# Lifestyles & Discussion > Bitcoin / Cryptocurrencies >  If Bitcoins are anonymous...

## Gaddafi Duck

...then why have so many people come onto an public forum and shouted "I HAVE $500 IN BITCOINS!" while insisting it's completely anonymous...

Did anyone stop to think that your forum post can be linked back to the computer you use to buy/sell Bitcoins? Talk about putting a gigantic sign on your house saying "I store gold here" but putting it all in a lockbox in your closet.

FAIL!

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## dannno

Wow, you are very clever

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## Gaddafi Duck

> Wow, you are very clever


The sarcasm is amusing. Glad I could point it out.

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## Gaddafi Duck

From $113 to $147 back down to $113 in a matter of minutes. Whew! Glad to know one or two orders can whipsaw the illiquid Bitcoin market that much.

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## dannno

How do you tie posting on a forum to a specific bitcoin purchase? I wasn't aware that owning bitcoin was illegal.

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## PaulConventionWV

> The sarcasm is amusing. Glad I could point it out.


Me, too, Gaddafi Duck.  Me, too.

*sigh*

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## amonasro

> From $113 to $147 back down to $113 in a matter of minutes. Whew! Glad to know one or two orders can whipsaw the illiquid Bitcoin market that much.


It's nice to know people who are too dense to understand how Bitcoin works will not be profiting from them.

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## PaulConventionWV

> From $113 to $147 back down to $113 in a matter of minutes. Whew! Glad to know one or two orders can whipsaw the illiquid Bitcoin market that much.


Hours, not minutes.  I understand your concerns, but try not to exaggerate.

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## Gaddafi Duck

> How do you tie posting on a forum to a specific bitcoin purchase? I wasn't aware that owning bitcoin was illegal.


Wow, and I don't *get* it?

I thought my point was rather clear. You go onto a website and shout "I own Bitcoin." That would seem to indicate you're using Bitcoins, no? So your post, your user ID, on this website, can be traced back to your home computer, or whatever computer you are using. Haven't criminals been caught in internet cafes posting stuff in chatrooms? It's not hard to traceback.

Anyway, worst case scenario the government goes after all Bitcoin users, right? "But, but, but they can't because it's 100% anonymous. I use a proxy for all my Bitcoin transactions" and yet Google has already indexed this very website where it's logged dozens of people admitting they purchase, use, mine, and sell Bitcoins.

See where this could be a problem?

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## brandon

Bitcoins arent really anonymous. There is a publuc ledger of every transaction.

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## Gaddafi Duck

> Hours, not minutes.  I understand your concerns, but try not to exaggerate.


Oh, it only took a couple hours for a 30% swing? I feel all warm inside. That's IPO-type moves. Keep me out, Pets.com.

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## Gaddafi Duck

> Bitcoins arent really anonymous. There is a publuc ledger of every transaction.


Exactly. Now, just backtrace.

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## jclay2

> Hours, not minutes.  I understand your concerns, but try not to exaggerate.


When the post bubble crash happens, bitcoin could go down as much as 70-80 percent the day it happens. 10-20 percent moves in less than a minute can not be ruled out.

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## Gaddafi Duck

> When the post bubble crash happens, bitcoin could go down as much as 70-80 percent the day it happens. 10-20 percent moves in less than a minute can not be ruled out.


Of course! Like I said, even Zimbabwe had a more stable currency. At least a $100 trillion note was worth something for a few weeks. A Bitcoin accomplishes what only bankruptcy can: complete wipeout of value in a nanosecond. Only a bankrupt company could go from $1 billion to $0 in a stroke of a pen. Only Bitcoin can go from $115 to $0 in a keystroke. No fiat currency I know of in any hyperinflationary scenario has gone from generally accepted to not being accepted at all within 10 seconds. Even though hyperinflation snowballs, it takes months in the most extreme cases to go from stable value to burning it in your fireplace.

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## ronpaulfollower999

> Wow, and I don't *get* it?
> 
> I thought my point was rather clear. You go onto a website and shout "I own Bitcoin." That would seem to indicate you're using Bitcoins, no? So your post, your user ID, on this website, can be traced back to your home computer, or whatever computer you are using. Haven't criminals been caught in internet cafes posting stuff in chatrooms? It's not hard to traceback.
> 
> Anyway, worst case scenario the government goes after all Bitcoin users, right? "But, but, but they can't because it's 100% anonymous. I use a proxy for all my Bitcoin transactions" and yet Google has already indexed this very website where it's logged dozens of people admitting they purchase, use, mine, and sell Bitcoins.
> 
> See where this could be a problem?


And the government raids my house, takes my computer hard drive....and gasp...no Bitcoins! Ever heard of a brain wallet?

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## ronpaulfollower999

> Bitcoins arent really anonymous. There is a publuc ledger of every transaction.


This is true to an extent. Though it's still pretty much impossible to know how many Bitcoins one person owns, since they can be divided up into multiple wallets.

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## Gaddafi Duck

> And the government raids my house, takes my computer hard drive....and gasp...no Bitcoins! Ever heard of a brain wallet?


Hahah.. ohhh my...

So let's see...if the government raids your house, usually it's for a crime, no? Whether it's a legitimate crime or not is a different argument...we're assuming they're raiding your house because they know you own Bitcoins. 

Okay, keep them in your brain wallet, but here's 10 years in prison for money laundering. LoL...this is the type of debates I've been  having. Forget the fact the government can just shut down businesses and seize their log books of all the Bitcoin payments they accepted and to whom they shipped their products out to, which instantly dissolves the veil of anonymity you stood behind. Forget the fact the government raided your house and now has you on trial for Bitcoin conspiracy. But hey, I have it stored right up my my noggin!! While you're handcuffed on the stand....lmao

Like I said, if you buy ANYTHING physical online and have it shipped to you, you've voided any privacy. Someone has your name now. Unless you plan on consuming virtual ice cream cones, Bitcoins are not anonymous. And even then, every transaction is public domain. It won't take much for the FBI to backtrace all the transactions to individual people. You're just hoping they won't because it'll be a little time consuming. What do they care--FBI I.T. gets crazy $$$ for overtime.

