# Lifestyles & Discussion > Privacy & Data Security >  Yes, your "smart meter" will spy on you.

## Anti Federalist

Here's that kooky, fringe, conspiracy outfit National Geographic:

*the information collected by smart meters could reveal how many people live in a home, their daily routines, changes in those routines, what types of electronic equipment are in the home, and other details.*




*Privacy Concerns Persist as Smart Meters Roll Out*

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...meter-privacy/

Christina Nunez

For National Geographic News

Published December 12, 2012

Energy consultant Craig Miller, who spends much of his time working to make the smart grid a reality, got a jolt when he mentioned his work to a new acquaintance. The man, who happened to be a lineman at a Pennsylvania utility, responded earnestly:  "Smart meters are a plot by Obama to spy on us."


The encounter was a disheartening sign of the challenge ahead for proponents of the smart grid, who say that the technology can help the industry meet power demand, fix problems faster, and help consumers lower their electricity bills. Advocates of such a 21st-century grid are learning that they need to take privacy concerns seriously. Though smart meters are not, in fact, a domestic espionage scheme, they do raise questions: In a world where households start talking with the power grid, what exactly will be revealed? And who will be listening? (See related quiz: "What You Don't Know About Electricity.")

The term "smart grid" encompasses an array of technologies that can be implemented at various points along the line of transmission from power plant to electricity user, but for many consumers, it is symbolized by one thing: the smart meter.  A majority of U.S. states have begun deploying the wireless meters, which can send electricity usage information from a household back to the utility remotely at frequent intervals. According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, more than 36 million smart meters were installed across the nation as of August 2012, covering about a quarter of all electrical customers. In the European Union, only 10 percent of households have smart meters but they are being deployed rapidly to meet an EU mandate that the technology reach 80 percent of households by 2020.

Because smart meters can provide real-time readings of household energy use instead of the familiar monthly figures most customers now see in their electric bills, the devices offer a new opportunity for consumers to learn more about their own power use and save money. But the ability to track a household's energy use multiple times a day also presents some unsettling possibilities. In theory, the information collected by smart meters could reveal how many people live in a home, their daily routines, changes in those routines, what types of electronic equipment are in the home, and other details. "It's not hard to imagine a divorce lawyer subpoenaing this information, an insurance company interpreting the data in a way that allows it to penalize customers, or criminals intercepting the information to plan a burglary," the private nonprofit Electronic Frontier Foundation noted in a blog post about smart meters. (Related: "Pictures: The Energy Drain of Recreational Drugs")

The European Union's data protection watchdog warned earlier this year that smart meters, while bringing significant potential benefits, also could be used track whether families "are away on holiday or at work, if someone uses a specific medical device or a baby-monitor, how they like to spend their free time and so on." The European Data Protection Supervisor urged that member states provide the public with more information on how the data is being handled. (Related: "The 21st Century Grid")

A State-by-State Effort

As with many of the rules governing utility operations, regulations to address privacy concerns in the United States are currently embedded in a patchwork of state laws and public utility commission policy.  Most experts point to California as a leader: Last year, the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) adopted rules governing access to, and usage of, customer data. The state has also passed legislation that requires utilities to obtain the customer's consent for release of their information to any third party. The CPUC was involved in producing a comprehensive report on privacy with the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) that summarizes, often in chilling detail, the many ways in which privacy breaches could occur on the smart grid, and recommends best practices for preventing those breaches. "As Smart Grid implementations collect more granular, detailed, and potentially personal information, this information may reveal business activities, manufacturing procedures, and personal activities in a given location," the NIST report said.

George Arnold, national coordinator for smart grid interoperability at NIST, points out that many of these privacy and security issues have been dealt with in the health care and telecommunications sectors, for example. "Protecting the privacy of the information [on the smart grid] has been taken very seriously. . . . I think it's a good news story that policymakers recognize the importance, and both policy and technical tools are well in hand to deal with this," Arnold said.  (See related photos: "World's Worst Power Outages.")

But no existing federal or state laws can be counted on to protect consumers' utility data as smart meters are rolled out across the country. At least one utility in California argued early on that it was subject to a number of existing laws that would address privacy concerns, according to Jim Dempsey of the Center for Democracy and Technology, which worked with the CPUC on its privacy framework. However, Dempsey's group found that no single law provided a clear answer regarding utility data, and that a new set of rules was necessary. "Almost every state has some kind of [privacy] law already," Dempsey said. "But the point is, those laws predate the smart grid, and they do not really account for the complexity of the smart-grid ecosystem."

With other statesincluding Colorado, Maine, and Texasnow formulating policy on smart meters, a consensus is emerging. Jules Polonetsky of the Future of Privacy Forum, which advocates for responsible handling of consumer data, says there is general agreement that utilities should have rules that govern how they can use smart meter data, and that a customer should be able to know and have access to the data being collected. Still, Polonetsky points out that as energy-saving applications and devices (such as the Nest wireless thermostat) proliferate, state privacy frameworks may have limited power. Utility access to data is restricted, but "some device that I buy and I activate may not be subject to utility regulations," Polonetsky said. His organization has introduced a privacy seal for companies that handle smart-grid data, with the goal of highlighting companies that are being proactive about privacy.

Resistance to smart meters in some areas, though confined to a small fraction of utility customers, has been vociferous enough that a handful of communities have declared moratoriums on installations. The city of Ojai, California, for example, declared such a moratorium in May, though it is effectively unenforceable. In Texas, one woman pulled a gun on a utility employee who was trying to install a smart meter. Beyond privacy issues, many smart-meter opponents cite fear of exposure to radio frequency waves, even though radio frequency exposure from smart meters falls "substantially below the protective limits set by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) for the general public," according to a study from the Electric Power Research Institute, the nonprofit research organization funded by the electric power industry. (Related: "Putting a (Smiley) Face on Energy Savings")

Some states, including California and Maine, which has the highest penetration rate in the country for advanced meters, have allowed residents to opt out of smart-meter installation. So far, few customers have done so: In California, according to Chris Villarreal of the CPUC, the opt-out rate was less than half of one percent. The Texas Public Utility Commission is currently weighing whether or not to allow customers to opt out.

