# Think Tank > Political Philosophy & Government Policy >  Forget Immigration. It's Big Government Hispanic Voters Want

## LibertyEagle

> If we are to believe the polls, Hispanic voters love big government.  Just adore it.  They want more of it.  Lots more.  And they will vote to make that happen.
> 
> Pundits are currently tying themselves into knots trying to figure out how the presidential candidates' positions on immigration will impact their popularity with Hispanic voters.
> 
> The answer?  Who cares?  What drives Hispanic voters is simple, and it was captured with shocking clarity by a Pew Hispanic Center poll in April. 
> 
> A mind-blowing 75 percent of Hispanics tell Pew they want bigger government with more services.  Contrast that with just 41 percent of the American public that says it wants bigger government with more services.  (Some 45 percent of the general American population wants smaller government with fewer services.  For Hispanics, it's 19 percent.)


read the rest...

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## Schifference

Most people look to government for the answer.

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## timosman

The big government is happy to oblige.

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## Danke



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## CaptUSA

The trick, I am convinced, is to change the discussion from, "what government does _for_ you" to "what government does _to_ you".

As long as we're arguing the former and not the latter, we will always lose.  Regardless of which racial demographic you choose.

(socio-economic factors play a much larger role than race when determining where a majority will land.  But yes, some peoples share more of those socio-economic factors than others.)

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## Yieu

The question I have to those that this bothers, is what are you going to do about it?  Win more hearts and minds in general, or collectivize and complain?

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## Tywysog Cymru

Why is Trump the least popular Republican among Hispanics?  He wants to grow government more than any of the others.

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## AuH20

> Why is Trump the least popular Republican among Hispanics?  He wants to grow government more than any of the others.


because he said 'mean' things about their transients.

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## PierzStyx

> The trick, I am convinced, is to change the discussion from, "what government does _for_ you" to "what government does _to_ you".
> 
> As long as we're arguing the former and not the latter, we will always lose.  Regardless of which racial demographic you choose.
> 
> (socio-economic factors play a much larger role than race when determining where a majority will land.  But yes, some peoples share more of those socio-economic factors than others.)


This si the key. Look, it shouldn't be hard to actually turn Mexicans (and other Hispanics) into fans of smaller governments. They're already fleeing countries that have been crippled by big government socialism. You just have to help them see that. Help them see the violence done to their families and communities by the government, there and here. If you do that, you'll win converts by the number. 

As it is, all people like LibertyEagle suggest doing is violating the basic human right of movement across unowned land, investing the government with unconstitutional powers, expand protectionism and limit the free market, destroying families, and enlarging the state's ability to carry out violence against peaceful people for victimless crimes. That isn't just unlibertarian and collectivist, it is down right fascistic. And anyone that thinks that somehow protects liberty or makes them better than the statists we all detest, is delusional.

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## PierzStyx

> because he said 'mean' things about their transients.


People have natural human rights to be transients.

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## donnay

> People have natural human rights to be transients.


So long as you pay your club dues.

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## AuH20

> People have natural human rights to be transients.


Purge their benefits and the concept of birthright citizenship & then I will agree. Until then, the door should be closed.

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## Son_of_Liberty90

There's the group LIBRE that tries to spread free market principles to the hispanic community

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## LibertyEagle

> As it is, all people like LibertyEagle suggest doing is violating the basic human right of movement across unowned land, investing the government with unconstitutional powers, expand protectionism and limit the free market, destroying families, and enlarging the state's ability to carry out violence against peaceful people for victimless crimes. That isn't just unlibertarian and collectivist, it is down right fascistic. And anyone that thinks that somehow protects liberty or makes them better than the statists we all detest, is delusional.




Does the globalist need a safe space?

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## PierzStyx

> Purge their benefits and the concept of birthright citizenship & then I will agree. Until then, the door should be closed.


That isn't how freedom works. Liberty comes before the state, before the government. You have no right to dictate the beliefs of others. The fact that you want to force others to live and think like you makes you a tyrant.

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## PierzStyx

> Does the globalist need a safe space?


I noticed you have no really come back to what I said.

Also, your accusation is fallacious. Imaging that the only two choices are slavery to the nation or slavery to the superstate is a false dichotomy. Liberty, as always, is the answer. 

And it has nothing to do with globalism. Indeed, for the first 100 years of the existence of the USA it had no border restrictions and open immigration and it was hardly a globalist conspiracy. 

But if you're arguing which is more important, human liberty or you using the violence of the state to create a "safe" space for your beliefs because you are so damn afraid that they won't work and the only way they will survive is by forcing people to comply with them, then liberty wins every time.

That is the ultimate irony in your accusation. You are literally trying to create a space (a nation) to protect your beliefs (hence a "safe space") using the violece of the state to punish those who think and act differently than you.

You're a Leftist.

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## AuH20

> That isn't how freedom works. Liberty comes before the state, before the government. You have no right to dictate the beliefs of others.* The fact that you want to force others to live and think like you makes you a tyrant.*


Oh the irony. Yes, I'm the unreasonable one. That's me. 



See that burnt orange block that says '82%'? There lies the wave of freedom that's coming.

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## jmdrake

And Trump said he wants to expedite the process for millions of Hispanic voters to legally come to this country.  Gotta love betrayal.

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## CCTelander

> I noticed you have no really come back to what I said.
> 
> Also, your accusation is fallacious. Imaging that the only two choices are slavery to the nation or slavery to the superstate is a false dichotomy. Liberty, as always, is the answer. 
> 
> And it has nothing to do with globalism. Indeed, for the first 100 years of the existence of the USA it had no border restrictions and open immigration and it was hardly a globalist conspiracy. 
> 
> But if you're arguing which is more important, human liberty or you using the violence of the state to create a "safe" space for your beliefs because you are so damn afraid that they won't work and the only way they will survive is by forcing people to comply with them, then liberty wins every time.
> 
> That is the ultimate irony in your accusation. You are literally trying to create a space (a nation) to protect your beliefs (hence a "safe space") using the violece of the state to punish those who think and act differently than you.
> ...



