# Lifestyles & Discussion > Peace Through Religion >  Court day in Heaven - purgatory, parole officer?

## RonZeplin

Catholics believe in purgatory, where you might do some time before getting into heaven.  

But is it possible to get booted out of heaven if you screw up there?  Despite having gone to Catholic schools through the 9th grade, I don't know the answer. 

I might have forgotten a few of the finer points, in the intervening decades.

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## TER

> Catholics believe in purgatory, where you might do some time before getting into heaven.  
> 
> But is it possible to get booted out of heaven if you screw up there?  Despite having gone to Catholic schools through the 9th grade, I don't know the answer. 
> 
> I might have forgotten a few of the finer points, in the intervening decades.


Edit:  I just realized you were talking about purgatory.  I don't know the answer to that and would defer to someone who knows more about it.

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## Christian Liberty

> Edit:  I just realized you were talking about purgatory.  I don't know the answer to that and would defer to someone who knows more about it.


No, you can't get booted out of heaven.  Its not possible to "screw up" in heaven.  And if a soul gets to purgatory, from a Catholic standpoint, they'll definitely make it to heaven, they just have to go through some type of suffering first.  What exactly that entails is not definitively defined by the Church.

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## VIDEODROME

It would be nice if someone got a written account from Lazarus

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## nikcers

I heard you can get deported for drinking too much Jack Daniel's



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vedgTokXj04

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## TER

> It would be nice if someone got a written account from Lazarus


Since you mention it, tradition states that St. Lazarus become the Bishop of Cyprus by the hands of St. Paul later in his life and that from the day he was raised from the dead until his repose in the Lord 30 years later, he never smiled or said a joke except on one occasion, recorded in the Synaxarion. One day, he saw someone stealing a clay pot and he smiled saying, "the clay steals the clay".

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## TER

Some more info on St. Lazarus :

According to Scripture and the tradition of the Cypriot church, Lazarus was compelled to seek refuge away from Jerusalem to avoid the anger of the high priests and the pharisees, who wanted to kill him, “...the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed in Jesus” (John 12:10-11). Many Christians too ... were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about. Stephen travelled as far as Phoenicia, and Cyprus, and Antioch ...; just like Stephen, Lazarus would have had to leave Judea to seek refuge in another country. This location was Kition in Cyprus.

When Apostle Paul and Apostle Barnabas travelled to Cyprus, they ordained Lazarus as the first Bishop of Kition. This is why all episcopal thrones in Larnaca have the icon of St. Lazarus instead of Christ, which is the standard custom of the church.

Another famous tradition related to Lazarus is the discovery of Mount Athos in 52 AD by the Theotokos. Lazarus was very close to the Virgin Mary and he was very grieved that he could not return to Jerusalem to visit her (he was still in fear of the Jews). The Theotokos learned of his sorrow and sent him a letter to comfort him. She asked that he might send a ship to her that she might visit him in Cyprus. With great joy, Lazarus sent a ship to the Holy Land to bring the Virgin Mary and John, the beloved disciple to Cyprus for a visit. However on their journey, a great storm blew them off course and carried them to the shores of Ephesus and then the ship to the shores of Athos, Greece. Unaware that divine providence had brought her to this area, the Virgin Mary completely taken by the beauty of the area, prayed to her son that this could be her garden devoted to prayer to "fight the good fight of faith". Having converted, blessed and established a new Christian community from the local idolaters they set sail for Cyprus and met with Lazarus.

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## TER

> No, you can't get booted out of heaven.  Its not possible to "screw up" in heaven.  And if a soul gets to purgatory, from a Catholic standpoint, they'll definitely make it to heaven, they just have to go through some type of suffering first.  What exactly that entails is not definitively defined by the Church.



That’s what I figured would be the explanation, but I am not familiar with purgatory as that is not a teaching of the Orthodox Church so I didn’t want to answer in case I was incorrect.  Thank you for the explanation!

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## euphemia

For the mainstream evangelical, there is no in between.  Once in heaven the redemptive process is complete.

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## TER

> For the mainstream evangelical, there is no in between.  Once in heaven the redemptive process is complete.


When do mainstream evangelicals believe this entrance into Heaven and immutable condition occurs?

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## euphemia

> When do mainstream evangelicals believe this entrance into Heaven and immutable condition occurs?


At death.

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## TER

> At death.


This does counter the early Church’s understanding however since the immutable condition of the person does not  occurs until the General Resurrection.  It is for this reason that the Church has always prayed for the departed because the prayers of the Church (both militant and triumphant) are believed to assist the departed souls in anticipation of the Coming Judgment.

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## euphemia

I understand this, and it’s what our church teaches.  I’m just not sure I am on board.  Jesus said, “Today you will be with me in paradise.”

Heaven is already being populated with believers.  I’m not sure what form that takes, but Paul said, “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.”  It’s hard to argue with that.