Miller, the energy consultant, has been working on a $68 million effort partially funded by the U.S. Department of Energy to implement smart-grid technology with rural electric cooperatives. He said many of the concerns about smart meter privacy run counter to how utilities actually operate. "The utilities go through all kinds of effort to reduce the amount of information they get," he said. "They see no advantage [in] collecting data with no operational value. If the data did not allow you [as a utility] to make a better decision about the operation of your grid, then there's no reason for a utility to collect it, and they won't."

High Ambitions, Low Public Awareness


Protecting homeowner data from interested outsiders will be crucial for the electric industry as it seeks customer buy-in on the smart grid, but the real challenge may lie in boosting the interest of homeowners themselves. "Our research shows that consumers generally overwhelmingly are unaware of the smart grid [and smart meters] and don't even know what those terms mean," said Patty Durand, executive director of the Smart Grid Consumer Collaborative (SGCC), a nonprofit dedicated to consumer education about the smart grid.


In most cases, the utility notifies the customer that the smart meter is coming, swaps in the new meter, and recovers the cost of deployment through a slight rate adjustment, so a homeowner may have little involvement in the installation process. That decreases the likelihood that a homeowner will understand what the smart meter does or how it is beneficial. (Related: "Smart Meters Take Bite Out of Electricity Theft")

"For the longest time, the relationship between the utility and the customer has been, 'Here's the power and you can pay for it'," said Villarreal of the CPUC. "Now with smart grid and smart meters, we're asking the customers to get more involved and providing them with a lot more information, and now they're starting to ask questions."

Villarreal said that not all utilities have been quick to embrace a world that demands more of a dialogue with customers. In response to the notion of posting a privacy policy, one utility representative from another part of the country told him, " 'We don't want to do that, because we don't want customers calling us and asking us questions about it.' That's not a very proactive response to working with your customers. You're probably just raising the ire of customers more than solving the problem," he said.

California's public utilities have learned to employ robust communication strategies for smart-meter rollouts. San Diego Gas and Electric (SDG&E) sent out at least five notifications to customers leading up to installations. "I think that really helped, because it wasn't like it was somebody knocking on the door," said Caroline Winn, SDG&E's vice president of customer services and chief customer privacy officer. "People weren't surprised to get the smart meter when we installed them."

While a combination of proactive communication and opt-out policies can help prevent customer confusion and minimize backlash against smart-meter rollouts, utilities have the long-term task of making sure that they add value for both customers and themselves. Some benefits involve little or no customer engagement: Smart meters can tell utilities, for example, when outages occur and help generate outage maps for customers (in the analog days, the utility didn't know about an outage unless a customer called).

Other aspects of smart meters involve more attention from a household. Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E), which has installed 9.1 million smart meters across northern and central California at a total cost of $2.2 billion, has experimented with a variety of methods for getting customers more interested in their data. "We deploy reporting with your bill that shows you your usage compared to your neighbor's, and that's highly motivating for some people," said PG&E Chief Information Officer Karen Austin.

PG&E's other programs include rate incentives for energy conservation during peak times, text messages that alert customers when their electricity usage crosses into a new pricing tier, and participation in the Green Button Initiative, which allows people to download their energy-usage information in a standardized format. The goal is to create a level of engagement with energy-usage data among consumers that has barely existed before. Ultimately, the hope is that when consumers see how much energy they use, they can try to use less.

"The utilities have been challenged with not properly educating consumers and not understanding who their consumers are, because they've never had to," said Durand of the SGCC. "In the past, it's been a one-way relationship . . . but those days are over." (Related: "Can Hurricane Sandy Shed Light on Curbing Power Outages?")

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## CaptUSA

You know, as an expert in this arena, I find this to be one of the most sensible articles written on this subject.

Too many articles are opinion pieces based on propaganda; this article lays out my fears pretty well.

I have one additional fear that this article doesn't contemplate, though.  I fear that when the government is not satisfied with how people use their electric, they will begin to dictate to them how to use it.  Right now, they dictate the carrot to get people to comply - when that doesn't work, they'll bring out the stick.

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## Anti Federalist

I was hoping you'd check in on this.

Thanks, I appreciate the input.




> You know, as an expert in this arena, I find this to be one of the most sensible articles written on this subject.
> 
> Too many articles are opinion pieces based on propaganda; this article lays out my fears pretty well.
> 
> I have one additional fear that this article doesn't contemplate, though.  I fear that when the government is not satisfied with how people use their electric, they will begin to dictate to them how to use it.  Right now, they dictate the carrot to get people to comply - when that doesn't work, they'll bring out the stick.

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## RickyJ

The solution to this problem is simple. Cold fusion generators.

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## dannno

As I said on the other thread about light bulbs, my electric bill went up significantly and inexplicably after they installed a smart meter on my house. I'm pissed and have no idea what to do, I really wish there was some market competition.

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## thoughtomator

> The solution to this problem is simple. Cold fusion generators.


Or we could try something that's already been proven to work, like Tesla's free energy machine. I can't imagine that with enough resources we couldn't reproduce it.

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## erowe1

> Though smart meters are not, in fact, a domestic espionage scheme
> 
> ....
> 
> In theory, the information collected by smart meters could reveal how many people live in a home, their daily routines, changes in those routines, what types of electronic equipment are in the home, and other details.


What kind of blind trust in the government must one have to be able to say both of these things?

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## Lucille

> As I said on the other thread about light bulbs, my electric bill went up significantly and inexplicably after they installed a smart meter on my house. I'm pissed and have no idea what to do, I really wish there was some market competition.


