# Think Tank > U.S. Constitution >  Serious Slave Reparations Discussion Only

## RonPaulNewbee

Trying to think what can be done to further the cause of the constitutional society that Ron has popularized, I realized we need to attack on some new fronts. For many years I did not believe in reparations (you know what I'm talking about) because of the Libertarian principle that the government should not take one cent from me without either my willingness or by threat of gunpoint.

Well, 700 Billion made me change my mind. We are slaves. We are wage slaves (some might argue "the government's chattel slaves"). Our only out is to feign illness and get on welfare. Well, I'm tired of this $#@!! These games: are we sovereign? Are we Citizens? Enough!

While I am an old white guy, I have come to believe that reparations are in order. I know, I know, I know ... there is no way to identify slave families and no way to identify slave-holder families. That's not the point. We Americans (of all colors, North and South) have benefited from slavery and the descendants of slavery have been slighted. While I'm Irish, it is possible that my ancestors were subjected to slavery but was the Black race that was specifically subjected to disenfranchisement in the Constitution for the United States of America.

The 14th Amendment (which was never legally ratified) created a new class of citizen and removed sovereignty from the vernacular of citizen rights. This was done to replace the Black slave class that had been eliminated by the 13 Amendment. As Whites, we should be on the side of our former Black slaves in solidarity! The government has put us on equal ground, as slaves, not raised up anybody!

Here's my proposal, and it is one I hope Ron Paul (and Chuck Baldwin) will take a look at as a creative solution differing from an absolutist stand:

The 14th Amendment has to go. Or it needs to be rewritten to retain equal rights, due process, all the good things in it. But take away the divisive language aimed at punishing the Confederates.It needs to give Natural Born Citizenship to all free men and women here and ... well I believe Ron Paul has a solution to this one and he's much better qualified to address it.The point is the Constitution needs one class of People, first-class Citizens under the jurisdiction of Article 3. State's rights returned. Right of Secession explicitly recognized. Return of Common Law, so resolution of controversies can have flexibility.Abolish the IRS, Federal Reserve, and Board of Education with the exception that all forms of Law are taught from the 1st Grade so that the People can protect themselves from another arising Leviathan government.
I've been studying the Civil War (War Between the States) and there is too much Union propaganda (promoting big government) that is being taught in our public schools as fact, so much that we don't know the truth about what that (and each subsequent) war really cost us. The debt we have stems from that war! Isn't it time we come off of Martial Law? Free the Slaves (that is, you and me)? And return us to a Constitutional society more intent on providing for the common "defense" and the general welfare ... you know, THE GOOD LIFE as intend by the original intent of the Constitution! The government needs to get out of the way of the hard workers to give them back the fruit of their labors. This, I've realized, is inextricably linked to giving back to the families of slaves. However, we can't solve every problem or take on the karma for everything that happened to slaves. We can however reimburse each African-American living in the Civil War-era states of the U.S. $30,000. It's not much, but it is enough for an education, to start a business, invest or take a vacation. I don't mean to be cynical but I see us bailing out Wall Street with possibly 1 Trillion dollars while doing nothing for the 44% of Americans which live in unacceptable financial circumstances ... well, it's not my idea of America. The descendants of chattel slaves deserve the benefit of their labor for Citizens who used them for 200 years. To ignore the damage they've suffered as a result of government neglect, abuse, and outright discrimination only prolongs the other races of American Citizen getting their rights back. We are in this together.

I would welcome any serious reply to this proposed solution. Before my next post, I'll work on how much this would cost taxpayers, before the federal tax system is ended, and we are once again called Citizens and not Taxpayers.

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## Truth Warrior

*Limiting the thread to serious slaves may crimp the discussions somewhat.<IMHO>*

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## yongrel

> *Limiting the thread to serious slaves may crimp the discussions somewhat.<IMHO>*

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## Truth Warrior

> 


 *What does Star Trek have to do with it? "Where's your glasses?"*

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## jdmyprez_deo_vindice

uhhhh... reparations are bad.....m'kay

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## Kotin

um there is no such thing as a serious discussion about reparations.


because the whole concept is utter lunacy.. I dont like redistribution of wealth even it has a "good" reason.

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## Truth Warrior

*I never owned any slaves.  Oops, "seriously".*

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## RonPaulNewbee

No but you benefited from them. Just like you benefit from National Socialized Govt! Can I get some serious responses please or has this place utterly fallen apart? Dominionist? Give me a break and say something intelligent other than um, no, bad. Duh.

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## jdmyprez_deo_vindice

o.k. a serious questions about this... How in the world would you ever be able to verify who has ancestors that were enslaved? Can you imagine how much it would cost the taxpayer to hire professionals qualified to get this information? Do you not think that it would just lead to a office of reparation administration which would further bloat our budget? If we were handing out $30,000 to descendents of slaves than can you imagine how many of these descendents would come out of the woodwork? What about indentured servants? What about Asians who built the railroads and suffered? If you give in to one group who suffered some type of hardship than where would it end?

I am of Scottish and Confederate ancestry. I could raise a stink about that and have two Governments owing me money. This would never end and would only destroy our economy even faster.

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## Sandra

> No but you benefited from them. Just like you benefit from National Socialized Govt! Can I get some serious responses please or has this place utterly fallen apart? Dominionist? Give me a break and say something intelligent other than um, no, bad. Duh.


the same one's that benefitted from them may also be descended from them. Pointless discussion in Creole Country.

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## Truth Warrior

> No but you benefited from them. Just like you benefit from National Socialized Govt! Can I get some serious responses please or has this place utterly fallen apart? Dominionist? Give me a break and say something intelligent other than um, no, bad. Duh.


 *Well, they got Liberia, what else are they owed? How about North Dakota?*

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## RonPaulNewbee

Thanks for some serious replies finally. I'm of Irish and Confederate ancestry. Irish were infamously slaves too. You are right, Scottish slaves (I imagine wage slaves) built the White House and could want reparations too. 

It comes down to this principle, and not the particulars: After the Civil War (so-called), we were all enslaved by Big Government. My proposal eliminates Big Government, gives a one-time pay-off of anyone Black living in the original 32 States (not including NV or WV which became states during the war) and doesn't pretend to restore them completely or pay back all of their relatives generation upon generation who worked as chattel slaves for White masters. It doesn't incriminate anybody, any race, or pretend to equalize anything. It is meant to end slavery TODAY. Read all the other things on the wish list: the right to secession, states rights returned. 

We have to reverse what Honest Abe Lincoln did and 30,000 bucks to every Black person in the East and Midwest is trifling compared to this 1 Trillion dollar bailout of rich $#@!s. I'm guestimating that it would cost only 90,000,000 AND it would kill socialism. That's about 1/10th of nationalizing the financial sector. I'm about 1/2 way calculating this, I'll be right back.

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## Truth Warrior

*Does this mean we get a refund of the "Great Society", "War on Poverty", payments received by the slave heirs, since the 60s?*

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## heavenlyboy34

> *Does this mean we get a refund of the "Great Society", "War on Poverty", payments received by the slave heirs, since the 60s?*


how about the "war on drugs", "war on crime", and "war on terror"?

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## dsentell

Okay, the government has decided to give our money away.  Everyone start lining up . . .  

Give us a break, haven't you heard -- THE COUNTRY IS BROKE!!!!

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## RonPaulNewbee

The Great Society obviously didn't mean the rich society! We should be rich in this land, no equivocation! The Pursuit of Happiness! 

I can't get into all those wars, but there is no denying that the single issue recognized as divisive in our country, and the one single issue neglected by our Founders is slavery based on race. I'm obviously against slavery, but I believe there is a reason whites enslaved blacks that is from the dawn of history. But we can't deny it was a wrong that our (white) families did to theirs. The point is the result is that the entire country believes our civil war (that cost us about 700,000 American lives and the destruction of the South) was just about slavery and it was about protecting states rights. Yes the secession came from the need to protect the institution of slavery to preserve political balance in Washington (the 3/5ths Clause) but that point is lost on just about everyone. The 3/5s Clause sidestepped the manumission issue altogether and made men property. For that act by our forefathers, we have to "man-up" and acknowledge what wrong was done and fix what we can of it. No it won't be much. But while Lincoln was alive, Congress granted compensated emancipation to slaves in Washington D.C. Why that offer was not extended to the "slave states" I don't know. Anybody? But Lincoln chose instead to invest in creating Big Government and centralizing power at gunpoint rather than pay-off slave holders and settle the issue of slavery right there. The result was all those lives lost, federal taxation, and the loss of states rights (and thereby the right of individual sovereignty).

***Here's the particulars: My plan isolates the 35 states that were involved in the beginning of the Civil War (War Between the States). My figure of $30,000 is today's equivalent of what Congress paid for compensated emancipation to slave holders in the District of Columbia. I've estimated that in 2006 there were 35,315,000 black people living in those 35 states (I did include WV because it simply split from VA). If each black person received $30,000.00 from the Federal Government as compensation for the wrong it did to them, the total would be about $106 Billion in 2006 dollars. That is about 1/10th of this Fat Cat Bailout. Much of that would be invested and would grow the economy and create liquidity and so in essence it would pay for itself. 

It would go far toward righting a wrong ... a wrong that is impossible to properly calculate as to who has already benefited, who really had slave ancestors, and so forth, but it goes farther than anything so far to restore to Black people their rightful position as sovereign Citizens equal in law and humanity with every other race whether they believe they were once superior or not. And fixing the 14th Amendment and properly ratifying it would eliminate the second-class citizen and it's shadow legal jurisdiction.