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## TER

> I understand this, and it’s what our church teaches.  I’m just not sure I am on board.  Jesus said, “Today you will be with me in paradise.”
> 
> Heaven is already being populated with believers.  I’m not sure what form that takes, but Paul said, “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.”  It’s hard to argue with that.


The good thief was in Paradise, which is in the presence of God, but he did not enter into the eschatologic Kingdom (aka Heaven) which will occur _at the end of days_, when God will be all in all and there will be a rebirth and new creation.  The good thief awaits for the Parousia and his bodily resurrection just as all the saints do who have ever lived.  He is paradise, but not in the Kingdom of Heaven.

St. Paul’s quote is true in that the disembodied saints are indeed present with the Lord, just as all those who die having lived holy and repentant lives.  But this is not the same thing as entering into the Kingdom of Heaven.  There’s is a condition of anticipation and exist mysteriously in a foretaste of the paradise to come.  However, until the Parousia and the General Resurrection, when they will rejoin into their body now spiritualized and santicified, nothing is immutable and thus even the lives of those who did not live holy lives _may_ find salvation at the Judgment through the prayers of the Church.

A common American Christian thing to say to someone who lost a loved one is: “They are now with the Lord and in peace”.  That would be appropriate to say when that someone was known for having lived a holy and repentent life, and who lived the Gospel.  (Unfortunately, not many live such lives).  But the more appropriate and Christian thing to say (and what is said in the older Christian Churches) to those who were not renowned for living saintly lives is:  May he find forgiveness and peace.  That is, to pray to God to forgive them for any sins they have committed in their life.

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## Suzanimal

> Catholics believe in purgatory, where you might do some time before getting into heaven.  
> 
> *But is it possible to get booted out of heaven if you screw up there?*  Despite having gone to Catholic schools through the 9th grade, I don't know the answer. 
> 
> I might have forgotten a few of the finer points, in the intervening decades.


Nah. I was taught purgatory is where you go for purification if you die in sin but are in God's grace.

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## euphemia

To be honest, it was not the hope of heaven that drew me to Jesus.  The older I get the more I think about it.  I’m certainly not afraid to die. 

I get that there are layers or phases to the eternal state, and I believe that.  It’s just too close to the idea of soul sleep that makes me not quite go all the way.

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## TER

> To be honest, it was not the hope of heaven that drew me to Jesus.  The older I get the more I think about it.  I’m certainly not afraid to die. 
> 
> I get that there are layers or phases to the eternal state, and I believe that.  It’s just too close to the idea of soul sleep that makes me not quite go all the way.



Soul sleep is a heresy of the past 150 years. Has nothing to do with the Christian teachings. The departed never sleep

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## TER

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man is the greatest parable of Christ regarding the state of those who die before the General Resurrection. The poor man was in ‘Abraham’s bosom’, not the Kingdom of Heaven.  He also was wide awake and well aware of what was happening in the world.

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## euphemia

> Soul sleep is a heresy of the past 150 years. Has nothing to do with the Christian teachings. The departed never sleep


That’s why I want to be clear.

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## TER

> That’s why I want to be clear.


It is good to be cautious.

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## TER

> To be honest, it was not the hope of heaven that drew me to Jesus.


This reminds me of a teaching of one of the Fathers of the Church. There are three reasons why people are drawn to Christ and follow His commandments. The first is the fear of judgement and of hell.  That is the lowest and most base reason. The next is to enter Heaven.  The last, which is the greatest reason and the way of the Saints is out of pure love for God.

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## donnay

> I understand this, and its what our church teaches.  Im just not sure I am on board.  Jesus said, Today you will be with me in paradise.
> 
> Heaven is already being populated with believers.  Im not sure what form that takes, but Paul said, To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.  Its hard to argue with that.


The white throne judgment does not happen until after the millennium.  When we die, we all go to paradise but there is a right side and the side divided by a gulf where people were not properly taught the WORD of God--so the millennium (the Lord's Day) will be a time for teaching while Satan is locked up for 1,000 years.

Luke 16:26
And beside all this, between us and you there is a *great gulf fixed*: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 

Luke 16:19-31  speaks of Lazarus and the Rich man.  Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham on the right side of the gulf in Paradise.  The rich man was on the other side of the gulf and couldn't pass over.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a *great gulf fixed*: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

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## TER

> The white throne judgment does not happen until after the millennium.  When we die, we all go to paradise but there is a right side and the side divided by a gulf where people were not properly taught the WORD of God--so the millennium (the Lord's Day) will be a time for teaching while Satan is locked up for 1,000 years.


Just to be clear to any who reads this:  the explanation above is not what what any of the early Church Fathers teach.  People can interpret the Scriputres to mean that, but that was not interpretation of any of the Christian Saints.

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## donnay

> Just to be clear to any who reads this:  the explanation above is not what what any of the early Church Fathers teach.  People can interpret the Scriputres to mean that, but that was not interpretation of any of the Christian Saints.


It was of explanation from the Bible Scholar Ethelbert William Bullinger.   Luke was a physician so he used a medical term--gulf.

