# Lifestyles & Discussion > Peace Through Religion >  Inner Light

## moostraks

> "Briefly stated, the principle of the Inner Light is this:  In every human soul there is implanted a certain element of God's own spirit and divine energy.  The element, known to the early Friends as "that of God in everyone," or the "seed," or the "seed of Christ," or the "seed of Light," means to them in the words of John "the Light that enlighteneth every man who comes into the world."  
> 
>   The Quakers believe that no first hand knowledge of God is possible except through that which is experienced, or inwardly revealed to the individual human being through the working of God's quickening spirit.  So George Fox, in his Journal, is repeatedly shown commending troubled questioners to the "teacher within."  In his long, anxious search for eternal life and peace, he found no help until he learned to listen to the inner voice... 
> 
> Broadly speaking, the office of the Inner Light is twofold.  First, it discerns between good and evil, revealing the presence of both in human beings and, through its guidance, offers the alternative of choice.  Second, it opens to human consciousness the unity of all human beings. 
> 
> The Quakers believe that the potentialities of evil as well as good are latent in every one.  But Quakers do not share the Calvinistic conception of a chasm separating God and humans...
> 
> The Quaker sense of God's immediate presence is the groundwork for a consciousness of human unity.  Believing that all people partake in some measure of divine indwelling, the Friends are able to believe that where goodness is, there is God. 
> ...


http://www2.gol.com/users/quakers/inner_light.htm

Thought I would share something uplifting to those who might appreciate it. I often look to historic positions to check my gut on the issues as a solitary of sorts right now. However, I believe that He truly is within every one of us and it is we who let the noise and our own ego misdirect our energies. Peace to each one on their path~~~

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## TER

Of all the Protestant faiths which I have learned about, the Quakers seem to me the closest to the spirit of Orthodoxy.  Thank you moostraks!   I think in time they will come back home to the Orthodox Church which their forefathers in the faith centuries ago all belonged to, but in the meanwhile I believe many within that faith are approaching Christ.

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## moostraks

> Of all the Protestant faiths which I have learned about, the Quakers seem to me the closest to the spirit of Orthodoxy.  Thank you moostraks!   I think in time they will come back home to the Orthodox Church which their forefathers in the faith centuries ago all belonged to, but in the meanwhile I believe many within that faith are approaching Christ.


 The conservative orthodox Quakers have many similarities as I was studying different literature from both groups. I think Quakers seem to prove the truth of listening to the inner light draws one closer to the Creator as they came so close to being in agreement with the historic position of the Church. I think the idea of listening to the inner voice needs to be closely guarded though by having a mature mentor or preferably more so that one is listening to the Spirit rather than their own ego. I would love to attend an unprogrammed meeting, being in Ohio where some great Conservative meetings are, but wonder how odd it would be meditating with others in silence. Would love to hear from others who might have this as their faith path and have attended these meetings.

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## Cabal



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## Terry1

> Of all the Protestant faiths which I have learned about, the Quakers seem to me the closest to the spirit of Orthodoxy.  Thank you moostraks!   I think in time they will come back home to the Orthodox Church which their forefathers in the faith centuries ago all belonged to, but in the meanwhile I believe many within that faith are approaching Christ.


I believe you're absolutely correct TER, which has enlightened me greatly just these past few months!  My genetic roots are in the Greek Orthodox Church seeing is that my grandfather came from the island of Tinos, Greece and my Mother was also Greek Orthodox.  I have done a lot of study in this area myself.

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## TER

The 'Inner Light' is the gift given to all men from God, and many traditions and religions have experienced it.  It is the image of the divine and the life power of the soul, and usually not able to be perceived in the corrupted states we are in unless through the ascetic practices of fasting, praying, and purification of the nous.  It is not to be confused with the Uncreated Light (the Light seen in the Transfiguratin of Christ which is not natural to man but the uncreated energy of the Holy Spirit).

  Endeavering in experiencing such vision, even with regards to the Inner Light of our own nature, is something that requires guidance by an experienced spiritual father because such experiences are powerful and can be dangerous, for it can often times to pride and even spiritual corruption.  As St. Paul said, the devil himself can come guised as an angel of light.  If you do decide to delve further into such mystagogy, I strongly recommend you visit an Orthodox monastery and speak to a spiritual confessor and guide.  This is not to say that there are not not shades of truth or you will gain no profit from Quakerism, only that I do not know enough about it to make any kind of recommendation.

