# Lifestyles & Discussion > Peace Through Religion >  Just War Theory and ISIS

## Brett85

I know that a lot of people here are probably going to disagree with this, but I thought it would be interesting to post this and see what the counter arguments are.  Feel free to respond.  Thanks.

http://townhall.com/columnists/steve...-isis-n1889814




> In our constitutional republic there are two criteria for determining if an action by government is moral and/or legal. Would U.S. military action against ISIS, which has become the face of evil in the world at the moment, meet that criteria?
> 
> 
> The first criteria is the "Laws of Nature and Nature's God." This requires the action committed by government to be moral, which means to be in accordance with natural law. This natural law requires military action to be morally justified given the human toll at stake. Dating all the way back to Augustine's City of God, this is what's more commonly known today as "just war theory." 
> 
> 
> There are seven components to Just War Theory. Let's take a look at each and see if military action against ISIS applies. 
> 
> 
> ...

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## Muwahid

If we apply this theory to the real facts, would fighting IS be justified still? 

For example IS didn't merely kill two US citizens, they killed two US citizens *after* being bombed by US jets. So how would a fact like that play out here? 

Also the fact that after the execution of Foley they gave the ultimatum to stop, or the next would be executed, meaning, it's clearly not a last resort, which puts this line into question, _"Obviously a marauding gang of villainous thugs like ISIS, that is too radical for even Al-Qaeda, is beyond reasoning with."_

Also as a side note I see a lot of stuff like "IS is even too extreme for Al Qaeda! Egad!", when this is just sensationalism... the rift between Al Qaeda and IS is because Aymen al Zawahiri wanted a local Syrian group to be the Al Qaeda wing in Syria, and keep Baghdadis group (Dawlat 'il-Iraq al-Islamiyye) in Iraq only. Baghdadi disagreed and decided he had enough manpower to fight in both fronts, and he disobeyed Zawahiri's orders, hence... Al Qaeda doesn't like IS, Jahbat Nusra doesn't like IS.

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## pcosmar

Someone trying awfully hard to sell war.

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## jmdrake

The real question is, does a just war with ISIS justify an unjust war against Assad just to get ISIS?

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## Brett85

> The real question is, does a just war with ISIS justify an unjust war against Assad just to get ISIS?


Getting rid of Assad would mean that ISIS would take over Syria, which is why it's such an incredibly stupid idea.

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## Brett85

> Also as a side note I see a lot of stuff like "IS is even too extreme for Al Qaeda! Egad!", when this is just sensationalism... the rift between Al Qaeda and IS is because Aymen al Zawahiri wanted a local Syrian group to be the Al Qaeda wing in Syria, and keep Baghdadis group (Dawlat 'il-Iraq al-Islamiyye) in Iraq only. Baghdadi disagreed and decided he had enough manpower to fight in both fronts, and he disobeyed Zawahiri's orders, hence... Al Qaeda doesn't like IS, Jahbat Nusra doesn't like IS.


Osama Bin Laden wrote a letter before he died denouncing ISIS for being too extreme.  

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/ISI...reveals-370744

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## Christian Liberty

> Osama Bin Laden wrote a letter before he died denouncing ISIS for being too extreme.  
> 
> http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/ISI...reveals-370744


So much for the idea that Bin Laden just hated us for our freedoms and was a mindless monster who wanted to slaughter all the infidels.

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## heavenlyboy34

How does one declare war against a private "terror" group like ISIS or al-Queada?  (I have to put "terror" in quotes because what they are doing is just the impoverished 3rd world equivalent of war.  IDR who originally said it, but "terror is the poor man's war, and war is the rich man's terror")

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## Brett85

> So much for the idea that Bin Laden just hated us for our freedoms and was a mindless monster who wanted to slaughter all the infidels.


I think Bin Laden actually had a political motive for his killings.  He wanted to attack the United States because of our intervention in the Muslim world for the last 60 years.  I think ISIS is just a group of evil monsters who just kill indiscriminately and have no real political motivation for what they're doing.

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## kylejack

> Proportionality
> 
> If ISIS is everything they've shown themselves to be, and our military is given the tools and the rules of engagement necessary to eradicate them, then the potential benefits to the American people out-weigh the cost of military action.


That is not a correct assessment of proportionality. Proportionality means that the military response should be roughly on-par with what was done to the aggrieved party [The United States, in this case]. 