E.W. Bullinger's Companion Bible Notes
beside. Greek. epi. App-104.

is = has been.

*gulf = chasm. A transliteration of the Greek chasma, from chasko, to gape. A medical word for an open wound.*

fixed = set fast, established. Compare Luke 9:51 (set His face). Romans 1:11. 2 Peter 1:12.

would = desire to. Greek thelo. App-102.

to. Greek pros. App-101.

cannot = are not (Greek. me. App-105) able.

neither. Greek. mede.

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## TER

> It was of explanation from the Bible Scholar Ethelbert William Bullinger.   Luke was a physician so he used a medical term--gulf.
> 
> E.W. Bullinger's Companion Bible Notes
> beside. Greek. epi. App-104.
> 
> is = has been.
> 
> *gulf = chasm. A transliteration of the Greek chasma, from chasko, to gape. A medical word for an open wound.*
> 
> ...


It’s not the Greek term which I am referring to which is foreign to the teachings and interpretations of the Greek speaking Fathers of the Church.

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## Superfluous Man

> This does counter the early Church’s understanding however since the immutable condition of the person does not  occurs until the General Resurrection.  It is for this reason that the Church has always prayed for the departed because the prayers of the Church (both militant and triumphant) are believed to assist the departed souls in anticipation of the Coming Judgment.


Is your understanding of the early Church's teaching that after a person in Christ dies, when they are away from the body and present with the Lord, up until the resurrection, it's possible that they will change their minds and decide to join the ranks of Satan?

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## Superfluous Man

> Just to be clear to any who reads this:  the explanation above is not what what any of the early Church Fathers teach.  People can interpret the Scriputres to mean that, but that was not interpretation of any of the Christian Saints.


What part of what she said in that post do you believe no early church fathers taught?

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## euphemia

I think he is referring to soul sleep, which we both agree is incorrect teaching.

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## Superfluous Man

> I think he is referring to soul sleep, which we both agree is incorrect teaching.


But the quote he said that about didn't refer to soul sleep. And what it said about the millennium is a well attested teaching of the early church fathers, especially among the earliest of them. It was after the time of Origen and under his influence that later church fathers abandoned that formerly dominant belief in the Church. Granted, he may have been talking about another detail in the quote besides the point about the millennium.

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## donnay

> It’s not the Greek term which I am referring to which is foreign to the teachings and interpretations of the Greek speaking Fathers of the Church.


Sometimes we have to study the Word ourselves with help from God for wisdom and understanding.  The Companion Bible doesn't translate God's Word per se, it only translates the difference in the languages (tongues)--Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic.  "Air" in Hebrew has a different meaning than the word "air" in Greek.




> A FIGURE is simply a word or a sentence thrown into a peculiar form, different from its original or simplest meaning or use. These forms are constantly used by every speaker and writer. It is impossible to hold the simplest conversation, or to write a few sentences without, it may be unconsciously, making use of figures. We may say, "the ground needs rain ": that is a plain, cold, matter-of-fact statement; but if we say "the ground is thirsty, " we immediately use a figure. It is not true to fact, and therefore it must be a figure. But how true to feeling it is! how full of warmth and life! Hence, we say, "the crops suffer "; we speak of "a hard heart, " "a rough man, " "an iron will. " In all these cases we take a word which has a certain, definite meaning, and apply the name, or the quality, or the act, to some other thing with which it is associated, by time or place, cause or effect, relation or resemblance.
> 
> Some figures are common to many languages; others are peculiar to some one language. There are figures used in the English language, which have nothing that answers to them in Hebrew or Greek; and there are Oriental figures which have no counterpart in English; while there are some figures in various languages, arising from human infirmity and folly, which find, of course, no place in the word of God.
> 
> It may be asked, "How are we to know, then, when words are to be taken in their simple, original form (i.e., literally), and when they are to be taken in some other and peculiar form (i.e., as a Figure)?" The answer is that, whenever and wherever it is possible, the words of Scripture are to be understood literally, but when a statement appears to be contrary to our experience, or to known fact, or revealed truth; or seems to be at variance with the general teaching of the Scriptures, then we may reasonably expect that some figure is employed. And as it is employed only to call our attention to some specially designed emphasis, we are at once bound to diligently examine the figure for the purpose of discovering and learning the truth that is thus emphasized.
> 
> From non-attention to these Figures, translators have made blunders as serious as they are foolish. Sometimes they have translated the figure literally, totally ignoring its existence; sometimes they have taken it fully into account, and have translated, not according to the letter, but according to the spirit; sometimes they have taken literal words and translated them figuratively. Commentators and interpreters, from inattention to the figures, have been led astray from the real meaning of many important passages of God's Word; while ignorance of them has been the fruitful parent of error and false doctrine. It may be truly said that most of the gigantic errors of Rome, as well as the erroneous and conflicting views of the Lord's People, have their root and source, either in figuratively explaining away passages which should be taken literally, or in taking literally what has been thrown into a peculiar form or Figure of language: thus, not only falling into error, but losing the express teaching, and missing the special emphasis which the particular Figure was designed to impart to them.
> 
> This is an additional reason for using greater exactitude and care when we are dealing with the words of God. Man's words are scarcely worthy of such study. Man uses figures, but often at random and often in ignorance or in error. But "the words of the Lord are pure words. " All His works are perfect, and when the Holy Spirit takes up and uses human words, He does so, we may be sure, with unerring accuracy, infinite wisdom, and perfect beauty.


