# Lifestyles & Discussion > Peace Through Religion >  A Thread on Angels

## TER

*This thread is for discussions on angels, in theology, art, literature, etc.  Please feel free to contribute!*


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.On the Creation of the Angels 


By St. Nektarios of Aegina
*1. Did God create, apart from the creation of the sensible cosmos and the creation of man, any other rational beings?*

Yes. He did. God created another super sensible and spiritual world, and other intelligent beings, reason-endowed and self-determined.


*2. Whence do we know about the super sensible cosmos?*

We know from the Scriptures of the Old and the New Testament of the existence of the Angels.


*3. Where does the Old Testament refer to the existence of Angels?*

a) The first reference occurs in Gen. 16:78, etc., where it relates, that an Angel appeared to Hagar, but thenceforth Angels are mentioned in several chapters of the book of Genesis. 


b) Then, there are references to Angels in the book of Deuteronomy, where Moses states, that when the Most High separated nations as he dispersed the sons of Adam, He placed boundaries for nations according to the numbers of the Angels of God (Deut. 32:8-9).


c) Likewise, Angels are mentioned in all the books of the Holy Scripture and in the book of Job, where we read: Behold the Angels of the Lord came to stand before the Lord; and the devil came with them (Job 1:6). There too we read, that when stars were made, all my Angels praised me with a loud voice (Job 38:7, cf. 40:14). Similar references are also in the book of the Kings, of Numbers, etc.[14]


*4. Where does the New Testament refer to the creation of the super sensible cosmos?*

There are many places in the New Testament which refer to angels, or good spirits, as well as evil angels, i.e. devils and evil spirits. In regard to the creation of angels the Apostle Paul relates the following: that in Him [the Son of God] all things were created, things in heaven and things on earth, whether visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, whether principalities or authorities; all things were made for Him and to Him (Col. 1:16).


*5. Why are angels called spirits?*

They are called so because of their spiritual nature and because they are immaterial and incorporeal. 


*6. Where in Holy Scripture do we read about the incorporeal nature of the angels?*

Luke the Evangelist relates the following: Touch me and see for spirits do not have flesh and bones as you see me having (24:39). Also the Apostle Paul, admonishing the Ephesians to put on the whole armor of God so that they might withstanding the scheming of the devil, says that the "fight is not against blood and flesh, but against the principalities and authorities, the cosmic rulers of the darkness of the present age, the spiritual beings of evil in the heavenly places (Eph. 6:12-13).


*7. What do the Fathers of the Church say about the spiritual nature of the angels?*

The Fathers of the Church say that the angels do not participate in solid earthly mater. This opinion of the Fathers was also formulated at the Seventh Ecumenical Council at Nicaea in the following way: These precious and sacred icons, as it was already said, we honor and kiss and venerate as a matter of attributing honor to the holy and incorporeal angels (See the relevant Canon). St. Basil attributes to angels a body that is ethereal and fiery. In chapter 16 of his treatise On the Holy Spirit he says: For the angels have a very fine body, and are not totally incorporeal, as God is; hence they are in a place, and they become visible to those who are worthy according to the species of their own bodies. St. Gregory the Theologian and John of Damascus regard the angels as incorporeal beings in relation to humanity: an angel is called immaterial in contrast to us; for whatever is compared to God who alone is incomparable, is found to be solid and material; for indeed, only the divine being is immaterial and incorporeal.[15] The divine Hilary says that every created being is by necessity corporeal.[16] Origen too, took the Angels as having ethereal bodies[17] and so did many other Fathers.[18]


*8. Were the Angels liable to sin?*

Yes indeed; because every rational and morally free creation that freely chooses the good is liable to sin; consequently, the angels too. John Damascene says: there is also a nature [that of the angels] which is rational, mindful and freely-determined, changeable with respect to choice, i.e. free to change; for everything created is also changeable.[19]


*9. What does Scripture say about this?*

Holy Scripture says that some of the angelic orders fell into sin. The Apostle Jude says: and the angels that did not keep their own rule, but left their proper dwelling, have been kept by Him in a dark place with eternal chains to be judged on the great day (Jude 6). Also, our Lord Jesus Christ says that He saw Satan[20] falling from heaven like lightening (Luke 4:18).


*10. How are the angels called who did keep their own rule?*

They are called good spirits, in contrast to those that did not do so and are called devils.


*11. Are the good angels liable anymore to fall into sin?*

No; because their persistence in love for God and communion, and their free proclivity and choice have become, as it were, a natural and moral necessity, and so they do not decide for anything else but for the good, which is God Himself, who sanctifies them and preserves them in a state of eternal goodness; hence their being rendered unchangeable. Dionysius the Areopagite says: The angels, not being inclined to move toward evil, but not being motionless, have become totally motionless after the resurrection of Christ not by nature but by grace, for immutability would be to them salvation, since they would no longer fear the change into what is worse and the loss that is thereby incurred. So the Angels have now received the ability to remain unchangeable, having practically learned from the Master the way of salvation and exaltation and assimilation to Him, not by way of pride or conceitedness but of humility or soberness.


*12. Are the evil spirits anymore able to return to God?*

No! Firstly because their will has been identified with evil and, as a result, they always choose evil; secondly, because they became and have continued to be enemies to God; and thirdly, because they divorced themselves from God, and to be separated from God is eternal death. Indeed, what is death to the sinner is identical with the fall of the evil angels from their rule.


*13. How many are the angelic orders, that is, the orders of the heavenly Hierarchy?*

The angelic orders are nine, and are divided into three triadic arrangements. The first triad into: Seraphim, Cherubim and Thrones; the second triad into: Dominions, Powers and Authorities; and the third triad into: Principalities, Archangels and Angels.


*14. What do the Scriptures say about the number of the Angels?*

The Scriptures say, that the number of the Angels is very great: thousands of thousands, and myriads of myriads (Dan. 7:10), more than ten legions of Angels (Matth. 6:33), a multitude of heavenly armies (Luke 2:13) and myriads of Angels (Heb. 12:22).


*15. What do the Scriptures say about the power of the Angels?*

They say that it is supreme and operates in the spiritual and material cosmos; hence their being called in Scripture mighty angels and excelling in might (II Thess. 1:7, Ps. 103:20 and II Kings 19:35).


*16. What are the occupations of the Angels?*

They see the face of God and worship Him, and they also minister to the decisions of Divine Providence (Matt. 18:10, Rev. 5:11, I Pet. 1:12, Gen. 28:12, Acts 12:7,23, Ps. 91:10-12, II Kings 19:35, I Chronicles 16, Matt. 13:30-39 and 25:17).


*17. Are the Angels immortal by nature?*

No. They are such by grace, because they are creatures of God. John Damascene says, an angel is a mindful being that is immortal not by nature, but by grace; because whatever being has a beginning also has an end by nature; and only God who is everlasting and transcends all everlastingness, etc., is immortal.[21]


*18. What are the different meanings that the term angel has in Scripture?*

It means Common Envoys (Job 1:14, Luke 7:24, 9:52), Prophets (Is. 42:19, Mal. 3:1), Priests (Mal. 2:7), sacred preachers of the New Covenant (Rev. 1:20), Impersonal Agencies as, for instance, a pillar of cloud (Ex. 14:9), a Plague (II Sam. 24:16,17), Winds (Ps. 104:4), Pestilence is a name give to the evil angels (Ps. 78:49), a thorn in the flesh of Paul, an angel of Satan (II Cor. 12:7), the second Person of the Holy Trinity is: an Angel before Him or an Angel of the Covenant (Is. 63:9, Mal. 3:1). But the word is applied to the heavenly rational beings (Matt. 25: 31).


*19. What are the Cherubim?*

They are some ideal beings, consisting of four parts, i.e. of man, ox, lion and eagle; the superior face was that of man, but the number of the faces, feet and hands differed according to circumstances (Ezek. 1:6; cf. Ezek. 41:18-19, and Ex. 25:20).


*20. What is the etymology of the word Seraphim and what do the Scriptures teach about them?*

The word Seraphim denotes something that burns, or glitters, or dazzles, and it appears in Scripture only once (Is. 6:2, 6).


*21. Is there any proof that angels belong to different classes?*

Yes indeed; 1) from the language of Scripture; Gabriel is distinguished by the fact that he stands before God (Luke 1:19) in some kind of lofty sense; and Michael is referred to as being one of the first archons (Dan. 10:13). In addition, the adjectives: archangels, thrones, principalities, dominions, powers (Jude 9 and Eph. 1:21) bear witness to a variety of classes.


Notes:


[14] Moses does not mention the creation of the Angels in Genesis in the chapters relating to the creation of the cosmos, because his purpose was to teach about the creation of the visible world (See Chrysostom, Ps. 8:4, Iobios the Monk in Photios Bibliotheca Codex 222, p. 591). Athanasius (question 4) says: that he might not provide an excuse to the Jews for idolatry (See Theodoret, question 2 in Difficulties in Genesis and Chrysostom On Genesis Hom. 1). In regard to the time of the creation of the Angels the opinions of the theologians differ. Origen regards the creation of the Angels to have preceded the creation of man and of the sensible cosmos. Gregory the Theologian, Basil the Great, John Chrysostom, John Damascene and other Fathers teach that Angels were created before the visible creatures. Theodoret holds that they were created on the first day, when, that is, God created heaven and earth according to the first verse of the first chapter. St. Epiphanius also agrees with this view. From Job 38:1 the conclusion is drawn that on the fourth day there were Angels around; because the Lord says to Job: When the stars were made, all my Angels praised me with a very loud voice. The distinction of various orders among the numerous angels (Dan. 7:10, Matth. 26:53, Luke 2:13, Heb. 12:22, Rev. 5:11) is acknowledged, apart from the Fathers (Clement of Romes 6:1, 6:16, 7:2, Cyril of Jerusalems Catechisms 6:6, 7:11, 11:11, 17:23, Gregory the Theologians Oration 34, Damascenes Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith II:3, and especially Dionysios the Areopagites Heavenly Hierarchy 6 and others) by Holy Scripture itself, which distinguishes: Angels (I Pet. 3:22ff), Archangels (I Thess. 10:16, Jude 9), Cherubim (Gen. 3:24, Rev. 4, 5, 6), Seraphim (Is. 6:2,1), Powers (Eph. 1:21, Rom. 8:31), Thrones, Principalities, Authorities and Dominions (Eph. 1:21, Col. 1:16, Rom. 8:31, Dan. 10:13); and so the Fifth Ecumenical Synod condemned Origen who said among other things, that all the angels were of the same nature and power and only after some of them rebelled were they separated into orders (See Fifth Ecumenical Synod, canons 2 and 14). See also Dan. 7:10, Ps. 96:1, 102:20, 148:2, Rev. 4:1, 7:11-12, Basil the Greats On Psalm 27, On Isaiah 6, Gregory the Theologian's Oration 34, Theodorets Epitome of the Divine Dogmas 7, John Damascenes Exact Exposition 2:10. Ps. 101:20. 


[15] Damascene, Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, II:18.


[16] On Matthew, ch. 2.


[17] On First Principles, I:7 and II.


[18] See The Rudder of St. Nikodemos, p. 131, note 1.


[19] Damascene, Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, II:18.


[20] Satan means enemy, that is, enemy of God and of human beings, of goodness and every virtue, and source of every evil in the world. The word Satan appears five times in the Old Testament. I Chronicles 21, Job 1, Zachariah 3. In the New Testament there are 25 references where the word devil is used in the same sense.


[21] Damascene, Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, II:16.

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## TER

*On the Angelic Orders and their Role* 




By Protopresbyter Fr. George Papavarnavas
Angels were created before the visible world and man. As Saint Gregory Palamas characteristically says, God "formed the angels before us on our behalf to be sent as ministers, as Paul says, to those who will inherit salvation in the future."


According to Orthodox theology, as summarized in the teachings of Saint John of Damascus, angels are spiritual beings, ever-moving, free, bodiless, who serve God and are by grace immortal. The form and condition of these beings, only God knows. But the angels are bodiless and ever-moving in their relation to man. 


Compared to God, the only bodiless One, they move with difficulty and are material. They are formed out of fine material. Only God is truly immaterial and incorporeal. They have no need of language and hearing, but they exchange between one another their personal thoughts and decisions without the spoken word. When communicating with people, then they take a shape and form to be seen by them. They are viewed as bright and their clothing is usually white, which indicates their purity. Their food is the vision of God, Whom they see, to the extent of their ability.


Angels and Archangels preserve parts of the earth, are rulers of peoples and countries, as the Creator has ordered. They arrange human affairs and protect all those who call upon them, primarily from the hatred and fury of the devil. "Wherever your grace overshadows, Archangel, thence the devil is banished by force, for fallen Lucifer cannot bear to stand before thy light...." (Doxastikon of the Praises, Nov. 8th).


In every Divine Liturgy, which is a Synaxis of heaven and earth, the Angels concelebrate with the Bishop or Priest. During the Small Entrance, the Liturgist asks the Lord to send Angels to concelebrate with him and glorify with him the goodness of God. The Deacon, also, prays: "An angel of peace, a faithful guide, a guardian of our souls and bodies, let us ask of the Lord."


"Nine are the heavenly orders, and three offices or three groups consist of a triad."


The first triad are those who are always around God and are ready to unite with Him immediately, without the intervention of anyone. These are the orders of the six-winged Seraphim, the many-eyed Cherubim and the most-holy Thrones. 


The second group are the Dominions, the Powers and the Authorities. Their work is to arrange great things, such as miraculous actions and the Thrice-Holy Hymn of Holy, Holy, Holy. 


The third, and last, group are that of the Rulers and Archangels and Angels, whose characteristic feature is to "serve in the liturgy and end the sacred hymn of Alleluia."


From the moment we left the womb of the Church, the font of Baptism, there stands by us an angel, who is the guardian of our souls and bodies. He does not leave us unless we turn him away by our sins. That which brings him back is true repentance. The angels rejoice and celebrate when someone repents sincerely.


At the end of the Small Compline, a solemn service we all need to read every night, there is a wonderful prayer to our guardian angel.


Father Paisios would say that we need to gain the friendship of the saints and angels, especially the saint whose name we bear and our guardian angel. This can take place through our organic joining with the spiritual atmosphere of the Church, with unceasing prayer, the sacramental life and asceticism, namely our living the commandments of Christ.

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## TER

Elder Iakovos Guided By the Wing of an Angel 


People are blind and dont see what takes place in church during the Divine Liturgy. Once I was serving and I couldnt make the Great Entrance because of what I saw. I suddenly felt someone pushing me by my shoulder and guiding me toward the holy prothesis. I thought it was the chanter, and said to myself: "The blessed one, such irreverence? He entered through the Beautiful Gate and is pushing me?" I turned around and saw a huge wing that the archangel had laid on my shoulder, and that he was guiding me to make the Great Entrance. What amazing things take place in the altar during the Divine Liturgy! Sometimes I cant handle it, and so I pass out in a chair, and thus some concelebrators conclude that Ive got something wrong with my health, but they dont realize what I see and hear. What wings on those angels, my child!

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## TER

The Thoughts of Angels Compared With the Thoughts of Men 
"The angelic hosts are not enslaved by their thoughts, or by the things of this world. They gaze upon created things, but their thoughts do not become enslaved by them; for the center of their thoughts is in servitude only to the power of God, through which they love all creation. As for us, when we see an object that attracts us, we immediately become attached to it. This is terrible and it is also deadly. If this lasts for a length of time, then this object becomes our idol. An object takes the place in our heart that belongs to God - no matter whether it is an inanimate object, a living thing, or a person."

- Elder Thaddeus of Serbia (+2002)

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## TER

*Synaxis of the Heavenly Bodiless Angelic Powers* 



By St. Dimitri Rostov
Tthe Holy Church, which rejects the impious worship of angels devised by idolaters and heretics of old, has received from the divinely inspired Fathers the tradition of celebrating with reverence the Synaxis of the Holy Angels. In the days of the Old Testament, the people of God, having fallen away from their Creator, began to worship that which the Lord created. They made idols after the likeness of things visible, of that which is in heaven above and earth beneath, the work of their own hands. At that time, when the people offered oblations unto the sun, the moon, and the stars as gods, imagining that these possessed living souls, they also began to worship angels. The Book of Kings makes mention of this, saying that they "burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the twelve signs of the Zodiac, and to all the host of heaven," that is, to the angels; for the host of heaven is comprised of the angels, as is said in the Gospel: "And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host."

This impious worship of the angels spread through many lands in the days of the holy apostles. The holy Apostle Paul sought to root it out when he wrote to the Colossians, saying, "Let no man beguile you in voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding the Head," which is Christ; for there were at that time certain heretics who made a show of humility but proudly imagined that they were like the angels because of their abstinence and the purity of their lives. These men taught that angels were to be worshipped in the same manner as God. After this, there arose other heretics who taught that the angels were the makers of the visible creation and that they are more honorable and exalted than Christ, the Son of God, since they are bodiless.These heretics called the Archangel Michael the God of the Hebrews. Finally, still others appeared, who devoted themselves to sorcery and deceived the people, calling upon the demons whom they served under the name of angels. This heresy grew especially strong in Colossae, a city under the jurisdiction of the metropolitan see of Laodicea, where many secretly worshipped the angels in an impious manner akin to idolatry. The local council of the holy fathers that met at Laodicea denounced this heresy, but while it anathematized and rejected the heretical worship of angels, it decreed lawful the pious and proper veneration of the holy angels as Gods servants and the guardians of the race of man, establishing the celebration of the festival held in their honor on this day. Thus it was in Colossae, where the evil and heretical worship of the angels had once appeared in secret, that the Orthodox first began to celebrate the feast of the Synaxis of the Angels. Many splendid temples dedicated to the holy Archangel Michael were built there, such as the most glorious and wondrous church erected in Chonae over the wonder-working spring where the holy Chief Commander Michael appeared to Saint Archippus. The council decreed that the feast of the angels be celebrated in November, the ninth month counting from March, when the world was created, since there are nine orders of angels, according to Saint Dionysius the Areopagite, the disciple of the holy Apostle Paul. Saint Paul was taken up to the third heaven, where he saw how the holy angels are divided into ranks, and he told his disciple of this. These nine ranks are grouped in three hierarchies of three orders: the highest, the middle, and the lowest.


The highest hierarchy of angels, which is the nearest to the Most Holy Trinity, consists of the seraphim, the cherubim, and the thrones. Closest of all to the Creator and Fashioner stand the seraphim, beloved of God, of whom Isaiah said, "Seraphs stood round about Him: each one had six wings." They are like fire, because they stand nearest to Him of Whom it is written: "Our God is a consuming fire, and His throne is like a fiery flame, and The sight of the glory of the Lord was like a devouring fire." Since they stand before such fiery glory, the seraphim are themselves fiery, as it is written: "He maketh His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire." They burn with love for God and kindle the love of God in others, as their name itself reveals, for in the Hebrew tongue "seraphim" means "burning" or "consuming."

The divinely wise cherubim stand next after the seraphim in the presence of God the All-knowing, Who dwells in transcendent light. These angels, who abide in Gods ineffable light, themselves ever shine more brilliantly than the orders below them with the light of righteousness and the knowledge of God and His wisdom. They are themselves radiant and illumine others; therefore, they are called cherubim, which in Hebrew means "much wisdom," or "an effusion of wisdom." Through the cherubim wisdom is poured out, and through them the noetic eyes of others are illumined, enabling them to see the glory of God and to know Him.

The thrones stand after the cherubim before the exalted throne on high. They are called God-bearing by Saint Dionysius, since, according to the explanation offered by Saint Maximus the Confessor, God noetically rests upon them as upon noetic thrones. Saint Basil writes that they are called God-bearing not according to their essence but because of the grace vouchsafed them and the service entrusted to them. The flesh of Christ the Lord, however, is God-bearing by essence, hypostatically joined with God the Word Himself. Christs flesh bears God the Word in an undivided union and is called, and ever remains, His true and living flesh, but the thrones are called God-bearing because they bear God within themselves in an ineffable and inexpressible manner, not by nature but because of the grace and service entrusted to them. Seated upon them in a way that cannot be described, God ordains His judgments, as David said: "Thou hast sat upon a throne, 0 Thou that judgest righteousness." Therefore, it is through the thrones that God brings to pass His righteous judgments, for they are the ministers of His justice, imparting to the tribunals of magistrates here below, and to kings and lords, the ability to pass righteous judgment.

There are three ranks in the middle hierarchy of the holy angels as well: dominions, powers, and virtues. The dominions are so called because they rule over the angels subject to them, while they are themselves free, since, as Saint Dionysius says, they have set aside servile fear and ever serve the Lord willingly and gladly. They pour down upon the authorities ordained by God here below power to rule wisely and to exercise dominion judiciously, governing well the lands entrusted to them. They also teach us to rule over our senses, to subdue our disorderly lusts and passions, to subject the flesh to the spirit, to exercise authority over our will, and to prevail over every temptation.

The powers, full of divine might, serve the mighty and powerful will of the all-powerful and omnipotent Lord without hesitation or delay. They work exceedingly great marvels and impart the grace to perform similar miracles upon those of Gods favorites who have been deemed worthy to work wonders, to heal every illness, and to foretell the future. Likewise, the holy powers strengthen men as they labor and are heavy laden in bearing the yoke of their various burdens, strengthening them to fulfill the obligations of their station in life and helping the feeble in their weakness. They assist every man to be patient and not to weaken in trials, but to endure everything that comes to pass with nobility of soul and resolute courage, humbly giving thanks to God, Who orders all things for our benefit.

The virtues bear their name because they have authority over the devil. They subdue the power of the demons and ward off the temptations which the spirits of evil bring upon men, and they forbid the demons to harm men as they desire. The virtues confirm those who labor for virtues sake in their spiritual undertakings and struggles, protecting them, lest they be deprived of the spiritual kingdom. Those who war with their passions and desires the virtues help in the day of battle, assisting them in dispelling every wicked thought and the enemys calumny and in overcoming the devil.

The three orders in the lowest hierarchy are the principalities, archangels, and angels. The principalities are so called because they rule over the angels below them and direct them to fulfill Gods commands. It is they who watch over the world, protecting and guarding every kingdom and principality, every province and people, tribe and nation, for each of these has its own angel of this rank as guardian and governor. According to Saint Gregory, it is the duty of this order to teach men to render to all in authority the honor due their station. These angels usher worthy men into such positions as they merit and instruct them not to use their offices for their own gain or profit, nor to become vainglorious or full of conceit, but to honor God, to increase His glory and to spread word of it, for the benefit of all those under their authority.



The archangels are the great messengers of good, eminent, and wondrous tidings. According to the renowned Dionysius, it is they who deliver prophecies to men, enlightening them so that they may know and understand the will of God. They learn of Gods will from the higher ranks and entrust the secrets thereof to the angels below them, who in turn declare them to men. Saint Gregory the Dialogist says that they spread abroad the faith among men, illuminating their minds with the light of the knowledge of the Holy Gospel and revealing to them the mysteries of the Orthodox faith.

The angels occupy the lowest position in the hierarchy of heaven and are the closest of its ranks to men. They reveal the lesser mysteries of God and His intentions to men, whom they guide to live virtuously and righteously. Each of the faithful is entrusted to one of them. They support those of us who stand firm, and they raise up the fallen. Even if we sin, they do not forsake us but are always ready to help us, if only we desire it.

Nevertheless, the name angel is proper to the higher ranks of heaven, for even if each has its own place and position and its own name which accords with the manner of grace bestowed upon it, that is to say, seraphim, cherubim, throne, and so forth, they are still all called angels; for in this sense the name refers not to what they are in essence but to the manner of service they perform. All of them alike are angels, since they fulfill Gods commands, as it is written: "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister?" Each order has its own ministry, and their ministrations differ, because the wise Creator does not reveal the mysteries of His divine will to each rank equally. He manifests His sacred will to the lower orders through the higher and through the latter commands the former to fulfill the dictates of His will, as may plainly be seen in the book of the Prophet Zechariah. This book tells how, after a certain angel had spoken with the prophet, that angel met another angel, who commanded him to return to the prophet and to reveal to him the future of Jerusalem. Thus it is written, "Behold, the angel that talked with me went forth, and another angel went out to meet him, and said unto him, Run, speak to this young man," (that is, to the prophet Zechariah) "saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as a town withoutwalls for the multitude of men and cattle therein, for I, saith the Lord, will be unto her a wall of fire round about." Saint Gregory expounds, "When one angel says to the other, Run, speak to this young man, there can be no doubt that certain angels dispatch others here and there and that the lower ranks are sent while it is the higher orders that send them." Similarly, we find in the prophecy of Daniel that one angel tells another to explain to the prophet the vision which he saw. Therefore, it is clear that the lower ranks of angels learn of the will and intentions of the divine Creator from the higher orders and are sent by the latter to do His desire.

It is fitting that the Orthodox Church here below should celebrate the synaxis and seek the aid of all nine orders of the holy angels on the eighth day of this month of November, sending up fervent entreaty unto them; for on the fearful day of judgment, which the divine teachers of the Church call the eighth day, when He Who is the Son of Man and God, the righteous Judge, "shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him," as the Lord Himself prophesied in the Holy Gospel, all the ranks of angels shall be gathered together. "He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds" that is, from the east, the west, the north, and the south. May the Lord then summon us, who reverently celebrate the Synaxis of the Angels, into the choir of the chosen!

The holy Chief Commander Michael, the faithful servant of the Lord, was appointed by God as general and commander over the entire assembly of the nine angelic orders. When Satan exalted himself in pride, fell away from God into perdition, and was cast into the abyss, Michael called together all the ranks and hosts of angels and cried out with a mighty voice, "Let us attend! Stand aright before Him Who created us, and do not consider doing what is not pleasing to God. Behold what has befallen those created with us, who until now were communicants of the divine light! Behold how they were straightway exiled from light into darkness because of pride, cast from the heights into the abyss! Behold how the morning star, which lit up the dawn, has fallen to earth and been crushed!"

