# Start Here > Guest Forum >  Why do other countries with "socialized medicine" have better health care?

## 56ktarget

Maybe its because single payer health care is better than the insurance cartel we have currently?

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## Danke

[mod delete]

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## 56ktarget

How about actually writing a coherent response instead of accusing people of being trolls.

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## Danke

> How about actually writing a coherent response instead of accusing people of being trolls.


Because a FNG would observe and learn before commenting.  You could at least do a search as topics you are bringing up tonight in rapid succession have been debated here ad nauseum. (hmm...)  So just bump some of those threads with your input, after reading them of course.

No, you won't do that, 'cause you are just a $#@!ing troll.

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## Neil Desmond

What makes you think that other countries with "socialized medicine" have better health care?  How are you arriving at this claim or conclusion?

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## 56ktarget

Thats funny, I actually did and all I see are threads warning about death panels and how a massive government conspiracy are making all those numbers up. If you can't issue a rational response, just ignore the thread and move on.

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## 56ktarget

> What makes you think that other countries with "socialized medicine" have better health care?  How are you arriving at this claim or conclusion?


It is well documented that America has the 37th best health care system in the world.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0910064
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

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## Neil Desmond

> It is well documented that America has the 37th best health care system in the world.
> http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0910064
> http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html


Oh - I see what you're doing, now; you're equating redistribution of wealth with health care quality.

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## silverhandorder

> Oh - I see what you're doing, now; you're equating redistribution of wealth with health care quality.


This.

Statistics that put other countries ahead tend to positively index the mere fact that socialized healthcare exists.

Also US system is highly socialized already. Elderly, children and poor qualify for free healthcare. Only young working professionals get screwed.

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## KCIndy

> How about actually writing a coherent response instead of accusing people of being trolls.


Dude.  Seriously.

You're brand new.  You just register.  You don't bother to introduce yourself.  Then you immediately toss out the following threads:


*Why did the economy boom during the 1950's when the top tax rate was 91%?

America has the highest gun violence in the world

Do Libertarians support the Citizens United decision?

Why do other countries with "socialized medicine" have better health care?

Obama is not a liberal

Libertarian policies were already tried... It was called the Articles of Confederation*


It's clear you understand that RPF is a libertarian/anarchist/voluntaryist minded forum.  It's equally clear you have an immense dislike for all things libertarian.  

If you are here to have a civil exchange, share a few ideas and promote your own statist viewpoint, and if you want to do it in earnest and really be a part of this community, you're off to a very bad start.

Given the actions I listed above, why should we NOT consider you to be a troll?

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## Natural Citizen

> Thats funny, I actually did and all I see are threads warning about death panels and how a massive government conspiracy are making all those numbers up. If you can't issue a rational response, just ignore the thread and move on.


It took me a few years to go through all of the discussion here before I ever even registered as a member. I've never really been a big fan of existing members (of any public platform) attacking new members (especially with the auto troll label) who register just because I think that the forum serves a unique means for others to synergize, even if disagreement exists. But, as others have mentioned, there is a wealth of discussion here. Nobody really wants to start from scratch. Especally when you come in cock strong...bull of the woods kind of thing. Whatever though. Consider my advice.

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> How about actually writing a coherent response instead of accusing people of being trolls.


I don't have a problem with trolls, but at least be interesting.  Do I go over to DU and talk about how liberalism has created more pansy men?  No, I don't do that.  Do I talk about how the liberal wuss would let his wife get raped in his own home because the big, black gun is so scary?  No again. You're welcome. 

You started a thread about healthcare?!  Guns and homicide?!!  Give me a break.  Go back to the drawing board and try again.  At least put the words "white man" and "racist" in the same paragraph.  Your post doesn't even have to be remotely true.  Maybe something along the lines of how liberal women have bigger breasts.  Who knows?  Maybe that is true.  Go do some research and find out.  Anyway, post $#@! like that.  Be sure to post some good pictures.  

Now get your government-support-me ass in gear, and come back when you're more interesting.

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## juleswin

> Maybe its because single payer health care is better than the insurance cartel we have currently?


