# News & Current Events > World News & Affairs >  Help Me Learn About Somalia!

## djdellisanti4

Any news, articles, blogs, videos, documentaries, etc. would be great. 

I'm really interested in learning the true conditions over there.

I remember seeing some posts on this site about how Somalia isn't as bad as people say it is but I forgot where they were.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

----------


## YumYum

Instead of Somalia, you might be better off relocating to New Hampshire.

----------


## oyarde

Average yearly income around $ 600.Electricity is provided by generator by each private business.These are purchased from Dubai.Exports are mainly fish, bannanas.Climate is arid to semi arid, average temperatures are very high.Most of GDP is agriculture and meat despite the arid climate.Nobody is really in control, lots of thieves and terrorists.Not sure I would be buying into anyone saying it is not that bad.The entire coast is no longer a safe shipping lane.

----------


## malkusm

Here you go: http://mises.org/daily/2701

----------


## TexanRudeBoy

This will help you understand why some of these pirates do what they do. Desperate people are known to render desperate deeds. 

http://www.projectcensored.org/top-s...omali-pirates/

FTA:

The international community has come out in force to condemn and declare war on the Somali fishermen pirates, while discreetly protecting the illegal, unreported and unregulated (IUU) fleets from around the world that have been poaching and dumping toxic waste in Somali waters since the fall of the Somali government eighteen years ago.

----------


## djdellisanti4

> Instead of Somalia, you might be better off relocating to New Hampshire.


Oh trust me I'm not planning on moving.

Thanks everyone for the info

----------


## oyarde

Is the islamic terror organization.If you are wanting to know if it safe for you to travel there, the answer is no.

----------


## oyarde

In the ancient kingdom of Punt, they were an important trade center.Frankicense , myhr amongst those things.In the North there are cave paintings from around 9000 BC.At Laas Geel , in the North some of the earliest known rock art in Africa can be found.There is a written language there as well that has not been deciphered.They also traded spices to the Greeks and Romans that they obtained from traders coming from India.

----------


## oyarde

> Any news, articles, blogs, videos, documentaries, etc. would be great. 
> 
> I'm really interested in learning the true conditions over there.
> 
> I remember seeing some posts on this site about how Somalia isn't as bad as people say it is but I forgot where they were.
> 
> Any help would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks


If there is anything specific you would like to know , I may be able to help.Sadly , though ,Like many things in that part of the world, the most interesting part is ancient history.

----------


## djdellisanti4

> If there is anything specific you would like to know , I may be able to help.Sadly , though ,Like many things in that part of the world, the most interesting part is ancient history.


I mainly wanted to know if the conditions of the people had improved since the fall of their govt, which is talked about in the article from Mises.

But history is good to know too, since it can provide an understanding of their society and culture.

----------


## oyarde

> I mainly wanted to know if the conditions of the people had improved since the fall of their govt, which is talked about in the article from Mises.
> 
> But history is good to know too, since it can provide an understanding of their society and culture.


They have an Air Force of six fighter aircraft, 500 Marines and an Army of 10,000.In a country where the real population is probably 13 million.The Islamist terrorists along with the clans and gangs will eventually control whatever they wish to would be ny best guess.

----------


## jmdrake

> Any news, articles, blogs, videos, documentaries, etc. would be great. 
> 
> I'm really interested in learning the true conditions over there.
> 
> I remember seeing some posts on this site about how Somalia isn't as bad as people say it is but I forgot where they were.
> 
> Any help would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks


There was a good thread that covered this recently.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=250384

Cliff notes:

* Somalia isn't nearly as bad as they say.
* Somalia has an ancient legal code that's based on libertarian principles.
* The whole "terrorist" problem wouldn't exist if the U.S. didn't bribe the Ethiopians to invade and try to impose a central government.
* If you really want a government there is "Somaliland".  It's an independent democracy inside Somalia with a complete stable functioning government that's at peace, but they don't have U.N. recognition and are ignored by most of the world.

----------


## oyarde

The terrorists are there, they control most of the Southern and Central part of the country.They control some sections of the capital.I do not see Al Shabaab doing anything except expanding if they wish.Some of these people are not Somali.These are radical Wahabi's and will not go away regardless of conditions.They number close to the same as the Somali Army.

----------


## oyarde

That Shabaab means youth.

