# Lifestyles & Discussion > Peace Through Religion >  Do You Believe

## pcosmar

This is for those that believe there is a God... A Creator of the Universe and of Earth..

Do you believe that God is Just? or Capricious?
Do you believe that God is Logical? or illogical?
Do you believe that he has a purpose in creation? or just a self gratifying whim?

I ask because I wonder at some of the beliefs that I have heard presented here.

I do believe that God is Just.. I believe Him to be logical and I believe that he has a specific purpose for creation.

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## Christian Liberty

> This is for those that believe there is a God... A Creator of the Universe and of Earth..
> 
> Do you believe that God is Just? or Capricious?
> Do you believe that God is Logical? or illogical?
> Do you believe that he has a purpose in creation? or just a self gratifying whim?
> 
> I ask because I wonder at some of the beliefs that I have heard presented here.
> 
> I do believe that God is Just.. I believe Him to be logical and I believe that he has a specific purpose for creation.


God is just and logical.  But as for his purpose in creation, is not his own glorification enough?  I'm not saying that was the only reason, but I would say its the primary reason.

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## TER

> This is for those that believe there is a God... A Creator of the Universe and of Earth..
> 
> Do you believe that God is Just? or Capricious?
> Do you believe that God is Logical? or illogical?
> Do you believe that he has a purpose in creation? or just a self gratifying whim?
> 
> I ask because I wonder at some of the beliefs that I have heard presented here.
> 
> I do believe that God is Just.. I believe Him to be logical and I believe that he has a specific purpose for creation.


I agree with you.  I would only add to what you said that we should also understand and be cognizant that divine justice and divine logic may not necessarily be the same as human justice and logic.  In fact, often it is not. 

For example, if I found 10 oranges and my brother asked me for some, my human idea of justice might be 'no, go find your own!' Or, if I was more compassionate and just, I might say 'fine, since I freely found them, you take 5 and I'll take 5'. However, as Christ has revealed, the greater way, the way according to the will of God would be 'take eight my brother, and I will have these two, and if you still need more, then take these as well'.  Someone might say that is not fair nor logical for the first brother to do, but again, human justice and logic do not necessarily define God's.

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## pcosmar

> God is just and logical.  But as for his purpose in creation, is not his own glorification enough?  I'm not saying that was the only reason, but I would say its the primary reason.


Oh,, I do believe that he will be Glorified.. I just do not believe it is Self Glorification.

Do you believe that creating a creature (that has no choice in obedience or sin) and them punishing that creature when it does exactly what it is created to do,, is Just?
In other words,, is it just to punish obedience?

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## William Tell

YES!

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## pcosmar

> I agree with you.  I would only add to what you said that we should also understand and be cognizant that divine justice and divine logic may not necessarily be the same as human justice and logic.  In fact, often it is not. 
> 
> For example, if I found 10 oranges and my brother asked me for some, my human idea of justice might be 'no, go find your own!' Or, if I was more compassionate and just, I might say 'fine, since I freely found them, you take 5 and I'll take 5'. However, as Christ has revealed, the greater way, the way according to the will of God would be 'take eight my brother, and I will have these two, and if you still need more, then take these as well'.  Someone might say that is not fair nor logical for the first brother to do, but again, human justice and logic do not necessarily define God's.


I think your example goes more to Love and kindness than Logic..

But we are told that we were created is God's image and likeness,, (and reborn in that in Christ) so would not logic be an attribute that we share,, one given to us at creation?

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## Christian Liberty

> Oh,, I do believe that he will be Glorified.. I just do not believe it is Self Glorification.
> 
> Do you believe that creating a creature (that has no choice in obedience or sin) and them punishing that creature when it does exactly what it is created to do,, is Just?
> In other words,, is it just to punish obedience?


I don't think you (and "you" could be anyone here, not just you in particular) has any right to ask  that question. That's the point of Romans 9.  God does what he does with his creatures.  Who are we to question him?  That said, I don't think that people have no choice.  People do make choices.  But a man always chooses to obey his master, and the unregenerate man's master is sin.  Unless God saves this man, he will always choose sin, as is his nature.

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## TER

> I think your example goes more to Love and kindness than Logic..
> 
> But we are told that we were created is God's image and likeness,, (and reborn in that in Christ) so would not logic be an attribute that we share,, one given to us at creation?


