# Lifestyles & Discussion > Personal Health & Well-Being >  Anti-Vaxer Dr. Whitaker gets pummeled into common sense by Science, Reason &Steven Novella

## RonRules

This is a report about a debate at Freedom Fest in Las Vegas about 10 days ago.

Let me preface:

This forum, particularly this sub-forum us deeply infected with anti-science nonsense.

I am a scientific skeptic and have been all my life. It's time one of us stood up to a lot of this crap, particularly the anti-vaccination idiocy.

I believe in the non-aggression principle. If you don't vaccinate your kids, you are helping the viruses propagate, mutate and you may cause harm to MY kids. Vaccines will NOT hurt your kids. You're wrong about that.

To disregard the incredible gains that science and particularly medical science have made over the last century is to live life like a blind man in a strip club.

It's time you Anti-Vaxers look at the way things really are.

Most REAL scientists and doctors don't have time to deal with all the pseudo-science that's out there.  So you Anti-Vaxers are free to spew your nonsense at various controlled events, with sympathetic audiences.

But this time my favorite medical professional, Steven Novella (a clinical neurologist, professor and Director of Neurology at Yale) happened to be in town!  Novella also runs the most popular scientific podcast: "The Skeptics Guide to the Universe", which I have listened to every week for the last 5 years. 

Novella took off his conference to go debate an Anti-Vaxer, Dr. Whitaker (who is a big fan of cancer quack Dr. Stanislaw Burzynski). Note that Novella did not even know the debate opponent prior to the debate.

He's how it rolled! (Please take the time to read this and for those of you on my side, you will savor every moment)

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...t-freedomfest/

Some juicy excerpts:

How it came to be:
"I turns out that the event was FreedomFest, a right-wing/Libertarian confab that happened to be going on at the same time as TAM up the road a piece on the Strip at Ballys. Steve didnt know who the antivaccinationist was going to be either, which made me marvel at him. I dont know that Id have the confidence agree to walk into the lions den with less than a days notice not even knowing who my opponent is. Steve was more than happy to invite me along. Clearly, this was was an opportunity that I couldnt resist. So we met up with Michael Shermer, and it was from him that I learned that Steves opponent was to be Dr. Julian Whitaker."

BTW, I'm pals with Michael Shermer. I've known him for 15 years and we meet about every month at his Skeptic lectures.

"To my surprise, neither Steve nor Michael knew who Dr. Whitaker was. Being more than happy to give them some background on Dr. Whitaker, I told them. Regular readers here might remember that Ive mentioned Dr. Whitaker before. First off, hes a big fan of Dr. Stanislaw Burzynski, serving as the primary pro-Burzynski medical expert in that propagandistic paean to the brave maverick doctor, Burzynski. (movie from Burzynski at the link above)"

"Dr. Whitaker is also big among the alternative medicine crowd for his claims to be able to cure diabetes naturally, without food or drugs (of course!). In doing so, he claims that metformin doesnt work, antibiotics dont work (because, apparently, they dont succeed in saving every diabetic foot) and that, in general, conventional medicine doesnt work. At his Wellness Center, he treats patients with diabetes and heart disease with acupuncture, nutritional supplements, diet, hyperbaric oxygen, chelation therapy, and a wide variety of other questionable therapies. (Hyperbaric oxygen could work for diabetic feet, but chelation therapy is useless and dangerous and acupuncture is nothing more than placebo medicine)."

"[They were] passing out a newsletter, Dr. Whitakers Health & Healing: Your Definitive Guide to Wellness Medicine. It was the September 2011 issue, and, emblazoned across the page was a large headline Vaccinations: The Destruction of Our Country. This does not bode well, I thought, as I thumbed through the newsletter, which packed pretty much every major antivaccine trope into a single article.



"Dr. Whitaker started out with what was essentially the same old tropes, including confusing correlation with causation, harping about how autism prevalence has appeared to skyrocket since the 1980s and 1990s. He made the claim that almost no child was developmentally disabled 30 years ago but now one in 88 children are diagnosed as having an autism spectrum disorder. During this segment, he also *went on about how chronic diseases are skyrocketing along with autism and that it must be the evil vaccines. OK, I added the evil part, but it was quite clear that Dr. Whitaker thinks that they are evil. He made that very clear.*"

"This was just the warmup. Steve, as you might imagine, easily demolished these arguments, pointing out that correlation does not equal causation. He also discussed how there have been several very large studies that controlled for relevant variables have failed to find even (as I like to put it) even a whiff of a hint of a correlation between vaccination and either autism prevalence or onset. He discussed how we as humans are hard-wired to infer causation from observed correlation, which makes it very understandable that people mistakenly conclude that vaccines cause autism? Why? Because, as weve discussed time and time again here, autism is often diagnosed in the age range when children receive a lot of vaccines, which means that by random chance alone we will often see diagnoses made in close temporal proximity to a round of vaccinations. Moreover, it was easy for Steve to point out that diagnostic criteria were broadened in the early 1990s, that schools started screening for autism, and that schools also got funding from the government to help autistic students. Again, Dr. Whitakers arguments were softball pitches, easily hit out of the ballpark as Prince Fielder hit balls out of the ballpark three days earlier in the pre-Allstar Game Home Run Derby. In essence, Dr. Whitaker made the same sort of ignorant arguments that Dr. Jay Gordon regularly makes, as exemplified in the comments after this excellent post by Emily Willingham why the autism epidemic is no epidemic at all."

"It was at this point that Dr. Whitaker lived up to the name of Penn Jillettes Friday night party at TAM: He brought the stupid. Oh, man, did he bring the stupid! Im sorry. I know that were not supposed to be quite so harsh here on SBM, but its been a long time since Ive seen such a glaring example of mathematic, statistical, and scientific illiteracy. First, he stated unequivocally that he thought that vaccines were the primary cause of autism, scoffing at the idea that it was primarily genetic in nature or that vaccines were not causing it. As bad as that was, worse was to come, and it did when Dr. Whitaker showed this graph (sorry for the poor quality; the room was dark and all I had was my iPhone):"



*I want you to sit back for a minute and drink in the utter silliness of this graph*, the utter lack of science, the utter nonsense. Its been a long time since Ive seen its like. Im sure many of you can figure out whats wrong with it on your own, but my duty as blogger demands that I explain, and Ill give it exactly the time it deserves. Take a look. Notice how Dr. Whitaker extrapolates from a small dataset to produce curves that go right up to 100/100, or 100%. Steves jaw (and mine and, I daresay, Michael Shermers jaws) dropped in astonishment. Thats right. Dr. Whitaker produced a graph that predicted that *by the year 2032 all boys will be diagnosed with an ASD and that by 2041 all girls will also have autism*. I kid you not. Lest you think that this wasnt Dr. Whitakers intention, that he didnt know the implications of his extrapolation, I will quote from the relevant section of Dr. Whitakers newsletter discussing the graph:

"*To cap it off, Dr. Whitaker scaled the Y-axis to go up to 120.* This was so bad that I almost felt sorry for Dr. Whitaker. When Dr. Novella explained why these graphs were so silly, the audience got it instantly, and it was at that point that Dr. Whitaker began to lose the audience."

"We didnt pull any punches, either, asking where he got the data, how he generated the data, what mathematical model he used to produce the graph, how he fitted the curve, how he could justify extrapolating so far from such a limited data set, how he decided what curve to fit, and how he can justify a curve that goes to 100% when there is virtually no condition that 100% of the population will suffer from except for (eventually) death. His answers wereshall we say?not exactly convincing. "

" It was actually rather painful to watch, in the way that its painful to watch one baseball team get pummeled by 12 runs, even when its a baseball team I really detest, like the New York Yankees. However, there was no mercy rule in debate. Basically, Dr. Whitaker trotted out a number of antivaccine greatest hits, and Steve pummeled him for it. For instance, Dr. Whitaker showed this graph:


"Yes, this graph is yet another example of one of the oldest and most deceptive antivaccine tropes, one that I like to call the vaccines didnt save us gambit. Basically, this intellectually dishonestdownright deceptive, actuallytactic involves pointing out that mortality was falling from a given infectious disease before a vaccine for it was introduced. In this case, it was measles and a few other diseases. The implication that antivaccinationists want people to draw is that hygiene, sanitation, and the like were the real causes of the decrease. The long version of the rebuttal this gambit is here. The short version is that disease incidence does not equal mortality and that measles incidence plummeted after the introduction of the vaccine. The reason mortality was falling before the vaccine was for other reasons. Medical care was getting better, and a smaller percentage of people who got the disease died from it."

"I will finish by pointing out that its one thing for an antivaccine party like the Canary Party to link up with a local Tea Party organization, as Kent Heckenlively crowed about recently. Its quite another thing when a national meeting in which many of the luminaries of conservatism, libertarianism, and the Tea Party movement go to pow-wow together allows such rank antivaccine nonsense a prominent place in its program, complete with a pseudo-debate and two screenings of a movie that is nothing more than rank antivaccine propaganda disguised as a tell both sides-style balanced documentary."

Read the rest at the link:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...t-freedomfest/

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## Revolution9

Bull$#@!. You cannot subjugate other children because of your irrational fears of a virus. You are shilling for the pharmaciders and trying to lay out the smoke screen for when children damaged by vaccines parents have their rightful day in court to collect compensation for the damage they have intentionally inflicted for profit.. And the science is correct on vaccines being harmful in very many cases. 

Helping correct the damage of the anti-science faction?? heh.. Yer a frikkin' hoot and a holler pal.

Rev9

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## RonRules

> You are shilling for the pharmaciders and trying to lay out the smoke screen for when children damaged by vaccines parents have their rightful day in court to collect compensation for the damage they have intentionally inflicted for profit.. And the science is correct on vaccines being harmful in very many cases.


Pharmaceutical companies HATE the vaccine business. There's no money in it and it's got all the risks of exposure to lawsuits from wacko anti-vaxers (congress changed that, in part). You may remember that at one point all pharmaceutical were getting out of the business. Read the article, it explains why.

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## donnay

> Pharmaceutical companies HATE the vaccine business. There's no money in it and it's got all the risks of exposure to lawsuits from wacko anti-vaxers (congress changed that, in part). You may remember that at one point all pharmaceutical were getting out of the business. Read the article, it explains why.



LOL!

Vaccine sales are excpected to double, from $19 billion last year to $39 billion in 2013.
http://www.thebetterhealthstore.com/...rofits_07.html

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## Chester Copperpot

OP makes no sense...

If your kids are vaccinated and mine are not.. and my kids get sick, how do they pose a health risk to your kids???

If your kids are vaccinated then they should be protected according to you right???

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## RonRules

> LOL!
> 
> Vaccine sales are excpected to double, from $19 billion last year to $39 billion in 2013.
> http://www.thebetterhealthstore.com/...rofits_07.html


I was expecting you to show up soon. You beat me to it. I was going to put a timer in the thread and making bets to see how long you would take to show up.

The issue is PROFITS, not sales. Flu shots are $20 (or so). There is no PROFIT in flu shots.

Show me your data source for the above numbers! (not from some BS alt med newsletter: thebetterhealthstore.com)

Here are the most profitable drugs:
Lipitor	cholesterol	Pfizer	$5,329,000,000
Zyprexa	antipsychotic	Eli Lily	$2,496,000,000
Levaquin	antibiotics	Johnson & Johnson	$1,312,000,000
Concerta	ADHD/ADD	Johnson & Johnson	$929,000,000
Protonix	antacid	Pfizer	$690,000,000
Plavix	anti-platelet	Bristol-Myers Squibb /
Sanofi-Aventis	$6,154,000,000
Seroquel	antipsychotic	AstraZeneca	$3,747,000,000
Singulair	asthma	Merck	$3,224,000,000
Actos	type 2 diabetes	Takeda	$3,351,000,000
Enbrel	arthritis	Amgen	$3,304,000,000

Data Source: http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/02/...tection-ready/

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## RonRules

> OP makes no sense...
> 
> If your kids are vaccinated and mine are not.. and my kids get sick, how do they pose a health risk to your kids???
> 
> If your kids are vaccinated then they should be protected according to you right???


Learn about mutations. 

Viruses mutate at least on a yearly basis, which is why the elderly to take a new flu shot every year.

Even if vaccinated, viruses mutate and the vaccine is no longer effective.

If EVERYONE is vaccinated, the virus is gone. That's why.

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## Kotin

pretty much everything you wrote is wrong.. I'll leave it at that. I am sure you cannot be convinced otherwise.

good luck forcing those of us who are informed enough to see through this ridiculousness into injecting poison into the veins of those we are responsible to protect.

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## RonRules

> pretty much everything you wrote is wrong..


Show me line by line where I'm wrong, please.

While you're at it, please show where Steven Novella is wrong.

Also, why is polio completely irradiated in this country? 

It's because EVERYBODY got vaccinated.

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## Acala

I think the evidence is clear that properly developed and manufactured vaccines can work very well indeed.  I have no problem with them.  (I find it interesting that they rely on homeopathic principles, but that is OT). 

But I have a BIG, BIG problem with anyone trying to use force to make another person or a child take the vaccine.

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## RonRules

> (I find it interesting that they rely on homeopathic principles, but that is OT).


ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Man, this is going to be a long day!

Even if you're on my side, I won't let you get away with ANY crap!

Let Randi explain you Homeopathy:

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## donnay

> Show me line by line where I'm wrong, please.
> 
> While you're at it, please show where Steven Novella is wrong.
> 
> Also, why is polio completely irradiated in this country? 
> 
> It's because EVERYBODY got vaccinated.



It was eradicated because of better sanitation and hygiene--that's why.

I have a friend of mine who is 56 years old, and has NEVER had one vaccine.  She is healthy as a horse!

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## NoOneButPaul

> I think the evidence is clear that properly developed and manufactured vaccines can work very well indeed.  I have no problem with them.  (I find it interesting that they rely on homeopathic principles, but that is OT). 
> 
> But I have a BIG, BIG problem with anyone trying to use force to make another person or a child take the vaccine.


This.

But the OP has a point... once herd immunity is compromised we can all find ourselves at risk.

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## RonRules

> It was eradicated because of better sanitation and hygiene--that's why.


No.

Please read the article.

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## James Madison

This thread is gonna be good.

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## angelatc

> I believe in the non-aggression principle. If you don't vaccinate your kids, you are helping the viruses propagate, mutate and you may cause harm to MY kids.


Meh - I don't think forcing other people to vaccinate their kids is non-aggressive.  And I'm not an anti-vaxxer. My kids had their shots right on schedule.  So I'm just asking - if your kids are vaccinated, how can non-vaccinated kids hurt yours?

If the disease is mutating, it's to get past the vaccines.

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## RonRules

> If the disease is mutating, it's to get past the vaccines.


Looks like you just answered your own question.

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## RonRules

Sometimes purchases are mandatory. For example car insurance in California. It's mandatory and not too many people complain.

I presume some people who are rich enough to self insure (like Steve Jobs ... oops, not him, he's dead of Alt Med nonsense) or like Warren Buffet.

I don't have a problem the car insurance mandate; it is a good thing.

Vaccination is even more needed and should be mandatory, because it affects others.

If you don't want to get an asthmatic respirator for your kid, then fine, let him die by asphyxiation. It won't affect my kid. That's why respirators are not mandatory.

Kids without vaccination, at least should not be allowed to go to public schools. And religious exemptions should not be allowed either.

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## Revolution9

> OP makes no sense...
> 
> If your kids are vaccinated and mine are not.. and my kids get sick, how do they pose a health risk to your kids???
> 
> If your kids are vaccinated then they should be protected according to you right???


Ker-smack. Right from the heart of pure logic.

Good one.

Rev9

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## Origanalist

> I believe in the non-aggression principle. If you don't vaccinate your kids, you are helping the viruses propagate, mutate and you may cause harm to MY kids. Vaccines will NOT hurt your kids. You're wrong about that.


So to back up your non-aggression you would use what method to force compliance?

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## heavenlyboy34

> I was expecting you to show up soon. You beat me to it. I was going to put a timer in the thread and making bets to see how long you would take to show up.
> 
> The issue is PROFITS, not sales. Flu shots are $20 (or so). There is no PROFIT in flu shots.
> 
> Show me your data source for the above numbers! (not from some BS alt med newsletter: thebetterhealthstore.com)
> 
> Here are the most profitable drugs:
> Lipitor    cholesterol    Pfizer    $5,329,000,000
> Zyprexa    antipsychotic    Eli Lily    $2,496,000,000
> ...


You missed the point of that article.  The profit will still be there-only it will be the makers of generics getting it.  The article is quite clear that developers make good profits during the life of a patent.  If there's no profit in the pharma business, noone would get into it. (unless they can get federal subsidies, of course)

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## Revolution9

> The issue is PROFITS, not sales. Flu shots are $20 (or so). There is no PROFIT in flu shots.


There certainly is in the lingering after effects. So.. I will bet you think boys should get the cervical cancer shot too..when they don't frikkin' have a cervix fer chrissakes.

Rev9

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## RonRules

> So to back up your non-aggression you would use what method to force compliance?


Don't let them in public schools. It's pretty much like that in most states, but the're a religious exemption. Those should be kicked out for stupidity as well.

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## angelatc

> It was eradicated because of better sanitation and hygiene--that's why.




I can produce a similar chart for every single disease we're talking about.   When the vaccine is introduced, the occurrance in the population drops immediately.  Every time.  




> I have a friend of mine who is 56 years old, and has NEVER had one vaccine.  She is healthy as a horse!


I have tons of friends who were vaccinated, and none of them got autism. They are also quite healthy.

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## angelatc

> Don't let them in public schools. It's pretty much like that in most states, but the're a religious exemption. Those should be kicked out for stupidity as well.


I'd rather do away with public schools, but in the interim the solution is actually making the higher standards apply to private schools.  If you don't want your beloved urchins exposed to the untouchables, then by all means - keep them away.

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## RonRules

> You missed the point of that article.  The profit will still be there-only it will be the makers of generics getting it.  The article is quite clear that developers make good profits during the life of a patent.  If there's no profit in the pharma business, noone would get into it. (unless they can get federal subsidies, of course)


The point was to respond to the argument that vaccine providers make enormous profits. They don't.

The're plenty of profits in pharmaceuticals, like the ones I listed, but not by making vaccines.

BTW, there's really NOT that much profit in pharma compared to the tsunami of cash that Apple and Google are raking in. If profits is your problem, bitch about Apple. They sell iPhones for 5X what it costs them.

I took a totally random Big Pharma: Glaxo Smity Kline.  I have no idea if they are the biggest or most profitable. 
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=GSK+Key+Statistics

Profitability
Profit Margin (ttm):	18.44%
Operating Margin (ttm):	30.71%

Then I compared with Apple:
Profitability
Profit Margin (ttm):	27.13%
Operating Margin (ttm):	35.69%

There's plenty of other financial statistics, but here's the point NOBODY makes: Big Pharma is in business to make money and in the case of GSK, their financials are about average with most large companies out there.

Go find another reason than profits to complain about Big Pharma.

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## angelatc

> You missed the point of that article.  The profit will still be there-only it will be the makers of generics getting it.  The article is quite clear that developers make good profits during the life of a patent.  If there's no profit in the pharma business, noone would get into it. (unless they can get federal subsidies, of course)


The polio vaccine is public domain, and yet it was mass produced and distributed to everybody regardless of ability to pay.

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## Carson

> I am a scientific skeptic and have been all my life. It's time one of us stood up to a lot of this crap, particularly the anti-vaccination idiocy.
> 
> I believe in the non-aggression principle. If you don't vaccinate your kids, you are helping the viruses propagate, mutate and you may cause harm to MY kids. Vaccines will NOT hurt your kids. You're wrong about that.


Any good scientist uses control groups. What sort of science is it if you conduct *multiple* experiments on your entire body of viable test subjects? And without consent!

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## angelatc

> .
> 
> Go find another reason than profits to complain about Big Pharma.


Why on earth are we reduced to defending profits on RPF?  The government doesn't mandate vaccines, and yet they're profitable - so that means the market sees a value in them.

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## Origanalist

> Don't let them in public schools. It's pretty much like that in most states, but the're a religious exemption. Those should be kicked out for stupidity as well.


So then what happens if the parents don't educate their kids? Should the State take them away, and vaccinate them?

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## angelatc

> Any good scientist uses control groups. What sort of science is it if you conduct *multiple* experiments on your entire viable test subjects? And without consent!


Are you assuming they're still testing whether or not vaccines work?  They were developed independently and tested as such.

The problem is that no amount of real science will ever satisfy the conspiracy nuts.

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## donnay

78 percent of Pakistani children with polio were given polio vaccines

Thursday, June 02, 2011 by: *Daniel Erickson*

(NaturalNews) In the last year, as Pakistan has lost favor with the US and UNICEF, polio virus has paralyzed increasing numbers of Pakistani youth, casting doubt on the good intentions of those who fight polio. To make matters worse, most of the new cases have occurred in children already vaccinated. Is the US attempting to fight Pakistan by tainting inoculation doses?

The medical data suggests that the vaccine has changed in its efficacy against the disease. Last year, there were 136 cases of infected youth, and 107 of these had been administered multiple polio vaccinations. These figures are the largest the Polio Global Eradication Initiative has seen since 2006, despite heavy treatment in the most affected areas, South Punjab and the Federally Administered Tribal Area (FATA).

Even the more peaceful provinces have suffered. As reported by the Pakistan Daily times, there were 10 cases of polio in Sindh province in the first four months of the year. The article morbidly notes each of the cases, citing the children's names and the number of vaccinations they had received before the onset of polio virus: "Mohammad Asif, aged 40 months with all his limbs affected... was administered oral anti polio vaccine (OPV) four times... The three and a half years old Ameera... had one of her arms and legs paralyzed... Ameera was first of the confirmed cases of polio during the current year."

As one might imagine, Pakistani citizens are beginning to suspect foul play. Dr. Mazhar Khamisani, a manager of the health department in Sindh has noted that he has seen Pakistani parents begin to refuse treatment and do so on repeated occasions. And how could we, when confronted with the facts, ask them to do otherwise?

The type of polio vaccine administered may be a significant cause of the problem. There are two main types of polio vaccine, Inactivated Polio Vaccine (IPV) and Oral Polio Vaccine (OPV). The first of these uses dead cells of poliomyelitis. IPV was developed by Jonas Salk before being disseminated throughout the US in the 1950s, to quell the outbreak that was then infecting roughly 22,000 American children each year. Within 20 years, polio was all but forgotten in America.

However, The Polio Global Eradication Initiative chooses to use the second type, Oral Polio Vaccine. OPV was developed by Albert Sabin and runs the virus through a number of animals in order to weaken the strain rather than kill it. The weakened strain is then injected into children, whose immune systems are strong enough to defeat the infection. It is easy to see how treatment could backfire, in cases when the strain has not been weakened enough for human contact.

Despite the fact that it was not widely disseminated in the US, possibly because of the dangers associated with its use, OPV is the vaccine of choice in countries like Pakistan because, soon after vaccination, weakened virus can be found in children's fecal matter. Immunity can then spread to communal water sources and increase immunity for greater portions of the population. So even if parents refuse OPV treatment, their children may still receive it indirectly through the drinking water.

Historically, there have been cases of outbreak when a weakened strain becomes strong enough to infect rather than immunize. In these cases, OPV is typically replaced by IPV because it is no longer considered safe. But OPV is still the vaccine of choice in Pakistan, even as it continues to prove its potency to the Polio Global Eradication Initiative. Why?
One explanation is that researchers have not collected enough data yet to say with certainty whether the vaccine is causing the outbreak. But how much longer will this go on?

It is equally plausible that the vaccine is not being handled properly. If the requisite temperature is not maintained, the vaccine can be rendered completely ineffectual. In remote areas, where power can be disrupted for hours and even days, the OPV treatments may have exceeded their temperature requirements and consequently lost their usefulness from temperature fluctuations. But surely, medical practitioners would know if their vaccine had potentially been compromised.

Unfortunately, both of these possibilities point to some kind of negligence. Either the doctors administering treatment are aware that their vaccine may not have the capacity to immunize their patients, or the people in charge are disseminating harmful vaccinations, then playing the victim to the 'inconclusiveness of the data' when it is clear that something has gone awry.

The Polio Global Eradication Initiative receives the majority of its funding through UNICEF and the US, both of which are beginning to look at Pakistan as an enemy, rather than a friend. Are political relations trickling down to the medical practitioners who are supposedly fighting a disease, not a country?

Sources:
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2936408/)
(http://www.dawn.com/2010/12/22/incid...-vaccinated-ch...)
(http://www.polioeradication.org/Infe.../Pakistan.aspx)
(http://www.history.com/this-day-in-h...e-trials-begin)
(http://americanhistory.si.edu/polio/.../vacraces2.htm)
(http://www.polioeradication.org/tabi...6/Default.aspx)
(http://dailytimespakistan.com/polio-...hildren-in-sin...)
(http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...2005.00460.x/p...)

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## Revolution9

> I can produce a similar chart for every single disease we're talking about.   When the vaccine is introduced, the occurrance in the population drops immediately.  Every time.  
> 
> 
> 
> I have tons of friends who were vaccinated, and none of them got autism. They are also quite healthy.


I didn't get autism from one of them but it did make this amber fluid that caused a nasty puss bumped rash to flow out of my ears for two weeks and caused major edema. My guess now is that my young body refused to let the substances involved pass the brain blood barrier and I ejected the poisons out my ears. Don't know which group that was as I was an army brat and got stabbed 50 times at least.

Rev9

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## RonRules

We can make this a battle of articles posted, so here's a few:

http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/P...ws/law01_2.htm
*Vaccines now account for only 3% of pharmaceutical industry profits, so they have stopped investing in them. Millions may die as a result*

http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/24/3/622.full
*Why Are Pharmaceutical Companies Gradually Abandoning Vaccines?*

Here's the list of all vaccine companies:
http://biopharmguy.com/vaccines.php

Pull up their financials and see how well they really do.

Here's the first pure vaccine company I could find stock information on:

GeoVax or Atlanta GA
http://www.geovax.com/investors/stock_chart.php

Their stock is $0.86 and have the following profitability:
Profitability
Profit Margin (ttm):	-50.84%
Operating Margin (ttm):	-50.87%

I swear, this is the first one I found!

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## Revolution9

> Are you assuming they're still testing whether or not vaccines work?  They were developed independently and tested as such.
> 
> The problem is that no amount of real science will ever satisfy the conspiracy nuts.


Nice shot at a flame war. When someone fires a similar shot back are ya gonna whine? When someone disproves what you say with facts are you gonna digest them?

Rev9

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## donnay



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## RonRules

> Any good scientist uses control groups. What sort of science is it if you conduct *multiple* experiments on your entire viable test subjects? And without consent!


We use Africa as the control group.

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## GeorgiaAvenger

2nd generation vaccinated man right here.....glad I was too. Vaccines are a science and a gift of God's wisdom to man.

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## RonRules

> 78 percent of Pakistani children with polio were given polio vaccines


Here's the only number I need to shoot that "Natural News" nonsense down:

What is the percentage of children that WERE vaccinated?

----------


## Chester Copperpot

If vaccines are so important to the OP, then I suggest he and his family use them...

Not for me.

Ill take my chances that my natural immune system will protect me.. I dont want any poison injected into me.

----------


## donnay

Here is a good book to read:

The Poisoned Needle by Eleanor McBean (1957) on-line book (Suppressed Facts About Vaccinations)
http://www.whale.to/a/mcbean3.html

----------


## donnay

> Here's the only number I need to shoot that "Natural News" nonsense down:
> 
> What is the percentage of children that WERE vaccinated?



Read the article.  The information is in plain view.

----------


## donnay

> 2nd generation vaccinated man right here.....glad I was too. Vaccines are a science and a gift of God's wisdom to man.


If God wanted us to have vaccines he wouldn't have given us an immune system.

----------


## RonRules

> If vaccines are so important to the OP, then I suggest he and his family use them...
> 
> Not for me.
> 
> Ill take my chances that my natural immune system will protect me.. I dont want any poison injected into me.


Not only my kids, but my cat is vaccinated.

I got my first flu shot last year and I'll be doing this yearly. It's great no yearly flu.

On the other hand, I don't want YOUR KIDS BACTERIA and VIRUSES on MY kids.

----------


## James Madison

> If God wanted us to have vaccines he wouldn't have given us an immune system.


Why not just skip the part when he created all those nasty viruses and bacteria? No need for an immune system. Twice the time saved.

----------


## GeorgiaAvenger

> If God wanted us to have vaccines he wouldn't have given us an immune system.


Vaccines are the remedy to the Devil's diseases. Ignoring vaccines is incredibly stupid. We would still be a black death and polio ridden country without them.

No, not all are good, but that applies to everything.

----------


## angelatc

> Nice shot at a flame war. When someone fires a similar shot back are ya gonna whine? When someone disproves what you say with facts are you gonna digest them?
> 
> Rev9


There was no fact in what he posted.

----------


## RonRules

No wonder they have a polio problem in Pakistan!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007...an.topstories3

*Polio cases jump in Pakistan as clerics declare vaccination an American plot
· Rumours leave thousands of children unprotected 
· Aid workers increasingly targeted by tribal militants*

Pseudoscience nonsense + religion telling people to not be vaccinated!

Go Darwin Go!

----------


## angelatc

> If God wanted us to have vaccines he wouldn't have given us an immune system.


You realize vaccines work only because we have an immune system, right?

----------


## angelatc

> On the other hand, I don't want YOUR KIDS BACTERIA and VIRUSES on MY kids.


Then stay the hell home.

----------


## RonRules

Good use of force on the population!:

A child is given the vaccine at a Peshawar hospital. Some mothers have to smuggle their children in. Photograph: Declan Walsh

Here's the article that goes with the picture:

The parents of 24,000 children in northern Pakistan refused to allow health workers to administer polio vaccinations last month, mostly due to rumours that the harmless vaccine was an American plot to sterilise innocent Muslim children.
*The disinformation - spread by extremist clerics using mosque loudspeakers and illegal radio stations, and by word of mouth - has caused a sharp jump in polio cases in Pakistan and hit global efforts to eradicate the debilitating disease.*

The World Health Organisation (WHO) recorded 39 cases of polio in Pakistan in 2006, up from 28 in 2005. The disease is concentrated in North-West Frontier Province, *where 60% of the refusals were attributed to "religious reasons".*

"It was very striking. There was a lot of anti-American propaganda as well as some misconceptions about sterilisation," said Dr Sarfaraz Afridi, a campaign manager with the WHO in Peshawar.

The scaremongering and appeals to Islam echoed a similar campaign in the Nigerian state of Kano in 2003, where the disease *then spread to 12 polio-free countries over the following 18 months. Pakistan is one of just four countries where polio remains endemic.* The others are Nigeria, India and Afghanistan.

The North-West Frontier Province government made strenuous efforts to counter talk of an "infidel vaccine". Health workers fanning across the province last month were equipped with copies of a fatwa, or religious order, endorsing the vaccinations and signed by Maulana Fazlur Rehman and Qazi Hussain Ahmed, the leaders of Pakistan's most powerful religious parties.

The move reassured many doubters. More than 5.7 million children were vaccinated in January, with another 3 million targeted in a second round due to start next Tuesday. "The elephant is over. We are left with just the tail," said Dr Afridi.

But the tail has a deadly sting. Even though only 24,000 children missed the vaccine, the WHO officials said failure to vaccinate in small pockets of the country gave the virus a fresh toehold to spread.

The vaccination struggle is entangled with the confrontation between the government and powerful militants in the tribal areas. Refusals were highest in areas where conservative clerics and self-styled "Pakistani Taliban" fighters hold sway, flouting government authority and making their own strict laws.

Almost 2,000 children were not vaccinated in Bajaur, a tribal agency on the Afghan border where US warplanes bombed a house last year in the hope of killing al-Qaida's No2, Ayman al-Zawahiri. The jets missed their target but inflamed extremist sentiment. Recently militants ordered Bajaur's barbers to stop shaving beards on the grounds that it was "un-Islamic". The barbers complied.

In nearby Swat Valley, a young firebrand cleric, Maulana Fazlullah, denounced the polio campaign through a local FM radio station. His brother was killed in a Pakistani army attack on a madrasa, or Islamic school, late last year. Almost 4,000 children were not vaccinated in Swat.

Imran Khan, of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, said: "Some people feel they are under attack here ... That is clouding their attitudes."

Demands for "assistance" from local officials and elders was the other major factor behind the refusals. In the Mohmand tribal agency, policemen demanded their salaries before allowing vaccination to proceed. Other villagers asked for money or the release of criminals from jail.

"Demand" refusals accounted for about one-third of cases, the WHO said.

*But some brave women were uncowed by the extortion or demagoguery.* Up to 200 babies a day are vaccinated at the Khyber teaching hospital in Peshawar, where burka-clad women arrive with children in their arms. Some arrive in secret, slipping into the clinic in defiance of male relatives who oppose vaccination. "One woman told me, 'My husband is illiterate. He has no idea how important this vaccine is,'" said Muhammad Islam, a male nurse.

Aid workers fear they are being pushed into the frontline of the struggle between the government and tribal militants, some linked to the Taliban and al-Qaida. Last weekend a grenade was lobbed into a Red Crescent compound in Peshawar, damaging vehicles but killing nobody.

Some linked the attack to a fatwa issued in Dara Adam Khel, a lawless town famous for its gunsmiths, just before Christmas. A cleric named Mufti Khalid Shah declared a fatwa on employees of the UN, WHO and all other foreign organisations. "Killing their employees is in line with the teachings of jihad in Islam," said a notice.

"We are very worried," said Mr Khan, of the Human Rights Commission. "You have to be very careful about admitting to working for an NGO these days."

*Recently aid workers in Bannu, near North Waziristan, were sent a letter and a 500 rupee (£4.50) note, he said. "The letter said they had a choice. They could either stop work or buy their own coffin."*

Backstory

Poliomyelitis is an acute viral infection of the nervous system. Worldwide more than half of infections are in children under five. One in two hundred infections leads to permanent paralysis, usually in the legs. In 5-10% of these cases the victims die when the breathing muscles are paralysed.

*Since the launch of the Global Polio Eradication Initiative in 1988 the number of reported cases worldwide has fallen from 350,000 to 1,968 - a decrease of over 99%. Today it remains endemic in four countries: Nigeria, India, Afghanistan and Pakistan. In 1988 affected countries numbered 125. While there remains no cure for polio the progress towards its eradication is due to widespread use of polio vaccines. By 2002 the WHO had certified 124 countries polio-free.*

More than 2 billion children have been immunised against the disease since 1988. The WHO estimates that because of the initiative five million fewer people have been paralysed by the disease.

Source: WHO

----------


## RonRules

> Then stay the hell home.


Kids have to go to school you know.

----------


## Origanalist

> Originally Posted by RonRules
> 
> 
>  On the other hand, I don't want YOUR KIDS BACTERIA and VIRUSES on MY kids.





> Then stay the hell home.


No $#@!.

----------


## angelatc

> Here's the only number I need to shoot that "Natural News" nonsense down:
> 
> What is the percentage of children that WERE vaccinated?


The answer to the conumdrum is in the article. They didn't get the same vaccine Americans got.




> The type of polio vaccine administered may be a significant cause of the problem. There are two main types of polio vaccine, Inactivated Polio Vaccine (IPV) and Oral Polio Vaccine (OPV). The first of these uses dead cells of poliomyelitis. IPV was developed by Jonas Salk before being disseminated throughout the US in the 1950s, to quell the outbreak that was then infecting roughly 22,000 American children each year. Within 20 years, polio was all but forgotten in America.
> 
> However, The Polio Global Eradication Initiative chooses to use the second type, Oral Polio Vaccine. OPV was developed by Albert Sabin and runs the virus through a number of animals in order to weaken the strain rather than kill it. The weakened strain is then injected into children, whose immune systems are strong enough to defeat the infection. It is easy to see how treatment could backfire, in cases when the strain has not been weakened enough for human contact.


I find it interesting that this article admits polio was eradicated in America using a vaccine, when just a week or so ago they published something totally different.

----------


## angelatc

> Kids have to go to school you know.


Home school, or Catholic school.  Catholics aren't anti-immunizers, and as such can mandate their pupils stay up to date.

----------


## Origanalist

> Kids have to go to school you know.


If your that paranoid about the rest of society, create a bubble and homeschool your kids and quit your "non-aggression" against those who don't agree with you.

----------


## donnay

*New Study: Vaccinated Children Have 2 to 5 Times More Diseases and Disorders Than Unvaccinated Children*

Augie
Journal of Natural Food and Health
Sun, 09 Oct 2011 20:14 EDT

Preventable Vaccine-induced Diseases

A German study released in September 2011 of about 8000 UNVACCINATED children, newborn to 19 years, show vaccinated children have at least 2 to 5 times more diseases and disorders than unvaccinated children.

The results are presented in the bar chart below; the complete data and study results are here. The data is compared to the national German KIGGS health study of the children in the general population. Most of the respondents to the survey were from the U.S. (Click on the chart to see it better)



The data was collected from parents with vaccine-free children via an internet questionnaire by vaccineinjury.info and Andreas Bachmair, a German classical homeopathic practitioner. The independent study is self-funded and is not sponsored by a large "credible" non-profit or government health organization with political and financial conflicts of interest; hence Bachmair relies on Google ads and donations for revenue. Each one of the 8000 cases are actual cases with medical documentation. Three other studies had similar results according to Bachmair and are reported below.

No study of health outcomes of vaccinated people versus unvaccinated has ever been conducted in the U.S. by CDC or any other agency in the 50 years or more of an accelerating schedule of vaccinations (now over 50 doses of 14 vaccines given before kindergarten, 26 doses in the first year). Most data collected by CDC is contained in the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) database. The VAERS is generally thought to contain only 3 to 5 percent of reportable incidents. This is simply because only some immediate reactions are reported by doctors; but many are not admitted to be reactions to the vaccine. Most importantly, the VAERS numbers are only immediate reactions, which I would place with a few hours to a few weeks. Long-term vaccine-induced diseases and disorders are not recognized by parents or doctors when these conditions develop perhaps a few months to five years or more and would never be realized to come from multiple vaccinations. In other words, many children and adults have diseases and disorders that are vaccine induced and they never suspect they are from the vaccines, as this study indicates.

The comparisons of the health of vaccine-free children with the health statistics of the general population are the same as comparing unvaccinated with vaccinated. This is simply because the general population of U.S. children are nearly 100 percent vaccinated.

    Only four of the unvaccinated 8000 responded with severe autism (0.05%) and these were said to be high mercury cases. On the other hand, I had noticed the results show about a 1% rate for autism in the unvaccinated over 3 years old - about the same as vaccinated children. So I asked Bachmair why the data does not show significantly less. He told me he had invited many autism groups and internet autism lists to participate and thus skewed the results accordingly. If the true rate is 0.5%, I calculated that only 40 extra respondents (above the true average number) responded yes to autism, it would skew the results by a factor of 2. If the true rate is 0.25%, only 60 additional respondents (above the true average number) of the 8000 responded yes to autism, it would skew the results by a factor of 4. So it would not take many respondents from these lists to skew the results significantly. 

The only other bias in this study may include the fact that parents of unvaccinated children are obviously concerned about the health risks of vaccines, and are more likely to make other healthier choices such as feeding their children a much better diet and using more natural remedies and using fewer pharmaceuticals.

Now half the U.S. children suffer from chronic diseases and disorders and 21% are developmentally disabled. Yet the public health system always uses the sacred mantra "vaccine-preventable diseases" when referring to their top public health achievement of mass vaccinations. I think we should be talking more in terms of preventable vaccine-induced diseases.

The survey is still ongoing and you may take the survey here if you have unvaccinated children.

_________________

Other studies were cited by Andreas Bachmair

Salzburger Study

Results: of 1004 unvaccinated children, had

Asthma, 0% (8-12% in the normal population)

A-topic dermatitis 1.2% (10-20% in the normal population)

Allergies 3% (25% in the normal population)

ADHD 0.79% (5-10%) in children

Longterm Study in Guinea-Bissau (1 Kristensen I, Aaby P, Jensen H.:"Routine vaccinations and child survival: follow up study in Guinea-Bissau, West Africa", BMJ 2000; 321: 1435 - 41)

The children of 15,000 mothers were observed from 1990 to 1996 for 5 years.

Result: the death rate in vaccinated children against diphtheria, tetanus and whooping cough is twice as high as the unvaccinated children (10.5% versus 4.7%).

*Continued...*

----------


## donnay

> You realize vaccines work only because we have an immune system, right?



That's a fallacy.  Read the Poison Needle and all the research there.

----------


## donnay

State of health of unvaccinated children

Illnesses in unvaccinated children

http://www.vaccineinjury.info/vaccin...illnesses.html

----------


## RonRules

> The answer to the conumdrum is in the article. They didn't get the same vaccine Americans got.


I was given the Oral vaccine as a kid. Worked for me.

I remember because it was the first time ever that I saw a disposable spoon. I could not believe my eyes that they would pick up a new spoon for every kid!

----------


## RonRules

> Home school, or Catholic school.  Catholics aren't anti-immunizers, and as such can mandate their pupils stay up to date.


No, the wacko anti-vaxers need to stay home.

----------


## RonRules

> Journal of Natural Food and Health


I go there too for all my hard science facts.

----------


## James Madison

> I go there too for all my hard science facts.


Never heard of this journal. You'd think something this big would find its way into 'Science' or 'Nature'.

----------


## RonRules

> The data was collected from parents with vaccine-free children via an internet questionnaire by vaccineinjury.info


That's about as good as internet voting.

----------


## donnay

"The only safe vaccine is the one never used."

----------


## angelatc

> *Since the launch of the Global Polio Eradication Initiative in 1988 the number of reported cases worldwide has fallen from 350,000 to 1,968 - a decrease of over 99%.*


How much has their hygiene changed?  Have all other communicable diseases fallen by a similar amount?

----------


## angelatc

> No, the wacko anti-vaxers need to stay home.


Sorry, but public means that a whole myriad of people doing things you don't agree with or believe in getting together.  It doesn't mean government mandated safe environment.

----------


## angelatc

> I was given the Oral vaccine as a kid. Worked for me.
> 
> I remember because it was the first time ever that I saw a disposable spoon. I could not believe my eyes that they would pick up a new spoon for every kid!


I think min was in a disposable tube.  IIRC they cut the end off, squirted it in my mouth, and then threw it away.  I can almost remember the taste.

----------


## donnay

*New Revelation - The Neurotoxin Far Worse than Mercury...*

By Dr. Mercola

    When it comes to vaccine safety, much of the talk about toxic ingredients focuses on thimerosal (contains mercury) that is added to killed (inactivated) vaccines as a preservative. But vaccines also contain adjuvants -- agents that stimulate your immune system to greatly increase immunologic response to the vaccine – and one of the most toxic is aluminum. Aluminum is a known neurotoxin that is contained in a number of common childhood and adult vaccines and may even exceed the toxicity of mercury in the human body.

    According to a new study published in Current Medical Chemistry, children up to 6 months of age receive 14.7 to 49 times more aluminum from vaccines than the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) safety limits allow.


http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...0921_DNL_art_3

----------


## angelatc

> That's a fallacy.  Read the Poison Needle and all the research there.


LOL! Like I said, no amount of actual science will ever change the mind of the conspiracy nuts.  Right off the bat, I noticed that she isn't a doctor or even a scientist. 




> *The data was collected from parents with vaccine-free children via an internet questionnaire by vaccineinjury.info*


 

Snicker.

----------


## RonRules

> How much has their hygiene changed?  Have all other communicable diseases fallen by a similar amount?


If you're been to Pakistan, you'll probably respond with "no so much".

Also note the relatively recent dates 1988:  350,000 --> 1968, 99% decrease.

I think Pakistan had indoor plumbing in 1988.

----------


## RonRules

> I think min was in a disposable tube.  IIRC they cut the end off, squirted it in my mouth, and then threw it away.  I can almost remember the taste.


Mine was cherry flavor. A bright red liquid on a brand new plastic white spoon.

I was about 7 years old and I was impressed. I wanted more.

----------


## RonRules

> "The only safe vaccine is the one never used."


Keep your wacky videos to 2-3 minutes max. You really want me to watch a 2.5 hour pseudoscience crap while you gingely post opposing comments?

I won't let that happen!

----------


## RonRules

> *New Revelation*
>     When it comes to vaccine safety, much of the talk about toxic ingredients focuses on *thimerosal (contains mercury)* that is added to killed (inactivated) vaccines as a preservative.


Get your facts straight. You know thimerosal was removed a long time ago. You guys were certain it caused autism. It made no difference.

Try again.

----------


## angelatc

> Keep your wacky videos to 2-3 minutes max. You really want me to watch a 2.5 hour pseudoscience crap while you gingely post opposing comments?
> 
> I won't let that happen!


Yeah, I'm not watching it either.   It's amazing that 100 years of documented medical progress means nothing, but a YouTube video - now that's some truth.

----------


## RickyJ

Who cares about a graph some doctor made up? Vaccines contain mercury. That is a fact. Mercury is a known neurotoxin, another fact. 

Any parent knowingly subjecting their kids to shots containing a neurotoxin are unfit parents in my opinion. 

Dr. Whitaker is old and not thinking straight now, but that hardly makes him a dumb person. He spoke out about how bad trans-fats were way before any other doctor I know did.

----------


## James Madison

> "The only safe vaccine is the one never used."


Yeah....getting attacked by a rabid animal, no need to get vaccinated.

----------


## RonRules

Here's the problem:

Real doctors and medical scientists are busy doing real medicine and real science. They don't have time to deal with Anti-Vaxers.

It's like the psychiatrists don't have time to deal with Scientologists. They just ignore them.

Meanwhile the quacks get paid to quack and keep quacking.

I'm here to change that!

----------


## NewRightLibertarian

Honest question about the vaccines that I would like answered by both camps: What about the H1N1 vaccine? Wasn't that pushed on the American people by the government and scientific community and the supposed risk of the disease completely promulgated?




> Real doctors and medical scientists are busy doing real medicine and real science. They don't have time to deal with Anti-Vaxers.


'Real doctors' are probably too busy getting bribes from pharmaceutical companies to shove pills down people's throats

----------


## RonRules

> Who cares about a graph some doctor made up? Vaccines contain mercury. That is a fact. Mercury is a known neurotoxin, another fact.


No they don't. Get a fresh dose of facts.

----------


## angelatc

> Who cares about a graph some doctor made up? Vaccines contain mercury. That is a fact.


Uhm......no, it isn't.

----------


## angelatc

> Yeah....getting attacked by a rabid animal, no need to get vaccinated.


Hey! One or two people have survived without the vaccine.  Therefore, we don't need it.

----------


## RonRules

> Honest question about the vaccines that I would like answered by both camps: What about the H1N1 vaccine? Wasn't that pushed on the American people by the government and scientific community and the supposed risk of the disease completely promulgated?


They went full force against H1N1. That's why millions did not die.

Some claim they overreacted, but I don't mind a three alarm call when my house is on fire.

From Wiki: "This strain is often called swine flu by the public media. This novel virus spread worldwide and *had caused about 17000 deaths* by the start of 2010."

I think you're have a different tune if you kid was one of the 17,000.

The acted brilliantly.

----------


## NewRightLibertarian

> They went full force against H1N1. That's why millions did not die.
> 
> Some claim they overreacted, but I don't mind a three alarm call when my house is on fire.
> 
> From Wiki: "This strain is often called swine flu by the public media. This novel virus spread worldwide and *had caused about 17000 deaths* by the start of 2010."
> 
> I think you're have a different tune if you kid was one of the 17,000.
> 
> The acted brilliantly.


It seems like you're too much of a zealot to see the obvious collusion involved: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...060403034.html

Perhaps you should stop being such a blind believer and examine your own biases for a second before spewing your holier-than-thou bull$#@!

----------


## angelatc

> They went full force against H1N1. That's why millions did not die.
> 
> Some claim they overreacted, but I don't mind a three alarm call when my house is on fire.
> 
> From Wiki: "This strain is often called swine flu by the public media. This novel virus spread worldwide and *had caused about 17000 deaths* by the start of 2010."
> 
> I think you're have a different tune if you kid was one of the 17,000.
> 
> The acted brilliantly.


Maybe, but I don't know of anybody that got the vaccine, and I don't know anybody that got the flu and died either.    I think the problem is that they do this every freaking year.  People eventually start tuning them out.

----------


## RonRules

> Perhaps you should stop being such a blind believer and examine your own biases for a second before spewing your holier-than-thou bull$#@!


17,000 dead people is all I need to know. (I've also seen a number of 18,500 quoted)

Actually, they probably did not act fast and comprehensively enough.

----------


## RickyJ

> Get your facts straight. You know thimerosal was removed a long time ago. You guys were certain it caused autism. It made no difference.
> 
> Try again.


Get your own facts straight! Thimerosal has not been removed from vaccines a LONG time ago. And it is STILL used today in many vaccines in trace amounts.  Damn, you just make stuff up as you go along!

----------


## RickyJ

> Uhm......no, it isn't.


Most of them do. That is a fact.

----------


## NewRightLibertarian

> 17,000 dead people is all I need to know. (I've also seen a number of 18,500 quoted)
> 
> Actually, they probably did not act fast and comprehensively enough.


Ah, I see. Corruption doesn't matter to you as long as people receive an endless amount of shots, whether they're needed or not.

----------


## RickyJ

> No they don't. Get a fresh dose of facts.


Where do your facts come from, .gov? 

Do you also believe in global warming?

Maybe evolution too?

I hope you don't have any kids.

----------


## James Madison

> Where do your facts come from, .gov? 
> 
> Do you also believe in global warming?
> 
> *Maybe evolution too?*


*Facepalm*

Please do not compare evolution to global warming.

----------


## angelatc

> It seems like you're too much of a zealot to see the obvious collusion involved: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...060403034.html
> 
> Perhaps you should stop being such a blind believer and examine your own biases for a second before spewing your holier-than-thou bull$#@!


I'm kind of in the middle.  The Europeans are fundmentally retarded when it comes to medicine.  They'd just as soon let e kid die from strep throat that actually give him an antibiotic.  And it makes sense that the people who research the spread of disease and the use of vaccines would be the best people to consult for data about the use of vaccines to stop the spread of a disease.  

If the government developed a plan with no outside input, the odds that it would be a good plan are pretty slim.  

Getting the corporations to develop a plan pretty much guarantees that it will be a plan that benefits them.

Having nobody develop a plan means people would likely start dying in large numbers before the vaccine became popular.

it's pretty much a no-win situation.

----------


## RonRules

> Get your own facts straight! Thimerosal has not been removed from vaccines a LONG time ago. And it is STILL used today in many vaccines in trace amounts.  Damn, you just make stuff up as you go along!


Here's what the CDC says:
"Since 2001, with the exception of some influenza (flu) vaccines, thimerosal is not used as a preservative in routinely recommended childhood vaccines."

They also say: "There is no convincing evidence of harm caused by the low doses of thimerosal in vaccines, except for minor reactions like redness and swelling at the injection site. However, in July 1999, the Public Health Service agencies, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and vaccine manufacturers agreed that thimerosal should be reduced or eliminated in vaccines as a precautionary measure."

Now what about the fact that you've lost an innocuous preservative? How many perfectly good vaccines were thrown out because of that and how many people died as a result?

Balance the facts. What's the cost-benefit, especially when the "cost" is a minor reactions like redness and swelling at the injection site

----------


## RonRules

> Maybe evolution too?


You'll occasionally see me respond to people like you with: Go Darwin Go!

----------


## angelatc

> Where do your facts come from, .gov? 
> 
> Do you also believe in global warming?
> 
> Maybe evolution too?
> 
> I hope you don't have any kids.


Wow.  Can't disprove what he said, so you try to discredit the source, throw in a strawman, and a personal attack.  

Darwin ftw.

----------


## angelatc

> Most of them do. That is a fact.


Can you cite a source, please?  Perhaps this is just some silly misunderstanding.

----------


## Danke

OP, would you get the series of shots for Anthrax?

----------


## RonRules

> OP, would you get the series of shots for Anthrax?


If I was in the Military, on assignment, yes, or as recommended by the service I was assigned to.

For my somewhat tranquil personal life, no.

----------


## RickyJ

> *New Revelation - The Neurotoxin Far Worse than Mercury...*
> 
> By Dr. Mercola
> 
>     When it comes to vaccine safety, much of the talk about toxic ingredients focuses on thimerosal (contains mercury) that is added to killed (inactivated) vaccines as a preservative. But vaccines also contain adjuvants -- agents that stimulate your immune system to greatly increase immunologic response to the vaccine  and one of the most toxic is aluminum. Aluminum is a known neurotoxin that is contained in a number of common childhood and adult vaccines and may even exceed the toxicity of mercury in the human body.
> 
>     According to a new study published in Current Medical Chemistry, children up to 6 months of age receive 14.7 to 49 times more aluminum from vaccines than the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) safety limits allow.
> 
> 
> http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...0921_DNL_art_3


Nice article by the good doctor. There was never a good reason to use mercury in vaccines in any amount, and there is also not a good reason to use aluminum in any amount. Thinking people can see this is deliberate with one goal in mind, a dumbed down populace!

----------


## osan

> If EVERYONE is vaccinated, the virus is gone. That's why.


Um, no.

Flu viruses are also hosted by animals such as ducks.  You will never  vaccinate every duck on the planet. 

Attempting to force vaccination upon the children of those opposed to it is a great way to get yourself hurt or killed.

----------


## angelatc

> Nice article by the good doctor. There was never a good reason to use mercury in vaccines in any amount, and there is also not a good reason to use aluminum in any amount. Thinking people can see this is deliberate with one goal in mind, a dumbed down populace!


Oh, the irony.

But never mind all that.  Can you please cite your source(s) that show most vaccines still contain mercury?

----------


## Origanalist

> Um, no.
> 
> Flu viruses are also hosted by animals such as ducks.  You will never  vaccinate every duck on the planet. 
> 
> Attempting to force vaccination upon the children of those opposed to it is a great way to get yourself hurt or killed.


He doesn't want to force them, he just wants them excluded from anyplace he or his kids might happen to be.

----------


## RonRules

> Nice article by the good doctor.


Man you guys believe every charlatan that provides a free cancer seminar!  Quack, quack quack!

http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/mercola.html
*FDA Orders Dr. Joseph Mercola to Stop Illegal Claims*

In 2005, the FDA ordered Mercola and his Optimal Wellness Center to stop making illegal claims for products sold through his Web site. The claims to which the FDA objected involved three products:

Living Fuel Rx, claimed to offer an *"exceptional countermeasure" against cancer*, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, autoimmune diseases, etc.
Tropical Traditions *Virgin Coconut Oil, claimed to reduce the risk of heart disease* and has beneficial effects against Crohn's disease, irritable bowel syndrome, and many infectious agents Chlorella, claimed to fight cancer and normalize blood pressure.

In 2006, the FDA sent Mercola and his center a *second warning* that was based on product labels collected during an inspection at his facility and on claims made on the Optimum Wellness Center Web site. This time the claims to which the FDA objected involve four products:

Vibrant Health Research Chlorella XP, claimed to "help to virtually *eliminate your risk of developing cancer in the future.*"
Fresh Shores Extra Virgin Coconut Oil, claimed to reduce the risk of heart disease, cancer, and degenerative diseases.
Momentum Health Products Vitamin K2, possibly useful in treating certain kinds of cancer and Alzheimer's disease.
Momentum Health Products Cardio Essentials Nattokinase NSK-SD, claimed to be "a much safer and effective option than aspirin and other pharmaceutical agents to treating heart disease."
The warning letters explained that the use of such claims in the marketing of these products violates the Federal Food Drug and Cosmetic Act, which bans unapproved claims for products that are intended for curing, mitigating, treating, or preventing of diseases. (Intended use can be established through product labels, catalogs, brochures, tapes, Web sites, or other circumstances surrounding the distribution of the product.)

In 2011, the *FDA ordered Mercola to stop making claims* for thermography that go beyond what the equipment he uses (Medtherm2000 infrared camera) was cleared for. The warning letter said that statements on Mercola's site improperly imply that the Meditherm camera can be used alone to diagnose or screen for various diseases or conditions associated with the breast, they also represent that the sensitivity of the Meditherm Med2000 Telethermographic camera is greater than that of machines used in mammography. The statements to which the FDA objected included:

"Revolutionary and Safe Diagnostic Tool Detects Hidden Inflammation: Thermography"
"The Newest Safe Cancer Screening Tool"
"[b]ecause measuring inflammation through thermal imaging is a proactive, preventative method you can use for detecting disease, which significantly improves your chances for longevity and good health."
Additionally, thermograms provide: "Reliable and accurate information for diagnosis, treatment, and prognosisâ€¦"
"Yes, it's true. Thermograms provide you with early diagnosis and treatment assistance in such problems as cancer, inflammatory processes, neurological and vascular dysfunction, and musculoskeletal injury."
Thermography can benefit patients by detecting conditions including: Arthritis: "[d]ifferentiate between osteoarthritis and more severe forms like rheumatoid." Immune Dysfunction, Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue, "Digestive Disorders: Irritable bowel syndrome, diverticulitis, and Crohn's diseaseâ€¦" and "Other Conditions: including bursitis, herniated discs, ligament or muscle tear, lupus, nerve problems, whiplash, stroke screening, cancer and many, many others." 

The Chicago Tribune has reported that Mercola has not complied with the FDA's order and intends to "fight the FDA . . . if they decide to take it further."

He's got a nice house though:

----------


## Son of Detroit

Refreshing to see actual science represented on RPF.  Just when I had almost given up hope on this place.

Keep up the good fight RonRules.

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## angelatc

> Man you guys believe every charlatan that provides a free cancer seminar!  Quack, quack quack!
> 
> 
> 
> He's got a nice house though:


He rails against chlorine.  I wonder if that's a saltwater pool?   (Betting that it isn't....)

----------


## RonRules

This guy uses homeopathy to cure autism!!

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Ma...nary-or-Quack/

 Each month, nearly two million people click to see the osteopathic physician’s latest musings on the wonders of dietary supplements and minerals (“The 13 *Amazing Health Benefits of Himalayan Crystal Salt*”), the marvels of alternative therapies (“*Learn How Homeopathy Cured a Boy of Autism*”), and his take on medical research, from vaccines (“*Your Flu Shot Contains a Dangerous Neurotoxin*”) to vitamin D (“*The Silver Bullet for Cancer?*”).

Even the Better Business Bureau is on his ass!! Now, that's pretty bad.
"Meanwhile, the Better Business Bureau has tagged Mercola.com with an F rating, its lowest, due in part to customer complaints that the company doesn’t honor its 100 percent money-back guarantee. That black mark isn’t exactly the kind of thing that tends to boost revenues. Hoovers, a division of Dun & Bradstreet, estimates that the privately held Mercola.com and Mercola LLC together brought in just under $7 million in 2010. (A Mercola spokesman didn’t dispute that figure.)"

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## angelatc

> T Hoovers, a division of Dun & Bradstreet, estimates that the privately held Mercola.com and Mercola LLC together brought in just under $7 million in 2010. (A Mercola spokesman didn’t dispute that figure.)"


Wait - you can't be saying that he's in it only for profit, can you?

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## RonRules

Come on, bring' em on guys!

I want more!

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## heavenlyboy34

I'm not a Mercola fanboy, but the FDA is not the greatest source to use in this sort of situation.

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## idiom

You know what they call alternative medicines that have been proven to work? Medicine.

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## RonRules

> Wait - you can't be saying that he's in it only for profit, can you?


Ummm, like yeah.

But isn't Big Pharma much worse?

----------


## Danke

> He rails against chlorine.  I wonder if that's a saltwater pool?   (Betting that it isn't....)


My brother has a pool and doesn't use chlorine.

There are alternatives.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Wait - you can't be saying that he's in it only for profit, can you?


 Even if he were, why is that bad? (assuming what he does is ethical and correct...which I'm not sure of.  I'm neutral on Mercola because of the inconsistency)

----------


## angelatc

> I'm not a Mercola fanboy, but the FDA is not the greatest source to use in this sort of situation.


That's a cheap shot.  If there are facts to be presented, then present them.  Discrediting the source isn't a legitimate argument.  If all the vaccine haters have banded together and tested random samples that show the FDA and the drug manufacturers are lying, then by all means - post those test results.

----------


## angelatc

> My brother has a pool and doesn't use chlorine.
> 
> There are alternatives.


I know, but I don't see a bromine dispenser.  Do you?

----------


## RickyJ

> Can you cite a source, please?  Perhaps this is just some silly misunderstanding.


http://www.vaccinationnews.com/20110...heDarkYazbakFE





> The last sentence of the statement is also somewhat misleading. In fact, the Joint Statement issued by the AAP and the PHS in July 1999 "established the goal of removing the vaccine preservative thimerosal as soon as possible from vaccines routinely recommended for infants.”
> [http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/AAFP-AA...himerosal.htm]
> 
> So in 2011, thimerosal has indeed not been removed from “vaccines”. It has been mostly eliminated from pediatric vaccines with some still containing traces of the preservative. Adult vaccines and a few pediatric inactivated influenza vaccines currently available in the United States contain as much of the preservative as they did before 1999.

----------


## Eagles' Wings

A couple of young mothers I know had to specifically ask their Doc for a single dose, mercury free vax for their infant.  Doc said no problem.  Perhaps a case could be made that the docs simply don't know the full ingredient list - thats where the pharm sales person comes in.   

CONSUMERS BEWARE - Know whats in the meds you are taking and what is in the vax for your little ones.

----------


## angelatc

> Even if he were, why is that bad? (assuming what he does is ethical and correct...which I'm not sure of.  I'm neutral on Mercola because of the inconsistency)


Only because the anti-vaxxers insist that the vaccine manufacturers are the quacks, and are in it only for the money, while quoting Mercola like his motives are entirely altruistic.

----------


## angelatc

> A couple of young mothers I know had to specifically ask their Doc for a single dose, mercury free vax for their infant.  Doc said no problem.  Perhaps a case could be made that the docs simply don't know the full ingredient list - that where the pharm sales person comes in.   
> 
> CONSUMERS BEWARE - Know whats in the meds you are taking and what is in the vax for your little ones.


It was no problem simply because the vaccines do not have mercury in them any more.

----------


## donnay

Vaccines and Medical Experiments on Children, Minorities, Woman and Inmates (1845 - 2007)

Now this is a list:

http://www.newstarget.com/022383.html

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> That's a cheap shot.  If there are facts to be presented, then present them.*  Discrediting the source isn't a legitimate argument.*  If all the vaccine haters have banded together and tested random samples that show the FDA and the drug manufacturers are lying, then by all means - post those test results.


It's perfectly legitimate (according to every debate and logic textbook I'm aware of).  Would you take advice on car problems from a known incompetent and corrupt mechanic?

I'm not a die-hard "vax hater".  I'm simply pro-liberty in medicine.  The advantage that pharmaceuticals have is that they are controlled (we can fairly accurately predict what will happen when administered).  The advantage of "alternative" medicine is lower risk in many cases.  It's a terrible mistake to say there's no place for drugs at all.

----------


## RickyJ

> *Facepalm*
> 
> Please do not compare evolution to global warming.


So which do you believe in, evolution or man made global warming?

Both don't have any facts to stand on.

----------


## angelatc

> http://www.vaccinationnews.com/20110314ThiosalContainingVaccines-I-InTheDarkYazbakFE


I'm thinking she's not actually looking at the ingredient list on the vaccines, because she didn't mention any that actually have mercury in them.  She's claiming, in a roundabout way, that the FDA allows for trace amounts.  However, the vaccines don't have any.

----------


## donnay

Vaccines, Depression and Neurodegeneration After Age 50
Posted by sakerfa on August 5, 2009
http://dprogram.net/2009/08/05/vacci...-after-age-50/

(Russell L. Blaylock, M.D. – 2-22-2008) – It has been estimated that 14.8 million Americans suffer from major depressive disorder and of this number 6 million are elderly. If we include anxiety disorders, which commonly accompany depression, the number jumps to 40 million adults. At a cost of $44 billon dollars a year just for care of the seniors, this impacts the national budget as well.

Depression later in life tends to last longer and be more severe than at younger ages. It is also associated with a high rate of suicide.

Previously, it was thought that major depression was secondary to a deficiency in certain neurotransmitters in the brain, particularly the monoamines, which include serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine. While alterations in these important mood-related neurotransmitters is found with major depression, growing evidence indicates that the primary culprit is low-grade, chronic brain inflammation.

In addition, we now know that inflammatory cytokines can lower serotonin significantly and for long periods by a number of different mechanisms.

MSG and Depression
Researchers have also discovered that most people with major depressive disease (MDD) have higher levels of the neurotransmitter glutamate in their spinal fluid (CSF) and blood plasma. This is the same glutamate found as a food additive-for example, MSG (monosodium glutamate), hydrolyzed proteins, calcium or sodium casienate, soy protein isolate, vegetable protein concentrate or isolate, etc.

Much of the free glutamate in the brain of depressed people comes from within, that is it escapes from special cells within the brain itself (microglia and astrocytes). Free glutamate, that is, existing outside the neurons, is very toxic to brain connections and brain cells themselves — mainly by a process called excitotoxicity.
This connection between high brain glutamate levels and major depression was discovered quite by accident, when researchers observed that the anesthetic drug ketamine could relieve depression for a prolonged period. Ketamine is a powerful blocking drug for a class of glutamate receptors (NMDA receptors).

For quite some time it was known that depression could cause a loss of neurons in the hippocampus of the brain-the area most important for recent memory (declarative memory or working memory), the form of memory most affected in Alzheimer‘s disease.

This shrinkage of the brain usually occurred with long-term depression, yet it was shown, using sophisticated testing, that even without brain shrinkage, memory could be adversely affected. Some antidepressants could not only reverse the memory loss but could reverse the shrinkage as well.

The implication was that the elevated brain glutamate, via excitotoxicity, was destroying brain connections and later killing brain cells in the hippocampus and that the antidepressants were lowering brain glutamate levels. Subsequent studies have confirmed that drugs that block excitotoxicity also reduce depression and that some antidepressants reduce brain glutamate levels.

The Link Between Elevated Brain Glutamate and Inflammation
A tremendous amount of research has now demonstrated the link between chronic low-level brain inflammation, elevated brain glutamate levels and major depression. We know that as we age, the level of inflammatory immune cytokines increase (such as interleukin-1ß (IL-1), IL-6 and TNF-a). That is, the level of inflammation in our body increases, with high levels being seen at the extremes of life — the 80s and 90s.

This progressive elevation in the body‘s inflammation increases our risk of a number of inflammation-linked diseases, such as cancer, arthritis, muscle weakness, fatigue, sleep disturbances, memory loss and confusion. People with Alzheimer‘s and Parkinson‘s disease have even higher levels of these inflammatory cytokines — much higher.

When inflammatory chemicals are elevated in the brain it makes brain cells more vulnerable to a number of toxins, many of which are in the environment. One study demonstrated, using a series of sophisticated techniques, that if brain cells were exposed to low levels of a pesticide there was little toxicity seen and that if you exposed these same brain cells to an immune stimulant alone, little damage occurred.

But if you first exposed the brain cells to the immune stimulant, the same low dose of pesticide could destroy a great number of brain cells.

The importance of this observation was that the vaccine made the brain cells hypersensitive to the toxin so that even in concentrations that normally would do not cause harm, could wiped out most of the neurons. One of the strongest connections between an environmental toxin (pesticides) and a neurological disorder is with Parkinson‘s disease.

The reason it is more common in the elderly is that they have the highest levels of inflammatory cytokines. This also explains the high incidence of Alzheimer‘s disease, which reaches incidences of 50% after age 80.

The link to depression was also serendipitous
Doctors using immune cytokines to treat patients with cancer or hepatitis found that one third of the patients developed major depressive illness within days of the treatment and that it resolved only when the treatment was terminated. Other studies, in which inflammatory cytokine levels were measured in people with major depressive illness, also found most had high levels of these inflammatory chemicals.

To their surprise, they found that many of the antidepressant medications commonly used lowered inflammatory cytokines levels and that patients who failed to respond had the highest level of the cytokines.

So, how is this linked to excitotoxicity?
Neuroscientists have known for some time that inflammatory cytokines cause the brain to release higher levels of glutamate — the more intense the inflammation, the higher the brain glutamate level. The highest levels are found in the prefrontal lobes and limbic system, the areas most related to mood control. MSG also increases brain inflammation.

Vaccination and Brain Inflammation
A great number of studies have shown that when you vaccinate an animal, the body‘s inflammatory cytokines not only increase dramatically, but so do the brain‘s inflammatory chemicals. The brain has its own immune system that is intimately connected to the body‘s immune system. The main immune cell in the brain is called a microglia. Normally, these brain cells are lying throughout the brain in a resting state (called ramified).

Once activated, they can move around, traveling between brain cells like amoeba (called amoeboid microglia).
In the resting state, they release chemicals that support the growth and protection of brain cells and their connections (dendrites and synapses). But when activated, they secrete a number of very harmful chemicals, including inflammatory cytokines, chemokines, complement, free radicals, lipid peroxidation products, and two excitotoxins — glutamate and quinolinic acid.

In essence, these brain immune cells are out to kill invaders, since the body‘s immune system sent an emergency message that an invasion had occurred. With most infections, this phase of activation last no more than a few days to two weeks, during which time the immune system successfully kills off the invaders.

Once that is accomplished, the immune system shuts down to allow things to cool off and the brain to repair what damage was done by its own immune system.

What researchers knew was that during this period of activation, people generally feel bad and that what they experience closely resembles depression — a condition called “sickness behavior“. Most of us have experience this when suffering from a viral illness — such things as restlessness, irritability, a need to get away from people, trouble sleeping, fatigue and difficulty thinking.

Studies have shown that there are two phases to this “sickness behavior”; one in which we have the flu-like symptoms and a later onset of depression-like symptoms that can last awhile. They have also shown that all of these symptoms are due to high levels of inflammatory cytokines in the brain, which come from activated microglia.
A number of studies have also shown that after age 50, people have exaggerated and prolonged “sickness behavior”, much more so than younger people. This is one of the reasons why many elderly hang onto flu symptoms for months after exposure.

There is also another immune phenomenon that plays a major role in vaccine-related brain injury. Researchers discovered that when you vaccinate an animal, the brain microglia immune cells turn on partially (called priming), that is, they are in a state of high readiness. If the immune system is activated again soon after (days, weeks to months), these microglia explode into action secreting levels of their destructive chemicals far higher than normal. This overreaction can be very destructive and make you feel very depressed.

Stimulating your immune system with a vaccine is far different than contracting an infectious illness naturally. Vaccines are made of two components — the agent you wish to vaccinate against — for example, the measles virus; and an immune system booster called an immune adjuvant.

These adjuvants are composed of such things as aluminum compounds, MSG, lipid compounds and even mercury. Their job is to make the immune system react as intensely as possible and for as long as possible.

Studies have shown that these adjuvants, from a single vaccine, can cause immune overactivation for as long as two years. This means that the brain microglia remain active as well, continuously pouring out destructive chemicals. In fact, one study found that a single injection of an immune activating substance could cause brain immune overactivation for over a year. This is very destructive.

Flu Vaccines and an Expanding Vaccine Schedule for the Elderly
Public health authorities and physician societies are in an all out campaign to have every elderly person vaccinated every year with the flu vaccine as well as a growing number of newer vaccines. When I was practicing neurosurgery, the hospitals had an automatic written order on all older patients‘ charts mandating a flu vaccine, unless it was countermanded by the physician, which I always did.

Now, they are giving the shots in malls, tents and every available site they can muster. And worse still, using lies and scare tactics to frighten the elderly into getting the shots (such as the bold lie that 36,000 elderly die of the flu every year).

As you age, your immune system, including that special immune system in your brain, releases significantly more inflammatory immune cytokines than when you were younger. This serves to prime the microglia, as discussed. So, when you get your first flu shot your microglia overreact and does so for a very long period — perhaps years.
Many elderly report that the flu shot gave them the flu. Proponents of vaccines, retort with a condescending laugh; that it is impossible because the flu vaccine contains killed flu viruses. In truth, what these people are reporting is a prolonged, intense “sickness behavior” response to the vaccine. To the body, it is worse than getting the flu.

Remember, no one is recording the number of elderly who die after getting the flu shot, especially if they die months later, which can happen with sickness behavior, especially if they have a preexisting chronic illness or are infirm.

The Shocking Truth
With the elderly already having increased inflammatory cytokine levels both systemically and in their brain, stimulating these primed microglia so that a chronic overstimulation of the brain‘s immune system is triggered, will not only increase their risk of developing one of the neurodegenerative diseases, but will also substantially increase their risk of developing major depression. Remember, this also increases their risk of suicide, and even homicide, dramatically.

Anxiety is a major problem with depression, and vaccinations will greatly worsen the condition. In fact, vaccination, especially multiple vaccinations, will maintain the brain in a state of inflammation that will be self-perpetuating, because the excess release of glutamate in the brain, as well as glutamate in the diet, will further enhance microglial activation and excitotoxicity.

Those who are prone to developing one of the neurodegenerative diseases, such as Alzheimer‘s disease or Parkinson‘s disease will be at a drastically increased risk as we have seen experimentally when even animals exposed to subtoxic concentrations of environmental toxins and vaccinated develop neurologic worsening.
Most people use pesticides in their home, and studies have shown that the concentrations in homes are sufficient to trigger Parkinson‘s disease in susceptible people. Vaccinations, as these studies have shown, will greatly increase that risk. Most doctors are completely unaware of this important research.

You must keep in mind that “health authorities” urge the elderly to get the flu vaccine each and every year. This will keep the microglia in a primed and even activated state continuously. Recently, neurologists announced that the incidence of neurodegenerative disease had been grossly underestimated and that neurological diseases of aging were increasing at a frightening rate. They have no explanation.

Over the last three decades the number of elderly receiving yearly flu vaccines has risen from 20% before 1980 to over 60% today.

If this were not depressing enough, now the public health authorities and medical specialty societies are adding a whole new set of vaccines for those above 50 years of age, including the pneumococcal and meningiococcal vaccines. What is being completely ignored by the promoters of these vaccines is the effect of multiple doses of immune adjuvant that accompany each of these vaccines.

Let‘s say you see your doctor and he talks you into getting the flu vaccine, the pneumococcal and meningiococcal vaccine all during the same office visit. That way, he can save you extra office visits. What your doctor ignores is that he is giving you three doses of powerful immune adjuvant all in one sitting, which means that your body and brain are assaulted by a massive dose of powerful immune activators, which have been proven to activate the brain‘s immune system to dangerous levels, even when given as a single dose.

Proof of this mechanism exists not only in animal studies, but in humans as well.

Mercury and Aluminum
There are other ways that vaccines can cause havoc in the brain. Most vaccines contain aluminum compounds. A multitude of studies have shown that aluminum, especially if combined with fluoride, is a powerful brain toxin and that it accumulates in the brain. With each vaccine injection, a dose of aluminum is given. These yearly aluminum inoculations accumulate not only at the site of the injection, but travel to the brain, where it enters neurons and glial cells (astrocytes and microglia).

A number of studies have shown that aluminum can activate microglia and do so for long periods. This means that the aluminum in your vaccination is priming your microglia to overreact. The next vaccine acts to trigger the enhanced inflammatory reaction and release of the excitotoxins, glutamate and quinolinic acid.

You must also appreciate that any infection, stroke, head injury or other toxin exposure will also magnify this inflammatory brain reaction initially triggered by your vaccines. Studies have now indicated that the more one‘s immune system is activated the more like he or she will suffer from one of the neurodegenerative diseases.
Mercury is also a powerful activator of brain microglia and can do so in extremely low concentrations — in nanomolar amounts. Because of its numerous reactions with sulfhydral compounds in the body (which are ubiquitous), mercury can poison a number of enzymes, both systemically and in the brain. Of special concern is the ability of mercury, especially ethylmercury (the kind found in vaccines called thimerosal) to inhibit the regulation of brain glutamate levels. (It does this by inhibiting the glutamate transfer proteins that control the removal of glutamate from outside the neuron, where it does its harm.)

In essence, mercury, in the concentrations being injected with vaccines, triggers excitotoxicity, increases brain free radicals and lipid peroxidation products, inhibits critical brain enzymes, inhibits antioxidant enzymes and impairs DNA repair ability. The flu vaccine contains enough mercury to do all of these things. You must keep in mind that each flu vaccine adds to the mercury supplied by your last vaccine — that is, it is progressively accumulating in your brain.

In addition, the aluminum in the vaccines also primes microglia, and when combined with mercury is infinitively more toxic to the brain. Now, if this is not enough, we also have to consider the contamination of vaccines with foreign viruses and viral components. Studies have shown that this is not a rare occurrence, with up to 60% of vaccines being contaminated in one study of several major manufactured vaccines.

When confronted with this fact, vaccine proponents just shrug their shoulders and say — “We don‘t think these things are harmful.”

Yet, the studies say otherwise.
It has been found that insertion of viral fragments, not even the whole virus, is sufficient to trigger the brain‘s microglial system and subsequent excitotoxicity, leading to progressive brain degeneration. This is accepted to be the mechanism by which the HIV virus causes dementia in a great number of AIDS victims. Fragments of the virus (gp140 and Tat) are engulfed by the microglia and this triggers chronic brain inflammation and excitotoxicity. The herpes virus and measles virus can do the same thing.

Danger of Live Virus Vaccines
A number of studies have shown that live viruses used in vaccines can enter the brain and reside there for a lifetime. One such study, in which autopsied elderly were examined for the presence of the measles virus, found that 20% of the brains had live measles viruses and 45% of other organs were infected. These viruses were highly mutated, meaning that they could be just as potent as other measles viruses, but could be even more virulent.
Worse, is that in most cases they cause a smoldering destruction of tissues without the obvious symptoms of infection, which has been shown in a number of studies.

Live virus vaccines are made using a process to attenuate the pathogenic or disease-causing virus by passing it through a series of cultures. The problem is that the reverse can also happen within the body. A number of studies have shown that when we produce free radicals in our body (and we produce tons of such radicals over a lifetime), it mutates the viruses residing in our tissues. This is what was found in the autopsy study I referred to above.

Likewise, these viruses can trigger brain inflammation and degeneration, which has been shown in a number of studies — that is, there exist a chronic degeneration of the brain over years or decades. Because it is so far separated from the time of the original vaccine, physicians just attribute it to old age or heredity. Anything but the vaccines.

Virologists are also concerned that such mutated live viruses can also infect other people, leading to outbreaks of disease totally unsuspected by health authorities.

Conclusion
Current recommendations by the CDC for adult vaccinations include a total of 14 separate inoculations with infectious agents and powerful immune adjuvants. To be fair, some of these are for special medical risks and conditions, such as high-risk behaviors, illegal drug use and HIV infected individuals.

If we eliminate these, women will be exposed to 10 inoculations and men 7, should they follow CDC guidelines, which doctors follow.

According to CDC recommendations, multiple vaccinations for a single disease are separated by no more than 4 weeks, which is close enough together to produce priming and subsequent hyperactivation of brain microglia. We have seen that this can trigger a smoldering process of brain inflammation and excitotoxicity that can not only result in depression, anxiety and high suicide rates, but can increase one‘s risk of developing one of the neurodegenerative diseases as well.

We have also seen that in many cases a person will be injected with several vaccines during a single office visit and that this means their body is exposed to a very large dose of immune adjuvant. Compelling studies, using many animal species as well as humans, have shown that this overactivates brain inflammatory mechanism that can last for years.

In addition, several additives to vaccines, such as mercury and aluminum, are powerful brain toxins that are known to accumulate in the brain over years and can trigger brain inflammatory/excitotoxic mechanisms. Vaccine contaminants, such as bacteria, mycoplasma and viral fragments can also produce prolonged brain inflammation and neurodegeneration.

Because the elderly already have high levels of inflammatory cytokines, they are at a special risk. The very young (babies and small children) are at a high risk because their brains are undergoing the most rapid development at the very time they receive the greatest number of vaccinations — the first two years of life. In fact, they receive 22 vaccines during the first year of life, one of which contains a full pediatric dose of mercury.

Like adults, they receive many inoculations (up to 9 inoculations) in one office visit. This is insane and in my estimation, criminal.

Nasal flu vaccines are even worse, because they introduce a live virus into the nasal passages, which can then travel along the olfactory nerves, which leads to the very part of the brain first and most severely affected by Alzheimer‘s disease. A number of studies have shown that viruses and bacteria can pass along this route to the brain.

In fact, in one study scientists sprayed a bacterium into the nose of mice and observed a rapid development of Alzheimer‘s type plaques in the mouse‘s brain.

So What Should Older People Do?
First, studies have shown that the primary cause of immune deficiency in the elderly is purely dietary. The carotenoids, such as beta-carotene, alpha-carotene, canthaxanthin, lutein and lycopene significantly enhance the immunity of the elderly. Zinc, magnesium and selenium are also essential. One should also avoid omega-6 oils (the vegetable oils: corn, safflower, sunflower, canola, soybean and peanut oils), since they greatly enhance inflammation and depress immunity. The EPA component of fish oils (omega-3 oils) is also a powerful immune suppressant. DHA is not.

A healthy immune system means that you can fight infections efficiently and rapidly.
Regular exercise, such as brisk walking or weight exercises three to five times a week also boost immunity, while extreme exercise suppresses immunity. Sugar and refined carbohydrates also suppress immunity and inflame the brain. Exercise protects the brain from aging effects and from degeneration.

Adequate sleep is also vital to both brain health and good immune function.

Pubic health officials and spokesmen for the major medical societies are lying to the public concerning vaccine safety. We now possess sufficient information from a great number of studies to halt this disastrous vaccine policy. We are facing a medial disaster in this country, which is already well on its way.


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15.   Broderick PA, et al. Interleukin-1a alters hippocampal and norepinephrine release during open field behavior in Sprague-Dawley animals: differences from the Fawn-Hooded animal model of depression. Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biology 2002; 26: 1355-1372.
16.   Katayama Y, et al. Detection of measles virus nucleoprotein mRNA in autopsied brain tissues. J General Virology 1995; 76: 3201-3204.
17.   Nicolson GL et al. High frequency of systemic mycoplasma infections in Gulf War Veterans and civilians with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. J Clin Sci 2002; 9: 525-529.
18.   Blaylock RL. Interaction of cytokines, excitotoxins, and reactive nitrogen and oxygen species in autism spectrum disorders. JANA 2003; 6: 21-35.
19.   Blaylock RL. Central role of excitotoxicity in autism. JANA 2003; 6: 7-19.
20.   Blaylock RL. Food additive excitotoxins and degenerative brain disorders. Medical Sentinel 1999; 4: 212-215.
21.   Blaylock RL. Chronic microglial activation and excitotoxicity secondary to excessive immune stimulation: Possible factors in Gulf War Syndrome and Autism. J Amer Phys Surg 2004; 9: 46-51.
22.   Pilc A, et al. Mood disorders: regulation by metabotropic glutamate receptors. Biochem Pharmacol 2007; (Epub ahead of print)
23.   Palucha A, Pilc A. The involvement of glutamate in the pathophysiology of depression. 2005; 18: 262-268.
24.   Paul IA, Skolnick P. Glutamate and depression: clinical and preclinical studies. Ann NY Acad Sci 2003; 1003: 250-272.
25.   Pittenger C, et al. The NMDA receptor as a therapeutic target in major depressive disorder. CNS Neurol Disorders Drug Targets 2007; 6: 101-115.
26.   Magaki S et al. Increased production of inflammatory cytokines in mild cognitive impairment. Exp Gerontol 2007; 42: 233-240.
27.   Gao H-M et al. Synergistic dopaminergic neurotoxicity if the pesticide rotenone and inflammogen lipopolysacchride: relevance to the etiology of Parkinson‘s disease. J Neurosciences 2003; 23: 1228-1236.
28.   Holmes C et al. Systemic infection, interleukin 1ß, and cognitive decline. J Neurol Neurosurgery Psychiatry 2003; 74: 788-789.
29.   Godbout JP et al. Exaggerated neuroinflammation and sickness behavior in aged mice after activation of the peripheral innate immune system. The FASEB J 2005; 19: 1329-1331.
30.   Perry VH et al. The impact of infection on the progression of neurodegenerative disease. Nature Rev Neuroscience 2003;4: 103-112.
31.   Feiring B et al. Persisting responses indicating long-term protection after booster dose with meningococcal group B outer membrane vesicle vaccine. Clin Vaccine Immunology 2006; 13: 790-796.
32.   Vaccine Excepients and Media Summery Center for Disease Control and Prevention. (also the source for recommended vaccines for adults and children).
Source: Mercola Articles

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> So which do you believe in, evolution or man made global warming?
> 
> Both don't have any facts to stand on.


The theory of evolution (in its modern form) has plenty of evidence to support it.  Does that mean it's "true"?  No.  Scientists used inductive reasoning (always fallacious) to reach their conclusions about that.  It's not necessarily false either.  There simply exists enough evidence to call it a scientific theory.  AGW, on the other hand, is total bull$#@!.

----------


## RonRules

> I'm not a Mercola fanboy, but the FDA is not the greatest source to use in this sort of situation.


I need to re-state my position on the FDA that I posted on another thread a while back.

The FDA should only be involved in safety, not efficacy. The private market should determine efficacy, like they used to do before the FDA took it upon themselves to measure efficacy.

So if you have the sniffles and you think Echinacea will cure it, then that's your problem and the FDA should not be involved.

If some quack sell hemlock to fix hemorrhoids, then the FDA should step in.

Now if some quack promises a cancer cure with grass clippings, then the FDA should also intervene because that patient will likely delay (postpone) a real treatment with proven efficacy.

However, since the FDA is currently tasked to evaluate efficacy, all they should do is to publish their findings. I don't think that armed FDA agents should ever raid a provider that has safe products for non-life threatening ailments, regardless how ineffective.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> I need to re-state my position on the FDA that I posted on another thread a while back.
> 
> The FDA should only be involved in safety, not efficacy. The private market should determine efficacy, like they used to do before the FDA took it upon themselves to measure efficacy.
> 
> So if you have the sniffles and you think Echinacea will cure it, then that's your problem and the FDA should not be involved.
> 
> If some quack sell hemlock to fix hemorrhoids, then the FDA should step in.
> 
> Now if some quack promises a cancer cure with grass clippings, then the FDA should also intervene because that patient will likely delay (postpone) a real treatment with proven efficacy.
> ...


Where do you find the authority (constitutional or otherwise) to allow the FDA to do this?  There used to be this thing called _caveat emptor_, and it worked quite well.  There has always been and always will be quacks.  There are better ways to deal with them than State Violence.

----------


## RonRules

> Vaccines, Depression and Neurodegeneration After Age 50
> Posted by sakerfa on August 5, 2009
> http://dprogram.net/2009/08/05/vacci...-after-age-50/
> 
> (Russell L. Blaylock, M.D. – 2-22-2008)


Baylock is a major quack!  Quack, quack, quack!

Look what he says:
"Blaylock has also urged avoidance of the swine flu (H1N1) vaccination, which he claims is more dangerous than the infection itself. In various alternative media outlets, Blaylock has given advice on what he feels an individual should do if faced with mandatory vaccination.[19] Current research indicates that an effective vaccine is a vital tool in protecting the public and that the new H1N1 vaccine is both safe and effective."

http://www.skepdic.com/blaylock.html
"Despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, Blaylock maintains that vaccines cause Lou Gehrig's disease (amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, or ALS, a disease of the nerve cells in the brain and spinal cord that control voluntary muscle movement), Parkinson's, and autism.4"

----------


## RonRules

> Where do you find the authority (constitutional or otherwise) to allow the FDA to do this?  There used to be this thing called _caveat emptor_, and it worked quite well.  There has always been and always will be quacks.  There are better ways to deal with them than State Violence.


I'm trying to cut their workload by 90% and you're still not happy?

Efficacy is what's difficult to prove. Let the free market decide that.

Strictly from a constitutional standpoint you're right, but there are other places to make cuts first than the FDA safety branch.

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> It was no problem simply because the vaccines do not have mercury in them any more.


I need a lesson in internet citing.  On the nvic.org site there is info about the amount of thimerisol in many vaccines, especially flu.  It seems the the gov agencies, ie CDC only suggested taking it out.  California discontinued mercury in 2006, not 2001.

----------


## donnay

*Historical Facts Exposing The Dangers and Ineffectiveness of Vaccines*

Compiled by Ian Sinclair
http://www.vaccinationdebate.com/about.html



FAIR USE NOTICE:

This may contain copyrighted (© ) material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. Such material is made available for educational purposes,

to advance understanding of human rights, democracy, scientific, moral, ethical, and social justice issues, etc. It is believed that this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in Title 17 U.S.C. section 107 of the US Copyright Law.
This material is distributed without profit.

- In 1871-2, England, with 98% of the population aged between 2 and 50 vaccinated against smallpox, experienced its worst ever smallpox outbreak with 45,000 deaths. During the same period in Germany, with a vaccination rate of 96%, there were over 125,000 deaths from smallpox.
(The Hadwen Documents)

- In Germany, compulsory mass vaccination against diphtheria commenced in 1940 and by 1945 diphtheria cases were up from 40,000 to 250,000.
(Don't Get Stuck, Hannah Allen)

- In the USA in 1960, two virologists discovered that both polio vaccines were contaminated with the SV 40 virus which causes cancer in animals as well as changes in human cell tissue cultures. Millions of children had been injected with these vaccines. (Med Jnl of Australia 17/3/1973 p555)

- In 1967, Ghana was declared measles free by the World Health Organisation after 96% of its population was vaccinated. In 1972, Ghana experienced one of its worst measles outbreaks with its highest ever mortality rate.
(Dr H Albonico, MMR Vaccine Campaign in Switzerland, March 1990)

- In the UK between 1970 and 1990, over 200,000 cases of whooping cough occurred in fully vaccinated children. (Community Disease Surveillance Centre, UK)

- In the 1970's a tuberculosis vaccine trial in India involving 260,000 people revealed that more cases of TB occurred in the vaccinated than the unvaccinated.
(The Lancet 12/1/80 p73)

- In 1977, Dr Jonas Salk who developed the first polio vaccine, testified along with other scientists, that mass inoculation against polio was the cause of most polio cases throughout the USA since 1961.
(Science 4/4/77 "Abstracts" )

- In 1978, a survey of 30 States in the US revealed that more than half of the children who contracted measles had been adequately vaccinated.
(The People's Doctor, Dr R Mendelsohn)

- In 1979, Sweden abandoned the whooping cough vaccine due to its ineffectiveness. Out of 5,140 cases in 1978, it was found that 84% had been vaccinated three times!
(BMJ 283:696-697, 1981)

-The February 1981 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association found that 90% of obstetricians and 66% of pediatricians refused to take the rubella vaccine.

- In the USA, the cost of a single DPT shot had risen from 11 cents in 1982 to $11.40 in 1987. The manufacturers of the vaccine were putting aside $8 per shot to cover legal costs and damages they were paying out to parents of brain damaged children and children who died after vaccination.
(The Vine, Issue 7, January 1994, Nambour, Qld)

- In Oman between 1988 and 1989, a polio outbreak occurred amongst thousands of fully vaccinated children. The region with the highest attack rate had the highest vaccine coverage. The region with the lowest attack rate had the lowest vaccine coverage.
(The Lancet, 21/9/91)

- In 1990, a UK survey involving 598 doctors revealed that over 50% of them refused to have the Hepatitis B vaccine despite belonging to the high risk group urged to be vaccinated.
(British Med Jnl, 27/1/1990)

- In 1990, the Journal of the American Medical Association had an article on measles which stated " Although more than 95% of school-aged children in the US are vaccinated against measles, large measles outbreaks continue to occur in schools and most cases in this setting occur among previously vaccinated children."
(JAMA, 21/11/90)

- In the USA, from July 1990 to November 1993, the US Food and Drug Administration counted a total of 54,072 adverse reactions following vaccination. The FDA admitted that this number represented only 10% of the real total, because most doctors were refusing to report vaccine injuries. In other words, adverse reactions for this period exceeded half a million!
(National Vaccine Information Centre, March 2, 1994)

- In the New England Journal of Medicine July 1994 issue a study found that over 80% of children under 5 years of age who had contracted whooping cough had been fully vaccinated.

The CDC states that 135 children died during the 2003-2004 flu season.
59 of these children had received their flu shots.

- On November 2nd 2000, the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) announced that its members voted at their 57th annual meeting in St Louis to pass a resolution calling for an end to mandatory childhood vaccines. The resolution passed without a single "no" vote.
(Report by Michael Devitt)

Fair Use Notice Title 17 U.S.C. section 107 of the US Copyright Law.
This material is distributed without profit.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> I'm trying to cut their workload by 90% and you're still not happy?
> 
> Efficacy is what's difficult to prove. Let the free market decide that.
> 
> Strictly from a constitutional standpoint you're right, but there are other places to make cuts first than the FDA safety branch.


I suppose you could make the pragmatarian-ish argument for going after the most evil entities first (like the MIC)-but I maintain that lesser evil is still evil and should be rooted out when the opportunity arises.

----------


## RonRules

This thread would not be complete without this Penn & Teller video:

*Penn and Teller on Vaccinations*



1 minute 31 seconds that totally expresses what I've been trying to say for the last two hours.

----------


## RonRules

> *Historical Facts Exposing The Dangers and Ineffectiveness of Vaccines*
> 
> Compiled by Ian Sinclair


Should I google Sinclair to see if he's a quack too?

----------


## angelatc

> It's perfectly legitimate (according to every debate and logic textbook I'm aware of).  Would you take advice on car problems from a known incompetent and corrupt mechanic?
> 
> I'm not a die-hard "vax hater".  I'm simply pro-liberty in medicine.  The advantage that pharmaceuticals have is that they are controlled (we can fairly accurately predict what will happen when administered).  The advantage of "alternative" medicine is lower risk in many cases.  It's a terrible mistake to say there's no place for drugs at all.


It's either an _ad hominem_  or a genetic fallacy.   I forget which - forgive me, as it's been 20 years since I sat in a logic class, and a quick Google didn't refresh my memory as to the difference.

I think of myself as pro-liberty too. I want no part of government-mandated vaccines, but that's not a statement of  my belief on the effectiveness of the vaccines.  I didn't know anybody who had the H1N1 flu, but if I was watching Facebook and Twitter, and saw it getting closer to my circles, I probably would have gone for the vaccine.

----------


## donnay

> It was no problem simply because the vaccines do not have mercury in them any more.


Mercury In Vaccines Was Replaced With Something Even MORE Toxic 

The short, eye-opening eBook linked below is titled Aluminum in Vaccines -- a Neurological Gamble, by Neil Miller, director of the Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute. It documents the hazards associated with aluminum-laden vaccines. Children are receiving high concentrations of aluminum in their shots. This well-documented neurotoxin may be more dangerous than mercury.

Vaccines containing high concentrations of neurotoxic aluminum were added to the child immunization schedule when several vaccines containing mercury were removed. Two-month old babies now receive 1,225 mcg of aluminum from their vaccines -- 50 times higher than safety levels! Although the FDA, CDC and World Health Organization are aware of the dangers, they expect parents to play Russian roulette with their children. 

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...ore-toxic.aspx

----------


## Eagles' Wings

To RonRules: 

You've got to be kidding - you consider a psa from Penn and Teller an authentic source of info?  And you are calling other authors quacks?

----------


## Danke

> This thread would not be complete without this Penn & Teller video:
> 
> [1 minute 31 seconds that totally expresses what I've been trying to say for the last two hours.


Whoa.  If Penn & Teller say it is so, I'm convinced...


Ever heard of quitting (in your own mind anyway) while you're ahead?

----------


## donnay

THE VACCINATION RACKET
http://www.whale.to/b/hoax1.html

----------


## angelatc

> Baylock is a major quack!  Quack, quack, quack!
> 
> Look what he says:
> "Blaylock has also urged avoidance of the swine flu (H1N1) vaccination, which he claims is more dangerous than the infection itself. I"


I seem to recall that Dr. Ron Paul said pretty much the same thing.

----------


## angelatc

> Mercury In Vaccines Was Replaced With Something Even MORE Toxic 
> 
> The short, eye-opening eBook linked below is titled Aluminum in Vaccines -- a Neurological Gamble, by Neil Miller, director of the Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute. It documents the hazards associated with aluminum-laden vaccines. Children are receiving high concentrations of aluminum in their shots. This well-documented neurotoxin may be more dangerous than mercury.
> 
> Vaccines containing high concentrations of neurotoxic aluminum were added to the child immunization schedule when several vaccines containing mercury were removed. Two-month old babies now receive 1,225 mcg of aluminum from their vaccines -- 50 times higher than safety levels! Although the FDA, CDC and World Health Organization are aware of the dangers, they expect parents to play Russian roulette with their children. 
> 
> http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...ore-toxic.aspx


Mercola again. ROTFL.

----------


## donnay

"Drug companies are not here to bring health to the population but to scam them on one level for vast amounts of money, by treating the symptoms and not addressing the cause."

    -Sir William Ossler, MD (1849-1919)

----------


## donnay

"The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures the disease." — Voltaire (1694-1778)

----------


## donnay

"When the government has the power to make medical decisions for us, we, in essence, accept that the state owns our bodies."

--US Congressional Representative Ron Paul

----------


## donnay

"And we have made of ourselves living cesspools, and driven doctors to invent names for our diseases."

-- Plato

----------


## donnay

"If we doctors threw all our medicines into the sea, it would be that much better for our patients and that much worse for the fishes."

-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, M.D.

----------


## donnay

"At present, intelligent people do not have their children vaccinated, nor does the law now compel them to. The result is not, as the Jennerians prophesied, the extermination of the human race by smallpox; on the contrary more people are now killed by vaccination than by smallpox."

--George Bernard Shaw (August 9, 1944, the Irish Times )

----------


## angelatc

> I need a lesson in internet citing.  On the nvic.org site there is info about the amount of thimerisol in many vaccines, especially flu.  It seems the the gov agencies, ie CDC only suggested taking it out.  California discontinued mercury in 2006, not 2001.


We've stated over and over again that some of the flu vaccines still have thermisol in them.   Please link to the nvic.org page that shows there is still thermisol in many vaccines.

----------


## donnay

*Myth busted: Vaccinations are not immunizations* 

Tuesday, May 15, 2012 by: *Craig Stellpflug*

There is only one kind of immunity and that is natural immunity which is achieved by battling the infectious diseases itself. Vaccination is merely the artificial triggering of temporary responses to manmade pathogens. Vaccines are both harmful and dangerous and are leading to generations of humans with no natural defenses to disease.

Vaccines do not provide long-term immunity; only temporary at best. In vaccines, an antigen is injected into the body to produce a reaction and the immune system responds in the form of antibodies, but antibody presence does not confer immunity. People still catch the diseases that they are vaccinated against. Vaccines actually skip the normal immune responses to activate killer cells which can trigger an overproduction of cytokines in response to the toxic vaccine adjuvants and can damage tissues and organs and even stop the heart and block air pathways.

Vaccines should never be called immunizations because that is a misnomer. Immunity and vaccinations are two different subjects altogether. In fact, breast milk is so potent with immune energizing effects in the infant that researchers at the CDC recommend women withhold breastfeeding their children in order to boost the "effectiveness" of childhood vaccines. The paper claims that women should stop breastfeeding long enough for the man-made poison to work on artificial/temporary "immunity."

There is no such thing as a "side effect"
After-effects of vaccines are only followed for a very short time. Effects that are not seen for 30 years will not even be associated with the vaccine. Immunizations are contributing to the lowering of immunity along with the spread of auto-immune diseases such as arthritis and even AIDS throughout the world. Research clearly shows that aluminum mixed into vaccines carries a risk for autoimmunity, long-term brain inflammation, and subsequent neurological complications and may have profound and widespread adverse health complications. Many vaccines contain both aluminum and trace amounts of mercury. When you mix these 2 metals together it causes Extreme Synergistic Toxicity.

The facts:
As vaccinated disease rates go down (but not necessarily as a result of toxic vaccinations), the rate of chronic disease goes up in lock-step. Vaccines, as they are commonly given, destroy the natural immunity process and accelerate the auto-immune disease process.

Deaths from measles in 1900 were 13 per 100,000 people. In 1948: less than one. Measles vaccines introduced in 1963 but took full credit for what they never did - eliminate measles. Japanese health authorities realized that early inoculations were causing crib deaths so they postponed them until the 24th month and SIDS virtually disappeared along with whooping cough (pertussis) during the first two years of babies' lives. Instead of preventing whooping cough the DPT promotes it as well as SIDS. Reuters recently reports that according to the CDC, the number of pertussis cases is growing - in the fully vaccinated population!

The recent Bachmair vaccine study reveals that the allergy rate in vaccinated children is more than double the rate in unvaccinated ones. Vaccinated children are also nearly eight times more prone to develop asthma or chronic bronchitis than unvaccinated. Furthermore, vaccinated kiddos suffer from more neurodermatitis, herpes, otitis media, hay fever, hyperactivity, scoliosis, epilepsy and seizures, migraine headaches, thyroid disease, and SIDS than unvaccinated children. Vaccinated kids historically also have more measles than unvaccinated kids

Doctor after doctor will tell you that vaccinations have reduced the incidence of many infectious diseases but they have no real proof. In fact, all the epidemical evidence shows that disease rates rise after vaccines - in the vaccinated population. Should we trust them just on their word? Make an informed decision about you and your child's health.

Sources for this article include:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20442687
Tomljenovic L and Shaw CA. Aluminum vaccine adjuvants: Are they Safe? Current Medicinal Chemistry. 2011; 18: 2630-2637.
http://www.flcv.com/hgsynerg.html

About the author:
Craig Stellpflug is a Cancer Nutrition Specialist, Lifestyle Coach and Neuro Development Consultant at Healing Pathways Medical Clinic, Scottsdale, AZ. http://www.healingpathwayscancerclinic.com/ With 17 years of clinical experience working with both brain disorders and cancer, Craig has seen first-hand the devastating effects of vaccines and pharmaceuticals on the human body and has come to the conclusion that a natural lifestyle and natural remedies are the true answers to health and vibrant living. You can find his daily health blog at www.blog.realhealthtalk.com and his articles and radio show archives at www.realhealthtalk.com

----------


## donnay

"Modern medicine is a negation of health. It isn't organized to serve human health, but only to serve itself as an institution. It makes more people sick than it heals."
—Ivan Illich, author Medical Nemesis

----------


## donnay

"I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."  —Leo Tolstoy

----------


## RonRules

> "If we doctors threw all our medicines into the sea, it would be that much better for our patients and that much worse for the fishes."
> 
> -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, M.D.


Since you seem to want to start a quote battle, I'll use Jonas Salk as responses:

*The reward for work well done is the opportunity to do more.*
Jonas Salk

*There is hope in dreams, imagination, and in the courage of those who wish to make those dreams a reality.*
Jonas Salk

*My attitude was always to keep open, to keep scanning. I think that's how things work in nature. Many people are close-minded, rigid, and that's not my inclination.*
Jonas Salk

Quotes about Salk

*The work of Dr. Salk is in the highest tradition of selfless and dedicated medical research.* ~ Dwight D. Eisenhower

The work of Dr. Salk is in the highest tradition of selfless and dedicated medical research. He has provided a means for the control of a dread disease. By helping scientists in other countries with technical information; by offering to them the strains of seed virus and professional aid so that the production of vaccine can be started by them everywhere; by welcoming them to his laboratory that they may gain a fuller knowledge, Dr. Salk is a benefactor of mankind.

*His achievement, a credit to our entire scientific community, does honor to all the people of the United States.*
 ~ Dwight D. Eisenhower

----------


## angelatc

> "At present, intelligent people do not have their children vaccinated, nor does the law now compel them to. The result is not, as the Jennerians prophesied, the extermination of the human race by smallpox; on the contrary more people are now killed by vaccination than by smallpox."
> 
> --George Bernard Shaw (August 9, 1944, the Irish Times )


That's a pretty $#@!ed up quote.  Without digging into the numbers, I would assume that prior to the vaccine, thousands died from smallpox, compared to perhaps 100 that died from the side effects of the vaccine.    


And lets not forget that smallpox has now been eradicated.  I suppose that the full-on world-wide vaccine push just coincidentally lined up with a worldwide jump in hygiene though.

----------


## Revolution9

> ABSOLUTELY NOT!
> 
> Man, this is going to be a long day!
> 
> Even if you're on my side, I won't let you get away with ANY crap!
> 
> Let Randi explain you Homeopathy:


Ya know he just got busted and he is a fraud that always changes conditions when he is about to have to pay out. I think he was busted for something heinous. I only remember thinking..it figures..this guy is a clown and you trot him out as the spokesperson for vaccines? Pfft.

Rev9

----------


## angelatc

It's frustrating to see opinion passed off as fact here.  

Smallpox was a horrible disease that killed millions of people over thousands of years. Babies weren't even baptized until after they caught it and survived. I think that 10% of the babies in some parts of Europe died from it.

I can't believe anybody in their right mind would argue that the vaccine did more harm than good.   That's just $#@!ed up.

----------


## Revolution9

> Not only my kids, but my cat is vaccinated.
> 
> I got my first flu shot last year and I'll be doing this yearly. It's great no yearly flu.
> 
> On the other hand, I don't want YOUR KIDS BACTERIA and VIRUSES on MY kids.


I don't want your headspace control freaking other lives.

Takes two to tango eh? You seem to view people..children.. as dirty, filth ridden bacteria and virus covered idiots. Nice guy you must be. Stay away from others children and do not infect them with this mind disease and filthy thinking you are trying to spread. Is there is vaccine for that except for rebuttals like this?

Rev9

----------


## angelatc

> Ya know he just got busted and he is a fraud that always changes conditions when he is about to have to pay out. I think he was busted for something heinous. I only remember thinking..it figures..this guy is a clown and you trot him out as the spokesperson for vaccines? Pfft.
> 
> Rev9


It was his boyfriend that got busted. He was living in the US under a false name, forged passport and all.

----------


## RonRules

> To RonRules: 
> 
> You've got to be kidding - you consider a psa from Penn and Teller an authentic source of info?  And you are calling other authors quacks?


I've met Penn several times and listened to most his various radio and TV programmes. I've listened to every single episode of his radio show and watch all the Bull$#@! episodes.

I think I know Penn well enough to post him in this thread as an authority on the ridiculousness of vaccines causing autism. He knows this topic better than anyone I know.

His other partner (rarely seen on camera), Michel Goudeau has an autistic child. Penn totally understands the problem.

I have yet to meet or hear a single TV personality that is more informed about science and critical thinking than Penn Jillette. Teller is well informed too and you'll see that when you get to talk to him. 

