# Lifestyles & Discussion > Personal Health & Well-Being >  Switching to a Vegetarian Diet

## Vessol

So I've been meaning to do so for awhile, but I've been continuously been putting it off. Recently after discussion with a few people and reading a few books and watching a few videos, I feel it's time that I go through with it. Consequently, I've also quit smoking. Even though I only smoked a cigarette or two a day, it was a nasty habit and I just threw away my packs of cigarettes.

I thought I'd open this thread to others too who perhaps are interested, but are not sure where to start.

I'm planning on switching to a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet. Still eating eggs and consuming milk products.

Any tips on meals to prepare, foods to switch to(and to snack on), etc. Would be awesome.

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## dannno

Ok, first of all, a bunch of people on this board are paleo and have had great success. Good for them. My roommate tried to talk me into the paleo diet, and he ended up doing it for about 4 months. Recently he switched to vegetarian, and after 2 weeks I am happy to report that he has more energy and feels less "weighed down" and is enjoying it very much. This has been my experience as well, meat just doesn't sit well with me in the long-term. It's important to try different diets and see what works best for you.

I'm primarily lacto-vegetarian, but I supplement fish once every 1-2 months (usually sushi) and turkey once per year (t-giving) and beef or pork maybe 2-4 times a year at most. That's mostly because I ENJOY eating meat once in a while. However I enjoy it more when I eat it once in a while than when I eat it all the time, partly because when I do eat it I make sure it is high quality meat. Back 10 years ago when I was eating it nearly every meal, it was difficult to ensure that every meal I was getting high quality meat. I find that when I do eat meat, my metabolism slows down drastically, I feel weighed down and will gain weight. For me, a vegetarian diet is key to a slim waist and a healthy lifestyle.

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## Vessol

Yeah, the health and energy reasons are a big thing for me. Exercising more regularly is something I'm also now doing. But for me, in the past few months, meat has become almost tasteless or even bad tasting. I've definitely been raised throughout my life as having meat as a center part of any important meal, so it'll be weird to change that.
As for reasons. Weight really is not a concern of mine. I tend to eat unhealthy, but even then I've always been incredibly thin, almost to the point of being underweight. Ethical and health reasons are my primary concerns, having more energy would be great.

I already cut all high frutose corn syrup from my diet 4 months ago, which definitely made me feel better. You never know addicting soda is until you give it up.

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## dannno

I personally don't think there is anything wrong with soy, especially in moderation. There's a lot of info about it being bad, but I think it's a bunch of propaganda. Soy is a complete protein, like hemp seeds, but much cheaper (only because it's legal to grow in the U.S.)

Still, you will want to stick to soy that is gmo free, organic if possible, and tofu if possible. My favorite dish in the world is Thai Green Curry with Tofu and Vegetables. Indian is also very delicious and often focused on being vegetarian. It's a lot easier to make good veggie food based on asian cultures than American.

So I would recommend at least small amounts of soy in moderation because it is a complete protein (and absolutely delicious, when I see a package of tofu my mouth salivates like it's a delicious steak), but your main protein sources might be things like beans and rice, nuts or dairy. 

Some people have a hard time with grains. I don't. If you do, there are some good alternatives like quinoa and amaranth which can be substituted for rice (make sure to rinse these, per the instructions)

If you are ok with grains, try and stick with whole grains rather than highly processed grains. It will help to release less carbs, and more slowly than processed grains.

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## Created4

The dangers of soy are real, not propaganda. Soy has never been the main part of diets in traditional Asian cultures, such as being a meat substitute and a major source of protein. It is a plant estrogen. Do your research. The propaganda is from the multi-billion dollar soy industry. http://www.drlam.com/opinion/soyandestrogen.asp

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## dannno

> The dangers of soy are real, not propaganda. Soy has never been the main part of diets in traditional Asian cultures, such as being a meat substitute and a major source of protein. It is a plant estrogen. Do your research. The propaganda is from the multi-billion dollar soy industry. http://www.drlam.com/opinion/soyandestrogen.asp


I didn't say to make it the main part of your diet, I just said that it is healthy to eat once in a while because it is a complete protein. As long as you eat other proteins as well, I think you're fine. 

Secondly, I don't buy that it CAN'T be eaten on a regular basis, I just don't recommend it because perhaps, for some people (and maybe not all people) it may have a negative impact in large quantities.



Soy milk and tofu are all over the place in asia, and there are a lot of dishes from there that have tofu. There are a lot of Asians who are vegetarian for religious reasons, and many eat tofu somewhat regularly. I've heard the argument that there aren't, I just don't believe it based on my experiences.

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## specsaregood

> Switching to a Vegetarian Diet


do you feel gayer already?
edit: /joke  *_added because some people (not dannno) didn't get that._

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## dannno

> do you feel gayer already?


It doesn't make you gay, it makes you break out in vaginas until you turn into a giant pussy, derrrr...

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## heavenlyboy34

> The dangers of soy are real, not propaganda. Soy has never been the main part of diets in traditional Asian cultures, such as being a meat substitute and a major source of protein. It is a plant estrogen. Do your research. The propaganda is from the multi-billion dollar soy industry. http://www.drlam.com/opinion/soyandestrogen.asp


 qft.  As an aside-IIRC, the soy isoflavones that are popular in health foods and such are even worse than straight soy.

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## Bryan

I've been vegetarian for a few years- for ethical reasons. A few things to look at:
- Grilled veggys are the best. 
- Italian.
- Nuts, fruit and dried fruit for miscellaneous snacking on the go.
- Find a protein powder / shake that you like. Use it to fill-in, add when you aren't getting what you need.
- I can never get enough smoothies- the right mix of fruit, nuts, protein, juice, etc are great. If you want to go all out, get a high end blender ($300-400+ vitamix) and make green smoothies.
- For breakfast- potato, egg and cheese in flour tortillas are filling.  Pancakes, french toast, etc are stand-bys. 
- If you're feeling like you're missing something of old, you can pick up a lot of veggy substitutes for some common favorites- garden burgers are obvious. I've had veggy corn dogs and they are much better than a regular one- I've also had veggy "meat" balls, BBQ "ribbs" and on- it's really kind of surprising, and tasty. 
- You'll start to notice that a lot of packaged foods seem to use meat as a sort of crutch- it can add so little, but they just have to toss it in there, almost for marketing reasons it seems.
When eating out, most restaurants will have one, maybe two dishes that are vegetarian. I'll always ask "Is this totally vegetarian?" since sometime no meat products are listed but it's still not vegetarian. 
- The best "fast food" that I've seen is a Subway VeggyMax - which has a veggy bean patty of sorts. It seems only 25% of Subways have them, however.
- Lots more- this is just my start, and you can obviously eat better than this.

Great to hear! Keep us posted.

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## heavenlyboy34

> Yeah, the health and energy reasons are a big thing for me. Exercising more regularly is something I'm also now doing. *But for me, in the past few months, meat has become almost tasteless or even bad tasting.* I've definitely been raised throughout my life as having meat as a center part of any important meal, so it'll be weird to change that.
> As for reasons. Weight really is not a concern of mine. I tend to eat unhealthy, but even then I've always been incredibly thin, almost to the point of being underweight. Ethical and health reasons are my primary concerns, having more energy would be great.
> 
> I already cut all high frutose corn syrup from my diet 4 months ago, which definitely made me feel better. You never know addicting soda is until you give it up.


I've had that experience with beef much more often than meat in general.  The only meats in my diet nowadays are fish and poultry, and I emphasize veggies and fruits much more than I used to.  That plus increasing my exercise has made me feel and function much better in recent years.  I feel better than I did when I was a teenager.

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## newyearsrevolution08

I have recently started going this route. Well also removing fast food completely from my diet as well as any soda's

just got to keep things somewhat healthy and counter balance all the partyin I did in my younger days lol.

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## heavenlyboy34

> I didn't say to make it the main part of your diet, I just said that it is healthy to eat once in a while because it is a complete protein. As long as you eat other proteins as well, I think you're fine. 
> 
> Secondly, I don't buy that it CAN'T be eaten on a regular basis, I just don't recommend it because perhaps, for some people (and maybe not all people) it may have a negative impact in large quantities.
> 
> 
> 
> Soy milk and tofu are all over the place in asia, and there are a lot of dishes from there that have tofu. There are a lot of Asians who are vegetarian for religious reasons, and many eat tofu somewhat regularly. I've heard the argument that there aren't, I just don't believe it based on my experiences.


 Danno, the soy used in Asian diets is not the variety popular here.  It's almost all fermented soy, and is high-protein, low-estrogen.

Soy  panacea or poison?
 Soy stops cancer and baldness (1)
 Soy foods can stimulate the growth of oestrogen-dependent tumours and cause thyroid problems. (7)
 Boosting your Soy intake could reduce your risk of breast cancer (5)
 A British Government report concluded that there is little evidence  that soy foods protect against breast cancer or any other forms of  cancer. In fact, soy foods may result in an increased risk of cancer  (8)
 Confused? 
 In the November issue I introduced a food pyramid by Naturopath David  Getoff that positioned soy at the top and recommended it to be eaten  rarely if ever. But these products fill health food stores, various  medical professionals recommend them and have extensively tested them   or have they? Who do we believe?
 This months crime watch article on soy will examine the following:
 	History of the humble soy bean
	Its role in the Asian diet
	Its role in the western diet- where is it lurking
	Critical questions regarding its safety
	The guinea pigs
 Soy Beginnings
The soy plant was initially used as green manure or a cover crop  plowed under to enrich the soil, and it became known to the Chinese as  the yellow jewel. Soy did not become human food till late in the Chou  Dynasty (1134-246 BC), after the Chinese developed a process of  fermentation to make it into soy paste, called miso, with the run-off  liquid called soy sauce.  Tofu came after miso and in Japan, and China  it was rarely served as a main course except in monastries where it was  eaten with miso or fish stock.  Around 1000 A.D fermented soy foods,  natto and tempeh entered the food supply. Modern soy products such as  soy-protein isolate and concentrate made using highly processed methods  were unknown in Asia till after World War II. Furthermore neither soy  milk nor infant formula is traditional in Asia. The first person to  manufacture soy milk was actually an American missionary and physician  Harry Miller. Claims that soybeans have been a major part of the Asian diet for more than 3,000 years, or time immemorial are simply not true. (6)
 Soy in the Asian diet
According to a spokesman for Cancer Research UK Theres a lot of  research that countries with a high intake of soy in their diet, such as  Japan, tend to have lower rates of prostate cancer and some other  types, with the active ingredients in soy thought to be isoflavones.  (1).
Sounds very compelling, however lets elaborate how much soy is actually  in the Japanese and Asian diet. According to the soy industrys own  figures Asians eat very little soy; around 9.3 to 36grams per day in  China, Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and Taiwan. In comparison a cup of Tofu  is 252grams, or soy milk 240 grams (6).
More importantly the quality is hardly comparable, with the Asian  countries generally eating their soy already fermented like miso soup,  not as tofu, sausages or meat replacement foods. According to Sally  Fallon from Weston A Price foundation (leading independent health group)  approximately 65% of Japanese calories come from fish while in China  the same percentage from Pork. So it is far from the backbone of their  diet (8).
 Soy in the Western diet
Apart from the obvious where else is soy lurking? Research estimates  that soy is present in 70% of all supermarket products and widely used  in Fast Food chains. Soy is used to bulk out and bind many processed  foods such as sausages, lasagne, beef burgers and chicken nuggets (food  firms can then put a higher protein value on them). Even the husk is  used for fibre in breads, cereals, and snacks. The big one is in  vegetable oil- soy is the most consumed vegetable oil in the world and  is used in margarines, salad dressings and cooking oils. Food labels simply list soy oil as vegetable oil
As well as that 90% of the 200 million tonnes of soy produced annually is used to feed animals (3). 
 Soy and the Thyroid
According to Mary Shomon editor of http://www.thyroid-info.com (9)
Soy products increase the risk of thyroid disease. And this danger is  particularly great for infants on soy formulaMore than 70 years of  human, animal and laboratory studies show that soybeans put the thyroid  at risk.
Dr. Mike Fitzpatrick, an environmental scientist and phytoestrogen  researcher who has conducted in-depth studies on soy, particularly the  use of soy formulas published in the New Zealand Medical journal. Dr.  Fitzpatrick makes it clear that soy products can have a detrimental  affect on both adults and infants. In particular, he firmly believes  that soy formula manufacturers should remove the isoflavones -- that  part of the soy products that act as anti-thyroid agents -- from their  products (2)
How do researchers induce thyroid cancers in laboratory animals? They  use thyroid-inhibiting foods like soy in combination with thyroid  boosting drugs like Synthroid. (6)
How much soy can impair thyroid problems? Perhaps as little as 30 mg or less than a glass of soy milk. (4)
 Soy and reproduction
Here is an interesting fact. Tofu is consumed by Buddhist monks to  reduce libido. Humans and animals appear to be the most vulnerable to  the effects of soy estrogens prenatally, during infancy and puberty,  during pregnancy  and lactation  all the major phases of hormonal shifts with growth and  development. How powerful can soy be to the hormone system? One landmark  study showed that as little as 45mg of isoflavines could alter the  length of a premenopausal womans menstrual cycle. (4) Obviously its  harder to find a cause and effect relationship as there are many  potentially triggers to hormonal imbalances and reproductive problems.  However in animals this has been more thoroughly tested. According to Dr  Mary Enig (world renowned lipid and hormone specialist) female pigs can  only ingest it in amounts no greater than 1% during lactation phase or  face developmental problems in the piglets (8).
 Soy and the environment
Soy was previously considered a good source of protein which attracted  vegetarians looking for meat alternatives. But its a double whammy for  environmental and health conscious vegetarians as the effect of soy  farming on the environment is dramatic. It is predicted that 10,000  hectares of forest every year in Argentina (20 football fields an hour).  If this continues at this rate in fives years time the countrys native  forests will have disappeared.  Similar scenarios are being played out  in Brazil, Paraguay and Bolivia all thanks to companies like the genetic  engineering giant Monsanto. The World Wide Fund for Nature published a  report recently calculating that 22 million hectares of forests and  savannah in South America (an area the size of Great Britain) will be  wiped out by 2020. Crops have also triggered soil erosion, and the  widespread use of pesticides and chemicals are destroying some of the  worlds most delicate habitats. (3). 
 Soy Business
Soy is traded as an international commodity, like oil and gold. Its a  multi-billion dollar industry., "The reason theres so much soy in  America is because they [the soy industry] started to plant soy to  extract the oil from it and soy oil became a very large industry. Once  they had as much oil as they did in the food supply they had a lot of  soy protein residue left over, and since they cant feed it to animals,  except in small amounts, they had to find another market." (2)
 Conclusion
So Soys reputation as a health panancea is now badly blemished. It  still has some supporters, but it is important to examine their  background to ensure they are not just PR mouthpieces for a very  powerful Soy industry.
Big Soy, like big pharmaceutical, has been a powerful force shaping an attitude to nutrition  and health. Given the mounting evidence that does not support Soy as a  health food I believe we need to be very nervous about accepting big Soy  spin as nutritional gospel.
 References
1. BBC News 2004, Soy stops cancer and Baldness, 14/11/2004
2. www.mercola.com/2004/jan/21/soy.htm, Soy: Is it healthy or is it harmful
3. Anthony Barnett, The Observer, They hailed it a wonder food, 7/11/2004
4. www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/articles/Shadow.htm, Sean Carson, The shadow of Soy or, How I stopped loving and learned to worry about the bean
5. www.thehealthierlife.co.uk, Soy Health benefits: why boosting your intake of soy could reduce your risk of breast cancer
6. www.thewholesoystory.com, Whole soy story: The dark side of Americas favorite health food. Daniel, K, T
7. New Zealand Medical Journal (vol 113 Feb 11 2000) Soy Formulas and the effects of isoflavones on the thyroid.
8. www.westonaprice.org, Myths and Truths about soy food
9. www.thyroid-info.com, Mary Shomon editor.

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## Tinnuhana

Alternative to soy milk: "Rice Dream" and now Silk has almond milk. Nice thing is, since they're not MILK, they don't scald or curdle in cooking or mixing. You can mix them with orange juice for a creamsicle flavored treat.

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## Revolution9

> I personally don't think there is anything wrong with soy, especially in moderation. There's a lot of info about it being bad, but I think it's a bunch of propaganda. Soy is a complete protein, like hemp seeds, but much cheaper (only because it's legal to grow in the U.S.)
> 
> Still, you will want to stick to soy that is gmo free, organic if possible, and tofu if possible. My favorite dish in the world is Thai Green Curry with Tofu and Vegetables. Indian is also very delicious and often focused on being vegetarian. It's a lot easier to make good veggie food based on asian cultures than American.
> 
> So I would recommend at least small amounts of soy in moderation because it is a complete protein (and absolutely delicious, when I see a package of tofu my mouth salivates like it's a delicious steak), but your main protein sources might be things like beans and rice, nuts or dairy. 
> 
> Some people have a hard time with grains. I don't. If you do, there are some good alternatives like quinoa and amaranth which can be substituted for rice (make sure to rinse these, per the instructions)
> 
> If you are ok with grains, try and stick with whole grains rather than highly processed grains. It will help to release less carbs, and more slowly than processed grains.


I demineralized due to soy and now have two front teeth broken off. One from pizza crust and the other from a chicken wrap with stale chicken. I have done every diet and am now back to what i ate as a kid and never got a cavity from, walked miles to school and back and often ate no lunch. Steak, burgers fried in butter, all grass fed, with chicken and fish, alot of berries, concord grape juice and fruit like peaches and bananas. I love bread but am allergic to gluten..not bad but enough to give me swollen eyes and heartburn. I know folks who it will make them walk with a cane they are in so much pain. Frankly, I feel healthy and strong again. But my genetic is northern european forests so I am basically eating the diet my ancestors did for 50k+ generations. I think my trying to switch to a completely different ungulate diet after only two or three generations was a mistake for me and my teeth and muscles cost dearly from that. I am now getting younger and stronger. I use veggies for medicine.

Rev9

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## Revolution9

> Alternative to soy milk: "Rice Dream" and now Silk has almond milk. Nice thing is, since they're not MILK, they don't scald or curdle in cooking or mixing. You can mix them with orange juice for a creamsicle flavored treat.


Had some Rice Dream three weeks ago and the oil or thickener in it gave me a nasty bunch of hives after a night of wierd pressure type heartburn. If  recall it has canola in it which is an insecticide for the rapeseed plant which is subjected to very harsh alkalines to stop it from going rancid a few hours after pressing.. One can make their own almond milk which is quite tasty by boiling crushed almonds and then refrigerating.

Rev9

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## sevin

> I've been vegetarian for a few years- for ethical reasons.


