# Think Tank > History >  FEMA Teaching Police "Founding Fathers were Terrorists"

## V4Vendetta

*IN HONOR OF THE BOSTON TEA PARTY DECEMBER 16th 1773*

*FEMA* says *Founding Fathers* Were *Terrorists* - VIDEO
_


“It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds”
Samuel Adams_



*SAMUEL ADAMS
HEAD OF THE BOSTON TEA PARTY 1773*


*Patrick Henry was also a Key Player in the Boston Tea Party and the Revolution*

*May 30, 1765*
_"If this be treason, make the most of it.”
Patrick Henry_

This man should be ashamed of himself... *cursing* the legacy of the Founders that gave him the freedom to say such filth!!!!

And *FEMA* should be *SHATTERED* into a million pieces for having a teacher like this teaching Police such *FILTH!!!!!*

*Video Here*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPg9MdN9Gio



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDle-SWsyio

Are You a Terrorist?

Many of you have no doubt heard of the FBI's pamphlet on identifying domestic terrorism.  Perhaps you saw as I did the black and white copies floating around but wondered if these were simply manufactured on someone's personal computer.  I frankly thought the same when I first saw them and so I wrote to the FBI's office in Phoenix and received an anonymous and official reply from a nameless individual there.   

The tone of the letter I received back was both officious and rude.  "Yes" the brochure was printed by them but it went on to explain "the general public was not supposed to see it".  I wonder if that would be a defense to a traffic ticket "Yes officer, I was speeding but you weren't supposed to see me".   

The letter also went on to assure me that the brochures were never in fact distributed even though I and hundreds of others have seen them which begs the question:  "How did I get a copy of this brochure?"   

Now a color copy has surfaced and we have it here for all to see.  We ask that instead of copying the picture, you distribute a link to the page because we want to make people aware of more than just the brochure, we want to make them aware that there is a political party that is legitimate with a long history that is not only aware, it is doing something.  In addition to this brochure, those who receive the link from you will also find a website that is dedicated to the preservation of our Constitutional Republic and provides insight, commentary and resources to that cause. 

If you are convinced as I am that this brochure is real, let me ask you another question.  What are you going to do about it?  Will you continue to vote for Republican or Democratic candidates who will march us in lock step into tyranny or will you join with a party that still holds the Constitutionas the supreme law of the land? 

Will you join with a party that has as it's stated goal the intention of cleaning up and clearing out unaccountable bureaucrats and federal agencies whose very existence is not allowed by the law of the land?  Will you join with a party that believes in the civil rights of all citizens, not just those of the popular color or religion of the day?  Will you join with a party that does not engage in political expediency just to win but rather has determined that character does matter and that our every action must reflect the highest standards and character, whether it be a small or a large matter? 

Our founding fathers pledged their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor to the cause of freedom.  Some lost their lives, some lost their fortunes but NONE lost their sacred honor.  What have YOU done for the cause of freedom? 

Sincerely,

Al Lorentz
Chairman of the Constitution Party of Texas
2 Febuary 2003




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5BpufwASq4

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## angelatc

If you have to post "DON"T MOVE THIS THREAD!" it would appear that you already know that it doesn't really belong in grassroots, I would guess.

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## me3

Does this have anything to do with the grassroots whatsoever?

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## schmeisser

I'd like to see the full video of the class to place it in context.

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## V4Vendetta

I put it here so the people coming to this thread will understand whats going on in the Federal Government

SHAME on you if you don't want people to know this

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## constitutional

> I put it here so the people coming to this thread will understand whats going on in the Federal Government
> 
> SHAME on you if you don't want people to know this


That's one person saying something dumb. Big deal. Not all people are smart. Let it go, lets focus our energy with spreading RP's message.

And yes, they would be considered terrorists if the revolution had failed. They would have gone down in history as traitors. Winners write history.

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## Stealth4

How do you know it was FEMA , where is the proof. Where was this video recorded, who were the attendees?

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## Daveforliberty

Pffft.  One idiot does not a conspiracy make.

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## LibertyEagle

Stop this conspiracy crap!!  If you must spout it, please take it somewhere other than the Ron Paul grassroots section of this forum.  Geez!

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## Kap

Edit:  Missed the Link

This is absolutely absurd.  People need to be tried for treason for this bull$#@!.  The ONLY reason FEMA doesn't want passionate supporters is because they want an easy herd to sheep.

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## V4Vendetta

> How do you know it was FEMA , where is the proof. Where was this video recorded, who were the attendees?


It was a class for a Police Force in Oklahoma by a FEMA instructor...

It's in one of Alex Jones's Videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDle-SWsyio

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## 280Z28

What I heard was:

The people in our nation's history that we look up to the most were forced to do bad things because a power across the ocean was oppressing them. Once that threat left, we immediately continued on to become one of the greatest nations in existence.

Food for thought.

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## Indy Vidual

This thread really does belong in Hot Topics 

If you do it again, *You might get sent to Gitmo.*

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## V4Vendetta

> Stop this conspiracy crap!!  If you must spout it, please take it somewhere other than the Ron Paul grassroots section of this forum.  Geez!


Yeah its a Conspiracy by the FEMA....

no wait,.... he didn;t really say that did he... infact i think the whole video is a fake....

Come on... some of you people need to wake up.

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## pcosmar

Everyone needs to understand this. This is reality, ugly,  but very real.

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## V4Vendetta

> Pffft.  One idiot does not a conspiracy make.


ONE idiot.... My friend... This is being taught all through-out the country by FEMA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDle-SWsyio

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## Indy Vidual

> If you have to post "DON"T MOVE THIS THREAD!" it would appear that you already know that it doesn't really belong in grassroots, I would guess.


IMO, your guess is correct.

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## constitutional

> Yeah its a Conspiracy by the FEMA....
> 
> no wait,.... he didn;t really say that did he... infact i think the whole video is a fake....
> 
> Come on... some of you people need to wake up.


*WE ALREADY KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON WITH OUR GOVERNMENT. STOP SHOVING THIS IN OUR FACE. IT DOES NOT HELP. HOW ABOUT YOU GO OUT AND PROMOTE RON PAUL OR TAKE SOME ACTION INSTEAD OF TELLING OTHER PEOPLE TO DO IT?
*
And yes, I'm shouting.

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## LibertyEagle

> Yeah its a Conspiracy by the FEMA....
> 
> no wait,.... he didn;t really say that did he... infact i think the whole video is a fake....
> 
> Come on... some of you people need to wake up.


I AM awake.  And you have already admitted that this has nothing to do with RP grassroots.  Yet, you put it here, because you wanted traffic.

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## paulitics

[QUOTE=TheAmistad;425671]That's one person saying something dumb. Big deal. 
QUOTE]

its in their manuals.  Home schoolers, constitutionalists, gun rights, and  I think devout christians who are strongly pro life, are all profiled under such.

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## Daveforliberty

> ONE idiot.... My friend... This is being taught all through-out the country by FEMA


Prove it.

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## SgtBulldog

One guy in a 6-year old grainy unattributed video who has his definitions wrong does not a conspiracy make.  Not grassroots, and definitely not Ron Paul related.

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## LibertyEagle

> It was a class for a Police Force in Oklahoma by a FEMA instructor...
> 
> It's in one of Alex Jones's Videos


In case you haven't noticed, this isn't called Alex Jones Conspiracy Theory Central.  It is the Ron Paul grassroots area of the forum.

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## pcosmar

> Stop this conspiracy crap!!  If you must spout it, please take it somewhere other than the Ron Paul grassroots section of this forum.  Geez!


This is not "conspiracy". This is fact.
This is evidence of a corrupt and dangerous government.
This is what folks need to know. You need to get your head out of the sand.

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## SeanEdwards

I saw the clip referred to, and I think the foil hat wearers are once again overreacting bigtime.

The founders WERE terrorists. They killed people. They were rebels. Big freakin deal. The guy in that video didn't say anything that would lead a reasonable person to conclude that he was in any way shilling for some fascist secret anti-american government scheme. He was saying that violent acts can be sponsored out of anywhere. 

The clip is all chopped up to try and frame his comments in the worst light possible, which from what I've seen is pretty typical for the truther brigades. They're much less interested in truth, than they are interested in having an anarchist freakout and getting everyone to join the conspiracy party.

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## Nathan Hale

> This is not "conspiracy". This is fact.
> This is evidence of a corrupt and dangerous government.
> This is what folks need to know. You need to get your head out of the sand.


This is "fact"??  What, exactly, about this video do you think proves it to be not only FEMA instruction of police, but systematized and institutionalized FEMA instruction of police?  All the video shows is a guy who remains unidentified speaking to a group that is also unidentified.  The only hint we have about the audience is the police-style shirt worn by the guy closest to the camera.

So there's no "fact" present about who is talking or who he is talking to.

There also is no "fact" present about exactly WHAT is being said.  The way he presented the argument, it sounded like he was defending the founding fathers methods to give the audience perspective about what terrorism is and how it is used.

And what's with the "accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior"????

I'm sorry, but the only evidence I have that this video has anything to do with FEMA or law enforcement is Alex Jones' foaming-at-the-mouth paranoia.

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## pcosmar

These are NOT Alex Jones.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=009_1190698324&o=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgPR9I4KMNI

This is FEMA in action.

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## SeanEdwards

> And what's with the "accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior"????


It looked to me like the instructor was role-playing the part of a christian extremist, saying the kinds of things the cops might encounter at a demonstration or protest.

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## V4Vendetta

Yes it is Fact, FEMA is also trying to start Pastor meetings with Churches in counties all over the country, to try to teach them Romans Chapter 13 that they should Suppress ANY rebellion of gun confiscation by the federal Government. BLAH BLAH... Its all real..... There Documentation to prove all of this stuff.......... But I am Lazy and i do not want to do all the work for you.... Do a search in Google.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDle-SWsyio

Th Christian  thing is about this........ they are trying to brainwash law enforcement that Christian's are a terrorists Group. Because we teach about love... forgiveness... Resistance to Tyrants is doing god's will. 

Oh yeah we also teach about the Mark of the beast and the Anti Christ- which is the one setting all of this up....

Now I am going to bed.... I hope this planted a seed in some of your hearts. And will make you want to research all of this yourself

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## SeanEdwards

> These are NOT Alex Jones.
> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=009_1190698324&o=1
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgPR9I4KMNI
> 
> This is FEMA in action.


That New Orleans gun-grabbing was outrageous. Everyone at FEMA approving that blatant violation of people's rights should face prosecution. I'd call it an impeachable offense if the chain of responsibility led to the white house.

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## pcosmar

> That New Orleans gun-grabbing was outrageous. Everyone at FEMA approving that blatant violation of people's rights should face prosecution. I'd call it an impeachable offense if the chain of responsibility led to the white house.


Then Stop calling this blatant Crap a "Conspiracy".

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## LibertyEagle

...

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## pcosmar

Some interesting reading, not new, but I read it when it was.
http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2007...rorist-threat/






> Your score is 70%
> Congratulations, you are a domestic terrorist. Well, at least you are according to the US government. Consider turning yourself in to your local authorities. There are FBI offices all around they country and they would like to talk to you. Pack your bags for Gitmo because the government doesn't like you.

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## traitorist

don't fret it guys. there are some senior posters who think their 'donakers' are bigger than the rest of ours. they enjoy berating and denigrating other Ron Paul supporters, and like to push their fascist leanings on us by telling us we have no right to discuss pertinent issues that relate to today's social and political climate in the USA, and how they intertwine with Ron Paul's philosophies. they think we should just shut up and go away. not such a "freedom" message coming from them is it? they parade around the forums claiming to be patriots, but their bullying antics prove them to be rather like the neocons they claim to be against. these members are about exerting control, not freedom.

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## Electric Church

> Come on... some of you people need to wake up.


They're awake ...very awake ....and so is David Rockefeller

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## Electric Church

> But I am Lazy and i do not want to do all the work for you.... Do a search in Google.


Don't do it for them... they already know. Do it for those who really don't know.

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## Electric Church

> don't fret it guys. there are some senior posters who think their 'donakers' are bigger than the rest of ours. they enjoy berating and denigrating other Ron Paul supporters, and like to push their fascist leanings on us by telling us we have no right to discuss pertinent issues that relate to today's social and political climate in the USA, and how they intertwine with Ron Paul's philosophies. they think we should just shut up and go away. not such a "freedom" message coming from them is it? they parade around the forums claiming to be patriots, but their bullying antics prove them to be rather like the neocons they claim to be against. these members are about exerting control, not freedom.



Amen

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## Mitt Romneys sideburns

> Some interesting reading, not new, but I read it when it was.
> http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2007...rorist-threat/



_
12. Have you ever been involved with cyber-penetration?_


Oh man.  That sounds good.

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## SgtBulldog

Guys, some guns may have been confiscated in New Orleans, but it wasn't FEMA doing it - it was the local law enforcement.  FEMA is just a bunch of paper pushers.

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## jon_perez

Guess what?   *That smart FEMA guy in the video is absolutely correct.*  The Zionist groups who "fought [the British] for" the establishment of Israel were ALSO terrorists.

If you subscribe to a so-called cause, go against authority and use violence then by definition, *you ARE a 'terrorist'*.   

Whether or not your cause is truly 'righteous' (it all boils down to philosophical considerations) or not does not alter the label.  Anyone who uses 'terror' [violence] in pursuit of one's goals IS a terrorist.   But then, some would argue you can't make an omelet without breaking eggs.





.