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## jkr

it acts like GOLD


GET ZEeE GOoOoLDDDDD

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## dannno

> Like I said, if you buy ANYTHING physical online and have it shipped to you, you've voided any privacy.


How?? Again, most bitcoin users have multiple wallets, and often a different wallet is used for each transaction. 

Your limited understanding of how these transactions work is a bit disconcerting considering how hard you are hating on them.

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## Gaddafi Duck

> How?? Again, most bitcoin users have multiple wallets, and often a different wallet is used for each transaction. 
> 
> Your limited understanding of how these transactions work is a bit disconcerting considering how hard you are hating on them.


Lol...I'm getting ridiculously redundant. One more time...

If you buy something with bitcoin, have it shipped TO YOU, then it's pretty obvious who you are, and what your bitcoin ID is. When the Feds pull up invoice #123 and see dannno bought a tshirt for 0.25 bitcoins, and have your address because it's right there in the invoice, I don't know how you can claim it's all private.

That's my last attempt at explaining that. Assuming you've purchased something online some point in your life and had it delivered, you should know your address is logged. In fact, if you buy something with bitcoin there's a good chance you're on a marketing list.

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## Gaddafi Duck

I don't even understand how you can quote this




> Like I said, if you buy ANYTHING physical online and have it shipped to you, you've voided any privacy.


and don't understand that you leave a paper trail anytime you buy from an online merchant and they need to create an invoice to ship something to do. I don't get it, dannno!! It doesn't matter if you pay with Visa, a checking account, or a Bitcoin...they need to know your ADDRESS before they SHIP to YOU.

wuuuuuuuut??

Besides, every Bitcoin user here who has posted they bought Bitcoin/own Bitcoins have already outted themselves. Now it's a simple IP address game. I stumbled across one post where  you said you put in an order for $77 a few days ago. I wasn't even investigating and I happened to scroll by that.

Ohhhh, but it's soooo private

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## kpitcher

Even the maintainers of the open source client say it's not anonymous. It is semi-anonymous by default and there are ways to make it even more so than usual. In fact there are many simple tools to check for 'taint' between one wallet and another. While all transactions are open to the world there are many ways to hide from a simple back trace. 

The most common way to help increase security is to move money from your wallet into a large pool. This would be like one of the exchanges where you can sell bitcoins. You could then transfer coins back to another wallet breaking the chain. If the exchange information was available forensic accounting could follow the trail but there are exchanges and pools in multiple countries so it makes this more difficult. Users may have multiple wallets so if you want to be paranoid all purchases could be from a single wallet so there is back tracking there either.

But in the end if you buy something that is identifiable such as having something shipped to your house, whatever, it is possible to put a name to a wallet.

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## dannno

> Lol...I'm getting ridiculously redundant. One more time...
> 
> If you buy something with bitcoin, have it shipped TO YOU, then it's pretty obvious who you are, and what your bitcoin ID is..


Did you skip reading my post???

There is no such thing as a "bitcoin ID", there are wallets, most bitcoin users have multiple wallets and often times a single wallet can be used for a single transaction. So you can identify a person's address with a wallet which was used for a single transaction. How does that get tied to anything else? Why do I care if the feds know I bought a goddamm t-shirt and what a single wallet address of mine is if I only used that wallet address for that single transaction?

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## Gaddafi Duck

> Even the maintainers of the open source client say it's not anonymous. It is semi-anonymous by default and there are ways to make it even more so than usual. In fact there are many simple tools to check for 'taint' between one wallet and another. While all transactions are open to the world there are many ways to hide from a simple back trace. 
> 
> The most common way to help increase security is to move money from your wallet into a large pool. This would be like one of the exchanges where you can sell bitcoins. You could then transfer coins back to another wallet breaking the chain. If the exchange information was available forensic accounting could follow the trail but there are exchanges and pools in multiple countries so it makes this more difficult. Users may have multiple wallets so if you want to be paranoid all purchases could be from a single wallet so there is back tracking there either.
> 
> But in the end if you buy something that is identifiable such as having something shipped to your house, whatever, it is possible to put a name to a wallet.


+1 rep for adding useful counterpoints on making Bitcoin more "anonymous" as opposed to just resulting to the "you're a hater" or "you don't get it (and then subsequently not explaining anything)"

Or you could just post about your Bitcoin holdings on your facebook, twitter, chatroom, or message board, and whatever measures you took to keep your super-secret bitcoin transactions private have been voided.

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## dannno

> I don't even understand how you can quote this
> 
> 
> 
> and don't understand that you leave a paper trail anytime you buy from an online merchant and they need to create an invoice to ship something to do. I don't get it, dannno!! It doesn't matter if you pay with Visa, a checking account, or a Bitcoin...they need to know your ADDRESS before they SHIP to YOU.
> 
> wuuuuuuuut??
> 
> Besides, every Bitcoin user here who has posted they bought Bitcoin/own Bitcoins have already outted themselves. Now it's a simple IP address game. I stumbled across one post where  you said you put in an order for $77 a few days ago. I wasn't even investigating and I happened to scroll by that.
> ...


Ya, a few thousand people bought bitcoin at around $77, I guess I really outted myself.

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## dannno

I'd also like to point out that cash these days has RFID in it. They use it to catch drug smugglers, instead of using dogs to sniff for the product they use RFID to track the money back in the other direction.

A simple solution, ironically, is to wrap the cash in tin foil.

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## Gaddafi Duck

> Did you skip reading my post???
> 
> Why do I care if the feds know I bought a goddamm t-shirt and what a single wallet address of mine is if I only used that wallet address for that single transaction?


LoL, and there you have it. "Bitcoin is anonymous" and then you proceed to say "Why do I care if the feds know..."

Game, set, match. So the feds CAN and DO know. And create all the wallets you want...you can make 100 different wallets for 100 different transactions. It's rather time consuming and pointless considering each one of those 100 transactions are all invoiced to a single shipping address. So, Bitcoin isn't private for purchasing physical goods. Considering I don't live in World of Warcraft, I find most things in life to be...better when I can actually use them. I benefit more from an ice cream cone than i do a virtual ice cream cone. Or a house vs. a virtual house, or a tshirt vs. a virtual tshirt. So each time you buy something with a Bitcoin that needs to be delivered, you have to give your address each time. So every transaction is logged, regardless if it's a new Bitcoin wallet or you used a proxy. Last I checked, UPS needs a real address to deliver to.