To me this vision of racial harmony and respect is far preferable to giving rich $#@!s a trillion bucks. It may not be easy to swallow for whites, but it would be worth it to restore a broken faith and a broken Constitution that nobody is following now anyway. And with a Black president, there might never be another time to do it. I voted for Ron Paul, but he didn't win. If our Congress could see the wisdom of racial harmony (at a cheap price, relatively speaking, assuming the Congressional Black Caucus would event accept as little as $30k/person) and a restoring of the original intent of the Constitution, I believe they would have a willing President to sign it into law.

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## constituent

my ancestors were victims of the greatest genocide in human history (no, not the holocaust)...

where's my mutha-f*n money?

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## RonPaulNewbee

Genocide is a different issue. It is a very serious one and I'm not going to tie it to this, although it is certainly something figure out. How do you repay? I'm open for suggestions. I'm part Cherokee so this is an important topic. Native Americans, the ones that were left after the killing, have access to Reservations and sovereignty. American citizens don't. I am simply tying Black slaves to the Constitution that disenfranchised them and White sovereign Citizens who were disenfranchised by the Civil War(sp) to the 14th Amendment and noting how we all became slaves to Big Government/Big Business. I hope that someone smarter than me can chime in and maybe point to the hypocrisy of a Wall Street Bail-Out in the face of all I've presented.

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## Truth Warrior

*Bring on all of the pre 13th Amendment slaves held, I'll "reparate" them.*

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## constituent

> Native Americans, the ones that were left after the killing, have access to Reservations and sovereignty.


That's not correct.

Some Native Americans have access to reservations and sovereignty.

Plus, I don't want any reparations, nor money.  I want the government dissolved.

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## georgiapeach

> We can however reimburse each African-American living in the Civil War-era states of the U.S. $30,000. It's not much, but it is enough for an education, to start a business, invest or take a vacation.


First, I'd like for you to explain how you can justify saying that anybody presently alive benefitted from anybody else's ancestors. Personally, I grew up in a predominately black neighborhood, and went to a predominately black school. If anything, I had less opportunites than others in my neighborhood, because we didn't qualify for minority programs such as scholarships. I have no idea if my family ever owned any slaves, but I can tell you that *I* never benefitted from it if they did. The only thing I think I "owe" anybody is a fair shot at the same opportunites.

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## SnappleLlama

> I can't get into all those wars, but there is no denying that the single issue recognized as divisive in our country, and the one single issue neglected by our Founders is slavery based on race. I'm obviously against slavery, but I believe there is a reason whites enslaved blacks that is from the dawn of history. But we can't deny it was a wrong that our (white) families did to theirs. The point is the result is that the entire country believes our civil war (that cost us about 700,000 American lives and the destruction of the South) was just about slavery and it was about protecting states rights. Yes the secession came from the need to protect the institution of slavery to preserve political balance in Washington (the 3/5ths Clause) but that point is lost on just about everyone. The 3/5s Clause sidestepped the manumission issue altogether and made men property. For that act by our forefathers, we have to "man-up" and acknowledge what wrong was done and fix what we can of it. No it won't be much. But while Lincoln was alive, Congress granted compensated emancipation to slaves in Washington D.C. Why that offer was not extended to the "slave states" I don't know. Anybody? But Lincoln chose instead to invest in creating Big Government and centralizing power at gunpoint rather than pay-off slave holders and settle the issue of slavery right there. The result was all those lives lost, federal taxation, and the loss of states rights (and thereby the right of individual sovereignty).
> 
> ***Here's the particulars: My plan isolates the 35 states that were involved in the beginning of the Civil War (War Between the States). My figure of $30,000 is today's equivalent of what Congress paid for compensated emancipation to slave holders in the District of Columbia. I've estimated that in 2006 there were 35,315,000 black people living in those 35 states (I did include WV because it simply split from VA). If each black person received $30,000.00 from the Federal Government as compensation for the wrong it did to them, the total would be about $106 Billion in 2006 dollars. That is about 1/10th of this Fat Cat Bailout. Much of that would be invested and would grow the economy and create liquidity and so in essence it would pay for itself. 
> 
> It would go far toward righting a wrong ... a wrong that is impossible to properly calculate as to who has already benefited, who really had slave ancestors, and so forth, but it goes farther than anything so far to restore to Black people their rightful position as sovereign Citizens equal in law and humanity with every other race whether they believe they were once superior or not. And fixing the 14th Amendment and properly ratifying it would eliminate the second-class citizen and it's shadow legal jurisdiction.
> 
> .


You are insane.

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## RonPaulNewbee

> First, I'd like for you to explain how you can justify saying that anybody presently alive benefited from anybody else's ancestors. Personally, I grew up in a predominately black neighborhood, and went to a predominately black school. If anything, I had less opportunities than others in my neighborhood, because we didn't qualify for minority programs such as scholarships. I have no idea if my family ever owned any slaves, but I can tell you that *I* never benefited from it if they did. The only thing I think I "owe" anybody is a fair shot at the same opportunities.


This is a good response, as also was the one wanting to dissolve the government. To that I'd only say that I agree with the guy who said he'd reparate all the pre-13th Amendment slaves. If I take his meaning correctly, I too am for getting rid of all the bad government and returning us a truly Constitutional form of government as it existed before the 13th Amendment. But I'd also require that slavery of blacks, indians, irish, and sovereign citizens be eliminated. As far as Native Americans, that is a tough one. I don't have an answer on that. Maybe you can offer one? Ever thought about it before?

How can I claim that anyone today has benefited from anyone yesterday? Infrastructure was created. Markets were created. Labor was created. Estates were created. Farms were created. Laws were created. Beneficiaries were created. Families were created. I grew up in Georgia, okay? I also don't believe we "owe" anybody alive. The fact is we all benefited from all the was created here (and I don't mean creationism). It's not about owing anybody - $30k doesn't really "pay" for anything. It is about being equally unconstitutional as this big bail-out, but for a just cause. Do you believe the bail-out just? Huh? 

There will be turmoil without some sort of intervention to create liquidity ... I don't know what that will be though. Yes I want to get back to a Free Market economy. I'm fiscally conservative. I'm socially liberal however. Bottom line is I'm a Libertarian who sees that an injustice has been targeted on black people by the laws written by the founders. This is not White Guilt and it was not my fault but I want to alleviate the injustice done to their families by a gesture of kindness. Their heirs have not had the benefits we've had as whites. If you care to research if we've benefited from slavery, I would welcome that data. All I'm saying is that you can't in good faith save Wall Street without saving the slaves.

My deeper point is that TAX-PAYERS are slaves. That's why the IRS, the FED, ED DEPT, and SS need to be dismantled immediately after reparations are given as a last act of unconstitutionality because that would be fitting to the backwards notion of justice we've been left with here. The only Federal intrusion I want to see is adding a requirement to teach all children LAW from the 1st Grade. Average people have become dumber while the crooks in government have become smarter. The founders were intelligent and we need to get back to that somehow. We've become an Idiocracy. To the last poster who said I was crazy, please share with us the benefit of your sanity. Or STFU.

I want EVERYTHING Ron Paul wants, I'm just saying that Reparations is a good way to start healing racial wounds that still exist, and have never been healed by the party that created them. Seems we have the impression that blacks prefer Democrats because of welfare. Let's get rid of welfare, create a rich society, and get blacks on our side! You know, if you don't have anything constructive to add then just $#@! off frankly. If you want to go act like a racist then yeah continue with the stupid comments and I'll call you a racist. I don't believe Ron Paul is though. He's the type of American we should be more like! He's on the right side of history and he's devoted his life to it. By spewing your unhelpful name-calling you are really part of the problem. I think there were some civic-minded people on this forum that want to be part of the solution. Just waiting them to come back ...

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## Truth Warrior

*Actually my point was, all of the slaves are DEAD. All of the slave owners are DEAD.* 

*Pursue reparations for slavery with the slave owner's political party, today's Democrats ( so called ).*

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## RonPaulNewbee

Slaves are dead?

What do you call Tax-Payers?

That is forced labor, wage slavery, and the theft of those wages, not to mention at gun point.

We need to get rid of slavery once and for all, clean up the Constitution (and Amendments like the 16th, and the 15th, and the 14th, well you get my point). I'm just saying it will benefit us, the Ron Paul Revolutionaries have the blacks on our side ... the side of Liberty!

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## Truth Warrior

> Slaves are dead?
> 
> What do you call Tax-Payers?
> 
> That is forced labor, wage slavery, and the theft of those wages, not to mention at gun point.
> 
> We need to get rid of slavery once and for all, clean up the Constitution (and Amendments like the 16th, and the 15th, and the 14th, well you get my point). I'm just saying it will benefit us, the Ron Paul Revolutionaries have the blacks on our side ... the side of Liberty!


*Ah, a change of subject and definitions.* 

*Yes, we're ALL slaves, at least part-time.  Contrary to the false claim of the bogus Amendment XIII.* 

*The Democrats STILL OWN the "blacks" ( so called ) by and large.  Ron's "smaller government" views would NOT be appealing to them.<IMHO>*

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## Time for Change

I will contribute some money to people who were actual slaves.
They can knock on my door to ask for the money...and I'll give it to them, if they can prove they are the actual person that was a slave.
Otherwise...
Those people are all dead and gone.
Their grandkids get free healthcare, education, college, special loans (that sparked the largest financial nightmare ever)...
What the hell else do these people want?

This kiss ass white guilt movement is just sickening.
Yes the time of slavery was bad...for every nationality that experienced it through history, not just blacks.
Why does one nationality NOW deserve to have additional preferential treatment over all the others, when the events of the past have no effect on them today?
Go back to where you supposedly came from and make the descendents of the tribal leaders who actually sold your ancestors into slavery pay their debt to you.

