# Lifestyles & Discussion > Personal Security & Defense >  Preparing for the PAW (Post Apocalyptic World)

## GunnyFreedom

Preparing for the PAW (Post Apocalyptic World)

Preparing for the PAW is neither cheap nor easy.  As in all things, you can be frugal or you can be lavish.  There is no one set of equipment and foodstuffs, but rather a set of basic principles to abide by in the preparation which can be addressed frugally or expensively.  These principles can be laid out in segments as follows:

Bugging In/Bugging Out
Medical
Food
Weapons
Ammunition
Communications and
Misc Equipment

If the descriptions of the categories below begin to seem overwhelming, remember what I said in the first paragraph up top -- you can either do this frugally or expensively.  You can set up a very very basic PAW kit which includes ALL of these categories for under $1,000; or you can go all out and drop $250,000 or more into it and still have many more things left that you can do to further prepare.  The important part is recognizing the categories and addressing the various concerns in each one.

*OVERVIEW OF CATEGORIES*

*Bugging In/Bugging Out*

First and foremost, bugging in and bugging out.  Depending on what kind of shyt hits what kind of fan, will determine whether you stay put, or whether you head for the hills.  Sitting it out in "fortress home" is called bugging in, and heading for the hills is called bugging out.  Bugging out uses supplies and equipment you have on hand at home, while the primary component of bugging out is called a "bug out bag" or BOB.  Bugging out can be as simple as a regular military style ALICE pack with some food clothing and ammo, and a good set of hiking boots, or it can be as fancy as a Bug Out Vehicle (BOV) rigged out like Mad Max with supplemental fuel tanks and so on.

*Medical*

Medical preparedness is important.  You will probably not have access to the hospital in the PAW, so a good first aid kit is imperative.  Even better, a fully stocked combat corpman's kit along with some paramedic training is a very good idea.

*Food*

Food storage is also important.  When the world goes to hell in a handbasket, you aren't likely to find goodies at your local Wal Mart.  Food stores tend to fall into 3 categories -- MRE's, Canned and/or freeze dried long term food stores, and bulk commodity foodstuffs.  MRE's can be had military surplus, and will store longer than 10 years if kept under 60 degrees.  MRE's can be had less expensively as knock-offs and are nearly as good, but MRE's are damn expensive.  One year's supply for one person can run into the $5000 range.  Canned long term food stores can be had with shelf lifes from 5 years to 100 years, and tend to be less expensive, one year for one person running around $1000 to $2000.  Commodity foodstuffs include rice, wheat flour, dried beans etc, and are the cheapest of the lot, one year for one person coming in at $200 to $500.  Your best bet is a combination of the three.  Some MRE's for the BOB/BOV and anytime you may be out of the house for an extended period of weeks or months; some canned meats and vegetables, and some commodities.

*Weapons*

Weapons will be very important.  Do not underestimate the utility of the .22 rifle!  you can get 1000 rounds of .22 LR for $20 and they don't make a whole lot of noise (which draws a lot of attention!)  The .22 is perfect for hunting small game, and it is quite frankly stupid to shoot a rabbit or a squirrel with a high powered rifle.  You should have a .22 and around 5000 rounds of .22 LR and if you are not squeamish about cleaning rabbits or snake, then you will never starve.  A decent pistol 9mm or better to help you fight your way back to your main battle rifle, and then a rifle in 5.56, .308 or .30-06 

*Ammunition*

Ammunition -- you should have an ammo store on hand to feed your weapons, and a bench for reloading.  Brass, while it is good to have extra, is not as crucial as you can collect your own brass to reload.  You must have powder, primers, and projectiles, however.  Because .22 LR cannot really be reloaded, you will want a full supply on hand.  Say 5000 to 10,000 rounds.  Any marksmanship training you need to do in the PAW can be done with the .22, and rounds for that rifle are cheap cheap cheap.  You'll want about 500 to 700 pistol rounds, plus dies for reloading, and 2,000 to 3,000 rounds for your main battle rifle, plus dies for reloading.

*Communications and*

Communications covers items like short wave radios, and maybe even amateur radio setups.  If you plan on working together in groups in the PAW, then some handsets might be a good idea.  Handsets may be a good idea just for family members.  If the power goes out, don't forget that you may want the ability to recharge your handsets by solar energy, or dynamo energy.  An exercise bicycle can be retrofit pretty easily to generate electricity by foot-power.  The crucial aspect will be storage batteries and transformers/converters.

*Misc Equipment*

Miscellaneous equipment is really the catch all.  A gas mask is a good idea, a tactical vest, lanterns, flashlights, maybe a generator, a kerosine heater, water purification equipment, a propane cook stove, and lots of other miscellany.  This includes field kit, canteens, ammo pouches, butt packs, load bearing gear; combat kit like flack vests or bulletproof vests, trauma plates, and survival/camping gear.  



Details in subsequent posts

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## josephadel_3

Water purification is very important.  Once the utilities go out, water will be in dire shortage.  Go to your local outdoors or camping gear store and pick up a water filter and some water purification tablets.  Water is more important than food.  Also buy quite a few of those giant poland spring water dispensers.

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## GunnyFreedom

> *Bugging In/Bugging Out*
> 
> First and foremost, bugging in and bugging out.  Depending on what kind of shyt hits what kind of fan, will determine whether you stay put, or whether you head for the hills.  Sitting it out in "fortress home" is called bugging in, and heading for the hills is called bugging out.  Bugging out uses supplies and equipment you have on hand at home, while the primary component of bugging out is called a "bug out bag" or BOB.  Bugging out can be as simple as a regular military style ALICE pack with some food clothing and ammo, and a good set of hiking boots, or it can be as fancy as a Bug Out Vehicle (BOV) rigged out like Mad Max with supplemental fuel tanks and so on.


The immediate response to an apocalyptic event of any sort, is _bugging_.  There are a lot of factors which determine if you need to _bug in_ or to _bug out_.

If you are deep in the heart of a city, then you are more likely to need to bug out, and if you are waaay out in the sticks, then you are more likely to want to bug in.  If you are very talkative about your preparations, and you let everyone and their brothers know that you are ready for the PAW, then chances are you will eventually have to bug out, or fend off hundreds of starving people who just know you have food in there.

*BUGGING OUT*

The basic and most important element of bugging, is called the _Bug Out Bag_ or BOB.  This could be any sort of back pack for easy traveling on foot, and it's purpose is so that you can just pick it up and *GO* if something catastrophic happens, and know without doubt that you will be able to survive for a week without any kind of resupply whatsoever.

*Bug Out Bag (BOB)*

Your BOB should contain something like:

Space Blanket or Sleeping Bag
Several large plastic garbage bags
3 Pair of boot socks
3 Pair of underwear and t-shirts
Vinyl large poncho
Leather shooting/work gloves
Bandana
Pair of well-worn hiking boots
20 ft para cord
Large Cold Steel Bush knife
Swiss Army knife
Cold Steel entrenching tool
Sharpening stone
Compass
Flashlight (possibly crank powered)
First Aid kit
Gas mask
Personal toiletries, including (but not limited to):
Soap
Washcloth
DEET
Sunscreen
Three MRE's
Six "power bars"
Water Bottle, 1.5 liter
Water purification tablets
Repair kit
Duct tape
20-lifeboat matches
Plastic matchsafe with strike anywhere matches
Flint and steel
Tinder
100 rounds of rifle ammo
50 rounds of pistol 
Minimal weapons cleaning kit

*Bug Out Vehicle (BOV)*

If you have more money to spend, and think that walking is for the birds, you can also invest in a _Bug Out Vehicle_ or BOV.  A BOV is a lot more dynamic than a BOB, however, and depending on the scenario you face and the location you are in, could be anything from the "I don't want to be seen" ubiquitous Ford Taurus or older Honda Accord, to a serious off-road package truck or SUV.

In either case, you want your BOV stocked with supplies similar to the BOB, but more of them.  Plus a basic tool kit, a firearm, more food and ammo, camping supplies like a tent and camping stove, a full camping kit including foam/air mattresses, tarps, fold out chairs and tables.

You can also hold more clothing in a BOV, and should have supplies to wash clothes in a river should the need arise.  Enough line to string up a clothes line is a good idea.

When you set up a BOV, it is a good idea to include an additional fuel cell/supplemental fuel tanks, and all the supplies your vehicle might need, oil, antifreeze, coolant, transmission fluid, brake fluid, window washer fluid, 4 spare tires if possible.

Probably the most important thing is the most expensive:  Supplemental fuel tanks.  You can certainly get by with 4 5 gallon fuel cans, but your ultimate goal here is to at least double your vehicles fuel capacity, and thus your range without stopping for gas.

*Bug Out Location (BOL)*

When bugging out, you really don't want to just head out to the woods and hang around waiting for your supplies to run out.  If you do that, you are really just delaying the inevitable.  Plan ahead now to have somewhere to bug out TO.  the best idea (although not cheap!) is some backwater cabin out in the mountains without power and maybe without roads, and certainly without a postal address.

Minor BOL plans will take you to a remote location where you may have food, weapons, and ammo buried in a secret location, and you can plan on finding shelter from there.  Major BOL plans could have you setting up a land/home package through shell companies in Montana or Alaska.

A BOL should at minimum be some kind of basic rally point for your family and those who will be weathering the PAW with you, and should have the means to stock/hide additional supplies.  If all you can come up with for a BOL is a spot in the wilderness which you can locate readily, then think of ways to bury things without ruining them.  A 3" ID PVC pipe with caps securely clued to one end, and threaded with pipe tape on the other end can be completely sealed from humidity, water, dirt, etc and can contain extra food, extra ammunition, or maybe even a rifle.

*BUGGING IN*

Bugging in can be as simple as making sure you home is supplied with long term food storage, medical, and emergency supplies, or as complicated as setting up bunkers, fields of fire, approach funnels with concertina wire, and escape tunnels and underground shelters.

If you are preparing for a conventional emergency, such as a hurricane, tornado, earthquake; then 3 months food supply should be more than adequate.  If you are preparing for an all out PAW, then up to a years worth of food might not be a bad idea.  

You should know how to purify water, and keep rain buckets under your gutters.  If you can set up a distiller for water and alcohol, that would also be a good thing.  Distilled water is as pure as the driven snow (purer, actually) no mater what it's source is, and moonshine has a metric ton of medical and sanitary uses.  You can even use moonshine to clean a countertop after cutting up raw chicken on it, for instance, or disinfect wounds, or as fuel for a portable stove etc etc.  Just don't sell any of it until AFTER the PAW when it will become a community commodity and will no longer be illegal to sell.

Consider a small generator, and gas to keep it running.  When the power goes, your refrigerated and frozen food will go quickly thereafter.  A generator can help to keep your refrigerator and/or freezer running long enough to hurry up and eat up your cold storage food before dipping into your long term food stores.  You should not plan on keeping cold storage for a long period of time in the event of an extended blackout (months or longer).

If you absolutely must have the creature comfort of a cold beverage, then you will want a small electric powered ice maker so that you don't have to generate as much power as your freezer will take, and have some coolers on hand to store ice.  Also, a large horizontal deep freezer can be filled with ice from the ice maker and made to store larger game like deer once it is cleaned and butchered.

If you are thinking about having the ability to bug in and fight off the zombie hoards, then it is possible (but quite expensive) to armor the walls of your home.  A better solution is found in sandbags.  Empty canvass sandbags are cheap, and you can buy them in lots of hundreds or thousands.  they do not need to be kept filled in storage, and in the event of the SHTF, you can fill them with a shovel and dirt from your back yard.  Sandbags can then be stacked against the walls 2 layers deep beneath your windows in order to set up fields of fire and yet remain behind cover.

Consider at least one armored 'safe room' for your family to hide in case you have to fight off the zombie hoard.  A small interior closet lined with 1/2 inch armor plates would do just fine.  If you have real money, make that 1 inch armor, or ceramic plates, and also set up a faraday cage closet to keep any electronics you want to preserve from an EMP.

Also consider making a hidden trap door from your 'safe closet' to the crawl space underneath your house in case you or your family have to get out of the house secretly.

Outside the house, identify your avenues of approach early, before the SHTF, and set up cover in strategic points.  Do not use concrete blocks to set up cover, as concrete is quickly degraded by high power rifles.  Stone, solid cement, or solid clay brick works adequately.  make sure your cover works in only one direction -- outwards -- you do not want zombies using YOUR cover points to attack your house.  Identify and remove any natural cover that may be used to approach your house.

Consider fencing immediately surrounding your house, and out to the property line.  A chain link fence and a dog can be a very effective early warning system.

If you live in a rural area and will be bugging in when the SHTF, it may be a good idea to set up a feed trough in the woods right now, and keep it stocked with feed corn to attract deer and other medium to large game, so tat when the time comes, you have a ready source of game on hand, and do not have to go out looking for it.

Water supplies may be hairy when bugging in.  Municipal water may not be available, and if it is, may not be safe.  Along with collecting rainwater and gutter water, and having the ability to purify or distill it; you may want to identify nearby streams or other sources of water.  If you are allowed to dig a well that can be hand pumped, this is the optimal solution.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Water purification is very important.  Once the utilities go out, water will be in dire shortage.  Go to your local outdoors or camping gear store and pick up a water filter and some water purification tablets.  Water is more important than food.  Also buy quite a few of those giant poland spring water dispensers.


Agreed.  the best long-term solution is a deep well with a hand pump, and a fire powered distiller.  Keeping a few 50 gallon drums of water in storage is not a bad idea either.  Also, what Joseph said.

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## rancher89

> Agreed.  the best long-term solution is a deep well with a hand pump, and a fire powered distiller.  Keeping a few 50 gallon drums of water in storage is not a bad idea either.  Also, what Joseph said.


Berkey water filter

http://www.berkeyfilters.com/

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## rancher89

great links

http://www.thepowerhour.com/news/ite...ppearfirst.htm

http://www.aircav.com/survival/appb/asappbtoc.html

http://www.greatdreams.com/survival.htm

http://www.greatdreams.com/basic.htm

http://www.motherearthnews.com/

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## seapilot

This thread is cool. Reminds me of the Gummers from the 1990 movie Tremors.

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## GunnyFreedom

> *Medical*
> 
> Medical preparedness is important.  You will probably not have access to the hospital in the PAW, so a good first aid kit is imperative.  Even better, a fully stocked combat corpman's kit along with some paramedic training is a very good idea.


While it's true that many things will change following some kind of major cataclysm, some things will not.  Women will continue to give birth, and people will continue to get sick and injured.  In fact, some of the injuries may be more trauma related and less 'skin-your-knee-at-the-playground' related.  

Another thing that will change, is our access to commercial medicine.  The local emergency room *may* continue operations in one form or another, but the likelihood is that for most medical problems that we are currently unaccustomed to dealing with, we will be on our own.

If your child were to fall into a culvert and sustain a 2 inch laceration and a broken arm, would you know how to stitch up the wound and set the broken bone?  Even if you knew how, do you have the supplies to do so?

If there were absolutely no other choice, would you be able to remove a bullet, or an appendix?  Even knowing that if you don't try they will die for certain?