I don't understand the ethical reasons for going vegetarian. Are you saying the non-aggression principle applies to animals as well? While I respect your decision to be a vegetarian, I've just never understood the reasoning, especially since humans are biologically carnivorous.

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## specsaregood

> Any tips on meals to prepare, foods to switch to(and to snack on), etc. Would be awesome.


Just as to be a bit helpful in this thread, here are 2 vegetarian meal recipes that are staples for our family.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post2036425



> An original from the wifey and one of our favorites around the house....
> 
> *"Rainbow Pepper Pasta"*  
> Ingredients: 
>  1. 1 Bulb Garlic (diced) 
>  2. 1 bag of whole wheat pasta (penne) 
>  3. 3 bell peppers (assorted colors) (chopped) 
>  4. 1 can of chichi beans (chickpeas) (strained and rinse well) 
>  5. 1 can of diced tomatoes (Strained, no extra water) 
> ...


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post2280207



> I posted this in another thread and somebody reminded me of this thread.....so for posterity:
> 
> *Broccoli Rabe and beans pasta*
> Ingredients:
> 1. 1 Bulb Garlic (diced)
> 2. 1 bag of whole wheat pasta (penne)
> 3. 2 Heads of Broccoli Rabe aka:rapini (chopped)
> 4. 1 can of cannelini beans or red kidney beans (strained and rinse well)
> 5. white pepper or black pepper and red pepper flakes
> ...


Oh and congrats on throwing out the cigarettes!  I wish I had done the same thing 15 years earlier.  Just make sure not to pick them up again, it just gets tougher as you get older.

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## sratiug

Read Brian Peskin's "The 24 Hour Diet".  Vegetarian is not a human diet.  Vegetable protein is poorly digested.  Fiber is not healthy for humans because humans can't digest cellulose.  Fat is the main fuel of your body.  FDA recommendations for protein are not sufficient.  Protein is mostly burned during digestion so very little is left over for body repair unless you eat plenty of it.  Go heavy on the eggs!

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## specsaregood

> Read Brian Peskin's "The 24 Hour Diet".  Vegetarian is not a human diet.  Vegetable protein is poorly digested.  Fiber is not healthy for humans because humans can't digest cellulose.  Fat is the main fuel of your body.  FDA recommendations for protein are not sufficient.  Protein is mostly burned during digestion so very little is left over for body repair unless you eat plenty of it.  Go heavy on the eggs!


There are so many books out there. it is rather easy to pit them against each other.   For example:  Go Read the Blood Type diet, according to that author: grains are ideal for certain blood types (A), dairy is ideal for (B), meat is ideal for (O).

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## Created4

TRADITIONAL Asian diets do not have large concentrations of soy. Looking at what modern day Asians eat is kind of pointless, since the whole world follows what Americans do now. Again, look at the research. The research is prevalent. Everyone in America is already consuming large amounts of soy because it is in everything, so most people are trying to reduce their consumption of soy, not increase it. Soy protein and their plant-based estrogen is the cause of many modern health problems, particularly hypothyroidism in females. Did you even read the article at the link? Written by an Asian doctor...




> I didn't say to make it the main part of your diet, I just said that it is healthy to eat once in a while because it is a complete protein. As long as you eat other proteins as well, I think you're fine. 
> 
> Secondly, I don't buy that it CAN'T be eaten on a regular basis, I just don't recommend it because perhaps, for some people (and maybe not all people) it may have a negative impact in large quantities.
> 
> 
> 
> Soy milk and tofu are all over the place in asia, and there are a lot of dishes from there that have tofu. There are a lot of Asians who are vegetarian for religious reasons, and many eat tofu somewhat regularly. I've heard the argument that there aren't, I just don't believe it based on my experiences.

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## sratiug

> There are so many books out there. it is rather easy to pit them against each other.   For example:  Go Read the Blood Type diet, according to that author: grains are ideal for certain blood types (A), dairy is ideal for (B), meat is ideal for (O).


Yeah, there are lots of books.  But very few with actual facts.  Peskin's book is well documented with facts from medical textbooks and journals that are overlooked and over-shadowed by bad studies.  

Grains are not good for anybody.  You may as well eat sugar.  Complex carbs only delay the insulin response a few minutes.  

From the October14, 2000 edition of Lancet - "The people eating the most fiber get the most colon cancer".  The fiber found worthless to protect against colon cancer was the highly promoted soluble fiber.

Textbook of medical physiology 9th edition page 834 - "No enzymes capable of hydrolyzing [breaking down] cellulose [fiber] are secreted in the human digestive tract.  Consequently, fiber cannot be considered a food for the human being."

Journal of clinical nutrition, 2000, 71:466-471 - "Women eating the most fiber and the lowest amount of fat had the lowest calcium retention."

According to the textbook of medical physiology there is only about 1 teaspoon of sugar in your blood stream.  Five grams of carbs dumps another teaspoon of sugar into your blood which must be removed by insulin and stored as fat to keep you from dying.  Carbs overload your pancreas which has only 1% of its mass devoted to carbohydrate processing.  Only 1% of your body is carbohydrate and carbs are not vital to any function of your body.  Your body makes sugar as needed from fats and protein.

The Textbook of Medical Physiology - pages 869, 871, 936 - "Specific sugars [carbohydrates] ARE NOT REQUIRED in the diet".

What is required is fat and protein, and Peskin emphasizes getting a 2.5 ratio of unadulterated parent omega 6 oils to parent omega 3 oils.  Hemp oil is a good source.

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## trey4sports

its all bull$#@!. Eat what makes you feel healthy and tastes good.

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## specsaregood

> Yeah, there are lots of books.  But very few with actual facts.  Peskin's book is well documented with facts from medical textbooks and journals that are overlooked and over-shadowed by bad studies.  
> 
> Grains are not good for anybody.  You may as well eat sugar.  Complex carbs only delay the insulin response a few minutes.


Yes, well facts and medical findings change over the years, the book I mentioned is filled with citations and quotes and references to journals, studies, etc -- hell what decent book isn't?.  If you are interested, read the book, if not that is your choice.   I think it is clear that no diet works for everybody.

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## Yieu

Vessol, I am very glad that you are choosing 'The Non-Aggression Principle Diet'.  I'm glad to hear you chose the Non-Aggression Principle Diet too, Bryan!  +rep to both!  Applying the non-aggression principle (a principle which I firmly believe originates from ancient religion, and is known as _ahimsa_ in Sanskrit) is quite a liberating experience -- especially karmicly, and spiritually.  I don't consider eggs to be vegetarian (though dairy is), but it's a step closer towards it.

I do not understand why The Non-Aggression Principle Diet so often attracts unwarranted attacks from those who do not follow or understand it, but don't let it bother you!  I tend to dislike discussing the subject because people often baselessly attack the idea that humans can be just as healthy without flesh, but if it can be discussed civilly without attacks, that would be enjoyable.  There is a nice informative book called "You Don't Need Meat", and another titled "The China Study" which show how meat is purely optional, and never a nutritional requirement for any human of any blood type.  DISCLAIMER:  I am not saying it is wrong or less healthy to eat meat, feel free to eat meat if you desire, but just realize that is not eaten for health reasons -- it is eaten purely for the taste preference and that's fine, but it is important to understand that there is nothing in meat that the human body requires that is not easily found in plants or milk.  Anyway, arguing against the vegetarian diet in a thread about becoming vegetarian is a distraction from the topic, and is off topic.  It would be nice to stay on topic.

Anyway, back on topic -- the non-aggression principle, or ahimsa, applies to all living entities.  It is easier to realize this from a religious or spiritual understanding, which I believe involves a more full and detailed understanding of the ethics or karma behind applying the non-aggression principle to one's every action and diet.  The spirit/soul is what animates the body with life; without spirit/soul, a body would be a dead, lifeless lump of flesh.  The same kind of spirit/soul that animates humans, animates all other living entities in the same way, thus compassion for all living entities and not just for other humans makes sense in a religious or spiritual context.  This is explained nicely in the following verse:




> Chapter 5, Verse 18.
> The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brahmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater [outcaste].
> 
> Image depiction of the verse.


It goes deeper still, into spiritual philosophy, which is explained nicely by the Vedas.  All religions can appreciate the non-aggression principle, and the diet which results from following it.  Though it is more clearly expounded upon in some religions more than others, the essence of the instruction is there in all.

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## sevin

If the non-aggression principle applies to all living things, then do animals have the same rights as humans? Should animals in zoos be set free? Should humans stop building on new land because it drives out the animals that live there?

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## Yieu

> If the non-aggression principle applies to all living things, then do animals have the same rights as humans? Should animals in zoos be set free? Should humans stop building on new land because it drives out the animals that live there?


While the non-aggression principle applies, one must also keep in mind the differences between the animal kingdom and human civilization.  The rules of karma do not apply to animals between each other the same way it applies to all human actions.  The difference between humans and animals is that we have a greater capacity for intelligence, and thus for civilization -- but the whole purpose of our intelligence is for understanding God/Krishna.  Therefore, our intelligence is meant to be applied toward that end.

Animals do not have "rights" in the same way that humans do, as many of our rights are a reflection of our intellect, but when a humans aggresses upon animals it does bring negative karma upon them because it is a violation of ahimsa, the non-aggression principle.  Those rights which are a reflection of the soul are universal, such as the right to life.  Animals do not have to follow the non-aggression principle, because they are governed by the rules of the animal kingdom, so it is not so terrible for a lion to kill a gazelle.  But for humans there is a different set of standards for interaction with other beings, and it is based on spiritual principles.

One can keep a pet without merely keeping it being an act of aggression.  This can be applied to zoos too, unless perhaps if the zoo is directly harming the animal in some way.  Study the laws of karma (which can be read about in Vedic texts), and the answers of what is aggression and what is not aggression will become more clear.

----------


## amy31416

> One can keep a pet without merely keeping it being an act of aggression.  This can be applied to zoos too, unless perhaps if the zoo is directly harming the animal in some way.  Study the laws of karma (which can be read about in Vedic texts), and the answers of what is aggression and what is not aggression will become more clear.


You'd like Kruger National Park in South Africa. I always described it as a "reverse" zoo, where the animals roam pretty much freely, and the humans are in the cages for purposes of observation.

It's pretty nifty, the camps have like 30ft fences around them (monkeys can still get in), and once you're driving on the trails, you are strictly forbidden from getting out of your vehicle, for obvious reasons. They give some basic training on how to deal with confrontations with elephants, rhinos, hippos and other animals who can harm you even in a vehicle. It was an amazing place to go.

First animal I saw upon entrance:



Now *that's* quite a rack!

----------


## Yieu

Sounds like fun!  Merely by observing animals, even without studying religious or philosophical texts such as the Vedas, one can clearly see that they are animated by the same type of essence/soul that animates us, if you know how to look.  They are not dead machines, they are alive with personality.  Nature is so beautiful, because it was designed by God and He can be seen throughout it.

----------


## dannno

> I demineralized due to soy and now have two front teeth broken off. One from pizza crust and the other from a chicken wrap with stale chicken. I have done every diet and am now back to what i ate as a kid and never got a cavity from, walked miles to school and back and often ate no lunch. Steak, burgers fried in butter, all grass fed, with chicken and fish, alot of berries, concord grape juice and fruit like peaches and bananas. I love bread but am allergic to gluten..not bad but enough to give me swollen eyes and heartburn. I know folks who it will make them walk with a cane they are in so much pain. Frankly, I feel healthy and strong again. But my genetic is northern european forests so I am basically eating the diet my ancestors did for 50k+ generations. I think my trying to switch to a completely different ungulate diet after only two or three generations was a mistake for me and my teeth and muscles cost dearly from that. I am now getting younger and stronger. I use veggies for medicine.
> 
> Rev9


What is your blood type?

----------


## dannno

> TRADITIONAL Asian diets do not have large concentrations of soy. Looking at what modern day Asians eat is kind of pointless, since the whole world follows what Americans do now. Again, look at the research. The research is prevalent. Everyone in America is already consuming large amounts of soy because it is in everything, so most people are trying to reduce their consumption of soy, not increase it. Soy protein and their plant-based estrogen is the cause of many modern health problems, particularly hypothyroidism in females. Did you even read the article at the link? Written by an Asian doctor...


No, a lot of Buddhists and Hindus are vegetarian. It has nothing to do with western culture and everything to do with religion. I keep hearing these arguments, but they don't make any sense to me.

----------


## specsaregood

> You'd like Kruger National Park in South Africa. I always described it as a "reverse" zoo, where the animals roam pretty much freely, and the humans are in the cages for purposes of observation.


OffTopic: one of the best purchases since our kid arrived was a family annual-pass to the local zoo.  It makes for inexpensive family outings and something to do when all the out of town relatives/friends show up to see new member of the family.

----------


## Yieu

> No, a lot of Buddhists and Hindus are vegetarian. It has nothing to do with western culture and everything to do with religion. I keep hearing these arguments, but they don't make any sense to me.


This is all true.  Humans have been vegetarian for as long as they have eaten meat as well.  Vegetarianism is as ancient as meat eating, and abstaining from flesh is primarily due to religious morals (such as observance of the laws of karma (good deeds and sins), but it goes deeper).  Hinduism, being the oldest religion, has rooted the moral principle of vegetarianism for over 5,000 years (this is as long as Western history is willing to look back, but it goes much, much further).

But aside from that, the person you replied to primarily was talking about soy.  I want to make it clear that it is not necessary to have soy to be vegetarian, and Hindus (and some Buddhists) have thrived healthily for thousands of years without having to rely on soy.  Soy has of course been used for thousands of years for Asian vegetarians including Asian Buddhists, and it is not as bad as some demonize it to be.  But having soy is not necessary by any means to be vegetarian, there are plenty of other beans to eat too, if you really don't like soy, even though it's not that bad.

----------


## sratiug

> Yes, well facts and medical findings change over the years, the book I mentioned is filled with citations and quotes and references to journals, studies, etc -- hell what decent book isn't?.  If you are interested, read the book, if not that is your choice.   I think it is clear that no diet works for everybody.


Real science doesn't change over the years.  I read the book ten years ago.  I've read many books on health and nutrition.  Brian Peskin's are the best.  Here's what he has to say about the blood type diet in his book "The 24 Hour Diet".




> "If you are interested in science, forget this theory.  The very concept that you need to understand 50 or more foods that are good for you but not for me is lunacy.  Think about it - do animals get different diets based on blood type?  Don't embarrass yourself by asking your veterinarian this question."


Of course now that pet foods have moved to carbohydrates diabetes and cancer are becoming as prevalent in dogs as they are in people.  People are much closer to wolves in their dietary needs than sheep.  Don't be a sheep.


The fallacy that complex carbs are better than sugar was proven wrong long ago.

British Journal of Nutrition 2004 June - "There was no association between Glycemic Index and Insulin Index (the amount of insulin generated)...
"In conclusion, the present results show that the GI of mixed meals calculated by table values DOES NOT predict the measured GI."

Total insulin generated is the key factor, and the only way to reduce that amount is by reducing carbs.

Textbook of Medical Physiology 4th edition page 908 - "Carbohydrates slow the metabolism compared to consuming natural fats and proteins."

Textbook of Medical Physiology  pages 974, 975 and 977 - "An excess of carbohydrates in the diet not only acts as a fat sparer (you won't burn your own bodyfat) but also increases the fat in the fat stores (making you fatter).  In fact, all the excess carbohydrate not used (immediately through strenuous exercise) for energy or stored in the small glycogen deposits of the body is converted to fat and stored as such."

----------


## sratiug

> I demineralized due to soy and now have two front teeth broken off. One from pizza crust and the other from a chicken wrap with stale chicken. I have done every diet and am now back to what i ate as a kid and never got a cavity from, walked miles to school and back and often ate no lunch. Steak, burgers fried in butter, all grass fed, with chicken and fish, alot of berries, concord grape juice and fruit like peaches and bananas. I love bread but am allergic to gluten..not bad but enough to give me swollen eyes and heartburn. I know folks who it will make them walk with a cane they are in so much pain. Frankly, I feel healthy and strong again. But my genetic is northern european forests so I am basically eating the diet my ancestors did for 50k+ generations. I think my trying to switch to a completely different ungulate diet after only two or three generations was a mistake for me and my teeth and muscles cost dearly from that. I am now getting younger and stronger. I use veggies for medicine.
> 
> Rev9


Textbook of Medical Physiology - "...protein functions in ... these cells to transport calcium into the cell cytoplasm... The rate of calcium absorption seems to be directly proportional to the quantity of this calcium-binding protein."

Lack of protein is one of the significant causes of osteoporosis.  More calcium cannot correct a protein deficiency.  I've seen this personally in my aunt who insisted on eating lots of mineral leaching fiber and grains and became stooped nearly to the floor and is now bedridden despite taking calcium supplements religiously.

----------


## Acala

I'll not go down the road we went in another recent thread.  So I will just say WATCH YOUR FATTY ACID INTAKE!  You MUST keep your omega 6/ omega 3 ratio around 3/1 or even 1/1.  If you don't, you WILL adversely impact your nervous sytem.  A recent scientific study shows measurable brain shrinkage in vegans, almost certainly for this reason.    

The standard American diet (SAD) has an average ratio or 20/1 or more.  This is because they put high omega 6 oil in EVERYTHING!  Corn oil, canola oil, safflower oil, all bad news.  Olive oil, coconut oil, and palm oil (all unmodified of course) are good.  Hemp oil also has a good balance IF you strictly control your other sources of Omega 6.  The problem is that omega 6 and omega 3 compete for limited metabolic pathways.  If you have too much omega 6 it will overwhelm the omega 3.  The result will be, among other things, the production of inflammatory compounds.  So just boosting omega 3 with, for example, fish oil or kelp, will not do the job.  You have to control omega 6.

So I suggest trying to eliminate all vegetable oils other than olive, coconut, and palm.  And if you won't eat seafood, eat kelp.    

Good luck!

----------


## Yieu

> I'll not go down the road we went in another recent thread.


Thanks for not going down that road.  This time your advice was not so targeted.  I agree, fatty acids are important.  Some of the best sources are flax oil and hemp seed oil.  If you want to avoid certain vegetable oils, ghee (clarified butter) is a great cooking oil and augments vegetable dishes with a delicious buttery flavor.

As for the general discussion of anti-vegetarian talk... why bother?  All it does is attack those who are just trying to live peaceful lives, it isn't friendly.  Just try to accept that meat is an option that we can either live with or without, and we'll all get along peacefully without problems.  Attacking vegetarians just because you don't want to accept their dietary preference is unnecessary, just stirs up trouble, and is way off topic.

----------


## sratiug

Fish oil is mostly derivatives of the parent omega 3 oil that is vital and thus it is not very healthy.  Flax and hemp oils are much better.