Yes.  Our logical and reasoning minds are gifts given to us, as creatures made in His image and likeness.  It is what differentiates us from the beasts and why we are called His children.   It is a divine attribute for sure.  My point (badly made) is that while were are made in God's image, only Christ alone is truly the image and likeness of the Father.  We fall very short of it.  Thus while we may have the image of God in us with a reasoning and logical mind, we lack the likeness of Him because instead of giving the eight oranges in selfless love, we might negotiate that fifty-fifty is more fair.  Yes, that may be more fair in a court of human law, but not necessarily more just before God above.  That is because all these attributes, reason, justice, etc find their source of meaning and existence in and through love.  There is no logic nor justice in God apart or separated from love.  I am not sure if I am explaining it well...

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## pcosmar

> I don't think you (and "you" could be anyone here, not just you in particular) has any right to ask  that question..


Whether I have a "Right" to ask or not is not the question.

Is it just?
*Is God Just?*

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## heavenlyboy34

> I think your example goes more to Love and kindness than Logic..
> *
> But we are told that we were created is God's image and likeness,, (and reborn in that in Christ) so would not logic be an attribute that we share,, one given to us at creation*?


Being human, we cannot have divine traits.  Divine traits like omniscience, omnipresence, and perfect love are God's alone.  So no, our logic can never rise to that of God's.  We are limited to induction and deduction.  Both are falsifiable-but have their purposes. (IOW, our capacity for reasoning works much like God's, but cannot be perfect like God's is)

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## TER

> Oh,, I do believe that he will be Glorified.. I just do not believe it is Self Glorification.
> 
> Do you believe that creating a creature (that has no choice in obedience or sin) and them punishing that creature when it does exactly what it is created to do,, is Just?
> In other words,, is it just to punish obedience?


No, it is not just for a Creator to punish a creature for the bad they were forced to do.  Not only is it not just in terms of divine and perfect justice, but in regards to human justice or even that of the beasts.

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## Christian Liberty

> Whether I have a "Right" to ask or not is not the question.
> 
> Is it just?
> *Is God Just?*


Yes.  And he would be just even if he caused our sins.  Who are you to talk back to him?  That is the answer to the question.  Please reread Romans 9.

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## Christian Liberty

> No, it is not just for a Creator to punish a creature for the bad they were forced to do.  Not only is it not just in terms of divine and perfect justice, but in regards to human justice or even that of the beasts.


By what standard?  The standard used in Romans 9:19-22?  Or some other standard?

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## pcosmar

> Yes.  Or logical and reasoning minds are gifts given to us, as creatures made in His image and likeness.  It is what differentiates us from the beasts and why we are called His children.   It is a divine attribute for sure.  My point (badly made) is that while were are made in God's image, only Christ alone is truly the image and likeness of the Father.  We fall very short of it.  Thus while we may have the image of God in use with a reasoning and logical mind, we lack the likeness of Him because instead of giving the eight oranges in selfless love, we might negotiate that fifty-fifty is more fair.  Yes, that may be more fair in a court of human law, but not necessarily more just before God above.  That is because all these attributes, reason, justice, etc find their source of meaning and existence in and through love.  There is no logic nor justice in God apart or separated from love.  I am not sure if I am explaining it well...


All true,, We see through a glass darkly..
But we are also gifted with these divine attributes.. A mind that can think and reason. Our Creative abilities. and even basic human love,, these are all what he made us when he breathed a part of Himself into us.



> Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow. *"Come now, and let us reason together,"* Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool. "If you consent and obey, You will eat the best of the land;…

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## TER

> Being human, we cannot have divine traits.  Divine traits like omniscience, omnipresence, and perfect love are God's alone.  So no, our logic can never rise to that of God's.  We are limited to induction and deduction.  Both are falsifiable-but have their purposes.


HB, I would make a caveat though.  While we cannot share, have, or experience the essence of God, we can most certainly share in His divine energies by the Holy Spirit and obtain certain divine traits.  The Scriptures and the hagiography of the Church are filled with instances where mere men have been given divine power by the grace of God.

Of course, these are not to the perfection of God Who is the source of these, for if it comes external from us to lift us up then by definition it is greater then us.  But attributes such as foreknowledge, prophecy, miracle working, even moving mountains have occurred by the prayers of the saints.

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## TER

> By what standard?  The standard used in Romans 9:19-22?  Or some other standard?