So yes and absolutely yes, Penn Jillette has a far better critical thinking mind than any of the quoted quacks in this thread.

----------


## RonRules

> Ya know he just got busted and he is a fraud that always changes conditions when he is about to have to pay out. I think he was busted for something heinous. I only remember thinking..it figures..this guy is a clown and you trot him out as the spokesperson for vaccines? Pfft.
> 
> Rev9


Randi busted for what?  What the hell are you talking about?

Randi is one of my heros.

You may be mistaken with Uri Geller that Randi busted in the worst way.

----------


## Revolution9

> LOL! Like I said, no amount of actual science will ever change the mind of the conspiracy nuts.  Right off the bat, I noticed that she isn't a doctor or even a scientist. 
> 
>  
> 
> Snicker.


The fellow that helped me build The Great Fish sculpture and his brother were given polio shots in 53. In 54 they both contracted polio. Will recovered. His brother died at age 20 or 21. Try snickering at Will.

Rev9

----------


## Revolution9

> Yeah....getting attacked by a rabid animal, no need to get vaccinated.


It isn't really a vaccine. You get it after you have been bitten.

Rev9

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> We've stated over and over again that some of the flu vaccines still have thermisol in them.   Please link to the nvic.org page that shows there is still thermisol in many vaccines.


On the front page of nvic.org, choose vax ingredients, then DTap and it shows that Sanofi uses mercury.

Health Dept of the State of Minnesota clearly states that trace amounts of thimerisol are still used.  So, the designation "mercury-free" on single dose vax.  

As I said, a young mother I know asked her doctor to check the label and he chose the one that said "Mercury-free".  No problem in asking for this people.

----------


## RonRules

> Ya know he just got busted and he is a fraud


Instead of making up stuff about Randi, why don't you watch the video. You should come out realizing that homeopathy is the most insane excuse for a medication.

----------


## donnay

> That's a pretty $#@!ed up quote.  Without digging into the numbers, I would assume that prior to the vaccine, thousands died from smallpox, compared to perhaps 100 that died from the side effects of the vaccine.    
> 
> 
> And lets not forget that smallpox has now been eradicated.  I suppose that the full-on world-wide vaccine push just coincidentally lined up with a worldwide jump in hygiene though.


I already posted the stats on smallpox, Angela.  You are just too impatient and disinterested to find that information.  Eradicated due to sanitation and hygiene.

If the following factors are useful in controlling contagious disease:

    Sanitation. (Includes clean water, clean air, clean food, clean environment.)
    Quality nutrition, year around, not just seasonable.
    Hygiene.
    Insect control.
    Belief that one is immune.
    Joy, optimism, thankfulness and confidence, and all other factors which make for rational scientific living, also known as "Godly living".
    Quarantine.

   Does vaccination belong in this above list? 

Sanitation Vs. Vaccination - The Smallpox & causes, by Dr. Hadwen Origin of

"Since Edward Jenner demonstrated the use of cowpox vaccine against smallpox in 1796, vaccinations against smallpox were started. Despite this, a smallpox epidemic swept England in 1839 and killed 22,081 people."

"In 1853 the Government made smallpox vaccinations compulsory, but the incidence of the disease kept increasing, ..." 

http://www.vaclib.org/intro/present/






> A strong challenge to this now popular view, is reflected in the post-campaign findings of medical researchers like Buttram and Hoffman:
> 
>     Most people probably credit the smallpox vaccine with playing the major role in recent eradication of smallpox throughout the world, but let us examine the facts. In the article 'Vaccines a Future in Question,' statistics showed that less than 10 percent of children in developing countries have received vaccines.
> 
> 
> 
> They went on to comment that with this level of coverage, the WHO campaign was not a real factor in the eradication. Data obtained in their broad based research also led them to conclude that "mass smallpox vaccination was not necessary for the eradication of smallpox.110
> 
> http://www.whale.to/vaccines/obomsawin2.html




Other sources:
http://vactruth.com/2010/07/23/fact-...anything-ever/
http://vactruth.com/2011/03/28/news-...a-raises-fear/

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## Danke

> On the front page of nvic.org, choose vax ingredients, then DTap and it shows that Sanofi uses mercury.
> 
> Health Dept of the State of Minnesota clearly states that trace amounts of thimerisol are still used.  So, the designation "mercury-free" on single dose vax.  
> 
> As I said, a young mother I know asked her doctor to check the label and he chose the one that said "Mercury-free".  No problem in asking for this people.


Yep, docs are clueless and believe the bs propagated.

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## Revolution9

> That's a cheap shot.  If there are facts to be presented, then present them.  Discrediting the source isn't a legitimate argument.


But you just did that with Mercola. 

Rev9

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## angelatc

> The fellow that helped me build The Great Fish sculpture and his brother were given polio shots in 53. In 54 they both contracted polio. Will recovered. His brother died at age 20 or 21. Try snickering at Will.
> 
> Rev9


I think the polio vaccine was oral.

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## RonRules

> Health Dept of the State of Minnesota clearly states that trace amounts of thimerisol are still used.  So, the designation "mercury-free" on single dose vax.


There are trace amounts of plutonium in your mouth right now.

Do you really think that vaccine companies take pleasure to put mercury in vaccines to kill babies?

When you hear the work "trace amount", find out what that amount is, find out what the normal environmental level is, find out what the toxicity level is and when you're all done, go eat some sushi.

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## angelatc

> But you just did that with Mercola. 
> 
> Rev9


He doesn't present any facts that I can tell.

----------


## donnay

*Vaccinations*
Facts every parent should know

by Susan DeSimone (From Healing Newsletter Vol. 13 No.4)

One benefit of working in the holistic health field is having access to information that is rarely mentioned in the mainstream media. Two books that have had a major impact on me are, A Shot in the Dark by Harris Coulter and Barbara Loe Fisher, and How to Raise a Healthy Child in Spite of Your Doctor by Robert Mendhelson, M.D. These books reveal a disturbing reality: vaccinations are sometimes ineffective and may carry with them serious risks to our children's health.

To be honest, I was not entirely surprised by these revelations. A few years ago, I worked with a nurse practitioner who lost 80% of her hearing after receiving an MMR (Measles, Mumps, Rubella) shot as a child. It was then that I realized vaccinations could have disastrous side-effects – a fact that is rarely, if ever, publicized by most pediatricians.

I spent many hours researching the subject of vaccinations for this article, and while it is certainly not my intention to frighten or dissuade parents from vaccinating their child, I feel it is important to share the information I have discovered on this very complex and controversial subject.

Most parents don't think twice about the possibility of complications which may arise following an injection. Some may feel uneasy about this invasive practice, but feel pressured by pediatricians and laws which mandate vaccinations for enrollment in daycare centers and schools. The truth is, exemptions exist in each state. There are religious exemptions, medical exemptions, and some states offer what is known as a philosophical or personal belief exemption.

Whether you choose to vaccinate your child or not, it is clear that your decision must be an informed one. But if you ask your pediatrician for information, keep this caveat in mind: the statistics your doctor will provide you with are quite biased and are not an accurate representation of actual vaccine related injuries. “Only the most blatant and undeniable adverse events caused by vaccines are officially recognized. The hundreds, or thousands of autoimmune responses and long-term neurologic effects that result in permanent disabilities are ignored and denied in the headlong effort to vaccinate at any cost,” says Randall Neustaedter, OMD and author of The Vaccine Guide.

Proponents of vaccines are quick to cite the polio vaccine and the eradication of smallpox as being the two great benchmarks of vaccination. Those who oppose vaccination, however, argue that infectious disease mortality rates in the U.S. and England declined steadily before the advent of vaccinations due to improved sanitation, hygiene and diet. If these two vaccinations were responsible for the decline of polio and the eradication of smallpox, how did these epidemics end at the same time in European countries who refused to vaccinate against the diseases?

Even the WHO (World Health Organization) has admitted, disease and mortality rates in Third World countries have no direct correlation with immunization procedures or medical treatment, but they are closely related to the standard of hygiene and diet. A 1973 issue of Scientific American revealed the same finding : that “over 90% of all contagious disease was eliminated by vastly improved water systems, sanitation, living conditions and transportation of food.” Mass vaccinations did not appear on the scene until a century after the decline in infectious diseases started (1850-1940), but inoculations were, and still are given full credit.

If vaccines are so effective in preventing disease why have epidemics occurred around the world following mass vaccination programs? In the Philippines for example, “after ten years of compulsory inoculation against smallpox (25 million shots) over 170,000 got smallpox and 75,000 deaths were recorded between 1911 and 1920” (from the Townsend Letter for Doctors article “Are Vaccines Generally Detrimental to the Human Defense System,” Feb/Mar 1994).

While health and medical officials who develop and promote vaccinations accept the “occasional” adverse/fatal reactions as the price that must be paid in order to gain control over infectious disease, there is a small but growing number of physicians who feel that vaccines may be a contributing factor in the increase of immunologic disorders in the United States and worldwide as well. These physicians point out that common ear, sinus, throat and bronchial infections are occurring at a rate unknown in earlier generations. Allergic diseases such as eczema and asthma are increasing in both severity and frequency. Millions of young adults are affected by Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and autoimmune diseases are also on the rise. “These are fearful diseases such as cancer, leukemia, rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis, Lou Gehrig’s disease, lupus erythematosus, and the Guillian-Barre syndrome,” writes Dr. Mendelsohn ( in How to Raise a Healthy Child).

Under the current vaccination schedule proposed by the American Academy of Pediatrics, children should receive 16 injections between the ages of 0 and 18 months. It has always been taken for granted that an infant's immune system has an unlimited capacity to respond to these vaccines, but in reality, a newborn's immune system is highly undeveloped and does not become fully mature until the child is 12 years old.

In order for the immune system to develop properly, it must be challenged naturally through exposure to viral and bacterial microorganisms. These microbes enter the system through the mucosal surfaces of the body, including the gastrointestinal, respiratory and genitourinary tracts, at the rate of about once every 6 weeks. In most cases of exposure the child does not become ill.

The mechanics of vaccination to build immunity, on the other hand, is quite unnatural. Rather than space exposure to a relatively minuscule level of microorganisms in a gradual manner, massive quantities of antigens are introduced into the body through a series of vaccinations that are given right in a row over a short period of time. All vaccines, with the exception of the OPV (oral polio vaccination) are injected directly into the bloodstream, by-passing the mucosal immune system known as the secretory IgA. The secretory IgA is the first in a series of defensive levels within the immune system. It serves as a buffer, filtering microbes so that the impact of these invading organisms is greatly reduced once it reaches the bloodstream. The IgA allows the antigen to be removed in the same manner in which it arrived – through the mucosal barrier – by sneezing, coughing and sweating. So a vaccine that has been injected “gives the body no warning, no generalized inflammatory response, no chance to recognize, duplicate or defend itself against future challenges from typical antigens,” writes Dr. Mendelsohn in How to Raise a Healthy Child In Spite of Your Doctor.

With this background information in mind, I myself tend to agree with Neustaedter's hypothesis: “the combined effects of massive, repeated antigenic stimulation from vaccines, which short-circuit the process of natural immunity and which are given at an extremely vulnerable time of life, cannot help but have adverse effects on the immunologic system of the child, possibly leaving this system crippled in its ability to protect the child throughout life.”

It is worth mentioning that many doctors themselves reject immunizations (see “Rubella Vaccine and Susceptible Hospital Employees: Poor Physician Participation,” Journal of American Medical Association, Feb. 20, 1981). Perhaps they know something we don't. Maybe they know that most vaccines are cultured in contaminated animal tissue, or that vaccines contain known carcinogenic material such as mercury and formaldehyde. Maybe they realize that the thymus gland of children who live in vaccinated populations atrophies much more, and much faster than in children who have been naturally exposed to antigens.

While pediatricians may be fully aware that vaccines can be a health risk, they are not willing to share this information with parents before they have their child inoculated. Parents should know that the accompanying insert to Connaught Labs’ DPT shot reads: “Sudden Infant Death Syndrome has been reported following administration of DPT. The significance is unclear…85% of SIDS cases occur in the period 1 through 6 months of age, with the peak incidence at age 2 to 4 months.” That's a far cry from a fever, soreness or redness – which are the only side effects doctors usually mention. The Institute of Medicine has determined that DPT causes brain damage at the rate of one case for every 62,000 fully immunized kids, killing at least two to four infants a year, (it may be even higher - more like 900 a year due to its misclassification as SIDS), as reported by an article on vaccinations featured in the December 1996 issue of Money magazine. Sadly, it seems as if pharmaceutical companies are more interested in making profits than making safe products. According to Money magazine’s 1996 article, “for decades, American pharmaceutical companies have known how to produce the safer (acellular) DPT vaccine but decided not to bring it to market because it would increase production costs and lower the drug's 50% or higher profit margins.” Although this safer version of DPT, known as DaPT, is now sold in the United States, how many children had to die, or suffer from brain injuries before it was made available?

The vaccine industry is big business. “Worldwide revenues of nearly $3 billion are expected to more than double to $7 billion over the next five years as more vaccines are developed. Vaccine revenues are estimated at $1 billion a year in the US alone. This is up from $500 million in 1990, a 200 percent increase over six years. The cost to fully immunize a child has risen from $107 in 1986 to $367 in 1996, a 243 percent increase over ten years.”

In 1986, our federal government guaranteed that the vaccine industry would forever remain in the black by creating the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act. Under this Act, parents receive compensation for children adversely affected by vaccines. Such action on the federal government's part gives pharmaceutical companies carte blanche – giving them the enviable position of marketing and selling their goods without having to shoulder any of the liability for them. When pharmaceutical companies could no longer get insurance coverage, our government stepped in and devised this convenient program which is funded by us via a tax which is tacked onto the cost of the vaccination. So now pharmaceutical companies have little incentive to make safer products. Since its inception, the government has paid out $633 million from this fund. They have established a limit of $250,000 in cases where a child has died as a result of being vaccinated. These payments are not very easy to come by, and the government's definition of a vaccine related death or injury is quite narrow. Only those reactions which are immediately noticeable following an injection are covered, such as: SIDS, viral meningitis, mental retardation, epilepsy and Guillian Barre. Litigation can carry on for years, which is not only costly, but traumatic for (Continued on next page “Vaccination”) the parents as well.

In September of 1997, the First Inter-national Public Conference was held in Alexandria, VA. This conference was sponsored by the National Vaccine Information Center, a child advocacy organization that promotes vaccine safety and informed choice. The presenters included eminent immunologists, neurologists, geneticists, biochemists, and legal experts, as well as practitioners of alternative medicine. Some of the key questions and possible courses of action raised at the conference are noted here to the right. Hopefully these suggestions will not fall on deaf ears. Parents have a right to safe vaccines for their children, as well as unbiased information on the risks as well as the benefits of each vaccine that is given to their child.

  I recently gave birth to a healthy, happy baby girl. A few weeks after returning home from the hospital I started receiving “The Welcome Addition Club” Newsletter from the makers of Similac Infant Formula. (Needless to say, my baby will never taste a drop of formula in her lifetime!). It pains me to read the “Ask Your Doctor” column, especially when it gives advice such as: “Always follow the vaccination schedule recommended by your baby's doctor…Reactions to vaccinations, such as a mild fussiness or fever, may occur but are rarely serious.”

Well, I've done my homework, and beg to differ with the American Academy of Pediatrics. The Food and Drug Administration's Adverse Events Reporting System collected nearly 32,000 reports of adverse reactions following vaccination, with more than 700 deaths in a 39 month period ending in November 1993. The DPT vaccine was associated with more than 12,000 of these reports, including 471 deaths. (source: The American Chiropractor, Nov/Dec 1994). Bear in mind, as mentioned in part one of this article, since the FDA reporting system is voluntary, only 10% of actual reactions are ever reported – and the FDA concurs with this figure.

Numbers however, are cold and remote – they don't convey the feelings of emotional devastation experienced by parents and family members following one of these “rare” incidents. The following excerpt from an article of Money magazine (Dec. 1996) gives statistics a human face:

“When Miriam Silvermintz of Fairlawn, N.J. took her seven month old son Nathan to the pediatrician for his third series of vaccinations on Feb. 18, 1991, she was thrilled to hear the doctor say her baby was growing beautifully. Just five hours later, as Nathan lay in his crib, he shrieked in pain. Terrified, Miriam ran in and cradled her baby in her arms. Nathan collapsed, his eyes rolling back in his head, as he suffered a severe seizure. 'We called 911, and they worked on him for 45 minutes,' says Miriam, 'but I knew when I held him in my arms that he was dying.'

What killed Nathan? 'When I first called the pediatrician after the ambulance arrived, he said Nathan was probably having a reaction to his DPT shot,' Miriam recalls. 'But when Nathan died, the doctor did an about-face and said it had nothing to do with the vaccine.' Nathan's death was officially attributed to a congenital heart defect. But Miriam, now 36, and her husband Steven, couldn't shake the feeling that Nathan's death was somehow linked to the shot.”

Barbara Loe Fisher, Co-Founder and President of the National Vaccine Information Center told of similar cases at a forum in 1996:

“In 1988, Tina and her husband watched their healthy three month old son, Evan, get his first DPT shot and within hours, react with a swollen leg, bouts of high pitched screaming, and a fever. In the following days he was unusually lethargic, then lost head control and, finally, suffered a seizure, collapsed and died. The coroner listed Evan's death as heart failure but told his parents that Evan was a victim of sudden infant death syndrome.

In 1994, Tina gave birth to a healthy baby girl. When nine month old Miranda got her second DPT and HIB vaccinations, within 48 hours she woke her parents up with a scream that ended in a loud shriek. Tina ran to her daughter's crib and found her in the middle of a seizure that was followed by a collapse. Tina gave her baby CPR to try to revive her but Miranda died at the hospital an hour later. This time the pathologists concluded and the coroner agreed, the cause of death was a fatal reaction to DPT and HIB vaccines.”

Aside from obvious reactions such as these, there are also very subtle changes which occur after a child has been vaccinated. These changes were observed by Viera Scheibner, a retired Principal Research Scientist living in Australia, and her late husband Leif Karlsson, a biomedical engineer who specialized in patient monitoring systems [for more on Dr. Scheibner see Healing Newsletter, Vol. 12 No. 4]. Together they designed Cotwatch, a breathing monitor for babies who were thought to be at risk for “cot death” (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome). “Initially we did not know about the controversy surrounding vaccination,” explained Scheibner in the Aug/Sep. 1991 edition of Natural Health. “We merely observed that vaccination was the single greatest cause of stress in small babies, as indicated by the standard Cotwatch equipment, and also the single greatest factor preceding cot death in a large number of cases. We concluded that the timing of 80% of cot deaths occurring between the second and sixth months is due to the cumulative effect of infections, the timing of immunizations and some inherent specifics in the baby's early development.” Scheibner conducted one study which focused on the breathing patterns of children who received the highly reactive DPT vaccine. She commented that researchers who concluded there was no correlation between SIDS and DPT “had little idea what they were looking at or what to look for. Most researchers arbitrarily accept that only deaths within 24 hours of administration of the vaccines can be attributed to the effect of the vaccine. Yet, babies may and do die for up to 25 or more days after vaccination, still as a direct consequence of the toxic effects of the vaccines. How do we know this? Because of the observed repetition of the pattern of flare-ups of Stress-Induced Breathing in a number of babies over a long period of time.”

Scheibner's book, Vaccination: 100 Years of Orthodox Research Shows Vaccines Represent a Medical Assault On the Immune System, summarizes 30,000 pages of medical papers. In addition to the causal link of the DPT to SIDS, Scheibner concludes that there is no evidence that vaccines are effective and that they are in fact highly noxious. Based in her findings, Scheibner was able to assert that “if vaccination’s were to be suspended, the cot death rate [SIDS] would at least be halved.”

It is clear that the DPT is the most dangerous of all childhood vaccinations. The culprit is the pertussis microbe (the 'P' element), known as Bordetella pertussis. In a study published in the Feb. 1979 issue of Pediatrics, where parents were asked to observe their children for reactions after the pertussis vaccine, only seven percent were unable to observe a reaction. There have been numerous studies conducted on the DPT indicating that there is “a high potential for damage to the neurological system, and that many cases of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and learning disabilities may be attributed to the pertussis vaccine itself,” stated Neil Miller, author of numerous books and articles on the topic of vaccination, in a 8/24/93 radio interview. A recent survey published in the Journal of the American Medical Association brought to light the fact that children receiving the pertussis vaccine were six times more likely to develop asthma than those not receiving the vaccine.

The American Academy of Pediatrics might do well to study the history of the pertussis vaccine in the two countries with the lowest infant mortality rates in the world: Japan and Sweden. During the 70s, despite a mass vaccination program, an outbreak of pertussis occurred in Sweden. This prompted medical officials to ban the DPT vaccine in 1979 after surveys revealed that 84% of children who had contracted whooping cough had been fully immunized against this disease. Although the rate of whooping cough has increased since 1979, deaths have remained rare. Sweden now has the second lowest infant mortality rate.

In 1975, Japan raised the age of the DPT vaccination to age 2, and since then there has been a steady decline in sudden infant death syndrome and spinal menningitis. Japan has the lowest infant mortality rate in the world, while the international ranking for the U.S., according to a 1993 Center for Disease Control report is an appalling 25.

While it is certainly not as reactive as the DPT, the OPV or Oral Polio Vaccine is also steeped in controversy. The OPV contains the live polio virus, while another form of the polio vaccination, the IPV or inactivated Polio Vaccine contains a killed form of the virus. Jonas Salk, inventor of the IPV, testified before a Senate sub-committee that since 1961, all cases of polio in the U.S. were caused by the Oral Polio Vaccine.

What many parents may not realize is that the live virus can be transmitted through the child's stool for up to eight weeks. Caretakers of children who have recently received the OPV are advised to thoroughly wash their hands immediately after changing the child's diaper. (The IPV may have some adverse effects, but it does not cause polio in recipients).

The fact that polio can be transmitted via a child's feces should be cause for alarm for those living in developing nations where living conditions are unsanitary and sewage systems are minimal or non-existent. The OPV is used in these countries because each dose is about $3 less than the IPV, but the potential for a polio epidemic in nations such as India and Bangladesh is very real. Public Health officials in these countries seem to have blinded themselves to the enormous risk involved following the administration of this live vaccine.

The OPV has also caused Guillain-Barre syndrome, which is a nerve condition characterized by numbness and weakness of the limbs, but what is most frightening about both the OPV and the IPV, is the fact that, since they are cultured in monkey tissue, they may also contain live monkey (simian) viruses. An article in the March 1992 issue of the Lancet provided evidence that “the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) may have been created after simian immunodeficiency virus (SIV) entered the human population when green monkey kidney tissues infected with SIV were used to produce polio vaccines. [This article] pointed out that scientists at the Food and Drug Administration and [those within the industry] suspected as early as the 1950’s and knew by the 1970’s that polio vaccines had been contaminated with simian viruses and that at least one of these monkey viruses - SV40 - was later found to cause leukemia and cancerous tumors in lab animals,” stated Barbara Loe Fisher at a workshop on Simian Virus - 40 in January, 1997. She continued: “California microbiologist Howard B. Urnovitz, Ph.D. …provided compelling evidence at the Eighth Annual Houston Conference on AIDS in America that the human immunodeficiency virus Type 1 (HIV-1) is a monkey hybrid that was created after more than 320,000 Africans were injected in the late 1950’s with experimental live oral polio vaccines contaminated with live simian immunodeficiency virus (SIV).

Pointing out that endogenous retroviruses can easily recombine with fragments of other viruses, both human and animal, and form new hybrid viruses called chimeras, Dr. Urnovitz explained how SIV could have recombined with the normal genes of the Africans who received the contaminated vaccines, and created a monkey-human hybrid known as HIV-1.” The Measles, Mumps and Rubella or MMR is also cultured in animal tissue, namely chick embryos. With the understanding that a virus can incorporate genetic material from the animal tissues in which they are incubated, the child who receives the MMR may also be receiving other animal viruses. These viruses, in theory, may make the child susceptible later on to immune disorders, including autoimmune diseases.

Harris L. Coulter, Ph.D, medical history scholar and president of the Center for Empirical Medicine in Washington, D.C. reported in April of 1997 to the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Appropriations that the MMR as well as the DPT may be the root causes of diabetes in the U.S. “Both untreated rubella and the rubella vaccine (part of the MMR inoculation) produce immune complexes that can damage the pancreas and significantly reduce the levels of insulin that organ is able to secrete…As a vaccine, there are now many case reports directly linking the onset of diabetes - sometimes within only a month's time - with receipt of the mumps vaccination,” said Coulter. I myself have seen this happen. Last January, a good friend of mine took her 17 month old son to the doctor for his first MMR injection. One month later, after coming down with a virus that he had difficulty recovering from, he was diagnosed with type I diabetes. Type I diabetes is supposedly a hereditary disease, but neither parents are diabetic, and it is virtually non-existent on either side of the family.

There are other long-term consequences of the MMR that also need to be considered. “Widespread measles vaccinations seem to be shifting the incidence of the disease into older age groups; 80 percent of cases now occurring in people aged 10 to 19 and with atypical, often untreatable symptoms,” writes Richard Leviton in the Jul/Aug. edition of Health Freedom News. Although mass vaccination of the MMR has caused a dramatic decline in the incidence of measles, outbreaks still occur in older populations and in infants born to women whose immunity from vaccination has waned. The July 1995 issue of Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine describes the failure of the MMR vaccine in a highly vaccinated high school population in New Mexico. Of all those who contracted measles, 97% had received the measles vaccine.

The issue of whether or not to vaccinate is contentious to say the least. Those in favor of mass vaccination programs contend that it is an issue of public health - it is the only means of preventing widespread epidemics. But activists like Barbara Loe Fisher believe that the price paid to protect the public at large is too great. As she puts it: “ the epidemiologists look at mass vaccination the way a military general studies a battle. A general knows he must sacrifice men to take a hill. This is how government health officials see mass vaccination. They start getting the idea that some children are expendable. I cannot think of any other instance in our society where we say it's ok to kill children, to have them brain damaged, because it's for the greater welfare of society.”

It is no secret among those in the holistic health field that the germ theory paradigm needs to be reconsidered. Many of us realize that health is not merely the absence of disease. Rudolph Virchow, German pathologist and founder of cellular medicine has stated, “If I could live my life over again, I would devote it to proving that germs seek their natural habitat - 'diseased' tissue - rather than being the cause of 'diseased' tissue.” Dr. Gerson taught us that disease is merely a symptom of a weakened immune system. He knew that the best way to attain healthy immunity was through eating a healthy diet of organically grown foods – foods that are unrefined and free of preservatives. In add-ition to a proper diet, one cannot discount the value of adequate rest and sanitary living conditions, not to mention lots of love! “When we build our children's immunity this way,” notes Dr. Harold Buttram in the Winter 1985 issue of Mothering magazine, “many diseases will pass as subclinical infections without acute illness, or if there is illness, it will be relatively mild.”

It is important for parents to realize that they do have a choice – it is up to us to decide which vaccinations our children will receive – if any.

Source: http://www.gerson.org/healing/articl...inations2.html

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## NewRightLibertarian

Unbelievable to see RonRules citing the FDA as a quality source of information. These are the guys who allow cancer-curing marijuana out of the hands of dying patients while approving mindbending pills to be shoved down the throats of children. I guess it goes to show you that people are just desperate to do the bidding and regurgitate the bile of those in power, no matter how evil they are whether it's in the name of 'tolerance', 'diversity', 'fightin' terrorism' or in this case 'science'

Now let me go through some Vegas acts to find credible sources of information for a scientific discussion. Maybe I can get Celine Dion's take on vaccine science and present it here while badmouthing other sources at the same time, that makes a whole lot of sense

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## libertyjam

> This.
> 
> But the OP has a point... once herd immunity is compromised we can all find ourselves at risk.


Herd Immunity. The flawed science and failures of mass vaccination. 

Suzanne Humphries, MD
        June, 2012
                                       International Medical Council on Vaccination
www.vaccinationcouncil.org

excerpt: "Paul Offit smiled and PLAYED THE CARD while peddling his book on the comedy central channel as Steven Colbert jokingly said, if the vaccines work so good for you, why do I need one?  Dr. Mark Segal PULLED IT on fox news as Mary Holland, JD eloquently described the issue of vaccine injury and loss of legal recourse in an era of forced and mandated vaccines.  In addition to flaunting several false allegations and sound bites, Dr. Segals well-rehearsed rant brushed right over the issue at hand, the fact that victims of vaccine injury have no legal right to sue  and instead launched into his agenda of scaring the listeners by parroting the herd immunity dogma.    

I believe that the hype about herd immunity creates a wall of hostility between those who vaccinate and those who delay some vaccines, avoid certain vaccines, or quit vaccinating altogether. 

Since the beginning of vaccination, there is little proof that vaccines are responsible for eradicating disease even when herd immunity vaccination levels have been reached. Yet celebrity doctors rattle on about your unvaccinated neighbor being the biggest threat to your child - as if vaccination was the only way to avoid an illness or stay healthy.  

To make matters worse, this intimidation to vaccinate is played out in an environment where WHO and vaccine manufacturers have been accused of scandalous misrepresentations of disease risk or vaccine safety and effectiveness.  If the allegations against these entities is true, which I believe they are, we are being systematically altered, sickened and manipulated by powerful governing bodies that either dont understand the risks of vaccination, or dont care.  We are told that the health of the herd is more important than any single life, and you now have no conventional legal recourse when your little sheep is wounded by any type of vaccine, no matter how it happened.  

The money factor
The population of the world is expanding over the past 200 years where vaccines have been used, and this makes obtaining herd immunity even more expensive and impossible today than ever. How many billions of people would need to be vaccinated how many times to eradicate just one illness based on the theory of vaccine herd immunity? How much would that cost? Consider the cost of vaccines, refrigeration, vaccinators, and hazardous waste removal. Just look at chicken pox vaccine at $7.25 per dose for the CDC discounted price.  Each child gets 2 doses. The US census shows 25.7 million children between 0-5 years.  Just the cost of the vaccines to vaccinate each of those children, not including the lifetime of boosters, refrigeration, administration and waste, costs the government over 372 million dollars. 

In India, doctors are concerned about profit margins being protected before human lives, with recommendations to vaccinate every child with more expensive, newer vaccines.  Dr Jacob Puliyel describes the problems he sees.

An analysis in the Lancet showed how the Pneumococcal vaccine reduces
only 4 cases of pneumonia per 1000 children. The cost for vaccinating
1000 children comes to $ 12,750. Treating the 4 cases of pneumonia in
India using WHO protocol, would cost $ 1. The pneumococcus strains
prevalent in India are nearly all sensitive to inexpensive antibiotics like
penicillin. In the US which has been using the pneumococcal vaccine for some years now, there has been a strain shift  strains covered in the vaccine are being replaced by other strains. Ominously the new strains are more antibiotic resistant. Vaccine has simply made the problem of pneumococcal disease worse. Yet this vaccine is being pushed in Africa and Asia.It is not about lives lost in poor countries  it is all about the cash register. These organizations and their sponsors have profit margins to protect. Ethics is not a major issue with them.


The profits to vaccine manufacturers and the government must be enormous. 

The CDC is in the vaccine business. Members of the CDC's Vaccine Advisory Committee accept payment from vaccine manufacturers. Sanofi-Pasteur, Merck and others specifically seek to employ CDC staff once their contracts have run out. Relationships have included sharing a vaccine patent, owning stock in a vaccine company, payments for research, payment to monitor manufacturer vaccine tests, and funding academic departments. Thanks to a 1980 law, the CDC currently holds dozens of licensing agreements. It also has numerous ongoing projects to collaborate on new vaccines.  


The science?
What science is there behind the belief that the herd can be protected by vaccinating enough of the sheep? Or that any disease has been eradicated from the planet thanks to a vaccine? 

Recently, I was told by a vaccinator that herd immunity is just a definition and so it cant actually be wrong.  But the assumption of a 95% vaccination rate giving the herd a chance at eradication or higher levels of health - can be wrong.  Let us go back in time and see just where the idea behind this definition probably comes from.  Dr A.W. Hedrich in 1929, studied the natural occurrence of measles.  

On the basis of field surveys of various workers, it is inferred that approximately 95% of the children in cities suffer measles attacks by the fifteenth birthday.   

Before vaccines, outbreaks of measles were observed in 2 to 3 year cycles, and 95% of the population developed immunity by the age of fifteen. 

The original idea that vaccination could strengthen the herds immunity, assumed that there was only one clinical event, and that one natural exposure equated life -long immunity.  But this was not the case back when the diseases circulated freely.  Vaccinators miss the point that the body defends most efficiently as a result of ongoing re-exposure. They try to mimic this with boosters. But the vaccination plan leaves the elderly(due to vaccine-induced immunity being short-lived and antigens taken out of circulation) and the very young(due to lack of transferrable maternal immunity) more vulnerable to several diseases that were not a threat to them before vaccination.  In the case of chicken pox, vaccination renders the elderly more apt to shingles infections, because the herd has now lost the continued and benign re-exposures to children with chicken pox.

Instead of figuring out why a very small number develop dangerous invasive conditions, vaccine enthusiasts recommend vaccinating as often as possible in order to protect against something that would never be a danger to the vast majority of those vaccinated. If you constantly swab throats of healthy people most would be carrying and circulating supposed pathogens, as commensals.   At any one time in any society, neisseriae(the bacteria isolated in some cases of meningitis) is being circulated, yet most of the time, nothing happens, other than the body notes it, defends against it, and the host has no idea that they even carried it.  But now that vaccines for as many types as possible have been developed, the vaccine is the answer to the problem. This is typical for diseases today.  

Measles
It is well documented that prior to vaccination, cycles of natural infection added to the herds immunity. 

The formal demonstration that both maternal antibodies and early exposure to infection are required for long-term protection illustrated that constant re-infection cycles have an essential role in building a stable herd immunity.   

In a population that is not constantly exposed to the infection during early infancy under the immunologic umbrella of maternal antibodies or vaccinated thoroughly a serious risk of re-emerging infections may arise.   

Vaccination creates a quasi-sterile environment that opens up the possibility of disease outbreaks. 

Attempts to eradicate measles virus or poliovirus eliminates antigen exposure of infants to these pathogens.  Such quasi-sterile epidemiological situations may actually increase the risk of outbreaks. 

We know this is possible because there have been eruptions of measles in the USA in populations that were 100 percent vaccinated.  

The affected high school had 276 students and was in the same building as a junior high school with 135 students. A review of health records in the high school showed that all 411 students had documentation of measles vaccination on or after the first birthday, in accordance with Illinois law. 

Within the scope of vaccination, when a quasi-sterile situation is created, and measles breaks out in the midst, the only solution within that paradigm is to vaccinate more people, more often.  This is a backwards solution to the problem when considering who remains susceptible even in the face of full compliance: infants and non-immune adults. Susceptible age groups have essentially traded places since vaccinating.   What used to happen with measles is that infants were protected by maternal antibodies, adults were protected by continued exposure, and infected children handled the disease normally and became immune for long periods of time.  So, while measles vaccines have decreased the expression of measles infections, it has not necessarily improved the bigger picture.  And certainly there are numerous troubles with the side effects of the vaccine.  

Prior to vaccination, mothers were naturally immune to measles and passed that immunity to their infants via placenta and breast milk. Vaccinated mothers may have vaccine immunity, which is not the same immunologically, as natural immunity.  One of the major differences in the vaccine-induced immunity is that it cannot be passed from mother to infant.  

Since most vaccines are delivered by injection, the mucous membranes are bypassed and thus blood antibodies are produced but not mucosal antibodies. 
Mucosal exposure is what contributes to the production of antibodies in the
mammary gland. A childs exposure to the virus while being breastfed by a naturally immune mother would lead to an asymptomatic infection that results in long-term immunity to that virus. Vaccinated mothers have lower levels of virus-specific antibodies in the serum and milk compared to naturally immune mothers and thus their infants are unprotected. 

Infants whose mothers were born after 1963 had a measles attack rate of 33%, compared to 12% for infants of older mothers. Infants whose mothers were born after 1963 are more susceptible to measles than are infants of
older mothers. An increasing proportion of infants born in the United States may be susceptible to measles. 

For the disease of measles, we see that while the clinical case rate may have declined with vaccination, the most sensitive members of the herd are at an increased risk- as a result of vaccination.   

Dr Peter Aaby has produced volumes of research on measles in Africa.  Initially there was a belief that measles infection was associated with immune suppression and higher long-term mortality, but that belief came from vaccine research, not natural measles research.  

The belief in persistent immune suppression was stimulated by increased mortality after high-titre measles vaccination. 

Once natural measles was monitored long-term the knowledge changed.  According to Aaby, 

When measles infection is mild, clinical measles has no long-term excess mortality and may be associated with better overall survival than no clinical measles infection. Sub-clinical measles is common among immunised children and is not associated with excess mortality.  

Measles is mildest when the infected person is replete with vitamins C and A.  The devastation and mortality you hear about with measles comes from starving populations.  

Do you know that 30% of cases of measles in unvaccinated are missed because they are so mild?   Subclinical measles is an entity that most doctors today are unaware of.  If they are missed in unvaccinated, and there are known outbreaks of measles in 100 percent vaccinated populations, are cases missed in vaccinated populations too?  Is measles still alive and well but going unnoticed in vaccinated countries, until a well-publicized outbreak occurs, as vaccine necessity is being trumpeted? What doctor would know or is even looking for atypical measles?

Talk to your grandmother about measles.  Ask her if she saw death and destruction from the disease.  It was not a disease that needed eradication.  The high death rates were in countries where children were undernourished and lacked vitamins necessary to process the virus.  Alexander Langmuir, MD is known today as the father of infectious disease epidemiology. In 1949 he created the epidemiology section of what is now known as the CDC.  He also headed the Polio Surveillance Unit that was started in 1955 after the polio vaccine misadventures.  Dr Langmuir knew that measles was not a disease that needed eradication when he said:  

To those who ask me, Why do you wish to eradicate measles?, I reply
with the same answer that Hillary used when asked why he wished to climb Mt.
Everest. He said, Because it is there. To this may be added, ". . and it can be done."  

Langmuir also knew that by the time vaccination was developed, measles mortality in the USA had already declined to minimal levels when he described measles as a

 self-limiting infection of short duration, moderate severity, and low fatality 

The vaccine was created because it could be done, not because we needed it.  Measles is not eradicated. Outbreaks happen all over the world, and will continue.  And now infants will be unprotected because of the absence of maternal antibodies in their vaccinated mothers milk.  So much for protecting the most vulnerable in the herd.  "
Read  full essay:
http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/20...umphries-md-3/

----------


## angelatc

> I already posted the stats on smallpox, Angela.  You are just too impatient and disinterested to find that information.  Eradicated due to sanitation and hygiene.


That's simply a lie, but I'll play along to humilate you because there's young people on here who have never lived in a world with polio and smallpox, and therefore might $#@!ing believe the dangerous propaganda you push.  

Tell me, what great advance(s) in sanitation and hygiene did civilization make in the years between 1967 and 1977?  

And why didn't chicken pox disappear then, or measles, or whooping cough, or the flu, or polio?

I am very interested.

----------


## donnay

> He doesn't present any facts that I can tell.


LOL!  I guess if you hit the link and read his findings, which the highlighted links are provided to back up what they are reporting on.  The same thing applies to Natural News and Infowars/PrisonPlanet who thoroughly document their reports too, but many of you naysayers and ne'er-do-well simply ignore that little tid-bit of information.

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> There are trace amounts of plutonium in your mouth right now.
> 
> Do you really think that vaccine companies take pleasure to put mercury in vaccines to kill babies?
> 
> When you hear the work "trace amount", find out what that amount is, find out what the normal environmental level is, find out what the toxicity level is and when you're all done, go eat some sushi.


Surely not pleasure, however, over these many years they have reduced the amount because of public demand and safety of consumer.  

Trace amounts are still too high for a tiny, newborn, RonRules.  Many are waiting until child is older and giving doses in single issue spaced over time.  This controversy has caused consumers to check into this and that is a great good.  

True - both light and heavy metals are in our immediate environment.  A good diet, with ABCDE Cod liver oil and trace minerals will help chelate these out in a natural way that does not overload the body.

----------


## Revolution9

> It was his boyfriend that got busted. He was living in the US under a false name, forged passport and all.


Thanks..that was it. My heinous reaction was due to the fraud and he was the supposed anti-fraud guy to go to for debunkers.

Rev9

----------


## twoggle

> Baylock is a major quack!  Quack, quack, quack!
> "Despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, Blaylock maintains that vaccines cause Lou Gehrig's disease (amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, or ALS, a disease of the nerve cells in the brain and spinal cord that control voluntary muscle movement), Parkinson's, and autism.4"


It seems that every article and person you disagree with, you resort to personal attacks on the
author: "Quack, quack quack!" -- That's your response to a well-referenced article by a neuroscientist.
I get it. You can yell: "quack," "wacko" or "pseudoscience" or link to an article that fabricates
information about a person and their positions. As one example of fabricated information:

" http://www.skepdic.com/blaylock.html
'Despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, Blaylock maintains that vaccines cause Lou Gehrig's disease (amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, or ALS, a disease of the nerve cells in the brain and spinal cord that control voluntary muscle movement), Parkinson's, and autism.'"

Of course there are no "mountains of evidence to the contrary." The author of this hit piece did not even take the time to understand what Dr. Blaylock and a number of other neuroscientists have said about giving excitotoxins (through vaccinations or other routes) to infants. Brain cells damage from excitotoxin exposure is permanent, but
in cases of infant exposure, the effects do not show up for many years or decades. That is what animal research has shown. So, there are no mountains of studies looking at the long-term effects of vaccine exposure in relation
to neurodegenerative diseases that have been linked by some scientists to excitotoxins.

For the last 20 years, I have provided resources to people interested in avoiding vaccine and will continue to do so. Fortunately, I think we have the freedom to make up our own minds without government violence.

----------


## angelatc

> After an effective measles vaccine was introduced in 1963, the incidence of measles decreased significantly. Nevertheless,* measles remains a common disease in certain regions and continues to account for nearly 50% of the 1.6 million deaths caused each year by vaccine-preventable childhood diseases.* The incidence of measles in the United States and worldwide is increasing, with outbreaks being reported particularly in populations with low vaccination rates.[1]Maternal antibodies play a significant role in protection against infection in infants younger than 1 year and may interfere with live-attenuated measles vaccination.
> 
> A single dose of measles vaccine administered to a child older than 12 months induces protective immunity in 95% of recipients. Because measles virus is highly contagious, a 5% susceptible population is sufficient to sustain periodic outbreaks in otherwise highly vaccinated populations.




You've got some nerve quoting some guy claiming that measles isn't all that serious, when 800,000 kids a year are still dying from it.

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> It seems that every article and person you disagree with, you resort to personal attacks on the
> author: "Quack, quack quack!" -- That's your response to a well-referenced article by a neuroscientist.
> I get it. You can yell: "quack," "wacko" or "pseudoscience" or link to an article that fabricates
> information about a person and their positions. As one example of fabricated information:
> 
> " http://www.skepdic.com/blaylock.html
> 'Despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, Blaylock maintains that vaccines cause Lou Gehrig's disease (amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, or ALS, a disease of the nerve cells in the brain and spinal cord that control voluntary muscle movement), Parkinson's, and autism.'"
> 
> Of course there are no "mountains of evidence to the contrary." The author of this hit piece did not even take the time to understand what Dr. Blaylock and a number of other neuroscientists have said about giving excitotoxins (through vaccinations or other routes) to infants. Brain cells damage from excitotoxin exposure is permanent, but
> ...


+rep.  Well said.

----------


## NewRightLibertarian

> It seems that every article and person you disagree with, you resort to personal attacks on the
> author: "Quack, quack quack!" -- That's your response to a well-referenced article by a neuroscientist.
> I get it. You can yell: "quack," "wacko" or "pseudoscience" or link to an article that fabricates
> information about a person and their positions. As one example of fabricated information


What RonRules is doing is reinforcing the status quo of the medical establishment. He doesn't even care if the disease is a threat or not, as long as people are getting stuck with needles. He apparently doesn't see how the 'act fast and act swiftly to deal with this supposed threat' line of thinking could lead to some problems.

----------


## donnay

> That's simply a lie, but I'll play along to humilate you because there's young people on here who have never lived in a world with polio and smallpox, and therefore might $#@!ing believe the dangerous propaganda you push.  
> 
> Tell me, what great advance(s) in sanitation and hygiene did civilization make in the years between 1967 and 1977?  
> 
> And why didn't chicken pox disappear then, or measles, or whooping cough, or the flu, or polio?
> 
> I am very interested.


http://www.vaclib.org/basic/history.htm

SANITATION, NOT VACCINATION
THE TRUE Protection
against Small-Pox
*
A Paper read before the Second International Congress of Anti-Vaccinators*

Index: *More articles on Smallpox*

*Sanitation Vs. Vaccination - The Origin of Smallpox & causes*. 

Some Facts to preface quotes on Sanitation:

... By advocating safer, alternative treatments, people's health and welfare will only improve. If we examine orthodox treatments we will find that up to 20% of admissions to hospitals are caused by iatrogenesis, that is, doctor induced problems. Most orthodox treatments have not been proven scientifically. Prof. J. Garrow was quoted in the Australian Doctor's Weekly (28 June 91) as saying that 65% of conventional medical treatment was not proven. The U.S. Congress publication, "Assessing the efficacy and safety of medical technologies" (1978) quoted 80% to 90% as being unproved. When there were doctor's strikes in the U.S., Israel and Colombia, death rates fell. A study by J. and S. McKinlay of Boston University, concluded that only up to 3.5% of the decline in disease was due to medical measures. I think that the medical establishment has over-estimated its usefulness... (end of quote?)
Read rest of article at whale.to Peter Baratosy MD
http://www.cleaninglink.com/Cleaning...sanitation.htm
Following article taken from:
A Brief History Of Cleaning

Today, we know that sanitation makes a tremendous contribution to preventing disease and keeping people healthy.

But is wasn't always that way. Throughout most of our history, sanitation practices were practically nonexistent. Yet the history of sanitation dates back at least 7.000 years, to the Babylonians, Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans.

7,000 YEARS AGO
The Babylonians discovered that contaminated water could cause disease. They brought in fresh water every day.

2,000 YEARS AGO
The physician Hippocrates discovered that cleansing could prevent infection.

THE ROMAN EMPIRE
Made great progress in the area of sanitation. Built aqueducts to bring in fresh water, and built sewer systems and public baths. However, with the fall of the Roman Empire, much of the knowledge the Romans developed was lost, and was not passed on.

MEDIEVAL TIMES
Were truly the Dark Ages as far as sanitation was concerned. Towns were dirty and crowded, and disease and epidemics spread unchecked because of the lack of sanitation.
Water was contaminated, and personal hygiene was virtually unknown.
Tuberculosis, cholera, diphtheria, smallpox, yellow fever, all were rampant.
As many children died as lived, and the average life span was under 30 years. The worst epidemic during this period was the Black Death, from 1438-1441, which spread to such proportions that 60 million people died, which at the time was one-fourth the population of the world.

19TH. CENTURY
In New York City, living conditions were as nearly as filthy as in the middle ages, and yearly epidemics swept through populations, killing many.
The average life span was less than age 40.
But during the mid 1800's, it was discovered between germs and disease was proven. Soaps, disinfectants, and pharmaceuticals began to be developed, and it was first recognized that disease could be controlled.
This began the Sanitation Revolution, and public health practices such as garbage collection, water treatment, public health departments and regulations, as well as personal bathing, became part of the culture.
The death rate in children dropped, and the average life span increased over the years, to age 74.

Originally this article was probably found at: http://www.op.net/~uarts/krupa/alltextparis.html
This link is not currently active.
[1/18/2012 an active link]

Paris: Urban Sanitation Before the 20th Century

A History of Invisible Infrastructure

by* Frederique Krupa*

Built on the ruins of the Roman city of Lutecia, Paris was officially founded in 360 AD. Its evolution was defined by a succession of fortified walls that surrounded its ever expanding territory well into the 19th Century.

Since ancient times, the basic rule for dealing with Parisian garbage was "tout-a-la-rue" -- all in the street -- including household waste, urine, feces and even fetuses. Larger items were frequently thrown into "no-man's-land" over the city wall or into the Seine. Feces, however, was often collected to be used as fertilizer. Parisian dirt streets easily assimilated the refuse thanks to frequent rain and heavy pedestrian and cart traffic. The edible muck was often consumed by pigs and wild dogs, and the rest was consumed by microorganisms. The smell of the rotting matter was terrible but by no means the only contribution to the odors found in Paris.

The history of waste treatment in Paris was not unlike those of other major industrialized cities. Response to the accumulation of refuse generally occurs when problems become too urgent to ignore. Paris's enormous production of urban refuse household and manufacturing garbage, human and animal excrements, human corpses and animal carcasses - produced gradual solutions in the form of cesspools, gutters, waterworks, sewers, street cleaning ordinances, fountains, garbage collection, dumps, bathhouses, bathrooms, street urinals, sewerage farming, composting, mass graves, cemeteries and catacombs, intertwined and influenced by the political and philosophical ideas of the times. This site will tackle four waste management topics -- sanitation, sewerage, garbage and corpses -- in chronological order starting with the medieval times and ending with the end of the 19th century, when most of the current waste management methods were implemented.
BBC History - Society - Sex, lice and chamber pots in Pepys' ...
Source of following quote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/society...nitation.shtml
BBC History - Society - Sex, lice and chamber pots in Pepys' ...

Background information

London had had sewers for centuries but they only carried surface water. Excrement went into the cesspit under the house or in the garden, and was - in theory - regularly emptied. There was a system for rubbish collection, but somehow there were always dead dogs and cats, and food refuse, and an overwhelming amount of animal faeces in the streets.

Water had to be bought from watercarriers unless you were so poor that you collected your own from the river or one of the few public wells, or so rich that you subscribed to a private water company such as the New River. Their mains were made of elm trunks, and the domestic supply pipes were lead. The supply ran only a few hours at a time, so you had to store your water in lead tanks. No wonder it tasted foul, but it sufficed for boiling meat, and for very limited personal ablutions (Samuel Pepys was sure he caught a cold by washing his feet). Household washing used lyre made from ashes and urine.
History of Public Toilets
Following quotes taken from: (see original page for more)
http://www.plumbingworld.com/toilethistoryindia.html
History of Public Toilets
Link above no longer works, for quotes see:
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/quotes.html

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it - even if I have said it - unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
- The Buddha

"There is no question that our health has improved spectacularly in the past century. One thing seems certain: it did not happen because of medicine, or medical science, or even the presence of doctors. "Much of the credit should go to the plumbers and engineers of the western world. The contamination of drinking water by human feces was at one time the greatest cause of human disease and death for us...(but) when the plumbers and sanitary engineers had done their work in the construction of our cities, these diseases began to vanish. "

- Lewis Thomas (medical researcher and essayist)

"What the world's poorest one billion need more than doctors, good roads, the Internet and even electricity, is quality drinking water and safe sewage disposal. Society is nothing without good plumbing."
- Vic - our founder 2001

"An excellent plumber is infinitely more admirable than an incompetent philosopher. The society that scorns excellence in plumbing just because plumbing is a humble activity, and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy because it is an exalted activity, will have neither good plumbing nor good philosophy.
Neither its pipes nor its philosophy will hold water."
- John William Gardner
Interesting History, or why did they get sick?
[My apologies to the author of this peice. This was taken from a forwarded email which did not contain the author's name.]
Know the authors name: Click here to Email us:

Interesting History

Next time you are washing your hands and complain because the water temperature isn't just how you like it, think about how things used to be....Here are some facts about the 1500s:

Most people got married in June because they took their yearly bath in May and still smelled pretty good by June. However, they were starting to smell so brides carried a bouquet of flowers to hide the body odor. Baths consisted of a big tub filled with hot water. The man of the house had the privilege of the nice clean water, then all the other sons and men, then the women and finally the children-last of all the babies. By then the water was so dirty you could actually lose someone in it-hence the saying, "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water."

Houses had thatched roofs -- thick straw -- piled high, with no wood underneath. It was the only place for animals to get warm, so all the dogs, cats and other small animals (mice, bugs) lived in the roof. When it rained it became slippery and sometimes the animals would slip and fall off the roof -- hence the saying "It's raining cats and dogs."

There was nothing to stop things from falling into the house. This posed a real problem in the bedroom where bugs and other droppings could really mess up your nice clean bed. Hence, a bed with big posts and a sheet hung over the top afforded some protection. That's how canopy beds came into existence.

The floor was dirt. Only the wealthy had something other than dirt hence the saying "dirt poor." The wealthy had slate floors that would get slippery in the winter when wet, so they spread thresh (straw) on the floor to help keep their footing. As the winter wore on, they kept adding more thresh until when you opened the door it would all start slipping outside. A piece of wood was placed in the entranceway -- hence, a "thresh hold."

In those old days, they cooked in the kitchen with a big kettle that always hung over the fire. Every day they lit the fire and added things to the pot. They ate mostly vegetables and did not get much meat. They would eat the stew for dinner, leaving leftovers in the pot to get cold overnight and then start over the next day. Sometimes the stew had food in it that had been there for quite a while -- hence the rhyme, "peas porridge hot, peas porridge cold, peas porridge in the pot nine days old."

Sometimes they could obtain pork, which made them feel quite special. When visitors came over, they would hang up their bacon to show off. It was a sign of wealth that a man "could bring home the bacon." They would cut off a little to share with guests and would all sit around and "chew the fat."

Those with money had plates made of pewter. Food with a high acid content caused some of the lead to leach onto the food, causing lead poisoning and death. This happened most often with tomatoes, so for the next 400 years or so, tomatoes were considered poisonous. Most people did not have pewter plates, but had trenchers, a piece of wood with the middle scooped out like a bowl. Often trenchers were made from stale bread which was so old and hard that they could be used for quite some time. Trenchers were never washed and a lot of times worms and mold got into the wood and old bread. After eating off wormy, moldy trenchers, one would get "trench mouth."

Bread was divided according to status. Workers got the burnt bottom of the loaf, the family got the middle, and guests got the top, or "uppercrust."

Lead cups were used to drink ale or whiskey. The combination would sometimes knock them out for a couple of days. Someone walking along the road would take them for dead and prepare them for burial. They were laid out on the kitchen table for a couple of days and the family would gather around and eat and drink and wait and see if they would wake up -- hence the custom of holding a "wake."

England is old and small and the local folks started running out of places to bury people. So they would dig up coffins and would take the bones to a "bone-house" and reuse the grave. When reopening these coffins, 1 out of 25 coffins were found to have scratch marks on the inside and they realized they had been burying people alive. So they thought they would tie a string on the wrist of the corpse, lead it through the coffin and up through the ground and tie it to a bell. Someone would have to sit out in the graveyard all night (the "graveyard shift") to listen for the bell; thus, someone could be "saved by the bell" or was considered a "dead ringer."

And that's the truth...(and whoever said that History was boring?)

----------


## angelatc

> Thanks..that was it. My heinous reaction was due to the fraud and he was the supposed anti-fraud guy to go to for debunkers.
> 
> Rev9


If you want a real laugh...he lost almost all his money....due to.....wait for it.....fraud.  A contractor ripped him off.

----------


## RonRules

> Trace amounts are still too high for a tiny, newborn, RonRules.  Many are waiting until child is older and giving doses in single issue spaced over time.  This controversy has caused consumers to check into this and that is a great good.  
> 
> True - both light and heavy metals are in our immediate environment.  A good diet, with ABCDE Cod liver oil and trace minerals will help chelate these out in a natural way that does not overload the body.


There is so much wrong in your reply, you have no idea. I'll try to point a few things.

"Trace amounts are still too high"  We now have extremely sensitive instrumentation that will measure totally insignificant levels. Before you say: "Trace amounts are still too high", again what are these amounts can they have any effect? I need to repeat, you currently have trace amount of plutonium in your mouth now. What are you going to do about it?

"This controversy". It was actually a "manufactroversy" a manufactured controversy, much like the manufactured controversy between creationism and evolution. There is no controversy there. Evolution is a fact and creationism is nonsense.

"chelate these out" PLEASE read up about chelation therapy: Chelation therapy, is a series of intravenous infusions containing disodium EDTA and various other substances. It is sometimes done by swallowing EDTA or other agents in pill form. Proponents claim that EDTA chelation therapy is effective against atherosclerosis and many other serious health problems. Its use is widespread because patients have been led to believe that it is a valid alternative to established medical interventions such as coronary bypass surgery. However, there is no scientific evidence that this is so. It is also used to treat nonexistent "lead poisoning," "mercury poisoning," and other alleged toxic states that practitioners diagnose with tests on blood, urine, and/or hair.

It's quack! It's all quack.

----------


## James Madison

> "And we have made of ourselves living cesspools, and driven doctors to invent names for our diseases."
> 
> -- Plato





> "The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures the disease."  Voltaire (1694-1778)


Yeah, it's probably not a good idea to cite authors from an era that thought disease was the result of 'evil spirits'.

----------


## donnay

[QUOTE=angelatc;4547709]


> [LEFT]After an effective measles vaccine was introduced in 1963, the incidence of measles decreased significantly. Nevertheless,* measles remains a common disease in certain regions and continues to account for nearly 50% of the 1.6 million deaths caused each year by vaccine-preventable childhood diseases.* The incidence of measles in the United States and worldwide is increasing, with outbreaks being reported particularly in populations with low vaccination rates.[1][COLOR=#000000][FONT=arial]Maternal antibodies play a significant role in protection against infection in infants younger than 1 year and may interfere with live-attenuated measles vaccination.
> 
> You've got some nerve quoting some guy claiming that measles isn't all that serious, when 800,000 kids a year are still dying from it.


Measles deaths quotes

"In the unlikely event that a child does get measles, the chances that the disease will prove fatal are extremely low. The worst outbreak in the last 15 years was in 1990, when there were 27,786 cases and 89 deaths. That's a 0.32 percent chance of dying on top of a 0.0115 percent chance of coming down with the disease in the first place, compared to a child's 0.2 percent chance of coming down with autism by the age of 5.   Because the number of measles cases was 12 times greater than normal in 1990 and the fatalities occurred in people of all ages, a child under 5 is approximately 800 times more likely to develop autism than die of measles in an average year."---Vox Day

"From July 1990 thro' April 1994, 5799 ADRs following MMR vaccination were reported to US Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS); including 3063 cases requiring emergency medical treatment, 616 hospitalisations, 309 who did not recover, 54 children left disabled and 30 deaths."--- John P Heptonstall
http://www.whale.to/v/measles_deaths.html

----------


## idiom

> 


I was looking for this diagram. I saw something similar last week in an epidemiology lecture at Otago University.

It was associated with Rudolf Virchow’s famous statement “Medicine is a social science, and politics nothing but medicine at a larger scale”.

The occurrence of disease tracks income far more readily than any other correlated data.

Things like cholera were largely resolved with large scale top down authoritarian measures.

----------


## RonRules

> That's simply a lie, but I'll play along to humilate you because there's young people on here who have never lived in a world with polio and smallpox, and *therefore might $#@!ing believe the dangerous propaganda you push*.


It is a dangerous propaganda. Absolutely.

----------


## angelatc

> http://www.vaclib.org/basic/history.htm


That didn't answer the question.  In 1967, small pox was killing people.  By 1977, it wasn't. You claim that it's because sanitation and hygeine improved.  What great change in sanitation happened in those 10 years that wiped out small pox?  And why didn't all our other contagious diseases die at the same time?  

Especially in Africa, where every other freaking disease I can think of seems to still thrive. 

You made the claim - back it up with something other than some rambling nonsense about medeval England.  Small pox was a disease known for thousands of years. Something wiped it out - dropping from 15 million cases a year to none...all in 10 years time.

What did the whole word do in those 10 years that caused 1 (and only 1) disease to suddenly cease to exist?  Aside from the vaccine, that is.

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> There is so much wrong in your reply, you have no idea. I'll try to point a few things.
> 
> "Trace amounts are still too high"  We now have extremely sensitive instrumentation that will measure totally insignificant levels. Before you say: "Trace amounts are still too high", again what are these amounts can they have any effect? I need to repeat, you currently have trace amount of plutonium in your mouth now. What are you going to do about it?
> 
> "This controversy". It was actually a "manufactroversy" a manufactured controversy, much like the manufactured controversy between creationism and evolution. There is no controversy there. Evolution is a fact and creationism is nonsense.
> 
> "chelate these out" PLEASE read up about chelation therapy: Chelation therapy, is a series of intravenous infusions containing disodium EDTA and various other substances. It is sometimes done by swallowing EDTA or other agents in pill form. Proponents claim that EDTA chelation therapy is effective against atherosclerosis and many other serious health problems. Its use is widespread because patients have been led to believe that it is a valid alternative to established medical interventions such as coronary bypass surgery. However, there is no scientific evidence that this is so. It is also used to treat nonexistent "lead poisoning," "mercury poisoning," and other alleged toxic states that practitioners diagnose with tests on blood, urine, and/or hair.
> 
> It's quack! It's all quack.


RonRules, I'm wrapping up for the night so I will say that "trace amounts" are listed on the MSDS for this ingredient.  It is too much for newborns/infants.  

Natural chelation is continually happening in the body per Bee Wilder at  www.healingnaturallybybee.com

No tests needed, just a good diet as Bee suggest.  You will probably call her a quack, too.  I hope not.  I am not against conventional medicine.

You are probably much younger than I and I can admire that you are seeking truth.

----------


## donnay

> That didn't answer the question.  In 1967, small pox was killing people.  By 1977, it wasn't. You claim that it's because sanitation and hygeine improved.  What great change in sanitation happened in those 10 years that wiped out small pox?  And why didn't all our other contagious diseases die at the same time?  
> 
> Especially in Africa, where every other freaking disease I can think of seems to still thrive. 
> 
> You made the claim - back it up with something other than some rambling nonsense about medeval England.  Small pox was a disease known for thousands of years. Something wiped it out - dropping from 15 million cases a year to none...all in 10 years time.
> 
> What did the whole word do in those 10 years that caused 1 (and only 1) disease to suddenly cease to exist?  Aside from the vaccine, that is.



The last case of smallpox in the United States was in 1949.

http://www.whale.to/vaccines/obomsawin2.html

----------


## angelatc

> I already posted the stats on smallpox, Angela.  You are just too impatient and disinterested to find that information.  Eradicated due to sanitation and hygiene.
> 
> If the following factors are useful in controlling contagious disease:
> 
>     Sanitation. (Includes clean water, clean air, clean food, clean environment.)
>     Quality nutrition, year around, not just seasonable.
>     Hygiene.
>     Insect control.
>     Belief that one is immune.
> ...



Where did the data on your charts come from?  I can't even read it - what does it say?  At least my chart is clear, and well documented to boot.

----------


## angelatc

> The last case of smallpox in the United States was in 1949.
> 
> http://www.atsu.edu/faculty/chamberl...r/smallpox.htm


I 

clearly

said

Africa

had

the

last

case.

No wonder you believe only what you already know.  Do you just skim?

This is pointless.  You can't tell me what great advance in sanitation made smallpox disappear, because there wasn't one.  There was, however coincidentally, a worldwide vaccine push intended to eradicate smallpox.

----------


## James Madison

> The last case of smallpox in the United States was in 1949.
> 
> http://www.atsu.edu/faculty/chamberl...r/smallpox.htm


I wonder why? Maybe it's because the entire population was vaccinated?




> Where did the data on your charts come from?  I can't even read it - what does it say?  At least my chart is clear, and well documented to boot.


The ever-reputable vactruth.com

----------


## donnay

> I wonder why? Maybe it's because the entire population was vaccinated?
> 
> 
> 
> The ever-reputable vactruth.com


If you read what I posted than you will see it was eradicated before the world was vaccinated.

----------


## RonRules

> RonRules, I'm wrapping up for the night so I will say that "trace amounts" are listed on the MSDS for this ingredient.  It is too much for newborns/infants.


Your newborn gets exposed to all sorts of crap. Denying your kid vaccines is MUCH worse than worring about trace amounts of anything. It's on the box to prevent legal problems, that's all.




> Natural chelation is continually happening in the body per Bee Wilder at  www.healingnaturallybybee.com


Pro tip: If the word "Healing" is anywhere near a doctor's shingle, run!




> You are probably much younger than I and I can admire that you are seeking truth.


Probably not. I bet I'm older.

I have a sister with the name Louise though.

----------


## angelatc

Note that it was trending up and down, and was somewhere around an average rate of infection when the vaccine was introduced.

----------


## angelatc

> I wonder why? Maybe it's because the entire population was vaccinated?
> 
> 
> 
> The ever-reputable vactruth.com


Yes, and they copied them from a book that they sell.  There's no legend that I can find, no way to verify the data at all.

OH - it's not the infection rate.  It's the death rate.   That might be about right, but it might not be....who knows?

----------


## James Madison

> If you read what I posted than you will see it was eradicated before the world was vaccinated.


I did read what you posted, including this little gem in the last section:




> *Prevention*
> 
> The only effective means of preventing smallpox infection and disease is by vaccination.

----------


## libertyjam

> Are you assuming they're still testing whether or not vaccines work?  They were developed independently and tested as such.
> 
> The problem is that no amount of real science will ever satisfy the conspiracy nuts.


"There has never been a single vaccine in this country that has ever been submitted to a controlled scientific study. They never took a group of 100 people who were candidates for a vaccine, gave 50 of them a vaccine and left the other 50 alone, and measured the outcome. And since that's never been done, that means if you want to be kind, you will call vaccines an unproven remedy. If you want to be accurate you will call people who give vaccines quacks."

Robert S. Mendelsohn MD, Pediatrician, Professor of Pediatrics, University of Illinios, College of Medicine 

"Vaccine trials are flawed because they are not designed to detect associations between vaccinations and autoimmune diseases."
Dr. J. Bart Classen MD, former researcher, National Institute of Health 

"I would challenge any colleague, clinician, or research scientist to claim we have a basic understanding of the human newborn immune system. It is well established in studies in animal models that the newborn immune system is very distinct from the adolescent or adult. In fact, the immune system in humans can be easily perturbed to ensure it cannot respond properly later in life."
Bonnie Dunbar PhD, Professor of Immunobiology, Baylor College of Medicine 

Many of us have heard that the pneumococcal vaccine, Prevnar, is supposed to provide protection against ear infections -acute otitus media (AOM). The National Academy of Science, the Institute of Medicine, the CDC, AAP, etc. base this assertion on the Prevnar vaccine trials. Dr. Steve Black oversaw the results of the clinical trial in California and stated before an FDA Advisory Committee Meeting held in May 2002 that the control group had 7% more cases of AOM than the group given the Prevnar vaccine. In a clinical trial in Finland, Dr. Terhi Kilpi showed there were 6% more cases of AOM in the control group than the group given the Prevnar vaccine. So, does this mean that Prevnar vaccine protects children from contracting AOM?

To answer our question and understand some of the flaws in the vaccine trial, consider this analogy:
In an alcohol trial, 20 subjects were randomized to receive either free whiskey or free vodka.
The next morning 10 whiskey drinkers had 10 hangovers, 100%.
The 10 vodka drinkers had only 9 hangovers, 90%.
Therefore, vodka has an overall protective efficacy of 10 percent against hangovers. Comparison to non-drinkers or moderate drinkers was not made as it is unethical to withhold alcohol from individuals.

Before we discuss the flaws in this logic, let us restate the same analogy:
In California, a number of children received all standard vaccines on the CDC recommended schedule. Half the children were also given Prevnar vaccine, and the other half the Investigational meningococcal group C conjugate vaccine (MnCC), the 'control'.
In Finland, a number of children received all standard vaccines on the US CDC recommended schedule. About one third also received Prevnar vaccine, another one third also received Hepatitis B vaccine which formed the 'control' group. The remaining one third also received another investigational vaccine which is discussed very little at the CDC hearing.
The control groups had 6 to 7 percent more AOM than the Prevnar groups.
Therefore, Prevnar 'must be protective' against AOM?
Comparison to an unvaccinated group was not made as it is believed to be 'unethical to leave children unvaccinated.' Comparison was not made between the Prevnar group and a group receiving only routine vaccines because, "it seemed to be the right thing to do to offer something to the control group also, something beneficial."

It is obvious that drinking an excess of alcohol causes hangovers, and in comparison a non-drinking group would have NO hangovers. Not equally obvious is that vaccines at least contribute to the causes of AOM. A group of non-vaccinated children would have perhaps HALF the cases of AOM compared to a vaccinated group. The trials do not prove Prevnar prevents any degree of AOM, even the small 6-7 percent quoted. A more likely to be correct interpretation of the available data is that the combination of Prevnar and routine vaccines caused 6-7% less AOM in the trial groups than either 'control' group caused. Using vaccines for 'controls' is flawed methodology and biases results for both safety and effectiveness. The Hepatitis B insert lists Earache and Tinnitus in the reported adverse side effects list. 
http://www.vaclib.org/email/prevnarfda.htm

Vaccine Trials Flawed - Whether vaccination at birth will prevent vaccine-associated autoimmunity such as diabetes is not as clear as Classen's analysis of compelling data suggesting vaccines can be a co-factor in the development of Type I diabetes in children. Without large, well designed case controlled studies, his proposed solution to vaccinate at birth cannot be confirmed.

In the meantime, Classen is critical of past and current vaccine trials used by drug companies and the FDA to license vaccines and used by the CDC to make mass vaccination policies. In conclusion, he said:

"The results indicate that previous vaccine trials are flawed because they are not designed to detect associations between vaccination and autoimmune diseases, such as IDDM. Prospective clinical trials are needed to further evaluate the effect of vaccines on IDDM."
http://www.nvic.org/vaccines-and-dis...ediabetes.aspx

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> Your newborn gets exposed to all sorts of crap. Denying your kid vaccines is MUCH worse than worring about trace amounts of anything. It's on the box to prevent legal problems, that's all.
> 
> 
> 
> Pro tip: If the word "Healing" is anywhere near a doctor's shingle, run!
> 
> 
> 
> Probably not. I bet I'm older.
> ...


No point in discussing this further with you, RonRules.  Louise Rules!

----------


## RonRules

> You will probably call her a quack, too.  I hope not.


"If you look at candida protocols, such as Bee Wilder's, she recommends 20,000-30,000IU of Vit A per day."

The RDA level is 5,000 UI.  Excess Vitamin A and especially vitamin E will GIVE YOU cancer.

She's not a quack, she will kill you!

Read this:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-to-study.html

BTW, I have not taken a single vitamin in 45 years. I'm just fine and perfectly healthy.

----------


## angelatc

> No point in discussing this further with you, RonRules.  Louise Rules!


Where's the proof?

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> Where's the proof?


G'night, Angela

----------


## angelatc

[QUOTE=donnay;4547725]


> Measles deaths quotes
> 
> "In the unlikely event that a child does get measles, the chances that the disease will prove fatal are extremely low. The worst outbreak in the last 15 years was in 1990, when there were 27,786 cases and 89 deaths. That's a 0.32 percent chance of dying on top of a 0.0115 percent chance of coming down with the disease in the first place, compared to a child's 0.2 percent chance of coming down with autism by the age of 5.   Because the number of measles cases was 12 times greater than normal in 1990 and the fatalities occurred in people of all ages, a child under 5 is approximately 800 times more likely to develop autism than die of measles in an average year."---Vox Day
> 
> "From July 1990 thro' April 1994, 5799 ADRs following MMR vaccination were reported to US Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS); including 3063 cases requiring emergency medical treatment, 616 hospitalisations, 309 who did not recover, 54 children left disabled and 30 deaths."--- John P Heptonstall
> http://www.whale.to/v/measles_deaths.html


So you're claiming that 800,000 kids don't die from measles?  I want to make absolutely sure that's what you're saying.  And I'm not sure why you insist on countering global stats with US stats.

Because the vaccination rates are higher in the US than they are in a lot of the rest of the world, it makes sense that the diseases are less prevalent in the US.

----------


## angelatc

> G'night, Angela


THere's no proof .  I know that's hard to admit, because it seems counter-intuitive.  That's what makes science interesting!

----------


## Danke

> BTW, I have not taken a single vitamin in 45 years. I'm just fine and perfectly healthy.


Well, there you have it.  Vaccinated and no vitamin pills in 45 year.  That is as good as proof as Penn and Teller spiel.

----------


## angelatc

India has 0 cases so far this year.  PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell me about the great advances in their sanitation and overall living conditions that made this possible.  Please.

----------


## libertyjam

Smallpox

"We were fortunate enough to address their own medical (and) health officials where we reminded them of the incidence of smallpox in formerly "immunized" Filipinos. We invited them to consult their own medical records and asked them to correct us if our own facts and figures disagreed. No such correction has been forthcoming, and we can only conclude that between 1918-1919 there were 112,549 cases of smallpox notified, with 60,855 deaths. Systematic (mass) vaccination started in 1905, and since its introduction case mortality increased alarmingly. Their own records comment that "The mortality is hardly explainable."---Dr. Archie Kalokerinos  from Second Thoughts on Disease


Orthopox is a member of the family of Poxviridae. The ancestor of the poxviruses is not known but structural studies suggest it may have been an adenovirus or a species related to both the poxviruses and the adenoviruses. Orthopox viruses include cowpox(vaccinia), smallpox(variola), and monkeypox.  Mutations do occur in these viruses, but at a very slow rate. 

Between October 1970 and May 1971 a poxvirus was isolated from some symptomatic patients in West Africa. That virus is now known as “human monkeypox.” Monkeypox got its name because monkeys were the first animals known to have harbored the monkeypox virus. Scientists now say that the primary reservoirs for monkeypox virus are not monkeys but probably squirrels. WHO officials in 1976 had no idea what the true reservoir of infection was.   Today, according to CDC, it remains uncertain. 

Smallpox was declared eradicated worldwide by the World Health Assembly on May 8,th 1980.  Vaccination was stopped in the USA in 1972.  However, poxviruses that were indistinguishable from smallpox continued to cause human disease.  

Monkeys in surrounding areas where monkeypox outbreaks occur usually test negative for monkeypox. But prairie dogs, exotic rodents, Gambian rats, dormice, rope squirrels and other animals have tested positive.  Nobody really knows when or where monkeypox viruses originated, but they seem to be close relatives of cowpox and smallpox. All three viruses have rodent reservoirs. 

THIS ARTICLE states that monkeypox was first recorded in 1970 after the eradication of smallpox in the Democratic Republic of Congo. University of California, School of Public Health epidemiologist Dr Anne Rimoin states that monkeypox first arrived in humans after smallpox eradication, even though it has been on the earth for millennia. 

"Monkeypox has probably occurred for millennia in central Africa, but it's only since the eradication of smallpox that it's been a disease that actually happens in humans," Rimoin says. " 

There is absolutely zero certainty as to when monkeypox first colonized humans.  It is more accurate to say that monkeypox was first detected in humans around the time that smallpox was being declared eradicated, not that it arrived in humans at that time. Differentiation tests were not carried out on most cases of pox in the past 200 years. 

Laboratory diagnostic assays for monkeypox include virus isolation and electron microscopy, ELISA, immunofluorescent antibody assay, histopathologic analysis, and Polymerase Chain Reaction (PCR).  Unfortunately, most of these methods are relatively nonspecific and are unable to differentiate monkeypox viral infection from infection with other poxviruses.  All but PCR are fraught with false positives, false negatives, and cross reactivity.

In the 1970’s and 1980’s, biochemical tests were unreliable in differentiating between monkeypox and smallpox.  Animal challenge tests were historically used to determine the difference between monkeypox and smallpox.  The technique involved inoculating rabbits and watching the characteristics of the pox.  Initially the two kinds of pox appear similar in the rabbit, but after a few days, monkeypox distinguishes itself as it becomes hemorrhagic. LINK TO DOC HERE.

The problem with such means for distinction is that there has always been a hemorrhagic form of smallpox. 

“There are four types of variola major smallpox: ordinary; modified; flat; and hemorrhagic…. Hemorrhagic smallpox has a much shorter incubation period and is likely not to be initially recognized as smallpox when presenting to medical care. Smallpox vaccination also does not provide much protection, if any, against hemorrhagic smallpox.”  

ELISA is not much of a gold standard test as it casts a very wide net, and is fraught with false positive and false negative results.   ELISA TUTORIAL LINK HERE.
The genomes of these three orthopox viruses are extremely conserved and require a technology that can detect the minute differences. Polymerase Chain Reaction (PCR) is a newer test that came on the scene in the 1980’s. This test is different in that it can potentially find pieces of DNA from a virus. The genetic sequence of a virus has to first be mapped prior to designing a PCR test. So before smallpox, cowpox, or monkeypox viruses were characterized genetically, PCR could not be applied to distinguish between them. The first PCR test for monkeypox was used in 1997, but highly sensitive real-time PCR was not in use until 2006.   Different biotech companies have developed different tests that use different primers.  PCR, while highly sensitive and specific at about 98%, still has drawbacks, contamination being the biggest one. No test is foolproof.  Nonetheless it is probably the best assay available for detection and distinction today.  

It should now be obvious that during the two centuries of smallpox vaccination and up until the 1990’s there was no certain way of testing for distinct orthopox viruses. During the two centuries of vaccination, the viruses were likely to mutate, and certain strains could have been selected out as a result of vaccination.  

Therefore, does anyone know how much ‘smallpox’ disease was actually monkeypox or vaccinia? Given that monkeypox is thought to be an ancient virus, where was it during the smallpox epidemics? Was it called hemorrhagic smallpox? 

In 1972, scientists were asking similar questions when they said: 

“Is it possible that there is an animal reservoir for smallpox infection? Could monkeypox be a source of new outbreaks of true variola? Or, can the monkeypox virus undergo certain mutations and become identical in its pathogenicity and infectiveness to the variola virus?” 


ACCORDING TO SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, monkeypox is not that rare.  Seven hundred and sixty cases of monkeypox were counted in the Congo between 2006 and 2007. 

Before and during the time of eradication declaration, PCR was unavailable, and the different poxviruses couldn’t be distinguished by their DNA, but by a skin test on rabbits, chick embryo membranes, and blood tests that were fraught with uncertainty. It seems to me that what was once called smallpox was likely a very non-uniform disease that could have been anything from cowpox to two forms of smallpox to chickenpox to monkeypox.  

“Monkeypox virus is closely related to some other orthopoxviruses such as variola (smallpox) virus, and it cannot be distinguished from these viruses in some laboratory tests.…In 1996-1997, an outbreak [of monkeypox] in the DRC continued for more than a year, with a person–to–person transmission rate estimated at 78%. However, epidemiological evidence suggests that many of the cases in this outbreak may have been chickenpox (varicella); the number of monkeypox cases and the transmission rate might have been overestimated due to self-reporting and the unavailability of laboratory testing.” 

When vaccination stopped, monkeypox was suddenly diagnosed in humans.  Diagnostic methods were absent during the great vaccine campaigns and everything pox-like was considered smallpox and counted as smallpox.  Differentiating was not a priority.  

Variola, the smallpox virus, is not in the smallpox vaccine.  Instead, a cultured form of cowpox, called vaccinia, is the virus used to prevent smallpox.  That same vaccine also covers monkeypox, according to the CDC: 

“Because the monkeypox virus is related to the virus that causes smallpox, the smallpox vaccine can protect people from getting monkeypox as well as smallpox.

Smallpox vaccine is effective at protecting people against monkeypox when it is given before they are exposed to monkeypox. (Exposure includes very close contact with a person or animal that has monkeypox.) Experts believe that vaccination after exposure to monkeypox may help prevent the disease or make it less severe.”   

Even though PCR can distinguish between the three viruses, clinically and immunologically the viruses are so similar, that one virus in the vaccine is thought to immunize against the two other viruses. During outbreaks they all look the same. 

After the world trade center collapses in New York there were concerns over potential bioterrorism. Forty thousand health care workers and first responders and 450 thousand military were vaccinated in 2003.  They were all contagious for the nineteen-day post-vaccine shedding period.  Some doctors were asked to receive the vaccine in order to care for those who took the vaccine and developed vaccinia, or to care for those who became infected upon contact with a recently vaccinated person. 

Multi-state outbreaks of monkeypox were reported in the same year.   Most cases are presumed to have come from contact with prairie dogs exposed to rodents per CDC. However all cases were not exposed to animals.  ACCORDING TO A 2005 REPORT, of 72 cases only 37 cases were laboratory confirmed.  Eleven original cases were thrown out of the database when they met exclusion criteria. EXCLUSION CRITERIA.  There is mention of human to human infection, though in some reports this is denied.  

This is a very strange coincidence; vaccination and concomitant pox outbreaks in the same year.  Supposedly, monkeypox is not easily transmissible between humans, but there is a report in the literature of a 5 chain human-to -human transmission, and human-to-human monkeypox transmission is well documented.   A NEW ENGLAND JOURNAL OF MEDICINE REPORT vaguely stated that “There was ‘limited or no’ spread of monkeypox virus through human contact during this outbreak.” 

In 2003, the year that half a million people were vaccinated in the USA - AND the only year of monkeypox outbreaks in the USA, a multistate (Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Missouri, Ohio, and Wisconsin) outbreak, was the source of the outbreak definitely prairie dogs? CDC doesn’t state how many pox cases were exposed to prairie dogs, just “the majority of them had direct or close contact.” The vagueness of CDC’s reports gives rise to doubts. Only 37 of 72 cases were confirmed with PCR tests, and eleven of the original total were excluded from analysis. Excluding numerous cases on frivolous grounds is one way to dampen a negative outcome after a vaccine accident. 

Considering the link with vaccination is not far-fetched especially given that CDC reports say that only roughly half of cases were PCR confirmed. Vaccination has long been a relatively common means of transmitting pox outbreaks. According to Arita and Gromyko’s WHO bulletin in 1982, vaccination was a major fly in the eradication ointment…

“During the last 24 months, for example, surveillance reports from Canada and the United Kingdom have included 6 and 9 cases, respectively, of vaccine complications. At least 8 cases, however, were in persons who, while not vaccinated themselves, had been infected with vaccinia virus after being in contact with persons recently vaccinated. In some countries vaccination of recruits to the armed services has continued; these recruits will occasionally transmit vaccinia infection to unvaccinated persons, and inevitably some of the complications will be fatal. In the United Kingdom and Finland, smallpox vaccination of army recruits was discontinued in 1981.” 

Without discontinuing vaccination, it would have been impossible to stop the flow of smallpox.  Doesn’t that lead you to wonder how much smallpox was the result of the vaccine rather than natural smallpox?  We know that in places like Leicester UK, when vaccination ceased, so did smallpox. And there are numerous accounts of smallpox disease not only being much more severe and deadly among vaccinated populations, but also more prevalent.  

Isn’t it interesting that smallpox vaccine defies everything we know about specificity in immunity and that one vaccine covers all sorts of pox, except chicken pox?  Can you imagine, nowadays, if a vaccine researcher suggested that an illness could be prevented by using a slightly related virus?  Today’s vaccines contain numerous strains and types of the same organism. Polio vaccine has 3 types of poliovirus, influenza 2 strains of type A and one strain of type B.  But smallpox vaccine today contains one of many possible strains of a related virus, not even the smallpox(variola) virus at all.  In Jenner’s time, it is anyone’s guess which viruses ended up in the vaccines since the technique was so primitive and typing methods were not available.  Still, these vaccinia vaccines are thought to have eradicated smallpox, and serve as the foundation for vaccine faith.

Scientists back in the 1800’s and early to mid 1900’s had no way to differentiate smallpox, cowpox, monkeypox or most other pox diseases in humans.  Nor was there any effort to differentiate, until the disease was declared eradicated – just like when polio was eradicated. Anything that looked like polio, but not caused by a polio virus, was called acute flaccid paralysis. 

Monkeypox and smallpox look identical on physical examination. HERE in the center of the post are pictures of smallpox and monkeypox. 

You probably can’t tell the difference between the two diseases, and neither can most doctors. Edward Jenner and the doctors of the 1800’s and 1900’s were also unable to distinguish smallpox – major and minor, monkeypox, or cowpox, or even chickenpox. 

It is now known that many cases of smallpox were mild. These are termed variola minor.  Variola major and variola minor are indistinguishable using the sensitive PCR test,  and thus represent the same infectious organism.  

Do you think your doctor would know a case of variola minor if they saw it?  Or would it just be called chicken pox?  Do you think your doctor would even think that it could be smallpox, given that smallpox is thought to be eradicated?  There are clinical means to distinguish the difference, but few doctors think of it, and in the minor forms of smallpox it wouldn’t matter anyway.  

Many believe that smallpox was eradicated from the planet because of vaccination. I once believed this idea that was taught to me in medical school, and that all conventional doctors parrot as if they understood the history.  With just a little research it becomes evident that even though smallpox seems to have disappeared,  this was not the result of mass vaccination. 

It is obvious that the vaccines of 1796-1900’s were not purified or uniform, yet they serve as the foundation for successful vaccination. They were made on farms from scrapings of infected cow bellies, coarsely filtered, and mixed in glycerine.  While today’s vaccine product may be more meticulously manufactured, the CDC admits that the science behind even modern smallpox recommendations has been little more than a guess.  

“…data on duration of protection and recommendations on periodicity of vaccinations are limited and based to a large extent on historic precedent and expert opinion used to develop previous ACIP recommendations for smallpox vaccination for laboratory workers using orthopoxviruses.”  

And CDC has no idea what antibody titer is protective.

“The levels of antibody reported by these tests indicate only exposure, and the protective antibody titer against smallpox infection is unknown.”  

They surmise that the vaccine provides high-level immunity for 3-5 years. 

Here is a graph of smallpox vaccination deaths and smallpox disease deaths, from England spanning the years of 1906-1922. 

¬¬ 

The vaccine-associated deaths are conspicuously high, at about half the rate of smallpox deaths. 

Dr. Charles T. Pearce in his 1868 essay on vaccination wrote:

"It is a remarkable fact that Jenner's[the inventor of smallpox vaccine] first child, his eldest son, on whom he experimented, died subsequently of consumption[tuberculosis]. Another of his subjects, the man Phipps, whom Jenner vaccinated, also died of consumption.”

Those who were vaccinated for smallpox were noted to be more severely affected by smallpox and tuberculosis.  Many were exposed to tuberculosis from tuberculous animals that were used to make vaccines.  CLICK HERE TO OPEN "SMALLPOX AND THE FIRST VACCINE" FROM OUR UPCOMING BOOK.  

Smallpox manifested in several different forms(ordinary, modified, malignant, hemorrhagic).  Genetically the minor and major forms of variola are related and indistinguishable by PCR.  Individual susceptibility, rather than the virus probably made the biggest difference.  Susceptibility would have certainly increased after injection of filthy vaccines that contained myriad bacteria and viruses.  

What is most likely is that the appearance and disappearance of epidemics had much to do with the constitution and care of the population of the times.  Scurvy was common in areas with hemorrhagic smallpox.  This is no surprise to anyone who understands the full spectrum of ascorbic acid’s function in the body, especially on blood vessels.  

Pox epidemics declined as a result of sanitation and improved nutrition. During the era of smallpox most people were living in squalor, eating no fresh food, but rotten milk and rotten meat, drinking sewer water, living among filthy rodents, and working long hours for little pay.  Pox viruses are ancient, but smallpox evolved as a deadly killer as humanity devolved to overcrowded city dwellers living with filth, squalor, and desperation. 

Historical evidence points to the fact that the vaccinated were amongst the sickest in times of smallpox vaccines.  Protests against the vaccinators and smallpox vaccination were massive.  Parents commonly chose jail rather than permit their newborn babies to be vaccinated. Entire towns and districts revolted before the disease was finally declared eradicated, and the vaccine madness ended. 

Smallpox vaccination ended in the 1980’s because smallpox had declined and because there was so much trouble with the old unsafe vaccine.  That same trouble with the newer supposedly more safe smallpox vaccines is why smallpox vaccination ended after the 2003 first responder effort. Which makes you wonder just how much more trouble there was with the old smallpox vaccine which had a very long list of known bacterial and other “contaminants” because of its method of production. After the 2003 vaccines, reports of generalized vaccinia, autoinoculation, erythema multiforme, myopericarditis, ocular vaccinia, and postvaccinial encephalitis were reported. 

Smallpox was declared eradicated before clear distinctions between different poxviruses were made using DNA analysis. Symptoms alone are what were counted for smallpox during smallpox epidemics.  Vaccination was a major source of smallpox outbreaks, and only a small portion of the earth’s entire herd was ever even vaccinated.  Considering all of this, how can anyone believe that smallpox was eradicated with a vaccine? 

_____

With every vaccine suppressible disease, the general hysteria level usually depends on the availability of a vaccine.  Once a vaccine was available, the disease was suddenly made out to be more problematic.  Look how dangerous chicken pox became after the vaccine was developed. 

“Herd Immunity.” The flawed science and failures of mass vaccination. 

Suzanne Humphries, MD
        June, 2012
                                       International Medical Council on Vaccination
www.vaccinationcouncil.org

----------


## donnay

> I 
> 
> clearly
> 
> said
> 
> Africa
> 
> had
> ...




I didn't say it was eradicated in Africa due to sanitation and hygiene.  It wasn't eradicated in Africa, it is now called monkeypox.  Of course the WHO was getting much flack about the side effects of the smallpox vaccine they declared it eradicated--yet the Africans still have cases of smallpox, but they use another name to throw people off.

“At that time (1960s) , testing for the (smallpox) virus became more sophisticated. You no longer were suffering necessarily from smallpox. They would test it and find that it had different DNA. You’d have monkeypox or camelpox or some other form of pox. But it was still called variola, which is smallpox. And that’s what monkeypox in Africa is called. Clinically, the disease is exactly the same as smallpox. It has the same progression. It looks exactly the same. If you put a smallpox victim next to a monkeypox victim, you will not be able to tell the difference. As a matter of fact, with this outbreak of monkey pox in Africa–I think there have been over 500 cases in a very short time”.–Meryl Dorley (http://www.avn.org.au/)

"In turning to recognized textbooks on human virology and vertebrate viruses we find that attention has been given since 1970 to a disease called "monkeypox," which is said to be "clinically indistinguishable from smallpox." Cases of this disease have been found in Zaire, Cameroon, Nigeria, Ivory Coast, Liberia, and Sierra Leone (by May 1983, 101 cases have been reported). It is observed that " . . . the existence of a virus that can cause clinical smallpox is disturbing, and the situation is being closely monitored."--Dr R. Obomsawin

"Is smallpox history?" (The Lancet, vol. 353, no. 9164, May 8, 1999): "A pilgrim returned home to Yugoslavia from Mecca in February, 1972, with a fever… In the 4 weeks since the pilgrim first had his fever, 150 people were infected across the country. It took 4 weeks before doctors, nurses, and health authorities knew they were dealing with smallpox… 175 people contracted smallpox [thereafter] and 35 died… these events occurred in a well-vaccinated population."

"Poxvirus dilemmas -- monkeypox, smallpox, and biologic terrorism" (New England Journal of Medicine, vol. 339, no. 8, August 20, 1998): "More than 20 years have passed since the last case of smallpox was confirmed… Now, new dilemmas confront the world. Could recent outbreaks of human monkeypox in the Democratic Republic of the Congo [Zaire] represent the return of another form of smallpox?… The first case of human monkeypox was identified in 1970… The clinical picture of monkeypox resembles that of smallpox in Central Africa."

"Is an old virus up to new tricks?" (Science, vol. 277, July 18, 1997, pp. 312-3): "…an exotic infection …is alarming some public health experts: the largest outbreak ever seen in humans of a well-known virus called monkeypox. A first cousin of the once-dreaded smallpox, monkeypox causes nearly identical symptoms… '…for practical purposes, smallpox is back,' says virologist Peter Jahrling of the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Disease in Fort Detrick, Maryland… 'This could be worse than smallpox if it adapts to humans,' acknowledges virologist Bernard Moss of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID)…" Researchers were reluctant to recommend a new vaccination program--which would use smallpox vaccine--for the local population, because the vaccine can cause disease and death in persons with inadequate immune systems.

"Lethal animal pox virus infection in an atopic patient simulating variola vera [smallpox]" (Hautarzt., vol. 42, no. 5, May 1991, pp. 293-7): An 18-year-old patient acquired a cowpox-like virus infection clinically similar to smallpox from a domestic cat as carrier. In spite of intensive care, with…the last available vaccinia hyperimmunoglobulin, the patient died of pulmonary embolism…"

"Variola [smallpox] or a severe case of varicella? A case of human variola due to monkeypox virus in a child from the Cameroon]" (Ann. Soc. Belg. Med. Trop., vol. 71, no. 2, June 1991, pp. 123-8): Human monkeypox was suspected on clinical grounds in a seven year old child in Cameroon. (A selected Medline [National Library of Medicine] "MESH" subject heading is "Smallpox--diagnosis.")

"Human monkey pox: its clinico-epidemiological characteristics" (Zh. Mikrobiol. Epidemiol. Immunobiol. vol. 6, June 1988, pp. 23-30): During the course of the smallpox eradication programme, a new eruptive disease clinically resembling smallpox was discovered in Zaire…the virus can be transmitted from man to man."

http://www.whale.to/vaccine/smallpox1.html

----------


## angelatc

> "There has never been a single vaccine in this country that has ever been submitted to a controlled scientific study.


A quick Google search proves that isn't true.  I saw no need to read any farther.

----------


## donnay

[QUOTE=angelatc;4547772]


> So you're claiming that 800,000 kids don't die from measles?  I want to make absolutely sure that's what you're saying.  And I'm not sure why you insist on countering global stats with US stats.
> 
> Because the vaccination rates are higher in the US than they are in a lot of the rest of the world, it makes sense that the diseases are less prevalent in the US.


Yes, I am saying those numbers are cooked--just like the unemployment numbers the government tells us.

I am saying that in America, ALONE, sanitation, hygiene and good nutrition has made us much healthier then the third world.

----------


## angelatc

> I didn't say it was eradicated in Africa due to sanitation and hygiene.  It wasn't eradicated in Africa, it is now called monkeypox.


No, they have always been two different diseases.  Chicken pox isn't small pox either.

Now that you know that, please go back and explain how small pox was globally eliminated through sanitation and hygiene advances alone.  Also explain why none of the other diseases, monkey pox included, didn't disappear with that miracle hygiene.

----------


## libertyjam

> A quick Google search proves that isn't true.  I saw no need to read any farther.


You have extreme problems with reading comprehension Angela, along with a propensity to ignore that which doesn't conform to your personal bias.

----------


## angelatc

[QUOTE=donnay;4547795]


> Yes, I am saying those numbers are cooked--just like the unemployment numbers the government tells us.
> 
> I am saying that in America, ALONE, sanitation, hygiene and good nutrition has made us much healthier then the third world.


Nobody disputes that.  The falling death rate supports your position there.  But the diseases themselves didn't start to decline dramatically until the various vaccines were introduced.

And every single one of the diseases dropped when the vaccines were introduced.  They didn't drop simultaneously.

----------


## angelatc

> You have extreme problems with reading comprehension Angela, along with a propensity to ignore that which doesn't conform to your personal bias.


I don't think my reading comprehension is damaged.  The first sentence in that article is a lie. 




> There has never been a single vaccine in this country that has ever been submitted to a controlled scientific study.


That is a lie.

Google it yourself.   I am admittedly biased against lies - I admit that.

----------


## idiom

> Note that it was trending up and down, and was somewhere around an average rate of infection when the vaccine was introduced.


That graph starts too late.



Graph is from an actual medical textbook on public health. The data is from an actual peer-reviewed medical journal. Crazy I know.

----------


## donnay

[QUOTE=angelatc;4547799]


> Nobody disputes that.  The falling death rate supports your position there.  But the diseases themselves didn't start to decline dramatically until the various vaccines were introduced.
> 
> And every single one of the diseases dropped when the vaccines were introduced.  They didn't drop simultaneously.




Here let me enlarge the print maybe you can see it better:



*"Is smallpox history?" (The Lancet, vol. 353, no. 9164, May 8, 1999): "A pilgrim returned home to Yugoslavia from Mecca in February, 1972, with a fever… In the 4 weeks since the pilgrim first had his fever, 150 people were infected across the country. It took 4 weeks before doctors, nurses, and health authorities knew they were dealing with smallpox… 175 people contracted smallpox [thereafter] and 35 died… these events occurred in a well-vaccinated population."*

----------


## James Madison

^^^^It says he returned to Yugoslavia in 1972.

The last naturally occurring case of smallpox was in 1977 in Somalia, which is close to the Arabian peninsula.

Edit: Found this event on wikipedia of all places. Looks like it was the last major outbreak in Europe.

----------


## James Madison

//

----------


## Professor8000

> They went full force against H1N1. That's why millions did not die.
> 
> Some claim they overreacted, but I don't mind a three alarm call when my house is on fire.
> 
> From Wiki: "This strain is often called swine flu by the public media. This novel virus spread worldwide and *had caused about 17000 deaths* by the start of 2010."
> 
> I think you're have a different tune if you kid was one of the 17,000.
> 
> The acted brilliantly.


As I recall, there were more people who died from adverse reactions from the vaccines than did the actual virus. Besides, something like 300,000 people die each year from the regular flu in the United States. H1N1 was a scare tactic.

----------


## idiom

Fun Link

http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/17/...10_article.htm




> Vaccinia virus is an orthopoxvirus used in the live vaccine against smallpox. Vaccinia virus infections can be transmissible and can cause severe complications in those with weakened immune systems. We report on a cluster of 4 cases of vaccinia virus infection in Maryland, USA, likely acquired at a martial arts gym. (2008)


And from the CDC too.

----------


## idiom

Random double post.

I will use it to expound on the fact that epidemiology and most biology deals with populations, not individuals...

----------


## KingRobbStark

Unless I inject something that will cure me, and not merely delay my troubles for another year, I will keep my skeptic hat on. I'm not assuming for a fact that the vaccines of today are evil, I'm just saying that it's good to have an open mined when it comes to these kind of situations (especially with all the corruption going on).

----------


## angelatc

[QUOTE=donnay;4547795]


> Yes, I am saying those numbers are cooked--just like the unemployment numbers the government tells us.


Wow.  Nothing I can say to that.   When the facts don't fit the narrative, they're just discarded.

That explains a lot.

----------


## Revolution9

> If you want a real laugh...he lost almost all his money....due to.....wait for it.....fraud.  A contractor ripped him off.


I am laughing..seriously. He is a blowhard and deserves it so ironically.

Rev9

----------


## donnay

> ^^^^It says he returned to Yugoslavia in 1972.
> 
> The last naturally occurring case of smallpox was in 1977 in Somalia, which is close to the Arabian peninsula.
> 
> Edit: Found this event on wikipedia of all places. Looks like it was the last major outbreak in Europe.



YES, IN WIDELY VACCINATED AREAS!!!!!!!!!   READ READ READ READ!
*
"...these events occurred in a well-vaccinated population"*

----------


## libertyjam

> I don't think my reading comprehension is damaged.  The first sentence in that article is a lie. 
> 
> 
> 
> That is a lie.
> 
> Google it yourself.   I am admittedly biased against lies - I admit that.


If you actually studied what the doctor was talking about, you would know that it is not a lie.  There are exactly zero actual CONTROLLED populations used in any vaccine study ever done for submittal to the CDC, despite propaganda produced by the companies. When you actually look at what they call the control group, it is not what could legitimately be considered a "control". There are numerous citations about it, if you actually "Google" it.

----------


## angelatc

You realize that if the government posted this article as proof that smallpox wasn't really eradicated, and therefore was a reason to get your smallpox vaccine,  I'd laugh and point out this was almost 20 years ago, right?




> Here let me enlarge the print maybe you can see it better:
> 
> 
> 
> [B]"Is smallpox history?" (The Lancet, vol. 353, no. 9164, May 8, 1999): "A pilgrim returned home to Yugoslavia from Mecca in February, 1972, with a fever… In the 4 weeks since the pilgrim first had his fever, 150 people were infected across the country. It took 4 weeks before doctors, nurses, and health authorities knew they were dealing with smallpox… 175 people contracted smallpox [thereafter] and 35 died… these events occurred in a well-vaccinated population."[/SIZE]



We already knew that smallpox wasn't eradicated by 1972.    

http://www8.georgetown.edu/centers/c...y&posterID=881




> The Vaccine is extremely effective, but gives the recipients full immunity from smallpox for 3-5 years, with decreasing immunity thereafter. The Yugoslavian index case likely experienced a mild case of smallpox because he had been immunized just months before.


The mortality rate of the Yugoslavian outbreak was lower than the average 35%.

The entire population was immediately shut down and  indoor plumbing was installed re-vaccinated.   End of outbreak.

----------


## angelatc

> If you actually studied what the doctor was talking about, you would know that it is not a lie.  There are exactly zero actual CONTROLLED populations used in any vaccine study ever done for submittal to the CDC, despite propaganda produced by the companies. When you actually look at what they call the control group, it is not what could legitimately be considered a "control". There are numerous citations about it, if you actually "Google" it.


Ok, let's say you're right.

Are you also saying that vaccines don't actually work?  Or that you can't really tell if they work?

----------


## James Madison

> YES, IN WIDELY VACCINATED AREAS!!!!!!!!!   READ READ READ READ!


You assume two things that are not true. 

1. The entire population was vaccinated
2. The vaccine is always effective, which is never the case

Chances are this guy contracted the virus, served as a walking incubator for a week or two, and spread it to several people back in Yugoslavia, who, in turn, spread to others who weren't immune.

----------


## angelatc

> As I recall, there were more people who died from adverse reactions from the vaccines than did the actual virus. Besides, something like 300,000 people die each year from the regular flu in the United States. H1N1 was a scare tactic.


And wasn't there a huge shortage of vaccines too?  And by the time they arrived, the danger had already passed??

----------


## libertyjam

> Ok, let's say you're right.
> 
> Are you also saying that vaccines don't actually work?  Or that you can't really tell if they work?


No, like you say it seems most vaccines give limited immunity (and there are some that flat out do not work and some that have actually increased disease), but if you look at the actual overall picture as some doctors do most vaccines are detrimental to the population as a whole in the long term. 

examples : Before vaccines, outbreaks of measles were observed in 2 to 3 year cycles, and 95% of the population developed immunity by the age of fifteen. 

The original idea that vaccination could strengthen the herd’s immunity, assumed that there was only one clinical event, and that one natural exposure equated life -long immunity.  But this was not the case back when the diseases circulated freely.  Vaccinators miss the point that the body defends most efficiently as a result of ongoing re-exposure. They try to mimic this with boosters. But the vaccination plan leaves the elderly(due to vaccine-induced immunity being short-lived and antigens taken out of circulation) and the very young(due to lack of transferrable maternal immunity) more vulnerable to several diseases that were not a threat to them before vaccination.  In the case of chicken pox, vaccination renders the elderly more apt to shingles infections, because the herd has now lost the continued and benign re-exposures to children with chicken pox.

It is well documented that prior to vaccination, cycles of natural infection added to the herd’s immunity. 

“The formal demonstration that both maternal antibodies and early exposure to infection are required for long-term protection illustrated that constant re-infection cycles have an essential role in building a stable herd immunity.   

In a population that is not constantly exposed to the infection during early infancy under the immunologic umbrella of maternal antibodies or vaccinated thoroughly a serious risk of re-emerging infections may arise. “  

Vaccination creates a “quasi-sterile” environment that opens up the possibility of disease outbreaks. 

“Attempts to eradicate measles virus or poliovirus eliminates antigen exposure of infants to these pathogens.  Such quasi-sterile epidemiological situations may actually increase the risk of outbreaks.” 

We know this is possible because there have been eruptions of measles in the USA in populations that were 100 percent vaccinated.  

“The affected high school had 276 students and was in the same building as a junior high school with 135 students. A review of health records in the high school showed that all 411 students had documentation of measles vaccination on or after the first birthday, in accordance with Illinois law.” 

Within the scope of vaccination, when a quasi-sterile situation is created, and measles breaks out in the midst, the only solution within that paradigm is to vaccinate more people, more often.  This is a backwards solution to the problem when considering who remains susceptible even in the face of full compliance: infants and non-immune adults. Susceptible age groups have essentially traded places since vaccinating.   What used to happen with measles is that infants were protected by maternal antibodies, adults were protected by continued exposure, and infected children handled the disease normally and became immune for long periods of time.  So, while measles vaccines have decreased the expression of measles infections, it has not necessarily improved the bigger picture.  And certainly there are numerous troubles with the side effects of the vaccine.  

Prior to vaccination, mothers were naturally immune to measles and passed that immunity to their infants via placenta and breast milk. Vaccinated mothers may have vaccine immunity, which is not the same immunologically, as natural immunity.  One of the major differences in the vaccine-induced immunity is that it cannot be passed from mother to infant.

From  "“Herd Immunity.” The flawed science and failures of mass vaccination."
                                            Suzanne Humphries, MD

----------


## angelatc

> That graph starts too late.
> 
> 
> 
> Graph is from an actual medical textbook on public health. The data is from an actual peer-reviewed medical journal. Crazy I know.


No, apples and oranges.  Death rates vs infection rates, for starts.

----------


## RonRules

> As I recall, there were more people who died from adverse reactions from the vaccines than did the actual virus.


Recall harder or google before you post:

"Using data from the CDC's National 2009 H1N1 Flu Survey, the authors estimated that 82.4 million doses of H1N1 vaccines were administered in the 4-month study period. That included *64.6 million doses of inactivated vaccine and 17.5 million doses* of live attenuated (intranasal) vaccine.

...

Of 176 possible GBS reports, the authors verified 99 (56%). Ninety-three patients had GBS onset within the "biologically plausible window" of 42 days after vaccination. The GBS reporting rates were 0.42 per million vaccinees for those younger than 25 and 1.75 per million for those 25 and older, both of which are below the expected population background rates, based on a CDC analysis of published reports.

VAERS *reports related to the H1N1 vaccine included 48 deaths*. Cardiovascular conditions were listed as the cause of death in 22 cases, and *45 of the 48 victims had underlying medical conditions and risk factors for cardiovascular disease.* There were no anaphylaxis deaths."

Remember 17,000 - 18,500 people died of H1N1.

Of the 48 people that died allegedly because of the vaccine, 45 had heart disease risk factors.

----------


## angelatc

> No, like you say it seems most vaccines give limited immunity (and there are some that flat out do not work and some that have actually increased disease), but if you look at the actual overall picture as some doctors do most vaccines are detrimental to the population as a whole in the long term.


I have to be blunt. I think that's it's literally crazy to assert that vaccines are detrimental to the population as a whole.  Vaccines and antibiotics are miracles.

