# Lifestyles & Discussion > Open Discussion >  Intercity Passenger Rail

## acptulsa

This has been covered on this forum before, but buried in a Hot Topics thread about a thousand pages long which seems to be no longer in the archives.  So, since it does keep coming up, and since Obama likes it so much, the TSA sucks and we really should find less fuel-dependent ways to do things, I want to reprise it.

Once upon a time, there was a thing called the Interstate Commerce Commission.  It was founded to prevent _kamikaze_ capitalism amongst railroads in a day when their efficiencies and primitive technology pretty much guaranteed them a monopoly in viable transportation.

The best thing Reagan did, in my opinion, and the one time I felt some hope for a moment that he would prove to be the libertarian he claimed to be, was when he abolished this bureau.  But it was a decade too late to save the passenger train.

In 1970, the Santa Fe was voluntarily running very high quality passenger services between Chicago and Los Angeles, Chicago and San Francisco, Chicago and Houston via Ft. Worth and with a connecting train to Dallas, and Los Angeles to San Diego.  All were daily; the _San Diegan_ featured three daily round trips.

The ICC was also forcing the corporation to operate daily between La Junta, Co. and Denver, and between Kansas City and Tulsa.  These services were losing the railroad considerable money.  But the ICC refused to let the railroad drop these unpopular services.  Montana was the worst, thanks to Sen. Mike Mansfield.  The Burlington Northern was forced to maintain six round trips a day between St. Paul and Seattle.

So, rather than beat Reagan to the punch and declare the ICC redundant in a world of Interstate highways and air freight services, Nixon and his henchman Erlichman found a way to expand government instead.  They bought rail from the New Haven and the collapsed Penn Central, and created Amtrak out of it.  This rail runs through Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland and into the District of Columbia.

They also took over all passenger services, and reserved unto itself the authority to run on privately owned rail.  This was voluntary; 'joining up' required a massive payoff (payable at the government's option in locomotives and passenger cars) and agreement to trackage rights and such.  Those that didn't join were to keep running their current schedules for ten years.  No cooperation in routing, scheduling or ticketing was to be forthcoming between the holdouts and Amtrak.

Most railroads joined.  Then came the insult added to the injury.  It turned out that the government wasn't willing to run many of the 'vital' services that the government wouldn't let private enterprise discontinue.  So, after the Amtrak takeover, the national passenger rail network looked much as it would have looked had the government let the railroads run what was popular and drop what wasn't.  But with a difference.  Amtrak sucked from the first.

So, would there be high-speed rail if Amtrak were never created?  Well, Amtrak would have been created, even if the eight states that benefit most had to create it themselves.  But it wouldn't have spread beyond that corridor.  And I haven't heard of high-speed rail being created without government involvement in recent years.  So, who knows?  But it wouldn't have and won't happen(ed) out West, where medium sized cities are hundreds of miles apart.  The economics aren't there.

But what we would have, had Nixon acted like a conservative for once, and in my opinion, are a select few, very nice trains much like hotels on wheels.  They would have come back into style by now, they would not only be helpful but really pleasant, and we'd like them.  And I think the process could be reversed, if public interest could be kindled.  The way Amtrak was equipped in the beginning could be reversed at it's end.  This would allow private enterprise to resume their traditions with minimal risk.

Not Obama's high speed rail.  But realistic, a good thing, and a talking point for our side.

----------


## acptulsa

> 'What does the experience of the railroads tell us about the American way of competition and regulation?  Obviously it suggests that the usual time lag between policy and reality has grown steadily worse over the years.  Regulatory policy, like old generals, seems doomed always to fight the last war, partly because in our system it takes so long to recognize new problems and then to build a concensus for change.  At bottom regulation involves a quest for some viable equation reconciling economic efficiency, social justice, and political acceptability.  The more complex regulatory mechanisms become, the more difficult it is to adjust them or get rid of them when necessary, let alone tie them to these objectives.
> 
> 'Since the pace of change wrought by new technology continues to gain speed, the gap between policy and reality widens daily despite all efforts to close it.  In the modern world policy cannot possibly keep pace with change of all kinds.'

----------


## acptulsa

About a thousand pages from now, if you read this thread through, you'll find a maleducated liberal troll trying to shove all the modern socialist railroad talking points down my throat.  Well, I've encountered this line of propaganda before, and I'm so sick of it that I'm going to repeat my response right here on Page One, where all of you can find it whenever you need it.




> Everything you said is completely obsurd.


Stop making up words.




> I do know the difference I was simply asking why the Libertarian party relevant to the discussion at all.


If you knew the difference between libertarian and Libertarian it would show.




> Amtrak has to pay for usage of the tracks and this in turn makes money for freight railroads.


No, it doesn't.  It _partially_ recompenses the railroads for their wear and tear, dispatching, and the delays to their non-priority freight traffic.  It has never completely recompensed railroads for these very real expenses.




> Railroads were originally obligated themselves to run passenger trains Amtrak removes this obligation.


If you had the decency to read the OP of this very thread before you commenced trying to hijack it, you'd realize that Amtrak does not run all the routes that the federal government told the freight railroads were too important for them to discontinue.  So, you arguing that the government removes the obligation the government declares to be an obligation is completely circular non-reasoning.




> Amtrak often improves freight railroads through capital improvement to railroads. Amtrak has in some cases has actually improved freight railroads.


Link me to proof that Amtrak has ever made capital improvements to anything but stations and their own equipment or just stop lying in my thread, because I'm not letting you get away with it.




> As for we the people we the people gave them vast sums of land, we the people gave them franchises, we the people gave them eminent domain, we the people bailed out the failing Penn Central, and we the people provide them loans at below market interest rates. Yes government is a thorn in the sides of railroads but railroads have are in large part the successful and prevalent industry they are _because_ of government.


The government got paid back for the land grants three ways.  One, the railroads built railroads, and since the government hung onto half of the grant lands in a 'checkerboard pattern' in each case, the half of the land the government kept quintupled (or more) in price.  The government got railroads that attracted settlers, thereby expanding government's tax base.  And the government demanded of land grant railroads that they haul strategic materials at a reduced rate right through to the end of World War II, thereby repaying the government for those lands several times over.  Just how much servitude do you expect of the railroads for those long-ago 'grants'?

Franchises?  A small enough thing for an industry which was a key factor in the United States' growth into the world superpower.  Eminent domain?  That is extensively used for highways, but you'll have to prove to me that it was extensively used for the railroads--use of eminent domain for non-government projects is a very recent phenomenon.  The only cases of cut rate government loans I'm familiar with are for the original transcontinental and for Penn Central.  _Credit Mobilier_ more than repaid the crooked Congress of the Gilded Age for the one, and the other was (if possible) an even bigger boondoggle.  And railroads are successful _in spite_ of government in this country, not because of it.




> Ron Paul did indeed support High speed rail. For his own state mind you. He wanted the private sector to do it but he did support a combination of public and private funding.


I didn't say otherwise.  I said he never voted for federal funding of it.  Considering all of the nation, even the poorest parts of it, pay for Amtrak, but two of the wealthiest portions of the nation (the northeast and Southern California) reap almost all the benefit of it, I don't know why he would have.  It's not only unnecessary and immoral, it's one of the most regressive steal from the poor and give to the rich programs the federal government runs.  Hell, Oklahoma is one of the poorest states in the nation, and had to do without Amtrak until it funded a route _on its own,_ which Amtrak was kind enough to provide ticketing services for and to connect with at Ft. Worth.  It's insanity.

If you don't read my opening post and educate yourself, I'm going to accuse you of spamming my thread.  There's no excuse for you displaying such ignorance in a thread designed to educate you.  Come back after you claim the free clue I have laid out for you, and maybe we can have an intelligent conversation.  Or don't come back at all.

----------


## Matt Collins

There is a train system from the suburban area to metro Nashville called the "Music City Star".  Our local libertarian thinktank has dubbed it the "Music City Debt Star"...

----------


## acptulsa

Yeah, suburban rail is something else.  Generally, it gets subsidized in metro areas because it solves traffic and parking problems.  Intercity rail, however, it isn't, and folks shouldn't compare the economies of the two.  For one thing, it doesn't advertise a specific railroad's long distance freight services, a major incentive for the railroads to run intercity passenger services back in the day.

----------


## Anti Federalist

If the artificial price restraint of government subsidies were eliminated from air and road transport, inter-city rail would boom overnight.

For moving people and goods swiftly and fuel efficiently, rail can't be beat.

Also proving once again that "new" is not always "better".

----------


## Anti Federalist

Nice old shot of an F7 EMD.

According to wiki, this train, the "Super Chief" and the "El Capitan" were the only ones Santa Fe used for passenger service at the time this photo was taken, I'm guessing around 1950-52 or so.

Neat tech note, even at this point in time, steam was still the prime mover, and power for auxiliary systems as well.

Note the steam venting from the internal steam boiler at the back of the lead unit. That was there to provide heat and power to the rest of the train that was still steam powered.

Lol, and also note the big puddles of leaking diesel fuel under each fuel filling hose.

No EPA and CARB busting balls then.




>

----------


## acptulsa

> Nice old shot of an F7 EMD.


E-6

But I forgive you.  

The only ones they used E-6 models on?  Oh, no.  By that time they were, in fact, out of transcontinental service and mainly restricted to the Great Plains, as on the _Kansas Cityan_ and _Chicagoan._  The photo's earlier than that, though.  The front coupler covers did not, I don't think, survive the war.  Scrap metal drives did away with more than a little streamlining, unfortunately.

These had MARS lights by '49 as well.  Guess I should go educate Wiki, huh?

----------


## MelissaWV

I'm not entirely sure these projects would get built in a strictly private sector capacity, anyhow.

Why on earth would I want to zoom between Tampa and Orlando (other than, I guess, attraction-hopping)?  Moreover, wouldn't I need to first get to the starting point (unless you build it at the airport which would be a whole 'nother headache) and park there and then take rail?  Wouldn't it be pretty limited as to where it's going to take me?  Wouldn't it be faster, the vast majority of the time, to drive?  Other routes being considered in Florida are redundant with already fast-moving interstates.  I just don't see it being worth all the cost and planning.  I can't think of too many places where it would be.

----------


## acptulsa

To my mind, decent rail service would have three major draws:

Short trips where traveling existing, non superspeed freight rail from downtown to downtown will save you enough time stuck in airport traffic to come out functionally the same.

Eight hour (or so) trips where Pullman trains are scheduled overnight.  You check into your motel, sleep overnight, and wake up at your destination.  Beats getting up in the middle of the night to catch a red eye flight.

Vacations where people decide to give up a few days at their destination so they can stay the extra day at each end on the rolling motel, enjoying the ever-changing view and the beauty of 'flyover country'.  A service which Canada has usually done pretty well with over the years, and where Amtrak has some success in spite of itself.

High speed rail needs a short hop between serious, serious population centers to do well.  I think doing it in the U.S. would be putting the cart before the horse.  We need to get rail travel back on people's radar before we worry about extra-special versions of it.  Non-high speed rail (which can still be faster than travel by car) relies on freight rail, and is not cost prohibitive.  So long as the underwriters don't get goofy, the railroads wouldn't have any particular trouble doing it.

----------


## IDefendThePlatform

> I'm not entirely sure these projects would get built in a strictly private sector capacity, anyhow.
> 
> Why on earth would I want to zoom between Tampa and Orlando (other than, I guess, attraction-hopping)?  Moreover, wouldn't I need to first get to the starting point (unless you build it at the airport which would be a whole 'nother headache) and park there and then take rail?  Wouldn't it be pretty limited as to where it's going to take me?  Wouldn't it be faster, the vast majority of the time, to drive?  Other routes being considered in Florida are redundant with already fast-moving interstates.  I just don't see it being worth all the cost and planning.  I can't think of too many places where it would be.


I think this post assumes a similar interstate system would be in place without govt subsidies. If the US govt got completely out of the transportation business, then I think it would make more sense to travel by train between large cities a certain distance apart. It would save a lot of money on road building and maintenance.

And no, I don't have any numbers whatsoever to back this up.

----------


## Southron

> I think this post assumes a similar interstate system would be in place without govt subsidies. If the US govt got completely out of the transportation business, then I think it would make more sense to travel by train between large cities a certain distance apart. It would save a lot of money on road building and maintenance.
> 
> And no, I don't have any numbers whatsoever to back this up.


Even without interstate highways, the city of destination is going to need enough infrastructure for people to be able to travel within the city without needing to rent a car or spend a fortune on a taxi.

----------


## acptulsa

> Even without interstate highways, the city of destination is going to need enough infrastructure for people to be able to travel within the city without needing to rent a car or spend a fortune on a taxi.


Interesting you should mention it.  A little while before Amtrak, a thing called Auto Rail was created.  This was a combination of passenger train and auto transport freight train which took seasonal 'snowbirds' and their cars to Florida for the winter.  A little higher ticket and they didn't need to either drive that far or own two cars--one for summer in New York, one for winter in Florida.

Amtrak got away from it, but since the railroads themselves have unloading facilities for auto racks, they could well reinstate the idea.  So, who would need to rent a car?  Travel all day, travel all night in your motel room, have your own car when you arrive.

----------


## IDefendThePlatform

> Even without interstate highways, the city of destination is going to need enough infrastructure for people to be able to travel within the city without needing to rent a car or spend a fortune on a taxi.


True, but my point is that without government subsidy, the economics, or "return on investment" would still probably favor rail over individual cars between cities. 

And actually my larger point is that a true free market in transportation would respond to consumer demand way, way better than govt subsidies ever could.

----------


## acptulsa

> And actually my larger point is that a true free market in transportation would respond to consumer demand way, way better than govt subsidies ever could.


Been so long since passenger rail had a free market in this country, it would be hard to prove.  But, freight service has certainly been responsive enough to consumer demands over the years.

----------


## nayjevin

This is really interesting.  I've seen some brochures for scenic tours by rail in various places I've vacationed, and the family has considered it.  Weren't there dining cars and even live entertainment back in the day?  Or is that just in movies?  I can see a real luxury setup making travel pretty fun, but could costs for something like that be kept down to the point that everyone can enjoy it?

Also what about safety concerns?  I guess we hear about every train wreck that happens, but certainly not every auto accident.  How does it compare to air travel or automobile?

----------


## acptulsa

There still are dining cars.  The story of railroad food is actually a pretty interesting one.  Sort of, How Private Enterprise Brought Women To the Western Territories.  Look up Fred Harvey.  Dude civilized the West just because it got the Santa Fe an edge in good old fashioned _competition._

Back in the day, passengers mostly entertained each other.  Yes, there were a few trains with cars that had little in one end but a dance floor and a piano.  That was long ago.  Now the conductors tend to tune in local stations on the train's stereo as you pass them.  Seems like Anthrax--er, I mean Amtrak played with movies for a bit, but since the government takeover innovation has been, shall we say, lethargic.

Pullman rooms aren't exactly cheap, no.  A Pullman fare is liable to be as much as airfare plus lodging for the same period of time.  This isn't too bad, considering that traveling in a motel room isn't exactly traveling light.  Fortunately, trains are very, very efficient.  Plus, the rooms tend to be smaller than you'd expect from a stationary hostelry.  Coach travel is for the frugal; you get more room than on a bus but it's still like sleeping in a recliner in a wardroom.  You do get that wonderful window, though.  You know--the one with the view that never stays the same.

Safety has been pretty good.  Exceptionally good for a government operation.  This despite the fact that the railroads and Amtrak have had a very antagonistic relationship from the start.  And, of course, history has yet to record the instance of a train falling from 30,000 feet.

----------


## scottditzen

I was upset that Governor Kasich pulled the plug on Ohio's plan for inter-city rail. Anyhow, here's an article that, while interesting, unfairly paints libertarians on the issue:

What's So Conservative About Federal Highways

http://amconmag.com/article/2010/aug/01/00023/

----------


## acptulsa

_*sigh*_  Unfortunately, _American Conservative_ often needs schooling.

To hell with the governor.  If the market's there...

http://www.cumbrestoltec.com/

These people operate ninety year old _steam_ as a private venture.  Of course, many of the employees are in love with the country and the railroad, and work for peanuts.  Plus, the scenery is just--I can't do it justice.  You have to see to believe.

But ninety year old steam.  And the damned thing doesn't even go anywhere.  Yet it has stayed afloat for decades and is still solvent.

----------


## acptulsa

> But ninety year old steam.  And the damned thing doesn't even go anywhere.  Yet it has stayed afloat for decades and is still solvent.


The fact that Anthrax--er, I mean Amtrak (I love railrans ) has squeezed private enterprise into little pockets means that the attitude toward trains in this country is one of it's the journey, not the destination.  Well, you can get to some destinations on Gubbermint Rail, but it's an either/or.  Either the journey is wonderful or the destination is reached.  Hardly something to make the airlines tremble.  But there was a day when American rail travel was about both.  Back when rail travel was still popular enough that ICC regulations could not yet completely strangle free enterprise, and Amtrak was not yet a gleam in John Erlichman's beady eyes.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> This is really interesting.  I've seen some brochures for scenic tours by rail in various places I've vacationed, and the family has considered it.  Weren't there dining cars and even live entertainment back in the day?  Or is that just in movies?  I can see a real luxury setup making travel pretty fun, but could costs for something like that be kept down to the point that everyone can enjoy it?
> 
> Also what about safety concerns?  I guess we hear about every train wreck that happens, but certainly not every auto accident.  How does it compare to air travel or automobile?


Conway NH Scenic RR. One of the best in the country IMO.

http://www.conwayscenic.com/index.cf...n=home.welcome

Notch train pulled by Canadian National 0-6-0 number 7470

----------


## Anti Federalist

> E-6
> 
> But I forgive you.  
> 
> The only ones they used E-6 models on?  Oh, no.  By that time they were, in fact, out of transcontinental service and mainly restricted to the Great Plains, as on the _Kansas Cityan_ and _Chicagoan._  The photo's earlier than that, though.  The front coupler covers did not, I don't think, survive the war.  Scrap metal drives did away with more than a little streamlining, unfortunately.
> 
> These had MARS lights by '49 as well.  Guess I should go educate Wiki, huh?


Nah, my mistake, I thought it was an F7 and according to wiki only the Super Chief (which that is a photo of which is why I thought F7) and the El Capitan used the F7.

Many Santa Fe combinations and passenger trains used the E6 though.

According to wiki there are only two surviving E6s left, one of which is stripped and on static display only.

----------


## acptulsa

wiki needs schooling.  Probably right about the E-6 shortage though.  One of GM's better designs...

At least one railroad is likely to jump on the chance to restore regular passenger service.  I say this because they have been enthusiastically running irregular passenger service all along, and have established patrons already:

http://www.upexcursion.com/

----------


## fisharmor

The hidden costs behind air travel are too numerous to mention.
If it wasn't economical to travel in any way besides by air, then Greyhound wouldn't exist.

I also think that rail doesn't necessarily need to be high-speed.
For instance, I'm planning a trip to Cincinnati and Indianapolis in a couple weeks.
Even if we cram into our compact, it's still going to cost around $250 in gas, and we're going to lose sleep.
If we want to ride in the van in comfort, that doubles.
If it was possible to move a family of four even at regular rail speeds (which are about the same as by car) for under $500, I'd do it.  It's less wear on my vehicles, less wear on my body, and less wear on my kids.
I'm far from alone.  I don't think it's an economic impossibility.

I do think that it's a legal impossibility.

----------


## Pericles

If you factor in two hours of hassle at an airport and drive time, there is a travel zone where rail makes perfect sense. 

It terms of comfort, it would beat a bus all to Hell - I don't think anything can touch it it terms of cost per ton mile.

DFW has the Trinity Railway Express http://www.trinityrailwayexpress.org/

----------


## acptulsa

I have a 1965 Santa Fe brochure that advertises family fares, where a family of four can travel for, iirc, less than two adult full fares.  And of course, if you travel Pullman you can all share the room, though you might not want to make do with a roomette.




> It terms of comfort, it would beat a bus all to Hell


Shall we stroll to the club car for a cocktail?

----------


## Pericles

> I have a 1965 Santa Fe brochure that advertises family fares, where a family of four can travel for, iirc, less than two adult full fares.  And of course, if you travel Pullman you can all share the room, though you might not want to make do with a roomette.
> 
> 
> 
> Shall we stroll to the club car for a cocktail?


Trains are the civilized form of ground transportation. The Swiss federal railways wired the cars with wi-fi. I only drive my car local or when taking friends and family around Europe. For an individual, rail is the unquestioned cost leader.

----------


## sratiug

Our local line going from Brookhaven to Natchez Mississippi was bought out last year by a company that specializes in recycling.  The county that Natchez is in is interested in a multi-county partnership trying to buy it to keep it open but our county (unfortunately named Lincoln), doesn't want to spend any money on it.  We are on the main north south line from New Orleans to Chicago that runs through Brookhaven.  The line from Natchez I think used to continue on to Meridian but I think that was already shut down.

I don't know what other lines Natchez has, but Natchez is of course the oldest port on the Mississippi.

On our main line (whatever it is called now, used to be Illinois Central Gulf) we have never had a shortage of train traffic and we always had two tracks.  They pulled out one set a few years ago.  I can't see how that was a smart move with as many trains as they are running.

----------


## acptulsa

Single track is easier to maintain, and with computer aided dispatching and real time feedback it can move a lot of traffic.  Also, duplicate lines which have come into the same company through mergers are now often paired and used as double track, even though they don't serve all the same towns between endpoints.

More than a few grainger lines throughout the country are run by farmers' coops, and some are owned by the biggest companies they serve.  Remember 'Short Line' from the Monopoly board?  Never a railroad with that name.  These are the kind of branches that refers to.  None of them are likely to be able to offer passenger service point-to-point, though some manage to maintain excursions.

Of course, if oil keeps going up, the economics of short line rural rail travel could well change.

----------


## acptulsa

As for the other roads mentioned on the Monopoly board...



An older Pacific locomotive streamlined for Reading Crusader service, c. 1939

----------


## acptulsa

B & O EA and EB diesels on the _Capitol Ltd.,_ 1939

----------


## acptulsa

One of the Pennsy's famous GG1 electrics at the fine museum in Green Bay, WI.

----------


## acptulsa

Yes.  And private enterprise, too.  The Durango & Silverton.

----------


## MelissaWV

> Interesting you should mention it.  A little while before Amtrak, a thing called Auto Rail was created.  This was a combination of passenger train and auto transport freight train which took seasonal 'snowbirds' and their cars to Florida for the winter.  A little higher ticket and they didn't need to either drive that far or own two cars--one for summer in New York, one for winter in Florida.
> 
> Amtrak got away from it, but since the railroads themselves have unloading facilities for auto racks, they could well reinstate the idea.  So, who would need to rent a car?  Travel all day, travel all night in your motel room, have your own car when you arrive.


Right, and that's a fine example of an interstate venture.

This is about intercity rail.

This is about commuters and tourists, supposedly, at least in Florida... who are going to want to be able to travel once they arrive at their destination.  It would pretty much function as a mix of Metro and Disney Monorail.  Hell, I'd think if the idea were that amazingly good, Disney and Busch would have set aside their differences and built the thing when times were better

----------


## acptulsa

Hey, why should Anheuser Busch and Disney spend their own money improving their own appeal when they can get the neighbors to foot the bill?




Whenever I see someone advocating High Speed Rail where there isn't even a standard-gauge train running, I can't help but think of that clip.

----------


## MelissaWV

> Whenever I see someone advocating High Speed Rail where there isn't even a standard-gauge train running, I can't help but think of that clip.


Indeed, which brings me back to my point:  I don't think high-speed rail connecting Tampa and Orlando would really happen in a totally free market, either.  It doesn't seem like a front-burner sort of project, and more of a pain than potential profits would suggest prudent to undertake.

----------


## acptulsa

> ...and more of a pain than potential profits would suggest prudent to undertake.


The companies, communities, or both could decide their combined tourism enhancement was worth the expense and trouble.  But I don't want my tax dollars used to benefit them.  Seems to me the Concorde proved that a lot of extra money for a little extra speed wasn't the best business model.

----------


## acptulsa

Something for anyone who wants to delve deeper--route list 'on the eve of Amtrak'.  Quite a contrast to what Amtrak ran itself.

http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Am...s_pre1971.html

----------


## acptulsa

> Right, and that's a fine example of an interstate venture.
> 
> This is about intercity rail.


Oh, and it's my damned thread, Melissa.

----------


## acptulsa



----------


## MelissaWV

*looks up* Well, if I'm wrong, you might've titled it differently.

----------


## acptulsa

> *looks up* Well, if I'm wrong, you might've titled it differently.


LOL  Might've.  But I'm all about discussing 'most anything related but commuter service...

----------


## Grubb556

Don't most people ultimately prefer a car, because it is your personal space so you feel more comfortable ?

----------


## acptulsa

So, Obama says a few extra miles an hour would win over the multitudes that Amtrak has spectacularly failed to please and impressed for decades.  I say trains can't compete with air with speed, ships do compete with air but not with speed, and quality means something.  And trying civility rather than speed is the cheaper option.  By far, when your mainland is three thousand miles across.

Billions for thousands and thousands of miles of a few extra miles per hour?  Or give the people who own the rails a chance?




> Don't most people ultimately prefer a car, because it is your personal space so you feel more comfortable ?


A Pullman train offers you a little room of your own.  And you can stand up in it.  Many people prefer to drive for various reasons.  But a room on a train keeps moving even as you sleep in a comfortable bunk.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Don't most people ultimately prefer a car, because it is your personal space so you feel more comfortable ?


Thus the beauty of a "sleeper" cabin.

----------


## acptulsa



----------


## acptulsa



----------


## UtahApocalypse

I am a huge railfan. This thread is all win for me.

----------


## acptulsa

Oh, to have a fallen flag railroad to ride, now that spring is here.  Gubbermint rail sux!

----------


## Anti Federalist

For fellow railfans



Brand new British "Peppercorn" class, completed in 2009.

----------


## acptulsa

I've got a nice shot of the UP Challenger, too.  Unfortunately (in some ways), I took it on film, not pixels.  I ought to get it scanned.

Those Peppercorns are interesting.  I think one could be 'decorated' as a more American-style Pacific.  And just about every American railroad did have Pacifics, so it could be a useful faux-historical thing here too.

----------


## acptulsa

I wasn't going to carry on about steam, as this idea of ending Amtrak and re-privatizing most rail travel wouldn't actually lead to much if any steam power being used.  But AF is leading me into temptation.  The Henry Dreyfuss streamlining on the NYC Hudson:



Definitely too good for government work.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I've got a nice shot of the UP Challenger, too.  Unfortunately (in some ways), I took it on film, not pixels.  I ought to get it scanned.
> 
> Those Peppercorns are interesting.  I think one could be 'decorated' as a more American-style Pacific.  And just about every American railroad did have Pacifics, so it could be a useful faux-historical thing here too.


I gnash my teeth on a regular basis over the fact that we, in the states, can't fund a project like that.

Imagine a brand new 2-8-0 Consolidation being built.

----------


## acptulsa

> Imagine a brand new 2-8-0 Consolidation being built.


Would be fun, but I doubt it--both because they are still not uncommon and because they were freight hogs.

I've got the notion that steam could be more efficient in passenger service than diesel.  How on earth?  Because people love steamers.  More love means more passengers, and more passengers means more efficiency.  So, steam _could_ be very efficient in passenger service just because it would attract some business.  Hard for a train to top three hundred passenger miles per gallon with two people on board...

Of course, Obama doesn't want rail to have a chance to _attract_ passengers.  They want fuel prices and the TSA (and, presumably, legislation if all else fails) to_ force_ passengers onto trains.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Not to mention vast, relatively cheap coal reserves.




> Would be fun, but I doubt it--both because they are still not uncommon and because they were freight hogs.
> 
> I've got the notion that steam could be more efficient in passenger service than diesel.  How on earth?  Because people love steamers.  More love means more passengers, and more passengers means more efficiency.  So, steam _could_ be very efficient in passenger service just because it would attract some business.  Hard for a train to top three hundred passenger miles per gallon with two people on board...
> 
> Of course, Obama doesn't want rail to have a chance to _attract_ passengers.  They want fuel prices and the TSA (and, presumably, legislation if all else fails) to_ force_ passengers onto trains.

----------


## acptulsa

> Not to mention vast, relatively cheap coal reserves.


Oh, hell, run it on _anything_ that burns.  And it's just as efficient as its fireman is good at his job.

----------


## eduardo89

I prefer electric locos



Siemens locomotive proposal for Amtrak. So sexy!

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I prefer electric locos
> 
> 
> 
> Siemens locomotive proposal for Amtrak. So sexy!


Just another thing we can't build anymore...Grrrrrr...

----------


## acptulsa

> Siemens locomotive proposal for Amtrak. So sexy!


Electrics are wonderful, if traffic is thick enough to justify maintaining the catenary wire.  Wonderful.  First vehicles to use regenerative braking, and it doesn't even need batteries.  It just generated electricity by braking (turning its motors into generators) and ships it over the wire to a train under power.  Good stuff.  They last forever, too.

If not for Amtrak, U.S. locomotive builders would actually concentrate on both electrics and high-speed designs.  Then we could end the silly practice of our government having European designs like this license-built here.  And we wouldn't run into problems like those silly rubber tires of German design that have caused deadly accidents here and abroad.

And we'd have American electrics again:

http://www.davesrailpix.com/nh/htm/nh072.htm




> Just another thing we can't build anymore...Grrrrrr...


General freaking *Electric* is the biggest locomotive builder in this country, and they can't even come up with a decent high-speed truck for this kind of service.

General freaking Electric.  Too damned busy trying to brainwash us with msnbc to do their damned job.

----------


## eduardo89

I've said this quite a few times already in different threads on rail travel here.

The main problem I see in developing an intercity rail system in the US is that privately funded rail cannot compete on the same playing field as government funded Interstates and subsidized airports. As long as there are no user fees on interstates and other highways and airports are given massive subsidies and grants, intercity rail travel will not be able to compete.

The other massive problem I see is FRA regulations which mandate locomotives and carriages to be built like tanks, meaning they're heavier, slower and less efficient. We need to get rid of ridiculous federal regulations on railways.

And obviously, there is the problem of Amtrak, which I'm sure we can all agree needs to be opened up to true competetion. I support a position such as Ron Paul's on the Fed. We don't necessarily have to shut down Amtrak, but just allow private companies to compete with it on equal terms. Of course, I'd much rather just have Amtrak's rolling stock sold off and the company shut down (or turned into a privitized Network Rail type system where all operators come together to create a seamless brand/network).

----------


## acptulsa

I've thought of the network too, though I think of it as Enterprise Rail.  And I don't see having it compete with Amtrak, because the gubbmint couldn't compete if they _did_ have their own rail outside The Corridor, and the states involved could inherit that.  So, I think there should be a reverse of the process that created Amtrak.  The railroads agree to run this or that service for a period of time, and in return Amtrak gives them the equipment to do it with.  After all, that's how Amtrak got what it needed to begin in 1971.

And the railroads are pretty damned efficient companies.  I think they could compete.  Small stations or the big, old stations with plenty of rent-paying stores in them, no complaints if they do form a single system because air and road do still compete with them...

The Union Pacific considers steam excursions worth the trouble a few times a year.  Whether they're profitable or just good advertising, I don't know.  But I don't see all the railroads shying away from this challenge.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> General freaking *Electric* is the biggest locomotive builder in this country, and they can't even come up with a decent high-speed truck for this kind of service.
> 
> General freaking Electric.  Too damned busy trying to brainwash us with msnbc to do their damned job.


Bet if they got a contract to build some new truck/tread drive assembly for a MIC killbot, they'd have no problem. Grrrr....

----------


## UtahApocalypse

I worked for three years on The Heber Valley Railroad in Utah. 

Me and My Motorcar for Firepatrol


Diesel Locomotive

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I worked for three years on The Heber Valley Railroad in Utah. 
> 
> Me and My Motorcar for Firepatrol
> 
> 
> Diesel Locomotive


Awesome.

I was an operator here for a couple of summers.

http://www.trolleymuseum.org/

----------


## acptulsa

Either of you been to the National Museum of Transportation, just west of St. Louis.

Have I got some pics!  Need to get a scanner...

http://www.transportmuseumassociation.org/

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Either of you been to the National Museum of Transportation, just west of St. Louis.
> 
> Have I got some pics!  Need to get a scanner...
> 
> http://www.transportmuseumassociation.org/


No, I don't get out west too often, but it looks interesting.

I'm going to take the kids here during the summer.

http://www.cassrailroad.com/

Largest collection of operating Shay verticals in the world.

----------


## acptulsa

Shays are funny--all the geared engines are, if you're used to hearing the rod engines.  The things chug fifty beats a second to beat the band and you just know it's going to come around the bend at seventy, and the thing is doing twenty.

Drag 'em down to the B&O museum in Baltimore.  Another good one.  They have the oldest equipment I've ever seen in person.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Shays are funny--all the geared engines are, if you're used to hearing the rod engines.  The things chug fifty beats a second to beat the band and you just know it's going to come around the bend at seventy, and the thing is doing twenty.
> 
> Drag 'em down to the B&O museum in Baltimore.  Another good one.  They have the oldest equipment I've ever seen in person.


Yeah, been meaning to get there for years now.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Shays are funny--all the geared engines are, if you're used to hearing the rod engines.  The things chug fifty beats a second to beat the band and you just know it's going to come around the bend at seventy, and the thing is doing twenty.
> 
> Drag 'em down to the B&O museum in Baltimore.  Another good one.  They have the oldest equipment I've ever seen in person.


The folks at Clarks Trading post in Lincoln NH have one of only three in the world of these IIRC

----------


## acptulsa

> The folks at Clarks Trading post in Lincoln NH have one of only three in the world of these IIRC


About that.  How are you going to explain to your preacher you're taking your grandkids to see a Climax?

----------


## acptulsa

Here's a side-geared Shay.  Really sounds like it's going somewhere, doesn't it?

----------


## AGRP

Pretty trains:



What a nice excuse to line the coffers of our elected officials.

----------


## acptulsa

> What a nice excuse to line the coffers of our elected officials.


Lord.  Trolleys.  Every city worth the name once had tracks.  Now, how do you get them back at this late date without it becoming a major cluster?

Well, this thread isn't about transit or suburban rail.  But the things we throw away.  Like the Constitution, for example.  What a wonderful feeling when we finally wake up and say, 'What have we done?'

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Lord.  Trolleys.  Every city worth the name once had tracks.  Now, how do you get them back at this late date without it becoming a major cluster?
> 
> Well, this thread isn't about transit or suburban rail.  But the things we throw away.  Like the Constitution, for example.  What a wonderful feeling when we finally wake up and say, 'What have we done?'


That ^^^

I'd give you rep if I wasn't out of ammo.

Some things mankind got right on our first try and should not be $#@!ed with.

New does not always equal better.

----------


## AGRP

> Lord.  Trolleys.  Every city worth the name once had tracks.  Now, how do you get them back at this late date without it becoming a major cluster?
> 
> Well, this thread isn't about transit or suburban rail.  But the things we throw away.  Like the Constitution, for example.  What a wonderful feeling when we finally wake up and say, 'What have we done?'


Portland has a very extensive rail system (they kept a lot of their tracks).  It's the poster child for trolleys/tram.

The system may be bankrupting the state, but they are pretty.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Here's a side-geared Shay.  Really sounds like it's going somewhere, doesn't it?


Bulldozers on tracks.

They do just what they were designed to do, climb the sides of mountains hauling a full trainload of logs.

IIRC I read somewhere a Shay can manage a 1 in 8 grade.

----------


## acptulsa

> Portland has a very extensive rail system (they kept a lot of their tracks).  It's the poster child for trolleys/tram.
> 
> The system may be bankrupting the state, but they are pretty.


They are nice.  I rode on one once.  Back in the day cars were more expensive, and trolley systems could run as private enterprise.  By the end of World War II those days were gone.  Cities had to choose whether to subsidize them or let them go.  Meanwhile, postwar policy called for getting us all the oil we could burn, if we had to conquer the world to do it.  With subsidization like that, who can compete with cars?

----------


## acptulsa

> IIRC I read somewhere a Shay can manage a 1 in 8 grade.


Yeah, if it didn't have too much of a load.  Mt Ranier Scenic has a Climax, too, but it doesn't run iirc.  Read a story about one of the geared engines running upgrade.  It began slipping, and pretty soon was running away backwards because they had lost traction.  So, the crew bailed.

Dejectedly, they trudged down the track just knowing they were all fired.  Then the engine and train chugged around the corner.  It had regained traction on a flatter stretch of rail and come back to them.  They climbed on, were more careful to maintain traction uphill, and didn't tell the story until they had all retired.

Or so I heard...

----------


## AGRP

> They are nice.  I rode on one once.  Back in the day cars were more expensive, and trolley systems could run as private enterprise.  By the end of World War II those days were gone.  Cities had to choose whether to subsidize them or let them go.  Meanwhile, postwar policy called for getting us all the oil we could burn, if we had to conquer the world to do it.  With subsidization like that, who can compete with cars?


Yeah, they're a boondoggle; but I have a soft spot in my heart for them for the same reason why people here do (auto companies bought many city trolley systems).

Nothing beats going to the city and hitching a ride on the train or hearing the sounds of screeching breaks, clanging iron, and the smells/sounds of life.

Portland > Seattle

----------


## acptulsa

Well, a President Paul would never print you billions to run it.  But he would be even less likely to tell Portland's citizens they can't do it.  And he'd keep the Railroad Administration the hell out of it.

And as a completely personal opinion colored somewhat by where the people I love are, Seattle + Portland > the $#@! out of California.

----------


## nayjevin

This little guy popped into my head:






> Big Brutus is the nickname of the Bucyrus-Erie model 1850B electric shovel, which was the second largest of its type in operation in the 1960s and 1970s. It is currently the centerpiece of a mining museum in West Mineral, Kansas.
> 
> It is 160 feet (49 m) high and weighs 11 million pounds. The bucket holds 90 cubic yards (69 m3) or 150 tons. Maximum speed is 0.22 MPH. It cost $6.5 million in 1962.
> Big Brutus, while not the largest electric shovel ever built, is the largest electric shovel still in existence. The Captain, at 28 million pounds, was the largest shovel and one of the two largest land-based mobile machines ever built. It was scrapped in 1992.[1]
> 
> The Pittsburg & Midway Coal Mining Company donated Big Brutus in 1984 as the core of a mining museum which opened in 1985. In 1987, the American Society of Mechanical Engineers designated Big Brutus a Regional Historic Mechanical Engineering Landmark.[2]
> The museum offers tours as well as camping.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brutus


Grandpa took me there as a kid.  Blew my mind.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Something else we don't make anymore ^^^

CAT bought out B/E and is expected to close the deal sometime this year.

While giving lip service to maintain a US presence, I'll bet CAT will shift most, if not all, of the manufacturing process to the EU and China.

----------


## libertyjam

> Something for anyone who wants to delve deeper--route list 'on the eve of Amtrak'.  Quite a contrast to what Amtrak ran itself.
> 
> http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Am...s_pre1971.html


I notice one mistake on that list, the Texas Eagle did not terminate in Texarkana but went on down through Longview to Dallas. Don't know if it went on to Houston or not, but Amtrak was still running this train until just a few years ago.

----------


## acptulsa

No, actually they did terminate at Texarkana in April of 1971.  Back then, Texas required all railroads in the state be chartered in the state.  So, railroads had subsidiaries in the state.  This effectively turned every service in Texas into an intrastate service, at least legally.  There were services into and out of Texas, of course, but legally and officially they were their own intrastate runs.  Never mind that if the run _to_ Texas was late ending, the run _within_ Texas would be just as late starting...

So, Texas provided a unique opportunity to drop passenger services, and the state government was more than willing to allow it.  And when you had a railroad (like the MoPac at the time) which hated passenger service and would sabotage its own service just for an excuse to drop it, getting rid of Texas service was a top priority.

The route you mention was just almost the only service Amtrak added.  There was a run on an electified line that bypassed York, PA to go through no town as big, which was odd.  But few others.

----------


## acptulsa



----------


## acptulsa

Pity rail travel had to 'go out of fashion'.  All things do.




But it's a bigger shame that the government decided to eliminate any chance it had to 'come back into fashion'.

----------


## Anti Federalist

The Super Chief 1948

----------


## acptulsa

This was _not_, by the way, a real service.  Who would go from Manhattan to Tennessee via the Carolinas?!  Good tune, though.  Steam locomotives provided the rhythm and inspiration for so many great songs of so many genres (like about half of bluegrass).

----------


## Anti Federalist

> This was _not_, by the way, a real service.  Who would go from Manhattan to Tennessee via the Carolinas?!  Good tune, though.  Steam locomotives provided the rhythm and inspiration for so many great songs of so many genres (like about half of bluegrass).


Some folks claimed it was written about the Crescent Limited, or Southern Crescent, NYC to NOLA service.

But that route never went far enough west.

I've ridden that train before, all the way, from NOLA to NYC. It was a great trip.

----------


## acptulsa

> I've ridden that train before, all the way, from NOLA to NYC. It was a great trip.


It was absolutely the finest train to continue into the Amtrak era.  And deserves to have one of its Pacific locomotives preserved in the Smithsonian.  That said, the route went through Atlanta, not Chattanooga.  And you didn't get your breakfast in Carolina, either.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Pity rail travel had to 'go out of fashion'.  All things do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But it's a bigger shame that the government decided to eliminate any chance it had to 'come back into fashion'.


One day I'd like to ride that train, if I had any reason to go to Chicago.

The City of New Orleans highballing through Kentucky, 1951


Trivia: did you know that Steve Goodman wrote that song for Arlo Guthrie?

He is mentioned by name in this, the "perfect" country and western song, as the writer.

----------


## acptulsa

Saw Arlo Guthrie sing it in concert once.  He said he did a show at a bar and this guy came up to him and told him he had written a song.  Arlo thought, oh no, not again.  These songs are all so awful.  So, he said tell you what, I'll listen if you buy me a beer.

He got a song and a beer.

The Illinois Central was a great railroad too.  Of course, none of those fallen flags could compare to the megarailroads that swallowed them.  But the variety in those days was really something.  You could tell one end of the country from the other back then.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> It was absolutely the finest train to continue into the Amtrak era.  And deserves to have one of its Pacific locomotives preserved in the Smithsonian.  That said, the route went through Atlanta, not Chattanooga.  And you didn't get your breakfast in Carolina, either.


A neat old picture from the days of the Southern:

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Saw Arlo Guthrie sing it in concert once.  He said he did a show at a bar and this guy came up to him and told him he had written a song.  Arlo thought, oh no, not again.  These songs are all so awful.  So, he said tell you what, I'll listen if you buy me a beer.
> 
> He got a song and a beer.
> 
> The Illinois Central was a great railroad too.  Of course, none of those fallen flags could compare to the megarailroads that swallowed them.  But the variety in those days was really something.  You could tell one end of the country from the other back then.


I just finished a road trip that covered damn near everything on the east coast all the way out to Dallas.

The homogenization of the nation is just about complete.

Accents are disappearing, and the only difference in the surroundings is what chain store and fast food joints are in the strip malls.

----------


## acptulsa

> Accents are disappearing, and the only difference in the surroundings is what chain store and fast food joints are in the strip malls.


And even that is disappearing fast.  We're about to get Jack in the Box.  It won't stay afloat here because of me.  We already have better.

----------


## TNforPaul45

Taggart Transcontinental: From Coast to Coast, Forever!

----------


## acptulsa

And blue rail too!

----------


## acptulsa

Guess it's time for a little reluctant love for the SP...

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Guess it's time for a little reluctant love for the SP...


What's to be reluctant about?

----------


## acptulsa

> What's to be reluctant about?


Got my reputation as a Santa Fe man to consider.  Besides, they were as bad as the MoPac about killing still-popular services as though fighting the government was more important than serving the public.  Not that I'm _completely_ unsympathetic, mind you...



P.S.  Beat me to that Sunset paint scheme and made me settle for the Golden State paint scheme for variety, grrr...

----------


## Pericles

Brings back lots of memories. Another A.T.&S.F.legacy here (grandfather).

----------


## acptulsa

> Brings back lots of memories. Another A.T.&S.F.legacy here (grandfather).


Well you feel free to post any story of his you can remember.  Right here!

And check this out if you've a mind to.  You've been around long enough that you may remember when I posted it here, years ago.

http://laughterandliberty.com/the-pullman-porter/

----------


## Pericles

I still have two of his lanterns he used as a conductor. As a kid, he amazed me by being able to tell me the rail line and type of car, just be me giving him the number I saw on the side .... I was amazed by the workings of the switching yard - lots of good memories there.

----------


## acptulsa

Oh, man, I want one of those red lanterns!  Conductor--he was the boss!  Was that by chance the Cleburne yard?  If so, it's a damned shame he wasn't a shutterbug.  Lots of wonderful locomotives got serviced there.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

If the train cars were 1/4 the size, could drive themselves, and had more destinations (routers and switches) could they be routed like Ethernet packets?

----------


## acptulsa

Hope you enjoy the ACL loco I posted a pic of.  That one's from your neck of the woods.

Given enough trackage, yes.  But the correct term for this purpose is Centralized Traffic Control.  Take a good operational look at a 'hump yard' sometime, and see how they classify freight.  You may discover that the process did influence 'net design, I don't know.  Certainly etherial 'packets' require no locomotive, so maybe the influence is slight.  But I bet the logical systems involved bear resemblances.

----------


## Pericles

> Oh, man, I want one of those red lanterns!  Conductor--he was the boss!  Was that by chance the Cleburne yard?  If so, it's a damned shame he wasn't a shutterbug.  Lots of wonderful locomotives got serviced there.


Dallas yard, I also visited Cleburne (he is buried there), but he was out of Dallas. They had a massive Engine house in Cleburne, IIRC.

----------


## Pericles

> If the train cars were 1/4 the size, could drive themselves, and had more destinations (routers and switches) could they be routed like Ethernet packets?


in theory, yes. The limitations were on the mechanical switch and the manual method of tracking which train was using which section of track. Having said that, the system was very efficient, the only way to get more out of it is more switches and sidings, or coordinate the schedules for multiple trains traveling in the same direction at the same time.

If you look at the Swiss system, there is now a mimic of air travel with a hib and spoke system of regional trains that get you to and from main stations with the Inter city / regional trains which run every 30 minutes to every hour for long haul.

----------


## acptulsa

> Dallas yard, I also visited Cleburne (he is buried there), but he was out of Dallas. They had a massive Engine house in Cleburne, IIRC.


Yes indeed.  That's where they converted these...



...into these:

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> in theory, yes. The limitations were on the mechanical switch and the manual method of tracking which train was using which section of track. Having said that, the system was very efficient, the only way to get more out of it is more switches and sidings, or coordinate the schedules for multiple trains traveling in the same direction at the same time.
> 
> If you look at the Swiss system, there is now a mimic of air travel with a hib and spoke system of regional trains that get you to and from main stations with the Inter city / regional trains which run every 30 minutes to every hour for long haul.


do it with 4 lanes, and send/receive locked out to prevent bit collision.  Just like ethernet.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Got my reputation as a Santa Fe man to consider.  Besides, they were as bad as the MoPac about killing still-popular services as though fighting the government was more important than serving the public.  Not that I'm _completely_ unsympathetic, mind you...


I suppose I could root for the old home team.

Boston and Maine _Green Mountain Flyer_ sometime around 1948 I think.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Neat old video from a 1983 newscast of how the B and M became Guilford, which is still running today.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Canadian winter ops.

Tracks? We don't need no steenking tracks!

----------


## acptulsa

> do it with 4 lanes, and send/receive locked out to prevent bit collision.  Just like ethernet.


Sort of.  Usually they do it with one lane, or track, and slide the send and receive past each other on two track stretches within it.  Little easier with trains than with electrons.