*Medical Supplies*

Medical supplies, and medical training will become extremely valuable in the PAW.  A very well stocked field corpsman kit can be found here:

http://servicesrcsub1.timberlakepubl...er%2010-07.pdf

(Warning - link is an Adobe Acrobat (PDF) file)

The above PDF file is a source for ordering the kit (I honestly do not know if they will sell to civilians or not) but it does not mention a price.  What it DOES do, is list the packs contents, which, if nothing else can suffice as a checklist for assembling your own field medical kit:

NOMENCLATURE --- Quantity per Pack
Airway, Nasopharengeal, sz 5.5 mm, 22 Fr Sterile Disp --- 1
Airway, Nasopharengeal, sz 5.5 mm, 26 Fr Sterile Disp --- 1
Crycrothrotomy set --- 1
Intraoseous Infussion System (F.A.S.T 1) --- 1
IV Injection Set, Macrodrip 10 drops/ml, 12's --- 5
Marker, Tube Type Felt, Fine Tip, Black, Permanent, Sharpie --- 1
Bandage, Elastic, 16 x 12 Abdominal wound pad, Sterile (Big Cinch) --- 2
Bandage, Gauze Fluff 4.5 inch x 4 yrds --- 6
Bandage, Muslin Camouflage 37 x 37 x 52 inch --- 6
Self-Grip, 6" x 4 yrds, Beige --- 4
Dressing, Compression, 6" x 3" x 1.5", H Bandage --- 12
Sodium Chloride, Injection, USP, 500ml, 24's --- 4
Splint, Universal, Aluminum, 4" x 36", SAMS --- 2
Scissors, Bandage, 7.25 inch, angled handle --- 2
Tape Adhesive, Surgical, Woven, 3" x 1- yrds --- 2
Combat Medic Reinforcement Tape, Mini Roll Kit --- 2
Tourniquet, Combat Application, One Handed (CAT) --- 4
Wound Pack, Hemostatic Agent, 5 x 7 " (Quick Clot) --- 4
Syringe, Toomey, 70 cc Sterile --- 1
Dressing , Burn, Water Gel, 4" x 16 " --- 2
Surgical Instrument Set, Minor Surgery --- 1
Lantern, Electric, Head Mount Halogen/Krypton --- 1
Otoscope & Opthalmoscope Set, Basic, Soft --- 1
Thermometer Kit, Clinical Human Electric, w/Probe Covers --- 1
Cannula, Needleless Access System IV w/Leur-lock inj site plastic --- 5
Connector, Saline Lock --- 5
Dressing Chest Wound Seal, Bolin, 10s --- 4
Catheter & Needle Unit, IV 14 ga x 3 1/4 inch catheter --- 2
Catheter & Needle Unit IV 18 ga x 1 1/4 cath --- 6
Gloves, Patient Exam Olive Drab, Sz Lrg, 50's --- 2
King-LT, Large, Size 5 --- 1
King-LT, Medium, Size 4 --- 1
Needle, Hypodermic, 18 Ga, 1.5 inches, 100's --- 2
Pad Pre, Isopropyl Alcohol Impregnated, 1 x 2.5 inch --- 14
Sponge, Surgical, 12-ply Gauze, 8" x 4", non-sterile --- 10
Syringe, Hypodermic, Gen Purpose, 10 ml, Leur tip --- 2
Pack, Thigh Rig for Day Use --- 1
Combat Trauma Bag, V-2 --- 1
Stethoscope, Littman Classis II 28 inches long --- 1
Pack, Corpsman Assault --- 1

The above supplies should cover nearly anything you are likely to encounter.  The only thing the kit above does not include which you may need are disinfectants, anesthetics, and pain medications.  180 proof grain alcohol (moonshine) can fill at least some of that role.  If you are able to legally acquire a stock of codeine tablets and morphine ampules that would be a good thing to include, but do not use them without a knowledge of dosing and possible reactions.

Also, include a bottle of iodine.  In the event of a nuclear detonation, immediately dose everyone in your party with about 2 teaspoons of iodine to protect the thyroid.

Other, more conventional medical kits cam be had here:
http://www.first-aid-industrial.com/index.php?cPath=81
http://www.firstaid-supply.com/Indus...l?wcw=overture



*Medical Training*

Organizations like the University of Phoenix offer EMT training where you can pick and choose your classes.  because you will not be going for certification, but just for knowledge, you will have a lot more freedom:

http://www.careerexplorer.net/jobcho...acctid=&ovkey=

Here is a decent overview of EMT and Paramedic training:

http://firstaid.about.com/od/emergen...oparamedic.htm

And some reference material;

http://www.overstock.com/Books-Movie...422886-000-000

http://bergware.net/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/bookshelf?/Z101321

Note that if you are building a medical library, there is no one book, but an entire LIBRARY of works covering the science and the art of medicine.  Your best first reference will be a textbook when taking an EMT and Paramedic classes.

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## Kalifornia

> While it's true that many things will change following some kind of major cataclysm, some things will not.  Women will continue to give birth, and people will continue to get sick and injured.  In fact, some of the injuries may be more trauma related and less 'skin-your-knee-at-the-playground' related.  
> 
> lots of stuff...
> 
> Note that if you are building a medical library, there is no one book, but an entire LIBRARY of works covering the science and the art of medicine.  Your best first reference will be a textbook when taking an EMT and Paramedic classes.


Despite having a professional doctorate, I feel like my education is wholly inadequate in this regard.  I know nothing about how things, except for data and legal systems, work.  I have considered doing ongoing classes at the local CC to fix this weakness, and emergency medicine is a good place to start.

How relevant is a local EMT or paramedic progam to perhaps facing the potential of life threatening illness and injury, where little to no modern medical equipment is immediately available?

This question is for anyone who has enough knowledge on the subject to speak to it intelligently.

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## seapilot

> Despite having a professional doctorate, I feel like my education is wholly inadequate in this regard.  I know nothing about how things, except for data and legal systems, work.  I have considered doing ongoing classes at the local CC to fix this weakness, and emergency medicine is a good place to start.
> 
> How relevant is a local EMT or paramedic progam to perhaps facing the potential of life threatening illness and injury, where little to no modern medical equipment is immediately available?
> 
> This question is for anyone who has enough knowledge on the subject to speak to it intelligently.


Thats a hard call. Most EMTs use modern equipment like defibrilators, oxygen, nitroglycerin, neck braces, IV lines, etc. They are there to stabilize a person and get them to an emergency room for surgery or more advanced analysis. Basic First Aid, CPR is for until the EMTs arrive.

 It definitly would help to take such a course, as well as read about home remedies. Good to know basics for the start, simple little things like giving someone an asprin during a heart attack could save thier life. Id recommend taking a day CPR/First Aid class to give you an idea before taking an EMT program.

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## Hawk45

Every survivalist group I have seen during the last 30 years are ALL looking for trained medical folks.  I know of one group that paid a young ladies entire way thru medical school just to make sure they had a Doctor.  That maybe the one profession that will get you in just about survival camp if you have to bug out from your home and become a refugee.  Yes I said refugee as that is really what folks are that have to bug out.

You may want to start getting together with like minded folks now and find out if you will get along NOW while it is peaceful.  Also work out now what your 'group' is going to do about other refugees.  Are you gonna interview them in hopes you find some skill your group is lacking or what you will do with any survivors that attack your little piece of heaven on earth.

NOW is the time to find out if you are going to hang them or encourage them to just move along to bother some other group.

Sometime survivalism is NOT pretty, but it is reality.

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## tekrunner

Hey gunny,
You got a link for those sandbags?
Not only would they make for great defense, they'd make a wonderful home for Tom, Dick and Harry should you get cornered in your Urban bug in spot.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Hey gunny,
> You got a link for those sandbags?
> Not only would they make for great defense, they'd make a wonderful home for Tom, Dick and Harry should you get cornered in your Urban bug in spot.


You can always try these guys:

http://www.nyp-corp.com/sandbags.htm...FQIbgQodihhexw

or here is even better:

http://www.safetycentral.com/floodprotsan.html


But the BEST source, seriously, is right here:

http://www.unitedbags.com/pc-160-6-p...-1000bale.aspx

Those are the same bags purchased under DOD contract.  Only problem is, of course, from United Bags you have to buy in lots of 1000.  1000 DOD spec bags from united bags will run $380.  Yes, $380 is a lot to pay for sandbags, but it's a lot less than the $1.10 per bag price you get for lots of 100.

If you want to get just stupid about the quantities  these guys will get you an even better price per bag in lots of 2400 (but you have to specifically request a quote):

http://daybag.com/industrial/military.html

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## Dequeant

Well i've been stocking up for a while now, and my priorities are based on needs:

Generally speaking......
You can live 2 weeks without food
You can live 3 days without water
You can live a few hours without weapons

Priority # 1 is weapons/ammo.  If you don't have these, anything you do have can be easily taken by someone who does have weapons and ammo.

Priority # 2 is water.  The majority of time in an post apocalyptic scenario will be used in search of clean drinking water.  Bringing a couple months supply of water and water purification system (with additional filters) is vital.

Priority # 3 is food.  Since you CAN live quite a while without food, a large kill or two per week could hold you over.  However, planning ahead by having an on-hand supply of a couple months is a good decision.  Canned or freeze dried food are good/cheap ideas.  Rice is also good.  Not to be overlooked is Ramen Noodles.......which is the cheapest option ( 10 cents for a day, not bad).  As we are seeing, the first thing to be "rationed" is rice.

Not in my little list up top, but worth mentioning to say the least, is shelter.  Depending on your environment, this COULD be the most important or the least important.  However, only establish a shelter where you have reliable access to the 3 priorities.......in the woods along a river or something to that effect.

Once you have a spot chosen for your shelter, you can fortify it depending on its perminance.  If you're going to be staying there for a long time you can make it from wood or something durable, with thick walls (mine will be thick enough to stop bullets).  The surrounding area should be alarmed........something as simple as fishing line and tins cans......or snares and bear traps if you REALLY don't want company.

As far as specific items, i won't tell you what caliber guns to get etc etc (though to be honest, Gunny hit the nail on the head with 22LR) but i do advise a good supply of rope.  You can get 1000ft of parachute cord for about 30 bucks, which is what i have.  Second to your firearm, rope is the most useful, since with it you can build shelter, set up defences/alarms, bring in food, and about 1000 other uses you won't know about until you need it.

Some other suggestions......

Flint lighter (6 bucks at cabellas).  Lights wet, muddy, and doesn't need "fuel".  Good for thousands of fires, unlike conventional lighters and matches.

9v "Pak light".  One 9v battery and this little light can provide constant light for months without recharging.

Anarchists cookbook.  Seriously, there are plenty of things you can learn from this that will help you in survival situations.  A bonus is if you want to actually engage in some resistance/fighting.  You don't need chemicals, you can literally make explosives out of anything from chicken$#@! and diesel to straining fertile soil for ammonium nitrate.

Large rechargeable batteries (car batteries will work).  If you are going to make your own electricity to recharge batteries/provide light/power communications you will need something to hold it.

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## Athan

MY GOD. This is the greatest thread in internet existence!!!

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## Meatwasp

A lot of you may think I am nuts but I have saved my eye from an infection , a bad earache.
Poison oak that got infected  with a darling little green can called Bag Balm. I would never be without it.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Preparing for the PAW (Post Apocalyptic World)
> 
> *Food*
> 
> Food storage is also important.  When the world goes to hell in a handbasket, you aren't likely to find goodies at your local Wal Mart.  Food stores tend to fall into 3 categories -- MRE's, Canned and/or freeze dried long term food stores, and bulk commodity foodstuffs.  MRE's can be had military surplus, and will store longer than 10 years if kept under 60 degrees.  MRE's can be had less expensively as knock-offs and are nearly as good, but MRE's are damn expensive.  One year's supply for one person can run into the $5000 range.  Canned long term food stores can be had with shelf lifes from 5 years to 100 years, and tend to be less expensive, one year for one person running around $1000 to $2000.  Commodity foodstuffs include rice, wheat flour, dried beans etc, and are the cheapest of the lot, one year for one person coming in at $200 to $500.  Your best bet is a combination of the three.  Some MRE's for the BOB/BOV and anytime you may be out of the house for an extended period of weeks or months; some canned meats and vegetables, and some commodities.


The vast majority of Americans have barely enough food on hand to last only a couple days past their next paycheck.  Many of those are, in fact, much worse off -- buying their meals a day at a time and having almost nothing on hand in case of emergencies.

In case of the complete collapse of civilization, the people who have only one day or two weeks of food on hand, will probably not be able to go to the corner store and buy more.  If they eat at all, it will be out of garbage cans, from the black market, or begging rations from FEMA, other agencies of the Federal Government, the Red Cross, or the UN.

Food is survival.  As someone else mentioned in this thread, there is a quick and ready list of how long you can survive without certain supplies or materials.  The way I have heard it before goes like this:

A human being can survive --

Three minutes without air
Three hours without shelter
Three days without water
Three weeks without food

*Three Minutes Without Air*

This sets up your priorities in a hurry.  While it's true that we are not on a space station in outer space, nevertheless the three minutes without air is important to remember.  If there is a fire spewing noxious gasses, your home fills with tear gas, or anything whatever happens to choke off your oxygen supply, you should always be able to grab your gas mask within 60 seconds.  As a former Marine, we had the requirement to be able to get, don, and clear our masks in 7 seconds.

There is really no excuse to not have a gas mask anymore.  Gas masks are NOT terribly expensive.  Just scan over gunbroker.com or ebay, go to your local military surplus store, or hit up a gun show.  You can get a top of the line military spec gas mask for under $20.  Learn how to don and clear, and never have it out of reach within 60 seconds.  If you wear glasses, make sure you get a gas mask that can take optical inserts so that you can still see when you are wearing it.

*Three Hours Without Shelter*

It may be that you live in Hawaii, and shelter is not as pressing as if you lived in Maine.  Nevertheless, if you have ever watched "Survivorman" or "Man vs Wild" you will note that regardless of the climate the one thing Les or Bear prioritizes in every show is shelter.

Focus on the areas you may be in, and regularly spin scenarios in your mind about how you will acquire shelter.  If you followed the advice above and kept a well stocked Bug Out Bag, then shelter will be readily available.  A fallen tree, propped on a branch, cut the limbs, throw the space blanket or poncho over the top and get in a sleeping bag inside.

If you have minimal supplies, then learn the area where you are, where you might find caves, how to assemble shelter from the local flora.  Do you live in the far north?  Learn how to build snow caves.

Watching the two shows mentioned above is in fact a good way to learn the basics of sheltering.  But if you never practice it, it will be a lot more difficult to accomplish when you need to.  Get a survival manual, watch the shows, gain ideas, and go into your expected bug out areas and practice practice practice.

*Three Days Without Water*

Once you know you can breathe, and you have set up shelter, your next priority is water.  In your Bug Out Bag you should have an entrenching tool (shovel) and plastic trash bags.  I recommend BLACK plastic trash bags in particular, because they capture solar energy that can be used to make a solar still.  With a solar still, you can purify any water source at all.  you dig a hole and place a cup in the middle of the hole.  Cover the hole with the plastic, pile dirt around the circumference, and place a small stone directly over the cup.  Now pour any liquid source you want into the hole under the plastic bag, or even (gasp!) urinate on the dirt surrounding the hole (outside of he plastic).  The sin't energy will evaporate the water which will collect on the bag, the droplets will trickle "downhill" to where the stone rests, and then drip off into the cup.  Voila!  pure water.

If you have stream water, you can boil the water for 3 minutes to kill any parasites.  Be careful, however, and check upstream for animal corpses or industrial pollution before taking the water and boiling it.

If you are bugging in and have a well, make sure that you have the capability of hand pumping your well in case the power goes out.

Have a 55 gallon drum to collect rainwater in the open, and under your houses gutters to collect more.  Understand, however, that gutter water will require more filtering/purification than rainwater collected in the open.  ALL sources of PAW water (with the possible exception of hand-pumped well water) will require filtering and purification.  

The kind folks helping to contribute to this thread (thank you so much!  seriously!) have offered great ideas for water filtration.  A Berkey water filter, I have heard, is one of the best.  Filters, of course, eventually lose effectiveness or become clogged.  You can potentially backwash filters at the end of their life to eek out a few more gallons, but for high end filtration you will either need a lot of filters on hand, or come up with a more permanent solution. 

