# News & Current Events > World News & Affairs >  REPORT: Putin declares War has started with Georgia

## Cowlesy

CNBC just said that jets have been shotdown, and troops/armaments have moved over the border into Georgia?

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...68040420080808

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## FindLiberty

_...so freedom (independence) shall perish._

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## acptulsa

Chechniya II.  Why don't they just remind Putin he's not their damned president any more?  Would save a lot of trouble.

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## Kludge

Hm.... I didn't know Georgia still existed.

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## Kade

Wow... 

Georgia is about to become a member of NATO.. 

Russia is dropping bombs as I write.. (via CNN)

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## ItsTime

Russia is liberating Georgia

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## The One

> Russia is liberating Georgia


....because Georgia hates Russia for its freedoms.

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## Drknows

I'm sure we will release a statement condemning this.  We have to make sure we're involved in the mess. We our the world police after all.

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## New York For Paul

Georgia is expecting the US to back them up against Russia.

I wonder where they got that idea.

On paper, the small Georgian military is no match for the might of the Russian armed forces. *But Mr Saakashvili has calculated that his friends in the West, notably America and Britain, will protect him against an all out Russian attack.*

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4486297.ece

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## Dustancostine

"The Georgian leadership has resorted to very aggressive actions, he said. "There are casualties, including among Russian peacekeepers. This is very sad and this will incur a response."

Peacekeepers =  DoubleSpeak

Our troops who have invaded your country are Peacekeepers

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## Cowlesy

Stock Market likes it --- up 180 on the Dow, oil down $4, Gold down $21

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## Dustancostine

Also Georgia is just North of Iran, I bet we end up building a base there.

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## CasualApathy

There is an almost total blackout in the danish media as i am writing this.

This is happening while the world is focused on the opening ceremony of the Olympics.

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## FrankRep

I, for one, welcome our new Russian overlords.

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## Kludge

> There is an almost total blackout in the danish media as i am writing this.
> 
> This is happening while the world is focused on the opening ceremony of the Olympics.


*Didn't I say the Olympics would be used by the Reptilians as a distraction? 
**HUH?!*

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## pacelli

> I'm sure we will release a statement condemning this.  We have to make sure we're involved in the mess. We our the world police after all.


Just watch how we back off our 'interventionist' foreign policy to protect a sovereign state, because we know we'd get our ass handed to us economically by the Communists.

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## Drknows

> There is an almost total blackout in the danish media as i am writing this.
> 
> This is happening while the world is focused on the opening ceremony of the Olympics.


Not much on the news here in the US either. I heard it was on CNN briefly.

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## CasualApathy

> *Didn't I say the Olympics would be used by the Reptilians as a distraction? 
> **HUH?!*


I really don't pay attention to what you say.

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## New York For Paul

Great time to start a war. All the leaders are in China.

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## Kludge

> I really don't pay attention to what you say.



Alas, I am but the modern Alex Jones

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## ItsTime

I hope you all have a stockpile of food and water.

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## CasualApathy

> Alas, I am but the modern Alex Jones


If that is true, the Lizardman Liberation Front welcomes you with open arms.
You are hereby nominated as honorary gecko.

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## pacelli

It seems like our controlled media is blacking this out as well. I'm watching stories about Bill Clinton's role at the convention, Dick Cheney to speak at the RNC, Detroit Mayor Jailed, Israel pressuring Iran.  

Nothing about Georgia.  Out of sight, out of mind, right?

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## acptulsa

The Cold War is over.  Welcome to the hot one.

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## ItsTime

> It seems like our controlled media is blacking this out as well. I'm watching stories about Bill Clinton's role at the convention, Dick Cheney to speak at the RNC, Detroit Mayor Jailed, Israel pressuring Iran.  
> 
> Nothing about Georgia.  Out of sight, out of mind, right?


Yup. I called a few people and they asked "where did you see that?"

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## Drknows

> Just watch how we back off our 'interventionist' foreign policy to protect a sovereign state, because we know we'd get our ass handed to us economically by the Communists.


Yeah i don't think anything will happen just another day of nothing to see here move along.

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## rpfan2008

> Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, speaking in Beijing earlier on Friday, said *it would be difficult to stop Russian volunteers from heading to South Ossetia to help the province*.
> 
> Volunteers to fight on South Ossetia's side have been gathering in neighboring Russian Caucasus republics. Abkhazia has also pledged its support.


http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080808/115900078.html

Volunteers?? extra soldiers in civilian clothing?

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## ItsTime

I wonder if Iran will help Russia

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## rpfan2008

> It seems like our controlled media is blacking this out as well. I'm watching stories about Bill Clinton's role at the convention, Dick Cheney to speak at the RNC, Detroit Mayor Jailed, Israel pressuring Iran.  
> 
> Nothing about Georgia.  Out of sight, out of mind, right?


not Olympic??

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## CasualApathy

> I wonder if Iran will help Russia


Actually Georgia and Iran don't share any borders..

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## ItsTime

> Actually Georgia and Iran don't share any borders..


The USA shares no boarders with Iraq.

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## CasualApathy

> The USA shares no boarders with Iraq.


True, but Iran is not the USA. What are they going to do? fly over there and parachute down? And why would they?

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## brandon

> Actually Georgia and Iran don't share any borders..


Yes but they are very close...

I'm wondering if Russia is trying to gain a strategic position in anticipation of our invasion of Iran.

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## CasualApathy

[/QUOTE]

Btw. Have you noticed that huge danish territory right next to you? Watch out, the vikings are coming!

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## acptulsa

> I'm wondering if Russia is trying to gain a strategic position in anticipation of our invasion of Iran.


...or deny our greedy asses one...

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## The One

> Actually Georgia and Iran don't share any borders..



Whew....I thought Georgia was in the United States.  I feel much better now that I know it's not us being invaded.

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## CasualApathy

> Whew....I thought Georgia was in the United States.  I feel much better now that I know it's not us being invaded.


Perhaps it's just practice

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## New York For Paul

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-lCS3FK0X4

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## acptulsa

> Whew....I thought Georgia was in the United States.  I feel much better now that I know it's not us being invaded.


That I wouldn't complain about--provided they gave it back to the Cherokees once they took it!

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## CasualApathy

From the CNN article:




> "All day today, they've been bombing Georgia from numerous warplanes and specifically targeting (the) civilian population, and we have scores of wounded and dead among (the) civilian population all around the country," President Mikhail Saakashvili told CNN in an exclusive interview.
> 
> "This is the worst nightmare one can encounter," he said.
> 
> Asked whether Georgia and Russia were now at war, he said, "My country is in self-defense against Russian aggression. Russian troops invaded Georgia."

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## rpfan2008

Russia is trying to maintain their access to the Black Sea. I feel that Russians will soon attack and siege the Georgian capital by opening a second front. They might also try to create yet another buffer zone between Rus-Gor.

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## CasualApathy

More, including Russian response: 




> Putin was at a meeting with U.S. President Bush in Beijing, where they attended a luncheon for world leaders hosted by the Chinese president ahead of the Olympics, which begin Friday.
> 
> "There are lots of volunteers being gathered in the region, and it's very hard to withhold them from taking part. A real war is going on," Putin said, according to his spokesman, Dmitry Peskov.
> 
> Russian peacekeepers are in South Ossetia under a 1992 agreement by Russian, Georgian, and South Ossetian authorities to maintain what has been a fragile peace. The mixed peacekeeping force also includes Georgian and South Ossetian troops.
> 
> "The Georgian leadership has launched a dirty adventure," said a statement from Russia's Defense Ministry on Friday. "We will not leave our peacekeepers and Russian citizens unprotected."
> 
> Saakashvili said the Russian invasion of South Ossetia was pre-planned.
> ...

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## Rangeley

> It seems like our controlled media is blacking this out as well. I'm watching stories about Bill Clinton's role at the convention, Dick Cheney to speak at the RNC, Detroit Mayor Jailed, Israel pressuring Iran.  
> 
> Nothing about Georgia.  Out of sight, out of mind, right?


Yea, whats with that? It is getting coverage online as the top story for all the news sites, but no tv stations are covering it.

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## Drknows

> ...or deny our greedy asses one...


I agree something is fishy about all this and on the eve of the Olympics. and on 08-08-08 too..  

But check out the Timeline this conflict has been brewing for a long time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7548715.stm




> SOUTH OSSETIA TIMELINE
> 1991-92 S Ossetia fights war to break away from newly independent Georgia; Russia enforces truce
> *2004 Mikhail Saakashvili elected Georgian president, promising to recover lost territories*
> 2006 S Ossetians vote for independence in unofficial referendum
> *April 2008 Russia steps up ties with Abkhazia and South Ossetia*
> *July 2008 Russia admits flying jets over S Ossetia; Russia and Georgia accuse each other of military build-up*
> *7 August 2008 After escalating Georgian-Ossetian clashes, sides agree to ceasefire
> 8 August 2008 Heavy fighting erupts overnight, Georgian forces close on Tskhinvali*

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## CasualApathy

Interview with Georgian President: 

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video...aakashvili.cnn

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## ItsTime

cnn just now... full "values" propaganda from Georgia president saying that Russia is attacking USA values.  Now talking heads are saying Georgia is part of Americas interest. Basically saying we should go and help.

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## Fox McCloud

> cnn just now... full "values" propaganda from Georgia president saying that Russia is attacking USA values.  Now talking heads are saying Georgia is part of Americas interest. Basically saying we should go and help.


There was a radio talk show host that mentioned if this happens we're going to be be in quite a quagmire, since we've backed Georgia for a while now, and if Russia invades.....big mess.

Either way, this is not good, not good at all.

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## brandon

> cnn just now... full "values" propaganda from Georgia president saying that Russia is attacking USA values.  Now talking heads are saying Georgia is part of Americas interest. Basically saying we should go and help.


More evidence that Russia's motives are to deny us a strategic position in the "WOT"

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## Dary

Richard Holbrook just said on CNN that the U.S. needs to take the lead in defending Georgia.

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## ItsTime

> Richard Holbrook just said on CNN that the U.S. needs to take the lead in defending Georgia.


This crap makes my blood boil. I cant watch the propaganda anymore. Since Ron Paul stopped running for president I have had to stop watching MSM. The propaganda is so much more clear now than before.

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## New York For Paul

We will see if any NATO or US submarines pop up in the black sea and start firing cruise missles. Of course that might complicate plans for any Iranian attack in the future. Maybe that is why they are doing this now.

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## CasualApathy

Wow, the US actually has a chance to aid Georgia in a legitimate "Just war" of self-defense.

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## ItsTime

> Wow, the US actually has a chance to aid Georgia in a legitimate "Just war" of self-defense.


If it is true that Russia attacked and not that Georgia was attacking.

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## Agent Chameleon

I shall pray for the people of Georgia and Russia.

And pray that we don't get involved.

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## klamath

This shows why NATO's time should have been over and even more that it should have never been expanded to loose canon countries in the area.

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## TER

Maybe this is the US gift offering to Russia in order for them to not interfere with the upcoming bombing of IRAN.

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## armstrong

we are playing chess while sitting at the poker table , who has the best bluff ? I will let you see both my hands and while you looking you will not see what my friends have put in place, and you will not find out about it for a time to come. Times like this shows us why Dr. Ron Paul says mind our own buisness and protect our shores and trade with others ,,we are not the policeman of the world.

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## Drknows

> Richard Holbrook just said on CNN that the U.S. needs to take the lead in defending Georgia.


Our fate is in the hands of CNN journalism. I always knew this is how it would begin. WW3 people.

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## acptulsa

And what is Yahoo carrying on about as all hell breaks loose?

First photos of Olympic Opening Ceremony
See why the 2008 Olympic medal is unique
Avoid making these dating mistakes
Celebrities on their really bad hair days 

Move along folks.  Nothing to see here...

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## pacelli

> Richard Holbrook just said on CNN that the U.S. needs to take the lead in defending Georgia.


Isn't Holbrooke a Bilderberg attendee?

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## INforRP

> Wow, the US actually has a chance to aid Georgia in a legitimate "Just war" of self-defense.


You are kidding right? 

Also since when did we start believing anything from CNN?

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## gutteck

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/09/wo...60e&ei=5087%0A



> It was unclear how the United States might react to a Russian attack on Georgia, a strong American ally, whose shift toward the West and pursuit of NATO membership has deeply angered Russia.

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## CasualApathy

> Our fate is in the hands of CNN journalism. I always knew this is how it would begin. WW3 people.


If the US intervenes you may be right, but I don't think they will. The EU and NATO surely wont. 

However, I do not think that this will be the last Russian occupation of a former Soviet member state. 

Even here in Denmark we have had to scramble our fighters 9 times this year because of Russian bombers flying on the very border of our airspace. This is what they did during the cold war as well.

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## TER

I'm scared this means we will be bombing Iran very very soon.

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## torchbearer

The BBC is reporting that russia is responding to reports of ethnic cleansing in South Ossetia.

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## CasualApathy

> You are kidding right? 
> 
> Also since when did we start believing anything from CNN?


Nah, I'm not. 

However, I am also skeptical of a US intervention, as that could easily spiral out of control.

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## Hiki

> Even here in Denmark we have had to scramble our fighters 9 times this year because of Russian bombers flying on the very border of our airspace. This is what they did during the cold war as well.


Hah, it's worse here in Finland. Russian aircraft keep constantly violating our airspace. Every once in a while we have to read it in the news, sometimes fighters are scrambled.

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## CasualApathy

> The BBC is reporting that russia is responding to reports of ethnic cleansing in South Ossetia.


Yes, i saw that. CNN is reporting this as well. It is a very complicated conflict from what i have been able to research in the past few hours, so i will suspend my judgement about who is the biggest aggressor untill i sort it out.

As we speak however, the russian army is crossing into Georgia, not the other way around.

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## Aratus

g.w bush jingoistically saber-rattles against iran,
india and pakistan almost relive the events of 1947
as tibet groans under the weight of the people's army...

what else can go wrong other than the region stalin
came from now being at war with putin's mother russia?

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## CasualApathy

> Hah, it's worse here in Finland. Russian aircraft keep constantly violating our airspace. Every once in a while we have to read it in the news, sometimes fighters are scrambled.


We all know how they resent the whooping they recieved at the hands of the finnish people. 

I have studied your war, and i have unending respect for the spirit of the finnish people, and your willingness to take on those impossible odds to defend your freedom. It was truly David beating Goliath.

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## ItsTime

Russia buzzes Alaska airspace all the time. It never makes it to MSM.

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## acptulsa

> We all know how they resent the whooping they recieved at the hands of the finnish people. 
> 
> I have studied your war, and i have unending respect for the spirit of the finnish people, and your willingness to take on those impossible odds to defend your freedom. It was truly David beating Goliath.


QFT.  I have always found it ironic that Finland fell to the Axis just as the Soviet Union fell _from_ the Axis.  I know it wasn't and isn't funny, but it is almost like they were willing to fight on _any_ side provided they could kick Russia's ass.

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## rpfan2008

> Isn't Holbrooke a Bilderberg attendee?


yupp!

"Holbrooke....we are not your slaves Holbrooke"

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## Dary

> Isn't Holbrooke a Bilderberg attendee?


I'm not sure, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

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## Hiki

> We all know how they resent the whooping they recieved at the hands of the finnish people. 
> 
> I have studied your war, and i have unending respect for the spirit of the finnish people, and your willingness to take on those impossible odds to defend your freedom. It was truly David beating Goliath.


Well thank you 

If I'm proud about something in Finland then it's kicking Russian ass in WW2

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## CasualApathy

Danish Media are now reporting that the US has made the following statement: "We support the territorial integrity of Georgia, and we are calling for an immediate cease fire".

The article also says that a special representative has been sent to Georgia to mediate, and that 127 american military advisors are currently stationed in Georgia.

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## acptulsa

> If I'm proud about something in Finland then it's kicking Russian ass in WW2


And with Moraine Saulniers, Nieuports and Curtis Hawks, no less!  You didn't even have a proper slingshot to take Goliath down with!

Just amazing stuff!

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## youngbuck

Just when you think the stream of bad news couldn't get any bigger, this happens.

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## CasualApathy

CNN is now reporting 4 russian aircraft shot down by Georgian defense forces.

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## ItsTime

> CNN is now reporting 4 russian aircraft shot down by Georgian defense forces.


This conflict is not going to end until Russia storms the capital.

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## CasualApathy

George Bush during Olympic Games opening ceremony:


What is he thinking? (I realise the absurdity of that question )

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## ItsTime

> George Bush during Olympic Games opening ceremony:
> 
> 
> What is he thinking? (I realise the absurdity of that question )


how long he can keep making people think he is stupid... when he has done everything he has wanted as president.

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## acptulsa

> What is he thinking? (I realise the absurdity of that question )


O.K.  As long as it's rhetorical...

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## Hiki

> And with Moraine Saulniers, Nieuports and Curtis Hawks, no less!  You didn't even have a proper slingshot to take Goliath down with!
> 
> Just amazing stuff!


Yeah and what about taking tanks down with Molotov Cocktails and stopping them by sticking pieces of wood between the tracks  The Winter War was a real miracle, the methods we used to defend are really something.

e: The president of Georgia referred to the current situation as the same as in 1939 with Finland, CNN interview here

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## pacelli

In case anyone cares, the only media that I hear covering this IN FULL right now is the Alex Jones show.  www.infowars.com .

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## CasualApathy

Georgia v Russia: By numbers

Georgia: 
Population: 4,6 million
Army: 18.000
Tanks: 128
Fighter Jets: 9

Russia:
Population:	140 million
Army: 400,000
Tanks: 23,000
Fighter jets: 1,736

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## CasualApathy

> In case anyone cares, the only media that I hear covering this IN FULL right now is the Alex Jones show.  www.infowars.com .


AJ to the rescue.

Reporting massive troop-movements into Georgia. 
AJ is pulling news-article after news-article and trying to give the big picture.

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## Conza88

Russian tanks enter South Ossetia 

Footage from the bbc

The WHOLE run down on here pretty much:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7548715.stm

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## Drknows

Its a sad day when we have to get all our real news by lurking in internet forums. 

The MSN is too busy with Mccain and Obama. You're a celeb NO you're a celeb No you want to fill tires with air and i want to drill NO drilling is pointless.

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## Hiki

> Georgia v Russia: By numbers
> 
> Georgia: 
> Population: 4,6 million
> Army: 18.000
> Tanks: 128
> Fighter Jets: 9
> 
> Russia:
> ...


This reminds me again of:

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## acptulsa

> 


I hope the Georgians know enough about this to be properly inspired.

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## CasualApathy

> This reminds me again of:


I agree, be very very afraid!
Finland is the most awesome fighting force in the galaxy

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## IRO-bot

Isn't Georgia that country where they love america?  Bush visited recently and you would have thought he was JFK in america?  I heard when Clinton was in office the most popular baby names were Hillary and William.  Now I hear they are George and (brain fart, whatever his wifes name is).

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## CasualApathy

> I hope the Georgians know enough about this to be properly inspired.


Well, Finland is not easy territory. Georgia is going to be overrun. Besides, only the Finnish have the guts to charge and disable a tank using only a plank of wood! If i remember correctly, The Soviets sent massive (10 kilometer long) columns of armor and troops marching into finland along narrow forest roads. The finnish would then take out the tank in the front and the tank in the back leaving the armor stranded, and they would then use their skis (hence superior mobility) to carry out hit and run attacks, picking off the stranded russian troops one by one.

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## Conza88

> Isn't Georgia that country where they love america?  Bush visited recently and you would have thought he was JFK in america?  I heard when Clinton was in office the most popular baby names were Hillary and William.  Now I hear they are George and (brain fart, whatever his wifes name is).


Yeah and he was hugging the crowd etc... up nice and personal. The _SS_ weren't worried.. apparently the biggest threat was death by kindness. What's wrong with themm...

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## Conza88

> Well, Finland is not easy territory. Georgia is going to be overrun. Besides, only the Finnish have the guts to charge and disable a tank using only a plank of wood! If i remember correctly, The Soviets sent massive (10 kilometer long) columns of armor and troops marching into finland along narrow forest roads. The finnish would then take out the tank in the front and the tank in the back leaving the armor stranded, and they would then use their skis (hence superior mobility) to carry out hit and run attacks, picking off the stranded russian troops one by one.


I kind of want to see someone stupid enough to try invade Switzerland... lol

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## IRO-bot

> Yeah and he was hugging the crowd etc... up nice and personal. The _SS_ weren't worried.. apparently the biggest threat was death by kindness. What's wrong with themm...


Didn't someone steal his watch!?!?!