If anything, creating a new wallet for each unique transaction will raise more red flags. If Amazon ever started accepting Bitcoins (they won't as they're using their own virtual currency), the Feds would notice Bitcoin wallets A to Z, all 26 of them, shipped to one single address. Why would one address need 26 Bitcoin wallets? Whoopsie! Red flag and doors knocked. Laptops confiscated. Likely money launderer.

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## dannno

> LoL, and there you have it. "Bitcoin is anonymous" and then you proceed to say "Why do I care if the feds know..."
> 
> Game, set, match. So the feds CAN and DO know. And create all the wallets you want...you can make 100 different wallets for 100 different transactions. It's rather time consuming and pointless considering each one of those 100 transactions are all invoiced to a single shipping address. So, Bitcoin isn't private for purchasing physical goods. Considering I don't live in World of Warcraft, I find most things in life to be...better when I can actually use them. I benefit more from an ice cream cone than i do a virtual ice cream cone. Or a house vs. a virtual house, or a tshirt vs. a virtual tshirt.


I never said bitcoin is anonymous, but it is a lot more anonymous than anything else that exists. Tools can be used to create more anonymous transactions.

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## PaulConventionWV

> Oh, it only took a couple hours for a 30% swing? I feel all warm inside. That's IPO-type moves. Keep me out, Pets.com.


Why all the animosity?  I mean, any freedom lover can see the benefits of this currency and support it, even if they don't think it will succeed.  Nobody said you had to believe in bitcoin, but being a freedom lover would indicate you want it to succeed, no?

Also, it was more than a couple.  Stop being obtuse.

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## psi2941

> ...then why have so many people come onto an public forum and shouted "I HAVE $500 IN BITCOINS!" while insisting it's completely anonymous...
> 
> Did anyone stop to think that your forum post can be linked back to the computer you use to buy/sell Bitcoins? Talk about putting a gigantic sign on your house saying "I store gold here" but putting it all in a lockbox in your closet.
> 
> FAIL!


and how is this related to economics and sound money?

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## presence

> Lol...I'm getting ridiculously redundant. One more time...
> 
> If you buy something with bitcoin, have it shipped TO YOU, then it's pretty obvious who you are, and what your bitcoin ID is. When the Feds pull up invoice #123 and see dannno bought a tshirt for 0.25 bitcoins, and have your address because it's right there in the invoice, I don't know how you can claim it's all private.
> 
> That's my last attempt at explaining that. Assuming you've purchased something online some point in your life and had it delivered, you should know your address is logged. In fact, if you buy something with bitcoin there's a good chance you're on a marketing list.


Do you understand that not everything one does with bitcoin is anonymous?

However it is possible for me to send my bitcoin to another individual anonymously for goods in hand or labor; but its not simple or a given... you have to work at it like you do to chat on a forum anonymously.   It can be done; it is not the baseline... it requires effort above and beyond the base transaction.

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## PaulConventionWV

> When the post bubble crash happens, bitcoin could go down as much as 70-80 percent the day it happens. 10-20 percent moves in less than a minute can not be ruled out.


He's talking about something that already happened.  I'm not ruling anything out, just correcting him because he's being dishonest.

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## Gaddafi Duck

> Do you understand that not everything one does with bitcoin is anonymous?
> 
> However it is possible for me to send my bitcoin to another individual anonymously for goods in hand or labor; but its not simple or a given... you have to work at it like you do to chat on a forum anonymously.   It can be done; it is not the baseline... it requires effort above and beyond the base transaction.


Sounds like a pain in the ass. 

Meanwhile, I can walk into a store and pay with cash and no one know who I am. Do I need to spend hours fortifying my computer with firewalls and proxies?

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## Gaddafi Duck

> I never said bitcoin is anonymous, but it is a lot more anonymous than anything else that exists. Tools can be used to create more anonymous transactions.





> *3) It's anonymous.* Lol...until you have to report it as capital gains. And what if the US government goes after these wallet programs and requires open disclosure? Companies will always comply with government's demands. They'll readily turn over whatever data they have on you. Then it's just connecting the dots....tracing Account 234kejrklskdfalskdfjwerlk bitcoin code with a bank account. Suddenly Mr. X matches up with John Smith who has a Wells Fargo Student Checking account that he opened 3 years ago. With 20 or so Bitcoin transactions where he/she neglected to report $20,000 in capital gains. Or if you do report the gains to begin with, doesn't that negate the "it's totally anonymous" appeal?





> /thread
> 
> Every single complaint in the OP is filled with brazen innaccuracies and distortions.





> *3) It's anonymous.* Lol...





> /thread
> 
> Every single complaint in the OP is filled with brazen innaccuracies and distortions.





> *3) It's anonymous.* Lol...





> /thread
> 
> *Every single complaint in the OP is filled with brazen innaccuracies and distortions.*





> *I never said bitcoin is anonymous*, but it is a lot more anonymous than anything else that exists. Tools can be used to create more anonymous transactions.


lol...butcha did say every complaint I had was inaccurate. Now you're saying Bitcoin isn't anonymous, which was one of my biggest points I made and had to defend. I win!

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## PaulConventionWV

Keep in mind that the privacy concerns are moot until the government actually says it's illegal to own or use bitcoins.  It's not yet.

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## presence

> Now you're saying Bitcoin isn't anonymous, which was one of my biggest points I made and had to defend. I win!


Cash transactions can be anonymous, or you can buy something at a store where your picture is on camera and you swipe your frequent shopper card.


Bitcoin is no different.

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## Gaddafi Duck

> Keep in mind that the privacy concerns are moot until the government actually says it's illegal to own or use bitcoins.  It's not yet.


LoL? When the government does effectively shutdown Bitcoin, just as it did e-gold, the value crashes. It's only useful to foreigners, which means it's useless to you. Why? Because if you try selling to foreigners, you would be commiting a crime when Bitcoins are outlawed. 