I heartily recommend the filtration solutions mentioned above, as well as the iodine tablets and so on.  However, if you are looking at long long term PAW survival, nothing can beat a fire powered water distiller.  You can clean it out, and re-use it until the metal rots away.  A decent water distiller (homemade, mind you) can last for 100 years if kept maintained.

A good stop-gap solution to take you from the apocalyptic event until you are able to retrieve water from your water sources may be found in keeping 2 or 3 55 gallon drums full of potable water in storage.  Or, you can store several cases of gallon water jugs, or 5 gallon water bottles.

*Three Weeks Without Food*

I will go ahead and post this so far, and give 'food' a post of its own next, as foodstuffs, food storage, hunting and so on will certainly be a very detailed and very very long post -- it deserves a post of it's own.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> A lot of you may think I am nuts but I have saved my eye from an infection , a bad earache.
> Poison oak that got infected  with a darling little green can called Bag Balm. I would never be without it.


That is probably the one 'deep country down home remedy' with the most verifiable anecdotal evidence supporting it that I have ever encountered, actually.  Some folks in the rural south will use bag balm for EVERY-THING you can imagine, and swear by it.  Most of the anecdotal evidence I have seen backs up their faith in the stuff.  Considering what it IS, I think the _name_ is a little oo-key, but that won't stop me from using good stuff.  Good call.

----------


## Meatwasp

Another niffty trick for poison oak. When the first sign and I do I mean the first sign of it take two teaspoons of cream of tarter in a glass of water. An old miner told me that and it worked like a charm.

----------


## Kalifornia

> You can always try these guys:
> 
> http://www.nyp-corp.com/sandbags.htm...FQIbgQodihhexw
> 
> or here is even better:
> 
> http://www.safetycentral.com/floodprotsan.html
> 
> 
> ...


Having fought off midwest floods, I can tell you that a thousand sandbags isnt all that much.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Having fought off midwest floods, I can tell you that a thousand sandbags isnt all that much.


That's true, and honestly I would probably want about 2500 on hand for fortifying a home.  However, remember that fortifying a bug in location with cover takes a lot fewer sandbags than holding off a flood.

----------


## Dr.3D

This stuff I really nice to have when you need something that will kill microbes.
I've been using this stuff for around 10 years and find it very good at what it does.
This stuff could save your life.  I currently keep at least one 4oz. bottle in my BOB.



Water Treatment ChartAmount of Water 	Filtered Water 	Water with Ice 	Tap Water 	Untreated Water
One glass* 	1-3 drops 	     2-4 drops 	   3-5 drops 	     5-10 drops
One pint* 	  2-5 drops 	      4-8 drops      5-10 drops       10-15 drops
One quart 	5-10 drops 	 10-15 drops 	10-20 drops 	 15-25 drops
One gallon 	10-20 drops 	15-30 drops 	20-40 drops 	25-50 drops
*Allow treated water to stand for at least 10 minutes.
Let stand for a minimum of 30 minutes.

Other Uses

More Uses

Still More Uses

Information about GSE

----------


## Kalifornia

> That's true, and honestly I would probably want about 2500 on hand for fortifying a home.  However, remember that fortifying a bug in location with cover takes a lot fewer sandbags than holding off a flood.


Im actually amazed at how little sand will stop a high velocity projectile.   Handgun rounds actually penetrate better than any rifle round tested.  (although Im sure .50 bmg would be a different story).

http://http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot7.htm

----------


## Doktor_Jeep

Glad to see a survival thread in place.

It does have something to do with bearing arms. Preparedness and self-reliance is a part of resistance to tyranny. Food and money are weapons and far worse than bombs or guns. 

They can try to shoot us all or use guns to make us submit, but hunger is so much easier for the enemy.


But...

Do not confuse survivalism with resistance. Survivalists only stay in place long enough for whatever monster in the PAW (like a new Hitler or Stalin) to make a project of.  Real results come from the militia that does not intend to run off and hide until some "tactical team" finds them and teaches a short lesson in how any position becomes indefensable over time. 

Stay alive, but don't stay out. Liberty needs able men who will fight for it.

----------


## Kludge

Don't forget your iPod and solar charger. God forbid you go a night without watching "Lazy Scranton".

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Glad to see a survival thread in place.
> 
> It does have something to do with bearing arms. Preparedness and self-reliance is a part of resistance to tyranny. Food and money are weapons and far worse than bombs or guns. 
> 
> They can try to shoot us all or use guns to make us submit, but hunger is so much easier for the enemy.
> 
> 
> But...
> 
> ...


http://ncmilitia.org/
http://www.ncmilitia.org/phpBB2/index.php
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=131135

I'll be at Dixie Gun and Knife on Saturday May 3rd wearing a MARPAT boonie and URBAN MARPAT utilities until 1300 when I will be relocating to Cup a Joes on Hillsborough St.

----------


## SL89

Another good thread Gunny. See ya later on Zombie.

----------


## tekrunner

Gunny,
There's a rumor that there may be some problems in the Pacific NW the first week of May. In an emergency I've got preps but am worried about very intelligent and well trained people storming my house for food and such...
If you could point me to one good tactical resource on defending a house what would it be? BTW, thanks for the advice thus far.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Gunny,
> There's a rumor that there may be some problems in the Pacific NW the first week of May. In an emergency I've got preps but am worried about very intelligent and well trained people storming my house for food and such...
> If you could point me to one good tactical resource on defending a house what would it be? BTW, thanks for the advice thus far.


Well, first and foremost, who all knows you have food?  If nobody knows you have food, then you are in a lot less danger than if everybody knows you have food.

Secondly, if people are coming to get supplies, then they are a lot less likely to storm your house if it's perceived as a hard target.  Simple things, like exterior lights that point out without illuminating the house itself will help to create that impression.  Also, some kind of early warning system helps to create an impression of a hard target.  

My early warning system is a chain link fence that completely surrounds the house and contains a dog.

However, you can also (if you have gobs of money) come up with solar powered break-beam lasers to detect movement -- just be prepared for a lot of false alarms being outdoors.  If you have the money to do this, then you can also set up an automation trigger for lighting.  Trip the beam and the outdoor lights come on, followed by a couple interior lights in strategic locations.  Even if you never wake up, an attacker will probably look for easier pickings at that point.

One thing I used to do as a kid a lot was to take a bag of M-80's, a bunch of model rocket igniters, a bunch of 9v batteries, clothespins, some aluminum foil, some wire, some cardboard, fishing line, and 90mph tape and make trip wires.  Nothing that would harm anybody, but something that would simply set off an M-80 whenever the tripwire was pulled out of the clothespin.

An easier solution is to take all your leftover cans from canned foods, wash them out, paint them to match your surroundings, and hang them from trees on line (or on fences) so that they make a racket whenever a line is stepped on or kicked, or a fence is being climbed.

If your early warning system goes off and you look outside to see 2-3 shadowy figures on approach, a simple warning shot will almost certainly send them looking for easier pickings.  If they continue coming after that, then they are specifically targeting YOU and they probably want something a little more involved than food stores.

You have to put yourself in their shoes.  If you think a random house may have food, and you are wiling to break in and take it, then you will be looking for "the lowest hanging fruit" instead of the one that's neigh on impossible to get.  And then, by the time YOU become the 'lowest hanging fruit,' hopefully you will have gotten plenty of warning from your neighbors that the bad guys are in the area.  

At that point, then, you can start horse-trading.  ESPECIALLY if you have enough food stored up.  Go up to a fairly competent (but hungry) neighbor and say, "I'll give you a pound of rice a week and a can of meat a month if you help me keep watch." (but only if you can trust him enough to not gather 15 people and storm your house himself!)

Honestly, I could go on for days here.  But back to the original question -- where to get tactical training.  That's actually a tough one.  Your best bet will be to network with others of a like mind and just 'come up together' with training.  Go to a gun show, the flea market, and army surplus stores and get Army and Marine Corps field manuals, and learn as much book knowledge as you can absorb, and then get with fellow survivalists and practice.  Join an airsoft league (preferably) or if not a paintball league.  Airsoft tends to be more 'tactical' and paintball tends to be more 'sport.'

You can hook up with like-minded folk at:

http://www.shtfmilitia.com/index.php
and
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/index.php

to start with.

I'll get more into weapons training in the "weapons" installment of this thread, following the food storage post that I'll be posting in the next 24 hours.

----------


## Kludge

> One thing I used to do as a kid a lot was to take a bag of M-80's, a bunch of model rocket igniters, a bunch of 9v batteries, clothespins, some aluminum foil, some wire, some cardboard, fishing line, and 90mph tape and make trip wires.  Nothing that would harm anybody, but something that would simply set off an M-80 whenever the tripwire was pulled out of the clothespin.


Ahhh.... You're one-of-a-kind Gunny. Thanks for the post, it's always good to know how to be best prepared (and be prepared...).

----------


## amy31416

> One thing I used to do as a kid a lot was to take a bag of M-80's, a bunch of model rocket igniters, a bunch of 9v batteries, clothespins, some aluminum foil, some wire, some cardboard, fishing line, and 90mph tape and make trip wires.  Nothing that would harm anybody, but something that would simply set off an M-80 whenever the tripwire was pulled out of the clothespin.


You, sir, are the MacGyver of RPF. *bows down*

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> You, sir, are the MacGyver of RPF. *bows down*


ROFL - not quite!  Those are actually amazingly simple to make.  I didn't have any sort of plan, I made the design up myself, but that's more of a testament to how ridiculously simple they are to make than any sort of design prowess on my part.

If you have ever seen an M-80, it's a cylinder shaped fire cracker with a loose fuze sticking out of the side.  A model rocket igniter, is little more than a match head with 2 wires sticking out of it.  Pull the fuze, insert the igniter, tape down, and any 9v DC current will result in an instantaneous M-80 BANG!



A note if you plan on actually DOING this -- do not connect the battery until everything is in place -- AFTER the whole thing is taped up, AFTER the fishing line is attached, AFTER both ends are secured to trees, and AFTER the piece of cardboard is firmly breaking the circuit.

It helps to actually use a 9 volt battery snap on connector which you can get real cheap and re-use.  You do NOT want the M-80 going off while building this thing, and CERTAINLY not while you are holding it.  M-80's are a bit powerful, and can damage your hand!

So build the whole thing attaching the wires to the 9 volt battery snap on connecter, put everything including trip wire in place, and the last thing you do before leaving it is to snap the connector onto the battery.

----------


## Athan

> Honestly, I could go on for days here.


Well if your offering! We aren't going anywhere.

----------


## amy31416

Thanks for the diagram--looks like it'd be fun to put together (or earn you an honorary Darwin's Award  )

----------


## Dr.3D

It is sad how in some states, they won't let people have M80 fireworks... for that matter anything that goes bang or flies through the air is outlawed.  

In those states, it is easier to use a popper round (blank) for a 12 gauge shot gun and a spring trigger to snap the cap.  The entire device can be made out of a small piece of 3/4 inch steel pipe and some reducing couplings.   Along with those, you would need a bolt and some nuts and a spring.   Not all that hard to build... but then that raises the question of whether they would call that a bomb and arrest you for having the harmless noise making device.

----------


## Kade

> Preparing for the PAW (Post Apocalyptic World)
> 
> Preparing for the PAW is neither cheap nor easy.  As in all things, you can be frugal or you can be lavish.  There is no one set of equipment and foodstuffs, but rather a set of basic principles to abide by in the preparation which can be addressed frugally or expensively.  These principles can be laid out in segments as follows:
> 
> Bugging In/Bugging Out
> Medical
> Food
> Weapons
> Ammunition
> ...


My plan:

Start a business that sells survival gear to whackjobs who believe in the end of the world, including a card company that promises to deliver your cards to other non-believers post rapture. 

Buy land and other businesses.

Take all the money I make off my new company and invest in other companies that are equally abusing the market. 

Buy more property, physical and intellectual.

Use my charm, sex appeal and money to have secret affairs with married women and single women.

Buy myself a presidency or senatorial seat (after a public conversion to Protestantism)

Use my charm, sex appeal, money, and power to have open affairs with other married women and single young women.

Con the American public into funding my ridiculous lifestyle and property owning.  


Renounce my religion near my deathbed, saying that I only lied about it to get elected. Self publish my memoirs, donating massive amounts of fortune to global projects, networks, and Universities. Create several trusts to promote certain ideals. Self publish my novels and notes. Freeze my sperm in holding banks across the planet, allowing access to qualified participants.

Die and leave my wealth to my numerous children, legitimate and the earlier illegitimate who come forward. 

Free Market baby, love and live, and learn how to abuse it.

Be an evolutionary success.

----------


## JTM

there are two types of water purification to be had that can be useful and very easy to set up.

Ground Filtration.  

At a river this is easiest... about 6 inches from the bank, dig a small trench.  Watch the trench fill up with water that's coming through the dirt.  Collect the water.

H2O2 purification.

Then take it home and add H2O2 to it (1000 ppm is fine) and shine a UV light (UVC works best, but is more dangerous.  Using UVA is fine as well) on it.  H2O2 doesn't last forever though.  but it's dirt cheap.

Your water will be clean enough to drink.  The second step is really overkill.  Technically you only need to filter it through the ground to get the bacteria out.

----------


## Dr.3D

> there are two types of water purification to be had that can be useful and very easy to set up.
> 
> Ground Filtration.  
> 
> At a river this is easiest... about 6 inches from the bank, dig a small trench.  Watch the trench fill up with water that's coming through the dirt.  Collect the water.
> 
> H2O2 purification.
> 
> Then take it home and add H2O2 to it (1000 ppm is fine) and shine a UV light (UVC works best, but is more dangerous.  Using UVA is fine as well) on it.  H2O2 doesn't last forever though.  but it's dirt cheap.
> ...


Or just use GSE as I described in my previous post.

----------


## JTM

meh... i like the ground filtration.  works very well.  plus i don't have to carry *Anything* around to do it.  and will work well after you've run out of GSE.

----------


## DirtMcGirt

Not sure if this was posted but its PDF of US Army Survival Manual FM 21-76
http://www.equipped.com/fm21-76.htm

----------


## the_british_are_coming

i pray for the sake of everyone who reads this thread that i am not the only one who has a problem with this statement:

"Weapons will be very important. Do not underestimate the utility of the .22 rifle! you can get 1000 rounds of .22 LR for $20 and they don't make a whole lot of noise (which draws a lot of attention!)"


A .22 rifle doesn't make enough noise to get noticed, but a 9mm pistol will bring down the evil hordes??????????


have you ever fired a gun that wasn't attached to a nintendo????


i'm sorry, but wow... seriously?  i fully agree with the utility of a .22, but to say that it doesn't make a whole lot of noise just devastates your credibility... 

they make more than enough noise to "draw attention..."

unless you grew up watching movies where people hunted all day with .22's, but stepping on a TWIG alerted the evil monster to where the good guys were...

----------


## Kalifornia

> i pray for the sake of everyone who reads this thread that i am not the only one who has a problem with this statement:
> 
> "Weapons will be very important. Do not underestimate the utility of the .22 rifle! you can get 1000 rounds of .22 LR for $20 and they don't make a whole lot of noise (which draws a lot of attention!)"
> 
> 
> A .22 rifle doesn't make enough noise to get noticed, but a 9mm pistol will bring down the evil hordes??????????
> 
> 
> have you ever fired a gun that wasn't attached to a nintendo????
> ...


Your posts today are pretty abrasive.

The OP shoots .556 and .308.  Relative to those chamberings, a .22 is a whisper.   Hell, relative to my .45, a .22 is a whisper. 