When Michael, who stood foremost among the seraphim, the cherubim, and all the ranks of heaven, said this to the entire assembly of the angels, they glorified the most holy and undivided Trinity, one in essence, the one God; and together they chanted the triumphal hymn: "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God of Sabaoth, heaven and earth are full of Thy glory!"

It is this assembly of the holy angels that we venerate on the present feast of the Synaxis of the Angels; for they ever glorify the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit attentively and harmoniously, with one mind, heart, and voice. May we mortals also glorify Him unto the ages. Amen.



The local Council of Laodicea, which rejected the impious worship of angels in its thirty-fifth canon but decreed lawful the pious veneration of angels and established the feast of their synaxis, was held shortly before the first great ecumenical council which met in the city of Nicea. The Council of Laodicea was convened in the year 319 after the Nativity of Christ, or according to certain authorities, in the year 320 or 321, while Saint Silvester was Pope of Rome. Thirty-two bishops attended this council, over which the Metropolitan of Laodicea Nunechius presided. Some say that Theodotus was Metropolitan at that time, but it is more likely that it was Nunechius who presided at the council.


_Apolytikion in the Fourth Tone_

O Commanders of the Heavenly Host, we the unworthy beseech you, that through your entreaties you will fortify us, guarding us in the shelter of the wings of your ethereal glory, even as we fervently bow before you crying: "Deliver us from all danger, as Commanders of the Powers on high! "

_Kontakion in the Second Tone_

Chief Commanders of God; ministers of divine glory; guides for men and leadership of the Incorporeal; as Chief Commanders of the Incorporeal, plead for our welfare and for great mercy.

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The Theological Error of a Simple Elder Who Saw Angels 


By St. John Moschos
One of the fathers said that there was one of the elders who was pure and holy; who, when he was celebrating the Eucharist, use to see angels standing to his right hand and to his left. He had learned the eucharistic service from heretics but, as he was unlearned in theological matters, when he made the offering he spoke the prayer in all simplicity and innocense, unaware that he was at fault.

By the Providence of God, there came to him a brother who was skilled in theology and it happened that the elder offered the Eucharist in his presence. The brother (who was a deacon) said to him: "Father, these things which you say at the Eucharist are not in accordance with the Orthodox faith; they are heresy." Since the elder could see angels when he was celebrating, he paid no attention to what was said, and thought nothing of it. But the deacon went on saying: "You are at fault, good elder; the Church does not allow those things to be said."

When the elder realized that he was being accused and blamed by the deacon, the next time he saw the angels, he asked them: "When the deacon speaks to me like this, what am I to make of it?" They said to him: "Pay attention to him; he is giving good counsel." The elder said to them: "Then why did you not tell me so?" They said: "Because God has ordained that men should be corrected by men", and from that time forth he accepted correction, giving thanks to God and to the brother.

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Papa-Dimitri Gagastathis and His Relationship With the Archangels 



_To read the autobiography of the Blessed Papa-Dimitri Gagastathis (1902-1975) is to read about the special relationship he had with his heavenly protectors, the Archangels Michael and Gabriel. There are many instances in his life in which they intervened to save his life and guide him along the correct path of God's will. Though he was a married priest with nine daughters, he was an angel in the flesh for his pure and simple faith, and for this reason his relationship with his heavenly protectors was extraordinarily close that every time he boldly called upon them they immediately responded.

Below is an example from Papa-Dimitri's autobiography to show how the Archangels once delivered him from error:_

On February 22, 1943, [pro-communist] guerrilla forces came to the village with patriotic slogans. In the beginning they looked like saints, just in order to win everyone over. They were "wolves in sheep's clothing". I was fooled as well and followed them. We provided them with food, clothing, etc. However, from the very first moment I started supporting them, the church of the Archangels would not receive me. Even when I was in there, I felt a pressure to leave quickly, as though somebody was chasing me out. I realized that I had fallen in sin and that I was being chastised for it and I beseeched the Archangels to relieve me. While I was serving one Sunday, before Doxology, a thought crossed my mind that the Church was being threatened by communism and that I should get sacrificed for Her, according to the Holy Gospel: "I lay down my soul for the sheep" (John 10:11). I made a resolution to preach against communism. After I finished Divine Liturgy, I went to the Archangels and asked them to assist me in the great struggle that was about to start. Immediately the fear left me....

That night, I saw in my sleep two radiant Greek Army officers, who brought me several loaves of bread and said: "Don't be afraid! We are on your side. Nothing will happen to you. Here, take these loaves, because you've got a long way to go - an arduous, hard, and inevitable way. That is for sure the way of victory, but it'll take time. In every danger, we'll be with you. This is the real way of God!"

From then on I resolved to proclaim steadfastly that the communists were the enemies of the Church, Country, and Family. Me, to deny my Christ? Never! They called me in three times for interrogation. They wanted to make me change my mind and keep quiet, just as other priests in our district had done. but I stood firm and prayed to the Archangels to help me with my duty. I didn't sign the declaration they wanted. "I'll die on my duty", I said.

On another occasion the Archangel Michael came to the aid of Papa-Dimitri and rescued him from danger:
On October 20, 1945, Sunday morning, just after I rang the bell, guerrilla troops encircled the village. A nationalist squad had camped in our village, and they wanted to destroy us all. I had just entered the church. On hearing all the commotion, I crossed myself, asked St. Nicholas' help, and ran out quickly. They fired at me with their rifles, but no bullet touched me. I headed towards another village where a nationalist army was. After a short while, eleven horseman overtook me. The bullets pierced the cassock, but not me... They encircled me at about fifty meters and shouted: "Where are you gonna go bearded devil, eh?" (They cursed me meanly). I lifted up my hands to heaven and cried from the depths of my soul: "Archangel Michael, I'm in danger, save me!" And behold, O great wonder: Archangel Michael appeared like lightening! He threw their chief down from his horse, cutting the bands of the saddle with his sword. The chief broke his spinal cord, while the other ten were frozen on the spot. One of them finally told me: "Forgive us, my pastor, go on your way! You've got high protectors!" "Thank you", I said. I forgave them and prayed to God to enlighten them so they might repent and become good men. "Always speak the truth", I told them, "and may God be your help."

_Papa-Dimitri also records how a demon possessed woman was healed by the power of the Holy Archangels:_

In August, 1958, the following happened to a young woman from Platanos. Since her childhood, she had fallen into many carnal sins. Two months ago, she started cohabitating with a fifty-four year old man. The righteous Judge, though, waited for her repentance. On August 6 she got possessed by unclean spirits. They beat her a lot and she screamed wildly. She could not see, hear, or recognize anyone. She was in another world. On August 8, he relatives called me to read a prayer over her. She gave no response. Then they asked for an icon of the Most Great Archangels to be brought to her. When the icon arrived, a radiant young man with a sword appeared to her - as she herself confessed later - and told her: "Don't be afraid, I'll deliver you from all this. But you have to repent and no more do what you have been doing so far. I'll protect you, but you must proclaim that the Church has a living religion for everyone to see and repent." And immediately - O great wonder! - she became well. The woman repented indeed and related to everyone what she saw and suffered. She kept saying: "Believe in God and in all His Saints. Believe especially in the grace of the Most Great Archangels - they have great power and can accomplish everything!" When I went to read a prayer over her on another occasion, she came forward to kiss my hand and thank the Archangels for their protection.

_These are just a few of many such manifestations of the special bond Papa-Dimitri had with his heavenly protectors. May we follow his example and seek such a close relationship with the Archangels and all the Saints, whom we can boldly call upon and they can also come to our aid in the same special way._

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*Miracles of the Archangel Michael in Roman Times* 


*Miracles of the Chief-commander of the Bodiless Host, the Archangel Michael, in Roman Times*

In the period after the New Testament, there are also accounts of the Archangel Michael's cures and wonders. Therefore, on this day, we call upon him as the protector of our lives, and celebrate his honored feast with the remembrance of some of his marvels.

*The Church of the Archangel Michael in Sosthenion*

When Emperor Constantine the Great (r. 306-337) was building Constantinople, it came to pass that he constructed a church dedicated to the Archangel Michael in the surrounding suburb, known as Sosthenion. The account of how this church came to be built is curious indeed. In the outlying suburb, there was a statue of a man with wings. The great Constantine marvelled at the work and wondered what it could mean. He asked his nobles, but no one knew to whom it was dedicated. He then besought God, "Reveal to me after whom the statue was fashioned." At night, the Archangel Michael appeared to him and said, "I am the Archangel Michael, the helper of the Christians, even as I have assisted thee in thy victories over thine enemies. For this cause, do thou build a church in my name, and I shall preserve thee from all thine enemies until the end of thy life." When the emperor awoke, he immediately set about fulfilling the command of the archangel. The church he erected was huge, for which he apportioned considerable revenues. On the feast day of the archangel, Christians from the suburbs were assembling at the new church from the outlying areas. One of the faithful had a child who was deaf and dumb from his mother's womb. The father brought the lad into the church and besought the archangel to heal him. After much supplicating, the archangel hearkened to the prayer of that poor father. During the Divine Liturgy, the child was brought before the icon of the Chief-commander Michael. When the deacon was about to say, "Let us attend," followed by the priest, "The Holies for the holy," the child, instead, spoke up and said, "Let us attend." From that hour, he was healed. The father returned every year to commemorate and thank the commander of the bodiless host.

*The Deliverance of Constantinople from the Perils of the Avars, Persians, and Arabs*

The Avars, mounted warriors, came to capture Constantinople. They used their swords, long lances, and reflex bows that they might gain the advantage. The hierarch at that time gathered the faithful of the city, and they went to the Church of the Chief-commander Michael, where they entreated God to be delivered from captivity to the barbarians. Then, when the Avars were about to enter the city, the Archangel Michael, as a flash of lightning, appeared in their midst. Out of their intense fear, many of the Avars fell prostrate on their faces, while others took to their heels and retreated. That same night, the archangel appeared to the khan of the Avars and said, "Leave quickly with all thy host, otherwise tomorrow thou shalt die and thy soldiers with thee." The khan, terrified, that same night, departed with his entire army and returned to his own place.

At another time, the Persian armies assembled and besieged Constantinople. They encamped outside the walls and prevented food and supplies from being brought into the city. The populace was in danger of dying from starvation. Having their hopes only in God, they also brought to mind the previous miracle performed by the Archangel Michael. The people went to his church and supplicated him that he might work a miracle as before. Then on the day that the Persians decided to enter the city, as they laid their ladders against the walls, the Archangel Michael appeared to the invaders. Once again, he appeared as lightning, throwing the Persians into a panic. In the commotion created by this visitation, the Persians, in their confusion, began fighting with one another, thinking they were battling the citizens of the city. The Constantinopolitans, beholding the confounded Persians, exited the city, slaying as many as they were able.

At another time, by sea, a multitude of Arab Muslims attacked the city, the strongest citadel in the world. This occurred during the reign of Emperor Constantine IV (669-685) grandson of Herakleios. The Arabs had already ravaged the countryside in Asia Minor, dragging off inhabitants to slavery. They already held Cyprus, Rhodes, and Kos. The peninsula of Kyzikos was also seized, which was in the neighborhood of the capital, thus providing the Muslims with a base for attack. News was then heard that part of the Arab fleet had captured Smyrna and other sections. The Arabs tried again and again to take the city. Once more, the faithful flocked to the Church of the Chief-commander Michael, imploring God and His archangel for help. The archangel hearkened to their cries. He pierced and bore through the Arab ships, causing most of the marauders to die of drowning. After a five-year siege, only three ships out of the entire fleet remained, and they turned and sailed back home in 678.

*The Preservation of the City of Akolia*

On the Black Sea, the city of Akolia was under attack by the Saracens. They tarried long with their forces outside the city. Not being able to take the city, they decided to depart. There was, however, a certain traitor inside the city who informed against the Christians to the Saracen chief, saying, "The Christians have a church dedicated to the Chief-commander Michael. It lies by the citadel wall. It is there that they supplicate God for His help, and for this reason you cannot launch an attack." The Saracens, receiving this piece of intelligence, set about making war machines to breach the citadel wall. After they had prepared their ropes, rolling battering rams, and catapults, they readied one large boulder to thrust against the narrow church. As soon as it was catapulted, the faces of the emir and his officers, who were responsible for flinging that boulder, turned backwards. Those wretched men wasted no time loading down the camels with plenty of incense, lamps, and oil. They also took silver from the bridles of their horses and went together to the Church of the Archangel Michael. They swore among themselves that they would never come again to Akolia for many years, and that the city would come to no harm. After they had sworn this vow, their faces returned to their proper places.

*The Archangel Michael at Colossae and Germia*

The Archangel Michael is remembered also for the miracle he performed at Chonae, near Colossae in Phrygia. He parched the waters of the river which the infidels released against his holy shrine and Saint Hermippos. The archangel's large basilica in Chonae, decorated with mosaics, was a center of pilgrimage and great trade fairs.

Now also in Germia, a city in western Galatia, below Mount Dindymon, the Archangel Michael wrought numberless cures. In 454, the consuI of Constantinople, one Stoudios, was sick and near death. No physician could offer him a cure or any treatment. At that time, a certain man, named Goulio, who was from Germia, came to the capital. He visited the sick consul and began recounting how many miracles were taking place in Germio at the archangel's healing spring. Even the little fish, with the aid of the Archangel Michael, were effecting cures. As Stoudios listened to the accounts, he believed that God would help him.

In the company of other ill folk, Stoudios traveled to Germia. Straghtway, as he entered that holy spring, he was cured. Not only Stoudios received healing, but also his entire traveling party. One of the members was suffering from glaucoma, and he too received a swift cure for his eyes. Studios, beholding the number of miracles taking place, then resolved to most of his fortune building a great church to the archangel.

The five-aisled basilica of ashlar masonry with much sculptured decoration still survives in Galatia. He endowed the church also with revenues for its maintenance. The consul also built homes for the sick and aged. All the while, sick people kept flocking to the site of the archangel's healing waters. Having come with faith, they were leaving healed, including many blind folk who recovered their sight, and the lame who were enabled to walk.

*The Cure of the Monk Markianos and the Physician*

At the time of the restoration of the icons, during the reigns of Empress Theodora (842-856) and her son Emperor Michael III (842-867), there was a certain monk, named Markianos, who was living at the Monastery of the Archangel Michael inside Constantinople. Whenever Father Markianos became ill, he did not take refuge in physicians and medicines. His only recourse was to fall before the icon of the Archangel Michael, who always cured him of whatever ailed him. It happened one time that the monk became gravely ill. According to his custom, he hastened to the icon of the Archangel Michael seeking help. This time, however, the archangel wished to test him, and did not render a cure. The relatives and friends of Markianos came and reproved him for not seeking medical treatment, but he would not listen to their counsel. Unbeknownst to Markianos, they contrived among themselves that they would seek out a physician on his behalf. They found one and learned from him the proper course of treatment and received medicines appropriate to Markianos' condition. They were to administer them while Markianos was asleep. They, therefore, took the drugs and hid them in his head cushion, and waited until sleep should overtake him.

That night, instead of Father Markianos finding rest, those waiting to administer the drugs fell asleep. Father Markianos, not being able to sleep, remained wide awake. It then appeared to him that he saw the Archangel Michael exiting the holy sanctuary of the church, being escorted by two beautiftil and wondrous youths. He walked over to Father Markianos, as he lay on his pillow. Seeing the drugs, he said to the monk, "What are these?" The monk answered, "I do not know, 0 archangel." The chief-commander then said to the youths, "Take these medicines and put them under the pillow of the physician who concocted them." Markianos then observed the youths walking out of the church. The archangel then took oil from the oil lamp before his icon. He proceeded to anoint Father Markianos, who was instantly cured. Father Markianos, sensible of the healing, kept giving thanks to God.

At midnight, the priest went to the church that he might chant the Orthros Service. He found Markianos healthy and restored as before. That same morning, the priest was called to the house of the physician, who had become gravely ill during the night. The priest then recounted all that he had heard from Markianos. The physician, therefore, came to understand the cause of his sudden illness. He rose up, being supported by others, and went to the Church of the Archangel Michael. He remained there all day, lying before the icon. By evening, he was cured, but he did not return to his house or profession. He decided to remain at that church and become a monk, bequeathing all he had to that church.

This and many other miracles were wrought by the commander of the bodiless host, Michael.

Through the intercessions of Thine Archangels and all of the Celestial Host, O Christ God, have mercy on us. Amen.

_Apolytikion in the Fourth Tone_

O Commanders of the Heavenly Host, we the unworthy beseech you, that through your entreaties you will fortify us, guarding us in the shelter of the wings of your ethereal glory, even as we fervently bow before you crying: "Deliver us from all danger, as Commanders of the Powers on high! "

_Kontakion in the Second Tone_

Chief Commanders of God; ministers of divine glory; guides for men and leadership of the Incorporeal; as Chief Commanders of the Incorporeal, plead for our welfare and for great mercy.

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*The Miracle of the Archangel Michael at Sipontus Which Occurred in 390 A.D.* 


By St. Dimitri Rostov
The city of Sipontus lies between the Adriatic Sea and the mountain named Garganus; it is located twelve thousand paces from the mountain. Living in this city was a wealthy man whose herds were tended on the slopes of the mountain. Once, a bull from one of his herds was lost. After a lengthy search the lord and his servants found the bull standing before the entrance of a cave on the summit of the mountain. Enraged by the labor that he had expended in the search, the rich man took a bow and a poisoned arrow and shot at his bull, hoping to kill him. However, the arrow suddenly reversed its course and wounded the shooter. Those who had accompanied him were frightened at seeing this occurrence and did not dare to approach the cave; rather, they returned to the city and informed the people of what had happened.

When the Bishop of the city heard the story, he entreated God to reveal to him the meaning of this mystery. The holy Chief Commander Michael appeared to the Bishop in a vision, telling the Bishop that he had chosen that place for himself. He explained that he guarded it, desired to visit the place frequently, and gave succor to those who prayerfully resorted there.

The Bishop announced his vision to the people, and after a three-day fast which had been ordained for all the inhabitants of the city, he went with his clergy and all the people to the mountain. Ascending it, they found in some rocks a cave with a narrow entrance. Not daring to enter, they instead offered up supplication before the entrance. Since that time the people have frequented that place, praying to God and the holy Chief Commander Michael.

Once, the unbelieving Neapolitans gathered together and fell upon the city of Sipontus without warning, hoping to take and destroy it. They struck great fear into the hearts of the citizens of Sipontus. The Bishop of the latter city ordered that the people fast for three days, eating nothing, and that they pray fervently to be delivered from the foes who were besieging them. Saint Michael appeared to the Bishop in a vision the day before the enemy planned to assault the city with all their forces, saying, "Tomorrow morning at the fourth hour of the day, instruct the citizens of your city to take up arms and sally against the enemy, and I shall come to your aid."

The Bishop awoke from sleep and revealed his vision to the people, who rejoiced exceedingly over the promised victory over their foes and were strengthened by this good hope. When the fourth hour of the day arrived, they heard great thunder. Lifting up their eyes, they beheld a great cloud descending upon Mount Garganus. There fire, smoke, and lightning appeared as once on Sinai. The thunder was so loud that it caused the entire mountain, which was covered by the cloud, to shake. The enemy, being extremely frightened at what they saw, began to flee. The citizens thus perceived that their good guardian and swift intercessor had come with his heavenly hosts to their aid, and they opened the city gates and pursued their enemies, cutting them down like grass. The holy Chief Commander Michael struck them from above with thunder and lightning as the people put them to the sword from behind. Six hundred men were killed by thunder and lightning. Having pursued them all the way to Naples, with the help of the heavenly powers they utterly defeated their foes, returning in triumph to their own city. The Neapolitans acknowledged the power of the mighty hand of the all-powerful God from that time forward and received the holy faith. As for the citizens of Sipontus, they gathered together with the Bishop and clergy and went to the mountain upon which the dread manifestation took place, wishing to render thanksgiving there to God and to their helper, the Chief Commander Michael, and to all the heavenly powers. When they had come close to the entrance of the cave, they found footprints in the marble, seemingly human, and clearly outlined as though in miry ground. They said to one another, "Lo, the holy Chief Commander Michael left here an indication of his visitation, for he was present here himself and delivered us from our enemies." Bowing down, they kissed those footprints and sang a service of thanksgiving to God, rejoicing in their guardian and intercessor. They resolved to erect there a church dedicated to the holy Chief Commander Michael. However, when they were ready to build the church, Saint Michael appeared to the Bishop once again and said, "It is not necessary for you to trouble yourselves with building a church; I will prepare a temple there for myself without your assistance. Only go there tomorrow, serve the Holy Liturgy inside, and administer the divine Mysteries to the people."

After seeing this vision, the Bishop instructed all the people to prepare themselves to receive the Communion of the Holy Mysteries, and he went with them, singing a hymn of supplication. When they arrived at the holy place where the sacred footprints were outlined in the marble, they found a small church hollowed out of the rock. It was not made in the usual manner by the hands of men; rather, it was fashioned in the form of a cave with uneven walls. The height of the ceiling varied; in one place ones head might touch the ceiling, and in another place the ceiling could not be touched with the hand. Clearly this church was arranged in such a fashion for the instruction of men, for God desires pure hearts, not elaborate stonework. The holy table was covered with a scarlet cloth, and on it the Bishop served the Holy Liturgy, distributing the most pure Mysteries to the people. There was in the altar on the north side a trickle of pure water that was sweet, exceeding clear, and miraculous, and those who drank this water received health. The people also drank of this water after communing of the Holy Mysteries. Countless miracles were worked in that church, and every infirmity was healed through the prayers of the holy Chief Commander Michael. The Bishop erected cells alongside the church, arranging for the priests, deacons, cantors, and readers to fulfill the daily order of church services to the glory of God and in honor of the holy Chief Commander Michael.

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*The Angels According to Orthodox Tradition* 



By Nabil Semaan
*FEAST OF THE ARCHANGELS*

On the 8th of November, the Orthodox Church celebrates the Feast of Synaxis of the Archangels Michael and Gabriel and the rest of the archangels. The word synaxis means the gathering of believers to celebrate a feast, or to make a remembrance of a saint. This feast also has a special meaning; it is the gathering of the humans with the angels, "their union, their gathering and standing in fear in front of the Creator."(1) Because of the fall of the devil and his angels, this feast is the celebration of the "sobriety and unity" of the rest of the angelic powers who stayed loyal to God. "We celebrate also the contribution of the angels and archangels and their help and support in the war against the dark powers and the devil."(2)

We celebrate this feast of unity between angels and humans, and this unity is not in the "life to come" at the end of times — it starts in this world: the angels direct and guard the sons of God who are struggling in this world; they are glad with every sinner returning to God; they convey prayers to God's throne. Hence, there is a common liturgical work between angels and humans. The angels offer a non-stop continuous doxology and mental worship with humans to God. They offer to the Holy Trinity the Trisagion: "With these holy powers, we sinners say the trisagion, 'Holy, Holy, Holy Lord of Sabaoth, the heavens and earth are filled with Thy glory, hosanna in the highest, blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord, hosanna in the highest'." They gather around the holy altar with the priest to serve with him the Liturgy.

So there is only one celebration, one feast common between humans and angels: "Angels with humans celebrate together, earthly with heavenly speak."(3) "Through Thy Cross Christ our God, the angels and humans become one church, heaven and earth are united, O Lord glory to Thee."(4) The angels are members of the Church, the body of Christ. The 8th of November is also a specific feast of Archangel Michael, going back in history in celebrating the memory of his church in Arkadia in Constantinople.

*WORK OF ANGELS*

From the book of Tobiah in the Old Testament, the Archangel Raphael reveals himself to Tobiah by saying: "I will not hide from you the mystery, when you were praying, you and Sarah, I was lifting your prayers to the Holy One … and now God sent me to heal your wounds … I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who lift the prayers of the saints and serve the Throne of the Holy One" (Tobiah 12:12-15). In this passage there is a description of the work of angels, which is mainly to lift the prayers of the saints and help God, and they are sent by God to humans to help them.

"And of the angels he saith, whom maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire" (Hebrew 1:7).

The word angelos is Greek and means "who is sent" or "messenger." This name is given to them by God because of the function of serving the human race to be saved: "Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation" (Hebrews 1:14).

*CREATION OF ANGELS*

The Holy Scriptures do not mention exactly when the angels were created, but the Church in its holy tradition, through the writings of its holy fathers, chiefly St. John of Damascus, St. John Cassian, St. Basil the Great, St. Gregory the Theologian, St. Ambrose of Milan, St. Dimitri Rostov, St. Dionysios the Areopagite - all of them believe that they were created from "nothing" prior to the sensible material world and prior to humans. The angels were created by God to glorify Him and contemplate Him, "when the stars were created, all my angels were glorifying me and praising me" (Job 38:7). It is the Logos of God, Who created them because, "for by Him were all things created, that are in heavens, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers, all things were created by Him and for Him" (Colossians 1:16).

*DIVISION OF ANGELS(5)*

According to St. Dionysios the Areopagite, the angels are divided into three ranks; each rank is also divided into three groups. The first rank is made up of the Seraphim, the Cherubim and Thrones. The second rank is made up of Dominions, Hosts and Powers. Finally, the third rank is made up of Principalities, Archangels and Angels. According to St. John of Damascus, each group (and rank) differs from the others in hierarchy and splendour, depending on their closeness to God.(6)

The Seraphim are the highest rank, the closest to God. Seraphim is a Hebrew word meaning "fire," and it symbolizes the heat of their love of God. The Seraphim have six wings: "I saw the Lord sitting on a throne high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple, above it stood the seraphim: each one had six wings; with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he did fly, and one cried unto another, and said: 'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of Hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory'" (Isaiah 6:1-3).