----------


## oyarde

Does have an ancient legal code , but there are also places where Sharia law is practiced.The North is probably the more peaceful and stable part , but very arid with afternoon highs around 100 degrees during the four months of summer.Maybe four inches of rain per year.Still do not think I would let anyone convince me it is not too bad.

----------


## djdellisanti4

I imagine there are terrorists groups, but which ones existed (or were strong) before the US/UN got involved?

To me it sounds like we (US/UN) propped up these terrorists and we (US/UN) also drove a lot of people into piracy.

----------


## oyarde

Geographically it is located in a place that is ideal for these activites with all the right ingredients.The Northern and Southern areas have always been clanish.The civil war in Somalia and prior interference from Ethiopia were catalysts in this.I would give the UN credit for nothing.That would make the mistake that they have the ability to influence. The UN did not show up in 1992 until over 300,000 had died from starvation. The clans and terrorists ignored them and did as they pleased.The UN was under orders not to intervene unless fired on.

----------


## oyarde

Of the piracy could be linked to illegally overfished and polluted waters from other countries, but most of these people , even if they were prior fishermen are linked to islamic terror.

----------


## oyarde

The UN is a Giant waste of money and resources.

----------


## oyarde

> Geographically it is located in a place that is ideal for these activites with all the right ingredients.The Northern and Southern areas have always been clanish.The civil war in Somalia and prior interference from Ethiopia were catalysts in this.I would give the UN credit for nothing.That would make the mistake that they have the ability to influence. The UN did not show up in 1992 until over 300,000 had died from starvation. The clans and terrorists ignored them and did as they pleased.The UN was under orders not to intervene unless fired on.


Basically , the Central part of the country was being deprived of food and water.This was done by the North and South clans backed and armed by Ethiopia.This was probably slightly more than a year before the UN got there.

----------


## oyarde

There was no working government and resistance groups encouraged by Ethiopia were active everywhere.Civil war probably really had started by 1990.

----------


## pcosmar

Terrorist, Terrorist, Terrorist, Terrorist,Terrorist.
I thought of quoting and listing the quotes in this thread.

not gonna do it.

you really buy into that bull$#@!, don't ya?

----------


## oyarde

Somalia had Italian and British influence before the war.After the war the British had it until 1960.By 1978 , the Russians and Fidel were helping Ethiopia push back a Somalia advance into territory that had belonged to Somalia before the second world war , but had been deeded by treaty to Ethiopia by the British about 1948.

----------


## oyarde

There are rumors that this country to the North is supporting groups to the South.There are also insurgents operating in the country of unknown origins.

----------


## oyarde

> I mainly wanted to know if the conditions of the people had improved since the fall of their govt, which is talked about in the article from Mises.
> 
> But history is good to know too, since it can provide an understanding of their society and culture.


Are the conditions better than 1978 - 1996 ? Maybe.Highly Likely though, looking at all the facts that it could rapidly decline.Is it safe ? No.

----------


## oyarde

I tried to simply summarize the last 80 years.I have not left out anything I can think of.

----------


## pcosmar

> I tried to simply summarize the last 80 years.I have not left out anything I can think of.


Some.
CIA involvement.

Always a winner.

----------


## oyarde

I take it you are leading into the CIA being involved with Ethiopia ?

----------


## pcosmar

> I take it you are leading into the CIA being involved with Ethiopia ?


No,,,but now that you mention it.
I was referring to CIA involvement in Somalia.
This,,,among others,
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/08/wo...a/08intel.html

I would also point out that they seriously $#@! up everything they touch.

----------


## ibaghdadi

*oyarde*, I'd recommend you do all your research and then write one comprehensive post, rather than write 20 one-para replies (including one reply to yourself). A single well-researched post makes it look like, ya know, you actually know what you're talking about. Rather than just finding random facts online.

*djdellisanti4*, just do a search in the forums with the word "Somalia" in the title. For starters, you could try these threads:

Article by Michael Scheuer and comments/discussion:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=253232

Thread is titled "Estonia" but it quickly veers into Somalia (before going back to Estonia), lots of info here, highly recommended thread:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=256141

Thread about terrorism and recent developments:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=255468

I've done a lot of research on this topic over the past decade, PM me if you need anything.