Lets look at that Indiana school.  What year was it?  I'd really like to know, because the only high school infection I can find documented was in a Christian Scientist High school, which almost certainly means the vaccine rate was probably closet to 0%.  But it wasn't in Indiana.




> examples : Before vaccines, outbreaks of measles were observed in 2 to 3 year cycles, and 95% of the population developed immunity by the age of fifteen.





> Each year in the United States, there were approximately three to four million cases, and *an average of 450 deaths*. Epidemic cycles occurred every two to three years. More than half the population had measles by the time they were six years old, and 90 percent had the disease by the time they were 15 years old. However, after the measles vaccine became available, the number of measles cases dropped by 99 percent, and the epidemic cycles diminished drastically.


The USA has had no measles related deaths since 2008.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/




> In 1980, before widespread vaccination, measles caused an estimated 2.6 million deaths each year.








And btw - measles primarily only killed children. Only the survivors developed immunity.

----------


## Professor8000

> And wasn't there a huge shortage of vaccines too?  And by the time they arrived, the danger had already passed??


IIRC they conveniently arrived just after swine flu hit it's peak and while the media was screaming at the top of its lungs about how many people were dying. Then the story was gone and they didn't tell anyone about the numbers of people dying from the untested but FDA approved swine flu vaccine.

----------


## libertyjam

> I have to be blunt. I think that's it's literally crazy to assert that vaccines are detrimental to the population as a whole.  Vaccines and antibiotics are miracles.
> 
> Lets look at that Indiana school.  What year was it?  
> 
> And btw - measles killed children. Only the survivors developed immunity.


  Measles Outbreak among Vaccinated High School Students – Illinois.  MMWR. June 22, 1984 / 33(24);349-51  

And why do we have to vaccinate newborns now? Because they have lost the ability to acquire immunity from their mother's due to .... Vaccinations!

Prior to vaccination, mothers were naturally immune to measles and passed that immunity to their infants via placenta and breast milk. Vaccinated mothers may have vaccine immunity, *which is not the same immunologically, as natural immunity. One of the major differences in the vaccine-induced immunity is that it cannot be passed from mother to infant.*

and btw - vaccines kill children, every day of every year.  And VAERS is under reported by about 90%.

----------


## James Madison

> And why do we have to vaccinate newborns now? Because they have lost the ability to acquire immunity from their mother's due to .... Vaccinations!
> 
> Prior to vaccination, mothers were naturally immune to measles and passed that immunity to their infants via placenta and breast milk. Vaccinated mothers may have vaccine immunity, *which is not the same immunologically, as natural immunity. One of the major differences in the vaccine-induced immunity is that it cannot be passed from mother to infant.*


?????????????

----------


## donnay

[QUOTE=angelatc;4547845]


> We already knew that smallpox wasn't eradicated by 1972.    
> 
> http://www8.georgetown.edu/centers/c...y&posterID=881
> 
> 
> 
> The mortality rate of the Yugoslavian outbreak was lower than the average 35%.
> 
> The entire population was immediately shut down and re-vaccinated.   End of outbreak.



ROFLMAO!  FFS!  If vaccines work, why were they re-vaccinated?

----------


## Professor8000

> Recall harder or google before you post:
> 
> "Using data from the CDC's National 2009 H1N1 Flu Survey, the authors estimated that 82.4 million doses of H1N1 vaccines were administered in the 4-month study period. That included *64.6 million doses of inactivated vaccine and 17.5 million doses* of live attenuated (intranasal) vaccine.
> 
> ...
> 
> Of 176 possible GBS reports, the authors verified 99 (56%). Ninety-three patients had GBS onset within the "biologically plausible window" of 42 days after vaccination. The GBS reporting rates were 0.42 per million vaccinees for those younger than 25 and 1.75 per million for those 25 and older, both of which are below the expected population background rates, based on a CDC analysis of published reports.
> 
> VAERS *reports related to the H1N1 vaccine included 48 deaths*. Cardiovascular conditions were listed as the cause of death in 22 cases, and *45 of the 48 victims had underlying medical conditions and risk factors for cardiovascular disease.* There were no anaphylaxis deaths."
> ...





> CDC Estimates of 2009 H1N1 Cases and Related Hospitalizations and Deaths in the United States from April-November 14, 2009
> ~7,070 to ~13,930


 cdc.gov

So, you mean to tell me that the vast majority of people who died from H1N1 died in the United States of America?

----------


## angelatc

> Measles Outbreak among Vaccinated High School Students – Illinois.  MMWR. June 22, 1984 / 33(24);349-51


That makes sense.  If you look at the chart that I posted, thats the era when they saw that one vaccine wasn't enough, and started giving two.  





> And why do we have to vaccinate newborns now? Because they have lost the ability to acquire immunity from their mother's due to .... Vaccinations!


Oh, ok.  So it's more important to give a newborn a temporary immunity to measles through breastmilk than it is to make sure her future mother actually survives childhood.  

America has had zero - none - nada - zilch - death from measles in the last 4 years.  I'm thinking the greater good is the vaccine for that reason.



> Prior to vaccination, mothers were naturally immune to measles and passed that immunity to their infants via placenta and breast milk. Vaccinated mothers may have vaccine immunity, *which is not the same immunologically, as natural immunity. One of the major differences in the vaccine-induced immunity is that it cannot be passed from mother to infant.*


*
*
So?  The immunity was only temporary, as those children were infected later in life, as you pointed out.     

and btw - vaccines kill children, every day of every year.  And VAERS is under reported by about 90%.[/QUOTE]

----------


## RonRules

> Lets look at that Indiana school.  What year was it?  I'd really like to know, because the only high school infection I can find documented was in a Christian Scientist High school, which almost certainly means the vaccine rate was probably closet to 0%.  But it wasn't in Indiana.


Look around Loma Linda California, there's a bunch of Christian Scientists here.

----------


## donnay

> Look around Loma Linda California, there's a bunch of Christian Scientists here.



Oh you get your news from Rush Limpballs, eh?  You know the guy who likes to doctor shop and get his hillbilly heroin.   That explains a lot.

Edit to add:  That's Yorba Linda, California

----------


## angelatc

[QUOTE=donnay;4547896]


> ROFLMAO!  FFS!  If vaccines work, why were they re-vaccinated?


What part of "full immunity for 3-5 years" confused you?

----------


## RonRules

That's basically the problem here:

*The danger of science denial*



At around the two minute mark there's a discussion of vaccine-autism claims

----------


## Professor8000

It's been about 11 years since I've had the flu, and I have never had a flu shot. After all those years of mutations, you would think I would be getting sick every year. It turns out that my immune system picked up immunity after fighting off the flu when I was 11. The only thing that affects me on a regular basis is my allergies and that's because I stay inside too much. I believe that if you just eat healthy and supplement your diet to boost your immune system when fighting an infection, you will be better off. The flu vaccine is a scam for most people.

----------


## angelatc

> You have extreme problems with reading comprehension Angela, along with a propensity to ignore that which doesn't conform to your personal bias.


Thanks for the neg rep, by the way.    Loser.

----------


## donnay

[QUOTE=angelatc;4547902]


> What part of "full immunity for 3-5 years" confused you?




What part of autoimmune disease from vaccines baffles you?

http://www.whale.to/vaccines/autoimmune1.htm

"Dr. H.H. Fudenberg, world-renowned immunologist with hundreds of publications to his credit, made the following comments: “One vaccine decreases cell-mediated immunity by 50%, two vaccines by 70%…all triple vaccines (MMR, DTaP) markedly impair cell-mediated immunity, which predisposes to recurrent viral infections, especially otitis media, as well as yeast and fungi infections.”--Harold E. Buttram, MD; Susan Kreider, RN; Alan R. Yurko

----------


## angelatc

[QUOTE=angelatc;4547899]That makes sense.  If you look at the chart that I posted, thats the era when they saw that one vaccine wasn't enough, and started giving two.  




Oh, ok.  So it's more important to give a newborn a temporary immunity to measles through breastmilk than it is to make sure her future mother actually survives childhood.  

America has had zero - none - nada - zilch - death from measles in the last 4 years.  I'm thinking the greater good is the vaccine for that reason.

[/B]
So?  The immunity was only temporary, as those children were infected later in life, as you pointed out.     




> and btw - vaccines kill children, every day of every year.  And VAERS is under reported by about 90%.


Even if Vaers were underreported by 1000%, the adjustment would still come nowhere near reporting  that vaccines were killing a child every day of every year.

If one child a year dies from a vaccine, whereas 450 a year died from the disease, the best odds are with getting the vaccine.  Hopefully as we learn more about the differences in physiology between individuals, that won't be a factor any longer either. (Actually, it's not even a factor now. )

----------


## Weston White

> Learn about mutations. 
> 
> Viruses mutate at least on a yearly basis, which is why the elderly to take a new flu shot every year.
> 
> Even if vaccinated, viruses mutate and the vaccine is no longer effective.
> 
> If EVERYONE is vaccinated, the virus is gone. That's why.


Newsflash, there are hundreds upon hundreds of virus mutations each year, all throughout the year, further being varied by region, climate, and locale.  Hence, getting vaccinated is merely a piss in the wind.

Our Creator had individually gifted us with immune (and nervous, etc.) systems for a reason, and that reason was never intended to generate windfall profits throughout the course of every single year for pharmaceutical companies, medical professionals, government mandates, and now national big-box stores.

Vaccination programs are a scheme dreamed up both by technocrats and eugenicists alike.  You want to live healthy, maintain a healthy and honest lifestyle, while consuming organic foods and fluids as part of a well-balanced diet and engaging in regular exercise, good rest, and dressing appropriately throughout the changing seasons.

----------


## angelatc

[QUOTE=donnay;4547908]


> What part of autoimmune disease from vaccines baffles you?
> 
> http://www.whale.to/vaccines/autoimmune1.htm
> 
> "Dr. H.H. Fudenberg, world-renowned immunologist with hundreds of publications to his credit, made the following comments: “One vaccine decreases cell-mediated immunity by 50%, two vaccines by 70%…all triple vaccines (MMR, DTaP) markedly impair cell-mediated immunity, which predisposes to recurrent viral infections, especially otitis media, as well as yeast and fungi infections.”--Harold E. Buttram, MD; Susan Kreider, RN; Alan R. Yurko


Which, among other things, has absolutely nothing to do with the small pox outbreak we were talking about.  

Seriously, I said "Small pox was eradicated in 1989.

You said, "There was an outbreak in 1974."

I said, "So?"

YOu said "They were vaccinated!"

I said, "The effectiveness is maxed at 3-5 years"

You said,' See? I told you they didn't work!"

I said, "They work for 3 - 5 years"

You said "Autoimmiune!!!"

WTF?

----------


## angelatc

> Our Creator had individually gifted us with immune (and nervous, etc.) systems for a reason, and that reason was never intended to generate windfall profits throughout the course of every single year for pharmaceutical companies, medical professionals, government mandates, and now national big-box stores..


You have no idea what the Creator intended His gifts to bring to anybody.  Some of us think that He gave us knowledge in addition to tools.

----------


## donnay

[QUOTE=angelatc;4547917]


> Which, among other things, has absolutely nothing to do with the small pox outbreak we were talking about.  
> 
> Seriously, I said "Small pox was eradicated in 1989.
> 
> You said, "There was an outbreak in 1974."
> 
> I said, "So?"
> 
> YOu said "They were vaccinated!"
> ...



Angela,

You need to go back and re-read this thread after you have had some sleep.

I agree with Weston, God did gift us in so many ways when he created us.  It's up to us, to learn to listen to our bodies.  Our bodies cannot help us, unless we help it with good nutrition--vitamins, minerals and amino acids.  Our immune system is in our small intestine, if our gut is sick, so are we.  It has been proven that vaccines, and the cocktail of ingredients within the vaccine, affect the intestines--we have diseases such as Crohns, IBS, and ulcerated colitis, Celiac disease, autoimmune disease, hepatitis, arthritis and a whole list of other chronic illnesses that stem from vaccines.  Not to mention, the epidemic of Autism in children.  Consequently, along with all the diseases mentioned above, each one requires a specialists to help treat the persons disease--not cure, but treat.  Chronic illness along with Cancer is a booming business!  Lots of times you have to follow the money, see the motives and know the agendas.

But you won't find the answers without researching them yourself.

----------


## libertyjam

[QUOTE=angelatc;4547915]


> Even if Vaers were underreported by 1000%, the adjustment would still come nowhere near reporting  that vaccines were killing a child every day of every year.


You can only under-report up to 100%, as in 100% would = 0 reporting.

----------


## Revolution9

> You have no idea what the Creator intended His gifts to bring to anybody.  Some of us think that He gave us knowledge in addition to tools.


Yes. Remember that. But don't get all high on the hog and deny anybody their connection to their Creator. That is just plain metaphysically rude like the frikkin' Pope.



Rev9

----------


## libertyjam

[QUOTE=donnay;4547927]


> I agree with Weston, God did gift us in so many ways when he created us.  It's up to us, to learn to listen to our bodies.  Our bodies cannot help us, unless we help it with good nutrition--vitamins, minerals and amino acids.  Our immune system is in our small intestine, if our gut is sick, so are we.  It has been proven that vaccines, and the cocktail of ingredients within the vaccine, affect the intestines--we have diseases such as Crohns, IBS, and ulcerated colitis, Celiac disease, autoimmune disease, hepatitis, arthritis and a whole list of other chronic illnesses that stem from vaccines.  Not to mention, the epidemic of Autism in children.  Consequently, along with all the diseases mentioned above, each one requires a specialists to help treat the persons disease--not cure, but treat.  Chronic illness along with Cancer is a booming business!  Lots of times you have to follow the money, see the motives and know the agendas.


Not to mention SIDS, misdiagnosed Shaken-Baby syndrome, Encephalitis and Encephalopathies,  Meningitis,  Lupus(auto-immune), etc.

----------


## Weston White

> You have no idea what the Creator intended His gifts to bring to anybody.  Some of us think that He gave us knowledge in addition to tools.


Don't bother telling me that I have no idea as to such concerns, as the intent is clearly obvious to all.  And yes we were granted knowledge as part of our humanity; however, man and woman devised and created Earthly tools based upon both convenience and necessity and not our Creator.  Vaccinations could hardly qualify for the latter, while such just may qualify for the former.

----------


## Acala

> ABSOLUTELY NOT!
> 
> Man, this is going to be a long day!
> 
> Even if you're on my side, I won't let you get away with ANY crap!
> 
> Let Randi explain you Homeopathy:


Randi is full of crap even when he is right.

Without saying anything about the efficacy of homeopathy as practiced, because I don't know, the basic IDEA is that by exposing the body to a small amount of a substance that causes the problem you are trying to solve, the body is stimulated to develop a natural counter to the illness.  Same with vaccination - you introduce a selected antigen of the organism you want to develop immunity for and the body builds antibodies.  Vaccination is essentially a controlled infection with the disease you want to prevent, either with an attenuated live virus or a killed virus, and the body responds with the ability to defeat the disease.

----------


## RonRules

> Randi is full of crap even when he is right.


Oxymoronic for a start. Randi is the greatest and he's not full of crap.





> exposing the body to a small amount of a substance that causes the problem


Either watch the video or calculate what a homeopathic 30C dose means. Remember that Avogadro's number is 6.0221415 E +23

You should come to your senses.

----------


## RonRules

I missed that you were from the Sonoran desert.

Never mind.

----------


## RonRules

You may need help here. From Wiki:

30C = 10E−60 (Dilution advocated by Hahnemann for most purposes)

*The patient would need to consume 10E+41 pills* (a billion times the mass of the Earth), or 1034 gallons of liquid remedy (10 billion times the volume of the Earth) to consume a single molecule of the original substance.

Moreover, since even in a 15C solution, very likely be no molecules of the original substance would be left, the 30C solution would probably contain no molecules of water that had come into contact with the original substance.

----------


## RonRules

You may hate Big Pharma.

I hate Big Placebo!

----------


## donnay

> *America has had zero - none - nada - zilch - death from measles in the last 4 years.  I'm thinking the greater good is the vaccine for that reason.*


That phrase is a very collectivist phrase--"the greater good."  






"The Greater Good Is More Important Than Your Human Rights"





> and btw - vaccines kill children, every day of every year. And VAERS is under reported by about 90%


I would like to see some independent reports done on vaccine efficacy--meaning outside the system to look into all the evidence of vaccinated Vs. non-vaccinated, with no biases or ties to Big Pharma.  Unfortunately, I have a better chance of seeing God then seeing any independent, non-bias evidence. 

Obama's Science Czar, John P. Holdren in 1977 helped to co-author a book called Eco-Science.  Page 787-8: Mass sterilization of humans though drugs in the water supply is okay as long as it doesn't harm livestock.  

http://zombietime.com/john_holdren/



*Adding a sterilant to drinking water or staple foods is a suggestion that seems to horrify people more than most proposals for involuntary fertility control. Indeed, this would pose some very difficult political, legal, and social questions, to say nothing of the technical problems. No such sterilant exists today, nor does one appear to be under development. To be acceptable, such a substance would have to meet some rather stiff requirements: it must be uniformly effective, despite widely varying doses received by individuals, and despite varying degrees of fertility and sensitivity among individuals; it must be free of dangerous or unpleasant side effects; and it must have no effect on members of the opposite sex, children, old people, pets, or livestock. 
*

"Between 1929 and 1974, North Carolina sterilized more than 7,500 residents for being "feebleminded" and unfit to reproduce.

(...)

Nationwide, 32 other states had eugenics programs during the 20th century, resulting in the sterilization of more than 60,000 Americans."

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...ugenics-photos

Some may think this was for the greater good.  I say you have NO right to make decisions for me or anyone else.  By acquiescing to the pseudoscience we have been force fed for decades, I think it is time for people to say, "NO TO DRUGS" with regards to pharmaceuticals drugs! 

These are the sick minds that are woven within our government and use our government to further their agendas.  The Eugenicists that go under the guise of Philanthropists--Rockefeller, Carnegie's, Kellogg's and The Gate's.  

"By 1934, Germany was performing up to 5,000 forced sterilizations a month on anyone who didnt meet Aryan perfection.

Ironically, while U.S. citizens criticized the cruelty perpetrated by the Third Reich, they allowed many similar policies to flourish in places like North Carolina."

http://www.topsecretwriters.com/2012...nics-movement/ 

"If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny"  --Thomas Jefferson

"To be awake is to be alive."  --Henry David Thoreau

----------


## jmdrake

> Get your facts straight. You know thimerosal was removed a long time ago. You guys were certain it caused autism. It made no difference.
> 
> Try again.


According to the FDA thimerosal is still in vaccines.  That's why they have a table of vaccines that do and do not contain thimerosal.

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVac...y/UCM096228#t1

Get your own facts straight.

----------


## RonRules

Comment from Harriet A. Hall, MD, a retired family physician and former Air Force flight surgeon:

"The precise science based message is this: *autism is no more correlated with vaccines than with pirates*, vaccines have been ruled out as a possible cause of autism, and while there are VERY small risks with vaccines, the risks of not vaccinating are far greater."

----------


## RonRules

> "Between 1929 and 1974, North Carolina sterilized more than 7,500 residents for being "feebleminded" and unfit to reproduce.


Now donnay is bringing in eugenics.

Godwin's law is just about to kick in.

Nazi's anyone?

----------


## RonRules

> http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVac...y/UCM096228#t1
> 
> Get your own facts straight.


I thought you sad the FDA was not a good source of information?

----------


## donnay

Bill Gates talks about ‘vaccines to reduce population’


By *F. William Engdahl*, 4 March 2010



Microsoft founder and one of the world’s wealthiest men, Bill Gates, projects an image of a benign philanthropist using his billions via his (tax exempt) Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, to tackle diseases, solve food shortages in Africa and alleviate poverty. In a recent conference in California, Gates reveals a less public agenda of his philanthropy―population reduction, otherwise known as eugenics.

Gates made his remarks to the invitation-only Long Beach, California TED2010 Conference, in a speech titled, “Innovating to Zero!.” Along with the scientifically absurd proposition of reducing manmade CO2 emissions worldwide to zero by 2050, approximately four and a half minutes into the talk, Gates declares, "First we got population. The world today has 6.8 billion people. That's headed up to about 9 billion. Now if we do a really great job on new vaccines, health care, reproductive health services, we lower that by perhaps 10 or 15 percent."1 (author’s emphasis).

In plain English, one of the most powerful men in the world states clearly that he expects vaccines to be used to reduce population growth. When Bill Gates speaks about vaccines, he speaks with authority. In January 2010 at the elite Davos World Economic Forum, Gates announced his foundation would give $10 billion (circa €7.5 billion) over the next decade to develop and deliver new vaccines to children in the developing world.

The primary focus of his multi-billion dollar Gates Foundation is vaccinations, especially in Africa and other underdeveloped countries. Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is a founding member of the GAVI Alliance (Global Alliance for Vaccinations and Immunization) in partnership with the World Bank, WHO and the vaccine industry. The goal of GAVI is to vaccinate every newborn child in the developing world.2

Now that sounds like noble philanthropic work. The problem is that the vaccine industry has been repeatedly caught dumping dangerous―meaning unsafe because untested or proven harmful―vaccines onto unwitting Third World populations when they cannot get rid of the vaccines in the West.3 Some organizations have suggested that the true aim of the vaccinations is to make people sicker and even more susceptible to disease and premature death.4

Dumping toxins on the Third World

In the aftermath of the most recent unnecessary Pandemic declaration of a global H1N1 swine flu emergency, industrial countries were left sitting on hundreds of millions of doses of untested vaccines. They decided to get rid of the embarrassing leftover drugs by handing them over to the WHO which in turn plans to dump them for free on select poor countries. France has given 91 million of the 94 million doses the Sarkozy government bought from the pharma giants; Britain gave 55 million of its 60 million doses. The story for Germany and Norway is similar.5

As Dr. Thomas Jefferson, an epidemiologist with the Cochrane Research Center in Rome noted, “Why do they give the vaccines to the developing countries at all? The pandemic has been called off in most parts of the world. The greatest threat in poor countries right now is heart and circulatory diseases while the virus figures at the bottom of the list. What is the medical reason for donating 180 million doses?”6 As well, flu is a minor problem in countries with abundant sunshine, and it turned out that the feared H1N1 Pandemic “new great plague” was the mildest flu on record.

The pharmaceutical vaccine makers do not speak about the enormous health damage from infant vaccination including autism and numerous neuro-muscular deformities that have been traced back to the toxic adjuvants and preservatives used in most vaccines. Many vaccines, especially multi-dose vaccines that are made more cheaply for sale to the Third World, contain something called Thimerosal (Thiomersol in the EU), a compound (sodium ethylmercurithiosalicylate), containing some 50% mercury, used as a preservative.

In July 1999 the US’ National Vaccine Information Center declared in a press release that, "The cumulative effects of ingesting mercury can cause brain damage." The same month, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) alerted the public about the possible health effects associated with thimerosal-containing vaccines. They strongly recommended that thimerosal be removed from vaccines as soon as possible. Under the directive of the FDA Modernization Act of 1997, the Food and Drug Administration also determined that infants who received several thimerosal-containing vaccines may be receiving mercury exposure over and above the recommended federal guidelines.7

A new form of eugenics?

Gates’ interest in inducing population reduction among black and other minority populations is not new unfortunately. As I document in my book, Seeds of Destruction8, since the 1920’s the Rockefeller Foundation had funded the eugenics research in Germany through the Kaiser-Wilhelm Institutes in Berlin and Munich, including well into the Third Reich. They praised the forced sterilization of people by Hirtler Germany, and the Nazi ideas on race “purity.” It was John D. Rockefeller III, a life-long advocate of eugenics, who used his “tax free” foundation money to initiate the population reduction neo-Malthusian movement through his private Population Council in New York beginning in the 1950’s.

The idea of using vaccines to covertly reduce births in the Third World is also not new. Bill Gates’ good friend, David Rockefeller and his Rockefeller Foundation were involved as early as 1972 in a major project together with WHO and others to perfect another “new vaccine.”

The results of the WHO-Rockefeller project were put into mass application on human guinea pigs in the early 1990's. The WHO oversaw massive vaccination campaigns against tetanus in Nicaragua, Mexico and the Philippines. Comite Pro Vida de Mexico, a Roman Catholic lay organization, became suspicious of the motives behind the WHO program and decided to test numerous vials of the vaccine and found them to contain human Chorionic Gonadotrophin, or hCG. That was a curious component for a vaccine designed to protect people against lock-jaw arising from infection with rusty nail wounds or other contact with certain bacteria found in soil. The tetanus disease was indeed, also rather rare. It was also curious because hCG was a natural hormone needed to maintain a pregnancy. However, when combined with a tetanus toxoid carrier, it stimulated formation of antibodies against hCG, rendering a woman incapable of maintaining a pregnancy, a form of concealed abortion. Similar reports of vaccines laced with hCG hormones came from the Philippines and Nicaragua.9

Gates’ ‘Gene Revolution in Africa’

The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, along with David Rockefeller’s Rockefeller Foundation, the creators of the GMO biotechnology, are also financing a project called The Alliance for a Green Revolution in Africa (AGRA) headed by former UN chief, Kofi Annan. Accepting the role as AGRA head in June 2007 Annan expressed his “gratitude to the Rockefeller Foundation, the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, and all others who support our African campaign.” The AGRA board is dominated by people from both the Gates’ and Rockefeller foundations.10

Monsanto, DuPont, Dow, Syngenta and other major GMO agribusiness giants are reported at the heart of AGRA, using it as a back-door to spread their patented GMO seeds across Africa under the deceptive label, ‘bio-technology,’ a euphemism for genetically engineered patented seeds. The person from the Gates Foundation responsible for its work with AGRA is Dr. Robert Horsch, a 25-year Monsanto GMO veteran who was on the team that developed Monsanto’s RoundUp Ready GMO technologies.  His job is reportedly to use Gates’ money to introduce GMO into Africa.11

To date South Africa is the only African country permitting legal planting of GMO crops. In 2003 Burkina Faso authorized GMO trials. In 2005 Kofi Annan’s Ghana drafted bio-safety legislation and key officials expressed their intentions to pursue research into GMO crops. AGRA is being used to create networks of “agro-dealers” across Africa, at first with no mention of GMO seeds or herbicides, in order to have the infrastructure in place to massively introduce GMO.12

GMO, glyphosate and population reduction

GMO crops have never been proven safe for human or animal consumption. Moreover, they are inherently genetically ‘unstable’ as they are an unnatural product of introducing a foreign bacteria such as Bacillus Thuringiensis (Bt) or other material into the DNA of a given seed to change its traits. Perhaps equally dangerous are the ‘paired’ chemical herbicides sold as a mandatory part of a GMO contract, such as Monsanto’s Roundup, the most widely used such herbicide in the world. It contains highly toxic glyphosate compounds that have been independently tested and proven to exist in toxic concentrations in GMO applications far above that safe for humans or animals. Tests show that tiny amounts of glyphosate compounds would do damage to a human umbilical, embryonic and placental cells in a pregnant woman drinking the ground water near a GMO field.13

One long-standing project of the US Government has been to perfect a genetically-modified variety of corn, the diet staple in Mexico and many other Latin American countries. The corn has been field tested in tests financed by the US Department of Agriculture along with a small California bio-tech company named Epicyte. Announcing his success at a 2001 press conference, the president of Epicyte, Mitch Hein, pointing to his GMO corn plants, announced, “We have a hothouse filled with corn plants that make anti-sperm antibodies.”14

Hein explained that they had taken antibodies from women with a rare condition known as immune infertility, isolated the genes that regulated the manufacture of those infertility antibodies, and, using genetic engineering techniques, had inserted the genes into ordinary corn seeds used to produce corn plants. In this manner, in reality they produced a concealed contraceptive embedded in corn meant for human consumption. “Essentially, the antibodies are attracted to surface receptors on the sperm,” said Hein. “They latch on and make each sperm so heavy it cannot move forward. It just shakes about as if it was doing the lambada.”15 Hein claimed it was a possible solution to world “over-population.” The moral and ethical issues of feeding it to humans in Third World poor countries without their knowing it countries he left out of his remarks.

Spermicides hidden in GMO corn provided to starving Third World populations through the generosity of the Gates’ foundation, Rockefeller Foundation and Kofi Annan’s AGRA or vaccines that contain undisclosed sterilization agents are just two documented cases of using vaccines or GMO seeds to “reduce population.”

And the ‘Good Club’

Gates’ TED2010 speech on zero emissions and population reduction is consistent with a report that appeared in New York City’s ethnic media, Irish.Central.com in May 2009. According to the report, a secret meeting took place on May 5, 2009 at the home of Sir Paul Nurse, President of Rockefeller University, among some of the wealthiest people in America. Investment guru Warren Buffett who in 2006 decided to pool his $30 billion Buffett Foundation into the Gates foundation to create the world’s largest private foundation with some $60 billions of tax-free dollars was present. Banker David Rockefeller was the host.

The exclusive letter of invitation was signed by Gates, Rockefeller and Buffett. They decided to call themselves the “Good Club.” Also present was media czar Ted Turner, billionaire founder of CNN who stated in a 1996 interview for the Audubon nature magazine, where he said that a 95% reduction of world population to between 225-300 million would be “ideal.” In a 2008 interview at Philadelphia’s Temple University, Turner fine-tuned the number to 2 billion, a cut of more than 70% from today’s population. Even less elegantly than Gates, Turner stated, “we have too many people. That’s why we have global warming. We need less people using less stuff (sic).”16

Others attending this first meeting of the Good Club reportedly were: Eli Broad real estate billionaire, New York’s billionaire Mayor Michael Bloomberg and Wall Street billionaire and Council on Foreign Relations former head, Peter G. Peterson.

In addition, Julian H. Robertson, Jr., hedge-fund billionaire who worked with Soros attacking the currencies of Thailand, Indonesia, South Korea and the Asian Tigen economies, precipitating the 1997-98 Asia Crisis. Also present at the first session of the Good Club was Patty Stonesifer, former chief executive of the Gates foundation, and John Morgridge of Cisco Systems. The group represented a combined fortune of more than $125 billion.17

According to reports apparently leaked by one of the attendees, the meeting was held in response to the global economic downturn and the numerous health and environmental crises that are plaguing the globe.

But the central theme and purpose of the secret Good Club meeting of the plutocrats was the priority concern posed by Bill Gates, namely, how to advance more effectively their agenda of birth control and global population reduction. In the talks a consensus reportedly emerged that they would “back a strategy in which population growth would be tackled as a potentially disastrous environmental, social and industrial threat.”18

Global Eugenics agenda

Gates and Buffett are major funders of global population reduction programs, as is Turner, whose UN Foundation was created to funnel $1 billion of his tax-free stock option earnings in AOL-Time-Warner into various birth reduction programs in the developing world.19 The programs in Africa and elsewhere are masked as philanthropy and providing health services for poor Africans. In reality they involve involuntary population sterilization via vaccination and other medicines that make women of child-bearing age infertile. The Gates Foundation, where Buffett deposited the bulk of his wealth two years ago, is also backing introduction of GMO seeds into Africa under the cloak of the Kofi Annan-led ‘Second Green Revolution’ in Africa. The introduction of GMO patented seeds in Africa to date has met with enormous indigenous resistance.

Health experts point out that were the intent of Gates really to improve the health and well-being of black Africans, the same hundreds of millions of dollars the Gates Foundation has invested in untested and unsafe vaccines could be used in providing minimal sanitary water and sewage systems. Vaccinating a child who then goes to drink feces-polluted river water is hardly healthy in any respect. But of course cleaning up the water and sewage systems of Africa would revolutionize the health conditions of the Continent.

Gates’ TED2010 comments about having new vaccines to reduce global population were obviously no off-the-cuff remark. For those who doubt, the presentation Gates made at the TED2009 annual gathering said almost exactly the same thing about reducing population to cut global warming. For the mighty and powerful of the Good Club, human beings seem to be a form of pollution equal to CO2.





1 Bill Gates, “Innovating to Zero!, speech to the TED2010 annual conference, Long Beach, California, February 18, 2010, accessed here

2 Telegraph.co.uk, Bill Gates makes $10 billion vaccine pledge, London Telegraph, January 29, 2010, accessed here

3 Louise Voller, Kristian Villesen, WHO Donates Millions of Doses of Surplus Medical Supplies to Developing countries,  Danish Information, 22 December 2009, accessed here

4 One is the Population Research Institute in Washington

5 Louise Voller et al, op. cit.

6 Ibid.

7 Noted in Vaccinations and Autism, accessed here

8 F. William Engdahl, Seeds of Destruction: The Hidden Agenda of Genetic Manipulation, Global Research, Montreal,  2007, pp. 79-84.

9 James A. Miller, Are New Vaccines Laced With Birth-Control Drugs?, HLI Reports, Human Life International, Gaithersburg, Maryland; June-July 1995.

10 Cited in F. William Engdahl, "Doomsday Seed Vault" in the Arctic: Bill Gates, Rockefeller and the GMO giants know something we don’t, Global Research, December 4, 2007, accessed here

11 Mariam Mayet, Africa’s Green Revolution rolls out the Gene Revolution, African Centre for Biosafety, ACB Briefing Paper No. 6/2009, Melville, South Africa, April 2009.

12 Ibid.

13 Nora Benachour and Gilles-Eric Seralini, Glyphosate Formulations Induce Apoptosis and Necrosis in Human Umbilical Embryonic, and Placental Cells, Chemical Research in Toxicology Journal, American Chemical Society, ,  (1), pp 97–105.

14 Robin McKie, GMO Corn Set to Stop Man Spreading His Seed, London, The Observer, 9 September 2001.

15 Ibid. McKie writes, “The pregnancy prevention plants are the handiwork of the San Diego biotechnology company Epicyte, where researchers have discovered a rare class of human antibodies that attack sperm…the company has created tiny horticultural factories that make contraceptives…Essentially, the antibodies are attracted to surface receptors on the sperm,” said Hein.  “They latch on and make each sperm so heavy it cannot move forward.  It  just shakes about as if it was doing the lambada.”

16 Ted Turner, cited along with youTube video of  Turner in Aaron Dykes, Ted Turner: World Needs a 'Voluntary' One-Child Policy for the Next Hundred Years, Jones Report.com, April 29, 2008.
Accessed here

17 John Harlow, Billionaire club in bid to curb overpopulation, London, The Sunday Times May 24, 2009. Accessed here

18 Ibid.

19 United Nations Foundation, Women and Population Program, accessed here

----------


## Acala

> Oxymoronic for a start. Randi is the greatest and he's not full of crap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Either watch the video or calculate what a homeopathic 30C dose means. Remember that Avogadro's number is 6.0221415 E +23
> 
> You should come to your senses.


Did you read what I wrote?  I am not defending homeopathy as practiced.  

My point was that the principle idea behind homeopathy and immunization are the same - introducing a mild form of the disease to induce the body to defeat the disease.  Understand?  Want to address that?  I find it interesting.

As to James Randi, you are correct that my statement was meaningless.  I was trying to show my contempt for Mr. Randi without getting into OT details.  I should have ingored him because he was not germain to my point.

----------


## dancjm

> Sometimes purchases are mandatory. For example car insurance in California. It's mandatory and not too many people complain.
> 
> I presume some people who are rich enough to self insure (like Steve Jobs ... oops, not him, he's dead of Alt Med nonsense) or like Warren Buffet.
> 
> I don't have a problem the car insurance mandate; it is a good thing.
> 
> Vaccination is even more needed and should be mandatory, because it affects others.
> 
> If you don't want to get an asthmatic respirator for your kid, then fine, let him die by asphyxiation. It won't affect my kid. That's why respirators are not mandatory.
> ...



The people who push this crap have no intellectual integrity at all.

I'm no student of medicine, but I am a student of Liberty. These people don't care about Liberty, and they are deceitful in pursuit of some greater good which they imagine that they are serving. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. 

If they have any kind of point, it is lost in their deceit and their disdain for Liberty.

Listen to how they talk about people concerned about vaccines.




The Council on Foreign Relations, if you don't already not know, was set up to manipulate American public perceptions about the world, sorry to, "increase America's understanding of the World."




Ron Paul understands as a medical doctor that, yes vaccines have been used, and can be used with generally positive results. But he also knows that vaccines are dangerous, and that getting vaccinated , or not, is a personal choice, and that you cannot force people to have a vaccination in a free society.




Ron Rules indeed.

----------


## RonRules

> My point was that the principle idea behind homeopathy and immunization are the same - introducing a mild form of the disease to induce the body to defeat the disease.  Understand?  Want to address that?


Sure. 

1) There are ZERO active ingredients in homeopathic remedies. See above calculation

2) Hahnemann's  Law of Similars (like cures like) is not based on science. For example: Poison Ivy causes a bad rash upon contact, so based on the homeopathic principle of “like cures like”, it makes sense that it should cure skin rashes.[1]

Everything about homeopathy is nonsense. Period.

[1] http://corkskeptics.org/2011/05/03/t...sense-fallacy/

----------


## jmdrake

> I thought you sad the FDA was not a good source of information?


Quote where *I* said that.  (Hint:  I didn't say that.  In fact this is only my second post in this thread.)  But the bottom line is that *you* think the FDA is a good source of information and the FDA contradicts one of *your* assertions.  You could do the same think to others who are quoting from NaturalNews.com if you found something on that website that went against one of their claims.

----------


## RonRules

> Bill Gates talks about ‘vaccines to reduce population’


Bill Gates has saved more lives in this recent decade and any government or the UN. 

I just made this up, prove me wrong.

----------


## jmdrake

> Bill Gates has saved more lives in this recent decade and any government or the UN. 
> 
> I just made this up, prove me wrong.


Just like you made up your "fact" about thermirosal being removed from vaccines....and you were proven wrong.

----------


## donnay

> Bill Gates has saved more lives in this recent decade and any government or the UN. 
> 
> I just made this up, prove me wrong.



I already did.

----------


## RonRules

> Just like you made up your "fact" about thermirosal being removed from vaccines....and you were proven wrong.


It has been removed since 2001 as I showed you except for some influenza shots. It is gone from all infant vaccines.

But actually, you anti-vaxers claimed it was the cause of autism and autism rates have NOT changed since 2001. YOU were wrong.

Thermirosal was not a problem at all. It was removed because of pressure groups.

----------


## donnay

> It has been removed since 2001 as I showed you except for some influenza shots. It is gone from all infant vaccines.
> 
> But actually, you anti-vaxers claimed it was the cause of autism and autism rates have NOT changed since 2001. YOU were wrong.
> 
> Thermirosal was not a problem at all. It was removed because of pressure groups.


Do you have a reliable source to prove unequivocally that Thermisoral have been completely removed?  It's not like these sources you provide are credible.

Nevertheless, they say they removed the mercury and now they are replacing it with aluminum.  Aluminum has been connected with Alzheimers.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18392545
http://alzheimers.org.uk/site/script...?documentID=99
http://www.viewzone.com/alzheimers.html


Alzheimer's and vaccination

Vancouver neuroscientist Chris Shaw shows a link between the aluminum hydroxide used in vaccines, and symptoms associated with Parkinson’s, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS, or Lou Gehrig’s disease), and Alzheimer’s.....“This is suspicious,” he told the Georgia Straight in a phone interview from his lab near Heather Street and West 12th Avenue. “Either this [link] is known by industry and it was never made public, or industry was never made to do these studies by Health Canada. I’m not sure which is scarier.”   Similar adjuvants are used in the following vaccines, according to Shaw’s paper: hepatitis A and B, and the Pentacel cocktail, which vaccinates against diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, polio, and a type of meningitis....“No one in my lab wants to get vaccinated,” he said. “This totally creeped us out. We weren’t out there to poke holes in vaccines. But all of a sudden, oh my God—we’ve got neuron death!” ---[Media 3/2006 Aluminium adjuvant] Vaccines show sinister side

"According to Hugh Fudenberg, MD (http://members.aol.com/nitrf), the world's leading immunogeneticist and 13th most quoted biologist of our times (nearly 850 papers in peer review journals), if an individual has had five consecutive flu shots between 1970 and 1980 (the years studied) his/her chances of getting Alzheimer's Disease is ten times higher than if they had one, two or no shots. I asked Dr. Fudenberg why this was so and he said it was due to the mercury and aluminum that is in every flu shot (and most childhood shots).  The gradual mercury and aluminum buildup in the brain causes cognitive dysfunction.  Is that why Alzheimer's is expected to quadruple? Notes: Recorded from Dr. Fudenberg's speech at the NVIC International Vaccine Conference, Arlington, VA September, 1997.  Quoted with permission. Alzheimer's to quadruple statement is from John's Hopkins Newsletter Nov 1998." ----Ted Koren, D. C. http://www.odyssee.net/~expodome/autism.htm#Top Koren Publications (800-537-3001).

----------


## kathy88

All right. You guys have two more days to duke this out, then I am going to declare a winner. Wednesday at 5:00 EST.

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> It has been removed since 2001 as I showed you except for some influenza shots. It is gone from all infant vaccines.
> 
> But actually, you anti-vaxers claimed it was the cause of autism and autism rates have NOT changed since 2001. YOU were wrong.
> 
> Thermirosal was not a problem at all. It was removed because of pressure groups.


FROM THE MOUTHS OF 3 PEDIATRIC NURSES (whom I called just today)......"Yes, there are still the smallest amounts in all our vaccines....we do not have a mercury-free vaccine in this office."

----------


## RonRules

> All right. You guys have two more days to duke this out, then I am going to declare a winner. Wednesday at 5:00 EST.


I just got some fresh vote flipping data. I'll be off this for 24 hours, but I guarantee you, I'll catch up.

----------


## kathy88

> I just got some fresh vote flipping data. I'll be off this for 24 hours, but I guarantee you, I'll catch up.


You may lose by default then. Just warning you.

----------


## RonRules

> FROM THE MOUTHS OF 3 PEDIATRIC NURSES (whom I called just today)......"Yes, there are still the smallest amounts in all our vaccines....we do not have a mercury-free vaccine in this office."


Geese Louise, I keep asking you what IS the "amount?"

Every element of the periodic table is in you mouth right now. Aren't you worried? Why not?

----------


## Eagles' Wings

Just talked with a doc's assist who said, "Good luck finding new born vaccines without any thimerisol".   "We have a couple with trace amounts and the rest are at "normal" limits.

I will give you names and numbers if you'd like.

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> Geese Louise, I keep asking you what IS the "amount?"
> 
> Every element of the periodic table is in you mouth right now. Aren't you worried? Why not?


You continue to claim that it is gone...as of 2001...and that is incorrect.

----------


## Danke

> All right. You guys have two more days to duke this out, then I am going to declare a winner. Wednesday at 5:00 EST.


Yes mother.

----------


## jmdrake

> It has been removed since 2001 as I showed you except for some influenza shots. It is gone from all infant vaccines.
> 
> But actually, you anti-vaxers claimed it was the cause of autism and autism rates have NOT changed since 2001. YOU were wrong.
> 
> Thermirosal was not a problem at all. It was removed because of pressure groups.


Uhh...no you didn't "show" me anything except your own ignorance and arrogance.  You goofed and said thermirosal was removed from vaccines.  That's a blanket statement.  Now you what to add a qualified statement that you have not "shown" to me at all.  I'm not saying your qualified statement isn't true.  I'm saying your delivery is sloppy.  I don't have a dog in this fight.  I'm neither a "vaxer" nor an "anti-vaxer".  I'm just pointing out your sloppiness with the facts.  That's all.  Carry on.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> This.
> 
> But the OP has a point... once herd immunity is compromised we can all find ourselves at risk.


Then we're finished, turn out the lights, sweep up and go home.

Because if I grant your premise, that you have the right to forcibly medicate me or my children against my will, then there is nothing anymore that is "out of bounds".

We're all just a herd, not individuals, to be manipulated, coerced, medicated, slaughtered and used to the benefit of the "greater good".

Not to mention the fact that it is people overusing established medical procedures and not "anti vaxers" that are causing the rise of bacterial "super bugs".

Should I call the cops and have you arrested for running to the doctor and having anti-biotics prescribed every time your child has the sniffles.

You are directly and negatively affecting *my* health now.

Is that what you people want?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Learn about mutations. 
> 
> Viruses mutate at least on a yearly basis, which is why the elderly to take a new flu shot every year.
> 
> Even if vaccinated, viruses mutate and the vaccine is no longer effective.
> 
> If EVERYONE is vaccinated, the virus is gone. That's why.


That statement is so ridiculous, from a micro-biological standpoint, as to be laughable.

No wonder I found your "vote flipping" threads to be on shaky ground.

----------


## angelatc

> Just talked with a doc's assist who said, "Good luck finding new born vaccines without any thimerisol".   "We have a couple with trace amounts and the rest are at "normal" limits.
> 
> I will give you names and numbers if you'd like.


Oh my god - the intentional smug obtusiveness is annoying the crap out of me. 










My SIL is nurse - I called her and asked.  SHe' said the people that call about that are insane and they make notes on their charts to give to CPS.  It's a secret law.  I can give you her number if you'd like.

Who the $#@! calls random people and then claims that's some sort of proof?

----------


## Eagles' Wings

Further investigation in this corner of the world:  A pediatric doctor came on the line and said that their vaccines do not contain mercury.  When I pressed on the issue of trace amounts vs ZERO, she said, "Well, I better check this out".  She did not know for sure.   Is it any wonder?

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> Oh my god - the intentional smug obtusiveness is annoying the crap out of me. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My SIL is nurse - I called her and asked.  SHe' said the people that call about that are insane and they make notes on their charts to give to CPS.  It's a secret law. 
> 
> Who the $#@! calls random people and then claims that's some sort of proof?


Wow, Angela, calm down.  I'm simply relaying information from the pediatric medical community.  ALL were very nice and said that many people call about this before making appointments for their babies.  The doctor I talked to was very concerned that she did not know FOR SURE, what the merc levels were.

----------


## angelatc

[QUOTE=donnay;4547927]


> Angela,
> 
> You need to go back and re-read this thread after you have had some sleep.
> 
> I agree with Weston, God did gift us in so many ways when he created us.  It's up to us, to learn to listen to our bodies.  Our bodies cannot help us, unless we help it with good nutrition--vitamins, minerals and amino acids.  Our immune system is in our small intestine, if our gut is sick, so are we.  It has been proven that vaccines, and the cocktail of ingredients within the vaccine, affect the intestines--we have diseases such as Crohns, IBS, and ulcerated colitis, Celiac disease, autoimmune disease, hepatitis, arthritis and a whole list of other chronic illnesses that stem from vaccines.  Not to mention, the epidemic of Autism in children.  Consequently, along with all the diseases mentioned above, each one requires a specialists to help treat the persons disease--not cure, but treat.  Chronic illness along with Cancer is a booming business!  Lots of times you have to follow the money, see the motives and know the agendas.
> 
> But you won't find the answers without researching them yourself.



There's not enough sleep in the world to make me ignore science and replace it with nonsense - sorry.

----------


## angelatc

> Wow, Angela, calm down.  I'm simply relaying information from the pediatric medical community.  ALL were very nice and said that many people call about this before making appointments for their babies.  The doctor I talked to was very concerned that she did not know FOR SURE, what the merc levels were.


Your doctor is talking down to you, because she already knows exactly what you are, and how desperately your kids need her help.  Doctors are very good at that.

----------


## angelatc

> Further investigation in this corner of the world:  A pediatric doctor came on the line and said that their vaccines do not contain mercury.  When I pressed on the issue of trace amounts vs ZERO, she said, "Well, I better check this out".  She did not know for sure.   Is it any wonder?


It's a wonder that she even bothered to pick up the phone.  If she told you what you didn't want to hear, you'd insist she was part of The Conspiracy.

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> Your doctor is talking down to you, because she already knows exactly what you are, and how desperately your kids need her help.  Doctors are very good at that.


She already knows what I am, eh?  You have crossed the line of decency.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Sure. 
> 
> 1) There are ZERO active ingredients in homeopathic remedies. See above calculation
> 
> 2) Hahnemann's  Law of Similars (like cures like) is not based on science. For example: Poison Ivy causes a bad rash upon contact, so based on the homeopathic principle of “like cures like”, it makes sense that it should cure skin rashes.[1]
> 
> *Everything about homeopathy is nonsense. Period.*
> 
> [1] http://corkskeptics.org/2011/05/03/t...sense-fallacy/


Nope.  Sorry.  You are wrong.  I can't speak for all of them, but I do know that at least one works.

I take Allergena's Mold Mix.  It's the only thing I have found that really helps me during mold season here in Austin.  I have tried shots, pills, you name it.  Mold Mix works the best by far.  At least for me and a couple of other people whom I have told about it.

----------


## Weston White

Coincidentally, as to the subject of homeopathy, nature in most cases provides the instant cure to most ailments incurred right within that geographical region.  Les Stroud has more than shown this to be true within his Survivorman show, as just one example of convenience.

----------


## LibertyEagle

I guess I don't understand why there are such absolutists on either side of this issue.   There are quack medical providers on both sides.  Traditional American medicine certainly doesn't have the answer to everything; in many cases they are just treating symptoms.  In others, they simply have no clue and relegate it to "female troubles".  Alternative medicine certainly has their share of whack jobs.  But, to imply that something like chinese medicine is somehow complete quackery seems pretty silly.  A whole lot of the drugs we have were derived from the same herbs that American Indians and the Chinese have been using as medicine for ages.  

I like having all of it available to us and let the buyer decide what works for them.

Note:  Donnay, are you against something as basic as a tetanus shot?

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Coincidentally, as to the subject of homeopathy, nature in most cases provides the instant cure to most ailments incurred right within that geographical region.  Les Stroud has more than shown this to be true within his Survivorman show, as just one example of convenience.


Yup and that is exactly how most of the homeopathics that Allergena puts out are formulated.  You buy most of them, by region.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Nope.  Sorry.  You are wrong.  I can't speak for all of them, but I do know that at least one works.
> 
> I take Allergena's Mold Mix.  It's the only thing I have found that really helps me during mold season here in Austin.  I have tried shots, pills, you name it.  Mold Mix works the best by far.  At least for me and a couple of other people whom I have told about it.


I'm frankly amazed at the smug hatred and dark tinged authoritarianism I've seen displayed in this thread, as if making medical decisions about my life and health somehow are subject to review by some complete stranger.

I personally, have had no luck with homeopathic remedies, but, obviously, you have, good for you and keep on using whatever works for you.

----------


## RonRules

> Nope.  Sorry.  You are wrong.  I can't speak for all of them, but I do know that at least one works.
> 
> I take Allergena's Mold Mix.  It's the only thing I have found that really helps me during mold season here in Austin.  I have tried shots, pills, you name it.  Mold Mix works the best by far.  At least for me and a couple of other people whom I have told about it.


Then it's NOT homeopathic. If it's homeopathic it CAN'T work.

Also your personal anecdotal evidence is never an adequate criteria. That why we do double blind studies with placebos.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> I guess I don't understand why there are such absolutists on either side of this issue.   There are quack medical providers on both sides.  Traditional American medicine certainly doesn't have the answer to everything; in many cases they are just treating symptoms.  In others, they simply have no clue and relegate it to "female troubles".  Alternative medicine certainly has their share of whack jobs.  But, to imply that something like chinese medicine is somehow complete quackery seems pretty silly.  A whole lot of the drugs we have were derived from the same herbs that American Indians and the Chinese have been using as medicine for ages.  
> 
> I like having all of it available to us and let the buyer decide what works for them.
> 
> Note:  Donnay, are you against tetanus shots too?


+rep

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> I'm frankly amazed at the smug hatred and dark tinged authoritarianism I've seen displayed in this thread, as if making medical decisions about my life and health somehow are subject to review by some complete stranger.
> 
> I personally, have had no luck with homeopathic remedies, but, obviously, you have, good for you and keep on using whatever works for you.


No kidding, AF.  Makes me pray harder for those with little ones who have to face this.  Keep trying homeopathy...you never know.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Then it's NOT homeopathic. If it's homeopathic it CAN'T work.


It says it is a homeopathic.  Click on the link I gave you.




> Also your personal anecdotal evidence is never an adequate criteria. That why we do double blind studies with placebos.


Actually, it is the best.  For me, at least.  I have tried just about everything out there for my allergies.  The homeopathic works for me and the others do not.  It's also worked for everyone I have told about it, with one exception.

Allergies are a huge deal here in Austin.  It's known as the allergy capital of the world.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Then it's NOT homeopathic. If it's homeopathic it CAN'T work.
> 
> Also your personal anecdotal evidence is never an adequate criteria. That why we do double blind studies with placebos.


Keep in mind that double blind studies with placebos aren't perfect either.  That's why the first study of a phenomenon (like a drug) is almost never accepted as the final proof.  Pharma drugs are subject to 2 or 3 clinical trials before they can be FDA approved, IIRC.

----------


## RonRules

*Belgium Skeptics Commit Mass Suicide*

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/belgiu..._mass_suicide/


Randi often starts is show by committing homeopathic suicide!

*James Randi attempts "homeopathic suicide"*



Now everybody is doing it:
*Committing homeopathic suicide*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bg1mSo7JQM

----------


## jmdrake

> Then it's NOT homeopathic. If it's homeopathic it CAN'T work.
> 
> Also your personal anecdotal evidence is never an adequate criteria. That why we do double blind studies with placebos.


Right.  Because the definition of homeopathy is medicine that doesn't work.    Look, love the Amazing Randi.  I've been to one of his shows/lectures.  But you've got to take him with a grain of salt.  In the show I went to he attacked chiropractors as well as homeopathy.  I went up after the show and asked him about that, telling him that my brother had been helped by going to a chiropractor.  He said "Oh sure.  They're good for back problems.  But they make all kinds of other claims that aren't true."  Ummm.....okay.  But *everyone* I've ever known to go to a chiropractor went for back or other joint problems.  And A.R. should have spelled out in the show that there were some positive aspects of chiropractors along with the (alleged) quackery.  The same may be true for homeopathy.  If you clicked on LE's link you'd see that it's indeed (as per its description) homeopathy.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> It says it is a homeopathic.  Click on the link I gave you.
> 
> 
> Actually, it is the best.  For me, at least.  I have tried just about everything out there for my allergies.  The homeopathic works for me and the others do not.  It's also worked for everyone I have told about it, with one exception.
> 
> Allergies are a huge deal here in Austin.  It's known as the allergy capital of the world.


Excellent post.  This illustrates well that the logic behind "allopathic" medicine (as it is usually called) is inductive and its conclusions literally can't apply to everyone.

----------


## RonRules

> It says it is a homeopathic.  Click on the link I gave you.


I did and it says it includes Eccanesia.

But that's useless too! Really.

It's all in your mind. Allergies come and go and you're just paying attention to the positive outcomes.

The greatest advance in medical science is due to the success of proper experimental design.  You simply can't trust yourself as to what works or not.

----------


## angelatc

> Excellent post.  This illustrates well that the logic behind "allopathic" medicine (as it is usually called) is inductive and its conclusions literally can't apply to everyone.


I don't think that any branch of medicine can claim that everyone will reach the same conclusions with identical treatments.  That's part of the art of medicine.

----------


## LibertyEagle

Sorry, I think your doctor is a whack job, Ron Rules.

----------


## RickyJ

> She already knows what I am, eh?  You have crossed the line of decency.


Yeah, she sure has. Know it alls, even within the "medical community" who think a doctor's or nurse's word is golden, are the ones that you need to watch out for. Doctors very lively hoods for the most part depends on helping the pharmaceutical companies sell their drugs. They are not exactly unbiased in the matter. If they stop prescribing vaccines or drugs, the pharmaceutical companies would not stop harassing them until they were drove out of the business.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> I did and it says it includes Eccanesia.


Do you mean Echinacea?

This is what it includes:
"Active Ingredients: Echinacea 3X HPUS; Drainage Remedies: Baptisia Tinctoria 3X HPUS, Hydrastis Canadensis 3X HPUS, Myrrha 3X HPUS, Nasturtium Aquaticum 3X HPUS, Phytolacca Decandra 3X HPUS, Trigonella Foenum-Graecum 3X; Mold Mix Antigen 6X, 12X, 30X: Acremonium, Alternaria Tenuis, Aspergillus Mixture, Aureobasidium, Botrytis Cinerea, Chaetomium Globosum, Cladosporium Cladosporioides, Curvularia, Drechslera, Epicoccum Nigrum, Fusarium, Mucor, Neurospora, Nigrospora, Penicillium Mixture, Phoma Herbarum, Rhizopus, Rhodotorula Rubra, Stemphylium, Torula Cerevisiae, Trichoderma Lignorum, Trichophyton Mentagrophytes. "




> But that's useless too! Really.
> 
> It's all in your mind. Allergies come and go and you're just paying attention to the positive outcomes.
> 
> The greatest advance in medical science is due to the success of proper experimental design.  You simply can't trust yourself as to what works or not.


You're full of yourself.  No, it's not all in my mind.  It's all in my sinus cavities.  Until I use Mold Mix.  But, I haven't gotten any lately and am limping along with Claritin-D.  It doesn't hold a candle to Mold Mix.

You really have no idea what you are talking about.

----------


## RickyJ

> Sorry, I think your doctor is a whack job, Ron Rules.


Yep, he sure is no Ron Paul.

----------


## RonRules

> You're full of yourself.  No, it's not all in my mind.


I still love your avatar.

----------


## RonRules

> Sorry, I think your doctor is a whack job, Ron Rules.


I don't have a doctor. I don't get sick.

Oh, yes I do get vaccinated once a year.

----------


## libertyjam

> Comment from Harriet A. Hall, MD, a retired family physician and former Air Force flight surgeon:
> 
> "The precise science based message is this: *autism is no more correlated with vaccines than with pirates*, vaccines have been ruled out as a possible cause of autism, and while there are VERY small risks with vaccines, the risks of not vaccinating are far greater."


"My first lesson in vaccine propaganda is when I learned, back in the forties, that the "epidemics" of meningitis amongst military recruits were not epidemics but clusters, and the second thing I learned was that only the freshly vaccinated recruits "caught" meningitis. The mess sergeant didn't, the drill sergeant didn't, only the recruits did. Not even the girls who worked at the base exchanges and service clubs, with whom recruits played kissy face "caught" meningitis  only the fresh vaccinated recruits "caught" it..."
Dr. Daniel H. Duffy Sr. Geneva, Ohio

----------


## angelatc

> She already knows what I am, eh?  You have crossed the line of decency.


Years ago.  But I'm not wrong.  She knows that your kids are going to likely be exposed to diseases that they could easily be protected from.  She's their doctor, not yours.

----------


## libertyjam

> Thanks for the neg rep, by the way.    Loser.


Well that earned another one...

----------


## jmdrake

> I did and it says it includes Eccanesia.


So?  Where in the definition of homeopathy does it say you can't have ingredients other than those that induce the symptoms?  The formula also includes trace elements of mold such as  Acremonium, Alternaria Tenuis, and Aspergillus.




> But that's useless too! Really.


Says you.




> It's all in your mind. Allergies come and go and you're just paying attention to the positive outcomes.


Says you.




> The greatest advance in medical science is due to the success of proper experimental design.  You simply can't trust yourself as to what works or not.


Says you.  Proper experimental design often begins with anecdotal evidence.

----------


## angelatc

> Yeah, she sure has. Know it alls, even within the "medical community" who think a doctor's or nurse's word is golden, are the ones that you need to watch out for. Doctors very lively hoods for the most part depends on helping the pharmaceutical companies sell their drugs. They are not exactly unbiased in the matter. If they stop prescribing vaccines or drugs, the pharmaceutical companies would not stop harassing them until they were drove out of the business.


Uh, I'm not the one making fake phone calls to phantom doctors in a pathetic attempt to get them to agree with a theory that has absolutely zero basis in reality.

I'm the one quoting 100 years of science with proven results.

----------


## RickyJ

> Just talked with a doc's assist who said, "Good luck finding new born vaccines without any thimerisol".   "We have a couple with trace amounts and the rest are at "normal" limits.
> 
> I will give you names and numbers if you'd like.


Wow!

That is not good news at all! 

This stuff is very dangerous to kids that don't properly flush it from their system and it builds up in their brains. This is some scary stuff and is deliberate, no doubt about it.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> I don't have a doctor. I don't get sick.


The one whose video you keep incessantly posting.




> Oh, yes I do get vaccinated once a year.


What, for the flu? 

I am not anti-injection as a whole, but I won't get flu shots.  The only time I ever got the flu was when I got the stupid flu shot.  I got sicker than a dog.  So, no more for me.

----------


## angelatc

> Well that earned another one...


Does that make you feel like a real man?  The alpha male?

----------


## angelatc

> Wow!
> 
> That is not good news at all! 
> 
> This stuff is very dangerous to kids that don't properly flush it from their system and it builds up in their brains. This is some scary stuff and is deliberate, no doubt about it.


Where's the proof?

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> Uh, I'm not the one making fake phone calls to phantom doctors in a pathetic attempt to get them to agree with a theory that has absolutely zero basis in reality.
> 
> I'm the one quoting 100 years of science with proven results.


Hey, I said exactly why I was calling and unless these half dozen or so people are excellent actors, the response was genuine and said with concern.  No theories were discussed.  Nothing fake or phantom - its called "grass roots" investigating with my little ole' telephone.

----------


## RonRules

> Well that earned another one...


How many are you up to?

Now THAT should be the contest!

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Where's the proof?


I found this, Angela.




> 28. Eggleston DW, Nylander M.; Correlation of dental amalgam with mercury in the brain. J Prost Dent 1987;58:704-707
> 
> 29. Retrograde Axonal Transport of Mercury; Bjoern Arvidson Experimental Neurology 1987;98, 198-203
> 
> 30 Inorganic Mercury is Transported from Muscular Nerve Terminals to Spinal and Brainstem Motorneurons: Bjoern Arvidson Muscle and Nerve 1992;15:1089-1094


http://www.mercola.com/article/mercu...imination2.htm

Here's an article (Neuroendocrinology Letters) about mercury and Alzheimers.  Scroll down to read the article.
http://www.klinghardtacademy.com/Heavy-Metals/

----------


## RonRules

> Do you mean Echinacea?


I'm re-posting this video because it's relevant.

This guy will tell you about Echinacea at 11:09

And at 3:59, he will tell you: "YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO YOUR OWN FACTS" and he's right.




You guys really need to spend the 19 minutes it takes to watch this video.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> I'm re-posting this video because it's relevant.
> 
> This guy will tell you about Echinacea at 11:09
> 
> And at 3:59, he will tell you: "YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO YOUR OWN FACTS" and he's right.
> 
> You guys really need to spend the 19 minutes it takes to watch this video.


Who in hell is Michael Specter?  Even if he is right about Echinacea, and I am not saying he is, it is only one of many ingredients in Mold Mix, dude.   You want so badly to be right, but you simply are not.

Again, sinuses clogged and horrible sinus headaches before Mold Mix.  Gone, after I use it.

Sounds like a winner to me.

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> Wow!
> 
> That is not good news at all! 
> 
> This stuff is very dangerous to kids that don't properly flush it from their system and it builds up in their brains. This is some scary stuff and is deliberate, no doubt about it.


There is a new book coming out by Cilla Whatcott.  She is on the internet.  She has what amounts to a doctorate in homeopathy and has had great results with newborns and infants in cleansing the system from vax.

----------


## RonRules

> Who in hell is Michael Specter?


Ever head of "Denialism?"

----------


## donnay

> I guess I don't understand why there are such absolutists on either side of this issue.   There are quack medical providers on both sides.  Traditional American medicine certainly doesn't have the answer to everything; in many cases they are just treating symptoms.  In others, they simply have no clue and relegate it to "female troubles".  Alternative medicine certainly has their share of whack jobs.  But, to imply that something like chinese medicine is somehow complete quackery seems pretty silly.  A whole lot of the drugs we have were derived from the same herbs that American Indians and the Chinese have been using as medicine for ages.  
> 
> I like having all of it available to us and let the buyer decide what works for them.
> 
> Note:  *Donnay, are you against something as basic as a tetanus shot?*



I am against all vaccines, large or small.

*
Tetanus  The Disease and the Vaccine*
http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20100317.htm

*Tetanus vaccine adverse reactions*
http://www.whale.to/a/tetanus1.html

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Randi often starts is show by committing homeopathic suicide!


Ah, I see, a James Randi fan.

That explains a lot.

Carry on.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Ever head of "Denialism?"


Yes.  It appears to be a condition from which you are suffering.

----------


## RonRules

> She is on the internet.  She has a doctorate in homeopathy.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> I am against all vaccines, large or small.
> 
> *
> Tetanus – The Disease and the Vaccine*
> http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20100317.htm
> 
> *Tetanus vaccine adverse reactions*
> http://www.whale.to/a/tetanus1.html


To each their own, but for me, that is going too far.  I'm not messing with getting tetanus.

----------


## libertyjam

> It has been removed since 2001 as I showed you except for some influenza shots. It is gone from all infant vaccines.
> 
> But actually, you anti-vaxers claimed it was the cause of autism and autism rates have NOT changed since 2001. YOU were wrong.
> 
> Thermirosal was not a problem at all. It was removed because of pressure groups.


Was Dr. Andrew Wakefield Right After All? 




Was Dr. Andrew Wakefield Right After All?
By Catherine J. Frompovich | January 13th, 2012 

Dr. Andrew Wakefield

Maybe those who were quick to professionally eviscerate Dr. Wakefield ought to listen up to what’s breaking in cutting-edge scientific research regarding autism and intestinal/gut problems associated with children on the autism spectrum.

January 10, 2012, the American Society for Microbiology published what I consider a stunning report, “Application of Novel PCR-Based Methods for Detection, Quantitation, and Phylogenetic Characterization of Sutterella Species in Intestinal Biopsy Samples from Children with Autism and Gastrointestinal Disturbances” authored by researchers at the Center for Infection and Immunity, Mailman School of Public Health, Columbia University, New York City—not in some foreign country. [1]

The researchers reported on using “the first Sutterella-specific PCR assays for detecting, quantitating, and genotyping Sutterella species in biological and environmental samples.” [1] This is significant information, I think, because the U.S. FDA, from what I understand, wants to prevent the PCR Test [polymerase chain reaction developed in 1983 by Kary Mullis], which can obtain results overnight and can be effective in vaccine issues—e.g., identifying viruses, possible adverse events or even prevention—from being made available to physicians, laboratories, and consumers. To understand more how PCR works, I suggest reading this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymerase_chain_reaction.

Perhaps—I say perhaps—the problem with the FDA may stem from the ‘politics’ of science over patents and not that the test is accurate, useful, and can be helpful to healthcare consumers desperately looking for answers. Interestingly though, PCR can detect RNA viruses like measles and mumps, so what does that infer about implication for the MMR vaccine? Does the plot thicken?

Since the autism spectrum disorder now affects 1 percent of the USA population [over 3 million] and growing daily, it seems, one would hope that some connection of the dots will be made soon to stop this terrible affliction of two generations now—something our children did not experience in such ‘galloping numbers’ years ago, which the medical literature confirms.

Autism literally is a gut-wrenching health problem, which has been occurring since the push to vaccinate children with numerous vaccines began in the 1980s. Coincidentally, the ASD issue and multiple vaccinations seem to have become a parallel health issue or peculiarity.

In reading through the mBio’s online PDF file of the Mailman School of Public Health study, this sort of ‘jumped’ out at me:

“Sutterella species have been isolated from human and animal feces (30–32) and have also been isolated from human infections below the diaphragm; most often from patients with appendicitis, peritonitis, or rectal or perirectal abscesses (22, 23). Sutterella sequences have been identified in fecal samples and intestinal biopsy samples from individuals with Crohn’s disease and ulcerative colitis but also from apparently healthy adults (24, 25, 27, 33). Thus, based on these previous findings, it remains unclear whether Sutterella species contribute to inflammation and infection or are simply normal inhabitants of the human microbiota in some individuals.”

It seems Sutterella is associated with infections and/or inflammatory processes (Crohn’s disease and ulcerative colitis), which leads me to ask this question:

What role do vaccines with their numerous antigen-reaction-producing chemicals play in the inflammatory process within the human body, especially in an infant’s or toddler’s body, whose immune system is not fully established until around 2 years of age or a little older, depending upon each child’s personal body chemistry?

Dr. Harold E. Buttram, MD, and I co-authored several papers about the inflammatory process within the brain that probably occurs from vaccines. You can read them at International Medical Council for Vaccinations. One, in particular, that may help you understand what transpires, “Vaccines and Brain Inflammation,” can be read here http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/20...-inflammation/.

So, in light of what I’ve said in the above paragraphs, I cannot help myself from asking this, which medical researchers ought to investigate, I think:

    What role does Leaky Gut Syndrome [damaged bowel lining] play with regard to facilitating the inflammation process to occur?

    Does leaky gut syndrome present the classic example of which came first, the chicken or the egg? Is Sutterella induced, or does it induce bowel inflammations?

    Are some children born with a mitochondrial proclivity for Sutterella? The Hannah Poling case brought mitochondrial proclivities to the forefront. Incidentally, mitochondrial proclivities may not show up until as late as 14 years of age.

    Does each vaccine’s toxic chemicals damage the intestinal lining thereby producing leaky gut leading to Sutterella colonies in ASD children, which non-ASD children do not have, as the Mailman School of Public Health study reported?

Perhaps we ought to consider this:

    Before any child is vaccinated, a PCR Test should be given before and then later to investigate and confirm the ‘leads’ being offered in the bacteria gut story reported in the Mailman study; Dr. Wakefield’s findings as long ago as 1998; and my suggestions in this article.

    We know what the researchers Williams, Hornig, Parekh, et al, at Mailman Public School of Health came up with. Dr. Wakefield reported finding a measles strain in children’s gut that was the same as in the MMR vaccine, if I remember correctly. So, the next logical step, I think, is to start tracking what’s going on with gut problems in children on the autism spectrum.

Here’s my further suggestion, which I think is scientifically sensible:

    Any child whose PCR Test results indicate any abnormal intestinal flora strain/growth should NOT be vaccinated, as they just may be the ‘hidden’ candidates for ASD.

    However, if those children are then vaccinated ignoring PCR’s results, subsequent PCR Tests should be administered before any next scheduled round of vaccines [2, 4, 6 months to age 14] to make certain that no Sutterella has taken over the gut, which possibly could precipitate ASD, based upon the Mailman findings and Dr. Wakefield’s work, which—if taken seriously—may have eliminated the current ASD problems.
___


Based on these revelations, the claims of health authorities that there is no proof of a relationship between vaccines and autism has been technically correct, but this is only because the tests which could prove such a relationship have been systematically and knowingly avoided by the NIH and other government health agencies over a period of many years, which is confirmed by the above declaration by the National Autism Association.

However, since the U.S. Congressional Hearings on Vaccine Safety, 1999-December, 2004, which found gross deficiencies in vaccine safety testing, steadily increasing numbers of highly reputable studies have been appearing in the medical literature indicating that significant harm may be taking place from current childhood vaccine programs. The Pourcyrous study cited above [1] is offered as a prime example.
http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/20...-inflammation/
___

New 2011 Autism Studies links to MMR Vaccines
Posted on February 7, 2011 by politicol	

Feb. 7, 2011   New 2011 Autism Studies links to MMR Vaccines

The Recent Journalist Reports from the BMJ were False

Recently the British Medical Journal on the reports from an ordinary hired journalist  Brian Deer claimed that Dr. Andrew Wakefield’s studies were faked and he altered the data on his study which links the MMR vaccine to children’s bowel disease.

Dr. Wakefield treatment throughout his ordeal has been deplorable, concocted and falsely he has been accused of wrongdoing and stripped of his medical practice license.

This of course is due to the BMJ’s ties to pharmaceutical influences throughout the time he discovered the link and a month ago with the so called “investigative” reports from Brian Deer who has an agenda which is protect the interests of vaccine makers.

New American MMR Vaccine and Bowel Disease Studies Prove Wakefield was Right

New American Studies today in February 2011 conducted by a team of doctors at Wake Forest University School in the state of North Carolina studied and tested over 275 children a much larger study than Dr. Wakefield.

The discovery of the Forest University backs up Dr. Wakefield’s reports of a bowel disease where out of  82 of the children 70 of them tested positive for the measles virus.

A spokesman Dr. Stephen Walker states that from the results all of the research points to a vaccine strain of the virus (that which is injected into children) not another typical strain of measles found naturally from child to child type introductions.

The research these doctors undertook, proves that in the intestines of children or the gastro-intestinal tracts of those who have been diagnosed with autism the children were found to have the measles viruses from the vaccine they were given in their gut.

Dr. Andrew Wakefield is Vindicated with New Studies

This is proof positive that Dr. Andrew Wakefield’s study is correct and he obviously did not fake or manipulate any data that was claimed by the reporter for the British Medical Journal.  The North American media has accepted the reports from the journalist rather than find the truth about the verified link between autism and the MMR Vaccine.

13 Years of Proof of Vaccine Damage from the MMR Vaccine to Children

In 1998 which is 13 years ago Dr. Wakefield and other doctors at the Royal Free Hospital along with 12 doctors in that hospital found the same findings as the American doctors at Forest University.

Doctors Pressured to Lie about Dr. Wakefield’s Study at the Royal Free Hospital

Later these doctors under pressures from the medical community and most likely the pressures and threats by pharmaceuticals to lose their license as did Dr. Wakefield all retracted their reports and denied the findings.

Dr. Wakefield never went so far to say there was a link he merely suggested there could be a reason for concern and that the British government should make the triple dose optional and have single doses for Mumps, one for Measles and one for Rubella. But the British government also with ties to campaign money from drug makers refused to look at even the request of such an idea.

The drug companies went after Dr. Wakefield with every thing they had -took away his license, denounced his reports, condemned his reports through various medical journals and sources.  They knew he was right and they stopped him cold for the profits they are making still today on the MMR vaccine.

In retrospect, instead of investigating Dr. Wakefield’s study they pounced on it immediately which is highly suspicious and out of line.  The medical community denounced him as a fake with no evidence to the contrary and this group never followed up and conducted their own studies again this is highly unacceptable.

The MMR Vaccine is Proven to Damage Children with Autism and Bowel Disease

The MMR Vaccine contains a multitude of toxic material.

Here are just some of the ingredients:

The premise that the benefits of vaccines far outweigh the risks is a false leader in an heavily funded advertising campaign that drug companies have spent millions of dollars in order to protect their profits.

The MMR vaccine contains mercury which is highly toxic to humans.

Merck is the manufacturer that produces the MMR vaccine. The warnings on the inserts of the MMR vaccine clearly indicated that persons with “a history of anaphylactic, anaphylactoid or other immune reactions or allergy to eggs is written on the label.

The problem is a baby is too young for parents or doctors to know the reactions until after they receive the vaccine therefore it is like playing Russian roulette with an infant.

The MMR vaccine is given to babies only 6 months old who’s immune systems have not fully developed and certainly not enough to take a triple dose of a heavy duty vaccine for 3 illnesses.

We term them illnesses because every kid who became an adult got the measles or mumps which builds up their immune systems naturally. In the 1950′s parents held measles parties so their kids could get the measles naturally and the body develops its own natural antibodies which are more preferred than a synthetic method of vaccinations.

Other Studies that Prove Dr. Wakefield’s Study is Valid and Correct

Another study conducted 11 years ago by another doctor John O”Leary at the St. James Hospital and Trinity College in Dublin has duplicated the same findings as Dr. Wakefield and the new Wake Forest Study that has just been published.

Vaccinating Pregnant Mothers is Deadly Wrong for the Fetus

The vaccinating of a young woman with the MMR vaccine  is recommended 3 months prior to the time she becomes pregnant under the fear that she may carry a child with the diseases is preposterously wrong.  The young woman will have stored mercury in her organs, tissues and blood and therefore any child she would carry within 3 months of any vaccine will be affected by the ingredients she was injected with before she became pregnant.  The chemicals will still be passed on to the fetus and therefore damage to an unborn baby will be clearly a very high risk.

The Evidence is Clear- The MMR Vaccine must be stopped immediately and the American government, the UK government and all countries must stop using the  MMR vaccine.

The triple dose vaccine must be banned and stopped to prevent more children from acquiring Autism and intestinal bowel diseases.

It is also evident that vaccines are not studied thoroughly enough to prove their efficacy, to prove they are safe and to prove they are of any benefit.   No matter how many journalists the drug companies hire, and no matter how many journals they financially support there is a substantial link of autism and now a bowel disease attributed to the MMR Vaccine.

The media has been used to discount and disprove Dr. Wakefield’s studies however the more they attempt to do so they dig themselves deeper into a pit of a cover up.  The pit that destroys people’s children and makes them disabled is a disgusting way that pharmaceutical company CEO’s make a living and the journalists that support this system of defective drugs and vaccines.

We counted how many US media networks trashed Dr. Andrew Wakefield’s response to the recent attempt to discredit him by the BMJ and were appauled at how badly they wanted to crucify this doctor.

Today in 2011 more children are being born with diseases, disabilities, autism, cancer, diabetic, bowel diseases and many many illnesses that were not common ten or 20 years ago.  Today kids are being born with diseases that are incurable and unexplainable by doctors.

The reason is a very high increase in the number of untested vaccines given to people who are passing on these chemicals to their babies.  Therefore the whole pharma machine of profits comes secondary to the health of the public which the US government has failed for decades to protect.  It all has to stop now.

CNN’s Anderson Cooper led the charge with the first interview which was an attack interview, then we heard from the other discrediting and another attack interview from George Stephanopolous on ABC’s Good Morning America which was absolutely disgraceful.  We gave the NBC Today Show a complete miss expecting the same type of interview which not only was biased but a phony attempt at

It all failed to convince the public and other media networks and it was essentially a community effort to use the media to attack Dr. Wakefield for no purpose than to sell more defective and dangerous vaccines to innocent children.

That is why the main stream media has lost its moral compass and why the journalist industry of news has become a corrupt sell out to corporate interests.

You have only to look at the Amish, or Societies that due to religion do not vaccinate their children. By far, and in proven statistics these children do not die in great numbers in fact they do not die from the reported miscalculated figures given by the CDC and the National Institute of Heath. The facts are simply not supported by reality.

The majority of children are born healthy and with a good start in life but are badly damaged the minute someone starts injecting them with carcinogens.

If by chance there is not enough information here to make an informed decision about how many vaccines and which vaccines you give to your children or future children – then seek more information below in our article archives.

We have done extensive study and research to bring you the real information about the dangers of vaccines today and you must act as your own doctor in a system that is far too corrupted to be believable.

Go to Dr. Wakefield’s Website for further information, its called:

Callous Disregard

Read more: http://www.politicolnews.com/new-201...#ixzz21U5j7LgA

----------


## Eagles' Wings

New Book:  The Solution: Homeoprophylaxis, The Vaccine Alternative.

Can be found at:  www.familyhomeopathycare.com

----------


## Anti Federalist

> To each their own, but for me, that is going too far.  I'm not messing with getting tetanus.


I remember reading somewhere that Maasi tribesmen in Africa would knock a tooth out so they could take nourishment through a straw while battling tetanus.

You can recover I suppose.

Pretty hard core though.

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> New Book:  The Solution: Homeoprophylaxis, The Vaccine Alternative.
> 
> Can be found at:  www.familyhomeopathycare.com


I've worked with Cilla for a couple of years and am free of pain in a couple of areas that were troubling.  And this is not  anecdotal -

----------


## Anti Federalist

For the record, WRT to the vaccine/autism link, I am not convinced that mercury containing preservatives are to blame here.

I am fairly convinced it is the vaccines *themselves*, given at earlier and earlier ages, to the point of birth now, and in increasing amounts and combinations, trigger an autoimmune response that literally fries the developing brain.

I suspect this may be causal factor in the increased rates of deadly allergies as well.

----------


## jmdrake

> I'm re-posting this video because it's relevant.
> 
> This guy will tell you about Echinacea at 11:09
> 
> And at 3:59, he will tell you: "YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO YOUR OWN FACTS" and he's right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You guys really need to spend the 19 minutes it takes to watch this video.


Are you serious?  Okay, I took some time and watched your stupid video at 11 minutes in.  All he said was "Echinacea is a fraud" and then goes on to start singing the praises of GMO's (very poorly I might add), and that's supposed to be your evidence?  Evidence of what?

----------


## RonRules

> Was Dr. Andrew Wakefield Right After All?


There's a reason he can no longer call himself a "Doctor". Look it up. 

His paper supposedly proving that vaccines caused autism was proven to be a fraud and his "research" was set up so he could profit from the fraud.

----------


## Sam I am

> For the record, WRT to the vaccine/autism link, I am not convinced that mercury containing preservatives are to blame here.
> 
> I am fairly convinced it is the vaccines *themselves*, given at earlier and earlier ages, to the point of birth now, and in increasing amounts and combinations, trigger an autoimmune response that literally fries the developing brain.
> 
> I suspect this may be causal factor in the increased rates of deadly allergies as well.


That's some bullet-proof speculation science there

----------


## donnay

> Oh my god - the intentional smug obtusiveness is annoying the crap out of me. 
> My SIL is nurse - I called her and asked.  SHe' said the people that call about that are insane and they make notes on their charts to give to CPS.  It's a secret law.  I can give you her number if you'd like.
> 
> Who the $#@! calls random people and then claims that's some sort of proof?


*FDA admits mercury is still used in vaccines*
http://digitaljournal.com/article/322254

*Mercury Still Used in Flu and Other Vaccines*
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/...21/93039.shtml
*
FDA admits in court case that vaccines still contain mercury*
http://thewatchers.adorraeli.com/201...ntain-mercury/

*The great thimerosal cover-up: Mercury, vaccines, autism and your child's health* 
http://www.naturalnews.com/011764.html
*
Mercury and Aluminum in Vaccines: a Primer on NVICs Vaccine Ingredients Calculator*
http://vaxtruth.org/2012/01/aluminum...er-on-the-vic/
*
Mercury Still In Vaccines - Channel 7 News*

----------


## RonRules

> start singing the praises of GMO's


I'm holding a GMO only barbecue for Labor Day.  You're invited.

----------


## jmdrake

> I'm holding a GMO only barbecue for Labor Day.  You're invited.


A free marketeer celebrating labor day?

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> 


You are a quackwatcher.  I've heard your kind for many many years.

----------


## libertyjam

> That statement is so ridiculous, from a micro-biological standpoint, as to be laughable.
> 
> No wonder I found your "vote flipping" threads to be on shaky ground.


I bet he thinks that Bubonic Plague has been eradicated as well.

----------


## angelatc

> *FDA admits mercury is still used in vaccines*
> http://digitaljournal.com/article/322254
> 
> *Mercury Still Used in Flu and Other Vaccines*
> http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/...21/93039.shtml
> *
> FDA admits in court case that vaccines still contain mercury*
> http://thewatchers.adorraeli.com/201...ntain-mercury/
> 
> ...


Which vaccines? Oh, the flu vaccines, which we already know still have thermisol in them.  And we know that partly because I posted the chart above.   

Show me peer reviewed scientific journals, and we can discuss.   But filling my screen with biased, opinionated pseudoscience claptrap won't make it true.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> There's a reason he can no longer call himself a "Doctor". Look it up. 
> 
> His paper supposedly proving that vaccines caused autism was proven to be a fraud and his "research" was set up so he could profit from the fraud.


You know, that is all it would have used to take for me.  But, then I got lyme disease.  It took years to diagnose.  Why?  Because the CDC didn't really recognize it and then when they did, they would only treat it for 2 weeks and call whatever was left, "post lyme disease".   Of course it wasn't.   The lyme bacteria were still out in full force; their treatment had not killed it all.  Their tests did not even test the right bands.  I watched while they threatened and/or removed the medical licenses from the few doctors who were helping those with this disease.

Over the years, the CDC and the AMA have gotten better on this.  But, oh the pain and suffering they caused so very many people.  I was lucky.  They didn't go after my doctor.

So, sorry, your little board doesn't hold much water to me.  Not anymore.

----------


## twoggle

> Are you serious?  Okay, I took some time and watched your stupid video at 11 minutes in.  All he said was "Echinacea is a fraud" and then goes on to start singing the praises of GMO's (very poorly I might add), and that's supposed to be your evidence?  Evidence of what?


I hope you didn't miss his classic quote at 11:09 into the video: "Acai. I don't even know what that is, but we're spending billions of dollars on it. It's fraud."

It sounds more like a religion than science.

----------


## RonRules

> You know, that is all it would have used to take for me.  But, then I got lyme disease.


With homeopathy, you'd be dead.

----------


## RonRules



----------


## RonRules

See, that's what Quacks do:

----------


## RonRules

Ready to get her shots:

----------


## LibertyEagle

> With homeopathy, you'd be dead.


No, if I would have stayed with traditional medicine and that alone, I would be dead.

Traditional medicine totally failed me and that's the truth.

----------


## RickyJ

> filling my screen with biased, opinionated pseudoscience claptrap won't make it true.


Well, filling my screen with so-called peer reviewed scientific journals that also publish the falsified data of "global warming scientists" proves absolutely nothing!

----------


## libertyjam

> I did and it says it includes Eccanesia.
> 
> But that's useless too! Really.
> 
> It's all in your mind. Allergies come and go and you're just paying attention to the positive outcomes.
> 
> The greatest advance in medical science is due to the success of proper experimental design.  You simply can't trust yourself as to what works or not.


It spelled _Echinacea_ you total loon.  And it is a well known overall immune system booster.

----------


## RickyJ

> Ready to get her shots:


She is a trusting naive kid. She has no idea her parents would be dumb enough to let her get shots that could hurt her. Why shouldn't she be happy? She trusts her parents just like you trust the .gov data.

----------


## donnay

> Which vaccines? Oh, the flu vaccines, which we already know still have thermisol in them.  And we know that partly because I posted the chart above.   
> 
> Show me peer reviewed scientific journals, and we can discuss.   But filling my screen with biased, opinionated pseudoscience claptrap won't make it true.



I have already posted some independent peer reviewed studies a couple of pages over.  *The Vaccine Racket*


*Vaccination News Reports: 90 Peer Reviewed Studies Already Condemn Thimerosal*
http://www.ageofautism.com/2011/03/v...himerosal.html


*Cover Up Continues: Monkeys Injected With Vaccines Develop Autism*
http://vactruth.com/2012/04/29/monkeys-get-autism/



It's also interesting to note; that HFCS also contains mercury.  Not only are our little ones undeveloped brains getting assaulted by vaccines but almost everything in a grocery store has HFCS!  Have a cavity--no problem we'll just fix you right up with an amalgams fillings, too!


*Study Finds High-Fructose Corn Syrup Contains Mercury*
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...012601831.html

----------


## RonRules

> I have already posted some ...


Well then, don't post them again.

----------


## donnay

> To each their own, but for me, that is going too far.  *I'm not messing with getting tetanus*.



I am not following you--you would or would not get a tetanus shot?

----------


## donnay

> Well then, don't post them again.


Especially for you, you should read them so you learn something.

“It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.”  --Mark Twain

----------


## libertyjam

> There's a reason he can no longer call himself a "Doctor". Look it up. 
> 
> His paper supposedly proving that vaccines caused autism was proven to be a fraud and his "research" was set up so he could profit from the fraud.


And you don't even look at the article presented and the mountain of evidence exonorating him or the actual paper he presented and what it actually said.

----------


## RonRules

> And you don't even look at the article presented and the mountain of evidence exonorating him or the actual paper he presented and what it actually said.


His paper was formally REMOVED from the The Lancet Journal 

He was charged for *Fraud* in the Autism-Vaccine Paper

A 1998 paper linking autism to vaccines, which set off a panic about childhood vaccination that continues today, *was based on data falsification*, according to an investigation by a journalist at the British Medical Journal (BMJ) who has spent years examining the original research. In a harsh editorial that calls the paper "fraudulent," BMJ editors recommend that other publications by the senior author, gastroenterologist Andrew Wakefield, be scrutinized because "past experience tells us that research misconduct is rarely isolated behaviour."

The investigation, by journalist Brian Deer, focuses on alleged alterations of medical records for the 12 children in the study. Among other things, it charges that preexisting symptoms the children had were "played down" to build a case that they'd had a serious reaction to the measles-mumps-rubella vaccine. Medical "records cannot be reconciled with what was published" in The Lancet, the journal where the study appeared, Deer writes in what's billed as the first in a series in BMJ.

His report is another strike against the already-retracted research, which was led by Wakefield. A 2002 study failed to replicate the findings; the British General Medical Council spent 2.5 years investigating and a year ago concluded that Wakefield's conduct was "dishonest" and "misleading." *The Lancet retracted the paper, and Wakefield lost his license to practice medicine in the United Kingdom.*

While the latest allegations go even further, it's unclear what practical impact they'll have. An anti-vaccine activist who co-founded one of the most outspoken groups that links autism to vaccines, Generation Rescue, took to the airwaves of CNN yesterday, when the BMJ investigation was released, to defend the link and argue that other studies have reported one. "To represent that the science has been done on this and we should move on is simply untrue," said J.B. Handley. It looks as though for now, little may change.


But like all good Quacks, he filed for Libel. He filed in Texas of all places. Even in Libel friendly England he had no hope.

----------


## libertyjam

The General Medical Council (GMC) of the United Kingdom has cleared the medical flack surrounding one of Dr. Andrew Wakefield’s medical colleagues, Professor John Walker-Smith, and recanted their censure against him.  In a press release dated March 7, 2012, GMC cleared Walker-Smith by overturning its decision of “guilty of serious professional misconduct.”  Even the judge ruled that the hearings were a farce—wow!

In view of that happening, I asked Dr. Wakefield, “What’s the difference between medical practice and medical research AND whether procedures performed on children were clinically necessary?”  Dr. Wakefield answered, “Medical (clinical) practice is for the benefit of the individual patient whereas research is conducted to improve knowledge and hopefully provide future benefits to sufferers generally. The procedures performed on the Lancet children were deemed clinically necessary by the clinical team caring for those children.”

Doctor’s answer prompted me to ask, “Why is that seemingly so important to the GMC?” to which Dr. Wakefield said, “What appears to have been important to the GMC was obtaining convictions in spite of the evidence.”   After considering that, I could not help but ask, “Isn’t it within a medical doctor’s jurisdiction to perform tests needed to determine cause?”  Doctor’s reply was absolutely brilliant and something the GMC probably doesn’t want to consider, “Yes, and it could be considered clinical malpractice not to have done so.” 

Embellishing upon Doctor’s last comment, I found myself asking, “What’s exploratory surgery about?  It’s done often in the USA when physicians are stumped.  Should they be punished for doing it?”  Consider his candid remark, “I interpret this term as meaning, for example, a diagnostic laparotomy to explore the abdomen when other tests have failed to find the source of a patient’s symptoms. As long as the obvious tests have been done and are negative or do not provide an adequate explanation, then it is appropriate.”

Normally I would have asked if that were applicable in the issue that got him struck from the register, but since he’s brought a lawsuit regarding the issue, I felt it best not to go there.  But I was inquisitive enough to ask, “Do you know the status of Dr. Simon Murch?” And his answer just about floored me, “I believe he is working as an academic pediatric gastroenterologist in the UK.”  Oh! Say I, hmmm.  If Professor Walker-Smith and Dr. Murch seem to be back in the good graces of the GMC, why not Dr. Wakefield, I thought.

So I asked, “Why do you think the GMC reinstated Dr. Walker-Smith?  The fact that he is retired, does that have anything to do with it, e.g., he won’t be practicing because of his age even though he’s cleared to do so?”  Dr. Wakefield then said, “The GMC had no choice but to reinstate him in view of the fact that Judge Mitting quashed their deeply flawed decision.”   Now, I wish I knew more about the British legal system and the GMC, in particular, because if what Dr. Wakefield says is the real reason—and I have no reason to doubt it—then the next logical step would be to reinstate Dr. Wakefield.  Something smells rather fishy about this entire Wakefield saga, in my opinion, and I wish the GMC would make right its apparent position regarding all physicians it struck from the register during this most disturbing of medical fiascos, in my opinion.

In spite of what I may think, I had to ask, “What can you say to MDs and researchers who feel you were on the right track regarding the MMR vaccine/autism/gut link, but don’t know what to do about following through to publication that may end in sanctions against them?”  His answer was “typical golden Wakefield,” “Decide why you chose the profession you did, do your job without compromise in the best interests of the patients, or pack up and get out.”  Gulp! And swallow hard, but that’s what a dedicated professional should do.  There’s a saying that goes something like this, “Lay down the cheese and see how many mice will come.”  In medical research the cheese often is money or grants, while the mice are the ever-anxious-to-please researchers.

As a result of what may be regarded as having to remove some stale “egg on its face” as a result of striking from the register eminent physicians, I understand that the GMC is planning some significant reforms to its fitness practice review.  So, I asked Dr. Wakefield what reform suggestions he would give GMC after having been through its bullying mill.  His answer could not have been more succinct: “This is a very big question. They need to operate entirely free from government pressures and conflicts of interest,” to which I only could add, applause, applause, and applause.

A few of the parents of the “Lancet” children showed up for the GMC’s decision on Professor Walker-Smith.  To see a short YouTube of their remarks, please click on http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=u55MNglDkos .

Something still bothers me. If Professor Walker-Smith has been exonerated, what’s happened with other physicians involved—since there were at least a dozen doctors at the Royal Free Hospital, not only Dr. Andrew Wakefield—who found the same results as Wakefield did.  However, only three doctors were brought up on misconduct charges: Walker-Smith, Wakefield, and Dr. Simon Murch.  It seems like games of professional bullying or pin the tail on some donkey transpired.  Is a vaccine’s reputation more important than finding, revealing, and publicizing something new in medical research that can help or direct understanding about an apparently newly emerging health anomaly?  Isn’t that what medical science is supposed to be about?  Or, is it science according to Big Pharma and its minions where ever they may be: the UK or the USA?

For the record, let’s get the Wakefield story correct.  Dr. Wakefield never said there was a definite link between vaccines and the MMR vaccination, only that there was a possible connection and reason for concern that ought to be investigated.  Dr. Wakefield’s story reminds one of Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis’s tragic encounter when he suggested that physicians wash their hands after doing autopsies on women who died in child birth BEFORE going into the birthing wards and examining women in labor.  Semmelweis cut childbirth fever deaths from 30 percent to about 3 percent in his wing of the hospital, yet his colleagues considered him a nut case.  So, what do physicians do today, especially surgeons?  Scrub and prepare for 10 to 20 minutes before surgery—isn’t that the routine?  Oh the games grown men play, especially when high-stake money is involved, as with Big Pharma and its vaccines, in my opinion.

If the GMC is still holding on to its arrogant position that “There is now no respectable body of opinion which supports [Dr Wakefield’s] hypothesis, that MMR vaccine and autism/enterocolitis are causally linked,” may I respectfully inform the GMC that a study performed by a team of doctors at Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, involved 275 children that confirmed Dr. Wakefield’s findings regarding bowel disease and the measles virus.  Here are the results: 70 out of 82 children tested positive for the measles virus, but just not any ordinary measles virus.

One of the Wake Forest physicians, Dr. Stephen Walker, stated that their research pointed to a vaccine measles strain that was injected into the children and not a wild, natural strain of measles virus that normally transmits from child to child.  Interesting?  Here’s Dr. Walker’s remark, “Of the handful of results we have in so far, all are vaccine strain and none are wild measles.”

Perhaps the GMC isn’t up to date on reading the medical literature, or they would be hightailing it to overturn the unwarranted decision against Dr. Andrew Wakefield.  If GMC had taken the time to do their ‘homework’ they would have found that the Wake Forest University study proves that in the gastro-intestinal tract of children diagnosed with autism, the vaccine measles virus was found in their gut.  How did it get there, if not by vaccination, especially with the MMR vaccine?  Infants and toddlers normally don’t drink measles-laced formula.

If the Wake Forest study is not enough, how about the 2001 study by Dr. John O’Leary, Professor of Pathology, done at the St. James Hospital and Trinity College in Dublin, Ireland, that came up with the same findings as Wake Forest and Dr. Wakefield.  Okay, we now have three confirming studies that can no longer be consider the ‘Wakefield hypothesis’.

The article “Persistent measles virus infection of the intestine: confirmation by immunogold electron microscopy,” by Lewin, Dhillon, Sim, Mazure, Pounder, and Wakefield [1] April 1995 still appears on PubMed Central’s web site at NIH.  The last line of the Abstract for that article states:

This study provides the first direct confirmation of persistent measles virus infection of the intestine.

Something does not comport, and I hope you can follow this.  Why would the U.S. National Institutes of Health still have Dr. Wakefield’s findings published as part of its medical library information IF those findings were not respectable?  The PDF file of the article is available at this link http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1382498/ .

If the above is not sufficient for the GMC to rethink Dr. Wakefield’s unwarranted striking from the register with immediate reinstatement, then how about their studying the following:

    Elevated levels of measles antibodies in children with autism. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12849883
    Detection and sequencing of measles virus from peripheral mononuclear cells from patients with inflammatory bowel disease and autism. “The sequences obtained from the patients with ulcerative colitis and children with autism were consistent with being vaccine strains.” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10759242

Perhaps the GMC’s significant reforms they anticipate introducing ought to include a statement of regret and an apology to all physicians affected by the apparent witch hunt or bullying tactics that transpired with regard to respectable men of medicine who were trying to move the ball farther down the court in the baffling world of childhood diseases that are emerging simultaneously with—or as a result of—the global vaccination mandates agenda.
http://vactruth.com/2012/03/11/gener...uncil-recants/

By John Stone

Following the exoneration of John Walker-Smith in the High Court in March I wrote to the Lancet’s editor, Richard Horton, pleading with him to re-instate the Wakefield 1998 paper in the interests of children in the UK being denied medical investigation and treatment following the witch-hunt against Wakefield and colleagues both in the Sunday Times, and latterly British Medical Journal. Horton replied lamely:

“Dear Mr Stone - I would be horrified if doctors did not take the symptoms of any child seriously. So I sincerely hope that a child with symptoms of autism would be examined and investigated with care and sensitivity.

“My Best, Richard Horton”

(Email, 15 March 2012, 10.07pm)

To which I fired back:

“That is why you should re-instate the paper. It has become ideologically taboo in this country to accept that there is a real problem. The GMC tried to make out that the cases were fabricated and that gastro symptoms were only superficial, and the judge decided that they only selected the evidence which suited them. But for years members of the medical profession have been terrified to follow in their footsteps, and really based on the words of Mr Deer, Evan Harris, Tony Blair and Liam Donaldson. Two of these people may have been doctors of a sort but none of them had the knowledge, the ethical probity or the kindness of John Walker-Smith.”

And answer came there none: Dr Horton may or may not be “horrified”, but so far he is not prepared to do anything about it. As Martin Hewitt pointed out here last week there is not now the faintest scientific or legal reason not to re-instate the paper. But unfortunately this not only a matter of historical fairness. As the case of Jon Edwards – highlighted in a new film from Autism Team – makes abundantly clear, until our political class and medical establishment address their bad consciences nothing for these children is going to happen in the United Kingdom.

This is the trailer for the film about Jon Edwards ‘Changing Lives’. That's Jon's Mum in the photo above holding up one of the adults sized nappies he wore until.... Watch the trailer.



John Stone is UK Editor for Age of Autism. Dr Horton's email address is richard.horton@lancet.com

Posted by Age of Autism at April 30, 2012 at 12:01 AM in Dr. Andrew Wakefield, John Stone | Permalink | Comments (42)

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The Lancet should Reinstate the Andrew Wakefield Paper

The-lancet-illustrationBy Martin Hewitt

In the wake of the High Court judgment on Professor John Walker-Smith’s appeal against the decision of the General Medical Council (the UK regulatory body for doctors) to delicense him, what should now happen to the retracted paper he co-authored with Dr Andrew Wakefield? The decision lies with The Lancet editor, Dr Richard Horton. But what are the grounds for reinstating the paper as a properly conducted clinical investigation into 12 children with autism and bowel disease admitted to the paediatric gastroenterology department at the Royal Free Hospital (RFH) London in the mid-1990s? The paper was the focus of the GMC’s trial of the three senior authors on charges of serious professional misconduct which led to the delicensing of Walker-Smith and Wakefield.

Background

Few academic articles have been dogged by the controversy attending the now retracted  Lancet Paper ‘Ileal-lymphoid-nodular hyperplasia, non-specific colitis, and pervasive developmental disorder in children’ since its publication in February 1998. (Another link to retracted paper here.) In seeking to avert controversy The Lancet published an editorial accompanying the paper to warn against drawing the wrong conclusions that the paper had established that the MMR caused autism and bowel disease. The paper, which went through several cautious redrafts, said it "did not prove an association between measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine and the syndrome described”, adding that “Virological studies are underway that may help to resolve this issue”.

On publication the RFH took the exceptional step of holding a press conference to launch the paper in the hope of preventing the media and public from concluding that the MMR was unsafe and to avert a collapse in MMR take-up. When Dr Andrew Wakefield the lead writer was asked by the press if he would personally support the three-in-one MMR vaccine, he responded by advising parents to choose the single measles, mumps and rubella vaccines spaced out at intervals. Whilst his comments were seized on by the press as evidence that the MMR was unsafe and by the medical establishment as highly irresponsible, his answer accorded with official government policy. At the time the government vaccination schedule offered the choice between MMR and the three separate vaccines, in accord with the Department of Health's express policy when the MMR was launched in 1988.
http://www.ageofautism.com/dr-andrew-wakefield/

Wakefield’s Lancet Paper Vindicated – [Yet Again]
Posted on May 6, 2010 by ChildHealthSafety

[STOP PRESS: New papers keep emerging - see additions below 22nd May & 5th June 2010]

New independent research presented at the 2010 Pediatric Academic Societies Annual Meeting in Vancouver, Canada confirms unequivocally the findings of Dr Andrew Wakefield’s 1998 Lancet paper of an association between autism and serious gastrointestinal disease in children [Full Details Below].

And do vaccines cause autistic conditions?  If you read nothing else we strongly recommend you read this PDF Download:– Text of email from US HRSA to Sharyl Attkisson of CBS News].  In it the US Health Resources Services Administration [HRSA] state to CBS News reporter Sharyl Attkisson

    We have compensated cases in which children exhibited an encephalopathy, or general brain disease. Encephalopathy may be accompanied by a medical progression of an array of symptoms including autistic behavior, autism, or seizures.”

Despite all the lies and deceit by health official worldwide, the question was answered when the Hannah  Poling story broke in the USA [see CHS article here].  Hannah developed an autistic condition after 9 vaccines administered the same day.  Under the media spotlight the question was answered by numerous US health officials and agencies and broadcast on nationwide TV news from CBS and CNN.  The answer is “Yes”. Full details with links to the original sources can be found in this CHS article: Vaccination Causes Autism – Say US Government & Merck’s Director of Vaccines. [Blue Text added 10 April 2011]

The new study was conducted by the Autism Speaks Autism Treatment Network and covered data from 15 treatment and research centers in the United States and Canada.  Of 1185 children aged 2 to18 years with an autistic condition 45% were reported to have GI symptoms. Abdominal pain was most common (59%) followed by constipation (51%), diarrhea (43%), other (40%), nausea (31%) and bloating (26%). Reports of GI symptoms increased with age.  Sleep problems occurred in 70% of children with than those without GI symptoms (30%).  The problems affected all children regardless of gender, ethnic background or intelligence.

Wakefield’s 1998 Lancet case series on 12 children stated:

    Interpretation: We identified associated gastrointestinal disease and developmental regression in a group of previously normal children, which was generally associated in time with possible environmental triggers.”

    A J Wakefield, S H Murch, A Anthony, J Linnell, D M Casson, M Malik, M Berelowitz, A P Dhillon, M A Thomson, P Harvey, A Valentine, S E Davies, J A Walker-Smith “Ileal-lymphoid-nodular hyperplasia, non-specific colitis, and pervasive developmental disorder in children” THE LANCET • Vol 351 • February 28, 1998. The Lancet paper was retracted by The Lancet after the General Medical Council decision in January 2010 in the case of Professors Walker-Smith, Simon Murch and Mr Andrew Wakefield.  [Added 26 May 2010].

But this is not the first time Wakefield’s research has been confirmed by independent researchers around the world.  Read a previous article and see the list of papers replicating Wakefield’s Lancet paper research: Sunday Times’ Discredited – Wakefield’s Autism Research Verified

And another recently published paper in Pediatrics Journal by 27 authors confirms a medical consensus that

    Gastrointestinal disorders and associated symptoms are commonly reported in individuals with ASDs, but key issues such as the prevalence and best treatment of these conditions are incompletely understood.”

    Evaluation, Diagnosis, and Treatment of Gastrointestinal Disorders in Individuals With ASDs:PEDIATRICS Volume 125, Supplement 1, January 2010 [Added 22 May 2010].

And yet another just published paper [3 June 2010] from researchers at Imperial College, London also supports Wakefield and Walker-Smith’s original finding.

    People with autism are also known to suffer from gastrointestinal disorders and they have a different makeup of bacteria in their guts from non-autistic people. Today’s research shows that it is possible to distinguish between autistic and non-autistic children by looking at the by-products of gut bacteria and the body’s metabolic processes in the children’s urine. The exact biological significance of gastrointestinal disorders in the development of autism is unknown

    Children with autism have a different chemical fingerprint in their urine than non-autistic children, Imperial College News Release Thursday 3 June 2010, “Urinary Metabolic Phenotyping Differentiates Children with Autism from Their Unaffected Siblings and Age-Matched Controls,” Journal of Proteome Research, published in print 4 June 2010. [Added 5 June 2010]

Additionally, one of the witnesses in the GMC proceedings against Dr Wakefield writing to the British Medical Journal confirmed the validity of the histopathology on which the paper was based and illustrated how Sunday Times journalist Brian Deer had misrepresented her evidence.  Dr Susan E Davies, Consultant Histopathologist, Addenbrooke’s Hospital, Cambridge stated in the British Medical Journal regarding a BMJ article by Brian Deer that:

    There is some misrepresentation …. and lack of understanding of the process in studies involving histopathology.” and that there were significant findings “While a clinical gastroenterologist might consider caecal active inflammation with incipient crypt abscess formation to be normal in children (1), this is a significant finding to be recorded by pathologists“

    “Caution in assessing histopathological opinions.” BMJ Rapid Responses 30 April 2010.

So will Dr Richard Horton, editor of The Lancet now “unretract” The Lancet paper?

Read the abstract of the new US research vindicating Wakefield’s work here:

[2320.7] GI Symptoms in Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD): An Autism Treatment Network Study

Kent Williams, George J. Fuchs, Glenn Furuta, Margaret Marcon, Daniel L. Coury, Autism Treatment Network GI Committee. Vanderbilt University, Nashville, TN; University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences, Little Rock, AK; University of Colorado at Denver, Denver, CO; Hospital for Sick Children, Toronto, Canada; Nationwide Children’s Hospital, Columbus, OH.

