# Lifestyles & Discussion > Freedom Living >  Preparing for the PAW (Post Apocalyptic World) ModNote:  COPY of original

## GunnyFreedom

Preparing for the PAW (Post Apocalyptic World)

Preparing for the PAW is neither cheap nor easy.  As in all things, you can be frugal or you can be lavish.  There is no one set of equipment and foodstuffs, but rather a set of basic principles to abide by in the preparation which can be addressed frugally or expensively.  These principles can be laid out in segments as follows:

Bugging In/Bugging Out
Medical
Food
Weapons
Ammunition
Communications and
Misc Equipment

If the descriptions of the categories below begin to seem overwhelming, remember what I said in the first paragraph up top -- you can either do this frugally or expensively.  You can set up a very very basic PAW kit which includes ALL of these categories for under $1,000; or you can go all out and drop $250,000 or more into it and still have many more things left that you can do to further prepare.  The important part is recognizing the categories and addressing the various concerns in each one.

*OVERVIEW OF CATEGORIES*

*Bugging In/Bugging Out*

First and foremost, bugging in and bugging out.  Depending on what kind of shyt hits what kind of fan, will determine whether you stay put, or whether you head for the hills.  Sitting it out in "fortress home" is called bugging in, and heading for the hills is called bugging out.  Bugging out uses supplies and equipment you have on hand at home, while the primary component of bugging out is called a "bug out bag" or BOB.  Bugging out can be as simple as a regular military style ALICE pack with some food clothing and ammo, and a good set of hiking boots, or it can be as fancy as a Bug Out Vehicle (BOV) rigged out like Mad Max with supplemental fuel tanks and so on.

*Medical*

Medical preparedness is important.  You will probably not have access to the hospital in the PAW, so a good first aid kit is imperative.  Even better, a fully stocked combat corpman's kit along with some paramedic training is a very good idea.

*Food*

Food storage is also important.  When the world goes to hell in a handbasket, you aren't likely to find goodies at your local Wal Mart.  Food stores tend to fall into 3 categories -- MRE's, Canned and/or freeze dried long term food stores, and bulk commodity foodstuffs.  MRE's can be had military surplus, and will store longer than 10 years if kept under 60 degrees.  MRE's can be had less expensively as knock-offs and are nearly as good, but MRE's are damn expensive.  One year's supply for one person can run into the $5000 range.  Canned long term food stores can be had with shelf lifes from 5 years to 100 years, and tend to be less expensive, one year for one person running around $1000 to $2000.  Commodity foodstuffs include rice, wheat flour, dried beans etc, and are the cheapest of the lot, one year for one person coming in at $200 to $500.  Your best bet is a combination of the three.  Some MRE's for the BOB/BOV and anytime you may be out of the house for an extended period of weeks or months; some canned meats and vegetables, and some commodities.

*Weapons*

Weapons will be very important.  Do not underestimate the utility of the .22 rifle!  you can get 1000 rounds of .22 LR for $20 and they don't make a whole lot of noise (which draws a lot of attention!)  The .22 is perfect for hunting small game, and it is quite frankly stupid to shoot a rabbit or a squirrel with a high powered rifle.  You should have a .22 and around 5000 rounds of .22 LR and if you are not squeamish about cleaning rabbits or snake, then you will never starve.  A decent pistol 9mm or better to help you fight your way back to your main battle rifle, and then a rifle in 5.56, .308 or .30-06 

*Ammunition*

Ammunition -- you should have an ammo store on hand to feed your weapons, and a bench for reloading.  Brass, while it is good to have extra, is not as crucial as you can collect your own brass to reload.  You must have powder, primers, and projectiles, however.  Because .22 LR cannot really be reloaded, you will want a full supply on hand.  Say 5000 to 10,000 rounds.  Any marksmanship training you need to do in the PAW can be done with the .22, and rounds for that rifle are cheap cheap cheap.  You'll want about 500 to 700 pistol rounds, plus dies for reloading, and 2,000 to 3,000 rounds for your main battle rifle, plus dies for reloading.

*Communications and*

Communications covers items like short wave radios, and maybe even amateur radio setups.  If you plan on working together in groups in the PAW, then some handsets might be a good idea.  Handsets may be a good idea just for family members.  If the power goes out, don't forget that you may want the ability to recharge your handsets by solar energy, or dynamo energy.  An exercise bicycle can be retrofit pretty easily to generate electricity by foot-power.  The crucial aspect will be storage batteries and transformers/converters.

*Misc Equipment*

Miscellaneous equipment is really the catch all.  A gas mask is a good idea, a tactical vest, lanterns, flashlights, maybe a generator, a kerosine heater, water purification equipment, a propane cook stove, and lots of other miscellany.  This includes field kit, canteens, ammo pouches, butt packs, load bearing gear; combat kit like flack vests or bulletproof vests, trauma plates, and survival/camping gear.  



Details in subsequent posts

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## josephadel_3

Water purification is very important.  Once the utilities go out, water will be in dire shortage.  Go to your local outdoors or camping gear store and pick up a water filter and some water purification tablets.  Water is more important than food.  Also buy quite a few of those giant poland spring water dispensers.

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## GunnyFreedom

> *Bugging In/Bugging Out*
> 
> First and foremost, bugging in and bugging out.  Depending on what kind of shyt hits what kind of fan, will determine whether you stay put, or whether you head for the hills.  Sitting it out in "fortress home" is called bugging in, and heading for the hills is called bugging out.  Bugging out uses supplies and equipment you have on hand at home, while the primary component of bugging out is called a "bug out bag" or BOB.  Bugging out can be as simple as a regular military style ALICE pack with some food clothing and ammo, and a good set of hiking boots, or it can be as fancy as a Bug Out Vehicle (BOV) rigged out like Mad Max with supplemental fuel tanks and so on.


The immediate response to an apocalyptic event of any sort, is _bugging_.  There are a lot of factors which determine if you need to _bug in_ or to _bug out_.

If you are deep in the heart of a city, then you are more likely to need to bug out, and if you are waaay out in the sticks, then you are more likely to want to bug in.  If you are very talkative about your preparations, and you let everyone and their brothers know that you are ready for the PAW, then chances are you will eventually have to bug out, or fend off hundreds of starving people who just know you have food in there.

*BUGGING OUT*

The basic and most important element of bugging, is called the _Bug Out Bag_ or BOB.  This could be any sort of back pack for easy traveling on foot, and it's purpose is so that you can just pick it up and *GO* if something catastrophic happens, and know without doubt that you will be able to survive for a week without any kind of resupply whatsoever.

*Bug Out Bag (BOB)*

Your BOB should contain something like:

Space Blanket or Sleeping Bag
Several large plastic garbage bags
3 Pair of boot socks
3 Pair of underwear and t-shirts
Vinyl large poncho
Leather shooting/work gloves
Bandana
Pair of well-worn hiking boots
20 ft para cord
Large Cold Steel Bush knife
Swiss Army knife
Cold Steel entrenching tool
Sharpening stone
Compass
Flashlight (possibly crank powered)
First Aid kit
Gas mask
Personal toiletries, including (but not limited to):
Soap
Washcloth
DEET
Sunscreen
Three MRE's
Six "power bars"
Water Bottle, 1.5 liter
Water purification tablets
Repair kit
Duct tape
20-lifeboat matches
Plastic matchsafe with strike anywhere matches
Flint and steel
Tinder
100 rounds of rifle ammo
50 rounds of pistol 
Minimal weapons cleaning kit

*Bug Out Vehicle (BOV)*

If you have more money to spend, and think that walking is for the birds, you can also invest in a _Bug Out Vehicle_ or BOV.  A BOV is a lot more dynamic than a BOB, however, and depending on the scenario you face and the location you are in, could be anything from the "I don't want to be seen" ubiquitous Ford Taurus or older Honda Accord, to a serious off-road package truck or SUV.

In either case, you want your BOV stocked with supplies similar to the BOB, but more of them.  Plus a basic tool kit, a firearm, more food and ammo, camping supplies like a tent and camping stove, a full camping kit including foam/air mattresses, tarps, fold out chairs and tables.

You can also hold more clothing in a BOV, and should have supplies to wash clothes in a river should the need arise.  Enough line to string up a clothes line is a good idea.

When you set up a BOV, it is a good idea to include an additional fuel cell/supplemental fuel tanks, and all the supplies your vehicle might need, oil, antifreeze, coolant, transmission fluid, brake fluid, window washer fluid, 4 spare tires if possible.

Probably the most important thing is the most expensive:  Supplemental fuel tanks.  You can certainly get by with 4 5 gallon fuel cans, but your ultimate goal here is to at least double your vehicles fuel capacity, and thus your range without stopping for gas.

*Bug Out Location (BOL)*

When bugging out, you really don't want to just head out to the woods and hang around waiting for your supplies to run out.  If you do that, you are really just delaying the inevitable.  Plan ahead now to have somewhere to bug out TO.  the best idea (although not cheap!) is some backwater cabin out in the mountains without power and maybe without roads, and certainly without a postal address.

Minor BOL plans will take you to a remote location where you may have food, weapons, and ammo buried in a secret location, and you can plan on finding shelter from there.  Major BOL plans could have you setting up a land/home package through shell companies in Montana or Alaska.

A BOL should at minimum be some kind of basic rally point for your family and those who will be weathering the PAW with you, and should have the means to stock/hide additional supplies.  If all you can come up with for a BOL is a spot in the wilderness which you can locate readily, then think of ways to bury things without ruining them.  A 3" ID PVC pipe with caps securely clued to one end, and threaded with pipe tape on the other end can be completely sealed from humidity, water, dirt, etc and can contain extra food, extra ammunition, or maybe even a rifle.

*BUGGING IN*

Bugging in can be as simple as making sure you home is supplied with long term food storage, medical, and emergency supplies, or as complicated as setting up bunkers, fields of fire, approach funnels with concertina wire, and escape tunnels and underground shelters.

If you are preparing for a conventional emergency, such as a hurricane, tornado, earthquake; then 3 months food supply should be more than adequate.  If you are preparing for an all out PAW, then up to a years worth of food might not be a bad idea.  

You should know how to purify water, and keep rain buckets under your gutters.  If you can set up a distiller for water and alcohol, that would also be a good thing.  Distilled water is as pure as the driven snow (purer, actually) no mater what it's source is, and moonshine has a metric ton of medical and sanitary uses.  You can even use moonshine to clean a countertop after cutting up raw chicken on it, for instance, or disinfect wounds, or as fuel for a portable stove etc etc.  Just don't sell any of it until AFTER the PAW when it will become a community commodity and will no longer be illegal to sell.

Consider a small generator, and gas to keep it running.  When the power goes, your refrigerated and frozen food will go quickly thereafter.  A generator can help to keep your refrigerator and/or freezer running long enough to hurry up and eat up your cold storage food before dipping into your long term food stores.  You should not plan on keeping cold storage for a long period of time in the event of an extended blackout (months or longer).

If you absolutely must have the creature comfort of a cold beverage, then you will want a small electric powered ice maker so that you don't have to generate as much power as your freezer will take, and have some coolers on hand to store ice.  Also, a large horizontal deep freezer can be filled with ice from the ice maker and made to store larger game like deer once it is cleaned and butchered.

If you are thinking about having the ability to bug in and fight off the zombie hoards, then it is possible (but quite expensive) to armor the walls of your home.  A better solution is found in sandbags.  Empty canvass sandbags are cheap, and you can buy them in lots of hundreds or thousands.  they do not need to be kept filled in storage, and in the event of the SHTF, you can fill them with a shovel and dirt from your back yard.  Sandbags can then be stacked against the walls 2 layers deep beneath your windows in order to set up fields of fire and yet remain behind cover.

Consider at least one armored 'safe room' for your family to hide in case you have to fight off the zombie hoard.  A small interior closet lined with 1/2 inch armor plates would do just fine.  If you have real money, make that 1 inch armor, or ceramic plates, and also set up a faraday cage closet to keep any electronics you want to preserve from an EMP.

Also consider making a hidden trap door from your 'safe closet' to the crawl space underneath your house in case you or your family have to get out of the house secretly.

Outside the house, identify your avenues of approach early, before the SHTF, and set up cover in strategic points.  Do not use concrete blocks to set up cover, as concrete is quickly degraded by high power rifles.  Stone, solid cement, or solid clay brick works adequately.  make sure your cover works in only one direction -- outwards -- you do not want zombies using YOUR cover points to attack your house.  Identify and remove any natural cover that may be used to approach your house.

Consider fencing immediately surrounding your house, and out to the property line.  A chain link fence and a dog can be a very effective early warning system.

If you live in a rural area and will be bugging in when the SHTF, it may be a good idea to set up a feed trough in the woods right now, and keep it stocked with feed corn to attract deer and other medium to large game, so tat when the time comes, you have a ready source of game on hand, and do not have to go out looking for it.

Water supplies may be hairy when bugging in.  Municipal water may not be available, and if it is, may not be safe.  Along with collecting rainwater and gutter water, and having the ability to purify or distill it; you may want to identify nearby streams or other sources of water.  If you are allowed to dig a well that can be hand pumped, this is the optimal solution.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Water purification is very important.  Once the utilities go out, water will be in dire shortage.  Go to your local outdoors or camping gear store and pick up a water filter and some water purification tablets.  Water is more important than food.  Also buy quite a few of those giant poland spring water dispensers.


Agreed.  the best long-term solution is a deep well with a hand pump, and a fire powered distiller.  Keeping a few 50 gallon drums of water in storage is not a bad idea either.  Also, what Joseph said.

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## rancher89

> Agreed.  the best long-term solution is a deep well with a hand pump, and a fire powered distiller.  Keeping a few 50 gallon drums of water in storage is not a bad idea either.  Also, what Joseph said.


Berkey water filter

http://www.berkeyfilters.com/

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## rancher89

great links

http://www.thepowerhour.com/news/ite...ppearfirst.htm

http://www.aircav.com/survival/appb/asappbtoc.html

http://www.greatdreams.com/survival.htm

http://www.greatdreams.com/basic.htm

http://www.motherearthnews.com/

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## seapilot

This thread is cool. Reminds me of the Gummers from the 1990 movie Tremors.

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## GunnyFreedom

> *Medical*
> 
> Medical preparedness is important.  You will probably not have access to the hospital in the PAW, so a good first aid kit is imperative.  Even better, a fully stocked combat corpman's kit along with some paramedic training is a very good idea.


While it's true that many things will change following some kind of major cataclysm, some things will not.  Women will continue to give birth, and people will continue to get sick and injured.  In fact, some of the injuries may be more trauma related and less 'skin-your-knee-at-the-playground' related.  

Another thing that will change, is our access to commercial medicine.  The local emergency room *may* continue operations in one form or another, but the likelihood is that for most medical problems that we are currently unaccustomed to dealing with, we will be on our own.

If your child were to fall into a culvert and sustain a 2 inch laceration and a broken arm, would you know how to stitch up the wound and set the broken bone?  Even if you knew how, do you have the supplies to do so?

If there were absolutely no other choice, would you be able to remove a bullet, or an appendix?  Even knowing that if you don't try they will die for certain?

*Medical Supplies*

Medical supplies, and medical training will become extremely valuable in the PAW.  A very well stocked field corpsman kit can be found here:

http://servicesrcsub1.timberlakepubl...er%2010-07.pdf

(Warning - link is an Adobe Acrobat (PDF) file)

The above PDF file is a source for ordering the kit (I honestly do not know if they will sell to civilians or not) but it does not mention a price.  What it DOES do, is list the packs contents, which, if nothing else can suffice as a checklist for assembling your own field medical kit:

NOMENCLATURE --- Quantity per Pack
Airway, Nasopharengeal, sz 5.5 mm, 22 Fr Sterile Disp --- 1
Airway, Nasopharengeal, sz 5.5 mm, 26 Fr Sterile Disp --- 1
Crycrothrotomy set --- 1
Intraoseous Infussion System (F.A.S.T 1) --- 1
IV Injection Set, Macrodrip 10 drops/ml, 12's --- 5
Marker, Tube Type Felt, Fine Tip, Black, Permanent, Sharpie --- 1
Bandage, Elastic, 16 x 12 Abdominal wound pad, Sterile (Big Cinch) --- 2
Bandage, Gauze Fluff 4.5 inch x 4 yrds --- 6
Bandage, Muslin Camouflage 37 x 37 x 52 inch --- 6
Self-Grip, 6" x 4 yrds, Beige --- 4
Dressing, Compression, 6" x 3" x 1.5", H Bandage --- 12
Sodium Chloride, Injection, USP, 500ml, 24's --- 4
Splint, Universal, Aluminum, 4" x 36", SAMS --- 2
Scissors, Bandage, 7.25 inch, angled handle --- 2
Tape Adhesive, Surgical, Woven, 3" x 1- yrds --- 2
Combat Medic Reinforcement Tape, Mini Roll Kit --- 2
Tourniquet, Combat Application, One Handed (CAT) --- 4
Wound Pack, Hemostatic Agent, 5 x 7 " (Quick Clot) --- 4
Syringe, Toomey, 70 cc Sterile --- 1
Dressing , Burn, Water Gel, 4" x 16 " --- 2
Surgical Instrument Set, Minor Surgery --- 1
Lantern, Electric, Head Mount Halogen/Krypton --- 1
Otoscope & Opthalmoscope Set, Basic, Soft --- 1
Thermometer Kit, Clinical Human Electric, w/Probe Covers --- 1
Cannula, Needleless Access System IV w/Leur-lock inj site plastic --- 5
Connector, Saline Lock --- 5
Dressing Chest Wound Seal, Bolin, 10s --- 4
Catheter & Needle Unit, IV 14 ga x 3 1/4 inch catheter --- 2
Catheter & Needle Unit IV 18 ga x 1 1/4 cath --- 6
Gloves, Patient Exam Olive Drab, Sz Lrg, 50's --- 2
King-LT, Large, Size 5 --- 1
King-LT, Medium, Size 4 --- 1
Needle, Hypodermic, 18 Ga, 1.5 inches, 100's --- 2
Pad Pre, Isopropyl Alcohol Impregnated, 1 x 2.5 inch --- 14
Sponge, Surgical, 12-ply Gauze, 8" x 4", non-sterile --- 10
Syringe, Hypodermic, Gen Purpose, 10 ml, Leur tip --- 2
Pack, Thigh Rig for Day Use --- 1
Combat Trauma Bag, V-2 --- 1
Stethoscope, Littman Classis II 28 inches long --- 1
Pack, Corpsman Assault --- 1

The above supplies should cover nearly anything you are likely to encounter.  The only thing the kit above does not include which you may need are disinfectants, anesthetics, and pain medications.  180 proof grain alcohol (moonshine) can fill at least some of that role.  If you are able to legally acquire a stock of codeine tablets and morphine ampules that would be a good thing to include, but do not use them without a knowledge of dosing and possible reactions.

Also, include a bottle of iodine.  In the event of a nuclear detonation, immediately dose everyone in your party with about 2 teaspoons of iodine to protect the thyroid.

**********************************
EDIT TO ADD: IMPORTANT CORRECTION TO IODINE RADIATION TREATMENT:

The proper way to protect against radiation poisoning destroying your thyroid is a relatively expensive pill made of Potassium Iodate.

http://www.campingsurvival.com/potiodpilkio.html

It's just possible that with the right meter (probably something like 1/8 tsp daily) you can use iodine to provide the same protection, but it is likely to make you extremely sick (which pretty much destroys your survival chances by preventing you from doing other equally necessary things), whereas the potassium iodate pills sold at the above link will not make you sick at all.
**********************************

Other, more conventional medical kits cam be had here:
http://www.first-aid-industrial.com/index.php?cPath=81
http://www.firstaid-supply.com/Indus...l?wcw=overture



*Medical Training*

Organizations like the University of Phoenix offer EMT training where you can pick and choose your classes.  because you will not be going for certification, but just for knowledge, you will have a lot more freedom:

http://www.careerexplorer.net/jobcho...acctid=&ovkey=

Here is a decent overview of EMT and Paramedic training:

http://firstaid.about.com/od/emergen...oparamedic.htm

And some reference material;

http://www.overstock.com/Books-Movie...422886-000-000

http://bergware.net/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/bookshelf?/Z101321

Note that if you are building a medical library, there is no one book, but an entire LIBRARY of works covering the science and the art of medicine.  Your best first reference will be a textbook when taking an EMT and Paramedic classes.

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## Kalifornia

> While it's true that many things will change following some kind of major cataclysm, some things will not.  Women will continue to give birth, and people will continue to get sick and injured.  In fact, some of the injuries may be more trauma related and less 'skin-your-knee-at-the-playground' related.  
> 
> lots of stuff...
> 
> Note that if you are building a medical library, there is no one book, but an entire LIBRARY of works covering the science and the art of medicine.  Your best first reference will be a textbook when taking an EMT and Paramedic classes.


Despite having a professional doctorate, I feel like my education is wholly inadequate in this regard.  I know nothing about how things, except for data and legal systems, work.  I have considered doing ongoing classes at the local CC to fix this weakness, and emergency medicine is a good place to start.

How relevant is a local EMT or paramedic progam to perhaps facing the potential of life threatening illness and injury, where little to no modern medical equipment is immediately available?

This question is for anyone who has enough knowledge on the subject to speak to it intelligently.

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## seapilot

> Despite having a professional doctorate, I feel like my education is wholly inadequate in this regard.  I know nothing about how things, except for data and legal systems, work.  I have considered doing ongoing classes at the local CC to fix this weakness, and emergency medicine is a good place to start.
> 
> How relevant is a local EMT or paramedic progam to perhaps facing the potential of life threatening illness and injury, where little to no modern medical equipment is immediately available?
> 
> This question is for anyone who has enough knowledge on the subject to speak to it intelligently.