By the teachings of the Church which are the pillar and foundation of truth, IOW, the biblical reference for what the standard is.

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## heavenlyboy34

> HB, I would make a caveat though.  While we cannot share, have, or experience the essence of God, we can most certainly share in His divine energies by the Holy Spirit and obtain certain divine traits.  The Scriptures and the hagiography of the Church are filled with instances where mere men have been given divine power by the grace of God.
> 
> Of course, these are not to the perfection of a God Who is the source of these, for if it comes external from us to lift us up then by definition it is greater then us.  But attributes such as foreknowledge, prophecy, miracle working, even moving mountains have occurred by the prayers of the saints.


Yes, I agree-thanks for clarifying.  ~hugs~  IMO, it's more accurate to say that the saints who have received divine gifts _shared_ in the divine rather than being divine themselves.

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## pcosmar

> Yes.  And he would be just even if he caused our sins.  *Who are you to talk back to him?*





> Present your case," the LORD says. "Bring forward your strong arguments,"





> Review the past for me, let us argue the matter together; state the case for your innocence.



Who am I? I am nothing of myself.. I am a Son in Christ. A Son of the living God.

I ask my Father and my friend.. I ask him many things,,
and when I listen,, he answers me.




> "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.…

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## TER

> Yes, I agree-thanks for clarifying.  ~hugs~  IMO, it's more accurate to say that the saints who have received divine gifts _shared_ in the divine rather than being divine themselves.


Exactly!  They remain human, but through Christ and His Holy Spirit in them Who proceeds from the Father, they share in the divinity of God as adopted sons of God and co-heirs of the Kingdom of Heaven!

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## pcosmar

> Exactly!  They remain human, but through Christ and His Holy Spirit in them which proceed from the Father, they share in the divinity of God as adopted sons of God and co-heirs of the Kingdom of Heaven!


Kings and Priests.




> And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,* And hath made us kings and priests u*nto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen


Always remember who you are.

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## Sola_Fide

> This is for those that believe there is a God... A Creator of the Universe and of Earth..
> 
> Do you believe that God is Just? or Capricious?
> Do you believe that God is Logical? or illogical?
> Do you believe that he has a purpose in creation? or just a self gratifying whim?
> 
> I ask because I wonder at some of the beliefs that I have heard presented here.
> 
> I do believe that God is Just.. I believe Him to be logical and I believe that he has a specific purpose for creation.



Yes God is just (Romans 8 and 9).  Yes God is logical (John 1).  Yes God has a purpose for everything in creation (Ephesians 1 and 2).

The idol of Roman Catholicism/Arminianism is unjust,  illogical,  and by definition doesn't have a specific purpose for creation.

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## Brett85

> I don't think you (and "you" could be anyone here, not just you in particular) has any right to ask  that question. That's the point of Romans 9.


I've come to the conclusion that Romans 9 must be the only chapter in your entire Bible.

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## pcosmar

> Yes God is just (Romans 8 and 9).  Yes God is logical (John 1).  Yes God has a purpose for everything in creation (Ephesians 1 and 2).
> 
> The idol of Roman Catholicism/Arminianism is unjust,  illogical,  and by definition doesn't have a specific purpose for creation.


I worship no Idol.
 I am born of God,, The God of Job, and of Abraham. The God of David the King of who's line Christ was born.

And I reject the malevolent and unjust creature that you present here.

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## pcosmar

> I've come to the conclusion that Romans 9 must be the only chapter in your entire Bible.


Wildly distorted and out of context.. and often repeated as such.

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## Sola_Fide

> I worship no Idol.
>  I am born of God,, The God of Job, and of Abraham. The God of David the King of who's line Christ was born.
> 
> And I reject the malevolent and unjust creature that you present here.


It doesn't matter that you reject the God of the Bible.  You keep saying that over and over again,  but what does your objection mean in the face of the Creator?  You are a pot, and you cannot turn to the Potter and question Him.

If you believe that Jesus died for every man (and therefore saved no one with His sacrifice) then you don't believe in the God of the Bible, so you don't belong to Him.  You believe in the traditions of men and you worship an idol.  Also, if you object with the same objection that Paul specifically condemns in Romans 9, you have a real problem.