"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to PierzStyx again."

I wish I could +rep this post a thousand times. Bravo!

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## PierzStyx

> Oh the irony. Yes, I'm the unreasonable one. That's me. 
> 
> 
> 
> See that burnt orange block that says '82%'? There lies the wave of freedom that's coming.


Trouble I'm having is seeing how you're any different. You're demanding big government military force and border violence to violate the basic human rights of people and destroy their families over a victim less crime. No matter what you say you want, or imagine you want, the result is big government statist Leftisim. You're the same as any of the others. Maybe we should kick you out too. After all, you want to do away with birthright citizenship. So just because you live here doesn't mean we should allow your violent big government beliefs to violate our national "safe space."

That is another silly thing about immigration fascists. By your own arguments you shouldn't be allowed to stay here either.

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## presence

> That is another silly thing about immigration fascists. By your own arguments you shouldn't be allowed to stay here either.


winner winner chicken dinner

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## phill4paul

> Trouble I'm having is seeing how you're any different. You're demanding big government military force and border violence to violate the basic human rights of people and destroy their families over a victim less crime. No matter what you say you want, or imagine you want, the result is big government statist Leftisim. You're the same as any of the others. Maybe we should kick you out too. After all, you want to do away with birthright citizenship. So just because you live here doesn't mean we should allow your violate big government beliefs to violate our national "safe space."
> 
> That is another silly thing about immigration fascists. By your own arguments you shouldn't be allowed to stay here either.


  But, but, it's just reality. We're not going to get rid of the welfare state so we must increase the size of government to stop people from getting welfare! It boggles the mind.

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## AuH20

> But, but, it's just reality. We're not going to get rid of the welfare state so we must increase the size of government to stop people from getting welfare! It boggles the mind.


Do you want to kill federal judges? because that's the only way the welfare stops. They have us boxed in and I refuse to let them destroy what's left.

 Keep them out. The statists ruined their chance at a better life, not I. We could have had open borders but no. They had to arrange Supreme Court rulings granting them medical treatment and schooling. They had to contort the meaning of the 14th amendment in regard to birth citizenship. 

Screw em now with a capital 'S.' They drew first blood with the state multiple times and have violated the NAP too many times to count. Now they think that they are going to use our principles against us for the final death blow?

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## phill4paul

> Do you want kill federal judges? because that's the only way the welfare stops.


    I could, honestly, do without them and get along just fine.

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## AuH20

> I could, honestly, do without them and get along just fine.


I'm illustrating how far down the tracks this plan has gotten, that we are literally forced to keep them out. We can't defund their subsidies through the courts nor can we can we rebottle the 14th amendment to it's original meaning.

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## fedupinmo

> This si the key. Look, it shouldn't be hard to actually turn Mexicans (and other Hispanics) into fans of smaller governments. They're already fleeing countries that have been crippled by big government socialism. You just have to help them see that. Help them see the violence done to their families and communities by the government, there and here. If you do that, you'll win converts by the number. 
> 
> As it is, all people like LibertyEagle suggest doing is violating the basic human right of movement across unowned land, investing the government with unconstitutional powers, expand protectionism and limit the free market, destroying families, and enlarging the state's ability to carry out violence against peaceful people for victimless crimes. That isn't just unlibertarian and collectivist, it is down right fascistic. And anyone that thinks that somehow protects liberty or makes them better than the statists we all detest, is delusional.


Letting more of them in so they can vote for bigger government for us is working out fantastic...

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## AuH20

> Letting more of them in so they can vote for bigger government for us is working out fantastic...


It's a foolproof plan. Really.

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## AZJoe



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## AuH20

> 


Nomadic locusts. It's really sad how pathetic human beings are, in that they will spread their stupidity to other parts of the planet.

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## dannno

> And Trump said he wants to expedite the process for millions of Hispanic voters to legally come to this country.  Gotta love betrayal.


It's not betrayal until he actually does something. Maybe he is just courting centrists.

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## The Gold Standard

Guess what? It's big government that white voters want too.

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## CCTelander

> This si the key. Look, it shouldn't be hard to actually turn Mexicans (and other Hispanics) into fans of smaller governments. They're already fleeing countries that have been crippled by big government socialism. You just have to help them see that. Help them see the violence done to their families and communities by the government, there and here. If you do that, you'll win converts by the number.



This times about a billion. ^^^

I'd say over and over and over again until it actually sinks in, but, since I've been suggesting exactly this to anti-immigrant conservatives since about the mid 1970s, and I've never managed to get it to sink in to any of their heads, I sincerely doubt that it ever will.

If what you're actually trying to sell is liberty, you couldn't ask for a market more tailor made for your product than immigrants. But, in my experience, there's almost no interest, especially among conservatives of various stripes, in reaching out to that market. Hell, they could have been growing the ranks of the so-called liberty movement with millions of immigrants for decades now. But make the suggestion and it's nothing but crickets. Suggest publishing liberty related literature in Spanish to make it easier for immigrants to assimilate and the most common response is something along the lines of "If they're going to come to our country, they damn well ought to learn our language!"

It seems like a great many conservatives and various other stripes of "liberty" advocates would rather let the progressives woo and win them than do the actual work of reaching out and helping to educate them. Sad and pathetic, really.





