# Liberty Movement > Grassroots Central >  STOP Demonizing Teachers and Cops.

## bossman068410

[rph -edit, I have just gone through the thread with a chainsaw and did my best to clean out the offtopic, low value, insulting posts. My apologies if I cut too deeply in places]


STOP Demonizing Teachers and Cops.

Let's go on the Ron Paul Blow back principal.

When at the Campaign for Liberty I brought a very smart history teacher with me.  I have opened her eyes to the bull$#@! between the whole REP & DEM Hypocrisy thing and she came with an open mind.  After several of the speakers trashed teachers then at the lunch a few of the members trashing teachers she closed her mind and had a bitter Taste about the whole thing.  Next time when you are speaking in public or to others think about how you turned away a potential supporter.

We need to focus ON THE SYSTEM not the INDIVIDUALS !!!!!!
It is the system that keeps and maintains the Rotten Apples.
It is the system that is Dumbing down our kids.
If the system was changed SO would the teaching.

THERE ARE A LOT of GOOD teachers and cops WE NEED their support to fight TYRANNY.

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## Truth Warrior

> STOP Demonizing Teachers and Cops.
> 
> Let's go on the Ron Paul Blow back principal.
> 
> When at the Campaign for Liberty I brought a very smart history teacher with me. I have opened her eyes to the bull$#@! between the whole REP & DEM Hypocrisy thing and she came with an open mind. After several of the speakers trashed teachers then at the lunch a few of the members trashing teachers she closed her mind and had a bitter Taste about the whole thing. Next time when you are speaking in public or to others think about how you turned away a potential supporter.
> 
> We need to focus ON THE SYSTEM not the INDIVIDUALS !!!!!!
> It is the system that keeps and maintains the Rotten Apples.
> It is the system that is Dumbing down our kids.
> ...


 *The cops and teachers are willingly working WITHIN the current "system". That makes them PART of the TYRANNY problem.<IMHO>*

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## bossman068410

> *The cops and teachers are willingly working WITHIN the current "system". That makes them PART of the problem.*


They too have been INDOCTRINATED.
How many cops and teachers are out there?
You can open their minds to the system they are in.
Don't you want people on the inside fighting the system?

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## AutoDas

Not if you're a saboteur.




> *The cops and teachers are willingly working WITHIN the current "system". That makes them PART of the TYRANNY problem.<IMHO>*

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## bossman068410

Did you know the Teachers HERE are Required to uphold the constitution to get their licence?

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## Truth Warrior

> Not if you're a saboteur.


 *Yep, there's TONS of those.*

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## pcosmar

> They too have been INDOCTRINATED.
> How many cops and teachers are out there?
> You can open their minds to the system they are in.
> Don't you want people on the inside fighting the system?


Right. There just doing their jobs.

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## ChaosControl

I agree with the OP.
Really too many here are intent on making everyone their enemy. If everyone is your enemy, you'll have no friends and one hell of a big army to fight against alone.

There are plenty of excellent teachers and plenty of cops who really care about their community and helping keep it safe. If anything I'd say the bad ones are the minority and the system is the problem. It is like a lot of things where the few bad things are the only things talked about while the good stuff is ignored, bad news seems to sell better than good news.

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## Kludge

Eh, collectivism is alive and well here.

Teachers who follow absurd rules should be attacked, but how many really do? How many teachers would really call the authorities because Jon came to school with a few aspirin, less the three or four we trumpet on the news?

How many cops would really pull you over for having a Ron Paul bumper sticker??

They are street-level bureaucrats. They have orders. They can choose whether or not to follow those orders, depending on how/if they're being monitored.

Public schools get a bum rap here, too. Caveat emptor. No school is the same. They have different textbooks, standards, school boards, and teachers. There are multiple tools on the Internet to research a school, and if you don't research where your child will be educated for ~12 years, you are failing them.

I'm not saying that the NCLB Act and other federal mandates aren't hampering education, but it's really not as bad as it's often painted; that parents ought to be jailed for sending their kids to public school, and public high school graduates are unable to do basic math. It's absurd propaganda -- probably the same bull$#@! those parents will drill into their poor child's head if they home school (and I'm not saying that all home-schooling parents would do this). I have even read arguments here which suggest parents should indoctrinate their kids in the name of "liberty", justifying it because public schools supposedly indoctrinate kids to worship the State, which is complete bull$#@!.

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## Truth Warrior

> I agree with the OP.
> Really too many here are intent on making everyone their enemy. If everyone is your enemy, you'll have no friends and one hell of a big army to fight against alone.
> 
> There are plenty of excellent teachers and plenty of cops who really care about their community and helping keep it safe. If anything I'd say the bad ones are the minority and the system is the problem. It is like a lot of things where the few bad things are the only things talked about while the good stuff is ignored, bad news seems to sell better than good news.


*Deliberate Dumbing Down of America - E Book download is NOW FREE TO ALL!!!
Right click and "Save Link As"
Click here to begin download
File is 6.75 MB*

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## newbitech

> STOP Demonizing Teachers and Cops.
> 
> Let's go on the Ron Paul Blow back principal.
> 
> When at the Campaign for Liberty I brought a very smart history teacher with me.  I have opened her eyes to the bull$#@! between the whole REP & DEM Hypocrisy thing and she came with an open mind.  After several of the speakers trashed teachers then at the lunch a few of the members trashing teachers she closed her mind and had a bitter Taste about the whole thing.  Next time when you are speaking in public or to others think about how you turned away a potential supporter.
> 
> We need to focus ON THE SYSTEM not the INDIVIDUALS !!!!!!
> It is the system that keeps and maintains the Rotten Apples.
> It is the system that is Dumbing down our kids.
> ...


I don't like the way you are shaping your argument.  You need to give some specific example. 

How about stop attacking supporters who speak the truth that your friends can't swallow?

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## Truth Warrior

> I don't like the way you are shaping your argument. You need to give some specific example. 
> 
> How about stop attacking supporters who speak the truth that your friends can't swallow?


*The Martial Law Mind-Set by William Norman Grigg*

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## newbitech

> Did you know the Teachers HERE are Required to uphold the constitution to get their licence?



did you know that BHO was a constitutional law professor?  Regarding your teachers, you say they are required to uphold the constitution.  Required by whom?  If they are required to uphold the constitution by your state reps, well what is your states record in upholding constitutional principles?  

Republicans traditionally supported eliminating the Department of Education.  This is not an attack on teachers.  Republicans also traditionally support the second amendment and the law restricting the government from interfering with gun ownership. 

Standing up for free market education and standing up for gun ownership is not an attack on teachers and cops.  It is a defense of our inalienable right to seek knowledge, wisdom, and protection of the government's sometimes tyrannical authority that many find offensive.  Unfortunately for those educators and law enforcement folks who fall on the wrong side of this debate, they will become a visible target of the freedom movement simply because their views are inconsistent with constitutional principles.  

Each individual teacher and cop has choices to make.  The attack is not on those folks personally, and if they take it personally its because their status quo views of government and their role of authority and control has been upset.  This will be true regardless if someone holds them to the constitution and espcially true if the person who is requiring them to follow the constitution also does not hold the correct understanding or is completely ignorant of constitutional principles.

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## moostraks

> *Deliberate Dumbing Down of America - E Book download is NOW FREE TO ALL!!!
> Right click and "Save Link As"
> Click here to begin download
> File is 6.75 MB*


Hey THANKS!!! I had wanted to read this book...Looks like its published right around the corner from me.

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## acptulsa

Anyone here happy about the MIAC report?

Why would we profile people?  I thought we were all here because we understood that we're all different?

Oh, yeah, there are tons of saboteurs, says TW, and rolls his eyes.  How do we know there aren't?  Do you think the ones dumb enough to advertise what they're doing to short-circuit the 'official message' are still employed?

Most Missouri cops are conservatives.  Do we do better to demonize and so disaffect them and piss them off at us, or do we do better to tell them, hey, they're trying to get you to gig your own--don't listen to them?

All Bilderbergers and CFR members are the enemy?  That I might believe.  All cops and teachers are the enemy?  _All_ of them?  Yer nuts.

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## Justinjj1

I am a high school government teacher and a Ron Paul supporter.  Glad to know that Truth Warrior considers me part of the tyranny.

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## RevolutionSD

Teachers and cops are getting paid with stolen loot. If they realize this and continue with their occupation then they are a huge source of the problem.

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## acptulsa

> I am a high school government teacher and a Ron Paul supporter.  Glad to know that Truth Warrior considers me part of the tyranny.


Nice to have you here.  I would be grateful if, when you have the time, you'd start a thread detailing some of the pressures you face to stick to the 'official line'.  I think that would go a long way toward helping people here understand, one, how that works and, two, why we should be eternally grateful to those of you who work to buck it.

But _not_ if it would endanger your position!  Getting at least a few kids some proper education is more important that straightening this lot out, imo.

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## Kraig

> I agree with the OP.
> Really too many here are intent on making everyone their enemy. If everyone is your enemy, you'll have no friends and one hell of a big army to fight against alone.
> 
> There are plenty of excellent teachers and plenty of cops who really care about their community and helping keep it safe. If anything I'd say the bad ones are the minority and the system is the problem. It is like a lot of things where the few bad things are the only things talked about while the good stuff is ignored, bad news seems to sell better than good news.


I have absolutely nothing against teachers in general, nearly all of them that I talk to are completely frustrated with the school system anyways.  Cops on the other hand are complete $#@!s.  I have one friend who is a cop and he agrees with me that they are all $#@!s, he doesn't hang out with any of his co-workers because he cannot stand how they act.  He doesn't get offended because he agrees 100%.  From his own mouth they are elitist jerks and see themselves as above citizens, they will not hang out with people who aren't cops or aren't cop familys.  They are not the minority of cops, not in Texas.  Now setting aside their jerk attitude, not everyone here submits to all the bull$#@! rules like many of you seem to do.  Ron Paul calls it civil disobedience, and he finds this form of peaceful protest respectable as I do.  Because I choose to do this, cops choose to deprive me of my liberty and use violence against me.  For me ANY interaction with a cop could easily lead to the loss of my job once and if I make it through to the other end of the bull$#@! legal system.  I do not harm or even inconvience anyone, yet they choose to do this because they are following orders.  

So who is making who their enemy?  They don't have to avoid me or risk being thrown in jail, I do.

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## bossman068410

> I am a high school government teacher and a Ron Paul supporter.  Glad to know that Truth Warrior considers me part of the tyranny.


Warrior Do you want this soldier for the fight of freedom to go away?

It's the system NOT the Individual we need to focus on!!!!!!
NEOCONS are doing enough to trash individual teachers. 

YES there is intentional dumbing down of our students, but it is the system that advocates it NOT most of the individual teachers.

DO NOT CAST the first stone at teachers if you

EVER had a government job
EVER took a government back student loan
EVER use the post office
EVER went on unemployment
EVER used a public park
EVER bla bla bla........

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## Kludge

> I am a high school government teacher and a Ron Paul supporter.  Glad to know that Truth Warrior considers me part of the tyranny.


Woot. I intend to say that in four years

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## acptulsa

> I have one friend who is a cop and he agrees with me that they are all $#@!s, he doesn't hang out with any of his co-workers...




Never say never.  Also never say 'all' or 'always'.

Your friend agrees with you that he's an $#@!.  Why do I doubt this?  Could it be because instead of hanging around with his coworkers he hangs with you?

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## Kraig

> Never say never.  Also never say 'all' or 'always'.
> 
> Your friend agrees with you that he's an $#@!.  Why do I doubt this?  Could it be because instead of hanging around with his coworkers he hangs with you?


We hardly hang out anymore, old friends from highschool but we do keep in touch.  My $#@!ty use of language aside, as far as he knows all of his co-workers fit the pig description.  No of course not every single cop in Texas, I was just trying to say that the bad cops are NOT the minority, and their reputation precedes them.

I can forgive ignorance and apathy on a personal level up until the ignorant are using violence against me.  That is what cops do, that is their job.  I really don't think you comprehend what it is like to risk going to jail.

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## pcosmar

> Warrior Do you want this soldier for the fight of freedom to go away?
> 
> .


How can you identify the enemy if not by the uniform they wear?

How do I know that the enemy soldier is really a" nice guy" and concerned for my freedom?



> YES there is intentional dumbing down of our students, but it is the system that advocates it NOT most of the individual teachers.


_False_. Most are perpetuating lies. A FEW may be on our side. But they are very few.

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## BillyDkid

This issue is being confused.  Most teachers as far as I know are very fine individuals and are typical of the cross section of America.  Teachers are us and just as we are, they are compelled to work within the system.  That doesn't mean that school system who set up ridiculous rules - no touching, zero tolerance and so on - and individual examples of a teacher exibiting that kind of thinking and behavior should not be highlighted.  Likewise, there are very fine people working in law enforcement, but examples of individual officers abusing their power over the rest of us should be brought to light.  How else can we hope to have this behavior changed across the board without highlights examples of bad police behavior.  It's not an indictment of all police and all good police should be happy to see the bad apples exposed.

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## newbitech

> I don't like the precedent you're trying to start here.  Very STATIST of you.   Please rethink it.  ~hugs~ HB34


was it the, its the system not the individuals line?  

That's what is bothering me about this thread.  I think this thread is baiting and divisive to be honest.  Teachers like the one who posted in this thread have a lot of work to do to get their profession turned around in the eyes of liberty.

Certainly all teachers and schools aren't the worst.  We need a fundamental change to the system that starts by getting big government the hell out of it.  The people with the largest stake in this battle is held by parents.  Schools aren't going to listen to teachers before they listen to their state reps who fund them.  However schools would listen to the parents of the kids who fund the states who fund the schools.  

So a school teacher in the revolution is not going to be so much concerned with educating the kids are they are going to be concerned with educating the parents.  I am not a teacher, but my logic tells me that  teachers don't have a big voice in this battle.  Therefor, I would assume that it would be in the best interest of the freedom teacher to lay low while on the job, regardless of the criticism of the system and SOME PEOPLES perceived wrongful attack of ALL TEACHERS.  

I wouldn't want to fight that as a teacher, and I also think defending an institution is not as important as defending the country.

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## acptulsa

> I really don't think you comprehend what it is like to risk going to jail.


Oh, come on Kraig.  In this day and age, the legal code is such a mess that ignorance of the law is the norm--because _no one_ can remember and understand it all.  The way they're passing laws, it's becoming nearly impossible to walk down the sidewalk without violating one or two.  Don't think I don't know what those bars look like from the other side.

We're all in the same boat, Kraig.  I'm just saying that your friend is proof that there's no such thing as 100%, and that the OP is correct in asserting that _we must not discourage that wonderful two percent_ (or whatever) _that are fighting for us!!_

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## Justinjj1

haha, jesus.

This is my 5th year teaching.  I make $31,500 a year to teach kids about the Constitution and the founding fathers.  I don't exactly go home and roll around in "stolen loot".  I support Ron Paul's position on doing away with the Department of Education and NCLB, but I had no idea a lot of his supporters considered all public education tyrannical.   In fact I'm pretty sure most of the founding fathers understood the importance of education to a free society.

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## bossman068410

> I don't like the precedent you're trying to start here.  Very STATIST of you.   Please rethink it.  ~hugs~ HB34


Lool STATIST 

I would love to see the demise of the whole system.
I just don't want to make every individual a BOOGIEMAN.
How do you expect to bring in supporters if you make them as this evil creature?

Could you describe what precident you feel im trying to make?

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## VUK

> *Deliberate Dumbing Down of America - E Book download is NOW FREE TO ALL!!!
> Right click and "Save Link As"
> Click here to begin download
> File is 6.75 MB*


Thank you.

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## Minarchy4Sale

Ill stop criticizing teachers and cops when they stop behaving like communists and nazis.

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## newbitech

> We hardly hang out anymore, old friends from highschool but we do keep in touch.  My $#@!ty use of language aside, as far as he knows all of his co-workers fit the pig description.  No of course not every single cop in Texas, I was just trying to say that the bad cops are NOT the minority, and their reputation precedes them.
> 
> *I can forgive ignorance and apathy on a personal level up until the ignorant are using violence against me. * That is what cops do, that is their job.  I really don't think you comprehend what it is like to risk going to jail.



Violence on the physical level = Cops
Violence on the philosophical level = Teachers
Violence on the psychological level = Cops + Teachers
Cops + Teachers = THE SYSTEM

Teacher teach us that the system (AKA authority) is here to help us
Cops prove teacher wrong.  This is a vicious cycle that starts at the elementary level.  As adults, our experience with Cops teach us one way or another that the teacher was right, even tho the evidence of our cognitive dissonance proves the teacher was wrong.  Yet  thru the pressures of society and this massive societal cognitive dissonance we continue to trust our kids in the hands of a tyrannical system and pay for it thru our hard work.

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## Kraig

> Oh, come on Kraig.  In this day and age, the legal code is such a mess that ignorance of the law is the norm--because _no one_ can remember and understand it all.  The way they're passing laws, it's becoming nearly impossible to walk down the sidewalk without violating one or two.  Don't think I don't know what those bars look like from the other side.
> 
> We're all in the same boat, Kraig.  I'm just saying that your friend is proof that there's no such thing as 100%, and that the OP is correct in asserting that _we must not discourage that wonderful two percent_ (or whatever) _that are fighting for us!!_


Well some laws are enforced more than others, I think you would agree.  I agree that there is no such thing as 100% (with sterotypes on groups of people), but I still can't afford to trust them in most cases.  If they do want my trust or respect, step one is convincing me that they see the violence and tyranny commited on a daily basis by cops and that they agree it is blantently obvious and blatently out of control.  Step two is convincing me that they will take no part in it.  At that point I can trust that they won't pull a gun on me and once we reach that point a rational and friendly relationship is possible. 

As long as they wear the uniform, the ball is in the court and I will avoid them at all costs until they make the extra effort.  It's not worth the risk.

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## Dr.3D

> haha, jesus.
> 
> This is my 5th year teaching.  I make $31,500 a year to teach kids about the Constitution and the founding fathers.  I don't exactly go home and roll around in "stolen loot".  I support Ron Paul's position on doing away with the Department of Education and NCLB, but I had no idea a lot of his supporters considered all public education tyrannical.   In fact I'm pretty sure most of the founding fathers understood the importance of education to a free society.


Well, there is a fine line between education and indoctrination.  The instructor should be very careful to consider the motives of those who push the governments indoctrination agenda through the educational materials they provide.   

I believe education and government should be as separate as church and state.

An instructor should be on the look out for indoctrination and exclude it from the education they are supposed to provide.  They should also be aware of the indoctrination they were exposed to when they went through school to get their degree to teach.

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## Kraig

> Violence on the physical level = Cops
> Violence on the philosophical level = Teachers
> Violence on the psychological level = Cops + Teachers
> Cops + Teachers = THE SYSTEM
> 
> Teacher teach us that the system (AKA authority) is here to help us
> Cops prove teacher wrong.  This is a vicious cycle that starts at the elementary level.  As adults, our experience with Cops teach us one way or another that the teacher was right, even tho the evidence of our cognitive dissonance proves the teacher was wrong.  Yet  thru the pressures of society and this massive societal cognitive dissonance we continue to trust our kids in the hands of a tyrannical system and pay for it thru our hard work.


See I don't have kids and I didn't go through the public school system so teachers have done me no personal harm.  If I did have kids and I sent them through the system, I would have to blame myself 100% for it's failings and not the teacher.  I blame the government for taxing me to pay for schools I will never use, but once again it's not the teachers doing this.

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## newbitech

> haha, jesus.
> 
> This is my 5th year teaching.  I make $31,500 a year to teach kids about the Constitution and the founding fathers.  I don't exactly go home and roll around in "stolen loot".  I support Ron Paul's position on doing away with the Department of Education and NCLB,* but I had no idea a lot of his supporters considered all public education tyrannical*.   In fact I'm pretty sure most of the founding fathers understood the importance of education to a free society.



B.S.  now they start coming out of the woodwork.  I am so sick of the attacks.  Why don't you try being honest in this debate.


Its not tyrannical its a waste of my frigging money and is so broken as to be completely unworthy of my support or even consideration thereof.  

I respect Liberty lovers, I do not respect public educators in general, not because of any personal issue, but because of the CONTENT and premise under which they teach. 

I don't think the liberty movement needs constitutional teachers.  I think constitutional teacher need the liberty movement.  If these so called teachers who pop up out of nowhere to defend the profession are really part of the liberty movement, I am going to need to see more posting by them in non divisive threads and in support of other efforts to back the movement. 

This entire thread is ridiculous and the premise is completely weak and unsupported.  Not worthy of further debate IMO.

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## heavenlyboy34

> Lool STATIST 
> 
> I would love to see the demise of the whole system.
> I just don't want to make every individual a BOOGIEMAN.
> How do you expect to bring in supporters if you make them as this evil creature?
> 
> Could you describe what precident you feel im trying to make?



I was referring specifically to this-

"DO NOT CAST the first stone at teachers if you

EVER had a government job
EVER took a government back student loan
EVER use the post office
EVER went on unemployment
EVER used a public park
EVER bla bla bla........"

This argument automatically kills most attempts at "reform" that RP and his ilk desire because most "reformers" fit into these categories.  It kind of reminds me of people who used to lecture me about how I shouldn't disagree with the government because they "keep me safe" and "provide for my general welfare".  

You're basically spinning an "appeal to authority" fallacy (like a good little Statist would).

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## Deborah K

> I agree with the OP.
> Really too many here are intent on making everyone their enemy. If everyone is your enemy, you'll have no friends and one hell of a big army to fight against alone.


I agree.  A lot of people on this forum are way too paranoid and way too exclusive.  If you don't fit their exact mold of what a Ron Paul supporter should be, then you are the enemy!   We can't afford to be turning people with open minds away.

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## bossman068410

> B.S.  now they start coming out of the woodwork.  I am so sick of the attacks.  Why don't you try being honest in this debate.
> 
> 
> Its not tyrannical its a waste of my frigging money and is so broken as to be completely unworthy of my support or even consideration thereof.  
> 
> I respect Liberty lovers, I do not respect public educators in general, not because of any personal issue, but because of the CONTENT and premise under which they teach. 
> 
> I don't think the liberty movement needs constitutional teachers.  I think constitutional teacher need the liberty movement.  If these so called teachers who pop up out of nowhere to defend the profession are really part of the liberty movement, I am going to need to see more posting by them in non divisive threads and in support of other efforts to back the movement. 
> 
> This entire thread is ridiculous and the premise is completely weak and unsupported.  Not worthy of further debate IMO.


You catch more flies with Honey.....
What premise do you feel is weak?

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## newbitech

> *You catch more flies with Honey*.....
> What premise do you feel is weak?


That one.

If you didn't have stinking rotting garbage stacked up around your house, you wouldn't be worried about catching damn flies.  

TAKE OUT THE TRASH!

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## Deborah K

> * The "big tent" is a loony fantasy and it sucks.*



Explain that comment.  You are sounding like a collectivist now.  Tell me TW, who is allowed in your ideal world?

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## Munier1

I mostly agree with the OP on this.  The only problem is that these kinds of professions seem to attract the most nefarious individuals.  At the very least, they DISTRACT those individuals who could do the jobs with integrity.  Academia attracts Marxists for college professors, K-12 attracts paternalists and low-brow socialists (those not smart enough to even get Marxism), and the police force attracts people with a criminal mindset (since thinking like a criminal supposedly helps you to be a better cop).

Thankfully, there are a few exceptions to these rules.  We understand, as students of the Austrian School, that humans aren't meant to be generalized that much, that they are complex individuals who have many cross-cutting tendencies, experiences, and beliefs.

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## homah

Yes, teachers are the equivalent of nazis.  Or maybe, just maybe, they're regular people trying to educate kids on how to solve math and science problems, how to tell the difference between their, they're and there (you were absent that day, but trust me, they taught it) and how the American Revolution came to pass.

Truth Warrior and you seem to think teachers are trying to indoctrinate you.  Someone should send them the memo, because they aren't aware of the plan.




> Right. There just doing their jobs.

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## bossman068410

> That one.
> 
> If you didn't have stinking rotting garbage stacked up around your house, you wouldn't be worried about catching damn flies.  
> 
> TAKE OUT THE TRASH!


TY I'm trying to be objective.

So you REJECT the OATHKEEPERS?
Do you REJECT all teachers?
Do you REJECT all EVERYONE WHO works in the Government

THEN YOU REJECT RON PAUL

Do you see the Argument you are giving?

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## newbitech

> TY I'm trying to be objective.
> 
> So you REJECT the OATHKEEPERS?
> Do you REJECT all teachers?
> Do you REJECT all EVERYONE WHO works in the Government
> 
> THEN YOU REJECT RON PAUL
> 
> Do you see the Argument you are giving?



pfftt.. strawman

I'll give you one chance to go back and re-read what I already said and respond to my argument.  If you come back with some more blase rhetoric with words like ALL, EVERY, EVERYONE, then I will be confirmed to write off everything you say on this subject from here in.

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## bossman068410

> pfftt.. strawman


No that was a gutpunch to your argument.

Our goal is to bring people into the movement not to chase them away.

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## Minarchy4Sale

> No that was a gutpunch to your argument.
> 
> Our goal is to bring people into the movement not to chase them away.


You dont bring people to the movement by taking the movement to them.  You bring people to the movement by getting them to see the error of their ways.

Honestly, if your teacher friend is that big a wuss that she cant see the crap in her own profession, then she wasnt worth having.

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## bossman068410

> You dont bring people to the movement by taking the movement to them.  You bring people to the movement by getting them to see the error of their ways.
> 
> Honestly, if your teacher friend is that big a wuss that she cant see the crap in her own profession, then she wasnt worth having.


I didn't see the s*** in the NEOCON movement back in my Hannity days.
It took a few patient logical Ron Paulers to point in the right direction.

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## christagious

> I don't like the way you are shaping your argument.  You need to give some specific example. 
> 
> How about stop attacking supporters who speak the truth that your friends can't swallow?


I agree with the OP.  Here in a year I will be finished with school and I WILL BE a teacher.  Sure there are always a few bad apples in the bunch but that goes with any group of people.  There are good cops, there are bad cops.  There are good teachers, there are bad teachers. There are good doctors, there are bad doctors.  There are good Ron Paul supporters and there are bad Ron Paul supporters.

There's nothing that "friends can't swallow", the OP is simply saying that a teacher friend of his came to to an event with an open mind and very well could have been turned into a supporter, instead because of $#@!s who have to collectively put every person of a specific profession into a group and bash them, the potential supporter was turned off.  People are turned off of this movement every single day because of the way some of you talk about certain groups of people or talk about certain issues.  

And because I'm not too much of a wordsmith I will quote some posts from this thread that I wholeheartedly agree with.




> Why would we profile people?  I thought we were all here because we understood that we're all different?....
> 
> All Bilderbergers and CFR members are the enemy?  That I might believe.  All cops and teachers are the enemy?  _All_ of them?  Yer nuts.





> I am a high school government teacher and a Ron Paul supporter.  Glad to know that Truth Warrior considers me part of the tyranny.


I hear ya Justin, not ALL teachers are part of the system, per se.  Besides, don't they say the best way to change the system is from within?




