# News & Current Events > World News & Affairs >  Catalonia

## Swordsmyth

> *CATALAN REGIONAL LEADER SAYS ALREADY FEELS LIKE THE PRESIDENT OF A FREE COUNTRY - BILD*







Only took Catalans 'days' to 'see the light'... now Euro-skeptics







*BREAKING: SPANISH GUARDIA CIVIL WANTS TO DISSOLVE CATALAN POLICE FORCES (MOSSOS)

Sunday confrontation 



THERE ARE REPORTS THAT INDICATE THAT AN ARMED UPRISING OF CATALONIAN POLICE FORCES IS IMMINENT

CATALAN PRESIDENT COULD ASK POLICE FORCES TO DEFEND THE PEOPLE OF CATALONIA

SPANISH STOCKS ARE PLUNGING RIGHT NOW!*

►Even those, who do not support Catalonian independence, protest against Spanish violent crackdown:

The Spain Report- @<u><a  href="http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=40901"  target="_blank">The</a></u>spainreport · 20 hod.
*Sign reads: "I don't want independence but I cannot stay at home while they beat my people".*
Via @naciodigital





*Catalan President says open to dialogue - in favour of peace -  spoke a while in Spanish rather than Catalan to ´people of Spain'  #Catalonia*

The Spain Report- @<u><a  href="http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=40901"  target="_blank">The</a></u>spainreport 5 min.
*El Diario reports Rajoy rejects Podemos offer of dialogue with Catalan government and separatist parties.*

*The Catalan President Carles Puigdemont has attacked King Felipe VI for "deliberately ignoring millions of Catalans".*

*In a TV address, Mr Puigdemont accused the king of adopting the Spanish government's position.*

*"This moment calls for mediation," the region's president said.  He has indicated that Catalonia could declare independence next week.*





AFP news agency  @AFP
*BREAKING Catalan independence declaration could be on Monday: regional govt source*

*Catalonia to declare unilateral independence on Monday 9th October. under section 4 of the law of referendums.*

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## Swordsmyth

The Spanish government will suspend Catalonia's autonomy if  Catalan President Carles Puigdemont gives an ambiguous response to  Madrid's question about whether he has declared independence from Spain,  Spanish Interior Minister Juan Ignacio Zoido said Oct. 14, Reuters  reported.

More at: https://worldview.stratfor.com/situa...erior-minister

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## Pauls' Revere

> The Spanish government will suspend Catalonia's autonomy if  Catalan President Carles Puigdemont gives an ambiguous response to  Madrid's question about whether he has declared independence from Spain,  Spanish Interior Minister Juan Ignacio Zoido said Oct. 14, Reuters  reported.
> 
> More at: https://worldview.stratfor.com/situa...erior-minister




https://www.thelocal.es/20171015/cat...deadline-looms

_ Spain's government has given Carles Puigdemont until 10:00 am (0800 GMT) on Monday to clear up his ambiguous stance on secession after announcing last week he was ready to declare the region "an independent state" but called for more time for talks.

Anything other than a full climb-down is likely to be viewed by Madrid as a declaration of independence which would prompt the government of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy to begin taking direct control of the region._

I think that's 0200 EST 10/16/2017
or 2300 PST 10/15/2017

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## Swordsmyth

*With Just Hours Until Spain's Ultimatum Runs Out, Catalonia Proposes Its Own Central Bank*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-15/just-hours-until-spains-ultimatum-runs-out-catalonia-proposes-its-own-central-bank

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## Pauls' Revere

> *With Just Hours Until Spain's Ultimatum Runs Out, Catalonia Proposes Its Own Central Bank*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-15/just-hours-until-spains-ultimatum-runs-out-catalonia-proposes-its-own-central-bank


It would probably have to as other banks have promised to leave if they secede.

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## Swordsmyth

*Catalan Leader Defies Spain, Sends Evasive Reply To Rajoy Activating Second Ultimatum Deadline*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-16/catalan-leader-defies-spain-sends-evasive-reply-rajoy-activating-second-ultimatum-de


*Madrid moves towards direct rule over Catalonia*http://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-catalonia/madrid-moves-towards-direct-rule-over-catalonia-idUSKBN1CL0K9


*Spanish Prosecutors Seek To Jail Popular Catalan Police Chief*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-16/spanish-prosecutors-seek-jail-popular-catalan-police-chief

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## AZJoe

Imagine if Catalan were an Oblast or Republic of Russia, and Putin acted the way Spain and Rajoy have. Washington and Europe would be howling with indignation, demanding his head on a pike.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...h-Police/page4

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## Swordsmyth

*Catalan Independence Movement Furious After Spain Jails Two Leaders For Possible Sedition*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-16/catalan-independence-movement-furious-after-spain-jails-two-leaders-possible-seditio

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## Swordsmyth

*Spain Constitutional Court Declares Catalan Referendum Void*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-17/spain-constitutional-court-declares-catalan-referendum-void

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## Pauls' Revere

https://www.thelocal.es/20171017/pro...ey-separatists

_ Further protests against the detention of Cuixart and Sanchez were planned for Tuesday afternoon in front of central government offices in Barcelona, Girona, Tarragona and Lleida, with a candle-lit protest in Barcelona at 8:00 pm.

The pair nicknamed the "two Jordis" are the leaders of pro-independence citizens' groups Omnium Cultural and the Catalan National Assembly (ANC) respectively, both of which count tens of thousands of members and have emerged as influential players in the crisis.

They are accused of encouraging a major protest last month as Spanish police raided the Catalan administration's offices in the run-up to the referendum.

Police officers were trapped for hours and their vehicles vandalised as protesters ringed the building, with Cuixart and Sanchez standing atop a police car calling for "permanent mobilisation" against the Spanish state.

The crime of sedition can carry up to 15 years in prison._

I see this three ways, 1) either Carles Puigmont waited to long to declare independence and he should have been much clearer about it. or 2) This is part of the plan and these two that are jailed are falling on the sword so to speak for the cause. Even Jesus had a Judas to help him solidify the cause. 3) these two are splintering off and will become the violent arm of this and it starts to go the IRA/ETA route.

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## Pauls' Revere

> Imagine if Catalan were an Oblast or Republic of Russia, and Putin acted the way Spain and Rajoy have. Washington and Europe would be howling with indignation, demanding his head on a pike.
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...h-Police/page4


Right, reminds me of when Poland split off and the solidarity movement.

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## Swordsmyth

*Catalan Leader Vows To Declare Independence If Spain Triggers "Nuclear Option"*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-18/catalan-leader-vows-declare-independence-if-spain-suspends-home-rule

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## goldenequity

memorable quote..

"the Cantalopians have no idea what a
pain in the ass it is to run a Country.
they're better off the way it is."

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## AZJoe

> memorable quote..
> 
> "the Cantalopians have no idea what a
> pain in the ass it is to run a Country.
> they're better off the way it is."

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## Swordsmyth

*Catalan President Could Call Early Elections*Catalan President Carles Puigdemont is considering declaring independence for Catalonia and then immediately dissolving the government and calling for elections.

Should the Catalan government declare independence and then call for  elections it would create a chaotic situation in which the Catalan  caretaker government considers itself independent while the Spanish  government doesn't. Even if the Catalan government calls for snap  elections, the Spanish government could temporarily seize control of  Catalan institutions, though it would be harder to justify. 

More at: https://worldview.stratfor.com/situa...arly-elections

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## Pauls' Revere

> *Catalan Leader Vows To Declare Independence If Spain Triggers "Nuclear Option"*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-18/catalan-leader-vows-declare-independence-if-spain-suspends-home-rule


Question: Why does he or Catalonia need a nuclear option to declare independence? If you wan it say it and do it, pretty simple.

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## Swordsmyth

*Spain Unleashes Historic Power to End Catalan Independence Push*Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy will deploy the Spanish government’s  most wide-ranging constitutional powers for the first time in the  country’s history as he seeks to land a decisive blow on the Catalan  separatist movement.
Spanish  stocks and bonds dropped as Rajoy’s government said it will move  forward with the process of suspending the powers of the Catalan  administration after regional President Carles Puigdemont refused to  shelve his claim to independence.


Carles Puigdemont

Photographer: Angel Garcia/Bloomberg
Spain’s  government issued a statement on Thursday morning invoking Article 155  of the Constitution “to restore the legality” of the semi-autonomous  region.

More at: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...onomy-j8y73fog


Put up or shut up time in Catalonia, now we see if they fold like the Kurds.

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## Swordsmyth

*Catalan Separatists Urge Supporters To Pull Cash From Bank*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-19/bank-run-looms-catalan-separatists-urge-supporters-pull-cash

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## goldenequity

Clarification: The Spanish Senate will validate *next Friday(27th Oct)* the application of article 155. 
Carles Puigdemont has until that time to change his mind on the declaration of independence, 
if he does then the article 155 will not be applied and Catalonia keeps its autonomy.

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## Swordsmyth

Following the vote on October 1, King Felipe VI made a rare  appearance on national TV. He called on the Catalan government to return  to constitutional legality and made no apologies for the terror  campaign launched by the national police. Neither did he address his  Catalan subjects in their own language.
At that point Felipe  stopped being the king of all Spaniards. As relations between Madrid and  Barcelona continue to deteriorate, he would do well to consider making  the ultimate sacrifice to save his country from itself.
Keeping  Catalonia in Spain by taking Spain out of Catalonia is therefore  directly tied to making Felipe a regular citizen of the country like  everybody else. His abdication would lead to the proclamation of the  Third Spanish Republic, to new governments in Madrid and Barcelona, and  to a constitutional assembly that could result in the creation of a  multi-national federal state where Andalusians, Basques, Canarians,  Castilians, Catalans and others could reconcile with their past as they  look to reclaim and refashion the old notion of the many Spains, or _ Las Españas_.
Any other alternatives at this point would seem to lead nowhere but to saying goodbye to Spain.

More at: http://www.newsweek.com/king-felipe-...-crisis-689346

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## Swordsmyth

The dissolution of European states is the direct result of three things, the EU, NATO and the fall of the USSR.

With no credible enemies near or far the various regional communities had no larger worries than their relationship to their cousins and no benefits for putting up with them.

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## Pauls' Revere

> The dissolution of European states is the direct result of three things, the EU, NATO and the fall of the USSR.
> 
> With no credible enemies near or far the various regional communities had no larger worries than their relationship to their cousins and no benefits for putting up with them.


Generally speaking, I would agree with that. This I feel is somewhat becoming a global phenomenon on some sort of scale since the end of the cold war the world is not so bipolar. That may change however with the rise of China and a new cold war rises.

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## Pauls' Revere

> Following the vote on October 1, King Felipe VI made a rare  appearance on national TV. He called on the Catalan government to return  to constitutional legality and made no apologies for the terror  campaign launched by the national police. Neither did he address his  Catalan subjects in their own language.
> At that point Felipe  stopped being the king of all Spaniards. As relations between Madrid and  Barcelona continue to deteriorate, he would do well to consider making  the ultimate sacrifice to save his country from itself.
> Keeping  Catalonia in Spain by taking Spain out of Catalonia is therefore  directly tied to making Felipe a regular citizen of the country like  everybody else. His abdication would lead to the proclamation of the  Third Spanish Republic, to new governments in Madrid and Barcelona, and  to a constitutional assembly that could result in the creation of a  multi-national federal state where Andalusians, Basques, Canarians,  Castilians, Catalans and others could reconcile with their past as they  look to reclaim and refashion the old notion of the many Spains, or _ Las Españas_.
> Any other alternatives at this point would seem to lead nowhere but to saying goodbye to Spain.
> 
> More at: http://www.newsweek.com/king-felipe-...-crisis-689346



King Felipe is not going to abdicate the throne. Im sure the EU ministers are backing him and he will demonstrate the resolve of the EU so that if anyone else gets a wild secessionist hair up their butt they know what to expect. Catalonia will serve as a lesson in this regard. Sadly, I think Pudgimont is going to deliver another vauge bs speech and wants time to talk some more.

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## Swordsmyth

*Spanish Attorney General prepares to ARREST Catalonia's president*http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5003425/amp/Attorney-General-prepares-ARREST-Catalonia-s-president.html

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## Pauls' Revere

Spain invokes article 155:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/21/w...ano-rajoy.html

_BARCELONA — The escalating confrontation over Catalonia’s independence drive took its most serious turn on Saturday as Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy of Spain announced he would remove the leadership of the restive region and initiate a process of direct rule by the central government in Madrid.

It was the first time that Spain’s government had moved to strip the autonomy of one of its 17 regions, and the first time that a leader had invoked Article 155 of the Spanish Constitution — a broad tool intended to protect the “general interests” of the nation.

The unexpectedly forceful moves by Mr. Rajoy, made after an emergency cabinet meeting, thrust Spain into uncharted waters. The prime minister is trying to put down one of the gravest constitutional crises his country has faced since embracing democracy after the death of its dictator Gen. Francisco Franco in 1975._

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## Swordsmyth

Catalonia's  leaders said on Saturday they would not accept direct rule imposed on  the region by the Spanish government, as a political crisis that has  rattled the economy and raised fears of prolonged unrest showed no signs  of easing.Spanish  Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy announced earlier on Saturday he would  invoke special constitutional powers to fire the regional government and  force a new election to counter the region's move towards independence.
Catalan  President Carles Puigdemont, who made a symbolic declaration of  independence on Oct. 10 after a referendum to secede, called Rajoy's  moves the "worst attacks against the people of Catalonia" since Spain's  military dictatorship.
It  is the first time since Spain's return to democracy that the central  government has used its powers to seize control of a regional  administration.
Rajoy  said it was necessary to end a crisis that has fractured the country  and prompted Spain to reduce growth forecasts for the euro zone's  fourth-largest economy.
After  taking party in peaceful demonstration, Puigdemont expressed his  rejection of Madrid's move, but stopped short of saying he would make  good his threat to push ahead with the independence bid before direct  rule takes effect.
"I  ask the (Catalan) parliament to meet in a plenary session during which  we, the representatives of the citizens' sovereignty, will be able to  decide over this attempt to liquidate our government and our democracy,  and act in consequence," Puigdemont said in a televised address.
Rajoy,  who acted with backing from the main opposition party in Madrid and  King Felipe, needs the authorization of Spain's upper house of  parliament to impose direct rule.
"Our  objective is to restore the law and a normal cohabitation among  citizens, which has deteriorated a lot, continue with the economic  recovery, which is under threat today in Catalonia, and celebrate  elections in a situation of normality," he said.
The  Senate vote that would give Madrid full control of Catalonia's  finances, police and public media and curb the powers of the regional  parliament for up to six months is scheduled for next Friday.
That could give the independence movement room to maneuver.
The regional parliament's speaker, Carme Forcadell, said she would not accept Madrid's move and accused Rajoy of a "coup."
"Prime  Minister Rajoy wants the parliament of Catalonia to stop being a  democratic parliament, and we will not allow this to happen," Forcadell  said in a televised speech.
The assembly is expected to decide on Monday whether to hold a session to formally proclaim the republic of Catalonia.
Catalan  media have said Puigdemont could dissolve the regional parliament and  call elections by next Friday. Under Catalan law, those elections would  take place within two months.
That  would enable Puigdemont to go the polls earlier than envisaged by  Rajoy, who spoke of a six-month timetable, and to exploit the  anti-Madrid sentiment running high in the region.

More at: https://ca.news.yahoo.com/spanish-go...090625953.html

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## Champ

This entire mess seems to be making a good argument for maintaining arms to prevent tyrannical leaders from asserting dominance over large groups of people.  I don't know the degree to which Catalonians are armed, but judging from the words of the Spanish leaders, it doesn't sound like they fear much.  It sounds more like a slavemaster speaking to his subjects.

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## Pauls' Revere

So, Catalonia went ahead with a vote which Madrid declared unconstitutional. After this vote Madrid now says it will enforce article 155 and hold a special election (a vote). I'm wondering was the Catalonia vote national or regional? and is this Madrid vote National or regional? and who will monitor this vote sanctioned by Madrid?

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## Swordsmyth

*Catalan Separatists Plan Human Shield, "Civil Disobedience" To Block Spanish Takeover*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-23/catalan-separatists-plan-human-shield-civil-disobedience-block-spanish-takeover

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## Swordsmyth

Spanish government spokesman Inigo Mendez de Vigo said in an interview  that the Spanish government is ready to use force against separatists in  Catalonia, The Times reported Oct 24. Mendez also said the Catalan  police will have to restore the law and counter threats to public order.

More at: https://worldview.stratfor.com/situa...spokesman-says

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## Swordsmyth

*Catalan Separatist Leader: "Spain Leaves No Option But To Proclaim New Republic"*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-25/catalan-separatists-warn-moment-has-come-puigdemont-suddenly-cancels-parliament-appe

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## Swordsmyth

*Almost 1,400 Companies Have Left Catalonia Since October 2*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-26/almost-1400-companies-have-left-catalonia-october-2


*Catalan Government Said To Back Off Independence Push, Will Seek Elections*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-26/catalan-government-said-back-independence-push-will-call-elections-spanish-yields-sl


*Catalan Separatists Rebel Against Their Leader, Shout "Traitors" Outside Puigdemont's Office*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-26/catalan-separatists-rebel-against-their-leader-shout-traitors-outside-puigdemonts-of


*Catalan Parliament To Decide On Independence Tomorrow*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-26/dramatic-reversal-catalan-leader-rejects-elections-sets-stage-clash-madrid

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## nobody's_hero

Tomorrow. Tomorrow. There's always, Tomorrow. It's only, a day a-way.

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## osan

> I think I'll post this in the new Catalonia thread  (can't think of a better place.)
> 
> *Sith Media:* "I Don't See The Purpose Of A U.S. Citizen Having These Weapons!"



But... but...





and...

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## osan

Spanish hooligans thirsty for blood...