----------


## oyarde

Yes , there are known members of Al Quada there.Yes , there is a history of "screw ups" from uninteded consequences.The operation in Somalia is classified and there is no way of knowing if what they were attempting had any significance.

----------


## kkassam

Two papers on your main question:

Somalia After State Collapse: Chaos or Improvement? | Benjamin Powell (2006)

http://www.independent.org/pdf/worki...64_somalia.pdf

Better Off Stateless: Somalia Before and After Government Collapse | Peter Leeson (2006)

www.peterleeson.com/Better_Off_Stateless.pdf 

Best book on the Somali stateless common law system:

The Law of the Somalis: A Stable Foundation for Economic 
Development in the Horn of Africa | Michael van Notten (2005)

Preface: http://explorersfoundation.org/archi...is-preface.pdf
Chapter 1: http://explorersfoundation.org/archi...omalis-ch1.pdf

Another great resource is Antiwar.com's Scott Horton's past radio interviews about Somalia.

----------


## pcosmar

> Yes , there are known members of Al Quada there.Yes , there is a history of "screw ups" from uninteded consequences.The operation in Somalia is classified and there is no way of knowing if what they were attempting had any significance.


Classified, phitt,,

Operations in Angola and Rhodesia were likely classified,,or more likely denied.
I was approached in 76 ,,an attempted recruiting. I declined.
However I did have a good friend in the Keys, He was in Angola with the Cuban Army. We nearly met under "different" circumstances.
Some interesting discussions,,and perspectives.

None the less, CIA involvement throughout the area has been ongoing long before the invention of the "terrorist threat".

----------


## oyarde

I have been very busy.Just trying to get some facts out there for the origial poster.I am not sure that I have any great real interest in the place myself.I am knowledgable about the place though.Just trying to be helpful.

----------


## djdellisanti4

> Are the conditions better than 1978 - 1996 ? Maybe.Highly Likely though, looking at all the facts that it could rapidly decline.Is it safe ? No.


Well is any country in Africa safe? Even the ones with strong central governments? Look at what happaned with South Africa and apartheid.

Its all about relativity and trends.

----------


## ibaghdadi

> Well is any country in Africa safe? Even the ones with strong central governments? Look at what happaned with South Africa and apartheid.


Except for foreign intervention (esp. Ethipian-backed), Somalia has been relatively safe.

What helps is a homogeneous social structure. They may be clan based but they recognize that they are one nation, so unlike other places in Africa there hasn't been racial tension, ethnic cleansing, massacres, etc.

To get a feel for their sense of nationalism, read the article on "Greater Somalia" on Wikipedia.

A good friend of my fathers had been a doctor here (Dubai) for the past 30 years, and when it came to the legal retirement age (60 years) everyone was shocked that he decided to go back home to Somalia to open a private practice. What was shocking was that he had a green card and all of his adult children are settled in the US.

He explained that he's far more likely to be prosperous in Somalia since doctors are scarce and the market is free and unregulated. He also said it's peaceful where he's from so he's not really afraid for his safety. Can people there afford his services? He says that Somali seafaring traders are doing quite well.

But then again this was several years ago, before the recent turn of events...

----------


## oyarde

> I have been very busy.Just trying to get some facts out there for the origial poster.I am not sure that I have any great real interest in the place myself.I am knowledgable about the place though.Just trying to be helpful.


I guess what I meant by no great real interest in the place is that I have few places remaining on my " to see" list and Somalia is not one of them.I would like to see a couple of places in Ethiopia and a place in Camaroon.Thats probably about it for that continent for me.

----------


## djdellisanti4

We'll I think I'm going to write a little book report based on the info i've learned from this thread.

----------


## oyarde

Well there is definately enough info for maybe even a big report.If you are a student , Good Luck to you ! If you put all of this together you deserve an A.

----------


## djdellisanti4

Oh, im just doing the "book report" to inform, not for school...yet. I might take some sort of econ class on developing countries in a few years.

----------


## Austrian Econ Disciple

> I have been very busy.Just trying to get some facts out there for the origial poster.I am not sure that I have any great real interest in the place myself.I am knowledgable about the place though.Just trying to be helpful.