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## V4Vendetta

THE EVIL, EVIL, EVIL, FEMA - MAY GOD PUNISH THEM ONE DAY SOON!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDle-SWsyio

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## V4Vendetta

> Prove it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDle-SWsyio

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## V4Vendetta

bump

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## lucius

> Everyone needs to understand this. This is reality, ugly,  but very real.


This is true; I now have many police friends who attest to this and are now rabid Dr. Paul supporters...concentrate on waking-up police and active military. They are great Americans, concerned about their families & country and just need to be educated.

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## Thurston Howell III

> Yeah its a Conspiracy by the FEMA....
> 
> no wait,.... he didn;t really say that did he... infact i think the whole video is a fake....
> 
> Come on... some of you people need to wake up.


This has been around the net for quite a while, if you just now found it perhaps you should wake up.  

It's old news, sorry.

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## V4Vendetta

> This has been around the net for quite a while, if you just now found it perhaps you should wake up.  
> 
> It's old news, sorry.


I don't need to wake up. I have been around the Patriot Movement for a long time...

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## Nathan Hale

> Yes it is Fact, FEMA is also trying to start Pastor meetings with Churches in counties all over the country, to try to teach them Romans Chapter 13 that they should Suppress ANY rebellion of gun confiscation by the federal Government.


Bull$#@!.  You're making a pretty outrageous claim, so you'd best support that claim with evidence.




> BLAH BLAH... Its all real..... There Documentation to prove all of this stuff.......... But I am Lazy and i do not want to do all the work for you.... Do a search in Google.


Sorry, that doesn't fly.  If you want to make a claim like that and be taken seriously, you need to back it up.

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## Nathan Hale

> don't fret it guys. there are some senior posters who think their 'donakers' are bigger than the rest of ours. they enjoy berating and denigrating other Ron Paul supporters, and like to push their fascist leanings on us by telling us we have no right to discuss pertinent issues that relate to today's social and political climate in the USA, and how they intertwine with Ron Paul's philosophies. they think we should just shut up and go away. not such a "freedom" message coming from them is it? they parade around the forums claiming to be patriots, but their bullying antics prove them to be rather like the neocons they claim to be against. these members are about exerting control, not freedom.


You're right, let's have a discussion about FEMA.  Here's the proper format to discuss a contentious issue (the actions/motives of FEMA is contentious):

1.  Make claim.
2.  Support claim with evidence.
3.  Conclude argument.

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## Nathan Hale

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDle-SWsyio


This video isn't proving your point.  Establishing command and control during a crisis like Hurricane Katrina isn't viable strategy, as we saw, but it also isn't evidence of some overarching and sinister FEMA strategy.  The news report spoke very specifically, and you're taking that specific example and using it to draw a generalization.  It's poor logic.

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## noztnac

Most of us here agree that the government needs to be changed. No further evidence is needed. The problem is that we have a limited amount of time to work to get Ron Paul elected. This post diverted a lot of people's time and energy away from the key objective which is getting Ron Paul into office.  If you want to undermine a campaign go to Giuliani or Romney's forums and cause all of the diversions you want.

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## pcosmar

> This video isn't proving your point.  Establishing command and control during a crisis like Hurricane Katrina isn't viable strategy, as we saw, but it also isn't evidence of some overarching and sinister FEMA strategy.  The news report spoke very specifically, and you're taking that specific example and using it to draw a generalization.  It's poor logic.


Only One news source has covered this to my knowledge, and that is the video posted.
My Pastor has heard of the Clergy Response Team, and will NOT participate. the only other reference I know of is this from HomelandStupidity,
http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2007...rmine-liberty/

We know from the News that it happened once.
I guess we will have to wait for Martial Law to see if it happens again.

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## conner_condor

> Guys, some guns may have been confiscated in New Orleans, but it wasn't FEMA doing it - it was the local law enforcement.  FEMA is just a bunch of paper pushers.


BS if it was. It was hired Blackwater mercs. Look it up and quit being so naive.
You seen the videos of them? Google Blackwater and NewOrleans. They was hired by the government. Look it the F/K up people. Hired mercs they did.
Read the stories about NewOrleans and Blackwater and watch the videos.
Time for many to get off the boob tube and watch the net for the real stories.

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## pcosmar

> BS if it was. It was hired Blackwater mercs. Look it up and quit being so naive.
> You seen the videos of them? Google Blackwater and NewOrleans. They was hired by the government. Look it the F/K up people. Hired mercs they did.
> Read the stories about NewOrleans and Blackwater and watch the videos.
> Time for many to get off the boob tube and watch the net for the real stories.


Black Water was there. That is yet another issue.
But the Cops that beat up the old lady were from California. I believe you can see a CHP pach on the guys arm.
FEMA brought in cops from other states.

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## SgtBulldog

> BS if it was. It was hired Blackwater mercs. Look it up and quit being so naive.
> You seen the videos of them? Google Blackwater and NewOrleans. They was hired by the government. Look it the F/K up people. Hired mercs they did.
> Read the stories about NewOrleans and Blackwater and watch the videos.
> Time for many to get off the boob tube and watch the net for the real stories.


Maybe you should look it up yourself before slinging insults, eh?




> No civilians in New Orleans will be allowed to carry pistols, shotguns or other firearms, said P. Edwin Compass III,* the superintendent of police*. "Only law enforcement are allowed to have weapons," he said.


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/08/na...ge&oref=slogin

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## American

Everything is about timing, with the recent events does the Timothy McVeigh story mean anything different to you now?

Its not good either way, and I dont agree with what McVeigh did it does make a little more sense. Not something I would have done though.

I'm more of a DC sniper kind a guy.....lol

IM KIDDING!!!! unfortunately I dont even own a gun. 

we are on the right path with Ron Paul as president.

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## conner_condor

> Maybe you should look it up yourself before slinging insults, eh?
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/08/na...ge&oref=slogin



No, I am not wrong,They got the orders from higher than local level..
Kathleen Blanco,look it up again. The state government does not pay for blackwater mercs, The orders for them to be there came from a higher rank...

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## pcosmar

> No, I am not wrong,They got the orders from higher than local level..
> Kathleen Blanco,look it up again. The state government does not pay for blackwater mercs, The orders for them to be there came from a higher rank...


Watch this video, when they beat up the old lady, you can see the patch on the cops arm.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ncq_Nu3dRSI

This Patch

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## SeanEdwards

> No, I am not wrong,They got the orders from higher than local level..
> Kathleen Blanco,look it up again. The state government does not pay for blackwater mercs, The orders for them to be there came from a higher rank...


According to the recent book, "Blackwater:Rise of the World's Largest Mercenary Army", the owner of Blackwater ordered a bunch of his contractors to deploy to New Orleans on his own dime, without any government contract. 

What I find interesting is the notion that New Orleans cops were disarming civilians, but presumably they didn't disarm the Blackwater guys, who also were civilians. Bottom line for me is that cops disarming law abiding citizens without cause is totally unnaccepatable and unamerican, and any official participating in that order should be sacked at a minimum and possibly face criminal prosecution.

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## Nathan Hale

> Most of us here agree that the government needs to be changed. No further evidence is needed.


Yes, the government needs to be changed.  No evidence is needed because that is obvious.  But in this thread we're not talking simply about changing government, we're debating a supposedly sinister motive behind the government's actions.  That's where evidence is required.

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## Nathan Hale

> Only One news source has covered this to my knowledge, and that is the video posted.
> My Pastor has heard of the Clergy Response Team, and will NOT participate. the only other reference I know of is this from HomelandStupidity,


To your knowledge.  Yes.  That doesn't mean that only one news source has covered it.  And numerous news sources have covered the disarmament of New Orleans residents and the presence of US troops on American soil.  This Clergy Response Team is a small facet of the overall strategy.

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## pcosmar

> Bull$#@!.  You're making a pretty outrageous claim, so you'd best support that claim with evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, that doesn't fly.  If you want to make a claim like that and be taken seriously, you need to back it up.


You called BS. You asked for proof. 	




> Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
> Only One news source has covered this to my knowledge, and that is the video posted.
> My Pastor has heard of the Clergy Response Team, and will NOT participate. the only other reference I know of is this from HomelandStupidity,
> 			
> 		
> 
> To your knowledge. Yes. That doesn't mean that only one news source has covered it. And numerous news sources have covered the disarmament of New Orleans residents and the presence of US troops on American soil. This Clergy Response Team is a small facet of the overall strategy.


And your point is?

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## Nathan Hale

> You called BS. You asked for proof.


I don't contest what you're saying above.  I did ask for proof, and you owe it, because you're making an outrageous claim.  I'm open minded about the issue, but I need to see some evidence that points specifically to the charges you make.




> And your point is?


My point is that you're making a few leaps of faith in order to arrive at your conclusion.

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## pcosmar

> I don't contest what you're saying above.  I did ask for proof, and you owe it, because you're making an outrageous claim.  I'm open minded about the issue, but I need to see some evidence that points specifically to the charges you make.
> 
> 
> 
> My point is that you're making a few leaps of faith in order to arrive at your conclusion.


I made NO charges.
I agreed with the premise that FEMA was using Clergy to pacify the public.
I posted a News video that backed that claim. Sorry, I don't have a link to the conversation with my Pastor.
On a side, before buying my farm in Michigan, I lived in South Florida the Keys to be exact.
I have been through several Hurricanes. 4 in the last year I was there. Katrina was only one of many, and I lost a lot in Wilma. 
FEMA  always got there late and got in the way for the most part.
Go ahead and defend FEMA. 
I have seen enough of them.

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## pcosmar

You might watch this,
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/am...ica/1681595564

I  know where the camps are near me.
Camp Grayling
K.I. Sawyer AFB

Do you know where the Camps are near you?

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## JTCoyoté

California highway patrol, eh... in New Orleans... little out of their jurisdiction I would suspect... likely taking orders from "Brownie, the terminator... and the Easter Bunny"... certainly not FEMA though...

--Oldyoti

_[On the nature of Democracy]..."Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths." -- James Madison -- Federalist Paper #10_

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## Nathan Hale

> I made NO charges.


You charged that the video was a) done by FEMA, and b) designed to denounce the founding fathers as terrorists.




> I agreed with the premise that FEMA was using Clergy to pacify the public.


FEMA was attempting to restore order after a natural disaster.  I agree that their methods were less than desirable, but I see no evidence of alterior motive.




> I posted a News video that backed that claim. Sorry, I don't have a link to the conversation with my Pastor.
> On a side, before buying my farm in Michigan, I lived in South Florida the Keys to be exact.
> I have been through several Hurricanes. 4 in the last year I was there. Katrina was only one of many, and I lost a lot in Wilma. 
> FEMA  always got there late and got in the way for the most part.
> Go ahead and defend FEMA. 
> I have seen enough of them.


I'm not defending FEMA.  I think FEMA is a horrible organization.  BUT, they're horrible because they're inefficient and I believe that a localized response would be more efficient.  I DONT think that FEMA has some alterior motive to demonize the founders and take away our civil liberties.

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## Nathan Hale

> You might watch this,
> http://video.aol.com/video-detail/am...ica/1681595564
> 
> I  know where the camps are near me.
> Camp Grayling
> K.I. Sawyer AFB
> 
> Do you know where the Camps are near you?


I'm sorry that I replied to your other message before reading this.  Don't even try to play the straight man against me, you believe that FEMA is on the verge of some Nazi-esque takeover of America.  All they need is the inciting event, right???

I watched your supposed evidence-laden video, and I saw nothing supported by actual evidence.  The pictures could have come from anywhere, and the text espoused unverifiable conspiracy junk.  I understand that you're paranoid about our government, but if you want to foster a revolution, you'd best bring some evidence that leaves no room for doubt.

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## pcosmar

> You charged that the video was a) done by FEMA, and b) designed to denounce the founding fathers as terrorists.
> 
> 
> 
> FEMA was attempting to restore order after a natural disaster.  I agree that their methods were less than desirable, but I see no evidence of alterior motive.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not defending FEMA.  I think FEMA is a horrible organization.  BUT, they're horrible because they're inefficient and I believe that a localized response would be more efficient.  I DONT think that FEMA has some alterior motive to demonize the founders and take away our civil liberties.


I did not post the original video of the FEMA training session.
They said what they said. Duh!




> FEMA was attempting to restore order after a natural disaster.


Restore order. OK
New Orleans was a self inflicted wound, There were so many things wrong there even before the storm. I saw it as Enforcing Control even when and where it was not needed. But that is part of a larger problem.




> I DONT think that FEMA has some alterior motive to demonize the founders and take away our civil liberties.


Well the Founding Fathers part is incidental. The are a major component of a Federal Police State, and taking away our civil rights is a stated plan.
The North American Union is a part of the plan to end our national sovereignty. The Constitution is in the way of that goal.
Read "Building a North American Community" by the CFR. 
Very enlightening.

----------


## V4Vendetta

State National Guard units from A Lot of Different States were sent to Louisiana in 2005 during the Aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.... Under orders of FEMA.... in direct conflict of their normal operating procedures and operating Jurisdiction!!!

If the Federal Government can so blatantly disobey laws that prevent them from doing such things... what will hold them back from attempting other, MORE outrageous Violations?

ANSWER: *Nothing*... Short of a Well Regulated Militia formed by everyday people in neighborhoods

----------


## pcosmar

> I watched your supposed evidence-laden video, and I saw nothing supported by actual evidence. The pictures could have come from anywhere, and the text espoused unverifiable conspiracy junk. I understand that you're paranoid about our government, but if you want to foster a revolution, you'd best bring some evidence that leaves no room for doubt.