> [SIZE="5"]
> DO NOT CAST the first stone at teachers if you
> 
> EVER had a government job
> EVER took a government back student loan
> EVER use the post office
> EVER went on unemployment
> EVER used a public park
> EVER bla bla bla........


WHOO!!! that's what I'm talking about.




> Yes, teachers are the equivalent of nazis.  Or maybe, just maybe, they're regular people trying to educate kids on how to solve math and science problems, how to tell the difference between their, they're and there (you were absent that day, but trust me, they taught it) and how the American Revolution came to pass.
> 
> Truth Warrior and you seem to think teachers are trying to indoctrinate you.  Someone should send them the memo, because they aren't aware of the plan.


+1




> If you don't fit their exact mold of what a Ron Paul supporter should be, then you are the enemy!   We can't afford to be turning people with open minds away.


Sadly people will continue to be turned away because of the way some people in this movement carry themselves.  They expect people to have open minds when being introduced to this movement but they themselves are very close minded.  And with that...


After reading through some more posts, I am done with this thread.  The close-minded paranoia of some of you, Truth Warrior among a few others, disgusts me. I'm amazed that I have stuck around this long given some of the people we have to deal with on here.

----------


## pcosmar

> You catch more flies with Honey.....
> What premise do you feel is weak?


Well lets just post some facts rather than emotional issues.
Since the Police State is too easy a target, let look at "education".
http://www.nea.org/home/IssuesAndAction.html
Lots here that is contrary to the freedom movement, but lets take one.
http://www.nea.org/home/16345.htm



> Higher Education for Undocumented Immigrants
> 
> 
> Current federal law prevents many talented undocumented immigrants who have lived much of their lives in the United States and have graduated from high school from pursuing higher education. Bipartisan legislation (the DREAM Act, H.R. 12754/S. 774) has been introduced in Congress to allow states to determine their own residency rules, thereby permitting them to offer in-state tuition and higher education benefits to undocumented students.
>  NEA supports this proposal.


Look around. This is the face of the enemy.
More here,
http://www.unionvoice.org/afteactivs...n_center3.html

Still more.

http://teachersunionexposed.com/

----------


## newbitech

> No that was a gutpunch to your argument.
> 
> Our goal is to bring people into the movement not to chase them away.



nothing in your OP was objective.  I can't see thru all bull$#@! all the time, but I can see thru your bull$#@!.

You are the one who is doing the serious generalization.  It almost sounds as if you are attempting to marginalize one of the base platforms of this movement which is free market education.

You are also trivializing or completely ignorant of some of our recent success like the MIAC report exposure.  I think if you are serious about this argument, you ought to step back and think about what being objective really is. 

The goal of CFL is to educate.  Somehow you got a teacher there and couldn't make the connection.  Don't blame the movement for that and don't try and paint people who dislike establishment teachers as anti-Ron Paul or anti freedom message.  

Again go back and re-read my arguement and stop looking at my statements for a reason why your teacher friend got turned off.  If I was there, I am sure things would have been different.

----------


## Anti Federalist

There is no one single institution that has had a greater negative effect on individual liberty and intellectual ability than the state run school system.

Google *Horace Mann* and *Prussian School Model*.

Then get back to me.

How anybody could be part of that system and call themselves a "liberty lover" is beyond me.

And don't tell me it's "it's a job".

I turned down, 8 years ago, a six figure naval contract job, just *because* it was a "government job".

Time for people to start putting their money where their mouths are.

----------


## Deborah K

> I didn't see the s*** in the NEOCON movement back in my Hannity days.
> It took a few patient logical Ron Paulers to point in the right direction.


I'm starting to think that the very people who are so hard-core about who can be in this movement and who can't, have probably never converted anyone.  They're all talk and no action.  If you think you can hit someone over the head with your logic and expect them to suddenly see the light, then you're a GD'd fool.

----------


## misterx

STOP demonizing neocons and communists. We should be nice to them and maybe they'll join us.

----------


## Danke

> Woot. I intend to say that in four years


I thought you'd be bear food by then.

----------


## bossman068410

> Well lets just post some facts rather than emotional issues.
> Since the Police State is too easy a target, let look at "education".
> http://www.nea.org/home/IssuesAndAction.html
> Lots here that is contrary to the freedom movement, but lets take one.
> http://www.nea.org/home/16345.htm
> 
> 
> Look around. This is the face of the enemy.
> More here,
> ...


Your pointing at the system and I agree with all the arguments.
Focus on what I'm saying about the Individuals. 

I'M BEGGING to open your mind !!!
I'M BEGGING for you guys to stop the HATE !!!

PLEASE !!!!!

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> I'm starting to think that the very people who are so hard-core about who can be in this movement and who can't, have probably never converted anyone.  They're all talk and no action.  If you think you can hit someone over the head with your logic and expect them to suddenly see the light, then you're a GD'd fool.


I converted a left liberal during the presidential campaign.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> There is no one single institution that has had a greater negative effect on individual liberty and intellectual ability than the state run school system.
> 
> Google *Horace Mann* and *Prussian School Model*.
> 
> Then get back to me.
> 
> How anybody could be part of that system and call themselves a "liberty lover" is beyond me.
> 
> And don't tell me it's "it's a job".
> ...


While I agree with you in sentiment and you know I do, there are a lot of people out there that have much weaker personalities and constitutions than many of us do.  Remember that personality poll someone ran awhile back?  There are a lot of followers out there and people who just lived their lives in a fog.  It doesn't mean they are bad people.  No, I wouldn't want to hang out with them, because one of my bad traits is that I don't suffer stupidity well, but they're not the people who have engineered this deal we're watching.  Yes, they allowed it to happen.  But then again, so did we.

Some of these people are starting to wake up now.  Yeah, it took a steam shovel to hit them over the head, but they ARE waking up.  So, we can either embrace them and teach them, or we can insult the hell out of them and make them join up with the very same people engineering our collapse.  

C'mon guys, you know which one will further our goals and which one won't.

----------


## Feenix566

There are plenty of good teachers and cops out there. The unions and the beurocrats are the problem. The unions prevent bad teachers from being fired and they prevent good teachers from being promoted. The beurocrats impose their agendas on the teachers without regard to how it impacts that students' educations. If we had a policy of school choice, unions and beurocrats would be removed from the system in a short period of time, and our education system would become dramatically more efficient.

----------


## bossman068410

> I converted a left liberal during the presidential campaign.


YEAAAA !!!

Was it with hate ?

or

Was it with rational thought?

----------


## specsaregood

> THERE ARE A LOT of GOOD teachers and cops WE NEED their support to fight TYRANNY.


I have my doubts about most cops; but in regards to teachers, I couldn't agree more. 





> *The cops and teachers are willingly working WITHIN the current "system". That makes them PART of the TYRANNY problem.<IMHO>*


Many teachers just want to actually teach and like working with children.  It isn't generally a career you get into to get rich.  There aren't that many ways to be involved in teaching children other than to "work within the system."

----------


## Todd

> I don't like the way you are shaping your argument.  You need to give some specific example. 
> 
> How about stop attacking supporters who speak the truth that your friends can't swallow?


He's got a point.  You don't build coalitions to change things if you make it about this or that group as THE problem.  In my several years as a TA in the school system, I can count very few who did not seriously desire to educate children.  It was the administration and regulations that were the problems.  Attacking the system is the right method.  We lost alot of support during and leading up to the primaries for just this reason.

----------


## newbitech

> I'm starting to think that the very people who are so hard-core about who can be in this movement and who can't, have probably never converted anyone.  They're all talk and no action.  If you think you can hit someone over the head with your logic and expect them to suddenly see the light, then you're a GD'd fool.


With all due respect, how can you tell that from the internet?  To be fair, there are some people who I easily converted because of their crap experience with the law enforcement.

I am working on an educator right now and the biggest hang up is not the people in the movement, not even close.  If I have a bad idea about something, a really good teacher is going to want to help me correct that.  

No the biggest hangup is the indoctrination by far.  The old school memes the blind respect that people in this country have for authority.  That's the biggest hang up I have in getting this educator to change political affiliation.

----------


## Deborah K

> I converted a left liberal during the presidential campaign.


I bet you didn't do it by insulting his intelligence, did you?

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> YEAAAA !!!
> 
> Was it with hate ?
> 
> or
> 
> Was it with rational thought?


Rational thought-discussing RP's opinions.  I hope it turned out to be permanent, but I haven't checked in with him since the campaign. (The fellow was a registered democrat and student at Phoenix College at the time.  He even asked me how to register Republican to vote for RP in the primary, and I gave him info about that)

----------


## newbitech

> He's got a point.  You don't build coalitions to change things if you make it about this or that group as THE problem.  In my several years as a TA in the school system, I can count very few who did not seriously desire to educate children.  It was the administration and regulations that were the problems.  Attacking the system is the right method.  We lost alot of support during and leading up to the primaries for just this reason.



I am more than willing to be corrected when I am wrong.  I am also completely opened minded to challenging my own personal dogmas.  I just need a sliver of evidence that suggests what I "should" attack.  If it's not the people who buy into the system, then please explain to me where this system is that I should attack?

Should I protest schools?  Should I ask my city council to ban schools?  If its the curriculum, should I ask the state re-write all of the books and tests?  

What's the plan teacher?  How can I help you change the system?

----------


## pcosmar

> STOP demonizing neocons and communists. We should be nice to them and maybe they'll join us.


^ This +1* NOT*



> Originally Posted by *bossman068410* 
> No that was a gutpunch to your argument.
> 
> Our goal is to bring people into the movement not to chase them away.


I for one have no interest in "bringing people into the movement". I want them to wake the Frak up.
Once they are awake they will be in the "movement".

----------


## Feenix566

> After reading through some more posts, I am done with this thread.  The close-minded paranoia of some of you, Truth Warrior among a few others, disgusts me. I'm amazed that I have stuck around this long given some of the people we have to deal with on here.


Just block him. You'll enjoy this forum much more that way

----------


## Kraig

> ^ This +1
> 
> 
> I for one have no interest in "bringing people into the movement". I want them to wake the Frak up.
> Once they are awake they will be in the "movement".


I agree.  This is not something someone takes part in because everyone is so friendly.  You either get it or you don't.

----------


## newbitech

> Rational thought-discussing RP's opinions.  I hope it turned out to be permanent, but I haven't checked in with him since the campaign. (The fellow was a registered democrat and student at Phoenix College at the time.  He even asked me how to register Republican to vote for RP in the primary, and I gave him info about that)



very similar experience here.  Although I have followed up.  The teacher is telling me that the challenge has not been teaching the kids, but getting the parents to change their attitudes about education in general.  

For whatever reason (i think I touched on this earlier) parents (in general don't freak out I know NOT ALL PARENTS ARE LIKE THIS, I AM NOT ATTACKING PARENTS) leave the authority completely up to the schools.  Parents WILL NOT CHALLENGE that authority.

----------


## homah

> I for one have no interest in "bringing people into the movement". I want them to wake the Frak up.
> Once they are awake they will be in the "movement".


You think you're going to "wake up" teachers and cops up by comparing them to $#@!ing nazis?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Your pointing at the system and I agree with all the arguments.
> Focus on what I'm saying about the Individuals. 
> 
> I'M BEGGING to open your mind !!!
> I'M BEGGING for you guys to stop the HATE !!!
> 
> PLEASE !!!!!


I understand your frustration, I really do.

But look, I can't speak for all that, generally, think the way I do, only for myself.

I've been at this a long time, and frankly, I'm tired. Tired of continually playing nice nice with people who should know better.

The ship is sinking and I've spent my time running around the decks telling everybody the ship is sinking, all the while getting mocked and scorned: "the ship's not sinking, that's a conspiracy theory, the captain says everything is fine, shut up and go away, your doom and gloom is ruining our good time".

In my mind's eye, I've now gone to lifeboats, I'm rowing away with a select few family and friends who also had the good sense to realize the ship was sinking.

But the vast majority, still in denial, won't acknowledge the ship is going down until the cold waters of death are their ankles.

By then it will be too late for them, and too late for me to help, even if I could.

Point being, the time for polite cajoling is over, whether anybody wants to admit it or not.

----------


## JK/SEA

> ^ This +1* NOT*
> 
> 
> I for one have no interest in "bringing people into the movement". I want them to wake the Frak up.
> Once they are awake they will be in the "movement".


So, by your logic, insult them, blame them, and they will come is that it?

by the by, my wife is a 4th grade teacher, and supports Ron Paul, 
and evidently a masochist.

----------


## pcosmar

> You think you're going to "wake up" teachers and cops up by comparing them to $#@!ing nazis?


Nope. I don't expect much from most of them.
Only the very few with a functioning brain.

----------


## homah

> Nope. 
> Only the very few with a functioning brain.


So is your goal to wake people up or not?  You have me confused.

Those with a brain are not going to respond to you calling them nazis.

----------


## Justinjj1

> I don't think the liberty movement needs constitutional teachers.


I think you're wrong.  If the liberty movement is going to be successful then then the young people need to know something about liberty and its origins, because not everyone learns it at home.

----------


## Anti Federalist

I love these arguments, I really do, only because they give me a chance to "whoop and holler".

But what I don't understand is why there has to be the argument in the first place.

There is room for and a role for, both types of people and personalities.

Prags and Three Percenters both have a role to play.

Sam Adams / John Adams...

Patrick Henry / William Otis...

You get the idea...




> While I agree with you in sentiment and you know I do, there are a lot of people out there that have much weaker personalities and constitutions than many of us do.  Remember that personality poll someone ran awhile back?  There are a lot of followers out there and people who just lived their lives in a fog.  It doesn't mean they are bad people.  No, I wouldn't want to hang out with them, because one of my bad traits is that I don't suffer stupidity well, but they're not the people who have engineered this deal we're watching.  Yes, they allowed it to happen.  But then again, so did we.
> 
> Some of these people are starting to wake up now.  Yeah, it took a steam shovel to hit them over the head, but they ARE waking up.  So, we can either embrace them and teach them, or we can insult the hell out of them and make them join up with the very same people engineering our collapse.  
> 
> C'mon guys, you know which one will further our goals and which one won't.

----------


## bossman068410

> I understand your frustration, I really do.
> 
> But look, I can't speak for all that, generally, think the way I do, only for myself.
> 
> I've been at this a long time, and frankly, I'm tired. Tired of continually playing nice nice with people who should know better.
> 
> The ship is sinking and I've spent my time running around the decks telling everybody the ship is sinking, all the while getting mocked and scorned: "the ship's not sinking, that's a conspiracy theory, the captain says everything is fine, shut up and go away, your doom and gloom is ruining our good time".
> 
> In my mind's eye, I've now gone to lifeboats, I'm rowing away with a select few family and friends who also had the good sense to realize the ship was sinking.
> ...


I can see how you feel too !!!!!!!

Every time i here about the Global Warming people I just want to punch every environmentalist in the head !!!!!  It is tiring to talk about the Genocide that is being perpetrated by the banning of DDT Tens of Millions in Africa have died from these policies.  All I get are eye rolls.  Frustrating as hell.

----------


## Truth Warrior

> Many teachers just want to actually teach and like working with children. It isn't generally a career you get into to get rich. There aren't that many ways to be involved in teaching children other than to "work within the system."


*I understand that. The "system" just grinds them up, grinds them down, burns them out, chews and spits them out over time, by design.* 

*Next "idealistic" crop, usually dumber than the last BTW.*

----------


## newbitech

> I think you're wrong.  If the liberty movement is going to be successful then then the young people need to know something about liberty and its origins, because not everyone learns it at home.


if we don't resolve our issues soon, their won't be a constitution to teach.  Even then history won't be kind to our beloved document.  Read the whole post, not just selective pieces, please.

Edit:  Think about it, the vast majority of folks attached, associated to, or deeply involved in this movement didn't get their ideas or learn about what is going on in school.  The "system" as it is being referred to is currently set up to actively deny those young people the kind of information that would allow this movement to return the rule of law to this country.    Actively denying!  How does a Liberty Lover (aka RP supporter) deal with that?  I have much respect for those folks, but not because they are teachers.  Because they are Liberty Lovers.  I cannot state my point more succinctly than that.

----------


## Danke

I don't agree with government run schools, but am a product of public schools.  I was always conservative leaning toward Libertarianism, with the Libertarianism persuasion gaining strength as I got older.  A lot of our younger RP supporters are a products of government schools too.

So even though I want to eliminate them, I don't think they are as influential as we are giving them credit for.

----------


## JK/SEA

another thing. we have 'SO CALLED' Ron Paul people demonizing gays by trying to legislate gay marriage in Washington State. I wonder how many gay people we could have got  on board with 'the message' of liberty. Sadly, i'm afraid this movement is heading to the crapper because of self interests, and lack of reigning in our personal demons.

I'm close to moving on away from this CURRENT revolution, but i want to bitch slap a few people first before my computer gets taken away.

----------


## pcosmar

> So, by your logic, insult them, blame them, and they will come is that it?
> 
> by the by, my wife is a 4th grade teacher, and supports Ron Paul, 
> and evidently a masochist.


I don't know your wife. Does she have a functioning brain? 
As I said there are a few, but certainly not "most".
Does your wife teach from distorted text books or does she teach kids the truth?

Most that "get it" go to private schools or home school environments.
I know that I could not in clear conscience remain in a system that distorts and deliberately dumbs down education.

----------


## Fr3shjive

I agree with TS. We need to fix the system to weed out the bad cops and teachers. 

Personally teachers should be paid on some sort of performance based pay. Cops on the other hand should be monitored by an outside agency with cameras in their cars that they cant touch. Internal Affairs hardly ever weeds out the bad cops.

----------


## JK/SEA

> I don't know your wife. Does she have a functioning brain? 
> As I said there are a few, but certainly not "most".
> Does your wife teach from distorted text books or does she teach kids the truth?
> 
> Most that "get it" go to private schools or home school environments.
> I know that I could not in clear conscience remain in a system that distorts and deliberately dumbs down education.


Math, reading, no history per district rules. She does teach critical thinking.
Point is, if you want to use blankets to cover your opinion on teachers, then may i say, you should be a little more 'open minded' and not buy into the BS your eating.

----------


## Minarchy4Sale

> another thing. we have 'SO CALLED' Ron Paul people demonizing gays by trying to legislate gay marriage in Washington State. I wonder how many gay people we could have got  on board with 'the message' of liberty. Sadly, i'm afraid this movement is heading to the crapper because of self interests, and lack of reigning in our personal demons.
> 
> I'm close to moving on away from this CURRENT revolution, but i want to bitch slap a few people first before my computer gets taken away.


JK, Id like to keep this civil.. But Im not sure I see the connection.  Why do we need to pander go Gays or anyone for that matter?  Gays have the same rights as everyone else.  Everyone can marry a member of the opposite sex.  Being opposed to Gay marriage doesnt make you a homophobe or anti-gay.  It does make you someone who values the nuclear family.

----------


## acptulsa

Drop out of the system or you're feeding it.

Burrow from within.

The only way to cure the system is to let it fail and build a better one from the rubble.

Reform, if possible, will allow the system to be fixed without so many people getting hurt.

We need a new slate.

We just need to clean the slate.



I ain't God, and I don't know.  But, in the meantime, I am grateful for the good apples.  I'm glad the bad apples didn't spoil the _whole_ barrel.

----------


## Minarchy4Sale

> And don't tell me it's "it's a job".
> 
> I turned down, 8 years ago, a six figure naval contract job, just *because* it was a "government job".
> 
> Time for people to start putting their money where their mouths are.


Agreed.  If I had decided to pursue money instead of liberty, my life would certainly be much easier.

----------


## Xenophage

> are you 12 years old?  did your grade school teachers forget to give you a jelly belly for getting an 'A' on your clay project?
> 
> grow up.


Let me clarify: I hate PUBLIC teachers... and I hate cops.

You think this is immature of me?  Are you enamored by these people?  Are you enamored by slave owners and mobsters?

It is not the concept of a teacher, or even the concept of a police officer that I have a problem with.  What I have a problem with is anybody who would be a police officer in _full knowledge_ that a large part of his job will be to initiate violence against non-violent, innocent people.  There is no person of any moral integrity that could ever even consider becoming a police officer.  Only brutes and sociopaths are drawn to this 'profession.'

I have a problem with someone who believes it is their moral duty to monopolize the education of a child.  Ignorant $#@!heads that work in the public school system and have the most absurd notions about science and literature feel that they own the minds of our youth.  I actually hate these people more than I hate cops, for they're the root cause of our society's disintegration.  Public teachers, and public schools in general, are quite likely the primary cause of a vast majority of psychological ailments that afflict children in America.  The public school system encourages a "Lord of the Flies" sociology in developing young minds, where they learn from an impressionable young age to victimize one another and become victims themselves - and nothing else, because they certainly don't learn any academia.  At the heart of this system is the philosophy that the State owns your children, and if you don't like it then the aforementioned police will carry out violence against your family.

You're the one that needs to grow up.

----------


## pcosmar

> Math, reading, no history per district rules. She does teach critical thinking.
> Point is, if you want to use blankets to cover your opinion on teachers, then may i say, you should be a little more 'open minded' and not buy into the BS your eating.


Ok, I have only my experience to go on, and since I was "Class of 75" that is a bit dated.
My 8 th grade graduated 18 students. Of those maybe 10 had  reading ability above 4th grade level.
Except for rare exceptions, the young people I have met in later years show no improvement.
I see bright intelligent and imaginative kids put on drugs (Ritalin) rather than spending time to stimulate their brains.
I have seen College students that don't understand basic fundamentals.

There are people here that can not read the published works of our enemies and see what their plans are. 

So yes, I am highly skeptical.

----------


## Minarchy4Sale

> There are plenty of good teachers and cops out there. The unions and the beurocrats are the problem. .


If there were truly a significant number of  good teachers and cops, there would be no bad teachers or cops.  Good people simply dont stand by and let bad $#@! happen without doing something about it.

----------


## bossman068410

> So extending your logic means that we should praise Hannity?


No I'm saying that it was NOT HATE that brought me to the movement.
It was Logic and Reason other Ron Paul supporters brought to the Hannity forums.

----------


## Xenophage

Oh I didn't realize your wife was a teacher.  I'm sorry.  Actually, I LOVE teachers!  REALLY!

----------


## bossman068410

> Ok, I have only my experience to go on, and since I was "Class of 75" that is a bit dated.
> My 8 th grade graduated 18 students. Of those maybe 10 had  reading ability above 4th grade level.
> Except for rare exceptions, the young people I have met in later years show no improvement.
> I see bright intelligent and imaginative kids put on drugs (Ritalin) rather than spending time to stimulate their brains.
> I have seen College students that don't understand basic fundamentals.
> 
> There are people here that can not read the published works of our enemies and see what their plans are. 
> 
> So yes, I am highly skeptical.


OMG don't even go there.. You know how pissed I am at BIG PHAMA and our government DESTROYING children for profit and self interest.

----------


## acptulsa

Damn, these posts are coming in so fast I wonder if I'm wasting my time typing--is anyone actually reading, or just yelling at each other?

Black and white, good and evil--damn.  I blame the computers.  The complexity of computers is deceptive.  Zero or one, yes or no, on or off.  Humans are a little more complex than that, and so are our interactions.

If you're burrowing from within, you're feeding the system?  Maybe, but what are you feeding it?  If you're feeding the system poison, whose side are you on?  Is that flu bug in your body part of your system?

Stop and digest, people.

----------


## LibertyWorker

To me its simple. We have no more time to coddle people that know they are doing wrong so they can hang onto a pay check. Teachers that teach year after year know that the curriculum they are teaching is social ideology set forth by government. Not reading writing and math. Police violate peoples rights every day they go to work. They prevent vary little crime. They just clean up the mess left behind after the fact. making them little more than glorified garbage men. Most of the police spend their time milking people to create revenue for the city and state.

The time for these people is running out.

Either youre with us or you are with the terrorists

----------


## Xenophage

> No I'm saying that it was NOT HATE that brought me to the movement.
> It was Logic and Reason other Ron Paul supporters brought to the Hannity forums.


You don't have to be bitter and resentful like me, but I think my bitterness and resentment is logically justifiable.

----------


## Minarchy4Sale

> No I'm saying that it was NOT HATE that brought me to the movement.
> It was Logic and Reason other Ron Paul supporters brought to the Hannity forums.


You do understand that there is a distinct difference between hate and criticism, right?

----------


## donnay

The problem is this tyranny that is now at our threshold didn't happen over night and the clocks are ticking.  There is no time to coddle and spoon feed people, they have to *know* that something is radically wrong and take the time and initiative to research for themselves.  If you love liberty it is your duty to know the truth and prepare for it!

It is incumbent upon every individual to learn the founding of this country, learn the Declaration of Independence and Constitution--memorize them!  

Know why founders feared standing armies and centralized bankers--this is key.

They are not teaching this in public schools!
They are not teaching this in police academies!

Police have become the standing armies our founders warned us about.  Central banks have taken control and enslaved us all. Centralize government has taken over schools and put together curriculum that is indoctrinating our children to be good little servants.  Schools are set up like minimum security prisons.  

Read the 10 planks of the Communists Manifesto to get an idea where this country is going.

Plank 10.   *Free education for all children in public schools...*

No where in the Constitution does it say that you have a right to an education.  

If you do not pay your property taxes the standing armies comes.

That has nothing to do with liberty and that is why so many of us are angry at people who continue to acquiesce to this tyranny.

----------


## acptulsa

> To me it’s simple. We have no more time to coddle people that know they are doing wrong so they can hang onto a pay check. Teachers that teach year after year know that the curriculum they are teaching is social ideology set forth by government. Not reading writing and math. Police violate people’s rights every day they go to work. They prevent vary little crime. They just clean up the mess left behind after the fact. making them little more than glorified garbage men. Most of the police spend their time milking people to create revenue for the city and state.
> 
> The time for these people is running out.
> 
> Either you’re with us or you are with the terrorists


So, you're quoting Dubya.  Do you really believe you're a uniter, not a divider?

If you think this subject is simple, you're not looking at the whole picture.

No room for the teacher diligently trying to slide some truth into his or her classroom and hoping the superintendent doesn't find out?  No room for the prosecutor trying to figure out who is and isn't really a threat?  But how much worse would it be right now without them?

Time for these people is running out, and that's as it should be.  But how much do we harm ourselves when we throw the wheat out with the chaff?

Think again about the MIAC report.  Don't paint with the broad brush.  Every newspaper wirephoto is a bunch of little white spots and little black spots.  You must stand back to see the big picture they create.

----------


## JK/SEA

> Ok, I have only my experience to go on, and since I was "Class of 75" that is a bit dated.
> My 8 th grade graduated 18 students. Of those maybe 10 had  reading ability above 4th grade level.
> Except for rare exceptions, the young people I have met in later years show no improvement.
> I see bright intelligent and imaginative kids put on drugs (Ritalin) rather than spending time to stimulate their brains.
> I have seen College students that don't understand basic fundamentals.
> 
> There are people here that can not read the published works of our enemies and see what their plans are. 
> 
> So yes, I am highly skeptical.