----------


## Yieu

> Fish oil is mostly derivatives of the parent omega 3 oil that is vital and thus it is not very healthy.  Flax and hemp oils are much better.


I agree.    Flax oil is wonderful, so is hemp oil.  Fresh flax oil tastes kind of like almonds -- it's a little strange at first, but if you get a good brand and it's fresh, it can taste alright, just have a tablespoon of it in the morning.

----------


## dannno

> Real science doesn't change over the years.  I read the book ten years ago.  I've read many books on health and nutrition.  Brian Peskin's are the best.  Here's what he has to say about the blood type diet in his book "The 24 Hour Diet".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				"If you are interested in science, forget this theory. The very concept that you need to understand 50 or more foods that are good for you but not for me is lunacy. Think about it - do animals get different diets based on blood type? Don't embarrass yourself by asking your veterinarian this question."


That's a bad argument against the blood type theory, although I don't believe that blood type is an absolute indicator of what your diet should be in my experience talking with people it is a good indicator. In other words, blood type itself may have nothing to do with diet (or maybe it does?), but the fact that it is an indicator of where you came from is often helpful for helping to determine what type of diet you thrive on. It's possible that rabbits from a certain region might thrive on certain plants, while rabbits from another region thrive on different types of plants. If you can tell the difference by what their fur looks like, great, if you can't tell the difference by their fur, but you could tell the difference between these rabbits based on blood type it would be the same thing.

People who have type A+ GENERALLY do better on a vegetarian diet, more often than not. Those who have O+ GENERALLY do better on a primarily meat based diet, more often than not. These two blood types often have difficulty with the other type of diet. 

Other blood types generally are able to be more flexible, but some should be weary of grains or dairy, etc. It's true that many people of certain cultures often cannot handle milk or grains very well, so I don't see how this doesn't make sense or help us at least be able to try things with our diet that can help lead us in the right direction.

----------


## Yieu

I think the book "You Don't Need Meat" by Peter Cox does a good job at debunking the blood type diet and the atkins diet.

Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/You-Dont-Need-...9457412&sr=8-1

Note:  When I say you don't need meat, I mean it is an option, you can go with or without it.  But it's not a requirement.

----------


## Acala

> Fish oil is mostly derivatives of the parent omega 3 oil that is vital and thus it is not very healthy.  Flax and hemp oils are much better.


Be aware that flax seed has more phyto-estrogens than even soy.  Not sure it matters.  The science doesn't seem clear.  

As far as fatty acids go, flax and hemp are fine IF you don't have other sources of omega 6 and unless you are being VERY careful I can guarantee you do.  They put vegetable oil in EVERYTHING!

----------


## Yieu

I don't think phytoestrogens matter.  Also, it's better to cook your own food than buy processed foods anyway, and you can control the oil that way.  Ghee is a great oil -- healthy, and more delicious than you'd think.

----------


## Acala

> I don't think phytoestrogens matter.  Also, it's better to cook your own food than buy processed foods anyway, and you can control the oil that way.  Ghee is a great oil -- healthy, and more delicious than you'd think.


Absolutely!.  Cook your own food.  And butter or ghee are fine for cooking, as are coconut and palm oils.  Recent studies suggest that olive oil doesn't like the heat.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> So I've been meaning to do so for awhile, but I've been continuously been putting it off. Recently after discussion with a few people and reading a few books and watching a few videos, I feel it's time that I go through with it. Consequently, I've also quit smoking. Even though I only smoked a cigarette or two a day, it was a nasty habit and I just threw away my packs of cigarettes.
> 
> I thought I'd open this thread to others too who perhaps are interested, but are not sure where to start.
> 
> I'm planning on switching to a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet. Still eating eggs and consuming milk products.
> 
> Any tips on meals to prepare, foods to switch to(and to snack on), etc. Would be awesome.


Hey, I think it's a great idea.  About 4 years ago, I went on a completely vegan diet and mostly raw.  I've never felt better in my life than I did then.  I think a vegetarian diet will help boost your immune system as you won't have to deal with all the potential toxins and parasites you might find in meat.  My vegan diet wasn't practical once I went to college, but I still don't consume dairy products, so pretty much the opposite of you.  I've also consumed some eggs.  

If you are interested in doing it the right way, however, I suggest you get the book "The Detox Miracle Sourcebook" by Robert Morse, N.D.  It's hard to adopt the diet he's suggesting, but I think you will find it useful for a vegetarian diet as well, such as for advice on how to get the proper amino acids and sources of protein without meat.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Alternative to soy milk: "Rice Dream" and now Silk has almond milk. Nice thing is, since they're not MILK, they don't scald or curdle in cooking or mixing. You can mix them with orange juice for a creamsicle flavored treat.


YES!  I love Rice Dream and almond milk.  Rice Dream also has a variety of soft cold desserts, which are every bit as good as ice cream.  Almond Dream also as a variety of ice cream substitutes in the form of buckets of non-dairy desserts or even non-dairy ice cream sandwiches.  I have them all the time and they are every bit as good as ice cream.  This is one thing that makes a vegetarian or vegan diet so much easier.

----------


## MartyMoose

I crave meat.  I need meat.  Sometimes I even kill for meat.  
Its quite clear the human is a predator of predators.  Eyes in the front to gauge distance, Complete mastery of tools and environment.  Why waste it on some tofu?  All that aside best of luck to you on your plans.  I have heard both good and bad things about removing one half of an omnivores diet.  Bears seem to do just fine and have adapted well.  Maybe humans have as well.

Grats on quitting smoking.  I hate smoking so much, i need to quit.

----------


## dannno

> I crave meat.  I need meat.  Sometimes I even kill for meat.  
> Its quite clear the human is a predator of predators.  Eyes in the front to gauge distance, Complete mastery of tools and environment.  Why waste it on some tofu?  All that aside best of luck to you on your plans.  I have heard both good and bad things about removing one half of an omnivores diet.  Bears seem to do just fine and have adapted well.  Maybe humans have as well.
> 
> Grats on quitting smoking.  I hate smoking so much, i need to quit.


What is your blood type?

----------


## dannno

> I went on a completely vegan diet and mostly raw.  I've never felt better in my life than I did then.


What is your blood type?


Also curious about the OP's, I thought I had asked.

----------


## Yieu

No human needs meat.  Do you crave and desire it?  Sure, but that's different.  But there is no requirement for meat.  Also, why waste the rare human body on just chasing after meat, when one's intelligence could be employed in pursuing God instead?  That is what the human body is designed for, not merely for being an aggressor or 'predator'.    God designed humans the way He did because this intelligent form is most suited for understanding Him.  Of course, He is kind enough to allow us to forget Him if that is our desire.

----------


## Yieu

> What is your blood type?





> What is your blood type?


I don't believe that matters at all in this topic.

----------


## dannno

As far as smoking cigs, I was also smoking 1-3 cigs (not packs) a day for a few years, but have gone to 6-10 cigs a year for the last 7 or 8 years. I don't find that one every once in a while is bad, especially if they are American Spirits. The problem comes when I have 2 or 3 in a single day or night, or if I'm having one a night for 2 or 3 nights, then I notice a difference in my lung function for sure. I have asthma though. I know of a few (very, very few) super athletes who some how are able to overcome cig smoking and still be the best in their highly strenuous sport.

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## dannno

> I don't believe that matters at all in this topic.


In my experience it absolutely does matter. Not blood type as a rule, but as a rule of thumb. I've met plenty of people who either simply know that they have to eat meat, or have tried going vegetarian and become very lethargic, their metabolism slows way down and they don't function properly. Yet I know many others, including myself, who are the exact opposite, the same thing happens to me when I eat meat with my metabolism. I have no problem figuring that different groups of humans around the globe changed their diets and evolved to eat differently than others.

----------


## Vessol

Thanks everyone for the great feedback. I've bookmarked this topic for future reference.

As for my ethical reasoning for vegetarianism, it definitely falls into the non-aggression pact of trying to minimize the pain and suffering of that which can feel it(ie: animals with central nervous systems). On the subject of requiring meat, I think that humans are really born scavengers. Like many apes and monkeys, we are able to process meat, but in our early history I doubt you'd see a early human(before use of tools) chasing down and hunting other creatures. More likely, a early human would use scavenged meat as a small addition to his diet. Of course I have nothing to back this up via books or studies or anything, this is just my belief. 

A quick question on oils. I love cooking with olive oil as often as possible, it's expensive though. That's why I end up using vegetable oils more often than not. Is there a similarly priced alternative, and with palm and flax/hemp oils do they cook similarly to olive oil?

----------


## specsaregood

> In my experience it absolutely does matter. Not blood type as a rule, but as a rule of thumb. I've met plenty of people who either simply know that they have to eat meat, or have tried going vegetarian and become very lethargic, their metabolism slows way down and they don't function properly. Yet I know many others, including myself, who are the exact opposite, the same thing happens to me when I eat meat with my metabolism. I have no problem figuring that different groups of humans around the globe changed their diets and evolved to eat differently than others.


Yeah, i know people that have taken the blood type information and really felt much better after using it as a guideline.  I tried it; but I'm an O I just don't really enjoy preparing/eating meat daily.  Primarily because I won't eat it unless it is fresh and organic which makes it a PITA to always have on hand.

----------


## specsaregood

> A quick question on oils. I love cooking with olive oil as often as possible, it's expensive though. That's why I end up using vegetable oils more often than not. Is there a similarly priced alternative, and with palm and flax/hemp oils do they cook similarly to olive oil?


Definitely get the olive oil in large containers it cuts the cost/oz down significantly.  Also, olive oil has a low smoke point, you don't want to burn it so use it on relatively low heat.   coconut oil is also good for you and can work as a substitute for baking as it is solid at room temperature like butter/margarine.   I'll leave the hemp oil question for dannno.

----------


## gerryb

I'll second the vitamix -- those things are beasts for smoothies -- I make mine with frozen blueberries, strawberries, and a banana -- add in some warm water and you've got a tasty meal replacement.

I even became a distributor for them -- if you use my code    06-006075  you'll get free shipping.  I recommend buying the "refurbished" units.  These are usually brand new units, and only the base is potentially used at a few trade show events.

Be careful not to fall into the trap of eating processed vegetarian food, it's just as bad for you as everything else that comes in a box from a factory.  Do some research on the "Raw vegan food" diet, too -- It's a tough track  to follow but if you do it 30-40% I think there are great benefits.  Basically it focuses on ensuring you get the enzymes you need and don't cook them away

----------


## Yieu

> In my experience it absolutely does matter. Not blood type as a rule, but as a rule of thumb. I've met plenty of people who either simply know that they have to eat meat, or have tried going vegetarian and become very lethargic, their metabolism slows way down and they don't function properly. Yet I know many others, including myself, who are the exact opposite, the same thing happens to me when I eat meat with my metabolism. I have no problem figuring that different groups of humans around the globe changed their diets and evolved to eat differently than others.


Well, I don't know what my blood type is (and don't think it matters really), but when I ate meat I was so lethargic I could hardly stay awake sometimes.  About a month or two after quitting, I felt much less lethargic and my veins felt as though they were no longer full of heavy oils bogging me down (I hadn't really noticed it until the feeling was gone), my body felt cleaner.  But my choice to abstain from flesh is not based on health reasons, though there are health reasons to consider abstaining --for me it is based on moral and religious reasons.  The moral and religious reason being the non-aggression principle, which I believe is a religious principle.




> As for my ethical reasoning for vegetarianism, it definitely falls into the non-aggression pact of trying to minimize the pain and suffering of that which can feel it(ie: animals with central nervous systems).


I figured this was the reason you made this decision, because you've been a huge proponent of the non-aggression principle.  When you think about the non-aggression principle deeply enough, it only makes sense to apply it to all aspects of your life, including your diet.  Glad to see you connected the dots.

As for oils, do not cook flax oil... it burns very easily and heat destroys it, it is meant to be taken cold.  Vegetable based oils that are good are the ones mentioned by Acala, coconut and palm oils.  I buy olive oil in bulk.  Ghee is like nectar from the gods, though.  It can be expensive if bought (usually about $1 per ounce), but cheap if made at home by cooking butter slowly on low heat until it is an oil, then straining the butter solids out with a doubled over cheese cloth set into a fine strainer.  Trust me... you'll like it!  It can be used at high temperatures and won't burn, too.  And you can reuse the strained butter solids on toast if you want.

----------


## dannno

> Definitely get the olive oil in large containers it cuts the cost/oz down significantly.  Also, olive oil has a low smoke point, you don't want to burn it so use it on relatively low heat.   coconut oil is also good for you and can work as a substitute for baking as it is solid at room temperature like butter/margarine.   I'll leave the hemp oil question for dannno.


Hemp oil is probably way too expensive (due to it being illegal to grow here, and highly restricted in countries that allow it), I don't know if I've even seen it anywhere for sale. 

Coconut oil is awesome, ESPECIALLY for desserts, but it's kind of impractical at times because it is so hard (much harder than butter.. it's hard to get out of the container, even with a knife, and I always feel like i'm going to injur myself). Maybe somebody can help me out as to how to make the stuff more practical...obviously I'm refrigerating it, should I not do that? How long will it last?

But I've been grilling a lot of veggies lately on my mangrate (cast iron grate for bbqing, great addition to your bbq if you have the cheap clothes hanger style grill grate), and I use this coconut oil spray to season the grate, and I spray it on all my veggies which is good for flavor and helps attach seasonings.



I actually could only find this stuff at ONE health food store in town, which is ridiculous because there are soo many god damn health food stores here that sell Spectrum oils. Even regular coconut oil is a bit hard to find and seems to be really expensive, which is annoying considering how healthy it is.

----------


## Created4

> No, a lot of Buddhists and Hindus are vegetarian. It has nothing to do with western culture and everything to do with religion. I keep hearing these arguments, but they don't make any sense to me.


I was not commenting on vegetarianism, but the volumes of research regarding soy, and the fact that it has never been a major part of traditional diets. The American soybean industry changed that. It has nothing to do with Buddhists or Hindus.

----------


## Created4

> Even regular coconut oil is a bit hard to find and seems to be really expensive, which is annoying considering how healthy it is.


Coconut oil is easier than ever to find, and depending on which kind you get, it does not have to be expensive, especially if you watch the sales: http://www.tropicaltraditions.com/vi...oconut_oil.htm

----------


## specsaregood

> Coconut oil is awesome, ESPECIALLY for desserts, but it's kind of impractical at times because it is so hard (much harder than butter.. it's hard to get out of the container, even with a knife, and I always feel like i'm going to injur myself). Maybe somebody can help me out as to how to make the stuff more practical...obviously I'm refrigerating it, should I not do that? How long will it last?


The stuff we get doesn't have to be refrigerated.
This is what we use:
http://www.wildernessfamilynaturals....oconut-oil.php

And from their FAQ:
From :http://www.wildernessfamilynaturals....oconut-oil.php



> *How should I store my Virgin Coconut Oil? Does it need to be refrigerated?*
> 
> Because Wilderness Family Naturals' coconut oil has such low moisture content, no break down products or contaminants, it is very stable.  Therefore, it is not necessary to refrigerate this oil.
> 
>  If you do refrigerate coconut oil it will become "hard as a rock" and you will need to warm the oil in order to scoop any out of the jar. The most important thing to consider when deciding how you will store your coconut oil is to keep it out of direct sunlight or high heat. I would not recommend a damp place such as moist basements. Over time, with repeated exposure to mold spores, you may get some growth in the oil.  The best place to store coconut oil is a cupboard or closet that does not become overly hot in the summer.
> 
> *A pantry, closet or shelf in your kitchen will work fine. At room temperature, your virgin coconut oil will easily last 2 years in your pantry. The manufacturers say it has a 3 year shelf life.*


Of course we keep a big gallon on hand of it because it also works well on baby butts to prevent diaper rash.  and lasts forever.

----------


## sratiug

Straining the solids out of butter is just throwing away good food.  Saturated fat is good for you.  Butter is good for you.  Margarine on the other hand is very bad for you.  

Carbs don't increase your metabolism, they decrease it.  Starvation produces hormones that make you feel good... for awhile.  Just some food for thought.

----------


## dannno

> I was not commenting on vegetarianism, but the volumes of *research regarding soy, and the fact that it has never been a major part of traditional diets*. The American soybean industry changed that. It has nothing to do with Buddhists or Hindus.


Ya, I've heard people _say_ that but I don't believe that based on what I've seen and read and experienced. At all. I think it is completely unfounded and made up. I would suggest you look for more evidence, or if you have some give me some actual evidence rather than just statements.





> Chinese legend ascribes its invention to prince Liu An (Chinese: 劉安, 179 BC – 122 BC). Tofu and its production technique were introduced into Korea and then Japan[7][8][9] during the Nara period. It also spread into other parts of East Asia as well.[10] *This spread likely coincided with the spread of Buddhism because it is an important source of protein in the vegetarian diet of East Asian Buddhism*.[7]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tofu






> Buddha's delight, often transliterated as Luóhàn zhāi, lo han jai, or lo hon jai, is a vegetarian dish well known in Chinese and Buddhist cuisine. It is sometimes also called Luóhàn cài (simplified Chinese: 罗汉菜; traditional Chinese: 羅漢菜).
> 
> The dish is traditionally enjoyed by Buddhist monks who are vegetarians, but it has also grown in popularity throughout the world as a common dish available as a vegetarian option in Chinese restaurants.
> 
> *In China, Hong Kong and Toronto, when served exclusively using only the most flavor-packed vegetarian ingredients, such as pickled tofu or sweet bean curds*, it is known as tián suān zhāi (simplified Chinese: 甜酸斋; traditional Chinese: 甜酸齋; pinyin: tian2 suan1 zhai1; literally "sweet and sour vegetarian dish").
> [edit] Tradition
> 
> As suggested by its name, it is a dish traditionally enjoyed by Buddhists who are vegetarians, but it has also grown in popularity throughout the world as a common dish available in Chinese restaurants (though often not including all of the ingredients) as a vegetarian option. *It is traditionally served in Chinese households on the first day of the Chinese New Year, stemming from the old Buddhist practice that one should maintain a vegetarian diet in the first five days of the new year, as a form of self-purification.*



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha%27s_delight





> Tempeh (/ˈtɛm.peɪ/), *or tempe (Indonesian), is a traditional soy product originally from Indonesia.* It is made by a natural culturing and controlled fermentation process that binds soybeans into a cake form, similar to a very firm vegetarian burger patty. Tempeh is unique among major traditional soy foods in that it is the only one that did not originate in the Sinosphere.
> 
> *It originated in today's Indonesia, and is especially popular on the island of Java, where it is a staple source of protein.* Like tofu, tempeh is made from soybeans, but tempeh is a whole soybean product with different nutritional characteristics and textural qualities.[1] *Tempeh's fermentation process and its retention of the whole bean give it a higher content of protein, dietary fiber, and vitamins*. It has a firm texture and an earthy flavor which becomes more pronounced as the tempeh ages.[2][3] Because of its nutritional value, tempeh is used worldwide in vegetarian cuisine; some consider it to be a meat analogue.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempeh

----------


## Acala

> but in our early history I doubt you'd see a early human(before use of tools) chasing down and hunting other creatures. More likely, a early human would use scavenged meat as a small addition to his diet. Of course I have nothing to back this up via books or studies or anything, this is just my belief.