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## Hiki

> Well, Finland is not easy territory. Georgia is going to be overrun. Besides, only the Finnish have the guts to charge and disable a tank using only a plank of wood! If i remember correctly, The Soviets sent massive (10 kilometer long) columns of armor and troops marching into finland along narrow forest roads. The finnish would then take out the tank in the front and the tank in the back leaving the armor stranded, and they would then use their skis (hence superior mobility) to carry out hit and run attacks, picking off the stranded russian troops one by one.


Yeah, this was the famous "motti"-tactic we used. If you read up on the Battle of Raatteentie, you'll find out that we used this very tactic there. Take out the front and rear and then cut up the column into smaller sections.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Raate_road

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## Cowlesy

This could turn into a big mess if Russia pushes past South Ossetia.

And in all fairness, Alex Jones is doing a great job aggregating the reports and getting it out on the air.

Right now on CNN there is a report about "Bollywood" on --- good job CNN.

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## ItsTime

> This could turn into a big mess if Russia pushes past South Ossetia.
> 
> And in all fairness, Alex Jones is doing a great job aggregating the reports and getting it out on the air.
> 
> Right now on CNN there is a report about "Bollywood" on --- good job CNN.


ok I give in, I just tuned into AJ

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## New York For Paul

More Youtubes.

America Reports.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7RG1gs-1Qk

Fox News
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGzLu7leLuc

So Russia almost killed 100 american military advisors by bombing the base that they were based at.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzBKlEgDYKE

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## yongrel

Today, Ossetia. Tomorrow, the world.

$#@!.

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## angelatc

> Nah, I'm not. 
> 
> However, I am also skeptical of a US intervention, as that could easily spiral out of control.


War with Russia spiral out onf control? Ya think?

Russia has nuclear weapons, so we're far more likely to actually talk to them before dropping bombs.

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## angelatc

> Well, Finland is not easy territory. Georgia is going to be overrun. Besides, only the Finnish have the guts to charge and disable a tank using only a plank of wood! If i remember correctly, The Soviets sent massive (10 kilometer long) columns of armor and troops marching into finland along narrow forest roads. The finnish would then take out the tank in the front and the tank in the back leaving the armor stranded, and they would then use their skis (hence superior mobility) to carry out hit and run attacks, picking off the stranded russian troops one by one.


I seem to recall that Afghanistan also gave them fits.

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## ItsTime

there are 1000s of US troops in Georgia right now

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## acptulsa

> I seem to recall that Afghanistan also gave them fits.


Also very tough terrain.  I'm afraid I don't know much about the geography of Georgia--at least, not the Georgia in question.

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## CasualApathy

> War with Russia spiral out onf control? Ya think?
> 
> Russia has nuclear weapons, so we're far more likely to actually talk to them before dropping bombs.


I was never suggesting war with Russia, however it is possible that the US/NATO will establish a buffer-zone once Russia has occupied South Ossetia. This would be very dangerous as well.

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## priest_of_syrinx

It's kind of odd how oil, gold, and silver are all down today...

And Alex Jones is saying that he thinks they're up.

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## CasualApathy

> It's kind of odd how oil, gold, and silver are all down today...
> 
> And Alex Jones is saying that he thinks they're up.


Yes, that is a bit strange. 

Perhaps the world simply doesn't care about Georgia...

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## ItsTime

> Yes, that is a bit strange. 
> 
> Perhaps the world simply doesn't care about Georgia...


waiting for the US to act before it goes through the roof

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## acptulsa

> It's kind of odd how oil, gold, and silver are all down today...
> 
> And Alex Jones is saying that he thinks they're up.


As we've noted, we're ahead of the curve on getting--and digesting--this news.

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## Cowlesy

Market probably sees this is irrelevant until there is a disruption to the energy pipelines (I remember reading somewhere there are oil pipelines, but they go through Georgia proper)

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## Andrew-Austin

Anyone have a link to where I could listen to Alex's show... Or do I need to subscribe..

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## Cowlesy

> Anyone have a link to where I could listen to Alex's show... Or do I need to subscribe..


I can't remember where I got it  -- it has just been in my iTunes for a while -- now he's taking callers and talking about typical whacky-stuff.

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## priest_of_syrinx

> Anyone have a link to where I could listen to Alex's show... Or do I need to subscribe..


http://www.infowars.com/listen.html
Like Cowlesy said, what they're talking about isn't really relevant right now.

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## ItsTime

> http://www.infowars.com/listen.html
> Like Cowlesy said, what they're talking about isn't really relevant right now.


its back on subject now

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## angelatc

http://www.interfax.com/ - not much detail, but lots of updates.

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## Drknows

The more i think about this do you think it has something to do with that missile defense shield we planned to put up? And Georgia is our alley plus they have troops in Iraq. 

Maybe this is a strategic move by them so they have one less problem to deal with when confronting us .

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## acptulsa

> The more i think about this do you think it has something to do with that missile defense shield we planned to put up? And Georgia is our alley plus they have troops in Iraq. 
> 
> Maybe this is a strategic move by them so they have one less problem to deal with when confronting us .


That is part of the patchwork behind this, yes--but right at the heart of it is oil, natural gas and pipelines--and Russian pride.

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## Cowlesy

Very confusing.  Paul Craig Roberts is saying that it was Georgia, our ally,  made the initial attack against the separatists in South Ossetia.  

Just now on CNN, they have statements from Obama and McCain condemning Russia's attack.

*facepalm*

----------


## yongrel

> Very confusing.  Paul Craig Roberts is saying that it was Georgia, our ally,  made the initial attack against the separatists in South Ossetia.  
> 
> Just now on CNN, they have statements from Obama and McCain condemning Russia's attack.
> 
> *facepalm*


This is gonna be a frustrating news cycle.

----------


## rpfan2008

> http://www.interfax.com/ - not much detail, but lots of updates.


Interfax is very govt. controlled, they are quite likely to potray russians as in _'all your base are belongs to us'_ mode. Nonetheless they are at ground zero.

----------


## acptulsa

Yes, the AP article I found on Yahoo initially paints it as Georgia's aggression, and mentions Georgia's denial of this as an afterthought:

DZHAVA, Georgia - Russia sent columns of tanks and reportedly bombed Georgian air bases Friday after Georgia launched a major military offensive Friday to retake the breakaway province of South Ossetia, threatening to ignite a broader conflict. 

Hundreds of civilians were reported dead in the worst outbreak of hostilities since the province won defacto independence in a war against Georgia that ended in 1992. Witnesses said the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali was devastated.

"I saw bodies lying on the streets, around ruined buildings, in cars," said Lyudmila Ostayeva, 50, who had fled with her family to Dzhava, a village near the border with Russia. "It's impossible to count them now. There is hardly a single building left undamaged."

The fighting broke out as much of the world's attention was focused on the start of the Olympic Games and many leaders, including Russia's Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and President Bush, were in Beijing.

The timing suggests Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili may have been counting on surprise to fulfill his longtime pledge to wrest back control of South Ossetia  a key to his hold on power.

Saakashvili agreed the timing was not coincidental, but accused Russia of being the aggressor. "Most decision makers have gone for the holidays," he said in an interview with CNN. "Brilliant moment to attack a small country."

Diplomats called for another emergency session of the United Nations Security Council, its second since early Friday morning seeking to prevent an all-out war.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice had spoken to the parties involved and was working to end the fighting, State Department spokesman Gonzalo Gallegos told reporters.

Georgia, a staunch U.S. ally, has about 2,000 troops in Iraq, making it the third-largest contributor to coalition forces after the U.S. and Britain. But Saakashvili told CNN that the troops would be called home Saturday in the face of the South Ossetia fighting.

Georgia, which borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia, was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the breakup of the Soviet Union. Georgia has angered Russia by seeking NATO membership  a bid Moscow regards as part of a Western effort to weaken its influence in the region.

The leader of South Ossetia's rebel government, Eduard Kokoity, said about 1,400 people were killed in the onslaught, the Interfax news agency reported. The toll could not be independently confirmed.

Ten Russian peacekeepers were killed and 30 wounded when their barracks were hit in Georgian shelling, said Russian Ground Forces spokesman Col. Igor Konashenkov. Russia has soldiers in South Ossetia as peacekeeping forces but Georgia alleges they back the separatists.

Georgia's Foreign Ministry accused Russian aircraft of bombing two military air bases inside Georgia, inflicting some casualties and destroying several military aircraft. Rustavi 2 television said four people were killed and five wounded at the Marneuli air base.

Russia's Defense Ministry said it was sending reinforcements for its peacekeepers, and Russian state television and Georgian officials reported a convoy of tanks had crossed the border. The convoy was expected to reach the provincial capital, Tskhinvali, by evening, Channel One television said.

Georgian State Minister for Reintegration Temur Yakobashvili said government troops were now in full control of Tskhinvali, but the RIA-Novosti news agency quoted Konashenkov as saying late Friday that Russian tanks were firing on Georgian positions in the city.

"We are facing Russian aggression," said Georgia's Security Council chief Kakha Lomaya. "They have sent in their troops and weapons and they are bombing our towns."

Putin has warned that the Georgian attack will draw retaliation and the Defense Ministry pledged to protect South Ossetians, most of whom have Russian citizenship.

Chairing a session of his Security Council in the Kremlin, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev also vowed that Moscow will protect Russian citizens. 

"In accordance with the constitution and federal law, I, as president of Russia, am obliged to protect lives and dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are located," Medvedev said, according to Russian news reports. "We won't allow the death of our compatriots go unpunished." 

On Friday, an AP reporter saw tanks and other heavy weapons concentrating on the Russian side of the border with South Ossetia  supporting the reports of an incursion. Some villagers were fleeing into Russia. 

"I saw them (the Georgians) shelling my village," said Maria, who gave only her first name. She said she and other villagers spent the night in a field and then fled toward the Russian border as the fighting escalated. 

Yakobashvili said Georgian forces had shot down four Russian combat planes over Georgian territory but gave no details. Russia's Defense Ministry denied an earlier Georgia report about one Russian plane downed and had no immediate comment on the latest claim. 

Yakobashvili said that one Russian plane had dropped a bomb on the Vaziani military base near the Georgian capital, but no one was hurt. 

More than 1,000 U.S. Marines and soldiers were at the base last month to teach combat skills to Georgian troops. Georgia has about 2,000 troops in Iraq, making it the third-largest contributor to coalition forces after the U.S. and Britain. 

South Ossetia officials said Georgia attacked with aircraft, armor and heavy artillery. Georgian troops fired missiles at Tskhinvali, an official said, and many buildings were on fire. 

Georgia's president said Russian aircraft bombed several Georgian villages and other civilian facilities. 

A senior Russian diplomat in charge of the South Ossetian conflict, Yuri Popov, dismissed the Georgian claims of Russian bombings as misinformation, the RIA-Novosti news agency reported. 

Russia's Defense Ministry denounced the Georgian attack as a "dirty adventure." "Blood shed in South Ossetia will weigh on their conscience," the ministry said in a statement posted on its Web site. 

Saakashvili long has pledged to restore Tbilisi's rule over South Ossetia and another breakaway province, Abkhazia. Both regions have run their own affairs without international recognition since splitting from Georgia in the early 1990s and built up ties with Moscow. 

Relations between Georgia and Russia worsened notably this year as Georgia pushed to join NATO and Russia dispatched additional peacekeeper forces to Abkhazia. 

The Georgian attack came just hours after Saakashvili announced a unilateral cease-fire in a television broadcast late Thursday in which he also urged South Ossetian separatist leaders to enter talks on resolving the conflict. 

Georgian officials later blamed South Ossetian separatists for thwarting the cease-fire by shelling Georgian villages in the area.

----------


## Drknows

> That is part of the patchwork behind this, yes--but right at the heart of it is oil, natural gas and pipelines--and Russian pride.


Yes but Russia has more Natural Gas, Coal and is the second biggest Oil producer. I dont think energy is a concern to them. Also they export more energy than they use.

Pride and Power i think have more to do with this. That and our foreign policy.

----------


## acptulsa

> Yes but Russia has more Natural Gas, Coal and is the second biggest Oil producer. I dont think energy is a concern to them. Also they export more energy than they use.


The pipelines in particular are a very, very big concern to them.  They very much want to pwn all the routes energy takes from Asia to Europe if they can.  Leave it to former Soviets to work toward monopoly...

----------


## JosephTheLibertarian

"State Department spokesman Gonzalo Gallegos also said the United States was sending an envoy to the region "to engage with the parties in the conflict."

lol

----------


## ItsTime

cnn just reported that there are only 200 something American "army personal"  in Georgia when last month there was 1000s.

----------


## pacelli

> Isn't Georgia that country where they love america?  Bush visited recently and you would have thought he was JFK in america?  I heard when Clinton was in office the most popular baby names were Hillary and William.  Now I hear they are George and (brain fart, whatever his wifes name is).


Why yes, they love the US.  Why is that?  

*Only a month ago, the US was running a drill in Georgia called "Operation Immediate Response 2008":*




> VAZIANI, Georgia (Reuters) - One thousand U.S. troops began a military training exercise in Georgia on Tuesday against a backdrop of growing friction between Georgia and neighboring Russia.
> 
> Officials said the exercise, called "Immediate Response 2008", had been planned for months and was not linked to a stand-off between Moscow and Tbilisi over two Russian-backed separatists regions of Georgia.


http://uk.reuters.com/article/burnin...56589920080715

----------


## rpfan2008

It's a cease-fire now http://www.russiatoday.ru/news/news/28621

It was Georgia testing Russian's response to such an act. Ossetia is not the real issue, apart from the 'Russian brotherhood'. It's >>Abkhazia << If Gerogia can take back Abkhazia it will reduce Russia's access (claim) to the Black Sea. This is what Russians are eying to get : *Black sea offshore oil*.

----------


## brandon

//

----------


## Cowlesy

> Why yes, they love the US.  Why is that?  
> 
> *Only a month ago, the US was running a drill in Georgia called "Operation Immediate Response 2008":*
> 
> 
> 
> http://uk.reuters.com/article/burnin...56589920080715


I am not a conspiracy dude but gee whiz, this seems all too way coincidental ya know?  I am sure they said our troops were there to "help fight al-qaeda".

----------


## ItsTime

> I am not a conspiracy dude but gee whiz, this seems all too way coincidental ya know?  I am sure they said our troops were there to "help fight al-qaeda".


I agree with you here. It just seems to convenient

----------


## Kludge

Did anyone else watch the video released by the leader of Georgia which basically accused Russia of attacking them because they were free and prosperous only to soon after request the US help them based on principle?

----------


## ItsTime

> Did anyone else watch the video released by the leader of Georgia which basically accused Russia of attacking them because they were free and prosperous only to soon after request the US help them based on principle?


Yes. It reminded me of a bush speech.

----------


## JosephTheLibertarian

> Did anyone else watch the video released by the leader of Georgia which basically accused Russia of attacking them because they were free and prosperous only to soon after request the US help them based on principle?


Well, why did Russia invade? Imperialists!

----------


## richardfortherepublic

Why do we have to put ourselves in the position of world police?

Then when something bad happens in a country that has no strategic advantages to us, we do nothing.... Further perpetuating our image of the evil empire.

----------


## CasualApathy

The danish Foreign Minister has just made the following statements:

"The situation in Georgia is totally unacceptable." 
"The use of force is unacceptable, and this puts the entire region in grave danger. The situation is very, very dangerous."
However, he stopped short of condemning the russian attack.

----------


## pacelli

*Streaming Russian TV in English:*

http://streaming.visionip.tv/Russia_Today

----------


## pacelli

Markets Tumble on War Fears (in Russia):




> Markets Tumble on War Fears
> 08 August 2008
> 
> Worries over Russia's involvement in the escalating conflict in South Ossetia sent Moscow stock markets tumbling Friday.
> 
> The benchmark RTS Index dropped 6.5 percent to 1723.32 points, while the ruble-denominated MICEX fell 4.9 percent to 1,365.26 points, as of 5:20 p.m.
> 
> The worst-hit Russian stock was Inter RAO, a power generator with plants in Georgia, which lost one-quarter of its value in Moscow trading Friday after Georgia said Russian warplanes bombed two Georgian towns.
> 
> ...


http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/600/42/369684.htm

----------


## Kludge

What's your take on the Wall St. rally on this news, Cowlesy?

Were the events overshadowed by something or are people excited by Russian markets plummeting, renewed threats on the international oil supply and increased potential for widespread total war?

----------


## CasualApathy

> *Streaming Russian TV in English:*
> 
> http://streaming.visionip.tv/Russia_Today


They sure have some interesting graphics, like the huge "WAR IS ON" under the anchorperson. Oh yea, IT'S ON baby! ...

----------


## Cowlesy

> What's your take on the Wall St. rally on this news, Cowlesy?
> 
> Were the events overshadowed by something or are people excited by Russian markets plummeting, renewed threats on the international oil supply and increased potential for widespread total war?


I think it is pretty much being ignored right now.

If the conflict stays in this little break-off province (South Ossetia),  I don't think anyone is going to care.  If Russia full-on invades Georgia and goes for the capital to overthrow the government, that could really change the game.  Judging by the market movements, it does not seem like this is in the cards (though I am purely speculating).

----------


## georgiaboy

btw, great thread, all - heck, no need to tune in to MSM, just check RPF for the latest really worthwhile news, updates, along with detailed analysis & historical perspectives!!

what a learned group.

----------


## CasualApathy

> btw, great thread, all - heck, no need to tune in to MSM, just check RPF for the latest really worthwhile news, updates, along with detailed analysis & historical perspectives!!
> 
> what a learned group.


We Rock

----------


## V-rod

Once Putin takes over Georgia, they won't be whistling "Dixie" anymore

----------


## Ninja Homer

I just found out about this, and haven't seen it in the news at all.  But Clay Aitkin had a boy.  John Edwards had an affair.  More political crap about Obama, McCain, and Clinton.  Ooh, finally something about it on CNN.

----------


## TER

> I just found out about this, and haven't seen it in the news at all.  But Clay Aitkin had a boy.  John Edwards had an affair.  More political crap about Obama, McCain, and Clinton.  Ooh, finally something about it on CNN.


Wow.  The Olympics used to be about peace.  Now, its a chance to make sneak attacks and reveal skeletons in the closet.

----------


## Cowlesy

huck finn/tom sawyer/etc talk continues here:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=149587

----------


## pacelli

I just heard this on the AJ show and cross-checked it.  I'm amazed.  So the US and the Israeli's are backing the Georgians!?




> Georgian tanks and infantry, aided by Israeli military advisers, captured the capital of breakaway South Ossetia, Tskhinvali, early Friday, Aug. 8, bringing the Georgian-Russian conflict over the province to a military climax.
> 
> Russian prime minister Vladimir Putin threatened a “military response.”


http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1358

----------


## CasualApathy

Jews are wonderful people, their government is pretty lousy though. I found this interesting: 

*Israeli Military Advisers Aid Georgia*

DEBKAfile
August 8, 2008

Georgian tanks and infantry, aided by Israeli military advisers, captured the capital of breakaway South Ossetia, Tskhinvali, early Friday, Aug. 8, bringing the Georgian-Russian conflict over the province to a military climax.

Russian prime minister Vladimir Putin threatened a “military response.”

Former Soviet Georgia called up its military reserves after Russian warplanes bombed its new positions in the renegade province.

In Moscow’s first response to the fall of Tskhinvali, president Dimitry Medvedev ordered the Russian army to prepare for a national emergency after calling the UN Security Council into emergency session early Friday.

Reinforcements were rushed to the Russian “peacekeeping force” present in the region to support the separatists.

Georgian tanks entered the capital after heavy overnight heavy aerial strikes, in which dozens of people were killed.

Lado Gurgenidze, Georgia’s prime minister, said on Friday that Georgia will continue its military operation in South Ossetia until a “durable peace” is reached. “As soon as a durable peace takes hold we need to move forward with dialogue and peaceful negotiations.”

DEBKAfile’s geopolitical experts note that on the surface level, the Russians are backing the separatists of S. Ossetia and neighboring Abkhazia as payback for the strengthening of American influence in tiny Georgia and its 4.5 million inhabitants. However, more immediately, the conflict has been sparked by the race for control over the pipelines carrying oil and gas out of the Caspian region.




The Russians may just bear with the pro-US Georgian president Mikhail Saakashvili’s ambition to bring his country into NATO. But they draw a heavy line against his plans and those of Western oil companies, including Israeli firms, to route the oil routes from Azerbaijan and the gas lines from Turkmenistan, which transit Georgia, through Turkey instead of hooking them up to Russian pipelines.

Saakashvili need only back away from this plan for Moscow to ditch the two provinces’ revolt against Tbilisi. As long as he sticks to his guns, South Ossetia and Abkhazia will wage separatist wars.