Yes..ok..life is not black and white. For instance, my wife teaches in a TITLE ONE grade school, low income. Included in this is minority, and immigrant families. Lots of these kids can barely read and speak english, and have emotional and family problems, which makes it somewhat difficult to deal with, especially during test time. Teachers have only so much time to help these kids, and the parents are clueless as to why 'johnnie' is having problems, because USUALLY the parents don't know or won't help in educating their kids.

I'm pretty sure these problems have been around awhile, and until you can come up with a better plan, besides homeschooling, or brain transplants, i'm pretty sure this will continue to be a problem.

----------


## misterx

Of course most teachers want to educate children. The question is, what do they want to educate them with? Is it math and science, or is it their socialist beliefs? You almost have to be a partisan leftist to tolerate teaching in the public schools. That is the problem with teachers.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> To me it’s simple. We have no more time to coddle people that know they are doing wrong so they can hang onto a pay check. Teachers that teach year after year know that the curriculum they are teaching is social ideology set forth by government. Not reading writing and math. Police violate people’s rights every day they go to work. They prevent vary little crime. They just clean up the mess left behind after the fact. making them little more than glorified garbage men. Most of the police spend their time milking people to create revenue for the city and state.
> 
> The time for these people is running out.
> 
> Either you’re with us or you are with the terrorists


Ok.  Which approach do you figure would have the highest probability in getting a teacher to see the light?  Attacking them for being a teacher, or showing them through fact and reason that the curriculum they are teaching and the government programs they are carrying out, have created a bunch of drones who understand very little of the principles upon which this country was founded?  I am guessing, the latter.

----------


## LibertyWorker

> So, you're quoting Dubya.  Do you really believe you're a uniter, not a divider?
> 
> If you think this subject is simple, you're not looking at the whole picture.
> 
> No room for the teacher diligently trying to slide some truth into his or her classroom and hoping the superintendent doesn't find out?  No room for the prosecutor trying to figure out who is and isn't really a threat?  But how much worse would it be right now without them?
> 
> Time for these people is running out, and that's as it should be.  But how much do we harm ourselves when we throw the wheat out with the chaff?


We are at war.

I dont keep a whole barrel of bad apples because there are few good ones at the bottom.

----------


## pcosmar

> Yes..ok..life is not black and white. For instance, my wife teaches in a TITLE ONE grade school, low income. Included in this is minority, and immigrant families. Lots of these kids can barely read and speak english, and have emotional and family problems, which makes it somewhat difficult to deal with, especially during test time. Teachers have only so much time to help these kids, and the parents are clueless as to why 'johnnie' is having problems, because USUALLY the parents don't know or won't help in educating their kids.
> 
> I'm pretty sure these problems have been around awhile, and until you can come up with a better plan, besides homeschooling, or brain transplants, i'm pretty sure this will continue to be a problem.


Nope, It is coming to an end.
Our government can not continue, the paychecks will end.

I expect it to get ugly.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> We are at war.
> 
> I dont keep a whole barrel of bad apples because there are few good ones at the bottom.


Well, you know what, there aren't enough of US, so we're going to have to grow our ranks.   If you think we're going to do that by running up to people and telling them they have $#@! for brains, you have another thing coming.  TEACH them; don't alienate them.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> *Disagree with a liberal OR a conservative and then just watch what happens. *


Yes, and why you insist on doing that every opportunity you get and driving people away from learning about our principles, is very strange indeed.

----------


## acptulsa

> We are at war.
> 
> I dont keep a whole barrel of bad apples because there are few good ones at the bottom.


I hope this continues to be a land of sufficient plenty that we can afford to waste food this way, and can continue to throw wheat out with the chaff.  But I'm _not_ counting on it.  Especially where the liberty minded are concerned.

This is war.  Yup.  And we are in desperate need of reinforcements.

----------


## newbitech

> So, you're quoting Dubya.  Do you really believe you're a uniter, not a divider?
> 
> If you think this subject is simple, you're not looking at the whole picture.
> 
> No room for the teacher diligently trying to slide some truth into his or her classroom and hoping the superintendent doesn't find out?  No room for the prosecutor trying to figure out who is and isn't really a threat?  But how much worse would it be right now without them?
> 
> Time for these people is running out, and that's as it should be.  *But how much do we harm ourselves when we throw the wheat out with the chaff?*


We don't harm ourselves because we act as individuals.  This topic started because someone was offended by something a speaker said.  Rather than going to that speaker or those speakers and asking for clarity and having this conversation in real time face to face, that person and the OP decided to turn up their nose and walk away from the very idea that brought them to the event in the first place.  And then proceed to come here and vent and start divisive straw man threads that pit Liberty Lovers against teachers and act as if the entire movement is full of haters.  This kind of crap needs to be called out for what it is.  

No one threw that person out.  That person walked out on their own.  When you bring someone to this forum, it is up to you to work that relationship.  I have not had one single person I know get turned off by the way I deliver the  message.  That being said, I won't bring people to this forum to try and convert them, not my style.  No one I know posts here or at least they haven't told me they do.  Most people are not going to be as activist as I am and I am ok with that.  It doesn't take a majority to change this country.  I am sure that many people I talk to would find something to turn them off in this forum.  Those people aren't the hardcore support, and I'd be afraid to stand next to them in a protest.   They won't challenge authority until the movement challenges as a whole. 

However, those fringe supporters can be used successfully when the time is right.  Thats why you keep them at an arms length.  Thats why you don't expose baby supporters to the meat and potatoes.  I can't speak to what happened at the CFL event to the OP and this teacher.  BUt I highly doubt anything was said that should be taken as "Ron Paul supporters demonize teachers and cops".   Some hurt feelings maybe, but  you have to put that aside and look for truth.  It hurts.  I believe that if this teachers really is interested, he/she won't let what 1 or a few people said sidetrack her for the search for truth.  Unless of course part of that truth is forcing her to rethink her career or goals in life.  I know I experienced that cognative dissonance.  I am sure alot of people have, unfortunatley that is what the "system" has caused and why I hate it and anyone who is involved with it THAT WOULD REFUSE TO ACCEPT THE FACTS AND THRUTH EVEN IF IT CHALLENGES THEIR LIFE.  

We have to go after these individuals one at a time and by casting a wide net over that institution, just like we do with others such as congress, the bankers, etc.. we will feret out the good from the bad.  When we shine the light, the bad ones go scurrying and the good ones will welcome and embrace the message.

----------


## bossman068410

> You do understand that there is a distinct difference between hate and criticism, right?


YES...

But at the Campaign for liberty there was more HATE that criticism.  That is why I posted this here.  I wanted to let others know what the experience was like that I saw a possible problem in the movement. I wanted to see what other had to say about it.

This is what I'm seeing.  If we attack the individuals then we will never succeed.
We can go all day with this with every profession and belief here.

I HATE

Doctors because of big pharma
Environmentalist because of The Global Warming SCAM
Bankers because of the Monopoly of our money system
Soldiers because they fight in meaningless wars
Farmers because of Big Agra
Stock brokers because of Stock Manipulators
Teachers because of NEA and Government mandates
Cops because they are the Goons hired by the Government
Lawyers because they are scum sucking pigs
Animal rights activist because they are
Civil rights activist because it's not about civil rights It's about promoting Marxism

WHO IS LEFT?
NO ONE

That is why I feel we need to focus on the system.  Not the individual.

----------


## JK/SEA

hysterical thread. so full of mis-inforned people, but hey...everyone has an opinion, but facts are facts. life is not BLACK AND WHITE.

kill all the cops and teachers. ok, now what?

----------


## Justinjj1

[QUOTE=donnay;2054811]
It is incumbent upon every individual to learn the founding of this country, learn the Declaration of Independence and Constitution--memorize them!  

Know why founders feared standing armies and centralized bankers--this is key.

They are not teaching this in public schools!

QUOTE]


Yes it is taught in public schools, it is part of the basic curriculum.  I teach it every year.  But not only that I teach a wide degree of important things that are not in the textbook because most teachers have a pretty wide degree of freedom in shaping the curriculum.

A lot of you think that teachers are just day in and day out indocrinating students with state sponsored propaganda, that is just not the case.

----------


## JK/SEA

> YES...
> 
> But at the Campaign for liberty there was more HATE that criticism.  That is why I posted this here.  I wanted to let others know what the experience was like that I saw a possible problem in the movement. I wanted to see what other had to say about it.
> 
> This is what I'm seeing.  If we attack the individuals then we will never succeed.
> We can go all day with this with every profession and belief here.
> 
> I HATE
> 
> ...


Damn truth man.

I'm finding the same conclusions. Has the movement imploded by self interests?

----------


## acptulsa

All I know is, I'm an individual and so is everyone else.  I'm not Will Rogers and I can't say I've never met a man I didn't like.  But I do know people in education who are trying to do it right in spite of the system, and the more the system tries to pervert them the more determined they are to do it right.  And I know people in law enforcement who are determined not to lose sight of the real goal--justice--no matter how hard the pressure comes from above to adopt a new goal.  And I admire them greatly.

I ask again--yes they are feeding the system, but _what_ are they feeding it?

----------


## Xenophage

> Ok.  Which approach do you figure would have the highest probability in getting a teacher to see the light?  Attacking them for being a teacher, or showing them through fact and reason that the curriculum they are teaching and the government programs they are carrying out, have created a bunch of drones who understand very little of the principles upon which this country was founded?  I am guessing, the latter.


You fail to grasp that teachers, by and large, WANT kids to become little drones who understand very little of the principles upon which this country was founded.  Their paychecks depend upon it.

----------


## acptulsa

> You fail to grasp that teachers, by and large, WANT kids to become little drones who understand very little of the principles upon which this country was founded.  Their paychecks depend upon it.


By and large.  You want to be stuffed into a category because others who share some demographic traits with you are, by and large, this or that?

Damn, people.  Are we a bunch of collectivists?  Or are we individuals committed to the rights of individuals?

I think that people are individuals, myself--by and large...




> *Obama is the Messiah, that's what.*


By and large, you're probably right.  By and large, these are not the ones I admire.

----------


## JK/SEA

> You fail to grasp that teachers, by and large, WANT kids to become little drones who understand very little of the principles upon which this country was founded.  Their paychecks depend upon it.


YEA..and BY AND LARGE anyone wearing a turban is a terrorist, right.?

----------


## bossman068410

> No one threw that person out.  That person walked out on their own.  When you bring someone to this forum, it is up to you to work that relationship.  I have not had one single person I know get turned off by the way I deliver the  message.  That being said, I won't bring people to this forum.  No one I know posts here.  Most people are not going to be as activist as I am and I am ok with that.  It doesn't take a majority to change this country.  I am sure that many people I talk to would find something to turn them off in this forum.  Those people aren't the hardcore support.   They won't challenge authority until the movement challenges as a whole.


2 speakers, and about 5 members either trashed or made fun of teachers or the NEA.  She was pretty good about the whole thing.  She did talk to the other teachers about the fed and how they are protected BY law from an audit.  She also talked about how the "system" of influencing officials and how she did like Ron Paul and the Judges speech.

Has anyone knowtice that Ron Paul trys NOT to talk about the individual unless he has to and NOT to insult them but to argue with Knowlege and Wisdom?

Ty everyone for the heated disscussion. I really wanted to get this out.

----------


## newbitech

[quote=Justinjj1;2054869]


> It is incumbent upon every individual to learn the founding of this country, learn the Declaration of Independence and Constitution--memorize them!  
> 
> Know why founders feared standing armies and centralized bankers--this is key.
> 
> They are not teaching this in public schools!
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> ...


I call BS right there. 

I doubt you are teaching about fearing standing armies and centralized bankers.  You might be hitting those points in a broader perspective, but the message is not getting thru if you still have your job and if your city or town is still funding your school. 

Sorry to doubt you on this cause I don't know you, but you'll have a very hard time with this argument without some evidence.

----------


## Justinjj1

> You fail to grasp that teachers, by and large, WANT kids to become little drones who understand very little of the principles upon which this country was founded.  Their paychecks depend upon it.


LOL
The primary motivation behind teachers is to maintain their fat paychecks by creating mindless drones.  

This is the most idiotic thread I have ever read.

----------


## andrewh817

> They too have been INDOCTRINATED.
> How many cops and teachers are out there?
> You can open their minds to the system they are in.
> Don't you want people on the inside fighting the system?


Actually the only way for them to fight the system would be to resign from their jobs....

----------


## newbitech

> 2 speakers, and about 5 members either trashed or made fun of teachers or the NEA.  She was pretty good about the whole thing.  She did talk to the other teachers about the fed and how they are protected BY law from an audit.  She also talked about how the "system" of influencing officials and how she did like Ron Paul and the Judges speech.
> 
> Has anyone knowtice that Ron Paul trys NOT to talk about the individual unless he has to and NOT to insult them but to argue with Knowlege and Wisdom?
> 
> Ty everyone for the heated disscussion. I really wanted to get this out.



did you confront those people?  What exactly did the speakers say?  How about some fact like where, who, when.  etc.. have you contacted anyone about this issue in the leadership chain? It sounds like you are talking about the St. Louis regional.  

Also, your thread title is saying teachers and cops?  Why did you throw those two in together?  If you are concerned about the hostility in this movement, you shouldn't be surprised.  Take a look at what is happening in Europe.  No they might not be showing a good message or inline with our beliefs, but believe me, this movement is still in a passive mode.  The heat hasn't turned up here yet.

----------


## JK/SEA

> LOL
> The primary motivation behind teachers is to maintain their fat paychecks by creating mindless drones.  
> 
> This is the most idiotic thread I have ever read.


You guys that demonize teachers don't know what you're talking about.

And what makes this thread so idiotic is comments above in the quote box.

----------


## acptulsa

> Actually the only way for them to fight the system would be to resign from their jobs....


Hear that, Dr. Paul?  You aren't fighting the system by voting against everything with earmarks, everything wasteful, and everything unconstitutional.  Resign, come home, sit on your narrow ass in Lake Victoria and clean your guns, sir.  You are merely propigating the system and wasting your time and our hope for change.  Give it up and stop feeding the beast.

[/sarcasm]

----------


## newbitech

> LOL
> The primary motivation behind teachers is to maintain their fat paychecks by creating mindless drones.  
> 
> This is the most idiotic thread I have ever read.


fat paychecks? you misquote and thus muddle your rebuttal.   Ever here of FCAT?  Show me an FCAT test that comes close to mentioning standing armies and the implications thereof or the Federal Reserve and Central banking control over the people vis a vis a fiat currency backed by the hot air that politicians spew daily.  

I think you should check your motive in posting here, and maybe if you really do teach check your effectiveness in spreading anykind of liberty message to "your kids".

----------


## bossman068410

> did you confront those people?  What exactly did the speakers say?  How about some fact like where, who, when.  etc.. have you contacted anyone about this issue in the leadership chain? It sounds like you are talking about the St. Louis regional.  
> 
> Also, your thread title is saying teachers and cops?  Why did you throw those two in together?  If you are concerned about the hostility in this movement, you shouldn't be surprised.  Take a look at what is happening in Europe.  No they might not be showing a good message or inline with our beliefs, but believe me, this movement is still in a passive mode.  The heat hasn't turned up here yet.


That's why I posted here.  I wanted to get the feedback here first.  
I wanted to dicuss this.

Yes i do worry. It might be WAY to late to slowly bring people around.

Ty Newbitech  I do appreciate your opinion !!!!!

----------


## homah

> You fail to grasp that teachers, by and large, WANT kids to become little drones who understand very little of the principles upon which this country was founded.  Their paychecks depend upon it.


This is bull$#@!.  I have never met a single teacher who thought like this.  Perhaps some are unaware that parts of the books they are using are propaganda, but I have never heard of a teacher purposely misguiding his/her students.

----------


## newbitech

> You guys that demonize teachers don't know what you're talking about.
> 
> And what makes this thread so idiotic is comments above in the quote box.


teachers and cops demonize themselves, Liberty Lovers simply point it out.  

Main Entry:de·mon Variant(s)r dae·mon          \ˈdē-mən\     Function:_noun_ Etymology:Middle English _demon,_ from Late Latin & Latin; Late Latin _daemon_ evil spirit, from Latin, divinity, spirit, from Greek _daimōn,_ probably from _daiesthai_ to distribute       more at tideDate:13th century   1 a*:* an evil spirit b*:* *a source or agent of evil, harm, distress, or ruin*2_usually daemon_ *:* *an attendant power* or spirit *:* genius3_usually daemon_ *:* a supernatural being of Greek mythology intermediate between gods and men4*:* *one that has exceptional enthusiasm, drive, or effectiveness* <a _demon_ for work>


Which part of that definition do you disagree with?  And how does anyone here have anyway to turn a teacher into THAT type of teacher?

----------


## Justinjj1

> You guys that demonize teachers don't know what you're talking about.
> 
> And what makes this thread so idiotic is comments above in the quote box.



my above quote was sarcasm in case you didn't notice.

----------


## newbitech

> That's why I posted here.  I wanted to get the feedback here first.  
> I wanted to dicuss this.
> 
> Yes i do worry. It might be WAY to late to slowly bring people around.
> 
> Ty Newbitech  I do appreciate your opinion !!!!!



Alright, well this subject fired me up a little.  I hope that you will confront this issue locally and report back the results.  In the future, please have the confidence to nip these types of issues in the bud so they don't grow even if I and others think your concerns are unfounded.

----------


## Minarchy4Sale

> kill all the cops and teachers. ok, now what?


Actually, I was mostly just thinking of firing them.  Cops can go eat donuts and guard malls and Public school teachers will find work in new private schools or do something new.

----------


## homah

> teachers and cops demonize themselves, Liberty Lovers simply point it out.  
> 
> Main Entry:de·mon Variant(s)r dae·mon          \ˈdē-mən\     Function:_noun_ Etymology:Middle English _demon,_ from Late Latin & Latin; Late Latin _daemon_ evil spirit, from Latin, divinity, spirit, from Greek _daimōn,_ probably from _daiesthai_ to distribute      — more at tideDate:13th century   1 a*:* an evil spirit b*:* *a source or agent of evil, harm, distress, or ruin*2_usually daemon_ *:* *an attendant power* or spirit *:* genius3_usually daemon_ *:* a supernatural being of Greek mythology intermediate between gods and men4*:* *one that has exceptional enthusiasm, drive, or effectiveness* <a _demon_ for work>
> 
> 
> Which part of that definition do you disagree with?  And how does anyone here have anyway to turn a teacher into THAT type of teacher?


Demonize doesn't mean the same thing as demon.  One meaning of demonize is "to represent as evil or diabolic."

----------


## pcosmar

> LOL
> The primary motivation behind teachers is to maintain their fat paychecks by creating mindless drones.  
> 
> This is the most idiotic thread I have ever read.


No it is not. Public schools teach conformity. It is not the building that teaches this. The "system" does not interact with children. Teachers do.

How many teachers are teaching kids to question authority?  How many teach the the Police *ARE NOT* your friend?
How many teach what is expressed in my sig line.???

----------


## Justinjj1

> fat paychecks? you misquote and thus muddle your rebuttal.   Ever here of FCAT?  Show me an FCAT test that comes close to mentioning standing armies and the implications thereof or the Federal Reserve and Central banking control over the people vis a vis a fiat currency backed by the hot air that politicians spew daily.  
> 
> I think you should check your motive in posting here, and maybe if you really do teach check your effectiveness in spreading anykind of liberty message to "your kids".


I have a sticker on my door at school that says "The Federal Reserve: Looting the U.S Since 1913".  I have shown "America: Freedom to Fascism" to my class, we have discussed in depth the founding fathers distrust of standing armies and Jackson's war with bank.

----------


## homah

> No it is not. Public schools teach conformity. It is not the building that teaches this. The "system" does not interact with children. Teachers do.
> 
> How many teachers are teaching kids to question authority?  How many teach the the Police *ARE NOT* your friend?
> How many teach what is expressed in my sig line.???


I don't know of any teachers who say not to question authority or that police are your friend.

Perhaps we should bring back civics classes so that people are more aware of their rights.  Then, they can decide for themselves whether individual authority figures are good or bad.

----------


## bossman068410

> i have a sticker on my door at school that says "the federal reserve: Looting the u.s since 1913".  I have shown "america: Freedom to fascism" to my class, we have discussed in depth the founding fathers distrust of standing armies and jackson's war with bank.


awesome

thank you !!!

----------


## newbitech

> Demonize doesn't mean the same thing as demon.  One meaning of demonize is "to represent as evil or diabolic."


and the other two definitions are


To turn into or as if into a demon.To possess by or as if by a demon.
So you are basically saying that we are putting out propaganda.  I agree we are in a war.  But I completely disagree that we are running the propaganda machine.  You might want to take a look at the curriculum and what is required by the state of teachers and schools to see who is running the propaganda.   Public school teachers thru the state curriculum simply prepare young minds to by highly susceptible to the propaganda.  Thus it is the teachers and the state who seek to demonize (in you  understanding of the word), third parties and constitutional principles.   Including Ron Paul and his supporters, which apparently included you and I.

----------


## homah

> and the other two definitions are
> 
> 
> To turn into or as if into a demon.To possess by or as if by a demon.
> So you are basically saying that we are putting out propaganda.  I agree we are in a war.  But I completely disagree that we are running the propaganda machine.  You might want to take a look at the curriculum and what is required by the state of teachers and schools to see who is running the propaganda.   Public school teachers thru the state curriculum simply prepare young minds to by highly susceptible to the propaganda.  Thus it is the teachers and the state who seek to demonize (in you  understanding of the word), third parties and constitutional principles.   Including Ron Paul and his supporters, which apparently included you and I.


I must have misunderstood your prior post.  I was simply just trying to clarify what another poster meant by his usage of the word demonize.

----------


## newbitech

> I have a sticker on my door at school that says "The Federal Reserve: Looting the U.S Since 1913".  I have shown "America: Freedom to Fascism" to my class, we have discussed in depth the founding fathers distrust of standing armies and Jackson's war with bank.


tell us more, has anyone at your school mentioned anything to you about the visibility of the sticker?  Such as the principle, other teachers, etc?  

Did you give a test about this movie to see what was retained?  Did you test the children and develop their knowledge on these issues?  Did you give them homework assignments related to this material to take home and study with their parents?  

I'd really like to know how you think having a sticker on your door, watching a movie, and having in debt (lol Freudian slip i suppose, i won't edit it for the lulz) discussions is influencing these kids.

----------


## newbitech

> I must have misunderstood your prior post.  I was simply just trying to clarify what another poster meant by his usage of the word demonize.



I know what he meant.  And I completely disagree.  That definition of the word is not applicable in this argument which is why I pointed it out.  Thank you tho, this debate wouldn't be nearly as heated if the public school system was effective in teaching communication skills.

----------


## Uncle Emanuel Watkins

> STOP Demonizing Teachers and Cops.
> 
> Let's go on the Ron Paul Blow back principal.
> 
> When at the Campaign for Liberty I brought a very smart history teacher with me.  I have opened her eyes to the bull$#@! between the whole REP & DEM Hypocrisy thing and she came with an open mind.  After several of the speakers trashed teachers then at the lunch a few of the members trashing teachers she closed her mind and had a bitter Taste about the whole thing.  Next time when you are speaking in public or to others think about how you turned away a potential supporter.
> 
> We need to focus ON THE SYSTEM not the INDIVIDUALS !!!!!!
> It is the system that keeps and maintains the Rotten Apples.
> It is the system that is Dumbing down our kids.
> ...


Tyranny is a responsible thing.  It is the family we flee back to any time our nation suffers an economic calamity.  It then recovers some of us while pimping the rest of us as permanent whores when it was all of us who were born so helpless in calamity that we deserved no better than to be prostituted.  Tyranny lathers itself up and makes a big show by pathetically giving to the pitiful.
Rather than pathetically giving away that which has been rightfully earned by the people, perhaps it would be better that government work at making someone feel less of a whore?  This only takes tolerance.

----------


## pcosmar

> I don't know of any teachers who say not to question authority or that police are your friend.
> 
> Perhaps we should bring back civics classes so that people are more aware of their rights.  Then, they can decide for themselves whether individual authority figures are good or bad.


OK, I guess I'm just full of $#@!. 
Lets do just a quick google search.

http://ci.champaign.il.us/news/weekl...oseph-schools/




> Police Department Updates
>     On October 5, 2007, Risk Watch presentations were conducted at Booker T. Washington Elementary School located at 606 E. Grove Street in Champaign. School Resource...
> Police Department Activities
>     On May 2, 2008, Risk Watch presentations were conducted at Booker T. Washington Elementary School in Champaign. School Resource Officers encouraged youth to make time...
> Risk Watch Presentations At Elementary Schools
>     Risk Watch presentations were conducted at Robeson, Westview and Southside Elementary Schools on November 20, 24 and 25, 2008. The Risk Watch team provided curriculum...
> Patrol Officer Participates in “I Love to Read Day”
>     A Patrol Officer participated in Kenwood Elementary School’s annual “I Love to Read Day” on March 6. The Officer read one of his favorite children’s...
> Police Department Activities
> ...


http://arvada.org/about-arvada/polic...arvada-schools




> “The relationship between the police department and the school community is critical,” said Police Chief Don Wick. “It’s important students and parents know that the police department is involved with their school, and remains committed to school safety.”


http://www.sacbee.com/latest/story/1731033.html



> Rancho Cordova police officers will be spending lunchtime with local elementary school students as part of a new program intended to bolster students' good behavior and increase campus safety.
> 
> Police officers and Sacramento County sheriff's deputies assigned to the sheriff's east division will be "adopting" 23 elementary schools and spending time with students, a police news release states.


http://www.app.com/article/20090319/...23/1004/NEWS01



> "A little extra something for the kids, to reward them," he said.
> 
> The State Police introduced Top Physical Challenge three years ago,* as a way to introduce students to law enforcement,* Muse said. Schools that participate in the program choose their most physically fit students to show off their sit-up, push-up, pull-up, broad jump and shuttle-run skills.


 Now I could probably fill up pages with this.
Can you spell *Indoctrination*???

----------


## constituent

> I'm pretty sure these problems have been around awhile, and until you can come up with a better plan, besides homeschooling, or brain transplants, i'm pretty sure this will continue to be a problem.


Stop teaching reeeding, riting and 'rithmatick to kids that should be learnin' to swing a hammer.

There, problem solved.

----------


## JK/SEA

> Actually, I was mostly just thinking of firing them.  Cops can go eat donuts and guard malls and Public school teachers will find work in new private schools or do something new.


Well its clear you don't have a grasp on how educating kids works, and whats really happening. Perhaps you should try and get a teaching degree, then comeback in 4 year to 5 years and tell everyone what YOU learned.

----------


## homah

> Stop teaching reeeding, riting and 'rithmatic to kids that should be learnin' to swing a hammer.
> 
> Problem solved.


I agree with this.  Kids should be presented with more options and not looked upon as failures if they aren't "college bound."  A lot of teachers agree with this as well.

----------


## JK/SEA

> Stop teaching reeeding, riting and 'rithmatick to kids that should be learnin' to swing a hammer.
> 
> There, problem solved.