Thats a hard call. Most EMTs use modern equipment like defibrilators, oxygen, nitroglycerin, neck braces, IV lines, etc. They are there to stabilize a person and get them to an emergency room for surgery or more advanced analysis. Basic First Aid, CPR is for until the EMTs arrive.

 It definitly would help to take such a course, as well as read about home remedies. Good to know basics for the start, simple little things like giving someone an asprin during a heart attack could save thier life. Id recommend taking a day CPR/First Aid class to give you an idea before taking an EMT program.

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## Hawk45

Every survivalist group I have seen during the last 30 years are ALL looking for trained medical folks.  I know of one group that paid a young ladies entire way thru medical school just to make sure they had a Doctor.  That maybe the one profession that will get you in just about survival camp if you have to bug out from your home and become a refugee.  Yes I said refugee as that is really what folks are that have to bug out.

You may want to start getting together with like minded folks now and find out if you will get along NOW while it is peaceful.  Also work out now what your 'group' is going to do about other refugees.  Are you gonna interview them in hopes you find some skill your group is lacking or what you will do with any survivors that attack your little piece of heaven on earth.

NOW is the time to find out if you are going to hang them or encourage them to just move along to bother some other group.

Sometime survivalism is NOT pretty, but it is reality.

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## tekrunner

Hey gunny,
You got a link for those sandbags?
Not only would they make for great defense, they'd make a wonderful home for Tom, Dick and Harry should you get cornered in your Urban bug in spot.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Hey gunny,
> You got a link for those sandbags?
> Not only would they make for great defense, they'd make a wonderful home for Tom, Dick and Harry should you get cornered in your Urban bug in spot.


You can always try these guys:

http://www.nyp-corp.com/sandbags.htm...FQIbgQodihhexw

or here is even better:

http://www.safetycentral.com/floodprotsan.html


But the BEST source, seriously, is right here:

http://www.unitedbags.com/pc-160-6-p...-1000bale.aspx

Those are the same bags purchased under DOD contract.  Only problem is, of course, from United Bags you have to buy in lots of 1000.  1000 DOD spec bags from united bags will run $380.  Yes, $380 is a lot to pay for sandbags, but it's a lot less than the $1.10 per bag price you get for lots of 100.

If you want to get just stupid about the quantities  these guys will get you an even better price per bag in lots of 2400 (but you have to specifically request a quote):

http://daybag.com/industrial/military.html

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## Dequeant

Well i've been stocking up for a while now, and my priorities are based on needs:

Generally speaking......
You can live 2 weeks without food
You can live 3 days without water
You can live a few hours without weapons

Priority # 1 is weapons/ammo.  If you don't have these, anything you do have can be easily taken by someone who does have weapons and ammo.

Priority # 2 is water.  The majority of time in an post apocalyptic scenario will be used in search of clean drinking water.  Bringing a couple months supply of water and water purification system (with additional filters) is vital.

Priority # 3 is food.  Since you CAN live quite a while without food, a large kill or two per week could hold you over.  However, planning ahead by having an on-hand supply of a couple months is a good decision.  Canned or freeze dried food are good/cheap ideas.  Rice is also good.  Not to be overlooked is Ramen Noodles.......which is the cheapest option ( 10 cents for a day, not bad).  As we are seeing, the first thing to be "rationed" is rice.

Not in my little list up top, but worth mentioning to say the least, is shelter.  Depending on your environment, this COULD be the most important or the least important.  However, only establish a shelter where you have reliable access to the 3 priorities.......in the woods along a river or something to that effect.

Once you have a spot chosen for your shelter, you can fortify it depending on its perminance.  If you're going to be staying there for a long time you can make it from wood or something durable, with thick walls (mine will be thick enough to stop bullets).  The surrounding area should be alarmed........something as simple as fishing line and tins cans......or snares and bear traps if you REALLY don't want company.

As far as specific items, i won't tell you what caliber guns to get etc etc (though to be honest, Gunny hit the nail on the head with 22LR) but i do advise a good supply of rope.  You can get 1000ft of parachute cord for about 30 bucks, which is what i have.  Second to your firearm, rope is the most useful, since with it you can build shelter, set up defences/alarms, bring in food, and about 1000 other uses you won't know about until you need it.

Some other suggestions......

Flint lighter (6 bucks at cabellas).  Lights wet, muddy, and doesn't need "fuel".  Good for thousands of fires, unlike conventional lighters and matches.

9v "Pak light".  One 9v battery and this little light can provide constant light for months without recharging.

Anarchists cookbook.  Seriously, there are plenty of things you can learn from this that will help you in survival situations.  A bonus is if you want to actually engage in some resistance/fighting.  You don't need chemicals, you can literally make explosives out of anything from chicken$#@! and diesel to straining fertile soil for ammonium nitrate.

Large rechargeable batteries (car batteries will work).  If you are going to make your own electricity to recharge batteries/provide light/power communications you will need something to hold it.

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## Athan

MY GOD. This is the greatest thread in internet existence!!!

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## Meatwasp

A lot of you may think I am nuts but I have saved my eye from an infection , a bad earache.
Poison oak that got infected  with a darling little green can called Bag Balm. I would never be without it.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Preparing for the PAW (Post Apocalyptic World)
> 
> *Food*
> 
> Food storage is also important.  When the world goes to hell in a handbasket, you aren't likely to find goodies at your local Wal Mart.  Food stores tend to fall into 3 categories -- MRE's, Canned and/or freeze dried long term food stores, and bulk commodity foodstuffs.  MRE's can be had military surplus, and will store longer than 10 years if kept under 60 degrees.  MRE's can be had less expensively as knock-offs and are nearly as good, but MRE's are damn expensive.  One year's supply for one person can run into the $5000 range.  Canned long term food stores can be had with shelf lifes from 5 years to 100 years, and tend to be less expensive, one year for one person running around $1000 to $2000.  Commodity foodstuffs include rice, wheat flour, dried beans etc, and are the cheapest of the lot, one year for one person coming in at $200 to $500.  Your best bet is a combination of the three.  Some MRE's for the BOB/BOV and anytime you may be out of the house for an extended period of weeks or months; some canned meats and vegetables, and some commodities.


The vast majority of Americans have barely enough food on hand to last only a couple days past their next paycheck.  Many of those are, in fact, much worse off -- buying their meals a day at a time and having almost nothing on hand in case of emergencies.

In case of the complete collapse of civilization, the people who have only one day or two weeks of food on hand, will probably not be able to go to the corner store and buy more.  If they eat at all, it will be out of garbage cans, from the black market, or begging rations from FEMA, other agencies of the Federal Government, the Red Cross, or the UN.

Food is survival.  As someone else mentioned in this thread, there is a quick and ready list of how long you can survive without certain supplies or materials.  The way I have heard it before goes like this:

A human being can survive --

Three minutes without air
Three hours without shelter
Three days without water
Three weeks without food

*Three Minutes Without Air*

This sets up your priorities in a hurry.  While it's true that we are not on a space station in outer space, nevertheless the three minutes without air is important to remember.  If there is a fire spewing noxious gasses, your home fills with tear gas, or anything whatever happens to choke off your oxygen supply, you should always be able to grab your gas mask within 60 seconds.  As a former Marine, we had the requirement to be able to get, don, and clear our masks in 7 seconds.

There is really no excuse to not have a gas mask anymore.  Gas masks are NOT terribly expensive.  Just scan over gunbroker.com or ebay, go to your local military surplus store, or hit up a gun show.  You can get a top of the line military spec gas mask for under $20.  Learn how to don and clear, and never have it out of reach within 60 seconds.  If you wear glasses, make sure you get a gas mask that can take optical inserts so that you can still see when you are wearing it.

*Three Hours Without Shelter*

It may be that you live in Hawaii, and shelter is not as pressing as if you lived in Maine.  Nevertheless, if you have ever watched "Survivorman" or "Man vs Wild" you will note that regardless of the climate the one thing Les or Bear prioritizes in every show is shelter.

Focus on the areas you may be in, and regularly spin scenarios in your mind about how you will acquire shelter.  If you followed the advice above and kept a well stocked Bug Out Bag, then shelter will be readily available.  A fallen tree, propped on a branch, cut the limbs, throw the space blanket or poncho over the top and get in a sleeping bag inside.

If you have minimal supplies, then learn the area where you are, where you might find caves, how to assemble shelter from the local flora.  Do you live in the far north?  Learn how to build snow caves.

Watching the two shows mentioned above is in fact a good way to learn the basics of sheltering.  But if you never practice it, it will be a lot more difficult to accomplish when you need to.  Get a survival manual, watch the shows, gain ideas, and go into your expected bug out areas and practice practice practice.

*Three Days Without Water*

Once you know you can breathe, and you have set up shelter, your next priority is water.  In your Bug Out Bag you should have an entrenching tool (shovel) and plastic trash bags.  I recommend BLACK plastic trash bags in particular, because they capture solar energy that can be used to make a solar still.  With a solar still, you can purify any water source at all.  you dig a hole and place a cup in the middle of the hole.  Cover the hole with the plastic, pile dirt around the circumference, and place a small stone directly over the cup.  Now pour any liquid source you want into the hole under the plastic bag, or even (gasp!) urinate on the dirt surrounding the hole (outside of he plastic).  The sin't energy will evaporate the water which will collect on the bag, the droplets will trickle "downhill" to where the stone rests, and then drip off into the cup.  Voila!  pure water.

If you have stream water, you can boil the water for 3 minutes to kill any parasites.  Be careful, however, and check upstream for animal corpses or industrial pollution before taking the water and boiling it.

If you are bugging in and have a well, make sure that you have the capability of hand pumping your well in case the power goes out.

Have a 55 gallon drum to collect rainwater in the open, and under your houses gutters to collect more.  Understand, however, that gutter water will require more filtering/purification than rainwater collected in the open.  ALL sources of PAW water (with the possible exception of hand-pumped well water) will require filtering and purification.  

The kind folks helping to contribute to this thread (thank you so much!  seriously!) have offered great ideas for water filtration.  A Berkey water filter, I have heard, is one of the best.  Filters, of course, eventually lose effectiveness or become clogged.  You can potentially backwash filters at the end of their life to eek out a few more gallons, but for high end filtration you will either need a lot of filters on hand, or come up with a more permanent solution. 

I heartily recommend the filtration solutions mentioned above, as well as the iodine tablets and so on.  However, if you are looking at long long term PAW survival, nothing can beat a fire powered water distiller.  You can clean it out, and re-use it until the metal rots away.  A decent water distiller (homemade, mind you) can last for 100 years if kept maintained.

A good stop-gap solution to take you from the apocalyptic event until you are able to retrieve water from your water sources may be found in keeping 2 or 3 55 gallon drums full of potable water in storage.  Or, you can store several cases of gallon water jugs, or 5 gallon water bottles.

*Three Weeks Without Food*

I will go ahead and post this so far, and give 'food' a post of its own next, as foodstuffs, food storage, hunting and so on will certainly be a very detailed and very very long post -- it deserves a post of it's own.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> A lot of you may think I am nuts but I have saved my eye from an infection , a bad earache.
> Poison oak that got infected  with a darling little green can called Bag Balm. I would never be without it.


That is probably the one 'deep country down home remedy' with the most verifiable anecdotal evidence supporting it that I have ever encountered, actually.  Some folks in the rural south will use bag balm for EVERY-THING you can imagine, and swear by it.  Most of the anecdotal evidence I have seen backs up their faith in the stuff.  Considering what it IS, I think the _name_ is a little oo-key, but that won't stop me from using good stuff.  Good call.

----------


## Meatwasp

Another niffty trick for poison oak. When the first sign and I do I mean the first sign of it take two teaspoons of cream of tarter in a glass of water. An old miner told me that and it worked like a charm.

----------


## Kalifornia

> You can always try these guys:
> 
> http://www.nyp-corp.com/sandbags.htm...FQIbgQodihhexw
> 
> or here is even better:
> 
> http://www.safetycentral.com/floodprotsan.html
> 
> 
> ...


Having fought off midwest floods, I can tell you that a thousand sandbags isnt all that much.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Having fought off midwest floods, I can tell you that a thousand sandbags isnt all that much.


That's true, and honestly I would probably want about 2500 on hand for fortifying a home.  However, remember that fortifying a bug in location with cover takes a lot fewer sandbags than holding off a flood.

----------


## Dr.3D

This stuff I really nice to have when you need something that will kill microbes.
I've been using this stuff for around 10 years and find it very good at what it does.
This stuff could save your life.  I currently keep at least one 4oz. bottle in my BOB.



Water Treatment ChartAmount of Water 	Filtered Water 	Water with Ice 	Tap Water 	Untreated Water
One glass* 	1-3 drops 	     2-4 drops 	   3-5 drops 	     5-10 drops
One pint* 	  2-5 drops 	      4-8 drops      5-10 drops       10-15 drops
One quart 	5-10 drops 	 10-15 drops 	10-20 drops 	 15-25 drops
One gallon 	10-20 drops 	15-30 drops 	20-40 drops 	25-50 drops
*Allow treated water to stand for at least 10 minutes.
Let stand for a minimum of 30 minutes.

Other Uses

More Uses

Still More Uses

Information about GSE

----------


## Kalifornia

> That's true, and honestly I would probably want about 2500 on hand for fortifying a home.  However, remember that fortifying a bug in location with cover takes a lot fewer sandbags than holding off a flood.


Im actually amazed at how little sand will stop a high velocity projectile.   Handgun rounds actually penetrate better than any rifle round tested.  (although Im sure .50 bmg would be a different story).

http://http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot7.htm

----------


## Doktor_Jeep

Glad to see a survival thread in place.

It does have something to do with bearing arms. Preparedness and self-reliance is a part of resistance to tyranny. Food and money are weapons and far worse than bombs or guns. 

They can try to shoot us all or use guns to make us submit, but hunger is so much easier for the enemy.


But...

Do not confuse survivalism with resistance. Survivalists only stay in place long enough for whatever monster in the PAW (like a new Hitler or Stalin) to make a project of.  Real results come from the militia that does not intend to run off and hide until some "tactical team" finds them and teaches a short lesson in how any position becomes indefensable over time. 

Stay alive, but don't stay out. Liberty needs able men who will fight for it.

----------


## Kludge

Don't forget your iPod and solar charger. God forbid you go a night without watching "Lazy Scranton".

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Glad to see a survival thread in place.
> 
> It does have something to do with bearing arms. Preparedness and self-reliance is a part of resistance to tyranny. Food and money are weapons and far worse than bombs or guns. 
> 
> They can try to shoot us all or use guns to make us submit, but hunger is so much easier for the enemy.
> 
> 
> But...
> 
> ...


http://ncmilitia.org/
http://www.ncmilitia.org/phpBB2/index.php
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=131135

I'll be at Dixie Gun and Knife on Saturday May 3rd wearing a MARPAT boonie and URBAN MARPAT utilities until 1300 when I will be relocating to Cup a Joes on Hillsborough St.

----------


## SL89

Another good thread Gunny. See ya later on Zombie.

----------


## tekrunner

Gunny,
There's a rumor that there may be some problems in the Pacific NW the first week of May. In an emergency I've got preps but am worried about very intelligent and well trained people storming my house for food and such...
If you could point me to one good tactical resource on defending a house what would it be? BTW, thanks for the advice thus far.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Gunny,
> There's a rumor that there may be some problems in the Pacific NW the first week of May. In an emergency I've got preps but am worried about very intelligent and well trained people storming my house for food and such...
> If you could point me to one good tactical resource on defending a house what would it be? BTW, thanks for the advice thus far.


Well, first and foremost, who all knows you have food?  If nobody knows you have food, then you are in a lot less danger than if everybody knows you have food.

Secondly, if people are coming to get supplies, then they are a lot less likely to storm your house if it's perceived as a hard target.  Simple things, like exterior lights that point out without illuminating the house itself will help to create that impression.  Also, some kind of early warning system helps to create an impression of a hard target.  

My early warning system is a chain link fence that completely surrounds the house and contains a dog.

However, you can also (if you have gobs of money) come up with solar powered break-beam lasers to detect movement -- just be prepared for a lot of false alarms being outdoors.  If you have the money to do this, then you can also set up an automation trigger for lighting.  Trip the beam and the outdoor lights come on, followed by a couple interior lights in strategic locations.  Even if you never wake up, an attacker will probably look for easier pickings at that point.

One thing I used to do as a kid a lot was to take a bag of M-80's, a bunch of model rocket igniters, a bunch of 9v batteries, clothespins, some aluminum foil, some wire, some cardboard, fishing line, and 90mph tape and make trip wires.  Nothing that would harm anybody, but something that would simply set off an M-80 whenever the tripwire was pulled out of the clothespin.

An easier solution is to take all your leftover cans from canned foods, wash them out, paint them to match your surroundings, and hang them from trees on line (or on fences) so that they make a racket whenever a line is stepped on or kicked, or a fence is being climbed.

If your early warning system goes off and you look outside to see 2-3 shadowy figures on approach, a simple warning shot will almost certainly send them looking for easier pickings.  If they continue coming after that, then they are specifically targeting YOU and they probably want something a little more involved than food stores.

You have to put yourself in their shoes.  If you think a random house may have food, and you are wiling to break in and take it, then you will be looking for "the lowest hanging fruit" instead of the one that's neigh on impossible to get.  And then, by the time YOU become the 'lowest hanging fruit,' hopefully you will have gotten plenty of warning from your neighbors that the bad guys are in the area.  

At that point, then, you can start horse-trading.  ESPECIALLY if you have enough food stored up.  Go up to a fairly competent (but hungry) neighbor and say, "I'll give you a pound of rice a week and a can of meat a month if you help me keep watch." (but only if you can trust him enough to not gather 15 people and storm your house himself!)

Honestly, I could go on for days here.  But back to the original question -- where to get tactical training.  That's actually a tough one.  Your best bet will be to network with others of a like mind and just 'come up together' with training.  Go to a gun show, the flea market, and army surplus stores and get Army and Marine Corps field manuals, and learn as much book knowledge as you can absorb, and then get with fellow survivalists and practice.  Join an airsoft league (preferably) or if not a paintball league.  Airsoft tends to be more 'tactical' and paintball tends to be more 'sport.'

You can hook up with like-minded folk at:

http://www.shtfmilitia.com/index.php
and
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/index.php

to start with.

I'll get more into weapons training in the "weapons" installment of this thread, following the food storage post that I'll be posting in the next 24 hours.

----------


## Kludge

> One thing I used to do as a kid a lot was to take a bag of M-80's, a bunch of model rocket igniters, a bunch of 9v batteries, clothespins, some aluminum foil, some wire, some cardboard, fishing line, and 90mph tape and make trip wires.  Nothing that would harm anybody, but something that would simply set off an M-80 whenever the tripwire was pulled out of the clothespin.


Ahhh.... You're one-of-a-kind Gunny. Thanks for the post, it's always good to know how to be best prepared (and be prepared...).

----------


## amy31416

> One thing I used to do as a kid a lot was to take a bag of M-80's, a bunch of model rocket igniters, a bunch of 9v batteries, clothespins, some aluminum foil, some wire, some cardboard, fishing line, and 90mph tape and make trip wires.  Nothing that would harm anybody, but something that would simply set off an M-80 whenever the tripwire was pulled out of the clothespin.


You, sir, are the MacGyver of RPF. *bows down*

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> You, sir, are the MacGyver of RPF. *bows down*


ROFL - not quite!  Those are actually amazingly simple to make.  I didn't have any sort of plan, I made the design up myself, but that's more of a testament to how ridiculously simple they are to make than any sort of design prowess on my part.

If you have ever seen an M-80, it's a cylinder shaped fire cracker with a loose fuze sticking out of the side.  A model rocket igniter, is little more than a match head with 2 wires sticking out of it.  Pull the fuze, insert the igniter, tape down, and any 9v DC current will result in an instantaneous M-80 BANG!



A note if you plan on actually DOING this -- do not connect the battery until everything is in place -- AFTER the whole thing is taped up, AFTER the fishing line is attached, AFTER both ends are secured to trees, and AFTER the piece of cardboard is firmly breaking the circuit.

It helps to actually use a 9 volt battery snap on connector which you can get real cheap and re-use.  You do NOT want the M-80 going off while building this thing, and CERTAINLY not while you are holding it.  M-80's are a bit powerful, and can damage your hand!

So build the whole thing attaching the wires to the 9 volt battery snap on connecter, put everything including trip wire in place, and the last thing you do before leaving it is to snap the connector onto the battery.

----------


## Athan

> Honestly, I could go on for days here.


Well if your offering! We aren't going anywhere.

----------


## amy31416

Thanks for the diagram--looks like it'd be fun to put together (or earn you an honorary Darwin's Award  )

----------


## Dr.3D

It is sad how in some states, they won't let people have M80 fireworks... for that matter anything that goes bang or flies through the air is outlawed.  

In those states, it is easier to use a popper round (blank) for a 12 gauge shot gun and a spring trigger to snap the cap.  The entire device can be made out of a small piece of 3/4 inch steel pipe and some reducing couplings.   Along with those, you would need a bolt and some nuts and a spring.   Not all that hard to build... but then that raises the question of whether they would call that a bomb and arrest you for having the harmless noise making device.

----------


## Kade

> Preparing for the PAW (Post Apocalyptic World)
> 
> Preparing for the PAW is neither cheap nor easy.  As in all things, you can be frugal or you can be lavish.  There is no one set of equipment and foodstuffs, but rather a set of basic principles to abide by in the preparation which can be addressed frugally or expensively.  These principles can be laid out in segments as follows:
> 
> Bugging In/Bugging Out
> Medical
> Food
> Weapons
> Ammunition
> ...


My plan:

Start a business that sells survival gear to whackjobs who believe in the end of the world, including a card company that promises to deliver your cards to other non-believers post rapture. 

Buy land and other businesses.

Take all the money I make off my new company and invest in other companies that are equally abusing the market. 

Buy more property, physical and intellectual.