And, yes, the B&M was a real innovator.  Not a huge road, but a fun history nonetheless.  Much like the New Haven, but the Boston and Maine killed a lot less passengers.  That's a good thing.  The Bangor and Aroostook was another interesting little road.  But in that corner of the world, I've got a soft spot for the big little Texas types of the Central Vermont.



Big, brawny western railroading in the east.  That's what I'm talkin' about.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> But in that corner of the world, I've got a soft spot for the big little Texas types of the Central Vermont.
> 
> 
> 
> Big, brawny western railroading in the east.  That's what I'm talkin' about.


We may not have the elevations, but a lot of the older lines have the grades.

Those Texas types were impressive machines.

According to my research there are about ten surviving but none in operational status.

You don't happen to know of one do you?

And I'm sure I could look it up but you probably already know. 

What's that pressure vessel mounted just forward of the stack?

Superheater?

----------


## acptulsa

No, don't know where any have survived.  T&P Texas types, ATSF Texas types, maybe even C&O Texas types yes.  Not these 'little' jewels.

And that's a feedwater heater.  Uses the heat in the smokebox around the lower, hidden portion of the stack to begin the water heating process as it flows into the boiler.  Specifically an Elesco brand heater.  Some roads mounted them on the pilot beam, under the smokebox door.  Some engine classes on certain roads might have them either place.  There was a Worthington heater which was smaller and square, and the B&M favored a big, horseshoe-shaped Coffin brand heater.  Most of the big engines got them in the thirties and forties.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> No, don't know where any have survived.  T&P Texas types, ATSF Texas types, maybe even C&O Texas types yes.  Not these 'little' jewels.
> 
> And that's a feedwater heater.  Uses the heat in the smokebox around the lower, hidden portion of the stack to begin the water heating process as it flows into the boiler.  Specifically an Elesco brand heater.  Some roads mounted them on the pilot beam, under the smokebox door.  Some engine classes on certain roads might have them either place.  There was a Worthington heater which was smaller and square, and the B&M favored a big, horseshoe-shaped Coffin brand heater.  Most of the big engines got them in the thirties and forties.


Cool, OK.

Efficiency related or to prevent shock cooling of the boiler tubes or crown sheet?

----------


## acptulsa

> Cool, OK.
> 
> Efficiency related or to prevent shock cooling of the boiler tubes or crown sheet?


Efficiency.  They'd run just fine without them, but use more fuel.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Efficiency.  They'd run just fine without them, but use more fuel.


I never would have thought that it would make enough of difference to matter.

Then again, marine systems are closed loop, where the feed water that is condensed is already pretty hot, so it must not have ever occurred to me.

----------


## acptulsa

When you're competing against those newfangled diesel-electric things, every little bit helps.

Ah, competition.  Amazing how much steamers improved, right there at the end.

----------


## TheBlackPeterSchiff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_rapid_transit

----------


## Anti Federalist

> When you're competing against those newfangled diesel-electric things, every little bit helps.
> 
> Ah, competition.  Amazing how much steamers improved, right there at the end.


So, a modern steam locomotive, closed steam loop, reciprocating or steam electric?

----------


## acptulsa

> So, a modern steam locomotive, closed steam loop, reciprocating or steam electric?


No closed steam loops.  They never seem to have found room for condensers.  Ships tend to be just a bit wide to fit through a railroad tunnel; this is an advantage.

There were experiments made on the C&O, N&W, PRR, B&O and UP with steam turbine-electric and geared steam turbine.  Mostly this was because they wanted electric traction from coal fuel.  None worked out very well, mostly because of complexity, turbine inefficiency and fly ash gumming up the works.  The UP had better luck with gas turbine-electric, but it couldn't match diesel efficiency.

----------


## acptulsa

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_rapid_transit


There's Gunny's data node.  But when it comes to personal transportation, I like steering wheels.  It isn't that I don't trust the centralized traffic control.  It's just that I'm a freedom-loving libertarian and like steering wheels.

Besides, the only advantage it has in efficiency is a lack of rubber tires.  All other rail efficiencies are lost.  No punching one hole in the atmosphere and pulling three hundred people through it.

We need to learn to enjoy each others' company again.  We spend too much time in individual boxes as it is...

----------


## Anti Federalist

> No closed steam loops.  They never seem to have found room for condensers.  Ships tend to be just a bit wide to fit through a railroad tunnel; this is an advantage.
> 
> There were experiments made on the C&O, N&W, PRR, B&O and UP with steam turbine-electric and geared steam turbine.  Mostly this was because they wanted electric traction from coal fuel.  None worked out very well, mostly because of complexity and fly ash gumming up the works.  The UP had better luck with gas turbine-electric, but it couldn't match diesel efficiency.


Eh, a well designed condenser is not that large at all, it could be easily mounted on a tender.

I'd really like to see the technology put back in use. I think it has a place, especially given proven coal reserves in the US.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> There's Gunny's data node.  But when it comes to personal transportation, I like steering wheels.  It isn't that I don't trust the centralized traffic control.  It's just that I'm a freedom-loving libertarian and like steering wheels.
> 
> Besides, the only advantage it has in efficiency is a lack of rubber tires.  All other rail efficiencies are lost.  No punching one hole in the atmosphere and pulling three hundred people through it.
> 
> We need to learn to enjoy each others' company again.  We spend too much time in individual boxes as it is...


I didn't realize that was a people moving pod.

Blegh.

Autodrive is coming and I dread it.

----------


## acptulsa

> I'd really like to see the technology put back in use. I think it has a place, especially given proven coal reserves in the US.


Me too.  If you want people to ride, don't spend thirteen quadzillion dollars on wazoo.  Give 'em what you know they love.  And everyone who is or was ever a child can appreciate a steam locomotive.  Is there a man with soul so dead that he cannot?

----------


## american.swan

Seoul to Chuncheon 

Seoul to Busan High Speed Rail

----------


## american.swan

Korea's KTX 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_Train_Express

----------


## acptulsa

Notes from a part of the world serious about rail travel.  We experimented with Talgo equipment once upon a time.  Thanks.  Good stuff.

----------


## eduardo89

> Korea's KTX 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_Train_Express


There's something about the KTX that I just don't like...I think it mist be it's TGV roots and the fact is it's still a push-pull trainset. I much prefer EMU high speed train sets, especially the Siemens Velaro. That to me is the most beautiful hugh speed train.

----------


## acptulsa

Well, in all fairness, Asian curvature tends to be even tighter than European standards.  This is bound to lead to a certain degree of stubbiness.  As for push-pull, well, sometimes form must follow function.  If you don't have the room to turn a transet, or even to allow the locomotive to do a runaround, you do what you must.

I've always had a soft spot for the American-style little gems of Australia, especially the Indian-Pacific.



Forty years and going strong.

----------


## eduardo89

> Well, in all fairness, Asian curvature tends to be even tighter than European standards.  This is bound to lead to a certain degree of stubbiness.  As for push-pull, well, sometimes form must follow function.  If you don't have the room to turn a transet, or even to allow the locomotive to do a runaround, you do what you must.


An EMU doesn't need to be turned around. Not any high-speed trainset i've ever seen anyway. A Siemens Velaro is an EMU, so most axels are powered and it has control cabs at either end.

And it's so pretty...




As you can tell, I'm much more a fan of modern, sleek, European trainsets than of the tank-style locomotives you see in the US (damn FRA regulations!!!)

----------


## acptulsa

Oh, yeah.  Tighter clearances (lower bridges, smaller tunnels) actually helps.  This and a wise desire for a lower center of gravity.  American railroads are prettty trucklike.  Very utilitarian equipment.  Wasn't always that way.

The _San Diegan_ utilizes push-pull with a locomotive at one end, as you undoubtedly know.  Pushing a string of cars isn't the most stable method.  Don't know that I'd even ride it.

----------


## tekkierich

> Shays are funny--all the geared engines are, if you're used to hearing the rod engines.  The things chug fifty beats a second to beat the band and you just know it's going to come around the bend at seventy, and the thing is doing twenty.
> 
> Drag 'em down to the B&O museum in Baltimore.  Another good one.  They have the oldest equipment I've ever seen in person.


Living only 15 miles from there until recently, I went to B&O for the first time last year.  It is an excellent museum.  The roof caved in a few years ago, and some of the equipment is still damaged awaiting money for restoration.

----------


## acptulsa

> The roof caved in a few years ago, and some of the equipment is still damaged awaiting money for restoration.


Wow.  Learn something every day.

Well, that roundhouse was built right after the Civil War, as I recall.  Shouldn't be surprised.  But that's awful news.  They have so much that is now one of a kind and irreplaceable.

----------


## acptulsa

The government announced today that it foiled an attempt to bring down the newly finished New World Trade Center with an Amtrak train.

'It seems we should have brought TSA into the trains stations after all,' said outgoing president Obama, exhibiting some sour grapes at the public indignation over his failed plan to spread official pedophilia to other modes of transport.

FDNY officials admitted they were a bit suspicious when a crew of thousands showed up and dug a ramp up out of the 34th St. Tunnel and graded it to ground level.  'Their hardhats looked official,' was the only comment offered.  'But it did look funny to see those tracks in the new plaza.'  The FRA has so far remained mute on the subject of how they got the tracks in the Elizabeth, NJ yard switched so they could pick up five cars of jet fuel from another siding.  NHTSA officials would only say, off the record, that it's awfully hard to get diesel fuel to explode.

When asked how the plot was finally foiled, a Homeland Security spokesman cited New York City's precaution of laying Lower Manhattan out on a grid.  'It seems that the eighty-five foot long passenger cars had trouble negotiating the corner at Park and Ninth St.'

A candlelight vigil will be held for the twelve hot dog vendors and three street guitarists who died in the resulting derailment.  A seperate service will be held for those who are actually sorry that the two mimes died as well.

----------


## acptulsa

Think I'll flesh this one out a bit for LaughterandLiberty.

http://laughterandliberty.com/terror-plot-foiled/

----------


## acptulsa

Can someone please point the steering wheel out to me?

----------


## Anti Federalist

lol ^^^

----------


## eduardo89

Why would you need a steering wheel? To derail?

----------


## acptulsa

> Why would you need a steering wheel? To derail?


Why, to hit the World Trade Center, of course.  Doesn't everybody want to do that?  Isn't that why the TSA is committing sexual assault on Amtrak passengers?

----------


## Anti Federalist

///

----------


## acptulsa

Saw that steph3n had 4884 posts, and that put me in mind of the 85 foot long, 80 mph, 762,000 lb. still and maybe forever most powerful locomotive ever created, the Union Pacific Big Boy.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...g_Boy_4023.jpg

----------


## acptulsa

Actually, I should have said most powerful _single unit_ locomotive to date.

Gotta give 8500 hp worth of credit where due...



Turbine POWER, baby!

----------


## eduardo89

> Actually, I should have said most powerful _single unit_ locomotive to date.
> 
> Gotta give 8500 hp worth of credit where due...
> 
> Turbine POWER, baby!


That's pretty amazing. I know theres a chinese locomotive that's reached close to 15,000hp but it's not a single unit, I believe it's a double unit.

----------


## acptulsa

> That's pretty amazing. I know theres a chinese locomotive that's reached close to 15,000hp but it's not a single unit, I believe it's a double unit.


Yeah, easy to make horsepower from electricity.  This two unit gem had the turbine in one unit and all the other machinery in the other.  They were thirsty, which is why it has a steam locomotive-style tender.  Of course, steam loco tenders carried more water than fuel; these tanks were all fuel.

They were made by GE in the 'fifties--up in Erie, PA--and the turbines made 10,000 gross horsepower.  They didn't last long.  They used almost as much fuel at idle as at full power, so you had to keep them moving.

15,000 hp is an interesting number.  Methods of measuring horsepower actually varies from country to country, at least in automotive applications.  So, sometimes it's hard to compare.  Certainly measurement methods vary from steam to ________-electric.

But still nothing beats the Big Boy.  Not really any point in making ________- electric locos that big and powerful, as one engineer can run almost any number of them from one cab 'in multiple'.  Might as well make them more flexible.

----------


## TheBlackPeterSchiff

> Interesting you should mention it.  A little while before Amtrak, a thing called Auto Rail was created.  This was a combination of passenger train and auto transport freight train which took seasonal 'snowbirds' and their cars to Florida for the winter.


They have these in europe.

Which begs the question that would inevitably come up. 

"Europe's train system is govt ran and It's efficient, why cant ours be efficient?"

----------


## acptulsa

Less space, as a general rule, between their cities.  Higher fuel prices, which leads to significantly higher ridership.  And competition.

Say what?  Governments hate competition!  Yeah, but if you go from Rome to Amsterdam, you could route through France and Belgium or through Switzerland and Germany.

----------


## eduardo89

> They have these in europe.
> 
> Which begs the question that would inevitably come up. 
> 
> "Europe's train system is govt ran and It's efficient, why cant ours be efficient?"


Yeah I've been on many of these "auto-trains", theyres quite a few in switzerland to go through tunnels in the mountains.

Not all European government-run rail companies are efficient. If anything, it's THOSE that are inefficient. Take a look at DB in Germany, the reason it's efficient is it's run as a for-profit corporation, just that the entire stock is owned by the government. Same with SNCF in France.

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

Amtrak still has the train that you can put your cars on, it's called the Auto Train and it runs between Sanford, Florida (Orlando) and Lorton, Virginia (Washington D.C.). It used to be a private company that made money however went bankrupt after a failed expansion to Louisville. The line was plagued with derailments due to the poorly maintained tracks. Amtrak took over operations and it's one of their most successful long distance trains today. 

And I believe the OP is mistaken in his original post. Amtrak did not take over Penn Central, that was Conrail. It was later split up between Norfolk Southern and CSX. However there are some good nuggets regarding how the ICC nearly bankrupt all railroads in the US. The Seaboard Coast Line Railroad was another one that found their passenger trains (mainly the New York to Florida ones) worth keeping however turned their operations over to Amtrak. The Southern Railroad continued to operate the Southern Crescent (today now known as the Crescent) between New York and New Orleans before handing that train over to Amtrak. 

I doubt we'd see high speed trains running 150+ mph due to the land acquisitions required but the Atlantic Coast Line used to run their New York to Florida trains as fast as 100 mph. Of course the ICC stepped in after a major wreck occurred (in Ohio?) and mandated that all passenger trains operate no faster than 79 mph unless they pay up and install cab signals.

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

As far as the European government owned railroads being run more efficiently than ours it is because of the money that their government invests in these lines. We do not do that here. In one year alone the highways are receiving more money than Amtrak has in its 40 year history. I'm not advocating for larger Amtrak subsidies but it's not like they take up a huge portion of our debt like health care and defense. I do however think intercity rail can be profitable, that's only if you don't include capital costs. I somewhat like the British system where the government owns the rails while private companies run the trains. 

Transportation is neglected in presidential debates and should be talked about as opposed to a candidates religion or sexual orientation.

----------


## acptulsa

I did not say that the government took over PennCentral, did I?  Maybe I should read again and see if I was unclear.  I said they took over all but one of the electric lines connecting New York, Washington, and Harrisburg, or at least I meant to.  These were just a fraction of the PC mileage.  And they bought (at a discount) the New Haven 'Shoreline'.  The government owns these rails outright.

Yes, I did not include capital costs in my assessment that passenger trains could make a little money.  Freight pays capital costs; one of the advantages to offering passenger service is that it's good advertising for a road's freight service.  It certainly helps shippers see where a road goes and how quickly it can get from point A to point B.

Did not know the Auto Train was back.  Thanks for the update.  Good news!  I think it's a brilliant concept.  It never ran in Ohio.  I know you didn't say it did, but with AT and mention of the Ohio wreck in the same paragraph, I don't want people confused.  AT ran (and probably still runs) on SCL (now part of CSX) rail.

Can't say I'm a fan of the British system myself, but you're right about highways (and airports, for that matter) getting a lot of subsidy from the federal government.  I'd rather see government involvement and interference in the rail business just pretty much stop.  But no, that sure wouldn't make for a level playing field in the face of that road and air support, would it?  Sometimes I think, when I look at EPA regulations on coal plants, automotive safety regulations that makes cars heavier than they need to be, air travel support and other things, that the whole American government is out to get us burning as much oil as possible.  Despite their supposed concern for 'global warming' and other things.

Thanks for the thoughtful posts, 999.  I, too, think this is an important conversation!

----------


## acptulsa

I got my 200th rep point and my third pip from CaseyJones.  What could possibly be more appropriate?  



Thanks, Casey!

----------


## Anti Federalist

Two FP9s, still in active (if limited) service, on a commercial freight railway, right near me.

PAR 1 and PAR 2 hauling an OCS (Office Car Special) from NY state to Maine on two different occasions this summer.

Pan Am Railways 21 May.



Haulin' ass through Shirley, MA, 23 August. Combined PAR with Norfolk and Southern.



From another angle:

----------


## acptulsa

Sweet!  Thanks, AF.  That's nice to see.

Gotta love those Canadians for not only buying streamlined power late, but taking damned good care of it over the years.  Sometimes I think that if it weren't for them, _we_ wouldn't have much of _our_ rail heritage left.

Here's a little something from the Alco side of the exact same coin--a pair of Canadian-only models designed in Schenectady that have found their way south of the border:

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Sweet!  Thanks, AF.  That's nice to see.
> 
> Gotta love those Canadians for not only buying streamlined power late, but taking damned good care of it over the years.  Sometimes I think that if it weren't for them, _we_ wouldn't have much of _our_ rail heritage left.


No kidding.

Speaking of Canadian motive power, Conway's 4740 made the run through Crawford Notch, all the way to the mainline, this summer, first time steam had been on the mainline since 1953.

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

I love OCS. Feels like a blast from the past. 

Oh how things could've been without government regulation and intervention.

----------


## acptulsa

> I love OCS. Feels like a blast from the past. 
> 
> Oh how things could've been without government regulation and intervention.


Indeed.  Would have taken rail a little while to 'come back into style', but we could have seen some spectacular ways to get around since the 1980s.

----------


## acptulsa

Northern Pacific 2604--just because.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Boston and Maine 3006...just because.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Boston and Maine 3705, again, just because.

----------


## reillym

> I did not say that the government took over PennCentral, did I?  Maybe I should read again and see if I was unclear.  I said they took over all but one of the electric lines connecting New York, Washington, and Harrisburg, or at least I meant to.  These were just a fraction of the PC mileage.  And they bought (at a discount) the New Haven 'Shoreline'.  The government owns these rails outright.
> 
> Yes, I did not include capital costs in my assessment that passenger trains could make a little money.  Freight pays capital costs; one of the advantages to offering passenger service is that it's good advertising for a road's freight service.  It certainly helps shippers see where a road goes and how quickly it can get from point A to point B.
> 
> Did not know the Auto Train was back.  Thanks for the update.  Good news!  I think it's a brilliant concept.  It never ran in Ohio.  I know you didn't say it did, but with AT and mention of the Ohio wreck in the same paragraph, I don't want people confused.  AT ran (and probably still runs) on SCL (now part of CSX) rail.
> 
> Can't say I'm a fan of the British system myself, but you're right about highways (and airports, for that matter) getting a lot of subsidy from the federal government.  I'd rather see government involvement and interference in the rail business just pretty much stop.  But no, that sure wouldn't make for a level playing field in the face of that road and air support, would it?  Sometimes I think, when I look at EPA regulations on coal plants, automotive safety regulations that makes cars heavier than they need to be, air travel support and other things, that the whole American government is out to get us burning as much oil as possible.  Despite their supposed concern for 'global warming' and other things.
> 
> Thanks for the thoughtful posts, 999.  I, too, think this is an important conversation!


Yeah, that whole "global warming" thing. That thing that 98% of climate scientists support with valid evidence. 

But, yeah, you are right. There is a world-wide conspiracy among scientists about climate change. Yup. Sounds right.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Yeah, that whole "global warming" thing. That thing that 98% of climate scientists support with valid evidence. 
> 
> But, yeah, you are right. There is a world-wide conspiracy among scientists about climate change. Yup. Sounds right.


So, assuming that you are correct, (which I don't grant for a second) de-industrialization, world government and carbon taxes that only wealthy nations pay will solve the problem, how, exactly?

----------


## Anti Federalist

Global warming baby!!!

----------


## Seraphim

Climate change is real - because our solar system is always changing.

Human induced climate change is the fraud.




> Yeah, that whole "global warming" thing. That thing that 98% of climate scientists support with valid evidence. 
> 
> But, yeah, you are right. There is a world-wide conspiracy among scientists about climate change. Yup. Sounds right.

----------


## flightlesskiwi

> Global warming baby!!!


i know, right!!!  the horror!! (cumbres & toltec locomotive polluting northern NM)

Attachment 572

----------


## Anti Federalist

> i know, right!!!  the horror!! (cumbres & toltec locomotive polluting northern NM)
> 
> Attachment 572


That is one of the sweetest lines in the world.

----------


## flightlesskiwi

> That is one of the sweetest lines in the world.


planning a trip in a few weeks!!!  i have lived 5 hours away from train bliss for over 3 years and still haven't made my way up.  sad, i know!!!!!  perfect timing though.  fall.  *drool*

----------


## Anti Federalist

> planning a trip in a few weeks!!!  i have lived 5 hours away from train bliss for over 3 years and still haven't made my way up.  sad, i know!!!!!  perfect timing though.  fall.  *drool*


I do envy you the trip.

----------


## acptulsa

> planning a trip in a few weeks!!!  i have lived 5 hours away from train bliss for over 3 years and still haven't made my way up.  sad, i know!!!!!  perfect timing though.  fall.  *drool*


Dress warm.  I'm here to tell you it even gets cool in mid-summer at Cumbres Pass, 10,500 feet up or so.  Be sure to look for the purple pine cones.  And don't be afraid, but it's one of the kinkiest lines in the world--iirc it crosses the NM-CO border thirteen times.  At one point, a long train has both ends in one state and the rest of it is in the other.

As for those clouds of smoke, that's just the fireman making for a prettier picture.  Believe me, they watch for photographers and pour on the coal on purpose.  Even so, there are so many people on the train that this is less pollution than enough automobiles to haul them all would produce.  That's why I thought it ridiculous when Dubya passed emissions control laws for locomotives.  Trains aren't the disease, they're the cure.

As for steamers, they have the smartest engine control computer in the world.  A human fireman may not be able to react quickly enough to maintain all the details of an internal combustion engine turning thousands of rpm.  But a steamer is external combustion, and a human can do a better job of firing the kettle than a computer.  If one oxygen sensor goes out on your new car, you might as well just shut it down and call a wrecker.  If a gauge or two malfunctions on a steamer, on the other hand, a fireman may have to be conservative but that doesn't mean the train will come to a complete stop...

----------


## acptulsa

> I've always had a soft spot for the American-style little gems of Australia, especially the Indian-Pacific.
> 
> 
> 
> Forty years and going strong.


The Indian-Pacific Express has been privatized.  So, no one--no one--can convince me that privatization of passenger trains cannot be done, or cannot be successful, because here is proof positive to the contrary.

----------


## acptulsa

A little advice on uphill battles:



Get help, work as a team, and don't stop for anything until you get to the top of that hill!

In an uphill battle, momentum isn't everything--it's the only thing.

----------


## acptulsa

Operating a steam locomotive is an art form.  Operating one in helper service was even more of one.  You not only had to be able to do it, you had to be able to do it in concert with a variety of other crews, each of which had their own style, and always in the most demanding of circumstances--at the edge of the envelope as far as the engine's ability to put power to the rail without slipping her wheels.

We're going to have to work together that well, even if we are a herd of cats.  And keep pushing uphill without rest, too.  Our nation hangs in the balance.

----------


## Anti Federalist

+rep for an awesome analogy.

Going here Friday:







> Operating a steam locomotive is an art form.  Operating one in helper service was even more of one.  You not only had to be able to do it, you had to be able to do it in concert with a variety of other crews, each of which had their own style, and always in the most demanding of circumstances--at the edge of the envelope as far as the engine's ability to put power to the rail without slipping her wheels.
> 
> We're going to have to work together that well, even if we are a herd of cats.  And keep pushing uphill without rest, too.  Our nation hangs in the balance.

----------


## Anti Federalist

OK, pics and a short description from a day of steam railroading in NH.

NH Cog Railway, #9 "Waumbek" built in Manchester NH in 1908.


View out of the rear window, looking over the boiler and cab, back down to the "Jacob's Ladder" section of track. 37% grade!


At the summit of Mt. Washington, it's hard to see in this pic, but that line and shimmer in the distance is the ocean, over 100 miles away.


To give you a better idea of the "Jacob's Ladder".


Now, on to the Conway Scenic with Canadian Pacific 0-6-0, #7470, built 1921, as motive power.

Deadheading into position to pick up the inbound consist.


Cab's eye view on the return trip from the observation platform.


Returning to the yard.


On the turntable.


Backing into the barn for the night.


From earlier this summer, Railfan Run from North Conway to Fabyans.

----------


## acptulsa

That little switcher sure looks funny pulling that fine old passenger 'varnish', but that's all right.  She provides the sound and the smell, and the fact that she's slow just lets you enjoy the ride a little longer.

They've got a cog road up Pike's Peak, too, but unfortunately they shed the old equipment long ago.  The diesel transet is definitely nice, though, and the view is spectacular.  The ride is easy to recommend.  But that cog road you found is enough to make even the most ardently partisan Coloradoan jealous.  Thanks for the tips; I'm going to come ride that cog road.

And thanks for the pics!

----------


## Anti Federalist

> That little switcher sure looks funny pulling that fine old passenger 'varnish', but that's all right.  She provides the sound and the smell, and the fact that she's slow just lets you enjoy the ride a little longer.
> 
> They've got a cog road up Pike's Peak, too, but unfortunately they shed the old equipment long ago.  The diesel transet is definitely nice, though, and the view is spectacular.  The ride is easy to recommend.  But that cog road you found is enough to make even the most ardently partisan Coloradoan jealous.  Thanks for the tips; I'm going to come ride that cog road.
> 
> And thanks for the pics!


Get over to NH quick, because they've replaced most all the steam with diesel hydraulic "travesty tractors".

They run one steam a day at 0830 every morning in season.

They are one broken crank or failed crown sheet away from retiring it all.

That's why I paid the price to do it now, while I still had the chance.

----------


## acptulsa

> They are one broken crank or failed crown sheet away from retiring it all.


Damn.

Well, I'm not in a position to do it _that_ quick.  So, I sure hope you told them to make sure they keep enough water in the glass...

----------


## flightlesskiwi

i have to report with sadness that my cumbres/toltec trip is in question.    i may have to push it off until the spring.  i can't express how very disappointed i am right now.  especially after seeing AF's pics from his summer excursions.

----------


## acptulsa

> i have to report with sadness that my cumbres/toltec trip is in question.


Argh!

Well, I rode it in--was it 1978?  They have good facilities up in Chama where they can fabricate a lot of parts, and I'm pretty sure they won't be letting any burned crown sheets or broken pins stop them any time soon.  So, don't give up!  It would be regrettable if you did.

Oh, and for those who don't understand 'water in the glass':  The fire in a steam locomotive firebox is so hot that it will melt the steel above it (the 'crown sheet') unless there is water on top of it to absorb that heat.  The fireman maintains the pump that feeds water into the boiler, and he must ensure that there's enough water to cover that sheet of steel.  Otherwise, he can not only 'burn it up' but he's not boiling water, and it's quite an impediment to progress in a steam locomotive if you're not boiling water.  So, since he can't see inside the boiler, there's a vertical glass tube in the cab very much like the ones on the front old-fashioned coffee pots.  It's piped in, so if there's water in the glass tube, there's water in the boiler.

----------


## acptulsa

What this thread needs is a little more superpower on roller bearings.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Damn.
> 
> Well, I'm not in a position to do it _that_ quick.  So, I sure hope you told them to make sure they keep enough water in the glass...


I sure as $#@! did, I raised hell with management all day, about how this was my last trip here, and how can you disgrace a Heritage RR with these infernal machines.

It's privately held, if I ever came into the funds, I'd buy the whole damn thing and put all that steam back online.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> i have to report with sadness that my cumbres/toltec trip is in question.    i may have to push it off until the spring.  i can't express how very disappointed i am right now.  especially after seeing AF's pics from his summer excursions.


That is too bad, now is the perfect time of year for it too.

$#@!...

----------


## acptulsa

The Santa Fe mainline in the Rockies was an awesome thing.  But in Kansas and Oklahoma, the Santa Fe was a more intimate thing.  The road had many faces.

----------


## Anti Federalist

LOL ^^^

----------


## acptulsa

> LOL ^^^


See how you are?  That's real Western History, right there.

Fine.  Back to the Other Santa Fe.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Is 3751 still in service?

And who could not LOL at "Collinsville"?




> See how you are?  That's real Western History, right there.
> 
> Fine.  Back to the Other Santa Fe.

----------


## Anti Federalist

I'm building one of these, there just ain't no question about it anymore.



Bunch of good videos from the 2011 event here:

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ad.php?t=12946

----------


## acptulsa

> Is 3751 still in service?
> 
> And who could not LOL at "Collinsville"?


Back in service.  She's one of the most improved locomotives ever, with a driver increase from 73" to 80" and a host of improvements.



And Collinsville is actually a nice little 'burb, and has had the wisdom to do neat things with their downtown.  But it occurs to me that you're right, it is amusing.  Especially considering that's a pretty short depot.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> See how you are?  That's real Western History, right there.


Just to prove we *can* do it back east when we want to.

In NJ of all places.

----------


## Anti Federalist

A little personal railroad history.

My grandfather survived this wreck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodbridge_train_wreck

----------


## acptulsa

> Just to prove we *can* do it back east when we want to.


The C&O could do it anywhere.  As far as I know, the Santa Fe was the only road the Pennsy ever leased power from, and the C&O was the only road that designed power for the Pennsy.

You have got to get to the museum in Baltimore, man.  Take a nice look at their 4-6-6-6 Super Allegheny.




> My grandfather survived this wreck.


Ouch!

----------


## acptulsa

What steamers had that diesels don't...




...is one hell of a good beat!

Well, that was _one_ thing they had that diesels don't.

One cycle engine, two cylinders, four beats to the revolution, and good luck keeping up!  

Well, AF, what do you think of those pedestal tenders with the water scoops?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Well, AF, what do you think...


I think I am old enough to remember seeing the water troughs on some Pennsy trackage before they tore them all out. Out by Jim Thorpe, PA, IIRC. I always wondered how they kept them from freezing in the winter.

I think Benny Goodman was a hell of a composer and musician.

I think Gene Krupa was a *machine* on drums.

I think I'm going to ride over to Portland tomorrow and see if the Maine Narrow Gauge is running steam for their Polar Express event. They just got the staybolts renewed on Vulcan Iron Works number 4 and they should be running it all of December. The Maine 2 footers have a unique history.

I think (and yeah I know, the good old days weren't always all that good) that I was born in the wrong era.

----------


## acptulsa

> I think (and yeah I know, the good old days weren't always all that good) that I was born in the wrong era.


I think that sometimes myself.  Especially when I see the Constitution shredded in the Senate, and wonder what I can do to awaken my fellow Americans and get them pissed off about it...

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I think that sometimes myself.  Especially when I see the Constitution shredded in the Senate, and wonder what I can do to awaken my fellow Americans and get them pissed off about it...


There has always been tyranny, there has always been oppression, there has always been human nature working in the hearts of men, both for good and bad.

What is different this time around is this: in eras and epochs previous, if you were brave enough and courageous enough, you could leave, the world was still a big place, and if all you wanted to do was leave and live your life in peace, there was a chance to do that.

At no time *ever* in human history has the technology existed to watch every person, every minute of every day.

It does now and the grid is getting tighter, the mesh finer, every passing minute.

----------


## flightlesskiwi

> I think (and yeah I know, the good old days weren't always all that good) that I was born in the wrong era.





> I think that sometimes myself.  Especially when I see the Constitution shredded in the Senate, and wonder what I can do to awaken my fellow Americans and get them pissed off about it...


you know what, guys.  you were born precisely in the right era.  this world needs men like you both right now-- you guys are a sort of gatekeeper.  the paradigm is shifting, that's for sure.  

but... you both are old enough to remember the way things used to be before complete tyranny took hold; you're contrary and genuine enough to analyze and express what you see happening; you both are engaged in the world and possess a knowledge of history that you didn't have direct dealings with, but you still find time to study and share; and ya'll are old and wise enough to understand the ideology that this country was founded upon and at the same time you are still young enough to attempt to preserve those ideals.

/end sentiment.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Why thank you.

I can't speak for acptulsa, but that's the only thing that keeps me going.




> you know what, guys.  you were born precisely in the right era.  this world needs men like you both right now-- you guys are a sort of gatekeeper.  the paradigm is shifting, that's for sure.  
> 
> but... you both are old enough to remember the way things used to be before complete tyranny took hold; you're contrary and genuine enough to analyze and express what you see happening; you both are engaged in the world and possess a knowledge of history that you didn't have direct dealings with, but you still find time to study and share; and ya'll are old and wise enough to understand the ideology that this country was founded upon and at the *same time you are still young enough to attempt to preserve those ideals.*
> 
> /end sentiment.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Family fun tonight, went over to the Maine Narrow Gauge museum in Portland for their "Polar Express" event.

Great to see number 4 back in service.

All the kids had great time, and I got a kick out of riding equipment that I rode 40 years ago at Edaville Mass. as a young boy.

The volunteers there did a fantastic job of getting number 4 back in shape, she looked and worked great for a little 125psi 2 footer.

ETA - An added bonus, since they got steam up and running again, all the original heating equipment worked in the coaches.

----------


## BattleFlag1776

> Family fun tonight, went over to the Maine Narrow Gauge museum in Portland for their "Polar Express" event.
> 
> Great to see number 4 back in service.
> 
> All the kids had great time, and I got a kick out of riding equipment that I rode 40 years ago at Edaville Mass. as a young boy.
> 
> The volunteers there did a fantastic job of getting number 4 back in shape, she looked and worked great for a little 125psi 2 footer.


Well, that has to be neat.  I've never laid eyes on or had any contact with anything other than that which runs on standard gauge track.  

How far does the line you were on run?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Well, that has to be neat.  I've never laid eyes on or had any contact with anything other than that which runs on standard gauge track.  
> 
> How far does the line you were on run?


Not far at all, the trackage was standard gauge running along an industrial spur at the port, the museum re-gauged it, it only totals about 2 miles, *maybe*.

Maine had, at the turn of the last century, one of the most extensive two foot gauge networks in the world.

There are, IIRC only 6 locomotives left in the world that were part of that.

Monson number 2, 4 and 7 are at the MNG museum in Portland, they were part of the Edaville RR in Mass until it went tits up back in the 80s.

The Wiscassett, Waterville and Farmington RR, is much more impressive line, I think they are up to about 10 miles now, all running along the original ROW from the 1890s.

They are also not afraid to *run* Vulcan number 10, one of the few two footers from outside Maine (she was built for a Louisiana sugar plantation in 1904).

----------


## Anti Federalist

Bump

----------


## acptulsa

That two footer looks like quite a thrill ride.  Especially with that off-camber curve in the line.  Hard to believe that something slower than a roller coaster could be scarier, but that looks like just the ticket!

Looks like serious fun.  Are there any two footers besides Maine and India?  Can't think of any.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> That two footer looks like quite a thrill ride.  Especially with that off-camber curve in the line.  Hard to believe that something slower than a roller coaster could be scarier, but that looks like just the ticket!


I've got a buddy of mine that volunteers there, I have been meaning to get over that way for quite a while now, but the timing just never worked out.

They have a really top notch little operation going there, with lots of young folks in the mix as well.




> Looks like serious fun.  Are there any two footers besides Maine and India?  Can't think of any.


There's a fellow in PA that has a private line on his own land that runs some two foot Shays. (last operational ones in the world IIRC)

I think there are still a few two foot lines in South America working plantations.

But not many, that's for sure.

You didn't miss that pic MNG #4 in post 200, did you?

----------


## Anti Federalist

The Ron Paul Express.

----------


## Pericles

> The Ron Paul Express.


Challenger?

----------


## acptulsa

> Challenger?


Very good!

Yes indeed.  The UP runs her and a Northern type with a nice heavy streamlined excursion train on a regular basis.  Go to their website to see when and where and book a ride!

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Challenger?


Yup, that's it. The largest and one of the fastest steam locomotives in existance.




> Very good!
> 
> Yes indeed.  The UP runs her and a Northern type with a nice heavy streamlined excursion train on a regular basis.  Go to their website to see when and where and book a ride!


I will *have* to get out west to do that one day.

----------


## flightlesskiwi

> Yup, that's it. The largest and one of the fastest steam locomotives in existance.
> 
> 
> 
> I will *have* to get out west to do that one day.


apparently did an excursion starting in a town extremely close to me back in November.  had no idea.  kids would have loved to to have seen it roll through.

meh.  that's one of the few redeeming things i have found about the southwest:  the trains.

----------


## acptulsa

> Yup, that's it. The largest and one of the fastest steam locomotives in existance.


Oh, the old articulated isn't that damned fast.  With all the Northerns and Pacifics in running condition, she's pretty far down the list.  But she may well be the most powerful single unit locomotive operating in the world.  I'd be surprised if she isn't.




> You didn't miss that pic MNG #4 in post 200, did you?


Ought to be on elevated tracks somewhere.  Too bad Manhattanites don't have enough class to make the city make an exception to their anti-smoke ordinance so she could run down there.

That's right, folks.  A hundred twenty years ago, these...




> 


...used to run on the EL tracks right over people's heads.

Don't make me make a terrible pun about the fun of Forney-cation.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Oh, the old articulated isn't that damned fast.  With all the Northerns and Pacifics in running condition, she's pretty far down the list.  But she may well be the most powerful single unit locomotive operating in the world.  I'd be surprised if she isn't.


Can't they run around 100? I thought I read that somewhere. IIRC the speed record is 129 MPH help by a German locomotive. 100 would have to get her in the top tier, no?




> Don't make me make a terrible pun about the fun of Forney-cation.


Plus rep, that made me LoL.

I *do* enjoy this thread...

----------


## acptulsa

> Can't they run around 100? I thought I read that somewhere. IIRC the speed record is 129 MPH help by a German locomotive. 100 would have to get her in the top tier, no?


Nah.  As I understand it, they're overstressed at ninety.  And the forward end of the articulated chassis is straining the flanges pretty hard, too.  That's a lot of piston thrust for a chassis that is sliding back and forth under it's source of weight.

Hell, the hundred year old Santa Fe Pacific on the former Texas State Railroad could turn a hundred, if they wanted to strain the old girl that way.  And 3751 (the Santa Fe Northern I posted a pic of a few pages ago) could haul a dozen streamlined 85 footers at 120.  The UP's other old steamer, the Northern 844, could do at least 110 if they felt extra frisky.

She's way down the list.




> Plus rep, that made me LoL.
> 
> I *do* enjoy this thread...


You say you're just the masochist for my _pun_ishment?  Or is it just that you're railfan enough to enjoy seeing Forney's name under any circumstances?  Either way, I understand.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Nah.  As I understand it, they're overstressed at ninety.  And the forward end of the articulated chassis is straining the flanges pretty hard, too.  That's a lot of piston thrust for a chassis that is sliding back and forth under it's source of weight.
> 
> Hell, the hundred year old Santa Fe Pacific on the former Texas State Railroad could turn a hundred, if they wanted to strain the old girl that way.  And 3751 (the Santa Fe Northern I posted a pic of a few pages ago) could haul a dozen streamlined 85 footers at 120.  The UP's other old steamer, the Northern 844, could do at least 110 if they felt extra frisky.
> 
> She's way down the list.


Too big for her own good, eh? But still, power, power, power.

Speaking of 100 MPH, and I may have mentioned it already, but why can't we build anything like this, here?

If the feckless Brits can, we sure should be able to...






> You say you're just the masochist for my _pun_ishment?  Or is it just that you're railfan enough to enjoy seeing Forney's name under any circumstances?  Either way, I understand.


I would say the latter, but I still enjoy a good pun.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Conway Scenic's 7470 again, on their _"Polar Express"_ run this weekend.

Nothing to *see* in this video.

It's all audio, but worth a listen, I think.






A daytime video from last year.




And for the purists, no, 573 was not pushing at the back.

When Conway RR runs northbound to the notch or to Bartlett, there is no "run around" and the train is too long to push back, so they pull outbound and then 573 deadheads back.

On the "Polar Express" runs, 573 also provides electric power.

On the winter "Steam in the Snow" runs, she disconnects and returns later.

But that's all 4740 pulling up grade in this shot.

----------


## Anti Federalist

I'd like one of these.

Clark's Trading Post NH.

----------


## Anti Federalist

///

----------


## acptulsa

A little something available from snowcrest.net.  For all of you who miss the days when Alfred P. Sloan was still around to ensure General Motors made good stuff.



And because this thread wanted bumping.  The free market can do so much good for us all.  And we need to recapture the initiative in the national conversation so we can tell the whole country about it.

----------


## RickBelmont

Best in the world:
http://www.deutschebahn.com/site/bahn/de/start.html

----------


## RickBelmont

> ///


 True, but British Rail is very expensive to operate and their municipal rail isn't very good. Riding in the tube isn't fun at all.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Yes.




> A little something available from snowcrest.net.  For all of you who miss the days when Alfred P. Sloan was still around to ensure General Motors made good stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> *And because this thread wanted bumping.  The free market can do so much good for us all.  And we need to recapture the initiative in the national conversation so we can tell the whole country about it*.

----------


## acptulsa

Why we need government out of trains:  Private enterprise could actually make it classy enough to work.

http://www.winetrain.com/

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Why we need government out of trains:  Private enterprise could actually make it classy enough to work.
> 
> http://www.winetrain.com/


My folks rode that years ago on a California visit, they had a great time.

Watch CARB shut them down.

Oh, and was just reading up on this, yes we *CAN* do it back East.

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/allegheny/

New cost in 1941 - $270,000

----------


## acptulsa

Yes, the did get the job done in the east.  And I do love the Super Allegheny.  They have one down in Baltimore.

It's big.

But I have a soft spot for the B&O, and their Yellowstones.



Those and the President class P-7 Pacifics...

----------


## eduardo89

Do you have any of these in the US?

----------


## acptulsa

> Do you have any of these in the US?


http://drgw.free.fr/DRGW/MOW/Snow/Ro...seNeige_en.htm

----------


## eduardo89

> http://drgw.free.fr/DRGW/MOW/Snow/Ro...seNeige_en.htm


Awesome. 

Have you ever seen them in person? They're quite a sight!

----------


## Anti Federalist

This is that same WW&F number 10 that I posted.







> Do you have any of these in the US?

----------


## Anti Federalist

How we *used* to get things done...

----------


## eduardo89

Too much train porn.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Too much train porn.


It's the only train pr0n thread on the board, AFAIK.

----------


## eduardo89

> It's the only train pr0n thread on the board, AFAIK.


Some people just don't understand how sexy a vehicle that runs on rails is. Their loss.

----------


## Elwar

Private rails could evolve as one of many competitive alternatives to the private road system.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Private rails could evolve as one of many competitive alternatives to the private road system.


The problem I have with both is when eminent domain is used to take private property for private gain.

It was RR ED cases from the 19th century that were used as precedent for the awful _Kelo V. New London_ decision.

----------


## Elwar

> The problem I have with both is when eminent domain is used to take private property for private gain.


What do you think about the private power/cable lines scattered all over the country?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> What do you think about the private power/cable lines scattered all over the country?


The same exact way.

So does RP.

I ran these ads about the "Northern Pass" project in four NH newspapers, where people are likely to lose their property to ED for power lines from a foreign company.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Another neat Polar Express pic of  MNG #4

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

Being a Floridian, I'd love to see this happen. 100% privately funded intercity passenger rail, independent from Amtrak. The FEC (the rail line that runs up the Florida East Coasthence its name) is a well run railroad and I wouldn't be surprised if this actually does happen. It might also encourage other private enterprises to bid on Amtrak routes in the future. 

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/flo...ida-2012-03-22




> MIAMI, Mar 22, 2012 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- Florida East Coast Industries, Inc. (FECI), the owner of Floridas premier passenger rail corridor, is developing a privately owned, operated and maintained passenger rail service to connect South Florida and Orlando, which will be operational in 2014. By connecting the most visited city in the United States with South Floridas business and vacation destinations, the passenger rail project, called All Aboard Florida, is designed to serve Floridas growing number of business travelers, as well as families and tourists traveling for pleasure.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Being a Floridian, I'd love to see this happen. 100% privately funded intercity passenger rail, independent from Amtrak. The FEC (the rail line that runs up the Florida East Coast…hence its name) is a well run railroad and I wouldn't be surprised if this actually does happen. It might also encourage other private enterprises to bid on Amtrak routes in the future. 
> 
> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/flo...ida-2012-03-22


Used to get a kick out of watching the FEC haul ass in PBC.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Funny this got bumped, I was just coming in to post this.

http://www.thefutureneedsus.com/crescent-corridor/

----------


## Danke

Where has acptulsa been?  Found him:

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Where has acptulsa been?  Found him:


Double Rainbow!!!!!

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Train Porn:

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

> Being a Floridian, I'd love to see this happen. 100% privately funded intercity passenger rail, independent from Amtrak. The FEC (the rail line that runs up the Florida East Coasthence its name) is a well run railroad and I wouldn't be surprised if this actually does happen. It might also encourage other private enterprises to bid on Amtrak routes in the future. 
> 
> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/flo...ida-2012-03-22


Looks like service is a go:




> Its full-speed ahead on a privately financed, $1 billion plan that will launch fast, hourly passenger rail service between downtown Miami and Orlando by 2014, Florida East Coast Industries officials said.


http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/08/0...#storylink=cpy

----------


## acptulsa

> Looks like service is a go:


Score one for private enterprise.  Let's hope they're enough of a success to inspire imitation.

----------


## Pericles

Good to see you again - don't remember if I mentioned this:

http://www.trinityrailwayexpress.org/index.html

----------


## Pericles

//

----------


## acptulsa

> Good to see you again - don't remember if I mentioned this:
> 
> http://www.trinityrailwayexpress.org/index.html


Another model.  This one for how local government doesn't need, and is better off without the interference of, the federal government.

----------


## Anti Federalist

You know what, I'm tired of all the bull$#@! right now.

Time for some train porn.

Black River and Western in NJ has just completed repairs to Alco 2-8-0 number 60, built in 1937.

Here she is a couple of weeks ago, under steam and her own power for the first time in 12 years.

Kudos to the crew that restored her, she looks gorgeous.

----------


## acptulsa

Train porn, Great Plains style:

http://www.rail-videos.net/video/view.php?id=128

http://www.rail-videos.net/video/view.php?id=125

----------


## acptulsa

Occurs to me that when I showed some particularly pretty steam, diesel-electric and electric locomotives at the beginning of this thread, I missed something:




Burning oil like it was going out of style.  Which it was...

Most of these are 1-Class two unit turbines.  Ten thousand gross horsepower out of the turbine, 8500 net at the rail.  Pretty damned impressive.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Yes, yes it is. ^^^^

----------


## acptulsa

> Yes, yes it is. ^^^^


They were very impressive.  But due to their unslakable thirst, they weren't exactly successful.

They were, however, far more successful than _this_ turbine-powered railcar:



Hit 183 mph.  Hey, Obama.  Private enterprise had your high speed rail forty-five years ago...

----------


## Anti Federalist

The few Chinese manufactured products I'd be in favor of importing, LOL.

Wonder if you could still do this, this article was from back in 86, the Essex RR is still running the engine they bought and I think 142 ended up in NJ on a short line.


*Steam Rides Again! China Engines, U.S. Rails*

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/12/25/us...-us-rails.html

AP
Published: December 25, 1989
Sign In to E-Mail

Print

Years and years ago, steam locomotives built in this area were exported to railroads around the world. And then more efficient diesel locomotives made steam rail travel obsolete, Now, two companies are importing from China 83-ton locomotives, based on a 1918 American design.