??

i read a lot on blaming teachers in this thread. Is it really the teachers?..can we lay blame on anything else?

lets hear the plan. What have we got?...come on, i'm waiting.

thought so.

----------


## acptulsa

> *Expect a visit soon from your local NEA rep.*





> Can you spell *Indoctrination*???


Who's denying that the system sucks?  Can't even say that's painting with too broad a brush, thanks to the Carter/Reagan Department of Education...

----------


## constituent

> I ask again--yes they are feeding the system, but _what_ are they feeding it?


legitimacy.

but hey, maybe if they persevere long enough and are lucky enough, pres. obama will put them on a stage and shower them with adoration for a "tireless job well done."

nationally televised and all that.

----------


## JK/SEA

> LMFAO!! classic!


i'm going to guess all you teacher critics couldn't get a teaching degree. Its easier to bitch ain't it?

----------


## acptulsa

> legitimacy.


Their legitimacy is buoyed by the cogs in the machine?  I think not.

----------


## donnay

> i'm going to guess all you teacher critics couldn't get a teaching degree. Its easier to bitch ain't it?



My mother worked for the school system for 32 years and she is the biggest advocate for home schooling.  And there is plenty of her colleagues who are with her.  They know the take-over that happened in the 60s.

An education is not a right, it is a privilege and why should we citizens, at the barrel of a gun be forced to pay for it?

----------


## constituent

> ??
> 
> i read a lot on blaming teachers in this thread. Is it really the teachers?..can we lay blame on anything else?
> 
> lets hear the plan. What have we got?...come on, i'm waiting.
> 
> thought so.


Where did I blame teachers?(sorry read "demonize" discussion earlier in the thread... end edit)


Also, I just provided you with the solution, you're just too angry to see it.  

The entire system is broken beyond repair because of the intentions behind its design.  The birth of the "public" "school" *system* is the ultimate tale of American corruption and systemic malevolence disguised as charity.  The machine was programmed entirely to destroy individual identity and various cultural influences/identities that ran counter to the "happy worker" agenda of Rockefeller, et. al.

Stop teaching reeeding, riting and 'rhitmatic to kids that should be learning to swing a hammer.

Problem solved.

----------


## constituent

> Their legitimacy is buoyed by the cogs in the machine?  I think not.


do what?

----------


## Deborah K

Here's my thinking on all of this.  And I'm going to use a *radical* example as an illustration to make my point: Take a child from the gaza, who's been indoctrinated into hating and killing, and he lives his whole life _believing_ in hating and killing.  How do you de-programme someone like that?  And don't say it can't be done, because it's _been_ done. 

I'm pretty sure you DON'T do it by demoralizing him.  That teacher was demoralized when she went in with an open mind and got lambasted (indirectly) for being a teacher.  If you don't like the current situation with our school systems then do something about it.  Attacking teachers who think they are doing the right thing because they themselves have been indoctrinated, is as stupid as attacking a gaza kid for what he has been indoctrinated into.

----------


## JK/SEA

> My mother worked for the school system for 32 years and she is the biggest advocate for home schooling.  And there is plenty of her colleagues who are with her.  They know the take-over that happened in the 60s.
> 
> An education is not a right, it is a privilege and why should we citizens, at the barrel of a gun be forced to pay for it?


Is homeschooling the 'be all' answer to this debate? I don't think so. 

If anyone has a better answer or idea or plan, lets hear it.

----------


## constituent

> An education is not a right, it is a privilege and why should we citizens, at the barrel of a gun *(and eternal threat of property confiscation)* be forced to pay for it?


edit in bold

----------


## pcosmar

> Here's my thinking on all of this.  And I'm going to use a *radical* example as an illustration to make my point: Take a child from the gaza, who's been indoctrinated into hating and killing, and he lives his whole life _believing_ in hating and killing.  How do you de-programme someone like that?  And don't say it can't be done, because it's _been_ done.


You don't.  Arm him and teach him tactics.
While you're at it teach the kid in Jerusalem.
They both have the same enemy, they just don't know it. Their enemy has them fighting each other.
Their enemy is my enemy. Those here are just too pacified to fight.

----------


## JK/SEA

> edit in bold


OK. Got it.

Now, how do we educate people. Or is it our problem? 

hypothetical..

Public schools eliminated... so we have ...

homeschooling?..check. Not for everybody.
Wealthy people, private schools. check.. Not for everybody.

everyone else?..sorry, grab a hammer and goodluck.

----------


## newbitech

> Is homeschooling the 'be all' answer to this debate? I don't think so. 
> 
> If anyone has a better answer or idea or plan, lets hear it.



first of all, teacher need to stop being the victim.  Too often I hear of teachers complain about the symptoms of the problem.  Lack of funding, too many students in the class, undisciplined children.

I think a great place to start is the PTA and PTSA.  I don't think the system as it stands can be  repaired.  But, if there is to be any progress it must come from governing bodies.  Teachers need to engage the parents more effectively.  Teachers need to get together and work as a coalition and voting block or join a voting block like the freedom movement.  

Teachers need to effect change locally and at the state levels.  Joining national groups is not working.

----------


## Kraig

> Here's my thinking on all of this.  And I'm going to use a *radical* example as an illustration to make my point: Take a child from the gaza, who's been indoctrinated into hating and killing, and he lives his whole life _believing_ in hating and killing.  How do you de-programme someone like that?  And don't say it can't be done, because it's _been_ done. 
> 
> I'm pretty sure you DON'T do it by demoralizing him.  That teacher was demoralized when she went in with an open mind and got lambasted (indirectly) for being a teacher.  If you don't like the current situation with our school systems then do something about it.  Attacking teachers who think they are doing the right thing because they themselves have been indoctrinated, is as stupid as attacking a gaza kid for what he has been indoctrinated into.


If they're killing Israeli soldiers they have the moral high ground, easily over cops and teachers here.  I don't think that happens in Gaza often though, it's pretty much the children getting killed.  Anyways the first step to de-program him would be to get him the hell out of that violent concentration camp so he can see what it is like to live in a more rational and free society.  Teachers and cops don't have that excuse though, despite our oppressive government they still have 100% freedom to switch jobs.  Really though, playing the ignorant card for an EDUCATOR is just really sad to me, their job is supposed reduce ignorance and they can't even do it for their own mind, let alone the minds of others.  I think many teachers AND cops just take the job because it is easy.

Personally if someone said my entire profession was full of scumbags and they gave me a couple reasons to back it up, I would listen to them and look into it.  After looking into it I would probably get the hell out.

----------


## acptulsa

Step one is to get rid of the Department of Education and step two is to get on your local school board.

Throwing all the teachers, good and bad together, out the door is way, way down my list.  Sorry.

People are individuals and teachers are there for many, many different reasons.  Some are paving their road to hell with good intentions, others, yes, were hell-bound from the start.

Can't we find more productive things to discuss?




> Personally if someone said my entire profession was full of scumbags and they gave me a couple reasons to back it up, I would listen to them and look into it.  After looking into it I would probably get the hell out.


Dr. Paul, your profession is full of scumbags.  Get the hell out.  [/sarcasm]

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> i'm going to guess all you teacher critics couldn't get a teaching degree. Its easier to bitch ain't it?


I wouldn't want one.  I don't have the desire to be part of your corrupt little "system".  If I wanted to teach, I would call myself a "tutor" and place an ad in the paper.

----------


## pcosmar

> OK. Got it.
> 
> Now, how do we educate people. Or is it our problem? 
> 
> hypothetical..
> 
> Public schools eliminated... so we have ...
> 
> homeschooling?..check. Not for everybody.
> ...


Yup, My high school  education has done nothing for me.
But learning to knock dents out of cars has paid for my farm and land. 
Useful skills should not be underestimated.

----------


## Minarchy4Sale

> Well its clear you don't have a grasp on how educating kids works, and whats really happening. Perhaps you should try and get a teaching degree, then comeback in 4 year to 5 years and tell everyone what YOU learned.


You just had to go there. 

Okay.  I have a professional doctorate.  It is pretty much common knowledge that 'education' programs as a course of study are about as intellectually challenging as underwater basketweaving or 'marketing'.

----------


## JK/SEA

> Dude, please dont go there...


Well, i'm sorry, but bitching is all i'm hearing. Nothing in the way of solutions. Just black and white rhetoric  that gets no where, except alienating a group, and makes one 'feel' they are somehow possesed with an answer. Feels good, but really is pointless.

Whats your plan?

----------


## constituent

> OK. Got it.
> 
> Now, how do we educate people. Or is it our problem? 
> 
> hypothetical..
> 
> Public schools eliminated... so we have ...
> 
> homeschooling?..check. Not for everybody.
> ...



Start here unless you're ready to shell out for a lesson or two.

(additionally, and in answer to your first question in the post quoted above, no it is not _our_ problem)

----------


## Kraig

> Step one is to get rid of the Department of Education and step two is to get on your local school board.
> 
> Throwing all the teachers, good and bad together, out the door is way, way down my list.  Sorry.
> 
> People are individuals and teachers are there for many, many different reasons.  Some are paving their road to hell with good intentions, others, yes, were hell-bound from the start.
> 
> Can't we find more productive things to discuss?


No step 2 is privatizing the schools and then getting on the board for the school your kids go to.  Realistically though, step one is homeschooling your kids or send them to a good private school, and watch the public school system go to hell.  It's a failed and dying system.

----------


## constituent

> Whats your plan?


What is yours?

That is really what is at issue here.

----------


## Kraig

> Dr. Paul, your profession is full of scumbags.  Get the hell out.  [/sarcasm]


See that right there defeats your whole argument, if you said this to him, he wouldn't get offended, he would agree with you.  Why do you think he has the "Don't steal, government doesn't like competition" sign on his desk? OMG Ron Paul is collectively singling out everyone in government with that sign!

----------


## LibertyEagle

> See that right there defeats your whole argument, if you said this to him, he wouldn't get offended, he would agree with you.  Why do you think he has the "Don't steal, government doesn't like competition" sign on his desk?


Yes, but not everyone is as far along as Dr. Paul, right?  Again, why drive someone away by insulting them, when instead you can give them the information that they are lacking?

----------


## Minarchy4Sale

> Well, i'm sorry, but bitching is all i'm hearing. Nothing in the way of solutions. Just black and white rhetoric  that gets no where, except alienating a group, and makes one 'feel' they are somehow possesed with an answer. Feels good, but really is pointless.
> 
> Whats your plan?


If we have to have universal tax funded education.??  Fine.  Privatize the delivery systems.  The state gives funding for each kid per year X number of dolars.  Force schools to compete for students.  Parents will choose the schools that they feel provide the best opportunities for their kids.  Good teachers will make more, bad teachers will make less or leave the field.  Rich kids will pay for better schools, poor kids will still get the best that is available on a budget.  

No more NEA, no more 50% administrative overhead, no more wasting time on teaching kids to be communists... (although the rich schools might for a while).

----------


## Kraig

> Yes, but not everyone is as far along as Dr. Paul, right?  Again, why drive someone away by insulting them, when instead you can give them the information that they are lacking?


The information they are lacking is that they are in a profession of scumbags.

----------


## Kraig

> If we have to have universal tax funded education.??  Fine.  Privatize the delivery systems.  The state gives funding for each kid per year X number of dolars.  Force schools to compete for students.  Parents will choose the schools that they feel provide the best opportunities for their kids.  Good teachers will make more, bad teachers will make less or leave the field.  Rich kids will pay for better schools, poor kids will still get the best that is available on a budget.  
> 
> No more NEA, no more 50% administrative overhead, no more wasting time on teaching kids to be communists... (although the rich schools might for a while).


$#@! making me or anyone else pay for your kids education.  The state does not give any money that they do not take from me or someone else.  Stop promoting this theft.  You don't have to force schools to do anything either, take away the tax funding and they have to compete for customers.

----------


## Justinjj1

> tell us more, has anyone at your school mentioned anything to you about the visibility of the sticker?  Such as the principle, other teachers, etc?  
> 
> Did you give a test about this movie to see what was retained?  Did you test the children and develop their knowledge on these issues?  Did you give them homework assignments related to this material to take home and study with their parents?  
> 
> I'd really like to know how you think having a sticker on your door, watching a movie, and having in debt (lol Freudian slip i suppose, i won't edit it for the lulz) discussions is influencing these kids.



Those are just a few examples out of many and of course I check for understanding through assignments and tests.

----------


## Minarchy4Sale

> $#@! making me or anyone else pay for your kids education.  The state does not give any money that they do not take from me or someone else.  Stop promoting this theft.  You don't have to force schools to do anything either, take away the tax funding and they have to compete for customers.


The guy asked for a solution assuming universal delivery.  You cant have universal delivery of any good without socializing at least some of the costs.  Given those parameters, IMO, I have described the system that maximizes efficiency, and minimizes the potential for bureaucracies and teacher communism..

I never said I advocate public funding of education, but I think you'd be hard pressed to convince even 10% of people to turn that switch back... ever.  Given that limitation, I think privatizing the schools themselves is about as far as can be accomplished, at least in my lifetime.

----------


## NYgs23

Well, I'm a (substitute) teacher looking for a full time job. I substitute all around my public school district. Yet I consider myself a market anarchist.

It's not the fault of the teachers that the State has monopolized the education sector to such an extent that it's difficult to get a teaching job not in a public school, especially one that pays well. Must I handicap myself by limiting my job opportunities when the job in the public school would be occupied by someone else anyway? Do you all refuse to drive on the government's roads, pay for services with the government's dollars, or call on the government's emergency services?

----------


## Kraig

> The guy asked for a solution assuming universal delivery.  You cant have universal delivery of any good without socializing at least some of the costs.  Given those parameters, IMO, I have described the system that maximizes the efficiency.
> 
> I never said I advocate public funding of education, but I think you'd be hard pressed to convince even 10% of people to turn that switch back... ever.  Given that limitation, I think privatizing the schools themselves is about as far as can be accomplished, at least in my lifetime.


You think I care about how many I can convince?  It's MY money!  It's MY labor!  I do NOT want the government to spend it on schools.  Period.  Universal delivery is NOT needed or even good.  Stop using everyone else as an excuse and take responsibility for what you are recommending.  You never said you advocate public funding, you just wrote up a little blurb of how it should be done, that doesn't make any sense.

----------


## constituent

> Do you all refuse to drive on the government's roads, pay for services with the government's dollars, or call on the government's emergency services?


Wow, "the government's" you say?

Do "we" not pay out of pocket for the services listed above?

----------


## Kraig

> Well, I'm a (substitute) teacher looking for a full time job. I substitute all around my public school district. Yet I consider myself a market anarchist.
> 
> It's not the fault of the teachers that the State has monopolized the education sector to such an extent that it's difficult to get a teaching job not in a public school, especially one that pays well. Must I handicap myself by limiting my job opportunities when the job in the public school would be occupied by someone else anyway? Do you all refuse to drive on the government's roads, pay for services with the government's dollars, or call on the government's emergency services?


Absolutely whenever possible.  Not taking a government job was the easy part.

----------


## JK/SEA

> What is yours?
> 
> That is really what is at issue here.


My wife is 4th grade teacher, and i see and hear things most have no clue about. Being somewhat in the loop is helpful into my base knowledge, rather than being an outsider who just hears snipets of things that have no relevance. 

Homeschooling is a good idea, but not the entire answer on how one gains an education.

----------


## newbitech

> My wife is 4th grade teacher, and i see and hear things most have no clue about. Being somewhat in the loop is helpful into my base knowledge, rather than being an outsider who just hears snipets of things that have no relevance. 
> 
> Homeschooling is a good idea, but not the entire answer on how one gains an education.



Why don't we just teach kids how to surf the net properly?  Teach them how to properly source information.  Teach them how to discern truth from commercials.

Then tell them to go play.

----------


## constituent

> My wife is 4th grade teacher, and i see and hear things most have no clue about. Being somewhat in the loop is helpful into my base knowledge, rather than being an outsider who just hears snipets of things that have no relevance.


I dated a fourth grade teacher for years, her mother was a fourth grade teacher... i'm pretty "in the loop."  I also attended public schools, so i'm not exactly an "outsider" either. 




> Homeschooling is a good idea, but not the entire answer on how one gains an education.


So then continued extortion of money, property, etc. from others to pay for your wife's salary, all so almost no one gets educated, is your answer?


I think you need to check your priorities.

----------


## Truth Warrior

*Public-School Outrages by Anthony Gregory*

*What If Public Schools Were Abolished? by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.*

----------


## NYgs23

> Wow, "the government's" you say?
> 
> Do "we" not pay out of pocket for the services listed above?


They as much "the government's" as the schools are.

----------


## donnay

> Is homeschooling the 'be all' answer to this debate? I don't think so. 
> 
> If anyone has a better answer or idea or plan, lets hear it.


I have a solution--get the federal government out of EVERY aspect of our lives!

Fire the Department of Education.

Give the states back their authority and let the education be given back to the parents and communities!

Get the feds out of 'law enforcement' -- period!

----------


## NYgs23

> *Those other "services" ( so called ) are NOT "brainwashing" the next generation.*


I have yet to be ordered to perform any action that would require "brainwashing the next generation."

----------


## Minarchy4Sale

> You think I care about how many I can convince?  It's MY money!  It's MY labor!  I do NOT want the government to spend it on schools.  Period.  Universal delivery is NOT needed or even good.  Stop using everyone else as an excuse and take responsibility for what you are recommending.  You never said you advocate public funding, you just wrote up a little blurb of how it should be done, that doesn't make any sense.


I agree that universal delivery isnt necessary or even good.  That being said, you have to live in the real world.  When 90% (probably 98%) of society is behind an idea, and willing to kill you to enforce it, you can choose to fight and die (or waste your time) or find a way to maximize liberty in the short run with the hope that you can convince them later to see the error of their ways.

Private schools with public funding can be done in our lifetime.  Destruction of public funding of schools will not happen short of a complete breakdown of society.

----------


## JK/SEA

My idea is to just give a kid some books, a gas lantern for light and tell them good luck. 
Abe Lincoln did it this way....HAH!

I haven't read any solutions that are based in reality yet. How do you go about educating children in today's society?

still waiting for a cogent and lucid answer.

----------


## Dr.3D

> I have yet to be ordered to perform any action that would require "brainwashing the next generation."


At least not that *you* would recognize as "brainwashing".

Have you ever had your class stand to perform the pledge of allegiance to the flag?

----------


## constituent

> My idea is to just give a kid some books, a gas lantern for light and tell them good luck. 
> Abe Lincoln did it this way....HAH!


I take this as an admission to the error of your ways.

----------


## Minarchy4Sale

> My idea is to just give a kid some books, a gas lantern for light and tell them good luck. 
> Abe Lincoln did it this way....HAH!


There is something to be said for that, actually.  I have no doubt that if taught to read and provided with books, the only real instruction I would have needed would have been math.  The rest I could have done on my own.

Also, real work is great education.  Most of the reason that kids in modern society are idiots is due to the fact that when they arent in the classroom they are acting like $#@!ing monkeys or in front of the idiot box.  Why not bring back apprenticeships?

----------


## donnay

> My idea is to just give a kid some books, a gas lantern for light and tell them good luck. 
> Abe Lincoln did it this way....HAH!


Most self-educated people have contributed a great deal to society.

My husband is a 10th grade drop out.  He has an IQ of 141.  Edit to add:  In addition to being self-educated he has many skills.  Lots of children, unfortunately, do not have skills coming out of public education, anymore.

I went all the way to college and I can tell you that I have learned more out of the system then I ever learned inside the system.

----------


## rockandrollsouls

> STOP Demonizing Teachers and Cops.
> 
> Let's go on the Ron Paul Blow back principal.
> 
> When at the Campaign for Liberty I brought a very smart history teacher with me.  I have opened her eyes to the bull$#@! between the whole REP & DEM Hypocrisy thing and she came with an open mind.  After several of the speakers trashed teachers then at the lunch a few of the members trashing teachers she closed her mind and had a bitter Taste about the whole thing.  Next time when you are speaking in public or to others think about how you turned away a potential supporter.
> 
> We need to focus ON THE SYSTEM not the INDIVIDUALS !!!!!!
> It is the system that keeps and maintains the Rotten Apples.
> It is the system that is Dumbing down our kids.
> ...


Get lost. I don't demonize teachers or cops, nor do I lump them in one group and make generalizations but I can understand why people here have gripes with them and I think it's perfectly justified, so don't tell me or anyone else how to think.

----------


## constituent

> Also, real work is great education.  Most of the reason that kids in modern society are idiots is due to the fact that when they arent in the classroom they are acting like $#@!ing monkeys or in front of the idiot box.  Why not bring back apprenticeships?


You mean actually teach someone something?

But then they might get ahead in life...  What good is that for the collective?

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Wow, "the government's" you say?
> 
> Do "we" not pay out of pocket for the services listed above?


Yeah, I was kinda thinking that they were OUR damn roads.  We paid for them!

----------


## Truth Warrior

> I have yet to be ordered to perform any action that would require "brainwashing the next generation."


 *Of course you haven't the lame standardized "dumbed down" curriculum does the job for you.  Remedial reading in high school, gimme a frickin' break.*

----------


## LibertyEagle

> The information they are lacking is that they are in a profession of scumbags.


I disagree.  Do you think the same of teachers in private schools?  How about homeschoolers?  Or, how about yourself, because if you have ever discussed what is going on with our government with someone else, you have been in a teaching capacity.

It's not the profession; it's the government indoctrination that is imposed on public schools, teachers and our kids.

----------


## Kraig

> I agree that universal delivery isnt necessary or even good.  That being said, you have to live in the real world.  When 90% (probably 98%) of society is behind an idea, and willing to kill you to enforce it, you can choose to fight and die (or waste your time) or find a way to maximize liberty in the short run with the hope that you can convince them later to see the error of their ways.
> 
> Private schools with public funding can be done in our lifetime.  Destruction of public funding of schools will not happen short of a complete breakdown of society.


Private schools with public funding are still public schools.  I makes no difference to me if your idea makes them better or more efficient, I am still paying for something I never want to use.  If I am never going to use it, why would I care if it is improved?

----------


## Kraig

> I disagree.  Do you think the same of teachers in private schools?  How about homeschoolers?  Or, how about yourself, because if you have ever discussed what is going on with our government with someone else, you have been in a teaching capacity.
> 
> It's not the profession; it's the government indoctrination that is imposed on public schools, teachers and our kids.


Sorry, by profession I was referring to public school teachers, not teachers in general.  For the most part I think they either stay in either the public or private sector, I have not heard of many teachers that switch back and forth, and the public teaching jobs are FAR easier to get.

----------


## Uncle Emanuel Watkins

> $#@! off. I don't demonize teachers or cops, nor do I lump them in one group and make generalizations but I can understand why people here have gripes with them and I think it's perfectly justified, so don't tell me or anyone else how to think.


If someone is born a midget and chooses to exploit the part in a circus, then they should be laughed at and belittled.  To the contrary, if someone is born a man amongst boys and chooses to play the part of their servant, all for their betterment, then they should be respected.
Teaching is what it is today because Socrates, the founder of Western Civilization, considered the possibility of helping a slave's mind recollect  by his serving it as a midwife philosopher (a serving teacher).
Without Socrates defining teaching in such a way, Civilization would have never been able to afford itself because no amount of money would have been sufficient to pay teachers what they deserve.

----------


## Minarchy4Sale

> Private schools with public funding are still public schools.  I makes no difference to me if your idea makes them better or more efficient, I am still paying for something I never want to use.  If I am never going to use it, why would I care if it is improved?


because it will turn out better thinkers who are less likely to be sheep and more likely to listen to you.

----------


## acptulsa

> The information they are lacking is that they are in a profession of scumbags.


And the point you are missing is *just because he's in a profession of scumbags doesn't mean he's a scumbag.*

Now, if he can avoid being a scumbag in Washington, Dastardly Cesspool, then why can't someone avoid being a scumbag in a public school?  And if they do, do they deserve to be demonized, or given a freaking medal?

Individuals are individual individuals, and as soon as you start painting with a broad brush you're no better than the Missouri Information Analysis Center.

----------


## Truth Warrior

*About 20 years ago ~70% of the nation was functionally illiterate AND "government schooled".*

----------


## NYgs23

> people like you frighten me.  fortunately, you seem to be highly concentrated in NY, just please don't both venturing out too much.


What are you talking about? The roads are "owned" by the govt in the same sense that the schools are, are they not? Maybe you don't think either is owned by the govt, but the point is that they are equivalent services monoplized by the govt. Some of you have said it's different with the roads because we paid for them. But you also paid for the schools. Perhaps all libertarian govt road workers should quit and let the roads fill with potholes.

----------


## Kraig

> If someone is born a midget and chooses to exploit the part in a circus, then they should be laughed at and belittled.  To the contrary, if someone is born a man amongst boys and chooses to play the part of their servant, all for their betterment, then they should be respected.
> Teaching is what it is today because Socrates, the founder of Western Civilization, considered the possibility of helping a slave's mind recollect  by his serving it as a midwife philosopher (a serving teacher).
> Without Socrates defining teaching in such a way, Civilization would have never been able to afford itself because no amount of money would have been sufficient to pay teachers what they deserve.


Socrates did not understand how free market prices are determined.  Something is not worth some obscure or mystical value.

----------


## constituent

> because it will turn out better thinkers who are less likely to be sheep and more likely to listen to you.


which is why i disagree w/ minarchy.


imo, the best way to teach a student about life is through the living.  

the current system is fail, let them learn this firsthand.  let the rotten fruits be born before their eyes.

----------


## NYgs23

> Have you ever had your class stand to perform the pledge of allegiance to the flag?


No, I haven't. I will admit I stand there like an idiot, but do you even think I'd bother to yell at 25 teenagers to stand? I have better things to worry about.

----------


## Uncle Emanuel Watkins

> Sorry, by profession I was referring to public school teachers, not teachers in general.  For the most part I think they either stay in either the public or private sector, I have not heard of many teachers that switch back and forth, and the public teaching jobs are FAR easier to get.


Socrates was the public teacher serving the slave's mind as a midwife philosopher.  It was Aristotle who chose to return to private teaching when he taught Alexander the Great not as a serving teacher but as his trainer.  Such teachers always existed prior to Socrates in that they were needed to train the children of the ruling elite so that they could one day take up their rightful positions as rulers.

----------


## acptulsa

> What are you talking about? The roads are "owned" by the govt in the same sense that the schools are, are they not? Maybe you don't think either is owned by the govt, but the point is that they are equivalent services monoplized by the govt. Some of you have said it's different with the roads because we paid for them. But you also paid for the schools. Perhaps all libertarian govt road workers should quit and let the roads fill with potholes.


This government of the people, by the people and for the people seems to have perished from the Earth...

*sigh*

I still say that doesn't mean everyone who works for the government has forgotten where they come from or who the whole goofy thing is _supposed_ to be for, and it doesn't mean that none of them are _trying._

Yes, kill the system.  But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Sorry, by profession I was referring to public school teachers, not teachers in general.  For the most part I think they either stay in either the public or private sector, I have not heard of many teachers that switch back and forth, and the public teaching jobs are FAR easier to get.