$#@!...will the craziness ever end?

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## RonPaulNewbee

> I will contribute some money to people who were actual slaves.
> They can knock on my door to ask for the money...and I'll give it to them, if they can prove they are the actual person that was a slave.
> Otherwise...
> Those people are all dead and gone.
> Their grandkids get free healthcare, education, college, special loans (that sparked the largest financial nightmare ever)...
> What the hell else do these people want?
> 
> This kiss ass white guilt movement is just sickening.
> Yes the time of slavery was bad...for every nationality that experienced it through history, not just blacks.
> ...


Nice. 

See I don't think it works that way. I don't think that because Warren Buffet has earned a lot of money, then that is taking money away from me. The government has been the biggest bloodsucking leech and to get them off our backs and back under our sovereign control will free up immense wealth. I can't argue that blacks have had some preferential treatment. But that's not reparations. It is not a recognition of what OUR actual white family members did to THEIR actual family members. It is not about White Guilt ... $#@! I never should have used that term because now my own peeps (Paulites) are using it against me! It is about Justice. What would a Common Law Court do?


I think your statement "Yes the time of slavery was bad...for every nationality that experienced it through history, not just blacks" was wrong. I don't think the time of slavery was bad at all, except for forced separation of families, forced punitive torture, institutionalized rape, denial of education and citizenship rights. Other than that we had it great! As property though, slaves were valued and somewhat protected, thus the importance of the Fugitive Slave Act. Let me ask you this then: If $30k is a lot to you, what if you were a millionaire? If you were worth say, 2.4M, would you dole out 30 Grand to make things right with people of the black race?

"The events of the past have no effect on them today". Interesting! Nah, I've got no answer for that kind of ignorance. Is it possible that everyone on this site is racist?

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## RonPaulNewbee

> *Ah, a change of subject and definitions.* 
> 
> *Yes, we're ALL slaves, at least part-time.  Contrary to the false claim of the bogus Amendment XIII.* 
> 
> *The Democrats STILL OWN the "blacks" ( so called ) by and large.  Ron's "smaller government" views would NOT be appealing to them.<IMHO>*


Truth Warrior, that's a little myopic. Dems own blacks?

Ron's views are appealing to anyone with some time and inclination to get educated I believe. Maybe if more blacks saw themselves as Sovereign, as we all are supposed to be, maybe they would value not being on the govt dole (as you express). 

Republicans (ever since Lincoln) are for big government. What has that given us? Huh? 2 Wars doing nothing to protect America? Bailing out an entire financial market of rich $#@!s? Unbelievable. Ron is unique now and really needs a different Party. He's the only small govt. Republican left, and thereby extinct. Ron Needs his own Party! Did you see the film "America: Freedom to Fascism"?

Anyway, Dems have their own problems. It's all about the 2 party system now, isn't it? What if we were just Americans? And not shills for some lobby as it is now? I think black folks would respond well to individual sovereignty as Ron teaches it.

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## constituent

> what OUR actual white family members did to THEIR actual family members.


fail.

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## RockEnds

My ancestors ran a leg of the underground railroad, and I have documentation.  Do the former slaves owe me money because my ancestors helped smuggle them out of slavery for free?

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## mellamojuana

Forgive me, but I have never laughed any harder at anything besides this thread, except Country Bear Jamboree in Disney World.  

The wit, the sarcasm, the off the wall comments--you could earn a living in the entertainment business, if you don't already.  Brainy Bunch!

Newbie, I wonder whether you meant reparations as a sort of punitive award given as a court would do.

As others have pointed out, we are broke--actually, we are past broke.  I always considered "broke" as being down to one's last dollar without, repeat, without debt.  Here, we call what the country is "in the hole," that is, not only without money, but also owing money.  Yep, I think we can safely say that, with or without reparations, we are in the hole.

Yep, and going deeper by the minute.

Do consider the stage.

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## mellamojuana

Sorry, I couldn't edit.  The word should be "owing" money, not "owning."

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## RonPaulNewbee

> Forgive me, but I have never laughed any harder at anything besides this thread, except Country Bear Jamboree in Disney World.  
> 
> The wit, the sarcasm, the off the wall comments--you could earn a living in the entertainment business, if you don't already.  Brainy Bunch!
> 
> Newbie, I wonder whether you meant reparations as a sort of punitive award given as a court would do.
> 
> As others have pointed out, we are broke--actually, we are past broke.  I always considered "broke" as being down to one's last dollar without, repeat, without debt.  Here, we call what the country is "in the hole," that is, not only without money, but also owing money.  Yep, I think we can safely say that, with or without reparations, we are in the hole.
> 
> Yep, and going deeper by the minute.
> ...


The stage I thought I was writing to was Ron Paul Libertarians like myself. I am fully aware that what I propose (the reparation part) is not Absolutist Theory. What do we have now? Are we anywhere NEAR close to having the type of Absolute constitutional government. No, it is a dream, a very old Lysander Spooner-era dream. But alas I share that dream with you. It is truth.

However, I seem to be the only one that sees uniting with out black brothers and sisters is a reality of our proposed utopia. That's why the term racist has come into my vocabulary! Never used it before because I never had actual conversations with racists, although I've had plenty of racist neighbors. Somebody owes them something. I'm just putting a pricetag on it and some context.

The rest of the idea is pure Ron Paul Message: follow the Constitution. Well, you know? I love the Constitution except for 2 things, institutionalized discrimination against women and blacks. The Indian question I think was brought in from the reality of the situation from my favorite president, George Washington. However, even he let me down by ordering the genocide.

I liked Jefferson and Madison but not their presidencies. So what we have here is a dream, with no hope of ever being reached. We have debt, started by Lincoln to war on his fellow Americans. And we have the prospect of spending a trillion bucks on some toxic property held by Wall Street bankers. And you won't spend $30k to make friends with blacks? Now that is comedic!

Yes, I see the humor. I had wondered where the topic of reparations had gone in online dialogue! You really don't see it anymore. Maybe it's ancient history by now. I'm really not surprised by the racism, unfortunately, as I've been white for far too long. I am however surprised by the Absolutism here. I thought other Paulites would be more ... stateman-like, you know, like Ron.

I'll tell you what right now. This Absolutism (whether about the Constitution or about Free Market Economics) will assure that our shared dream will forever remain a dream. We will slide deeper into debt and totalitarianism. We will war ourselves out of a nation. Everything you don't want to happen. Maybe we need to consider making friends, and using diplomacy and compromise.

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## RockEnds

Yeah, on the Indian question. My boys are descended from American Indians on their paternal grandmother's side and a colonial Indian fighter on their paternal grandfather's side.  Do they owe reparations to themselves?

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## SeanEdwards

Seriously:

No.

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## Truth Warrior

> Truth Warrior, that's a little myopic. Dems own blacks?
> 
> Ron's views are appealing to anyone with some time and inclination to get educated I believe. Maybe if more blacks saw themselves as Sovereign, as we all are supposed to be, maybe they would value not being on the govt dole (as you express). 
> 
> Republicans (ever since Lincoln) are for big government. What has that given us? Huh? 2 Wars doing nothing to protect America? Bailing out an entire financial market of rich $#@!s? Unbelievable. Ron is unique now and really needs a different Party. He's the only small govt. Republican left, and thereby extinct. Ron Needs his own Party! Did you see the film "America: Freedom to Fascism"?
> 
> Anyway, Dems have their own problems. It's all about the 2 party system now, isn't it? What if we were just Americans? And not shills for some lobby as it is now? I think black folks would respond well to individual sovereignty as Ron teaches it.


*You're getting off to a bad start here. If you think you'd like to play some bad ass hardball, we can play.  You won't like it.*

*What party does 90% of black voters vote for, year in, year out, decade after decade, ever since FDR?  I'd call that ownership.  And the DNC thinks and acts the very same way about them.*

*I'm beginning to think that you're just delusional, for a variety of reasons.  You seem much more like a Democrat to me.  You may be on the wrong forum.  I'll leave it at that, for now. * 

*I've been a fan of Ron for over 25 years now, he knows what he is doing.  Yes, I've seen America:Freedom to Fascism, several times.*

*I think we're done here.*

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## RonPaulNewbee

> *You're getting off to a bad start here. If you think you'd like to play some bad ass hardball, we can play.  You won't like it.*
> 
> *What party does 90% of black voters vote for, year in, year out, decade after decade, ever since FDR?  I'd call that ownership.  And the DNC thinks and acts the very same way about them.*
> 
> *I'm beginning to think that you're just delusional, for a variety of reasons.  You seem much more like a Democrat to me.  You may be on the wrong forum.  I'll leave it at that, for now. * 
> 
> *I've been a fan of Ron for over 25 years now, he knows what he is doing.  Yes, I've seen America:Freedom to Fascism, several times.*
> 
> *I think we're done here.*


Don't know what climbed up your butt. But yes, I must be on the wrong forum. I am quite versed in Ron Paul's platform (if that's what he still has after his Pres. campaign). I was the only one defending his position on all the forums I was on up 'til the Primary and even after. While bloggers were calling him a racist, I was calmly finding common ground with minorities and teaching the Libertarian gospel. 

Now I've discovered a possible solution to reaching the Democratic populace. Because I found a way to bridge the gap between the cause of Liberty and current black Democrats you are calling me "more like a Democrat"? Tell me, _other than my idea_ (which I don't think Ron has commented on), what have I posted that is anything other than pure, Absolutist Ron? Anyway, why am I asking you?

You are the most unfriendliest lot, just as much as the apologist Lincoln worshipers. Pwning blacks? That's one I'm going to have to remember next time Ron and I talk about why his message didn't reach as many Americans as it could have. I'm done here. Oh, and I just want to say, these poor attitudes here should not reflect on Ron or his message. It must be some residual anger over paying taxes. 