Depending on what town you live in, you might be able to have it removed.

Especially if you're having health problems:




> (In California) If you suspect you have health problems related to the installation of Smart Meters:  file a complaint with your utility and follow up with a CPUC Complaint. Also contact the California Department of Public Health (CDPH):   SmartMeter@cdph.ca.gov


APS and SRP will remove them if requested...for now.

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## CaptUSA

> As I said on the other thread about light bulbs, my electric bill went up significantly and inexplicably after they installed a smart meter on my house. I'm pissed and have no idea what to do, I really wish there was some market competition.


Could be several reasons:
1. Your old meter may have been running slow.  - When the old mechanical meters age, they begin to slow down.  Power companies do random sampling to make sure meters are recording correctly.  They almost never run too fast (I have heard it's possible, but have never seen a case of it.)

2.  You used to be billed on the register and now you're billed on intervals. - Depending on the billing method of your company, they may decide to use intervals.  Instead of figuring how much you used in a month and applying a price to it, they apply a price to every 15 (or 5, 10, or hour) interval and then add up the sums of all of the intervals.  Because of rounding, this could change your bills.  Most companies have complex billing routines to prevent this, but it is possible.

3.  You have a surcharge now because of your smart meter.  - Sometimes, this is billed into the rates.  (Depending on the state, utilities are allowed to recover the cost of the programs)  Compare your old bills and new bills to see where the increase is.  Is it generation?  Distribution?  Maybe generation rates have changed?

4.  You have an appliance that is increasing your usage. - most people do not realize it until they see an increase in their bill, but it happens ALL the time.  If it coincides with a meter change, the customer is likely to blame the meter.


There could be other reasons, but these are the first I'd check.  The new meters are pretty accurate.  They've usually undergone several QC tests prior to being set and the margin of erro on those tests is quite low.

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## Deborah K

I'm researching getting off the grid, does anyone have an opinion about this website?  http://power4patriots.com/  And if there is an emp, does it blow out your inverter?  Do you need a faraday box for your system?

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## whoisjohngalt

I work for a REP (Retail Electric Provider) in Texas, which is "deregulated".  I find these fears to be completely unfounded.  Smart meters are a beautiful invention of capitalism not something invented by the government for spying purposes.  I can imagine their use being twisted for evil by the government in places that are not deregulated, but this is no different than the "guns kill people" argument.  Don't blame the technology, blame the person abusing it.  

Before smart meters, customers with bad credit had to enroll in prepaid plans with super high rates and wildly inaccurate estimations of power consumption.  It was a nightmare for customer and provider alike.  The other option was incredibly high rate month to month post paid plans with massive deposits.  Try telling all the people who can now get deposit free, no credit check, reasonable rate electricity about the dangers of smart meters.  Again, I don't know about places that aren't deregulated, but you are never forced into a smart meter plan just because you have one installed down here in the Lone Star.

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## Deborah K

> I work for a REP (Retail Electric Provider) in Texas, which is "deregulated".  I find these fears to be completely unfounded.  Smart meters are a beautiful invention of capitalism not something invented by the government for spying purposes.  I can imagine their use being twisted for evil by the government in places that are not deregulated, but this is no different than the "guns kill people" argument.  Don't blame the technology, blame the person abusing it.  
> 
> Before smart meters, customers with bad credit had to enroll in prepaid plans with super high rates and wildly inaccurate estimations of power consumption.  It was a nightmare for customer and provider alike.  The other option was incredibly high rate month to month post paid plans with massive deposits.  Try telling all the people who can now get deposit free, no credit check, reasonable rate electricity about the dangers of smart meters.  Again, I don't know about places that aren't deregulated, but you are never forced into a smart meter plan just because you have one installed down here in the Lone Star.


This is confusing, how does a smart meter help someone with bad credit?

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## whoisjohngalt

> This is confusing, how does a smart meter help someone with bad credit?


Consumption is measured daily so there is no billing process.  Our basic smart plan is put $50 down, we give you $25 in free power.  You then have a $75 credit from which your daily consumption is subtracted each day.  You are warned when your account gets low and shut off once the balance drops below $10.  No reason to run a credit check as the power is all prepaid.  When the TDSPs did monthly meter reads, the REP had to estimate monthly usage based on historical and true ups were only done every 3 to 6 months, resulting in gigantic (sometimes up to $1000) credits and debits on the account.

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## Deborah K

> Consumption is measured daily so there is no billing process.  Our basic smart plan is put $50 down, we give you $25 in free power.  You then have a $75 credit from which your daily consumption is subtracted each day.  You are warned when your account gets low and shut off once the balance drops below $10.  No reason to run a credit check as the power is all prepaid.  When the TDSPs did monthly meter reads, the REP had to estimate monthly usage based on historical and true ups were only done every 3 to 6 months, resulting in gigantic (sometimes up to $1000) credits and debits on the account.


OIC.  Thnx.  I never knew they did credit checks for electricity, I don't understand it, if you don't pay, they shut you off, why do they need to do a credit check?

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## Anti Federalist

Power is a government regulated monopoly.

I do not have the free market choice to have a duplicate set of power lines run just to my house.

These units have the ability to record and analyze entirely too much private information that goes on in my home.

I do not have the option of just shutting off the power either, in many places that will get you condemned and your property seized.

They are, in fact, a government enabled spy device.




> I work for a REP (Retail Electric Provider) in Texas, which is "deregulated".  I find these fears to be completely unfounded.  Smart meters are a beautiful invention of capitalism not something invented by the government for spying purposes.  I can imagine their use being twisted for evil by the government in places that are not deregulated, but this is no different than the "guns kill people" argument.  Don't blame the technology, blame the person abusing it.  
> 
> Before smart meters, customers with bad credit had to enroll in prepaid plans with super high rates and wildly inaccurate estimations of power consumption.  It was a nightmare for customer and provider alike.  The other option was incredibly high rate month to month post paid plans with massive deposits.  Try telling all the people who can now get deposit free, no credit check, reasonable rate electricity about the dangers of smart meters.  Again, I don't know about places that aren't deregulated, but you are never forced into a smart meter plan just because you have one installed down here in the Lone Star.