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## TER

> I believe you're absolutely correct TER, which has enlightened me greatly just these past few months!  My genetic roots are in the Greek Orthodox Church seeing is that my grandfather came from the island of Tinos, Greece and my Mother was also Greek Orthodox.  I have done a lot of study in this area myself.


Tinos is one of the holiest islands in Greece!  I made a pilgrimage there a few years back!    What wonderful news to hear about your roots!  Perhaps we are cousins.  

Either way, if you are a Christian, your spiritual roots are in Greece as they are in Jerusalem, and the forefathers of all Christians root from the Orthodox Church.

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## Nang

> The 'Inner Light' is the gift given to all men from God, and many traditions and religions have experienced it.


It is mysticism.

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## TER

> It is mysticism.


Thank you, indeed it is!  It is the mystagogy of the Holy Spirit working mysteriously in creation!  Glory to God for all things!

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## Nang

> Thank you, indeed it is!  It is the mystagogy of the Holy Spirit working mysteriously in creation!  Glory to God for all things!



Christianity is not mysticism.  And the Holy Spirit does not work within the evils of creation.  (e.g. corruption, death, wickedness, etc.)

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## Terry1

> Tinos is one of the holiest islands in Greece!  I made a pilgrimage there a few years back!    What wonderful news to hear about your roots!  Perhaps we are cousins.  
> 
> Either way, if you are a Christian, your spiritual roots are in Greece as they are in Jerusalem, and the forefathers of all Christians root from the Orthodox Church.


My Grandfathers name was Angelo Patniotes, a very devout Greek Orthodox as well as my Mother who later left the faith.  I have many relatives in Greece still, but I can't speak the language.  I've longed to go back to Tinos to see some of them.  Tinos is absolutely beautiful as well as the church there.

Every year I attend the celebration of the Greek Orthodox church fair where we live now--it's a beautiful experience.

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## TER

> Christianity is not mysticism.  And the Holy Spirit does not work within the evils of creation.  (e.g. corruption, death, wickedness, etc.)


That is what you may believe, but the very reason why Christ said He became incarnate was so that the Holy Spirit might enter into.  Why?  So that we might be transfigured and ascend as Christ did Who is the Firstfruits of the new creation which awaits us.

This rejection of the mystagogy of the Holy Spirit within creation is a relatively new concept in Christian thought and part of what is meant when people say that the Reformer 'threw out the baby with the bath water'.  If you wish to believe against what your Christian forefathers did, you are free to.  I will do otherwise.  Either way, may God bless you all the days of your life!

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## TER

> My Grandfathers name was Angelo Patniotes, a very devout Greek Orthodox as well as my Mother who later left the faith.  I have many relatives in Greece still, but I can't speak the language.  I've longed to go back to Tinos to see some of them.  Tinos is absolutely beautiful as well as the church there.
> 
> Every year I attend the celebration of the Greek Orthodox church fair where we live now--it's a beautiful experience.


You should attend a Holy Week service as well!  

When you decide to go to Tinos, let me know and we can arrainge to meet there.  My wife is from the island of Andros which is the neighboring island and we have a house by the water where we can see Tinos.  We can take a boat ride there together!

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## Nang

> That is what you may believe, but the very reason why Christ said He became incarnate was so that the Holy Spirit might enter into.  Why?  So that we might be transfigured and ascend as Christ did Who is the Firstfruits of the new creation which awaits us.


Jesus Christ incarnated to redeem His people from their sins.  Regeneration to new life through His Holy Spirit, is not mysticism and it is not universal.

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## VIDEODROME

This is an interesting thread to me. I consider myself a Skeptic now, but I still see value in 'spiritual' experience which to me includes Meditation Practice.  I think Meditation is a very valuable tool regardless of your beliefs.  It does not necessarily require chanting mantras or sitting in an uncomfortable posture either.  It can be done just sitting comfortably in a quiet space.  

I also think Mindfulness Meditation can help you be much less susceptible to stress or emotional impulses from anger or desire.

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## TER

> Jesus Christ incarnated to redeem His people from their sins.  Regeneration to new life through His Holy Spirit, is not mysticism and it is not universal.


