# Lifestyles & Discussion > Bitcoin / Cryptocurrencies >  One Bitcoin is now worth more dollars ($29.50) than one troy ounce of silver ($29.44)

## muh_roads

We'll use this thread to track the spot price.  Also here is a fun fact...

This is how things have been going...Consider this trend, with checkpoints every 5 months:


A Bitcoin has never been worth less than...

   Feb-2011                               $0.50
Jul-2011 (5 months later)          $1
Dec-2011 (5 months later)         $2
May-2012 (5 months later)        $4
Oct-2012 (5 months later)         $8
    Feb-2013 (3 months later)                  $29   (Bubble that will dip back to $16 possibly?)

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## ninepointfive

holy crap - how did they value so high since Oct?

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## muh_roads

> holy crap - how did they value so high since Oct?


 - Iran citizens discovering them to get around sanctions.
 - Wordpress accepting them
 - Reddit accepting them

Many other stories out there I'm sure...

It's growing.  It is a real economy.

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## dannno

> - Iran citizens discovering them to get around sanctions.


This isn't going to end well.

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## Cowlesy

Wasn't there a reverse split of coins, or stopping of minting them...I thought something happened that ended up goosing the price.

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## dannno

Does anybody watch the Kroll Show on Comedy Central? It's ok, but I've noticed some sublte propaganda - I haven't figured out if they are making fun of government propaganda or if they are an arm for it - but they seemed to be making fun of people who bought bit coins a couple episodes back - in TWO different skits.

Also funny that Kroll is a multinational corporation involved in private security/intelligence and appears to have helped carry out the 9/11 attacks.

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## muh_roads

> Wasn't there a reverse split of coins, or stopping of minting them...I thought something happened that ended up goosing the price.


Halving day happened in October or November.  Only 3600 coins can be mined per day now instead of 7200.

Mining is not an industry I would suggest.  The future of that is unknown in terms of profitability.  Many proponents of Bitcoin don't suggest mining because the more that get involved, the less there is.  Miners getting involved is increasing quite fast.  it's a completely different industry within Bitcoin separate from the economy itself.

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## muh_roads

> This isn't going to end well.


With not much governments can do about it.  Just like they could never stop bit torrent.

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## ZENemy

Also, this:

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## hazek

> Wasn't there a reverse split of coins, or stopping of minting them...I thought something happened that ended up goosing the price.


Yes, the reward for validating the transactions aka mining reward has been halved for the fist time from the initial 50BTC per validated block to 25BTC per validated block meaning that on average instead of 7200BTC per day, there are now only 3600BTC per day being issued. This happened at the end of November and likely took a while to fully translate into a price change due a reduced rate of new supply. And there's a visible growth of the user base and merchant adoption ever sine the also November Wordpress announcement..

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## cubical

I predict bitcoin will end in pain for most.

Whoever was in on the ground floor made a killing. I remember bitcoin collapsed to $.01 last year, though I am not sure whether those trades were busted, there was A LOT of them traded down there. If not, whoever bought at .01 is making a killing.

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## dannno

> I predict bitcoin will end in pain for most.
> 
> Whoever was in on the ground floor made a killing. I remember bitcoin collapsed to $.01 last year, though I am not sure whether those trades were busted, there was A LOT of them traded down there. If not, whoever bought at .01 is making a killing.


Wow, now I know what I'm going to do with a time machine.. You could have bought $100 worth and now have $290k in bitcoin.

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## NoOneButPaul

> This isn't going to end well.


This is why I can't put any money in bitcoins and will still put it in silver instead...

Bitcoins are too perfect, it's a recipe for disaster... at first the powers that be laughed at the idea it would do anything... now it's becoming a force. There might be a lot of money to be made quick but eventually "they'll" come... 

Iranians trading through it, people getting around gambling laws, use on the black market, etc, etc, etc... at some point the gov't will shut it down and cite some mogus bogus legal tender laws and everyone who pays into it will lose big time as "They" send their message about trying to subvert the corrupt, immoral, and unstable fiat dollar system. 