https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/bullinger.html

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## euphemia

> But the quote he said that about didn't refer to soul sleep. And what it said about the millennium is a well attested teaching of the early church fathers, especially among the earliest of them. It was after the time of Origen and under his influence that later church fathers abandoned that formerly dominant belief in the Church. Granted, he may have been talking about another detail in the quote besides the point about the millennium.


My bad.  I missed some posts in between.

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## TER

> Sometimes we have to study the Word ourselves with help from God for wisdom and understanding.  The Companion Bible doesn't translate God's Word per se, it only translates the difference in the languages (tongues)--Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic.  "Air" in Hebrew has a different meaning than the word "air" in Greek.
> 
> 
> https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/bullinger.html


I apologize as it appears I caused some confusion.  I should have been more clear.

Donnay, are you stating that we are currently in the millennium, or that it will be a future event after Christs return?

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## euphemia

Based on study, I believe it will be after.

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## TER

> Is your understanding of the early Church's teaching that after a person in Christ dies, when they are away from the body and present with the Lord, up until the resurrection, it's possible that they will change their minds and decide to join the ranks of Satan?


I don’t see how that is possible.  It is like putting a fish into beautiful water and then expecting it to jump out to choke in the air.  It would take some seriously spiritually sick person to experience paradise after death and then change their mind and decide to join the ranks of Satan.  I have not heard of anything like that happening in the history of the Church although I guess it may be possible(?).  After all, angels fell.  

What _has_ happened and been recorded in the history of the Church however is the opposite, namely that a person who died unrepentant and in sin be raised out of perdition and enter into paradise through the prayers of the Saints.

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## TER

> Based on study, I believe it will be after.




These are the major opinions, some ancient some modern.  The one held by to be orthodox by every one of the Churches which can trace back to the Apostles (namely, the Orthodox, the Roman Catholic, and the Oriental Orthodox, +/- Anglican) is the bottom one (called Amillennialism).  All others are opinions which have been rejected as being in error.

People can believe whatever they choose to believe.  I am just stating the above for those who wish to know what the oldest Christian Churches teach as being correct.

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## euphemia

Yes, I studied that in college.  Nobody has ever said straight out that our church is amillennial, but it comes across in some of the teaching.  

Again, not a hill to die on where I am concerned.  I live out my faith every day.  I came to faith because I want a relationship with God.  That may not sound right, but it was the best way my 14 yo mind could describe it.

The topic I’m most interested in right now is suffering.  We can start a new thread about that.

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## TER

> Yes, I studied that in college.  Nobody has ever said straight out that our church is amillennial, but it comes across in some of the teaching.  
> 
> Again, not a hill to die on where I am concerned.  I live out my faith every day.  I came to faith because I want a relationship with God.  That may not sound right, but it was the best way my 14 yo mind could describe it.
> 
> The topic I’m most interested in right now is suffering.  We can start a new thread about that.


Of course, this (Millennialism) shouldn’t be a hill to die on, but it may have significance in one’s life journey.  The state of the departed and our prayers for them, however, are important.

The topic of suffering is another extremely important topic and I would gladly welcome a thread about it, especially as some modern Christian denominations have lost sight of it (I’m thinking of the Prosperity Gospel advocates, etc).  The simple truth is that without Golgotha, there is no Resurrection.  Following Christ means picking up our cross and following him, even to Golgotha.

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## tfurrh

> These are the major opinions, some ancient some modern.  The one held by to be orthodox by every one of the Churches which can trace back to the Apostles (namely, the Orthodox, the Roman Catholic, and the Oriental Orthodox, +/- Anglican) is the bottom one (called Amillennialism).  All others are opinions which have been rejected as being in error.
> 
> People can believe whatever they choose to believe.  I am just stating the above for those who wish to know what the oldest Christian Churches teach as being correct.


It is my understanding that classic premillennialism (top) has been around since the early church, but that dispensational premillennialism is a fairly recent theology (eschatology) dating no earlier than the mid 1800s. Am I wrong on this?

BTW I would say I'm an amillennialism with a partial preterist bent.

Edit. I didn't read good enough to see where your post said "some ancient some modern."

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## TER

> It is my understanding that classic premillennialism (top) has been around since the early church, but that dispensational premillennialism is a fairly recent theology (eschatology) dating no earlier than the mid 1800s. Am I wrong on this?
> 
> BTW I would say I'm an amillennialism with a partial preterist bent.
> 
> Edit. I didn't read good enough to see where your post said "some ancient some modern."