That is very possible that you are right. It is very possible that a quasi free market system where the government fund over 60% of the healthcare system and regulates to death the other 40% is going to less efficient that a system where the govt via tax payers funds 99.9% of it. But still, it would be trading one tyrant for another. 

Just imagine a system where the govt seizes the children of the country and sends them to a govt approved boarding school. Do you think that system would not produce on average better behaved and educated children than we have right now in this quasi free market system? if you agree with me, then does it follow that we should let the govt en mass seize of the children and fix the nations problem with under educated and bad behaved children?

Freedom to fail and succeed counts for something. This forum is not called liberty tree for nothing, people here will never accept the idea of an immoral mean justifying the ends.

Note: I am totally in favor of allowing people who want this govt system the right to pool together and pay some extra taxes to govt so it can provide this socialized medicine for them.

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## Ronin Truth

Why do so many folks from socialized medicine countries come to the USA for their health care? 

An answer: no rationing and the lines and waiting time to be seen is shorter. (This unfortunately, will probably change and be lost under Obamacare.)

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## VIDEODROME

Honestly, I can imagine some socialized clinics can treat a lot of small things.  Because it's free, people go in there and the clinic catches things like Hypertension.  You can prevent small health issues from becoming serious through neglect.  Or have less people that stay home diagnosing themselves on WebMD or something.  

However, if you are hit by a car or get cancer, I can imagine that American medicine can put you back together better.  I think catastrophic medical conditions are where private medicine does the job better even though it's extremely expensive.  Or may be the difference between whether or not a limb is saved or amputated.

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## juleswin

> Why do so many folks from socialized medicine countries come to the USA for their health care? 
> 
> An answer: no rationing and the lines and waiting time to be seen is shorter. (This unfortunately, will probably change and be lost under Obamacare.)


But that number doesn't compare to the number of Americans going to India, East Asia and south American for treatment. Socialized medicine has greater access on Average and the US system also has access but prices is a bigger hindrance to obtaining that access

The truth is both systems are flawed, govt is into every aspect of the US healthcare system and you cannot expect anything good to come out of it. Depending on your situation socialized medicine can offer a better option that the quasi free market system we have in the US.

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## Ronin Truth

> But that number doesn't compare to the number of Americans going to India, East Asia and south American for treatment. Socialized medicine has greater access on Average and the US system also has access but prices is a bigger hindrance to obtaining that access
> 
> The truth is both systems are flawed, govt is into every aspect of the US healthcare system and you cannot expect anything good to come out of it. Depending on your situation socialized medicine can offer a better option that the quasi free market system we have in the US.


 US health care costs started going ballistic with the passage of Medicare in the 60s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(United_States)

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## jmdrake

So you honestly believe that *Turkey* has better healthcare than Switzerland?  Because the way you are apparently interpreting that graph.........

Hey, who believes that Mexico has better healthcare than Sweden?  And if Mexican healthcare is so good, why are so many Mexicans trying to come to America?

The Slovak Republic has better healthcare than the UK, Spain and Denmark?

Or is % of GDP spent on healthcare and absolutely stupid way to rate how good healthcare is?




> Maybe its because single payer health care is better than the insurance cartel we have currently?

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## jmdrake

> But that number doesn't compare to the number of Americans going to India, East Asia and south American for treatment. Socialized medicine has greater access on Average and the US system also has access but prices is a bigger hindrance to obtaining that access
> 
> The truth is both systems are flawed, govt is into every aspect of the US healthcare system and you cannot expect anything good to come out of it. Depending on your situation socialized medicine can offer a better option that the quasi free market system we have in the US.


How many Americans are going to Mexico for healthcare?  According to the OP graph, healthcare in Mexico must be much better.  And India isn't even on the OP graph.  Are they better or worse?  Can't say from the graph.

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## juleswin

> How many Americans are going to Mexico for healthcare?  According to the OP graph, healthcare in Mexico must be much better.  And India isn't even on the OP graph.  Are they better or worse?  Can't say from the graph.


The graph is for Healthcare spending as % of GDP. It saying nothing about the quality or access of healthcare in X country. So a country at the top of the list can still have a better healthcare system than one on top of that list.