And they will be. Again, the government doesn't need to "pass a law" to shutdown Bitcoin. It's in the purview of money laundering laws. You're essentially waiting for a know-nothing bureaucrat to come out tomorrow to say "Bitcoin users will be scrutinized/prosecuted/etc." and hopefully you're able to be on the computer, accessing a Bitcoin exchange as this news breaks because you'll need to offload faster than the programs do. 

This happened to e-gold...it happened to Liberty Dollar. The fatal flaw with Bitcoin is it called its units bit"coins". They should be called rounds. Now the government can absolutely shut down bitcoin users. Just as they did the Liberty Dollar.

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## dannno

//

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## dannno

> lol...butcha did say every complaint I had was inaccurate. Now you're saying Bitcoin isn't anonymous, which was one of my biggest points I made and had to defend. I win!


No, you constructed a strawman argument in the OP by insinuating that all bitcoin proponents believe that bitcoin is totally anonymous. That's not an accurate statement. That is why I said you are wrong. Bitcoin is neither completely anonymous nor is it totally unanimous. It depends on how it is used. You can go meet somebody in the street and buy bitcoins locally at localbitcoin.com and you don't have to tell the person your name, you just meet up with them, give them cash and they transfer bitcoin into your wallet. Then you could transfer that bitcoin into other wallets and use one wallet for legal shipments going to your house and another for the illegal ones, IF you are using bitcoin for illegal purposes at all. The main point is that the actual bitcoin transfer itself is anonymous so the government would have to work really hard to find out what is happening, whereas banks are generally required to verify identities and are required to report certain types of transactions often times putting the government ahead of the game.

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## Gaddafi Duck

> Cash transactions can be anonymous, or you can buy something at a store where your picture is on camera and you swipe your frequent shopper card.
> 
> 
> Bitcoin is no different.


Knew this would come up. Cameras are a joke..as if anyone can be ID'd if they walked into a store and bought something. There's 300+ million Americans..if you go to a gas station 3 states away, they'll never know who you are. In fact, most people in the city I live in don't know who I am. I laugh anytime someone assumes "ohh there's a camera!" That somehow cops will know within 10 seconds who it is. They don't...no one does...the only time is if you're on camera robbing a place and one of your friends happens to see it on the news, or you go brag to someone of what you did. There's no ninja society out there that knows who you are when they see your pixelated body on a hidden, black and white camera running at 2 frames per second. Plus, cameras aren't everywhere. Many stores don't have any, and the few that do only have a few.. they say tens of billions are stolen each year from stores... if that's the case, we should have astronomical imprisonment levels for theft, but we don't. Because the only ones who get caught are careless and stupid. The ones who get caught with bitcoin can be careless, stupid, but even careful. All the hoops to jump through just to keep your ID private...and how many actually accomplish this?? hahha

Contrasted with bitcoins...every single, EVERY SINGLE thing done online is logged. If you buy from a website, it's logged..for life. With your name, address, phone number, email, even your user ID and passwords. Credit card #...all that good stuff. When I go pay for string cheese with cash, it would take Sherlock Holmes to hunt down exactly who that was.

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## dannno

> LoL? When the government does effectively shutdown Bitcoin, just as it did e-gold, the value crashes.


Actually that is one of the huge drawbacks of using gold to back a digital currency - they can come seize the gold. With bitcoin, there is nothing to seize, it's just a giant computer program running all over the internet.

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## jmdrake

Poor logic in the OP.  Cash is anonymous as in I can buy something with cash without having to declare who I am.  If I announce on a forum "I just won $500 in cash" that doesn't mean my cash is no longer anonymous.

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## ronpaulfollower999

> and how is this related to economics and sound money?


Because Bitcoins deal with economics! 

RPF has become impossible the last few weeks. I can understand if someone who doesn't understand Bitcoins has legitimate concerns, but don't hate on Bitcoins if you have absolutely ZERO understanding of it. You and the few other vocal critics of Bitcoins have no idea what the $#@! you're talking about.

Congratulations.

You win.

I give up.

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## jmdrake

> LoL? When the government does effectively shutdown Bitcoin, just as it did e-gold, the value crashes. It's only useful to foreigners, which means it's useless to you. Why? Because if you try selling to foreigners, you would be commiting a crime when Bitcoins are outlawed.


E-gold worked off of a central server.  The government could shut down the central server.  Child porn is illegal.  Sharing pirated movies over Bittorent is illegal.  Neither have been effectively shut down.  Transferring wealth outside of China without government approval is illegal.  Yet people do that with Bitcoin.  If the Chinese, which currently have one of the most oppressive internet regulatory regimes in the world, can't shut down Bitcoins, how will the U.S. fair with much less experience in this area?




> And they will be. Again, the government doesn't need to "pass a law" to shutdown Bitcoin. It's in the purview of money laundering laws. You're essentially waiting for a know-nothing bureaucrat to come out tomorrow to say "Bitcoin users will be scrutinized/prosecuted/etc." and hopefully you're able to be on the computer, accessing a Bitcoin exchange as this news breaks because you'll need to offload faster than the programs do. 
> 
> This happened to e-gold...it happened to Liberty Dollar. The fatal flaw with Bitcoin is it called its units bit"coins". They should be called rounds. Now the government can absolutely shut down bitcoin users. Just as they did the Liberty Dollar.


The Liberty Dollar also depended on a central clearing house.

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## Gaddafi Duck

> Poor logic in the OP.  Cash is anonymous as in I can buy something with cash without having to declare who I am.  If I announce on a forum "I just won $500 in cash" that doesn't mean my cash is no longer anonymous.


No...but...you admitted you had Bitcoins, which is my point. If the government deems bitcoins illegal under money laundering laws, then you admitting it ownership means the government can come sweep through your computer.

Conversely, cash isn't illegal. Everyone has touched cash in their life..many still use it. But most don't use Bitcoin, and those that do present a threat to the government. Why would you want to pull a tiger's tail to see what happens?

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## jmdrake

> No...but...you admitted you had Bitcoins, which is my point. If the government deems bitcoins illegal under money laundering laws, then you admitting it ownership means the government can come sweep through your computer.
> 
> Conversely, cash isn't illegal. Everyone has touched cash in their life..many still use it. But most don't use Bitcoin, and those that do present a threat to the government. Why would you want to pull a tiger's tail to see what happens?