Outdoor shooting a .22... crack crack

Outdoor shooting a .308 BOOM BOON

big difference.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> i pray for the sake of everyone who reads this thread that i am not the only one who has a problem with this statement:
> 
> "Weapons will be very important. Do not underestimate the utility of the .22 rifle! you can get 1000 rounds of .22 LR for $20 and they don't make a whole lot of noise (which draws a lot of attention!)"
> 
> 
> A .22 rifle doesn't make enough noise to get noticed, but a 9mm pistol will bring down the evil hordes??????????
> 
> 
> have you ever fired a gun that wasn't attached to a nintendo????
> ...


When you are in the PAW hunting rabbit for survival, you aren't exactly evading NVA in the bush.  

Depending on the model .22 you are shooting (a Ruger 10/22 is a lot louder than a Marlin .22, for instance) the sound of a .22 can get utterly lost in "woods noises" at around 150 to 200 yards in dense forest.

And as to choosing a .22 over a 9mm, if you shoot a rabbit with a 9mm there won't be that much of it left to eat, whereas with a .22 there won't really be a lot of damage at all.  Not to mention, a .22 with a scope can hit a rabbit in the head at 75 yards with no problem, but a 9mm pistol will have to be within 25 yards or less to guarantee a body hit.

And yes, a 9mm is a LOT louder than a .22 LR -- especially a Marlin .22

----------


## rancher89

I'd choose a 22 for hunting small game anyday, numerous reasons, mostly stated already, but it will be lighter for cross country scrambling.....

----------


## SeanEdwards

What this thread needs is useful information about subsistence farming, or links to good sites.

----------


## Dr.3D

> When you are in the PAW hunting rabbit for survival, you aren't exactly evading NVA in the bush.  
> 
> Depending on the model .22 you are shooting (a Ruger 10/22 is a lot louder than a Marlin .22, for instance) the sound of a .22 can get utterly lost in "woods noises" at around 150 to 200 yards in dense forest.
> 
> And as to choosing a .22 over a 9mm, if you shoot a rabbit with a 9mm there won't be that much of it left to eat, whereas with a .22 there won't really be a lot of damage at all.  Not to mention, a .22 with a scope can hit a rabbit in the head at 75 yards with no problem, but a 9mm pistol will have to be within 25 yards or less to guarantee a body hit.
> 
> And yes, a 9mm is a LOT louder than a .22 LR -- especially a Marlin .22


So true, my .22lr pistol is a heck of a lot louder than my Marlin Model 60 .22lr.

I don't like to shoot the pistol without hearing protection whereas my Marlin Rifle is hardly a pop when fired.  In the PAW, one could easily bring down large game with a .22lr if they were shining with a Maglite and aiming for the two bright spots.  A head shot doesn't care if you used a .45 or a .22, the two work just as well.

I've gone out at night with a Maglite and seen those two bright spots deer make  and they are usually only 75 yards out.  I could easily aim at the two bright spots (eyes) and fire a couple of rounds.   I'm pretty sure I would bring down the deer without hardly making any noise at all.

----------


## rancher89

> What this thread needs is useful information about subsistence farming, or links to good sites.


look near the front of the thread, I posted some really helpful links

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> look near the front of the thread, I posted some really helpful links


I agree, extremely useful. I'll reiterate those links with my next installment. Very appropriate too, as the next installment is foodstuffs.

----------


## LittleLightShining

Bump

----------


## weslinder

Maybe I should post this in the Ron Paul Rifles, but this thread inspired me to actually buy the Remington Model 597 that I've looked at the past two times I was in my sporting goods store.  I'll post an actual pic later, but here's a stock pic:



$150 with a decent barrel, and I added a 30-round magazine.

----------


## SL89

Thanks Gunny! I have settled into ZH forums thanks to a previous post. Keep these coming, this forum needed some practical info.

----------


## Doktor_Jeep

This reminds me of the Frugals Squirrels days...


Old survival website that has been around for years.

http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/vb/index.php

----------


## weslinder

Here's the Remington 597 that this thread inspired:

----------


## Doktor_Jeep

Ah, great choice. Nice game getter and plinkomatic. 

Master the irons first BEFORE you go scope and start itching for a trigger job (the mods disease that infects all .22 rifle shooters)

----------


## Dr.3D

Sometimes we don't have the convenience of being able to get yeast at the store and have to find other ways to raise bread.

I found this web site with the following instructions on how to make Sourdough Starter.  I'm sure there are other web sites with more information on this subject but this is probably enough to get people informed as to how to make bread without the option of store bought bread yeast.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...?page=2&cat=22




> These directions will take you through the process of making the simplest sourdough starter. First, combine 2 tablespoons of whole wheat flour and 1.5 tablespoons of warm water in the bottom of a plastic or glass container, preferably a bowl with a wide mouth so that it will be easier to stir later. Cover your bowl loosely with plastic wrap, then let it sit at room temperature for a full twenty four hours. After the first waiting period, add another 2 TBSP flour and 1.5 TBSP water, and let your sourdough starter sit untouched for another full day. Continue to repeat the process of adding ingredients and letting them ferment overnight until youve had your sourdough starter going for a total of seven days. Congratulations! Youve just created your first full, vibrant batch of sourdough starter. Thats all there is to it. Now, you can use your starter to bake a loaf of bread, or you can grow it according to the directions below.
> Making Sourdough starter
> 
> Growing Your Starter
> 
> Because sourdough starter contains a type of yeast made up of living organisms, if you feed a starter new materials, it will reproduce and increase. To grow your starter into a bigger batch, just add more flour and water. In twenty four hours, the organisms in your sourdough starter will have thoroughly incorporated these new materials, lending them the same taste and texture as the rest of the batch. You can add as much food to your starter as you want, so long as you follow the proportion of one generous of cup of flour to a cup of water. Stir gently, but dont worry about mixing the ingredients too thoroughly; leaving a few lumps of flour is fine, as these will simply get digested by the starter.
> 
> Keeping A Starter
> 
> To preserve your sourdough starter, keep it in your refrigerator in a plastic container. Dont seal the mixture completely, as the micro-organisms in your starter need oxygen in order to survive. However, it is important to cover the mixture so that it doesnt dry out in your fridge. To best protect your sourdough starter, loosely drape a layer of plastic wrap over the top of the container. Stored this way, sourdough starter can last untouched for up to a month. Whenever you want to use some of your starter, just grow it according to the directions above, then leave some in the fridge for next time. If you grow your starter once a month, you can keep it going for decades!


It might not be a bad idea to print a copy of this information and keep it with your food stores.

----------


## Athan

Gunny, just a kind reminder. You haven't yet posted your "Food" section post.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Gunny, just a kind reminder. You haven't yet posted your "Food" section post.


I appreciate that -- I have been going nuts with the Primary and a GOP meeting yesterday, so I am now in the process of composing it as we speak.  ;-)

Thanks, and you can expect to see it here by this afternoon.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Preparing for the PAW (Post Apocalyptic World)
> 
> *Food*
> 
> Food storage is also important.  When the world goes to hell in a handbasket, you aren't likely to find goodies at your local Wal Mart.  Food stores tend to fall into 3 categories -- MRE's, Canned and/or freeze dried long term food stores, and bulk commodity foodstuffs.  MRE's can be had military surplus, and will store longer than 10 years if kept under 60 degrees.  MRE's can be had less expensively as knock-offs and are nearly as good, but MRE's are damn expensive.  One year's supply for one person can run into the $5000 range.  Canned long term food stores can be had with shelf lifes from 5 years to 100 years, and tend to be less expensive, one year for one person running around $1000 to $2000.  Commodity foodstuffs include rice, wheat flour, dried beans etc, and are the cheapest of the lot, one year for one person coming in at $200 to $500.  Your best bet is a combination of the three.  Some MRE's for the BOB/BOV and anytime you may be out of the house for an extended period of weeks or months; some canned meats and vegetables, and some commodities.


Food is very important for the PAW.  Having enough food for your party to survive the duration is very important, and having enough extra food to barter for things you may need is also a good idea.

The real concern here, is long term storage.  The nation could go to hell in a handbasket tomorrow, next year, 10 years from now, or never.  If you get food to store that goes bad in a year, but the S doesn't HTF for another 7 years, then you wind up with a large stock of foodstuffs that may be more harmful than helpful.

If you go with cans of food from the grocery store, these tend to expire in 18 months.  They are still useful, so long as you maintain proper rotation of your stock, so that at any given time you have good long term food.  Always prominently label your foodstuffs with the acquisition date, and (if known) the expiration date.  That will help a lot with rotation.  A simple practice for rotation is to put your new stuff in back, and pull from the front to eat from.  If you plan on going with grocery store canned goods, then buying the full lot up front can mean that you have to mostly eat out of your food stores *now* while replacing what you eat, in order to start the rotation going.  The better bet if you go with grocery store canned goods, is to buy 3x what you eat on a regular basis, and store up the 2/3 that you don't eat, to establish your rotation AS you grow your food stores.

As I mentioned, long term storage food stocks fall into three basic categories.  Well, 4 really, if you include the freeze dried stuff, but they really fall somewhere in-between MRE's and canned goods.

My own food plan is about 10% MRE, 40% Canned Long Term, and 50% Commodity.  

*MRE's, Meals Ready To Eat*

MRE's are the most expensive of the bunch.  I have heard a rumor that at the Fayetteville, NC flea market, a case of 12 can be had for $24.  I have not seen that, but given that a case of 12 military grade MRE's usually go for $70, I'm slightly dubious, although I can believe it, considering the environment of Fayetteville, and the mindset of members of the military.

MRE's are the perfect solution for long term food storage, and if you can actually afford tons of them, then I'd lean heavily in that direction.  Stored at 65 degrees fahrenheit, they will last for 10 years without losing flavor, and probably 18 years before actually going 'bad' and losing nutritional value.  Stored at 70 degrees, that number comes down only to 8.5 years/15.5 years, and at 80 degrees, it's 6.5 years/12.5 years.

MRE's contain a full meal, and a water activated entree heater.  The heater contains a chemical (probably sodium based) that reacts to water by producing heat.  If you open the heater bag, slip in the unopened entree, add water, and then let it sit for 3-5 minutes, your entree will be steaming hot with no fire or cooking required.

MRE's also contain side dishes, snack, and dessert, along with condiments like salt, pepper, tabasco, and my favorite in the field: instant coffee, creamer, and sugar.  As bizarre as it sounds, if I was in the field and needed a burst of energy, I'd take the coffee, creamer, and sugar, pour them in my mouth and chew on the mixture of powder for a bit, and then swig it down with a bit of my canteen water.  It really is not as bad as it sounds, and can really help when you are at the end of your rope energy-wise.

MRE's can be had from tons of places.  There are also different kinds/brands of MRE to be had.  I tend to rely on military grade MRE's because that is what I am familiar with.  I have heard that Canadian MRE's are better, but have never tried them.

Look for them online, or on E-Bay, at Army Surplus Stores, camping stores, flea markets (especially those around Army bases) or, I have heard rumors of them being found at Sam's club and CostCo from time to time.  Definitely do your research though, as the prices can vary wildly from as low as $25/case of 12, to as high as $90/case of 12.

*Freeze Dried Meals and Entrees*

A company called Mountain House sells freeze dried meals and entrees that store for 7 years in the pouch, or 25 years in the can.  These, of course, require reconstitution with hot water.  Mountain House food is VERY popular with survivalists as well as backpackers, because of their long storage life, low space requirements, and light weight.

http://www.mountainhouse.com/

They sell a 3 day kit for one person for $47.29, and a 7 day kit for one person for $116.00.  These each contain 3 full meals per day, per person.

*Canned Long Term Food Storage*

This is the lynch-pin of my long term food storage plan.  I have discovered (through another forum) a company called MRE Depot http://www.mredepot.com/servlet/StoreFront that has MRE's (very expensive ones) freeze dried foods, and canned long term storage.  I am very impressed with their canned long term storage options, especially with regard to their canned meats.

For instance, they have canned beef chunks:

http://www.mredepot.com/servlet/the-...an-Beef/Detail

Which, for $69.95 buys you 21 pounds of beef chunks.  That's only $3.33 a pound, and because of how they actually fill the can with raw uncooked beef chunks, then can and seal it, and THEN cook it completely, it will store for 10 years.

To me, that's very impressive.  They also have ridiculously useful stuff, like a whole cooked chicken in a big can for $9.95:

http://www.mredepot.com/servlet/the-...en-Meat/Detail

(They offer discounts on full cases of 6 chickens)

Canned cheese, butter, chicken chunks, ground beef, pork, sausage, turkey, catsup and a lot more.

They also have long term storage canned desserts, which I found to be unusual; $15.99 for a 26 oz 10+ year shelf life Chocolate Bourbon Cake:

http://www.mredepot.com/servlet/the-...-Whisky/Detail

Four plus year storage canned garden seeds:

http://www.mredepot.com/servlet/the-...e-seeds/Detail

Specifically chosen to be heirloom seeds and non-hybrid seeds so that you can harvest your own seeds for the next season.  I just bought a case of these canned seeds and am awaiting delivery as we speak.

Canned flours sugars, and rices:

http://www.mredepot.com/servlet/the-...ods/Categories

Which use a "nitrogen flush then vacuum pack" process which gives whole grain brown rice a shelf life of "indefinite" which might mean 100 years or more.  Normally whole grain brown rice goes rancid after 3-4 years.

Explore the site, they have all kinds of useful stuff.  Another thing I have gotten from them, have been those little silica pack oxygen absorbers.  I buy (for my commodity food plan) bulk whole grain brown rice, which I then vacuum seal in 1.5 pounds per bag, with one of those oxygen absorbers inside each one to prevent/reduce "rancidification."  That boosts storage of the whole grain brown rice to something like 7-8 years.

*Commodity Foodstuffs*

These normally make up 80% of a given food storage plan, because they are far less expensive than the other options, and take up a lot less storage space.  Their shelf life, however, may vary widely depending on how they are stored.

These are the items that you are best able to get in bulk at your local CostCo, Sam's Club, or BJ's.  I am sure you can find them over the internet, but given that the cost of commodity foodstuffs are set a lot like the price of gold is set (this is why they are called 'commodity') you are probably better off getting them from a bulk/warehouse type store.  Now, your average Food Lion/Kroger's will tack a profit premium onto the end of the pricing, so they will be a bit more expensive.

These are mostly a matter of pure preference.  You may prefer lima beans over kidney beans.  In either case, get a variety.  Yes, you can go out and get 5 100 pound bags of rice, but do you really want to eat nothing but rice, rice, and only rice every single day for the next 1-2 years?

In either case, look for dried beans, rices, flour, sugar.  Get them in the biggest bags possible for the best per-volume pricing, and plan on using a vacuum sealer to store them in much smaller lots.

When it comes to rice, I do prefer the taste of white rice, but the fact is that the nutritional value of plain white rice is somewhat low.  You could potentially keep your belly full, but die of malnutrition (or at least not have the energy to work).  So focus more towards brown whole grain rice, which isn't quite as delectable, is slightly more expensive, and doesn't store for nearly as long.  But the method of vacuum sealing with a silica gel oxygen absorption pack mentioned above will help increase shelf life tremendously.

_Packaging Your Commodity Foodstuffs for Storage_

Even if the S never HTF, it is a good idea to get a vacuum sealer.  When I need to use one, I go to my mother and stepfather's house to use theirs, so as long as you have one accessible, it is not as important to have one in your house personally.

I take my 50 pound bag of rice, and scoop out a full-to-the-brim 1-quart mason jar of rice, dump it into the bag, toss in a silica gel pack, and then vacuum seal it and set it aside.  35-40 jars later, your 50 pound bag should be empty, and you should have a whole bunch of little 1+ pound bags of vacuum sealed oxygen deprived rice.  Then dump all of those into a 5 gallon sealable bucket, toss about 7 silica packs on top (once you have the bucket filled to the brim!) and then put the lid on it, and possibly seal the lid with duct tape to ensure an absolutely air-tight seal.  