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## whoisjohngalt

> OIC.  Thnx.  I never knew they did credit checks for electricity, I don't understand it, if you don't pay, they shut you off, why do they need to do a credit check?


Because you use the electricity before you pay for it.  How else can they know what to charge you?  There are some other instances like when you sit down at a restaurant you eat before paying for the food, but in that case cost can be tabulated and charged immediately.  It's not practical or possible for the TDSPs to check usage daily.  Smart meter is the technology that allows instantaneous transmission of consumption data.  In the olden days, the TDSP had to make the rounds each month and read the meters manually.

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## Deborah K

> Because you use the electricity before you pay for it.  How else can they know what to charge you?



I thought if you were a new customer they charged you a deposit in the range of the historical usage for the dwelling?  And, when you paid 12 months on time, you got your dep. back.  At any rate, credit checks are starting to seem more like background checks.  It's getting ridiculous.  Why in the hell should anyone have to give their ss# to an electric co. or any other utility co.?  That's messed up.

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## whoisjohngalt

> Power is a government regulated monopoly.
> 
> I do not have the free market choice to have a duplicate set of power lines run just to my house.
> 
> These units have the ability to record and analyze entirely too much private information that goes on in my home.
> 
> I do not have the option of just shutting off the power either, in many places that will get you condemned and your property seized.
> 
> They are, in fact, a government enabled spy device.


The government doesn't run the lines.  Not in Texas at least.  The "private companies" that do, TDSPs (Transmission and Distribution Service Providers), do have a government protected monopoly, but the government only has access to aggregate data legally.  They are even talking about getting rid of the PUC (Public Utilities Commission), the government organization that supposedly protects the consumers from the evil, private, for-profit REPs.  If they are intercepting any usage data, its being done illegally.  We have to get signed documentation from the potential customer to even get their historical usage from the TDSPs.  It is private information. 

And you don't have to have power flowed  from these lines.  In fact, if you don't pay for the power, you won't for very long.

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## whoisjohngalt

> I thought if you were a new customer they charged you a deposit in the range of the historical usage for the dwelling?  And, when you paid 12 months on time, you got your dep. back.  At any rate, credit checks are starting to seem more like background checks.  It's getting ridiculous.  Why in the hell should anyone have to give their ss# to an electric co. or any other utility co.?  That's messed up.


You don't have to.  It's a voluntary exchange.  The incentive is a much better rate and the ability to pay for your power after consuming it.  Historical usage is not available without the customer's consent, as I just mentioned.  How the company wants to run its deposit policy is entirely up to that company.

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## Deborah K

> You don't have to.  It's a voluntary exchange.  *The incentive is a much better rate and the ability to pay for your power after consuming it. * Historical usage is not available without the customer's consent, as I just mentioned.  How the company wants to run its deposit policy is entirely up to that company.


That's where they get you - always!  By making it unreasonable, economically, to refrain from giving them your ss#.  No wonder there's so much ID theft....

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## whoisjohngalt

> That's where they get you - always!  By making it unreasonable, economically, to refrain from giving them your ss#.  No wonder there's so much ID theft....


It's unreasonable, economically, for the company not to ensure that you are going to pay for your electricity.  Also, the government places moratoriums in certain situations (i.e. temps over 100 degrees for three consecutive days) in which customers can not be disconnected regardless of whether they are paying or not.  If you had any idea how much bad debt is written off by electricity companies even with the given measures, you would understand the need for credit checks or a massive deposit/prepayment.  I once worked for an REP that didn't run credit checks.  They are no longer in business.

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## donnay



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## paulbot24

> It's unreasonable, economically, for the company not to ensure that you are going to pay for your electricity.  Also, the government places moratoriums in certain situations (i.e. temps over 100 degrees for three consecutive days) in which customers can not be disconnected regardless of whether they are paying or not.  If you had any idea how much bad debt is written off by electricity companies even with the given measures, you would understand the need for credit checks or a massive deposit/prepayment.  I once worked for an REP that didn't run credit checks.  They are no longer in business.


Sorry. I will never weep for a utility company that I MUST use or I get evicted that gives me no options. They are always pricks to deal with. Always.

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## Deborah K

> *It's unreasonable, economically, for the company not to ensure that you are going to pay for your electricity*.  Also, the government places moratoriums in certain situations (i.e. temps over 100 degrees for three consecutive days) in which customers can not be disconnected regardless of whether they are paying or not.  If you had any idea how much bad debt is written off by electricity companies even with the given measures, you would understand the need for credit checks or a massive deposit/prepayment.  I once worked for an REP that didn't run credit checks.  They are no longer in business.


Well, like I stated, a deposit for the amount of the going monthly rate, and shutting them off for non-payment would take care of that.  It wouldn't be difficult for them to pull up the previous resident's billing records to find what the average monthly usage was, and I'm not understanding why you say they need the consumer's permission when it's the company's billing records they're pulling up.  This all sounds fishy to me.

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## whoisjohngalt

> Sorry. I will never weep for a utility company that I MUST use or I get evicted that gives me no options. They are always pricks to deal with. Always.


TEXAS IS DEREGULATED.  You are free to choose your provider.  Did you read any of the previous comments?  We are a private company; the market is very competitive.  I repeatedly clarified that all my knowledge pertained only to the situation in Texas.

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## Anti Federalist

> If they are intercepting any usage data, its being done illegally.  We have to get signed documentation from the potential customer to even get their historical usage from the TDSPs.  It is private information.


Every jamoke that comes down the pike, looking to fold, spindle and mutilate my life into some database and put me under surveillance, from doctors to banksters to employers to the everfucking government tells me the same thing, "It's private, there are protections in place, relax, you're being paranoid".