Cash isn't illegal *today*.  Neither is Bitcoin.  Tomorrow USDs could be declared illegal and we could be on the Amero.  Also the more that use Bitcoin the more difficult it will be for the government to do said sweep.  Again, they haven't been all that effective in shutting down Bittorent movies and other illegal Internet activities.  If we hit a SHTF scenario where the government was "sweeping computers" (and likely sweeping guns as well), there would be time to wipe hard drives if you were that paranoid.  Plus there are multiple options to store your bitcoins in the cloud offshore.  And frankly, if you've admitted you are a Ron Paul supporter you're already on a terrorist watch list anyway.  You've already "pulled the tiger's tail".  Might as well go ahead and finish it Mowgli.

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## Gaddafi Duck

> E-gold worked off of a central server.  The government could shut down the central server.  Child porn is illegal.  Sharing pirated movies over Bittorent is illegal.  Neither have been effectively shut down.  Transferring wealth outside of China without government approval is illegal.  Yet people do that with Bitcoin.  If the Chinese, which currently have one of the most oppressive internet regulatory regimes in the world, can't shut down Bitcoins, how will the U.S. fair with much less experience in this area?
> 
> 
> 
> The Liberty Dollar also depended on a central clearing house.


Whoa, whoa, you're mingling SOOO much irrelevant stuff together in the pot. You're debating technical crap like "egold was stored on a central server/bitcoin is decentralized" Does that matter to my argument? Noooo...see, the problem with Bitcoin fanboys is they cling to the talking points. "It's anonymous/it's decentralized/it's untraceable" and assume those apply as valid counterpoints to anything raised to the contrary of Bitcoin's validity as money.

The government DOES NOT need to shutdown Bitcoin in the same fashion it shutdown e-gold to effectively shutdown Bitcoin. There are alternative ways, no? Assume the government raised the compliance costs for reporting Bitcoin transactions for online merchants. Would Wordpress and LewRockwell still accept Bitcoins? Maybe, maybe not. Let's assume the government just outlawed Bitcoins. Would Wordpress accept them? No. Now, Bitcoins can still "operate" much as they do now...just like Torrents cannot be stopped as their very structure makes it virtually impossible to. Pandora is out of her box with torrents and bitcoins, BUT...torrents are just data. They aren't used as money. Bitcoins are trying to be used as a money substitute. Are they? Let's see...if it's digital, and no merchant will take them in the event the government outlaws Bitcoins, what good are they? About as useful as counterfeit money. Sure, you can use them in the shadow world, but you're at high risk. And you won't be able to use them legitimately with any legitimate company.

So see??? The approach doesn't have to be the government swooping into a warehouse like they did with Liberty Dollar or E-Gold...they can just make Bitcoins illegal, which destroys their function as money. If you can't use Bitcoins to buy things, then what good are they?

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## jmdrake

> Whoa, whoa, you're mingling SOOO much irrelevant stuff together in the pot. You're debating technical crap like "egold was stored on a central server/bitcoin is decentralized" Does that matter to my argument? Noooo...see, the problem with Bitcoin fanboys is they cling to the talking points. "It's anonymous/it's decentralized/it's untraceable" and assume those apply as valid counterpoints to anything raised to the contrary of Bitcoin's validity as money.


If you think the fact that egold was stored on a central server is "irrelevant" to the question of Bitcoin, then you are really to ignorant about Bitcoin to discuss it.  Seriously, decentralization to avoid egold's fate is the whole point.




> The government DOES NOT need to shutdown Bitcoin in the same fashion it shutdown e-gold to effectively shutdown Bitcoin. There are alternative ways, no? Assume the government raised the compliance costs for reporting Bitcoin transactions for online merchants. Would Wordpress and LewRockwell still accept Bitcoins? Maybe, maybe not. Let's assume the government just outlawed Bitcoins. Would Wordpress accept them? No. Now, Bitcoins can still "operate" much as they do now...just like Torrents cannot be stopped as their very structure makes it virtually impossible to. Pandora is out of her box with torrents and bitcoins, BUT...torrents are just data. They aren't used as money. Bitcoins are trying to be used as a money substitute. Are they? Let's see...if it's digital, and no merchant will take them in the event the government outlaws Bitcoins, what good are they? About as useful as counterfeit money. Sure, you can use them in the shadow world, but you're at high risk. And you won't be able to use them legitimately with any legitimate company.


Bitcoin existed before Wordpress and LewRockwell started accepting it.  It will continue to exist afterwards.  And "the government"?  There are multiple governments in the world.  As long as at least one allows trading in Bitcoin, it's convertible.  Would a crackdown on Bitcoins by the U.S. government decrease the value of Bitcoins?  Certainly.  Would that make them valueless?  Certainly not.  Then it would simply become a universal barter currency.

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## Gaddafi Duck

> Cash isn't illegal *today*.  Neither is Bitcoin.  Tomorrow USDs could be declared illegal and we could be on the Amero.  Also the more that use Bitcoin the more difficult it will be for the government to do said sweep.  Again, they haven't been all that effective in shutting down Bittorent movies and other illegal Internet activities.  If we hit a SHTF scenario where the government was "sweeping computers" (and likely sweeping guns as well), there would be time to wipe hard drives if you were that paranoid.  Plus there are multiple options to store your bitcoins in the cloud offshore.  And frankly, if you've admitted you are a Ron Paul supporter you're already on a terrorist watch list anyway.  You've already "pulled the tiger's tail".  Might as well go ahead and finish it Mowgli.


Hahah..so predictable. I knew the "cash isn't illegal...today" argument was coming. Again, you wander off course. 

Ask yourself what's more likely...that the Feds ban cash tomorrow or Bitcoins.

Thanks for disregarding the other 99% of my post where I mentioned security cameras are ridiculously overblown in terms of someone knowing exactly who you are the second you step in the doors. Criminals  get caught because they're stupid, careless, and gloat about it. Not because someone getting paid minimum wage wakes up from their nap while monitoring security cameras, and notices a pixelated white male stole a box of cookies from the supermarket. And magically, out of the 200,000 white males in that city, the minimum wage worker instantly knows who it is.