Two new steam engines were unloaded from a freighter on Dec. 17 at the Beckett Street Terminal in Camden, N.J., for the Knox & Kane Railroad in northwestern Pennsylvania and the Valley Railroad in Essex, Conn.

New steam locomotives have not been seen in the Port of Philadelphia since the 1950's, when the old Baldwin Locomotive Works went out of business, but steam engines have survived on short lines, hauling tourists.

Thousands of tourists line up each year to ride old-time trains. And the Chinese rely on steam locomotives. They Have the Manpower

They are sturdy, and China has plenty of the manpower and coal that the great engines require.

J. David Conrad of the Valley Railroad waited for the new steam engine at the marine terminal. ''The repairs we found necessary on our existing locomotives got the railroads thinking about new locomotives,'' he said, The last maker of steam locomotives is the Tangshan Locomotive & Rolling Stock Works, about 140 miles east of Beijing. Mr. Conrad went to the Chinese in 1986 to arrange a sale and soon afterward the Knox & Kane line followed suit.
Ads by Google
Sloan Cornell, the Knox & Kane general manager, said the new engine would haul tourists through part of the Allegheny National Forest. The main attraction of the Knox & Kane is the 300-foot-high, 2,053-foot-long Kinzua Bridge. About 17,000 people rode the Knox & Kane in 1988.

The Valley Railroad carries about 130,000 passengers a year on its six-mile trip along the west shore of the Connecticut River from Essex to Chester, Conn.

A delegation from Valley visited three locomotive factories in China and decided on the Class SY from Tangshan. Lynn Parrott, the president of the Valley Railroad, said later that the new locomotive was worth the $300,000 price. Learning American Ways

Earlier in the 20th century, the United States built steam engines for export to Japan. They were nicknamed ''Mikados.''

Mr. Conrad said the Valley line had chosen a smaller locomotive over a larger one offered at a plant in Datong, and that he and his party also preferred Tangshan's construction methods and the willingness of the Tangshan engineering staff to study American boiler codes and railroad guidelines.

When the new Chinese locomotive finally arrives in Connecticut, Ms. Parrott said, it will be the line's primary engine. She said she doubted that passengers would mind that it was not an antique.

''The majority of people who come here just like to ride behind a steam engine,'' she said. ''Besides, the engine being new and coming from China may arouse some curiosity.''

The brand-new iron horses are to be delivered to their owners on Conrail flatcars.

----------


## acptulsa

My, that is an impressive bridge.  And, yes, this is a Chinese Mikado.

----------


## Anti Federalist

And of course, it's gone now.

The bridge loss also killed the Kane railroad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinzua_Bridge

----------


## Anti Federalist

*The new bridge was designed by C.R. Grimm and was built by the Elmira Bridge Company out of 3,358 short tons (3,046 t) of steel.[14] A crew of between 100 and 150 worked 10-hour days for four months to complete the steel frame by September 6, and the bridge reopened to traffic on September 25, 1900*

A new one would probably take ten years and 1 billion dollars in cost now.

And we wonder why there are no jobs and nothing gets done.

----------


## acptulsa

> Says Phoebe Snow
>     about to go
>     upon a trip to Buffalo
>     "My gown stays white
>     from morn till night
>     Upon the Road of Anthracite" 
> 
> 
> 
> Anthracite coal didn't deposit so much soot.  The old Lackawana Railroad used it--and used that fact to attract patronage from passengers that didn't want to wear soot from the locomotive stack.


..

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## acptulsa

This thing is an N gauge model, meaning the locomotive is approximately five inches long.  The detail that the builder has added to it is uncanny; Tiffany & Co. has seldom done better with jewelry.  My engineer's cap is off to this guy.

----------


## acptulsa

A rare color picture from WWII of Santa Fe mikado type freight engines at Kansas City, KS.  The building is the coaling tower.  The Santa Fe pioneered the use of oil in steam engines, and their last steam runs were run on oil.  But they had sources of coal in Illinois, and the Eastern Lines ran on black diamonds.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> A rare color picture from WWII of Santa Fe mikado type freight engines at Kansas City, KS.  The building is the coaling tower.  The Santa Fe pioneered the use of oil in steam engines, and their last steam runs were run on oil.  But they had sources of coal in Illinois, and the Eastern Lines ran on black diamonds.


Picture won't display.

:-(

----------


## acptulsa

> Picture won't display.
> 
> :-(


Odd how that works.  It isn't there, then you copy and paste the link to your browser, and then it is there...

Here, try a link:

http://www.carrtracks.com/CArgentineKS.jpg

I love those monstrous Santa Fe tenders.  Got to have enough water to get across the Mojave.  Not that the mere monstrous Mikados often went that far west; the lines through the Rockies were more often the turf of even more monstrous Santa Fe and Texas types.





> Yes, yes it is. ^^^^


By the way, at least one still exists--complete with fuel tender.  Planning a trip to Illinois?

----------


## acptulsa

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhK-zYfFsIY

The person with the top comment read my mind.  They show every kind of train _except_ the A train.  But I guess I can understand the confusion.  New York City subway trains have neither engines (strumming or not) nor whistles...

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Odd how that works.  It isn't there, then you copy and paste the link to your browser, and then it is there...
> Here, try a link:
> 
> http://www.carrtracks.com/CArgentineKS.jpg


Forbidden

You don't have permission to access /CArgentineKS.jpg on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.




> By the way, at least one still exists--complete with fuel tender.  Planning a trip to Illinois?


Neat, I'd love to check that out.

Question: were these units "direct drive" with some sort of torque converter/gear reduction system or turbine-electric?

I'm imaging the latter, but with "one off" designs like that, you never know.

I wish I had some pictures of the steam/electric drive systems I worked on ships.

I may have mentioned this before, but I found out the reason why steam/electric was so widely used on so many WWII era ships: it was simply easier to do it that way, than devote the thinly stretched manpower and machining equipment to make the high tolerance/high torque/high precision gearboxes needed for steam turbine/shaft reduction.

Those were reserved for warships.

So anyways, my brother was "cab riding" New Hope and Ivyland's number 40 the other day.



ETA - Excuse the $#@! outta me, Mr. Small Time web page admin that hates hotlinking. Now your crappy little site will get no traffic.



He said it was hot and dirty and noisy and smoky and he loved every minute of it.

He was surprised by the rough ride, equating it to running a boat at 30 knots into a six foot sea.

----------


## acptulsa

> Forbidden
> 
> You don't have permission to access /CArgentineKS.jpg on this server.
> 
> Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.


Just bizarre how quickly you go from permitted to restricted and back, isn't it?  Let's see how long this works:

http://www.carrtracks.com/nmtcndx.htm




> Question: were these units "direct drive" with some sort of torque converter/gear reduction system or turbine-electric?
> 
> I'm imaging the latter, but with "one off" designs like that, you never know.


You imagine right.  Gas turbine-electric.  They were more successful than the GE/UP steam turbine-electric:



They also worked better than the Pennsy geared steam turbine:



But though dependable, they were nowhere near as efficient as diesel-electrics.

Nice little Consolidation.  Yes, I've heard that engines with small drive wheels were very hard on the liver.  The wheels are counterbalanced like a crankshaft.  You can see the counter-balancing; that would be the solid portions of the wheels opposite the rods.  Those are steel boxes filled with lead.  They not only had to counterbalance the weight of the rods, they had to counterbalance the force of the piston thrust from the rods.  On wheels that small, there wasn't enough room for enough lead to properly counterbalance all of that.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Just bizarre how quickly you go from permitted to restricted and back, isn't it?  Let's see how long this works:
> 
> http://www.carrtracks.com/nmtcndx.htm


Worked that time, thanks.




> But though dependable, they were nowhere near as efficient as diesel-electrics.


And as I've said a hundred times now, imagine the mileage that could be achieved by a *true* diesel/electric hybrid vehicle. 100 mpg or more, with no problem.




> Nice little Consolidation.  Yes, I've heard that engines with small drive wheels were very hard on the liver.  The wheels are counterbalanced like a crankshaft.  You can see the counter-balancing; that would be the solid portions of the wheels opposite the rods.  Those are steel boxes filled with lead.  They not only had to counterbalance the weight of the rods, they had to counterbalance the force of the piston thrust from the rods.  On wheels that small, there wasn't enough room for enough lead to properly counterbalance all of that.


It is, and it's a nice little run of track that NH&I works over and still carries revenue freight on.

My brother and I both rode behind #40 as children, many times (New Hope was a summer vacation spot for us) and it's great to see it still in operation after so many years.

Interesting side note: there is a trestle bridge that you cross, within a mile after leaving New Hope, that was used back in the silent film days to film a twist on an old ploy.



It was a "Perils of Pauline" short film, where the "dastardly villain" tied Pauline to the trestle tracks and eagerly awaited her doom, whilst twirling his mustache and laughing an evil laugh.

Of course the hero rescues her just in time and vanquishes the evil "Snidely Whiplash" or whomever it was.

IIRC New Hope and Ivyland had the original engine that was used in the film, and was going to restore it or put it on static display.

----------


## acptulsa

A 1926 Berkshire type 2-8-4.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Spent yesterday afternoon riding behind Conway's CN 0-6-0 #7470.

Always a fun trip.

----------


## acptulsa

> Spent yesterday afternoon riding behind Conway's CN 0-6-0 #7470.
> 
> Always a fun trip.


Are the leaves turning already?  They won't peak here for another month.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Are the leaves turning already?  They won't peak here for another month.


Oh hell yeah.

Actually, if you look closely, you'll start seeing some color in late August, usually.

The "back yard" as of today:

----------


## Anti Federalist

Thought this was neat.

Actual revenue freight, being hauled by steam.

Strasbourg RR, PA.

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

I rode this when I was 4 years old:




Ended up going out of business the next year, though I still have a keychain souvenir.

----------


## Pericles

UP 844 is on the rails! http://www.up.com/aboutup/special_tr.../details.shtml

----------


## acptulsa



----------


## Anti Federalist

////

----------


## Bastiat's The Law

So I haven't been able to go through the entire thread yet, but do you guys think high speed rail could be put in place in the US economically?  Is there any way we could interject more market principals into the railroads or is that hopeless?  Would the market provide high speed rail or would that only come from government subsidy?  When visiting certain high population cities I enjoy using the rail system because its incredibly cheap usually a couple bucks and I don't have to bother with the headache of commuting and parking which also costs money.

----------


## acptulsa

> So I haven't been able to go through the entire thread yet, but do you guys think high speed rail could be put in place in the US economically?


Economically?  Not really.  Profitably?  Fine question.

Between two major metropolitan areas, preferably with hard-to-quickly-access airports, and flat ground in between, there is some hope.  There would be more hope if the price of fuel were to rise.




> Is there any way we could interject more market princip*le*s into the railroads or is that hopeless?  Would the market provide high speed rail or would that only come from government subsidy?  When visiting certain high population cities I enjoy using the rail system because its incredibly cheap usually a couple bucks and I don't have to bother with the headache of commuting and parking which also costs money.


Actually, those commuter trains are invariably subsidized.  I know of no true high speed rail that isn't subsidized.  As for market principles, they certainly do apply in freight rail, with certain self-sustaining tourists railroads (several of which are mentioned in the thread) and the Indian-Pacific, for example.

Passenger train operation is problematic.  It's pretty much never profitable--or, at least, never profitable enough to actually support the track.  Very few railroads in this nation have had anywhere near as much passenger as freight traffic, and most of those (like the New Haven) have had continual financial troubles.  And that was in the glory days of rail travel.

As a general rule, the more successful railroads have considered their crack passenger services to be a good way to advertise their freight service.  If you're a shipper and you want to know which railroads will do the best job of shipping from Kansas City to Los Angeles, it takes but little research today--only two railroads can do it.  Back in the day, you probably already knew because you may have made the trip by rail.

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

> So I haven't been able to go through the entire thread yet, but do you guys think high speed rail could be put in place in the US economically?  Is there any way we could interject more market principals into the railroads or is that hopeless?  Would the market provide high speed rail or would that only come from government subsidy?  When visiting certain high population cities I enjoy using the rail system because its incredibly cheap usually a couple bucks and I don't have to bother with the headache of commuting and parking which also costs money.




Not European high speed, but faster than most passenger trains in the US (this one will operate at 110 mph). Somewhat similar to what acptulsa talked about freight railroads advertising their services, this line will be operated under FEC industries, which operates the FEC railway (freight), but will be separate from the freight operations. This is so All Aboard Florida doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of the STB under the interstate commerce clause, since this is intrastate commerce. In this case, FEC industries is hoping this project will help their real estate market. 

All Aboard Florida will be privately funded. One big advantage to this project is that 200 miles of track is already owned by FEC industries, so unlike the big fraud known as California High Speed Rail, hundreds of mile of right a way will not be needed or stolen by the state. The remaining 40 miles between Cocoa and Orlando will have to be built on a corridor that the state saved (along an interstate highway) before Rick Scott killed the federally funded high speed rail proposal. All Aboard Florida is currently in the process of buying that land from the state.

----------


## Pauls' Revere

California high spped rail coming in the future. Paid for by bond measures.

http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/

Connecting Sacramento, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and San Diego.

----------


## Anti Federalist

What acptulsa said.

I'd add this, no form of mass *or* individual transit is free from subsidies.

The sad fact of the matter is this, no one would be able to afford a trip by car, train or plane if these subsidies were not in place.

The airlines are a failed business model, when a new heavy transport aircraft can cost hundreds of millions of dollars (Think 787, 747ER or Airbus A380) then followed by millions in overhead and maintenance. They operate, with a full aircraft, on a razor thin profit margin, which is why they are continually merging, bankrupting and going tits up.

(ETA-Smisek at United just inked a deal with Boeing for 150 medium size 737-900s at a retail price of $14.7 BILLION. That is an insane amount of equipment overhead.)

The average domestic round trip from say NYC to Chicago, that with smart shopping you can buy for $200 to $300 should, by any rational business model, be priced at $1000 or more.

Roads? Same thing. If you had to pay for every mile of subsidized and taxpayer funded roadway that you drove on, you would not be able to afford it. My reckoning has it around $3 a mile. Sixty bucks a day for a 10 mile, round trip commute, every day. That's $300 a week for a five day a week working stiff.

That said, rail remains the single most efficient way to transport both people and freight, in many ways, roadbed footprint, fuel usage, raw materials and service life.

If just a little of the real world costs were passed along to driver and flyers, I think private rail could be profitable alternative.

----------


## acptulsa

Not all steamers were wonderful to look at.  Interestingly, the ugly ones were almost always mechanically inferior as well.



The _L.F. Loree_, named for the D&H's mercurial president Leonor Loree, was the third in a string of bizarre very high pressure designs from the early 1930s.  It had a large firebox to pressure up a 500 psi boiler.  And it used four cylinders--a high pressure cylinder and a medium pressure cylinder cross-compounded under the cab and driving one pair of drive shafts, and a pair of low pressure cylinders in the normal position up front.  The last drove a more usual set of drive rods, and exhausted in the normal manner through the smokebox and stack (thus creating the normal flow up the flue).  Steam expanded in each of these cylinders in turn; first in the high pressure cylinder, then across the cab to the medium pressure cylinder, and finally the now cooler and less energetic steam was shipped up front to the pair of low pressure cylinders.

The engine was displayed at the Century of Progress Exhibition in Chicago in 1933, then put to work.  On the road, it broke down.  A lot.  Far too complicated, it was soon deemed to be a white elephant and scrapped.

----------


## juliusaugustus

I don't get why people keep saying passenger rail is unprofitable neither are Airports or highways. Amtrak gets a federal operating subsidy of about 30 cents of every dollar, highways get an local operating subsidy close to 50 cents of every dollar from sales taxes, bond measure, property taxes, regularly recieve federal grant money, and gas taxes are themselves a form of subsidy if you were to drive on a private road you would paying gas taxes or driving on a local road you pay gas taxes. Airlines don't front the capital cost of building an airport, they pay for the operating cost of ATC but not capital cost, the TSA is paid by tax payers completely, they regularly receive tax breaks of fuel which is part of how airports are paid for, Military R&D is given out free by government to airlines, also Essential Air service pays for service which is not used essentially the purpose is to pay flight in rural areas where airplanes aren't used by many people, military provides free training to pilots in commercial aviation, airline recieve free federal insurance for downtime such as 911 (they are technically still receiving this), and the AIP gives away free money for airport improvement. Not sure what the actual amount of Airline subsidies come to but the total amount of money they have received in government handouts come to 155 Billion dollars. To add insult to injury airlines regularly go out business, regularly go bankrupt, and are regularly unprofitable. The federal money given to highway to building is nearly half a trillion dollars. Amtrak in it's entire existence has received a whopping 31 billion dollars, talk about subsidies. Solution to all of this? Get the Federal government out of transportation sell the interstates to interested parties, sell amtrak routes and equipment to those who are interested, deregulate Amtrak and get rid of its stupid rules, privatize the FAA, end the TSA, end EAS, END AIP, buyout local airports and ATC and sell them to private investors, post office privatization and dergulation, Ending barge subsidies, and anything else that is unnecessary. I would turn the windfall into loan-able funds with many strings attached and high interest rates, but could be use for various projects.
some sources
http://www.laane.org/downloads/ShortchangedStudy.pdf
http://hasbrouck.org/blog/archives/001001.html
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1112
http://www.ebbc.org/rail/fra.html

----------


## acptulsa

> ...sell amtrak routes and equipment to those who are interested, deregulate Amtrak and get rid of its stupid rules...


I garner from your rant that you didn't read mine.  May I recommend, as a 'source', the OP of this thread?

Amtrak is the government; you don't deregulate government.  And Amtrak has only three routes--Boston-Washington, Harrisburg-Washington and Harrisburg-Philadelphia.  Everything else it runs it runs on private property it has appropriated the use of.

If you think you can get private enterprise interested in running those three busy but not profitable routes, go for it.  I expect we would be better off if the states who benefit from it subsidized it without our help, myself.

As for the subsidization of highways and airlines, all I can say is the fedgov subsidizes those semi-clandestinely, subsidizes Amtrak openly, and to make sure rail travel is as unpleasant as possible, took over rail travel and operates it badly (while making noises about how they 'saved' it because of how fuel-efficient it is).  Sure sounds like something an entity controlled by the oil companies would do.  But, of course, only a conspiracy theorist would look at these endless Middle Eastern wars and decide the federal government is run by the oil companies...

----------


## juliusaugustus

> I garner from your rant that you didn't read mine.  May I recommend, as a 'source', the OP of this thread?
> 
> Amtrak is the government; you don't deregulate government.  And Amtrak has only three routes--Boston-Washington, Harrisburg-Washington and Harrisburg-Philadelphia.  Everything else it runs it runs on private property it has appropriated the use of.
> 
> If you think you can get private enterprise interested in running those three busy but not profitable routes, go for it.  I expect we would be better off if the states who benefit from it subsidized it without our help, myself.
> 
> As for the subsidization of highways and airlines, all I can say is the fedgov subsidizes those semi-clandestinely, subsidizes Amtrak openly, and to make sure rail travel is as unpleasant as possible, took over rail travel and operates it badly (while making noises about how they 'saved' it because of how fuel-efficient it is).  Sure sounds like something an entity controlled by the oil companies would do.  But, of course, only a conspiracy theorist would look at these endless Middle Eastern wars and decide the federal government is run by the oil companies...


I guess what I meant by Amtrak is passenger rail, many of of routes could be quite profitable if not for government intervention. Anyways the whole conspiracy theory thing is true just it isn't a conspiracy it is flat out real. Oil companies receive massive tax breaks, which I am not against but tax breaks should be applied equally, they also get cheap oil exploration on public land, and payment for exploration on that land. Gasoline is far cheaper than its real market price because of these subsidies, which of course encourages car use. Highways provided at below market price encourages car use. Suburban lifestyle of auto suburb is heavily subsidized which killed the Urban lifestyle whether it be cities or streetcar suburbs, for example free housing was given to WW2 veterans and building codes make it hard to build dense living arrangement. It ain't a conspiracy but the the suburban car life style is all part of the military industrial complex and by Eisenhower laying down the interstate he was ushering in the military-industrial complex, the vary thing he warned us about.

----------


## juliusaugustus

Daddy What's a Train. A Song used to describe disappearing railroads.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Rode Maine Narrow Gauge's "Polar Express" with the family tonight.

Always fun and neat old equipment in use.

----------


## Ben Bernanke

I'm giving a presentation on light rail transit tomorrow for my transportation economics class, specifically on Charlotte's lynx rail.

It is an absolutely economic and fiscal disaster from every perspective, as every light rail system I can think of is.

----------


## juliusaugustus

> I'm giving a presentation on light rail transit tomorrow for my transportation economics class, specifically on Charlotte's lynx rail.
> 
> It is an absolutely economic and fiscal disaster from every perspective, as every light rail system I can think of is.


In a truly free market we would still have streetcar and interurban rail systems. What killed the systems were over regulation as I illustrate here 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...andal-The-Tool

----------


## acptulsa

Light rail has no freight revenue to subsidize it.  Fuel is far from the biggest cost, because it's so efficient; therefore these wars for fuel don't subsidize much of the costs.  The suburbanites have to have a car anyway, just to get to the store; therefore you can't charge them much more fare than what parking costs them--they're going to insure and maintain an auto anyway and will drive it to work otherwise.  And light rail becomes a way to save on street maintenance and expressway upgrades, and a way to avoid turning half of downtown into parking lots.  Given this, subsidization and operating 'in the red' is pretty much inevitable with commuter rail.  And it serves a purpose.

----------


## juliusaugustus

> Light rail has no freight revenue to subsidize it.  Fuel is far from the biggest cost, because it's so efficient; therefore these wars for fuel don't subsidize much of the costs.  The suburbanites have to have a car anyway, just to get to the store; therefore you can't charge them much more fare than what parking costs them--they're going to insure and maintain an auto anyway and will drive it to work otherwise.  And light rail becomes a way to save on street maintenance and expressway upgrades, and a way to avoid turning half of downtown into parking lots.  Given this, subsidization and operating 'in the red' is pretty much inevitable with commuter rail.  And it serves a purpose.


You can use tram and light rail systems for freight and is done so in europe. If you simply presented auto usage at its real cost more people would use Light rail or trams and of course with less regulation for light rail as well. Without oil subsidies or wars for oil the cost of light rail and streetcars becomes competitive. Suburbs were originally developed in many cases by streetcars and light rail systems. Without subsidies to auto light rail becomes competitive.

----------


## acptulsa

> You can use tram and light rail systems for freight and is done so in europe.


Used to happen here, too.  But trucks can deliver door to door, and that saves time which, in turn, saves money.




> If you simply presented auto usage at its real cost more people would use Light rail or trams and of course with less regulation for light rail as well. Without oil subsidies or wars for oil the cost of light rail and streetcars becomes competitive. Suburbs were originally developed in many cases by streetcars and light rail systems. Without subsidies to auto light rail becomes competitive.


But, as I mentioned, the suburbs must maintain ways to get, say, to the grocery, or to the commuter rail station, or people will buy and insure a car anyway.  Now, commuter rail can potentially allow a two car family to become a one car family.  But we have a lot of redesigning to do to many parts of this nation to make non-ownership of automobiles commonplace.  Hell, Tulsa has a couple dozen miles of bike trails and has moved into the top tier nationwide as a result.  Most places don't even have side streets that go through across town, so a bicyclist can have a safer and less polluted throughway...

But, yes, in some places parking costs alone make light rail almost competitive.

----------


## juliusaugustus

> Used to happen here, too.  But trucks can deliver door to door, and that saves time which, in turn, saves money.
> 
> 
> 
> But, as I mentioned, the suburbs must maintain ways to get, say, to the grocery, or to the commuter rail station, or people will buy and insure a car anyway.  Now, commuter rail can potentially allow a two car family to become a one car family.  But we have a lot of redesigning to do to many parts of this nation to make non-ownership of automobiles commonplace.  Hell, Tulsa has a couple dozen miles of bike trails and has moved into the top tier nationwide as a result.  Most places don't even have side streets that go through across town, so a bicyclist can have a safer and less polluted throughway...
> 
> But, yes, in some places parking costs alone make light rail almost competitive.


Light rail freight is competitive because of the energy and labor savings. Many suburbs are streetcar suburbs without the streetcars. New Urbanism a term which I hate, regardless is useful for public transit  because such communities are walkable and mixed use. Auto sprawl is the result of government intervention and in a free market new urbanism would be more popular. In my own home town auto sprawl is mandated by buidling codes. Also something not talked about is how not every wants to live a suburb for many people large cities like New York is the American dream. New York is an example of how resources are properly allocated by the markets. and how land is conserved by building skyscrapers and then building trains to move people.

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

> http://trn.trains.com/en/Railroad%20...20service.aspx
> 
> Union Pacific studying Big Boy restoration project
> 
> 
> POMONA, Calif.  Union Pacific may be bringing back the ultimate steam machine, an Alco-built 4-8-8-4 Big Boy, the last of which steamed more than 50 years ago.
> 
> Company spokesman Mark Davis told Trains News Wire Friday that the company has been approached by and is working with a third party interested in restoring and operating a Big Boy. He said the railroad is evaluating the condition of preserved UP Big Boy locomotives and that it believes two might be available for restoration. Davis declined to name the other party or give a timeline for the project. But at least one organization is already talking about its potential to put a Big Boy back on the main line.
> 
> ...

----------


## Anti Federalist

> The treasurer of the Southern California railroad club that owns a displayed Union Pacific Big Boy 4-8-8-4 says his group hopes to learn more Saturday about a UP offer to acquire No. 4014 for restoration and operation.


So shines a ray of light and good news in a sea of gloom.

Merry Christmas to me!

----------


## Anti Federalist

///

----------


## Anti Federalist

Brother AF just got out of the cab of New Hope and Ivyland's #40 tonight during their Christmas run.

----------


## juliusaugustus

While the road to hell is paved with good intentions, the railroad to freedom is built with profit motive and self interest in mind.

----------


## acptulsa

'Any ship not in Norway is in the wrong place.'--_attributed to Adolf Hitler_

The Army got into the railroad business.  They pretty much always had switcher locomotives, though the Navy had more (in the Navy yards).  But Hitler's edict that the major surviving surface ships of the _Kriegsmarine_ be used to threaten convoys to Murmansk in the former Soviet Union got the Army into the railroad business in a big way.  The result was the Trans-Iranian Railway, which was used to supply the Soviets.  And it made the ALCO RSD-1 into The Locomotive that Saved Russia.



The new ALCO RS-1 was converted to ride on six powered axles, rather than four, which reduced per-axle weight and allowed it to run on thinner, weaker rail.  Every one of these brand new diesel-electrics built to date were seized by the Army, even some that had been delivered to railroads in the U.S.  It would become the mainstay of three railroads after the war--Iran's, the Soviet Union's (the Soviets produced copies of the design after the war) and the Alaska Railroad (which completely changed the appearance of many of them).  This is just one of the ALCOs' claims to fame.  They were also the world's first road switchers, this being the term for a diesel with a narrow hood for visibility.  Almost every freight locomotive in use in the U.S. today is a road switcher, and owes its design to this revolutionary unit.

After the war, the Army (as it always does) prepared to fight that same war again.  So, for many years afterwards, they bought special, custom-design, extraordinarily expensive 'multi-gauge' units.



These actually had multi-gauge trucks, meaning with the right tools and enough time, the distance between the wheels could be varied.  This was deemed necessary because not all of the world's railroads place their rails the same distance apart.  I don't believe they were ever deployed.  Despite the fact that, with their cost-plus pricing, they were enormously expensive (half a million 1952 dollars), it has been reported that some of them wound up as gunnery targets.

Army waste at it's best.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Strange how idle reading will bring you full circle, while researching radio wave propagation, led me to "clear channel" stations which led me to WSM which led me to the _Pan-American_.

----------


## surf

I got a note last year from the local gov't agency in charge of putting in "light rail" in the Puget Sound area telling me that I'll be able to hop on a train and head downtown sometime in _2023_. my bet is they'll miss that. I live very close to msft - about 10 miles from where i'd like the train to let me off.

I really like the thought of hopping on a train and going to a game and getting drunk w/no worries about driving home....

don't get me wrong, I know (current) rail sucks and is the most expensive form of transportation.

w/o reading through this thread, i'm hoping it has been pointed out that tire manufacturers are the ones that are primarily responsible for the state of (ground) transportation in this country today (and the demise of rail)

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

Ahh...the Pan American. I believe there was another train called the Humming Bird that followed a similar route. 




> w/o reading through this thread, i'm hoping it has been pointed out that tire manufacturers are the ones that are primarily responsible for the state of (ground) transportation in this country today (and the demise of rail)


Yup.

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

From Wikipedia on the Humming Bird:




> The Humming Bird was canceled on January 9, 1969. At that time, the L&N Railroad earned some unwanted publicity when it terminated the final run of the train en route southbound at Birmingham after a federal judge lifted the order keeping the train running after the ICC approved its permanent discontinuance. The passengers were then bussed to their destinations.


Depressing.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Ahh...the Pan American. I believe there was another train called the Humming Bird that followed a similar route. 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup.


Sure did:

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

Just saw this. Too cute!

----------


## juliusaugustus

Here is an article on why Libertarians should support transit. By and large suburbs and automobiles in this country are the epitome central planning and social engineering. Suburbia in terms of social engineering far exceeds anything the soviets ever created. Surburbia also shows how government regulations and subsidies can be unnecessarily wasteful. Roads are also a perfect example of the tragedy of the commons.
http://keephoustonhouston.wordpress....e-pro-transit/

----------


## acptulsa

> Another vehicle I love even though I consider it ugly.


Props to the Delaware & Hudson for preserving a couple of them.




> Here is an article on why Libertarians should support transit. By and large suburbs and automobiles in this country are the epitome central planning and social engineering. Suburbia in terms of social engineering far exceeds anything the soviets ever created. Surburbia also shows how government regulations and subsidies can be unnecessarily wasteful. Roads are also a perfect example of the tragedy of the commons.
> http://keephoustonhouston.wordpress....e-pro-transit/


Whoever wrote that missed the GM/Firestone/oil companies plot of the fifties.  And Amtrak _is_ a Soviet-style operation (thank you, John Erlichman you RINO bastard, may you rot in hell).

----------


## acptulsa

> Here is an article on why Libertarians should support transit. By and large suburbs and automobiles in this country are the epitome central planning and social engineering. Suburbia in terms of social engineering far exceeds anything the soviets ever created. Surburbia also shows how government regulations and subsidies can be unnecessarily wasteful. Roads are also a perfect example of the tragedy of the commons.
> http://keephoustonhouston.wordpress....e-pro-transit/


I really don't get why you trolled my thread with a link to this hogwash.  Anyone who read my OP and some of the posts in the first few pages will laugh at you for eventually and after much questionable 'history' getting to your punch line--that libertarians (oh, yeah, you make clear in the first paragraph you aren't even interested in libertarians, but only Libertarian Party members) should love Amtrak and want to expand it.

Bad joke, my troll.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Just saw this. Too cute!


What kid, including the kid in us old folks, doesn't love a train ride?

----------


## amonasro

I thought the US already had an intercity passenger rail, called Amtrak.

----------


## acptulsa

> I thought the US already had an intercity passenger rail, called Amtrak.


The OP isn't _that_ boring.  Give it a try.

----------


## juliusaugustus

> I really don't get why you trolled my thread with a link to this hogwash.  Anyone who read my OP and some of the posts in the first few pages will laugh at you for eventually and after much questionable 'history' getting to your punch line--that libertarians (oh, yeah, you make clear in the first paragraph you aren't even interested in libertarians, but only Libertarian Party members) should love Amtrak and want to expand it.
> 
> Bad joke, my troll.


I don't get what the LP has to do with this. I support government expansions to passenger rail not because I think the government is best at doing but because of the current political situation. The government is not getting out the road business any time soon. Road and airport privatization is met with huge hostility and thus is never done. Getting rid transportation subsidies is a political non sequitur. Rather than trying to create a free market for transportation I will work towards better railroads and if they come from the government then so be it. Privatization of transportation is the eventual goal not the starting point. I would only end Amtrak if other government transportation programs are ended as well and regulations are removed. As for Amtrak's inefficiency compared to other government programs they are a drop in the bucket they cover 85% of their own costs through revenues where as government run roads barely cover 60% of their own costs through fees that really aren't fees. Amtrak in its entire existence has gotten less money then do roads get every year. People like to point out Amtrak's problems while they ignore the huge inefficiency of government roads. Why do people attack Amtrak yet ignore government roads and airports? In fact many of Amtrak detractors praise the interstates including the Cato institute. Regardless we have broken system and steps must be done toward making it less broken.  I must ad that Ron Paul supported high speed rail and voted towards having it built in his state for probably reasons similar to what I describe.

----------


## acptulsa

You don't know what the Libertarian Party has to do with it because, even though you wish to come here and save the natives' souls you don't even know the difference between a libertarian and a Libertarian.  People attack Amtrak because Amtrak is the government shoving itself onto privately owned roads--roads of steel rail, which it does not own.  Your figures that show Amtrak covers eighty-five percent of what it costs completely ignores that simple fact--it puts wear and tear on freight railroads that We, the People do not own (except those of us who are stockholders in the major American railroads).  And regardless of what ads you run, Ron Paul never in his life supported government subsidization of any high speed rail system, and never voted for such a thing in Congress.  If you care to link to this vote you're referring to, I'll tell you what you're really looking at so you won't be confused any more.

You can be full of $#@! anywhere.  But you can't get away with it here.

----------


## juliusaugustus

> You don't know what the Libertarian Party has to do with it because, even though you wish to come here and save the natives' souls you don't even know the difference between a libertarian and a Libertarian.  People attack Amtrak because Amtrak is the government shoving itself onto privately owned roads--roads of steel rail, which it does not own.  Your figures that show Amtrak covers eighty-five percent of what it costs completely ignores that simple fact--it puts wear and tear on freight railroads that We, the People do not own (except those of us who are stockholders in the major American railroads).  And regardless of what ads you run, Ron Paul never in his life supported government subsidization of any high speed rail system, and never voted for such a thing in Congress.  If you care to link to this vote you're referring to, I'll tell you what you're really looking at so you won't be confused any more.
> 
> You can be full of $#@! anywhere.  But you can't get away with it here.


Everything you said is completely obsurd. I do know the difference I was simply asking why the Libertarian party relevant to the discussion at all. Amtrak has to pay for usage of the tracks and this in turn makes money for freight railroads. Railroads were originally obligated themselves to run passenger trains Amtrak removes this obligation. Amtrak often improves freight railroads through capital improvement to railroads. Amtrak has in some cases has actually improved freight railroads. As for we the people we the people gave them vast sums of land, we the people gave them franchises, we the people gave them eminent domain, we the people bailed out the failing Penn Central, and we the people provide them loans at below market interest rates. Yes government is a thorn in the sides of railroads but railroads have are in large part the successful and prevalent industry they are _because_ of government.
Ron Paul did indeed support High speed rail. For his own state mind you. He wanted the private sector to do it but he did support a combination of public and private funding. 
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/03/us...po-direct&_r=0
http://www.urbanistdispatch.com/2012...-and-ron-paul/

----------


## acptulsa

> Everything you said is completely obsurd.


Stop making up words.




> I do know the difference I was simply asking why the Libertarian party relevant to the discussion at all.


If you knew the difference between libertarian and Libertarian it would show.




> Amtrak has to pay for usage of the tracks and this in turn makes money for freight railroads.


No, it doesn't.  It _partially_ recompenses the railroads for their wear and tear, dispatching, and the delays to their non-priority freight traffic.  It has never completely recompensed railroads for these very real expenses.




> Railroads were originally obligated themselves to run passenger trains Amtrak removes this obligation.


If you had the decency to read the OP of this very thread before you commenced trying to hijack it, you'd realize that Amtrak does not run all the routes that the federal government told the freight railroads were too important for them to discontinue.  So, you arguing that the government removes the obligation the government declares to be an obligation is completely circular non-reasoning.




> Amtrak often improves freight railroads through capital improvement to railroads. Amtrak has in some cases has actually improved freight railroads.


Link me to proof that Amtrak has ever made capital improvements to anything but stations and their own equipment or just stop lying in my thread, because I'm not letting you get away with it.




> As for we the people we the people gave them vast sums of land, we the people gave them franchises, we the people gave them eminent domain, we the people bailed out the failing Penn Central, and we the people provide them loans at below market interest rates. Yes government is a thorn in the sides of railroads but railroads have are in large part the successful and prevalent industry they are _because_ of government.


The government got paid back for the land grants three ways.  One, the railroads built railroads, and since the government hung onto half of the grant lands in a 'checkerboard pattern' in each case, the half of the land the government kept quintupled (or more) in price--simply put, a farm is worth more if there's a way to get the crop to market (duh).  The government got railroads that attracted settlers, thereby expanding government's tax base (why, yes, some settlers did come from overseas, google Mennonites duh).  And the government demanded of land grant railroads that they haul strategic materials at a reduced rate right through to the end of World War II, thereby repaying the government for those lands _several times over_.  Just how much servitude do you expect of the railroads for those long-ago 'grants'?

Franchises?  A small enough thing for an industry which was a key factor in the United States' growth into the world superpower.  Eminent domain?  That is extensively used for highways, but you'll have to prove to me that it was extensively used for the railroads--use of eminent domain for non-government projects is a very recent phenomenon.  The only cases of cut rate government loans I'm familiar with are for the original transcontinental and for Penn Central.  _Credit Mobilier_ more than repaid the crooked Congress of the Gilded Age for the one, and the other was (if possible) an even bigger boondoggle.  And railroads are successful _in spite_ of government in this country, not because of it.




> Ron Paul did indeed support High speed rail. For his own state mind you. He wanted the private sector to do it but he did support a combination of public and private funding.


I didn't say otherwise.  I said he never voted for federal funding of it.  Considering all of the nation, even the poorest parts of it, pay for Amtrak, but two of the wealthiest portions of the nation (the northeast and Southern California) reap almost all the benefit of it, I don't know why he would have.  It's not only unnecessary and immoral, it's one of the most regressive steal from the poor and give to the rich programs the federal government runs.  Hell, Oklahoma is one of the poorest states in the nation, and had to do without Amtrak until it funded a route _on its own,_ which Amtrak was kind enough to provide ticketing services for and to connect with at Ft. Worth.  It's insanity.

If you don't read my opening post and educate yourself, I'm going to accuse you of spamming my thread.  There's no excuse for you displaying such ignorance in a thread designed to educate you.  Come back after you claim the free clue I have laid out for you, and maybe we can have an intelligent conversation.  Or don't come back at all.

----------


## juliusaugustus

> Stop making up words.
> 
> 
> 
> If you knew the difference between libertarian and Libertarian it would show.
> 
> I do understand the difference a L is party member while an l is simply part of the ideology. I was wondering why it is relevant to discussion at hand.
> 
> No, it doesn't.  It _partially_ recompenses the railroads for their wear and tear, dispatching, and the delays to their non-priority freight traffic.  It has never completely recompensed railroads for these very real expenses.
> ...


*Edit: Plus eastern railroads were almost always funded by governments or subsidized.*
*I will grant you that railways in this country are more of a free market business however they are beneficiaries of government. In many respects american railroads are an example corporate fascism even if they are less abusive then others. I must add that JP Morgan a Rothschild agent financed many of the railroads. "The Money Trusts" who helped finance and run many of the railroads are themselves beneficiaries of government enforced central banking monopolies. I think one can atleast acknowledge that American railroads are not free market. The closest thing to free market transportation is in Asia but even there governments plays a large role.*

----------


## acptulsa

Amtrak only _ever_ improves the tracks they own, which are (as you'd know if you read the OP) between Harrisburg, Washington and Boston.  If you expect me to believe they've improved any others, you'll have to provide proof.  Because I think you're either mistaken or lying.

The freight railroads were not all created by the government.  They were overregulated by the ICC for decades, but this didn't last so long as a century.  Some but not all railroads used to overcharge shippers in towns where they had a monopoly so they could have rate wars on competitive routes in an effort to drive their competition out of business.  The city of Los Angeles was transformed from a sleepy village to a city of tens of thousands during just such a rate war.  Now, if they were all the government's babies, and the government loved them all and wanted them all to be happy, why would the government order them to try to kill each other, and risk their own financial survival in the process?  It didn't, of course--it created the ICC.  And since the ICC was disbanded?  The railroads have merged in ways that neither a person who believes in competition nor a person who believes in monopoly utilities can believe in.  Look up the Western Pacific some time.  Never mind you never heard of it--you have now; look it up.

To say that the SP held its monopoly in California through 'franchise' is simplistic and naive.  The SP built tracks where they didn't need them just to block competitors.  The SP parked locomotives on their tracks where other railroads needed to cross them so the other road couldn't put in a frog.  There were other railroads in California that the SP bought.  The Central Pacific comes to mind.  And still the competition came in--which it couldn't have done if, as you seem to believe, the state or federal government was not allowing any other railroad to operate in the state.  Stanford wound up as governor, but he never managed _that_ trick.  Just because some people were forced off their lands by force doesn't mean eminent domain was used, though arguably these incidents were extra-legal precursers to that practice.  But I will confess that there were probably a few suburban commuter lines that resorted to imminent domain shortly after the practice began on a local scale.  As far as the interstate railroads are concerned, however, they were in place in populated areas before the term was invented, and all further expansion of America's trunk lines were in unpopulated areas.  And what you call 'mail subsidies' I call the USPS getting their freight moved in a most expeditious manner--and getting their money's worth.  So which of us is right?  In the beginning, the USPS was simply another shipper.  In the end, it was institutionalized enough that you could argue it was a subsidy--certainly those passenger trains that didn't haul mail didn't make money--but the USPS still got their money's worth.

Ron Paul believes in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments.  If your state wants to subsidize some kind of intrastate service, neither the Constitution nor Ron Paul has any objections to register.  So what?

J.P. Morgan did his best to control not only banking, but railroading and the government during his lifetime.  He succeeded, too--_to varying degrees._  And never as much as he'd have liked to.  Eastern railroads were often subsidized, but eastern railroads were always required to provide commuter services which more than ate up these 'generous subsidies' you glow and blather about.  And you had to be forced by local municipalities or states into running these money-losing public services to ever hope for a subsidy.  Railroad mileage in the U.S. peaked in 1916, and has been shrinking ever since.  The central bank was founded in 1913.  So, not only does your contention that central banking practices built the railroads not hold water, you're all wet.  The railroads not only compete against trucking companies on government roads, barge traffic on government-dredged waterways and air freight taking off from government airports, they compete against each other.  To call them uncompetitive and fascist is either ignorance, propaganda or both, and silly in either case.  And to say that Asian railroads are less 'fascist' when most of them are government-owned, and you can have stock in any American railroad but Amtrak, is simply laughable.

Another massive fail.  But thanks for the morning laugh.

----------


## acptulsa

Fair warning, establishment trolls...




> "History ain't what it is, it's what some writer wanted it to be."--_Will Rogers 1932_


Not in _my_ thread.

'You need government to protect you from the Robber Barons like the ones that built the railroads, but railroads couldn't possibly be built without the government so obviously the very Robber Barons you need government to protect you from _were_ the government.'  This is just more evidence of the 'the propaganda doesn't need to make sense as long as it scares people' attitude that is causing the establishment to lose this battle for hearts and minds.

----------


## acptulsa

Well.  Another troll educated.  Pity you have to undo what the public schools do before you can expose a mind to the truth.

That done...

----------


## jdcole

I like trains.  Sent the wife on a trip down to San Antonio from Fort Worth via Amtrak and she had a blast.

I just geek-out for trains, I just think they're cool.  But there's got to be a better way to do them, in a free-market fashion.

----------


## acptulsa

> I like trains.  Sent the wife on a trip down to San Antonio from Fort Worth via Amtrak and she had a blast.
> 
> I just geek-out for trains, I just think they're cool.  But there's got to be a better way to do them, in a free-market fashion.


That's exactly the point of this thread.  There is.  The Official Propaganda maintains that passenger service cannot be done without government help.  Well, that might be true of commuter service in a nation that fights wars with borrowed money just to keep its oil prices down.  But so far as intercity (to make Melissa happy, maybe I should say 'interstate' ) service is concerned, the evidence contradicts this.

The evidence is hard to come up with, as it has been over a hundred years since any nation allowed passenger service to proceed unmolested by government interference.  In the OP, however, I do discuss some of this evidence.  And I'd love to expand on that, if I can only get some intelligent, non-trollish comments and questions.

Meanwhile, and just because you mentioned San Antonio, the _Texas Eagle_:



This train rolled out of St. Louis as, basically, three trains.  In the middle of the night, as the passengers slept, it stopped in Marshall and was split.  The _Texas Eagle_ proceeded to San Antonio, the _South Texas Eagle_ took sleepers full of Houston passengers, and the _West Texas Eagle_ proceeded through both Dallas and Ft. Worth to El Paso.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> That's exactly the point of this thread.  There is.  The Official Propaganda maintains that passenger service cannot be done without government help.  Well, that might be true of commuter service in a nation that fights wars with borrowed money just to keep its oil prices down.


While researching the "T" in and around Boston, I was rather surprised to find that the day to day ops are, in fact, carried out by a private contractor. The North station and the lines running south into it are the Boston and Maine tracks and the B and M ran the ops until its bankruptcy.

The name of the current operations outfit escapes me, but it is not the state of Massachusetts.

To tell you the truth, I think the demise of air travel is what is needed to bring about a renaissance of train travel. When you consider that a new 787 costs upward of $150 million each, the increasing regulatory burden, overhead costs and the hassle of air travel, and everything else, the airline business is a failed model as "mass transit". You can't charge the money that you really need to do, in order to cover that astronomical overhead and make a healthy profit. Thus, every time the economy $#@!s the bed, the airlines come crawling for a bailout. 

The public would latch onto a luxurious and speedy train trip as an alternative to air travel, I think.

Market it as a "land cruise" that could actually take you to a destination that you needed to get to.

In spite of the latest Carnival nightmare, the cruise business is booming, and who would have thought *that* 50 or 60 years ago?

All that needs to happen, as is usually the case, is to get the ever $#@!ing government out of the way.

----------


## acptulsa

American and U.S. Airways just merged.  The Teamsters are trying to woo their mechanics.

Other than Southwest, they're all incompetent, all including Southwest are beset by an incompetent government, and suffering because the TSA is chasing their customers away.  But they do have advantages, like government-run pavement and government-sponsored air traffic control.  So, if government is subsidizing them and they still can't survive the government regulations, imagine what the non-subsidized railroads have gone through.

Between that and the liability situation, it's no wonder the railroads are afraid to even talk about passenger service today.  And yet, the Union Pacific's excursions remain the finest way to travel in this nation.

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

I found the AA and US merger interesting. Reminds me of all the Class 1 mergers...Seaboard Air Line and Atlantic Coast Line, Burlington Northern and Santa Fe, Southern Pacific and Union Pacific...the list goes on. 

As far as private rail travel, there is the All Aboard Florida project from Florida East Coast Industries (parent company of the Florida East Coast Railway). The trains are expected to travel up to 125 mph, which will make it America's fastest train outside Amtrak's Northeast Corridor. There is also the Vegas X Train which just recently reached an agreement with Union Pacific to use the tracks between LA and Vegas. I also wouldn't be surprised to see a project in Texas soon.