You can do the same thing with beans, rice, sugar, or any other commodity foodstuff there are.  

One thing I have been thinking about doing (but have not done yet) is instead of filling one bucket with rice, another with lima beans etc etc; is to calculate the ratio in which I will use them, and then pack the buckets with a mixture of commodities.  

For instance, say one bucket has 15 pounds of sugar, 2 pounds of salt, 20 pounds of brown rice, 10 pounds of white flour, 10 pounds of wheat flour, 5 pounds of white rice, 5 pounds of lima beans, 5 pounds of kidney beans, and 5 pounds of black eyed peas.  That way, I can just open one bucket and use it until it's empty instead of opening 5 different buckets to gather a menu I might want; thus maintaining the integrity of the seal on the other buckets, to keep them stored longer.

You will also want to store your food in a cool, dark place.  For most food, the difference in shelf life between 60 degrees and 70 degrees is significant, and the difference in shelf life between 70 degrees and 80 degrees is dramatic.  If you have somewhere where they can be maintained at around 60 degrees without a lot of light, then you will have food stores for 10 years.

You store spices in the same way as commodities.  If you like pepper, then I would actually recommend using a pepper grinder and buying peppercorns, not only for long term storage (they store a LOT longer without losing flavor) but for everyday also, because fresh ground pepper is a lot better than already ground pepper.

*Growing Your Own Food* 

Even if you have 5 years of food stores, you never know what might happen.  You may get more people involved in your party, some of your food stores may be destroyed for whatever reason, you may need to barter some of your food stores out for medical supplies, or the 'emergency' might last longer than 5 years.

Bottom line is, no matter HOW much food you have stored, it is a good idea to be able to grow your own food, and it is an even further good idea to know how to do home canning, and have a canning kit available and on hand to store garden produce for consumption in the winter and spring.

The canned seeds mentioned above which sore for 4+ years are a great way to get started on this.  You can also store seeds in their envelopes by using the same vacuum seal with silica gel method as commodity foodstuffs to make them last as long as possible.

Regardless of which route you use to acquire and store seeds, it is important, very important to use heirloom and non-hybrid seeds.  If you use non heirloom (GMO) seeds, it is possible that your next generation will be sterile, and you will not have any seeds to continue growing, not to mention the potential health effects of GMO foods!  Likewise, hybrid seeds will not necessarily be very productive in the next generation.

It is important to save your seeds!  Once you grow your first crop, that crop will produce seeds which you can use to plant the next season.  If you do not save your seeds, you will have nothing to plant the next season, and you will be out begging for food.

Have a book handy on basic gardening and farming.

Don't overlook the usefulness of having chickens for meat and eggs, and possibly a cow for milk.  Hay and chicken feed are very easy to grow, and take very little attention.  Milk and eggs will be one of the first things to go in the PAW, so even if you never eat/drink them yourself, they will be a barter commodity as good as gold!

Now, nobody wants to care for cows and chickens for years and years waiting for them to become useful when the SHTF, so become friendly with some farmers so that you can buy one/some from him when it all goes to hell.

----------


## SeanEdwards

This thread just gets better and better. It should definetely be made into a sticky.





> Don't overlook the usefulness of having chickens for meat and eggs, and possibly a cow for milk.


I've heard that rabbits are a very easy farmable animal to work with, and they reproduce like rabbits so they're productive.

----------


## rancher89

goats will eat anything and are easy to raise also, you just need a little bit more room...

thanks, gunny for the thread

----------


## Meatwasp

Something very funny happened down here. My son made several early warning systems on our trail. One buzzed every time a cloud   went by. We called that a cloud counter. The other he installed by digging a trap door thing that was covered with dirt. But When the sun dried it iit moved like  a trap door that would fling people into nowhere.  It certainly frightened a lot of people  he removed that in a hurry. The other one the lizards would climb in the radio transmiter and  caused it to sound like a guitar going off.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Something very funny happened down here. My son made several early warning systems on our trail. One buzzed every time a cloud   went by. We called that a cloud counter. The other he installed by digging a trap door thing that was covered with dirt. But When the sun dried it iit moved like  a trap door that would fling people into nowhere.  It certainly frightened a lot of people  he removed that in a hurry. The other one the lizards would climb in the radio transmiter and  caused it to sound like a guitar going off.


ROFL!  I remember when I was a kid, and I used to make my M80 tripwires, there was very often a "POP!" followed by a deer or a feral dog tearing off into the woods...

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> goats will eat anything and are easy to raise also, you just need a little bit more room...
> 
> thanks, gunny for the thread


And goats do provide milk.  Good call!

And, anytime!  When I'm finally done with the series, I'll probably be posting it on several oter forums too, so it's helping me to get this knocked out also.  ;-)

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> This thread just gets better and better. It should definetely be made into a sticky.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard that rabbits are a very easy farmable animal to work with, and they reproduce like rabbits so they're productive.


I agree with this -- rabbits are a lot easier to raise, and provide a very renewable food source.

Additionally, you can start putting out feed corn for deer.  I don't necessarily agree with using feed corn to lure deer for ordinary hunting, but by making your back yard a haven for deer now, then in the PAW after the SHTF, all bts are off and survival becomes the rule of the day.

And thanks for the kind word!

----------


## Hawk45

Another plus for domestic rabbits is the fact they are the only red meat with 0 chloresterol (or however it is spelled).  LOL

No matter what you eat the human body DOES need protein to be able to do hard work.  And 'survival' is hard work!

Main thing is that the folks that prepare NOW can do it in some sort of comfort we are used to.  The folks that do not will not fare that well, if they survive at all.

----------


## TruckinMike

Noise maker:

1. Balloon 
2. Rocket igniters
3. Oxygen/acetylene rig
4. Trip wire, battery, and relay

Fill the balloon with 1/3 Acetylene and 2/3 oxygen. Tape rocket igniter to Balloon, then set trip wire, relay and battery.

When tripped, expect to feel the concussion at over 50 feet away! 

TMike

Note: Use a mylar balloon to keep gas from escaping over time.
Note#2: These are great for getting rid of grackles, and a lot cheaper than buying a propane grackle cannon.

----------


## Ozwest

Sorry, but I haven't read this thread.

But...

PAW =  Post Apocalyptic World  Good thing I don't have to spell or say Apocalyptic again.

Now I can just say PAW, and everyone will know who I am.

----------


## Ozwest

> I agree with this -- rabbits are a lot easier to raise, and provide a very renewable food source.
> 
> Additionally, you can start putting out feed corn for deer.  I don't necessarily agree with using feed corn to lure deer for ordinary hunting, but by making your back yard a haven for deer now, then in the PAW after the SHTF, all bts are off and survival becomes the rule of the day.
> 
> And thanks for the kind word!


Let your rabbits loose, and you'll soon be feeding the nation.

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

> Thats a hard call. Most EMTs use modern equipment like defibrilators, oxygen, nitroglycerin, neck braces, IV lines, etc. They are there to stabilize a person and get them to an emergency room for surgery or more advanced analysis. Basic First Aid, CPR is for until the EMTs arrive.
> 
>  It definitly would help to take such a course, as well as read about home remedies. Good to know basics for the start, simple little things like giving someone an asprin during a heart attack could save thier life. Id recommend taking a day CPR/First Aid class to give you an idea before taking an EMT program.


I noticed that no one mentioned us in the medical links...

Remote, Austere, Wilderness & Third World Medicine Forum:

http://medtech.syrene.net/forum/index.php

The site is more useful if you register.


We, ummm... wrote a book that you might be interested in:

Survival and Austere Medicine, 2nd edition.  You can download it here for free, or you can buy a copy at cost (we don't make anything) from Cafe Press:

http://www.aussurvivalist.com/downlo...0Final%202.pdf

Yes, I'm one of the authors.  We're trying to get a third edition out the door, with a lot more hands on procedures and how to, but it's been really slow going...

Austere medicine is a lot different than what you learn in EMT school.
IV solutions are most often used to stabilize someone on the way to surgery, if there is no surgery to go to, they become mostly irrelevant for this purpose.
They can also be used to establish a life line - if you have IV drugs and know how to use them.
They are also used to feed patients that can't eat.
You can make your own IV solutions.
BP cuffs and C-Collars are over rated.
You don't need a X-Ray machine to tell if someones leg is broken or fractured, a tunning fork and a stethoscope work fine.
You can make many medicines, including insulin.
Disposable supplies often aren't, but supplies designed to be reused are better.
Expiration dates, with few exceptions, are artificial and the real shelf life of drugs is much longer.  A lot depends on storage conditions, however.
etc.

-n

----------


## the_british_are_coming

> Your posts today are pretty abrasive.
> 
> The OP shoots .556 and .308.  Relative to those chamberings, a .22 is a whisper.   Hell, relative to my .45, a .22 is a whisper. 
> 
> Outdoor shooting a .22... crack crack
> 
> Outdoor shooting a .308 BOOM BOON
> 
> big difference.


 

Relative to stepping on a stick, a .22 is FREAKING LOUD!!!! didn't say "relative" to anything!!!!!  just grading it on it's own measures. 


in the woods, or in PAW, boom is boom, no matter how loud. 

BOTH ARE IDENTIFYING. Anyone who says different is only posting on a break from their video gaming.


ETA: Kalifornia... if i'm NOT abrasive... you know my account has been hacked.

----------


## the_british_are_coming

> When you are in the PAW hunting rabbit for survival, you aren't exactly evading NVA in the bush.  
> 
> Depending on the model .22 you are shooting (a Ruger 10/22 is a lot louder than a Marlin .22, for instance) the sound of a .22 can get utterly lost in "woods noises" at around 150 to 200 yards in dense forest.
> 
> And as to choosing a .22 over a 9mm, if you shoot a rabbit with a 9mm there won't be that much of it left to eat, whereas with a .22 there won't really be a lot of damage at all.  Not to mention, a .22 with a scope can hit a rabbit in the head at 75 yards with no problem, but a 9mm pistol will have to be within 25 yards or less to guarantee a body hit.
> 
> And yes, a 9mm is a LOT louder than a .22 LR -- especially a Marlin .22



Hey Bud. up until your post, NOBODY was talking about hunting. Just PAW existence.

If you want to change rules, that's fine, but you don't get to just pull sh!t into any straw-man argument you feel like. nope, doesn't work that way.


Oh, and btw, what exactly makes a 24 inch Marlin quieter than any other 24 inch .22 bolt-action rifle? i would love to know that.

----------


## Dr.3D

> *P*ost* A*pocalyptic *W*orld.
> There will be no "Fed"," Poaching", or PETA.
> Therefor YOU get the "cake".


Thanks pcosmar, I guess he didn't read the PAW part of the post.

Anyway...
Here is a little bit about putting up food for long term storage.

Long term food storage part 1
Long term food storage part 2
Long term food storage part 3
How to seal Mylar bags with a clothes iron

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Hey Bud. up until your post, NOBODY was talking about hunting. Just PAW existence.
> 
> If you want to change rules, that's fine, but you don't get to just pull sh!t into any straw-man argument you feel like. nope, doesn't work that way.


So what are you saying, that after society completely breaks down, human beings will no longer need to eat?




> Oh, and btw, what exactly makes a 24 inch Marlin quieter than any other 24 inch .22 bolt-action rifle? i would love to know that.


Well, if you had ever actually fired them, then the difference would be obvious.  And a Marlin Glenfield Model 60 is decidedly *not* a bolt action.

I for one have personally been on a firing line with several different models of .22 LR rifles, and without fail, the Marlins produce half or less the amount of noise.  

You hear POP POP pff pff POP pff POP pff pff POP POP, and with every 'POP' the 10/22s recoil, but with every 'pff' the Marlins recoil.

You simply saying 'it can't be so' doesn't change the fact of reality, no matter how hard you might want it to be.

By the way, I have seen you posting in several threads, and I am just curious -- why do you always pick the most active, useful, and generous contributors to RPF and label them 'plants'?

Also, I notice in your sig that you are proud of 'killing threads,' is it really an openly stated goal of yours to kill off any potentially useful threads within the Ron Paul Forums?

And, why are you always pitching a fit about how people who are experts in their respective fields, must be dead wrong when discussing any of the things they know the most about?  I get the impression that you would pitch a fit against an expert and prominent surgeon who is properly explaining an appendectomy, and wail on about how the surgeon must be an idiot.

Do you really think that people around here give you any credence?  You must know that Ron People are, by and large, critical thinkers, and far more capable than the average sheep of analyzing contributors on their own merits.  The fact is that in your 70 some-odd strong posting history, you have displayed zero merit, which is kind of a death-knell amongst critical thinkers such as we find on RPF.

Or, when everybody in a thread replies to you to tell you how much of an idiot you are, is that what you consider to be 'killing a thread?'

The bottom line is, pretty much everything you post is divorced from reality, and comes purely from the realm of your own fantasies.  The problem is, that Ron Paul people tend to be very critical thinkers, and cannot be influenced in the way that sheeple are.  Simply insinuating that someone is a moron doesn't work on us the way it works on McCain voters or Obama voters.  Too bad for you, huh?

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> I noticed that no one mentioned us in the medical links...
> 
> Remote, Austere, Wilderness & Third World Medicine Forum:
> 
> http://medtech.syrene.net/forum/index.php
> 
> The site is more useful if you register.
> 
> 
> ...


Hey, I really appreciate it.  Those are great links, and slam full of extremely useful information.  I've looked at them, and reccommend them for everyone concerned about medicine in the PAW.

----------


## Perry

Don't know about the rest of you but I'm not planning on sticking around post- Apocalypse.

----------


## Dr.3D

> Don't know about the rest of you but I'm not planning on sticking around post- Apocalypse.


Got a space ship?

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> *P*ost* A*pocalyptic *W*orld.
> There will be no "Fed"," Poaching", or PETA.
> Therefor YOU get the "cake".


Ehh, I wouldn't worry too much about this 'british' guy.  It is blatantly obvious from a review of his posting history that he is opposed to Ron Paul having any kind of influence on the real world, and since RP people tend to actualy pay attention to such things (unlike the sheeple in the rest of the world) then nobody here will take him seriously.  He is only here to create division amongst us and try to sow chaos within the RP Forums.  If these were John McCain Forums, then people might stand back and cheer him like it was WWF or some such, breaking chairs over peoples heads.  But the folks on here really don't go in for cheering the dirtiest fighter etc.  

Folks on RPF want facts and truth, not rhetoric and mindless b*tching.  I doubt you have to worry about him influencing anybodies opinion against you, no matter how many threads he follows you around to whine about you.  In fact, someoneone so obviously anti-Paul as he is, following you around from thread to thread to try and discredit you, probably BOOSTS your credibility on RPF, to tell you the truth!

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Don't know about the rest of you but I'm not planning on sticking around post- Apocalypse.





> Got a space ship?


Got room for a few more?

----------


## Kalifornia

> Got room for a few more?


Hell, Ill leave NOW!  Why wait around for PAW to blaze a new frontier?

----------


## Perry

> Got a space ship?


I have better than a spaceship.

----------


## Dr.3D

> I have better than a spaceship.


If you're counting on a pre-tribulation rapture, don't hold your breath.

----------


## Perry

> If you're counting on a pre-tribulation rapture, don't hold your breath.


When it is does not matter. Only that it is.
Too many people lose their way and waste time arguing about the "whens". 
It is neither required nor appointed unto man to know when.
Do I plan on packing a twelve gauge and wearing leather if I must weather the trib,
(whenever that may be)? I doubt it.

----------


## sfws09

http://http://apnews.myway.com/artic...D90S5MLG0.html

----------


## Dr.3D

> http://http://apnews.myway.com/artic...D90S5MLG0.html


Here is a corrected link that works. 