Check it out, dude: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting

This is why a man can run down almost any animal on earth.  This is why you have an Achiles tendon, giant glutes (no offense), and real-time biocomputer stabilized, load adjusting, spring loaded, shock absorbing feet.      




> A quick question on oils. I love cooking with olive oil as often as possible, it's expensive though. That's why I end up using vegetable oils more often than not. Is there a similarly priced alternative, and with palm and flax/hemp oils do they cook similarly to olive oil?


Coconut oil and palm oil.  Palm oil should be cheaper.  Try the Asian or African market.

----------


## dannno

http://dietchoices.com/diet-plans/buddhist-diet/





> Background
> 
> The Buddhist Diet can best summed up in one word which is vegetarian. However, with that said, it is important to state that there are no hard rules. Vegetarianism has become closely associated with the Buddhist Diet, but it is not an absolute. Buddhists believe in non-violence and to this end, many Buddhists refrain from consuming meat. As a general rule, a large percentage of Buddhists are vegetarians. A diet based largely on fruits and vegetables is one that is often sited as being a healthy one that likely increases life span.
> What to Eat
> 
> Those on the Buddhist Diet will often focus on vegetables and fruits. *Wheat and soy are also common staples of the diet.* Considering the nutritional benefits of a largely fruit and vegetable diet, the Buddhist Diet has a great deal to offer.

----------


## jmdrake

> Danno, the soy used in Asian diets is not the variety popular here.  It's almost all fermented soy, and is high-protein, low-estrogen.


You mean like tempeh? 



For the record I substituted tempeh for tofu in a vege fajita recipe the other day.  I liked it better and it was faster to prepare because I didn't need to drain and bake it first like I have to for tofu.

----------


## dannno

Ya, see, I love tempeh as well, and one of the things that bother me about the anti-soy people is they don't come out and say, "don't eat soy beans, but if you're going to eat soy eat tempeh and maybe some tofu.."

No, they try and say that ALL of the soy here in the U.S. is bad for you and nobody in Asia really ate soy anyway. Well the fact is that it's not impossible to get good soy here and some Asians have been eating a lot of soy for some time. That's what I don't like about the anti-soy propaganda, it doesn't try and fix the problem or reduce people's intake, it tries to steer people completely away from soy.. and it's a vegetarian complete source of protein, which is very hard to find. 

I'm not one to throw the baby out with the bath water (as Britney from 'Glee' would say, "OMG! I've totally done that before..)

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Vessol, I am very glad that you are choosing 'The Non-Aggression Principle Diet'.  I'm glad to hear you chose the Non-Aggression Principle Diet too, Bryan!  +rep to both!  Applying the non-aggression principle (a principle which I firmly believe originates from ancient religion, and is known as _ahimsa_ in Sanskrit) is quite a liberating experience -- especially karmicly, and spiritually.  I don't consider eggs to be vegetarian (though dairy is), but it's a step closer towards it.
> 
> I do not understand why The Non-Aggression Principle Diet so often attracts unwarranted attacks from those who do not follow or understand it, but don't let it bother you!  I tend to dislike discussing the subject because people often baselessly attack the idea that humans can be just as healthy without flesh, but if it can be discussed civilly without attacks, that would be enjoyable.  There is a nice informative book called "You Don't Need Meat", and another titled "The China Study" which show how meat is purely optional, and never a nutritional requirement for any human of any blood type.  DISCLAIMER:  I am not saying it is wrong or less healthy to eat meat, feel free to eat meat if you desire, but just realize that is not eaten for health reasons -- it is eaten purely for the taste preference and that's fine, but it is important to understand that there is nothing in meat that the human body requires that is not easily found in plants or milk.  Anyway, arguing against the vegetarian diet in a thread about becoming vegetarian is a distraction from the topic, and is off topic.  It would be nice to stay on topic.
> 
> Anyway, back on topic -- the non-aggression principle, or ahimsa, applies to all living entities.  It is easier to realize this from a religious or spiritual understanding, which I believe involves a more full and detailed understanding of the ethics or karma behind applying the non-aggression principle to one's every action and diet.  The spirit/soul is what animates the body with life; without spirit/soul, a body would be a dead, lifeless lump of flesh.  The same kind of spirit/soul that animates humans, animates all other living entities in the same way, thus compassion for all living entities and not just for other humans makes sense in a religious or spiritual context.  This is explained nicely in the following verse:
> 
> 
> 
> It goes deeper still, into spiritual philosophy, which is explained nicely by the Vedas.  All religions can appreciate the non-aggression principle, and the diet which results from following it.  Though it is more clearly expounded upon in some religions more than others, the essence of the instruction is there in all.


Except from a biblical perspective, there is a basis for treating humans from all other living organisms.  God shows us in the Bible that He values us above all animals.  This makes sense, since we are clearly the only animal that is truly aware of itself and capable of abstract thought.  Without God, in fact, there is no basis for the non-agression principle.  Simply appealing to "religion" doesn't provide a basis because nobody knows who is making this rule.  From a Biblical perspective, however, there is a basis for the non-agression principle and a treatment of humans above all other living organisms.  

Just my view on it and why I thinkthe non-agression principle or "religious perspective" is not quite enough.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> What is your blood type?
> 
> 
> Also curious about the OP's, I thought I had asked.


I don't know what my blood type is.  I don't follow the blood type diet, though.  I come from the perspective that we are all naturally frugivores (nuts, seeds, fruits, and veggies).

----------


## dannno

> I don't know what my blood type is.  I don't follow the blood type diet, though.  I come from the perspective that we are all naturally frugivores (nuts, seeds, fruits, and veggies).


If you're A+ and a vegetarian diet works best for you, then you are following the blood type diet without knowing it.. However again I have to emphasize that I don't think blood type is a rule, it is a rule of thumb to help guide people or understand why certain diets work for them. I'm just asking to get more results. The biggest result I've gotten so far is that it turns out a lot of people don't know their own blood type.

I don't doubt we have an achilles tendon so we can run really really far and chase down partially hunted animals, but I also don't doubt that many people went off long, long ago and started farming grains, eating dairy, etc.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> As far as smoking cigs, I was also smoking 1-3 cigs (not packs) a day for a few years, but have gone to 6-10 cigs a year for the last 7 or 8 years. I don't find that one every once in a while is bad, especially if they are American Spirits. The problem comes when I have 2 or 3 in a single day or night, or if I'm having one a night for 2 or 3 nights, then I notice a difference in my lung function for sure. I have asthma though. I know of a few (very, very few) super athletes who some how are able to overcome cig smoking and still be the best in their highly strenuous sport.


Yes, Chris Chattaway is a great example (4:02 mile after Roger Bannister was the first to break 4 minutes and a 5000meter world record holder, I believe).  Those are outliers, though.  It really all depends on how you are genetically able to deal with toxins in your system.

----------


## Guitarzan

> Except from a biblical perspective, there is a basis for treating humans from all other living organisms.  God shows us in the Bible that He values us above all animals.  This makes sense, since we are clearly the only animal that is truly aware of itself and capable of abstract thought.



That's easy for you to say, after all, you're a human being. 

You'd never hear a chicken speak those words. In fact, you'll never see a chicken beating his spouse or dealing drugs to kids. That's because they're good people too.

----------


## specsaregood

> I don't doubt we have an achilles tendon so we can run really really far and chase down partially hunted animals, but I also don't doubt that many people went off long, long ago and started farming grains, eating dairy, etc.


And the different blood types just happened to appear as humans moved and evolved.  O is the oldest blood type.  The A blood type appeared first in areas where farming grains became the standard fare.  The B type first appeared in nomadic herding cultures (mongolians) which relied heavily on dairy products.     At least that is theory behind it,it could be hogwash but it is an interesting idea.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> If you're A+ and a vegetarian diet works best for you, then you are following the blood type diet without knowing it.. However again I have to emphasize that I don't think blood type is a rule, it is a rule of thumb to help guide people or understand why certain diets work for them. I'm just asking to get more results. The biggest result I've gotten so far is that it turns out a lot of people don't know their own blood type.
> 
> I don't doubt we have an achilles tendon so we can run really really far and chase down partially hunted animals, but I also don't doubt that many people went off long, long ago and started farming grains, eating dairy, etc.


The problem with this whole idea of "chasing down animals" is that most people take it from an evolutionary perspective.  It's pretty easy to look at what is already there and justify it from n evolutionary perspective, but your Achilles tendon could easily have been created for the same reason, so assuming an evolutionary perspective doesn't really give you much information.  A creation perspective satisfies the same questions as to why we have what, but takes a completely different view on what is RIGHT for the body to consume.  It's not based on a historical idea that we should eat what we've evolved to eat, but rather what suits our system and our livelihood to the fullest possible extent and gives us the most energy and vitality.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> That's easy for you to say, after all, you're a human being. 
> 
> You'd never hear a chicken speak those words. In fact, you'll never see a chicken beating his spouse or dealing drugs to kids. That's because they're good people too.


That made absolutely no sense.

1) Chickens don't speak for a reason.  They don't beat their kids because they are not aware of the difference between good and evil, which is very evident in the human psyche.  
2) Chickens are not people.

----------


## Acala

> I don't doubt we have an achilles tendon so we can run really really far and chase down partially hunted animals, but I also don't doubt that many people went off long, long ago and started farming grains, eating dairy, etc.


Yup.  And from that evolved the coercive state.  Agriculture was the mother of tyranny.  Not to mention shorter, unhealthier people with bad teeth.  But I said I wasn't going down that road.

----------


## dannno

> And the different blood types just happened to appear as humans moved and evolved.  O is the oldest blood type.  The A blood type appeared first in areas where farming grains became the standard fare.  The B type first appeared in nomadic herding cultures (mongolians) which relied heavily on dairy products.     At least that is theory behind it,it could be hogwash but it is an interesting idea.


Yes, that's the jist of it. So the question is, if your father is A and your mother is O or B, and you turn out A, is it possible to end up with a digestive system that can handle meat or dairy very well? I think the answer could be yes. On the other hand, if one of your parents is A, then your other parent has a chance of being A or some other blood type, and you end up A, then you are more likely to be able to handle grains and such than any other particular type (assuming 50% chance of grains, 50% chance split between each other type), but perhaps it is possible to end up being able to handle meat and dairy. 

The question is whether the blood has anything to do with it, or if it is merely incidental that the blood type changed along with the diet.

----------


## Acala

> In fact, you'll never see a chicken beating his spouse.  That's because they're good people too.


Spoken like a man who has never been around chickens.  Roosters beat up on each other and on the hens mercilessly.  And the hens beat up on the other hens.  Chickens make pretty good livestock and I love fresh eggs.  But if a human being behaved like a chicken, you would label him a dangerous psychotic.

----------


## Guitarzan

> Spoken like a man who has never been around chickens.  Roosters beat up on each other and on the hens mercilessly.  And the hens beat up on the other hens.  Chickens make pretty good livestock and I love fresh eggs.  But if a human being behaved like a chicken, you would label him a dangerous psychotic.



LOL...probably. but you still never see them dealing in the drugs. 

Anywhoo...yeah, PaulConventionWV, that was an attempt at a joke. I should've noted as much; I forgot that these internets are serious business.

----------


## dannno

> Yup.  And from that evolved the coercive state.  Agriculture was the mother of tyranny.  Not to mention shorter, unhealthier people with bad teeth. * But I said I wasn't going down that road.*

----------


## dannno

> LOL...probably. but you still never see them dealing in the drugs.


For the record, dealing drugs isn't really a good analogy since we are talking about voluntary transactions. 

Worse is big pharma who profits off of using force to limit the ability of people to choose what type of medicines they wish to use. Often allowing and selling more dangerous alternatives.

And yes, this is very serious business.

----------


## specsaregood

//

----------


## Acala

> LOL...probably. but you still never see them dealing in the drugs. 
> 
> Anywhoo...yeah, PaulConventionWV, that was an attempt at a joke. I should've noted as much; I forgot that these internets are serious business.


Hehehehe!  I knew you were joking but just thought we could use some chicken lore.

----------


## Acala

Sorry.  I'm kinda out of the loop when it comes to tv culture references.  But I know South Park drawing style when I see it!  I think . . .

----------


## Guitarzan

> For the record, dealing drugs isn't really a good analogy since we are talking about voluntary transactions. 
> 
> Worse is big pharma who profits off of using force to limit the ability of people to choose what type of medicines they wish to use. Often allowing and selling more dangerous alternatives.
> 
> And yes, this is very serious business.



Wow...I can tell this is serious. My post had nothing to do with 'voluntaryism', nor was it meant to. It really didn't have anything to do with this thread. It was a joke Dannno. Get it? Joke? 

And since I just admitted that I broke what is probably a rule of the forum, I didn't mean to derail your thread. I'll just slip out now. Take care.

----------


## Acala

> highlight of my childhood was when me and my cousin and bro stood up to the mean ass rooster on my grandpappy's farm.  the mean sumbitch had been chasing us around all summer and we had had enough.   we cornered the bastard and 3 little boys instinctively knew that whipping out our willies and pissing on him was the best insult we could possibly deliver.   good times...


Hahahahaha!  This is the unapproved method for adjusting a rooster's attitude.  The APPROVED method is to grab them by the feet and carry them around upside down for a while.

----------


## Acala

> Wow...I can tell this is serious. My post had nothing to do with 'voluntaryism', nor was it meant to. It really didn't have anything to do with this thread. It was a joke Dannno. Get it? Joke? 
> 
> And since I just admitted that I broke what is probably a rule of the forum, I didn't mean to derail your thread. I'll just slip out now. Take care.


Hey don't go bro!  Just pulling your leg.  I liked your joke.  For a second I had an image of a chicken in a "wife-beater" t-shirt.

----------


## ChaosControl

One thing to note is that most American diets are too high in protein. Protein supplements are not really needed in a healthful vegetarian or vegan diet. Especially not needed in a vegetarian diet since you'll still be consuming eggs and dairy.

I actually get the upper limit of how much you're supposed to get, even on a vegan diet, since my multi vitamin mix has a Pea protein supplement in it. So, really don't worry about needing extra protein in a vegetarian diet.

----------


## dannno

> Wow...I can tell this is serious. My post had nothing to do with 'voluntaryism', nor was it meant to. It really didn't have anything to do with this thread. It was a joke Dannno. Get it? Joke? 
> 
> And since I just admitted that I broke what is probably a rule of the forum, I didn't mean to derail your thread. I'll just slip out now. Take care.


lol, c'mon man, I was joking about it being serious

----------


## nicoleeann

i eat a primal diet and it's been the best thing in the world for me. Here are some things that i always avoid: gluten, grains especially corn, soy products, yeast products, sugary products including fruit and especially juice. dairy is alright for me and i do like butter. i work at a health food store and i've noticed that alot of the vegans tend to get a little....androgenous over time. they tend to have bad breath and are either too thin or too fat. but i'm sure it works for some people.

----------


## dannno

What's your blood type?




> i eat a primal diet and it's been the best thing in the world for me. Here are some things that i always avoid: gluten, grains especially corn, soy products, yeast products, sugary products including fruit and especially juice. dairy is alright for me and i do like butter. i work at a health food store and i've noticed that alot of the vegans tend to get a little....androgenous over time. they tend to have bad breath and are either too thin or too fat. but i'm sure it works for some people.


Not sure where the bad breathe comes from, maybe they eat more garlic and onions.

What if the vegans tend to start out more androgynous? Also, people become more androgynous as they age. Warriors back in the day ate a lot of meat, and were typically type O. The exception was Roman Gladiators, who ate a lot of grains and calcium. They were probably type O and this was simply away to fatten them up. The purpose of getting them really big and strong, but also fat, was that they could take more sword wounds without injuring vital organs so they could stay alive longer in the pit.

But my point is that people who are healthier on a vegan diet are not the 'warrior' type, they are the agrarian type, so they will naturally be more androgynous.


Also checkout this thread:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...*s-you-f*****s!!

It's about some MMA fighters who have gone vegetarian and are training better and winning fights. This TENDS to give me the impression that the people on here saying that nobody has to eat meat MIGHT be right.. or these particular fighters are not the type O.

----------


## nicoleeann

well one girl my age that works there is on a raw vegan diet and she started out looking thin but still pretty, but now she's very flat chested with some fuzz on the upper lip. i know that a variety of diets work for a variety of people. In my opinion the worst thing for us humans (and most animals) is grains and soy. This goes for vegetarians and meat eaters. that is why i only eat grassfed meat. Also one thing i forgot to mention is i avoid all foods high in estrogen: soy, flax, beans, and seeds. this works best for me.

----------


## dannno

> well one girl my age that works there is on a raw vegan diet and she started out looking thin but still pretty, but now she's very flat chested with some fuzz on the upper lip. i know that a variety of diets work for a variety of people. In my opinion the worst thing for us humans (and most animals) is grains and soy. This goes for vegetarians and meat eaters. that is why i only eat grassfed meat. Also one thing i forgot to mention is i avoid all foods high in estrogen: soy, flax, beans, and seeds. this works best for me.


Ya, see, grains and soy is what helped me lose 65 lbs and get back into shape. I went from a blob to being told by a girl I looked like "Superman" one time when I had my shirt off (I have to admit it was pretty dark). If I eat meat even once then I start to gain it back no matter how much I exercise. If anything I became less androgynous after I became vegetarian, but I was kinda androgynous to start out with.

Is it possible your friend you work with stopped wearing wonder bras or something that accentuated her breasts? Maybe she stopped shaving her upper lip, which was something she'd always done before? Some people become more earthy when they go vegetarian or vegan.

----------


## Vessol

> Check it out, dude: 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting
> 
> This is why a man can run down almost any animal on earth.  This is why you have an Achiles tendon, giant glutes (no offense), and real-time biocomputer stabilized, load adjusting, spring loaded, shock absorbing feet.


Yeah I've seen a video of that before, but I was talking about humans before the use of primitive too, in the example used there a spear was used. I can't see humans actively hunting and killing beasts with just their hands and teeth.

As for the endurance and running capability,  I imagine those came in handy when our ancestors were running the $#@! away from other predators.

But really, to me it's a non-point, just my ideas on the matter.