Ron himself doesn't represent this narrow viewpoint; he's a good man. His wants liberty and justice for all.

----------


## Flash

If anything we do have to give the Native Americans more first. They are the indigineous people to the land. Black people were held as slaves, however at the end of the day they still have Africa. Natives lost everything.

----------


## UnReconstructed

my great grand-daddy was one of those irish slaves... but to the british.  They called it impressment.  He escaped off of a trade ship on the coast of Louisiana in 1841.

do I qualify for british reparations?

----------


## Dequeant

YOU DON'T WANT TO PAY REPARATIONS!?!?!!?




In all seriousness, I back paying reparations 100% to each and every person alive today that had to suffer from slavery ONE SINGLE $#@!ING IOTA.

It makes no sense whatsoever to bill people today who have had no part of slavery to give the money to people who have never been enslaved.

----------


## georgiapeach

> The rest of the idea is pure Ron Paul Message: follow the Constitution. Well, you know? I love the Constitution except for 2 things, institutionalized discrimination against women and blacks.


I can't speak for every woman but I am not the least bit offended by the way the constitution was written. The bit about women not voting is outdated, but I think it was written with the idea in mind that women would either: 1. come to an agreement with their husband and their husband's vote would speak for them both or, 2. the woman would be steamrolled by her husband into voting how he wished anyway, effectively making his vote count twice. I don't think they meant any harm by it. All in all, it was still quite progressive for its time. 
Fortunately since then women have whipped ya'll into shape and you no longer drag your knuckles on the ground.  Good thing we can make amendments!!

----------


## Truth Warrior

> Don't know what climbed up your butt. But yes, I must be on the wrong forum. I am quite versed in Ron Paul's platform (if that's what he still has after his Pres. campaign). I was the only one defending his position on all the forums I was on up 'til the Primary and even after. While bloggers were calling him a racist, I was calmly finding common ground with minorities and teaching the Libertarian gospel. 
> 
> Now I've discovered a possible solution to reaching the Democratic populace. Because I found a way to bridge the gap between the cause of Liberty and current black Democrats you are calling me "more like a Democrat"? Tell me, _other than my idea_ (which I don't think Ron has commented on), what have I posted that is anything other than pure, Absolutist Ron? Anyway, why am I asking you?
> 
> You are the most unfriendliest lot, just as much as the apologist Lincoln worshipers. Pwning blacks? That's one I'm going to have to remember next time Ron and I talk about why his message didn't reach as many Americans as it could have. I'm done here. Oh, and I just want to say, these poor attitudes here should not reflect on Ron or his message. It must be some residual anger over paying taxes. 
> 
> Ron himself doesn't represent this narrow viewpoint; he's a good man. His wants liberty and justice for all.


*Well, for starters, slavery reparations. * 

*We're usually only unfriendly to the most oblivious of the delusional loons that advocate MORE government.  Get a clue.*

----------


## RonPaulNewbee

I wanted to say something before I exited. Didn't want to leave in such a huff. I realize that few here get it. They either didn't read what I posted, or they saw one word and stiffened into Absolutist Libertarianism. On the one hand I appreciate sticking to principles. But on the other it shows a serious lack of diplomacy to insist on "my way or the highway". To possess such moral certitude! It must be nice. Okay, here's the update: Ron Paul LOST. Why? Is it the man? No, he is a perfectly intelligent and morally upright man.

The reason Ron lost is because of education (or the lack of it). About 95% of people have been lulled into that socialistic haze. That is every Libertarian's opponent, ignorance. If people understood what freedom was they would grab it. To say that the black race is incapable of grasping freedom is in fact racist. As I said earlier, I studied the Civil War and I know a bit of what blacks went through. And I can reason out the effect on a man and his posterity who has been denied legal standing, as in Dred Scott. We had institutionalized suspension of not only constitutional rights but unalienable rights.

The harm materialized in a number of ways: crime, poverty, illness, suffering, rejection, lack of education, fear, lynching, no rights, rape, and so on. We are part time slaves as someone pointed out, because of taxes. Let's weigh them: chattle versus taxpayers? Hmmmm. My point is that you can't see the other's side. Yes the two party system is corrupt in how it beats down a third party candidate, but they have learned to compromise. That's what we need. I saw Ron on CNN today saying we need to let Wall Street fail and let that create liquidity. How many people do you think took him seriously?

I believe the only ones taking him seriously are the Free Market Republicans (not the garden variety neo-cons) and in spite of all the noise that they and their constituents are making there isn't a chance that Wall Street will bail itself out. We all know this. So Goldwater Republican values will get brushed under the carpet again because there is no one around who is both principled AND powerful in the committee to draft a diplomatically crafted compromise. I want to say I agree with Ron Paul's platform and his message (but I believe Ron's Sanctity of Life should have included scientific info on development and viability to allow compromise with Pro-Choice).

But it remains that the mainstream looked upon Ron as a "principled loon". That's what they called him. And now that's what I'm being called. I guess I should be proud to be in such good company! But my point is that you need some education. The beneficiaries of slavery need education. We the People badly need some education because the Whig lawyers of yesteryear have created an American System that has successfully anesthetized the sovereign citizens into becoming the socialized masses. Think if most blacks were up to speed with Ron's message ... do you still think they'd vote for Honest John? What if Obama's opponent was Ron Paul. Think of the level of THAT debate!

This is where we are missing the boat folks. You want to cling hard and fast to those principles and continue getting that 3% "grumpy vote" every time? Or do you want to play with the big boys? If your only reason for shooting down my proposal is because the $30k figure seems high, then you are just cheap. That price is CHEAP compared to what it will continue costing us going forward without resolution of this racial tension. Without more people on board with us there will never be a revolution and we will continue funding bigger and bigger gubment. Think. Reason. Compromise.  Educate. Get on the side of reparations as a last resort even if it's untenable. Make black friends. Be frikkin' friendlier! What the hell ... nobody's reading this anymore.

I guess now I'm off to try to convince Obama to be less equivocal in his approach to the Constitution. I believe he'll do the least damage of the two remaining candidates. Can I still "write-in" Ron Paul?

----------


## Conservationist

> I don't mean to be cynical but I see us bailing out Wall Street with possibly 1 Trillion dollars while doing nothing for the 44% of Americans which live in unacceptable financial circumstances ... well, it's not my idea of America.


There are far more descendants of chattel slaves than there ever were chattel slaves.

Furthermore, that 1 trillion goes toward keeping a stable economy for all of us... not just handing money to a few.

However, since I do not believe multiculturalism has historically ever worked, I would be willing to support reparations -- with repatriation.

----------


## jdmyprez_deo_vindice

O.k. so we give all blacks that could have possibly had an enslaved ancestor and we give them a boat load of cash. Then they fall so in love with Ron Paul Republicans and Libertarian philosophies that they commit their votes to us for the rest of their lives. So we buy the votes of a minority and assume that they will be so stupid as to not see what we are doing and the ones who are against this idea are racist?

----------


## Pericles

> ...... I would be willing to support reparations -- with repatriation.


Exactly - if the complaint is that people were taken against their will to another country and made to work without wages, and that needs to be "made right" to their decendents, then our course is to reverse what happened as best we can. One time payout for that labor, and return of you and your possessions to country of origin of your ancestor. Oh, and leave your US citizenship as you go. If you want to come back, stand in line with the other immigrants.

Wonder how many takers for that deal?

----------


## rwbris18

*Reparations, ARE YOU NUTS?* 

Since you want to "REPAIR" what had been done... Do you want to send them BACK TO AFRICA also?

What about my grandfather... who died during the civil war... freeing them.

What about Navahos, Blackfoot, Sioux, Mexicans, Puritans, Mormons, etc., etc., etc.?

WHERE WOULD THIS STOP?

----------


## RonPaulNewbee

These are great replies but maybe I wasn't making my proposal clear enough. Yes, repatriation WORKS FOR ME, as long as all of us who were made federal citizens by the 14th Amendment are repatriated back to sovereign united States Citizens as described in the Constitution up until the 14th Amendment. So Citizens would regain the primacy of individual and state sovereign Citizenship instead of being merely corporate subjects of the national government. This would correct the mistake in the Constitution that denied a particular group of men and women with a particular skin color from being equal to the founders (white males). They _could_ as you say, in addition to offering Constitutional Citizenship, offer the option to return to Africa ... and could make the acceptance of the $30k reparation optional (any recipient could return the money voluntarily). Also, I think, a cap would be in store like in Obama's tax plan, such as: no reparations to individuals earning over $150k per year, the idea being that it is meant to help those in need now.

The idea is to popularize Ron Paul's message of returning to Constitutional government. My proposal would be the _last_ official act of the current socialist government, settling all the issues of the past (except Indian genocide). I don't think of it as "buying votes" and I don't "assume that they will be so stupid as to not see what we are doing and the ones who are against this idea are racist". I think of it as part of a necessary education into the true meaning of the rights that were guaranteed by the Constitution (which have been slowly eroded by the Marxists in power today and for the last 140 years). I believe we have an obligation to all citizens to educate and popularize the true meaning of Liberty as embodied by Ron's message. *Don't you?* It's not a bribe. Whites really let down the blacks in America more than any one group did to another. Of course the corporatist Marxist traitors let us all down, but I believe the blacks were even more seriously impacted by being disenfranchised of their inherent power as individuals to govern. Not all, but clearly most. To me $106 Billion is not the real problem (comparatively speaking), but educating all Americans in the need to revolt against the 2 party political system currently in collusion to create corporate imperialism.