Yes, I understand that Christ has restored our broken nature by uniting His divine nature with our created human nature, and by doing so sinlessly and destroying death by His sinless life, creating the conditions whereby His Holy Spirit might enter into creation and sanctify it, allowing us to grow in the "in the measure and stature of the likeness of Christ".  This is what it means to "partake in the divine nature".  This is EXACTLY why Christ came and He said so Himself, saying it would be _advantageous_ for us if He died and went away so that He might send us the very Holy Spirit of God.  

Unfortunately, your religious tradition has thrown that away in order to redesign a completely new belief system.  But it is never too late to come to the truth!  Glory to God above!

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## Terry1

> You should attend a Holy Week service as well!  
> 
> When you decide to go to Tinos, let me know and we can arrainge to meet there.  My wife is from the island of Andros which is the neighboring island and we have a house by the water where we can see Tinos.  We can take a boat ride there together!


OH TER---I envy you--LOL  I have longed to see the home of my Grandparents.  I have never had the opportunity to go there.  How fortunate you are to be able to do this.  Maybe I will try to arrange something on my next vacation.  There's so much Biblical history there too.  I grew up on Greek food and I'm still a pretty good cook when it comes to Greek cuisine, my husband loves my Pasteli and Lazarakia.

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## TER

> OH TER---I envy you--LOL  I have longed to see the home of my Grandparents.  I have never had the opportunity to go there.  How fortunate you are to be able to do this.  Maybe I will try to arrange something on my next vacation.  There's so much Biblical history there too.  I grew up on Greek food and I'm still a pretty good cook when it comes to Greek cuisine, my husband loves my Pasteli and Lazarakia.


Every island is filled with history and stories of miracles dating back centuries and centuries.  In fact, for the Orthodox Church, the holiest place on earth (outside of Jerusalem of course) is Mount Athos which is in Greece and is the oldest continous republic (as well as monastery) in the world.  

If you want to go, now would be a great time because they recently reduced the hotel rates (because of the harsh economic conditions) by about 30% and a typical hotel now is about 40-50 dollars a night.  And outside of Athens, there is no fear of crime and such.

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## Terry1

> Every island is filled with history and stories of miracles dating back centuries and centuries.  In fact, for the Orthodox Church, the holiest place on earth (outside of Jerusalem of course) is Mount Athos which is in Greece and is the oldest continous republic (as well as monastery) in the world.  
> 
> If you want to go, now would be a great time because they recently reduced the hotel rates (because of the harsh economic conditions) by about 30% and a typical hotel now is about 40-50 dollars a night.  And outside of Athens, there is no fear of crime and such.


It will have to be in the summer when I go, but this would be a wonderful vacation for both me and my husband.  I know the area where my Grandparents lived--it's so beautiful, that me and my sister both wondered why they immigrated here.  But my Grandfather owned several Greek restaurants here in the states along with his brother and sister who both immigrated here together.  They were very successful and is why I grew up on Greek food--LOL

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## Nang

> This is an interesting thread to me. I consider myself a Skeptic now, but I still see value in 'spiritual' experience which to me includes Meditation Practice.  I think Meditation is a very valuable tool regardless of your beliefs.  It does not necessarily require chanting mantras or sitting in an uncomfortable posture either.  It can be done just sitting comfortably in a quiet space.  
> 
> I also think Mindfulness Meditation can help you be much less susceptible to stress or emotional impulses from anger or desire.


I reply, not to be contrary, but to give warning. . .

Mindless meditation can be very dangerous, for it opens the mind to spirits that are not always good.

Meditation should be focused on Holy Scripture, ALONE.

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## TER

> It will have to be in the summer when I go, but this would be a wonderful vacation for both me and my husband.  I know the area where my Grandparents lived--it's so beautiful, that me and my sister both wondered why they immigrated here.  But my Grandfather owned several Greek restaurants here in the states along with his brother and sister who both immigrated here together.  They were very successful and is why I grew up on Greek food--LOL


Sept. is the best time to go if you can.   

I think we officially derailed moostraks thread!  LOL  Sorry moostraks!

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## Terry1

> Sept. is the best time to go if you can.   
> 
> I think we officially derailed moostraks thread!  LOL  Sorry moostraks!


Yeah, sorry moostraks---maybe we'll wait until Sept then, that's a good time for us too, thanks.