Are you knowledgable enough to know that Somalia, in general is vastly better off under the current system than their State system? Almost all categories depicting standard of living have risen, and risen dramatically since the State collapsed. In fact, I would like to see Somali sailors seastead and have property rights on the ocean. They are heading that way. They even have a stock market for their sailors "pirates" there. It is no different than say, me going out to Wyoming in 1780 homesteading a property, and having cattle drivers run their cattle through my property because it is "public property" and me defending my property and myself and being called a criminal, or thief if I expropriate some of their cattle to recoup expense. 

I would like to see these property owners issue edicts to all vessels that they must pay to travel through the waters. Of course, you would call that "tribute", etc. but it is no different than paying for a sticker for your car to drive on private turnpikes, or paying for a toll on a private road. 

Southern Somalia though isn't doing as well as Northern Somalia because they don't have the basis for a legal system that actually works --- a libertarian one like the Xeer, that the North has (Somaliland). In fact, I was watching a video the other day where farmers in the North said their property and areas have become much more secure since private security has been instituted (REAL private Free Market PDAs). 

Did you know all of that?

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Are you knowledgable enough to know that Somalia, in general is vastly better off under the current system than their State system? Almost all categories depicting standard of living have risen, and risen dramatically since the State collapsed. In fact, I would like to see Somali sailors seastead and have property rights on the ocean. They are heading that way. They even have a stock market for their sailors "pirates" there. It is no different than say, me going out to Wyoming in 1780 homesteading a property, and having cattle drivers run their cattle through my property because it is "public property" and me defending my property and myself and being called a criminal, or thief if I expropriate some of their cattle to recoup expense. 
> 
> I would like to see these property owners issue edicts to all vessels that they must pay to travel through the waters. Of course, you would call that "tribute", etc. but it is no different than paying for a sticker for your car to drive on private turnpikes, or paying for a toll on a private road. 
> 
> Southern Somalia though isn't doing as well as Northern Somalia because they don't have the basis for a legal system that actually works --- a libertarian one like the Xeer, that the North has (Somaliland). In fact, *I was watching a video the other day where farmers in the North said their property and areas have become much more secure since private security has been instituted (REAL private Free Market PDAs).* 
> 
> Did you know all of that?


If you could PM me that vid, I'd greatly appreciate it, sir.  Thanks.

----------


## kkassam

> If you could PM me that vid, I'd greatly appreciate it, sir.  Thanks.


Post it here, sounds interesting and on topic.

----------


## Austrian Econ Disciple

Damnit I can't find it. I distinctly recall though the interviewer was interviewing a Somali farmer and he was chastising international media for calling Somali security (private agencies), warlords and pirates, and compared them to the tradition of militia in Switzerland and America. He also said that he is much safer now than before under the old State regime. I would recommend to look for it also...I think it was on youtube, or some other site, but for the life of me cannot find it again. I will continue looking though.


PS: There was also a woman on there talking about how she invested in a "Pirate" company by giving them a RPG. Yielded her like a 4000% return or something lmao. Man I really wish I could find it.

----------


## ibaghdadi

> Damnit I can't find it.


I don't know how many times I checked into the thread to see if you managed to find it. Sounds like a very interesting video - did you see it on Youtube? Dailymotion? Or on TV?

The issue really is that even those who happen to accept the facts about Somalia seem to paint it as an interesting anomaly rather than a workable model or a proof of theory...

----------


## M House

Seriously Somalia is a $#@!hole. I talked to someone who went there. Do you honestly think it's a good place to vacation? The guy nearly died of a mortar.

----------


## oyarde

> Seriously Somalia is a $#@!hole. I talked to someone who went there. Do you honestly think it's a good place to vacation? The guy nearly died of a mortar.


Just out of curiosity , why was he there ? business ?

----------


## M House

I forget the explanation he was part of our military and this was after the black-hawk down fiasco. As usual when $#@! hits the fan, we still leave people in these places. He's now somewhat disabled but was wearing some body armor.

----------


## oyarde

> Seriously Somalia is a $#@!hole. I talked to someone who went there. Do you honestly think it's a good place to vacation? The guy nearly died of a mortar.


I am probably in agreement with you , I do not think anyone plans to vacation there.I do think people are curious about the place .If you hang around here for awhile ,somebody may be able to convince you it is a "paradise"  : )

----------


## oyarde

> I forget the explanation he was part of our military and this was after the black-hawk down fiasco. As usual when $#@! hits the fan, we still leave people in these places. He's now somewhat disabled but was wearing some body armor.