My only point Kraig, and of course you can take it or leave it, is that some of those teachers, and maybe only SOME, are upset at what they're seeing.  But, simply do not know enough to pinpoint what is really the problem.  Do you ever remember feeling like that yourself?  It is those people I think we can reach.  After all, what do we really gain by wholesale insulting an entire profession, besides a little momentary satisfaction?  We certainly don't forward the movement or make any converts.  It's only my opinion, but I truly think that we will win many more people over if we use persuasion, reason and facts.  

Maybe we're all just so damn frustrated at this point, that it's too hard to have patience with those who don't get it.

----------


## constituent

> What are you talking about? The roads are "owned" by the govt in the same sense that the schools are, are they not? Maybe you don't think either is owned by the govt, but the point is that they are equivalent services monoplized by the govt. Some of you have said it's different with the roads because we paid for them. But you also paid for the schools. Perhaps all libertarian govt road workers should quit and let the roads fill with potholes.


Strawman.  I'm well aware that "we" pay for the schools as well.

Nice try though.

----------


## Kraig

> And the point you are missing is *just because he's in a profession of scumbags doesn't mean he's a scumbag.*
> 
> Now, if he can avoid being a scumbag in Washington, Dastardly Cesspool, then why can't someone avoid being a scumbag in a public school?  And if they do, do they deserve to be demonized, or given a freaking medal?
> 
> Individuals are individual individuals, and as soon as you start painting with a broad brush you're no better than the Missouri Information Analysis Center.


You sure that's the point I'm missing?  Or is that just the point you THINK I am missing?  Or you want me to say something to make that clear to you?  Do you really think that I think Ron Paul is a scumbag?  Do you really think that I think my high school buddy turned cop is a scumbag?

----------


## NYgs23

> *Of course you haven't the lame standardized "dumbed down" curriculum does the job for you.  Remedial reading in high school, gimme a frickin' break.*


I didn't design the curriculum. The schools, the curriculum, the mandates, all these things are a reality right now. Would you rather have the schools staffed by decent thinking people or brainwashed drones? That doesn't seem fair to the students. At least I know enough to be against the mindless Pledge ritual, the tests, the textbooks, the mandatory unionism, the nonsensical rules. 

Would you rather have Ron Paul quit Congress along with the handful of other congressman who have a modicum of common sense once in while?

----------


## NYgs23

> This government of the people, by the people and for the people seems to have perished from the Earth...
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> I still say that doesn't mean everyone who works for the government has forgotten where they come from or who the whole goofy thing is _supposed_ to be for, and it doesn't mean that none of them are _trying._
> 
> Yes, kill the system.  But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


That's my point!

----------


## acptulsa

> You sure that's the point I'm missing?  Or is that just the point you THINK I am missing?  Or you want me to say something to make that clear to you?  Do you really think that I think Ron Paul is a scumbag?  Do you really think that I think my high school buddy turned cop is a scumbag?


Well, I don't know what to think.  You say that's the information they're missing, but you don't sound as if your friend is missing the information.  You make it sound like he's painfully aware of this information, gets reminded every day, and puts up with it at great personal pain and disgust because he wants the public to be served by _someone_ who is human.

And I say bravo.




> That's my point!


And to you I not only say bravo, but I got your back.  Thank you for trying to get the job done despite the fact that you have to fight the system tooth and nail to do it right.

----------


## Truth Warrior

*Close the Government Schools by Vin Suprynowicz*


*Public Education Fails by Charley Reese*

----------


## LibertyEagle

> What are you talking about? The roads are "owned" by the govt in the same sense that the schools are, are they not? Maybe you don't think either is owned by the govt, but the point is that they are equivalent services monoplized by the govt. Some of you have said it's different with the roads because we paid for them. But you also paid for the schools. Perhaps all libertarian govt road workers should quit and let the roads fill with potholes.


See, the thing is that the government itself owns nothing.  WE are supposed to own the government and thus everything that the government funded with our tax dollars.  

Now, about your statement about potholes.  Are you saying that the only way a pothole could be filled is if a government worker fills it?  Surely not.  

Are we just missing each other on semantics?

----------


## NYgs23

> Strawman.  I'm well aware that "we" pay for the schools as well.
> 
> Nice try though.


What's the strawman? The point is you use govt services. As long as the govt monopolizes those services, don't you want the run halfway decently? Would rather they be $#@!ty just to make a point???

----------


## Uncle Emanuel Watkins

> Socrates did not understand how free market prices are determined.  Something is not worth some obscure or mystical value.


No one understood the market like Socrates.  While the Sophists were charging money to answer questions asked by the rich, Socrates was asking questions of the poor in the market place for free.  At times, a question would burn so much in him that he would rush to put on his robe to race to the market on the ice while barefooted with his students following up hobbling after him.

----------


## rockandrollsouls

> If someone is born a midget and chooses to exploit the part in a circus, then they should be laughed at and belittled.  To the contrary, if someone is born a man amongst boys and chooses to play the part of their servant, all for their betterment, then they should be respected.
> Teaching is what it is today because Socrates, the founder of Western Civilization, considered the possibility of helping a slave's mind recollect  by his serving it as a midwife philosopher (a serving teacher).
> Without Socrates defining teaching in such a way, Civilization would have never been able to afford itself because no amount of money would have been sufficient to pay teachers what they deserve.


I don't need a western Civ lesson or a stupid metaphor.

----------


## acptulsa

> Now, about your statement about potholes.  Are you saying that the only way a pothole could be filled is if a government worker fills it?  Surely not.  
> 
> Are we just missing each other on semantics?


I think so.  I think he's intimating that no roadworker but a libertarian is likely to do it right.

----------


## rockandrollsouls

> No one understood the market like Socrates.  While the Sophists were charging money to answer questions asked by the rich, Socrates was asking questions of the poor in the market place for free.  At times, a question would burn so much in him that he would rush to put on his robe to race to the market on the ice while barefooted with his students following up hobbling after him.


Socrates was did not understand the marketplace. Don't try to twist it to make it sound like he did.

----------


## Truth Warrior

> I didn't design the curriculum. The schools, the curriculum, the mandates, all these things are a reality right now. Would you rather have the schools staffed by decent thinking people or brainwashed drones? That doesn't seem fair to the students. At least I know enough to be against the mindless Pledge ritual, the tests, the textbooks, the mandatory unionism, the nonsensical rules. 
> 
> Would you rather have Ron Paul quit Congress along with the handful of other congressman who have a modicum of common sense once in while?


*Ron Paul DOES NOT a COTUS make.*

----------


## NYgs23

> See, the thing is that the government itself owns nothing.  WE are supposed to own the government and thus everything that the government funded with our tax dollars.


I understand that. The point is the govt controls them right now, legitimately or illegitimately  




> Now, about your statement about potholes.  Are you saying that the only way a pothole could be filled is if a government worker fills it?


As long as the govt controls and monopolizes the road system only government-funded workers will fill them. As long as the schools are controlled by the govt only government-funded teachers will teach in them.

----------


## acptulsa

> What's the strawman? The point is you use govt services. As long as the govt monopolizes those services, don't you want the run halfway decently? Would rather they be $#@!ty just to make a point???


Just as soon as we sabotage the systems, the liberals have someone to blame for their failures.  And they just _love_ that...

----------


## PrairieQueen

I have lurked here for a long time and almost everyday I consider deleting my account because of threads like this. 

So, I know it won't matter to some, but I would like to say WELCOME to any teachers or cops or anyone who is here to learn, like myself.  I hope I won't delete my account tomorrow

----------


## constituent

> What's the strawman? The point is you use govt services. As long as the govt monopolizes those services, don't you want the run halfway decently? Would rather they be $#@!ty just to make a point???


They are $#@!ty.  Your whole argument is non-sense b/c it is based on the assumption that the schools are run halfway decently, knowing that to be a lie.

Prove to me that schools are run halfway decently first, then you will have legs to stand on.

----------


## NYgs23

> And to you I not only say bravo, but I got your back.  Thank you for trying to get the job done despite the fact that you have to fight the system tooth and nail to do it right.


Thank you. Unfortunately, some people around here seem to want to cut off their noses to spite their faces by pretending that, under the current system, living life without utilizing govt-controlled services on some level is a viable option for most.

----------


## constituent

> I guess you havent been reading your own work much.


my point stands, thanks.

besides, i have nothing to fear.

(nice threat btw, nice form for a 'minarchist')

----------


## constituent

> Thank you. Unfortunately, some people around here seem to want to cut off their noses to spite their faces by pretending that, under the current system, living life without utilizing govt-controlled services on some level is a viable option for most.


...and we should concern ourselves with "for most," why again?

----------


## Minarchy4Sale

> my point stands, thanks.
> 
> besides, i have nothing to fear.


except prison, unless of course you anarchs are all talk and no action, which I suspect is the case.

----------


## Kraig

> My only point Kraig, and of course you can take it or leave it, is that some of those teachers, and maybe only SOME, are upset at what they're seeing.  But, simply do not know enough to pinpoint what is really the problem.  Do you ever remember feeling like that yourself?  It is those people I think we can reach.  After all, what do we really gain by wholesale insulting an entire profession, besides a little momentary satisfaction?  We certainly don't forward the movement or make any converts.  It's only my opinion, but I truly think that we will win many more people over if we use persuasion, reason and facts.  
> 
> Maybe we're all just so damn frustrated at this point, that it's too hard to have patience with those who don't get it.


Point taken man, I just think that those who are fed up with the system would be more likely to agree with me when I insult it, rather than get offended.  I'm really very friendly in real life though, this is completely not a big deal.  I think this thread has turned more into this and that side trying to get the other to admit they're wrong than anything else.  

Also, there is much to gain by insulting an entire profession, depending on who you are talking to.  Sure talk to a teacher and mouth off about the public school system and you might lose any chance at furthering the conversion.  However, talk to a 21 year old who still has years of a horrible public school experience fresh in his mind, and the same mouthing off might get you enough respect for him to keep listening.

Trust me, when I am at the bar chatting up a random stranger about politics or whatever, I tread slowly and carefully, testing the waters to see how they respond to smaller things.  The forums just don't work like that IMO, for the most part we are all saying what we want to say rather than having a conversation with someone individually, and often people are just more blunt and open than they would be face to face.  

I really don't go running around offending people, more often than not it's ME who feels offended by their extreme non-interest or apathy, and then it's me who shuts up before they ever realized what I wanted to talk about.

----------


## NYgs23

> They are $#@!ty.  Your whole argument is non-sense b/c it is based on the assumption that the schools are run halfway decently, knowing that to be a lie.
> 
> Prove to me that schools are run halfway decently first, then you will have legs to stand on.


The roads are $#@!ty too. But if you push out the only people willing to work on them, they'll be even $#@!tier. If you tell all the thinking teachers to quit the schools and leave them to union bosses and morons, the schools will be even $#@!tier. Same with the cops. Do you want to tell what good, honest cops there are to quit on a principle and leave only the thugs?

It's like term limits in Congress. When all congressmen who believe in term limits quit after three terms on the principle, they make it practically less likely term limits will actually ever pass.

----------


## constituent

> As long as the govt controls and monopolizes the road system only government-funded workers will fill them. As long as the schools are controlled by the govt only government-funded teachers will teach in them.


Exactly, and as long as "well-meaning teachers" continue to legitimize the government and its schools, the government will continue to control education and thru it the nation's future.

----------


## constituent

> except prison, unless of course you anarchs are all talk and no action, which I suspect is the case.


do what?

"you anarchs?"  

"all talk?"

(what kinda baiting crap is that?)

wtf are you talking about, and why would i have to fear prison for expressing my thoughts on society?

you're just being ridiculous.

----------


## PrairieQueen

> The forums just don't work like that IMO, for the most part we are all saying what we want to say rather than having a conversation with someone individually, and often people are just more blunt and open than they would be face to face.


Why?  There are still real life people on the "other" side of the computer.  Why would you, meaning everyone, not talk to them like you do someone in the bar?  

I don't get it...

----------


## newbitech

> Exactly, and as long as "well-meaning teachers" continue to legitimize the government and its schools, the government will continue to control education and thru it the nation's future.



sort of like our inflated currency and the recent mark to mark rules being loosened up.  As long as banks are given the go ahead to legitimize worthless assets, we'll keep taxing future generations to pay for the bail outs.

----------


## constituent

> The roads are $#@!ty too. But if you push out the only people willing to work on them, they'll be even $#@!tier.


...and then folks will stop asking for competition and start demanding it.

----------


## NYgs23

> There's NOTHING "MAGIC" about government. It's ALL just people.


Who's talking about magic? Do you not see that _when_ the govt owns the roads (or controls them or whatever you want to call it), the people who maintain the roads will be paid by the govt. What do you except? A private third-party to pay people to maintain the government's roads? The point is that the govt _does_ control these things right now. Ipso facto, it's the only one who's going to maintain and staff these govt-controlled things.

----------


## constituent

> Why?  There are still real life people on the "other" side of the computer.  Why would you, meaning everyone, not talk to them like you do someone in the bar?  
> 
> I don't get it...


You frame it as though this is a bad thing... I wish folks were more direct in real life like they are on the internet.

----------


## NYgs23

> ...and we should concern ourselves with "for most," why again?


Congratulations on managing to live life completely free of all govt-controlled services.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Thank you. Unfortunately, some people around here seem to want to cut off their noses to spite their faces by pretending that, under the current system, living life without utilizing govt-controlled services on some level is a viable option for most.


Which "services" are you thinking of specifically?  Just curious.

Personally, I don't think it is that so much.  I think it is that most people around here disagree with the system as it now exists.  But, in attacking an entire profession, they are forgetting one of their highest held principles regarding collectivism vs. the individual.

Is your stance that you don't agree with public schools, etc., but that as long as they exist, you're one person who is trying to make them the best they can be?

----------


## newbitech

> Who's talking about magic? Do you not see that _when_ the govt owns the roads (or controls them or whatever you want to call it), the people who maintain the roads will be paid by the govt. What do you except? A private third-party to pay people to maintain the government's roads? The point is that the govt _does_ control these things right now. Ipso facto, it's the only one who's going to maintain and staff these govt-controlled things.


point of order, I don't think anyone is saying that maintain roads is a function of government unsupported by the constitution.  Tho it should be states that pay for this.  The federal govt has no business in schools.

----------


## NYgs23

> ...and then folks will stop asking for competition and start demanding it.


If you believe that the best way to privatize education and privatize transporation is by allowing them to go to the dogs first, you must also be hoping that Bernanke inflates a whole lot and totally destroys the dollar, so that people will demand private competition. I'd prefer to avoid taking detour through the Dark Ages in order to get to freedom. Besides such a situation is just as, if not more likely to lead to more tyranny. Govt control tends to grow in the midst of misery and deprivation.

----------


## Kraig

> Well, I don't know what to think.  You say that's the information they're missing, but you don't sound as if your friend is missing the information.  You make it sound like he's painfully aware of this information, gets reminded every day, and puts up with it at great personal pain and disgust because he wants the public to be served by _someone_ who is human.
> 
> And I say bravo.
> 
> 
> 
> And to you I not only say bravo, but I got your back.  Thank you for trying to get the job done despite the fact that you have to fight the system tooth and nail to do it right.


Well for better or worse, he doesn't even really serve anyone or wish to do so anymore.  He works a desk job in the jailhouse basically filling out paperwork and making phone calls because he doesn't want to have any part of the "real" police work.  For awhile I felt really sorry for him because he was a thug in high school and becoming a police officer was his idea of turning away from that lifestyle, only for him to quickly find out that he was still hanging out with a bunch of thugs so now he just keeps to himself, but everyone has to take their own path.  Anyways, thanks for having my back, it does seem like we are all in this together.

----------


## constituent

> Congratulations on managing to live life completely free of all govt-controlled services.


i say one thing, you quote it and then say some completely irrelevant garbage... i don't get it.  (well, i do actually get it.)

----------


## donnay

> ...and then folks will stop asking for competition and start demanding it.


+1776


NYgs23 has proven the point, throughout this thread, conditioning and indoctrinating people to think resistance is futile. *SIGH*

----------


## newbitech

> If you believe that the best way to privatize education and privatize transporation is by allowing them to go to the dogs first, you must also be hoping that Bernanke inflates a whole lot and totally destroys the dollar, so that people will demand private competition. I'd prefer to avoid taking detour through the Dark Ages in order to get to freedom. Besides such a situation is just as, if not more likely to lead to more tyranny. Govt control tends to grow in the midst of misery and deprivation.



Point of fact, Dr. Paul has been trying for years to get people to see how our economy is being undermined.  It actually did take a huge collapse for people to say hmmm.. maybe he was right.  

I think sometimes things have to get worse before they get better, it seems like a universal law at least in my own personal observations.

----------


## spotics

In all honesty education itself is a process of indoctrination.  As a former teacher who is considering returning to the field, and as someone who went to Catholic, Christian, and public schools, I have to say there are problems with all three of them.  In all honesty, if I had to choose which one is best, I would say the Catholic.  Public schools limit what teachers can teach, or mandate them to teach certain aspects in little time making it impossible for the students to comprehend things.  Catholic schools are a little better, but almost always use the state standard, however they a little lax in their rules allowing teachers to cover a little less but giving them enough time for students to comprhend.  I like them because I felt like I learned more and was taught by quality teachers.  

I will never send my children to a Christian school.  Having went to one, I came out a born again, neoconservative, book burning, gay hating, non-protestant bashing $#@!.  The teachers had no idea what they were doing.  I will send my child to the lousey public school system in my area before I will send them to a Christian school.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> except prison, unless of course you anarchs are all talk and no action, which I suspect is the case.


"you anarchs"???  

Are they all the same?  Because, quite frankly, I have seen quite a lot of difference in each person's opinion and manner.  At least on this forum.

----------


## NYgs23

> Which "services" are you thinking of specifically?


Money, for one. When you use money, you use a service that has been completely monopolized by the govt. That's wrong, but the only alternative as it stands is to live through bartering.




> Is your stance that you don't agree with public schools, etc., but that as long as they exist, you're one person who is trying to make them the best they can be?


My stance is that if I want to teach, I should compete within the current system, rather than limit my own job options to a great extent. Why should I handicap myself, especially when it won't save any tax money because they'd simply hire somebody else anyway? It helps no one, not me, not the students, not the taxpayers to do so.

----------


## Kraig

> Why?  There are still real life people on the "other" side of the computer.  Why would you, meaning everyone, not talk to them like you do someone in the bar?  
> 
> I don't get it...


Compare the forums, not to a 1 on 1 conversation, but to 30 people all trying to have their say.  I think in this case you will find that the forums are MORE civilized than a flesh to flesh group of people would be based on what we are talking about, but that could also be because of our common goals and desires.  Anyways I was trying to point out the differences of group conversation vs. two people talking, not advocating treating people badly just because they are behind a computer.

----------


## PrairieQueen

> You frame it as though this is a bad thing... I wish folks were more direct in real life like they are on the internet.


You can still be direct in a respectful manner.  A lot of threads here seem to degrade into nothing but insults.  It's been pointed out that members have left because of this.  I just don't see how that is constructive.

----------


## NYgs23

> point of order, I don't think anyone is saying that maintain roads is a function of government unsupported by the constitution.  Tho it should be states that pay for this.  The federal govt has no business in schools.


Well, I don't think any level of govt should be in the business of either, practically or morally. But we have to deal with the system as it exists.

----------


## Minarchy4Sale

> "you anarchs"???  
> 
> Are they all the same?  Because, quite frankly, I have seen quite a lot of difference in each person's opinion and manner.  At least on this forum.


I have yet to find an anarch that doesnt live completely in unyielding theory.  When I do, Ill be sure to make the distinction

----------


## NYgs23

> i say one thing, you quote it and then say some completely irrelevant garbage... i don't get it.  (well, i do actually get it.)


Frankly, I don't even understand half of what you said. I said, "Living life without govt services isn't a viable option for most." You said, "Why concern ourselves about 'for most'?" What does that mean? Do you use govt services? Then you are part of that group too.

----------


## Kraig

> I have yet to find an anarch that doesnt live completely in unyielding theory.  When I do, Ill be sure to make the distinction


What do you mean?  My theory may be unyielding, I certainly don't live that way though.

----------


## PrairieQueen

> Compare the forums, not to a 1 on 1 conversation, but to 30 people all trying to have their say.  I think in this case you will find that the forums are MORE civilized than a flesh to flesh group of people would be based on what we are talking about, but that could also be because of our common goals and desires.  Anyways I was trying to point out the differences of group conversation vs. two people talking, not advocating treating people badly just because they are behind a computer.


Well, my experience in general is different.  I think a lot of posters hind behind their anonymity and are LESS civilized.  I know if I was responded to in the manner a lot of posters here do,  I wouldn't listen to another word they said..even though they may convince me.

----------


## constituent

> You can still be direct in a respectful manner.  A lot of threads here seem to degrade into nothing but insults.  It's been pointed out that members have left because of this.  I just don't see how that is constructive.


Funny thing about internet forums, as much as the degrading factor sucks and is often offensive to the thinking audience, in terms of numbers (alone... viewership, etc.) it sells like hotcakes.

"People" love this kinda $#@!, that's why they watch so much t.v.

Honey, honey, poison is a two way street.

----------


## Kraig

> Well, my experience in general is different.  I think a lot of posters hind behind their anonymity and are LESS civilized.  I know if I was responded to in the manner a lot of posters here do,  I wouldn't listen to another word they said..even though they may convince me.


Well that's not me, that's also why I use my real name here.   Sometimes I have to rope the passion back in, but I do try to be civilized at all times.

----------


## Minarchy4Sale

> What do you mean?  My theory may be unyielding, I certainly don't live that way though.


See now, we are making progress!  I used to be where you are.  I find that the fight for liberty is a battle of inches, and you CAN live your theory, if you find a theory that actually works in the real world!  It is necessary to advocate positions that improve our condition and are winnable.

Remember, it took the collectivists a century to get us to this point.  We simply cant undo it overnight.

----------


## Deborah K

> If they're killing Israeli soldiers they have the moral high ground, easily over cops and teachers here.  I don't think that happens in Gaza often though, it's pretty much the children getting killed.  Anyways the first step to de-program him would be to get him the hell out of that violent concentration camp so he can see what it is like to live in a more rational and free society.  Teachers and cops don't have that excuse though, despite our oppressive government they still have 100% freedom to switch jobs.  Really though, playing the *ignorant* card for an EDUCATOR is just really sad to me, their job is supposed reduce ignorance and they can't even do it for their own mind, let alone the minds of others.  I think many teachers AND cops just take the job because it is easy.
> 
> Personally if someone said my entire profession was full of scumbags and they gave me a couple reasons to back it up, I would listen to them and look into it.  After looking into it I would probably get the hell out.


Ignorance and indoctrination are not the same thing.  And your argument doesn't apply to the open minded teacher who went to the CFL event.  There was a chance there, to get another teacher on board with us.  If you want to see a corrupt system change i.e. our educational system, it will take infiltrating it.  Can't do that without teachers who think like we do.

----------


## PrairieQueen

> Well that's not me, that's also why I use my real name here.   Sometimes I have to rope the passion back in, but I do try to be civilized at all times.


I wasn't directing this at you, just a general observation.  

And this is not just isolated to this forum either, it's everywhere.

----------


## rockandrollsouls

> I have lurked here for a long time and almost everyday I consider deleting my account because of threads like this. 
> 
> So, I know it won't matter to some, but I would like to say WELCOME to any teachers or cops or anyone who is here to learn, like myself.  I hope I won't delete my account tomorrow


That's your decision and ultimately your loss. Don't show up if you're so tormented to be here. However, people are entitled to their opinion. As I've stated earlier I don't generalize teachers and cops into one group. Some don't know better. Some are oblivious. Some abuse their power, and some are really dedicated to their job. Regardless, it's easy to understand why one would have it out for some of these teachers and officers. 

I can respect arguments from both sides, but I will state flat out I would abolish the public school system immediately. The notion, "this is how it is, this is how it will remain, so deal with it" doesn't sit well with me. Furthermore, I take issue with teachers and others using that argument to support a failed system. Public education doesn't work and it's ridiculously expensive.

Edit: I personally welcome all teachers or officers, but don't use your job as an excuse to defend the failed system. You are not a special exception. There is no "I support freedom except...."

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Money, for one. When you use money, you use a service that has been completely monopolized by the govt.


Ok, but it's really the Federal Reserve that monopolizes money, right?  And they're not a government organization.



> That's wrong, but the only alternative as it stands is to live through bartering.


Until we change it, yes.




> My stance is that if I want to teach, I should compete within the current system, rather than limit my own job options to a great extent. Why should I handicap myself, especially when it won't save any tax money because they'd simply hire somebody else anyway? It helps no one, not me, not the students, not the taxpayers to do so.


I guess we just differ here.  The only way I could bring myself to work for the gummit, is if 1. I thought my actions would serve to reduce said gummit (i.e. dismantle the agency for which I worked), or 2. That through my actions, I would be able to do an end run around what the gummit was attempting to do.  For example, figure out a way to avoid using the many government indoctrination programs and instead teach kids about the Constitution, the principles of liberty, etc.   Otherwise, to me, it would just be furthering exactly what the government was attempting to impose and I would want no part of it.

This is probably a really severe example, but you know those old men being tried right now for their part in the Khmer Rouge massacre?  One of their excuses for murdering so many people, was that if they did not, they themselves would have been murdered.  It's only my opinion, but to me, that's not a valid excuse AT ALL.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> I have yet to find an anarch that doesnt live completely in unyielding theory.  When I do, Ill be sure to make the distinction


Right off the top of my head, go look up some of tremendoustie's posts.  

There are some anarcho-capitalists here, that you probably had no idea that were.  Because during the campaign, they were working their asses off for Ron Paul and donating money hand over fist, just like every other person.  I just don't think we can group people together like that.  You know, I hate it when a couple people here do that in their attacks on Christians, traditional conservatives, etc., so I'd just be a hypocrite if I didn't stand up and say something when the same was lobbed in the other direction.  

Note:  And I'm not speaking about those few whose sole purpose in life seems to be to cause division in the movement, or to destroy it altogether.

----------


## Minarchy4Sale

> Go look up some of tremendoustie's posts.


Ill do that.  Is he pragmatic anarch or an unyielding one who actually lives his talk?

----------


## PrairieQueen

> That's your decision and ultimately your loss. Don't show up if you're so tormented to be here. However, people are entitled to their opinion. As I've stated earlier I don't generalize teachers and cops into one group. Some don't know better. Some are oblivious. Some abuse their power, and some are really dedicated to their job. Regardless, it's easy to understand why one would have it out for some of these teachers and officers. 
> 
> I can respect arguments from both sides, but I will state flat out I would abolish the public school system immediately. The notion, "this is how it is, this is how it will remain, so deal with it" doesn't sit well with me. Furthermore, I take issue with teachers and others using that argument to support a failed system. Public education doesn't work and it's ridiculously expensive.
> 
> Edit: I personally welcome all teachers or officers, but don't use your job as an excuse to defend the failed system. You are not a special exception. There is no "I support freedom except...."