> As it is, all people like LibertyEagle suggest doing is violating the basic human right of movement across unowned land, investing the government with unconstitutional powers, expand protectionism and limit the free market, destroying families, and enlarging the state's ability to carry out violence against peaceful people for victimless crimes. That isn't just unlibertarian and collectivist, it is down right fascistic. And anyone that thinks that somehow protects liberty or makes them better than the statists we all detest, is delusional.



Agreed.

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## MelissaWV

> Guess what? It's big government that white voters want too.


Yep.  But RPFs has become a place where it's easier to blame a gender, race, religion, or culture for the current situation.

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## AuH20

> Yep.  But RPFs has become a place where it's easier to blame a gender, race, religion, or culture for the current situation.


Nope. We assess blame on the dominant white majority (who voted for the two boobs described below) of the past, but by the same token we don't acquiesce to the devious social engineering scheme that's currently playing out.

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## otherone

> Nomadic locusts. It's really sad how pathetic human beings are, in that they will spread their stupidity to other parts of the planet.


well said.

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## Anti Federalist

> Nomadic locusts. It's really sad how pathetic human beings are, in that they will spread their stupidity to other parts of the planet.


Anybody who has been Californicated in their home state, or surrounded by Massholes, or flooded by Half Backs, knows this is the case.

I'm pretty sure the point of no return has already been passed however.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> People have natural human rights to be transients.


So what is your address?

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## CCTelander

> This si the key. Look, it shouldn't be hard to actually turn Mexicans (and other Hispanics) into fans of smaller governments. They're already fleeing countries that have been crippled by big government socialism. You just have to help them see that. Help them see the violence done to their families and communities by the government, there and here. If you do that, you'll win converts by the number.





> This times about a billion. ^^^
> 
> I'd say over and over and over again until it actually sinks in, but, since I've been suggesting exactly this to anti-immigrant conservatives since about the mid 1970s, and I've never managed to get it to sink in to any of their heads, I sincerely doubt that it ever will.
> 
> If what you're actually trying to sell is liberty, you couldn't ask for a market more tailor made for your product than immigrants. But, in my experience, there's almost no interest, especially among conservatives of various stripes, in reaching out to that market. Hell, they could have been growing the ranks of the so-called liberty movement with millions of immigrants for decades now. But make the suggestion and it's nothing but crickets. Suggest publishing liberty related literature in Spanish to make it easier for immigrants to assimilate and the most common response is something along the lines of "If they're going to come to our country, they damn well ought to learn our language!"
> 
> It seems like a great many conservatives and various other stripes of "liberty" advocates would rather let the progressives woo and win them than do the actual work of reaching out and helping to educate them. Sad and pathetic, really.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> 


Because of their cultural
Because of their IQ
Because of they are not punished for having failed views.

If you keep them out of the nation, you keep them out of economy, culture, workplaces, schools, prisons, hospital,  elections, and ballot boxes. 

If you keep them out of the nation you keep them out of our elections..

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> And Trump said he wants to expedite the process for millions of Hispanic voters to legally come to this country.  Gotta love betrayal.



And what speech did you listen to?

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> This times about a billion. ^^^
> 
> I'd say over and over and over again until it actually sinks in, but, since I've been suggesting exactly this to anti-immigrant conservatives since about the mid 1970s, and I've never managed to get it to sink in to any of their heads, I sincerely doubt that it ever will.
> 
> If what you're actually trying to sell is liberty, you couldn't ask for a market more tailor made for your product than immigrants. But, in my experience, there's almost no interest, especially among conservatives of various stripes, in reaching out to that market. Hell, they could have been growing the ranks of the so-called liberty movement with millions of immigrants for decades now. But make the suggestion and it's nothing but crickets. Suggest publishing liberty related literature in Spanish to make it easier for immigrants to assimilate and the most common response is something along the lines of "If they're going to come to our country, they damn well ought to learn our language!"
> 
> It seems like a great many conservatives and various other stripes of "liberty" advocates would rather let the progressives woo and win them than do the actual work of reaching out and helping to educate them. Sad and pathetic, really.
> 
> 
> ...


We tried to reach out, they want "free stuff". this is not hard to understand that they only know and only want marxism as it rewards them with our wealth for no effort on their part.

Most of them can not read Spanish as they are illiterate. More of a reason to keep them out.

"
No one has the right to move to a free country and destroy its freedom. But this is precisely what happens when people who are unused to the political culture of individual liberty, or who disapprove of it, swing the balance of national decisions.

Many libertarians imagine that all economic and political problems will be solved if only the proper economic and political framework is established: free enterprise, limited government, clear recognition of individual rights. But the question is, How can such a framework, such a “house,” be preserved? It can’t be preserved if people must continually be convinced, by the tens of millions, that liberty is a good idea, better than the welfare state or some structure of political repression and intolerance. It can be preserved only by a culture in which the vast majority of people assume that individual liberty and responsibility are the ultimate political good. Not every culture makes these assumptions.

There is no foreign army occupying Mexico, Canada, or Saudi Arabia. The political systems, the political errors, of these countries are the result of their own political cultures, just as America’s political errors result from its own political culture. An essentially libertarian political system must be supported by essentially libertarian cultural assumptions, by a culture in which virtually no one sees a cartoon satirizing a religious figure and immediately concludes, “Somebody should be punished for this.”

Yet that is the automatic assumption of many, perhaps most, of the people in this world. In most political cultures, practically no one assumes that there is any difference between “what is right” and “what ought to be enforced by law.” In most of the remaining cultures, a majority of people assume that the welfare of individuals is the responsibility of the state. Both sets of assumptions are inimical to a free society; and while some immigrants from the cultures that harbor them come to America in order to escape from them, the majority are inspired by other reasons. The fact that they desire to possess the economic benefits of America does not mean they appreciate the social conditions that allow those benefits to exist, or that they will work to maintain them."