----------


## libertyjam

> That's exactly the point of this thread.  There is.  The Official Propaganda maintains that passenger service cannot be done without government help.  Well, that might be true of commuter service in a nation that fights wars with borrowed money just to keep its oil prices down.  But so far as intercity (to make Melissa happy, maybe I should say 'interstate' ) service is concerned, the evidence contradicts this.
> 
> The evidence is hard to come up with, as it has been over a hundred years since any nation allowed passenger service to proceed unmolested by government interference.  In the OP, however, I do discuss some of this evidence.  And I'd love to expand on that, if I can only get some intelligent, non-trollish comments and questions.
> 
> Meanwhile, and just because you mentioned San Antonio, the _Texas Eagle_:
> 
> 
> 
> This train rolled out of St. Louis as, basically, three trains.  In the middle of the night, as the passengers slept, it stopped in Marshall and was split.  The _Texas Eagle_ proceeded to San Antonio, the _South Texas Eagle_ took sleepers full of Houston passengers, and the _West Texas Eagle_ proceeded through both Dallas and Ft. Worth to El Paso.


ah, fond memories of Union station when it was completely full of trains: 

"The station opened on September 1, 1894, and was owned by the Terminal Railroad Association of St. Louis. Designed by Theodore Link, it included three main areas: the Headhouse, the Midway and the 11.5-acre (47,000 m2) Train Shed. The headhouse originally housed a hotel, a restaurant, passenger waiting rooms and railroad ticketing offices. It featured a gold-leafed Grand Hall, Romanesque arches, a 65-foot (20 m) barrel-vaulted ceiling and stained-glass windows. The clock tower is 280 feet (85 m) high.

Union Station's headhouse and midway are constructed of Indiana limestone and initially included 42 tracks under its vast trainshed terminating in the stub-end terminal.

At its height, the station combined the St. Louis passenger services of 22 railroads, the most of any single terminal in the world. At its opening, it was the world's largest and busiest railroad station and its trainshed was the largest roof span in the world. In 1903, the station was expanded to accommodate visitors to the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair.

In the 1940s, it handled 100,000 passengers a day. The famous photograph of Harry S. Truman holding aloft the erroneous Chicago Tribune headline, "Dewey Defeats Truman", was shot at the station as Truman headed back to Washington, DC from Independence, Missouri after the 1948 Presidential election."

----------


## Anti Federalist

> 


I'm almost reluctant to ask what that Big Brother box marked ATX is...

----------


## libertyjam

> I'm almost reluctant to ask what that Big Brother box marked ATX is...


Found it, part of a telemetry system. pg 52 www.wabtec.com/railroad/WabtecFreightCatalog.pdf

----------


## jdcole

I liked the AA/US Airways merger, but only because the value of the stock jumped up from ~1.40 to it's current level (as of closing on Fri) of 2.54.

I'm a pretty loyal AA flyer, so I was pleased to hear the combined company will remain AA, Tom Horton will stay on as (non-executive) chairman of the board, and that they will be keeping the AAdvantage program, of which I am Elite Gold.  I like AA and their oneworld alliance, what can I say.  We'll see how it all flies when the merger is finalized Q3 2013 and they actually begin merging services sometime in 2014.

All that aside, AA was doing a bangup job during their bankruptcy and restructuring.  We'll see, I guess.

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

> I'm almost reluctant to ask what that Big Brother box marked ATX is...


FRED 

Flashing
Rear
End 
Device

One of the reason we no longer have cabooses.

----------


## acptulsa

Union Station.  It's still beautiful.  I have some great photos of it, but they're on film and I haven't digitized them yet.

Forty-two platform tracks served by two triple-track wyes.  Chicago would have been more impressive, except that Daley refused to allow a proper union station to be built.  There is a Union Station, but it never served all the railroads in and out of Chicago.  He decreed several stations because he wanted through travelers to have to walk or take a taxi from one station to the other.  He figured it would be good for the local economy.

Forty-two stub platform tracks (stub meaning they all dead-ended at the station).  They were on wye tracks, meaning at the other end of the platform tracks from the station you encountered a switch that would allow you to curve either left or right; generally trains were backed in.  Triple-track wyes meaning there were one hell of a lot of crossings in those curves.  It must have been amazing...

Found an old image.  It won't fit in one of these vbulletin boxes, so you'll have to click.

http://trra-hts.railfan.net/ctrspec2001.html

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I liked the AA/US Airways merger, but only because the value of the stock jumped up from ~1.40 to it's current level (as of closing on Fri) of 2.54.
> 
> I'm a pretty loyal AA flyer, so I was pleased to hear the combined company will remain AA, Tom Horton will stay on as (non-executive) chairman of the board, and that they will be keeping the AAdvantage program, of which I am Elite Gold.  I like AA and their oneworld alliance, what can I say.  We'll see how it all flies when the merger is finalized Q3 2013 and they actually begin merging services sometime in 2014.
> 
> All that aside, AA was doing a bangup job during their bankruptcy and restructuring.  We'll see, I guess.


Good for you.

Me, I'm boned with the United/Continental merger.

$#@! Jeff Smisek.

$#@! a bunch of Airbuses.

----------


## Danke

> Good for you.
> 
> Me, I'm boned with the United/Continental merger.
> 
> $#@! Jeff Smisek.
> 
> $#@! a bunch of Airbuses.


  Airbuses are more comfortable for the mundanes in the back.

----------


## acptulsa

Who doesn't have cabooses?



We've got an old M-K-T (Katy) line here in town which is now part of a local short line.  They still run this poor old Missouri Pacific (MoPac) caboose every day.  It is obviously no longer the conductor's office.  It's mainly just a permanent mount for their F.R.E.D, which you can see at the right hand end of the end platform railing.  But it's by God a caboose!

----------


## acptulsa

> Airbuses are more comfortable for the mundanes in the back.


Either beats the snot out of an Embraer, which is what passes for American (Eagle, of course) aircraft around here these days.  I can't even stand up in one.

Now, fly your aircraft into some other thread.  If it don't go clickety-clack, in this thread it's a hijack!   

Except for this one:



The ICC made them stop that service.  No competing in air freight for you, you're a railroad, they said.

----------


## jdcole

I think, overall, it's tough being of a libertarian mindset and a railfan with the current state of railroad affairs being what they are in the US.  I know the free market can do this better than government, but at the same time - I mean, c'mon - em-effin' TRAINS.  Trains are badass, you know?

I'm originally from the Minneapolis, MN, and I remember when Gov. Jesse Ventura pushed for the light rail.  A lot of people were ambiguous about it.  There was a good amount of pressure against it from local conservatives, particularly those on KSTP (AM 1500), like Jason Lewis.  

Years later, though, and after having ridden it more than enough, I can say that it's an enjoyable ride.  I like the Hiawatha Line  It's well exceeded ridership projections (with a lot of help from pro sports - MN Vikings @ Metrodome, MN Twins @ Target Field, MN Timberwolves and MN Lynx @ Target Center).  The route made sense - Downtown Minneapolis/Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport/Mall of America.  Now the track on 5th St. extends down to Target Field and has a connection to the Northstar Line, which hasn't done nearly as well as the Hiawatha Line.  

They're also laying track and building stations to go between Downtown Minneapolis and Downtown St. Paul, called the Central Corridor.  This will terminate between Target Field and the old St. Paul Union Depot.  Amtrak will be moving their Empire Builder to the St. Paul Union Depot as well.

It's all fascinating to me, really.  Em effin' trains.

----------


## acptulsa

> While researching the "T" in and around Boston...

----------


## juliusaugustus

> Amtrak only _ever_ improves the tracks they own, which are (as you'd know if you read the OP) between Harrisburg, Washington and Boston.  If you expect me to believe they've improved any others, you'll have to provide proof.  Because I think you're either mistaken or lying.
> 
> The freight railroads were not all created by the government.  They were overregulated by the ICC for decades, but this didn't last so long as a century.  Some but not all railroads used to overcharge shippers in towns where they had a monopoly so they could have rate wars on competitive routes in an effort to drive their competition out of business.  The city of Los Angeles was transformed from a sleepy village to a city of tens of thousands during just such a rate war.  Now, if they were all the government's babies, and the government loved them all and wanted them all to be happy, why would the government order them to try to kill each other, and risk their own financial survival in the process?  It didn't, of course--it created the ICC.  And since the ICC was disbanded?  The railroads have merged in ways that neither a person who believes in competition nor a person who believes in monopoly utilities can believe in.  Look up the Western Pacific some time.  Never mind you never heard of it--you have now; look it up.
> 
> *Well at the very least on local level many railroads were indeed monopolies and cities would do whatever they could to bring them in. Mises.org talks about the poorly built government subsidized railroads of yester year.*
> 
> To say that the SP held its monopoly in California through 'franchise' is simplistic and naive.  The SP built tracks where they didn't need them just to block competitors.  The SP parked locomotives on their tracks where other railroads needed to cross them so the other road couldn't put in a frog.  There were other railroads in California that the SP bought.  The Central Pacific comes to mind.  And still the competition came in--which it couldn't have done if, as you seem to believe, the state or federal government was not allowing any other railroad to operate in the state.  Stanford wound up as governor, but he never managed _that_ trick.  Just because some people were forced off their lands by force doesn't mean eminent domain was used, though arguably these incidents were extra-legal precursers to that practice.  But I will confess that there were probably a few suburban commuter lines that resorted to imminent domain shortly after the practice began on a local scale.  As far as the interstate railroads are concerned, however, they were in place in populated areas before the term was invented, and all further expansion of America's trunk lines were in unpopulated areas.  And what you call 'mail subsidies' I call the USPS getting their freight moved in a most expeditious manner--and getting their money's worth.  So which of us is right?  In the beginning, the USPS was simply another shipper.  In the end, it was institutionalized enough that you could argue it was a subsidy--certainly those passenger trains that didn't haul mail didn't make money--but the USPS still got their money's worth.
> 
> Well the history is difficult to find but here is an example of eminent domain for railroad http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/135/641/ http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(tsf...15-of-1925.pdf plus they have always had a legal right in one way or another http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/361.025 
> ...


I am a proponent of Laissez-Faire transportation but I don't support privatization at this point. The _political situation_ requires government intervention not the technology itself that is all I am arguing. Changing the political situation where transportation is a free market service might be politically near impossible to many people such as road builders and oil companies would have too much to loose. I am arguing that supporting transportation improvement from the government isn't a bad thing because of how things are. I prefer government railroads to none at all which is what the [I]political situation[I] would give us with privatization. Ending Amtrak at this time would only result in gutted service and fodder for the rail critics. The article I posted was arguing the same thing. I was simply trying to point out that the existing railroads were not Laissez-Faire in origin. The closest thing to free market railroads in this country was the Great Northern Railroad and streetcar systems which died due to government regulations which fueled that whole streetcar scandal with GM and Standard oil both of which were companies that benefited greatly from government help as well as contracts in the case of GM.
edit: Mostly what I get annoyed at is libertarians who heavily criticize rail and then at the same time praise and defend government run roads as if they are some example of the free market. Reason, Heritage, and cato Koch funded hypocrites who don't even follow their own philosophy and are really just defenders of plutocracy and corporate mouth pieces.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Airbuses are more comfortable for the mundanes in the back.


Not when they don't $#@!ing fly. 

Tulsa's right.

Clickety clack, no hijack.

Nice shot of the WW&F RR's "10 Spot" in the snow.

----------


## juliusaugustus

Pacific electric Railroad




This is a system in my local area built by Henry Huntington as a way of developing real estate. Unfortunately it suffered like other urban railways from over regulation, over taxation, and competition with government roads. Imagine if the system was still here today a foundation for a modern and efficient mass transit system. Plus it is far better than that metro crap that exists today.

----------


## acptulsa

> Well at the very least on local level many railroads were indeed monopolies and cities would do whatever they could to bring them in. Mises.org talks about the poorly built government subsidized railroads of yester year.


Why, yes, a town with only one railroad _was_ at the mercy of a monopoly, and did tend to try to attract a second road.  Who wouldn't?  As for the Mises article, it sounds interesting.  I don't suppose you'd be willing to supply a link?  Certainly when the Union Pacific/Central Pacific first transcontinental, which was (as I have admitted) both government subsidized and one of the most famous boondoggles of the nineteenth century, first opened it was barely travelable.  It took decades to make a good railroad out of it.




> You said he was opposed to government subsidized railroads even if was going to be a loan it was still subsidy. You said he was opposed to government subsidized passenger service then you said he was opposed federally subsidized service. A government subsidy is a subsidy. I have never understood the obsession with states rights it just seems like an excuse for localities to be interventionist. I do prefer more localized governments but the whole I am ok with it so long as states do it attitude is kinda annoying.


There are lots of good reasons for rail passenger service--especially commuter service--to be subsidized.  Most particularly, it can save a downtown area from becoming all parking lots.  This thread isn't about commuter service, it's about intercity rail.  Government subsidies are not all the same in my eyes.  When things are done on the federal level it leads to much more totalitarianism, if only because there is a certain amount of competition between states, and it's easier to 'opt out' by moving to another state than to leave the nation.  Also, programs done within a state do not steal money from poor states to improve service in rich states, as federal taxes in, say, Oklahoma have done to bolster several daily services through Connecticut.  The federal government takes tax money from residents of Hawaii for Amtrak.  Will Hawaii ever have Amtrak interstate service?

Now, _that's_ annoying.




> I am a proponent of Laissez-Faire transportation but I don't support privatization at this point. The _political situation_ requires government intervention not the technology itself that is all I am arguing. Changing the political situation where transportation is a free market service might be politically near impossible to many people such as road builders and oil companies would have too much to loose. I am arguing that supporting transportation improvement from the government isn't a bad thing because of how things are. I prefer government railroads to none at all which is what the [I]political situation[I] would give us with privatization. Ending Amtrak at this time would only result in gutted service and fodder for the rail critics. The article I posted was arguing the same thing. I was simply trying to point out that the existing railroads were not Laissez-Faire in origin. The closest thing to free market railroads in this country was the Great Northern Railroad and streetcar systems which died due to government regulations which fueled that whole streetcar scandal with GM and Standard oil both of which were companies that benefited greatly from government help as well as contracts in the case of GM.
> edit: Mostly what I get annoyed at is libertarians who heavily criticize rail and then at the same time praise and defend government run roads as if they are some example of the free market. Reason, Heritage, and cato Koch funded hypocrites who don't even follow their own philosophy and are really just defenders of plutocracy and corporate mouth pieces.


Just because a road was partially built on a land grant in no way means that they never once competed in a free market.  This is a ridiculous fallacy.  To say that because the Santa Fe had a land grant across Kansas that got them started, and another in the deserts of Arizona where the lands never did sell and ultimately often reverted to government ownership, the Santa Fe never competed tooth and nail with the M-K-T for cattle business out of Texas (a route that was not built on a land grant), or with the Southern Pacific, or with the UP, is disingenuous at best, and at worst--well, I'll try to be charitable...




> Pacific electric Railroad
> This is a system in my local area built by Henry Huntington as a way of developing real estate. Unfortunately it suffered like other urban railways from over regulation, over taxation, and competition with government roads. Imagine if the system was still here today a foundation for a modern and efficient mass transit system. Plus it is far better than that metro crap that exists today.


I'll never understand why their tracks were removed from the Bay Bridge.

Um, the fact that the government is only able to make power grabs like Amtrak because they make the situation impossible for free enterprise to survive in the market is kind of _the whole point of my op of this thread._  Did you ever read that?  Why don't you?

----------


## TonySutton

Just jumping in from the outside and being totally ignorant of how rail operates, would it be possible to deregulate rail similar to the way we have deregulated long distance and electric?  Where the rails would be owned by the current company but could be used by various operators who bid on time slots.  Or maybe they already do this.

What I am envisioning is a company that manages specific sections of rail.  They are responsible for maintenance of the rail.  Then other companies would operate on those railways during specific time slots that they have purchased from the rail management company.  This would allow more intercity passenger service to operate and compete with Amtrak.

Is this something that is possible or is it just too much to be able to control?

----------


## acptulsa

> What I am envisioning is a company that manages specific sections of rail.  They are responsible for maintenance of the rail.  Then other companies would operate on those railways during specific time slots that they have purchased from the rail management company.  This would allow more intercity passenger service to operate and compete with Amtrak.
> 
> Is this something that is possible or is it just too much to be able to control?


Interesting concept!


Remember that rail cars aren't packets of data.  They need propulsion,for one major difference.  Also, with duplex telegraphy technology--which is older than you think, and also originally tied to the railroads--it's easier to get them around one another.  Yes, Amtrak is an example of this sort of 'foreign traffic' and western railroad and eastern railroads do offer transcontinental services in cooperation with one another.  That sort of fits the description.

----------


## juliusaugustus

> Why, yes, a town with only one railroad _was_ at the mercy of a monopoly, and did tend to try to attract a second road.  Who wouldn't?  As for the Mises article, it sounds interesting.  I don't suppose you'd be willing to supply a link?  Certainly when the Union Pacific/Central Pacific first transcontinental, which was (as I have admitted) both government subsidized and one of the most famous boondoggles of the nineteenth century, first opened it was barely travelable.  It took decades to make a good railroad out of it.
> 
> 
> 
> There are lots of good reasons for rail passenger service--especially commuter service--to be subsidized.  Most particularly, it can save a downtown area from becoming all parking lots.  This thread isn't about commuter service, it's about intercity rail.  Government subsidies are not all the same in my eyes.  When things are done on the federal level it leads to much more totalitarianism, if only because there is a certain amount of competition between states, and it's easier to 'opt out' by moving to another state than to leave the nation.  Also, programs done within a state do not steal money from poor states to improve service in rich states, as federal taxes in, say, Oklahoma have done to bolster several daily services through Connecticut.  The federal government takes tax money from residents of Hawaii for Amtrak.  Will Hawaii ever have Amtrak interstate service?
> 
> Now, _that's_ annoying.
> 
> *Building across the ocean is impractical but Hawaii did get federal money for the building rail in Honolulu. As for the poor states those poor states often but not always take in more than they send. In my view if the government wasn't in the transportation business all together subsidies for things like commuter rail wouldn't be necessary.*
> ...


*Even without Amtrak private enterprise can't do it because they would have to compete with government run roads and airports. Private railroads died due to over regulation and subsidized competition. If one were to privatize Amtrak without deregulating and doing the same with its competition you will do exactly what I described gutted service and fodder for rail critics. A free market in transportation includes all modes not just one mode. Politically deregulating amtrak and privatizing its competition is a political impossibility. All transport subsidies need to be done away then the problem will end. Successful passenger service requires completely removing the government from the transportation business.*

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

> Just jumping in from the outside and being totally ignorant of how rail operates, would it be possible to deregulate rail similar to the way we have deregulated long distance and electric?  Where the rails would be owned by the current company but could be used by various operators who bid on time slots.  Or maybe they already do this.
> 
> What I am envisioning is a company that manages specific sections of rail.  They are responsible for maintenance of the rail.  Then other companies would operate on those railways during specific time slots that they have purchased from the rail management company.  This would allow more intercity passenger service to operate and compete with Amtrak.
> 
> Is this something that is possible or is it just too much to be able to control?


Major freight railroads already own their track. There are some circumstances where one freight railroad will enter into what is known as a trackage rights agreement to operate over another railroad's section of track. But I doubt we'll ever see the freight railroads give up control of their own mainlines.

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

> Why, yes, a town with only one railroad _was_ at the mercy of a monopoly, and did tend to try to attract a second road.  Who wouldn't?


This is why a lot of the big railroad mergers sucked. Almost every single train coming in to or out of Florida has to enter through Jacksonville. Before the 1960's, shippers to/from the Northeast had the option of the ACL or SAL. After the two lines merged, the succeeding company, CSX, abandoned the ex-SAL route into Florida, and routed all trains on the ex-ACL line. What happens when something on the CSX line goes wrong? SHTF, since there is no alternate route. Tampa, Florida was once served fairly well by the SAL and ACL, but now shippers are only left with CSX. At least in Miami, the situation is a little better with the FEC railway and CSX. Of course, since the FEC provides a high quality service, most freight to South Florida is shipped via FEC.

----------


## acptulsa

OIn regards to the Bay Bridge, I apologize for being unclear.  I meant Southern Pacific Electric, which shared those tracks with the Key System.




> *Even without Amtrak private enterprise can't do it because they would have to compete with government run roads and airports. Private railroads died due to over regulation and subsidized competition. If one were to privatize Amtrak without deregulating and doing the same with its competition you will do exactly what I described gutted service and fodder for rail critics. A free market in transportation includes all modes not just one mode. Politically deregulating amtrak and privatizing its competition is a political impossibility. All transport subsidies need to be done away then the problem will end. Successful passenger service requires completely removing the government from the transportation business.*


I have no argument with the notion of ending those subsidies.  But if you would only do us all the courtesy of please, please investing five minutes and reading the op, I think you'd learn that on some routes the railroads were competing in spite of subsidies to other forms of travel.

----------


## juliusaugustus

> OIn regards to the Bay Bridge, I apologize for being unclear.  I meant Southern Pacific Electric, which shared those tracks with the Key System.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no argument with the notion of ending those subsidies.  But if you would only do us all the courtesy of please, please investing five minutes and reading the op, I think you'd learn that on some routes the railroads were competing in spite of subsidies to other forms of travel.


I did indeed read the OP. You still have the problem of it being cheaper to drive and faster fly. IT may be true that rail could compete with subsidized modes of transport years ago however it couldn't survive today without such subsidies removed.

----------


## juliusaugustus

High speed rail can indeed be built privately
THe JR system was originally government but then the system was sold off and members of the JR system paid off the construction debt of the government.
series 500
Series 700

The rest

I here some private investors are going to build a Shinkansen in Texas by 2020. Good luck to them on that 
http://www.governing.com/blogs/fedwa...let-train.html
Taiwan's System

European Railroads are pseudo private entities which do make money contrary to popular belief and required to run unrpofitable services and pay taxes to their respective governments. Often railroads will be either separate in infrastructure and operations or systems will share trackage so you could take an ice train and in theory travel through the reast of europe or Take an sncf train into Italy.
Germany's System a personal favorite of mine



SNCF

Eurostar


NTV/Trenitalio

----------


## acptulsa

> I did indeed read the OP. You still have the problem of it being cheaper to drive and faster fly. IT may be true that rail could compete with subsidized modes of transport years ago however it couldn't survive today without such subsidies removed.


We're going to have to agree to disagree on that.  Cruise lines have disadvantages compared to air travel, too, but they seem to be surviving and even thriving.  The point is, as long as the federal boondoggle that the rail fans--who should be their captive audience--call 'Anthrax' is forced upon us, we're never going to find out.

The federal government created the problem that Amtrak is alleged to solve, the government never operated the allegedly 'vital' services that the railroads couldn't afford to continue to provide, the government simply used its power to insist that the private railroads continue to run those services to force them into turning their popular routes over to the government to run.  You say that private railroads cannot afford to run this or that, but you don't know this for a fact.  What evidence there is is evidence to the contrary.

The government created a problem by forcing railroads to operate trains that were no longer needed or wanted, the government created an invasive 'solution', and the solution has created a bigger problem--the government doesn't run it well, so it has effectively driven rail out of fashion and ensured that rail travel does not come back into fashion in this nation.  The UP runs excursions, which is as much as it can do without bringing the fedgov down on it like a ton of bricks.  This alone is pretty compelling evidence that the private railroads are neither disinterested in providing us with superior service nor dismayed at the prospects of it operating at a sufficient profit.

And this in spite of the fact that highways and airports are indeed still subsidized.

I'm not likely to concede this point unless and until the federal government gives the railroads room to make the experiment and it fails.

Japan is, of course, different.  The population density of Japan makes many things possible.  That said, the Indian-Pacific in Australia is evidence of what we could do, if our own government were less interested in ruling over us and more interested in serving us.  It's a pity we're in the predicament where we can't endeavor to make a success of such things on our own.

And on a completely unrelated note, my post count today inspires me to post a pic of an Erie Duplex compound.



Too many legs, not enough steam.

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

JR is a private company that makes billions of dollars in profit, but it also owns a lot of real estate....transit oriented development basically.

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

NTV in Italy is privately owned, but it uses government funded ROW. Basically the railroad version of Greyhound on interstate highways.

----------


## juliusaugustus

> NTV in Italy is privately owned, but it uses government funded ROW. Basically the railroad version of Greyhound on interstate highways.


They don't get those for free though they pay for usage of them and don't get preferential access Trenitalia gets no subsidies.



> JR is a private company that makes billions of dollars in profit, but it also owns a lot of real estate....transit oriented development basically.


As For Japan their railways are profitable with or without the real estate development. If anything the developments are far larger than just transit oriented developments they are integrated communities if anything the developments attract people to trains not the other way around. Financial records show that it could financially sustain itself 
http://www.jrtr.net/jrtr10/pdf/f02_sai.pdf
http://pedestrianobservations.wordpr...is-profitable/



> Japan is, of course, different. The population density of Japan makes many things possible. That said, the Indian-Pacific in Australia is evidence of what we could do, if our own government were less interested in ruling over us and more interested in serving us. It's a pity we're in the predicament where we can't endeavor to make a success of such things on our own.


I don't get why Japan is special. Density is simply a measure of users and in the case of users you adjust accordingly density effects normal passenger rail as well. Japan is about the same size as many states in the US. Also there are successful high speed rail system in lower density areas like spain and Russia. Really High speed rail isn't special it is just passenger rail at higher than usual speeds it is infrastructurally intensive but electrical lines offer advantages outside of high speed rail. Electrical lines could be used as a way of breaking utility monopolies and you could use them to sell electricity and provide extra revenue for a railroad. The demographics of the US are the result of government intervention whether it be euclidean zoning, minimum parking requirements, mortage deductions, FHA guaranteed loans, lot size restrictions, government housing or density restrictions doing away with those interventions should make the US more suited for passenger rail and transit. my .02 fiat currency

----------


## Anti Federalist

> And on a completely unrelated note, my post count today inspires me to post a pic of an Erie Duplex compound.
> 
> 
> 
> Too many legs, not enough steam.


I have book of "builder's plates", photos of new builds as they left the yard, I was just reading up on those locomotives.

(well played on the post count)

Not enough steam is right.

----------


## acptulsa

> I don't get why Japan is special. Density is simply a measure of users and in the case of users you adjust accordingly density effects normal passenger rail as well.


Affects?  Yes, density affects all passenger rail.  It has a real effect.  If you run from point A to point B, and both point A and point B have billions of people, that's good for business.  How could that possibly not be special? 




> Japan is about the same size as many states in the US.


As in, there are 145,925 square miles to cover?  Well, yes.  As in, lots of states have populations of 127,000,000 potential customers?  Are you nuts?




> Also there are successful high speed rail system in lower density areas like spain and Russia. Really High speed rail isn't special it is just passenger rail at higher than usual speeds it is infrastructurally intensive but electrical lines offer advantages outside of high speed rail. Electrical lines could be used as a way of breaking utility monopolies and you could use them to sell electricity and provide extra revenue for a railroad.


Can we talk real world for a moment, please?  Electrical lines exist in a real world, and so does weather, and weather insists that electrical lines be maintained.  Constantly.  Third rails aren't so labor-intensive, but they sure are liability-intensive, and America is the land of lack of tort reform.  Simply put, if electrical plants made economic sense in the U.S, then someone besides the federal government would install them and no railroads would take them out.  Such is not the case here.




> The demographics of the US are the result of government intervention whether it be euclidean zoning, minimum parking requirements, mortage deductions, FHA guaranteed loans, lot size restrictions, government housing or density restrictions doing away with those interventions should make the US more suited for passenger rail and transit. my .02 fiat currency


Well, yes.  But only some of these things really interfere in any kind of a meaningful way here.  And those are what I'm lobbying against with this thread.




> I have book of "builder's plates", photos of new builds as they left the yard, I was just reading up on those locomotives.
> 
> (well played on the post count)
> 
> Not enough steam is right.


Sticking half a dozen cylinders on a steamer, two of them under the tender, is like building a six cylinder gas engine with the carburetor of a lawn mower.  And that's about how well these beasts ran.

And for those confused about the post count reference--my post count was 28,884, and according to the Whyte Classification System, this Duplex has a wheel arrangement of..:


...............2------------------8------------------------8----------------------8---------4
(give or take a few hyphens).

Normally, the wheels under the tender didn't figure into the Whyte System.  Normally, engines the Whyte System was used to classify worked well, too...

----------


## TonySutton

For the record only 4 US states have more land area than Japan and NO US states have anywhere near the population of Japan.  The closest is California which only has 30% of Japans population while being 12% larger in area.

----------


## TonySutton

Only New Jersey and Rhode Island have population density of Japan while Massachusetts is just below it.  Most other states are no where close.

----------


## acptulsa

Meanwhile, in another thread...




> 


Even if that's three microbus bodies, it can't weigh five thousand pounds.  What the hell does it need four trucks and eight axles for?

Now a Navy nuclear reactor...

----------


## juliusaugustus

http://www.ebbc.org/rail/fra.html
How the FRA is regulating passenger rail out of existence.

----------


## acptulsa

> http://www.ebbc.org/rail/fra.html
> How the FRA is regulating passenger rail out of existence.


And interesting read, and a nice addition to the conversation.

Interesting how bizarre the two examples of laws 'grandfathering in' stuff are.  On the one hand, the fact that vintage equipment is 'grandfathered in', and exempt from the silly modern regulations, is leading certain commuter services to seriously consider running vintage equipment.  On the other hand, you have rail routes subjected to this garbage not because they run heavy freight trains, but because these tracks _once upon a time_ saw heavy freight trains.

I'm not complaining about vintage equipment being allowed; I'm a huge fan of historic excursion railroads.  And so, I almost hesitate to bring the subject up for fear of calling attention to what the federal government probably already considers a 'problem'.  But, simply put, when was the last time you heard of a historic excursion railroad killing a passenger?  It's a good thing the Budd Company did such good work sixty years ago.  It's no accident that those antiques represent such a huge portion of the excursion business, and no insignificant portion of commuter service as well.

As for the notion that a line that saw freight service fifty years ago should still be considered a freight railroad, well, that's almost as silly as the notion that any of these regulations are necessary at all.  Clearly the first step toward fuel-efficient, environmentally-friendly rail travel in this nation is to disband the FRA and repeal everything it has shoved through Congress...

On the one hand, I find it odd that Amtrak is subject to the dictums of the FRA.  The Boondoggle known as Amtrak was created specifically because it was immune to the ICC.  The railroads could not drop unpopular services but Amtrak, being the government, could; this is how they sold Amtrak as 'necessary'.  On the other hand, I can sure see how these silly regulations could lead to more federal overreach.  Because the FRA demands this impossible stuff of any entity that operates over a line that _ever_ hauled freight, I can see this being used as an excuse to abandon existing lines between a city and a suburb and replacing them with new lines between the very same locations.  After all, who but the government has the money to waste, and sufficient power of imminent domain, to displace so many and tear down such a quantity of perfectly good buildings?

Create a problem, wait for the reaction, create a solution worse than the problem.  And all the while, pretend that the problem in innate and natural, and wasn't in fact created by the government in the first place.  Can't have the mundanes learning that all we need to thrive is half of the federal code repealed...

----------


## Anti Federalist

> http://www.ebbc.org/rail/fra.html
> How the FRA is regulating passenger rail out of existence.


That was a good read, although not at all surprising, the FedCoats destroying another industry, what a shock...

Answered a question I had too, as I thought a whistle blast was required at every crossing:


Many communities throughout the US sprung up along rail lines. In the greater Chicago area (a major rail hub) some 1.2 million residents live within one quarter mile of a grade crossing. In Beverly, MA (a suburb of Boston) the lifting of the horn ban on the city's 17 crossings would result in an average of two horns blowing every minute of every day.

----------


## acptulsa

> Answered a question I had too, as I thought a whistle blast was required at every crossing:


No, communities have been outlawing it for years.  The railroads will blow the horn for any crossing unless local ordinance forbids it.  This is a liability issue; if there's no law against it, some lawyer somewhere will try to sue the railroad if they don't.

It's much, much more recently that the federal government decided to use this fact as an excuse to start redesigning grade crossings for us.  No doubt this, too, will escalate--to the point that all this crap is required at every spot where a twice-a-week short line intersects a dirt goat path in the whole nation.  Whether anything bigger than a badger has _ever_ died there or not.

----------


## Anti Federalist

_Safety Uber Alles_





> No, communities have been outlawing it for years.  The railroads will blow the horn for any crossing unless local ordinance forbids it.  This is a liability issue; if there's no law against it, some lawyer somewhere will try to sue the railroad if they don't.
> 
> It's much, much more recently that the federal government decided to use this fact as an excuse to start redesigning grade crossings for us.  No doubt this, too, will escalate--to the point that all this crap is required at every spot where a twice-a-week short line intersects a dirt goat path in the whole nation.  Whether anything bigger than a badger has _ever_ died there or not.

----------


## acptulsa

> _Safety Uber Alles_


Garnering brib--er, I mean _campaign contributions_ from the companies that make crossing gates _uber alles._

----------


## acptulsa

Some of the most remarkable photography ever:  O Winston Link's _flash_ photography of the waning days of Norfolk and Western steam...











Impressed yet?  Know anything about flash photography?  Have you begun to realize, yet, how many flash bulbs each of those photos represents..?

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

Nice collection. 




> 


I found this the most interesting. Three modes of transportation in one shot.

----------


## acptulsa

> I found this the most interesting. Three modes of transportation in one shot.


They weren't at all sure the screen would be bright enough to show up.  And they sure didn't know they'd get an airplane on the screen.  These photos weren't tripped by the cameraman.  The locomotive itself set off everything.

Though the speed of light in the atmosphere is so fast that even the fastest camera shutter is slow in comparison, he actually had to use slow-blo fusible links to set stuff off in order to synchronise everything.  After all, the light might reach the camera in a tiny fraction of a second, but the electricity on the way to the flash bulbs was moving through copper wire, and therefore moving relatively slowly.

The Buick in the foreground is Link's (the couple is his assistant and the latter's wife), and the equipment for this photography filled its cavernous trunk and much of the back seat.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Men, listen, I had a shipmate send this to me for Christmas:

http://www.amazon.com/O-Winston-Link....+Winston+Link



It is a *fantastic* book of Link's photography, and railroad information.

I, in turn, sent one to my brother, who enjoyed it just as much.

*Highly* recommended for the rail fan or historian. 

Five Stars.

----------


## juliusaugustus

Somewhat related Suburban communism
worldoftommy.com/?p=118

----------


## acptulsa

> Somewhat related Suburban communism
> worldoftommy.com/?p=118


Here I was being charitable and not commenting on that abject silliness in your thread.  Now you want to bring it into my thread.

So, cars are more communist as privately owned vehicles on public roadways than commuter trains, which are, in cases, publicly owned vehicles on privately owned rails.  Even though, when those rails are privately owned, the community forces the private entity to allow them to be run on their track.  And even though a great many commuter routes are, these days, owned by the communities.

Sounds like a logical extension of the ever-prevalent modern argument that capitalism is as bad as communism, because what we have is communism, but we call it capitalism, and being communism, it fails as completely as communism even when it's called capitalism.

More modern miseducation hogwash.  Suburbia is going totalitarian more quickly than rural areas, but not as quickly as cities.  And arguing that the fact that our Dear Leaders refuse to call our totalitarianism what it is, and the fact that we're in denial about the fact that it's totalitarianism and call it freedom, doesn't mean that freedom (the real thing) is as bad as totalitarianism.

Call a turd a rose and it will still smell like $#@!.  Be stupid enough to believe a turd is a rose and you'll be afraid to enjoy a real rose when you encounter one.  They have a name for that.  It's called being a loser.

Go away and come back if you actually find another interesting article like the one about the FRA.

----------


## juliusaugustus

More rants on the FRA
http://pedestrianobservations.wordpr...-a-revolution/

----------


## juliusaugustus

> Here I was being charitable and not commenting on that abject silliness in your thread.  Now you want to bring it into my thread.
> 
> So, cars are more communist as privately owned vehicles on public roadways than commuter trains, which are, in cases, publicly owned vehicles on privately owned rails.  Even though, when those rails are privately owned, the community forces the private entity to allow them to be run on their track.  And even though a great many commuter routes are, these days, owned by the communities.
> 
> *Well no my point is that government roads are communist and they were built in a time of privately owned railroads. When people ask are government roads communists I always answer yes. Government railroads by extension are certainly communist. Government run railroads are result of problems created by the government while government run roads were created to satisfy the desire for socialism and lobbying from auto, oil, and tire interests. Car themselves being communist one could argue that being as many countries including the US have subsidized or nationalized automobile production sounds pretty darn communist to me.*
> 
> Sounds like a logical extension of the ever-prevalent modern argument that capitalism is as bad as communism, because what we have is communism, but we call it capitalism, and being communism, it fails as completely as communism even when it's called capitalism.
> 
> *That is why in my view one should support free markets not capitalism because when you use that term you fall for the Marxist's trap. Capitalism is a Marxist term. Free markets is a lot less confusing.*
> ...


I digress the main barrier to entry for improved passenger rail and mass transit is suburbia in my opinion and even if it was really created by market forces it is still worth criticizing (which it clearly wasn't). People like Wendell Cox, Randal O'toole, reason magazine have gone as far as to say new urbanism and smart growth are communist which is ridiculous and I wanted to point out the communistic features of suburbia. Sorry if I added an off topic thing. I also added a new article on what to be done about the FRA hint: get rid of them.

----------


## acptulsa

> I also added a new article on what to be done about the FRA hint: get rid of them.


Something you, Levy and I can be in complete agreement on.  Though I'm not in 100% agreement with Levy.  He thinks the FRA should be given one more chance to prove themselves worthy of existing.  I think the agency should follow the ICC to the dustbin of history with neither discretion nor delay.




> FRA’s regulatory approach to passenger equipment safety is balanced and does incorporate both crash avoidance and crashworthiness measures.  FRA necessarily considers the safety of the rail system as a whole, beginning with ways first to avoid an accident, such as through adherence to standards for railroad signal and operating systems (to avoid a collision) and railroad track (to avoid a derailment).  Yet, FRA is indeed concerned about mitigating the consequences of an accident, should one occur, and crashworthiness features are an essential complement to crash avoidance measures in providing for the overall safety of the rail system.


Uh, guys.  Making rail passenger cars so heavy that passenger trains, like freight trains, slide for three miles between when their brakes are applied and when they stop isn't exactly an effective method of collision avoidance...  

Seems to me any city with a lick of sense would go out of their way to make their commuter trains do double duty as 'tourist railroads', and thus get themselves a fat, much-needed exemption from a whole bunch of FRA crap.  And it could certainly be done.  Can't help but imagine buying this brand of power would be sufficient...




> Brand new British "Peppercorn" class, completed in 2009.


It wouldn't be that difficult to disguise these as historic American locomotives.  They could be modified to look quite convincing.

----------


## juliusaugustus

> It wouldn't be that difficult to disguise these as historic American locomotives.  They could be modified to look quite convincing.


Why would you want to disguise it looks fine as is

----------


## acptulsa

> Why would you want to disguise it looks fine as is


It would still look fine.  But American historic tourist railroads tend to emphasize American railroad history.  And there would be functional advantages as well.  A taller cab would look better with American coaches and provide better visibility, a bigger tender would extend range, a larger steam dome and sandbox just make operation easier, a taller stack aids the flue and adds efficiency, and a higher headlight and an American pilot ('cowcatcher' if you prefer) would be an aid to safety.  There's a reason American locomotives had their unique look--those features that made them unique aid operations under American conditions.

Would it look better?  Debatable.  As is, that's one clean-lined engine, and its proportions sure emphasize those tall driving wheels.  But it would still look awfully good.




Yes, it would be a shame to use shorter driving wheels.  But commuter trains don't need to be capable of 125 mph, and those tall drivers are no aid to traction.  Otherwise, and aside from the pilot and the headlight placement, the changes are things the British would have done themselves if they had the higher bridges and taller tunnels that we have.

Here's another engine with a 'modern', high pressure boiler of about the right size for a light Pacific type that would be perfect for modern commuter service.



If we still have blueprints for them, and were to revise the frame with more drive wheels of a smaller diameter and a more conventional smokebox, that would be a never-before-seen yet proven light Pacific.  I'm not sure steam power would automatically qualify any commuter run as a 'tourist railroad' under FRA regulations, but if it does, that and the way steam draws passengers like a magnet could make steam far and away the most efficient passenger power American railroads could possibly hope to run.  And you can run them on anything that burns--including abundant coal or all manner of 'green' fuels.

This sure would be a fun conversation to have with a liberal.  You want passenger trains in the U.S?  Forget high-speed rail.  Federal regulations make that impossible.  Your best bet is steam.  That would qualify it as a tourist railroad and exempt it from regulations that would otherwise require the coaches weigh _twice as much or more_.  So, anything but steam would _make it too inefficient to operate._  Only the federal government--_Only_ the federal government--could possibly make a train as fuel-inefficient as a few jetliners or a fleet of automobiles.  And you wonder why we libertarians are against Washington, District of Calamity regulations.

Washington doesn't keep us safe.  It keeps us stupid.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> This sure would be a fun conversation to have with a liberal.  You want passenger trains in the U.S?  Forget high-speed rail.  Federal regulations make that impossible.  Your best bet is steam.  That would qualify it as a tourist railroad and exempt it from regulations that would otherwise require the coaches weigh _twice as much or more_.  So, anything but steam would _make it too inefficient to operate._  Only the federal government--_Only_ the federal government--could possibly make a train as fuel-inefficient as a few jetliners or a fleet of automobiles.  And you wonder why we libertarians are against Washington, District of Calamity regulations.
> 
> Washington doesn't keep us safe.  It keeps us stupid.


That may be the best thing I will read today.

Stupid *and* enslaved, as we we jump from foot to foot and run around with our hair on fire, trying to comply with the un-compliable.

+rep.

----------


## juliusaugustus

> That may be the best thing I will read today.
> 
> Stupid *and* enslaved, as we we jump from foot to foot and run around with our hair on fire, trying to comply with the un-compliable.
> 
> +rep.


The FRA changed some regulations
http://1.usa.gov/ZI561V

----------


## acptulsa



----------


## cheapseats

*Wireless Electricity Transmission Being Deployed to Power Korean Mass Transit
*
February 15th, 2013 | by Michael Keller


Korean trams and buses are moving away from overhead power wires and high-voltage third railsliterally.

Researchers at the Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology (KAIST) have made major advances in wireless power transfer for mass transit systems. The fruits of their labor, systems called On-line Electric Vehicles (OLEV), are already being road tested around Korea.

At its heart, the technology uses inductive coupling to wirelessly transmit electricity from power cables embedded in roadways to pick-up coils installed under the floor of electric vehicles.

*The work was hailed as one of the years top 10 emerging technologies by the World Economic Forum this week.
*
Engineers say the transmitting technology supplies 180 kW of stable, constant power at 60 kHz to passing vehicles that are equipped with receivers. The initial OLEV models above received 100 kW of power at 20 kHz through an almost eight-inch air gap. They have recorded 85 percent transmission efficiency through testing so far.

The wireless electricity that powers the vehicles motors and systems is also used to charge an on-board battery that supplies energy to the vehicle when it is away from the power line.

KAIST plans to start deploying the OLEV technology to tramlines in May and high-speed trains in September.

We have greatly improved the OLEV technology from the early development stage by increasing its power transmission density by more than three times, said Dong-Ho Cho, the director of KAISTs Center for Wireless Power Transfer Technology Business Development, in a release. The size and weight of the power pickup modules have been reduced as well. We were able to cut down the production costs for major OLEV components, the power supply, and the pickup system, and in turn, OLEV is one step closer to being commercialized.

The institute announced that buses equipped with the wireless power transfer technology are already used daily by students on the KAIST campus in Daejeon, while others are undergoing road tests in Seoul. Two more OLEV buses will begin trial operations in the city of Gumi in July.

Proponents say that the technology banishes overhead power lines and rails for electric trams and buses, dramatically lowers the costs of railway wear and tear and allows smaller tunnels to be built for electric vehicle infrastructure, lowering construction costs.

http://txchnologist.com/post/4316035...ng-deployed-to

----------


## Anti Federalist

Don't know if I posted this or not, great old New Haven corporate film.

----------


## Anti Federalist

They had it figured out 60 years ago.

The last ten minutes.

----------


## acptulsa

> They had it figured out 60 years ago.
> 
> The last ten minutes.


The last six minutes with old Alfred Perlman do the trick.  You want an increasing standard of living?  Well, _you can't have it--unless_ you make Washington straighten up and do right.

----------


## juliusaugustus

This was the Pacific Electric
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiLGui8fxiw
too bad it had to go now commute times have quadrupled and polution has become a major problem. Damn LA government for killing the great free market technologies.

----------


## acptulsa

> This was the Pacific Electric
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiLGui8fxiw
> too bad it had to go now commute times have quadrupled and polution has become a major problem. Damn LA government for killing the great free market technologies.


Actually, that looks like a pretty laughable piece of propaganda.  To say that the PE was directly responsible for the spread of LA today, or to intimate that Los Angeles invented the suburb, is ridiculous.  Even so, there's just enough good footage in there that it deserves to be embedded.




A rail system is generally like a tree.  It has its branches.  And, obviously, suburbia in the days before the Model T clung to those branches.  The sprawl that is modern Los Angeles didn't really even begin to come to fruition until about the time the PE went the way of all flesh.  I don't blame you for falling for this.  You don't seem to be from this nation, and it's only understandable that you don't understand how Los Angeles (unlike the centuries-old metropoli of the Old World) sprang out of the basin in a matter of months during a price war between the Southern Pacific and the Santa Fe.

No, the rise of LA has more to do with a pair of steam-powered transcontinentals than the PE, the sprawling nature of LA has as much to do with the rise of the affordable automobile as with the Pacific Electric, and the death of the Red Cars is attributable to just what Alfred Perlman was talking about in the New York Central promotional film AF posted on the previous page--GM, Firestone and the oil companies promoted a regulatory culture in the U.S. that supported and encouraged the automobile and the road-going bus (and, on a broader scale, air travel) over the greater efficiencies of rail.

Nice clip, though, and fodder for good discussion.  Thanks.

----------


## juliusaugustus

> Actually, that looks like a pretty laughable piece of propaganda.  To say that the PE was directly responsible for the spread of LA today, or to intimate that Los Angeles invented the suburb, is ridiculous.  Even so, there's just enough good footage in there that it deserves to be embedded.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A rail system is generally like a tree.  It has its branches.  And, obviously, suburbia in the days before the Model T clung to those branches.  The sprawl that is modern Los Angeles didn't really even begin to come to fruition until about the time the PE went the way of all flesh.  I don't blame you for falling for this.  You don't seem to be from this nation, and it's only understandable that you don't understand how Los Angeles (unlike the centuries-old metropoli of the Old World) sprang out of the basin in a matter of months during a price war between the Southern Pacific and the Santa Fe.
> 
> No, the rise of LA has more to do with a pair of steam-powered transcontinentals than the PE, the sprawling nature of LA has as much to do with the rise of the affordable automobile as with the Pacific Electric, and the death of the Red Cars is attributable to just what Alfred Perlman was talking about in the New York Central promotional film AF posted on the previous page--GM, Firestone and the oil companies promoted a regulatory culture in the U.S. that supported and encouraged the automobile and the road-going bus (and, on a broader scale, air travel) over the greater efficiencies of rail.
> 
> Nice clip, though, and fodder for good discussion.  Thanks.


I am from this country. The Pacific electric was near where I lived. The Red Cars made Socal what it is. NCL had little to with Los Angeles. NCL owned the yellow cars not the red cars contrary to popular belief. SP bought the red cars as a way of eliminating competition because the Red Cars were competition to conventional passenger routes. The System was itself eliminated to make way for freeways and what remains of it is in the form freight routes owned by UP and light rail owned by Metro. The people behind the elimination were AAA who thought getting rid of them would improve traffic but this made things worse. Most of the communities that exist today are descendants of the ones built by PE. PE was used as a way to stirring development. They shouldn't call LA suburbia but streetcar suburbs which predate the auto suburbs. Newport Beach, Santa Monica, Huntington Beach and other communities were created by the Red Cars. The Balboa Pavilion was where the system ended. Obviously LA didn't originate from the Red Cars but the development and housing are a result of the Red Cars of course the freeways completely follow the Red Car routes.

----------


## Anti Federalist

So _"Who Framed Roger Rabbit"_ was partially true?

Whodathunkit?