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## TER

> I reply, not to be contrary, but to give warning. . .
> 
> Mindless meditation can be very dangerous, for it opens the mind to spirits that are not always good.
> 
> Meditation should be focused on Holy Scripture, ALONE.


Videodrome, I would echo what Nang has written above.  I would be careful to get any kind of advice on meditation by anyone on the internet, and this of course includes from me, Nang, or anyone else here in RPF.  This is better to be done under the supervision of an experienced spiritual guide/confessor.  As Nang said, it can open the mind to spirits that are not always good.

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## moostraks

> Christianity is not mysticism.  And the Holy Spirit does not work within the evils of creation.  (e.g. corruption, death, wickedness, etc.)


 Sorry you feel this way. I couldn't imagine having this sort of an outlook.

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## moostraks

> This is an interesting thread to me. I consider myself a Skeptic now, but I still see value in 'spiritual' experience which to me includes Meditation Practice.  I think Meditation is a very valuable tool regardless of your beliefs.  It does not necessarily require chanting mantras or sitting in an uncomfortable posture either.  It can be done just sitting comfortably in a quiet space.  
> 
> I also think Mindfulness Meditation can help you be much less susceptible to stress or emotional impulses from anger or desire.



If you are curious at all about such things, while also suggesting one not take the experience too frivolously, Rudolf Steiner wrote a few interesting books on the matter. He was Catholic so it comes from that basis but it is very interesting and probably a good read for a skeptic who might be curious about such a subject. I love Steiner because his writings always give me a new way of turning a subject matter around and looking at things from a different perspective. If you can leave your skepticism at the door you can gain some pearls but, well, some of it reads like you need to smoke something first...lol! Many of his writings are available for free on the web if you get curious.

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## moostraks

> Yeah, sorry moostraks---maybe we'll wait until Sept then, that's a good time for us too, thanks.


Awww...no problem. I love peaceful derails. Chat away.

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## VIDEODROME

I prefer the term Mindful over Mindless lmao. 

It is kind of like achieving and unusual state of awareness.  Or basically tuning down the inner mental chatter thinking about bills, your job, car maintenance, and just the daily grind.  I think there is a return of other kinds of awareness when doing this.  It's like the difference between being in a crowded noisy room or a quiet room and being able to hear a pin drop.  

Frankly, I think our culture tends to embrace the equivalent of being in a noisy room.  We love stimulation of our senses and tend to seek more because honestly most material pleasures are fleeting.  That's how you become a SmartPhone Zombie or TV Zombie because you like the constant input.  

Another way I think of this is how a hot air balloon ascends by casting off weight.  I think most human beings carry around mental baggage and it's nice to basically have a momentary reprieve from doing that.  Or even realizing somethings are unnecessarily burdening our minds.  So by setting these things aside, we might look at them more objectively, and wonder if it was really worth it to be stressing over somethings.

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## VIDEODROME

> Videodrome, I would echo what Nang has written above.  I would be careful to get any kind of advice on meditation by anyone on the internet, and this of course includes from me, Nang, or anyone else here in RPF.  This is better to be done under the supervision of an experienced spiritual guide/confessor.  As Nang said, it can open the mind to spirits that are not always good.


I'm not sure I follow how meditation supposedly makes people more open to these influences as opposed to regular consciousness or even when dreaming, but thanks for the concern.

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## TER

> I prefer the term Mindful over Mindless lmao. 
> 
> It is kind of like achieving and unusual state of awareness.  Or basically tuning down the inner mental chatter thinking about bills, your job, car maintenance, and just the daily grind.  I think there is a return of other kinds of awareness when doing this.  It's like the difference between being in a crowded noisy room or a quiet room and being able to hear a pin drop.  
> 
> Frankly, I think our culture tends to embrace the equivalent of being in a noisy room.  We love stimulation of our senses and tend to seek more because honestly most material pleasures are fleeting.  That's how you become a SmartPhone Zombie or TV Zombie because you like the constant input.  
> 
> Another way I think of this is how a hot air balloon ascends by casting off weight.  I think most human beings carry around mental baggage and it's nice to basically have a momentary reprieve from doing that.  Or even realizing somethings are unnecessarily burdening our minds.  So by setting these things aside, we might look at them more objectively, and wonder if it was really worth it to be stressing over somethings.