It lacks the anonymity of gold and silver ownership, and is more likely to be confiscated or destroyed.

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## Zippyjuan

Article on Iran and BitCoins from October: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmaton...not-available/




> *As Inflation Rages In Iran, Bitcoin Software Not Available*
> 
> Hyperinflation has hit Iran hard. The government has stepped up censorship of currency exchange websites such as Mesghal.com and Mazanex.com, which had rates blanked out for the rial’s value against other nations’ currencies on Tuesday. Several major foreign airlines announced that they were discontinuing service into Tehran due to the volatility of the Iranian rial and shipping giant Maersk halted all port calls to Iran.
> 
> If severe currency devaluation and disruptive Internet cyber-attacks were not enough, the regular people of Iran have had access blocked to certain open source software sites for downloading applications such as Bitcoin. The 32-month-old blockade hasn’t been instigated by Iran’s mullahs but by the U.S.-led embargo which prohibits certain persons from receiving services via open source hosting sites.
> 
> The original and ‘reference’ Bitcoin client is hosted in the United States on GeekNet’s SourceForge.net who explained their denial of site access policy on their blog:
> 
> “
> ...

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## Zippyjuan

From November:



> *Dollar-Less Iranians Discover Virtual Currency*
> 
> 
> By Max Raskin on November 29, 2012
> Under sanctions imposed by the U.S. and its allies, dollars are hard to come by in Iran. The rial fell from 20,160 against the greenback on the street market in August to 36,500 rials to the dollar in October. Its settled, for now, around 27,000. The central banks fixed official rate is 12,260. Yet theres one currency in Iran that has kept its value and can be used to purchase goods from abroad: bitcoins, the online-only currency. 
> 
> Created in 2009 by a mysterious programmer named Satoshi Nakamoto, bitcoins behave a lot like any currency. Their value is determined by demand, and they can be used to buy stuff. Bitcoin transactions are encrypted and handled by a decentralized global network of tens of thousands of personal computers. Merchants around the world accept the currency, from a bakery in San Francisco to a dentist in Finland. Individuals who own bitcoins and wish to exchange them for physical currencies like euros or dollars can use exchange sites such as localbitcoins.com, a Finland-based site founded by Jeremias Kangas. I believe that bitcoin is, or will be in the future, a very effective tool for individuals who want to avoid sanctions, currency restrictions, and high inflation in countries such as Iran, Kangas wrote in an e-mail.
> 
> The advantage for Iranians is that bitcoins can be swapped for dollars that can then be kept outside the country. Another plus: Regulators cant easily track the transactions, since bitcoins arent issued from a central server. Bitcoin users can conduct business on virtual private networks, which hide customers identities.


More at link.

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## The Gold Standard

> This isn't going to end well.


Nope. Bitcoin holders are aiding terrorists. Luckily we have drones to take care of those problems.

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## ninepointfive

well dang - never invested and could have made a killing.

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## mport1

I wish there was a temporary plunge so I could load up on more...

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## mczerone

> We'll use this thread to track the spot price.  Also here is a fun fact...
> 
> This is how things have been going...Consider this trend, with checkpoints every 5 months:
> 
> 
> A Bitcoin has never been worth less than...
> 
>    Feb-2011                               $0.50
> Jul-2011 (5 months later)          $1
> ...


While it did follow a nice doubling trend, there's more factors that are affecting the doubling-time of the exponential curve. As more vendors (internet and IRL) are accepting bitcoin, more people are demanding bitcoin for internet transactions. As the Silk-Road has been going along without many stories of arrest/entrapment, more people are willing to use that service. As the price has grown, more people are demanding it as an investment. As the dollar devalues, more people who can't find gold/silver that they trust demand it for a store of value. As the mining rate dropped, the growth in supply has slowed. As more people keep bitcoin for investment, the supply for currency shrinks. All these signs point to continued increasing growth rates.