Stop projecting your views onto other people, some do not want freedom, do not value Liberty and will use both to destroy yours if you give them a chance,

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## MelissaWV

> We tried to reach out, they want "free stuff". this is not hard to understand that they only know and only want marxism as it rewards them with our wealth for no effort on their part.
> 
> Most of them can not read Spanish as they are illiterate.





> Because of their cultural


Oh and "Hispanic =/= Illegal"... but RPFs already knew that, it was just ignoring it.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> Oh and "Hispanic =/= Illegal"... but RPFs already knew that, it was just ignoring it.


So when did you start making strawmen? 

No, Hispanic culture is largely the same in the way of politics, the same collectivism mindset with a large side dish of Collective salvation thanks to Catholicism 

And shockingly large numbers of people South of the border are illiterate, but please change the subject, deny the facts at hand.

They do not share our values, culture, politics, and most likely never will, we have ever right to protect ourselves and keep them out.

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## MelissaWV

> So when did you start making strawmen? 
> 
> No, Hispanic culture is largely the same in the way of politics, the same collectivism mindset with a large side dish of Collective salvation thanks to Catholicism 
> 
> And shockingly large numbers of people South of the border are illiterate, but please change the subject, deny the facts at hand.
> 
> They do not share our values, culture, politics, and most likely never will, we have ever right to protect ourselves and keep them out.


It isn't a straw man.  "They" are made up of a number of cultures, some of which actually lean quite Conservative.  Your mistake is twofold.  First, you are talking about "people South of the Border" as being the sum total of Hispanics, and second you are discussing illegals and Hispanics interchangeably.  

I quoted you because I always find it amusing when someone accuses someone else of being illiterate while having difficultly with their (presumably) native language.

So yes, while you have "ever right" to protect yourself from people coming here illegally, I can't help but notice the title indicates this thread is about "Hispanic voters."  What will you do to protect yourself against Hispanics who are here legally?

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> It isn't a straw man.  "They" are made up of a number of cultures, some of which actually lean quite Conservative.  Your mistake is twofold.  First, you are talking about "people South of the Border" as being the sum total of Hispanics, and second you are discussing illegals and Hispanics interchangeably.  
> 
> I quoted you because I always find it amusing when someone accuses someone else of being illiterate while having difficultly with their (presumably) native language.
> 
> So yes, while you have "ever right" to protect yourself from people coming here illegally, I can't help but notice the title indicates this thread is about "Hispanic voters."  What will you do to protect yourself against Hispanics who are here legally?



Which ones lean Conservative? If they were the case why is it nothing but marxism and its bastard offspring South of the Border ?


No you just read into things that are not there, a large number of illegals are Hispanic

Those who can not make an argument, talk about grammar.


Keep them out of the nation to begin with so they can never cast a vote against us. If you keep them out of the nation, you keep them out of the ballot box.

With a fence, no more welfare, no more birthright ciztenship, and greatly limited immigration (think 1924) we will cut off the flow from Latin America, factor in deportations both government led and self induced and its a bright future.

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## Zippyjuan

> It isn't a straw man.  "They" are made up of a number of cultures, some of *which actually lean quite Conservative.*  Your mistake is twofold.  First, you are talking about "people South of the Border" as being the sum total of Hispanics, and second you are discussing illegals and Hispanics interchangeably.  
> 
> I quoted you because I always find it amusing when someone accuses someone else of being illiterate while having difficultly with their (presumably) native language.
> 
> So yes, while you have "ever right" to protect yourself from people coming here illegally, I can't help but notice the title indicates this thread is about "Hispanic voters."  What will you do to protect yourself against Hispanics who are here legally?


Hispanics are 90% Catholic.  They are far more likely to be church going than whites.   They support family values, and are anti- abortion.

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## Danke

> Hispanics are 90% Catholic.  They are far more likely to be church going than whites.   They support family values, are pro-gun and anti- abortion.


That's why they vote Democratic.

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## Zippyjuan

If one is worried about how hispanics vote, consider this:  http://www.pewhispanic.org/2014/10/1...erm-elections/



And they have the lowest voter turnout:

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## Danke

Never does answer the questions that are posted in response to the bull$#@!. Just post more bull$#@!.

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## BamaAla

> That's why they vote Democratic.


I lol'd

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## Zippyjuan

> Never does answer the questions that are posted in response to the bull$#@!. Just post more bull$#@!.


Thank you for answering the questions.

Interesting thing I found at the link. 




> *At 40.1%, New Mexico* has the highest Latino eligible voter share, followed by *Texas* (27.4%),* California* (26.9%), *Arizona* (20.3%) and *Florida* (17.1%).


Which of those states are Red and which are Blue? Is it the Hispanic voters? Only one (California) considered Blue.  Florida mostly purple (could go either way).


Using figures for percent of eligible voters and voter turnout rates I calculate that about seven percent of the votes in the 2012 presidential election were by Hispanics while they had twelve percent of registered voters. White voters accounted for 73% of votes cast with 69% of registered voters.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> Thank you for answering the questions.
> 
> Interesting thing I found at the link. 
> 
> 
> 
> Which of those states are Red and which are Blue? Is it the Hispanic voters? Only one (California) considered Blue.  Florida mostly purple (could go either way).
> 
> 
> Using figures for percent of eligible voters and voter turnout rates I calculate that about seven percent of the votes in the 2012 presidential election were by Hispanics while they had twelve percent of registered voters. White voters accounted for 73% of votes cast with 69% of registered voters.