BACKGROUND: The prevalence of GI symptoms in children and adolescents with ASD is uncertain, with studies reporting conflicting results.

OBJECTIVE: To determine the frequency of GI symptoms as reported by parents in a large ASD registry, and to identify factors associated with GI symptoms in children with ASD.

DESIGN/METHODS: Autism Treatment Network Registry enrolled 1420 children, age 2-18 years, with an ADOS-confirmed ASD diagnosis (autism, Asperger disorder, or PDD-NOS) at 15 sites in the US and Canada. Parents completed a GI symptom inventory tailored to the needs of nonverbal children, as well as Child Behavior Checklist (CBCL), Child Sleep Health Questionnaire (CSHQ) and Pediatric Quality of Life (PedsQL) at time of enrollment.

RESULTS: GI symptom data were available for 1185 children. Overall 45% of children were reported to have GI symptoms at time of enrollment. Of GI complaints that occurred within the 3 months prior to enrollment, abdominal pain was most common (59%) followed by constipation (51%), diarrhea (43%), other (40%), nausea (31%) and bloating (26%). Reports of GI symptoms increased with age, ranging from 39% in those under 5 years to 51% in those 7 years and older (p<0.0001). Children ages 1 to 5 years with GI symptoms had higher CBCL t-scores for total problems and for the emotionally reactive, anxious/depressed, somatic complaints, sleep problems, internalizing problems, affective problems, and anxiety problems subscales, all p<0.05. Children ages 6 to 18 years with GI symptoms had higher CBCL t-scores for total problems and for all subscales (p<0.01). Sleep problems occurred more frequently in children with than those without GI symptoms (70% versus 30%, p<0.0001). Children with GI symptoms had lower PedsQL scores (overall score and all five subscales, p<0.01) compared to children without GI problems. Presence of GI problems did not differ by gender, ASD subtype, race, or IQ.

CONCLUSIONS: Parents of children with ASD report a high prevalence of GI symptoms in their children. This prevalence increases with age. GI complaints are significantly associated with behavioral abnormalities in all age groups. GI symptoms are also significantly associated with sleep disturbances and decreased health-related quality of life. Further definition is needed on the role and potential impact of treatment of GI disorders on behavior, sleep disturbance, and quality of life in children with ASD.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> That's some bullet-proof speculation science there


Why the need to cross out speculation?

What, you think I'm going to take offense and start an internet tirade?

Of *course* it's speculation, there have been some studies confirming this, some denying this.

I've looked at it personally and made a personal decision based on what I've read.

I don't know why "speculation" has such negative connotations anymore, although my guess is the compliant and _"safety uber alles"_ society we live in today.

Speculation is the start of all good science:

"Hmm...will this wing fly?"

"What will happen if I combine these materials?"

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> His paper was formally REMOVED from the The Lancet Journal 
> 
> He was charged for *Fraud* in the Autism-Vaccine Paper
> 
> A 1998 paper linking autism to vaccines, which set off a panic about childhood vaccination that continues today, *was based on data falsification*, according to an investigation by a journalist at the British Medical Journal (BMJ) who has spent years examining the original research. In a harsh editorial that calls the paper "fraudulent," BMJ editors recommend that other publications by the senior author, gastroenterologist Andrew Wakefield, be scrutinized because "past experience tells us that research misconduct is rarely isolated behaviour."
> 
> The investigation, by journalist Brian Deer, focuses on alleged alterations of medical records for the 12 children in the study. Among other things, it charges that preexisting symptoms the children had were "played down" to build a case that they'd had a serious reaction to the measles-mumps-rubella vaccine. Medical "records cannot be reconciled with what was published" in The Lancet, the journal where the study appeared, Deer writes in what's billed as the first in a series in BMJ.
> 
> His report is another strike against the already-retracted research, which was led by Wakefield. A 2002 study failed to replicate the findings; the British General Medical Council spent 2.5 years investigating and a year ago concluded that Wakefield's conduct was "dishonest" and "misleading." *The Lancet retracted the paper, and Wakefield lost his license to practice medicine in the United Kingdom.*
> ...


This last line detracts from the quality of the article.  If you can't make a case against him without resorting to insults and informal fallacies, it's kind of a waste of time for readers and comes off as snarky and rude.

----------


## libertyjam

Since you think Dr. Wakefield was justifiably removed by the UK board, maybe you should lobby for the removal of this Dr.'s medical license as well for the following paper since the calims are no less inflammatory than anything Dr. Wakefield suggested. 

Vaccines and Brain Inflammation – June 1, 2011
Harold E Buttram, MD and Catherine J Frompovich
http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/20...-inflammation/

----------


## James Madison

> I am against all vaccines, large or small.
> 
> *
> Tetanus – The Disease and the Vaccine*
> http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20100317.htm
> 
> *Tetanus vaccine adverse reactions*
> http://www.whale.to/a/tetanus1.html


Yeah, there's about a 50% mortality rate in untreated cases of tetanus. Probably not a good idea to refuse the shot.

What do you think about the rabies vaccine? Would you get that one?

----------


## juleswin

> Show me line by line where I'm wrong, please.
> 
> While you're at it, please show where Steven Novella is wrong.
> 
> Also, why is polio completely irradiated in this country? 
> 
> It's because EVERYBODY got vaccinated.


Viruses mutate all the time, so? Ever wonder why it never mutates to a virus that is less pathogenic or not pathogenic at all or how come we never get to see the same flu virus come 2x in a life time i.e 2 H2N3 viruses (viral capsule which is the only relevant mutation with the flu). I am not an anti vacc but I too are concerned with the number of vaccines our children are getting every year, I got 8 different shots when I was growing up in the 80s but now kids are getting vaccines up int the 100s

----------


## RonRules

> This last line detracts from the quality of the article.  If you can't make a case against him without resorting to insults and informal fallacies, it's kind of a waste of time for readers and comes off as snarky and rude.


I wrote the last line. I wrote in such a way it would be obvious.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> I wrote the last line. I wrote in such a way it would be obvious.


Yeah, I got that from how you added extra space.  My point was that your comment detracted from the point being made in the article, which was logically sound and spoke for itself.

----------


## RonRules

> The General Medical Council (GMC) of the United Kingdom has cleared the medical flack surrounding one of Dr. Andrew Wakefields medical ....
> 
> Bla bla bla
> 
> Quack quack quack


Hey!  The GMC was *registered as a charity* with the Charity Commission of England and Wales.

This is NOT the governing body for medical doctors in England!

Instead go see what THESE guys have to say:
*The Council for Healthcare Regulatory Excellence (CHRE), is an independent body accountable to the UK Parliament,*

Did Wakefield get his license back? *NO.*

*One reason I hate the guy is he's probably screwing the woman in my avatar!*

*Wakefield is no longer licensed in the UK as a physician, and is not licensed in the US.* 
As of January 2011, he lives in the US where *he has a following including celebrities like Jenny McCarthy.*

Actually, I'm kidding, it's Elle McPherson that I'm screwing on my avatar.

----------


## RonRules

[QUOTE=libertyjam;4548752]Since you think Dr. Wakefield was justifiably removed by the UK board, /QUOTE]

It's not what I think. He WAS removed and he's still removed.

----------


## libertyjam

[QUOTE=RonRules;4548808]


> Since you think Dr. Wakefield was justifiably removed by the UK board, /QUOTE]
> 
> It's not what I think. He WAS removed and he's still removed.


What part of Unjustifiably do you not understand loon?

----------


## libertyjam

> Bla bla bla
> 
> Quack quack quack


Yep, that's all you got, a propensity to bury your head in the sand, not read anything that might shake your little totalitarian world view, and remain ignorant.

----------


## angelatc

> For the record, WRT to the vaccine/autism link, I am not convinced that mercury containing preservatives are to blame here.
> 
> I am fairly convinced it is the vaccines *themselves*, given at earlier and earlier ages, to the point of birth now, and in increasing amounts and combinations, trigger an autoimmune response that literally fries the developing brain.
> 
> I suspect this may be causal factor in the increased rates of deadly allergies as well.


I think allergies are related to two things.  One - high strung emotional people seem to have allergies.  Two - air conditioning.  I think that air conditioning keeps children from developing immunities to things like dust and grass.  Note that this is my personal totally unscientific opinion, and not intended to be interpreted as any sort of truth.   But as the air has become cleaner and cleaner, the rate of breathing disorders and allergies has sky-rocketed.

I don't think autism is related to vaccines at all.  But I can't believe nobody's done a single study on it.

----------


## angelatc

> Since you think Dr. Wakefield was justifiably removed by the UK board, maybe you should lobby for the removal of this Dr.'s medical license as well for the following paper since the calims are no less inflammatory than anything Dr. Wakefield suggested. 
> 
> Vaccines and Brain Inflammation – June 1, 2011
> Harold E Buttram, MD and Catherine J Frompovich
> http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/20...-inflammation/


Did he falsify records to get the results he wanted?  If so, then put me on the lobby list.

----------


## donnay

> And you don't even look at the article presented and the mountain of evidence exonorating him or the actual paper he presented and what it actually said.


Dr. Wakefield is a great man.  The Lancet also had to retract what they said about him.  He is presently suing the BMJ, journalist Brian Deer for defamation--I hope he wins BIG!

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I think that air conditioning keeps children from developing immunities to things like dust and grass.  Note that this is my personal totally unscientific opinion, and not intended to be interpreted as any sort of truth.   But as the air has become cleaner and cleaner, the rate of breathing disorders and allergies has sky-rocketed.


A corollary to the "germ exposure" theory.

Speculation.

And like I said earlier, there is nothing wrong with that, speculation leads to testing the theory, which leads to proving or disproving the theory.

Which is, of course, good science.

Not in rigidly clinging to "established" ideas as the final and penultimate truth in the entire universe, world without end, hallelujah, amen.

----------


## donnay

> Yeah, there's about a 50% mortality rate in untreated cases of tetanus. Probably not a good idea to refuse the shot.
> 
> What do you think about the rabies vaccine? Would you get that one?


*
Girl survives rabies without vaccination* 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43377860...t-vaccination/

Of course they tell us this is very, very rare.  

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...ff_rabies/all/
http://digitaljournal.com/article/262361

*Adverse events following rabies vaccine*
http://www.whale.to/a/rabies.html

----------


## James Madison

> *
> Girl survives rabies without vaccination* 
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43377860...t-vaccination/


The heading under the article tells us she's only the third person in recorded history to survive. 



> Of course they tell us this is very, very rare.


Because it is rare. The rabies virus she contracted was either highly mutated or the individual possessed a unique polymorphism that prevents the virus from terminating the patient. Either way, you wouldn't be so lucky. If you contract rabies and fail to treat the infection YOU WILL DIE 99.999999999% of the time. 
*



Adverse events following rabies vaccine
http://www.whale.to/a/rabies.html


*

Considering the alternative is death, I'll take my chances with any adverse effects.

----------


## GeorgiaAvenger

Most of the nuttery stems from this site: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/NaturalNews

Why anybody even considers that information given its track record let alone takes it as truth leaves me bewildered. My BS meter explodes whenever I see an article from that site posted here.

----------


## donnay

> Most of the nuttery stems from this site: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/NaturalNews
> 
> Why anybody even considers that information given its track record let alone takes it as truth leaves me bewildered. My BS meter explodes whenever I see an article from that site posted here.


What track record do they have?

----------


## RonRules

> Most of the nuttery stems from this site: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/NaturalNews
> 
> Why anybody even considers that information given its track record let alone takes it as truth leaves me bewildered. My BS meter explodes whenever I see an article from that site posted here.


There is a similar group right here in Riverside and I know them personally. 

http://www.nutritionnews.com

I've been to their place about a dozen times, because they're good friends with an acquaintance of mine. They know better to avoid the subject of medicine when I'm around.

It's all quack, because it sells subscriptions.

WHAT YOU WILL NOT SEE on their publication is this: 
The editor in chief got cancer about a year ago and she has been doing heavy chemotherapy and radiation treatments. She also went to NY for specialized radiation treatments. 

She is doing better now, but most of her friends had (privately) discussed she would not live much longer.

Chemotherapy and radiation saved her. You won't see anything positive on their website about modern scientific medicine. 
http://www.nutritionnews.com/?s=chemotherapy


This is absolutely true.

----------


## RonRules

And of course, look at the crappy articles:

http://www.nutritionnews.com/health/...into-children/

----------


## donnay

> *The heading under the article tells us she's only the third person in recorded history to survive.* 
> 
> 
> Because it is rare. The rabies virus she contracted was either highly mutated or the individual possessed a unique polymorphism that prevents the virus from terminating the patient. Either way, you wouldn't be so lucky. If you contract rabies and fail to treat the infection YOU WILL DIE 99.999999999% of the time. 
> 
> 
> Considering the alternative is death, I'll take my chances with any adverse effects.


Of course the dinosaur media is going to spew that she is only the third person in recorded history to survive.  Got to keep giving people the same propaganda.  How many cause go unrecorded?

Just like Tetanus--  I got a deep cut from rusty barbed wire fence, on my hand one day, I used Hydrogen Peroxide (good food grade HP), and I irrigated the wound well with it.  I then put pure manuka honey to a bandage and wrapped it around the wound.  I repeated that a couple times a day.  I never got lock jaw.  I do research for a reason--not so I can run around with useless trivia running through my head.  I really do practice what I preach.

----------


## Zippyjuan

Not every piece of rusty metal has tetanus. Not getting it does not necessarily mean you were exposed and cured yourself. It is proof of nothing other than you cut yourself and it healed. But perhaps it did help. 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001640/



> Thorough cleaning of all injuries and wounds and the removal of dead or severely injured tissue (debridement), when appropriate, may reduce the risk of developing tetanus. If you have been injured outside or in any way that makes contact with soil likely, contact your health care provider regarding the possible risk for tetanus.
> 
> Many people believe injuries caused by rusty nails are the most dangerous. This is true only if the nail is dirty as well as rusty, as is usually the case. It is the dirt on the nail, not the rust, that carries the risk for tetanus.

----------


## James Madison

> Of course the dinosaur media is going to spew that she is only the third person in recorded history to survive.  Got keep people the same propaganda going.  How many cause go unrecorded?


Oh yeah, it's a total conspiracy. 

I challenge you to take this opinion to ANY microbiologist, virologist, pathologist, etc. They will laugh in your face at the ridiculous nature of what you're saying. Go out, find a rabid animal, have it bite you, and see if you're right. Since it's all a big conspiracy nothing could go wrong, right?




> Just like Tetanus--  I got a deep cut from rusty barbed wire fence, on my hand one day, I used Hydrogen Peroxide (good food grade HP), and I irrigated the wound well with it.  I then put pure manuka honey to a bandage and wrapped it around the wound.  I repeated that a couple times a day.  I never got lock jaw.  I do research for a reason--not so I can run around with useless trivia running through my head.  I really do practice what I preach.


No. You didn't get tetanus because the bacteria weren't on in the freaking fence in the first place.

----------


## RonRules

> Dr. Wakefield is a great man.  The Lancet also had to retract what they said about him.  He is presently suing the BMJ, journalist Brian Deer for defamation--I hope he wins BIG!


The suit is not over, don't sell yourself short!

Here's why Wakefield is such a scumbag:

From Wiki:
In January 2011, an editorial accompanying an article by Brian Deer in BMJ identified Wakefield's work as an "elaborate fraud". In a follow-up article, Deer said that *Wakefield had planned to launch a venture on the back of an MMR vaccination* scare that would *profit from new medical tests* and "*litigation driven testing*"


In November 2004, Channel 4 broadcast a one-hour Dispatches investigation by reporter Brian Deer; the Toronto Star said Deer had "produced documentary evidence that Wakefield applied for a patent on a single-jab measles vaccine before his campaign against the MMR vaccine, raising questions about his motives"

*Within days of Deer's report, Wakefield dropped all his libel actions[62] and was required to pay all the defendants' legal costs.*


From: http://briandeer.com/wakefield-deer.htm
Wakefield's patents: One of the programme's revelations was that, nine months before Wakefield made a notorious 1998 call for a return to single vaccines instead of the triple MMR, *he had filed the first of a string of claims for products which could only succeed if MMR was damaged*. These included *his own single measles vaccine*, diagnostic tests and treatments.

Deer was named *specialist journalist of the year* in recognition of his Sunday Times investigation into the Andrew Wakefield MMR-autism fraud.

----------


## RonRules

So let me see if I got my own post right:

Wakefield tried to trash the perfectly good MMR vaccine so he could *replace it with HIS OWN VACCINE!*

Yep, that's right little fishies!

----------


## donnay

> Not every piece of rusty metal has tetanus. Not getting it does not necessarily mean you were exposed and cured yourself. It is proof of nothing other than you cut yourself and it healed. But perhaps it did help. 
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001640/


The thing is, if I ran to the emergency room, they wouldn't run any test either.  They would ask me when was the last time I had a tetanus shot and if it over 10 years they would just give it to you.

----------


## donnay

> Oh yeah, it's a total conspiracy. 
> 
> I challenge you to take this opinion to ANY microbiologist, virologist, pathologist, etc. They will laugh in your face at the ridiculous nature of what you're saying. Go out, find a rabid animal, have it bite you, and see if you're right. Since it's all a big conspiracy nothing could go wrong, right?
> 
> 
> 
> *No. You didn't get tetanus because the bacteria weren't on in the freaking fence in the first place.*


Really you know this, how?  The way I looked at it is, it could have very well caused an infection so I immediately took the precautions to try and remedy it.

The true conspiracy is not thinking for yourself.

----------


## RonRules

I almost forgot to show you this:

http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.co...ount/Home.html

----------


## RonRules

> I almost forgot to show you this:
> 
> http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.co...ount/Home.html



*The Jenny McCarthy Body Count Video*

----------


## James Madison

> Really you know this, how?  The way I looked at it is, it could have very well caused an infection so I immediately took the precautions to try and remedy it.
> 
> The true conspiracy is not thinking for yourself.


So, what was the point of the original post? To point out you may or may not have been exposed to tetanus and that somehow this proves your treatment worked even though you have no evidence the bacterium was even present? Seriously?

----------


## donnay

> So, what was the point of the original post? To point out you may or may not have been exposed to tetanus and that somehow this proves your treatment worked even though you have no evidence the bacterium was even present? Seriously?


And again if you go to an emergency room, do they do test for tetanus or do the just ask you when was the last time you had a shot?  They would have never known if the barb wire I cut myself on had tetanus either.

----------


## James Madison

> And again if you go to an emergency room, do they do test for tetanus or do the just ask you when was the last time you had a shot?  They would have never known if the barb wire I cut myself on had tetanus either.


Because if you knew anything about microbiology you would be aware that the bacterium responsible for tetanus cannot engage in aerobic respiration, it must use some other compound as the FEA during metabolism. Meaning, its growth patterns can be quite erratic, taking days or (rarely) even weeks to produce enough organism required for a diagnosis. By this point you would likely be dead. Because the vaccine is harmless (and, yes, it is harmless except in a MICROSCOPIC number of cases) there's no reason to take a 'wait and see' approach.

----------


## donnay

> Because if you knew anything about microbiology you would be aware that the bacterium responsible for tetanus cannot engage in aerobic respiration, it must use some other compound as the FEA during metabolism. Meaning, its growth patterns can be quite erratic, taking days or (rarely) even weeks to produce enough organism required for a diagnosis. By this point you would likely be dead. Because the vaccine is harmless (and, yes, it is harmless except in a MICROSCOPIC number of cases) there's no reason to take a 'wait and see' approach.


*History of tetanus*

Tetanus incidence and mortality declined by more than 99 percent prior to the development of the tetanus vaccine in the 1940s. This decline is cited from medical sources in the book Vaccines: Are They Really Safe and Effective? by Neil Z. Miller:

“During the mid-1800s, there were 205 cases of tetanus per 100,000 wounds among U.S. military personnel. By the early 1900s, this rate had declined to 16 cases per 100,000 wounds--a 92 percent reduction. During the mid-1940s, the incidence of tetanus dropped even further to .44 cases per 100,000 wounds. Some researchers attribute this decline to an increased attention to wound hygiene.”

Post tetanus vaccine history

It is clear that knowledge of sanitation and wound hygiene are the main factors decreasing both the incidence and death rate of tetanus. While the tetanus vaccine was allegedly developed to prevent tetanus, there is no proof this vaccine has ever prevented a single case of tetanus. Tetanus is a problem of wound hygiene; not vaccination status.

Tetanus has not been eliminated in this country and is reported to be most prevalent in nursing homes. It is in these places that bedridden patients develop decubitus ulcers or bedsores that are not properly cared for. The tetanus spore thrives in an open wound that has gotten dirty and is deprived of oxygen. There is nothing about developing tetanus and recovering that can impart immunity to this disease. If a person is careless about wound hygiene s/he may get it again and again regardless of his/her vaccination status.

Official statistics from various countries reveal that the vaccine does not protect one from contracting tetanus. The Robert Koch Institute in Germany admits that 66 percent of people who get tetanus have been fully vaccinated. The rate in Switzerland was 50 percent fully vaccinated who contracted tetanus. 

http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20100317.htm

----------


## LibertyEagle

> I am not following you--you would or would not get a tetanus shot?


I *do* get them.

----------


## donnay

> I *do* get them.


Okay...wasn't sure what you meant.

----------


## RonRules

I think donnay is starting to feel the pain of this thread:


Want more pain?

----------


## donnay

> I think donnay is starting to feel the pain of this thread:
> 
> 
> Want more pain?


Honey, I am just getting warmed up--bring it on!

----------


## James Madison

> *History of tetanus*
> 
> Tetanus incidence and mortality declined by more than 99 percent prior to the development of the tetanus vaccine in the 1940s. This decline is cited from medical sources in the book Vaccines: Are They Really Safe and Effective? by Neil Z. Miller:
> 
> During the mid-1800s, there were 205 cases of tetanus per 100,000 wounds among U.S. military personnel. By the early 1900s, this rate had declined to 16 cases per 100,000 wounds--a 92 percent reduction. During the mid-1940s, the incidence of tetanus dropped even further to .44 cases per 100,000 wounds. Some researchers attribute this decline to an increased attention to wound hygiene.


No kidding! You mean discovering that microorganisms are the cause of disease and not evil spirits decreased disease incidence?! No way! 

Again, what's your point? Nobody is challenging that improved sanitation played a significant role in reducing disease incidence and mortality. Same thing with antibiotics (not that effective against tetanus, mind you), acceptance of germ theory, and widespread use of disinfectants. It still doesn't diminish the importance of vaccines given to patients that are already infected. This is especially true of tetanus as the bacterium itself is not the target of immunization but rather the toxin. Disinfectants, soap, and hand sanitizers WILL NOT denature this toxin. Same thing happens when you leave food out in the hot sun all day. Even if you heat it back up, the toxins are still present and you still get sick. 




> Post tetanus vaccine history
> 
> It is clear that knowledge of sanitation and wound hygiene are the main factors decreasing both the incidence and death rate of tetanus. While the tetanus vaccine was allegedly developed to prevent tetanus, there is no proof this vaccine has ever prevented a single case of tetanus. *Tetanus is a problem of wound hygiene; not vaccination status*.


I just told you why hygiene is often times ineffective in tetanus patients. Vaccination targets bacterial toxin. Hygiene doesn't.






> Tetanus has not been eliminated in this country and is reported to be most prevalent in nursing homes. It is in these places that bedridden patients develop decubitus ulcers or bedsores that are not properly cared for. The tetanus spore thrives in an open wound that has gotten dirty and is deprived of oxygen. There is nothing about developing tetanus and recovering that can impart immunity to this disease. If a person is careless about wound hygiene s/he may get it again and again regardless of his/her vaccination status.


I don't even know what the point of this paragraph is.




> Official statistics from various countries reveal that the vaccine does not protect one from contracting tetanus. The Robert Koch Institute in Germany admits that 66 percent of people who get tetanus have been fully vaccinated. The rate in Switzerland was 50 percent fully vaccinated who contracted tetanus.


This seems to be a reoccurring theme. For the last time: no vaccination is 100% effective. Sometimes they don't work. Just like sometimes your cells screw up and develop mutations. That's the way it works. 

Of course, the majority of people who get tetanus have been fully vaccinated. What percentage of the public is vaccinated? 95%? 97%? 99%? When you can understand basic statistics get back to me.

----------


## twoggle

> *History of tetanus*
> http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20100317.htm


Here are a selection of links about 
alternatives to vaccine and recovery
from vaccine damage. There's one link
about tetanus and a dog:
http://www.whale.to/vaccine/homeopathy.html

I don't let any namecalling and fear
tactics intimidate me into getting
a shot (including tetanus). But
everyone has to make their own
personal medical decisions hopefully
without threats of government
violence.

----------


## donnay

> No kidding! You mean discovering that microorganisms are the cause of disease and not evil spirits decreased disease incidence?! No way! 
> 
> Again, what's your point? Nobody is challenging that improved sanitation played a significant role in reducing disease incidence and mortality. Same thing with antibiotics (not that effective against tetanus, mind you), acceptance of germ theory, and widespread use of disinfectants. It still doesn't diminish the importance of vaccines given to patients that are already infected. This is especially true of tetanus as the bacterium itself is not the target of immunization but rather the toxin. Disinfectants, soap, and hand sanitizers WILL NOT denature this toxin. Same thing happens when you leave food out in the hot sun all day. Even if you heat it back up, the toxins are still present and you still get sick. 
> 
> 
> 
> I just told you why hygiene is often times ineffective in tetanus patients. Vaccination targets bacterial toxin. Hygiene doesn't.
> 
> 
> ...



What's funny is you are just parroting the establishment while you are accusing me of parroting the anti-establishment.

So what your are parroting is that I need to have the vaccine to build my immunity.   However, I would rather have a healthy immune system by proper nutrition; vitamins, minerals and essential amino acids.

Have you taken a glance at the concoction in the tetanus vaccine?

Formaldehyde, aluminum phosphate, ammonium sulfate, and thimerosal. 

I think I will stick to making sure my immune system is healthy with proper nutrition.

----------


## donnay

> Here are a selection of links about 
> alternatives to vaccine and recovery
> from vaccine damage. There's one link
> about tetanus and a dog:
> http://www.whale.to/vaccine/homeopathy.html
> 
> I don't let any namecalling and fear
> tactics intimidate me into getting
> a shot (including tetanus). But
> ...


Thank you I am very familiar with that site.  I agree with you, no one should be force, which is exactly what is coming down the pike, if people don't critically think for themselves by doing their own research and stop relying on the lies and scare tactics implemented for decades.

----------


## James Madison

> What's funny is you are just parroting the establishment while you are accusing me of parroting the anti-establishment.
> 
> So what your are parroting is that I need to have the vaccine to build my immunity.   However, I would rather have a healthy immune system by proper nutrition; vitamins, minerals and essential amino acids.
> 
> Have you taken a glance at the concoction in the tetanus vaccine?
> 
> formaldehyde, aluminum phosphate, ammonium sulfate, and thimerosal. 
> 
> I think I will stick to making sure my immune system is healthy with proper nutrition.


I've worked with these diseases first-hand. I know what I'm talking about. 

I'm giving you REAL science. You're giving me nonsense. 

I'm done with this thread. Continue on as you wish.

----------


## donnay

> I've worked with these diseases first-hand. I know what I'm talking about. 
> 
> I'm giving you REAL science. You're giving me nonsense. 
> 
> I'm done with this thread. Continue on as you wish.


Okie Dokie.  I know Vitamin D (which is actually a hormone) is more powerful than any vaccine.  But, of course, according to you that is just sheer nonsense. 




Dr. Joe Prendergast, M.D. shares an extensive list of major medical studies that show how since 1921 medical doctors have been discovering that vitamin D and sunlight can help to fight and cure nearly every human disease – ranging from influenza, osteoporosis, tuberculosis, and over 17 types of cancer. Learn why Dr. Prendergast considered Vitamin D the body’s best medicine in this short 8-minute video.

Germans found that Vitamin D increases the immune system by 3-5 times and is BETTER than any vaccine at helping the immune system beat the h5n1 (bird flu) virus. See 2:20

Research from PubMed: In 1981, R. Edgar Hope-Simpson proposed that a ‘seasonal stimulus’ intimately associated with solar radiation explained the remarkable seasonality of epidemic influenza. Solar radiation triggers robust seasonal vitamin D production in the skin; vitamin D deficiency is common in the winter, and activated vitamin D, 1,25(OH)2D, a steroid hormone, has profound effects on human immunity. 1,25(OH)2D acts as an immune system modulator, preventing excessive expression of inflammatory cytokines and increasing the ‘oxidative burst’ potential of macrophages. Perhaps most importantly, it dramatically stimulates the expression of potent anti-microbial peptides, which exist in neutrophils, monocytes, natural killer cells, and in epithelial cells lining the respiratory tract where they play a major role in protecting the lung from infection. Volunteers inoculated with live attenuated influenza virus are more likely to develop fever and serological evidence of an immune response in the winter. Vitamin D deficiency predisposes children to respiratory infections. Ultraviolet radiation (either from artificial sources or from sunlight) reduces the incidence of viral respiratory infections, as does cod liver oil (which contains vitamin D). An interventional study showed that vitamin D reduces the incidence of respiratory infections in children. We conclude that vitamin D, or lack of it, may be Hope-Simpson’s ‘seasonal stimulus’-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16959053?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSyst…$=relatedre  views&logdbfrom=pubmed

For more information please see my other video:
Vitamin D kills the flu virus so STOP BLOCKING OUR SUNLIGHT-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRmSV8OUzq0

----------


## donnay

*Merck Vaccine Fraud Story Buried by Media*

Dr. Mercola
*Mercola.com*
Mon, 23 Jul 2012 00:00 CDT

It was big news when court documents were unsealed revealing a whistleblower lawsuit accusing drug giant Merck of fraud and lying about the true efficacy of its mumps vaccine. Just about every media, large and small, picked it up and the world was abuzz about the hundreds of millions of dollars the lawsuit claimed Merck had defrauded from the U.S. government.

The Wall Street Journal published the story in the form of a Dow Jones news release written by Jon Kamp on June 22, 2012, and links to the story began popping up on social media like Facebook.

Then, suddenly, the link to the story no longer worked, and if anyone clicked on the link in social media, it would show up "page not found." Apparently the story had been pulled, and when search engines and Internet archives wouldn't even show it, it looked as if it had never been published on the Journal's site at all. It was erased nearly clean--except for a small stock-watcher's website, 4Traders.com, which did a good job of erasing it from its main site but didn't catch it in the cache.

The question is, why did the WSJ pull the story and try to erase as if it never existed when there were actual court documents for evidence?

Is it possible that an event that occurred on June 251 - three days after the story broke - could have influenced the story being pulled? On that day, the Wall Street Journal's "elite" network of CFOs from the world's top corporations met at the WSJ2. Merck is on that executive council3.

    My team attempted to connect with the WSJ on this issue, but as of this time, we have not yet received an answer as to why this article was pulled. 

Merck Accused of Falsifying Efficacy Studies and Lying about Effectiveness of Mumps Vaccine

    Merck has actually been slapped with two class-action lawsuits over their mumps vaccine (which is part of the trivalent measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine). The first, which was initially filed in 2010, was unsealed late last month.

    Two former Merck virologists, Stephen Krahling and Joan Wlochowski, claim they witnessed first-hand the improper testing and falsification of data that was done to hide the fact that the vaccine has significantly declined in effectiveness4.

    By artificially inflating the efficacy, Merck was able to maintain its monopoly over the mumps vaccine market - and that is the main point of contention of the second class-action lawsuit, filed by Chatom Primary Care5.

    According to Courthouse News Service6:

        "Merck has known for a decade that its mumps vaccine is "far less effective" than it tells the government, and it falsified test results and sold millions of doses of "questionable efficacy," flooding and monopolizing the market... Chatom says in its antitrust complaint that Merck falsely claims its mumps vaccine is 95 percent effective. That claim "deterred and excluded competing manufacturers," who would enter the risky and expensive vaccine market only if they believed they could craft a better product...

        Merck is the only manufacturer licensed by the FDA to sell the mumps vaccine in United States, and if it could not show that the vaccine was 95 percent effective, it risked losing its lucrative monopoly...

        That's why Merck found it critically important to keep claiming such a high efficacy rate, the complaint states. And, Chatom claims, that's why Merck went to great lengths, including "manipulating its test procedures and falsifying the test results," to prop up the bogus figure, though it knew that the attenuated virus from which it created the vaccine had been altered over the years during the manufacturing process, and that the quality of the vaccine had degraded as a result." 

How Merck Faked and Manipulated Vaccine Trials to Achieve Desired Results

    According to these two lawsuits, Merck began a sham testing program in the late 1990's to hide the declining efficacy of the vaccine. The objective of the fraudulent trials was to "report efficacy of 95 percent or higher regardless of the vaccine's true efficacy."

    According to Krahling and Wlochowski's complaint, they were threatened with jail were they to alert the FDA to the fraud being committed. The sham testing program was initially referred to as "Protocol 007," the Chatom anti-trust claim states. Suzanne Humphries recently wrote an excellent summary for GreenMedInfo.com7, explaining in layman's terms how the tests were manipulated8.

    Here's a brief extract. For more, please refer to the original source article:

        "For the new testing method, the children's blood was tested for its ability to neutralize the virus using the vaccine strain virus, instead of the wild type strain that is much more infective, and the one that your children would most likely catch... But still it was not 95% effective. In order to make the blood pass the test, antibodies from rabbits was added. The addition of rabbit antibody increased the efficacy to 100%. But that was not the end, because the test has to be done on pre-vaccine blood and post-vaccine blood.

        Just the addition of rabbit antibody made the pre-vaccine blood go from 10% positive to 80% positive and that was such an obvious sign of foul play that yet another manipulation had to be made.

        The desired end result is to have very low pre-vaccine antibody and 95% or more post-vaccine efficacy as measured by antibody neutralization. So, yet one more change in procedure was made: The pre-vaccine tests were all redone... According to the Merck scientists, they did this by fabricating the "plaque" counts on the pre-vaccine blood samples, counting plaques that were not there. What this allowed was a mathematical dilution of the pre-vaccine positive blood counts." 

    This is a perfect example of how medical research can be manipulated to achieve desired results, and why it may be wise to question vaccine makers' study results. Clearly, there needs to be a truly independent review in the mix... As reported by the Courthouse News Service9:

        "Chatom claims that the falsification of test results occurred" with the knowledge, authority and approval of Merck's senior management." 

    While I do not advocate indiscriminately abstaining from all vaccines, I strongly encourage you to exercise a major dose of due diligence as vaccines can cause serious reactions that can have devastating consequences. I believe in informed consent and the freedom to choose. There can be little doubt anymore that drug companies are in it for the profits, and virtually no price seems too high for them when it comes to protecting their profit-making. 

When Words and Deeds Don't Match, which is Closer to the Truth?

    Forbes quoted a Merck spokesman saying10:

        "Nothing is more important to Merck than the safety and effectiveness of our vaccines and medicines and the people who use them.". 

    Really?

    Then WHY did they heavily promote Vioxx and keep it on the market until it had killed more than 60,000 people? I warned my readers that this pain killer might be a real killer for some people, five years before Merck made its $30 billion recall! Five years they let it go, and they undoubtedly would have kept it on the market longer had the lethal dangers not become so shockingly obvious to other scientists.

    After Vioxx came the HPV vaccine Gardasil - perhaps the most unnecessary vaccine ever created, and likely one of the most dangerous to boot. Merck claims their main concern is safety, yet ever since Gardasil's approval in 2006, reports of life-altering side effects and sudden deaths of otherwise healthy teenagers have stacked up into the thousands, and Merck has steadfastly refused to acknowledge or address these health risks.

    Gardasil appears to have one of the highest risk to benefit ratios of any vaccine on the market, and India even halted Merck's post-licensing trials of the vaccine after four young participants died, yet Merck has the gall to claim that nothing is more important to them than safety. Give me a break... Actions speak louder than words, and Merck has a long paper trail of litigation highlighting the company's questionable ethics. 

More Censored News: MMR Vaccine Caused Autism, Italian Court Rules

    These two lawsuits couldn't come at a more precarious time for Merck, as the Italian Health Ministry recently conceded the MMR vaccine caused autism in a now nine-year old boy. As a result, a court in Rimini, Italy has awarded the family a 15-year annuity totaling 174,000 Euros (just under $220,000), plus reimbursement for court costs, ruling that the boy "has been damaged by irreversible complications due to vaccination (prophylaxis trivalent MMR)."

    According to The Daily Mail, a British paper11:

        "Judge Lucio Ardigo, awarding compensation to the family... said it was 'conclusively established' that Valentino had suffered from an 'autistic disorder associated with medium cognitive delay' and his illness, as Dr Barboni stated, was linked to receiving the jab. Lawyer Mr Ventaloro explained yesterday: 'This is very significant for Britain which uses, and has used, an MMR vaccine with the same components as the one given to Valentino.

        'It is wrong for governments and their health authorities to exert strong pressure on parents to take children for the MMR jab while ignoring that this vaccine can cause autism and linked conditions.'

        Claudio Simion, a leading member of the lobby group Association for Freedom of Choice in Vaccination (Comilva), adds: 'The Rimini judgment is vitally important for children everywhere. The numbers with autism are growing. It is a terrible thing that the authorities turn a blind eye to the connection between the MMR vaccination and this illness.'" 

    This vaccine-news story was not picked up by a single US media outlet when it happened! Why? Could it be because the US government, which is brimming with paid-off industry shills, is hellbent on protecting the vaccination program? Not because it's a marvelous panacea that promotes optimal health and longevity and can be defended with raw facts and first-class science, but because it's a major profit center, both for the vaccine makers and for those whose pockets are lined with Big Pharma bribes. 

U.S. Varicella Vaccination Program Also Found to be a Total Flop

    In related news, a recent review of the varicella (chickenpox) vaccination program in the US concluded that the vaccine efficacy had declined well below 80 percent by of 2002. Furthermore, the varicella vaccine has:

        Not proven to be cost-effective
        Increased the incidence of shingles
        Failed to provide long-term protection from the disease it targets―chicken pox―and
        Is less effective than the natural immunity that existed in the general population before the vaccine

    The damning news was published in May in the journal Vaccine12, and lends additional support to the idea that the vaccine program is based on financial interests, not health, as serious side effects are routinely ignored and ineffective and/or harmful products continue to be used.

    The information was gathered from a review of chicken pox and shingles statistics in the years since the vaccine was introduced. The researchers point out that although statistics showed shingles rates increased after the vaccine, "CDC authorities still claimed" that no increase had occurred. The authors also state that the CDC not only ignored the natural boost in immunity to the community that occurred with wild chickenpox, as opposed to the vaccine, but also ignored the "rare serious events following varicella vaccination" as well as the increasing rates of shingles among adults:

        "In the prelicensure era, 95% of adults experienced natural chickenpox (usually as children) - these cases were usually benign and resulted in long-term immunity. Varicella vaccination is less effective than the natural immunity that existed in prevaccine communities. Universal varicella vaccination has not proven to be cost-effective as increased herpes zoster [shingles] morbidity has disproportionately offset cost savings associated with reductions in varicella disease. Universal varicella vaccination has failed to provide long-term protection from VZV disease." 

Get Informed Before You Vaccinate Yourself or Your Family

    Stories such as these underscore the importance to take control of your own health, and that of your children. It's simply not wise to blindly depend on the information coming directly from the vaccine makers' PR departments, or from federal health officials and agencies that are mired in conflicts of interest with industry...

    No matter what vaccination choices you make for yourself or your family, there is a basic human right to be fully informed about all risks of medical interventions and pharmaceutical products, like vaccines, and have the freedom to refuse if you conclude the benefits do not outweigh the risks for you or your child.

    Unfortunately, the business partnership between government health agencies and vaccine manufacturers is too close and is getting out of hand. There is a lot of discrimination against Americans, who want to be free to exercise their human right to informed consent when it comes to making voluntary decisions about which vaccines they and their children use.

    We cannot allow that to continue.

    It's vitally important to know and exercise your legal rights and to understand your options when it comes to using vaccines and prescription drugs. For example, your doctor is legally obligated to provide you with the CDC Vaccine Information Statement (VIS) sheet and discuss the potential symptoms of side effects of the

    vaccination(s) you or your child receive BEFORE vaccination takes place. If someone giving a vaccine does not do this, it is a violation of federal law. Furthermore, the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 also requires doctors and other vaccine providers to:

        Keep a permanent record of all vaccines given and the manufacturer's name and lot number
        Write down serious health problems, hospitalizations, injuries and deaths that occur after vaccination in the patient's permanent medical record
        File an official report of all serious health problems, hospitalizations, injuries and deaths following vaccination to the federal Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS)

    If a vaccine provider fails to inform, record or report, it is a violation of federal law. It's important to get all the facts before making your decision about vaccination; and to understand that you have the legal right to opt out of using a vaccine that you do not want you or your child to receive. At present, all 50 states allow a medical exemption to vaccination (medical exemptions must be approved by an M.D. or D.O.); 48 states allow a religious exemption to vaccination; and 18 states allow a personal, philosophical or conscientious belief exemption to vaccination.

    However, vaccine exemptions are under attack in a number of states, and it's in everyone's best interest to protect the right to make informed, voluntary vaccination decisions. 

What You Can Do to Make a Difference

    While it seems "old-fashioned," the only truly effective actions you can take to protect the right to informed consent to vaccination and expand your rights under the law to make voluntary vaccine choices, is to get personally involved with your state legislators and the leaders in your community.

    THINK GLOBALLY, ACT LOCALLY.

    Mass vaccination policies are made at the federal level but vaccine laws are made at the state level, and it is at the state level where your action to protect your vaccine choice rights will have the greatest impact.

    Signing up to be a user of NVIC's free online Advocacy Portal at www.NVICAdvocacy.org gives you access to practical, useful information to help you become an effective vaccine choice advocate in your own community. You will get real-time Action Alerts about what you can do if there are threats to vaccine exemptions in your state. With the click of a mouse or one touch on a Smartphone screen you will be put in touch with YOUR elected representatives so you can let them know how you feel and what you want them to do. Plus, when national vaccine issues come up, you will have all the information you need to make sure your voice is heard. So please, as your first step, sign up for the NVIC Advocacy Portal.

    Right now, in California, the personal belief exemption is under attack by Pharma-funded medical trade organizations and public health officials trying to get a bill (AB 2109) passed that would require parents to get a medical doctor's signature to file an exemption for personal religious and conscientious beliefs. Watch NVIC's 90-second public service message and learn more about what you can do if you are a California resident. 

Internet Resources

    To learn more about vaccines, I encourage you to visit the following web pages on the National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) website at www.NVIC.org:

        NVIC Memorial for Vaccine Victims: View descriptions and photos of children and adults, who have suffered vaccine reactions, injuries and deaths. If you or your child experiences an adverse vaccine event, please consider posting and sharing your story here.
        If You Vaccinate, Ask 8 Questions: Learn how to recognize vaccine reaction symptoms and prevent vaccine injuries.
        Vaccine Freedom Wall: View or post descriptions of harassment by doctors or state officials for making independent vaccine choices.
        Vaccine Ingredient Calculator (VIC): Find out just how much aluminum, mercury and other ingredients are in the vaccines your doctor is recommending for you or your child.
        Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) on MedAlerts. Search the government's VAERS database to find out what kinds of vaccine reactions, injuries and deaths have been reported by patients and heath care workers giving vaccines.

﻿Find a Doctor Who will Listen to Your Concerns﻿

    Last but not least, if your pediatrician or doctor refuses to provide medical care to you or your child unless you agree to get vaccines you don't want, I strongly encourage you to have the courage to find another doctor. Harassment, intimidation, and refusal of medical care is becoming the modus operandi of the medical establishment in an effort to punish those patients and parents, who become truly educated about health and vaccination and want to make vaccine choices instead of being forced to follow risky one-size-fits-all vaccine policies.

    If you are treated with disrespect or are harassed in any way by a doctor (or government official), do not engage in an unproductive argument. You may want to contact an attorney, your elected state representatives or local media, if you or your child are threatened.

    That said, there is hope.

    At least 15 percent of young doctors recently polled admit that they're starting to adopt a more individualized approach to vaccinations in direct response to the vaccine safety concerns of parents. It is good news that there is a growing number of smart young doctors, who prefer to work as partners with parents in making personalized vaccine decisions for children, including delaying vaccinations or giving children fewer vaccines on the same day or continuing to provide medical care for those families, who decline use of one or more vaccines.

    So take the time to locate and connect with a doctor who treats you with compassion and respect and is willing to work with you to do what is right for your child, and isn't just competing for government incentives designed to increase vaccination rates at any cost.

----------


## donnay

*Watch out, Africa, Melinda is coming!*

Jon Rappoport
*Natural News*
July 24, 2012

Melinda Gates has just unrolled her new program to reduce population in Africa and South Asia. Speaking at the Family Planning Summit in London, the other half of the Gates-Messiah operation pledged to bring contraception to millions of women and girls in the Third World.

Flying under the radar; however, is the partnership between The Gates Foundation and drug giant, Pfizer, and therein lies the dirty little secret.

The method of choice to prevent births? Injectable Depo-Provera, long known as a highly dangerous drug. It actually carries a black-box warning on its label, stating that severe bone loss is a consequence of its use. It also thins the vaginal lining, and research is ongoing to investigate the possibility that it increases the risk of breast cancer.

Here is the relevant black-box quote: “Women who use Depro-Provera Contraceptive Injection may lose significant bone mineral density. Bone loss is greater with increased duration of use and may not be completely reversible.”

Change.org and several other groups are petitioning the US Congress to cut all federal funding for Depo-Provera.

Despite cheerful PR about education of women on the benefits of contraception, and the need for informed consent, these programs have a way of turning into something else out in the field, where the needle meets the body.

Depo-Provera also happens to be a drug of choice for the “chemical castration” of male sex offenders. That fact testifies to its powerful impact on the body.

Nobody at the London Family Planning Summit was talking about Depo-Provera and its severe effects. The conference sponsors, the UN Population Fund, the USAID, and The Gates Foundation, are far more interested in population control.

If millions of girls and women in Africa and South Asia are crippled by the Depo-Provera injections, well, that’s just collateral damage. Several years from now, we’ll no doubt see studies claiming an unexplained epidemic of osteoporosis in the Third World, which will lead to the application of some other highly toxic drug as the treatment of choice.

Pfizer, the maker of Depo-Provera, happens to make such a drug: Fablyn (Lasofoxifene). So far, the FDA has withheld approval, but the EU gave it the green light in 2009. Fablyn has a serious problem. It causes blood clots in veins, which can be life-threatening.

Watch out, Africa. Melinda’s coming with Pfizer. You should ask her why she doesn’t supply money to clean up contaminated water supplies, install rudimentary sanitation, provide real nutrition, and help restore stolen fertile land to local farmers.

But you see, those actions aren’t in line with the elite agenda. They make things better. The agenda is dedicated to Worse.

Sources:

http://www.reuters.com

http://www.change.org

http://www.path.org/news/pr120711-depo-uniject.php

----------


## RonRules

Article TODAY in Forbes Magazine (not some loser rag like Natural News)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensa...c-in-70-years/

*Anti-Vaccine Movement Causes The Worst Whooping Cough Epidemic In 70 Years*

The great northwest of the U.S. is known for its natural beauty.  It’s also a high-tech region with a highly educated public – not exactly the kind of place one would expect to fall for the anti-science rhetoric of the anti-vaccine movement.

But it has. * The anti-vaxxers have convinced a frighteningly high number of parents in Washington State to withhold vaccines from their children.*  A story in The Seattle Times last year reported that “Washington [state] parents are *choosing not to vaccinate their kindergartners at a rate higher than anywhere else in the country.”*

This despite the fact that the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation (formed by the founder of Microsoft, which is headquartered in Seattle) is one of the world’s leading sponsors of vaccine research.

When the vaccination rates drop, everyone becomes more vulnerable to infectious diseases.  When more than 90% of the population is vaccinated, we have “herd immunity” – this means the disease can’t spread because there aren’t enough susceptible people in the community.  So the high rate of vaccine refusal in Washington makes it easier for whooping cough (and other diseases) to spread.

The media has been complicit in spreading some of anti-vaccine misinformation.  Sometimes it comes straight from the media itself, such as the credulous, anti-science, anti-vax CBS reporter Sharyl Attkisson. Other times it comes from talk shows, magazines, or even airline advertisements that provide a platform for anti-vax celebrity doctors such as *Jay Gordon (who gained fame as Jenny McCarthy’s son’s doctor)* and “Dr. Bob” Sears, who has published his own “alternative” vaccine schedule in a book filled with anti-vaccine nonsense.  These characters continue to claim, at every chance they get, that vaccines cause autism (as Gordon has said, repeatedly), or that they cause other harms, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.  They use their medical degrees and their faux concern “for the children” to frighten parents into keeping their kids unvaccinated.

And now we learn that the U.S. is in the midst of the *worst whooping cough epidemic in 70 years*.  One of the most hard-hit states is Washington, which the CDC just announced (on 20 July) has *suffered 2,520 cases so far this year, a 1300% increase over last year.*  This is the highest number of cases reported in Washington since 1942.  This plot of the number of cases this year compared to last year shows the dramatic rise in infections:


Making things worse, it seems, is an increase in cases among children aged 13-14.  Children get a booster shot at age 11-12, but the new outbreak indicates that the effectiveness of the booster may not last very long.  The dramatic increase in whooping cough this year also suggests that* the bacterium that causes it, Bordetella pertussis, is mutating to make the vaccine less effective.*  Nevertheless, the CDC emphasizes:

“Vaccination continues to be the single most effective strategy to reduce morbidity and mortality caused by pertussis. Vaccination of pregnant women and contacts of infants is recommended to protect infants too young to be vaccinated.”

This good advice is seriously undermined when misinformed doctors such as “Dr. Bob” Sears directly advise pregnant women not to get the whooping cough vaccine, as he did in the Huffington Post. (Hint: it’s a good rule to be very skeptical of celebrity doctors who go by their first name.)

I should also point out that whooping cough is a national problem, not just Washington State’s.  The U.S. has had over 17,000 cases this year, putting it on track for the worst year since 1959.  The highest rate of infection in the nation is in Wisconsin (which has also been hit hard by anti-vaccine effects), followed by Washington and Montana. *10 deaths have been reported*, mostly in infants who were too young to be vaccinated.  *For all this, we can thank the anti-vaccination movement.*

Typical Anti-Vaxer comment below the article:
"joe99 1 day ago:  *Salzberg, you are as dumb as a rock.* I’m shocked Forbes hasn’t pulled this article after Mr. Thomas made you look like a total bafoon. Keep writing. You are the best thing the anti-vaccination movement could ask for."

These Anti-Vaxers are going to kill us all!

----------


## angelatc

> These Anti-Vaxers are going to kill us all!


They're going to kill their children. Darwinism doesn't have a heart.

The only problem that I see is that the government will use it as evidence that people are indeed too stupid to take care of themselves, and use that excuse to pass more laws.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Article TODAY in Forbes Magazine (not some loser rag like Natural News)
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensa...c-in-70-years/
> 
> *Anti-Vaccine Movement Causes The Worst Whooping Cough Epidemic In 70 Years*
> 
> These Anti-Vaxers are going to kill us all!


Correlation is not causation.  I'm not an expert and I don't really have much of a stake in this debate (other than liberty in medicine), but the above study only considers one variable.  There will have to be more studies before your claim can be fully substantiated.

----------


## RonRules

> There will have to be more studies before your claim can be fully substantiated.


Africa.

----------


## GeorgiaAvenger

Everyone knows you need to get a tetanus shot after the incident as well. Beforehand is just preventive. 

None of these conspiracy theories ever explain how these shots cause cancer, autism, or whatever BS it spouts out. It just cites or misinterprets a nutjob study.

----------


## angelatc

> Correlation is not causation.  I'm not an expert and I don't really have much of a stake in this debate (other than liberty in medicine), but the above study only considers one variable.  There will have to be more studies before your claim can be fully substantiated.


I actually agree with you here.  if this is true, then somebody should chart the areas where the the anti-vaxxers have had the most success, and make some sort of prediction where the next outbreak(s) will occur.

----------


## GeorgiaAvenger

http://www.tvacres.com/medical_supplies_granny.htm

Daisy Moses, a.k.a. "Granny Clampett" (Irene Ryan) was a backwoods doctor from the Ozarks who concocted all sorts of pultices, and potions to cure the hill folk.

Granny Clampett - THE BEVERLY HILLBILLIES

However, when she moved to Beverly Hills, her unusual medical procedures got her into trouble with the establishment.

Granny's medical bag contained all sorts of wonder drugs, including:

        Buckeye
        Snakewort
        Dogbane
        Horsemint
        Newt eye
        Cat hair

Granny also had a still where she brewed a batch of what she called her "Rheumatiz medicine." On episode No. 197 "From Rags to Riches" Doctor Granny attempts to perform history's first surgical head transplant when Mr. Drysdale gets hurt. See also CHEMICALS, DRUGS & POTIONS: "Granny's Love Potions"

----------


## angelatc

> Everyone knows you need to get a tetanus shot after the incident as well. Beforehand is just preventive. 
> 
> None of these conspiracy theories ever explain how these shots cause cancer, autism, or whatever BS it spouts out. It just cites or misinterprets a nutjob study.


My husband is convinced that the internet will do more harm to civilization than TV ever did, for this very reason.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> My husband is convinced that the internet will do more harm to civilization than TV ever did, for this very reason.


I dunno about that.  People have been believing ridiculous things they see and hear in the media for many generations and acting stupidly on it.  Stossel made a career out of reporting about it.

----------


## donnay

> They're going to kill their children. Darwinism doesn't have a heart.
> 
> The only problem that I see is that the government will use it as evidence that people are indeed too stupid to take care of themselves, and use that excuse to pass more laws.


You know Angela, you seriously are ridiculous.  My children are healthy and happy, and intelligent to boot.  But you keep spouting that establishments BS, if it makes you feel safe.   It's people like you and that nimrod Ronrules that believe all the BS lies, that allow government to run roughshod over the rest of us.

----------


## donnay

> Everyone knows you need to get a tetanus shot after the incident as well. Beforehand is just preventive. 
> 
> None of these conspiracy theories ever explain how these shots cause cancer, autism, or whatever BS it spouts out. It just cites or misinterprets a nutjob study.


Look up SV-40, that is Simian Virus 40 mixed into the polio vaccine.

----------


## donnay

> I actually agree with you here.  if this is true, then somebody should chart the areas where the the anti-vaxxers have had the most success, and make some sort of prediction where the next outbreak(s) will occur.


What are you going to do when a Bioweapon is released or accidentally released?  You going to run kicking and screaming that some anti-vaxer did it?

----------


## donnay

> My husband is convinced that the internet will do more harm to civilization than TV ever did, for this very reason.


No, read books like:

Dr. Mary's Monkey by Edward T. Haslam  
Vaccine-A by Gary Matsumoto

For starters.

----------


## libertyjam

From comments:

Pat Thomas 1 day ago

(Australia ends free pertussis vaccines for adults because ‘cocooning’ is ineffective in protecting kids):

“PARENTS across Australia will no longer receive free whooping cough vaccinations because it is not effective in protecting newborns from the potentially deadly illness, a parliamentary committee has heard.”

“The PBAC, which is totally independent and very expert, has determined that there is no clinical effectiveness of this strategy,” Professor Brook said.

He said this had made it clear the cocooning strategy should not be continued.

“So all jurisdictions who have been in this program will be effectively ceasing the cocooning strategy as of the end of June this year.”

“There has been a national committee meet to look at this and to make decisions on the basis of the best scientific evidence available … the evidence is that the strategy has not been effective.”

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news...-1226350174856

----------


## libertyjam

Anne Dachel 1 day ago

I would like to point out to Mr. Salzberg that other news reports challenge his claim:
USA TODAY story May 10, 2012: http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...ton/54884494/1
“[CDC spokeswoman Alison] Patti emphasized that pertussis isn’t spreading because of an anti-vaccine movement. Among possible reasons for the recent spike are that diagnoses in teens and adults are getting better and doctors are doing a better job with reporting, she added
“Health officials say the disease tends to return in three-to-five-year cycles.”
NBC News story “Whooping cough shot may wear off after 3 years”
http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2011...r-3-years?lite
“Young children who receive vaccinations against whooping cough are not fully protected against the disease three to six years after their shots, a new study suggests.
“Currently, kids receive five doses of the pertussis vaccine, with the final injection given between ages four and six. A pertussis booster shot is recommended for adolescents.”
Five doses are not enough? We need boosters every three years for the rest of our lives?
How does all this get blamed on the “anti-vaccine movement”?
Anne Dachel, Media editor: Age of Autism

----------


## libertyjam

Pat Thomas 1 day ago

Here’s a collection of mainstream news stories and studies which prove the vaccine is causing the bacteria to mutate – AND – that the overwhelming majority who contract WC are fully vaccinated:

http://www.facebook.com/WhoopingCoug...ngMattersWorse

Or

http://www.dailypaul.com/167931/a-co...h-vaccine-myth

----------


## libertyjam

(Mainstream study documents vaccine causing mutation, spreading of whooping cough):

Acellular pertussis vaccination enhances B. parapertussis colonization

“….vaccination led to a 40-fold enhancement of B. parapertussis colonization in the lungs of mice…..these data suggest that the vaccine may be contributing to the observed rise in whooping cough incidence over the last decade by promoting B. parapertussis infection.”

http://www.cidd.psu.edu/research/syn...-parapertussis

----------


## libertyjam

Pat Thomas 1 day ago

The overwhelming majority of those who contract this disease are fully vaccinated. I have dozens and dozens of mainstream news stories to back this up – including the following:

(Vaccine failure in NY):

“179 reported cases in Suffolk County, NY – according to Suffolk health officials, all those affected had been immunized in the past.”

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local...01503801720375

----------


## libertyjam

(North Carolinians confused as to why all 103 cases fully vaxed and no unvaccinated kids got it):

(Excerpt): … (the) outbreak…has grown to include more than 103 cases…..SHAPLEY-QUINN SAID there’s no instance of a child who had not been vaccinated getting pertussis….

(SHOT DOWN !!!) Board member Tony Rose had asked for information about the number of students who don’t get vaccinations because of religious or other reasons. “I think it’s 15 kids in your entire system (who) have an exemption for medical or religious reasons,” Shapley-Quinn said. None of the pertussis cases involved those students, she said.

Bass said the system has a “really good vaccination rate,” which “raises questions about the vaccine itself” and its effectiveness in preventing the disease.

http://www.thetimesnews.com/news/sch...nt-health.html

----------


## libertyjam

(Vaccine has caused bacteria to mutate, rendering vaccine useless):

Whooping cough strain now immune to vaccine – -

“The bacteria that causes whooping cough has mutated, eroding the protection provided by the vaccine now given to children, scientists warned yesterday. Our findings suggest that the use of the acellular vaccine may be one factor contributing to these genetic changes.”

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/new...-1225828959714

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> Pat Thomas 1 day ago
> 
> Here’s a collection of mainstream news stories and studies which prove the vaccine is causing the bacteria to mutate – AND – that the overwhelming majority who contract WC are fully vaccinated:
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/WhoopingCoug...ngMattersWorse
> 
> Or
> 
> http://www.dailypaul.com/167931/a-co...h-vaccine-myth


+rep

Good info, libertyjam and there will be more to come.

----------


## libertyjam

Pat Thomas 1 day ago

(Proof that the vaccine is CAUSING outbreaks and making cases more severe):

(Excerpt): Microbiologists from the University of NSW have found variants of the pertussis bacteria with a particular genetic signature have increased to 86 per cent of all samples taken from infected people after a continuing disease epidemic began in 2008. Although the strains were present in Australia as early as 2000, they accounted for only 31 per cent of all samples collected between 2000 and 2007 – suggesting they have flourished alongside the current vaccine…. An acellular vaccine – introduced in Australia in 1997 – appeared to have promoted the spread of these variants, Dr Lan said, which overseas authorities had linked to “higher virulence on the basis of hospitalisation and case mortality data”.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/healt...320-1vibp.html

----------


## libertyjam

shawnsiegel 1 day ago

Vaccines do, indeed, sometimes, but not always, preclude the display of the particular diseases, but that is not necessarily a good sign. It as likely indicates a shutdown of the immune system’s ability to respond as it does actual protection from the disease, and with that particular “effectiveness” come the chronic illnesses and autoimmune disorders so commonly seen as vaccine damage but so rarely seen discussed in the mainstream.

We are vaccine guinea pigs. The National Institute of Health defines the final stage of clinical trial as the post-licensure administration of the product to the general public. That is, the mass use of vaccines is what finally determines the actual degree of risk, as the real world reported adverse reactions accumulate. Yet, the industry presupposes them safe, meaning, in vaccine lingo, the benefits outweigh the risks, despite the fact that they do not yet know the reality of those risks. That is a terribly circular, dangerous and deceptive protocol.

Even if you swallow the tripe of herd immunity as a valid means of societal protection, it, too, is meaningless if the true risks of vaccination are not known.

----------


## libertyjam

Jeff Simon 1 day ago

Yup, it’s the great unvaxed masses. That has to be it. There can be no other rational, logical conclusion. Now, we can win this argument. Put to bed any notion that we, the great vaccine defenders, can lay to rest any notion that we, and only we, occupy the scientific high-ground. And finally saturate the countryside with vaccines. Thereby, removing all human suffering. End poverty. Repair our ruptured economy. Bring peace to mother earth . . .

Hold on a sec, I need to stuff a few GMO snacks in my mouth. There that’s better. Where was I? Oh yeah. . .

All we need is to make sure that 75% . . . No, 82% . . . No, 88.6987%, Right? No, no, no, it’s 90%. Yep, definitely 90%! Yep, that’s it. No, wait, it’s higher than that. I know I have that study around here somewhere. Yea, that study that actually tested all other conceivable factors, performed a detailed analysis, replicated the analysis among multiple populations and proved conclusively that herd immunity can be conferred in the population if 95% of it is vaccinated.

Where is that study? . . .

Oh, yeah . . . *It doesn’t exist!*

Quick question: Steven, (can I call you Dr. Steve?) No? OK, Dr. Salzberg it is. (Hey, you’ve earned it.) Is this article some form of new esoteric brand of comedy? Are you moonlighting as a PR agent for Merck? (No question that Forbes has some financial tie with Merck given their whitewash of the Mumps vaccine whistle-blower suit).

I mean, don’t get me wrong. I really enjoyed this article. It’s such rich zealotry. Lush theater. It’s like watching the guy playing Alan Rickman in the first Die Hard. You play the psuedo-science heavy with such vigor.

Another quick question: Now that you have dropped the hammer of silence on Dr. Bob, and Dr. Jay Gordon and I can stop listening to them now, when do I ignore the hundreds (heck, it may be thousands) of peer-reviewed studies published in mainstream medical journals that draw a link between vaccines and harm and lack of efficacy?

Overwhelming evidence you say? In favor of vaccine safety? You could take the research questioning vaccine safety and efficacy and paper the walls and floors of the Forbes headquarters and you still would have enough paper left over to cover the American Academy of Pediatrics headquarters in one of those tents they use to fumigate for wood-destroying insects.

So, what happens if you have a real scientific controversy? Vaccines are safe and effective. No their not. You test. You don’t reverse presumption and mandate vaccination without limit. You test. And test again. You err on the side of under-prescribing.

Truth is we don’t have comprehensive forensic data on the outbreak. We do know that there are a TON of vaccinated kids with Whooping Cough. Vaccines either work, or they don’t. Don’t mistake that fishbowl you have your head wedged in for the Magic Mirror On The Wall.

And leave the truth-telling to those of us who actually believe in the empirical and observable, and not what we are paid to believe by Big Money.

----------


## libertyjam

Nvic FactCheck 1 day ago

This blog post is completely out of step with what has been broadly reported in the media and by CDC about the potential cause of recent Pertussis outbreaks. Just today Wall Street Journal has CDC on-the-record acknowledging that they do not know the cause of the outbreak and that it does not appear to be related to a drop in vaccination rates. “Washington state has one of the highest exemption rates in the nation. But the CDC said that does not appear to be a major factor in the outbreak, since most of the youngsters who got sick had been vaccinated.” http://tinyurl.com/c3lchvy

This article in The Seattle Times, dated July 19, expounds on the research looking at the current outbreak in Washington State. “Vaccines have done a good job in protecting against pertussis, but our vaccines are not perfect,”  Schuchet [CDC] said during a Thursday teleconference with state Health Secretary Mary Selecky. “They don’t last as long as we would like them to.” http://blogs.seattletimes.com/today/...officials-say/

As to vaccine exemptions for DTaP and Tdap in Washington State, it was reported by Dr. Debolt in the National Vaccine Advisory Committee (Health & Human Services) June 2012 meeting, “that Washington continues to have high vaccination rates and vaccine exemptions for school age children overall were only 4%. With regard to Tdap 6th grade vaccination requirements, exemptions were reported to be in decline – meaning higher vaccine uptake.” http://tinyurl.com/7vl9scz

The fact that Pertussis vaccine immunity is short lived is not news to CDC. A similar 2010 California study, examining cases in that state’s outbreak, also found that the majority of cases of pertussis/whooping cough were among those fully vaccinated and most cases occurred in children under age 12. Despite the attempt made here to place the blame on unvaccinated children, these findings might lead one to conclude that this vaccine has simply failed, in that it often is not capable of producing even short term immunity to Pertussis.

In the California study it was noted, [Witt had expected to see the illnesses center around unvaccinated kids, knowing they are more vulnerable to the disease."We started dissecting the data. What was very surprising was the majority of cases were in fully vaccinated children. That's what started catching our attention," said Witt.] ] http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8320TM20120403

For a commentary on Whooping Cough Outbreaks and Vaccine Failures go to; http://www.nvic.org/NVIC-Vaccine-New...-Failures.aspx

National Vaccine Information Center –

----------


## libertyjam

Nvic FactCheck 1 day ago

Mr. Salzberg, if you are going to make claims that NVIC is a “hotbed of misinformation” could you please be specific as to what “misinformation” you would be referring to? As to “standing by” your article, I think your readers have done a very thorough job in exposing the “misinformation” and false claims therein. Your own report actually furthers the argument that the unvaccinated are not to blame for this outbreak as you state:

“Making things worse, it seems, is an increase in cases among children aged 13-14. Children get a booster shot at age 11-12, but the new outbreak indicates that the effectiveness of the booster may not last very long. The dramatic increase in whooping cough this year also suggests that the bacterium that causes it, Bordetella pertussis, is mutating to make the vaccine less effective. ”

As to NVIC’s credibility, here is a link to our Mission and Work. http://www.nvic.org/about.aspx

Here is the list of our co-founder and President, Barbara Loe Fisher’s, government and review panel appointments.
Appointments:
* Vaccine Safety Writing Group, National Vaccine Advisory Committee, U.S. Department of Health & Human Services (2009-2010)
* Consumers United for Evidence Based Health Care, The Cochrane Collaboration – U.S. (August 2006 — present)
* Blue Ribbon Panel on Vaccine Safety, Centers for Disease Control (June 3-4, 2004)
* Vaccine Policy Analysis Collaborative: A U.S. Government Experiment in Public Engagement (2002-2005)
* Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee of the Food and Drug Administration (1999-2003), U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
* Vaccine Safety Forum, Institute of Medicine, National Academy of Sciences (1995-1998)
* National Vaccine Advisory Committee (1988-1991), U.S. Department of Health and Human Services; Chairman, Subcommittee on Vaccine Adverse Events

Ms. Fisher’s full bio can be found at http://www.nvic.org/about/barbarafisherbio.aspx

----------


## Nickels

> I dunno about that.  People have been believing ridiculous things they see and hear in the media for many generations and acting stupidly on it.  Stossel made a career out of reporting about it.


and where is Stossel employed now?

----------


## donnay

*Vaccination 101: Why vaccines are useless, inefficient and dangerous*

by *Bob Livingston*

One of the most reported topics of the last several months is the predicted pandemic of H1N1, also known as swine flu. Government bureaucrats from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and World Health Organization (WHO) are almost gushing over the estimates of deaths to come from the disease.

Meanwhile, promises are made by U.S. Government spokespeople of a vaccine against swine flu that, they say, will help us to weather the coming storm. But vaccines aren’t the panacea Big Government would have you believe. Here are the facts:

Vaccines are useless because…

    Natural microbes (yeasts, mycobacteria, bacteria, viruses) are not enemies, but allies. They help restore our body’s health during the repair phase of a disease (Hamer’s German New Medicine).
    We create our own microbes using the smallest particles of living matter that exist inside our bodies. These bear various names—microzyma (Bechamp), bions (Reich) and somatids (Naessens).

Vaccines are ineffective because…

* They contain only artificial microbes that have been weakened and/or genetically modified that cannot prevent any disease.
    They shock and exhaust the immune system and stimulate the explosion of degenerative diseases such as AIDS and cancer. They systematically destroy human health.
    The efficacy of vaccines has never been proven scientifically. Their ineffectiveness becomes obvious with the need for repetitive inoculations and the appearance of diseases that vaccines were meant to prevent.*

Vaccines are dangerous because…

_Vaccinations stimulate and maintain individuals in a state of fear. In fact, we do not die of a disease, but from fear and exhaustion. The fear of microbes and illness knocks people out and vaccines finish them off.
    Vaccines are extremely harmful. Innumerable complications go from minor problems (allergies, eczema, otitis, asthma, behavior and learning disabilities) to major disorders (autism, epilepsy, diabetes, arthritis, paralysis, leukemia, encephalitis, chronic fatigue, multiple sclerosis, fibromyalgia, Alzheimer’s, Ebola, foetal malformations, Gulf War syndrome, Guillain Barre syndrome, Spanish flu, etc.) or even to death: Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS).
Receiving a vaccine is always devastating for the body. In fact, a vaccine is a witch’s brew made up of three types of ingredients: 1) A cocktail of microbes that have been artificially modified and often genetically recombined. 2) A purulent culture fluid composed of animal cells (chicken, mouse, sheep, monkey, cow) and human cells (blood, aborted fetuses) that are cancerous and contaminated (viruses, prions). 3) Preservatives and adjuvants that are in fact lethal poisons: Thimerosal (50 percent mercury), aluminum, formaldehyde, squalene, monosodium glutamate (MSG), aspartame, silicone, polysorbates, sorbitol and a long list of extremely harmful substances known for their brain and nerve toxicity.
    The content of vaccines is “Top Secret” and depends upon decisions taken by the military-industrial complex. The Ministry of Health of any country, the medical staff recommending and injecting them and the person receiving them cannot find out their exact composition or their true purpose. In fact, they serve as biological weapons of mass destruction for targeted populations—blacks, Asians, the poor, American Indians, handicapped, homosexuals and inhabitants of territories with valuable resources. They have been developed as perfect eugenic (killing undesirables) and mind control tools.
_
All vaccines are useless, inefficient and dangerous, without exception!

Key Points Concerning Vaccination (From Ghis, author of The Medical Mafia)

    The impending massive vaccination (2009) is the direct result of a pseudo-pandemic of swine flu (A-H1N1) officially declared by the United Nations (U.N.). The long-term ploy of the global elite is to reduce the world population to 500 million. The new vaccines contain an extremely vicious cocktail of avian, swine and human influenza viruses.
    Liquid crystals and nano-sized microchips may have been included into the vaccines to facilitate mind control at a distance.
    Vaccination is not a medical but a political decision. Its purpose is global population control. Vaccines can be used to eliminate undesirable individuals by repetitively weakening their health or by brutally killing them. The World Health Organization (WHO) makes all vaccine-related decisions. They are the U.N.’s Ministry of Health. Its decisions are imposed by force to all governments through the use of propaganda, harassment and threat.
    Vaccines are biological weapons of mass destruction. That is why research on vaccination first takes place in military laboratories. The first human guinea pigs are often soldiers and their families who are unconscious of being used as expendable test subjects.
    Qui bono? (Who benefits?) Vaccination brings in colossal profits to pharmaceutical companies and international banks. To vaccinate their populations, governments must borrow huge sums. The public debt skyrockets while the international bankers increase their grip on all valuable resources.
    The basic theory on microbes is false. Louis Pasteur was an impostor, a cheat and a liar. His experiments were falsified. The many scientists who have proven the beneficial role of microbes were ridiculed and punished. Any proof that went against the world elite’s best interests was systematically crushed. This situation is still going on today.
    There is an undeniable link between vaccine inoculation and the manifestation of an illness, even if it is difficult to prove. Doctors refuse to admit this link because they are afraid of retaliation.
    Vaccines induce permanent and hereditary modifications to the human genetic code. Short-term consequences are numerous (genetic malformations) while long-term effects are difficult to evaluate.
    Because of their neurotoxic effects, vaccines produce psychopaths, generating social violence and crime. This situation causes political unrest and the reinforcement of military and police control. It opens the door to the full implementation of an already legalized martial law.
    With the use of vaccination, the real sociopolitical problems remain hidden while techno-scientific pseudo-solutions are proposed. These are so complicated that most people are unable to understand the faulty assumptions on which they rest. Most people react by trusting the authorities and submitting without question.
    Vaccination keeps people powerless and dependent upon external authorities. As long as I behave as a sheep, there will be a shepherd to abuse me. The role of any government has always been that of a shepherd with his flock. His only purpose is to shear the sheep until there is no more wool, and then to lead them to the slaughterhouse, while pretending that it is for their own good.

“In reality, I am omnipotent and immortal. I need no vaccines, no doctors, nor governments. Compulsory vaccination is a gift that forces me to take the decision to get out of fear, disease and death once and for all.” Ghis (author of the book The Medical Mafia) www.personocratia.com

----------


## Working Poor

> This.
> 
> But the OP has a point... once herd immunity is compromised we can all find ourselves at risk.


So we are a "heard" are we sheep or cattle?

----------


## donnay

A Quick list on how these vaccines are concocted.

*Viral Vaccines*

*Measles* - grown in Chicken Eggs. Living viruses target the nerves immediately, travel up the spine (mostly), destroying Myelin and brain cells. One of the major causes of Autism.
*Polio* - grown in Monkey Kidneys.
*Chicken Pox* - grown in Human Embryonic Lung Cells, and Embryonic guinea pig cells. They are GENETICALLY ENGINEERED.
*HepB* - grown in Yeast (fermented) - purified for surface antigen (protein/DNA) - absorbed onto Aluminum.
The liver doesn't know this viral protein has been cleaved and can respond the same, swelling up, destroying liver cells. This has been bonded to Mercury to lodge in body tissue for slow release (up to 3 yrs).

*Bacterial Vaccines*

   (Diphtheria toxin, 2nd deadliest under Botulism, is added to force immune response to something dead)
*HIB (haemophilus influenzae)* - grown in Yeast (fermented yeast) - filtered - Aluminum added.
  Lives naturally in the human body, in the throat, passed from mother to newborn. (polysaccharide vaccine of membrane-sugars)
*Pertussis (DTP)*- grown in Nutrient Medium - killed with formaldehyde - absorbed onto aluminum phosphate.   (random deadly batches lacking antitoxin for Diphtheria toxin and Tetanus toxin)
*(MPSV4) Meningococcal* - Lives naturally in the human body. (polysaccharide vaccine)
*(PCV) Streptococcus Pneumoniae* - Lives naturally in the human body.
  (polysaccaride vaccine)
*Diphtheria* - grown in Bovine nutrients (cow) - cross-linked protiens by formaldehyde for slow release - absorbed onto aluminum.
  Second most Toxic bacterial toxins. One of major causes of Autism because the amount of Antitoxin added can never cover the range, and is measured by MLD (minimum lethal dosage), SEE Ehrlich's phenomenon
*Tetanus* - grown in Casein (milk/cheese) - killed with Formaldehyde - absorbed onto aluminum phosphate.
  3rd most Toxic bacterial toxin is added to Whooping Cough vaccines, and is a major cause of SIDS. This paralyzed my 4 year old son for 3 days and took him weeks to walk normally, from his first DPT shot for Whooping Cough in 1984. SEE Ehrlich's phenomenon
 SEE Vaccine Recipes (PDR)

Researchers call Vaccines, "Designer Diseases."

http://www.trackingvaccinations.com/#MLD

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## heavenlyboy34

> and where is Stossel employed now?


 FBC, last I checked, but not really relevant to the point.  He's also written books and articles.

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## donnay

*Are Tetanus Shots Necessary?* 



The tetanus vaccine is one of the biggest scams going. At it's height in 1948 there were only 601 cases of tetanus in all of America according to the Centers for Disease Control's own statistics published in Morbidity and Mortality Weekly. From 1995 to 2005 there were only an average of 35 cases per year in the entire country! This means that the likelihood of getting tetanus is millions to one. Since the tetanus vaccine supposedly gives a person immunity for only ten years and most people don't get tetanus shots pass childhood, one would expect a lot more cases of tetanus given the fact that millions of Americans get cut on any given day. The reality is that this is simply not the case. America is a country of over 300 million people and therefore 35 cases of tetanus (most of whom fully recover) is infinitesimal! It would be equivalent to someone living in Manhattan worrying about being eaten by an alligator!

"The disease is rare in the United States, with less than 100 cases of tetanus reported annually. "
(http://publichealth.lacounty.gov/acd...es/Tetanus.htm)

The medical establishment would like for people to live in fear of getting tetanus whenever they get a cut, but the statistics simply do not support that. It makes no sense to be giving the tetanus vaccine to millions of babies and children when their risk of ever getting tetanus is next to zero and the vaccine has its own set of potential adverse reactions. The only reason why the tetanus vaccine is still on the market is because of profit, plain and simple!

Most people who get tetanus do not get lockjaw. The vast majority fully recover. Since Clostridium tetani, which is the bacteria that supposedly causes tetanus, is typically found in soil and animal manure, those who live and work on farms have a small risk of getting tetanus, if they have a deep cut with something that has soil and animal manure on it, but the risk for those who live in cities is virtually nonexistent. One has a greater chance of being struck by lightening than ever getting tetanus.

Doctors simply recommend cleaning minor wounds with soap and water and a disinfectant, and this is usually sufficient protection. On the other hand, there are a wide range of potential side effects from the tetanus vaccine including: brain damage, seizures and difficulty swallowing among others. The tetanus vaccine has also been linked to causing sterility in women because of a hormone placed in the tetanus shot. From 1990 to 2011 there were 117, 360 adverse events reported as a result of vaccines that contained the tetanus vaccine. These were reported to VAERS - Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System of the Centers for Disease Control. (http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/data). Since most adverse vaccine reactions are never reported, it is generally believed that these numbers only represent about 10% of the actual number of adverse reactions to vaccines.

The bottom is that most people have almost a zero risk of every getting tetanus and those who take a tetanus vaccine are exposing themselves to the multiple risks of the vaccine itself. The only justification for the tetanus vaccine being on the market is big profits for the drug companies. President Obama should have the need for the tetanus vaccine re-evaluated.



Vaccines Are Dangerous  pp. 96 - 100, pp. 133-153

Are New Vaccines
Laced with Birth-Control Drugs?
http://www.thinktwice.com/birthcon.htm


http://publichealth.lacounty.gov/acd...es/Tetanus.htm

VAERS - Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System
http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/data

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## HigherVision

> This.
> 
> But the OP has a point... once herd immunity is compromised we can all find ourselves at risk.


Don't worry, you're not too badly at risk of straying from the herd.

----------


## HigherVision

> shawnsiegel 1 day ago
> 
> Vaccines do, indeed, sometimes, but not always, preclude the display of the particular diseases, but that is not necessarily a good sign. It as likely indicates a shutdown of the immune systems ability to respond as it does actual protection from the disease, and with that particular effectiveness come the chronic illnesses and autoimmune disorders so commonly seen as vaccine damage but so rarely seen discussed in the mainstream.
> 
> We are vaccine guinea pigs. The National Institute of Health defines the final stage of clinical trial as the post-licensure administration of the product to the general public. That is, the mass use of vaccines is what finally determines the actual degree of risk, as the real world reported adverse reactions accumulate. Yet, the industry presupposes them safe, meaning, in vaccine lingo, the benefits outweigh the risks, despite the fact that they do not yet know the reality of those risks. That is a terribly circular, dangerous and deceptive protocol.
> 
> Even if you swallow the tripe of herd immunity as a valid means of societal protection, it, too, is meaningless if the true risks of vaccination are not known.


On the other hand, the belief that vaccines do work makes me feel good so I support kids being forced to take them.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Article TODAY in Forbes Magazine (not some loser rag like Natural News)


An opinion piece in Forbes is somehow more valid than an opinion piece in Natural News?

Here's what the CDC has to say about it:




> Washington state has one of the highest exemption rates in the nation. But the CDC said that does not appear to be a major factor in the outbreak, since most of the youngsters who got sick had been vaccinated.


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...whooping+cough

Since pertussis is bacterial and not viral, I'd suggest it is people that run to the doctor's office for every sniffle and demand anti-biotics causing this and not people who have declined vaccinations. This was what caused MRSA.




> These Anti-Vaxers are going to kill us all!


Back off, Dr. Mengele.

What are you prepared to do to us "refuseniks"?

----------


## RonRules

> What are you prepared to do to us "refuseniks"?


Ban you from Disneyland.

In fact, I don't live too far. I think I'll go talk the the management and scare them into thinking they could get sued if some child goes there and gets polio because he sat on an infected plastic Dumbo the elephant.

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## Origanalist

Keep disneyland, just leave me alone.

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## donnay

> Ban you from Disneyland.
> 
> In fact, I don't live too far. I think I'll go talk the the management and scare them into thinking they could get sued if some child goes there and gets polio because he sat on an infected plastic Dumbo the elephant.


Dizzyland is more like it.  I bet you have no problem allowing them access to your biometrics either--even after your pay an insane entry fee.  It's people like you who gracefully allow the tyranny in.

_"None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free."_

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## RonRules

Actually, I really think banning Anti-Vaxers from Disneyland is exactly the type of headline that's needed to stop the useless killing of infants, kids and young adults.

Bring your vaccination certificate if you want to enter Disneyland. It's a private place and Libertarians should have no problem with that.

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## Danke

> Ban you from Disneyland.
> 
> In fact, I don't live too far. I think I'll go talk the the management and scare them into thinking they could get sued if some child goes there and gets polio because he sat on an infected plastic Dumbo the elephant.


If you have any spare change (I've been vaccinated, many times):

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...nd!&highlight=

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## Anti Federalist

> Ban you from Disneyland.
> 
> In fact, I don't live too far. I think I'll go talk the the management and scare them into thinking they could get sued if some child goes there and gets polio because he sat on an infected plastic Dumbo the elephant.


And I'll demand that you show antibiotic records, so I know you're not harboring some resistant super bug that mutated in *you*.

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## RonRules

So here's the deal kids:

You get vaccinated, it hurts a little bit:


For some it's more others it's less:


And then you get to have fun at Disneyland!

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## heavenlyboy34

> If you have any spare change (I've been vaccinated, many times):
> 
> www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?276767-Help-send-Danke-to-Disneyland!&highlight=


All this time and no one's ponied up the cash to send you to the Magic Kingdom?  Sorry, princess.   Good luck with that.

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## donnay

What is so sad is the children that are vaccinated are the very ones spreading the diseases around.  I don't know why it is hard for people to understand that?

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> And I'll demand that you show antibiotic records, so I know you're not harboring some resistant super bug that mutated in *you*.


Papers please, citizen. (or RFID chip?)

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## RonRules

At Chuck-E-Cheese too:

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## donnay

*WHY YOU SHOULD AVOID TAKING VACCINES*

By Dr. James Howenstine, MD.
December 7, 2003
*NewsWithViews.com*

    Dr. James R. Shannon, former director of the National institute of health declared, "the only safe vaccine is one that is never used."

Cowpox vaccine was believed able to immunize people against smallpox. At the time this vaccine was introduced, there was already a decline in the number of cases of smallpox. Japan introduced compulsory vaccination in 1872. In 1892 there were 165,774 cases of smallpox with 29,979 deaths despite the vaccination program. A stringent compulsory smallpox vaccine program, which prosecuted those refusing the vaccine, was instituted in England in 1867. Within 4 years 97.5 % of persons between 2 and 50 had been vaccinated. The following year England experienced the worst smallpox epidemic[1] in its history with 44,840 deaths. Between 1871 and 1880 the incidence of smallpox escalated from 28 to 46 per 100,000. The smallpox vaccine does not work.

Much of the success attributed to vaccination programs may actually have been due to improvement in public health related to water quality and sanitation, less crowded living conditions, better nutrition, and higher standards of living. Typically the incidence of a disease was clearly declining before the vaccine for that disease was introduced. In England the incidence of polio had decreased by 82 % before the polio vaccine was introduced in 1956.

In the early 1900s an astute Indiana physician, Dr. W.B. Clarke, stated "Cancer was practically unknown until compulsory vaccination with cowpox vaccine began to be introduced. I have had to deal with two hundred cases of cancer, and I never saw a case of cancer in an unvaccinated[2] person."

There is a widely held belief that vaccines should not be criticized because the public might refuse to take them. This is valid only if the benefits exceed the known risks of the vaccines.

Do Vaccines Actually Prevent Disease?

This important question does not appear to have ever been adequately studied. Vaccines are enormously profitable for drug companies and recent legislation in the U.S. has exempted lawsuits against pharmaceutical firms in the event of adverse reactions to vaccines which are very common. In 1975 Germany stopped requiring pertussis (whooping cough) vaccination. Today less than 10 % of German children are vaccinated against pertussis. The number of cases of pertussis has steadily decreased[3] even though far fewer children are receiving pertussis vaccine.

Measles outbreaks have occurred in schools with vaccination rates over 98 % in all parts of the U.S. including areas that had reported no cases of measles for years. As measles immunization rates rise to high levels measles becomes a disease seen only in vaccinated persons. An outbreak of measles occurred in a school where 100 % of the children had been vaccinated. Measles mortality rates had declined by 97 % in England before measles vaccination was instituted.

In 1986 there were 1300 cases of pertussis in Kansas and 90 % of these cases occurred in children who had been adequately vaccinated. Similar vaccine failures have been reported from Nova Scotia where pertussis continues to be occurring despite universal vaccination. Pertussis remains endemic[4] in the Netherlands where for more than 20 years 96 % of children have received 3 pertussis shots by age 12 months.

After institution of diptheria vaccination in England and Wales in 1894 the number of deaths from diptheria rose by 20 % in the subsequent 15 years. Germany had compulsory vaccination in 1939. The rate of diptheria spiraled to 150,000 cases that year whereas, Norway which did not have compulsory vaccination, had only 50 cases of diptheria the same year.

The continued presence of these infectious diseases in children who have received vaccines proves that life long immunity which follows natural infection does not occur in persons receiving vaccines. The injection process places the viral particles into the blood without providing any clear way to eliminate these foreign substances.

Why Do Vaccines Fail To Protect Against Diseases?

Walene James, author of Immunization: the Reality Behind The Myth, states that the full[5] inflammatory response is necessary to create real immunity. Prior to the introduction of measles and mumps vaccines children got measles and mumps and in the great majority of cases these diseases were benign. Vaccines "trick" the body so it does not mount a complete inflammatory response to the injected virus.

Vaccines and Sudden Infant Death Syndrome SIDS

The incidence of Sudden Infant Death syndrome SIDS has grown from .55 per 1000 live births in 1953 to 12.8 per 1000 in 1992 in Olmstead County, Minnesota. The peak incidence for SIDS is age 2 to 4 months the exact time most vaccines are being given to children. 85 % of cases of SIDS occur in the first 6 months of infancy. The increase in SIDS as a percentage of total infant deaths has risen from 2.5 per 1000 in 1953 to 17.9 per 1000 in 1992. This rise in SIDS deaths has occurred during a period when nearly every childhood disease was declining due to improved sanitation and medical progress except SIDS. These deaths from SIDS did increase during a period when the number of vaccines given a child was steadily rising to 36 per child.

Dr. W. Torch was able to document 12 deaths in infants which appeared within 3½ and 19 hours of a DPT immunization. He later reported 11 new cases of SIDS death and one near miss which had occurred within 24 hours of a DPT injection. When he studied 70 cases of SIDS two thirds of these victims[6] had been vaccinated from one half day to 3 weeks prior to their deaths. None of these deaths was attributed to vaccines. Vaccines are a sacred cow and nothing against them appears in the mass media because they are so profitable to pharmaceutical firms.

There is valid reason to think that not only are vaccines worthless in preventing disease they are counterproductive because they injure the immune system permitting cancer, auto-immune diseases and SIDS to cause much disability and death.

Are Vaccines Sterile?

Dr. Robert Strecker claimed that the department of defense DOD was given $10,000,000 in 1969 to create the AIDS virus to be used as a population-reducing[7] weapon against blacks. By use of the Freedom of Information Act Dr. Strecker was able to learn that the DOD secured funds from Congress to perform studies on immune destroying agents for germ warfare.

Once produced, the vaccine was given in two locations. Smallpox vaccine containing HIV was given to 100,000,000 Africans in 1977. Over 2000 young white homosexual males in New York City were given Hepatitis B vaccine that contained HIV virus in 1978. This vaccine was given at New York City Blood Center. The Hepatitis B vaccine containing the HIV virus was also administered to homosexual males in San Francisco, Los Angeles, St.Louis, Houston and Chicago in 1978 and 1979. U.S. Public Health epidemiology studies have disclosed that these same 6 cities had the highest incidence of AIDS, Aids related Complex (ARC) and deaths rates from HIV, when compared to other U.S. cities.

When a new virus is introduced into a community. It takes 20 years for the number of cases to double. If the fabricated story that green monkey bites of pygmies led to the HIV epidemic, the alleged monkey bites in the 1940s should have produced a peak in the incidence of HIV in the 1960s at which time HIV was non existent in Africa. The World Health Organization (WHO) began a African smallpox vaccination campaign in 1977 that targeted urban population centers and avoided pygmies. If the green monkey bites of pygmies truly caused the HIV epidemic the incidence of HIV in pygmies should have been higher than in urban citizens. However, the opposite was true.

In 1954 Dr. Bernice Eddy (bacteriologist) discovered live monkey viruses in supposedly sterile inactivated polio vaccine[8] developed by Dr. Jonas Salk. This discovery was not well received at the NIH and Dr. Eddy was demoted. Later Dr. Eddy, working with Sarah Stewart, discovered SE polyoma virus. This virus was quite important because it caused cancer in every animal receiving it. Yellow fever vaccine had previously been found to contain avian (bird) leukemia virus. Later Dr. Hilleman isolated SV 40 virus from both the Salk and Sabin polio vaccines. There were 40 different viruses[9] in these polio vaccines they were trying to eradicate. They were never able to get rid of these viruses ontaminating the polio vaccines. The SV 40 virus causes malignancies. It has now been identified in 43 % of cases of non-Hodgekin lymphoma[10] , 36 % of brain tumors[11] , 18 % of healthy blood samples, and 22 % of healthy semen samples, mesothiolomas and other malignancies. By the time of this discovery SV 40 had already been injected into 10,000,000 people in Salk vaccine. Gastric digestion inactivtes some of SV 40 in Sabin vaccine. However, the isolation of strains of Sabin polio vaccine from all 38 cases of Guillan Barre Syndrome[12] GBS in Brazil suggests that significant numbers of persons are able to be infected from this vaccine. All 38 of these patients had received Sabin polio vaccine months to years before the onset of GBS. The incidence of non-Hodgekin lymphoma has"mysteriouly" doubled since the 1970s.

Dr. John Martin, Professor of Pathology at the Univ. of Southern California, was employed by the Viral Oncology Branch of the Bureau of Biologics (FDA) from 1976 to 1980. While employed there he identified foreign DNA in the live polio vaccine Orimune Lederle that suggested serious vaccine contamination. He warned his supervisors about this problem and was told to discontinue his work as it was outside the scope of testing required for polio vaccine.

Later Dr. Martin learned that all eleven of the African green monkeys used to grow the Lederle polio virus Orimune had grown simian cytomegalovirus from kidney cell cultures. Lederle was aware of this viral contamination as their Cytomegaloviral Contamination Plan[13] clearly showed in 1972. The Bureau of Biologics decided not to pursue the matter so production of infected polio vaccine continued.

In 1955 Dr. Martin identified unique cell destroying viruses termed stealth viruses in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome. These viruses lacked genes that would enable the immune system to recognize them. Thus they were protected by the body's failure to develop antiviral antibodies. In March of 1995, Dr. Martin learned that some of these stealth viruses had originated from African green monkey simian cytomegalovirus of a type known to infect man.

The Lederle vaccine experience suggests that the higher-ups are not concerned about sloppy and dangerous preparation of vaccines. Animal cross infection is a huge unsolved current problem for all vaccine manufacturing. If this vaccine production sounds like an unbelievable mess to you, you are right.

The influential Club of Rome has a position paper in which they state that the world population is too large and needs to be reduced by 90 %. This means that 6 billion people must be reduced to 500 to 600 million. Obviously, creating famines and genocidal wars such as wrecked havoc in Africa, and loosing new laboratory-created diseases (HIV, Ebola, Marburg[14] , and probably West Nile virus and SARS) can help reduce the population. Other elitist groups (Trilaterals, Bildenbergers) have expressed similar concerns about excess people on planet Earth.

The company that was projected to produce the new smallpox vaccine in the U.S. was in serious trouble in England because of unsatisfactory quality of operations before setting up their facility in the U.S. Why would their performance here be any better than it was in England?

If there are important powerful groups of people that are determined to reduce the world population, what could be a more diabolically clever way to eliminate people than to inject them with a cancer-causing vaccine? The person receiving the injection would never suspect that the vaccine taken 10 to 15 years earlier had caused the cancer to appear.

Other Dangers From Vaccines

In the March 4, 1977 issue of Science Jonas and Darrell Salk warn, "Live virus vaccines against influenza or poliomyelitis may in each instance produce the disease it intended to prevent. The live virus against measles and mumps may produce such side effects as encephalitis (brain damage).

The swine flu vaccine was administered to the American public even though there had never been a case of swine flu identified in a human. Farmers refused to use the vaccine because it killed too many animals. Within a few months of use in humans this vaccine caused many cases of serious nerve injury (Guillan Barre syndrome).

An article in the Washington Post on Jan. 26, 1988 mentioned that all cases of polio since 1979 had been caused by the polio vaccine with no known cases of polio from a wild strain since 1979. This might have created a perfect situation to discontinue the vaccine, but the vaccine is still given. Vaccines are a wonderful source of profits with no risks to the drug companies since vaccine injuries are now recompensed by the government.

The steady escalation in the number of vaccines administered has been followed by an identical rise in the incidence of auto-immune diseases (rheumatoid arthritis, subacute lupus erythematosus, psoriasis, multiple sclerosis, asthma) seen in children. While there is a genetic transmission of some of these diseases many are probably due to the injury from foreign protein particles, mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde and other toxic agents injected in vaccines.

In 1999, the rotavirus vaccine was recommended by the Center for Disease Control for all infants. When this vaccine program was instituted several infants died and many had life endangering bowel obstructions. Prelicensure trials[15] of the rotavirus vaccine had demonstrated an increased incidence of intussusception 30 times greater than normal but the vaccine was released anyway without special warnings to practitioners to be on the lookout for bowel problems. Children's vaccines are often not studied for toxicity possibly because such study might eliminate them from being used.

A large study from Australia showed that the risk of developing encephalitis from the pertussis vaccine was 5 times greater than the risk of developing encephalitis by contacting pertussis by natural methods.

Naturally acquired immunity by illness evolves by spread of a virus from the respiratory tract to the liver, thymus, spleen, and bone marrow. When symptoms begin, the entire immune response has been mobilized to repel the invading virus. This complex immune system response creates antibodies that confer life long immunity against that invading virus and prepares the child to respond promptly to an infection by the same virus in the future.

Vaccination, in contrast, results in the persisting of live virus or other foreign antigens within the cells of the body, a situation that may provoke auto-immune reactions as the body attempts to destroy its own infected cells. There is no surprise that the incidence of auto-immune diseases (rheumatoid arthritis, subacute lupus erythematosus, multiple sclerosis, asthma, psoriasis) has risen sharply in this era of multiple vaccine immunization.

Vaccine Induced Type 1 Diabetes Mellitus

Dr. John Classen has published 29 articles on vaccine-induced[16] diabetes. At least 8 of 10 children with Type 1 (insulin needing) diabetes have this disease as a result of vaccination. These children may have avoided measles, mumps, and whooping cough but they have received something far worse: an illness that shortens life expectancy by 10 to 15 years and results in a life requiring constant medical care.

Dr. Classen has shown in Finland, the introduction of hemophilus type b vaccine caused three times as many cases of type 1 diabetes as the number of deaths and brain damage from hemophilus influenza type b it might have prevented.

In New Zealand, the incidence of Type 1 diabetes in children rose by 61 % after an aggressive vaccine program against hepatitis B.. This same program has been started in the U.S.A. so we can now look forward to many cases of Type 1 diabetes in children. Similar rises in Type 1 diabetes have been seen in England, Italy, Sweden, and Denmark after immunization programs against Hepatitis B.

Toxic Substances Are Needed To Make Vaccines.

Vaccines contain many toxic substances that are needed to prevent the vaccines from becoming infected or to improve the performance of the vaccine. Among these substances are mercury, formaldehyde and aluminum.[17]

In the past 10 years, the number of autistic children has risen from between 200 and 500 percent in every state in the U.S. This sharp rise in autism followed the introduction of measles, mumps and rubella vaccine in 1975.

Representative Dan Burton's healthy grandson was given injections for 9 diseases in one day. These injections were instantly followed by autism. These injections contain a preservative of mercury called thimerosal. The boy received 41 times the amount of mercury which is capable of harm to the body. Mercury is a neurotoxin that can injure the brain and nervous system. And tragically, it did.

In the United States the number of compulsory vaccine injections has increased from 10 to 36 in the last 25 years. During this period, there has been a simultaneous increase in the number of children suffering learning disabilities and attention deficit disorder. Some of these childhood disabilities are related to intrauterine cerebral damage from maternal cocaine use, but probably vaccines cause many of the others.

Many vaccines contain aluminum. A new disease called macrophagic myofasciitis causes pain in muscles, bones and joints. All persons with this disease have received aluminum containing vaccines. Deposits of aluminum are able to remain as an irritant in tissues and disturb the immune and nervous system for a lifetime.

Nearly all vaccines contain aluminum and mercury. These metals appear to play an important role in the etiology of Alzheimer's Disease. An expert at the 1997 International Vaccine Conference related that a person who takes 5 or more annual flu vaccine shots has increased the likelihood of developing Alzheimer's Disease by a factor of 10 over the person who has had 2 or fewer flu shots.

When we take vaccines we are playing a modern version of Russian Roulette. We not only get exposed to aluminum, mercury, formaldehyde and foreign cell proteins but we may get simian virus 40 and other dangerous viruses which can cause cancer, leukemia and other severe health problems because the vaccine pool is contaminated due to careless animal isolation techniques. Congress has protected the manufacturers from lawsuits, so dangerous vaccines simply increase profits at no risk to the drug companies.

U.S. children aged 2 months began receiving hepatitis B vaccine in December 2000.No peer-reviewed studies of the safety of hepatitis B in this age bracket had been done. Over 36,000 adverse reactions with 440 deaths were soon reported but the true incidence is much higher as reporting is voluntary so only approximately 10 % of adverse reactions get reported. This means that about 5000 infants are dying annually from the hepatitis B vaccine. The CDC's Chief of Epidemiology admits that the frequency of serious reactions to hepatitis B vaccine is 10 times higher than other vaccines. Hepatitis B is transmitted sexually and by contaminated blood, so the incidence of this disease must be near zero in this age bracket. A vaccine expert, Dr. Philip Incao, states that "the conclusion is obvious that the risks[18] of hepatitis B vaccination far outweigh the benefits. Once a vaccine is mandated the vaccine manufacturer is no longer liable for adverse reactions.

Dr. W.B. Clarke's important observation that cancer was not found in unvaccinated individuals demands an explanation and one now appears forthcoming. All vaccines given over a short period of time to an immature immune system deplete the thymus gland (the primary gland involved in immune reactions) of irreplaceable immature immune cells. Each of these cells could have multiplied and developed into an army of valuable cells to combat infection and growth of abnormal cells. When these immune cells have been used up, permanent immunity may not appear. The Arthur Research Foundation in Tucson, Arizona estimates that up to 60 % of our immune system may be exhausted[19] by multiple mass vaccines (36 are now required for children). Only 10 % of immune cells are permanently lost when a child is permitted to develop natural immunity from disease. There needs to be grave concern about these immune system injuring vaccinations! Could the persons who approve these mass vaccinations know that they are impairing the health of these children, many of whom are being doomed to requiring much medical care in the future?

Compelling evidence is available that the development of the immune system after contracting the usual childhood diseases matures and renders it capable to fight infection and malignant cells in the future.

The use of multiple vaccines, which prevents natural immunity, promotes the development of allergies and asthma. A New Zealand study disclosed that 23 % of vaccinated children develop asthma , as compared to zero in unvaccinated children.

Cancer was a very rare illness in the 1890's. This evidence about immune system injury from vaccinating affords a plausible explanation for Dr. Clarke's finding that only vaccinated individuals got cancer. Some radical adverse change in health occurred in the early 1900s to permit cancer to explode and vaccinating appears to be the reason.

Vaccines are an unnatural phenomena. My guess is that if enough persons said no to immunizations there would be a striking improvement in general health with nature back in the immunizing business instead of man. Having a child vaccinated should be a choice not a requirement. Medical and religious exemptions are permitted by most states.

When governmental policies require vaccinations before children enter schools coercion has overruled the lack of evidence of vaccine efficacy and safety. There is no proof that vaccines work and they are never studied for safety before release. My opinion is that there is overwhelming evidence that vaccines are dangerous and the only reason for their existence is to increase profits of pharmaceutical firms.

If you are forced to immunize your children so they can enter school, obtain a notarized statement from the director of the facility that they will accept full financial responsibility for any adverse reaction from the vaccine. Since there is at least a 2 percent risk of a serious adverse reaction they may be smart enough to permit your child to escape a dangerous procedure. Recent legislation passed by Congress gives the government the power to imprison persons refusing to take vaccines (smallpox, anthrax, etc). This would be troublesome to enforce if large numbers of citizens declined to be vaccinated at the same time.

Footnotes:

1 Null Gary Vaccination: An Analysis of the Health Risks- Part Townsend Letter for Doctors & Patients Dec. 2003 pg 78
2 Mullins Eustace Murder by Injection pg 132 The National Council for Medical Research, P. O. Box 1105, Staunton, Virginia 24401
3 Gary Null Interview with Dr. Dean Black April 7, 1995
4 de Melker HE, et al Pertussis in the Netherlands: an outbreak despite high levels of immunization with whole-cell vaccine Emerging Infectious Diseases 1997; 3(2): 175-8 Centers for Disease Control
5 Gary Null Interview with Walene James, April 6, 1995
6 Torch WS Diptheria-pertussis-tetanus (DPT) immunizations: a potential cause of the sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) Neurology 1982; 32-4 A169 abstract.
7 Collin Jonathan The Townsend Letter for Doctors & Patients 1988 abstracted in Horowitz L. Emerging Viruses Aids & Ebola pg 1-5
8 Harris RJ et al Contaminant viruses in two live vaccines produced in chick cells.J Hyg (London) 1966 Mar:64(1) : 1-7
9 Horowitz Leonard G. Emerging Viruses AIDS & Ebola pg 484
10 Vilchez RA et al Association between simian virus 40 and non-Hodgekin lymphoma Lancet 2002 Mar 9;359(9309):817-823
11 Bu X A study of simian virus 40 infection and its origin in human brain tumors Zhonghu Liu Xing Bing Xue Zhi 2000 Feb;21 (1):19-21
12 Friedrich F. et al temporal association between the isolation of Sabin-related poliovirus vaccine strains and the Guillan-Barre syndrome Rev Inst Med Trop Sao Paulo 1996 Jan-Feb; 38(1):55-8
13 Horowitz Leonard Emerging Viruses: Aids and Ebola pg 492
14 Horowitz Leonard G Emerging Viruses: Aids & Ebola pg 378-88 Tetrahedron Inc. Suite 147, 206 North 4th Ave. Sandpoint, Idaho 83864 1-888-508-4787 tetra@tetrahedron.org
15 Null, Gary Vaccination: An Anatysis of the health risks-Part 3 Townsend letter for doctors & patients Dec. 2003 pg 78
16 Classen, JB et al. Association between type 1 diabetes and Hib vaccine BMJ 1999; 319:1133
17 Brain 9/01
18 Incao, philip M.D. Letter to representative Dale Van Vyven, Ohio House of Representatives March 1, 1999 provided to www.garynull.com by The Natural Immunity Information Network
19 Rowen Robert Your first consultation with Dr. Rowen pg 20

© 2003 Dr. James Howenstine - All Rights Reserved

----------


## twoggle

> *WHY YOU SHOULD AVOID TAKING VACCINES*
> 
> By Dr. James Howenstine, MD.
> December 7, 2003
> *NewsWithViews.com*
> ....
> U.S. children aged 2 months began receiving hepatitis B vaccine in December 2000.No peer-reviewed studies of the safety of hepatitis B in this age bracket had been done. Over 36,000 adverse reactions with 440 deaths were soon reported but the true incidence is much higher as reporting is voluntary so only approximately 10 % of adverse reactions get reported. This means that about 5000 infants are dying annually from the hepatitis B vaccine. The CDC's Chief of Epidemiology admits that the frequency of serious reactions to hepatitis B vaccine is 10 times higher than other vaccines. Hepatitis B is transmitted sexually and by contaminated blood, so the incidence of this disease must be near zero in this age bracket.


Hi! I am curious as to where the author got the estimate of 10% of the adverse reactions to vaccines are reported. The reason I ask is that former FDA Commissioner, David Kessler published an article in the Journal of the American Medical Association pointing to a study that showed only 1% of *serious* adverse reactions to drugs and medical devices are reported. At that time, you could take the reported serious adverse effects of a drug and multiply by 100 to get a possible figure of true serious adverse effects. It would be a positive thing (but surprising) if the reporting of adverse effects up to 10% for vaccines.

----------


## angelatc

> What is so sad is the children that are vaccinated are the very ones spreading the diseases around.  I don't know why it is hard for people to understand that?


I'm sure you don't.