Glad that he had his Armor on.

----------


## oyarde

The kill radius of a mortar round is much greater than what you would see in a typical hollywood movie.

----------


## oyarde

You can get more than 23,000 somali shillings per US dollar.

----------


## oyarde

So , I think 37,700 shillings would be about a days wages.

----------


## oyarde

They import 60 % of the food consumed. Mostly flour and rice.What I canot figure out is how much a kilogram of rice or flour cost. If it is more than 23,000 shillings , they are probably still having starvation problems in the urban areas.

----------


## ibaghdadi

> They import 60 % of the food consumed. Mostly flour and rice.What I canot figure out is how much a kilogram of rice or flour cost. If it is more than 23,000 shillings , they are probably still having starvation problems in the urban areas.


As far as I know they don't use their currency (they're stateless now and not even a central bank exists to print it). They use foreign currency: dollars, etc.

Soon enough I guess they'll figure out they can use gold and all will be well for them.

----------


## kkassam

Copied from the other thread, some more information about money in Somalia:




> Unlike a competitive banking system with distinct currencies in which competition could limit the amount of inflation and seigniorage individual issuers could achieve, the competition in Somalia is for seigniorage in the same currency. One would expect this competition to lead to an infinite level of inflation and ultimately public abandonment of the currency. Somalis, however, refuse to accept denominations larger than those that existed in 1991. This has constrained inflation and actually allowed for a relatively stable monetary system to emerge. 
> 
> Mubarak (2003) estimates that it costs $0.03 to print and import new bank notes 
> to Somalia. When the first Balweyn notes were printed in 1997, the largest denomination SoSh (1000) traded for about $0.12. By late 2001 competition for seigniorage had driven the SoSh 1,000 note down to about $0.04. At this exchange rate printing SoSh 500 notes was no longer profitable, and the SoSh 1,000 notes were down to nearly their commodity cost, making further printing of them no more profitable than other investments. After the initial bout of inflation, Mubarak reports that “there is no sign of significant inflation let alone an infinite one,” and that “Since July 2001... consumer prices have stabilised. If the market exchange rate movements are an indication of price stability... the Somali shilling has appreciated slightly since the importation of new reprints slowed” (2003: 323). Though very different than the currencies advocated by those who advocate 100 percent commodity backed currencies, the effect of the competition for seigniorage coupled with the Somalis’ failure to accept new, higher denominations has led to the creation of a stable ‘commodity currency’ worth its paper, ink, and transport costs.


It's actually a strange sort of commodity money, with paper and ink being the commodity. More details: 

Somalia after state collapse: Chaos or improvement?
Benjamin Powell, Ryan Ford and Alex Nowrasteh
Journal of Economic Behavior & Organization, 2008, vol. 67, issue 3-4, pages 657-670

http://www.independent.org/pdf/worki...64_somalia.pdf [fixed]

----------


## oyarde

> As far as I know they don't use their currency (they're stateless now and not even a central bank exists to print it). They use foreign currency: dollars, etc.
> 
> Soon enough I guess they'll figure out they can use gold and all will be well for them.


I think they are using dollars.

----------


## kkassam

I've heard/read that USD is the most popular currency, followed by Euros. Somali shillings are only used for very small transactions. If you guys are interested you should look into their stateless Hawala banking system.

BTW, I posted a broken link to the Ben Powell paper above, this should work: http://www.independent.org/pdf/worki...64_somalia.pdf

----------


## oyarde

> I've heard/read that USD is the most popular currency, followed by Euros. Somali shillings are only used for very small transactions. If you guys are interested you should look into their stateless Hawala banking system.
> 
> BTW, I posted a broken link to the Ben Powell paper above, this should work: http://www.independent.org/pdf/worki...64_somalia.pdf


What I am curious about is the cost of food.

----------


## kkassam

> What I am curious about is the cost of food.


One hint from a recent AP story:




> "Food prices typically rise around the Muslim world during Ramadan, though unlike in Somalia it is often a supply and demand issue and not one of warfare. Mohamud Aden, who owns a butcher shop in Mogadishu, said he is selling a kilogram of meat for $3, up from $2 before Ramadan began.
> 
> "There are two reasons: The demand of meat is high during Ramadan and the second is that the traders who sell cows and camels have raised their prices," Aden said."