Dont worry, that number will get very small thanks to deportation, the wall, limited immigration very soon, dont worry.

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## otherone

> Dont worry, that number will get very small thanks to deportation, the wall, limited immigration very soon, dont worry.


gonna be tough deporting voters, but possible if you're really determined:

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## tod evans

> Guess what? It's big government that white voters want too.





> Yep.  But RPFs has become a place where it's easier to blame a gender, race, religion, or culture for the current situation.


'Some' people just flat out refuse to acknowledge that government is doing what's best for government and they'll keep crying to government to do more...

At least here on RPF lots of folks get that government isn't going to fix itself..

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## MelissaWV

> Most of them can not read Spanish as they are illiterate. More of a reason to keep them out.






> Those who can not make an argument, talk about grammar.


Yep, still amusing.

I also did not say anything to provoke a response of "most illegals are Hispanic."  It just demonstrates how off the mark you are.  Are most Hispanics illegals?  If not, then please answer the question of how you would revoke/restrict the votes of Hispanics who are here legally, which are included in the thread topic?




> Which ones lean Conservative? If they were the case why is it nothing but marxism and its bastard offspring South of the Border ?


More of the same:  is there even any benefit to point out that not all of "Them!" are from South of the Border?  Or even across any border?  

The race over to Big Government is not some stampede led by invaders.  It's been going on for years, incited by the increasingly attractive bait the Government is setting out (at our expense).  The only counter is work ethic, ingenuity, and an ability to persevere even after the Government piranha has taken a massive chunk out of your income, lest you actually climb up to the ranks of the decision makers.  A lot of people are refusing to play that game anymore, which is pointless since the Government will keep on playing, depending on idiots to generalize and point fingers at one another all the while.

Thanks for doing your part on that one.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> gonna be tough deporting voters, but possible if you're really determined:


We deport immigrates so they will not later become citizens IE voters.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> Yep, still amusing.
> 
> I also did not say anything to provoke a response of "most illegals are Hispanic."  It just demonstrates how off the mark you are.  Are most Hispanics illegals?  If not, then please answer the question of how you would revoke/restrict the votes of Hispanics who are here legally, which are included in the thread topic?
> 
> 
> 
> More of the same:  is there even any benefit to point out that not all of "Them!" are from South of the Border?  Or even across any border?  
> 
> The race over to Big Government is not some stampede led by invaders.  It's been going on for years, incited by the increasingly attractive bait the Government is setting out (at our expense).  The only counter is work ethic, ingenuity, and an ability to persevere even after the Government piranha has taken a massive chunk out of your income, lest you actually climb up to the ranks of the decision makers.  A lot of people are refusing to play that game anymore, which is pointless since the Government will keep on playing, depending on idiots to generalize and point fingers at one another all the while.
> ...


Once again you are creating strawmen, the data shows that their are tens of millions of illegals most from Latin America, the facts prove this.

No it is a stampede being led by the left, they know they have lost the argument so they are stacking the deck with welfare voters.

But hey, please play the "I am morally superior card" and ignore the facts at hand as the left imports more and more future voters.

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## RonPaulIsGreat

Had a big ole post, then decided it didn't matter. 

Fact is we are going full left in the near future, no stopping it. Even if you think immigrants over time will become more conservative, that takes generations if past history is a guide. We don't have 40 years. We don't have 10 years. This is the most conservative the country will ever be for decades. So, enjoy what's left while it lasts. The trend is overwhelmingly in the lefts favor. They control the schools, they have millions of new leftist voters via immigration, they if Hillary wins(highly probable) will control the supreme court, they control most of the media. If Hillary wins, the flood gates will be opened, and there is 0.0% chance a conservative will be elected in 4 years. None. Don't even bother with politics, it's prepare for Venezuela style government.

The right controls NOTHING outside of some businesses, and we seem to squabble over everything, the left is very on message. I'm guessing the left's strength disgusting as it is, is it's propensity to group think. One only has to look at the lefts position in relation to BlackLivesMatter a "movement" based on a complete fiction, yet they embrace the dead criminals mothers on stage at the DNC. It would be lol funny if it didn't expose completely the lefts total disregard for facts and total submission to the popular lie of the era. 


Trump by the way is far left on some issues. Universal Healthcare anyone! Yeah, that'll just absorb another 10% of the economy under government control.  So, even the "conservative" candidate is a leftist on a huge issue. We drifted a lot already.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Dont worry, that number will get very small thanks to deportation, the wall, limited immigration very soon, dont worry.


So you are going to deport citizens?  (only citizens can vote).

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Once again you are creating strawmen, *the data shows that their are tens of millions of illegals* most from Latin America, the facts prove this.
> 
> No it is a stampede being led by the left, they know they have lost the argument so they are stacking the deck with welfare voters.
> 
> But hey, please play the "I am morally superior card" and ignore the facts at hand as the left imports more and more future voters.


Millions coming every year!  Or not.

----------


## timosman

> Hispanics are 90% Catholic.  They are far more likely to be church going than whites.   They support family values, and are anti- abortion.


LOL. Have you met a catholic girl from Mexico?

----------


## RonPaulIsGreat

> Millions coming every year!  Or not.


So, if those were all legalized, that would be around 3% of the vote.

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> So you are going to deport citizens?  (only citizens can vote).


WE have told you that illegals are voting in our elections, you deny this is but it is still true.

We deport people before the dems can give them ciztenship, end bright right citizenship (no more anchor babies), prevent more from coming into the nation to begin with, but way to take the idea out of context.

----------


## otherone

> _We_ deport immigrates so they will not later become citizens IE voters.


lol.  "we".

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> Millions coming every year!  Or not.


And we have told you those numbers are wrong. Your lies have no power here.