----------


## donnay

*Nancy Banks MD: Vaccines are Dangerous and the Medical Inquisition*
January 1, 2012 by *The Refusers*

MB Comment: This is an outstanding video interview with MD, ObGyn, MBA Nancy Banks (trained at Harvard Medical School), who practiced at Columbia Presbyterian, Mt. Sinai and Sloan Kettering hospitals in NYC. She really digs into vaccine pseudoscience and pharmaceutical company propaganda. She says vaccines are dangerous, most doctors are brainwashed in medical schools and are intentionally never exposed to the scientific truth about vaccine adverse reactions. She concludes by comparing the backlash by medical societies against doctors who speak out against vaccines to the inquisition in the Middle Ages, in which millions were executed by the Church (including midwives and herbal healers) because church dogma claimed that people were sick because of sin.

----------


## angelatc

> All this time and no one's ponied up the cash to send you to the Magic Kingdom?  Sorry, princess.   Good luck with that.


Maybe he should tell us he's taking a political training class!

----------


## RonRules

Hey donnay, instead of Quack Spamming longs blocks of text that push my fun pictures to previous pages where no one can see them, could you please write original responses that you actually came up with?

Thanks,

RR

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## Danke

> Maybe he should tell us he's taking a political training class!


I'm taking a political training class.

----------


## angelatc

> *Nancy Banks MD: Vaccines are Dangerous and the Medical Inquisition*
> January 1, 2012 by *The Refusers*
> 
> MB Comment: This is an outstanding video interview with MD, ObGyn, MBA Nancy Banks (trained at Harvard Medical School), who practiced at Columbia Presbyterian, Mt. Sinai and Sloan Kettering hospitals in NYC. She really digs into vaccine pseudoscience and pharmaceutical company propaganda. She says vaccines are dangerous, most doctors are brainwashed in medical schools and are intentionally never exposed to the scientific truth about vaccine adverse reactions. She concludes by comparing the backlash by medical societies against doctors who speak out against vaccines to the inquisition in the Middle Ages, in which millions were executed by the Church (including midwives and herbal healers) because church dogma claimed that people were sick because of sin.


You'd think that with her training, she's be able to produce some peer-reviewed scientific studies to actually prove her points.    I guess selling books to people who already agree with her takes up all her time.

ETA: She's certainly not a Libertarian! She openly blames capitalism and free markets for AIDS, too.

----------


## RonRules

Hey I can do fear mongering too!

*DANGER, DANGER !!!!*

*DON'T FLY DUMBO AT DISNEYLAND!!*

*DO YOU KNOW THAT SOME WACKY ANTI-VAXER COULD HAVE BEEN ON THE RIDE BEFORE YOU?!!*

----------


## donnay

> Hi! I am curious as to where the author got the estimate of 10% of the adverse reactions to vaccines are reported. The reason I ask is that former FDA Commissioner, David Kessler publisher an article in the Journal of the American Medical Association pointing to a study that showed only 1% of *serious* adverse reactions to drugs and medical devices are reported. At that time, you could take the reported serious adverse effects of a drug and multiply by 100 to get a possible figure of true serious adverse effects. It would be a positive thing (but surprising) if the reporting of adverse effects up to 10% for vaccines.


Incao, philip M.D. Letter to representative Dale Van Vyven, Ohio House of Representatives March 1, 1999 provided to www.garynull.com by The Natural Immunity Information Network.

Or you can e-mail him @: jimhow@racsa.co.cr

----------


## angelatc

> I dunno about that.  People have been believing ridiculous things they see and hear in the media for many generations and acting stupidly on it.  Stossel made a career out of reporting about it.


Yes, but when Stossel produced a rebuttal, people had to either turn it off or listen to it.  Then it was done.

The internet gives the loonies the chance to respond with an overwhelming amount of unsubstantiated nonsense that simply overwhelms the simple truth.  The crazies are tireless, and the young are impressionable.  

The whole vaccine scare is the biggest medical fraud we've seen in 100 years, and it's only getting bigger.

----------


## donnay

> You'd think that with her training, she's be able to produce some peer-reviewed scientific studies to actually prove her points.    I guess selling books to people who already agree with her takes up all her time.
> 
> ETA: She's certainly not a Libertarian! She openly blames capitalism and free markets for AIDS, too.


The Pourcyrous Study: the peer reviewed medical study proving that vaccines cause brain hemorrhages, apnea, and heart damage in infants. 

The Pourcyrous Study: A Major Milestone in Medical History

A study on primary immunization of 239 premature infants with gestational ages of less than 35 weeks by M. Pourcyrous et al. (Journal of Pediatrics, 2007) [23] was conducted to determine the incidence of cardio-respiratory events and abnormal C-Reaction Protein (CRP) elevations associated with administration of a single vaccine or multiple vaccines simultaneously at or about two months of age. The vaccines given were: DTaP (Infanrix), Hib (ActHIB), HBV (Engerix-B), IPV (Inactivated-IPOL™), and PCV7 (Prevnar).

CRP is a standard blood test indicator for body inflammation, which in the present study would represent brain inflammation. CRP levels and cardio-respiratory manifestations were monitored for three days following immunizations in a neonatal intensive care unit sponsored by the University of Tennessee. Elevations of CRP levels occurred in 70 percent of the infants administered single vaccines and in 85 percent of those administered multiple vaccines, 43 percent of which reached abnormal levels.

As the Pourcyrous study noted,

    A plausible explanation for variation in the magnitude of CRP responses to immunization may be attributed to viral versus bacterial antigenic stimulation, minor variability in the quantity of antigens in different vaccine lots, the multiple antigenic component of a vaccine, the presence and the quantity of aluminum adjuvant, genetic polymorphism or to decrease immunologic responses in some preterm infants. [24]

Overall, 16 percent of infants had potentially lethal vaccine-associated cardio-respiratory events with episodes of apnea (cessation of breathing) and/or bradycardia (abnormal slowing of the pulse). Intraventricular (brain) hemorrhages occurred in 17 percent of those receiving single vaccines and in 24 percent of those receiving multiple vaccines.

Pourcyrous, et al. further indicated that

    Other investigators also have reported on cardiorespiratory events following immunization with DTaP-based multivalent vaccines or when DTaP was given simultaneously with other vaccines. Omenaca et al. after excluding from their study infants with chronic illnesses and using only one lot of combination vaccine, observed cardiorespiratory events in 42% of infants with BW [body weight] <1000 g. [25]

Furthermore, the Pourcyrous study noted that the DTaP vaccine was associated with the highest incidence of cardio-respiratory events in those infants given a single vaccine.

1. Brain inflammation as indicated by elevated C-Reactive Protein tests.
2. Brain swelling (edema) as one of the cardinal signs of inflammation.
3. Potentially lethal cardio-respiratory events.
4. Brain hemorrhages.

The Pourcyrous study also raises a question. Why were the brain hemorrhages in the Pourcyrous study intraventricular rather than subdural, the latter almost invariably being attributed to Shaken Baby Syndrome/Non-Accidental Injury (SBS/NAI) in hospital emergency rooms in the absence of a known major accidental trauma. The answer is that the Pourcyrous study was performed on preterm infants, some born less than 30 weeks term, in whom intraventricular hemorrhages are known to be characteristic. This may be due, at least in part, to the infant brain/skull interactions at different stages of development. In preterm infants the skull would be highly flaccid, providing little if any resistance to a swollen (edematous) brain.

Early animal studies have shown that brain inflammation frequently ensues following vaccines and is also commonly associated with brain hemorrhages.[26-28] In term infants, in contrast to preterm births, the inner surface of the skull presents a relatively firm surface, and when brain inflammation and swelling take place from vaccines, it would require very little swelling for the outer surface of the brain to impact against the inner surface of the skull and, tourniquet-like, cut off the passive outflow of blood from the subdural venous network. With cranial arterial blood coming in at much higher pressures, this would predictably cause a precipitous rise in intra-cerebral venous pressure, the true cause of many subdural hemorrhages.

According to a report by W. Squier and J. Mack (2009) [29], most childhood subdural hemorrhages are identified in infants 0-4 months of age, a time when the subdural compartment consists of 10-15 layers of loosely arranged flake-like cells with fluid between them and few intercellular junctions. [30] Under these highly permeable conditions it is predictable that a rapid surge of intracerebral venous pressure would force blood from the subdural venous network into these loosely connected subdural membranes, the true cause of many subdural hemorrhages now being erroneously attributed to Shaken Baby Syndrome/Non-Accidental Injury.

http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/20...-inflammation/

----------


## donnay

Scholar Study:

The introduction of diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis vaccine and child mortality in rural Guinea-Bissau: an observational study.
Aaby P, Jensen H, Gomes J, Fernandes M, Lisse IM.
Source

Bandim Health Project, Apartado 861, Bissau, Guinea-Bissau. psb@mail.gtelecom.gw
Abstract
BACKGROUND:

and objective Previous studies from areas with high mortality in West Africa have not found diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis (DTP) vaccine to be associated with the expected reduction in mortality, a few studies suggesting increased mortality. We therefore examined mortality when DTP was first introduced in rural areas of Guinea-Bissau in 1984-1987. Setting Twenty villages in four regions have been followed with bi-annual examinations since 1979.
SUBJECTS:

In all, 1657 children aged 2-8 months. Design Children were weighed when attending the bi-annual examinations and they were vaccinated whenever vaccines were available. DTP was introduced in the beginning of 1984, oral polio vaccine later that year. We examined mortality for children aged 2-8 months who had received DTP and compared them with children who had not been vaccinated because they were absent, vaccines were not available, or they were sick.
MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE:

Mortality over the next 6 months from the day of examination for vaccinated and unvaccinated children.
RESULTS:

Prior to the introduction of vaccines, children who were absent at a village examination had the same mortality as children who were present. During 1984-1987, children receiving DTP at 2-8 months of age had higher mortality over the next 6 months, the mortality rate ratio (MR) being 1.92 (95% CI: 1.04, 3.52) compared with DTP-unvaccinated children, adjusting for age, sex, season, period, BCG, and region. The MR was 1.81 (95% CI: 0.95, 3.45) for the first dose of DTP and 4.36 (95% CI: 1.28, 14.9) for the second and third dose. BCG was associated with slightly lower mortality (MR = 0.63, 95% CI: 0.30, 1.33), the MR for DTP and BCG being significantly inversed. Following subsequent visits and further vaccinations with DTP and measles vaccine, there was no difference in vaccination coverage and subsequent mortality between the DTP-vaccinated group and the initially DTP-unvaccinated group (MR = 1.06, 95% CI: 0.78, 1.44).
CONCLUSIONS:

In low-income countries with high mortality, DTP as the last vaccine received may be associated with slightly increased mortality. Since the pattern was inversed for BCG, the effect is unlikely to be due to higher-risk children having received vaccination. The role of DTP in high mortality areas needs to be clarified.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15082643

----------


## donnay

> Yes, but when Stossel produced a rebuttal, people had to either turn it off or listen to it.  Then it was done.
> 
> *The internet gives the loonies the chance to respond with an overwhelming amount of unsubstantiated nonsense that simply overwhelms the simple truth.  The crazies are tireless, and the young are impressionable. * 
> 
> The whole vaccine scare is the biggest medical fraud we've seen in 100 years, and it's only getting bigger.


It's ironic that much of what I and some others have posted have been substantiated.  The problem is, it doesn't agree with your preconceived notions.  Unfortunately people who have been duped go through denial quite aggressively as you have demonstrated throughout this thread.  If you think what we post is looney, move on to another thread--it really is quite that simple.

Government is the ones scaring people into the vaccine program--do you REALLY think they give a damn about you and your children or any of us?

Someone in a private message said this to me:  _"what a world we live in that you have to actually argue against injecting poison into the veins of children."_  It is so very true and very tragic.

----------


## Danke

> Yes, but when Stossel produced a rebuttal, people had to either turn it off or listen to it.  Then it was done.
> 
> The internet gives the loonies the chance to respond with an overwhelming amount of unsubstantiated nonsense that simply overwhelms the simple truth.  The crazies are tireless, and the young are impressionable.  
> 
> The whole vaccine scare is the biggest medical fraud we've seen in 100 years, and it's only getting bigger.


"loonies"  "rabid"  "crazies" (extremists/ right wingers") etc.  why don't people just have discussions and not resort to such silly labeling.

 I have seen an increase of it lately, and not only here.  Are people getting a bit on edge?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> "loonies"  "rabid"  "crazies" (extremists/ right wingers") etc.  why don't people just have discussions and not resort to such silly labeling.
> 
>  I have seen an increase of it lately, and not only here.  Are people getting a bit on edge?


They can't get to DisneeLand or political training classes.

I'm all cool though.

----------


## Danke

> They can't get to DisneeLand or political training classes.
> 
> I'm all cool though.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sjSHazjrWg

----------


## Dogsoldier

All I know is I don't take vaccinations and I can't remember the last time I have been sick.My mom takes the flu vaccine every year and she still get sick several times a year.My father has always preached to me about taking vitamin C and has always insisted that I take it everyday like he has all his life.My dad is 74 and still works as a carpenter so yea he is in excelent health.He will never retire.

All I know is what works for us.

----------


## James Madison

> The Pourcyrous Study: the peer reviewed medical study proving that vaccines cause brain hemorrhages, apnea, and heart damage in infants.


Oh, brother...

Firstly, CRP is associated with inflammation. From what I can gather, macrophage cells involved in the destruction of apoptotic or necrotic cells release hormones that induce the liver to synthesize CRP. CRP then binds to phosphocholine receptors on the surface of microbes or in activation of complement leading to opsin-mediated phagocytosis of foreign or necrotic cells. Ok, makes sense. 

Now, what does vaccination require? Well, you prick someone with a needle and inject fluid into their tissue which should cause....wait for it.......inflammation!!!! Prick yourself with pin, go outside and get a splinter. The same spike should occur. Here's the scary part. If you've ever been sick CRP levels within your body have elevated 50,000 fold within a few hours. What happened in this 'study' happens to you every time you get sick, only around several thousand times more severe. 

This brings me to what you posted. I happened to find the article on google scholar, and here's a quote from the discussion I thought was quite interesting.




> Limitations of the study include absence of a control group...


lolwut?

Anyone who is even semi-trained in science knows you ALWAYS HAVE A CONTROL GROUP. What are they researchers comparing their data to exactly? How do we know this isn't normal? Also, why isn't their a second control group of healthy infants. This way we could see if the prematurity of the subjects' birth had any affect on the incidence of CRP in the bloodstream. Alas, we were given nothing. 

Worse than this oversight, however, is the failure of this study to investigate how long CRP levels were elevated. If they remained this way for six months, a year, two years out then ok, maybe we should look into this. But how do we know CRP levels didn't return to normal 24 hours after the vaccination was administered? As in what happens when you get sick? Nothing.

A final thought. If the scientific community is so all-powerful to squash this painfully obvious secret that 'vaccines are dangerous', why would they publish an article that could jeopardize their monopoly on preventative medicine? You ignore papers from the same journal you disagree with because 'the scientists are brainwashed/their covering things up' but the minute a paper appears that supports your opinion, in the SAME JOURNAL mind you, now they're fully reputable? Because you don't know what you're talking about. Do you have ANY training in science, medicine, microbiology, immunology? Hell, I'll take reading wikipedia articles at this point! You are grossly misinformed and have no idea what science actually involves. If I read a paper that suggests we should reevaluate our vaccination protocols then I'm all for amending them for the public safety. But if a paper suggests the current protocols are sufficient I don't go out of my way to concoct some great international conspiracy just to save face. I have presented you with evidence, REAL SCIENCE, appropriate questions and concerns and your response is to tell me I'm on the take? I WISH I was on the take. I'm a poor 20-something. I WISH I was getting checks from the shadow government. But I'm not. I'm a lowly scientist, a writer, a musician, all of the above. Yet I know BS when I see it. And boy, do you sure know how to bring the BS.

----------


## donnay

> All I know is I don't take vaccinations and I can't remember the last time I have been sick.My mom takes the flu vaccine every year and she still get sick several times a year.My father has always preached to me about taking vitamin C and has always insisted that I take it everyday like he has all his life.My dad is 74 and still works as a carpenter so yea he is in excelent health.He will never retire.
> 
> All I know is what works for us.


Yep that is the bottom line.  Pro-vaxers don't understand, that one-size-fits-all the establishment tries to conform people to, is not good either.  What is good for one person may not be good for another.

It simply goes back to; educate before you vaccinate.  Knowing your body and knowing about nutrition is definitely the ticket to good health and a good healthy immune system.

----------


## donnay

> Oh, brother...
> 
> Firstly, CRP is associated with inflammation. From what I can gather, macrophage cells involved in the destruction of apoptotic or necrotic cells release hormones that induce the liver to synthesize CRP. CRP then binds to phosphocholine receptors on the surface of microbes or in activation of complement leading to opsin-mediated phagocytosis of foreign or necrotic cells. Ok, makes sense. 
> 
> Now, what does vaccination require? *Well, you prick someone with a needle and inject fluid* into their tissue which should cause....wait for it.......inflammation!!!! Prick yourself with pin, go outside and get a splinter. The same spike should occur. Here's the scary part. If you've ever been sick CRP levels within your body have elevated 50,000 fold within a few hours. What happened in this 'study' happens to you every time you get sick, only around several thousand times more severe. 
> 
> This brings me to what you posted. I happened to find the article on google scholar, and here's a quote from the discussion I thought was quite interesting.


Gee when I prick my finger does my brain swell?  

Inject fluid?  Oh you said that so nonchalantly.  And just what is in that fluid?  


The Adjuvants: 

1. Aluminum: Aluminum phosphate, Aluminum hydroxide, Aluminum hydroxyphosphate sulfate, and Aluminum potassium sulfate
2. Various oils including Freunds emulsified oil, mineral oil, emulsified peanut oil (adjuvant 65), and squalene (shark oil),
3. Bacterial products including Bordettella pertussis (whooping cough), Mycobacterium (tuberculosis), cholera toxin, and others. [31]  Adjuvants in various vaccines are listed on vaccine package inserts. [32]


In what may be the most comprehensive review to date on the pathophysiology of adverse vaccine reactions, neurosurgeon Russell Blaylock has compiled a mass of evidence that repeated stimulation of the brains immune system results in intense reactions of microglial and astrocyte cells, which serve as the brains immune system, with each successive series of vaccinations. This is primarily the result of vaccine adjuvants that are added expressly for immune stimulation purposes. [33-35]

In explanation, microglia and astrocytes are first-line immunological responder cells located in the brain that defend against foreign infectious invaders. Normally this response, such as to a viral infection, is of limited duration and harmless to the brain. However, when microglia and astrocytes are over-stimulated for prolonged periods, which vaccine adjuvants are designed to bring about, this extended activation can be very destructive to the brain causing inflammation and/or bleeding.

Because of the critical dependence of the developing brain on a timed sequence of cytokine, and excitatory amino acid fluctuations, according to Blaylock, sequential vaccinations can result in alterations of this critical process that will not only result in synaptic and dendritic loss, but abnormal (nerve) pathway development. 

    When microglia are excessively activated by vaccines, especially chronically, they secrete a number of proinflammatory cytokines, free radicals, lipid peroxidation products, and the two excitotoxins, glutamate and quinolenic acid, which may become proinflammatory and highly destructive when activated for prolonged periods.[33] [Emphasis added]

This process was suggested as the principle mechanism resulting in the pathological as well as clinical features of autism.





> Limitations of the study include absence of a control group...


What are you talking about?  

Objective

To determine the incidence of cardiorespiratory events and abnormal C-reactive protein (CRP) level associated with administration of a single vaccine or multiple separate vaccines simultaneously.

Study design

Prospective observational study on 239 preterm infants at ≥2 months of age in the neonatal intensive care unit (NICU). Each infant received either a single vaccine or multiple vaccines on one day. CRP levels and cardiorespiratory manifestations were monitored for 3 days following immunization.

Results

Abnormal elevation of CRP level occurred in 85% of infants administered multiple vaccines and up to 70% of those given a single vaccine. Overall, 16% of infants had vaccine-associated cardiorespiratory events within 48 hours postimmunization. In logistic regression analysis, abnormal CRP values were associated with multiple vaccines (OR, 15.77; 95% CI 5.10-48.77) and severe intraventricular hemorrhage (IVH) (OR, 2.28; 95% CI 1.02-5.13). Cardiorespiratory events were associated marginally with receipt of multiple injections (OR, 3.62; 95% CI 0.99-13.25) and significantly with gastroesophageal reflux (GER) (OR, 4.76; 95% CI 1.22-18.52).
Conclusion

CRP level is expected to be elevated in the 48 hours following immunization. In a minority of infants immunized, cardiorespiratory events were associated with presumed need for intervention. Underlying medical conditions and possibly multiple injections are associated with cardiorespiratory events. Precautionary monitoring following immunizations is warranted.

http://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3...185-0/abstract

----------


## James Madison

Notice that you do not refute any of my claims. You just post some wall of text as if it's handed down from God himself. Also, read the $#@!ing paper! All of it! Not just the abstract.

Since you're so smart, Donnay, tell me a bit about the immune system. How it works. What it does. The different components. How do those components work together? 

Also explain the field of microbiology. What are bacteria? How are they associated with disease? 

I want specifics. Let's see if you can answer these questions.

----------


## donnay

> Notice that you do not refute any of my claims. You just post some wall of text as if it's handed down from God himself. Also, read the $#@!ing paper! All of it! Not just the abstract.


Hmm..getting a little defensive eh?  Refute your claims--that it should be okay to give an infant whose brain is not fully developed vaccines that can hurt their brains or cause hemorrhaging in the brain?  Are you serious?  To inject poisons into an infant and expected them to fight those poisons with no strong immune system, whatsoever, teeters right on criminal intent, IMHO.

But hey, since your so smart why don't you start a new thread all about microbiology, bacteria and a healthy immune system?  Maybe you can explain how the 1918 Spanish Flu epidemic started.  I want specifics!

----------


## talkingpointes

Seems to be a divide on both sides. Both ignoring what each other has to say. Some vaccines are just better then others.(some work perfectly and have completely eradicated diseases) But I don't think that is reason enough to discount them all, that would be incredibly dumb. 

However I remember as a kid everyone getting chicken pox even though we all got shots for it. I also think the flu shots are BS just based on the amount of mutations in a yearly cycle. 

The people that are so gung ho about vaccines should be the ones staying home though - after all you don't want to get sick.

----------


## donnay

*Big Pharma criminality no longer a conspiracy theory: Bribery, fraud, price fixing now a matter of public record* 

Monday, July 09, 2012
by Mike Adams, the Health Ranger

Those of us who have long been describing the pharmaceutical industry as a "criminal racket" over the last few years have been wholly *vindicated* by recent news. Drug and vaccine manufacturer Merck was caught red-handed by two of its own scientists *faking vaccine efficacy data* by spiking blood samples with animal antibodies. GlaxoSmithKline has just been fined a whopping *$3 billion* for bribing doctors, lying to the FDA, hiding clinical trial data and fraudulent marketing. Pfizer, meanwhile has been sued by the nation's pharmacy retailers for what is alleged as an "overarching anticompetitive scheme" to keep generic cholesterol drugs off the market and thereby boost its own profits.

The picture that's emerging is one of *a criminal drug industry that has turned to mafia tactics in the absence of any real science* that would prove their products to be safe or effective. The emergence of this extraordinary evidence of bribery, scientific fraud, lying to regulators and monopolistic practices that harm consumers is also making all those doctors and "skeptics" who defended Big Pharma and vaccines *eat their words*.

To defend Big Pharma today is to defend a *cabal of criminal corporations* that have proven they will do anything -- absolutely anything -- to keep their profits rolling in. It makes no difference who they have to bribe, what studies they have to falsify, or who has to be threatened into silence. They will stop at nothing to expand their profit base, even if it means harming (or killing) countless innocents.

Let's take a look at recent revelations:

*GlaxoSmithKline pleads guilty to bribery, fraud and other crimes*

In what is now the largest criminal fraud settlement ever to come out of the pharmaceutical industry, GlaxoSmithKline has pleaded guilty and agreed to pay $1 billion in criminal fines and $2 billion in civil fines following a nine-year federal investigation into its activities.

According to U.S. federal investigators, GlaxoSmithKline (http://www.naturalnews.com/036416_Gl...inal_char...):

According to U.S. federal investigators, GlaxoSmithKline (http://www.naturalnews.com/036416_Gl...inal_char...):

• Routinely bribed doctors with luxury vacations and paid speaking gigs
• Fabricated drug safety data and lied to the FDA
• Defrauded Medicare and Medicaid out of billions
• Deceived regulators about the effectiveness of its drugs
• Relied on its deceptive practices to earn billions of dollars selling potentially dangerous drugs to unsuspecting consumers and medical patients

And this is just the part they got caught doing. GSK doesn't even deny any of this. The company simply paid the $3 billion fine, apologized to its customers, and continued conducting business as usual.

By the way, in addition to bribing physicians, GSK has plenty of money to spread around bribing celebrities and others who pimps its products. The company reportedly paid $275,000 to the celebrity doctor known as "Dr. Drew," who promoted Glaxo's mind-altering antidepressant drug Wellbutrin (http://naturalsociety.com/top-radio-...osmithkline-to...).

As the Wall Street Journal reports:

_In June 1999, popular radio personality Dr. Drew Pinsky used the airwaves to extol the virtues of GlaxoSmithKline PLC's antidepressant Wellbutrin, telling listeners he prescribes it and other medications to depressed patients because it "may enhance or at least not suppress sexual arousal" as much as other antidepressants do. But one thing listeners didn't know was that, two months before the program aired, Dr. Pinsky -- who gained fame as "Dr. Drew" during years co-hosting a popular radio sex-advice show "Loveline" -- received the second of two payments from Glaxo totaling $275,000 for "services for Wellbutrin._"
(http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...57750503200685...)

*Merck falsified vaccine data, spiked blood samples and more, say former employees*

According to former Merck virologists Stephen Krahling and Joan Wlochowski, the company: (http://www.naturalnews.com/036328_Me...alse_Claims_Ac...)

• "Falsified test data to fabricate a vaccine efficacy rate of 95 percent or higher."

• Spiked the blood test with animal antibodies in order to artificially inflate the appearance of immune system antibodies.

• Pressured the two virologists to "participate in the fraud and subsequent cover-up."

• Used the falsified trial results to swindle the U.S. government out of "hundreds of millions of dollars for a vaccine that does not provide adequate immunization."

• Intimidated the scientists, threatening them with going to jail unless they stayed silent.

This is all documented in a 2010 False Claims Act which NaturalNews has acquired and posted here:
http://www.naturalnews.com/gallery/d...e-Claims-Act.p...
*
Millions of children put at risk by Merck*

In that document the two virologists say they, "witnessed firsthand the improper testing and data falsification in which Merck engaged to artificially inflate the vaccine's efficacy findings."

They also claim that because of the faked vaccine results, "the United States has over the last decade paid Merck hundreds of millions of dollars for a vaccine that does not provide adequate immunization... The United States is by far the largest financial victim of Merck's fraud."

They go on to point out that children are the real victims, however:

"_But the ultimate victims here are the millions of children who every year are being injected with a mumps vaccine that is not providing them with an adequate level of protection. ...The failure in Merck's vaccine has allowed this disease to linger with significant outbreaks continuing to occur._"
*
Merck's mumps viral strain is 45 years old!*

According to the complaint, Merck has been using the same mumps strain -- weakened from generations of being "passaged" -- for the last 45 years! The complaint reads:

"_For more than thirty years, Merck has had an exclusive license from the FDA to manufacture and sell a mumps vaccine in the U.S. The FDA first approved the vaccine in 1967. It was developed by Dr. Maurice Hilleman, at Merck's West Point research facility, from the mumps virus that infected his five year-old daughter Jeryl Lynn. Merck continues to use this 'Jeryl Lynn' strain of the virus for its vaccine today._"

*A complete medical farce*

This information appears to show Merck's mumps vaccine to be a complete medical farce. Those who blindly backed Merck's vaccines -- the science bloggers, "skeptics," doctors, CDC and even the FDA -- have been shown to be *utter fools who have now destroyed their reputations* by siding with an industry now known to be dominated by scientific fraud and unbounded criminality.

That's the really hilarious part in all this: After decades of doctors, scientists and government authorities blindly and brainlessly repeating the mantra of "95% effectiveness," it all turns out to be total quackery hogwash. Utterly fabricated. Quackety-quack quack. And all those hundreds of millions of Americans who lined up to be injected with MMR vaccines were all *repeatedly and utterly conned* into potentially harming themselves while receiving no medical benefit.

Intelligent, informed NaturalNews readers, home school parents, and "awakened" people who said "No!" to vaccines are now emerging as the victors in all this. By refusing to be injected with Merck's vaccines, they avoided being assaulted with a fraudulent cocktail of adjuvant chemicals and all-but-useless mumps strains over four decades old. They protected their time, money and health. Those who refuse to be physically violated by vaccines are, once again, turning out to be the smartest people in society. No wonder they also tend to be healthier than the clueless fools who line up to get vaccinated every year.
*
Merck fraudulently misrepresented the efficacy of its vaccine and contributed to the spread of infectious disease, says lawsuit*

The faked vaccine efficacy numbers aren't the only troubles Merck is now facing. Shortly after the above False Claims Act was made public, Chatom Primary Care filed suit against Merck. That document is available from NaturalNews at:
http://www.naturalnews.com/gallery/d...suit-Merck-Mum...

It alleges that:

• [Merck engaged in] ...a decade-long scheme to falsify and misrepresent the true efficacy of its vaccine.

• Merck fraudulently represented and continues to falsely represent in its labeling and elsewhere that its Mumps Vaccine has an efficacy rate of 95 percent of higher.

• Merck knows and has taken affirmative steps to conceal -- by using improper testing techniques and falsifying test data -- that its Mumps Vaccine is, and has been since at least 1999, far less than 95 percent effective.

• Merck designed a testing methodology that evaluated its vaccine against a less virulent strain of the mumps virus. After the results failed to yield Merck's desired efficacy, Merck abandoned the methodology and concealed the study's findings.

• Merck also engaged in "incorporating the use of animal antibodies to artificially inflate the results... destroying evidence of the falsified data and then lying to an FDA investigator... threatened a virologist in Merck's vaccine division with jail if he reported the fraud to the FDA."

•"Merck designed a testing methodology that evaluated its vaccine against a less virulent strain of the mumps virus. After the results failed to yield Merck's desired efficacy, Merck abandoned the methodology and concealed the study's findings. [Then] Merck designed even more scientifically flawed methodology, this time incorporating the use of animal antibodies to artificially inflate the results, but it too failed to achieve Merck's fabricated efficacy rate. Confronted with two failed methodologies, *Merck then falsified the test data to guarantee the results it desired*. Having achieved the desired, albeit falsified, efficacy threshold, Merck submitted these fraudulent results to the FDA and European Medicines Agency."

• "Merck took steps to cover up the tracks of its fraudulent testing by destroying evidence of the falsified data and then lying to an FDA investigator... Merck also attempted to buy the silence and cooperation of its staff by offering them financial incentives to follow the direction of Merck personnel overseeing the fraudulent testing process. Merck also threatened... Stephen Krahling, a virologist in Merck's vaccine division from 1999 to 2001, with jail if he reported fraud to the FDA."

• "Merck continued to conceal what it knew about the diminished efficacy of its Mumps Vaccine even after significant mumps outbreaks in 2006 and 2009."
*
Obama administration has zero interest in actual justice*

Another interesting note in all this is that under President Obama, the U.S. Dept. of Justice showed no interest *whatsoever* in investigating Merck over the False Claims Act filed by two of its former virologists. Despite the convincing evidence of fraud described in detail by insider whistleblowers, the Obama Department of Justice, led by gun-running Attorney General Eric Holder who is already facing serious questions over Operation Fast and Furious, simply chose to ignore the False Claims Act complaint.

When evidence of criminal fraud was brought before the U.S. Department of Justice, in other words, the DoJ looked the other way with a wink and a nod to the medical crimes taking place right under their noses. Who cares if tens of millions of children are being injected year after year with a *fraudulent mumps vaccine*? There's money to be made, after all, and exploiting the bodies of little children for profit is just business as usual in a fascist nation dominated by corporate interests.
*
Pfizer sued by retailers over anticompetitive scheme*

Adding to all this, Pfizer has now been sued by five U.S. retailers (pharmacies) who accuse the company of monopolistic market practices. According to the lawsuit, Pfizer conspired to prevent generic versions of its blockbuster cholesterol drug Lipitor from entering the market. This was done to protect billions in profits while making sure patients did not have access to more affordable cholesterol drugs. Pfizer sells nearly *$10 billion worth of Lipitor each year*.

According to the Reuters report on this lawsuit, Pfizer is being accused of (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...-lipitor-...):

• Obtaining a fraudulent patent
• Engaging in sham litigation
• Entering a price-fixing agreement to delay cheaper generics
• Entering arrangements with pharmacy benefit managers to force retailers to buy more Lipitor (chemical name is atorvastatin calcium)
*
No arrests or prosecution of Big Pharma executives*

One of the most astonishing realizations in all this is that given all the *criminal fraud*, bribery, misrepresentation, lying to the FDA, price fixing and other crimes that are going on in the pharmaceutical industry, you'd think somebody somewhere might be arrested and charged with a crime, right?

Nope.

To date, not a single pharmaceutical CEO, marketing employee or drug rep has been charged with anything related to all this fraud. In America, *drug company employees are "above the law"* just like top mafia bosses of a bygone era.

How insane is this, exactly? Consider this:

Imagine if YOU, an individual, went around town bribing doctors, falsifying data, selling a fraudulent product to the government, lying to regulators, engaging in anti-trade price-fixing and threatening your employees into silence. What would happen to you?

You'd probably wind up *rotting in prison*, the subject of an FBI investigation and a DoJ prosecution.

So why is it okay for a multi-billion-dollar corporation to carry out these same crimes and get away with it? Why are the CEOs of top drug companies given a free pass to commit felony crimes and endless fraud?

I'll tell you why, and you're not gonna like the answer: Because *America has become a nation run by crooks for the benefit of crooks*. It's one big country club, and as comedian George Carlin used to say, "YOU ain't in it!"

*If Big Pharma would falsify data on vaccines, what else would the industry do?*

I hope you're getting the bigger picture in all this, friends. If these drug companies routinely bribe doctors, falsify data, defraud the government and commit felony crimes without remorse, what else would they be willing to do for profit?

Would they:

• Falsify efficacy data on other prescription drugs?
• Exploit children for deadly vaccine trials?
• Invent fictitious diseases to sell more drugs?
• Unleash bioweapons to cause a profitable pandemic?
• Conspire with the CDC to spread fear to promote vaccinations?
• Silence whistleblowers who try to go public with the truth?
• Give people cancer via stealth viruses in vaccines?
• Destroy the careers of medical scientists who question Big Pharma?
• Force a medical monopoly on the entire U.S. population via socialist health care legislation?

But of course they would. In fact, the industry is doing all those things right now. And if you don't believe me, just remember that five years ago, no one believed me when I said drug companies were engaged in *criminal conspiracies* to defraud the nation -- something that has now been proven over a nine-year investigation.

----------


## twoggle

> *Big Pharma criminality no longer a conspiracy theory: Bribery, fraud, price fixing now a matter of public record* 
> 
> Monday, July 09, 2012
> by Mike Adams, the Health Ranger
> ....
> *
> Pfizer sued by retailers over anticompetitive scheme*


Mike Adams could have also included a recent release of Pfizer documents with gems such as: 
"They swallowed our story, hook, line and sinker."  and 
"Worse case: We have to attack the trial design if we do not see the results we want" ... "If other endpoints do not deliver, we will also need to strategize on how we provide the data"
See: http://www.bendbulletin.com/article/...107/206260321/

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## RonRules

> Seems to be a divide on both sides. Both ignoring what each other has to say. Some vaccines are just better then others.(some work perfectly and have completely eradicated diseases) But I don't think that is reason enough to discount them all, that would be incredibly dumb.


Whenever a thread gets highly contentious, there's always someone that comes in to try to make peace and get everyone to love one another. 
*YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE!*

This is PRIZEWINNING thread. It's a death-match debate that will eventually save lives.

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## Eagles' Wings

Check out what sailingaway just posted:

Ron Paul:  The Government Can Not Protect Us From All Harm

Beautifully said, Dr. Paul.

----------


## James Madison

> Hmm..getting a little defensive eh?  Refute your claims--that it should be okay to give an infant whose brain is not fully developed vaccines that can hurt their brains or cause hemorrhaging in the brain?  Are you serious?  To inject poisons into an infant and expected them to fight those poisons with no strong immune system, whatsoever, teeters right on criminal intent, IMHO.
> 
> But hey, since your so smart why don't you start a new thread all about microbiology, bacteria and a healthy immune system?  Maybe you can explain how the 1918 Spanish Flu epidemic started.  I want specifics!


You miss the point entirely. If you don't have any knowledge of how the immune system works, how bacteria cause illness, etc how can you be sure all those articles you keep posting aren't just making $#@! up? Ever seen this video?




This is exactly what anti-vaxer do. They prey upon people who have a superficial (at best) knowledge of science. Just smart enough to recognize the buzzwords but not informed enough to sift through the $#@!. Here's another example:

See if you can guess what compound I'm talking about.
It's 100x more toxic than sodium cyanide
Excessive intake can lead to renal failure
It's also essential for bone development and a healthy immune system

It's none other than Vitamin D

See, even those all those chemicals may be in the vaccine you neglect to tell us how much or at what level is the dosage non-toxic. At high enough levels, water is highly toxic. No compound is inherently toxic, nor are they inherently harmless. The quantity is what matters. Here's another example:

Botulism toxin is the most acutely toxic compound known to man
A 20oz soda bottle filled with botulism toxin would be sufficient to kill *every human being on the planet*
A lethal dose is maybe 50-60 nanograms
It's also what women inject into their face to eliminate wrinkles

Again, dosage is key. Yes, all of those chemicals are toxic *at high enough levels*. The anti-vax movement preys upon people who don't understand this fundamental concept. Oh, it sounds scary?! Must be the cause of autism! Which if this were true, why do a very small percentage of the population actually develop autism? Since 95% or more of the population receives their vaccines why does autism appear in such a small number of patients? If these chemicals were that deadly, they shouldn't discriminate to this level. If I inject someone with a lethal dose of sodium cyanide, they will die. All of them. Not some uber-minority. The fact that so few people develop autism indicates that other variables are at play.

----------


## donnay

> You miss the point entirely. 
> 
> (...)



I haven't missed anything.  Again you parrot the establishment arguments.  Most people have to rely the FDA hoping they will not steer them wrong--so they blindly trust them, because they think the FDA is watching out for our best interest.  You're trying to grill me about microbiology--yet, how many Americans aced or know science, medicine, microbiology, and immunology?  Do you not think this is EXACTLY how the establishment gets away with their deception because the average person is baited with fear and ignorance?  Yet, when many scientists, virologists and doctors, quite qualified, expose these rat bastards over and over again, do we see any arrests?  Do we see any change?  As much as this country spends, we should have a serious healthy country--we know this is not true.





> This is exactly what anti-vaxer do. They prey upon people who have a superficial (at best) knowledge of science. Just smart enough to recognize the buzzwords but not informed enough to sift through the $#@!.


And the Pro-vaxers tout that if you do not get a vaccine you will die!!  The average American have so many deficiencies, one of which, at the highest levels is Vitamin D.  It is important to have blood tested for levels on vitamin D-- between 50/70 ng/ml for optimal healthy benefits.  The best lab to have your blood analyzed in is DiaSorin (which is whom my Naturopath uses).  They are considered the gold standard using radioimmunoassay (RIA) method to measure your levels.  RIA is the most accurate.



Did you know that when you sit in the sun, for optimal levels of Vitamin D you should not shower with soap for 24 hours in order for the Vitamin D levels to completely soak in the skin?   Did you know showering with soaps will wash the important Vitamin D off?  Did you know darker skin people, have to stay in the sun longer because their skin takes longer to soak in the UVB?  Although different skin tone, require different time spans in the sun in order to get the good Vitamin D levels. 

One of the main reasons this country is so Vitamin D deficient is because for over thirty years the establishment told us that the sun is our enemy.  It will cause skin cancer and that we need to slather on poisonous sun screens to prevent us from skin cancer.  Does too much sun really cause *Melanoma*?  People need the UVB, which is blocked by sunscreens, to absorb the good Vitamin D.

Another study shows that high cholesterol is linked to sunlight, or lack thereof.  http://qjmed.oxfordjournals.org/cont...8/579.full.pdf  However, Big Pharma would lead us to believe that you need their pharmaceuticals, in order to get that bad cholesterol down.  There is no such thing as *bad cholesterol*.  Lipid hypothesis of coronary heart disease (CHD) has seriously lack in the proof that pharmaceutical interventions will stop CHD.  The side effects of the cholesterol medication are far more dangerous to our health then their hypothesis gives, which allegedly links cholesterol to CHD--yet another scare tactic that is more and more looking like pseudoscience at best.

Nevertheless, Vitamin D is essential for a good immune system and a good immune system is key in fighting off disease--hence that is why I know that Vitamin D is better than any vaccine out there.

----------


## RonRules

*Hey, it's past 5:00 PM EST!!*

Did I win?

----------


## RonRules

> See if you can guess what compound I'm talking about.
> It's 100x more toxic than sodium cyanide
> Excessive intake can lead to renal failure
> It's also essential for bone development and a healthy immune system
> 
> It's none other than Vitamin D
> 
> See, even those all those chemicals may be in the vaccine you neglect to tell us how much or at what level is the dosage non-toxic. At high enough levels, water is highly toxic. No compound is inherently toxic, nor are they inherently harmless. The quantity is what matters. Here's another example:
> 
> ...


Man that was a great post. I'm worried I may only come in in second place for Kathy88's thread contest.

----------


## RonRules

Further outrage about Washington State's 1,300% increase in Whooping Cough cases:
http://io9.com/5928722/this-graph-of...rap-out-of-you



Excerpt:
"Remember: Washington is just one part of a nationwide pertussis outbreak, the likes of which the U.S. hasn't seen in fifty years. Pertussis is a nasty, nasty disease. It's highly contagious, typically manifests in the form of a violent, uncontrollable cough that can persist for months on end (it's also known as the 100 days' cough), and is fatal in an estimated one in 100 infants. With cases on the rise, you owe it to yourself and those around you to talk with your doctor about getting vaccinated, or getting a booster."

In the comments:
"Extremely similar to truthers. Most of the people I know who are truthers are also anti-vaccinations."

----------


## RonRules

*The Australians are waking up:*

http://www.mamamia.com.au/health-wel...ats-in-a-name/

If you haven’t heard of the Australian Vaccination Network (aka the anti-vaxxers) and assume that opposition to vaccines must be confined to a handful of loons living in tree houses, you need to know what sort of people belong to the Australian Vaccination Network (AVN) and what lengths they’ll go to, to distress, frighten and misinform parents.

Until about three years ago whenever any media outlet ran a story about vaccination they would go to founder & President, Meryl Dorey for a comment on behalf of the AVN.

The comments she gave to the media were never positive and rarely factual, relying on bogus science (or no science at all), fear-mongering about the side effects and dangers of vaccinations, and conspiracy theories about the power and influence of pharmaceutical manufacturers.

READ: 9 MYTHS ABOUT VACCINATION BUSTED BY SCIENCE – one of Mamamia’s most-shared posts ever
http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/vacci...-immunisation/

What changed the situation was the death of a baby from whooping cough. Her name was Dana McCaffrey and you can read her tragic story and see and interview with her parents here. At only 3 weeks of age, baby Dana was too young to be vaccinated and her innocent parents were unaware that they lived in the region with the lowest level of vaccination in the state.

*Baby Dana McCaffrey died after contracting whooping cough*

After their baby died, they questioned why health authorities had not warned them about this. “Did I miss a pamphlet in that bag of information they give you in hospital?” Dana’s mother Toni McCaffrey anguished. She hadn’t. No warning had been given.

So Toni and her husband Dave went public to warn other parents of very young children. They have made a point of never suggesting that the AVN or its activities were the cause of the baby’s death, even though the AVN are most active in the area in which they live – the area with a dangerously high number of non-vaccinated children.

This respect has not been reciprocated.

Meryl Dorey attempted to get Dana’s medical records the day before her funeral, claiming that she wanted to see evidence that the baby really had pertussis (the medical name for whooping cough – for which there is no cure or treatment).

Despite repeated requests from Toni and Dave McCaffrey to leave them alone and stop using their baby’s death in the AVN’s false propaganda, Meryl Dorey continues to mention Dana in her attacks on doctors and anyone who supports vaccination.

It was this behaviour by Ms Dorey (and a coordinated effort by many people who gave up their time to expose her actions) that caused a spotlight to be put on her by the media. Now if any news outlet goes to her they are quite likely to mention her anti-vaccine activities.

Most credible news sources refuse to give her oxygen. But still, Meryl Dorey and the AVN continue to speak at public festivals and even in birth classes, trying to scare parents with misinformation about vaccines – something for which there is no scientific proof in any country in the world. Ever.

But has Ms Dorey learnt anything from the way the mainstream media has turned on her? Has she reconsidered what she does and says? Well, no, she hasn’t. Within the last week she has affirmed the official AVN position that members should not contact grieving parents of vaccine-damaged children (mysteriously, none of these children’s stories are ever reported in the media, and the AVN claim this is because of a ‘cover-up’ by big pharmaceutical companies and the government. Really?).

Outrageously however, Meryl Dorey last week encouraged her members to contact parents who lost a child to SIDS to see if they can find out which vaccines ’caused’ the death.

----------


## RonRules

From above link:

*vaccination myths busted by science*

A recent survey found more than two thirds of us research our medications on-line and half of us turn to “Dr Google” for diagnosis. But how do you know the information you are getting online is accurate? Basically, you don’t. In fact studies show if you search Google for “vaccination”, 60% of the results will not only be misleading but downright scary. In a time when vaccine-preventable diseases such as whooping cough and measles are in the news again, it’s critically important to know the facts about vaccination so that you can protect your kids and yourself.

So, let’s take a look at some of the common myths about vaccination and why they’re wrong.

*Myth 1: Vaccines cause autism.*

No doubt you’ve heard this myth – it’s been around for some time now. In a nutshell, there is no solid scientific evidence for a link between vaccines and autism. And believe me, science has been looking for well over 14 years. The theory that vaccines cause autism was first suggested by Andrew Wakefield in 1998. Since then, Wakefield’s paper has been discredited and withdrawn from The Lancet and Wakefield has lost his medical licence for showing “callous disregard” for children’s welfare.

Since 1998 there have been countless large and comprehensive studies looking for a link between vaccines and autism, but the evidence keeps coming up negative. The largest study was done in Denmark and covered all children born from January 1991 through December 1998. A total of 537,303 children of which eighty-two percent were vaccinated for MMR were examined and there was no association between vaccination and the development of autistic disorder.

Further, in August 2011, an exhaustive review of the scientific literature by the Institute of Medicine in the US concluded that overall “few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines”. And when I say “exhaustive review”, I mean 12,000 peer-reviewed articles, covering eight different vaccines were pored over by a committee of 18 experts in the largest review of adverse events associated with vaccines since 1994. It was a thorough and herculean effort concluding that there is no causal relationship between vaccines and autism.

*Myth 2: Vaccines contain mercury*

Mercury was removed from all routine childhood vaccines in Australia in the year 2000 (with the exception of one type of HepB vaccine which contains trace amounts) and it was never in the MMR vaccine. Prior to 2000, thimerosal, an organomercury compound, was used in the manufacturing process of vaccines as a preservative. The process left only trace amounts in the finished product – you ingest more mercury when you eat a can of tuna than you would ever get from a vaccine. Also there are two types of mercury – methyl mercury is the scary environmental toxin that “bioaccumulates” in your body, and ethyl mercury the type found in thimerosal, which does not bioaccumulate.
If thimerosal was implicated in autism, you would expect a significant drop in cases after its removal. Instead the opposite is true – autism rates continue to rise.

*Myth 3: Vaccines contain toxic ingredients*

Jenny McCarthy whose son was diagnosed with autism led the charge against vaccinations claiming there was a link between the condition and immunisations.
Look anywhere on the Internet and you’ll find long scary looking lists of chemicals that anti-vaccine advocates claim are present in vaccines. Things such as anti-freeze, formaldehyde, aluminium phosphate, human fetal tissue, monkey kidney and lung cells, and most famously mercury. They also claim vaccines cause diseases such as AIDS, asthma, autism, cancers, diabetes, leukemia, lupus, SIDS, the list goes on. Many of these claims are quite simply untrue. The rest, without exception, misrepresent the facts.

For example, some viruses are grown on cell lines in the laboratory that were obtained from aborted fetal tissue many years ago. When a virus is grown on cells like these, it is extensively purified and many steps later, prepared into a vaccine. To say there are aborted human fetus cells in the vaccine is a bit like saying there is dirt in apples since they were once grown on a tree that grew in dirt. It’s misleading, scaremongering and simply not true. As for formaldehyde, there are trace amounts of formaldehyde in vaccines but much less than what your body naturally produces everyday.

Some vaccines do contain tiny amounts of metals like aluminium which have been used for over 80 years to increase the effectiveness of the vaccine. These are known as “adjuvants” and work like a booster to kick start the immune system into making antibodies. But just as the “dose makes the poison”, the concentrations of these metals are so low as to not be harmful to the body. Similarly, small doses of paracetamol cure pain but large doses have been known to cause liver failure.

*Myth 4: Vaccines have never been tested.*

All vaccines currently available in Australia must pass stringent safety testing before being approved for use by the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA), which is our government body responsible for regulating pharmaceuticals. Multiple clinical trials for safety and effectiveness are also performed as part of the development process (which takes anywhere between 10 to 15 years, and many millions of dollars) and safety monitoring continues for as long as the vaccine is in use.

For example with the polio vaccine, two million kids were involved in the field trial which was conducted in the US in 1954. More recently, the safety of the new cervical cancer vaccines was studied in large-scale clinical trials involving more than 50,000 people before being licensed for use. Safety continues to be monitored after 35 million doses with the majority of side effects being fever, headache and other minor ailments.

Like any medical procedure there are risks associated with the use of vaccines. This was brought to light in 2010 when dozens of kids suffered high temperatures and convulsions following administration of the flu vaccine. The vaccine was immediately withdrawn from use and the government commenced an investigation.

When people claim that vaccines have “never been tested” they usually mean that they have not undergone randomized placebo controlled trials (RCTs). To do an RCT of a vaccine you would need to take two groups of kids, give one group the vaccine, and the other a placebo, then expose both groups to the disease to see which ones survive. Raise your hand if you can see the problem here…

Not only would such an experiment be unethical, it’s unnecessary. We have extensive evidence demonstrating the effectiveness of vaccines; the eradication of smallpox and the near-eradication of polio from the world are just two examples.

Myth 5: Vaccines don’t work because children who are vaccinated can still get the disease.

No vaccine is 100% effective, and since everybody’s physiology is different, not everyone will develop immunity to the same degree; a vaccine is not a force field. But while you can still breathe in a virus or pick up bacteria off a door handle, the seriousness of the disease will be significantly reduced if you have been vaccinated. In the case of pertussis or whooping cough, severe complications such as seizures and pneumonia occur almost exclusively in unvaccinated people and one in every 200 babies who contract the disease will die.

Also, vaccine-induced and naturally acquired immunity fades over time. Notably, immunity from the whooping cough is not lifelong and infected adults, including child care workers and early years professionals, may be passing the infection on to children. This is why it is so important to get boosters if you are around young kids – especially those who are too young to be vaccinated. If you’re a parent make sure you, the grandparents, and other relatives and friends have boosters before they get to meet baby. Talk to your GP for advice on pertussis boosters (which are free until June 2012 in Victoria).

*Myth 6: Improved living standards, not vaccination have reduced disease*.


The iron lung, the machine used to keep polio patients alive.
The three most significant factors in the reduction of infectious disease have been clean water, sewerage systems, and vaccination. But even in isolation, vaccination has made a huge dent in reducing rates of disease. Following the introduction of the national meningococcal C immunisation program in January 2003, the number of cases decreased by 39% while numbers of people admitted to hospital with the disease was down by 47%. When the Haemophilus influenzae type B (Hib) vaccination was introduced into Australia in 1992 there was a 94% reduction in cases in children under the age of five (the most frequent illnesses caused by Hib are meningitis, septicemia and pneumonia). Yet living conditions in Australia have changed only marginally since 1992 or 2003. Vaccines have also significantly reduced suffering from the complications of infectious disease. Whilst mortality from polio was less than twenty percent, complications such as paralysis, skeletal deformities, and prolonged immobility during confinement in an iron lung caused significant suffering, all of which were eliminated by widespread vaccination.

*Myth 7: Infectious diseases are not serious; children are meant to get them.*

Just because they’re called “childhood diseases” doesn’t mean it’s okay for kids to get them and neither are they necessarily benign. Let’s take a look at whooping cough as an example, since Australia has been the grips of an epidemic for several years now.

Whooping cough is much more than “just a bad cough”. Kids often turn blue from lack of oxygen during coughing fits, they may vomit after severe attacks, and even fracture ribs. There is no cure for whooping cough – antibiotics are given to help stop the transmission to others – you just have to hope your immune system can fight it. Severe complications such as pneumonia and brain damage occur almost exclusively in unvaccinated people and in babies under 6 months of age the symptoms can be severe or life threatening. Whooping cough is also known as the 100-day cough making it a chronic and potentially fatal disease.

If you still think infectious diseases are harmless, wander through your local cemetery one day and note how many children died from diseases that we no longer see in society today – stamped out largely due to mass vaccination. Some of us are old enough to remember the images of children in iron lungs and calipers during the scourge of polio, which was wiped out by vaccination.

*Myth 8: Vaccines cause or spread the diseases they are supposed to prevent.*

It's easy to make vaccinations look terrifying, but they're a child's best friend.
Experiencing a slight temperature and/or a sore arm after getting a vaccine is actually a good thing. While some people misinterpret this as “getting the flu after the flu vaccine” it simply indicates that your immune system is responding. Vaccines work by priming your immune system with a part of the disease, usually inactivated particles or a fraction of the organism, so that it can make antibodies. This means next time you come across the disease in the environment your body is ready with an arsenal of antibodies to attack it before it can make you really sick.

Vaccines are not 100% safe – no medical intervention is without risk – and mistakes do happen. In the 1950s in America there was a spate of cases of polio caused by the vaccine, but this was due to a mistake in the manufacturing process and was quickly corrected. Regulations, monitoring and quality control has greatly increased since that time, meaning incidents such as this are very unlikely to be repeated. The risks associated with the disease greatly outweigh the risk from a vaccine.

*Myth 9: My child’s immune system will be overwhelmed.*

Some parents worry that vaccines weaken or overwhelm the immune system, particularly when given to babies or when multiple vaccines are given at the same time. Children are exposed to many foreign particles on a daily basis through activities such as routine eating, drinking and playing and vaccines contain only a tiny number in comparison to what children encounter every day in their environment. The amount of immune challenges that children fight every day (2,000 — 6,000) is significantly greater than the number of antigens in any combination of vaccines (about 150 for the entire vaccination schedule).

More information: This is certainly not an exhaustive list of myths surrounding vaccination. If you’d like to know more, the following sources contain accurate and easy to read information for parents on vaccination including myths, misconceptions and information about the diseases.

Chain of Protection is an initiative of The National Centre for Immunisation Research and Surveillance (NCIRS) which contains lots of vaccine information, videos and more.
The NCIRS also produce the MMR Decision Aid which is a step-by-step guide to the MMR.
A great general resource for parents wanting to know more about vaccination can be found in the Australian Government publication; Understanding Childhood Immunisation Booklet (highly recommended)
General questions about vaccination can be found on the Australian Governments website; Frequently asked Questions About Immunisation
For more detailed information about vaccines, with references to scientific studies, see the Australian Government’s Handbook; Immunisation Myths and Realities, Responding to Arguments about Immunisation
A complete schedule of the current vaccinations required under the National Immunisation Program can be found here.

*Science Or Celebrity?*

----------


## twoggle

47,500 Cases of Paralysis Due to Vaccine. 
This is what can happen when innocent children are forced to receive drugs
from the pharmaceutical industry. All medical treatment should be voluntary
in a free country.

Rise in paralysis cases after polio vaccine

Cases of non-polio acute flaccid paralysis, better known as AFP, has sharply increased with the increase in the administration of oral polio vaccination (OPV) in the country under the much-acclaimed polio eradication programme.

According to a report by Dr. Neetu Vashisht and Dr. Jacob Puliyel, appearing in the April-June issue of the Indian Journal of Medical Ethics, the incidence of non-polio AFP had gone up by 12 times over and above the normal rates with the onset of the administration OPV 10 years ago. The report appeared at a time when Kerala is getting prepared for another round of OPV on April 15.

Dr. Jacob, also a member of the national technical advisory group on immunisation and of the working group on food and drug regulation in the 12th Five Year Plan, told DC on Friday that there was a definite co-relation between the increase in the number AFP and the irrational administration of OPV.

Normally, he said, the chances of children under the age of 15 getting affected by non-polio AFP are 1-2 per 100,000. But, the rate of non-polio AFP nationally is now 12 times higher than expected. In 2011, an additional 47,500 children were newly paralyzed, over and above the standard rate of 2 children per 100,000 non-polio AFP cases, says the paper in the journal.

Dr. Jacob said the increase in the occurrence of non-polio AFP could be directly linked to the massive increase in the dosage of OPV in the name of eradication. Although, the increase in the non-polio AFP was known for quite some time, it was for the first time that a co-relation was established by collating the data of the national polio surveillance, he said.

It is sad that, even after meticulous surveillance, this large excess in the incidence of paralysis was not investigated as a possible signal.

, nor was any effort made to try and study the mechanism for this spurt in non-polio AFP.

According to Dr Jacob, the dream of eradicating polio will remain a mirage due to the existence of residual samples of samples virus stored in laboratories, by vaccine-derived polioviruses or by poliovirus that is chemically synthesized with malignant intent.

The increase in non-polio AFP might have been caused by the increase in OPV, leading to virus strains other than that of causing polio getting active, he said.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/chann...io-vaccine-234

----------


## RonRules

> This is what can happen when innocent children are forced to receive drugs from the pharmaceutical industry. All medical treatment should be voluntary in a free country.
> ... has *sharply increased* with the increase in the administration of oral polio vaccination (OPV) in the country under the *much-acclaimed polio eradication* programme.


I don't believe your article one bit. 

1) It's a Muslim paper. Need I say more?

2) No medical source cited. Might as well be Jenna McCarthy, but she'd get stone to death there, so it's probably not her.

3) The first line self-contradicts. So what method did they use to be "much-acclaimed" if not vaccines?

4) Astroguide, Prayers (Macca Masjid)

Go Darwin Go!

----------


## Kade

Amazing post sir... well thought out. I too am acquainted with Shermer, having met at the Harvard Humanist Chaplaincy event a few years back.  I can't express to you how much I appreciate this post in here. I've been battling these unreasonable scions of atavism for years now... It is so hard to take seriously anyone who is so unbelievably misguided.

----------


## twoggle

> I don't believe your article one bit. 
> 1) It's a Muslim paper. Need I say more?
> 2) No medical source cited. Might as well be Jenna McCarthy, but she'd get stone to death there, so it's probably not her.


They cited a recent paper published in a medical journal. Apparently you didn't read the article. That is a nice touch to not believe anything because it was reported on in what you call a "Muslim" newspaper (which turns out to be the 7th largest newspaper in India). It is okay if you base your science on religious affiliation. I believe that everyone should be free to have their own scientific beliefs and completely free to make their own medical choices (for them and their family) without government force. In case you want a non-"Muslim" reporting of the journal article, scroll down on one of your favorite web pages:
http://www.homeopathyworldcommunity....ource=activity

By the way, that's 47,500 cases of paralysis from a vaccine!

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## donnay

*When It's Time For a Health Check-up, Avoiding Your Doctor Can Save Your Life*

David Mihalovic
*PreventDisease.com*
Thu, 26 Jul 2012 06:42 CDT



Today, more than ever, conventional medicine is one of the biggest threats to your health. You're nearly 300,000 times more likely to die from a preventable medical injury during a hospital stay. Pharmaceutical drugs are 62,000 times more likely to kill you than food supplements and 7,750 times more likely to kill you than herbal remedies. CT scans are a major cause of the breast cancer they are supposed to detect. No ifs, ands or buts about it, Doctors are a leading cause of death and if you want to a live longer life, you'll avoid them.

When Brian Mulroney, the former Canadian prime minister, went for a check-up in 2005 he was given a CT scan.

This discovered two small lumps in his lungs, and surgery was recommended.

The operation was complicated by inflammation of the pancreas -- a serious condition which meant being in intensive care.

He spent six weeks in hospital but was readmitted a month later because a cyst, which had developed on his pancreas because of the inflammation, had to be removed as well.

All those operations, scans, time off work, tests -- but some say such medical testing is worth it if they catch the nodules early and save lives isn't it? Not at all. The nodules weren't cancer -- they were benign.

Essentially, Mulroney had surgery and complications for a 'problem' that hadn't actually been a problem. This happends thousands of times per day across mainstream medicine.

'Body MOT' screening tests -- like those the politician had -- are done for people who are completely well and have no symptoms.

A clampdown on clinics offering MOT health checks to the worried well -- which can include whole body scans -- has been signaled by governments, amid concerns over the exposure of healthy people to unnecessary radiation.

How could an innocent check-up be harmful?

Part of the problem of looking for abnormalities in perfectly well people is that rather a lot of us have them.

The crux is that most of them won't do us any harm.

There's a well known story of a patient who was rather paranoid about contracting lung cancer. He was never a smoker or regularly exposed to second hand smoke, but his father had lung cancer so he thought his genes predetermined his fate. The patient tested himself every year with medical scans he thought would spot the cancer if it were to grow. One day a doctor saw a spot on his lung after a scan and diagnosed it as cancer. The patient underwent all sorts of medical treatment, including radiation. He ended up dying six months later from cancer that actually did form in the lung. Six months later his family reviewed old x-rays from previous scans of his lungs that the patient had completed 15 years earlier. The exact same spot in the same position was always there.

Part of the problem of looking for abnormalities in perfectly well people is that rather a lot of us have them.

So, for example, if you do MRI scans of the brain in people who are healthy, you will find that 1.8 percent have a swelling in an artery, an aneurysm, and 1.6 percent will have a meningioma -- a type of brain tumour.

Yet these people have no symptoms and the vast majority will never develop any problems related to what the scan shows.

Many cancers will subside without treatment, however most patients don't want to risk cancer growth. What people don't often think about is that what you do know can often kill you. In other words, the knowledge of cancer can actually promote further cancer growth if that's what you believe. Psychological studies and assessments on patients have established that 78% of people are more likely to become ill if they believe they will contract the illness from a coworker or family member.

When pathologists examine prostate glands from men who have died from an unrelated cause, they find that between 45 and 80 percent of the men -- particularly if they're older -- have prostate cancer.

Yet this hadn't caused them harm and wasn't responsible for their deaths. If those same men sought treatment for this condition, their risk of death increases and this correlates well with their participation in conventional medical care.

Or take heavy smokers, screened for lung cancer using CT scans. In at least 20 percent of patients, cancer is picked up on the scan -- but this is a 'cancer' that would grow slowly and would not affect the person's life span.

In a Swedish study of 60,000 women, 70 percent of the mammographically detected tumors weren't tumors at all. These "false positives" aren't just financial and emotional strains, they may also lead to many unnecessary and invasive biopsies. In fact, 70 to 80 percent of all positive mammograms do not, upon biopsy, show any presence of cancer.

Perhaps one of the most damning reports was a large scale study by Johns Hopkins published in 2008 in the prestigious Journal of the American Medical Association's Archives of Internal Medicine (Arch Intern Med. 2008;168[21:2302-2303). In the Background to the research it was pointed out that breast cancer diagnosis rates increased significantly in four Scandanavian counties after women there began receiving mammograms every two years.

In the study looking at two large scale groups of women in Norway, one having a mammogram every two years for 6 years, the other just at the end, the researchers themselves went on to conclude that they cannot link the increased incidence of breast cancer diagnosis simply to more real cases being detected because the rates among regularly screened women were significantly higher than rates among women of the same age who only received a mammogram at the end of the same six year period.

You might think picking this up is good, safe medicine?

Sadly, it's not. These people are 'overdiagnosed' -- they're told they have cancer, when it won't go on to cause symptoms or an earlier death.

But they are treated as though they have a life-threatening condition. This means they get the risks of treatment, without the benefits.

Medical mistake kill 100,000 Americans per year. The total cost of medical mistakes, lost income and production, cost of disability and health care, totals $17 to 29 billion a year. Dr. Mercola lists a brilliant series of top reasons to avoid your doctor. Everything from mammograms to depression and high blood pressure are a greater risk to your health diagnosed by a medical doctor rather than undiagnosed.

Everything abnormal gets treated with treated drugs, operations, radiotherapy or chemotherapy. What is wrong with that picture?

If you are overdiagnosed -- given a label of a disease which was never going to harm you -- there's no chance you can benefit from the treatment. You can only get side-effects.

Overdiagnosis is one of the enormous issues in modern medicine, but most patients don't know it. This is partly because of a strange paradox.

The more unnecessary treatments that are given, the more people believe their lives have been saved by screening. The opposite is true.

Giving lots of people a 'false alarm' from a disease they were never going to die of -- and then pronouncing them 'cured' -- makes it seem as though screening was successful.

In other words, the more popular a screening test is, the worse the test may be.

What if these people knew that the stress of the diagnosis and treatment was for a cancer that wasn't going to harm them?

In reality, overdiagnosis is a risk in most screening tests, such as the national screening programme for breast cancer.

Around a quarter of women diagnosed with breast cancer as a result of routine mammograms are overdiagnosed -- they were treated with surgery, chemotherapy or radiotherapy for a cancer that wouldn't have harmed them.

What patients need to remember is that the pros of screening should outweigh the cons. This is rarely considered by the patient and not properly conveyed by the doctor.

For example, the are many clinics who offer an ultrasound of the arteries in the neck for those who have been at high risk for stroke.

A narrowing of these arteries can lead to a stroke. So wouldn't it be a good idea to find out about them before they cause one?

It sounds temptingly logical. In people who have had a stroke or a ministroke, having this scan to see if further treatment is needed is very useful.

But for people who are completely well and haven't had a stroke or mini-stroke, the research is compelling -- for not doing it.

The problem is that an operation to correct the narrowing of arteries is more dangerous -- with complications including death and actually causing a stroke -- than the risk of a stroke happening through not operating.

This balance of risks is the reason why the ultrasound is not offered in most countries in the world.

Margaret McCartney, a GP based in Scotland was recently involved with an investigation from the independent consumer organisation Which?, who telephoned five such clinics that used CT and MRI scans to get further information about the tests they ran.

Three of them didn't mention the risks of overdiagnosis, and one only partially covered the risks.

Surely if you are going to spend thousands you would want to have the potential for harm spelled out at the first opportunity?

Potential patients need to know what they're getting into -- well before they get into the costly screening scanner.

If you want to truly prevent disease you must avoid conventional medicine and take care of your own health. This includes, avoiding as many chemicals and pollutants as possible. Drinking clean, chemical-free water without fluoride. Exposing your body to sunlight. Choosing the right diet strategy for your body type while avoiding genetically modified foods. Exercising while trying to minimize stress and anxiety. Avoiding pharmaceutical drugs and vaccines at all costs. Most of all, don't give another person power over your health regardless of their credentials. Take control because nobody knows your body like you do.

Dave Mihalovic is a Naturopathic Doctor who specializes in vaccine research, cancer prevention and a natural approach to treatment.

----------


## RonRules

> Amazing post sir... well thought out. I too am acquainted with Shermer, having met at the Harvard Humanist Chaplaincy event a few years back.  I can't express to you how much I appreciate this post in here. I've been battling these unreasonable scions of atavism for years now... It is so hard to take seriously anyone who is so unbelievably misguided.


Thank you.  These points of view are badly needed in THIS forum, and of course thousands of other forums.

What's so amazing to me, having posted mostly in the vote flipping threads, is the general mistrust of science here. I would go as far as saying that several RPF'ers don't "believe" in math.

----------


## RonRules

> t is okay if you base your science on religious affiliation.


NO it's not OK.

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## RonRules

Why don't you go ask those two actors if they like their T-shirts edited like that?

----------


## donnay

*If Vaccines Are Safe, Then Why Did Congress Give Manufacturers Special Legal Immunity? Why Are They Above the Law?*

by *Thomas Corriher* 

You had better learn about the (U.S.) National Vaccine Injury Act before you roll up your child's sleeve.

"The NVICA, a 'no-fault' compensation system, was passed in 1986 to shield the pharmaceutical industry from civil litigation due to problems associated with vaccines.  Under the law, families of vaccine-injured persons are required to file a petition which may be heard by a Special Master in the vaccine court.  Successful claims are paid from a Trust Fund that is managed by the Department of Health and Human Services, with Justice Department attorneys acting as the legal representatives of the Fund.  Sadly, it has been reported that less than 25% of those who qualify for a hearing actually receive compensation.

"Processing a claim through the vaccine court can take up to 10 years, and in the end, no blame or culpability is assigned.  In the mean time, the heartbreak continues, medical bills pile up and the daily potential for more children to be harmed goes on due to government protection of products that are believed to be the 'sterling backbones' of our country’s public health policy.

"Who can parents and vaccine-injured adults hold accountable for injuries caused by vaccines? The system is designed so that no one -- neither a person nor an entity -- can be tagged with accountability: Not the vaccine manufacturer; not the doctor who recommended the vaccines nor the person who administered them; not the Advisory Committee of Immunization Practices members (ACIP) who added the vaccine to the pediatric schedule; not the IOM members (Institute of Medicine) who perpetuate the mantra 'vaccines are safe and effective' and stonewall opportunities for change and improvement.  No one is to blame, that is, except the 'defective child' who could not tolerate the immunological onslaught caused by the vaccines."

-- Dr. Sherri Tenpenny

Your doctor could literally inject you with gasoline, call it a "vaccination", and be 100% legally immune from consequences.  Accountability, in the case of vaccines, is against the law.

Although, it gets even worse.  If you attempt to litigate against any member of the corrupt vaccine industry, then the U.S Department of Justice will assign a dream team of attorneys to make sure that you fail; using our tax dollars, of course.  In fact, the U.S. Department of Justice is officially advertising for these attorney positions on-line.  You can find this job offering at: http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/attorney-vac-ad-2009.htm. (UPDATE: As usual, the offending page "disappeared" after we reported this story.  You can read our archived version, and use it as a step in your own research.  Please notify us whenever one of our sources "disappears".)

Here's a few excerpts from that D.O.J. job offering page.

"About the Office: The Civil Division, Torts Branch, is seeking an experienced attorney for a position in the Office of Vaccine Litigation. Trial attorneys in the Vaccine Litigation Group represent the interests of the Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services in all cases filed in the U.S. Court of Federal Claims under the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act. The cases involve claims of injury as a result of the receipt of certain vaccines.

"Responsibilities and Opportunity Offered: The position offers a unique experience in public service. The legal and medical issues at stake in each case vary greatly.  Attorneys in the section independently manage heavy case loads, and while streamlined procedures are utilized, cases frequently involve complex liability and damages issues.  The position involves significant trial practice. Vaccine staff attorneys are obliged to ensure that the Vaccine Trust Fund, from which damage awards are paid, is protected and, where eligibility criteria are met, that fair compensation is distributed to those whom Congress has intended.  Attorneys appear frequently before the Office of Special Masters in the U.S. Court of Federal Claims, and also appear before the judges of the Court, as well as in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit when handling appeals."

We know what they mean by "fair compensation", don't we?  The lawyers will be salaried up to $133,543 by the Federal Government (using our tax dollars) to make sure that children with disorders such as autism never get the assistance that they need, in order to protect the mythology of vaccine safety.  I really like how the D.O.J. refers to it as a "public service".

By the way, you did know that no vaccine has ever undergone extensive, long-term, double-blind testing, right?  We're the test.

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> *If Vaccines Are Safe, Then Why Did Congress Give Manufacturers Special Legal Immunity? Why Are They Above the Law?*
> 
> by *Thomas Corriher* 
> 
> You had better learn about the (U.S.) National Vaccine Injury Act before you roll up your child's sleeve.
> 
> "The NVICA, a 'no-fault' compensation system, was passed in 1986 to shield the pharmaceutical industry from civil litigation due to problems associated with vaccines.  Under the law, families of vaccine-injured persons are required to file a petition which may be heard by a Special Master in the vaccine court.  Successful claims are paid from a Trust Fund that is managed by the Department of Health and Human Services, with Justice Department attorneys acting as the legal representatives of the Fund.  Sadly, it has been reported that less than 25% of those who qualify for a hearing actually receive compensation.
> 
> "Processing a claim through the vaccine court can take up to 10 years, and in the end, no blame or culpability is assigned.  In the mean time, the heartbreak continues, medical bills pile up and the daily potential for more children to be harmed goes on due to government protection of products that are believed to be the 'sterling backbones' of our country’s public health policy.
> ...


+rep

Most adults/parents/guardians don't have this info.

----------


## donnay

*The Hepatitis B Vaccine Scam*

by *Thomas Corriher* 

The mandatory Hepatitis B Vaccine which is given to infants at birth is provided for profit alone. It does not benefit the infants it is given to. In this posting, I shall explain why I believe this is true.  Allow me to start by telling you how one may contract Hepatitis B, so that you will understand that it is as difficult to catch as AIDS. As with AIDS, the main people at risk are drug users, and people with multiple sexual partners. It may be transmitted in one of the following scenario's:

    Sexual intercourse
    Being born of a mother who is infected
    The use of unclean hypodermic needles

The vaccine is only effective for 7 years, so by the time the child is in a situation in which he could be at risk, the vaccine will no longer be effective. With children who have been born of an infected mother, the children already have the disease; and again, the vaccine is of no use. In order to help these children, completely safe testing could take place before the pregnant mother gives birth. There are options which can be provided to infected mothers in order to stop the transmission. For the third scenario, the use of unclean needles in America is remote, and it is unlikely that any of the children will shoot-up with illegal drugs from their local dealer before their seventh birthday.

On top of the lack of need for vaccinations, is the risk that comes along with them. Along with being mercury based, this vaccine is said to be one of the primary causes of neurological problems such as ADD and autism, which points toward its degenerative effects upon the brain. The really unlucky children can die as soon as the day after this vaccination. For most children, the risk of a serious vaccine reaction is around 100 times greater than the risk of contracting hepatitis B, and the risk may be worse for younger children.

The most serious reported adverse effects of the vaccine seem to be restricted to Caucasians. Despite this, the main long-term safety study was conducted with Alaskan natives to avoid statistical and scientific "complications" (ie. revealing disturbing facts which are bad for business), and the other studies typically involved Asians.

In 1996, 54 cases of the hepatitis B were reported to the CDC (Center for Disease Control) in the 0-1 age group. Considering that there were 3.9 million births that year, the likelihood of Hepatitis B in that age group was 0.001%. In the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS), there were 1,080 total reports of adverse reactions from Hepatitis B vaccinations in the same year and age group. Forty-Seven deaths were officially attributed to the vaccine.

For every child with hepatitis B, there were 20 reported to have had severe vaccine complications. Bear in mind that only 10% of the reactions are believed to be reported to VAERS, so this means that conventional medicine is harming roughly 200 children for every child it is protecting from Hepatitis B. Even more damning is that these numbers assume the vaccine is always effective, which it is not.

Only 1.3% of those exposed to Hepatitis B will develop a serious complication. So, coupled with the low risk of infection, its small likelihood of causing serious harm, and the well-documented serious dangers of the vaccine: why are we vaccinating infants?

It's All About The Money.

The manufacturers of the Hepatitis B vaccine are paid $1 billion a year for this vaccine which harms so many children. With that money, they can sway a lot of opinions, and they do. A manufacturer of the vaccine was asked at a 1997 Illinois Board of Health hearing to cite his evidence that the vaccine is safe for a 1-day old infant. The representative replied:

"We have none. Our studies were done on 5- and 10-year-olds."

Please think before you allow your child to be vaccinated.

----------


## donnay

Here's how the propaganda goes...

*Children's Programming On P.B.S. Is Admitted Propaganda For Vaccine Industry and Is Sponsored by Governmental Money*

by *Thomas Corriher* 

The Department of Health and Human Services (parent of the F.D.A.) admits to funding this supposedly independent children's program on P.B.S., and the governmental agency features it on its official YouTube channel.  This excerpt is from the show, Sid the Science Kid.  Brainwashing young children about vaccines in order for the government's industry partners to make a killing is so scientific, and all.  P.B.S. is turning into a soviet-style state propaganda system in much the same way that the public schools have.  This is thoroughly nauseating, and it is perhaps best if we let this video speak for itself.

----------


## donnay

*Vaccine Ingredients and Vaccine Secrets*

by *Sarah Cain*

There has been much recent concern regarding vaccines given to children, and their possible side effects. Particularly highlighted is the link between early childhood vaccines and autism. This article provides a list of known ingredients inside vaccines, and their documented side effects. It will aid you in making informed decisions, which is something the industry is against. The corporations involved have attempted to suppress this information for decades. Readers are advised that there are extra chemicals and toxins which are not mentioned, because we based this list upon the ingredients which are public knowledge. If you know of anything we have missed, please contact us. It seems that the more we research this topic: the more sinister it becomes.

The connection to autism has already been repeatedly and scientifically established, and there are many other conditions caused by vaccines which are yet to be proven. Vaccines are said to prevent certain diseases. However, the chances of catching these diseases are incredibly remote, and the horrid side effects from vaccines are so common that vaccines cause much more harm than good. The chance that a particular vaccine will actually offer effective protection varies between 35% and 90%, and almost all of them expire. In some cases, vaccines will infect the patient with the very disease it is meant to offer protection from. Do you think they would do the right thing, and treat you for free?

"A single vaccine given to a 6 pound infant is the equivalent of giving a 180 lb. adult 30 vaccines in one day."

— Dr. Boyd Haley

Vaccine Ingredient: Aborted human fetus tissue and human albumin

Did you ever wonder where aborted babies really went? Now you know. From a health perspective, the tissues from another human (not just animals) are still foreign, and therefore toxic to the body. One industry-friendly web site matter-of-factly boasted: "The cells reproduce themselves, so there is no need to abort additional fetuses to sustain the culture supply. Viruses are collected from the diploid cell cultures and then processed further to produce the vaccine itself". The Liberty Counsel reported: "You may be surprised to learn that some vaccinations are derived from aborted fetal tissue. Vaccines for chicken pox, Hepatitis-A, and Rubella were produced solely from aborted fetal tissue".

Vaccine Ingredient: Formaldehyde

This is used in vaccines as a tissue fixative, and a preservative. Formaldehyde is oxidized to become formic acid.  Formic acid is the main ingredient of bee and ant venom.  Concentrated, it is corrosive and an irritant. While absorbing the oxygen of the body, it may lead to acidosis, nerve, liver, and kidney damage. 

According to the National Research Council, fewer than 20% but perhaps more than 10% of the general population may be susceptible to extreme formaldehyde toxicity, and may react to exposure at any level. Formaldehyde is ranked as one of the most hazardous compounds on ecosystems and human health, according to the Environmental Defense Fund. These findings are for environmental exposure, and therefore, the dangers are much greater for the formaldehyde included in vaccines, since it is injected directly into the blood.

Known 'side effects' of formaldehyde:

    Eye, nasal, throat and pulmonary irritation
    Acute sense of smell due to altered tissue proteins
    Anaemia
    Antibodies formation
    Apathy; blindness
    Blood in urine
    Blurred vision
    Body aches
    Bronchial spasms
    Bronchitis
    Burns nasal and throat
    Cardiac impairment
    Palpitations and arrhythmias
    Central nervous system depression
    Changes in higher cognitive functions
    Chemical sensitivity
    Chest pains and tightness
    Chronic vaginitis; colds
    Coma
    Conjunctivitis
    Constipation
    Convulsions
    Corneal erosion
    Cough
    Death
    Destruction of red blood cells
    Depression
    Dermatitis
    Diarrhoea
    Difficulty concentrating
    Disorientation; dizziness
    Ear aches
    Eczema
    Emotional upsets
    Ethmoid polyps
    Fatigue
    Fecula bleeding
    Foetal asphyxiation
    Flu-like or 'common cold' illness
    Frequent urination with pain
    Gastritis
    Astrointestinal inflammation
    Headaches
    Haemolytic anaemia
    Haemolytic haematuria
    Hoarseness
    Hyperactive airway disease
    Hyperactivity
    Hypomenstrual syndrome
    Immune system sensitizer
    Impaired (short) attention span
    Impaired capacity to attain attention
    Wheezing



    Inability or difficulty swallowing
    Inability to recall words and names
    Inconsistent IQ profiles
    Inflammatory diseases of the reproductive organs
    Intestinal pain
    Intrinsic asthma
    Irritability
    Jaundice
    Joint pain
    Aches and swelling
    Kidney pain
    Laryngeal spasm
    Loss of memory
    Loss of sense of smell
    Loss of taste
    Malaise
    Menstrual and testicular pain
    Menstrual irregularities
    Metallic taste
    Muscle spasms and cramps
    Nasal congestions
    Crusting and mucosa inflammation
    Nausea
    Nosebleeds
    Numbness and tingling of the forearms and finger tips
    Pale clammy skin
    Partial laryngeal paralysis
    Pneumonia
    Post nasal drip
    Pulmonary oedema
    Reduced body temperature
    Retarded speech pattern
    Ringing or tingling in the ear
    Schizophrenic-type symptoms
    Sensitivity to sound
    Shock
    Short term memory loss
    Shortness of breath
    Skin lesions
    Sneezing
    Sore throat
    Spacey feeling
    Speaking difficulty
    Sterility
    Swollen glands
    Tearing
    Thirst
    Tracheitis
    Tracheobronchitis
    Vertigo
    Vomiting blood
    Vomiting

Vaccine Ingredient: Mercury

Mercury compounds are used in vaccines as preservatives.  The toxicity of mercury has been repeatedly ignored in the area of vaccines by the medical establishment and oversight agencies. Mercury is the second most poisonous element known to mankind (second only to uranium and its derivatives). Brain neurons rapidly and permanently disintegrate in the presence of mercury within 30 minutes of exposure. Mercury is also known to change a body's chromosomes, so I especially worry about those who have had mercurybased dental fillings (which are the standard 'silver type), for these people are constantly being filled with this cumulative poison from the mercurys vapors as well as direct contact inside the mouth. 

The U.S. has known about the potential problems of Thimerosal (the preservative in vaccines that contains mercury) for many years. The World Health Organization voiced concerns about it in 1990. 

Mercury is a cumulative poison, which means a body has difficultly removing it, and that levels of it in the body will grow significantly over time. Enormous amounts of mercury can accumulate over a lifetime. During a typical day of routine vaccines, infants sometimes receive the same amount of mercury as the absolute maximum set by the World Health Organization for 3 months of adult exposure.

The following was taken from a website affiliated with the National Institutes of Health:

"Symptoms of high exposure to this class of mercury based compounds includes: Aphthous, Stomatitis, Satarrhal gingivitis, nausea, liquid stools, pain, liver disorder, injury to the cardiovascular system and hematopoietic system, deafness and ataxia. Death. Headache, paresthesia of the tongue, lips, fingers and toes, other non-specific dysfunctions, metallic taste, slight gastrointestinal disturbances, excessive flatus and diarrhea may occur. Acute poisoning may cause gastrointestinal irritation and renal failure. Early signs of severe poisoning include fine tremors of extended hands, loss of side vision, slight loss of coordination in the eyes, speech, writing and gait, inability to stand or carry out voluntary movements, occasional muscle atrophy and flexure contractures, generalized myoclonic movements, difficulty understanding ordinary speech, irritability and bad temper progressing to mania, stupor, coma, mental retardation in children, skin irritation, blisters and dermatitis. Other symptoms include chorea, athetosis, tremors, convulsions, pain and numbness in the extremities, nephritis, salivation, loosening of the teeth, blue line on the gums, anxiety, mental depression, insomnia, hallucinations and central nervous system effects. Exposure may also cause irritation of the eyes, mucous membranes and upper respiratory tract."

Complete intolerance to Thimerosal, the mercury containing preservative, is known to develop from previous vaccines. The vaccines stimulate the immune system and cause sensitization. The effects of mercury differ between inorganic, organic, and metallic mercury compounds. The neurologic toxicity symptoms caused by mercury compounds have a delayed onset after exposure, so few, if any of these symptoms will be noticed at the time of exposure. This explains the suspected long-term neurological symptoms of learning disabilities and behavior disorders associated with vaccines, which did not exist in previous generations. 

Vaccine Ingredient: Antifreeze 

Antifreeze (ethylene glycol) is an ingredient of the polio vaccine. It is classified as a "very toxic material". It would take less than a tablespoonful to kill a 20-pound dog with this substance. Pet owners are generally very wary around this dangerous substance, knowing that only a small amount is fatal. I can only imagine the effects that this has on the human body when directly injected into the blood stream.

Antifreeze can eventually lead to kidney, liver, blood and central nervous system (CNS) disorders. It is quite harmful and likely fatal if swallowed. Effects include behavioral disorders, drowsiness, vomiting, diarrhoea, visual disturbances, thirst, convulsions, cyanosis, rapid heart rate, CNS stimulation, depression, cardiopulmonary effects, kidney disorders. It can also lead to liver and blood disorders. It produces reproductive and developmental effects in experimental animals.

Source for side effects: www.americool.com/MSDS-ETHYLENE-GLYCOL.pdf You will need a P.D.F. viewer such as Adobe Reader to view the above file. Click here to download.

Vaccine Ingredient: Aluminum

Aluminum is a suspected carcinogen. It is a cardiovascular or blood toxicant, neurotoxicant, and respiratory toxicant. It has been implicated as a cause of brain damage, and is a suspected factor in Alzheimer's Disease, dementia, convulsions, and comas. It has been placed on at least 2 federal regulatory lists. 

Vaccine Ingredient: 2-Phenoxyethanol

This is a suspected carcinogen. A developmental and reproductive toxicant. It is also a metabolic poison, which means that it interferes with the metabolism of all cells. This is the primary factor in the formation of cancer cells. It is capable of disabling the immune system's primary response. It also contains phenol (see below for explanation).  Vaccine Ingredient: Phenol This is a suspected carcinogen, and a cardiovascular and blood toxicant. Also known as carbolic acid this is a developmental toxicant, gastrointestinal or liver toxicant, kidney toxicant, neurotoxicant, respiratory toxicant, skin and sense organ toxicant. It has been placed on at least 8 federal regulatory lists. 

Vaccine Ingredient: Phenol

This is a suspected carcinogen, and a cardiovascular and blood toxicant.   It is also known as Carbolic acid; this is a developmental toxin, gastrointestinal or liver toxin, kidney toxin, neurotoxin, respiratory toxin, skin or sense organ toxin. It has been placed on at least 8 federal regulatory watch lists.

Vaccine Ingredient: Methanol

This is a volatile, flammable, poisonous liquid alcohol. In industry, it is used as a solvent, and an antifreeze compound in fuel. In the body it is metabolized into formaldehyde (as described earlier).  Whilst it can be found naturally in the pectin that is present in some common fruits, the naturally occurring version is only in minute quantities, and the natural form is not known to cause harmful effects. 

Vaccine Ingredient: Borax (sodium tetraborate decahydrate)

Traditionally used as a pesticide and ant killer. It is suspected to be a cardiovascular or blood toxicant, endocrine toxicant, gastrointestinal or liver toxicant, and neurological toxicant. It was found to cause reproductive damage and reduced fertility rates in studies on rats. It is already banned in foods in the United States, but astonishingly, it is still allowed for direct injection into the blood through vaccines. It is toxic to all cells, and has a slow excretion rate through the kidneys.  Kidney retention and toxicity are the greatest. It has a cascading effect, causing liver degeneration, cerebral edema, and gastroenteritis. 

Vaccine Ingredient: Glutaraldehyde

Glutaraldehyde is always toxic, causing severe eye, nose, throat and lung irritations, along with headaches, drowsiness, and dizziness. The effects mirror the chemical warfare agent known as nerve gas. It is poisonous if ingested, and known to cause birth defects in experimental animals. The effects of direct injection into the blood to bypass the process of ingestion are unknown. It is often used to clean medical equipment. In hospital accidents involving environmental exposure, it has been known to cause the following symptoms:

    Throat and lung irritation
    Asthma, asthma-like symptoms, and breathing difficulty
    Nose irritation, sneezing, and wheezing
    Nosebleed
    Burning eyes and conjunctivitis
    Rash-contact and/or allergic dermatitis
    Staining of the hands (brownish or tan)
    Hives
    Headaches
    Nausea

Vaccine Ingredient: Monosodium Glutamate (MSG)

Monosodium Glutamate is a synthetic flavor enhancer. In a 1995 report by the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology, two groups of people were defined as intolerant of MSG. This includes those who eat large quantities of MSG (it is used in lots of processed foods as a flavor enhancer), and those with "poorly controlled asthma". Our research indicates that anyone can suffer after consuming Monosodium Glutamate.  In the 1995 report, which was contracted by the F.D.A., there was public admission that MSG yields the following symptoms:

    Burning sensation in the back of the neck, forearms and chest
    Numbness in the back of the neck, radiating to the arms and back
    Tingling, warmth, and weakness in the face, temples, upper back, neck and arms
    Facial pressure or tightness
    Chest pain
    Headache
    Nausea
    Rapid heartbeat
    Bronchospasm (difficulty breathing) in MSG-intolerant people with asthma
    Drowsiness
    Weakness

Note that this is the shortlist (the one with side effects the FDA actually admits), and it does not consider the higher toxicity of direct injection into the blood. The long list, which is about 15 times longer, includes heart attacks, especially in young people with magnesium deficiencies. Injections of glutamate in laboratory animals have resulted in rapid damage to nerve cells in the brain. MSG is in a special class of chemicals called excitotoxins, which are known to directly attack brain cells. In 1978, MSG was banned from baby foods and other baby products for infants who were less than one year of age, because the American Academy of Pediatrics and the National Academy of Sciences expressed concerns. It is now being used in these products again, along with vaccines.

Vaccine Ingredients: Sulfate and phosphate compounds

These can trigger severe allergies in children which may last throughout their lives to permanently impair their immune systems.

Vaccine Ingredient: Ammonium Sulfate

This is another carcinogen. Ammonium sulfate is prepared by mixing ammonia with sulfuric acid. It is used as a chemical fertilizer for alkaline soils to lower the pH of the soil. In the body, it stresses the immune system by causing acidosis.  Ammonium sulfate is also a gastrointestinal (liver) toxicant, neurotoxicant, and respiratory toxicant. 

Vaccine Ingredient: Gentamicin Sulfate

This is a strong antibiotic, which is often used for life-threatening illnesses (eg. pneumonia). 

Known side effects:

    Muscle twitching
    Numbness
    Seizures increased BP
    Alopecia
    Purpura P
    Pseudotumor cerebri
    Photosensitivity when used topically
    Transient irritation
    Burning
    Stinging
    Itching
    Inflammation
    Angioneurotic edema
    Urticaria
    Vesicular and maculopapular dermatitis
    Mydriasis
    Conjunctival paresthesia
    Conjunctival hyperemia
    Nonspecific conjunctivitis,
    Conjunctival epithelial defects
    Lid itching and swelling
    Bacterial/fungal corneal ulcers.

Vaccine Ingredient: Neomycin Sulfate

When researching this, we discovered the neurotoxicity of neomycin sulfate following oral use as an antibiotic. We can only wonder about what damage this causes when injected directly into the blood of infants. It interferes with vitamin B6 absorption, which is the cause of a rare form of epilepsy, and mental retardation. Adult patients given neomycin as an antibiotic are typically placed under close clinical observation (ie. hospitalized), so that intensive care intervention is immediately available. Neurotoxicity has been reported, along with nephrotoxicity, and permanent bilateral auditory ototoxicity.  Sometimes vestibular toxicity is present in patients with normal renal function when treated with higher or longer doses than recommended.

Vaccine Ingredient: Tri(n)butylphosphate

This is yet another carcinogen. This is a kidney toxicant, and a neurotoxicant. It is more hazardous than most chemicals in 2 out of 3 ranking systems, on at least 1 federal regulatory list.

Vaccine Ingredient: Polymyxin B

This is another antibiotic.  Injection of this is generally avoided by doctors (except in the case of vaccines), due to "severe pain at injection sites, particularly in infants and children".

Known side effects:

    Albuminuria
    Cylindruria
    Azotemia
    Rising blood levels without any increase in dosage.
    Facial flushing
    Dizziness progressing to ataxia
    Drowsiness
    Peripheral paresthesias: circumoral and stocking-glove.
    Apnea
    Signs of meningeal irritation with intrathecal administration

Vaccine Ingredient: Polysorbate 20 / 80
Emulsifier

This is a suspected carcinogen. It is a known skin and sense organ toxin.  It is verified as a cancer agent in animals.

Vaccine Ingredient: Sorbitol
Sweetener

Diabetic retinopathy and neuropathy may be related to excess sorbitol in the cells of the eyes and nerves leading to blindness. This is another suspected carcinogen. Sorbitol is a gastrointestinal and liver toxicant. 

Vaccine Ingredient: Polyribosylribitol

This is an experimental artificial sweetener. Actually the experimentation is ongoing  in children that is, without the knowledge or consent of their parents. 

Vaccine Ingredient: Beta-Propiolactone

Documented as a verified carcinogen. It is a gastrointestinal (liver) toxicant, respiratory toxicant, skin toxicant, and sense organ toxicant. More hazardous than most chemicals earning a 3 out of 3 in ranking systems. It appears on at least 5 federal regulatory lists. It is ranked as one of the most hazardous compounds to humans. 

Vaccine Ingredient: Amphotericin B

This can cause irreversible kidney damage, and mild liver failure. It has been known to produce severe histamine (allergic) reactions. There are several reports of anemia and cardiac failure. According to the MME definition it is, "a drug used to treat fungus infections. Known allergy to this drug prohibits use. Side effects include blood clots, blood defects, kidney problems, nausea and fever. When used on the skin, allergic reactions can occur". 

Vaccine Ingredients: Animal Organ Tissue and Animal Blood

Animal cell lines are used to culture the viruses in vaccines, so animal tissues and impurities are included in the formulation that is injected. These tissues are unusable and toxic to the body except for when their protein materials are digested to form amino acids through normal food consumption. There is no digestion process for injections.  Injections may also contain many types of animal viruses (see the Animal Viruses section).  Animals used include monkey (kidney), cow (heart), calf (serum), chicken (embryo and egg), duck (egg), pig (blood), sheep (blood), dog (kidney), horse (blood), rabbit (brain), guinea pig, etc..

Vaccine Ingredient: Large Foreign Proteins

In addition to the animal tissue impurities, there are large proteins that are deliberately included, and used for such purposes as adjuvants (substances that aggravate an immune response using their inherent toxicity). Egg album and gelatin (or gelatine, obtained from selected pieces of calf and cattle skins, demineralized cattle bones and pork skin) are in several vaccines. Casein (milk protein) is in the triple antigen (DPT vaccine). When injected, these normally harmless proteins are toxic to the body. Hence the immune system "response". The immune system is intentionally stressed by this invasion to produce an unnatural sensitization to all the ingredients. The body will become further sensitive to these substances in the future, rather than becoming immune to them. So, the basic premise of vaccinations which the public has been sold is false.  This explains why bizarre allergies such as lactose intolerance, egg, and nut allergies have suddenly become common in recent history. 

Vaccine Ingredient: Latex

This is included in the hepatitis B vaccine, which is given routinely to health workers. The high occurrence of the latex allergies among nurses is due to their sensitization to latex through the large amounts of chemical rubber which is injected into them. These vaccines produce a panicked immune response. These nurses will suffer with this allergy permanently. Such allergic reactions can be life-threatening.  This vaccine is now routinely given to newborn babies in many countries, including Australia, and the United States.

Vaccine Ingredient: Animal Viruses 

Some of these can be particularly alien to the human body. The most frequently documented and publicized example is the monkey virus SV40. The virus is harmless in monkeys, but it stimulates rare cancers when injected into humans producing brain (tumors), bone (e.g. multiple myeloma), lungs (mesothelioma), and lymphoid tissue (lymphoma). Monkey Virus SV40 has only appeared in people born in the last 20 years (The Journal of Infectious Diseases, Sept. 1999), long after the manufacturer claimed to have "cleaned up" the polio vaccines where it was found. Such cases include the late Alexander Horwin, both of whose parents tested negative for SV40. Therefore, recent cases cannot just be blamed on inheritance from parents who received the vaccine (see www.ouralexander.org). This proves that manufacturers are secretly including it again.

Vaccine Ingredient: Human Viruses

The viruses against which the vaccine is supposed to protect are frequently said to be killed, inactivated, or attenuated. This is a myth. The main method used to inactivate viruses is treatment with formaldehyde, whose effectiveness is limited, and even then only temporary. Once the brew is injected into the body, the formaldehyde is broken down by the body potentially releasing the virus in its original state. This is intentional. It is documented in orthodox medical literature that these living "crippled" viruses can revert to their former virulence.

Please remember that the included viruses, and bacteria, which the vaccine is supposed to protect against are claimed to be in very small doses. These small doses are not small to the body, and these quantities are quite high enough for the diseases to occur. When they do occur, the cases are always severe, and sometimes fatal. Several deaths were reported in the British medical journal, Lancet, from vaccine-induced yellow fever. A susceptible person may succumb to infection when exposed to only a minute doses, especially when it is injected directly into the bloodstream. Likewise, there are other cases in which a healthy person will not succumb, even when exposed to large doses environmentally. It is not the pathogens, but the interaction methods between pathogens and hosts which causes diseases to appear, and the level of their severity. 

Vaccines may not manifest obvious injury, especially not immediately, but are still likely to cause long term harm to internal organs and the immune system given their ingredients, and their known effects. 

Most disease symptoms are the visible signs of a body's attempts to defend itself against the infection. With disease injections, many important defenses in the digestion path and mucous membranes are bypassed.  Vaccine Ingredient: Mycoplasma These are microscopic organisms lacking rigid cell walls and considered to be the smallest free-living organisms. Many are pathogenic, and one species is the cause of mycoplasma pneumonia which interestingly, is noted to occur only "in children and young adults", according to Mosby's Medical Dictionary. This is not simply in vaccines by accident. It is deliberately added as an adjuvant (to increase the immune system's allergic response) to the vaccine. The ingredients must be either poisonous, or slightly biologically infectious to trigger immune system responses, in other words.

Vaccine Ingredient: Mycoplasma

These are microscopic organisms lacking rigid cell walls and considered to be the smallest free-living organisms. Many are pathogenic, and one species is the cause of mycoplasma pneumonia which interestingly, is noted to occur only "in children and young adults", according to Mosby's Medical Dictionary. This is not simply in vaccines by accident. It is deliberately added as an adjuvant (to increase the immune system's allergic response) to the vaccine. The ingredients must be either poisonous, or slightly biologically infectious to trigger immune system responses, in other words.

Vaccine Ingredient: Genetically Modified Yeast

This is in the Hepatitis B Vaccine. Given the controversy over the ingestion of genetically modified foods, how much more dangerous do you think the direct injection of them is?  What are the future consequences of this genetic experimentation against our children? Normal yeast that grows throughout the tissues is already known to be the root cause of countless ailments which can last for years, and in the rare cases when it is proper diagnosed, these are called yeast infections. Yeast overgrowth directly attacks the immune system, and cripples the body's ability to remove wastes, toxins, and absorb nutrients categorically. The standard treatment for it with antibiotics often actually strengthens these infections in the long-term by killing more of the beneficial flora which normally keeps yeast overgrowth in check. 

Vaccine Ingredient: Foreign DNA

DNA is used from such organisms as animals, viruses, fungi, and bacteria. It has been documented that injecting foreign DNA can cause it, or a portion of it, to be incorporated into the recipient's DNA. The horrendous long-term multi-generational implications defy the imagination. Although, some people might actually find it beneficial to have their grandchildren born with three arms, or horns from the head.  These possibilities may seem farfetched, but with the rate at which these type of ingredients are being incorporated into vaccines, it is a matter of when they happen  not if.  Describing it as insane is being too gracious.

Prologue

The human body has never experienced such a direct invasion as this before. We hope that you consider this list, and the side effects of vaccines before giving your child vaccinations. We have strong reasons to believe that overall, and in general, that the risks of horrible and long-term side effects far outweighs the risks of the diseases which vaccines are supposed to prevent. 

Human blood is supposed to be, and traditionally was, remarkably sterile. There were virtually no bacteria or organisms present in the bloodstream. With vaccines now being so prevalent, this is no longer the case. Contrary to what we have been told, they weaken the immune system dramatically instead of strengthening it. In the United States, the Hepatitis B Vaccine is given to a child on the day of his birth, often weakening his immune system for his lifetime. His small body is just becoming accustomed to the germs around him for the first time, and it needs the strong immune system that he was given to be intact. 

Although vaccines are mandatory in the U.S., all states currently offer religious exemptions, and some states offer philosophical exemptions. You may wish to consider these as options in order to protect your children. Religious exemptions are quite appropriate for this, because you can tell them honestly, and with a straight-face, that you are doing it because it is the Christian thing to do.

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## Dr.3D

I remember seeing the propaganda way back when I was a little kid.
Disney studios were employed by the federal government to employ propaganda.
Check out this little video for the kids.  I saw it when I was in kindergarten.
http://archive.org/embed/DefenseAgainstInvasion

Edit: For those who like the YouTube format.

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## donnay



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## micahnelson

I know you posted a ton of great info donnay, and thanks for that. I would just like to know, are less people dying from diseases as a result of vaccination?

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## Nickels

> Pharmaceutical companies HATE the vaccine business. There's no money in it and it's got all the risks of exposure to lawsuits from wacko anti-vaxers (congress changed that, in part). You may remember that at one point all pharmaceutical were getting out of the business. Read the article, it explains why.


those who love the business are free to take it over, seems the anti-vaxers should love it the most.

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## Nickels

> I know you posted a ton of great info donnay, and thanks for that. I would just like to know, are less people dying from diseases as a result of vaccination?


like that EVER mattered to a conspiracy theorist, it's all about FREEDOM, CHOICE AND LESS GOVERNMENT. Don't you remember the cliche quote 'give up freedom for safety you deserve neither'?

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## Zippyjuan

Too much to take on at once but to start with, vaccines do not contain aborted fetal tissue. Now there are a couple of vaccines which come from cell cultures which were originally started with kidney tissue from two aborted fetuses- back in the early 1960's. They are not running around killing babies to make vaccines. 

http://www.drwile.com/lnkpages/render.asp?vac_abortion



> For any lie to be successful, there must be a grain of truth in it. This lie is no exception. There is a tangential connection between some vaccines and abortion. The Hepatitis A vaccine, the MMR vaccine, and the chicken pox vaccine all contain viruses (weakened or inactivated) that were grown in human cells. A virus must be given a medium in which to propagate. Many vaccines use viruses that can propagate in several kinds of mammal cells, but some viruses are so specific that they can only propagate in human cells. The viruses used in the above-listed vaccines are that specific. Thus, they must be grown in human cells. 
> 
> Where do the vaccine companies get the cells for these vaccines? They get them from companies like Coriell Cell Repositories, 403 Haddon Avenu, Camden, New Jersey 08103, 800-752-3805. This company has many cell lines, which are cultures of self-perpetuating cells. Each culture of cells is continually reproducing, making more cells. Those cells are sold to researchers, drug companies, and other medical technology firms. The specific cell lines used in vaccines are the MRC-5 and WI-38 cell lines1, and they have been supplying medical research of all types for more than 35 years. Where do these cell lines come from? That's where the grain of truth in this lie comes from. Both of these cell lines were cultured from cells taken from two abortions, one (MRC-5) that was performed in September,1966 and one (WI-38) that was performed in July, 1962.


The other compounds listed are found in some vaccines and AT HIGH LEVELS can cause some of the efffects listed.  But the levels in a vaccine are so small that they become insignificant.  You would need thousands or in some cases even millions of vaccines to get enough of them to develop the problems indicated.  The levels of formaldaheid for example are listed but the source is a trace left behind from cleaning equipment.

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## donnay

> I know you posted a ton of great info donnay, and thanks for that. I would just like to know, are less people dying from diseases as a result of vaccination?


You're welcome.  My personal opinion... vaccines are causing more diseases.  Most of the diseases were almost insignificant--then they start vaccinating (usually for public school) and we are seeing a lot more outbreaks of disease; such as whooping cough in areas where children have been vaccinated for it.

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## Eagles' Wings

> You're welcome.  My personal opinion... vaccines are causing more diseases.  Most of the diseases were almost insignificant--then they start vaccinating (usually for public school) and we are seeing a lot more outbreaks of disease; such as whooping cough in areas where children have been vaccinated for it.


I remembering hearing that vaccines also slough off vaccine matter from the host and spread illness.

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## donnay

> Too much to take on at once but to start with, vaccines do not contain aborted fetal tissue. Now there are a couple of vaccines which come from cell cultures which were originally started with kidney tissue from two aborted fetuses- back in the early 1960's. They are not running around killing babies to make vaccines. 
> 
> http://www.drwile.com/lnkpages/render.asp?vac_abortion



Fetal tissue
Vaccine ingredients
http://www.whale.to/v/fetal.html





> The other compounds listed are found in some vaccines and AT HIGH LEVELS can cause some of the efffects listed.  But the levels in a vaccine are so small that they become insignificant.  You would need thousands or in some cases even millions of vaccines to get enough of them to develop the problems indicated.  *The levels of formaldaheid for example are listed but the source is a trace left behind from cleaning equipment.*



That is sincerely disingenuous.   Formaldahyde is in many vaccines and vaccines have not been safely test in doses given to human infants either singularly or combination for toxicity.

http://www.vaccinetruth.org/new_page_3.htm

One reason Formalin is used is these substances is to initiate antibody formation.  In the body, the Formalin coating around the injected material dissolves, releasing all bacterial and viral particles from animal culture sources. Substances such as these adjuvant chemicals irritate body tissues and increase the action of accompanying bacteria and viruses, as well as the reaction of the immune system to the foreign protein antigens. However it  potentially damages neurological membranes where the myelin sheath has only partially protected the nervous system. This can result in mild to severe neurological damage, leading to learning disabilities and other nervous system disorders, or death, especially upon subsequent injections, since body has already been sensitized, promoting allergic reactions of increasingly severe nature.