Below the Seraphim directly there are the wise Cherubim, who are the "many-eyes" due to their unceasing contemplation (theoria) of God. The word Cherubim is Hebrew and means "abundance of wisdom;" it symbolizes perfection in knowledge of God. St. John of Damascus says that the food of angels is the contemplation of God.(7)

Directly behind the Cherubim comes the Thrones, and they are the angels on whom God rests, as their name indicates.

All these angels stand around God's throne in fear and great respect of His glory; they contemplate God and know His "energy" and not his "essence" (ousia), since they are creatures. They are in a continuous attraction (eros) and "ecstasy" to God, to the extent that they forget themselves. Every rank (and group) of angels, according to its closeness to God, partakes of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of wisdom and discernment, the Spirit of power and fear of God. Furthermore, their communion with the Holy Spirit is continuous. The angels do not have the feeling of jealousy and competition between them; they all have one will, which is to serve God; the angels of the lower ranks obey in love the angels of the higher ranks as if in obedience to God.

*ARCHANGELS*

The angels are also a "heavenly army." Their leader and head is Archangel Michael, who is one of the seven spirits in front of God's throne. "O Holy Archangel Michael glorified, God has placed you head of their Hosts, Powers, Angels and Archangels, Dominions, and Principalities" (Exapostolarion of the feast).

The archangels, or commanders of all the angels, are seven in number. According to St. Dimitri Rostov, they are Seraphim, the closest to God. They are: Michael (Missa-iil in Hebrew), which means "Who is like God"; Gabriel (Jibra-iil in Hebrew), which means "God's power"; Raphael (Roupha-iil in Hebrew), which means "God's mercy"; Selaphiel (Salaata-iil in Hebrew), which means "prayer to God"; Uriel (Oura-iil in Hebrew), which means "God's light"; Jegudiel (Yagoud-iil in Hebrew), which means "God's glory," and Barachiel (Baraki-iil), which means "God's blessing."(8)

*NATURE OF ANGELS*

According to St. Dionysios the Areopagite, the angels were created as humans in the "image and likeness" of God. According to the "image" because they have an intellect (mind) that generates thoughts (ideas), and to the "likeness" because the angels are directed and attracted toward God.(9) St. John of Damascus says they are creatures limited in space and time; they have their own specific external appearance. Compared to humans, they are bodiless due to the human's "heavy body," but compared to God they have a body. "We speak about the angels as bodiless and immaterial compared to us, but in fact everything is heavy and material compared to God, to Whom nobody can be compared, because only the Divine is non-material and bodiless."(10) He continues to say that, "God created the angels according to His own image and He created them weightless and with heat" in order to be attracted to Him and to serve Him. He adds: "The angel is always in motion, he has free will, gifted with an immortal nature. This nature is intellectual, thus he has a free changing will."(11) The angels do not need a tongue or ears to communicate; they interchange thoughts, and their food is theoria.

It is also important to note that St. John of Damascus emphasizes that, "The angels are not subject to repentance because they do not have a heavy body, while humans can repent because they have a body, though it is weak." And he continues to say, "The angels are higher than humans because they are bodiless and free from the passions of the body, but they are not free from other passions because only God has absolute impassibility."(12)

St. Macarius the Great says that, "The angels have a light body and an external appearance of humans,"(13) and St. John of Damascus confirms this in saying that, "Angels take different forms when they appear to humans to convey to them the divine mysteries … if it is God's will to an angel to appear to one of the saints, the appearance he takes differs and depends on the capacity of the person to see."(14) St. Ignatius Brianchaninov confirms that "our incapability to see angels is due to our fallen human nature. Adam and Eve before the fall were participating with the angels in giving glory to God, and they were living with them … That is why the saints look forward to 'be like angels of God in the heavens' (Matthew 22:30), and the monastic rank is called an equal to the angelic rank."(15)

Finally, the place or "home" of angels is heaven, "in the third heaven where the archangels stand before the throne of God, surrounded by a countless heavenly army" (Isaiah 6; Revelation 4:5).

*THE FALL OF ANGELS(16)*

First of all, this event happened before the fall of man. The cause of the fall of some angels is that they rebelled against God. Their leader was one of the most beautiful Cherubim; he was gifted much more than the others in divine grace, according to the prophet Isaiah: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north, I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.' Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit" (Isaiah 14:12-15).

The prophet Ezekiel symbolizes the king of Tyre with the fallen Cherubim: "Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty, thou hast been in Eden the garden of God … Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day that thou has been created until iniquity was found in thee … therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God, and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire … I will cast thee to the ground" (Ezekiel 28:12-18). This fall was as fast as the lightning described by the Lord Jesus Himself in the Gospel of St. Luke: "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" (Luke 10:18).

This fallen Cherubim attracted to him a number of angels of different ranks, some from the higher ranks, and he took them with him. They were expelled from paradise, so they wandered on earth. The Archangel Michael resisted the devil rebeller and his companions, and a war happened in heaven. "Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought with his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found anymore in heaven" (Revelation 12:7-8). As St. Ignatius Brianchaninov describes it, "The devil carried with him one third of the angels and threw them on earth." Then, the Archangel Michael cried in a loud voice, "let us attend" in order not to fall with the devil and his angels. He did not dare to judge the devil, he just demanded attention and vigil once, and from that time the relation between the angels loyal to God got stronger by grace and they were not subject to evil. From that time, there is a strong war between the angels loyal to God and the devil and his angels. All the gifts that were for the demons were turned to evil. The devil was called "Satan," a Hebrew word meaning "enemy," which parallels the Greek word diabolis, which means "divider." The word demon is Greek and means "the fallen angel."

St. Ignatius Brianchaninov describes that, before the fall of Adam, the devil was wandering the sky having within him a feeling of great emptiness. God allowed him by His great compassion and mercy to enter the paradise of Eden in order to contemplate its beauty and give him a chance to repent. But he was jealous of Adam and Eve, and tried with all his force to cast them out of paradise, and succeeded in casting Adam and Eve out of paradise and even bringing them under his control. In that way the devil lost every hope of coming back to God.

From the instance of the fall of man, there is a great conflict within the human person between the angels of light and angels of darkness. The angels of light were sent by God to help the humans even from the era of the Old Testament. We see the Archangel Gabriel in charge of Israel when they left Egypt, Archangel Raphael helping Tobit, Michael sent to help Joshua the son of Nun, and arguing with the devil regarding the body of Moses. However, the devil was always trying to make humans sin, but without knowing he is doing the will of God, because every evil ends always with goodness. The devil, then, became an instrument of God's trial to men.

*GLADNESS OF ANGELS(17)*

"Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation" (Hebrew 1:14). St. John Chrysostom comments on this verse by saying, "Look how God loves man so that He created holy creatures to serve the man created according to His image." Humans, although heavier than angels by their body and in a state of sin, death and corruption, when they are deified become higher than the angels in divinity and holiness. "What is man, that thou art mindful of him? And the son of man, that thou visited him? For thou hast made him a little lower than angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour" (Psalm 8:5-7). The example of this is the Theotokos, the Mother of God, who became "more honorable than the cherubim and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim." The devil is jealous of the rank man took after the incarnation.

St. Gregory of Nyssa says, "Angels kneel in front of every man who is born again and celebrate the return of men to the original grace through the Newborn, because they are glad for every man who is saved from sin. This gladness of angels will not be complete until the second coming of Christ, for which the angels are waiting."

*THE GUARDIAN ANGEL(18)*

"For He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways" (Psalm 90:11). The major work of angels is to praise God, but their partial work is to guard humans and the universe that surrounds humans. The Holy Fathers mention many cases in the Old and New Testaments about angels helping humans. For example, when St. Peter was delivered from prison, it was said: "This is his angel" (Acts 12:15).

St. John Chrysostom says that "for every one of us has his angel;" St. Basil the Great adds, "Beside every believer in God, sits his angel, so repent." Finally the angel of prayer is the angel who helps us to pray. St. Clement of Alexandria says, "Even when a person prays alone, he is accompanied by angels." Tertullian commands the Christian not to sit when he prays in respect for the angel of prayer standing beside him. Archangel Raphael is one of the seven angels who "carry the prayers of the saints to God" (Tobiah 12:15). Origen writes, "Angels gather close to the person praying to be united to his prayer. Moreover, each angel contemplates the face of the Father in Heaven and prays with us and works for us for all our needs."

*ROLE OF ANGELS IN OUR SPIRITUAL LIFE*

The angels have a major role in the spiritual life of each person. First of all, they convey all the spiritual gifts to the person and this according to their rank and depending on the person's spiritual stage: purification, illumination or deification. "The more we purify ourselves, the more we know God, and the more we love Him" (St. Gregory the Theologian). The spiritual person resembles the angels, as St. Gregory of Nyssa says: "The spiritual life allows the spirit to enter the world of angels." During the purification stage, "We need an angel to help us overcome our passions, since we are not perfect," according to Origen. In the illumination stage, the soul enters the angelic world, to attain finally a life of union with God.

The angels contemplate how the soul moves out of the darkness of sin to a state of illumination and grace and passes them over to the glory that the Logos granted to humanity only in His union with human nature. The angels wait for a deified person to be united to his prayer and be lifted up more towards God. That is why, "The angels wait for the death of martyrs to lead their souls to its place," says St. Gregory of Nyssa, and "they surround the martyrs on their way to God and they accompany them to the holy of holies where the Holy Trinity is in the middle of Cherubim and Seraphim," confirms St. John Chrysostom.

*CONCLUSION*

What prohibits us from living like angels, if the angelic life is granted for every true sincere faithful member of the Church? Many people ask why they cannot see angels, and why the angels do not help them, but they do not question if they are really free from the passions that darken the soul and the heart. The main goal is to free ourselves from passions. We must ask of God for an angel of peace, who will direct and protect our life and spirit and body.

Through the intercessions of our Holy Angels, may our God enlighten us and save us. Amen.

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## acptulsa

Thank you so much for mentioning Michael.

We're all too much like the media--too focused on the bad news.  It just isn't just that Satan gets all the attention.

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## Matthew5

Excellent thread! I've got Archangel Michael and Gabriel icons on order now!

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## TER

*The Church's Teaching Concerning Angels*


*LINK*

*The Creation, Nature and Purpose of the Angelic World. Angels in Holy Scripture.*

The word "angel" means "messenger" and this word expresses the nature of angelic service to the human race. From the days of man's life in paradise, mankind has known of their existence, and its almost universal recognition is reflected not only in Judaism but in most other ancient religions as well.

When Adam was expelled from paradise after his fall, one of the cherubim with a flaming sword was set to guard the gates of Eden (Gen. 3:24). When Abraham sent his servant to Nahor, he encouraged him by telling him that the Lord would send His angel before him and prosper his way (Gen. 24: 7, 40). Jacob saw angels both in a dreamthe vision of the ladderand when awakewhen returning home to Esau he saw a host of the angels of God. In the Psalter there are constant references to angels, and we also read of them in the Book of Job and the prophets. The Prophet Isaiah saw the seraphim surrounding the throne of God, and the Prophet Ezekiel saw cherubim in his vision of the Temple of God (Is. 6:1-7, Ezek. 10:1-22.)

In the New Testament, the Book of Revelation contains much information about angels and many references to them. An angel announced the birth of John the Baptist to Zacharias; so also did an angel announce the birth of the Savior to the most holy Virgin Mary and appear in a dream to Joseph. A mighty host of angels sang the glory of Christ's nativity; an angel announced the birth of the Savior to the shepherds and stopped the Wise Men from returning to Herod; angels ministered to Jesus Christ during His temptation in the wilderness; an angel appeared to Him in the Garden of Gethsemane; angels announced His Resurrection to the myrrh-bearing women; and at His ascension angels proclaimed, His second coming. Angels loosed the bonds of Peter and the other Apostles (Acts 5:19) and of Peter alone (Acts 12:7-15); an angel appeared to Cornelius the Centurion, telling him to send for Peter who would instruct him in the word of God (Acts 10:3-7). An angel announced to Paul that he was to appear before Caesar (Acts 27:23-24) and the vision of angels is the foundation of the Revelation of St. John.


*The Creation of the Angels*

In the Symbol of Faith we find the following words: "I believe in One God . . . the Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible." The invisible, angelic world was created by God before the visible world. "When the stars were made, all My angels praised Me with a loud voice" (Job 38:7). The Apostle Paul writes: "For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by Him and for Him" (Col. 1:16). Studying the first words of the Book of Genesis, "in the beginning God created heaven and earth", some of the Fathers of the Church understand the word "heaven" as meaning not the firmament, which was created later, but the invisible heaven, the world of angels. Many teachers of the Church have expressed the thought that God created the angels long before the visible world (Ambrose, Jerome, Gregory the Great, Anastasius of Sinai) and that at the time when the material universe was created, they already stood before the face of the Creator and served Him. St. Gregory writes about this as follows: "As the goodness (or "love") of God could not find satisfaction in contemplating Himself, He wished to spread this goodness ever further, so that the number of those who would enjoy it should be as great as possible (for such is the nature of the highest form of goodness) and so God first thought of the angelic heavenly powers, and thought became act, carried out by the Word and fulfilled by the Spirit. As His first creation was pleasing to Him, He then devised another world, material and visible, and a well-balanced unity between heaven and earth and that which is between them." This idea of St. Gregory is echoed in the work of St. John of Damascus (Precise Confession of the Orthodox Faith, Book II, Chapter 3).


*The Nature of the Angels*

By their nature, angels are active spirits endowed with reason, will and knowledge; they serve God, fulfil the will of His Providence and praise Him. They are incorporeal spirits, and because they belong to the invisible world, cannot be seen by our bodily eyes. St. John of Damascus writes: "When it is the will of God that angels should appear to those who are worthy, they do not appear as they are in their essence, but, transformed, take on such an appearance as to be visible to physical eyes." In the book of Tobit, the angel accompanying Tobit and his son says of himself: "All these days I was visible to you, but I neither ate nor drank, this only appeared to your eyes" (Tobit 12:19).

But St. John of Damascus also writes: "An angel can only be called incorporeal and non-material in comparison with us. For in comparison with God, Who alone is beyond compare, everything seems coarse and material, only the divinity is totally non-material -and incorporeal."
The Degree of Perfection of the Angels

Angels are the most perfect spirits, superior to man in their spiritual powers; but even they, like all creation; are bound by their limitations. As they are incorporeal spirits, they are less confined, by space and place than men, and can travel distances of, to us, inconceivable vastness with lightning speed, to appear where it is necessary for them to act. However, it is impossible to say that they are totally independent of limitations of space and place, or that they could be omnipresent. Holy Scripture depicts angels as descending from heaven to earth, or ascending from earth to heaven, which gives us reason to believe that they cannot be on earth and in heaven at the same time.

Immortality is one of the qualities of angels, as we are given clear evidence in Holy Scripture, which teaches that they cannot die (Luke 20:36). However, their immortality is not divine (that is, independent and unconditional), but depends, like the immortality of human souls, completely on the will and mercy of God.

Angels, being incorporeal spirits, are capable to the highest degree spiritual development. Their mind has a much more exalted quality than that of the human mind and in power and strength they transcend all earthly authorities, as St. Peter teaches (II Pet. 2:11). The nature of an angel is higher than the nature of a man, as King David teaches us when, to stress the dignity of a man, he remarks, "Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels" (Ps. 8:5). However, even their exalted qualities have their limits. Holy Scripture tells us that they do not know the depths of the essence of God, which is known only to the Spirit of God: "The things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God" (I Cor. 2:11). They do not know the future, which is also known only to God: "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, ... not the angels which are in heaven" (Mark 13:32). The angels are also incapable of fully understanding the mystery of redemption, which they "desire to look into" (I Pet. 1:12) but cannot. They are even incapable of knowing all human thoughts (Kings 8:39), and cannot perform miracles on their own but only by the will of God. "Blessed is the Lord, the God of Israel, Who alone doeth wonders" (Ps. 71:19).


*The Numbers and the Ranks of Angels*

The world of angels is depicted in Holy Scripture as immeasurably vast. When the Prophet Daniel saw the Ancient of Days in a vision, he saw that "thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousands of myriads attended upon Him" (Dan. 7:10). A multitude of the heavenly host are also described as hymning the nativity of the Son of God.

St. Cyril of Jerusalem writes: "Imagine how great in number is the Roman people, imagine how great in number are the other barbarian peoples that now exist, and how many must have died even! In a century, imagine how many have been buried in a thousand years, imagine all mankind, from Adam to the present day. Great is their multitude, but it is small in comparison with the angels, whose numbers are greater. They are the ninety-nine sheep, whereas the human race is the one lost sheep. By the greatness of a place one can judge the numbers of those who dwell in it. The earth we inhabit is a mere dot in the heavens, thus the heaven that surrounds it must have a much greater number of inhabitants. As is has greater space, the heavens of heavens hold their innumerable number. If it is written that 'a thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousands of myriads attended upon Him' this is only because the prophet could express no greater number." When the numbers of the angels are so great, it is natural to assume that in their world, as in the material: world, there are various degrees of perfections and therefore various ranks or a hierarchy of the heavenly powers. Thus Holy Scripture calls some angels and others archangels (I Thess. 4:16, Jude v. 9).

The Orthodox Church, guided by the views of the writers of the early Church and the Fathers of the Church, and in particular by the work On the Celestial Hierarchies by St. Dionysius the Areopagite, divides the world of the angels into nine ranks, and these nine into three hierarchies, each consisting of three ranks. In the first hierarchy stand those that are closest to God-thrones, cherubim and seraphim. In the second, or middle hierarchy are authorities, dominions and powers. The third hierarchy, which is closest to us, contains angels, archangels and principalities (Orthodox Confessions). We find the enumeration of nine ranks of angels in the "Decrees of the Apostles", and in the works of St. Ignatius the God-bearer, St. Gregory the Theologian, and St. John Chrysostom; later in the works of St. Gregory the Dialogist, St. John of Damascus and others. This is what St. Gregory the Dialogist writes: "We accept the existence of nine ranks of angels, because from the evidence of the Word of God we know about angels, archangels, powers, authorities, principalities, dominions, thrones, cherubim and seraphim. The existence of angels and archangels is witnessed throughout Holy Scripture; it is principally the books of the Prophets which mention cherubim and seraphim. The names of yet another four ranks are listed by the Apostle Paul in his Epistle to the Ephesians, where he writes: Far above all principality; and power, and might, and dominion and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come (Eph. 1:21); and also in his Epistle to the Colossians: For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him and for Him (Col. 1:16). Thus, when to those four, of whom he speaks to the Ephesiansthat is to the principalities, authorities, powers and dominionswe add the thrones, mentioned in the Epistle to the Colossians, that adds up to five ranks of angels; and when to them we add the angels, archangels, cherubim and seraphim, we can see that there are nine ranks of angels."

And in fact, when we examine the books of Holy Scripture, we find the names of the nine ranks which have been listed; more than nine are not mentioned. We read the name of the cherubim in the 3rd chapter of Genesis, in Psalms 80 and 99, in ch. 10 of Ezekiel; of the seraphim in Isaiah ch. 6; of powers in the Epistle to the Ephesians ch. 1, and to the Romans ch. 8; of thrones, authorities, principalities, and dominions in the Epistle to the Colossians ch. 1, to the Ephesians ch. 1 and 3; of archangels in the First Epistle to the Thessalonians ch. 4 and the Epistle of Jude v. 9; of angels in the First Epistle of Peter ch. 3, and the Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans ch. 8, and in; various other places. On this evidence of Holy Scripture the number of angelic ranks recognized in the teaching of the Orthodox Church is normally limited to nine.

However, some Fathers of the Church express their personal opinion that the division of angels into nine ranks covers only those names and ranks which have been revealed to us in this present life; others will be revealed in the world to come. This idea has been developed by St. John Chrysostom, the Blessed Theodoretus, and Theophilactus the Bulgarian. Chrysostom writes: "There are in truth other powers, whose names even are unknown to us. Not only angels, archangels, thrones, dominions, authorities and powers inhabit the heavens, but there are innumerable other kinds and an unimaginable multitude of classes, which no words can be adequate to express. But what evidence is there that there are more powers than those whose names are known to us? The Apostle Paul, when he mentions one of the series of ranks we know, also reminds of the other which we do not, when he writes of Christ: 'He ... set Him at His own right hand, in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come' (Eph. 1:20-21). From this we see that there are certain names which will be known then, but are now unknown. Hence the reference to a "name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come." These ideas, however, are regarded by the Church not as dogma, but as personal opinions which may or may not be true.

On the whole the writers and teachers of the early Church regarded the doctrine of the heavenly hierarchy as something mysterious. St Dionysius writes in his On the Celestial Hierarchies: "How many ranks there are of heavenly beings, what their nature is and in what manner the mystery of holy authority is ordered among them, only God can know in detail. It is He Who created their hierarchy, and they themselves know their own powers, the nature of their light, their holy and most peaceful system of ranks. All that we can say about this is what God has revealed to us through them themselves, because they know themselves". The blessed Augustine has similar ideas. "That there exist thrones, principalities; dominions and powers in the heavenly mansions, I believe most firmly, and I hold it as an undoubted fact that there are distinctions between them, but what exactly they are like and what exactly are the distinctions between them, I do not know."

In Holy Scripture we find the names of some of the highest angels. There are two such names in the canonical books, "Michael" ("Who is like unto God?" Dan. 10:13; 12:1; Jude v. 9; Rev. 12:7-8) and "Gabriel" ("Man of God" Dan. 8:16; 9:21; Luke 1:19-26). In the deutero-canonical books of the "Apocrypha" we have "Raphael" ("The help of God" Tobit 3:17; 12:15); "Uriel" ("Fire of God" A.V.) or "Jeremiel" ("The highness or mercy of God" R.V.), in II Esdras 4:36; "Uriel" also in II Esdras 4:1; "Salathiel" ("Prayer to God" A.V.) or "Phaltiel" R.V. or "Psaltiel" (in Syriac, II Esdras 5:16). Apart from these names, pious tradition gives yet another two names of angels, "Jehudiel" ("The praise of God") and "Barachiel" ("The blessing of God"), although these names do not appear in Holy Scripture. Various listings exist of the great archangels and in these many alternative names occur, yet it is significant that in all cases only seven names are given and this is in agreement with the words of St. John in the Revelation: "Grace be unto you and peace, from Him Which is, and Which is to come: and from the seven spirits which are before His throne " (Rev. 1:4).


*The Service of the Angels*

But what is the purpose of the beings who people the spiritual world? Obviously God intended and intends that they should be the most perfect reflections of His majesty and glory and share in His bliss. If we are told of the visible heavens, "The heavens declare the glory of God", how much more is this the purpose of the spiritual heavens. For this reason St. Gregory the Theologian calls them "reflections of the Perfect Light" or secondary lights.

The angels of those ranks which are closest to the human race appear in Holy Scripture as messengers or heralds of the will of God, guides for people and the servants of their salvation. The Apostle Paul writes: "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?" (Heb. 1:14).

Angels not only hymn the glory of God, but also serve Him in the plan of His Providence for the material world. The Fathers of the Church often speak of this service of theirs. "Some of them stand before the Great God, while others by their action support the whole world" (St. Gregory the Theologian, "Songs of the Mysteries"). Angels are "set in command of the elements, the heavens, the world, and all within it" (St. Athenagoras). "Each of them has received under his control some particular part of the universe, or is attached to some particular thing or person in the world, as is known to Him Who arranges and orders all things, and all work towards one goal, by command of the Builder of all things" (St. Gregory the Theologian). Some ecclesiastical writers express the idea that particular angels are set in charge of particular aspects of the kingdom of nature, inorganic, organic and animal or animate, as we read, for example, in the works of Origen and Blessed Augustine. This idea comes from the Revelation, where we read of angels set in charge of certain physical elements by the will of God (Rev. 16:15: "And I heard the angel of the waters say . . ."; Rev. 7:1 : "I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, not on the sea, nor on any tree;" Rev. 14:18: "And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire . . ."). According to the vision of the Prophet Daniel, there are angels to whom God entrusts the fate of the kingdoms and peoples of the earth (Dan. chapters 10-12).

The Orthodox Church believes that every person has his own Guardian Angel, unless he has driven him away by an evil life. The Lord Jesus Christ said: "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones, for I say unto you, that in heaven their angels do always behold the Face of My Father Which is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).


*The Conflict of the Good and Bad Angels*

Those parts of God's creation which are inanimate and not endowed with reason have no freedom and automatically do God's willthey obey the rules He has laid down for them, which we call "the laws of nature." But those beings which God has endowed with reason, He has honored with great giftslanguage and free willand it is free will which invests each action of a free being with moral value. To be free to choose to do good and perform the will of God, not merely be forced to do so by irresistible natural laws, is essential for there to be any moral value in one's doing of good, and for obedience to the will of God to truly express love for God. However, to have the freedom to choose to do good, one must also be free to do evil, for without alternatives there can be no choice, and if there is no choice there is no moral value in doing good, it is simply an automatic reaction to irresistible force. Having the freedom to choose evil, one of the angels actually did so, and by so doing, from an angel of light became the devil. This took place before the creation of the visible world.

