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. 34 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.'
> 
> 35 And the LORD struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made." (Exodus 32:7-35)_



oohhh, I forgot about that one!  Great work!  It wasn't the thing I had in mind but you get partial credit!



there is another episode in Moses' life which even _more_ clearly prefigures the power of the Cross!

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> These are extremely important and theologically deep scenes in the life of Moses which foreshadows Christ directly!  With regards to Pascha (Passover), we see how Israel passed over from impending and certain death at the hands of the enemy and instead by the grace of God and the work of Moses holding the wooden staff (hint hint) over the sea, the people were granted escape from death and freedom.  Likewise, Christ's work on the wooden cross from death into life has liberated us from death and granted us freedom.  The true and spiritual Passover which was prefigured in the scene in the Red Sea.
> 
> According to the Fathers, the crossing of the Red Sea is also a foreshadowing of the holy mystery of Baptism by which we are freed from the power of the devil and slavery to sin.  Through the waters, we find freedom!
> 
> As for the Manna from heaven, that too is a foreshadowing of the true food and drink for which is Christ Himself, the Body and Blood of Christ which the Lord gives to us in Holy Communion, filling us with nourishment and life and saving us from death!
> 
> But there are two episodes in the life of Moses which point even more _directly_ to the power of the Cross...


Les bumpee, as I can't figure this one out and it's driving me crazy. :/

----------


## jmdrake

> oohhh, I forgot about that one!  Great work!  It wasn't the thing I had in mind but you get partial credit!
> 
> 
> 
> there is another episode in Moses' life which even _more_ clearly prefigures the power of the Cross!


Moses holding up his hands to intercede in prayer, and being unable to keep it up Aaron and Hur holding Moses hands up?  That prefigures Jesus' hands being held up on the cross?  If that's not it you've got me stumped.

----------


## TER

> Moses holding up his hands to intercede in prayer, and being unable to keep it up Aaron and Hur holding Moses hands up?  That prefigures Jesus' hands being held up on the cross?  If that's not it you've got me stumped.


*WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!!!!*








In this amazing scene, as Joshua (whose name is the same as JESUS) is leading the army and fighting the enemy, as long as Moses has his arm extended, Joshua (Jesus) begins to win in the battle.  As soon as his arms start falling to his sides, the enemy starts to overcome Joshua and his army.

Moses, being a mere human, cannot keeps his arm extended anymore, and so Aaron and Hur assist him.

In this way, we see that in the image of the crucified, Jesus (Joshua) overcomes the enemy.  

What is even more interesting is that in Greek, Aaron's name begings with alpha and Hur's name begins with omega, and here we see:

A + Ω
which is the traditional way the cross is represented in Christian iconography..

[/url]

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## heavenlyboy34

Mind.  Blown.

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## TER

> Mind.  Blown.


  yeah, pretty cool. This is one of the scenes of the Old Testament which I absolutely love because of how theologically deep it is in pointing to how the crucified Christ saves us.

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## Sola_Fide

What was the nature of the heresy that Paul condemned in Galatia?

----------


## Dr.3D

> What was the nature of the heresy that Paul condemned in Galatia?


He was encouraging them to turn away from their idols.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> What was the nature of the heresy that Paul condemned in Galatia?


The Judaizers were adding a work as a precondition for attaining God's grace.

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## jmdrake

> What was the nature of the heresy that Paul condemned in Galatia?


What is the heresy Paul condemned in 1 Corinthians 3?

----------


## TER

> What is the heresy Paul condemned in 1 Corinthians 3?


I give up!  What is it?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> The Judaizers were adding a work as a precondition for attaining God's grace.


Very close! 

Th Judiazing heresy was that one was justified by faith in Christ, but one maintained their justification by their works. The atonement got you part of the way there, but your faithfulness had to be added to Christ's law keeping.   And of course this prompted Paul to say:




> *Galatians 3:3 NASB
> 
> Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?*


And then he describes in chapter 3 that using your works to justify yourself causes you to go down the path of the law.  And if you want to go down that path, you will fail, because the law is a curse for everyone that does not continue to do EVERYTHING written in it.  The law requires perfection.

It is very interesting to see how this heresy has spread throughout churches up to this very day.  Roman Catholicism, Arminianism, neo-legalism are all variations of this heresy.  Saved by grace but kept by lawkeeping.

----------


## Christian Liberty

Hey, just out of curiosity, how do you deal with the sheep and the goats passage?

Not saying I disagree with anything you said, just curious.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Very close! 
> 
> Th Judiazing heresy was that one was justified by faith in Christ, but one maintained their justification by their works. The atonement got you part of the way there, but your faithfulness had to be added to Christ's law keeping.   And of course this prompted Paul to say:
> 
> 
> 
> And then he describes in chapter 3 that using your works to justify yourself causes you to go down the path of the law.  And if you want to go down that path, you will fail, because the law is a curse for everyone that does not continue to do EVERYTHING written in it.  The law requires perfection.
> 
> It is very interesting to see how this heresy has spread throughout churches up to this very day.  *Roman Catholicism*, Arminianism, neo-legalism are all variations of this heresy.  Saved by grace but kept by lawkeeping.


I can see where you get this if you just examine the Scholastics.  However, I'm not sure this can be said of Romanism generally.  I'm not that well versed in RCC doctrine/dogma.  I'd appreciate some evidence, thnx.

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## TER

Okay folks, now for the next question in the BIBLE CHALLENGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*What scene in the Old Testament directly prefigures the Holy Eucharist which Christ would institute 2000 years later?*

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## TER

It occurs in the life of Abraham...

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## eduardo89

> Okay folks, now for the next question in the BIBLE CHALLENGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> *What scene in the Old Testament directly prefigures the Holy Eucharist which Christ would institute 2000 years later?*


There are many. For example the Bread of the Presence in Leviticus 24:7 or the bread and water in 1 Kings 19 which sustains Elijah for 40 days.

However, the one you might be asking for could be Isaiah’s coal in Isaiah 7. 




> And one of the seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar. And he touched my mouth, and said: Behold this hath touched thy lips, and thy iniquities shall be taken away, and thy sin shall be cleansed


The priest in your liturgy (and that of Byzantine Catholics) says “Lo, this has touched your lips and has taken away your iniquity” when you receive the Eucharist, if I'm not mistaken.

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## heavenlyboy34

> Okay folks, now for the next question in the BIBLE CHALLENGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> *What scene in the Old Testament directly prefigures the Holy Eucharist which Christ would institute 2000 years later?*


Пасха(Pascha to the Greek and Antiochian Churches).  Exodus 12.

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## eduardo89

> It occurs in the life of Abraham...


Genesis 22:8?

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## TER

Excellent answers, each worthy of an entire discussion!

For the specific answer I am looking for, here are some more hints...

Occurs in Abrahams lifetime...
involves the first priest mentioned in the whole of Scriptures...

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## eduardo89

> Excellent answers, each worthy of an entire discussion!
> 
> For the specific answer I am looking for, here are some more hints...
> 
> Occurs in Abrahams lifetime...
> involves the first priest mentioned in the whole of Scriptures...


The Meal of Melchizedek.

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## TER

> The Meal of Melchizedek.


*WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!!*


In this amazing scene in the life of Abraham, we see the mysterious High Priest and King of Jerusalem Melchezedek (of whom we are given no lineage from and who is the first priest to be mentioned in the Holy Scriptures, thus not in the line of Aaron, but in the line of ???  GOD).

Here, Melchezedek the King of Peace (Jerusalem comes from salem which means peace) offers bread and wine to Abraham.

 


No figure points out the continuity between the Old and New Testament in a manner as explicit and at the same time enigmatic, as that of Melchisedek, in which St. John Chrysostom sees "the perfect image of the Saviour".  

In chapter XIV of the Book of Genesis verses 18-20, Moses writes that: "And Melchisedek, King of Salem, brought forth loaves and wine, and he was the priest of the most high God.  And he blessed Abram, and said: Blessed be Abram of the most high God, Who made heaven and earth, and blessed be the most high God Who delivered thine enemies into thy power.  And Abram gave him the tithe of all".  (For the Fathers and the commentators, Salem here signifies Jerusalem. "Melch" is the Hebrew word for "king", "sedek" signifies "justice" and "shalim" (salem) is derived from roots which mean "peace".)

Melchisedek is the first priest mentioned in the Scriptures, even preceding the institution of the levitical priesthood; but, from no other priest did he receive the priesthood and to no other priest did he transmit his dignity.  Thus did he prefigure the only priesthood of the Lord according to the Prophet David: "The Lord said unto my Lord: Sit Thou at my right hand, until I make Thine enemies the footstool of Thy feet . . . The Lord hath sworn and will not repent: Thou art a priest forever, after the order of Melchisedek" (Psalms 110:1&4).

In this first verse, the Fathers have seen the witness of the co-substantiality of the Father and of the Son (Cf, in particular St.  John Chrysostom, Homily on Psalm 110, in The Complete Works, op.  cit., t.IX.  Cf likewise, Mat. 12:42-45, where Jesus Christ sites this psalm Himself to show that He is the true Son of God.), and the confirmation that the high priest is indeed the Lord Jesus Christ, Whose coming is prophesied.  As the Apostle Paul explains it in the Epistle to the Hebrews: "And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him; called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedek" (5:9- 10).

This mysterious passage from Genesis and the prophetic allusion from Psalm 110 find their meaning only in the Epistle to the Hebrews because on Christ brings light to the faces of the Old Testament who foretell of Him in signs and in a veiled manner. (Cf. 2Cor. 3:11 to the end.)

