# Start Here > Guest Forum >  Religious liberty

## zoe

What is the purpose to having a religious liberty bill that does not protect our religious freedom, it is Christian that are being discriminated against accord to the 1st amendment.

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## Deborah K

Religious freedom is already built into the Constitution.   The fact that it isn't being adhered to is what needs to be addressed.

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## donnay

> Religious freedom is already built into the Constitution.   The fact that it isn't being adhered to is what needs to be addressed.


Agreed.

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## jmdrake

If a Jewish deli was being asked to make ham sandwiches and refused nobody would complain that they were being unfair to pork farmers.

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## Deborah K

> If a Jewish deli was being asked to make ham sandwiches and refused nobody would complain that they were being unfair to pork farmers.


Well put, John.

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## euphemia

But it is not illegal to be a Christian or belong to any other faith in the US.  If Christians were more unified on their principles, the government would not be asked to step in and settle disputes.  

I'm not sure why homosexuals have been singled out for exclusion of service.  I've heard all the discussion about how it appears to celebrate something that the Bible calls an abomination, but I also know that we are called to engage our culture and shed light where there is darkness.

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## Deborah K

> But it is not illegal to be a Christian or belong to any other faith in the US.  If Christians were more unified on their principles, the government would not be asked to step in and settle disputes.  
> 
> I'm not sure why homosexuals have been singled out for exclusion of service.  I've heard all the discussion about how it appears to celebrate something that the Bible calls an abomination, but I also know that we are called to engage our culture and shed light where there is darkness.


But it is illegal to be a Christian when you are ordered by a Judge to provide a service to a people who identify in a way that goes against your religious beliefs, i.e. the cake bakers in Arizona, etc..  And now a pizzeria has had to close their doors due to death threats because they were baited and asked if they would cater a gay wedding.

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## Ronin Truth

Hey, another cool oxymoron thread title for my collection.

Thanks!

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## euphemia

> But it is illegal to be a Christian when you are ordered by a Judge to provide a service to a people who identify in a way that goes against your religious beliefs, i.e. the cake bakers in Arizona, etc..  And now a pizzeria has had to close their doors due to death threats because they were baited and asked if they would cater a gay wedding.


It is not illegal to be a Christian.  What is at issue here is whether a business owner can refuse a good or service to someone based on an application of a religious teaching.  In my opinion, the force of government should not be brought to bear over a cake or pizza.  But it is still not illegal to be a Christian.

There are places in the world where Christians are victims of extortion, their churches are destroyed, or they are killed outright.

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## Voluntarist

xxxxx

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## Deborah K

> It is not illegal to be a Christian.  What is at issue here is whether a business owner can refuse a good or service to someone based on an application of a religious teaching.  In my opinion, the force of government should not be brought to bear over a cake or pizza.  But it is still not illegal to be a Christian.
> 
> There are places in the world where Christians are victims of extortion, their churches are destroyed, or they are killed outright.


We'll have to disagree.  It is true that Christians are persecuted much much worse in other countries, but when a state government forces the owners of a bakery to cater to a certain group of people that they otherwise wouldn't, based on their religious beliefs, then the gov't views their religious practices and thus their religious beliefs as illegal, in my mind.

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## Deborah K

> But if the Jewish deli sold locs and bagels to all men, except those who had not been circumsized - then there would be MANY people complaining that the deli was being unfair to uncircumsized men (with the prejudice being based upon the particular deli owner's interpretation of his/her religious belief). 
> 
> But I suspect that you won't find many Jewish deli's doing so, even in Indiana ... after all, a sale is a sale (yeah, it's a stereotype - but I'm allowed to make light of it, a quarter of my lineage is Jewish ... in a sense I'm poking fun at myself).


That is a non-sequitur.  There would be no way to prove who is and who isn't circumcised.

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## lilymc

> I've heard all the discussion about how it appears to celebrate something that the Bible calls an abomination, but I also know that we are called to engage our culture and shed light where there is darkness.


A person can shed light where there is darkness in a different way -  without doing something that goes against one's religion and conscience.