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## heavenlyboy34

Not to derail the thread, but does anyone have a short answer as to why S_F has such irrational hatred and contempt for the RCC?  (I just noticed he mentioned the RCC when pete quoted him...I have sola on ignore)

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## Brett85

> It doesn't matter that you reject the God of the Bible.  You keep saying that over and over again,  but what does your objection mean in the face of the Creator?  You are a pot, and you cannot turn to the Potter and question Him.
> 
> If you believe that Jesus died for every man (and therefore saved no one with His sacrifice) then you don't believe in the God of the Bible, so you don't belong to Him.  You believe in the traditions of men and you worship an idol.  Also, if you object with the same objection that Paul specifically condemns in Romans 9, you have a real problem.


You're such a kind and pleasant person.

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## pcosmar

> You are a pot, and you cannot turn to the Potter and question Him.


I am not a Pot. and yes I can question him.. And he is not afraid to answer.

you quote those verses like they are statements,,when they are actually questions,, and they were an answer to those that thought they were "elect" and rejected the message to the Gentiles.

So drop the dumb Dung..Logic is also an attribute of God,, and you make him to be illogical.

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## Sola_Fide

> Not to derail the thread, but does anyone have a short answer as to why S_F has such irrational hatred and contempt for the RCC?  (I just noticed he mentioned the RCC when pete quoted him...I have sola on ignore)


When did HB become so close minded to debate, to where he has to put people on ignore? 

That is an indication of his fear of the truth.

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## Sola_Fide

> I am not a Pot. and yes I can question him.. And he is not afraid to answer.
> 
> you quote those verses like they are statements,,when they are actually questions,, and they were an answer to those that thought they were "elect" and rejected the message to the Gentiles.
> 
> So drop the dumb Dung..Logic is also an attribute of God,, and you make him to be illogical.


Nope.  You are a pot, and you can't question the Potter:




> *  Romans 9:19-21
> 
> One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”
> 
> But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it,‘Why did you make me like this?’”
> 
> Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
> 
> *

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## heavenlyboy34

> I am not a Pot. and yes I can question him.. And he is not afraid to answer.
> 
> you quote those verses like they are statements,,when they are actually questions,, and they were an answer to those that thought they were "elect" and rejected the message to the Gentiles.
> 
> So drop the dumb Dung..Logic is also an attribute of God,, *and you make him to be illogical*.


I'm still studying to figure out why, but this seems to be common among all the Reformed denominations.

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## pcosmar

> Not to derail the thread, but does anyone have a short answer as to why S_F has such irrational hatred and contempt for the RCC?  (I just noticed he mentioned the RCC when pete quoted him...I have sola on ignore)


Not sure,, I have my own disagreements with Roman Catholicism,, With both doctrine and organization. But not with the people.

Despite error they have been responsible for spreading the Gospel around the world. My home town was founded by such very long ago.

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## VIDEODROME

Some day someone has to start a Sola Fide Romans9 drinking game.

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## pcosmar

> “Now therefore fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord.  And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord,* choose this day whom you will serve*, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”





> I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: *therefore choose life,* that both thou and thy seed may live:





> Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.





> If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.





> Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.





> "I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God.





> but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.





> For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.


I do not take one or two verses,, and create a doctrine.. But the whole book is filled with God calling for men to choose. to Believe.

It is a necessary part.. and requires the Free Will Choice.




> Who is it that overcomes the world?* Only the one who believes* that Jesus is the Son of God.

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## heavenlyboy34

> Some day someone has to start a Sola Fide Romans9 drinking game.


lolz

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## PierzStyx

> God is just and logical.  But as for his purpose in creation, is not his own glorification enough?  I'm not saying that was the only reason, but I would say its the primary reason.


Sounds pretty narcissistic. Why would an Almighty God who is full of all glory, laud, and power already even have a desire to create this world? Is He lacking in some basic thing that only more beings glorifying Him will supply? And if that is the case, why not create more angels to do that job? To go through the whole purpose of creation just to create being to worship Him when He could just create innumerable angels to do the same job, a job they in perfect could do better anyway, seems silly. Especially when you consider that part of Creation's existence is suffering and then damnation eternally. Why create beings who you know are only going to be doomed to be tortured forever when you could create sinless perfect beings who can worship you without suffering and then you wouldn't have to condemn anyone to suffer. It makes no sense. God doesn't need your glorification. He gains nothing by this worldly work of Creation. It does not glorify Him anymore to create and it doesn't glorify Him any less not to create. To suggest that the purpose of creation is to glorify God is nonsense.