Yes.  There were some in the early Church who held to classic premillennialism.  When the topic finally came to a point where the Church needed to clarify, Millennialism was deemed to be in error and at the Second Ecumenical Council it was added to the Nicene Creed the statement that Christ "shall come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead, Whose Kingdom shall have no end." This was added to make it clear that there would be no temporary millennial kingdom, but an eternal one.  

This is one example of how it is through the consensus on the Church whereby the truth is revealed.  A few Early Church Fathers could have had held a differing opinion, but this opinion has now been corrected by the living witness, experience, and voice of the whole Church.  Now, there is no excuse to believe in Millennialism (at least, in the eyes of the Orthodox Christians).

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## tfurrh

> Yes.  There were some in the early Church who held to classic premillennialism.  When the topic finally came to a point where the Church needed to clarify, Millennialism was a deemed to be in error and at the Second Ecumenical Counci it was added to the Nicene Creed the statement that Christ "shall come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead, Whose Kingdom shall have no end." This was added to make it clear that there would be no temporary millennial kingdom, but an eternal one.  
> 
> This is one example of how it is through the consensus on the Church whereby the truth is finally revealed.  A few Early Church Fathers could have had held a differing opinion, but this opinion has now been drowned out by the living witness and voice of the whole Church.  Now, there is no excuse to believe in Millennialism (at least, in the eyes of the Orthodox Christians).


That's how it _should_ happen....what happened with purgatory? Honest question.

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## TER

> That's how it _should_ happen....what happened with purgatory? Honest question.


I’m not sure.  The Orthodox Church does not teach this.  This teaching started in the Roman Catholic Church after the Great Schism and was first defined by the Catholic Church in 1274.

Had the Great Schism not had happened, then _presumably_ this teaching would have not become an official doctrine of the Roman See as the remaining Bishops of Christendom would have not accepted it had it come before a Ecumenical Council.  This doctrine developed specifically as a Latin phenomenon, apart from the Eastern Church.

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## donnay

> I apologize as it appears I caused some confusion.  I should have been more clear.
> 
> Donnay, are you stating that we are currently in the ‘millennium”, or that it will be a future event after Christ’s return?


The Lord's Day (AKA: The Millennium) is the future.  That is after the seventh trump, seventh vial, and seventh seal.

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## TER

> The Lord's Day (AKA: The Millennium) is the future.  That is after the seventh trump, seventh vial, and seventh seal.


And then you believe that Christ will reign on earth for a thousand years before the Last Judgment?

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## Superfluous Man

> What _has_ happened and been recorded in the history of the Church however is the opposite, namely that a person who died unrepentant and in sin be raised out of perdition and enter into paradise through the prayers of the Saints.


What is an example of that that's recorded in Church history? If it did happen, how would anyone on earth even know it?

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## donnay

> And then you believe that Christ will reign on earth for a thousand years before the Last Judgment?


That is correct.  One day with the Lord is as a thousand years with man--hence the Lord's Day.  The millennium (The Lord's Day) is the time for teaching while Satan will be completely locked away so people will not be deceived or distracted.  

2 Peter 3:8  (KJV)
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


Revelation 20:1-3
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

Revelation 20:4-6
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:7-10
When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

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## TER

> What is an example of that that's recorded in Church history? If it did happen, how would anyone on earth even know it?


There are instances recorded within the Hagiographies of such things happening.  I will list a few:

In the life of St. Gregory the Dialogist, Pope of Rome.  Once as he was going along a road, St. Gregory suddenly stopped and began to pray for the forgiveness of sins of the emperor Trajan who was already dead.  Soon he heard the following words from God: “I have hearkened unto thy prayers and grant remission of sins to Trajan,  but henceforth off Me no prayers for the unrighteous”.

At another time, St. Gregory the Dialogist told the story: "One brother," he says, "for breaking the vow of poverty, was deprived of a church funeral and prayers after his death for a period of thirty days, in order to strike fear in the hearts of the others. But later, out of compassion for his soul, the Bloodless Sacrifice and prayers were offered up for him for the space of thirty days. On the last of these days, the deceased appeared in a vision to his brother, whom he had left among the living, and said: 'Until now it has gone badly for me, but now I am at peace, for today I received communion.'"

This same holy Father, in his dialogues with the Deacon Peter, tells of the apparition of a dead man who begged a priest to help him by praying for him to God. "From this it is obvious," he concludes, "how profitable the Sacred Sacrifice is for souls; for the souls themselves ask it of the living, and indicate the means by which they are cleansed of sins."

There are two instances with St. Benedict regarding miraculous events demonstrating that through the prayers of the Church and the offering of the prosphora (the bread to be used in the Holy Eucharist). The first instance was when two nuns who had lived sinful lives died.  They were buried in the Church.  Certain worthy (read:holy) persons noticed that every time the decon said “Catechumens depart” during the Liturgy, the two nuns would get out of their tombs and leave the Church.  This was told to St. Benedict and after offering the prosphora to God on their behalf, the young nuns ceased to be seen leaving their tombs.  Another instance was of a young monk who had died in sin.  He was buried and the next day the body of the monk was found to be outside the coffin.  They buried him again, and again, the next day his body was found outside the coffin.  Only after St. Benedict ordered the Holy Eucharist be offered for him and placed a particle of the Holy Gifts on breast of dead man, did the body remain in the coffin after burial.