Meanwhile, who is this Melchisedek?  Why does he offer bread and wine and not an animal sacrifice as God prescribed it to the Levites?  What relationship is there between the eternal high priesthood  of Melchisedek and the priesthood according to the order of Aaron?  How can the Apostle Paul say that he is "Without father, without mother, without descent . . . but made like unto the Son of God, he remains high priest forever" (Heb. 7:2-3)?  What is the meaning of the benediction given to Abraham?  Should not the King of Salem himself have received the blessing from Abraham, the Father of Israel and of a multitude of nations, with whom God made His Covenant?  "Of whom (Melchisedek)", the Apostle Paul forewarns us, "we have many things to say and hard to be uttered . . . " (Heb.5:10-11).

For the Apostle and for the Fathers, such is the prophetic sense of the distinction that is found in the Old Testament between `the order of Aaron' and `the order of Melchisedek'.  "You are High Priest forever according to the order of Melchisedek."  In effect, the Apostle Paul explains, "on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness, for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God" (Heb. 7:17-19).

Commenting on this same verse in his "Homelie on Melchisedek", St. John Chrysostom says:

_"Melchisedek was righteous and the faithful image of Christ.  Moved by a prophetic spirit, he discerned the oblation which must one day be offered for the Gentiles, and, in the example of the future Christ, he offered bread and wine as sacrifice to God.  But, the Judaic synagogue, which honored God according to the order of Aaron, offered Him a sacrifice, not of bread and wine, but of bulls and lambs and glorified the Lord by bloody sacrifices.  That is why God, addressing Himself to the One Who was to be born of the Virgin Mary, Jesus Christ, His Son, says to Him, `You are Priest forever according to the order of Melchisedek' and not according to the order of Aaron, who honors his God while offering Him bulls and heifers"(Op.  cit., p.482-483)._
St. Ambrose draws the conclusion that the Christian worship is more ancient than that of the Law since it is Melchisedek, the image of Christ, who brings the bread and the wine, not Abraham (Cf "Dictionnaire de Spiritualite", col. 971.  St. Ambrose, "De Sacramentis", IV, 8, 10-11; "De Mysteriis", 8, 44-45).

That the figure of Melchisedek is fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Fathers all hold to the fact that He alone is truly `without genealogy': 

_"The Son of God," says St. John Chrysostom, "is without father and without mother; without father as to His earthly genesis; without mother as to His heavenly genesis" ("Homelie sur Melchisedek", op. cit., p.479.  Cf. also "Expication des Psaumes", Ps. CIX, ibid., p.332)._ 

If then the Scriptures say of Melchisedek that he was `without genealogy', it is not at all that in reality he did not have parents, "because", says St. John Chrysostom:

_ "we maintain that Melchisedek is not only a man like us . . .  but as Melchisedek was the type of Christ, Whose image he bore, in the same way was Jonas.  The Scriptures had not spoken of his father, so that he might offer us a perfect image of the Saviour Who alone, in truth, has neither father nor genealogy" (Ibid., p.482).  Likewise, in his homily on the Psalm of David, he says: "That which Melchisedek was in figure, Jesus Christ was in reality, and the name of Melchisedek was like the names of Jesus and of Christ, which long in advance announced and prefigured the mission of the Saviour.  When we read that Melchisedek had neither beginning nor end of his life, it is not that in reality he had had neither beginning nor end, but because no trace is found of his genealogy.  Jesus, on the contrary, had in truth no beginning of His days, nor end of His life.  His existence had no time, no beginning, no end.  One was the figure, the other the truth" (Id.,"Oeuvres Completes", t.IX, p.332)._

In short, it is universal salvation in and by Christ which, according to the Apostle Paul and the Fathers, is prophetically announced by this passage of Genesis.  Abraham gave one-tenth of all his wealth to the priest and King of Salem; but with him are all the Nations and Levi, of whom Abraham is the father, who will give tithe to the One of Whom Melchisedek is the image, our Lord Jesus Christ.  (Levi, says the Apostle Paul `was still in the loins of his father'- Heb.  7:10).

In his "Homily on Melchisedek", Mar Jacob, Bishop of Sarugh, explains that if the King of Salem were living in the times of the Old Testament, he would see in the illumination of his heart, the mysteries of the New ("The True Vine", no.2, 1989, p.30-55 or cf. "La Lumiere du Thabor", no.24, 4th quarter 1989, p. 1-4). Melchisedek brought the bread and wine to Abraham, thus proclaiming in advance that all the Nations would be called to participate in the Body and Blood of the eternal Sacrificer, the Lord Jesus, of whom he is the image.  The same interpretation is developed by St. Justin: ". . . just as Melchisedek, as Moses writes it, was priest of the Most High, just as he was priest of the uncircumscribed, just as he blessed Abraham to circumscribe those who bring the tithe; likewise God declares that He Who is called by the Holy Spirit `Priest Eternal' and also `Lord' would be the Priest of the uncircumscribed and that the circumscribed would turn to Him, that is to say that they would believe in Him and would ask His blessing; them also He will receive and bless" (ibid. 31 or cf. 19, p.154).

----------


## TER

Okay, now it's time for the next question!  (drumroll please...)

*The following person from the Old Testament prefigures Jesus Christ in several ways, including:
Mother concieved him after a visit by an angel.He was betrayed for silver coins.He was captured, blindfolded, and mocked.He extended his arms in order to destroy the enemies of his people.He was strong though made weak in order to free his people

Who is this man?*

----------


## TER

I know one of our Christian brothers or sisters here know the answer!

here is a hint:

He was a Judge of Israel

----------


## jmdrake

> I give up!  What is it?


Paul warns against people lifting up one apostle over another.  Paul speaks out against envy, division and strife.  Paul would be aghast and the invention of a "Pauline gospel".

_3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ._

----------


## jmdrake

> Okay folks, now for the next question in the BIBLE CHALLENGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> *What scene in the Old Testament directly prefigures the Holy Eucharist which Christ would institute 2000 years later?*


Melchizadek, King of Salem.  He brought bread and wine to Abraham and Abraham paid him a tithe of the spoils from saving Sodom.  And King of Salem = King of Peace.  One of Jesus' names is "Prince of Peace".  And if there was any doubt, Hebrews compares Jesus to Melchizadek.

Edit: I see it was already answered.  That's what I get for taking a day off.

----------


## jmdrake

> Okay, now it's time for the next question!  (drumroll please...)
> 
> *The following person from the Old Testament prefigures Jesus Christ in several ways, including:
> Mother concieved him after a visit by an angel.He was betrayed for silver coins.He was captured, blindfolded, and mocked.He extended his arms in order to destroy the enemies of his people.He was strong though made weak in order to free his people
> 
> Who is this man?*


Sampson.  Mother was visited by an angel.  Delilah accepted silver for his betrayal.  He was captured, his eyes poked out and mocked.  When he stretched out his arms he destroyed the pillars holding up the temple of Ba'al.  He was strong before his hair was cut, but after he was weak that's when he was taken to the heart of enemy territory where he could destroy their center of worship.

----------


## TER

> Sampson.  Mother was visited by an angel.  Delilah accepted silver for his betrayal.  He was captured, his eyes poked out and mocked.  When he stretched out his arms he destroyed the pillars holding up the temple of Ba'al.  He was strong before his hair was cut, but after he was weak that's when he was taken to the heart of enemy territory where he could destroy their center of worship.


*WE HAVE A WINNER!!!*





He gave his life as a sacrifice for his people in a foreshadowing of Christ!

----------


## TER

Okay Ladies and Gentlemen, time for more Bible Challenge!!!!

Many times we see the apple tree used artistically to represent the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in paintings and images, but that is a modern innovation which became popular during the Renaissance.

*According to the tradition of the Christian Church as well as the oral and written tradition of the Jews until this day, what type of fruit tree and what was the fruit which Adam and Eve ate from in the Garden of Eden?*

----------


## jmdrake

> Okay Ladies and Gentlemen, time for more Bible Challenge!!!!
> 
> Many times we see the apple tree used artistically to represent the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in paintings and images, but that is a modern innovation which became popular during the Renaissance.
> 
> *According to the tradition of the Christian Church as well as the oral and written tradition of the Jews until this day, what type of fruit tree and what was the fruit which Adam and Eve ate from in the Garden of Eden?*


Disobedience?  I've usually seen the fruit portrayed as an apple.  And I've heard some claim it was metaphor for sex.  (I don't believe that).  I have no idea really.

----------


## TER

> Disobedience?  I've usually seen the fruit portrayed as an apple.  And I've heard some claim it was metaphor for sex.  (I don't believe that).  I have no idea really.


Thanks for the reply jmdrake! 

The disobedience is that they ate of the tree, so symbolically, you are correct that the fruit of the act is indeed disobedience.  The metaphor for sex (which I too have heard) is a popular mention but completely inaccurate and is not at all attested to by the Fathers of the Church.  This must be a more modern interpretation.

That all being said, there is actually a _specific_ fruit and _specific_ type of fruit tree which is believed and passed down by the Church and by Judaism to be the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Here is a *hint*:

This type of tree is mentioned by Jesus a few times.

----------


## TER

This tree is used many times and in many important scenes in the Old Testament writings. 

It's fruit was considered the most important and delicious amongst the ancient Jews (as well as the ancient Greeks).

----------


## TER

This same fruit tree is historically important to Buddhism as well, for it was underneath one when Buddha sat and became enlightened and started the Buddhist tradition.

----------


## TER

The first disciple to acknowledge Jesus as 'God' was called by Him as he sat under such a tree.