Videodrome, you may be interested in this book by Father Seraphim Rose, an man who was born in Canada, was an atheist then studied various Eastern religions until becoming an Orthodox monk and is considered by many a modern saint of the Christian Church.  He died in California and his writings have been extremely popular in Russia in the past 20 years.  The name of the book is _Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future_.  Another good one is _Nihilism: The Root of the Revolution of the Modern Age_.

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## TER

> I'm not sure I follow how meditation supposedly makes people more open to these influences as opposed to regular consciousness or even when dreaming, but thanks for the concern.


The same way drugs and other psychotropic substances can.

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## moostraks

> I prefer the term Mindful over Mindless lmao. 
> 
> It is kind of like achieving and unusual state of awareness.  Or basically tuning down the inner mental chatter thinking about bills, your job, car maintenance, and just the daily grind.  I think there is a return of other kinds of awareness when doing this.  It's like the difference between being in a crowded noisy room or a quiet room and being able to hear a pin drop.  
> 
> Frankly, I think our culture tends to embrace the equivalent of being in a noisy room.  We love stimulation of our senses and tend to seek more because honestly most material pleasures are fleeting.  That's how you become a SmartPhone Zombie or TV Zombie because you like the constant input.  
> 
> Another way I think of this is how a hot air balloon ascends by casting off weight.  I think most human beings carry around mental baggage and it's nice to basically have a momentary reprieve from doing that.  Or even realizing somethings are unnecessarily burdening our minds.  So by setting these things aside, we might look at them more objectively, and wonder if it was really worth it to be stressing over somethings.


 Steiner had a particular method in his day which begins by contemplation of a seed and the energy it embraces, purpose being to focus all your energy on a specific organic item and the energy it encloses before it becomes its final form. He was well read on various religious paths and big on reincarnation focusing much of his time on the energy forces within various items. So your post brought to mind one of the passages I read about people being so impatient when delays inevitably come up in daily life and how mindful meditation will quiet those demons. Even in the business of daily life when bombarded by exterior obligations and noise one can take what begins as a very strict study of the seed and grasp this quality of peaceful meditative state in a moment of chaos and frustration (such as stuck in a long line at the post office). i am amused after employing just the idea of of this has made me much less grouchy and impatient then almost any one I ever meet in line somewhere. Meditation is awesome imo...

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## TER

> The same way drugs and other psychotropic substances can.


I should qualify this with something I wrote in another thread:

The effects of hallucinogenic substances do create spiritual experiences. The problem is that it may also allow for sinister spiritual beings, ie demons, to enter the thoughts and minds of those who are on such substances. And when such forces gain a foothold, they can be difficult to root out. This is why the desert fathers and mothers from the beginning who lived their lives in constant prayer and spiritual battle against their passions and the temptings of the devil have consistently and universally insisted that the use of such substances are fraught with dangers and should be shunned. For those who fight the unseen warfare against the spiritual forces which attack us with the three weapons I mentioned earlier, that is fasting, prayer, and almsgiving (as Christ taught and did Himself), then the experiences of the Holy Spirit in the process of deification will bring ecstacy, peace, joy, and love much greater and much fuller than those done by the temporary chemical reactions of psychotropic substances. 

I think a person can have a true spiritual experience on mushrooms just as a person can have a true spiritual experience without mushrooms, but from where that spiritual experience finds its source and with whom it is abiding in, be it from the Holy Spirit or from the demons, can be extremely difficult or even impossible to know. It requires much discernment, as the devil can be as 'an angel of light' as the Apostle says. Such psychotropic chemicals (the word psychotropic taken literally from the Greek 'soul changing') can produce spiritual experiences, but the danger as I mentioned above is that when one allows themselves to enter such spiritual states without first purifying themselves (fasting, prayer, charity, etc), they can be playing with fire, which is why so many countless users succumb to spiritual sickness, such as gluttony, paranoia, depression and despondency (which is the greatest of the spiritual maladies). Those who have found the path to true spiritual knowledge and maturity in the Holy Spirit do not require chemical substances, but rather experience the greatest of spiritual benefits which are eternal and infinite, namely 'love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.' (Galatians 5:22-23).

This is the Pearl of Great Price the Lord spake of and is not achieved by temporary psychotropic chemicals but given by the Grace of God to those who follow Him.

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## moostraks

> The same way drugs and other psychotropic substances can.