The devil, who is also called "Satan" or "the enemy," was created as a mighty and beautiful archangel, one of the most perfect and radiant, and for this reason he was given the name Lucifer, "the light-bearer". But when he chose not to do the will of God, he fell, lost his exalted qualities, and left his dwelling in heaven. St. Jude says: "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains, under darkness, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude v. 6). Lucifer had been richly endowed by the Creator and should have ever held his eyes on the Lord, "as the eyes of servants look unto the hand of their masters and as the eyes of a maiden unto the hand of her mistress." But instead he concentrated his attention on his own perfection, fell in love with it and was seized with pride. By doing this he left the path of truth, which united him with the Source of Life and Light, and entered the path of destruction. He forgot that he owed all to God, that all his perfections were the gift of God. He ascribed them to himself, and so seemed exceedingly great to himself. He was so blinded by the idea of his own greatness and considered, "is there any who is equal to me? Any angel ... or God, even God Himself. I myself am divine, I myself am a divinity!" Satan rose against his Lord and took with him a large number of spirits who accepted his authority. The Archangel Michael took command of the angels who remained faithful to God, forming an army of angels, and entered into conflict with the fallen spirits. Long before the creation of the material world took place this war which was waged between the angels of light and the spirits of darkness. But light conquered darkness, and the rebels were hurled into the abyss.

The fall of the mighty spirit was horrifying and inevitable. "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven," says Christ (Luke 10:18). And this fall, associated with increasing stubbornness and hardening of heart continues, further and further downwards, to this day. One sin leads to another, pride leads to envy and spite, whose weapons are lies, false witness and cunning. Darkness falls when we leave the Source of light, and this is what happened to the devil. From a light-bearing angel he was transformed into the prince of darkness. But can he not repent? Would not the merciful Lord receive his penitence? One hermit, who pondered over this problem, was granted a revelation. An angel brought him from heaven the answer that forgiveness is always possible for those who repent. The holy man repeated this comforting reply to the devil, when he appeared before him. The enemy of mankind burst into laughter and disappeared: every thought of repentance is comic to him, every suggestion of humility unbearable. Stubbornness, hardness of heart and pride which develops into a habit can reach such a level that a sinner no longer wishes to make use of the means of salvation. This is the curse of pridethat extreme pride no longer desires salvation and hence perishes.

Thus the angelic world of light divided; some angels, faithful to the Lord, remain in light, joy, love and gratitude, piously serve God and all the time continue to develop, to make progress towards perfection, to closer union with the Lord. And they have gone so far in their work and in the path of grace, and have developed such a habit of goodness, that none of them can or will rebel against God now. The leader of this holy army of heaven is the radiant Michael, whereas that other world of darkness and spite consists of Satan and the demons.

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## William Tell

Why do your posts have to be so long TER? I would love to read what you have to say, but I can't read all of that right now.
Can't you tell us what you think and give us links to sources. Just my 2 cents!

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## TER

> Why do your posts have to be so long TER? I would love to read what you have to say, but I can't read all of that right now.
> Can't you tell us what you think and give us links to sources. Just my 2 cents!


Oops, I forgot to put the source.  I will correct that right away.  Thank you for pointing that out.

The article above is long, but it actually is quite a nice detailed summary of a topic which can be hundreds of pages long.  I posted the entire thing here as an aid to those who have the interest and spare time to read it.  Also, I confess, I post it here so that if the link ever gets lost, I know where I can find it! lol

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## Sola_Fide

> *Colossians 2:18 NASB
> 
> Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,*


...

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## pcosmar

Those that watch over me are seasoned professionals. And though never tested deliberately,, they have been tested often.



> Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?


I still don't get into arguments about how many can dance on the head of a pin.

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## Terry1

I know I have a guardian angel that watches over me---I have no doubt!

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## Christian Liberty

> ...


I didn't read the article (sorry, but its long and I have stuff to do), but did anyone here advocate worshipping angels or putting visions above the Word of God?

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## Christian Liberty

To clarify because of a comment TER made in his rep comment to me, when I said "The Word of God" I meant the Bible, not Christ himself.  I'm not saying anyone here would necessarily put angels of visions above the Bible, but I wanted to clarify what exactly I was referring to.

With that said, I'm curious if SF would interpret that text to mean that God doesn't ever give visions to men.  I wouldn't interpret it that way, and I think the text contradicts such an interpretation because the passage says not to take his stand on "visions that he has seen."  So, I think what this text is saying is that visions are not the basis for our faith, not that they can't happen at all.  I've heard of Muslims converting to Christianity because they've had visions of Christ, and while I obviously cannot know with absolute certainty that these visions were God-given, I don't see any reason to doubt that at least some of them may have been real.

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## pcosmar

> Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.


When an angel speaks,, he speaks the Words of God.

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## Nang

> CONCLUSION:
> 
> Through the intercessions of our Holy Angels, may our God enlighten us and save us. Amen.


This thread is an abomination.

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## Christian Liberty

Of course, but how do you know whether you're seeing an angel or demon with any kind of certainty?

Keep in mind that Paul took the possibility of someone who is PERCEIVED as being an angel preaching a false gospel seriously enough to acknowledge the possibility in Galatians 1:8.

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## Sola_Fide

> This thread is an abomination.


I agree.  Christians don't look to anyone but Christ for intercession.

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## pcosmar

> Of course, but how do you know whether you're seeing an angel or demon with any kind of certainty?





> Beloved, believe not every spirit, *but try the spirits whether they are of God*: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.


Test them,, if you doubt them.

Does no one *know* the Word? is it written on your heart?

If it is,  you will know truth from a lie.

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## Christian Liberty

> This thread is an abomination.


I didn't actually read enough of it to see that.

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## TER

When Herod, the kinglet of Galilee, persecuted the Church, killed the apostle James, and intended to kill Peter too, then immediately the Angel of the Lord smote him-and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost (Acts 12:23).

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## TER

When the high priests put the apostles in prison, the Angel of the Lord opened the prison doors by night and brought them forth, saying: Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all of the words of this life (Acts 5:17-20; 12:7-10).

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## TER

When Philip was preaching in Samaria, an angel directed him toward Gaza to meet a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace, Queen of Ethiopia. Philip taught him of Jesus the Messiah, and baptized him. That eunuch was the first Chrsitian of his country. Thus, the angels helped the apostles in spreading the Gospel to distant countries (Acts 8:26).

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## TER

A Roman officer, Cornelius, while praying at about three o'clock on a sunny afternoon, saw in a vision an angel of God, who advised him to call Peter from Joppa. After Peter's instruction Cornelius was baptized, along with his whole household. In this case too, the angel of the Lord promoted the growth of the Church among the pagans (Acts, chapter 10).

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## TER

While St. Paul was sailing to Rome with 276 souls, a terrible storm threatened to engulf the ship. Fear not, Paul, thou must be brought before Caesar, and lo, God has given thee all them that sail with thee, which indeed happened (Acts 27:20-25).

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## TER

The New Testament is full of angels: They were hovering around Christ as their Creator, Lover and Lord from the beginning of His Incarnation, always ready to serve Him. They worshipped Him on earth as they worshipped Him in Heaven, and they loved Him on His Cross as they love Him in His Heavenly glory, with a glowing transcendent love. With gladness and attentiveness they supported His work, that is, His Church on earth. They are doing so now, and will do so until the end of the world. When He was born in a poor stony cave, there appeared a multitude of the heavenly host praising God (Luke 2:13)

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## TER

After the temptation in the desert, when the devil left Him, behold, angles came and ministered unto Him. (Matt. 4:11)

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## TER

Wherever the King is, His soldiers are also there at hand.

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## TER

Angels and ministers, spirits of grace,
Friends of the children, beholding God's face,
Moving like thought to us through the beyond,
Molded in beauty, and free from our bond.

(P. Dearmer, English Hymnal)

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## TER

Adorned with shinning beauty
All the angels of the Pantocrator
Approach the inexpressible glory of Christ
Singing to Him day and night:
Blessed art Thou, O God, forever.

(Theophane -Matins hymn, tone 6)

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## TER

*"O Holy Archangels and Angels,
Pray to God for us sinners!"*

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## PierzStyx

> When an angel speaks,, he speaks the Words of God.



How do people think many of the scriptures came? Moses wasn't personally there when God created Adam and Eve, or when Abraham sacrificed Isaac, etc. Much of the scripture is given by vision to man either directly or through the ministration of an angel (such as with Revelation/The Apocalypse.)

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## TER

To Gideon an angel appeared as an ordinary man, just as the Archangel Raphael appeared to Tobias. Gideon understood that it was an angel only he saw a miracle performed by his unknown visitor. Then he exclaimed: Alas, O Lord God! For I have seen an angel of the Lord face to face (Judges 6:12-23).

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## TER

To the wife of Manoah, who was barren and childless, an angel appeared with the news that she would have a son, Samson by name. Recounting this event to her husband, she said: A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible (Judges 13:6).

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## TER

When the Syrians surrounded the place where the prophet Elisha lived, his frightened servant exclaimed: Alas, how shall we do? And Elisha answered: Fear not, for they that be with us are more then they that be with them.

And by the prayers of Elisha, the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and then he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire around about Elisha (II Kings 6:16-17). Of course, that was the host of God's angels sent to protect the righteous man.

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## TER

To the prophet Ezekiel the angel was as the appearance of fire: from his loins even downward, fire: and from his loins even upward, as appearance of brightness, as the color of amber (Ezekiel 8:2).

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## TER

The great prophet Daniel saw an angel as a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz. His body also was like the beryl and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in color to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude. So much was Daniel frightened that he says: Therefore I was left alone …and there remained no strength in me …and I retained no strength (Dan. 10:8). It was Archangel Gabriel (Dan. 8:16)

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## TER

The same Gabriel appeared to Zacharias, the father of St. John the Baptist. And though his appearance was not so terrifying as that which Daniel saw, yet Zacharias, when he saw him, was troubled and fear fell upon him. And the angel said unto him: Fear not, Zacharias! (Luke 1:12-13).

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## TER

As to the appearance of Gabriel to the Virgin Mary at Nazareth, we presume that the appearing was in a gentle human form, unlike those terrifying forms in which the angels appeared to the prophets of old. Yet, Mary was frightened and troubled. No wonder, for not only in extraordinary appearance frightens us, but also the suddenness of it. The angel therefore encouraged the Holy Virgin by saying: Fear not, Mary! (Luke 1:29030).

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## TER

When our Lord Jesus was born, an angel appeared to the shepherds at Bethlehem. And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them: Fear not (Matt. 28:3-5).

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## TER

The myrrh bearing women at the sepulcher of the risen Lord saw an angel: His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: And for fear of him the keepers (of the tomb) did shake, and became as dead men. To the women, however, the angel said: Fear not ye! (Matt. 28:3-5).

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## TER

In no other sacred book is so much written about angels as in the Book of Revelation. St. John saw a multitude around the throne of the Highest. He describes them as clad in pure and white linen, having their breasts girded with golden girdles (Rev. 15:6). Very striking is the description of one of them: I saw, says John, another mighty angel came down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire …And he cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth (Rev. 10: 1, 3).

Clothed with a cloud! Remember what the Lord Jesus said about His Second Coming: Then, said He, shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (Matt. 24:30). Thus, the clouds of heaven mean multitudes of angels.

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## TER

All the appearances of angels are just appearances, not pertaining to their nature; they are pure spirits, and all their power and beauty is spiritual, not material. As our sacred poet says of them: 

"The material and intelligent angels hast Thou created, 
O Lord, before the visible world;
 They ceaselessly cry unto Thee over there:
 Bless the Lord all ye works of the Lord. 
Sing unto Him great praises forever." 
(Octoechos Matins, Hymn 8, tone 3).

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## TER

*The angels of the Lord do not want to be worshipped.* When an angel showed St. John the new Paradise in Heaven with all its marvels, St. John fell at the feet of the angel to worship him. But the angel did not allow that, saying:

* Do it not, for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God (Rev. 22:8-9). Yea, we worship God alone.*

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## TER

*The Activity of the Angels
*



The activity of the angels is _twofold_: *in Heaven to glorify God, and on earth to carry out God's orders concerning men.*

Says St. Gregory the Theologian: "Some of those intelligences are standing before the great God, and others cooperate in holding the whole world." And Damascene: "They are powerful, and ready to accomplish the will of God, and they appear anywhere and instantly, according to their subtle nature, wherever God orders them."

*  A.* We may consider the angels, in the first place, as *messengers of good news*. Twice there appeared an angel to Hagar, Abraham's handmaid, consoling her because her mistress. Sarah dealt harshly with her. "Behold, said the angels, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard Thine affliction (Gen. 16:7; cf. Gen. 21:17). Ishmael became the progenitor of the Ishmaelites; Arabs, who are also called Hagarenes.

    Three angels appeared in the plains of Mamre with a message to childless Abraham, that he shall have a son, which indeed happened the next year (Gen. 18: 10). Thus Isaac, the progenitor of the Jews, was born.

    When Abraham was ready to sacrifice his only son Isaac, according to the order of God who wanted to test his fidelity, an angel of Heaven prevented him from doing so. Said the angel: Now I know that thou fearest God (Gen. 22:12). God Himself, however, later offered His only Son Jesus Christ, to be slain like a lamb to save us (Eph. 5:2).

* B.* The angels of God *save the men of God*. In the corrupt city of Sodom there lived a man of God, Lot. When Sodom was doomed to destruction, God sent two angels to save Lot and his family (Gen. 19:1-22).

    An angel saved Jacob from the revenge of his brother Essau (Gen. 32:1). And before his death Jacob spoke of the Angel which redeemed me from all evil (Gen. 48:16).

    An Angel saved the three youths in Babylon from death in the midst of the burning fiery furnace, into which they were thrown, because they renounced the worship of idols in place of the only true God (Dan. 3:12-30). Every Matins service we are reminded of this strange event by the seventh and eighth irmoi of the canons. And angel saved Daniel from the den of lions into which he was put on account of his strong faith in the one God. The lions, however, behaved as lambs. To the astonished King Darius, Daniel said: My God hath sent His angel, and hath shut the lions mouths, that they have not hurt me, forasmuch as before Him innocence was found in me (Dan. 6:16-23).

* C.* The angels are *executors of God's judgments*. We quote only a few instances: The city of Sodom was wallowing in most horrible vices (homosexuality, sodomy). The Lord sent two angels to save the only righteous man in Sodom, Lot. They came to Lot and urged him to get out of that city, for the Lord sent us to destroy it. And they razed Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes, by brimstone and fire from the Lord out of Heaven (Gen. 19:12-25). King David, otherwise a great glorifier of God, sinned once against the Lord God, and God sent an angel with a drawn sword in his hand - and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men, until David repented and cried to God for mercy (I Chron. 21:1-17). Sennacherib, King of Assyria, beleaguered Jerusalem with a mighty army. He and his dukes blasphemed the Lord God, called King Hezekiah and his people to surrender. But after Hezekiah prostrated before God and prayed in the temple, the angel of the Lord went forth and smote in the camp of Assyrians a hundred and four scores and five thousand. King Sennacherib fled to Nineveh, where he was killed by his sons (Isaiah, chapters 36 & 37). The inspired Psalmist, knowing from history and from his own experience the part which the angels play in the life of a man or of a nation, speaks: The angel of the Lord will encamp round about them that fear Him, and will deliver them (Ps. 33:7). No evils shall come nigh thee, and no scourge shall come nigh unto thy dwelling. For He shall give His angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. On their hands shall they bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone (Ps. 90:10-12). Bless the Lord, he His angels, mighty in strength, that perform His word, to hear the voice of His words (Ps. 103:20).

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## Nang

> How do people think many of the scriptures came? Moses wasn't personally there when God created Adam and Eve, or when Abraham sacrificed Isaac, etc. Much of the scripture is given by vision to man either directly or through the ministration of an angel (such as with Revelation/The Apocalypse.)



II Timothy 3:16

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## TER

*The Guardian Angels*



The angel of the Lord will encamp round about them that fear Him, and will deliver them 
(Ps. 33:7). 

No evils shall come nigh thee, and no scourge shall come nigh unto thy dwelling. For He shall give His angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. On their hands shall they bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone 
(Ps. 90:10-12). 

Bless the Lord, he His angels, mighty in strength, that perform His word, to hear the voice of His words 
(Ps. 103:20). 
By the above words the Psalmist confirms the common belief that *angels protect and help both nations and individuals.* In ancient times, Michael the Archangel was considered as the guardian angel of the people of Israel. Joshua saw him at Jericho, and heard him saying that he was the captain of the Lord's host (Joshua 5:14-15). And to Daniel, the Archangel Gabriel spoke of the Archangel Michael, saying: At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people (Dan. 12:1). The Apostle Jude writes of Michael the Archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the holy of Moses (Jude 9). As guardian of the people, he was also the guardian even of the dead body of their leader Moses.

*The Fathers of the Church taught that there are guardian angels of nations, countries, churches, as well as of individuals* (Rev. 2). Yea, even of elements, stars and planets. St. John of the "Ladder" testifies of his personal guardian angel: "Whenever I was longing for a greater advancement in spiritual life, the angel appeared in such a case and enlightened me."

And here is what St. Basil the Great says: 

"The angel will not retreat from us, unless we drive him away by our evil deeds. As the smoke drives bees away, and stench the doves, even so our stinking sin drives away from us the angel who protects our life."

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## TER

Stars of the morning, so gloriously bright
Filled with celestial splendor and light
These that--where night never follows day-
Raise the 'Thrice Holy' song ever and age
Then when the earth was first poised in mid space,
Then, when the planets first sped on their race,
Then, when were ended the six days employ,
Then, all the sons of God shouted for joy.
    (Joseph the Hymnographer-Translation in the English Hymnal).

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## pcosmar

> The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. *He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John*,  who testifies to everything he sawthat is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.  Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.


Angels are servants. Servants of God and servants for us. Often as messengers, but also as protectors.

And they also watch over the 7 Churches. (for those that think there is one,, reconsider)



> The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels[e] of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

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## pcosmar

For all in this thread,, and other threads of contention..

*Never, Never, Never* try to force scripture to fit your theology.

Let the Word reshape your theology. The writings of scholarly men,, the traditions of men can be misleading. They write from their understanding,, which may sometimes be helpful,and may also be misleading.

Let the Word and the Spirit teach you.

We all,, only see part of the picture and that dimly. myself included. But my experience is,, that God has corrected some of my misconceptions in the past. and I have had to readjust my thinking accordingly.

Meditate on the Word,,  and not on the writings of others about the Word.

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## Terry1

> Angels are servants. Servants of God and servants for us. Often as messengers, but also as protectors.
> 
> And they also watch over the 7 Churches. (for those that think there is one,, reconsider)


You just inspired me to start another thread on the seven churches.

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## Dr.3D

I'm still waiting for somebody to explain how the sacrifice of Jesus can save fallen angels.

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## robert9712000

> I'm still waiting for somebody to explain how the sacrifice of Jesus can save fallen angels.


 I don't think angels can be saved in the same way as mankind. The way someone, of whom i look up too, explained it too me, was that the big difference which separates men from angels, is that men live in time and angels live out of time, so that when angels were made their decision too follow God was made instantly and they will forever be either with God or separated from God.

 It's a odd concept to think about. Thats why i think there will be no growth in heaven, that whatever growth you gain here on earth will be all that you will ever be.

Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.


1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

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## Dr.3D

> I don't think angels can be saved in the same way as mankind. The way someone, of whom i look up too, explained it too me, was that the big difference which separates men from angels, is that men live in time and angels live out of time, so that when angels were made their decision too follow God was made instantly and they will forever be either with God or separated from God.
> 
>  It's a odd concept to think about. Thats why i think there will be no growth in heaven, that whatever growth you gain here on earth will be all that you will ever be.
> 
> Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
> 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
> 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you... that's just as I thought.   I was told here, otherwise.

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## TER

> Thank you... that's just as I thought.   I was told here, otherwise.


Dr. 3D, my post which you are referencing does not imply that demons will be saved.   The demons know and believe Jesus is the Son of God.  They know right away, as can be seen in the instances in the gospel narratives where they recognize Him immediately and cry out to Him as the Son of God.  They know and believe He is the Savior of the world and that He died for the sins of the world.  So the simplified gospel of 'believe that Jesus is the Son of God and died for your sins' does NOT save the demons just as it does not save us, for our entrance into the Kingdom requires _repentance_ and _works of love_.  By this Christ will judge us, not simply because we believe what the demons believe.  Belief is more then mental assent of Who Christ is and that He died for our sins.  The demons are the perfect example of why Sola Fide is incorrect.

The reasons why the demons cannot be saved by Christ's death on the cross is because_ they refuse to repent_.  They do not exist in the same time as we do but rather in aenoic time as do all angels, and their wills since the fall remain fixed and immutable as either being according to the will of God or against the will of God.  It is their fixed will to refuse to repent which will result in their eternal damnation and not because they do not believe Jesus is the Son of God or that He died as Savior of all of creation.

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## Christian Liberty

I have a couple of issues with TER's refutation of sola fide (The doctrine, not the poster, I'm honestly uncertain which one TER was referring to but it probably doesn't matter.

First of all, Christ didn't die for the demons.  So, of course they couldn't be saved.  That's just a given.  Now, I understand that an effectual atonement isn't exactly a popular idea around here, but all professing Christians would acknowledge that Christ's blood is essential for salvation.  So, the demons don't have that... they can't be saved no matter what they believe.

Second of all, the demons believe the propositions of the gospel, but they don't trust in these propositions to save them (as mentioned above... they can't.)  The demons actively work against God and his Gospel.  I see no reason a human being could not be in the same boat (knowing that gospel propositions are true but choosing to oppose them and fight God anyway) and I doubt anyone would suggest that such a person is saved.  

Third of all, with the above being said, I would disagree with a person who says that merely believing in the facts of the gospel is proof of one's salvation.  One can believe the facts of the gospel, yet choose to actively oppose the gospel (see above) or refuse to trust in the gospel for their salvation.  I would, however, say that all who TRUST in Christ's death alone for their salvation is saved.  

Fourth of all, James is clear that such a faith is living, that it will be accompanied by works.  But, it is not the works themselves that save.  Someone who has no works is not damned in spite of trusting in Christ's blood for their salvation, rather, such a man never trusted in Christ's blood for their salvation in the first place.

Ephesians 2:8-10 clearly shows these events as occurring in the order I am describing them (Faith as the means of receiving grace first, God-given works as the inevitable result second.)

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## Dr.3D

> Dr. 3D, my post which you are referencing does not imply that demons will be saved.   The demons know and believe Jesus is the Son of God.  They know right away, as can be seen in the instances in the gospel narratives where they recognize Him immediately and cry out to Him as the Son of God.  They know and believe He is the Savior of the world and that He died for the sins of the world.  So the simplified gospel of 'believe that Jesus is the Son of God and died for your sins' does NOT save the demons just as it does not save us, for our entrance into the Kingdom requires _repentance_ and _works of love_.  By this Christ will judge us, not simply because we believe what the demons believe.  Belief is more then mental assent of Who Christ is and that He died for our sins.  The demons are the perfect example of why Sola Fide is incorrect.
> 
> The reasons why the demons cannot be saved by Christ's death on the cross is because_ they refuse to repent_.  They do not exist in the same time as we do but rather in aenoic time as do all angels, and their wills since the fall remain fixed and immutable as either being according to the will of God or against the will of God.  It is their fixed will to refuse to repent which will result in their eternal damnation and not because they do not believe Jesus is the Son of God or that He died as Savior of all of creation.


They can't be saved because Christ didn't die to save them.  It wouldn't matter if they believed He is the Son of God and died to take punishment for the sins of mankind, because He didn't die for their sins.   So bringing them into this discussion is a moot subject.   Sure they know who he is, but it doesn't matter because they can't accept a gift that wasn't offered to them.

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## Christian Liberty

> They can't be saved because Christ didn't die to save them.  It wouldn't matter if they believed He is the Son of God and died to take punishment for the sins of mankind, because He didn't die for their sins.   So bringing them into this discussion is a moot subject.   Sure they know who he is, but it doesn't matter because they can't accept a gift that wasn't offered to them.


OK, I've got a question for you:

You correctly conclude that a demon cannot be saved no matter what he believes, because Christ did not die for them.

Would you similarly agree that all those who Christ DID die for will ultimately be brought to saving faith?  If not, why the inconsistency?  If a lack of Christ's blood leads to no hope of salvation, why does Christ's blood leave any hope of damnation?

----------


## Dr.3D

> OK, I've got a question for you:
> 
> You correctly conclude that a demon cannot be saved no matter what he believes, because Christ did not die for them.
> 
> Would you similarly agree that all those who Christ DID die for will ultimately be brought to saving faith?  If not, why the inconsistency?  If a lack of Christ's blood leads to no hope of salvation, why does Christ's blood leave any hope of damnation?


I have no problem with that whatsoever.   He didn't die for those who choose not to accept His gift.

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## TER

> They can't be saved because Christ didn't die to save them.  It wouldn't matter if they believed He is the Son of God and died to take punishment for the sins of mankind, because He didn't die for their sins.   So bringing them into this discussion is a moot subject.   Sure they know who he is, but it doesn't matter because they can't accept a gift that wasn't offered to them.


Christ died to save _everyone_, only not everyone wants to be saved.  They rather live in the darkness then repent of their sins.  Instead of choosing love over hate and light over darkness, they choose the opposite.  They choose to wallow in their own sins and passions.  If they do not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, it is not because God does not desire for them to come to Him and be saved, for God is love and desire all to come and be saved, but rather because of their own will they refuse to accept this gift, choosing themselves over God and darkness over light.

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## Christian Liberty

> I have no problem with that whatsoever.   He didn't die for those who choose not to accept His gift.


Good answer.  So here's the next question:

You believe in Christ and accept his gracious offer of salvation.  So do I.  But, most other people don't.  What is the difference between us and them?  Is there something better in us, or was our repentance caused by God?