----------


## Created4

I gave a link with research from an Asian doctor. And you reply with wikipedia?? The research on soy is legion, and it is NOT from wikipedia opinions. Plenty of links to research (hundreds) from these links:
http://www.westonaprice.org/soy-alert
http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/
http://search.mercola.com/search/pag...lts.aspx?k=soy




> Ya, I've heard people _say_ that but I don't believe that based on what I've seen and read and experienced. At all. I think it is completely unfounded and made up. I would suggest you look for more evidence, or if you have some give me some actual evidence rather than just statements.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tofu
> 
> 
> 
> ...

----------


## sevin

> i eat a primal diet and it's been the best thing in the world for me. Here are some things that i always avoid: gluten, grains especially corn, soy products, yeast products, sugary products including fruit and especially juice. dairy is alright for me and i do like butter. i work at a health food store and i've noticed that alot of the vegans tend to get a little....androgenous over time. they tend to have bad breath and are either too thin or too fat. but i'm sure it works for some people.


I'm with you. I saw the Fathead movie and later read The Primal Blueprint and have gone paleo for the last few months. I've only lost a little weight as I still get plenty of carbs from fruits and veggies, but I've put on some muscle and I've never felt better!

----------


## dannno

> I gave a link with research from an Asian doctor. And you reply with wikipedia?? The research on soy is legion, and it is NOT from wikipedia opinions. Plenty of links to research (hundreds) from these links:
> http://www.westonaprice.org/soy-alert
> http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/
> http://search.mercola.com/search/pag...lts.aspx?k=soy


Wikipedia has sources as well, and I am saying that you are being either accidentally or purposely dishonest by saying that soy is not a common food staple in many Asian cultures.

It may be true that soy in large doses causes SOME PEOPLE to have problems assimilating various nutrients, or increasing estrogen levels, perhaps people who are not inclined toward the vegetarian diet. Or it may all be a lie propagated by the anti-vegetarian lobby. You have to grow a lot of grains to feed non-grass fed meat... a lot more grains that you would have to grow just to feed a human. There are interests who don't want people to be vegetarian.

----------


## dannno

> I'm with you. I saw the Fathead movie and later read The Primal Blueprint and have gone paleo for the last few months. I've only lost a little weight as I still get plenty of carbs from fruits and veggies, but I've put on some muscle and I've never felt better!


Ya my roommate had the opposite experience, did paleo for a few months and now has gone veggie and is feeling a lot better.

I'm damn near positive that different people excel on vastly different diets.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Is it possible your friend you work with stopped wearing wonder bras or something that accentuated her breasts? Maybe she stopped shaving her upper lip, which was something she'd always done before? Some people become more earthy when they go vegetarian or vegan.


Breast tissue is mostly fat.  Losing weight can definately make them smaller.

----------


## ChaosControl

Oh and my blood type is O and I haven't eaten meat since I was 6. I rarely ever get sick. The only times I've ever gotten sick is when I both eat really bad for a couple weeks and there is a sickness going around that everyone is getting.

I can recall in my child hood that I faked sick to stay home far more than I actually was sick.

I don't know if there is something to the blood type aspect of diets or not. Maybe, but then they say I shouldn't eat Strawberries as a type out and I'm sooner going to become a communist than give up strawberries.

Since I'm on a mostly raw organic vegan diet, I have a lot more energy. I haven't really changed my exercise since changing diets, yet I still have more energy. Although I don't probably eat enough. My favorite foods are dairy and grains and since I cut out dairy completely and am limiting grains, it makes it harder for me to get enough calories.

But my diet is mostly fruits and vegetables, I try to get maybe 5 servings of veggies to 4 of fruit; seeds (sunflower, pumpkin, flax, those are the only three I can get organic locally); beans (lentils and pinto mainly, I need to get more variety here); brown rice and whole wheat spaghetti. I have some organic whole wheat bread I buy that's quite good, but since I'm trying to eat mostly raw, and I usually have one cooked meal a day already with the beans or spaghetti/rice, it kind of makes it so such is not an option. I also have a multi vitamin mix which works quite well for me, I absorb it far better than the pill vitamins.

I think vegetables is probably the most important part of the diet and the part that most people don't get enough of. I saw people mention the vitamix, I have one of those too. It is a great easy way to get all your vegetables and fruit servings in one meal pretty quickly. My only issue lately is I've been trying this Food Combing thing where you're not supposed to eat certain combinatrions of food based on how it digests. Bad combinations like protein + carbs or fruit + anything else, supposedly give indigestion and other problems since they digest at different rates. I don't know if there is any legitimacy to it though, just as I don't know if the blood type thing has any. I'm not about to ever eat meat to find out if it'd affect me positively or negatively.

In the end though, I suppose just find what works for you. Does X result in you having more energy throughout the day, get sick less often, look younger/more vibrant? Then you're probably good to go.

I stopped eat meat when I really thought about what it was. Heck, turkey since it has such a strong smell actually makes me sick.

I'm going to have a challenge since I'm going to Asia though, supposedly. Although since I don't eat out, I'll probably be okay.

----------


## ChaosControl

Oh and regarding Soy. Perhaps some of the issue on that is because something like 90% of US Soybeans are GMO.

If you're consuming organic Soy, you don't have to worry about that as much. Organic Tofu I think is good for you, good source of protein. It is nice because you can make scramble tofu as a substitute for eggs, it also works good in fruit smoothies, and to make kind of fake meat steaks and such.

----------


## dannno

> Oh and my blood type is O and I haven't eaten meat since I was 6. I rarely ever get sick. The only times I've ever gotten sick is when I both eat really bad for a couple weeks and there is a sickness going around that everyone is getting.


Ya I seem to recall you are one of the few exceptions I have heard about, but again I don't think it's a rule as much as a rule of thumb (good guess as to your genetic background)





> I'm going to have a challenge since I'm going to Asia though, supposedly. Although since I don't eat out, I'll probably be okay.


Lots of vegetarians in asia, though everyone else seems to be pretty meat/rice/noodle oriented.. the language barrier might be an issue though.

----------


## Yieu

> Straining the solids out of butter is just throwing away good food.  Saturated fat is good for you.  Butter is good for you.  Margarine on the other hand is very bad for you.


I don't think you've ever had ghee before.  Otherwise you'd realize how delicious and healthy it is.  

Straining out the butter solids clarifies, or purifies the butter into ghee.  The saturated fats are not strained out, they go through the cheesecloth.  Butter contains 65-80% fat, but ghee is almost entirely composed of fat from the butter, the non-fat substances in butter are what is strained out, to give a more pure fatty oil.

The smoking point of butter is 150 °C (302 °F), the smoking point of ghee is 250 °C (482 °F), so it can be used for deep frying without burning the oil, whereas butter burns easily when using it to cook with.  And you don't have to throw away the strained butter solids, you can spread it on toast, and if you used salted butter to make the ghee, you can use the solids instead of salt anywhere you would use salt.




> Carbs don't increase your metabolism, they decrease it.  Starvation produces hormones that make you feel good... for awhile.  Just some food for thought.


Starvation mode is called ketosis -- and ketosis is what happens when you don't have enough carbs in your diet.  The goal of low carb diets is ketosis, and the reason they cause weight loss, is because the carb-starved diet puts your body into starvation mode, also known as ketosis.  What you are saying, pretty much the opposite is true.  Carbs are our primary source of energy, followed by fat and then protein.  Carbs are needed for a healthy brain, and cells require carbs in order to take in nutrients properly.

----------


## Yieu

> Except from a biblical perspective, there is a basis for treating humans from all other living organisms.  God shows us in the Bible that He values us above all animals.  This makes sense, since we are clearly the only animal that is truly aware of itself and capable of abstract thought.  Without God, in fact, there is no basis for the non-agression principle.  Simply appealing to "religion" doesn't provide a basis because nobody knows who is making this rule.  From a Biblical perspective, however, there is a basis for the non-agression principle and a treatment of humans above all other living organisms.  
> 
> Just my view on it and why I thinkthe non-agression principle or "religious perspective" is not quite enough.


I'm not really sure what you're trying to say.  It sounds like you're saying the non-aggression principle is not religious and is religious at the same time, and the last sentence seems to imply that there could possibly be something above or greater than God.

Perhaps you are trying to think of the difference between "religion" and "devotion to God/spirituality"?  I'm not really sure.  Perhaps it would help you understand the words I said if you understood I converted from Christianity to Hinduism, so when I speak of religion I speak from a Hindu perspective, but I believe most of what I say can apply to all religious faiths.

This part as me especially confused:




> Without God, in fact, there is no basis for the non-agression principle.  Simply appealing to "religion" doesn't provide a basis because nobody knows who is making this rule.


How I read it:  Without God, the non-aggression principle could not exist.  With God, there is no non-aggression principle.

My best interpretation is that you are confusing my usage of the word religion.  I often use the word religion and mean devotion to God, or our relationship with God.  Often people associate the word religion with "organized religion", which is why I also used the word spiritual so that this type of confusion would not happen.

I really have no idea what you are trying to say.  The non-aggression principle is there very clearly in the Hindu religious texts (the Vedas), and the non-aggression principle means having a non-aggression principle diet.

Perhaps you were trying to say the non-aggression principle, a religious principle, has nothing to do with being vegetarian?  If that is what you thought, then it just needs more explaining because that is how it is.  Vedic scripture tells us to follow the non-aggression principle, which applies to all living beings.  Because scripture instructs us this way, the non-aggression principle is religious.  The non-aggression principle diet means following the Lord's instruction, so it is indeed a religious observance.

I am not vegetarian for health reasons.  I am vegetarian for religious reasons, and those religious reasons are 1) observance of the Lord's instruction to only eat what has been first offered to Him, and to only offer him vegetarian foods and 2) observance of the religious principle of non-aggression, also an instruction of the Lord.  And in response to the last sentence in your post, I believe devotion to the Lord is the ultimate goal of life, so I don't need a reason beyond religion/spirituality/devotion to the Lord (whatever terminology you prefer) -- it is more than enough for me.

----------


## Created4

I see. So we move away from the evidence and research that you said was lacking, and now deal with your opinion and your accusation that I am being dishonest. Soy is part of traditional Asian cultures, but it has not been a "staple" in those cultures traditionally. It is only recently that soy consumption has increased. I am married to an Asian and have lived many years in Asia. I provided you with the research on the dangers of soy. Deal with the research and the millions of people who have had their health damaged by soy rather than resorting to personal opinions and attacks to support your position.




> Wikipedia has sources as well, and I am saying that you are being either accidentally or purposely dishonest by saying that soy is not a common food staple in many Asian cultures.
> 
> It may be true that soy in large doses causes SOME PEOPLE to have problems assimilating various nutrients, or increasing estrogen levels, perhaps people who are not inclined toward the vegetarian diet. Or it may all be a lie propagated by the anti-vegetarian lobby. You have to grow a lot of grains to feed non-grass fed meat... a lot more grains that you would have to grow just to feed a human. There are interests who don't want people to be vegetarian.

----------


## Created4

GMO soy is certainly part of the problem, but not all of it. Soy is a plant estrogen, and estrogen markers in our modern diet and society have sky rocketed, not just due to the increase in soy consumption, but from other sources as well (such as BPA in plastic.) This results are young girls going into puberty at a much younger age (especially if they were raised on soy formula instead of breast milk), boys having decreased sperm production, women becoming hypothyroid, and a whole host of other problems. You will still have this problem of a plant based estrogen in organic soy. Certain soy products are new in the food chain, such as soy oil which only started post World War II with expeller-pressed seed technology, which introduced polyunsaturated oils from soy and corn. Soy oil is now about 90 percent of all vegetable oil consumed in the US, leaving a huge supply of soy residue left over from the production of soy oil that had to be marketed. This soy meal goes into our animal feeds and other soy foods. The result is that today, it is nearly impossible to avoid soy. You eat it whether you want to or not. If you eat eggs, for example, you are eating soy protein because tests confirm the soy protein is in the egg yolk due to the high concentration of soy meal in all commercial (including organic) chicken feeds (see: the research link at the bottom of this page: http://www.grassfedtraditions.com/or..._free_eggs.htm). So just switching to organic soy does not solve the problem of too much soy in our diet and all the negative effects from too much estrogen.




> Oh and regarding Soy. Perhaps some of the issue on that is because something like 90% of US Soybeans are GMO.
> 
> If you're consuming organic Soy, you don't have to worry about that as much. Organic Tofu I think is good for you, good source of protein. It is nice because you can make scramble tofu as a substitute for eggs, it also works good in fruit smoothies, and to make kind of fake meat steaks and such.

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## Yieu

Well, you don't need soy to be vegetarian.  No one needs soy, in the same way that no one needs meat.  Both meat and soy are optional.  There are plenty of other beans out there to have if you don't want either meat or soy.  Legumes are healthy and delicious!  Ever try dal?  Mung dal is awesome, it's a kind of lentil bean, and any kind of bean with rice are a complete protein.  That's the funny thing about the whole "complete protein" deal -- most things you'd have to eat together to make a "complete protein" are things you would naturally prepare together.  Peanut butter and bread.  Rice and beans.  There is no shortage of bio-available protein for any type of diet, unless all you eat is fruit.

----------


## Acala

> I 
> Starvation mode is called ketosis -- and ketosis is what happens when you don't have enough carbs in your diet.  The goal of low carb diets is ketosis, and the reason they cause weight loss, is because the carb-starved diet puts your body into starvation mode, also known as ketosis.  What you are saying, pretty much the opposite is true.  Carbs are our primary source of energy, followed by fat and then protein.  Carbs are needed for a healthy brain, and cells require carbs in order to take in nutrients properly.


Okay.  This is simply NOT true.  Your body was NOT made to run on carbs.  And dietary carbs are NOT needed for ANYTHING.  Your body can MAKE carbs as needed.  But your body CANNOT make fats.  So actually what you are saying is just the opposite of the established fact.  You can live without carbs in the diet if you get enough fat and protein.  The eskimos do this very nicely, thank you.  Without enough fat or protein you die.

Furthermore, your brain does NOT need dietary carbs at all.  Your body can make all the glucose your brain needs from fats.  Additionally, your brain can run perfectly well on ketones, which your body can also make.  What your body cannot make, that is needed for brain health, is certain fatty acids.  Without them, you will suffer brain shrinkage (as many vegans do) and ultimately disfunction and death.  So, again, dietary fat is essential.  Dietary carbs are not.     

And ketosis is a perfectly natural process, NOT starvation mode.  Starvation would be accompanied by ketosis, but the presence of ketosis does not equate with starvation.     

By the way, where do you think primitive man got this steady stream of carbs you consider essential?   

Really, I don't want to trash your diet.  It is your life and your body.  But if you are going to post stuff that is not just a matter of opinion but is totally WRONG as a matter of established scientific fact, I am going to rebut.

If you want SCIENCE instead of conjecture, try this:

http://www.ajcn.org/content/75/5/951.2.full

Sheesh.

----------


## dannno

> I see. So we move away from the evidence and research that you said was lacking, and now deal with your opinion and your accusation that I am being dishonest. Soy is part of traditional Asian cultures, but it has not been a "staple" in those cultures traditionally. It is only recently that soy consumption has increased. I am married to an Asian and have lived many years in Asia. I provided you with the research on the dangers of soy. Deal with the research and the millions of people who have had their health damaged by soy rather than resorting to personal opinions and attacks to support your position.


I said you were either being purposely *or accidentally* dishonest by saying that it is has not been a staple in many portions of Asian culture which are vegetarian. 

It's true that it's not a staple in ALL of Asian cultures, but in the vegetarian portions of said culture it is a staple and prevalent, always has been. I posted plenty of links showing that these foods have been prevalent in vegetarian Asian cultures, specifically strict Buddhist and Hindu cultures, for thousands of years.

All you have done is said that they aren't, and posted some studies on soy. In fact, HB posted a bunch of studies on soy and half of them were about the positive effects of soy on cancer. I can tell you that this is from not eating meat, eating a lot of meat when you have cancer is bad for most people because your body needs enzymes to digest protein, and if they are in short supply due to eating a lot of meat, then you don't have enough enzymes to digest the outer protein walls of the cancer so that your body can naturally fight off the cancer using your own immune system.

----------


## sevin

Why Do Most Vegetarians Go Back To Eating Meat?

----------


## Acala

> eating a lot of meat when you have cancer is bad for most people because your body needs enzymes to digest protein, and if they are in short supply due to eating a lot of meat, then you don't have enough enzymes to digest the outer protein walls of the cancer so that your body can naturally fight off the cancer using your own immune system.


Hahahahahaha!  Oh, please.  Are you really saying that the digestive enzymes in your saliva, stomach, and colon that help to break down meat in your alimentary canal are the same enzymes involved in your body's anti-cancer activity?  And that using them in your alimentary canal makes them unavailable in other parts of your body?  That is simply ridiculous.

Or are you saying that so much protein is used in making the enzymes to break down meat that there is not enough left to make enzymes purportedly breaking down cancer cells?  Also ridiculous, unless you are suffering from serious protein deficiency, in which case eating meat would be the best thing you could do.   

By the way, did you know that enzymes are catalysts?  Did you know that catalysts, by definition, are not consumed in the reactions they are involved in?  They just facilitate one reaction and then move on to the next.  In other words, when the enzymes are done breaking down meat in your colon, they could then rush through the colon wall and zip over to your brain tumor and start breaking it down.  No need for your body to make more.

----------


## Yieu

> Really, I don't want to trash your diet.  It is your life and your body.  But if you are going to post stuff that is not just a matter of opinion but is totally WRONG as a matter of established scientific fact, I am going to rebut.
> 
> If you want SCIENCE instead of conjecture, try this:
> 
> http://www.ajcn.org/content/75/5/951.2.full


Thank you for not wanting to attack myself or my diet, because mutual respect for each others' way of life (and religion) is something I believe is very important.

Thank you for that article as well, it shows that carbohydrates are important for the optimal function of the central nervous system; they are also important for cellular respiration.  I thought I had read somewhere that they are involved in the cell membrane's nutrient absorption as well, but perhaps I was thinking of cellular respiration.

I would like to note that I did not say that it was impossible to live without carbohydrates.  I just said that it is involved with the brain and cellular intake of important substances.  It is true that the body can get that from fat, I do not deny that.  But I figure it might be somewhat better to get the necessary carbohydrates from at least some level of carbohydrate intake, as a prolonged state of ketosis may be suboptimal, there is some controversy over it.

Humans of all kinds can live without carbohydrates, without meat, and without soy.  All of those things are a personal choice whether you wish to include them in your diet.

----------


## Revolution9

> Why Do Most Vegetarians Go Back To Eating Meat?