Use my charm, sex appeal and money to have secret affairs with married women and single women.

Buy myself a presidency or senatorial seat (after a public conversion to Protestantism)

Use my charm, sex appeal, money, and power to have open affairs with other married women and single young women.

Con the American public into funding my ridiculous lifestyle and property owning.  


Renounce my religion near my deathbed, saying that I only lied about it to get elected. Self publish my memoirs, donating massive amounts of fortune to global projects, networks, and Universities. Create several trusts to promote certain ideals. Self publish my novels and notes. Freeze my sperm in holding banks across the planet, allowing access to qualified participants.

Die and leave my wealth to my numerous children, legitimate and the earlier illegitimate who come forward. 

Free Market baby, love and live, and learn how to abuse it.

Be an evolutionary success.

----------


## JTM

there are two types of water purification to be had that can be useful and very easy to set up.

Ground Filtration.  

At a river this is easiest... about 6 inches from the bank, dig a small trench.  Watch the trench fill up with water that's coming through the dirt.  Collect the water.

H2O2 purification.

Then take it home and add H2O2 to it (1000 ppm is fine) and shine a UV light (UVC works best, but is more dangerous.  Using UVA is fine as well) on it.  H2O2 doesn't last forever though.  but it's dirt cheap.

Your water will be clean enough to drink.  The second step is really overkill.  Technically you only need to filter it through the ground to get the bacteria out.

----------


## Dr.3D

> there are two types of water purification to be had that can be useful and very easy to set up.
> 
> Ground Filtration.  
> 
> At a river this is easiest... about 6 inches from the bank, dig a small trench.  Watch the trench fill up with water that's coming through the dirt.  Collect the water.
> 
> H2O2 purification.
> 
> Then take it home and add H2O2 to it (1000 ppm is fine) and shine a UV light (UVC works best, but is more dangerous.  Using UVA is fine as well) on it.  H2O2 doesn't last forever though.  but it's dirt cheap.
> ...


Or just use GSE as I described in my previous post.

----------


## JTM

meh... i like the ground filtration.  works very well.  plus i don't have to carry *Anything* around to do it.  and will work well after you've run out of GSE.

----------


## DirtMcGirt

Not sure if this was posted but its PDF of US Army Survival Manual FM 21-76
http://www.equipped.com/fm21-76.htm

----------


## the_british_are_coming

i pray for the sake of everyone who reads this thread that i am not the only one who has a problem with this statement:

"Weapons will be very important. Do not underestimate the utility of the .22 rifle! you can get 1000 rounds of .22 LR for $20 and they don't make a whole lot of noise (which draws a lot of attention!)"


A .22 rifle doesn't make enough noise to get noticed, but a 9mm pistol will bring down the evil hordes??????????


have you ever fired a gun that wasn't attached to a nintendo????


i'm sorry, but wow... seriously?  i fully agree with the utility of a .22, but to say that it doesn't make a whole lot of noise just devastates your credibility... 

they make more than enough noise to "draw attention..."

unless you grew up watching movies where people hunted all day with .22's, but stepping on a TWIG alerted the evil monster to where the good guys were...

----------


## Kalifornia

> i pray for the sake of everyone who reads this thread that i am not the only one who has a problem with this statement:
> 
> "Weapons will be very important. Do not underestimate the utility of the .22 rifle! you can get 1000 rounds of .22 LR for $20 and they don't make a whole lot of noise (which draws a lot of attention!)"
> 
> 
> A .22 rifle doesn't make enough noise to get noticed, but a 9mm pistol will bring down the evil hordes??????????
> 
> 
> have you ever fired a gun that wasn't attached to a nintendo????
> ...


Your posts today are pretty abrasive.

The OP shoots .556 and .308.  Relative to those chamberings, a .22 is a whisper.   Hell, relative to my .45, a .22 is a whisper. 

Outdoor shooting a .22... crack crack

Outdoor shooting a .308 BOOM BOON

big difference.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> i pray for the sake of everyone who reads this thread that i am not the only one who has a problem with this statement:
> 
> "Weapons will be very important. Do not underestimate the utility of the .22 rifle! you can get 1000 rounds of .22 LR for $20 and they don't make a whole lot of noise (which draws a lot of attention!)"
> 
> 
> A .22 rifle doesn't make enough noise to get noticed, but a 9mm pistol will bring down the evil hordes??????????
> 
> 
> have you ever fired a gun that wasn't attached to a nintendo????
> ...


When you are in the PAW hunting rabbit for survival, you aren't exactly evading NVA in the bush.  

Depending on the model .22 you are shooting (a Ruger 10/22 is a lot louder than a Marlin .22, for instance) the sound of a .22 can get utterly lost in "woods noises" at around 150 to 200 yards in dense forest.

And as to choosing a .22 over a 9mm, if you shoot a rabbit with a 9mm there won't be that much of it left to eat, whereas with a .22 there won't really be a lot of damage at all.  Not to mention, a .22 with a scope can hit a rabbit in the head at 75 yards with no problem, but a 9mm pistol will have to be within 25 yards or less to guarantee a body hit.

And yes, a 9mm is a LOT louder than a .22 LR -- especially a Marlin .22

----------


## rancher89

I'd choose a 22 for hunting small game anyday, numerous reasons, mostly stated already, but it will be lighter for cross country scrambling.....

----------


## SeanEdwards

What this thread needs is useful information about subsistence farming, or links to good sites.

----------


## Dr.3D

> When you are in the PAW hunting rabbit for survival, you aren't exactly evading NVA in the bush.  
> 
> Depending on the model .22 you are shooting (a Ruger 10/22 is a lot louder than a Marlin .22, for instance) the sound of a .22 can get utterly lost in "woods noises" at around 150 to 200 yards in dense forest.
> 
> And as to choosing a .22 over a 9mm, if you shoot a rabbit with a 9mm there won't be that much of it left to eat, whereas with a .22 there won't really be a lot of damage at all.  Not to mention, a .22 with a scope can hit a rabbit in the head at 75 yards with no problem, but a 9mm pistol will have to be within 25 yards or less to guarantee a body hit.
> 
> And yes, a 9mm is a LOT louder than a .22 LR -- especially a Marlin .22


So true, my .22lr pistol is a heck of a lot louder than my Marlin Model 60 .22lr.

I don't like to shoot the pistol without hearing protection whereas my Marlin Rifle is hardly a pop when fired.  In the PAW, one could easily bring down large game with a .22lr if they were shining with a Maglite and aiming for the two bright spots.  A head shot doesn't care if you used a .45 or a .22, the two work just as well.

I've gone out at night with a Maglite and seen those two bright spots deer make  and they are usually only 75 yards out.  I could easily aim at the two bright spots (eyes) and fire a couple of rounds.   I'm pretty sure I would bring down the deer without hardly making any noise at all.

----------


## rancher89

> What this thread needs is useful information about subsistence farming, or links to good sites.


look near the front of the thread, I posted some really helpful links

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> look near the front of the thread, I posted some really helpful links


I agree, extremely useful. I'll reiterate those links with my next installment. Very appropriate too, as the next installment is foodstuffs.

----------


## LittleLightShining

Bump

----------


## weslinder

Maybe I should post this in the Ron Paul Rifles, but this thread inspired me to actually buy the Remington Model 597 that I've looked at the past two times I was in my sporting goods store.  I'll post an actual pic later, but here's a stock pic:



$150 with a decent barrel, and I added a 30-round magazine.

----------


## SL89

Thanks Gunny! I have settled into ZH forums thanks to a previous post. Keep these coming, this forum needed some practical info.

----------


## Doktor_Jeep

This reminds me of the Frugals Squirrels days...


Old survival website that has been around for years.

http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/vb/index.php

----------


## weslinder

Here's the Remington 597 that this thread inspired:

----------


## Doktor_Jeep

Ah, great choice. Nice game getter and plinkomatic. 

Master the irons first BEFORE you go scope and start itching for a trigger job (the mods disease that infects all .22 rifle shooters)

----------


## Dr.3D

Sometimes we don't have the convenience of being able to get yeast at the store and have to find other ways to raise bread.

I found this web site with the following instructions on how to make Sourdough Starter.  I'm sure there are other web sites with more information on this subject but this is probably enough to get people informed as to how to make bread without the option of store bought bread yeast.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...?page=2&cat=22




> These directions will take you through the process of making the simplest sourdough starter. First, combine 2 tablespoons of whole wheat flour and 1.5 tablespoons of warm water in the bottom of a plastic or glass container, preferably a bowl with a wide mouth so that it will be easier to stir later. Cover your bowl loosely with plastic wrap, then let it sit at room temperature for a full twenty four hours. After the first waiting period, add another 2 TBSP flour and 1.5 TBSP water, and let your sourdough starter sit untouched for another full day. Continue to repeat the process of adding ingredients and letting them ferment overnight until youve had your sourdough starter going for a total of seven days. Congratulations! Youve just created your first full, vibrant batch of sourdough starter. Thats all there is to it. Now, you can use your starter to bake a loaf of bread, or you can grow it according to the directions below.
> Making Sourdough starter
> 
> Growing Your Starter
> 
> Because sourdough starter contains a type of yeast made up of living organisms, if you feed a starter new materials, it will reproduce and increase. To grow your starter into a bigger batch, just add more flour and water. In twenty four hours, the organisms in your sourdough starter will have thoroughly incorporated these new materials, lending them the same taste and texture as the rest of the batch. You can add as much food to your starter as you want, so long as you follow the proportion of one generous of cup of flour to a cup of water. Stir gently, but dont worry about mixing the ingredients too thoroughly; leaving a few lumps of flour is fine, as these will simply get digested by the starter.
> 
> Keeping A Starter
> 
> To preserve your sourdough starter, keep it in your refrigerator in a plastic container. Dont seal the mixture completely, as the micro-organisms in your starter need oxygen in order to survive. However, it is important to cover the mixture so that it doesnt dry out in your fridge. To best protect your sourdough starter, loosely drape a layer of plastic wrap over the top of the container. Stored this way, sourdough starter can last untouched for up to a month. Whenever you want to use some of your starter, just grow it according to the directions above, then leave some in the fridge for next time. If you grow your starter once a month, you can keep it going for decades!


It might not be a bad idea to print a copy of this information and keep it with your food stores.

----------


## Athan

Gunny, just a kind reminder. You haven't yet posted your "Food" section post.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Gunny, just a kind reminder. You haven't yet posted your "Food" section post.


I appreciate that -- I have been going nuts with the Primary and a GOP meeting yesterday, so I am now in the process of composing it as we speak.  ;-)

Thanks, and you can expect to see it here by this afternoon.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Preparing for the PAW (Post Apocalyptic World)
> 
> *Food*
> 
> Food storage is also important.  When the world goes to hell in a handbasket, you aren't likely to find goodies at your local Wal Mart.  Food stores tend to fall into 3 categories -- MRE's, Canned and/or freeze dried long term food stores, and bulk commodity foodstuffs.  MRE's can be had military surplus, and will store longer than 10 years if kept under 60 degrees.  MRE's can be had less expensively as knock-offs and are nearly as good, but MRE's are damn expensive.  One year's supply for one person can run into the $5000 range.  Canned long term food stores can be had with shelf lifes from 5 years to 100 years, and tend to be less expensive, one year for one person running around $1000 to $2000.  Commodity foodstuffs include rice, wheat flour, dried beans etc, and are the cheapest of the lot, one year for one person coming in at $200 to $500.  Your best bet is a combination of the three.  Some MRE's for the BOB/BOV and anytime you may be out of the house for an extended period of weeks or months; some canned meats and vegetables, and some commodities.


Food is very important for the PAW.  Having enough food for your party to survive the duration is very important, and having enough extra food to barter for things you may need is also a good idea.

The real concern here, is long term storage.  The nation could go to hell in a handbasket tomorrow, next year, 10 years from now, or never.  If you get food to store that goes bad in a year, but the S doesn't HTF for another 7 years, then you wind up with a large stock of foodstuffs that may be more harmful than helpful.

If you go with cans of food from the grocery store, these tend to expire in 18 months.  They are still useful, so long as you maintain proper rotation of your stock, so that at any given time you have good long term food.  Always prominently label your foodstuffs with the acquisition date, and (if known) the expiration date.  That will help a lot with rotation.  A simple practice for rotation is to put your new stuff in back, and pull from the front to eat from.  If you plan on going with grocery store canned goods, then buying the full lot up front can mean that you have to mostly eat out of your food stores *now* while replacing what you eat, in order to start the rotation going.  The better bet if you go with grocery store canned goods, is to buy 3x what you eat on a regular basis, and store up the 2/3 that you don't eat, to establish your rotation AS you grow your food stores.

As I mentioned, long term storage food stocks fall into three basic categories.  Well, 4 really, if you include the freeze dried stuff, but they really fall somewhere in-between MRE's and canned goods.

My own food plan is about 10% MRE, 40% Canned Long Term, and 50% Commodity.  

*MRE's, Meals Ready To Eat*

MRE's are the most expensive of the bunch.  I have heard a rumor that at the Fayetteville, NC flea market, a case of 12 can be had for $24.  I have not seen that, but given that a case of 12 military grade MRE's usually go for $70, I'm slightly dubious, although I can believe it, considering the environment of Fayetteville, and the mindset of members of the military.

MRE's are the perfect solution for long term food storage, and if you can actually afford tons of them, then I'd lean heavily in that direction.  Stored at 65 degrees fahrenheit, they will last for 10 years without losing flavor, and probably 18 years before actually going 'bad' and losing nutritional value.  Stored at 70 degrees, that number comes down only to 8.5 years/15.5 years, and at 80 degrees, it's 6.5 years/12.5 years.

MRE's contain a full meal, and a water activated entree heater.  The heater contains a chemical (probably sodium based) that reacts to water by producing heat.  If you open the heater bag, slip in the unopened entree, add water, and then let it sit for 3-5 minutes, your entree will be steaming hot with no fire or cooking required.

MRE's also contain side dishes, snack, and dessert, along with condiments like salt, pepper, tabasco, and my favorite in the field: instant coffee, creamer, and sugar.  As bizarre as it sounds, if I was in the field and needed a burst of energy, I'd take the coffee, creamer, and sugar, pour them in my mouth and chew on the mixture of powder for a bit, and then swig it down with a bit of my canteen water.  It really is not as bad as it sounds, and can really help when you are at the end of your rope energy-wise.

MRE's can be had from tons of places.  There are also different kinds/brands of MRE to be had.  I tend to rely on military grade MRE's because that is what I am familiar with.  I have heard that Canadian MRE's are better, but have never tried them.

Look for them online, or on E-Bay, at Army Surplus Stores, camping stores, flea markets (especially those around Army bases) or, I have heard rumors of them being found at Sam's club and CostCo from time to time.  Definitely do your research though, as the prices can vary wildly from as low as $25/case of 12, to as high as $90/case of 12.

*Freeze Dried Meals and Entrees*

A company called Mountain House sells freeze dried meals and entrees that store for 7 years in the pouch, or 25 years in the can.  These, of course, require reconstitution with hot water.  Mountain House food is VERY popular with survivalists as well as backpackers, because of their long storage life, low space requirements, and light weight.

http://www.mountainhouse.com/

They sell a 3 day kit for one person for $47.29, and a 7 day kit for one person for $116.00.  These each contain 3 full meals per day, per person.

*Canned Long Term Food Storage*

This is the lynch-pin of my long term food storage plan.  I have discovered (through another forum) a company called MRE Depot http://www.mredepot.com/servlet/StoreFront that has MRE's (very expensive ones) freeze dried foods, and canned long term storage.  I am very impressed with their canned long term storage options, especially with regard to their canned meats.

For instance, they have canned beef chunks:

http://www.mredepot.com/servlet/the-...an-Beef/Detail

Which, for $69.95 buys you 21 pounds of beef chunks.  That's only $3.33 a pound, and because of how they actually fill the can with raw uncooked beef chunks, then can and seal it, and THEN cook it completely, it will store for 10 years.

To me, that's very impressive.  They also have ridiculously useful stuff, like a whole cooked chicken in a big can for $9.95:

http://www.mredepot.com/servlet/the-...en-Meat/Detail

(They offer discounts on full cases of 6 chickens)

Canned cheese, butter, chicken chunks, ground beef, pork, sausage, turkey, catsup and a lot more.

They also have long term storage canned desserts, which I found to be unusual; $15.99 for a 26 oz 10+ year shelf life Chocolate Bourbon Cake:

http://www.mredepot.com/servlet/the-...-Whisky/Detail

Four plus year storage canned garden seeds:

http://www.mredepot.com/servlet/the-...e-seeds/Detail

Specifically chosen to be heirloom seeds and non-hybrid seeds so that you can harvest your own seeds for the next season.  I just bought a case of these canned seeds and am awaiting delivery as we speak.

Canned flours sugars, and rices:

http://www.mredepot.com/servlet/the-...ods/Categories

Which use a "nitrogen flush then vacuum pack" process which gives whole grain brown rice a shelf life of "indefinite" which might mean 100 years or more.  Normally whole grain brown rice goes rancid after 3-4 years.

Explore the site, they have all kinds of useful stuff.  Another thing I have gotten from them, have been those little silica pack oxygen absorbers.  I buy (for my commodity food plan) bulk whole grain brown rice, which I then vacuum seal in 1.5 pounds per bag, with one of those oxygen absorbers inside each one to prevent/reduce "rancidification."  That boosts storage of the whole grain brown rice to something like 7-8 years.

*Commodity Foodstuffs*

These normally make up 80% of a given food storage plan, because they are far less expensive than the other options, and take up a lot less storage space.  Their shelf life, however, may vary widely depending on how they are stored.

These are the items that you are best able to get in bulk at your local CostCo, Sam's Club, or BJ's.  I am sure you can find them over the internet, but given that the cost of commodity foodstuffs are set a lot like the price of gold is set (this is why they are called 'commodity') you are probably better off getting them from a bulk/warehouse type store.  Now, your average Food Lion/Kroger's will tack a profit premium onto the end of the pricing, so they will be a bit more expensive.

These are mostly a matter of pure preference.  You may prefer lima beans over kidney beans.  In either case, get a variety.  Yes, you can go out and get 5 100 pound bags of rice, but do you really want to eat nothing but rice, rice, and only rice every single day for the next 1-2 years?

In either case, look for dried beans, rices, flour, sugar.  Get them in the biggest bags possible for the best per-volume pricing, and plan on using a vacuum sealer to store them in much smaller lots.

When it comes to rice, I do prefer the taste of white rice, but the fact is that the nutritional value of plain white rice is somewhat low.  You could potentially keep your belly full, but die of malnutrition (or at least not have the energy to work).  So focus more towards brown whole grain rice, which isn't quite as delectable, is slightly more expensive, and doesn't store for nearly as long.  But the method of vacuum sealing with a silica gel oxygen absorption pack mentioned above will help increase shelf life tremendously.

_Packaging Your Commodity Foodstuffs for Storage_

Even if the S never HTF, it is a good idea to get a vacuum sealer.  When I need to use one, I go to my mother and stepfather's house to use theirs, so as long as you have one accessible, it is not as important to have one in your house personally.

I take my 50 pound bag of rice, and scoop out a full-to-the-brim 1-quart mason jar of rice, dump it into the bag, toss in a silica gel pack, and then vacuum seal it and set it aside.  35-40 jars later, your 50 pound bag should be empty, and you should have a whole bunch of little 1+ pound bags of vacuum sealed oxygen deprived rice.  Then dump all of those into a 5 gallon sealable bucket, toss about 7 silica packs on top (once you have the bucket filled to the brim!) and then put the lid on it, and possibly seal the lid with duct tape to ensure an absolutely air-tight seal.  

You can do the same thing with beans, rice, sugar, or any other commodity foodstuff there are.  

One thing I have been thinking about doing (but have not done yet) is instead of filling one bucket with rice, another with lima beans etc etc; is to calculate the ratio in which I will use them, and then pack the buckets with a mixture of commodities.  

For instance, say one bucket has 15 pounds of sugar, 2 pounds of salt, 20 pounds of brown rice, 10 pounds of white flour, 10 pounds of wheat flour, 5 pounds of white rice, 5 pounds of lima beans, 5 pounds of kidney beans, and 5 pounds of black eyed peas.  That way, I can just open one bucket and use it until it's empty instead of opening 5 different buckets to gather a menu I might want; thus maintaining the integrity of the seal on the other buckets, to keep them stored longer.

You will also want to store your food in a cool, dark place.  For most food, the difference in shelf life between 60 degrees and 70 degrees is significant, and the difference in shelf life between 70 degrees and 80 degrees is dramatic.  If you have somewhere where they can be maintained at around 60 degrees without a lot of light, then you will have food stores for 10 years.

You store spices in the same way as commodities.  If you like pepper, then I would actually recommend using a pepper grinder and buying peppercorns, not only for long term storage (they store a LOT longer without losing flavor) but for everyday also, because fresh ground pepper is a lot better than already ground pepper.

*Growing Your Own Food* 

Even if you have 5 years of food stores, you never know what might happen.  You may get more people involved in your party, some of your food stores may be destroyed for whatever reason, you may need to barter some of your food stores out for medical supplies, or the 'emergency' might last longer than 5 years.

Bottom line is, no matter HOW much food you have stored, it is a good idea to be able to grow your own food, and it is an even further good idea to know how to do home canning, and have a canning kit available and on hand to store garden produce for consumption in the winter and spring.

The canned seeds mentioned above which sore for 4+ years are a great way to get started on this.  You can also store seeds in their envelopes by using the same vacuum seal with silica gel method as commodity foodstuffs to make them last as long as possible.

Regardless of which route you use to acquire and store seeds, it is important, very important to use heirloom and non-hybrid seeds.  If you use non heirloom (GMO) seeds, it is possible that your next generation will be sterile, and you will not have any seeds to continue growing, not to mention the potential health effects of GMO foods!  Likewise, hybrid seeds will not necessarily be very productive in the next generation.