Um... it's SPAIN, for Christ's sake.  If this outburst confuses you, it is then imperative you stick your ass into a library and your nose into a book on Spanish history.

The opening sentence, above, is the very definition of "redundant".

That aside, can you imagine how Brussels must have blown its anal glands when this became even a remote possibility?

My entire family is in Europe, and still I cannot but get a kick out of watching that most stupid of continents implode.

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## Origanalist

Daniel Lacalle: A Spanish Libertarian on Catalonia

10/05/2017Daniel LacalleJeff Deist
Daniel Lacalle, a Spanish economist and libertarian who runs Mises Hispano, joins Jeff Deist for an in-depth discussion of the facts behind the Catalan independence vote. Daniel makes the case against secession, based on economics, history, constitutionalism, anti-socialism, and his strong view that independence would result in less freedom for Catalans. Jeff disagrees, arguing for self-determination as a fundamental libertarian political principle that contemplates freedom to choose even bad political arrangements. Don't miss this show if you want to understand what is happening in Catalonia beyond the headlines.

Video and audio file at link..https://mises.org/library/daniel-lac...rian-catalonia

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## Swordsmyth

Catalonia’s  regional parliament passed a motion Friday to establish an independent  Catalan Republic, voting to secede from Spain after an acrimonious  debate that saw opposition lawmakers walk out in protest before the  vote.
The  vote in Barcelona came after Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy  delivered an impassioned speech in Madrid, urging the country’s Senate  to grant his government special constitutional measures that would allow  it to take control of Catalonia’s autonomous powers and halt the  region’s independence bid.

The vote was approved with 70 in favor of independence, 10 against and two blank ballots in Catalonia’s 135-member parliament.

More at: https://www.yahoo.com/news/catalan-r...163818236.html

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## Swordsmyth

*Spain PM Fires Catalan Government, Calls Snap Elections In Retaliation For Independence Vote*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-27/catalan-chaos-continues-secessionists-prepare-independence-motion


*Catalan Leaders Face 30 Years In Jail As Spain Brings "Rebellion" Charges*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-27/catalan-leaders-face-30-years-jail-spain-brings-rebellion-charges

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## otherone

> Daniel Lacalle, a Spanish economist and libertarian who runs Mises Hispano, joins Jeff Deist for an in-depth discussion of the facts behind the Catalan independence vote. _Daniel makes the case against secession, based on economics, history, constitutionalism, anti-socialism, and his strong view that independence would result in less freedom for Catalans._ Jeff disagrees, _arguing for self-determination as a fundamental libertarian political principle that contemplates freedom to choose even bad political arrangements._


Where have I seen this before?

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## Origanalist

> Where have I seen this before?


That particular conversation or the argument in general?

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## otherone

> That particular conversation or the argument in general?


the argument.  Ah. Found it.

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## Origanalist

> the argument.  Ah. Found it.


That's a whole bunch of arguing.

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## Pauls' Revere

So, whats next for Spain?

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## AZJoe



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## nobody's_hero

I hear that one of the stated reasons for secession is that Catalonians are tired of seeing their wealth redistributed throughout the rest of Spain, and yet the prevailing sentiment in Spain is that this is a leftist separatist movement. But, wouldn't the Spaniards be the leftists if they're taking Catalan wealth and spreading it to other regions?

I just find it hard to believe that a bunch of communists created the wealthiest region in Spain, lol.

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## Origanalist



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## Origanalist

EU TURMOIL: Finland preparing to go against Spain and RECOGNISE Catalonia’s independence

FINLAND could be the first country to officially recognise Catalonia as a republic state, in a move that would put the Scandinavian country in direct opposition to the European Union (EU).

The country’s MP for Lapland Mikko Karna has said that he intends to submit a motion to the Finnish parliament recognising the new fledgling country.

Mr Karna, who is part of the ruling Centre Party, led by Prime Minister Juha Sipila, also sent his congratulations to Catalonia after the regional parliament voted earlier today on breaking away from the rest of Spain.

Should Finland officially recognise the new state of Catalonia this will be yet another body blow to the the EU which has firmly backed the continuation of a unified Spain under the control of Madrid.

European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker warned today that “cracks” were appearing in the bloc due to the seismic events in Catalonia that were causing ruptures through the bloc.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...nd-Mikko-Karna

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## Swordsmyth

*Catalan Leader Urges "Peaceful" Rebellion As Spain Takes Over Government*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-28/catalan-leader-urges-peaceful-rebellion-spain-takes-over-government

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## Swordsmyth

*Catalan police: Remain neutral*The Catalan Police Prefecture circulated a letter internally asking the Mossos to remain neutral as events unfold.
"We  must remember that in each and every one of our interventions, we are  acting as representatives of the institution we serve and not as  individuals. Consequently, the principle of neutrality must always be  upheld," said the letter, whose authenticity was confirmed to CNN by the  Mossos. 

More at: http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/28/europe...ked/index.html

*Security for Catalan ministers being scaled down* Carles Puidgemont and several other former members of the Catalan  government have had their security scaled down. Some Catalan ministers  will have their security details completely removed, while Puidgemont,  former leader of the government, will have a smaller number of security  guards now responsible for his safety. 
 The security is provided by the MOSSOS, the regional police force of Catalonia.

More at: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/1...145635868.html

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## Suzanimal

> Puigdemont, Catalan ministers turn up in Brussels as Madrid sues them for rebellion
> 
> Former Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont has appeared in Brussels alongside other members of his cabinet as the Spanish Attorney General Jose Manuel Maza filed a lawsuit against the secessionist leaders over their push for independence.
> 
> Puigdemont did not go to the Catalonian regional Government Palace on Monday, even though he earlier vowed to “continue working to build a free country” in defiance of Madrid’s decision to sack his government and suspend Catalonia’s independence, which he said went against the will of the people.
> 
> ...
> 
> Puigdemont left Spain for Belgium at a time when the Spanish Prosecutor’s Office announced that it had filed a lawsuit against the sacked Catalan leader, other members of his cabinet and some regional MPs on rebellion, sedition and embezzlement charges with the Spanish National Court. In total, the charges have been filed against 12 people, La Vanguardia reports.
> ...


https://www.rt.com/news/408228-puigd...adrid-lawsuit/

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## Swordsmyth

Some of the most prominent ousted Catalan leaders,  including Puigdemont and Vice President Oriol Junqueras, had said they  would not accept their dismissal.  
But their  respective parties, PdeCat and Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya, said  on Monday they would take part in the election called by Rajoy, a tacit  acceptance of direct rule from Madrid. The regional parliament canceled a  meeting for Tuesday, another signal lawmakers accepted they had been  dismissed. 
A call for widespread civil disobedience from the main  civic groups behind the secessionist campaign failed to attract many  followers. Public sector workers such as teachers, firefighters and the  police mostly started worked as normal on Monday and there was no sign  of widespread absenteeism. 

More at: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-sp...KBN1CZ0IP?il=0

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## nobody's_hero

Kind of sounds like it fizzled out. In any case, it sounds like Catalonia got a good deal. Catalonia remains part of Spain in exchange for both sides getting to vote over and over until they get the results they want. That's how you do it in a true democracy, you just keep voting until you win, and then you vote some more because the other side wants to win also. If you are Spain, it also helps to have police with batons enter polling places to ensure no one makes any errors when they vote.

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## specsaregood

> A call for widespread civil disobedience from the main  civic groups behind the secessionist campaign failed to attract many  followers. Public sector workers such as teachers, firefighters and the  police mostly started worked as normal on Monday and there was no sign  of widespread absenteeism.


tax-ticks showed up for work, consider me unsurprised.

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## Swordsmyth

*Puigdemont Claims He’s Legitimate President Of Catalonia, Not Seeking Belgian Asylum*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-31/puigdemont-claims-he%E2%80%99s-legitimate-president-catalonia-not-seeking-belgian-asylum

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## r3volution 3.0

(1) *There is no such thing as a collective right of self-determination;  there are only individual property rights*. The state which ought to  govern Catalonia is the one which will govern it most liberally (i.e.  protect the real rights of individuals), regardless of the fictional  rights of the collective. 

(2) Catalan politics are much more  socialistic than Spanish politics. *An independent Catalonia will drift  leftward*. Individual rights will suffer. 




> Almost 1,400 Companies Have Left Catalonia Since October 2
> 
> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-1...onia-october-2
> 
> ...
> 
> With Just Hours Until Spain's Ultimatum Runs Out, Catalonia Proposes Its Own Central Bank
> 
> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-1...n-central-bank


Shocker...




> Following the vote on October 1, King Felipe  VI made a rare  appearance on national TV. He called on the Catalan  government to return  to constitutional legality and made no apologies  for the terror  campaign launched by the national police. Neither did he  address his  Catalan subjects in their own language.
> 
> At that point Felipe  stopped being the king of all Spaniards. As  relations between Madrid and  Barcelona continue to deteriorate, he  would do well to consider making  the ultimate sacrifice to save his  country from itself.
> 
> Keeping  Catalonia in Spain by taking Spain out of Catalonia is  therefore  directly tied to making Felipe a regular citizen of the  country like  everybody else. His abdication would lead to the  proclamation of the  Third Spanish Republic, to new governments in  Madrid and Barcelona, and  to a constitutional assembly that could  result in the creation of a  multi-national federal state where  Andalusians, Basques, Canarians,  Castilians, Catalans and others could  reconcile with their past as they  look to reclaim and refashion the old  notion of the many Spains, or _ Las Españas_.
> Any other alternatives at this point would seem to lead nowhere but to saying goodbye to Spain.
> 
> More at: http://www.newsweek.com/king-felipe-...-crisis-689346


Yes, the monarchy is above and declines to participate in your sectarian monkey wars.

The King ought to have spoken to them in Latin.




> Anna  Gabriel lives in a flatshare in a modest building tucked away in the  bohemian Barcelona neighbourhood of Grácia. The first thing you see as  you enter is a poster of Hugo Chávez, the late anti-capitalist leader of  Venezuela, and a table stacked with political leaflets. The living room  is small and spartan, devoid of books and personal objects.  The humble surroundings are a world away from the sumptuous medieval  palaces that house the Catalan president and his ministers. But there  are many, not least inside the Spanish government, who believe that the  rhythm and pace of Catalonia’s escalating conflict with Madrid are  dictated not by the official Catalan leadership but by Ms Gabriel and  her far-left separatist party.  The Popular Unity Candidacy (CUP) holds just 10 of 135 seats in  Catalan’s regional parliament, but without them President Carles  Puigdemont has no majority to continue his separatist course.  That has given the CUP and Ms Gabriel, the spokeswoman of the party’s  parliamentary group, sweeping power to shape the political process. More  often than not, they have used it to press for a hardline,  confrontational stance that could culminate in a unilateral declaration  of independence from Spain as early as next week.  Ms Gabriel argues that there is simply “no alternative” to such a  declaration, especially after the events surrounding Sunday’s  independence referendum. The vote, which had been declared illegal by  Spain’s constitutional court, was marred by violence after Spanish  police tried to interrupt the voting process and confiscate ballot  boxes. Madrid argues that its officers were defending the constitutional  order against a de facto insurrection, but Ms Gabriel insists the  intervention was a “savage and brutal attack against an entire people”.  “Many people who were not in favour of independence now say that they no  longer want to form part of a Spanish state that confronts political  problems like this. In political terms, people are saying: is this what  the Spanish state has to offer?”, she says.  Spain, Ms Gabriel argues, is not only a state with “fascist roots” but  also one that cannot acknowledge its own failure: “If you need so much  brute force to defend the unity of the state, isn’t it evident that this  unity does not exist?”
> 
>  Catalonia’s far-left Popular Unity  Candidacy does not have formal leaders. But it does have a face, and it  is that of Ms Gabriel, the spokeswoman for the party’s group in the  Catalan parliament. She hails from a leftwing family of miners in  Sallent, north of Barcelona, and trained both as a teacher and a lawyer.  Ms Gabriel belongs to the radical wing of what is already, by European  standards, a radical party. The CUP describes itself as a “clearly  socialist organisation with the objective of replacing the capitalist  socio-economic model with a new model that is centred on the human  collective and that respects the environment”. It opposes Catalan  membership of Nato and of the EU. Ms Gabriel is a veteran activist who  was part of an anti-fascist group in her youth before setting up a local  CUP chapter in her hometown. Her greatest fear, she once told a Spanish  interviewer, is that the “havoc created by the capitalist system will  be irreversible”.


https://www.ft.com/content/4f0f3e46-...5-27219df83c97




> Revolutionary Catalonia  (July 21, 1936 – 1939) was the part of Catalonia (an autonomous region  in northeast Spain) controlled by the anarchist, communist, and  socialist trade unions, parties, and militias during the Spanish Civil  War. These included the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT,  National Confederation of Labor) which was the dominant labor union at  the time and the closely associated Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI,  Iberian Anarchist Federation). The Unión General de Trabajadores  (General Worker's Union), the POUM and the Unified Socialist Party of  Catalonia (which included the Communist Party of Catalonia) were also  involved. Although the Generalitat of Catalonia was nominally in power, the trade unions were _de facto_ in command of most of the economy and military forces.
> 
>  Socialist rule of the region began with the Spanish Revolution of  1936, resulting in workers' control of businesses and factories,  collective farming in the countryside, and attacks against Spanish  nationalists and the Catholic clergy.  The growing influence of the Communist Party of Spain's  (PCE) Popular Front government and their desire to nationalize  revolutionary committees and militias brought it into conflict with the  CNT and POUM, resulting in the May Days and the eventual replacement of  the CNT by the PCE as the major political force in Catalonia until the  arrival of the fascists.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Catalonia

History does rhyme.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> (1) *There is no such thing as a collective right of self-determination;  there are only individual property rights*. The state which ought to  govern Catalonia is the one which will govern it most liberally (i.e.  protect the real rights of individuals), regardless of the fictional  rights of the collective.


Been there had that debate.




> (2) Catalan politics are much more  socialistic than Spanish politics. *An independent Catalonia will drift  leftward*. Individual rights will suffer.


If they remain they will pull all of Spain farther left, Spain is better off letting them go.





> The King ought to have spoken to them in Latin.


He would have done less damage to Spain AND Catalonia that way.





> https://www.ft.com/content/4f0f3e46-...5-27219df83c97
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Catalonia
> 
> History does rhyme.


And people usually don't change and they teach their children more of their vices than their virtues.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> If they remain they will pull all of Spain farther left, Spain is better off letting them go.


Perhaps, though the effect in Catalonia would be much greater than in Spain, by the numbers. 

In any event, the argument you're now making is not the argument which other pro-independence "libertarians" are making. 

They're arguing that independence will advance _Catalan_ liberty. 




> He would have done less damage to Spain AND Catalonia that way.


The damage has been done by democracy and the nationalism it breeds (or unleashes, I should say).

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Perhaps, though the effect in Catalonia would be much greater than in Spain, by the numbers. 
> 
> In any event, the argument you're now making is not the argument which other pro-independence "libertarians" are making. 
> 
> They're arguing that independence will advance _Catalan_ liberty.


In the narrow facet of "the consent of the governed" it will, but in any case they are a lost cause, Spain would be better off without them if they had the sense to let them go.





> The damage has been done by democracy and the nationalism it breeds (or unleashes, I should say).


The King's tone-deaf response only poured gasoline on the fire, even from your point of view.
Just like nearly every move Rajoy has made.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> In the narrow facet of "the consent of the governed" it will


"Consent of the governed" has nothing whatsoever to do with individual liberty. 

Being able to vote to steal your neighbor's property does not make you (and certainly not your neighbor) more free.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> "Consent of the governed" has nothing whatsoever to do with individual liberty. 
> 
> Being able to vote to steal your neighbor's property does not make you (and certainly not your neighbor) more free.


If I am ruled by someone without my consent I am not free.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> If I am ruled by someone without my consent I am not free.


Voting =/= Consent

Government is never by consent, by definition, whether democratic or not, whether in Barcelona or Madrid.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Voting =/= Consent
> 
> Government is never by consent, by definition, whether democratic or not, whether in Barcelona or Madrid.


Submission=consent, secession=no consent, there are varying levels of submission and consent, if Catalonia fails to resist Spain they will have returned to consent under duress.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> Submission=consent, secession=no consent, there are varying levels of submission and consent, if Catalonia fails to resist Spain they will have returned to consent under duress.


Ruritania is a member state of a federation. Ruritanian is democratic. The majority completely control the government and can do as they please, except that they want to execute all red heads, and there's a federal law prohibiting them from doing so. Then Ruritania secedes and is no longer subject to that federal law, and goes ahead and executes the redheads, all else remaining the same. 

Who is more free now than prior to secession? 

No one. 

You seem to think that the majority is more free, for getting to do something (namely, execute redheads) which they were previously prevented from doing, but that's not what freedom means in the liberal sense. It doesn't mean getting to do what you want; it means not having your property rights violated. The Ruritanian majority isn't more free in virtue of being able to kill redheads, and redheads certainly aren't more free in virtue of being killed! There's a net loss. In short, gaining a share in government (or enlarging an existing share) does not make a person more free. A change in who controls the state has no effect in itself on how free anyone is. Who controls the state matters only insofar as it effects state behavior (does it kill or not kill redheads, does it tax a lot or a little, etc).

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Ruritania is a member state of a federation. Ruritanian is democratic. The majority completely control the government and can do as they please, except that they want to execute all red heads, and there's a federal law prohibiting them from doing so. Then Ruritania secedes and is no longer subject to that federal law, and goes ahead and executes the redheads, all else remaining the same. 
> 
> Who is more free now than prior to secession? 
> 
> No one. 
> 
> You seem to think that the majority is more free, for getting to do something (namely, execute redheads) which they were previously prevented from doing, but that's not what freedom means in the liberal sense. It doesn't mean getting to do what you want; it means not having your property rights violated. The Ruritanian majority isn't more free in virtue of being able to kill redheads, and redheads certainly aren't more free in virtue of being killed! There's a net loss. In short, gaining a share in government (or enlarging an existing share) does not make a person more free. A change in who controls the state has no effect in itself on how free anyone is. Who controls the state matters only insofar as it effects state behavior (does it kill or not kill redheads, does it tax a lot or a little, etc).