And lo and behold months or years later, we find out that is *not* the case, we've been under intense surveillance all along, and it's too late to do anything about it.

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## Deborah K

> TEXAS IS DEREGULATED.  You are free to choose your provider.  Did you read any of the previous comments?  We are a private company; the market is very competitive.  I repeatedly clarified that all my knowledge pertained only to the situation in Texas.


I'm sure Paulbot is referring to the co. he/she deals with.

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## Tpoints

> TEXAS IS DEREGULATED.  You are free to choose your provider.  Did you read any of the previous comments?  We are a private company; the market is very competitive.  I repeatedly clarified that all my knowledge pertained only to the situation in Texas.


yeah , but that's not good enough, every single American regardless of his age, income and location is entitled to competition cheap electricity as guaranteed by the Constitution and Declaration of Independence.

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## whoisjohngalt

> Well, like I stated, a deposit for the amount of the going monthly rate, and shutting them off for non-payment would take care of that.  It wouldn't be difficult for them to pull up the previous resident's billing records to find what the average monthly usage was, and I'm not understanding why you say they need the consumer's permission when it's the company's billing records they're pulling up.  This all sounds fishy to me.


Sure, if our company provided service to the previous customer we could look at private billing.  Odds that we were the utility of choice for the prior resident is much less than 1%.  The companies that run the lines ARE NOT the REPs, which actually flow the power.  

Usage varies greatly by habits of the consumer; residence is a weak indicator.  Do they go to work or do they stay home all day and run air conditioner/electric heat constantly?  Some people have to set their thermostat at 72 in the summer; some people tolerate temperature swings as much as possible .  The difference between 76 and 72 in kWh in the summer is massive.  Do they use all kinds of electronics or are they Amish?  

Power changes prices seasonally and must be bought from generators so there is no monthly going rate.  A deposit that would cover an entire month of usage in March wouldn't cover a week in July.  You must simultaneously charge a deposit that will hedge against non-payment but isn't big enough to drive them away.  

The entire situation is incredibly complex and has so many moving parts.  Your solution is incredibly oversimplified and simply doesn't work.

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## presence

You could use the grid to trickle charge a 12v battery bank, then invert your power in complete privacy.  Might cost $5000 for the average home without 220 devices, maybe 10k for a total electric situation; just a thought though.  Basically off grid solar without the panels; you could convert to solar down the line.


also, Prepaid-PPA is an option for folks (in some areas) that have no credit; not that it stops the spying.

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## Tpoints

> Do they go to work or do they stay home all day and run air conditioner/electric heat constantly?  Some people have to set their thermostat at 72 in the summer; some people tolerate temperature swings as much as possible .


that's none of your business, they are entitled to cheap electricity no matter how much they use.

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## Deborah K

> The entire situation is incredibly complex and has so many moving parts.  Your solution is incredibly oversimplified and simply doesn't work.


In the situation, where the electric cos have a monopoly, it's not "incredibly oversimplified" at all.

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## whoisjohngalt

> Every jamoke that comes down the pike, looking to fold, spindle and mutilate my life into some database and put me under surveillance, from doctors to banksters to employers to the everfucking government tells me the same thing, "It's private, there are protections in place, relax, you're being paranoid".
> 
> And lo and behold months or years later, we find out that is *not* the case, we've been under intense surveillance all along, and it's too late to do anything about it.


OK, so go off the grid like Massie did.  Again, if it's being done, it's being done illegally.  It's bull$#@! to say that because they can parse data daily to get a better picture that its more intrusive then getting the information monthly.  It's more efficient.  It is capitalism.  If you fear the technology, don't incorporate it.  No shame in being a Ludite, but the thing that you are typing on right now is a far better tool for the government to spy on you with than a smart meter.

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## Deborah K

> I'm researching getting off the grid, does anyone have an opinion about this website?  http://power4patriots.com/  And if there is an emp, does it blow out your inverter?  Do you need a faraday box for your system?


Can anyone here answer this for me?

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## whoisjohngalt

> In the situation, where the electric cos have a monopoly, it's not "incredibly oversimplified" at all.


No doubt, but electric grids across America are being deregulated and soon the government monopolies will be a thing of the past.  It is the TDSPs that actually install the smart meters and they are supposed to get consent.  I don't work for a TDSP so I don't know how the whole process works, but from a customer and provider perspective, it's a brilliant and useful technology.

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## presence

> Can anyone here answer this for me?


Nothing with any kind of circuitry will survive EMP if any connected component extends outside of a well grounded faraday.  Best bet to survive EMP would be to have a complete secondary NIB system in faraday waiting for the day.  On that day gut your bad electronics; leave your good wires, then plug in the faraday stored new equipment that survived.  Any electronics, connected even to a local grid that exists outside of faraday, is going to be fried because that local grid is not shielded and will carry current to the equipment, even if that equipment is shielded.  Not sure if I'm making sense.

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## Kotin

> I was hoping you'd check in on this.
> 
> Thanks, I appreciate the input.


the leash will always become the lash.

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## dannno

> TEXAS IS DEREGULATED.  You are free to choose your provider.  Did you read any of the previous comments?  We are a private company; the market is very competitive.  I repeatedly clarified that all my knowledge pertained only to the situation in Texas.


Are you charging $.33/KWH?

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## whoisjohngalt

> Are you charging $.33/KWH?


Rates vary and you have the Effective Rate vs the base energy rate.
Effective Rate range is anywhere from $.10 to $.20 per kwh. Avg is around $.13.
Base rates range from $.07 to $.17.  Avg around $.10.