I don't know if there's going to be a massive correction, but I wouldn't be surprised to see faster growth for the next two years as adoption grows. Remember the growth curve of the internet? Bitcoin is at a stage analogous to dialing in manually to a local BBS. There has been no "Bitcoin AOL" yet. There's not a Netscape, there's not a Google.

There might be a crash at some point, but let's look at what causes crashes. ABCT reduces bubbles to the fact that resources have been massively misallocated. Until we're seeing people take out bank loans of FRNs to speculate on the bitcoin based economy or the number of investment opportunities outpace the growth of users, I don't have any worries about relative stability.

What do you trust more: open-source, uncrackable cyptography, or the FRN?

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## oyarde

I may have some bit coins , maybe some Hungarian silver Bellas cut in half , some Spanish Silver Reales, cut....

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## jcannon98188

> I predict bitcoin will end in pain for most.
> 
> Whoever was in on the ground floor made a killing. I remember bitcoin collapsed to $.01 last year, though I am not sure whether those trades were busted, there was A LOT of them traded down there. If not, whoever bought at .01 is making a killing.


Yeah but that was in the middle of a market crash. It happens in real life too. Everyone said bitcoin was going to die then, but it didn't It rebounded just like what happens in a real life recession (atleast until the govt gets involved and screws it all up)

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## Indy Vidual

Bitcoins are an interesting story to follow, and maybe much more.*
*The price movements/speculation are only part of the story.

The (not!) _crash to 0.01_ was from the biggest exchange getting hacked and no real trades were made.
The crash to $2.00 was real, and the newer up trend is now + ~15x / 1500%

I missed out and expected it to stay down longer.

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## hazek

> I predict bitcoin will end in pain for most.
> 
> Whoever was in on the ground floor made a killing. I remember bitcoin collapsed to $.01 last year, though I am not sure whether those trades were busted, there was A LOT of them traded down there. If not, whoever bought at .01 is making a killing.


Get your facts straight please.

What you are talking about happened in June 2011 when the biggest exchange got hacked and a hacker dumped a bunch of bitcoins from a hacked account on it's market causing the price do drop down to less than a penny. These trades were rolled back by the exchange as they were not real trades and the market never believed the price was less than $0.01 and when the exchange reopened the price was $17 and stay around there for a few more days. Then after that it took half a year until November when Bitcoin was deflating the first bubble for the exchange rate to drop down to just a few cents under $2 and since then it has never been lower than that.

All of this can be witnessed here:


You can't even see the hack on this chart because the trades were rolled back, but what you can see is if you look at the bottom just before "Jul" in 2011 you can see a brief period of about 9 days when there is no volume which is the time during which mtgox was closed and after the volume picks up again you can clearly see the price reopen at around $17.

Link to the chart: http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgo...zm1g10zm2g25zv

Zoomed in when the hack happened, the subsequent downtime, and where the price was at reopening:


Link to the chart: http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgo...zm1g10zm2g25zv

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## jclay2

This bitcoin bubble is pure nonsense. There is no fundamental reason for giving bitcoins any value. This will end in tears. Stay away from bitcoin and invest in real assets with actual economic value (not some made up currency).

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## Aeroneous

> invest in real assets with actual economic value (not some made up currency).


Economic value is derived from the various forms of utility received.  So.. as long as people have a desire to acquire any type of item, the item has economic value.

And what currency isn't made up?  Someone, at some point, found some gold and said, "Hey let's use this for trade."  Governments around the world have just "made up" their currencies.  I'm no Bitcoin expert, but from the stories I've read on RPF it appears to be a reasonable asset which is perfectly demonstrating economic principle.  The only difference between Bitcoin and silver/gold/etc., is that Bitcoin has apparently created its own scarcity limitations.  That is a little bit shady to me, because I think there is too much opportunity to manipulate the currency.  At the same time I suppose it's no different than stocks which can be split at any time.