Formalin is a derivative of formaldehyde. Formalin is a mixture of 37-40 percent formaldehyde, water, and usually 10 percent methanol. It is often used as a working solution for tissue fixation, or as a preservative holding solution for fixed tissues or organ specimens in pathological laboratories.   It is also used to inactivate bacterial products for toxoid vaccines. It will also kill unwanted viruses that might be found in the culture as well as serve as an embalming agent. Formaldehyde is a neurotoxin and carcinogen It effects the nervous system and known to cause cancer. It may cause insomnia, coughing, headaches, nausea, nosebleeds, and skin rashes. It is commonly known to embalm corpses. It has been said that there is no safe level of formaldehyde to be ingested into the body.

At : http://aspartamekills.com/blalockpilot.htm we read "Finally, a recent scientific study demonstrated that aspartame exposure significantly increases the level of formaldehyde in all tissue. Including brain and retina, and that this breakdown product of aspartame is very toxic to proteins and DNA, leading to permanent injury to these vital cellular components. Even more important, was the finding that this highly toxic substance accumulates in these with chronic exposure to aspartame. This could lead to significant injury to the brain, retina and other organs long after the exposure. Also, the effects appear to be dose related. That is, the more aspartame you consume, the greater the damage. It should be appreciated that formaldehyde is a powerful carcinogenic agent." Now this in today:

U.S. adds formaldehyde (a vaccine ingredient) to list of carcinogens
Posted on June 11, 2011 by The Refusers
Formaldehyde
CAS No. 50-00-0
Known to be a human carcinogen
First listed in the Second Annual Report on Carcinogens (1981)
H2C=O
Carcinogenicity
Formaldehyde is known to be a human carcinogen based on sufficient evidence of carcinogenicity from studies in humans and supporting data on mechanisms of carcinogenesis. Formaldehyde was first listed in the Second Annual Report on Carcinogens in 1981 as reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen based on sufficient evidence from studies in experimental animals. Since that time, additional cancer studies in humans have been published, and the listing status was changed to known to be a human carcinogen in the Twelfth Report on Carcinogens (2011).

http://www.vaccinetruth.org/new_page_3.htm


"Influenza virus vaccine, United States Patent 3989818"
"Fluzone®, Influenza Virus Vaccine (Zonal Purified, Subvirion) for intramuscular use, is a sterile suspension prepared from influenza viruses propagated in chicken embryos. *The virus-containing fluids are harvested and inactivated with formaldehyde*. Influenza virus is concentrated and purified in a linear sucrose density gradient solution using a continuous flow centrifuge. The virus is then chemically disrupted using Polyethylene Glycol. Influenza virus is purified, fractionated or concentrated in an aqueous medium, using a linear filamentary non-charged polymer, preferably polyethylene glycol, as an insolubilising agent "
*No Author, Free Patents Online -- 1/1/1900*

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## Nickels

> You're welcome.  My personal opinion... vaccines are causing more diseases.  Most of the diseases were almost insignificant--then they start vaccinating (usually for public school) and we are seeing a lot more outbreaks of disease; such as whooping cough in areas where children have been vaccinated for it.


That's why third world countries where vaccines are less available, people are healthier, live longer, win more Olympic medals, have more labor based jobs. Your opinion sure matches reality well.

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## donnay

> I remembering hearing that vaccines also slough off vaccine matter from the host and spread illness.



Louise, that is what I am seeing throughout my research.

______________

*Scare-Mongering! Health Officials Pushing Whooping Cough Vaccines for Epidemic in Canada*

Caroline Alphonso
The Globe and Mail
Tue, 24 Jul 2012 08:45 CDT

A highly contagious bacterial disease is spreading in four provinces, infecting as many as 2,000 people with a violent, uncontrollable cough and killing an infant in Alberta, as public-health authorities scramble to boost their vaccination programs.

British Columbia's Fraser Valley, southern Alberta, parts of Southwestern Ontario and New Brunswick are dealing with severe outbreaks of a disease that was once on the wane - pertussis, more commonly known as whooping cough, which can be especially deadly if contracted by infants. The United States, meanwhile, appears headed for its worst year for whooping cough in more than five decades, with more than 18,000 cases reported so far.

As health authorities on both sides of the border urge parents to get their children vaccinated, and start offering free vaccine clinics for adults, the outbreaks have fuelled debate about the vaccine's effectiveness over time. The latest spread of the disease can be partially explained by parents who shun vaccinating their children. But health officials say a larger issue is at play: Children under six years need five doses of the whooping cough vaccine, with a booster in their teenage years. Routine vaccination efforts, however, have stopped by the time they reach adulthood.

"We've got waned immunity," said Doug Sider, Ontario's acting associate medical officer of health. "We're great at emphasizing childhood vaccinations. We need to do a much better job at emphasizing adult vaccinations."

New Brunswick has more than 1,000 confirmed pertussis cases to date. Southern Alberta, which usually has one to three cases a year, has 42 confirmed cases, including a one-month-old who died last month from complications caused by whooping cough.

The grieving family of that child, Harper Whitehead, encouraged parents and children to get the vaccine to prevent similar tragedies. Harper started coughing 10 days after her birth in May. She was hospitalized when her coughing became more severe. She died in hospital.

"We, as a family, aren't looking for attention from this tragic event, but to make people aware this is a real disease," Harper's aunt, Dani Whitehead, said in a statement. "This and other diseases like it can be prevented by families being immunized."

Many infectious diseases are cyclical. Whooping cough peaks every two to five years. Babies are especially vulnerable because they haven't been fully immunized against the disease. It can lead to pneumonia, brain damage and death. Infants under six months of age represent nearly 90 per cent of all pertussis-related deaths.

Ian Gemmill, medical officer of health for Kingston, Frontenac and Lennox and Addington Public Health, said research is looking at how often adults need a booster. Public health officials, he said, then need to make a firm recommendation.

"You and I won't die from it. We will be exhausted. We will be unhappy. But," Dr. Gemmill said, "the infants will."

In an effort to curb the current outbreak, health authorities in various parts of the country are offering free vaccination clinics for parents and caregivers of infants under one. Studies have shown that 75 per cent of infants infected with whooping cough got it from a contact at home.

"What we're trying to do is if we can get adults at any age ... and give them one pertussis vaccine, then we correct that waning adult immunity and we bolster that collective immunity," Dr. Sider said.

Damian Langton, 14, knows first-hand the havoc the disease can cause. Despite being vaccinated when he was younger, he was coughing so badly earlier this month that it burst some of his blood vessels and he had bruising around his eye. "I didn't think it would be that bad," the Toronto resident said. "I was shocked to know it was whooping cough."

His father, Jerry Langton, recalls his son was "gasping for air" as he coughed. Damian is on antibiotics and the cough is less frequent. Mr. Langton has this simple advice for other parents who have children with symptoms: "Treat it as quickly as possible, and don't use anything over the counter." 


_______________________

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/24...emic-in-Canada

Whooping cough has made a return worldwide, but one of the leading experts on the disease has said that the bacteria has evolved and become less sensitive to the current vaccine. In fact, the new strain of pertussis is more virulent and he said that "We don't know how effective the vaccines are against the new strains." An investigation of the disease in San Diego County showed that nearly two out of three people who got whooping cough in San Diego County were immunized. 

*According to Dr Mercola*: "It's a good time to reflect back on the SCARE that was created over people not getting pertussis vaccines. Now it's been revealed that those vaccines require six follow-up booster shots just to continue to work ... if they work at all. More likely than not, the vaccine provides NO protection in any case, as the strain that is causing the damage is not actually in the vaccine." For more information read: 

*Pertussis: Investigating An Epidemic* 
*20 facts about vaccines you won't likely see on a government website*

----------


## Nickels

> . *They are not running around killing babies to make vaccines.* 
> 
> http://www.drwile.com/lnkpages/render.asp?vac_abortion
> 
> 
> The other compounds listed are found in some vaccines and AT HIGH LEVELS can cause some of the efffects listed.  But the levels in a vaccine are so small that they become insignificant.  You would need thousands or in some cases even millions of vaccines to get enough of them to develop the problems indicated.  The levels of formaldaheid for example are listed but the source is a trace left behind from cleaning equipment.


They're not?

----------


## Zippyjuan

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVac.../ucm187810.htm



> *Why is formaldehyde in some vaccines?*
> 
> Formaldehyde has a long history of safe use in the manufacture of certain viral and bacterial vaccines. It is used to inactivate viruses so that they don’t cause disease (e.g., influenza virus to make influenza vaccine) and to detoxify bacterial toxins, such as the toxin used to make diphtheria vaccine. Formaldehyde is diluted during the vaccine manufacturing process, but residual quantities of formaldehyde may be found in some current vaccines. The average amount of formaldehyde to which a young infant could be exposed to at one time through vaccines is considered to be safe.
> 
> Formaldehyde is also produced naturally in the human body as a part of normal functions of the body to produce energy and build the basic materials needed for important life processes. This includes making amino acids, which are the building blocks of proteins that the body needs.
> 
> Formaldehyde is also found in the environment and is present in different ways. It is used in building materials, as a preservative in labs and to produce many household products.
> 
> The body continuously processes formaldehyde, both from what it makes on its own and from what it has been exposed to in the environment. The amount of formaldehyde in a person’s body depends on their weight; babies have lower amounts than adults. Studies have shown that for a newborn of average weight of 6 -8 pounds, the amount of formaldehyde in their body is 50-70 times higher than the upper amount that they could receive from a single dose of a vaccine or from vaccines administered over time (1,2,3).

----------


## Zippyjuan

And an interesting link you provided on fetal tissue in vaccines- it confirms exactly what I said.
http://www.whale.to/v/fetal.html




> Human diploid cell lines:
> MRC-5 (Medical Research Council 5): MRC5 originates from the lung tissue taken from a 14 week male fetus aborted for "psychiatric reasons" from a 27 year old woman in the UK in the 1970s.
> WI-38: (Wistar Institute 38)  WI -38 originates from a female fetus aborted for "psychiatric reasons" in the 1960s. *These abortions were not done for the purpose of producing vaccines*.

----------


## donnay

> That's why third world countries where vaccines are less available, people are healthier, live longer, win more Olympic medals, have more labor based jobs. Your opinion sure matches reality well.


Our life expectancy matches third world countries, as it stands now.  We may have good sanitation, clean water (not in most cities/towns who Fluoridate), but our nutrition level is in a serious peril.

----------


## donnay

> And an interesting link you provided on fetal tissue in vaccines- it confirms exactly what I said.
> http://www.whale.to/v/fetal.html


Taking things out of context...

Vaccine Production
Vaccines for viral diseases need to be grown on living cells. Cell lines are often used. *This involves taking cells from an animal or aborted baby and growing them for many generations in a laboratory.* Viral infections for which vaccines are available include Measles, Mumps, Rubella (German measles) Rabies, Hepatitis A, Yellow fever, Japanese encephalitis and influenza. Vaccine production for bacterial infections does not involve cell lines, human or animal. Bacterial infections for which vaccines are given include Whooping Cough, Tetanus, Diphtheria,Typhoid, Tuberculosis and HIB.
The  meningitis vaccine being given to students  is against meningoccocal strain C. This is a bacterial infection and therfore is not grown on human or animal cell lines.

You forgot to add the link:  http://www.dgwsoft.co.uk/homepages/v...ternatives.htm

For instance; the mumps vaccines viral strain is 45 years old.

----------


## Nickels

> Our life expectancy matches third world countries


Source?

Which 3rd world country do you see in the first column? Mexico?
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934746.html




> , as it stands now.  We may have good sanitation, clean water (not in most cities/towns who Fluoridate), but our nutrition level is in a serious peril.


I could ask for another source, but give me the first one first.

----------


## donnay

> Source?
> 
> Which 3rd world country do you see in the first column? Mexico?
> http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934746.html
> 
> 
> 
> I could ask for another source, but give me the first one first.


It matches with regards to malnutrition.  Many Americans are vitamin and mineral deficient and the life expectancy is lowering very quickly.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/10/1...ectancy-study/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ife_expectancy
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/201...h-inequalities
http://www.nativevillage.org/Message...f%20Plenty.htm
http://www.naturalnews.com/020397_li...ancy_span.html
http://www.naturalnews.com/030687_li...y_disease.html
http://www.naturalnews.com/024103_li...xpectancy.html

----------


## green73

> No, apples and oranges.  Death rates vs infection rates, for starts.


WEAKSAUCE

----------


## green73

> It seems that every article and person you disagree with, you resort to personal attacks on the
> author: "Quack, quack quack!" -- That's your response to a well-referenced article by a neuroscientist.
> I get it. You can yell: "quack," "wacko" or "pseudoscience" or link to an article that fabricates
> information about a person and their positions. As one example of fabricated information:
> 
> " http://www.skepdic.com/blaylock.html
> 'Despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, Blaylock maintains that vaccines cause Lou Gehrig's disease (amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, or ALS, a disease of the nerve cells in the brain and spinal cord that control voluntary muscle movement), Parkinson's, and autism.'"
> 
> Of course there are no "mountains of evidence to the contrary." The author of this hit piece did not even take the time to understand what Dr. Blaylock and a number of other neuroscientists have said about giving excitotoxins (through vaccinations or other routes) to infants. Brain cells damage from excitotoxin exposure is permanent, but in cases of infant exposure, the effects do not show up for many years or decades. That is what animal research has shown. So, there are no mountains of studies looking at the long-term effects of vaccine exposure in relation to neurodegenerative diseases that have been linked by some scientists to excitotoxins.
> ...


rep. It's seems your comment was conveniently ignored. Hmm.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Taking things out of context...
> 
> Vaccine Production
> Vaccines for viral diseases need to be grown on living cells. Cell lines are often used. *This involves taking cells from an animal or aborted baby and growing them for many generations in a laboratory.* Viral infections for which vaccines are available include Measles, Mumps, Rubella (German measles) Rabies, Hepatitis A, Yellow fever, Japanese encephalitis and influenza. Vaccine production for bacterial infections does not involve cell lines, human or animal. Bacterial infections for which vaccines are given include Whooping Cough, Tetanus, Diphtheria,Typhoid, Tuberculosis and HIB.
> The  meningitis vaccine being given to students  is against meningoccocal strain C. This is a bacterial infection and therfore is not grown on human or animal cell lines.
> 
> You forgot to add the link:  http://www.dgwsoft.co.uk/homepages/v...ternatives.htm
> 
> For instance; the mumps vaccines viral strain is 45 years old.


Which once again shows that no aborted fetus has been used to make vaccines in 45 years.  They are using lines of cells developed from two babies from back then but no new ones since. And the abortions were not performed to provide cells for research- they used what would have been destroyed.

----------


## twoggle

> http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/ucm187810.htm


That FDA statement is fantastic public relations for the formaldehyde industry! Unfortunately, it is a great example of why I think people should go to independent scientists (with proven knowledge of the subject) rather than government bureaucrats or paid industry consultants.

A quick look at their three references shows that they compared the formaldehyde dose from vaccines to the very tightly-controlled levels of formaldehyde produced in the body. What they conveniently refused to do was:
1. Compare the formaldehyde dose from vaccines to research showing toxicity effects from formaldehyde;
2. Compare the synergistic effects of formaldehyde toxicity with other toxic chemicals in vaccines (aluminum, mercury, excitotoxins, etc.)
3. Look at the issues related to genetic damage from formaldehyde adduct accumulation in the brain and other areas of the body.

For example, here are a few studies showing harmful effects of formaldehyde exposure at low levels:

Irreversible genetic damage from long-term, low-level exposure (Shaham 1996)
Headaches, fatigue, chest tightness (Main 1983)
Sleeping problems, burning skin, fatigue, chest pain, dizziness (Liu 1991)
Headaches, fatigue, IgE-mediated sensitization (Wantke 1996)
Musculoskeletal, gastrointestinal, and cardiovascular symptoms (Srivastava 1992)
Headaches, tiredness (Olsen 1982)
Headaches, dizziness, nausea, lack of concentration ability (Burdach 1980)
Cytogenic effects of blood lymphocytes (Suruda 1993)
Fertility (adverse effects) (Taskinen 1999)
Cognitive adverse effects (Kilburn 2000)
Seizures and neurobehavioral impairment (Kilburn 1994)
Headaches, skin problems (Proietti 2002)
Low birth weight (Maroziene 2002)
Neurobehavioral symptoms (Kilburn 1985)
Memory problems, equilibrium and dexterity impairment.(Kilburn 1987)

One of those studies, Wantke 1996, reported adverse effects (see above) from air concentrations of 0.05 parts per million (ppm). This is equivalent to a dose of 0.75 mg/day of formaldehyde (.05 ppm formaldehyde ~= 0.075 mg/m3.;  0.075 mg/m3 * 10 m3/schoolday = 0.75 mg/day) This is the dose that caused adverse effects in ~75+ lbs children. That is equivalent to a dose of  0.02 mg/kg of body weight. 

If an infant gets 0.2 mg of formaldehyde from several vaccines, that would be approx. 0.04 mg/kg of body weight (for a 5 kg infant) or 2 times the level from the Wantke study. Now, to be fair, the research on environmental exposure to formaldehyde is usually of longer-term and the dose that is found to cause adverse effects is often higher than in the Wantke study. On the other hand, the school children in the Wantke study were exposed to formaldehyde in little doses spread out throughout the day. An infant getting shots is exposed to a sudden, higher spike of formaldehyde. If it was a one-time dose of formaldehyde without any other poisons, I think it would be dangerous, but much safer. But these injections are often repeated and contain multiple, very toxic substances.

Synergistic effects: In some animal studies, formalin (formaldehyde) is given to increase the adverse effects of excitotoxins injected into animals. An excitotoxin is one of the ingredients of vaccines. Back the the 1970s and 1980s, scientists discovered if they injected (or fed orally) relatively small amounts of excitotoxins (e.g., MSG) into animals (rodents and primates), certain areas of the brain would have irreversible damage. Some of the effects of this damage would not show up clinically until puberty. Infant animals were shown to be extremely susceptible to irreversible excitotoxic damage. 

In order to remove excess, cell-destroying excitotoxic amino acids from extracellular space, glial cells surround the neurons and supply them with energy. This takes large amounts of ATP. However, formate, a formaldehyde metabolite, is an ATP inhibitor. These two chemicals are synergistic poisons.

Mercury and aluminum can also indirectly increase excitotoxicity (not to mention that they are cumulative poisons -- accumulating in the body, and toxic at exceptionally low doses). Any claims of "safety" without detailed and long-term, *independent* human studies on the synergistic effects of these poisons is not science, but just industry public relations.

Contrary to the industry myth, not all formaldehyde is converted to formic acid and happily released from the body. Formaldehyde binds with cellular proteins and DNA as "adducts" and can accumulate in the brain and other organs and tissues. So, like mercury and aluminum, it is a cumulative poison.

A couple of important notes:
1. Formaldehyde toxicity research tends to focus on injected formaldehyde or inhaled formaldehyde since there is evidence that ingested formaldehyde is largely broken down upon digestion.
2. There is evidence that formaldehyde is less toxic on a mg/kg basis in animals and that has to be taken into consideration when looking at research that does not involve humans.

Well, that's a "non-Formaldehyde Instutite / U.S. FDA" look at formaldehyde. :-)

----------


## Nickels

> It matches with regards to malnutrition.  Many Americans are vitamin and mineral deficient and the life expectancy is lowering very quickly.
> 
> http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/10/1...ectancy-study/
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ife_expectancy
> http://articles.baltimoresun.com/201...h-inequalities


I looked at these 3 links first.

Which one of these says ANYTHING ABOUT "US life expectancy is on par with 3rd world countries"? Yes, US life expectancy changes here and there, and occasionally falls behind many other industrial countries, but which 3rd world vaccination free country do we fall behind? Which higher expectancy country is without vaccines?

----------


## Anti Federalist

*Top Ten Reasons To Avoid Your Doctor*

http://lewrockwell.com/mercola/mercola212.html

I've long said that the best strategy for achieving health is avoiding a visit to your doctor in the first place. Why? Because in many cases you will simply leave the office with a prescription or two, which will rarely solve your health problem. Most doctor visits result in "solutions" that only suppress your symptoms, often causing other side effects and problems. 


Rather than advise patients about the true underlying conditions and real solutions that lead to health, they are left putting toxic Band-Aids on gaping wounds. As shown in the slideshow above, and as I detail in depth below, there are actually many reasons why avoiding your doctor may be in the best interest of your health  

1. Annual Pap Smears
Many physicians still advise women to receive yearly pap smears, but the newest guidelines from the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force specifically recommend against this. The new recommendations call for women to undergo PAP screening only once every three years, beginning at age 21 and ending around age 65.

When testing is more frequent, or started before age 21, there's a chance of detecting human papillomavirus (HPV), and associatedlesions, more frequently. If a physician detects such lesions, they will assume they are "pre-cancerous" and treat them accordingly. However, most HPV infections and associated low grade squamous intra-epithelial lesions clear up on their own without treatment,1 while the treatment itself can lead to cervical incompetence and/or miscarriage in the future. Since most cases of HPV clear up on their own, this is a case where the treatment may do more harm than good.

That said, PAP smears (which screen for cervical cancer typically associated with HPV) are one of the best tools for preventing cervical cancer deaths  but getting one every year is likely unnecessary.  

Evidence shows that screening women for cervical cancer more frequently than every three years does not detect more cancer. Women who have not been exposed to HPV are not at risk for cervical cancer. Further, even if you are exposed and the infection does not clear up on its own (which is not common), it can take 10 years before it progresses to cancer. Cervical cancers are very slow growing, which is why less frequent PAP screens are still effective.


Despite the new PAP screen guidelines, most physicians continue to recommend annual PAP screening to their patients, mostly because they (and their patients) are in the habit of doing so. Some physicians also fear their patients will not come in for annual exams and other screening if the PAP is not required every year.

There is also a good deal of evidence that the revised PAP guidelines are part of a plan to rescue Gardasil (HPV) vaccine sales, which are embarrassingly low. The HPV vaccine is a heavily promoted and very expensive vaccine, but it has been a flop, with less than 27 percent of women opting to receive it, and reports of serious adverse effects continuing to pour in.

2. Mammograms
Only about 1 in 8 women whose breast cancer was identified during a routine mammogram actually had their lives "saved" by the screening, a recent analysis estimated2  and this does not accurately account for how many women will fall victim to mammogram-induced breast cancer.

Using breast cancer data from The National Cancer Institute and The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, researchers calculated a 50-year-old woman's likelihood of developing breast cancer in the next 10 years, the odds the cancer would be detected by mammography, and her risk of dying from the cancer over 20 years.

They found that a mammogram has, at best, only a 13 percent probability of saving her life, and that the probability may actually be as low as 3 percent. No matter what analyses they used, including considering women of different ages, the probability of a mammogram saving a life remained below 25 percent. Researchers concluded:

"Most women with screen-detected breast cancer have not had their life saved by screening. They are instead either diagnosed early (with no effect on their mortality) or overdiagnosed."

This bears repeating:

Mammograms often diagnose lesions or tumors that may never threaten a woman's life. They also often result in false positives that lead to over-treatment, i.e. misdiagnosed women often undergo unnecessary mastectomies, lumpectomies, radiation treatments and chemotherapy, which can have a devastating effect on both the quality and length of their lives. Plus, a mammogram uses ionizing radiation, which in and of itself can either induce or contribute to the development of breast cancer.


3. Cold and Flu  
Think it's wise to go to a conventional physician for these?  Think again.  Thanks to routine over-prescription of antibiotics, and the prescription of inappropriate antibiotics, you're likely to walk away after being told to take a drug you don't actually need.

Antibiotics do NOT work against viruses, hence they are useless against colds and flu's. Unfortunately antibiotics are vastly over-prescribed for this purpose. If you have a cold or flu, remember that unless you have a serious secondary bacterial pneumonia, an antibiotic will likely do far more harm than good, because whenever you use an antibiotic, you're increasing your susceptibility to developing infections with resistance to that antibiotic  and you can become the carrier of this resistant bug, and can spread it to others.

The first thing you want to do when you feel yourself coming down with a cold or flu is to avoid ALL sugars, artificial sweeteners, and processed foods. Sugar is particularly damaging to your immune system  which needs to be ramped up, not suppressed, in order to combat an emerging infection. This includes fructose from fruit juice, and all types of grains (as they break down into sugar (glucose) in your body).

Ideally, you must address nutrition, sleep, exercise and stress issues the moment you first feel yourself getting a bug. Getting plenty of high quality sleep will be crucial to your recovery. This is when immune-enhancing strategies will be most effective. In addition, the research is quite clear that the higher your vitamin D level, the lower your risk of contracting colds, flu, and other respiratory tract infections. I strongly believe you could avoid colds and influenza entirely by maintaining your vitamin D level in the optimal range.

4. Cholesterol
Many doctors are unaware that a high-fat diet is NOT the cause of heart disease. They are fooled into believing that total cholesterol is an accurate predictor of heart disease. If you visit your physician and you have high cholesterol, you're likely to be told two things: 

Take a statin cholesterol-lowering drug and 
Don't eat saturated fat. 
While statin drugs do lower cholesterol very effectively, cholesterol is not the culprit in heart disease. Plus a report by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology claims that no study has ever proven that statins improve all-cause mortality3  in other words, they don't prolong your life any longer than if you'd not taken them at all. And rather than improving your life, they actually contribute to a deterioration in the quality of your life, destroying muscles and endangering liver, kidney and even heart function. The best ways to optimize your cholesterol levels and your heart health have to do with lifestyle measures, including eating healthy minimally processed fats and avoid highly processed vegetable fats and oils that are loaded with toxic omega-6 fats.


5. Depression
Once again, you're more likely to leave the doctor's office with a prescription for a drug that could be more dangerous than the problem itself. Every year, 230 million prescriptions for antidepressants are filled, making them one of the most prescribed drugs in the United States. The psychiatric industry itself is a $330 billion industry  not bad for an enterprise that offers little in the way of cures.

Despite all of these prescriptions, more than one in 20 Americans are depressed.4 Of those depressed Americans, 80 percent say they have some level of functional impairment, and 27 percent say their condition makes it extremely difficult to do everyday tasks like work, activities of daily living, and getting along with others.

The use of antidepressant drugs  medicine's answer for depression  doubled in just one decade, from 13.3 million in 1996 to 27 million in 2005.

If these drugs are so extensively prescribed, then why are so many people feeling so low?

Because they don't work at addressing the cause.

Research has confirmed that antidepressant drugs are no more effective than sugar pills. Some studies have even found that sugar pills may produce BETTER results than antidepressants! Personally, I believe the reason for this astounding finding is that both pills work via the placebo effect, but the sugar pills produce far fewer adverse effects.

Many people forget that antidepressants come with a slew of side effects, some of which are deadly. Approximately 750,000 people attempt suicide each year in the US, and about 30,000 of those succeed. Taking a drug that is unlikely to relieve your symptoms and may actually increase your risk of killing yourself certainly does not seem like a good choice. In addition, since most of the treatment focus is on drugs, many safe and natural treatment options that DO work  like exercise, the Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT), vitamin D, and proper nutrition  are completely ignored.

6. High Blood Pressure
The definition of what constitutes high blood pressure expanded greatly in 2003, so that drug companies could sell drugs loaded with side effects to 45 million extra people. Because the Joint National Committee on Prevention, Detection, Evaluation and Treatment of High Blood Pressure (rife with drug industry conflicts of interest) decided that what were in actuality relatively low blood pressure readings were a risk for heart disease, millions more over the years, were suddenly labeled abnormal, and in need of "treatment" for a condition that didn't exist in medical literature until that panel met.

Uncontrolled high blood pressure is a very serious health concern that can lead to heart disease and increase your risk of having a stroke. The good news though is that following a healthy nutrition plan, along with exercising and implementing effective stress reduction techniques will normalize blood pressure in most people.


7. PSA Tests for Prostate Cancer
These tests actually reveal very little, and an irrelevant positive result will likely lead to a biopsy that comes with infection risk. The prostate-specific antigen test (PSA test), analyzes your blood for prostate-specific antigen (PSA), a substance produced by your prostate gland. When higher-than-normal levels of PSA are detected, it is believed that cancer is present. However, PSA screening barely has any impact on mortality rates from prostate cancer. As a result, the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force will soon recommend that men not get screened for prostate cancer.

Today, many experts agree that PSA testing is unreliable at best and useless at worst for accurately diagnosing prostate cancer. Many also agree that routine PSA blood tests often lead to over-diagnosis of prostate cancer, resulting in unnecessary treatments. Similar to mammograms, the PSA screen has become little more than an up-sell technique. The false positive rate is high, and the bulk of the harm is a result of subsequent unnecessary treatments.

Diet is actually a factor that can greatly impact your prostate health and help prevent enlarged prostate and prostate cancer, but many physicians fail to address this.

You'll want to eat as much organic (preferably raw) food as possible, and liberally include fresh herbs and spices, such as ginger. Make sure to limit carbohydrates like sugar/fructose and grains as much as possible to maintain optimal insulin levels, which will help reduce your cancer risk in general. Highly processed or charcoaled meats, pasteurized dairy products, and synthetic trans fats correlate with an increased risk for prostate cancer and should also be avoided.

8. Inappropriate and Unwise Dietary Advice 
Most doctors are clueless about what constitutes a healthy diet. As such, they will recommend health catastrophes like artificial sweeteners, vegetable oils in lieu of butter, and fat-free pasteurized dairy products. Most will also neglect to tell you about the foods you could be eating more of to optimize your health, like fermented vegetables, raw dairy products, healthy fats (like saturated and animal-based omega-3s), grass-fed beef and more.

In addition, most are ignorant about the importance of how to cook your food  most foods are best consumed when raw or only lightly cooked, and this includes animal proteins like eggs and meat. A discussion about food quality is essential to health (i.e. getting your meat from a small local farmer instead of a confined animal feeding operation (CAFO)) but you will almost never hear this from your family physician. Wondering how to truly eat healthy? See my nutrition plan for a comprehensive (and free) guide.

9. Prescription Drugs Might Kill You and They Don't Address the Cause of the Problem 
A drug prescription is usually a Band-Aid that gets nowhere near the root cause of illness.  And many drugs are dangerous.   Last year an analysis of data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control CDC) revealed that deaths from properly prescribed drugs now outnumber traffic fatalities in the United States! And when you add in deaths attributable to other medical care modalities, like hospital admissions and surgery, the modern medical system becomes the leading cause of death and injury in the United States.


Authored in two parts by Gary Null, PhD, Carolyn Dean, MD ND, Martin Feldman, MD, Debora Rasio, MD, and Dorothy Smith, PhD, the comprehensive Death by Medicine article described in excruciating detail how everything from medical errors to adverse drug reactions to unnecessary procedures caused more harm than good. That was in 2003. In 2010, an analysis in the New England Journal of Medicine found that, despite efforts to improve patient safety in the past few years, the health care system hasn't changed much at all.5 

For one of many examples, the birth control pills Yaz and Yasmin, which have been endorsed by a U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) advisory committee, contain a drug called drospirenone that makes women who take it nearly seven times more likely to develop thromboembolism. This is an obstruction of a blood vessel that can lead to deep vein thrombosis, pulmonary embolism, stroke, heart attack and death.

Why did the FDA approve this dangerous drug? It turns out that at least four members of the advisory committee have either done work for the drugs' manufacturers or licensees, or received research funding from them. According to the Alliance for Natural Health:

"Each of those four panelists who received money from the pill's manufacturer voted in favor of the pill. Interestingly, the committee's ruling that the drug's benefit outweighs the risks was decided by a four-vote margin. Ironically, while the FDA allowed voting by advisors with business connections to drospirenone, the agency barred ... Sidney M. Wolfe, on the grounds that he ... had advised his readers not to take Yaz based on several years of data."

10. Your Doctor Might Not Even Tell You the Truth
A U.S. telephone survey found that 79 percent of Americans trust their doctor.6 But a recent survey of 1,900 physicians revealed that some are not always open or honest with their patients The results were less than impressive, to put it mildly:

One-third of physicians did not completely agree with disclosing serious medical errors to patients 
One-fifth did not completely agree that physicians should never tell a patient something untrue 
Amazingly 40% believed that they should hide their financial relationships with drug and device companies to patients 
Ten percent said they had told patients something untrue in the previous year 
When making health care decisions, you should certainly get your physicians' advice  that's what you're paying them for, after all. Hopefully you have chosen a health care provider who has similar philosophies about health as you do, and whose expertise you can trust. But remember that when making health care decisions, you must be your own advocate; it's important to ask questions before opting for tests, procedures or treatments, and it's your decision if you'd rather opt for less medical intervention while choosing a more natural way of healing your body.

Ultimately, the more you take responsibility for your own health  in the form of nurturing your body to prevent disease  the less you need to rely on the "disease care" that passes for health care in the United States. If you carefully follow some basic health principles  simple things like exercising, eating whole foods, sleeping enough, getting sun exposure, reducing stress in your life, and nurturing personal relationships  you will drastically reduce your need for conventional medical care, which in and of itself will reduce your chances of suffering ill side effects.

But in the event you do need medical care, seek a health care practitioner who will help you move toward complete wellness by helping you discover and understand the hidden causes of your health challenges ... and create a customized and comprehensive  i.e. holistic  treatment plan for you.

References: 

See All References 

Sources and References
CNN March 15, 2012 
Alliance for Natural Health March 13, 2012 
July 26, 2012


Copyright © 2012 Dr. Joseph Mercola

----------


## Nickels

> Which once again shows that no aborted fetus has been used to make vaccines in 45 years.  They are using lines of cells developed from two babies from back then but no new ones since. And the abortions were not performed to provide cells for research- they used what would have been destroyed.


You're not seriously suggesting a anti-vaxer doesn't know how to read his own source, are you?

----------


## green73

> and where is Stossel employed now?


Same place Judge Nap is.

----------


## musicmax

> My brother has a pool and doesn't use chlorine.
> 
> There are alternatives.


RonRules is going over to his house to inject chlorine into his pool.

----------


## green73

> *Hey, it's past 5:00 PM EST!!*
> 
> Did I win?


If it's a contest for the most fallacies you sure do.

----------


## UWDude

Ill take vaccines, and get my kids vaccinated for serious diseases.  But chicken pox?  The flu?  Bitch, please, you don't scare me.

----------


## emazur

> It says it is a homeopathic.  Click on the link I gave you.


I don't know whether that stuff is really homeopathic or not, but I've heard that it is extremely common to mislabel legitimate medicine as homeopathic as a marketing gimmick or as an alternative way of saying the medicine uses "natural ingredients".  I'm a contact lens wearer and occasionally get pink eye and this is the stuff that cures it within minutes: http://www.similasanusa.com/irritated-eye-relief

It's labeled homeopathic, whether it really is or not I don't know. The company does tout homeopathy on its website:
http://www.similasanusa.com/about-homeopathy

I didn't care when I bought it and didn't even think to look for the word "homeopathic" - I was just at the store looking for OTC medicine for pink eye and found it. All I know is that it 100% works.

Also, major respect to RonRules for throwing yourself into the lion's den.  I wish there were a lot more skeptics around in the liberty movement to counter the Natural News mentality but unfortunately it has made it's way onto even lewrockwell.com (I consider Rockwell himself to be an intellectual, not a conspiracy theorist)

----------


## RonRules

> I don't know whether that stuff is really homeopathic or not, but I've heard that it is extremely common to mislabel legitimate medicine as homeopathic as a marketing gimmick


Man, now I'm worried about the Belgian skeptics!  If a bunch of Belgians die as a result, the lawsuit will be interesting to read!

Your Honor, we're suing because they gave us stuff when they said they didn't.

http://skepchick.org/2010/01/homeopathic-suicide/

*Homeopathy and the FDA*



I've known her for about 6-7 years, seeing her at the skeptic conferences and listening to the Skeptics Guide to the Universe. Even though, what she says is correct, I just thought her liberal annoying voice would annoy the heck of the Anti-Vaxers here.

SCIENCE, it works bitches!

----------


## RonRules

> Also, major respect to RonRules for throwing yourself into the lion's den.


I deserve no respect for this. It's not difficult; anybody with a 8 year old level of common sense can do this.

It's just that someone has to do it.

Same for the Creation/Evolution debate.

----------


## RonRules



----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Man, now I'm worried about the Belgian skeptics!  If a bunch of Belgians die as a result, the lawsuit will be interesting to read!
> 
> Your Honor, we're suing because they gave us stuff when they said they didn't.
> 
> http://skepchick.org/2010/01/homeopathic-suicide/
> 
> *Homeopathy and the FDA*
> 
> 
> ...


It's unfortunate that she moves from problem-> statist solution

----------


## James Madison

> It's unfortunate that she moves from problem-> statist solution


I believe we call them statheists. 

Off-topic: Though I don't care for Jenny McCarthy's views on vaccination, she's damn fine.

----------


## UWDude

THE FLUES WILL KILLZ US ALL IF WE DONT VACCINATE EVERYONE!  PIGGY FLU!  PIGGY FLU!  
OH NOES!  ONLY 66% OF THE PEOPLE NEEDED TO TAKE THE PIGGY FLU SHOT DID.

Yes, in 2009, only 66% of the numbers required for herd immunity to the swine flu were taken.  (only 20% of Americans got vaccinated)
And sadly, as our great "skeptics" had warned, hundreds of millions of people died from it.  
Oh, if only we had listened to them.

The forecasts were right, hundreds of billions of dollars were lost in productivity.  The world entered a great collapse as professionals from all walks of life fell ill and died to the great swine flu.

If only we had taken our vaccines as we were warned!  The funeral pyres in the major cities burned day and night.  If only we had listened to our great "skeptic" intellectual superiors!

Oh, Ron Rules, I so want to go to Disneyland.  Please, inject me with a vaccine or two every year, maybe even three when they come out with newer ones!  I will listen to you from now on!  You guys were spot on with your doom and gloom about the piggy flu.  We should have never distrusted your stupid BIG STEAMING PILE OF OVER-HYPED BULL$#@!.


P.S.  Are any of you flu-doomers ever going to admit how $#@!ING OVER THE TOP WRONG AND HYSTERICALLY, COMICALLY STUPID YOU LOOKED after it all blew over?  

LoL

----------


## donnay

> Which once again shows that no aborted fetus has been used to make vaccines in 45 years.  They are using lines of cells developed from two babies from back then but no new ones since. And the abortions were not performed to provide cells for research- they used what would have been destroyed.


Merck was just caught using the Mumps strain that dated back 45 years--which basically pointed out that the virus strain was ineffective.  Which is going to cost them $3 Billion

According to Sound Choice Pharmaceutical Institute, these vaccines contain aborted human fetus cells:

    Polio Vaccines, Pentacel, DT Polio Absorbed, Quadracelâ€”all by Sanofi
    Measles, Mumps, Rubella Vaccines

MMR II, Meruvax II, MRVax, Biovax, ProQuad, MMR-V all
Merck vaccines
Priorix and Erolalix by GlaxoSmithKline

    Varicella Vaccines for Chickenpox or Shingles

Verivax, ProQuad, MMR-V, and Zostavax all by Merck
Varilix by GSK

    Hepatitis Vaccines

Vaqta by Merck
Havrix and Twinrix by GSK
Avaxim and Vivaxim by Sanofi
Epaxal by Crucell/Berna

    Rabies Vaccine

Imovax by Sanofi

They are listed online at http://www.soundchoice.org/certification.html http://www.soundchoice.org/vaccines.html

----------


## RonRules



----------


## libertyjam

> 



How IRONIC

----------


## Dr.3D

> Merck was just caught using the Mumps strain that dated back 45 years--which basically pointed out that the virus strain was ineffective.  Which is going to cost them $3 Billion
> 
> According to Sound Choice Pharmaceutical Institute, these vaccines contain aborted human fetus cells:
> 
> *  Polio Vaccines*, Pentacel, DT Polio Absorbed, Quadracelâ€”all by Sanofi
>     Measles, Mumps, Rubella Vaccines
> 
> MMR II, Meruvax II, MRVax, Biovax, ProQuad, MMR-V all
> Merck vaccines
> ...


The Polio Vaccine caught my eye as I could remember it being originally made with the kidney tissue of a monkey.



> In the 1960s it was discovered that polio vaccines manufactured in monkey kidney tissue between 1955 and 1963 were contaminated with a monkey virus (Simian Virus, number 40). Although this virus causes cancer in experimental animals, health authorities insist it does not cause problems in humans. But evidence of SV40 genetic material has been popping up in human cancers and normal tissue. Researchers are now connecting SV40-contaminated polio vaccines to an increasing number of rare cancers of the lung (mesothelioma) and bone marrow (multiple myeloma). In a 1999 report, SV40 DNA was detected in tissue samples from four children born after 1982. Three were kidney transplant patients, and a fourth had a kidney tumour. Could SV40 be passed on from parents to their children? No one knows for sure.
> http://curezone.com/art/read.asp?ID=12&db=12&C0=735

----------


## RonRules

*Whooping cough makes deadly return across Canada*
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle4436946/

A highly contagious bacterial disease is spreading in four provinces, *infecting as many as 2,000 people with a violent, uncontrollable cough and killing an infant in Alberta*, as public-health authorities scramble to boost their vaccination programs.

British Columbia’s Fraser Valley, southern Alberta, parts of Southwestern Ontario and New Brunswick are dealing with severe outbreaks of a disease that was once on the wane – pertussis, more commonly known as whooping cough, which can be especially deadly if contracted by infants. The United States, meanwhile, appears headed for its worst year for whooping cough in more than five decades, with more than *18,000 cases reported so far*.

As health authorities on both sides of the border urge parents to get their children vaccinated, and start offering free vaccine clinics for adults, the outbreaks have fuelled debate about the vaccine’s effectiveness over time. The latest spread of the disease can be partially explained by parents who shun vaccinating their children. But health officials say a larger issue is at play: *Children under six years need five doses of the whooping cough vaccine, with a booster in their teenage years.* Routine vaccination efforts, however, have stopped by the time they reach adulthood.



“We’ve got waned immunity,” said Doug Sider, Ontario’s acting associate medical officer of health. “We’re great at emphasizing childhood vaccinations. *We need to do a much better job at emphasizing adult vaccinations.*”

[Where's that Anti-Federalist's ass so I can administer it!]

New Brunswick has more than 1,000 confirmed pertussis cases to date. Southern Alberta, which usually has one to three cases a year, has 42 confirmed cases, including a *one-month-old who died last month* from complications caused by whooping cough.

The grieving family of that child, Harper Whitehead, encouraged parents and children to get the vaccine to prevent similar tragedies. Harper started coughing 10 days after her birth in May. She was hospitalized when her coughing became more severe. She died in hospital.

“We, as a family, aren’t looking for attention from this tragic event, but to make people aware this is a real disease,” Harper’s aunt, Dani Whitehead, said in a statement. “This and other diseases like it can be prevented by families being immunized.”

Many infectious diseases are cyclical. Whooping cough peaks every two to five years. Babies are especially vulnerable because they haven’t been fully immunized against the disease. It can lead to pneumonia, brain damage and death. *Infants under six months of age represent nearly 90 per cent of all pertussis-related deaths.*

Ian Gemmill, medical officer of health for Kingston, Frontenac and Lennox and Addington Public Health, said research is looking at how often adults need a booster. Public health officials, he said, then need to make a firm recommendation.

“You and I won’t die from it. We will be exhausted. We will be unhappy. But,” Dr. Gemmill said, “the infants will.”

In an effort to curb the current outbreak, health authorities in various parts of the country are offering free vaccination clinics for parents and caregivers of infants under one. Studies have shown that 75 per cent of infants infected with whooping cough got it from a contact at home.

“What we’re trying to do is if we can get adults at any age … and give them one pertussis vaccine, then we correct that waning adult immunity and we bolster that collective immunity,” Dr. Sider said.

Damian Langton, 14, knows first-hand the havoc the disease can cause. Despite being vaccinated when he was younger, he was coughing so badly earlier this month that it burst some of his blood vessels and he had bruising around his eye. “I didn’t think it would be that bad,” the Toronto resident said. “I was shocked to know it was whooping cough.”

His father, Jerry Langton, recalls his son was “gasping for air” as he coughed. Damian is on antibiotics and the cough is less frequent. Mr. Langton has this simple advice for other parents who have children with symptoms: “Treat it as quickly as possible, and don’t use anything over the counter.”

----------


## donnay

> The Polio Vaccine caught my eye as I could remember it being originally made with the kidney tissue of a monkey.


Yes you are right.  I already posted this video in an earlier post, but it still applies:

----------


## donnay

http://www.whale.to/vaccines.html

----------


## libertyjam

*DTap-IPV-Hib vaccine loaded with bacterial components, antibiotics, and toxic chemicals and additives*

According to the Vaccine Awareness Network, the DTap-IPV-Hib vaccine contains diphtheria and tetanus toxoids, five components of the bordetella pertussis bacteria, filamentous haemagglutinin (the component of the bacteria which causes infection), pertactin (a highly immunogenic virulence factor), three types of inactivated polio virus, types 1, 2 and 3, a component of Haemophilus influenzae type B that has been attached to tetanus toxoid to make babies produce more antibodies, and three different types of antibiotics -- neomycin, streptomycin, and polymyxin B.

Besides this barrage of pathogens and pathogenic components, the vaccine also contains deadly preservatives and additives like formaldehyde (rat poison), 2-phenoxyethanol (a detergent that is the main ingredient in anti-freeze), aluminum, and polysorbate 80 (an emulsifier implicated in causing male infertility).

There are also more than 3,500 reports in the Department of Health and Human Services' (HHS) Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) about serious adverse events associated with the DTap-IPV-Hib vaccine. These include, but are not limited to, Moraxella catarrhalis, streptococcus pneumonia, asthma, anaphylactic reactions, pancreatitis, gastrointestinal dysfunction, peripheral neuropathy, Guillain-Barre syndrome, and meningitis."
http://birthofanewearth.blogspot.co....d-tetanus.html




> Polysorbates and other emulgents make the underdeveloped blood-brain barrier of little children even more permeable. Passage of neurotoxic ingredients such as aluminium etc is facilitated through the barrier into the brain tissue where they accumulate. This increases the risk of brain damage. (sl)


Tween 80 Immunosuppression

Food and Chemical Toxicology, Vol 20. No. 6 pp. 983.

Tween 80 (polyoxyethylene sorbitan monooleate), an emulsifier, is yet another example or a commonly used chemical being implicated in the suppression of the immunological response.
Barnett reports that recent work in his laboratory has suggested that
the primary IgE and IgG, MS suppressed in mice pretreated with Tween 80
followed by an immunizing dose of ovalbumin adsorbed to aluminium hydroxide (an
antigenadjuvant combination known to produce high levels of IgE and
IgG,) The authors conclude from these findings that the
immunosuppression caused by Tween 80 is restricted to the primary
humoral response.

Delayed effects of neonatal exposure to Tween 80 on female reproductive organs in rats

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8473002

Treatment of Cells with Detergent Activates Caspases and Induces Apoptotic Cell Death

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10833528

Effects of repeated subcutaneous injection of Tween-80 in rats 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/5914564

In
the rats injected with Tween-80, 1 subcutaneous sarcoma was found at
the site of injection, and 2 similar sarcomas were also found in the
rats injected with Tween-80 and small amounts of 3′-me-DAB. In mice 2
subcutaneous sarcomas were induced by injections of Tween-80 alone. These results raise the possibility that Tween-80 may be directly involved in carcinogenesis.Evaluation of mucosal damage of surfactants in rat jejunum and colon

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7766919

In
particular, surfactants, which are commonly used adjuvants in oral
pharmaceutical preparations to improve wetting and solubilization for
insoluble drugs, have come under investigation as absorption enhancers.
The goal of an enhancer is to improve membrane permeability without
unwanted side effects. However, this is a formidable task because
absorption is often increased due to intestinal damage.



Tween
80 is an orally approved surfactant routinely used in drug formulations
and food products (FDA Inactive Ingredient Guide, 1991). In contrast,
Triton X-100 is not approved for oral use and is regarded as toxic.

Nonoxynol-9 Induces Apoptosis of Endometrial Explants by Both Caspase-Dependent and -Independent Apoptotic Pathways

http://www.biolreprod.org/content/73/2/382.full.pdf

Solubilization of membranes by detergents

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1091302

----------


## donnay

Here are some parents stories:

http://www.thinktwice.com/multiple.htm

----------


## libertyjam

Polysorbate 80 and Histidine, a marriage of disaster
By Cynthia A. Janak
http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/janak/080830

1 in 100 Students Felled by Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: More Vaccine Victims?
December 14, 2011 
http://gaia-health.com/gaia-blog/201...ccine-victims/

Vaccines and the Peanut Allergy Epidemic
http://www.thedoctorwithin.com/aller...ergy-epidemic/

The Peanut Allergy Epidemic is a MAN-MADE EPIDEMIC caused by vaccinations!
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/the-p...y-vaccinations

----------


## Nickels

> 


that says it all. "Will anything change your mind?" If not, what's the point of discussing? So you can push your side? Nice diagram!

----------


## Zippyjuan

It is like the old 9/11 "discussions".  You refute one point and the responce is a mile long post about other "what about" to drown out the answers. And nobody on either side will change their mind (which is why they are so passionate about supporting their view- understandable).  If all the scary facts about vaccines were true, we should have thousands if not millions dying. It is a miracle so many actually reached adulthood. We should all be sick or dying or have cancer.

----------


## Nickels

> It is like the old 9/11 "discussions".  You refute one point and the responce is a mile long post about other "what about" to drown out the answers. And nobody on either side will change their mind (which is why they are so passionate about supporting their view- understandable).  If all the scary facts about vaccines were true, we should have thousands if not millions dying. It is a miracle so many actually reached adulthood. We should all be sick or dying or have cancer.


oh but thats where you wrong. havent you bin paying attenchun? the idea that there are diseases to prevent that will kill you was a lie to begin with. let me summerize the story for you again. Ready?

NWO invents a fake disease
They infect certain people, usually poor populations or 3rd world countries
They tell Americans we need an antidote even though they can control the disease by killing the source
They let big pharma sell useless drugs to make money, and in some cases, cause more problems so they can sell more drugs
They pay off every scientific research organization to make sure the above stays a lie, that's why you never hear any reputable scientist expose their evil agenda. 
I can't show you any evidence for this, because that's how bad the collusion is, if I can find any evidence, that's proof they messed up somewhere and it would actually prove me wrong. 

It's not a miracle these kids grow up adults, they would have anyway, and without the autism and whatever side effects they got.

----------


## donnay

> It is like the old 9/11 "discussions".  You refute one point and the responce is a mile long post about other "what about" to drown out the answers. And nobody on either side will change their mind (which is why they are so passionate about supporting their view- understandable).  If all the scary facts about vaccines were true, we should have thousands if not millions dying. It is a miracle so many actually reached adulthood. We should all be sick or dying or have cancer.


I am not sure as to whom your post was directed to, but children, at an alarming rate, are getting Autism--which should give you pause.  The SIDS rate is more than it was 30 years ago--which some studies/theories were saying lead paint was the culprit, no more lead paint, and the death rate still climbs.  And, cancer is up at alarming rates.  If you look at the information with regards to the known information (exposed) from Dr. Hilleman, alone, you will notice that people would not get cancers immediately after taking the tainted polio shot--it would be within the span of 20 plus years.

Most of our liberties taken away were not taken over night but incremental--just sayin'

----------


## Nickels

> I am not sure as to whom your post was directed to, but children, at an alarming rate, are getting Autism--which should give you pause.


No, they are not. They are just being diagnosed for it more. 





> The SIDS rate is more than it was 30 years ago


So is birth rate. 




> --which some studies/theories were saying lead paint was the culprit, no more lead paint, and the death rate still climbs.  And, cancer is up at alarming rates.


Cancer is a really broad umbrella term. Some have very specific (and known) causes.

Sometimes cancer conspiracies confuse me. is cancer a real disease and real problem caused by big pharma and monsanto? Or is it a fake disease by big pharma to sell drugs? 





> If you look at the information with regards to the known information (exposed) from Dr. Hilleman, alone, you will notice that people would not get cancers immediately after taking the tainted polio shot--it would be within the span of 20 plus years.


Cancers never develop immediately.




> Most of our liberties taken away were not taken over night but incremental--just sayin'


we agree there.

----------


## Zippyjuan

And no more thimerisol in kids vaccines (an alleged culprit) and still autism rates continued to climb. The definition of autism has been expanded (it is autism SPECTRUM disorder  which covers many different symptoms- not a single condition) and doctors are looking for it more so naturally they are finding more cases- how much of this is real increases in frequency and how much is simply more diagnosis- calling things autism today which were once called something else?  

Cancer rates soaring? 
http://www.care2.com/greenliving/can...declining.html



> According to an American Cancer Society report cancer rates for men declined 1.8 percent and for women by 1.6 percent between 2004 and 2008. Also cancer screening and treatment improvements have prevented one million cancer deaths since the early 1990s, says the document.
> 
> Read more: http://www.care2.com/greenliving/can...#ixzz21rHK5AIo


Or from the polio vaccine in the 1950's and early 1960's (we are well after the "20 years" you suggest so that should be popping up all over):
http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/12/2/177.full



> Here, we test the hypothesis that polio vaccination during the early years of its use increased the risk of brain tumors, particularly glioma, using data from a large case-control study of adult brain tumors conducted in the United States between 1994 and 1998, more than 30 years after the period in which contaminated vaccine may have been given.





> In conclusion, *our results are consistent with the majority of previous epidemiological studies*, mainly of large cohorts, that *did not show convincing evidence of increased risk* of brain tumors after vaccination for polio, the only major known source of human exposure to SV40 (4, 5) .


SIDS soaring?

http://www.sidscenter.org/Statistics.html

(waiting for the next barage of horror stories of vaccines to drown out this post)

----------


## Nickels

> And no more thimerisol in kids vaccines (an alleged culprit) and still autism rates continued to climb. The definition of autism has been expanded (it is autism SPECTRUM disorder  which covers many different symptoms- not a single condition) and doctors are looking for it more so naturally they are finding more cases- how much of this is real increases in frequency and how much is simply more diagnosis- calling things autism today which were once called something else?  
> 
> Cancer rates soaring? 
> http://www.care2.com/greenliving/can...declining.html
> 
> 
> Or from the polio vaccine in the 1950's and early 1960's (we are well after the "20 years" you suggest so that should be popping up all over):
> http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/12/2/177.full
> 
> ...


why do you manage to find facts that the other guys do not? do you have some virus on your computer that prevents you from seeing the truth (or what you call conspiracy theories)?

----------


## Zippyjuan

I am paid by the government and Big Pharma to create and provide the info.

----------


## Nickels

> I am paid by the government and Big Pharma to create and provide the info.


lol

----------


## donnay

> And no more thimerisol in kids vaccines (an alleged culprit) and still autism rates continued to climb. The definition of autism has been expanded (it is autism SPECTRUM disorder  which covers many different symptoms- not a single condition) and doctors are looking for it more so naturally they are finding more cases- how much of this is real increases in frequency and how much is simply more diagnosis- calling things autism today which were once called something else?


Go back through the thread--thimerisol is still in many of the vaccines.  However, the substitute is no better, which is aluminum.  Mercury not only affects the brain but it affects the intestines lining (where the immune system is).  Twenty years ago children were not expected to get the number of shots they receive today--consequently the Autism epidemic is here.  Here is some *parent's testimony* explain how their children were full of life and happy until they got the MMR shot.





> Cancer rates soaring?
> http://www.care2.com/greenliving/can...declining.html
> 
> Or from the polio vaccine in the 1950's and early 1960's (we are well after the "20 years" you suggest so that should be popping up all over):
> http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/12/2/177.full




SV40 Contamination of Polio Vaccine

In the late 1940's and early 1950's the polio virus was taking a savage toll on the American public. Thousands of children and adults were crippled or killed. In 1955, Jonas Salk discovered how to mass produce polio vaccine by growing it on the kidneys of rhesus monkeys. By 1960 a problem had surfaced, a problem which would come back to haunt the nation forty years later.

The complication researchers had isolated in 1960 was a viral contaminate. It seems that when the live polio virus grown on monkey tissues was extracted for vaccine production another virus was extracted as well, SV-40. When this monkey virus was injected into research animals it produced brain cancer. It appears our government didn't wish to create a public panic or discredit the public health service, because instead of recalling the tainted vaccines, it quietly ordered the manufacturers to find a monkey free of SV-40 and continue production. As of 1963, the rhesus monkey had been replaced with the African green monkey for production of a safer polio vaccine, but between the years of 1955 and 1963 as many as 98 million Americans had received doses of live polio virus vaccines tainted with SV-40..

Jumping to the early 1990's, Michele Carbone, Assistant Professor of Pathology at Loyola University in Chicago, isolated fragments of the SV-40 virus in human bone cancers and in a particularly nasty form of lung cancer called mesotheliomas. The viral contaminate from the 50s was back to haunt us, and appeared in 33% of the osteosarcoma bone cancers studied, in 40% of other bone cancers, and in 60% of the mesotheliomas lung cancers. Dr. Carbone believed this study could explain why 50% of the current mesotheliomas being treated were no longer occurring in association with their traditional cause of asbestos exposure..

Already sounding like a bad science fiction story, the worse news was yet to follow. An Italian team of researchers from the Institute of Histology and General Embryology of the University of Ferrara lead by Dr. Fernanda Martini discovered SV-40's presence in various other tumors. To be specific they found the monkey virus in 83% of choriod plexus papillomas, in 73% of ependymomas, in 47% of astrocytomas, in 50% of glioblastomas, and in 14% of meningiomas. While the virus's appearance in all of these types of brain tumors is mortifying, even more so is the fact that it materialized in 23% of blood samples and 45% of sperm fluids taken from normal individuals -- normal meaning free of disease at the time of testing. The researchers determined the virus could be transmitted sexually and through blood transfusions. As if to drive this point home, SV-40 has appeared in 61% of all new cancer patients -- patients too young to have received the contaminated vaccine being administered forty years ago who are now believed to have been infected by human to human transmission. Being a blood born organism, it is also suspected that SV-40 is transmissible from mother to child during pregnancy..

The more this matter is researched the more startling the evidence. Senior epidemiologist at the National Institutes of Health, Dr. Howard Strickler, has plotted a geographic pattern to the cancers associated with SV-40 helping to confirm its link to the tainted vaccine. People who lived in Massachusetts and Illinois who received identified lot numbers of the contaminated vaccine administered in the 1950s are now demonstrating ten times the rate of the osteosarcoma bone tumors as those who received vaccine free of the SV-40 contaminate in other parts of the country..

The FDA mandates that every American infant and child receive polio vaccinations. While public health officials continue to emphasize how current supplies of the vaccine are safe, Peter Reeve, FDA Virologist, has acknowledged that the administration abandoned independent testing of vaccine purity some fifteen years ago. The job of ensuring safety and purity rests squarely on the shoulders of those manufacturing the vaccines with no federal oversight. Wyeth-Lederle controls the supply of all the oral polio vaccine in this country, and last year's sales totaled some $230 million dollars. Surely there would be no conflict of interest in allowing this corporation to be the sole agent of quality oversight of their own pocketbook?.

The government may not have paid attention to the quality of these vaccines, but they had formulated a plan for their distribution. Federal vaccination policy advocated the use of live-virus oral polio vaccine (OPV) based on the belief the live virus shed in the body fluids of infants immunized with OPV could immunize others through contact exposure. The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) insisted this was a safe practice, and emphasized that no one previously vaccinated could contract the disease in this manner. The public was never informed of this strategy, however, and no consent was ever obtained from the unknowing participants in this vaccination scheme. One hundred and twenty people, many previously vaccinated, contracted polio as a result of this practice. To add insult to injury in 1994 the World Health Organization proclaimed polio was eliminated from the Western Hemisphere. Insult because for the past seventeen years the only cases of polio occurring in the US have been caused by the vaccine itself, and injury because this victory will be paid for in blood from the cancers produced by the monkey virus spread with the vaccine..

One might ask just how such a thing could happen considering the injectable form of the vaccine (IPV) does not use a live virus and doesn't transmit the disease it is designed to shield us from? Well, Wyeth-Lederle's leading competitor Connaught produces IVP which could explain why Wyeth lobbied so hard against the CDC recommending increased use of IVP. In 1996 the CDC revised its recommendation from four doses of OPV to two doses of IVP followed by two doses of OPV, however, physicians have been instructed to give all four doses as OPV if they desire. The cost of IVP vaccine is $5.40 per dose, whereas OPV costs $2.32 per dose. With the difference in cost favoring the use of OPV, and the current climate of regulating health care costs, clearer guidelines must come from the government if they truly expect to increase the use of the safer IVP vaccine..

Well the story of contaminated polio vaccine is not over yet. Microbiologist Howard Urnovitz, Ph.D. provided significant evidence at the Eighth Annual Houston Conference on AIDS that human immunodeficiency virus type 1 (HIV-1) is a monkey hybrid virus which was produced when 320,000 Africans were injected with polio virus contaminated with live simian immunodeficiency virus (SIV) in the late 1950's. Apparently, viral fragments combine easily with other viruses to produce these hybrids called "chimeras." This theory was confirmed by another research team headed by Dr. B. F. Elswood at the University of California in San Francisco. Interestingly enough, when researchers Cecil H. Fox and John Martin applied to the National Institutes of Health for grants to confirm the presence of SIV and simian cyto-megalovirus (SCMV) contaminates in polio vaccines their requests were denied. Dr. Urnovitz may have an explanation as he stated in the Boston Globe, "that almost 100 million.

Americans were exposed (to SV-40) through a government sponsored program, but for over 30 years, there has been virtually no government effort to see if anyone's been harmed by the exposure." He added, "The government will not fund science that makes it look culpable." Could it be our government, once again, is attempting to avoid a public panic while ignoring the great potential for harm these viruses could inflict. Time will tell. Harvard Medical School professor, Dr. Ronald Desroier points out that taking all known scientific evidence into account that the medical experts' knowledge is limited to "perhaps 2% of existing monkey viruses." Who knows what lethal virus may be discovered in our blood streams forty years from now as a result of good intentions.....

References
Berleur, M. P., & Cordier, S. (1995). The Role of Chemical, Physical, or Viral Exposures and Health Factors in Neurocarcinogenesis: Implications for Epidemiologic Studies of Brain Tumors. Cancer Causes and Control, 6(3), 240-256..

Bookchin, D., & Schumaker, J. (1997). Tainted Polio Vaccine Still Carries Its Threat 40 Years Later. The Boston Globe, January 26..

Carbone, M., et al. (1996). SV-40 Like Sequences in Human Bone Tumors. Oncogene, 13(3), 527-535..

Elswood, B. F., & Stricker, R. B. (1995). Polio Vaccines and the Origin of AIDS. Medical Hypotheses, 42(6), 347-354..

Fisher, B. L. (1997). Workshop on Simian Virus 40: A Possible Human Polyomavirus. National Vaccine Information Center, January 27, On-line at http://www.909shot.com/polio197.htm>http://www.909shot.com/polio197.htm..

Krieg, P., Amtmann E, Jonas, D., Fischer, H., Zang, K., & Sauer G. (1981). Episomal Simian Virus 40 Genomes in Human Brain Tumors. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 78(10), 6446-6450..

Lednicky, J. A., Garcea, R. L., Bergsagel, D. J., & Butel, J. S. (1995). Natural Simian Virus 40 Strains are Present in Human choroid Plexus and Ependymoma tumors. Virology, 212(2), 710-717..

Martini, F., et al. (1995). Human Brain Tumors and Simian Virus 40. Journal of the National Cancer Institute, 87(17), 1331..

Martini, F., et al. (1996). SV-40 Early Region and Large T Antigen in Human Brain Tumors, Peripheral Blood Cells, and Sperm Fluids From Healthy Individuals. Cancer Research, 56(20), 4820-4825..

Pass, H. I., Kennedy, R. C., & Carbone, M. (1996). Evidence for and Implications of SV-40 Like Sequences in Human Mesotheliomas. Important Advances in Oncology, 89-108..

Rock, A. (1996). The Lethal Dangers of the Billion Dollar Vaccine Business. Money, December, pages 148-163..

Tognon, M., et al. (1996). Large T Antigen Coding Sequences of Two DNA Tumor Viruses, BK and SV-40, and Nonrandom Chromosome Changes in Two Glioblastoma Cell Lines. Cancer Genetics and Cytogenics, 90(1), 17-23.







> SIDS soaring?




Vaccines are known to cause fevers in babies (CDC 2001). These fevers can increase generation of the gases, exposing babies to higher concentrations. In addition, vaccines can lead to the depletion of vitamin C in a baby’s body (Hattersley 1993 and Pauling 1981), and damage the developing nervous and immune systems. Vaccines have also been shown to cause stressed breathing (Scheibner 1993), weakened immunity, and neurological damage (Neustaedter 1996), which can lower the baby’s ability to tolerate a given concentration of toxic gases.
http://www.healthychild.com/sids-crib-death-factors


http://www.whale.to/vaccines/sids.html

Other sources:
http://www.whale.to/vaccine/sids1.html
http://www.whale.to/vaccines/sbs.html
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...2/533.abstract
http://www.cjsids.org/resource-cente...-research.html
http://www.cjsids.org/resource-cente...tatistics.html
http://www.cdc.gov/SIDS/SUIDAbout.htm
http://www.suid-im-projectimpact.org...d=11&Itemid=16
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db09.htm
http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20001105.htm
http://www.thenhf.com/article.php?id=1848
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/136/2/121.short
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16231176

----------


## RonRules

Put babies to sleep on their back rather than their bellies and most SIDS goes away.

You can thank science for that. The problem was studied and the solution turned out to be very simple.

Doctors, scientists and Big Pharma are not all greedy bastards.

----------


## Anti Federalist

*Another Good Reason To Avoid Hospitals*

by Jack D. Douglas

http://lewrockwell.com/douglas/douglas57.1.html

This is a good study of the soaring rate of dangerous MRSA infection from hospital stays by academic hospital insiders who used their inside knowledge of the U. of Chicago hospital and three others to correct for the massive 30% to 50% official underreporting and found that one out of twenty plus patients now gets serious MRSA hospital infection in the U.S., more than all the influenza and AIDS hospitalizations combined. That was a 100% increase in five years and the study ended in '08, so there has probably been another near doubling, or less if the growing infection control efforts coming out of Hopkins, etc., are beginning to pay off. 

I would say from my experience and from many studies that far and away the number one danger of medical care in and out of hospitals is misdiagnosis and mistreatment – misprescription, etc. 

Doctors don't know their patients, don't know them as whole people in whole life situations, don't know much up-to-date out of their specialties, don't see anything but their narrow specialty as their concern, don't really even know the records of patients they have worked with for many years in most instances. Ignorance is soaring for many reasons. The fifteen minute run-by med. appointment is absurd for dealing seriously with basic causes and preventives, so they rarely try to get to the obvious basics. 

Dr. Laura Nathanson, a doctor here in San Diego, did an excellent book in 2007 based on the terrible, mortal experience of her husband and herself with a misdiagnosis of her husband's illness – What You Don't Know Can Kill You. 

Misdiagnosis killed her husband. I've had many misdiagnoses, some that were very dangerous. I have also been permanently maimed by surgical mistake for a hernia that destroyed my left testicle and has left me with knotted veins in the groin and intermittent pains. I have dealt with a dozens of medical people who are inherently dangerous to me because about 40 years ago an internist put me on hypertension drugs because of a blood pressure spike in his office which I learned [in part by working with John Ross, a great cardiologist] was due to 'White Coat Syndrome" – anxiety about doctors because of such ghastly mistakes. They routinely insist adamantly on putting me on powerful drugs for life, refuse treatment, etc. 

I normally pretend not to know as much about my problems as I know when dealing with doctors. They deeply resent anyone who knows something they do not, anyone who does things to correct their mistakes [even when you cannot get them on the phone to check with them], and "troublemakers" and "amateur doctors." They can become dangerous if they put you in any such category because they have sky-high Hubris from their God Complex in the Medical Realm. 

Doctors are like the police: they can be very helpful in some situations, but are inherently dangerous and should be avoided as much as possible. You do not argue with doctors or police and you must be submissive in demeanor at all times. They insist on being called Doctor, even when you have a doctorate and full professorship and are three times their age and they call you "Jack." That name puts you down at the bottom of the totem pole on purpose. You must bow and scrape and say "Yassah, Maasah!" like the slaves did. But be aware they are very often very wrong and dangerous, like slave drivers. Slaves had a secret, underground of knowledge and wisdom and support against the Masters. You must do the same.

----------


## donnay

> Put babies to sleep on their back rather than their bellies and most SIDS goes away.
> 
> You can thank science for that. The problem was studied and the solution turned out to be very simple.
> 
> Doctors, scientists and Big Pharma are not all greedy bastards.




I never put my children on their backs to sleep--but then again they never had vaccines.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> It is like the old 9/11 "discussions".  You refute one point and the responce is a mile long post about other "what about" to drown out the answers. And nobody on either side will change their mind (which is why they are so passionate about supporting their view- understandable).  If all the scary facts about vaccines were true, we should have thousands if not millions dying. It is a miracle so many actually reached adulthood. We should all be sick or dying or have cancer.


Umm, actually, leaving aside the questions over vaccines specifically, using US "health care" is a pretty $#@!ing dangerous undertaking.

The numbers range from 40,000 to *over 100,000 people every year that die due* to "medical misadventure", a euphemistic term that encompasses the whole range of medical errors, drug reactions, mistakes and misdiagnoses.

Just last month, a friend of mine had to bury his 46 year old wife, who went in for a "routine" surgical procedure and was killed deader than hammer by being given a double dose of some sort of pre op anesthetic drug by mistake.


*We thought those figures sounded awfully low for deaths as a result of medical errors. A 1999 study by the Institute of Medicine, "To Err is Human: Building a Safer Health System," concluded that medical error deaths range from about 44,000 to 98,000 a year.*

http://www.iom.edu/Reports/1999/To-E...th-System.aspx

http://www.politifact.com/florida/st...misadventures/



Scientific American quotes a study that claims *200,000 a year die*.

*Deaths from avoidable medical error more than double in past decade, investigation shows*

http://www.scientificamerican.com/bl...ror-2009-08-10

Preventable medical mistakes and infections are responsible for about 200,000 deaths in the U.S. each year, according to an investigation by the Hearst media corporation. The report comes 10 years after the Institute of Medicine's "To Err Is Human" analysis, which found that 44,000 to 98,000 people were dying annually due to these errors and called for the medical community and government to cut that number in half by 2004.



Another study showing 195,000 deaths per year.

*In Hospital Deaths from Medical Errors at 195,000 per Year USA*

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/11856.php

An average of 195,000 people in the USA died due to potentially preventable, in-hospital medical errors in each of the years 2000, 2001 and 2002, according to a new study of 37 million patient records that was released today by HealthGrades, the healthcare quality company.

----------


## donnay

*"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Anti Federalist again."*


Guns don't kill people medical errors do.

----------


## pcgame

...

----------


## RonRules

> I knew Steve Novella's name sounded familiar.  Hes a neurologist from Yale.  He puts out propaganda to maintain the status quo.


I think you're a shill for Big Placebo and get paid for making posts like this.  

They seem to pay you well because it costs around $500. to just download these two courses! In other words, I don't believe you have studied these courses one bit.

Also, most people other loved these courses:

*Medical Myths, Lies, and Half-Truths: What We Think We Know May Be Hurting Us*
4.1 out of 5 31 of 39(79%) customers would recommend the course to a friend.

*Your Deceptive Mind: A Scientific Guide to Critical Thinking Skills*
4.3 out of 5, 21 of 23(91%) customers would recommend the course to a friend.


The more likely cause, just like members of a cult who refuse to hear anything, you could not accept the cognitive dissonance.

As one commenter states:
*Be prepared to have some of your own beliefs shaken.* 
Examples of things you'll learn:
*"Alternative medicine" just doesn't work. (Chiropractic, acupuncture, homeopathy, reflexology, etc).
*Vitamins & supplements are not necessary or useful.
*Linus Pauling was wrong about the Vitamin C thing.
*The antioxidant craze is based on outdated research from the 1990s - it was helpful in animals but not people!
*words like "organic" and "natural" are not necessarily good things.
In this course, you will likely need to UN-learn a lot of things you "learned" in the past 20 years...."

----------


## RonRules

Novella's podcast comes out every Saturday morning. I've listened to pretty much all of them.

But this one is a treat! *He will discuss the Anti-Vaxer debate!*

*The Skeptics' Guide to the Universe Podcast #366 - Jul 21 2012*
http://theskepticsguide.org
http://ec.libsyn.com/p/e/d/a/eda622f...8&c_id=4726351

Here are today's topics:

Fake Bomb Detector Maker Charged    	http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18795651
*Debating an Antivaccinationist    	http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...t-freedomfest/*
Feathered Dinosaurs    	http://www.amnh.org/science/papers/feathers.php
New Moon for Pluto    	http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18803212
Higgs Discovery Announced    	http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gene...FcoQNAodLnEA-Q
Sex Myths    	 7 common myths about sex
Sapphire Hard Drive    	http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...ple-sclerosis/

Edit: Relevant part of the Podcast starts at 09:30. Also note that this was last week's podcast. Look for podcast number: #366

----------


## LibertyEagle

> As one commenter states:
> *Be prepared to have some of your own beliefs shaken.* 
> Examples of things you'll learn:
> *"Alternative medicine" just doesn't work. (Chiropractic, acupuncture, homeopathy, reflexology, etc).
> *Vitamins & supplements are not necessary or useful.
> *Linus Pauling was wrong about the Vitamin C thing.
> *The antioxidant craze is based on outdated research from the 1990s - it was helpful in animals but not people!
> *words like "organic" and "natural" are not necessarily good things.
> In this course, you will likely need to UN-learn a lot of things you "learned" in the past 20 years...."


Even the AMA has admitted that vitamins are beneficial.  

The thing is, RonRules, your arguments go to the opposite extreme of those who argue against vaccinations of any kind whatsoever.  When you list the things above, it clearly points out to me that the guy you are sourcing doesn't have a brain cell in his body.  Because I have first-hand experience of some of those things and know that some of them work.  Maybe not to the extent some claim, but they still are good at some things.

You are trying way too hard.

----------


## trey4sports

i don't think the OP is trying to force anyone to make their kids get vaccinated, he is merely shaming and belittling them for not doing so. Honestly, i agree with the OP in the sense that there is a lot of nonsense regarding vaccines out there.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> i don't think the OP is trying to force anyone to make their kids get vaccinated, he is merely shaming and belittling them for not doing so. Honestly, i agree with the OP in the sense that there is a lot of nonsense regarding vaccines out there.


Very possibly.  But, then again, I think the plethora of vaccinations they attempt to force on kids these days is rather alarming.  

But, he doesn't stop there.  He goes off into whack land denouncing all forms of alternative medicine.  Yes, I know our Western brand of cut if off or medicate the symptoms, must be so far superior than the medicine that Asians and others have used for centuries.  Come on, man.  There is something to be gained from all.

----------


## RonRules

> The thing is, RonRules, your arguments go to the opposite extreme


I just want claims to be evaluated with proper scientific studies. What's extreme about that?  

What IS extreme is to ignore science and go back to the dark ages, given all the evidence we have that science works. 




> you are sourcing doesn't have a brain cell in his body.


Steven Novella is probably the smartest guy I know. However the above quote is from someone who did his course and liked it.





> Because I have first-hand experience of some of those things and know that some of them work.


First hand experience is a horrible way to choose medical treatments. Humans are pattern seeking and often seek to just reaffirm their wrong beliefs. Medical science's greatest discovery is the double-blinded (patient and doctor are blinded) placebo-controlled study technique. It takes you and the doctor out of the equation and ensures that there is no self-emphasized bias.




> You are trying way too hard.


Somebody has to work hard around here. I'm in this thread for entertainment. I work hard in the vote flipping theads.

One more thing, I've come up with a quote years ago that you will hate:

"*YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO YOUR OWN OPINIONS*" The reason is because humans ability to think is flawed. It's a tough pill to swallow but study the topic and maybe you'll eventually agree with me. The scientific process corrects our reasoning shortcomings and that's why it is so successful.

I was pleasantly surprised when Michael Specter in the previously posted video "The danger of science denial" said:
"*YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO YOUR OWN FACTS*"

Again, with a lot of thought and self-introspection, you will eventually come up to the same conclusion.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Go back through the thread--thimerisol is still in many of the vaccines.  However, the substitute is no better, which is aluminum.


Oh crap!!  Now they're putting aluminum in them??  Damn.

----------


## pcgame

......

----------


## LibertyEagle

> I just want claims to be evaluated with proper scientific studies. What's extreme about that?  
> 
> What IS extreme is to ignore science and go back to the dark ages, given all the evidence we have that science works. 
> 
> Steven Novella is probably the smartest guy I know. However the above quote is from someone who did his course and liked it.
> 
> First hand experience is a horrible way to choose medical treatments. Humans are pattern seeking and often seek to just reaffirm their wrong beliefs. Medical science's greatest discovery is the double-blinded (patient and doctor are blinded) placebo-controlled study technique. It takes you and the doctor out of the equation and ensures that there is no self-emphasized bias.
> 
> Somebody has to work hard around here. I'm in this thread for entertainment. I work hard in the vote flipping theads.
> ...


I assure you that I absolutely do have a right to my own opinion.

I am all for double-blind studies, but when traditional medicine has failed you, you look elsewhere for a solution.  That seems logical to me.  Doesn't it to you?  And what I have found with alternative medicine is about the same as traditional medicine, in that there are some kooks in both.  But, if you are very lucky, you can find people who actually know what they are doing and help you.    

For you to write off all of alternative medicine is ignorant to the extreme.  And since medical credentials mean so very much to you, my doctor has a foot in both worlds and if you compare credentials, he makes your guy look like a piker.  

Sell your swampwater somewhere else.  I had an ear open to what you were saying, but you have crossed the rubicon.

----------


## trey4sports

> Very possibly.  But, then again, I think the plethora of vaccinations they attempt to force on kids these days is rather alarming.  
> 
> But, he doesn't stop there.  *He goes off into whack land denouncing all forms of alternative medicine*.  Yes, I know our Western brand of cut if off or medicate the symptoms, must be so far superior than the medicine that Asians and others have used for centuries.  Come on, man.  There is something to be gained from all.


yeah as well as vitamins and organic produce. I mean, there are a ton of studies out there that show the nutrient profile of grass-fed beef vs. grain-fed is incredibly different. That is not conjecture, but rather fact.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I think you're a shill for Big Placebo and get paid for making posts like this.


What is someone takes a "placebo", whatever it may be, and it, through positive reenforcement or mental stimulation, alleviates the symptoms that somebody is showing.

Why is that non effective?

----------


## Dr.3D

> What is someone takes a "placebo", whatever it may be, and it, through positive reenforcement or mental stimulation, alleviates the symptoms that somebody is showing.
> 
> 
> Why is that non effective?


It's quite effective.  I tell my physician to prescribe sugar pills whenever he feels it's appropriate.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> It's quite effective.  I tell my physician to prescribe sugar pills whenever he feels it's appropriate.


LOL

----------


## RonRules

> It's quite effective.  I tell my physician to prescribe sugar pills whenever he feels it's appropriate.


He probably does, seeing your arguments, he's probably having quite a chuckle every time he sees you.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Another article from that kooky, kwazy, Scientific American.

*Placebo Effect: A Cure in the Mind*

*Belief is powerful medicine, even if the treatment itself is a sham. New research shows placebos can also benefit patients who do not have faith in them*

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...re-in-the-mind

In Brief

In recent decades reports have confirmed the efficacy of various sham treatments in nearly all areas of medicine. Placebos have helped alleviate pain, depression, anxiety, Parkinson’s disease, inflammatory disorders and even cancer.

Placebo effects can arise not only from a conscious belief in a drug but also from subconscious associations between recovery and the experience of being treated—from the pinch of a shot to a doctor’s white coat. Such subliminal conditioning can control bodily processes of which we are unaware, such as immune responses and the release of hormones.

Researchers have decoded some of the biology of placebo responses, demonstrating that they stem from active processes in the brain.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Sell your swampwater somewhere else.  I had an ear open to what you were saying, but you have crossed the rubicon.


This.

On this subject, I become instantly skeptical of anybody that claims they "have every answer out there", and anybody who says otherwise is "a stone age cave dweller" or a "big pharma shill".

Each person is different, each ailment unique in certain ways, and one size certainly does not fit all.

I'm convinced this forced, "cookie cutter" approach to medicine that contributes to the *hundreds of thousands of deaths* every year at the hands of the medical establishment that I documented in my previous post.

----------


## Dr.3D

> He probably does, seeing your arguments, he's probably having quite a chuckle every time he sees you.


Hey, I'm for whatever works.

----------


## donnay

*Officials: Ebola breaks out in Uganda*

KAMPALA, Uganda (AP)  The deadly Ebola virus has killed 14 people in western Uganda this month, Ugandan health officials said on Saturday, ending weeks of speculation about the cause of a strange disease that had many people fleeing their homes.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/s...eak/56553600/1

____________________________

*Makerere University Walter Reed Project*

The Makerere University Walter Reed Project (MUWRP) is a non-profit partnership between Makerere University and MHRP. MHRP has been conducting HIV research in Uganda since 1998 and expanded its portfolio to include prevention, care and treatment activities in 2005 under the Presidents Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief (PEPFAR). More recently, MUWRP expanded its portfolio to research into other communicable diseases of public health importance in Uganda.

By building infrastructure and increasing the capacity of local public and private partners, MUWRP ensures quality services for communities participating in vaccine research and HIV cohort studies.

(...)

*Ebola/Marburg Vaccine Study
*
This site was recently selected by the Vaccine Research Center at NIH to conduct a clinical trial on candidate vaccines for Ebola/Marburg. This study, called RV247, is a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study to evaluate the safety, tolerability, and immunogenicity of two recombinant DNA vaccines: one against Ebola virus and one against Marburg virus infections. A second part of the study will evaluate simultaneous administration of the Ebola and Marburg vaccines, which are evaluated independently in part one.

http://www.hivresearch.org/network.php?OfficeID=5

____________________________

*Uganda to conduct Marburg and Ebola vaccine trials*

Published 15 October 2009

Ebola and Marburg are viral infections that have a high mortality, killing 90 percent of victims; no effective treatment exists for these highly infectious diseases, which cause extensive internal bleeding and rapid death

Uganda could hold the key to the Ebola and Marburg vaccines as the country has been selected for a high profile second stage safety trial in humans. Dr. Hannah Kibuuka, the director clinical programs at the Makerere University Walter Reed project, who is conducting the experiments, said the trial comes after a smaller one in the United States.

Irene Nabusoba writes that in an interview with the New Vision on Tuesday, Kibuuka said they hope to administer the vaccine next week.  The exercise will kick off a research process that is expected to last two years. They are artificially made DNA vaccines. They do not contain any Ebola or Marburg virus particles, Kibuuka explained. The DNA instructs the body to make one type of protein that is similar to the surface protein of the virus, triggering an immune response when the virus attacks because the body recognizes it as foreign.

Ebola and Marburg are viral infections that have a high mortality, killing 90 percent of victims. No effective treatment exists for these highly infectious diseases, which cause extensive internal bleeding and rapid death.

Experts say vaccination is the best strategy for preventing the deadly infections classified by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) as category A of bioterrorism agents. The viruses are associated with bio-terrorism because they are highly infectious, easily transmissible, cause public panic and social distress. It is important that we develop a vaccine, Kibuuka noted.

She said *Uganda is the only country participating in the second trial* (phase1B). Phase 1A trial by the US vaccine research center involved 20 people.

http://www.homelandsecuritynewswire....vaccine-trials

__________________________________

_A top scientist gave a speech to the Texas Academy of Science last month in which he advocated the need to exterminate 90% of the population through the airborne ebola virus. Dr. Eric R. Pianka's chilling comments, and their enthusiastic reception again underscore the elite's agenda to enact horrifying measures of population control.

Pianka's speech was ordered to be kept off the record before it began as cameras were turned away and hundreds of students, scientists and professors sat in attendance.

Saying the public was not ready to hear the information presented, Pianka began by exclaiming, We're no better than bacteria!, as he jumped into a doomsday malthusian rant about overpopulation destroying the earth.

Standing in front of a slide of human skulls, Pianka gleefully advocated airborne ebola as his preferred method of exterminating the necessary 90% of humans, choosing it over AIDS because of its faster kill period. Ebola victims suffer the most tortuous deaths imaginable as the virus kills by liquefying the internal organs. The body literally dissolves as the victim writhes in pain bleeding from every orifice._
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles...assculling.htm



____________________________________

*Genocide & Vaccinations in Uganda*
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/vacci...a22dec03.shtml

*Polio vaccine genocide in Uganda*
http://www.whale.to/a/nkuba.htm
*
Genocide & vaccination quotes*
http://www.whale.to/b/genocide_vax_q.html
*
CIA oversees "war" on AIDS by Dr. Len Horowitz*
http://www.whale.to/a/horo.html

*"Hepatitis B Vaccine and the Origin of HIV/AIDS: Perspectives on a Possible Vaccine Induced Pandemic"*
http://www.whale.to/m/horo.html

*AIDS, MURDER OR MYSTERY?*
http://www.umoja-research.com/aids_murder_docs.htm

----------


## Nickels

> Even the AMA has admitted that vitamins are beneficial.


Who here denies that?

----------


## Nickels

> He probably does, seeing your arguments, he's probably having quite a chuckle every time he sees you.


this is why I wear these, and give them to friends who bought those stupid Power Balance bracelets.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> Who here denies that?


Ask RonRules.  The protector of all things establishment (medical).

----------


## RonRules

> Ask RonRules.  The protector of all things establishment (medical).


BTW, I'm not in the medical business AT ALL. I just like science and the mental discipline that critical thinking provides.

Vitamins are mostly produced and pushed by the alt-med people. Some large med companies are selling them too.

Doctors, for the most part will say that vitamins are unnecessary, UNLESS you have a bad diet or a definite deficiency.

I haven't taken ONE in 45 years. I'm a resplendissant image of health and fitness! 

The latest research indicates that they are harmful, particularly in high doses.

*Will Supplements Kill You?*
http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-to-study.html

*But here's what ironic:* The alt-med loons will deluge you with copies of articles as soon as a scheduled drug has the slightest mark against it, even if it is a mild side-effect that is trivial compared to the benefit.

BUT NOOOOO! They won't snitch and bitch about vitamins possibly causing harm, because vitamins are a major source of income for their gaudy lime green websites.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> BTW, I'm not in the medical business AT ALL.


Oh, that was quite apparent from the outset.




> Doctors, for the most part will say that vitamins are unnecessary, UNLESS you have a bad diet or a definite deficiency.


Have you been to a doctor lately?   Because I haven't heard this for years.

----------


## RonRules

"According to the Council for Responsible Nutrition, *150 million Americans currently take dietary supplements*. In a gift to the industry, *Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah* pushed through legislation 17 years ago that allows supplement manufacturers to make health claims for their products, with no need for federal regulators to OK them. That’s why manufacturers typically say things like “These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration,” as Nature Made’s website puts it. In other words, don’t go looking for warning labels on bottles of vitamins any time soon."

There's lots of vitamin producers in Utah. Cults are notorious for pushing various scams that have no effectiveness, are sometimes dangerous, are hyped to the extreme, cost very little to make and consequently highly profitable. 

For the most part (except for people with identified deficiencies), vitamins are a scam.

----------


## RonRules

> Oh, that was quite apparent from the outset.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you been to a doctor lately?


No, I don't get sick. I get vaccinated.

----------


## RickyJ

> No, I don't get sick. I get vaccinated.


Oh, so that is your problem. At least you practice what you preach. But not getting sick has little to nothing to do with getting vaccinated. You have been lucky so far, unfortunately luck does not last forever.

----------


## RonRules

“Vitamin D is not really a vitamin,” wrote scientists for the New England Journal of Medicine. For something to be a vitamin, it should provide the body with an essential nutrient that it cannot make on its own, but requires for survival.

Since synthetic vitamin D is a drug, foreign to the body, and not required for survival, *it’s technically a fraud* – an impostor posing as a vitamin. It has “vitamin like” activity, which initially tricks the body into thinking the host of associated co-hormones is present. But this biological ruse proves to be devastating to the body over time.

----------


## twoggle

> Oh crap!!  Now they're putting aluminum in them??  Damn.


Yep, another injected poison! 

I showed that the formaldehyde dose from vaccines is not insignificant
as compared to formaldehyde toxicity research. See post at:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post4554230

Here is a quote from research demonstrating adverse neurological 
effects and potential neurotoxicity in preterm infants at doses 
(56 micrograms/day) of aluminum, *lower* than found in some vaccines:

"...the effect of aluminum exposure was dose-related. Aluminum exposure
from the standard intravenous solutions was calculated to be associated
with a mean loss of one point on the Bayley Mental Development Index 
per day of full intravenous feeding, after adjustment for potentially
confounding factors. In infants fed intravenously for 10 or more days, 
those receiving the standard solutions had a major (10 point) deficit 
in their Mental Development Index and were twice as likely to have a
Mental Development Index below 85. These results provide support for 
our hypothesis that intravenous aluminum may have neurotoxic effects, 
with longer-term consequences for neurologic development."
[From "Aluminum Neurotoxicity in Preterm Infants Receiving Intravenous
Feeding Solutions," Bishop et al., NEJM, 336:1557-1561, 1997.]

Dose of aluminum for the infants discussed above was 45 micrograms (ug) 
per kg of body weight per day for 10 days or more. 45 ug/kg/day ~= 56 ug/day 
for these infants.

A 15 year followup to the above-quoted study looked at the effects of infant
exposure to aluminum on bone development:

"Our study produced 2 principle findings suggesting that exposure to 
aluminum from standard PN [intravenous] solutions that are used in neonatal
period may impair long-term bone mineralization."
[From "Aluminum Exposure From Parenteral Nutrition in Preterm Infants: Bone 
Health at 15-Year Follow-up," Fewtrell, et al., Pediatrics: 124:1372-1379, 2009]

Another relevent quote from these authors:

"Aluminium is the most common metallic element, but has no known biological role. 
It accumulates in the body when protective gastrointestinal mechanisms are bypassed, 
renal function is impaired, or exposure is high...." 
[From "Aluminum Exposure From Parenteral Nutrition in Preterm Infants and Later
Heath Outcomes During Childhood and Adolescence," Proceedings of the Nutrition Society, 
70(3):299-304, 2011]

The quote is particularly important because some people still think that you can 
compare doses of injected aluminum with that of orally injested aluminum. Most of 
the research shows that less than 1% of orally injested aluminum is absorbed (usually
around 0.1-0.3%).

The infants in the research described above showed signs of neurotoxicity when 
receiving ~56 microgrames of aluminum per day for 10 days or more. How much 
aluminum is in vaccines? Here is one list I found:

•Hib (PedVaxHib brand only) - 225 micrograms per shot.
•Hepatitis B - 250 micrograms.
•DTaP - depending on the manufacturer, ranges from 170 to 625 micrograms.
•Pneumococcus - 125 micrograms. 
•Hepatitis A - 250 micrograms. 
•HPV - 225 micrograms. 
•Pentacel (DTaP, HIB and Polio combo vaccine) - 330 micrograms. 
•Pediarix (DTaP, Hep B and Polio combo vaccine) - 850 micrograms. 

Now some may claim that the infants in the above-mentioned studies are more
susceptible than a healthy infants to aluminum toxicity and that is certainly 
true. However, the doses in vaccines contain 2 to 15 times more aluminum
than the daily dose received by the susceptible infants. In addition, vaccines
contain other toxic substances such as mercury (in some cases), formaldehyde and 
excitotoxins which may have synergistic toxic effects.

I think that next time some government official wants to force injections into
children, I would ask him/her to show independent published controlled research
on the injections of these multiple poisons into the bloodstream of infants -- 
looking at the short-term, medium-term and long-term effects. These government
officials claim to have science on their side, but really they have little safety
research and mostly just industry propoganda.

BTW, here's a list of book titles that I've found. I've read some, but not all
of these books:

http://vactruth.com/vaccine-books/

Also, the bottom of the following page has a more concise list "in
order of importantce":

http://www.adjustbacktohealth.com/abth_hi_vaccines.html

----------


## donnay

> “Vitamin D is not really a vitamin,” wrote scientists for the New England Journal of Medicine. For something to be a vitamin, it should provide the body with an essential nutrient that it cannot make on its own, but requires for survival.
> 
> Since synthetic vitamin D is a drug, foreign to the body, and not required for survival, *it’s technically a fraud* – an impostor posing as a vitamin. It has “vitamin like” activity, which initially tricks the body into thinking the host of associated co-hormones is present. But this biological ruse proves to be devastating to the body over time.



I had already explained this a couple of posts back.  Vitamin D is actually a hormone.  Our bodies produce Vitamin D from UVB from the sun. Have enough Vitamin D in the system is better than any vaccine out there!

Here learn something why don't you...

*
Vitamin D in a New Light*

by *Donald W. Miller, Jr., MD*  


There are thirteen vitamins humans need for growth and development and to maintain good health. The human body cannot make these essential bio-molecules. They must be supplied in the diet or by bacteria in the intestine, except for vitamin D. Skin makes vitamin D when exposed to ultraviolet B (UVB) radiation from the sun. A light-skinned person will synthesize 20,000 IU (international units) of vitamin D in 20 minutes sunbathing on a Caribbean beach.

Vitamin D is also unique in another way. It is the only vitamin that is a hormone, a type of steroid hormone known as a secosteroid, with three carbon rings.

Steroid hormones such as cortisone, estrogen, and testosterone have four carbon rings. Ultraviolet B radiation in sunlight breaks open one of the rings in a steroid alcohol present in the skin, 7-dehydrocholesterol, to form vitamin D (cholecalciferol). The liver changes this molecule into its circulating form, 25-hydroxyvitamin D (calcidiol, 25[OH]D), the "vitamin D" blood tests measure. Cells throughout the body absorb 25-hydroxyvitamin D and change it into 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (calcitriol), the active form of vitamin D that attaches directly to receptors on the DNA of genes in the cell’s nucleus.

The vitamin D hormone system controls the expression of more than 200 genes and the proteins they produce. In addition to its well-known role in calcium metabolism, vitamin D activates genes that control cell growth and programmed cell death (apoptosis), express mediators that regulate the immune system, and release neurotransmitters (e.g., serotonin) that influence one’s mental state.

Severe deficiencies of some vitamins cause vitamin-specific diseases, such as beriberi (from a lack of vitamin B1, thiamine), pellagra (B3, niacin), pernicious anemia (B12), and scurvy, (vitamin C). A deficiency in iodine produces a goiter, mental retardation, and, when severe, cretinism.

Rickets, a softening and bending of bones in children, first described in 1651, is another nutritionally-specific disease. It reached epidemic proportions following the industrial revolution, which began in the 1750s. In the 19th century, before the importance of exposing children to sunlight was recognized, the majority of children that lived in cities with sunless, narrow alleyways and pollution developed rickets. An autopsy study done in Boston in the late 1800s showed that more than 80 percent of children had rickets.

Early in the 20th century an investigator found that cod liver oil could prevent rickets in puppies. The nutritional factor in the oil that promotes skeletal calcium deposition was named "vitamin D," alphabetically after already-named vitamins A, B, and C. Rickets was thought to be another vitamin-deficiency disease, and the curative agent, a steroid hormone, was mislabeled a "vitamin."

Now, a century later, a wealth of evidence suggests that rickets, its most florid manifestation, is the tip of a vitamin D insufficiency/deficiency iceberg. A lack of Vitamin D can also trigger infections (influenza and tuberculosis), autoimmune diseases (multiple sclerosis, Type 1 diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, and inflammatory bowel disease), cardiovascular disease, and cancer. Practitioners of conventional medicine (i.e., most MDs) are just beginning to appreciate the true impact of vitamin D deficiency. In 1990, medical journals published less than 20 reviews and editorials on vitamin D. Last year they published more than 300 reviews and editorials on this vitamin/hormone. This year, on July 19, 2007, even the New England Journal of Medicine, the bellwether of pharmaceutically-oriented conventional medicine in the U.S., published a review on vitamin D that addresses its role in autoimmune diseases, infections, cardiovascular disease, and cancer (N Engl J Med 2007;357:266–281).

Up until 1980, doctors thought that vitamin D was only involved in calcium, phosphorus, and bone metabolism. Then two investigators proposed that vitamin D and sunlight could reduce the risk of colon cancer. A growing body of evidence indicates that they were right and that vitamin D can prevent a whole host of cancers – colon, breast, lung, pancreatic, ovarian, and prostate cancer among them. Colon cancer rates are 4 to 6 times higher in North America and Europe, where solar radiation is less intense, particularly during the winter months, compared to the incidence of colon cancer near the equator. People with low blood levels of vitamin D and those who live at higher latitudes are at increased risk for acquiring various kinds of cancer. Many epidemiological, cohort, and case control studies prove, at least on a more likely than not basis, that vitamin D supplements and adequate exposure to sunlight play an important role in cancer prevention (Am J Public Health 2006;96:252–261).

There is now strong scientific evidence that vitamin D does indeed reduce the risk of cancer. Evidence from a well-conducted, randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind trial proves beyond a reasonable doubt that this is the case, at least with regard to breast cancer. A Creighton University study has shown that women over the age of 55 who took a 1,100 IU/day vitamin D supplement, with calcium, and were followed for 4 years had a highly statistically significant (P <0.005) 75% reduction in breast cancer (diagnosed after the first 12 months) compared with women who took a placebo (Am J Clin Nutr 2007;85:1568–1591).

Some of the genes vitamin D activates make proteins that halt cancer by inducing apoptosis (programmed cell death), which destroys aberrant cells before they become cancerous, like adenoma cells in the colon and rectum. Others promote cell differentiation and reining in of out-of-control growth of cancer cells (like prostate cancer cells). Vitamin D-expressed genes inhibit angiogenesis, the formation of new blood vessels that malignant tumors need to grow, as studies on lung and breast cancers show. Other genes inhibit metastases, preventing cancer that arises in one organ from spreading its cells to other parts of the body, as studied in breast, and prostate cancers.

Vitamin D also expresses genes that curb cardiovascular disease. One gene controls the renin-angiotensin system, which when overactive causes hypertension (high blood pressure). Others stifle the immune system-mediated inflammatory response that propagates atherosclerosis and congestive heart failure (Curr Opin Lipidol 2007;18:41–46).

Multiple sclerosis (MS) is a neurologically devastating disease that afflicts people with low vitamin D levels. Its victims include the cellist Jacqueline Du Pré, whose first symptom was loss of sensation in her fingers, and some 500,000 Americans who currently suffer from this malady. MS is an autoimmune disease, where the body’s immune system attacks and destroys its own cells. With multiple sclerosis, T cells in the adaptive immune system, Th1 cells (CD4 T helper type 1 cells), attack the myelin sheath (insulation) of the axons (nerve fibers) that neurons (brain cells) use to transmit electrical signals. The Vitamin D hormone system regulates and tones down the potentially self-destructive actions of Th1 cells. These cells make their own 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D if there is a sufficient amount of vitamin D (25-hydroxyvitamin D) circulating in the blood. Researchers have shown that the risk of MS decreases as the level of vitamin D in the blood increases (JAMA 2006;296:2832–2838). People living at higher latitudes have an increased risk of MS and other autoimmune diseases. Studies show that people who live below latitude 35° (e.g., Atlanta) until the age of 10 reduce the risk of MS by 50% (Toxicology 2002;181–182:71–78 and Eur J Clin Nutr 2004;58:1095–1109).

In a study published earlier this year, researchers evaluated 79 pairs of identical twins where only one twin in each pair had MS, despite having the same genetic susceptibility. They found that the MS-free twin had spent more time outdoors in the sun – during hot days, sun tanning, and at the beach. The authors conclude that sunshine is protective against MS (Neurology 2007;69:381–388).

New research suggests that influenza is also a disease triggered by vitamin D deficiency. Influenza virus exists in the population year-round, but influenza epidemics are seasonal and occur only in the winter (in northern latitudes), when vitamin D blood levels are at their nadir. Vitamin D-expressed genes instruct macrophages, the front-line defenders in the innate immune system, to make antimicrobial peptides, which are like antibiotics (Science 2006;311:1770–1773). These peptides attack and destroy influenza virus particles, and in human carriers keep it at bay. (Neutrophils and natural killer cells in the innate immune system and epithelial cells lining the respiratory tract also synthesize these virucidal peptides.) Other vitamin D-expressed genes rein in macrophages fighting an infection to keep them from overreacting and releasing too many inflammatory agents (cytokines) that can damage infected tissue. In the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic, which killed 50 million people, of which 500,000 were Americans, young healthy adults (as happened to my 22-year-old grandmother) would wake up in the morning feeling well, start drowning in their own inflammation as the day wore on, and be dead by midnight. Autopsies showed complete destruction of the epithelial cells lining the respiratory tract due, as researchers now know, to a macrophage-induced overly severe inflammatory reaction to the virus. These flu victims were attacked and killed by their own immune system, something researchers have found vitamin D can prevent (Epidemiol Infect 2006;134:1129–1140).

Randomized clinical trials need to be done to test the vitamin D theory of influenza. With what we know now, however, perhaps an annual shot of 600,000 IU of vitamin D (Med J Aust 2005;183:10–12) would be more effective in preventing influenza than a jab of flu vaccine.

Our species evolved in equatorial Africa where the sun, shining directly overhead, supplies its inhabitants with year-round ultraviolet B photons for making vitamin D. Our African ancestors absorbed much higher doses of vitamin D living exposed in that environment compared to the amount most humans obtain today. A single mutation that occurred around 50,000 years ago is responsible for the appearance of white skin in humans. It turns out that a difference in one rung, or base pair, in the 3 billion-rung DNA ladder that constitutes the human genome determines the color of one’s skin (Science 2005;310:1782–1786). White skin, with less melanin, synthesizes vitamin D in sunlight six times faster than dark skin. People possessing this mutation were able to migrate to higher latitudes, populate Europe, Asia, and North America, and be able to make enough vitamin D to survive.

The majority of the world’s population now lives above latitude 35° N and is unable to synthesize vitamin D from sunlight for a period of time in winter owing to the angle of the sun. At a large solar zenith angle, ozone in the upper atmosphere will completely block UVB radiation. In Seattle (47° N) and London (52° N), from October to April UVB photons are blocked by the atmosphere so one’s skin cannot make vitamin D. (The half-life of circulating vitamin D is approximately one month.) Making matters worse, even when UVB radiation is available in sunlight, health authorities, led by the American Academy of Dermatology, warn people to shield themselves from the sun to avoid getting skin cancer.

Except for oily fish like (wild-only) salmon, mackerel, and sardines and cod liver oil – and also sun-dried mushrooms – very little vitamin D is naturally present in our food. Milk, orange juice, butter, and breakfast cereal are fortified with vitamin D, but with only 100 IU per serving. One would have to drink 200 8-oz. glasses of milk to obtain as much vitamin D as skin makes fully exposed to the noonday sun.

The U.S. Food and Nutrition Board in the Institute of Medicine puts the Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for vitamin D at 200 IU for children and adults less than 50 years old, 400 IU for adults age 50–70, and 800 IU for adults over the age of 70. Most multivitamin preparations contain 400 IU of vitamin D. These guidelines are directed towards maintaining bone health and are sufficient to prevent rickets – but not cancer, cardiovascular disease, multiple sclerosis, or influenza. Without evidence to support it, the board arbitrarily set the safe upper limit for vitamin D consumption at 2,000 IU/day.

Vitamin D (25-hydroxyvitamin D) blood levels, the barometer for vitamin D status, are measured in nanograms per milliliter (ng/ml) or nanomoles per liter (nmol/l), where ng/ml = 0.4 nmol/l. Children and adults need a vitamin D blood level >8 ng/ml to prevent rickets and osteomalacia (demineralization and softening of bones) respectively. It takes a concentration >20 ng/ml to keep parathyroid hormone levels in a normal range. A level >34 ng/ml is required to ensure peak intestinal calcium absorption. Finally, neuromuscular performance steadily improves in elderly people as vitamin D levels rise up to 50 ng/ml. Accordingly, a vitamin D blood level <8 ng/ml is regarded as severely deficient; 8–19, deficient; and 20–29, insufficient, i.e., too low for good health. A level >30 ng/ml is sufficient, but experts now consider 50–99 ng/ml to be the optimal level of vitamin D. Levels 100–150 ng/ml are excessive and >150 ng/ml, potentially toxic.

A majority of Americans have insufficient or deficient vitamin D blood levels. In veterans undergoing heart surgery at the Seattle VA hospital, I found that 78% had a low vitamin D level: 12% were insufficient; 56%, deficient; and 10% were severely deficient.

In order to enjoy optimal health, we should maintain a vitamin D blood level of ≥50–99 ng/ml. Without sun exposure, to reach a level of 50 ng/ml requires taking a 5,000 IU/day vitamin D supplement. There are two kinds of vitamin D supplements: vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol), the kind our skin makes, and vitamin D2 (ergocalciferol), a synthetic variant made by irradiating plants. Vitamin D2 is only 10–30% as effective in raising 25-hydroxyvitamin D blood levels compared to vitamin D3, leading the authors of a recent study conclude, "Vitamin D2 should not be regarded as a nutrient suitable for supplementation or fortification" (Am J Clin Nutr 2006;84:694–697).

Concerns about vitamin D toxicity are overblown, along with those about sun exposure. As one researcher in the field puts it, "Worrying about vitamin D toxicity is like worrying about drowning when you’re dying of thirst." The LD50 of vitamin D in dogs (the dose that will kill half the animals) is 3,520,000 IU/kilogram. One can take a 10,000 IU vitamin D supplement every day, month after month safely, with no evidence of adverse effect. (Am J Clin Nutr 1999;69:842–856). A person must consume 50,000 IU a day for several months before hypercalcemia (an elevated calcium level in the blood, which is the initial manifestation of vitamin D toxicity) might occur. Vitamin D in a physiologic dose (5,000 IU/day) prevents the build up of calcium in blood vessels. (Circulation 1997;96:1755–1760). If one takes 10,000 IU of vitamin D a day and spends a lot of time in the sun, it would be prudent to check vitamin D blood level to ensure that it does not exceed 100 ng/ml.