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## CaptUSA

whoisjohngalt, I think deregulated distribution is pretty rare.  Generation, yes.  Even transmission.  But distribution?  I suspect your company has a pretty low customer count.  In my state, generation has been deregulated (I call it re-regulated since it's still managed, but there is a little competition now), but distribution is heavily regulated.  And smart meters here are not something the free market thought up, it's something we are being mandated to do.  It would not be cost-effective to do this on our own.  We've looked at it for years and followed the technology, but could never justify spending our dollars on it.  But then the State mandated that we do it, so costs are out the window.

If smart metering were economically sound, and the company did it on their own, I'd have a different view of things.  The technology is pretty cool, but it's also pretty scary.  Our proposed estimation algorithms for each 15 minute interval are astounding.  When the state doesn't get their expected results, I foresee some serious concerns.

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## dannno

> Rates vary and you have the Effective Rate vs the base energy rate.
> Effective Rate range is anywhere from $.10 to $.20 per kwh. Avg is around $.13.
> Base rates range from $.07 to $.17.  Avg around $.10.


I pay almost $.30/kwh average and up to $.33/kwh for the top tier rate.

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## presence

> I pay almost $.30/kwh average and up to $.33/kwh for the top tier rate.







> danno
> Location:   CA

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## Deborah K

Here's what we can expect as we transition from the energy monopoly beasts to off-the-grid clean energy patriots:  http://articles.latimes.com/2012/nov...solar-20121118

Thanks Paulbot, for the article.

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## CaptUSA

I'm not sure who created this map, but there are errors with it.  I recognize glaring mistakes in PA.

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## dannno

> 


That shows west texas and NJ as having higher electricity costs than CA. I dunno about that, though there are a lot of low-income programs and such here so maybe that is part of it.

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## Anti Federalist

> the leash will always become the lash.


And nothing more needs to be said.

Everybody defends "their" technology as being the coolest thing since sliced bread, and because they are partisans, look upon anybody that denounces it as a backward thinking Luddite.

They always fail to see, in their visionary furor, how this technology will all integrate into a massive surveillance web that enslave us just as surely as iron chains.

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## Deborah K

> Nothing with any kind of circuitry will survive EMP if any connected component extends outside of a well grounded faraday.  Best bet to survive EMP would be to have a complete secondary NIB system in faraday waiting for the day.  On that day gut your bad electronics; leave your good wires, then plug in the faraday stored new equipment that survived.  Any electronics, connected even to a local grid that exists outside of faraday, is going to be fried because that local grid is not shielded and will carry current to the equipment, even if that equipment is shielded.  Not sure if I'm making sense.


Yeah, I get what you're saying. Basically anything electronic needs a faraday cage.  We've got several aluminum cans that we use for feed and I'm thinking about using those as faraday boxes for our HAMs and other important equipment.  I guess in the case of an inverter and deep-cell batteries, etc.  we'll need to build the shed we store them into a faraday.  And of course, have plenty of spare parts for the turbines, etc like alternators and so on, and store them in faradays too.  ughhhh

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## CaptUSA

> And nothing more needs to be said.
> 
> Everybody defends "their" technology as being the coolest thing since sliced bread, and because they are partisans, look upon anybody that denounces it as a backward thinking Luddite.
> 
> They always fail to see, in their visionary furor, how this technology will all integrate into a massive surveillance web that enslave us just as surely as iron chains.


AF, I hope you don't think I'm doing that.  I always try to separate fact from fiction.  It is pretty cool what the technology can do, but I don't like it one bit.  I don't fear the health concerns, but the privacy concerns are all too serious!

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## presence

> Here's that *kooky, fringe, conspiracy outfit* National Geographic:


Actually, have you caught any episodes of "Nat Geo *Doomsday Preppers*"  ?

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## whoisjohngalt

> whoisjohngalt, I think deregulated distribution is pretty rare.  Generation, yes.  Even transmission.  But distribution?  I suspect your company has a pretty low customer count.  In my state, generation has been deregulated (I call it re-regulated since it's still managed, but there is a little competition now), but distribution is heavily regulated.  And smart meters here are not something the free market thought up, it's something we are being mandated to do.  It would not be cost-effective to do this on our own.  We've looked at it for years and followed the technology, but could never justify spending our dollars on it.  But then the State mandated that we do it, so costs are out the window.
> 
> If smart metering were economically sound, and the company did it on their own, I'd have a different view of things.  The technology is pretty cool, but it's also pretty scary.  Our proposed estimation algorithms for each 15 minute interval are astounding.  When the state doesn't get their expected results, I foresee some serious concerns.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deregul...tricity_market

Transmission & Distribution are synonymous from my perspective.  It might be a semantics issue.  The REPs and TDSPs were split when the market was deregulated.  We buy the power from generators, pay the TDSPs to transmit the power, but we are the one's contracting with the customer to provide them power.  That is why we are called RETAIL electric providers; we are the only method through which customers can interface with the generators and transmission companies.  There are a few non dereg zones because they opted out, notably Austin and San Antonio, but with their rates being far less competitive that won't last much longer.

We don't have many customers because we are relatively new, but there are plenty REPs with massive customer counts who operate no differently than us.  I'm not sure I understand your point in that regard.

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## whoisjohngalt

> And nothing more needs to be said.
> 
> Everybody defends "their" technology as being the coolest thing since sliced bread, and because they are partisans, look upon anybody that denounces it as a backward thinking Luddite.
> 
> They always fail to see, in their visionary furor, how this technology will all integrate into a massive surveillance web that enslave us just as surely as iron chains.


...says the man using a computer

I said there is nothing wrong with being a Luddite.  Reading comprehension problem?

It's not about the technology being "cool".  It's about making the market place better for the customer and the business.  Should you be allowed to opt out of having a smart meter installed? Of course.  You shouldn't be forced to do anything, ever.  Your fears are still unfounded though.