----------


## jmdrake

You gave too many hints and made it easy.    It's obviously a fig tree.  I believe Nathan was the disciple Jesus saw under the fig tree.  Or was it Bartholomew?  (I could cheat and look it up, but what would be the fun in that?)  I do know Jesus said he was an Israelite in whom there was no guile.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

Either fig or cherry.

----------


## TER

> You gave too many hints and made it easy.    It's obviously a fig tree.  I believe Nathan was the disciple Jesus saw under the fig tree.  Or was it Bartholomew?  (I could cheat and look it up, but what would be the fun in that?)  I do know Jesus said he was an Israelite in whom there was no guile.


*WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!!*


According to the Jewish and Christian traditions, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was a fig tree and it was a fig which Eve took a bite of.  After eating the fruit of the tree and being embarrassed by their nakedness, they took a leaf from the tree in order to hide themselves.

----------


## jmdrake

> *WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!!*
> 
> 
> According to the Jewish and Christian traditions, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was a fig tree and it was a fig which Eve took a bite of.  After eating the fruit of the tree and being embarrassed by their nakedness, they took a leaf from the tree in order to hide themselves.


Well that makes sense as Genesis does mention the fig leaves.

----------


## TER

> Well that makes sense as Genesis does mention the fig leaves.


Some more trivia about fig trees in the Holy Scriptures:
The fig tree is the first tree to be mentioned in the Holy Scriptures.During Solomon's reign, Judah and Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, lived in safety, each man "under his own vine and fig tree" (1 Kings 4:25)Proverbs 27:18 likens tending a fig tree to looking after one's master.There was a fig tree in the garden of the Song of Solomon and in the year of love the tree formed its fruit early (Song 2:13)Jesus told the parable of the budding fig tree (Matt 24:3236, Mark 13:2832, Luke 21:2933)Jesus told the parable of the barren fig tree (Luke 13:69)Jesus cursed the barren fig tree (Mark 11:1220)

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## TER

I hope you found the last bit of trivia to be interesting.  I actually just learned about it three weeks ago!  One can go a hundred lifetimes and still not know all of of the richness and wonders of the Christian faith.  For this we give glory, thanksgiving, and worship to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit!  For many are being saved on account of your great love and mercy.  Glory to You, our God!!!

Here is another question for my friends:


*What earliest mention does God make regarding His promise that the Son of Man would destroy Satan?*




.

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## jmdrake

> I hope you found the last bit of trivia to be interesting.  I actually just learned about it three weeks ago!  One can go a hundred lifetimes and still not know all of of the richness and wonders of the Christian faith.  For this we give glory, thanksgiving, and worship to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit!  For many are being saved on account of your great love and mercy.  Glory to You, our God!!!
> 
> Here is another question for my friends:
> 
> 
> *What earliest mention does God make regarding His promise that the Son of Man would destroy Satan?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In His promise to Eve that her seed would bruise the serpents head.

----------


## jmdrake

Okay.  Here's one from me.  What patriarch had a dream with a distinct symbol that prefigured Jesus?

----------


## TER

> In His promise to Eve that her seed would bruise the serpents head.


*
WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!*


*GENESIS 3:13*

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

So the Lord God said to the serpent:

“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.

 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
*He shall bruise your head*,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Okay.  Here's one from me.  What patriarch had a dream with a distinct symbol that prefigured Jesus?


Saul, IIRC.

----------


## TER

> Okay.  Here's one from me.  What patriarch had a dream with a distinct symbol that prefigured Jesus?


Jacob?

----------


## TER

> Okay.  Here's one from me.  What patriarch had a dream with a distinct symbol that prefigured Jesus?


Give us a hint!

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Give us a hint!


+1!!

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## jmdrake

> Jacob?


WE HAVE A WINNER



John 1:51 _He then added, "Very truly I tell you, you will see 'heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on' the Son of Man."

Genesis 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
_

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## heavenlyboy34

Almost a month with no new challenges?  I am disappoint.

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## TER

Okay folks, by popular demand (and by popular, I mean HB34!), this is the next installment of BIBLE CHALLENGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

*What book of the Old Testament (Septuigant) do we find the following verses, some of which show remarkable parallels with Christ's Sermon on the Mount?*
My son, if I die, bury me, but do not disregard your mother. Honor her all the days of your life. Do what is pleasing to her, but do not grieve her. Remember, my son, that she experienced many dangers for you while you were in the womb Remember the Lord our God all your days, and do not desire to sin or to disobey His commandments If you walk in the truth, you will be successful in your works. Do almsgiving from your possessions to all who do righteousness Do not turn your face away from any poor man, so the face of God will not be turned away from you Do not be afraid to give according to the little you have. You are storing up a good treasure for yourself in the day of necessity. For almsgiving delivers us from death and prevents us from entering into the darkness Do not keep overnight the wages of any man who works for you, but pay him immediately Be disciplined in your conduct. What you yourself hate, do not do to anyone From your bread, give to him who is hungry, and from your clothing, give to the naked Seek counsel from every sensible man, and do not treat any useful advice with contempt. At every opportunity bless the Lord God, but more than this ask that your ways may become straight, and that all Your paths and purposes may prosper Let none of my commandments be removed from your heart.What you yourself hate, do not do to anyone.

----------


## TER

I just noticed this question from an earlier page was never answered.  I'll put it out there one more time..

*According to Church tradition, who is the person whom Jesus said was "killed between the altar and the sanctuary"?* 

The person was the last Priest of the Old Covenant to be killed in the temple.He was a relative of the Virgin Mary.An early manuscript which references this oral tradition is found in the writings of Origen.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Okay folks, by popular demand (and by popular, I mean HB34!), this is the next installment of BIBLE CHALLENGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
> 
> *What book of the Old Testament (Septuigant) do we find the following verses, some of which show remarkable parallels with Christ's Sermon on the Mount?*
> 
> My son, if I die, bury me, but do not disregard your mother. Honor her all the days of your life. Do what is pleasing to her, but do not grieve her. Remember, my son, that she experienced many dangers for you while you were in the womb …Remember the Lord our God all your days, and do not desire to sin or to disobey His commandments …If you walk in the truth, you will be successful in your works. Do almsgiving from your possessions to all who do righteousness …Do not turn your face away from any poor man, so the face of God will not be turned away from you …Do not be afraid to give according to the little you have. You are storing up a good treasure for yourself in the day of necessity. For almsgiving delivers us from death and prevents us from entering into the darkness …Do not keep overnight the wages of any man who works for you, but pay him immediately …Be disciplined in your conduct. What you yourself hate, do not do to anyone …From your bread, give to him who is hungry, and from your clothing, give to the naked …Seek counsel from every sensible man, and do not treat any useful advice with contempt. At every opportunity bless the Lord God, but more than this ask that your ways may become straight, and that all Your paths and purposes may prosper …Let none of my commandments be removed from your heart.What you yourself hate, do not do to anyone.


Tobit, I reckon.

----------


## TER

> Tobit, I reckon.


*WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!!!!*


The Book of Tobit, (one of my personal favorite books of the Bible).  I urge all those who have yet to read this book to read it.  It is a wonderful (and short) book.

From this link:

As Christians, the value of this story (especially for our children) is clear:

The way we treat other people matters. In fact, even the way we treat reposed friends and family matters.We can overcome both death and the devil with faithfulness and the Lord’s help—but only if we cooperate and listen to his instructions.God has provided messengers—angels—to aid in our healing and transformation into the image and likeness of him.Our God is the God of the living.The essence of Christian asceticism and spirituality is trinitarian: prayer, fasting, and almsgiving.
Selflessness—the heart of Tobit’s message—is at the heart of Christian spirituality. In caring for others, we find true life. And that is the enduring message of Tobit.  

Enough to start a new thread...

----------


## heavenlyboy34

Yes, I started reading Tobit a while back, but had to abandon it temporarily for other readings. :/  Good literature.  Planning to get back to it ASAP.

----------


## TER

> I just noticed this question from an earlier page was never answered.  I'll put it out there one more time..
> 
> *According to Church tradition, who is the person whom Jesus said was "killed between the altar and the sanctuary"?* 
> 
> The person was the last Priest of the Old Covenant to be killed in the temple.He was a relative of the Virgin Mary.An early manuscript which references this oral tradition is found in the writings of Origen.


The answer to this question is:  

*Zecharias, the father of St. John the Baptist*

The Righteous Zachariah (or Zacharias), the father of the holy Prophet St John the Baptist is commemorated by the Church on September 5 along with his wife Elizabeth. He is also remembered, in the Greek tradition, on June 24 with the Nativity of St John the Baptist. 

The holy Prophet Zachariah, a priest in the Jerusalem Temple, was the son of Barach, from the lineage of Aaron. St Zachariah was told by an angel that his elderly wife would bear him a son named John, but he doubted this prediction. For his weakness of faith, Zachariah become mute. When Elizabeth gave birth to a son, motivated of the Holy Spirit, she announced that his name was John. When Zachariah confirmed the name in writing, speech returned to him, and inspired by the Holy Spirit, he began to foretell about his son as the Forerunner of the Lord. 

King Herod began to slaughter the children of Bethlehem after the Lord Jesus had been born. The king sent men to find and kill the son of Zachariah because he had heard all that had happened to Zachariah, and how John had been born. Elizabeth fled with John when she saw the soldiers. Herod was enraged that the child John had not been found and ordered Zachariah to be slain before the altar in the temple.

----------


## TER

Today is the Sunday of the Prodigal Son, celebrated two weeks before Great and Holy Lent begins in order to prepare the faithful for the journey towards Pascha.  The next Bible Challenge comes from this great parable about repentance and the love of God.