No, it happens like this: The robber steals and then pays for his gum with a credit card. Or, he tells someone what he did, and the security tape is a "oh, yeah, duh that's him" moment to backup the arrest. Not the other way around.

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## Gaddafi Duck

> If you think the fact that egold was stored on a central server is "irrelevant" to the question of Bitcoin, then you are really to ignorant about Bitcoin to discuss it.  Seriously, decentralization to avoid egold's fate is the whole point.


Wow, seriously? Read the post, dude.

If the Feds ban merchants from accepting Bitcoin, what happens to the value of Bitcoin? Here, I'll quote the 2/3 of the post you DIDN'T read:




> The government DOES NOT need to shutdown Bitcoin in the same fashion it shutdown e-gold to effectively shutdown Bitcoin. There are alternative ways, no? Assume the government raised the compliance costs for reporting Bitcoin transactions for online merchants. Would Wordpress and LewRockwell still accept Bitcoins? Maybe, maybe not. Let's assume the government just outlawed Bitcoins. Would Wordpress accept them? No. Now, Bitcoins can still "operate" much as they do now...just like Torrents cannot be stopped as their very structure makes it virtually impossible to. Pandora is out of her box with torrents and bitcoins, BUT...torrents are just data. They aren't used as money. Bitcoins are trying to be used as a money substitute. Are they? Let's see...if it's digital, and no merchant will take them in the event the government outlaws Bitcoins, what good are they? About as useful as counterfeit money. Sure, you can use them in the shadow world, but you're at high risk. And you won't be able to use them legitimately with any legitimate company.
> 
> So see??? *The approach doesn't have to be the government swooping into a warehouse like they did with Liberty Dollar or E-Gold...they can just make Bitcoins illegal, which destroys their function as money.* If you can't use Bitcoins to buy things, then what good are they?

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## dannno

There are a lot of governments and bitcoin is global. Shutting down bitcoin in one country will be like trying to squeeze the air out of a balloon.

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## jmdrake

> Wow, seriously? Read the post, dude.
> 
> If the Feds ban merchants from accepting Bitcoin, what happens to the value of Bitcoin? Here, I'll quote the 2/3 of the post you DIDN'T read:


Read what I added to my reply "dude".

_Bitcoin existed before Wordpress and LewRockwell started accepting it. It will continue to exist afterwards. And "the government"? There are multiple governments in the world. As long as at least one allows trading in Bitcoin, it's convertible. Would a crackdown on Bitcoins by the U.S. government decrease the value of Bitcoins? Certainly. Would that make them valueless? Certainly not. Then it would simply become a universal barter currency._

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## jmdrake

> Hahah..so predictable. I knew the "cash isn't illegal...today" argument was coming. Again, you wander off course. 
> 
> Ask yourself what's more likely...that the Feds ban cash tomorrow or Bitcoins.


I take it you've never heard of the Amero?  And the most likely scenario is that your cash becomes worthless tomorrow as we head off the Weinmar republic cliff.

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## dannno

Also, if Ron Paul was about to get elected President the NWO would likely have come in and done what they could to stop that from happening, too. Does that mean we shouldn't have tried to elect Ron Paul?

When the government shuts something down, if it is popular, people often wonder why they shut it down. When they educate themselves about why the government shut down bitcoin, they will likely not approve of the banking monopoly structure and we will have more freedom fighters. We may have more people who are not complying, and the more people who don't comply the harder it is for government to enforce compliance.

They might have to shut down the internet to shut down bitcoin. Then wait as all the distracted facebookheads wake up and figure out what the internet is really for.

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## jmdrake

> There are a lot of governments and bitcoin is global. Shutting down bitcoin in one country will be like trying to squeeze the air out of a balloon.


Yeah.  But you're being logical.  Gaddaffi Duck will just say you're "wandering off" and talking about "irrelevant stuff."

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## Gaddafi Duck

> There are a lot of governments and bitcoin is global. Shutting down bitcoin in one country will be like trying to squeeze the air out of a balloon.


Absolutely... Problem is, most, if not all, of the people in this thread live in the United States. Also, if it's considered money laundering in the USA, our allies will comply. So, if you live in Canada or the UK and have bitcoins transfered from an American bitcoin user, then that's illegal even though you don't live in the USA. International treaties.

I sure hope more due diligence is done when you all purchase stocks, bonds, futures, options, real estate, or whatever else you get involved with. As if Bitcoin will continue into perpetuity where the governments just shrug and let people use them without caring. And it's not just the US government...I'm pretty sure Japan...China....the Eurozone...the UK...Canada...Australia...Singapore...all are rather fond of their monopoly of money...so to assume Bitcoins will only be banned by the US and not elsewhere is...wishful thinking.

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## Gaddafi Duck

> There are a lot of governments and bitcoin is global. Shutting down bitcoin in one country will be like trying to squeeze the air out of a balloon.


Absolutely... Problem is, most, if not all, of the people in this thread live in the United States. Also, if it's considered money laundering in the USA, our allies will comply. So, if you live in Canada or the UK and have bitcoins transfered from an American bitcoin user, then that's illegal even though you don't live in the USA. International treaties.

I sure hope more due diligence is done when you all purchase stocks, bonds, futures, options, real estate, or whatever else you get involved with. As if Bitcoin will continue into perpetuity where the governments just shrug and let people use them without caring. And it's not just the US government...I'm pretty sure Japan...China....the Eurozone...the UK...Canada...Australia...Singapore...all are rather fond of their monopoly of money...so to assume Bitcoins will only be banned by the US and not elsewhere is...wishful thinking.