The possibility of meeting some creepy who knows what is why I haven't gone any further because Steiner's writings were meant to be understood by being mentored. It goes into his descriptions of what is out there including that which moves in the dark corners.  It is very much like the gateways one opens with certain drugs or any mind altering substance which lowers one's guard.

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## VIDEODROME

> The possibility of meeting some creepy who knows what is why I haven't gone any further because Steiner's writings were meant to be understood by being mentored. It goes into his descriptions of what is out there including that which moves in the dark corners.  It is very much like the gateways one opens with certain drugs or any mind altering substance which lowers one's guard.


Interesting thought.  This thread topic is essentially referring to some kind of Inner Light.  I imagine full on drug addiction could make you dwell in the Inner Darkness.  

My take on this is that external supernatural forces are not at all required to contribute to this.  The Mind can be a strange thing like a deep dark pool and you don't always know what you may find down there when you dive within to the further depths.

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## TER

> My genetic roots are in the Greek Orthodox Church seeing is that my grandfather came from the island of Tinos, Greece and my Mother was also Greek Orthodox.  I have done a lot of study in this area myself.


Terry, here is something someone posted on a blog today which would likely touch close to the heart of your grandfather Angelo who has fallen asleep in the Lord:


Before us is a great goal--to be a new creation and to imitate and partake of Christ. To achieve it, one must correct oneself and break one's self-will, moving from pride to meekness; from passion to abstinence; from hot-temperedness to gentleness and hospitality; from self-centeredness and greed to compassion; from suspiciousness and jealousy to being supportive and well-wishing; from light-mindedness to wisdom in God; from cowardice and faint-heartedness to bravery and courage; all things changing for the good. 

God helps us in every way; however we ourselves must also actively participate in this noble endeavor. Here lie a multitude of obstacles. Often, our nature and essence contradict and act against the Christian lifestyle. This puts us in a kind of despair which the Holy Fathers called "spiritual despondency." Such temptation to despair comes from the devil. As he tempted Christ when our Lord was near exhaustion, so he tries to tempt us at the weakest moments of our lives. Cunning and insidious dragon! Therefore, "Watch and pray, lest you enter temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak" (Matthew 26:41), remembering always that "if indeed we suffer with Him...we may also be glorified together" (Romans 8:17). 

Prayer, attending church services, fasting, abstinence, confession, Holy Communion, study of the Holy Scriptures, spiritual reading, thinking about God, works of charity - all these are necessary means for our internal regeneration and are our footprints in following Christ. However, if we forget the goal, our means yield little benefit and can become dead attributes. 

We must treasure the Orthodox Church and our union with her, because she alone preserves the true, original understanding and essence of Christianity, while many so-called denominations threw away from their "Christianity" everything that seemed outwardly difficult and unpleasant. They have deprived themselves and their followers of the regenerative force of the Christian faith, leaving only pleasing external appearances and "inspirational" sayings. For the person looking for the real spiritual life, Orthodoxy alone gives all that is needed - the Grace in its sacraments and the spiritual experience and wisdom of the Holy Fathers. Though not all are called to be great achievers, through the true Faith the riches of Christ are abundantly available to all. With such riches available to us, it is tragic that many, through misguided beliefs, worldly cares, and passions, are diverted and cut off from spiritual progress and salvation. 

"Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees" (Hebrews 12:12), remembering that every good effort brings us closer to Christ, and that each victory over temptation is our victory with Him. We will follow victoriously the One Who said, "Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light" (Matthew 11:29-30).

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## Terry1

> Terry, here is something someone posted on a blog today which would likely touch close to the heart of your grandfather Angelo who has fallen asleep in the Lord:
> 
> 
> Before us is a great goal--to be a new creation and to imitate and partake of Christ. To achieve it, one must correct oneself and break one's self-will, moving from pride to meekness; from passion to abstinence; from hot-temperedness to gentleness and hospitality; from self-centeredness and greed to compassion; from suspiciousness and jealousy to being supportive and well-wishing; from light-mindedness to wisdom in God; from cowardice and faint-heartedness to bravery and courage; all things changing for the good. 
> 
> God helps us in every way; however we ourselves must also actively participate in this noble endeavor. Here lie a multitude of obstacles. Often, our nature and essence contradict and act against the Christian lifestyle. This puts us in a kind of despair which the Holy Fathers called "spiritual despondency." Such temptation to despair comes from the devil. As he tempted Christ when our Lord was near exhaustion, so he tries to tempt us at the weakest moments of our lives. Cunning and insidious dragon! Therefore, "Watch and pray, lest you enter temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak" (Matthew 26:41), remembering always that "if indeed we suffer with Him...we may also be glorified together" (Romans 8:17). 
> 
> Prayer, attending church services, fasting, abstinence, confession, Holy Communion, study of the Holy Scriptures, spiritual reading, thinking about God, works of charity - all these are necessary means for our internal regeneration and are our footprints in following Christ. However, if we forget the goal, our means yield little benefit and can become dead attributes. 
> 
> ...