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## Dr.3D

> Christ died to save _everyone_, only not everyone wants to be saved.  They rather live in the darkness then repent of their sins.  Instead of choosing love over hate and light over darkness, they choose the opposite.  They choose to wallow in their own sins and passions.  If they do not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, it is not because God does not desire for them to come to Him and be saved, for God is love and desire all to come and be saved, but rather because of their own will they refuse to accept this gift, choosing themselves over God and darkness over light.


Show me where in the scriptures is says Jesus died so that demons can be saved by accepting a gift that wasn't offered to them.   Jesus died to save mankind, not fallen angels.

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## Dr.3D

> Good answer.  So here's the next question:
> 
> You believe in Christ and accept his gracious offer of salvation.  So do I.  But, most other people don't.  What is the difference between us and them?  Is there something better in us, or was our repentance caused by God?


God drew us to Him and we accepted His gift.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> Christ died to save _everyone_, only not everyone wants to be saved.  They rather live in the darkness then repent of their sins.  Instead of choosing love over hate and light over darkness, they choose the opposite.  They choose to wallow in their own sins and passions.  If they do not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, it *is not because God does not desire for them to come to Him and be saved, for God is love and desire all to come and be saved,* but rather because of their own will they refuse to accept this gift, choosing themselves over God and darkness over light.


There's some debate over the use of the term "desire" even among Calvinists (To be clear, I am not necessarily saying that Dr. 3D is a Calvinist, and by bringing this up I am by no means trying to label Dr. 3D in any way that he would not label himself.)  Some Calvinists believe that there's a sense in which God wants the reprobate to be saved, while others would not.  I certainly won't claim to be able to totally grasp God's mind, but I would tend to agree with James White on this issue and say that God doesn't desire the salvation of the reprobate, because if he did he could bring it to pass.  But there could be more to that.  I don't know for sure.

With that being said, if Christ's death isn't enough to save a man, what is?  Is there something within yourself that needs to be added to Christ's finished work?  Why did Christ say "It is finished" before he died?

----------


## Christian Liberty

> God drew us to Him and we accepted His gift.


OK.  I don't disagree with this.  But, why did we accept his gift, and others did not?  Is it God's drawing that made the difference, or our own willpower?

----------


## Nang

> our entrance into the Kingdom requires _repentance_ and _works_


_

False gospel.







			
				The reasons why the demons cannot be saved by Christ's death on the cross is because they refuse to repent.
			
		

Angels were never created in the image of God; thus are not subject to repentance nor recipients of grace.

This thread is a farce and an abomination.



_

----------


## Dr.3D

> OK.  I don't disagree with this.  But, why did we accept his gift, and others did not?  Is it God's drawing that made the difference, or our own willpower?


It's a decision made by the individual.   Sure God knows in advance what that decision is going to be, but it is still a conscious decision made by that person.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> It's a decision made by the individual.   Sure God knows in advance what that decision is going to be, but it is still a conscious decision made by that person.


OK, I think I know what you're getting at here, but I want to be clear that its technically possible for a believer in unconditional election to make the statement you made.

Let me clarify the question further:

Why did you choose to accept God's gift and someone else didn't?  Did God give you your faith or did you create it yourself?  And if you say you created it yourself, how can you say God created _you._  Even the fact that God created us refutes libertarian free will.

I'm a compatibilist for this reason.  In the temporal sense, we make real choices, and we are responsible for those choices.  God doesn't cause people to make bad choices.  But God did create the sinners, and he does independently work on the hearts of those sinners for whom Christ died in order to bring them to himself.

----------


## Nang

> It's a decision made by the individual.   Sure God knows in advance what that decision is going to be, but it is still a conscious decision made by that person.



Please cite scripture that teaches individual, decisional regeneration.  Do a careful word study of biblical language.

The word "choose" is ONLY made in reference to the choices of Sovereign God Almighty.

Never are the words "choose" or "accept" used in reference to sinners determining to believe in God, or not.  Never.

----------


## TER

> Show me where in the scriptures is says Jesus died so that demons can be saved by accepting a gift that wasn't offered to them.   Jesus died to same mankind, not fallen angels.


Jesus is the Savior of Creation, all of creation.  The demons are part of this creation, though bodiless and thus do not have the ability to change as we do (changeability is a corporeal attribute since the fall came and distorted all of creation).  The demons are in this regard fixed in their will to oppose God.  Thus while God's love is extended to all, those who refuse this love by their own will shall not be saved. 

The Scriptures are written about the good news of Christ to man, not about the angels or demons.  Their relationship with God is not the subject of the gospels written by the evangelists, so it is not surprising that these topics where not directly addressed in the Gospel.  But nevertheless, the Holy Spirit has never left the Church and we can learn from the Saints and the Holy Fathers of the Church, men and women who have been revealed by God truths which were not formally elucidated or explained in the Scriptures with regards to the spiritual realm and the heavenly hosts.  Of course, you are free to ignore or denounce these teachings.  I have not.  So we will agree to disagree.

----------


## Dr.3D

> OK, I think I know what you're getting at here, but I want to be clear that its technically possible for a believer in unconditional election to make the statement you made.
> 
> Let me clarify the question further:
> 
> Why did you choose to accept God's gift and someone else didn't?  Did God give you your faith or did you create it yourself?  And if you say you created it yourself, how can you say God created _you._  Even the fact that God created us refutes libertarian free will.
> 
> I'm a compatibilist for this reason.  In the temporal sense, we make real choices, and we are responsible for those choices.  God doesn't cause people to make bad choices.  But God did create the sinners, and he does independently work on the hearts of those sinners for whom Christ died in order to bring them to himself.


I did not create my own faith, I am not capable of doing that.   I was created with the ability to accept the gift of salvation.   I believe everybody has that ability, but can make the wrong decision out of spite or because they have a rebellious spirit.   It's much like a kid who won't do what his parents want him to.  He has the ability to make the right decision, but wishes to rebel against authority.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> God drew us to Him and we accepted His gift.


That would give man a ground of boasting,  which Paul says the very concept of grace denies:



> Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB
> 
> For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves,* it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast*.


If salvation was based on our "acceptance", rather than God's will in choosing, then man would have something to boast about.  If Arminianism were true, why does one man choose God and another man doesn't?   Is he smarter?  Is he more spiritually sensitive?  There is something in THE MAN that makes the difference, which gives him a ground of boasting. 

True grace destroys any ground of boasting.  Salvation is ALL of God, and NONE of man.

----------


## Dr.3D

If we are going to have a pile on, I'm off to bed.

I just wanted to address the subject of the salvation of fallen angels and the sacrifice of Jesus.

----------


## TER

lol, looks like the hornet's nest has stirred up again.  Good night everyone.  Don't know why I bothered!

I would ask if a new thread was started so as not to derail my (apparently abominable) thread.  I hope out of courtesy this might be done.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> Please cite scripture that teaches individual, decisional regeneration.  Do a careful word study of biblical language.
> 
> The word "choose" is ONLY made in reference to the choices of Sovereign God Almighty.
> 
> Never are the words "choose" or "accept" used in reference to sinners determining to believe in God, or not.  Never.


Depending on your definition, the "choose this day who you will serve" in Joshua could count.  Of course, I realize this was talking about choosing which false god they wanted to worship, but that would still be choosing "not" to believe in God and choosing to believe in something else instead.  And, while Acts 17:30 doesn't use that terminology, its still a clear presentation of the gospel and a command to respond.

I don't really like terms like "decision" "accept" "accepting God's gift" or "free will."  But these terms do not necessarily, in and of themselves, convey Arminianism.  They usually do, but not necessarily.  While I don't like the term "free will" I do not disagree with "free will" if its defined the way my (Calvinistic) mother defines it.

On the other hand, I don't really have a problem with the word "Choose."  While that's another word that Arminians bring to the table with a whole lot of Arminian presuppositions behind it, the word itself doesn't really say anything about the "free will" of the person making the choice.  

I guess the real issue here is the *autonomy* of the will.  I believe there's a sense in which people do legitimately make choices.  I don't think God forces anyone to do anything.  God didn't force Pharaoh to commit the sins he committed.  But God did ultimately create each person's will, exactly as he intended it.  Everyone's will is naturally at emnity with God, as per Romans 3:10-11.  Only if God monergistically changes a person's heart can that person "choose" God, because God irresistibly CAUSED them to "Choose" to believe in God.

And, of course, we also know that there is no way to disconnect faith with the atonement.  Christ's righteousness is received through faith, but the atonement is the actual basis on which God accepts us, not faith.  Faith is the means by which we receive Christ's perfect righteousness, which is the basis for our redemption.

So... I obviously agree that the Arminian assumptions that often come with some of these terms is erroneous, and I'd prefer to use less biased terms for that reason, but I do think its possible to use those types of terms without being technically inaccurate, if that makes sense.

Or... when you preach the gospel to people do you tell them that they don't have to make any decision at all?

----------


## TER

> If we are going to have a pile on, I'm off to bed.
> 
> I just wanted to address the subject of the salvation of fallen angels and the sacrifice of Jesus.


Good night Dr. 3D.  We had a nice discussion going until the hornets showed up.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> I did not create my own faith, I am not capable of doing that.   I was created with the ability to accept the gift of salvation.   I believe everybody has that ability, but can make the wrong decision out of spite or because they have a rebellious spirit.   It's much like a kid who won't do what his parents want him to.  He has the ability to make the right decision, but wishes to rebel against authority.


If Christ only died for those who believe in him, how does everyone have the ability to choose to believe in him?

----------


## Dr.3D

> Good night Dr. 3D.  We had a nice discussion going until the hornets showed up.


Well, I was enjoying my discussion with FF too.   

Have a nice evening.

----------


## Nang

> I did not create my own faith, I am not capable of doing that.   I was created with the ability to accept the gift of salvation.   I believe everybody has that ability, but can make the wrong decision out of spite or because they have a rebellious spirit.   It's much like a kid who won't do what his parents want him to.  He has the ability to make the right decision, but wishes to rebel against authority.


Due to the sin of Adam, man has lost all such ability to live forever, or decide to be saved to live forever.

The only ability of choice sinners possess, is to choose to sin and then die.  All men are enslaved to sin, death, and the devil, and cannot function otherwise.  Romans 3:19-20

God alone can choose life for sinners, and that only because He accepts them in His grace . . . not vice/versa.

God chooses us and accepts us.  The opposite teaching is completely and totally unbiblical nonsense.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> lol, looks like the hornet's nest has stirred up again.  Good night everyone.  Don't know why I bothered!
> 
> I would ask if a new thread was started so as not to derail my (apparently abominable) thread.  I hope out of courtesy this might be done.


I didn't mean to hijack this thread (and I think I've been respectful and courteous in this thread) but inevitably the gospel is going to come up in threads like this.  If the mods want to split the gospel discussion off from the rest I'd be OK with that, and that would probably be a good idea.  But as long as people are still responding to me here, I am going to reply.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> lol, looks like the hornet's nest has stirred up again.  Good night everyone.  Don't know why I bothered!
> 
> I would ask if a new thread was started so as not to derail my (apparently abominable) thread.  I hope out of courtesy this might be done.


I have no respect for people who ask for moderation on a website that is based in freedom. What a joke.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> I have no respect for people who ask for moderation on a website that is based in freedom. What a joke.


He actually didn't ask for moderation.  I guess I sort of did, because I'd rather the comments be moved than suppressed, ignored, or deleted.

----------


## Dr.3D

> If Christ only died for those who believe in him, how does everyone have the ability to choose to believe in him?


They don't have the ability to believe in him.   Only those who have that ability will choose to believe in him.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> They don't have the ability to believe in him.   Only those who have that ability will choose to believe in him.


So where does that ability come from?  And if it comes from God, what is your issue (if any) with unconditional election?

----------


## Dr.3D

> So where does that ability come from?  And if it comes from God, what is your issue (if any) with unconditional election?


I have no issue with it as long as it is conveyed as a decision made by those who have the ability to accept the gift.  Yes, some folks were created without that ability.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> They don't have the ability to believe in him.   Only those who have that ability will choose to believe in him.


Correct.   Only the ones that God has chosen from eternity and the ones God grants repentance to will accept the gospel:



> 2 Timothy 2:25 NASB
> 
> with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, *if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth*,


God is the one that chooses His people and grants them repentance.   Salvation is ALL of God, and NONE of man.

----------


## Nang

> Depending on your definition, the "choose this day who you will serve" in Joshua could count.  Of course, I realize this was talking about choosing which false god they wanted to worship, but that would still be choosing "not" to believe in God and choosing to believe in something else instead.  And, while Acts 17:30 doesn't use that terminology, its still a clear presentation of the gospel and a command to respond.
> 
> I don't really like terms like "decision" "accept" "accepting God's gift" or "free will."  But these terms do not necessarily, in and of themselves, convey Arminianism.  They usually do, but not necessarily.  While I don't like the term "free will" I do not disagree with "free will" if its defined the way my (Calvinistic) mother defines it.
> 
> On the other hand, I don't really have a problem with the word "Choose."  While that's another word that Arminians bring to the table with a whole lot of Arminian presuppositions behind it, the word itself doesn't really say anything about the "free will" of the person making the choice.  
> 
> I guess the real issue here is the *autonomy* of the will.  I believe there's a sense in which people do legitimately make choices.  I don't think God forces anyone to do anything.  God didn't force Pharaoh to commit the sins he committed.  But God did ultimately create each person's will, exactly as he intended it.  Everyone's will is naturally at emnity with God, as per Romans 3:10-11.  Only if God monergistically changes a person's heart can that person "choose" God, because God irresistibly CAUSED them to "Choose" to believe in God.
> 
> And, of course, we also know that there is no way to disconnect faith with the atonement.  Christ's righteousness is received through faith, but the atonement is the actual basis on which God accepts us, not faith.  Faith is the means by which we receive Christ's perfect righteousness, which is the basis for our redemption.
> ...



Of course I do not!  It is not biblical!

And it makes no sense at all, to use terms in ways that the Word of God never uses them, just to tickle the ears of sinners.

The beginning of the gospel message is to reiterate the Law, that commands men to believe and repent, and then men must be told they cannot ever hope to obey this Law to be saved.

Solution?

The good news that Jesus Christ fulfilled this requirement of the Law on behalf of those the Father gave Him and sent Him to redeem.  Only He did for men, what they could never do for themselves.

You will eventually find that "Compatibilism" is a weak and untenable position to take.

----------


## Dr.3D

TER would rather we not mess up his thread any further, so I'm going to respect his wishes and stop here.

----------


## Nang

> TER would rather we not mess up his thread any further, so I'm going to respect his wishes and stop here.



His thread was an abomination . . . at least God is bringing some truth out of it.

And TER does not respect others wishes, so why should we respect his threads that break the 2nd commandment and troll quotes from men abusing the true meaning of Holy Scripture?

----------


## Nang

> I have no issue with it as long as it is conveyed as a decision made by those who have the ability to accept the gift.  Yes, some folks were created without that ability.



No man has the ability to accept God's grace.

That is why those who will be saved by faith, must first be born from above.  John 3:3

----------


## Dr.3D

> His thread was an abomination . . . at least God is bringing some truth out of it.
> 
> And TER does not respect others wishes, so why should we respect his threads that break the 2nd commandment and troll quotes from men abusing the true meaning of Holy Scripture?


Perhaps because we are Christians and love each other.   Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.  Two wrongs don't make a right.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Perhaps because we are Christians and love each other.   Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.  Two wrongs don't make a right.


But true Christians, like Paul, know that the very concept of grace denies that man has a ground of boasting.  Do you believe this?

----------


## Nang

> Perhaps because we are Christians and love each other.   Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.  Two wrongs don't make a right.



Preach that to TER.  

He is the one who ignores and refuses to comply with the requests of Christians who express sensitivity to and rebuke his idolatrous threads.

No faithful Christian is required to love a false teacher, and TER is teaching falsely, and until he repents of his ways, he is owed no respect or accommodation of charity from me.

----------


## RJB

TER Your Angel thread made me think of the bolded line from this song.




> God & Man at Table are Sat Down
> 
> 
>  (words & music by Robert J. Stamps):
> 
> O, welcome all ye noble saints of old 
> As now before your very eyes unfold 
> The wonders all so long ago foretold. 
> God and man at table are sat down. 
> ...

----------


## Christian Liberty

> Of course I do not!  It is not biblical!
> 
> And it makes no sense at all, to use terms in ways that the Word of God never uses them, just to tickle the ears of sinners.
> 
> The beginning of the gospel message is to reiterate the Law, that commands men to believe and repent, and then men must be told they cannot ever hope to obey this Law to be saved.
> 
> Solution?
> 
> The good news that Jesus Christ fulfilled this requirement of the Law on behalf of those the Father gave Him and sent Him to redeem.  Only He did for men, what they could never do for themselves.


I'm with you.  I think you're using the Biblical terminology.  but I think the way terms are being used, rather than just the terms themselves, have to be established before accusing someone of preaching a "false gospel."

To give you an example, my mom would say she believes in "free will."  But she's not an Arminian.  When she uses the term "free will" she means "When man is confronted with the gospel he must choose to believe or not to believe, and he is held responsible for that decision despite the fact that he cannot believe unless God causes him to do so by his grace alone."

Now, I dislike the term free will.  But the essence of what my mom believes is accurate, even though I would argue that "free will" is a weak term that usually has Arminian implications.


> You will eventually find that "Compatibilism" is a weak and untenable position to take.


Does man choose to sin or does God predestine man's actions?

I would answer this question with a simple "yes."

If you agree with me, you'd be a compatibilist by my definition of that term (I may be using weak terminology as well, I don't know.)

If you disagree with me, why?




> But true Christians, like Paul, know that the very concept of grace denies that man has a ground of boasting.  Do you believe this?


I think he does.  I wouldn't use the terms he's using, but I think he's confessing the same gospel as we are.  

So far, Dr. 3D has said:

That Christ did not die for those who refuse to accept him 

That some people do not have the ability to accept him

That those who do have the ability to accept him only have that ability because God gives it to them.

Sounds like he's affirming unconditional election and limited atonement to me

----------


## Christian Liberty

> Preach that to TER.  
> 
> He is the one who ignores and refuses to comply with the requests of Christians who express sensitivity to and rebuke his idolatrous threads.
> 
> No faithful Christian is* required to love a false teacher,* and TER is teaching falsely, and until he repents of his ways, he is owed no respect or accommodation of charity from me.


Can you give me a scripture text for the bold?  I thought we were supposed to love our enemies.

Although an interesting question would be, do Catholics and EOs fall under 1 Corinthians 5:11?  I don't personally think so, since it seems obvious (to me) that their church doesn't teach anything even remotely near the Biblical gospel.  So, I think these people should be treated the same way as any other unbeliever, with love yet also a willingness to expose them as agents of darkness so God may cause them to believe the true gospel through Biblical preaching.  I wouldn't put them in the same category as someone who is associating themselves with Biblical churches yet live in unrepentant sin or disrupt the flocks.  

But: I'm open to correction on this point.

----------


## lilymc

Another thread bites the dust.

----------


## Nang

> Another thread bites the dust.



Good.  It deserved to die . . .

----------


## lilymc

> Good.  It deserved to die . . .


Well, I was looking forward to a discussion about angels. 

It is possible to disagree with someone without derailing a thread, you know.

----------


## Nang

> Can you give me a scripture text for the bold?  I thought we were supposed to love our enemies.
> 
> Although an interesting question would be, do Catholics and EOs fall under 1 Corinthians 5:11?  I don't personally think so, since it seems obvious (to me) that their church doesn't teach anything even remotely near the Biblical gospel.  So, I think these people should be treated the same way as any other unbeliever, with love yet also a willingness to expose them as agents of darkness so God may cause them to believe the true gospel through Biblical preaching.  I wouldn't put them in the same category as someone who is associating themselves with Biblical churches yet live in unrepentant sin or disrupt the flocks.  
> 
> But: I'm open to correction on this point.


EO's and the RCC do not proclaim salvation by grace through faith alone, but both teach works-righteousness, which is no better than the original lie told by Satan to Adam in the garden.  Thus, they are enemies to the true gospel of saving grace.

The only way to love our enemies and the enemies of God, is to stand firmly for TRUTH.

Proclaiming the TRUTH of the gospel of Jesus Christ will do its own work, and separate the sheep from the goats.

But those of us who hold to the Sovereignty of God must never compromise with idolatry, lies, wickedness, blasphemies, or strange gospels . . . not in the slightest degree!

And it is not easy, for the world at large, who do not comprehend the depth of the spiritual battle being waged, most often judge us as being the bad guys.

So be it.  We answer to God Almighty every night, when we commit our souls to His keeping and pray for His will and His fruit to issue forth from our faithful witness.

----------


## pcosmar

> If we are going to have a pile on, I'm off to bed.
> 
> I just wanted to address the subject of the salvation of fallen angels and the sacrifice of Jesus.


To my understanding it is very simple.

Angels were created as servants. They were not given  choice. They were created to be what they were. Until Lucifer rebelled.

Man was created as a companion. and was created in Gods image.

God wants a people that will choose to love him. And also to show Lucifer's sin for all eternity to see. 

This temporal world is as much a trial for Lucifer and his followers as it is for Gods people,, with evidence on display for all eternity.. So that all creation will see the justice in Lucifer's punishment.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> EO's and the RCC do not proclaim salvation by grace through faith alone, but both teach works-righteousness, which is no better than the original lie told by Satan to Adam in the garden.  Thus, they are enemies to the true gospel of saving grace.


This seems clear to me.  With that being said, I do not think they would count as one's being "Called a believer" in the sense that 1 Corinthians 5:11 says.  Would you agree with me there?




> The only way to love our enemies and the enemies of God, is to stand firmly for TRUTH.


I understand.  But you said we weren't obligated to love TER because he's a false teacher.  While I agree with your accusation that he's a false teacher, I still believe we are obligated to love him (Which I believe includes preaching the true gospel to him.)



> Proclaiming the TRUTH of the gospel of Jesus Christ will do its own work, and separate the sheep from the goats.


I agree.



> But those of us who hold to the Sovereignty of God must never compromise with idolatry, lies, wickedness, blasphemies, or strange gospels . . . not in the slightest degree!


You know I agree with this, but just to make sure we've covered all our right bases, at what point do you cross the line from this principled stand into OTC type seculsion?  Obviously none of us have perfect understanding and thus we cannot demand that everyone with whom we fellowship have perfect understanding either.  At the same point, we should not compromise?  Where's the balance between these two things?  (From what I've seen, I think James White does a good job with this, at least for the most part.)



> And it is not easy, for the world at large, who do not comprehend the depth of the spiritual battle being waged, most often judge us as being the bad guys.


Of course.  The world judges not righteous judgment.




> So be it.  We answer to God Almighty every night, when we commit our souls to His keeping and pray for His will and His fruit to issue forth from our faithful witness.


Amen.

----------


## RJB

> EO's and the RCC do not proclaim salvation by grace through faith alone, but both teach works-righteousness.


You've been corrected on this a lot.  You know better.  Why do you continue in your untruth?  Is your own faith so weak you can only lie about others?

----------


## Nang

> While I agree with your accusation that he's a false teacher, I still believe we are obligated to love him (Which I believe includes preaching the true gospel to him.)



As you go through life you will find many are deceived, while many are deceivers.  Some deceivers are more wicked than others, and the worse of these are those who deceive by using the very words of God.

The ~only~ way to love any of these enemies, is to stand firm for the true gospel, while praying God might convict them of their sins and show mercy to their souls.

----------


## RJB

> As you go through life you will find many are deceived, while many are deceivers.  Some deceivers are more wicked than others, and the worse of these are those who deceive by using the very words of God.


Like ones who lie about what others believe?

----------


## Nang

> You've been corrected on this a lot.  You know better.  Why do you continue in your untruth?  Is your own faith so weak you can only lie about others?


I do not lie.

Both the EO and RCC give lip service to God's grace, but they use it as an aid, to do their own pious and religious works.

That is not the same as depending entirely upon the righteous works of Jesus Christ, alone, for salvation.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> You've been corrected on this a lot.  You know better.  Why do you continue in your untruth?  Is your own faith so weak you can only lie about others?


You believe in faith alone?  That's new.

See my recent thread on infused righteousness, it would do you good

----------


## RJB

You say that because you don't know Catholic or Orthodox teaching, History, nor the Bible.




> I do not lie.
> 
> Both the EO and RCC give lip service to God's grace, but they use it as an aid, to do their own pious and religious works.
> 
> That is not the same as depending entirely upon the righteous works of Jesus Christ, alone, for salvation.

----------


## RJB

> You believe in faith alone?  That's new.


The works righteousness got me.  But is your faith so weak you can only gossip about Catholics, Arminians etc.?



> See my recent thread on infused righteousness, it would do you good


Yeah I saw it

----------


## Nang

> You say that because you don't know Catholic or Orthodox teaching, History, nor the bible.



Bah.

----------


## RJB

> Bah.


Then why repeat the same garbage after being corrected?  You are aware where lies come from?  Why must you repeat them?  Why can't you have a thread on YOUR relation with God, instead of spending your time in gossip?

----------


## Christian Liberty

> The works righteousness got me.  But is your faith so weak you can only gossip about Catholics, Arminians etc.?


I'm not gossiping, I am sharing the gospel with the lost, same thing that Nang is doing.

Christians do not always agree.  But a Christian CANNOT trust in himself for salvation in any part.  Period.




> Yeah I saw it


Wait, you're actually proud of that response?  I'm sorry but that's just sad.

And, for the record, yes this is me showing love to you.  You need to understand the problems with your worldview.  That comes off as harsh sometimes.  But of course, Jesus was the harshest with the self-righteous.  That includes *every infused righteousness proponent without exception.*

----------


## Christian Liberty

> Bah.


Sorry, I'm out of +rep.