DEBKAfile discloses Israel’s interest in the conflict from its exclusive military sources:

Jerusalem owns a strong interest in Caspian oil and gas pipelines reach the Turkish terminal port of Ceyhan, rather than the Russian network. Intense negotiations are afoot between Israel Turkey, Georgia, Turkmenistan and Azarbaijan for pipelines to reach Turkey and thence to Israel’s oil terminal at Ashkelon and on to its Red Sea port of Eilat. From there, supertankers can carry the gas and oil to the Far East through the Indian Ocean.

Aware of Moscow’s sensitivity on the oil question, Israel offered Russia a stake in the project but was rejected.

Last year, the Georgian president commissioned from private Israeli security firms several hundred military advisers, estimated at up to 1,000, to train the Georgian armed forces in commando, air, sea, armored and artillery combat tactics. They also offer instruction on military intelligence and security for the central regime. Tbilisi also purchased weapons, intelligence and electronic warfare systems from Israel.

These advisers were undoubtedly deeply involved in the Georgian army’s preparations to conquer the South Ossetian capital Friday.

In recent weeks, Moscow has repeatedly demanded that Jerusalem halt its military assistance to Georgia, finally threatening a crisis in bilateral relations. Israel responded by saying that the only assistance rendered Tbilisi was “defensive.”

This has not gone down well in the Kremlin. Therefore, as the military crisis intensifies in South Ossetia, Moscow may be expected to punish Israel for its intervention

----------


## orafi

> we are not the policeman of the world.


yeeh we duh global 5-0 baby

----------


## Cowlesy

> I just heard this on the AJ show and cross-checked it.  I'm amazed.  So the US and the Israeli's are backing the Georgians!?
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1358


Man I don't know.  Those people can't even fight off hezbollah guerillas without a huge problem.  I seriously doubt they are in freakin' Georgia, but who knows.  I saw that debka.com early today and I am very, very skeptical.

----------


## CasualApathy

Well gee...

Breaking News: One-time presidential hopeful John Edwards admits to an extramarital affair in an interview with ABC News, the network reports.

http://edition.cnn.com/

----------


## Kludge

> Well gee...
> 
> Breaking News: One-time presidential hopeful John Edwards admits to an extramarital affair in an interview with ABC News, the network reports.
> 
> http://edition.cnn.com/



I SO TOLD YOU GUYS!


Olympics = Reptilian distraction! You lot ought to listen to me more.

----------


## CasualApathy

> I SO TOLD YOU GUYS!
> 
> 
> Olympics = Reptilian distraction! You lot ought to listen to me more.


Damn, be silent!

*Sends lizardman to eat and replace Kludge*

----------


## Drknows

> Well gee...
> 
> Breaking News: One-time presidential hopeful John Edwards admits to an extramarital affair in an interview with ABC News, the network reports.
> 
> http://edition.cnn.com/


$#@! we don't have time for John Edwards CNN. Georgia is trying to get us to airlift their 2,000 troops back from Iraq ASAP. They're trying to drag us into this conflict.

----------


## The One

> Well gee...
> 
> Breaking News: One-time presidential hopeful John Edwards admits to an extramarital affair in an interview with ABC News, the network reports.
> 
> http://edition.cnn.com/


I always figured if John Edwards had an extramarital affair it would be with a dude.

----------


## acptulsa

> $#@! we don't have time for John Edwards CNN. Georgia is trying to get us to airlift their 2,000 troops back from Iraq ASAP. They're trying to drag us into this conflict.


The fact that they didn't recall them sooner either proves that this isn't their doing or that they're pretty damned smart...

----------


## CasualApathy

> The fact that they didn't recall them sooner either proves that this isn't their doing or that they're pretty damned smart...


I am starting to think that Georgia started this whole thing gambling that the Russians wouldn't respond.

----------


## The One

> I am starting to think that Georgia started this whole thing gambling that the Russians wouldn't respond.


Oops.

----------


## Drknows

> The fact that they didn't recall them sooner either proves that this isn't their doing or that they're pretty damned smart...


yeah i wonder who will fire the first shot? 

check this out.



> Saakashvili said the conflict 'is not about Georgia anymore. It's about America, its values.
> 'I thought that America stands up for those freedom-loving nations and supports them.
> 'That's what America is all about. That's why we look with hope at every American.'



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1042816/1-400-civilians-dead-Russia-goes-war-Georgia-South-Ossetia.html


I don't think that has been reported here yet.

----------


## Carole

All I can say is:

----------


## acptulsa

"Saakashvili said the conflict 'is not about Georgia anymore. It's about America, its values.
'I thought that America stands up for those freedom-loving nations and supports them.
'That's what America is all about. That's why we look with hope at every American.' "



I don't expect coverage of this any time soon.  What American wants to revel in our b.s. being called?

----------


## Scofield

Wait, so how is America involved in this?

It'd be nice if the news would actually inform me.

----------


## pacelli

> Wait, so how is America involved in this?
> 
> It'd be nice if the news would actually inform me.


It just proves that the news media does not cover the news.  

http://uk.reuters.com/article/burnin...56589920080715

----------


## armstrong

so georgia takes its troops home from irag...so we need more troops in irag? hmmm

----------


## armstrong

this concerns me more each day,,,My son is on the USS shoup a destroyer over somewhere I am not allowed to know.....

----------


## Cowlesy

I can't believe CNN right now, all this Edwards BS ---- CNN even speculating that Edwards pulled this today so that the Olympics would overshadow it

Unfreakingbelievable.

----------


## Drknows

> Wait, so how is America involved in this?
> 
> It'd be nice if the news would actually inform me.


Yeah what Pac said before me.

and this one hits the nail on hits head. The last paragraph says it all. Nato! 
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle4488503.ece
If Georgia was to get into Nato that means We the US and its other members would be obligated to protect them.

----------


## armstrong

if you watch martha stewart you can learn to make pies...hehe

----------


## armstrong

so does anybody know where the USS ABE Linclon is ?  the USS shoup is acompanying her and should be somewhere close?

----------


## Cowlesy

http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/int..._south_ossetia

Link above is what Stratfor is saying ---- not an analysis, but some points on what is going on.




> The most important reaction will not be in the United States or Western Europe. It is the reaction in the former Soviet states that matters most right now. That is the real audience for this. Watch the reaction of Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Nagorno-Karabakh and the Balts. How will Russia’s moves affect them psychologically?
> 
> The Russians hold a trump card with the Americans: Iran. They can flood Iran with weapons at will. The main U.S. counter is in Ukraine and Central Asia, but is not nearly as painful.
> 
> Tactically, there is only one issue: Will the Russians attack Georgia on the ground? If they are going to, the Russians have likely made that decision days ago.
> 
> *Focus on whether Russia invades Georgia proper. Then watch the former Soviet states. The United States and Germany are of secondary interest at this point.*

----------


## Scofield

> so does anybody know where the USS ABE Linclon is ?  the USS shoup is acompanying her and should be somewhere close?


http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7011874353

Iran?

----------


## armstrong

thanxs

----------


## Drknows

> http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/int..._south_ossetia
> 
> Link above is what Stratfor is saying ---- not an analysis, but some points on what is going on.


i agree i think we all know how this is going to play out. we are just going to sit back and let russia have their way with them.

----------


## pacelli

> I can't believe CNN right now, all this Edwards BS ---- CNN even speculating that Edwards pulled this today so that the Olympics would overshadow it
> 
> Unfreakingbelievable.


Let's not forget that Edwards also attended bilderberg. I know you aren't much on conspiracies, but is it a coincidence that an old story about Edwards (previously reported on) is finally admitted today, just in time for the evening news?  What right-wing media network wouldn't like to play the Edwards story up for the next few weeks?

----------


## TER

> i agree i think we all know how this is going to play out. we are just going to sit back and let russia have their way with them.


My guess, which is purely speculation, is that the US will sit idly by for a return favor from Russia when bombs start dropping on Iran. I believe the US and Russia are much more in cahoots than they publicly display.

----------


## ItsTime

our MSM makes me think that we will not get involved. because if we were going to get involved the MSM would be beating the war drum.

----------


## Doktor_Jeep

Well, that's one big fat rooster coming home.

Yet another reason for the "Don't Blam me, I voted for Ron Paul" movement. I will be saying that to crying McCainiacs and Obamaniacs as they bury their kids.

----------


## Ninja Homer

> so does anybody know where the USS ABE Linclon is ?  the USS shoup is acompanying her and should be somewhere close?


Massive US Naval Armada Heads For Iran:
http://europebusines.blogspot.com/20...-for-iran.html

----------


## Sarge

As of four days ago it appears the North Arabian Sea,

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/4644135a11.html

I hope this helps and wish your son the best. 

At least you might now know where he might be located, if this is correct.

----------


## acroso

where does it say putin has decalred war..?

----------


## Meatwasp

The Georgians were communists and Bolsheviks under Stalin.  Why should we go protect them.

----------


## Drknows

> My guess, which is purely speculation, is that the US will sit idly by for a return favor from Russia when bombs start dropping on Iran. I believe the US and Russia are much more in cahoots than they publicly display.


Nothing would surprise me anymore. But i think deep down russia  hates us with a passion. I would never trust them.

Georgia is much like Israel.  We get involved in their foreign policy and piss off their neighbors. The funny thing is if this was Israel we would be backing them up no questions asked. 

We will come out looking like $#@!s. Because we were pushing for them to get into NATO. I can already see it now. "We begged for help and our only friend turned his back on us." The reports here said they didn't ask for help but if you read the news overseas they paint a diffrent picture

----------


## Cowlesy

Hmmm... a little Putin/Fruity-Shirt-wearer briefing at the Olympics huh....

Nothing to see here...move along.

----------


## Andrew-Austin

Who attacked first?

----------


## yongrel



----------


## yongrel

> Who attacked first?


Eastasia

----------


## Cowlesy

> Who attacked first?


From the real news so far, Georgian troops attacked Separatists in South Ossetia, and Russia retaliated to defend the Separatists.

McCain/Obama have called for Russia to cease attacks though, even though they weren't the original aggressors.

----------


## Cowlesy

> Hmmm... a little Putin/Fruity-Shirt-wearer briefing at the Olympics huh....
> 
> Nothing to see here...move along.


Actually...I think the Fruity-Shirt guy is a translator.

----------


## yongrel

> From the real news so far, Georgian troops attacked Separatists in South Ossetia, and Russia retaliated to defend the Separatists.
> 
> McCain/Obama have called for Russia to cease attacks though, even though they weren't the original aggressors.


This whole thing gives me a headache. Why would Georgia attack when they were so close to securing the protection of NATO?

----------


## Captain America

We should have nothing to do with this.

----------


## Cowlesy

> This whole thing gives me a headache. Why would Georgia attack when they were so close to securing the protection of NATO?


Did you hear former Secretary of Defense Cohen too?

He brought up that exact point.

----------


## NEPA_Revolution

I wonder what Alex Jones has to say about this........

----------


## yongrel

> Did you hear former Secretary of Defense Cohen too?
> 
> He brought up that exact point.


I don't follow the news cycle, so I haven't heard anything from anyone.

All I know is that this whole thing is mind-boggling. It makes no goddamned sense.

----------


## Fox McCloud

> I don't follow the news cycle, so I haven't heard anything from anyone.
> 
> All I know is that this whole thing is mind-boggling. It makes no goddamned sense.


especially if you don't subscribe to the conspiratorial view of history.

----------


## PatriotOne

> Yea, whats with that? It is getting coverage online as the top story for all the news sites, but no tv stations are covering it.


Because the Pentagon hasn't released their scripts to the bobbleheads that supposedly report the news in an unbiased manner.

----------


## TER

> especially if you don't subscribe to the conspiratorial view of history.


Someone got duped, and I think it was the president of Georgia, courtesy of our beloved President George Dubya.

----------


## PatriotOne

> I don't follow the news cycle, so I haven't heard anything from anyone.
> 
> All I know is that this whole thing is mind-boggling. It makes no goddamned sense.


Don't worry Yongrel, Bush and Co. will tell you what happened and then you can be assured of the truth.

----------


## Kyoon

Tbilisi, Georgia ... *one of only two cities* (1) to have cheered the antichrist after the sheeple accepted the mark.

Where Illuminati agent Saakashvili could no longer control the terror state that had been upscaled to nazi levels after the 2007 "elections" farce.
So the desperate illuminati were forced to launch the assault to South Ossetia before the fall of their agent. The battle of Georgia, one of the key battles of Armageddon. (2)
Yet they still had enough time to pick up the right symbolical date (3) to murder thousands of civilians in South Ossetia.

*Notes*

1) As usual, End Times Prophet was the only one to register the HORRIBLE TRUTH into words:

a) "HORRIBLE TRUTH about the only TWO cities on Earth that cheered LAST antichrist after 666", June 2007
http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php?t=198051

b) From article "Cowardice: the utter limits of brainwashed humans", October 2005:
"Before the final showdown, it's important to review this picture taken in Georgia
The proof that it wasn't only fear that caused the slaughter of the lambs.
At least one time there was a crowd cheering nuclear Hitler, before the buttons were pressed
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...s+his+crowd%22
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=51690

c) Referenced Picture in "Nuclear Hitler finally gets his crowd of 50,000 - in the Caucasus Mountains", article from October 2005
http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=20976

(2) http://armageddon-now.blogspot.com/

(3) The night before the opening of the Olympics, the time when ancient greeks stopped all combats.

----------


## yongrel

> Tbilisi, Georgia ... *one of only two cities* (1) to have cheered the antichrist after the sheeple accepted the mark.
> 
> Where Illuminati agent Saakashvili could no longer control the terror state that had been upscaled to nazi levels after the 2007 "elections" farce.
> So the desperate illuminati were forced to launch the assault to South Ossetia before the fall of their agent. The battle of Georgia, one of the key battles of Armageddon. (2)
> Yet they still had enough time to pick up the right symbolical date (3) to murder thousands of civilians in South Ossetia.
> 
> *Notes*
> 
> 1) As usual, End Times Prophet was the only one to register the HORRIBLE TRUTH into words:
> ...

----------


## The_Orlonater

> Well thank you 
> 
> If I'm proud about something in Finland then it's kicking Russian ass in WW2


Yeah, I'm polish we don't like em that much either, but times change.

----------


## Monolithic

> Bombs rocked Tbilisi early Saturday morning as the fight between Georgia and Russia over a breakaway region intensified and moved into the Georgian capital.
> 
> Government buildings, including the Parliament, were evacuated when the bombs fell.
> 
> Heavy casualties have reported on both sides since Russian forces moved Friday into South Ossetia, a pro-Russian autonomous region of Georgia.
> 
> Russian bombers were targeting Georgia's economic infrastructure, National Security Council secretary Alexander Lomaia said, including the country's largest Black Sea port, Poti, and the main road connecting the southern part of Georgia with the east and the airport.
> 
> Georgian television reported that the port had been destroyed.
> ...


$#@! just got real

----------


## Vet_from_cali

> It just proves that the news media does not cover the news.  
> 
> http://uk.reuters.com/article/burnin...56589920080715


anyone know if that unit pulled out before everything happened. i know it says a 2 week exercise, but sometimes units stay afterwards for a short period. this article isn't even a month old

----------


## Fox McCloud

> $#@! just got real


where's the source on that? I'd like to post that elsewhere.

----------


## haaaylee

> where's the source on that? I'd like to post that elsewhere.



http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe...ion=cnn_latest

----------


## PatriotOne

> We should have nothing to do with this.


Well it just so happens, coincidently of course:

*Evidence of U.S. Military Presence in Georgia*

Prison Planet.com
Friday, August 8, 2008

http://www.prisonplanet.com/evidence...n-georgia.html

Georgia, US start military exercises despite tensions with Russia

CNews
July 15, 2008

TBILISI, Georgia (AP) — Georgian and U.S. troops started a joint military exercise Tuesday amid growing tensions between the ex-Soviet republic and Russia, a Georgian defense ministry official said.

Read article

Russian military gangs ready to invade Georgia. U.S. sends thousand marines in response

Kavkaz-Center
July 10, 2008

Gangs of the Russian invaders from the so-called North Caucasus Military District are ready “to provide assistance to the Russian troops in case the situation gets more aggravated in the conflict zones in Abkhazia and South Ossetia”, as gang leader of Russian North Caucasus Military District, Sergei Makarov, said.

Read article

US army exercises begin in Georgia

Aljazeerea
July 15, 2008

The United States and Russia are holding military exercises on either side of the Caucasus mountains amid increasing tensions over the fate of two separatist regions in ex-Soviet Georgia.

Read article

US runs military exercise around Georgia conflict

Now Public
July 17, 2008

The conflict in the Caucasus country of Georgia is growing to alarming levels. The country is fighting with a break-away region in teh North called Abkhazia, where an ethnic minority lives. The area is currently de-facto independent, and Russia is backing the area’s claims to independence, although it’s not really clear why. The US secretary of state Condoleeza Rice visited the country earlier this month, and now the US military is running exercises around the conflict. Could the US military be planning to get involved in this Caucasus conflict? The US would be supporting its pro-West ally Georgia, while Russia would be supporting the rebels. Not exactly a good idea geopolitically!

Read article

US military advisers arrive in Georgia

BBC
February 27, 2002

Five US military advisers have arrived in the former Soviet republic of Georgia, in what is being seen as a possible new front in the US war on terror.

Read article

Green Berets now in Georgia: U.S. Special Forces are training Georgian soldiers to fight radical Muslims. The mission could benefit other U.S. interests as well

VFW Magazine, June-July, 2002 by Tim Dyhouse

President George Bush called the May deployment of some 150 U.S. advisers to Georgia the latest front in the U.S. war on terrorism. Much like their fellow soldiers in the Philippines, U.S. Special Forces are teaching Georgian soldiers how to better fight Muslim extremists within their country. Also, as in the Philippines, U.S. troops are not permitted to engage in combat.

Read article

Special Forces to Train Georgian Military

NewsMax.com Wires
Thursday, Feb. 28, 2002

WASHINGTON – Concerned that al-Qaeda terrorists have moved into the former Soviet republic of Georgia, the U.S. military is expected to send as many as 200 special operations soldiers there for up to a year to train the Georgian military in counterterror and counterinsurgency tactics.

Read article

From Wikipedia

The Georgia Train and Equip Program (GTEP) training was conducted using U.S. Special Operations Forces and U. S. Marine Corps forces from May 2002 to May 2004. During this time approximately 2,600 Georgian soldiers, including a headquarters staff element and 5 tactical units, received training. Another assistance program, the Georgia Security and Stability Operations Program (Georgia SSOP), was launched in January 2005 as a continuation of the (GTEP) of 2002-2004. Georgian contingents were involved in the Kosovo Force and continue to participate in the operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Russia angry at US war plan for Georgia

Security officials from the post-Soviet state of Georgia are expected for talks in London and Washington amid growing signs that American and British forces are gearing up to attack suspected Islamist terrorists holed up in the north of the country, near the Russian border.

Read article

US troops deployed to former Soviet republic of Georgia

Two US Air Force planes brought forty American military personnel to Tbilisi, capital of the former Soviet republic of Georgia, on February 21, marking the first deployment of US combat forces in the Caucasus region, adjacent to one of the world’s largest oilfields.

Read article

US Military Pushes into Ex-Soviet Georgia Under Guise of Fighting Terror

The article, “The Pentagon is Not Rushing to the Transcaucasus, It’s Already There,” by Vasily Streltsov, reprinted from Nezavisimaya Gazeta, supports our analysis of the strategic reasons for the so-called war on terror.

Read article

The Pentagon is Not Rushing to the Transcaucasus, It’s Already There

Vasily Streltsov
Counterpunch
February 26, 2002

For a third day high-placed Russian and Georgian politicians have been pronouncing loaded phrases, in the deparaging sense, which are not acceptable in diplomatic protocal. In reply to the suggestion of Igor Ivanov that bin Laden might be hiding in the Pankisi gorge, a more than insulting answer followed from President Eduard Shevardnadze, with the proposal to seek out the terrorist in Ivanov’s mother’s house. Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov and Georgian Security Minister Valery Khaburdzania quickly jumped into the frey, while the barbs of the Georgian side continued to carry a very offensive tone.

Read article

----------


## pacelli

> Hmmm... a little Putin/Fruity-Shirt-wearer briefing at the Olympics huh....
> 
> Nothing to see here...move along.


Translator.  You can tell, look at the concentration of the guy.

----------


## pacelli

> $#@! just got real


Ouch.  They moved into the capital!?

----------


## pacelli

> I wonder what Alex Jones has to say about this........