I have seen CampGrayling, It is near by. But not too near.
REX 84 has been known for years. Suppressed but known.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...articleId=3010
                                             FEMA And REX 84



> In April 1984, President Reagan signed Presidential Directorate Number 54 that allowed FEMA to engage in a secret national "readiness exercise" under the code name of REX 84. The exercise was to test FEMA's readiness to assume military authority in the event of a "State of Domestic National Emergency" concurrent with the launching of a direct United States military operation in Central America. The plan called for the deputation of U.S. military and National Guard units so that they could legally be used for domestic law enforcement. These units would be assigned to conduct sweeps and take into custody an estimated 400,000 undocumented Central American immigrants in the United States. The immigrants would be interned at 10 detention centers to be set up at military bases throughout the country. REX 84 was so highly guarded that special metal security doors were placed on the fifth floor of the FEMA building in Washington, D.C. Even long-standing employees of the Civil Defense of the Federal Executive Department possessing the highest possible security clearances were not being allowed through the newly installed metal security doors. Only personnel wearing a special red Christian cross or crucifix lapel pin were allowed into the premises. Lt. Col. North was responsible for drawing up the emergency plan, which U.S. Attorney General William French Smith opposed vehemently.


http://uweb.txstate.edu/~lf14/conspire/rex84.html

----------


## Wendi

*BUMP*

I hope everyone sees this.  And reads it.  And really thinks about what it means.

----------


## Nathan Hale

> I did not post the original video of the FEMA training session.
> They said what they said. Duh!


You're right, I got you mixed up with V for Vendetta.  Though you did call the video, in post #24, "evidence of a corrupt and dangerous government", and you did claim, regarding it being a conspiracy, in post #15, that it was "very real".  These claims are simply not supported on the video at the start of this thread.




> Restore order. OK
> New Orleans was a self inflicted wound, There were so many things wrong there even before the storm. I saw it as Enforcing Control even when and where it was not needed. But that is part of a larger problem.


Based on what you're saying, the logical conclusion was that FEMA was inept, not evil.  FEMA operated in a heavy-handed command-and-control method, the only way that a centralized force knows how to operate.  This isn't evidence of dangerous corruption and desire to take away civil liberties.  Unless you have some more evidence that you'd like to share.




> Well the Founding Fathers part is incidental. The are a major component of a Federal Police State, and taking away our civil rights is a stated plan.


Where do you see this?  I think you're making a dangerous leap of faith by extracting disarmaments during Hurricane Katrina and extrapolating that specific event to imply a sinister plan for nationwide civil rights restrictions.




> The North American Union is a part of the plan to end our national sovereignty.


"Part of the plan".  Whose plan, exactly?  And what evidence do you have of this?




> The Constitution is in the way of that goal.
> Read "Building a North American Community" by the CFR. 
> Very enlightening.


I don't see how that document makes your case.  Unless you'd like to call out a specific passage that highlights why you're quoting it in this thread.

----------


## Nathan Hale

> I have seen CampGrayling, It is near by. But not too near.
> REX 84 has been known for years. Suppressed but known.


Yes, REX 84 is real.  But what we actually know about it is very limited.  The fact we know is that it *was* a readiness exercise for continuing of government in the case of serious societal disruption.  It's called REX 84 because the exercise happened 23 years ago, in 1984.  There is no evidence that REX 84 is part of a larger plan in place to detain Americans, in fact, there's not much evidence of any kind about exactly what REX 84 is.





> http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...articleId=3010
>                                              FEMA And REX 84


GlobalResearch.ca....good source.  About as reliable as FMNN or USA Daily when they talk about Ron Paul.




> http://uweb.txstate.edu/~lf14/conspire/rex84.html


Ahh, this bit of "evidence" is a sub-page of a student's page at Texas State titled "Serial Killers, conspiracies, and other items of interest".  I take the GlobalResearch link more seriously, and that's not saying much.

----------


## pcosmar

There is NO part of the existing Government that is not corrupt.
FEMA is corrupt 
The CIA is corrupt
The FBI is corrupt 
BATFE is corrupt
FLETC is corrupt
DHS is corrupt
DEA is corrupt
And any other alphabet agency you can name.

None of them are protecting the Civil Rights of Americans.
The ONLY purpose of government is to protect the Liberty of the citizens.
Period.

----------


## pcosmar

> "Part of the plan". Whose plan, exactly? And what evidence do you have of this?


Well lets start here.

A North American United Nations? 
http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=475

or this
http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=515



> American Independence and Sovereignty
> 
> So called free trade deals and world governmental organizations like the International Criminal Court (ICC), NAFTA, GATT, WTO, and CAFTA are a threat to our independence as a nation. They transfer power from our government to unelected foreign elites.
> 
> The ICC wants to try our soldiers as war criminals. Both the WTO and CAFTA could force Americans to get a doctors prescription to take herbs and vitamins. Alternative treatments could be banned.
> 
> The WTO has forced Congress to change our laws, yet we still face trade wars. Today, France is threatening to have U.S. goods taxed throughout Europe. If anything, the WTO makes trade relations worse by giving foreign competitors a new way to attack U.S. jobs.
> 
> NAFTAs superhighway is just one part of a plan to erase the borders between the U.S. and Mexico, called the North American Union. This spawn of powerful special interests, would create a single nation out of Canada, the U.S. and Mexico, with a new unelected bureaucracy and money system. Forget about controlling immigration under this scheme.
> ...


http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=467



> For more than a decade the United Nations has waged a campaign to undermine Second Amendment rights in America.  UN Secretary General Kofi Annan has called on members of the Security Council to address the easy availability of small arms and light weapons, by which he means all privately owned firearms. In response, the Security Council released a report calling for a comprehensive program of worldwide gun control, a report that admonishes the U.S. and praises the restrictive gun laws of Red China and France! 
> 
> Its no surprise that UN officials dislike what they view as our gun culture.  After all, these are the people who placed a huge anti-gun statue on American soil at UN headquarters in New York.  The statue depicts a pistol with the barrel tied into a knot, a not-too-subtle message aimed squarely at the U.S.
> 
> They believe in global government, and armed people could stand in the way of their goals.  They certainly dont care about our Constitution or the Second Amendment.  But the conflict between the UN position on private ownership of firearms and our Second Amendment cannot be reconciled.  How can we as a nation justify our membership in an organization that is actively hostile to one of our most fundamental constitutional rights?  What if the UN decided that free speech was too inflammatory and should be restricted?  Would we discard the First Amendment to comply with the UN agenda?
> The UN claims to serve human freedom and dignity, but gun control often serves as a gateway to tyranny.  Tyrants from Hitler to Mao to Stalin have sought to disarm their own citizens, for the simple reason that unarmed people are easier to control.  Our Founders, having just expelled the British army, knew that the right to bear arms serves as the guardian of every other right.  This is the principle so often ignored by both sides in the gun control debate.  Only armed citizens can resist tyrannical government.


The Disturbing Trend Toward Federal Police
http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=159

http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=16



> Force and intimidation are the preferred tools of tyrants, though not just intimidation with government guns. The threat of imprisonment and fear of harassment by government agents strikes terror into the hearts of millions of Americans. Four days after Paula Jones refused a settlement in her celebrated suit against the president, she received notice that she and her husband would be audited for their 1995 taxes. Since 1994 is the current "year" for which the IRS is conducting audits of returns, the government claim that the action is unrelated to the suit is suspect, to say the least.
> 
> Even if it is coincidental, do not try to convince the American people. Most Americans, justifiably cynical and untrusting toward the federal government, know the evidence exists that since the 1970's both Republican and Democratic administrations have not hesitated to intimidate their political enemies with IRS audits and regulatory harassment. Though the average IRS agent does not carry a gun, the threat of incarceration and seizure of property is backed up by many guns. All government power is ultimately gun power, and serves the interests of those who despise or do not comprehend the principles of liberty.
> 
> I tend to agree with Charlton Heston, who recently said that the Constitution's Second Amendment is the most important. Without the ability to protect themselves and their property, discussion of any other rights is only so much talk.
> 
> A gun in the hand of a law-abiding citizen serves as a very real, very important deterrent to an arrogant and aggressive government. Guns in the hands of the bureaucrats do the opposite. The founders of this country fully understood this fact, it's a shame our generation has ignored it


Are these some more acceptable sources?

----------


## Revolution9

> *WE ALREADY KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON WITH OUR GOVERNMENT. STOP SHOVING THIS IN OUR FACE. IT DOES NOT HELP. HOW ABOUT YOU GO OUT AND PROMOTE RON PAUL OR TAKE SOME ACTION INSTEAD OF TELLING OTHER PEOPLE TO DO IT?
> *
> And yes, I'm shouting.


Yeah.. We see. Keep it down. Some people have not learned this yet. It is a fact that has been verified elsewhere. WHY DON"T YOU STOP PROTESTING the dissemination of protective knowledge. You afraid of it?

randy

----------


## Revolution9

> Maybe you should look it up yourself before slinging insults, eh?


Stick around. Yer gonna get schooled one way or another. Bluster and stonewall amount to a hill of dessicated ant droppings here. You are amongst thinking people.

HTH
Randy

----------


## Nathan Hale

> There is NO part of the existing Government that is not corrupt.
> FEMA is corrupt 
> The CIA is corrupt
> The FBI is corrupt 
> BATFE is corrupt
> FLETC is corrupt
> DHS is corrupt
> DEA is corrupt
> And any other alphabet agency you can name.


SHOW, don't TELL.  You can say whatever you want, but it doesn't mean a damn thing if you can't SHOW it.  Baseless and frivolous accusations are what leads to lost credibility, and right now the freedom movement needs to GAIN credibility.  That's why I'm being such a devil's advocate here - you need to learn to document every aspect of your case before making it.




> None of them are protecting the Civil Rights of Americans.
> The ONLY purpose of government is to protect the Liberty of the citizens.
> Period.


First off, this is your belief.  Many Americans disagree.

Second, assuming a strictly libertarian audience, on paper this looks great, but you fail to realize that many times the government THINKS they're doing good when they actually do bad.  You need to show that such good intentions are NOT the case before you go around claiming that the government has some intent other than the greater good.

----------


## Nathan Hale

> Are these some more acceptable sources?


Well, it's just a single source, not "sources".  And, that single source does have a significant anti-establishment agenda.  And they're just speeches of his that lack full accounting of their own, but....

You did well.  I said what I said to get you to at least try to justify your arguments with something supporting evidence.  I did this so you wouldn't get shredded to pieces when asked to verify your argument by somebody less sympathetic than myself.   I still think that if you're falling back on the gospel according to Ron then you need more, but this is a good starting point.

----------


## pcosmar

> SHOW, don't TELL.  You can say whatever you want, but it doesn't mean a damn thing if you can't SHOW it.  Baseless and frivolous accusations are what leads to lost credibility, and right now the freedom movement needs to GAIN credibility.  That's why I'm being such a devil's advocate here - you need to learn to document every aspect of your case before making it.
> 
> 
> 
> First off, this is your belief.  Many Americans disagree.
> 
> Second, assuming a strictly libertarian audience, on paper this looks great, but you fail to realize that many times the government THINKS they're doing good when they actually do bad.  You need to show that such good intentions are NOT the case before you go around claiming that the government has some intent other than the greater good.


OK, we Want to play that silly game. Here you go.
A simple Google search will fill volumes, but here are some quick ones.

FEMA= corruption
This from the Sun Sentinel
http://www.yuricareport.com/Disaster...orruption.html
I saw much of the same in the Keys. I have personally been through 8 hurricanes in the Florida Keys. I saw stuff thats not on Google.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10577522/
Corruption waste and incompetence after Katrina.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1749771/posts



> "IT'S AN EMBARRASSMENT AND BREACH OF TRUST"
> 
> A Louisiana State Police employee and 11 others have been arrested as part of a statewide investigation into the theft of 256 computers purchased by FEMA. Only 43 of the stolen computers had been recovered as of Monday morning, police said.
> 
> The Dell computers, valued at approximately $900 each, were intended to replace computers in government buildings, hospitals, and other facilities in Louisiana damaged by Hurricane Katrina, said State Police spokesman Lt. Lawrence McLeary. The computers were being stored at the Louisiana State Police Compound on Independence Boulevard in Baton Rouge.
> 
> "It's an embarrassment and breach of trust," McLeary said in describing the arrest of State Police employee Japonica Thompson. The 32-year Port Allen woman worked in a computer-related position. She was hired in September 1998, records show.
> 
> McLeary says Thompson worked with a trustee assigned to the storage area to sneak computers out of the facility. "Some she was selling out of her house, some she was giving away as gifts to family," McLeary said. "She had some of the relatives of the trustee come down from Shreveport and they were acting as a distribution network for her and selling them up in that area."


How about that FAKE news conference.
http://corruption.justsick$#@!.com/2...ss-conference/

----------


## pcosmar

I had to feed the dogs, but I'm back.

CIA= corruption
Oh, where to begin here?
There is plenty documented and even more speculated.
Lets stick to what is known.
Operation Northwoods.
Though not pulled off, just the fact that it was considered and planed is horrifying.
http://www.nowpublic.com/false_flag_...s_own_citizens

http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle3140.htm


Operation Paperclip
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fa...clip_file.html
http://www.operationpaperclip.info/

Some of the scientists would later work on,
Mk Ultra
There is a lot documented,but the survivors stories are most compelling. The last one is Bill Clinton apologizing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iflBkRlpRy0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-ES8Bv0_8w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u22mphQsn5s

Operation Ajax
This one is related to our troubles in the Middle East.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/latulippe/latulippe41.html
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB28/

----------


## pcosmar

> Yeah.. We see. Keep it down. Some people have not learned this yet. It is a fact that has been verified elsewhere. WHY DON"T YOU STOP PROTESTING the dissemination of protective knowledge. You afraid of it?
> 
> randy


While I don't usually have to provide documentation in my neighborhood, I can. This library at my fingertips is a wonderful thing.
Most of the farmers around here do not use computers, and they don't need one to know that the government stinks.
I have had little trouble presenting Ron Paul to them.
They welcome the message of Liberty.