I am absolutely certain that our response will go far beyond being proportional for the death of 2 Americans.

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## Christian Liberty

> I think Bin Laden actually had a political motive for his killings.  He wanted to attack the United States because of our intervention in the Muslim world for the last 60 years.  I think ISIS is just a group of evil monsters who just kill indiscriminately and have no real political motivation for what they're doing.


That's possible.  I don't know enough to comment.

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## Natural Citizen

> Getting rid of Assad would mean that ISIS would take over Syria, which is why it's such an incredibly stupid idea.


Well. It's no accident that the only two places that "ISIS" is interested in is Syria and Iraq. These two countries, the US certainly would be interested in seeing "regime change". Of course, I thought it was interesting that little snip ISIS threw out to Putin. If anyone is paying attention, this is another place where "regime change" is starting to be brought up there and about and I can't find a reason to separate NATO from either phenomenon. Aside from that, I haven't heard much discussion on the notion that someone really wants to keep the oil _in_ the ground in Iraq and out of reach of China in a way that doesn't fiddle with the "market".

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## Jamesiv1

> I think Bin Laden actually had a political motive for his killings.  He wanted to attack the United States because of our intervention in the Muslim world for the last 60 years.  I think ISIS is just a group of evil monsters who just kill indiscriminately and have no real political motivation for what they're doing.


I'm not sure how a couple of evil beheadings stacks up against decades of evil bombings, with collateral damage.... Along with a relentless meddling in other nation's affairs.

Maybe it's just me.

oh.... evil beheadings only if you believe the videos. I think they're fake, which might be the most evil part of the whole equation.

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## Brett85

> I'm not sure how a couple of evil beheadings stacks up against decades of evil bombings, with collateral damage.... Along with a relentless meddling in other nation's affairs.
> 
> Maybe it's just me.
> 
> oh.... evil beheadings only if you believe the videos. I think they're fake, which might be the most evil part of the whole equation.


Like I said above, I think that Al-Quaeda was primarily motivated to attack the U.S and kill people because of past U.S foreign policy decisions.  I think ISIS really doesn't have a political motivation and simply wants to take over the world and convert the world to Islam.  This isn't a group that's simply hiding in caves and plotting attacks against the U.S like Al Quaeda was.  They're actively slaughtering thousands of Christians and other non Muslims in Iraq and Syria.  What exactly does their slaughtering of Christians and other religious minorities have to do with U.S foreign policy?  How did U.S foreign policy cause them to go around beheading children in these countries?  I understand and believe that U.S foreign policy was primarily responsible for why Bin Laden launched attacks against us on 9-11, but this situation is far different since you have a terrorist group with an actual army that's taking over territory in the Middle East.  They represent a threat to the world when they have an ideology of killing all non Muslims and even moderate Muslims.  It shouldn't simply be something the U.S should do alone.  We shouldn't be the policeman of the world.  This is a situation where the entire world needs to join together to eradicate these people.

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## heavenlyboy34

> Like I said above, I think that Al-Quaeda was primarily motivated to attack the U.S and kill people because of past U.S foreign policy decisions.  I think ISIS really doesn't have a political motivation and simply wants to take over the world and convert the world to Islam.  This isn't a group that's simply hiding in caves and plotting attacks against the U.S like Al Quaeda was.  They're actively slaughtering thousands of Christians and other non Muslims in Iraq and Syria.*  What exactly does their slaughtering of Christians and other religious minorities have to do with U.S foreign policy?  How did U.S foreign policy cause them to go around beheading children in these countries?*  I understand and believe that U.S foreign policy was primarily responsible for why Bin Laden launched attacks against us on 9-11, but this situation is far different since you have a terrorist group with an actual army that's taking over territory in the Middle East.  They represent a threat to the world when they have an ideology of killing all non Muslims and even moderate Muslims.  It shouldn't simply be something the U.S should do alone.  We shouldn't be the policeman of the world.  This is a situation where the entire world needs to join together to eradicate these people.


It could have everything to do with it.  Mideastern politics is even more irrational than the American nonsense.

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## Brett85

> It could have everything to do with it.  Mideastern politics is even more irrational than the American nonsense.


Well, I guess U.S foreign policy made the situation far worse by arming and training these people.  But I just mean that I don't think they're actually motivated by U.S foreign policy to go around and slaughter innocent people in Iraq and Syria.