Listen to the re-stream at infowars.com.  About 30-minutes into the show, alex took over and announced it. Covered it for pretty much the rest of the 3 hours 30 minutes.  He said that if the war escalated he'd be coming in on his day off, saturday, to broadcast during the day. And he'll be there Sunday as well.

----------


## CasualApathy

*MIA - Ossetian Separatists Are Planning to Bomb Positions of Russian Peacekeeping Forces to involve them in Conflict
*
According to the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Ossetian separatists are planning to bomb the positions of Russian Peacekeeping Forces with the purpose of involving them in the existing conflict.

The Ministry of Internal Affairs releases the mentioned information based on operative information received through intelligence sources.
Interpressnews
2008.08.08 03:19

----------


## CasualApathy

*Territory between Village of Ksuisi and Khelchua was being intensive Bombed for 20 minutes*
In the Georgian – Ossetian conflict zone, the territory between the village of Ksuisi and Khelchua was being intensive bombed for 20 minutes by Russian aircrafts.
According to the released information bombing was committed by Russian Su -25 aircrafts.
The journalists of InterpressNews and rustavi2 came under bombing. Several wre wounded due to bombing, no casualties are reported

----------


## CasualApathy

*U.S. Urges Russia to Press S.Ossetia to ‘Stop Fire’*

The U.S. Department of State’s acting deputy spokesman, Gonzalo R. Gallegos, said Washington was “urging Moscow to press South Ossetia’s de facto leaders to stop firing.”

“We’re urging Tbilisi to maintain restraint,” he also added. "We’re very concerned about the situation. We call for an immediate end to the violence and for direct talks between the parties,” he said at a press briefing in Washington.

When asked if he thought the South Ossetian side started the fighting, the U.S official responded: “We think it’s important that both sides stop firing, that they sit down and they discuss this in a peaceful manner.”

Meanwhile, Yuri Popov, the Russian Foreign Ministry’s special envoy and chief negotiator on South Ossetia, told Interfax news agency that international community should review prospects of Georgia’s NATO ambitions as Tbilisi can not be trusted.

“Georgia's step is absolutely incomprehensible and shows that the Georgian leadership has zero credit of trust,” Interfax quoted Popov as saying.
Civil Georgia
2008.08.08 03:06

----------


## CasualApathy

*NEW MEDIA RELEASE*

_Georgia Conflict Alert: The Need for an Immediate End to Hostilities in South Ossetia
_

Tbilisi/Brussels, 8 August 2008: The current fighting in South Ossetia represents a humanitarian threat to 75,000 civilians in the region and risks a larger regional conflict if it expands to other parts of Georgia including Abkhazia. All sides should immediately cease hostilities in South Ossetia, uphold humanitarian law, protect the civilian population and resume talks to stop an expansion of the conflict.

After weeks of low-level hostilities in South Ossetia, Georgia declared last night that it would restore constitutional order there and launched an offensive on the entity’s capital Tskhinvali early on 8 August. Georgian forces have taken control of much of the city and most surrounding villages. It appears that only the northern Java region remains outside Georgian control. Moscow has said it will protect Russian citizens living in South Ossetia. It has sent in large numbers of tanks and reportedly bombed locations in Georgia.

A united international position is essential to forestall further conflict and loss of life. Russia, the United States and the European Union should push for a statement by the UN Security Council that demands:

All sides immediately cease hostilities and withdraw all forces to prior positions.
Georgia abide by all laws of war, protect the civilian population and guarantee access to humanitarian assistance.
Russia refrain from taking steps outside its peacekeeping and negotiator mandate, and close its border to any paramilitaries attempting to cross into Georgia.
All parties work to ensure calm throughout the region, including Abkhazia.
It is particularly important that humanitarian assistance be immediately provided to the 75,000 civilians living in South Ossetia. Authorities need to ensure that there is full access to water, food and medical services. Roads should be open to emergency and humanitarian traffic. Persons who wish to evacuate should be allowed free passage, but no forced displacements should occur. All civilians and combatants should be assured protection according to international law and human rights obligations, and those who breach these obligations should be held accountable.

Crisis Group has repeatedly warned of the dangers of a resumption of intense conflict in South Ossetia in the absence of a substantive dialogue between the sides. Since hostilities resumed between Georgians and South Ossetians in summer 2004, confidence between the two has been low and the security situation volatile. While the South Ossetians have been demanding full independence from Georgia, Tbilisi has tried to encourage them to return to Georgia. All negotiations have been stalled since summer 2006 contributing to increasing tensions and the likelihood that any violence could quickly spiral out of control. Efforts were made on 7 August to hold talks between Georgians and South Ossetians in the presence of Russian representatives but failed.

There is a real danger that the conflict will expand beyond South Ossetia to Abkhazia and other parts of Georgia. Abkhazia has announced that it will deploy forces to its border with Georgia in the Gali region, in direct violation of the 1994 Moscow ceasefire agreement. Gali is predominantly populated by ethnic Georgians. All efforts must be made to assure their security and no extension of the conflict.

For several years, Georgia has accused Russia of supporting the South Ossetians with military aid and argued that it cannot be an honest broker in the conflict’s resolution. Tbilisi wants a change in the negotiations and peacekeeping formats in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. While this should be considered in principle, and with a greater role for the European Union, it is not the right time to insist on a change of negotiations format to restart talks. The immediate focus should be on ceasing hostilities and responding to the humanitarian crisis.
INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP
2008.08.08 20:17

----------


## CasualApathy

*Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Georgia Released Official Statement*
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Georgia released an oficcial statement
‘On August 8, the Russian Federation undertook a direct and full-scale
attack against Georgia, both inside Georgia’s territory of South Ossetia as well as outside the conflict zone.
Russian jets have violated Georgian airspace numerous times, bombing the cities of Kareli and Gori and dropping mines on the villages of Shavshvebi, Variani, and Tsedisi. Russian jets also engaged in massive bombing for 20 minutes of the area between the villages of Ksuisi and Khelchua. Russian jet fighters have been circling over the cities of Tskhinvali, Marneuli, and Gudauri for hours.
The majority of these inhabited areas lie outside South Ossetia.
The Russian Federation is pursuing clearly a deliberative strategy of aggression. By the actions it is undertaking today, the Russian Federation has grossly violated universally recognized norms and principles of international law. The Russian Federation is effectively challenging the international community, by threatening the established international order and the region’s stability.
The Government of Georgia has taken action within its own internationally recognized borders, in order to disarm illegal separatist rebel gangs in the region and reestablish security for the population in the conflict zone. In response, Russian leaders are issuing grave and threatening statements.
The Russian Federation’s open military aggression is the outcome of the aggressive policy against Georgia that Russia has pursued for several years. The consequences of this policy can be seen in the protracted conflicts on the territory of Georgia, the total ineffectiveness of the peacekeeping and negotiation formats, the illegal supply of arms and forces to the separatist criminal regimes, the transformation of Russian ‘peacekeepers’ into an occupation army, and illegal and mass passportization, among other acts that violate Georgian sovereignty.
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Georgia calls on the international community to immediately underscore to the Russian Federation that its invasion of Georgia violates international law and all 21st century norms. The Russian Federation has challenged the international community, which should respond to this challenge by creating the conditions for de-escalation, re-establishing peace in the region, and engaging in a results-oriented peace process.’- the statement reads.
intepressnews
2008.08.08 20:38

----------


## CasualApathy

*Israel Freezes Defense Sales to Georgia*
_06 August 2008
By Steve Weizman / The Associated Press_

JERUSALEM — Israel has decided to halt all sales of military equipment to Georgia because of objections from Russia, which is locked in a feud with its tiny Caucasus neighbor, Israeli defense officials said Tuesday.

The officials said the freeze was partially intended to give Israel leverage with Moscow in its attempts to persuade Russia not to ship arms and equipment to Iran. They spoke on condition of anonymity, as Israel does not officially publish details of its arms sales.

Russia has repeatedly refused to comment on reports that it is selling S-300 air-defense missiles to Iran.

Among items Israel has been selling to Tbilisi are pilotless drone aircraft. Russian fighters shot one down in May, according to UN observers.

Russia sent Israel a letter of protest after the shooting incident, asking it to stop supplying military hardware to Georgia "as Russia from time to time complies with Israel's requests not to supply weapons systems" to states seen as threatening Israel, according to a report Tuesday in the Israeli daily Maariv.

The Israeli Foreign Ministry declined to comment Tuesday on the reported arms trade freeze.

Georgian Reintegration Minister Temur Iakobashvili denied the report.

"There has been no decision by Israel to stop selling weapons. The gossip about that in the Israeli media is linked to the internal political process in Israel," Iakobashvili said.

Israel is one of the world's leading arms exporters but does not detail the contents or value of its trade with individual countries.

In addition to the spy drones, Israel has also been supplying Georgia with infantry weapons and electronics for artillery systems and has helped upgrade Soviet-designed Su-25 ground attack jets assembled in Georgia, according to Koba Liklikadze, an independent military expert based in Tbilisi. Former Israeli generals also serve as advisers to the Georgian military.

Tensions between Israel and Iran are high, with Israeli officials warning of a possible military strike against what it says is a nuclear weapons program under development by Tehran. The sale by Russia of anti-aircraft weapons could help Iran fend off an attack.

Iran denies that it has nuclear arms ambitions, saying its program is for peaceful purposes. The disagreement between Russia and Georgia centers on the breakaway Georgian provinces of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, which have close ties with Russia.

----------


## Anti Federalist

FLASHBACK - *2007*



*Georgia in US-financed arms race for war on Abkhazia, South Ossetia*

Georgia is preparing for a US-financed war against Abkhazia and South Ossetia. That is what the country's military build-up reveals, according to a leading journalist and political analyst from Geneva. Since the current regime took power, Georgian military spending has effectively increased by over forty times and now has the highest growth-rate of any country in the world.

By Jason Cooper, 11/Nov/2007

TSKHINVALI (Tiraspol Times) - Despite not being at war with anyone, for the year 2007 the military budget of Georgia is showing the highest growth rate of any country in the world, with much of it being financed openly and directly by its key military partner, the United States.

As a result, fears run high in Tskhinvali these days.

The capital of the small Republic of South Ossetia is increasingly seen as the next target of Georgian military aggression, and many here worry that it is only a matter of time before enemy troops unleash an assault on the city.

Some international analysts agree. Vicken Cheterian, a journalist and political analyst who works for the non-profit governance organization CIMERA, based in Geneva, says that "Georgia's military plans reveal its ambition to reclaim the territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia it lost in the wars of the early 1990s."

http://www.tiraspoltimes.com/news/ar...h_ossetia.html

----------


## Anti Federalist

Flashback - February 2008



*Georgia opposition leader dies suddenly in London*

MARGARITA ANTIDZE | TBILISI, GEORGIA - Feb 13 2008 10:52  

Wealthy Georgian businessman Badri Patarkatsishvili, who led and financed a big opposition campaign against President Mikhail Saakashvili, has died in London, one of his aides said on Wednesday. 

"Yes, I can confirm this, he died yesterday [Tuesday] night," Nona Gaprindashvili, the former head of his presidential election campaign, told Reuters. A report on Georgian public television said the businessman had died of a heart attack.

"It happened at 11 o'clock [last night] at Badri's house outside London. As far as I know from his relatives, it was his heart," Russian billionaire Boris Berezovsky, a friend and business partner of Patarkatsishvili, told Reuters by phone from his London home.

British police said they had not received any reports on his death, suggesting that it was not being treated as suspicious. London coroners were not immediately reachable for comment.

(snip)

*In December, London's Sunday Times newspaper published a story about an alleged plot to murder Patarkatsishvili.* The businessman responded by appealing to Georgia's government to start an immediate investigation into the matter.

The government dismissed the claims as fabrication.

http://www.mg.co.za/article/2008-02-...enly-in-london

----------


## pacelli

Man, if they start popping off 75,000 people this thing is going to escalate far beyond Russia and Georgia.

----------


## yongrel

> Man, if they start popping off 75,000 people this thing is going to escalate far beyond Russian and George.


It hits 10k, and there will be calls for the US to intervene.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Wait, so how is America involved in this?
> 
> It'd be nice if the news would actually inform me.


_Mike Rivero at whatreallyhappened.com_:

Okay, now I don't really give a flying foxtrot uniform charlie kilo about John Edwards. But ABCNNBBCBS is running this all over the place like it is the hot story of the year.

Folks, you are being CONDITIZED!

Back in early 2001, when the US Government was already informing other governments of plans to invade Afghanistan in October 2001, the corporate media had turned the sordid tale of Gary Condit and Chandra Levy into the one and only story for the TV sets of America. There were very few reports of the war being planned for Afghanistan, so when the invasion actually happened, right after the convenient events of 9-11 angered America into a war-fever, it was a surprise to nobody bu the American people.

Well, here we are again. The TV sets are tossing John Edwards' love-child right into our faces non-stop, with only the briefest of pauses to shout "RUSSIA INVADES!" so it doesn't look like they are hiding anything from you.

But think. The fact that John Edwards knocked up his mistress is not something that actually affects your life in any material way. It's tabloid scandal at best, yet to ABCNNBBCBS, this is the important news to shove at you. But the outbreak of war gets barely an insert and a screen crawl, and those are actually lies! Russia did NOT invade. The initiating event was the shelling of a Russian installation, presumably by the Georgians, but in fact we really do not know.

But a real war with Russia does affect your life in very material ways. The US is already at economic death's door from the existing wars. Once again we see Israel working to kick off a war they will expect our sons and daughters to clean up. 

And the other side actually has nuclear and biological weapons of mass destruction, and faces an enemy they already know has the willingness to use such weapons unless preemptively attacked.

----------


## aravoth

> I don't follow the news cycle, so I haven't heard anything from anyone.
> 
> All I know is that this whole thing is mind-boggling. It makes no goddamned sense.


Been scratching my head all day. Nothing about it makes any sense at all.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Been scratching my head all day. Nothing about it makes any sense at all.


Seems to me to be a preemptive move to tie Russia down in an "internal" conflict, thereby getting them out of the picture for a US invasion of Iran.

Or worse, a move to push Russia into a massive military invasion of the entire area, giving *us* the excuse to move in.

This whole thing has been a thorn in Russia's side for years now, we have been openly supporting and arming the Georgian government.

----------


## devil21

I hope this works.  I dont post web pics often.

The best picture of Friday I think.


During the Olympics on Friday, Russian Prime Minister Putin and Israeli President Peres.  Guess which is which.  Everything is going according to plan in Shimon's world....

----------


## Monolithic

"oh good you're here george, i got a party going down in georgia right now"

----------


## ItsTime

bombing outside capital 
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/...ap5306644.html

----------


## Zolah

I caught this story yesterday but mainly this morning...BBC's coverage says Russia is liberating South Ossetia...on the other hand CNN's coverage says Russia is committing genocide in Georgia, I had to laugh at the stark difference in coverage.

From what I know, the surge in escalation came about when pretty much the whole world (apart from Russia) instantly recognised Kosovo as an independent state, even though it didn't do so legally. Following that, Russia pushed for recognition of Azkhazia and South Ossetia as independent states I believe, which involved no photo opportunities for "world leaders" so was ignored/condemned. 

I hope the issue is resolved quickly anyway, with a couple new free and independent countries through self-determination. I believe Bush spent a lot of time trying to get Georgia into NATO to intervene in this future (now present) conflict.

----------


## Cowlesy

> bombing outside capital 
> http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/...ap5306644.html


I just hope the ground forces do NOT enter Georgia proper in any big capacity, as then this thing could really get ugly.

It looks like from the Forbes article, the President of Georgia (a U.S. educated lawyer) has always had a plan to retake the two provinces.  It looks like they tried to make a run for South Ossetia, and Russia intervened (the majority of South Ossetia being Russian citizens/sympathizers).

Now it seems that Russia is bombing more military targets inside Georgia proper.  That, and an alleged report of dropping some ordinance around a port city/oil terminal (but the info there seemed shaky).

In other news, the media is freaking out about a psycho chinese guy who killed an American tourist and wounded another in Beijing, and John Edwards ---- oh yeah and there is a skirmish in the Caucasus.

----------


## Cowlesy

From Reuters/AlertNet - 
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L9197241.htm




> * Georgia calls for ceasefire
> * Bush warns of "dangerous escalation" in conflict
> * Medvedev says Georgians must withdraw
> * Putin arrives in North Ossetia
> 
> Abkhazia, another pro-Russian enclave in Georgia, said its forces had begun an operation to drive out Georgian forces, possibly opening a *second front* against Tbilisi.
> 
> In a telephone call with Bush, Medvedev "stressed that the only way out of the tragic crisis provoked by the Georgian leadership is a withdrawal by Tbilisi of its armed formations from the conflict zone," a Kremlin statement said.
> 
> Georgia said Russian planes had targeted a vital pipeline that carries oil to the West from Asia but had *missed.*


Some points from the article quoted above.  Good to hear the Russian planes missed the pipeline.

----------


## ItsTime

Russia in "Full Scale Invasion" of Georgia 

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/0...ia-latest.html

----------


## pacelli

Russia Today banner: Russia has not received proposals for ceasefire from Georgia.

http://streaming.visionip.tv/Russia_Today

----------


## crackyflipside

This is terrifying, I have a feeling this is something Paul was alluding to in his speech.

It feels like another conflict to provoke an Iranian war.

Our Navy is right outside of their waters, north of their country is a full scale invasion by a superpower (Russia v Georgia) to the west of their country is a full scale invasion by a superpower (USA v Iraq)

----------


## CasualApathy

Danish media is reporting a new development...
http://ekstrabladet.dk/nyheder/krigo...cle1042120.ece (wont help you unless you read danish or know how to use online translators, but included as proof of authenticity)

Translated from danish:

*Russian claim: America behind attack*

It is the American government which has staged the bloody conflict in South Ossetia, a prominent russian government official says.
*
"The conflict is following the same pattern as in Kosovo and Iraq. The whole world will soon see that Georgia would not have been able to do this without american support."* says Vladimir Vasilyev, who is the chairman of the russian security committee.

----------


## CasualApathy

Meanwhile the european council of foreign ministers is holding another emergenzy-meeting regarding the recent escalations....

----------


## JosephTheLibertarian

> Danish media is reporting a new development...
> http://ekstrabladet.dk/nyheder/krigo...cle1042120.ece (wont help you unless you read danish or know how to use online translators, but included as proof of authenticity)
> 
> Translated from danish:
> 
> *Russian claim: America behind attack*
> 
> It is the American government which has staged the bloody conflict in South Ossetia, a prominent russian government official says.
> *
> "The conflict is following the same pattern as in Kosovo and Iraq. The whole world will soon see that Georgia would not have been able to do this without american support."* says Vladimir Vasilyev, who is the chairman of the russian security committee.


hmm? an isolated claim, perhaps? However, I would not be surprised if it were true.

----------


## forsmant

> This is terrifying, I have a feeling this is something Paul was alluding to in his speech.
> 
> It feels like another conflict to provoke an Iranian war.
> 
> Our Navy is right outside of their waters, north of their country is a full scale invasion by a superpower (Russia v Georgia) to the west of their country is a full scale invasion by a superpower (USA v Iraq)


to the east is Afghanistan.

----------


## CasualApathy

Helmet of russian fighter pilot displayed as trophy on Georgian TV.

----------


## Mister Grieves

> Helmet of russian fighter pilot displayed as trophy on Georgian TV.


Vid: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cdc_1218284846


This will end very badly...

----------


## |MC|

> A delegation including envoys from the US, EU and OSCE is heading to Georgia as its conflict with Russia over the breakaway South Ossetia region deepens.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7551595.stm

----------


## Vet_from_cali

i'd be pretty pissed off if i were a Russian and seen that $#@!...

----------


## revolutionary8

Zbigniew Brzezinski: the Empires Adviser
*The outrageous strategy to destroy Russia*
by Arthur Lepic*

Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Jimmy Carters former adviser, embodies the continuity of U.S. foreign policy whether it is democratic or republican. A great admirer of Henry Kissinger, Brzezinski has always defended, praised and shown an absolute respect for the masters two diplomacy concepts: the balance of the powers theorized by Metternich and George Kennans containment doctrine.* Zbigniew Brzezinski recommends how Russia should be militarily weakened and intimidated. He is convinced that the best way to achieve it is by destabilizing its border regions,* a political strategy that arouse the interest of former presidential candidate John Kerrys team who recruited his son Mark Brzezinski as its foreign policy adviser.

Based on George W. Bushs speech during year 2000 presidential campaign, a rigid, even aggressive attitude towards Vladimir Putins Russia would have been expected -according to his adviser hawk Wolfowitzs doctrine. But, instead, we have seen an unprecedented approach in the political relations of these two great nations. And this has happened after September 11, 2001.