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## jmdrake

> The graph is for Healthcare spending as % of GDP. *It saying nothing about the quality or access of healthcare in X country.* So a country at the top of the list can still have a better healthcare system than one on top of that list.


Ummm...yeah.  *That's my point!*  So why even pretend this troll actually said anything of use?  And for the record, I have heard Obamacare supporters use the stupid "America spends more on healthcare than anyone else" argument as if it actually means something.  It doesn't.

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## VIDEODROME

I thought most Americans where going to the border for cheaper drugs.

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## Todd

> I don't have a problem with trolls, but at least be interesting.  Do I go over to DU and talk about how liberalism has created more pansy men?  .


Nope...cause you'd be banned in 30 seconds.

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## angelatc

> But that number doesn't compare to the number of Americans going to India, East Asia and south American for treatment..


I can only offer an anecdote, but one of my customers was an Indian.  He got deathly sick while visiting India, and his wife spent upwards of  6 figures to hire an air ambulance to get him back here.

They both grew up and went to school in India.  Still had family there, he owned a couple of farms and did massive amounts of charity work there.  They were not strangers in a strange land.

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> Nope...cause you'd be banned in 30 seconds.


That figures.  The DU members probably run away, flailing their arms in panic.  "Help, somebody is attacking my argument!  Please call 911!!!"

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## eduardo89

> I can only offer an anecdote, but one of my customers was an Indian.  He got deathly sick while visiting India, and his wife spent *upwards of 3 figures* to hire an air ambulance to get him back here.
> 
> They both grew up and went to school in India.  Still had family there, he owned a couple of farms and did massive amounts of charity work there.  They were not strangers in a strange land.


I'd expect an air ambulance from Inda to the US to cost more than $100.

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## Zippyjuan

Depends on who you are.  If you have resources and good insurance, you get access to the best coverage in the world.  If you lack resources or insurance, you can get poor care.

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## The economist

> Anytime I see this rear its head I remember looking at charts. The high cost of healthcare looks directly attributed to government involvement. (And I agree that gluttonous bureaucracy is the first thing that needs some stapling... )
> 
> Most people connect the HMO act of 1973 with the skyrocketing of costs. We see that in this 100 year chart:
> 
> 
> 
> But the visual story goes back further, with precipitous rises from earlier government interventions
> 
> Roosevelt's irksome Revenue Act of 1942 opened Pandora's Box and incubated the quasi public monstrosity we see today. It gave tax incentives to businesses for Healthcare "benefits", it did not include any such incentives to individuals... So lets look at a smaller section of that chart from that era - 1910 to 1960
> ...


 DADADADADA

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## juleswin

> Nope...cause you'd be banned in 30 seconds.


Yup, they will ban you and then come around to dance on your grave after you cannot defend yourself. They will also congratulate themselves for getting rid of a voice of decent. You cannot question or even correct their outright lies without getting the boot.

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## juleswin

> Depends on who you are.  If you have resources and good insurance, you get access to the best coverage in the world.  If you lack resources or insurance, you can get poor care.


Yup, also the system we have in the US is very good for people with diseases and illness that is very rare and is very expensive and unprofitable to research and treat. The govt seizing and funding healthcare with massive amounts of tax payers money has created a high quality not seen anywhere in the world.

Would the free market choose to invest their limited resources this way if given the chance? nobody can tell. So depending on your condition, socialized medicine like they have in Europe can be a much better system than what we have in the states.

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## enoch150

> DADADADADA


I came across this article a while back which discussed the costs of health care for poor people 80+ years ago and why things began to change. Not everyone likes low prices.

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## azxd

When enough doctors go off the grid, I'll gladly trade with them.

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## James Madison

Socialized medicine appears successful in countries like Norway and Sweden for several reasons: the people are well educated, there aren't that many of them, and most are fairly health conscious -- it doesn't hurt that the extreme climate breeds a collectivist society. The U.S. shares none of these traits -- unhealthy, overweight, lazy, entitled slobs.

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## angelatc

> I'd expect an air ambulance from Inda to the US to cost more than $100.


 - I meant 6.  TY!