*In the parable of the prodigal son, the son returns to the father who then calls upon his servants and says "Bring out the best robe and put it on him.. put a ring on his hand... bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry".  According to the Fathers of the Church, what do these gifts symbolize?*

----------


## TER

*HINT:*


It corresponds with the father's words "he was dead, and now he is alive"...

----------


## TER

*HINT:*

 "But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts." Romans 13:14

----------


## TER

*HINT:*



Signet ring: Designed with emblem or seal

----------


## TER

Okay, getting the sense no one is really interested in this thread...

At noon the answer will be revealed.  That mean less then 1 hour to guess in order to win the grand prize of an animated gif and the praise and admiration of your fellow liberty lovers!!!

----------


## Terry1

Without searching, I'm just going to take a wild guess and say the Holy Trinity?

----------


## TER

> Without searching, I'm just going to take a wild guess and say the Holy Trinity?


Good guess!  You get partial credit!!


The answer according to the Fathers of the Church is that the robe symbolizes Holy Baptism ('put on', or 'clothe' Christ), the ring symbolizes Chrismation (the seal of the Holy Spirit), and the feat of the fatted calf symbolizes the Holy Eucharist (the heavenly banquet).  Thus, like man who has fallen on account of disobedience and selfish desires (in imitation of Adam), and has ended up in a deprived condition leading towards loneliness and death and separation from God, that through self-reflection, awareness of their sins, and through repentance is reunited with God through confession, Baptism, Chrismation and ultimately to the Holy Eucharist.  From death, to life.

----------


## Terry1

Whoo-hoo, I got a partial!   This is encouraging, I might try to answer some more now. lol

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Okay, getting the sense no one is really interested in this thread...
> 
> At noon the answer will be revealed.  That mean less then 1 hour to guess in order to win the grand prize of an animated gif and the praise and admiration of your fellow liberty lovers!!!


Sorry...I was too sleepy to get up early and play this morning. :/

----------


## TER

> Sorry...I was too sleepy to get up early and play this morning. :/


That's okay HB!  There are more questions to come!

----------


## TER

For our next installment of Bible Challenge, the question is: (drumroll please)

*  Which parable taught by Christ has it's main theme that unless a person forgives then they will not be forgiven?*

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> For our next installment of Bible Challenge, the question is: (drumroll please)
> 
> *  Which parable taught by Christ has it's main theme that unless a person forgives then they will not be forgiven?*


The parable of The Dragnet (Matt. 13:47-50)?  /guesses

----------


## TER

> The parable of The Dragnet (Matt. 13:47-50)?  /guesses


Will have to check with the judges....  Please enjoy this commercial break

----------


## heavenlyboy34

Grrrr...I hate waiting :/ ~impatient~

----------


## TER

> Grrrr...I hate waiting :/ ~impatient~


after long deliberation, the judges have ruled for: 

*Partial Credit!!!*


*Hint:*



100 denarii

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> after long deliberation, the judges have ruled for: 
> 
> *Partial Credit!!!*
> 
> 
> *Hint:*
> 
> 
> 
> 100 denarii


The parable of the two debtors?

----------


## Terry1

> Grrrr...I hate waiting :/ ~impatient~


LOL

----------


## TER

> The parable of the two debtors?


Getting close....

*HINT:*

----------


## TER

To help cool the passions of the Religion subforum, (including my own evil passions), the answer to the last question will be revealed.  It is the Parable which Christ teaches us that only if we forgive others, will He forgive us, and if we do not forgive others, then our sins remain.

*
The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant*

The Savior said more than once, "Forgive, and ye shall be forgiven" (Luke 6:37; cf. Mark 11:25-26), setting our forgiveness of our neighbors as the condition for our forgiveness by the Lord. In one of Christ's talks with His disciples about forgiveness, His instruction on the loving and cautious reproval of a brother who has sinned provoked a question from the Apostle Peter, concerning how many times one must forgive someone who has offended.

The Scribes taught that one could forgive only three times. The Apostle Peter wished to exceed the righteousness of the Old Testament, so raised the number to seven. But Christ, Who urged us to make one's heart pure and bright by all-forgiving love, answers, that one must forgive until 70 times seven, that is, without any limit at all. To make this clear to Peter, Christ told the parable of the unmerciful debtor.




> "Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshiped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellow-servants, which owed him an hundred denarii: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellow-servant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellow-servants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou begged me: shoulds not thou also have had compassion on thy fellow-servant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every brother his trespasses" (Matthew 18:23-35).


The meaning is clear. The king is the Lord, "to Whom all power is given . . . in heaven and in earth" (Matthew 28:18). The king's servants are we insolvent debtors to the Lord. Although our sinfulness makes us unworthy of God's loving kindness, the Lord, through the death of His Son on the Cross, has forgiven us our offenses.

The Kingdom of Heaven is compared unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. Whatever takes place in the Kingdom of Heaven, in the Church of Christ, can be likened to the occasion when the king in the parable wanted to settle accounts with his servants, that is, to require an accounting from them. The King of Heaven has the right to require an accounting of all our thoughts, desires, words, and deeds at any time. We must give Him this accounting, which means to live according to the laws of the Gospel. A great mercy from God is for Him to let us settle our accounts, to pay our debts through repentance. It is most fearful to depart from this world with debts that we cannot pay or repent of in another world.

And when the king had begun to reckon, one servant was brought unto him, who owed him 10,000 talents. The servant brought to the king stood before the face of God. In the parable, 10,000 talents was an enormous sum and a metaphor for an uncountable sum. The debt weighed upon the servant, who wanted so much to be debt free. He may have been glad to stand before the king and to ask for an extension. We may say that he was not brought forcibly, but came after an insistent invitation.

Our fall is so great that we cannot come to God alone. Only a few people, pure in heart, can come to Him alone. Most sinners are brought, by the prayers of the saints, or by misfortune, illness, and other trials that help break us away from passions of this world and remind us about theafter life. The Lord also sends us experienced spiritual directors, both living people or the Holy Fathers in their books.

According to Blessed Theophilact, Archbishop of Bulgaria, the unusual debtor is not one man, but all of humanity. Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov writes that each of our sins is significant, since each offends God. Our sins are as numberless as the talents in the parable. The 10,000 talents are our sins against God's Ten Commandments, our total debts of ingratitude for God's countless mercies toward us. We live in sin and each day increase our debt to God.

Inasmuch as he could not pay 10,000, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, to make payment. This seeming cruelty of the king is disturbing to some. Why did the lord sell both the wife and the children and all that the servant had when their loss means he could never pay his debt.

Hierarch John Chrysostom explains: "Not out of cruelty or inhumanity, but in order to frighten the servant, and thereby to spur him on to submissiveness, without any intention of selling him! For, if he had had this in mind, then he would not have heeded his request and would not have shown him his loving-kindness. He only wanted to make the servant understand how many debts he was forgiving him, and through this means to compel him to be more lenient toward his fellow-debtor. For, if, having realized both the weight of his debt and the greatness of the forgiveness, he nevertheless began to choke his fellow servant, then what extent of cruelty would he not have reached, if he had not previously been made to understand by such means?"

In desperation, the servant fell down, and worshiped him, saying, "Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all." Terror provoked humility in the servant. Then the lord of that servant was moved to compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. The same thing takes place with every sinner, when he realizes the whole depth of his fall and the extent of his debt before God.

When we turn to God with repentance and a sincere promise to correct ourselves, then the Lord is ready at that second to grant us complete remission of sins. Hierarch John Chrysostom remarks concerning this: "what power prayer has! This debtor showed neither fasting nor indifferent to riches--nothing of the kind; however, when he, bereft and devoid of every virtue, only asked his lord, then he succeeded in inclining him to mercy. Let us not weaken in our prayers. Dost thou not have boldness? For this, then, approach, in order to acquire great boldness. He Who wishes to be reconciled with thee is not a man before whom thou must be ashamed and blush; it is God, Who desires more than thou to free thee from sin. Thou dost not desire thy safety so much as He seeks thy salvation."

The Lord's forgiveness is heavenly grace, which does not act automatically, but only after the participation of the believer. Of course, the Lord could forgive His servant unilaterally, without repentance, but He wants the debtor to learn from experience and to forgive debts in his own life too.

But this same servant goes out [that is, from repentance and humility], and finds a fellow-servant who owes him 100 dinarii. The first servant forgets about God. If he has remembered about God, then he would be kinder. But he lays hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, "Pay me that thou owest." This sum was so insignificant that it is awkward to name it. The desire to get the sum brings the ungrateful servant to choke his fellow-servant. He claims his own judgment by one standard, but he uses another standard to judge his debtors. He enjoyed the King's love and mercy, but he himself shows no mercy toward others.

Often we see such behavior towards debtors, when we are angry or we remember some offense by someone, and when we mutter offensive words, to choke our neighbor. Our hostile gaze, unnoticed by us ourselves, can harm someone. We can harm his good name when we spread all kinds of false stories about him, choking our neighbor.

We should relate the ungrateful words "pay me" to ourselves. After all, we may demand that someone who has sinned against us offer us satisfaction. If he has caused us material injury, we want him to reimburse us immediately; and if he has offended us, then we demand an apology, We may want him to suffer for his sin to satisfy our self-love. We forget the Savior's words: "With what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again" (Matthew 7:2).

"And his fellow-servant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all." Who does not recall that heartfelt sympathy which we experience when someone asks forgiveness of us? At times we feel awkward; we are ready to forgive and forget everything immediately. But it was not so with the servant: And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. He was implacable. He was blinded by his pitilessness, not at all realizing that by this he is condemning himself. Such blindness always accompanies one who becomes stern and cruel, who "departs from God," that is, leaves the true path and forgets God's mercy. When we demand immediate satisfaction from one, we are confining ourselves in the prison of alienation from God. We can no longer recite the Lord's Prayer-"Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."