Sensible sun exposure should be encouraged, not maligned. If one avoids sunburn, the sun’s health-giving benefits far outweigh its detrimental effects. A large body of evidence indicates that sunlight does not cause the most lethal form of skin cancer, malignant melanoma. A U.S. Navy study found that melanoma occurred more frequently in sailors who worked indoors all the time. Those who worked outdoors had the lowest incidence of melanoma. Also, most melanomas appear on parts of the body that are seldom exposed to sunlight (Arch Environ Health 1990;45:261–267). Sun exposure is associated with increased survival from melanoma (J Natl Cancer Inst 2005;97:195–199). Another study showed that people who had longer lifetime exposure to the sun without burning were less likely to get melanomas than those with less exposure (J Invest Dermatol 2003;120:1087–1093.)

The rise in skin cancers over the last 25 years parallels the rise in use of sunscreen lotions, which block vitamin D-producing UVB radiation but not cancer-causing ultraviolet A radiation (UVA). (Newer sunscreen lotions also block out UVA.) Each year there are 8,000 deaths from melanoma and 1,500 deaths from nonmelanoma (squamous and basal cell) skin cancer. Surgical excision of nonmelanoma skin cancers cures them, except in rare cases where the growth has been allowed to linger for a long time and metastasize. Dr. John Cannell, Executive Director of the Vitamin D Council, makes this point: 1,500 deaths occur each year from non-melanoma skin cancer, but 1,500 deaths occur each day from other cancers that vitamin D in optimal doses might well prevent. (The Vitamin D Council website is an excellent source of information on vitamin D.)

The U.S. government and its citizens currently spend $2,000 billion dollars ($2 trillion) on "health care," i.e., sickness care, each year. The cost of taking a 5,000 IU supplement of vitamin D every day for a year is $22.00. The cost for 300 million Americans taking this supplement would be $6.6 billion dollars. The number and variety of diseases that vitamin D at this dose could prevent, starting with a 50 percent reduction in cancer, is mind-boggling. If everyone took 5,000 IU/day of vitamin D, the U.S. "health care" industry would shrink. It would no longer account for 16 percent of the gross domestic product.

Health food stores typically do not sell vitamin D3 in 5,000 IU tablets, but they are readily available online. BIO-TECH Pharmacal produces both 5,000 and 50,000 IU tablets of Vitamin D3, which online sites sell. Some people prefer to take one 50,000 IU tablet a week (equivalent to 7,100 IU a day) and a three-day course of 150,000 IU vitamin D at the first sign of a cold.

Two sites that sell both "D3-5" (5,000 IU) and "D3-50" (50,000 IU) are here and here.

September 10, 2007

Donald Miller (send him mail) is a cardiac surgeon and Professor of Surgery at the University of Washington in Seattle. He is a member of Doctors for Disaster Preparedness and writes articles on a variety of subjects for LewRockwell.com. His web site is www.donaldmiller.com

----------


## RonRules

> Your study:
> There is now strong scientific evidence that vitamin D does indeed reduce the risk of cancer.


My study:
(from the Journal of the American Medical Association. JAMA, the most prestigious American journal")

When a huge study examining whether vitamin E supplements can reduce the risk of prostate cancer *had to be halted* prematurely in 2008, it was because the men taking vitamin E seemed to be getting no benefit from it. In fact, not only did they not benefit, *they exhibited a higher risk of prostate cancer than the men taking a placebo.*

I'll take MY study instead of YOUR study. Thank you.

----------


## donnay

> My study:
> (from the Journal of the American Medical Association. JAMA, the most prestigious American journal")
> 
> When a huge study examining whether vitamin E supplements can reduce the risk of prostate cancer *had to be halted* prematurely in 2008, it was because the men taking vitamin E seemed to be getting no benefit from it. In fact, not only did they not benefit, *they exhibited a higher risk of prostate cancer than the men taking a placebo.*
> 
> I'll take MY study instead of YOUR study. Thank you.


Well it would be nice if you knew what study you're looking up first.  We were talking about Vitamin D (the hormone) not Vitamin E.

----------


## RonRules

> We were talking about Vitamin D (the hormone) not Vitamin E.


It's irrelevant, they're both toxic at the rates the Quacks prescribe them.

From the Mayo clinic, a highly respected source in case you don't know:

Vitamin D toxicity: What if you get too much?
What is vitamin D toxicity, and should I worry about it since I take supplements?

Answer
from Katherine Zeratsky, R.D., L.D.

Vitamin D toxicity, also called hypervitaminosis D, is a rare but potentially serious condition that occurs when you have excessive amounts of vitamin D in your body.

Vitamin D toxicity is usually caused by megadoses of vitamin D supplements  not by diet or sun exposure. That's because your body regulates the amount of vitamin D produced by sun exposure, and even fortified foods don't contain large amounts of vitamin D.

The main consequence of vitamin D toxicity is a buildup of calcium in your blood (hypercalcemia), which can cause symptoms such as poor appetite, *nausea and vomiting. Weakness, frequent urination and kidney problems also may occur* (Nice!). Treatment includes the stopping of excessive vitamin D intake. Your doctor may also prescribe intravenous fluids and medications, such as corticosteroids or bisphosphonates.

Taking 50,000 international units (IU) a day of vitamin D for several months has been shown to cause toxicity. This level is many times higher than the *recommended dietary allowance (RDA) for most adults of 600 IU of vitamin D a day*. Doses higher than the RDA are sometimes used to treat medical problems such as vitamin D deficiency, but these are given only under the care of a doctor and only for a short time.

Although vitamin D toxicity is uncommon even among people who take supplements, you may be at greater risk if you have health problems, such as liver or kidney conditions, or if you take thiazide-type diuretics. As always, talk to your doctor before taking vitamin and mineral supplements.


So as you can see above, the *Recommended Dietary Allowance is 600 IU of vitamin D a day*


*Look at what the Quacks recommend*:

From your favorite medical news source!:
http://www.naturalnews.com/036491_vi..._starving.html
*Starving for vitamin D*
Tuesday, July 17, 2012 (freshly posted) by: Craig Stellpflug  

(NaturalNews) A study published in the journal Pediatrics found that 70 percent of U.S. children have low levels of vitamin D. "We expected the prevalence of vitamin D deficiency would be high, but the magnitude of the problem nationwide was shocking" says Dr. Juhi Kumar of Children's Hospital at Montefiore Medical Center.

In times past it was known that not enough vitamin D caused a bone disease known as rickets, but more recent discoveries count vitamin D deficiency as a major factor in adult heart disease, stroke, hypertension, autoimmune diseases, diabetes, depression, chronic pain, osteoarthritis, osteoporosis, muscle weakness, muscle wasting, birth defects, periodontal disease, at least 17 varieties of cancer and more.

Vitamin D deficiency has been noted in 69 percent of adult patients with inflammatory joint diseases or connective tissue diseases, 77 percent with soft tissue rheumatism, 62 percent with osteoarthritis, 75 percent with back pain, and 71 percent with osteoporosis.

*The "sunshine" vitamin [Well then, why don't you go to the beach instead?]*

Years ago it was wrongly proposed that the sun was our enemy and that sunshine caused skin cancer. Boy were we wrong! The opposite it true and our abuse of sunblock goops is growing in lock-step with the growing numbers for skin cancer.

The skin makes the best form of vitamin D from sun exposure and produces approximately 10,000 IU of vitamin D with just 20-30 minutes of full-body summer sun exposure. Sunlight exposure is the best way to get Vitamin D, as the body automatically regulates how much Vitamin D it makes from sunlight. The body stores vitamin D for up to six months.

Then there is the added benefit of vitamin D controlling cholesterol levels. Since vitamin D precursors require cholesterol for conversion, without adequate sun exposure, vitamin D precursors can turn into cholesterol instead of the vitamin. Conversely, statin drugs hamper the body's vitamin D levels.

Vitamin D is essential for the absorption of calcium. A person deficient in vitamin D doesn't absorb enough calcium, even if the intake of calcium is high. Vitamin D is also an anticancer miracle being part of a metabolic product called calcitriol that influences some 2,000 genes in the body. Vitamin D has also repeatedly shown great promise in fighting off colds and flu, and people who are D-deficient are more likely to get sick.

Where to get your vitamin D

The best source of vitamin D comes from the sun - which makes supplementing with cholecalciferol (D-3) pills second best. Being an oil-soluble vitamin, at least a portion D-3 should be from cod liver oil, so that some Vitamin A and other oils' fractions are included. If you are taking a large daily dose of Vitamin D, divide the dose between two or three meals.

Diet sources of vitamin D are fatty fish and fish liver oils, mushrooms, eggs and raw milk. Some foods, such as milk and orange juice, are fortified with vitamin D, but the form of vitamin D used for fortification is not best.

Read your labels and *definitely avoid the Big Pharma* version called calcitrol vitamin D. Take too much synthetic vitamin D and you might just end up with muscle weakness, apathy, headache, anorexia, irritability, nausea, vomiting, and bone pain. Keep on taking too much and you could *get constipation, anorexia, abdominal cramps, polydipsia, polyuria, backache, hyperlipidemia, and hypercalcemia.* (nice!)

Dosing D

A blood test can determine where your actual vitamin D levels are. The Vitamin D Council recommends blood levels between 50-80 ng/mL. Adults can *safely supplement with D-3 in divided doses up to 10,000 IU a day.* If you *have cancer your naturopath may prescribe much more.*

[Holly crap. These people are killers!]

The American Academy of Pediatrics recently updated its vitamin D guidelines for infants, children, and teens to 400 IU per day in supplement form although many health experts say that amount is still far too low.

About the author:
Craig Stellpflug is a Cancer Nutrition Specialist, *Lifestyle Coach*  and *Neuro Development Consultant* (BS in other words) at Healing Pathways Medical Clinic, Scottsdale, AZ. http://www.*healingpathwayscancerclinic*.com/ 
With 17 years of clinical experience working with both brain disorders and cancer, Craig has seen first-hand the devastating effects of vaccines and pharmaceuticals on the human body and has come to the conclusion that a natural lifestyle and natural remedies are the true answers to health and vibrant living. You can find his daily health blog at www.blog.realhealthtalk.com and his articles and radio show archives at www.realhealthtalk.com


Pro Tip: If the article includes the word "Healing", it's crap.

----------


## donnay

> It's irrelevant, they're both toxic at the rates the Quacks prescribe them.


I have come to the conclusion your posts are irrelevant.

I have two words for you:  Codex Alimentarius.

----------


## LibertyEagle

> "According to the Council for Responsible Nutrition, *150 million Americans currently take dietary supplements*. In a gift to the industry, *Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah* pushed through legislation 17 years ago that allows supplement manufacturers to make health claims for their products, with no need for federal regulators to OK them. Thats why manufacturers typically say things like These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration, as Nature Mades website puts it. In other words, dont go looking for warning labels on bottles of vitamins any time soon."
> 
> There's lots of vitamin producers in Utah. Cults are notorious for pushing various scams that have no effectiveness, are sometimes dangerous, are hyped to the extreme, cost very little to make and consequently highly profitable. 
> 
> For the most part (except for people with identified deficiencies),* vitamins are a scam.*


Says RonRules.

----------


## donnay

> *
> Girl survives rabies without vaccination* 
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43377860...t-vaccination/
> 
> Of course they tell us this is very, very rare.  
> 
> http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...ff_rabies/all/
> http://digitaljournal.com/article/262361
> 
> ...


*
Rare group in Peru shows resistance to rabies*

*AFP* – Wed, Aug 1, 2012

Scientists said Wednesday that a rare group of people in the Peruvian Amazon appears to have some natural resistance to rabies, which is widely considered fatal if not immediately treated.

The research reported in the American Journal of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene is based on blood samples from six people who said they had never been vaccinated against rabies.

But the group showed "rabies virus-neutralizing antibodies," indicating for the first time that some people may develop an immune response that scientists could study in order to find new paths to treatment.

"The overwhelming majority of rabies exposures that proceed to infections are fatal," said lead author Amy Gilbert with the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's National Center for Emerging and Zoonotic Infectious Diseases.

"However, our results open the door to the idea that there may be some type of natural resistance or enhanced immune response in certain communities regularly exposed to the disease," she said.

"This means there may be ways to develop effective treatments that can save lives in areas where rabies remains a persistent cause of death."

The research was conducted in two remote communities, Trueno Cocha and Santa Marta, in the northern Peruvian Amazon, where fatal rabies infections caused by vampire bat bites are common.

Blood samples were taken from 63 people, and seven were found to have rabies virus-neutralizing antibodies. Only one of the seven reported receiving a rabies vaccination that would have generated antibodies to rabies.

The World Health Organization says more than 55,000 people die worldwide of rabies each year.

Bats are the source of most human rabies deaths in the United States and Canada, and bat rabies has more recently emerged as a public health threat in Australia, Latin America and western Europe, according to the WHO.

The incubation period for rabies ranges from one week to one year. Symptoms often begin with fever and a tingling feeling at the site of the wound, then progress to inflammation of the brain and spine.

Patients may die of brain hemorrhage, heart attack or total muscle paralysis.

Anyone who believes they may have been exposed to rabies is urged to immediately seek treatment with a series of shots that can ward off an active infection.

"We all still agree that nearly everyone who is found to be experiencing clinical symptoms of rabies dies," Gilbert said.

"But we may be missing cases from isolated high-risk areas where people are exposed to rabies virus and, for whatever reason, they don't develop disease."


-------------------------

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-nsf072712.php
*
New study finds strong evidence of humans surviving rabies bites without treatment*
First indication of people naturally protected against rabies found in remote Amazonian communities regularly exposed to vampire bats

This press release is available in Spanish.

Deerfield, IL (August 1, 2012) Challenging conventional wisdom that rabies infections are 100 percent fatal unless immediately treated, scientists studying remote populations in the Peruvian Amazon at risk of rabies from vampire bats found 11 percent of those tested showed protection against the disease, with only one person reporting a prior rabies vaccination. Ten percent appear to have survived exposure to the virus without any medical intervention. The findings from investigators at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) were published today in the August 2012 issue of the American Journal of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene.

"The overwhelming majority of rabies exposures that proceed to infections are fatal. However, our results open the door to the idea that there may be some type of natural resistance or enhanced immune response in certain communities regularly exposed to the disease," said Amy Gilbert with the CDC's National Center for Emerging and Zoonotic Infectious Diseases, who is the paper's lead author. "This means there may be ways to develop effective treatments that can save lives in areas where rabies remains a persistent cause of death."

Rabies experts estimate the disease kills 55,000 people each year in Africa and Asia alone, and appears to be on the rise in China, the former Soviet Republics, southern Africa, and Central and South America. According to the CDC, in the United States, human deaths from rabies have declined over the past century from 100 annually to an average of two per year thanks to an aggressive campaign to vaccinate domestic animals against the disease.

In general, people who believe they may have been exposed to rabies are advised to immediately seek treatment which involves post-exposure prophylaxis (PEP) - a series of injections - to prevent the exposure from causing an active infection. These preventive treatments, when administered promptly, are 100 percent successful at preventing disease. Scientists have documented only a small number of individual cases, including one last year in California, in which an exposure to rabies proceeded to infection and the victim survived. Most of those survivors still required intensive medical attention, including one case in Wisconsin in which doctors induced a coma, though this approach has not been successful in most subsequent cases.

This CDC study was conducted in collaboration with the Peruvian Ministry of Health as part of a larger project to understand better bat-human interactions and its relation to rabies and emerging diseases that may be transmitted by bats. For their research, scientists traveled to two communities (Truenococha and Santa Marta) in a remote section of the Peruvian Amazon where outbreaks of fatal infections with rabies caused by bites from vampire bats—the most common "natural reservoir" for the disease in Latin America— have occurred regularly over the last two decades. They interviewed 92 people, 50 of whom reported previous bat bites. Blood samples were taken from 63 individuals and seven (11 percent) were found to have "rabies virus neutralizing antibodies."

One out of the seven individuals reported receiving a rabies vaccination—which generates antibodies to the rabies virus—but there was no evidence that the other six had received anti-rabies vaccine prior to the blood sampling or had sought out any medical attention for a bat bite, evidence that they had harbored the virus itself.

The researchers acknowledged that they could not conclusively determine whether the antibodies were caused by an exposure to the virus that was somehow insufficient to produce disease. But they believe their evidence "suggests that (rabies virus) exposure is not invariably fatal to humans."

Gilbert said non-fatal exposures may happen more often than some think because "unless people have clinical symptoms of the disease they may not go to the hospital or clinic, particularly where access is limited."

"We all still agree that nearly everyone who is found to be experiencing clinical symptoms of rabies dies," Gilbert said. "But we may be missing cases from isolated high-risk areas where people are exposed to rabies virus and, for whatever reason, they don't develop disease."

In the Amazon region where the study was conducted—the Province Datem del Maranon in the Loreto Department of northern Peru—vampire bats, which live off of mammalian blood, regularly come out at night and prefer to feed on livestock. But in the absence of those food sources, they are known to seek out a meal from humans. They can use their extremely sharp teeth and the anticoagulant that naturally occurs in their saliva (appropriately referred to as "draculin") to feed on a sleeping person without awakening them. The rabies virus circulates extensively among vampire bat colonies in the region, and when an infected bat feeds, it passes along the virus to its host.

"This type of thorough and persistent scientific rabies investigation lends continued support to the belief that even the most dangerous of infectious diseases may be amenable to treatment," said James W. Kazura, MD noted infectious disease expert and president of the American Society of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene (ASTMH). "Continued investment of resources is essential for us to protect the health and well-being of innocent people whose lives and livelihoods are needlessly threatened by infectious diseases like rabies."

Gilbert and her colleagues hope their findings will prompt further studies in remote, at-risk communities to see if the results are replicated. In an editorial accompanying the study, Rodney E. Willoughby, a pediatric disease specialist at Children's Hospital of Wisconsin, said if it turns out there are distinct populations of people with "complete or relative resistance to rabies," there could be the potential to use whole genome sequencing to help develop new, life-saving treatments for rabies infections.

"Careful, respectful genetic study of these genetically unique populations may provide information on which pathways in human biochemistry and physiology promote resistance to human rabies," he wrote. "Equally important, knowing that there is a continuum of disease, even for infectious diseases like rabies, should push us harder to try for cures when confronted by so-called untreatable infectious diseases…."

Gilbert noted that the study was done as part of a larger public health effort to address a series of rabies outbreaks in the Amazon, where some health officials are now considering conducting pre-emptive vaccination campaigns in areas where risk of rabies is high and availability of medical care low. She said that while her study highlights people who appear to have survived an exposure to the virus, the fact remains that rabies outbreaks in small communities in the region have left tragic results.

"These are very small villages and, when they witness ten people dying from what is a horrible disease, it is incredibly traumatic," Gilbert said. "We want to help raise awareness of the problem and try to develop a more proactive response."

###

About the American Society of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene

ASTMH, founded in 1903, is a worldwide organization of scientists, clinicians and program professionals whose mission is to promote global health through the prevention and control of infectious and other diseases that disproportionately afflict the global poor.

About the American Journal of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene

Continuously published since 1921, AJTMH is the peer-reviewed journal of the American Society of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene, and the world's leading voice in the fields of tropical medicine and global health. AJTMH disseminates new knowledge in fundamental, translational, clinical and public health sciences focusing on improving global health.


---------------------------------
*
Untreated Rabies May Not Be Lethal for All, Study Says*
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/ma...iclekey=160950

By Maureen Salamon
HealthDay Reporter
Latest Infectious Disease News


WEDNESDAY, Aug. 1 (HealthDay News) -- Bucking the notion that untreated rabies always proves lethal to humans, scientists studying the virus in isolated pockets of the world have found evidence that either natural resistance or an immune response may stave off certain death for some.

Traveling to the Peruvian Amazon, where outbreaks of rabies infections are spurred by highly common vampire bats, researchers from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention learned that 10 percent of natives appeared to have survived exposure to the virus without any medical intervention. Another 11 percent were found to have antibodies in their blood that would neutralize rabies.

"This is a potential game-changer if the study is repeated successfully," said Dr. Rodney Willoughby Jr., a pediatric infectious disease specialist at Children's Hospital of Wisconsin and the author of an editorial accompanying the research. "It suggests either that rabies is not universally severe or fatal [HIV used to be thought of this way] or that there are ways of conferring relative resistance to rabies in humans. If the latter could be identified -- these days, probably through genetic sequencing -- then that might afford insights into prevention or treatment."

The study is published Aug. 1 in the American Journal of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene.

An average of two to four people die in the United States each year of rabies after bites from animals such as bats, dogs or raccoons. Though nearly wiped out in the United States due to domestic animal vaccinations, the infection kills about 55,000 annually in Africa and Asia alone. For those who believe they're infected, a series of shots are 100 percent effective at preventing death.

In Peru, vampire bats regularly seek out meals of mammalian blood from livestock and humans, using extremely sharp teeth and a blood thinner in their saliva aptly known as draculin to feed on sleeping people without awakening them.

CDC researchers interviewed 92 people, 50 of whom reported previous bat bites. Blood samples were taken from 63 participants, with seven found to have rabies virus-neutralizing antibodies. Only one of the seven reported receiving a rabies vaccination, which would generate such antibodies, but no evidence existed that the rest had sought either a vaccination or treatment for a bat bite.

Study author Amy Gilbert, a postdoctoral fellow with the CDC's National Center for Emerging and Zoonotic Infectious Diseases, said the research suggests the rabies virus is not invariably fatal to people.

"Generally, most folks presume we don't develop antibodies to respond to rabies exposures," she said, "but this was a scenario where clearly there were exposures to the virus that did not lead to disease. I think the same recommendations and advice still hold -- that anyone with a bite exposure to a bat or other carnivore needs to seek out post-exposure [injections]."

In his editorial, Willoughby noted two recent cases in the United States (in Texas and California) where children recovered from rabies without intensive treatment after suspected bat bites.

"Knowing that there is a continuum of disease, even for infectious diseases like rabies, should push us harder to try for cures when confronted by so-called untreatable infectious diseases," he wrote. "Modern therapeutics can move us . . . toward greater survival, even when specific cures or antidotes remain undiscovered."

MedicalNewsCopyright © 2012 HealthDay. All rights reserved.

SOURCES: Amy Gilbert, Ph.D., postdoctoral fellow, National Center for Emerging and Zoonotic Infectious Diseases, U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta; Rodney Willoughby Jr., M.D., pediatric infectious disease specialist, Children's Hospital of Wisconsin, Milwaukee; Aug. 1, 2012, American Journal of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene

----------


## Anti Federalist

> *
> Rare group in Peru shows resistance to rabies*
> 
> *AFP* – Wed, Aug 1, 2012


How about that? 

Interesting.

The human immune system works and adapts.

----------


## Acala

> How about that? 
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> The human immune system works and adapts.


Yup.  But don't forget that one of the most important ways it adapts is by killing off the non-adapted genetic lines.  That's groovy if you are in the adapted pool.  Non-adapted, not so much.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Says RonRules.


This^^  Vitamins work perfectly for those with a healthy pH balance (can be determined with pH strips via saliva or urine).  If your pH balance is bad, supplements will just give you expensive urine for the most part.

----------


## RonRules

> Well it would be nice if you knew what study you're looking up first.  We were talking about Vitamin D (the hormone) not Vitamin E.


“Don’t read anything by this writer. He’s obviously mentally ill. He wants you to stop vaccinating your children, so they can catch life-threatening diseases.”  Bill Gates.

----------


## farreri

> “Don’t read anything by this writer. He’s obviously mentally ill. He wants you to stop vaccinating your children, so they can catch life-threatening diseases.”  Bill Gates.


Kinda ironic quote coming from a man who created the most virus-prone software.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> “Don’t read anything by this writer. He’s obviously mentally ill. He wants you to stop vaccinating your children, so they can catch life-threatening diseases.”  Bill Gates.


Bill Gates (of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation) is a credible source to you?  The same Bill who teamed up with Bloomberg to stop people smoking "around the world"?  And who hired a senior executive [Dr. Trevor Mundel] at the pharmaceutical company Novartis AG as president of the Gates' Foundation?  Yep, let's not question this.  Nothing to see here.  Move along, folks.

----------


## awake

When you buy something it should work. Tell me the last time a person got a flu vaccine and it, with out a scientific doubt, stopped that individual from getting the flu? Most people run it all on faith; that's it. If they don't get the flu it must have been the shot, if they get the flu any way they say it lessens the severity of the flu. Both apologies for a complete waste of time.

----------


## RonRules

> When you buy something it should work. Tell me the last time a person got a flu vaccine echinacea and it, with out a scientific doubt, stopped that individual from getting the flu a cold? Most people run it all on faith; that's it. If they don't get the flu it must have been the shot echinacea , if they get the flu any way they say it lessens the severity of the flu the cold. Both apologies for a complete waste of time.


You see how silly you sound?

Fun fact: "echinacea" is not in Bill Gates's spell checker. The suggestion is "chinaware".

----------


## awake

> You see how silly you sound?
> 
> Fun fact: "echinacea" is not in Bill Gates's spell checker. The suggestion is "chinaware".


You've simply proved my point. Chicken soup and flu vaccine; pushed in much the same way for the same motivations. The difference is the chicken soup industry doesn't usually have cards checking your consumption and quasi inspectors to make sure you keep up your consumption.

----------


## angelatc

> How about that? 
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> The human immune system works and adapts.


From the article: 


> The research was conducted in two remote communities, Trueno Cocha and Santa Marta, in the northern Peruvian Amazon, where fatal rabies infections caused by vampire bat bites are common.


Is your position that it's better to wait for another 50000 years, and ten times as many lives, for humanity to possibly develop a natural immunity than it is for scientists to try to speed things up a bit?

----------


## angelatc

Double post.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> From the article: 
> 
> Is your position that it's better to wait for another 50000 years, and ten times as many lives, for humanity to possibly develop a natural immunity than it is for scientists to try to speed things up a bit?


You don't see how that begs the question?

----------


## PierzStyx

> Learn about mutations. 
> 
> Viruses mutate at least on a yearly basis, which is why the elderly to take a new flu shot every year.
> 
> Even if vaccinated, viruses mutate and the vaccine is no longer effective.
> 
> If EVERYONE is vaccinated, the virus is gone. That's why.


No its not. It simply mutates again. Vaccines aren't 100% effective so the virus always survives. It just mutates and spreads. Its the reason you have to keep getting vaccines for things almost the entire population is vaccinated against, such as the flu.

----------


## James Madison

> No its not. It simply mutates again. Vaccines aren't 100% effective so the virus always survives. It just mutates and spreads. Its the reason you have to keep getting vaccines for things almost the entire population is vaccinated against, such as the flu.


Influenza is an exception to the rule. I won't bore you with the science but long story short, the unique genetics of the flu virus explains why it mutates so rapidly. Smallpox is a good example of a virus that, although highly virulent, evolves slowly enough to the point we can eradicate it if everyone is vaccinated.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> When you buy something it should work. Tell me the last time a person got a flu vaccine and it, with out a scientific doubt, stopped that individual from getting the flu? Most people run it all on faith; that's it. If they don't get the flu it must have been the shot, if they get the flu any way they say it lessens the severity of the flu. Both apologies for a complete waste of time.


+rep 

People don't seem to want to think about faith while they are dogmatically repeating the word "science."  The irony runs deep.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> No its not. It simply mutates again. Vaccines aren't 100% effective so the virus always survives. It just mutates and spreads. Its the reason you have to keep getting vaccines for things almost the entire population is vaccinated against, such as the flu.


How convenient.  EVERYONE has to get it or it doesn't work.  I'm sure the government loves that.  It's kinda like Santa Claus.

----------


## RonRules

*Engaging the Anti-vaxxers*



A BOOK REVIEW BY CHRISTIAN ORLIC

On May 14, 1796, Edward Jenner developed and tested the first vaccine. He was able to protect people from smallpox by inoculating them with cowpox. Two centuries later vaccines have eradicated diseases and are often described as one of public health’s greatest achievements. *According to the CDC vaccines have been highly successful and by 1996 there was 97.8% decrease in the incidence of rubella, diphtheria, haemophilus influenza type b, measles, mumps, pertussis, polio and tetanus* .

Nevertheless, American parents appear to be more anxious than ever about vaccinating their children. Currently, American children receive at least 36 vaccinations before their sixth birthday. Some vaccines protect children and people against devastating communicable diseases that if when left unvaccinated would result in epidemics within communities. Nowadays about 40% of American parents chose to delay or refuse vaccinations for their children. Most of the children who have received no vaccines have slipped through the cracks: they are poor and have no insurance (20–40% of unvaccinated children). About 11.5% of American parents have “consciously refused” vaccines recommended by pediatricians, and about 23% have delayed some vaccines . Currently, all U.S. states allow vaccine exemptions for medical reasons, 48 states also allow children to be exempt for religious reasons, and some have even begun accepting philosophical objections.

Mark A. Largent is a historian of biology and director of Science, Technology, Environment, Public Policy (STEPPS) at Michigan State University. Largent’s previous book, Breeding Contempt, deals with the history of coerced sterilization in the United States. In Vaccine: The Debate in Modern America, Largent couples historical scholarship, keen cultural observations, and personal experiences in order to explore the American debate surrounding vaccination.

 Largent’s provocative but compelling argument suggests that the debate about the science, safety and efficacy of vaccination is a proxy for a set of unaddressed underlying anxieties regarding vaccines; therefore, science is not enough to resolve it, “no scientific finding and no agreement among physicians and scientists can possibly bring it [the debate] to an end”.

The book sets out to explore these anxieties and understand where and how they originated. Largent’s insightful observations provide ways in which the debate can be moved forward by addressing the anxieties parents have directly, rather than bickering about “simplistic stand-ins”. The anxieties that motivate the debate are over the number of vaccinations required, the diseases for which we vaccinate, the contents of vaccines, a perception that pharmaceutical companies care more about profits than safety, recent public health emergencies, fears over the long term effects of vaccinations, a belief that natural is better, as well as an overall frustration with the state of medical care. These underlying anxieties, Largent argues, must be addressed in order to continue enjoying high levels of vaccine compliance: “our continuing success in vaccinating children depends on whether the public has confidence in the scientists, doctors, and policy makers (including industry) who shape these programs”.

The current debate surrounding vaccinations is bipartisan, and those who oppose vaccines use both liberal and conservative arguments. The anti-vaccine movement was influenced by alternative medicine and recent events. For example, when AIDS was first described, Eva Lee Snead claimed it was linked to the polio vaccine. Some concerns about vaccines are and have been legitimate. When polio vaccines were first developed, kidney tissue from chimpanzees was used. In fact, this process was unsafe, and tens of millions of people were unintentionally infected with SV40. The fears expressed by Snead were thus not unwarranted; if one virus could make the cross-species jump, others could too. Since then, however, studies have disproven the link between the polio inoculations and HIV. Likewise, the alleged link between Gulf War Syndrome and vaccines given to soldiers is now debunked. Largent concludes that both of these public health emergencies fed suspicions about the safety of vaccines.

The claim that vaccines were linked to autism emerged at the same time in the U.S. and in the UK. These claims could only emerge because “modern concerns about vaccines were already in place”. Largent may come off as too sympathetic to Dr. Wakefield and Jenny McCarthy, “the iconic vaccine-anxious parent”; however, I submit, that this is required for both good history and understanding. By at least momentarily embracing the views of those who opposed vaccination, we come to understand why they hold these views and how they developed them. Chapter 3 and 4 of Largent’s book explore how Wakefield and McCarthy came to believe that vaccines cause autism and how they became spokespeople for an already anxious community. Their rapid rise to celebrity within their community supports the assertion that British and American parents were already anxious. Therefore, it should not surprise observers “how easily they adopted an explanation that was critical of the modern vaccine schedule”. The alleged link between thimerosal and autism, as well as that of the MMR vaccine with digestive problems resulting in developmental problems, provided “a ready-made venue for discussing their concerns about vaccines within a group of like-minded advocates”(12). While Largent recognizes that there is no evidence to support either Wakefield or McCarthy claims, he thinks that their outright dismissal is detrimental to maintaining high levels of vaccine compliance.

Largent argues that by ignoring the underlying anxieties public health officials and vaccine advocates have misconstrued the reasons parents chose not to vaccinate or delay vaccination. Secondly, public health officials prefer to discuss the efficacy and safety of vaccines because this is within their professional realm. Vaccine advocates often claim that ignorance is one of the reasons parents are anxious about vaccinating their children. They claim that this refusal to vaccinate is predicated by an ignorance of the severity of the diseases for which vaccines protect. *Whereas, data demonstrates that the more educated parents are the more likely they are to have reservations about the recommended vaccine schedule.*  (Wow, Just Wow) These parents for the most part are making conscious, non-religious, decisions to refuse or delay vaccinating their children. Further antagonizing them rather than addressing underlying anxieties is likely to reduce vaccine compliance.

One of the most important observations made by Largent is that not all vaccines are the same. Some vaccines protect against devastating diseases (MMR, DPT), others protect against dangerous ones (Hep A, Hep B, Hib, rotavirus, PCV) but the likelihood that an infant may be exposed to these is low, and other vaccinations provide protection against diseases with extremely low mortality rates (chickenpox). The distinction between the diseases each vaccine protects from are often forgotten. For example, Largent argues that some of the diseases we vaccinate newly born babies against may be unnecessary, such as HepB, a disease that an infant could only “contract by having sex with an infected person or by sharing contaminated needles with an infected drug addict” could wait. Public health officials should keep in mind that it is preferable for children to be under vaccinated than not vaccinated at all. Unfortunately, the vaccine debate is polarized. *Amanda O’Peet, who supports vaccination, referred to the parents of unvaccinated children as “parasites”*  (Good) but: (she later apologized). Recognizing that not all vaccines are equal could sooth the rhetoric of the debate and allow for a more fruitful discussion. Otherwise, parents who are anxious about the amount of vaccines or one specific vaccine may be pushed not to vaccinate at all. Failing to recognize the differences between different inoculations results in an all or nothing approach.

----------


## XTreat

Just my two cents, after reading up some on this vaccine stuff I called a friend of mine from highschool who now works at some fancy hospital in New York City*making vaccines*.

She actually creates new ones, which I thought kinda made her knowledgeable on the subject. Long story short of course she vaccinated both of her kids, she said it was not without risk but a greater risk to go without.

She did mention several methods I have forgotten the names of that made the vaccination process safer and said she recommended them to skeptic parents.


Just my 2 cents.

----------


## XTreat

Just my two cents, after reading up some on this vaccine stuff I called a friend of mine from highschool who now works at some fancy hospital in New York City*making vaccines*.

She actually creates new ones, which I thought kinda made her knowledgeable on the subject. Long story short of course she vaccinated both of her kids, she said it was not without risk but a greater risk to go without.

She did mention several methods I have forgotten the names of that made the vaccination process safer and said she recommended them to skeptic parents.


Just my 2 cents.

----------


## RonRules

*5 Ridiculous Lies That Fooled the Whole World*

Guess who made it to #1!
http://www.cracked.com/article_20007...-world_p2.html

*#1. Andrew Wakefield Screws the MMR Vaccine*



The MMR vaccine is an immunization shot you probably got as a baby that is supposed to prevent the measles and other diseases. These days, quite a few parents refuse the shot, because they heard somewhere that the vaccine somehow causes autism. They may have heard it from Jenny McCarthy or some other actor, but the whole thing goes back to a shady scientist named Andrew Wakefield.

In 1998, Wakefield and 12 other scientists published a paper on 12 kids who had gastrointestinal and developmental issues. According to their totally objective parents, these issues only showed up after the kids got their MMR vaccine. After a crazy battery of tests that included sampling the kids' intestines and stabbing needles into their spines (as we have written countless times before, science is at its best when it is scaring children), Wakefield concluded that there might be some link between the MMR vaccine and the various ailments that had befallen the children.
Just like that, Wakefield became the champion of the anti-vaccination movement, spurring on a generation of parents who forgo vaccines for fear of giving their children autism or other developmental disorders.

*The Con:*
*First, let's make it clear: The science shows that vaccines do not cause autism.* If you don't believe the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, you can look at the tens of thousands of non-U.S. children whose autism (or lack thereof) hasn't been tied to vaccines (or lack thereof). However, the subject has been the source of fierce controversy over the past few years, and what is so terrifying about the sudden drop in vaccinations (other than the now-epidemic levels of previously controlled diseases) is that most of the controversy came from dime-store scientist Andrew Wakefield.
For starters, Wakefield's own scientist couldn't duplicate Wakefield's results. Wakefield also manipulated his data to ensure that children who were sick before getting the vaccine were reported as only being sick after. He flat-out changed results he didn't like or that didn't completely agree with his hypothesis, all while performing needless, painful tests on children.

So why would he do all that?
Well, there's the patent for a new MMR vaccine that Wakefield filled out before he published his paper, and the money he accepted from a legal aid fund that was trying to sue vaccine manufacturers (it's almost as if he had a massive financial stake in scaring people into believing that the MMR vaccine was dangerous).
The paper was so flawed that 10 authors and the publisher of the journal it appeared in have retracted the work. That's right -- the people who helped create and publish the paper now say that it's bull$#@!. But don't worry -- *stuff like this has a way of hanging around forever -- just ask the people who are still insisting that fluoride is poison 70 years later.*

Enjoy!

----------


## majinkoola

> That's right -- the people who helped create and publish the paper now say that it's bull$#@!. But don't worry -- *stuff like this has a way of hanging around forever -- just ask the people who are still insisting that fluoride is poison 70 years later.*
> 
> Enjoy!


Is Harvard a reputable source?

*Harvard Study Finds Fluoride Lowers IQ - Published in Federal Gov't Journal*

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...12+PRN20120724

----------


## awake

Flu shot study shows it does more harm than good...read it before it gets memory holed.

----------


## RonRules

> *Harvard Study Finds Fluoride Lowers IQ - Published in Federal Gov't Journal*


I prefer nice teeth!

----------


## Dr.3D

> I prefer nice teeth!


Yep, it's better to have a lot of stupid people with nice teeth.    LOL

----------


## libertyjam

> Is Harvard a reputable source?
> 
> *Harvard Study Finds Fluoride Lowers IQ - Published in Federal Gov't Journal*
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...12+PRN20120724


Case in point: it must be true that fluoride makes you dumber, look at RonRules.

----------


## dancjm

@RonRules

I don't get you.

You said "I believe in the non-aggression principle." yet you argue for the right to inject people against their will.

You say that people's concerns with Vaccines are "idiocy" but you must realize that peoples concerns are for the welfare of their children, and their concerns are based on scientific evidence - I assume that you recognize that vaccines carry a health risk.

For someone who claims to support Ron Paul (I assume you do based on your username), you could do with taking a leaf out of his book.

By all means make the case for the benefit of vaccines, but at the same time do not ignore all of the evidence which suggests a health risk associated with them.

Try to understand that peoples concerns are for their health and that of their families, and that in large part what they object to is not the use of vaccines for those who will voluntarily have them, but the use of force on those who chose not to have them.

As Ron Paul himself has said, vaccination must be a personal choice in a free society.

You can argue that vaccines protect society from disease, but you can also argue that spying on everyone protects society from terrorism, you can argue that banning weapons protects society from violence, you can argue that drug laws protect society from vice and poor health.

The fact is, sacrificing principle for "the greater good" is the province of dictators and tyrants. The "ends justifies the means" has been the basis for some of the ugliest things we have seen throughout history.

I have no doubt that your intentions are good, but remember, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

----------


## angelatc

> Case in point: it must be true that fluoride makes you dumber, look at RonRules.


You can't refute his claims, so you call him names.  Real nice..  When the dollar collapses, and daily showers become a distant memory, you will certainly console yourself with the fact that the outbreaks of disease are still somebody else's fault.

Who in their right mind wants to listen to this stuff that Ron Paul, a man of science, would almost certainly reject as nonsense?

It's some circles, it's beyond laughable that "well, they don't work for everybody, so therefore they don't work" would ever be considered a valid argument. As would, 'It's because of cleanliness!!!"  But people here stand by that proudly.  It should be embarrassing, not embraced.

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## libertyjam

> You can't refute his claims, so you call him names.  .


RR's, has no and makes no claims to refute. He just posts mean spirited ad hom. attacks, insults and degradations against an entire class of readers and posters, I figure that means that he is fair game to any and all members of that class that he derides.

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## donnay

> You can't refute his claims, so you call him names.  Real nice..  *When the dollar collapses, and daily showers become a distant memory, you will certainly console yourself with the fact that the outbreaks of disease are still somebody else's fault.*
> 
> Who in their right mind wants to listen to this stuff that Ron Paul, a man of science, would almost certainly reject as nonsense?
> 
> It's some circles, it's beyond laughable that "well, they don't work for everybody, so therefore they don't work" would ever be considered a valid argument. As would, 'It's because of cleanliness!!!"  But people here stand by that proudly.  It should be embarrassing, not embraced.



Oh so you are willing to admit sanitation and hygiene--not vaccines, were the reason why most of the diseases diminished?

----------


## EBounding

Did anyone win the debate yet?  

The way I understand vaccines, is they don't work unless a large majority of the population has them.  That's because they are not 100% effective, so you can still get sick even if you are vaccinated, _and you most definitely will if no one else is vaccinated._  But having several vaccinated people around you creates a "shield" and makes it much less likely that you will get the disease.  It's called herd immunity.

I wasn't sure about vaccinations, but this video helped explain it (was this posted already?). Try to ignore the annoying condescending narrator mocking anti-vaxers:




Here's the simulation:

http://www.shanekillian.org/apps/herd.html

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## RonRules

> As Ron Paul himself has said, vaccination must be a personal choice in a free society.


Show me where Ron Paul said that.

If he did, he needs to have his doctor license yanked.

----------


## EBounding

> Show me where Ron Paul said that.
> 
> If he did, he needs to have his doctor license yanked.


I think they're referring to this:



He's not anti-vaccine, but thinks vaccines are given too often.  

But one thing that's troubling to me is he says that if you don't get a polio vaccine, that doesn't affect me.  Well it does, because vaccines don't work unless a large majority of people are vaccinated as well.

I don't think there should be a law compelling vaccinations, but if your child is healthy enough and not allergic to the vaccine, you have a moral obligation to do it.

----------


## Meatwasp

> pretty much everything you wrote is wrong.. I'll leave it at that. I am sure you cannot be convinced otherwise.
> 
> good luck forcing those of us who are informed enough to see through this ridiculousness into injecting poison into the veins of those we are responsible to protect.


I figured he was one of those junk science worshipers. Right on Krotin.

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## RonRules

> But one thing that's troubling to me is he says that if you don't get a polio vaccine, that doesn't affect me.  Well it does, because vaccines don't work unless a large majority of people are vaccinated as well.


Clearly Ron Paul does not understand herd immunity. That's pretty sad that a doctor of his age, having gone through the polio epidemic would not understand that.  He does say that the polio and smallpox vaccines has been "fantastic", but that's not enough. You need herd immunity because vaccines are not 100% effective and a small percentage of the population are allergic to vaccines. The rest have to take them.

NOT taking vaccines is a form of aggression against me and my children. I see no problem in making vaccines mandatory, just like it's mandatory that you don't throw out toilet water in the street.

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## DGambler

> NOT taking vaccines is a form of aggression against me and my children. I see no problem in making vaccines mandatory, just like it's mandatory that you don't throw out toilet water in the street.


Even chickenpox? Heb b?

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## RonRules

> Even chickenpox? Heb b?


Of course. Do you want to die from that:
From Wiki:
"In adults, the disease is more severe, though the incidence is much less common. *Infection in adults is associated with greater morbidity and mortality due to pneumonia, hepatitis, and encephalitis.* In particular, up to 10% of pregnant women with chickenpox develop pneumonia, the severity of which increases with onset later in gestation. In England and Wales, *75% of deaths due to chickenpox are in adults. Inflammation of the brain, or encephalitis, can occur in immunocompromised individuals*, although the risk is higher with herpes zoster. "

*"In the thirty years ending in 1934, 3,112 people are stated to have died of "chicken-pox," and only 579 of smallpox in England and Wales."*

*Study Shows Deaths From Chickenpox Have Dropped 88% Since Vaccine Program Began in U.S.*
http://children.webmd.com/vaccines/n...due-to-vaccine
(I presume that the remaining 12% were anti-vaxers and those infected by them nearby)

*Chickenpox Deaths Plummet With Help Of Vaccine*
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2011...elp-of-vaccine

----------


## RonRules

This more recent study show an even better success rate:

http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2011/0...ickenpox-down/
Deaths from chickenpox (the varicella virus) have dropped 97 percent in adolescents and children since the use of the vaccine began in 1995, new analysis shows.

"Every kid did get chickenpox and, in the pre-vaccine era, there were 3-4 million cases a year," Seward said. "*What people may not have realized, every year, about 105 people died of chickenpox*. About half of those were children and about *11,000-12,000 were hospitalized with severe complications*. We started preventing the disease to really prevent those very serious complications."

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## EBounding

Here's a better non-insulting video:

----------


## KingNothing

> This more recent study show an even better success rate:
> 
> http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2011/0...ickenpox-down/
> Deaths from chickenpox (the varicella virus) have dropped 97 percent in adolescents and children since the use of the vaccine began in 1995, new analysis shows.
> 
> "Every kid did get chickenpox and, in the pre-vaccine era, there were 3-4 million cases a year," Seward said. "*What people may not have realized, every year, about 105 people died of chickenpox*. About half of those were children and about *11,000-12,000 were hospitalized with severe complications*. We started preventing the disease to really prevent those very serious complications."


Eh, what's 12,000 kids when you can wage a Crusade built on faulty science, half-truths, paranoia, and moral indignation?

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## Meatwasp

Oh Boy, Save us from the zealots who try to spread their banner over all of us.   RR loves to quote.

----------


## luctor-et-emergo

> NOT taking vaccines is a form of aggression against me and my children. I see no problem in making vaccines mandatory, just like it's mandatory that you don't throw out toilet water in the street.


So you favor collectivized safety instead of individual freedom ?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> So you favor collectivized safety instead of individual freedom ?


Yes, that's it in a nutshell.

Down that road lies the justification for *everything* government is doing right now, that we are all, I think, opposed to.

----------


## donnay

> Clearly Ron Paul does not understand herd immunity. That's pretty sad that a doctor of his age, having gone through the polio epidemic would not understand that.  He does say that the polio and smallpox vaccines has been "fantastic", but that's not enough. You need herd immunity because vaccines are not 100% effective and a small percentage of the population are allergic to vaccines. The rest have to take them.
> 
> *NOT taking vaccines is a form of aggression against me and my children. I see no problem in making vaccines mandatory, just like it's mandatory that you don't throw out toilet water in the street.*



If you have been vaccinated what are you worried about?  Wasn't that the whole reason for taking the vaccines in the first place?  Isn't it your body armor?

Quote of the day: "OK, you bring your needle and I'll bring my 45 and we'll see who makes the bigger hole" ~Michael Badnarik (Libertarian candidate for President in 2004)

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## RonRules

> If you have been vaccinated what are you worried about?  Wasn't that the whole reason for taking the vaccines in the first place?  Isn't it your body armor?


Again you still don't understand that vaccines are not 100% effective. If less than around 80% of the people are vaccinated, some of the vaccinated people can still get infected.

A very high percentage of vaccination is necessary to reduce the virus progression. It's not complicated.

What you advocate instead is reckless. Kids are dying every day because of this anti-vax nonsense.

----------


## donnay

> Again you still don't understand that vaccines are not 100% effective. If less than around 80% of the people are vaccinated, some of the vaccinated people can still get infected.
> 
> A very high percentage of vaccination is necessary to reduce the virus progression. It's not complicated.
> 
> What you advocate instead is reckless. Kids are dying every day because of this anti-vax nonsense.



And you still don't understand; all the toxins that are in vaccines.  And you still don't understand; they were caught red-handed putting cancer in their vaccines.  And you still don't understand; that most diseases in this country started to go down before vaccines were even introduced.  And what you still don't understand; that the studies are biased and most of the time, if you research it, you'll fine that Big Pharma has paid for these studies--which certainly isn't very independent, but a conflict of interest!  And what you still don't understand is; that you and no one else HAS THE RIGHT TO FORCE TOXINS ON ME AND MY FAMILY!!

If God wanted me to have a vaccine he would have NEVER given me an immune system!!

----------


## RonRules

> And you still don't understand; all the toxins that are in vaccines.


NO there is NOT. 

Whatever trace you can find in any vaccine is completely harmless. You have toxins in every food you eat, every liquid you drink.

People like you are extremely dangerous to society.

Vaccines save millions of lives. Anti-Vaxers need to be put in their place.

----------


## puppetmaster

> NO there is NOT. 
> 
> Whatever trace you can find in any vaccine is completely harmless. You have toxins in every food you eat, every liquid you drink.
> 
> People like you are extremely dangerous to society.
> 
> Vaccines save millions of lives. Anti-Vaxers need to be put in their place.



I think you should remove yourself from our society...then you will be safer.

----------


## donnay

> NO there is NOT. 
> 
> Whatever trace you can find in any vaccine is completely harmless. You have toxins in every food you eat, every liquid you drink.
> 
> People like you are extremely dangerous to society.
> 
> Vaccines save millions of lives. Anti-Vaxers need to be put in their place.


You are dangerous to Liberty and EVERYTHING is stands for!  As I asked another pro-vaxer about the fact there is formaldehyde (which I got no answer from) in vaccines.  Formaldehyde is poisonous at any amount especially when it is going right into your blood stream.  Usually it is pumped into dead corpses to preserve them.  So you are saying giving a new born baby (weighing-in at 5 to 10 lbs) whose little brain is not nearly developed small trace amounts of toxins and heavy metals that deposit in their brain?  From newborn to age 6 a child is inundated with 36 vaccines!!

If you think that is okay, you are reckless in your thinking!
*
INFORMED CHOICE - Vaccine Ingredients*
http://www.informedchoice.info/cocktail.html

----------


## Anti Federalist

> People like you are extremely dangerous to society.
> 
> Vaccines save millions of lives. Anti-Vaxers need to be put in their place.


Put in their place like this, right?

----------


## Zippyjuan

> And you still don't understand; all the toxins that are in vaccines.  And you still don't understand; they were caught red-handed putting cancer in their vaccines.  And you still don't understand; that most diseases in this country started to go down before vaccines were even introduced.  And what you still don't understand; that the studies are biased and most of the time, if you research it, you'll fine that Big Pharma has paid for these studies--which certainly isn't very independent, but a conflict of interest!  And what you still don't understand is; that you and no one else HAS THE RIGHT TO FORCE TOXINS ON ME AND MY FAMILY!!
> 
> If God wanted me to have a vaccine he would have NEVER given me an immune system!!


We have discussed the "cancer put in vaccines" thing before.  When the polio vaccine was being developed, a lot was unknown about vaccines.  In this case, cultures for the vaccine were grown from cells which included a type of cancer- but that was not known as there was no way to know it.  Your line 



> caught red-handed putting cancer in their vaccines.


is very misleading- it was not added nor there deliberately.  Once it was identified that it was in the vaccine, it was removed and tests for vaccines improved to be sure it did not happen again (this was 60 years ago and has not occured since and there has been no observed increases in cancer directly related to the incident). 

Yes, there are things in vaccines (again, I have gone through many of them) which in large amounts can be hazardous but the amounts in a vaccine are so incredibly small they are not of any significance (in some cases, your own body is producing them already in higher amounts- including formaldehyde you mention above- and in others even eating food or drinking water exposes you to significanty higher doses than all of the vaccines you ever get would contain).

http://certifiablygreenblog.com/?p=679



> *As a matter of fact, your own body is producing formaldehyde right now.* So are most other living organisms, including plants and animals. Formaldehyde is a naturally occurring byproduct of normal metabolic processes. It’s also found naturally in the air all around us.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> We have discussed the "cancer put in vaccines" thing before.


RR seems to think that people who do not wish to take a certain medication are a cancer on society, a dangerous and deviant abnormality that should be, well, I'm not really sure what he suggests should be done, outside of forcibly medicating them.

Are you in favor of sending men with guns to people's homes, strapping them down at gunpoint, and injecting unwanted medications into them?

----------


## RonRules

> Formaldehyde is poisonous at any amount especially when it is going right into your blood stream.


Formaldehyde is produced in your own body. How come you're not dying from it right now?

----------


## donnay

> We have discussed the "cancer put in vaccines" thing before.  When the polio vaccine was being developed, a lot was unknown about vaccines.  In this case, cultures for the vaccine were grown from cells which included a type of cancer- but that was not known as there was no way to know it.  Your line 
> 
> is very misleading- it was not added nor there deliberately.  Once it was identified that it was in the vaccine, it was removed and tests for vaccines improved to be sure it did not happen again (this was 60 years ago and has not occured since and there has been no observed increases in cancer directly related to the incident). 
> 
> Yes, there are things in vaccines (again, I have gone through many of them) which in large amounts can be hazardous but the amounts in a vaccine are so incredibly small they are not of any significance (in some cases, your own body is producing them already in higher amounts- including formaldehyde you mention above- and in others even eating food or drinking water exposes you to significanty higher doses than all of the vaccines you ever get would contain).



Zippy and I also pointed it out how they were caught.  They CONTINUED to use it, regardless of their findings!





You aha! moment is nothing.  Because again I submit to you that giving a newborn to six years of age 36 vaccines, whose brain is still not fully developed trace amounts of toxins and heavy metals bars criminal intent.

----------


## RonRules

> RR seems to think that people who do not wish to take a certain medication are a cancer on society, a dangerous and deviant abnormality that should be, well, I'm not really sure what he suggests should be done, outside of forcibly medicating them.
> 
> Are you in favor of sending men with guns to people's homes, strapping them down at gunpoint, and injecting unwanted medications into them?


If you don't want to take chemo when you get cancer, that's your problem. It does not affect me and others, except your own family.

If you don't want to immunize your children and mine get sick or die, then THAT's a problem.

Again, you're the aggressor when you don't immunize. 

Just like if you refuse to use the sanitation facilities. In this case you would also be the aggressor spreading bacteria.

It's not complicated if you use the non-aggression principle.

----------


## donnay

> Formaldehyde is produced in your own body. How come you're not dying from it right now?


Formaldehyde-- naturally occurring in the human body and helps with your metabolism.  Again they inundate an infant up to six years old with 35 vaccines.

Formaldehyde and Cancer Risk
Key Points

    Formaldehyde is a colorless, flammable, strong-smelling chemical that is used in building materials and to produce many household products.
    Formaldehyde sources in the home include pressed-wood products, cigarette smoke, and fuel-burning appliances.
    When exposed to formaldehyde, some individuals may experience various short-term effects.
    Formaldehyde has been classified as a known human carcinogen (cancer-causing substance) by the International Agency for Research on Cancer and as a probable human carcinogen by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.
    Research studies of workers exposed to formaldehyde have suggested an association between formaldehyde exposure and several cancers, including nasopharyngeal cancer and leukemia.

    What is formaldehyde?

    Formaldehyde is a colorless, flammable, strong-smelling chemical that is used in building materials and to produce many household products. It is used in pressed-wood products, such as particleboard, plywood, and fiberboard; glues and adhesives; permanent-press fabrics; paper product coatings; and certain insulation materials. In addition, formaldehyde is commonly used as an industrial fungicide, germicide, and disinfectant, and as a preservative in mortuaries and medical laboratories. Formaldehyde also occurs naturally in the environment. It is produced in small amounts by most living organisms as part of normal metabolic processes.

    How is the general population exposed to formaldehyde?

    According to a 1997 report by the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, formaldehyde is normally present in both indoor and outdoor air at low levels, usually less than 0.03 parts of formaldehyde per million parts of air (ppm). Materials containing formaldehyde can release formaldehyde gas or vapor into the air. One source of formaldehyde exposure in the air is automobile tailpipe emissions.

    During the 1970s, urea-formaldehyde foam insulation (UFFI) was used in many homes. However, few homes are now insulated with UFFI. Homes in which UFFI was installed many years ago are not likely to have high formaldehyde levels now. Pressed-wood products containing formaldehyde resins are often a significant source of formaldehyde in homes. Other potential indoor sources of formaldehyde include cigarette smoke and the use of unvented fuel-burning appliances, such as gas stoves, wood-burning stoves, and kerosene heaters.

    Industrial workers who produce formaldehyde or formaldehyde-containing products, laboratory technicians, certain health care professionals, and mortuary employees may be exposed to higher levels of formaldehyde than the general public. Exposure occurs primarily by inhaling formaldehyde gas or vapor from the air or by absorbing liquids containing formaldehyde through the skin.

    What are the short-term health effects of formaldehyde exposure?

    When formaldehyde is present in the air at levels exceeding 0.1 ppm, some individuals may experience adverse effects such as watery eyes; burning sensations in the eyes, nose, and throat; coughing; wheezing; nausea; and skin irritation. Some people are very sensitive to formaldehyde, whereas others have no reaction to the same level of exposure.

    Can formaldehyde cause cancer?

    Although the short-term health effects of formaldehyde exposure are well known, less is known about its potential long-term health effects. In 1980, laboratory studies showed that exposure to formaldehyde could cause nasal cancer in rats. This finding raised the question of whether formaldehyde exposure could also cause cancer in humans. In 1987, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) classified formaldehyde as a probable human carcinogen under conditions of unusually high or prolonged exposure (1). Since that time, some studies of humans have suggested that formaldehyde exposure is associated with certain types of cancer. The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) classifies formaldehyde as a human carcinogen (2). In 2011, the National Toxicology Program, an interagency program of the Department of Health and Human Services, named formaldehyde as a known human carcinogen in its 12th Report on Carcinogens (3).

    What have scientists learned about the relationship between formaldehyde and cancer?

    Since the 1980s, the National Cancer Institute (NCI), a component of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), has conducted studies to determine whether there is an association between occupational exposure to formaldehyde and an increase in the risk of cancer. The results of this research have provided EPA and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) with information to evaluate the potential health effects of workplace exposure to formaldehyde.

    The long-term effects of formaldehyde exposure have been evaluated in epidemiologic studies (studies that attempt to uncover the patterns and causes of disease in groups of people). One type of epidemiologic study is called a cohort study. A cohort is a group of people who may vary in their exposure to a particular factor, such as formaldehyde, and are followed over time to see whether they develop a disease. Another kind of epidemiologic study is called a case-control study. Case-control studies begin with people who are diagnosed as having a disease (cases) and compare them to people without the disease (controls), trying to identify differences in factors, such as exposure to formaldehyde, that might explain why the cases developed the disease but the controls did not.

    Several NCI surveys of professionals who are potentially exposed to formaldehyde in their work, such as anatomists and embalmers, have suggested that these individuals are at an increased risk of leukemia and brain cancer compared with the general population. However, specific work practices and exposures were not characterized in these studies. An NCI case-control study among funeral industry workers that characterized exposure to formaldehyde also found an association between increasing formaldehyde exposure and mortality from myeloid leukemia (4). For this study, carried out among funeral industry workers who had died between 1960 and 1986, researchers compared those who had died from hematopoietic and lymphatic cancers and brain tumors with those who died from other causes. (Hematopoietic or hematologic cancers such as leukemia develop in the blood or bone marrow. Lymphatic cancers develop in the tissues and organs that produce, store, and carry white blood cells that fight infections and other diseases.) This analysis showed that those who had performed the most embalming and those with the highest estimated formaldehyde exposure had the greatest risk of myeloid leukemia. There was no association with other cancers of the hematopoietic and lymphatic systems or with brain cancer.

    A number of cohort studies involving workers exposed to formaldehyde have recently been completed. One study, conducted by NCI, looked at 25,619 workers in industries with the potential for occupational formaldehyde exposure and estimated each worker’s exposure to the chemical while at work (5). The results showed an increased risk of death due to leukemia, particularly myeloid leukemia, among workers exposed to formaldehyde. This risk was associated with increasing peak and average levels of exposure, as well as with the duration of exposure, but it was not associated with cumulative exposure. An additional 10 years of data on the same workers were used in a follow-up study published in 2009 (6). This analysis continued to show a possible link between formaldehyde exposure and cancers of the hematopoietic and lymphatic systems, particularly myeloid leukemia. As in the initial study, the risk was highest earlier in the follow-up period. Risks declined steadily over time, such that the cumulative excess risk of myeloid leukemia was no longer statistically significant at the end of the follow-up period. The researchers noted that similar patterns of risks over time had been seen for other agents known to cause leukemia.

    A cohort study of 11,039 textile workers performed by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) also found an association between the duration of exposure to formaldehyde and leukemia deaths (7). However, the evidence remains mixed because a cohort study of 14,014 British industry workers found no association between formaldehyde exposure and leukemia deaths (8).

    Formaldehyde undergoes rapid chemical changes immediately after absorption. Therefore, some scientists think that formaldehyde is unlikely to have effects at sites other than the upper respiratory tract. However, some laboratory studies suggest that formaldehyde may affect the lymphatic and hematopoietic systems. Based on both the epidemiologic data from cohort and case-control studies and the experimental data from laboratory research, NCI investigators have concluded that exposure to formaldehyde may cause leukemia, particularly myeloid leukemia, in humans.

    In addition, several case-control studies, as well as analysis of the large NCI industrial cohort (6), have found an association between formaldehyde exposure and nasopharyngeal cancer, although some other studies have not. Data from extended follow-up of the NCI cohort found that the excess of nasopharyngeal cancer observed in the earlier report persisted (9).

    Earlier analysis of the NCI cohort found increased lung cancer deaths among industrial workers compared with the general U.S. population. However, the rate of lung cancer deaths did not increase with higher levels of formaldehyde exposure. This observation led the researchers to conclude that factors other than formaldehyde exposure might have caused the increased deaths. The most recent data on lung cancer from the cohort study did not find any relationship between formaldehyde exposure and lung cancer mortality.

    What has been done to protect workers from formaldehyde?

    In 1987, OSHA established a Federal standard that reduced the amount of formaldehyde to which workers can be exposed over an 8-hour workday from 3 ppm to 1 ppm. In May 1992, the standard was amended, and the formaldehyde exposure limit was further reduced to 0.75 ppm.

    How can people limit formaldehyde exposure in their homes?

    The EPA recommends the use of “exterior-grade” pressed-wood products to limit formaldehyde exposure in the home. These products emit less formaldehyde because they contain phenol resins, not urea resins. (Pressed-wood products include plywood, paneling, particleboard, and fiberboard and are not the same as pressure-treated wood products, which contain chemical preservatives and are intended for outdoor use.) Before purchasing pressed-wood products, including building materials, cabinetry, and furniture, buyers should ask about the formaldehyde content of these products. Formaldehyde levels in homes can also be reduced by ensuring adequate ventilation, moderate temperatures, and reduced humidity levels through the use of air conditioners and dehumidifiers.

    Where can people find more information about formaldehyde?

    The following organizations can provide additional resources that readers may find helpful:

    The EPA offers information about the use of formaldehyde in building materials and household products. The EPA can be contacted at:

    U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
    Office of Radiation and Indoor Air
    Indoor Environments Division
    Mail Code 6609J
    1200 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW.
    Washington, DC 20460
    202–554–1404 (EPA Toxic Substance Control Act (TCSA) Assistance Line)
http://www.epa.gov/iaq/formalde.html

    The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) has information about household products that contain formaldehyde. CPSC can be contacted at:

    U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
    4330 East West Highway
    Bethesda, MD 20814
    1–800–638–2772 (1–800–638–CPSC)
    301–595–7054 (TTY)
http://www.cpsc.gov

    The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) maintains information about cosmetics and drugs that contain formaldehyde. FDA can be contacted at:

    U.S. Food and Drug Administration
    10903 New Hampshire Avenue
    Silver Spring, MD 20993–0002
    1–888–463–6332 (1–888–INFO–FDA)
http://www.fda.gov

    The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) has information about formaldehyde exposure levels in mobile homes and trailers supplied by FEMA after Hurricane Katrina. FEMA can be contacted at:

    Federal Emergency Management Agency
    Post Office Box 10055
    Hyattsville, MD 20782–7055
    1–800–621–3362 (1–800–621–FEMA)
http://www.fema.gov

    The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) has information about occupational exposure limits for formaldehyde. OSHA can be contacted at:

    U.S. Department of Labor
    Occupational Safety and Health Administration
    200 Constitution Avenue
    Washington, DC 20210
    1–800–321–6742 (1–800–321–OSHA)
http://www.osha.gov

    The National Toxicology Program (NTP) is an interagency program of the Department of Health and Human Services that was created to coordinate toxicology testing programs within the federal government; to develop and validate improved testing methods; and to provide information about potentially toxic chemicals to health, regulatory, and research agencies, scientific and medical communities, and the public. NTP is headquartered at the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences, which is part of NIH. NTP can be contacted at:

    National Toxicology Program
    111 TW Alexander Drive
    Building 101
    Research Triangle Park, NC 27709
    919–541–0530
http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov

Selected References

    U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Office of Air and Radiation. Report to Congress on Indoor Air Quality, Volume II: Assessment and Control of Indoor Air Pollution, 1989.

    International Agency for Research on Cancer (June 2004). IARC Monographs on the Evaluation of Carcinogenic Risks to Humans Volume 88 (2006): Formaldehyde, 2-Butoxyethanol and 1-tert-Butoxypropan-2-ol. Retrieved June 10, 2011, from: http://monographs.iarc.fr/ENG/Monogr...ol88/index.php Exit Disclaimer.

    National Toxicology Program (June 2011). Report on Carcinogens, Twelfth Edition. Department of Health and Human Services, Public Health Service, National Toxicology Program. Retrieved June 10, 2011, from: http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/go/roc12.

    Hauptmann M, Stewart PA, Lubin JH, et al. Mortality from lymphohematopoietic malignancies and brain cancer among embalmers exposed to formaldehyde. Journal of the National Cancer Institute 2009; 101(24):1696–1708.
    [PubMed Abstract]

    Hauptmann M, Lubin JH, Stewart PA, Hayes RB, Blair A. Mortality from lymphohematopoietic malignancies among workers in formaldehyde industries. Journal of the National Cancer Institute 2003; 95(21):1615–1623.
    [PubMed Abstract]

    Beane Freeman L, Blair A, Lubin JH, et al. Mortality from lymphohematopoietic malignancies among workers in formaldehyde industries: The National Cancer Institute Cohort. Journal of the National Cancer Institute 2009; 101(10):751–761.
    [PubMed Abstract]

    Pinkerton LE, Hein MJ, Stayner LT. Mortality among a cohort of garment workers exposed to formaldehyde: An update. Occupational Environmental Medicine 2004; 61:193–200.
    [PubMed Abstract]

    Coggon D, Harris EC, Poole J, Palmer KT. Extended follow-up of a cohort of British chemical workers exposed to formaldehyde. Journal of the National Cancer Institute 2003; 95(21):1608–1615.
    [PubMed Abstract]

    Hauptmann M, Lubin JH, Stewart PA, Hayes RB, Blair A. Mortality from solid cancers among workers in formaldehyde industries. American Journal of Epidemiology 2004; 159(12):1117–1130.
    [PubMed Abstract]

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/f...k/formaldehyde

----------


## donnay

> If you don't want to take chemo when you get cancer, that's your problem. It does not affect me and others, except your own family.
> 
> If you don't want to immunize your children and mine get sick or die, then THAT's a problem.
> 
> Again, you're the aggressor when you don't immunize. 
> 
> Just like if you refuse to use the sanitation facilities. In this case you would also be the aggressor spreading bacteria.
> 
> It's not complicated if you use the non-aggression principle.



Forcing vaccines is aggressive.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Zippy and I also pointed it out how they were caught.  They CONTINUED to use it, regardless of their findings!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You aha! moment is nothing.  Because again I submit to you that giving a newborn to six years of age 36 vaccines, whose brain is still not fully developed trace amounts of toxins and heavy metals bars criminal intent.


The video only covers part of the interview (conviently). Yes, they did find the cancer cell in the vaccines and once it was identifyable and identified (back in the early 1960's) it was removed. It was not put there mailciously and has not been found in any vaccines since.   

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/upd..._factsheet.htm



> *Cancer, Simian Virus 40 (SV40), and Polio Vaccine Fact Sheet*
> SV40 is a virus found in some species of monkey. 
> 
> 
> SV40 was discovered in 1960. Soon afterward, the virus was found in polio vaccine. 
> 
> 
> More than 98 million Americans received one or more doses of polio vaccine from 1955 to 1963 when a proportion of vaccine was contaminated with SV40; it has been estimated that 10–30 million Americans could have received an SV40 contaminated dose of vaccine. 
> 
> ...

----------


## donnay

> The video only covers part of the interview (conviently). Yes, they did find the cancer cell in the vaccines and once it was identifyable and identified (back in the early 1960's) it was removed. It was not put there mailciously and has not been found in any vaccines since.   
> 
> http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/upd..._factsheet.htm


http://www.vaccinetruth.org/sv40.htm
thinktwice.com/Polio.pdf
www.whale.to/vaccine/Man239_251.doc
http://rense.com/general54/Cancer-causing_vaccinesR.htm
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...effective.aspx
http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/vaccines.htm
http://pakpolio.wordpress.com/2010/0...-brain-cancer/

----------


## Zippyjuan

Nothing in your links disproves or disputes what my link said. 
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...effective.aspx



> You might be like me and be an American who received polio shots *in the 1950's and 60's.* I have not been, but many have ended up being informed—40 years later—that many of those experimental polio shots were contaminated with a monkey virus, simian virus 40 (SV40), .


The Whale article also notes no cases of simian cancer virus contaminated vaccine after 1963. 

 This one is misleading: http://pakpolio.wordpress.com/2010/0...-brain-cancer/



> Are you aware that the Oral Polio Vaccine (OPV) administered from 1962 – 1999 contained a monkey virus that could cause cancer?


The vaccine was given those years but it did not contain the virus after 1963 (it doesn't say it did- it just leaves that part off- reduces the "scary effect" but it implies that it was in the vaccine the whole time which it wasn't).

Nice "fear factor" pictures they have to go along with it:


Designed to play on emotions while selectively presenting facts.

The Rense Article:
http://rense.com/general54/Cancer-causing_vaccinesR.htm



> *In the early 1960's it was discovered* that some lots of polio vaccines manufactured on rhesus monkey kidney tissue *during the period 1955 to 1963* were contaminated with a monkey virus called SV40 (Simian[monkey] virus #40). This primate virus was quickly proven to cause various cancers in experimental animals. However, to this day, U.S. government officials still insist there is no absolute proof that SV40 causes human cancer.


This confirms that while it was in the vaccine in the late 1950's, its presence was not known until the 1960's and that it was removed by 1963.

----------


## RonRules

Vaccination makes children smile!

----------


## Kotin

> Vaccination makes children smile!


You make a superb propagandist.. If i were you I'd Try to get on the CDC's or AMA's payroll...

----------


## Anti Federalist

> If you don't want to take chemo when you get cancer, that's your problem. It does not affect me and others, except your own family.
> 
> If you don't want to immunize your children and mine get sick or die, then THAT's a problem.
> 
> Again, you're the aggressor when you don't immunize. 
> 
> Just like if you refuse to use the sanitation facilities. In this case you would also be the aggressor spreading bacteria.
> 
> It's not complicated if you use the non-aggression principle.


So, you will send your proxy soldiers to my home, drag my children out, strap them down and forcibly medicate them at gunpoint.

Gotcha.

----------


## DGambler

> So, you will send your proxy soldiers to my home, drag my children out, strap them down and forcibly medicate them at gunpoint.
> 
> Gotcha.


That's what I got out of his post as well.  One question, he states "if you refuse to use the sanitation facilities"... what's a sanitation facility?  If I refuse to wash my hands after going poop, I should be arrested?

----------


## RonRules

> So, you will send your proxy soldiers to my home, drag my children out, strap them down and forcibly medicate them at gunpoint.





> That's what I got out of his post as well.  One question, he states "if you refuse to use the sanitation facilities"... what's a sanitation facility?  If I refuse to wash my hands after going poop, I should be arrested?


Let's just say you live in this neighborhood:



A new neighbor moves in the first house in the picture, but he's got an extremely disgusting habit. His whole family likes to $#@! in buckets and dumps it on his front yard. It's his property, he owns the house and the land.

How long will YOU tolerate that. How long will it take code enforcement and the sanitation dept to take action? Will you oppose code enforcement's actions?

This neighbor is infecting the entire neighborhood with toxic bacteria. Are you going to just sit there and enjoy the smell and your puking kids?

I guarantee you, in Riverside and in every community I know in America, if these people want to continue doing that, they will be taken out at gun point. Code enforcement in Riverside has guns.

I see the vaccine problem exactly the same way. You're spraying viruses and bacteria that harms others throughout society.In many cases these viruses kill. 

If you don't want to vaccinate your children, the least local gov. must do is to prevent your kids from attending public schools and use playgrounds. Religious excuses would not be tolerated either.

----------


## luctor-et-emergo

> Vaccination makes children smile!



Just to make the point that smiling kids does not mean good outcomes.

PS I'm not against vaccinations, don't force me to use them.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> A new neighbor move in the first house in the picture, but he's got an extremely disgusting habit. His whole family likes to $#@! in buckets and dumps it on his front yard. It's his property, he owns the house and the land.
> 
> How long will YOU tolerate that. How long will it take code enforcement and the sanitation dept to take action? Will you oppose code enforcement's actions?
> 
> This neighbor is infecting the entire neighborhood with toxic bacteria. Are you going to just sit there and enjoy the smell and your puking kids?
> 
> I guarantee you, in Riverside and in every community I know in America, if these people want to continue doing that, they will be taken out at gun point. Code enforcement in Riverside has guns.
> 
> I see the vaccine problem exactly the same way. You're spraying viruses and bacteria that harms others throughout society.In many cases these viruses kill. 
> ...


Yes, I understand, you made your point.

Zero Tolerance, men with guns and forced medications.

Gotcha, loud and clear.

Congratulations, you have now just made the case for every single intrusion into people's private lives based on "public safety" or "common good".

----------


## Kotin

> Yes, I understand, you made your point.
> 
> Zero Tolerance, men with guns and forced medications.
> 
> Gotcha, loud and clear.
> 
> Congratulations, you have now just made the case for every single intrusion into people's private lives based on "public safety" or "common good".


BINGO!

----------


## DGambler

So, according to herd immunity, the idea is based on the idea that if 80% of a population is successfully immunized against a disease, then the rest of the population is protected against an epidemic.  Likewise, *immunization rates below this level endanger us all.*

What about the baby boomers?  As children, they were immunized against smallpox, diphtheria, pertussis, and a few others of the potentially epidemic diseases.  Therefore, the vaccine proponents imply that we have been free of epidemics of these diseases because of “herd immunity,” that is, that 80% of the population (most of who are in the baby boomer generation) remains immune.

How long does immunity last1?  




> *Measles*
> According to the WHO, up to 15% of children fail to develop immunity to the first dose, which is why a booster dose is recommended.  Most babies receive their first dose around 1 year; the second is given usually before kindergarten.  “Protection” is supposed to last up to 11 years.  This means that assuming a child actually gains immunity (some will not even after 2 doses), it will have worn off completely by 16 years of age.  The vast majority of adults in this country are not protected.
> 
> *Polio*
> 95% of people who get polio, though, show absolutely no symptoms; only 1 – 2% ever develop paralytic polio (and less than 1% of these are permanently affected).  A single dose of the vaccine provides almost no immunity, which is why 4 are recommended; 99% of people should be “protected” after 3 doses.  Length of protection is unknown, but thought to be “many years.”  (This is really untestable since there are no wild cases in the U.S.)
> 
> *Rubella*
> About 95% of people who are vaccinated are “protected.”  Another source says that only 75% of people are “protected” and that this protection wanes after 3 – 5 years.  This means that babies and children who are vaccinated are likely not protected in adulthood.
> 
> ...


So, what are the vaccination rates of adults?
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6104a2.htm
From that link, it looks to be less than 80% of the diseases listed.

I'm still looking for a MMR "booster" rate in adults.

So, if the lack of boosters drives the herd immunity below the 80% threshold, then why aren't these diseases ravaging the country?

1 http://www.modernalternativemama.com...nity-last.html, links to information at page, I've edited the quote above

----------


## Eagles' Wings

What's the point of continuing this discussion.  RR just revealed his bottom line.   Unbelievable on this forum.

----------


## RonRules

> What's the point of continuing this discussion.  RR just revealed his bottom line.   Unbelievable on this forum.


What's unbelievable is the near total lack of basic scientific knowledge in this forum. (except for the occasional pro-vaccine poster)

----------


## RonRules

> So, according to herd immunity, the idea is based on the idea that if 80% of a population is successfully immunized against a disease,


80% was just given as an example. See your doctor or speak to a researcher for an accurate number for a specific disease and for your geographical area.

The minimum herd number depends on a lot of factors, such as the inoculation period, transmission effectiveness and rate, mutation rate, urban density, etc, etc.

Let the experts do their job.

----------


## donnay

> What's unbelievable is the near total lack of basic scientific knowledge in this forum. (except for the occasional pro-vaccine poster)



What's unbelievable your total disregard for liberty and our unalienable rights.  You really are proof, to me, what poison do to the brain.

Genocide is defined in Webster's as "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group."

VIDEO: Vaccines Didn't Cure Polio After All?
Thursday, March 08, 2012 – by *Staff Report
*

Smoke, Mirrors, and the "Disappearance" Of Polio ... Unbeknownst to most doctors, the polio-vaccine history involves a massive public health service makeover during an era when a live, deadly strain of poliovirus infected the Salk polio vaccines, and paralyzed hundreds of children and their contacts. These were the vaccines that were supposedly responsible for the decline in polio from 1955 to 1961! But there is a more sinister reason for the "decline" in polio during those years; in 1955, a very creative re-definition of poliovirus infections was invented, to "cover" the fact that many cases of "polio" paralysis had no poliovirus in their systems at all. While this protected the reputation of the Salk vaccine, it muddied the waters of history in a big way. Even during the peak epidemics, unifactorial poliovirus infection, resulting in long-term paralysis, was a low-incidence disease that was falsely represented as a rampant and violent crippler by Basil O'Connor's "March Of Dimes" advertising campaigns.  – Vaccination Council.GreenMedInfo.com

Dominant Social Theme: Vaccines are the best invention ever.

Free-Market Analysis: This is a great article (excerpted above) about vaccines because it gets at issues that have always puzzled us. The main one is the claim the "naturopathy" community makes that vaccines did NOT (and do not) cause a downturn in various kinds of illnesses.

The video we've attached, which pertains to vaccines and autism (we've written about this a lot) is very interesting, too. There is no doubt that as the Internet (what we call the "Internet Reformation") reveals more about what has really gone on to promote vaccines, people will get more and more skeptical – not just of vaccines as they relate to autism but about the medical industry itself.

The Western medical industry is increasingly being revealed as a conduit for pharmaceutical drugs and vaccines. In the meantime, homeopathy, acupuncture and naturopathy are making big comebacks. The idea that one can treat a disease by disguising or attacking the symptoms is increasingly questionable, in our humble view.

Surely, as this very public debate winds on it becomes clear that the vaccine-cures-all meme is an evident and obvious dominant social theme. We're used to discovering this sort of thing by now. Whenever we push hard at our belief system we discover another area where it seems promotions overwhelm science.

The power elite that evidently and obviously runs the world uses a number of fear-based promotions to frighten middle classes into giving up wealth and power to supra-national organizations. Vaccines are a great methodology for reinforcing the idea of authoritarian health care.

The idea is that only government science and government power can provide people with appropriate health care. But this is simply not true. Some vaccines, in fact, may be tolerable or perhaps necessary, but it is increasingly obvious that many of them have serious side effects for a percentage of the juvenile population. Here's some more from the article:

Unbeknownst to most doctors, the polio-vaccine history involves a massive public health service makeover during an era when a live, deadly strain of poliovirus infected the Salk polio vaccines, and paralyzed hundreds of children and their contacts. These were the vaccines that were supposedly responsible for the decline in polio from 1955 to 1961! But there is a more sinister reason for the "decline" in polio during those years; in 1955, a very creative re-definition of poliovirus infections was invented, to "cover" the fact that many cases of "polio" paralysis had no poliovirus in their systems at all. While this protected the reputation of the Salk vaccine, it muddied the waters of history in a big way.

Even during the peak epidemics, unifactorial poliovirus infection, resulting in long-term paralysis, was a low-incidence disease[2] that was falsely represented as a rampant and violent crippler by Basil O'Connor's "March Of Dimes" advertising campaigns. At the same time as Basil O'Connor was pulling in 45 million dollars a year to fund the Salk vaccine development, scientists started to realize that other viruses like Coxsackie, echo and enteroviruses, could also cause polio. They also discussed the fact that lead, arsenic, DDT, and other commonly-used neurotoxins, could identically mimic the lesions of polio. During the great epidemics in the United States, the pathology called polio was reversed by alternative medical doctors who attested to great success, using detoxification procedures available at the time – yet they were categorically ignored[3]. Now it is admitted in the medical literature that other viruses can cause polio, yet few people on the street have any idea.

Here's the video. Enjoy (if you can).

"The greatest lie ever told is that vaccines are safe and effective"  ~Dr. Len Horowitz 








Educate before you vaccinate!

----------


## RonRules

> What's unbelievable your total disregard for liberty and our unalienable rights.


It is my right to be safe from the aggression of others, be it by bullets or bacteria. 

That's what you need to understand.

----------


## Kotin

> It is my right to be safe from the aggression of others, be it by bullets or bacteria. 
> 
> That's what you need to understand.



lol you have a seriously twisted view concerning what constitutes aggression.. and you have no medical knowledge whatsoever.

----------


## donnay

> It is my right to be safe from the aggression of others, be it by bullets or bacteria. 
> 
> That's what you need to understand.



Oh I understand all too well.  The saddest thing is you do not understand that you are being played like a fiddle by eugenicists.  What is your proof that you are not a science experiment?

Those who do not study history are DOOMED to repeat it.

----------


## RonRules

> Oh I understand all too well.  The saddest thing is you do not understand that you are being played like a fiddle by eugenicists.


Oh I understand all too well.  The saddest thing is you do not understand that you are being played like a fiddle by Darwinists.

----------


## Dr.3D

> Oh I understand all too well.  The saddest thing is you do not understand that you are being played like a fiddle by Darwinists.


Well good, now just stand back and see how long it takes to prove Darwin was right.

----------


## donnay

> Oh I understand all too well.  The saddest thing is you do not understand that you are being played like a fiddle by Darwinists.



You keep telling yourself that when you line up for your toxic vaccines because the scientists paid by Big Pharma said they were safe--Darwinism’s connection with eugenics, abortion and racism is a matter of historical record.  I'll keep you in my prayers hoping your will seek the truth, rather believe the lies they have repeated over and over again.

----------


## RonRules

> I'll keep you in my prayers


Do you want my real name so the prayers work better?

----------


## Dr.3D

> Do you want my real name so the prayers work better?


God knows who you are.

----------


## donnay

> Do you want my real name so the prayers work better?


No that is never necessary, God knows whom I speak of.

----------


## UWDude

> I prefer nice teeth!


so, everybody in Japan, Austria, Belgium, the Czech republic, Croatia, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Netherlands, Norway, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland has messed up teeth because they don't flouridate their water?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoridation_by_country

PWNED!

In case you just missed your little whipping:
We are told that flouridation fights tooth decay, yet the countries I mentioned do no have flouridation, therefore, they should have mass tooth decay, yet there is zero evidence they do.

Does that hurt RonRules?  They are called facts, and they only sting when they nail your stupid pre-concieved conditionings to the floor and poop on them.  

BTW, RonRules, Swine Flu had far less immunizations than required for herd immunity, yet it passed without a bump in the statistical historical manual of influenza deaths.  What happened?  When are you little chicken-littles going to apologize for your hysterical outbursts of biological armageddon?

----------


## Dr.3D

> so, everybody in Japan, Austria, Belgium, the Czech republic, Croatia, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Netherlands, Norway, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland has messed up teeth because they don't flouridate their water?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoridation_by_country
> 
> PWNED!


Yeah, brushing them has been known to work wonders.

----------


## UWDude

> BTW, RonRules, Swine Flu had far less immunizations than required for herd immunity, yet it passed without a bump in the statistical historical manual of influenza deaths.  What happened?  When are you little chicken-littles going to apologize for your hysterical outbursts of biological armageddon?


They always run away from this and never answer.  They are hoping we forget them crying "emergency! Emergency!" over the swine flu, (or "H1N1" to make themselves sound educated and scientific, as if they have any real knowledge on the subject)  It was only 4 or 5 years ago, though... ...so sorry, RonRules, I still remember how utterly, ridiculously, and stupid you vax-for-everythign idiots ended up looking.

----------


## UWDude

> If you don't want to take chemo when you get cancer, that's your problem. It does not affect me and others, except your own family.


Actually, most drugs, including chemotherapy, are becoming a concern to scientists:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...ap-water_N.htm

Because they get into our water supply, and there are no long-term studies to determine the effects of all these drugs combined.
Guess it's time we get our own gestapo and start forcing people to stop taking drugs.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> It is my right to be safe from the aggression of others, be it by bullets or bacteria. 
> 
> That's what you need to understand.


So, you have the right to shoot me if I sneeze on you?

----------


## UWDude

RonRules is one of those idiots, running around with Lysol, spraying his can every time he pisses.  All that $#@! is making the superbugs that will really start culling the human population.  I bet he flips out every time he is in a public restroom and someone walks out the door without washing their hands after pissing.

I never wash my hands after pissing RonRules.  I don't wash them after masturbating either... ...and I go to california sometimes, I have family down there.  Who knows, you may be touching doorknobs of people who don't wash after pissing!  (as a matter of fact, I am sure every door knob you touch in public has been touched by hundreds of people who don't wash after pissing)

So take your hypochondriac control freak ass, and sit on that one for a while.  

LoL

OH NOES!  TEH SICKNESS WILL KILLZ US ALLZ!!!

----------


## Anti Federalist

> 80% was just given as an example. See your doctor or speak to a researcher for an accurate number for a specific disease and for your geographical area.
> 
> The minimum herd number depends on a lot of factors, such as the inoculation period, transmission effectiveness and rate, mutation rate, urban density, etc, etc.


Then what is the point of getting vaccinated for travel into third world areas where large portions of the population are *not* vaccinated?

You folks are telling me your wonder drugs are worthless, unless some, fairly large but as yet unknown percentage of the population, is also vaccinated.




> Let the experts do their job.


Oh Jesus, where have I heard *that* before?

Ben Bernake is an "expert".

So was Dr. Mengele.

----------


## UWDude

> Of course. Do you want to die from that:
> From Wiki:
> "In adults, the disease is more severe, though the incidence is much less common. *Infection in adults is associated with greater morbidity and mortality due to pneumonia, hepatitis, and encephalitis.* In particular, up to 10% of pregnant women with chickenpox develop pneumonia, the severity of which increases with onset later in gestation. In England and Wales, *75% of deaths due to chickenpox are in adults. Inflammation of the brain, or encephalitis, can occur in immunocompromised individuals*, although the risk is higher with herpes zoster. "
> 
> *"In the thirty years ending in 1934, 3,112 people are stated to have died of "chicken-pox," and only 579 of smallpox in England and Wales."*
> 
> *Study Shows Deaths From Chickenpox Have Dropped 88% Since Vaccine Program Began in U.S.*
> http://children.webmd.com/vaccines/n...due-to-vaccine
> (I presume that the remaining 12% were anti-vaxers and those infected by them nearby)
> ...


pfft... 100 deaths a year.

Somewhere around 150 to 200 people die in the U.S. each year because of food allergies.
http://health.howstuffworks.com/dise...-allergies.htm

BAN PEANUTS!! BAN PEANUTS!!!  CAN YOU BELIEVE PLANTERS INC!??  How can they not care for 150 - 200 people's lives a year?


    Around 100 people die annually as a result of being struck by lightning
    About 7,000 people die annually resulting from prescription drug filling errors
    90 to 100 people die each year from bee or wasp stings
    Around 200 people die each year in floods

Chicken pox ain't $#@!, and everyone knows it, except Mr. "I define Science" RonRules.






> "In the thirty years ending in 1934, 3,112 people are stated to have died of "chicken-pox," and only 579 of smallpox in England and Wales."


Why did you bold this?  it was 80 years ago, and a period from 100 to 80 years ago, yet you bolded it like you made some big point.

----------


## Dr.3D

Seems like somebody has a Howard Hughes type, germ phobia.

----------


## RonRules

> So, you have the right to shoot me if I sneeze on you?


Suppose you have tuberculosis and you are well aware of the fact. You decide to go around willfully infecting others by sneezing on them, I guarantee you a judge will put you away for a few years.

These New York lawyers will sue for a case of willful STD transmission:
Oshman & Mirisola, LLP 42 Broadway 10th Floor New York, NY10004 Call us at (800) 400-8182 
http://www.oshmanlaw.com/personal_in...eases-std.html

I'm sure they'd be happy to sue your ass with good video evidence of willful tuberculosis transmission.

----------


## RonRules

Oh and I don't have germophobia at all. I like a strong immune system that I boost with a yearly flu shot.

----------


## UWDude

Note how RonRules has twice ignored my demand for an apology from the tards like him that pronounced global catastrophe from H1N1 if there was not herd immunity from swine flu.  I am sure he has a perfectly scientific explanation why he and his chicken little friends were so hilariously humiliated by reality.




> I like a strong immune system that I boost with a yearly flu shot.


LoL

I've never got a flu shot... or the flu.  How about you?

----------


## RonRules

From Wiki:
People who do so willfully transmit STD can be charged with criminal transmission of HIV, murder, manslaughter, attempted murder, or assault. Some states have enacted laws expressly to criminalize HIV transmission (or HIV exposure), as in the United States, while others charge under the existing laws, as in the United Kingdom.

I think *willful transmission of viruses, which I define as refusal to be vaccinated*, should be subject to the same charges and sanctions.

----------


## UWDude

Wow... see that?  See the magical dodging he does?  See how he tries to cloud their failure by quoting wikipedia and articles talking about chicken pox?  
That's what a false man of science does when reality doesn't agree with his predictions....  ...he just changes the subject.

Guarantee it.  Go anywhere ont eh internet where these frothing forced-vaxers are warning of global catastrophe if everyone does not do as they say, and ask them why H1N1 ended up embarrassing their entire doom and gloom predictions of warning, and you will not get a reply.  They just want to forget the entire hype machine... ...and want to forget all their bold assertions of the first horse of the apocalypse coming with swine flu in his pocket.

There was nowhere near their proclaimed goal of herd immunity, yet the big bad swine flu came and left, leaving hardly a trace.




> I think willful transmission of viruses, which I define as refusal to be vaccinated, should be subject to the same charges and sanctions.


and you thought hundreds of thousands would die from swine flu.  That's because you don't think, you just regurgitate what you are told in a vain effort to sound intelligent.

----------


## RonRules

> bla bla bla ... swine flu.


CDC estimates that *between 43 million and 89 million cases* of 2009 H1N1 occurred between April 2009 and April 10, 2010. The mid-level in this range is about 61 million people infected with 2009 H1N1.

CDC estimates that between about *195,000 and 403,000 H1N1-related hospitalizations* occurred between April 2009 and April 10, 2010. The mid-level in this range is about 274,000 2009 H1N1-related hospitalizations.

CDC estimates that between about *8,870 and 18,300 2009 H1N1-related deaths* occurred between April 2009 and April 10, 2010. The mid-level in this range is about 12,470 2009 H1N1-related deaths.

----------


## UWDude

And how many deaths were you and your stooges claiming swine flu would cause if there was not herd immunity?

I also like how it obviously took you hours to find your answer to regurgitate, oh scientific one.

----------


## RonRules

> pfft... 100 deaths a year.


You think that 105 children smallpox deaths per year, avoidable by a smallpox virus shot, is acceptable?!!

Do you have any kids?

----------


## RonRules

BTW, while I'm amusing myself with you scientific illiterates, I'm working on a huge math spreadsheet that will change the world.

----------


## UWDude

> You think that 105 children smallpox deaths per year, avoidable by a smallpox virus shot, is acceptable?!!
> 
> Do you have any kids?


Chicken pox, tardo.  Read your own $#@! before trying to jump on a high horse about it.   




> BTW, while I'm amusing myself with you scientific illiterates, I'm working on a huge math spreadsheet that will change the world.


uh-huh.  Delusions of grandeur I see.  You are the great dictator, forcing vaccines upon the uneducated masses, working out his spreadsheet to change the world.

This is funny too, as you smart-ass gets handed to you, you suddenly start trying to impress us instead with your excel-fu? 

LoL

You are pathetic.

----------


## Dr.3D

> BTW, while I'm amusing myself with you scientific illiterates, I'm working on a huge math spreadsheet that will change the world.


I spent four years in med school and have more than 2000 credit hours, most of them in the sciences.   Just how many credits do you have in the sciences?

----------


## UWDude

> And how many deaths were you and your stooges claiming swine flu would cause if there was not herd immunity?


I found the answer for you, change-the-world-with-excel master...

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...-anne-schuchat

_Hundreds of thousands of Americans could die of swine flu over the next two years if the vaccine for the H1N1 influenza is not effective, and at the pandemic's peak as much as 40 percent of the work force could be affected, according to new estimates from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention._

HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS!! OMG!!  HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS!!   
So please explain, herd immunity was not reached by an order of 33%, yet, the "experts" estimates were 100 times or more overblown.  Please explain why we should trust these experts, and take jabs fro every little tiny sniffle-bug that they can make a vaccine for?  Especially. especially, if we have perfectly good immune systems, and are not like the weak, who likely would have caught something and died anyways.

And please don't try to guilt me.  Old people, and people with immune deficiencies must die sooner or later.  If it isn't swine flu, it will be the next sniffle.  That's just the way it is.  Immune diseases kill.  That's the harsh truth.  One day I will be old, and susceptible to disease, and you will nto find me demanding everyone get vaccinated for every single sickness imaginable for my sake....

...especially considering how this does indeed foster super-bugs, yet another SCIENTIFIC FACT ignored by the likes of RonRules and his fascist needle brigade.

----------


## RonRules

> I spent four years in med school and have more than 2000 credit hours, most of them in the sciences.   Just how many credits do you have in the sciences?


What happened? Did you flunk? Why aren't you a doctor?

----------


## Dr.3D

> What happened? Did you flunk? Why aren't you a doctor?


Ran out of money.  And I am a doctor, just not a physician.

----------


## RonRules

> What happened? Did you flunk? Why aren't you a doctor?


BTW, you clearly don't know what credit hours are. There's NO WAY you'd have 2000 credit hours. With the quarterly system, that would be 20,000 in-class hours.

How old are you?!

----------


## RonRules

> Ran out of money.  And I am a doctor, just not a physician.


Of homeopathy?

----------


## Dr.3D

> Of homeopathy?


Nope... PhD.

----------


## Dr.3D

> BTW, you clearly don't know what credit hours are. There's NO WAY you'd have 2000 credit hours. With the quarterly system, that would be 20,000 in-class hours.
> 
> How old are you?!


Let's just say I'm past my 60s.

Edit:
And it's not impossible to get that many credit hours.   Just work for a company that will pay for you to go to school and do that on and off for more than twenty years and the credits add up, especially when you are allowed to carry a full load while in school.

----------


## donnay

> Suppose you have tuberculosis and you are well aware of the fact. You decide to go around willfully infecting others by sneezing on them, I guarantee you a judge will put you away for a few years.
> 
> These New York lawyers will sue for a case of willful STD transmission:
> Oshman & Mirisola, LLP 42 Broadway 10th Floor New York, NY10004 Call us at (800) 400-8182 
> http://www.oshmanlaw.com/personal_in...eases-std.html
> 
> I'm sure they'd be happy to sue your ass with good video evidence of willful tuberculosis transmission.


Then you better not get around anyone who has Rheumatoid Arthritis.  Did you know that some Rheumatoid Arthritis medications give you TB?

*
Tuberculosis Linked to Arthritis Drugs*

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Suppose you have tuberculosis and you are well aware of the fact. You decide to go around willfully infecting others by sneezing on them, I guarantee you a judge will put you away for a few years.
> 
> These New York lawyers will sue for a case of willful STD transmission:
> Oshman & Mirisola, LLP 42 Broadway 10th Floor New York, NY10004 Call us at (800) 400-8182 
> http://www.oshmanlaw.com/personal_in...eases-std.html
> 
> I'm sure they'd be happy to sue your ass with good video evidence of willful tuberculosis transmission.


So you equate a healthy person making a decision not to take a particular medication, a medication that, according to the people that *demand* you take it, is supposed to protect you, with a known sick person deliberately spreading disease?

Wow.

Just, wow...

----------


## donnay

> CDC estimates that *between 43 million and 89 million cases* of 2009 H1N1 occurred between April 2009 and April 10, 2010. The mid-level in this range is about 61 million people infected with 2009 H1N1.
> 
> CDC estimates that between about *195,000 and 403,000 H1N1-related hospitalizations* occurred between April 2009 and April 10, 2010. The mid-level in this range is about 274,000 2009 H1N1-related hospitalizations.
> 
> CDC estimates that between about *8,870 and 18,300 2009 H1N1-related deaths* occurred between April 2009 and April 10, 2010. The mid-level in this range is about 12,470 2009 H1N1-related deaths.


*CDC caught in blatant lies about pandemics and vaccines* 

*Swine Flu is a HOAX! It is a U.S. Government Psychological Operation (Psy/Op) to TERRIFY the Public!*
*
CDC's revised swine flu death estimates a fairy tale scare story*





*FDA caught spying on its own scientists to muzzle whistle-blowers*

----------


## RonRules

> So you equate a healthy person making a decision not to take a particular medication, a medication that, according to the people that *demand* you take it, is supposed to protect you, with a known sick person deliberately spreading disease?


If you don't want to take a tetanus shot that's your problem and it does not affect me or my children. But be aware that you may end up looking like this with tetanus infection:



One the other hand, if you refuse vaccination for a highly contagious disease and deadly like smallpox, then I think there should be criminal and/or civil penalties.

----------


## Dr.3D

> If you don't want to take a tetanus shot that's your problem and it does not affect me or my children. But be aware that you may end up looking like this with tetanus infection:
> 
> 
> 
> One the other hand, if you refuse vaccination for a highly contagious disease and deadly like smallpox, then I think there should be criminal and/or civil penalties.


I remember a kid way back in my grade school days.  He was playing in the creek and got what we called Lock Jaw.  He couldn't open his mouth and they had to knock out some teeth to feed him.  He didn't live very long after that.  I believe Lock Jaw is another name for tetanus and that's what we called it back then.

----------


## donnay

> If you don't want to take a tetanus shot that's your problem and it does not affect me or my children. But be aware that you may end up looking like this with tetanus infection:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One the other hand, if you refuse vaccination for a highly contagious disease and deadly like smallpox, then I think there should be criminal and/or civil penalties.



And how can we be so sure the highly contagious disease isn't in that vaccine to cause a pandemic?  What are the guarantees?

----------


## donnay

> I remember a kid way back in my grade school days.  He was playing in the creek and got what we called Lock Jaw.  He couldn't open his mouth and they had to knock out some teeth to feed him.  He didn't live very long after that.  I believe Lock Jaw is another name for tetanus and that's what we called it back then.



I had been taught that during the second world war, no soldiers had suffered from tetanus because they were fully vaccinated. Later, I met doctors who had cared for soldiers during the war, who told me a completely different story. Fully vaccinated soldiers had indeed, got tetanus, but they were told not to report it. In other words, what I was taught and what was true were two different things. MY BRUSH WITH TETANUS Dr Archie Kalokerinos

"How can the Tetanus vaccine induce immunity, when contracting the disease naturally does not give immunity?"--NVIC

"A tetanus vaccination cannot possibly protect from the disease since the human organism cannot build up any immunity after contracting the disease (as is the same after HIB, diphtheria or TB). So, if nature hasn’t planned the immunity, how does the vaccine work?  Furthermore, the tetanus vaccination (as is the case with the diphtheria vaccine) is a so-called toxoid vaccine. The killed poison of the tetanus bacilli is injected into the body and meant to protect us. But the human body cannot build up immunity against poisons31. How can the vaccine protect us then? The official statistics of the various countries show us that the vaccine does not protect us. The Robert Koch Institute in Germany admits that 2/3 people who contract tetanus have been fully vaccinated32. The rate in Switzerland was 50% fully vaccinated and still contracted the disease."---Anita Petek-Dimmer

Heck, there are only something like 5 cases of tetanus per year in the entire U.S., and the major risk factors are IV drug use, major burns, and stasis ulcers in the elderly. I only saw 2 cases in my very intensive medical training, both major (>50% whole body) burns. Most docs have never seen it. Tetanus/Vaccines/more From Will Taylor, Homeopath

Did you know there is NO diagnostic test for tetanus?  So how do we know a person actually has tetanus.  Symptoms of tetanus are similar to symptoms of some other toxic poisonings.  We have no test to prove the person has tetanus.  And good wound care is far and away your best treatment for dirty injuries.  And the risk for tetanus is not the same in every area of the country.  And tetanus vaccine is one vaccine that I get many many emails on from people telling me of damage to themselves or their children that doesn't go away - tetanus like symptoms. The vaccine is so extremely toxic its been diluted and diluted.........and still causing problems in some.  And does it even work?  Questionable.--Sheri Nakken RN http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/tetanus.htm

"Tetanus is a very rare disease in developed countries: there are only about 12 cases of tetanus per year in Australia, and half of those who got it were vaccinated. Perhaps the most interesting thing about tetanus is that those who get it do not develop immunity to it.........Far from immunising, tetanus (and other) vaccine injections make the recipients more susceptible to diseases. ......the New England Journal of Medicine published in 1984 that tetanus booster injections result in the same derangement of T4 and T8 cells as seen in AIDS patients. A 'mysterious' new syndrome emerged in the US: thousands of children are developing AIDS symptoms (with deranged T4 and T8 cells) without being HIV positive My well-considered opinion is that it comes from that T (standing for tetanus) in the DPT vaccine."---Viera Scheibner

"Classen's data and other published data indicates the following vaccines are associated with an increased risk of diabetes (increased risk): hepatitis B (50%), hemophilus (25%), tetanus (20%), diphtheria (9%), pertussis (25%), mumps- rubella (23%).  These findings are supported by a case control study performed in Europe.  The cumulative effect of all these vaccines on diabetes is tremendous."--PRNewswire

"Wounds that bleed will never result in tetanus because the tetanus bacillus is anaerobic. It is absolutely silly to vaccinate boys who cut their knees. The only reason behind that is money."--Dr Buchwald MD

"If your immunisation income is below the national average, offer tetanus boosters for adults who have not received one in the preceding 10 years. Also pick up those who have never had a primary course. You could do this opportunistically during consultations or by recall from the computer. Check on immunisation status at new patient checks.  With tetanus (as well as typhoid and infectious hepatitis), you can generate income from reimbursement for personally administered vaccine under paragraph 44.5 of the Red Book. "---Financial Pulse

" In Philadelphia and vicinity there were in the autumn of 1901 no fewer than thirty-six cases of tetanus, or lockjaw, which were admitted to have resulted from vaccination, and nearly all were fatal."--John Pitcairn

"Now it happened that wood was particularly scarce (in) the country, so the cases of the anti-tetanic serum were a God-send as kindling, as we were badly in want of tea.  As regards the anti-tetanic serum we chucked the bottles full of it over the trenches also; it went over the top after the dead Turks."--Lt Col Donegan (1925)

http://www.whale.to/a/tetanus.html

----------


## Weston White

RonRules, I am really sorry to say, but your OP is entirely, completely, and utterly out of line.  Pointedly, it is deserving of no detailed response.  Not in the least.

*   That being said, most of the replies are totally RonRockin!

----------


## DGambler

I still don't understand, if immunity from vaccinations runs out and the majority of adults don't get boosters, then why aren't we having pandemics?  

Can someone please explain this to me? I thought the argument for vaccination was community immunity? 

[drip] I probably don't understand all the big words littered throughout this thread is all. [/drip]

----------


## donnay



----------


## donnay



----------


## donnay



----------


## helmuth_hubener

The opening post seemed pretty reasonable to me.  You don't take the libertarian stance on it, unfortunately, RonRules, which is to let everyone do as they please.  But scientifically it seemed to be on solid ground.  And Whittaker seemed to be somewhat of an embarrassment.

Now on the flu vaccine in particular, it is ridiculous and most people should probably not take it, in my opinion.  If you look at a chart of life expectancy in the US, it goes smoothly and steadily up, year after year... except for one strange blip.  In 1993, life expectancy went down.  It takes a lot of extra deaths in a year to cause the life expectancy rate to go down.  Read about it here:

http://www.newswithviews.com/guest_opinion/guest155.htm

The flu is not the sort of thing that it makes any sense to vaccinate against anyway.  It mutates every year, it's all kinds of different strains, and in short it just can't be vaccinated against effectively.  Take the measles by contrast: the measles are just the measles.  That it.  There aren't 10 different kinds of measles, certainly not 1,000, and certainly not a whole new kind -- make that set of kinds -- of measles coming out every year.  So you can vaccinate against the measles, and have the vaccination work.  Not so the flu.

In conclusion, one shouldn't really be a partisan in scientific matters -- "Pro-immunization" or "anti-immunization" -- because one camp of partisans may be right on one thing, or even in almost all things, but that doesn't mean the other camp might not be right on one of their assertions.  One should go where the data leads.  Easier said than done, that's for sure.

----------


## RonRules

> I still don't understand, if immunity from vaccinations runs out and the majority of adults don't get boosters, then why aren't we having pandemics?


Yet!

----------


## RonRules

> the libertarian stance on it, unfortunately, RonRules, which is to let everyone do as they please.


Not exactly. 

It's also the non-aggression principle. I consider Anti-Vaxers aggressors because vaccines cause no harm to them, yet can cause horrific problems to others. 

So in the case of the tetanus shot, I can ostensibly see that as optional because it's non-contagious.  However, either because of the shared cost risk though insurance and now that we have signed Obama care, we all pay for the medical treatment of others. If someone gets really sick because of tetanus, who's going to pay for it? We all do. A shot is a lot cheaper.

----------


## helmuth_hubener

Harm is not aggression.  I believe careful thinking on the subject would be in order.  

As we do this careful thinking, we should remember to keep in mind that self-ownership is absolute, as is the right of free association, and of course of disassociation.

----------


## RonRules

> Harm is not aggression


If it's willful, it is. That's why willfully transmitting an STD will land you with criminal and civil charges.

----------


## libertyjam

> Yet!


60 years of no herd immunity and we're still waiting

----------


## Sola_Fide

This is the first time I've looked at this thread.

But it doesn't surprise me in the least that the OP started out with "I'm a scientific skeptic" and ended with a proposal for some form of social force in the name of science.

Time and time again, whether it is statist education or mandatory injections, the religious believers in science show their deviations from freedom.