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## PierzStyx

> Some day someone has to start a Sola Fide Romans9 drinking game.


I do believe you'd die of alcohol poisoning pretty quickly.

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## PierzStyx

> I don't think you (and "you" could be anyone here, not just you in particular) has any right to ask  that question. That's the point of Romans 9.  God does what he does with his creatures.  Who are we to question him?  That said, I don't think that people have no choice.  People do make choices.  But a man always chooses to obey his master, and the unregenerate man's master is sin.  Unless God saves this man, he will always choose sin, as is his nature.


I don't think you (and "you" could be anyone here, not just you in particular) has any right to ask  that question. That's the point of Romans 9.  *The State* does what he does with *its citizens*.  Who are we to question *the State*?  That said, I don't think that people have no choice.  People do make choices.  But a man always chooses to obey his master, *the State*, and the unregenerate man's master is *the sin of disobedience to the State*.  Unless *the State tells us how to act, think, dress, eat, and be good*, *we* will always choose sin, as is his nature.

All fun aside, a being with logic forbidden to use that logic makes no sense. Why would God give man logic if He didn't expect us to use it? What a silly argument. And the point of Romans 9 is to be read along with Romans 8, and 10 while remembering Paul wrote to Roman Christians. Take something out of context and it can mean anything you want it to mean.

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## PierzStyx

> Yes.  Our logical and reasoning minds are gifts given to us, as creatures made in His image and likeness.  It is what differentiates us from the beasts and why we are called His children.   It is a divine attribute for sure.  My point (badly made) is that while were are made in God's image, only Christ alone is truly the image and likeness of the Father.  We fall very short of it.  Thus while we may have the image of God in us with a reasoning and logical mind, we lack the likeness of Him because instead of giving the eight oranges in selfless love, we might negotiate that fifty-fifty is more fair.  Yes, that may be more fair in a court of human law, but not necessarily more just before God above.  That is because all these attributes, reason, justice, etc find their source of meaning and existence in and through love.  There is no logic nor justice in God apart or separated from love.  I am not sure if I am explaining it well...


I think I understand you. Though I would add that we sometimes forget that God wants us to love ourselves just as much as we love our fellow man. "Love thy neighbor _as thyself._" Seems to me that going 50/50 is not less loving and less in keeping with God's commands than splitting it 80/20. God expects us to care for ourselves as well.

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## PierzStyx

> Yes.  And he would be just even if he caused our sins.  Who are you to talk back to him?  That is the answer to the question.  Please reread Romans 9.


Please look up the word "justice" because I'm pretty sure you don't know what it means. You might argue that God can do whatever He wants to us and then punish us because we did His will because He is all powerful. But you cannot argue such an act is _just_.

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## Terry1

> Being human, we cannot have divine traits.  Divine traits like omniscience, omnipresence, and perfect love are God's alone.  So no, our logic can never rise to that of God's.  We are limited to induction and deduction.  Both are falsifiable-but have their purposes. (IOW, our capacity for reasoning works much like God's, but cannot be perfect like God's is)



I haven't finished reading all the posts in this thread yet, but so far your explanation comes very close to what I would say.  I've always said that God is a common sense God, but there's two kinds of common sense and logic.  One is spiritual and the other is carnal.  

Spiritual common sense logic means that there's no need to redefine what's good, bad, normal, loving or free.  We understand the spiritual order of things because we understand God's morality and what He prefers as an absolute.

Carnal common sense logic says that there are no absolutes and that everything is subject to question and redefinition dictated by the flow of human knowledge and experience.  This is all based upon mankind's idea of morality.

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## Terry1

> Yes God is just (Romans 8 and 9).  Yes God is logical (John 1).  Yes God has a purpose for everything in creation (Ephesians 1 and 2).
> 
> The idol of Roman Catholicism/Arminianism is unjust,  illogical,  and by definition doesn't have a specific purpose for creation.


This kind of mindset simply comes from years of bad teaching and indoctrination, which also may include spiritual oppression as well.  Do you really think that when God looks upon his children that love and worship Him imperfectly because in their human state they can do that no other way that He condemns them for their Arminianism or Catholicism?  