----------


## Daveforliberty

I asked V4Vendetta (great movie, by the way) to prove that FEMA agents were actively and widely indoctrinating police with the idea that the Founding Fathers were terrorists, and he give me something about pastors as the "proof."




> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDle-SWsyio


Look V, I am probably as anti-government as you are, or more so, but in order for us to enlist more people to the cause, we have to be credible.  This includes having rock solid evidence when we make claims people may take to be outrageous.

Starting a thread claiming that this is a FEMA standard, and then providing NO evidence to back it up, does not look credible.  One six year old video with questionable meaning does not a federal training standard make.  Not even with pastors on top.

----------


## pcosmar

> This includes having rock solid evidence when we make claims people may take to be outrageous.


You really only need to look at the Executive orders.
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/eo/femalist.htm

That is some truly nasty stuff.

----------


## Nathan Hale

> OK, we Want to play that silly game. Here you go.


You're missing the point.  This isn't a "silly game".  This is serious discourse.  The burden on the person making a point isn't simply to speak his peace.  When you seek to make a point, you need to show that your point is correct through logic and evidence.  This isn't me trying to play some silly game, this is me telling you that if you want to be taken seriously in a public forum, you need to bring something more than wanton claims to the table.




> A simple Google search will fill volumes, but here are some quick ones.


Please.  I could google search my way to any conclusion.  Your sources need to be credible, not merely plentiful.




> FEMA= corruption
> This from the Sun Sentinel
> http://www.yuricareport.com/Disaster...orruption.html
> I saw much of the same in the Keys. I have personally been through 8 hurricanes in the Florida Keys. I saw stuff thats not on Google.


These stories point to rampant ineptitude, not authoritarianism-influenced corruption.




> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10577522/
> Corruption waste and incompetence after Katrina.


This shows that a news agency reports an investigation into potential petty corruption after Katrina.  But this isn't evidence of corruption, or, more specifically, the kind of corruption that you have spoken about in this thread.




> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1749771/posts


Something was stolen from FEMA.  Why did you list this as evidence?




> How about that FAKE news conference.
> http://corruption.justsick$#@!.com/2...ss-conference/


Now you're getting warmed up, but still, this isn't evidence of widespread corruption, and especially not of any sort of desire to destroy our civil liberties and institute a police state.  The article points out that a specific group of individuals were at fault, and that the individual in charge is no longer employed by FEMA.

----------


## tnvoter

> Pffft.  One idiot does not a conspiracy make.


MASTER YODA! <333

----------


## Nathan Hale

> CIA= corruption
> Oh, where to begin here?
> There is plenty documented and even more speculated.


Good to hear.  So let's see what you bring to the table.




> Lets stick to what is known.


There's the spirit.  We ONLY debate what we know, because otherwise we end up cornered by the person on the other end who inevitable knows something we don't.




> Operation Northwoods.
> Though not pulled off, just the fact that it was considered and planed is horrifying.
> http://www.nowpublic.com/false_flag_...s_own_citizens


Ahh, Operation Northwoods.  I've read it numerous times over the years.  Have you?

To start with, your source is flawed.  You link to a public access "media" site, and the person who posted the story is without a doubt biased.  But Operation Northwoods is a commonly mentioned criticism of the CIA so I'm willing to look past flaws in the source and run with the idea of Northwoods as evidence of corruption.  And it is.  Northwoods is a great source to use when speaking to what our government is capable of.  Granted, this happened almost 50 years ago, the operation was rejected, and the provisions of the operation were far more demure than people let on when summarizing it, but taken as a whole it's a good line item to show evidence of criminal intent in the CIA.

But Northwoods isn't a magic bullet to convince people that government is evil, because Northwoods was rejected.  And Kennedy, as a result of Northwoods, authored an NASM limiting the CIA to intelligence gathering and putting covert operations under the auspicies of the Pentagon and the Joint Chiefs.




> http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle3140.htm


Once again, watch your source.  The article is pulled from a CBS article, so link directly to the CBS article.  But linking to a tin foil hate site like informationclearinghouse.info is not advisable.




> Operation Paperclip
> http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fa...clip_file.html


This "source" is a MESS.  The bibliography is jumbled at the bottom, a hodge-podge of tin foil hats and legitimate journalism, but none of it is directly attributed to the specific claims made in the article, so I have no idea what information comes from where.  You're better off avoiding information like this.

http://www.operationpaperclip.info/

A much prettier, yet just as vague web site.  There is no attribution for anything.




> Some of the scientists would later work on,
> Mk Ultra


I don't see this point proven yet.




> There is a lot documented,but the survivors stories are most compelling. The last one is Bill Clinton apologizing.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iflBkRlpRy0
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-ES8Bv0_8w
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u22mphQsn5s


Now you're getting the hang of it.  Direct video of a congressional testimony followed by an apology from the President.  My only criticism is that the Clinton video may well be the lowest-quality video I've ever seen.  There has to be a better one out there.





> Operation Ajax
> This one is related to our troubles in the Middle East.
> http://www.lewrockwell.com/latulippe/latulippe41.html
> http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB28/


[/quote]

Once again, try to steer clear of using politically-biased sites as sources, but Ajax is another good, verifiable example of some poor morality on the part of the CIA.  That's why Ron Paul talks a lot about our overthrowing the Shah, because it's so well documented that if pressed, he'd be able to come up with proof.  That's what this is all about - being able to support your argument with proof.

----------


## pcosmar

> Once again, try to steer clear of using politically-biased sites as sources, but Ajax is another good, verifiable example of some poor morality on the part of the CIA. That's why Ron Paul talks a lot about our overthrowing the Shah, because it's so well documented that if pressed, he'd be able to come up with proof. That's what this is all about - being able to support your argument with proof.


Every site is biased. There is no getting around that.
Also I have had to Re Research some, as much of what I have learned has been over the last 30+ years and much of that was books. I have only had the of a computer for about 4 years.
Thats probably why I voted for Bush.

----------


## Nathan Hale

> Every site is biased. There is no getting around that.


True, but some sites carry more weight than others.  The public takes the word of cbs.com more seriously than it does informationclearhouse.info or Alex Jones.  I've never tried to say that cbs.com has a greater claim to the truth than informationclearhouse or Jones, but it has a greater claim to acceptance.  And in order for people to process information, they need to accept the information.  Which means it needs to come from a trusted source.




> Also I have had to Re Research some, as much of what I have learned has been over the last 30+ years and much of that was books. I have only had the of a computer for about 4 years.


This is important to the debate, because the internet, for all that it is a great equalizer of access to information, it is also the greatest source of dispersing DISinformation and speculation.  To wit, all those forwards you get from your friends with stupid factoids and other "facts."  The internet disperses information, both real information and bull$#@! rumor/speculation/lies.  So it's important to wade through the muck and try to discern who is credible in your own mind, but also who is credible to the masses.





> Thats probably why I voted for Bush.


Your secret is safe with me.

----------


## pcosmar

I do not believe there is any ONE site or source that would defend my position, but rather the cumulative weight of evidence. Pieces from here and there, laws and policies that have come about over many years and by many players.
For instance FEMA. Though it came into existence under Reagan, it was grown out of the Executive Orders of Kennedy. They were most probably signed with good intentions. That was Cold War era, and though never implemented, are still "on the books".
FEMA also had good intentions, though bureaucracy, greed and graft had been corrupted.
Now FEMA is incorporated in DHS. Add the Patriot Act, Military Commission Act, the suspension of Habeas Corpus,  and the new Domestic Terrorism Bill, and there is a very serious danger of abuse.
The Executive Orders that were signed are scary enough, and are Questionable under the Constitution. 
Taken as a whole, We the People are in a precarious position.

----------


## Nathan Hale

> I do not believe there is any ONE site or source that would defend my position, but rather the cumulative weight of evidence. Pieces from here and there, laws and policies that have come about over many years and by many players.


The problem, especially with the internet, is that many aligned groups will run the same BS on all of their sites.  Sure it looks more credible when Alex Jones, informationclearinghouse, whatreallyhappened, From the Wilderness, and Lyndon LaRouche all say the same thing, but realize that they're all interconnected and thus get their information from the same places and perpetuate it to the same audience.




> For instance FEMA. Though it came into existence under Reagan, it was grown out of the Executive Orders of Kennedy. They were most probably signed with good intentions. That was Cold War era, and though never implemented, are still "on the books".
> FEMA also had good intentions, though bureaucracy, greed and graft had been corrupted.
> Now FEMA is incorporated in DHS. Add the Patriot Act, Military Commission Act, the suspension of Habeas Corpus,  and the new Domestic Terrorism Bill, and there is a very serious danger of abuse.


Yes.  I agree with you.  This is the problem that Ron Paul speaks to.  Where we break is when you imply that this danger was deliberately orchestrated so that a police state could emerge in the US.  That is where I start to demand some serious evidence.




> The Executive Orders that were signed are scary enough, and are Questionable under the Constitution.


Which Executive Orders?




> Taken as a whole, We the People are in a precarious position.


Of course, which is why Ron Paul is such an attractive candidate.

----------


## pcosmar

> Which Executive Orders?


Well I was studying in a Law Library in the early 80s. I am not sure the exact text and have had no luck finding it online.
I believe they were in Kennedy's time.
Reagan was President and there have been Orders signed in every administration. Some things have changed, such as the incorporation of FEMA under Reagan and now the DHS under Bush.
The ones that I have found online are somewhat different, but very similar.

----------


## Nathan Hale

> Well I was studying in a Law Library in the early 80s. I am not sure the exact text and have had no luck finding it online.
> I believe they were in Kennedy's time.
> Reagan was President and there have been Orders signed in every administration. Some things have changed, such as the incorporation of FEMA under Reagan and now the DHS under Bush.
> The ones that I have found online are somewhat different, but very similar.


I ask this only because (specifics escape me as well) there were a large number of executive orders often listed to "prove" that our government is borderline orwellian, and they've mostly been overturned and repealed.

----------


## lucius

What we chose to ignore: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jl1VIhdpl4c&feature=user

----------


## Nathan Hale

> What we chose to ignore: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jl1VIhdpl4c&feature=user


While this video has quite sexy, it's just a rehash of an old email that's made the rounds and has been widely discredited.  Data is taken out of context, and many of the executive orders listed have been revoked.

Sure, we have a problem with excessive government, but let's not pretend that we're on the verge of concentration camps.

----------


## raiha

This is Judge Napolitano on liberties..you can see why RP is on fire. You need half an hour to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8QwT...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXzUL...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35yhS...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRukP...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-36NrJJA9I
'A Nation of Sheep' (he attacks Lincoln and Sherman in this one!)

----------


## OptionsTrader

> This is Judge Napolitano on liberties..you can see why RP is on fire. You need half an hour to watch.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8QwT...eature=related
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXzUL...eature=related
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35yhS...eature=related
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRukP...eature=related
> ...


Great video of the Judge.

Bump.

----------


## V4Vendetta

bump

----------


## Nathan Hale

> bump


Why bump this thread?  

I know, I'm bumping it too by replying, but I'm making a point, and it's this:

The video at the start of this thread shows us nothing conclusive.  It's a lot of raw information to which you and others are applying a context that you cannot prove.

Supplying these threads with evidence of government wrongdoing is great, but make sure that's it's actual evidence and not speculation.

----------


## V4Vendetta

> Why bump this thread?  
> 
> I know, I'm bumping it too by replying, but I'm making a point, and it's this:
> 
> The video at the start of this thread shows us nothing conclusive.  It's a lot of raw information to which you and others are applying a context that you cannot prove.
> 
> Supplying these threads with evidence of government wrongdoing is great, but make sure that's it's actual evidence and not speculation.


I am bumping this thread because various police officials from around the country have verified this.

----------


## Nathan Hale

> I am bumping this thread because various police officials from around the country have verified this.


They've verified what, exactly?

And who are these police officials?

----------


## Uggamugg

During that time and, only from a British perspective, American founding fathers could be considered agitators or worse, but that can only be said in historical context.

The pamphlet is scary but not unexpected.  I wonder if these "teachers" and the students actually believe everything or are just trying to pay the mortgage.  Maybe it's a desire for power or herd-mentality issue.  I hope they see their mistakes but I doubt it.

"Remember, the storm is a good opportunity for the pine and the cypress to show their strength and their stability."
~Ho Chi Minh

----------


## Uggamugg

> Which Executive Orders?


This is the most detailed site I have found that includes all the executive orders, bills passed by congress and other actions taken by the federal government to take away civil liberties.

http://mondoglobo.ning.com/group/que...3ATopic%3A2937

----------


## Nathan Hale

> This is the most detailed site I have found that includes all the executive orders, bills passed by congress and other actions taken by the federal government to take away civil liberties.
> 
> http://mondoglobo.ning.com/group/que...3ATopic%3A2937


George Bush believes that fighting the war on terror requires aggressive intelligence gathering and counterterrorism on the homefront.  It's a stupid belief.  It needs to be fought against.  But it's not evidence of some black helicopter conspiracy to turn America into a police state.