----------


## oyarde

> One hint from a recent AP story:


The meat is cheap.It is all raised there and they export alot.Rice , wheat flour and cereals are all imported.Two dollars is more than average earnings of one day.

----------


## oyarde

> The meat is cheap.It is all raised there and they export alot.Rice , wheat flour and cereals are all imported.Two dollars is more than average earnings of one day.


Well , I guess I should not say cheap.The 3 dollar Ramadan special for 2.2 pounds of meat is equivelent to two days pay.

----------


## oyarde

Check out the Somali youth sold to be soldiers thread.

----------


## oyarde

Monday , al - Shabaab storms hotel in Somali capital killing 32.

----------


## oyarde

Hotel Mona sounds like a place not to stay.

----------


## oyarde

9/08/10 . Fighting in the Somalia Capital . al- Shabab . 230 killed , 400 wounded ,23,000 displaced in the past two weeks . 200,000 displaced this year .

----------


## oyarde

9/16/10 Mortar fire and attacks today in Mogadishu . Death toll at 15 so far .

----------


## lucius

Just back from Namaje, Zambia...woo hoo!

What a paradise...

Not really...smelled like $#@! most-of-the time...

----------


## oyarde

UN planning on sending 2000 more , for total of 8,000 . Al - Shabab now owns the place .

----------


## lucius

Somalia: Ok, here is the very short class: it is all about the oil that is 1000km from the shore...

Infrastructure is the key, but hard to maintain.

Adverse conditions, civil unrest, fomented discord,

Exxon maybe the winner just like Angola...

----------


## oyarde

> Ok, here is the very short class: it is about the oil that is 1000km from the shore...
> 
> Infrastructure is the key, but hard to maintain.
> 
> Adverse conditions, civil unrest, fomented discord,
> 
> Exxon maybe the winner...


I will be impressed if there are any winners . 1000 klicks is 620 miles , anybody off shore there is just kidnap / ransom matl. . Likely the terror training camps will be going up soon getting ready for the new Somali export .

----------


## lucius

> I will be impressed if there are any winners . 1000 klicks is 620 miles , anybody off shore there is just kidnap / ransom matl. . Likely the terror training camps will be going up soon getting ready for the new Somali export .


Naw, 6-months could make it all happy valley...just have to be willing to break a few eggs...and go in force...

----------


## Pericles

> Are you knowledgable enough to know that Somalia, in general is vastly better off under the current system than their State system? Almost all categories depicting standard of living have risen, and risen dramatically since the State collapsed. In fact, I would like to see Somali sailors seastead and have property rights on the ocean. They are heading that way. They even have a stock market for their sailors "pirates" there. It is no different than say, me going out to Wyoming in 1780 homesteading a property, and having cattle drivers run their cattle through my property because it is "public property" and me defending my property and myself and being called a criminal, or thief if I expropriate some of their cattle to recoup expense. 
> 
> I would like to see these property owners issue edicts to all vessels that they must pay to travel through the waters. Of course, you would call that "tribute", etc. but it is no different than paying for a sticker for your car to drive on private turnpikes, or paying for a toll on a private road. 
> 
> Southern Somalia though isn't doing as well as Northern Somalia because they don't have the basis for a legal system that actually works --- a libertarian one like the Xeer, that the North has (Somaliland). In fact, I was watching a video the other day where farmers in the North said their property and areas have become much more secure since private security has been instituted (REAL private Free Market PDAs). 
> 
> Did you know all of that?


How much time have you spent in Somalia?

----------


## oyarde

There are terror camps in place now .

----------


## fedup100

It's a $#@! hole?

----------


## oyarde

> It's a $#@! hole?


Read the thread , you decide . As for me ? Yes .

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> There are terror camps in place now .


We have those too-except we call them military training centers.

----------


## oyarde

I am not sure that extremist groups who intentionally target civilians are comparable to national militaries.