For many observers and analysts there was an agreement between Putin and Bush not to criticize Russian military operations in Chechnya whereas Putin would ignore American interventions and interferences in the Middle East.

This explanation does not really value September 11 facts. It actually considers them as an abstraction and the same with Kremlins position on this. We can say that Republican administrations have always attached too much importance to the Middle East whereas Democrats political tradition on foreign policy has been more focused in Eurasia.

To design its strategy towards the former USRR and then on the Easter states, recently emancipated from the Soviet influence, Democrats have trusted -since Jimmy Carter took power- a brilliant, unscrupulous and anti-Russian man: Zbigniew Brzezinski.

http://http://209.85.173.104/search?...ient=firefox-a

The article is cached because it comes up as error with direct link.

 I would suggest reading the entire article.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Zbigniew Brzezinski: the Empires Adviser
> *The outrageous strategy to destroy Russia*
> by Arthur Lepic*
> 
> Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Jimmy Carters former adviser, embodies the continuity of U.S. foreign policy whether it is democratic or republican. A great admirer of Henry Kissinger, Brzezinski has always defended, praised and shown an absolute respect for the masters two diplomacy concepts: the balance of the powers theorized by Metternich and George Kennans containment doctrine.* Zbigniew Brzezinski recommends how Russia should be militarily weakened and intimidated. He is convinced that the best way to achieve it is by destabilizing its border regions,* a political strategy that arouse the interest of former presidential candidate John Kerrys team who recruited his son Mark Brzezinski as its foreign policy adviser.
> 
> Based on George W. Bushs speech during year 2000 presidential campaign, a rigid, even aggressive attitude towards Vladimir Putins Russia would have been expected -according to his adviser hawk Wolfowitzs doctrine. But, instead, we have seen an unprecedented approach in the political relations of these two great nations. And this has happened after September 11, 2001.
> 
> For many observers and analysts there was an agreement between Putin and Bush not to criticize Russian military operations in Chechnya whereas Putin would ignore American interventions and interferences in the Middle East.
> ...


And of course, he is working for Obama.

Change my ass.

----------


## CasualApathy

From the official website of the georgian seperatists:



> *Save the little nation from the annihilation!*
> Stop the genocide of the Ossetians!
> The nationalistic and fascist government of Georgia from the year 1989 support the policy of the annihilation and the impression of the aboriginal Ossetian population from the territory that they occupy. From 1991 as a consequence of repeated military actions that were undertaken by the criminal authorities of Georgia against the small nations and the national purge murdered thousands of people –Ossetians, Abkhazians, Armenians, Russians. At the same time the scale of the genocide passed over the silence by mass media. The atrocity of the Georgian fascists, the tortures surpassed the one of the German fascists during the World War II.
> The Georgian nation is sick, the ideas of the national oneness, justifying the territorial claims are warmed up by the Georgian mass media. The government of Georgia is financed by the USA, having it's own geopolitical interests in the region. Now the tragedy is developed, the Ossetian people are systematically shot in own houses, perish under blockages of the destroyed houses. The Georgian fascists have destroyed, have wiped about Ossetian villages, the city of Tskhinval is in ruins. It's impossible to count up the quantity of victims, that were buried under blockages of the houses destroyed by fire of the Georgian aggressors, the account goes on thousand. Groans of people from under blockages are audible. The Republic hospital where had helped to the wounded man was destroyed by the Georgian artillery, under blockages were wounded men and medical workers who could not be released under heavy fire of the opponent. Thus the Georgian party cynically declares the constitutional order prompting, one for another offers insinuations to accuse the Russian or Ossetian parts in the conflict. The people of Abkhazia will be the following victims of the Georgian extremism. We ask for the help, solidarity, and if it is possible with an exit on the international sites. Let the world knows the truth, instead of presented by the Georgian masters of falsifications lie.

----------


## Cowlesy

> From the official website of the georgian seperatists:


Geez oh man.

I wonder if there is a Georgian Loyalists website out there?

----------


## revolutionary8

> Danish media is reporting a new development...
> http://ekstrabladet.dk/nyheder/krigo...cle1042120.ece (wont help you unless you read danish or know how to use online translators, but included as proof of authenticity)
> 
> Translated from danish:
> 
> *Russian claim: America behind attack*
> 
> It is the American government which has staged the bloody conflict in South Ossetia, a prominent russian government official says.
> *
> "The conflict is following the same pattern as in Kosovo and Iraq. The whole world will soon see that Georgia would not have been able to do this without american support."* says Vladimir Vasilyev, who is the chairman of the russian security committee.


*
War between Russia and Georgia orchestrated from USA*

The US administration urged for an immediate cease-fire in the conflict between Russia and Georgia over the unrecognized republic of South Ossetia.

In the meantime, Russian officials believe that it was the USA that orchestrated the current conflict. The chairman of the State Duma Committee for Security, Vladimir Vasilyev, believes that the current conflict is South Ossetia is very reminiscent to the wars in Iraq and Kosovo.

The things that were happening in Kosovo, the things that were happening in Iraq  we are now following the same path. The further the situation unfolds, the more the world will understand that Georgia would never be able to do all this without America. South Ossetian defense officials used to make statements about imminent aggression from Georgia, but the latter denied everything, whereas the US Department of State released no comments on the matter. In essence, they have prepared the force, which destroys everything in South Ossetia, attacks civilians and hospitals. They are responsible for this. The world community will learn about it, the official said.

In the meantime, it became known that the Georgian troops conducted volley-fire cleansings of several South Ossetian settlements, where peoples houses were simply leveled. 

"Civilians, including women, children and elderly people, are dying in South Ossetia. In addition to that, Georgia conducts ethnic scouring in South Ossetian villages. The situation in South Ossetia continues to worsen every hour. Georgia uses military hardware and heavy arms against people. They shell residential quarters of Tskhinvali [the capital] and other settlements. They bomb the humanitarian convoys. The number of refugees continues to rise  the people try to save their lives, the lives of their children and relatives. A humanitarian catastrophe is gathering pace, Russias Foreign Minister said.

The minister added that the Georgian administration ignored the appeal from the UN General Assembly to observe the Olympic truce during the Beijing Olympics. 
http://http://english.pravda.ru/hots...icts/106046-0/

 more at link. 

This is going to be ugly.

----------


## ItsTime

we are screwed. I bet you anything arms are FLOODING Iran as we speak and being sent into Iraq.

----------


## Andrew-Austin

> The world community will learn about it


Hes not especially convincing, but it would not surprise me if hes right... In which case I hope the world learns the truth about it...

----------


## brandon

> “The things that were happening in Kosovo, the things that were happening in Iraq – we are now following the same path. The further the situation unfolds, the more the world will understand that Georgia would never be able to do all this without America. South Ossetian defense officials used to make statements about imminent aggression from Georgia, but the latter denied everything, whereas the US Department of State released no comments on the matter. In essence, they have prepared the force, which destroys everything in South Ossetia, attacks civilians and hospitals. They are responsible for this. The world community will learn about it,” the official said.


I'm confused. What exactly are they accusing our government of doing? Are they saying we used propaganda to convince Georgia to attack Russia? Or are they saying that we gave weapons and training to Georgia? Or are they saying that the attack was a false flag, and it was actually US troops that started the conflict?

----------


## CasualApathy

*Analysis: Georgian Army May Be Tough Nut for Russia to Crack*


_Georgian soldiers have been trained by US military experts
_
The war in the Caucasian province Ossetia may seem like an uneven contest between giant Russia and tiny Georgia -- but on the battlefront things are a bit different.

Georgia's President President Mikheil Saakashvili, coming to office in the 2003 pro-democracy Rose Revolution, has with some help from the United States built up the region's toughest little military. Russia can destroy it, but it will be neither quick nor easy, regional observers say.

US Special Forces troops, and later US Marines replacing them, have for the last half decade been systematically training selected Georgian units to NATO standards. Gone are the Soviet traditions of soldiers' never firing their weapons until the war breaks out, or tanks too valuable to drive out of the motor pool.

Using standard training plans familiar to the average US Army or Marine recruit, the US educators have focused on basics: teaching Georgian soldiers small unit tactics, marksmanship, and individual initiative.

The US trainers also took the Georgian officer corps to school, pushing lessons and buzz words learned by America in its recent wars.

Among these, are making the air force and army work together (inter-service cooperation), trying to surprise the opponent and possess lots of information about him (the information battle), getting beans and bullets to the troops (logistics), and enforcing the bog-standard rule that good officers lead from the front.

*Best-paid jobs*

Saakashvili has fully backed up the American trainers: In high-unemployment Georgia, the best-paid job available to an active young Georgian man is within the ranks of the military.

Today, roughly one-quarter of Georgia's functional land forces are US-trained. The backbone of the Georgian army is seven infantry battalions raised from scratch and brought by the US Green Berets from boot camp to something quite close to NATO-standard combat readiness over the years, a mass of some 5,000 men.

Georgia since 2003 has been among the US' most enthusiastic supporters of international forces in Afghanistan, Kosovo, and Iraq.

Currently Georgia, once a minor Soviet republic of some 4.5 million inhabitants, fields the third-largest foreign force in Iraq, after the US and Britain.
*
Returning home*

Georgia's government on Saturday called on those desert-hardened veterans, requesting the Pentagon release the elite 13th battalion to return home from the Middle East, to fight Russians in Ossetia.

Saakashvili's Defense Ministry, according to officials in Tbilisi, spends some $930 million (620 million euros) a year on its military, a drop in the bucket compared to Russia, but a massive spike from $30 million spent in 1991 when Georgia became independent.

Perhaps tellingly, a lion's share of Georgia's defense budget has gone to field training and soldier personal kit.

First-line Georgian soldiers wear NATO uniforms, kevlar helmets and body armour matching US issue, and carry the US-manufactured M-16 automatic rifle -- a dramatic turn away from the way most former Soviet republics outfit troops, with a mix of Soviet-era hand-me-downs and more recent Russian or Chinese gear.

Georgia has, however, not thrown out every last Kalashnikov, and most of Georgia's reserves and second-line troops are not as well equipped, and trained marginally, similar to Russian reserves that might be sent to the region.
*
Big ticket items*

But Georgia at the same time has according to military observers spent its limited money on a few well-chosen big ticket items: modern Czech self-propelled howitzers and rocket launchers (of which some now are bombarding Tskhinvali), Turkish armored cars, and even a French missile boat.

The infantry force the Georgians have fielded in Ossetia, as a result, is by most accounts at least as competent as Russian army elements opposing it, and by some standards (combat experience and field training) possibly even superior, observers said.

Russia as a regional power, however, enjoys overall superiority over the Georgians, in the short term with a much stronger air force, and in the longer term with the Kremlin's potential ability to mobilize hundreds of thousands of troops and conquer Georgia -- provided the Kremlin has the will to take the losses needed to eliminate their doughty opponents.

A second and probably more critical question is, therefore, whether it is Saakashvili or the Kremlin that is more willing to spend soldier lives in what by all accounts promises to be more bloody fighting.

----------


## ItsTime

we are witness to another afghan war.

----------


## The_Orlonater

This should get interesting.

----------


## revolutionary8

> I'm confused. What exactly are they accusing our government of doing? Are they saying we used propaganda to convince Georgia to attack Russia? Or are they saying that we gave weapons and training to Georgia? Or are they saying that the attack was a false flag, and it was actually US troops that started the conflict?


I think probably all of the above. If you reference the article I posted about ZB, he basically admits that this tactic has been used on the Russians before.




> Le Nouvel Observateur: Former CIA director, Robert Gates, says in his memoirs: the American secret services assisted Afghan mujahedeen six months before the Soviet invasion. By that time, you were President Carters adviser and you played a key role on this. Do you confirm it?
> 
> Zbigniew Brzezinski: *Yes. According to the official version of the story, the CIA began to assist mujahedeen in the year 1980, that is, after the invasion of the Soviet army against Afghanistan on December 24, 1979. But the truth that remained secret until today is quite different: it was on July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed his first order on the secret assistance to Kabuls pro-Soviet regime opponents. That day I wrote a memorandum to the President in which I told him that that assistance would cause the Soviet intervention (...) we did not force the Russian intervention, we just, conscientiously, increase the intervention possibilities.*
> 
> NO: *When the Soviets justified their intervention by affirming they were fighting against a secret American interference nobody believed them, though they were telling the truth.* Dont you regret it?
> 
> Z. Brz.: *Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea.* Its objective was to lead the Russian to the Afghan trap, and you want me to regret it? The very same day the Soviets crossed the Afghan border I wrote the following to President Carter: «This is our chance to give Russia its Viet Nam» (...).

----------


## Cowlesy

Great, some more stellar news that makes me think we are involved somehow.

Out of Israel: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...580136,00.html

Quotes from the article:




> Israel began selling arms to Georgia about seven years ago following an initiative by Georgian citizens who immigrated to Israel and became businesspeople.
> 
> "They contacted defense industry officials and arms dealers and told them that Georgia had relatively large budgets and could be interested in purchasing Israeli weapons," says a source involved in arms exports.
> 
> The military cooperation between the countries developed swiftly. The fact that Georgia's defense minister, Davit Kezerashvili, is a former Israeli who is fluent in Hebrew contributed to this cooperation.


I didn't really buy into that DEBKA article earlier, because people are always trying to point fingers at the Israelis for everything which I think is completely bunk.  In this case though, it would make sense since they are geographically close, and Georgia's need for weapons is simply supply and demand.




> "The Israelis should be proud of themselves for the Israeli training and education received by the Georgian soldiers," Georgian Minister Temur Yakobashvili said Saturday.
> 
> Yakobashvili is a Jew and is fluent in Hebrew. *"We are now in a fight against the great Russia," he said, "and our hope is to receive assistance from the White House, because Georgia cannot survive on its own.*


Come on man!  Since 1992 there haven't been any problems.  Why the hell do you need to drag us into this!?

Something still seems a little strange about the article.  Anyone know if Ynet News is considered somewhat credible?  The only reason I had thought so previously is that I read Ynet News stuff a lot on Drudgereport.

----------


## PatriotOne

> Great, some more stellar news that makes me think we are involved somehow.
> 
> Out of Israel: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...580136,00.html
> 
> Quotes from the article:
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't really buy into that DEBKA article earlier, because people are always trying to point fingers at the Israelis for everything which I think is completely bunk.  In this case though, it would make sense since they are geographically close, and Georgia's need for weapons is simply supply and demand.
> ...


It's the other way around.  The U.S. is dragging Georgia into this.  They are just another puppet state.

----------


## ItsTime

> It's the other way around.  The U.S. is dragging Georgia into this.  They are just another puppet state.


That is more like it. I do not think Georgia would have done any of this without the "ok" from the US or the US pushing them to do it.  It is a suicide mission.

----------


## torchbearer

> That is more like it. I do not think Georgia would have done any of this without the "ok" from the US or the US pushing them to do it.  It is a suicide mission.


+1, and another reason why we need to watch our own borders more closely.
If russia even thinks we are behind this... watch out massive waves of illegals, they will be provided transportation via russia. border king pins will get hi-tech wargear.
our border patrol will be attacked/killed constantly...
wait, all this stuff is happening..

----------


## Fox McCloud

> +1, and another reason why we need to watch our own borders more closely.
> If russia even thinks we are behind this... watch out massive waves of illegals, they will be provided transportation via russia. border king pins will get hi-tech wargear.
> our border patrol will be attacked/killed constantly...
> wait, all this stuff is happening..


forget illegals, watch out for things that go bump--erm, boom in the night.

----------


## ItsTime

> +1, and another reason why we need to watch our own borders more closely.
> If russia even thinks we are behind this... watch out massive waves of illegals, they will be provided transportation via russia. border king pins will get hi-tech wargear.
> our border patrol will be attacked/killed constantly...
> wait, all this stuff is happening..


very good point. For some reason I did not think of that.

----------


## PatriotOne

> If russia even thinks we are behind this...


It's actually more complicated than the U.S. being behind this but Putin is Russian, not mentally retarded.  He knows which juglar to attack:

*The Pipeline War: Russian bear goes for Wests jugular*

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...s-jugular.html

----------


## Cowlesy

From Russiatoday.com

http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28749




> *Georgia announces ceasefire*
> 
> The Russian embassy in Tbilisi has reportedly received a note from the Georgian president saying his country is stopping military action in South Ossetia. Russias Interfax news agency reports that Mikhail Saakashvili ordered his army to stop firing on Sunday. However, the Russian Foreign Ministry says Georgia has yet to end hostilities.
> Russia's Defence Ministry has confirmed that Georgian troops have withdrawn from South Ossetia after failing to retake the breakaway republic through military force. Spokesman Anatoly Nogovitsyn said peacekeeping soldiers are once again in control of most of the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali.
> 
> The announcement goes some way towards clarifying conflicting messages coming out of Tbilisi earlier on Sunday.
> 
> Initially Reuters news agency quoted Georgias Internal Affairs Ministry spokesman, Shota Utiashvili, as saying: Georgian troops have fully left South Ossetia.
> 
> ...

----------


## ItsTime

bbc also saying cease fire

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7552012.stm

----------


## pacelli

Russia Today saying that Russia has pledged to send 400 million in aid.  Ossetia is out of food, water, electricity, and many are still trapped under the rubble. Evidently the hospital was bombed.

----------


## PatriotOne

> bbc also saying cease fire
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7552012.stm



Wow.  U.S. backed Georgia starts a war with Russia by firing on their peace keeping planes in the region and now wants to play the sympathy card and make Russia look like the bad guy.  This is so blatantly obvious.  The Bush admin is provoking Russia intentionally.  Me thinks Cheney is hoping Russia will give them the excuse to declare Martial Law and suspend elections.

Unfreakingbelievable statement by our Insecurity Department:

_The US has described Russia's actions as "dangerous and disproportionate". 

US Deputy National Security Adviser James Jeffrey said that if the Russian escalation continued, it would have a "significant" long-term impact on relations between the Moscow and Washington._

----------


## Fox McCloud

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...efer=worldwide

What a loser, Obama is blaming lack of UN involvement for the current situation in Georgia.

----------


## torchbearer

> Wow.  U.S. backed Georgia starts a war with Russia by firing on their peace keeping planes in the region and now wants to play the sympathy card and make Russia look like the bad guy.  This is so blatantly obvious.  The Bush admin is provoking Russia intentionally.  Me thinks Cheney is hoping Russia will give them the excuse to declare Martial Law and suspend elections.
> 
> Unfreakingbelievable statement by our Insecurity Department:
> 
> _The US has described Russia's actions as "dangerous and disproportionate". 
> 
> US Deputy National Security Adviser James Jeffrey said that if the Russian escalation continued, it would have a "significant" long-term impact on relations between the Moscow and Washington._


That never stopped us.

----------


## PatriotOne

> That never stopped us.


LOL...I KNOW!  And yet it never ceases to amaze me when it happens either .

----------


## Fox McCloud

Hmmm, so Georgia is calling for a ceasefire and they've pulled out of Ossetia--wonder if they really mean it, and I wonder if Russia will accept?

----------


## Zolah

> It's the other way around.  The U.S. is dragging Georgia into this.  They are just another puppet state.


Yeah that's a good point, I thoroughly believe Georgia would never mess around with this without thinking that Bush&Co would have its back, and I utterly believe that's what happened...the timing was probably wrong for Georgia cause as it is at the moment they're just screwed.




> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...efer=worldwide
> 
> What a loser, Obama is blaming lack of UN involvement for the current situation in Georgia.


That's not in the least bit surprising sadly, he's such a lackey.




I've been watching Sky News (sister station of Fox, owned by Murdoch) and BBC News, only once have I seen them talking to a Russian about the issue, 99% of the time they're showing the Georgian side of the story, and the Georgian officials are $#@!ing insane, spouting non-stop propaganda that they pull out of their asses, and constantly claiming that Europeans should rally around Georgia like they're a little kid being bullied...but we know who threw the first stone.

----------


## Peace&Freedom

> Hmmm, so Georgia is calling for a ceasefire and they've pulled out of Ossetia--wonder if they really mean it, and I wonder if Russia will accept?


Russia is disputing whether Georgia has withdrawn the troops. Lots of questions arise from this situation. Russia has repeatedly promised to 'do something' if Iran is attacked. There is a question as to whether the US pushed Georgia into doing this in order to keep Russia preoccupied, thus stopping them from getting involved if/when the US/Israel attacks Iran. It can also be counter-argued that Russia itself WANTS to back out of its Iran promise, and might be using the hostilities with Georgia as a figleaf for non-action if Iran erupts. And is Russia's intention to get back the status quo with Georgia, or to take back Ossetia, or to take back all of Georgia?

----------


## PatriotOne

> Hmmm, so Georgia is calling for a ceasefire and they've pulled out of Ossetia--wonder if they really mean it, and I wonder if Russia will accept?