It is important to save your seeds!  Once you grow your first crop, that crop will produce seeds which you can use to plant the next season.  If you do not save your seeds, you will have nothing to plant the next season, and you will be out begging for food.

Have a book handy on basic gardening and farming.

Don't overlook the usefulness of having chickens for meat and eggs, and possibly a cow for milk.  Hay and chicken feed are very easy to grow, and take very little attention.  Milk and eggs will be one of the first things to go in the PAW, so even if you never eat/drink them yourself, they will be a barter commodity as good as gold!

Now, nobody wants to care for cows and chickens for years and years waiting for them to become useful when the SHTF, so become friendly with some farmers so that you can buy one/some from him when it all goes to hell.

----------


## SeanEdwards

This thread just gets better and better. It should definetely be made into a sticky.





> Don't overlook the usefulness of having chickens for meat and eggs, and possibly a cow for milk.


I've heard that rabbits are a very easy farmable animal to work with, and they reproduce like rabbits so they're productive.

----------


## rancher89

goats will eat anything and are easy to raise also, you just need a little bit more room...

thanks, gunny for the thread

----------


## Meatwasp

Something very funny happened down here. My son made several early warning systems on our trail. One buzzed every time a cloud   went by. We called that a cloud counter. The other he installed by digging a trap door thing that was covered with dirt. But When the sun dried it iit moved like  a trap door that would fling people into nowhere.  It certainly frightened a lot of people  he removed that in a hurry. The other one the lizards would climb in the radio transmiter and  caused it to sound like a guitar going off.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Something very funny happened down here. My son made several early warning systems on our trail. One buzzed every time a cloud   went by. We called that a cloud counter. The other he installed by digging a trap door thing that was covered with dirt. But When the sun dried it iit moved like  a trap door that would fling people into nowhere.  It certainly frightened a lot of people  he removed that in a hurry. The other one the lizards would climb in the radio transmiter and  caused it to sound like a guitar going off.


ROFL!  I remember when I was a kid, and I used to make my M80 tripwires, there was very often a "POP!" followed by a deer or a feral dog tearing off into the woods...

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> goats will eat anything and are easy to raise also, you just need a little bit more room...
> 
> thanks, gunny for the thread


And goats do provide milk.  Good call!

And, anytime!  When I'm finally done with the series, I'll probably be posting it on several oter forums too, so it's helping me to get this knocked out also.  ;-)

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> This thread just gets better and better. It should definetely be made into a sticky.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard that rabbits are a very easy farmable animal to work with, and they reproduce like rabbits so they're productive.


I agree with this -- rabbits are a lot easier to raise, and provide a very renewable food source.

Additionally, you can start putting out feed corn for deer.  I don't necessarily agree with using feed corn to lure deer for ordinary hunting, but by making your back yard a haven for deer now, then in the PAW after the SHTF, all bts are off and survival becomes the rule of the day.

And thanks for the kind word!

----------


## Hawk45

Another plus for domestic rabbits is the fact they are the only red meat with 0 chloresterol (or however it is spelled).  LOL

No matter what you eat the human body DOES need protein to be able to do hard work.  And 'survival' is hard work!

Main thing is that the folks that prepare NOW can do it in some sort of comfort we are used to.  The folks that do not will not fare that well, if they survive at all.

----------


## TruckinMike

Noise maker:

1. Balloon 
2. Rocket igniters
3. Oxygen/acetylene rig
4. Trip wire, battery, and relay

Fill the balloon with 1/3 Acetylene and 2/3 oxygen. Tape rocket igniter to Balloon, then set trip wire, relay and battery.

When tripped, expect to feel the concussion at over 50 feet away! 

TMike

Note: Use a mylar balloon to keep gas from escaping over time.
Note#2: These are great for getting rid of grackles, and a lot cheaper than buying a propane grackle cannon.

----------


## Ozwest

Sorry, but I haven't read this thread.

But...

PAW =  Post Apocalyptic World  Good thing I don't have to spell or say Apocalyptic again.

Now I can just say PAW, and everyone will know who I am.

----------


## Ozwest

> I agree with this -- rabbits are a lot easier to raise, and provide a very renewable food source.
> 
> Additionally, you can start putting out feed corn for deer.  I don't necessarily agree with using feed corn to lure deer for ordinary hunting, but by making your back yard a haven for deer now, then in the PAW after the SHTF, all bts are off and survival becomes the rule of the day.
> 
> And thanks for the kind word!


Let your rabbits loose, and you'll soon be feeding the nation.

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

> Thats a hard call. Most EMTs use modern equipment like defibrilators, oxygen, nitroglycerin, neck braces, IV lines, etc. They are there to stabilize a person and get them to an emergency room for surgery or more advanced analysis. Basic First Aid, CPR is for until the EMTs arrive.
> 
>  It definitly would help to take such a course, as well as read about home remedies. Good to know basics for the start, simple little things like giving someone an asprin during a heart attack could save thier life. Id recommend taking a day CPR/First Aid class to give you an idea before taking an EMT program.


I noticed that no one mentioned us in the medical links...

Remote, Austere, Wilderness & Third World Medicine Forum:

http://medtech.syrene.net/forum/index.php

The site is more useful if you register.


We, ummm... wrote a book that you might be interested in:

Survival and Austere Medicine, 2nd edition.  You can download it here for free, or you can buy a copy at cost (we don't make anything) from Cafe Press:

http://www.aussurvivalist.com/downlo...0Final%202.pdf

Yes, I'm one of the authors.  We're trying to get a third edition out the door, with a lot more hands on procedures and how to, but it's been really slow going...

Austere medicine is a lot different than what you learn in EMT school.
IV solutions are most often used to stabilize someone on the way to surgery, if there is no surgery to go to, they become mostly irrelevant for this purpose.
They can also be used to establish a life line - if you have IV drugs and know how to use them.
They are also used to feed patients that can't eat.
You can make your own IV solutions.
BP cuffs and C-Collars are over rated.
You don't need a X-Ray machine to tell if someones leg is broken or fractured, a tunning fork and a stethoscope work fine.
You can make many medicines, including insulin.
Disposable supplies often aren't, but supplies designed to be reused are better.
Expiration dates, with few exceptions, are artificial and the real shelf life of drugs is much longer.  A lot depends on storage conditions, however.
etc.

-n

----------


## the_british_are_coming

> Your posts today are pretty abrasive.
> 
> The OP shoots .556 and .308.  Relative to those chamberings, a .22 is a whisper.   Hell, relative to my .45, a .22 is a whisper. 
> 
> Outdoor shooting a .22... crack crack
> 
> Outdoor shooting a .308 BOOM BOON
> 
> big difference.


 

Relative to stepping on a stick, a .22 is FREAKING LOUD!!!! didn't say "relative" to anything!!!!!  just grading it on it's own measures. 


in the woods, or in PAW, boom is boom, no matter how loud. 

BOTH ARE IDENTIFYING. Anyone who says different is only posting on a break from their video gaming.


ETA: Kalifornia... if i'm NOT abrasive... you know my account has been hacked.

----------


## the_british_are_coming

> When you are in the PAW hunting rabbit for survival, you aren't exactly evading NVA in the bush.  
> 
> Depending on the model .22 you are shooting (a Ruger 10/22 is a lot louder than a Marlin .22, for instance) the sound of a .22 can get utterly lost in "woods noises" at around 150 to 200 yards in dense forest.
> 
> And as to choosing a .22 over a 9mm, if you shoot a rabbit with a 9mm there won't be that much of it left to eat, whereas with a .22 there won't really be a lot of damage at all.  Not to mention, a .22 with a scope can hit a rabbit in the head at 75 yards with no problem, but a 9mm pistol will have to be within 25 yards or less to guarantee a body hit.
> 
> And yes, a 9mm is a LOT louder than a .22 LR -- especially a Marlin .22



Hey Bud. up until your post, NOBODY was talking about hunting. Just PAW existence.

If you want to change rules, that's fine, but you don't get to just pull sh!t into any straw-man argument you feel like. nope, doesn't work that way.


Oh, and btw, what exactly makes a 24 inch Marlin quieter than any other 24 inch .22 bolt-action rifle? i would love to know that.

----------


## Dr.3D

> *P*ost* A*pocalyptic *W*orld.
> There will be no "Fed"," Poaching", or PETA.
> Therefor YOU get the "cake".


Thanks pcosmar, I guess he didn't read the PAW part of the post.

Anyway...
Here is a little bit about putting up food for long term storage.

Long term food storage part 1
Long term food storage part 2
Long term food storage part 3
How to seal Mylar bags with a clothes iron

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Hey Bud. up until your post, NOBODY was talking about hunting. Just PAW existence.
> 
> If you want to change rules, that's fine, but you don't get to just pull sh!t into any straw-man argument you feel like. nope, doesn't work that way.


So what are you saying, that after society completely breaks down, human beings will no longer need to eat?




> Oh, and btw, what exactly makes a 24 inch Marlin quieter than any other 24 inch .22 bolt-action rifle? i would love to know that.


Well, if you had ever actually fired them, then the difference would be obvious.  And a Marlin Glenfield Model 60 is decidedly *not* a bolt action.

I for one have personally been on a firing line with several different models of .22 LR rifles, and without fail, the Marlins produce half or less the amount of noise.  

You hear POP POP pff pff POP pff POP pff pff POP POP, and with every 'POP' the 10/22s recoil, but with every 'pff' the Marlins recoil.

You simply saying 'it can't be so' doesn't change the fact of reality, no matter how hard you might want it to be.

By the way, I have seen you posting in several threads, and I am just curious -- why do you always pick the most active, useful, and generous contributors to RPF and label them 'plants'?

Also, I notice in your sig that you are proud of 'killing threads,' is it really an openly stated goal of yours to kill off any potentially useful threads within the Ron Paul Forums?

And, why are you always pitching a fit about how people who are experts in their respective fields, must be dead wrong when discussing any of the things they know the most about?  I get the impression that you would pitch a fit against an expert and prominent surgeon who is properly explaining an appendectomy, and wail on about how the surgeon must be an idiot.

Do you really think that people around here give you any credence?  You must know that Ron People are, by and large, critical thinkers, and far more capable than the average sheep of analyzing contributors on their own merits.  The fact is that in your 70 some-odd strong posting history, you have displayed zero merit, which is kind of a death-knell amongst critical thinkers such as we find on RPF.

Or, when everybody in a thread replies to you to tell you how much of an idiot you are, is that what you consider to be 'killing a thread?'

The bottom line is, pretty much everything you post is divorced from reality, and comes purely from the realm of your own fantasies.  The problem is, that Ron Paul people tend to be very critical thinkers, and cannot be influenced in the way that sheeple are.  Simply insinuating that someone is a moron doesn't work on us the way it works on McCain voters or Obama voters.  Too bad for you, huh?

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> I noticed that no one mentioned us in the medical links...
> 
> Remote, Austere, Wilderness & Third World Medicine Forum:
> 
> http://medtech.syrene.net/forum/index.php
> 
> The site is more useful if you register.
> 
> 
> ...


Hey, I really appreciate it.  Those are great links, and slam full of extremely useful information.  I've looked at them, and reccommend them for everyone concerned about medicine in the PAW.

----------


## Perry

Don't know about the rest of you but I'm not planning on sticking around post- Apocalypse.

----------


## Dr.3D

> Don't know about the rest of you but I'm not planning on sticking around post- Apocalypse.


Got a space ship?

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> *P*ost* A*pocalyptic *W*orld.
> There will be no "Fed"," Poaching", or PETA.
> Therefor YOU get the "cake".


Ehh, I wouldn't worry too much about this 'british' guy.  It is blatantly obvious from a review of his posting history that he is opposed to Ron Paul having any kind of influence on the real world, and since RP people tend to actualy pay attention to such things (unlike the sheeple in the rest of the world) then nobody here will take him seriously.  He is only here to create division amongst us and try to sow chaos within the RP Forums.  If these were John McCain Forums, then people might stand back and cheer him like it was WWF or some such, breaking chairs over peoples heads.  But the folks on here really don't go in for cheering the dirtiest fighter etc.  

Folks on RPF want facts and truth, not rhetoric and mindless b*tching.  I doubt you have to worry about him influencing anybodies opinion against you, no matter how many threads he follows you around to whine about you.  In fact, someoneone so obviously anti-Paul as he is, following you around from thread to thread to try and discredit you, probably BOOSTS your credibility on RPF, to tell you the truth!

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Don't know about the rest of you but I'm not planning on sticking around post- Apocalypse.





> Got a space ship?


Got room for a few more?

----------


## Kalifornia

> Got room for a few more?


Hell, Ill leave NOW!  Why wait around for PAW to blaze a new frontier?

----------


## Perry

> Got a space ship?


I have better than a spaceship.

----------


## Dr.3D

> I have better than a spaceship.


If you're counting on a pre-tribulation rapture, don't hold your breath.

----------


## Perry

> If you're counting on a pre-tribulation rapture, don't hold your breath.


When it is does not matter. Only that it is.
Too many people lose their way and waste time arguing about the "whens". 
It is neither required nor appointed unto man to know when.
Do I plan on packing a twelve gauge and wearing leather if I must weather the trib,
(whenever that may be)? I doubt it.

----------


## sfws09

http://http://apnews.myway.com/artic...D90S5MLG0.html

----------


## Dr.3D

> http://http://apnews.myway.com/artic...D90S5MLG0.html


Here is a corrected link that works. 

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080524/D90S5MLG0.html

----------


## Mini-Me

Damn, I thought I've seen pathetic before, but the_british_are_coming takes the cake for reckless and incessant mudslinging without contributing anything of substance to the conversation.

That said, I really hope Kade is right and Gunny is entirely overprepared for what's actually going to happen...otherwise, I'm entirely unprepared.  Sure, I'm expecting hard times.  I'm anticipating eventual economic collapse, food shortages and extremely high prices, and for a time, the store shelves might even be empty...but complete post-societal apocalypse?  That's a scary thought (although perhaps more welcoming than the nightmarishly oppressive scenario I'm imagining).  It's very likely that the bankrupt federal government will become increasingly socialistic and tyrannical, even to the point of putting all food on a ration system.  The control grid has been set out (and it's being tightened with Real ID, etc.), and living "off the grid" is eventually going to be nigh impossible...we may end up facing a lose/lose choice of living under an overt police state and martial law in the middle of a long economic depression or making an almost certainly suicidal stand against it (judging by the complacency of most Americans).  I'm just not seeing any lawless scenario under which overbearing government simply collapses and fades into nonexistence.  Governments have a way of perpetuating their existence, and if the federal government falls, it will simply be replaced by an even worse NAU government.
I do agree that desperate bands of looters can easily become an issue, but...the way I see it, there are two choices:
"Bugging in" seems to be the docile and passive life of a person blending in with the "I Love Big Brother" crowd in order to remain a part of society and ride out the storm.  Sure, you can purify your water and try to protect your stores of food with guns and ammo, but the first time you try that, you'll probably be taken in by the "proper authorities" for owning illegal firearms...so the best shot you have is probably to make it seem like you're as hungry as everyone else.  Then again, you can "bug in" Waco or Ruby Ridge style too, but..."Bugging out" seems to be the life of a fugitive on the run, especially considering the guns you need for hunting will probably become very, very illegal soon (once again leaving you with the choice of making a suicidal stand or not once you're "caught").

Neither choice is particularly appealing, but I'm not seeing many alternatives in the event that all peaceful and political liberty-saving measures fail.  Am I completely off base here?  Keep in mind, I'm probably the worst person in the whole world at survivalism.  Although I'm sharp and a critical thinker, I'm the same video-game-playing, sheltered couch potato that survivalists make fun of.   I've only fired a gun once in my life, I'm scared to death of chemicals and explosives (including firecrackers, since I'm adamant about keeping all of my fingers), I have no first aid knowledge, no farming/gardening knowledge, and to top it all off (giving away my age and overall inexperience for the first time ever on the forum ), I'm a recent college graduate still living at home with my parents.  In some ways, that may be for the best - uncertain economic/financial/political times are probably not the best ones for moving out and starting a lifetime of rent or mortgage payments and debt.  It's wise to minimize expenses.  On the other hand, that definitely limits the freedom I have to, say, learn how to handle firearms (let alone deal with arcane "black magic" like reloading).  Hell, I don't even know where to begin, muchless begin without arousing suspicion of being a nutcase.  

So I guess my question is, once again - am I completely off base here?  What kind of scenario are you guys (particularly Gunny) actually envisioning that necessitates all of these measures without making them almost futile (particularly with respect to guns)?

----------


## pcosmar

Mini-Me  
This thread is an examination of the "worst case "scenario. Surviving in a Post apocalyptic world.
Though I don't expect it to be a PAW, I do see things getting bad. This is a good discussion of how to deal with possible events and responses to them.
Survivalist is a mind set. Not a fearful response but one of preparedness. Much like the old Boy Scout motto, *Be Prepared.*
It goes to learning skills to become self sufficient and confident.
I like to live my life as comfortably as possible, but I always keep a plan "B".
When I chose my home, I considered Location, Water supplies, Heating (multiple fuels).
I dislike large cities, so I am far from one. I can grow food, hunt the many varieties of game, fish and heat and cook with wood if necessary.
For those in other situations, it is a consideration of what resources and skills they have and adding skills and tools that may be useful.  Keeping  in mind that things can change at any time and having a mental attitude to accept and adapt to those changes.

----------


## MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2

> So I guess my question is, once again - am I completely off base here?  What kind of scenario are you guys (particularly Gunny) actually envisioning that necessitates all of these measures without making them almost futile (particularly with respect to guns)?


Natural disaster?  Anyone familiar with Hurricane Katrina knows what it looks like when infrastructure breaks down.  Even the federal government suggests everyone should have food and water for 3 days.  I bet less than 5% actually do.

Serious pandemic?  I could envision scenarios where I wouldn't want to leave the house for a few weeks.  Again, I keep hearing about the threat.

Bioterrorism?  Who knows.

Anyone think congress doesn't have food and water for 3 days?  They have full fledged bunkers built to withstand nearly anything, for long periods of time.  I'll bet they have serious weaponry protecting their preperations. 

I look at it like this.  I spend about 2% of my efforts (or less) being prepared for some terrible scenarios.  I spend 98% of my efforts on more likely scenarios, like things staying relatively normal.  Because I'm somewhat prepared for something terrible, I spend little time thinking about it, and no time fearing it.  I've already done what I reasonably can.

I live in an area where hurricanes are a real threat every year.  Everyone knows it.  Even so, 99% of people don't have a week's worth of food and water.  When a hurricane develops, 10% run to the stores and empty them.  The rest prefer not to prepare at all.  What if something happens suddenly, like a tsunami?  

As far as weapons go... if you have a breakdown in infrastructure, you can't expect everyone to be civil.  I look at Katrina as a model.  In a really bad scenario, you might need to shoot your own food.

----------


## Smiley Gladhands

> To everyone on RonPaulForums. please read the respons from GunnyFreedom posted below.


This thread was really interesting and useful until you tried to start arguments over meaningless (and off-topic) minutiae.  I hope it can quickly recover from the distraction, and that you go find a less-useful thread to try and kill.

(p.s.-no response is needed...I will not respond to any response)

----------


## Mini-Me

> This thread was really interesting and useful until you tried to start arguments over meaningless (and off-topic) minutiae.  I hope it can quickly recover from the distraction, and that you go find a less-useful thread to try and kill.
> 
> (p.s.-no response is needed...I will not respond to any response)


Agreed, so *bump*.
Thanks to everyone for the insights, btw - I was thinking with a one-track mind, assuming the only threat is tyranny.

----------


## Time for Change

By far one of the most informative and truly interesting threads EVER.
A lot of time went into providing well thought out information, and it was delivered in a concise and thought provoking way.

Thanks to the OP and everyone for taking the time to share your experience and insight.

Keep 'em coming

----------


## yongrel

Yet another awesome thread, courtesy of Gunny. Thanks!

----------


## mexicanpizza

This thread is amazing.  This is why i registered www.apocalypsevan.com , but haven't gotten around to putting up a forum.   

edit: Looks like SHTFmilitia.com and zombiesquad have saved me the work!

----------


## amy31416

I didn't read through the entire thread, but what place does Spam have in the PAW?

----------


## Ozwest

No one's going to attack America.

Except...

It's own government.

I'd be having a town meeting, and blowing up bridges.

$#@! running for the hills.

----------


## Cowlesy

> I look at it like this.  I spend about 2% of my efforts (or less) being prepared for some terrible scenarios.  I spend 98% of my efforts on more likely scenarios, like things staying relatively normal.  Because I'm somewhat prepared for something terrible, I spend little time thinking about it, and no time fearing it.  I've already done what I reasonably can.


Totally in agreement with you.  I live in NYC, so if SHTF here, well, pretty much everyone is screwed.  That being said, I'd say 99.8% of the 8,000,000 people have no preparedness, so I am hoping my margin of actually thinking about this (my friends all laugh at me) will give me an edge.  It cracks me up when I pose the question "If you really needed to leave NYC immediately due to a catastrophic disaster, are you prepared to do so given there are 8,000,000 other people thinking the same thing, and we're on an island with only a few routes to the mainland?" and I get the "if you're so freaked out why are you here?" retort.

I'm not freaked out at all, or else, why would I live here?  I don't see anything wrong with being prepared.  Typically when you pose the 8,000,000 other people running for the exit argument, they start thinking about it a little more in a serious fashion.  Being Prepared and being Paranoid are two different schools of thought in my personal opinion.

Fortunately this Eagle Scout likes to hike because no one is driving out of this city if everyone tries to leave at once

----------


## amy31416

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best. There's no shame in that. 

From an economic standpoint, would it be akin to investing if non-perishable foods are stocked up on now? I mean, essentially, if the worst happens, it's a form of currency even more valuable than gold. 