God doesn't care what you choose to practice or not to show your love for Him.  God told you that the only way to show your love for Him was by loving others just the same as you would Him.  Other people are visible--tangible--they need our help, love, mercy forgiveness just the same as we need God's.  God said--whatever we do unto others, we also do unto Him.  So this is the key to understanding how to love God with all of your heart, mind and soul is by loving those around you just the same.

You really need to stop focusing on Romans 9 and focus more on *Romans 14: 

1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
*

Paul is telling you here that no matter what we do in practice towards the worship and love of God is irrelevant in light of the reason we do them and that is our love for God--that is what God sees and not our imperfect knowledge and wisdom as to *how to love God*.  

Sola--you must see that it is what we do and say in this life to others that is the key to our salvation.  We are saved by our "works of faith"--this is absolutely essential to our calling in the Lord--our journey in Faith must be followed with physical and visible evidence of that same faith in Jesus Christ by doing what we are called to do.  These are not dead works--they are works of faith and the only path to salvation and abiding in Christ that allows us to remain in the state of Elect.

Without these physical and visible works of faith--it's impossible to love others as we love God because then no one is doing the work of Christ that we are called to do.  The hungry are not being fed--the sick are not being healed--there's no mercy, love or forgiveness for one another.  The widows are not being comforted, the prisoners are not being set free.  

God works *through us*--we are His hands, arms legs and feet who do the work here on earth that He has called us to do.  We all have different calling's in this life and the only way to salvation is to spiritually hear what God is telling us to do through the Holy Spirit and then we do what we're being called to do.  This is what God loves is our obedience to the faith and the two greatest commandment of God that hang on ALL of the Law and the Prophets.

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## Christian Liberty

> I've come to the conclusion that Romans 9 must be the only chapter in your entire Bible.


No, but he's making an objection that is answered by Romans 9.  You'll notice that I didn't even bring up predestination in this thread, pcosmar did.  (Note that I don't have a problem with this, I'm just saying that I didn't bring it up.)

Can you comment on the text rather than just falsely accusing me of denying the inspiration of ALL of scripture?

Ephesians 1, 1 Corinthians 1, Romans 8, John 6, John 10, Isaiah 10, and Isaiah 46 all teach predestination as well.  Its not just Romans 9.  But Romans 9 specifically answers the objections to it, hence why I often use it.  When someone tells me I put Paul above Christ, I quote John 6 or John 10 to silence the accusation.




> You're such a kind and pleasant person.


I'm not saying I agree with him, but I don't see what was so "mean" about what he said.  This is a great example of the distinction that needs to be made between "offensive" comments and "insults."  Sola's comment was offensive to a lot of people, but it was a doctrinal statement, not an insult or personal attack.  See the difference?

Now I really want to find out if that was the comment that got Sola banned.  I'm probably not going to post here for awhile if that's the case.

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## pcosmar

> No, but he's making an objection that is answered by Romans 9.  You'll notice that I didn't even bring up predestination in this thread, pcosmar did.  (Note that I don't have a problem with this, I'm just saying that I didn't bring it up.)


The doctrine of predestination is another question,, and though related, was not the focus of this thread.

I believe that the very words used lose something in translation,, or perhaps the truth of it can not be put into human tongue. Regardless of why,, i believe that doctrine to be badly misunderstood.

There is a huge difference between "God* can do* such" and "God *Does do* such".

God is not unjust. He is not Illogical.

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## moostraks

He could do such but that He does not because we would find it contrary to that which He is...Love. I know certain people feel they are operating within some framework of logic within their own mind, but when you fashion your beliefs in such a way that words must be redefined or ignored, well that leaves those who disagree to investigate the motive of those who operate as such. Romans 9 was not meant to be used as a tool to silence legitimate analysis of belief and faith. It is a knee jerk response and those so erroneously using it to their own benefit seem incapable of seeing how they are applying it to cover their personal interpretation which is subject to them being fallible like the rest of us.

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## Snew

> I don't think you (and "you" could be anyone here, not just you in particular) has any right to ask  that question. That's the point of Romans 9.  *The State* does what he does with *its citizens*.  Who are we to question *the State*?  That said, I don't think that people have no choice.  People do make choices.  But a man always chooses to obey his master, *the State*, and the unregenerate man's master is *the sin of disobedience to the State*.  Unless *the State tells us how to act, think, dress, eat, and be good*, *we* will always choose sin, as is his nature.
> 
> All fun aside, a being with logic forbidden to use that logic makes no sense. Why would God give man logic if He didn't expect us to use it? What a silly argument. And the point of Romans 9 is to be read along with Romans 8, and 10 while remembering Paul wrote to Roman Christians. Take something out of context and it can mean anything you want it to mean.