I never said they weren't entitled to their opinion.  I just think someone that can remain respectful in a debate will have more chance of persuading someone than someone who resorts to name calling and cheap shots

----------


## Kraig

> See now, we are making progress!  I used to be where you are.  I find that the fight for liberty is a battle of inches, and you CAN live your theory, if you find a theory that actually works in the real world!  It is necessary to advocate positions that improve our condition and are winnable.
> 
> Remember, it took the collectivists a century to get us to this point.  We simply cant undo it overnight.


I just don't think I can look for theories in that way, I want what is best, if I can have it or not, I am still going to acknowledge and admire what I believe to be is best.  I know we can't undo this $#@! overnight, I really have no hope of living in what I would consider an ideal society.  I DO have hope of living in a much better society than what I have today, and that is why I am here.  I don't agree with anyone here 100%, but nearly everyone here shares enough common interest to work towards that better society, if not my ideal one.  When we all accomplish that better society, I can then have my own kids in peace, and I will be able teach them what took me 27 years of wading through bull$#@! to find out, and I'm sure that head start will give them a chance to accomplish much more than I would be able to.  Sure, this better society is still quite the lofty goal, and sometimes it seems impossible, but that is my approach to all of this and if we can pull it off I'm sure it will be more than enough to satisfy my anarchist idealism.

----------


## ronpaulhawaii

Well, isn't this a pleasant thread 

I suppose such rancor is hard to avoid with a title that commands people to do something and includes the word demon

sheesh...




> Don't show up if you're so tormented to be here. ...


This was completely uncalled for and detrimental to the cause of liberty

----------


## Kraig

> Ignorance and indoctrination are not the same thing.  And your argument doesn't apply to the open minded teacher who went to the CFL event.  There was a chance there, to get another teacher on board with us.  If you want to see a corrupt system change i.e. our educational system, it will take infiltrating it.  Can't do that without teachers who think like we do.


See I don't believe it can be changed, and certainly not by infiltrating it.  It needs to be removed, dissolved, destroyed, not changed.  If you want to try and change it, good luck, just don't ask me to help with what I think is impossible.  This is a back issue though, I think we agree on the big ones.

----------


## homah

> That's your decision and ultimately your loss. Don't show up if you're so tormented to be here. However, people are entitled to their opinion.


Of course people are entitled to their opinions.  That being said, it's understandable that one might be turned off when they see that another poster's first response to an OP is "$#@! off."  Though, this being the internet, I'm surprised PrairieQueen isn't used to it by now.

PrairieQueen, this thread is representative of most internet forums, sadly.

----------


## rockandrollsouls

> Well, isn't this a pleasant thread 
> 
> I suppose such rancor is hard to avoid with a title that commands people to do something and includes the word demon
> 
> sheesh...
> 
> 
> 
> This was completely uncalled for and detrimental to the cause of liberty


It is most certainly not uncalled for. If she is so tormented to be on the forums and doesn't enjoy being here no one is forcing her to. Do you mind telling me why that is uncalled for or detrimental to the cause of liberty, because I don't see your post as anything other than an attempt to stifle my free thought.

----------


## Uncle Emanuel Watkins

> I don't need a western Civ lesson or a stupid metaphor.


Radical, dude!

----------


## rockandrollsouls

> Of course people are entitled to their opinions.  That being said, it's understandable that one might be turned off when they see that another poster's first response to an OP is "$#@! off."  Though, this being the internet, I'm surprised PrairieQueen isn't used to it by now.
> 
> PrairieQueen, this thread is representative of most internet forums, sadly.


Well the original poster has a lot of nerve to try and tell ME how to think, why I should think it, and then use a movement I've worked very hard in as a reason WHY I or somebody else shouldn't be wary of teachers propping up a failed socialist school system. 

He didn't simply ask people to tone it down, he flat out started a spam thread on their opinions and went on to patronize them. That deserved a "Oh shutup...give me a break."

----------


## Minarchy4Sale

> There are some anarcho-capitalists here, that you probably had no idea that were.  Because during the campaign, they were working their asses off for Ron Paul and donating money hand over fist, just like every other person.


I think by definition that someone who engages in politics doesnt really fit the an-cap description, no?  I mean, yeah, they may advocate what I consider to be a utiopian vision in the long run, but they arent so myopic as to ignore acting to make real change in the real world... 




> I just don't think we can group people together like that.  You know, I hate it when a couple people here do that in their attacks on Christians, traditional conservatives, etc., so I'd just be a hypocrite if I didn't stand up and say something when the same was lobbed in the other direction.


I see your point.  I am getting to the point here though that I was at when *I* was in theory a "libertarian/an-cap", listening to people talking about no government, but afraid to DO anything, because their ideas were so radical and unattainable that to walk that walk for even a day would certainly mean giving up anything good you had in your life.  It's a dead end utopian vision akin to communism because it denies reality and assumes some perfect world that will never exist...  and the only way to challenge the thinking is to ask why they just talk.....  

I will take the point about not lumping them all together though.  Im sure some of them have a pragmatic bone or two in their bodies

----------


## NYgs23

> Ok, but it's really the Federal Reserve that monopolizes money, right?  And they're not a government organization.


I'd say the Fed is as much quasi-govt as it is quasi-private. It operates under the force of the State.




> I guess we just differ here.  The only way I could bring myself to work for the gummit, is if 1. I thought my actions would serve to reduce said gummit (i.e. dismantle the agency for which I worked), or 2. That through my actions, I would be able to do an end run around what the gummit was attempting to do.  For example, figure out a way to avoid using the many government indoctrination programs and instead teach kids about the Constitution, the principles of liberty, etc.   Otherwise, to me, it would just be furthering exactly what the government was attempting to impose and I would want no part of it.


Would you be willing to maintain govt roads? If you were, say, a glazier, would you accept contracts to maintain windows in govt buildings? What about firefighting? More importantly, are those glaziers and firefighters behaving immorally, and are they undermining freedom? Admittedly, being a teacher is a bit difference because you can have influence over kids, but there is no reason, no law that suggests it has to be a negative influence.

----------


## ronpaulhawaii

> It is most certainly not uncalled for. If she is so tormented to be on the forums and doesn't enjoy being here no one is forcing her to. Do you mind telling me why that is uncalled for or detrimental to the cause of liberty, because I don't see your post as anything other than an attempt to stifle my free thought.


I didn't quote anything but you suggesting she leave. It is detrimental to run people off, and attacking a respectful new poster seems idiotic to me.

And if you think my remarking on that one sentence is an attempt to stifle your free thought... I hardly know what to say

----------


## rockandrollsouls

> I didn't quote anything but you suggesting she leave. It is detrimental to run people off, and attacking a respectful new poster seems idiotic to me.
> 
> And if you think my remarking on that one sentence is an attempt to stifle your free thought... I hardly know what to say


I don't see how I was running her off. She simply stated she debated her account here, and if she doesn't like being here then no one is forcing her to be and it was her decision but there are going to be people that disagree and fight with each other.

That's not disrespectful, I certainly didn't attack her, and you're completely out of line for trying to start issues with me. Stop being so overly sensitive and butt-hurt ya pansy.

Edit: Because not even she took it the wrong way like you did if you read her response.

----------


## Uncle Emanuel Watkins

> Well the original poster has a lot of nerve to try and tell ME how to think, why I should think it, and then use a movement I've worked very hard in as a reason WHY I or somebody else shouldn't be wary of teachers propping up a failed socialist school system. 
> 
> He didn't simply ask people to tone it down, he flat out started a spam thread on their opinions and went on to patronize them. That deserved a "Oh shutup...give me a break."


And, yet, Western Civilization was started because of a social act of someone who was the most worthy choosing to instead lower themselves to that of a servant.

----------


## pcosmar

Ok, so there are a FEW good apples in the rotten bushel.
It still does not change the fact that the bushel is rotten. 

This could go on for pages and those that will not seen the problem still won't see it.
I would *_almost_ welcome the tanks in the street,  just to end the pretense. Some still won't see the problem. 

*I say almost. It will be sad for those that get caught in the crossfire. But that is unavoidable at this point.

----------


## rockandrollsouls

> And, yet, Western Civilization was started because of a social act of someone who was the most worthy choosing to instead lower themselves to that of a servant.


I don't see how your reference to western civilization studies and use of winding sentences that run in circles have any relevancy towards socialist tendencies in what was meant to be a free country.  

Socrates lived in a totally different time with a different government and we don't even know what it was truly like because we don't even have a substantial amount of documentation only speculation based on a little evidence to which thousands of pages in generic history books were written. It's my opinion liberal arts studies and studies focused on western civ are outdated and inaccurate.

You are trying to compare apples to screwdrivers. Seriously.

----------


## PrairieQueen

> Of course people are entitled to their opinions.  That being said, it's understandable that one might be turned off when they see that another poster's first response to an OP is "$#@! off."  Though, this being the internet, I'm surprised PrairieQueen isn't used to it by now.
> 
> PrairieQueen, this thread is representative of most internet forums, sadly.


Oh I have seen and been in my fair share of threads like this, but see, I have yet to see where anyone involved had their minds changed.  Usually it is the opposite and people dig their heels in and shoot crap back and forth, even just for the sake of not admitting they had changed their mind.  

anyway, I have to go.  This is why I don't post much, really don't have time to do more than lurk.

----------


## Howard_Roark

> STOP Demonizing Teachers and Cops.
> 
> Let's go on the Ron Paul Blow back principal.
> 
> When at the Campaign for Liberty I brought a very smart history teacher with me.  I have opened her eyes to the bull$#@! between the whole REP & DEM Hypocrisy thing and she came with an open mind.  After several of the speakers trashed teachers then at the lunch a few of the members trashing teachers she closed her mind and had a bitter Taste about the whole thing.  Next time when you are speaking in public or to others think about how you turned away a potential supporter.
> 
> We need to focus ON THE SYSTEM not the INDIVIDUALS !!!!!!
> It is the system that keeps and maintains the Rotten Apples.
> It is the system that is Dumbing down our kids.
> ...


The government has a monopoly on education and will not allow private companies to compete through school vouchers and choosing which school to go to. Teachers unions are a major reason that school vouchers never get off the ground. Ayn Rand divided everyone into producers (I think right name), leeches and moochers. Teachers are moochers. Police spend the vast majority of there time enforcing frivilous drug laws without which most of them wouldent have any job. If you want to praise government officials boy do I have a party for you - DEMOCRAT.

----------


## pcosmar

Wow , that's pretty good.



> Originally Posted by *PrairieQueen* 
> I have lurked here for a long time and almost everyday I consider deleting my account because of threads like this.
> 
> So, I know it won't matter to some, but I would like to say WELCOME to any teachers or cops or anyone who is here to learn, like myself. I hope I won't delete my account tomorrow


First post
Threaten to close the account.
And effectively derail the thread.

Hmmm.

----------


## Deborah K

> See I don't believe it can be changed, and certainly not by infiltrating it.  It needs to be removed, dissolved, destroyed, not changed.  If you want to try and change it, good luck, just don't ask me to help with what I think is impossible.  This is a back issue though, I think we agree on the big ones.


What do you think about vouchers?  Wouldn't that be a constructive change for starters?  What is your suggestion?  Abolishing the public school system?  And replacing it with what?  Nothing?

----------


## Uncle Emanuel Watkins

> The government has a monopoly on education and will not allow private companies to compete through school vouchers and choosing which school to go to. Teachers unions are a major reason that school vouchers never get off the ground. Ayn Rand divided everyone into producers (I think right name), leeches and moochers. Teachers are moochers. Police spend the vast majority of there time enforcing frivilous drug laws without which most of them wouldent have any job. If you want to praise government officials boy do I have a party for you - DEMOCRAT.


Because it is the most natural behavior in the world, one doesn't need to teach tyranny although teachers were once employed by the master classes to train their children how to one day rule.  During that time, there existed no such thing as public property in the sense that the people owned it or were educated in public schools.  The ruling king owned all the property in the past meaning that he or she represented the state.

----------


## LibertyEagle

I used to think vouchers would be a step in the right direction.  You know, for competition.  But, then I realized that if private schools were forced to accept said vouchers, then they would be under the government's control for doing so and would be forced to comply.

----------


## pcosmar

> What do you think about vouchers?  Wouldn't that be a constructive change for starters?  What is your suggestion?  Abolishing the public school system?  And replacing it with what?  Nothing?


Vouchers would be better than nothing. I would like to get something back for the children that I don't have but am paying for.
Better yet would be abolish the public school system and let parents be responsible for their children's education.

----------


## Deborah K

> I used to think vouchers would be a step in the right direction.  You know, for competition.  But, then I realized that if private schools were forced to accept said vouchers, then they would be under the government's control for doing so and would be forced to comply.


There isn't a need to use vouchers for private schools, is there?  I'm thinking of competition between public schools.  And I also think we should get rid of the Dept. of Ed.  Let the states tend to their own schools.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> There isn't a need to use vouchers for private schools, is there?  I'm thinking of competition between public schools.  And I also think we should get rid of the Dept. of Ed.  Let the states tend to their own schools.


I could be wrong about how things are now, but back when they were first introduced, the plan was to force *all* schools to accept them and that includes, private schools.  That's my major concern about these things.

----------


## Minarchy4Sale

> I used to think vouchers would be a step in the right direction.  You know, for competition.  But, then I realized that if private schools were forced to accept said vouchers, then they would be under the government's control for doing so and would be forced to comply.


Tax credits!  Tax credits give control to the taxpayer (sadly, even those who pay no taxes), and the only government control would be licensing...  Hell, if we do it right, you could use private accreditation agencies.

Of course this would require people to exercise some discipline, but I'm sure some private contract could be written to assign rights to future tax "returns" at discount in exchange for tuition credit.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Tax credits!  Tax credits give control to the taxpayer (sadly, even those who pay no taxes), and the only government control would be licensing...  Hell, if we do it right, you could use private accreditation agencies.


Licensing?  You mean as in licensing the institution as a school?

----------


## Deborah K

> I could be wrong about how things are now, but back when they were first introduced, the plan was to force *all* schools to accept them and that includes, private schools.  That's my major concern about these things.



Well, if that's the case then I wouldn't be for that.  I'd be for dismantling the Dept.of Ed., give the school issue to the states, and have vouchers in the public school system.  And here in Cali, I'd get rid of the California Teacher's Ass.  right off the bat!!

----------


## Minarchy4Sale

> Licensing?  You mean as in licensing the institution as a school?


yeah, there has to be some mechanism to avoid diploma mills... but using the existing private accreditation agencies would suffice.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> yeah, there has to be some mechanism to avoid diploma mills... but using the existing private accreditation agencies would suffice.


Yeah, I'd be much more in favor of private accreditation agencies, as opposed to government licensing.  And if parents chose to send their children to an unaccredited school, they should have the right to do that, or to homeschool.  Bottom line, I don't want the government involved in education, in any way, shape, or form.  I think it's really dangerous to allow anyone that much control over our children's minds.

----------


## Minarchy4Sale

> Yeah, I'd be much more in favor of private accreditation agencies, as opposed to government licensing.  And if parents chose to send their children to an unaccredited school, they should have the right to do that, or to homeschool.  Bottom line, I don't want the government involved in education, in any way, shape, or form.  I think it's really dangerous to allow anyone that much control over our children's minds.


Think we could sell the tax credit for homeschool families if the kids pass standardized tests?  Think about the incentives..  Most districts spend 6-9k per year per kid.  If homeschooling really does reinforce liberty thinking, something like that could make a huge impact within a generation.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Think we could sell the tax credit for homeschool families if the kids pass standardized tests?  Think about the incentives..


Would you please explain to me what you're thinking about with regard to tax credits?

----------


## Minarchy4Sale

> Would you please explain to me what you're thinking about with regard to tax credits?


Take a reasonable tuition figure (whatever the current catholic schools charge, they seem to be doing the best job at the moment) say 4k per kid.  If you pay property tax, then you deduct your 4k per kid from your property tax bill.  If you dont pay that much tax, then you see a 'refund' (cash payment) for anything over your property tax, assuming that you incurred the 4k cost for tuition.  If you cant pay your tuition up front, the school has you assign your 'refund' or you make monthly payments (in lieu of what would normally be attached to your mortgage).

For home schoolers, if the kids meet the same kind of private accreditation based standards that their peers are expected to maintain as measured by an objective test (like a kids version of SAT et., al.), then you qualify for the 'credit' even though you didnt incur the cost (obviously the cost of the materials isnt insignificant).  

Call it a 'results based competition system'  Schools not only have to compete with each other, but also with parents.  Mothers are more likely to stay home with their kids and teach them well.  Everyone has an incentive to do a good job, and the .gov is relegated to accountants.

----------


## Theocrat

> *The cops and teachers are willingly working WITHIN the current "system". That makes them PART of the TYRANNY problem.<IMHO>*


And yet, here you are posting *as a member* on a forum which supports the principles of a man who is an elected official of the very system you hate, not to mention this forum seeks to promote and elect candidates who will restore a republic which you believe is inherently evil.

So, what does that say about you?

----------


## purplechoe

Having read most of this thread, I have so say that I agree with most of the teachers/ cops bashers. The mods are starting to scare me. I'm seriously thinking about dropping this forum all together because of the attitude I see displayed by the moderaters here. If that's the direction this movement is heading, I just might have to jump off from this Titanic. 

I think the OP is a jerk and not a very informed one. If this thread represents the mindset of liberty loving teachers of our movement, than I'm not sure if I should drop this whole movement all together. It's starting to remind me of republican/ democratic moronic arguments.

To the teachers, thanks! You have made me loose any faith I might have had in liberty living teachers in this movement.

Sad, sad, sad...

----------


## donnay

> And yet, here you are posting *as a member* on a forum which supports the principles of a man who is an elected official of the very system you hate, not to mention this forum seeks to promote and elect candidates who will restore a republic which you believe is inherently evil.
> 
> So, what does that say about you?




What it says to me is TW doesn't hold any illusions about the corrupt system.  Yes, many of us here support Ron Paul because Ron Paul is a strict constitutionalists and wants to see this country get back to "limited" government as our founders intended it to be.

I am fairly certain that if the system wasn't so *corrupt* (at the highest levels), we would have seen Ron Paul as our president.

----------


## Deborah K

> Having read most of this thread, I have so say that I agree with most of the teachers/ cops bashers. The mods are starting to scare me. I'm seriously thinking about dropping this forum all together because of the attitude I see displayed by the moderaters here. If that's the direction this movement is heading, I just might have to jump off from this Titanic.


Why would you agree with the teacher/cops bashers?  What is your reasoning?

I think the mods are getting fatigued by all the hate mongering that has been going on in this forum lately.  There are a certain number of people who go from thread to thread spewing hate all over anyone who doesn't fit their version of what a Ron Paul supporter should be.  I'm personally getting really sick of it myself.  Sorry guys, not all RP supporters are anarchists, anarcho-capitalists.  Stop trying to turn us all into that.  

It's okay to have differing opinions and to debate, but some in here are making extremism look like that is your only choice if you want to be accepted here.  This needs to stop.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Having read most of this thread, I have so say that I agree with most of the teachers/ cops bashers. The mods are starting to scare me. I'm seriously thinking about dropping this forum all together because of the attitude I see displayed by the moderaters here. If that's the direction this movement is heading, I just might have to jump off from this Titanic.


Oh, give me a break.  Moderators are human too.  The reality is that we have been allowing far too much flagrant insulting and name-calling to go on around here.  Those things are clearly against forum guidelines.  I'm sure I'm not the only Mod who has been PM'd and begged by people, who are now gone, to stop some of this BS.  We have lost many long-time members and no telling how many lurkers we have driven away.  Check this out:  http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=176045

As for using collectivism to bash all teachers and policemen, what happened to the idea of judging each INDIVIDUAL by their own actions?  Or, is that just rhetoric we use when it suits our purposes?

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Yeah, I'd be much more in favor of private accreditation agencies, as opposed to government licensing.  And if parents chose to send their children to an unaccredited school, they should have the right to do that, or to homeschool.  Bottom line, I don't want the government involved in education, in any way, shape, or form.  I think it's really dangerous to allow anyone that much control over our children's minds.


I agree with you fully.  The obvious danger of government messing with kids' minds is why Marx made government education the 10th plank in his manifesto.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Oh, give me a break.  Moderators are human too.  The reality is that we have been allowing far too much flagrant insulting and name-calling to go on around here.  Those things are clearly against forum guidelines.  I'm sure I'm not the only Mod who has been PM'd and begged by people, who are now gone, to stop some of this BS.  We have lost many long-time members and no telling how many lurkers we have driven away.  Check this out:  http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=176045
> 
> As for using collectivism to bash all teachers and policemen, what happened to the idea of judging each INDIVIDUAL by their own actions?  Or, is that just rhetoric we use when it suits our purposes?


Because the government teachers and police work for an inherently collectivist "agency"-the government.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Like our group has been tyrannizing yours for millenia. Your getting off easy.   It's your gang in D.C. that is implementing the NWO, NOT mine.


Hhmmm....  You consider Ron Paul supporters to be tyrannizing your "group"?  You honestly believe that Ron Paul and those who support him are implementing the NWO?

By the way, I thought you didn't believe in groups.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Because the government teachers and police work for an inherently collectivist "agency"-the government.


So, to you, it's ok to use collectivism to judge a profession, if some in that profession accept government funds for their work?   Is that your stance?  Funny, I never read that perspective in any of Mises' writings.

----------


## LibForestPaul

So Teachers and Cops are protesting against their insane raises. Rallying for reduction in staff. Demanding free enterprise.

Or, are they just trying to make sure they get theirs.

I know teachers, they know they are on the dole. They don't CARE. They have a cushy job, are overpaid, believe the system cheats student, know it, and do nothing about...

Same with cops. Pension, health care, money, union, guaranteed raises. Screw the taxpayer.

----------


## Deborah K

> *You figure it out.* 
> 
> 
> 
> *"Visit LewRockwell.com, an outstanding and crucially important Web site I visit every day." -- Ron Paul.* 
> *"THE REVOLUTION, A MANIFESTO" ( page # 158 ),* *http://www.lewrockwell.com/*** 
> 
> *"Of course I'm cheering on Ron Paul because he is exposing the nature of the whole system. He is not running for president. He is running against the presidency as it is currently understood. Ultimately, however, I do not believe that politics offers a way out. What we need is a new consciousness concerning the idea of human liberty." -- Lew Rockwell*


Not all of us choose to worship at the alter of Lew Rockwell, TW.  Even RP doesn't.  You need a new approach.  This one's getting boring.

----------


## pcosmar

I thought it odd when the OP posted the question Teachers and police, until I did a google search to add to a post. Then the connection became more clear.

Indoctrination
Enforcement

It is all about control. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8cC21jB9EE

----------


## constituent

> I don't see how your reference to western civilization studies and use of winding sentences that run in circles have any relevancy towards socialist tendencies in what was meant to be a free country.


yea, but uew is a blast and you know it.


just as an aside, i've already hit the lake and dinner since departing from this thread.... that it is still chugging on strong says something, i'm tryin' to figure out what.

----------


## Deborah K

> So Teachers and Cops are protesting against their insane raises. Rallying for reduction in staff. Demanding free enterprise.
> 
> Or, are they just trying to make sure they get theirs.
> 
> I know teachers, they know they are on the dole. They don't CARE. They have a cushy job, are overpaid, believe the system cheats student, know it, and do nothing about...
> 
> Same with cops. Pension, health care, money, union, guaranteed raises. Screw the taxpayer.


What about the issue at hand???  What about the open-minded teacher that went to the CFL event?  What about that?  Are you in agreement with the anarchists that we should take the collectivist approach and attack *all* teachers/cops?  Write them ALL off?

----------


## LibertyEagle

> You figure it out. 
> 
> 
> 
> "Visit LewRockwell.com, an outstanding and crucially important Web site I visit every day." -- Ron Paul. 
> "THE REVOLUTION, A MANIFESTO" ( page # 158 ), http://www.lewrockwell.com/ 
> 
> *"Of course I'm cheering on Ron Paul because he is exposing the nature of the whole system. He is not running for president. He is running against the presidency as it is currently understood. Ultimately, however, I do not believe that politics offers a way out. What we need is a new consciousness concerning the idea of human liberty." -- Lew Rockwell*


Well, now we know what Lew Rockwell and Thomas Woods thinks.  But, as far as Ron Paul goes....

*“I have many friends in the libertarian movement who look down on those of us who get involved in political activity,” he acknowledged, but “eventually, if you want to bring about changes … what you have to do is participate in political action.” -- Ron Paul*

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> So, to you, it's ok to use collectivism to judge a profession, if some in that profession accept government funds for their work?   Is that your stance?  Funny, I never read that perspective in any of Mises' writings.


"When one gets into bed with government, one must expect the disease it spreads". Ron Paul.

Accepting government funds and being a government agency are entirely different.  Your point is fallacious and intellectually dishonest.  For example, arts institutions often accept government funding, but have nothing to do with the gov'ment otherwise.  

My point is specific to government agencies.  Beyond that, we look at things on a case by case basis.

----------


## Theocrat

> *You figure it out.* 
> 
> 
> 
> *"Visit LewRockwell.com, an outstanding and crucially important Web site I visit every day." -- Ron Paul.* 
> *"THE REVOLUTION, A MANIFESTO" ( page # 158 ),* *http://www.lewrockwell.com/*** 
> 
> *"Of course I'm cheering on Ron Paul because he is exposing the nature of the whole system. He is not running for president. He is running against the presidency as it is currently understood. Ultimately, however, I do not believe that politics offers a way out. What we need is a new consciousness concerning the idea of human liberty." -- Lew Rockwell*


Then maybe you should relinquish your membership here at Liberty Forest and stick to LewRockwell.com, because this forum is *not* LewRockwell.com, as much as you would like it to be. We support the principles and work of Congressman Ron Paul, *not Lew Rockwell*.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> So Teachers and Cops are protesting against their insane raises. Rallying for reduction in staff. Demanding free enterprise.
> 
> Or, are they just trying to make sure they get theirs.
> 
> I know teachers, they know they are on the dole. They don't CARE. They have a cushy job, are overpaid, believe the system cheats student, know it, and do nothing about...
> 
> Same with cops. Pension, health care, money, union, guaranteed raises. Screw the taxpayer.


Just judge each person's actions individually; not collectively.  Not everyone has the same viewpoints, ya know.

----------


## constituent

> I know teachers, they know they are on the dole. They don't CARE. They have a cushy job, are overpaid, believe the system cheats student, know it, and do nothing about...


Yea, the teacher I was with was right there.  She also hated the a*hole parents who cared way more about petty, bickering personal $#@! they had w/ her than actually taking responsibility for their kids' future, that's what really burned her out when you get right down to it.  Last few times we talked, she was just like "f* it, whatcha gunna do?"  Kind of a shame, she's brilliant and loves the kids individually.  But that's how it is, and that's how it has to (needs to) be.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> "When one gets into bed with government, one must expect the disease it spreads". Ron Paul.
> 
> Accepting government funds and being a government agency are entirely different.  Your point is fallacious and intellectually dishonest.  For example, arts institutions often accept government funding, but have nothing to do with the gov'ment otherwise.  
> 
> My point is specific to government agencies.  Beyond that, we look at things on a case by case basis.