----------


## juliusaugustus

Pacific Electric at the Balboa Pavilion


At the pavilion there was the Balboa Fun Zone which today is currently in a state of depression and decline.

----------


## juliusaugustus

> So _"Who Framed Roger Rabbit"_ was partially true?
> 
> Whodathunkit?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OquSczOMkO4
my god it will be beautiful.

----------


## acptulsa

I'd just like to point out that Southern California isn't the only place where cool interurbans encouraged the development of suburbia, or where ill-conceived and ill-executed government policies drove them out.

But as long as Southern California is being discussed, how about a quick glimpse of what the _San Diegan_ looked like before the federal ICC forced (literally and despite the fact that the ATSF didn't want to go) American railroads out of the passenger train business?



The Red Cars were a loss.  But the Silver Cars and the Red-Nosed Diesels were a greater loss.

----------


## juliusaugustus

> I'd just like to point out that Southern California isn't the only place where cool interurbans encouraged the development of suburbia, or where ill-conceived and ill-executed government policies drove them out.
> 
> But as long as Southern California is being discussed, how about a quick glimpse of what the _San Diegan_ looked like before the federal ICC forced (literally and despite the fact that the ATSF didn't want to go) American railroads out of the passenger train business?
> 
> 
> 
> The Red Cars were a loss.  But the Silver Cars and the Red-Nosed Diesels were a greater loss.


Well the difference  is that service is still here. I can take the metrolink and commute to work or go from LA to SD via the surfliner. The Red Cars are pretty much all gone will the San Diegan still exists just not in its original form.
The government's passenger trains don't look too bad

----------


## acptulsa

> Well the difference  is that service is still here. I can take the metrolink and commute to work or go from LA to SD via the surfliner. The Red Cars are pretty much all gone will the San Diegan still exists just not in its original form.


There have been other changes besides the looks.  For instance, the fastest running time today harkens back to the 1938 introduction of the service, when it ran in two hours and forty five minutes.  But in 1957, for example, there was a two and a half hour service available...

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I'd just like to point out that Southern California isn't the only place where cool interurbans encouraged the development of suburbia, or where ill-conceived and ill-executed government policies drove them.


Long Island the Jersey Shore and pretty much everything on the Florida East Coast south of St. Augustine.

----------


## juliusaugustus

More pictures of the Pacific electric.

----------


## juliusaugustus

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0393342379/...t_sb_ti_hist_2
This book provides some insight into the corruption of the early government run railroads. It does however ignore some important facts. It makes the case for getting government out of the infrastructure business

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

> Long Island the Jersey Shore and pretty much everything on the *Florida East Coast south of St. Augustine*.


Yup. I'm pretty sure every city on the Florida East Coast has a Flagler Street.

----------


## acptulsa

> http://www.amazon.com/dp/0393342379/...t_sb_ti_hist_2
> This book provides some insight into the corruption of the early government run railroads. It does however ignore some important facts. It makes the case for getting government out of the infrastructure business


Oh, good God.  No wonder.

You really ought to be more careful what manner of brainwashing you expose yourself to.




> But questioning these accomplishments is what this book does.  The issue is not whether transcontinentals eventually proved a good idea; it is whether they were a good idea in the mid to late nineteenth century.  The idea of a transcontinental railroad was not in and of itself bad, but why were so many of these railroads built at a time when there was so little need of them?


So what we have here is a tome dedicated to the proposition of misportraying these railroads as socialism because they were established through land grants and were sometimes bailed out later, and at the same time saying they _should_ have been done through socialism because a good socialist would have, for example, set up the northern transcontinentals in the 1870s and developed that region, then done the southern transcontinentals in the 1880s so Arizona could develop when it wouldn't distract from the development of Montana.

Well, that's as ambitious as it is sophist, arrogant and meaningless.  The nineteenth century was not a time when any part of 'The West' was likely to be ignored in order to better promote any other.  And if it had been (follow me here, as this is an important distinction) and _to the extent that it was_ was not due to high-minded ideals of socialism but simply because some politician or another had succeeded in getting his own promoted over someone else's (railroad, territory, all of the above).  The idea that, with nineteenth century technology, the self-styled 'masters' in Washington could have slowed growth in one part of the West in favor of another (they couldn't even keep the settlers out of Indian Territory) or could have somehow managed it better or managed the railroads better (they couldn't even manage the only one Congress was funding--it turned into the Boondoggle of the Century) is hilarious.  This Dick White can engage in a thousand pages of mental masturbation playing armchair quarterback, and stroke himself with the notion that he could have done it better.  But it doesn't mean a damned thing.

Excuse me if I remain stubbornly unimpressed by Dick White's gloriously misguided revisionism.




> Yup. I'm pretty sure every city on the Florida East Coast has a Flagler Street.


Oh, Flagler had no more of a monopoly on electric interurbans than the PE did.  The Tulsa-Sapulpa Union was one of the few electric lines that was actually better known for freight than passenger traffic.

----------


## Anti Federalist

LOL @ Currency devaluation.

Scanned from a book of mine that chronicles the "broad gauge" logging RRs of NH.

Note the locomotive cost. 



Nice thing about this book (Logging Railroads of New Hampshire's North Country by Bill Gove  http://www.amazon.com/Logging-Railro...+north+country ) is that the author cites numerous company ledgers and logs.

By doing so, two things jumped out at me:

1 - Logging and railroading under the toughest winter conditions that you'd be likely to find anywhere, was NOT as deadly and dangerous as you might have expected. When you consider that almost all of it was done with *no* regulation from the state or FedCoats, it makes their "Regulation State" argument even weaker.

2 - The value of the dollar has truly collapsed. These operations started in the latter decades of the 19th century and went through to about WWI. A fully functional standard gauge locomotive, used, $625. A "high stepping" Manchester Locomotive Works 2-6-0, brand new, $17,000. All sorts of Lima built Shays, from $1,000 to $5,000. A quote to "grub" out 15 miles of Wild River RR roadbed, 12 foot wide cleared, ballasted, ties every two and half feet (no rails) - $1.50 per rod or about *9 cents a foot*.

Total cost to build the 8.5 mile Millsfield RR was $9050.

Wages paid on that job were highest for blacksmiths and clerks at $.37 and half cents an hour.

----------


## juliusaugustus

> LOL @ Currency devaluation.
> 
> Scanned from a book of mine that chronicles the "broad gauge" logging RRs of NH.
> 
> Note the locomotive cost. 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice thing about this book (Logging Railroads of New Hampshire's North Country by Bill Gove  http://www.amazon.com/Logging-Railro...+north+country ) is that the author cites numerous company ledgers and logs.
> ...


Someone needs to invent a time machine so I can buy things.

----------


## acptulsa

> Someone needs to invent a time machine so I can buy things.


With what?  That counterfeit crap in your pocket?  Why go back in time just to be jailed?

----------


## juliusaugustus

> Oh, good God.  No wonder.
> 
> You really ought to be more careful what manner of brainwashing you expose yourself to.
> 
> 
> 
> So what we have here is a tome dedicated to the proposition of misportraying these railroads as socialism because they were established through land grants and were sometimes bailed out later, and at the same time saying they _should_ have been done through socialism because a good socialist would have, for example, set up the northern transcontinentals in the 1870s and developed that region, then done the southern transcontinentals in the 1880s so Arizona could develop when it wouldn't distract from the development of Montana.
> 
> *I don't agree establishing the railroads through government but the criticisms of American railroads are perfectly valid. Many early railroads were overbuilt or inefficiently built or built too early. You keep insisting that Railroads received no subsidies or that they were paid off. A subsidy that is paid back is still a subsidy. Would the bailouts that banks get are those not be subsidies they are paid back as well? At the very least land grants and loans constitute a form of state privilege even if you assert they are not subsidies. Trying to argue that 19th century railroads are Laissez-Faire only plays into the myth that the magical government saved us from the evil free market "robber barons". In my view the land should have been sold for monetary value and more railroads should have built without government, but you can't change what already happened.*
> ...


*Certainly he get things wrong but it is better than being told by a large group of historians that the early railroads were these godly things nor are we ever told of the failed railroads or the corruption. I don't agree with the solution, the solution is no government involvement at all.*
also the transcontinental railroad got direct payment for building railroads that most definitely is subsidy http://mises.org/daily/2522

----------


## juliusaugustus

> With what?  That counterfeit crap in your pocket?  Why go back in time just to be jailed?


With gold, silver, or greenbacks.

----------


## acptulsa

> I don't agree establishing the railroads through government but the criticisms of American railroads are perfectly valid. Many early railroads were overbuilt or inefficiently built or built too early. You keep insisting that Railroads received no subsidies or that they were paid off. A subsidy that is paid back is still a subsidy. Would the bailouts that banks get are those not be subsidies they are paid back as well? At the very least land grants and loans constitute a form of state privilege even if you assert they are not subsidies. Trying to argue that 19th century railroads are Laissez-Faire only plays into the myth that the magical government saved us from the evil free market "robber barons". In my view the land should have been sold for monetary value and more railroads should have built without government, but you can't change what already happened.


Well, of course many early railroads were overbuilt.  By modern, mechanized standards, they were _all_ built most inefficiently--God help us if we couldn't make that true a hundred fifty to a hundred eighty years later.  And I never said that land grants were laissez-faire.  I merely pointed out that the current liberal bent for painting them as some grand gift to these rich rail barons is one-sided to the point of making a mockery of history.  Naturally they were a form of state privilege, and naturally it paid to know some character such as Senator Pomeroy if you wanted a piece of the action.  Doesn't change the fact that the land had no monetary value without the railroads on it.




> Certainly he get things wrong but it is better than being told by a large group of historians that the early railroads were these godly things nor are we ever told of the failed railroads or the corruption. I don't agree with the solution, the solution is no government involvement at all.


I don't think a lack of government involvement is such a bad thing.  As a general rule, the more government the more problems.  And I don't know what history you're referring to that calls early railroads godly or infallible or lacking corruption.  Hell, merely mentioning the Vanderbilts evoked the New York Central and Hudson River, and where is it now?  Merely mentioning Jay Gould evokes the Erie, and where is that now?  And you don't even have to scratch the surface of these stories to discover that there were winners and losers.  Do scratch the surface, and you find it hard to draw the line between winners and losers--many a road made its builders rich not by being needed or successful, but by being sold to a road that didn't want it as competition, or as part of the competition--like they ransomed themselves.

I don't know where you've been encountering these simplistic histories, or if you actually have (maybe you're just taking Mr. Dick White's word that they exist?).  But the solution to oversimplification is not Mr. White's brand of Monday morning quarterbackery quackery.




> With gold, silver, or greenbacks.


Um, vintage greenbacks aren't easy to come by, and if you use gold and silver you don't get the price break that seems to be making you lick your chops.

----------


## juliusaugustus

Vacuum Tube Maglev Trains are the Future. Also google Vactrain or a different approach to the technology ET3 which involves pods. I view trains to be the superior solution because they offer more space and carry people more efficiently than individual vehicles. The technology could very easily replace Airplanes atleast as a form of land travel. Such a system could be powered by thorium or other sources of energy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7M3EOD_GzE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSJXvQu4hjw
http://www.popsci.com/scitech/articl...tlantic-maglev
http://www.dvice.com/archives/2010/0...-hatches-p.php

----------


## acptulsa

> Vacuum Tube Magev Trains are the Future.


Are we trying to say 'mag*l*ev', as in short for *mag*netic *lev*itation?




> Also google Vactrain or a different approach to the technology ET3 which involves pods.


Pods aren't trains.  Pods are pods.  Only trains of pods are trains.




> I view trains to be the superior solution because they offer more space and carry people more efficiently than individual vehicles. The technology could very easily replace Airplanes atleast as a form of land travel.


I'm not aware of airplanes being used for land travel.  But if that's happening, I can't help but believe that 'most anything would be an improvement.

----------


## juliusaugustus

> Are we trying to say 'mag*l*ev', as in short for *mag*netic *lev*itation?
> 
> *Yes that is what I meant. I get it my typing sucks.*
> 
> Pods aren't trains.  Pods are pods.  Only trains of pods are trains.
> 
> *It uses the same maglev technology for propulsion.*
> 
> I'm not aware of airplanes being used for land travel.  But if that's happening, I can't help but believe that 'most anything would be an improvement.


*Fine I meant continental travel. They don't travel on land but above it.*

----------


## acptulsa

> They don't travel on land but above it.


Same can be said of maglev trains.  It's just a matter of degree.

Do you really believe that three thousand miles of maglev across prairies and through one of the three or four most rugged mountain ranges on the face of the earth is really realistic?  Do you really believe that enjoying the scenery of this great land from a more normal land travel speed isn't worth the investment of time?  Yes, there are routes where high speed rail could prove competitive with air travel, and they would qualify as 'continental'.  But I don't believe that transcontinental travel is one of those routes.

In any case, the more the U.S. government has gotten involved in rail travel the slower it has become.  Travel from New York City takes _twenty-five percent longer_ today than it did in 1937.  This does _not_ bode well for federal participation _ever_ improving U.S. rail service in any way.

----------


## juliusaugustus

> Same can be said of maglev trains.  It's just a matter of degree.
> 
> Do you really believe that three thousand miles of maglev across prairies and through one of the three or four most rugged mountain ranges on the face of the earth is really realistic?  Do you really believe that enjoying the scenery of this great land from a more normal land travel speed isn't worth the investment of time?  Yes, there are routes where high speed rail could prove competitive with air travel, and they would qualify as 'continental'.  But I don't believe that transcontinental travel is one of those routes.


Such a system is perfectly realistic and could be built today if we wanted to maybe building it across the ocean isn't realistic but it certain could be transcontinental. Maglevs are far more adaptive to rugged terrain than is rail with rail the grades and curves that can be built are quite limiting. It probably would be best for the technology to fully develop. Why couldn't it be continental it travels at higher speeds and uses less energy? As for the scenery being worth it you could still see the scenery being as the vacuum tubes are transparent maybe you wouldn't see as much of it. Granted a system might be infrastructure intensive but if designed properly such a system could be durable avoid being maintenance intensive. Short routes wouldn't necessarily be bad though I would try out the technology underground on heavily congested corridor where land acquisition is expensive and difficult Like LA to SD where expanding to add another lane of rail is impossible or where building more lanes of freeway is impossible.

----------


## acptulsa

Magnetic levitation is no boon to climbing grades.  Levitation and traction aren't exactly compatible.  Nothing that levitates uses less energy; nothing that is faster uses less energy.  I don't think you appreciate just how fuel efficient a normal train truly is.

And land acquisition between Los Angeles and San Diego isn't impossible.  But building a tunnel the whole way is.  You'd have to ensure it against earthquakes.  Good luck with that.

Lord save us from unrealistic notions.  Sometimes I think progressives come up with these pipe dreams just so the kids will never, ever be satisfied with the good things we do have in this world.

----------


## juliusaugustus

> Magnetic levitation is no boon to climbing grades.  Levitation and traction aren't exactly compatible.  Nothing that levitates uses less energy; nothing that is faster uses less energy.  I don't think you appreciate just how fuel efficient a normal train truly is.
> 
> *Maglev trains by themselves have no wheel friction or catenary friction and with vacuum tubes air friction can be done away with or reduced. The only thing that ways down maglev is electromagnetic drag.*
> 
> And land acquisition between Los Angeles and San Diego isn't impossible.  But building a tunnel the whole way is.  You'd have to ensure it against earthquakes.  Good luck with that.
> 
> *Subways have been successfully built under Los Angeles and in fact the subways are actually a safe place to be in during an earthquake.*
> 
> Lord save us from unrealistic notions.  Sometimes I think progressives come up with these pipe dreams just so the kids will never, ever be satisfied with the good things we do have in this world.
> *There is nothing progressive about modern progressives they are pretty darn regressive is you ask me. They are part of the establishment and people like Webster Tarpley give people like Roosevelt far too much credit.*


This is why discussions of passenger trains get annoying because the conclusion always seems to be the same "it doesn't work" or "everything is fine the way it is". Here is some comparisons between maglev and traditional rail http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev#...ntional_trains Maglev it is superior in every way. The reason why maglev hasn't taken off is the lack of knowledge and political reasons.

----------


## acptulsa

> Maglev trains by themselves have no wheel friction or catenary friction and with vacuum tubes air friction can be done away with or reduced. the only thing that ways down maglev is electromagnetic drag


The lack of friction comes at a price.  The price is, it takes energy to levitate anything, much less something as heavy as a train.  This creates a tradeoff.  Freight is too heavy for that tradeoff to be worth it.  Passenger trains moving at normal speeds don't have enough friction for that tradeoff to be worth it.  'Electromagnetic drag' doesn't weigh maglev trains down, but in fact overcomes their weight.  That requires energy, and that energy is only worth expending if you get something for it.  That something is a lack of friction, but it's only worth the price if you're moving fast enough to create a whole lot of friction.

Even government defecit spending carries a trade-off--inflation.  What makes you think physics _ever_ lacks tradeoffs?




> Subways have been successfully built under Los Angeles and in fact the subways are actually a safe place to be in during an earthquake.


That, I suppose, depends on the earthquake.



In any case, it doesn't mean anyone can afford to tunnel 124 miles.




> There is nothing progressive about modern progressives they are pretty darn regressive is you ask me. They are part of the establishment and people like Webster Tarpley give people like Roosevelt far too much credit.


No argument from me.  But it doesn't mean that the things they try and fail to sell are worth buying.




> This is why discussions of passenger trains get annoying because the conclusion always seems to be the same "it doesn't work" or "everything is fine the way it is". Here is some comparisons between maglev and traditional rail http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev#...ntional_trains it is superior in every way.


The initial cost is superior?  It's a damned sight higher; does that count as 'superior' in your book?  Are you really arguing that a twelve mile commuter run could possibly get enough speed up to justify magnetic levitation?  Sometimes advances aren't worth the trouble.  Sometimes things really are fine the way they are.  And some advances really haven't worked.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> The initial cost is superior?  It's a damned sight higher; does that count as 'superior' in your book?  Are you really arguing that a twelve mile commuter run could possibly get enough speed up to justify magnetic levitation?  Sometimes advances aren't worth the trouble.  *Sometimes things really are fine the way they are.*  And some advances really haven't worked.


My personal Luddism aside, that is truth right there.

Some things, mankind got right the first time around.

Trying to re-invent the wheel is usually a losing proposition.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> 


Hold on a second...

Where are ten million cops hut hutting around in tanks and automatic weapons, blocking off whole neighborhoods and putting everybody on "lockdown"?

Where is FEMA?

All those people must have died, amirite?

----------


## acptulsa

> Hold on a second...
> 
> Where are ten million cops hut hutting around in tanks and automatic weapons, blocking off whole neighborhoods and putting everybody on "lockdown"?
> 
> Where is FEMA?
> 
> All those people must have died, amirite?


What a difference in Joplin, before and after FEMA arrived.  If the people had known what was in store, they might have met the feds with pitchforks.  In any case, thank God we had a full week to get things done before FEMA got there.

_Ain't that always how it seems to go?
You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone.
They pave Paradise and put up a parking lot._--Joni Mitchell

----------


## juliusaugustus

> The lack of friction comes at a price.  The price is, it takes energy to levitate anything, much less something as heavy as a train.  This creates a tradeoff.  Freight is too heavy for that tradeoff to be worth it.  Passenger trains moving at normal speeds don't have enough friction for that tradeoff to be worth it.  'Electromagnetic drag' doesn't weigh maglev trains down, but in fact overcomes their weight.  That requires energy, and that energy is only worth expending if you get something for it.  That something is a lack of friction, but it's only worth the price if you're moving fast enough to create a whole lot of friction.
> Create friction?
> 
> In terms of energy efficency at high speed Maglev is superior at higher speeds and compared to Air travel energy efficiency is superior. Maglev systems also have less maintenance where as rails and catenary require constant maintenance. For high speed applications Maglev is far superior to both Rail and Air. In theory you could probably carry more weight with than rail.  
> http://www.railway-energy.org/tfee/i...10&EXPANDALL=3
> 
> Well electromagnetic drag does slow down maglev trains http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current 
> 
> That, I suppose, depends on the earthquake.
> ...


I never mentioned anything about cost but the Shanghai transrapid is costed about 18 million dollars per mile which is cheaper than Chinese High speed railways. Building vacuum tube maglevs the Chinese wanted required an extra 3 million per mile compared to HSR. Cost is atleast comparable. For commuter runs you wouldn't run it at high speeds the advantage would be less maintenance. As for things being good as they are well Rail has met its limits in speed and efficiency. I would say that signifies that things are not good as they are.

----------


## acptulsa

> I never mentioned anything about cost but the Shanghai transrapid is costed about 18 million dollars per mile which is cheaper than Chinese High speed railways. Building vacuum tube maglevs the Chinese wanted required an extra 3 million per mile compared to HSR. Cost is atleast comparable. For commuter runs you wouldn't run it at high speeds the advantage would be less maintenance.


No, the advantage of building three thousand miles of vacuum tubes across tornado country would not be less maintenance.

No, costs would not be comparable in the U.S. to what China pays.

No, eighteen million per each of three thousand miles is not affordable.

No, everything they propose isn't fantastical, but suggesting that you can save enough time with maglev over a _three thousand mile_ route to make it competititve with air, and therefore worth the cost and trouble, is fantastical.  Sometimes you just have to take advantage of the fact that an eight hour trip can be made while you sleep, or that a sixteen hour journey can be a great pleasure.  Cruise ships do it.

This conversation would be easier for me if I weren't old enough to remember when 'vacuum tubes' were anything but high tech...

----------


## juliusaugustus

> No, the advantage of building three thousand miles of vacuum tubes across tornado country would not be less maintenance.
> *Just that Maglev itself lacking wheel and catenary friction requires less maintenance. In terms of building across the country maintenance can be reduced with well designed systems and maintenance would certainly be less than our interstates have today with their 16 lanes of road.*
> 
> No, costs would not be comparable in the U.S. to what China pays.
> 
> *You missed the point entirely in China it costed less to build a mile of Maglev then HSR in China not that costs would be comparable to China.*
> 
> No, eighteen million per each of three thousand miles is not affordable.
> 
> ...


Further showing your ignorance Vacuum tubes simply refer to tunnels which remove air. Airless tunnels is a better term

----------


## acptulsa

> Further showing your ignorance Vacuum tubes simply refer to tunnels which remove air. Airless tunnels is a better term


You are trying to tell me that I-70 across Kansas is sixteen lanes wide, you cannot grasp that there is more to the question of cost effectiveness than comparing the cost of high speed trains in tubes to the cost of high speed trains outside of tubes, you don't grasp that we can't afford fifty billion bucks for a new transcontinental railroad that would merely reduce the travel time from three days to a day and a half, you think 'costed' is a word in the English language, and you dare call me ignorant specifically because I know more than one definition of 'vacuum tube'.

If you're this determined to shoot yourself in the foot, stop $#@!ing around and borrow my gun already.

----------


## juliusaugustus

> You are trying to tell me that I-70 across Kansas is sixteen lanes wide, you cannot grasp that there is more to the question of cost effectiveness than comparing the cost of high speed trains in tubes to the cost of high speed trains outside of tubes, you don't grasp that we can't afford fifty billion bucks for a new transcontinental railroad that would merely reduce the travel time from three days to a day and a half, you think 'costed' is a word in the English language, and you dare call me ignorant specifically because I know more than one definition of 'vacuum tube'.
> 
> If you're this determined to shoot yourself in the foot, stop $#@!ing around and borrow my gun already.


I was simply implying that a Vacuum tube maglev would have less maintenance than a multi-lane elevated Highway not every freeway has that many lanes but some US highways are pretty darn large and a maglev system would take up less space. The original cost effectiveness was simply comparing rail to maglev and maglev was superior in cost. The other comparison added the cost of tunnels and if you did the same thing and put rail in tunnels costs would be comparable. Obviously tunnels are going to add cost.

----------


## acptulsa

> I was simply implying that a Vacuum tube maglev would have less maintenance than a multi-lane elevated Highway not every freeway has that many lanes but some US highways are pretty darn large and a maglev system would take up less space. The original cost effectiveness was simply comparing rail to maglev and maglev was superior in cost. The other comparison added the cost of tunnels and if you did the same thing and put rail in tunnels costs would be comparable. Obviously tunnels are going to add cost.


You act like the whole country is LA or inner city Chicago or Manhattan Island.  People whose heads are that stuck in silly paradigms should be careful who they accuse of ignorance.  What makes you think that more than a very few of the thousand miles of I-35 are elevated?  Do you really think the economics for that highway are the same halfway between Kansas City and Wichita as they are in downtown Austin?

Saying that maglev trains are cheaper in or out of tubes is like saying that you've reduced the projected increase of the debt.  It makes fine propaganda but it doesn't actually mean a God damned thing.  And none of it changes the fact that if we were rid of Amtrak and the FRA, we could have privately run passenger trains in this nation that would put anything we've seen in the last forty years to shame.  Whether they do over two hundred miles an hour right away or not (and they wouldn't, but I don't mind).

Your fifty billion dollar price tag won't get us anything that will compete with aircraft for speed, and therefore won't be spent by anyone who is sane (which is to say anyone outside of government).  And since Obama talked a bunch of high speed rail but hasn't done jack about it (not even in the only place he could, the Northeast where Amtrak actually owns its own rail), I think it's about as irrelevant as Dick White's silly-assed Monday morning quarterbacking.  But, hey.  Thanks for sort of stimulating the conversation.

----------


## juliusaugustus

> You act like the whole country is LA or inner city Chicago or Manhattan Island.  People whose heads are that stuck in silly paradigms should be careful who they accuse of ignorance.  What makes you think that more than a very few of the thousand miles of I-35 are elevated?  Do you really think the economics for that highway are the same halfway between Kansas City and Wichita as they are in downtown Austin?
> 
> Of course not just that much of the US has really large freeways and of course upfront cost would be more but maintenance is possibly less. California has large elevated freeways.
> 
> Saying that maglev trains are cheaper in or out of tubes is like saying that you've reduced the projected increase of the debt.  It makes fine propaganda but it doesn't actually mean a God damned thing.  And none of it changes the fact that if we were rid of Amtrak and the FRA, we could have privately run passenger trains in this nation that would put anything we've seen in the last forty years to shame.  Whether they do over two hundred miles an hour right away or not (and they wouldn't, but I don't mind).
> I was simply saying that the cost of Maglev is cheaper or comparable to rail and if you were to put rail in tubes as well you would probably finds costs to be comparable to putting maglev in tubes. You completely misinterpret everything I say.
> 
> Your fifty billion dollar price tag won't get us anything that will compete with aircraft for speed, and therefore won't be spent by anyone who is sane (which is to say anyone outside of government).  And since Obama talked a bunch of high speed rail but hasn't done jack about it (not even in the only place he could, the Northeast where Amtrak actually owns its own rail), I think it's about as irrelevant as Dick White's silly-assed Monday morning quarterbacking.  But, hey.  Thanks for sort of stimulating the conversation.


I never mentioned any specific price and you act like money is actually important the US creates fictitious money on computers or on green pieces of paper all the time. We have the ability to buy real things with what is really just digits on computer. Unless the petrodollar ends the US will never go bankrupt so all this talk of balancing the budget or reducing the debt is pointless. Reducing the debt reduces the money supply and would be a bad thing to do. How is maglev not able to compete with aircraft it can travel at speeds higher than airplanes and use other forms of energy it also offers more space and comfort? As for this magical private sector there is a maglev in the works in Orlando http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/p....html?page=all
The cost is around 20 million per mile in this case.

----------


## acptulsa

Gee, the internet has become interplanetary.

Learn something every day.

----------


## juliusaugustus

> Gee, the internet has become interplanetary.
> 
> Learn something every day.


interplanetary?

----------


## Anti Federalist

Oh boy, I'll probably regret this...

Hey guys, go to your corners.

I'd hate to see this thread get closed or moved to HT because of the infighting.

It's a railroad *discussion*, OK?

----------


## Origanalist

> I never mentioned any specific price and you act like money is actually important the US creates fictitious money on computers or on green pieces of paper all the time. We have the ability to buy real things with what is really just digits on computer. *Unless the petrodollar ends the US will never go bankrupt* so all this talk of balancing the budget or reducing the debt is pointless. Reducing the debt reduces the money supply and would be a bad thing to do. How is maglev not able to compete with aircraft it can travel at speeds higher than airplanes and use other forms of energy it also offers more space and comfort? As for this magical private sector there is a maglev in the works in Orlando http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/p....html?page=all
> The cost is around 20 million per mile in this case.


Do you realy think it wont? Every country on the planet but US is suffering under it.

----------


## juliusaugustus

What's so evil about maglevs?

----------


## acptulsa

> Oh boy, I'll probably regret this...


What?

I thought I expressed my opinion of 'if we open enough Cracker Jack boxes we'll have enough money to build three thousand miles of five hundred mile per hour trains in a tube' pretty well.  I have nothing to add.  I've expressed my opinion of modern education before.

Why do you ask?




> What's so evil about maglevs?


It can't raise an economy from the dead?  It can't elevate a three hundred mph train to five hundred mph?  It can neither levitate the spirit of a dying nation, nor a pitiful IQ to serviceability?

In short, there's nothing evil about magnetic levitation at all.  I wish I shared your conviction that we could get it off the ground.  But I am happy that I have the belief that we could get rail service out of government hands without going to such great lengths or expense.  You see, I'd still rather have private enterprise rail service of quality than encourage the government to destroy the dollar specifically for the purpose of building floating trains in bank drive-thru pneumatic tubes.  Because no matter how nifty, fast and wazoo it became, it would still be Amtrak, and it would still suck.

----------


## juliusaugustus

> What?
> 
> I thought I expressed my opinion of 'if we open enough Cracker Jack boxes we'll have enough money to build three thousand miles of five hundred mile per hour trains in a tube' pretty well.  I have nothing to add.  I've expressed my opinion of modern education before.
> 
> Why do you ask?
> 
> 
> 
> It can't raise an economy from the dead?  It can't elevate a three hundred mph train to five hundred mph?  It can neither levitate the spirit of a dying nation, nor a pitiful IQ to serviceability?
> ...


I never once implied government involvement at all in theory if the government completely got out of the transportation business someone might build systems like this I was simply referring to how the government will never go bankrupt because it won't. Once the technology is developed someone might create it.

----------


## juliusaugustus



----------


## juliusaugustus

From the Land of the Dragon. Where both the past and future coexist
Some Steam locomotives still exist though they are fast dissappearing due to government edict.


HXN3 based upon the US SD90MAC


High speed rail

----------


## acptulsa

> I never once implied government involvement at all in theory if the government completely got out of the transportation business someone might build systems like this I was simply referring to how the government will never go bankrupt because it won't. Once the technology is developed someone might create it.


Who else can convince the Fed to print enough funny money to pull it off?

And when has government _ever_ come up with something as good as what we could create ourselves?  Generally they just take over what we created and ruin it...

That's kind of the whole point of my thread...

----------


## juliusaugustus

> Who else can convince the Fed to print enough funny money to pull it off?
> 
> And when has government _ever_ come up with something as good as what we could create ourselves?  Generally they just take over what we created and ruin it...
> 
> That's kind of the whole point of my thread...


But Maglev technology costs less then a comparable HSR system and it is purely political reasons that Maglev isn't being used in the US. In a free market Maglev would do quite well. Maglev has fewer regulations but there are still government created barriers to entry like approval processes. Despite this however the private sector is being a maglev system in Orlando. The technology will only get better going forward where as rail has pretty much met its limits in terms of technological improvements. As for the government and business generally the government isn't as good as private enterprise but it isn't inherently horrible either the government owned SNCF and China Railways are well run entities. The post office used to be well run until they had tough regulations imposed on them. I always view that water companies should be run by the government or at the very least be run as some sort of communal resource because unlike electrical or gas companies which really aren't natural monopolies water companies are due to their capital intensive nature and the small supplies of available water sources.

----------


## acptulsa

> But Maglev technology costs less then a comparable HSR system...


You're talking about whether a Wang is better than a Cray, while the U.S. government has retarded us to the point where it takes twenty-five percent longer to get from New York to Chicago than it did in _1937_.

An Apple III would look miraculous to us right now.

Let's concentrate on getting passenger rail back into private hands.  Then maybe, just maybe, we can start moving forward again.  And as for SCNF and China Railways, well, China isn't still using steam for the nostalgia benefit.  Hell, those Mikados aren't even particularly good steam locomotives.  And yet, China Railways does look right up-to-date and passenger-oriented compared to Amtrak...

And railroads aren't water pipes.  We may be down to four Class One roads, but those four (or at least the two western ones and the two eastern ones) do compete with each other.  All Amtrak competes with is trucking company lobbyists and airline lobbyists--and it loses.

We tried government.  It failed.  As it usually does.  Does France's government also fail?  Maybe not.  Maybe we should leave it up to the states.  After all, France is more the size of a state, and states, like France, would have to compete with other nearby states.  But I don't think so; I think the UP has proven with its excursions that they know how to make travel fun again.  But whatever.  The main thing is, get Washington out of it.  The ICC and John Erlichman demanded their chance, they've had it, they failed.  They have to go.

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

The private railroads had it right, an evening departure from New York and a morning arrival in Chicago. Perfect for the business man. No need to wake up at 4 am to go through security theater at the airport.

----------


## acptulsa

> The private railroads had it right, an evening departure from New York and a morning arrival in Chicago. Perfect for the business man. No need to wake up at 4 am to go through security theater at the airport.


Cruise lines prove every day that it isn't necessarily the speed of travel that is always the deciding factor, but the quality of travel can factor into it.  But, of course, cruise lines operate in international waters.  So, until the UN figures out a way to spoil everything...

----------


## juliusaugustus

> You're talking about whether a Wang is better than a Cray, while the U.S. government has retarded us to the point where it takes twenty-five percent longer to get from New York to Chicago than it did in _1937_.
> 
> An Apple III would look miraculous to us right now.
> 
> Let's concentrate on getting passenger rail back into private hands.  Then maybe, just maybe, we can start moving forward again.  And as for SCNF and China Railways, well, China isn't still using steam for the nostalgia benefit.  Hell, those Mikados aren't even particularly good steam locomotives.  And yet, China Railways does look right up-to-date and passenger-oriented compared to Amtrak...
> 
> *Of course China has large coal reserves and there is now discussion on switching back to steam. I figured out what could be done about Amtrak they are technically a private corporation sue them for anti-trust for being a monopoly and get the judges to sell them to parent railroads, I doubt the government would rule against Amtrak but it is a place to start. Standard oil had 60% market share Amtrak has nearly 100%*
> 
> And railroads aren't water pipes.  We may be down to four Class One roads, but those four (or at least the two western ones and the two eastern ones) do compete with each other.  All Amtrak competes with is trucking company lobbyists and airline lobbyists--and it loses.
> ...


I completely agree private enterprise is a better. The CORPORATION OF UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ie Washington DC shouldn't meddle with people's affairs as much.

----------


## acptulsa

> I just brought up the water company example because the government is not inherently horrible at everything at it does which some people try to paint it as.


Firstly, I am not one of those who feels that every government is as corrupt as Washington (though I'm the first to admit that they all have the potential to be).  Secondly, I wish you'd be careful.  You're in serious danger of turning my thread into a debate about fluoride...

----------


## juliusaugustus

Rohr Aerotrain the The transport that never was
http://www.shonner.com/aerotrain/index.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aérotrain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4Knh0H-rvk

----------


## acptulsa

Bait and switch.




> http://connect.freedomworks.org/news...urce%3Dtwitter


Eight hundred eighty million and we still have fifty year old TALGO technology between Seattle and Portland, and it's still limited to 79 mph--not eighty, mind you, but seventy-nine, which just happens to be the federally mandated speed limit for any U.S. train that does not have Automatic Train Stop.  So, forty-two years after the federal government forced the Santa Fe and others out of the passenger rail business, we're down from the Santa Fe's oft-exceeded nominal speed limit of ninety to 79.

And our best hope for world-class twenty-first century trains?  Federal aid to California at everyone's expense, even though California is one of the richest states in the nation and doesn't need our help, and even though the engineering challenges of bringing the Southern Pacific's old coast route, with its ridges and its mountains, up to the standard that would be required for barely more than two-thirds Europe's TGV speeds are still a long, long way from being overcome.

We need to get Washington, D.C. out of it completely.  Then we might make a little progress.




> Rohr Aerotrain the The transport that never was
> http://www.shonner.com/aerotrain/index.htm


Oh, yes, I remember the craze.  Tulsa was among the cities playing with the idea.

----------


## juliusaugustus

> Oh, yes, I remember the craze.  Tulsa was among the cities playing with the idea.


It is nothing like a monorail it doesn't use wheels or rail. It uses air cushions to suspend a vehicle on concrete guideways. What did in the technology was the fact that the government feels the need to monopolize scientific research. Had the technology been fully developed it could have been created a technology at a cost less than either maglev or rail.

----------


## juliusaugustus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8skXT5NQzCg
The technology at its limits.

----------


## juliusaugustus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Tramways
You can travel throughout much of Hong Kong for just .3 USD. the system is privately owned. Had the government not intervened and let railway technology develop we might have electric railway systems that could be used for 90 cents to 1.50 dollars with technological improvements fares might be as low as 50 cents. They would make money on these low fares where as today system looses money on 2.50 dollar fares.

----------


## acptulsa

> It is nothing like a monorail it doesn't use wheels or rail.


Maglev doesn't use wheels, but still uses 'rail' (though it is unconventional) and is still considered a 'railroad'.  Devices for supporting and steering trains are 'rails', whether they're narrow a hundred and something pounds to the yard, I-shaped chunks of steel or not.  And that widget clearly uses only one, thus the 'mono' part.  So, if it's 'mono' and it's 'rail', how is all the sophomoric sophistry in the world going to prevent it from being a 'monorail'?

An air hockey table is still considered a table, and air hockey is still considered to be played on that table, whether the puck actually touches the table or not.

----------


## Anti Federalist

My grandfather was a survivor of the crash of the Jersey "Broker", in 1951, in Woodbridge NJ.

A family member, who keeps up with such things, found a handwritten poem by him and sent it along to me today.






*The Jersey Broker*

We're ready to leave J.C I sum,
Cars noted and counted and checked for our run,
Thus spoke Mr Bishop to Fizsimmons and Dunn.

Cold gray I've with the day to rest
Began this journey in peacefulness
Of the Jersey Broker, the Hot Rod Express

With a hissing of steam, slow clicking and wheeze
With a few scattered passengers riding with ease.
She left Jersey City as nice as you please

A stop at Newark, a Jamming crowd,
The Central's not running we'll double the allowed
She's filled to the doors some silent some loud.

Ease out of Newark with a hardly a jerk,
Puffing and straining to moves takes work,
We'll soon gain speed and bore thru the murk.

Puh chug, Ka Chu, a click, a clack
We're slowly moving down the track,
Smoke and ciders pour from the stack.

We pick up speed and move along,
Wheels on plates click out a song,
Droning engine, eleven cars strong.

We slow at Rahway, curve out of line,
Follow the shore branch, main tracks behind,
Then pick up speed with schedule in mind.

A mile a minute our routine speed;
But, remember Joe the warning heed,
Slow at Woodbridge, that's our need!

"OK AL," check me clear,
"When yellow lights gleam let me hear,
I'll know then the turnouts near."

Keep her moving, pile on coal,
The schedule short, let her roll,
Down the straight stretch thru the hole.

Let her out Joe! Give her a head!
We've got a clear board, nothing to dread.
Pick up a minute on the straight road bed.

What's that Joe, Woodbridge in sight?
Ease off the Johnson bar ride her light!
Keep your eye peeled for the yellow light!

Five seconds pass and here's the turn.
God, Joe! We've speed to burn,
We'll never make the Woodbridge turn.

Rolling, weaving, bumping, crash!
Screeching brakes, and thundering smash!
An eleven car special Broker's hash!

Car one slid on the tender ahead.
Car two on side a sight to dread.
Car three a tomb with nearly all dead.

Car four on embankment above number three.
Car five a crescent like bended knee.
Car six thru the trestle, a ship sunk at sea.

Car one is silent except for the role
of the hissing steam and rattling coal,
Clattering glass in piece and whole.

Car two a ominous silence: but hear
a desperate moan or groan  is clear
To appraise of broken humanity near.

Car three, four, five in kneeling swell
of souls near heaven in man made hell;
Not long for life those therein dwell.

There is in casualty all such stuff
of queries and questions, that’s enough!
Action's required not words and guff.

"Hey Joe!" says Al from heaven this night,
"Look there Joe---- your yellow light"
Too bad! Last  night no similar sight.

All you survivors who shudder and week
When the trains lurch and you're tossed in the seat,
Take heed; count your blessings;salve your hurt.

Thank God!
You again ride the Broker
Not six feet of Earth.

February 14, 1951
xxxxxxx x xxxxxxx

Survivor Penn RR wreck at Woodbridge
Tuesday 6:05pm Feb 6th 1951

xx xxxxxxx Rd
Belmar, NJ

----------


## Anti Federalist

Kind of a testamant to the safety of rail travel, seeing as how the accident that my grandfather survived was the THIRD worst in US history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodbridge_train_wreck

----------


## Anti Federalist

The worst.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gre..._Wreck_of_1918

The second worst.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbone_Street_Wreck

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

Interesting stuff AF, especially regarding your grandfather.

The two worst accident were 95 years ago. I guess that's why I prefer to keep my two legs on the ground.

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

1,100 people on board, and the death toll is 85. 87% survival rate for the third worst rail accident in US history.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Interesting stuff AF, especially regarding your grandfather.
> 
> The two worst accident were 95 years ago. I guess that's why I prefer to keep my two legs on the ground.


Well, wiki is coming up weak on this, as there were others, but it seems the numbers of killed are in question or unreliable.

I think the worst modern day one was the Anthrax crash down along the gulf coast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Bi...ot_train_wreck

----------


## Anti Federalist

Where has acptulsa been?

----------


## pathtofreedom

The Milwaukee Road is a favorite of mine and it was electrified.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago...cific_Railroad
http://milwaukeeroadarchives.com/Ele...ationPage1.htm
The main barrier to electrification is property taxes and regulations.

----------


## pathtofreedom

Also the ICC was created by the Railroads themselves in an effort to kill off competition to monopolize the industry. For example the ICC would ban secret price cutting something that might destroy price fixing agreements. I think Murray Rothbard talks about somewhere about the ICC and how the railroads created it. I know Morgan lobbied for it heavily.
Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGX3_XnC8n0
Rothbard describes in the first 10-12 minutes how the ICC was created to preserve monopolies. Secret price cutting was banned in order to preserve cartel agreements.

----------


## acptulsa

> Also the ICC was created by the Railroads themselves in an effort to kill off competition to monopolize the industry. For example the ICC would ban secret price cutting something that might destroy price fixing agreements. I think Murray Rothbard talks about somewhere about the ICC and how the railroads created it. I know Morgan lobbied for it heavily.
> Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGX3_XnC8n0
> Rothbard describes in the first 10-12 minutes how the ICC was created to preserve monopolies. Secret price cutting was banned in order to preserve cartel agreements.


Well, if there was any doubt you're the Caesar brothers, I think you settled it.

Yes, Morgan favored the ICC as he was not fond of the price wars.  You see, the railroads weren't a monopoly in those days, and didn't all act in unison according to their common best interests; one road's president would go maverick where he perceived an advantage in doing so.  Yes Morgan lobbied for the ICC.  Morgan was not a railroader.  Gould and Harriman, Vanderbilt Hill and Strong were railroaders.  Morgan was a banker and a speculator who wanted the others and their many and varied ilk under government's thumb because it removed some of the variables that were interfering with Morgan's speculation.

What next?  Bring it on.

----------


## pathtofreedom

> Well, if there was any doubt you're the Caesar brothers, I think you settled it.
> *CAESAR Brothers?*
> 
> Yes, Morgan favored the ICC as he was not fond of the price wars.  You see, the railroads weren't a monopoly in those days, and didn't all act in unison according to their common best interests; one road's president would go maverick where he perceived an advantage in doing so.  Yes Morgan lobbied for the ICC.  Morgan was not a railroader.  Gould and Harriman, Vanderbilt Hill and Strong were railroaders.  Morgan was a banker and a speculator who wanted the others and their many and varied ilk under government's thumb because it removed some of the variables that were interfering with Morgan's speculation.
> 
> What next?  Bring it on.


I think Morgan was a railroader he was on the board of several railroad companies and he owned several railroads and financed these enterprises. Morgan also financed several other industries such as General Motors, General Electric, and US Steel.
A list of Morganized Railroads
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._P._Morgan#Railroads
Regulations are a scourge and should be eliminated. The tibits on airline regulation were interesting as well. Granting monopoly rights over routes that is insane.
edit: Also you implied that the ICC was necessary to stop Kamikazi Capitalism or something like that nonsense. Competition is a very good thing. Even if Railroads had a general monopoly over transport they would still have competed with each other if not for government. Railroads didn't necessarily have a monopoly technological improvement to Water travel such as steam engines enabled a degree of competition. Competition is only good when it comes about naturally.

----------


## pathtofreedom

From the land of Hayek and Mises ÖBB or Austrian Federal Railways or ÖBB
If I am not mistaken one of Mises's relatives worked for ÖBB.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_Federal_Railways
http://www.oebb.at/en/
http://www.austria.info/uk/how-to-ge...l-1134835.html

----------


## acptulsa

> I think Morgan was a railroader he was on the board of several railroad companies and he owned several railroads and financed these enterprises.


I don't.  Any more than he was a steelmaker or a carmaker.  Just because a doctor got a loan from your bank doesn't mean you'd let your banker take out your appendix.  Unless, of course, you have less sense than I think you have.




> edit: Also you implied that the ICC was necessary to stop Kamikazi Capitalism or something like that nonsense.


Just because I indicate what J.P. Morgan's opinion was does _not_ mean I agree with the bastard.  I've seen this rhetorical tactic out of you before.  No one is impressed.

----------


## pathtofreedom

> I don't.  Any more than he was a steelmaker or a carmaker.  Just because a doctor got a loan from your bank doesn't mean you'd let your banker take out your appendix.  Unless, of course, you have less sense than I think you have.


So owning several railroads and being on the board of a railroad company doesn't make one a railroader?

----------


## ronpaulfollower999

The Zephyrs, America's first real high speed train:




From Wikipedia on the Twin Cities Zephyr:




> The Twin Cities Zephyrs for many years ran the highest average speeds in the United States between Chicago and Minneapolis-St. Paul, eased by the gradual grades along the Mississippi River. The trains ran a six-hour schedule over 427 miles (687 km), for *an overall average of 71 miles per hour (114 km/h)as fast as today's Acela Express*. It is believed that for several years a stretch in the middle of the route centered at Prairie du Chien, Wisconsin had the highest scheduled speeds in the world, requiring an average of 84.4 mph (135.8 km/h) from Prairie du Chien north to La Crosse,[1] and the stretch from Prairie du Chien south to East Dubuque, Illinois required an average of 84 mph (135 km/h).[6]


No FRA, no silly government regulations, and the trains ran fast. The ICC steps in 1947 limiting train speeds to 79 mph, and it takes some 50 years and billions of dollars for us to match the average speed of the Zephyrs. Gotta love how progressive the progressives are.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Love it...thanks for posting.

Somewhere in this thread it was posted that the speed of the Broadway Limited in 1934 under steam power was a half hour *faster* than Anthrax can do it today.

SMFH...





> The Zephyrs, America's first real high speed train:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From Wikipedia on the Twin Cities Zephyr:
> 
> 
> 
> No FRA, no silly government regulations, and the trains ran fast. The ICC steps in 1947 limiting train speeds to 79 mph, and it takes some 50 years and billions of dollars for us to match the average speed of the Zephyrs. Gotta love how progressive the progressives are.

----------


## acptulsa

> Love it...thanks for posting.
> 
> Somewhere in this thread it was posted that the speed of the Broadway Limited in 1934 under steam power was a half hour *faster* than Anthrax can do it today.
> 
> SMFH...