I went back because I use my brain and muscles alot to earn a living and the vegetarian diet was not capable of sustaining the levels of energy I needed. Plus..it broke my teeth, caused my nails to start splitting and fracturing. I needed two naps a day plus nighttime sleep. I now get the most well marbled ribeyes I can find, make sure I eat all the fat I can get from a meal without adding, eliminated almost all grains and I feel like a million bucks again. I wasted so many years trying to be PC and ignoring the debilitating effects. Now..if someone has been eating total crap..mystery meaf miocrowaved tacos, nitrite loaded processed meats, dough conditioner addled breads and pizzas etc, then I would recommend a veggie diet to cleanse, but then go for grass fed beef, range roaming chicken and high oxygen fish to rebuild debilitated muscle and brain tissues and reinsulate the myelin sheaths around nerve fibers and restore the density of the bones.. Saturated fat..mmmmm.

Rev9

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## Acala

> Should entire environments of fertile habitat be eliminated to accommodate monoculture fields of grain? The mice, groundhogs, chipmunks etc. get killed by the plows, the raptor birds then have less food. The birds of hedgerows and forest edges get eliminated. Agricultural runoff poisons the streams killing high oxygen needing fishes and crawdads. So all you spouters of non-aggression are absolutely full of it and cannot reason beyond your plate of food. You are selfish and self righteous. Your passive aggressive BS is in full play in the above scenario. Monoculture kills.
> 
> Rev9


Agriculture was the worst thing that ever happened to this planet and the worst thing that ever happened to the human race, at least as far as health and freedom are concerned.

Ha!  My rejection of all conventional wisdom is almost complete!

----------


## Yieu

> Why Do Most Vegetarians Go Back To Eating Meat?


Why do non-vegetarians feel a need to attack vegetarians just for how they chose to eat even when the vegetarians do not push it onto others?

Do they feel threatened by vegetarians in some way, or are they just being mean for the fun of it?




> Should entire environments of fertile habitat be eliminated to accommodate monoculture fields of grain? The mice, groundhogs, chipmunks etc. get killed by the plows, the raptor birds then have less food. The birds of hedgerows and forest edges get eliminated. Agricultural runoff poisons the streams killing high oxygen needing fishes and crawdads. So all you spouters of non-aggression are absolutely full of it and cannot reason beyond your plate of food. You are selfish and self righteous. Your passive aggressive BS is in full play in the above scenario. Monoculture kills.
> 
> Rev9


Okay, now that's just taking it to extremes.  Using an extreme example (who would eat only grains?) and throwing in an ad hominem that is simply not true.

This is why I don't like threads on vegetarianism.  They always end up being a game of who can most strongly attack and insult the vegetarians for their voluntary choice.

Why can't we just practice voluntary non-aggression in peace, without getting attacked by non-vegetarians?  Is that so bad?

You know what would be really nice?  A thread on vegetarianism without any responses attacking or insulting vegetarians for their voluntary choice, without people claiming it's 'unhealthy' or chiming in to note their support of meat eating.  It's off topic and it's not respectful.

----------


## Acala

> Why do non-vegetarians feel a need to attack vegetarians just for how they chose to eat even when the vegetarians do not push it onto others?
> 
> Do they feel threatened by vegetarians in some way, or are they just being mean for the fun of it?


By way of background, I was a vegetarian for many years.  I now eat primal and have never been happier with my diet.

But my experience has been that vegetarians are BY FAR the more aggressive when it comes to promoting their diet and criticizing the diet of others.  I'm not saying you are, but in general.

----------


## Revolution9

> Why do non-vegetarians feel a need to attack vegetarians just for how they chose to eat even when the vegetarians do not push it onto others?
> 
> Do they feel threatened by vegetarians in some way, or are they just being mean for the fun of it?


Most of us you refer to are probably sick and goddamned tired of the veggie corps climbing all over our asses with lies, painting us as murderers, acting like science has your back by cherry picking and ignorance or ignoring, your sheer and utter hypocrisy in acting as though your lifestyle has no negative impact anywhere which is palpably untrue to the utmost degree. Also I may suggest that the cross the board hypocrisy of your types is ludicrous and needs calling out, especially on public forums where you may inculcate another human into eating an ungulate diet to their and the environments detriment.

I was a vegetarian. I fully regret it as I have about 35,000 worth of damage to my teeth I have to fix if I want chewing surfaces without false teeth.

HTH
Rev9

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## Yieu

> By way of background, I was a vegetarian for many years.  I now eat primal and have never been happier with my diet.
> 
> But my experience has been that vegetarians are BY FAR the more aggressive when it comes to promoting their diet and criticizing the diet of others.  I'm not saying you are, but in general.


Yes, I understand that there are some vegetarians, often newbies who are lashing out as a result of feeling bad about their previous diet that included meat.  I was once one of them for a little while, then I grew up and matured and came to understand that part of the point is becoming more peaceful, because it is all about the non-aggression principle, and for me, religion, and religion is all about peace, mutual respect, getting along, and doing unto others as you would have them do unto you.

So I do not push my diet onto others, I refuse to.  I will reluctantly discuss it.  Reluctantly, because even though I have no desire to push my ways onto others, once you mention vegetarianism, _immediately_ all the non-vegetarians come after you with vicious attacks, _even_ when I make sure I note in each post that I do not desire to push my ways on anyone or judge them, and everyone is free to eat as they please.

It gets old after a while.  There is no need or reason for such hostility.  I wish the vegetarians that act aggressive toward meat eaters would not do so, but I also would like to not be attacked for my way of life just for living it!

What's so bad about letting me live how I want without bashing me for it, and I'll let you live how you want without bashing you for it?  Why is that so hard?

----------


## Yieu

> Most of us you refer to are probably sick and goddamned tired of the veggie corps climbing all over our asses with lies, painting us as murderers, acting like science has your back by cherry picking and ignorance or ignoring, your sheer and utter hypocrisy in acting as though your lifestyle has no negative impact anywhere which is palpably untrue to the utmost degree. Also I may suggest that the cross the board hypocrisy of your types is ludicrous and needs calling out, especially on public forums where you may inculcate another human into eating an ungulate diet to their and the environments detriment.


So because some other people, who are NOT here, treated you poorly, you feel the need to bash me for being as peaceful and accepting as is possible?

Please... stop... you are reacting to attacks that never happened and it is uncalled for.  Seriously.  I am not attacking you, do NOT attack me, please?

This is why I used to not participate in threads on vegetarianism.  It ends up just being a bunch of non-vegetarians bashing vegetarians, and even in the post I've quoted you're directly insulting me even though I am NONE of the things you claim, if you knew me.  Is it just fun to bash someone?  I'd prefer if we all could just respect each other's ways... please...

I won't bash you, don't bash me.

----------


## dannno

> Why Do Most Vegetarians Go Back To Eating Meat?


Because, as I've said many times on this thread, only a minority of the population excels on a vegetarian diet. Less than 30% of the population is type A (or has the typical Type A digestive system)

This is not to say that some other blood types (or the associated digestive system) can't be vegetarian, but they won't excel on that diet.

----------


## dannno

> Hahahahahaha!  Oh, please.  Are you really saying that the digestive enzymes in your saliva, stomach, and colon that help to break down meat in your alimentary canal are the same enzymes involved in your body's anti-cancer activity?  And that using them in your alimentary canal makes them unavailable in other parts of your body?  That is simply ridiculous.
> 
> Or are you saying that so much protein is used in making the enzymes to break down meat that there is not enough left to make enzymes purportedly breaking down cancer cells?  Also ridiculous, unless you are suffering from serious protein deficiency, in which case eating meat would be the best thing you could do.   
> 
> By the way, did you know that enzymes are catalysts?  Did you know that catalysts, by definition, are not consumed in the reactions they are involved in?  They just facilitate one reaction and then move on to the next.  In other words, when the enzymes are done breaking down meat in your colon, they could then rush through the colon wall and zip over to your brain tumor and start breaking it down.  No need for your body to make more.


Actually G. Edward Griffin says this:

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ_4YkekV9A

I suggest watching the series.

That doesn't mean that everybody who eats a lot of meat will get cancer. I'd be willing to bet that people who have Type O blood are more likely to have more of these digestive enzymes and get less cancer with a heavy meat diet as compared to others.

----------


## Acala

> Actually G. Edward Griffin says this:
> 
> Part 1
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ_4YkekV9A
> 
> I suggest watching the series.
> 
> That doesn't mean that everybody who eats a lot of meat will get cancer. I'd be willing to bet that people who have Type O blood are more likely to have more of these digestive enzymes and get less cancer with a heavy meat diet as compared to others.


Then Edward Griffin is a dope.  I'm not making any claims one way or the other about cancer and meat eating here.  But if he thinks that the enzymes used to digest meat in the gut are somehow the same enzymes that attack cancer, he doesn't know what he is talking about.  There are so many reasons why that is not happening that I don't have time to list them all.  But as a threshold matter, any enzyme that breaks down the cell cell membranes of meat in your gut and also cell membranes of cancer cells in your body will also break down healthy cell membranes in your body.  Remember, cancer cells are nearly identical to your own healthy cells.  That is why they are so troublesome for your body.  The differences are so slight that your immune system doesn't recognize the cancer as alien.  And enzymes are relatively dumb, compared to immunological factors.  The proteolytic enzymes that break down meat in your gut are simply unable to distinguish cancer cells from healthy cells.  And that is assuming that the enzymes produced in your gut would somehow appear elsewhere inside your body (your gut is not actually inside your body - it is a tube passing through your body).

----------


## ChaosControl

> GMO soy is certainly part of the problem, but not all of it. Soy is a plant estrogen, and estrogen markers in our modern diet and society have sky rocketed, not just due to the increase in soy consumption, but from other sources as well (such as BPA in plastic.) This results are young girls going into puberty at a much younger age (especially if they were raised on soy formula instead of breast milk), boys having decreased sperm production, women becoming hypothyroid, and a whole host of other problems. You will still have this problem of a plant based estrogen in organic soy. Certain soy products are new in the food chain, such as soy oil which only started post World War II with expeller-pressed seed technology, which introduced polyunsaturated oils from soy and corn. Soy oil is now about 90 percent of all vegetable oil consumed in the US, leaving a huge supply of soy residue left over from the production of soy oil that had to be marketed. This soy meal goes into our animal feeds and other soy foods. The result is that today, it is nearly impossible to avoid soy. You eat it whether you want to or not. If you eat eggs, for example, you are eating soy protein because tests confirm the soy protein is in the egg yolk due to the high concentration of soy meal in all commercial (including organic) chicken feeds (see: the research link at the bottom of this page: http://www.grassfedtraditions.com/or..._free_eggs.htm). So just switching to organic soy does not solve the problem of too much soy in our diet and all the negative effects from too much estrogen.


Yeah there can be too much consumption. And yes, I don't thin it should be fed to animals. If I drank milk, there is a local dairy that has grass fed/organic cows. That is definitely the best way to go for that. And I use almond milk for milk, not soy. I mainly only consume soy as a substitute treat. Like a soy chocolate milk once in a while or a soy icecram. Although coconut icecream works too, but its even more expensive. All organic of course.

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## ChaosControl

> By way of background, I was a vegetarian for many years.  I now eat primal and have never been happier with my diet.
> 
> But my experience has been that vegetarians are BY FAR the more aggressive when it comes to promoting their diet and criticizing the diet of others.  I'm not saying you are, but in general.


You know, I see these topics come up a lot in various places. I ALWAYS see the meat eaters make the claim that the vegetarians are the aggressive ones pushing their view on others. But what is the thread 90% of? Meat eaters bashing/making fun of vegetarians. Most vegetarians choose their choice as an option. The type that are like PETA are a very small minority. It is a myth that the vegetarians are the more aggressive ones.

----------


## Created4

Well said. I purposely avoided the whole vegetarian argument and concentrated what I wrote on the dangers of soy, which are real and well documented. Here is a great article posted today by Dr. Mercola on spirulina which has more protein than red meat, and is the type of food Asian cultures have eaten for thousands of years: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...-heard-of.aspx

The problems caused by soy and estrogen dominated health problems are very real. There is more soy in our diets today, including Asian cultures, than ever before. Anyone who ignores these problems are putting their health at great risk.




> Well, you don't need soy to be vegetarian.  No one needs soy, in the same way that no one needs meat.  Both meat and soy are optional.  There are plenty of other beans out there to have if you don't want either meat or soy.  Legumes are healthy and delicious!  Ever try dal?  Mung dal is awesome, it's a kind of lentil bean, and any kind of bean with rice are a complete protein.  That's the funny thing about the whole "complete protein" deal -- most things you'd have to eat together to make a "complete protein" are things you would naturally prepare together.  Peanut butter and bread.  Rice and beans.  There is no shortage of bio-available protein for any type of diet, unless all you eat is fruit.

----------


## Yieu

> Well said. I purposely avoided the whole vegetarian argument and concentrated what I wrote on the dangers of soy, which are real and well documented. Here is a great article posted today by Dr. Mercola on spirulina which has more protein than red meat, and is the type of food Asian cultures have eaten for thousands of years: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...-heard-of.aspx
> 
> The problems caused by soy and estrogen dominated health problems are very real. There is more soy in our diets today, including Asian cultures, than ever before. Anyone who ignores these problems are putting their health at great risk.


Yes, spirulina is a wonderful food.  Cheese has more protein per ounce than red meat, too.  Spinach has tons of vitamins.  There are plenty of plant sources of nutrition out there.

----------


## ChaosControl

> This is not to say that some other blood types (or the associated digestive system) can't be vegetarian, *but they won't excel on that diet.*


Incorrect.
In the end someone can excel on either a vegetarian or a non vegetarian diet. The important thing is overall nutrition.
If the meat eater is consuming a lot of beef and pork mainly, that isn't healthful for them. If they however stick to lean meats and still get fruits, vegetables, beans, nuts, etc then they are going to do well. Likewise a vegetarian who eats potato chips, cheese, and burritos is going to do poorly, while a vegetarian who has a healthful balanced diet of fruits, vegetables, beans, nuts, and whole grains, they will excel.

Most diets that show some kind of progress is because the diet in general moved in the direction of being a more balanced diet. It is like that food combining thing, most people experience improvements on that. Why? Because their overall diet becomes more balanced as they eat more vegetables and less grains and fats.

One problem too many people fall into is eating for weight loss instead of overall health, and they do so for short term results. A diet needs to be a lifestyle, not something you do for three weeks. And you'll naturally lose set in at the appropriate weight over time. But, that isn't really a good money making fad like the whole nonsense high protein minimal carb diets.

----------


## Yieu

> You know, I see these topics come up a lot in various places. I ALWAYS see the meat eaters make the claim that the vegetarians are the aggressive ones pushing their view on others. But what is the thread 90% of? Meat eaters bashing/making fun of vegetarians. Most vegetarians choose their choice as an option. The type that are like PETA are a very small minority. It is a myth that the vegetarians are the more aggressive ones.


Thank you!  This has been my experience in most vegetarian threads too.  It is extremely frustrating.  Some posts containing much more offensive and direct personal attacks were deleted in the last few posts, but none of it is called for, reasonable, on topic, or acceptable.  There is no need or reason for attacks, when we can just mutually co-exist and get along with each others voluntary choices.  Thank you for being a voice of reason, it was getting to be too much.

----------


## sratiug

> I don't think you've ever had ghee before.  Otherwise you'd realize how delicious and healthy it is.  
> 
> Straining out the butter solids clarifies, or purifies the butter into ghee.  The saturated fats are not strained out, they go through the cheesecloth.  Butter contains 65-80% fat, but ghee is almost entirely composed of fat from the butter, the non-fat substances in butter are what is strained out, to give a more pure fatty oil.
> 
> The smoking point of butter is 150 °C (302 °F), the smoking point of ghee is 250 °C (482 °F), so it can be used for deep frying without burning the oil, whereas butter burns easily when using it to cook with.  And you don't have to throw away the strained butter solids, you can spread it on toast, and if you used salted butter to make the ghee, you can use the solids instead of salt anywhere you would use salt.
> 
> 
> 
> Starvation mode is called ketosis -- and ketosis is what happens when you don't have enough carbs in your diet.  The goal of low carb diets is ketosis, and the reason they cause weight loss, is because the carb-starved diet puts your body into starvation mode, also known as ketosis.  What you are saying, pretty much the opposite is true.  Carbs are our primary source of energy, followed by fat and then protein.  Carbs are needed for a healthy brain, and cells require carbs in order to take in nutrients properly.


It's true, I don't know what the hell ghee is, so I'll take your word for it.  Carbs, on the other hand, convert to sugar.  Only a small portion of carbs can be burned as fuel if you exercise strenuously immediately after eating.  I understand that sugar is only used as a fuel by fermentation, an anaerobic process.  Otto Warburg received the Nobel Prize for proving that any cell converts to cancer when deprived of oxygen.  The more efficient your cells are at utilizing sugar as fuel the closer they are to cancer.

Fat is the primary fuel of humans.  Instead of eating carbs to be converted to fat to fuel your body it is far more efficient and healthy to eat fat in the first place so you don't need massive the massive insulin response to prevent you from dying from too much sugar in your blood stream which causes an overload on the 1% of your pancreas designed for that purpose.

----------


## Yieu

> It's true, I don't know what the hell ghee is, so I'll take your word for it.


If you like butter, you're missing out until you've used ghee!  It's really really awesome.




> Otto Warburg received the Nobel Prize for proving that any cell converts to cancer when deprived of oxygen.


Better eat at least a little carbohydrates then, because they help cell membranes with oxygen respiration.

----------


## Acala

> You know, I see these topics come up a lot in various places. I ALWAYS see the meat eaters make the claim that the vegetarians are the aggressive ones pushing their view on others. But what is the thread 90% of? Meat eaters bashing/making fun of vegetarians. Most vegetarians choose their choice as an option. The type that are like PETA are a very small minority. It is a myth that the vegetarians are the more aggressive ones.


It may be a myth.  I made no claim to knowledge of the world at large - just MY experience.  And my experience is as stated.

----------


## dannno

> Well said. I purposely avoided the whole vegetarian argument and concentrated what I wrote on the dangers of soy, which are real and well documented. Here is a great article posted today by Dr. Mercola on spirulina which has more protein than red meat, and is the type of food Asian cultures have eaten for thousands of years: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...-heard-of.aspx
> 
> The problems caused by soy and estrogen dominated health problems are very real. There is more soy in our diets today, including Asian cultures, than ever before. Anyone who ignores these problems are putting their health at great risk.


You're still not being reasonable about this topic at all. I never said that every vegetarian needs to go out and eat a bunch of soy every day and get all of their protein from soy. 