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## hazek

> There is no fundamental reason for giving bitcoins any value.


No, you have that wrong. Just because you don't see a reason for giving bitcoins any value doesn't mean other people don't. If you aren't just trolling and are honestly curious why some people clearly do see value in them, may I invite you to read this: Wrapping your head around Bitcoin (a guide ~10min reading time)

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## ronpaulfollower999

> This bitcoin bubble is pure nonsense. There is no fundamental reason for giving bitcoins any value. This will end in tears. Stay away from bitcoin and invest in real assets with actual economic value (not some made up currency).


As long as there is a buyer and a seller, bitcoins will always have some type of value. I think the Reddit news was huge, and I wouldn't be surprised to see bitcoin adaption spread like wildfire.

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## Seraphim

You either do not like free markets or you misunderstand that value is subjective.

Given the choice between digi dollars backed by a gun (fiat legal tender) and digi dollars backed by a market, I chose the latter every time.

Market oriented currencies have been around for...I don't know...as long as man?

Bitcoin is a modernized version of human inginuity. To call it "pure nonsense" is arrogant.

I do NOT own any Bitcoin. None. Yet I see little reason, save for violence from the government, that Bitcoin will not stick around.

When a MARKET of individuals chose something (with strong hands, mind you)...it is very difficult to displace this subjective value. 




> This bitcoin bubble is pure nonsense. There is no fundamental reason for giving bitcoins any value. This will end in tears. Stay away from bitcoin and invest in real assets with actual economic value (not some made up currency).

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## Seraphim

Further more, annonimity, privacy and convinience ARE commodities of very real value.

Bitcoin offers this.





> This bitcoin bubble is pure nonsense. There is no fundamental reason for giving bitcoins any value. This will end in tears. Stay away from bitcoin and invest in real assets with actual economic value (not some made up currency).

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## ninepointfive

follow the silky brick road

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## jclay2

> Further more, annonimity, privacy and convinience ARE commodities of very real value.
> 
> Bitcoin offers this.


Why would I trade physical assets like gold for bitcoin?

Edit: To me, this currency has no intrinsic value and just seems like one gigantic group think ponzi.

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## hazek

> Why would I trade physical assets like gold for bitcoin?
> 
> Edit: To me, this currency has no intrinsic value and just seems like one gigantic group think ponzi.


The questions isn't why you would, the question you should be asking is why others do.

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## Seraphim

I prefer gold/silver to Bitcoin as well.

But I prefer Bitcoin to the USD/CAD/YEN/EURO.

The very same mechanism that allows for gold to hold value applies for Bitcoin - willingness of the buyer/seller dynamic.

If people refuse to except gold, gold is worthless. I'm not saying that will happen...but it's true nonetheless.

Also, it's not a ponzi scheme...AT ALL. You need to learn what a ponzi scheme is before you throw the label around.




> Why would I trade physical assets like gold for bitcoin?
> 
> Edit: To me, this currency has no intrinsic value and just seems like one gigantic group think ponzi.

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## mczerone

> Why would I trade physical assets like gold for bitcoin?
> 
> Edit: To me, this currency has no intrinsic value and just seems like one gigantic group think ponzi.


Nothing has intrinsic value. You place value on things based on you subjective needs. A peanut butter sandwich might have immense value to one starving man, but might have no value to another starving man who is allergic to peanuts.

If you don't like bitcoins, you don't have to buy any. But don't be surprised if you can't sell your silver and gold when TSHTF because nobody values shiny rocks that must be physically stored, secrured, and transported.

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## Seraphim

Yes.




> Nothing has intrinsic value. You place value on things based on you subjective needs. A peanut butter sandwich might have immense value to one starving man, but might have no value to another starving man who is allergic to peanuts.
> 
> If you don't like bitcoins, you don't have to buy any. But don't be surprised if you can't sell your silver and gold when TSHTF because nobody values shiny rocks that must be physically stored, secrured, and transported.