Russia says they have not pulled out...just moved positions.  

I am not usually a defender of Russia but in this case I believe them.  It think U.S. backed Georgia is provoking Russia still and the media is reading the Pentagon script helping them to look like the victims now.  Like I said above, this looks to me like a ploy on the neocons part to escalate a small war with Russia.  They (the U.S neocons) hope Russia will give them the excuse (or perhaps a false flag op is next (an attack on the U.S. blamed on Russia) so they can declare martial law and suspend elections.  That's the best reasoning I can come up with right now for "Georgia" to provoke Russia.  It sure the hell isn't because they thought they could win a war with Russia .

----------


## Aratus

> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...efer=worldwide
> 
> What a loser, Obama is blaming lack of UN involvement for the current situation in Georgia.



if we see president obama in the white house making policy decisions, will
some of our troops be u.n peacekeepers who will hopefully prevent another 
border war between russia and georgia??? and if we see president mccain in 
the whitehouse, after he fires  9/10ths of the upper level idiots around karl rove 
and the "W"... would he do a likewise ...or sit back ...or pick sides? i sorta wonder!!!

----------


## PatriotOne

> Russia is disputing whether Georgia has withdrawn the troops. Lots of questions arise from this situation. Russia has repeatedly promised to 'do something' if Iran is attacked. There is a question as to whether the US pushed Georgia into doing this in order to keep Russia preoccupied, thus stopping them from getting involved if/when the US/Israel attacks Iran. It can also be counter-argued that Russia itself WANTS to back out of its Iran promise, and might be using the hostilities with Georgia as a figleaf for non-action if Iran erupts. And is Russia's intention to get back the status quo with Georgia, or to take back Ossetia, or to take back all of Georgia?


Hmmmm....interesting analysis.  One land route to Iran for Russia goes right through Georgia.  Is Georgia the first line of U.S. defense to stop Russia getting involved in the war in Iran?  Arghhhhh.....I'm getting a headache thinking about all this.

Please Russia....don't take the freaking bait!
  Just go home

----------


## RSLudlum

Don't know which side to believe?  Here's RussiaToday site with their reports on the situation:

http://www.russiatoday.ru/?id=196

----------


## newyearsrevolution08

This is all we need. Getting into it with Russia. Bush is of course talking down on Russia over this and we only know how well that $#@! does with other "Powers" actually using their power. He is like that kid who sees someone else playing with a toy and has to go over there and take it.

----------


## Aratus

has the mossad cooked any intel reports?
is the russian empire of the tsars inside a
resurrection in a manner other than biblical??
are the poor georgians behind an eight-ball???


---does tomorrow bring a better day if there be
---talks between ALL the combatants. would this
---have a further tragic obscenity if g.w bush moves
---on poor iran as our house and senate think recess...

august of 1914 was after months & years of saber-rattling.
i am not slamming into obama just yet for thinking our U.N can
talk these war nerves down, however i am keeping in mind that
william jennings bryan was woodrow wilson's secretary of state an'
that even though wilson swore not to involve us, we became involved.
bush and putin looked sorta chummy in beijing during the opening night
shindig. ...maybe this is a good thing, and yes, mccain's and obama's own
words now shall tell us volumns about their grasp of foreign affairs.  ...this is 
seriously a major mini-crisis that has a big wheat from chaff potential inherent...

----------


## PatriotOne

> Don't know which side to believe?  Here's RussiaToday site with their reports on the situation:
> 
> http://www.russiatoday.ru/?id=196



Thanks for that.

----------


## Andrew-Austin

-Russia today was outlining Georgia's initial attack on Ossetia, which did seem to include attacking places like churches, hospitals, schools, utilities etc. Think I heard someone say the Ossetian water supply was cut off long before the attack. 

-Russian officials are saying a ceasefire is not good enough, and that the Georgian army must withdraw completely. 

-Russian Ambassador Churkin was outlining how it is "hypocritical" for the US to be calling for a ceasefire, given their past military ventures.

----------


## RSLudlum

> -russian ambassador churkin was outlining how it is "hypocritical" for the us to be calling for a ceasefire, given their past military ventures.


ouch!!!

----------


## Andrew-Austin

Israel claims it is reducing (or is considering reducing?) the amount of arms supplied to Georgia in response to their actions, per RT.


Flashback article from five days ago lol: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

----------


## PatriotOne

> -Russia today was outlining Georgia's initial attack on Ossetia, which did seem to include attacking places like churches, hospitals, schools, utilities etc. Think I heard someone say the Ossetian water supply was cut off long before the attack. 
> 
> -Russian officials are saying a ceasefire is not good enough, and that the Georgian army must withdraw completely. 
> 
> -Russian Ambassador Churkin was outlining how it is "hypocritical" for the US to be calling for a ceasefire, given their past military ventures.


_churches, hospitals, schools, utilities etc. Think I heard someone say the Ossetian water supply was cut off long before the attack._ 

Of course.  Now watch the U.S. Government contractors move in to rebuild the damage done on the taxpayers dime.

----------


## pacelli

Russia Today is now reporting the *possibility* that foreign mercenaries were also involved:




> He also confirmed the South Ossetian President’s claim that foreign mercenaries took part in the onslaught.
> 
> “In yesterday’s attack, the advancing tanks were supposedly crewed by Ukrainians. *Two unidentified bodies found today are said to have black skin. Possibly they are Americans but we can’t say for sure yet. We will be able to publish the official conclusions after carrying out special tests,”* Medoyev said.


By the way, don't click on the link if a photo of a dead body lying face down in the street is offensive to you.  This is how Russian news reports, don't blame me. You have been warned.  http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28765

----------


## richardfortherepublic

"TBILISI, Georgia - Russia expanded its bombing blitz to the Georgian capital, deployed ships off the coast and, a Georgian official said, sent tanks from the separatist region of South Ossetia into Georgian territory, heading toward a border city before being turned back.
ADVERTISEMENT

Russia also claimed its forces sank a Georgian missile boat that was trying to attack Russian ships in the Black Sea, news agencies reported."


7 minutes ago.

$#@!.

----------


## Fox McCloud

It dooesn't sound like Russia wants to talk or is agreeing with the cease-fire on this one...

----------


## IChooseLiberty

> It dooesn't sound like Russia wants to talk or is agreeing with the cease-fire on this one...


You don't cease firing before your mission is over.  That's just silly.

----------


## Andrew-Austin

It seems impossible to find a news analysis that is without bias on this issue...

I can't figure out the story behind the story.

----------


## IChooseLiberty

> It seems impossible to find a news analysis that is without bias on this issue...


Well, you're wasting your time if you're using American sources.  They don't have people on the ground, first-hand information, and are seemingly the worst sources of propaganda.

The best I've found is Russian Today.
http://streaming.visionip.tv/Russia_Today

----------


## Andrew-Austin

> Well, you're wasting your time if you're using American sources.  They don't have people on the ground, first-hand information, and are seemingly the worst sources of propaganda.
> 
> The best I've found is Russian Today.
> http://streaming.visionip.tv/Russia_Today


I have not bothered with American sources, also have been using RT. Their just not that great either.

----------


## ClayTrainor

almost all US MSM is reporting Russia as being the instigator of this conflict...

When i read yahoo answers, responses and other forums there are ALOT of people who are spewing hatred towards russians.

The public is so sheeplike it isnt even funny.

----------


## IChooseLiberty

> I have not bothered with American sources, also have been using RT. Their just not that great either.


Try here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/

----------


## Hiki

> almost all US MSM is reporting Russia as being the instigator of this conflict...
> 
> When i read yahoo answers, responses and other forums there are ALOT of people who are spewing hatred towards russians.
> 
> The public is so sheeplike it isnt even funny.


Eh, wasn't it the Russians who invaded?

----------


## Fox McCloud

perhaps this is the event that will get Americans "back on track" to their, sadly, militaristic ways...

----------


## ItsTime

good propaganda piece

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...831244,00.html




> Georgia is a close ally of the U.S. and has a large troop contingent in Iraq. Its government is hoping that President Bush and other Western leaders will lean on Prime Minister Vladimir Putin to call off his troops.



I guess "large" means 2,000 now.

----------


## IChooseLiberty

> Eh, wasn't it the Russians who invaded?


Georgia invaded South Ossetia.

Russia responded and invaded South Ossetia to push the Georgians back into Georgia.

It's believed the Georgians have been pushed out of South Ossetia and it appears the fighting has spread to another breakaway region, Abkhazia.

It sounds like the Russians are going to take over Abkhazia, push the Georgians out of there, and absorb both areas into Russia as they wish to be.

What remains unseen is how much further this will go.  Russia may decide to invade Georgia proper, overthrow the pro-western anti-russian gov't, and set up a new gov't.  They could even annex all of Georgia, although that doesn't appear to be a very smart move... at least to me.

----------


## ClayTrainor

> Eh, wasn't it the Russians who invaded?


Well, IMO, there is responsibility on both sides.

The Georgians have been instigating this since they initially killed 10 russian peacekeepers and injured something like 30 in south ossetia

This is what pulled the Russians into the conflict.  

The georgians are now the ones commiting genocide on the innocent civilians of south ossetia.

Russians have been warning about US intervention in surrounding regions for a while.  While i dont fully agree with the russians, I believe they mean what they say.

If the US gets involved, or already is involved (which is likely and currently being investigated by the russians) helping the georgians kill Russians... well $#@! is gonna go down... we can assume that...


It is hard to get a clear picture of what's goign on though... there's so much propagandha to sift through.  I tend to trust the reports from as close to the conflict as i can get.

----------


## Cowlesy

I know you all want to go "blehhhhh", but Alex Jones is live right now with his Sunday show and it sounds like he's got his act together with all the news reports.

His initial 10minutes sounded extremely accurate from what I have read so far.

Don't shoot me Kludge, but, www.infowars.net

----------


## ClayTrainor

> I know you all want to go "blehhhhh", but Alex Jones is live right now with his Sunday show and it sounds like he's got his act together with all the news reports.
> 
> His initial 10minutes sounded extremely accurate from what I have read so far.
> 
> Don't shoot me Kludge, but, www.infowars.net


excellent, thanks for the heads up.

----------


## The Good Doctor

Alex Jones in reporting that the US is involved. A sneak attack by US special forces. They are saying that Ghost Recon II box for Xbox is eerily similar to the current dispute with Russia/Georgia.




> I'm sure we will release a statement condemning this.  We have to make sure we're involved in the mess. We our the world police after all.

----------


## Hiki

> Well, IMO, there is responsibility on both sides.
> 
> The Georgians have been instigating this since they initially killed 10 russian peacekeepers and injured something like 30 in south ossetia
> 
> This is what pulled the Russians into the conflict.  
> 
> The georgians are now the ones commiting genocide on the innocent civilians of south ossetia.
> 
> Russians have been warning about US intervention in surrounding regions for a while.  While i dont fully agree with the russians, I believe they mean what they say.
> ...


Well yeah sure but South-Ossetia is still Georgia territory right? And to me it seems that Russia is the one here who is the devil, when it comes to old Soviet Union-territories Russia still seems to think that they own them and it's no secret that they keep $#@!ing up those places all the time. 
And there sure is a lot of propaganda to go along, but nobody should believe a word from the Russians, I know enough of my country's history with Russia in 1939 to not trust them in these kinds of issues.

----------


## The Good Doctor

Hey Cowlesy I love Alex. No "blehhhhh" here!




> I know you all want to go "blehhhhh", but Alex Jones is live right now with his Sunday show and it sounds like he's got his act together with all the news reports.
> 
> His initial 10minutes sounded extremely accurate from what I have read so far.
> 
> Don't shoot me Kludge, but, www.infowars.net

----------


## devil21

> Well yeah sure but South-Ossetia is still Georgia territory right? And to me it seems that Russia is the one here who is the devil, when it comes to old Soviet Union-territories Russia still seems to think that they own them and it's no secret that they keep $#@!ing up those places all the time. 
> And there sure is a lot of propaganda to go along, but nobody should believe a word from the Russians, I know enough of my country's history with Russia in 1939 to not trust them in these kinds of issues.


My understanding is that South Ossetia won its independence from Georgia in 1992, militarily, and is not a Georgian territory but rather an independent, though unrecognized internationally, state.  South Ossetia contains mostly Russian people and considers itself Russian, not Georgian.  When Georgia invaded, the Russians responded with a bit of "shock and awe" to put Georgia back in its place.  I find no fault with Russia since it clearly looks like Georgia initiated the conflict and Russia responded with force.  I think Georgia expected full US support and wrote a check they couldnt cash, hoping we would cash it for them.  Its not happening.
Interesting to see that Georgia's prime minister is Israeli.  Not surprising though.  I think Israel is slowly but surely trying to implant "double agents" into every government they can.

----------


## RSLudlum

I wonder exactly how this will affect the markets tomorrow?

----------


## Andrew-Austin

> Try here:
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/


Some informative, and humorous comments on this article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...rgia-grow.html





> I live in Russia and do business in Ossettia, I am familiar with this long ongoing dispute between Georgia and Russia. As usual the Western Media and that great peacemaker George W Bush, dont understand the facts.
> Georgia, that poor little nation that just happen to have
> a bunch of American troops doing manouvers with them for the past 6 weeks, suddenly decide to attack the Capital of South Ossettia, at night with tanks and artillary etc. They, the peacful Georgians, killed about 1400 people, including many women and children.
> The Russians then moved in their tanks and soldiers to protect the local population, which includes 85% holding Russian Passports and evacuated the women and children and set up field hopitals to provide medical help to the wounded.
> Our western journalists should learn the facts before believing that so called Democratic,(my rear end) Georgian President, he is a better liar than George and Tony put together.
> His goal is to pitch the West against Russia and protect him and his Cronies to get Georgia into NATO.
> There are much closer ties between the citizens of Ossettia and Russia than with Georgia and even though the population is small, these people have lived there for generations.
> Georgia was the aggressor in this case and as usual, Bush was inciting them to give Russia a headache, killing more civilians, to add to his toll in Iraq.
> For those of you out there who dont understand the local history, the Russians are really much less aggressive than our NATO Ally the good old USA. Keep your noses out of Russia / Georgia relations, its not in your backyard.





> Let's be clear here: The Georgian government violated international law and committed war crimes by an unprovoked attack on South Ossetia, which they hope to **forcibly** return to Georgia from the state of independence which it achieved at the behest of its own citizens in 1992. Unreported in western media, due to bias, are these facts: 1. Most of the deaths in this conflict were caused by the invasion by Georgian forces, and by their use of artilery to shell innocent civilian neighbourhoods in cities. 2. Russia has a **duty** under pre-existing agreements to protect this territory from outside aggression by anyone. 3. It seems that media are willfully ignoring the reality behind this war.





> Sakashvilli thought he could attack S. Ossetia and get away with it. Choosing the opening of the Olympics to do so. He also hoped that he would drag the west into the conflict. This man has caused the problem and now after seeing the Russian response has whined about a cease fire. He played with fire and got severely burned. I just wonder how much longer his countrymen will put up with this overblown fool.





> This is very tragic - but at the same time I can't help feeling the paradox when Western leaders calls for respect for the sovering territory of Georgia.
> 
> What is the difference between breakaway provinces of Georgia and Kosovo? If anything these provinces in Georgia have been defacto independent of Georgia since 1992, no negotiated solutions is realistic etc.
> 
> Another question is where the Western support was. I am sure that Georgia would not be so stupid, when applying for EU and NATO membership, that they would have launched such an attack without Western approval. It all seems to be another foreign policy blunder of our own making.





> If anyone had been watching the news on Satellite (other than the BBC). You would have seen that Georgia has been rattling its sabres for the last year or so (mainly at the other state Abkahzia). Apparently the population at large didn't want their president. The "Georgian " civilian casualties are from the population who do not want to be Georgian. I have never understood why their President always has an EU flag in the background, its not part of the EU.

----------


## Zippyjuan

South Ossetia has been fighting for its independence from Georgia since about 1990.  In 2006 they had a referendum where it was claimed that 90% of the population was in favor of independence.  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6140448.stm They have been fighting off and on since.  In the latest round, Georgia asked for a cease fire but then turned around and invaded anyways to try to drive the sepratists out.   Russia has since come in to support the Ossetians. Georgia says they have now unilaterally called a cease fire and says they have pulled their troops back but Russia says they are  still there and fighting.  Russia has bombed parts of Georgia including the international airport in their capitol.  

Putin has made little secret about his desire to get all the old USSR countries back together- under Russia's control of course. They have been using control of energy supplies including oil and natural gas to try to blackmail some of them.  Georgia would be very nice for them to regain control of since it is an important conduit for their oil shipments and they would like access to their seaports to be able to ship their oil to other countries.  He flew home from watching the Olympic Games in China to supervise the military activities going on.

----------


## The Good Doctor

I bet it will drop 1.5%




> I wonder exactly how this will affect the markets tomorrow?

----------


## Hiki

> South Ossetia has been fighting for its independence from Georgia since about 1990.  In 2006 they had a referendum where it was claimed that 90% of the population was in favor of independence.  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6140448.stm They have been fighting off and on since.  In the latest round, Georgia asked for a cease fire but then turned around and invaded anyways to try to drive the sepratists out.   Russia has since come in to support the Ossetians. Georgia says they have now unilaterally called a cease fire and says they have pulled their troops back but Russia says they are  still there and fighting.  Russia has bombed parts of Georgia including the international airport in their capitol.  
> 
> Putin has made little secret about his desire to get all the old USSR countries back together- under Russia's control of course. They have been using control of energy supplies including oil and natural gas to try to blackmail some of them.  Georgia would be very nice for them to regain control of since it is an important conduit for their oil shipments and they would like access to their seaports to be able to ship their oil to other countries.  He flew home from watching the Olympic Games in China to supervise the military activities going on.


Oh, well excuse me then. Didn't know this stuff. The Georgian president should be ashamed of even calling their situation similar to Finland in 1939.

----------


## ClayTrainor

> Well yeah sure but South-Ossetia is still Georgia territory right? And to me it seems that Russia is the one here who is the devil, when it comes to old Soviet Union-territories Russia still seems to think that they own them and it's no secret that they keep $#@!ing up those places all the time. 
> And there sure is a lot of propaganda to go along, but nobody should believe a word from the Russians, I know enough of my country's history with Russia in 1939 to not trust them in these kinds of issues.


I hear ya man...

This is a true infowar.

----------


## revolutionary8

TBILISI, Georgia — Russian tanks and troops moved through the separatist enclave of South Ossetia and advanced on the city of Gori in central Georgia on Sunday night, for the first time directly assaulting a Georgian city with ground forces after three days of heavy fighting, Georgian officials said.

Georgian tanks were dug into positions outside Gori and planning to defend the city, said Shota Utiashvili, an official in Georgia’s interior ministry. He said the city of Gori was coming under artillery and tank fire. There was no immediate comment from Russia.

A senior Western diplomat said it was unclear whether Russia intended a full invasion of Georgia. “They seem to have gone beyond the logical stopping point” to retake the separatist regions, he said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/11/wo...in&oref=slogin

I have no idea why Georgia would think Russia would lay down. Perhaps it is because the President has the assurance that America and Israel will fight it's battles. 

on a side note- I posted an article earlier titled "Zbigniew Brzezinski: the Empire's Adviser The outrageous strategy to destroy Russia"
by Arthur Lepic
(Voltaire, October 22, 2004)

I was able to bring up the article (link was dead-the site has been down) by using cache-  The article has now disappeared from Google all together.  It's censorship.

----------


## Cowlesy

Look at www.drudgereport.com right now, and understand in advance what you may actually see on the news tomorrow.

"Georgians Beg: Help Us"
"Ethnic Cleansing"

----------


## revolutionary8

> Look at www.drudgereport.com right now, and understand in advance what you may actually see on the news tomorrow.
> 
> "Georgians Beg: Help Us"
> "Ethnic Cleansing"


*We helped in Iraq - now help us, beg Georgians*
As Russia forces its neighbour to retreat from South Ossetia, the people of Gori tell our correspondent of betrayal by the West

As a Russian jet bombed fields around his village, Djimali Avago, a Georgian farmer, asked me: Why wont America and Nato help us? If they wont help us now, why did we help them in Iraq?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4500362.ece

----------


## Fox McCloud

I just hope that Americans don't suddenly have a "hey! These are people that really need our help! We shouldn't be leaving them behind!" type attitude...if that happens and becomes wide-spread, we could see another authorization for Bush to wage war...or, worse yet, and actual declaration of war.

I hope it doesn't come to this...and I doubt it will, but let's..hope this doesn't happen.