Thank you TER, very convicting in my own Spirit---this I know, but don't always do.   I know that Grandpop Angelo was a faithful man, but always found comfort in a shot of Ouzo too.  It was *always on the table. LOL

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## TER

> Interesting thought.  This thread topic is essentially referring to some kind of Inner Light.  I imagine full on drug addiction could make you dwell in the Inner Darkness.  
> 
> My take on this is that external supernatural forces are not at all required to contribute to this.  The Mind can be a strange thing like a deep dark pool and you don't always know what you may find down there when you dive within to the further depths.


You are quite right.  Experiences which might be extraordinary does not at all mean they are supernatural.  The fantasies of the mind, or the images within the nous, can most certainly originate within our own mental faculties and capabilities.  This is easily experienced by those who begin to learn meditation and silent prayer.  It is amazing what the mind will think of when one tries to extinguish it of all distractions and thoughts!  While these too are impediments into true spiritual illumination, these are not in themselves of demonic or supernatural origin.  But of course, supernatural and demonic origin to images and suggestions within the mind can appear at those times as well, which is why such meditative practices can be dangerous.

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## Nang

> They have deprived themselves and their followers of the regenerative force of the Christian faith,


There is no regenerative force in faith.  Faith is the evidence of regeneration performed by the Holy Spirit alone.

Regeneration must precede faith.  John 3:3




> For the person looking for the real spiritual life, Orthodoxy alone gives all that is needed


Real spiritual life comes only by the Holy Spirit; and to teach or promise differently, is to usurp Him and attempt to replace Him.

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## Terry1

> There is no regenerative force in faith.  Faith is the evidence of regeneration performed by the Holy Spirit alone.
> 
> Regeneration must precede faith.  John 3:3
> 
> 
> 
> Real spiritual life comes only by the Holy Spirit; and to teach or promise differently, is to usurp Him and attempt to replace Him.


Then you don't understand what he's saying when he told you "Orthodoxy alone", which includes the creeds that conformed us.

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## TER

> Thank you TER, very convicting in my own Spirit---this I know, but don't always do.   I know that Grandpop Angelo was a faithful man, but always found comfort in a shot of Ouzo too.  It was *always on the table. LOL


hmmm...seem like we may indeed be related...

There is only one thing better for the soul then the Holy Eucharist

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## Terry1

> hmmm...seem like we may indeed be related...
> 
> There is only one thing better for the soul then the Holy Eucharist

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## TER

> Real spiritual life comes only by the Holy Spirit; and to teach or promise differently, is to usurp Him and attempt to replace Him.


I agree exactly.  This is the Orthodox faith.

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## Terry1

> I agree exactly.  This is the Orthodox faith.


LOL

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## Nang

> I agree exactly.  This is the Orthodox faith.



I quoted to you your words that belie this response.

*Regeneration precedes faith.*  Not the other way around.

*^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ * is the Orthodox Protestant teaching.

You and I are in opposite positions on this point, so do not try to publically cover up our differences.

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## moostraks

> I quoted to you your words that belie this response.
> 
> *Regeneration precedes faith.*  Not the other way around.
> 
> *^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ * is the Orthodox Protestant teaching.
> 
> You and I are in opposite positions on this point, so do not try to publically cover up our differences.


Why don't you create your own thread on the subject nang?

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## TER

> I quoted to you your words that belie this response.
> 
> Regeneration precedes faith.  Not the other way around.
> 
> That is the Orthodox Protestant teaching.
> 
> You and I are in opposite positions on this point, so do not try to cover up our differences.


I was trying to be polite and less argumentative with you, so I only answered the second part of that post.

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## TER

> Why don't you create your own thread on the subject nang?


Great idea!