In another example, St. John the Merciful, Patriarch of Alexandria, often celebrated the Divine Liturgy for the dead, and stated that it is a great aid to their souls. To corroborate this, he cites the following:

"There was a certain prisoner whose parents, considering him dead, had the Liturgy served three times a year for him—on Theophany, Pascha and Pentecost. After he had been released from captivity, returning unexpectedly to his parents, he recalled that on those very days a certain man of glorious appearance came to him in prison carrying a torch. The fetters fell from his hands and he was freed; the rest of the days he was again in chains as a prisoner."

Other examples include St. Thecla (disciple of St. Paul and known in the Church as “equal to the Apostles”) who saved the dead pagan Falconilla from perdition through her intercessions, as revealed in a divine vision.

The Greek Emperor and Iconoclast Theophilus lived carelessly and did not concern himself with the salvation of his soul. Death found this sovereign in the midst of his sinful life. The Empress St. Theodora, Theophilus' consort, was horrified at the heavy lot that would befall her husband in eternity. At her behest, prayers were increased in the churches, alms were distributed, good works were performed. And what was the result? The prayers of the Church reached the Lord. Theophilus was forgiven, as revealed by a divine vision, to the spiritual joy of his grieving spouse and to the consolation of the Church, which has so merciful and mighty a Lord, Who gives life to the dead and leads them forth from the abyss of hell, not only bodily, but spiritually.

"But who can number," asks St. John of Damascus, "all of the testimonies found in the biographies of holy men, in the accounts of the lives of the holy martyrs and the divine revelations, which clearly indicate that even after death tremendous benefit is rendered to the departed by prayers, Liturgies and the distribution of alms for them. For nothing given to God perishes in return, but is rewarded by Him with the greatest interest."

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## TER

Here are some more examples:

St. John of Damascus relates: "A certain holy man had a disciple who was living heedlessly. And what happened? Death found him in the midst of his carelessness. The merciful Heavenly Father, roused by the tears and cries of the elder, revealed to him the youth burning in flames up to his neck, like the merciless rich man mentioned in the parable of Lazarus. And when the saint subjected his flesh to strict mortification, fervently beseeching God for the forgiveness of his disciple, he beheld him enveloped in flame up to his waist. Finally, when the holy man had increased his ascetic labors yet more, God revealed him in a vision to the elder, removed from the flame and completely free."

The holy martyr Perpetua relates: "One day, at the time of general prayer in prison, I unexpectedly uttered the name of my dead brother Dinocrates. Struck by this unusual occurrence, I began to pray and sigh for him before God. On the following night I received a vision: I saw Dinocrates come forth, as though from a dark place. He was in intense heat, tormented by thirst, filthy in appearance and pallid. On his face was the wound from which he had died. Between us yawned a deep crevasse, and we were unable to approach each other. Beside the place where Dinocrates stood there was a full cistern, the lip of which stood much higher than my brother's stature, and Dinocrates stretched, trying to reach the water. I was filled with pity, for the height of the rim prevented my brother from drinking. Immediately after this I awoke and realized that my brother was in torment. But believing that my prayer could help him in his suffering, I prayed all day and night in the prison, with cries and lamentations, that Dinocrates be treated mercifully. And on the day on which we were kept in chains, I received a new vision: the place which before I had seen had been made bright, and Dinocrates, with a clean face and beautiful apparel, was enjoying its coolness. Where he had had a wound, I saw only a trace of it. The rim of the cistern was no higher than the waist of the young man, and he was able to draw water from it without effort. On the rim of the cistern stood a golden cup full of water. Dinocrates approached it and began to drink from it, but the water in it did not decrease. Satisfied, he stepped away from it and began to rejoice. With this the vision ended. I then understood that he had been released from punishment.

One day the Venerable Macarius of Egypt was walking about the desert and found a dried-out human skull lying on the ground. Turning it over with his staff, the saint heard a sound, as though from a distance. Then Macarius asked the skull: "What manner of man wast thou?"

"I was the chief of the pagan priests that dwelt in this place," it replied. "When thou, O Abba Macarius, who art full of the Spirit of God, pray for us, taking pity on them that are in the torments of hell, we then receive a certain relief."

"And what manner of relief do ye receive?" asked Macarius. "And tell me, what torments are ye subjected to?"

"As far as heaven is above the earth," replied the skull with a groan, "so great is the fire in the midst of which we find ourselves, wrapped in flame from head to toe. At this time we cannot see each others' faces, but when thou prayest for us, we can see each other a little, and this affords us some consolation."