I said:




> *In the narrow facet* of "the consent of the governed" it will


Obviously if the seceding state is less free in general that can overwhelm a single facet, but it is still wrong to rule over them by force.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> I said:
> 
> Obviously if the seceding state is less free in general that can overwhelm a single facet, but it is still wrong to rule over them by force.


I don't think you've explained how anyone, in_ any_ facet, is more free in post-independence Ruritania.

...unless, again, you're defining freedom as "getting to do what you want," even if what you want to do is murder people. 

 Are you really saying that the gain for Ruritanian liberty consists in the majority getting to satisfy their murderous desires?

And that that's a good thing?

----------


## Origanalist

> I don't think you've explained how anyone, in_ any_ facet, is more free in post-independence Ruritania.
> 
> ...unless, again, you're defining freedom as "getting to do what you want," even if what you want to do is murder people. 
> 
>  Are you really saying that the gain for Ruritanian liberty consists in the majority getting to satisfy their murderous desires?
> 
> And that that's a good thing?


 Ruritania doesn't exist, Catalonia does. And they want out. Until they get there and prove they are murderous madmen your point is rather moot.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> Ruritania doesn't exist, Catalonia does. And they want out. Until they get there and prove they are murderous madmen your point is rather moot.


...




> (2) Catalan politics are much more  socialistic than Spanish politics. *An independent Catalonia will drift  leftward*. Individual rights will suffer.


Whether they want to murder redheads, or raise taxes and increase regulation, the issue is the same.

The majority acquiring an increased ability to commit crimes does not make either it or its victims more free.

----------


## Origanalist

> ...
> 
> 
> 
> Whether they want to murder redheads, or raise taxes and increase regulation, the issue is the same.
> 
> The majority acquiring an increased ability to commit crimes does not make either it or its victims more free.


So I take it you're against California seceding?

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> So I take it you're against California seceding?


It would certainly mean less liberty for Californians.

You might argue that it would mean more liberty for other Americans (with DC drifting rightward to some extent), for a net gain nationally. 

I have no strong opinion on that.

My major point here is that secession is of no value in itself; it is valuable if and only if advances liberty. 

Whether it does has to be determined on a case by case basis.

----------


## Origanalist

> It would certainly mean less liberty for Californians.
> 
> You might argue that it would mean more liberty for other Americans (with DC drifting rightward to some extent), for a net gain nationally. 
> 
> I have no strong opinion on that.
> 
> My major point here is that secession is of no value in itself; it is valuable if and only if advances liberty. 
> 
> Whether it does has to be determined on a case by case basis.


So instead of determining for them what the result would be maybe you should allow them to do that for themselves. Freedom is messy, no one said otherwise. Protecting people from themselves is what brought us to the point we're at.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> So instead of determining for them what the  result would be maybe you should allow them to do that for themselves.  Freedom is messy, no one said otherwise. Protecting people from  themselves is what brought us to the point we're at.


If you're saying that one should not care about the liberty of others, I would say that caring about the liberty of others is the defining characteristic of liberalism. Everyone, socialist, NAZI, whatever, cares about _their own_ liberty.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> I don't think you've explained how anyone, in_ any_ facet, is more free in post-independence Ruritania.
> 
> ...unless, again, you're defining freedom as "getting to do what you want," even if what you want to do is murder people. 
> 
>  Are you really saying that the gain for Ruritanian liberty consists in the majority getting to satisfy their murderous desires?
> 
> And that that's a good thing?


They have the freedom to chose their own rulers, that is the narrow facet I am referring to.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> If you're saying that one should not care about the liberty of others, I would say that caring about the liberty of others is the defining characteristic of liberalism. Everyone, socialist, NAZI, whatever, cares about _their own_ liberty.


You should only care about the freedom of those who want to be free.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> They have the freedom to chose their own rulers, that is the narrow facet I am referring to.


Sure, but that has no bearing on freedom in the liberal sense of the term.




> You should only care about the freedom of those who want to be free.


If freedom means freedom from aggression (the liberal meaning of the term), everyone wants to be free, as I said above.

No Catalan was to be robbed. However, a great many Catalans would like their _neighbors_ to be robbed, proceeds to themselves.

----------


## Origanalist

> If you're saying that one should not care about the liberty of others, I would say that caring about the liberty of others is the  defining characteristic of liberalism. Everyone, socialist, NAZI, whatever, cares about _their own_ liberty. justification of tyrants throughout history


 Fixed that for you.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> Fixed that for you.


So, to be clear, you're saying that you don't care about the liberty others, and you think this is the proper attitude for a liberal?

----------


## Origanalist

> So, to be clear, you're saying that you don't care about the liberty of anyone other than yourself, and you think this is the proper attitude for a liberal?


To be clear, I don't think imposing my idea of liberty on people who don't want it is a liberal thing to do. It's a progressive action.

And your litmus test can be directly applied to California yet you seem to have no opinion on that. Why the discrepancy?

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Sure, but that has no bearing on freedom in the liberal sense of the term.


Since anarchy is impossible there WILL be a ruler, getting to choose that ruler is just as important as getting to choose anything else, if not more so.






> If freedom means freedom from aggression (the liberal meaning of the term), everyone wants to be free, as I said above.
> 
> No Catalan was to be robbed. However, a great many Catalans would like their _neighbors_ to be robbed, proceeds to themselves.


Many people do not want to be free, they are happy to be robbed and bullied to see their neighbors suffer the same, others want to remain children and have substitute parents run their lives for them while remaining in the intellectual high chair.

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## r3volution 3.0

> Since anarchy is impossible there WILL be a ruler, getting to choose that ruler is just as important as getting to choose anything else, if not more so.


Why?




> Many people do not want to be free, they are happy to be robbed and bullied  to see their neighbors suffer the same, others want to remain children  and have substitute parents run their lives for them while remaining in  the intellectual high chair.


No one wants to be aggressed against. If they did, the act in question wouldn't be aggression by definition.

E.G. If people want to pay a tax, it's not a tax, it's a gift.

...and abolishing that tax does not prevent them from doing continuing to make such gifts, if they please.

Stopping an aggression cannot ever violate anyone's rights.




> To be clear, I don't think imposing my idea of liberty on people who don't want it is a liberal thing to do. It's a progressive action.


X is robbing Y. 

Z could stop this. 

Z does stop it. 

Whose rights are violated by Z's actions?

X's right to rob Y? No, he had no such right.

X's right to be robbed...? No, that's nonsense.

So whose rights were violated? 

No one's.




> And your litmus test can be directly applied to California yet you seem to have no opinion on that. Why the discrepancy?


What discrepancy?

----------


## Origanalist

> Why?
> 
> 
> 
> No one wants to be aggressed against. If they did, the act in question wouldn't be aggression by definition.
> 
> E.G. If people want to pay a tax, it's not a tax, it's a gift.
> 
> ...and abolishing that tax does not prevent them from doing continuing to make such gifts, if they please.
> ...


Wrong analogy;

X wants to form their own country

Y says no way, y'all belong to us and we'll kill you if you go through with it. We're just doing this for your own good.




> What discrepancy?

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Why?


Because the ruler can affect everything else.






> No one wants to be aggressed against. If they did, the act in question wouldn't be aggression by definition.


People don't want each specific aggression but they do want the aggressor to aggress others, they submit to each unwanted aggression as it happens happy in the knowledge that the aggressor is out there doing their job aggressing against those they want aggressed.




> E.G. If people want to pay a tax, it's not a tax, it's a gift.
> 
> ...and abolishing that tax does not prevent them from doing continuing to make such gifts, if they please.
> 
> Stopping an aggression cannot ever violate anyone's rights.


Some people have little self control and will not do certain things unless force is used on them but they will pay people to force them to do those things.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> Because the ruler can affect everything else.


In other words...




> Who controls the state matters only  insofar as it affects state behavior (does it kill or not kill redheads,  does it tax a lot or a little, etc).


Yes?




> People don't want each specific aggression but they do want the aggressor to aggress others, they submit to each unwanted aggression as it happens happy in the  knowledge that the aggressor is out there doing their job aggressing  against those they want aggressed.


Does anyone have the right to aggress against others, or to direct the state to aggress against others? 

If someone is prevented from aggressing against others, or from directing the state to do so, are his rights violated?




> Some people have little self control and will not do certain things unless force is used on them but they will pay people to force them to do those things.


No, if X pays Y to punch X in the face, that punch isn't aggression. 

"Voluntary aggression" is impossible by definition. 

The idea that stopping an aggression violate's the victims "right to be aggressed against" is absurd a priori.




> Wrong analogy


Were anyone's rights were violated by Z's actions?




> X wants to form their own country
> 
> Y says no way, y'all belong to us and we'll kill you if you go through with it. We're just doing this for your own good.


Are X and Y individuals or groups of people?

----------


## Swordsmyth

> In other words...
> 
>  Originally Posted by *r3volution 3.0*  
>  				Who controls the state matters only  insofar as  it affects state behavior (does it kill or not kill redheads,  does it  tax a lot or a little, etc).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes?


There are many legitimate functions of the state that can be managed in different ways, people will have different opinions on which way should be chosen by their government.






> Does anyone have the right to aggress against others, or to direct the state to aggress against others? 
> 
> If someone is prevented from aggressing against others, or from directing the state to do so, are his rights violated?


If most of the people want their state to aggress against eachother and are willing to submit to that aggression in return then it is none of our business to intervene.






> No, if X pays Y to punch X in the face, that punch isn't aggression. 
> 
> "Voluntary aggression" is impossible by definition. 
> 
> The idea that stopping an aggression violate's the victims "right to be aggressed against" is absurd a priori.


But they don't pay someone to punch them, they pay someone to punch people who "deserve it" and to determine who "deserves it", then they submit to being punched even if they don't think they "deserved it" because they think their state has an acceptable "batting average".

----------


## r3volution 3.0

@Swordsmyth

Two scenarios:

#1. Pablo votes to have the  state rob him and his neighbors of $2/year. Pablo likes this (it gives him some material/psychic benefit). 

#2. Pablo  is disenfranchised, and this non-representative state robs him  and his neighbors of $1/year. Pablo preferred the old arrangement.

In  moving from scenario #1 to #2, are Pablo's rights violated?

----------


## Swordsmyth

> @Swordsmyth
> 
> Two scenarios:
> 
> #1. Pablo votes to have the  state rob him and his neighbors of $2/year. Pablo likes this (it gives him some material/psychic benefit). 
> 
> #2. Pablo  is disenfranchised, and this non-representative state robs him  and his neighbors of $1/year. Pablo preferred the old arrangement.
> 
> In  moving from scenario #1 to #2, are Pablo's rights violated?


Do most of his neighbors agree with the arrangement in #1?

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> Do most of his neighbors agree with the arrangement in #1?


Sure

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Sure


Then you have deprived them of their right to create and submit to the system of their choice.

I know it is a difficult position to argue so I have a backup, the one I started with in this thread:

It is better for the liberty lovers to be separated from those who hate liberty to prevent contamination, also it is unfair to risk their blood and treasure conquering, subduing and ruling the barbarians.

The first argument might be questioned to allow a volunteer group from within or even from outside to attempt to reform a corrupt culture, if someone goes "dark jedi" to do so I would not interfere, I would need much thought and prayer before I would participate however.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> Then you have deprived them of their right to create and submit to the system of their choice.


That alleged right includes the right to commit aggressions (or have them committed on one's behalf)?

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## Swordsmyth

> That alleged right includes the right to commit aggressions (or have them committed on one's behalf)?


In their territory, yes.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> In their territory, yes.


I want to be sure I'm understanding you correctly...

You're saying that the majority within a territory (however delimited) has a right to commit aggression (murder, rape, robbery, etc)?

That it would be unjust to prevent them from committing whatever aggression they'd like to commit?

----------


## Swordsmyth

> I want to be sure I'm understanding you correctly...
> 
> You're saying that the majority within a territory (however delimited) has a right to commit aggression (murder, rape, robbery, etc)?
> 
> That it would be unjust to prevent them from committing whatever aggression they'd like to commit?


I am saying that they have a right to administer justice in their territory and an outsider does not, if they do so poorly or outright corruptly that is between them and GOD or them and their people.

Since I do not claim to be all wise I leave open the possibility that an extreme enough case would allow a group of volunteer crusaders to conquer the barbarians and impose justice on them until they were reformed enough to be given control of their own destiny again, which might include keeping the descendants of the crusaders as their rulers.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> I am saying that they have a right to administer justice in their territory and an outsider does not, if they do so poorly or outright corruptly that is between them and GOD or them and their people.


Which essentially means a right to do whatever they want, no?




> Since I do not claim to be all wise I leave open the possibility that an  extreme enough case would allow a group of volunteer crusaders to  conquer the barbarians and impose justice on them until they were  reformed enough to be given control of their own destiny again, which  might include keeping the descendants of the crusaders as their rulers.


And how would you evaluate cases to determine when intervention is justified?

Perhaps you would look at the aggression which would be prevented, in comparison to the aggression involved in the preventing?

An aggression minimization analysis?

Such that any intervention is justified if there's good enough reason to believe it would reduce net aggression?

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Which essentially means a right to do whatever they want, no?


Yes, from an outsider's point of view.






> And how would you evaluate cases to determine when intervention is justified?
> 
> Perhaps you would look at the aggression which would be prevented, in comparison to the aggression involved in the preventing?
> 
> An aggression minimization analysis?
> 
> Such that any intervention is justified if there's good enough reason to believe it would reduce net aggression?


No, it would take an extreme case to possibly justify the aggression required to conquer and rule by force, I do not know where the threshold might be therefore I would approach the idea with extreme caution and skepticism.

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## r3volution 3.0

> Yes, from an outsider's point of view.


Alright, so I think you've explained your view clearly. 

Now I ask, why do you hold that view?

Is it deontological? The majority simply have the right to do what they in like "their" territory, because they do because they do because they do?

Or is their some consequentialist reasoning?




> No, it would take an extreme case to possibly justify the aggression required to conquer and rule by force, I do not know where the threshold might be therefore I would approach the idea with extreme caution and skepticism.


There must be some basis for distinguishing extreme cases warranting intervention from other cases.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Alright, so I think you've explained your view clearly. 
> 
> Now I ask, why do you hold that view?
> 
> Is it deontological? The majority simply have the right to do what they in like "their" territory, because they do because they do because they do?
> 
> Or is their some consequentialist reasoning?


It is a matter of property rights, the administration of justice is tied to the sovereign, territorial, collective level of property and they own that territory and the right to administer justice within it.






> There must be some basis for distinguishing extreme cases warranting intervention from other cases.


There is perhaps some threshold of tyranny that would distinguish cases that might warrant intervention but I do not know a rational definition of where that would be, therefore I would have to rely on my instincts and prayer to decide whether I would participate unless someone wiser taught me where the threshold was.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> It is a matter of property rights, the administration of justice is tied to the sovereign, territorial, collective level of property and they own that territory and the right to administer justice within it.


Me: "Bob has the right to use the car."

You: "Why?"

Me: "Because he owns it."

My explanation is a tautology. 

To own something _means_ to have the right to use it. 

My explanation amounts to "Bob has the right to use the car because he has the right to use the car."

...

This is akin to what you just said, as to why the majority has a right to do what they please.

It's tautological. 

Your answer doesn't actually explain _why_ majority rule is good, it's just a restatement of the claim _that_ it is good. 

In other words, it sounds like your support for majority rule is deontological, rather than consequentialist.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Me: "Bob has the right to use the car."
> 
> You: "Why?"
> 
> Me: "Because he owns it."
> 
> My explanation is a tautology. 
> 
> To own something _means_ to have the right to use it. 
> ...


Ownership is NOT the same as the right to use something.

GOD created the universe so he owns it, he has delegated subsidiary ownership to man therefore man owns the world, as far as specific territory goes the LORD has not very often spoken to grant title to one group or another so the atheist explanation comes into play, possession is 9/10ths of the law, it takes a whole lot of justification to overrule that 9/10ths.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> Ownership is NOT the same as the right to use something.


It certainly is.




> GOD created the universe so he owns it


That's fine, but it has no bearing on human interaction on planet Earth.

On planet Earth, where there are scarce resources and humans with conflicting wants, the function of property is to define who gets to use what. 

Unless and until God wants to borrow my car, He doesn't come into play. 




> he has delegated subsidiary ownership to man therefore man owns the world, as far as specific territory goes the LORD has not very often spoken to grant title to one group or another so the atheist explanation comes into play, possession is 9/10ths of the law, it takes a whole lot of justification to overrule that 9/10ths.


I don't know what you mean about possession.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> I don't know what you mean about possession.


They occupy and control their territory, it is in their possession, therefore they own it since there is no higher authority tasked with administering justice that has determined otherwise.

Possession is 9/10ths of the law, the burden of proof is on YOU to show that they should be deprived of their property rights to administer justice within their territory.



Is not good enough.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> They occupy and control their territory, it is in their possession, therefore they own it since there is no higher authority tasked with administering justice that has determined otherwise.


If possession = ownership, ownership becomes meaningless. Rights cease to exist. 

Murder, rape, theft, etc become impossible by definition. You grab someone's throat, [...], purse, you own it.

That is no moral theory at all. That is "whatever is is good." Nihilism.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> If possession = ownership, ownership becomes meaningless. Rights cease to exist. 
> 
> Murder, rape, theft, etc become impossible by definition. You grab someone's throat, [...], purse, you own it.
> 
> That is no moral theory at all. That is "whatever is is good." Nihilism.


If "I think I am right and can do better with their property" is how ownership is defined then rights cease to exist.