Four hours.  It takes 25% longer today than seventy-five years ago.




> So owning several railroads and being on the board of a railroad company doesn't make one a railroader?


No.  It doesn't make you anything but a clown in a suit.  Living on the railroad for months at a time, investigating how every operation is done on every division and making improvements to efficiency, like Jay Gould did, makes you a railroader.  He has a reputation as a manipulator who could only run railroads into the ground, but it was not deserved.

Sitting in a board meeting makes you a fat bastard in a vest.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Four hours.  It takes 25% longer today than seventy-five years ago.


Four *HOURS*?

Yes, I recall that post now.

SMFH.

----------


## pathtofreedom

> Sitting in a board meeting makes you a fat bastard in a vest.


LOLS

----------


## pathtofreedom

Freight Train hopping is becoming a more popular past time due to the fact that banks and the government have crashed the economy people are now hopping on freight trains in greater numbers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTUd6Ctzg-c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jwn7zgZ0IOc
http://www.adventure-journal.com/2013/04/declination-modern-day-train-hopping
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3231522.html
The MTV Special From Years Ago "The Travelers"
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ykaHiGasrzAPXf
Granted such activity is illegal and very dangerous but it still beats Amtrak's outrageous prices ranging anywhere from 18 cents per mile to 1.30 dollar per mile. Railroads used to not care as much about train hopper but due to the ever increasing size of the police state railroads are less willing allow such activities. Despite this however it still remains a popular way to travel.

----------


## pathtofreedom

The FRA proposes changes to crashworthiness standards.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...h-speed-trains
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=542
http://www.rtands.com/index.php/trac...ml?channel=286
Not quite a pure form of deregulation but it will allow the usage of international equipment. The question remains why have any standards at all? Atleast now you won't be forced to use obese equipment based on 100 year old designs. If implemented existing manufacturers would loose their monopoly.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Random Train Porn.

Boston and Maine Engine #3639, East Lexington, MA, April 1953.

----------


## acptulsa

> Boston and Maine Engine #3639, East Lexington, MA, April 1953.


Funny most of the Pacific types worked closer to the Atlantic.

She's was a beauty.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Funny most of the Pacific types worked closer to the Atlantic.
> 
> She's was a beauty.


I know, go figure, right?

The B and M as well as Bangor and Aroostook loved 'em.

New York Central used a whole ton of 'em too.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Let me come into millions of FRNs some day.

Imma build a brand new one.

----------


## acptulsa

> New York Central used a whole ton of 'em too.


Almost every railroad used a bunch of them, unless it didn't have any passenger business at all.  They were excellent for the purpose.  But, at the risk of being picky, the NYC probably used the least Pacifics of any railroad it's size.  After all, they were the first to stick an extra axle on the trailing truck and call them 'Hudsons'.



Which isn't to say they didn't have lots and lots of Pacifics, both on their own lines and on the Boston and Albany.  They did.



But they certainly weren't as famous for the type as their rivals were.








> Imma build a brand new one.


Me too.  One of those Peppercorns you posted pages ago in this thread could easily be made to look American.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Me too.  One of those Peppercorns you posted pages ago in this thread could easily be made to look American.


If I were to do it, I think I'd see about hiring the whole shop at Strasburg PA to build it.

They claim to have the skills and tools to do it, outside of the boiler fabrication.

All the prints and drawings are still available.

----------


## acptulsa

> If I were to do it, I think I'd see about hiring the whole shop at Strasburg PA to build it.
> 
> They claim to have the skills and tools to do it, outside of the boiler fabrication.
> 
> All the prints and drawings are still available.


I've long thought the perfect setup would be to approximate the efficiency of 'superpower' steam from the 'thirties on a smaller scale.  These were the most efficient steamers by far, but the problem with them was they were all huge.  Not the best choice for light passenger duty in the modern day.  But, of course, new steamers always tended to be bigger than what came before, for the simple and logical reason that the railroads already had smaller steamers.

One exception was the Atlantics of the Milwaukee Road.



I don't personally think they were very pretty, but that streamlining was only skin deep, so that could be cured.  Back before World War I, the Santa Fe (and probably others) had Atlantics and Pacifics that were extremely similar except for the number of driven axles and the size of the drive wheels.  Reducing the size of the Milwaukee Class A's drivers from seven feet to six would still leave them capable of well over 90.  And it would allow for an extra drive axle, which would lighten up their axle loadings, and would increase their traction.  Those engines had fine 300 psi boilers and plenty of superheater.  I think that would make one hell of a nice moderate-sized Pacific.

----------


## pathtofreedom

I you want a new steam locomotive China is the place to go.

----------


## acptulsa

> I you want a new steam locomotive China is the place to go.


I thought they stopped building them.

Wouldn't go there in any case.  Compared to the new Peppercorns available from England Chinese steam is beyond dated.  At least the English engine measures up to the best from late in the steam age.  The Chinese stuff best compares to hundred year old engines.

----------


## pathtofreedom

> I thought they stopped building them.
> 
> Wouldn't go there in any case.  Compared to the new Peppercorns available from England Chinese steam is beyond dated.  At least the English engine measures up to the best from late in the steam age.  The Chinese stuff best compares to hundred year old engines.


They do indeed still make Steam locomotives in China
http://www.multipowerinternational.com/index.html
They also sell used steam locomotives. I hear somewhere the government is planning to lift the ban on steam locomotives and allow them on the mainline again as the facilities still exist.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

Hey, I was talking earlier in this thread about routing 'bit' trains like network packets.  This might actually be a good idea if it's handled by the private market...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92dK_yxaKvk

But ONLY if it's handled by the private free market.

----------


## eduardo89

evacuated tube maglev sounds amazing. I remember reading about a proposal with top speeds of 3,000mph!

----------


## GunnyFreedom

They guy selling it in the video strikes me as a biggov green policer tho.  Just sayin'

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> evacuated tube maglev sounds amazing. I remember reading about a proposal with top speeds of 3,000mph!



Yeah, Raleigh to Los Angeles in 40 minutes for under $100 sounds like something I would actually take advantage of.

----------


## Pericles

> Yeah, Raleigh to Los Angeles in 40 minutes for under $100 sounds like something I would actually take advantage of.


Why would one go to Los Angeles?

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Why would one go to Los Angeles?


To gawk at the freaks on exhibit.  

Or to take a job paying at ridiculous cost of living, while actually living in rational cost of living.

Other than that?  No idea really.

----------


## eduardo89

> To gawk at the freaks on exhibit.  
> 
> Or to take a job paying at ridiculous cost of living, while actually living in rational cost of living.
> 
> Other than that?  No idea really.


Yeah but a $200/day round trip commute would really cut into any increase in salary very quickly.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Yeah but a $200/day round trip commute would really cut into any increase in salary very quickly.


I would imagine it's like any commuter, that if you travel daily the cost would be significantly less, through a program that would probably be called a "Tube Pass."

Or...probably a different name.  That sounds disturbingly like a surgical procedure.

----------


## HOLLYWOOD

> The fact that Anthrax--er, I mean Amtrak (I love railrans ) has squeezed private enterprise into little pockets means that the attitude toward trains in this country is one of it's the journey, not the destination.  Well, you can get to some destinations on Gubbermint Rail, but it's an either/or.  Either the journey is wonderful or the destination is reached.  Hardly something to make the airlines tremble.  But there was a day when American rail travel was about both.  Back when rail travel was still popular enough that ICC regulations could not yet completely strangle free enterprise, and Amtrak was not yet a gleam in John Erlichman's beady eyes.


AND THEN... there's jerkoffs like "CHECKPOINT CHARLIE SCHUMER"   'NO RIDE LIST' FOR TRAINS, wants to add BILLIONS in debt for police to "Secure Rail" anyone can see this elitist group's goal is creating the 1984 security/oppression state.

----------


## pathtofreedom

Las Vegas Railway express will be offering service to Vegas and they will offer this service nationwide.
http://www.marketwire.com/press-rele...RN-1813330.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2ScB...n8JjPPg4XBDFjQ
Not to be confused with xpresswest which failed due to lack of government funding this uses no such funding. I think I will use it to go to vegas for CES.

----------


## pathtofreedom

http://www.engadget.com/2013/08/12/elon-musk-hyperloop/
http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/def...loop-alpha.pdf
It seems better than those non high speed rail proposals. Hopefully I live to see it exist.

----------


## pathtofreedom

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7buTCULLeY
Seems like an awesome sport.

----------


## Anti Federalist

*New England Steam Corp.*

http://www.newenglandsteam.org/home

Just started, a new project to return standard gauge steam power to Maine.

The plan is to restore MEC 470, which has been on static display in Waterville for 60 years, to active service.



Maine Central 4-6-2 "Pacific"-type locomotive #470 was built in May of 1924 by the American Locomotive Company in Schenectady, NY as serial #65555 and at a cost of $62,296.90. She pulled passenger trains for thirty years, including name trains The Gull, The Bar Harbor Express, and the Kennebec Limited between Boston, MA and Bangor, ME.  On June 13, 1954, #470 was the last steam locomotive operated by Maine Central Railroad, making a publicized run from Portland to Bangor, ME and back.  After the historic journey, #470 was brought to the Maine Central's Waterville, ME shop, where it was weatherized.  On June 17, 1954, it was pulled onto its first plinth in front of the Waterville station, ending the age of American steam in Maine.

On October 28, 1962, during the 100th Anniversary of the Maine Central Railroad celebration, #470 was officially presented to the city of Waterville.  A few days later, #470 was removed from its display and returned to the Waterville yard due to construction of the College Avenue underpass.  On December 14, 1970, #470 was moved to its current position and re-dedicated on August 14, 1971.  Most of the current damage to #470 is a result of Maine's extreme climate, vandalism, and asbestos abatement efforts.

In cooperation with the City of Waterville, New England Steam Corporation's goal is to turn back time, bring #470 back to how it appeared in its service years, and restore the locomotive to operating status once more. The economic and educational merits of a returning live steam to "Vacationland" will provide much benefit for the newer generations that have never experienced the "Iron Horse," as well as bring back fond memories for those who remember and miss an important era in both American and Maine's history.

----------


## acptulsa

Thanks for the good news.  And welcome home.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Thanks for the good news.  And welcome home.


You're welcome, and thank you.

----------


## acptulsa

'What does the experience of the railroads tell us about the American way of competition and regulation?  Obviously it suggests that the usual time lag between policy and reality has grown steadily worse over the years.  Regulatory policy, like old generals, seems doomed always to fight the last war, partly because in our system it takes so long to recognize new problems and then to build a concensus for change.  At bottom regulation involves a quest for some viable equation reconciling economic efficiency, social justice, and political acceptability.  The more complex regulatory mechanisms become, the more difficult it is to adjust them or get rid of them when necessary, let alone tie them to these objectives.

'Since the pace of change wrought by new technology continues to gain speed, the gap between policy and reality widens daily despite all efforts to close it.  In the modern world policy cannot possibly keep pace with change of all kinds.'--_Maury Klein_

----------


## Anti Federalist

Couple more pics of the Maine Central 470 on static display in Waterville:





She's rough on the surface, but is in relatively good shape mechanically and all the pieces are there.

This should be an easy restoration, if the funds can be raised.

----------


## acptulsa

> Couple more pics of the Maine Central 470 on static display in Waterville:
> 
> She's rough on the surface, but is in relatively good shape mechanically and all the pieces are there.
> 
> This should be an easy restoration, if the funds can be raised.


She's an awfully conservative design for '24, with less than 200 psi in her boiler and less than 650 square feet of superheater.  But at 261,000 pounds and a max axle loading at about 60,000, she's actually a great candidate for restoration--and all the more so for 73" drivers that make her fast (but not too fast) yet give her good pulling ability.

I sure hope we get to hear the bark of her stack again echoing in the frosty Maine air soon.

----------


## acptulsa

Inspired by my post count again...



I love those unique wheels the Santa Fe used in rebuilding their late Pacifics and early Hudsons.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I sure hope we get to hear the bark of her stack again echoing in the frosty Maine air soon.


Along with a long, sonorous whistle.

I'll drink to that brother.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> She's an awfully conservative design for '24, with less than 200 psi in her boiler and less than 650 square feet of superheater.  But at 261,000 pounds and a max axle loading at about 60,000, she's actually a great candidate for restoration--and all the more so for 73" drivers that make her fast (but not too fast) yet give her good pulling ability.


I'm guessing that was due to the road she was intended to used on.

Fairly short and not a whole lot of straight, flat runs of track where a "tuned", 300 psi, locomotive would shine.

----------


## acptulsa

> I'm guessing that was due to the road she was intended to used on.
> 
> Fairly short and not a whole lot of straight, flat runs of track where a "tuned", 300 psi, locomotive would shine.


No doubt.  But all that makes her a perfect candidate for modern day excursion service.  She'll be better sited to curvature, easier on the rail, and less expensive to maintain.

And she's not only plenty fast at 90 mph or better, but she's as pretty a Pacific as any.  And that sure makes her prettier than the vast majority of steamers, and _any_ diesel.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> No doubt.  But all that makes her a perfect candidate for modern day excursion service.  She'll be better sited to curvature, easier on the rail, and less expensive to maintain.


Talking to a few people up here "in the know", those are exactly some of the criteria that were used to choose the 470 over a couple of other options.




> And she's not only plenty fast at 90 mph or better, but she's as pretty a Pacific as any.  And that sure makes her prettier than the vast majority of steamers, and _any_ diesel.


Hell, I'd get a tear in my eye to see her at 60.

----------


## acptulsa

Another inspirational post count.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O8BXipi...%3DO8BXipiLfwA

----------


## Anti Federalist

The third and final vote to sell #470 passed the other day.

http://www.newenglandsteam.org/news

NESCo will take possession in the next week or two.

$25,000 was the price.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Visited Wiscasset Waterville and Farmington's narrow gauge operation today.



Their annual Christmas function.

A well tuned operation, well worth the visit if you live in the area.

And Maine Narrow Gauge Museum the day before.

----------


## Anti Federalist

bump

----------


## phill4paul

Hey AF. If you are into trains you might want to check out some books by a highschool friend of mine. I also worked for him as a graphic designer for a local tabloid back in the day. He built a small track and laid in a caboose in front of the production shop back in the day. Had a track running along the ceiling of the workspace in... I don't remember but it was larger than HO scale. Here are some of his books if you get a hankering for history......

http://www.tarheelpress.com/page2.html

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Hey AF. If you are into trains you might want to check out some books by a highschool friend of mine. I also worked for him as a graphic designer for a local tabloid back in the day. He built a small track and laid in a caboose in front of the production shop back in the day. Had a track running along the ceiling of the workspace in... I don't remember but it was larger than HO scale. Here are some of his books if you get a hankering for history......
> 
> http://www.tarheelpress.com/page2.html


Thanks brother, I missed that.

----------


## Anti Federalist

UP 4014 update.

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## acptulsa

Class engine 507.  Sister 510 was among the engines that worked the Coyote Special in 1905.

http://www.cprr.org/Museum/Scott_Special_1905.html




> Losee ran engine No. 510 from Ft. Madison to Chillicothe, 105 miles, in 101 minutes, changing at the latter point to clear track into Chicago, with every switch spiked and the entire operating department standing on its toes "rooting."

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## acptulsa



----------


## Anti Federalist

My brother sent this to me the other day.

In stunning condition, Strasbourg knows their $#@!.

They use their engines in revenue freight service as well. IIRC this is the only surviving operational 2-10-0 Decapod in the US.

----------


## acptulsa

Just saw--and heard--a pair of genuine EMD SD-40s (by General Motors, before EMD was sold to Caterpillar).  One was even still in Santa Fe paint.



Those big old two-stroke diesels sure sound different from the GE four-strokers...

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Those big old two-stroke diesels sure sound different from the GE four-strokers...


I've run vessels with twin 20 cylinder EMD power.

Shaft drive, air controlled with dual speed Falk gearboxes.

What a racket.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Lots of rare Maine 2' film.

----------


## acptulsa

My Maine Man!  Sweet!

Are they toy trains or real trains?  Yes!  What could be better?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> My Maine Man!  Sweet!
> 
> Are they toy trains or real trains?  Yes!  What could be better?


Exactly.

I think I'll pay a visit to WW and F this weekend.

----------


## Anti Federalist

More good news:

Southern Railway's 2-8-2 _Mikado_ #4501, after sixteen years of static display and restoration, is back up and running and will start work, hauling excursions at the Tennessee Valley Railway Museum, on 6 and 7 Sept. 

Whoo-hoo!

One of this engine's claims to fame?




> The locomotive appeared in Johnny Cash's 2002 music video for the cover song "Hurt". About a minute into the video he is seen at the throttle of the locomotive.






Just about finished:



In her original green livery:



If you're in the Chattanooga area and enjoy trains and history, turn out next weekend.

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Anti Federalist

bump for acptulsa

----------


## Anti Federalist

Had great day at WW&F's Fall Festival.

Vulcan Number 10 working hard all day without a hitch.



While it looks like a toy, it is not, this locomotive started life working a sugar plantation in Louisiana. It was purchased by Ellis Atwood in the 1950's and re-gauged to match the rest of the Maine two foot gauge equipment.



Underway, in the cab.

----------


## Anti Federalist

And TVRM 4501 made it and is up and running.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Mrs. AF mocks me and says I'm Sheldon.

----------


## osan

> She's rough on the surface, but is in relatively good shape mechanically and all the pieces are there.
> 
> This should be an easy restoration, if the funds can be raised.


By "easy", I must take it you mean it as a relative term.  Nothing about working on steam engines is easy.

----------


## osan

> Mrs. AF mocks me and says I'm Sheldon.


That is grounds for divorce... or murder.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> By "easy", I must take it you mean it as a relative term.  Nothing about working on steam engines is easy.


Yes, exactly, relative.

By easy I mean the whole boiler doesn't need re-tubing, the crown sheet doesn't have holes burned through it, the frame is not cracked or bent...

----------


## Acala

I didn't go back through the whole thread to make sure, but I don't think I posted this here.  If I did, forgive me.  The engineer hanging part way out of the cab of the Northern Pacific Gold Spike Special in this photo is my Great Grandfather:      


Reminds me of how I ain't done $#@!.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I didn't go back through the whole thread to make sure, but I don't think I posted this here.  If I did, forgive me.  The engineer hanging part way out of the cab of the Northern Pacific Gold Spike Special in this photo is my Great Grandfather.
> 
> *Reminds me of how I ain't done $#@!*.


That is some fantastic family history, thanks for posting.

And yeah, I know the feeling.

----------


## acptulsa

> I didn't go back through the whole thread to make sure, but I don't think I posted this here.


I'm sure I'd remember if you did.

That's one pretty 4-4-0.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I'm sure I'd remember if you did.
> 
> That's one pretty 4-4-0.


I was randomly looking at train pictures and came across this from the Sacremento RR Museum.



Then again, if you have the means, you can always have these guys build one for you:

http://www.leviathan63.com/

----------


## acptulsa

> I was randomly looking at train pictures and came across this from the Sacremento RR Museum.


I got some pics in Sacramento before the security guard threatened to confiscate my tripod.  Kind of proud of some of them.

I ought to get those properly scanned to digital...




> Then again, if you have the means, you can always have these guys build one for you:
> 
> http://www.leviathan63.com/


Slide valves in the twenty-first century!  Damned few locomotives were built with those in the twentieth.

They don't go in much for 'betterments', do they?  Though I admit she's little prettier this way.  She's gorgeous in any case.

----------


## Anti Federalist

@acptulsa:

What do you know of Jerry Joe Jacobson and his operation?

http://ageofsteamroundhouse.com/index.html

----------


## acptulsa

> @acptulsa:
> 
> What do you know of Jerry Joe Jacobson and his operation?
> 
> http://ageofsteamroundhouse.com/index.html


Nothing, until now.  Thanks.

Knew of a couple of his steamers, but didn't know where they wound up.  Nice to know NKP 763 is still in one piece, and there are plans for her.

----------


## Anti Federalist

So, I was well aware of railroads being the prime motivators of early suburbanization and the development of coastal resort towns from Wells, Maine, to Coney Island to Palm Beach.

I was *not* aware they invented the "modern" ski resort, and the first chairlift.


*Union Pacific Invention Still Takes Skiers to the Top*

http://www.uprr.com/newsinfo/release..._skilift.shtml

2006 Marks the 70th Anniversary of the First Chair Lift Operation

Early testing in Omaha.



Omaha, Neb., February 27, 2006 – The 2006 ski season marks the 70th anniversary of the world’s first chair lift operation at Sun Valley, Idaho.

Where was the chair lift invented? Omaha, Nebraska. And the company that invented the chair lift? Union Pacific Railroad.

Why would a railroad invent a chair lift? To provide a service, a "transportation" service, for its customers. Union Pacific passenger trains brought skiers from across the country to Sun Valley and a new, convenient way for them to get to the top of the slopes was the next logical step in the design of a premier ski resort.

During the 1930s, Union Pacific Railroad Chairman W. A. Harriman saw Americans beginning to embrace winter sports. Harriman’s railroad operated through some of the most scenic and mountainous territory in the western United States. His vision – develop a world-class winter sports facility served by Union Pacific.

Harriman enlisted Austrian sportsman Count Felix Schaffgotsch to find such a location. In the winter of 1935, Count Schaffgotsch found the area that would become Sun Valley in south central Idaho, about 100 miles northeast of Boise.

"Among the many attractive spots I have visited, this [location] combines more delightful features than any place I have seen in the United States, Switzerland or Austria, for a winter sports resort, " Schoffgotsch wrote to Harriman.

The original 4,300 acres, adjacent to the Sawtooth Mountain National Forest, was the perfect spot. The Sawtooth Mountains, running east and west, protected the future resort area from northern winds. The mountains surrounded a small basin, with the hills and slopes largely free of timber. Snowfall and sunshine were abundant. And natural hot springs would provide outdoor swimming year round.

Construction began on the Lodge, and other facilities, in April 1936.

Meanwhile, nearly 1,200 miles away in Omaha, at Union Pacific Railroad’s headquarters, members of the engineering department were designing various ways to "transport" skiers up the slopes. Several mechanical engineers looked to adapt rope tows, J-bars and cable cars. One young engineer had a different idea.

Jim Curran had worked for an iron works company in Omaha as a structural engineer prior to joining the railroad. His concept was to adapt a system used to load bunches of bananas onto boats into a "transport" system to move people up slopes. Curran’s design called for replacing the hooks for the bananas with chairs for skiers to sit on, while wearing skis! The chairs would be suspended from a single cable running above the chair. His co-workers thought the idea was too dangerous.

Charlie Proctor, a consultant brought in by Union Pacific to help with the design of the resort, was a famous skier from Dartmouth College. He saw Curran’s plans and the rest is history.

Soon, prototypes of the chair lift were being built and tested at the locomotive and railcar repair shop complex in downtown Omaha.

Once the chair design was established, the next step was to determine the speed the chairs would travel.

A lift chair was attached to the side of a truck for the test. Because it was summer in relatively flat Omaha, engineers wore roller skates to simulate skis running over snow. It was determined that between four to five miles per hour would be a comfortable speed to pick up and drop off a skier.

When Union Pacific Railroad opened Sun Valley Resort in December 1936, the world’s first two chair lifts were put into operation. As with anything new, skiers had to get used to these new contraptions. But once they did, the adapted banana-loading system changed the sport of snow skiing forever.

Union Pacific sold Sun Valley on November 15, 1964.

----------


## Anti Federalist

I know only rail-heads will appreciate this, but great news from the Wiscasset Waterville and Farmington, of which I am a supporter.

*WW&F Portland built 0-4-4 Forney type, re-numbered Sandy River and Rangely Lakes number 6, came alive today after a years long restoration project that includes a new, updated boiler that should allow her to run for another 100 plus years.*

For steam nut like me, this is like Nirvana.



Second shovel of coal

----------


## Anti Federalist

http://forum.wwfry.org/index.php?topic=1730.390

Forum thread at WW & F detailing the years of work.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Safety lifts.

----------


## Anti Federalist

FarceBook page

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...d=147279126870

----------


## Anti Federalist

Throttle lines open

----------


## Anti Federalist

What she looked like near the end of her service at SR&RL RR

----------


## Anti Federalist

Locomotive #9 is the only surviving locomotive from 3 different Maine two foot gauge railroads: the Sandy River & Rangeley Lakes (SR&RL), the Kennebec Central (KC), and the Wiscasset, Waterville & Farmington (WW&F).* Additionally, it is the oldest of the surviving Maine Two Footer locomotives (built 1891), and only one of possibly two locomotives surviving from its builder, the Portland Company of Portland, Maine. Therefore it is a unique engine.*

A major expense of the restoration was the construction of a new boiler. Ultrasounds on the old boiler indicated excessive disintegration in certain spots. In addition, the boiler was built with a "modified lap-seam" which is now illegal to operate under Maine law. Rather than to destroy the old boiler with numerous patches and fixes, it was decided to preserve the historical integrity of the old boiler, and to set it aside for future generations to view, while building a new boiler for the locomotive to run with and giving it many more years of life. The new boiler was planned to match the old boiler as closely as possible, working within today's rules and guidelines.

Additionally, the locomotive was assembled with the boiler an integral part of the frame. This technique was used on early standard gauge Forneys, and was used by the Portland Company when it first built the two foot gauge locomotives. Later techniques used by Portland and Baldwin disconnected the boiler from the pulling forces of the train and built a frame around it, much like most locomotives were built. Therefore #9 is being re-assembled with this new frame piece around its firebox.

Work is now nearing completion on the locomotive, and we anticipate the first steam up with the new boiler in the near future. The latest news on number 9's restoration can be found here.

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Anti Federalist

2013:While work progressed on installation of the drivers, a problem was discovered. Number 9's driving wheels are from two different locomotives, most likely due to damage she suffered in derailments on the Sandy River. As a result, this affected the placement of the crank pins on each driving wheel, leading to a "quartering" problem which needed to be solved to reduce stress and wear on the locomotive's journals. Much time was spent on the development of a quartering machine so new crankpin holes could be bored to fix the problem. By the end of the fall, number 9's boiler was on her new frame, her new frame was on her wheels, and her wheels were back on the rails!

2012:Work focused on completion of the frame and the start of work on the driving wheels.

2011: The focus in 2011 was assembly of #9's new frame and attachment of the refurbished cylinders.

2010: Work started on #9's cylinders, which would include boring and the installation of sleeves. The cylinders had been seriously damaged in the past, most likely during some of the derailments experienced while running on the Sandy River. Boring and inserting sleeves were a common practice in repairing steam locomotives, although a bit unusual for locomotives as small as #9. The smokebox was attached to the boiler, as well.

2009: In the spring, the project reached a significant milestone when the new boiler for #9 received its ASME (American Society of Mechanical Engineers) Code S stamp upon successfully passing the ASME inspection. On June 14th, the new boiler was delivered to Sheepscot.

2008: Boothway Railway Village continued work on the new boiler, to the point it was nearly ready for tubes by the end of the year. Meanwhile, at Sheepscot work focused on repairing the frame.

2007: The old boiler is separated from the forward frame, and kept intact with the rear frame. Construction of the locomotive boiler reached a half-way point in June, when it received heat treatment to de-stress the boiler from the welding, in Strasburg, Pennsylvania. Work began to separate the smokebox from the old boiler. Work also began on fixing up the old frame, beginning with the repair of an old gas weld which looked like a bees nest.

2006: Construction of the boiler began at Boothbay Railway Museum, after the completion of drawings. After a photographic record of #9 was made, dismantling of the engine began in the fall.

2005: Considerable study and discussions were held regarding the new boiler's construction. The old boiler was part of the frame of the engine and all of the train was pulled through it. In today's engineering environment that represents an uncomfortable situation. Finally an opinion by the Federal Railroad Administration was reached that should #9 ever come under FRA jurisdiction, it would not be acceptable with the original design. Therefore much time and thought was put into the new design of the boiler and the new frame for #9 which must go around it.

2004: Official requests for bids were put out on the construction of #9's boiler. Ultimately Boothbay Railway Museum was chosen to build the new boiler.

2002: Members and friends were extremely generous during the 2001 fundraiser and with giving in memory of Harry Percival. More than $20,000 has been raised.

2001: Fund raising began for the restoration with the inclusion of #9 in the annual fund raiser. $5000 was asked for, more than $10,000 was raised. Additionally, it was announced that donations made in memory of Harry Percival (who died in December of 2001) will go toward the #9 restoration.

2000: In September the WW&F Board of Directors concluded several years of negotiations with the locomotive's owner with the signing of a long-term, 25-year renewable lease. This marked a major milestone, as it allows the WW&F to pursue the restoration of the locomotive to an operating condition.

1997: The rear truck under the tender is rebuilt, a broken archbar is found and replaced. The locomotive operates with compressed air in May, June, and August. The boiler undergoes an ultrasound test. Results indicate some areas are too thin to safely hold up under full steam pressure. The Board of Directors decides reboilering will be necessary to bring the locomotive back into service, and begins negotiations with the owner.

1996: Replicas of the engine's builder's plates and number plates are cast. The boiler passes hydrostatic tests. A new replica headlight is built. The locomotive operates under its own power, via compressed air, in October. It is believed this is the first time it has done so since 1934. The throttle is rebuilt.

1995: Following the death of Alice Ramsdell in December 1994, a lease agreement is reached with the executor to the estate for #9. The locomotive returns to Maine just hours before the celebration of the WW&F's centennial anniversary of regularly scheduled train service. Valve gear is removed, cleaned, and replaced. Many other areas of the locomotive are inspected and cleaned.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Only place you'll see a 123 year old steam locomotive hooked up to a computer.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Should be in service for the 2015 season.

*The Saga of Engine Number Nine*

a poem by Fred Morse

I'm engine Number Nine
of Maine's Two-Footer fame.
I reside at Sheepscot Station
in the town of Alna, Maine.

I'd like to tell my story
from beginning to the end,
and I hope with all your kindness
I'll be able to run again.

I was born in Portland, Maine
in "1891",
‘twas the shores of Casco Bay,
where my life begun.

I was christened Number Five
and sent upon my way;
to the Sandy River Railroad,
that was to be my stay.

I ran the rails from Farmington to Phillips,
almost everyday,
keeping people happy
all along the way.

In "1908", that was the date,
that I really thought was swell,
I had more track to travel on,
and my number changed as well.

From Number Five to Number Six
when my company did combine,
The Sandy River Railroad
and the Phillips and Rangeley line.

For many years I traveled these rails
with passengers galore,
I carried the mail and freight,
and also much much more.

I blew my whistle and rang my bell
as I'd pass through the towns,
and people waved and cheered me on,
as I would make my rounds.

Alas! In "1925"
my life would change again,
I went to the Kennebec Central line,
as it was known back then.

They made me Number Four,
as it seemed the thing to do,
and I started work all over again
with a brand new crew.

I pulled many loads of coal
from the shores of Randolph, Maine,
to our nation's "soldier's home",
Togus was its name.

Passengers, as well as freight,
were also pulled by me.
I worked real hard until "‘29",
then rested till "‘33".

My life was then to change again,
it seemed that it was so,
I was always kept a running
and always on the go.

I was sent to the Sheepscot Valley
to the Wiscasset, Waterville and Farmington line.
The railroad to the coast it was,
and I felt that it was fine.

I became engine Number Nine,
away with Number Four,
and that's the number I have
now, and forevermore.

My work on the Two-Foot railroad
ended mighty quick,
for part of my poor old frame
got really very sick.

And then in early June,
the 15th to be sure,
number Eight went off the track
and the railroad closed its door.

I thought my days were numbered,
as well they might have been,
if it hadn't been for a railfan,
who had spotted me right then.

I was taken to Connecticut
and put inside a barn,
and there I sat for many years
upon the Ramsdell farm.

After all those years of slumber
my luck has changed again,
I've returned to Sheepscot Station,
I remembered, way back when.

Each summer Saturday morning,
I'm pushed outside the door,
and there I set watching Number Ten,
go by me with a roar.

I'd love to be upon those tracks
heading for Alna Center,
but "alas" there's work to do
before that phase I'll enter.

I'm told that a brand new boiler
will get me on my way,
so now we have to have some funds
to really make my day.

Being engine Number Nine
with all those years of rest,
I've come up with a plan,
I really think is best.

Both old and young should have a chance
to help me to succeed,
a small donation of nine dollars each,
would help me in my need.

So keep those coins aflowing
right into Sheepscot, Maine,
and before you'll even know it,
I'll again be the head of a train.

Your names shall all be entered in a log,
on the station desk,
and I hope to have ten thousand names
to help me in my quest.

That log I'll carry with me,
when I am on my way,
T'will travel to Alna Center
because You've made my Day!

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## acptulsa

Glossary:

A Forney is a steam engine with its water and fuel supply on board (a tank engine with no tender) and a headlight on each end.  Often used on commuter lines.

A Two Footer is a little locomotive that operates on rails only two feet apart--among the narrowest of 'narrow gauge' lines.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Glossary:
> 
> A Forney is a steam engine with its water and fuel supply on board (a tank engine with no tender) and a headlight on each end.  Often used on commuter lines.
> 
> A Two Footer is a little locomotive that operates on rails only two feet apart--among the narrowest of 'narrow gauge' lines.


I forgot, Non-Sheldon types were reading this.

The tank and cab are in the shop, ready for mounting on the new deck and frame.

The Sandy River and Rangely Lakes RR was largest of the Maine "two footers", the only state in the US that used 2 foot gauge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_R...Lakes_Railroad

----------


## Anti Federalist

A great "side by side" look.

----------


## acptulsa

> A great "side by side" look.


Very nice.  And that nice Mikado was definitely not the biggest steam engine--even when she was built.

I'll say it again:  Are the two-footers real trains or toy trains?  Yes!  What could be better?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Very nice.  And that nice Mikado was definitely not the biggest steam engine--even when she was built.


No, not by a long shot. Just "average" standard gauge size for its time.




> I'll say it again:  Are the two-footers real trains or toy trains?  Yes!  What could be better?


Why yes, yes they are.

Jason Lamontagne, in the red sweat shirt in the photos, has been in charge of the project and doing a great job.

He is also, IIRC, the fellow in charge of the MEC 470 project.



http://www.newenglandsteam.org/

----------


## Anti Federalist

Essex Steam Train- Essex CT - Christmas Special

http://essexsteamtrain.com/

----------


## Anti Federalist

//

----------


## Anti Federalist

Bump for better pictures

Spent a great day up at Wiscasset Waterville and Farmington.

Huge crowd most of the day, great turn out and a night trip.

Could have been going home for Christmas in 1914 instead of 2014.

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Anti Federalist

Not a scrap of PPE to be seen.

Our modern "risk managers" would have you believe that whole shop crew died, every day.

----------


## acptulsa

> 'For no other machine has ever exercised a fascination for the human imagining comparable to that of the steam locomotive.'--_Lucius Beebe_


Oh, AF!  I got _High Iron_ for Christmas, an original 1938 copyright 210 page gem full of streamlined steamers, glorified doodlebugs posing as the latest in revolutionary diesel transportation, and tons of pluperfect, occasionally pugilistic prose from the immortal Beebe himself, like this bit alerting Boobus' great grandfathers to the good things that they would lose in a couple of short decades:




> 'When it comes  to the designs of Diesel power, however, most rail enthusiasts, and especially the photographic-minded among them, are baffled and saddened.  There is nothing significant of action in the passing of the Denver Zephyr except an _envoi_ in the form of a cooud of dust and the corpse of an occasional chicken immolated on the altar of speed, and nothing so cheers the traditionalist as the spectacle of the Super Chief being assisted up the hillsides by one of the Santa Fe's Northerns, all guts and exhibitionism and smoke, for all the world like a 1910 Pope-Hartford trailing shamefully home behind a team of plow horses.  There is a wonder and a beauty to the City of Los Angeles but there is not motion and there is not the stirring thunder of exhaust.--_Lucius Beebe_


Seems to me 1938 was about the time the _City of Los Angeles_ moved up to three E-2s.  Half a dozen V-12, two cycle Winton 201-A diesels don't make enough thunder for the man?  I guess it was just the wrong kind of thunder.

Here's to guts, smoke and exhibitionism!

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Oh, AF!  I got _High Iron_ for Christmas, an original 1938 copyright 210 page gem full of streamlined steamers, glorified doodlebugs posing as the latest in revolutionary diesel transportation, and tons of pluperfect, occasionally pugilistic prose from the immortal Beebe himself, like this bit alerting Boobus' great grandfathers to the good things that they would lose in a couple of short decades:
> 
> Here's to guts, smoke and exhibitionism!


Merry Christmas brother!

I, from *my* brother, received a limited edition pencil print of the MEC 470, donated by the artist for the MEC 470 restoration, AND a yearly membership to the restoration association.

I'll post a pic when I have a little more time

----------


## acptulsa

> Merry Christmas brother!
> 
> I'll post a pic when I have a little more time


Merry Christmas to you too, and you had better do just that!

Meanwhile...




> 'Nobody has ever tabulated the gallons of forty-rod whiskey which, together with the millions of ties and hundreds of thousands of tons of rails, were consumed in laying down the U.P.'s stretch of the Pacific Railroad.  The figures would probably be frightening to a generation in less heroic toss-pots and more abated thirsts, but just as elections in America have, as an inevitable by-product of enlightened democracy, been floated in rum, the U.P. floated into existence upon a tide, indeed a veritable Niagara, of strong waters.  The progress of empire strewed the desert and illustrated the plains with empty flasks and the erection of a handsome and ample saloon was the first of all considerations when a new construction camp was being staked out.  For Dodge's Irishmen were serious drinkers and they took incidental but considered pleasure, while pursuing their favorite sport, in howling, screaming, gouging out each other's eyes, discharging firearms and setting fire to the premises.  The atmosphere of the roaring towns was somewhat less tranquil than that, say, of Arsenal Street in Springfield, Massachusetts, on a Sunday afternoon.  Sam Bowles of the Springfield _Republican_ called them 'Hell on Wheels' but it all depends on the individual attitude.'--_Lucius Beebe_

----------


## acptulsa

One Berkshire, class of '35.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Merry Christmas brother!
> 
> I, from *my* brother, received a limited edition pencil print of the MEC 470, donated by the artist for the MEC 470 restoration, AND a yearly membership to the restoration association.
> 
> *I'll post a pic when I have a little more time*


Have to get on this as soon as I get home.

----------


## acptulsa



----------


## Anti Federalist

> Have to get on this as soon as I get home.


Almost forgot...

----------


## surf

those old engines are pretty cool.

I get periodical updates (flyers) on the commuter train that will supposedly run from a stop not too far away from where I live into Seattle. last I saw it is to open in 2023. I've been getting flyers for about 5 years now.

the interesting aspect of how this effects planning can be seen by how the Sounders fans (and scribes) evaluate potential soccer-only stadium locations. all of the sites being evaluated are located near proposed station locations on this non-existent commuter rail system.

i'm kind of intrigued by the concept of being able to get blasted at a game again and just hop on a train. by the time it's complete, however, the costs will make driving and staying sober a better economic decision 

we were talking about commuter trains, weren't we.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> we were talking about commuter trains, weren't we.


LOL - Yeah, the thread morphed into a sort of general train thread.

----------


## acptulsa

Sports event trains are an idea overdue to make a comeback.  The Santa Fe used to run specials to the Santa Ana racetrack.  But that wasn't quite the same as the football specials.  If, for example, the Longhorns won, Sooners fans could console each other on the train going home.  And if they won, the Santa Fe might have had to do a little rebuilding on their Hi-Level coaches come Monday.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Sports event trains are an idea overdue to make a comeback.  The Santa Fe used to run specials to the Santa Ana racetrack.  But that wasn't quite the same as the football specials.  If, for example, the Longhorns won, Sooners fans could console each other on the train going home.  And if they won, the Santa Fe might have had to do a little rebuilding on their Hi-Level coaches come Monday.


TD Garden, Boston - concerts, Bruins and Celtics.



Underneath, North Station:





Ten tracks, and the "T" does a huge business during sports events and concerts.

Anthrax's _"Downeaster"_ also departs from here.

----------


## acptulsa

Half a million pounds.  By itself, not even counting the tender, much less the train.  120 mph.

----------


## acptulsa

> LOL - Yeah, the thread morphed into a sort of general train thread.




+rep to the first person who correctly posts whether this is a train or not and why.

----------


## surf

> +rep to the first person who correctly posts whether this is a train or not and why.


no, it's a hovercraft?

it's still 9 years until I can take a train to Sounders games.

----------


## Anti Federalist

That is a tram or trolley or streetcar.

Not a train since they cannot be coupled to or built into a consist to pull non powered cars, as a general rule.




> +rep to the first person who correctly posts whether this is a train or not and why.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Train humor found on the boiler of Number 9

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Anti Federalist

Imagine being at the throttle at that speed.

Like landing on the moon or doing a four second quarter mile or flying an F15.




> Half a million pounds.  By itself, not even counting the tender, much less the train.  120 mph.

----------


## Pericles

> That is a tram or trolley or streetcar.
> 
> Not a train since they cannot be coupled to or built into a consist to pull non powered cars, as a general rule.


Ive' see trams n Switzerland with non powered cars coupled to them.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Ive' see trams n Switzerland with non powered cars coupled to them.


As a general rule.

----------


## acptulsa

> Imagine being at the throttle at that speed.
> 
> Like landing on the moon or doing a four second quarter mile or flying an F15.

----------


## Anti Federalist

*Soaking Behemoth – The Mack Super Pumper Was A Locomotive Engined Fire Fighter That Could Extinguish Hell Itself (And Often Did)*

http://bangshift.com/bangshiftxl/mac...sh-hell-often/

----------


## Anti Federalist

Random train image popped up on imgur.

----------


## surf

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-...o-expand-line/

On tour of UW station, Inslee backs $15 billion tax plan for more light rail 

Originally published April 17, 2015 at 8:51 pm  |  Updated April 18, 2015 at 2:53 pm  

Gov. Jay Inslee speaks at a news conference Friday at the University of Washington light-rail station. The governor supports Sound Transit’s request for $15 billion to expand the light-rail network. (Ellen M. Banner / The Seattle Times)

King County Executive Dow Constantine, who is chairman of the Sound Transit board of directors, also spoke at the site of the University of Washington light-rail station. (Ellen M. Banner / The Seattle Times)

The University of Washington Station features midnight-blue tiles. Gov. Jay Inslee, along with other state officials and politicians, took a tour Friday of the UW station, which will open early next year. (Ellen M. Banner / The Seattle Times)

Construction workers and the media, standing at the top of the escalators, were included in the tour of the University of Washington Station. (Ellen M. Banner / The Seattle Times)

Exterior shot of the University of Washington Sound Transit light-rail station. The governor and other officials toured the station, which will open next year, on Friday. (Ellen M. Banner / The Seattle Times).



1 of 5  Gov. Jay Inslee speaks at a news conference Friday at the University of Washington light-rail station. The governor supports Sound Transit’s request for... More   



Amid skepticism by some lawmakers, Gov. Jay Inslee makes a photo-op at UW Station, to insist on allowing Sound Transit the entire $15 billion it wants to send to the 2016 ballot.


By Mike Lindblom  

Seattle Times transportation reporter

Gov. Jay Inslee took his bully pulpit underground Friday into the future University of Washington Station, to send a message that nothing less than $15 billion is acceptable to expand the regional light-rail network.

That number has created a stumbling block in Olympia, as lawmakers try for a third year to agree on a massive transportation package.





The Senate, controlled by Republicans, approved an 11.7-cent gas-tax increase, predominantly for highways, while limiting Sound Transit to $11 billion in a separate tax measure that would go to voters in urban Snohomish, King and Pierce counties next year.
....

----------


## acptulsa

The Mercury!  A Henry Dreyfus design.

Little prettier than most pics that pop up there.

----------


## Anti Federalist

*The real story behind the demise of America's once-mighty streetcars*

http://www.vox.com/2015/5/7/8562007/...history-demise

Back in the 1920s, most American city-dwellers took public transportation to work every day.

There were 17,000 miles of streetcar lines across the country, running through virtually every major American city. That included cities we don't think of as hubs for mass transit today: Atlanta, Raleigh, and Los Angeles.

Nowadays, by contrast, just 5 percent or so of workers commute via public transit, and they're disproportionately clustered in a handful of dense cities like New York, Boston, and Chicago. Just a handful of cities still have extensive streetcar systems — and several others are now spending millions trying to build new, smaller ones.

So whatever happened to all those streetcars?

More at link...

----------


## acptulsa

Anthrax in the news again bump.

----------


## acptulsa

> Paul also went long on fiscal policy, saying that Amtrak would be better off in private hands. "You would think after having commercial railroads for over 100 years, we could do a better job than that," he said, referring to last week's derailment just miles north of Philadelphia.
> 
> "They've lost money every year they've been existent. I'm looking at the easement and thinking, 'Man, we should sell that.' [Imagine] if we could sell that and let a real company put up a fast train."


http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/ar...iminal-justice

Well, it only has rails in eight states, and it isn't profitable, so I doubt it would sell.  But I still like the way he thinks.

Suppose we gave the rails and the electrically powered equipment to those eight (very wealthy) states and stop making Wyoming and Kansas and Mississippi subsidize the wealthy states?  And suppose we reverse the process that created Amtrak and gave its other equipment to the real railroads can turn it into somewhat faster, considerably nicer, indubitably safer trains?  The routes would not change--Amtrak forces the real railroads to run its trains as it is.  Why shouldn't the real railroads be allowed to run their own trains?

----------


## acptulsa

Could it be possible that Nixon had a very Nixonian reason for creating Amtrak..?




> Planes, Trains, and Automobiles: None Are Safe from the State's Plundering Parasites 
> 
> http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com...-none-are.html
> 
> “Is anyone present carrying more than ten marks, or planning to take out of the country any foreign money, gold, jewels, or other valuables?” demanded the German customs inspector after boarding the Innsbruck-bound train. “Any violation of the law will be punished with penal servitude --special cases by death.”
> 
> Freya Roth, a single woman in her 20s traveling with her mother and younger brother, produced her passport and handed it to the inspector. After the document was stamped, the truculent bureaucrat noticed the young lady’s luggage. 
> 
> “Whose suitcase is that?” he snapped, his voice colored with an implied threat. “Take it down – open it.”
> ...

----------


## acptulsa



----------


## Anti Federalist

Stopped by Essex RR for the first time, had a great time.

http://essexsteamtrain.com/

----------


## Anti Federalist

acptulsa, have you been following any of the UP steam program fiasco?

http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic...38018&start=45

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Anti Federalist

Better pic

----------


## Danke



----------


## Anti Federalist

Oh man, how did I miss *this*???

Following the lead of the UK's "Peppercorn Trust", we now have the *Pennsylvania Rail Road T1 Trust*.

What is a T1 you ask?

Only one of the fastest, most powerful, advanced and gorgeous steam locomotives ever built.



Not a single one escaped scrapping, just like A-1 Peppercorns in the UK.

This outfit intends to change that, and build a new one from scratch, number 5550, that will not only provide mainline, coast to coast steam excursion service *but also set the land speed record for steam powered locomotives.*



*Dream Becomes Reality…*

https://prrt1steamlocomotivetrust.org/

The Pennsylvania Railroad (PRR) T1 Steam Locomotive Trust is a non-profit organization that believes in thinking differently about preservation. Through hard work, dedicated volunteers and the financial support of many generous donors from around the globe, the T1 Trust is constructing PRR T1 5550. Slated to become the fifty-third locomotive of its class when complete, 5550 combines stunning art deco design with a unique 4-4-4-4 wheel arrangement. 
*
The goal is simple; to provide mainline steam excursion service, and to set the World Speed Record for a steam locomotive.*

The PRR T1 represents the pinnacle of steam locomotive design in the United States. These locomotives had the capability of achieving speeds in excess of 120 mph, and anecdotal reports indicate that speeds of up to 140 mph were attained. In all, 52 class T1 locomotives were produced, 25 at the PRR's Altoona shops and 27 at the Baldwin Locomotive Works in Philadelphia. 