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## Gaddafi Duck

> Read what I added to my reply "dude".
> 
> _Bitcoin existed before Wordpress and LewRockwell started accepting it. It will continue to exist afterwards. And "the government"? There are multiple governments in the world. As long as at least one allows trading in Bitcoin, it's convertible. Would a crackdown on Bitcoins by the U.S. government decrease the value of Bitcoins? Certainly. Would that make them valueless? Certainly not. Then it would simply become a universal barter currency._


So if Angola is the only country that hasn't made it illegal to transact with Bitcoin, you mean it'll still be viable to use? Hmm... okay! Chuck e Cheese redeems their tickets and tokens. I'll try pitching a Chuck E Cheese token the next time I go out on a date to an Italian Restaurant. I'll say "Hey, they're full convertible at the arcade"

And my point isn't necessarily that Bitcoin will be "valueless". But what good are Bitcoins to me if they crashed from $130 to be only worth $0.05 like they were when they started? About as useful as a penny stock broker's advice.

And why would they become a "universal barter currency"? Considering money laundering laws extend internationally, enlighten me on how you're going to take on world t ravels and redeem your precious Bitcoins in the great colony of Western Sahara? Or through the sands of Iran? Do tell..I'm interested to year how much fun you'll be having in 3rd world countries with Bitcoins, when internet access is a luxury there.

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## jmdrake

> So if Angola is the only country that hasn't made it illegal to transact with Bitcoin, you mean it'll still be viable to use?


 I take it you've never heard of Switzerland or the Cayman Islands or the Bahamas?  There are a lot of countries who have developed entire industries out of not complying with U.S. financial regulators.

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## Gaddafi Duck

> Also, if Ron Paul was about to get elected President the NWO would likely have come in and done what they could to stop that from happening, too. Does that mean we shouldn't have tried to elect Ron Paul?
> 
> When the government shuts something down, if it is popular, people often wonder why they shut it down. When they educate themselves about why the government shut down bitcoin, they will likely not approve of the banking monopoly structure and we will have more freedom fighters. We may have more people who are not complying, and the more people who don't comply the harder it is for government to enforce compliance.
> 
> They might have to shut down the internet to shut down bitcoin. Then wait as all the distracted facebookheads wake up and figure out what the internet is really for.


My oh my. Money vs. Ron Paul's libertarian message being spread globally. Like comparing apples to wheat bread.

Ron Paul was worth promoting. Why? Regardless of him being elected, his message spread. 

Bitcoins, on the other hand, have value derived SOLELY from "confidence". When people find out that Bitcoins are getting banned for online merchants, they will tank. When a glitch occurs, the value will tank. When someone gets hacked and loses their bitcoin wallet, they will tank. However...Ron Paul's message, unlike Bitcoins as they're entirely separate food groups, has to do with reason and how we live our lives. Bitcoin is entirely "zomg is it going to the moon?"

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## Gaddafi Duck

> Also, if Ron Paul was about to get elected President the NWO would likely have come in and done what they could to stop that from happening, too. Does that mean we shouldn't have tried to elect Ron Paul?
> 
> When the government shuts something down, if it is popular, people often wonder why they shut it down. When they educate themselves about why the government shut down bitcoin, they will likely not approve of the banking monopoly structure and we will have more freedom fighters. We may have more people who are not complying, and the more people who don't comply the harder it is for government to enforce compliance.
> 
> They might have to shut down the internet to shut down bitcoin. Then wait as all the distracted facebookheads wake up and figure out what the internet is really for.


My oh my. Money vs. Ron Paul's libertarian message being spread globally. Like comparing apples to wheat bread.

Ron Paul was worth promoting. Why? Regardless of him being elected, his message spread. 

Bitcoins, on the other hand, have value derived SOLELY from "confidence". When people find out that Bitcoins are getting banned for online merchants, they will tank. When a glitch occurs, the value will tank. When someone gets hacked and loses their bitcoin wallet, they will tank. However...Ron Paul's message, unlike Bitcoins as they're entirely separate food groups, has to do with reason and how we live our lives. Bitcoin is entirely "zomg is it going to the moon?"

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## Gaddafi Duck

> I take it you've never heard of Switzerland or the Cayman Islands or the Bahamas?  There are a lot of countries who have developed entire industries out of not complying with U.S. financial regulators.


Oh, Switzerland? You mean the guys that just turned over tens of thousands of U.S. depositor's information to the IRS? That Switzerland? 

The Cayman Islands...wasn't e-gold headquartered in the Caribbean as well? Didn't stop us!

Bahamas? Seriously? Hardly a bastion for offshore banking. Maybe literally offshore, but not with the security.

Where do you get your stuff? What cue cards are you reading off of? None of these points are accurate.

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## jmdrake

> Oh, Switzerland? You mean the guys that just turned over tens of thousands of U.S. depositor's information to the IRS? That Switzerland?


One time event.




> The Cayman Islands...wasn't e-gold headquartered in the Caribbean as well? Didn't stop us!


Don't be stupid.  E-gold had a centralized server.  There was someone to go after.




> Bahamas? Seriously? Hardly a bastion for offshore banking. Maybe literally offshore, but not with the security.


You seriously are clueless.




> Where do you get your stuff? What cue cards are you reading off of? None of these points are accurate.


Keep lying to yourself and pretending you know everything.  You may eventually believe it.

http://www.trustmakers.com/Offshore-...nformation.php

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## jmdrake

And your original point is still stupid.  Someone announcing they have bitcoins does not make them "non anonymous."

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## Gaddafi Duck

Anyway, Iran is embargoed, no? What happened when America freezes assets of people? That stretches far and wide. Good luck getting your money out of any bank virtually anywhere when the USA freezes your ass.

I do get a tickle out of you bringing up offshoring your bank account so you can transfer bitcoins back and forth. Lmao...as if you have the means to do that. Don't kid yourself...you don't have a foreign bank account. Your arguments for "gee, there are plenty of foreign banks that will keep my transactions under wraps!" are comical. The most offshore you've ever  had was probably an ING (a Dutch bank) Direct checking account, which anyone could get..and that's the USA branch. You don't have an account in the Cayman Islands...you don't have banking friends in Switzerland...you're a nobody, just like me, just like everyone else. You're sounding like an orphan who notices a kid your age dressed up in tailored suit, walking up to his dad's BMW. "Geee, if that were me!!"

It's not you. And even if everything you said came true, even if Switzerland protected the Bitcoin kiddies, you wouldn't benefit. Because you don't have a Swiss account, and you never will.