On hearing this reply, the venerable one wept and said: "Cursed is that day when man broke the divine ordinance!" And once again he asked the skull: "Are there any other tortures worse than yours?"

"Beneath us, much farther down, there are many others," it replied.

"And who are found in such unbearable torments?" asked Macarius.

"We who did not know God, yet experience the mercy of God a little," answered the skull. "But they that knew the name of God, yet rejected Him and did not keep His commandments, undergo much heavier and worse torments below."

After this St. Macarius took the skull, buried it in the ground and departed thence.

The Blessed Luke relates that he had a brother who, having, become a monk, concerned himself little with his soul and died, not having prepared himself for death. The holy elder wished to discover what his brother had been accounted worthy of, and he began to entreat God to reveal his lot. One day, during his prayers, the elder beheld the soul of his brother in the hands of demons. Meanwhile, money and costly things had been found in the cell of the deceased, from which the elder understood that the soul of his brother was suffering, among other reasons, for breaking the vow of poverty. All the money that had been found the elder gave to the poor. After that, he again began to pray, and beheld the judgment seat of God and the radiant angels contending with the demons for the soul of his brother. The demons cried out to God: "Thou art just! Judge Thou! This soul belongs to us, for it hath done our deeds!" But the angels said that the soul of the dead man had been freed by the alms which had been distributed for it. To this the evil spirits objected, saving: "Did the deceased distribute the alms, or did this elder distribute them?", indicating the Blessed Luke.

The elder was terrified by this vision, but nonetheless summoned up the courage to say: "It is true that I distributed the alms, but not for myself, but for this soul." The outraged spirits, hearing the elder's reply, straightway vanished, and the elder, consoled by this vision, ceased to doubt and grieve over the fate of his brother.

The holy Abbess Athanasia of Aegina stipulated in her testament that the sisters of her convent prepare meals for the poor in her memory throughout the forty days following her demise. But the nuns carried out this command only until the ninth day, and afterwards ceased. Then the saint appeared to them with two angels and said: "Why have ye forgotten my bequest? Know ye not that alms given for the soul until the fortieth day and the feeding of the poor move God to mercy as well as the prayers of the priests? If the souls of the departed were sinful, God granteth them remission of sins; and if they were righteous, the charity performed on their behalf serves for the salvation of them that perform the charitable works." Having said this, the Venerable Athanasia drove her staff into the ground and vanished. The next day the sisters saw that her staff had sprouted. Then they gave glory to God, the Creator of all things

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## TER

Here are some great resources on this topic:

https://www.amazon.com/Soul-After-De.../dp/093863514X

https://www.amazon.com/How-Our-Depar...s%2C122&sr=1-1

https://www.amazon.com/Eternal-Myste...PH8VAFBVM2KE2K

https://www.amazon.com/after-Death-M...QB6MQE18HG4D6C

https://www.amazon.com/after-Death-a...ZPFBCHQFMBH8EE

https://www.amazon.com/Departure-Acc...QB6MQE18HG4D6C

I have read these and would highly recommend.  The last one, at over a thousand pages, is the most complete.

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## Working Poor

> The topic Im most interested in right now is suffering. We can start a new thread about that.


I am a part of a Bible study group that got on the topic of suffering. One of the people of the group brought in a Greek Bible with a concordance in it it said to suffer means to allow. That changed my whole perspective on suffering...

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## PursuePeace

I think everyone will suffer when coming face to face with God (God is love.) PURE LOVE. 
Refining fire. Silversmith. The silver is not destroyed in the fire, but the dross (non-love) is removed 
Every knee will bow.
His justice is Perfect. Not our sense of Justice. Divine justice. 
Suffering without a purpose is not God's way.
Infinite suffering for finite crimes is not God's way.
We're living in a world ruled by man and all of man's inadequacies and shortcomings and ignorance.
God is merciful and just to all.
We're here for a reason.
Every knee will bow.
1 Tim 4:10

That's all I have to say.
I'm not a religion debater anymore, but wanted to put it out there for the casual observer.

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## RonZeplin

> Nah. I was taught purgatory is where you go for purification if you die in sin but are in God's grace.


Yeah that sounds like what's taught. It's sort of like you qualify for heaven, but have a few buggers that need cleaning up.    Found a bit more...  




> *Proving Purgatory* *Definitions, etc.*
> 
> The  Catholic dogma of the existence of Purgatory is a part of the Christian  revelation given by Jesus Christ to His Apostles. It is the primary aim  of this article to prove this from the Bible. 2
> 
> What,  then are we talking about? It is necessary to define the word before we  prove the doctrine it labels. Purgatory is that state of temporary  punishment by which a person who is not condemned to Hell is purified of  sin or the debt of sin, before entering Heaven. It is a state of  purgation, hence the name. Purgatory is _not_ a middle place between Heaven and Hell where people unworthy of either place go. No, Purgatory is for _saved_  people. They will all end up in Heaven, and Purgatory will cease to  exist at the General Judgment. Therefore, Heaven and Hell will be the  only enduring habitations of men, and each man will spend the rest of  eternity in one or the other.
> 
> The Protestant attack  on this dogma claims that those who go to Heaven are in no further need  of purgation, since (they say) Jesus finished work on the Cross paid  the full debt and there is nothing more left for us to do to attain  salvation. While superficially this might sound like a holy thing to  say, its ramifications are wicked, since the process of salvation  involves much more that the believers merely  having some sort of trust  in the merits of Christ. If Jesus death on the cross did _everything_,  then there would be no need on our part to believe, to avoid sin, or to  do good. In fact, we could live as wretched a life as possible and  still go to Heaven.
> 
> *Youre Dead!*
> ...