----------


## Nang

> Then why repeat the same garbage after being corrected?  You are aware where lies come from?  Why must you repeat them?  Why can't you have a thread on YOUR relation with God, instead of spending your time in gossip?



Bah.  

Go to bed.  

You are not taken seriously at all.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> Bah.  
> 
> Go to bed.  
> 
> You are not taken seriously at all.


LOL!

Its these threads that make me start wanting to quote Vincent Cheung, harsh insults and all

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> You say that because you don't know Catholic or Orthodox teaching, History, nor the Bible.


This is why I have him and the other troublemakers on ignore.  They're only here to derail threads.  They do not care about the facts and evidence that contradicts their not-so-humble opinions.  I encourage you, TER and everyone else to keep them on ignore so these threads remain pleasant and on-topic. ~hugs~

----------


## Nang

> LOL!
> 
> Its these threads that make me start wanting to quote Vincent Cheung, harsh insults and all



A little bit of Cheung might do them some good!

----------


## RJB

> This is why I have him and the other troublemakers on ignore.  They're only here to derail threads.  They do not care about the facts and evidence that contradicts their not-so-humble opinions.  I encourage you, TER and everyone else to keep them on ignore so these threads remain pleasant and on-topic. ~hugs~


I may have to take your advice.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> A little bit of Cheung might do them some good!


Yeah, I think so.  SF seems to like him from what I've seen and while he does go a little further than I'd normally go, it would be a good antidote to some of the extreme stupidity I've been seeing on here lately...

Do you want to find an article or should I?

----------


## Christian Liberty

For unrepentant Catholics http://www.vincentcheung.com/2012/05...and-hypocrite/

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Then why repeat the same garbage after being corrected?  You are aware where lies come from?  Why must you repeat them?  Why can't you have a thread on YOUR relation with God, instead of spending your time in gossip?


It is not a lie that Rome teaches works-righteousness.  

Rome teaches that the grace of justification is a process that happens in the heart (rather than the Biblical view that justification is a one time event that happens on the cross).  

Because Rome teaches that justification is a process that man works for himself in the sacraments, it is a false religion of works effort.  This is the devil's lie.  The devil so subtlety twists the truth that you can barely see it.  It "seemeth right unto a man", but it's path ends in death.

----------


## RJB

> It is not a lie that Rome teaches works-righteousness.  
> 
> Rome teaches that the grace of justification is a process that happens in the heart (rather than the Biblical view that justification is a one time event that happens on the cross).  
> 
> Because Rome teaches that justification is a process that man works for himself in the sacraments, it is a false religion of works effort.  This is the devil's lie.  The devil so subtlety twists the truth that you can barely see it.  It "seemeth right unto a man", but it's path ends in death.


We have hundreds of threads on this where you've been refuted.  I won't waste anymore time.

However why can't you discuss your faith without attacking someone else?  Are you and your friends that weak in your faith?

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> I may have to take your advice.


  I find that dealing with bitter and purposely unpleasnt anti-Catholic/anti-Orthodox trouble-makers and such around here distracts from the Lenten spirit, celebration, and prayers.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> We have hundreds of threads on this where you've been refuted.  I won't waste anymore time.
> 
> However why can't you discuss your faith without attacking someone else?  Are you and your friends that weak in your faith?


No one has EVER refuted me on this.  EVER.  Whenever I want to talk about this subject (which is the primary reason that Roman Catholics are going to Hell) people run out of the thread and/or change the subject.

I WANT to talk about justification.   Please...let's talk about it.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> It is not a lie that Rome teaches works-righteousness.  
> 
> Rome teaches that the grace of justification is a process that happens in the heart (rather than the Biblical view that justification is a one time event that happens on the cross).  
> 
> Because Rome teaches that justification is a process that man works for himself in the sacraments, it is a false religion of works effort.  This is the devil's lie.  The devil so subtlety twists the truth that you can barely see it.  It "seemeth right unto a man", but it's path ends in death.


I really don't see how this is subtle, at all.  Basic baptismal regeneration might be subtle, like circumcision was, but Romanism isn't really subtle at all.




> We have hundreds of threads on this where you've been refuted.  I won't waste anymore time.
> 
> However why can't you discuss your faith without attacking someone else?  Are you and your friends that weak in your faith?


Why did Paul have to write Galatians?  Couldn't he have discussed his own faith without attacking the Judaizers faith?

Everyone without exception who teaches what you teach is under the same anathema as the Judaizers and needs to repent and believe the true gospel, the power of God unto salvation, as per Romans 1:16-17.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> I find that dealing with bitter and purposely unpleasnt anti-Catholic/anti-Orthodox trouble-makers and such around here distracts from the Lenten spirit, celebration, and prayers.


The spirit, celebration, and prayers of the unregenerate are repulsive to God (Isaiah 64:6, Romans 10:3-4.)  You SHOULD be distracted, because you do not believe the truth, and thus cannot be truly spiritually edified in any way.  



> No one has EVER refuted me on this.  EVER.  Whenever I want to talk about this (which is the primary reason that Roman Catholics are going to Hell) people run out of the thread and/or change the subject.
> 
> I WANT to talk about justification.   Please...let's talk about it.


My thread on infused righteousness may be a good springboard for that discussion, of course we have at least one papist who can't do anything but troll but maybe the rest of them will consider discussing it.

----------


## Christian Liberty

Actually, Sola, I hate to do this, but are you even sure you know what justification is?

In the James White v OTC Whackjob thread I asked you this:

 Originally Posted by *FreedomFanatic* 



> Sola, do you remember making the statement I identify in parenthesis? Or do I have to dig for it. I can if I need to.
> 
> Does this bother you at all? 
> 
> I'm going to keep bumping this until you give me a straight answer to this. If you aren't even sure of yourself, I'm not sure how you could suppose to preach the gospel to other people.


For any who may not remember, I was asking Sola about two particular statements he made.  One was a statement about uncertainty with regards to the OTC position on "tolerant calvinists."  The other statement was that no Christians ever doubt that they are saved. 

And you responded with:




> I don't know FF. You might have hit upon something that deserves some deep reflection on my part. I have to be open to where the Scriptures and logic takes me.


So, my questions are:

1. Are you justified?

2. Assuming your answer is yes (For the record, I believe that you are, but I don't deny that Christians can doubt their salvation and I don't give any credence to the "tolerant calvinist" label at all) how do you know, in the light of the above correspondance?

3. Assuming you don't know, say God opens someone's eyes?  What gospel are you going to teach to them?  Are you going to teach them to trust in Christ's finished work on the cross, or are you going to add a bunch of anathemizations to the list of "immediate fruits?"

Not trying to be difficult here SF, but you addressed this with "I don't know and you might have hit on something that deserves deep reflection" yet you never responded.

I'll bump the other thread so you can respond to me there if you prefer.  The posts are on this page: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...arpenter/page7

----------


## RJB

> My thread on infused righteousness may be a good springboard for that discussion, of course we have at least one papist who can't do anything but troll but maybe the rest of them will consider discussing it.


OK you want a truce?

----------


## Terry1

> Please cite scripture that teaches individual, decisional regeneration.  Do a careful word study of biblical language.
> 
> The word "choose" is ONLY made in reference to the choices of Sovereign God Almighty.
> 
> Never are the words "choose" or "accept" used in reference to sinners determining to believe in God, or not.  Never.


*Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord*

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Actually, Sola, I hate to do this, but are you even sure you know what justification is?
> 
> In the James White v OTC Whackjob thread I asked you this:
> 
>  Originally Posted by *FreedomFanatic* 
> 
> 
> For any who may not remember, I was asking Sola about two particular statements he made.  One was a statement about uncertainty with regards to the OTC position on "tolerant calvinists."  The other statement was that no Christians ever doubt that they are saved. 
> 
> ...


None of this is about what justification is.  Justification is how a man is made right in the sight of God.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

Getting back to the OP subject:



> *The Holy Angels*In response to the questions about angels and in honor of St Dionysius the Aeropagite whose memory we celebrated this past Sunday (October 3 / 13, Old Calendar) who wrote down what his teacher the Holy Apostle Paul told him of what he learned during his vision of the third heaven (2Cor 12:2).The following is from the Minea of St Dimitry of Rostov and appeared in the November/December 1968 issue of Orthodox Life. This is taken from a reprint included in the booklet _Orthodox Teachings on the Holy Angels_ compiled by Fr Demetrius Serfes (It may still be available through St John of Kronstadt Press)
> The nine orders of the angels are divided into three heirarchies, each of which is divided into three orders: the highest, the intermediate, the lower.The first hierarch, the highest and closest to the Most Holy Trinity, consists of the SERAPHIM, CHERUBIM, and THRONES.
> The God-loving six-winged SERAPHIM stand closer than all before their Creator and Mker, as the prophet Isaiah saw, saying: "And the seraphim stood around Him, each having six wings" (Isaiah 6:2). They ar fire-like since they stand before That One of Whom it is written: "For our God is a consuming fire." (Heb 12:29); "His throne was a flame of fire" (Dan 7:9); "the appearance of the Lord was like a blazing fire" (Ex 24:17). Standing before such glory, the seraphim are fire-like, as it said: "Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" (Ps 103:4). They are aflame with love for God and kindle others to such love, as i shown by their very name, for "seraphim" in the Hebrew language means: "flaming".
> After the seraphim, before the All-knowing God, Who resides in inaccessable light, stand the many-eyeed CHERUBIM in ineffable radiance. More than the other lower orders of angels, they are always radiant with the light of th knowledge of God, with the knowledge of the mysteries of God and the depths of His Wisdom; being themselves enlightened, they enlighten others. Their name "cherubim" in translation from the Hebrew language, means: "great understanding" or "effusion of wisdom", because throught the cherubim wisdom is sent down to tohers and enlightenment of the spiritual eyes is given for the seeing of God and knowledge of God.
> Thereafter stand the God-bearing THRONES (as St Dionysius the Areopagite calls them) before Him Who sits on the high and exulted throne, being named "thrones" since on them, as on inctellectual thrones (as writes St Maximus the Confessor) God intellectually resides. They are not called "God bearing" according to essence but according to grace and according to their office, as the flesh of Jesus Christ (as St Basil the Great writes) is called "God-bearing" according to essence since it was indivisibly united with God the Word Himself. The thrones are then called "God-bearing" not according to essence but according o grace, given for their service, which is mystically and incomprehensibley to bear God in themselves. Residing on them in an incomprehensible manner, God makes His righteous judgement, according to the word of David: "Thou hast sat upon a throne, O Thou that judgest righteousness." (Ps 9:4). Therefore through them the justice of God is pre-eminently manifesed; they erve His justice, glorifying it and pour out the power of justice onto the thrones of earthly judges, helping kings and masters to bring forth right judgement.
> Th middle hierarchy also consists of three orders of holy angels: the DOMINIONS, the VIRTUES, and the POWERS.
> The DOMINIONS are so nemed because, being themselves free, they dominate over the rest of the angels which follow behind them. Having abandoned servile fear, as St Dionysius the Aeropagite says, they voluntarily and with joy serve God unceasingly. Also they send down power for prudent governing and wise management to authorities on the earth set up by God. Further they teach how to control the senses, how to subdue in oneself dissolute desires and passions, how to enslave the flesh to the spirit, and how to rule over one's will and be above all temptations.
> The VIRTUES, [the usual translation of the name of this order of angels as "virtues" is readily misleading if the old meaning of the word "virtue" as "power" or "force", especially as regards to divine beings (cf Oxford English Dictionary), is not remembered. Note of translator.] filled with divine strength, quickly fulfill the will of the All-High and Omnipotent Lord, strong and powerful. They both work very great miracles and send down the grace of miracle-working to God's saints, who are worthy of such grace, in order that these may work miracles, such as heal every sickness and foretell the future. The holy virtues also help people laboring and those overburdened by the bearing of an obedience placed on them by someone - by which their names "virtues" is explained - and they bear the infirmities of the weak. They also strengthen every man in patience, so that he does not faint away in affliction but rather bears all misfortune with a strong spirit, courageously, and with humility, giving thanks for everything to God, arranging all for our benefit.
> The POWERS are so called because they have power over the devil, in order to restrain the power of the demons, to repulse the temptations brought upon people by them, and to prevent the demons from harming anyone to the degree that they would wish. The powers strengthen the good ascetics in spiritual struggles and labors, protecting them so that they may not be deprived of the spiritual kingdom. They help thos wrestling with passions and vices to cast out evil thoughts and slanders of the enemy and to conquer the devil.
> ...

----------


## Christian Liberty

> None of this is about what justification is.  Justification is how a man is made right in the sight of God.


No, you're incorrect.  "What do all saved people believe" is certainly related to the question of justification.  

What message are you going to tell these people to believe?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> No, you're incorrect.  "What do all saved people believe" is certainly related to the question of justification.  
> 
> What message are you going to tell these people to believe?


No, justification is not what we believe.  Justification is how the Triune God makes a sinful man right in His sight.

----------


## RJB

> No one has EVER refuted me on this.  EVER.  Whenever I want to talk about this subject (which is the primary reason that Roman Catholics are going to Hell) people run out of the thread and/or change the subject.
> 
> I WANT to talk about justification.   Please...let's talk about it.


We have.  You been refuted.  You are blind and in denial.  You are a diabolic influence on the forum and turn good threads into pointless gossip. I will turn my ear away from you and your friends as I would from any such influence.  You 5 are on my ignore list until the end of Lent and probably beyond.

----------


## Kevin007

David Jeremiah has a book on Angels and just did a sermon series on them. Great stuff.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> No, justification is not what we believe.  Justification is how the Triune God makes a sinful man right in His sight.


I understand that.  But its still related: let me explain:

Both I and Marc Carpenter would agree with your statement that justification is how a Triune God makes a sinful man right in his side.  We would also agree that certain doctrines are believed by the sinner at the moment he is justified, and that these beliefs are the means by which God imputes righteousness to him.  Salvation is by grace alone, but it is THROUGH faith alone in Jesus Christ.  There is no other way.  Now, I realize you know this too.  But, since you know this, you cannot separate the issue of justification from the doctrinal fruits that immediately come with justification.  How can you?  Otherwise you might as well start telling Buddhists that since salvation is monergistic, they don't actually have to have faith in Jesus Christ in order to be saved.  

But since we know that faith in Jesus Christ is the MEANS by which God imputes justification, the set of doctrines which are imputed to a person at his justification is a relevant topic, isn't it?

I mean, how do we know we are justified?  Because we believe.  But... believe what?  Based on your comments in the other thread, you do not, cannot, know whether or not you are justified, because you don't even know that you have the bare essentials.

----------


## RJB

> I find that dealing with bitter and purposely unpleasnt anti-Catholic/anti-Orthodox trouble-makers and such around here distracts from the Lenten spirit, celebration, and prayers.


I did it!!!

----------


## Sola_Fide

> We have.  You been refuted.  You are blind and in denial.  You are a diabolic influence on the forum and turn good threads into pointless gossip. I will turn my ear away from you and your friends as I would from any such influence.  You 5 are on my ignore list until the end of Lent and probably beyond.


Where?   Post the link where you think I have been "refuted".

----------


## Christian Liberty

> Where?   Post the link where you think I have been "refuted".


I still think I proved that you are wrong about at least one claim based on my link from the other thread that you haven't answered.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> I did it!!!


Yay!  God bless ye, my brother.

----------


## RJB

This is great HB.  I've never had anyone on ignore.  I see beautiful pictures of angel and saints (the family album of our siblings in Christ.)  Inspiring stories of God's angels.  And blank posts.  It's like someone is try to taunt me into a fight by throwing marshmallows at my house.  LOL

Back to Lent and TER's inspiring threads

----------


## Sola_Fide

> I still think I proved that you are wrong about at least one claim based on my link from the other thread that you haven't answered.


Do you think tolerant Calvinists are saved?  Don't you see the danger in saying that?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> This is great HB.  I've never had anyone on ignore.  I see beautiful pictures of angel and saints (the family album of our siblings in Christ.)  Inspiring stories of God's angels.  And blank posts.  It's like someone is try to taunt me into a fight by throwing marshmallows at my house.  LOL
> 
> Back to Lent and TER's inspiring threads


Only cowards put people on ignore.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> Do you think tolerant Calvinists are saved?


I think I'm probably still a tolerant calvinist based on Carpenter's definition of that term.  Heck, last time you gave me a straight answer to this you told me you thought some tolerant calvinists were saved.  Did you mean "Arminians" here?




> Don't you see the danger in saying that?


Ummm.... no?

----------


## Christian Liberty

SF, when you first met Nang on these forums you asked her if she was also a "Clarkian".

Do you call yourself a Clarkian despite believing that Gordon Clark was lost?  Because Gordon Clark was a "Tolerant calvinist" according to OTC's definition of that term.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> Only cowards put people on ignore.


Only cowards refuse to answer questions directly yet also refuse to admit they don't know

----------


## Sola_Fide

> SF, when you first met Nang on these forums you asked her if she was also a "Clarkian".
> 
> Do you call yourself a Clarkian despite believing that Gordon Clark was lost?  Because Gordon Clark was a "Tolerant calvinist" according to OTC's definition of that term.


I don't believe Clark was a tolerant Calvinist (I also don't believe he was right about everything either).

----------


## Christian Liberty

> I don't believe Clark was a tolerant Calvinist


Gordon Clark says:




> "An Arminian may be a truly regenerate Christian; in fact, if he is truly an Arminian and not a Pelagian who happens to belong to an Arminian church, he must be a saved man. But he is not usually, and cannot consistently be assured of his salvation. The places in which his creed differs from our Confession confuse the mind, dilute the Gospel, and impair its proclamation.


Source: http://www.outsidethecamp.org/notf.htm 

According to the OTC definition of "tolerant calvinist" (Which is the definition I've been using, if you're using a different definition please define the term for me and I will switch to your definition) a "tolerant calvinist" is someone who believes that at least some universal atonement advocates (which certainly includes all Arminians) are their brothers and sisters in Christ.  Gordon Clark would apply by that definition, unless he's been misquoted.  But, I've seen at least the first part of the quote ("An Arminian may be a truly regenerate Christian") posted in other places as well.  So I'm pretty sure he isn't being misquoted on at least the first part.




> (I also don't believe he was right about everything either).


I understand.  I already knew you disagreed with him about Arminians.  But do you think he was lost on those grounds?

And, for that matter, if you think he was lost on those grounds, were you lost back when you said you didn't think all tolerant calvinists were unregenerate?

Do you see how ridiculous this gets, or not really?

----------


## Christian Liberty

And... silence....  SF, you really don't know the answer, do you?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Gordon Clark says:
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.outsidethecamp.org/notf.htm 
> 
> According to the OTC definition of "tolerant calvinist" (Which is the definition I've been using, if you're using a different definition please define the term for me and I will switch to your definition) a "tolerant calvinist" is someone who believes that at least some universal atonement advocates (which certainly includes all Arminians) are their brothers and sisters in Christ.  Gordon Clark would apply by that definition, unless he's been misquoted.  But, I've seen at least the first part of the quote ("An Arminian may be a truly regenerate Christian") posted in other places as well.  So I'm pretty sure he isn't being misquoted on at least the first part.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, I've read that quote...and I don't know how to take it.  For instance,  Gordon Clark said:



> "This is an assurance that many popular evangelists do not have themselves and cannot promise to their hearers. Yes, they insist on assurance, but it is not the assurance that the Bible teaches. These evangelists, the ones I have in mind, are Arminians. They do not believe in the perseverance of the saints, or, as they call it, eternal security. They claim to be very sure that they are saved now; but they are not sure that they will be saved tomorrow or next week. If they die tonight, they will be in Heaven immediately. But if they should live a while longer, they might fall into sin, fall from grace, and then they would be eternally lost. But they are very sure just now... To be really saved, i.e., to get to Heaven, one must be born again over and over again. Their hope therefore is one that can easily disappoint. These preachers often talk quite a lot about the Holy Spirit; but they deny to the Spirit the power to give a man eternal life. By eternal I mean eternal; not a life that ends in the near future. *Thus they do not have assurance; nor do they preach the Gospel, for the Gospel promises at least the possibility of assurance.* It promises, not the mere possibility of eternal life; it promises eternal life."



And:
* The God Of Arminianism Cannot Be Good* 
http://reasonablechristian.blogspot....-good.html?m=1

----------


## Christian Liberty

> And... silence....  SF, you really don't know the answer, do you?


I apologize for this comment because it could easily be read as mocking.  I was honestly kind of shocked by your original question (about tolerant calvinists) because I had never heard you say tolerant calvinists weren't saved until that post, so you seem like you're contradicting what you've said in the past.




> Yeah, I've read that quote...and I don't know how to take it.  For instance,  Gordon Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> And:
> * The God Of Arminianism Cannot Be Good* 
> http://reasonablechristian.blogspot....-good.html?m=1


The people Clark is talking about sound more like semi if not outright Pelagians to me.  But, let's ignore that for a second.  Do you believe all TC's (tolerant calvinists) are lost?  And if you do, do you think you were lost a few months ago when you thought TCs were saved?  When does this get ridiculous?

More specifically, is James White an unregenerate person?  Was John W. Robbins an unregenerate person?

----------


## RJB

As we get deeper into Lent we think of the sacrifice our Lord made for us and live it in our own lives as we take up the cross to follow him. The bible tells us of an angel comforting Jesus as he prayed in the Garden before the Crucifixion and of the women greeted by the angels they visited his empty tomb.  I'm not an Orthodox but I've always appreciated this icon (it's a picture from our spiritual family album.).  Jesus as a man was well aware of the angelic host around him.

For the Jews request a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified  to the Jews a stumbling-block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks  Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God
- Apostle Paul (1st Letter to the Corinthians)

The physical reality of Jesus Christs sacrifice upon the Cross is not to be ignored by those who follow Him. Crucifixion was a method of execution by the Romans, and the Icon of Christs Crucifixion shows this event both in the earthly and heavenly realms


Jesus Christ is nailed to the Cross at the hands and feet on a hill, outside of the city walls, which can be seen in the background. At the foot of the Cross stands Jesus Mother, grieving with the other women  among them Mary Madeline and Mary Cleopas; to Jesus left stands the young Apostle John and one of the Roman centurions. Jesus Himself bears the spear-wound on His right side, gushing blood and water. His head is bowed, His eyes are closed; He has breathed His last (Mk 15:37; Jn 19:30).

The sorrow of this scene is etched into the faces of those at the foot of the Cross. This tragedy is also played out in the Heavenly realm: two angels in the top corners rush in to take Jesus spirit, covering their faces, unable to witness the scene.

The physical drama of the scene is also written into the Icon: the ground beneath the Cross is cracked in two, revealing a skull. Christs place of execution was called Golgotha, the place of the skull, and tradition related that this was the site of the first man Adams tomb.

At the top the sun is shown black, and the moon is shown blood-red. The solar eclipse at Christs crucifixion is described in the Gospels, yet Peter, quoting a prophecy of Joel, also affirms that a lunar eclipse occurred, which would have caused the moon to turn red (Joel 2:31; Acts 2:19-22).

Yet for all this fearful drama, the Icon of the Crucifixion doesnt dwell on the physical aspects of Christs Passion, but also the meaning of it. As Leo the Great said:


[D]early-beloved, at Christ being lifted up upon the cross, let the eyes of your mind not dwell only on that sight which those wicked sinners saw, to whom it was said by the mouth of Moses, And thy life shall be hanging before thine eyes, and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt not be assured of thy life.  But let our understandings, illumined by the Spirit of Truth, foster with pure and free heart the glory of the cross which irradiates heaven and earth, and see with the inner sight what the Lord meant when He spoke of His coming Passion: The hour is come that the Son of man may be glorified
- Leo the Great (On the Passion of Christ)

The multitudes of mockers, wicked sinners and doubters who thronged Golgotha are not shown. In some icons only the Mother of God and Apostle John are shown; in most, it is only the faithful disciples of Christ who are shown. The Roman centurion, rather than being Christs executioner, is depicted in the process of proclaiming with wonder: Truly, this man is the son of God. By tradition he is recognized as the saint: Longinus. Only those, saints and angels, illumined by the Truth witness the Cross now, and we are invited to observe it along with them. What do we see?

The most striking detail is that Jesus, clearly shown as dead, still has His halo. Despite undergoing bodily death, and contrary to some heretical teachings, Jesus Christs Divinity has not left Him. Even bleeding and physically dead upon the Cross, Christ is still fully divine. He wears a crown of Glory, not a crown of thorns. Indeed, it is difficult to find an Orthodox Icon which shows Jesus Christ wearing the crown of thorns. Such a crown, made for Christ by His mockers, has no place upon this Icon.

Christs hands are shown palm upwards, almost in an embrace, which beautifully echoes numerous prayers of the Church, such as:


Jesus, Who stretches out Your hands from the Cross to all, draw me to Yourself, for I too have gone astray!
http://www.monachos.net/content/litu...sion-of-christ

From Christs side, the blood and water is collected by an angel with a chalice. The resonance of this image with the Divine Liturgy is obvious, and brings to remembrance Christs words regarding His Passion: Drink from it all of you. For this is My blood of the New Testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. The blood from Christs side which convinced the faithless at Golgotha that He was dead is in fact the very thing which brings life to those dead in sin.

We cannot look upon the Crucifixion of Our Lord without some sense of shame at what He suffered. Yet we are told by Jesus Himself that His Passion upon the Cross was necessary for our Salvation. The Icon of the Crucifixion portrays the horror and victory, the earthly and heavenly, together in one image, so that  impossible as it may seem  we can behold this paradox.

Supreme Ruler and Lord of Heaven and earth, seeing Thee, the Immortal King, hanging on the Cross, all creation was changed, Heaven was horrified, and the foundations of the earth were shaken. But we, unworthy as we are, offer Thee thankful adoration for Thy Passion in our behalf, and with the robber we cry to Thee:

Jesus, Son of God, remember us when Thou comest in Thy Kingdom!