Despite that, I still can't get down with Spam or chicken in a can. I'm sticking to tuna.

----------


## Ozwest

> Prepare for the worst, hope for the best. There's no shame in that. 
> 
> From an economic standpoint, would it be akin to investing if non-perishable foods are stocked up on now? I mean, essentially, if the worst happens, it's a form of currency even more valuable than gold. 
> 
> Despite that, I still can't get down with Spam or chicken in a can. I'm sticking to tuna.


Whiskey and cigarettes.

I'm well stocked.

----------


## amy31416

> Whiskey and cigarettes.
> 
> I'm well stocked.


Alcohol, tobacco and ________.

The trinity.

----------


## Ozwest

I am a natural indwelling of three persons.

Pretty good for an atheist.

I do my best...

----------


## Ozwest

Sometimes...

You are the Good - Bad - and the Ugly.

----------


## amy31416

> Sometimes...
> 
> You are the Good - Bad - and the Ugly.


Hey now. I have a bad side and a worse side--choose wisely!

----------


## Ozwest

*Trinity*...

----------


## Cowlesy

Someone on this board must have one of these bad-boys

----------


## Ozwest

Where do you get one of those *Bad Boys* Cowlesy?

----------


## Cowlesy

Here is an interesting idea for those of us in NYC that would compliment hiking.

http://www.militarybikes.com/products.html

Some interesting comparisons

http://www.militarybikes.com/comparison.html

It's been tested in Iraq, and you could also fold it up and carrying it when riding it might not be an option.  I may pick one of these up. If the worst happened and I had to go essentially back home, it'd take 15 days hiking with a pack, or 5 days with a bike.  I like the bike option better 

Just thought I'd share

----------


## Cowlesy

> Where do you get one of those *Bad Boys* Cowlesy?


beats me, that's why I wondered if anyone had one

----------


## Ozwest

> beats me, that's why I wondered if anyone had one


Be great for duck hunting.

----------


## Cowlesy

> Be great for duck hunting.


hahaha --- yeah especially with the hatch on the roof.

----------


## Ozwest

> hahaha --- yeah especially with the hatch on the roof.


Hounds would never had it so good!

----------


## pcosmar

I want a set of these for my truck.
http://www.mattracks.com/

From their gallery,



Perfect for my neighborhood.

----------


## newyearsrevolution08

> I want a set of these for my truck.
> http://www.mattracks.com/
> 
> From their gallery,
> 
> 
> 
> Perfect for my neighborhood.


that is sweet looking. Man I need to get myself land soon so I can start getting some toys together. Nice find.

I like the atv option myself
http://www.mattracks.com/html/atv_tracks.htm

They have videos of them here
http://www.litefootatv.com/html/video_clips.htm

----------


## Dr.3D

I found these pages to be quite interesting.
Canning Butter
Canning Dried Hamburger

I found them on this web site where there is a lot of good information:
End Times Report

----------


## amy31416

> I found these pages to be quite interesting.
> Canning Butter
> Canning Dried Hamburger
> 
> I found them on this web site where there is a lot of good information:
> End Times Report


Canned butter--that's a lot like ghee: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghee

----------


## Dr.3D

> Canned butter--that's a lot like ghee: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghee


Yes, except they didn't remove the milk solids from it.

Here is a recipe for making Ghee.
Glorious Golden Ghee (Neyyi)

----------


## amy31416

> Yes, except they didn't remove the milk solids from it.
> 
> Here is a recipe for making Ghee.
> Glorious Golden Ghee (Neyyi)


Yeah, I was wondering how much of a difference in taste that makes. Personally, I dig ghee.

----------


## Cowlesy

Who said the quote, "Give a man a fish. Feed him for a day.  Teach a man to fish.  Feed him for life."?

----------


## Dr.3D

> Who said the quote, "Give a man a fish. Feed him for a day.  Teach a man to fish.  Feed him for life."?


From what I understand, it was a fellow named Lao Tzu. 
http://blogwonks.com/2008/03/03/mond...cs-philosophy/

Here are other quotes from Lao Tzu.
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/au...l/lao_tzu.html

----------


## asgardshill

An RPF poster whose home was apparently in danger of being consumed by wildfire started another thread, noting that she would probably be evacuating as quickly as possible.  She checked back in several hours after bugging out, so presumably her place is OK.

I'm a firm believer in being prepared for just such an emergency, whether it is fire, natural disaster, flood, or societal unrest. To that end, I have compiled a variety of essential items into what I call a bugout bag. My "bag" is a plastic tool chest on wheels, kept in the back of the closet in the front hallway, which can easily be snagged on my way out the door.

I keep a printed list, frequently updated, of items that are not actually inside the bag that I need to go grab before bugging out. I've attached copies of this list to the front of the bag for quick reference, and each item on the list is prioritized in sequential order. This list includes any and all camping supplies and portable generator/fuel that I keep elsewhere in the house and garage, instructions to fill up my water supply and/or grab any bottled water and food in the kitchen, medications, money and valuables kept elsewhere, etc.

Here's some of what I keep in my bugout bag:

*BUGOUT BAG
*
batteries
battery charger, solar
blanket, emergency
camp stove with fuel
candles
cell phone (did you know that you can use any cell phone, even one that is not activated, to call 911?)
clothing kit (packed depending on the season)
copies of important papers (birth certificates, DD-214, insurance policies, prescriptions, name and phone number of insurance agent and main offices of insurance carrier, family and friends out of area, name of family attorney, copies of deeds, titles, ID cards, passport, and inventory list of Bugout Bag contents)
duplicates of credit cards
first aid kit
fishing kit
flashlights and other light sources
food (Mainstay "lifeboat bars", freeze-dried, MREs)
GPS
hard drive, external (contains all financial and personal records, updated monthly)
keys to everything
kitchen pack (utensils, matches, mess kit, etc.)
knives (Swiss Army, machete, others)
laptop (contains scans of all family photos)
med kit (all prescriptions, OTC meds, vitamins)
money (roll of quarters, some FRNs, gold and silver)
money belt
pen, pencil and paper
phone book
phone cards
portable toilet and supplies
radios
solar still kit
spares kit (bulbs, mantles, sewing, general repair)
sunblock
survival guide
tactical harness (holds canteens, weapon belt, and small items in pockets and hanging from belt. I built it from a surplus SWAT tactical harness. Good for keeping essentials at arm's length if you have to go into town)
tape
tarp
tent
toilet paper
tool kit (hammer, screws, nails, saws, screwdrivers, shovel, etc.)
topo maps annotated with GPS coordinates
towels
water (12 bricks retort packaged and water jugs (kept full and rotated))
water purifier (Katadyn Hiker) with spare filters
weapons with ammo
whistle

The whole bugout bag, water included, is light enough for me to lift it into my vehicle and/or just pull around.
*
CAR KIT*

The car kit is squeezed into one of those overengineered military surplus 12 x 10 x 8 cartridge boxes, mounted under one of the back seats.

bandana                              
blanket, space  
can opener           
candle             
coffee filters         
compass
cord, Nylon
cotton swabs   
cough drops
cup, stainless 
duct tape
fire starter kit (titanium bar)
first aid kit (in glove box)
fishing kit 
fishing line
fishing pole/reel    
flashlight
foil   
food (Mainstay “lifeboat bars”)
hand warmers
jumper cables (in trunk)
knife     
light sticks
lighter
lip balm
mask, dust
matches, waterproof
med kit
mirror
paper, pen and pencil
poncho
radio
saw, wire
sewing kit
sponge
spork
starter/battery charger, cigarette-lighter type (in glove box)
tent, tube
toilet paper
toothpicks
towelettes
trash bag
Trioxane tabs
water (6 bricks retort packaged)
water purification tabs
whistle
wire, snare
Ziploc bags

----------


## asgardshill

Here's a little gizmo I wouldn't mind getting my hands on, especially if I lived near the ocean.  

http://www.landfallnav.com/-sas35.html



PUR
Survivor 35
Manual Watermaker

Katadyn Item # 8013433
The PUR Survivor 35 water maker is widely used by U.S. and International military forces, voyagers, sea kayakers and other adventurers worldwide. The PUR Survivor 35 is capable of producing up to 1.2 gallons per hour by manually hand-pumping!
# Specifications: Water Production (+/- 15%): 1.2 gallons/hour (4.5 liters/hour)
# Weight: 7 lbs (3.2 kg)
# Dimensions: 5.5" x 22" x 3.5" (14 x 55.9 x 8.9 cm)
# Salt Rejection: 98.4% average (95.3% minimum)
# Average Pump Rate: 30 strokes/minute
# US Coast Guard Approval Number: 160.058/6/0 

They're pricey, but having one would mean that water would no longer be a survival problem.

----------


## amy31416

Good stuff Asgard. I'm just going to add one vital thing to your lists: toothpaste/toothbrush.

----------


## asgardshill

> Good stuff Asgard. I'm just going to add one vital thing to your lists: toothpaste/toothbrush.


Good catch - I should have listed the hygiene kit inside the clothing kit separately.  That's where TB/TP, soap, sanitary napkins, etc. are stored.  

Note: I think there's about 10 feet of duct tape wrapped around the toothbrush.  Makes it interesting to use, but saves space elsewhere.

----------


## asgardshill

My main medical kit is stored in a military surplus M3 combat medic bag, wrapped in a 2-gallon Ziploc to keep it dry.  The kit consists of a variety of sub-kits, each separately labeled and packaged.

*Medical Kit, Main*

_Bandages_
2nd Skin pad, 2 x 3 (3)	
abdominal pad, 5 x 9 (1)	
adhesive pad, 2 x 2 (1)
bandage, Ace (2)	
bandage, butterfly (8)	
bandage, Kling, roll, 2 x 10 yd (1)	
bandage, knuckle (2)	
bandage, liquid, NewSkin (1)
bandage, pressure, 113/4" (1)
bandage, triangular, 51 w/safety pin (1)	
bandaid, large (15)	
bandaid, small (10)
dressing, Tegaderm, 6 x 7 cm (2)
eye pad, gauze, 15/8  x 25/8 (2)	
gauze roll, 2 x 6 yd (2)	
gauze pad, 2 x 2 (6)
gauze pad, 3 x 3 (6)	
gauze pad, 4 x 4 (6)
moleskin, 2½ x 1½ (1)
Steri-strip, 3 x 75 mm (1)
Telfa pad, 2 x 3 (5)
Telfa pad, 2 x 4½ (1)

_Disinfectants_
alcohol, tube, .67ml (1) 
hydrogen peroxide, 1 oz
sanitizer, hand (alcohol) (1) 
soap (1 bar)
swab, benzoin tincture (2) 	
swab, iodine (1) 	
swab, prep, Povidone/iodine, 0.6 ml (3)
wipes, alcohol prep (9)                                        
wipes, antibacterial, large (pack)
wipes, antiseptic, small (9)
wipes, Povidone (2)

_Dental_
dental emergency filling kit (1)
dental pain kit (1)
OraJel (2 tubes)

_Meds_
Alka Seltzer (2)
Aleve (naproxen sodium)/aspirin/Dramamine/ES Tylenol/Orudis KT (ketoprofen) (12 ea)
Chloraseptic (4)
electrolyte tabs (12)
glucose tabs (2 tubes)
Imodium AD (12)
laxative (12)
prescription meds  (7 day supply, rotate as needed)
Rolaids (3 tubes)
Zantac (antacid) (2)

_Reference_
Emergency War Surgery
US Army Special Forces Medical Handbook

_Surgical_
alcohol prep pad (6)
applicator swab, cotton (2)
applicator swab, Betadine (4)
bandaids, large (1 pk)
bandaids, small (1 pk)
benzalkonium chloride prep pad (4)
germicidal wipes (1 pk)
hemostat, curved (1)
hemostat, lg straight (1)
hemostat, small straight (1)
ointment, triple antibiotic (1)
pick, dental (1)
pipette, plastic (1)
Povidone/iodine prep pad (6)
scalpel, #11 (1)
scissors, bandage (1)
shears, EMT (1)
sutures, 6-0 Nylon (6)
tweezers (1)

_Tools_
ammonia inhalant (3)
bag, waste (1)
blanket, emergency (1)
compress pack, cold (1)
CPR rescue breather (1)
ear plugs (1 pr)
flashlight (hanging on bag) (1)
gloves, exam (2 pr)
lace, boot (1)
lighter, butane (1)
marker, red (1)
mirror, dental, curved (1)
nail clippers (1)
notepad (1)
pen (1)
poncho, disposable (1)
ring cutter (1)
safety pins (6)
SAM splint (1)
Sawyer extractor (1)
snakebite kit (1)
splint, finger (1)
stethoscope (1)
swabs, cotton (10)
tape, athletic, cling roll (3)
thermometer/sheaths (1/10)
tick remover (1)
tongue depressors (6)

_Topical_
analgesic gel, Perform (4)
Benadryl, stick (1)
burn cream (3)	
BurnFree, gel (1)	
Carmex (1)
chapstick (1)
inhalant, ammonia (1)
lubricant, surgical, 3 g  (1)	
ointment, triple antibiotic (15)
petroleum jelly, tube (1)
saline, tube, 3 ml (2)
wipes, sting relief (2)

----------


## amy31416

Ya know what Asgard? I'm just going to keep this real simple and put a map to your place in my glove box. 

I'll bring a car fulla food, books (can't leave those behind!) and everything you need for s'mores.

----------


## asgardshill

> Ya know what Asgard? I'm just going to keep this real simple and put a map to your place in my glove box. 
> 
> I'll bring a car fulla food, books (can't leave those behind!) and everything you need for s'mores.


*snicker*

Better head to southern Utah then.  'cos that's where I'll be if the balloon REALLY goes up.  My campsite will be just past the third rock near that cow skull

----------


## amy31416

> *snicker*
> 
> Better head to southern Utah then.  'cos that's where I'll be if the balloon REALLY goes up.  My campsite will be just past the third rock near that cow skull


Excellent. I think I know the place-- isn't there a cactus nearby?

----------


## asgardshill

> Excellent. I think I know the place-- isn't there a cactus nearby?


Three of them, actually.  But they keep disappearing - Californicators keep digging them up for their yards, so I just embedded the cow skull in reinforced concrete as a landmark.

----------


## amy31416

> Three of them, actually.  But they keep disappearing - Californicators keep digging them up for their yards, so I just embedded the cow skull in reinforced concrete as a landmark.


Commie bastards.

Seriously though, thanks for the extensive lists. I copied and pasted and the only thing I think that is different about mine is that I have a list of chemicals and would like to put together a portable still of some sort as well (no, not just for moonshine )

----------


## asgardshill

> I copied and pasted and the only thing I think that is different about mine is that I have a list of chemicals and would like to put together a portable still of some sort as well (no, not just for moonshine )


Yeah, some of the "chemicals" in mine aren't listed, but I know they're there.  It helps to have a sister who's an RN and a cooperative doc willing to prescribe certain ... er, "stuff" I squirrel away in the med kit for emergency use, especially to a non-doctor.  (Hell, as much as he makes from my aches and pains, he'd BETTER be cooperative.)

I'm fascinated about the still though - if not for poteen, what would you need to distill out in the boonies?  (If its a sensitive topic, I understand).  Having a father who was in the business, the only recommendations I can make right offhand are:

- Don't use an old car or truck radiator as your condenser due to the lead in the old ones, and just about all radiators nowadays are plastic.

- Set up your still as high as possible with good sight lines so you can defend it.

- The more heavily-wooded and remote area you can find to locate your still, the better.  (For fuel and protection from prying eyes and noses).

----------


## amy31416

> Yeah, some of the "chemicals" in mine aren't listed, but I know they're there.  It helps to have a sister who's an RN and a cooperative doc willing to prescribe certain ... er, "stuff" I squirrel away in the med kit for emergency use, especially to a non-doctor.  (Hell, as much as he makes from my aches and pains, he'd BETTER be cooperative.)
> 
> I'm fascinated about the still though - if not for poteen, what would you need to distill out in the boonies?  (If its a sensitive topic, I understand).  Having a father who was in the business, the only recommendations I can make right offhand are:
> 
> - Don't use an old car or truck radiator as your condenser due to the lead in the old ones, and just about all radiators nowadays are plastic.
> 
> - Set up your still as high as possible with good sight lines so you can defend it.
> 
> - The more heavily-wooded and remote area you can find to locate your still, the better.  (For fuel and protection from prying eyes and noses).


Thanks for the advice. And no, it's not really about "sensitive" things, just a notion that having a system for purification and identification (you can tell what something is by it's boiling point) makes you more able to make or purify whatever liquids you need. Could be fuel (dangerous if you don't know what you're doing), water purification, alcohol purification--you can separate volatile from non-volatile. 

It's more of a thing that you'd want if problems were long-term. And because I'd like it and it'd give me something to play with.

----------


## Cowlesy

Gunny --- I think ABC News was reading your thread!

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/sto...5045549&page=1




> Experts say that extreme changes in climate, combined with dwindling resources, famine, war and disease have the potential to create a *post-apocalyptic world* in less than a hundred years.

----------


## Cowlesy

//

----------


## sfws09

something i was thinking about lastnite...

i have a glock 23. i am wanting to get a conversion kit so i can shoot .22s instead of the .40s all the time. $$$. i think it would be a good idea to get a conversion kit for every cal below my 40 in prep for the paw. that way, any pistol ammo i 'find', i can use! AND with a gun i am familure with!

thoughts?

----------


## Bprimbs

Would those conversions kits really work? 

It seems like it could be more trouble than it is worth.

----------


## Dr.3D

> something i was thinking about lastnite...
> 
> i have a glock 23. i am wanting to get a conversion kit so i can shoot .22s instead of the .40s all the time. $$$. i think it would be a good idea to get a conversion kit for every cal below my 40 in prep for the paw. that way, any pistol ammo i 'find', i can use! AND with a gun i am familure with!
> 
> thoughts?


I just got an Advantage Arms 22 lr conversion kit for my Glock 37.  It works very well and allows me to practice with the same sights and grip I usually use.  I like it very much.  You will just want to follow up your practice with say 50 rounds of your usual ammunition so you again get used to the kick.

----------


## Cowlesy

Nothing as fun as a Glock --- but my Badlands 4500 internal-frame pack just came in on the highly unlikely chance it's time to scoot out of NYC in a big hurry 

it's also in Advantage MAX1 camo so I can take it out west when I go elk hunting!

----------


## silus

You're going to need a network of likeminded people you can rely upon.  Survival without the ability to influence is is just a wasted existence.  Next up, brush up on your movies...T2, V, V: The Final Battle,  Red Dawn...throw in John Adams and other historic American films.  If anything to adopt a mindset of resistance and inspiration.

This must sound odd.

----------


## New York For Paul

Better have plenty of gas masks and other bio hazard gear.

If the infrastructure crumbles, I wouldn't want to be near any medical labs.

*CDC seals bioterror bugs  with duct tape*

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...w&pageId=67832

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has revealed a unique, high-tech use of its own  sealing off potentially fatal bioterror bacteria.

At its $214 million Emerging Infectious Diseases Laboratory in Atlanta, Ga., CDC scientists have been duct taping a lab door in an attempt to contain the airborne Q fever, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported.

The silver adhesive was taped around a lab containment door one year ago following a *ventilation malfunction in which potentially contaminated air streamed backward through a duct and into a "clean" hallway*. Nine workers were blood tested in May 2007 for exposure to Q fever bacteria following the leak.

Ebright told the AJC that the CDC's use of duct tape to contain bioterror bacteria "*raises very serious concerns about management*. And those concerns are particularly important when one bears in mind this facility will ultimately be handling a full range of lethal pathogens  up to and including smallpox."

----------


## pcosmar

^^ I live far from such.
but it should be a concern to anyone in the vicinity of these facilities.

----------


## silus

Get some good bug spray too.

----------


## MsDoodahs

Guys, I started to MOVE this thread over to Freedom Living, but it has so much Bearing Arms stuff that I have tried to make a "copy" of it for here.

The original should still be visible in Bearing Arms, with just this copy here.

<crossing fingers this worked...first time I've tried to "copy" a thread.>  

MsD

----------


## Roxi

> Another plus for domestic rabbits is the fact they are the only red meat with 0 chloresterol (or however it is spelled).  LOL
> 
> No matter what you eat the human body DOES need protein to be able to do hard work.  And 'survival' is hard work!
> 
> Main thing is that the folks that prepare NOW can do it in some sort of comfort we are used to.  The folks that do not will not fare that well, if they survive at all.



almost... ostrich meat is also a red meat and has less than 1% fat, and 0 cholesterol  oh but it is soooo bland it almost tastes like nothing... you really have to be a good cook to make it taste good

----------


## asgardshill

> almost... ostrich meat is also a red meat and has less than 1% fat, and 0 cholesterol  oh but it is soooo bland it almost tastes like nothing... you really have to be a good cook to make it taste good


Give me a fast baster and some Tony Chachere's, for I intend to go in harm's way ...

I've never tasted ostrich although I've had just about every other kind of meat on the planet.  Some is even sold by the corner butcher ...

----------


## christagious

Hey Gunny, is this thread finished or do you have more you're planning on adding?

----------


## tmosley

Wow, this is an awesome thread.  I can't believe I never saw it before.

I'll throw in my two cents.  For water purification, you can simply use a bit of charcoal from the fire and a rag.  Crumble the charcoal into the rag and run your water through it a few times and it will be just as good as the most expensive bottled water.

This also works for vodka and moonshine (removes any methanol that might have creeped in, as well as most other contaminants).  6 runs through charcoal will make the cheapest vodka taste like the $250/bottle stuff.

----------


## rancher89

I'm sure he plans on adding to it, things are a little busy for some of us in NC.  You know, all that trying to find like minded folks to come to the precinct/county/state conventions stuff.  (we were so close to having a quorum at the state convention, soooo close---in fact we did for a while on Friday----45 min debate on getting rid of the 14th amendment...)