----------


## Flash

Leftist snark blogger Matt Yglesias thinks Islamist Hell-hole Somalia good example of Libertarians' Paradise




> From Eric Dondero:
> 
> Well over 60% of Somalia is now controlled by the Radical Islamist, Al Qaeda-affiliated Al Shabab. The main enterprise of these Muslim extremists is piracy in the Gulf of Aden. On land, they pursue an ultra-extreme version of Islam, stripping women's rights, and enforcing strict curfews, and even bans on all forms of music. There is virtually nothing free entperprise or remotely libertarian about Muslim-controlled Somalia. 
> 
> But this hasn't stopped well-known Leftist blogger Matthew Iglesias from calling Somalia on the whole a Libertarian Paradise. 
> 
> In his Sept. 9th post, Iglesias compares economic growth statistics for communist Cuba versus Islamist-controlled Somalia. He defends Cuba's economy by snarkily noting that it's not nearly as bad as the no taxation "anarchy" of Somalia.
> 
> ThinkProgress.org:
> ...



http://www.libertarianrepublican.net...-yglesias.html


See map to understand the political situation of modern day Somalia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._districts.png

----------


## oyarde

Average citizens in Cuba and Somalia do not make enough to eat properly .

----------


## Flash

> Hotel Mona sounds like a place not to stay.


You realize that's in Mogadishu, right? Please look at the map I posted above.

----------


## oyarde

> You realize that's in Mogadishu, right? Please look at the map I posted above.


Yeah , I knew where it was , the attack that day was in the Capital. They ( al Shabab )are pretty well in control of the entire capital now except for a few blocks .

----------


## Flash

It looks like the Ethiopian government is sucessfully stopping the Al-Shabaab from spreading.

_"Intervention isn't the solution to terrorism it is the cause of terrorism."_ -- Pat Buchanan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shabaab

----------


## oyarde

> It looks like the Ethiopian government is sucessfully stopping the Al-Shabaab from spreading.
> 
> _"Intervention isn't the solution to terrorism it is the cause of terrorism."_ -- Pat Buchanan
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shabaab


Look at the one on the right , stretch it further North and that is getting closer .

----------


## oyarde

> We have those too-except we call them military training centers.


They are paying the kids fifty bucks a month .

----------


## oyarde

> Look at the one on the right , stretch it further North and that is getting closer .


The North is somewhat undesirable due  to the fact it is so arid . They will have it too if they want it .

----------


## oyarde

> The North is somewhat undesirable due  to the fact it is so arid . They will have it too if they want it .


////

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> They are paying the kids fifty bucks a month .


 Does the amount of pay make a significant difference in the end result?

----------


## oyarde

I guess the end result there would be the same regardless ?

----------


## jmdrake

> Seriously Somalia is a $#@!hole. I talked to someone who went there. Do you honestly think it's a good place to vacation? The guy nearly died of a mortar.





> Just out of curiosity , why was he there ? business ?





> I forget the explanation he was part of our military and this was after the black-hawk down fiasco. As usual when $#@! hits the fan, we still leave people in these places. He's now somewhat disabled but was wearing some body armor.


Just an observation.  If you're in a country where people recently had a bad experience with the U.S. military, you might not want to walk around looking like a member of the U.S. military.

----------


## oyarde

More bad news I got Friday for the Somalia populance . Drought is killing off the cattle . Basically without the cattle and milk , the famine will go from bad to completely dire . Only reliable food source gone.

----------


## oyarde

> Just an observation.  If you're in a country where people recently had a bad experience with the U.S. military, you might not want to walk around looking like a member of the U.S. military.


It is not safe for anyone , whatever appearance ....

----------


## Krugerrand

Recent bump to old thread ... I thought maybe I had missed a chipin and the chap was reporting back to share his first hand story of what he learned on his trip.

----------


## HOLLYWOOD

The US government bombed Somalis a few of days ago... KILLING DOZENS

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/187978.html




> US drone strikes kill dozens in Somalia
> Thu Jul 7, 2011 8:49AM
> 
> 
> *American Predator drone firing two Hellfire missiles* (file photo)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-114_Hellfire
> 
> Dozens  of al-Shabab fighter have reportedly been killed after the US military  used remote-controlled unmanned aerial vehicles to target their bases in  southern Somalia. 
> 
> ...

----------


## oyarde

> The US government bombed Somalis a few of days ago... KILLING DOZENS
> 
> http://www.presstv.ir/detail/187978.html


Yes , that is why I dug this thread back up to the top.