I wrote my congressman to object to the bailout. $700 Billion appears to be a random number and could go much higher. But we all know as students of the Free Market that government interventionism doesn't SAVE THE ECONOMY as they propagandize! Let the fraudulent businesses fail and the market will correct itself in time. They want a clean bill right now so adding Ron Paul's philosophy won't be incorporated until there is a majority of us in power, or until a Libertarian is elected to the Presidency. So until then, I encourage you to write YOUR Representative and oppose the bailout: this is the very reason the Great Depression was so prolonged. Of course I see the conflict between my reparations idea and the absolute theory of Libertarian ideals. However, it acknowledges and corrects a deliberate wrong done by the flawed, all-too-human founders of those ideals (and I think admission of the truth is very Libertarian). They are OUR founders, not the Neo-Cons or the Left Wing. These parties have forsaken moral superiority and we should grab it ("My Friends")! Can you imagine if word got out that we supported minorities rights as equal to the founders sovereign rights? The Dems would go ape-$#@!. And if we take the time to TEACH Ron's message of Free Market Prosperity to all of them, the idea would catch fire and spread across this land. Republicans would know what to do. There would be no more allegiance to the current corporatist politic and we could have a majority demographic! 

But we have to win them over first.

----------


## RonPaulNewbee

> *Reparations, ARE YOU NUTS?* 
> 
> Since you want to "REPAIR" what had been done... Do you want to send them BACK TO AFRICA also?
> 
> What about my grandfather... who died during the civil war... freeing them.
> 
> What about Navahos, Blackfoot, Sioux, Mexicans, Puritans, Mormons, etc., etc., etc.?
> 
> WHERE WOULD THIS STOP?


I appreciate the notion of "where will this stop"? And it should be asked. I don't have that answer. I'm asking the question if we want to grow our base. I'm saying that our demographic is currently a bunch of "nutjobs who wear tin-foil hats". That's how we are looked at by the mainstream! I vehemently disagree with the Republican platform today. Ron Paul shouldn't be associated with them anymore. And I'm mad as hell at Democrats for this Bush Administration attempt to bailout rich frauds! But these two tents are much bigger than we will ever be _unless we start bringing in more voters_. I'm saying, let's actually address some of the problems of people, races, and cultures and welcome them into our tent. I think your grandfather was a hero by freeing slaves and history should remember his valiant efforts. So was my grandfather, Robert E. Lee, when he freed his slaves before going off to defend Virginia from the Leviathan. We have the opportunity to make this a BIG tent, not just the 3 percenter that it is now.

----------


## RockEnds

Well, damn those old white guys for lighting the lamp of liberty and leaving it up to those who came after them to make sure the flame got brighter.  What kind of candy and treats shall we serve to all the other groups to win their votes and make reparations for the failure of our ancestors?  

Some of the native peoples did fight for their freedom and were granted treaties that were dishonored.  If you're going to start somewhere, maybe you should start there.

----------


## revolutionman

find me a surviving slave, and his surviving owner, and i will greenlight reparations.

----------


## Conservationist

> This would correct the mistake in the Constitution that denied a particular group of men and women with a particular skin color from being equal to the founders (white males).


You're scientifically incorrect there.

Race is more than skin color.

* The Race FAQ
* Race and Intelligence
* IQ and the Wealth of Nations

There's a lot more at stake than skin color.

There are also people like me who speak a simple historical truth: multiculturalism doesn't work.

----------


## hope7134

Hey, Cherokee over here! Anybody hear about the trail of tears? What about the sioux slaughtered in the west? 

Slavery? Doesn't that require a master and a slave? Should the black race then become a master and the white race become the slave? Hey, hey wait a minute that's what's happening now. Isn't that a government program, called affirmative action? Isn't it called welfare? Isn't it called lowering college test scores? 

Hey, hey wait a minute what about the mexicans who were driven out of Texan? I got an idea, why don't all the white men leave this country and leave it to us cherokee, give Texas back to Mexico, give California back to Mexico and send all the blacks back to the homeland of Africa? There you go reparations for everybody! 

Or we could just restore the US Constitution and stop trying to be superior to each other (you know the master/slave thing) and begin to act like one people, with one goal: All men being created equal, and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness kinda stuff. You know kinda like the Ron Paul message, where one class, one race, one people isn't responsible for the care, upkeep or provision of another. You know kinda like the Martin Luther King: I have a dream speech. 

How about that? Doesn't that sound like the plan?

----------


## RonPaulNewbee

Thanks for the somewhat serious replies to this. This is so left field I didn't have any real expectations, just respect. The type of respect I would expect we show to Ron.

I don't know how to answer some of these responses, but I feel there is a problem that is not being addressed. Second to the inequality issue is politics and wanting to help out the Libertarian dream of liberty for all. To this post, all I can say is that I don't quite understand:




> "You're scientifically incorrect there. Race is more than skin color. There's a lot more at stake than skin color. There are also people like me who speak a simple historical truth: multiculturalism doesn't work.


Look I am aware that total absorption doesn't happen, nor should it. Even the North and the South still don't get along! On some forums I dare not admit my Southern heritage lest I be called a neo-confederate (whatever that means - I think they are saying I'm kkk?). But I don't believe people of the Enlightenment were scientifically astute enough for a scientific question on the races. Nor should that be a question with regard to inalienable rights guaranteed by a constitution. Please elaborate.





> Hey, Cherokee over here! Anybody hear about the trail of tears? What about the sioux slaughtered in the west? 
> 
> Slavery? Doesn't that require a master and a slave? Should the black race then become a master and the white race become the slave? Hey, hey wait a minute that's what's happening now. Isn't that a government program, called affirmative action? Isn't it called welfare? Isn't it called lowering college test scores? 
> 
> Hey, hey wait a minute what about the mexicans who were driven out of Texan? I got an idea, why don't all the white men leave this country and leave it to us cherokee, give Texas back to Mexico, give California back to Mexico and send all the blacks back to the homeland of Africa? There you go reparations for everybody! 
> 
> Or we could just restore the US Constitution and stop trying to be superior to each other (you know the master/slave thing) and begin to act like one people, with one goal: All men being created equal, and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness kinda stuff. You know kinda like the Ron Paul message, where one class, one race, one people isn't responsible for the care, upkeep or provision of another. You know kinda like the Martin Luther King: I have a dream speech. 
> 
> How about that? Doesn't that sound like the plan?


Alright, Mexico is neither a state nor a territory of the U.S. so I don't know why you would use that example for anything more than a rejection of imperialism. And I said I don't know what to do about the Indian genocide. So I'll just skip to the last point about restoring the Constitution. Who is gonna do that? Bob Barr (L)? John McCain (R)? They are no Ron Paul. Ron is the best man that was a candidate for President I've ever seen in my life. He really has no personal failings despite his humble self-deprecation. Yet, the message and the man are still not enough in this day and age of glossy TV personalities. Ideologues spouting absolutism are just not attractive to the masses (voters).

Look, Republicans can't even agree on if a Bailout is needed. Democrats can't agree on if the Surge worked. Now is the time to strike. Open up the platform to more experimental ideas the way the founders did. No, I don't want my kids to be denied the college of their choice because a quota system preferred less-qualified applicants. We need a justifiable reason to end welfare and quotas here but also Marxism and Fascism and I don't see a lot of help from you guys. I'm proposing thinking out of the box for the sake of getting Ron's message to catch on with a majority. You guys are acting like the enemy is dark skin. It's socialism, and that is going to lead to globalization and ultimately no more U.S. 

The longer our prosperity is tied up in wars and Chinese Credit Cards and a paper dollar that's not even worth 4 cents we'll never be able to create the kind of wealth needed to liberate people from poverty and attend to the Pursuit of Happiness. Maybe if the House Republicans (and Ron) can win the day, it will be the proof the Free Market needs to let the economy recover naturally. If not, I fear we all may be learning to speak Chinese rather soon. Tick tock!

----------


## Time for Change

Ok then I'll fall in line with your line of thought if:

My family also gets reparations for being forced to work in the coal mines and having paychecks held hostage (never delivered) because all the basic necessities were sold and price controlled by the company owned store.
Micro Socialism system in and of itself.

That means I get money too.

This is so off the wall, I can’t believe it.
One race always cries inequality, states their wants and is afforded what they wish.
Once achieved it suddenly becomes unfair and is not enough, they now want MORE.
It does not end.

I ma not a racist, but being forced to pay for something my family has absolutely nothing to do with might push me in that direction.

Where is the logic in caving in to a spoiled child, giving them everything they want just because they act out?
What good does it do to hand money to people of one race after having stolen it from the earnings of another?
That doesn't foster any ill will?
Can you not comprehend that?

It is the government stealing money from one to give it to another.
Would you be ok with your neighbor coming in to your home and taking money because he says you owe him for a broken window, which was actually broken by a kid 2 blocks away 85 years ago?
You had nothing to do with that, nor do the people currently living in the original offender's home.

The logic in your thoughts is flawed and badly so.
To hand money over so these people can "Get Mine" is no solution to any perceived problem.
It sets up the next rant and demand for additional "reparations".

If a person does not work to get ahead they cannot appreciate the money that results from the work,
It has no value.
Look at a trust fund kid...they spend like the wind with no regard for the effort initially put forth to make that money...then they stomp their feet and demand more.
Sound familiar?

Preferential Job placement regardless of qualifications, job security regardless of performance, protected social status based on skin color, free healthcare, free food, free housing, NO REQUIREMENT TO WORK IF THEY CHOOSE NOT TO WORK, free education...all of this is NOT available to my children.
If I lose my job, they go hungry because they are NOT black.

Now we want to give out bonuses?

What is wrong with this country?
The land of opportunity has been taken hostage.
Everyone wants to consume and nothing more?