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## Zippyjuan

Competition adds to our healthcare costs- at least competition among insurance companies.  40% of our healthcare costs go to overhead.  That is filing and handling paperwork and managing things.  We have hundreds of insurance companies with thousands of different policies which cover (or don't cover) different things at different rates. Each case requires a different form sent with different supporting documents to different places to try to collect payment.  Single payer Canada by comparison averages only 17% of healthcare costs going to overhead.  That is because every similar case uses the same form sent to the same place.

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## enoch150

> Competition adds to our healthcare costs- at least competition among insurance companies.  40% of our healthcare costs go to overhead.  That is filing and handling paperwork and managing things.  We have hundreds of insurance companies with thousands of different policies which cover (or don't cover) different things at different rates. Each case requires a different form sent with different supporting documents to different places to try to collect payment.  Single payer Canada by comparison averages only 17% of healthcare costs going to overhead.  That is because every similar case uses the same form sent to the same place.


What are you talking about? Most areas are suffering from a distinct lack of competition. Insurance companies have a federal anti-trust exemption as long as the states regulate the insurance market, which they all do. The insurance companies consolidated over time and, because of high regulatory compliance costs as a barrier to entry, very limited new competition entered the scene. According to the American Medical Association report on the industry in 2012, a “significant absence of health insurer competition” is present in 68% of the 385 metropolitan areas examined. The worst case was Alabama, where a single insurer accounted for 88% of the health care market.

It's the severe lack of competition caused by government that has contributed to exorbitant costs.

Also, you and OP should note that in 2011 the US actually had the 4th most expensive health care per capita, according to the World Bank. The more expensive countries:

Luxembourg, which has a health care tax which pays for basic care for all citizens and mandatory insurance coverage for dependents
Norway, which has universal health care
Switzerland, which has universal health care

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/...isplay=default

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## 56ktarget

> What are you talking about? Most areas are suffering from a distinct lack of competition. Insurance companies have a federal anti-trust exemption as long as the states regulate the insurance market, which they all do. The insurance companies consolidated over time and, because of high regulatory compliance costs as a barrier to entry, very limited new competition entered the scene. According to the American Medical Association report on the industry in 2012, a “significant absence of health insurer competition” is present in 68% of the 385 metropolitan areas examined. The worst case was Alabama, where a single insurer accounted for 88% of the health care market.
> 
> It's the severe lack of competition caused by government that has contributed to exorbitant costs.
> 
> Also, you and OP should note that in 2011 the US actually had the 4th most expensive health care per capita, according to the World Bank. The more expensive countries:
> 
> Luxembourg, which has a health care tax which pays for basic care for all citizens and mandatory insurance coverage for dependents
> Norway, which has universal health care
> Switzerland, which has universal health care
> ...


I actually agree with this. Which is why we needed a strong public option to counter the insurance companies ripping off customers.

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## 56ktarget

> Dude.  Seriously.
> 
> You're brand new.  You just register.  You don't bother to introduce yourself.  Then you immediately toss out the following threads:
> 
> 
> *Why did the economy boom during the 1950's when the top tax rate was 91%?
> 
> America has the highest gun violence in the world
> 
> ...


I understand that people here don't want anyone to burst their bubble. Even so, how exactly have I been uncivil or not earnest? The only disrespect I see is on the part of this community who accuses anybody that doesn't agree with their viewpoint to be a troll.





> Why do so many folks from socialized medicine countries come to the USA for their health care? 
> 
> An answer: no rationing and the lines and waiting time to be seen is shorter. (This unfortunately, will probably change and be lost under Obamacare.)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical...#United_States

60,000-85,000 people coming to U.S. for treatment, 750,000 of our citizens leaving to other countries. Those are appalling numbers. 




> That figures.  The DU members probably run away, flailing their arms in panic.  "Help, somebody is attacking my argument!  Please call 911!!!"


I thought thats what I just witnessed in this thread.

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## juleswin

> I understand that people here don't want anyone to burst their bubble. Even so, how exactly have I been uncivil or not earnest? The only disrespect I see is on the part of this community who accuses anybody that doesn't agree with their viewpoint to be a troll.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical...#United_States
> 
> 60,000-85,000 people coming to U.S. for treatment, 750,000 of our citizens leaving to other countries. Those are appalling numbers. 
> 
> ...