In most cases throughout history GOD has not spoken to grant title on a piece of land to one group or another, so at the sovereign level we are in a state of anarchy.
One reason I grant the possibility of intervention by a group of volunteers is because of the point you make but possession is 9/10ths of the law for a reason, if you want to seize control  of an area from it's current owners you must build a convincing case on top of the other 10th. (The other 10th being the location of the duties and responsibilities of the ruler/s to the ruled in the case of sovereign territory)

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> If "I think I am right and can do better with their property" is how ownership is defined then rights cease to exist.


A free market economy is one in which property rights are universally respected.

What is its value? Why is it preferable to, say, state socialism?

----------


## Swordsmyth

> A free market economy is one in which property rights are universally respected.
> 
> What is its value? Why is it preferable to, say, state socialism?


People who are secure in their rights to their property have better motivation to create wealth. (The value from the collective point of view)
Property is a fundamental GOD given right and respecting it is right. (The value from a moral point of view)
If I respect your property you can be required to respect mine. (The value from a selfish point of view)

Do you have any other insights?

How does any of this mean that property rights are not to be respected at the sovereign level?

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> People who are secure in their rights to their property have better motivation to create wealth. (The value from the collective point of view)
> Property is a fundamental GOD given right and respecting it is right. (The value from a moral point of view)
> If I respect your property you can be required to respect mine. (The value from a selfish point of view)
> 
> Do you have any other insights?
> 
> How does any of this mean that property rights are not to be respected at the sovereign level?


The Politburo in fact rules Russia.

It _possesses_ that "sovereign property."

How would you criticize it?

In implementing hardcore communism and destroying the country, it's merely exercising its property rights, no?

----------


## Swordsmyth

> The Politburo in fact rules Russia.
> 
> It _possesses_ that "sovereign property."
> 
> How would you criticize it?


I would point out all the ways that it violates the rights of those subject to it's jurisdiction in violation of it's duty and responsibility to them, I also might criticize it's violation of other sovereigns' rights or those of their citizens.

The $1,000,000 question is: Have they violated people's right sufficiently to justify a violent overthrow of their regime?

----------


## r3volution 3.0

@Swordsmyth

What I'm suggesting to you is that the only legitimate function of the ruler is to protect the property rights of the ruled. The ruler's "right to rule", though it can be characterized as property, does not serve the same function as the property rights of the ruled. The property rights of the ruled should be respected because (deontologically) murder, rape, and robbery and bad per se; and (consequentially) because poverty is inferior to prosperity. Why should the ruler's right to rule be respected? _Because he protects the property rights of the ruled_. Insofar as he _doesn't_ do that, there is no reason to respect his right to rule. "Sovereign property" or whatever you like to call it is merely a means to an end. Property rights in the ordinary sense of the word are the end. Otherwise, there is no basis for criticizing any state at all. If you consider "the right to rule" as not a means to the end of securing subjects' property, but as an end in itself, then Mao, Stalin, etc, were simply exercising their property rights, and there is no basis for any criticism.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> @Swordsmyth
> 
> What I'm suggesting to you is that the only legitimate function of the ruler is to protect the property rights of the ruled. The ruler's "right to rule", though it can be characterized as property, does not serve the same function as the property rights of the ruled. The property rights of the ruled should be respected because (deontologically) murder, rape, and robbery and bad per se; and (consequentially) because poverty is inferior to prosperity. Why should the ruler's right to rule be respected? _Because he protects the property rights of the ruled_. Insofar as he _doesn't_ do that, there is no reason to respect his right to rule. "Sovereign property" or whatever you like to call it is merely a means to an end. Property rights in the ordinary sense of the word are the end.


But there are aspects of government that can have legitimate variation, the "flavor" choices in these aspects are the property of the current ruler/s.

Also if the "batting average" of the current regime is above a certain threshold it is not justifiable to cause the death and destruction involved in a violent overthrow.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> But there are aspects of government that can have legitimate variation, the "flavor" choices in these aspects are the property of the current ruler/s.


So, for instance, the choice between a judicial system employing juries and one which doesn't?

Or a police force with local chiefs having this amount of discretion or that?

Or a tax system based on taxing land versus one taxing sales?

These variations (all within the broad context of minarchy) are the "flavor" choices that belong to the rulers?

...as the property of which they can't justly be deprived?

----------


## Swordsmyth

> So, for instance, the choice between a judicial system employing juries and one which doesn't?
> 
> Or a police force with local chiefs having this amount of discretion or that?
> 
> Or a tax system with land taxed or sales taxed?
> 
> These variations (all within the broad context of minarchy) are the "flavor" choices that belong to the rulers?


There are others but those are good examples.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> There are others but those are good examples.


Here are two interpretations of what you're saying. Tell me which one is correct:

1. It is not possible to know which of these flavor choices (say, jury or no jury) actually maximizes subjects' liberty, so we shouldn't interfere. 

2. Even if we know that one of these flavor choices is better for subjects' liberty, and the ruler chooses wrong, we shouldn't interfere.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Here are two interpretations of what you're saying. Tell me which one is correct:
> 
> 1. It is not possible to know which of these flavor choices (say, jury or no jury) actually maximizes subjects' liberty, so we shouldn't interfere.


In many cases this is correct.






> 2. Even if we know that one of these flavor choices is better for subjects' liberty, and the ruler chooses wrong, we shouldn't interfere.


In many cases this is correct, because of the death and destruction that a violent overthrow would cause.

3. Some choices do not make any difference as far as the rights of the subjects go.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0
> 
> 1. It is not possible to know which of these flavor choices (say, jury  or no jury) actually maximizes subjects' liberty, so we shouldn't  interfere.
> 
> 
> In many cases this is correct.


My argument has been that if a change in government would result in a net increase in liberty, it would be justified. Naturally, for a particular person or group to justly carry out such a change, they would have to know to a reasonable degree of certainty that those would be the results. If they don't know, if they're guessing, then it's an unjustice: as would be executing someone for murder based on guesses, or anything else of that sort. 




> Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0
> 
> . Even if we know that one of these flavor choices is better for  subjects' liberty, and the ruler chooses wrong, we shouldn't  interfere.
> 
> 
> In many cases this is correct, because of the death and destruction that a violent overthrow would cause.


In other words, you would look at the aggressions prevented by the intervention vis a vis the aggressons it entails. 

Net aggression analysis. 




> 3. Some choices do not make any difference as far as the rights of the subjects go.


True (say, the color of the flag), and those choices are not rights of the rulers, because they don't serve to protect subjects' rights.

They're of no consequence. Hence, depriving the ruler of such choices is harmless.

----------


## Firestarter

> Following the vote on October 1, King Felipe VI made a rare  appearance on national TV. He called on the Catalan government to return  to constitutional legality and made no apologies for the terror  campaign launched by the national police. Neither did he address his  Catalan subjects in their own language.
> *At that point Felipe  stopped being the king of all Spaniards.* As relations between Madrid and  Barcelona continue to deteriorate, he would do well to consider making  the ultimate sacrifice to save his country from itself.
> *Keeping  Catalonia in Spain by taking Spain out of Catalonia is therefore  directly tied to making Felipe a regular citizen of the country like  everybody else.* His abdication would lead to the proclamation of the  Third Spanish Republic, to new governments in Madrid and Barcelona, and  to a constitutional assembly that could result in the creation of a  multi-national federal state where Andalusians, Basques, Canarians,  Castilians, Catalans and others could reconcile with their past as they  look to reclaim and refashion the old notion of the many Spains, or _ Las Españas_.
> Any other alternatives at this point would seem to lead nowhere but to saying goodbye to Spain.
> 
> More at: http://www.newsweek.com/king-felipe-...-crisis-689346


Why oh why, believe the subjects of a ruthless dictator like King Felipe VI this nonsense?
The PM (Puppet Minister) does as he's ordered by the ruthless King to protect his empire.

When Catalonians declare "independence" they effectively are taking from the ruthless King, who will rather let his evil forces strike the independence movement down, than to allow this to happen.

Do the Catalonians don't understand that they are effectively fighting to stop being subjects of King Felipe?
In the way it is written here, the highlighted parts, King Felipe is a subject of "his" subjects... That's a _contradictio in terminis_.
Unless of course, we believe R3volution 3.0

----------


## bunklocoempire

_Catalonia!
Catalonia!

What makes your big head so hard?_

Willful ignorance, I reckon.

----------


## Suzanimal

> European arrest warrant issued for ex-Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont
> 
> A Spanish judge has issued an international arrest warrant for Catalonia’s ousted president a day after she jailed eight members of the region’s separatist government pending possible charges over last week’s declaration of independence.
> 
> In the latest twist in Spain’s worst political crisis in four decades, a national court judge issued a European arrest warrant for Carles Puigdemont in response to a request from state prosecutors.
> 
> Puigdemont flew to Brussels earlier this week with a handful of his deposed ministers after Spanish authorities removed him and his cabinet from office for pushing ahead with the declaration despite repeated warnings that it was illegal.
> 
> Puigdemont’s Belgian lawyer has already said his client will fight extradition without seeking political asylum.
> ...


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ont?CMP=twt_gu

----------


## Swordsmyth

Thousands of Catalans gathered in downtown Barcelona on Nov. 2 to  protest the arrest by Spanish authorities of eight regional members of  the Catalan government, BBC reported. On Nov. 3, students and  pro-independence organizations temporarily blocked roads, highways and  railroads in different parts of Catalonia, La Vanguardia reported.

More at: https://worldview.stratfor.com/situa...atalan-leaders

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> _Catalonia!
> Catalonia!
> 
> What makes your big head so hard?_
> 
> Willful ignorance, I reckon.


Stupidity will do.

----------


## Pauls' Revere

http://www.bing.com/search?q=Catalan...=2&FORM=HPNN01

https://www.thelocal.es/20171104/spa...der-puigdemont

 Spanish prosecutors want to charge Puigdemont, holed up in Belgium, with rebellion, sedition and misuse of public funds. On Thursday the 54-year-old ignored a summons to appear before the same judge in Madrid.

A EU arrest warrant was also issued for four other Catalan ministers who failed to show up and are also thought to be in Belgium, a court statement said. They, like Puigdemont, were dismissed by Spain's central government a week ago.

----------


## nobody's_hero

> http://www.bing.com/search?q=Catalan...=2&FORM=HPNN01
> 
> https://www.thelocal.es/20171104/spa...der-puigdemont
> 
>  Spanish prosecutors want to charge Puigdemont, holed up in Belgium, with rebellion, sedition and misuse of public funds. On Thursday the 54-year-old ignored a summons to appear before the same judge in Madrid.
> 
> A EU arrest warrant was also issued for four other Catalan ministers who failed to show up and are also thought to be in Belgium, a court statement said. They, like Puigdemont, were dismissed by Spain's central government a week ago.


Sounds like they intend to make the guy a political martyr. Spain should probably pardon him if they want this thing to blow over rather than escalate.

----------


## Pauls' Revere

> Sounds like they intend to make the guy a political martyr. Spain should probably pardon him if they want this thing to blow over rather than escalate.


Or, do they plan on running a movement on the lamb?

Also, who fills the void for the vote Dec21? Candidates from Madrid? are there deputies in the Catalan ranks that can step up?

----------


## Swordsmyth

*Ousted Catalan Leader Turns Himself In To Belgian Police*Ousted Catalan president Carles Puigdemont and four ex-ministers on  Sunday turned themselves in to Belgian authorities to start the process  of their possible extradition to Spain. Puigdemont was accompanied by  four other former Catalan officials who are also wanted by Spanish  authorities after they fled to Belgium last week after their removed  from power by Spanish authorities as part of an extraordinary crackdown  to impede the region’s illegal declaration of independence.

Puigdemont suggested he will fight extradition  as he doesn’t believe he will get a fair trial in Spain; he also said  that he was willing to campaign out of Belgium for the Catalan elections  set to take place on Dec. 21. According to Belgian law, his legal  battle against extradition can last up to two months.  Addressing Puigdemont's concern, a Belgian government official said  on Sunday that the international community has to keep a close eye on  Spain to make sure that ousted Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont gets  fair legal treatment in Madrid.  
 

 Belgian Vice Premier and Interior Minister Jan Jambon told the VTM network that *“I  am just questioning how an EU member state can go this far — and I am  asking myself where Europe is to have an opinion on this.”*And speaking of what now appears to be certain snap elections in  Catalonia, an opinion poll published by Barcelona’s La Vanguardia  newspaper forecasts a tight electoral race between parties for and  against the independence of Catalonia from the rest of Spain.  Pro-secession parties held a majority of 72 of 135 seats in the Catalan  Parliament before it was dissolved by Spanish authorities as part of a  crackdown after it had voted for a declaration of independence. Spanish  authorities then called for a snap election for Catalonia on Dec. 21.
*The new poll predicts that the three pro-secession parties  would win between 66 and 69 seats in December. Sixty-eight seats are  needed for a majority,* which means that while narrow, a pro-secession vote would mean that the ongoing drama is set to continue indefinitely.


More at: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-1...belgian-police

----------


## Swordsmyth

First of all, *Brussels can no longer insist that this is an internal, domestic, Spanish issue,* since Catalan president Puidgemont is in... Brussels. So are 4 members of his government.
 That moves decisions to be made about his situation from the Spanish  legal system to its Belgian counterpart. And the two are not identical  twins. Even if both countries are EU members. This may expose a very  large European problem: the lack of equality among justice systems.  Citizens of EU member countries are free to move and work across the  Union, but they are subject to different laws and constitutions.
*The way the Spanish government tries to go after Puidgemont  is exactly the same as the way Turkish president Erdogan tries to get to  his perceived archenemy, Fethullah Gülen, a longtime resident of  Pennsylvania.* But the US doesn’t want to extradite Gülen, not  even now Turkey arrests US embassy personnel. The Americans have had  enough of Erdogan.
 Erdogan accuses Gülen of organizing a coup. Spanish PM Rajoy accuses  the Catalan government of the same. But they are not the same kind of  coup. The Turkish one saw violence and death. The Spanish one did not,  at least not from the side of those who allegedly perpetrated the coup.
*Brussels should have intervened in the Catalonia mess a long time ago,* called a meeting, instead of claiming this had nothing to do with the EU, a claim as cowardly as it is cheap. *You’re  either a union or you’re not. And if you are, the well-being of all  your citizens is your responsibility. You don’t get to cherry pick. You  got to walk your talk.*
 Belgian news paper De Standaard today makes an interesting  distinction. It says the Belgian judicial system is not asked to  “extradite” Puidgemont to Spain (uitlevering), but to “surrender” him  (overlevering). Legal gibberish.
 The paper also states that the case will go through three different  courts, each of which has 15 days to announce a decision, so Puidgemont  is safe for at least a month and a half. And then on December 21, Rajoy  had called elections in Catalonia. For which, reportedly, he will seek  to ban several parties. Don’t be surprised if that includes  Puidgemont’s.
*Moreover, even if the democratically elected president of  Catalonia loses all appeals available to him, he could then ask for  asylum in Belgium* (apparently, Belgium is the only EU member  country in which EU citizens can ask for asylum). And then you would  really get into a mix-up of EU versus Belgian versus Spanish laws. In a  way this is good, it would test a system that is not prepared at all for  such divergences.

More at: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-1...ng-eu-collapse

----------


## Swordsmyth

It seems that the great plan of Catalan nationalists for independence was *“Step  aside while I make a revolution, otherwise I’m going to call you names.  On Twitter. And maybe make a video on Youtube and share it with my  friends on Facebook.”* That’s it.
 While Kurds are fighting Islamic  terrorists and brandishing AK-47s in Syria, Catalans are brandishing  their Iphones. The former are fighting for independence, the latter look  like they are attending a pop concert.
_Catalans over-relied  on social media outrage to support their cause, just to find out that  after a few days, people go back to their lives and lose interest.  Nobody lifted a finger in favour of Catalonia. Not even Catalans  themselves. It might be that the region is still wealthy despite some  problems, hence a civil war would result in more material loss than the  Catalans are ready to put up with for the prize of independence. This is  not how revolutions are done.

_More at: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-1...vement-failing_
_

----------


## Swordsmyth

Catalonia’s former leader Carles Puigdemont was spared custody on  Monday, when a Brussels court ruled he could remain at liberty in  Belgium until it had heard Spanish charges against him of rebellion.

The court’s decision means Puigdemont, who left  Spain last month after Madrid fired his secessionist government and  dissolved the Catalan parliament, is free to campaign for independence  in an election in the region on Dec 21. 
Puigdemont  said on Monday his government’s actions were legitimate and criticized  the Spanish judicial system for a “clear lack of independence and  neutrality”. 
The December vote is shaping up to be a de facto independence referendum. 
Puigdemont’s  PDeCAT and another secessionist party said at the weekend they might  run on a combined ticket, but would need to make a decision on any  formal alliance - which might also include other parties - by a deadline  of Tuesday.  
Alliances could however also form after the election. 

More at: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-sp...-idUSKBN1D616K

----------


## Swordsmyth

*General strike shuts down roads and railways in Catalonia*https://www.thelocal.es/20171108/general-strike-shuts-down-roads-and-railways-in-catalonia

----------


## Swordsmyth

*Spanish Supreme Court frees Catalan parliament speaker on bail*https://www.yahoo.com/news/spains-supreme-court-over-independence-vote-case-catalan-162616196--business.html

----------


## Pauls' Revere

Protesters demanding the release of separatist leaders.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/protester...174816081.html

_Catalonia's two main grassroots independence groups called the march, under the slogan "Freedom for the political prisoners," after their leaders were remanded in custody on charges of sedition last month._

----------


## Swordsmyth

*Spanish Government Blames Russian "Dezinformatsiya" Campaign For Catalan Uprising*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-10/spanish-government-blames-russian-dezinformatsiya-campaign-catalan-uprising

----------


## Swordsmyth

The attorney general of Spain, who was prosecuting the separatist  leaders of Catalonia, died Nov. 18 while in Argentina for an  international law conference, The New York Times reported Nov. 19.