----------


## V4Vendetta

> George Bush believes that fighting the war on terror requires aggressive intelligence gathering and counterterrorism on the homefront.  It's a stupid belief.  It needs to be fought against.  But it's not evidence of some black helicopter conspiracy to turn America into a police state.


Wow, the Black Helicopter's were a real thing happening back in the 90's Under Bill Clinton

(They were Black Hawks)

Don't believe it?
Watch this... Documented Proof from around the country
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

----------


## V4Vendetta

Nathan Hale

Did you get a chance to watch it?

----------


## Nathan Hale

> Wow, the Black Helicopter's were a real thing happening back in the 90's Under Bill Clinton
> 
> (They were Black Hawks)
> 
> Don't believe it?
> Watch this... Documented Proof from around the country
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0


Sounds like fun.  Unfortunately I don't care enough about this thread to watch a two hour long movie, but as luck would have it, I am quite familiar with Alex Jones and he's simply not a credible person.  Unless Jones provides something he could take to a court, he's probably just full of $#@!.  But that's just my opinion.

Oh, and I'm still waiting for an answer regarding my comments in post #101.  Thanks.

----------


## Nathan Hale

> Nathan Hale
> 
> Did you get a chance to watch it?


You might not want to wait up for this one.

----------


## V4Vendetta

> Sounds like fun.  Unfortunately I don't care enough about this thread to watch a two hour long movie, but as luck would have it, I am quite familiar with Alex Jones and he's simply not a credible person.  Unless Jones provides something he could take to a court, he's probably just full of $#@!.  But that's just my opinion.
> 
> Oh, and I'm still waiting for an answer regarding my comments in post #101.  Thanks.


People that don't want to research subjects invite their own destruction.

Post #101
Through Jack Mclambs organization - and other organizations.

----------


## Nathan Hale

> People that don't want to research subjects invite their own destruction.


I love to research subjects!  I do it all the time.  But there are only so many hours in a day.  If you want to debate something in these boards, then I'm happy to debate what you say in these boards.  But I don't have time to go off site and sift through what amount to biased propaganda docudramas.  Lead with some solid logic and factual evidence, and then refer me to a site, and I'll probably want to read up on it.  But you're simply not presenting that kind of evidence here.





> Post #101
> Through Jack Mclambs organization - and other organizations.


You mean, Jack McLamb, soldier of Christ and head of "Police and Military Against the New World Order"?  You'll have to excuse me for thinking that Mr McLamb needs to produce something other than his word.

----------


## V4Vendetta

blimp!

----------


## V4Vendetta

bump

----------


## Ron Galt

So Glenn Beck was right after all!  Ron Paul makes numerious references to the US Constitution and is against the UN... That makes him and his followers all very dangerious people.  Should we turn ourselves in for re-education now or wait for them to come pick us up?

----------


## Nathan Hale

> blimp!


Still bumping this thread, V?  I'm still waiting for any evidence whatsoever that the video that started this thread shows us anything conclusive.

----------


## pcosmar

> Still bumping this thread, V? I'm still waiting for any evidence whatsoever that the video that started this thread shows us anything conclusive.


By the time you see any proof that you will accept it will be way too late.

----------


## Dr.3D

You are not going to see or hear about any of this on the main stream media.

You will find out about it when it happens to you!

----------


## steve005

bump




> You are not going to see or hear about any of this on the main stream media.
> 
> You will find out about it when it happens to you!


bump

----------


## Warrior_of_Freedom

This has to be fake

----------


## Srg1

One mans terrorists,is another mans freedom fighter.

----------


## Ernest

Great post. This crap comes from the very dangerous and federally sponsored SPLC. The SPLC helps train both federal & state law enforcement.

----------


## Nathan Hale

> By the time you see any proof that you will accept it will be way too late.


I accept a great variety of evidence, my burden of proof is far from demanding.  Alas, I see absolutely no evidence in that video.  The speaker is not defined.  The audience is not defined.  The subject and position taken by the speaker is not defined.  The video tells us nothing.

The only thing we have to go on is one person's wild speculation.

If that kind of flippant analysis is enough to put you in a tizzy, then you need to slow your roll.

----------


## Nathan Hale

> Great post. This crap comes from the very dangerous and federally sponsored SPLC. The SPLC helps train both federal & state law enforcement.


I assume that you're talking about the Southern Poverty Law Center here, if so I have some questions.

Do you have evidence linking the video at the start of this thread to the SPLC?  

What makes you consider the SPLC "Very dangerous"? 

I was under the impression that the SPLC was privately funded.  Could you cite a source for your claim that they are government funded?

Thanks.

----------


## asgardshill

> Sounds like fun.  Unfortunately I don't care enough about this thread to watch a two hour long movie, but as luck would have it, I am quite familiar with Alex Jones and he's simply not a credible person.  Unless Jones provides something he could take to a court, he's probably just full of $#@!.  But that's just my opinion.


I like the cut of your jib, sir.  Getting a straight answer out of these people when it comes to grifter and propagandist Alex Jones is a task equal to the cleaning out of the Augean Stables.  Jones and his fellow propagandists have always found it easier to rant and scream about bogeymen than to provide any actual proof that they exist anywhere other than under their beds and inside their heads.

----------


## pcosmar

Tories

----------


## Nathan Hale

> Tories


As a person who's studied the revolutionary period of American history for the last 3 years, I won't even begin to discuss how far off the mark you are with that comment.

You know, pcosmar, for a while (in this very thread) you were showing signs of progress.  You started off as just another tin foil hat looking for a conspiracy, but I showed you that 99% of the population needs more than the word of chicken little.  They want evidence.  And, for a while, you were starting to play ball.  When I challenged you, you did some homework and attempted to justify your argument.  Now you're just throwing around insults.

For shame.

----------


## V4Vendetta

> Still bumping this thread, V? I'm still waiting for any evidence whatsoever that the video that started this thread shows us anything conclusive.





> By the time you see any proof that you will accept it will be way too late.


Well I guess I could join up in my local police Academy, and see if they teach us to ignore the constitution, and that Samuel Adams was a terrorists, Problem is, I don't think I have that much time to spare.

----------


## Nathan Hale

> Well I guess I could join up in my local police Academy, and see if they teach us to ignore the constitution, and that Samuel Adams was a terrorists, Problem is, I don't think I have that much time to spare.


Why bother doing all that?  You don't require evidence.  All you need is a youtube video with an undefined speaker, an undefined audience, and an undefined presentation.  Invent a little context and viola, instant conspiracy.

----------


## V4Vendetta

> Why bother doing all that?  You don't require evidence.  All you need is a youtube video with an undefined speaker, an undefined audience, and an undefined presentation.  Invent a little context and viola, instant conspiracy.


Instant suspicion.... Yep, sure as hell looks like a possible conspiracy to me!

----------


## Redcard

Proves nothing.  I can make a video that talks about the FED as though it was being presented at the FED.. and I could make it look like the FED.. but that doesn't make it credible.

----------


## Ira Aten

Quote from Scmessier:  


> I'd like to see the full video of the class to place it in context.


Not to worry, they will probably be playing it in the camps when you get there.

----------


## V4Vendetta

> Quote from Scmessier:  
> 
> Not to worry, they will probably be playing it in the camps when you get there.


lmao! but no, seriously, I feel very sorry for those kind of people.

Pick up a bible, and read REVELATION

talks bout it all right there!

----------


## HOLLYWOOD

> lmao! but no, seriously, I feel very sorry for those kind of people.
> 
> Pick up a bible, and read REVELATION
> 
> talks bout it all right there!


Maybe they should be POLICING all the deadly FEMA TRAILERS? 

They need to worry about the TON of CLASS ACTION LAW SUITS coming their way with the KATRINA TRAILERS:

Of course the whistle blowers came forward and exposed the cover-up of the deadly known human carcinogen  Formaldehyde.  The Formaldehyde levels in the FEMA TRAILERS people have been living in, measure over 300% the maximum allowable levels,  worst off, it's leading to CANCER and Birth Defects.

I wonder if BUSH and Chertoff will grant immunity to all of FEMA?

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/f...k/formaldehyde

----------


## V4Vendetta

I hate to think How bad it will be

----------


## Nathan Hale

> Instant suspicion.... Yep, sure as hell looks like a possible conspiracy to me!


So you're telling me that you are willing to jump to a conclusion based on something like the video at the start of this thread?

----------


## Nathan Hale

> lmao! but no, seriously, I feel very sorry for those kind of people.
> 
> Pick up a bible, and read REVELATION
> 
> talks bout it all right there!


Revelation....right......

----------


## Mach

Here are some "papers" from the "Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities of the United States Senate, 94th Congress, 2nd Session, 1976"..............

http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointelpro/cointel.htm


I know, "that was a long time ago", do you think that they did all of this, but, have corrected their selves since then?  Technology just makes it easier.

There's not going to be a bunch of "evidence" laying around, out in the open.

http://w2.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/06/696.asp

Dig in.
http://www.schneier.com/essay-145.html

Here is a  corporate sales and marketing commercial.

http://cryptome.org/airport1.swf

----------


## Mach

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/01...ust-foreigners

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/01...xplains-it-all

----------


## V4Vendetta

interesting links, thanks

----------


## Nathan Hale

> Here are some "papers" from the "Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities of the United States Senate, 94th Congress, 2nd Session, 1976"..............
> 
> http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointelpro/cointel.htm


Yeah, COINTELPRO was bad.  WE don't need proof for stuff like this b/c it's well documented.




> I know, "that was a long time ago", do you think that they did all of this, but, have corrected their selves since then?  Technology just makes it easier.


Evidence is still required to show wrongdoing.




> There's not going to be a bunch of "evidence" laying around, out in the open.


No.  Evidence has and always will involve gathering.  It needs to be found.




> http://w2.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/


This link is a good collection of data, but the issue is already mainstream.  There is also no evidence pointing to purposeful collusion toward the creation of a police state.  As far as we know this is simply a misguided trend.




> http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/06/696.asp


Looks to me like a misguided attempt to better collect traffic data.




> Dig in.
> http://www.schneier.com/essay-145.html


Hey man, I'm with you.  These programs need to be shut down.  But I'm not going to assume that these programs are part of some overarching police state plan unless I'm giving cause to feel that way.  There are a great many people who argue in favor of these programs, and they're all not ignorant or closet fascists.  They're just misguided.  They think freedom for security is a good trade.  They need to be removed from power.  But before we start accusing the government of purposeful malevolence toward the people, we'd best have some evidence.




> Here is a  corporate sales and marketing commercial.
> 
> http://cryptome.org/airport1.swf


You're in luck, it's a commercial.  Corporations never deliver on what is promised in commercials.  I mean, is your airport experience anywhere close to what is portrayed in that video?




> http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/01...ust-foreigners


Yeah, this is horrible.  The policy should be changed.  But this doesn't point to anything that we don't already know.




> http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/01...xplains-it-all


Once again, where's the beef?  I don't see any evidence related to a sinister underpinning other than cronyism, which is openly rampant in this administration.

----------


## V4Vendetta

bump

----------


## V4Vendetta

bump

----------


## Nathan Hale

> bump


Why?  What reason do you have to think that this video is genuine?

----------


## V4Vendetta

bump

----------


## WV Freedom Fighter

Video aside, What I take offense to is that pamplet put out and being called a "terriorist" because I stand behind the Constitution, and because I am a Christian. I was born in this Country and would never do anything to hurt it or anyone, then they have the balls to say WE are TERRIORISTS? And we just let it slide and go hide somewhere? I for one will not hide, if the founding fathers were alive today, they would be fighting right NOW! I am ashamed at some of the responses in this thread, ashamed of our government, but most of all, ashamed of the American people for letting it get this far out of control. But as long as we have our TV's, video games, internet, etc. everything is all right. Please...for the love of God, WAKE UP PEOPLE! Before it's to late!

----------


## Crickett

> I put it here so the people coming to this thread will understand whats going on in the Federal Government
> 
> SHAME on you if you don't want people to know this


Goes in Liberty Forest..NP!

----------


## josh24601

I have to admit this is a pretty easy bunch of people to troll.

----------


## V4Vendetta

> I have to admit this is a pretty easy bunch of people to troll.


what do you mean?

----------


## Nathan Hale

> bump


Still bumping this thread despite the fact that you have no information whatsoever about the video?

----------


## V4Vendetta

whats does it look like to you?

----------


## Nathan Hale

It looks to me like you ARE, in fact, bumping this thread despite the fact that you have no information about this video...unless of course you actually have some evidence pertaining to the the identity of the speaker, the identity of the audience, or the concept being taught.

Don't push a video just because it agrees with you.  Push it because you KNOW who's speaking, and you KNOW who he's speaking to, and you KNOW exactly what he's trying to say.  If you KNOW all of these things, then please, spread that information far and wide.  But in order to successfully spread this information, you need to also spread WHY you KNOW it.  Sources and evidence are required.  Otherwise you're just a propagandist, and that makes you no better than the people we all supposedly oppose.

----------


## V4Vendetta

I WILL BUMP MY OWN THREAD IF I WANT TO.... PISS OFF

The Brochure is REAL.... that BROCHURE was really given out by the FBI!

They now have a new one given out, that says guys wearing Levis jeans are terrorists!

----------


## V4Vendetta

slk

----------


## Nathan Hale

> I WILL BUMP MY OWN THREAD IF I WANT TO.... PISS OFF


Dude, you can bang your head against a wall a thousand times for all I care, but you're never going to spread the truth by posting random, unattributed videos.  The only people you'll bring to your banner are gullible fools needy for conspiracy.  If that's what you want to offer, then that's cool, but I'm here to learn the truth.  And that means sourcing my information as best I can.