----------


## Danke

Hiispanics:
2008 Barack Obama, 67% John McCain, 31% +36
2012 Barack Obama, 71% Mitt Romney, 27% +44


When one considers that the battleground states for the upcoming election cycle are expected to be Florida, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona, and Colorado (all of whom have a heavy Latino voting block), 2016 could shape up to be a watershed year for Latino voters.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> And we have told you those numbers are wrong. Your lies have no power here.


Show me "real" numbers.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> WE have told you that illegals are voting in our elections, you deny this is but it is still true.
> 
> We deport people before the dems can give them ciztenship, end bright right citizenship (no more anchor babies), prevent more from coming into the nation to begin with, but way to take the idea out of context.


You claimed it but had no proof of it actually happening. Arizona looked at every reported case of voter fraud in every election since 2005.  They found two examples of immigrants voting.  Out of over a billion ballots cast.  http://archive.azcentral.com/news/po...raud-rare.html




> But when state officials are pushed for details, the numbers of actual cases and convictions vary and the descriptions of the alleged fraud become foggy or based on third-hand accounts.
> 
> An examination of voter-fraud cases in Maricopa County shows those involving illegal immigrants are nearly non-existent, and have been since before the changes to voter-ID requirements were enacted in 2004.
> 
> In response to an Arizona Republic records request, the Maricopa County Attorneys Office provided a list of 21 criminal cases *since January 2005* in which the suspect was charged with a felony related to voter fraud. A search of court records found 13 other cases.
> 
> Of the 34 Maricopa County cases,* two of the suspects were in the country illegally and 12 were not citizens but living in the U.S. legally, court records showed. One of the suspects legal-residency status was unclear from the records.
> 
> The non-citizens came from around the world  Indonesia, Canada, Mexico, Yugoslavia, the Philippines and Thailand. Most had been living legally in the U.S. for decades. Several stated in court documents that they thought they were permitted to vote because they were legal permanent residents of the United States.*
> ...

----------


## Danke



----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> Hiispanics:
> 2008 Barack Obama, 67% John McCain, 31% +36
> 2012 Barack Obama, 71% Mitt Romney, 27% +44
> 
> 
> When one considers that the battleground states for the upcoming election cycle are expected to be Florida, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona, and Colorado (all of whom have a heavy Latino voting block), 2016 could shape up to be a watershed year for Latino voters.


The overall numbers of Hispanics that vote is overall and turn out is not that high to begin with.

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> You claimed it but had no proof of it actually happening. Arizona looked at every reported case of voter fraud in every election since 2005.  They found two examples of immigrants voting.  Out of over a billion ballots cast.  http://archive.azcentral.com/news/po...raud-rare.html



http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybens...orida-n1811547

http://www.truthandaction.org/suprem...u-s-elections/

http://www.capoliticalreview.com/cap...mit-they-vote/

13% of illegals admit they vote illegally....

----------


## nobody's_hero

The funny thing about statistics is that there is never a shortage of sources to validate one's predisposed beliefs. That goes for anyone who pulls out sources.

Just state your opinions. We aren't writing thesis papers here. People are ultimately only going to believe what they want to believe anyway.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybens...orida-n1811547
> 
> http://www.truthandaction.org/suprem...u-s-elections/
> 
> http://www.capoliticalreview.com/cap...mit-they-vote/
> 
> 13% of illegals admit they vote illegally....


Article claiming that the Supreme Court rejecting voter ID laws means it is legal for illegal immigrants to vote?

----------


## Zippyjuan

Latest statement by Ron Paul on immigration:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...Should-Be-Done

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> Latest statement by Ron Paul on immigration:
> 
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...Should-Be-Done


He had his chance, his plans do not stop this maddness.

----------


## Zippyjuan

When did he get his chance?

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> When did he get his chance?


His chance in Congress, his chance when he ran for the White House, he did not attack the media, his universal approach sank him.

----------


## Zippyjuan

One lone congressman doesn't have much power to change things by himself. But you don't think Ron Paul's ideas should be considered in the future, eh?

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> One lone congressman doesn't have much power to change things by himself. But you don't think Ron Paul's ideas should be considered in the future, eh?


So you are telling me voting habit and trends limit the power of groups, people and ideas, but adding in tens of millions of people who will vote against your group, ideals, goals will make it harder if not impossible to archive?

They were considered and implemented, the end result was an open border, mass immigration (legal and illegally) and the hell it either created (Trans national Narco gangs, Islamic Terrorist groups inside of America, the massive police state/spy state that is required to "fight it") or exacerbated (poverty, crime, disease, stagnate/falling wages, increase in the cost of living,). 

We tried it your way, it does not work, and we are going to dowhat works. 

Walls
No welfare (do not tell me they do not get any Juan, the facts prove you wrong) for them or their kids
No work permits (you need work done? Pay Americans or automate it)
No more mass immigration
No more Birthright citizenship to illegals

----------


## Zippyjuan

Walls were tried.  Ancient China.  Berlin. Israel.  California/ Arizona border with Mexico.  They don't stop things.  They don't solve problems. Ron Paul can tell you that.




> Islamic Terrorist groups inside of America


Most Islamic terrorists in the US have turned out to be citizens.  Others like the 9/11 terrorists were in the country legally.  Won't stop any of those. 




> the massive police state/spy state that is required to "fight it"


You are suggesting we expand significantly on that.  




> or exacerbated (poverty, crime, disease, stagnate/falling wages, increase in the cost of living,).


Is that why crime has been going down for decades- all those criminal immigrants flooding in?  



Poverty? 



You are being sold a bill of goods to reduce your freedoms, expand the scope and size of government, and lower your wages through higher taxes to pay for all of it.