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## Jamesiv1

> Like I said above, I think that Al-Quaeda was primarily motivated to attack the U.S and kill people because of past U.S foreign policy decisions.  I think ISIS really doesn't have a political motivation and simply wants to take over the world and convert the world to Islam.  This isn't a group that's simply hiding in caves and plotting attacks against the U.S like Al Quaeda was.  They're actively slaughtering thousands of Christians and other non Muslims in Iraq and Syria.  What exactly does their slaughtering of Christians and other religious minorities have to do with U.S foreign policy?  How did U.S foreign policy cause them to go around beheading children in these countries?  I understand and believe that U.S foreign policy was primarily responsible for why Bin Laden launched attacks against us on 9-11, but this situation is far different since you have a terrorist group with an actual army that's taking over territory in the Middle East.  They represent a threat to the world when they have an ideology of killing all non Muslims and even moderate Muslims.  It shouldn't simply be something the U.S should do alone.  We shouldn't be the policeman of the world.  This is a situation where the entire world needs to join together to eradicate these people.


I hear what you're saying - good points all. I still say the Middle East nations can handle it.

Maybe if we saw political and/or religious leaders from that part of the world on TV asking for US intervention, I could get on board.  But I'm going to guess most of what you wrote above, and your feelings about the situation come from what is reported in mainstream media, which I believe about as far as I can pick 'em up and throw 'em.

Yes, I know.... vital US interests.... oil, oil.... blah blah blah.  whatever.  We need to change our ways.... but I'm doubtful it's really a possibility at this point. Empires come and go...

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## heavenlyboy34

> Well, I guess U.S foreign policy made the situation far worse by arming and training these people.*  But I just mean that I don't think they're actually motivated by U.S foreign policy to go around and slaughter innocent people in Iraq and Syria.*


People from that region are motivated to do horrible things that are absolutely insane _to Westerners_ precisely because it is perfectly normal _to them_. IDK the all the details of the culture and history of the region, and I doubt you do either.  There are academics and embassadors and such who dedicate their entire careers to mideast politics and still make huge "oopsies".  Trying to understand the muslim POV as a typical Westerner just isn't possible AFAIK (unless you do some sort of serious cultural assimilation or something).

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## Brett85

> People from that region are motivated to do horrible things that are absolutely insane _to Westerners_ precisely because it is perfectly normal _to them_.


It wasn't even normal to someone like Bin Laden, though.  He denounced this group for having tactics that are too extreme, claiming that their tactics would hurt their image and hurt their cause.

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## Jamesiv1

Last week I had an interesting visit with a guy from Jordan. He's mid-twenties, native Jordanian, been in the US for six years. He kept calling the IS guys "mafia" - several times he used that word. Stressed over and over that the 'regular' folks in the region hate the IS guys and would love for the USA to wipe 'em out.

Another very interesting part of the conversation was he said Jordan is about 80% displaced Palestinians from Israel, and they deeply, deeply resent the fact that they were forced out of the land their ancestors have lived for centuries.

Just one side of the story I suppose, but very interesting to hear about it from someone who grew up there - rather than what we hear about it on CNN.

My gut feeling is that we should just get the hell out of there and leave those people alone.

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## otherone

> I think ISIS is just a group of evil monsters who just kill indiscriminately and have no real political motivation for what they're doing.


Why do you choose to believe what the government is telling you?

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## Jamesiv1

I think these maps say a lot about the conflict, as well:

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## Brett85

> Why do you choose to believe what the government is telling you?


I guess I don't believe that everything is just one giant conspiracy theory.

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## TaftFan

> Why do you choose to believe what the government is telling you?


Let's let them speak for themselves.

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## heavenlyboy34

> I guess I don't believe that everything is just one giant conspiracy theory.


Government lies are not necessarily "conspiracies".  But, no offense, you'd be a fool to believe what the regime says if you can't verify it for yourself independently.  Even many of the FFs believed that "The People" were supposed to be a check/balance in this manner.

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## heavenlyboy34

> Let's let them speak for themselves.


tl;dw...but I have to give them credit in one regard.  They claim to fight for God, while Westerners fight for States which they revere as (false) Gods.