----------


## Terry1

> His thread was an abomination . . . at least God is bringing some truth out of it.
> 
> And TER does not respect others wishes, so why should we respect his threads that break the 2nd commandment and troll quotes from men abusing the true meaning of Holy Scripture?


*Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord*

 Repent!

----------


## Terry1

> No man has the ability to accept God's grace.
> 
> That is why those who will be saved by faith, must first be born from above.  John 3:3


]*Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord*

  Repent!

----------


## Sola_Fide

> I apologize for this comment because it could easily be read as mocking.  I was honestly kind of shocked by your original question (about tolerant calvinists) because I had never heard you say tolerant calvinists weren't saved until that post, so you seem like you're contradicting what you've said in the past.
> 
> 
> 
> The people Clark is talking about sound more like semi if not outright Pelagians to me.  But, let's ignore that for a second.  Do you believe all TC's (tolerant calvinists) are lost?  And if you do, do you think you were lost a few months ago when you thought TCs were saved?  When does this get ridiculous?
> 
> More specifically, is James White an unregenerate person?  Was John W. Robbins an unregenerate person?


I'm not a Carpenterite, although I agree with a lot of what they say.  No, I don't go to the extreme that they go to with tolerant calvinists,  but I would question anyone who says that Arminianism saves.   If you or Erowe or Nang or anyone else starting claiming that Arminianism is a gospel that saves, I would be all over you (in a loving way).

----------


## Terry1

> I'm not a Carpenterite, although I agree with a lot of what they say.  No, I don't go to the extreme that they go to with tolerant calvinists,  but I would question anyone who says that Arminianism saves.   If you or Erowe or Bang or anyone else starting claiming that Arminianism is a gospel that saves, I would be all over you (in a loving way).


*Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord*

  Repent!

----------


## moostraks

> Preach that to TER.  
> 
> He is the one who ignores and refuses to comply with the requests of Christians who express sensitivity to and rebuke his idolatrous threads.
> 
> No faithful Christian is required to love a false teacher, and TER is teaching falsely, and until he repents of his ways, he is owed no respect or accommodation of charity from me.


The Excellence of Love

 1 Corinthians 13:1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
      4Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

      8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 

Galatians 5:But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires

Romans 12:For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. 4For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; 7if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; 8or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

      9Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good. 10Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor; 11not lagging behind in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; 12rejoicing in hope, persevering in tribulation, devoted to prayer, 13contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality.

      14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. 17Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. 18If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. 19Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY, says the Lord. 20BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD. 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> *Joshua 24:15
> And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord*
> 
>   Repent!



Right.   *If it seems evil for you to serve the Lord,* choose this day whom you will serve, pick any idol you want.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> I'm not a Carpenterite,


I understand, 




> although I agree with a lot of what they say.


I agree with some of what they say too, and I do respect them to some extent because I know of far too many Christians who are tolerant of virtually everything...  I know one Reformed Christian who even said Mother Theresa might have been saved (he wasn't talking about a deathbed conversion) and while I don't think he's unsaved, that statement definitely bugged me.  My mother and I once had an argument that turned sour because she didn't believe that everyone who holds to baptismal regeneration was unsaved and I thought she was being tolerant.  But OTC, in my mind, takes it to the opposite extreme and requires a level of doctrinal purity that I doubt ten thousand people on the planet could attain (I still haven't gotten Chris Duncan to explain Revelation 7 and I've pointed it out to him multiple times.)  And this is kind of what sparked my original discussion, you and the OTC people believe basically the exact same thing yet they'd judge you unsaved because you don't judge James White and John Robbins to be unsaved.  At that point it gets silly, and when you add in the personal attacks it just gets frustrating to read, so I generally don't do so anymore unless I'm looking for something specific.  



> No, I don't go to the extreme that they go to with tolerant calvinists,


The question you asked me last night seemed to indicate that you did.  Did you mean "Arminians" instead of "tolerant calvinists" or were you actually trying to ask me if tolerant calvinists were saved?




> but I would question anyone who says that Arminianism saves.


Question their logic or question their salvation?




> If you or Erowe or Nang or anyone else starting claiming that Arminianism is a gospel that saves, I would be all over you (in a loving way).


I think erowe1 claimed that universal atonement wasn't a false gospel.  I don't know if I agree with him or not... I feel like any logical conclusion of universal atonement (Either universalism or a non-effecacious atonement) is damnable, but I'm not convinced that someone who is resting in the blood of Christ to save them and just doesn't understand how this contradicts universal atonement is unregenerate.

And, to add to that, "Arminianism" certainly cannot save.  If Armininaism were actually true, everyone would reject Christ and go to Hell, not to mention that God would be unjust because Christ would have died for all those people who went to Hell (Admittedly, I've been making this statement for a long time but the more I get into presuppositionalism the more I realize I probably need a scripture-text to prove this point... has God ever bound himself by a double jeopardy law?)  But, I'm not sure if everyone who believes in Arminianism is unsaved.  I think it depends on how much they know.  While I'm not the judge, I cannot help but doubt the salvation of those Arminians who I know who have been confronted with the truth but just don't care.  I was having a discussion with my grandmother awhile ago and she said something to the effect of "I couldn't worship a God like that."  While I cannot state with absolute certainty, I have serious concerns for her salvation when she says something like that.  And that's something I'm going to be praying about because I think that's something she needs to know.  But I see a difference between someone like her and someone who is just told "Christ died for your sins, trust in him and be saved" and believes it but doesn't really know anything more than that.  

But even if such a person is saved, "Arminianism" did not save them, God saved them in spite of their Arminianism.

----------


## Nang

> Gordon Clark says:
> 
> 
> "An Arminian may be a truly regenerate Christian; in fact, if he is truly an Arminian and not a Pelagian who happens to belong to an Arminian church, he must be a saved man. But he is not usually, and cannot consistently be assured of his salvation. The places in which his creed differs from our Confession confuse the mind, dilute the Gospel, and impair its proclamation.





Does the OTC give a source for this quote supposedly from Clark?

I am dubious about it, for I have never read anything written by Clark, like it.

Although, I will admit I have not read ALL of Clark's books . . . yet.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> [/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]
> 
> 
> Does the OTC give a source for this quote supposedly from Clark?
> 
> I am dubious about it, for I have never read anything written by Clark, like it.
> 
> Although, I will admit I have not read ALL of Clark's books . . . yet.


They give a source, although I haven't read the book myself:

From the article



> (_What Do Presbyterians Believe?_, Presbyterian & Reformed Publishing Co, 1965, pp. 174-175)


Obviously, I wasn't posting that to attack Clark so much as I was posting it to refute the absurdity of the "tolerant calvinist" witch hunt...

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> You say that because you don't know Catholic or Orthodox teaching, History, nor the Bible.


Take heart, my friend.




> If some Christians cannot comprehend our Orthodox Faith and Sacraments, it proves that the minds and hearts of such persons are too impure and passionate to bear its purity and brightness, just as sick eyes cannot bear the light of the sun. This heavenly treasure can only be comprehended by the hearts of those who free their minds and hearts from worldly attachments.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> Take heart, my friend.


And apparently that quote isn't "arrogant" but we're arrogant?  give me a break...

This "saint" is an idol worshipper.

----------


## TER

> And apparently that quote isn't "arrogant" but we're arrogant?  give me a break...
> 
> This "saint" is an idol worshipper.


It is not arrogant to submit yourself to the Body of Christ.  It is arrogant to create your own religion against the Body of Christ.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> It is not arrogant to submit yourself to the Body of Christ.  It is arrogant to create your own religion against the Body of Christ.


I agree.  And the entire "Orthodox" Church is a part of a self-created religion.

----------


## TER

> I agree.  And the entire "Orthodox" Church is a part of a self-created religion.


Yes, I understand that is your belief.  I disagree.  I believe it is the Church of the New Testament, and there is plenty of proof to confirm that, the greatest being the Holy Eucharist.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

What St. John said in the above quote is no more "arrogant" than what Jesus said according to Matthew's Gospel: 


> Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.


 (but you're not all that interested in what the Gospels say, FF, so this may be of no interest to you)
The church makes no "ought" claims-which would be arrogant.  It only makes "is" statements.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> It is not arrogant to submit yourself to the Body of Christ.  It is arrogant to create your own religion against the Body of Christ.


This^^ * a zillion.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> What St. John said in the above quote is no more "arrogant" than what Jesus said according to Matthew's Gospel:  (but you're not all that interested in what the Gospels say, FF, so this may be of no interest to you)
> The church makes no "ought" claims-which would be arrogant.  It only makes "is" claims.


I agree, yet people here get on me and Sola for being "arrogant" for saying similar things.

That said, I didn't say this particular "saint" was a lost man because of his "arrogance" but because of what he said about sacraments and conditionalism.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

FF-just FYI, I have you on ignore, so I don't know what you're saying.  Don't bother writing posts for me.  It's a waste of your time and energy.  I'm keeping you on ignore for at least the rest of Lent and Pascha, but more likely permanently.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Question their logic or question their salvation?


One or the other, or both...depending on what they said.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> One or the other, or both...depending on what they said.


Just out of curiosity (And note that I am not a coward and will not report you either way for how you answer this) do you doubt that I am saved based on what I've posted here?  If so, why?

----------


## Christian Liberty

> Do you think tolerant Calvinists are saved?  Don't you see the danger in saying that?


Considering you yourself believe some tolerant Calvinists may be saved, did you mean "Arminians" here?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Considering you yourself believe some tolerant Calvinists may be saved, did you mean "Arminians" here?


I think it depends on what they are being tolerant about.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> I think it depends on what they are being tolerant about.


Well, OK.  When I said "tolerant calvinist" I meant a Calvinist who thinks that at least some Arminians might be saved.  Obviously if you replaced "Arminians" with "Muslims" my answer would change very dramatically

----------


## TER

Bump for those interested

----------


## pcosmar

> Bump for those interested


I'm interested.
And have been learning more just lately..

I had never really considered the role of the Fallen Angels much.. I knew of the devil,, but had not considered how many of them there are.

I had generally thought of such singularly,,as Lucifer or Satan. a single personality,,
looking deeper has given a new perspective on it. Not devil,,but devils. And I wonder how often it is written or read as singular when it should be the plurality.
Enoch describes 200 at one point,,and names only their leaders. But elsewhere it is stated that 1/3 of the angels were joined in the Rebellion.

That is a whole lot of devils.

And a thread on angels,, of necessity,  must consider the Fallen angels.. They are also a reality.

----------


## Terry1

> I'm interested.
> And have been learning more just lately..
> 
> I had never really considered the role of the Fallen Angels much.. I knew of the devil,, but had not considered how many of them there are.
> 
> I had generally thought of such singularly,,as Lucifer or Satan. a single personality,,
> looking deeper has given a new perspective on it. Not devil,,but devils. And I wonder how often it is written or read as singular when it should be the plurality.
> Enoch describes 200 at one point,,and names only their leaders. But elsewhere it is stated that 1/3 of the angels were joined in the Rebellion.
> 
> ...


*2 Kings 6*: *15And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do? 16And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them. 17And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha. 
*

There are demons roaming the earth seeking to destroy mankind that we can not see, yet there are far more of Gods heavenly angels watching over mankind, protecting us from those who would otherwise tear us apart.

We are dull and blinded by our corrupted state of being to the point that we're living in a dream without understanding, without knowledge, without the wisdom and spiritual sight that would otherwise allow us to see what is truly real that exists all around us every day.

Unbelievers who think this is all crazy nonsense are those very people that are vulnerable to be used by satan's demons because they are the most blind and cluless as to just what is controlling and using them on a daily basis.  This is why our Lord told us to put on the spiritual armor of God that protects us from these spiritual demons seeking to destroy us.

There are countless historical accounts of people who were saved, rescued and protected from things that would have otherwise killed them, yet this is still not enough to convince some of the unseen spiritual realm that exists around them.  They remain in a dull and blind state until they are regenerated by the spirit of the Lord.

Angels are real, they are the Lords servants and our brethren who intervene on the behalf of those of us who love, trust and believe in the Lord.  They watch over us, protect us and help us.  satan's demons have strongholds, ranks like a military along with higher and lower demons, just the same as Gods heavenly angels do.  Some are more powerful than others and can do far more harm.  

Walk in the spirit and be alert praying every day that a hedge of  protection be placed around you and your loved ones understanding that there are forces, prinicipalities of darkness at work in this world that we can not see with the carnal eye or hear with the carnal ears.  

*Ephesians 6: The Full Armor of God
10Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:*

----------


## TER

Post critical of 'Druidic Christianity' deleted.

----------


## Terry1

What is a "druidic-Christian" anyway?  That would seem to me to be an oxymoron.  Druidism is pagan by nature and those who practice paganism.

----------


## TER

I have no idea what it is.  It seems to be a confluence of basic Christian beliefs with ancient pagan ones, until the right combination is made to make the individual person feel convinced in their own minds that they have it figured out and are on the right path, even if history and everyone else (especially those much more knowledgable then them) are saying differently.  Perhaps it is this generation's form of Gnosticism which has many different branches, all originating however within the fantasies of prideful men who put more confidence in their own minds above the mind of Christ and His Body the saints.

----------


## Terry1

> I have no idea what it is.  It seems to be a confluence of basic Christian beliefs with ancient pagan ones, until the right combination is made to make the individual person feel convinced in their own minds that they have it figured out and are on the right path, even if history and everyone else (especially those much more knowledgable then them) are saying differently.  Perhaps it is this generation's form of Gnosticism which has many different branches, all originating however within the fantasies of prideful men who put more confidence in their own minds above the mind of Christ and His Body the saints.


It would seem to me that druidism mixed with Christianity is simply an attempt to call *evil--good.  We know our Lord says that a "house divided" can not and will not stand and that oil and water do not mix, just the same as there is no darkness in the pure light of God.

Druidism is a pagan phallic practice that wiccans use.  Some wiccans like to call themselves "white wiccans", meaning they have only good intentions using the opposing spirits of God, which is rather silly because this is a spiritual deception that leads only to darkness--not light.

I'm very concerned about those who have fallen into this teaching and trap that would try to convince them that they can dabble in the occult and still call themselves a "Christian" at the same time.  And why would anyone want to believe this in the first place?  Obviously they believe in good and evil spirits, so one would think that they'd have to understand the difference and that they can not be mixed together and still called the spirit of the Lord.  We're at war with the principalities of darkness--there is no peace between good and evil and can not be practiced together and be called anything but a lie, deception and evil.

----------


## Terry1

Also, I wanted to add that it is very important to acknowledge the teachings of the early saints of God.  This is one of our greatest spiritual compasses to understanding the word of God along with walking in the Spirit of the Lord.  Without the correct teaching from our beloved apostolic forefathers and saints of God, we are less inclined to grow spiritually and remain on the correct path in righteousness. 

The angels serve us as mediators between us and God.  They do the will of God as our prayers are sent up to heaven like a sweet smelling savor.  They are messengers and a help to us being the will of God and answer to our prayers.  

I have personally seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears the work that the angels do.  I have no doubt because I have heard and seen them.  I've also seen what a demon looks like as well--(a lower demon).  Many people have just the same as me and they also believe and understand that not everyone has been given the *spiritual sight and hearing as some others have and this is why so many doubt their existence and the reality of them--but I can assure everyone that *they are real* and they do exist all around us every day and in every place.  There is no hiding place--only the spiritual armor of God that protects us from the demons that would tear us apart if it wasn't for the Lords heavenly angels protecting us from them.  I have personally experienced this and saw it with my own eyes--whether non believers choose to accept that or not.

----------


## Terry1

I gave this testimony a long time ago in here, but I'll tell it again for those who didn't see it.

Many years ago I was married to a horrible beast of a man who was violent and abusive.  I became a Christian during that marriage.  To make a long story short here--he came after me one day and tried to tear my Bible from my arms as I was reading.  I ran into the kitchen trying to get away from him.  He followed me and cornered me there.  He raised his fist to hit me and all I could do was stand there cornered and before he hit me, I said the words "Jesus--please come quickly" as I held my head down with my eyes closed.  

I opened my eyes only to see his arm frozen in place above his head with his fist still clenched.  He was literally frozen in place squirming and struggling to get his arm free from mid-air.  He started screaming in fear and a voice told me to run and get out of his way.  I ran into the livingroom amazed that he was still standing there struggling to get his arm free from what seemed to be something holding him there.  All of the sudden he was set free and ran screaming out of the back door of the kitchen.

My ex-husband died in 2008 of a heat attack--I always hoped that maybe at some point he became a believer, but only the Lord knows.  I was freed from that horrible life and marriage.

This is what our angels and protectors do for us when we place our trust and belief in the Lord.  This is most certainly true as God as my witness.  This wasn't the only time the angels came to me either.  I could give you more accounts similar to this, but then---would you believe me?

----------


## pcosmar

> What is a "druidic-Christian" anyway?  *That would seem to me to be an oxymoron.*  Druidism is pagan by nature and those who practice paganism.


Pretty much.. it is tongue in cheek.
I ascribe to no particular "brand" or denomination. I had often described myself an simply a believer,, or a generic Christian,, but some people keep pushing  to the point that I simply made one up.. (and it usually keeps people for pressing the issue)

Very little was known of the Druids.. they were wiped out (Genocide?) by the Roman  Church.
They did have some pieces (from what is known) of truth mixed with a lot of error. They worshiped the Creature more than the Creator. But that has long been a common error.
For me it is a recognition of Creation as the works of God.. and of myself stuck in this flesh in this flawed and corrupted world.
God is my Father and I am a spiritual being,, but the Earth is my mother and I am stuck in this clay form.
My hope is not in this world,,  and I look forward to being free from it,, but for now.. I accept both.

If that helps you understand.

----------


## pcosmar

> Originally Posted by *TER*
> I have no idea what it is. It seems to be a confluence of basic Christian beliefs with ancient pagan ones,


And that is not uncommon..
Take Christmas for example,, it was re-purposed Pagan traditions.. The Winter Solstice.
Christ was not born on Dec 25. Most scholars believe it was summer months (July or August) but no one knows the Date.

I accept is as a day to celebrate and remember His birth,, regardless of the actual date. One day is as good as another.
There are some interesting things about the story though,,
The "Three Wise Men" , Pagans,, Astrologers from the East,, had seen in the Stars the birth of the King and came to Honor him.
These pagans were warned by God in a dream to return home by a different route.
*And the Angels* (the subject of this thread)

They proclaimed the Birth. we are told the story as recorded. 
I have puzzled on this,, were they only sent to the poor Sheep herders.. It seems to me that all the land should have heard.
The Temple Priests should have been made aware.. all of the studied Men that knew the prophecies..
There should have been a huge show over all of Jerusalem.

Did they only Proclaim this Great News to a few farmers?? or were they they only ones that heard and responded?

Yes,, I puzzle on these things.

----------


## TER

The problem, Peter, is that you put modern 'scholars' above the Church and the saints to fit your theology.  Christians conform to the Church and humbly learn from the saints.  Christians don't create new religions.

----------


## pcosmar

> The problem, Peter, is that you put modern 'scholars' above the Church and the saints to fit your theology.  Christians conform to the Church and humbly learn from the saints.  Christians don't create new religions.


What new religion? (my fictitious descriptor?) I have no religion. I have a personal faith.

And no I do not put scholars above any,, Though many who have studied these things have places Christs actual birth in the Summer months.
It was much later that Dec 25 was chosen to celebrate it. And many traditions.. like Santa Claus and Christmas Trees and Yule Logs were added.

----------


## TER

> What new religion? (my fictitious descriptor?) I have no religion. I have a personal faith.
> 
> And no I do not put scholars above any,, Though many who have studied these things have places Christs actual birth in the Summer months.
> It was much later that Dec 25 was chosen to celebrate it. And many traditions.. like Santa Claus and Christmas Trees and Yule Logs were added.


The living of your faith is your religion.

And here is some information for you about Dec. 25th as the date of the Lord's Nativity, which goes back to the earliest centuries.  


http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2013...hrist-was.html


http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009...25-was-he.html

----------


## pcosmar

> The living of your faith is your religion.
> 
> And here is some information for you about Dec. 25th as the date of the Lord's Nativity, which goes back to the earliest centuries.  
> 
> 
> http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2013...hrist-was.html
> 
> 
> http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009...25-was-he.html


Actually,, it goes back to hundreds of years after. and the one agrees that it is theory and there is no definitive proof.
*NO ONE KNOWS*

And I neither attempt to take Christ out of Christmas, nor to insist on another date. As I stated,, one day is as good as another for remembrance.

I am bothered much more by the selfishness, greed,  and Commercialization of the day,, than what day it actually was.

but a few words from the preacher,



> *The end of a matter is better than its beginning*, and patience is better than pride.





> A good name is better than precious ointment;* and the day of death than the day of one's birth*.


Certainly true of Christ,, whose death paid the price to redeem us.

----------


## TER

> Actually,, it goes back to hundreds of years after. and the one agrees that it is theory and there is no definitive proof.
> *NO ONE KNOWS*


Yes, there are those who know.  Christ, His mother, the Saints in heaven.  They all know.  With regards to this matter, the Church knows as well.

My point is not to suggest that you are against Christmas.  I am trying to show you that Christ being born on Dec. 25th was not some kind of 'Roman' conspiracy, it was the Providence of God.  For what reason?  To reveal Christ as the Son of God and the anticipation of all nations, including the pagans, so that they might come to believe in Him and be baptized members of His body.

----------


## pcosmar

> My point is not to suggest that you are against Christmas.


I'm Not. I celebrate Christmas. And I accept the day out of commonly accepted tradition.





I am not sure why you want to *derail your own thread* over this. but is is one of the reasons why I seriously dislike religion.
Yes,, I have many disagreements with the Roman Church,, (this being least among them) and also have doctrinal differences with most every other church as well,, but try to focus on those things we can agree on..  Those points that are of importance.. And those points,, I believe,, we agree on.

A disagreement with a minor point is not an attack on the whole..

----------


## TER

You are correct.  Didn't want to derail this thread which has some very nice articles in it.  Back to our regularly scheduled program!  



*The Church's Belief in Guardian Angels*

_By Fr. Patrick Reardon_

The Church's belief in the ministry of the Guardian Angels is amply supported by our Lord's warning, "Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 18:10). Luke, likewise, in referring to Peter's angel, testifies to that belief among the early Christians (Acts 12:15). These references indicate that the Guardian Angels were already well known to the readers of the Matthew and Luke; the idea required no explanation.

As in other instances of Christian belief (the efficacy of prayer for the dead comes to mind), it was originally from the Jews that the Church inherited this belief in the ministry of the Guardian Angels. The Psalmist had declared, "The angel of the Lord encamps all around those who fear Him, and delivers them" (Psalms 34 [33]:7). And again, "He will give His angels charge over you, to keep you in all your ways" (91 [90]:11).

The clearest illustration of Jewish belief in the Guardian Angels is found in the Book of Tobit, preserved in the Septuagint. It is the story of an exiled Israelite family living in Mesopotamia during the late eighth century before Christ, and the central core of the account concerns the long journey that the young man, Tobias, makes on behalf of his recently blinded father, Tobit. In this narrative the original purpose of Tobias's trip‹to collect a debt in order to preserve the family from destitution‹is transcended and enriched in a variety of ways, not the least of which is the young man's discovery of a godly wife. 

Prior to setting out on this journey, however, Tobias and his parents are visited by a stranger who offers to guide him along the way, and at the story's end the stranger is identified as Raphael, "one of the seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints, and which go in and out before the glory of the Holy One" (Tobit 12:15; cf.Revelation 1:4). 

This revelation does not take place until the end of the book, however, when the journey is over. Thus, Tobit and his family, like Abraham in Genesis 18, Gideon in Judges 6, and the parents of Samson in Judges 13, receive an angel "unawares"(Hebrews 13:2) Even unaware of Raphael's true identity, nonetheless, Tobit twice makes ironic reference to a "good angel" who will accompany his son on the journey (Tobit 5:16,21). Likewise, when the trip was over, but before he learns Raphael's identity, Tobit blesses God's "holy angels"(11:14). Tobias had traveled in company with the angel even without knowing it.

The journey on which Raphael proposed to lead Tobias, from Nineveh to Rages, was a fairly long one, about 200 miles, and much of it up-hill. Yet, in the oldest extant manuscript containing the Book of Tobit (Codex Sinaiticus), a copyist's hand inserted the remark that their trip required only two days! Recalling that the swift army of Alexander needed ten days to march the same distance (cf. Plutarch, *Lives* "Alexander" 42), one is prompted to reflect on the hitherto unsuspected advantages of traveling with an angelic companion.

They also brought along the family dog, so we see Tobias traveling with both an angelic and an animal companion, representing the twin worlds of spirit and biology, those two realms of experience in which man travels through this world. 

St. Jerome, who tells us that he translated the Book of Tobit from Greek into Latin in the course of a single night, was intrigued by that dog. Although he must have been pretty tired as he came to the end of his candlelight labor during the morning hours of that night, Jerome was still sufficiently alert to do something rather imaginative with Tobias's dog. He actually altered the text of the Book of Tobit, a thing he felt free to do, since he did not believe the book to be canonical (a distinctly eccentric view among the Latin Fathers, be it noted). Jerome inserted a detail-or, more accurately, a *tail*-in the Vulgate's description of Tobias's return: "Then the dog, which had been with them in the way, ran before, and coming as if it had brought the news, showed his joy by fawning and wagging his tail." That wagging is not in the Septuagint text, nor even is the tail. Jerome made it up.