Gunny is going to go for his district chair and possibly further if all goes well.  That and holding down a job probably has him jumping.

I know I'll have a little more time after the election, but not that much since that's when the CFL will be kicking off in high gear.  Soooo, I'd say, from a fellow NC perspective, he'll probably add, but not this week or next.

I would like to see more of his PAW input too.

----------


## Dr.3D

When things are rough, it is wise to know how to make snares.  If you learn how to make them now and have the wire and ability, it can save your life in a tough situation.

----------


## rwbris18

Please check out my survival site and give me some feeback.

http://briscoefamily.com/emergency/survival.php

----------


## rwbris18

> ROFL - not quite!  Those are actually amazingly simple to make.  I didn't have any sort of plan, I made the design up myself, but that's more of a testament to how ridiculously simple they are to make than any sort of design prowess on my part.
> 
> If you have ever seen an M-80, it's a cylinder shaped fire cracker with a loose fuze sticking out of the side.  A model rocket igniter, is little more than a match head with 2 wires sticking out of it.  Pull the fuze, insert the igniter, tape down, and any 9v DC current will result in an instantaneous M-80 BANG!
> 
> 
> 
> A note if you plan on actually DOING this -- do not connect the battery until everything is in place -- AFTER the whole thing is taped up, AFTER the fishing line is attached, AFTER both ends are secured to trees, and AFTER the piece of cardboard is firmly breaking the circuit.
> 
> It helps to actually use a 9 volt battery snap on connector which you can get real cheap and re-use.  You do NOT want the M-80 going off while building this thing, and CERTAINLY not while you are holding it.  M-80's are a bit powerful, and can damage your hand!
> ...


I suggest you get a little wax and seal the M80 to be waterproof.

I'm not sure what you did as kids... I built rockets, cannons, and thought I was in heaven if I could get to Wyoming to buy fireworks... but let's suffice it to say the neighbor's dog was afraid of me.

----------


## Deborah K

Get a HAM radio folks.  You may end up needing it.  Most communities have a HAM radio club.  Get to know them, they are survivalists.  Get to know your neighbors and talk about how to work together if there's a catastrophy.

----------


## rwbris18

> I'd choose a 22 for hunting small game anyday, numerous reasons, mostly stated already, but it will be lighter for cross country scrambling.....


You might not want to spend all day hunting.

You could set several traps then check them twice a day.

The time that you are not hunting could be used for other purposes.

One more thing: I like all the checklist but... you also need DOG FOOD for your sentry.

----------


## rwbris18

> Noise maker:
> 
> 1. Balloon 
> 2. Rocket igniters
> 3. Oxygen/acetylene rig
> 4. Trip wire, battery, and relay
> 
> Fill the balloon with 1/3 Acetylene and 2/3 oxygen. Tape rocket igniter to Balloon, then set trip wire, relay and battery.
> 
> ...


Taped up a dry cleaning bag with scotch tape.
Filled it with hydrogen from a car storage battery acid eating something.
Soaked some string in potasium perclorate.
Tied the bag off with the string... then lit the string and let the bag float away.

----------


## Crowish

> Get a HAM radio folks.  You may end up needing it.  Most communities have a HAM radio club.  Get to know them, they are survivalists.  Get to know your neighbors and talk about how to work together if there's a catastrophy.


I'm a ham radio operator too. At least until they decide to exercise that "character clause" after people start getting arrested for protesting the gov't hahaha.

----------


## rwbris18

Been Thinking...  oooooh that's dangerous 

PARTY POPPERS... 
Put the party popper between a couple of branches and string the trip wire.


So there you have it. The Poor Man's Perimeter Security System.

----------


## Dr.3D

> Been Thinking...  oooooh that's dangerous 
> 
> PARTY POPPERS... 
> Put the party popper between a couple of branches and string the trip wire.
> 
> 
> So there you have it. The Poor Man's Perimeter Security System.


Better coat the entire thing with wax or the first bit of rain or dew and it won't work anymore.

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

since this thread was recently mentioned in another thread and it's on p4 now...

BLIMP! - so ppl will find it...

-t

----------


## Elwar

Ran across this thread from that other thread...thanks for the heads up.

I live on the gulf of Mexico so I've been looking at how to get water from saltwater.

Even without a PAW event I was looking at how I could eliminate my water bill altogether combining rain water and saltwater.

I found a distiller that can be connected to a water line (or a pump from the gulf).
http://www.webeatprices.com/product_...fa0bfeeb247687
$600 - distills 8 gallons of water a day which would be plenty for my wife and I to drink and cook with. Plus the pure water that comes out of it would be good for a daily basis anyhow considering it gets rid of all chemicals (99.99%) from the water.

Along with this 500+ gallon stainless steel tank for $1,300.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Water-Storage-Ta...QQcmdZViewItem

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned solar panels or wind power. I'd like to get a battery bank set up with some solar panels on the roof to run the basics. I'll probably get a generator first since it's cheaper for short term emergencies but I just don't see gas being all that readily available if things go really bad.

Being on the gulf my main source of food would obviously be fish. I think our whole community would be fine as far as that goes with the amount of fishing that goes on here.

I've started my list here: http://www.thethingsiwant.com/elwar123/list/wishlist
The site allows you to click on a button in your browser when you find something online that you want. Pretty handy for keeping your list in one place.

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

re: desalination

http://upclose.unimelb.edu.au/episode/124
The 2 canal and large plastic sheet sounded interesting and easy to do...

http://seasteading.org/seastead.org/...book_beta.html  <==desalination section is about half way through the book, do a find for "Solar Distillation".

http://www.epsea.org/stills.html <== cross section drawing and plans available.
-t

----------


## ihsv

Bump for good info

----------


## gabed99

A Leatherman knife is a good multi-functional tool to have, it's like a swiss army knife on steriods.

----------


## priest_of_syrinx

I'm definitely keeping this thread in the back of my mind. The DOW going below 7K is scary; I wouldn't have guessed it would go down that fast. Anything seems possible now.

It really makes me depressed, though, that I have to worry about stuff like this when the last two or three generations (not depression or WWII generation) have gotten an environment where their safety is almost guaranteed and they can pursue their dreams so easily. I've wanted so bad to be a musician, but that seems impossible if I'm bunkered up for a long time with the threat of nuclear war, thieves, fascism...

----------


## zach

you think I'd be able to pull some of this off with a summer job? :/

----------


## GunnyFreedom

Find a friend with a CostCo, Sam's Club, or BJ's membership.  25lb of rice goes for under $20.  Lean towards long grain brown rice as it has more nutrition.  Pack it up 2 cups in a vacuum seal bag or vacuum seal ziplock with prep instructions on the bag; fill bags into 5 gal bucket and seal.  For something like $50 to $80 dollars, you could store away as much as 2-3 months of survival rice.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

an yes, there is still a lot I want to add to this thread...

----------


## Cowlesy

This was definitely a good thread from long ago.

----------


## AME3

I do not believe that the iodine idea is a good one. Two teaspoons of iodine would do you great harm.
A 2% solution diluted, and painted on the abdomen and forearms in lieu of the oral tablets is what I believe is recommended by the DOD. NEVER INGEST PURE IODINE. There is a reason for the skull and crossbones on the bottle.
No offense intended.

----------


## amy31416

I agree with AME3 about iodine, but also recognize the problems with using bleach to purify water. Keep in mind that anything that will kill bacteria/viruses, will probably also kill your own cells/beneficial bacteria in your gut. However, it seems to me that it's better to drink water that's treated with iodine/bleach rather than drink pond water that has diptheria or other bacterial diseases.

You just have to use (not so) common sense. For emergencies, learn how to make natural water filters--a man-made version of those that filter the water for wells.

----------


## Kotin

> I agree with AME3 about iodine, but also recognize the problems with using bleach to purify water. Keep in mind that anything that will kill bacteria/viruses, will probably also kill your own cells/beneficial bacteria in your gut. However, it seems to me that it's better to drink water that's treated with iodine/bleach rather than drink pond water that has diptheria or other bacterial diseases.
> 
> You just have to use (not so) common sense. For emergencies, learn how to make natural water filters--a man-made version of those that filter the water for wells.


+1


the ability to adapt will literally save your life.

----------


## amy31416

> +1
> 
> 
> the ability to adapt will literally save your life.


Absolutely right.

Here's one of my favorite video series on this topic:

YouTube - SAR: How to Treat & Store Water for Emergencies pt1

He's a really nice guy too.

----------


## AME3

I was actually referring to the oral admin of iodine (suggested by Gunny Freedom) for the prevention of thyroid damage following a radiological exposure incident.

In regards to the disinfection of water, the chlorine as I understand it, is safe in the appropriate dosages, as are iodine drops. The iodine kills viruses and bacterium very well as does bleach. The iodine leaves a funky aftertaste, and the chlorine especially if airrated (shaken, stirred or left to sit for awhile) dissipitaes fairly rapidly.
Of course neither of these treatments will do anything to remove poisonous substances.
Personally I prefer the distilled approach or in lieu of, the filters which remove viral, bacterial, and chemical substances.

----------


## AME3

In regards to the many suggestions regarding medical care, I would encourage anyone who is interested in being prepeared to remember dental emergencies. An infected tooth and or gum, is not only painful, but it can become dangerous. The book "Where there are no dentists" is, in my humble opinion, a must have. I also have several mountaineering medical manuals as well as an SAS manual in my library.

Someone, I forgot who,  made a statement in regards to the inappropriateness of  Intravenous supplies. Said they were used to provide a temporary stabilization for surgical intervention. They are also useful for stabilizing a person who has suffered blood or fluid loss from such things as dehydration (vommiting and diarhea) or trauma (burns or bleeding). I believe that IV therapy has a place in a PAW.

No offense intended to any one in these regards. This is my simply my personal opinion.
Also, please pardon my spelling and grammer.

----------


## amy31416

> I was actually referring to the oral admin of iodine (suggested by Gunny Freedom) for the prevention of thyroid damage following a radiological exposure incident.
> 
> In regards to the disinfection of water, the chlorine as I understand it, is safe in the appropriate dosages, as are iodine drops. The iodine kills viruses and bacterium very well as does bleach. The iodine leaves a funky aftertaste, and the chlorine especially if airrated (shaken, stirred or left to sit for awhile) dissipitaes fairly rapidly.
> Of course neither of these treatments will do anything to remove poisonous substances.
> Personally I prefer the distilled approach or in lieu of, the filters which remove viral, bacterial, and chemical substances.


I love distillation, I just also know what an energy-intensive process it is. I've set up a 'still before (only for water, of course) and for an efficient one, you have to have a heat source and a cooling source, along with specific equipment. Not all that easy to come by when things are chaotic.

That's not to say that I can't envision rigging a 'still out of various things, but it's not as easy as you might imagine.

If you didn't watch it, I do encourage that video series, he has some pretty cool common-sense ideas.

----------


## amy31416

> In regards to the many suggestions regarding medical care, I would encourage anyone who is interested in being prepeared to remember dental emergencies. An infected tooth and or gum, is not only painful, but it can become dangerous. The book "Where there are no dentists" is, in my humble opinion, a must have. I also have several mountaineering medical manuals as well as an SAS manual in my library.
> 
> Someone, I forgot who,  made a statement in regards to the inappropriateness of  Intravenous supplies. Said they were used to provide a temporary stabilization for surgical intervention. They are also useful for stabilizing a person who has suffered blood or fluid loss from such things as dehydration (vommiting and diarhea) or trauma (burns or bleeding). I believe that IV therapy has a place in a PAW.
> 
> No offense intended to any one in these regards. This is my simply my personal opinion.
> Also, please pardon my spelling and grammer.


Don't sweat it about offending people, you haven't been at all disrespectful or obnoxious. Most people here like more than one opinion.

However, I wouldn't have the first clue how to do IV therapy and would likely end up killing a person attempting it. I also don't know where I'd get absolutely sterile fluids appropriate for it (well, unless I had a sort of clean room with a distillation apparatus, and access to sterile salts, blood and equipment.

So, give us a hypothetical scenario where it's appropriate and how you'd do it. I'm curious.

----------


## AME3

Personally, I am in total agreement with the previous entries stating that a clean well with a hand pump is the best and prefered source of potable water, as well as the vast majority of opinions.

The contributors in this thread, thus far, seem to be very intelligent and concerned folks which make a lot of sense to me. 
I have learned a lot of interesting and useful things, and am very appreciative.

Although I am not aquainted with the production of a homemade IV solution, it was mentioned by a couple of these folks that it was possible. I am confident that their claims are legit, that it can be done, probably fairly easily and safely. Distilled water and a little salt, boiling, and packaging in an old IV bag, I would guess.

I would never advocate the administration of any intravenous substance by anyone who is not trained, skilled and equiped with the proper equipment and supplies. 
IV fluids as well as the other necessary apparatus can be purchased and stocked in an advanced med kit, and in my opinion, that would be a very practical thing.

Does this satisfy your curiosity?

----------


## AME3

Personally, I am in total agreement with the previous entries stating that a clean well with a hand pump is the best and prefered source of potable water, as well as the vast majority of opinions.

The contributors in this thread, thus far, seem to be very intelligent and concerned folks which make a lot of sense to me. 
I have learned a lot of interesting and useful things, and am very appreciative.

Although I am not aquainted with the production of a homemade IV solution, it was mentioned by a couple of these folks that it was possible. I am confident that their claims are legit, that it can be done, probably fairly easily and safely. Distilled water and a little salt, boiling, and packaging in an old IV bag, I would guess.

I would never advocate the administration of any intravenous substance by anyone who is not trained, skilled and equiped with the proper equipment and supplies. 
IV fluids as well as the other necessary apparatus can be purchased and stocked in an advanced med kit, and in my opinion, that would be a very practical thing.

Does this satisfy your curiosity?

----------


## AME3

Also, I would not advocate the use of any IV fluid in the boonies or whatever that we have been discussing, unless it was necessary to save someones life. Sepsis (high mortality rate) is a very real danger, even in a clinical setting.

----------


## amy31416

> Also, I would not advocate the use of any IV fluid in the boonies or whatever that we have been discussing, unless it was necessary to save someones life. Sepsis (high mortality rate) is a very real danger, even in a clinical setting.


Sepsis was precisely my concern.

I'm sure that there's some cases where the concern about sepsis outweighs the risks, as in life and death situations. But I'd be hard-pressed to contemplate how an untrained, unequipped person would use that in an emergency situation.

Which is why I asked. I'd like to learn more. But having worked in clean rooms and being trained in aseptic technique similar to how surgeons are, I just can't get my mind around IV fluids being administered without significant preparation.

----------


## Dr.3D

A simple solar still can be made with a clear plastic trash bag and a pot of water from any source.

Inflate the plastic bag and place the pot of water inside the bag, close the bag and set it in the sun.  At the end of the day, there will be a puddle of water in the bag, just open the bag and remove the pot, you can then drain the water from the bag into a clean container.

If more water is needed that one still can provide, more of these still can be made.  You can have an array of them as needed.

----------


## AME3

I agree with you. The thoughts of some untrained person administering an IV is scary. Air embolism, tissue infiltration, not to mention the introduction of some pathogen into the circulation is possible for sure.
In regards to a trained professional using a makeshift IV setup (e.g. an old IV bag which has been sterilized in boiling water and filled with a sterile homemade solution like distilled water to which a pinch of salt has been added, and the solution re-boiled and sealed in the bag and cooled) would, in my op, be an acceptable risk if rehydration wasn't possible orally.

The body deals with pathogens entering the circulation all the time through cuts and scrapes etc. without any ill effects.  It is not quite as critical as say, the assemblage of a comp chip in a clean room. 

This approach is only justified if it is a life threatening situation and as I said, the patient is unconsciouss and can't drink fluids for example.

----------


## AME3

Say Gunny, I like your rice storage idea. I wonder how long rice can be stored away like that?
I would suggest that dry beans, and flour, sugar, corn meal, etc. could be stored the same way. What do you think?

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Say Gunny, I like your rice storage idea. I wonder how long rice can be stored away like that?
> I would suggest that dry beans, and flour, sugar, corn meal, etc. could be stored the same way. What do you think?


Dried goods decompose with exposure to oxygen, period.  With white rice especially, if you vacuum pack rice with an oxygen eating dessicant, it should literally store for however long it holds vacuum.  That means 40 years from now someone stumbles on a vacuum packed oxygen-consumed bag of white rice and it should still be quite good.

I think the beans may have some timeframe, but I can only imagine it is enormous.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> A simple solar still can be made with a clear plastic trash bag and a pot of water from any source.
> 
> Inflate the plastic bag and place the pot of water inside the bag, close the bag and set it in the sun.  At the end of the day, there will be a puddle of water in the bag, just open the bag and remove the pot, you can then drain the water from the bag into a clean container.
> 
> If more water is needed that one still can provide, more of these still can be made.  You can have an array of them as needed.


doesn't have to be clear.  Actually black works better.  Just harder to aim the stone into the cup.  3mil 45gal contractor bags are beyond perfect.  My solar still has a 2 gallon basin in a big hole covered in black plastic with a stone in the middle to make the water drip..  sucks water right out of the dirt.  I like your idea for recycling tho.  clean the outside of the pot and the water should be sterile.  I must say I'd rather inflate with a pump of some sort.....

----------


## Dr.3D

> doesn't have to be clear.  Actually black works better.  Just harder to aim the stone into the cup.  3mil 45gal contractor bags are beyond perfect.  My solar still has a 2 gallon basin in a big hole covered in black plastic with a stone in the middle to make the water drip..  sucks water right out of the dirt.  I like your idea for recycling tho.  clean the outside of the pot and the water should be sterile.  I must say I'd rather inflate with a pump of some sort.....


I've built the funnel type at the beach and had great luck with those.

This bag idea is one I came up with later on where you can put just about anything in the pot that has moisture in it and still get water in the bottom of the bag.    You can even tie the bag over the leaves of a tree branch and get water from it.

----------


## dave68

Great thread! I have a cabin I now power with a Honda 2000 generator. I am only running lights, TV, and the occasional power tool. I get about 16 hours out of a gallon of gas. I would like to set up a battery bank system with a power inverter. The generator would charge the Marine deep cell batteries, and I would use them instead of using the generator all the time.
  Would possibly add a solar panel, or two down the line. Anybody have any experience with this? I just wonder how long the batteries would last using 400 watts of power? Looked at some Diehard Marine 1050 CCA batteries today. Thanks for any insight.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> I do not believe that the iodine idea is a good one. Two teaspoons of iodine would do you great harm.
> A 2% solution diluted, and painted on the abdomen and forearms in lieu of the oral tablets is what I believe is recommended by the DOD. NEVER INGEST PURE IODINE. There is a reason for the skull and crossbones on the bottle.
> No offense intended.


I will have to do some more research on the matter; but once you have been exposed to radiation, painting the outside with iodine will do nothing.  It's actually the medical treatment for preserving the thyroid following massive radiological exposure.

OK I have the straight scoop, they were talking about a potassium iodite salt solution in the following article:

http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/faqs/ki.html

And while 2 teaspoons is probably too much, what happens is that under intense radiation exposure your thyroid is the first thing to go, and in a survival situation without a thyroid, you die.

What kills your thyroid is the radiological interaction with your body producing radioactive iodides that are sucked into your thyroid and kill it.  To counteract that, if you can do it immediately following a traumatic exposure, a high dose of iodine will cause the non-radioactive iodine to be absorbed FIRST thus not allowing the radioactive iodine to attack the thyroid.

Honestly, it is toxic, but i do not know the lethal dose.  If it comes down to being a nuclear detonation I would rather take my tsp of iodine , get really sick for 3 days and live, than to be iodine free - but trying to survive in the PAW without a thyroid.

----------


## pcosmar

Something like these.
I remember we carried them in decontamination kits.

http://www.nukepills.com/potassium-iodide.htm

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

> I will have to do some more research on the matter; but once you have been exposed to radiation, painting the outside with iodine will do nothing.  It's actually the medical treatment for preserving the thyroid following massive radiological exposure.
> 
> OK I have the straight scoop, they were talking about a potassium iodite salt solution in the following article:
> 
> http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/faqs/ki.html
> 
> And while 2 teaspoons is probably too much, what happens is that under intense radiation exposure your thyroid is the first thing to go, and in a survival situation without a thyroid, you die.
> 
> What kills your thyroid is the radiological interaction with your body producing radioactive iodides that are sucked into your thyroid and kill it.  To counteract that, if you can do it immediately following a traumatic exposure, a high dose of iodine will cause the non-radioactive iodine to be absorbed FIRST thus not allowing the radioactive iodine to attack the thyroid.
> ...


Authoritative answer....

http://www.oism.org/nwss/s73p924.htm#Message2476

-t

----------


## Dr.3D

I just keep a bottle of potassium iodide tablets in my drawer for such an emergency.
I also have one of these in my drawer:

http://www.nukalert.com/
  so I will know how to get to a safe location out of the fallout.

----------


## AME3

The solution as well as the tablets are not the same compounds as tincture of iodine.
The tincture is suitable for the disinfection of soft tissue injuries and the purification of water.
Absorption transdermally of the tincture (2% solution) 8ml of which can be smeared on the forearms or the abdomen (adult) is the way to go in lieu of the tablets .
Never....drink it.

http://nukealert.net/plan_b.htm

----------


## AME3

http://www.oism.org/nwss/s73p924.htm

----------


## AME3

By the way Gunny, you are gonna have to take that dose of iodine each day...and it's probably gonna kill you by shutting down your kidneys...a most miserable death, I can assure you.
Stock up on some tablets and start the dose regimen before you are exposed if at all possible.
I bought some awhile back and put them in my med kit in case there is an accident at the nuke plant sixty miles away from here in either direction (Raleigh or Charlotte), or we have a dirty bomb attack or worse...
The worst case scenario, and I think I would rather be killed instantly by the blast...Radiation sickness (and there isn't a pill to protect you from that you know) is one of the worst ways for a man to die.
I have seen many folks die during my lifetime, and most of them died hard, and some died easy. I choose easy myself.