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## jmdrake

I may be alone in this.  But I think we as a nation owe something to the Iraqi Christians who's lives we ruined by overthrowing Saddam.  That said, I'm certain our CIC's current course of action will only make things worse for them and us.  Perhaps before we withdrew our troops from Iraq we should have offered to airlift them out to the U.S.?  We brought over Kurds by the boatload.  A bunch of them settled in my part of the country.

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## bunklocoempire

> I know that a lot of people here are probably going to disagree with this, but I thought it would be interesting to post this and see what the counter arguments are.  Feel free to respond.  Thanks.
> 
> http://townhall.com/columnists/steve...-isis-n1889814


_Proverbs 25:17 
Seldom set foot in your neighbor’s house—

too much of you, and they will hate you._

And that's not even talking about busting up his furniture, inconveniencing his wife, or killing his children.

Start there. 

Only when *I* finally and completely leave my neighbor's house, only then can *I* start seriously talking about defending my own house and being justified in doing so if said neighbor comes at me the most effective way *he sees fit*.

_Leaving his house completely_ includes not bribing his family members to conspire against others in the household -or is it wise to meddle?  Is it necessary to meddle?

_Proverbs 26:17 
Like one who grabs a stray dog by the ears

is someone who rushes into a quarrel not their own._

The answers are in the Word.  The answers are based in courage and humbleness *-love* -not fear and false pride.

Which answers are our government pushing?  Are they answers based in courage and humbleness or fear and false pride?

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## jmdrake

Yeah....except in this case your neighbors have been overrun by murderous foreign criminals.  Of course these criminals wouldn't even be a threat if you hadn't started funding street gangs.  (You may or may not have given money to the street gang that busted into your neighbors house, but you certainly funded their buddies.)




> _Proverbs 25:17 
> Seldom set foot in your neighbor’s house—
> 
> too much of you, and they will hate you._
> 
> And that's not even talking about busting up his furniture, inconveniencing his wife, or killing his children.
> 
> Start there. 
> 
> ...

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## otherone

> I guess I don't believe that everything is just one giant conspiracy theory.


Seriously...
We_ know_ the government fabricates threats and obscures facts at times. We _know_ the CIA is involved in international manipulation. How do _you_ choose what to believe?

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## jmdrake

> Why do you choose to believe what the government is telling you?


I believe they are evil monsters too.  The question is how did they just spring up out of nowhere and why did top Iraqi military commanders in the field stand down?

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## enhanced_deficit

*Sudan's President claims CIA and Mossad 'stand behind' Isis and Boko Haram*

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## Sola_Fide

> If we apply this theory to the real facts, would fighting IS be justified still? 
> 
> For example IS didn't merely kill two US citizens, they killed two US citizens *after* being bombed by US jets. So how would a fact like that play out here? 
> 
> Also the fact that after the execution of Foley they gave the ultimatum to stop, or the next would be executed, meaning, it's clearly not a last resort, which puts this line into question, _"Obviously a marauding gang of villainous thugs like ISIS, that is too radical for even Al-Qaeda, is beyond reasoning with."_
> 
> Also as a side note I see a lot of stuff like "IS is even too extreme for Al Qaeda! Egad!", when this is just sensationalism... the rift between Al Qaeda and IS is because Aymen al Zawahiri wanted a local Syrian group to be the Al Qaeda wing in Syria, and keep Baghdadis group (Dawlat 'il-Iraq al-Islamiyye) in Iraq only. Baghdadi disagreed and decided he had enough manpower to fight in both fronts, and he disobeyed Zawahiri's orders, hence... Al Qaeda doesn't like IS, Jahbat Nusra doesn't like IS.


I agree with what you say here.  That is why I like to take the issue of religion out of the realm of politics.

Muhawid, is there anything that ISIS does that is in derogation of Allah?

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## VIDEODROME

In terms of violent stateless criminals, pirates,  or mafia-like organizations, I think Ron Paul often mentioned the tool _Letters of Marque and Reprisal_.  

If there are specific bad actors involved in ISIS we have a legitimate problem with, maybe need to try drafting up such documents and funding a bounty.  Such a document should also include terms of conduct.  Someone seeking the bounty can't just bomb an entire apartment just to get one of our targets.  

Yeah I know that's basically what we've been doing Droning people, so maybe a different tool like this would be a way to avoid using a Hellfire Missile to get just one guy.

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