----------


## SevenEyedJeff

I'd like to hear what Ron Paul has to say on this skirmish, or WW3, or whatever you want to call it. We did hear Ron say some big events are about to occur.

----------


## ClayTrainor

> I'd like to hear what Ron Paul has to say on this skirmish, or WW3, or whatever you want to call it. We did hear Ron say some big events are about to occur.


yea same here. I hope he can get on AJ this week.

----------


## Fox McCloud

> I'd like to hear what Ron Paul has to say on this skirmish, or WW3, or whatever you want to call it. We did hear Ron say some big events are about to occur.


didn't he make some quote that liberty would be going dormant for a while?

----------


## CasualApathy

I hope Ron Paul is enjoying a well deserved vacation.

----------


## Drknows

> Well yeah sure but South-Ossetia is still Georgia territory right? And to me it seems that Russia is the one here who is the devil, when it comes to old Soviet Union-territories Russia still seems to think that they own them and it's no secret that they keep $#@!ing up those places all the time. 
> And there sure is a lot of propaganda to go along, but nobody should believe a word from the Russians, I know enough of my country's history with Russia in 1939 to not trust them in these kinds of issues.


Yeah South-Ossetia is still Georgia territory for one reason ONLY, Most of the international community meaning NATO members refused to recognized their Independence back in the 90s because they are mainly russian sympathizers.

which is kind of hypocritical when you think about all the other countries we support.

Everyone is in the wrong as i see it Georgia should leave that territory alone, Russia should mind its own business  as should we. Why the hell is Russia giving them all passports and citizenship? Why are we sending troops to train Georgians? 

You know why? because its a proxy war cold war style.


Just look at the propaganda from both sides you will find the truth.

----------


## devil21

Its ironic that the Georgians, a US ally, are speaking out against house to house raids by the Russians and fear of innocents being shot during those raids.  Hello!  You been watching the Iraq War for the last 5 years at all????




> My bags are already packed,” Georgi, a 56-year-old resident of Tirdznisi, said. *“We are afraid that the Russians will come here and kill us.* People would not go if we had a strong army but they don’t believe in our army any more.”





> Miriyan Gogolashvili, of Tkviav, said: “The Russians will be here tomorrow. They want to show us and the world how powerful they are. Tomorrow it will be Ukraine and nobody in the West is doing anything to stop them. Why were our soldiers in Kosovo and Iraq if we don’t get any help from the West now?” he asked.


Welcome to the Iraqi's world Georgi.

----------


## Conza88

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DfaUfJNGoE

"Georgia is fighting for world peace, and future world order"  ...

the rhetoric is being laid down..

----------


## pacelli

Hot off the press, 1 hour ago, hidden in an article about rising oil prices as a result of the conflict:




> U.S. President *George W. Bush* on Monday sharply criticized Moscow's harsh military crackdown in the former Soviet republic of Georgia, saying *the violence is unacceptable and Russia's response is disproportionate*.
> 
> On Sunday, Vice President *Dick Cheney told Georgia's pro-American president, Mikhail Saakashvili, that "Russian aggression must not go unanswered, and that its continuation would have serious consequences for its relations with the United States,"* Cheney's office reported.
> 
> While Georgia said its troops have retreated from South Ossetia province and are honoring a cease-fire, Russia disputed the claim, and *U.S. officials said Moscow was expanding its blitz into new areas.*


http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i...BB-tAD92G1UO80

----------


## Cowlesy

> Hot off the press, 1 hour ago, hidden in an article about rising oil prices as a result of the conflict:
> 
> 
> 
> http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i...BB-tAD92G1UO80


The haze is so thick on this one.

----------


## pacelli

> The haze is so thick on this one.


Totally.  Next up:




> Tbilisi, August 11: Up to 50 Russian fighter jets attacked Georgia overnight, Georgia's foreign ministry said on Monday.
> 
> "Several dozen Russian bombers are in the Georgian skies and have been attacking throughout the country over the past several hours," the foreign ministry said in a statement.
> 
> "Overnight, as many as 50 Russian bombers were reported operating simultaneuosly over Georgia."


Anyone care to bet they'll be going after that pipeline they missed the other day?

Another report that the bombing is going on throughout the country:




> "Several dozen Russian bombers are in the Georgian skies and have been attacking throughout the country over the past several hours," the foreign ministry said in a statement.

----------


## pacelli

Vladimir Putin criticizes US over South Ossetia:




> "It is a shame that some of *our partners are not helping us but, essentially, are hindering us*," Putin said. "I mean ... *the transfer by the United States of a Georgian contingent in Iraq with military transport planes practically to the conflict zone."*
> 
> "The very scale of this cynicism is astonishing -- *the attempt to turn white into black, black into white and to adeptly portray victims of aggression as aggressors and place the responsibility for the consequences of the aggression on the victims."*


http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LB34651.htm

----------


## Hiki

> Yeah South-Ossetia is still Georgia territory for one reason ONLY, Most of the international community meaning NATO members refused to recognized their Independence back in the 90s because they are mainly russian sympathizers.
> 
> which is kind of hypocritical when you think about all the other countries we support.
> 
> Everyone is in the wrong as i see it Georgia should leave that territory alone, Russia should mind its own business  as should we. Why the hell is Russia giving them all passports and citizenship? Why are we sending troops to train Georgians? 
> 
> You know why? because its a proxy war cold war style.
> 
> 
> Just look at the propaganda from both sides you will find the truth.


Yeah, I've read more and it seems that Georgia has been attacking South Ossetia for a while and actually started this war by invading. It's no miracle that Russia went to the aid because as I've said they think they own their old territories and are trying to get em back or at least make them puppet states. 
Georgia on the other hand is clearly trying to get the sympathy of the West and to play it's way into NATO with this conflict, as you can see the president is asking for help from US and EU all the time. I think its ridiculous how he compared this conflict with Finland in 1939.
It's all very confusing and I wouldn't like to pick sides in this, both are aggressors and immoral in their doings.

But I have to say that my respect for our Foreign Minister Alexander Stubb just went up a few notches. He canceled his vacation and yesterday he flew into Georgia with the french prime minister to negotiate with the Georgian president, and as we can see they offered a cease fire  Tomorrow he's flying into Moscow to negotiate a cease fire on the Russian behalf.

----------


## New York For Paul

"So the situation is far more complicated than pro-American country (Georgia) vs anti-American country (Russia). The Georgians may be our friends but our tenuous alliance on certain key issues with Russia is more important to our long term national interests."

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/193558.php

----------


## Kyoon

What the illuminati media article (1) hides: the pipeline is a complete hoax.
One of these hoaxes that is so valuable that the illuminati actually went as far as to actually build it, long after it was clear that there was no oil to be transported.

Explained in 1999, first and as usual so far only, by End Times Prophet.

As usual, ask Google about it with MattMarriott [subject]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...+pipeline+hoax


*Note*:
(1) "This is no pipeline war but an assault on Russian influence" - article from illuminati media, The Guardian
http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php?t=221717

----------


## CasualApathy

*Russians Refuse to Back Down.*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GucntcSGlZ8


*Georgia releases footage of 'Russian jet attack' - 21 Apr 08*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkeCv...eature=related


*Saakashvili Runs For Cover*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_t8wPpN6DlQ

----------


## CasualApathy

*Saakashvili’s Address to Nation*  (In broken english)

Dear compatriots! In this very important, decisive and difficult period for our country, I want to describe the current situation and tell you about the ways of helping the country out of this situation.

First of all, I want to tell you that what is happening now against Georgia is obviously a military  intervention planned months or years ago, which aims, at least, to occupy or annex South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and as a final result, to occupy entire Georgia.

That intervention force, which entered Georgia, is very big, very serious and of course, it contains a fatal threat to the Georgian statehood. Today the freedom and future of each of us is under a huge blow. An attempt of repeated occupation and enslaving of Georgia, depriving our country of its independence is underway. No doubt that it is real, against the background of latest statements. If previously they said that they responded to the operation launched by us in South Ossetia – and you know that we have not launched anything until the last minute – yesterday and the day before yesterday official statements were made that the operation aimed at changing the Georgian authorities, changing Georgia’s course. It is translated from their language as the end to Georgia’s independence. Attacks are carried out against the Kodori gorge in Upper Abkhazia, attacks are carried in the direction of Abkhazia and Samegrelo. Yesterday there was an attempt to occupy Gori, which was repelled by our armed forces. I want to say that our armed forces are fighting very well. Their moral is increasing. Of course, I regret greatly and this is the war. Of course, we have casualties, but our enemies have much more casualties. I declare about it basing on their sources. But this is a very serious test and in reality the success of our forces is based on their unimaginable heroism. Our enemies did not expect – and they themselves said about it in the official statement that they came across the resistance of the Georgian armed forces which was 12 fold more than they imagined.

But I want to say with full responsibility that we want to immediately end this military confrontation, we want to end the war, which we have not launched, we want to stop Russia’s intervention. We are ready and I have confirmed my support to the plan of French President Sarkozy and Foreign Minister Kouchner. Kouchner was here; President Sarkozy will arrive tomorrow. We are ready to immediately sign the agreement on ceasefire and non-resumption of confrontation.

We are expecting the visits of several European leaders, tomorrow, as I already said, President Sarkozy will arrive. Many European ministers are presently visiting Georgia. Today a great amount of humanitarian aid will start arriving from the entire world. The first planes from France will land within two hours and others will arrive afterwards, including from Turkey, Ukraine, Germany, Denmark, other European states.       

I want to tell to those people, who have left the conflict zone – we will return you all back and until this conflict is over, I gave the strictest instructions, not to leave even one person without attention. I want to say that of course, there was a chaos within first hours, we were not preparing for it and they attacked us treacherously. If you remember, I was constantly increasing the military budget and many used to say, why he is doing that - just for this occasion, for this unfortunate day. We failed to increase it as much as I wanted.   

It is not worth saying but if we had not lost time on inner confrontation last autumn, we would have been much better prepared. But today we are well-prepared and we have a motivation to defend our country respectively, to save the independence and statehood of our country, to save the future of each of us, to give a proper response to our enemies.

I want to say with full responsibility, we should save our country ourselves. Nobody else will be able to do it. Of course, international support is important, international diplomatic involvement is decisive, but if we are not very mobilized, if we do not show heroism, if we do not resist this huge brutal force, without our dedication Georgia will not be able to stop this confrontation.

All what is happening now – bombings, especially those of civilian facilities, at nights, shelling - has the only objective, to demoralize our society, to seed panic in the society. I want to thank everybody, those tens of thousands of Tbilisites, who came out in the streets last night and expressed their huge support towards the Georgian statehood. I want to thank those people – I traveled from the east to the west and backwards – although Russian aircrafts were flying above us and although the highway was shelled during our movement, I saw Georgian national flags flying on the cars and I saw Georgian flags flying on the balconies - this is our response, our unity, our bravery, our endurance, and we will certainly liberate entire Georgia. This is what is happening now, this is Georgia’s struggle for national liberation, this is a response to the war imposed on Georgia, a response by the Georgian society’s resistance, the Georgian society’s heroism in order to maintain liberty, statehood, and future of our children. The officials of foreign countries should never define the future of our children. The future of our children and our country should be ruled by the democratic government elected by the Georgian society, which will act in the interests of the people, in the interests of multi-ethnic society, and will never dance under other’s pipe and time will never come, when we cleaned the shoes of foreign officials. We helped Georgia up from its knees within past years. We should not allow anybody to make us knee again. Georgia should find its way out of this situation. Georgia should manage to restore peace and to establish good relations, including with Russians, which attacked us.

I also want to address the Russian society – of course, all media outlets are blocked now, but information is leaking – we do not fight with the Russian people. We are not angry with the Russian society. Much injustice has been carried out against Georgia, against each Georgian. But time will come - I am sure - when we will have very good relations again. But we will defend the freedom of our country, the independence of our country – with our teeth, to the last drop of blood. God bless each of us. God bless freedom of Georgia. God bless our soldiers, our heroes. Long live Georgia.

Source: http://www.geotimes.ge/index.php?m=home&newsid=11873

----------


## Liberty Star

This is getting serious, there is news of new Russian blitz and US is protesting Russian  "disproportionate response". 
 That sounds like a familiar phrase from recent Lebanon-Israel war news.

----------


## Fox McCloud

> *U.S. can't do much to stop Russia*
> 
> WASHINGTON - The Russian Bear is back, and the United States doesn't seem to be able to do much about it.
> 
> The United States saw trouble coming between Russia and Georgia, a former Soviet republic turned nemesis, but didn't have enough leverage, focus or resolve to intervene. Even Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, a specialist on the old Soviet Union, may have misjudged the combustible combination of Russian grievance and ambition.
> 
> The Bush administration's assurances of solidarity with a young democracy also may have given Georgia's silver-tongued, U.S.-educated leader a little too much swagger as he picked a playground fight he never could win on his own.
> 
> *Using a sledgehammer to swat a fly*, Russian tanks and bombers widened their assault Monday on Georgia, the closest friend the U.S. has among the slowly democratizing former Soviet republics.


read the rest here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26145350

I bolded the part I thought was interesting.....talk about mind-control/ideals manipulation.

I wonder if the US will simply sit back and do nothing, if it'll fight the Russians indirectly, or we will get directly involved....only time will tell.

----------


## LiveFree79

> read the rest here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26145350
> 
> I bolded the part I thought was interesting.....talk about mind-control/ideals manipulation.
> 
> I wonder if the US will simply sit back and do nothing, if it'll fight the Russians indirectly, or we will get directly involved....only time will tell.



Of course we will sit back and do nothing.  So will the rest of the world.  The world including the U.S. are pretty much a bunch of pussies nowadays.  They'll go fight a pseudo war on terror against a bunch of ragheads in sandals and IEDs but when it comes to a real enemy like Russia (with real tanks and airplanes and fighting ability) US and the West don't do $#@!!  Pathetic if you ask me.  Russia is basically proving to the world that no one can stop them or no one has the balls to.  This sets a TERRIBLE precedent.  Again the US is at the $#@!ing mercy of another country because of politics (i.e. we need Russia when it comes to Iran) or resources i.e. oil.  An America 50 years ago would have had a much harsher and more serious response than we have had in the past few days.  Whether or not Georgia or Russia started this, Russia has used an overwhelming and disproportionate amount of force.  It's one thing to liberate SO from Georgia but it's another to make inroads into the rest of the country.  Who's next?  Ukraine?  Czech Republic? Poland?  Who's to stop Russia?  US?  Haha we can barely win the war on terror.  Even with all our technology we are no match for Russia right now.  We are stretched way too thin and the world knows this.  America loves to talk big and go pick on the little guys like Iran and Iraq but when it comes to a real bully they turn tail and run.  Talk is cheap.

Germany, France, etc. none of them will do $#@!.  They rely on Russia for natural gas and oil.

----------


## TER

I'm just not buying much of this.  Call me naive, but I think this administration has cut a deal with the Russians:  "We'll stand back (noisily, of course) while you take control of Georgia, if you stand back and let us deal with Iran".

Seems like a plan to placate both administrations.

Sadly, I think the prospects of Israel striking Iran just went up many times fold...

----------


## Fox McCloud

Hmm, that'd be an interesting World War (assuming you extrapolate, in a large degree, what you said)---a Russia+USA alliance in the third World War.

It'll never happen though :-P

----------


## TER

> Hmm, that'd be an interesting World War (assuming you extrapolate, in a large degree, what you said)---a Russia+USA alliance in the third World War.
> 
> It'll never happen though :-P


Not so much as an alliance.  Rather mutual concessions.

----------


## Fox McCloud

> Not so much as an alliance.  Rather mutual concessions.


Yes, I know, I was aware of what you were mentioning, I was merely throwing that out there as an idea that suddenly popped into my head.

Either way, if what you say is, indeed, correct, then it certainly does not bode well for us....also, given Russia's nature, what would prevent them from suddenly saying "How dare you attack Iran?" then trying to force us out--that'd create a huge conflict between our two nations.

----------


## TER

> Yes, I know, I was aware of what you were mentioning, I was merely throwing that out there as an idea that suddenly popped into my head.
> 
> Either way, if what you say is, indeed, correct, then it certainly does not bode well for us....also, given Russia's nature, what would prevent them from suddenly saying "How dare you attack Iran?" then trying to force us out--that'd create a huge conflict between our two nations.


So true.  I hadn't even thought of that.  This is way too much negative news for one day...  I'm going to bed to hopefully find some peace.  Good night my fellow compatriots...

----------


## Primbs

The million dollar question: Does Russia stay or does Europe persuade Russia to leave?

More worrisome, Does the US persuade Russia to leave?

Here is a color map of the situation and commentary.

http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/20080811Georgia

"The Republic of Georgia is an important gateway for future Russian military operations, especially those involving Turkey, Syria, and Iran. As tensions continue to mount between Israel and Iran as well as the U.S., Russia, apparently still under the ever-influential control of Putin, is not about to sit idly on the sidelines."

----------


## ItsTime

To bad the American people will not see themselves in this mirror

----------


## Primbs

"For some reason, folks are forgetting how we helped engineer this little fiasco that has so far cost thousands of lives as Russia reasserts their hegemony over the areas that were formerly within their sphere of influence.  

*"When Bill Clinton thought it would be a good idea to commit American military forces to facilitate various Yugoslavian provinces breaking away from Serbian-controlled Yugoslavia, we set the precedent that re-drawing nations for the benefit of concentrations of minority populations was a good idea." * 

"Now that Russia is following the same example in South Ossetia that we set in Kosovo there’s a big sense of outrage.  We ought to own up to the mess we created, and start looking at these kinds of issues with a broader view, and with an understanding of what the consequences of the exercise of our military power really are."

*"Bill Clinton failed to realize that in a world full of tragedies, many with long historical roots, we cannot repair them by lobbing JDAM’s at some country in judgment of whom has treated whom more badly*.  Were we to apply that concept globally, American forces would be engaged across the globe rendering our terrible verdict on one side or the other of countless historical disputes."

http://www.bvbl.net/index.php/2008/0...es-a-haunting/

----------


## acptulsa

Well every cloud has a silver lining.  And this one does, too--though it isn't much of one.  I mean, the whole situation sucks.  That said, one must admit that at least John McCain is now completely disabused of the notion that Putin is "president of Germany".  Seems to have it straight, now.

----------


## Fox McCloud

supposedly Russia has said it'll be pulling out, still, the Russian offensive continues: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26116598

----------


## JosephTheLibertarian

> This is getting serious, there is news of new Russian blitz and US is protesting Russian  "disproportionate response". 
>  That sounds like a familiar phrase from recent Lebanon-Israel war news.


If the Russians really wanted Georgia, wouldn't it be taken already? They don't look to be going for the capital of Georgia itself.

----------


## Zolah

> Well every cloud has a silver lining.



Apart from mushroom clouds  This conflict seems to be simmering down now though, hopefully by the end of the week everything in Ossetia will be stable.

----------


## JosephTheLibertarian

'Georgia will never surrender' 08/12/08

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzzUlFthnsk

----------


## Fox McCloud

> Apart from mushroom clouds  This conflict seems to be simmering down now though, hopefully by the end of the week everything in Ossetia will be stable.


I'm not fully convinced it has settled out...that said, if it is truly simmering down, if the International community demands that Russia re-give up South Ossetia, I could see things flairing up again, or there being a problem in the future.

----------


## Doktor_Jeep

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=13285

The Real Aggressor
Georgian invasion of South Ossetia sets the stage for a wider war 
by Justin Raimondo 
The anti-Russian bias of the Western media is really something to behold: "Russia Invades Georgia," "Russia Attacks Georgia," and variations thereof have been some of the choice headlines reporting events in the Caucasus, but the reality is not only quite different, but the exact opposite. Sometimes this comes out in the third or fourth paragraph of the reportage, in which it is admitted that the Georgians tried to "retake" the "breakaway province" of South Ossetia. The Georgian bombing campaign and the civilian casualties  if they are mentioned at all  are downplayed and presented as subject to dispute. 

The Georgians have been openly engaging in a military buildup since last year, and President Mikhail Saakashvili and his party have been proclaiming from the rooftops their aim of re-conquering South Ossetia (and rebellious Abkhazia, while they're at it). Avid readers of Antiwar.com saw this coming. In a column entitled "Wars to Watch Out For," I wrote:

"As President Mikheil Saakashvili deflowers his own revolution and shuts down the opposition media, he could well try to divert attention away from his political problems by ginning up a fresh conflict with the breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, both of which are protected by Russian troops and regional militias."