More at: https://worldview.stratfor.com/situa...paratists-dies

???

----------


## Swordsmyth

Mr. Maza, 66, died in a Buenos Aires hospital, shortly after saying he  felt unwell. His death was confirmed by Spain’s justice minister, Rafael  Catalá, and attributed to a kidney infection.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/19/w...y-general.html

----------


## Firestarter

I've read that Spain has strict hate speech laws, especially when the speech is directed at police, legal system or the Royal family.
A lot of Spanish legal experts are saying that the charges of rebellion are over the top. It'll be interesting to see how the new prosecutor deals with this.

On 20 October, the European Union has been awarded a prize at a prestigious Spanish awards ceremony, presided over by the King Felipe VI and Queen Letizia.
Antonio Tajani *(*President of the European Parliament),  Jean-Claude Juncker (President of the European Commission), and Donald Tusk (President of the European Council) jointly received the _Princess of Asturias Award for Concord_.
Also several members of the Spanish cabinet were present, including Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy.


The Catalonia crisis was one of the “highlights” in King Felipe’s speech.
Felipe described Spain as “_open and generous_: 


> a country where every single Spaniard can recognise themselves’ and ‘a country where a variety of peoples have found protection, recognition and respect for their languages, their cultures, their customs and traditions, and their institutions, building a common heritage that enriches and identifies us as Spaniards.
> 
> We, Spanish people, would not like to tear down what we have built together with everyone’s contributions – an invaluable legacy that belongs to us all. This was possible because Spain is rooted in a real desire to live together and understand one another, to abide by the law and *the rules of democracy*, to acknowledge our mistakes so as not to make them again.


 http://marcaespana.es/en/news/societ...-unity-and-law

These monarchs are oh so democratic, of course until somebody disagrees with them...


On 9 November, Jean-Claude Juncker was in Spain again today, to scoop an honorary degree in Salamanca.
Some government ministers were present: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017...n-nationalism/

----------


## Swordsmyth

*Catalan Independence Drive Fizzles: Poll Shows Only 24% Want Split From Spain*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-27/catalan-independence-drive-fizzles-poll-shows-only-24-want-split-spain



It's almost like Puigdemont did this on purpose.   ????

----------


## osan

> ...



Free country?  OK.

Firstly, Spaniards would not know freedom if it gave them a blowjob.

Secondly, if true, place your money on Themme finding a way to put that nonsense to a conspicuously unpleasant end.

I could be wrong, but I don't think the globalist interests are playing games where one-world hegemony is concerned.  

It should prove interesting to get a load of what the Catalonians consider to constitute freedom.  It should prove at least equally interesting to see how the rest of Spain meets this heresy.

----------


## Pauls' Revere

> *Catalan Independence Drive Fizzles: Poll Shows Only 24% Want Split From Spain*http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-27/catalan-independence-drive-fizzles-poll-shows-only-24-want-split-spain
> 
> 
> 
> It's almost like Puigdemont did this on purpose.   ????


Just so he could go to jail?

Seems they lost the momentum.

----------


## Pauls' Revere

> Free country?  OK.
> 
> Firstly, Spaniards would not know freedom if it gave them a blowjob.
> 
> Secondly, if true, place your money on Themme finding a way to put that nonsense to a conspicuously unpleasant end.
> 
> I could be wrong, but I don't think the globalist interests are playing games where one-world hegemony is concerned.  
> 
> It should prove interesting to get a load of what the Catalonians consider to constitute freedom.  It should prove at least equally interesting to see how the rest of Spain meets this heresy.


and the lessons learned from the E.U. so as to squash further attempts by other E.U. nations/areas that want to separate. Hell, come to think of it. Im sure political parties around the world are taking notes on what to do to keep the sheep in line.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Just so he could go to jail?


I expect he will be rewarded somehow after he drops out of the public eye.




> Seems they lost the momentum.


Puigdemont killed it.

----------


## Pauls' Revere

> I expect he will be rewarded somehow after he drops out of the public eye.
> 
> 
> 
> Puigdemont killed it.


keep our eye on his story and the others that were jailed with him. Wonder if they end up with yachts living in Greece.

----------


## Firestarter

Because the jailed members of the Catalan Government are locked up, they can’t run their political campaign for the coming 21 December election.
Some analysts think that this could work in their advantage. 


> The imprisonment of two prominent activists and eight former ministers is made more unusual by the fact that most of them are in the middle of a political campaign.
> 
> Seven of the eight imprisoned ministers are running for re-election to the Catalan parliament on 21 December. Jordi Sànchez, one of the two imprisoned activists, has decided to stand on a list with the former Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont. But he has struggled to find out who else he is running with.
> 
> "The prison authorities didn't let me give him the list of candidates," said his lawyer, Jordi Pina, "So I had to hold it up to the glass." 
> 
> (…)
> The potential penalties are severe. If convicted of rebellion, the former cabinet ministers face up to 35 years in prison. The two activists, who face the lesser charge of sedition, face a maximum sentence of 10 years.


 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42136236



A delegation of MEPs found out that the “_the right to access any European prison_” doesn’t apply in the Kingdom of Spain. 


> “We have not found any kind of cooperation from the government in Madrid,” said Italian MEP Eleonora Forenza, who forms part of a delegation of 16 MEPs who want to visit imprisoned Catalan government members. “They are making it more and more difficult for this delegation to be able to visit the political prisoners," Forenza added, calling the situation “unacceptable.” "We demand their freedom, but also our right to visit them," she insisted.
> 
> No explanations
> 
> “For now we have not had any reasoned response with explanations,” said French-born Marie-Pierre Vieu. “We find it extremely serious,” she added, recalling that MEPs have the right to access any European prison. “We ask to be respected,” she went on to say, “to come and talk with the democratically-elected politicians.”


 http://catalannews.com/politics/item...-and-activists

The locked up Catalan politicians hope to be released on bail so they can be with their families and take part in the election campaign.

----------


## Firestarter

There a Spanish forum member on Davidicke.com that has made some good posts on this topic (which I have changed a little and reposted here...).

When the Spanish courts issued a European Arrest Warrant for Carles Puigdemont, several government ministers announced that they had full confidence in the Belgian justice system. They pointed out that Belgium is a democracy “just like Spain”.
It was looking like Belgium would reject the warrant altogether, over concerns that the Spanish legal system is prosecuting Puigdemont because he’s a political dissident.

Attempting to save face, the Spanish Supreme Court withdrew the arrest warrant, which the Government and media in Madrid described as an “intelligent move”.
The newspaper El Mundo tried to spin the news with the headline: “Supreme Court traps Puigdemont”. They claim that he now has no excuse for staying in Belgium and should return to Catalonia for the election campaign (of course he'd be arrested immediately at arriving in Spain).

On Friday the Spanish Justice Minister was in Brussels trying to persuade the EU to change the rules on the European Arrest Warrant, to make the procedure “quicker and easier”.
The minister claimed that European law needs to be brought up to date by including crimes that are peculiar to Spain, such as rebellion and sedition. He even argued that the change is needed because the warrant issued against Puigdemont didn't bring about the "expected result".

The EU didn’t grant the request by Spain, and answered: “We_ do not see any need to change their functioning, in terms of the list of crimes that can be included_": http://www.elnacional.cat/en/politic...19708_102.html

----------


## Swordsmyth

*Spanish Crisis Returns: Separatists Win Catalan Election In Huge Blow To Rajoy*Despite growing expectations that Catalan separatist fervor had  abated in the aftermath of the post-independence fiasco, consensus was  once again set for disappointment and on Thursday night, Spain was  thrown back into chaos after the three Catalan separatist parties, Junts  per Catalunya, Republican Catalan Left and the CUP, held on to a small  but critical majority in the Catalan regional parliamentary election, *dealing a stunning rebuke to Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy and his attempt to bury the Catalan independence movement*.
 With virtually all of the vote counted, the separatists held on to 70  seats, down from 72 in the 2015 election and 1 less than the initial  exit polls predicted, just weeks after PM Mariano Rajoy fired the former  first minister, Carles Puigdement and his entire government after the  held what Madrid dubbed an "illegal referendum" and declared  independence on October 27. Yet while the separatists won as a group,  the biggest individual winner was the Ciudadanos party, which gained  300,000 more votes and 12 more seats compared to its 2015 position. It  was also the single biggest party to emerge from today's election with a  total of 37 seats. Meanwhile for Rajoy's People's Party, *the result was a disaster as it finished in last place among the mainstream parties with just three seats.*

_Source: The Spain Report_
 But even more importantly, it was a personal victory for Carles  Puigdemont, the ousted Catalan president who campaigned in self-imposed  exile from Brussels. His Junts per Catalunya emerged as the most-popular  separatist party, *handing him a mandate to lead the secession campaign*, after Junts per Catalunya beat Oriol Junqueras and Republican Catalan Left to lead the separatist block. As The Spain Report noted,  Junts per Catalunya obtained slightly more than 900,000 votes and 34  seats. Esquerra won slightly fewer than 900,000 votes but only 32 seats.  The radical-left, pro-independence CUP lost six of its ten seats and  about half of its votes.
 The Catalan Socialist Party (PSC, Miquel Iceta) gained 50,000 votes and one seat.
 The Popular Party in Catalonia, led by Xavier García Albiol, lost  eight of its eleven seats, dropping to just three, and, like the CUP,  approximately half of its votes. As 
 Catalunya en Comú Podem, the Podemos brand for these regional  elections, lost three seats compared to its previous brand result in  2015, falling to eight seats. 
 Both blocks obtained more votes than in 2015 due to a turnout that rose six points to 82% compared to 2015.
 And while the Ciudadanos ascent was remarkable, the take home of the  night is that in this implicit referendum, the Catalan separatist  sentiment once again prevailed as Carles Puigdement observed.
 Speaking in a press conference in Brussels, the deposed Catalan  president said that "the people of Catalonia have given a lesson to the  world: the Catalan republic has beaten the monarchy of the 155." He was  referring to the Constitutional Article 155 which the Spanish government  used to take control of Catalan government. "The Spanish state has been  defeated" Puigdement said and added that *"Election results mean reparation, rectification and restitution are needed."*
 The deposed leader also said that "the legitimate government must  return immediately power in Catalonia", envisioning of course, himself. 
 He concluded by claiming that "things are even better for  secessionists today than they were two years ago, as the group has  gained parliamentary power" and threatened that "if PM Rajoy continues  to apply the same recipes he will continue to get the same results."

More at: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-1...d-secession-ca

----------


## goldenequity

65% of vote in
71 seats to the independence parties
*68 seats needed to get an absolute parliamentary majority*

VIVA LA REPUBLICA DE CATALUNYA 

VOP Today
*Supporters of Catalonia’s independence receive the majority of seats in parliament
https://voiceofpeopletoday.com/suppo...ts-parliament/*



►Shouts of "Puigdemont our president!" in the electoral seat of @JuntsXCat.

Steven Marwick
►Rajoy has gambled and lost today, he must resign and make way for someone willing to negotiate in good faith with the new government of #Catalonia. 
This is a political impasse which requires political solutions. The judiciary has no proper part in it.

The Associated Press
►BREAKING: Party of ousted Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont claims victory for separatist bloc in regional election.

Russian Market
►ARTADI SAYS MADRID'S TAKEOVER OF CATALONIA DEFEATED BY BALLOTS

►PP (Rajoy) takes only 3 seats. It's worst result since the founding of the party. Total humiliation.





*Puigdemont:* "The Catalan Republic has won in the monarchy of article 155. Let them take note!"

"We have kept something fundamental: the legitimacy of the institution and its historical continuity"

*Puigdemont goes to Europe* and asks those who have supported the Spanish government to change their strategy 
because *"the Rajoy recipe does not work"*


*Puigdemont to the Spanish government:* "Suspend the 155, release the political prisoners and start making politics, Mr. Rajoy"

----------


## r3volution 3.0

Too bad that the nationalists retained the majority, but at least the fairly liberal Ciudadanos gained some seats.

----------


## Pauls' Revere

https://www.thelocal.es/20171229/raj...demont-belgium

[sic]

 Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy on Friday denounced as "absurd" the idea that ousted Catalan president Carles Puigdemont could govern from Belgium where he is in self-imposed exile to avoid arrest.

"It is absurd to pretend to be the president of a region when you live abroad, and even more absurd to pretend that you are carrying out this function from abroad," Rajoy said in his end-of-year press conference in Madrid.

His remarks came a week after Catalan separatist parties claimed victory in a divisive snap election.

Madrid had called the poll after Catalan lawmakers declared independence on October 27, triggering Spain's worst political crisis since democracy was reinstated following the death of dictator Francisco Franco in 1975.

Following the declaration, Rajoy had sacked Catalonia's government, dissolved its parliament and stripped the region of its treasured autonomy.

Puigdemont fled to Brussels to avoid arrest over charges linked to rebellion, sedition and misuse of public funds.

Other independence leaders, including Puigdemont's former deputy Oriol Junqueras, are behind Spanish bars pending trial.

Rajoy reiterated Friday that a vote to choose a new Catalan president would take place within 10 days after the new regional parliament reconvenes on January 17.

Puigdemont's advisors are currently looking into whether he can run in next month's ballot from abroad.

*Although the unionist Ciudadanos had the biggest share of the vote in the October ballot, three separatist groupings headed by Puigdemont retained their parliamentary majority.

The pro-independence parties have said they no longer plan to push for independence unilaterally and favour a negotiated settlement instead.*

Rajoy, however, has repeatedly ruled out holding talks with Puigdemont.

----------


## AZJoe

*The Czech Republic and Slovakia offer themselves as an example for Catalan independence
*
The prime ministers of the Czech Republic and Slovakia, Andrej Babi and Robert Fico, have said today at a joint event that the peaceful split of Czechoslovakia into two states could be an example for Spain as a way to solve the case of Catalan independence. ...

----------


## Swordsmyth

*Catalonia Elects Pro-Independence Speaker**Today, in a well-deserved slap in the face to prime minister Mariano Rajoy, Pro-Independence Groups Take Back Control of Catalonia's Parliament.*


 *Pro-independence parties took control of the Catalan  parliament on Wednesday in what they hailed as the first step towards  restoring the regional government after almost three months of direct  rule from Madrid.*
  Celebrations erupted among flag-waving supporters in Barcelona as  Roger Torrent, of the pro-independence Republican Left (ERC), was voted  head of the speaker’s committee, the chamber’s decision-making body.
*Addressing the chamber, Mr. Torrent denounced the legal proceedings against much of the pro-independence leadership.*  He said the imprisonment of three parliamentarians - including Oriol  Junqueras, the former vice president and ERC leader - was “absolutely  unjustified, and impedes them being able to freely exercise their  rights”.
*Opposition parties had tried to thwart the election of Mr. Torrent* with  a request - swiftly denied - that the parliament reject delegated votes  from the three jailed politicians, whose empty seats were marked with  yellow ribbons. Mr. Puigdemont and four former cabinet members in  self-imposed exile in Brussels dropped their attempts to vote via  delegates after Mariano Rajoy, the Spanish prime minister, warned he  would appeal such a move at the Constitutional Court.*Parliament Reconvenes Pro-Independence Groups Win*  The BBC reports Catalonia MPs Elect Separatist Speaker as Parliament Reconvenes.
 *Separatist lawmakers secured control of parliament on  Wednesday with the election of Mr. Torrent, a member of the left-wing  separatist ERC party. He beat an anti-independence candidate by 65 votes  to 56.*
  The session was broadcast to a flag-waving crowd outside.
*ERC's leader, Oriol Junqueras, is among three Catalan MPs in prison awaiting trial over the independence push.*  But they were allowed to vote to select a parliamentary speaker via  proxies. Five others in self-imposed exile in Belgium did not assign  proxies. Yellow ribbons were placed on their empty seats.
  The MPs also met to select a board who will decide who gets the first chance to form a government.* It will have two weeks to pick a president. It is likely to nominate Mr. Puigdemont to lead the region,* and his supporters say he could potentially do so via video link from Belgium.
  Mr Puigdemont's spokesman, Joan Maria Piqué, told the BBC's Gavin Lee that it was *perfectly plausible for him to be president remotely.* He pointed to how Donald Trump uses Twitter as a prime source of interaction in the US.
  But lawyers for the Catalan parliament council, an advisory body,  have said it would not be legal or within the Spanish constitution to  allow for a president in exile.*Silence* *Mainstream media, Mariano Rajoy, and the EU are silent.*
  The only news is from the BBC, the Financial Times, and The Telegraph.
*Real Vote* *The real vote was 70-56 as five in exile did not vote.*
  To the dismay of Rajoy, the non-aligned Comu-Podem sat the vote out.  Comu-Podem does not favor independence but they do favor an honest vote  on the matter.
_The people have spoken, again. I am quite pleased with this result._
  Catalonia Si!


More at: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...ndence-speaker

----------


## Swordsmyth

Spain's Interior Minister Jose Ignacio Zoido has a warning for  Carles Puigdemont: "don't try to sneak back into Barcelona, you will be caught."
  The ousted former Catalan leader and infamous separatist, Carles  Puigdemont who remains in self-imposed exile in Brussels and who was  again picked by the Catalan parliament to be its president,  may be tempted to cross into Spain "by helicopter, light aircraft or  boat" so that the regional parliament can reappoint him officially,  Zoido told broadcaster Antena 3 in an interview. The police have deployed specialist teams to monitor his movements and will catch him if he tries.