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## Tpoints

> It's unreasonable, economically, for the company not to ensure that you are going to pay for your electricity.  Also, the government places moratoriums in certain situations (i.e. temps over 100 degrees for three consecutive days) in which customers can not be disconnected regardless of whether they are paying or not.  If you had any idea how much bad debt is written off by electricity companies even with the given measures, you would understand the need for credit checks or a massive deposit/prepayment.  I once worked for an REP that didn't run credit checks.  They are no longer in business.


according to her, "the market will solve it all" or, if it doesn't "too bad".

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## Deborah K

> according to her, "the market will solve it all" or, if it doesn't "too bad".


Say wut?

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## Tpoints

> Say wut?


oh, you don't believe that?

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## nobody's_hero

> And nothing more needs to be said.
> 
> Everybody defends "their" technology as being the coolest thing since sliced bread, and because they are partisans, look upon anybody that denounces it as a backward thinking Luddite.
> 
> They always fail to see, in their visionary furor, how this technology will all integrate into a massive surveillance web that enslave us just as surely as iron chains.


Throw it in the woods.

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## Anti Federalist

> AF, I hope you don't think I'm doing that.  I always try to separate fact from fiction.  It is pretty cool what the technology can do, but I don't like it one bit.  I don't fear the health concerns, but the privacy concerns are all too serious!


No, not at all, it was just a general reference to people, nobody in particular.

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## Anti Federalist

> Throw it in the woods.


God Damn Right!

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## Deborah K

> oh, you don't believe that?


Of course not!  I'm a statist, damnit!

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## Matt Collins



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## Matt Collins

> As I said on the other thread about light bulbs, my electric bill went up significantly and inexplicably after they installed a smart meter on my house. I'm pissed and have no idea what to do, I really wish there was some market competition.


Do what Thomas Massie does and generate your own power: http://massiehouse.blogspot.com/2007...lar-power.html

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## Matt Collins

> You don't have to.  It's a voluntary exchange.


Try running your own power lines in your neighborhood and see what happens.

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## whoisjohngalt

> Try running your own power lines in your neighborhood and see what happens.


Nothing would happen.  Of course, its a completely imaginary scenario.  You would have to have millions upon millions of dollars for the construction and have to get easements for every single piece of land your lines would cross.  It's not worth discussing.

Way to take something completely out of context, as the voluntary exchange comment was about a customer giving information to the REP to have their credit run.  Neither the customer or REP has anything to do with the lines.

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## Anti Federalist

> Every jamoke that comes down the pike, looking to fold, spindle and mutilate my life into some database and put me under surveillance, from doctors to banksters to employers to the everfucking government tells me the same thing, "It's private, there are protections in place, relax, you're being paranoid".
> 
> And lo and behold months or years later, we find out that is *not* the case, we've been under intense surveillance all along, and it's too late to do anything about it.




*CRS Report for Congress
Prepared for Members and Committees of Congress
Smart Meter Data: Privacy and Cybersecurity* 

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42338.pdf

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## Deborah K

AF, I just got a really disturbing message when I clicked on this link you posted:  https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42338.pdf

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## Natural Citizen

> AF, I just got a really disturbing message when I clicked on this link you posted:  https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42338.pdf


So, what was the message, Deborah K? Jiminy crickets, woman. The suspense is killing me. Makes me want to clickit.

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## GunnyFreedom

> AF, I just got a really disturbing message when I clicked on this link you posted:  https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42338.pdf


That's really not as disturbing as you think.  Usually it just means that someone has chosen not to pay or cannot pay to maintain certificates verifying their identity.  Certificate Authorities are more often than not a bureaucratic hassle.  It is only a well trafficked site prone to hacking and spoofing that legitimately needs an up to date certificate authority, and CA's cost money.  Sometimes lots of money.  So of the org you are accessing is on a shoe-string and trying to do it all themselves, do not be surprised to find expired CA's on their domains.

If you are not 100% certain about the source, then just be extra careful, disable stuff like flash maye Java, and certainly system calls like ActiveX.  Do not download or install anything from their site.  If you don't want to be security conscious on that level, then avoid sites with expired CA's.

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## GunnyFreedom

> So, what was the message, Deborah K? Jiminy crickets, woman. The suspense is killing me. Makes me want to clickit.


It's just an expired certificate.  I just blew past the warning and loaded the pdf anyway.

Mind you, I chide users all the time for blowing past warnings without knowing what they are, but I know what an expired certificate is.  All it really means is you are accessing via HTTP instead of HTTPS.

Check it out, if you use http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42338.pdf instead of https, they you don't get the warning at all. 

If you aren't passing along passwords, logins, credit card numbers and such, then don't worry about it.

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## Deborah K

> That's really not as disturbing as you think.  Usually it just means that someone has chosen not to pay or cannot pay to maintain certificates verifying their identity.  Certificate Authorities are more often than not a bureaucratic hassle.  It is only a well trafficked site prone to hacking and spoofing that legitimately needs an up to date certificate authority, and CA's cost money.  Sometimes lots of money.  So of the org you are accessing is on a shoe-string and trying to do it all themselves, do not be surprised to find expired CA's on their domains.
> 
> If you are not 100% certain about the source, then just be extra careful, disable stuff like flash maye Java, and certainly system calls like ActiveX.  Do not download or install anything from their site.  If you don't want to be security conscious on that level, then avoid sites with expired CA's.




It scareded meee......

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## Natural Citizen

> It's just an expired certificate.  I just blew past the warning and loaded the pdf anyway.
> 
> Mind you, I chide users all the time for blowing past warnings without knowing what they are, but I know what an expired certificate is.  All it really means is you are accessing via HTTP instead of HTTPS.
> 
> Check it out, if you use http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42338.pdf instead of https, they you don't get the warning at all. 
> 
> If you aren't passing along passwords, logins, credit card numbers and such, then don't worry about it.


Oh. Well, thanks. I didn't download it anyhow just because I have a pretty good idea of how the smart meter technology functions.

On a side note, is there a difference between an expired certificate and an unknown certificate?