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> Walls were tried.  Ancient China.  Berlin. Israel.  California/ Arizona border with Mexico.  They don't stop things.  They don't solve problems. Ron Paul can tell you that.









Ron Paul is wrong, Walls do work you are just a liar.





> Most Islamic terrorists in the US have turned out to be citizens.  Others like the 9/11 terrorists were in the country legally.  Won't stop any of those.


That is also not true.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ed-terror.html

Maybe we should stop importing them. 





> You are suggesting we expand significantly on that.


No Islam, not need for a spy/police state, yet you want to import Islam, and allow anyone to walk on over.



> Is that why crime has been going down for decades- all those criminal immigrants flooding in?  
> 
> 
> 
> Poverty? 
> 
> 
> 
> You are being sold a bill of goods to reduce your freedoms, expand the scope and size of government, and lower your wages through higher taxes to pay for all of it.


Correlation does not equal causation, more over the overall rate would be lower had they been kept out.

Remember the 25,000 Americans killed by illegals? Or the other crimes they commit, http://www.americanthinker.com/artic...tizens_do.html.

And mass immigration does not do those things to a much larger degree? Tell me how is allowing in people who will vote against us 8-2 for Bigger Government going to result in anything but a bigger government?

You are an ideologue, no amount of facts will convince you because you are blinded by your failed ideals and your ethic bias.

If you want to have an open border? Take the doors of your home and enjoy we Americans (real Americans, not just people who live here or want to give it all way to people who just exploit it) are going to protect it against tyrants, thieves and fools.

----------


## Zippyjuan

So you prefer military police states. I do not. They aren't very big on Liberty.  But you are free to move there if you prefer a big and beautiful wall.

Other than 9/11, how many Americans have been killed by Islamic immigrants?  They succeeded- in making people scared. You are letting them win by being willing to surrender your own freedoms to keep out this very minimal threat.   They have not succeeded in killing any significant numbers of Americans.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...y-a-terrorist/




> *You’re more likely to be fatally crushed by furniture than killed by a terrorist*
> 
> If you are worried that ISIS might strike the United States and want to prevent the loss of American lives, consider urging Congress to invest in diabetes and Alzheimer’s research.
> 
> Terrorism is effective in doing what its name says: inspiring profound fear. But despite unremitting coverage of the Paris attacks, an objective examination of the facts shows that terrorism is an insignificant danger to the vast majority of people in the West.
> 
> You, your family members, your friends, and your community are all significantly more at risk from a host of threats that we usually ignore than from terrorism.* For instance, while the Paris attacks left some 130 people dead, roughly three times that number of French citizens died on that same day from cancer.*
> 
> In the United States, an individual’s likelihood of being hurt or killed by a terrorist (whether an Islamist radical or some other variety) is negligible.
> ...

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> So you prefer military police states. I do not. They aren't very big on Liberty.  But you are free to move there if you prefer a big and beautiful wall.
> 
> Other than 9/11, how many Americans have been killed by Islamic immigrants?  They succeeded- in making people scared. You are letting them win by being willing to surrender your own freedoms to keep out this very minimal threat.   They have not succeeded in killing any significant numbers of Americans.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...y-a-terrorist/


First stop not quote my name as to not notify me of your reply, stop being a coward.

I love Liberty, that is why I am protecting it from imported threat, you on the other hand want to allow anyone in and if they vote away your rights, wealth, and future "oh well it was immoral not to keep them out because hurba dubra NAP, right of movement, etc"



What you can not understand is that mass immigration led to 9/11. If we had the 1924 act in place those degenerates would not have been allowed into the nation, and we would not have the Patriot Act, but you can not even understand that.

How about we get rid of mass immigration and protect Liberty, but you seem to love freedom while importing people who`s actions will be used as an excuse to limit our rights.

We have mass immigration, now we have a police and spy state, funny how we did not have need for that when we did not. But you are not capable of understanding such things.

Its ok Juan, the adults are here and we are going to restore sanity, go off and color.

----------


## MelissaWV

> LOL. Have you met a catholic girl from Mexico?


Maybe he's only met avocados from Mexico?

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

Na, I dont date crazy...

----------


## CCTelander

> First stop not quote my name as to not notify me of your reply, stop being a coward.
> 
> *I love Liberty*,



This is a joke, right? 





> that is why I am protecting it from imported threat, you on the other hand want to allow anyone in and if they vote away your rights, wealth, and future "oh well it was immoral not to keep them out because hurba dubra NAP, right of movement, etc"



Translation: Principles be damned. Those damned fereners give me the creeps. Who gives a damn about stupid things like rights?






> What you can not understand is that mass immigration led to 9/11. If we had the 1924 act in place those degenerates would not have been allowed into the nation, and we would not have the Patriot Act, but you can not even understand that.



And the heartbreak of psoriasis. I'm sure immigrants are somehow responsible for that too.





> How about we get rid of mass immigration and protect Liberty, but you seem to love freedom while importing people who`s actions will be used as an excuse to limit our rights.
> 
> We have mass immigration, now we have a police and spy state, funny how we did not have need for that when we did not. But you are not capable of understanding such things.



Because the very best way to defeat the massive police/surveillance state and ensure liberty is to empower the state even more to take liberty away. Do you guys even read what you post? It's obvious that you don't give it much thought.





> Its ok Juan, the adults are here and we are going to restore sanity, go off and color.



"Adults"! ROTFLMFAO!!!