I eat spirulina every god damn day, I take the maximum recommended dose. I eat protein from many different sources, including brewer's yeast which contains essential B vitamins. That doesn't mean that soy needs to be avoided, there are plenty of Asian cultures that used soy as one of their staples for protein. It's a very good protein source, but I don't recommend it be anybody's single source for protein. There is nothing wrong with soy in moderation. Asians used to eat it quite a bit, and you have not shown ONE single shred of evidence that soy was not one of the staples of many vegetarian asian cultures for thousands of years whereas I have shown evidence that it was.

----------


## Yieu

> It may be a myth.  I made no claim to knowledge of the world at large - just MY experience.  And my experience is as stated.


I believe it is a myth, and the attacks and insults on us here are unfounded.  There is no reason for it.  At the very least, it is not deserved here, where we all believe things should be voluntary.  It's kind of like there being a whole bunch of peaceful non-violent protestors, then some government agent provocateurs come in with black masks, dressed as black bloc, and starts destroying property, and people blame the peaceful protestors and yell at THEM.  Don't attack the peaceful people, if you have a problem with someone who is actually attacking, take it up with them personally, don't attack vegetarianism as a whole or us peaceful folk who just want to get along without getting bashed just for eating differently.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Ya, see, grains and soy is what helped me lose 65 lbs and get back into shape. I went from a blob to being told by a girl I looked like "Superman" one time when I had my shirt off (I have to admit it was pretty dark). If I eat meat even once then I start to gain it back no matter how much I exercise. If anything I became less androgynous after I became vegetarian, but I was kinda androgynous to start out with.
> 
> Is it possible your friend you work with stopped wearing wonder bras or something that accentuated her breasts? Maybe she stopped shaving her upper lip, which was something she'd always done before? Some people become more earthy when they go vegetarian or vegan.


I really, really doubt that being flat-chested or having facial hair has anything to do with being vegan.

----------


## Acala

> But, that isn't really a good money making fad like the whole nonsense high protein minimal carb diets.


Hahahahaha!  You whine about people attacking your diet and then you say this!

Actually, if you want to look at the big picture, it is the carb-drenched diet of the modern man that is the "fad" since it has not existed for most of human history and pre-history.  The NORMAL carb diet that prevailed for most of human existence, and which is now called low carb, would have consisted primarily of low carb vegetables, MEAT, eggs, shell fish, insects, a few nuts, and a little seasonal fruit.  Very little grain, very few legumes, no dairy.  The fad of stuffing our faces with grain and legumes and dairy didn't come around until about 10,000 years ago - accompanied by a dramatic reduction in lifespan, height, and health.  That's what the fossil record shows.  

Just as bad is the even more recent fad of soaking our food in extracted vegetable oils.      

And, by the way, the only people who profit from my primal lifestyle are the local growers of organic produce and the ranchers who raise my grass-fed, grass-finished beef.  

But you should by all means eat what the government tells you to eat.  It leaves more of the good stuff for me.

----------


## specsaregood

> The fad of stuffing our faces with grain and legumes and dairy didn't come around until about 10,000 years ago - accompanied by a dramatic reduction in lifespan, height, and health.  That's what the fossil record shows.


Wait a minute.  How long do you claim people lived on average 10k years ago? How tall do you claim the average height was 10k years ago?   Health, well thats hard to say, why do you say they were healthier 10k years ago?

----------


## Acala

> I believe it is a myth, and the attacks and insults on us here are unfounded.  There is no reason for it.  At the very least, it is not deserved here, where we all believe things should be voluntary.  It's kind of like there being a whole bunch of peaceful non-violent protestors, then some government agent provocateurs come in with black masks, dressed as black bloc, and starts destroying property, and people blame the peaceful protestors and yell at THEM.  Don't attack the peaceful people, if you have a problem with someone who is actually attacking, take it up with them personally, don't attack vegetarianism as a whole or us peaceful folk who just want to get along without getting bashed just for eating differently.


That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?  

Several peaceful vegetarians have made some very broad, critical remarks about MY diet in this thread and others.  Others have made claims that are false about nutrition.  They should all expect to have their claims and statement challenged.  No need for vitriol, but there IS a need to challenge unsupported claims.

----------


## Acala

> Wait a minute.  How long do you claim people lived on average 10k years ago? How tall do you claim the average height was 10k years ago?   Health, well thats hard to say, why do you say they were healthier 10k years ago?


The fossil record shows that the average human height dropped over five inches and the average lifespan was shortened by about 30% with the advent of agriculture with the neolithic era.  Additionally, neolithic fossil remains show a higher incidence of arthritis and other degenerative disease that leave traces on bone. Tooth decay also increased dramatically.

One theory is that it was the tooth decay (from impacted flour)and wear(from erosion due to grinding stone residue in the flour) that lead to malnutrition which lead to the general decline in health.  Another theory is that the toxins in the grain and legumes caused inflammation and other problems.  A third theory is that it was the carbs.

----------


## Acala

> The fossil record shows that the average human height dropped over five inches and the average lifespan was shortened by about 30% with the advent of agriculture with the neolithic era.  Additionally, neolithic fossil remains show a higher incidence of arthritis and other degenerative disease that leave traces on bone. Tooth decay also increased dramatically.
> 
> One theory is that it was the tooth decay (from impacted flour)and wear(from erosion due to grinding stone residue in the flour) that lead to malnutrition which lead to the general decline in health.  Another theory is that the toxins in the grain and legumes caused inflammation and other problems.  A third theory is that it was the carbs.


edit: oh, and to answer your question, once they survived infancy, the average paleolithic man lived nearly as long as modern men.  It was not until the last hundred years or so that modern man caught up to paleolithic man in lifespan.

When the Europeans first encountered the hunter/gatherers of the Northern American plains, they were the tallest people in the world.

I am not making this stuff up.  It came as a shock to me when I first read it.  It had a big influence on my subsequent conversion to the primal lifestyle.

Here:
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/life-...nter-gatherer/

But the first place I heard about this was in a lecture about the origins of civilization.  When the guy said that about the loss of stature and lifespan with the onsel of the neolithic I was like "wut?"  Agriculture made people LESS healthy?  Blew my mind.

----------


## specsaregood

> The fossil record shows that the average human height dropped over five inches and the average lifespan was shortened by about 30% with the advent of agriculture with the neolithic era.  Additionally, neolithic fossil remains show a higher incidence of arthritis and other degenerative disease that leave traces on bone. Tooth decay also increased dramatically.
> 
> One theory is that it was the tooth decay (from impacted flour)and wear(from erosion due to grinding stone residue in the flour) that lead to malnutrition which lead to the general decline in health.  Another theory is that the toxins in the grain and legumes caused inflammation and other problems.  A third theory is that it was the carbs.


You happen to have any sources on hand that aren't specifically related/promoting paleolithic eating diets?

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> The fossil record shows that the average human height dropped over five inches and the average lifespan was shortened by about 30% with the advent of agriculture with the neolithic era.  Additionally, neolithic fossil remains show a higher incidence of arthritis and other degenerative disease that leave traces on bone. Tooth decay also increased dramatically.
> 
> One theory is that it was the tooth decay (from impacted flour)and wear(from erosion due to grinding stone residue in the flour) that lead to malnutrition which lead to the general decline in health.  Another theory is that the toxins in the grain and legumes caused inflammation and other problems.  A third theory is that it was the carbs.


Basing your diet on an evolutionary paradigm and the idea that humans should eat what they've always eaten is simply a false premise.  There is such a thing as feeding your body what it needs and what is right for it, and what it can use.  This whole idea that you can just look at what your "ancestors" ate is pure baloney, and yet you parade it around as if it were a given and that everyone should treat it as fact.  Then, you bash everyone who disagrees with you and laugh at them because you think it's silly that anyone could fathom you being wrong.  I think you are claiming to know about the world at large by citing "the fossil record" and thinking you can decipher some sort of optimal diet based on it.  What utter rubbish.

----------


## Acala

> You happen to have any sources on hand that aren't specifically related/promoting paleolithic eating diets?


I'll see what I can dig up.  But that guy usually has citations to supporting science.

----------


## BeautifulWorld

> It doesn't make you gay, it makes you break out in vaginas until you turn into a giant pussy, derrrr...


*I believe it! Meat does a body good.*

----------


## Acala

> Basing your diet on an evolutionary paradigm and the idea that humans should eat what they've always eaten is simply a false premise.  There is such a thing as feeding your body what it needs and what is right for it, and what it can use.  This whole idea that you can just look at what your "ancestors" ate is pure baloney, and yet you parade it around as if it were a given and that everyone should treat it as fact.  Then, you bash everyone who disagrees with you and laugh at them because you think it's silly that anyone could fathom you being wrong.  I think you are claiming to know about the world at large by citing "the fossil record" and thinking you can decipher some sort of optimal diet based on it.  What utter rubbish.


Who did I bash other than Ed Griffin?  I am arguing ideas here.  If that makes you feel threatened, well, too bad.  Don't participate.

So, for those who care about reason and ideas, here is the "false premise" upon which I am operating:

Human beings evolved to operate optimally in the environment in which they evolved.  That is how evolution works.  The system keeps getting tweeked to make most beneficial use of the resources at hand and to avoid as effectively as possible the risks presented.  This is why animals that live in the ocean evolve to eat food that appears in the ocean and don't evolve to eat pine nuts.

We have a pretty good idea, based on remains in the trash piles of paleolithic humans, that they were eating vegetables, meat, shellfish, fish, some nuts, seeds, and fruit.  No grain.  No legumes.  There is no evidence that they would have had any access to any significant quantity of those things since they only became available with agriculture later in human history.  So the theory is that human beings evolved to make optimal use of what was at hand -   vegetables, meat, shellfish, fish, some nuts, seeds, and fruit - and didn't bother to evolve the ability to use things that were not available.  This is efficient.  Why evolve the ability to eat things you never eat?  

So, since natural selection concerning diet seems to have halted with the neolithic age, except those who were killed by grain and legumes before reproducing, we have essentially paleolithic bodies.  If you want an animal to thrive, you try to give it as much as possible its natural diet and environment.  If you accept that humans evolved in an environment free of grain and legumes then you would strive to feed them a similar diet.

And if you think paleolithic humans didn't eat meat, come to Tucson and I will take you to a fossil dig and show you the remains of an imperial mammoth with Clovis spear points still in among the bones. 

That's the theory.  If you don't like it, that's cool with me.  It suits my way of thinking better than the religious approach or pseudo-science about electromagnetic energy.  

And my own personal experience has been stunning.

----------


## Acala

> You happen to have any sources on hand that aren't specifically related/promoting paleolithic eating diets?


If you are interested, the wikipedia article is actually pretty good:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_diet

Here is a pretty good breakdown of height and longevity.  It doesn't support the size of the decrease in longevity I previously reported.  Still a decrease.

http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w...-1984-1a.shtml

Here is one from Lew Rockwell (but it is pulled off Mark's Daily Apple)

http://www.lewrockwell.com/sisson/sisson59.1.html

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Who did I bash other than Ed Griffin?  I am arguing ideas here.  If that makes you feel threatened, well, too bad.  Don't participate.
> 
> So, for those who care about reason and ideas, here is the "false premise" upon which I am operating:
> 
> Human beings evolved to operate optimally in the environment in which they evolved.  That is how evolution works.  The system keeps getting tweeked to make most beneficial use of the resources at hand and to avoid as effectively as possible the risks presented.  This is why animals that live in the ocean evolve to eat food that appears in the ocean and don't evolve to eat pine nuts.
> 
> We have a pretty good idea, based on remains in the trash piles of paleolithic humans, that they were eating vegetables, meat, shellfish, fish, some nuts, seeds, and fruit.  No grain.  No legumes.  There is no evidence that they would have had any access to any significant quantity of those things since they only became available with agriculture later in human history.  So the theory is that human beings evolved to make optimal use of what was at hand -   vegetables, meat, shellfish, fish, some nuts, seeds, and fruit - and didn't bother to evolve the ability to use things that were not available.  This is efficient.  Why evolve the ability to eat things you never eat?  
> 
> So, since natural selection concerning diet seems to have halted with the neolithic age, except those who were killed by grain and legumes before reproducing, we have essentially paleolithic bodies.  If you want an animal to thrive, you try to give it as much as possible its natural diet and environment.  If you accept that humans evolved in an environment free of grain and legumes then you would strive to feed them a similar diet.
> ...


You can get "results" with many different diets, but it doesn't mean you're healthy.

Obviously, you don't understand that I'm not just saying you're wrong to base your diet on that.  I'm saying evolution itself is not a basis for anything.  It's false.  However, I'm not here to argue about evolution.  I'm saying you and me come to our conclusions based on two completely different mindsets about the world.  Yours is based on evolutionary history, so you derive everything off of what you think you know about evolution.  I come to it based on how the body was designed.  

The problem I am seeing here is that you keep asserting that your diet is right because of the way you interpret evolutionary history, but you just assume that the evolutionary premise is true.  If it's not true, then your whole idea about health and diet don't apply anymore.  That's what I'm saying.  Your view of how you came to be affects your health decisions, and that's fine by me.  Just don't try to tell me that your diet principles apply to everyone because you base it on something that you take for granted as true.  Many people here don't take that as true, so if you are going to say that everyone's diet is based on evolutionary history, then you're going to have to prove that evolution itself is true.  I'm not talking about natural selection and mutations.  I'm talking about your purported history of mankind in the fossil record.  If you're going to base your diet on that, then you have to assume that evolution itself, which the fossil record is based on, is true.

----------


## dannno

> *I believe it! Meat does a body good.*


I was being sarcastic.. it's from a South Park episode.

Meat is horrible for my system. I believe it is good for many people, though.

----------


## Arklatex

Semi vegetarian here, it's can be really hard but it's worth it.  Your body chemistry will change, and after that its easier.  I used to get tired if I didn't eat meat, now though it's the opposite.

Thank god for Avocados, Sweet Potatoes, Hemp, Pecans, Eggplant, Okra, Kidney Beans, all fruits and Whole Wheat cereal.

----------


## dannno

> Semi vegetarian here, it's can be really hard but it's worth it.  Your body chemistry will change, and after that its easier.  I used to get tired if I didn't eat meat, now though it's the opposite.
> 
> Thank god for Avocados, Sweet Potatoes, Hemp, Pecans, Eggplant, Okra, Kidney Beans, all fruits and Whole Wheat cereal.


Thank god for Avocados, Apples, Black Beans, Broccoli, Cauliflower, Cheese, Dill, Dates, Eggs, Eggplant, Fishes, Garlic, Grapes, Hummus, Honey, Ice Cream, Kale, Kiwi, Lentils, Limes, Mangos, Mushrooms, Nuts, Oats, Onions, Papayas, Peanuts, Rice, Rasberries, Soy, Spinach, Tea, Tofu, Vanilla, Vinegar, Yogurt and Zanzibar!!

----------


## specsaregood

//

----------


## Tina

*You don't want to do that without researching the facts and fats first.
*(Keep in mind this is not about farm fed meat, but organic grass fed animals.)

*Fats and brain size*

The evidence was already overwhelming that we could not be a vegetarian species. However, in 1972 the publication of two independent investigations really nailed the lid on the vegetarian hypothesis's coffin. The first concerned fats (9) .

About half our brain and nervous system is composed of complicated, long-chain, fatty acid molecules. The walls of our blood vessels also need them. Without them we cannot develop normally. These fatty acids do not occur in plants. Fatty acids in a simpler form do but they must be converted into the long-chain molecules by animals - which is a slow, time-consuming process. This is where the herbivores come in. Over the year, they convert the simple fatty acids found in grasses and seeds into intermediate, more complicated forms that we can convert into the ones that we need.

Our brain is considerably larger than that of any ape. Looking back at the fossil record from early hominids to modern man, we see a quite remarkable increase in brain size. This expansion needed large quantities of the right fatty acids before it could have occurred. It could never have occurred if our ancestors had not eaten meat. Human milk contains the fatty acids needed for large brain development - cow's milk does not. It is no coincidence that in relative terms, our brain is some fifty times the size of a cow's.

The vegetarian will be dismayed to learn that while soya bean is rich in complete protein, and grains and nuts also combine to provide complete proteins, none contains the fats that are essential for proper brain development.

Although the eating of fats today is believed by some to be a cause of heart disease (erroneously, see The Cholesterol Myth ), we know that our ancestors ate large amounts of fat. Animal skulls are broken open and the brains scooped out; long bones likewise are broken for their marrow content. Both brain and marrow are very rich in fat.

*Toxicity of raw vegetables*

The second investigation (10) concerned the inedibility of many of today's plant foods in the raw state which contain many anti-nutrients that can damage a wide variety of human physiological systems. These antinutrients include alkylrescorcinols, alpha-amylase inhitors, protease inhibitors, etc. These must be broken down by cooking, and cooking for a long time, before they can be eaten safely. Beans and other legumes although rich in both carbohydrate and protein, also contain protease inhibitors. Starchy roots - yams and cassava - are common staples today, but if not well cooked are very toxic indeed. The cassava even contains cyanide which must be oxidised by heat to make it safe to eat. And apart from the anti-nutrients above, the starch in cereals - wheat, rice, barley, oats, and rye - are also inedible in quantity if not cooked first. Cooking causes the starch granules in the flour to swell and be disrupted by a process called gelatinization Without this the starch much less accessible to digestion by pancreatic amylase. (11) (See also soybeans below.) Unlike meat, which can be easily digested in its raw state, vegetables should really never be eaten raw and cereals should be fermented and then cooked for a very long time before being eaten to neutralise the phytic acid and other toxic anti-nutrients. That fact that we don't do these things is the reason for so much atopic disease - asthma, eczema, and so on - around today.

read more...

----------


## Yieu

So, a forum member comes and posts that he _has decided for himself_ that he is going to change his diet.

And the majority of the responses are people demonizing, bashing, and insulting vegetarians, and misrepresenting the health of vegetarianism.

That is off topic and quite frankly it is rather rude to the OP.

If you want to make up false information about vegetarianism being "unhealthy", maybe make a separate thread titled "Lets all bash vegetarians!!1!", and post that in there.

There is no reason to evoke such hatred for our way of life, just because we chose to eat slightly differently.  This is ridiculous.

This is the topic:




> I'm planning on switching to a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet. Still eating eggs and consuming milk products.
> 
> Any tips on meals to prepare, foods to switch to(and to snack on), etc. Would be awesome.


Bashing vegetarians and insulting them by calling their diet less healthy when it is not is not the topic.

This is like someone saying "I want to move to New Hampshire to support the Free State Project", and all the replies saying "Don't do that, it could be dangerous!".

I do not think the OP came here asking for insults.  Seriously!

The OP and other vegetarians have made their choice.  We won't push our views onto you, don't push yours onto us.

Maybe the thread should just be locked or something.