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> If it's willful, it is. That's why willfully transmitting an STD will land you with criminal and civil charges.


 But should it?  Let's say you fully disclosed your disease(s) and the person still chose to go on with it.  There was no fraud.  But in the aftermath there was harm.  Did you really aggress on the other person?

Let's say I willfully and intentionally harm you by opening a grocery store right across the street from yours.  Is that aggression?

----------


## Origanalist

> But should it?  Let's say you fully disclosed your disease(s) and the person still chose to go on with it.  There was no fraud.  But in the aftermath there was harm.  Did you really aggress on the other person?
> 
> Let's say I willfully and intentionally harm you by opening a grocery store right across the street from yours.  Is that aggression?


It is if you sell organic foods and raw milk.

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> It is if you sell organic foods and raw milk.


 What if you sell mercury-laden vaccines and genetically modified vegetables?

----------


## DGambler

> In conclusion, one shouldn't really be a partisan in scientific matters -- "Pro-immunization" or "anti-immunization" -- because one camp of partisans may be right on one thing, or even in almost all things, but that doesn't mean the other camp might not be right on one of their assertions.  One should go where the data leads.  Easier said than done, that's for sure.


I agree with this, but when there are blatant lies about studies, side effects and efficacy, then where do you go for the data (this is on both sides)?  

I believe that any drug, irregardless if it is a vaccine or a pill, should be required to go through transparent studies that aren't conducted by the drug company themselves.  

What really sets off alarm bells for me is that there is a National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program that as I understands it is the only way to seek compensation for injuries resulting from vaccines.  The Vaccine Injury Compensation Trust Fund provides funding for the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program to compensate vaccine-related injury or death claims for covered vaccines administered on or after October 1, 1988.

Funded by a $0.75 excise tax on vaccines recommended by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for routine administration to children. The excise tax is imposed on each dose (disease that is prevented) of a vaccine. Trivalent influenza vaccine for example, is taxed $0.75 because it prevents one disease;  measles-mumps-rubella vaccine, which prevents three diseases, is taxed $2.25.  The Department of Treasury collects the excise taxes and manages the Fund’s investments.

At it's core, it's an independent court for this ONE TYPE of "drug"... why is that?  If I'm wrong, and you can bring a civil case for injuries, then I'm willing to be corrected on that point.

There is also the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) in place as well, you can go and search yourself on the types of injuries being submitted: http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/index.php

Granted, I haven't investigated if this type of setup is common for other classes of drugs, it just seems odd that this would be put in place in 1988, before (I think) any major stories about vaccine injuries.

----------


## DGambler

> Yet!


You didn't answer my question.

----------


## RonRules

> At it's core, it's an independent court for this ONE TYPE of "drug"... why is that?  If I'm wrong, and you can bring a civil case for injuries, then I'm willing to be corrected on that point.


It's simply because it's not profitable to make vaccine shots. Because of an early slew of frivolous lawsuits, when the first anti-vaxers started suing, most manufacturers were pulling out of the market. The gov, seeing the great danger of not having vaccines available, took responsibility of the risk.

----------


## libertyjam

That 's pretty rich, calling the vaccine injured and dead - "the first anti-vaxers".

----------


## RonRules

> You didn't answer my question.


We didn't get massive epidemics yet, because a LOT of people are vaccinated. It's not a perfect herd immunity, but adequate to prevent massive deaths toll. Thousands die now, not millions, due to the partially vaccinated population.

The more the anti-vaxers spread their poison, the more likely such an epidemic will happen. I'm expecting one in my lifetime.

----------


## DGambler

> It's simply because it's not profitable to make vaccine shots. Because of an early slew of frivolous lawsuits, when the first anti-vaxers started suing, most manufacturers were pulling out of the market. The gov, seeing the great danger of not having vaccines available, took responsibility of the risk.


So government is our savior?

What about free market economics?

Can you change your username please?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> So in the case of the tetanus shot, I can ostensibly see that as optional because it's non-contagious.  However, either because of the shared cost risk though insurance and now that we have signed Obama care, we all pay for the medical treatment of others. If someone gets really sick because of tetanus, who's going to pay for it? We all do. A shot is a lot cheaper.


Exactly my point, although the larger question is why you are so staunchly defending health fascism on a "liberty" forum.

Using your logic, as stated above, not one single second of your life is outside the realm of regulation and surveillance, since "we all are affected by the choices you make".

I suggest you do some serious thinking on your philosophical outlook on life, there is a huge, massive, Milky Way sized chasm in your thinking on this.

Unless you're just trolling all of us for hah hahs.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> One the other hand, if you refuse vaccination for a highly contagious disease and deadly like smallpox, then I think there should be criminal and/or civil penalties.


Yes, you have made that very clear, if you had your way, you would imprison people for not following your medical counsel.

What's stunning is that I really think you are serious about that.

Civil penalties?

Should I be able to sue you if you give me a cold?

Should I be able to sue my airline for not medically screening out sick people who get onboard and then get me sick?

----------


## DGambler

I've got a massive sinus infection after my last flight, I think I'll call a lawyer.

----------


## Neil Desmond

> Should I be able to sue my airline for not medically screening out sick people who get onboard and then get me sick?


Are there airlines that screen out sick people to prevent them from boarding?

----------


## RonRules

> Are there airlines that screen out sick people to prevent them from boarding?


FLIR cameras were used during the SARS virus outbreak to prevent people with a fever from boarding airplanes.

These people sell the equipment:
http://www.cantronics.com/thermal-cameras/192

*A New Airport Ritual, Swine Flu Screening*
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/200...flu-screening/

----------


## mac_hine

The last time I got the flu was 14 years ago, *AFTER GETTING A GODDAMN FLU SHOT.* Pharmacies like CVS and Rite Aid hawk flu shots 12 months out of the year now. It's insane.



Part one of an exclusive interview with Dr. Sherri Tenpenny, author of "Saying No to Vaccines" (www.SayingNoToVaccines.vom) with the Health Ranger of www.NaturalNews.com

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Pharmacies like CVS and Rite Aid hawk flu shots 12 months out of the year now. It's insane.


Yeah, they pass *those* out like candy, but try to get some OTC cold medicine or treatment for a simple ailment.

That requires an Act of Congress.

Why, do you suppose?

----------


## Dr.3D

> You didn't answer my question.


He didn't answer mine either.  All I got was a bunch of questions back.

----------


## RonRules

> 


Why do you guys believe the info from known Quacks? She has no clue about statistics and she's supposed to be a doctor. 

http://scientopia.org/blogs/whitecoa...es-and-idiots/

Dr. Sherri Tenpenny is reportedly a doctor, although according to her website, she no longer practices medicine in any recognizable way. Perhaps that's why she utters completely idiotic statements such as this one pointed out to me by Brother Orac:

Study these numbers. We've had SARS, Bird flu and Swine flu. On average, approx. 190 children/year die from the flu. Considering there are about 62M kids under the 14 years of age in the US, this is *NOT "statistically signficant"* and should not even make the radar screen. See how they manipulate parents into vaccinations?

But Tenpenny claims that this number is not "statistically significant".  What does that mean?  Does she even know?  Statistical significance is a tool used when analyzing data, not when interpreting its moral significance.  If, for example, you did a study in which you arbitrarily determined that a p value of < 0.05 would be significant, and the data failed to reach this, then your results would not be statistically significant.  They may or may not be clinically significant.  In looking at raw data, such as the number of confirmed pediatric flu deaths, statistical significance is meaningless.  

What isn't meaningless is that there are hundreds of dead kids that wouldn't have been dead if this pandemic hadn't happened, and whose deaths might have been prevented by aggressive vaccination programs.  Anti-vaccination lunatics are so deeply inculcated in their cult beliefs that dead children mean nothing to them.  As a parent and a human being, I find this abominable.

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> What isn't meaningless is that there are hundreds of dead kids that wouldn't have been dead if this pandemic hadn't happened, and whose deaths might have been prevented by aggressive vaccination programs.  Anti-vaccination lunatics are so deeply inculcated in their cult beliefs that dead children mean nothing to them.  As a parent and a human being, I find this abominable.


 As the above statement shows, the "PalMD" person you quote is not looking at this topic in a calm and serious manner.

Children die all the time.  The fact of certain children's deaths is not a reason that those wishing to "do something!" are right.  The "something" they want to do may be meaningless.  It may be ineffective.  It may be counterproductive.

One should keep a perspective and weigh the costs.  The economic value of a human life is not infinite.  If the cost of a program is 1 billion and it only saves 10 lives, that means it's costing $100 million per life saved.  That is more than those lives are worth.

----------


## RonRules

> Children die all the time.


Wow.

What you don't realize is that MILLIONS of children would be dying if there was no vaccination. The vaccination rate for American children is very high, yet hundreds die.

How many kids do you have?

----------


## DGambler

> Wow.
> 
> What you don't realize is that MILLIONS of children would be dying if there was no vaccination. The vaccination rate for American children is very high, yet hundreds die.
> 
> How many kids do you have?


Hey, I've got an idea.   Why don't you start responding to people's post in there entirety instead of cherry picking $#@! and trying to change the conversation. You've been doing it for multiple pages now. 

I've got 2 kids and I have both of them on a modified schedule after researching each vaccine.  I also get the lot Number prior to taking them to the doctor to make sure it isn't a hot lot, do you or are you playing Russian Roulette with your kids?

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> What you don't realize is that MILLIONS of children would be dying if there was no vaccination.


 Do you have scientific grounds for that statement?  The expert from your opening post who debated at FreedomFest, he would not make such a baseless and unscientific statement.  Did "MILLIONS" (I'm glad you made it CAPITAL LETTERS, lest we not catch your irrationality) of children die each year in the U.S. before vaccination existed?  That brings up another question: millions over what time period?  Millions are dying _right now_, since any non-zero number per year will eventually add up to millions.

Anyway, you have not really responded to anything else I've written, so I'll just save the suspense and answer for you that no, you have no scientific reason whatsoever to state "MILLIONS of children would be dying [annually, in the United States] if there was no vaccination".  There is absolutely no way that any of the diseases which have been dispatched by vaccination (measles, mumps, rubella, polio) are going to stage a comeback and get to the point where they are killing millions of children per year.  That is a completely baseless, and thus unscientific, belief to hold.  You are free to hold it -- I am all for people having the liberty to hold whatever baseless and kooky ideas they wish -- but just be aware it is baseless and kooky.




> The vaccination rate for American children is very high, yet hundreds die.


 Hundreds die _of what_?  What exactly are you talking about?  You're going to have to think and write a little more clearly if we're to have any hope of communicating.

However, again, you have not really responded to anything else I've written, so as a shortcut to save time I will just answer for you that you are talking about hundreds of children dying of *the flu* (annually, in the U.S.), because that was mentioned the most recent screed you read, so it was fresh in your memory.  There are not hundreds of children in the United States dying annually of measles, nor of mumps, nor of rubella, nor of polio, nor even of whooping cough though it at least does cause several deaths per year (not all children).  There are, however, between a quarter and a half million annual deaths worldwide caused by the flu, including 3,000-49,000 in the US.  It would be good to bring that number down to become an *insignificant statistic* like 200.  That would be a hugely wonderful thing to do.  I am all for that.

Almost 100,000 elderly people died in 1993 from a bad batch of flu vaccine.  Preventing things like that would be a hugely wonderful thing too.

Do you think that merely convincing forcing everyone to participate in the CDC's current flu vaccination program will stop the flu from killing so many people?  Here is a big hint to take into consideration as you choose your answer: it won't.  The flu is a difficult case.  I don't know what the answer to eradication is.  Neither do the expert epidemiologists.  Maybe someday we'll figure it out.

On a related note:

Has anyone here played Pandemic?  It is so very fun!  If you like board games, I recommend it.

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/30549/pandemic

----------


## kathy88

I can't believe this thread is still going. It's like the $#@!ing energizer bunny.

----------


## DGambler

I've played it on the ipad, fun gane

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/pande...483737492?mt=8

----------


## helmuth_hubener

Totally different game, but that looks fun, too.

----------


## DGambler

> Totally different game, but that looks fun, too.


So, do you think he'll take my challenge to stop cherry picking quotes? Think he researches hot lots?

----------


## RonRules

> Almost 100,000 elderly people died in 1993 from a bad batch of flu vaccine.


Why don't you confirm the crap you post:

http://www.idph.state.il.us/flu/fluhome.htm
Since 1992, the highest number of flu and pneumonia deaths was the *4,021 recorded in 1993.* 

But here's the critical issue: "In the 1993 edition of MMWR, 84 percent of the isolated influenza samples for the predominant virus (A(H3N2)) were not similar to the virus in the vaccine."

So, because the 1993 vaccine did not match the currently propagating, dominant virus, 4,021 people died.

Viruses mutate and it's extremely important that the vaccines match the current virus.

Now look again how you're showing this: *"Almost 100,000 elderly people died in 1993 from a bad batch of flu vaccine."* 
Most readers would interpret the above sentence thinking the vaccine was toxic and killed 100,000 people.

That's completely irresponsible and dangerous.

To the rest of the readers: just imagine if NO vaccines were available? That's why the word "MILLIONS" needs to be capitalized.

----------


## RonRules

This here is a good set or slides that explains the need to use vaccines:

http://ocw.jhsph.edu/courses/EpiInfe..._Steinhoff.pdf

----------


## dbill27

> It was eradicated because of better sanitation and hygiene--that's why.
> 
> I have a friend of mine who is 56 years old, and has NEVER had one vaccine.  She is healthy as a horse!


That's really your argument? In other words, if I know someone who runs marathons every week and he dies young, being in shape killed him. I know one smoker who lived to be 99, therefore smoking is not harmful..

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> Why don't you confirm the crap you post:


 Oh, I certainly do try.




> So, because the 1993 vaccine did not match the currently propagating, dominant virus, 4,021 people died.


 No, some would have died even had the vaccine matched. And it really depends how you count it.  CDC says about 36,000 die each year from flu-related causes.  Between 3,000 and 49,000 was the range I gave (I got it from the CDC also), and seems to be a good safe range.  No one knows for sure.  It's hard to say.




> Viruses mutate and it's extremely important that the vaccines match the current virus.


 It is extremely important, and, in the case of the flu, not possible.  Maybe someday.




> Now look again how you're showing this: *"Almost 100,000 elderly people died in 1993 from a bad batch of flu vaccine."* 
> Most readers would interpret the above sentence thinking the vaccine was toxic and killed 100,000 people.


 That is good, because that was in fact the information I was trying to convey.  That in fact appears to be the case.  There was a huge epidemic of nursing home deaths that year -- 93,000 extra deaths.  That's almost 100,000 deaths.  Just an enormous spike of deaths.  So enormous, the life expectancy decreased.  This should be a big deal.  This epidemic may have been related to the flu vaccine.  There does not seem to be any other explanation for it.






> To the rest of the readers: just imagine if NO vaccines were available? That's why the word "MILLIONS" needs to be capitalized.


 No vaccines for what?  I don't understand your point here.  Are you trying to insinuate that I would prefer there to be no vaccines available?

----------


## DGambler

RR, when, and if, you respond to HH, please do so in entirety and don't cherry pick.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Not exactly. 
> 
> It's also the non-aggression principle. I consider Anti-Vaxers aggressors because vaccines cause no harm to them, yet can cause horrific problems to others. 
> 
> So in the case of the tetanus shot, I can ostensibly see that as optional because it's non-contagious.  However, either because of the shared cost risk though insurance and now that we have signed Obama care, we all pay for the medical treatment of others. If someone gets really sick because of tetanus, who's going to pay for it? We all do. A shot is a lot cheaper.


Wait a minute.  You're pro-vaccine, and yet you think vaccines cause "horrific problems" for people?  Then you go on to say that because anti-vaxers say that you shouldn't take a vaccine and don't take it themselves, that they are actively aggressing against someone?  Are you serious?

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> It's simply because it's not profitable to make vaccine shots. Because of an early slew of frivolous lawsuits, when the first anti-vaxers started suing, most manufacturers were pulling out of the market. The gov, seeing the great danger of not having vaccines available, took responsibility of the risk.


And the government saves the day.  How convenient.  

And I'm sure it's just because the government really cares for our health.  

Please.  If something can't survive in the market, then it should disappear.  You are obviously anti-freedom if you think the government should rescue failed practices.  Whole proffessions don't go out of business just because of lawsuilts.  And if they do, then there must be a reason for all of those lawsuits that it had such an effect as to push the practice completely out of business.  In other words, if your product is so harmful that it causes you and everybody else in your line of business to disappear, then those lawsuits must have been legitimate.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> We didn't get massive epidemics yet, because a LOT of people are vaccinated. It's not a perfect herd immunity, but adequate to prevent massive deaths toll. Thousands die now, not millions, due to the partially vaccinated population.
> 
> The more the anti-vaxers spread their poison, the more likely such an epidemic will happen. I'm expecting one in my lifetime.


I've learned to be wary of anyone who promotes herd ANYTHING.  Herd mentality comes in a lot of forms, and if somebody advocates a practice uniform across all of society, regardless of any individual's feelings or thoughts, then you are anti-liberty, plain and simple.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Wow.
> 
> What you don't realize is that MILLIONS of children would be dying if there was no vaccination. The vaccination rate for American children is very high, yet hundreds die.
> 
> How many kids do you have?


Those kids would die with or without vaccines.  Amazingly, I fail to see how you can assert that MILLIONS (!!!) would die without any evidence whatsoever.  I don't realize that because I don't have any reason to think what you just said is true.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Do you have scientific grounds for that statement?  The expert from your opening post who debated at FreedomFest, he would not make such a baseless and unscientific statement.  Did "MILLIONS" (I'm glad you made it CAPITAL LETTERS, lest we not catch your irrationality) of children die each year in the U.S. before vaccination existed?  That brings up another question: millions over what time period?  Millions are dying _right now_, since any non-zero number per year will eventually add up to millions.
> 
> Anyway, you have not really responded to anything else I've written, so I'll just save the suspense and answer for you that no, you have no scientific reason whatsoever to state "MILLIONS of children would be dying [annually, in the United States] if there was no vaccination".  There is absolutely no way that any of the diseases which have been dispatched by vaccination (measles, mumps, rubella, polio) are going to stage a comeback and get to the point where they are killing millions of children per year.  That is a completely baseless, and thus unscientific, belief to hold.  You are free to hold it -- I am all for people having the liberty to hold whatever baseless and kooky ideas they wish -- but just be aware it is baseless and kooky.
> 
>  Hundreds die _of what_?  What exactly are you talking about?  You're going to have to think and write a little more clearly if we're to have any hope of communicating.
> 
> However, again, you have not really responded to anything else I've written, so as a shortcut to save time I will just answer for you that you are talking about hundreds of children dying of *the flu* (annually, in the U.S.), because that was mentioned the most recent screed you read, so it was fresh in your memory.  There are not hundreds of children in the United States dying annually of measles, nor of mumps, nor of rubella, nor of polio, nor even of whooping cough though it at least does cause several deaths per year (not all children).  There are, however, between a quarter and a half million annual deaths worldwide caused by the flu, including 3,000-49,000 in the US.  It would be good to bring that number down to become an *insignificant statistic* like 200.  That would be a hugely wonderful thing to do.  I am all for that.
> 
> Almost 100,000 elderly people died in 1993 from a bad batch of flu vaccine.  Preventing things like that would be a hugely wonderful thing too.
> ...


Love that game.  Kill all humans!

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> Love that game.  Kill all humans!


 Wow, apparently the iApp Pandemic is extremely popular!

In the board game, you're actually trying to wipe out the disease and save all humans.  But it's still fun.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Why don't you confirm the crap you post:
> 
> http://www.idph.state.il.us/flu/fluhome.htm
> Since 1992, the highest number of flu and pneumonia deaths was the *4,021 recorded in 1993.* 
> 
> But here's the critical issue: "In the 1993 edition of MMWR, 84 percent of the isolated influenza samples for the predominant virus (A(H3N2)) were not similar to the virus in the vaccine."
> 
> So, because the 1993 vaccine did not match the currently propagating, dominant virus, 4,021 people died.
> 
> ...


Helmut just slammed down your blind assertion that MILLIONS would die.  No, they would not.  Stop ignoring valid points and cherry picking the things you want to respond to.

----------


## PaulConventionWV

> Wow, apparently the iApp Pandemic is extremely popular!
> 
> In the board game, you're actually trying to wipe out the disease and save all humans.  But it's still fun.


Oh, I see.  Yeah, the Pandemic game I was thinking of lets you choose what type of infectious disease you want to be and try to eradicate humanity.  It is fun.  Damn Madagascar, though.

----------


## DGambler

I always have a problem with Greenland. 

Did we run RR off or is he busy with his humanity saving spreadsheet?

----------


## donnay

> That's really your argument? In other words, if I know someone who runs marathons every week and he dies young, being in shape killed him. I know one smoker who lived to be 99, therefore smoking is not harmful..


My argument is that most of the diseases started to decline before vaccines were even introduced.  Most of that is due to sanitation and hygiene. 

The person I named, has a family of 7 and not one of them have been vaccinated.  I know a lot more people who refuse toxic vaccines who are just as healthy.  Just posting my personal observations.  I also know people who have vaccines, and a good many of them have chronic illness.

----------


## ZENemy

> My argument is that most of the diseases started to decline before vaccines were even introduced.  Most of that is due to sanitation and hygiene. 
> 
> *The person I named, has a family of 7 and not one of them have been vaccinated.  I know a lot more people who refuse toxic vaccines who are just as healthy.  Just posting my personal observations.  I also know people who have vaccines, and a good many of them have chronic illness*.


Me too, no vaccines in my life, never, ever sick. I am known around the office for never being sick, it seems that every single person I know that has no vaccines is NEVER sick. This is my personal experience, I have several friends that get yearly vaccines and they are always sick, its as simple as that. Your mileage may vary and you should do what you feel is best for YOUR body.

Whats up with THIS guy? Doesn't this guy drive most of the *main stream* health concerns of today?

----------


## RonRules

> Wait a minute.  You're pro-vaccine, and yet you think vaccines cause "horrific problems" for people?


You've misunderstood. NOT using vaccines will cause horrific problems, like it has in the middle ages with the various multi-million death plagues humanity suffered.

----------


## RonRules

> My argument is that most of the diseases started to decline before vaccines were even introduced.  Most of that is due to sanitation and hygiene.


That was explained on the first page of the thread. You're lying misinforming again.

----------


## RonRules

> 


He himself took the vaccine and urges pregnant women and young children to take it too.

Note how he says: "My WIFE is not going to immunize our kids".

Sounds like Oz is not wearing the pants at home and may have a nutty wife problem.

----------


## ZENemy

> He himself took the vaccine and urges pregnant women and young children to take it too.
> 
> Note how he says: "My WIFE is not going to immunize our kids".
> 
> Sounds like Oz is not wearing the pants at home and may have a nutty wife problem.


*Edited for oops!*

Thank god I don't have kids and only have to make decisions for myself! That being said, if I was a doctor and deep down in my heart I knew these vaccines would save my kids lives, there would be no way to stop me.

----------


## DGambler

> He himself took the vaccine and urges pregnant women and young children to take it too.
> 
> Note how he says: "My WIFE is not going to immunize our kids". 
> 
> Sounds like Oz is not wearing the pants at home and may have a nutty wife problem.


Obviously, he needs to have a no knock warrant served on his ass and his kids need to be forcibly immunized.

----------


## DGambler

In 2010, the largest outbreak of whooping cough in over 50 years occurred in California.  Research published in March of this year shows that *81 percent* of 2010 California whooping cough cases in people under the age of 18 occurred in those who were *fully up to date on the whooping cough vaccine*. 11 percent had received at least one shot, but not the entire recommended series, and _only eight percent of those stricken were unvaccinated_.

How then, can this outbreak be blamed on not having "herd immunity"?  The only thing that you can point your finger at is INEFFECTIVE vaccines.  If they are ineffective, then why get them?  So you can get a gold star next to your name?

----------


## angelatc

> In 2010, the largest outbreak of whooping cough in over 50 years occurred in California.  Research published in March of this year shows that *81 percent* of 2010 California whooping cough cases in people under the age of 18 occurred in those who were *fully up to date on the whooping cough vaccine*. 11 percent had received at least one shot, but not the entire recommended series, and _only eight percent of those stricken were unvaccinated_.
> 
> How then, can this outbreak be blamed on not having "herd immunity"?  The only thing that you can point your finger at is INEFFECTIVE vaccines.  If they are ineffective, then why get them?  So you can get a gold star next to your name?


You people pick your talking points and repeat them no matter how many times they're mocked and ridiculed.   ANd I notice you didn't give a source, so I'll assume it's a anti-vaccine alarmist chatter site.  What your Gods didn't tell you is that In the California 2010 outbreak, the incidence of whooping cough was highest (38.5 cases per 100,000) among infants aged <1 year; *89% of cases were among infants aged <6 months, who are too young to be fully immunized.* Incidence among children aged 7--9 years and 10--18 years was 10.1 cases and 9.3 cases per 100,000, respectively.

The children had not completed the entire vaccine cycle, so it's pretty $#@!ing biased to rant about how they had their shots when in fact, they had likely only had 1 of the recommended doses.

The main point of the pertussis vaccine is to keep infants from dying from pertussis.  The herd immunity, protects them, along with the 10% or so who don't develop immunity when vaccinated, precisely because they're not fully immune yet. 

Nobody has ever claimed that the vaccines were 100% effective.   But if the population was not vaccinated, outbreaks of whooping cough would be much, much bigger. History and science prove that, and disprove the hygiene nonsense, by showing immediate drops in infections in populations where no significant advances in hygiene have taken place.

And by the way, if you click through the link, you'll see that none of the children that actually died during this outbreak had received even their first immunization.

----------


## Meatwasp

We live way out and hardly go out. We never had a cold or flu. Then company cames and out of kindness they say, had a flu shot. After they left we all got terrible flus. I asked a nurse if people could get the flu from someone who just had the shot. She told me defiantly . So people that get these shots are carriers. I make sure nobody comes down here that has had those damn shots.

----------


## Origanalist

> We live way out and hardly go out. We never had a cold or flu. Then company cames and out of kindness they say, had a flu shot. After they left we all got terrible flus. I asked a nurse if people could get the flu from someone who just had the shot. She told me defiantly . So people that get these shots are carriers. I make sure nobody comes down here that has had those damn shots.


They are a menace to those that choose not to be vaccinated, I say quarantine them.

----------


## donnay

*Worst whooping cough outbreak in over 50 years happening among the fully vaccinated*
by: *Craig Stellpflug*

If four shots of toxic vaccines do not work against pertussis (AKA whooping cough), then maybe five or six will work... Or maybe not... The CDC now reports the highest level of pertussis cases in 50 years. Of course, they are encouraging all children and adults to line up for yet another shot in the dark.

Dr. Anne Schuchat, director of National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases reports 18,000 nationwide cases of pertussis so far this year - twice as many cases as there were at this time in 2011 and matching the 1959 numbers reported by this time of the year.

Pertussis is a bacterial infection involving the respiratory tract that spreads by coughing and sneezing. It often starts out like the common cold, but can become a life-threatening infection, particularly for infants under the age of one. The vaccination for pertussis is included in the DTaP vaccine.

The pertussis vaccine in not solving the problem

CDC data shows 84 percent of children under the age of three have received at least four DTaP shots and yet, despite high vaccination rates, whooping cough still keeps circulating, largely among the fully vaccinated. This is because pertussis is a cyclical disease where natural increases in infection tend to occur every four to five years no matter how high the vaccination rates are.

81 percent of 2010 California pertussis cases under the age of 18 were fully vaccinated children. In a pertussis outbreak in Texas, the CDC statistics show that 81.5 percent of cases were fully vaccinated with four DTaP shots. Washington State health officials are saying this year's pertussis cases could top a 60 year old record in spite of approximately 84 percent vaccination coverage. Reuters recently reported that according to the CDC, the number of pertussis cases is growing - in the fully vaccinated population!

In a very recent DTaP vaccine study, researchers reported a dismal 24 percent vaccine effectiveness among those aged 8-12. With this ridiculously low rate of DTaP vaccine effectiveness, the public health brainiacs have come up with their best plan for everybody to have three primary shots and three follow-up booster shots.

DTaP is bad news for babies

A study at UCLA indicated that in the USA, approximately 1,000 babies die annually as a direct result of DTaP vaccination. One survey found a 7.3 percent risk of SIDS within three days after a DTaP inoculation.

Vaccine reaction symptoms within days of the DTaP shot include: high fever; sudden collapse; hours of persistent crying, high pitched screaming with arching of the back, signs of brain inflammation; severe and/or bloody diarrhea; redness, swelling and pain at the injection site and signs of seizures.

Raymond Obomsawin, M.D. said "Delay of DPT immunisation until two years of age in Japan has resulted in a dramatic decline in adverse side effects... an 85 to 90 percent reduction in severe cases of damage and death." Amazingly, pertussis during the first two years of babies' lives also dropped sharply. Instead of preventing pertussis, the DTaP actually promotes it as well as SIDS.

Many vaccines are implicated in causing Juvenile Diabetes, but the vaccine-virulent poison - pertussis toxin, is the worst. Pertussis toxin affects the pancreas in the insulin-secreting parts. As early as the 1970s, the pertussis shot was known to stimulate over-production of insulin by the pancreas followed by exhaustion and destruction of the islets of Langerhans, resulting in diabetes.

Vaccination is not immunization!

Recovering from whooping cough confers a naturally-acquired immunity that is much stronger and longer lasting than any artificial immunity induced by the toxic laden vaccine. Vaccination requires more and more booster doses to try to extend the artificial vaccine immunity.

Vaccines are medical procedures that always come with risks. Study up before you let them shoot your child!

Sources for this article

http://abcnews.go.com
http://www.nvic.org/Myths-and-Facts.aspx
http://www.nvic.org

About the author:
Craig Stellpflug is a Cancer Nutrition Specialist, Lifestyle Coach and Neuro Development Consultant at Healing Pathways Medical Clinic, Scottsdale, AZ. http://www.healingpathwayscancerclinic.com/ With 17 years of clinical experience working with both brain disorders and cancer, Craig has seen first-hand the devastating effects of vaccines and pharmaceuticals on the human body and has come to the conclusion that a natural lifestyle and natural remedies are the true answers to health and vibrant living. You can find his daily health blog at www.blog.realhealthtalk.com and his articles and radio show archives at www.realhealthtalk.com

----------


## Meatwasp

Yeah!  R.R. wants everything he dissagrees with made against the law. I looked under Rules. An authoritive prescribed direction for conduct

----------


## Origanalist

> Yeah!  R.R. wants everything he dissagrees with made against the law. I looked under Rules. An authoritive prescribed direction for conduct


                              ^^^^

----------


## Lucille

My youngest got whooping cough and he was vaccinated.

Not all kids can handle vaccinations.  It depends on the individual.  I know one poor lady whose daughter died right after her vaccination, and one of her sons was also stricken with cerebral palsy right after his.  WTH the govt-medical industrial complex insists on pumping so much crap into such new, tiny, vulnerable bodies is beyond me.

http://voxday.blogspot.ch/2012/06/le...-schedule.html

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2012/06/a...cine-info.html




> Occam's Razor strongly suggests that one of the easiest ways to reduce the likelihood of vaccine death, and presumably non-fatal vaccine damage as well, is to simply push back the vaccine schedule by at least three months, or better yet, one year, when the child's body will be bigger and therefore more capable of dealing with the foreign substances being injected into it.  Of course, there is always the option of not vaccinating the child for the less dangerous diseases; the spike in 65+ deaths is almost certainly the result of adverse reactions to the various flu vaccines.
> 
> One needn't be a rabid opponent of vaccines to find this death spike at 3 months to be troubling and indicative of a need to rethink the current vaccine schedule.  And everyone, pro- and anti-vaccine, should be concerned about the shameless vaccine safety propaganda that is so easily shown to be false.  Laws are passed and governments engage in ad campaigns to help reduce the 200 children's bicycle deaths each year, so clearly it is worthwhile to look more closely and scientifically into the issue of vaccine safety when an estimated 1,060 children are dying between 2 and 4 months of age each year from the vaccines being injected into them.

----------


## RonRules

> We live way out and hardly go out. We never had a cold or flu. Then company cames and out of kindness they say, had a flu shot. After they left we all got terrible flus. I asked a nurse if people could get the flu from someone who just had the shot. She told me defiantly . So people that get these shots are carriers. I make sure nobody comes down here that has had those damn shots.


It's not the vaccine that "carries" the virus. It's the fact that being vaccinated, they're immune to the virus. The people that came by your place got the virus somewhere else and brought it with them.

As soon as your kids get in the real world they'll catch all kinds of diseases because they're not vaccinated.

----------


## Meatwasp

> It's not the vaccine that "carries" the virus. It's the fact that being vaccinated, they're immune to the virus. The people that came by your place got the virus somewhere else and brought it with them.
> 
> As soon as your kids get in the real world they'll catch all kinds of diseases because they're not vaccinated.


My kids are grown men and are out in the world all the time.

----------


## Meatwasp

I got interupted but will concure. Yes they got flus . They got the flu the same time people were taking the shots and not before. So your theory is wrong.

----------


## donnay

VACCINATIONS - The Hour of the Time...
*Alex Loglia*

Besides introducing foreign proteins and even live viruses into the bloodstream, each vaccine has its own preservative, neutralizer and carrying agent, none of which are indigenous to the body. For instance, the triple antigen, DPT, which is the Diphtheria, Pertussis, Tetanus vaccine, contains the following poisons: Formaldehyde, Mercury, and aluminum phosphate, and that's from the Physician's Desk Reference, 1980. The packet insert accompanying the vaccine, lists the following poisons: aluminum potassium sulfate, a mercury derivative called Thimersol and sodium phosphate. The packet insert for the polio vaccine lists monkey kidney cell culture, lactalbumin hydrozylate, antibiotics and calf serum. The packet insert for the MMR vaccine produced by Merck Sharp and Dhome which is for measles, mumps and rubella lists chick embryo and neomycin, which is a mixture of antibiotics.

Now chick embryo, monkey kidney cells and calf serum are all foreign proteins which are biological substances composed of animal cells which because they enter directly into the bloodstream can become part of our genetic material. They can become part of our genetic material, folks, remember that, it's going to be important later. These foreign proteins, as well as other carriers and reaction products of a vaccine are potential allergens and can produce anaphylactic shock. Folks, anaphylactic shock is a nice word for brain damage. Reading on...

Another problem with vaccines is that *they go directly into the bloodstream without filtering by the liver.* Dr. William Albrecht tells us the following, "If you take water into your system as a drink, it goes into your bloodstream directly from the stomach, but if you take in fats, they move in through your lymphatic system. When you take other substances like carbohydrates and proteins, they go into the intestines and from there are passed into the liver as the body's chemical filter. Before they go out into the blood and circulate in the body. Most of your vaccination serums and proteins are not filtered by the liver, consequently vaccinations can be a terrific shock to the system. *Injections of foreign substances like viruses, toxins and foreign proteins into the blood stream via vaccinations, have been associated with diseases and disorders to the blood, brain, nervous system and skin. Rare diseases such as atypical measles and monkey fever as well as such well- known disorders as premature aging, allergies, etc. have been associated with vaccines. Also linked to immunizations are such well-known diseases as cancer, leukemia, paralysis, multiple sclerosis, arthritis, and sudden infant death syndrome."*

Folks, I'm not making this up. This is mostly out of Physician's Desk Reference, 1980, and Organic Consumer Reports of 1977.

Now, let me tell you some of the effects of vaccinations that the medical profession admits to as expected side effects of various vaccines, again from Walene James' book. The insert for the DTP vaccine, which is for Diphtheria, Pertussis and Tetanus, under side effects and adverse reactions are listed the following:

    Severe temperature elevations 105° or higher.
    Collapse with rapid recovery.
    Collapse followed by prolonged prostration in shock-like state.
    Screaming episodes.
    Isolated convulsions with or without fever.
    Frank encephalopathy, which is brain damage, with changes in the level of consciousness, focal neurological signs, convulsions with or without permanent neurological and/or mental deficit.

Nice big words, folks, but it's talking about brain damage, shock and severe temperature.

The occurrence of sudden infant death syndrome, which is SIDS, that's the acronym, has been reported following the DPT vaccine. Now, the whooping cough vaccine which is a component in the DPT vaccine has such a high percentage of neurological complications, including death, that several physicians have decided not to give it at all.

And that is quoting Dr. Robert Mendelsohn. He goes on to say, Dr. Edward B. Shaw, a distinguished university of California physician has stated in the Journal of the American Medical Association in March, 1975, "I doubt that the decrease in pertussis is due to the vaccine, which itself is a very poor antigen, and an extremely dangerous one, with many very serious complications."

Reading on from Walene James' book: "A recent study at UCLA estimates that as many as 1 in every 13 children had persistent, high-pitched crying after the DTP shot. This may be indicative of brain damage in the recipient child," says Dr. Bobby Young. And later on he says, "You know, we start off with healthy infants, and we pop them not once, but three or four times with a vaccine. The probability of causing damage is the same each time. My greatest fear is that very few of them escape some kind of neurological damage out of this."

An even more recent figure on the reaction to the DTP vaccine indicates that 1 in every 100 children react with convulsions or collapse or high-pitched screaming. One out of every 3 of these, that is 1 out of every 300 will remain permanently damaged. Now, according to the testimony of the Assistant Secretary of Health, Edward Grant, Jr., before the u.S. Senate Committee on May 3rd, 1985, every year 35,000 children suffer neurological damage because of the DTP vaccine. Bet your doctor didn't tell you that, folks. It just makes you wonder why he never told you this, doesn't it. It also makes you want to run out and get your kids vaccinated, doesn't it? Well, it gets worse.

Here are some of the long term effects of vaccines. This brings us to perhaps the most serious charge against vaccination, the subtle long-term effects. And again, I'm reading from Walene James' book.

Evidence suggests that immunizations damage the immune system itself. By focusing exclusively on increased antibody production, which is only one aspect of the immune process, immunizations isolate dysfunction and allow it to substitute for the entire immune response, because vaccines trick the body so that it will no longer initiate a generalized response. They accomplished what the entire immune system seems to have been evolved to prevent. That is, they place the virus directly into the blood and give it access to the major immune organs and tissues without any obvious way of getting rid of it.

The long-term persistence of viruses and other foreign proteins within the cells of the immune system has been implicated in a number of chronic and degenerative diseases. In 1976 Dr. Robert Simpson of Rutgers university addressed science writers at a seminar of the American Cancer Society, and pointed out the following. "Immunization programs against flu, measles, mumps, polio and so forth may actually be seeding humans with RNA to form latent pro viruses in cells throughout the body. These latent pro viruses could be molecules in search of diseases, including rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis, lupus, Parkinson's disease, and perhaps cancer."

Remember that, folks, seeding humans with RNA to form latent pro viruses in cells throughout the body. That's important. Moving on...

Live viruses, the primary antigenic material of vaccines, (don't be scared by antigenic, folks, it just means any agent that will stimulate antibody production) the primary antigenic material of vaccines, which are live viruses, are capable of surviving or remaining latent in the host cell for years, without provoking acute disease. They attach their own genetic material as an extra particle or episome to the chromosomes of the host cell and replicate along with it. This allows the host cell to continue its own normal functions for the most part, but imposes on it additional instructions for the synthesis of viral proteins. This presence of antigenic material in the host cell can not fail to provoke auto immune phenomenon, such as herpes, shingles, warts, tumors, both benign and malignant, and diseases of the central nervous system such as various forms of paralysis and inflammation of the brain.

So what we're actually talking about here, folks, is viral genetic material being incorporated into your cells, and laying the groundwork for auto immune diseases. And we're going to get into this right now. Reading on...

If the components of the immune system were designed to help the organism discriminate self from non-self as a number of researchers believe, then latent viruses, auto immune phenomenon and cancer would seem to represent different aspects of chronic immune failure, wherein the immune system cannot recognize its own cells as unambiguously its own, or eliminate parasites as unequivocally foreign. By the same token, we might say that the inability of the immune system to distinguish between harmful and harmless substances in the environment, such as allergies, constitutes another aspect of chronic immune failure.

Folks, what they're saying here is that vaccines encourage chronic immune failure, by virtue of the genetic material that you get shot up into your bloodstream whenever you get vaccinated.

The well-known author, lecturer and health activist, Betty Lee Morales, writes that her parents who were naturopathic doctors predicted 50 years ago that cancer would be epidemic in her lifetime as a result of mass vaccinations.

Dr. Robert Mendelsohn, who is an authority on vaccinations, and truly one of the most heroic medical doctors in this century... [Because he is telling the truth]... extends this idea when he says, "I think that most of the degenerative diseases are going to be shown to be due to x-rays, drugs and polluted food, additives, preservatives, and immunizations. With all of our discoveries about the effects on the human body of ingesting substances not found in nature, one thing we ought to know by now, is that many of these toxins, and vaccinations are toxins by definition, kill slowly, or kill only after the lapse of significant periods of time.

And that's a quote from Nicholas von Hoffman in his Washington Post column. Now from around the world. From West Germany, we read of more vaccination casualties. A reader writing to Organic Consumer Report, June 13, 1968 mentions an article which appeared in Medical World which stated that about 3,000 children each year suffer varying degrees of brain damage as a result of the small pox vaccination. This same writer mentions another medical journal in which Dr. G. Kotel reported that in the previous year, small pox vaccination damaged the hearing of 3,296 children in W. Germany and 71 became totally deaf. Hearing loss was reported by Dr. William Albrecht, who said in the article that I quoted earlier, that a typhoid shot he received made him stone deaf in one ear as well as deathly ill at the time of the shot. Now listen to this, folks, because this is where the big con starts.

In case after case of deaths which are really deaths from vaccinations, the cause of death is never listed as the vaccine. Asthma, however, acute lymphatic leukemia, streptococcal cellulitis, tubercular meningitis, and infantile paralysis are just a few of the fake causes of death listed on the death certificate of people who are dying from vaccinations. So much for these poisons being safe, now let's see how effective they are.

Statistics from around the world show unequivocally that infectious diseases like small pox, diphtheria, whooping cough, scarlet fever, etc., began to disappear long before vaccinations ever came on the scene. Now I'm quoting World Health Statistics Annual 1973-1976, Volume II. "There has been a steady decline of infectious diseases in most developing countries regardless of the percentage of immunizations administered in these countries."

I'll bet you didn't know that, folks, and I'll bet you didn't know this either, but I do know this from my research and from my own experimentation; personal hygiene and diet stop diseases, folks, not injecting virulent free-floating genetic material into your veins with all kinds of poisonous cancerous carrying agents which is what vaccines are. I'm going to now give you a key as to why you've been conned into believing that vaccines do stop diseases. I'm looking at a chart from Australian Nurses Journal from June of 1981. A top chart shows a curve of deaths per million children under 15 attributable to scarlet fever, diphtheria, whooping cough and measles. We're looking at a graph here. The graph runs the years from 1860 to 1965, and the death rate just goes down, having peaked in 1860 at 6,000 fatalities per million, and bottoming out near zero in 1965. So, it's just a downward sloping line going down from 6000 to 0 from 1860 to 1965. It looks really impressive, like could all of these communicable diseases have been wiped out.

However, the only problem is that immunizations were introduced into this picture in the 1940s when the number of fatalities per million had already dropped from 6000 to 1000, thus from looking at the nearly straight line of the curve, you see that the vaccinations did absolutely nothing, because there is no alteration in the rate of disappearance of these diseases from the vaccinations, at the time when the vaccinations first started to be administered.

A similar chart below it refers to tuberculosis and typhoid from 1900 to 1960, and again the line's a straight slopes downward, and you can see that the epidemics simply ran their course naturally, and are totally unaffected by the vaccination programs, but the medical industry wants you to believe that vaccines are what wipe out diseases and that is totally a bold-faced lie.

If you've never read the book, How To Lie With Statistics, by Daryl Huff, I strongly suggest you do because you will get a much better idea of how you've been tricked.

Now, I want to tell you about a much bigger lie that you've been fed. I want to talk to you about polio, because polio is a disease that most people think was the great success story of vaccinations. Let me read again from Walene James' book. Jonas Salk, the discoverer of the Salk polio vaccine has been called the 20th century miracle maker, and the savior of countless lives. We read glowing reports of the dramatic decrease in polio in the u.S. as a result of the Salk vaccine.

For instance, the Virginia State Department of Health distributes a folder which tells us that polio vaccines reduced the incidence of polio in the u.S. from 18,000 cases in 1954 to fewer than 20 in 1973-78. A recent article in Modern Maturity states that in 1953 there were 15,000 some odd cases of polio in the u.S. and by 1957 due to the Salk vaccine, the number had dropped to 2499.

However, during the 1962 Congressional hearings on HR10541, Dr. Bernard Greenberg, head of the Department of Biostatistics at the university of North Carolina, School of Public Health, testified that not only [now listen to this, folks...] not only did polio increase substantially after the introduction of mass and frequently compulsory immunization programs, but statistics were manipulated and statements made by the Public Health Service to give the opposite impression.

You have been lied to folks. The polio vaccine caused more polio than it protected people from. Moving on...

For instance, in 1957, the North Carolina Health Department made glowing claims for the efficacy of the Salk vaccine, showing how polio steadily decreased from 1953 to 1957. These figures were challenged by Dr. Fred Klenner who pointed out that it wasn't until 1955 that a single person in the state even received the polio vaccine injection.

Even then, the injections were administered on a very limited basis because of the number of polio cases resulting from the vaccine. It wasn't until 1956 that polio vaccinations assumed inspiring proportions. The 61% drop in polio cases in 1954 was credited to the Salk vaccine, when it wasn't even in the state yet. Nevertheless, by 1957, when the massive vaccination program had taken place, polio was again on the increase.

Digest that for a minute, folks, let Bill flip the tape over, and we'll be back in a minute......... Okay, back to the Salk vaccine.
Other ways polio statistics were manipulated to give the impression of Salk vaccine success follow:

    Redefinition of an epidemic. More cases were required to refer to polio as an epidemic after the introduction of the Salk vaccine. In other words, you needed 20 cases per hundred thousand to have an epidemic before the vaccine was introduced, and after the vaccine they changed that number to 35 cases per hundred thousand per year to require the definition of epidemic.
    Redefinition of the disease. In order to qualify for classification as paralytic polio mytolitis, the patient had to exhibit paralytic symptoms for at least 60 days after the onset of the disease.

Now that's after they started the vaccination programs, folks. Before the vaccination program started in 1954, the patient had to exhibit paralytic symptoms for only 24 hours. What this means folks, is that if you walked into a doctor's office before the vaccine was introduced, and you said, "Oh, I have paralytic symptoms here. I've had them for about 2 weeks." They'd say, "Oh, that's polio. You've had it for more than a day." But after the vaccine, if after the vaccine, you walked into that same doctor's office, and you say, "Oh, I've had these symptoms for 2 or 3 weeks, now." They'd say, "Oh, wait two months, then we can call it polio." That's how the statistics get manipulated, folks. Moving on...

Doctor Greenberg said, "This change in definition meant that in 1955 we started reporting a new disease, namely paralytic poliomyelitis, with a longer lasting paralysis.

The third way statistics were manipulated was mislabeling. After the introduction of the Salk vaccine, cocsacci virus and aseptic meningitis have been distinguished from paralytic poliomyelitis," explained Dr. Greenberg, "and in 1954 large numbers of these cases were undoubtedly mislabeled as paralytic polio." Now, another way of reducing the incidence of disease by way of semantics or statistical artifacts, as Dr. Greenberg calls it, is to simply reclassify the disease.

Now, I have my own version of this here, folks. From the Los Angeles County Health Index Morbidity and Mortality Reportable Disease Data, I'm looking at a chart of cases of viral or aseptic meningitis and polio from 1955 to 1966, and lo and behold, what do I find. From 1955 to 1966 cases of polio dropped from 273 cases to 5. Ah, but, the number of cases of aseptic meningitis from 1955 to 1966 increases in almost the same proportion from 50 cases to 256 cases. They simply changed the name, same disease, and you thought polio was wiped out at that point.

Now, folks, the reality is this. Diseases, like everything else in nature, follow cycles. They come in, they reach their peak and leave, and no vaccination program on Earth has ever been able to change that. Polio disappeared in Europe between 1940 and 1950 without any vaccination programs, whatsoever.

In 1958, Israel had a massive type 1 polio epidemic after mass immunizations. And from the same hearings on HR10541, that I talked about earlier, we find out that Massachusetts had a type 2 polio outbreak and there were more paralytic cases in people who were triple vaccinated than in the people who were unvaccinated. Surprise, surprise! You thought the vaccine protected you, didn't you? Well, most of those cases of polio came from the vaccination. And that's fact, folks. Even Jonas Salk has admitted it now that more than two-thirds of the polio in this country [then] came from his vaccine. From Coutler and Fisher's book, DPT: A Shot in The Dark, we learn:

There is a natural tendency for doctors to under-report whooping cough when it occurs in a vaccinated population, and to over report it when it appears in an unvaccinated population. Which means that if you go into a doctor's office and you are allegedly vaccinated, and you have whooping cough, they won't call it whooping cough. They'll call it something else, and that's how they keep all our statistics nice and safe and clean. Same thing's been done with measles, folks; reading from Walene James' book:

    From 1958 to 1966, the number of measles cases reported each year dropped from 800,000 to 200,000. The drug industry claimed this was due to vaccinations. However, there are some very interesting discrepancies. Number one, the incidence of measles had already been declining steadily for the past 100 years and was totally unaffected by the immunization programs for measles.
    It wasn't until 1967 that the live virus vaccine, which is presently used, was introduced, because the killed virus vaccine which came out in 1963 was found to be ineffective and harmful, and yet, the vaccine which was good, and which they alleged did the job, did not even come out during the time that they are trying to take credit for wiping out the diseases in.
    A survey of pediatricians in New York City revealed that only 3.2% of them were actually reporting measles cases to the Health Department, and
    in 1974 the Center for Disease Control determined that there were 36 cases of measles in all of Georgia. But the Georgia State Surveillance System reported 660 cases that same year. Folks, you can't believe anything you read, because every single statistic out there has been manipulated and twisted, and that's a fact that I can tell you unequivocally, from my own research. Let me read a little bit about rubella here:

A large proportion of children are found to be sero-negative (which means they show no evidence of immunity in blood tests) 4-5 years after receiving the rubella vaccination. In another study, 80% of army recruits who had been immunized against rubella, came down with the disease. Once again, folks, evidence that these vaccinations will not even protect you against the disease they are supposed to protect you from. And it goes on to say here that the same results were shown in a consecutive study that took place in an institution for the mentally retarded.

Now, could the real reason vaccination promise and performance seem so contradictory be that the vaccination premise itself is faulty? As stated earlier, the theory of vaccination postulates that the use of immunizing agents produces a mild form of the disease for which specific antibodies are formed that will protect the body when the real thing comes along. But as I mentioned earlier, it doesn't work that way and Dr. Alec Burton, who is another brave doctor out there, points out the following:

That there are children with what is called A Gamma Globulin Anemia [which means that they cannot produce antibodies], and yet these same children develop and recover from measles and other diseases as spontaneously as other children.

Now what this means is that there are children out there who can't produce antibodies. Nevertheless, antibodies are the things that vaccines are supposed to stimulate in you against the particular diseases they're designed for, and yet, as shown here by Dr. Alec Burton, even without those antibodies, you will get cured or you will naturally become healthy again after having this disease without any vaccination. So, folks, so much for the idea that vaccinations are the only way to protect you, and the basic premise that they are built on, namely stimulating antibodies, is totally wrong.

Okay. Another quote from Walene James' book. The mystery begins to unravel when we look at the work of Drs. Dettman and Kalikerinos. In one of their articles, they quote Dr. Wendall Bellfield of San Jose, California, who says the following. "Antibodies are not needed when the primary immunological defense which is leukocytes and interferon, etc. is functioning at maximum capacity.

Interferon production appears to occur only when the ascorbate level [and ascorbate is just a big word for vitamin C] and the primary defense components are at low levels, thereby permitting some viruses to survive the primary defense.

What this basically means, folks, is that the premise that vaccinations are built upon are totally false. Vaccinations are allegedly designed to stimulate antibody production for the specific diseases they're designed for, and yet, as Dr. Burton showed earlier, antibodies are not even necessary for your body to properly and effectively combat diseases.

In short, folks, this means that vaccines do not protect you against the diseases they are supposed to protect you from. Diseases, in this day and age have become self-fulfilling prophecy because doctors tend not to diagnose specific diseases if the subject has already been vaccinated against those specific diseases. Vaccinations, unquestionably, do not guarantee you any protection, their side effects are disastrous, and often worse than the disease, itself, and worse still, the premise that vaccines are built upon, are pure, unadulterated nonsense.

You've been taught that antibodies, are the little shock troops of your immune system, that they go out and kill all the nasty germs that are attacking you day in and day out, and the reality, however, is that antibody production is not your primary immunological defense, and that the idea of stimulating them by injecting you with poisons, serums, and free-floating genetic material, and all kinds of poisonous agents and stabilizers and vaccines, is completely absurd.

Okay, let me read you a little bit about immunity here, because it's going to become important over the next few minutes in what I'm talking about. When immunity to a disease is acquired naturally, [and again, from Walene James' book] the possibility of reinfection is only 3.2%, according to journalist Marion Thompson. If the immunity comes from a vaccination, however, the chance of reinfection is 80%.

Did you hear that, folks? Eighty percent chance of reinfection from unnaturally acquired immunity from vaccinations. Dr. William Howard Hay has pointed out that in any epidemic of communicable disease, only a small percentage of the population contracts the disease. Most people are naturally immune, so if a man who has been vaccinated does not contract the disease that really proves absolutely nothing. If he had not been vaccinated, the chances are he would not have contracted the disease, anyway. We have no way of knowing. Further,

Just because you give somebody a vaccine and maybe get an antibody reaction doesn't mean a thing. The only true antibodies, of course, are those you get naturally.

And that's from Dr. Dettman in an interview with Jay Patrick. Natural diseases are a lot safer than acute artificial complications from vaccinations. And that's a quote from Dr. Robert Mendelsohn, whom I mentioned earlier.

However, perhaps the strongest statement against the effectiveness of artificial immunization comes from Dr. William Howard Hay. It is nonsense to think that you can inject pus, which is most of the serums that we're talking about, into a little child, and in any way improve its health. There is no such thing as immunization, but we sell it under that name. If we could, by any means, build up a natural resistance to disease through these artificial means, I would applaud it to the echo, but we cannot do it.

The body has its own methods of defense. These defense methods depend upon the vitality of the body at the time. If it is vital enough, the body will resist all infections. If it isn't vital enough, it won't and you can't change the vitality of the body for the better by introducing poisons of any kind into it.

And those poisons of any kind he's referring to are vaccines. Vaccinations are poisons, they do not protect you, they are weakening our immune systems, and my research indicates that allergies are the direct result of large scale immunization programs foisted upon us in the last fifty years, and isn't it weird how right now, there is such a big push on to force every child and every person in the u.S. to be vaccinated for all kinds of diseases. Thanks, Bill Clinton. Now, be logical, folks. The only person you put at risk, even by the medical industry's own stupid logic is yourself, if you refuse to be vaccinated. Think about it; if everyone else is vaccinated, then they shouldn't get the disease, right? Then the only person that you're putting at risk by not being vaccinated is you. Makes sense. Then how does the government dare to justify forced vaccination?

I can assure you that even without any intentionally created diseases, many Americans will be dying over the next ten to fifteen years, and AIDS will be blamed. Be careful.

Wouldn't it be ironic if AIDS as we know it, did not exist at all. >From my own research I can tell you with complete confidence that the vaccines being foisted upon us can weaken our immune systems to the degree that AIDS-like symptoms and reactions will be all too common with or without AIDS. Do you remember what I read earlier about the genetic material being introduced into our bloodstreams from vaccinations, and producing auto-immune diseases. Folks, we don't even need a government-created disease to have massive epidemic rates of auto-immune failure, because that's what these vaccines are promoting.

Now you've been conned another way, and this is by the word virus. Because you think you know what a virus is, and you do not. Rest assured viruses are not what you think they are, and I'm gonna quote you a little bit more from Walene , to give you a hint.

All living organisms, including bacteria and viruses contain genetic material, which is DNA and RNA. In fact, live viruses themselves are genetic messages.

Live bacteria and viruses can transfer their genetic information through animal cells, including human cells which are taken up by other cells in the body. Although the body generally will not make antibodies against its own tissue, it appears that slight modifications of the antigenic character of tissues will cause it to appear foreign to the immune system, and thus a fair target for antibody production. [Remember what I said earlier, about how vaccines give us genetic material that can incorporate into our cells.]

Thus vaccines lay the foundation for auto-immune diseases and other disorders of the immune system such as rheumatoid arthritis, rheumatic fever, lupus, sclerodema, and a lot of other nasty diseases. It is reasonable to assume that our contemporary "epidemic of allergies" has at least some of its roots in the practice of vaccination.

And again, that's from Walene James.

Now beware, folks, I have saved the best for last. The Clinton Administration has buckled under the pressure to implement a stepped up mass vaccination program. Every day I see stories of the various state laws forcing Americans to inject these poisons into their veins and don't buckle to the pressure, because you don't have to because no one, absolutely no one, can force you to inject anything into your blood, and no one can force you or your children to be vaccinated. I've avoided vaccinations, and you can, too.

They will threaten you with not letting your kids go to school, or not get a job, or anything else they can think of, but it is all, excuse this folks, it's all bull$#@!. However, if enough people do not speak up now, we may all be forced to take in these horrible poisons.

Often, all it takes to avoid vaccinations, is a simple form you can type up by yourself, referring to Senate bill 942 #3380, under the title, Exemption From Immunizations, and let me read that bill right now, it's really interesting. 3380. Immunization of a person shall not be required for admission to a school or other institution if the guardian parent or adult has assumed responsibility for his or her custody or care in the case of a minor, or the person seeking admission themselves, files with the governing authority a letter or affidavit stating that such vaccination is contrary to his or her belief.

The other thing you can do is go to your doctor and ask for a vaccination guarantee. Basically, what you're saying in this little form is that, you're guaranteeing me that this vaccination will protect me and not cause any nasty side effects, or you will give me a million dollars. And if a doctor refuses to sign that you can refuse to get the vaccination.

Now, even better, there's a book written by a lawyer who's done a lot in this area and has a lot of first-hand experience in circumventing vaccination laws. It's called, Dangers of Compulsory Immunizations; How to Avoid Them Legally, by Tom Finn.

Your best bet is also to get a copy of a little booklet called, Vaccinations Do Not Protect, by Eleanor McBean. Get a pen, folks. You won't find these books in Barnes and Noble.

In the McBean book are the forms that I mentioned earlier. It'll be four bucks, or maybe ten bucks, if you get both of them. You can even learn how to travel abroad without getting vaccinated, folks.

Get educated and let your representatives in Congress know, and let your family doctors know that you know what's going on, because you have to protect yourself and your kids.

Your congressmen and doctors may not have any clue about any of this, and you have to educate them, because most doctors are woefully ignorant of these things, and have also, like you and me, abdicated their responsibilities for most of their life.

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## DGambler

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to donnay again.

Good post.

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## PaulConventionWV

> You've misunderstood. NOT using vaccines will cause horrific problems, like it has in the middle ages with the various multi-million death plagues humanity suffered.


Oh, yeah.  Vaccines would have solved the Black Plague.  After all, hindsight is 20/20.

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## PaulConventionWV

> It's not the vaccine that "carries" the virus. It's the fact that being vaccinated, they're immune to the virus. The people that came by your place got the virus somewhere else and brought it with them.
> 
> As soon as your kids get in the real world they'll catch all kinds of diseases because they're not vaccinated.


Makes you wonder how the HELL people survived before vaccines were invented, huh?

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## donnay

> Oh, yeah.  Vaccines would have solved the Black Plague.  After all, hindsight is 20/20.


The black plague was in the 14th century when there were no vaccines.  At that time, people had no idea of the causes of diseases and no idea that lack of hygiene and the lack of sanitation caused the spread of bacteria.

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## PaulConventionWV

> The black plague was in the 14th century when there were no vaccines.  At that time, people had no idea of the causes of diseases and no idea that lack of hygiene and the lack of sanitation caused the spread of bacteria.


I know.

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## RonRules

*Dear Anti-Vaxxer: Yes, I do the research*

http://skeweddistribution.com/2012/1...-the-research/

October 1, 2012
One of the most frequently-sighted* comments from the anti-vax crowd to those who understand the safety and benefits of vaccinations is to “do the research”. It is never really clear what they mean by this, because they say it to nurses, MDs, DOs, and others with extensive training in healthcare and public health, such as people with Master’s Degrees in Public Health and PhDs in sciences related to human health. I have addressed the arrogance of this position before in this blog post.

So I’d like to take a moment to explain my story to anti-vaxxers in the hopes that they will understand that neither myself nor my colleagues are “brainwashed”, or “just swallowing what Big Pharma tells us”. First and foremost, I know very few scientists who enjoy just floating down the stream of science without making some waves of their own. We are trained during graduate school gestation to start questioning, criticizing, and picking apart the literature. We usually begin reading an article with the switch flipped to “skeptical” and not “thispaperistotallyconvincing”.  So let me tell you, anti-vaxxer, I have spent some time questioning vaccines. Yes, you read that right.

When we decided to start a family, I felt that I needed to make sure that vaccines were as safe and effective as was generally claimed. I then proceeded to make an error for which I berate others on a daily basis: I Googled. And that Google search led me to understand how tremendously powerful the anti-vaccine message is if you have no recourse to understand the vast swathes of misinformation used to craft that message. It appeals to our emotional centers, not our rational centers. I have used the analogy of plane crashes and fear of flying here before, but will expand on it more below.

When there is a plane crash, it is all over the news, and it’s terrifying. But it is also so rare that it is essentially a negligible risk, and we fly anyway; in fact, over 640 million people safely zipped through the skies at 500 mph and 25,000 feet in the United States during June 2011-June 2012. Yet, when a plane crashes, even highly-trained accident investigators are not immune to serious psychological reactions.  Anti-vax sites are very similar to a media story of a plane crash. They highlight an exceedingly rare, highly emotional event and conclude that because of these rare events, vaccination itself is not safe for the general population. In fact, both flying and vaccination are safe; yet hordes of people are terrified of these things, against all rational thought.

I was able to get past the emotional appeals of the anti-vax movement because I am lucky enough to have the training and access to read and understand peer-reviewed scientific papers. I must note that there are huge numbers of people without formal training who are also able to do the same, and/or who listen to the person in whom they have entrusted their child’s care: their pediatrician. Regardless, after being electrocuted by the anti-vax movement, I started reading the literature on PubMed and found that the “science” often spouted by anti-vaxxers was at its very best sketchy, but more often frankly disingenuous. And this made me pretty angry, actually.

What I want to the anti-vaxxer to know is that I have never stopped researching. I check the literature as it comes out and am reassessing things constantly. This is an argument that nobody wants to be on the wrong side of, including me. I check myself often. I ask myself, “Is it possible that HPV vaccine really is causing whatever disease the anti-vaxxers are claiming this week?”. Then I go into PubMed and read the latest research. Thus far, I have remained convinced that vaccinations are safe and effective. But I continue to “do the research” and “question everything”. So please, do not insult me and tell me that my colleagues and I don’t. We have, and we do, and the science remains on our side, not yours.

*Here is a challenge for the anti-vaxxers out there. Try, for one day, to pretend like you understand that vaccines are safe and effective. Relax for a moment and let the truth of the science wash over you. Read the studies. Challenge your own beliefs. Open your mind to the possibility. I did it for your side, and now I ask you to try it for your kids.*

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## Eagles' Wings

Check out the book:

The Solution: Homeoprophylaxis:  The Vaccine Alternative
A Parent's Guide To Educating Your Child's Immune System

By Cilla Whatcott
www.familyhomeopathycare.com

BRAND NEW BOOK - CAME OUT IN 2012

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## RonRules

> The Solution: Homeoprophylaxis:  The Vaccine Alternative
> A Parent's Guide To Educating Your Child's Immune System


*Geez Louise, how many people do you want to kill today?*

http://skepticbarista.wordpress.com/...us-homeopathy/

*This is Dangerous Homeopathy, for serious diseases and with serious consequences.*

http://www.antivaxxers.com/?p=3671

*Why Homeoprophylaxis is Dangerous*
The danger lies not in the homeopathic products used, but in the false sense of security homeoprophylaxis provides. To appreciate this fully, *one needs to understand the indisputable fact that homeopathy does not work*. *There is no plausible mechanism by which it can work.* Despite this, homeopathy has undergone extensive trials and be shown to work no better than a placebo.

By relying on homeoprophylaxis you are at just as much risk of contracting the disease as not being vaccinated at all, you will suffer the effects of the disease as if you had not been vaccinated at all, and you will be as contagious to others as if you had not been vaccinated at all.

Homeoprophylaxis has no effect whatsoever in protecting people against infectious diseases. *Please, do not rely on homeoprophylaxis.*

Jenny McCarthy's nonsense has helped cause 1,016 to die.
http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.co...ount/Home.html

Should I start the Louise Body Count page?

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## DGambler

If you choose to vaccinate, always keep a written record of exactly which shots/vaccines you or your child have received, including the manufacturers name and vaccine lot number. Write down and describe in detail any serious health problems that develop after vaccination and keep vaccination records in a file you can access easily.

It is important to be able to recognize an adverse reaction and seek appropriate medical attention, as well as reporting  a vaccine adverse event with federal health officials at the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS), who monitor vaccines after they have been licensed. Information provided to VAERS, may also help identify high risk factors that make some individuals more vulnerable to suffering vaccine reactions.  To learn more about injury compensation and filing an injury claim, click here.

If you or your child experiences any of the symptoms listed below in the hours, days or weeks following vaccination, it should be reported to VAERS.  Some vaccine reaction symptoms include: 

Pronounced swelling, redness, heat or hardness at the site of the injection;Body rash or hives;Shock/collapse;High pitched screaming or persistent crying for hours;Extreme sleepiness or long periods of unresponsiveness;High fever (over 103 F)Twitching or jerking of the body, arm, leg or head;Crossing of eyes;Weakness or paralysis of any part of the body;Loss of eye contact or awareness or social withdrawal;Loss of ability to roll over, sit up or stand up;Vision or hearing loss;Restlessness, hyperactivity or inability to concentrate;Sleep disturbances that change wake/sleep pattern;Head banging or onset of repetitive movements (flapping, rubbing, rocking, spinning);Joint pain;Muscle weakness;Disabling fatigue;Loss of memory;Onset of chronic ear or respiratory infections;Violent or persistent diarrhea or chronic constipation;Breathing problems (asthma);Excessive bleeding (thrombocytopenia) or anemia.
There are other symptoms, which may indicate that you or your child has suffered a vaccine reaction. Not all symptoms that occur following vaccination are caused by the vaccine(s) recently received, but it cannot be automatically concluded that symptoms which do occur are NOT related to the vaccine. Therefore, it is important for your doctor to write down all serious health problems that occur after vaccination in the permanent medical record and to report ALL serious symptoms or dramatic change in physical, mental or emotional behavior that does occur following vaccination to VAERS.  It is also important that re-vaccination does not continue until it has been determined that the serious health problem which developed after vaccination was not causally related to the vaccination(s). Continued vaccination in the presence of serious health deterioration could lead to vaccine injury or death.

Although it has been the law since 1986 for doctors and other vaccine providers to report hospitalizations, injuries, deaths and serious health problems following vaccination to VAERS, *it is estimated that less than 10 percent*, perhaps less than one percent, *of all vaccine-related health problems are ever reported*. If your doctor will not report a serious health problem that you or child experienced after vaccination to VAERS, you have the right to make the vaccine adverse event report to VAERS yourself.

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## Zippyjuan

It should be noted that the side effects noted above are rare with irritation, redness, or soreness at the vaccination site being the most commonly experienced. 

And is it notes, 



> Not all symptoms that occur following vaccination are caused by the vaccine(s) recently received,

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## RonRules

If you choose to not vaccinate, always keep a written record of exactly how many of your children have died, their age, gender, etc.

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## farreri

> If you choose to not vaccinate, always keep a written record of exactly how many of your children have died, their age, gender, etc.


How many people die per year due to science-based medicine?

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## RonRules

> How many people die per year due to science-based medicine?


Much, MUCH more are saved.

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## DGambler

> If you choose to not vaccinate, always keep a written record of exactly how many of your children have died, their age, gender, etc.


According to VAERS, ~100 people have died this year due to vaccination, how many have died due to non-vaccination?

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## farreri

> Much, MUCH more are saved.


That wasn't my question.  My question involves a number for an answer.

Here it is again:

How many people die per year due to science-based medicine?

Don't be shy.  Just post that estimated number.

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## RonRules

> According to VAERS, ~100 people have died this year due to vaccination, how many have died due to non-vaccination?


"VAERS data contains coincidental events and those truly caused by vaccines."

This is a public filled database. It's useless because for Anti-Vaxers that fill it up with coincidental reports.

----------


## RonRules

> how many have died due to non-vaccination?


http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.co...ount/Home.html

----------


## farreri

> http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.co...ount/Home.html


How many people die per year due to science-based medicine?

----------


## helmuth_hubener

RonRules, many of the _people you quote_ are very reasonable and intelligent people with useful things to say.  SkewedDistribution, for instance (although he is, naturally, not a libertarian instead politically conventional, like most people, and so he advocates _compulsory_ vaccination) seems reasonable.

_You_, however, do not seem to be reaching the level of the scientists you quote, nor to be at all near it.  You seem to be a pure blind partisan, screaming a certain agenda from the top of your lungs.  That is not a useful mindset in science.  You certainly will not learn anything, and its unlikely any of the targets of your screams will learn anything either.

Myself, I largely agree with you.  Vaccination seems to be safe.  However, you somehow decided I did not agree with you _enough_ and thus am an enemy of your party line and so you accused me of posting junk and perhaps other things -- I do not keep track, because such false accusations and name-calling are so silly and just a waste of time.  You did not address my last reply to that.  Perhaps you should.  Or you can go on screaming.  Whichever.

Also, I wonder what you think the boundaries of gov't's role should be, if you truly believe that forcing people to make good medical decisions is within the boundaries of that role.

----------


## RonRules

I'm not a doctor, but I do have the common sense enough to clearly see that vaccines did and still do an enormous amount of good, with negligible negative effects.

On the other hand we have dozens of charlatans, do gooders, busy bodies, incompetents, including some MD failures, with large megaphones pretending to know how science and medicine works and what's important. 

For example, trace elements are just that. Just minute traces of atoms like the traces of every element you encounter every day in everything you touch and ingest.

Find out if there are trace elements of arsenic in your next Big Mac. Of course there are traces, but it's not a problem.

It's very dangerous to let these people distort scientific truth without opposition.

That's all I'm discussing here. I have no other motive and Big Pharma does not pay me.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> How many people die per year due to science-based medicine?


For that to be a useful number, we need something to compare it to.  How many (percent of patients) die from alternative medicines or from not going to a doctor? Can you help us out on that?  Thanks for looking for the info.

----------


## donnay

*Vaccines have been based on medical fraud for over a hundred years*

Sunday, April 29, 2012 by: *PF Louis*

The concept of vaccinating to immunize began in 1796, when British apothecary (pharmacist) Edward Jenner inserted cowpox pus under the skin of an eight year old boy. Jenner based his experiment on an unsubstantiated rumor that anyone who had experienced cowpox would be immune to smallpox.

Over the next couple of years, Jenner vaccinated others with cowpox to immunize them against smallpox. Without any actual proof of efficacy and safety, Jenner impressed King George III enough with a bogus immunization guarantee that he was awarded the equivalent of today's $500,000.

Thus, Jenner was the first medical professional to administer diseased matter as medication to a healthy person and receive a substantial financial award. He was also the first to constantly denounce vaccination detractors successfully. He was protecting both his ego and large public purse.

Many health professionals throughout the 19th Century knew that there had been several cases of smallpox among those with cowpox histories. Jenner's premise was flawed.

This was actually the beginning of a tradition that is carried on by today's vaccinators. Come up with a bogus solution to prevent a disease, make a bundle of cash, and shut down reasonable arguments from those who know immunization by vaccination doesn't work safely or effectively.

England's incidents of smallpox after vaccination rose steadily from five percent in the beginning to 95% by 1895. There was even a serious epidemic around 1872, one year after smallpox vaccinations were decreed mandatory in the UK. The mortality rate among smallpox victims also shot up five fold around that time.

Despite intelligent protests with obvious facts and figures disproving efficacy, and proving harm from toxic materials and viruses contained in vaccines that endanger natural immunity, the inoculation for immunization premise has been maintained.

Protecting the industry against truth by attacking reasonable dissenters viciously has resulted in vaccine industry revenue of $17 billion annually today. This doesn't include revenue from doctors' visits for vaccinations and resulting ill health from them.

The vaccinators' tactics of suppressing scientific data from concerned professionals has become more mafia like. Sincere medical professionals who register health concerns over vaccines are severely punished and slandered by the medical mafia owned mainstream media.

The truth about vaccines and disease outbreaks -all hidden from public view
A 2012 study led by Dr. David Witt, an infectious disease specialist at the San Rafael, California Kaiser Permanente Medical Center concluded that whooping cough occurs more among vaccinated children than children not vaccinated.

In 2010, a mumps outbreak occurred among 1000 children in upper New Jersey and lower New York. Almost 80% of them had been vaccinated with the MMR (measles, mumps & rubella) vaccine.

Throughout the 1980s, official agencies reported several outbreaks of measles occurring among children who had been vaccinated in various locations including an Illinois junior high and high school, a Massachusetts high school, a region in France, and a rural area near Helisinki, Finland.

Both USA schools had well over 90% vaccinated against measles. The vaccinators claim a 90% vaccination rate among any specific population guarantees herd immunity for that population. This bogus claim serves to create more revenue while blaming non-vaccinators for endangering humanity.

Meanwhile, despite the fact that only five percent of vaccine adverse events get reported to the "voluntary" FDA's vaccine adverse event reporting system (VAERS), there are many serious adverse events recorded and many more that seep through the cracks to vaccine concerned internet sites.

Thank goodness for the few MDs and others who dare speak out despite the danger it potentially puts them in. It's up to us to learn from them and just say no to vaccinations.

Sources for this article include:

http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org

http://www.naturalnews.com/033399_vaccines_measles.html

http://www.naturalnews.com/028142_mumps_vaccines.html

http://www.naturalnews.com

http://www.naturalnews.com/023080.html

http://www.naturalnews.com/022400.html

----------


## DGambler

> http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.co...ount/Home.html


So, if I trust her and the CDC numbers, it's 200 per year.

Back to VAERS, it's being under-reported by 10%.

We're never going to convince one another, with that, I'm done... You think I'm a busy body and surprise, I think you're a busy body... 

You refuse to negotiate, I approached it for my children that I can make the best choice and came up with my own schedule.  Not every vaccine is given and a modified schedule is used.  

Sad, because I appreciate your posts on other topics.

This is what concerns a lot of us:

----------


## RonRules

This should straighten out everything, for the rationals among you. If you don't want to read through 82 pages and your want to get to the real facts ASAP:

*Your Baby’s Best Shot*
http://skepticallyspeaking.ca/episod...abys-best-shot



Don't miss the second part:
Skepchick.org founder Rebecca Watson, talks about pseudoscience that’s targeted and marketed specifically at women. (Everything you'd want to know about your Va JJ and female intuition)

----------


## Zippyjuan

> So, if I trust her and the CDC numbers, it's 200 per year.
> 
> Back to VAERS, it's being under-reported by 10%.
> 
> We're never going to convince one another, with that, I'm done... You think I'm a busy body and surprise, I think you're a busy body... 
> 
> You refuse to negotiate, I approached it for my children that I can make the best choice and came up with my own schedule.  Not every vaccine is given and a modified schedule is used.  
> 
> Sad, because I appreciate your posts on other topics.
> ...


If it is 200 cases and that is underreported by ten percent that makes the actual number more like 220- out of millions of vaccine doses administered in the country every year. That would hardly qualify as "deadly" and instead qualifies it as an extremely rare event. 

Some quick, bulk numbers.  About four million kids born every year. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogra..._United_States That would come to about 24 million aged six or under. Times 36 vaccines makes 864 milion doses of vaccines given by that age (assuming all were vaccinated- lets say 80% were so that brings it down to 691 million doses.  220 deaths a year times six years (to use the odds per year times the first six years when they are getting their childhood vaccines) makes 1,320 out of roughly 700 million vaccines administered. Very, very rare. (0.0000018% chance). 

What are the chances of dying from say the measles if you get it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles



> Between the years 1987 and 2000, the case fatality rate across the United States was *three measles-attributable deaths per 1000 cases, or 0.3%.[*4] In underdeveloped nations with high rates of malnutrition and poor healthcare, fatality rates have been as high as 28%.[4] In immunocompromised patients (e.g. people with AIDS) the fatality rate is approximately 30%.[5]


Three per 1000 is 160 MILLION times the risk of the vaccine as far as death risks are concerned. 

Whooping Cough:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pertussis



> Symptoms are initially mild, and then develop into severe coughing fits, which produce the namesake high-pitched "whoop" sound in infected babies and children when they inhale air after coughing.[2] The coughing stage lasts approximately six weeks before subsiding.
> 
> Prevention by vaccination is of primary importance because treatment is of little benefit to the person infected.[3] However, antibiotics shorten the duration of infectiousness and are thus recommended.[3] It is estimated that *the disease currently affects 48.5 million people yearly, resulting in nearly 295,000 deaths.[*4]


That is 0.006% or over 3000 times more likely than a vaccine death. 

Diptheria:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphtheria



> Diphtheria is a serious disease, with *fatality rates between 5% and 10%.* In children under five years and adults over 40 years, the fatality rate may be as much as 20%.[6] Outbreaks, though very rare, still occur worldwide, even in developed nations, such as Germany and Canada. After the breakup of the former Soviet Union in the late 1980s, vaccination rates in its constituent countries fell so low that there was an explosion of diphtheria cases. In 1991, there were 2,000 cases of diphtheria in the USSR. By 1998, according to Red Cross estimates, there were as many as 200,000 cases in the Commonwealth of Independent States, with 5,000 deaths.[13] This was so great an increase that diphtheria was cited in the Guinness Book of World Records as "most resurgent disease"


Point being that the risks of dying if you get the diseases are vastly higher than your risks from dying due to the vaccine.

----------


## Danke

bump for pochy1776

----------


## KingNothing

Also bump to draw attention to how badly Zippy owned the silly antivax brigade.

----------


## KingNothing

It should be noted that Donnay, who uses every excuse to post a full article from a crackpot website, has not responded to Zippy's last post in this thread, dated several months ago.


EDIT:  Still no response from Donnay.  Imagine that.

----------


## KingNothing

Bump because the nut job brigade has not responded to Zippy's post.

----------


## UWDude

The causes of M.S. are unknown.
Appears to be an autoimmune disease.
tends to occur most in the temperate areas of the map
aka the most industrialized areas
aka the most vaccinated populations.
A cocktail of vaccines can't possibly cause auto-immune disorders, could it?
No, scientists say, let's see instead if it is because of lack of vitamin D!

It's not one vaccine I am worried about.
It is the never ending, and growing cocktail.
Not to mention the breeding of super-bugs.
But please, take your flu shots.
In the end, we'll see who the fools were.

You guys blew your wad on swine flu.
Herd immunity was missed by 33%.
Nothing happened.

----------


## cbrons

> The causes of M.S. are unknown.
> Appears to be an autoimmune disease.
> tends to occur most in the temperate areas of the map
> aka the most industrialized areas
> aka the most vaccinated populations.
> A cocktail of vaccines can't possibly cause auto-immune disorders, could it?
> No, scientists say, let's see instead if it is because of lack of vitamin D!
> 
> It's not one vaccine I am worried about.
> ...


The causes of MS are known. Its a demyelinating disease and it is autoimmune. 

Vaccines have nothing to do with MS or autism.

----------


## UWDude

> The causes of MS are known. Its a demyelinating disease and it is autoimmune. 
> 
> Vaccines have nothing to do with MS or autism.



No.  The causes of M.S. are not known.  Let's see how long we can nut-uh and uh-huh until you finally look it up and turn red.

----------


## donnay

> It should be noted that Donnay, who uses every excuse to post a full article from a crackpot website, has not responded to Zippy's last post in this thread, dated several months ago.
> 
> 
> EDIT:  Still no response from Donnay.  Imagine that.



KingKnowsNothing here's a stat for you just on the flu shot.  

*4,250% Increase in Fetal Deaths Reported to VAERS After Flu Shot Given to Pregnant Women*
http://vactruth.com/2012/11/23/flu-s...s-fetal-death/


The CDC's own website is definitely sending out mixed messages to expectant mothers!

_"Avoid exposure to toxic substances and chemicals – such as cleaning solvents, lead and mercury, some insecticides, and paint. Pregnant women should avoid exposure to paint fumes."_ 

However, inject those toxins that are in vaccines right into the bloodstream--yes sireee!  

As I pointed out in an earlier thread-- *"Note that only 1 to 10% of adverse reactions to vaccines are actually reported."*

----------


## donnay

> The causes of MS are known. Its a demyelinating disease and it is autoimmune. 
> 
> Vaccines have nothing to do with MS or autism.


Ah but there is a connection between people who use aspartame and Monosodium Glutamate and MS.  Not to mention, MSG is an ingredient put in some vaccines.


Sources:
http://www.whale.to/b/deagle_asp.html
http://www.truthinlabeling.org/Blayl...7sWarning.html
http://www.msreversed.com/msg.html
http://food-nutrition.knoji.com/the-...d-your-health/
http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp...ns_warning.htm
http://www.infiniteunknown.net/2012/...eo/#more-51369
http://www.janethull.com/newsletter/...ink_packet.php

----------


## Professor8000

I would like to point out that doctors have always said that building a natural immunity to viruses has always been superior to gaining immunity via vaccination. I've never gotten a flu shot and have only caught the flu once in my entire life. It sucked for about 2 days and then I was over it and I've never had a problem with it again. On the rare occasions I do get sick, it's usually cleared up within 12 hours. I've looked into it and it turns out that good nutrition and decent hygiene may have a better effect on the immune response than vaccines. I'm not going to criticize vaccines, but I will say that industrialized countries are probably doing better because of the fact that they have better food and the people are more likely to scrub their asses on a regular basis. I don't really care what kind of medical choices you make for your children, but one of the reasons I have a gun is to enforce mine and my children's right to informed consent.

----------


## ClydeCoulter

> I would like to point out that doctors have always said that building a natural immunity to viruses has always been superior to gaining immunity via vaccination. I've never gotten a flu shot and have only caught the flu once in my entire life. It sucked for about 2 days and then I was over it and I've never had a problem with it again. On the rare occasions I do get sick, it's usually cleared up within 12 hours. I've looked into it and it turns out that good nutrition and decent hygiene may have a better effect on the immune response than vaccines. I'm not going to criticize vaccines, but I will say that industrialized countries are probably doing better because of the fact that they have better food and the people are more likely to scrub their asses on a regular basis. I don't really care what kind of medical choices you make for your children, but one of the reasons I have a gun is to enforce mine and my children's *right to informed consent*.


^^^That is the deal^^^

I posted on an article once, many months back, that was pro-some vaccine that was being pushed in Texas (Perry?) for some VD but it was causing really bad permanent side effects on a few girls/women.  My stand was that it was not worth one innocent girl being harmed in order to forcefully protect any number of those that were willing to "chance it" by being promiscuous.  Let it be voluntary and those that think the risk is worth it can take it, but do not harm the innocent.

----------


## KingNothing

> KingKnowsNothing here's a stat for you just on the flu shot.  
> 
> *4,250% Increase in Fetal Deaths Reported to VAERS After Flu Shot Given to Pregnant Women*
> http://vactruth.com/2012/11/23/flu-s...s-fetal-death/
> 
> 
> The CDC's own website is definitely sending out mixed messages to expectant mothers!
> 
> _"Avoid exposure to toxic substances and chemicals – such as cleaning solvents, lead and mercury, some insecticides, and paint. Pregnant women should avoid exposure to paint fumes."_ 
> ...



So that article being bereft of actual science and any statistical context does not set off alarm bells in your head?  How can you not see that it was written by someone with an agenda just to produce hysteria

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Bump because the nut job brigade has not responded to Zippy's post.


Easy pardner. Be respectful.

----------


## cubical

> Bump because the nut job brigade has not responded to Zippy's post.


Why are you so mad? Its an internet message board and you seem to be taking it personally.

----------


## donnay

> So that article being bereft of actual science and any statistical context does not set off alarm bells in your head?  How can you not see that it was written by someone with an agenda just to produce hysteria


LOL!!!  Look at the references!!!  You obviously have a reading comprehension problem.  You only look at what YOU want to see.  Besides, what you are telling me is that the other side has unbiased science to prove their theories?  Seriously?

----------


## Zippyjuan

> KingKnowsNothing here's a stat for you just on the flu shot.  
> 
> *4,250% Increase in Fetal Deaths Reported to VAERS After Flu Shot Given to Pregnant Women*
> http://vactruth.com/2012/11/23/flu-s...s-fetal-death/
> 
> 
> The CDC's own website is definitely sending out mixed messages to expectant mothers!
> 
> _"Avoid exposure to toxic substances and chemicals – such as cleaning solvents, lead and mercury, some insecticides, and paint. Pregnant women should avoid exposure to paint fumes."_ 
> ...


What does that 4,250% increase really mean?  It sure sounds like a scary number (and that is why it is emphasized) but what are the real numbers?  How big is the problem really?  From a level of how many cases to what number now?  

From the link provided:



> “In addition, because of the order of magnitude increase in fetal-loss report rates, from 6.8 fetal loss reports per million pregnant women vaccinated in the single-dose 2008/2009 season to 77.8 in the two-dose 2009/2010 season,


So we went from 6.8 cases in a million people to 77.8 cases in a million.  Percentagewise- a big increase.  But in actual numbers,  not a big increase.  It is still  a very rare event.  This is why they hide the totals and only emphasize the percent.   

Having the flu during pregnancy is riskier. 
http://www.abc.net.au/health/library...08/1831345.htm



> Pregnant women. Some studies have suggested that women in mid to late pregnancy *may be up to nine times more likely to die* from the flu because pregnancy temporarily reduces the effectiveness of the immune system. Together with the increased demands placed upon the body by pregnancy itself, this effect also means that *the illness can last up to three times longer than normal*. In Australia, vaccination against influenza is recommended for women who will be in the second or third trimester of pregnancy during the influenza season.


And two things to note about the VAERS reports.  One is that *anybody* (don't even have to be a doctor) can file one. Two- even if a report is filed, it is not required that there be any proof of any actual link between the reported event and the vaccination. 

http://vaers.hhs.gov/about/faqs



> *Who reports to VAERS?*
> 
> *Anyone can file a VAERS report*, including health care providers, manufacturers, and vaccine recipients. The majority of VAERS reports are sent in by vaccine manufacturers (37%) and health care providers (36%). The remaining reports are obtained from state immunization programs (10%), vaccine recipients (or their parent/guardians, 7%) and other sources (10%). Vaccine recipients or their parents or guardians are encouraged to seek the help of their health care professional in filling out the VAERS form. Each report provides valuable information that is added to the VAERS database. Accurate and complete reporting of post-vaccination events supplies the information needed for evaluation of vaccine safety. The CDC and FDA use VAERS information to ensure the safest strategies of vaccine use and to further reduce the rare risks associated with vaccines.
> 
> [top]
> 
> *What can be reported to VAERS?*
> 
> VAERS seeks reports of any clinically significant medical event that occurs after vaccination, *even if the reporter cannot be certain that the event was caused by the vaccine*. CDC/ISO and FDA review adverse reports; VAERS has identified important signals that after further research resulted in changes to vaccine recommendations. VAERS encourages the reporting of any clinically significant adverse event that occurs after the administration of any vaccine licensed in the United States. *You should report adverse events even if you are unsure whether a vaccine caused the event.*





> *Are all adverse events reported to VAERS caused by vaccines?*
> 
> *No.* VAERS receives reports of many adverse events that occur after vaccination. *Some occur coincidentally following vaccination, while others may be caused by vaccination.* Studies help determine if a vaccine really caused an adverse event. *Just because an adverse event happened after a person received a vaccine does not mean the vaccine caused the adverse event.* Other factors, such as the person's medical history and other medicines the person took near the time of the vaccination, may have caused the adverse event. It is important to remember that many adverse events reported to VAERS may not be caused by vaccines.  Although VAERS can rarely provide definitive evidence of causal associations between vaccines and particular risks, its unique role as a national spontaneous reporting system enables the early detection of signals that can then be more rigorously investigated.


so people need to be careful when trying to use information taken from VAERS reports and trying to show cause and effect or to try to extrapolate the information to the "real world" of everybody.

----------


## KingNothing

> LOL!!!  Look at the references!!!  You obviously have a reading comprehension problem.  You only look at what YOU want to see.  Besides, what you are telling me is that the other side has unbiased science to prove their theories?  Seriously?



The article was awful.  It was alarmist, manipulative tripe.  It pushed the percentage increase to sound scary, instead of pushing the absolute numbers, and even then the negative effects, limited though they were, could not be conclusively linked to vaccines.

----------


## KingNothing

> Easy pardner. Be respectful.


Do stupid people deserve to be treated like intelligent people?  Do they deserve respect when the actions they endorse WILL kill children?

----------


## Zippyjuan

Hint- rather than say it sucked, try to show how it was wrong. Otherwise you are easier to ignore or dismiss. Calling names makes others want to dismiss you as well- even if you may be right.

----------


## KingNothing

> Hint- rather than say it sucked, try to show how it was wrong. Otherwise you are easier to ignore or dismiss.



These people should be smart enough to realize how the article tried to manipulate them.  Agenda-pushing articles often use  percentages when  the absolute numbers are completely non-threatening.  Donnay knows that.  And donnay also knows how VAERS reports are gathered and that they do not prove the vaccine to be the ultimate cause.  She is intentionally misreprsenting reality, and there is a possibility that people here will avoid vaccinating their children because of her obsfuscation.

----------


## Eagles' Wings

> These people should be smart enough to realize how the article tried to manipulate them.  Agenda-pushing articles often use  percentages when  the absolute numbers are completely non-threatening.  Donnay knows that.  And donnay also knows how VAERS reports are gathered and that they do not prove the vaccine to be the ultimate cause.  She is intentionally misreprsenting reality, and there is a possibility that people here will avoid vaccinating their children because of her obsfuscation.


Don't worry, KingNothing, we're not a bunch of sheeple here.  Donnay does not bring confusion.  Let's be honest - we all have an agenda.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> These people should be smart enough to realize how the article tried to manipulate them.  Agenda-pushing articles often use  percentages when  the absolute numbers are completely non-threatening.  Donnay knows that.  And donnay also knows how VAERS reports are gathered and that they do not prove the vaccine to be the ultimate cause.  She is intentionally misreprsenting reality, and there is a possibility that people here will avoid vaccinating their children because of her obsfuscation.


Actually I believe she genuinely believes that way- I have discussed the topic many times with her.  There is nothing you or I could say which will change her mind. From her perspective, it is you and I who are distorting things. She does not trust anything from official sources- government or industry.  Thus other sources must be true.  I just try to provide information for those who are not convinced.  Anti- vaxers use fear to try to make their point- and that can be an effective tool. Parents don't want to harm their children.  And one thing about the internet is that you can find lots of articles which re-inforce your beliefs- no matter what they are.  I try to present what facts I can and let people make up their own minds.

----------


## donnay

> The article was awful.  It was alarmist, manipulative tripe.  It pushed the percentage increase to sound scary, instead of pushing the absolute numbers, and even then the negative effects, limited though they were, could not be conclusively linked to vaccines.



Again, LOL!  Like these MSM articles are not alarming, manipulative tripe with a dash of melodrama?

*Insert melodramatic music--for more effect*  

*CDC: Whooping cough rising at alarming rate in US*

ATLANTA (AP)  The U.S. appears headed for its worst year for whooping cough in more than five decades, with the number of cases rising at an epidemic rate that experts say may reflect a problem with the effectiveness of the vaccine.

Nearly 18,000 cases have been reported so far  more than twice the number seen at this point last year, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said Thursday. At this pace, the number for the entire year will be the highest since 1959, when 40,000 illnesses were reported.

Nine children have died, and health officials called on adults  especially pregnant women and those who spend time around children  to get a booster shot as soon as possible.

(...)
http://news.yahoo.com/cdc-whooping-c...203023900.html


*Whooping Cough On the Rise*

 No longer a distant memory from the Great Depression ,whooping cough has made an alarming resurgence in the United States. Current infant vaccinations may no longer be enough, since immunity against the disease seems to wear off at adolescence, and the government is now considering a booster shot to help fight the often deadly illness.

Whooping cough, or pertussis, is a highly contagious bacterial infection characterized by violent coughing fits, gasps for air that resemble "whoop" sounds, and vomiting. The symptoms can last for up to two months, and while an antibiotic is available to prevent spread of the disease, "it won't shorten the illness in the person already infected," says Trudy Murphy, a medical epidemiologist at the Center for Disease Control (CDC). Complications from the disease can include pneumonia, hernia, and physical lung damage.

While incidence of the disease plunged following development of the vaccine in the '40's, numbers have been steadily increasing since the 1970's. A preliminary CDC count estimated over 11,000 pertussis cases in the past year, an increase of over two thousand from the previous year and the highest count recorded in thirty years.

Regional outbreaks have been reported across the country, from New Hampshire and Vermont to Ohio and Pennsylvania.

Whooping cough is often fatal to young babies; while older patients generally recover, they are the major source of infection for vulnerable infants. According to an AP report, the disease has increased by 72 percent since 1990 in babies below 4 months of age. 

(...)

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=116637&page=1

*
Number of whooping cough deaths in babies rise to 10*
Ten babies have died after contracting whooping cough and the number of people infected is now five times higher than the whole of last year, officials have said. 

 In September, another baby too young to be vaccinated against the disease died, bringing the total this year to ten.

Meanwhile in England and Wales, 6,121 people have been diagnosed since the beginning of 2012, five times higher than in 2011 and seven times higher than the last peak in cases in 2008.

The figures were released by the Health Protection Agency.

Officials are extremely worried that the outbreak has continued to worsen.

Pregnant women are being offered a vaccine in the latter stages of pregnancy so that her antibodies will pass to the unborn child and protect it until it can be fully vaccinated at three months. 

(...)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...ise-to-10.html



*State, federal health regulators: Whooping cough cases rise significantly* 


Public Health
State, federal health regulators: Whooping cough cases rise significantly

By Chelsea Conaboy, Globe Staff

Massachusetts has seen a three-fold increase in the number of reported whooping cough cases so far this year. Some of the increase may be attributable to more awareness of the infection, but state and federal officials say the bacterial disease, also called pertussis, is on the rise.

There really is a true increase, and we cant always identify the reason behind it, said Dr. Larry Madoff, director of the state Department of Public Health Division of Epidemiology and Immunization.

Pertussis is characterized by a worsening cough that sometimes -- but not in every case -- causes people to whoop as they suck in air. Most cases in Massachusetts occur in people older than 10, but the disease is most dangerous in infants. Rachel Zimmerman of the WBUR CommonHealth blog wrote last spring about Chicopee baby Brady Alcaide who died of pertussis in January.

Officials with the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have warned that the number of cases is growing nationally. As of Aug. 11, 46 states and the District of Columbia had reported higher numbers of reported cases than in the same period last year. In Washington state, where there were more than 2,500 cases in the first half of 2012, a 13-fold increase, *state health officials declared an epidemic.* 

(...)
http://www.boston.com/whitecoatnotes...QOL/story.html


"It's epidemic I TELL YOU!  EPIDEMIC!!"

What most of these white coat alarmist failed to tell us is that most of the outbreaks of Whooping cough, the children had been vaccinated and with a mutant strain!!!

*
Why whooping cough's making a comeback*
*Wendy Zukerman*, Asia Pacific reporter

Whooping cough is on the rise in industrialised countries, despite long-standing vaccination programmes. Now researchers from the University of New South Wales in Sydney, Australia, have an explanation for why: at least two strains of the bacteria that cause the infection have evolved to evade today's vaccines.

According to *The Daily Telegraph of Sydney*, "the research team analysed more than 200 samples of the bacterium collected over the past 40 years in Australia and compared them with samples from Japan, Canada, USA and Finland". They found that there are at least two strains that the vaccine may not protect against - known as MT27 and MT70.

At least in rich countries, many people may think that whooping cough - also known as pertussis - is a killer from a pre-vaccination era. *The new study*, which is published in this month's edition of the journal Emerging Infectious Diseases, emphasises that incidence rates have been recently increasing in many industrialised countries. Prior to this study, *scientists were unsure why*.

*Now it seems an upgrade to a new type of vaccine may be to blame.* Up until 1997, a "whole-cell" vaccine was used before it was phased out over two years because of *concerns about side effects*. Since 1999, a new "acellular" vaccine has been used. One of the authors of the study, Ruiting Lan,* told The Advertiser of Adelaide*, South Australia: 

     "_A key issue is that the whole-cell vaccine contained hundreds of antigens, which gave broad protection against many strains of pertussis. But the acellular vaccine contains only three to five antigens. Our findings suggest that the use of the acellular vaccine may be one factor contributing to these genetic changes._"

To confirm their suspicions, the researchers also analysed particular genes in the bacteria's DNA that make the three to five antigens which interact with the new vaccine. "The new strains have a new copy of the gene and so will make a slightly different antigen," said Lan, which means *the mutated strains are unlikely to react to an immune response arising from the vaccine.*

According to *Pharmacy News* of Australia, Lan is warning that vaccination is still very important because it offers protection from many strains.

__________________


"Whooping Cough Epidemic Caused by Virulent New Pertussis Strain - And It's the Result of Vaccine" Gaia Health. Retrieved on November 19, 2012 from: http://gaia-health.com

"Bordetella pertussis Strains with Increased Toxin Production Associated with Pertussis Resurgence" Frits R. Mooi , Inge H.M. van Loo, Marjolein van Gent, Qiushui He, Marieke J. Bart, Kees J. Heuvelman, Sabine C. de Greeff, Dimitri Diavatopoulos, Peter Teunis, Nico Nagelkerke, and Jussi Mertsola, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Retrieved on November 19, 2012 from: http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/15/...11_article.htm

"Has the DTaP vaccine caused the increase in whooping cough?" Smartvax. Retrieved on November 19, 2012 from: http://www.smartvax.com

"Whooping Cough: Worst Year For Pertussis in 5 Decades, CDC Says" Mike Stobbe, July 19, 2012. Retrieved on November 19, 2012 from: http://www.huffingtonpost.com

Pertussis: Summary of Vaccine Recommendations. Department of Health and Human Services. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Retrieved on November 19, 2012 from: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/...cs-summary.htm

"Whooping Cough Outbreaks in Vaccinated Children Become More and More Frequent" Heidi Stevenson, Gaia Health, June 27, 2011. Retrieved on November 19, 2012 from: http://www.gaia-health.com


Excellent Research by Carolanne Wright.  Be careful boys, she is a member here and definitely knows her stuff!

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## Professor8000

I would like to say that as a person who remembers studying human biology, the text books all agreed that the best way to gain immunity is to be exposed to the contagion and to successfully fight it off. I will try to not have my child given any vaccines that I believe are unnecessary. Certain vaccines that are made for viruses that pose too great a risk to my child's health, I would be ok with my child receiving. However, the damn flu vaccine is a bunch of bull$#@!. Just sayin'.

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## UWDude

> Actually I believe she genuinely believes that way- I have discussed the topic many times with her.  There is nothing you or I could say which will change her mind. From her perspective, it is you and I who are distorting things. She does not trust anything from official sources- government or industry.  Thus other sources must be true.  I just try to provide information for those who are not convinced.  Anti- vaxers use fear to try to make their point- and that can be an effective tool. Parents don't want to harm their children.  And one thing about the internet is that you can find lots of articles which re-inforce your beliefs- no matter what they are.  I try to present what facts I can and let people make up their own minds.


I'm an anti-vaxxer, and I don't use fear.
I just say you have to be a moron to think you can pump yourself full of weakened diseases and mercury straight into your bloodstream, and think you have not increased the risk to suffer repercussions to your health.  Furthermore, to force a slew of diseases into the bloodstream of a baby and children is more likely to cause damage than to do it to an adult with a mature immune system that has gradually hardened over time.

You are essentially telling a child's immune system that there will be dozens of disease per year during it's life, and some immune systems will go haywire because of it.  $#@! with millions of years of evolution... ...don't act like their will be no unintended consequences.

It's just like people smoking and thinking they were doing their lungs good.  What $#@!ing fools.

And you talk all mature like "they use fear"

We use fear?  We use FEAR?
YOU HAD THE ENTIRE MSM AND ALL THE WORLD GOVERNMENTS TELLING US SWINE FLU WOULD KILL MILLIONS IF HERD IMMUNITY WAS NOT REACHED.
HERD IMMUNITY IN THE UNITED STATES WAS MISSED BY 33%.  NOTHING HAPPENED.
YOUR MEDIA FEAR FACTORY FAILED.
Your stupid arguments for flu vaccination failed.
The real world proved your fear mongering and your "science" to be a joke!

And don't think I will ever let you hyped-up hype-machine regurgitaters ever live that down.  Because I remember what you fools were like before the Swine flu hit.  You were all crying Armageddon and the end of the world if everyone did not get their vaccine.  You screamed, moaned, bitched and cried about every single little swine flu death and acted like it was a harbinger of things to come if we all didn't get our $#@!ing flu shot.

HA HA HA 

IN YOUR FACE, LOSERS.

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## angelatc

Your kid's immune system faces dozens of diseases every day, not over the course of their lives.

Your kid can die - I don't care.  The only problem is that when the reckoning day comes, the government will use it to seize control of mine.  Then and only then will I be the loser. But you'll be the bigger loser.

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## UWDude

> Your kid's immune system faces dozens of diseases every day, not over the course of their lives.
> 
> Your kid can die - I don't care.  The only problem is that when the reckoning day comes, the government will use it to seize control of mine.  Then and only then will I be the loser. But you'll be the bigger loser.


It's just the $#@!ing flu!  

The sniffles as we called it in grade school.

It's just a little discomfort!

It's just chicken pox!

Stop acting like it's horrible-death-zombiosis!


OMG  get your flu shots!!  If you don't it will kill us all! OMG!! OMG!!  EMERGENCY!! Worldwide flu epidemic coming!  Take a vaccine every year!  Get 100 vaccines in your kids if big brother says so!!

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## KingNothing

> It's just the $#@!ing flu!


Well, I mean, the flu does kill literally tens of thousands of people every year.  That said, I don't get the flu vaccine.

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## UWDude

> Well, I mean, the flu does kill literally tens of thousands of people every year.  That said, I don't get the flu vaccine.


Yeah, a vast majority of those cases are people who are going to die anyway from something soon.  People with compromised immune systems or very old people with a host of complications.

And the flu vaccine isn't even that effective as it is.

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## UWDude

> Your kid's immune system faces dozens of diseases every day, not over the course of their lives.
> 
> Your kid can die - I don't care.  The only problem is that when the reckoning day comes, the government will use it to seize control of mine.  Then and only then will I be the loser. But you'll be the bigger loser.


Did you get your Gardasil shot yet?

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## Dogsoldier

Do animals get vacs? How do they survive?

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## cubical

How do the "pro-aggression" people explain these? They seem like legit sources, no?

-------------

http://drdavidbrownstein.blogspot.co...ole-lotta.html

“Children who get the flu vaccine are three times more at risk for hospitalization than children who do not get the flu vaccine.” (American Thoracic Society 105th International Conference, May 15-20, 2009, San Diego, CA.).

“no evidence that injecting children 6-24 months of age with a flu shot was any more effective than placebo. In children over two years of age, it was only effective 33% of the time in preventing the flu. (Chochrane Database of Systemic Reviews 2. 2008).

According to the CDC, the elderly are a population at increased risk for acquiring the flu and developing complications of the flu. In nursing homes or for the elderly living in the community, researchers found the flu shot was ineffective for preventing the flu. (Chochrane Databse of Systemic Reviews. 3(2006). In fact, the flu shot has never been shown to lower the rate of mortality from the flu in any population, including the elderly.
The Cochrane group is an independent medical research group designed to help physicians put evidence into practice. They do not take Big Pharma money. A 2010 study by the Cochrane group tried to answer the question, “Does seasonal influenza immunization of health care personnel reduce the incidence of influenza and its complications in older residents of long-term facilities?” The authors examined four randomized controlled trials and one cohort study. They found that vaccination of personnel had no effect on the incidence of laboratory-proven influenza, pneumonia, admissions to the hospital, and death from pneumonia. The authors concluded, “There is insufficient evidence to support the vaccination of health care workers as a measure to protect older patients from influenza.” (Am. Fam. Phy. Oct 1, 2010. Vol. 82, No. 7. Pg. 763-4).

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## Weston White

To all of those pro-vaccinationers that argued (namely within this thread) to obfuscate the suspected links between vaccinations and debilitating, crushing, life-changing illness, permit me to be one of the first--if not the first--to inform you that Dr. Wakefield has now been fully vindicated.

An Italian court has ruled that there is a link between vaccinations and autism; and moreover, the Vaccine Court has recently awarded a multimillion dollar judgement to two children that now suffer from autism due to having been vaccinated.

Dr. Wakefield is now pressing ahead, full-pull in his libel lawsuit to compel certain media mediums to retract their prior statements discrediting him and his research.

Oh yea, and... ZWAHH!





See more at: http://www.robertscottbell.com/blog/...-gun-ban-more/

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## wirenut

I just don't trust the drug companies.  Only reason I don't get a shot.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0nan_xyCNs

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## dinosaur

> I just don't trust the drug companies.  Only reason I don't get a shot.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0nan_xyCNs


I became suspicious after reading an article in  an Australian newspaper years ago about the controversy surrounding the deliberate infection of the mice population with mouse cytomegalovirus in order to cause them to have fewer babies.  I remembered reading that the monkey version of the cytomegalovirus was one of the many that were found in the original polio vaccine.  Then I came into contact with a board certafied MD who was pioneering a new treatment for food allergies and autoimmune diseases that included virus supressing drugs.  For some reason, he always found what he called DNA viruses (cytomegalovirus was on this list) actively present in his worst cases.  Considering the rise in immune system problems and food allergies in this country, hell yes, I'm suspicious.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12217341
http://elephantpopulationcontrol.lib...nas/txt11.html

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