Oh bull$#@!.  Do you even understand how ridiculous that post of yours, is?  RON PAUL himself works for the government.  Do you hate him too?  

And no, I wasn't being intellectually dishonest at all; I was calling you on your BS.  You're the one running around here insulting people for being collectivists, but apparently, you can't manage to adhere to your own supposed principles.  Or is it, that you make the rules up as you go?  

I called you out on your hypocrisy, yeah, I did.  Live with it.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> *Hunh, looks to me like it's Ron's sentiment too.*


Nope.  Ron is a constitutionalist.  Sorry.  If you doubt it, ask Lew.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> *Not as boring as your archist crap.*
> 
> *Congressman Ron Paul: Archives*
> 
> *Past articles by Congressman Ron Paul on LewRockwell.com*
> *http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul-arch.html*




Yes, Lew Rockwell admires Ron too.

That does not change the fact that Ron Paul is a constitutionalist and thus advocates a limited constitutional GOVERNMENT.

I hate it for ya, but those are the facts.

Question:  Do you categorize Ron Paul's words and writings as "archist crap" too?

----------


## constituent

> Question:  Do you categorize Ron Paul's words and writings as "archist crap" too?


I'll pipe up here.

Some of it, yes (for me anyway, though the question was posed to TW).

Though I find it would hurt my cause to waste my time ripping down RP, so I don't.

Provoking such actions seem irresponsible (or if not necessarily irresponsible... certainly an in the heat of debate kinda moment).

----------


## LibertyEagle

> *When and IF I ever happen to run into any members of the libertarian "movement"  I'll be sure to pass Ron's message along.*


Does this mean that you don't think any of us wanting to reinstate the Constitution are in your eyes working in the "libertarian movement"?  If not, what exactly do you mean by your comment and in your own words please?

----------


## homah

> I know teachers, they know they are on the dole. They don't CARE. They have a cushy job, are overpaid, believe the system cheats student, know it, and do nothing about...


My wife left for work this morning at 5:30 and is just about to head home.  Nice, cushy, 14 1/2 hour day there.  Maybe some teachers work the system, but most I have known put in at least 60-70 hours a week and don't make a ton of money.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> I'll pipe up here.
> 
> Some of it, yes (for me anyway, though the question was posed to TW).
> 
> Though I find it would hurt my cause to waste my time ripping down RP, so I don't.
> 
> Provoking such actions seem irresponsible (or if not necessarily irresponsible... certainly an in the heat of debate kinda moment).


This is not directed at you, Constituent.

I think people who throw around provocative statements such as "your archist crap", or denouncing anyone and everyone here who believes in ending up with ANY government whatsoever, is irresponsible as all hell.  

We either figure out how to work together, or we will kill off any opposition to the agenda that we ALL hate.  Sometimes I wonder if that is the goal of a few around here.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> If you wanna live in that delusion, I shan't stop you.


Yeah, I know you won't.  Because it was the truth.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Based on your gang's historic track record of reducing the governments ANY. I'd say the NWO and the status quo have few if ANY worries about you.


You may not realize the fact that if not for those who have fought this crap for many years, we would have totally slid into world government long before now.  Imagine what could have been done if those sitting on the couch complaining, would've gotten up off their asses and helped. 




> No, I've read Ron's archive on LRC. You may want to do it sometime, but most probably not.


I've been reading his stuff since the late 70's.  And YOU?

----------


## Minarchy4Sale

> <B><FONT size=1>Based on your gang's historic track record of reducing the governments ANY, I'd say the NWO and the status quo have few if ANY worries about you.


And what do they have to fear from anarchists, whose rhetoric actually increases the pace at which government grows every time an anarch opens his mouth?

Im pretty sure baby jesus cries too.

----------


## Truth Warrior

> You may not realize the fact that if not for those who have fought this crap for many years, we would have totally slid into world government long before now. Imagine what could have been done if those sitting on the couch complaining, would've gotten up off their asses and helped. 
> 
> 
> I've been reading his stuff since the late 70's. And YOU?


 *Gee, I never realized that you controlled the NWO agenda and timeline.* 

*I came around to Ron later, previously I was reading better stuff.<IMHO> Mises, Hayek, Rothbard, Lefevre, etc.. Ron seems to really like several of them too.*

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Question: Do you categorize Ron Paul's words and writings as "archist crap" too?





> Answer:  No, I've read Ron's archive on LRC. You may want to do it sometime, but most probably not.


TW, I wanted to ask you more about this.  Ron Paul is not an anarchist, that's clear, yet you don't consider his writings, "archist crap".   Ron Paul IS an archiist, since he believes in a limited constitutional government, so what is it that allows you to give him an exemption from your denouncement?  

I guess I find it strange, because a whole lot of us here agree with Ron.  So, why the insults?

----------


## bossman068410

WOW

I'm sorry to get everyone so upset over this Thred.  It was a concern.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Gee, I never realized that you controlled the NWO agenda and timeline.


What's so hard to understand, TW?  If these guys are not opposed, their agenda will be implemented that much quicker.  




> I came around to Ron later, previously I was reading better stuff.<IMHO> Mises, Hayek, Rothbard, Lefevre, etc.. Ron seems to really like several of them too.


I haven't read Lefevre, but I have read quite a lot of Mises, Hayek, Bastiat, etc.  Only a couple of Rothbard's books though.

----------


## phill4paul

> WOW
> 
> I'm sorry to get everyone so upset over this Thred.  It was a concern.


 I know right? Ya shoulda sold popcorn.

----------


## micahnelson

> WOW
> 
> I'm sorry to get everyone so upset over this Thred.  It was a concern.


If something pops 40 pages of discussion i think its a decent thing.

----------


## constituent

> WOW
> 
> I'm sorry to get everyone so upset over this Thred.  It was a concern.


2009 post of the year.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> *Get there and I'll be more than THRILLED to explain it ALL to you ..... AGAIN.*
> 
> *Great question for you to answer too.<IMHO> I'm pretty confident that you find a whole lot of things strange, based on our past experiences.*


I asked you a question.  Is your response that you refuse to answer?  AGAIN.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> lol...I knew you could make a funny sometimes.   It certainly made me LOL!


Pathetic.

Really.

----------


## pcosmar

> WOW
> 
> I'm sorry to get everyone so upset over this Thred.  It was a concern.


It would be nice if it wasn't derailed with hissy fits and personality clashes.  It is a subject that deserves some discussion.

----------


## constituent

> It would be nice if it wasn't derailed with hissy fits and personality clashes.  It is a subject that deserves some discussion.


naaah, people would have stopped reading... a clean up would be cool though.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> *........*


Do you need help understanding how to use the quote button?  Is that it?  Because interspersing your replies within someone else's quote makes it very difficult to quote YOU.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> You got an inside track on their planning and implementation meetings? I really just kinda doubt that.


Straw man.

FAIL, TW.  

Try again.




> I know you haven't that's a HUGE part of the comprehension problems. You've had more than several opportunities, if you cared.


  I imagine I have read far more of the books that Ron Paul has recommended reading, than you have EVER thought about reading.  And TW, here's a lesson for you.  I wouldn't read one damn thing you suggest.  See, that's the blowback that has occurred from all your rude, antagonistic and downright insulting posts to anyone who believed differently than your anarchistic self.

Cheers.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> *You got your LOADED question, answer.*
> 
> *Answer: Great question for you to answer too.<IMHO> I'm pretty confident that you find a whole lot of things strange, based on our past experiences.*
> 
> *Not any too surprised that you don't like it AGAIN.*


You still have not answered the question, TW.  You keep dodging, like you always do.  Whatsa matter, are you scared?

----------


## LibertyEagle

> *Childish.  Of you, hardly. *


Apparently you are.  Because once again, you refused to answer a simple question.




> *We're done. *


That's right.  Tuck your tail and run away.

----------


## JK/SEA

(ahhhh....pours a shot of Petron, puts feet up.)..

next?

----------


## rockandrollsouls

> Oh, give me a break.  Moderators are human too.  The reality is that we have been allowing far too much flagrant insulting and name-calling to go on around here.  Those things are clearly against forum guidelines.  I'm sure I'm not the only Mod who has been PM'd and begged by people, who are now gone, to stop some of this BS.  We have lost many long-time members and no telling how many lurkers we have driven away.  Check this out:  http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=176045
> 
> As for using collectivism to bash all teachers and policemen, what happened to the idea of judging each INDIVIDUAL by their own actions?  Or, is that just rhetoric we use when it suits our purposes?


That's understandable, but some mods cannot abide by the rules and abuse their power or threaten to abuse it. I think you do a fine, respectable job, but RonPaulHawaii is acting like one of those power hungry cops that thinks he's untouchable and is going to get me to succumb to him through threats and abuse of that power while breaking the rules himself. That's a clear instance of the power abuse we've been railing against in this thread when comparing to cops. This is basically like a microcosm of the world. I can abide by the forum rules, but don't impose a collectivist power on me that isn't granted and think you don't have to abide by the rules, ya know? That's how I'm viewing it. If we can't take away the privilege we granted a mod that abuses that power in our own forum, a forum we like to say pushes the idea of liberty and freedom and a non abusive government, how can we convey that message outside of here?

As for the teacher issue, I haven't taken a side yet, but many teachers do not push for reform specifically because it will affect their job. They are using the "I believe in freedom and liberty except...." excuse. They are not immune. They may convey the message they are against the system, but they thrive perfectly well within it and most are not pushing to change it. However, we must also note the influence of unions in this area. Overly powerful unions have quite an influence, too.

----------


## rockandrollsouls

> It would be nice if it wasn't derailed with hissy fits and personality clashes.  It is a subject that deserves some discussion.


Well it's difficult when you're trying to have a sincere discussion and a mod like RonPaulHawaii makes it personal and derails it. If you look at my earlier posts before it got personal I expressed my sympathy for both sides of the argument and explained how you could view it from either side. I went on to say I personally believe many teachers will not rail against the system because it actually affects them. They believe in liberty and freedom and choice as long as it doesn't affect their cozy position. I do not believe all teachers are willfully ignorant. Some just believe public school is the way it's been and should be and what works and just don't know any better, but they are not immune from the fire. Keep in mind, if we are looking to change this system those that thrive by it will be fighting against us. I think we do need to change the minds of many teachers; they will be the ones to help us gain control of our education choices again.

----------


## tpreitzel

> Do you need help understanding how to use the quote button?  Is that it?  Because interspersing your replies within someone else's quote makes it very difficult to quote YOU.


How many times have I rightfully complained about that tactic?  There certainly isn't a lack of material...  How many more times does he need to be warned?

----------


## donnay

> I thought it odd when the OP posted the question Teachers and police, until I did a google search to add to a post. Then the connection became more clear.
> 
> Indoctrination
> Enforcement
> 
> It is all about control. 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8cC21jB9EE



+1776

I was only doing my job and following orders...

----------


## jmdrake

> Teachers and cops are getting paid with stolen loot. If they realize this and continue with their occupation then they are a huge source of the problem.


Private school teachers aren't.  Also most teacher  pay comes from local property taxes and sales taxes.  And while I realize that there is a fringe that feels *all* taxes are "stolen loot", recall that these types of taxes go all the way to the founding of the republic.  Also recall that Thomas Jefferson was an advocate of public schools.  What a tyrant.  

That said public schools are a local matter that should be left to the states.  And states should *not* be allowed to compel attendance in "approved schools".  On that note I've yet to meet a teacher that like the federal government takeover of schools represented that is "no child left behind".

----------


## sailor

If you see evil stand up to it. Doesn`t matter where it is.

----------


## acptulsa

> See I don't believe it can be changed, and certainly not by infiltrating it.  It needs to be removed, dissolved, destroyed, not changed.  If you want to try and change it, good luck, just don't ask me to help with what I think is impossible.


I have a question.  How many of you are here today because one teacher who cared more about you than about the damned system reached you?  I'll bet there are more than a few.

That's why people 'burrow from within' when it isn't yet possible to wipe the system out.  Do such people propigate the system by making it less unbearable or do such people help destroy the system by helping others see that there are better things?  Good question.  But consider this:  A revolution without direction can and usually does lead to more tyranny.  Consider Castro and Che.  What the hell good is a revolution where no one knows what they're fighting for?!

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Private school teachers aren't.  Also most teacher  pay comes from local property taxes and sales taxes.  And while I realize that there is a fringe that feels *all* taxes are "stolen loot", recall that these types of taxes go all the way to the founding of the republic.  Also recall that Thomas Jefferson was an advocate of public schools.  What a tyrant.  
> 
> That said public schools are a local matter that should be left to the states.  And states should *not* be allowed to compel attendance in "approved schools".  On that note I've yet to meet a teacher that like the federal government takeover of schools represented that is "no child left behind".


Yes he did.  He and I will have to disagree on that.   I bet he would change his mind if he saw it now.  No one said TJ was perfect.

----------


## acptulsa

> Yea, the teacher I was with was right there.  She also hated the a*hole parents who cared way more about petty, bickering personal $#@! they had w/ her than actually taking responsibility for their kids' future, that's what really burned her out when you get right down to it.


Sounds much like what has burned out more than a few posters to this forum, too.

----------


## acptulsa

> *Gee, I never realized that you controlled the NWO agenda and timeline.*


TW, I've seen signs that you're more intelligent than this.  Therefore, this is misdirection, obfuscation and pure bull.  She said, if people weren't fighting it the people driving the timeline would have had more success, and she was quite clear enough to be understood.  Opposition that fails to completely crush the enemy isn't necessarily useless.

So much of this thread comes down to, do we want to fight it back step by step or do we want to push it ahead until it fails completely, and enjoy all the benefits of a new Dark Ages?  Well, guess what?  The Dark Ages were full of tyranny.  The only thing they had going for them was a lack of ability on the part of that tyranny to watch everyone all the time, but just because we go back to the Dark Ages does *not* mean a thousand years' worth of Big Brother technology is going to disappear.

----------


## pcosmar

I have nothing against an educated populace. I think Thomas Jefferson had good intentions, however , what passes for public ed now would turn his stomach.

My mother was a teacher in the 50s in Canada, Taught in a one room school house in the US in the 60s and taught me to read at 4 yrs old.
I served time in the school system, and had few teachers that taught me anything.
We had a set of encyclopedias, and I spent a lot of time in libraries. I am still learning, and am more disgusted at what WAS NOT taught in schools.
She did not teach me to lie ( I fault her for that) and I have never learned to do it well. This sometimes makes me seem harsh or blunt.
It is apparent that few have watched the video I posted, It shows clearly what has happened to the school system, including revisionist history  and the purpose of the Dept of Ed.
Abolish the Public School system and start from scratch. If teachers want to teach, then teach, open a school and teach.

----------


## acptulsa

> That's understandable, but some mods cannot abide by the rules and abuse their power or threaten to abuse it. I think you do a fine, respectable job, but RonPaulHawaii is acting like one of those power hungry cops that thinks he's untouchable and is going to get me to succumb to him through threats and abuse of that power while breaking the rules himself. That's a clear instance of the power abuse we've been railing against in this thread when comparing to cops. This is basically like a microcosm of the world. I can abide by the forum rules, but don't impose a collectivist power on me that isn't granted and think you don't have to abide by the rules, ya know? That's how I'm viewing it. If we can't take away the privilege we granted a mod that abuses that power in our own forum, a forum we like to say pushes the idea of liberty and freedom and a non abusive government, how can we convey that message outside of here?


You were rude, dude.  Your rudeness prompted an equal and opposite reaction.  Can't break the laws of physics.

----------


## ronpaulhawaii

> TW doesn't like PMs or profile messages.  I learned this the hard way!  lolz


Yes, it seems he would rather flood the forum with low value material:




> + Floods of low-value material may be subject to being moved into an alternate sub-forum or deleted. More tolerance will be allowed for established members. Reason: Excessive low value posts dilute users time spent on the forum just reading topic threads.

----------


## sdczen

I will stop demonizing teachers and cops when they stop being such demons.

----------


## Kludge

> I will stop demonizing teachers and cops when they stop being such demons.


So where were you when Ron Paul supporters were discredited because "Ron Paul supporters wear tin-foil hats" or "Ron Paul supporters are racist"?

----------


## acptulsa

> I will stop demonizing teachers and cops when they stop being such demons.


Collectivist.  You _seem_ not to have read any part of this thread but the title.

----------


## sdczen

> So where were you when Ron Paul supporters were discredited because "Ron Paul supporters wear tin-foil hats" or "Ron Paul supporters are racist"?


I was wearing my tin foil hat holding my ron paul sign, silly.

----------


## sdczen

> Collectivist.  You _seem_ not to have read any part of this thread but the title.


I most certainly did read the post and the entire thread.  It got a bit old after all the tit-for-tat fighting.  I thought I would throw a bit of sarcasm into the mix.

Is calling people collectivist the big bad word now?  Someone seems a bit sensitive this morning...

----------


## donnay

Here is a lady whom is huge Ron Paul supporter.  As Jefferson once said: *"If a Nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be....If we are to guard against ignorance and remain free, it is the responsibility of every American to be informed." * 

*NO AMERICAN LEFT ALONE!*

Charlotte Iserbyt

April 12, 2002

NewsWithViews.com

President Bush's "No Child Left Behind" could be referred to as "No American Left Alone" since what we are looking at is what the National Alliance of Business, which supports "planned economy," refers to as Kindergarten through Age 80 Education/Training. This is basically the United Nations Lifelong Learning-Brainwashing Agenda under the umbrella of what will eventually be "unelected" school and community councils (council is defined as "soviet" in many dictionaries) which will make all decisions for us at the local level. Former Senator Bill Bradley, N.J., called for this on one of the Sunday morning talk shows about four years ago. The Governors, very recently at their NGA conference, discussed the use of unelected (politically-correct?) citizens to police our communities. This is so unbelievable I find it hard to even write about it. 

Although Pres. Bush, according to a Washington Times article by Bill Sammon, 1/9/02, said in regard to the education bill he signed that "Parents will have more information about the schools and more say in how their children are educated . . . from this day forward, all students will have a better chance to learn, to excel and to live out their dreams." Pardon me, but this is a plain lie, and a lie embraced by Mass. Senator Ted Kennedy and others supporting this legislation as well. How can parents have a say in how their children are educated when the federal government is man-dating testing of children's attitudes and values? (Sixty % of the test items on National Assessment of Educational Progress - NAEP are attitudinal.) Bush's mandate for testing will of course call for a mandated federal curriculum since one can't test what one hasn't taught. What tiny bit of local control remained prior to this legislation will be swept away. School superintendents and good teachers are already complaining about having lost control. 

Even the New York Times has problems with Leave No Child Behind. It bragged that the more than 1000-page giant education bill will "dramatically extend the federal role in public education" and, indeed, is "a breathtaking intrusion of the federal government on states' control of education." 

This legislation, which passed 381-41 in the House and 87-10 in the Senate in January 2002, is accompanied by the largest dollar increase ever in federal education aid. Education Week, 1/9/02, describes the No Child Left Behind Act as follows: "The mega-measure is accompanied by the largest dollar increase ever in federal education aid. The Department of Education's overall budget will rise by $6.7 billion in fiscal 2002, to nearly $49 billion." (Emphasis added) 

The legislation, although pretending to terminate the highly controversial Goals 2000 and the School-To-Work (STW) legislation passed in the nineties under President Clinton and initiated in the eighties under Presidents Reagan and Bush, Sr., actually continues the totalitarian agenda since all states have implemented the requirements of Goals 2000 and STW. Goals 2000 was originally called America 2000 under former President Bush who in addition called for implementing the Soviet system of workforce training in 1991 (See Congressional Record). This STW system calls for quotas for doctors, lawyers, janitors, etc. and limits freedom of choice for children or adults. 

Minnesota and Indiana are two of the states that mandate children choose a job/career track in the 8th grade -- just like Cuba or any other communist/socialist country! How accurate the National Alliance of Business has been to refer to this agenda as Kindergarten through Age 80 (life-long learning)! 

The system is the UN's lifelong learning (brainwashing) system called for by Lenin (a.k.a. international socialism). Very simply, such a communist system (Lenin's world government) can only be implemented when the following components have been put in place. Very sadly, to say the least, most, if not all of the following actions have taken place. They are included in my book The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America . . . a chronological paper trail.

1. CONTROL OF EDUCATION-

*The chairman of the Communist Party, U.S.A., 1932, William Foster, in his book Toward a Soviet America, called for a U.S. Dept. of Education, the teaching of evolution, elimination of nationalism and religion in schools, the teaching of internationalism, and for the use of the Pavlovian method (direct instruction) on the students, etc., etc. Note: School choice is a Trojan Horse. The only requirement left to implement school choice is tuition tax credits or vouchers which will take over the private sector. If those choice proposals do not fly in legislatures or in Congress, federally-funded charter schools will be used, as is already the case in many states, to implement the school to work planned economic system.*

2. CONTROL OF ECONOMY-

The planned economy will come to us through school to work legislation. There will be quotas for jobs; no upward mobility for children. Students must select their careers by 8th grade. It is the same as the Cuban system. STW is implemented in all states. This is the failed elitist system which brought the Soviet Union down but which is still being used worldwide. And, now our Congress has voted to implement it. How deliberately dumbed down our Congress seems to be! They don't even know what form of government and economy we are supposed to have. Of interest is that Lynne Cheney, wife of Vice President Richard Cheney, spoke eloquently, prior to the election, in opposition to the STW agenda being implemented in the United States. How sad that her advice was not sought or listened to in regard to this most controversial initiative which will result in changing our economic and political system.

3. CONTROL OF CHURCHES AND PRIVATE SCHOOLS-

The Washington Post refers to President Bush's Faith-Based Initiative as "communitarianism" which is defined in most dictionaries as "a member or supporter of a communistic community" or "a communistic form of government." The camel's nose is under the tent right now with Bush using/funding churches to "tutor" students in failing public schools. Churches which accept federal monies will be controlled by the government as in fascist/communist countries. The same federal control applies to private schools or homeschooling families who accept one penny of federal money. 

4. CONTROL OF NATION THROUGH UNELECTED COUNCILS AND DROPPING OF COUNTY, STATE, NATIONAL BORDERS-

This control takes place through regional government which was referred to by a communist writer for Daily World as the Soviet system that has "worked so well in the Soviet Union!" Regional government is being implemented worldwide. The European Community is a good example of a major region being set up for the world management system (Lenin's international socialism). Does anyone need to be reminded that unelected councils are appointed councils? Regrettably, we're getting participatory democracy. You get to participate IF chosen! 

5. CONTROL OF PHYSICAL/MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM-

The government will direct and fund health care through the schools (school-based clinics for all children regardless of income). Hilary's health care system (socialized medicine) is being implemented without a whimper from those who fought its implementation. This seamless web includes all services under the umbrella of the school district (birth through death). 

6. CONTROL OF LOCAL POLICING- 

Community monitoring will be accomplished through the Community Oriented Policing System (COPS), put in under President Clinton. His administration laid ground work for a strong community crime control strategy with federal, state, and local partnerships to fight crime. From the Clinton Administration's Law and Enforcement Strategy, March 1999, we read, "Across the country an expanded number of community police officers have been working together with block watches, neighborhood patrols, high school guidance counselors, probation and parole officers, religious groups and local businesses . . . ".  President Bush is focusing more on community policing in schools. His recently passed Patriot Act will enforce this totalitarian agenda and limit citizen resistance. Eyes will be watching over us continually!

7. PARTNERSHIPS- 

Business, education and religious partnerships with the government, pointed out above, extend the socialist/communitarianism agenda. An international conference entitled "Community Schools and Education Policy in Transition Countries During the 21st Century" was held October 9-13, 2000, in Omsk (Siberia) Russia. The goal was "to establish partnership between government education departments and the community school movement" (taken from Russian URL on Community Education.) Community Educator, out of Alaska, in the early 1970s at a Community Education conference in Washington, D.C., defined community education as the Chinese Communist system. Community education now comes under a variety of names including site-based management, regionalism, community whatever', school-based everything', lifelong anything', sustainable development, communitarianism and other terms. (For those interested in this subject, education researchers are in possession of filing cabinets loaded with community education research, and may be contacted through Iserbyt. Deliberate Dumbing Down of America also carries several important entries on Community Education.) 

8. CONTROL OF LAND- 

Environmental legislation and sustainable development efforts (beginning with the Earth Summit, Rio 1992 and now finished with Earth Charter in 2000), implement controls on the right to own and use property as one wishes. The President's Council on Sustainable Development (Clinton in 1996) helped form a joint effort between the U.S. Conference of Mayors and the National Association of Counties. They came together to form The Joint Center for Sustainable Communities. And the U.S. Conference of Mayors adopted a resolution endorsing the Earth Charter in 2001.

9. CONTROL OF BEHAVIOR USING SKINNERIAN/PAVLOVIAN-  

This psychological method is stimulus-response-stimulus dog/animal training. It has recently been referred to as the Direct Instruction method, which is failed OBE mastery learning. Direct Instruction (same as mastery learning) is now being used to teach reading and math and is especially necessary for workforce training for dumbed down "third world" skills. Skinner said "I could make a pigeon a high achiever by reinforcing it on a proper schedule." Following this reinforcement method, teachers are forced to read from a script, use hand signals as in dog training, clap their hands and, pop candies in students' mouths when they get the correct answer. President Bush is mandating this method in his legislation that calls for retraining teachers to use "scientific research based" teaching methods. 

Not only is above reward and punishment method being used in the schools, one sees it all around in our communities with citizens who conform to the government agenda receiving rewards and those who resist being ignored, isolated or punished. CHRONOLOGICAL RECORD found in The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America . . . A Chronological Paper Trail:

1930s: Chamber of Commerce plans for UN, regional government, school vouchers, etc. 

1932: William Foster, Chairman of the United States Communist Party, has his book, Toward a Soviet America published. It calls for everything that has since been implemented in our nation's schools, including the establishment of the U.S. Dept. of Education. 

1934: Carnegie Corp. plans to change America's free economic system to socialism/collectivism in the New Order. They pilot an 8-Year Study using Outcome-based Education. 

1942: Time Magazine publishes an article revealing plans for the Federal Council of Churches to implement world government. 

1945: The United Nations is created by a majority of communists. Alger Hiss and his close friend, Canadian General and psychiatrist Brock Chisholm, made statements calling for using the schools (retraining the teachers) to get rid of the conscience (right and wrong). 

1953: Congress set up the Congressional Investigation of Tax-exempt Foundations. Gaither, President of the Ford Foundation, tells Norman Dodd that foundations receive directions from White House in regards to using tax-exempt monies to change America so that it can be comfortably merged with the Soviet Union. 

1958: Eisenhower signs the first U.S.-Soviet agreements. 

1965: The Elementary and Secondary Education Act moved our pre-1960 excellent education system from academics to behavior modification and values destruction (beginning of OBE/Skinner method). 

1978: The U.S. Department of Education was created. 

1981: Due to the Chicago disaster in 1981 when one half of the Chicago inner city school children dropped out due to Benjamin Bloom's ten year mastery learning experiment on minorities, Spady et al changed the label to OBE. Thus, federal funding of OBE began in 1981. (D.I. is the new label for the failed mastery learning.) President Reagan implements public/private (corporate fascist) partnerships by creating the President's Task Force on Private Sector Initiatives. 