----------


## sevin

> So, a forum member comes and posts that he _has decided for himself_ that he is going to change his diet.
> 
> And the majority of the responses are people demonizing, bashing, and insulting vegetarians, and misrepresenting the health of vegetarianism.
> 
> That is off topic and quite frankly it is rather rude to the OP.


So you think only think people who agree with the OP should respond? 

What's wrong with having a discussion? This thread is really interesting. If everyone responded to the OP by saying "Good for you" the thread would be dead by now.

Besides, just because someone disagrees with vegetarianism doesn't mean they're "demonizing" it. They're just letting the OP know what they think. Nothing wrong with that.




> If you want to make up false information about vegetarianism being "unhealthy", maybe make a separate thread titled "Lets all bash vegetarians!!1!", and post that in there.
> 
> There is no reason to evoke such hatred for our way of life, just because we chose to eat slightly differently.  This is ridiculous.


Some of us really believe vegetarianism is unhealthy. We're not just making $#@! up for the sake of hatred. Good grief.

----------


## Acala

> So, a forum member comes and posts that he _has decided for himself_ that he is going to change his diet.
> 
> And the majority of the responses are people demonizing, bashing, and insulting vegetarians, and misrepresenting the health of vegetarianism.
> 
> That is off topic and quite frankly it is rather rude to the OP.
> 
> If you want to make up false information about vegetarianism being "unhealthy", maybe make a separate thread titled "Lets all bash vegetarians!!1!", and post that in there.
> 
> There is no reason to evoke such hatred for our way of life, just because we chose to eat slightly differently.  This is ridiculous.
> ...


If the OP didn't want comments, he shouldn't post on an internet forum.  Duh.

And disagreeing with someone is not the same as insulting them.

And third, YOU posted false information about the supposed necessity of carbohydrates in the diet.  We are, I suppose, bashing you when we point out that is false?

Perhaps your diet is causing you to have thin skin.

----------


## Acala

> You can get "results" with many different diets, but it doesn't mean you're healthy.
> 
> Obviously, you don't understand that I'm not just saying you're wrong to base your diet on that.  I'm saying evolution itself is not a basis for anything.  It's false.  However, I'm not here to argue about evolution.  I'm saying you and me come to our conclusions based on two completely different mindsets about the world.  Yours is based on evolutionary history, so you derive everything off of what you think you know about evolution.  I come to it based on how the body was designed.  
> 
> The problem I am seeing here is that you keep asserting that your diet is right because of the way you interpret evolutionary history, but you just assume that the evolutionary premise is true.  If it's not true, then your whole idea about health and diet don't apply anymore.  That's what I'm saying.  Your view of how you came to be affects your health decisions, and that's fine by me.  Just don't try to tell me that your diet principles apply to everyone because you base it on something that you take for granted as true.  Many people here don't take that as true, so if you are going to say that everyone's diet is based on evolutionary history, then you're going to have to prove that evolution itself is true.  I'm not talking about natural selection and mutations.  I'm talking about your purported history of mankind in the fossil record.  If you're going to base your diet on that, then you have to assume that evolution itself, which the fossil record is based on, is true.


Ahhhhh . . . I get it.

You are correct.  If you assume that the human being was created as is out of thin air 5000 years ago, with agriculture and civilization already in place, then the basis of my theory is useless to you.  

But, and I am no expert here, I think there is PLENTY of evidence in the Bible for humans eating meat.  And even for the smell of burning meat being pleasant to God.  Animal sacrifice and all.  But that isn't my field.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Ahhhhh . . . I get it.
> 
> You are correct.  If you assume that the human being was created as is out of thin air 5000 years ago, with agriculture and civilization already in place, then the basis of my theory is useless to you.  
> 
> But, and I am no expert here, I think there is PLENTY of evidence in the Bible for humans eating meat.  And even for the smell of burning meat being pleasant to God.  Animal sacrifice and all.  But that isn't my field.


That's in the Old Testament.  And you are right, eating meat is not condemned, but it also doesn't mean it is completely healthy.

Anyway, I'm glad you understand now.  I'm not going to go down the rabbit hole of getting into an evolution debate, but just trying to point out the vital assumptions.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> *You don't want to do that without researching the facts and fats first.
> *(Keep in mind this is not about farm fed meat, but organic grass fed animals.)
> 
> *Fats and brain size*
> 
> The evidence was already overwhelming that we could not be a vegetarian species. However, in 1972 the publication of two independent investigations really nailed the lid on the vegetarian hypothesis's coffin. The first concerned fats (9) .
> 
> About half our brain and nervous system is composed of complicated, long-chain, fatty acid molecules. The walls of our blood vessels also need them. Without them we cannot develop normally. These fatty acids do not occur in plants. Fatty acids in a simpler form do but they must be converted into the long-chain molecules by animals - which is a slow, time-consuming process. This is where the herbivores come in. Over the year, they convert the simple fatty acids found in grasses and seeds into intermediate, more complicated forms that we can convert into the ones that we need.
> 
> ...


I don't know where you get all this pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo from.  Saying that all raw vegetables are toxic is at best very misleading.  I suggest you take a look at this guy if you want evidence that a raw vegan diet can fuel even the hardest working human.

http://www.scottjurek.com/#/bio/

----------


## Acala

> That's in the Old Testament.  And you are right, eating meat is not condemned, but it also doesn't mean it is completely healthy.
> 
> Anyway, I'm glad you understand now.  I'm not going to go down the rabbit hole of getting into an evolution debate, but just trying to point out the vital assumptions.


Isn't the Old Testament part of the accepted Christian canon?  It certainly contains the part of the scriptures that is used as the Christian counterpoint to evolution.  Can't really rely on Genesis if you don't also take Leviticus, can you?  Or maybe you can.  But who decides which parts of the Bible still count and which don't?  Sort of like the way our government treats the Constitution.

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## Yieu

It's not worth the effort to repeat myself over and over, but it would be really nice if people understood that it is not less healthy to be vegetarian, that both diets can be just as healthy as each other, and that whether you eat meat or not is based on taste preference and religion.  That is all I ask.

Non-vegetarians often complain they don't like when vegetarians push their views onto them.  Therefore, I do not push my views, and many others here do not either.  But I don't like it when non-vegetarians push their views onto me either, by claiming my diet is "less healthy" when it is not less healthy.  It's the same thing.  Non-vegetarians don't like it when vegetarians push their views, vegetarians don't like it when meat eaters push their views.  So I won't claim my diet is more healthy -- in response I'd appreciate the same kindness.

But I can see that those points will not be heard, so perhaps it would be most wise of myself to go back to avoiding these threads because they never get anywhere, because it always ends up with meat eaters ganging up on and bashing vegetarians.  I might not follow my advice, but I should.

I guess Vessol won't get his tips and recipes he created this thread as a simple request for, because we can't have a thread without it being derailed.

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## PaulConventionWV

> Isn't the Old Testament part of the accepted Christian canon?  It certainly contains the part of the scriptures that is used as the Christian counterpoint to evolution.  Can't really rely on Genesis if you don't also take Leviticus, can you?  Or maybe you can.  But who decides which parts of the Bible still count and which don't?  Sort of like the way our government treats the Constitution.


I guess you could say it was a Constitutional Amendment, then.  Animal sacrifice was simply the Old Law that was part of how society operated, along with things like stoning which were used as capital punishment, much like we have today, except different (it was no small matter when that happened).  When Jesus died for our sins, the old law was replaced by the New Testament.  There is still much that is good about the Old Testament, but the sort of payment for sins that occurred in the Old Testament as well as certain forms of capital punishment when Jesus died for our sins.  I'm not an expert on this, but that's about what I can tell you.

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## speciallyblend

spinach cooked in some hamhock mmmmm good guess that just destroyed the word vegetarian oo well sorry good luck though

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## Yieu

//

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## Acala

> I guess you could say it was a Constitutional Amendment, then.  Animal sacrifice was simply the Old Law that was part of how society operated, along with things like stoning which were used as capital punishment, much like we have today, except different (it was no small matter when that happened).  When Jesus died for our sins, the old law was replaced by the New Testament.  There is still much that is good about the Old Testament, but the sort of payment for sins that occurred in the Old Testament as well as certain forms of capital punishment when Jesus died for our sins.  I'm not an expert on this, but that's about what I can tell you.


As I recall the Bible, animal sacrifice wasn't the way "society" operated, it was DEMANDED by God.  So God used to like meat but then became a vegetarian after his son was born?

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## Miro

> As I recall the Bible, animal sacrifice wasn't the way "society" operated, it was DEMANDED by God.  So God used to like meat but then became a vegetarian after his son was born?


Possibly even before that, actually:



> "...sayeth the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts, and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs or of hegoats.  Bring no more vain oblations... Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth; . .. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide Mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear; your hands are full of blood" 
> -Isaiah 1:11-15


Of course, in that same set of verses, incense is also said to be offensive. Here is a link to the full chapter in case you want to read it in context.

Now... onto the subject at hand:



> Any tips on meals to prepare, foods to switch to(and to snack on), etc. Would be awesome.


These are some easy things that Miro has often made:

*Spaghetti* with lots of pepper jack and/or parmesan cheese shredded over the top. (mmm cheese  ) 
The sauce is pretty easy.  Just take a can of tomato paste, add about half a palm full of salt (Miro doesn't use measuring spoons much ), black pepper, basil, oregano, crushed red pepper, and a very small amount of crushed rosemary.  You don't want to use too much of that or it tastes off.  Then add a can and a half full of water... less if you want a thicker sauce and more if you want thinner.  Can also put in a bay leaf while it simmers.

*Ramen with vegetable bouillon*
You can buy just the noodles without the spice packet at Asian stores.  Miro often adds 10-20 shakes of soy sauce to it, a bit of ground ginger, and some tabasco.

*Bean and cheese burritos*
Just get a can of refried beans, smear them on a tortilla, shred some cheese on it, add salsa, and pop it in the microwave.  Miro usually has it in the microwave for 30 seconds, then folds it and has it going for another minute.  Be sure to read the labels when you get the refried beans, though.  Some of them have lard.  The Taco Bell ones are pretty good because they've got whole beans in there.  The cheaper brands are just bean pastes.

*Creamy noodle stuff?*
Boil some noodles (shell, bow ties, elbow... whatever you have on hand), drain, add a can of cream of potato soup and some canned veggies (green beans, peas, peas and carrots, mixed veggies... again, whatever you have), season with black pepper.  Seasoned salt also goes well sprinkled on top (but don't mix it in.  It's not the same when you mix it and the soup has plenty of salt all in itself)  You can also use cream of mushroom or cream of onion I guess... but Miro prefers the taste of cream of potato.   You can add some milk to that to make it less thick and more soupy.  If you take out the noodles and instead add some TVP or meat-substitute crumbles, then spread the whole mess on toast, then you'll have vegetarian SOS.

*Chili cheese fries*
Fries, can of vegetarian chili (Hormel makes one), cheese.  Pretty simple and very addictive.  Of course, if you made your own fries and your own chili, it would take a bit more effort.  Replace the fries with corn chips and you have nachos!

*Pizza*
The way Miro makes it is a bit more complicated because she makes her own crust and sauce, but it can be really fast and simple if you buy a premade crust and premade sauce.  Then all you have to do is shred the cheese on top.  Pepper jack makes a really good pizza cheese if you don't have mozzarella.  Bags of frozen veggies can be kept around for use in various things including pizza toppings if you aren't one for buying and cutting up fresh veggies regularly.  Miro has found steam in the bag spinach is much better for this purpose than frozen spinach bricks.

*Enchiladas*
This is slightly time consuming and incredibly messy, but not all that difficult if you just get a can of enchilada sauce and canned black beans.  Again, be sure to check the labels.  Enchilada sauce is also kind of a hit or miss thing as far as flavor goes.  Take corn tortillas, soak them in the sauce for a bit... preferably warm, then take them out one at a time to assemble in a casserole dish, filling with beans and cheese before rolling them up.  Top with leftover sauce, sliced black olives, and leftover cheese.  Corn tortillas are very brittle and it will be common for them to split.  Soaking them in the sauce makes them a bit more limber, but they'll probably still break.  Miro is thinking of just making it layered like lasagna instead from now on.

*Spanish Rice*
This can be served with enchiladas or beans, or even eaten as a meal within itself.  Mix tomato paste and a can of water in a bowl with the same amount of salt as the spaghetti, add chili powder, paprika, black pepper, and ground cumin (careful with the cumin though.  You don't want too much, but also not too little.  Miro doesn't measure so she can't say what the right amount is  ).  Brown the rice before adding water, then add the sauce, stir, cover, and cook on low heat for about 20-30 minutes.  You can also add tomatoes to it if you want larger chunks of stuff to chew on.  Miro likes to top it with lots of cheese 

*Hummus and Cheese sammiches*
Spread hummus on bread, top with thick slices of cheese (aged cheddar tends to go very well with it), put on some mustard and pickle and you've got a sammich.  Lettuce and tomato also make good additions if you have it.

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## Yieu

> Possibly even before that, actually:
> 
> Of course, in that same set of verses, incense is also said to be offensive. Here is a link to the full chapter in case you want to read it in context.
> 
> Now... onto the subject at hand:
> 
> These are some easy things that Miro has often made:
> 
> *Spaghetti* with lots of pepper jack and/or parmesan cheese shredded over the top. (mmm cheese  ) 
> ...


+Rep

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## Vessol

A little status update I thought I'd post.

I should have said that I was transitioning to a vegetarian diet. It's very hard I'm finding to go straight vegetarian from a omnivorous diet. That difficulty is due to a number of reasons. My mother and sister are not that supportive of it since I've moved back in with them; I pay a large portion of my income(500$ a month) for rent, utilities, and food. Most of my food budget is going towards that, and they are unwilling to put any of the food budget towards vegetarian options. There is also the fact that we are also in the process of moving and I'm putting in as many extra hours as I can get before that. And then lastly, there is the habit of eating meat. With little in person support system, it's very hard for me to break the habit of having meat with every meal.

A funny aside. I've found it easier to quit smoking cold turkey than to quit eating meat. More due to the habitual nature, rather than cravings(I never have craved meat, it's just there for meals really).

Thanks all for the continued feedback!

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## dannno

> A little status update I thought I'd post.
> 
> I should have said that I was transitioning to a vegetarian diet. It's very hard I'm finding to go straight vegetarian from a omnivorous diet. That difficulty is due to a number of reasons. My mother and sister are not that supportive of it since I've moved back in with them; I pay a large portion of my income(500$ a month) for rent, utilities, and food. Most of my food budget is going towards that, and they are unwilling to put any of the food budget towards vegetarian options. There is also the fact that we are also in the process of moving and I'm putting in as many extra hours as I can get before that. And then lastly, there is the habit of eating meat. With little in person support system, it's very hard for me to break the habit of having meat with every meal.
> 
> A funny aside. I've found it easier to quit smoking cold turkey than to quit eating meat. More due to the habitual nature, rather than cravings(I never have craved meat, it's just there for meals really).


I did a transition as well, I was eating meat about once a week for the first few months when I started. You might need to do it more often until you're more settled and find your vegetarian comfort foods.

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## Yieu

> A little status update I thought I'd post.
> 
> I should have said that I was transitioning to a vegetarian diet. It's very hard I'm finding to go straight vegetarian from a omnivorous diet. That difficulty is due to a number of reasons. My mother and sister are not that supportive of it since I've moved back in with them; I pay a large portion of my income(500$ a month) for rent, utilities, and food. Most of my food budget is going towards that, and they are unwilling to put any of the food budget towards vegetarian options. There is also the fact that we are also in the process of moving and I'm putting in as many extra hours as I can get before that. And then lastly, there is the habit of eating meat. With little in person support system, it's very hard for me to break the habit of having meat with every meal.
> 
> A funny aside. I've found it easier to quit smoking cold turkey than to quit eating meat. More due to the habitual nature, rather than cravings(I never have craved meat, it's just there for meals really).


That's understandable, because it is a big shift in diet.  I also transitioned before quitting meat entirely.  Once you make the full switchover to a vegetarian diet, the first month or two may seem a little rough and you might seem more hungry often, but that is only a part of the transition and it goes away.  After that is over, your body adjusts to your new diet and you're fine.  At that 1-2 month after the switchover point I started feeling less lethargic, less oily internally, and more healthy and energetic (this is just my personal experience, and my wife's).

You're right, there is some habit to it, much like smoking cigarettes.  Your body is used to one thing and you're training it to be used to something else.  You don't really need to buy special vegetarian food items like boca burgers or anything, the suggestions Miro gave above can be made from regular ingredients, try them out sometime.

It is easier to reduce your intake, much like the "steps" program of the nicoderm patch, over a couple of months before you make the full switch.  Go with what feels most comfortable, but if you want to commit to a change, don't forget that you're trying to change your habits and then fall back into old habits just out of forgetting.  It's not really a difficult change, just take it easy and keep at the the pace that feels right.  I'd recommend not cutting out dairy or cheese, especially not the first month or two after the full switchover, because they help your body adjust (in my experience, at least).

I've heard a few (not many) people say they "tried a vegetarian diet and it didn't work for them", or they had "x" problem, or they felt hungry, etc.  Well, those are most likely all just problems relating to the transition.  There are problems like that which happen with the transition, but once the transition is over you feel fine.  So if those few people had just transitioned more gently, and kept with their new diet for longer, they would have grown into it and found no problem with it.  Another problem those few people might have had is you shouldn't just eat junk food, cereal, and salads.  Have real meals, of the type that Miro suggested (of course, there are more possibilities than what Miro listed, but those suggestions can give you an idea of where to go from there, and you could pick up a recipe book with easy realistic recipes, too).

If you want someone to talk to about it or more advice, send me a PM and I'll give you my contact info.

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## Miro

Shortly after Miro made the transition, she would get hungry every 3 hours or so.  Not incredibly so, but enough to get a snack of some sort like a toaster pastry, some crackers, or a slice of toast.  After a while, that went away though.  She also wouldn't eat as much per meal because eating every 3 hours made her fill up easier, but that's actually good for metabolism.

One of the problems I've seen people who are transitioning run into is not knowing what to eat, thinking they have to completely change everything and find a whole new set of meals, abandoning everything that's familiar and go out of their way to change.  But there are actually "normal" meals that are either already vegetarian or they can be turned vegetarian and still remain complete simply by leaving out the meat, such as mac & cheese, grilled cheese sammiches, homemade chili, lasagna, peanut butter & jelly sammiches, and some of the meals I mentioned above.  Miro used to also eat spaghetti os for lunch sometimes because it was really easy.  She gets this instead now, but not too often because it's more expensive due to being organic.  Broccoli and cheese "lean pockets" and cheese pizza rolls were also favorites of Miro's even before the switch and she kept them for a while after.  No one said vegetarian food had to be non-greasy

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