If equality is truly the end results...work just as hard to get ahead...just like everyone else, with no special programs, no favors.
Work your ass up the ladder just like everyone else.

Get out troll.

----------


## Pete

Water under the bridge, Newbee.  What are you going to do, redress every human grievance back to when Cain killed Abel?

Lesson #1 if you are going to subscribe to Ron Paul's philosophy: Collectivism only causes division.  What matters are the rights of the individual.

This idea of reparations is collectivist, as a large victim group has been identified for special treatment.

Something to watch:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...MZSM-QGurNn1Dw

----------


## Dieseler

From what I gather from this video, you've already had your reparations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs
To bad the majority were so $#@!ing stupid they couldn't save up for a  down payment (on a home they could afford) and ask for a fixed rate loan. Your reparation has come and gone.
You squandered it unknowingly all the while destroying a nation.
What would you have us give you now?
Would you wish for my blood now as well?
I will not give it freely.

----------


## hope7134

Point is RonPaulNewbee, where do people finally stop demanding for injustices that were never done to them? Sure my family was driven in the trail of tears from Tennessee to Oklahoma, but what do I do now? Hold the entire country responsible? Or do we finally put our differences behind us and come together as one nation, instead of many different nations-divided? Gotta, stop living in the past and start building a future. One of the main problems with the bailout, the lack of fair education for all people, the ability for all to achieve in a fair market, is this I owe you, you owe me crap. The truth is, everybody owes everybody else. Get over it and move forward. This crap is tearing this country apart and divided we fall. United we stand. This stuff is propaganda, by the elite who want votes and you have bought into it. Either wake up or go to the dem sites. You will find a lot of people to agree with you there.

What Ron Paul wants is freedom for all people to be responsible for their own failures and successes, without making other people responsible. It's called responsibility, not dependence on a government that right now is failing everyone. 

There's no free rides and no safety nets in life, everyone pays for their right to be!And no one escapes. Now if we lived in the land of Oz with the yellow brick road, it might be different. But, this ain't Oz and there ain't no good witch of the North to take care of everything. People need to grow up and be responsible for themselves and stop whining over the past. But, if they won't then let's all whine, because all of us have reasons to do so. 

Hey, I'm with you Truth Warrior, I'm outta here!

----------


## lucius

*They Were White and They Were Slaves: The Untold History of the Enslavement of Whites in Early America*
- Michael Hoffman II
Details for this torrent: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4328..._Early_America

Mr. Hoffman presents a rough outline of the history of the enslavement of whites in Europe, the Middle East, North Africa, the Carribean and finally in America from Roman times to the begining of the 20th century. Documented are such details as:

-Slavery in ancient Greece and attitudes towards slaves there
-Arab traffic in white slave to the Middle East
-The Vikings' massive involvement in the slave trade during the middle ages
-White slavery and ethnic-cleansing in Ireland and Barbados under Oliver Cromwell
-Kidnapping of whites in Britain to bring to the Americas
-Child labor and gross working conditions in the mines and factories in America and Britain during the industrial revoloution.
-One of the most disturbing events documented here: the use of "human brooms" as chimney sweeps in England during the 1800's. These might be able to claim the worst status. The orphans who had to climb up chimneys filled with toxic dirt and soot weren't even paid to do so, they were forced to do that work and then BEG for a living.
-White slavery and white slave trade in colonial America. These whites were treated as more expendable then the African slaves because the slave ships had to go out of their way to pick up Africans.
-"Redneck," because whites had to work out in the fields in the sun so their skin would get tanned and burned.
-"Hillbilly," because when they were freed or escaped, the slaves had nowhere to live except in remote places in the backwoods and especially APPALACIA.
-The race politics presented here explain and elucidate the animostiy between blacks, lower class whites and the white slave-and-plantation owning aristocracy in the South.
-This one's the kicker: the word SLAVE actually comes from SLAV, the white peoples of Eastern Europe who were often raided and held in bondage by invaders.

This book is well worth getting a hand on and reading, because it proves that slavery is a universal condition that has been practiced against all races and nations of people, even against those traditionally portrayed (i.e. Anglo Saxons/whites) as being the slavemasters and oppressors.

----------


## Time for Change

Good post...but you need to look up the redneck thing.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...n17174894/pg_2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain
That was a bandanna marking during the coal miners revolting (the Battle of Blair Mountain ) to identify who you were fighting with.
Government intervened there too.

----------


## RonPaulNewbee

Well this was an interesting thought experiment. I'd hoped to build a bridge to black people, who recognize the position our founders put them in (light of liberty, yes for whites). It would be nice if Ron Paul's followers weren't so cheap, were more generous, weren't so absolutist and more statesmanlike. Oh well, I'll keep looking for those who actually want Ron's message to reach a wider audience. Surely not finding them here. But thanks for playing!





> *They Were White and They Were Slaves: The Untold History of the Enslavement of Whites in Early America*
> - Michael Hoffman II
> Details for this torrent: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4328..._Early_America
> 
> Mr. Hoffman presents a rough outline of the history of the enslavement of whites in Europe, the Middle East, North Africa, the Carribean and finally in America from Roman times to the begining of the 20th century. Documented are such details as:
> 
> -Slavery in ancient Greece and attitudes towards slaves there
> -Arab traffic in white slave to the Middle East
> -The Vikings' massive involvement in the slave trade during the middle ages
> ...


I realize that whites have been slaves in this country but they were never to the extent that blacks were. I even said in one of my first posts, "I believe there is a reason whites enslaved blacks that is from the dawn of history." There's $#@! that goes back before recorded time. But nobody ever seemed to be able to debate the fact that all races and cultures benefited from black slaves and I find that rather blind. All the best!

----------


## TurtleBurger

If I inherited money or property that was generated on the backs of slaves, I would feel responsible to find the heirs of those slaves and pay them the back-wages they were due.  Most white Americans aren't in that situation though.  My ancestors came to America after the 1860s and never owned any slaves.  Nothing I own today has anything to do with slavery, so there is no reason I should be on the hook for reparations.

----------


## Pete

You have a future in Congress, Newbee.

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## lucius

> Well this was an interesting thought experiment...


No, I see this argument for what it is: a subtle variation of divide et imperium, more of our social engineering for control purposes for all Americans. I USED no one 200 years ago NOR did you; read 'Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism' (ISBN: 0807842532) if you wish to understand the mechanics of exploiting deeply implanted false-guilts.

Also, how much more HELP can African-Americans STAND from Leviathan's REAL policy agenda? The results of the "Great Society", well, are not that great...

Listen to their words:

"We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. *We don't want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.*"

Margaret Sanger's December 19, 1939 letter to Dr. Clarence Gamble, 255 Adams Street, Milton, Massachusetts. Original source: Sophia Smith Collection, Smith College, North Hampton, Massachusetts. Also described in Linda Gordon's Woman's Body, Woman's Right: A Social History of Birth Control in America. New York: Grossman Publishers, 1976.

Not just in America either, look at sub-Sahara population projections (almost a complete depopulation in 66 years)...'Utopean Dreams' are always psychotic.

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## Pete

> *They Were White and They Were Slaves: The Untold History of the Enslavement of Whites in Early America*
> - Michael Hoffman II
> Details for this torrent: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4328..._Early_America


I happened to download this a couple of days ago while looking for 'Social Genocide', a movie about Argentina's 2001 economic meltdown.  It came up on the search and looked interesting.  It was.  Though it was obvious that the author's main purpose was to oppose reparations, it was well researched and documented with footnotes.

Some things I found interesting:
It explains our sizable white underclass.  Many came to the US as 'convicts', similar to Australia. Very often, these convicts committed minor crimes associated with being desperately poor (e.g., poaching, shoplifting, vagrancy).  Honestly, I don't think I'll ever use the expression 'white trash' again.Black slaves came to be preferred over white slaves because they were regarded as 'more docile'.  I suspect their 'docility' was resignation because they would not blend into the surrounding population, due to skin color, if they were to escape.Appalachia and the South were heavily populated by runaway and freed white slaves.  To me, this gave a new meaning to the old expression, "head for the hills".Ben Franklin came very close to being mistakenly arrested as a runaway slave.  This was mentioned in a biography I read.Robert Louis Stevenson's book, 'Kidnapped' is based on a true story of an upper-class boy sold into slavery by unscrupulous relatives.  The word 'kidnapped' came from predators who would snatch children for export as slaves.The book discusses how the factory systems of the Industrial Revolution grew out of the poorhouse and workhouse systems of earlier times.  I don't agree with the author that this was the same as slavery, but it was interesting nonetheless.The story of white slavery is submerged because TPTB don't really want it to be known that they were capable of enslaving anybody, not just blacks.

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## lucius

> ...looking for 'Social Genocide'...


Did you find an active download? I have been looking for this and the 'The Dignity of the Nobodies', both by Fernando Solanas ('Memoria Del Saquere' & 'La Dignidad de los Nadies'). thx

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## Truth Warrior

> no, i see this argument for what it is: A subtle variation of divide et imperium, more of our social engineering for control purposes for all americans. I used no one 200 years ago nor did you; read 'thought reform and the psychology of totalism' (isbn: 0807842532) if you wish to understand the mechanics of exploiting deeply implanted false-guilts.
> 
> Also, how much more help can african-americans stand from leviathan's real policy agenda? The results of the "great society", well, are not that great...
> 
> Listen to their words:
> 
> "we should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the negro is through a religious appeal. *we don't want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.*"
> 
> margaret sanger's december 19, 1939 letter to dr. Clarence gamble, 255 adams street, milton, massachusetts. Original source: Sophia smith collection, smith college, north hampton, massachusetts. Also described in linda gordon's woman's body, woman's right: A social history of birth control in america. New york: Grossman publishers, 1976.
> ...