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080524/D90S5MLG0.html

----------


## Mini-Me

Damn, I thought I've seen pathetic before, but the_british_are_coming takes the cake for reckless and incessant mudslinging without contributing anything of substance to the conversation.

That said, I really hope Kade is right and Gunny is entirely overprepared for what's actually going to happen...otherwise, I'm entirely unprepared.  Sure, I'm expecting hard times.  I'm anticipating eventual economic collapse, food shortages and extremely high prices, and for a time, the store shelves might even be empty...but complete post-societal apocalypse?  That's a scary thought (although perhaps more welcoming than the nightmarishly oppressive scenario I'm imagining).  It's very likely that the bankrupt federal government will become increasingly socialistic and tyrannical, even to the point of putting all food on a ration system.  The control grid has been set out (and it's being tightened with Real ID, etc.), and living "off the grid" is eventually going to be nigh impossible...we may end up facing a lose/lose choice of living under an overt police state and martial law in the middle of a long economic depression or making an almost certainly suicidal stand against it (judging by the complacency of most Americans).  I'm just not seeing any lawless scenario under which overbearing government simply collapses and fades into nonexistence.  Governments have a way of perpetuating their existence, and if the federal government falls, it will simply be replaced by an even worse NAU government.
I do agree that desperate bands of looters can easily become an issue, but...the way I see it, there are two choices:
"Bugging in" seems to be the docile and passive life of a person blending in with the "I Love Big Brother" crowd in order to remain a part of society and ride out the storm.  Sure, you can purify your water and try to protect your stores of food with guns and ammo, but the first time you try that, you'll probably be taken in by the "proper authorities" for owning illegal firearms...so the best shot you have is probably to make it seem like you're as hungry as everyone else.  Then again, you can "bug in" Waco or Ruby Ridge style too, but..."Bugging out" seems to be the life of a fugitive on the run, especially considering the guns you need for hunting will probably become very, very illegal soon (once again leaving you with the choice of making a suicidal stand or not once you're "caught").

Neither choice is particularly appealing, but I'm not seeing many alternatives in the event that all peaceful and political liberty-saving measures fail.  Am I completely off base here?  Keep in mind, I'm probably the worst person in the whole world at survivalism.  Although I'm sharp and a critical thinker, I'm the same video-game-playing, sheltered couch potato that survivalists make fun of.   I've only fired a gun once in my life, I'm scared to death of chemicals and explosives (including firecrackers, since I'm adamant about keeping all of my fingers), I have no first aid knowledge, no farming/gardening knowledge, and to top it all off (giving away my age and overall inexperience for the first time ever on the forum ), I'm a recent college graduate still living at home with my parents.  In some ways, that may be for the best - uncertain economic/financial/political times are probably not the best ones for moving out and starting a lifetime of rent or mortgage payments and debt.  It's wise to minimize expenses.  On the other hand, that definitely limits the freedom I have to, say, learn how to handle firearms (let alone deal with arcane "black magic" like reloading).  Hell, I don't even know where to begin, muchless begin without arousing suspicion of being a nutcase.  

So I guess my question is, once again - am I completely off base here?  What kind of scenario are you guys (particularly Gunny) actually envisioning that necessitates all of these measures without making them almost futile (particularly with respect to guns)?

----------


## pcosmar

Mini-Me  
This thread is an examination of the "worst case "scenario. Surviving in a Post apocalyptic world.
Though I don't expect it to be a PAW, I do see things getting bad. This is a good discussion of how to deal with possible events and responses to them.
Survivalist is a mind set. Not a fearful response but one of preparedness. Much like the old Boy Scout motto, *Be Prepared.*
It goes to learning skills to become self sufficient and confident.
I like to live my life as comfortably as possible, but I always keep a plan "B".
When I chose my home, I considered Location, Water supplies, Heating (multiple fuels).
I dislike large cities, so I am far from one. I can grow food, hunt the many varieties of game, fish and heat and cook with wood if necessary.
For those in other situations, it is a consideration of what resources and skills they have and adding skills and tools that may be useful.  Keeping  in mind that things can change at any time and having a mental attitude to accept and adapt to those changes.

----------


## MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2

> So I guess my question is, once again - am I completely off base here?  What kind of scenario are you guys (particularly Gunny) actually envisioning that necessitates all of these measures without making them almost futile (particularly with respect to guns)?


Natural disaster?  Anyone familiar with Hurricane Katrina knows what it looks like when infrastructure breaks down.  Even the federal government suggests everyone should have food and water for 3 days.  I bet less than 5% actually do.

Serious pandemic?  I could envision scenarios where I wouldn't want to leave the house for a few weeks.  Again, I keep hearing about the threat.

Bioterrorism?  Who knows.

Anyone think congress doesn't have food and water for 3 days?  They have full fledged bunkers built to withstand nearly anything, for long periods of time.  I'll bet they have serious weaponry protecting their preperations. 

I look at it like this.  I spend about 2% of my efforts (or less) being prepared for some terrible scenarios.  I spend 98% of my efforts on more likely scenarios, like things staying relatively normal.  Because I'm somewhat prepared for something terrible, I spend little time thinking about it, and no time fearing it.  I've already done what I reasonably can.

I live in an area where hurricanes are a real threat every year.  Everyone knows it.  Even so, 99% of people don't have a week's worth of food and water.  When a hurricane develops, 10% run to the stores and empty them.  The rest prefer not to prepare at all.  What if something happens suddenly, like a tsunami?  

As far as weapons go... if you have a breakdown in infrastructure, you can't expect everyone to be civil.  I look at Katrina as a model.  In a really bad scenario, you might need to shoot your own food.

----------


## Smiley Gladhands

> To everyone on RonPaulForums. please read the respons from GunnyFreedom posted below.


This thread was really interesting and useful until you tried to start arguments over meaningless (and off-topic) minutiae.  I hope it can quickly recover from the distraction, and that you go find a less-useful thread to try and kill.

(p.s.-no response is needed...I will not respond to any response)

----------


## Mini-Me

> This thread was really interesting and useful until you tried to start arguments over meaningless (and off-topic) minutiae.  I hope it can quickly recover from the distraction, and that you go find a less-useful thread to try and kill.
> 
> (p.s.-no response is needed...I will not respond to any response)


Agreed, so *bump*.
Thanks to everyone for the insights, btw - I was thinking with a one-track mind, assuming the only threat is tyranny.

----------


## Time for Change

By far one of the most informative and truly interesting threads EVER.
A lot of time went into providing well thought out information, and it was delivered in a concise and thought provoking way.

Thanks to the OP and everyone for taking the time to share your experience and insight.

Keep 'em coming

----------


## yongrel

Yet another awesome thread, courtesy of Gunny. Thanks!

----------


## mexicanpizza

This thread is amazing.  This is why i registered www.apocalypsevan.com , but haven't gotten around to putting up a forum.   

edit: Looks like SHTFmilitia.com and zombiesquad have saved me the work!

----------


## amy31416

I didn't read through the entire thread, but what place does Spam have in the PAW?

----------


## Ozwest

No one's going to attack America.

Except...

It's own government.

I'd be having a town meeting, and blowing up bridges.

$#@! running for the hills.

----------


## Cowlesy

> I look at it like this.  I spend about 2% of my efforts (or less) being prepared for some terrible scenarios.  I spend 98% of my efforts on more likely scenarios, like things staying relatively normal.  Because I'm somewhat prepared for something terrible, I spend little time thinking about it, and no time fearing it.  I've already done what I reasonably can.


Totally in agreement with you.  I live in NYC, so if SHTF here, well, pretty much everyone is screwed.  That being said, I'd say 99.8% of the 8,000,000 people have no preparedness, so I am hoping my margin of actually thinking about this (my friends all laugh at me) will give me an edge.  It cracks me up when I pose the question "If you really needed to leave NYC immediately due to a catastrophic disaster, are you prepared to do so given there are 8,000,000 other people thinking the same thing, and we're on an island with only a few routes to the mainland?" and I get the "if you're so freaked out why are you here?" retort.

I'm not freaked out at all, or else, why would I live here?  I don't see anything wrong with being prepared.  Typically when you pose the 8,000,000 other people running for the exit argument, they start thinking about it a little more in a serious fashion.  Being Prepared and being Paranoid are two different schools of thought in my personal opinion.

Fortunately this Eagle Scout likes to hike because no one is driving out of this city if everyone tries to leave at once

----------


## amy31416

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best. There's no shame in that. 

From an economic standpoint, would it be akin to investing if non-perishable foods are stocked up on now? I mean, essentially, if the worst happens, it's a form of currency even more valuable than gold. 

Despite that, I still can't get down with Spam or chicken in a can. I'm sticking to tuna.

----------


## Ozwest

> Prepare for the worst, hope for the best. There's no shame in that. 
> 
> From an economic standpoint, would it be akin to investing if non-perishable foods are stocked up on now? I mean, essentially, if the worst happens, it's a form of currency even more valuable than gold. 
> 
> Despite that, I still can't get down with Spam or chicken in a can. I'm sticking to tuna.


Whiskey and cigarettes.

I'm well stocked.

----------


## amy31416

> Whiskey and cigarettes.
> 
> I'm well stocked.


Alcohol, tobacco and ________.

The trinity.

----------


## Ozwest

I am a natural indwelling of three persons.

Pretty good for an atheist.

I do my best...

----------


## Ozwest

Sometimes...

You are the Good - Bad - and the Ugly.

----------


## amy31416

> Sometimes...
> 
> You are the Good - Bad - and the Ugly.


Hey now. I have a bad side and a worse side--choose wisely!

----------


## Ozwest

*Trinity*...

----------


## Cowlesy

Someone on this board must have one of these bad-boys

----------


## Ozwest

Where do you get one of those *Bad Boys* Cowlesy?

----------


## Cowlesy

Here is an interesting idea for those of us in NYC that would compliment hiking.

http://www.militarybikes.com/products.html

Some interesting comparisons

http://www.militarybikes.com/comparison.html

It's been tested in Iraq, and you could also fold it up and carrying it when riding it might not be an option.  I may pick one of these up. If the worst happened and I had to go essentially back home, it'd take 15 days hiking with a pack, or 5 days with a bike.  I like the bike option better 

Just thought I'd share

----------


## Cowlesy

> Where do you get one of those *Bad Boys* Cowlesy?


beats me, that's why I wondered if anyone had one

----------


## Ozwest

> beats me, that's why I wondered if anyone had one


Be great for duck hunting.

----------


## Cowlesy

> Be great for duck hunting.


hahaha --- yeah especially with the hatch on the roof.

----------


## Ozwest

> hahaha --- yeah especially with the hatch on the roof.


Hounds would never had it so good!

----------


## pcosmar

I want a set of these for my truck.
http://www.mattracks.com/

From their gallery,



Perfect for my neighborhood.

----------


## newyearsrevolution08

> I want a set of these for my truck.
> http://www.mattracks.com/
> 
> From their gallery,
> 
> 
> 
> Perfect for my neighborhood.


that is sweet looking. Man I need to get myself land soon so I can start getting some toys together. Nice find.

I like the atv option myself
http://www.mattracks.com/html/atv_tracks.htm

They have videos of them here
http://www.litefootatv.com/html/video_clips.htm

----------


## Dr.3D

I found these pages to be quite interesting.
Canning Butter
Canning Dried Hamburger

I found them on this web site where there is a lot of good information:
End Times Report

----------


## amy31416

> I found these pages to be quite interesting.
> Canning Butter
> Canning Dried Hamburger
> 
> I found them on this web site where there is a lot of good information:
> End Times Report


Canned butter--that's a lot like ghee: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghee

----------


## Dr.3D

> Canned butter--that's a lot like ghee: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghee


Yes, except they didn't remove the milk solids from it.

Here is a recipe for making Ghee.
Glorious Golden Ghee (Neyyi)

----------


## amy31416

> Yes, except they didn't remove the milk solids from it.
> 
> Here is a recipe for making Ghee.
> Glorious Golden Ghee (Neyyi)


Yeah, I was wondering how much of a difference in taste that makes. Personally, I dig ghee.

----------


## Cowlesy

Who said the quote, "Give a man a fish. Feed him for a day.  Teach a man to fish.  Feed him for life."?

----------


## Dr.3D

> Who said the quote, "Give a man a fish. Feed him for a day.  Teach a man to fish.  Feed him for life."?


From what I understand, it was a fellow named Lao Tzu. 
http://blogwonks.com/2008/03/03/mond...cs-philosophy/

Here are other quotes from Lao Tzu.
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/au...l/lao_tzu.html

----------


## asgardshill

An RPF poster whose home was apparently in danger of being consumed by wildfire started another thread, noting that she would probably be evacuating as quickly as possible.  She checked back in several hours after bugging out, so presumably her place is OK.

I'm a firm believer in being prepared for just such an emergency, whether it is fire, natural disaster, flood, or societal unrest. To that end, I have compiled a variety of essential items into what I call a bugout bag. My "bag" is a plastic tool chest on wheels, kept in the back of the closet in the front hallway, which can easily be snagged on my way out the door.

I keep a printed list, frequently updated, of items that are not actually inside the bag that I need to go grab before bugging out. I've attached copies of this list to the front of the bag for quick reference, and each item on the list is prioritized in sequential order. This list includes any and all camping supplies and portable generator/fuel that I keep elsewhere in the house and garage, instructions to fill up my water supply and/or grab any bottled water and food in the kitchen, medications, money and valuables kept elsewhere, etc.

Here's some of what I keep in my bugout bag:

*BUGOUT BAG
*
batteries
battery charger, solar
blanket, emergency
camp stove with fuel
candles
cell phone (did you know that you can use any cell phone, even one that is not activated, to call 911?)
clothing kit (packed depending on the season)
copies of important papers (birth certificates, DD-214, insurance policies, prescriptions, name and phone number of insurance agent and main offices of insurance carrier, family and friends out of area, name of family attorney, copies of deeds, titles, ID cards, passport, and inventory list of Bugout Bag contents)
duplicates of credit cards
first aid kit
fishing kit
flashlights and other light sources
food (Mainstay "lifeboat bars", freeze-dried, MREs)
GPS
hard drive, external (contains all financial and personal records, updated monthly)
keys to everything
kitchen pack (utensils, matches, mess kit, etc.)
knives (Swiss Army, machete, others)
laptop (contains scans of all family photos)
med kit (all prescriptions, OTC meds, vitamins)
money (roll of quarters, some FRNs, gold and silver)
money belt
pen, pencil and paper
phone book
phone cards
portable toilet and supplies
radios
solar still kit
spares kit (bulbs, mantles, sewing, general repair)
sunblock
survival guide
tactical harness (holds canteens, weapon belt, and small items in pockets and hanging from belt. I built it from a surplus SWAT tactical harness. Good for keeping essentials at arm's length if you have to go into town)
tape
tarp
tent
toilet paper
tool kit (hammer, screws, nails, saws, screwdrivers, shovel, etc.)
topo maps annotated with GPS coordinates
towels
water (12 bricks retort packaged and water jugs (kept full and rotated))
water purifier (Katadyn Hiker) with spare filters
weapons with ammo
whistle

The whole bugout bag, water included, is light enough for me to lift it into my vehicle and/or just pull around.
*
CAR KIT*

The car kit is squeezed into one of those overengineered military surplus 12 x 10 x 8 cartridge boxes, mounted under one of the back seats.

bandana                              
blanket, space  
can opener           
candle             
coffee filters         
compass
cord, Nylon
cotton swabs   
cough drops
cup, stainless 
duct tape
fire starter kit (titanium bar)
first aid kit (in glove box)
fishing kit 
fishing line
fishing pole/reel    
flashlight
foil   
food (Mainstay “lifeboat bars”)
hand warmers
jumper cables (in trunk)
knife     
light sticks
lighter
lip balm
mask, dust
matches, waterproof
med kit
mirror
paper, pen and pencil
poncho
radio
saw, wire
sewing kit
sponge
spork
starter/battery charger, cigarette-lighter type (in glove box)
tent, tube
toilet paper
toothpicks
towelettes
trash bag
Trioxane tabs
water (6 bricks retort packaged)
water purification tabs
whistle
wire, snare
Ziploc bags

----------


## asgardshill

Here's a little gizmo I wouldn't mind getting my hands on, especially if I lived near the ocean.  

http://www.landfallnav.com/-sas35.html



PUR
Survivor 35
Manual Watermaker

Katadyn Item # 8013433
The PUR Survivor 35 water maker is widely used by U.S. and International military forces, voyagers, sea kayakers and other adventurers worldwide. The PUR Survivor 35 is capable of producing up to 1.2 gallons per hour by manually hand-pumping!
# Specifications: Water Production (+/- 15%): 1.2 gallons/hour (4.5 liters/hour)
# Weight: 7 lbs (3.2 kg)
# Dimensions: 5.5" x 22" x 3.5" (14 x 55.9 x 8.9 cm)
# Salt Rejection: 98.4% average (95.3% minimum)
# Average Pump Rate: 30 strokes/minute
# US Coast Guard Approval Number: 160.058/6/0 

They're pricey, but having one would mean that water would no longer be a survival problem.