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## ninepointfive

i want a gold asteroid to strike the earth in my backyard. like 5 pounds worth

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## fatjohn

Seems to me they issued to few bitcoins. Not that its a fundamental flaw but if this becomes an alternative currency with the total value of all bitcoins being equal to one tenth of all the dollars right now, then you would have a bitcoin value of 30,000 $ or so.

"Here have a bread, it cost 0.000038 bitcoins."
"Jackpot! I just made a killing of 0.006 bitcoins in roulette! Drinks are on me boys."

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## ninepointfive

> Seems to me they issued to few bitcoins. Not that its a fundamental flaw but if this becomes an alternative currency with the total value of all bitcoins being equal to one tenth of all the dollars right now, then you would have a bitcoin value of 30,000 $ or so.
> 
> "Here have a bread, it cost 0.000038 bitcoins."
> "Jackpot! I just made a killing of 0.006 bitcoins in roulette! Drinks are on me boys."


there's a "halving day" where they double the market? I think that's what happens. Hazek?

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## hazek

> Nothing has intrinsic value. You place value on things based on you subjective needs. A peanut butter sandwich might have immense value to one starving man, but might have no value to another starving man who is allergic to peanuts.
> 
> If you don't like bitcoins, you don't have to buy any. But don't be surprised if you can't sell your silver and gold when TSHTF because nobody values shiny rocks that must be physically stored, secrured, and transported.


Exactly.

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## hazek

> Seems to me they issued to few bitcoins. Not that its a fundamental flaw but if this becomes an alternative currency with the total value of all bitcoins being equal to one tenth of all the dollars right now, then you would have a bitcoin value of 30,000 $ or so.
> 
> "Here have a bread, it cost 0.000038 bitcoins."
> "Jackpot! I just made a killing of 0.006 bitcoins in roulette! Drinks are on me boys."


The client already anticipates this with a built in option to display your bitcoins in mili bitcoins or micro bitcoins. Btw even the current display which amounts to 21million max units is just cosmetics, in reality there will be 2.1 quadrillion units, it's just that right now it makes sense to display the decimal place at 8 places to the left. So what you highlighted is a non issue.

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## hazek

> there's a "halving day" where they double the market? I think that's what happens. Hazek?


I think he means the reward for validating transactions which started out as 50BTC per validated block and is halved every 4 years until it will reach 0. The first halving happened at the end of last November.

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## Indy Vidual

> Get your facts straight please.
> 
> ...Then after that it took half a year until November when Bitcoin was deflating the first bubble for the exchange rate to drop down to just a few cents under $2...


~ $1.9996 would be much more exact, if my memory is correct.
Get your facts straight please.  
/half joking

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## Indy Vidual

> Economic value is derived from the various forms of utility received.  So.. as long as people have a desire to acquire any type of item, the item has economic value.
> 
> And what currency isn't made up?  Someone, at some point, found some gold and said, "Hey let's use this for trade."  Governments around the world have just "made up" their currencies.  I'm no Bitcoin expert, but from the stories I've read on RPF it appears to be a reasonable asset which is perfectly demonstrating economic principle.  The only difference between Bitcoin and silver/gold/etc., is that Bitcoin has apparently created its own scarcity limitations.  That is a little bit shady to me, because I think there is too much opportunity to manipulate the currency.  At the same time I suppose it's no different than stocks which can be split at any time.


+ $29.95





> As long as there is a buyer and a seller, bitcoins will always have some type of value. I think the Reddit news was huge, and I wouldn't be surprised to see bitcoin adaption spread like wildfire.


Get in *now*, before it's too late!

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## hazek

> + $29.95
> 
> Get in *now*, before it's too late!


I don't now.. right now it's quite dicey.. who knows, we may break $30 and go further up or we may crash down to $20.. or even lower in the short term.