*qft!*

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## Pete

Just bought Memoria del Saqueo on eBay, about $34.  The guy had 14 copies.

This is one of the best movies I've ever seen.  YouTube link for anyone interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH6_i8zuffs

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## RonPaulNewbee

> If I inherited money or property that was generated on the backs of slaves, I would feel responsible to find the heirs of those slaves and pay them the back-wages they were due.  Most white Americans aren't in that situation though.  My ancestors came to America after the 1860s and never owned any slaves.  Nothing I own today has anything to do with slavery, so there is no reason I should be on the hook for reparations.


TurtleBurger, I officially declare you "off the hook"!

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## RonPaulNewbee

> You have a future in Congress, Newbee.


I've thought about it, Pete, but it is problematic. First I don't have a background in law. Second I'd have to get some bonafides in local government and man ... talk about boring! And petty ... I know because I've participated in a little bit (public hearings) and I'd just be too frustrated. 

But hearing Ron Paul on TV yesterday and people like Difazio and Kaptur as they argued on the House floor: that was fantastic! I think about how much I would need to learn about economics but then hearing one of those bozos (not Difazio/Kaptur) describe how they never wanted to have to vote on this sort of thing but that they are going to anyway ... all I can think of is how much better I would be at that job than them.

Ron got asked if most of them even understood the economic problem in front of them and he said NO. What a hoot! Sublime theater! After hearing how downtrodden most of them were, I couldn't help wonder if there was some sort of strong arm tactic used on them. Blackmail. One lady hinted at it by saying the only way she escaped the pressure was by getting her NAY out early. _Anybody heard about such strong arm tactics?_

And finally, despite the call of liberty, I wonder how much good I could even do in a Marxist machine as this has become. I'm too depressed right now to even think about it. Thomas Paine, "fatigue" is right! Thanks for the vote ... of confidence, anyway, Pete. [I'm not really a newbee, btw]

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## hope7134

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GVIAypsnh8

or maybe you would take a lesson from Martin Luther King, who was against welfare but wanted our country to be fair to all men, women and children. He was against white moderates who wouldn't see that the system of handouts, crippled the minority classes. You would do well to study his views, as he was the most powerful leader of the balck race ever. By the way he was in jail for fighting against the very believes you have, when he wrote this letter. White moderates stood in his way. If you want to fight for the balck race, then fight like Ron Paul for their Constitutional freedoms. Stop trying to make the black race be more dependent on government handouts. They will never be free as long as people like you make them dependents of a government which is doomed to fail them. My question to you is: "Are you a democrat come here to spread the democrat propaganda? Because it is obvious you are not a conservative republican constitutionalist like Ron Paul. Why are you on this forum?

http://members.aol.com/klove01/jailltr.htm

First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fan in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. 

I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality.

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## Dieseler

I guess maybe I was wrong about this. Between Newbees commentary and this great documentary I found while researching slavery and reparations I'm now leaning towards doing whats right.
If reparations were carried out in the manner described in this documentary it could quite possibly save our economy.
Visit this link for the plan.
http://www.jibjab.com/view/140957

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## Dieseler

> I guess maybe I was wrong about this. Between Newbees commentary and this great documentary I found while researching slavery and reparations I'm now leaning towards doing whats right.
> If reparations were carried out in the manner described in this documentary it could quite possibly save our economy.
> Visit this link for the plan.
> http://www.jibjab.com/view/140957


This would be a best case scenario to say the least.

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## RonPaulNewbee

First, Dielseler, that was exactly what I had in mind. Chuck Taylor's theatrical report was exactly what I hope for! I didn't propose 1tn dollars, though. But hey, who knows?





> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GVIAypsnh8
> 
> or maybe you would take a lesson from Martin Luther King, who was against welfare but wanted our country to be fair to all men, women and children. He was against white moderates who wouldn't see that the system of handouts, crippled the minority classes. You would do well to study his views, as he was the most powerful leader of the balck race ever. By the way he was in jail for fighting against the very believes you have, when he wrote this letter. White moderates stood in his way. If you want to fight for the balck race, then fight like Ron Paul for their Constitutional freedoms. Stop trying to make the black race be more dependent on government handouts. They will never be free as long as people like you make them dependents of a government which is doomed to fail them. My question to you is: "Are you a democrat come here to spread the democrat propaganda? Because it is obvious you are not a conservative republican constitutionalist like Ron Paul. Why are you on this forum?
> 
> http://members.aol.com/klove01/jailltr.htm
> 
> First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fan in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. 
> 
> I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality.


Hope, you have a good heart, so I want to answer your direct question directly. You asked what I was doing here and questioned my cred basically. While I disagree with personalizing debates (you know what they say about great minds), I will answer you despite the fact that you have neglected to read my actual proposal which was 100% Paul. Again, I reiterate (is that redundant?) that I am for Ron's plan of returning to constitutional government. However, as you well know, our constitution has been twisted inside and out that it is no longer recognizable. They even acknowledge that in the MSM! Slavery however was never dealt with properly in the constitution. I propose that the 13th through 16th Amendments be revoked and rewritten properly. But to set your worries aside I will tell you exactly where I come from.
I believe that slavery was never addressed properly, nor was the black race by being denied Citizenship and I think it had something to do with Christianity being relied upon for a justification of it. I don't believe the founders were bad men because of this, but they had their hands tied from the fact that the colonists had an overwhelming economic interest in southern agriculture and to create a Union they needed the South on board.I believe that two issues collided in 1860, states rights and partisanship based on preserving slavery as a constitutional practice: the South saw that it would be marginalized politically if new states were added but were not allowed to voluntarily employ slavery as guaranteed in the Constitution. So Lincoln started a war between American Citizens and what resulted was the destruction of our constitutional society by martial law, and fraudulent taxation to pay for unending war and ballooning government.Additionally, the Amendments that resulted (unconstitutionally, btw) created a new second class citizen and that is just how Americans have been treated since. We have a Centralized Government to fear now, and the seeds were planted for a central bank, standing armies, socialism (more like communism since last weekend) and a general loss of liberty and pursuit of happiness due to our government depriving We the People of their gold.I also believe that Roosevelt did us no favors by the confiscation of gold, the New Deal, Social Security, and a host of unneeded policies that led to an unnecessary expansion of the Great Depression. His policies were merely extensions of Hoover's failed policies which were incorrectly credited to laissez-faire economics. Yet history falsely records Hoover as an example of (so-called) "failed" Free Market ideology, Roosevelt as the great president who rescued the people from the Great Depression, and Lincoln as the martyred greatest president in history who saved the country and freed the slaves.Shall I go on? The Great Society, the five recent American wars fought without a declaration of war, the unseemly expansion of debt by president after president, not to mention the obscene amount of power consolidated in the Chief Executive. Now we have a Commander in Chief instead of a President with power checked by the Congress and the Courts. The Military Commissions Act, Nation-building as official Army Policy, No Child Left Behind and the Edumacation Department which will not teach the correct version of history I just laid out above.I mention the Dept. of Edumacation because I believe that it, like just about every government policy since the Civil War, is a fraud on the American People. The real purpose for that department of our federal government is to dumb down the populace. I think we need to return to a constitutional-sized government just as Ron Paul suggests. I DON'T think we need to be spending $700 trillion dollars every weekend to buy toxic assets that are worthless and have the Fed cut interest rates!

If you think that what I stated above significantly diverges from Ron Paul's philosophy of government, I will leave this forum never to return. But I strongly disagree with the notion that you can attack me personally for having an idea that I think will help the Libertarian cause. It's just an idea! You may not think it consistent with Ron Paul. But I think if done properly, *as the final act of big government before returning to constitutional government*, it could once and for all make peace with a disenfranchised race of Americans.

Finally, I think you used your MLK quote _selectively_. I agree with his take on the "white moderate, who is more devoted to _order_ than to justice". I think this has been the approach of the Courts: political expediency. I am FOR justice, as described by Marbury in "Whatever Happened to Justice?" By delaying reparations, the government has colluded with the white race which believes it doesn't owe anything to anybody, especially welfare recipients. My proposal eliminates Welfare! But you selectively failed to read that. I would recommend you read what I've actually proposed instead of questioning my loyalty, then get back to me. I believe, like King, that we should exert tireless effort to be co-workers with God. (see below).




> I have just received a letter from a white brother in Texas [who] writes: "Any Christian knows that the colored people will receive equal rights eventually, but it is possible that you are in too great a religious hurry. It has taken Christianity almost two thousand years to accomplish what it has..." Such an attitude stems from a tragic misconception of time, from the strangely rational notion that there is something in the very flow of time that will inevitably cure all ills. Actually, time itself is neutral; it can be used either destructively or constructively. More and more I feel that the people of ill will have used time much more effectively than have the people of good will... Human progress never rolls in on wheels of inevitability; it comes through the tireless efforts of men willing to be co-workers with God." -King

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## unreconstructed1

Newbee,

I am a white man born of Southern blood, third generation removed ancestor of Confederate Soldiers. Do I owe anybody anything? NO.

first of all, as far as reparations go. Yes, a substantial part of America was built on the backs of Slave labor. What everyone seems to forget in this argument is that the entire deal honestly worked out in trade. the living descendants of those slaves have the opportunity to live much better lives because of their ancestors. they have the ability to get educated, to the same freedoms as everyone else. Had their ancestors not been brought over here, they would have been born on the Ivory Coast, if at all. the entire region, not to mention the entire continent is a powder Keg. Governments change hands weekly, depending upon who has the most guns, there is no freedom of speech, no freedom to assemble, few public schools, in short.... nothing. On top of that, Africa is currently undergoing an AIDS epidemic of black plague porportions, and new plagues are popping up all the time. extreme poverty, genocide, cannibalism, and even slavery are all parts of modern day Africa. If you ask me, they should honor their ancestors for their tribulations rather than attempt to leech off of their suffering in order to make a quick buck.