  "Justice will be done with Carles Puigdemont", Zoido told Antena 3 on  Tuesday morning, adding that the former First Minister had "fled" from  the courts. "He has gone to countries where they're not paying much  attention to him but where he can make a lot of noise."
  As a reminder, "making a lot of noise" in Europe, especially when it goes against the establishment, is frowned upon.
  Why the bizarre statement? Because, as Bloomberg notes, the Spanish media is abuzz with speculation that _"Puigdemont  might attempt a dramatic return for an investiture vote in the Catalan  parliament this month. He fled to Brussels in October after Prime  Minister Mariano Rajoy fired him for engineering a declaration of  independence from Spain and he faces arrest if he attempts to return."_
  Asked about the possibility that Puigdemont might try to sneak back  across the border to attempt another embarrassing media coup for the  Spanish government, Zoido replied that Spanish security forces were  vigilant and prepared, with Civil Guard and National Police experts  working on the problem.

More at: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...-back-boot-car

----------


## Swordsmyth

*Spanish Government Arrests Catalan-Based Critic Using "Hate-Speech Law"**Spain's government has gotten into the business of regulating speech with predictably awful results.* An early adopter of Blues Lives Matter-esque policies, Spain went full police state, passing a law making it a crime to show "disrespect" to law enforcement officers.
*The predictable result? The arrest of someone for calling cops "slackers" in a Facebook post.*
  Spain's government is either woefully unaware of the negative consequences of laws like this or, worse, _likes_  the negative consequences. After all, it doesn't hurt Spain's  government beyond a little reputational damage. It only hurts residents  of Spain.
_When you're already unpopular, thanks to laws like these and suppression of a Catalan independence vote,  what difference does it make if you're known better for shutting down  dissent than actually protecting citizens from hateful speech?_
  One Catalan resident is getting the full "hate speech" rap-and-ride.
 _A Catalan high school teacher, Manel Riu, appeared in court on  Thursday accused of hate speech for his tweets and Facebook posts  criticizing Spain, government members and the Guardia Civil police._ 
*Over a hundred people escorted him to court in Tremp,  west of Catalonia, where he denied any wrongdoing and asked for the  case’s dismissal.*
*As a Catalan, Riu certainly has reason to criticize the Spanish government.* During the last attempted referendum,  the Spanish government sent police to seize ballots, voters'  cellphones, and ordered Google to remove a voting location app from the  Play store. The evidence against Riu is composed of 119 tweets gathered  by the Guardia Civil, Spain's oldest law enforcement agency -- one that blurs the line between playing soldier and playing cop far more often than its US counterparts.



More at: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...ng-hate-speech

----------


## Swordsmyth

Former Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont faces arrest in Finland after  authorities there received an international warrant for his detention  issued by Spain, Reuters reported.

More at: https://worldview.stratfor.com/situa...catalan-leader

----------


## Pauls' Revere

> Former Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont faces arrest in Finland after  authorities there received an international warrant for his detention  issued by Spain, Reuters reported.
> 
> More at: https://worldview.stratfor.com/situa...catalan-leader



What about the others that left? I thought there were about 9 people? If my memory serves me right. Btw, thanks for these updates.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> What about the others that left? I thought there were about 9 people? If my memory serves me right. Btw, thanks for these updates.


I haven't seen anything about the others, it seems Puigdemont is getting special attention.
I thought he was still in Belgium so I don't know why they sent a warrant to Finland either.

----------


## Pauls' Revere

> I haven't seen anything about the others, it seems Puigdemont is getting special attention.
> I thought he was still in Belgium so I don't know why they sent a warrant to Finland either.


To limit his options on travel.

----------


## Pauls' Revere

*Puigdemont ARRESTED*

https://www.voanews.com/a/germany-ar...t/4315221.html

BARCELONA, SPAIN — 

Catalonia's ousted president Carles Puigdemont was arrested in Germany Sunday while crossing the border from Denmark, German police said.

Puigdemont's lawyer, Jaume Alonso-Cuevillas, confirmed the arrest on Twitter, adding that Puigdemont was traveling to Belgium, where he initially fled after an arrest warrant was issued against him for his role in an independence referendum in October.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> To limit his options on travel.


Why not all of Europe then?
Why just Finland?

----------


## Zippyjuan

https://www.thelocal.es/20180324/pro...e-leaders-held




> *Protests in Catalonia after independence leaders held*
> 
> 
> 
> Thousands of protesters descended on the streets of Catalonia late Friday after Spain's supreme court detained five separatist leaders for their role in last year's independence bid.
> 
> The court also issued international arrest warrants for six other Catalan figures who have fled abroad, including former regional president Carles Puigdemont.
> 
> Twenty-four protesters were lightly injured in clashes with police, emergency services said.
> ...


More at link.

----------


## Pauls' Revere

> Why not all of Europe then?
> Why just Finland?


guess each country has to issue one? I thought there was an international one as well. Mute point since he's arrested.

----------


## Firestarter

German police arrested Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont on Sunday morning on a European arrest warrant after he left Finland just days earlier on his way back to Belgium.

Puigdemonts lawyer, Jaume Alonso-Cuevillas, confirmed that German police stopped the former leader when he was crossing the border with Denmark. He said Puigdemont is at a police station.
The arrest came after the Spanish Supreme Court judge charged 13 Catalan separatist politicians with rebellion on Friday. The corrupt judge also ordered international arrest warrants for the 6 Catalan fugitives, including Puigdemont.

Puigdemont, who had escaped being imprisoned in Spain by fleeing to Belgium, had visited Finland since Thursday for talks with politicians. Finland confirmed on Saturday it had received a European arrest warrant for _a Spanish citizen visiting Finland_, but did not know the persons whereabouts.
Finnish MP Mikko Karna, one of Puigdemonts hosts in Finland, Tweeted on Saturday that _Puigdemont departed from Finland Friday evening by unknown means to Belgium_.

In Barcelona on Saturday, the Catalan parliament couldnt continue the debate on selecting Jordi Turull for regional president, after he was placed in police custody.
Its the third time that the parliament couldnt nominate a new president, after Puigdemont and Jordi Sanchez (who is also in jail) were forced to withdraw their candidacies: http://www.scmp.com/news/world/europ...inland-despite

----------


## Firestarter

There is a practical problem to get Carles Puigdemont (and the other pro-independence Catalan politicians) extradited.
It isn’t possible to have him extradited on a European Arrest Warrant for rebellion – which could be punished with up to 35 years in prison.

For this reason Spanish Supreme Court judge Pablo Llarena added misappropriation of public funds to the charges.
It’s possible to have Puigdemont extradited on misappropriation of public funds, corruption, but if that happens, legally he can’t be prosecuted for rebellion. This could be sentenced with a prison sentence from 2 to 6 years.

Some people claim that a highly publicised trial of Puigdemont could backfire on the Spanish government by galvanising the separatist movement: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/27/w...tradition.html

----------


## Swordsmyth

On April 6, a court in Schleswig-Holstein ruled that the Spanish  charge of “rebellion” did not constitute grounds to either hold  Puigdemont or extradite him to Spain. It should be noted that in  ordering Puigdemont freed on a usurious $90,000 bail, the German court  stipulated that Puigdemont’s extradition to Spain was only “suspended,”  not vacated. The court ruled that Spain’s charge that Puigdemont used  public funds to hold the Catalonian independence referendum could still  constitute a reason to extradite him to Spain. In addition, the German  court said it would consult with Spanish and federal German authorities  on this point.
  The German Foreign Ministry has cited the “independence” of the Spanish judiciary in the prosecution of Catalonian leaders. *Chancellor Angela Merkel stated that she hopes Puigdemont’s extradition to Spain “goes ahead.”*  It appears that some in Germany still treasure past German support for  the Francoist traditions of Spain’s court system and other anti-Catalan  and anti-Basque “instruments” of government in Madrid. Spain’s national  police force, the “Guardia Civil,” took lessons from Heinrich Himmler  and the Gestapo during and after the Spanish Civil War. The “Guardia,”  feared under Franco’s dictatorship, preserves many of the Nazi SS’s  basic surveillance traditions in its age-old battle against the  Catalonians and Basques. It is the “Guardia” upon whom the modern-day  Torquemada, Judge Llarena, relies upon to round up Catalonian leaders  for prosecution and imprisonment. Under the Hendaye Agreement of 1940  between Nazi Germany and Spain, German intelligence helped keep tabs on  members of the Spanish Republican government-in-exile, as well as  veterans of the International Brigades who fought for the Spanish  loyalists during the civil war. German Abwehr military intelligence  agents identified members and supporters of the Spanish, Catalonian, and  Basque governments-in-exile in places as far afield as Havana, Mexico  City, Montevideo, Bogota, Santiago, Panama City, Caracas, Buenos Aires,  Santo Domingo (then called Ciudad Trujillo), and New York City.
*When France fell to the Germans, the Gestapo scoured French  police files for information on Spanish expatriate residents in France  who supported the loyalist government.* These included many  Catalonians and Basques, some of whom had fled to France after the  brutal suppression of the Catalonian rebellion of 1934, as well as the  Basque government-in-exile in Paris. Franco’s intelligence service also  sent agents to Axis Power-occupied and neutral territory to “neutralize”  or arrest Catalonian and other dissidents. Spanish nationalist agents  fanned out to Rotterdam, Brussels, Antwerp, Paris, Lyons, Marseilles,  Toulouse, Zurich, and Geneva in search of Catalonian, Basque, and  Spanish enemies of Franco and his Falangist Party.
  Spanish Republican President Manuel Azaña, exile in France, was  arrested by the Vichy authorities after the Nazi occupation of France.  Azaña died while under arrest at the Montauban internment camp. Merkel  and her government, who support the arrest and extradition of  Puigdemont, have much in common, and not in a good way, with the Vichy  authorities who arrested Azaña.
*Instead of Franco and his spies, it is now Rajoy and CNI that sends agents out across Europe.*  In the case of Puigdemont’s delegation, these Spanish agents were  dispatched to Belgium, Finland, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, and  Germany to apprehend the Catalonian leadership. *Adolf Hitler  assisted Franco in tracking down enemies of the Madrid government.  Today, it is Merkel who is providing similar assistance to Rajoy.*


More at: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...-eerie-dismiss

----------


## Firestarter

Yesterday, more than 300,000 protesters on the streets of Barcelona demanded the release of the Catalan independence movement politicians that are locked up in prison.

The protesters carried Catalan flags, and walked behind a huge banner reading: _“__For rights and liberties, for democracy and unity, we want them back home!”_
Many in the crowd chanted: _"Freedom for the political prisoners"._


The rally was organised by the National Catalan Assembly and Omnium pro-independence groups, whose leaders, Jordi Sanchez and Jordi Cuixart, were arrested in Madrid 6 months ago. Sanchez and Cuixart may face up to 30 years in prison on rebellion charges.
Nine Catalan politicians are currently locked up awaiting trial for their role in declaring independence from Spain in October after 90% of the voters supported the move in a referendum.
Catalonia has been put under Madrid’s direct rule since, with the region’s new leader’s election being postponed repeatedly (now scheduled for May 22).

The German court has already decided that Carles Puigdemont can’t be extradited for rebellion. It still has to make the final decision if he is to be extradited to Spain for corruption (with a considerable lower maximum sentence): https://www.rt.com/news/424222-barce...dence-leaders/

----------


## Firestarter

At yesterday's cup final in Madrid, Barça fans weren't allowed to take yellow shirts or scarves into the stadium. Some had to take their clothes off from the waist up.
  According to Spain’s Police, yellow is threatening to Spanish Dictator Felipe VI, who attended the final between Sevilla and FC Barcelona.

  Journalist Jaume Clotet tweeted: 


> Yellow is the color used by the Catalan political prisoners campaign. Spain is becoming an authoritarian state where simple colors are being chased.


 https://brusselsobserver.com/catalan...panish-police/


  See the video.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> At yesterday's cup final in Madrid, Barça fans weren't allowed to take yellow shirts or scarves into the stadium. Some had to take their clothes off from the waist up.
>   According to Spain’s Police, yellow is threatening to Spanish Dictator Felipe VI, who attended the final between Sevilla and FC Barcelona.
> 
>   Journalist Jaume Clotet tweeted:  https://brusselsobserver.com/catalan...panish-police/
> 
> 
>   According to the Spaniard, that posted this video, the footage is from a debate on Spanish TV with guests against independence of Catalonia…
>   Starting at 6:12.

----------


## Pauls' Revere

https://www.thelocal.es/20180413/a-n...t-marta-rovira

Catalan separatist* Marta Rovira*, who fled Spain last month to escape charges over the region's breakaway bid, said in an interview published Thursday she planned to settle in Switzerland for good. 

_ Rovira, who is the deputy leader of the leftwing separatist ERC party, is one of seven pro-independence leaders who have fled abroad to avoid facing serious charges over their role in Catalonia's independence push in October 2017._

Nine others, including *ERC president Oriol Junqueras*, are in prison.   

Catalonia's pro-independence presidential candidate *Jordi Sanchez* also remains in jail, after Spain's Supreme Court on Thursday rejected a request for him to be released and sworn in as regional head.


Not a fan of the left wing slant to this separatist movement but it is self-determination nonetheless.

----------


## TheTexan

> arrested ... for his role in an independence referendum in October.


I guess he forgot to ask for permission first?

----------


## Pauls' Revere

Meanwhile in The Basque Country: https://www.thelocal.es/20180422/spa...in-basque-city

Thousands of protesters took to the streets of Bilbao in northern Spain on Saturday, urging better conditions for jailed members or collaborators of ETA just weeks before the Basque separatist group is due to disband.

----------


## Pauls' Revere

Meanwhile in The Basque Country: https://www.thelocal.es/20180422/spa...in-basque-city

Thousands of protesters took to the streets of Bilbao in northern Spain on Saturday, urging better conditions for jailed members or collaborators of ETA just weeks before the Basque separatist group is due to disband.

----------


## TheTexan

> urging better conditions for jailed members


Perhaps they should start a petition, and/or write strongly worded letters to their captors.

----------


## Pauls' Revere

> I guess he forgot to ask for permission first?


seems what Calexit is trying to do? peaceful secession? didn't work so well for the Southern States.

----------


## Swordsmyth

The Catalan parliament, ending months of uncertainty, on May 14  appointed Quim Torra, a fervent supporter of independence from Spain, as  the regional president. Meanwhile, the Spanish central government will  soon end its direct control of the Catalan government. Both events will  lead to some degree of normalization in the region after months of  direct Spanish government control. But they will also open the door for  another round of confrontation between the region and the central  government.

After several unsuccessful attempts to appoint leaders who were either  abroad or in prison, the pro-independence forces elected Torra, the  leader of a hard-line nongovernmental organization that supports  secession. On May 11 Torra promised to start the process of creating the  constitution for an independent Catalan republic and to keep the  Catalan citizens "mobilized" in support of independence.

More at: https://worldview.stratfor.com/artic...-cautious-path

----------


## Pauls' Revere

https://www.thelocal.es/20180511/wha...nally-in-sight
 If Torra is appointed president and forms a regional government, Madrid will lift the direct rule it imposed on October 27th when the majority separatist parliament declared independence. It accordance with article 155 of the Constitution, _it was designed to rein in rebel regions.
_
On Friday, *Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy implied that article 155 could be re-used.

"It's a procedure that will be there in the future if necessary," he warned.*

 Puigdemont, meanwhile, wants to create "a Republican council that will be able to express itself freely" from abroad, composed of himself and other allies who are also in self-exile.

The former Catalan leader insists the situation is "temporary," implying that Torra may one day make way for him.   

"We will see whether Quim Torra, once he is in place, will see himself as a provisional president or whether he will develop a taste for the post," says Oriol Bartomeus, a politics professor at the Autonomous University of Barcelona.

Bartomeus points out that Puigdemont himself was elected Catalan president in January 2016 "to keep (his predecessor) Artur Mas's seat warm."   

The CUP had refused to re-appoint Mas as Catalan president, leading to Puigdemont's designation, but Mas had always thought -- wrongly as it turns out -- he would come back.

Legal woes

Puigdemont is currently in Berlin where he is waiting for a German court to rule on an extradition demand from Spain, which has charged him with "rebellion," a crime that carries up to 30 years in jail.

The German court has rejected extraditing him on that charge, but is still deliberating whether to send him back on the lesser charge of misuse of public funds.

Madrid, meanwhile, is contemplating appealing to European courts if it doesn't get its way.

*If he avoids extradition, Puigdemont will have to choose between remaining in self-exile or returning to Spain where he would be jailed.*


We'll see, sounds like round three of more of the same until they elect a leader that they can't make charges stick too? I would guess that at some point perhaps the Catalans in favor of independence are going to run out of patience. I want to see what Torra is going to do to make this a now or never issue.

----------


## Swordsmyth

Spain's Socialists, the country's largest opposition party, filed a  no-confidence motion against Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy after judges  ruled that his Popular Party benefited from illegal funds, Deutsche  Welle reported May 25. Rajoy has also been criticized for how he handled  the dispute with Catalonia. 

More at: https://worldview.stratfor.com/situa...-no-confidence

----------


## Firestarter

> More at: https://worldview.stratfor.com/situa...-no-confidence


 I don't want to complain about your posts; you post a massive amount of good information (I have some problems just keeping up)...
But the stratfor.com articles that you sometimes post are a little too short on information for my taste.


Wasn’t Carles Puigdemont accused of “corruption” to have him extradited from Germany?!?

On 25 May, Spain's largest opposition party, the Socialists, filed a no-confidence motion against PM Mariano Rajoy after the Court on Thursday ruled  that his Popular Party (PP) benefited from illegal funds. 
The judges sentenced 29 businesspeople and PP officials in the Gurtel corruption trial to a combined total of 351 years in jail for fraud, tax evasion and money laundering among others. The PP benefited from illegally obtained funds and got fined €245,000 ($290,000).

The judges said the credibility of Rajoy "_should be questioned_": 


> (His) testimony does not appear as plausible enough to refute the strong evidence showing the existence of a slush fund in the party.




It was the first time that a ruling party in Spain had been found guilty in court and the PP will appeal.
Rajoy dismissed the no-confidence vote as "nonsense" in a press conference on Friday and said it is "_against stability in Spain_". Rajoy won’t step down and is committed to seeing out his term until 2020.