People will call you out as a troll cos its seems like you are trying to misrepresent your self to the forum. There is no way in the world you used to be a Ron Paul supporter. On second though, maybe you were one of those "I support weed legalization so I support Ron". I will concede one point to you, it is very possible that a socialized system will be better than what we have right now, but even it is scientifically proven that is will produce a better outcome, most people on this side would not support it.

If a system denies people the ability to choose, it is govt controlled and no way of opting out then what ever ends that comes out of it will be rejected. Stealing, pointing guns at people as a means to an end will always be something people on this forum will not accept. Also the system we have right now is nothing close to the ideal system anyone here is advocating for. 

So personally, I am just as against the system we have now as I am for a completely socialized Universal healthcare system.

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> I understand that people here don't want anyone to burst their bubble. Even so, how exactly have I been uncivil or not earnest?.  The only disrespect I see is on the part of this community who accuses anybody that doesn't agree with their viewpoint to be a troll.


You have actually shown the opposite of earnestness.  You said that "I'm interested in learning more about the Libertarian cause in general,..."  I see very few, in any, posts indicating your willingness to learn.  

If you want to debate, then debate.  No big deal.  Your line is baloney--so yeah--that makes you a troll.








> I thought thats what I just witnessed in this thread.


If you had witnessed that, then you would have been banned a long time ago.  If I posted your half dozen threads in DU, then I'd be banned in no time.  Would you like to bet on that and make the wager very interesting?

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> I actually agree with this. Which is why we needed a strong public to counter the insurance companies ripping off customers.


Do you have insurance?

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## Dr. Dog

By spending more on health care, the US is actually subsidizing the health care of other countries with all the medical innovations coming from the US.

The only really problem with US health care is lack of coverage, hopefully Obamacare fixes that.

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## Neil Desmond

> By spending more on health care, the US is actually subsidizing the health care of other countries with all the medical innovations coming from the US.
> 
> The only really problem with US health care is lack of coverage, hopefully Obamacare fixes that.


I wonder if it is because the US is "actually subsidizing the health care of other countries with all the medical innovations coming from the US" that it seems like socialized medicine is working out ok in some of those other countries.  What country will serve in the same manner as benefactor for a single payer system here in the US, if the US decides to take such a route as a result of a debacle with Obamacare?

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## enoch150

> I actually agree with this. Which is why we needed a strong public option to counter the insurance companies ripping off customers.


I don't think that will fix the outrageous cost problem, but I don't have any particular objection to a public option, as long as its voluntary and is entirely self funded by those who subscribe to it (or donations), rather than backstopped by taxpayers who want nothing to do with it. It's mandate in Obamacare that I object to, along with the taxes on things like medical equipment and the taxpayer bailout guarantees.

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## StoryTimeWithJesus

Dr Dog makes a good point - the US funds more medical research than the 30+ countries with higher average life expectancy than the US combined. 

However, the biggest drivers of higher costs here are tax incentives to get people to buy health insurance through their employers, which limits people's choices and encourages inefficiency because insurers of employer/group plans get virtual monopoly status over consumers at the employers they cover, and medicare. The US spends about the same amount on the health care of people age 18-65 as most European countries, but twice as much on people age 65-75 and three times as much on people age 75+ as Europe because in Europe, if you're 90 and have cancer, they let you die. Here, we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars of younger generations' money (not to mention the time and effort of doctors and nurses, more hospital space, and a variety of other costs) to keep 90 year olds with cancer alive for 6 more months before they die anyway. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMBpn43l-Us

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## Anti Federalist

> So you honestly believe that *Turkey* has better healthcare than Switzerland?  Because the way you are apparently interpreting that graph.........
> 
> Hey, who believes that Mexico has better healthcare than Sweden?  And if Mexican healthcare is so good, why are so many Mexicans trying to come to America?
> 
> The Slovak Republic has better healthcare than the UK, Spain and Denmark?
> 
> *Or is % of GDP spent on healthcare and absolutely stupid way to rate how good healthcare is?*


And BOOM goes the dynamite.

/thread

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