> The Brochure is REAL.... that BROCHURE was really given out by the FBI!
> 
> They now have a new one given out, that says guys wearing Levis jeans are terrorists!


Quick, to the batcopter at Bohemian Grove!

----------


## Mach

Nathan Hale, who are you, are you for "Freedom", what is your point as far as attacking someone and their Post so consistently, you're not even just taking care of things in a "business" manor, you seem to have established a personal fervor in "attacking" V.............

all you need to do now is provide some "proof" as far as your genuine loyalty to Ron Paul and/or his opinions.... by the way don't bother stating that the video/subject in this Post is not what Ron Paul is for, these words are in no way shape and/or form implying that.......

You are working very hard at picking....... to the point that it is downright disrespectful and weak. For something that is supposedly so "foolish" you sure are wasting a lot of time on it, If you see that someone is wrong, correct them and move along, kind of immature to ramble on and on "going off" and saying things like...........

"Quick, to the batcopter at Bohemian Grove!"
- Nathan Hale

You are one of the main sources of this Post getting kicked to the top of the list over and over, it seems like you do it for *you*..... where is any of your "Proof" that a Police State is not in development, show your proof, there is no reason to keep telling others to prove their opinions, they are just personal opinions, I have eyes and can see, just because I have no proof does not mean I will ignore it.......

----------


## Nathan Hale

> Nathan Hale, who are you, are you for "Freedom", what is your point as far as attacking someone and their Post so consistently, you're not even just taking care of things in a "business" manor, you seem to have established a personal fervor in "attacking" V.............


I'm not "attack[ing]" V.  I am attacking his support for this video, because he is assuming important information.  I am simply asking for his evidence that the video is what he says it is.




> all you need to do now is provide some "proof" as far as your genuine loyalty to Ron Paul and/or his opinions.... by the way don't bother stating that the video/subject in this Post is not what Ron Paul is for, these words are in no way shape and/or form implying that.......


Why would I want to do that?  I'm not trying to communicate that I'm "loyal" to Ron Paul.  




> You are working very hard at picking....... to the point that it is downright disrespectful and weak. For something that is supposedly so "foolish" you sure are wasting a lot of time on it, If you see that someone is wrong, correct them and move along, kind of immature to ramble on and on "going off" and saying things like...........


Because I consider it foolish, I am of the opinion that it's important that we confront it.  I'm not picking.  In fact I'm asking the most logical questions.  He assumes that this video is somehow evidence of government conspiracy.  A logical person seeks to VERIFY that claim.




> "Quick, to the batcopter at Bohemian Grove!"
> - Nathan Hale


Yeah, that was a good one.




> You are one of the main sources of this Post getting kicked to the top of the list over and over, it seems like you do it for *you*.....


Oh, I don't mind the thread getting bumped, so long as it is this conversation that's getting it bumped.  It's not about me, hell, nobody here even knows who I am.  This is entirely anonymous.  I just want people to see that it's important to get evidence - even when the claim is something that we agree with.




> where is any of your "Proof" that a Police State is not in development, show your proof, there is no reason to keep telling others to prove their opinions, they are just personal opinions, I have eyes and can see, just because I have no proof does not mean I will ignore it.......


I think this is our disconnect.  I'm not claiming that there is no police state in development.  I'm not claiming ANYTHING on the subject.  All I'm asking is that the person who IS making the claim, support the claim with evidence.

----------


## pcosmar

Nathan Hale  
I had stayed away from this for a while, but will step in again.
There is NO web site defining or admitting to a plan for World Domination. There is not a single source that proves "it all".
There are numerous sites that have pieces, facts, and history.
Many groups track this.
Lots of documented evidence is available.

Math was never my best subject, but I can still add.
1+1+1=3
2+2=4
3+4=7
I can also research, read and think critically
The video in question by itself does not prove much, but added to the overwhelming body of evidence and the laws recently passed, and the direction that we have been moving, it is not hard to come to a logical conclusion.
The Government is not our friend and does not have our best interests in mind.
They are becoming our enemy.

Are you here to defend FEMA?
It should not exist.
Do you trust FEMA?

I DO NOT!!

----------


## Nathan Hale

> Nathan Hale  
> I had stayed away from this for a while, but will step in again.
> There is NO web site defining or admitting to a plan for World Domination. There is not a single source that proves "it all".
> There are numerous sites that have pieces, facts, and history.
> Many groups track this.
> Lots of documented evidence is available.


You have a collection of random data, most of it coming from shady sources, in which you see a pattern.  Just like aliens and global warming, it's easy to see a pattern in data, especially when you're looking for something.  There is no set line in the sand as to when you can consider data to have amounted to anything serious, but the theorists have yet to cross that threshold, and as such this video is worthless unless somebody knows exactly what it shows and where it comes from.




> Math was never my best subject, but I can still add.
> 1+1+1=3
> 2+2=4
> 3+4=7
> I can also research, read and think critically


Then why ARENT you?  This video is as vague as they come.  Nobody knows who made it.  Nobody knows exactly what is being communicated.  Nobody knows who is speaking.  And nobody knows the audience.  The conclusions that people are drawing from this video are not logically founded, and will not be gounded without some more information about exactly what the video is.  This is not a case where 1+1=2, too much information is missing.




> The video in question by itself does not prove much, but added to the overwhelming body of evidence and the laws recently passed, and the direction that we have been moving, it is not hard to come to a logical conclusion.
> The Government is not our friend and does not have our best interests in mind.
> They are becoming our enemy.


And the burden of proof is on us to show that.  That's why we need to think critically when something is put on our plate.  Instead of assuming its veracity and adding it to the pile of other "evidence" whose veracity is mostly also assumed, we need to look at it and ask the tough questions.  Why?  Because the only way to stand up to a bad government is to recruit a lot more people to the cause - I'm talking orders of magnitude more.  And that requires presenting only that which you can back up.  Perhaps this video is good to show people.  Perhaps it isn't.  But it is only useful to the movement if we can show people, with evidence, that it is what we think it is.




> Are you here to defend FEMA?
> It should not exist.
> Do you trust FEMA?
> 
> I DO NOT!!


Since when did the failure to follow lockstep on every opportunity to criticize the government turn into tacit support for the government?  I haven't made a single statement in support of FEMA in this thread.  The only reason you assume I support them is because I'm challenging a frivolous claim against them.  I do this sort of devil's advocacy because many of us fail to approach things like this video with the required perspective and intellectual acuity.

----------


## pcosmar

And yet another piece of the puzzle.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl.../ED5OUPQJ7.DTL



> Beginning in 1999, the government has entered into a series of single-bid contracts with Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg, Brown and Root (KBR) to build detention camps at undisclosed locations within the United States. The government has also contracted with several companies to build thousands of railcars, some reportedly equipped with shackles, ostensibly to transport detainees.
> 
> According to diplomat and author Peter Dale Scott, the KBR contract is part of a Homeland Security plan titled ENDGAME, which sets as its goal the removal of "all removable aliens" and "potential terrorists."





> A clue as to where Harman's commission might be aiming is the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act, a law that labels those who "engage in sit-ins, civil disobedience, trespass, or any other crime in the name of animal rights" as terrorists. Other groups in the crosshairs could be anti-abortion protesters, anti-tax agitators, immigration activists, environmentalists, peace demonstrators, Second Amendment rights supporters ... the list goes on and on. According to author Naomi Wolf, the National Counterterrorism Center holds the names of roughly 775,000 "terror suspects" with the number increasing by 20,000 per month.


MSM report. For those that need one.
Personally I am finding the Alternative News Sources to be more credible by the day.

----------


## New York For Paul

Ron Paul supporters probably are on the list. Several people at CPAC reported that they held a meeting at the Capitol Hill Club in Washington D.C. and two FBI officials showed up and identified themselves and were there to observe a meeting of conservative activists.

Apparently the FBI wants to keep track of young conservative activists.
The Capitol Hill Club is right next to the Republican National Committee.

----------


## Nathan Hale

> And yet another piece of the puzzle.


Charged wording, to be sure, but I don't deal in rhetoric.  Let's look at your "piece of the puzzle".




> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl.../ED5OUPQJ7.DTL
> 
> MSM report. For those that need one.


Four points of contention:

First, it's not an "MSM report", it's an opinion piece written by Naderite environmentalists who have no affiliation at all with the newspaper.

Second, regarding your quip "for those that need one": We all need the "MSM" to report on these things if we're ever going to succeed at changing this country's fate.

Third, the authors' main claim and the one you called out, that KBR is building detention camps, is made without evidence.  Their only attribution for the information is Peter Dale Scott, a poet/Berkeley professor/conspiracy theorist who needs to bring something to the table other than his word.

Fourth, most of the article isn't about contested information.  The article simply details legislation of which the public is already well aware.  This is all legislation we must fight, but it's not evidence that there is a government conspiracy to institute a police state.  I fight this sort of stuff every day, and I do it without trying to convince people that there's a conspiracy behind it.  You should do the same, unless, of course, you can show people that there's a conspiracy behind it (hint: doing so requires evidence).




> Personally I am finding the Alternative News Sources to be more credible by the day.


Such as?  What "Alternative News Sources" do you consider "more credible by the day"?

----------


## Nathan Hale

> Ron Paul supporters probably are on the list. Several people at CPAC reported that they held a meeting at the Capitol Hill Club in Washington D.C. and two FBI officials showed up and identified themselves and were there to observe a meeting of conservative activists.
> 
> Apparently the FBI wants to keep track of young conservative activists.
> The Capitol Hill Club is right next to the Republican National Committee.


Did they catalog this information?  Take the officers' names?  Did they record the conversation that transpired?  It's important, when things like this happen, that we take down as much information as possible.  Because communicating this to others involves not just telling them what happened, but showing them what happened, and providing them with information that they can count on, regardless of what they thing of the individual communicating that information.  It's a tough job, but it's a job that activists need to do.

----------


## New York For Paul

> Did they catalog this information?  Take the officers' names?  Did they record the conversation that transpired?  It's important, when things like this happen, that we take down as much information as possible.  Because communicating this to others involves not just telling them what happened, but showing them what happened, and providing them with information that they can count on, regardless of what they thing of the individual communicating that information.  It's a tough job, but it's a job that activists need to do.


I am not sure what they did. I think they were shocked, surprised and found it funny that the FBI would come to their meeting when there so many other worthy targets and terrorists probably hanging around the DC area. 

Many of the 911 terrorists lived right near the CIA headquarters and NSA headquarters. There are probably a few leftover terrorists that they failed to pick up. 

They people did note that the FBI probably got the meeting location off of a myspace page. 

It looks like the FBI is looking at certain Christian conservative groups.

----------


## Nathan Hale

> I am not sure what they did. I think they were shocked, surprised and found it funny that the FBI would come to their meeting when there so many other worthy targets and terrorists probably hanging around the DC area.


You're assuming that the FBI considered them targets.  You said that they reported that the FBI showed up and said they were there to observe a meeting of conservative activists.  That says almost nothing of their motive.  Perhaps the people at the meeting have some more information?




> Many of the 911 terrorists lived right near the CIA headquarters and NSA headquarters. There are probably a few leftover terrorists that they failed to pick up.


Where did you hear this?




> They people did note that the FBI probably got the meeting location off of a myspace page.


That's the downside of the internet's ability to make planning easy...anybody can see the plans.




> It looks like the FBI is looking at certain Christian conservative groups.


Was this conservative group a specifically Christian group?

----------


## New York For Paul

It was probably a conservative, political Christian group.

I read quite alot about the 9/11 terrorists on WND.com  

These guys were always in trouble with the law. According to news reports, fairfax county police were called to their house repeatedly for noise violations. It became a rooming house for middle eastern men. The landlord even converted the living room into another bedroom. There were all sorts of fancy cars coming by all hours of the night pissing off the neighbors.

The address and picture of the house were posted on several news sites. 

The irony is that the house was just several miles from the CIA. The terrorists got the fake driver licenses at a seven eleven right near where George H.W. Bush goes for his favorite Chinese food. 

Another set of hijackers lived in Maryland, near the National Security Agency. The hijackers would drive past the entrance of the agency whose employees were supposed to be looking for guys just like these. 

They were right under their noses.

Most of these stories can still be googled.

----------


## V4Vendetta

bump

----------


## rtil

doesn't look very legit to me.

----------


## RonRules

Why is FEMA making an instructional video about terrorism?  Their job is to help in case of a major disaster, not build another FBI/CIA/Homeland Security organization.   No wonder they couln't do their job in New Orleans.

----------


## amonasro

Looks like the original text of that pamphlet was photoshopped over.   Why does it look like someone took a tube of white-out to it?

----------


## Nathan Hale

I'm not finding any of these.  Can you link me through to them?




> It was probably a conservative, political Christian group.
> 
> I read quite alot about the 9/11 terrorists on WND.com  
> 
> These guys were always in trouble with the law. According to news reports, fairfax county police were called to their house repeatedly for noise violations. It became a rooming house for middle eastern men. The landlord even converted the living room into another bedroom. There were all sorts of fancy cars coming by all hours of the night pissing off the neighbors.
> 
> The address and picture of the house were posted on several news sites. 
> 
> The irony is that the house was just several miles from the CIA. The terrorists got the fake driver licenses at a seven eleven right near where George H.W. Bush goes for his favorite Chinese food. 
> ...

----------


## Nathan Hale

> Why is FEMA making an instructional video about terrorism?  Their job is to help in case of a major disaster, not build another FBI/CIA/Homeland Security organization.   No wonder they couln't do their job in New Orleans.