God does not accept prayer by a man unready to forgive his neighbor. The specific words of the Lord are - "Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there remember that thy brother hath aught against thee; leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift." (Matthew 5:23-24).

We learn that bystanders sympathized with the fellow servant who suffered because of the ungrateful servant: "So when his fellow-servants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done." Metropolitan Antony (Khrapovitsky), following the Holy Fathers of the Church, writes that parable fellow-servants are angels and saints, our benefactors in heaven.

"Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou begged me: shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellow-servant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him." Usually, the words "delivered . . . to the tormentors" are taken to mean that God consigns His debtors to eternal torment. But then who can be saved? One must understand tormentors as temporal afflictions, misfortunes, illnesses, and so forth. When we sin, we are directed by desire for enjoyment. Affliction is a fitting redemption of that sin.

But only Christ gives complete redemption. "I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellow-servant, even as I had pity on thee?" These words mean that our lack of desire to forgive our neighbor offends God's loving-kindness and His trust in us. We must soften our hearts, while we can. We must remember God's mercies. Let us heed the meaning of this parable to fulfill Christ's commandment: "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged; condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned; forgive and ye shall be forgiven" (Luke 6:37).

----------


## TER

In the hopes of drawing back our good friend jmdrake, here is another (partially exciting) installment of.....  BIBLE CHALLENGE!!!!  

* Which two prophets of the Old Testament were said to be 'sanctified' while still in the womb?*

----------


## Sola_Fide

Bible Challenge 

* True or False:*


Does God send evil Spirits to tempt and torment men?

(Hint: the answer is in 1 Kings 22:1923 and 1Samuel 16:1423, 18:10, 19:9)

----------


## Sola_Fide

BUMP.  Who's up for the challenge? 







> Bible Challenge 
> 
> * True or False:*
> 
> 
> Does God send evil Spirits to tempt and torment men?
> 
> (Hint: the answer is in 1 Kings 22:1923 and 1Samuel 16:1423, 18:10, 19:9)

----------


## Christian Liberty

> BUMP.  Who's up for the challenge?


Oh, I thought I answered this but I guess not.  Yes, he does.

----------


## TER

> Bible Challenge 
> 
> * True or False:*
> 
> Does God send evil Spirits to tempt and torment men?
> 
> (Hint: the answer is in 1 Kings 22:19–23 and 1Samuel 16:14–23, 18:10, 19:9)


In these rare and exceptional instances in the Old Covenant, we read that God _allowed_ evil spirits to do their _own_ will for the correction of a greater evil.

----------


## TER

* Which two prophets of the Old Testament were said to be 'sanctified' while still in the womb?* 
*HINT:*

One is a Latter Prophet of the Old Covenant, and the other is the Last Prophet of the Old Covenant.

----------


## Terry1

> * Which two prophets of the Old Testament were said to be 'sanctified' while still in the womb?* 
> *HINT:*
> 
> One is a Latter Prophet of the Old Covenant, and the other is the Last Prophet of the Old Covenant.


I know Jeremiah was one, but the other I can only think of as John the Baptist.

----------


## TER

> I know Jeremiah was one, but the other I can only think of as John the Baptist.




*WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!*

----------


## Terry1

> *WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!*


Yay---I'm a winner!

----------


## Sola_Fide

> In these rare and exceptional instances in the Old Covenant, we read that God _allowed_ evil spirits to do their _own_ will for the correction of a greater evil.


That does not fit what the text says at all.  That is your unbiblical, man centered traditions talking.  The Bible says:




> 1 Samuel 16:14-16 NIV
> 
> Now the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, *and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him.* 
> 
> Sauls attendants said to him, See, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you. Let our lord command his servants here to search for someone who can play the lyre. He will play when the evil spirit from God comes on you, and you will feel better.

----------


## Christian Liberty

All the text really says is that the spirit is from the Lord.  What that means isn't really expounded upon.  But technically, it would be correct that the evil spirit wanted to torment Saul, would it not?

----------


## TER

I think the basis is the same.  God _allowed_ the evil spirit to follow it's own will in tormenting Saul._ From the Lord_ in that He _permitted_ the evil spirit.  Because He permitted it, it can be said 'from' the Lord.  But nevertheless, these are still rare and exceptional instances in the Old Covenant where we read this, and this over-obsession and sick preoccupied fascination of yours to prove God as the author of evil is quite disturbing and I wished you could stop already.  You are not bringing anyone closer to Christ by doing this.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> I think the basis is the same.  God _allowed_ the evil spirit to follow it's own will in tormenting Saul._ From the Lord_ in that He _permitted_ the evil spirit.  Because He permitted it, it can be said 'from' the Lord.  But nevertheless, these are still rare and exceptional instances in the Old Covenant where we read this, and this over-obsession and sick preoccupied fascination of yours to prove God as the author of evil is quite disturbing and I wished you could stop already.  You are not bringing anyone closer to Christ by doing this.


You talking to me or SF?

----------


## TER

> You talking to me or SF?


It was in reference to SF's post.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> All the text really says is that the spirit is from the Lord.


That's all I'm saying too.  It's TER who is coming up with all of these extra "permission" ideas and ideas about how God and the Devils operate.

Let's not go beyond the text.  The evil spirit was from the Lord.  God governs all things, including evil, for His own good purpose.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> I think the basis is the same.  God _allowed_ the evil spirit to follow it's own will in tormenting Saul._ From the Lord_ in that He _permitted_ the evil spirit.  Because He permitted it, it can be said 'from' the Lord.  But nevertheless, these are still rare and exceptional instances in the Old Covenant where we read this, and this over-obsession and sick preoccupied fascination of yours to prove God as the author of evil is quite disturbing and I wished you could stop already.  You are not bringing anyone closer to Christ by doing this.


He is derailing threads and annoying people, though-which is one of his primary goals. :P

----------


## TER

> That's all I'm saying too.  It's TER who is coming up with all of these extra "permission" ideas and ideas about how God and the Devils operate.
> 
> Let's not go beyond the text.  The evil spirit was from the Lord.  God governs all things, including evil, for His own good purpose.


Very well Sola.  Can you please start a new thread to discuss this?  Please?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> He is derailing threads and annoying people, though-which is one of his primary goals. :P


Get your panties out of the bunch and join the discussion please.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Very well Sola.  Can you please start a new thread to discuss this?  Please?


The best route I've found is to flag the inappropriate posts and ask the mod team to create a seperate thread for them.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> The best route I've found is to flag the inappropriate posts and ask the mod team to create a seperate thread for them.


Remember when HB used to be all about "freedom"???

He got ahold of some man-centered, church-centered theology and it changed him.  I've seen it happen before folks.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> Remember when HB used to be all about "freedom"???
> 
> He got ahold of some man-centered, church-centered theology and it changed him.  I've seen it happen before folks.


That doesn't necessarily make him anti-freedom, considering that this site is private property.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

Looking forward to the next bible challenge, TER.

----------


## Christian Liberty

True or False, when God says he chooses Jacob and not Esau in Romans 9:12-13, God says that his choice is conditioned on the choices he knew Esau and Jacob would make in their lives.

----------


## Terry1

> True or False, when God says he chooses Jacob and not Esau in Romans 9:12-13, God says that his choice is conditioned on the choices he knew Esau and Jacob would make in their lives.


Right/true, but God didn't choose for Esau---God foreknew Esau's choice.  Same as those pots created for destruction.  God foreknew their choice, but He didn't take their free will away to make that choice for themselves.  

This is getting old FF.  God came to save the world--all people even though He foreknew ALL wouldn't come.  God's foreknowledge can not usurp His eternal decree.  We have been decreed eternally free to choose whom we will follow.  If this were not so--God's angels would not have had the ability to choose opposite God.

God does not want to hold His children hostage to Him through force.  God only wants those who want Him.

----------


## TER

Due to popular demand (and when I say popular, I mean my friend HB)

here is another (partially exciting) installment of.....  BIBLE CHALLENGE!!!!  

* According to the Tradition of the Church, what did Christ write on the ground when the women who was charged with adultery was brought before Him by her accusers?*

----------


## eduardo89

> Due to popular demand (and when I say popular, I mean my friend HB)
> 
> here is another (partially exciting) installment of.....  BIBLE CHALLENGE!!!!  
> 
> * According to the Tradition of the Church, what did Christ write on the ground when the women who was charged with adultery was brought before Him by her accusers?*


He wrote the names of the accusers to fulfill Jeremiah 17:13?




> O LORD, the hope of Israel, all who forsake thee shall be put to shame;* those who turn away from thee shall be written in the earth*, for they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living water.

----------


## TER

> He wrote the names of the accusers to fulfill Jeremiah 17:13?




*WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!*

Then the legislator of morality and human conduct stooped down to the ground, smoothed out the dust with the palm of His hand, and began to write (John 8:6). What did the Lord write in the dust? The Evangelist maintains silence concerning this and does not write of it.  It was too repulsive and vile to be written in the Book of Joy. However, this has been present in tradition, and it is horrible. The Lord wrote something unexpected and startling for the elders, the accusers of the sinful woman. With His finger He disclosed their secret iniquities. For these pointers-out of the sins of others were experts in concealing their own sins. But it is pointless to try to hide anything from the eyes of One Who sees all.

    "M (eshulam) has stolen treasures from the temple," wrote the Lord's finger in the dust.
    "A (sher) has committed adultery with his brother's wife;
    "S (halum) has committed perjury;
    "E (led) has struck his own father;
    "A (marich) has committed sodomy;
    "J (oel) has worshipped idols."