1982: President Reagan scheduled to meet with the developer of major Skinnerian mastery learning program in the Bronx, N.Y. 

1984: The federally funded paper entitled "Shamanistic Rituals in Effective Schools" by sociologist Brian Rowan, Spady's closest associate was presented at the annual meeting of the American Educational Research Association. It discusses conning inner city parents into believing their children are doing well by using "Effective School Research" (Pavlovian/Skinnerian ML/DI: teach to the test and manipulation of demographic statistics, etc.) Washington Post article entitled "Industrial Policy Urged for GOP" was published May 14, 1984. This article explained involvement of leading Republicans in advocating Republicans shed some of their deep-rooted antipathy to a planned economy. 

1985: U.S.-Soviet (Reagan-Gorbachev) and Carnegie-Soviet Education Agreements merged the two nations' education systems and set in motion a planned economy. 

80s and 90s: These were years of involvement of Secretaries of Education, Bell, Bennett and Alexander, and President George Bush, Sr. in America 2000. Clinton continued America 2000, implemented by Secretary Riley, under the new name, Goals 2000. 

1990s: Carnegie Corp.'s Marc Tucker, governors, corporations, etc. implemented Goals 2000 lifelong l learning out of UN and Soviet-style STW across country during nineties. 

2001: President George Bush, Jr., embraced by Senator Ted Kennedy, MA and Congressman George Miller, CA, call for passage of H.R. 1, S. 1, which completes a socialist takeover. This is the final nail in the coffin. Has anyone looked inside to see who is being buried. 

CONCLUSION-

If you want to bake a cake you usually use a recipe which calls for certain ingredients; if you want to implement international socialism (communism) one would have to take certain actions over a period of time which are clearly spelled out in the Communist Manifesto and in William Foster's "Toward a Soviet America," and in many other books and documents. Those actions constitute a "recipe" so to speak. All those requirements have been met. I've spelled them out for you: free trade, international banking system, U.S. Dept. of Ed with teaching of evolution, humanism (atheism), internationalism, and use of Pavlovian method; faith-based initiatives (communitarianism defined in dictionaries as communism) and choice to control schools and community through the tax dollar, STW to control economy (planned economy), Patriot Act to control "us" when we resist. Now I ask, "What label would you put on a system which encompassed those elements?" 

No longer can we who love America and what she stands for say "If we don't do something, such and such will happen." We are now obliged to say "International socialism has happened and the United States is a major player in this unthinkable agenda." Isn't this tragic? Americans were bamboozled when the Soviet Union fell apart, believing communism was dead, when in fact it simply leaped across the oceans. 

We were taken through what I refer to as The Four-Prong Fork, a most diabolical undertaking: 

1. GRADUALISM 

(Put a frog in cold water, heat it up gradually and he stays until he's dead). The top change agents at the UN, federal government and state government levels, including non-governmental persons and entities, have been at this game for over one hundred years. 

2. SEMANTIC DECEPTION 

This is the use of familiar, nice sounding terms, which have one meaning to good Americans and entirely different meaning to "change agents." Example: Basic skills used to mean 3R's; now it means believing in tolerance of all behavior; the need to move to an international system; the need for a new Constitution; the need for a new economic system. 

3. HEGELIAN DIALECTIC 

Create a problem; people scream; impose solution; people embrace "it" -- not realizing they have been taken to the cleaners through the deliberate creation of a problem. Example: Create high school budgets that create high property taxes which causes people to have to sell their houses and move. Then propose a solution to move funding of education from local to state level; the people embrace the idea since it lowers their property tax. However, locals have just lost all their control of schools to state, federal, and the international level. Also, dialectic includes moving from sound morals and values to situational ethics through constant discussion using group process. Pit "It's wrong to lie" against "It's OK to lie" and nearly all agree that lying is wrong. But through discussion and presentation of situations calling for compromise, one arrives at "Sometimes it's OK to lie." Then eventually, one comes to the realization it is OK to lie, or kill, or steal, or do anything else that makes one feel good anytime one feels like it. 

4. BILLIONS OF TAX DOLLARS 

Our money is spent on social engineering. Tax money is not spent on academic education as most people believe. It appears we are getting a lot of taxation and very little representation. SOLUTION (other than a tea-party) The only solution that has the remotest possibility of saving our country, outside of getting out of the United Nations, is to throw out all rascals who voted for this education legislation in the next elections. The litmus test for candidates running for Congress should be "will they work to abolish the U.S. Dept. of Education and break up that cozy, in-the-same-bed, relationship it shares with the Department of Labor and the UN?" 

Choice proposals are traps supported by multinational corporations (David Rockefeller, etc., and by top education union officials -- not teachers -- who have no allegiance to the USA and care nothing for our children's upward mobility or America itself.) Education must be returned to the local level, bypassing even state education agencies that take their orders from and receive between 60 and 80% of their operational budgets from the federal government. 

Education must be restored to its state of excellence prior to 1960 - the best education system in the world. This can be done, and must be done, if our children are going to have upward mobility and if America is going to survive as a free country. 

My book is into its third printing in two years. Barnes & Noble.com had it ranked # two in terms of sales out of 1290 books in its category of "educational change" (May 2001)

© Charlotte T. Iserbyt, All Rights Reserved

Charlotte Iserbyt is the consummate whistleblower! Iserbyt served as Senior Policy Advisor in the Office of Educational Research and Improvement (OERI), U.S. Department of Education, during the first Reagan Administration, where she first blew the whistle on a major technology initiative which would control curriculum in America's classrooms. Iserbyt is a former school board director in Camden, Maine and was co-founder and research analyst of Guardians of Education for Maine (GEM) from 1978 to 2000. She has also served in the American Red Cross on Guam and Japan during the Korean War, and in the United States Foreign Service in Belgium and in the Republic of South Africa. Iserbyt is a speaker and writer, best known for her 1985 booklet Back to Basics Reform or OBE: Skinnerian International Curriculum and her 1989 pamphlet Soviets in the Classroom: America's Latest Education Fad which  covered the details of the U.S.-Soviet and Carnegie-Soviet Education Agreements which remain in effect to this day. She is a freelance writer and has had articles published in Human Events, The Washington Times, The Bangor Daily News, and included in the record of Congressional hearings.

Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt
Author The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America...A Chronological Paper Trail.
Website: www.deliberatedumbingdown.com 
Telephone: 207-442-0543

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## pcosmar

> Collectivist.  You _seem_ not to have read any part of this thread but the title.


Someone posted that if there are no good cops or there would be no bad cops. There is some truth to this.
I have known very few "good" cops in my life, There have been a few, but they seem to be getting rare.
When I start to see a change , I will revise my position.
When I see cops who shoot unarmed people *immediately* arrested, hand cuffed and jailed.
When I see roadblocks and checkpoints ended.
When I see Judges and prosecutors held accountable, arrested and charged for Bad warrants.
When I see cops protecting and defending the constitution rather than enforcing bad law.

I won't be holding my breath waiting.

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## acptulsa

> I most certainly did read the post and the entire thread.  It got a bit old after all the tit-for-tat fighting.  I thought I would throw a bit of sarcasm into the mix.
> 
> Is calling people collectivist the big bad word now?  Someone seems a bit sensitive this morning...


Yeah, it seems to be the big bad word.  Sorry, the sarcasm went over my head I guess.

I don't know why a thread about the demonization of individuals turned into a big, fat referendum on public schools when the vast majority of us agree on the subject, but it wasn't to me a pleasant thing to see.  But it did turn into an interesting discussion on whether it's better to try to change the system for the better or to let it fall on its face and rebuild from the rubble.  At least, it was interesting in spots between the flameposts...

I hate the divisiveness but love the passion.  Don't guess there's a way to divorce them.

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## constituent

> Here is a lady whom is huge Ron Paul supporter.  As Jefferson once said: *"If a Nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be....If we are to guard against ignorance and remain free, it is the responsibility of every American to be informed." * 
> 
> *NO AMERICAN LEFT ALONE!*
> 
> Charlotte Iserbyt
> 
> April 12, 2002
> 
> NewsWithViews.com
> ...




not entirely accurate but enjoyed anyway, thanks.

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## pcosmar

I suppose it is hard to avoid collectivism when dealing with collectivist systems.
When 99% of the people involved are part of the problem the 1% that are opposed to it get caught up in the mix.
Yes there are a few good teachers in a horribly corrupt system.
Yes there are a few good cops in a Massive Police State.
It is sometimes hard to see a small tree in a large forest.

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## acptulsa

> It is sometimes hard to see a small tree in a large forest.


That's true.  But I say they're worth the effort.  Nothing could be more unjust than to condemn the good apples for staying in the barrel and somehow avoiding the rot.  And nothing could be more disheartening than to avoid the rot, yet be condemned by people who _should_ be your allies anyway.

Ever see Kubrick's first film--the one where an exceptional, dedicated, brave and decorated soldier is executed for following orders?  Ever wonder how France got so good at losing wars?

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## ronpaulhawaii

> I suppose it is hard to avoid collectivism when dealing with collectivist systems.
> When 99% of the people involved are part of the problem the 1% that are opposed to it get caught up in the mix.
> Yes there are a few good teachers in a horribly corrupt system.
> Yes there are a few good cops in a Massive Police State.
> It is sometimes hard to see a small tree in a large forest.


Is it best to clear cut the whole forest because the small tree is not worth our time?

Or to prune the biggest sun-hogs so the small tree can flourish and sow it's seeds to the wind?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvQ2JF-glvw

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## acptulsa

> * Reading for comprehension often just works absolute wonders. *


Your wife is a man?!

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## pcosmar

> Is it best to clear cut the whole forest because the small tree is not worth our time?
> 
> Or to prune the biggest sun-hogs so the small tree can flourish and sow it's seeds to the wind?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvQ2JF-glvw


Clear cut and replant. 
Or wait for the eventual fire to do it for you.

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## jmdrake

> Yes he did.  He and I will have to disagree on that.   I bet he would change his mind if he saw it now.  No one said TJ was perfect.


I bet he wouldn't.  I bet rather he would say that the federal government taking over what is clearly a *state function*  is the real problem.  Similarly there's nothing wrong with law enforcement as long as it remains a *state function*.  The problem is law enforcement has been co-opted by the feds just like education system.

The John Birch Society has a great video about the difference between a democracy and a republic that also shows the proper role of law enforcement.  "Democracy" is a posse that catches a man and votes "10 to 1" to hang him.  (The captured man is the one dissenting vote).  A republic is the sherriff riding up and demanding "You can't hang this man without a trial."

If the federal government was restricted to its proper role and you didn't want public education in your state you could dispense with it if enough of your fellow state citizens agreed with you.  People who wanted public education would be free to move to a different state.

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## ronpaulhawaii

> Clear cut and replant. 
> Or wait for the eventual fire to do it for you.


I think I understand where you are coming from, but loath cutting down the innocent. As jmdrake mentions, the problem is the fed takeover of education. While I am all for eliminating the DOE, I do not like the idea of demonizing ALL teachers because of that corruption.

As alluded to earlier, If we extrapolate the idea of clear cutting to Congress, should RP be cut down as well?

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## pcosmar

> I think I understand where you are coming from, but loath cutting down the innocent. As jmdrake mentions, the problem is the fed takeover of education. While I am all for eliminating the DOE, I do not like the idea of demonizing ALL teachers because of that corruption.
> 
> As alluded to earlier, If we extrapolate the idea of clear cutting to Congress, should RP be cut down as well?


Ah, now we are getting into dangerous territory.
I have a deep appreciation for Ron Paul, and a few others. However, the unfortunate reality is that they have been quite infective in stopping the direction that this country( and the world for that matter) is going. 
The congress is all but irrelevant. TPTB are moving along with their plans. We are witnessing an open declaration of a New World Order and a global governance.

We will soon have little choice in the matter.
Options will be to accept slavery, or not.
NOT, will get messy.

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## donnay

> not entirely accurate but enjoyed anyway, thanks.



You're welcome...however, just out of curiosity what is not accurate?

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## acptulsa

> Ah, now we are getting into dangerous territory.


Well, it is.  As soon as justice goes out the window, the incentive to do things right goes with it.  The French Army in WWI executed a brave, decorated soldier to boost morale and couldn't understand how morale went down the toilet.  The Soviet Union stole from hard workers and couldn't understand why no one would work hard any more.  The U.S. government rewards banks for failing, then can't understand why the banks seem intent on failing.  And now we're to demonize people for fighting the system from within?  I just don't see how that injustice could possibly ever help our cause.

Are we about dividing, defining 'us' and 'them', and doing what we hate?  Or are we about justice for the individual being the secret to the nation's strength?  Principle won't save us if we abandon our principles--and we will no longer stand out in the American political landscape.  Where's the percentage in that?

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## ronpaulhawaii

I have just taken a chainsaw to this thread. The mod que is absolutely filled with flags over it. Please stay on topic, refrain from low value posts, and insults - thanks

tyrannically yours

rph

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## pcosmar

> Principle won't save us if we abandon our principles--*and we will no longer stand out in the American political landscape*.



What landscape? America of the past has just been made irrelevant.
Who are our representatives to the UN? 

You seem to suffer under the mistaken belief in a representative Government. That has long been dead. Or are we still going on pretense?

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## acptulsa

> What landscape? America of the past has just been made irrelevant.
> Who are our representatives to the UN? 
> 
> You seem to suffer under the mistaken belief in a representative Government. That has long been dead. Or are we still going on pretense?


Only republics have political landscapes?




> tyrannically yours


The Hawaii Chainsaw Massacre, lol.  I believe we have you to thank?  If so, thank you very much.  And tell anyone who feels differently I have cheese to go with their whine.

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## heavenlyboy34

> I bet he wouldn't.  I bet rather he would say that the federal government taking over what is clearly a *state function*  is the real problem.  Similarly there's nothing wrong with law enforcement as long as it remains a *state function*.  The problem is law enforcement has been co-opted by the feds just like education system.
> 
> The John Birch Society has a great video about the difference between a democracy and a republic that also shows the proper role of law enforcement.  "Democracy" is a posse that catches a man and votes "10 to 1" to hang him.  (The captured man is the one dissenting vote).  A republic is the sherriff riding up and demanding "You can't hang this man without a trial."
> *
> If the federal government was restricted to its proper role and you didn't want public education in your state you could dispense with it if enough of your fellow state citizens agreed with you.  People who wanted public education would be free to move to a different state.*


The government designed the system to *prevent* that-like a typical archist "system".  (see G. Edward Griffin) I am endlessly amused at how you continue to look for solutions to the problem from the generator of the problem.  Cognitive dissonance is a bitch, eh?  LMFAO!!

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## LibertyEagle

> The government designed the system to *prevent* that-like a typical archist "system".  (see G. Edward Griffin) I am endlessly amused at how you continue to look for solutions to the problem from the generator of the problem.  Cognitive dissonance is a bitch, eh?  LMFAO!!


Debate the topic without throwing insults, or don't respond at all.

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## acptulsa

> The government designed the system to *prevent* that-like a typical archist "system".  (see G. Edward Griffin) I am endlessly amused at how you continue to look for solutions to the problem from the generator of the problem.  Cognitive dissonance is a bitch, eh?  LMFAO!!


Setting the insults aside (TW taught you well; are you sure you really want to follow in those footsteps?) you fail to answer the question:  If a republic is a slow slide to tyranny, how do you prevent either a democracy (rule by mob) or an anarchy--even a voluntaryist anarchy (rule by the strongest) from being a fast slide to tyranny?  Seriously?

Our represenatives can't be trusted but we can?  How do you figure?  Unless you really believe they're all reptilians, that is.

Cognative dissonance indeed.

Either pure democracy or anarchy (not that there's a great deal of difference, it all comes down to who can persuade the biggest mob) still suffers from the same problem as a republic--people can be misled and psychos have reason to try to do it.  At least a Constitutional republic has some way of, one helping people see who the thieves are (if they will only look) and, two, structures designed to stop or slow the degradation...

Edit.  Damn it--I bit the bait and now we have the 3,472,644th anarchy thread.  Silly me...

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## pcosmar

> Only republics have political landscapes?
> 
> .


Welcome to the New World Order.
It is not a republic.

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## acptulsa

> Welcome to the New World Order.
> It is not a republic.


Well, I didn't say it was, did I?  I just said it had a political landscape.

x2  x2

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## heavenlyboy34

> Setting the insults aside* (TW taught you well; are you sure you really want to follow in those footsteps?)*.


FWIW, I learned the insulting rhetoric from a number of members here (some of them mods )-not just TW.  Experience shows that it gets a point across with certain folks who have difficulty otherwise.  I only bring that trick out once in a while.   I don't have time to adequately address your other points now.  I'll do that later.  

ttyl,
HB34.

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## constituent

> If a republic is a slow slide to tyranny, how do you prevent either a democracy (rule by mob) or an anarchy--even a voluntaryist anarchy (rule by the strongest) from being a fast slide to tyranny?  Seriously?


By standing up to those seeking to oppress you, those seeking to rob you for your own good.  Government and the "well-meaning" "patriots" who legitimize it, the subservient mindset that perpetuates its growth and encourages continued participation in the rigged game, create (and monopolize) a force so great (yet so diffuse) that the individual is left nearly powerless swimming against the tide of popular opinion... so they don't.  

The whole "an" anarchy discussion aside...





> Our represenatives can't be trusted but we can?  How do you figure?



Who said _we_ can?  At least then maybe people'd stop pretending that we could ever trust either.





[
What does all of this have to do w/ Teachers/Cops again?
]

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## Bman

> FWIW, I learned the insulting rhetoric from a number of members here (some of them mods )-not just TW.  Experience shows that it gets a point across with certain folks who have difficulty otherwise.  I only bring that trick out once in a while.   I don't have time to adequately address your other points now.  I'll do that later.  
> 
> ttyl,
> HB34.


I do not agree.  When you give insults you have for the most part 2 outcomes.

1.) The other person just walks away because they are done dealing with you.  You won nothing they just don't deal with people who throw out insults.

2.) The person starts throwing back insults and pretty much everyone involved looks like a child.

Now sometimes I do prefer the later.  Becasue even though I look adolescent, I know the other is too stupid to realize that if I don't respond it doesn't mean that I've been defeated.

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## Xenophage

I respond very poorly to insults.  I'm rather pensive and open to reasonable discussion, but as soon as someone disrespects me in a conversation I lose all respect for them as well.

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## LibForestPaul

When teachers call for school vouchers, ya'all let me know.  I'll turn on the boob tube when I see them march on Washington to dissolve the Dept of Education. And the AFT.

Hold your breathes, I sure it is coming REAL soon. HEHE

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## LibForestPaul

As far as alienating teachers. Depends what was said and how it was said.

i.e. "Good for nothing lazy sobs" probably not the proper method to approach people with when educating them that they are part of a corrupt system that is detrimental to this great nation.

But pointing out how useless Dept of Ed is, how public education steals from the youngest most vulnerable members of society...etc...oh well, truth sometimes leaves a bitter taste in ones mind.

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## lucius

//

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## Kludge

> When teachers call for school vouchers, ya'all let me know.  I'll turn on the boob tube when I see them march on Washington to dissolve the Dept of Education. And the AFT.
> 
> Hold your breathes, I sure it is coming REAL soon. HEHE





> As far as alienating teachers. Depends what was said and how it was said.
> 
> i.e. "Good for nothing lazy sobs" probably not the proper method to approach people with when educating them that they are part of a corrupt system that is detrimental to this great nation.
> 
> But pointing out how useless Dept of Ed is, how public education steals from the youngest most vulnerable members of society...etc...oh well, truth sometimes leaves a bitter taste in ones mind.


I don't think you're very familiar with commonly-held opinions of teachers. The Teachers' Union (NEA) has spoken publicly against one-size-fits-all public education, and the NCLB Act(src). I think it'd be quite a challenge for you to find a teacher who actually supports the NCLB Act.

I have actually been granted permission to speak (multiple times) at school district board meetings to speak as a student. I once did speak against nationalized education (including the department of education), and the board's response was very sympathetic.

Let's just think about what socialized education has done to schools. Schools aren't allowed to let kids leave school early if their schedule isn't filled, textbooks need to be approved by the DoE to ensure they are PC and in-line with the Department's nationalist agenda, education is mandatory, so schools need to deal with kids who don't want to be there, teachers aren't permitted to strike due to unfair contracts/treatment, and districts' budgets fluctuate constantly and unpredictably due to arbitrary pay rules from the NCLB Act and budget cuts (and stimuluses) from the state/federal government.

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## Anti Federalist

///

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## CaptainAmerica

> [rph -edit, I have just gone through the thread with a chainsaw and did my best to clean out the offtopic, low value, insulting posts. My apologies if I cut too deeply in places]
> 
> 
> STOP Demonizing Teachers and Cops.
> 
> Let's go on the Ron Paul Blow back principal.
> 
> When at the Campaign for Liberty I brought a very smart history teacher with me.  I have opened her eyes to the bull$#@! between the whole REP & DEM Hypocrisy thing and she came with an open mind.  After several of the speakers trashed teachers then at the lunch a few of the members trashing teachers she closed her mind and had a bitter Taste about the whole thing.  Next time when you are speaking in public or to others think about how you turned away a potential supporter.
> 
> ...


good cops.... right. I think I've had enough of that statement. There are only less violent cops, it doesn't mean their participation is good.

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## CrissyNY

wow, there are a lot of banned members

AND

i think its fine to demonize teachers and cops...it evens out all the sanctifying of them so many people engage in

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## presence

I have no problem with private school teachers and non deputized security.

$#@! cops and I won't let my kid near a public school.

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## JK/SEA

comparing teachers to cops?...

lol..

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## Christian Liberty

> comparing teachers to cops?...
> 
> lol..


I agree.  Some teachers are really awful with brainwashing, but they are not inherently violent.

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## JK/SEA

> I agree.  Some teachers are really awful with brainwashing, but they are not inherently violent.


i know this teacher on a personal level. I can assure you, she neither brainwashes, or gets violent...unless of course i leave the toilet seat up...

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## CaptainAmerica

Where are the good cops in this video? please explain, out of 10 or more cops where is a single good one? nope. dont buy it anymore,just because someone claims to be good doesnt mean they have good will to stop something wrong when its within their ability/authority and power to do so. This is why I cannot believe anymore that there is such thing, because complacency and silence, willfully taking the goose step side by side isnt good.

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## RonPaulIsGreat

You can't really take a person that speaks of "liberty" and "freedom" seriously, who is collecting a pay check that is wholly funded by involuntary taxation. It's ridiculous. It's like believing an upper middle class kid that listens to rap occasionally is a gangster. Sure, they know the words, and put on some hip hop styled overpriced clothes, and like to play pretend but in "reality" they are what they really are. Simple as that.

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## JK/SEA

> You can't really take a person that speaks of "liberty" and "freedom" seriously, who is collecting a pay check that is wholly funded by involuntary taxation. It's ridiculous. It's like believing an upper middle class kid that listens to rap occasionally is a gangster. Sure, they know the words, and put on some hip hop styled overpriced clothes, and like to play pretend but in "reality" they are what they really are. Simple as that.



are you talking about Ron and Rand?

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## RonPaulIsGreat

> are you talking about Ron and Rand?


The older I get, the more I think I might be.

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## JK/SEA

> The older I get, the more I think I might be.


how were the Founders compensated?...

i could look it up i suppose....

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## Christian Liberty

> how were the Founders compensated?...
> 
> i could look it up i suppose....


Slave labor?






> You can't really take a person that speaks of "liberty" and "freedom" seriously, who is collecting a pay check that is wholly funded by involuntary taxation. It's ridiculous. It's like believing an upper middle class kid that listens to rap occasionally is a gangster. Sure, they know the words, and put on some hip hop styled overpriced clothes, and like to play pretend but in "reality" they are what they really are. Simple as that.


http://archive.lewrockwell.com/block/block175.html

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## RonPaulIsGreat

> how were the Founders compensated?...
> 
> i could look it up i suppose....


I'm for the total removal of all coercive government. I don't admire the founding fathers.

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## Christian Liberty

BTW: Ron Paul actually tried to get his own salary drooped to 39,000 dollars a year.  And, Ron is a minarchist, so from that standpoint, that's perfectly reasonable.

Rand, on the other hand, isn't a libertarian at all, just an incremental improvement.  I don't see any point in worrying about his philosophical consistency.

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## Christian Liberty

> I'm for the total removal of all coercive government. I don't admire the founding fathers.



I do somewhat admire some of them, but its checked...

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## JK/SEA

curious...should my 4th grade teacher wife stop injecting bits of our history with regards to the founders and Constitution into her daily teaching time?

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## idiom

> *The cops and teachers are willingly working WITHIN the current "system". That makes them PART of the TYRANNY problem.<IMHO>*


Who is paying them to work within the system?

The Taxation is voluntary.

You don't have to get your income that low to be a net drain on the government.

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## Todd

> You can't really take a person that speaks of "liberty" and "freedom" seriously, who is collecting a pay check that is wholly funded by involuntary taxation. It's ridiculous. It's like believing an upper middle class kid that listens to rap occasionally is a gangster. Sure, they know the words, and put on some hip hop styled overpriced clothes, and like to play pretend but in "reality" they are what they really are. Simple as that.


That's a similar belief to the one that the media suggesting that Ron Paul was a hypocrite because he wasn't against earmarks because he padded the budgets with earmarks for his district.   The system is what we have, and unfortunately you have to work in that system or else you are inefective.

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## Ronin Truth

It might help out immensly if teachers and cops would just stop *being* demons.  Just a thought.

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## PaulConventionWV

Did anyone notice that this thread is 5 years old?

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## Todd

> Did anyone notice that this thread is 5 years old?


Yep.  Alot of fun posters no longer with us are in this thread.

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## Henry Rogue

> Who is paying them to work within the system?
> 
> The Taxation is voluntary.
> 
> You don't have to get your income that low to be a net drain on the government.


  Taxation is voluntary? What are you babbling about?

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## JK/SEA

> It might help out immensly if teachers and cops would just stop *being* demons.  Just a thought.


are you saying my  Teacher wife is a demon?....

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## JK/SEA

> Did anyone notice that this thread is 5 years old?



AF bumped it.

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## JK/SEA

> Yep.  Alot of fun posters no longer with us are in this thread.



not sure, but i think LE was still a mod then...

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## Ronin Truth

> i know this teacher on a personal level. I can assure you, she neither brainwashes, or gets violent...unless of course i leave the toilet seat up...


 My wife and I have recently discovered the joy and beauty of separate bathrooms, after many years of struggle.

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## Christian Liberty

> curious...should my 4th grade teacher wife stop injecting bits of our history with regards to the founders and Constitution into her daily teaching time?


No.  I think that's a great idea actually.  Starting the process of getting people to think about libety is a wonderful thing.

My 4th grade teacher was an idiot.  She didn't even know (historically speaking) who won the civil war...  I knew that before age 9...

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## fisharmor

> The system is what we have, and unfortunately you have to work in that system or else you are inefective.


Uh-huh.

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