----------


## Dr.3D

Here is where I bought my KIO3.   It was the best price I could find on the net.
http://www.campingsurvival.com/potiodpilkio.html

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Authoritative answer....
> 
> http://www.oism.org/nwss/s73p924.htm#Message2476
> 
> -t





> http://www.oism.org/nwss/s73p924.htm


Thanks for the clarification!  that certainly makes sense.  too bad I can't get the tablets to store away for a rainy day unless business really picks up...

----------


## Dr.3D

> Thanks for the clarification!  that certainly makes sense.  too bad I can't get the tablets to store away for a rainy day unless business really picks up...


That link I posted has a 60 day supply of KIO3 tablets for $11/person. + S&H
And what is really good is when they expire, all you need to do is send the manufacturer a picture of the bottle and they will replace it for $5.

----------


## AME3

That is the best price for the tabs I have seen as well. Thanks Dr for the camping survival link. Seems like the prices are fair and the selection is unique compared to others I have visited. I have never seen any canned butter before, only powdered.

The iodine issue is certainly confusing, hopefully none of us will ever need any. I remember from my military training..."time distance and shielding" as the key to survival in a nuclear emergency. A below ground shelter with a proper overhead shield, air filters, etc. I have the old civil defense stuff (pamplets on shelters, a geiger counter set, etc.) from years ago. Since I have aquirred gas masks and spare filters. Not set up for chemical or bio though.

Having somewhat perused this site, I am impressed by the knowledge of many of its contributors. You Gunny and Dr. 3D have gained much of my respect and admiration. You two (as well as some others), appear to be on top of your game. Thanks, for all of your thoughts and considerations, I have learned quite a bit.
For example, I have always appreciated the need for potable water, but it was you guys who made me realize that I hadn't considered how much water would be needed in a lengthy survival scenario. A good water filter capable of filtering bios, virals and chemical pollutants with a spare filter was pretty much what I was relying on. Now, I intend to persue a hand pump well. I am going to have to look at a diy method since the city I live in dosn't permit it.

----------


## AME3

Update on water well. It sure pays, sometimes, to check out things for yourself rather than relying on "what you have heard" as being the truth, regardless of how much sense it seems to make.
I called a well driller and asked him if he could give me an idea on how deep the water table was in my area. I had looked it up on a geo survey map and from what I could tell, it might be twenty to thirty feet or so below my property. He guessed it at being more around 100-200 ft. I then asked him if there was a statute in regards to having a well installed in the city. He said no, and added, if you have the space, it is permitted. He said he had put several in in my area for the irrigation of gardens etc. A six inch well runs eleven dollars a foot, and there is no guarantee of water. I guess it's hit or miss?
I have read that these well drillers have to drill at least a hundred feet just to make it worthwhile for them, even though you may get good water at a much shallower depth. If good water can be had at 20-30 feet, then I could possibly install my own well, at least according to several sites I have perused on the subject. Does anybody have any experience in these regards?

----------


## pcosmar

> Update on water well. It sure pays sometimes to check out things for yourself rather than relying on "what you have heard" as being the truth, regardless on how much sense it seems to make.
> I called a well driller and asked him if he could give an idea on how deep the water table was in my area. I had looked it up and from what I could tell, it might be twenty to thirty feet or so. He guessed more like 100-200 ft. I then asked him if there was a statute in regards to having a well installed in the city. He said no, and added, if you have the space, it is permitted. He said he has put several in for the irrigation of gardens etc. A six inch well runs eleven dollars a foot, and there is no guarantee of water. I guess it's hit or miss?
> I have read that these well drillers have to drill at least a hundred feet just to make it worthwhile for them, even though you could get good water at a much shallower depth. If the water can be had at 20-30 feet, then I could possibly install my own well, at least according to several sites I have perused on the subject. Does anybody have any experience in these regards?


*OK this is going to sound strange*
When I was growing up, our well ran out, we had to get a new well dug.
My folks hired a "Water Witch" a dowser. He found the water and the driller punched one hole.
We had great water from then on.
Research it yourself. Or take your chances.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> *OK this is going to sound strange*
> When I was growing up, our well ran out, we had to get a new well dug.
> My folks hired a "Water Witch" a dowser. He found the water and the driller punched one hole.
> We had great water from then on.
> Research it yourself. Or take your chances.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing


LOL we did the dowsing ourselves, and got 30gal/min at 60'  

duno if dowsing actually does anything, but my dad did it 22 years ago, and we still get 25gal/min from a 60' well.  So I'm not gonnna complain.

I will say that the deeper your well, the cleaner your water....

----------


## AME3

Forget the well. I'm going after some property elsewhere.  An old navy friend has some land in the mountains near the Blue Ridge which he has offered me for a great price. There is a river that has never gone dry running through it. The parcel consists of six acres has a large level area which is ideal for an inground insulated concrete home, and my buddy owns a company that specializes in building concrete homes. The river is perfectly suited for a hydrogenerator set up, which is how he gets his power, he says he sells the excess to the utility company and averages two hundred a month. There is also a huge garden space with a small orchard and vineyard. His property lies on all sides of this parcel and he has sixty acres. His home is a 2400 square foot inground with a geodesic dome structure above it. He has a bass pond which is about seven acres. The river has mountain trout and he has a barn, a big tractor with a backhoe, front end loader and four snowmobiles. The entire place is fenced and has a private road with an electric gate. He is an avid shooter and has a gun room which rivals most gun shops I have seen. He has a full metal / machine shop and foundry as well.
He said he was looking into getting a small bell helicopter as he just got his rotary liscense, something we had both planned on getting when we got out of the Navy some years ago.
I think I will buy it and build a modest inground and set it up to be self sufficient. I plan on having it as a second home for R&R and a place to go if things get bad. He told me that he can heat his home with a few candles and cool it with a couple trays of ice cubes, LOL, it is so efficient. Hell with the well.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

While I, if I do *not* get elected to NC State House, will be trying to gather up 10 people to go in together on some 100 acres around Montana/Wyoming, to then run for office up there where people have a little more appreciation for freedom and the Constitution.

----------


## hamilton1049

> While I, if I do *not* get elected to NC State House, will be trying to gather up 10 people to go in together on some 100 acres around Montana/Wyoming, to then run for office up there where people have a little more appreciation for freedom and the Constitution.


Oh God pleeeeze put me on that list!!!

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Oh God pleeeeze put me on that list!!!


OUTSTANDING!!!  heh...

If it does go down that road, then I am quite sure everybody on RPF's will know -- and I will be setting up a little website for coordination of the project.  I'll probably use the FSP-Wyoming and FSP-NH as a kind of model for setting up the site, with additional details on land, locations, acreages prices etc.

If I do end up going down that road (a possibility I consider 50/50 at this point, we'll see if I win State House) then I'll want to get the whole community that wishes to participate in on the action -- helping pick the location, the land the price etc.  I can assure you I don't want to just be 'the guy' who does everything and expects others to just toe the line -- that's not my style.

And with modern technology, that will be easier done than said.  Posting pictures of land live, twittering negotiations live, discussing business and job opportunities live on twitter and wordpress etc.

So we'll see come November 2010 what happens.  If the locals insist on keeping their progressive despite the Constitutional conflict involved, then I will be setting up a "GaltGulch" Ning (or some such name) to coordinate the project.

And thanks!

----------


## Lord Xar

So what is the verdict on the radiation pills? Gunny and AME3 seemed to post diff. ways to avoid thyroid issues.

Which is it? Rubbing on body, or ingesting?

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> So what is the verdict on the radiation pills? Gunny and AME3 seemed to post diff. ways to avoid thyroid issues.
> 
> Which is it? Rubbing on body, or ingesting?


The proper way to protect against radiation poisoning destroying your thyroid is a relatively expensive pill made of Potassium Iodate.

http://www.campingsurvival.com/potiodpilkio.html

It's just possible that with the right meter you can use iodine to provide the same protection, but it is likely to make you extremely sick (which pretty much destroys your survival chances by preventing you from doing other equally necessary things), where the potassium iodate pills sold at the above link will not make you sick at all.

Rubbing iodine on the outside of the body does nothing but pigment your skin temporarily.

----------


## Dr.3D

> The proper way to protect against radiation poisoning destroying your thyroid is a relatively expensive pill made of Potassium Iodate.
> 
> http://www.campingsurvival.com/potiodpilkio.html
> 
> It's just possible that with the right meter you can use iodine to provide the same protection, but it is likely to make you extremely sick (which pretty much destroys your survival chances by preventing you from doing other equally necessary things), where the potassium iodate pills sold at the above link will not make you sick at all.
> 
> Rubbing iodine on the outside of the body does nothing but pigment your skin temporarily.


Might be a good idea to edit your post #8 to reflect the change.
Wouldn't want anybody to accidentally poison themselves.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Might be a good idea to edit your post #8 to reflect the change.
> Wouldn't want anybody to accidentally poison themselves.


Done!  and thanks!

----------


## AME3

Wondered how long it would be before you corrected that Gunny.... You seem somewhat stubborn and persistent to say the least, in regards to your opinions, at least in this case. Personally I am somewhat quicker to admit when I am wrong about something, especially if it involves the health and well being of someone else. It was my concern for the health and well being of those who were reading your post concerning the use of iodine that prompted me to offer a correction in the first place. Were it not such a critical issue, I would have kept my mouth shut.

In regards to your claim that the tabs are expensive...I disagree and offer the following proof that they are not expensive :   http://www.approvedgasmasks.com/potassium-iodide.htm

I also take issue with your claim that the painting of the iodine solution on the skin as being ineffective except for the discoloration of the skin, and submit the following links:  

http://www.ki4u.com/guide.htm
or : http://www.ibiblio.org/rcip/nuclear.html#homeremedy

----------


## AME3

In regards to Lord Xars question, I would suggest following the guidelines as published by the DOD (NRC)...Time, distance and shielding, decontamination procedures, tablets to protect the thyroid from cancer, etc. and 2% iodine only on the skin, as a last resort measure only. Although it is not conclusive, the studies that I have read, conducted by the Penn State researchers as well as some others, strongly suggest that it is a suitable protective measure. NEVER EVER HOWEVER, SHOULD YOU EVER DRINK IODINE WHETHER IT IS ONE OR TWO TEASPOONS, PERIOD!

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Wondered how long it would be before you corrected that Gunny.... You seem somewhat stubborn and persistent to say the least, in regards to your opinions, at least in this case. Personally I am somewhat quicker to admit when I am wrong about something, especially if it involves the health and well being of someone else. It was my concern for the health and well being of those who were reading your post concerning the use of iodine that prompted me to offer a correction in the first place. Were it not such a critical issue, I would have kept my mouth shut.
> 
> In regards to your claim that the tabs are expensive...I disagree and offer the following proof that they are not expensive :   http://www.approvedgasmasks.com/potassium-iodide.htm
> 
> I also take issue with your claim that the painting of the iodine solution on the skin as being ineffective except for the discoloration of the skin, and submit the following links:  
> 
> http://www.ki4u.com/guide.htm
> or : http://www.ibiblio.org/rcip/nuclear.html#homeremedy


Not sure you've been paying attention to the thread...

Because I acknowledged the fact on 8/18, and only today was reminded to correct the OP....

And regardless of that site, I still doubt there will be enough topical skin absorption to make that much of a difference.

But hey, if it makes you feel better to be disgusted by me, then far be it from me to crash on your happiness! (even if it is based out of your imagination instead of reality...)

----------


## AME3

You had to be reminded?
I find that sad...
And you are still insistent on being a medical expert....
Good luck on your political ambitions, you certainly seem to possess the character for the job.

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## GunnyFreedom

> You had to be reminded?
> I find that sad...
> And you are still insistent on being a medical expert....
> Good luck on your political ambitions, you certainly seem to possess the character for the job.


LOL AME3 - I have been irrationally hated and despised by better men that you.  So by all means!

----------


## AME3

LOL Gunny, of that I have no doubt.
Hate? No I do not hate you, nor do I feel inclined to continue this pis...g contest with you. My only objective here is to try and lessen any further harm that your mis-information might cause. Your belligerence and ego have complicated these efforts. I apologize for my loss of temper, and any inappropriate remarks, but I stand firmly and adamantly by my convictions regarding the subject.
Were you a better man, a man of greater character, then you would have responded much sooner than you did, admitting candidly, that you were wrong....you might have even thanked me for bringing your error to light. I even commended you personally, in an effort to provoke that response so that those following this discussion would clearly understand the danger of drinking iodine. But, no, you chose instead, (only after it was unescapable due to the preponderance of evidence presented) to offer up a weak and diluted concession, lacking in clarity. Another mistake on your part, IMHO, which may very sadly result someday, in some poor soul drinking iodine. I only pray that all who have read your advice have come back and gotten the truth. And that, gunny, is all I have to say about that.

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## Dr.3D

Now I feel bad about saying anything in this thread about that.
I should have probably messaged Gunny privately.

Now please, the both of you.... shake hands and make up.
I have respect for both of you but this has gone on long enough and it serves no productive purpose at all.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Now I feel bad about saying anything in this thread about that.
> I should have probably messaged Gunny privately.
> 
> Now please, the both of you.... shake hands and make up.
> I have respect for both of you but this has gone on long enough and it serves no productive purpose at all.


Please don't worry Dr.3D.

If you notice, the ONLY posts that AME3 has made in his entire history on RPF's have been to attack me, which he is still doing.  I have no problems making peace, but at this point I doubt that the guy even wants peace.  He seems to be locked in some kind of anti-me vendetta.

But really I don't mind.  It has been my experience that doing things on principle tends to win you irrational enemies.

----------


## AME3

Peace

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Peace


Hear here, peace!  and if in any way I have overstepped, I apologize.  My intent is never to offend; but I do have a contrarian nature where I become incapable of backing away from a challenge.  I mean all around -- it was the challenge that had me pick the Marines instead of the Air Force.  As Monk would say, it's a blessing, and a curse.

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## AME3

Gotta love the monk, gonna miss him...

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## AME3

Now that the iodine thing is behind us Gunny, let us continue to discuss this PAW survival thing. What other if any, considerations are there? Should we all stock up on the survival equipment and supplies, take a paramedic course, secure a homebase with water and protection, etc.? Should we focus more on nuclear events than bio or chemical ones?
Do you think, and I am almost certain that you do, (your having been in the Corp), that there are some skills and tips etc. in regards to organizing a group (post event) and establishing a council or committee to create an alliance or team which would improve everyones chances of survival? Like having a security team and leader, medical personnel, resource procurers, ...etc.
How also, would one approach others for purposes of barter and trade in a safe and controlled fashion?

----------


## AME3

What are your thoughts about clothing? I am in the process of assembling a collection of high tech warm and cold weather attire. I like the new quick drying, wrinkle free, light weight stuff coming from Columbia, NorthFace, and the likes. There are also high tech socks and liners to keep ones feet warm, cool and most importantly, dry. I like the thorlo brand especially, and have been to their outlet in Statesville NC where they sell to the public (slight blemishes, all cosmetic) at significantly lower prices. I have a pair of hemp jeans and some hemp socks and shirts, which I trully love. They are (unbelievable, but true) soft and comfortable...more so than cotton, even egyptian or pima. Not like canvas, as most people believe. The durability is unbelievable too. I am planning on testing them in the cool damp woods one day, if I can muster up the courage that is.

I recently purchased NorthFaces convertible warm weather trail pants. They are really comfortable and lightweight but rugged. I have found some nice stuff through the deluth trading co., like wrinkle free sports coats, dress slacks and shirts which are great for travel and can be hand washed in a hotel sink and dried quickly. I even have one of their sport coats that my friends all thought was an Armani. I had to show them the label to prove to them that it wasn't.
The cost is a little on the high side, but they stand by their stuff like LLBean, and the quality and versatility make it worth it, IMHO.

I have collected several styles of military BDU's which I use in heavy brush or all around outdoor work. The heavy ones are almost like canvas, I have found them to be pretty good, although I hate the drawstring waste thing.
Cotton I have been told, is death in the wet cold environment. Wool on the other hand, retains heat even when wet. The fabrics like gortex breath and allow moisture out but block moisture from entering. Kevlar is but another interesting material with exceptional characteristcs. All in all their are some pretty cool fabrics around that's for sure.

A tip: the high end outdoor stores are selling off their summer lines at great prices as they move to the cooler season stuff.

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## GunnyFreedom

I actually had about 2 hours worth of a reply that I had put together in my text editor, and in the course of multitasking on other items created a catastrophic system failure that crashed my text editor before I saved or posted the text.  Now I have a job to run to today, but I'll get back here again tonight, and reconstruct most of what I wrote yesterday.

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## AME3

What a bummer. I know exactly how you feel. Am looking forward to your input.

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## tangent4ronpaul

GF, try open office.  it saves automatically for you.  Plus it's free.

AME3, about P-school...  I'd advise against.

The only upside is that your medical director is more likely to Rx you meds.  There are many down sides.  For starters, while there are a couple of programs where you go straight through, most states demand that you get your EMT first, then work for 1-2 years in the field and then get your medical directors sign off before you are allowed to attend.  Second, if you go through this school on the civi side, the concentration will be on cardiac care.  In austere situations, these people die.  There is also an emphasis on a "golden hour" - primarily from a trauma situation.  The assumption that the person will end up in an advanced medical facility shortly.  This isn't the case in a TSHTF situation.  You won't be taught long term care or the effects of your interventions and needed recovery from such.  As one example, I know of one program that teaches how to do a C-Section.  To put it bluntly, if you deliver a child this way ("Amateur C-Section") every future child she has will have to be delivered the same way.  Consider C-Collars.  Totally worthless if you don't have a X-Ray capability and are able to put someone in a halo.  What about IV fluids?  Useful for a lifeline, but if a person is bleeding out, their veins are going to be pushing saline and no O2 in short order, if you can't deliver them to a surgical facility or do that yourself.  HOWEVER! - 500cc's can keep them alive, or rather their brain, long enough to establish a sterile field and perform an intervention that will save their life - but also land you in jail for performing medicine without a license - in this country.   BP cuffs are over rated.  You can tell if a pt is going south by comparing pulses at various locations though they are useful for pressure irrigation around a IV bag to clean out a wound and you can Dx a fracture or broken bone with a tuning fork and a stethoscope. 

There are SHTF and relief/missionary med classes available that will serve you much better, as the assumption is "you're it"...  Other classes focus on expeditions, wilderness medicine, and "medical person in charge" for ships.  Massively delayed to no terminal care available.  That's the kind of class you want.  They tend to run 3 days to a month, and they are long days.  Going through EMT then P-School is a minimum of 2 years.

It's hard to find a doc that will Rx you drugs - but not impossible.  We live in one of the most repressive countries in the worlds as to getting meds.  As to team members, look for MD's, PA's and NP's.

-t

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> GF, try open office.  it saves automatically for you.  Plus it's free.
> 
> -t


So is TextWrangler, and it actually does what I need it to.    If I want a word processor I use Pages or InDesign, for long structured work I use Scrivner, and for text I use TextWrangler or BBEdit.  So don't you worry about me contributing to the M$ demon. 

On a POSIX system I suffer a catastrophic failure, what -- once every 2-3 years?  It almost never happens in a protected memory environment where an app failure cascades into a system failure.  I will re-write the reply, had a run of jobs and am putting out bushfires and getting materials set up for the campaign.

----------


## AME3

.Thanks gunny...were you a medic?

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

> I agree with most of what you said, especially about the paramedic training. In regards to the value of fluid therapy (IV'S) in a PAW, as I stated previously awhile back , IV's can definitely be life saving in cases where external hemmorhage has been controlled and the patient hasn't lost more than a few liters of blood.


A normal adult only has 5-6 liters - if you've lost 3+ you are not going to be in good shape, and very possibly not salvageable.




> They are also great for correcting dehydration ( another cause of hypovolemia) and replenishing electrolytes which may have been caused by a loss of fluid via diarrhea, vommiting, or hyperthermia.


ORS is generally going to be a better solution, but in the IV situation - go ringers.  It's harder to make, though...




> Pulses when palpable, can give one an aprox blood pressure, which is mostly useful in a trauma setting. A sphygmomanometer (BP cuff) also has other beneficial medical uses too, and I keep one calibrated and in my med pack along with my stethoscoe which is also a valuable tool in the right hands.
> I practiced and taught emergency medicine through a third service provider and the local college for thirty years. I also worked in the local ER.


re: BP cuff - what other beneficial uses? - just curious?  I can think of as an aid to breaking into a locked car, cannibalized for newborn suction, possibly as a tourniquet or maybe an aid to stop a vaginal bleed... what else?  

"third service provider" ???

-t

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Now that the iodine thing is behind us Gunny, let us continue to discuss this PAW survival thing. What other if any, considerations are there? Should we all stock up on the survival equipment and supplies, take a paramedic course, secure a homebase with water and protection, etc.? Should we focus more on nuclear events than bio or chemical ones?
> Do you think, and I am almost certain that you do, (your having been in the Corp), that there are some skills and tips etc. in regards to organizing a group (post event) and establishing a council or committee to create an alliance or team which would improve everyones chances of survival? Like having a security team and leader, medical personnel, resource procurers, ...etc.
> How also, would one approach others for purposes of barter and trade in a safe and controlled fashion?


Well, in re to focusing more on nuclear than bio -- NBC prep is really all the same.  You prep for one you pretty much prep for all three.  Other than the immediate gamma and blast damage from a nuke, particulate and fallout contamination protection is pretty much the same as for chem or bio.