----------


## amy31416

Good stuff Asgard. I'm just going to add one vital thing to your lists: toothpaste/toothbrush.

----------


## asgardshill

> Good stuff Asgard. I'm just going to add one vital thing to your lists: toothpaste/toothbrush.


Good catch - I should have listed the hygiene kit inside the clothing kit separately.  That's where TB/TP, soap, sanitary napkins, etc. are stored.  

Note: I think there's about 10 feet of duct tape wrapped around the toothbrush.  Makes it interesting to use, but saves space elsewhere.

----------


## asgardshill

My main medical kit is stored in a military surplus M3 combat medic bag, wrapped in a 2-gallon Ziploc to keep it dry.  The kit consists of a variety of sub-kits, each separately labeled and packaged.

*Medical Kit, Main*

_Bandages_
2nd Skin pad, 2 x 3 (3)	
abdominal pad, 5 x 9 (1)	
adhesive pad, 2 x 2 (1)
bandage, Ace (2)	
bandage, butterfly (8)	
bandage, Kling, roll, 2 x 10 yd (1)	
bandage, knuckle (2)	
bandage, liquid, NewSkin (1)
bandage, pressure, 113/4" (1)
bandage, triangular, 51 w/safety pin (1)	
bandaid, large (15)	
bandaid, small (10)
dressing, Tegaderm, 6 x 7 cm (2)
eye pad, gauze, 15/8  x 25/8 (2)	
gauze roll, 2 x 6 yd (2)	
gauze pad, 2 x 2 (6)
gauze pad, 3 x 3 (6)	
gauze pad, 4 x 4 (6)
moleskin, 2½ x 1½ (1)
Steri-strip, 3 x 75 mm (1)
Telfa pad, 2 x 3 (5)
Telfa pad, 2 x 4½ (1)

_Disinfectants_
alcohol, tube, .67ml (1) 
hydrogen peroxide, 1 oz
sanitizer, hand (alcohol) (1) 
soap (1 bar)
swab, benzoin tincture (2) 	
swab, iodine (1) 	
swab, prep, Povidone/iodine, 0.6 ml (3)
wipes, alcohol prep (9)                                        
wipes, antibacterial, large (pack)
wipes, antiseptic, small (9)
wipes, Povidone (2)

_Dental_
dental emergency filling kit (1)
dental pain kit (1)
OraJel (2 tubes)

_Meds_
Alka Seltzer (2)
Aleve (naproxen sodium)/aspirin/Dramamine/ES Tylenol/Orudis KT (ketoprofen) (12 ea)
Chloraseptic (4)
electrolyte tabs (12)
glucose tabs (2 tubes)
Imodium AD (12)
laxative (12)
prescription meds  (7 day supply, rotate as needed)
Rolaids (3 tubes)
Zantac (antacid) (2)

_Reference_
Emergency War Surgery
US Army Special Forces Medical Handbook

_Surgical_
alcohol prep pad (6)
applicator swab, cotton (2)
applicator swab, Betadine (4)
bandaids, large (1 pk)
bandaids, small (1 pk)
benzalkonium chloride prep pad (4)
germicidal wipes (1 pk)
hemostat, curved (1)
hemostat, lg straight (1)
hemostat, small straight (1)
ointment, triple antibiotic (1)
pick, dental (1)
pipette, plastic (1)
Povidone/iodine prep pad (6)
scalpel, #11 (1)
scissors, bandage (1)
shears, EMT (1)
sutures, 6-0 Nylon (6)
tweezers (1)

_Tools_
ammonia inhalant (3)
bag, waste (1)
blanket, emergency (1)
compress pack, cold (1)
CPR rescue breather (1)
ear plugs (1 pr)
flashlight (hanging on bag) (1)
gloves, exam (2 pr)
lace, boot (1)
lighter, butane (1)
marker, red (1)
mirror, dental, curved (1)
nail clippers (1)
notepad (1)
pen (1)
poncho, disposable (1)
ring cutter (1)
safety pins (6)
SAM splint (1)
Sawyer extractor (1)
snakebite kit (1)
splint, finger (1)
stethoscope (1)
swabs, cotton (10)
tape, athletic, cling roll (3)
thermometer/sheaths (1/10)
tick remover (1)
tongue depressors (6)

_Topical_
analgesic gel, Perform (4)
Benadryl, stick (1)
burn cream (3)	
BurnFree, gel (1)	
Carmex (1)
chapstick (1)
inhalant, ammonia (1)
lubricant, surgical, 3 g  (1)	
ointment, triple antibiotic (15)
petroleum jelly, tube (1)
saline, tube, 3 ml (2)
wipes, sting relief (2)

----------


## amy31416

Ya know what Asgard? I'm just going to keep this real simple and put a map to your place in my glove box. 

I'll bring a car fulla food, books (can't leave those behind!) and everything you need for s'mores.

----------


## asgardshill

> Ya know what Asgard? I'm just going to keep this real simple and put a map to your place in my glove box. 
> 
> I'll bring a car fulla food, books (can't leave those behind!) and everything you need for s'mores.


*snicker*

Better head to southern Utah then.  'cos that's where I'll be if the balloon REALLY goes up.  My campsite will be just past the third rock near that cow skull

----------


## amy31416

> *snicker*
> 
> Better head to southern Utah then.  'cos that's where I'll be if the balloon REALLY goes up.  My campsite will be just past the third rock near that cow skull


Excellent. I think I know the place-- isn't there a cactus nearby?

----------


## asgardshill

> Excellent. I think I know the place-- isn't there a cactus nearby?


Three of them, actually.  But they keep disappearing - Californicators keep digging them up for their yards, so I just embedded the cow skull in reinforced concrete as a landmark.

----------


## amy31416

> Three of them, actually.  But they keep disappearing - Californicators keep digging them up for their yards, so I just embedded the cow skull in reinforced concrete as a landmark.


Commie bastards.

Seriously though, thanks for the extensive lists. I copied and pasted and the only thing I think that is different about mine is that I have a list of chemicals and would like to put together a portable still of some sort as well (no, not just for moonshine )

----------


## asgardshill

> I copied and pasted and the only thing I think that is different about mine is that I have a list of chemicals and would like to put together a portable still of some sort as well (no, not just for moonshine )


Yeah, some of the "chemicals" in mine aren't listed, but I know they're there.  It helps to have a sister who's an RN and a cooperative doc willing to prescribe certain ... er, "stuff" I squirrel away in the med kit for emergency use, especially to a non-doctor.  (Hell, as much as he makes from my aches and pains, he'd BETTER be cooperative.)

I'm fascinated about the still though - if not for poteen, what would you need to distill out in the boonies?  (If its a sensitive topic, I understand).  Having a father who was in the business, the only recommendations I can make right offhand are:

- Don't use an old car or truck radiator as your condenser due to the lead in the old ones, and just about all radiators nowadays are plastic.

- Set up your still as high as possible with good sight lines so you can defend it.

- The more heavily-wooded and remote area you can find to locate your still, the better.  (For fuel and protection from prying eyes and noses).

----------


## amy31416

> Yeah, some of the "chemicals" in mine aren't listed, but I know they're there.  It helps to have a sister who's an RN and a cooperative doc willing to prescribe certain ... er, "stuff" I squirrel away in the med kit for emergency use, especially to a non-doctor.  (Hell, as much as he makes from my aches and pains, he'd BETTER be cooperative.)
> 
> I'm fascinated about the still though - if not for poteen, what would you need to distill out in the boonies?  (If its a sensitive topic, I understand).  Having a father who was in the business, the only recommendations I can make right offhand are:
> 
> - Don't use an old car or truck radiator as your condenser due to the lead in the old ones, and just about all radiators nowadays are plastic.
> 
> - Set up your still as high as possible with good sight lines so you can defend it.
> 
> - The more heavily-wooded and remote area you can find to locate your still, the better.  (For fuel and protection from prying eyes and noses).


Thanks for the advice. And no, it's not really about "sensitive" things, just a notion that having a system for purification and identification (you can tell what something is by it's boiling point) makes you more able to make or purify whatever liquids you need. Could be fuel (dangerous if you don't know what you're doing), water purification, alcohol purification--you can separate volatile from non-volatile. 

It's more of a thing that you'd want if problems were long-term. And because I'd like it and it'd give me something to play with.

----------


## Cowlesy

Gunny --- I think ABC News was reading your thread!

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/sto...5045549&page=1




> Experts say that extreme changes in climate, combined with dwindling resources, famine, war and disease have the potential to create a *post-apocalyptic world* in less than a hundred years.

----------


## Cowlesy

//

----------


## sfws09

something i was thinking about lastnite...

i have a glock 23. i am wanting to get a conversion kit so i can shoot .22s instead of the .40s all the time. $$$. i think it would be a good idea to get a conversion kit for every cal below my 40 in prep for the paw. that way, any pistol ammo i 'find', i can use! AND with a gun i am familure with!

thoughts?

----------


## Bprimbs

Would those conversions kits really work? 

It seems like it could be more trouble than it is worth.

----------


## Dr.3D

> something i was thinking about lastnite...
> 
> i have a glock 23. i am wanting to get a conversion kit so i can shoot .22s instead of the .40s all the time. $$$. i think it would be a good idea to get a conversion kit for every cal below my 40 in prep for the paw. that way, any pistol ammo i 'find', i can use! AND with a gun i am familure with!
> 
> thoughts?


I just got an Advantage Arms 22 lr conversion kit for my Glock 37.  It works very well and allows me to practice with the same sights and grip I usually use.  I like it very much.  You will just want to follow up your practice with say 50 rounds of your usual ammunition so you again get used to the kick.

----------


## Cowlesy

Nothing as fun as a Glock --- but my Badlands 4500 internal-frame pack just came in on the highly unlikely chance it's time to scoot out of NYC in a big hurry 

it's also in Advantage MAX1 camo so I can take it out west when I go elk hunting!

----------


## silus

You're going to need a network of likeminded people you can rely upon.  Survival without the ability to influence is is just a wasted existence.  Next up, brush up on your movies...T2, V, V: The Final Battle,  Red Dawn...throw in John Adams and other historic American films.  If anything to adopt a mindset of resistance and inspiration.

This must sound odd.

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## New York For Paul

Better have plenty of gas masks and other bio hazard gear.

If the infrastructure crumbles, I wouldn't want to be near any medical labs.

*CDC seals bioterror bugs  with duct tape*

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...w&pageId=67832

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has revealed a unique, high-tech use of its own  sealing off potentially fatal bioterror bacteria.

At its $214 million Emerging Infectious Diseases Laboratory in Atlanta, Ga., CDC scientists have been duct taping a lab door in an attempt to contain the airborne Q fever, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported.

The silver adhesive was taped around a lab containment door one year ago following a *ventilation malfunction in which potentially contaminated air streamed backward through a duct and into a "clean" hallway*. Nine workers were blood tested in May 2007 for exposure to Q fever bacteria following the leak.

Ebright told the AJC that the CDC's use of duct tape to contain bioterror bacteria "*raises very serious concerns about management*. And those concerns are particularly important when one bears in mind this facility will ultimately be handling a full range of lethal pathogens  up to and including smallpox."

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## pcosmar

^^ I live far from such.
but it should be a concern to anyone in the vicinity of these facilities.

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## silus

Get some good bug spray too.

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## Primbs

A new book about surviving disasters is out.  The book examines people's psychology and how they react during stress and disaster. 

The Unthinkable:Who Survives When Disaster Strikes and Why

It has some good stories about 9/11 as well.

http://www.amazon.com/Unthinkable-Su...4975584&sr=8-1

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## GunnyFreedom

> *Weapons*
> 
> Weapons will be very important.  Do not underestimate the utility of the .22 rifle!  you can get 1000 rounds of .22 LR for $20 and they don't make a whole lot of noise (which draws a lot of attention!)  The .22 is perfect for hunting small game, and it is quite frankly stupid to shoot a rabbit or a squirrel with a high powered rifle.  You should have a .22 and around 5000 rounds of .22 LR and if you are not squeamish about cleaning rabbits or snake, then you will never starve.  A decent pistol 9mm or better to help you fight your way back to your main battle rifle, and then a rifle in 5.56, .308 or .30-06


To begin with, your choice of weapons for the PAW need to be common calibers.  It is very true that the 6.8mm AR is a more effective weapon than the 5.56mm AR; but when TSHTF, it will be 1000 times easier to find rounds to feed your 5.56mm than it will be to find rounds to feed your 6.8mm.

Not to mention, rounds will be as good as currency for trade and barter.  Indeed, you can be sitting on 10,000 rounds of 6.8mm, but when it comes to getting yourself into a community of like-minded survivalists and bartering for...who knows, maybe gasoline?  Chances are it will be a lot easier to unload 5.56mm than it will be to unload 6.8mm.

Not to mention spare parts.  If you have an equipment failure on your bolt carrier or your extractor for your AR, it will be a LOT easier to get spare parts for a 5.56 AR than it will be to get parts for a 6.8 AR.

Bottom line is, there are far more reasons to lean towards common calibers for a PAW weapon than just ammo stores.  Sure, maybe you have literally thousands upon thousands of rounds, and the ability to reload.  But if you have to bug out on zero notice, the most you will be able to carry in a best-case scenario will be around 1000 rounds.  Not to mention rifle parts.  Choosing a caliber that you are more likely to find as a 'battlefield pickup,' *even if that round is not as good ballistically* is a good idea for the PAW.

First and foremost you want a survival tool.  The best thing for survival is the venerable .22LR.  The .22 rifle is really not so much a self defense weapon or a fighting weapon, but you will find in short order that you will spen a LOT more time surviving and hunting for food than you will in defense or fighting.  A Ruger 10/22 with 10 or 20 round magazines and a scope dialed in to 25 to 36 yards is a primary choice here.  My own .22 is a 10 round tube fed Marlin, which happens to be a lot quieter than the 10/22 but I sacrifice reloading speed as it is not magazine fed.  I am OK with that, however, as my primary purpose with the .22 is hunting game such as rabbit, or varminting (keeping feral dogs away from the chicken coop) etc, and 10 rounds should be more than sufficient for those purposes.

The good thing about the .22 is that it does not advertise your existence and location the way a high powered rifle does.  If TSHTF, and you go hunting with a high power rifle, you may well have to deal either with people who figure you have food and want some of it, or with authorities who do not like the idea of people having weapons in their Area of Operations, or with gang officers who prefer to keep a monopoly on deadly force.  With a .22, you make a LOT less noise, and far far fewer people will know that you are there and that you have a firearm.