I don't know if you've been reading this whole thread, but the people who posted the video have yet to show that it's a FEMA video.

----------


## newyearsrevolution08

> It looks to me like you ARE, in fact, bumping this thread despite the fact that you have no information about this video...unless of course you actually have some evidence pertaining to the the identity of the speaker, the identity of the audience, or the concept being taught.
> 
> Don't push a video just because it agrees with you.  Push it because you KNOW who's speaking, and you KNOW who he's speaking to, and you KNOW exactly what he's trying to say.  If you KNOW all of these things, then please, spread that information far and wide.  But in order to successfully spread this information, you need to also spread WHY you KNOW it.  Sources and evidence are required.  Otherwise you're just a propagandist, and that makes you no better than the people we all supposedly oppose.


Nathan needs evidence, the little guy seems to really get off on it from most his posts. Crazy stuff indeed.

----------


## Nirvikalpa

> Apparently the FBI wants to keep track of young conservative activists.


Oh dear.    I'm really going to be on the look-out for now on.

----------


## newyearsrevolution08

> Still bumping this thread, V?  I'm still waiting for any evidence whatsoever that the video that started this thread shows us anything conclusive.


Bump for evidence for Nathan, the man cannot live without it

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Stop this conspiracy crap!!  If you must spout it, please take it somewhere other than the Ron Paul grassroots section of this forum.  Geez!


Ok, maybe posted in the wrong forum subsection.

Can you please explain how this is a "conspiracy"?

That *was* a FEMA instructor.

That *was* a pamphlet published and printed by the FBI.

Homeland (in) Security websites *do* post the same information as that pamphlet.

A man in Kansas *was* "interrogated" by FBI for teaching the Bill of Rights to a Boy Scout troop.

US armed forces *have* practiced drills for martial law here.

Now, you can argue that these are "isolated events", done by a few "bad apples". 

Doing so is naive and foolish, but it's your right.

What you *cannot* do is argue these events, and hundreds just like them, are taking place every day.

You *all* better bone up on this phrase:

_But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government,_

What was Jefferson talking about here?

"Evinces a design" = "conspiracy theory".

That is what some of you would have called his document, the "mindless ramblings of a conspiracy theorist", you would have said that "King George has made mistakes and there are a few bad apples amongst the redcoats, but if we just keep working to elect good guys to parliament, then we'll get our rights as free Englishmen back".

You would have been wrong then, just as wrong as you are now.

I'm sorry if some of you refuse to see the "design" that is becoming perfectly clear. 

The design is for an enslaved populace, working within a perpetual welfare/warfare system, monitored, tracked and tagged like so many cattle, fruits of your labor confiscated and your sons sent to bleed out and die in wars that never end, all for the glory of the empire.

Put another way, "Absolute Despotism".

----------


## Nathan Hale

> Bump for evidence for Nathan, the man cannot live without it


Wow newyears, you must really like me to have taken the time to reply to every thread I've ever posted to.

----------


## FindLiberty

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with a result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by dictatorship. *<---- FEMA may have something to do with this transition.*

The average age of the world s greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to selfishness;
From selfishness to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependency;
From dependency back into bondage.

[Author unknown, it may have been Alexander Fraser Tyler (1748 - 1813)]

----------


## Nathan Hale

> Ok, maybe posted in the wrong forum subsection.
> 
> Can you please explain how this is a "conspiracy"?


It implies, according to its proponents, that FEMA is a plan by the fedgov to enslave the American people.




> That *was* a FEMA instructor.


We have yet to see a single ounce of evidence that the guy in the video was a FEMA instructor.




> That *was* a pamphlet published and printed by the FBI.
> 
> Homeland (in) Security websites *do* post the same information as that pamphlet.


But what it says it not incriminating, it's just stupid policy.




> A man in Kansas *was* "interrogated" by FBI for teaching the Bill of Rights to a Boy Scout troop.


Link, please.




> US armed forces *have* practiced drills for martial law here.


Source please.




> Now, you can argue that these are "isolated events", done by a few "bad apples". 
> 
> Doing so is naive and foolish, but it's your right.


Why is it "naive and foolish"?  Drawing unfounded conclusions is far more foolish than withholding judgment in favor of more evidence.




> What you *cannot* do is argue these events, and hundreds just like them, are taking place every day.


And we're not.  We just challenge you to show that they ARE.  Look at the specifics of each case.




> You *all* better bone up on this phrase:
> 
> _But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government,_
> 
> What was Jefferson talking about here?
> 
> "Evinces a design" = "conspiracy theory".


The difference between you and Jefferson is that Jefferson had proof.




> That is what some of you would have called his document, the "mindless ramblings of a conspiracy theorist", you would have said that "King George has made mistakes and there are a few bad apples amongst the redcoats, but if we just keep working to elect good guys to parliament, then we'll get our rights as free Englishmen back".


But that document wasn't written until millions of people supported the movement and they had an army in the field laying siege to Boston, so clearly Jefferson's Declaration of Independence was presented under a totally different set of circumstances than your crusade in the present day.




> You would have been wrong then, just as wrong as you are now.
> 
> I'm sorry if some of you refuse to see the "design" that is becoming perfectly clear.


Make no mistake.  I see designs that I cannot support with evidence.  But the design is not self-evident to most people, and thus evidence of that design is required in the discourse on that design.




> The design is for an enslaved populace, working within a perpetual welfare/warfare system, monitored, tracked and tagged like so many cattle, fruits of your labor confiscated and your sons sent to bleed out and die in wars that never end, all for the glory of the empire.
> 
> Put another way, "Absolute Despotism".


Great.  Now show it.

----------


## V4Vendetta

bump

----------


## VoteForRonPaul

> bump

----------


## Nathan Hale

> bump


What's the deal, V, looking for another go on this subject?

----------


## drew1503

This is fact, just as Operation Northwoods, USS Liberty, Gulf f Tonkin and Bayer selling drugs  to hemophiliacs tainted with the AIDS virus is fact. If you want to look the other way, by all means, handle your business.  Bush's Grandfather helped bankroll and made his fortune off the Nazi's, even after the war started as well as participating in the "Business Plot" which was a 500,000 man coup to ovethrow the US Government and install a fascist dictatorship.  
Pretending it does not exist does not make the problem dissappear.

----------


## Nathan Hale

> This is fact, just as Operation Northwoods, USS Liberty, Gulf f Tonkin and Bayer selling drugs  to hemophiliacs tainted with the AIDS virus is fact. If you want to look the other way, by all means, handle your business.  Bush's Grandfather helped bankroll and made his fortune off the Nazi's, even after the war started as well as participating in the "Business Plot" which was a 500,000 man coup to ovethrow the US Government and install a fascist dictatorship.  
> Pretending it does not exist does not make the problem dissappear.


While I would love to contest most of your post, I want to stay on topic here.  You open by saying "This is fact".  Are you referring to the video that opens this thread?  Or just the claim made by the unidentified speaker in the video that the founders were terrorists?

----------


## Golding

> I put it here so the people coming to this thread will understand whats going on in the Federal Government
> 
> SHAME on you if you don't want people to know this


Shame on you for trying to shame people into agreeing with you.

----------


## Danke

bump for TheAmistad

----------


## constitutional

> bump for TheAmistad


Bastard

----------


## V4Vendetta

Look, Glenn Beck, your true colors will soon shine. Will you turn out to be someone we can trust, or will you be another Paid off talking head?

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

> Look, Glenn Beck, your true colors will soon shine. Will you turn out to be someone we can trust, or will you be another Paid off talking head?


Now here is someone I haven't seen posting regular in a while.  Good thread to dig up.

P.S.  LE, in my grandiose "baby seal clubbing" ways, man what a nice phrase to coin, thanks Cowsley .  I couldn't help but chuckle at your first post in this thread, despite its age now

----------


## Nathan Hale

> Now here is someone I haven't seen posting regular in a while.  Good thread to dig up.


Yeah, good thread to dig up.  Perhaps he intends to finally produce some evidence to justify the claims he made at the start of this thread.

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

> Yeah, good thread to dig up.  Perhaps he intends to finally produce some evidence to justify the claims he made at the start of this thread.


Direct quote from the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPg9MdN9Gio

"What was the first terrorist organization in the United States?  Who?  The founding fathers."

Thread title:
FEMA Teaching Police"Founding Fathers were Terrorists"

It is conditioning.  The United States did not exist until the founding fathers created it.  The premise of the question is flawed.

Note from the you tube posterr:
Video featured in 9/11 Road to Tyranny that was taken at an Oklahoma meeting where a FEMA representative tells the local police that the founding fathers were terrorists. Is this America? 

Do I know for a fact the video is from FEMA?  No.  Can I buy into a presentation like this for police?  You betcha.

What are you disputing?

----------


## Nathan Hale

> Direct quote from the video.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPg9MdN9Gio
> 
> "What was the first terrorist organization in the United States?  Who?  The founding fathers."
> 
> Thread title:
> FEMA Teaching Police"Founding Fathers were Terrorists"


I watched the video - numerous times.  Why?  Because I was looking for some evidence that it was a video in which FEMA was teaching the police, as the thread's name implied.




> It is conditioning.  The United States did not exist until the founding fathers created it.  The premise of the question is flawed.


Take a listen to exactly what the speaker is saying.  While he mentions that the founders were "terrorists" he's not condemning them.  If anything, the unidentified speaker is attempting to break down the unidentified audience's preconceptions about what it means to be a terrorist.




> Note from the you tube posterr:
> Video featured in 9/11 Road to Tyranny that was taken at an Oklahoma meeting where a FEMA representative tells the local police that the founding fathers were terrorists. Is this America? 
> 
> Do I know for a fact the video is from FEMA?  No.  Can I buy into a presentation like this for police?  You betcha.


So you're taking it on faith.  Well that's fine and dandy, but that does nothing for the Cause.  The truth about this video still remains unknown.  The speaker remains unidentified.  The audience remains unidentified.  The subject and direction of the presentation remains unidentified.  Very little about that video is known to us, but too many of us seem more than willing to use it to incite others.




> What are you disputing?


The claim that this is a video showing a FEMA instructor teaching police, and the initial post's implication that the speaker was purposefully maligning the founders.

----------


## pcosmar

The existence of FEMA  is insulting to the founders.
The proof you are looking for is not in this video.

I doubt  that  you can find a direct reference in their materials that they are $#@!ting on the Constitution.
But they are.

----------


## Live_Free_Or_Die

> Take a listen to exactly what the speaker is saying.  While he mentions that the founders were "terrorists" he's not condemning them.  If anything, the unidentified speaker is attempting to break down the unidentified audience's preconceptions about what it means to be a terrorist.


That is conditioning.




> So you're taking it on faith.  Well that's fine and dandy, but that does nothing for the Cause.  The truth about this video still remains unknown.  The speaker remains unidentified.  The audience remains unidentified.  The subject and direction of the presentation remains unidentified.  Very little about that video is known to us, but too many of us seem more than willing to use it to incite others.


Any conditioning to the effect that people who are passionate about a belief are dangerous is an item of concern. 




> The claim that this is a video showing a FEMA instructor teaching police, and the initial post's implication that the speaker was purposefully maligning the founders.


Yes it is not a confirmed fact that it is FEMA or those are police but I have a few questions:

Where have you heard the term "civilian" used?
Where have you heard the term "civilian" used in conjunction with "biological agent"?
What is the shape in the projector when he says if they attack us?

Where are you drawing the implication of misaligning the founders?  Because I do not think of the video in that context at all.  Only in a conditioning context.

Do you think in any SHTF scenario someone will be posting a copy of an executive order in advance?

----------


## Nathan Hale

> That is conditioning.


I would consider it anti-conditioning, because he's taking a word like "terrorist" and applying it to a situation where our national bias doesn't often see terrorism.  If you asked me, I would say he was applying the term to our founders in the same way I've applied the term to our founders - to help people see the current day and age's struggle with a little more perspective.

That said, based on your post - ALL instruction is conditioning.




> Any conditioning to the effect that people who are passionate about a belief are dangerous is an item of concern.


That's not what he's teaching.  What he's teaching is that _criminals_ who are passionate about a belief are _more_ dangerous.  He's not trying to condition police to think that all people with passionate beliefs are threats.




> Yes it is not a confirmed fact that it is FEMA or those are police but I have a few questions:
> Where have you heard the term "civilian" used?
> Where have you heard the term "civilian" used in conjunction with "biological agent"?
> What is the shape in the projector when he says if they attack us?


I have neither the time nor the inclination for Socratic Method.  I'd rather you just made your case.




> Where are you drawing the implication of misaligning the founders?  Because I do not think of the video in that context at all.  Only in a conditioning context.


The opening post implies it.




> Do you think in any SHTF scenario someone will be posting a copy of an executive order in advance?


I'm not sure I follow....

----------


## pcosmar

Hoover is better remembered today for civil liberties abuses such as *COINTELPRO* program.

----------


## V4Vendetta

> Yeah, good thread to dig up.  Perhaps he intends to finally produce some evidence to justify the claims he made at the start of this thread.


Hey FED, Spook, or whoever you are, Piss off!!!!!!!!!
I guess this is a figment of my imagination also!!!!!!!!!
I am tired of your ass, I am so sick of you that I didn't even want to respond to you last time, you're a big waste of time.
http://www.infowars.com/secret-state...re-terrorists/







Where the heck do they get off saying the flag of the "Son's of Liberty" Flag is a symbol of terrorists? The son's of liberty were responsible for the Boston Tea Party!!!! These bastards that made, and distributed this FILTH should be brought up on charges of treason!!!!!!!!!