Friday's no-confidence vote will need the support of 176 MPs in Spain's 350-strong lower house of parliament to succeed. It would need the support of the “left” Podemos (We can) party as well as the “right” Ciudadanos (Citizens).
In a tweet on Friday, the Podemos party's Madrid branch wrote: 


> We support the censure motion.




The Ciudadanos party have backed Rajoy's minority government and are unlikely to support Rajoy's ouster. Secretary General Jose Manuel Villegas said in a press conference: 


> The motion presented by Sanchez, with what we imagine is the support of populists and separatists, is not Ciudadanos' motion. We will oppose this motion and ask that Spaniards be given their say and that elections be called.


 http://www.dw.com/en/spanish-premier...nds/a-43928752

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## Swordsmyth

> I don't want to complain about your posts; you post a massive amount of good information (I have some problems just keeping up)...
> But the stratfor.com articles that you sometimes post are a little too short on information for my taste.
> 
> 
> Wasn’t Carles Puigdemont accused of “corruption” to have him extradited from Germany?!?
> 
> On 25 May, Spain's largest opposition party, the Socialists, filed a no-confidence motion against PM Mariano Rajoy after the Court on Thursday ruled  that his Popular Party (PP) benefited from illegal funds. 
> The judges sentenced 29 businesspeople and PP officials in the Gurtel corruption trial to a combined total of 351 years in jail for fraud, tax evasion and money laundering among others. The PP benefited from illegally obtained funds and got fined €245,000 ($290,000).
> 
> ...


Stratfor's "situation reports" are often minimalist, I usually only cite them when I don't see the story elsewhere, thanks for digging up more details.

----------


## Swordsmyth

Mariano Rajoy became prime minister of Spain on December 20, 2011 and  barring some miracle, his political career will end on June 1, 2018,  because moments ago it appears that the required number of votes to  ouster the premier in tomorrow's vote of no-confidence was reached.
  As we reported earlier, Socialist leader Pedro Sanchez who is  spearheading the vote against the unpopular premier, already had the  backing of the anti-establishment group Podemos, and Catalan separatists  Esquerra Republicana and PdeCat. He only needed the support of Basque  Nationalists to clinch it.
  Moments ago the Basques officially sided with Sanchez, when the  Basque Nationalists informed both Rajoy’s People’s Party and the  Socialists that they’ve decided to vote against the prime minister,  according to state broadcaster Television Espanola. With the Catalans of  PdeCat also expected to support Sanchez, that would be enough to defeat  Rajoy, as there are now 177 votes against Rajoy with 176 needed.

  Being the decisive vote against Rajoy must be a welcome revenge for  the various Basque and Catalan separatist groups following the  unprecedented crackdown that Rajoy unleashed against the various parties  last fall when in the aftermath of the Catalan referendum, Spain  cracked down on all separatists in the region.


Update: Spanish Prime Minister Rajoy refuses to resign ahead of  tomorrow's 'done deal' vote of no confidence in his administration  (given that the opposition apparently has the votes) and Maria Cospedal  has confirmed that centre-left Socialist party leader Pedro Sanchez is  set to become the new Spanish prime minister.
 “Are you ready to resign? Resign today and leave by your own will,” Sanchez told Rajoy. *“You are part of the past, of a chapter the country is about to close.”**  *  *

More at: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...new-government

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## Swordsmyth

> Mariano Rajoy became prime minister of Spain on December 20, 2011 and  barring some miracle, his political career will end on June 1, 2018,  because moments ago it appears that the required number of votes to  ouster the premier in tomorrow's vote of no-confidence was reached.
>   As we reported earlier, Socialist leader Pedro Sanchez who is  spearheading the vote against the unpopular premier, already had the  backing of the anti-establishment group Podemos, and Catalan separatists  Esquerra Republicana and PdeCat. He only needed the support of Basque  Nationalists to clinch it.
>   Moments ago the Basques officially sided with Sanchez, when the  Basque Nationalists informed both Rajoy’s People’s Party and the  Socialists that they’ve decided to vote against the prime minister,  according to state broadcaster Television Espanola. With the Catalans of  PdeCat also expected to support Sanchez, that would be enough to defeat  Rajoy, as there are now 177 votes against Rajoy with 176 needed.
> 
>   Being the decisive vote against Rajoy must be a welcome revenge for  the various Basque and Catalan separatist groups following the  unprecedented crackdown that Rajoy unleashed against the various parties  last fall when in the aftermath of the Catalan referendum, Spain  cracked down on all separatists in the region.
> 
> 
> Update: Spanish Prime Minister Rajoy refuses to resign ahead of  tomorrow's 'done deal' vote of no confidence in his administration  (given that the opposition apparently has the votes) and Maria Cospedal  has confirmed that centre-left Socialist party leader Pedro Sanchez is  set to become the new Spanish prime minister. “Are you ready to resign? Resign today and leave by your own will,” Sanchez told Rajoy. *“You are part of the past, of a chapter the country is about to close.”**  *  *
> 
> More at: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...new-government


He should have let them go.

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## goldenequity

Rajoy gone. Stepped down before final vote of no confidence.

Socialist's party leader *Pedro Sanchez confirmed as new Spanish PM* after winning Parliament vote to succeed Rajoy

----------


## Firestarter

> Stratfor's "situation reports" are often minimalist, I usually only cite them when I don't see the story elsewhere, thanks for digging up more details.


 It looks like we agree (on Stratfor). Please keep up the good work!


Today, Mariano Rajoy was ousted as Spain’s Prime Minister after the parliament voted that it has no confidence in his government. Pedro Sanchez got 180 votes against 169 and is expected to become the new PM this weekend.

Rajoy knew that the numbers were against him, and said ahead of the vote: 


> Pedro Sánchez will be the prime minister of the government and I want to be the first to congratulate him.


After Sanchez had won the vote, he said: 


> Today, democracy has won. A new era in Spanish politics is beginning. I am reaching out to all the parliamentary groups to open these new times and I hope that we are all up to the responsibilities that we have ahead of us.


The government, for which Rajoy acted as front man, had been a minority government since the general election in 2016. 

Sánchez’s party holds only 84 of the 350 seats in Parliament. Sanchez’s “Socialist” PSOE Party was backed in the no confidence vote by Podemos and a variety of small regional parties.
In 2017, Sánchez was unexpectedly re-chosen as leader of his Socialist party, 7 months after he himself was ousted in a party revolt.

It’s possible that new general election will be decided upon by King Felipe shortly. 
The Spanish stock market rose on Friday, alongside other European markets, which were also happy about the news of Thursday’s government agreement in Italy: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/01/w...onfidence.html


It’s doubtful however if this will change anything besides the name of Spain’s Prime Minister.
Maybe King Felipe VI simply decided that a new PM is needed to pacify his population…

----------


## Pauls' Revere

PM Rajoy is out, and Sanchez is the new PM of Spain. Torra also has been sworn in as Barcelona's new president. He wants talks with Sanchez. Wonder what becomes of the prisoners from the last attempt to secede?

https://www.thelocal.es/20180602/cat...-spains-new-pm

_ Spain's central government last month recognised the powers of newly-elected Catalan president Torra but refused to ratify his first choice of councillors because four of them face charges linked to the failed independence drive. The Spanish government called their nomination "a new provocation".

Earlier this week, Torra nominated a new administration which did not include them, prompting Madrid to give its green light. The 55-year-old former editor has been under pressure from some segments of 
his own separatist camp to adopt a more conciliatory stance, in order to allow a new Catalan government to take office and end Madrid's direct rule.

Torra was chosen by Puigdemont to be Catalonia's next leader after separatist parties kept their absolute majority in regional elections in December._

----------


## Swordsmyth

Nationalists regained control of Catalonia's government on June 2 and  immediately said they would seek independence for the region, Reuters  reported. The pledge posed a challenge to new Spanish Prime Minister  Pedro Sanchez, who took office about an hour earlier.

More at: https://worldview.stratfor.com/situa...enge-new-prime

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## Pauls' Revere

Spain's central government last month recognised the powers of newly-elected Catalan president Torra but refused to ratify his first choice of councillors because four of them face charges linked to the failed independence drive. *The Spanish government called their nomination "a new provocation".*

We'll see just how friendly these two are to one another.

----------


## Swordsmyth

*The political situation in Spain has been complicated for  nearly two years now as Rajoy governed with a very weak, cartel-style  coalition.*  It was cobbled together under duress and pressure  from the European Union to not allow anti-austerity party, Podemos to  take power and prevent Catalan independence.
  That was Friday.  Today the new government in Catalonia was sworn in  and it looks to be just as set on seceding from Spain as the last one  was.  The difference now is that EU-firster, Rajoy, is no longer in  power.
  The leader of the Socialist party, Pedro Sanchez, has vowed to  discuss Catalonia’s situation “government to government” which is a  radical change from Rajoy’s refusal to even countenance a dialog with  former Catalan leader Carles Puidgemont, who is in Germany out on bond  after being arrested by German authorities at Rajoy’s request.

Spain’s Socialists are trying to put together a weak, minority government which thumbs its nose at Podemos after using its support to get rid of Rajoy and take power.  
*Sanchez is trying to go it alone with support of around 20%  of Spanish voters in putting together a cabinet.  He’s doing this to  keep Brussels from lashing out at involving Podemos in the mix who will  push to undo fiscal austerity policies demanded by the Troika — EU, ECB  and IMF.*
  But, it’s also obvious he’s willing to repay the separatists for  their support.  And in this way keep everyone honest.  Brussels can’t  push him too hard because he’ll simply allow the Catalans to go forth  with their independence drive again this fall while also throwing  domestic opponents a bone by loosening austerity policies.


*If Sanchez forms a government he has an automatic ally in the  new leadership in Italy.  And together they can truly put the screws to  Brussels in a way that they haven’t been able to previously.*
  It will take convincing Podemos’ leaders that the goal is to break  Brussels’ hold on Spanish finances and to be patient.  I don’t know  enough to know that this can work, but tactically, this is the right  path.
*The new Catalan Prime Minister, Quim Torra, has already put an October 1st independence referendum on the table.  So the clock has begun ticking again.*   Because if an independence-friendly government in Madrid holds serve  over the next four months, the entire board state, as we gamers call it,  changes completely.
  *  *  *

More at: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...s-around-spain

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## Swordsmyth

The Spanish government has authorized the transfer of six secessionist  leaders from prisons in Madrid to prisons in Catalonia, El Pais reported  July 3.

More at: https://worldview.stratfor.com/situa...atalan-prisons

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## Pauls' Revere

> The Spanish government has authorized the transfer of six secessionist  leaders from prisons in Madrid to prisons in Catalonia, El Pais reported  July 3.
> 
> More at: https://worldview.stratfor.com/situa...atalan-prisons


Thank you for the follow up on this story.

+rep (I.O.U.)

----------


## Firestarter

There are 9 jailed Catalan leaders altogether and by now they've all been moved to prisons closer to home.
Last week, their defence lawyers demanded their release, after judges in Germany ruled that charges of rebellion against Carles Puigdemont were unacceptable: https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/07/13...9.html?rel=mas


Yesterday Judge Llarena withdrew the European Arrest Warrants (again), not just for Puigdemont, but for all the exiled politicians.

Lawyers for the “rebels” still held in Spanish jail argue that it strengthens their case that accusations of rebellion have been rejected by the European courts.
Judge Llarena says that the ruling in Germany is all the more reason to keep the 9 accused in prison, because they might try to flee the country to avoid charges: https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/07/19...#1532071127177

----------


## Firestarter

Earlier this month, almost 5 months after he replaced Carles Puigdemont as regional head, Catalan leader Quim Torra again called on the central government in Madrid to agree to a referendum on independence. Of course on 1 October, Catalonia already voted for independence in a referendum that was banned by Felipe’s government.
Torra said: 


> The Oct. 1 mandate is in force and we are working to bring it into effect;
> only an agreed, binding and internationally recognized referendum on self-determination can renew that mandate.


King Felipe’s Prime minister, Pedro Sanchez that took over that role from Mariano Rajoy (after several corruption scandals involving the Spanish Royal family and Rajoy’s party) in June, ruled out a referendum on independence.
Sanchez proposed a referendum on greater Catalan autonomy instead: https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2018...catalonia.html


Yesterday, Quim Torra rejected anything other than a full independence referendum: 


> If the Spanish government doesn’t see this as a negotiable position then we will press ahead because we have a democratic mandate.


Hundreds of thousands of Catalan secessionists are expected to take the streets in Barcelona on September 11 to mark a regional holiday, which could become a mass protest for independence from Spain. 

Torra has also repeated demands that charges are dropped against 9 separatist leaders for their role in last year’s banned referendum and the subsequent declaration of independence: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-s...-idUSKCN1LP0BG

----------


## goldenequity

> Earlier this month, almost 5 months after he replaced Carles Puigdemont as regional head, Catalan leader Quim Torra again called on the central government in Madrid to agree to a referendum on independence. Of course on 1 October, Catalonia already voted for independence in a referendum that was banned by Felipe’s government.
> Torra said: 
> 
> King Felipe’s Prime minister, Pedro Sanchez that took over that role from Mariano Rajoy (after several corruption scandals involving the Spanish Royal family and Rajoy’s party) in June, ruled out a referendum on independence.
> Sanchez proposed a referendum on greater Catalan autonomy instead: https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2018...catalonia.html
> 
> 
> Yesterday, Quim Torra rejected anything other than a full independence referendum: 
> Hundreds of thousands of Catalan secessionists are expected to take the streets in Barcelona on September 11 to mark a regional holiday, which could become a mass protest for independence from Spain. 
> ...


Tomorrow might be krazeee town in Barcelona.. will be watching. thnx 4 the update.

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## goldenequity

many gathered... all peaceful.
=======

meanwhile...

----------


## Pauls' Revere

350K ppl protest in Barcelona.

https://www.thelocal.es/20191027/350...-freedom-rally

"There are different ways of protesting but we have one objective: independence."
But Catalans remain sharply divided over the question of separating from Spain, with polls showing 44 percent in favour and 48.3 percent against. 
Speaking to reporters at the rally, Catalonia's separatist president Quim Torra said his government was with the people "because it is what they want. We will go as far as they want".
He had earlier pledged to push ahead with the controversial independence drive after meeting 800 local mayors who expressed support for secession.
"The show of unity we've seen this week shows the next step that we all must follow...* We must all push ahead and exercise the right to self-determination."*
Torra has made repeated appeals for dialogue with the Socialist government of Pedro Sanchez with the aim of securing Madrid's agreement for a referendum on independence, but they have fallen on deaf ears.

----------


## Swordsmyth

Several thousand demonstrators banged on kitchen pots and chanted  "Catalonia has no king!" on Monday in protest against a visit by the  Spanish royal family to the capital of the region that has been hit by  weeks of separatist protests.Attended by King Felipe, his wife  Queen Letizia and two daughters, the venue of the Princess of Girona  young talent awards ceremony in Barcelona was heavily guarded by police  who had installed heavy fences and blocked vans one of the city's main  thoroughfares with vans.
Some protesters burned pictures of the king.
Waving  Catalan independence flags, some of the demonstrators yelled abuse at  attendees as they tried to reach a police checkpoint, pushing at least  one of them, and forcing a few to turn back and try to find another  entrance, a Reuters reporter said.
Dolors Aguilera, 70, said the king's presence in Barcelona was a provocation.
"We  have political prisoners in jail. We cannot accept it," she said  referring to nine separatist leaders sentenced on Oct. 14 to long jail  terms for their role in Catalonia's failed independence bid in 2017.

More at: https://news.yahoo.com/spanish-king-...173735901.html

----------


## Swordsmyth

A mixed opinion issued Tuesday from an adviser to the European  Union’s top court gives some grounds to celebrate for both separatists  in the Catalonia region as well as the national government in Madrid.An  adviser to the EU Court of Justice agreed with Catalan separatists that  one of its jailed leaders, Oriol Junqueras, is a member of the European  Parliament -- something that Spain disputes. But Catalan separatists  were hoping the adviser would issue a clear-cut argument that as a  member of the European Parliament, Junqueras is granted immunity from a  jail sentence in Spain.
That’s less clear and should ultimately  probably be decided by the European Parliament, Advocate General Maciej  Szpunar of the Luxembourg-based court said in his non-binding opinion on  Tuesday. The lack of clarity raises the stakes for the Court’s  decision, which is expected within around six months. While opinions  from the advocates general aren’t binding, the EU court follows them in a  majority of cases.
Madrid is likely to welcome the fact that the  adviser didn’t issue a straightforward opinion on whether Junqueras has  immunity. Spain argues that he has no immunity because he wasn’t able to  assume his role as a member of the EU Parliament. Junqueras should  remain in jail, Spain says, after a Spanish court sentenced him to 13  years for his role organizing an illegal referendum on Catalonia’s  independence in 2017.
The opinion is sure to rekindle the fury  among Catalan separatists over the Spanish court decision to send  Junqueras and other pro-independence leaders to jail. Initial anger lead  to violent protests last month in Barcelona and elsewhere in the  Catalonia region. Sporadic protests have continued since then.
Spain  must “refrain from any measure which might obstruct the necessary  steps” of a member of the EU Parliament to take up his duties, Advocate  General Szpunar said. There’s nothing in EU law that makes a member’s  start of his or her mandate dependent on them attending the European  Parliament’s inaugural session, according to the opinion. Junqueras  missed that as he was detained pending trial in Spain for his role in  the illegal referendum.

More at: https://news.yahoo.com/spain-t-thwar...092754678.html

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## Swordsmyth

Spain was thrown into turmoil on Thursday by court rulings that could  undermine Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez’s hopes of forming a new  government and force fresh elections in the region of Catalonia.