Not to mention that .22LR ammo is stupidly inexpensive.  Prices HAVE gone up recently, but you can still get 700 rounds at Wal Mart for about $20, or for more power and precision, Cabelas has some good deals here:

http://www.cabelas.com/spodw-1/0024232.shtml

for a little bit more money, but these specialty rounds can serve some important uses.  For instance, they have 500 rounds for $47 of 60 grain subsonic that make EXTREMELY little noise compared to other .22 rounds, but yet are accurate and lethal to humans as far out as 200 yards.

Next, when choosing a main battle rifle, look primarily for 5.56x45mm (.223), 7.62x51mm (.308), and 7.62x63mm (.30-06).  Secondary choices could be the 7.62x39mm (AK-47 and SKS) and the 5.45x39mm (AK-74).  Those are listed as "secondary" because while the 7.62x39mm are pretty common, they are less accurate, and while the 5.45x39mm is pretty accurate, they are less common.

Now, if you can't hit your target, then a rifle is little more than a fancy club.  Your best practice is with the .22, as the practice itself is a LOT less expensive ammo-wise, and everything you learn on the .22 translates directly to your high powered rifle.  Not to mention, learning to shoot on a .22 will help to prevent you from getting into the habit of bucking and flinching.

So practice, practice, practice, and attend Appleseeds in your area.  http://www.appleseedinfo.org/

In the way of pistols, there are several common rounds for the pistol.  Your primary choices would be 9mm, .45acp, and .357 Magnum.  Your secondary choices would be .40 cal (becoming more popular with law enforcement, so rounds are becoming more available for the .40 every day), and .38acp.

Saving the best for last, your primary defensive weapon in a PAW situation should be a 12 gauge shotgun, either in semiautomatic or pump action.  There is a veritable PLETHORA of shells available for a 12 gauge, and reloading your shells is easier than anything else.  You can even pour your own lead shot.

A shotgun is the ultimate "point and click" defensive weapon, and a 12 gauge just does an unimaginable amount of damage.  If you are in a mostly urban area, you want to purchase a shotgun with the shortest legal barrel available for use inside, around corners etc.  DO NOT SAW YOUR OWN BARREL! I say that not only for the legal issues -- the whole mess at Ruby Ridge started with a shotgun sawed 1mm too short -- but also for usefulness.  The interior barrel of a shotgun is not perfectly cylindrical like a rifle is, it expands in the middle and contracts at the breech and the muzzle, and if you cut in the middle of that expansion area, you will have a scattergun rather than a shotgun.  In that case, hitting your target may require more luck than anything else.

If you live in a rural area, a longer barrel with a choke is a good idea.  30 and 40 and even 50 yard shots may be necessary, and a proper barrel and choke will make a reliable 15"-20" pattern at 50 yards.  Simply devastating.  A 12 gauge shotgun shell filled with 21 42grain flechettes can literally punch a 10" diameter hole through a person 30 yards away, and then scatter those flechettes all over inside of them from ankles to nose.  I don't care if they are on crack, meth, morphine, whatever.  A 12 gauge with the proper shot does not give second chances the way a rifle sometimes can.

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## Kalifornia

> To begin with, your choice of weapons for the PAW need to be common calibers.  It is very true that the 6.8mm AR is a more effective weapon than the 5.56mm AR; but when TSHTF, it will be 1000 times easier to find rounds to feed your 5.56mm than it will be to find rounds to feed your 6.8mm.
> 
> Not to mention, rounds will be as good as currency for trade and barter.  Indeed, you can be sitting on 10,000 rounds of 6.8mm, but when it comes to getting yourself into a community of like-minded survivalists and bartering for...who knows, maybe gasoline?  Chances are it will be a lot easier to unload 5.56mm than it will be to unload 6.8mm.
> 
> Not to mention spare parts.  If you have an equipment failure on your bolt carrier or your extractor for your AR, it will be a LOT easier to get spare parts for a 5.56 AR than it will be to get parts for a 6.8 AR.
> 
> Bottom line is, there are far more reasons to lean towards common calibers for a PAW weapon than just ammo stores.  Sure, maybe you have literally thousands upon thousands of rounds, and the ability to reload.  But if you have to bug out on zero notice, the most you will be able to carry in a best-case scenario will be around 1000 rounds.  Not to mention rifle parts.  Choosing a caliber that you are more likely to find as a 'battlefield pickup,' *even if that round is not as good ballistically* is a good idea for the PAW.
> 
> First and foremost you want a survival tool.  The best thing for survival is the venerable .22LR.  The .22 rifle is really not so much a self defense weapon or a fighting weapon, but you will find in short order that you will spen a LOT more time surviving and hunting for food than you will in defense or fighting.  A Ruger 10/22 with 10 or 20 round magazines and a scope dialed in to 25 to 36 yards is a primary choice here.  My own .22 is a 10 round tube fed Marlin, which happens to be a lot quieter than the 10/22 but I sacrifice reloading speed as it is not magazine fed.  I am OK with that, however, as my primary purpose with the .22 is hunting game such as rabbit, or varminting (keeping feral dogs away from the chicken coop) etc, and 10 rounds should be more than sufficient for those purposes.
> ...


Dont forget that with the right kind of slug, even a smooth bore shotgun with no choke can be lethal as hell out to 100 yards.

Hell, I'm beginning to think that a Mossy 590 with good sights, 8 shots of  2 3/4" buck in the tube, and 5 slugs in the saddle is a hell of an main general defense weapon, so long as you have a sidearm for extra capacity, and a rifle nearby for long range defense.  

Then there are all those specialty rounds.  bird shot for small game, flares, hell, someone is actually making AP grenades in 12 guages (not that you can buy those at big 5).  

Its hard to imagine a more versatile weapon for anything out to a football field in distance.

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## FireofLiberty

> Don't forget your iPod and solar charger. God forbid you go a night without watching "Lazy Scranton".


You can charge an iPod with two cups of Gatorade (or Powerade) and a white onion, by the way.

Poke a hole in the right and left side of the onion (a screwdriver works best for this).

Place the onion in the 2 cups of Gatorade/Powerade and make sure the holes are submerged.

Leave the onion in for 30 minutes.  You want the onion to absurd at least half of the Gatorade/Powerade.  

Dry off the surface of the onion using something like a towel, wash cloth or a paper towel.

Connect the iPod to the onion via the *USB charger* (not the outlet charger) by pushing the USB charger firmly into the onion.

It should begin charging your iPod in a few seconds.

Note that this will only provide about 15 - 20 mins worth of charge.

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## FireofLiberty

Everyone needs at least one rifle, a shotgun and a handgun.

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## Cowlesy

Benelli M4 with a tube extender

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## rancher89

Welcome back gunny

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## Primbs

> You can charge an iPod with two cups of Gatorade (or Powerade) and a white onion, by the way.
> 
> Poke a hole in the right and left side of the onion (a screwdriver works best for this).
> 
> Place the onion in the 2 cups of Gatorade/Powerade and make sure the holes are submerged.
> 
> Leave the onion in for 30 minutes.  You want the onion to absurd at least half of the Gatorade/Powerade.  
> 
> Dry off the surface of the onion using something like a towel, wash cloth or a paper towel.
> ...


I saw this in a magazine.

Portable solar power charger.

http://www.solio.com/charger/

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## muzzled dogg

are sawed off shotguns legal in the post-apocalyptic world?

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## GunnyFreedom

> are sawed off shotguns legal in the post-apocalyptic world?


It's not about whether it's legal or not, it's about the fact that the barrel design of a shotgun means that if you cut it off int he wrong place it becomes nearly useless.  The only way to do it right is to get a set of really really long barrel calipers and measure where the diameter of the barrel starts restricting again.

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## muzzled dogg

o rly

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## GunnyFreedom

shotgun barrels are not perfectly cylindrical. The interior of the barrel expands in the middle. If you cut the barrel where it's expanding or at the widest part, you wind up with a scattergun. Imagine a 3 foot pattern some 5-10 foot from the barrel. At 20 foot, whether you actually hit anything or not becomes a matter of pure chance.

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## muzzled dogg

> shotgun barrels are not perfectly cylindrical. The interior of the barrel expands in the middle. If you cut the barrel where it's expanding or at the widest part, you wind up with a scattergun. Imagine a 3 foot pattern some 5-10 foot from the barrel. At 20 foot, whether you actually hit anything or not becomes a matter of pure chance.


ye i'm fine with the 5-10 ft $#@!

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## Primbs

How a PAW situation could happen quickly.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...w&pageId=70472

Here is the two hundred page government report on an EMP situation.

http://www.empcommission.org/docs/A2...ission-7MB.pdf

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## Dr.3D

> How a PAW situation could happen quickly.
> 
> http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...w&pageId=70472
> 
> Here is the two hundred page government report on an EMP situation.
> 
> http://www.empcommission.org/docs/A2...ission-7MB.pdf


A lot of people don't realize how an EMP could also knock out most forms of travel.   Most automobiles and trucks use a computer to make the engine work properly.  An EMP would knock out those computers and traffic would come to a standstill.

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## GunnyFreedom

> A lot of people don't realize how an EMP could also knock out most forms of travel.   Most automobiles and trucks use a computer to make the engine work properly.  An EMP would knock out those computers and traffic would come to a standstill.


So if you are building a bug-out vehicle, use a pre 1980 motor.  Or, at least, a motor without a computer or sensitive electronics like fuel maps etc.  *OR* if you want to be adventurous, contain all your vehicle's electronics in grounded faraday cages to EMP harden them.  ;-)

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## Dr.3D

> So if you are building a bug-out vehicle, use a pre 1980 motor.  Or, at least, a motor without a computer or sensitive electronics like fuel maps etc.  *OR* if you want to be adventurous, contain all your vehicle's electronics in grounded faraday cages to EMP harden them.  ;-)


I have a 1974 M151-A2  (MUTT) I'm pretty sure you know what that is.  It doesn't have any computer and all of the ignition system is shielded. 

But yes, put any critical electronics (those with chips or transistors) in a metal box that is grounded.   It can have small holes in the metal to allow for cooling but those holes should not be much larger than the ones in the door of a microwave oven.  Also, don't allow any exposed wiring to conduct the pulse into the cage (box).  For instance shield and ground the ignition wires. 

The best way is to not have sensitive components like transistors and chips in the system.

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## Kalifornia

I always wanted a 60s vintage pickup.  Now I have an excuse.

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## tangent4ronpaul

> How a PAW situation could happen quickly.
> 
> http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...w&pageId=70472
> 
> Here is the two hundred page government report on an EMP situation.
> 
> http://www.empcommission.org/docs/A2...ission-7MB.pdf


You'll like this report if you liked the quoted ones.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...996/apjemp.htm

-n

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## rancher89

I have an old pick up for sale, pm me

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## Deborah K

Love this thread!

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## Primbs

It looks like people in Georgia and Ukraine could use this information.

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## Anti Federalist

> That is probably the one 'deep country down home remedy' with the most verifiable anecdotal evidence supporting it that I have ever encountered, actually.  Some folks in the rural south will use bag balm for EVERY-THING you can imagine, and swear by it.  Most of the anecdotal evidence I have seen backs up their faith in the stuff.  Considering what it IS, I think the _name_ is a little oo-key, but that won't stop me from using good stuff.  Good call.


Bag Balm comes out of Vermont, it was originally designed to soothe cows udders and nipples.

It's one the best, if not *the* best, all 'round salve and ointment that you can buy.

http://www.bagbalm.com/

Excellent thread Gunny, glad someone resurrected it.

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## Anti Federalist

> So if you are building a bug-out vehicle, use a pre 1980 motor.  Or, at least, a motor without a computer or sensitive electronics like fuel maps etc.  *OR* if you want to be adventurous, contain all your vehicle's electronics in grounded faraday cages to EMP harden them.  ;-)


Done it. 1980 carbed, breaker points engine in a 4x4 F-150 1993 frame. Other than an EMP maybe frying some minor relays for lights, wipers and stuff, which I could hotwire if needed, there's not a computer chip left in the truck.

Seriously, in reading through this thread, and I'm not trying to blow my own horn, but just about every item has been covered at the family AF's "funny farm".

Food, deep water well - 585 feet bedrock shielded with back up manual pump, fuel, arms and ammo, land, transportation, medical (was the last item, sorely missing for too long, but used my position to order quite a bit of offshore medical supplies) back up power, natural stream, firewood, bug out locations set...yeah I'm in pretty good shape, hopefully.

And in all honesty, it wasn't that expensive or hard to do.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Done it. 1980 carbed, breaker points engine in a 4x4 F-150 1993 frame. Other than an EMP maybe frying some minor relays for lights, wipers and stuff, which I could hotwire if needed, there's not a computer chip left in the truck.
> 
> Seriously, in reading through this thread, and I'm not trying to blow my own horn, but just about every item has been covered at the family AF's "funny farm".
> 
> Food, deep water well - 585 feet bedrock shielded with back up manual pump, fuel, arms and ammo, land, transportation, medical (was the last item, sorely missing for too long, but used my position to order quite a bit of offshore medical supplies) back up power, natural stream, firewood, bug out locations set...yeah I'm in pretty good shape, hopefully.
> 
> And in all honesty, it wasn't that expensive or hard to do.


You do indeed sound well prepared.  bear in mind, of course, that means that all KINDS of 'friends' who would never have given you the time of day, will crawl out from other the woodwork if TSHTF.  If you are not careful, they will bleed you dry supplies-wise.  I'm not saying do't be compassionate -- I'm compassionate myself -- I'm just saying be smart.

Prepare ahead for at least some charity, and keep your real supplies well hidden from your charity supplies; so there are no uncomfortable questions on why someone with a ton of food would only give out an ounce.

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## Anti Federalist

> *You do indeed sound well prepared.  bear in mind, of course, that means that all KINDS of 'friends' who would never have given you the time of day, will crawl out from other the woodwork if TSHTF.  If you are not careful, they will bleed you dry supplies-wise.  I'm not saying do't be compassionate -- I'm compassionate myself -- I'm just saying be smart.*
> 
> Prepare ahead for at least some charity, and keep your real supplies well hidden from your charity supplies; so there are no uncomfortable questions on why someone with a ton of food would only give out an ounce.


You couldn't be more right about that. I don't have many "friends" and the few I do have are just as prepared, so I can only hope that doesn't become too much of a problem. Also, in gaging the people around my small town, I'd like to think a "Jericho" mindset would develop fairly quickly.

One can only hope for the best about things like that since it's nothing more than speculation, when the SHTF there's no telling how feral or bat$#@! people may get.

I also worry about the huge mass of population in the megalopolises starting just 100 miles to the south of me. If the balloon goes up, I can only hope that it is in the middle of winter when conditions are inhospitable, even under the best of circumstances.

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## Primbs

Hopefully people in New Orleans read up on what they need. Hurricane Gustav looks big.

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## agentl074

> No one's going to attack America.
> 
> Except...
> 
> It's own government.
> 
> I'd be having a town meeting, and blowing up bridges.
> 
> $#@! running for the hills.



Exactly: check out my Civil Defense post

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## Kotin

seems worth bumping

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## xd9fan

big time

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## rwbris18

> are sawed off shotguns legal in the post-apocalyptic world?


Of course sawed off shotguns are legal... as long as they are longer than 18".

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## Osprey

here, here on the berkey water filters.  They're just great.  I'd go for the Big Berkey if I wasn't mobile and the Berkey light if I was.

----------


## Nightwind

Hay you guys what about this site

www.apocalypticsurvivor.com

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## s35wf

> here, here on the berkey water filters.  They're just great.  I'd go for the Big Berkey if I wasn't mobile and the Berkey light if I was.


I opted for the stainless steel travel berkey.  big enough to use daily at home, small enough to travel with if need be.

----------