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## Ronin Truth

> That is a non-sequitur. There would be no way to prove who is and who isn't circumcised.


Well, I can think of at least a few ways.

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## euphemia

> A person can shed light where there is darkness in a different way -  without doing something that goes against one's religion and conscience.


Bible pronouncements on what people do in private are much different than what the Christian is called to do.  "If you give so much as a cup of water in my name....."

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## Deborah K

> Well, I can think of at least a few ways.


Enlighten us.

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## Voluntarist

xxxxx

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## Voluntarist

xxxxx

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## thoughtomator

> Sure there is ... by observation  
> 
> Beyond that, though, it's just like many of the gay situations. There's no way of knowing *unless the gay or uncircumsized proclaim it*. And there's no way of knowing who the owner won't serve or sell to unless the owner proclaims it.


And now we get to the point where we confront the fact that way way way too many of them won't shut up about it no matter how inappropriate the context.

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## Voluntarist

xxxxx

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## Deborah K

> Sure there is ... by observation  
> 
> Beyond that, though, it's just like many of the gay situations. There's no way of knowing unless the gay or uncircumsized proclaim it. And there's no way of knowing who the owner won't serve or sell to unless the owner proclaims it.


Observation, yeah.     But I disagree with your premise because in the first place,  it is highly unlikely that anyone would stay in business (aside from the legality of it) if the male patronage was required to drop trou in order to get a sandwich.  LOL  but I digress.

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## lilymc

> Bible pronouncements on what people do in private are much different than what the Christian is called to do.  "If you give so much as a cup of water in my name....."


I'm not disagreeing that we should reach out and engage others.  I'm saying that can be done without going against one's convictions and conscience.

For example, there are missionaries who reach out to people on the streets... prostitutes, drug addicts, homeless, etc, in ways that do not endorse  anything that goes against God's will.   There are many different ways to show God's love while at the same time standing for the truth.   You seem to think that those things are mutually exclusive.

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## Ronin Truth

> Observation, yeah.  But I disagree with your premise because in the first place, it is highly unlikely that anyone would stay in business (aside from the legality of it) if the male patronage was required to drop trou in order to get a sandwich. LOL but I digress.


Life like surrogates are available in most adult toy stores.  Maybe a justified purchase for those uncircumcised males, if the sandwiches are really really good.

Also, maybe they could get their girl friends to buy their sandwiches for them.

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## pcosmar

> But it is illegal to be a Christian when you are ordered by a Judge to provide a service to a people who identify in a way that goes against your religious beliefs, i.e. the cake bakers in Arizona, etc..  And now a pizzeria has had to close their doors due to death threats because they were baited and asked if they would cater a gay wedding.


The cake Baker was a deliberately set up,,politically motivated,,situation that had nothing to do with "Religious Beliefs".

This was proven to the court and that is why they lost.. (Dog Wedding)
As long as "Christians",, keep running to the State for "protection" they will lose. And this $#@! will come back to bite them on the butt.

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## euphemia

> I'm not disagreeing that we should reach out and engage others.  I'm saying that can be done without going against one's convictions and conscience.
> 
> For example, there are missionaries who reach out to people on the streets... prostitutes, drug addicts, homeless, etc, in ways that do not endorse  anything that goes against God's will.   There are many different ways to show God's love while at the same time standing for the truth.   You seem to think that those things are mutually exclusive.


No, I just don't see where the Bible says we are endorsing anything by owning a business that sells a good or service and providing the highest quality product to customers.  The Bible says that whatever we do in word or deed, to do all in the name of the Lord.  

If people have an objection to something, they have a choice not to take the appointment.  "I'm sorry, we are not available on the 25th for your event."  There is always a risk in doing business.  I'm sure cakes and pizzas have been made for a lot of events where sin takes place.  I can't imagine delivering pizzas to a frat party, for example.

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## otherone

I'm a bit rusty....
Where is it written that a Christian can't bake a cake for a homosexual?
Before or after the part about loving your neighbor?

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