In a potentially stinging reversal for Spanish justice authorities,  the European Union’s top court ruled that a former Catalán official  serving a prison sentence for his role in a banned independence  referendum two years ago had the right to parliamentary immunity when he  was on trial.
A court in Spain, meanwhile, found that Catalonia’s  current president, Quim Torra, is unfit to hold office for 18 months  for disobeying the country’s electoral board, a decision likely to lead  to more elections in a region riven by protests.
Pro-separatist  Catalán politicians applauded and shouted “freedom” after the  Luxembourg-based European Court of Justice ruled that former Catalán  regional Vice-President Oriol Junqueras had earned the right to immunity  when he was elected to the European Parliament in May. 
The ECJ  said that people like Junqueras who are elected as EU lawmakers “enjoy,  from the moment the results are declared, the immunity” to travel to and  take part in parliamentary sessions.
After the verdict,  Junqueras, 50, tweeted: “Justice has come from Europe. Our rights and  those of 2,000,000 citizens who voted for us have been violated.  Annulment of the sentence and freedom for all! Persist as we have done!”
Junqueras  was sentenced in October to 13 years in prison for sedition. Eleven of  his associates were found guilty and eight of them also received prison  terms.
He was in pretrial detention when he was declared to have  won the European Parliament seat. But Spain’s Supreme Court refused to  allow him to leave prison to take an oath to respect the Spanish  Constitution, a national requirement for politicians to serve as EU  lawmakers
The Spanish electoral commission later declared Junqueras' seat vacant and suspended his parliamentary prerogatives.
The  ECJ made no criticism of his trial, and it's unclear if the court's  ruling might secure his release. However, it could seriously complicate  the efforts of Spain’s ruling Socialist party to form a new government  following an inconclusive election last month. 
The Socialists won  the most seats but not a majority. They're now stuck in tortuous talks  with Junqueras’ Catalán Republican Left party, hoping the party's  representatives in the national parliament will not vote against  Sánchez's government and let the Socialists hold onto office, albeit  with a minority.
With the court ruling in Junqueras’ favor, the  Catalán Republican Left could feel emboldened to press its demand for  Catalonia’s right to self-determination to be recognized, something  Spain doesn’t even remotely contemplate. 
Spain's Supreme Court  said it would study the full ruling and gave prosecutors and defense  lawyers five days to present their arguments, after which a decision  will be made.


The case is likely to set an important precedent for fugitive former  Catalán leader Carles Puigdemont, who was also elected to the European  Parliament in May and has been living in exile in Belgium. Spain wants  him extradited on charges of sedition and embezzlement.
Puigdemont  has also launched an appeal at the ECJ. A court in Brussels ruled  earlier this week that it would await the outcome of his European case  before deciding whether to extradite him.
At his residence outside  Brussels on Thursday, Puigdemont and former Catalán health minister  Toni Comín cheered and applauded the verdict along with other regional  politicians joining them by teleconference.
“If we can be at the  European Parliament, and we will be, it is because we were able to fight  for our rights from an independent space, with legal guarantees, which  is something that doesn’t happen in the Spanish state,” Puigdemont said.
The  verdict in the Spanish case against current Catalán leader Torra came  after clashes between riot police and protesters during a soccer match  between Barcelona and Real Madrid as authorities struggled to keep  separatist activists from disrupting the game. 
Torra was banned  from holding office for disobeying Spain’s electoral board by not  removing secessionist symbols from public buildings in the northeastern  region during an election campaign.
Torra, who is fervently in  favor of independence and Catalonia's right to self-determination, told  the court he did not believe the electoral board had the right to order  him to remove the symbols.
Torra said his lawyers would appeal but  added in a statement that he has “zero confidence” in Spain's legal  system, saying the ruling against him was politically motivated and  aimed at the “repression” of Catalonia’s desire for independence.

More at: https://hosted.ap.org/citizensvoice/...mmunity-rights

----------


## Swordsmyth

Spain’s state attorney on Monday recommended the  release of Catalan separatist leader Oriol Junqueras from prison in what  was widely seen as a gesture of political goodwill as the Socialist  Party seeks support to form a government. The state attorney’s office asked the Supreme Court  to let Junqueras go to Brussels to take his seat as a European member  of parliament. He was sentenced in October to 13 years in prison over  his role in a failed 2017 bid for Catalan independence. 
 The European Union’s top court said this month that  Junqueras was entitled to immunity as an EU lawmaker. The Spanish  Supreme Court is expected to give a ruling in coming weeks. 
 The state attorney’s opinion was widely anticipated  as the Socialists have been trying to persuade Junqueras’ party,  Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya (ERC), to back a Socialist-led  government by abstaining in a parliamentary vote to confirm acting Prime  Minister Pedro Sanchez as premier.


ERC’s parliamentary spokeswoman Marta Vilalta said  it considered the negotiations with the Socialists as an “opportunity  for Catalan separatism,” but any decision on facilitating Sanchez’s  confirmation will depend on the party’s governing body which is  scheduled to meet on Jan. 2.
 “It is time to put in the hands of the (ERC)  National Council the decision on whether the proposal we have received  is enough for us to abstain in the investiture vote,” she added.
 The Spanish attorney also asked the European  Parliament to strip Junqueras of immunity so that the case against him  would not be completely dropped, but this would require a  difficult-to-achieve majority among the 700-odd MEPs.
 Junqueras was elected to the European Parliament in May while he was in jail awaiting the verdict in his case. 
 “This is not a gesture, but the fulfilment of legal  requirements coming from European justice,” ERC’s Vilalta told  reporters. “We are convinced that Spanish justice will abide by the  ruling of the European Court of Justice.”

More at: https://yournews.com/2019/12/30/1379...atalan-leader/

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## Warlord

Maybe Spain will quit the EU like the UK and no longer be subject to the EU court.

----------


## Swordsmyth

> Maybe Spain will quit the EU like the UK and no longer be subject to the EU court.


Not unless the new VOX party grows much bigger.

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## Pauls' Revere

> Maybe Spain will quit the EU like the UK and no longer be subject to the EU court.


Gawd I hope!

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## Warlord

There was an opinion poll in Poland and it showed a majority wanted to leave the EU.  The whole Empire is collapsing.

----------


## Swordsmyth

The arrest warrant targeting Carles Puigdemont has been suspended by  Belgian judicial authorities because of the Catalan separatist leader's  immunity as a European lawmaker, his lawyer said Thursday.Paul  Bekaert told The Associated Press that the Belgian judge in charge of  the case also suspended the warrant issued against former Catalan  cabinet member Toni Comin.
The two are wanted in Spain for their  role in an illegal 2017 secession bid by the Catalan government and  separatist lawmakers. They fled to Belgium after the attempt failed and  were elected to the European Parliament in May as representatives of  Catalan separatist parties from Spain.
Last month the European  Union’s top court, the European Court of Justice, overturned a decision  preventing Puigdemont and Comin from taking their European Parliament  seats. Spain's state prosecutors' office, however, asked a Spanish judge  to maintain the international arrest warrants for the pair.
It  was still not clear whether Puigdemont and Comin, whose extradition  hearing had already been postponed to Feb. 3, will be allowed to take  their seats.
“The investigative judge has decided to suspend the  procedure of the European warrant following the decision of the European  Court of Justice,” Bekaert said. “The European Court has ruled they  have immunity."
Belgium's federal prosecutor's office did not immediately answer a request for comment.
“Belgian  justice recognizes our immunity and decides to suspend the arrest and  extradition warrant!" Puigdemont said in a message posted on Twitter.  “But now we are still waiting for the release of (Oriol Junqueras), who  has the same immunity as us. Spain must act in the same way as Belgium  has done and respect the law."

More at: https://news.yahoo.com/belgian-judge...134003446.html

----------


## Swordsmyth

Spain's electoral board on Friday ordered the pro-independence  president of Catalonia's government be stripped of his regional lawmaker  role, in a move that may complicate efforts to end a prolonged national  political deadlock.The board issued its ruling that Quim Torra  lose his legislator's job on the eve of a possible turning point in the  country's bid to re-establish stable government following its worst  political furore in decades.
On Saturday parliament holds a vote  in which Socialist leader Pedro Sanchez is relying on the abstention of  Catalan separatists Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya (ERC) -- a  political ally of Torra -- to confirm him as Prime Minister.
The  ERC, which governs Catalonia as part of a coalition with Torra's Junts  per Catalunya party, signaled discontent with the board's ruling, a  sentiment that could cast a shadow over Sanchez's prospects of  confirmation.
Senior ERC lawmaker Gabriel Rufian described the  decision as a "coup d'etat" on Twitter, while fellow ERC top official  Pere Aragones referred to it as "abhorrent," confirming his support for  Torra.
A parliamentary source also said the board has decided to  block ERC's jailed leader Oriol Junqueras from taking up his position as  a member of the European Parliament.
The ERC called a meeting of  its executive board for Saturday to evaluate the political consequences  of the ruling on Torra, which follows Torra's sentencing by Catalonia's  highest court to an 18-month ban from public office over his refusal to  remove separatist symbols from government buildings.
Torra has appealed against the court's ruling, meaning it could take months for the ban to come into force, if it is upheld.
Speaking  outside the seat of the Catalan government in Barcelona, Torra  condemned the board's decision and described the rulings against himself  and Junqueras as an "extremely serious attack."
Torra's lawyer was not immediately available for comment and it is unclear if he can appeal against the board's ruling.

More at: https://news.yahoo.com/spains-electo...211944185.html

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## Swordsmyth

Catalan separatist leaders Carles Puigdemont and Antoni Comin took  their seats in the European Parliament on Monday, vowing to force their  secessionist cause onto Europe's agenda just days after Spain repeated  its call for their arrest.The two politicians, both of whom live  in self-imposed exile in Belgium, have long been sought by Madrid over  their role in defying Spanish courts to hold a 2017 referendum on  independence and the short-lived secession declaration that followed.
"This  is a historic day for us," Puigdemont told reporters outside the  European Parliament in the French city of Strasbourg, flanked by  cheering supporters as he prepared to head into his first parliamentary  session.
"We are here to remind people that the Catalan crisis is not an internal matter, it is a European one."


Puigdemont and Comin were elected as European parliamentarians (MEPs)  last May but were unable to return to Spain to take oaths and collect  credentials for fear of arrest.
However, their status shifted last  month when the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) ruled that  another separatist leader Oriol Junqueras, also elected an MEP in May,  was entitled to immunity.
Junqueras, who remained in Spain, was sentenced to 13 years' prison in October over his role in Catalonia's 2017 breakaway bid.
After  Spain's Supreme Court ruled last week that the sentencing barred him  from immunity as an MEP, the European Parliament on Friday revoked his  mandate.
Puigdemont called for Junqueras to be allowed to carry out the mandate he had been handed by voters.
"If the European Union was really a union of rights and freedoms, Oriol Junqueras would be here today," he said.
Spain's  Supreme Court called on Friday for the European Parliament to strip  Puigdemont and Comin of their immunity, reiterating that the pair should  be handed over to Spanish authorities based on their European arrest  warrants.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/catalan-s...154142866.html

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## Swordsmyth

Catalonia's parliament stripped the head of the region's  pro-independence government of his rights as a regional lawmaker on  Monday, angering supporters who scuffled with police outside the  assembly.The parliament's speaker, Roger Torrent, said the  assembly in Barcelona had to comply with a Spanish court ruling against  regional leader Quim Torra to ensure future votes are not deemed  invalid, but said he would seek ways to overturn the decision.
Torra  will now be unable to vote in parliament but will remain head of the  Catalan government, despite opposition parties' demands that he be  removed from the post, Torrent said.

More at: https://news.yahoo.com/catalan-leade...194045446.html

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## Swordsmyth

Catalonia’s separatist President Joaquim Torra said he will call  early elections, adding a fresh element of instability to Spain’s  national political scene by bringing his two-year-old administration to  an end.The Catalan legislature has reached the end of the road  because unity between pro-independence parties has broken down, Torra  said in a televised speech Wednesday. The vote will come after Catalan  legislators pass a budget, he said.
Torra’s decision to call  elections brings a fresh headache for Sanchez, who is reliant on support  from the separatist party Esquerra Republicana to govern. An election  in Catalonia means Esquerra will have to do battle with Torra’s Junts  per Catalunya party for pro-independence support among the electorate.
That  risks making it harder for Esquerra to back the central government in  Madrid. At the same time it raises the prospect of a potential  realignment of political forces after Torra conceded that the separatist  alliance ruling in the northeastern region of Spain had splintered.
“It  will have an impact on the wider Spanish scene because it shows how the  Catalan situation continues to set the agenda,” said Antonio Barroso,  deputy director of research at Teneo Intelligence in London. “Esquerra  has tried a more pragmatic strategy with Sanchez but now it has to fight  a very tough election in Catalonia.”
Torra’s announcement comes  after coalition partner Esquerra broke ranks with him after he refused  to abide by a an electoral-board decision that he could no longer serve  in the Catalan parliament. Torra sought to cast his vote in the assembly  in a session earlier this week only to be told by the parliament  speaker that it wasn’t valid.
While Junts per Catalunya deputies  stood to applaud him, those from Esquerra Republicana sat quietly in  their seats, providing a clear image for the media of the evident rift  between between them. Both the speaker of the parliament and Torra’s  vice-president are members of Esquerra.

More at: https://news.yahoo.com/catalan-elect...114330598.html

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## Swordsmyth

Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez met Catalonia's pro-independence  regional leader on Thursday for the first time in over a year to  outline an agenda for wider negotiations with the region that are due to  kick off later this month.The plan seeks to address Catalonia's  divisive push for independence and improve relations with the region  that tried to break away from Spain in 2017. The 44-item agenda puts  issues ranging from taxation to decentralization on the table, although  notably not the actual right to self-determination.
"On balance,  the past decade has been lamentable. Nobody has won, we all have lost,"  Sanchez said after meeting with Quim Torra, head of the Catalan regional  government, in Barcelona.
"What the government of Spain is proposing is a restart," Sanchez told reporters.


It was regrettable that Sanchez rejected the idea of an authorized  referendum on independence and that his request to grant an amnesty to  jailed and self-exiled separatist leaders went unanswered, Torra said.
"What  we are requesting is that it is a frank and honest dialogue that deals  with the political conflict's root," he told reporters.
Torra's party, Junts per Catalunya, is, along with ERC, part of a faltering pro-independence ruling coalition in the region.
Torra  said last month he planned to call a snap regional election and, after  meeting Sanchez, he said talks between both governments should not be  affected by the electoral process. The election would be in May at the  earliest.

More at: https://news.yahoo.com/spains-pm-mee...180450867.html

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## Swordsmyth

A bloc of parties that support Catatonia’s secession from Spain have strengthened a grip on the region’s parliament. The number of seats won during Monday’s vote is enough for them to form the government.

The three pro-independence parties have increased their majority by four seats. They now hold 74 of the 135 of the seats in the Catalan parliament, which is more than enough to form a government.

The Republican Left of Catalonia (ERC), Together for Catalonia (JxCat), and the Popular Unity Candidacy, which see the region as independent from Spanish control, each gained seats since the last election in 2017. 

More at: https://www.rt.com/news/515646-catal...ependence-win/

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## Reine37

> Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez met Catalonia's pro-independence regional leader on Thursday for the first time in over a year to outline an agenda for wider negotiations with the region that are due to kick off later this month.The plan seeks to address Catalonia's divisive push for independence and improve relations with the region that tried to break away from Spain in 2017. The 44-item agenda puts issues ranging from taxation to decentralization on the table, although notably not the actual right to self-determination.
> "On balance, the past decade has been lamentable. Nobody has won, we all have lost," Sanchez said after meeting with Quim Torra, head of the Catalan regional government, in Barcelona.
> "What the government of Spain is proposing is a restart," Sanchez told reporters.
> 
> 
> It was regrettable that Sanchez rejected the idea of an authorized referendum on independence and that his request to grant an amnesty to jailed and self-exiled separatist leaders went unanswered, Torra said.
> "What we are requesting is that it is a frank and honest dialogue that deals with the political conflict's root," he told reporters.
> Torra's party, Junts per Catalunya, is, along with ERC, part of a faltering pro-independence ruling coalition in the region.
> Torra said last month he planned to call a snap regional election and, after meeting Sanchez, he said talks between both governments should not be affected by the electoral process. The election would be in May at the earliest.
> ...


Hello, who can explain to me what a frank and honest dialogue is these days?

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## Firestarter

The European parliament has voted to lift the immunity of the former Catalan president Carles Puigdemont and 2 of his ministers, Antoni Comín and Clara Ponsatí, taking them a step closer to extradition and prosecution in the Kingdom of Spain.

The 3 announced that they would appeal against the vote at the the European court of justice, which would extend legal proceedings for at least a year.


Ponsatí lives in Scotland, and Puigdemont and Comín in Belgium.
The Belgian courts earlier denied the Spanish arrest warrant against in 2018.

Nine independence leaders who remained in Catalonia, including Oriol Junqueras, were sentenced up to 13 years by the Spanish courts in October 2019.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ns-of-immunity

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## Pauls' Revere

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Firestarter again.

Thank you for the update.

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## Firestarter

Nine leading Catalan secessionists, that were imprisoned in the Kingdom of Spain for more than 3 years for their role in holding a referendum in October 2017 followed by the short-lived declaration of independence for Catalonia have been released from prison.
They are former Catalonia Vice President Oriol Junqueras, 5 cabinet members, Catalonia parliament’s speaker and 2 independence activists.

See 7 of these 9...



The separatists were sentenced to between 9 and 13 years in jail in 2019.
They were given pardons on Tuesday by King Felipe's government.

All 9 secessionists are still banned from holding public office: https://www.france24.com/en/europe/2...doned-by-spain

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## TheTexan

> The separatists were sentenced to between 9 and 13 years in jail in 2019.


9-13 years for holding a vote?  Jeez.

That's some brutal dictator $#@! right there.  Even if they did get pardoned.

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