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## acptulsa

> The 'Inner Light' is the gift given to all men from God, and many traditions and religions have experienced it.





> It is mysticism.





> Christianity is not mysticism.  And the Holy Spirit does not work within the evils of creation.  (e.g. corruption, death, wickedness, etc.)


Jesus said, 'I am the Way and the Light.'  So, if you have no inner light, how can you have Jesus in your heart?




> I reply, not to be contrary, but to give warning. . .
> 
> Mindless meditation can be very dangerous, for it opens the mind to spirits that are not always good.
> 
> Meditation should be focused on Holy Scripture, ALONE.


God is everywhere.  Those who are afraid to seek God here or there for fear that the devil is there too lack faith.  Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Got bad news, nang.  Even Holy Scripture has been used by the devil to lead people astray.  Without Jesus The Light inside you in your heart, even blinding yourself to everything else but Scripture isn't enough to protect you.

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## moostraks

> Interesting thought.  This thread topic is essentially referring to some kind of Inner Light.  I imagine full on drug addiction could make you dwell in the Inner Darkness.  
> 
> My take on this is that external supernatural forces are not at all required to contribute to this.  The Mind can be a strange thing like a deep dark pool and you don't always know what you may find down there when you dive within to the further depths.


Wild video. Watched it while eating lunch 

Yeah folks like me after some traumatic experiences such as I have lived through probably don't want to wake some of the monsters we have lurking in the closets but I have found it helps to let them see daylight occasionally to lessen their powers over own subconscious actions. Since I have had occasion to beat back my own monsters before they don't scare me near as bad as some of the descriptions of the demons I have heard described of that one will almost inevitably run into when they go deep enough below the surface. To describe it for a skeptic would be to say, imagine putting aside your skepticism and being like a child who doesn't rationalize every shadow into a known object. If you come at the task in a particular fashion it is said that you will open your perceptions to be aware of those things that are outside of our hardened rationalizations and known experiences. This is when Steiner says the outside monsters come out to play. They come after you deal with what you have inside of you. 

Most of us just live on the surface. I think it is pretty interesting in some respects to see the arguments put forth by others who read the same words I do in say Scripture, and yet I see things from a completely different light. They say I am worthless because imo they have a very surface experience with the words they use to try and hurt other people. I could only imagine how awesome the same words are/were for the studious monk without the outside distractions.

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## Nang

> Jesus said, 'I am the Way and the Light.'  So, if you have no inner light, how can you have Jesus in your heart?
> 
> 
> 
> God is everywhere.  Those who are afraid to seek God here or there for fear that the devil is there too lack faith.  Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
> 
> Got bad news, nang.  Even Holy Scripture has been used by the devil to lead people astray.  Without Jesus The Light inside you in your heart, even blinding yourself to everything else but Scripture isn't enough to protect you.



If you are referring to God the Holy Spirit being the "inner light," I agree with you.

But Christians are taught it is unwise to tempt God, and meditating apart from the word of God, is such a temptation.

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## Terry1

> If you are referring to God the Holy Spirit being the "inner light," I agree with you.
> 
> But Christians are taught it is unwise to tempt God, and meditating apart from the word of God, is such a temptation.


*1 John 1:5 
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all*

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## acptulsa

> But Christians are taught it is unwise to tempt God, and meditating apart from the word of God, is such a temptation.


If Jesus is your inner light, what do you do apart from God?

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## VIDEODROME

Another interesting video I thought I'd share.  This is Parabola from the band TOOL.  

This video has a lot of interesting visual themes in it.  At the end is kind of an "Inner Light" visual effect.  





> Twirling round with this familiar parable.
> Spinning, weaving round each new experience.
> Recognize this as a holy gift and celebrate this chance to be alive and breathing.
> 
> This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality.
> Embrace this moment. Remember. we are eternal.
> all this pain is an illusion.

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## moostraks

> Another interesting video I thought I'd share.  This is Parabola from the band TOOL.  
> 
> This video has a lot of interesting visual themes in it.  At the end is kind of an "Inner Light" visual effect.


That was really cool! It was like a visual portrayal of spiritual enlightenment. Thanks!!!

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## VIDEODROME

Glad somebody enjoyed it.  It's one of my favorite music videos.

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## robert68

This is where the Quakers have a lot in common with the traditional Christian Church's, both east and west:

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