Difference is with Chem or bio you will probably have some idea it's coming, especially if you do not live on top of a high value target.  NBC prep is really about having a box with a crap ton of plastic and duct tape and hoping it just collects dust for the next 70 years.

If you do have to use it, set up black, grey, and white zones, and make certain your have one full bath in the white zone.  Your direct entry way could be "black" meaning dirty, your main house could be "gray" meaning partial, and your master suite and living room could be "white" meaning clean.  Section with plastic and armor your white zone against gas grenades if the threat is chemical.

If you can set up a "shower" transition from grey to white, then you are at the top of the game.  If you can set up overpressure, then you are as almost as advanced as the pro's.

Survival is more about a mindset than knowledge and equipment really.  Someone with the right frame of mind but naked and possessing a single blade of grass will survive longer than a suicidal nut-bar with all the stocks and equipment in the world.

Everything depends on the situation that confronts you.  In some situations, it will be important to bring the neighborhood together.  There will be a call for the kinds of political skills picked up during the Ron Paul effort.  In other situations, it may be best to make all the world think your place is abandoned and worthless.

I am relying on some 1oz silver for barter, but also a lot of extra ammunition, toilet paper, some food laid aside for use as currency, and some heirloom seeds for growing goods of value.

As to how to approach given persons neighborhoods markets for trade, it would be hard to settle on specifics given that every situation may be completely different.  Are you negotiating with a neighbor?  Some stranger?  The Black Market?  Each one requires different levels of security precautions.  If you are bartering with a stranger and you have something he wants, make sure he does not know where you are from, lest he show up with 50 friends one day.  If you are bartering with a black marketeer, then it may be a good idea to take an armed squad and place a fire-team on over-watch in a neutral location far from either of your home territories.  If it's someone within your own neighborhood, you may get a bargaining advantage by meeting them in their own house -- if you trust them.  So it's hard to say, really.  It's a matter of tailoring the method to the circumstances.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> .Thanks gunny...were you a medic?


Intelligence, though we had to be "just a little bit" of every MOS in the Marines.  We referred to ourselves generally a s"Jack of all trades, master of none."  Although in school I topped out the analysis exercise, Intell turned out to be more about knowing how to do everybody's job in the entire Corps than about knowing how to analyze disjointed data into organized information.  Actually, just FYI, all the medics in the Marines are actually Navy.

----------


## hamilton1049

> Intelligence, though we had to be "just a little bit" of every MOS in the Marines.  We referred to ourselves generally a s"Jack of all trades, master of none."  Although in school I topped out the analysis exercise, Intell turned out to be more about knowing how to do everybody's job in the entire Corps than about knowing how to analyze disjointed data into organized information.  Actually, just FYI, all the medics in the Marines are actually Navy.


Yeah and the higher up the rank structure you got the more this was true, once I hit E7 there was no telling where I was gonna wake up the next morning.  LOL

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Yeah and the higher up the rank structure you got the more this was true, once I hit E7 there was no telling where I was gonna wake up the next morning.  LOL


As I mentioned before, and especially want to mention again in response to this post, "Gunny" Freedom is a guerrilla politics character created for two boards, Liberty's Price, and then Ron Paul Forums.  Glen Bradley only ever made Corporal, or E4.

That said, you are exactly right.  I stuck at home more than your average 0231 because they were prepping me for an early chief spot, but on a day to day basis I might have found myself attached to any Marine on the station of E6 (Staff Sergeant) or better.

I'm not sure if it's cultural or experiential, but it is a hard truth that they want Intell guys to have pretty much every MOS in the book under their belts.

----------


## hamilton1049

I think it was based on 4 tendencies either:

A.  You were a hard charger who sought and took responsibility and the more you did the more they wanted you to do.

B.  You were a maggot they kept shuffling you around to get you outta their hair.

C.  Once you hit E7 you are mainly concerned with managing people, knowledge in a specific field depended on the technical complexity of the field and in some cases a security clearance but in most cases leadership was more important.

D.  And of course the all time favorite "It ain't what you know but who ya know".

I suspect you were a A type having talked to you.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> I think it was based on 4 tendencies either:
> 
> A.  You were a hard charger who sought and took responsibility and the more you did the more they wanted you to do.
> 
> B.  You were a maggot they kept shuffling you around to get you outta their hair.
> 
> C.  Once you hit E7 you are mainly concerned with managing people, knowledge in a specific field depended on the technical complexity of the field and in some cases a security clearance but in most cases leadership was more important.
> 
> D.  And of course the all time favorite "It ain't what you know but who ya know".
> ...


Actually, it was probably more of an A type for 3 years, as I actually made S2 chief as only a Corporal, which is unusual.  It was only about 3 years and 2 months in that I ran aground of bad politics and had to deal with a jerk captain who had no business being in the Corps.  It was only after that that I let down the hard charger and just became 'one of the guys.'

If I had been a little more mature at the time, I would never have dropped the hard charger attitude, and I'd probably still be in the Corps.  But at the time, I was young, dumb, and full of... well, you know.  I didn't know any better.  I got the idiot attitude that this one bad captain was representative of the Corps and I wanted out.

It wasn't a year after I got out that it occurred to me that one bad captain does not a bad Marine Corps make.  

Ahhh youth.

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## hamilton1049

Sorry I edited that I know your story.  A it is.  Nobody who is a B would be as dedicated as you are.

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## GunnyFreedom

> Sorry I edited that I know your story.  A it is.  Nobody who is a B would be as dedicated as you are.


Yes, we met behind the NCCM thing. An effort I am still given to, actually. I appreciate it. I really was created to be a lifer. From my earliest memory I had no plans excep 30 years in the Service. I was that guy who some Marines hated because I was alwas so serious and duty oriented. Funny, I became the most popular guy in the squadron just because after the thing with the captain I decided (stupidly) that I was NOT a lifer, that I had been let down, so I relaxed and stopped caring, and then all the Marines who didn't used to like me, suddenly did. It was very strange. 

But I would not have been able to campaign for RP if I were still in, so I have finally decided that things just might have worked out just how they were supposed to.

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## hamilton1049

I have posted your candidacy on the NCCM site I hope it brings you some help from that direction, I'll be real disappointed if it doesn't.

To be perfectly honest Glen though I am proud of my years in the Marines, if for no more then the physical accomplishment, the longer I look at it from the Liberty movement the more I question the real value of it, so it goes both ways dude.

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## GunnyFreedom

> I have posted your candidacy on the NCCM site I hope it brings you some help from that direction, I'll be real disappointed if it doesn't.
> 
> To be perfectly honest Glen though I am proud of my years in the Marines, if for no more then the physical accomplishment, the longer I look at it from the Liberty movement the more I question the real value of it, so it goes both ways dude.


Well, thank you, very much for stepping up and helping in every way that you have helped.  At this rate, it looks like I'll be meeting my goals of $500 by the 11th and $1000 by the 17th, and can have the kind of kickoff event we really need!

The next thing will be setting up a moneybomb page for the 28th of September, I'll call it the "Save The Republic Money Bomb" or something similar based on the Ben Franklin quote referenced elsewhere.

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## AME3

Well, Tangent4RonPaul:

I initially erased all of the stuff I had written (or thought I had), and decided to just let it go, and go with the flow, I really do not enjoy conflict. I was surprised tonight, to see that it got posted anyway, and not real happy about it either. I will, out of respect, however, attempt to respond to your curiosity.

First of all, a "third service provider" is a term used to describe a pre-hospital medical care and transportation system which is government operated. Some are user fee supplemented and tax supported, while others are totally tax supported. In either case, a City, County, State, or Federal entity is the operational authority and provider of service. I apologize for using the term, I am so used to speaking to groups who are familiar with such terms, forgive me. Hey, I'm old too...heck, I was working a flight deck before the gunny was born! My professional career is older than he is....hell I probably got socks older than him...but I do know my medicine.

As for the use of normal saline 0.9%, half normal saline solution, lactated ringers, ringers sol, D5W, or any of the other variations of intravenous fluids commonly used. Normal saline is the one most commonly employed, and the safest (it is called "normal saline 0.9% because it is equal to the bodies normal fluid salinity), except for patients who have cardiac conditions and the salt in the solution may be detremental (some controversy here however). The saline can be used for wound or eye irrigation, whereas the other fluids L/R included can not. N/S is also the only one used for the admin. of a blood trans. as L/R will cause a clumping of the cells...not a good thing. NS is also a fluid of general choice through which various IV meds can be administered through, whereas ringers can not be mixed with several meds. There is an ongoing controversy in regards to whether or not ringers or saline is preferrable for fluid loss from trauma. As you pointed out, saline is easier to manufacture and that is a plus too in a PAW setting. Loss of fluids from dehydration or burns can kill you just as quickly and dead as can external loss by trauma (gunshots, lacerations, internal bleeding, etc.), and Saline is the preferred fluid. I could further justify saline by discussing the fact that it is an isotonic fluid whereas the others are hypotonic or hypertonic which would require me to explain osmolarity and human physiology, etc. and that would take me all night.  

Blood pressure readings in medical care are useful in the diagnosis of head injuries, hypertension, hypotension (e.g. shock), the establishment of a base line (an individuals normal) to monitor for changes which may indicate the presence or evolvement of a disease process or condition. Aside from the upper (systolic) and the lower number (diastolic) values, the pulse pressure (i.e. the distance between the two) is useful in recognizing cardiac tamponade (a very dangerous condition requirring prompt intervention) and heart failure. The comparison of pressures taken in the right arm and compared to the left can be very useful in detecting the presence of an aortic aneurysm. In short, it is an essential diagnostic tool in the management of many life threatening conditions. In the hands of a layperson, its use is admittedly limited, and if it is a cost concern, can be eliminated from the kit. I do however, reccomend one if possible, if not just to record the pressures of a patient periodically, along with other vital signs so that someone who is more knowledgable (e.g. a medical professional) that comes along can be given the information which could, potentially be a life saving thing for sure, or at least have access to the equipment.
I would like to know how one would position a b/p cuff for the control of vaginal hemmorhage....or maybe I wouldn't...lol. Incidentally, a cuff can be very useful in applying direct pressure (the first step in the control of external bleeding) in an extremity or when used with a roll of gauze placed directly over the pressure point above the wound, thusly cutting off the flow of blood through the vessel supplying the wound. A tournequet, is always a last resort (for various reasons) and a cuff would not apply the pressure necessary in most cases.

There is a big difference between the care rendered to stabilize an ill or injured person until they can be handed over to a tertiary (higher) level of care. A combat medic, is like a street medic and is severely limited in what they are trained and equipped to do in the field. But both, given the right circumstances, like in a PAW, where there is no one to hand the patient over to, can do many things that they would not do in the field setting that can indeed save that life. A simple infusion of a couple of liters of fluid, has saved many lives before the patient ever got to the ER, and in fact many are discharged home soon after arrival. These patients had lost fluid and gone into shock (were critically close to death) who did not require any surgical or other intervention to correct their problem.

In closing, I apologize for my poor grammar, spelling and typing.

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## AME3

Yeah, I know gunny. They are called corpman. Corpman are navy and gunnies are sargeants in the marine corp. No offense intended.

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## tangent4ronpaul

> "third service provider"


This is a term I have never heard.  Perhaps it is above my pay grade, or perhaps it's a regional issue.  Then again, it might just date you.  I have worked in the conditions you defined as this covering.




> I do know my medicine.


Of this I have no doubt!




> As for the use of normal saline 0.9%, half normal saline solution, lactated ringers, ringers sol, D5W, or any of the other variations of intravenous fluids commonly used. Normal saline is the one most commonly employed, and the safest (it is called "normal saline 0.9% because it is equal to the bodies normal fluid salinity), except for patients who have cardiac conditions and the salt in the solution may be detremental (some controversy here however). The saline can be used for wound or eye irrigation, whereas the other fluids L/R included can not. N/S is also the only one used for the admin. of a blood trans. as L/R will cause a clumping of the cells...not a good thing. NS is also a fluid of general choice through which various IV meds can be administered through, whereas ringers can not be mixed with several meds. There is an ongoing controversy in regards to whether or not ringers or saline is preferrable for fluid loss from trauma. As you pointed out, saline is easier to manufacture and that is a plus too in a PAW setting. Loss of fluids from dehydration or burns can kill you just as quickly and dead as can external loss by trauma (gunshots, lacerations, internal bleeding, etc.), and Saline is the preferred fluid. I could further justify saline by discussing the fact that it is an isotonic fluid whereas the others are hypotonic or hypertonic which would require me to explain osmolarity and human physiology, etc. and that would take me all night.


partially yawn, partially interesting and your lack of explaining the tonic issues is a cop out – I've seen it done is several short para's.  I am, however impressed that you know some IV fluids are incompatible with some drugs.  Had a list of them around here somewhere.  However, the topic was replenishing electrolytes which is why I said ringers. 

Your comment on N/S being used w/ blood transfusions has me ????  Prior to – maybe.  In conjunction with – NOT!




> Blood pressure readings in medical care are useful in the diagnosis of head injuries, hypertension, hypotension (e.g. shock), the establishment of a base line (an individuals normal) to monitor for changes which may indicate the presence or evolvement of a disease process or condition. Aside from the upper (systolic) and the lower number (diastolic) values, the pulse pressure (i.e. the distance between the two) is useful in recognizing cardiac tamponade (a very dangerous condition requirring prompt intervention) and heart failure. The comparison of pressures taken in the right arm and compared to the left can be very useful in detecting the presence of an aortic aneurysm. In short, it is an essential diagnostic tool in the management of many life threatening conditions. In the hands of a layperson, its use is admittedly limited, and if it is a cost concern, can be eliminated from the kit. I do however, reccomend one if possible, if not just to record the pressures of a patient periodically, along with other vital signs so that someone who is more knowledgable (e.g. a medical professional) that comes along can be given the information which could, potentially be a life saving thing for sure, or at least have access to the equipment.
> I would like to know how one would position a b/p cuff for the control of vaginal hemmorhage....or maybe I wouldn't...lol. Incidentally, a cuff can be very useful in applying direct pressure (the first step in the control of external bleeding) in an extremity or when used with a roll of gauze placed directly over the pressure point above the wound, thusly cutting off the flow of blood through the vessel supplying the wound. A tournequet, is always a last resort (for various reasons) and a cuff would not apply the pressure necessary in most cases.


OK – I'm fairly impressed with your answer, but at the same time not interested in getting into a pissing match.  Some good examples of cardiac Dx, but ppl who would die in an austere situation – probably.  So you can tell they have this problem – in an austere situation how would you care for them?

The problem with the cuff being able to apply the appropriate pressure has to do with the failure point of Velcro.  Can you say “Duct Tape”?  Salvage ability of a limb post tourniquet has a lot to do with how long that tourniquet has been on and how wide it was.

As to vaginal  hemorrhage I was thinking of various means of compression as well as a very entertaining lecture in one of my EMS classes that had to do with genito-urinary injuries.  Specifically, some of the things young girls like to stick up themselves for sexual enjoyment – sometimes glass and rather fragile... as well as OB injuries during deliveries. The point being making the path of least resistance not being bleeding out.  I might also mention “gerbils” in certain applications, within certain communities – ahem... I would imagine only a part of the cuff being used within a glove... but total improvisation, and I know of no case where either approach has been used. 




> There is a big difference between the care rendered to stabilize an ill or injured person until they can be handed over to a tertiary (higher) level of care. A combat medic, is like a street medic and is severely limited in what they are trained and equipped to do in the field. But both, given the right circumstances, like in a PAW, where there is no one to hand the patient over to, can do many things that they would not do in the field setting that can indeed save that life. A simple infusion of a couple of liters of fluid, has saved many lives before the patient ever got to the ER, and in fact many are discharged home soon after arrival. These patients had lost fluid and gone into shock (were critically close to death) who did not require any surgical or other intervention to correct their problem.
> 
> In closing, I apologize for my poor grammar, spelling and typing.


Totally agree!

Ps: you really need to get a spell checker.

-t

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## AME3

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergen...y-operated_EMS


Lactated Ringers:
The presence of calcium limits their compatibility with certain drugs that form precipitates of calcium salts, and also prohibits their simultaneous infusion through the same administration set as blood because of the likelihood of coagulation (piggybacking).
Ideally, one would have access to both. How about the left arm (large bore of course) with a liter of saline, and the right arm (another large bore of course), with Ringers?
I tend to come from an administrators point of view, probably because of all my years as one. Technically I agree with you that Ringers is better than saline for the replenishment of fluid and electrolytes. Given the choice of having one or the other in my bag...I choose saline.  From an admins position, I prefer Saline simply because it is safer when you are looking at a large operation with a lot of green medics in the batch...

The pledge that I took when I began my career, which I continue, and always will, bind myself to:
Be it pledged as an Emergency Medical Technician, I will honor the physical and judicial laws of God and man. I will follow that regimen which, according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of patients and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous, nor shall I suggest any such counsel. Into whatever homes I enter, I will go into them for the benefit of only the sick and injured, never revealing what I see or hear in the lives of men unless required by law.
I shall also share my medical knowledge with those who may benefit from what I have learned. I will serve unselfishly and continuously in order to help make a better world for all mankind.

Spell checker? Yeah, yeah, I know....Damn I miss my admin. assistant.

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## Cowlesy

History Channel has jumped the shark.

I just flipped on it and they're talking about bug-out bags!

The actual term!

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## Southron

I am reading "The Road" and it is a good reminder to work on my preps.

Terrifying book when you realize such a scenario is possible.

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## TruckinMike

> Despite having a professional doctorate, I feel like my education is wholly inadequate in this regard.  I know nothing about how things, except for data and legal systems, work.  I have considered doing ongoing classes at the local CC to fix this weakness, and emergency medicine is a good place to start.
> 
> How relevant is a local EMT or paramedic progam to perhaps facing the potential of life threatening illness and injury, where little to no modern medical equipment is immediately available?
> 
> This question is for anyone who has enough knowledge on the subject to speak to it intelligently.


Check out the WRSA for a Grid down medical course. They tend have these periodically.

Here is the Link to the "REMOTE, AUSTERE, WILDERNESS & THIRD WORLD MEDICINE" forum - its packed with info.

And this PDF on Survival and Austere
Medicine  should get you started...

TMike

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## ihsv

There are literally hundreds of different types and sizes of backpacks, bags, shoulder bags, etc., that can be used for BOBs.  Any and all recommendations, tips or tricks would be great!  

I was reading around and some people, in order to save space when they pack extra changes of clothes, use vacuum packed bags to reduce the footprint.   I'm sure wrinkled clothes would be the last of anyone's worries in such a situation, but it makes a lot of sense in terms of space saving.

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## Danke

The hyper-caffeinated grinning little piggy is back!

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## ihsv

Hey, Danke!  It's been awhile!  Great to be back!

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## Dr.3D

> There are literally hundreds of different types and sizes of backpacks, bags, shoulder bags, etc., that can be used for BOBs.  Any and all recommendations, tips or tricks would be great!  
> 
> I was reading around and some people, in order to save space when they pack extra changes of clothes, use vacuum packed bags to reduce the footprint.   I'm sure wrinkled clothes would be the last of anyone's worries in such a situation, but it makes a lot of sense in terms of space saving.


Instead of vacuum bags, you might want to consider using stuff sacks.   The end result is pretty much the same and you don't need a vacuum cleaner to repack the bag.
http://www.backcountry.com/stuff-and-compression-sacks

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## Cowlesy

Good day to bump this with the hurricane inbound

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## heavenlyboy34

All kinds of good information here.  We just need some details about how to handle the zombie hordes coming for our brains.

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## GunnyFreedom

dam. I never did finish this.

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## pcosmar

> All kinds of good information here.  We just need some details about how to handle the zombie hordes coming for our brains.


http://www.bt.cdc.gov/socialmedia/zombies_blog.asp
http://www.armytimes.com/offduty/hea...-guide-072611/

Those are Govt guides, but there are better guides.

http://www.thinkgeek.com/books/humor/7838/

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## Corydoras

From reading about the Japanese tsunami, I noticed the one thing I think that people need that usually isn't on survival lists is WORK GLOVES.

Good for dealing with splintered boards, broken glass, climbing over stuff, breaking branches, etc.

Not to mention that desk jockeys like me need gloves for handling just about anything rougher than a toner cartridge.

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## Buchananite

I've read through the first few pages and I am not sure what exactly the PAW is in this instance.

Christians don't need to worry about surviving in the PAW referenced in the Bible.

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## GunnyFreedom

> I've read through the first few pages and I am not sure what exactly the PAW is in this instance.
> 
> Christians don't need to worry about surviving in the PAW referenced in the Bible.


Thats because the rapture is deeply misunderstood.  We will "reign with Him" on earth for 1000 years.  Many of us will be charged with providing a way for the lost.  The rapture is a transformation in-place.  God _always_ leaves a remnant.  

I am not a Catholic either, but there are more Catholics than Protestants, and Catholics do not believe in getting caught up and flying away into the sky.  It's kinda arrogant to assume that all Christians believe how you do, and that if they do not then they are not Christians.

I am a Christian originalist - Hebrew Roots.  I have the same mindset when it comes to the Church as I do when is comes to US Government.  The have both abandoned their Constitutions, and the general membership of both are largely unaware of it.

If your church is a 501(c)3 organization then there is already something wrong, and that explains the blind spot most Christians have.  If one is blinded to the sinfulness of 501(c)3 then all manner of wickedness and blasphemy can hide in that blind spot where most Christians simply cannot see it.

Make no mistake, a lot of people who are genuinely in Christ will attend the Great Tribulation, even if we are not made to suffer in it.  Preparedness will help create a means to share the Gospel to a lost and dying world.  We will have the fortunate blessing of the miracle of multiplication, so saving up 10 persons worth of food for a year is more likely to feed 100 or hundreds, but always remember the parable of the talents, burying your talents instead of profiting the Master will not be kindly regarded in the judgement.

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