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## VoluntaryAmerican

BitCoin is King?

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## Indy Vidual

> I don't now.. right now it's quite dicey.. who knows, we may break $30 and go further up or we may crash down to $20.. or even lower in the short term.


True, some _quiet time_ around $16 to $20 might be healthy to end the "bubble think" and build the real economy.

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## jclay2

I like the attributes of bitcoin, but would like something physical behind it. Is this possible within some bitcoin framework? If there was a way to issue a gold backed bitcoin or something like that, it would be game/set/match.

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## hazek

> I like the attributes of bitcoin, but would like something physical behind it. Is this possible within some bitcoin framework? If there was a way to issue a gold backed bitcoin or something like that, it would be game/set/match.


I don't understand how in this day and age you can be so fixated on something needing to be physical? Because you say physical but what you really mean is governed by laws of chemistry meaning you want something the rules of which can't be changed by any man or a group of people. Well that's what Bitcoin already is, it's just that instead of the laws of chemistry it's governed by the laws of math.

Bitcoin is a first of it's kind technology that manages to turn inexpensive and abundant information into scarce and valuable information. You don't need it to be physical in the traditional sense in order to have the properties that you seek in something that is a good store of value. That's the revolutionary thing that was created here and it pains me that it is so hard to communicate.

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## jclay2

> I don't understand how in this day and age you can be so fixated on something needing to be physical? Because you say physical but what you really mean is governed by laws of chemistry meaning you want something the rules of which can't be changed by any man or a group of people. Well that's what Bitcoin already is, it's just that instead of the laws of chemistry it's governed by the laws of math.
> 
> Bitcoin is a first of it's kind technology that manages to turn inexpensive and abundant information into scarce and valuable information. You don't need it to be physical in the traditional sense in order to have the properties that you seek in something that is a good store of value. That's the revolutionary thing that was created here and it pains me that it is so hard to communicate.


I understand that bitcoin has attributes of gold and other mediums of exchange, but when push comes to shove its a bunch of 0's and 1's that was created from a little computer processing. Bitcoin is only valued as a medium of exchange. Gold was valued by itself before it became a medium of exchange. Like $'s, bitcoins only have value as a medium of exchange.

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## Icymudpuppy

Who holds the bank accounts for bitcoin?

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## Indy Vidual

> Who holds the bank accounts for bitcoin?


No one.
_Bitcoin uses peer-to-peer technology to operate with no central authority..._

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## hazek

> Who holds the bank accounts for bitcoin?


What bank accounts?  There are no bank accounts in Bitcoin. There are Bitcoin addresses and their corresponding private keys. When you own bitcoins they must be tied to a specific Bitcoin address and who ever has the private key can spend them, that's all.

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## Icymudpuppy

> What bank accounts?  There are no bank accounts in Bitcoin. There are Bitcoin addresses and their corresponding private keys. When you own bitcoins they must be tied to a specific Bitcoin address and who ever has the private key can spend them, that's all.


Interesting.  Who accepts them?

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## hazek

> Interesting.  Who accepts them?


Many many many people. I mean there are no records of who accepts them so it's hard to say, but a few of the big shops that I know of are:
www.bitcoinstore.com (electronics shop with over 500.000 items)
www.bitcoinin.com
www.coindl.com
www.bitmit.net
www.coinabul.com 
www.reddit.com (for reddit gold)
www.wordpress.com (for premium services)
www.hosting.co.uk (big hosting provider)


And here's two lists with way more:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade
https://www.spendbitcoins.com/places/

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## kpitcher

I'm glad to see bitcoin growing. Not only because I have some but for the sheer concept of it. It is as market driven as possible. Transparent open exchanges that anyone can use. Transfer FRN to bitcoin, bitcoin to FRN, all at silly low exchange rates that make wiring money seem outrageously expensive.  Bitcoins are as close to using cash online as possible. Without the downside of the FED printing a few trillion more to devalue your current holdings.

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