And so one statement after another was written in the dust by the awesome finger of the righteous Judge. And those to whom these words referred, bending down, read what was written, with inexpressible horror. They trembled from fright, and dared not look one another in the eye. They gave no further thought to the sinful woman. They thought only of themselves and of their own death, which was written in the dust. Not a single tongue was able to move, to pronounce that troublesome and evil question, "What sayest Thou?"  The Lord said nothing. That which is so filthy is fit to be written only in filthy dust. Another reason why the Lord wrote on the ground is even greater and more wonderful. That which is written in the dust is easily erased and removed. Christ did not want their sins to be made known to everyone. Had He desired this, He would have announced them before all the people, and would have accused them and had them stoned to death, in accordance with the law. But He, the innocent Lamb of God, did not contemplate revenge or death for those who had prepared for Him a thousand deaths, who desired His death more than everlasting life for themselves. The Lord wanted only to correct them, to make them think of themselves and their own sins. He wanted to remind them that while they carried the burden of their own transgressions, they shouldn't be strict judges of the transgressions of others. This alone did the Lord desire. And when this was done, the dust was again smoothed over, and that which was written disappeared.

read the rest here

----------


## heavenlyboy34

That question has been driving me crazy all day!  Glad someone could get it.   Hopefully I'll get the next one. :/

----------


## TER

*In which episode of Moses' life do we clearly see him experience theosis?*

----------


## Terry1

I think I messed up here answering a question that's already been answered. LOL  Just ignore me.  I deleted my blunder.

----------


## Terry1

> *In which episode of Moses' life do we clearly see him experience theosis?*


Was it this?

----------


## TER

> I'm at a loss here unless it was Peter because he denied Jesus. Was it Peter?


*PARTIAL CREDIT!*

According to the oral tradition passed down since the early Church, it is the Evangelist St. Mark himself who is the young man who ran from the guards.

St. Mark was a close companion of St. Peter (it is believed that his Book of the Gospel were the oral teachings of St. Peter).  St. Mark also travelled with St. Paul and St. Barnanbus.  He later became the first Bishop of Alexandria.

----------


## Terry1

> *PARTIAL CREDIT!*
> 
> According to the oral tradition passed down since the early Church, it is the Evangelist St. Mark himself who is the young man who ran from the guards.
> 
> St. Mark was a close companion of St. Peter (it is believed that his Book of the Gospel were the oral teachings of St. Peter).  St. Mark also travelled with St. Paul and St. Barnanbus.  He later became the first Bishop of Alexandria.


Oh, I thought someone answered that one already.  I deleted my answer, good thing you caught it beforehand.  Yes, I see now where it's said that Mark is the young man fleeing naked.  It seems like a lot of the prophets and disciples ran around butt naked. LOL

I'm in the Ouzo tonight, LOL.

----------


## TER

> Was it this?



*PARTIAL CREDIT!!!*

Such an experience would definitely qualify as theosis.  

The specific instance which clearly reveals this to others that he experienced theosis (and what has occured throughout the centuries in the lives of the greatest Christian saints) is when Moses' face shined with the uncreated Light of God after speaking with God on Mount Sinai, as pictured below:

----------


## Terry1

> *PARTIAL CREDIT!!!*
> 
> Such an experience would definitely qualify as theosis.  
> 
> The specific instance which clearly reveals this to others that he experienced theosis (and what has occured throughout the centuries in the lives of the greatest Christian saints) is when Moses' face shined with the uncreated Light of God after speaking with God on Mount Sinai, as pictured below:


Yes, that's right, his face was glowing when he came down off the Mount.  I should have known that. *sigh* Great questions TER!

----------


## TER

Here is another example when St. Stephen, the first deacon in the history of the Church, was martyred and he had an experience of theosis prior to his death: ( a western painting from the Renessaince)


Here is another western depiction below.  The thing to note is the use of the halo around the head.  Indeed, the iconographic use of halos signify theosis, not unlike what the Prophet Moses, St. Stephen, and many other saints experienced.


So that what you see in an Orthodox icon would be drawn like this:

----------


## Terry1

Those paintings are so beautiful.  There are many like that in our Orthodox church here to.  Fr. Chris explained them to us as we passed by them through the halls because I noticed them and asked him about them.  Many he said were brought back from Greece.  

  I had an experience once that even I was unaware of until someone told me after it happened.  This was many years ago now, I was probably 19 years old or so.  We were in a bible study and praying together, everyone started staring at me and I had no idea what was happening, but during the study and prayer, the man sitting next to me almost fell off his chair to my surprise and then the others told me that my face was glowing.  I had no idea what the fuss was all about.  It does confirm to me that God has had His hand on me most of my life.  That's just one spiritual experience I've had out of many.

----------


## TER

And now today's  BIBLE CHALLENGE!!!!  

* In the Scriptures, what does God say He desires more so than sacrifice?*

----------


## eduardo89

> And now today's  BIBLE CHALLENGE!!!!  
> 
> * In the Scriptures, what does God say He desires more so than sacrifice?*


If He's anything like me, it'd say a platter of fine cheese. My second answer would be mercy. Hosea 6:6 and repeated in Matthew 9:13.

----------


## Terry1

I know the answer to that the one TER--

----------


## Terry1

Oh--ed got it already--sorry, but enjoy the song.  

Hugs

----------


## eduardo89

TER, where are my fireworks and balloons??

----------


## TER

> If He's anything like me, it'd say a platter of fine cheese. My second answer would be mercy. Hosea 6:6 and repeated in Matthew 9:13.


*WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!*


Sorry about the delay, I have been swamped lately!

----------


## Terry1

Ready for the next challenge.  Hope I see it before someone else answers.

----------


## TER

And now tonight's  BIBLE CHALLENGE!!!!  

*What two properties of reality does God create in the first and second days according to the Book of Genesis?*

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> And now tonight's  BIBLE CHALLENGE!!!!  
> 
> *What two properties of reality does God create in the first and second days according to the Book of Genesis?*


Temporal reality (all tangible things, visible and invisible) and the reality of time (without time, the physical world/universe could not exist).  The official beginning of physics.

----------


## TER

> Temporal reality (all tangible things, visible and invisible) and the reality of time (without time, the physical world/universe could not exist).  The official beginning of physics.


*WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!!!!*



Time and Space!  And in different beginnings and days, demonstrating God is Lord over time and space!

----------


## heavenlyboy34

YAYYY!!  I WIN!!!   Nice fireworks!

----------


## Sola_Fide

*Bible Challenge!*


_What is the second commandment?_

----------


## heavenlyboy34

Looking forward to the next challenge!

----------


## Sola_Fide

...

----------


## TER

And now tonight's  BIBLE CHALLENGE!!!!  

*Of the Four Gospels, which one has a meal or feeding reference, in every single chapter?*

----------


## Sola_Fide

*Bible Challenge!*

_What does the Bible say a "saint" is?_

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> And now tonight's  BIBLE CHALLENGE!!!!  
> 
> *Of the Four Gospels, which one has a meal or feeding reference, in every single chapter?*


Mark, IIRC.

----------


## TER

> Mark, IIRC.


You are close!

  Here is a hint: it was the last of the synoptic Gospels to be written...

----------


## Sola_Fide

> You are close!
> 
>   Here is a hint: it was the last of the synoptic Gospels to be written...


How do you know when the gospels were written and in what order?

----------


## TER

And now tonight's special installment of BIBLE CHALLENGE!!!! 

*Who's prophecy in the Old Testament writings, regarding a star in the skies which would herald the arrival of the Savior of Israel, did the magi look for and see fulfilled?*

----------


## TER

Nobody wants to guess?

----------


## TER

> And now tonight's  BIBLE CHALLENGE!!!!  
> 
> *Of the Four Gospels, which one has a meal or feeding reference, in every single chapter?*


I see that this one was never answered.  Any other guesses other than Mark?

----------


## TER

> You are close!
> 
>   Here is a hint: it was the last of the synoptic Gospels to be written...





> How do you know when the gospels were written and in what order?


I should say, "considered by many scholars to be the last of the synoptic Gosples to be written"

----------


## RJB

...

----------


## TER

RJB is searching!  Quick, anyone want to give an answer before he finds it?!

----------


## RJB

> RJB is searching!  Quick, anyone want to give an answer before he finds it?!


(Only TER is allowed to read the Italics.  *The rest can only read what is in bold*)  _TER, I deleted my post because I said the Gospel of John (I had a good feeling) and THEN I saw the clue that it was the last synoptic Gospel.  So I tried to tiptoe out of the room, but no I'm not searching.  I usually sit these out because Biblegateway always makes me look smarter than I actually am and I feel guilty, but for dramatic effect I'll make the following announcement_  

(Everybody else can read this.  Thanks for your honesty.)
*I'm looking really hard!  Hurry up guys!*

----------


## TER

> (Only TER is allowed to read the Italics.  The rest can only read what is in bold)  _TER, I deleted my post because I said the Gospel of John (I had a good feeling) and THEN I saw the clue that it was the last synoptic Gospel.  So I tried to tiptoe out of the room, but no I'm not searching.  I usually sit these out because Biblegateway always makes me look smarter than I actually am and I feel guilty, but for dramatic effect I'll make the following announcement_  
> 
> (Everybody else can read this.  Thanks for your honesty.)
> *I'm looking really hard!  Hurry up guys!*


Thanks RJB!  Keep looking!

----------


## TER

PM: to RJB

_Hi RJB, I'm am writing this private message in italics in case the NSA is monitoring my pms to you.

Thanks for the guess and for helping to get others into the game.  