As far as the institution itself goes:
Slavery wasnt what most people have in mind. first, all of those slaves weren't captured along the coast while they were out fishing, they were bought and paid for From African Chiefs. they were considered property there as well. African Tribal traditions taught that when one tribe went to war with another tribe, the conquered tribe was taken into slavery by the victorious tribe. eventually, African tribal elders had been selling their tribesman into servitude to the Barbary pirates for quite some time before the Triangle trade became established, they just began selling them to Europeans as well. 

Slavery in the early colonies wasn't  alifetime servitude type of deal either. Black slaves were just like any other indentured Servants, they could work extra to pay off what was owed of them, and then they had their freedom. Such was the case with ANthony Johnson. Johnsons case isn't talked about very much when the debate about slavery begins to go, because of the circumstances surrounding his case.

Johnson ( at the time known only as "Antonio")was one of the 20 original Africans brought to Jamestown. Johnson was a slave. he worked his way out of slavery and eventually managed to buy his own plot of land, settle down with a wife 4 children and an African Slave of his own. A white neighbor tried to steal Johnsons slave, and he took this person to court. the court ruled in his favor, and some sources have stated that this case is the first one to set legal precedent for lifetime generational slavery in America. Africans not only brought the institution upon themselves, they even fought to keep it in American courts.

now on a side note. As I said earlier, I am the third generation removed descendent of Confederate soldiers. during Lincolns unconstitutional war, several of his Generals, most notably Sherman and Sheridan waged war using what would be considered today "scorched Earth campaigns". although modern historians attempt to downplay his destruction of the South, the bottom line is Federal troops raided, pillaged, and plundered their way through the South, and a lot of people lost everything they ad due to these actions. that war devastated the Southern economy, and left Southern life in shambles. afterwards, they waged a different type of war, Reconstruction. many in the South, whites included, were basically left as second class citizens due to the direct action of the federal government. If you want to talk reparations, where is ours?

we aren't owed anything and neither is anyone else.

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## RonPaulNewbee

> Newbee,
> 
> I am a white man born of Southern blood, third generation removed ancestor of Confederate Soldiers. Do I owe anybody anything? NO....
> 
> we aren't owed anything and neither is anyone else.


That was a pretty decent reply. Thanks for presenting your history as well as your opinion! While I agree with your take on the history of blacks in America, and especially your take on how the war drove Dixie down, I just have a slightly different take on the outcome. Yes, I totally agree that the result of the Reconstruction was horrendous. As I mentioned before, my family, the Lees, ended up in Georgia and I therefore grew up in Atlanta. My grandfather was a general in the CSA. But that has not led me to have "white guilt" as one has claimed. To the contrary! If anything, it has given me a keener awareness of what is right and wrong, and I have come to the conclusion he did as well as Davis and Stephens about the aims of protecting constitutional government in the face of frauds like Lincoln and others to come who would influence future presidents like our dear leader Bush, the "soft" fascist. In short, the South was right. But for the worst of the conditions of slavery, there is little that can pay that back. My idea of $106 Billion came in the wake of a $700 Billion war, a $700 bailout (unreported in MSM) and a $840 Billion Wall Street Bailout, not to mention the various $25 Billion and $100 Billion cheques issued by the Treasury and Fed recently. While I don't agree with those bailouts either, in that light, $106 as an apology is just that: an apology. It doesn't really represent a leg up for anyone. But it is closer to dealing with the issue than any affirmative action. Frankly, I would have rather had the federal government invest $106 Billion in reparations than the $2.2 Trillion that it just did on further screwing up the economy and the constitution. Again, thanks for thoughtful reply and I agree with most of your points, I just don't think the country has adequately dealt with this issue yet. And my political point was: wouldn't it be nice to spread Ron's message about liberty to those of color, those who mostly believe that Libertarians are racist (because of partisan lies)? It is time, I believe, for political solidarity between white and black in Libertarianism: we are on the same side, we are slaves. But whites will never hold that kind of street cred as long as blacks can still say: "you have no idea what slavery _is_ about." I fear that they would still be right.

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## truelies

I would rather see the entire Country burned to the ground than to see even ONE devalued/inflated/fiat money paid in so called reparations.

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## xd9fan

*is this thread for real????

maybe the country if they tax us more can protect us from life itself.

get off the crack people,,,wake up your country is broke.*

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## RonPaulNewbee

> I would rather see the entire Country burned to the ground than to see even ONE devalued/inflated/fiat money paid in so called reparations.


Actually I just found out it's happening (if Barack Obama becomes president). He calls it a stimulus package and apparently those who file their tax returns but who don't qualify for taxes will get "a check" like the other 95%. Now only if he'd call it reparations we could just be over it once and for all.

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## hillbilly123069

What about what was done to the native american indians? I'm half cherokee and I'm not raising hell because of what happened to my ancestors.People alive today had nothing to do with those that drove my bloodline out of the appalachian mountains or then forced them to Oklahoma.Get over it.

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## RonPaulNewbee

> What about what was done to the native american indians? I'm half cherokee and I'm not raising hell because of what happened to my ancestors.People alive today had nothing to do with those that drove my bloodline out of the appalachian mountains or then forced them to Oklahoma.Get over it.


I don't know, why don't YOU tell me about what was done to the "native american indians". Why are you posting? Trying to get the last word or something? Or do you have some solution to offer? With your attitude you have no right to raise hell regardless.

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## tonesforjonesbones

So..you want to buy the votes of the black folks for the libertarian party.  Democrats have already played that game out.  I am a southerner..and my family has been in the south since the 1700's.  My uncle far removed was AP Stewart a Confederate General...and My great uncle removed , Benjamin Stewart was a physician for the Confederacy.  None of my ancestors ever owned a slave.  I figure the blood of my ancestors is reparations enough.  Tones

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## RockEnds

> I don't know, why don't YOU tell me about what was done to the "native american indians". Why are you posting? Trying to get the last word or something? Or do you have some solution to offer? With your attitude you have no right to raise hell regardless.


Dee Brown's _Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee_ explains part of it.

http://books.google.com/books?id=pWp...-L7a5g#PPP1,M1

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## Sic Semper Tyrannis

There is only ONE group that deserves reparations, it's not the blacks, not the natives, but the 

*JAPANESE AMERICANS*

that are still alive today and that were put in camps during WW2. Other then them no one else alive today should recieve reparations, because they want them for the ancestors and from people that had nothing to do with anything.

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## RockEnds

> There is only ONE group that deserves reparations, it's not the blacks, not the natives, but the 
> 
> *JAPANESE AMERICANS*
> 
> that are still alive today and that were put in camps during WW2. Other then them no one else alive today should recieve reparations, because they want them for the ancestors and from people that had nothing to do with anything.


Hmm.  That is an interesting point.  I would still be against reparations as a group, though.  There may be several individuals within that group who have grounds for compensation, however.

I do agree that having oppressed ancestors shouldn't be grounds for reparations.  My point to the OP (not that he or she has any interest in it at all) is simply that the issue with some of the native tribes involved treaties between separate nations.  Treaties are legal contracts.  The OP, however, appears to have no interest in examining any argument that doesn't involve passing out cash in exchange for votes.

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## tonesforjonesbones

I think the Indians get reparations and the Japanese get them.  OR the Japanese got some money but perhaps not ongoing.  tones

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## RockEnds

> I think the Indians get reparations and the Japanese get them.  OR the Japanese got some money but perhaps not ongoing.  tones


It's not all about money:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tim-gi...o_b_50480.html

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## tonesforjonesbones

I asked an indian ..from canada on paltalk what it is she wanted ..her reply "EVERYTHING"...so it won't stop with reparations.  tones

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## hillbilly123069

> Hey, Cherokee over here! Anybody hear about the trail of tears? What about the sioux slaughtered in the west? 
> 
> Slavery? Doesn't that require a master and a slave? Should the black race then become a master and the white race become the slave? Hey, hey wait a minute that's what's happening now. Isn't that a government program, called affirmative action? Isn't it called welfare? Isn't it called lowering college test scores? 
> 
> Hey, hey wait a minute what about the mexicans who were driven out of Texan? I got an idea, why don't all the white men leave this country and leave it to us cherokee, give Texas back to Mexico, give California back to Mexico and send all the blacks back to the homeland of Africa? There you go reparations for everybody! 
> 
> Or we could just restore the US Constitution and stop trying to be superior to each other (you know the master/slave thing) and begin to act like one people, with one goal: All men being created equal, and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness kinda stuff. You know kinda like the Ron Paul message, where one class, one race, one people isn't responsible for the care, upkeep or provision of another. You know kinda like the Martin Luther King: I have a dream speech. 
> 
> How about that? Doesn't that sound like the plan?


There's stuff in the Constitution about not being held responsible for your fathers debts as well.Get over it.Take it up with God when you meet Him.

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## xd9fan

> Or we could just restore the US Constitution and stop trying to be superior to each other (you know the master/slave thing) and begin to act like one people, with one goal: All men being created equal, and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness kinda stuff. You know kinda like the Ron Paul message, where one class, one race, one people isn't responsible for the care, upkeep or provision of another. You know kinda like the Martin Luther King: I have a dream speech.
> 
> How about that? Doesn't that sound like the plan?


libs and "progressives"(barf) dont like this idea because it does not make them feel good about themselves.

----------