Sadly, not a single example of this magnificent machine escaped the scrapper's torch.

The production of PRR T1 5550 will fill a large gap in historical locomotive preservation. Perhaps more importantly, this locomotive will inject new life blood into an aging heritage fleet. Most US built steam locomotives operating today are over 60 years old. Wear and tear are taking their toll. Efforts such as this one, to create a powerful new machine, will become increasingly important if steam excursion service is to be present in another 60 years.

The die has already been cast for this project. 

In 2008 a group of railway enthusiasts in Great Britain completed LNER Peppercorn Class A1 60163 Tornado, the first mainline steam locomotive built in the United Kingdom since 1960. Posted here is a link to the Tornado video. This video provides inspiration, and describes the framework we'll rely on for the PRR T1 5550 project.

Experience has shown that in a project such as this, a large number of small donations, which recur monthly, can achieve success. If you would like to see this project come to fruition, please consider using the Donate Button below to make a contribution. Some supporters will wish to make a $20 per month recurring pledge. The regular donation was the driving force behind Tornado. For less than one dollar per day, we can all marvel at the sight of 5550, phoenix-like, arising from the molten metal of the foundry to fly at 140 mph, shrouded in Vulcan's billowing cape.

----------


## acptulsa

Interesting.

The T-1 was an impressive and extraordinarily handsome locomotive.  But they had problems.  An engine that big and with eight drive wheels should have been able to haul freight, not just passenger trains.  But the first four drive wheels weren't connected to the last four drive wheels.  This made it hard to get a heavy train moving without the drive wheels slipping.  In a normal Northern type where the eight drive wheels were all forced by the connecting rods to turn the same speed, you didn't slip trying to get a heavy freight moving unless all the drive wheels lost traction.  In the case of the T-1, only half of the wheels had to slip to force the engineer to cut back the throttle, as seen at about the 1:21 mark.




It was like hauling a train with two little Atlantic types, not one big Northern, except that if you double-head two Atlantics each has a separate throttle and separate engineer, and the one with traction doesn't have to stop pulling hard while the other backs off and stops the wheels from slipping.  With a T-1, if either pair of drive axles slips, you have to back off the throttle, and the same throttle feeds all four cylinders.  I've heard of a film made of a T-1 trying to start a particularly heavy freight, where you see first one pair of drive axles slip, then just as soon as the engineer gets it settled down and pulling again, the other pair starts slipping.

But that didn't make it a less beautiful engine, or a less able engine in passenger service.  It's going to be fun if and when they get it done.  But I don't think they're going to ever make more than one of the behemoths.

Actually, it's ironic that the duplex design led to them being retired early, as that was supposed to allow them to last longer.  By the time steam locomotives got this powerful, the fact that the best designs utilized only two cylinders was getting to be a problem.  Those two cylinders produced, in the case of the best of the lot like the C&O's and the Santa Fe's 2-10-4 Texas types, the strongest piston thrust ever produced by any piston.  They tended to shake themselves to pieces, eventually.  The whole idea of the duplex was to allow the use of smaller cylinders.

It's a pity they aren't experimenting with a different duplex, like the single B&O engine, which could easily be modified to connect the four axles together.  This would prevent half the wheels from slipping at a time.  That would accomplish something that hasn't been done in some seventy years--it would advance the state of the art of steam locomotive design.

----------


## acptulsa

A Pennsy T-1!  Brand new!



I believe this is the first Raymond Loewy original design built from steel in over forty years.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Gorgeous fall day on the WW&F on Saturday.

----------


## Brian4Liberty



----------


## Anti Federalist

#9 at WW&F nearing completion.

Cab, running boards, tender installed.

----------


## Anti Federalist

More Maine narrow gauge news:

*Monson Engine #3 back in steam for the first time in 8 years, slated to haul "Polar Express" trains in Portland.*

https://www.facebook.com/BridgtonSac...21800834522880

Bridgton & Saco River Engine 7 added 5 new photos — with Jay Monty.

October 30 at 4:58pm · Edited ·

Today, another huge milestone was reached on the path to rehabilitating the Maine Narrow Gauge Steam fleet. Monson Railroad #3 moved under its own power again for the first time in 8 years following a major boiler overhaul. This accomplishment reflects a strengthening partnership between the Maine Narrow Gauge Railroad, Sandy River and Rangley Lakes Railroad and Maine Locomotive and Machine Works. Over the next couple of weeks, final reassembly will take place and the locomotive will be transported to Portland for FRA inspection and placement into service for Polar Express. In the spring #3 will be returned to Phillips, Maine where it will operate at the Sandy River and Rangeley Lakes Railroad Museum through an ongoing lease agreement with the Maine Narrow Gauge. We hope you will celebrate this major milestone with us by riding behind #3 during Polar Express or in Phillips next season.

----------


## acptulsa

A Forney come back to life!

Now if we could just run it over the heads of New Yorkers on the elevated tracks, like they were designed to do.  That would wake those jaded Manhattanites up.

It was fun to see a story on the original diesel EMC-Budd _Flying Yankee_ on _Tracks Ahead_ this morning.  Hope they get the old thing running.  Vermont will be an odd home for it, but handy to you.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> A Forney come back to life!


I hate to see Monson #4 sidelined, but other projects take precedence. 

There are three "new" (meaning complete top to bottom rebuild and new boilers) 2 foot Maine Forneys back in steam, or close to it:

Monson #3

Wiscasset #9

Bridgton and Saco #7 (should be done early 2016)

(Happy to report that I played a small part in every one of these projects)




> Now if we could just run it over the heads of New Yorkers on the elevated tracks, like they were designed to do.  That would wake those jaded Manhattanites up.


Had to go pull a pic of that:






> It was fun to see a story on the original diesel EMC-Budd _Flying Yankee_ on _Tracks Ahead_ this morning.  Hope they get the old thing running.  Vermont will be an odd home for it, but handy to you.


Vermont?

Last I heard, she was at the Hobo RR in Lincoln NH, under restoration funded by donation and owned by the State of NH.

They planning on running it over Blount's old Steamtown network in VT?

http://www.hoborr.com/equipnew.html

THE FLYING YANKEE Boston and Maine/Maine Central #6000 

The streamliner FLYING YANKEE provided service between Boston, Portland and Bangor (750 miles per day-six days per week). The unit was built by the Budd Company in 1934 and saw service in the Boston, New Hampshire and Maine corridor until 1957. The trainset was unique because of the type of custom car configuration the unit employed.  The train was powered by a Winton 201 A Diesel Electric (the first type of longer distance train not powered by steam). The train was the first with fixed windows, providing air conditioning for the first time. The train had no diner, and food was prepared in a galley and served on trays to passengers which were affixed to the seat in front. The Yankee was delivered February 10, 1935 and on April 1, 1935 the Yankee was christened with a bottle of water from Sebago Lake in Maine and began service. The Yankee's service was discontinued on May 7, 1957. The trainset was donated by the B & M Railroad to the Edaville RR in Carver, Massachusetts. It sat there for almost 40 years until Bob Morrell purchased the train and brought it to New Hampshire. It was moved to the shops of the Hobo Railroad in 2005 to complete its restoration. The train set is now owned by the State of New Hampshire, and is being restored with donated funds.

I'm certainly happy to see all the New England equipment come back from Edaville.

----------


## acptulsa

Well, they distinctly said Vermont.  Put _Tracks Ahead_ has never been the world's most reliable source.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Only 25 years ago.

Rich Trethewey travels to (West) Germany to visit a home heating boiler factory.

Nary a hard hat or safety glasses to be seen.

----------


## pcosmar



----------


## Anti Federalist

#9 lives.

First time in steam under her own power since 1933.

I know this doesn't interest many folks, but the effort by WW & F RR Museum staff has been *heroic* to get this project done.

A round of applause.



If you are in Central Maine on the 19th of December, stop by for the WW and F's annual Christmas function.

It is free.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Wisca...m/147279126870

----------


## osan

> A Pennsy T-1!  Brand new!
> 
> 
> 
> I believe this is the first Raymond Loewy original design built from steel in over forty years.



I have recently read there are some who are building brand new steam engines that represent several quanta improvements over the trains of yore.  Apparently, materials science has solved many of the problems that plagued the old horses.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Great Christmas function at Wiscasett Waterville and Farmington today.

#9 up and running all day.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Couple more pics...

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Anti Federalist

^^^ This is really one the very best railroad museums in the country ^^^

If you're ever in downeast Maine, I highly suggest stopping by, if you have any interest at all in such things.

You will not regret it.

----------


## Anti Federalist

So, guess what I did today...



*Maine Narrow Gauge Railroad Co. & Museum*

Want to drive a steam engine!? We're offering a rare opportunity to be a "guest engineer" on Locomotive #3 after Christmas! This is a special hands-on experience that will let you travel back in time as you operate a 100-year old steam locomotive. This program is being held on December 26/27 and January 2/3. The cost is $200 for an hour and a half. Please message us or call 207-828-0814 to reserve your spot, there are limited times available, don't delay! A great Christmas gift! 

https://www.facebook.com/mainenarrow...type=3&theater

----------


## Anti Federalist

Another picture of #9

----------


## Anti Federalist

At the throttle of #3

----------


## Anti Federalist

Bump for acptulsa, who I see is back around.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Got damn it...now who am I going to talk trains with?

----------


## Origanalist

> Got damn it...now who am I going to talk trains with?


What the hell happened?

----------


## Danke

> Got damn it...now who am I going to talk trains with?


You will find a new place.

Try these to begin with.

https://www.facebook.com/Train-Buddies-183620188344390/

http://www.railroad.net/forums/

----------


## Dr.3D

> What the hell happened?


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ptulsa-BANNED-!

----------


## Origanalist

> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ptulsa-BANNED-!


Closed thread? Isn't that like the "newz" sites that post propaganda pieces and don't allow comments? What the f.... oh, excuse me, I forgot. No swearing here. No insulting spammers. But you can lick up one side of Trumps dick and down the other and hey, it's awesome baby. What a pathetic joke.

----------


## Dr.3D

> Closed thread? Isn't that like the "newz" sites that post propaganda pieces and don't allow comments? What the f.... oh, excuse me, I forgot. No swearing here. No insulting spammers. But you can lick up one side of Trumps dick and down the other and hey, it's awesome baby. What a pathetic joke.


Hope you're not blaming me.  I only answered your question.

----------


## Origanalist

> Hope you're not blaming me.  I only answered your question.


Giraffes

----------


## Dr.3D

> Giraffes


Well, ya can never tell when it comes to a grumpy cat.

----------


## Origanalist

> Well, ya can never tell when it comes to a grumpy cat.


You know better doc, hows the "puppy" doing?

----------


## Dr.3D

> You know better doc, hows the "puppy" doing?

----------


## acptulsa

> Got damn it...now who am I going to talk trains with?


Well?  If you crank two axles of a duplex so all the wheels turn together, and none of them slip unless all of them slip, is that really a 4-10-4, Sheldon?  Or is it still a four cylinder simple engine on a rigid chassis, and therefore a 4-4-6-4 Duplex?  Inquiring minds want to know.

I know a certain beer company made a joke of the phrase years ago, but I really do love you, man.




> Invalid Thread specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator


Well _that_ clears it right up, LOL




> Well, ya can never tell when it comes to a grumpy cat.


Originalist, my good man, I fear it's no longer permissible for the old cats to be grumpy...

----------


## Anti Federalist

*The 21 Campaign: Watch your money go up in smoke!*

https://fundrazr.com/21campaign



The WW&F Introduces the 21 Campaign

The Wiscasset, Waterville & Farmington Railway, with roots reaching back to 1854 but alive and kicking in the 21st Century, announces its 21 Campaign. The number "21" represents our commitment to both restoring locomotive #10 to service and building locomotive #11, a reconstruction of original WW&F locomotive #7. The goals of today’s WW&F Railway are grandiose and plentiful consistent with the outlook of the Wiscasset & Quebec Railroad in the mid 1800s. With that in mind, this campaign's goals are to raise funds to construct boilers for locomotives #10 and #11 and build enthusiasm and interest among our supporters and volunteers.
Enthusiasm Fuels Itself!

Our museum thrives on this principle. Our culture promotes the hands on involvement of our members to identify and rise to challenges. A team effort allows us to stretch our donor's dollars and creates pride of ownership. The effort results in infectious enthusiasm, and greater involvement, allowing us to repeat successful performances and increase their breadth. Perhaps this is best illustrated by the recent return of locomotive #9 to service after 83 years, but those familiar with the museum have seen similar results play out time and time again. Exciting projects like reconstructing the Wiscasset turntable and restoring boxcar 67 are underway. Our success is defined by forward motion; we apply consistent effort to make regular progress on our goals, until those goals are met. When a goal involves a challenge, we meet it.

----------


## acptulsa

New Yorkers use an old, elevated Forney track to squeeze in a nice park and every photojournalist on the PBS payroll comes running.  These people pick a beautiful spot and run a Forney through it, and railfans will have to put it on YouTube.

No wonder it gets such lousy ratings.  They only show trains the two weeks they're begging for money.

----------


## Anti Federalist

They get some good local coverage.

http://www.wmtw.com/news/hometown-maine-alna/37045000





> New Yorkers use an old, elevated Forney track to squeeze in a nice park and every photojournalist on the PBS payroll comes running.  These people pick a beautiful spot and run a Forney through it, and railfans will have to put it on YouTube.
> 
> No wonder it gets such lousy ratings.  They only show trains the two weeks they're begging for money.

----------


## acptulsa

A '41 Baldwin 4-8-4

3600 net drawbar horsepower at 40, and a top speed of about 125.

----------


## Anti Federalist

https://www.facebook.com/NewEnglandSteam

----------


## Anti Federalist

Anthrax...


*Amtrak Spending $2.4 Billion on New 'Faster' Trains That Probably Won't Go Any Faster*

https://reason.com/blog/2016/09/01/a...-on-new-faster

The big purchase is a good metaphor for the state of high speed rail in America right now, where politically driven promises can't overcome hard reality.

Eric Boehm|Sep. 1, 2016 9:35 am

Amtrak's announcement that it plans to spend $2.4 billion upgrading its fleet of Acela trains is a little bit like a guy who plans to buy a new Ferrari to use on his daily commute and nothing else.

Sure, you've got a flashy new toy that can outrun anything else on the road—but if the roads are clogged and you can't put the pedal down to really make that baby hum, then what's the point?

The 28 new trains will be running by 2019 and will be able to go 160 mph, according to Amtrak. That's 25 mph faster than the Acela's current top speed. That modest increase in speed is a key part of Amtrak's decision to purchase the new trains—or at least a key part of their public sales pitch—and was dutifully reported in the media as evidence that the government-run train system would soon provide faster service up and down the east coast.

Is this the European-style high speed rail of progressive dreams? Amtrak's president and CEO, Joe Boardman, seems to think so. He said the new trains will provide passengers with "the experience of the future."

The reality of the present suggests a different outcome.

Even if the new trains are capable of going faster, that doesn't mean they actually will. In fact, they probably won't, because the current Acela almost never reaches top speed. Like highways, railroads have speed limits that take into account infrastructure and congestion. Most of the Northeast Corridor between Washington, D.C., and Boston is crowded with slower commuter trains and traverses rail lines that aren't capable of handling an Acela train at top speed.

*According to Amtrak's official Northeast Corridor timetable (which contains the speed limits for every section of rail between D.C. and Boston), there are just three small patches where the trains are allowed to go 135 mph or faster.

Going north to south, the first is a 50-mile stretch in Rhode Island and eastern Connecticut, followed by a 25-mile stretch in central New Jersey and then a 20-mile stretch south of Wilmington, Delaware and into the very tip of northeastern Maryland. That's all.*

"The reality is some of the $2.45 billion will be spent improving a short stretch of track between Washington and Baltimore, but this is likely to shave no more than a few minutes off its train times," says Randal O'Toole, a senior fellow on transportation issues at the Cato Institute.

Between New York and Washington, the current average speed of Amtrak's fastest "high-speed" Acela is 82 mph, but most run at about 78 mph, O'Toole's research shows.

"Will the $2.45 billion loan allow Amtrak to boost that average speed to more than 85? Probably not," he says.

Meanwhile, Amtrak has a $21 billion maintenance backlog. Upgrades that improve safety and reliability along the route would be welcome, and maybe some of the aging Acela cars are due for replacement—but does that mean they all need to be scrapped and replaced?

In some ways, this latest purchase is a metaphor for the state of high speed rail in America right now. The Obama administration and Amtrak officials have spent the last eight years promising that railroads—a technology of the 19th and early 20th centuries—would be the transportation system of the future. Those grand plans to reshape how Americans travel keep running into some pesky facts of life in the 21st Century: like the fact that most of America is not densely populated enough to make high speed rail work the way it does in Japan or Germany, or the fact that there's a limited amount of space on train lines in the northeast.

President Barack Obama started beating the drum for high speed rail even before he became president. The federal stimulus bill, which Obama signed into law in February 2009, contained $8 billion for high speed rail projects. A quarter of that money was earmarked for a high speed rail project in California that's more than a decade beyond schedule and billions of dollars over-budget. He kept pushing for more, including a promise made in his 2010 State of the Union address to provide 80 percent of Americans with access to high speed rail within 25 years.

After the speech his administration laid out ambitious plans for high speed rail corridors in the northeast, yes, but also across the southeast, in Texas, in California and a few other places where it wasn't needed and didn't make sense.

"I think President Obama would like to be known as the high-speed rail president, and I think he can be," Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood told NPR at the time.

As Obama gets ready to leave office, that dream of a European-like high speed rail system running from Boston to Washington, D.C., is likely an impossible one, because of the lack of a dedicated line not shared by slower commuter trains.

*A European-style high speed rail system would have to operate on its own right-of-way, but thats a problem too. There's simply not enough available space in the densely populated northeast. Acquiring a new railroad right-of-way by buying up some of the most expensive real estate in the country is simply unaffordable even for the federal government, and relying on a massive application of eminent domain would uproot untold hundreds of families and businesses while still being prohibitively expensive.*

Amtrak says a project like that would cost $150 billion and take 25 years—and that's before the inevitable delays and cost overruns.

"There's no conceivable way to generate enough traffic and revenue to cover the capital costs of such a project," said Bob Poole, director of transportation policy at the Reason Foundation (which publishes this blog).

Considering all those constraints, the Acela is actually pretty good. It gets you from city to city without having to sit in traffic or endure a TSA pat-down.

It suffers because there are lots of political reasons for overpromising what high speed rail in America could be. Once you set aside the aspirational rhetoric, the reality is that we're probably never going to have trains that actually run at 200 MPH or even 160 MPH for more than a few miles at a time—no matter how much money Amtrak spends on fancy new railcars

----------


## Anti Federalist

Well, another Christmas season, another WW and F Christmas function.

Much more "Christamasy" this year.

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Anti Federalist

Former C&O 2-6-6-2 Baldwin compound, now WMSR 1309 is nearing completion of a full restoration effort with an expected operating lifespan of over 50 years.

They look for it to be in service on 1 July 2017.

Tickets can be purchased here: https://public.whistletix.com/WMSR/Events/293388

It will be, once operational, the last surviving commercially built Baldwin locomotive for a US railroad and the largest operating steam locomotive in the world.

https://www.facebook.com/Wmsrsteam/

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Anti Federalist

I miss talking trains with acptulsa...where did he go?

----------


## Anti Federalist

From _Innocents Abroad_ by Mark Twain.


We have come five hundred miles by rail through the heart of France.
What a bewitching land it is!  What a garden!  Surely the leagues of
bright green lawns are swept and brushed and watered every day and their
grasses trimmed by the barber.  Surely the hedges are shaped and measured
and their symmetry preserved by the most architectural of gardeners.
Surely the long straight rows of stately poplars that divide the
beautiful landscape like the squares of a checker-board are set with line
and plummet, and their uniform height determined with a spirit level.
Surely the straight, smooth, pure white turnpikes are jack-planed and
sandpapered every day.  How else are these marvels of symmetry,
cleanliness, and order attained?  It is wonderful.  There are no
unsightly stone walls and never a fence of any kind.  There is no dirt,
no decay, no rubbish anywhere--nothing that even hints at untidiness
--nothing that ever suggests neglect.  All is orderly and beautiful--every
thing is charming to the eye.

We had such glimpses of the Rhone gliding along between its grassy banks;
of cosy cottages buried in flowers and shrubbery; of quaint old red-tiled
villages with mossy medieval cathedrals looming out of their midst; of
wooded hills with ivy-grown towers and turrets of feudal castles
projecting above the foliage; such glimpses of Paradise, it seemed to us,
such visions of fabled fairyland!

We knew then what the poet meant when he sang of:  “--thy cornfields
green, and sunny vines,  O pleasant land of France!”

And it is a pleasant land.  No word describes it so felicitously as that
one.  They say there is no word for “home” in the French language.  Well,
considering that they have the article itself in such an attractive
aspect, they ought to manage to get along without the word.  Let us not
waste too much pity on “homeless” France.  I have observed that Frenchmen
abroad seldom wholly give up the idea of going back to France some time
or other.  I am not surprised at it now.

We are not infatuated with these French railway cars, though.  We took
first-class passage, not because we wished to attract attention by doing
a thing which is uncommon in Europe but because we could make our journey
quicker by so doing.  It is hard to make railroading pleasant in any
country.  It is too tedious.  Stagecoaching is infinitely more
delightful.  Once I crossed the plains and deserts and mountains of the
West in a stagecoach, from the Missouri line to California, and since
then all my pleasure trips must be measured to that rare holiday frolic.
Two thousand miles of ceaseless rush and rattle and clatter, by night and
by day, and never a weary moment, never a lapse of interest!  The first
seven hundred miles a level continent, its grassy carpet greener and
softer and smoother than any sea and figured with designs fitted to its
magnitude--the shadows of the clouds.  Here were no scenes but summer
scenes, and no disposition inspired by them but to lie at full length on
the mail sacks in the grateful breeze and dreamily smoke the pipe of
peace--what other, where all was repose and contentment?  In cool
mornings, before the sun was fairly up, it was worth a lifetime of city
toiling and moiling to perch in the foretop with the driver and see the
six mustangs scamper under the sharp snapping of the whip that never
touched them; to scan the blue distances of a world that knew no lords
but us; to cleave the wind with uncovered head and feel the sluggish
pulses rousing to the spirit of a speed that pretended to the resistless
rush of a typhoon!  Then thirteen hundred miles of desert solitudes; of
limitless panoramas of bewildering perspective; of mimic cities, of
pinnacled cathedrals, of massive fortresses, counterfeited in the eternal
rocks and splendid with the crimson and gold of the setting sun; of dizzy
altitudes among fog-wreathed peaks and never-melting snows, where
thunders and lightnings and tempests warred magnificently at our feet and
the storm clouds above swung their shredded banners in our very faces!
But I forgot.  I am in elegant France now, and not scurrying through the
great South Pass and the Wind River Mountains, among antelopes and
buffaloes and painted Indians on the warpath.  It is not meet that I
should make too disparaging comparisons between humdrum travel on a
railway and that royal summer flight across a continent in a stagecoach.
I meant in the beginning to say that railway journeying is tedious and
tiresome, and so it is--though at the time I was thinking particularly of
a dismal fifty-hour pilgrimage between New York and St. Louis.  Of course
our trip through France was not really tedious because all its scenes and
experiences were new and strange; but as Dan says, it had its
“discrepancies.”

The cars are built in compartments that hold eight persons each.  Each
compartment is partially subdivided, and so there are two tolerably
distinct parties of four in it.  Four face the other four.  The seats and
backs are thickly padded and cushioned and are very comfortable; you can
smoke if you wish; there are no bothersome peddlers; you are saved the
infliction of a multitude of disagreeable fellow passengers.  So far, so
well.  But then the conductor locks you in when the train starts; there
is no water to drink in the car; there is no heating apparatus for night
travel; if a drunken rowdy should get in, you could not remove a matter
of twenty seats from him or enter another car; but above all, if you are
worn out and must sleep, you must sit up and do it in naps, with cramped
legs and in a torturing misery that leaves you withered and lifeless the
next day--for behold they have not that culmination of all charity and
human kindness, a sleeping car, in all France.  I prefer the American
system.  It has not so many grievous “discrepancies.”

In France, all is clockwork, all is order.  They make no mistakes.  Every
third man wears a uniform, and whether he be a marshal of the empire or a
brakeman, he is ready and perfectly willing to answer all your questions
with tireless politeness, ready to tell you which car to take, yea, and
ready to go and put you into it to make sure that you shall not go
astray.  You cannot pass into the waiting room of the depot till you have
secured your ticket, and you cannot pass from its only exit till the
train is at its threshold to receive you.  Once on board, the train will
not start till your ticket has been examined--till every passenger’s
ticket has been inspected.  This is chiefly for your own good.  If by any
possibility you have managed to take the wrong train, you will be handed
over to a polite official who will take you whither you belong and bestow
you with many an affable bow.  Your ticket will be inspected every now
and then along the route, and when it is time to change cars you will
know it.  You are in the hands of officials who zealously study your
welfare and your interest, instead of turning their talents to the
invention of new methods of discommoding and snubbing you, as is very
often the main employment of that exceedingly self-satisfied monarch, the
railroad conductor of America.

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Anti Federalist

No reason we could not have something like that, here.

Luxury trains, similar to luxury cruises.

All that needs to happen is for the fedgov to get out of the railroad business and dissolve Anthrax.

*Luxury on the rails in train-mad Japan*

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/...-japan-8955058

TOKYO: Japan's latest super-deluxe train left the station Saturday (Jun 17) with a select group of passengers who paid thousands of dollars for a leisurely trip harking back to an era of Art Deco opulence and a slower pace of life.

The Twilight Express Mizukaze departed Osaka on its maiden trip with around 30 well-heeled passengers on a journey to the far reaches of Japan's main island.

A couple staying in the 10-car train's top room, The Suite, paid out a combined 2.4 million yen ($22,000) for a two-night, three-day return trip that rolls past emerald green rice paddies, craggy coastlines and ancient shrines.

That eye-popping price tag gets you five-star hotel luxury including a marble-floored bathroom with claw-legged tub in the priciest suite, food prepared by gourmet chefs, and sumptuous lounges where you can sip cocktails as you take in the dramatic scenery through huge viewing windows.

----------


## Pauls' Revere

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Fr...ble_car_system


The San Francisco cable car system is the world's last manually operated cable car system. An icon of San Francisco, the cable car system forms part of the intermodal urban transport network operated by the San Francisco Municipal Railway. Of the 23 lines established between 1873 and 1890,[7] only three remain (one of which combines parts of two earlier lines): two routes from downtown near Union Square to Fisherman's Wharf, and a third route along California Street. While the cable cars are used to a certain extent by commuters, the vast majority of their 7 million annual passengers are tourists.[8] They are among the most significant tourist attractions in the city, along with Alcatraz Island, the Golden Gate Bridge, and Fisherman's Wharf. The cable cars are listed on the National Register of Historic Places.[4]

The cable cars are not to be confused with San Francisco's heritage streetcars, which operate on Market Street and the Embarcadero.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Boo hoo.

About damn time...if we get the FedGov out of long distance train travel, we might be able to re-invigorate the service by offering "land cruises".

Nobody travels by ship to "get somewhere" and travel by train to "get somewhere" at least in the US, is just as impractical.

But a luxury "land cruise" by train, that could be a viable business model.


*If Trump has his way, Amtrak’s long-run trains will roll into history*

http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/a...=articlerecirc

Americans may have a short time left to take a long train ride.

The Amtrak trains that roll daily from the Bay Area to Chicago, Seattle and Los Angeles — as well as into the imaginations of the traveling public — might soon be rolling to the scrapyard instead.

Federal budget cutters once again have their eyes on long-distance Amtrak trains — the ones with bud vases in the dining car and picture windows in the lounge. If the Trump administration has its way, Amtrak will lose about half of its $1.4 billion budget and be forced next year to bump off all its long-distance runs, eliminating service to 23 states, primarily in the West and the South. Short-haul commuter lines such as the Capitol Corridor trains to Sacramento would be all that’s left.

Although Amtrak patronage was higher than ever last year, with 31.3 million passengers carried, President Trump’s budget cutters say long-distance trains carried only 15 percent of those riders.

The administration said its proposed budget for 2018 would redirect federal subsidies so Amtrak could “focus resources on the parts of the passenger rail system that provide meaningful transportation options within regions.” It said long-distance trains “have long been inefficient and incur the vast majority of Amtrak’s operating losses.”

Those operating losses totaled $227 million in fiscal 2016, Amtrak says.

Eliminating long-distance trains “would allow Amtrak to focus on better managing its state-supported and Northeast corridor train services,” the administration said. State-supported trains include California’s Capitol Corridor, San Joaquin and Pacific Surfliner lines, which are funded largely by Caltrans.

The proposed Amtrak cuts would end funding for 15 trains serving 220 cities. Gone would be the Sunset Limited (Los Angeles to New Orleans), the Lake Shore Limited (New York to Chicago) and the Empire Builder (Seattle to Chicago). Saying “Good night, America” for the last time would be the City of New Orleans, of Arlo Guthrie hit fame.

California would lose the Coast Starlight, which runs through the Bay Area twice daily on its way between Seattle and Los Angeles, and the California Zephyr, which departs every morning from Emeryville over the Sierra Nevada and the Rockies and on to Chicago.

At the Emeryville depot, passengers awaiting the departure of the diesel-powered leviathans were wailing like locomotive whistles at a grade crossing.

Trump “cuts everything people need, especially poor people,” said Walter McCain of Oakland, hunkered down in the waiting room the other morning. “Trains are a viable alternative to flying, as long as you’re not in a hurry. And there’s no need to be in a hurry. For what?”

Also not in a hurry were Mike and Marjean O’Neill of Cotati, which was a good thing because it would take them 51 hours to get to Chicago if their train left on time, which, being Amtrak, it didn’t. (The California Zephyr departed 23 minutes late, to allow the dining car crew to finish loading some chickens and the porters to take on bags of linens.)

----------


## acptulsa

This is the former Santa Fe number 1316, as operated by the Texas State Railroad years ago:



This is her today:



So, how did this happen? The sad tale is told here:

http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read....468#msg-267468


The Texas government decided that the way to preserve the engine was not to preserve it, but to completely replace the boiler. And the way to replace the boiler was not to replace it with an equivalent, according to the same design, the way a restorer would do, or even to get in touch with anyone who knows anything about steam locomotives. Instead, the way to preserve this engine was to get a stationary boiler company (and political contributor, perhaps?) to build a boiler according to their own notions, made of thicker steel which cannot and will not expand and contract the same way, and tears itself apart every time it heats up or cools down.

And when throwing money at it hand over fist doesn't work out so well, to just leave the chassis rotting in the weather for a decade, because some taxpayers might get mad if they throw even more money at it. Besides, the Texas legislators already got their kickbacks from the boilermaker; who cares what happens to it now?

This is government. This is your irreplaceable heritage in the hands of a government. Any questions?

----------


## Swordsmyth

> This is the former Santa Fe number 1316, as operated by the Texas State Railroad years ago:
> 
> 
> 
> This is her today:
> 
> 
> 
> So, how did this happen? The sad tale is told here:
> ...


So that's what happened to the Hootervile Canonball?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> The Texas government decided that the way to preserve the engine was not to preserve it, but to completely replace the boiler. And the way to replace the boiler was not to replace it with an equivalent, according to the same design, the way a restorer would do, or even to get in touch with anyone who knows anything about steam locomotives. Instead, the way to preserve this engine was to get a stationary boiler company (and political contributor, perhaps?) to build a boiler according to their own notions, made of thicker steel which cannot and will not expand and contract the same way, and tears itself apart every time it heats up or cools down.
> 
> And when throwing money at it hand over fist doesn't work out so well, to just leave the chassis rotting in the weather for a decade, because some taxpayers might get mad if they throw even more money at it. Besides, the Texas legislators already got their kickbacks from the boilermaker; who cares what happens to it now?
> 
> This is government. This is your irreplaceable heritage in the hands of a government. Any questions?


Ugh, assenholes.

Here's how an all volunteer force, with donations only, are building two new boilers from scratch for pennies on the dollar of what gov. spent and in months rather than years.

https://www.facebook.com/wwandf21cam...MELINE&fref=nf



That's a home built cold flanging machine by the way.

----------


## acptulsa

> So that's what happened to the Hootervile Canonball?


No, the Prescott & Arizona Central/Sierra #3 fared much better--thanks to Clint Eastwood taking her restoration out of state government hands and making it a private, voluntary effort.

Most of this stuff is unnecessary, and is happening because of overly stringent federal boiler regulations.  A locomotive could stay active despite an old boiler with no more modification than a safety valve which pops off at lower pressure, with perfect safety.  Their firemen could actually (gasp) be _trusted_ to operate them at that lower pressure, and they could remain completely original, were it not for one-size-fits-none, idiot-proofing-for-all federal regulations.  They wouldn't be as capable as they were when new, but excursion locomotives are seldom pushed to full capacity anyway.

----------


## Anti Federalist

On the same property of the WW & F is Maine Locomotive Works.

They did the FRA overhaul on Monson #3 and are currently building the boiler for Bridgton and Saco River number 7.

https://www.facebook.com/BridgtonSac...ngine7Rebuild/



They also are working on a 2 ft Henschel.

----------


## Anti Federalist

For those who don't know, here's what acptulsa is talking about**:

This is the inside of Santa Fe Steam Railroad locomotive #2926's boiler just completing restoration and inspection.

This void area is full of water, rapidly boiling and creating pressure. All those rods are "staybolts" that hold the inner firebox together, keeping it's shape from distorting due to the intense heat and pressure. This is a "fire tube" boiler, as the fire from the firebox is drafted through the tube causing more water to boil, and steam, which collects at the top of the entire vessel to be drawn off and sent to the drive cylinders.

There must be an allowance for expansion and contraction throughout the structure, due to the wildly variable load conditions.

That is what was engineered out of the state bought boilers.





https://www.facebook.com/NMSX2926/ph...type=3&theater

----------


## Anti Federalist

Meanwhile back in Maine, on the full size front:

https://www.facebook.com/NewEnglandSteam

Restoration of MEC 470 continues.

----------


## acptulsa



----------


## acptulsa



----------


## Anti Federalist

Chinese steam putting on a "spark show" for the photographers.

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Swordsmyth



----------


## Anti Federalist

*The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse*

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...aginably-worse

Think Penn Station is bad? Let’s go into the crumbling, disaster-prone tunnels that lie beneath.

By Devin Leonard January 10, 2018, 5:00 AM EST

To get to New York’s Penn Station, every northbound Amtrak passenger makes the last leg of their journey, through tunnels beneath the Hudson River, in the dark. Trust me: They should be glad. One day this autumn, an Acela pulls into Newark, N.J., and a railway spokesman escorts me onto the rear engine car, where we stand and take in the view facing backward. As we descend into one of the Hudson tunnels—there are two, both 107 years old, finished in the same year the Wright brothers built their first airplane factory—a supervisor flips on the rear headlights, illuminating the ghastly tubes.

Our train (unsurprisingly) is operating at reduced speed because of an electrical glitch, which just gives us more time to gawk at the damage. There are eerie, nearly fluorescent white stains on the tunnel walls that look like they were painted by a giant with a roller brush. The pale swaths are remnants of the salt water that inundated the passages five years ago, during Hurricane Sandy. Sulfates and chlorides have been eating away at the concrete ever since, exposing reinforcement bars underneath. “Keep your eyes peeled,” says Craig Schulz, the affable Amtrak spokesman, “and you’ll see some of these areas where there is literally just crumbling concrete.”

As we emerge into the bowels of Penn Station, Schulz points to wooden flood doors above the tunnel entrances. They were installed during World War II to hold back the river if the tubes were torpedoed by a Nazi submarine. In the gloom, the doors look a full century older than their vintage. They seem more suited for a dungeon than a modern rail system like this one—the Northeast Corridor, which runs from Boston to Washington, D.C., serving an area that generates a fifth of U.S. gross domestic product. Before we step off the train, Schulz repeats Amtrak’s mantra: The storm-ravaged tunnels are safe, for now, but the railroad doesn’t know how long it will be able to keep them in service.

I’d been assigned to write a story about Pennsylvania Station, but I wanted to get a caboose-eye view of the decaying tunnels leading up to it, because the only imaginable way the station could be any worse is if it were underwater. Penn, the Western Hemisphere’s busiest train station, serves 430,000 travelers every weekday—more than LaGuardia, JFK, and Newark airports combined. More than 200,000 people also use the subway stops that connect to Penn through harshly lit, low-ceilinged subterranean corridors. Locals race through the place; out-of-towners proceed more anxiously, baffled by the layout of what is truly not one station but three: Amtrak shares the space with the Long Island Rail Road and New Jersey Transit. All who schlep through the complex are united by a powerful urge to leave. “Everybody just wants to get the hell out of there,” says Mitchell Moss, director of the Rudin Center for Transportation Policy and Management at New York University.

There are too many people in Penn Station because there are too many trains—more than 1,300 arrivals and departures every weekday, twice the number from four decades ago. With so much traffic, small problems routinely compound into big ones; a 10-minute delay for one train backs up dozens more, and then tens of thousands of people are kept from their destinations. Every late train bleeds the economy: Executives miss board meetings, tourists don’t spend, hourly workers get a smaller paycheck.

In the last year, Penn Station’s troubles have ripened into gruesome new forms. In April, a rumor spread through the commuter crowds that shots had been fired. People dropped briefcases, phones, and heels in the pandemonium, which spread in part because the station has no coordinated public address system. Alexander Hardy, a Bronx-based writer who was headed to Washington, D.C., watched the stampede, which left 16 people injured, from behind the counter of a Dunkin’ Donuts, where he hid with half a dozen others. “I’m texting my friends to ask what the hell’s happening,” he says. Finally, Amtrak gave the all-clear; there hadn’t been a shooting after all. Hardy stepped out of the doughnut shop. A woman, separated from her child, was screaming. Hardy took a bus to the capital. A few weeks later, a sewage pipe spewed waste onto a heavily trafficked concourse—an honest-to-God $#@!storm. “I’m like, ‘Literally, it’s raining in Penn Station,’ ” recalls Marigo Mihalos, a booking agent from 
New Jersey who witnessed the fecal deluge on her way to work.

After two trains derailed in Penn Station last spring, the railway said it would reduce service by 20 percent during peak hours for eight weeks to do repairs, forcing many commuters to take buses and ferries. New York Governor Andrew Cuomo told his constituents to brace for the “summer of hell.” As the station festers, civic groups and preservationists are renewing their call for elected officials to move Madison Square Garden (non-New Yorkers may not be aware that a 21,000-seat stadium is located directly above Penn Station) and build a new space, cavernous and sunlit. But nothing in the station’s political history or the present-day debate suggests cause for hope.
“The summer of hell? To me, that would be a warm day at the beach compared to the hellfire we would be in if one of those tunnels had to be taken out of service”

As the gateway to America’s largest city, Penn Station should inspire awe, as train stations do in London, Paris, Tokyo, and other competently managed metropolises. Instead, it embodies a particular kind of American failure—the inability to maintain roads, rails, ports, and other necessary conduits. For generations, the officials connected to Penn Station have been blind to, or unable to deliver on, the idea that improving the station would more than pay for itself. (One estimate, from the Business Roundtable, says that a dollar invested in infrastructure yields as much as $3 in economic growth.) In the final days of 2017, the situation reached perhaps its bleakest point yet, when the Trump administration signaled its disinterest in coming to the rescue: The president will not honor an Obama-era commitment to New York and New Jersey to foot half the cost of a new tunnel, dumping planners back at square one.

Penn Station is a debacle reaching across time. Its past is a slow-motion disaster of inaction and canceled reforms, its present an ongoing disgrace. And its future could be truly catastrophic, in the form of a tunnel failure that pinches shut one of the most vital economic arteries in America.

On a hot Saturday in June, Penn is lousy with people trying to exit the city. Outside a McDonald’s that has never known sunlight or fresh air, the sweaty throngs give strange looks to a bearded man in shorts who appears to be remaining in the station voluntarily. His name is Justin Rivers, and he leads $35 tours called Remnants of Penn Station. A dozen or so takers appear for this, his second tour of the day. The first one, Rivers tells the group, ran 20 minutes long because guests couldn’t stop asking questions about the summer of hell. “People are just really interested,” Rivers says. “Penn Station has been in the press almost daily because it’s falling apart.”
His tourgoers are among the many New Yorkers—and others with an interest in urban planning—who know that today’s decrepit facility sits beneath what used to be a gorgeous hall, inspired by the Roman Baths of Caracalla. It was demolished in the 1960s, to the dismay of preservationists. Rivers leads his flock through modern-day Penn, pointing out vestiges of the old place: an original staircase leading down to the tracks; a Long Island Rail Road waiting room; a ghostly, red-lettered sign for the long-gone Pennsylvania Railroad.

As he dodges homeless people and glassy-eyed tallboy vendors, Rivers, who’s also written an off-Broadway play about the original station’s demise, tells the story of Alexander Cassatt, the visionary railroad president who began construction on both Penn and the Hudson tunnels at the turn of the last century. He died before the building opened in 1910, to a crowd of 100,000. In its early days, Penn was the kind of place you might go without a ticket to glimpse stars such as Charlie Chaplin and Mary Pickford boarding the Orange Blossom Special to Florida or the Chicago-bound Broadway Limited.

*But after World War II, the once-powerful rail companies withered as the government built the interstate highways and subsidized air travel. In 1970 the successor to Pennsylvania Railroad declared bankruptcy, and soon the station and its tunnels became the property of Amtrak, the new federal railroad. Perennially underfunded, Amtrak didn’t—and still doesn’t—have much cash to spend on either Penn Station or the tunnels. Instead, says Daniel Baer, senior vice president of the engineering and consulting firm WSP USA, the railroad tends to fix things only when they’re already broken. “Amtrak is in a situation where they’re constantly chasing their tail,” he says.*

The addition of New Jersey Transit trains in the 1990s was both an economic boon to the region—I bought a house in Maplewood, N.J., in 1996 so I could ride the new Midtown Direct to work—and the beginning of Penn Station’s transformation from mere malodorous eyesore to Hieronymus Bosch-grade hellhole. With Jersey commuters swarming the place, farsighted politicians presented grand visions for upgrading it. They all failed.

Vision 1: In the late 1990s, New York Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan raised $350 million to replace Penn with a new station in the building right next to it, an historic post office. (“My dad always said, ‘Only in New York could you knock down a magnificent Beaux Arts masterpiece only to find another one by the same architect across the street,’ ” remembers Maura Moynihan, his daughter.) The effort fell apart after Sept. 11.

Vision 2: In 2008, New York Governor Eliot Spitzer was on the verge of pushing through a multibillion-dollar plan to relocate MSG and renovate Penn into a cathedral-like space. It collapsed with the rest of Spitzer’s political career when he was caught patronizing prostitutes and resigned.

Vision 3: In 2009, New Jersey Governor Jon Corzine put together a fully funded $8.7 billion project for new tunnels—Access to the Region’s Core, or the biblical-sounding ARC. But in a case of extreme political myopia, Corzine’s successor, the White House-eyeing Chris Christie, canceled the plan to keep gasoline taxes low.

Christie’s folly became clear in October 2012. Hurricane Sandy struck the region with 80-mile-an-hour winds, and the water off New York rose higher than at any time in the city’s recorded history. The Hudson River surged over the banks of Manhattan, poured into a submerged railyard, and flooded Penn Station’s venerable tunnels. A few days later, Amtrak pumped out 13 million gallons of seawater from those tubes and two that run beneath the East River. But chemicals had penetrated the walls and begun gnawing away at concrete and power systems that dated to the time of the Orange Blossom Special.

Even after Sandy, a post-ARC construction effort called the Gateway Program languished. At a hearing in Trenton in 2015, Stephen Gardner, an Amtrak vice president, tried to stoke some urgency among legislators by brandishing a fearsome-looking hunk of wire from the tunnels’ malfunctioning electrical system. “Mr. Chairman, this is a portion of the feeder cable that failed,” he said. “These are 1930s-vintage, lead-lined, oil-filled, paper-insulated copper cables, and they do a pretty amazing job. As you can see here, they are quite an antique, and we rely on them every day.” Tom Wright, president of the Regional Plan Association, a local urban policy group, attended the hearing. He was stunned: “I mentioned to Steve afterwards, ‘Jesus, that looks like a set piece from the old Bride of Frankenstein movie.’ He kind of laughed and said, ‘Actually, I think it’s older than that.’ ”

The same month, one of New Jersey’s Democratic senators, Cory Booker, rode through one of the tunnels in a special Amtrak observation car, equipped with floodlights. Booker was shocked to see cracks in the walls. “It was incredibly eye-opening,” he says in an interview, adding that Amtrak officials told him if there were another storm as strong as Sandy, the tunnels might not survive.

“We don’t need a transit temple. We need to focus on the tunnels and getting more tracks into Manhattan”

In the era of climate change, hurricanes are becoming stronger and more frequent. Sandy, as bad as it was, only flooded the Hudson tunnels halfway. A storm that completely inundated the chambers could cause them to crack up from the inside, taking out lighting, radio, and ventilation systems. If the walls were weakened enough, the worst-case scenario could occur: total collapse. In some areas, the tunnels sit just below the riverbed, and William Ryan, a special research scientist at Columbia University’s Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, says there is less sediment there than there used to be. Ryan spent years, starting in the late 1980s, mapping the bottom of the Hudson using echo sounding and reflection profiling. His team found that the 1960s creation of Battery Park City—an expansion of Manhattan island into the Hudson, using landfill from the excavation of the World Trade Center site—altered the way the river flows. As a result, a good part of the silt protecting the train tunnels has been carried off.

The most likely tunnel-disaster scenario, however, requires no storms at all. Amtrak says that within seven years, one of them is likely to have been so weakened by Sandy’s aftereffects that it will have to be taken out of service for at least 18 months’ worth of repairs. “There will come a time when the reliability of the tunnels starts to decay,” says Charles “Wick” Moorman, the co-CEO of Amtrak until the end of 2017. “The curve, once it starts, may be fairly sharp. We’ll just have to see. Nobody knows. This is a great science experiment. Kids playing with chemicals.”

If Amtrak and New Jersey Transit have to rely on a single Hudson tunnel, they could operate just six trains an hour, rather than the current 24. It’s hard to overstate the economic impact that would have on New York City. “The summer of hell?” Booker asks. “To me, that would be a warm day at the beach compared to the hellfire we would be in if one of those tunnels had to be taken out of service.” According to the Partnership for New York City, a group that represents its business community, some 30 percent of Manhattan’s workforce lives west of the Hudson. These commuters could try to cram onto the Port Authority’s PATH trains, which carry 292,000 commuters a day through different Hudson tunnels, but they’re already near capacity. There are always ferries. But does a region that has prided itself on being ahead of the rest of the world truly want to see the large-scale return of a mode of transportation from the 19th century?

Others could drive to work, but the trans-Hudson bridges and tunnels available to cars already have punishing rush-hour delays. Imagine the backups, road rage, and pollution if tens of thousands of additional commuters had to use them. Common Good, a bipartisan government-reform organization, estimates that 50,000 more automobiles crossing the Hudson each day would sap productivity by $2.3 billion per year. And that’s nothing compared with the biggest number of them all. The Northeast Corridor Commission, a panel created by Congress in 2008, projects that the U.S. economy would lose $100 million per day—$36.5 billion a year—if the entire train route from Boston to Washington ever shut down.

In 2015 the governors of New York and New Jersey agreed to a deal on Gateway: The states would pay half the cost of building new tunnels to Penn, and the Obama administration pledged that the federal government would cover the other half. That year and the next, Donald Trump campaigned as the guy who would rebuild America’s crumbling infrastructure, promising a $1 trillion plan to repair roads, bridges, tunnels, the electrical grid, and more. It was possible to think that Penn Station might be saved.