It is not difficult to discern why the prankish Jerome engaged in this little witticism. Struck by the story's resemblance to Homer's *Odyssey*, which also tells of a man's journey back to the home of his father, Jerome remembered Argus, the dog of Odysseus, the first friend to recognize that ancient traveler on his return to Ithaca. The old and weakened Argus, Homer wrote, when he recognized his master's voice, "endeavored to wag his tail" (*Odyssey* 17.302).

There was more than a joke involved here, however. Jerome correctly regarded the trip of Tobias, like the travels of Odysseus, as a symbol of man's journey through this world, returning to the paternal home. Jerome saw that Tobias takes his place with Gilgamesh, Theseus, Jason and the Argonauts, Aeneas, and the other great travelers of literature. It is the Bible's teaching that we do not make this life-long trip alone. We are accompanied by "an angel of peace, a faithful guide, a guardian of our souls and bodies."

----------


## Jamesiv1

> The problem, Peter, is that you put modern 'scholars' above the Church and the saints to fit your theology.


No... the problem is people that think they have a lock on God.  That other spiritual paths are invalid. That one must believe and do what Christians do or you're going to burn in the eternal hellfires of damnation or some such.

That is just so incredibly wrong.  No way on earth (or heaven) Jesus would say that.

----------


## TER

> No... the problem is people that think they have a lock on God.  That other spiritual paths are invalid. That one must believe and do what Christians do or you're going to burn in the eternal hellfires of damnation or some such.
> 
> That is just so incredibly wrong.  No way on earth (or heaven) Jesus would say that.


Thank you for your concern.  Please feel free to start another thread about it.  We are trying to keep this from derailing any more than I have already done so.  Thanks!

----------


## PierzStyx

> I'm still waiting for somebody to explain how the sacrifice of Jesus can save fallen angels.


You assume they want salvation. Lucifer knew of the absolute reality of God, yet Lucifer turned against God and rebelled against Him. Lucifer gave himself over totally to his pride, and his sin. Think about how hard it is to convince someone in their pride, who is absolutely convinced they are right, to change their ways. Then magnify that by the light and intelligence one gains from living directly in God's presence but has been warped and turned towards greed and self-aggrandizement. Lucifer is most likely so convinced of his absolute righteousness that he and those who followed him see no need or reason for repentance. To them God must repent and ask their forgiveness. Just theory of course, but based on theology.

----------


## PierzStyx

> The problem, Peter, is that you put modern 'scholars' above the Church and the saints to fit your theology.  Christians conform to the Church and humbly learn from the saints.  Christians don't create new religions.


The church is nothing but scholars. Anytime you cite a Saint all you're doing is citing a dead scholar over a living one. The dead have no inherent authority greater than the living. Having no revelation from Heaven, neither tradition nor saintly statement are convincing on their own. Neither the church, any church, nor it's members or leaders are infallible.

----------


## PierzStyx

> I agree.  And the entire "Orthodox" Church is a part of a self-created religion.


Ironic coming from someone who is part of a religious movement that had never appeared on the Earth before 1514.

----------


## Terry1

> Pretty much.. it is tongue in cheek.
> I ascribe to no particular "brand" or denomination. I had often described myself an simply a believer,, or a generic Christian,, but some people keep pushing  to the point that I simply made one up.. (and it usually keeps people for pressing the issue)
> 
> Very little was known of the Druids.. they were wiped out (Genocide?) by the Roman  Church.
> They did have some pieces (from what is known) of truth mixed with a lot of error. They worshiped the Creature more than the Creator. But that has long been a common error.
> For me it is a recognition of Creation as the works of God.. and of myself stuck in this flesh in this flawed and corrupted world.
> God is my Father and I am a spiritual being,, but the Earth is my mother and I am stuck in this clay form.
> My hope is not in this world,,  and I look forward to being free from it,, but for now.. I accept both.
> 
> If that helps you understand.


Yes, the ancient druids were condemned by Rome, but druidism is still being practiced by the neo druids of today as well.  It is a satanic occult practice.  So you don't want to tell people that this is who you are if your not, even joking around. 

There are many Christians that do not subscribe to any particular denomination--I do not judge on this because there are many people who love the Lord in many diverse places on this earth.  Everyone has to live their own spiritual convictions in the Lord.

----------


## Terry1

> The problem, Peter, is that you put modern 'scholars' above the Church and the saints to fit your theology.  Christians conform to the Church and humbly learn from the saints.  Christians don't create new religions.


This is so true TER.  I believe that those who sincerely seek will find the right path, sometimes it takes a long time for some and others not.

----------


## pcosmar

> This is so true TER.  I believe that those who sincerely seek will find the right path, sometimes it takes a long time for some and others not.


And actually,, I had addressed this months ago. post #56




> For all in this thread,, and other threads of contention..
> 
> *Never, Never, Never* try to force scripture to fit your theology.
> 
> Let the Word reshape your theology. The writings of scholarly men,, the traditions of men can be misleading. They write from their understanding,, which may sometimes be helpful,and may also be misleading.
> 
> Let the Word and the Spirit teach you.
> 
> We all,, only see part of the picture and that dimly. myself included. But my experience is,, that God has corrected some of my misconceptions in the past. and I have had to readjust my thinking accordingly.
> ...


And it still applies today.

----------


## pcosmar

I don't know how to post,

I think this is an important subject. Not necessarily  a requirement to salvation. I knew little to nothing about it when I first believed. I learned a bit from study..and I have heard many "teachers", 

I don't want to be argumentative,, though threads sometimes go that way.

And I don't know how to post,,
This is still an important subject, and worth exploring,,learning, possibly understanding. Certainly worth the attempt.

It is an important subject, in light of recent current events. Maybe especially because of current events.

The media is focused on the Yadizi, "a religious minority" in danger of Genocide.

This is a thread about Angels right?

*I don't know how to post.*
I am curious of arguments this might stir.

I am afraid I am just an uneducated laity of unknown  origin,, Certainly not as eloquent as some.

Yes there are angels, quite powerful beings mostly. And there is a war on. How much do you want to explore in that knowledge?
I don't know how to post.
But I will give my views and understanding on the subject.

----------


## pcosmar

*Those who are with us are more than those who are with them*




> Now when the attendant of the man of God had risen early and gone out, behold, an army with horses and chariots was circling the city. And his servant said to him, "Alas, my master! What shall we do?" So he answered, "*Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.*" Then Elisha prayed and said, "O LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see." And the LORD opened the servant's eyes and he saw; and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.…






> It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in humans.

----------


## pcosmar

Revelation



> And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.…


Enoch



> And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. And they said one to another: 'The earth made without inhabitant cries the voice of their cryingst up to the gates of heaven. And now to you, the holy ones of heaven, the souls of men make their suit, saying, "Bring our cause before the Most High."' And they said to the Lord of the ages: 'Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, and God of the ages, the throne of Thy glory (standeth) unto all the generations of the ages, and Thy name holy and glorious and blessed unto all the ages! Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou: and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. 
> 
> Thou seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn: And Semjaza, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins. And the women have borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying and making their suit to the gates of heaven, and their lamentations have ascended: and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are wrought on the earth. And Thou knowest all things before they come to pass, and Thou seest these things and Thou dost suffer them, and Thou dost not say to us what we are to do to them in regard to these.'


Genesis



> 6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
> 
> 2 That the *sons of God* saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
> 
> 3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
> 
> 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
> 
> 5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
> ...


Job



> Now there was a day when the* sons of God* came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan  also came among them.  The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.”

----------


## Mach

*444*

----------


## Sola_Fide

> This thread is an abomination.





> I agree.  Christians don't look to anyone but Christ for intercession.





> I didn't read the article (sorry, but its long and I have stuff to do), but did anyone here advocate worshipping angels or putting visions above the Word of God?


Prayer is a form of worship.  This thread really is an abomination.

----------


## pcosmar

> Prayer is a form of worship.  This thread really is an abomination.


I have never suggested "praying to angels". In fact,,in times past some old saints fell down to worship these powerful beings when visited,, and the angels forbade it.

However you seem intent on denying the existence of them,, or of the works they do.

You have gone as far as calling it heresy and that it is unscriptural.. which only highlights your ignorance of scripture.




> For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways;





> Praise the LORD, you his angels, you mighty ones who do his bidding, who obey his word.





> Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?


You flaunt ignorance like it is a badge of honor.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> I have never suggested "praying to angels". In fact,,in times past some old saints fell down to worship these powerful beings when visited,, and the angels forbade it.
> 
> * However you seem intent on denying the existence of them,, or of the works they do.*
> 
> You have gone as far as calling it heresy and that it is unscriptural.. which only highlights your ignorance of scripture.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Quote where I have ever said angels don't exist.  I'll wait to see it.

----------


## pcosmar

> Quote where I have ever said angels don't exist.  I'll wait to see it.


I will have to go find them.. Both you and Nang were mucking up another thread on the subject.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> I will have to go find them.. Both you and Nang were mucking up another thread on the subject.


Okay.  I'll wait for the quotes.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> I have never suggested "praying to angels". In fact,,in times past some old saints fell down to worship these powerful beings when visited,, and the angels forbade it.
> 
> However you seem intent on denying the existence of them,, or of the works they do.
> 
> You have gone as far as calling it heresy and that it is unscriptural.. which only highlights your ignorance of scripture.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Indeed he does.  That is why ignore is such a useful function.  It prevent pollution of the mind by useless and destructive thoughts/debates/conversations.  Science, philosophy, and religion all agree that thoughts are, from the brain's perspective, real things that can enlighten or harm the mind.  Keep this in mind before engaging people who bring destructive tendencies to conversations like S_F, brother.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Indeed he does.  That is why ignore is such a useful function.  It prevent pollution of the mind by useless and destructive thoughts/debates/conversations.  Science, philosophy, and religion all agree that thoughts are, from the brain's perspective, real things that can enlighten or harm the mind.  Keep this in mind before engaging people who bring destructive tendencies to conversations like S_F, brother.


The ignore function is for cowards...people who are not secure enough in their worldview to take it in to the arena of ideas and debate it.

----------


## Ender

> The ignore function is for cowards...people who are not secure enough in their worldview to take it in to the arena of ideas and debate it.


So says the brave one who will not answer questions and changes the dialog to meet his own criteria- 100% of the time. 

No debates with you, dude- only chastisement and damning of others.

----------


## Ender

And, yes, there are angels, including Guardians.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> And, yes, there are angels, including Guardians.


Should you pray to anything other than God?  Prayer is an act of worship, so should acts of worship be performed to any other than God?  This is what the EOC believes, which is an abomination.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> So says the brave one who will not answer questions and changes the dialog to meet his own criteria- 100% of the time. 
> 
> No debates with you, dude- only chastisement and damning of others.


Ok, what question do you think I haven't answered?  Let's start a "ask SF anything" thread.

----------


## moostraks

> The ignore function is for cowards...people who are not secure enough in their worldview to take it in to the arena of ideas and debate it.


II Timothy 3:3 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

Matthew 10:14Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> II Timothy 3:3 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, *5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power*. Avoid such people.


Great verse.   All the religions of man that say you must do works to get to heaven (like the EOC) have the appearance of godliness but deny God's power.  They say man's power is sufficient to earn his place in heaven.  Only the Biblical position doesn't deny God's power, because it says that salvation is by God's power ALONE.

----------


## moostraks

> Great verse.   All the religions of man that say you must do works to get to heaven (like the EOC) have the appearance of godliness but deny God's power.  They say man's power is sufficient to earn his place in heaven.  Only the Biblical position doesn't deny God's power, because it says that salvation is by God's power ALONE.


I John 4:New American Standard Bible
Testing the Spirits

      1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 4You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.


God Is Love

      7Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

      15Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19We love, because He first loved us. 20If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> I John 4:New American Standard Bible
> Testing the Spirits
> 
> *1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world*. 2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 4You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.


Great verse!  Because many false prophets have gone out into the world, it is necessary that we test the spirits, whether they are of God or not.  This is why it is so important to be discerning, and to realize that many paths lead to destruction, but only one path leads to life.





> God Is Love
> 
>       7Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. *10In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.* 14We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
> 
>       15Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19We love, because He first loved us. 20If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.


Great verse!  Love is not that Christians love God, but that God loved His elect first and sent His Son to be the propitiation for their sins.  He gives His elect His Spirit so that they know they abide in God.

----------


## moostraks

> Great verse!  Because many false prophets have gone out into the world, it is necessary that we test the spirits, whether they are of God or not.  This is why it is so important to be discerning, and to realize that many paths lead to destruction, but only one path leads to life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great verse!  Love is not that Christians love God, but that God loved His elect first and sent His Son to be the propitiation for their sins.  He gives His elect His Spirit so that they know they abide in God.


I John 4:11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

John 8:8 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> John 8:8 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
> 
> 2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
> 
> 3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
> 
> 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
> 
> 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
> ...


Do you ever read the footnotes at the bottom of your Bible?  Do you know what the pericope adulterae is?

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## pcosmar

> 15 Ye judge after the flesh;* I judge no man*.
> 
> 16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.


He came to Redeem man.
Hell was never made for man.

let that sink in.
 "I judge no man"

This goes to a point that I have tried to make in the past..
this trial,, and the judgement,, is not for Man. but for Satan and his followers.

He will judge the angels.

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## Sola_Fide

> He came to Redeem man.
> Hell was never made for man.
> 
> let that sink in.
>  "I judge no man"
> 
> This goes to a point that I have tried to make in the past..
> this trial,, and the judgement,, is not for Man. but for Satan and his followers.
> 
> He will judge the angels.


Do you ever read the footnotes at the bottom of your Bible? Do you know what the _pericope adulterae_ is?

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## moostraks

> Do you ever read the footnotes at the bottom of your Bible?  Do you know what the pericope adulterae is?





I John 4:8He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 

We should be identifiable by the Love that is in us, loving others as He loves us, sacrificing for others.

Galatians 5:For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

Ephesians 4:17 Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. 18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. 19 They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. 20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!— 21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22 to put off your old self,which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

25 Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. 26 Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, 27 and give no opportunity to the devil. 28 Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. 29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

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## pcosmar

> Do you ever read the footnotes at the bottom of your Bible? Do you know what the _pericope adulterae_ is?


So now you are choosing what you choose to ignore. interesting.

so what about Luke 7 (similar story,,and perhaps the same woman)




> But wisdom is justified of all her children.

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## Sola_Fide

> I John 4:8He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 
> 
> We should be identifiable by the Love that is in us, loving others as He loves us, sacrificing for others.
> 
> Galatians 5:For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
> 
> 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
> 
> 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
> ...


 Do you know what the pericope adulterae is?

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## Sola_Fide

> So now you are choosing what you choose to ignore. interesting.
> 
> so what about Luke 7 (similar story,,and perhaps the same woman)


 Do you know what the pericope adulterae is?

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## pcosmar

> Do you know what the pericope adulterae is?


I looked it up and discarded it's irrelevance.

Next.

I also ignore footnotes in bibles.

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## Sola_Fide

> I looked it up and discarded it's irrelevance.
> 
> Next.


What did you discard?

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## pcosmar

> What did you discard?


The attempt to disparage the passage,, 

What does that have to do with Angels?

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## Sola_Fide

By the way, all believers (believers only) will appear before the judgment seat of Christ to receive their rewards for what they've done in this life.  Christ does judge:




> *2nd Corinthians 5:10 
> 
> “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad*.”

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## Sola_Fide

> The attempt to disparage the passage,, 
> 
> What does that have to do with Angels?


The "attempt"?   So you don't care about what the earliest texts say?  You don't care about reading insertions by copyists?  Wow.  I do.  I want to know exactly what the earliest manuscripts say.

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## pcosmar

> The "attempt"?   So you don't care about what the earliest texts say?  You don't care about reading insertions by copyists?  Wow.  I do.  I want to know exactly what the earliest manuscripts say.


Actually,, those earliest known/surviving texts do have something(a space) there (that was removed) and some found later do have the text.

I also used to have a Scofield Reference bible,, when I was new in the Lord. It has long been discarded,, though I am still learning of error I picked up from it.

I discard foot notes. and go straight to the source.

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## Sola_Fide

> Actually,, those earliest known/surviving texts do have something(a space) there (that was removed) and some found later do have the text.
> 
> I also used to have a Scofield Reference bible,, when I was new in the Lord. It has long been discarded,, though I am still learning of error I picked up from it.
> 
> I discard foot notes. and go straight to the source.



You discard the footnotes?  Why?  The footnotes tell you what the sources are.  How can you know what the sources are if you don't read the footnotes?

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## pcosmar

> You discard the footnotes?  Why?  The footnotes tell you what the sources are.  How can you know what the sources are if you don't read the footnotes?


I talk to my Father.




> "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.…





> But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

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## pcosmar

> You discard the footnotes?  Why?  The footnotes tell you what the sources are.  How can you know what the sources are if you don't read the footnotes?


Reminds me of,,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5diMImYIIA
"If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding, how can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat!"

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## Sola_Fide

> I talk to my Father.


When you read the pericope adulterae, does the Father speak to you?

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## heavenlyboy34

> Reminds me of,,
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5diMImYIIA
> "If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding, how can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat!"


I don't agree with S_F very much on anything related to scripture, but he has a valid point here.  The footnotes can be quite useful when doing a deep study of the text.  Those that add clarity to the translation are especially helpful, as so much is lost in translation-especially from the source languages into English.

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## pcosmar

> When you read the pericope adulterae, does the Father speak to you?


Yes,, and I am reminded of several other places were Gods Forgiveness is clearly shown.

Rahab the Harlot,, King David and Bathsheba,,  many others..

Jesus surrounded himself with notable sinners..and forgave them.

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## pcosmar

> I don't agree with S_F very much on anything related to scripture, but he has a valid point here.


That would make two of us,, both from very different backgrounds and church leanings.. And several others who call on the Name of Christ.

Digging can be helpful,, and can be misleading.depending on the footnotes.

Some have thought this act of forgiveness should be removed.. And it seems that in some old manuscripts it was removed (though there is a space where whatever was removed ,,was)
Do you think it should be removed.?

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## moostraks

> Do you know what the pericope adulterae is?




Ephesians 4:Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

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## Sola_Fide

> Ephesians 4:Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. 30 *And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.* 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.


Great post!  Do you believe that the Holy Spirit seals believers for the day of redemption?  I thought you said people can lose their salvation?

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## pcosmar

And speaking of things removed,, and to get back to the subject of the thread..

The books of Enoch deal with ,,and expand on the subject of angels..
Some men decided to remove it from "cannon". it is not included in the books we know as the bible. I had not known of it till recently.

Jude knew of it.. and it was relevant enough for a man that walked and lived with Jesus to quote..

And though there is much about angels in what we have called "scripture",, it does give a greater understanding.
From a man Jude calls a prophet,, and who other books say "walked with God".

I believe it is worth the read,, especially on this subject.

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## Sola_Fide

> And speaking of things removed,, and to get back to the subject of the thread..
> 
> The books of Enoch deal with ,,and expand on the subject of angels..
> Some men decided to remove it from "cannon". it is not included in the books we know as the bible. I had not known of it till recently.
> 
> Jude knew of it.. and it was relevant enough for a man that walked and lived with Jesus to quote..
> 
> And though there is much about angels in what we have called "scripture",, it does give a greater understanding.
> From a man Jude calls a prophet,, and who other books say "walked with God".
> ...



Removed?  What is the evidence that the pericope adulterae was "removed"?  Is that in P66 somewhere?

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## moostraks

> Great post!  Do you believe that the Holy Spirit seals believers for the day of redemption?  I thought you said people can lose their salvation?





> II Timothy 3:3 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.
> 
> Matthew 10:14Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.


You don't listen to anything I say but merely look to manipulate for your own personal advantage, much like you use Scripture. There is no benefit in haviing a serious philosophical discussion with someone who lies about another person repetitively and without remorse.

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## pcosmar

> Great post!  Do you believe that the Holy Spirit seals believers for the day of redemption?  I thought you said people can lose their salvation?


The Bible say it can,, though to me it seems unlikely.. it is apparently not impossible.



> Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
> 
> 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
> 
> 3 And this will we do, if God permit.
> 
> 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
> 
> 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
> ...


Unlikely,, but apparently from this admonition,, not impossible.

I do not see how someone could reject Christ,, after having known him.

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## Sola_Fide

> You don't listen to anything I say but merely look to manipulate for your own personal advantage, much like you use Scripture. There is no benefit in haviing a serious philosophical discussion with someone who lies about another person repetitively and without remorse.





> Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post 
> 
> II Timothy 3:3 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5* having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.
> *


Great post!  All the religions of man that teach man must do things to contribute to his salvation have a form of godliness, but deny God's power.  Only the true gospel of Jesus Christ honors God's power because it teaches that salvation comes from God ALONE.  The true gospel says that the elect are saved solely by God's power!

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## pcosmar

> Removed?  What is the evidence that the pericope adulterae was "removed"?  Is that in P66 somewhere?


What is the evidence that it was added?

I can read (very well since 4 yrs old) I read about it.. about it missing from some texts..and being found in others..
About a space where it was missing from some,, a space that is filled in others.

and about men who objected to the forgiveness of adultery.. Yes  I can read..

What is your point?,, Make it. and quit walking circles around it.

And what does it have to do with the *Subject of Angels*. Which is what this thread is about.

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## Sola_Fide

> The Bible say it can,, though to me it seems unlikely.. it is apparently not impossible.
> 
> 
> Unlikely,, but apparently from this admonition,, not impossible.
> 
> I do not see how someone could reject Christ,, after having known him.






> Hebrews 6:4-9
> 
> *It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance*. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
> 
> *Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation.*


"We are convinced of better things in your case--the things that have to do with salvation".  The people that the writer of Hebrews was talking about at the beginning of the passage were never saved.

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## Sola_Fide

> What is the evidence that it was added?


Because it is not found in any of the earliest Greek manuscripts. It wasn't until the 5th century that we start to see it in the manuscripts.

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## pcosmar

> The people that the writer of Hebrews was talking about at the beginning of the passage were never saved.


So says you.

Now stop derailing the thread. I will report it on the next post that is off subject.. simply because I am tired of your silly games.

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## Sola_Fide

> So says you.
> 
> Now stop derailing the thread. I will report it on the next post that is off subject.. simply because I am tired of your silly games.


Says "me"?

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## Sola_Fide

> Yes,, and I am reminded of several other places were Gods Forgiveness is clearly shown.
> 
> Rahab the Harlot,, King David and Bathsheba,,  many others..
> 
> Jesus surrounded himself with notable sinners..and forgave them.


Does the fact that the passage is not found in any Greek manuscripts for about 500-600 years speak to you at all?

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## TER

> The Bible say it can,, though to me it seems unlikely.. it is apparently not impossible.
> 
> 
> Unlikely,, but apparently from this admonition,, not impossible.
> 
> I do not see how someone could reject Christ,, after having known him.


Unfortunatley, happens all the time.  

We reject Christ not only by not having faith in Him, but by the sins we do.  Not following His commandments, we fall from grace and from communion with Him, just as Adam did in his disobedience.  By not having love and mercy, we cast God's judgement upon ourselves.  By not running the race, by not carrying our Cross which is selfless love of the other, in the trinitarian image of God as beings of communion, we quench the Spirit and risk being disqualified, as St. Paul put it.

  We must live our lives in this world in repentance on account of the many sins we do, yet not as those who have no hope, but rather in joyful sorrow and in expectant joy of going home to be with our Father, just like the prodigal son in the Lord's parable. 

  And like the son, to ask for forgiveness for having sinned against Him "and Heaven" - that is against His heavenly host (the angels). We too, like the son, must make a sincere and heartfelt commitment to change our lives, to become a lowly servant if He might take us back.  And when done in this spirit and from this humility and love of heart, our Father comes running out to greet us, to put His arms around us and embrace us, to place a ring upon our finger and a new robe upon our backs, and to kill the fatted calf and offer a festive celebration around a joyful table, which is a eucharistic prefiguring of the eschatological Divine Liturgy, which is the worship of His Church.  

This race is not done until we breath our last breath, and we must keep in mind that the saints reveal there is no repentance after death.  Our lives in this world will be revealed on the Last Day when Christ the Judge opens the divine ledgers and our sins will be known to all of creation.  Then, Christ, the Judge of mankind, will pronounce His judgment upon us, and many will say on that day 'Lord, Lord, I believe you!' and Christ will cast them into outer darkness on account of their presumption and disobedience and arrogance and above all LACK OF REPENTANCE, and every evil thing they had said and done, and the hurt and pain they caused upon their neighbor, will be the unending worm of self-conscious guilt and grief.  And from their experience, the love of God (Who will be all in all) will be an everlasting fire, and the Light of Truth will be a blinding and unbearable light.  Their own sins and lack of repentance, which they have chosen by their own evil wills, will lead them to turn away from the light of God, reject the love of God, and be to them an unending hell.  

May our loving Lord, Who desires all men to be saved and come to the truth, have mercy upon us and forgive us our trespasses.

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## moostraks

> Does the fact that the passage is not found in any Greek manuscripts for about 500-600 years speak to you at all?





> First, the textual evidence is hardly "proof positive". When scholars speak of the story not appearing in the "earliest manuscripts" what they essentially have in mind are only four manuscripts. Two of these are papyri that date to third century (P66 and P75) and two are codices that date to fourth century (Sinaiticus and Vaticanus).
> 
> We really ought to ask then whether these manuscripts give us the whole picture. Given the dearth of manuscripts from this time it is not entirely wise to rule out the possibility that other manuscripts may have included it. The fact that the four manuscripts we have omit this story may just be a historical accident.
> 
> But is there any reason to think that the Gospel did circulate with the story? Well, actually, yes. 
> 
> Didymus the Blind, a fourth century writer, refers to the story. Clearly then there is evidence that it was circulating at this time somehow.[5]
> 
> 
> ...


http://www.thesacredpage.com/2013/03...-adultery.html

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