I wish you a blessed Christmas, my brother!  

- Rand Paul_

----------


## TER

> *Who's prophecy in the Old Testament writings, regarding a star in the skies which would herald the arrival of the Savior of Israel, did the magi look for and see fulfilled?*


Hint: It's found in the Book of Numbers...

----------


## euphemia

Balaam

----------


## TER

> Balaam



*WE HAVE A WINNER!!!*





I shall see Him, but not now: I shall behold Him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth, and Edom shall be a possession. Seir also shall be a possession for his enemies; and Israel shall do valiantly. Out of Jacob shall come He that shall have dominion, and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city (Numbers 24:17_19).

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> I see that this one was never answered.  Any other guesses other than Mark?


Pretty sure it's Matthew. Mark was the first written synoptic, that I'm sure of.

----------


## TER

> Pretty sure it's Matthew. Mark was the first written synoptic, that I'm sure of.


So close!

The answer to the question is the Gospel of Luke!

In almost every chapter of Luke, there is some reference to eating or a meal or food.  Either Christ is at a meal or a supper, or feeding the masses, or teaching a parable with a meal parallel, etc.

Luke is believed to have been the last of the synoptic Gospels to have been written, and in it we see how he hints with strong Eucharistic undertones the importance of table fellowship.  We see how by the time he wrote his gospel, the Eucharistic worship structure of the Church, which is a reflection and image of the eschatological Heavenly Banquet and Marriage Feast, had become well solidified and practiced and normative within the worshipping early Church.

----------


## TER

Today's Bible Challenge question!

When Christ was hanging on the cross, it is recorded in the Holy Scriptures that the chief priests were mocking him, along with the scribes and elders, saying,

  "He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God."  (Matthew 27:43)


*Where is the only prediction of Matthew 27:43 which can be found in the entire Old Testament? *

----------


## pcosmar

All through Isaiah.

But not sure what you are looking for exactly...



> The Spirit of the Lord GOD is on Me, because the LORD has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and release from darkness to the prisoners, to proclaim the year of the LORD’s favor and the day of our God’s vengeance, to comfort all who mourn,…


was the first to come to mind.
then Isaiah 9



> For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, *Mighty God, Everlasting Father,* Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish and sustain it with justice and righteousness from that time and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of Hosts will accomplish this.…

----------


## TER

> All through Isaiah.
> 
> But not sure what you are looking for exactly...
> 
> 
> was the first to come to mind.
> then Isaiah 9


Great guess!  Those are excellent verses, and of course, prophecies of the Messiah, the Suffering Servant, abound in Isaiah.

For the particular verse I am looking for, it is pretty much an exact prophecy regarding this scene in the New Testament as described above in Matthew.

----------


## TER

> *Where is the only prediction of Matthew 27:43 which can be found in the entire Old Testament? *


Hint:  The verse in question is found in a book of the Bible which most Christians in history have regarded as canonical, however was unfortunately removed by the Protestant Reformers and is now not found in most English translations of the Old Testament.

----------


## euphemia

You will likely have to tell us, then.  I don’t know that I even have a resource for that.

----------


## pcosmar

> Hint:  The verse in question is found in a book of the Bible which most Christians in history have regarded as canonical, however was unfortunately removed by the Protestant Reformers and is now not found in most English translations of the Old Testament.


*
I Hate when they Do that..*

There are precious Jewels in Enoch.

----------


## TER

The answer can be found in the *Wisdom of Solomon 2:12-24*, which is one of the clearest prophecies in the Old Testament Scriptures describing the trial and death of the Messiah.  With regards to the verse in Matthew above, the particular part which says "for if the Righteous Man is God’s Son, He will help Him, and will deliver Him from the hand of His adversaries."

Wisdom of Solomon 2:12-24

"Let us lie in wait for the Righteous Man,

because He is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions;

He reproaches us for sins against the law,

and accuses us of sins against our training.

 He professes to have knowledge of God,

and calls Himself a Child of the Lord.

 He became to us a reproof of our thoughts;  the very sight of Him is a burden to us,

because His manner of life is unlike that of others,

and His ways are strange.

We are considered by Him as something base,

and He avoids our ways as unclean;

He calls the last end of the righteous happy,

and boasts that God is His Father.

Let us see if His words are true,

and let us test what will happen at the end of His life;

 for if the Righteous Man is God’s Son, He will help Him,

and will deliver Him from the hand of His adversaries.

Let us test Him with insult and torture,

that we may find out how gentle He is,

and make trial of His forbearance.

 Let us condemn Him to a shameful death,

for, according to what He says, He will be protected.”

Thus they reasoned, but they were led astray,

for their wickedness blinded them,

 and they did not know the secret purposes of God,

nor hope for the wages of holiness,

nor discern the prize for blameless souls;

 for God created man for incorruption,

and made him in the image of His own eternity,

but through the devil’s envy death entered the world,

and those who belong to his party experience it.

----------


## euphemia

That’s a lovely passage.

Our current rector uses apocryphal readings from time to time.  They have never come up on my turns to read.

----------


## TER

Ok, the last question was tricky since many may not be familiar with the Book of the Wisdom of Solomon.

Here is an easier one:

*Which Psalm verse demonstrates that both 1) life begins at conception and 2) that we are born fallen (due to ancestral sin).*

----------


## TER

> That’s a lovely passage.
> 
> Our current rector uses apocryphal readings from time to time.  They have never come up on my turns to read.


It really is an amazing passage.  I'm happy you enjoyed reading it!

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## euphemia

> Ok, the last question was tricky since they may not be familiar with the Book of the Wisdom of Solomon.
> 
> Here is an easier one:
> 
> *Which Psalm verse demonstrates that both 1) life begins at conception and 2) that we are born with ancestral sin of Adam.*


Off the top of my head I want to say Psalm 51.

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## euphemia

...I was born in sin, and in sin did my mother conceive me....

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## TER

> Off the top of my head I want to say Psalm 51.



*Well done!*

Psalm 51 (50 in the Septuagint) has the following verse (NKJV):

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.

Some have misunderstood the verse and believe that it is saying that the mother had sin in conceiving the child, as if the act of conception is sinful.  However, the correct understanding is that from the moment of conception within my mother's womb, I have sin upon me.

For this reason the Lord came into to the world, to heal us and destroy the power of sin which we are born into.

Great job Euphemia!

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## euphemia

Thank you.  Lent is awesome in its reflectiveness.  I don’t know if I am eager to go back to talk radio and the 24/7 news cycle or not.  The detox has been very healthy.

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## pcosmar

""Let us see if His words are true,""

That echos all the way back to the Garden..

same voice and tone

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## TER

Tonight’s Bible Challenge:

*Why does Judah exclaim “She is more righteous than I” after he realizes that Tamar had tricked him into conceiving a child?  (Gen 38:25-26)*

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## euphemia

> Tonight’s Bible Challenge:
> 
> *Why does Judah exclaim “She is more righteous than I” after he realizes that Tamar had tricked him into conceiving a child?  (Gen 38:25-26)*


Tamar was a widow, therefore, one of her brothers in-law should have taken her to wife, but had not made her an offer.  The trick was that she was not dressed in the clothing of a widow, but was veiled like a prostitute.  Judah went in to her and conceived a child.  She was going by the point of the law and Judah was not.

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## TER

> Tamar was a widow, therefore, one of her brothers in-law should have taken her to wife, but had not made her an offer.  The trick was that she was not dressed in the clothing of a widow, but was veiled like a prostitute.  Judah went in to her and conceived a child.  She was going by the point of the law and Judah was not.



Well done and excellent explanation!

To answer this question, we have to understand the culture of the people of the Old Testament and resist the temptation to impose our cultural norms on them. 

Although in our current world, Tamars actions would be reprehensible, in her own culture it was Judah who was worthy of rebuke. For it was Judah who had failed to honor the levirate law and had allowed another household to take responsibility for the support of his widowed daughter in law. In Israelite culture, Judah was the villain; Tamar was the courageous heroine.

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## euphemia

it’s a delicate thing.  The issue had to do with inheritance. It had to stay within the tribe.  Tamar’s husband was reported to a very wicked man and the Lord caused his days on earth to be few in number, so to speak.

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## tfurrh

Also very important that Judah had a kid with Tamar.

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## TER

> Also very important that Judah had a kid with Tamar.


So true.  Indeed, Perez (one of twins) is the descendant of our very own Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

It is interesting to note that in the geneology provided in the Gospel of Matthew, we find Tamar listed there, which is very unusual given that the Hebrews regarded one's patrilineage according to the father and would list it so.  

This then takes us to the next installement of:

BIBLE CHALLENGE!!!


*Why do you think Matthew listed the names of the Tamar, Rachel, Ruth, and Bethsheba in the geneology of Christ, which would be very unusual to do so in the cultural context of the time?*

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## euphemia

I think the short answer is that Matthew was documenting according to the Hebrew way of female descendency.  I’m not really sure why that is.  I have a Messianic friend and they attend Messianic services because she is Jewish, not her husband.

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## TER

> I think the short answer is that Matthew was documenting according to the Hebrew way of female descendency.  I’m not really sure why that is.  I have a Messianic friend and they attend Messianic services because she is Jewish, not her husband.


There is no definitive answer which I have found for why St. Matthew mentions those particular women since doing so is atypical, but there is some speculation as to why which seems to make sense.

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## euphemia

Especially since Ruth was a Moabitess.

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## TER

> Especially since Ruth was a Moabitess.


yep, that is very relevant to where I am trying to get at...