----------


## farrar

> I am probably in agreement with you , I do not think anyone plans to vacation there.I do think people are curious about the place .If you hang around here for awhile ,somebody may be able to convince you it is a "paradise"  : )


Yeah, anyone who thinks somalia is a paradise is pretty nuts... 

Whats so fascinating about somalia isn't that people think it is a paradise, but that trends in mortality, economic well being, access to basic needs, access to wants, are all experiencing positive outcomes as opposed to the negative effects during its tenure in government. Its not that somalia is better than the U.S, but that stateless somalia is significantly better than the somalia under the state. Its not that somalia is better than Europe, but that stateless somalia is beginning and continuing to surpassing its neighboring governments in many areas. It is that stateless somalia is experiencing positive trends in all socio-economic facets of its stateless society that makes it so "great" to libertarians tickled by the idea that all these trends are likely the result of the Xeer in somalia. The Xeer is a system of law embedded in somali culture that is very considerate of property rights and closely related to something you would read out of a book written by an anarco-capitalist.

Because law exists despite the absence of the state, and prosperity is increasing despite the absence of the state, it proves a source of optimism for many anarchists and libertarians who can't help but think "what if the UN stopped mucking around?, what will it be in 10 more years, 20?" 

Yesterday somalia was $#@! in the corner of a cage. Today it is a $#@! whole. Tomorrow, it may just be a $#@! covered latrine. But it shows promise for the future, and gives us ideas for tomorrow. Thats what makes it so interesting, you'd almost swear I was trying to tell you its a paradise... But really I'm not, just read the second sentence of this paragraph.

Thats just my 2 cent

----------


## oyarde

I imagine , by now that refugee camp across the Somalia border is probably the largest in the world.....

----------


## Working Poor

A response I get about Ron Paul sometimes is "if you want to be a libertarian go to Somalia"

----------


## oyarde

> A response I get about Ron Paul sometimes is "if you want to be a libertarian go to Somalia"


They have not been there . I encourage them to look at the refugee camp though . Educate themselves a bit .

----------


## oyarde

Nor have they probably been anywhere that is run by militant groups and people drop dead routinely from starvation .

----------


## Hugo

Some would say Somalia is a good example of libertarianism. The problem in Somalia is not that it doesn't have a goverments, the problem is it has SEVERAL goverments.

----------


## oyarde

> Some would say Somalia is a good example of libertarianism. The problem in Somalia is not that it doesn't have a goverments, the problem is it has SEVERAL goverments.


Yes , with al shabbab nutjobs the primary govt and the warlords the secondary govts

----------


## Deborah K

> Some would say Somalia is a good example of libertarianism. The problem in Somalia is not that it doesn't have a goverments, the problem is it has SEVERAL goverments.


I've noticed lately, that the words 'libertarianism' and 'anarchy' are becoming interchangeable.....

----------


## Deborah K

> As far as I know they don't use their currency (they're stateless now and not even a central bank exists to print it). They use foreign currency: dollars, etc.
> 
> Soon enough I guess they'll figure out they can use gold and all will be well for them.


Really?

----------


## oyarde

Soon enough they will be dropping dead from starvation , only then will the evil warlords allow the aid agencies back in , then that aid will all end up with al shabab and the warlords and the others will continue to drop dead .... pointless excercises in futility . Who is the CIA torturing ? those that look well feed ?

----------


## netnut

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...rica-land-grab

http://geology.about.com/od/conflict...s/a/coltan.htm

----------


## Vessol

> I've noticed lately, that the words 'libertarianism' and 'anarchy' are becoming interchangeable.....


Please stop trying to flamebait. This is a discussion about Somalia and you are trying to take it off-topic and start a debate about the definition of libertarianism.

----------


## pcosmar

> I've noticed lately, that the words 'libertarianism' and 'anarchy' are becoming interchangeable.....


Only by some. Usually those with an understanding of neither.

----------


## Deborah K

> Please stop trying to flamebait. This is a discussion about Somalia and you are trying to take it off-topic and start a debate about the definition of libertarianism.


Get over yourself.    That post is 11 days old and was in response to someone doing exactly what I was making an observation of.

----------


## oyarde

Al shababb is now banning the popular local pastry that is a small triangle shaped pastry filled with some bits of meat. Those are some real humanitarian guys , banning food while people are starving.

----------


## oyarde

Drought and starvation conditions continue to worsen.

----------