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## Christian Liberty

> This reminds me of a teaching of one of the Fathers of the Church. There are three reasons why people are drawn to Christ and follow His commandments. The first is the fear of judgement and of hell.  That is the lowest and most base reason. The next is to enter Heaven.  The last, which is the greatest reason and the way of the Saints is out of pure love for God.


I'm not sure if EO is the same or not, but according to Catholic teaching, the first two reasons are both considered genuinely supernatural reasons for contrition, but nevertheless still imperfect contrition.  Repentance with these motivations can lead to forgiveness in the sacrament of penance.

Pure love for God as a motivation for repentance would constitute perfect contrition, and in such a state, a soul can be saved even without the sacrament of penance, though they are still obligated to go to confession as soon as possible.

I don't know if the Catholic Church distinguishes repentance for fear of Hell, and for fear of losing heaven, other than that both are imperfect.

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## TER

> I'm not sure if EO is the same or not, but according to Catholic teaching, the first two reasons are both considered genuinely supernatural reasons for contrition, but nevertheless still imperfect contrition.  Repentance with these motivations can lead to forgiveness in the sacrament of penance.
> 
> Pure love for God as a motivation for repentance would constitute perfect contrition, and in such a state, a soul can be saved even without the sacrament of penance, though they are still obligated to go to confession as soon as possible.
> 
> I don't know if the Catholic Church distinguishes repentance for fear of Hell, and for fear of losing heaven, other than that both are imperfect.


Hi CL, 

I would say that I agree with everything you have written above and believe it aligns perfectly with what the Orthodox Church teaches.

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## ClaytonB

> Catholics believe in purgatory, where you might do some time before getting into heaven.  
> 
> But is it possible to get booted out of heaven if you screw up there?  Despite having gone to Catholic schools through the 9th grade, I don't know the answer. 
> 
> I might have forgotten a few of the finer points, in the intervening decades.


All the promises of Scripture are eternal -- eternal life, eternal blessedness, eternal peace, and so on. Those promises can't be true if you can "screw it up". See John 10:28,29 and ask yourself: are you greater than the Father, in order to be able to snatch yourself from his hand?

Heaven itself is widely misunderstood because of our human tendency to visualize things (create representational forms which we can use to anchor them in our minds). Cherubs floating on clouds strumming harps is an easily recognizable trope denoting heaven to any Westerner. Heaven is not a place, as such. Heaven is a state-of-being in which time, place and all other material considerations cease to matter (cease to have any constraining effect) because the one who is in heaven is dwelling with God.

Perhaps a mundane metaphor will help explain the point. Imagine watching a tragic film in which all the good characters die. During the film, you are very sad and you keep feeling this terrible sense of dread and crushing grief. The movie is just horrid and makes you feel horrid. When the movie has ended and the credits begin to roll, you look around the room and you realize "Oh, I'm in the movie theater. What a terribly depressing movie that was, I felt like I was dying through the whole thing. Nevermind, I have some delicious dessert waiting at home and my beautiful dog Spot." The movie itself is completely over, its characters gone except for whatever traces they leave in your memory (hopefully, as little as possible) and you are not even slightly reluctant to see it go. Quite the opposite, you are positively joyful to return to the happiness of your real life.

This horrid movie is analogous to our situation in the fallen world. We are stuck in this terrible, depressing place in which death reigns and human misery -- whether our own or that of others -- is an omnipresent fact of existence. If we are being saved then, along the way, we must also be sanctified (washed, cleaned, renewed, made ready for heaven). When we are glorified (when the movie ends), we will stand up, look around, and realize it is all just a terrible memory that we will forget as quickly as possible because it has no redeeming value (see Psalm 73:20, Isaiah 65:17). It's just horrid in every possible sense of that word; repulsive, like an overflowing septic tank. So, when we refer to "heaven", we are not referring to the _continuation_ of this world (this movie, in the analogy), we are referring to the _discontinuation_ of this world, and entrance to the paradise our original parents left when they sinned (as restored/recreated by Jesus Christ, see Revelation 21:5). If you have eternal life, _you_ will not be annihilated. Instead, everything you once knew (whether you thought you loved it, or not) will be annihilated (see 2 Peter 3:12, Mark 13:31, 1 Corinthians 7:31, Revelation 21:1, et. al.)

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