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## Gaddafi Duck

> One time event.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be stupid.  E-gold had a centralized server.  There was someone to go after.
> 
> 
> 
> You seriously are clueless.
> ...


hahahahah--HiLaRiOuS. A one time event that Switzerland violated their privacy laws and turned over their customers' info to the US government! Whoopsie! It'll only happen once! Just like Cyprus, right?

So, everyone gets a mulligan? "AHhhhh Switzerland messed up once...ahh well, second chance!" hahhahah you're a funny dude. I'm done arguing. Life is calling.

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## jmdrake

> Anyway, Iran is embargoed, no? What happened when America freezes assets of people? That stretches far and wide. Good luck getting your money out of any bank virtually anywhere when the USA freezes your ass.


Oh goodness Gaddaffy Duck!  You bounce around like a rubber ball at talk about others wandering off on irrelevant points?  In fact *you just made the case FOR Bitcoins*!  It's not about "storing assets in a bank."  And people don't only use banks to store assets.  They also use them to transfer funds.  Take your nightmare scenario where the feds crackdown on Bitcoins.  If the U.S. government follows its current pattern regarding offshore banks it may *ask* other countries to crack down on Bitcoins, but it won't require that.  So, you could transfer Bitcoins to some buddy in country X and then he could send you back cash or goods.

Now compare that to Julian Assange in the scenario that you stupidly want everyone to stay in.  Nobody could send or receive Assange money because the government put the squeeze on all of his accounts.  Your "best case scenario" is the government's wet dream.  Everyone totally dependent on a money tap where the government can easily single you out and put on the squeeze.  Bitcoin offers a way around the Julian Assange scenario.  Is it perfect?  No.  Is it better than anything you've offered?  Hell yes.  Should people have all of their assets in Bitcoins?  Of course not.  Are you better off if you have some?  Most likely.

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## jmdrake

> hahahahah--HiLaRiOuS. A one time event that Switzerland violated their privacy laws and turned over their customers' info to the US government! Whoopsie! It'll only happen once! Just like Cyprus, right?
> 
> So, everyone gets a mulligan? "AHhhhh Switzerland messed up once...ahh well, second chance!" hahhahah you're a funny dude. I'm done arguing. Life is calling.


Trollin trollin trollin....keep those posts a flowin'...act like you be knowin....troll on.....

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## PaulConventionWV

> No...but...you admitted you had Bitcoins, which is my point. If the government deems bitcoins illegal under money laundering laws, then you admitting it ownership means the government can come sweep through your computer.
> 
> Conversely, cash isn't illegal. Everyone has touched cash in their life..many still use it. But most don't use Bitcoin, and those that do present a threat to the government. Why would you want to pull a tiger's tail to see what happens?


Bitcoin isn't illegal either.  When it is, I'll make sure I don't announce it.

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## PaulConventionWV

> No...but...you admitted you had Bitcoins, which is my point. If the government deems bitcoins illegal under money laundering laws, then you admitting it ownership means the government can come sweep through your computer.
> 
> Conversely, cash isn't illegal. Everyone has touched cash in their life..many still use it. But most don't use Bitcoin, and those that do present a threat to the government. Why would you want to pull a tiger's tail to see what happens?


This is a war.  Bad things are probably going to happen, but I am willing to take that risk and see how far the Bitcoin can take us in the fight against central economic control.  I don't see a SHFT scenario happening in the near future where the government starts arresting people for owning bitcoins and guns, so I don't feel threatened by them yet.  All at the same time, however, bitcoin is presenting a plethora of new challenges for law enforcement and central economic control.  We are getting a leg up because bitcoin is taking this fight further every day and there's nothing government can do right away to stop it.  The clock is ticking and economic freedom lies in the balance.  Bitcoin isn't just a currency, it's a weapon.

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## kpitcher

NPR / Diane Rehm had Richard Rahn and other economists on not long ago talking about tax havens. They did discuss the Caribbean banks and how people on a cruise ship can no longer open an account and get a credit card like they used to. Was an interesting show.

http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/20...nal-tax-havens

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## PaulConventionWV

> So if Angola is the only country that hasn't made it illegal to transact with Bitcoin, you mean it'll still be viable to use? Hmm... okay! Chuck e Cheese redeems their tickets and tokens. I'll try pitching a Chuck E Cheese token the next time I go out on a date to an Italian Restaurant. I'll say "Hey, they're full convertible at the arcade"
> 
> And my point isn't necessarily that Bitcoin will be "valueless". But what good are Bitcoins to me if they crashed from $130 to be only worth $0.05 like they were when they started? About as useful as a penny stock broker's advice.
> 
> And why would they become a "universal barter currency"? Considering money laundering laws extend internationally, enlighten me on how you're going to take on world t ravels and redeem your precious Bitcoins in the great colony of Western Sahara? Or through the sands of Iran? Do tell..I'm interested to year how much fun you'll be having in 3rd world countries with Bitcoins, when internet access is a luxury there.


Remember... you're dealing in the hypothetical.  You have no idea when or if the bitcoin will be made illegal by anyone.  It would be quite an eye-opener if they were to do that.

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## PaulConventionWV

> hahahahah--HiLaRiOuS. A one time event that Switzerland violated their privacy laws and turned over their customers' info to the US government! Whoopsie! It'll only happen once! Just like Cyprus, right?
> 
> So, everyone gets a mulligan? "AHhhhh Switzerland messed up once...ahh well, second chance!" hahhahah you're a funny dude. I'm done arguing. Life is calling.


Yes, please do go and get a life.  We have no need for your infectious idiocy around here.

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## ninepointfive

Bitcoins will provide a source of a stable currency moreso than the fed note or euro. give it enough time, and it will happen. more retailers will start using bitcoin. especially when the major card companies charge high fees and percentages.

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## amy31416

Who here is shouting to the mountaintops about how many bitcoins they own?

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## Jordan

It's practically anonymous, as in no one with tiny amounts of money is going to get exposed. That said, anyone with background in statistics could figure out bitcoin trails pretty quickly. A little internet data mining and some statistical analysis and BOOM, anonymity gone. You'd have to do something worthy of that kind of effort, though.

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## bitcointrader

You buy bitcoins in Australia anonymously with https://www.bitcointrader.com.au

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