I cannot +rep this enough.

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## JohnGalt1225

I'm a Germanic Heathen.  I follow the traditional pre-Christian European religion.  Some call it Asatru or Odinism.  It's a polytheistic religion.  I was born and raised a Christian but it never suited me.  I find that Heathenry compliments my libertarianism very well.  It's very de-centralized and opposed to concentrated religious power.

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## amy31416

I'm most closely aligned to Eastern Orthodox Catholicism/Lutheranism based on my upbringing, and I'm rather skeptical about God.

Am I the only one who's read the Old Testament and thought that the God they were blathering on about was actually Satan?

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## Crashland

> I'm most closely aligned to Eastern Orthodox Catholicism/Lutheranism based on my upbringing, and I'm rather skeptical about God.
> 
> Am I the only one who's read the Old Testament and thought that the God they were blathering on about was actually Satan?


You aren't the only one. For example...

Deuteronomy 20:10-17



> When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy themthe Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusitesas the Lord your God has commanded you.


Sounds more like a commandment from Satan than from God. Just imagine if America's foreign policy was like the ancient Jews' true God-based foreign policy.

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## heavenlyboy34

> I'm most closely aligned to Eastern Orthodox Catholicism/Lutheranism based on my upbringing, and I'm rather skeptical about God.
> 
> Am I the only one who's read the Old Testament and thought that the God they were blathering on about was actually Satan?


I find that interesting as well.  I need to know more about the context before I can comment intelligently on this.  The Pentateuch in particular was written in a pretty dire, dark time in Jewish history.  The literature tends to reflect this _zeitgeist_.  Someone good with formal analysis, history, and ancient literature could probably explain it for us.  If they're reading, plz help, thnx. ~hugz~

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## amy31416

> You aren't the only one. For example...
> 
> Deuteronomy 20:10-17
> 
> 
> Sounds more like a commandment from Satan than from God. Just imagine if America's foreign policy was like the ancient Jews' true God-based foreign policy.


America's foreign policy ain't too far off from that. 

I was also thinking of the incest, the genocide (which included details like splaying open a pregnant woman's womb), rape, and creepy ways to murder/torture people. Despite the seemingly insane book of Revelation--I'd take the New Testament over the Old any day.

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## Crashland

> America's foreign policy ain't too far off from that. 
> 
> I was also thinking of the incest, the genocide (which included details like splaying open a pregnant woman's womb), rape, and creepy ways to murder/torture people. Despite the seemingly insane book of Revelation--I'd take the New Testament over the Old any day.


I agree, although be wary of the natural inclination to allow your evaluation of the truth or non-truth of a claim to be affected by the degree to which you prefer it or wish for it to be true. I don't particularly like the God as described in either testament, but if I become convinced that it is likely to be true I shouldn't try to disbelieve it on account of that. And vice versa

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## Muwahid

God is explained in superlatives. He's not just, he's the just. This necessitates that "just" (morality) is static and will not change. 

The concept of God is illogical due to it being a supernatural force, but if God created everything, then everything God does is by definition logical. Logic, and rationality itself is made by God. 

Purpose in creation is a bit more complicated. God does not need us, but we were given a chance to be in the Grace of God, I often hear people say "why does God need to be worshipped" as if God is just, an egotistical anthropomorphic being-- in reality worshipping is for us, not God, it's like free tickets into paradise. So our creation was a gift to us. The question of why will never be able to be answered fully, I believe its a concept that far exceeds our own capacity, to understand the rationale of God is not an easy task, I mean people study psychology to *try* to understand the rationale of our own species (and we're just scratching the surface) so now make that infinitely more removed. God is not a human and does not share our psychological makeup. So to ask why he did this or that, is a rather, complex question, but valid none the less.

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## pcosmar

> God is not a human and does not share our psychological makeup. So to ask why he did this or that, is a rather, complex question, but valid none the less.


He does not share our psychological makeup.. but we share His.. and more so the closer we get to Him..

he gave us a part of his nature,, We were created in His image. He was not made in our likeness.

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