That's what Western reporters aren't telling their readers: the South Ossetians (and the Abkhazians) have had de facto independence since 1991, when they rose up against their "democratic" central government, which had banned regional parties from participating in elections. They beat back the Georgian army, which, nonetheless, inflicted a lot of casualties and damage. A low-level war has been in progress ever since, with Saakashvili and his ultra-nationalist party using the rebels as a foil to divert attention from their repressive domestic policies and Georgia's sad status as an economic basket case. As I wrote way back at the beginning of this year:

"Saakashvili, the great 'democrat,' is busy charging anyone who opposes him with being a pawn of the Russians (and therefore guilty of treason), but the West is calling on him to restore civil liberties  and, in an apparent effort to propitiate his Western benefactors, he has lifted some restrictions and called new elections. Widespread and growing opposition to his strong-arm tactics, even among many of his former supporters, spells political trouble for Saakashvili and his corrupt cohorts, however  and an appeal to Georgian ultra-nationalism (which was always the real ideological motivation of the Rose Revolutionaries) would bolster him in the polls and provide a much-needed distraction, at least from the ruling party's point of view."

What's particularly disgusting is the spectacle of the fraudulent Saakashvili's smug mug all over Western television  the BBC and Bloomberg, for starters  invoking his great love of "democracy" and "freedom" and calling on the U.S. to intervene in the name of supposedly shared "values." What drivel! Up until very recently, Saakashvili has been busy rounding up his political opponents and charging them with espionage, as his police beat demonstrators in the streets. When this happened, even our somnolent media sat up and took notice, but they seem to have forgotten. 

Saakashvili uses the Western media as a platform to broadcast his great love for "freedom" and make the case against the Russian "aggressors," comparing the present conflict with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 1980s  and even the bloody 1956 repression of the Hungarians! This is nonsense. Russia is not the Soviet Union, the Iron Curtain has long since been melted down for scrap metal, and, if anything, Saakashvili resembles the Hungarian satraps of the Kremlin rather than the heroic freedom-fighters, given his absolute fealty to his foreign masters in Washington, to whom he appeals for help in putting down an internal rebellion. 

In any case, it wasn't too hard to have seen this coming a mile away, or to predict the American government's response. As I wrote in "Wars To Watch Out For":

"In the event of an outbreak of hostilities, expect the U.S. to do what they have done for the duration of Georgia's political crisis: proffer unconditional support to Saakashvili. With Russia aiding and giving political and diplomatic support to the Abkhazians and the Ossetians, and the Americans letting loose a flood of military aid to Tbilisi, this could be the first theater of actual conflict in the new cold war."

Which is precisely what has occurred. The United States is denouncing the Russians as aggressors in the UN Security Council and accusing the Kremlin of engaging in a policy of "regime change," in Ambassador Khalilzad's phrase. The Russian response: "regime change" is "an American invention," but, hey, in Saakashvili's case, it might not be such a bad idea.

They have a point. The Georgian strongman is a thug and an opportunist who does an excellent imitation of George W. Bush-times-10: whereas GWB merely implies his political opponents are traitors to the nation, Saakashvili comes right out and says it  then drags them into court on trumped up charges of high treason. GWB has presided over a regime that has legalized torture, but only for foreign "terrorists" (José Padilla excepted). Saakashvili, on the other hand, throws his domestic political opponents  whom he labels "terrorists"  in jail and tortures his own countrymen. Georgia's notorious prisons are chock full of political dissidents. GWB justifies his aggression by invoking "democracy" and the doctrine of "preemption," while Saakashvili doesn't bother with such theoretical niceties, denying his aggression against South Ossetia in defiance of the plain facts.

In short: if you love GWB, you'll love President Saakashvili. Therefore it's no surprise John McCain is portraying the Georgians as the good guys and demanding that Russian troops leave "sovereign Georgian territory" without preconditions or delay. After all, when your chief foreign policy adviser has up until very recently been a paid shill for the Georgian government, what else could we expect? As I've pointed out on a few occasions in this space, Mad John has been spoiling for a fight with the Russians  in the Caucasus and elsewhere  for years, going so far as to travel to Georgia to proclaim his sympathy for Saakashvili's cause. 

What's really interesting, however, is how Barack Obama has taken up this same cause, albeit with less vehemence than the GOP nominee. As Politico.com reported:

"When violence broke out in the Caucasus on Friday morning, John McCain quickly issued a statement that was far more strident toward the Russians than that of President Bush, Barack Obama, and much of the West. But, as Russian warplanes pounded Georgian targets far beyond South Ossetia this weekend, Bush, Obama, and others have moved closer to McCain's initial position."

While calling for mediation and international peacekeepers, Obama went with the War Party's line that Russia, not Georgia, is the aggressor, as the Times of London reports: "Obama accused Russia of escalating the crisis 'through it's clear and continued violation of Georgia's sovereignty and territorial integrity.'" While his first statement on the outbreak of hostilities was more along the lines of "Can't we all get along?", the New York Times notes:

"Mr. Obama did harden his rhetoric later on Friday, shortly before getting on a plane for a vacation in Hawaii. His initial statement, an adviser said, was released before there were confirmed reports of the Russian invasion. In his later statement, Mr. Obama said, 'What is clear is that Russia has invaded Georgia's sovereign  has encroached on Georgia's sovereignty, and it is very important for us to resolve this issue as quickly as possible.'"

This nonsense about Georgia's alleged "sovereignty" rides roughshod over the reality of the Ossetians' apparent determination to free themselves from Saakashvili's grip, and it's the buzzword that identifies a shill for the Georgians. 

"I condemn Russia's aggressive actions," said Obama, "and reiterate my call for an immediate cease-fire." This cease-fire business is meant to feed directly into the Georgians' contention that they have offered to stop the conflict, even as they continue military operations in South Ossetia, which have already cost the lives of over a thousand of that country's inhabitants. 

That didn't stop the McCainiacs from attacking Obama as a tool of the Kremlin. Sunday the news talk shows were abuzz with rumors of Democratic discontent over Obama's seeming inability to hit back at McCain's viciously negative campaign, yet it's much worse than that  it's not an unwillingness, but an inherent inability to do so. I hate to cite Andrew Sullivan favorably, but he was one of the first to note the convergence of the Obama camp and the McCain campaign on such central issues as Iran, and the process continues with this confluence of opinion on the Russian question. While the Obama people have dutifully pointed out that Randy Scheunemann, McCain's foreign policy guru, earned hundreds of thousands of dollars for his public relations firm as a paid lobbyist for the Georgians, their own candidate's position on the matter differs little from McCain's, except, as the New York Times notes, in terms of "style."

GWB recently assured Saakashvili that he would do his best to get the Georgians into NATO, but the Europeans  particularly the Germans  are balking, and this foray by the Georgian Napoleon into a direct conflict with the Russians seems to confirm their initial reluctance. The Euros are no dummies: they know Saakashvili's recklessness could plunge the entire region into an armed conflict that would resemble World War I in its utter stupidity.

I've written at length about the economic and political interests that stand to profit from a war in the Caucasus, and I won't repeat myself here except to note that the timing of this  with attacking Iran on the War Party's agenda  should alert us to the importance of what is happening. Russia has not only been opposed to Iran's victimization at the hands of the West, but Putin and his successor have taken up Tehran's cause, selling arms and technology to the Iranians and running diplomatic interference on their behalf. This is Washington's counterattack by proxy.

Please don't tell me Saakashvili just woke up one day and decided to attack Ossetia, and that the Americans weren't notified well in advance. Georgia depends on U.S. military and economic aid, and Saakashvili is a savvy operator: he is pulling a Lebanon, having learned from the Israeli example, and the Bush administration is more than glad to oblige him. Georgian tanks would never have rolled into South Ossetia without being given a green light by Washington. 

Georgia has embarked on a very dangerous course, and it's important to realize it hasn't done so alone. Saakashvili has the implicit backing of Washington in his quest to re-conquer the "lost" provinces of Ossetia and Abkhazia (and don't forget Adjaria!)  or else what are 1,000 U.S. troops doing engaged in "joint military exercises" with the Georgian military, just as the crisis reaches a crescendo of violence? (The Brits, to their credit, have thought better of getting dragged into this one)

It's too bad Obama is going along with the game plan, but then again, he was never good on the Russian question to begin with, so I can't say I'm disappointed. South Ossetia is not now a part of "sovereign Georgian territory," and it hasn't been for nearly two decades, no matter what McCain and Obama would have us believe. If they, along with GWB, are going to stand by Saakashvili's side as he mows down civilians and imposes martial law on a war-torn, dirt-poor, and much-abused people, then may they all be damned to hell  that is, if we can find a rung low enough for them. 

It's funny  if you like your humor black  but when Slobodan Milosevic was supposedly doing to Kosovo what Saakashvili is now doing to South Ossetia, the U.S. launched bombing raids and "liberated" the Kosovars from what we were told was to be a gruesome fate. There are many reasons to doubt that this attempted "genocide" ever took place, but given that something very bad was going on in the former Yugoslavia, one has to ask: why don't the same standards apply to South Ossetia? 

I'll tell you why: because the victims, this time, are Russians, Slavs who haven't achieved official victim status in the lexicon of Western "humanitarians." 

Imagine if, say, Colombia invaded Panama, and rained bombs down on the many U.S. citizens currently living there. Would the U.S. act to ensure their safety? You betcha! So somebody please tell me why Russia hasn't the right to defend its own citizens, and even to deter and punish Georgian aggression.

The War Party has been running on some pretty low energy lately, and this revival of the Cold War will no doubt recharge its batteries. The warmongers need a new enemy, a fresh face in their rogues' gallery, to get the masses excited again, and Putin's Russia fits the bill. I've been warning of this possibility for what seems like years, and now the moment is upon us. What's interesting is how many left-liberal "peaceniks" are falling for the War Party's guff and lining up behind McCain, their hero Obama, and the neocons in the march to confrontation with the Kremlin.

~ Justin Raimondo

----------


## Primbs

More youtubes of fighting.

Georgia Firefight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvMrveICKjs


Close up on Russian bombing run.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGjnOMEK3IM

Raw Video : Georgia And S. Ossetia Exchange RPG And Gunfire,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tHWMRpSe_k

----------


## Vet_from_cali

dunno if any of you heard the latest news, but it said russia is going ahead with the cease fire agreement. 

the panicking can stop for now.

----------


## ClayTrainor

> dunno if any of you heard the latest news, but it said russia is going ahead with the cease fire agreement. 
> 
> the panicking can stop for now.


You got a source?

----------


## Vet_from_cali

> You got a source?


http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe...war/index.html

its CNN

----------


## JosephTheLibertarian

darn. I was hopin it would escalate

----------


## Fox McCloud

> darn. I was hopin it would escalate


What an evil little person :-P

Ahh well, you're not the only one, in a sick, twisted sort of way, I was hoping it would escalate as well, as it may show the US "Hey, you're not the only one who's a Superpower in this world".

That said, don't hold your breath, Georgia is still reporting Russian attacks, and even if there is a true cease fire...if Georgia demands too much, RUssia may go back to square 1 again, only it may not be as pretty.

----------


## Andrew-Austin

> darn. I was hopin it would escalate


O'rly? Why.

----------


## torchbearer

> O'rly? Why.


So we won't be the only ones hated in the world right now? 
(just a guess)

----------


## haaaylee

> O'rly? Why.




Because it makes each day exciting instead of depressing? 
This whole thing was like a game of Clue. Who done it?

----------


## DAFTEK

Why is the US media like CNN constantly giving major air time to president Saakasvili and and letting him downplay the whole situation when he started this? I'm just wondering why cant our media be fair and balanced? The guy is a puppet for Bush, educated in the US and put in place as Georgian president by the US.... How much more will Bush&co. lie to the American people? This is Yugoslavia all over again where the victims are the actual aggressors and criminals. CNN is pushing this war and itching for a US war by the words used by most of the CNN news crew AND LETTING THAT PUPPET SAY WHAT EVER HE WANTS ON AMERICAN TV SO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE FEEL SORRY FOR THEM? Looks like one sided story to me.

----------


## DAFTEK

Why wont CNN ask president Saakasvili about the war crimes he committed in North Ossetia and the Russian accusations? I'm just not buying this guy at all after hearing all of his interviews....

----------


## BenIsForRon

Don't know if it's been mentioned here yet, but one of McCain's top foreign policy advisers was a lobbyist for Georgia.  

Here's the story from Olbermann:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#26165891

----------


## DAFTEK

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSVEc...eature=related

&

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1Xpv...eature=related

----------


## DAFTEK

American troops found amongst Georgian dead
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBMQu...eature=related

----------


## Primbs

Looks like the war is expanding. Russian troops headed south in Georgia.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/georgia_russia

----------


## Zolah

"He said Georgia would have to accept the new border and taunted the retreating Georgian forces, saying they had received "American training in running away.""

Zing! I don't think the war is expanding though..

----------


## DAFTEK

I hope they find Saakasvili in one of those snake holes like they found Saddam in

----------


## Fox McCloud

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26116598

looks like the US thinks that by pushing it's "humanitarian" weight around, it can deter Russia from doing anything further.

All I can say is, this is a grave mistake; even if this war doesn't spread, it'll only harm foreign relations with Russia more.

----------


## ClayTrainor

> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26116598
> 
> looks like the US thinks that by pushing it's "humanitarian" weight around, it can deter Russia from doing anything further.
> 
> All I can say is, this is a grave mistake; even if this war doesn't spread, it'll only harm foreign relations with Russia more.


haha oh man.

I definitely have decided that im not going to have a baby, and bring a kid into this world.

WW3 is gonna go down fairly soon, IMO.

The US cant flex their muscles like this with Russia. Russia will not stand for this, not even a little bit.  They have no reason to listen to the US

----------


## DAFTEK

I think the Iraq war got to Bush's head, he is really playing with fire if he thinks Russia is like Iraq, that was like taking candy from a baby, this is like trying to take a stake from the lions mouth  I got my bag and a one way ticket ready in case the $#@! hits the fan

----------


## Fox McCloud

This isn't over yet...




> WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Russia pressed the United States on Wednesday to choose between "a real partnership" with Moscow or an "illusory" relationship with U.S. ally Georgia.
> Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov on Wednesday says the United States should choose sides.
> 
> Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov on Wednesday says the United States should choose sides.
> 
> Washington said it's sticking with Georgia.
> 
> "As to choosing, the United States has made very clear that it is standing by the democratically elected government of Georgia," Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Wednesday.


rest here: http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/...acy/index.html

not a good move on our part; Russia isn't one that we should provoke, nor is it a nation we would want to have bad foreign relations with...

----------


## Fox McCloud

another one that's not so good:




> Aug. 14 (Bloomberg) -- President George W. Bush staged a show of support for Georgia in its conflict with Russia as the two countries accused each other of violating a cease-fire brokered by France.
> 
> A first U.S. military plane carrying humanitarian aid landed in the capital, Tbilisi, yesterday. At the same time Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice flew to France before making a visit to Georgia tomorrow.


rest here: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...WfY&refer=home

sounds like Russia is PO'd we're sending the "humanitarian aid".

----------


## Highland

crazy

----------


## RSLudlum

Does anybody know where the majority of Georgia's troops were stationed in Iraq? 

 For some reason I want to say they were near the Iraq/Iran border...If this is true, there's probably a hell of alot more going on that we're (at least I'm) not hearing/reading.

----------


## DAFTEK

Putin has responded to Bush's comments today:

Bring it on BushyBush 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2hvObzZt0g

----------


## RSLudlum

Yup,,,my memory served me well.  Georgia's troops were stationed on the Iran border covering smuggler routes and now our military units have to reorganize to fill that void in Iraq.

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=105&sid=1457041

----------


## Vet_from_cali

anything new with this fiasco?

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## Primbs

"The move, which marked a sudden shift in the U.S. response to the crisis, put U.S. and Russian military forces in close proximity amid an ongoing conflict -- a rare event even in the decades when the U.S. faced off against the Soviet Union around the world."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1218..._us_whats_news

Russia Vows to Support Two Enclaves, in Retort to Bush

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/wo...15georgia.html

Pat Buchanan from two years ago.
http://www.antiwar.com/pat/?articleid=9906

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## JosephTheLibertarian

> Putin has responded to Bush's comments today:
> 
> Bring it on BushyBush 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2hvObzZt0g


ah. Showing your true colors. pro-war

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## DAFTEK

Yeah, I'm all for kicking Bush's fart-ass! How dare he tell Russia what to do when he himself invaded a sovereign nation, How Ironic ehh? But at least my colors don't run like yours with the flip and the flop on your other posts  And I'm sure some of your friends on here would vouch for yah

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## DAFTEK

The difference is America invaded a foreign country, Russia invaded Russia with a puppet state put in place by Bush. Until you comprehend why Russia is fighting back you will continue to be just a hater.... I'm all for minding our own business but if Bush dares to get involved i personally hope Russia fights back and shows Bush that they still have balls and The US can't go around the world and doing what it wants! But you wont understand that will you?

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## JosephTheLibertarian

> Yeah, I'm all for kicking Bush's fart-ass! How dare he tell Russia what to do when he himself invaded a sovereign nation, How Ironic ehh? But at least my colors don't run like yours with the flip and the flop on your other posts  And I'm sure some of your friends on here would vouch for yah


Can you do anything besides make personal attacks? Apparently not. I never flip flop. And I have many that would vouch for me. I don't need your approval.

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## CasualApathy

I'll vouch for Joseph.

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## Cowlesy

Wow.

Here are some candid pictures from what appears to be a private digital camera right in the thick of things.

Warning: A few of them are gruesome.

http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=551#551

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## DAFTEK

#59 Would that be an American weapon?

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## RSLudlum

> #59 Would that be an American weapon?


That's the only words I could read on the entire page!!!

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## Bruno

> Wow.
> 
> Here are some candid pictures from what appears to be a private digital camera right in the thick of things.
> 
> Warning: A few of them are gruesome.
> 
> http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=551#551


omg #54.  unbelievable.  
You were right to warn.

Gorbechev is on Larry King right now talking about how Georgia started this conflict and it was carefully thought out and planned so as to appear as Russian aggression.  He said "U.S. shouldn't get involved because it would get too complicated."

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## Vet_from_cali

US-NATO and Israel Involved in the Planning of the Attacks

In mid-July, Georgian and U.S. troops held a joint military exercise entitled "Immediate Response" involving respectively 1,200 US and 800 Georgian troops.

The announcement by the Georgian Ministry of Defense on July 12 stated that they US and Georgian troops were to "train for three weeks at the Vaziani military base" near the Georgian capital, Tbilisi. (AP, July 15, 2008). These exercises, which were completed barely a week before the August 7 attacks, were an obvious dress rehearsal of a military operation, which, in all likelihood, had been planned in close cooperation with the Pentagon.

The war on Southern Ossetia was not meant to be won, leading to the restoration of Georgian sovereignty over South Ossetia. It was intended to destabilize the region while also triggering a US-NATO confrontation with Russia.

On July 12, coinciding with the outset of the Georgia-US war games, the Russian Defense Ministry started its own military maneuvers in the North Caucasus region. The usual disclaimer by both Tblisi and Moscow: the military exercises have “nothing to do” with the situation in South Ossetia. (Ibid)

Let us be under no illusions. This is not a civil war. The attacks are an integral part of the broader Middle East Central Asian war, including US-NATO-Israeli war preparations in relation to Iran.

The Role of Israeli Military Advisers

While NATO and US military advisers did not partake in the military operation per se, they were actively involved in the planning and logistics of the attacks. According to Israeli sources (Debka.com, August 8, 2008), the ground assault on August 7-8, using tanks and artillery was "aided by Israeli military advisers". Israel also supplied Georgia with Hermes-450 and Skylark unmanned aerial vehicles, which were used in the weeks leading up to the August 7 attacks.

Georgia has also acquired, according to a report in Rezonansi (August 6, in Georgian, BBC translation) "some powerful weapons through the upgrade of Su-25 planes and artillery systems in Israel". According to Haaretz (August 10, 2008), Israelis are active in military manufacturing and security consulting in Georgia.

Russian forces are now directly fighting a NATO-US trained Georgian army integrated by US and Israeli advisers. And Russian warplanes have attacked the military jet factory on the outskirts of Tbilisi, which produces the upgraded Su-25 fighter jet, with technical support from Israel. (CTV.ca, August 10, 2008) 



http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...xt=va&aid=9788

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## Cowlesy

Don't forget the CEO of Blackwater admitted this morning on CNBC that in the past 4 months he had been training Georgian "peacekeepers" at his training center in N.C.

Too many factors pointing to this being a contrived event.

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## Vet_from_cali

> Don't forget the CEO of Blackwater admitted this morning on CNBC that in the past 4 months he had been training Georgian "peacekeepers" at his training center in N.C.
> 
> Too many factors pointing to this being a contrived event.


anyone got a youtube of this?

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