But after Trump was elected, the New York City native dashed those hopes. He eliminated billions in funding for Gateway-related projects in his 2018 budget. And in the waning days of 2017, Trump made it official: His administration would not abide by the Obama-era commitment to pay for half of the new tunnels. K. Jane Williams, deputy administrator of the Federal Transit Administration, sent a curtly worded letter to New York and New Jersey officials that snidely made the deal sound made-up. “We consider it unhelpful to reference a nonexistent ‘agreement’ rather than directly address the responsibility for funding a local project where 9 out of 10 passengers are local transit riders,” she wrote. In the Trump administration’s view, Penn Station’s issues are a distinctly local concern. It’s true that in the Trump era, nothing is ever certain, and the Gateway corpse could reawaken. But it seems unlikely that the current political cast will succeed where so many of their predecessors have failed.
Meanwhile, across the street from the station, work has begun on the renovation of the James A. Farley Post Office building—the Beaux Arts masterpiece Senator Moynihan eyed in the 1990s. Separate from the Gateway project, it’s being converted into a new entrance hall for Amtrak and LIRR trains (and a glassy shopping center) and is scheduled to open in 2020. In August, Cuomo, who’s widely seen as considering a bid for the presidency, held a triumphant press conference at the site that had the feel of a political rally. “At a time when there is confusion in this country, and there is anger in this country, and there’s anxiety and despair, New York is headed in the only direction we know, which is going forward!” he said, slicing the air with his right hand.

But the $1.6 billion Moynihan Train Hall, as it will be known, isn’t likely to significantly reduce congestion, according to NYU’s Moss. Amtrak and LIRR passengers will still be able to access the train complex from the existing Penn Station, which is a block closer to the center of Manhattan. (The Cuomo administration says the impact will be greater.) Moss is among those who scoff at the idea of prettying the upper-level train station experience when what lies beneath is a such mess. “We don’t need a transit temple,” he says. “We need to focus on the tunnels and getting more tracks into Manhattan.”

I don’t frequent Penn Station as much as I used to. My wife and I sold our house in New Jersey in 2016 and moved into Manhattan, just before the commute got infernal. Of course, now we have to deal with the subways. Have you heard? They’re falling apart, too. —With Elise Young

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## nikcers

Bump

----------


## AZJoe

The whole concept of the government trying to keep Amtrak alive as a cross country form of transportation is a failure. 
Cross country train travel is not a comparable alternative to jet travel.
People are not going to prefer train for a four day trip from Phoenix to Atlanta and another four days for the return, when they can purchase airline tickets for the same or lower price that does the same trip in only hours.
People will however take the train in lieu of driving intercity travel.
An Amtrak focus on neighboring intercity travel would be far more popular. Taking an afternoon or morning train from Phoenix to Tucson, or Vegas, or L.A. would be very popular and cost effective.

----------


## Anti Federalist

More interesting news on the restoration front.

Former USSC/FEC #148 was rescued from it's grave in Colorado where it had been rusting away by US Sugar in Florida, where she started her career.

The CEO of USSC decided he wanted to restore one of the original engines of the line, since USSC is the only sugar company that used both standard gauge and still uses trains.

With big corporate money behind it, progress has been quick, productive and promising.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Brand new front truck assembly

----------


## Anti Federalist

Old boiler parts.

Complete new boiler being built at a facility in St. Louis.

----------


## Anti Federalist

148 on NY & LB shore line, in NJ, in 1975 as a "Blue Comet" fill in locomotive, with the legendary Ross Howland at the throttle.

I was there, and, if my memory serves me right, I'm the kid in the lower left of this picture.

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## acptulsa

> Brand new rear truck assembly


That would be her front truck.

Interesting.  They seem to be jacking her whistle up and driving a new one under it.  Will there be enough parts left over to rebuilder her for static display?  Will she be, in fact, a new locomotive?

In any case, she's a beauty, and I love the project!  In many ways, in terms of speed, beauty, appeal, and the easy way they treat the rails, light Pacifics like this are the perfect candidates for restoration and use.  They are rebuilding her so thoroughly, all they would have to do is keep the casting molds and plans and they could build a whole fleet of these.

Here's another shot of that 1975 excursion:

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/13984/

----------


## Anti Federalist

> That would be her front truck.
> 
> Interesting.  They seem to be jacking her whistle up and driving a new one under it.  Will there be enough parts left over to rebuilder her for static display?  Will she be, in fact, a new locomotive?
> 
> In any case, she's a beauty, and I love the project!  In many ways, in terms of speed, beauty, appeal, and the easy way they treat the rails, light Pacifics like this are the perfect candidates for restoration and use.  They are rebuilding her so thoroughly, all they would have to do is keep the casting molds and plans and they could build a whole fleet of these.
> 
> Here's another shot of that 1975 excursion:
> 
> http://www.railpictures.net/photo/13984/


Fixed, thanks, was thinking rear tender truck, but you're right, that is the leading engine truck.

I think the frame, castings, pistons, tender frame and main drivers are all original.

Lots of info here https://www.facebook.com/EngineNo148/

They seem to be restoring not so much for the historical accuracy, but to obtain a running, working, 21st century locomotive that will last another 100 years and be complaint to run on multiple roads.

Reminds me of the Tornado project in the UK.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Manasqan/Pt. Pleasant NJ, looking south, you can see the CG station in the background.

----------


## Anti Federalist

@acptulsa

Get a load of this, just recently posted.

----------


## Anti Federalist

@acptulsa

More from these recently discovered Fox MovieTone newsreels.

1899 "El" traffic with standard gauge Forney locomotives included.

----------


## Anti Federalist

More good news on the Maine 2 foot narrow gauge front.

Bridgeton and Saco River #7, back in steam and under her own power for the first time since 2003.



This engine is owned by the Maine Narrow Gauge Museum in Portland, and is being restored by volunteers in a group effort by MNG, Maine Locomotive Works, Boothbay Railroad Museum and the Wiscasett Waterville and Farmington RR at a facility in Alna, Maine.

https://www.facebook.com/BridgtonSac...FRJs0Z18quo9f8

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## shakey1

very cool!

I know these rails we're on like I know my lady's smile,
We see a dozen dreams in every passing mile.
Can't begin to count the trips she and I have made,
But I wish I had a dollar for each time we've both been down this grade.

And a hundred thousand tons of steel, made to roll.
The brakes don't work and this grade's too steep, her engine's sure to blow.
And a hundred thousand tons of steel, out of control,
She's more a roller coaster than the train I used to know.

It's one hell of an understatement, to say she can't be beat.
She's temperamental, more a bitch than a machine.
She wasn't built to travel at speed or through mud slides.
These wheels are bound to jump the tracks before they burn like the ties

And a hundred thousand tons of steel, made to roll.
The brakes don't work and this grade's too steep, her engine's sure to blow.
And a hundred thousand tons of steel, out of control,
She's more a roller coaster than the train I used to know.

Murphy sure out done himself to pick this stretch of track
I can only hope my luck is ridin' in the back.
Well I have pray to god this ain't the day we meet,
I've done about everything, but try dragging my feet.

And a hundred thousand tons of steel, made to roll.
The brakes don't work and this grade's too steep, her engine's sure to blow.
And a hundred thousand tons of steel, out of control,
She's more a roller coaster than the train I used to know.

Oh, oh I want to go down slow.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Gotta post this of course...

----------


## acptulsa

Very nice to see the Forneys being restored.

The bigger western power takes a bit more of an investment.  Unfortunately, a project near and dear to my heart seems to be hung up in the courts...

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Very nice to see the Forneys being restored.
> 
> The bigger western power takes a bit more of an investment.  Unfortunately, a project near and dear to my heart seems to be hung up in the courts...


That is sadly the fate of too many projects.

The 1309 restoration has come to a grinding halt over lack of funds, mismanagement and poor priority settings amid a bunch of mud slinging and accusations.

https://www.facebook.com/WesternMaryland1309/

Granted, the 2 footers are cheaper, always were, that was their prime selling point.

But the Maine outfits seem much more focused.

----------


## Anti Federalist

1918 or 2018?

----------


## acptulsa

> 1918 or 2018?


Well, it's certainly not 1918 with that Model AA Ford in there.  They didn't come out until 1929.  Oh, sorry, was I not supposed to know that?

The news out west is not all bad either, I'm pleased to say.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Well, it's certainly not 1918 with that Model AA Ford in there.  They didn't come out until 1929.  Oh, sorry, was I not supposed to know that?


Yup, caught.

Another shot of #7

----------


## Anti Federalist

#7 FRA inspection completed, boiler jacket, painting, electrical and brake work done.

Should be in service at Maine Narrow Gauge Musuem within a month, for the rest of the summer.

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Anti Federalist

https://www.facebook.com/mainenarrowgauge/

----------


## enhanced_deficit

While cheapfreedom of movement is not a bad thing, won't having an efficient train system between cities be very bad for auto insurance, big auto, big oil industries that create many jobs ( probably as many jobs as those created from militant weapons industries)?

----------


## acptulsa

> While cheapfreedom of movement is not a bad thing, won't having an efficient train system between cities be very bad for auto insurance, big auto, big oil industries that create many jobs ( probably as many jobs as those created from militant weapons industries)?


And...?  Who cares if companies that are that deeply in bed with the government suffer?

Hey, AF.  Did you ever hear of the streamlined Forneys?



This was part of the same program that brought us the _Flying Hamburger._

----------


## Origanalist



----------


## Swordsmyth



----------


## acptulsa



----------


## Anti Federalist

That idiot Cortez broad is going to set back the cause of private, market driven passenger rail, back 100 years or more.

----------


## acptulsa

Their leading ends are pivots on all but the very earliest.






> Trailing wheels first appeared on American locomotives between 1890 and 1895, but their axle worked in rigid pedestals. It enabled boilers to be lowered, since the top of the main frames was dropped down behind the driving wheels and under the firebox. The firebox could also be longer and wider, increasing the heating surface area and steam generation capacity of the boiler, and therefore its power. The concept was soon improved to provide radial lateral movement by placing the pair of trailing wheels and their axle in a fabricated sub-frame or truck, usually with outside bearings as they gave the best lateral riding stability. One-piece cast-steel trailer trucks were developed about 1915, to provide the additional strength for a booster engine to be fitted to the trailing axle. Finally, about 1921 the Delta trailing truck was developed with an inverted-rocker centering device at the rear ends of the truck frame. Delta trucks were soon enlarged to carry four trailing wheels, and later six.


https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Trailing_wheel

On certain Berkshires, Texas types and others, the trailing truck was actually a hinged section of the frame, like the forward ends of articulated locomotives.

----------


## acptulsa

Why do they call people who want government to do everything "progressives"?  Government is the most regressive entity in the world!

Not only has government pushed NYC-Chicago passenger train speed back from 1938 speeds to 1902 speeds, the government just managed to strand a train in the snow for days--for the first time since 1952!

This is _not_ progress.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Why do they call people who want government to do everything "progressives"?  Government is the most regressive entity in the world!
> 
> Not only has government pushed NYC-Chicago passenger train speed back from 1938 speeds to 1902 speeds, the government just managed to strand a train in the snow for days--for the first time since 1952!
> 
> This is _not_ progress.


I was going to comment on that myself.

----------


## acptulsa

> I was going to comment on that myself.


Between driving schedules back a hundred ten years, reaching a level of incompetence in dealing with heavy weather last seen sixty-seven years ago, and turning the nation's first attempt at 200 mph running into a quagmire of unabated and unabashed corruption, the governments of California and the U.S. have really turned back the clock in many ways.

In many others, they make us wish we _could_ turn back the clock.

If progressives really loved trains the way they claim to, they'd take them away from the government and do it yesterday!

----------


## acptulsa

A sight not seen, and a sound not heard, for half a century.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> A sight not seen, and a sound not heard, for half a century.


That is just freaking *incredible*.

Uncle Pete and the boys in the steam shop deserve a freaking medal.

Well done!

I had heard that first class, dome car tickets for the first excursions are going for $5000.00

All of Cheyenne heard this, when 4014 got her voice back.

at 7:02

----------


## acptulsa

85 ft 3.4 in long.  11 ft wide.  16 ft 2 1⁄2 in high.  762,000 lbs.  Her boiler holds 300 lbs. per square inch.  She has four cylinders, each with a 23.75 in bore and a 32 in stroke.  She should produce 6,290 hp @ 41 mph.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Not to be outdone, back east we have:

*Western Maryland lays out timetable for final 1309 restoration push*

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire...storation-push

By Jim Wrinn | February 27, 2019

CUMBERLAND, Md. — Western Maryland Scenic Railroad’s contractor on the restoration of Chesapeake & Ohio 2-6-6-2 No. 1309 on Wednesday laid out a timetable that leads to the engine’s debut for the long July 4 weekend. 

Gary Bensman in a video interview with Western Maryland Scenic Executive Director John Garner said his crew is focused on piping on the boiler and plans to install the rear engine in March, the front engine in April, and have the engine testing in May. 

The boiler was test fired last September but reassembly work was slowed while suppliers reproduced parts that went missing in a theft of items belonging to the engine. 

The $2.6 million project was delayed multiple times as the cost of the project grew from an early $800,000 estimate and funding lagged behind. Work resumed last spring, but was hampered after it was discovered that a former railroad employee had stolen and scrapped critical parts. 

On Tuesday, the John Emery Rail Heritage Trust awarded the project $40,000. 

If this timetable holds, No. 1309 will hit the rails about the same time Union Pacific sends newly restored Big Boy No. 4014 on its inaugural voyage in May.

When restoration is complete, No. 1309 will be the only operating compound-mallet type locomotive east of the Mississippi River. A 1309 Club has been created to find 200 donors interested raising money to finish the engine. 

To help, see, www.wmsr.com/support-co-1309-restoration/

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## ATruepatriot

> 85 ft 3.4 in long.  11 ft wide.  16 ft 2 1⁄2 in high.  762,000 lbs.  Her boiler holds 300 lbs. per square inch.  She has four cylinders, each with a 23.75 in bore and a 32 in stroke.  She should produce 6,290 hp @ 41 mph.


I wonder how many Foot pounds of torque? a 17 HP agriculture steam traction engine can produce like 2,000 Ft pounds of torque or more.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> 85 ft 3.4 in long.  11 ft wide.  16 ft 2 1⁄2 in high.  762,000 lbs.  Her boiler holds 300 lbs. per square inch.  She has four cylinders, each with a 23.75 in bore and a 32 in stroke.  She should produce 6,290 hp @ 41 mph.


I'm heading down to Maryland this summer, to get some pics and video and take a ride.

You heading out west?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I wonder how many Foot pounds of torque? a 17 HP agriculture steam traction engine can produce like 2,000 Ft pounds of torque or more.


The C & O 1309 Mallet produces 98,700 ft-lbs.

I reckon 1404 is similar.

Both of these massive Mallet engines were both designed and built for the same purpose: to haul massive, 200 plus car consists of coal over the mountain passes.

----------


## ATruepatriot

> The C & O 1309 Mallet produces 98,700 ft-lbs.
> 
> I reckon 1404 is similar.
> 
> Both of these massive Mallet engines were both designed and built for the same purpose: to haul massive, 200 plus car consists of coal over the mountain passes.


Thank you. I always found it interesting how much more torque steam produces compared to horsepower. Torque is the where the true power is at.

----------


## Anti Federalist

More 1404 "Big Boy" underway footage.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Conway Scenic 7470 back in service.

----------


## acptulsa

Progressives have dragged us into the nineteenth century:  The dining car to disappear from government trains.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/th...AAHE3Xs#page=2

Step one:  Airline food.  Step two:  Stops at roach coaches.  Because the way to entice people onto the most environmentally-friendly mode of travel is to make it just as uncivilized as every other mode of travel.

And still people drive hours just to ride in a circle on dinner trains--provided the government doesn't operate them.




Why do programmers tell autocorrect to replace hyphens with gibberish?  Does anyone know?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Progressives have dragged us into the nineteenth century:  The dining car to disappear from government trains.
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/th...AAHE3Xs#page=2
> 
> Step one:  Airline food.  Step two:  Stops at roach coaches.  Because the way to entice people onto the most environmentally of fiend my mode of travel is to make it just as uncivilized as every other mode of travel.
> 
> And still people drive hours just to ride in a circle on dinner trains--provided the government doesn't operate them.


FFS...Anthrax.




> killing the traditional dining car to create more “flexible” and “contemporary” dining options.


Like you said, people will line up and pay top dollar to dead head around in a circular dinner train.

I reckon that most people traveling long distance by train are there because they don't particularly *care* about flexibility and being contemporary.

Tradition, on the other hand...




> Step one: Airline food. Step two: Stops at roach coaches. Because the way to entice people onto the most environmentally of fiend my friendly mode of travel is to make it just as uncivilized as every other mode of travel


Step Three: TSA strip searches.

That is *just* what transportation has become...uncivilized...uncouth...badly mannered.

All modes...including driving.

Idiocracy.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Speaking of: they just moved N&W 611 to Strasbourg, for FRA inspections, then to pull tourist excursions and dinner trains through the fall.

IIRC that is one of Lowey's designs as well.

----------


## Anti Federalist

*Tories Promise Half a Billion to Reopen Railways They Closed 50 Years Ago*

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/201...-50-years-ago/

OLIVER JJ LANE 15 Nov 2019

Boris Johnson’s Conservatives have said they want to “banish the shadow” of wholesale railway closures and demolitions by spending £500 million on reopening old routes, but neglected to mention it was their party which closed them in the first place. Meanwhile, the Labour Party want to blight the railway network with outright nationalisation.
The new election giveaway was announced by Transport Secretary Grant Shapps on Friday morning when he revealed the enormous impact on regional and local communities of the British government’s destructive programme of branch line railway closures in the 1950s and ’60s.

Invoking the name of the British industrialist commissioned by the government to write a report on the future of the railways — Imperial Chemical Industries chairman Dr Richard Beeching — Shapps wrote: “Let’s banish the shadow of Beeching and restore those connections that made our country great and brought our people together.”

Illustrating the scale of the disaster visited upon the United Kingdom by closing the railways, Shapps said: “The fifth of the country most exposed to closures between 1950 and 1980 saw 24 per cent less population growth than the fifth least exposed.”

Yet what the Conservative minister failed to illustrate in his announcement, and what the story in the Tory-supporting Daily Telegraph published to accompany the half-billion-sterling giveaway failed to mention, is that these closures were the work of a Conservative government.

While the railway professionals who had built and run Britain’s railways as private enterprises understood that while local lines were loss-making when viewed in isolation, they fed passengers into the greater trunk routes and helped keep the railway as a whole working efficiently and profitably.

This subtlety was lost by the Conservative government of Harold Macmillan after the railways had come under increasing state control, and his administration decided it wanted to rationalise the railways — cutting the network of roots that supported the metaphorical tree.

While Dr Beeching went down in history as the name damned by association with the infamous “axe” that swung on Britain’s railways, his report was commissioned and its findings enthusiastically leapt upon by Conservative government minister Ernest Marples.

Why Marples, a self-made millionaire whose company built motorways for the government would have been so passionate about shutting down newly nationalised mass transit systems in favour of the government spending huge amounts of taxpayer’s money on building brand-new motorways, is a mystery which has been lost to history.

Better remembered, perhaps, was his sensational fly-by-night escape abroad to tax haven Monaco, to escape prosecution over unpaid taxes and several outstanding lawsuits, in 1975.


Brisitsh Conservative Party politician and Minister of Transport Ernest Marples (1907-1978) adjusts a flower in the buttonhole of his suit jacket in front of a crowd of construction workers as he prepares to open a new stretch of the M2 motorway from junction 2 at Rochester to junction 5 at Maidstone in Kent on 29th May 1963. (Photo by Topham/Daily Express/Hulton Archive/Getty Images)

While reopening historic closed lines — notably connecting towns where the Conservatives defend narrow constituency majorities — may be a vote winner, the actual execution may prove difficult. The former railway land released when old lines were shut proved extremely popular with developers. Consequently, many town-centre shopping areas, supermarkets, industrial parks, and housing estates are built on the acres of land that suddenly became available in prime locations when former railway stations and shunting yards were demolished.

Delivering convenient local rail services to areas where they are actually wanted — in town centres rather than in out of town so-called “parkway” stations which generally rely on cars or other public transport to access — could therefore make projects prohibitively expensive or politically impossible.

In the rare cases of new rail projects already embarked upon across the United Kingdom in recent decades, a mixture of disinterest from central government, massive cost overruns and delays have been common features. Turning to light rail, which generally costs significantly less per mile, could be cost-effective for connecting local communities it is not immune from the cost and time drags that impacts so many major public projects.

While the Conservatives are ignoring their own record on railways, the Labour party’s headline election promises on rail are certainly worse. The party’s hard-left leader Jeremy Corbyn is once again pushing his ambition to totally renationalise the railways. Quite apart from the enormous upfront cost, Britain’s previous experience of nationalised railways were overwhelmingly negative.

Beyond leaving the railway network under the care of the government, whose interest in actually running railways blows in the wind and in the past it at times neglected and in others actively undermined, passenger numbers were in freefall for the entire period of government intervention leading to outright nationalisation.

In a remarkable contrast that pro-nationalisation activists have yet to answer for, passenger numbers suddenly and massively surged from the moment Britain’s train operating companies were privatised in the 1990s, and continue to rise today.

A Brexit party source, for their part, noted their continued — if at times unsung — role in driving the key narratives of the election, noting that the key areas being debated this week including investing in regional railways and enhancing the nation’s broadband connectivity were party policies months ago.

----------


## acptulsa

> I'm heading down to Maryland this summer, to get some pics and video and take a ride.
> 
> You heading out west?


East.



Not quite twenty miles

----------


## Anti Federalist

> East.
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite twenty miles


Outstanding...!

----------


## acptulsa

> Outstanding...!


They weren't working her hard, under 40.  Nice clean stack.  They seemed to have the diesel shut off.  She has a pretty whistle.

The locals who hadn't heard were sure confused why state highway 88 was lined with miles of parked cars.

----------


## Brian4Liberty

Without government, who will build the great high speed rail in California?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> They weren't working her hard, under 40.  Nice clean stack.  They seemed to have the diesel shut off.  She has a pretty whistle.
> 
> The locals who hadn't heard were sure confused why state highway 88 was lined with miles of parked cars.


I envy your experience...maybe someday I'll get out west to see for myself.

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Anti Federalist

US SUGAR #148

https://www.facebook.com/USSugarFL/v...739899733/?t=7

Good - Fast - Cheap

Nice to see they picked good and fast.

Did a gorgeous job.

Here's what she looked back in the 1970s, with Russ Howland at the throttle, next town over from where I grew up.

----------


## acptulsa

> 


What does he have to do with this thread?  He was also a businessman, and these were his business:



It amazes me how little love abolitionists are getting these days.  It seems that particular part of history doesn't fit The Narrative.

You can't set people at each other's throats by telling how one once worked to help the other.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> It amazes me how little love abolitionists are getting these days.  It seems that particular part of history doesn't fit The Narrative.
> 
> You can't set people at each other's throats by telling how one once worked to help the other.


One of the reasons that the "all whites have a racist virus" trope grates on my nerves.

Half the family on my grandmother's side were all abolitionist Quakers.

Some going so far as to renounce their Quakerism and pacifism and actively fight in Federal forces.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Speaking of Matthew Baldwin...



Western Maryland Scenic Railroad
· Paid Partnership · June 10 ·


The last Baldwin Locomotive built for use in the United States has once again been placed upon its wheels. This is the first time that both engines have been joined together since leaving the B&O Museum in Baltimore. If you would like to contribute to the 1309 restoration, consider a donation via www.wmsr.com/1309/, we’ll see you soon!

----------


## Origanalist



----------


## Anti Federalist

US Sugar did a fabulous restoration job of FEC 148

----------


## acptulsa

The last run of the Union Pacific "City of Everywhere", April 30, 1971

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## acptulsa

For @Anti Federalist







https://vimeo.com/312913178

----------


## Anti Federalist

> For @Anti Federalist
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://vimeo.com/312913178


LOL - Be careful of the Indians out west near Trenton.

----------


## acptulsa

> LOL - Be careful of the Indians out west near Trenton.


I believe that working reproduction of Stephenson's _Rocket_ was built for the Centennial of the Iron Horse.  The Baltimore and Ohio was the first common carrier in the U.S, so when their centennial came up they invited all railroads to help them celebrate.

And since the steam locomotive appeared in both the U.S. and Britain within three years, it got celebrated too.

----------


## acptulsa

https://vimeo.com/11643754

I love how it stops _before_ the station for the photographers, then blasts _through_ the station.

----------


## Occam's Banana

> https://vimeo.com/11643754
> 
> I love how it stops _before_ the station for the photographers, then blasts _through_ the station.


For Vimeo videos, use the [vimeo] tags (not the [video] tags) to enclose the video code in the URL (not the whole URL).

Like so:

URL: https://vimeo.com/11643754
Video code from URL: 11643754
Vimeo tags: [vimeo]11643754[/vimeo]
Embedded Vimeo video:

----------


## acptulsa

The Kansas City Southern has been swallowed by CP Rail, formerly known as the Canadian Pacific, soon to be known as CPKC.



Because the KCS got itself some Mexican trackage since the last time the Mexican government nationalized the railroads, this is being touted as, "The First U.S.M.CA. Railroad".

https://www.railwayage.com/freight/c...railroad-cpkc/

----------


## Anti Federalist

Wiscasset, Waterville & Farmington Railway Museum

Thanks you

Dear Anti Federalist,

The WW&F Railway has a 30-year history of accomplishment that has gained it recognition around the country and abroad. An important part of that success has been the willingness of its members and friends to contribute financially.

*Our current project, the construction of a reproduction of WW&F No. 7, presents us with a unique challenge. Your recent donation moves us closer to the day when the new locomotive, to be WW&F No. 11, steams for the first time. More importantly, your contribution brings the dream held by so many of our supporters, members and friends and perhaps even yourself, a reality!*

Thank you for helping us Rebuild Maine History!

Updates for the Build 11 Project will be posted on the 11th of each month on the WW&F's Facebook page, on the Build 11 FundRazr campaign page at http://build11.wwfry.org, and at www.wwfry.org. Please feel free to contact the museum with any questions.

Here's the campaign:

Build 11 - Building Steam in 2021 - Help Rebuild Maine History!

by Wiscasset, Waterville & Farmington Railway Museum

$7,121 raised · $50,000 goal

The WW&F Railway seeks your support to build locomotive #11 - a reconstruction of the road's original #7, scrapped in the 1930's. 

This project will teach long-lost industrial skills, and provide a new steam locomotive to further the museum's mission. 



View campaign

----------


## acptulsa



----------


## Anti Federalist

Good god...

----------


## acptulsa

Another lockdown casualty: Mt. Ranier Scenic.

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/staff/arc...-railroad.aspx



Speaking of Forneycation (not really) they had one of the few remaining Climax locomotives.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Another lockdown casualty: Mt. Ranier Scenic.
> 
> http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/staff/arc...-railroad.aspx
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of Forneycation (not really) they had one of the few remaining Climax locomotives.


That's a damn shame.

I hope an investor "angel" comes in to save that.

We have one of the last Climaxes as well at Clark's Trading Post in NH.




Clark's also has a very rare Hiesler, sadly not in service.

----------


## acptulsa

They, too have? had? a static Heisler.

----------


## Anti Federalist

@acptulsa

*Amtrak Drops $7.3 Billion On Eco-Friendly Trains*

https://www.dailywire.com/news/amtra...riendly-trains

By  Ben Zeisloft • Jul 10, 2021   DailyWire.com

Amtrak is spending $7.3 billion on hybrid power trains.

The taxpayer-subsidized rail company is contracting with Siemens, which will manufacture the eighty-three trains in Sacramento, California.

According to Amtrak’s press release:

    The latest trains will feature more comfortable seating, individual power outlets and USB ports, onboard Wi-Fi, enhanced lighting and panoramic windows, larger vestibules, a more contemporary food service experience, including self-service options, as well as state-of-the-art customer trip information, digital seat reservation system and navigation display systems. The trains were designed with the latest health and safety standards, including enhanced HVAC, touchless restroom controls, and automated steps.

Amtrak touted the trains’ multi-power systems, which will permit “a substantial environmental benefit through reduced criteria pollutants compared to the existing fleet.”

“These new trains, some of which will be our first hybrid battery operations in the United States, will transform the way Americans travel,” remarked Siemens executive Michael Cahill. “Over the past decade, we’ve worked closely with Amtrak and its state partners to develop and deliver trains that meet the needs of America’s travelers, these next generation trainsets build on that experience and offer much more.”

“Based right here in Sacramento for 30 years, this Siemens facility is one of the largest such plants on the continent and one of the most sustainable, and this new contract cements California’s leadership in clean transportation and reducing carbon emissions,” added Gov. Gavin Newsom (D-CA).

Throughout his four decades in the Senate, President Biden frequently advocated for increases in funding to Amtrak. Since his inauguration, the Commander-in-Chief has stressed a desire to promote green energy within the rail service. 

As he stated during a celebration of Amtrak’s fiftieth anniversary in April: 

    And, as I’ve said from the beginning, when I think about fighting climate change, I think about jobs. And rail and hopefully the expansion of rail provides good union jobs, good-paying jobs. It also connects people to jobs and economic opportunities that can be reached from wherever you live. 

Accordingly, the American Jobs Plan — President Biden’s $2.7 trillion infrastructure bill — contains multiple provisions that would increase spending on climate change solutions. For instance, the legislation suggests allocating “$35 billion in the full range of solutions needed to achieve technology breakthroughs that address the climate crisis and position America as the global leader in clean energy technology and clean energy jobs.”

On his first day in office, President Biden nixed the contract for the Keystone XL Pipeline, which would have transported over 800,000 barrels of oil per day from Alberta to refineries on the Texas Gulf Coast. He subsequently promised green energy jobs to the thousands of Americans who lost positions.

----------


## acptulsa

Siemens is getting their money's worth.

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/sie...?id=D000042425

----------


## acptulsa

Let's hear from some people who were making (a little) money in the passenger train business in 1971:

Santa Fe's then head of public relations, Bill Burk: '(ATSF president John) Reed didn't want anyone running passenger trains across Santa Fe but Santa Fe. Those trains were the pride and joy of the railroad--the pride and joy of the nation, as far as he was concerned.' So why did they join Amtrak? Because they weren't allowed to drop the unpopular services that very, very few people cared about and which lost money. Even after Amtrak was announced and everyone knew the government didn't really think we couldn't get along without these unpopular services because Amtrak had no intention of running them, the roads weren't allowed to drop them. The government wouldn't run them, but was still insisting that private enterprise do so. Huh? Vital or not?

Same with the newly merged Seaboard Coast Line. It's chairman, Tom Rice, had recently told a Congressional subcommittee, 'We have some fine trains that we operate in through service, which we think are just the finest int he land. And we like them. We don't get rich on them, but we get by.' When he had to join, he remarked that it 'broke my heart'. 'It was amazing to see the demise of it.'

Of course, not every railroad felt that way. The Southern Pacific's Russell, for instance, was ruining the service on profitable trains to drive away passengers so he could show the ICC how much it was losing and get rid of it. Why, when he was famous for being a 'passenger watchdog' not long before, and for supporting anything that made the road a profit? Because if he didn't, he reasoned, he'd be forever getting rid of them if and when they ceased to be profitable.

As for the Southern Railway's William Brosnan and his lieutenant (and later his replacement) W. Graham Claytor, Jr., they were famous for using every trick in the book to be rid of unpopular trains. The came up with some interesting loopholes. The Southern didn't join Amtrak. Why, if they hated passenger trains so much? Who says they did? Once they got down to the popular trains by creatively bypassing or forcing the hand of the ICC, they were happy to run the profitable trains they had left. The government didn't like it, though--the Southern went from a passenger hauler of mediocre reputation to the people who ran the finest train in the nation. Amtrak could not come up with one train that was more of a pleasure to experience.

And now? Hard to say. On the one hand, Amtrak has so spoiled the experience for so many, trains are far less popular than they otherwise would be. On the other, Amtrak has so spoiled the experience for so many that people almost don't consider them trains, therefore if someone introduces a nice train people could well consider that something brand new to try. Basically, the continuity is broken, and decent intercity service in the twenty-first century is completely untried.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> And now? Hard to say. On the one hand, Amtrak has so spoiled the experience for so many, trains are far less popular than they otherwise would be. On the other, Amtrak has so spoiled the experience for so many that people almost don't consider them trains, therefore if someone introduces a nice train people could well consider that something brand new to try. Basically, the continuity is broken, and decent intercity service in the twenty-first century is completely untried.




Use the cruise ship model.

Ultra luxury to travel to nowhere in particular.

The Japanese are doing it right now.

----------


## acptulsa

> Use the cruise ship model.
> 
> Ultra luxury to travel to nowhere in particular.
> 
> The Japanese are doing it right now.


But let private enterprise do it.  Because, you know, government just can't help rationing food for no reason.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> US Sugar did a fabulous restoration job of FEC 148


For those railfans in the South Florida area, US Sugar has completed the passenger car restorations and is offering their first public excursion trains pulled by FEC/US Sugar 148.

*FIRST PASSENGER EXCURSION ANNOUNCED*

http://sugarexpress.com/2021/11/firs...santa-express/

On December 12th, Sugar Express will operate the very first public passenger excursion behind steam locomotive no. 148 between Clewiston and Lake Placid, Florida.

“We’re very excited to give people the opportunity to ride aboard a steam-powered passenger train in the South Central Florida region, and this trip is just a preview of the wide variety of events we’re exploring with the Sugar Express as we build up our passenger train fleet. Future events like this will no doubt drive tourism and interest in the rich culture of the Glades communities and we’re proud to be a part of that effort,” said Ogle.

This day-long roundtrip includes accommodations in either deluxe coach and open-air passenger cars with a scheduled departure from Clewiston at 10 AM and return at approximately 4 PM. Passengers will enjoy a trip through the Florida countryside, a layover in downtown Lake Placid for lunch on their own, with a return to Clewiston later that same day.

Ticket sales will begin at sugarexpress.com on Tuesday, November 23rd at 6 PM. A limited number of tickets will be available at sugarexpress.com. Tickets start at $148.00 and light refreshments are included. Parking and boarding for the trip will take place at Basillian Cres and South Deane Duff Avenue, Clewiston, Florida.

----------


## acptulsa



----------


## Anti Federalist

> For those railfans in the South Florida area, US Sugar has completed the passenger car restorations and is offering their first public excursion trains pulled by FEC/US Sugar 148.
> 
> *FIRST PASSENGER EXCURSION ANNOUNCED*
> 
> http://sugarexpress.com/2021/11/firs...santa-express/
> 
> On December 12th, Sugar Express will operate the very first public passenger excursion behind steam locomotive no. 148 between Clewiston and Lake Placid, Florida.
> 
> “We’re very excited to give people the opportunity to ride aboard a steam-powered passenger train in the South Central Florida region, and this trip is just a preview of the wide variety of events we’re exploring with the Sugar Express as we build up our passenger train fleet. Future events like this will no doubt drive tourism and interest in the rich culture of the Glades communities and we’re proud to be a part of that effort,” said Ogle.
> ...


Word around the campfire is that they sold out in six hours.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> 


Not only would the Safety Nazis have a fit but so would the Sanitary NKVD

----------


## Anti Federalist

*Amtrak Expects to Temporarily Slash Service over Biden Vaccine Mandate*

https://www.breitbart.com/health/202...ccine-mandate/

JOSHUA CAPLAN 9 Dec 2021

Amtrak expects to temporarily cut some service next month as it warns of possible labor shortages due to the Biden administration’s coronavirus vaccine mandate which requires employees of government contractors to be fully jabbed by January 4th.

Bloomberg News reports:

As Amtrak prepares to comply with the federal vaccine mandate, it will likely need to temporarily reduce frequency, particularly on its long-distance services, Stephen J. Gardner, president of Amtrak, said in written testimony for a House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee hearing. About 94% of the rail company’s workers have been fully vaccinated as of this week. […] The problem is most acute on multi-day routes, where crew bases at some intermediate points have relatively lower rates of vaccinated employees.

“Achieving full service levels, while complying with the vaccination requirement and continuing to prioritize the safety of our customers and employees, is our goal,” Gardner testified.

Some Republican lawmakers expressed frustration with the impending labor shortages due to the vaccine mandate.

“Amtrak just got about $60 billion in new funding, but now President Biden’s vaccine mandates are spurring new worker shortages and service cuts, thwarting recovery from historic Amtrak losses last year,” Rep. Sam Graves (R-MO) stated. “Taxpayers will be paying more money for less service.”

In addition to the mandate, Amtrak faces a staffing crunch due to a lack of human resource managers tasked with hiring new employees, according to the company’s Office of Inspector General report published Thursday.

Amtrak hopes to boost its workforce by over 2o% through October 2022.

----------


## Occam's Banana



----------


## acptulsa



----------


## Anti Federalist

I'll scan it when I get a chance, my daughter gave a me a railroad book from 1975 on the Mountain Division line here in NH.

They had a bunch of schedules printed in the book, and in 1944 you could take the Boston and Maine RR's _"Mountaineer"_, a Budd built streamliner originally called the _"Flying Yankee"_ from Boston to Conway NH in about 30 minutes less than what it takes to drive today.

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## acptulsa

Biden's massive new boondoggle plan for Amtrak will mean a huge change in the very mature of the beast.  It will enter an arena it was never in before--intrastate service.




> It shows an array of potential new service lines: new rail connecting all of Texas' biggest cities and new connections across the Midwest, including between Cincinnati, Columbus, Ohio, and Cleveland.





> "Prospects for a passenger rail line connecting Baton Rouge and New Orleans got a boost this week," wrote the New Orleans Advocate, noting that the last passenger train to serve Baton Rouge, La., ended service in 1969.


If that isn't enough of a wealth transfer from poor states to rich states to suit you, you'll love this tidbit:




> Biden's $2 trillion infrastructure package has two provisions involving passenger rail: $85 billion to modernize public transit (commuter rail, buses, stations, etc.)


https://www.npr.org/2021/04/06/98446...people-talking

Taking money from South Dakota to subsidize bus service in the wealthiest cities in the nation.  Tenth Amendment, anyone?

I haven't seen any word on whether they'll officially rewrite Amtrak's charter, or just ignore it.

----------


## Anti Federalist

*D.C. Transit Authority ‘Actively Looking into’ Mask-Only Cars*

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...ask-only-cars/

HANNAH BLEAU 13 May 2022

The Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (WMATA) is reportedly considering implementing mask-only cars, pending concerns over the possible ramifications of mask enforcement.

In April, Metrorail, Metrobus and MetroAccess made masks optional due to the ruling from a Trump-appointed federal judge in Florida, who deemed the Biden administration’s federal mask rule illegal. As a result, the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) suspended enforcement. 

“Our mask mandate has been based on federal guidance,” General Manager and Chief Executive Officer Paul J. Wiedefeld said at the time.

“We will continue to monitor this situation as it unfolds, but masks will be optional on Metro property until further notice,” he said. 

But during a board meeting Thursday, Chief Safety Officer Theresa Impastato confirmed WMATA is looking into the possibility of a mask-only car. 

When asked if such was being considered, Impastato said, “That is something that we’re actively looking into.”

“We’ve benchmarked and talked to New Jersey transit who are also looking into a mask only,” she said, explaining that they have some concerns over mask enforcement. 

“We do have some concerns that have been identified around enforcement of the mask-only car and how that could potentially create conflict amongst our customers,” she said. “The quiet car [on Amtrak] has a pretty storied history of having some conflict there.”

According to DCist, safety concerns remain the primary issue as officials struggle with the fear that such enforcement would cause a rise in violence or assault:

WMATA is having to balance other several health and safety concerns. The injury rate for Metrorail employees is 3.7 per 100 people, and 13 per 100 people for Metrobus employees, as of the current fiscal year to date. Assaults and threats are the most common injury, accounting for one-third. Impastato said injuries among Metrorail employees were particularly high in the winter months, during a time when many were out sick with COVID-19 and those working reported more overtime.

“We believe it had a lot to do with mental health issues, where at one point customers were not getting their medicine, not getting their treatment they needed, and coming on board and that led to altercations not only with our bus operators but our customers,” Chief Operating Officer Joseph Leader said of the rise of assaults.

While no statewide mask mandates remain in place and travelers are no longer under the Biden administration’s federal mask mandate, mask rules have not been completely eradicated.  Some school districts and cities have demonstrated that they are more than willing to put rules back in place over fears of a rise of the virus.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Hard to blame Anthrax for this one I suppose.

Sounds like the dump track may have dodged the gates or ignored the signals.


*3 Killed, Dozens Injured in Amtrak Train-Truck Crash in Missouri*

https://www.breitbart.com/news/3-kil...s-in-missouri/

AP 27 Jun 2022

MENDON, Mo. (AP) — A passenger train traveling from Los Angeles to Chicago struck a dump truck and derailed Monday in a remote, rural area of Missouri, killing three people and injuring dozens more, officials said.

Two of the people who died were on the Amtrak train and one was in the truck, Missouri State Highway Patrol spokesman Cpl. Justin Dunn said. It was not immediately clear exactly how many people were hurt, the patrol said, but hospitals reported receiving more than 40 patients from the crash and were expecting more.

Amtrak’s Southwest Chief was carrying about 243 passengers and 12 crew members when the collision happened near Mendon at a rural intersection on a gravel road with no lights or electronic controls, officials said. Seven cars derailed, the Highway Patrol said.

It’s too early to speculate on why the truck was on the tracks, said National Transportation Safety Board Chairwoman Jennifer Homendy. A team of NTSB investigators will arrive Tuesday, she said. Trains won’t run be able to run on the track for “a matter of days” while they gather evidence, she added.

At one point, helicopter video of the site from KMBC-TV in Kansas City showed rail cars on their side as emergency responders used ladders to climb into one of them. Six medical helicopters parked nearby were waiting to transport patients.

Close to 20 local and state law enforcement agencies, ambulance services, fire department and medical helicopter services responded, Dunn said. The first emergency responders arrived within 20 minutes of receiving a 911 call, he said.

Passenger Robert Nightingale, owner of an art gallery in Taos, New Mexico, said he was dozing off in his sleeper room when the crash happened.

“Everything started to go in slow motion,” he told CNN, describing how the train rocked before tumbling onto its side.

Nightingale was able to climb out of the side of the rail car.

“We all just sat there shocked,” he said.

Other passengers on the train included 16 youths and eight adults from two Boy Scout troops who were traveling home to Appleton, Wisconsin, after a backcountry excursion at the Philmont Scout Ranch in New Mexico. No one in the group was seriously injured, said Scott Armstrong, director of national media relations for the Boy Scouts of America. The Scouts administered first aid to several injured passengers, including the driver of the dump truck, Armstrong said.

High school students from Pleasant Ridge High School in Easton, Kansas, who were headed to a Future Business Leaders of America conference in Chicago, were also aboard, Superintendent Tim Beying told The Star.

It was the second Amtrak collision in as many days. Three people were killed Sunday afternoon when an Amtrak commuter train smashed into a car ín Northern California, authorities said.

The Southwest Chief takes about two days to travel from Los Angeles to Chicago, picking up passengers at stops in between. Mendon, with a population of about 160, is about 84 miles (135 kilometers) northeast of Kansas City.

----------


## acptulsa

No gates, no signals, no action by the government.

https://www.kansascity.com/news/stat...262969938.html




> In March 2021, a small group of men met at a rural railroad crossing in northern Missouri that locals had long been complaining about because of its steep grade and lack of visibility. A farmer leading the effort to improve the crossing was among those who gathered at the Porche Prairie Avenue Crossing southwest of Mendon. All three Chariton County commissioners were there, along with a safety official with the Missouri Department of Transportation and a representative from a local engineering firm. In the wake of Monday’s deadly Amtrak derailment that killed four people and injured 150, last year’s meeting at the crossing has taken on new meaning and importance. Not only for the desperate call to fix and improve the crossing but also for the fact that no one did. “We had high hopes that something was going to get done there,” said Paul Speichinger, a Chariton County farmer, who wasn’t at the meeting but has complained about the crossing over the years. “We really hoped and anticipated that we’d have something done last fall, and the commissioners have been on the officials to get something done. “But it fell on deaf ears.” In fact, their efforts ran into a wall of state bureaucracy, The Star has found. That meeting at the crossing last year did possibly prompt the state, in July 2021, to place the crossing high on its priority list to make it safer. But that didn’t mean the fix would come anytime soon. Unbeknownst to the community, because of budget constraints and the slow pace of government projects, any safety improvements would still have been years away. Although residents complained about the crossing for years, BNSF Railway, the railroad that owns the track, told The Star that the Missouri Department of Transportation had not — even up to the day of the crash — contacted them to conduct an official review of the site that is required before any repairs are initiated. “I can tell you that we have not been contacted over this crossing to work on a diagnostic review,” said BNSF spokeswoman Lena Kent. “That is a critical step of this process to move forward. “You can’t just, you know, have somebody out there say, ‘Hey, I think we need gates,’ and the next day we show up with some gates. That’s not how that works. You have to go through that process.” The Missouri Department of Transportation has authority over public railroad crossings and runs the state’s railroad safety program. A MoDOT spokeswoman confirmed that although MoDOT alerted BNSF earlier this year that the crossing has been put near the top of its priority list to be fixed, the agency had not yet contacted the railroad to conduct a review of the site. “It was approved last July (as a priority) and our staff reached out,” MoDOT spokeswoman Linda Wilson Horn said Tuesday of BNSF. “The diagnostic review has not been scheduled yet.”


But without government, who will forbid us to fix the roads?

----------


## acptulsa



----------


## acptulsa

Ever wonder why some coal hopper cars have a colored stripe painted up one end?

----------


## acptulsa

DP

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Ever wonder why some coal hopper cars have a colored stripe painted up one end?


Coal...

It really is the perfect fuel when you think about how many ways it can be moved and dumped and transported and stored with a minimum of fuss and a maximum of efficiency, considering it's energy density.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> 


That's adorable...

----------


## Anti Federalist

Finally scratched a trip to Cass Mountain Scenic RR in WV off my bucket list.

Went with my daughter last Friday as a side trip on the way home from a week camping at DollyWood.

Weather was perfect, crowds were thin...a perfect day.

Railfans and steam enthusiasts...this is a "must do" trip. Seriously, there is no place in the world you will see vertical engine shaft locomotives working hard, pushing up mountain grades, as they were intended to, except for here.

Five Stars.

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## acptulsa



----------


## pcosmar

> Who says I don't like EVs?
> 
> I wasn't positive but now this film confirms it, I rode behind some of them while still in service on NJ Transit.


It was watching Trains that finally Convinced me..

Diesel is just Generator,,all Motive Power is electric.

a more efficient Generator/Electrical system would not be a bad thing.

https://www.wattfuelcell.com/portabl...watt-imperium/

----------


## acptulsa

> all Motive Power is electric.


Not yet, thank God.

----------


## pcosmar

> Not yet, thank God.


I heard one once,,laying on a cell bunk.

Eire 

Most freight is diesel electric these days.

----------


## acptulsa

> Most freight...


Thank God for that one incorrigible nonconformist in Iowa.

----------


## Anti Federalist

This one slipped right past me.

Reading "Northern" #2102 was restored to full service this year.

You can see why the "Road of Anthracite" kept Phoebe's gowns so white.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Michael Palin of "Monty Python" fame is by far and away one of my favorite travel show hosts.

Here's an early 1980 show of his on trains.

Missed this one, just watched it.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Can't get any more "Small Town America" than this...

----------


## Anti Federalist

What in the $#@! did we do wrong?

(yes, I know...rhetorical...the answers are numerous and we know them all.)

They got the date wrong as well...this is around 1950 to 1955 I'd say.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Damn...what the hell are we doing wrong.

The Soviets ran better trains than Anthrax.

----------