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## Anti Federalist

Fixee Linkee

Thanks Gunny!

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## Carson

I just had a weird power outage.

The first thing I noticed was a florescent ceiling light half way working. I figured a bulb was out. I went to use the microwave and the light was dim and wasn't getting enough power to fire up.

I got out a volt meter and that circuit showed about 70 volts. The other kitchen circuits showed 122 volts. Then while I was gearing up to rewire the apartment all of the power went out.

I checked the neighbors and theirs was out too.

Called the landlord and they said it was with PG&E.

A short while later the power came back on and the circuit was back up to 110 and working.

A while back the landlord came in and installed new receptacles. I'm wondering if PG&E can now brown out individual circuits. I did some Google Foo and came up with nothing. Well nothing but a lot of people freaking out about smart meters. Nothing though on individual circuits.

Freaky.

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## Anti Federalist

Might have a GFC protector getting ready to go out.




> I just had a weird power outage.
> 
> The first thing I noticed was a florescent ceiling light half way working. I figured a bulb was out. I went to use the microwave and the light was dim and wasn't getting enough power to fire up.
> 
> I got out a volt meter and that circuit showed about 70 volts. The other kitchen circuits showed 122 volts. Then while I was gearing up to rewire the apartment all of the power went out.
> 
> I checked the neighbors and theirs was out too.
> 
> Called the landlord and they said it was with PG&E.
> ...

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## tod evans

> I'm wondering if PG&E can now brown out individual circuits.


Absolutely not.

Their control ends at their meter, the property owner is responsible for all wiring and devices down line of their meter.

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## Carson

> Might have a GFC protector getting ready to go out.


I went ahead and tried resetting one of the outlets on the circuit that was acting funny. It has one of those Ground Fault Protection buttons like they use now near sinks.

Anyway like I said the light and outlets started working after PG&E brought the power back up. Still I suppose it should be looked at.

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## Carson

> I'm wondering if PG&E can now brown out individual circuits.





> Absolutely not.
> 
> Their control ends at their meter, the property owner is responsible for all wiring and devices down line of their meter.


I would think so,,,but then it is only a matter of time till they can.

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## CPUd

> *CRS Report for Congress
> Prepared for Members and Committees of Congress
> Smart Meter Data: Privacy and Cybersecurity* 
> 
> http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42338.pdf


I know someone who worked on a similar study; there is a bigger issue with these meters- one of their selling points is that you can go online to see your usage, but (depending on who/where you are dealing with) the sites that host the data can be wide open, so anyone else can, too.  Someone could study a whole neighborhood over time and find the best time to hit.

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## shakey1

I thought this was innaresting...




> *The Power of  Liability*According to Beaulieu, social justice can be  obtained by exercising the power within the body of rules and principles  codified in modern commerce, which is a descendant of what's known as "Law  Merchant." This can offer a highly effective lawful strategy to prevent and  reverse the installation of a smart meter in your home and community. 
> It involves holding corporate executives and  government agents financially accountable for their decisions. Cal Washington, co-founder  of the InPower Movement, is an "empowerment advocate" who has spent several  years fighting for justice for people who have been abused by corruption within  the justice system.
> Is it possible to hold corporate individuals  accountable for their actions? Yes, it is, "and this has the potential to  change everything," del Sol Beaulieu notes, within his Episode 1. "The next 40 minutes  is an overview of how this works." Washington summarizes the Notice of Liability  action he's developed, which del Sol Beaulieu is sharing with the world through their film  and website, as follows:
> _"It's basically a counter-offer [to the] contract that is being  implemented to put a device on everybody's house. They've got us into a tacit  agreement. This [Notice of Liability document] clarifies and expresses the  counter-offer in such a way that those who don't want the meter can say 'I don't  want a meter,' and if [the power company] does put a meter on the house it's  going to cost [them] X amount of dollars per day  in order for you to carry  out this contract."_ In other words, you are currently in a contract  with your power company. By changing your analog meter to a smart meter, they  are changing the contract and you have to agree to this change in terms.  However, codified in commerce there's something known as tacit agreement  an  agreement that is implied or understood without being directly expressed. Unless  you object, you have tacitly agreed to this change in terms. As noted by  Washington, "If you don't say no, you've said yes."
> By understanding that the installation of smart  meters is a commercial contract issued to you by your utility company, you  level the playing field. All you're doing is entering into a contract  negotiation. "All the tricks they use against you, we use against them,"  Washington says. 
> *Notice of Liability*According to Washington, anyone can issue a Notice  of Liability at any time, whether you still have an analog meter or have  already received a smart meter and/or have tacitly agreed to the new meter. The  "Notice of Liability" generally applies worldwide, as it is based on the system  of commerce that governs corporate commerce everywhere. This is a system that virtually  none of the general public is aware of, "and now you can actually use it,"  Washington says. "You're now playing the proper game in the proper court."
> Importantly, the Notice of Liability lays  accountability at the feet of an individual. Corporate employees and agents can  no longer hide behind their corporate post where they have no personal  accountability. This includes government employees as well, because the U.S.  government is actually run as and functions as a corporation. As noted in the  film, the U.S. code defines the United States as a federal corporation, and  Canada is listed as a company located in Washington D.C. on the U.S. securities  and exchange.   
> *Understanding  Corporate Jurisdiction*In the film, Washington explains a key  misunderstanding relating to jurisdiction. To explain the crux of the problem,  he offers the following analogy: You're hired as an employee in the auto  department at Walmart. When hired, you agree to a basic contract that  stipulates that you will work a certain number of hours for a certain pay. One  day, your manager asks you to come in to work at 2 a.m.  a time when the store  is closed. 
> While the auto department manager has  jurisdiction over you, he's under the jurisdiction of the store manager. Hence,  you can file a complaint with the store manager, notifying her that what you're  being asked to do goes against company policy. 
> ...


http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...t_rid=46339815

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