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## tfurrh

> So true.  Indeed, Perez (one of twins) is the descendant of our very own Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
> 
> It is interesting to note that in the geneology provided in the Gospel of Matthew, we find Tamar listed there, which is very unusual given that the Hebrews regarded one's patrilineage according to the father and would list it so.  
> 
> This then takes us to the next installement of:
> 
> BIBLE CHALLENGE!!!
> 
> 
> *Why do you think Matthew listed the names of the Tamar, Rachel, Ruth, and Bethsheba in the geneology of Christ, which would be very unusual to do so in the cultural context of the time?*


I think it is because, from the fall of man, God promises redemption for mankind (seed in Gen 3:15). Though perhaps subtle, the events that fulfill this promise and preserve the lineage are the main point of stories like Abraham, Jacob & Esau, Joseph (which tells of Judah and Tamar), Rahab, Ruth, David being king, and Bathsheba's son becoming King. I think Matthew's introduction reminds us of that, then tells the promised seed is here.

Many times the paternal blessing or chosen line was passed on contrary to the norms of their times (and even contrary to those bestowing it), which was God saying this is My way...not yours. I think Matthew again reminds the reader of this.

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## TER

> I think it is because, from the fall of man, God promises redemption for mankind (seed in Gen 3:15). Though perhaps subtle, the events that fulfill this promise and preserve the lineage are the main point of stories like Abraham, Jacob & Esau, Joseph (which tells of Judah and Tamar), Rahab, Ruth, David being king, and Bathsheba's son becoming King. I think Matthew's introduction reminds us of that, then tells the promised seed is here.
> 
> Many times the paternal blessing or chosen line was passed on contrary to the norms of their times (and even contrary to those bestowing it), which was God saying this is My way...not yours. I think Matthew again reminds the reader of this.


*We have a winner!!!!*


Great job tfurrh!  

As you mention above, we see that God's ways are not our ways.  God's plans do not always follow the plans we would think they would or should.  He is not restrained to any law or precept He places upon us sinners.  Thus, for example, as the normal law would be that the eldest son would replace the patriarch as the head of the household, we see God through His spokesman Samuel choose the youngest of Jesse's eight sons to become the leader (King David).  Also, over and over again, we see how God takes what would seem to be unsavory or unrighteous situations or players in the eyes of the observers, and use it for a greater good to complete His mysterious plan.  What God does which may seem contrary to the norms of the day just reveals how little we truly understand the good will of God.

Even more to the point of the inclusion of the women in St. Matthew's Gospel, we see again God revealing His plan and mystery of salvation for mankind.

The geneologies of the OT make the legal structure of the patriarchal system obvious as women are typically not named.  When women _are_ named, something unusual is afoot and we should be asking why.  A woman might be named in a genealogy if a man had several wives who had sons, such as with Jacob and Esau's geneology in Genesis 35 and Genesis 36.  A woman might be named in the extremely rare case in which she might inherit lands or goods.  But most often , women are named when the writer has something to say.

In the case of the geneology of Matthew 1, the opening chapter of the New Testament, here we have information which was most significant to a first century Jewish audience regarding the credentials of one claiming to be the Messiah - namely their geneology.  Any Jew knew that the Messiah must be the offpsring of Abraham, and the son of David.  However, in this geneology of the bloodline of Christ, we see four women named:  Rahab, Ruth, the wife of Uriah (Bathsheba) and Mary.  The Virgin Mary's inclusion is obvious, but what of the others?  What was Rahab's occupation?  Ruth's nationality? Bathsheba's claim to fame?  Why would Matthew include these women in the opening chapter of the NT?  What does this say about the nature of the deliverance that this Messiah is bringing?  

That this deliverance is for all people!  Not just the Jews.  Not just the righteous.  Rather, the unclean, the foreigner, the sinner.  If they will believe as Rahab believed, then they are welcome.  Not merely welcome into the new community, but welcome even into the lineage of the Messiah!

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## TER

And the next question in Bible Challenge!

*What does the word Bethlehem mean, and how does it's meaning relate to Jesus Christ?*

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## heavenlyboy34

> And the next question in Bible Challenge!
> 
> *What does the word Bethlehem mean, and how does it's meaning relate to Jesus Christ?*


Its literal meaning is "House Of Bread". I reckon we could tie this to the Last Supper and how the Church and many Christians in history have referred to Him as "Bread Of Life". Sort of a "bookend" parallel between Nativity and Pascha.

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## TER

> Its literal meaning is "House Of Bread". I reckon we could tie this to the Last Supper and how the Church and many Christians in history have referred to Him as "Bread Of Life". Sort of a "bookend" parallel between Nativity and Pascha.




*We have a winner!!*
As noted, Bethlehem means "House of Bread".

As Christ said regarding Himself, He is the "Bread of life".  He is the Manna which came down from Heaven to feed the world and give life to the world.

This most certainly has Eucharistic overtones, especially since He states this in the scene in John 6, which is the most theologically important chapter in the Gospels regarding the nature of the Eucharist which He would shortly institute in the Last Supper.  

Thus, Bethlehem, which was prophecized to be the birthplace of the Messiah, is the house or the place whereby the Bread of life, namely Jesus Christ, would be born.

Great job!

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## TER

And now for some more fun!

*Who was the first person in the Bible who is noted to have prophesized?*

This one is a bit tricky, so I will give a hint:  The answer is going to make one of our RPF members smile and very happy

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## tfurrh

> And now for some more fun!
> 
> *Who was the first person in the Bible who is noted to have prophesized?*
> 
> This one is a bit tricky, so I will give a hint:  The answer is going to make one of our RPF members smile and very happy


First in order of books or chronologically? I can't remember if Genesis says Enoch prophecized, but I know Jude does.

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## pcosmar

> First in order of books or chronologically? I can't remember if Genesis says Enoch prophecized, but I know Jude does.


Enoch is who came to my mind..

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## TER

> Enoch is who came to my mind..




*We have a winner!!*
As noted in Jude 1:14

 "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints..."


I was hoping I would draw you out to play this game, my good friend!

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## TER

> First in order of books or chronologically? I can't remember if Genesis says Enoch prophecized, but I know Jude does.


I don't know how I missed this post!  I saw pscomar's when I refreshed.

You both will have to share the prize!  lol

Genesis doesnt mention Enoch prophecizing as I recall.  It is in Jude where we learn of it.

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## pcosmar

> *We have a winner!!*
> As noted in Jude 1:14
> 
>  "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints..."
> 
> 
> I was hoping I would draw you out to play this game, my good friend!


I pop in on occasion.

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## pcosmar

> I don't know how I missed this post!  I saw pscomar's when I refreshed.
> 
> You both will have to share the prize!  lol
> 
> Genesis doesnt mention Enoch prophecizing as I recall.  *It is in Jude where we learn of it.*


and that is currious,,, so I went in search...

and a very interesting read it is,,, and much deeper than I swim yet.

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## TER

And now, for the next challenge!

*What Old Testament verse is quoted or alluded to the most times in the New Testament?  For extra credit, what is the next most quoted OT verse?*

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## Superfluous Man

> And now, for the next challenge!
> 
> *What Old Testament verse is quoted or alluded to the most times in the New Testament?  For extra credit, what is the next most quoted OT verse?*


The most quoted chapter has to be Psalm 110, but a few different verses of it are quoted multiple times, so just one verse from it may not win this contest. My guess is that the most quoted verse is Psalm 110:1. But it may also be Lev 19:18, "Love your neighbor as yourself," which must get quoted 5 or more different times in the NT.

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## pcosmar

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,,," Christs commission from Isaiah.

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## heavenlyboy34

> And now, for the next challenge!
> 
> *What Old Testament verse is quoted or alluded to the most times in the New Testament?  For extra credit, what is the next most quoted OT verse?*


I'll SWAG Psalm 69, E.C.-Psalm 70.

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## TER

> The most quoted chapter has to be Psalm 110, but a few different verses of it are quoted multiple times, so just one verse from it may not win this contest. My guess is that the most quoted verse is Psalm 110:1. But it may also be Lev 19:18, "Love your neighbor as yourself," which must get quoted 5 or more different times in the NT.




*We have a winner!!*
The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool” (Psalm 110:1).

This verse is quoted or alluded to 23 times in the NT. It is quoted in 11 out of 27 NT books, and by 7 of the 9 NT authors!

 “Love your neighbor as yourself” (Lev. 19:18) is the second most quoted OT verse. This shows up in seven different places in the NT. The vast majority of other verses quoted appear a couple times, or only once.  Overall, there are 2,300 references to OT verses or quotes in the NT if you count allusions and paraphrases.

Great job!

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## tfurrh

> And now, for the next challenge!
> 
> *What Old Testament verse is quoted or alluded to the most times in the New Testament?  For extra credit, what is the next most quoted OT verse?*


My official guess (probably wrong). Genesis 2 not sure the verse "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife. 2 become 1." (Translation mine)

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## tfurrh

> My official guess (probably wrong).


Yup lol

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## Superfluous Man

..

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## TER

And now, for the next challenge!

*Where in the Hebrew Bible (OT) is (arguably) the clearest expression of hope for resurrection and the final vision of God, that is, of an Incarnate God-Redeemer?*

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## TER

Hint:  the person who prophecied it was not a Jew.

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## jkr

WORD!

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## pcosmar

JOB




> But I know that my Redeemer lives, and that at the last He will stand upon the earth. Even after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God.…


revelation Knowledge..  Job knew that..way back then.




> Even now my witness is in heaven, and my advocate is on high!


did time with Job.

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## TER

*WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!!!!*


Awesome!   I thought this one may have been a little tricky but you nailed it!!

Job 19:25-27

For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth;
And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God,
Whom I shall see for myself,
And my eyes shall behold, and not another.

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