*This next page is VERY disturbing on several levels. The fact that they would include "America: Freedom to Fascism" & Zeitgiest to the Turner Diaries, is VERY disturbing!!!!!!!! They are not even CLOSE to being related, the turner diaries is a racists white supremacists book!!!!!!!!*

----------


## donnay

FEMA is nothing more than the Shadow Government.  Their interests are not to help people during a time of emergency or crisis, they were set up to make sure there is Continuity of Government in times of emergencies or crisis. 

Many naive people think they are rather inept, especially when it came to hurricanes, in the past--their not inept, they are doing exactly what they were set up to do!

Right after Katrina people figured the government would come in to save the day--how many days went by?  Disgruntled people started to get unruly, right around the fifth day.  FEMA stopped anyone trying to get water and food and medical attention.  Again, agitation and patience were wearing thin, but that's how they got away with sending troops in to quell the mob.

Government put troops on the streets in New Orleans to acclimate the people--nothing more.  They totally ignored the The Posse Comitatus Act and Second Amendment, and went into areas not even flooded, affluent areas, and started taking the citizens guns away. 

Here are all the executive orders that made it all possible:

http://www.dojgov.net/shadow_government.htm

40 Years of Executive Orders Trashes Our Constitutional Guarantee of Liberty

A Presidential Executive Order, whether Constitutional or not, becomes law simply by its publication in the Federal Registry.  Congress is bypassed.

Here are just a few Executive Orders that would suspend the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. These Executive Orders  could be enacted by the stroke of a Presidential pen.

It should be noted that over time, some of the following Executive Orders have been rescinded or replaced by others.  But the true terror to our liberty rests with the ease in which they can be issued and how earlier orders are frequently replaced by those of a more draconian nature:

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990 allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 10995 allows the government to seize and control the communication media.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 10997 allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998 allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000 allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11001 allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11002 designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003 allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11004 allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned, and establish new locations for populations.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11005 allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11051 specifies the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tensions and economic or financial crisis.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11310 grants authority to the Department of Justice to enforce the plans set out in Executive Orders, to institute industrial support, to establish judicial and legislative liaison, to control all aliens, to operate penal and correctional institutions, and to advise and assist the President.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11049 assigns emergency preparedness function to federal departments and agencies, consolidating 21 operative Executive Orders issued over a fifteen year period.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11921 allows the Federal Emergency Preparedness Agency to develop plans to establish control over the mechanisms of production and distribution, of energy sources, wages, salaries, credit and the flow of money in U.S. financial institution in any undefined national emergency. It also provides that when a state of emergency is declared by the President, Congress cannot review the action for six months.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 12148 created the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) that is to interface with the Department of Defense for civil defense planning and funding. An "emergency czar" was appointed. FEMA has only spent about 6 percent of its budget on national emergencies, the bulk of their funding has been used for the construction of secret underground facilities to assure continuity of government in case of a major emergency, foreign or domestic.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 12656 appointed the National Security Council as the principal body that should consider emergency powers. This allows the government to increase domestic intelligence and surveillance of U.S. citizens and would restrict the freedom of movement within the United States and granted the government the right to isolate large groups of civilians. The National Guard could be federalized to seal all borders and take control of U.S. air space and all ports of entry. Many of the figures in the Iran-Contra scandal were part of this emergency contingent, including Marine Colonel Oliver North.

The Federal Emergency Management Agency has broad powers in every aspect of the nation. General Frank Salzedo, chief of FEMA's Civil Security Division stated in a 1983 conference that he saw FEMA's role as a "new frontier in the protection of individual and governmental leaders from assassination, and of civil and military installations from sabotage and/or attack, as well as prevention of dissident groups from gaining access to U.S. opinion, or a global audience in times of crisis."

The Violent Crime Control Act of 1991 provides additional powers to the President of the United States, allowing the suspension of the Constitution and Constitutional rights of Americans during a "drug crisis". It provides for the construction of detention camps, seizure of property, and military control of populated areas.

When the Constitution of the United States was framed it placed the exclusive legislative authority in the hands of Congress and with the President. Article I, Section 1 of the United States Constitution is concise in its language, "All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives." That is no longer true. The Bill of Rights protected Americans against loss of freedoms. That is no longer true. The Constitution provided for a balanced separation of powers. That is no longer applicable.

Perhaps it can be summed up succinctly in the words of conservative activist Howard J. Ruff. "Since the enactment of Executive Order 11490, the only thing standing between us and dictatorship is the good character of the President, and the lack of a crisis severe enough that the public would stand still for it."

----------


## Danke

Executive Orders are NOT law.

Some orders do have the force of law when made in pursuance of certain *Acts of Congress*, when those acts give the President discretionary powers.

States still have to allow the Feds in.  Remember the flack Bush got for waiting to be asked by Louisiana?

----------


## Nathan Hale

> Hey FED, Spook, or whoever you are, Piss off!!!!!!!!!


Sticks and stones, sticks and stones.




> I guess this is a figment of my imagination also!!!!!!!!!


No.  It's not.  But it also doesn't provide any insight into the video that you led this thread with, so I don't see your point.




> I am tired of your ass, I am so sick of you that I didn't even want to respond to you last time, you're a big waste of time.


Yes, I am.  Since you're clearly a religious zealot on the issue, engaging me is a waste of time, because engaging me means engaging logic and evidence when it's so much more convenient for you to just believe.

----------


## donnay

> Executive Orders are NOT law.
> 
> Some orders do have the force of law when made in pursuance of certain *Acts of Congress*, when those acts give the President discretionary powers.
> 
> States still have to allow the Feds in.  Remember the flack Bush got for waiting to be asked by Louisiana?


"Stroke of the pen. Law of the Land. Kinda cool."
Paul Begala, former Clinton advisor, The New York Times, July 5, 1998 

_"Executive Orders do not require Congressional approval to take effect but they have the same legal weight as laws passed by Congress. The President's source of authority to issue Executive Orders can be found in the Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution which grants to the President the "executive Power." Section 3 of Article II further directs the President to "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed." To implement or execute the laws of the land, Presidents give direction and guidance to Executive Branch agencies and departments, often in the form of Executive Orders."_

http://www.thisnation.com/question/040.html

----------


## V4Vendetta

hmm its been awhile

----------


## MelissaWV

I see dead threads...

----------


## catdd

"Founding Fathers were Terrorists" 

It's true, we had guys that could shoot a British officer at 300 yds and that drove them nuts - NOBODY shot officers in those days.
We also perfected the art of ambush learned from the Indians which the English considered "uncouth".

Yep, we did what we had to do and didn't feel a need to apologize for it. $#@! em, if we hadn't we would not be a nation.

----------


## Nathan Hale

> hmm its been awhile


LOL.  Good one V.

----------


## V4Vendetta

over a year

----------


## Nathan Hale

> over a year


Hey V!

----------


## donnay

Excellent thread!

+rep

Just remember folks-- Sticking your heads in the sand still leaves your ass exposed!

----------


## Nathan Hale

This thread was classic.  We should stop in every so often and say hi.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

talk about a necro-bump!

----------


## Danke

> "Stroke of the pen. Law of the Land. Kinda cool."
> Paul Begala, former Clinton advisor, The New York Times, July 5, 1998 
> 
> _"Executive Orders do not require Congressional approval to take effect but they have the same legal weight as laws passed by Congress. The President's source of authority to issue Executive Orders can be found in the Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution which grants to the President the "executive Power." Section 3 of Article II further directs the President to "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed." To implement or execute the laws of the land, Presidents give direction and guidance to Executive Branch agencies and departments, often in the form of Executive Orders."_
> 
> http://www.thisnation.com/question/040.html


It looks as though you posted this as some sort of refutation of what I posted.  It isn't.  But may be a bit misleading to the untrained. 

And quoting a "former Clinton advisor" as authoritative, nice touch.

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## pcosmar

///
oops

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## pcosmar

> I see dead threads...





> talk about a necro-bump!


It's coming up on Halloween.

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## Nathan Hale

Happy Halloween everybody!

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## V4Vendetta

teaparty?

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## Nathan Hale

Hey V.  This is like when old warriors visit their battlefields years later.

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## V4Vendetta

lol true that

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## DamianTV

The only thing happening there is that those in power fear those who have the power to take away that power.  The Government calls them terrorists for having the ability and willingness to take that usurped power away, and returns it to where it truly belongs, in the hands of the People.  When Government understands and respects that their power is derived from The People, we will have peace with our Government, maybe not quite as much amongst ourselves.

When the People fear their Government, there is Tyranny.
When the Government fear The People, there is Liberty.

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## Nathan Hale

> The only thing happening there is that those in power fear those who have the power to take away that power.  The Government calls them terrorists for having the ability and willingness to take that usurped power away, and returns it to where it truly belongs, in the hands of the People.  When Government understands and respects that their power is derived from The People, we will have peace with our Government, maybe not quite as much amongst ourselves.
> 
> When the People fear their Government, there is Tyranny.
> When the Government fear The People, there is Liberty.


No, Damian.  Not here.  This thread's battle has been fought.  It is hallowed ground.  We come here to pay it reverence.

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## CaptainAmerica

An unknown individual or persons printed off this off at the FBI department in Arizona and disseminated it to agents to practice out on the field.

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## Anti Federalist

> No, Damian.  Not here.  This thread's battle has been fought.  It is hallowed ground.  We come here to pay it reverence.


+rep

<<<<Revered silence.

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## anaconda

Did anyone in the media ever follow up on this or get a statement from FEMA? This just seems to weird to be true, or at least official protocol. Could this simply have been one rogue loony instructor that wasn't following the lesson plan? I always see this clip of the FEMA training but never any info on investigative journalists exposing it. This seems every bit as bad as Missouri cracking down on people making references to the constitution or having Ron Paul bumper stickers.

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## moderate libertarian

I had heard the rumor around the time of Boston Tea Party anniversay that they were. They were not?  
Nelson Mandela is also classified as a terrorist by British/US regimes if I'm not mistaken.

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## Anti Federalist

> I had heard the rumor around the time of Boston Tea Party anniversay that they were. They were not?  
> Nelson Mandela is also classified as a terrorist by British/US regimes if I'm not mistaken.


The fact that the FEMA agent is right, is often overlooked here.

Had the word even been invented at the time, (it was not, political "terrorism" was coined as a description of the widespread executions of the Jacobin "Reign of Terror" 20 years later) they would certainly be labeled as such today.

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## BenAcel

Well I have overheard from Brian that this footage will be featured in his documentary America: From the Road of Freedom to the Streets of Fascism. I hope more can expose these corrupt FEMA commanders!

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## DamianTV

But someone is also telling the FEMA commanders what to do.  Is it Congress?  Doubt it.  The President?  Unlikely.  CIA?  More likely, but hard to track.  Oh, wait, I remember some words of wisdom, lets see if I get this right.  Not sure if I can, this quote is pretty long, like a whole Three Words:  "FOLLOW THE MONEY".  And it leads straight back to the Banks that issued the money in the first place.  Banks are the ones behind FEMA camps.  Plain and simple.  Why Banks?  Because they know we have caught on to their scam, we are pissed, and coming after them, so the only way they can protect themselves from facing our wrath is to twist the laws and contort them to make Lab Abiding Citizen mean the exact opposite of what it really does, so that the Banksters who are the Real Terrorists can maintain their rule over our Government with an Iron Grip.

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## Nathan Hale

> Did anyone in the media ever follow up on this or get a statement from FEMA? This just seems to weird to be true, or at least official protocol. Could this simply have been one rogue loony instructor that wasn't following the lesson plan? I always see this clip of the FEMA training but never any info on investigative journalists exposing it. This seems every bit as bad as Missouri cracking down on people making references to the constitution or having Ron Paul bumper stickers.


Anaconda  - check out the content of this thread before this point, it's an interesting read, and we go over the nature of the video, who is shown, etc, with a pretty fine-toothed comb.

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## Nathan Hale

> The fact that the FEMA agent is right, is often overlooked here.
> 
> Had the word even been invented at the time, (it was not, political "terrorism" was coined as a description of the widespread executions of the Jacobin "Reign of Terror" 20 years later) they would certainly be labeled as such today.


At some point in the thread I believe we discussed this.  Regardless of who is talking and who is listening in the video, it seems as though the teacher is trying to broaden the minds of the students by taking terrorism out of context and applying it to something that we revere rather than revile.  I actually think it's a good teaching, because it stops people from applying the word "terrorist" as the reason to hate Al Qaeda and forces them to actually justify their arguments without throwing around buzz-words.

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## V4Vendetta

Hmmm been awhile

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## donnay

Bump for the neocon slime-bag who still walks free amongst us.

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## Anti Federalist

Yeah, what I said.




> Ok, maybe posted in the wrong forum subsection.
> 
> Can you please explain how this is a "conspiracy"?
> 
> That *was* a FEMA instructor.
> 
> That *was* a pamphlet published and printed by the FBI.
> 
> Homeland (in) Security websites *do* post the same information as that pamphlet.
> ...

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## DamianTV

I smells a good place to throw a George Orwell quote in:

*10 George Orwell Quotes...*



> *“Threats to freedom of speech, writing and action, though often trivial in isolation, are cumulative in their effect and, unless checked, lead to a general disrespect for the rights of the citizen.”*

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## Nathan Hale

This was my favorite thread ever.

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## Ronin Truth

To the Tories, weren't they?

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## V4Vendetta



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