----------


## Ender

> First stop not quote my name as to not notify me of your reply, stop being a coward.
> 
> I love Liberty, that is why I am protecting it from imported threat, you on the other hand want to allow anyone in and if they vote away your rights, wealth, and future "oh well it was immoral not to keep them out because hurba dubra NAP, right of movement, etc"
> 
> 
> 
> What you can not understand is that mass immigration led to 9/11. If we had the 1924 act in place those degenerates would not have been allowed into the nation, and we would not have the Patriot Act, but you can not even understand that.
> 
> How about we get rid of mass immigration and protect Liberty, but you seem to love freedom while importing people who`s actions will be used as an excuse to limit our rights.
> ...


Uhh.... what planet do you live on?

Mass immigration did NOT cause 911.

----------


## Ender

> His chance in Congress, his chance when he ran for the White House, he did not attack the media, his universal approach sank him.


NO.

The media ignored him, sank him. Ron was HE-WHO-MUST-NOT-BE-NAMED.

He had 1000s at his rallies but no media ever covered it- he was ignored to the point of leaving his name off polls and ballots, even if he was number 1 or 2.

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> Uhh.... what planet do you live on?
> 
> Mass immigration did NOT cause 911.


In part it did, if we did not pass the Immigration Act of 1965 we would never had admit really anyone from the Middle East as the National Origins laws would still be in place, which mainly barred people from the Middle East, which means we would not have let in then 9/11 Hijackers. No 9/11 No Patriot Act No Iraq War.




> NO.
> 
> The media ignored him, sank him. Ron was HE-WHO-MUST-NOT-BE-NAMED.
> 
> He had 1000s at his rallies but no media ever covered it- he was ignored to the point of leaving his name off polls and ballots, even if he was number 1 or 2.


[/QUOTE]

And he just took it, did not fight back, did not call out the liars and whores that are the media....Had he done so he might have been elected.

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> This is a joke, right?


No, its not. You cant love something without fight for and protecting it.





> Translation: Principles be damned. Those damned fereners give me the creeps. Who gives a damn about stupid things like rights?


If your principles result in you losing everything in the end, are the a benefit? No, they are immoral and are to be replaced with ones that are conducive to your survival, Liberty, and well being.

No, their actions, burden, and voting habits are a threat that needs to be prevented from inflicting harm on us.

People do not have the right violate the sovereignty of a nation, inflect burden or harm on to its people. Sorry you can not understand that the end result of them being here does just that..




> And the heartbreak of psoriasis. I'm sure immigrants are somehow responsible for that too.


Yeah lets ignore cites and states that are nothing more then colonies of Latin America, elections stolen by the leftists all the while moral signalers at those who want to secure the blessings of Liberty.

You wonder why the Alt Right is winning and will win where you singulars have fielded.






> Because the very best way to defeat the massive police/surveillance state and ensure liberty is to empower the state even more to take liberty away. Do you guys even read what you post? It's obvious that you don't give it much thought.


No it is to remove its need, which is by not allow in people who commit massive attacks like Islam, and by securing areas of the nation as to ensure the dysfunctions of the 3rd world do not spill over....

No Islam, no mass immigration no need for a massive police/spy state. But this idea proves that people are not equal, some cultures/values are Superior then others, that not all people value and some if given the chance to will vote away your rights/wealth/future.

Your inability to understand this is why you will never win nor really desire to if it means giving up the lie of egalitarianism and "fairness".




> "Adults"! ROTFLMFAO!!!


I see no facts, no stats, just alot of hot air and "Wow, just wow".

----------


## Ender

> In part it did, if we did not pass the Immigration Act of 1965 we would never had admit really anyone from the Middle East as the National Origins laws would still be in place, which mainly barred people from the Middle East, which means we would not have let in then 9/11 Hijackers. No 9/11 No Patriot Act No Iraq War.





> And he just took it, did not fight back, did not call out the liars and whores that are the media....Had he done so he might have been elected


.

The hijackers were Saudis- they were here because of .gov, not immigration.

And Ron Paul DID keep going- it's hard to "fight back" when no media will print or record anything you say.

THAT is the main reason many of us recognized Trump as an elitist tool, immediately. If he had been feared, he would have never been publicized, he would have been ignored.

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> .
> 
> The hijackers were Saudis- they were here because of .gov, not immigration.
> 
> And Ron Paul DID keep going- it's hard to "fight back" when no media will print or record anything you say.
> 
> THAT is the main reason many of us recognized Trump as an elitist tool, immediately. If he had been feared, he would have never been publicized, he would have been ignored.



..And how did they get here? Student Visas, which is what again?

Did he not use the Internet? Did not call the media out at the debates for silencing him? No, he just took it all passive aggressively.

You forget, the media is dumb, they think they can control Trump when in fact Trump is controlling them, they see him as a threat they have to destroy which has backfired massively against them.

----------


## Ender

> ..And how did they get here? Student Visas, which is what again?
> 
> Did he not use the Internet? Did not call the media out at the debates for silencing him? No, he just took it all passive aggressively.
> 
> You forget, the media is dumb, they think they can control Trump when in fact Trump is controlling them, they see him as a threat they have to destroy which has backfired massively against them.


There were elite Saudis here that were carefully taken out of the US by the gov right after 911. Also- some of the so-called ID's found were of people that were still alive in the ME going "Wha?"

We don' know nothin'.

And the media is NOT dumb; they are NOT trying to destroy Trump; they are helping him.

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> There were elite Saudis here that were carefully taken out of the US by the gov right after 911. Also- some of the so-called ID's found were of people that were still alive in the ME going "Wha?"
> 
> We don' know nothin'.
> 
> And the media is NOT dumb; they are NOT trying to destroy Trump; they are helping him.


If the we did not let in the 9/11 Hijackers would not have had the means to harm us.

Why would the media help Trump?

More over if they were helping him why would they being trying to sink him?

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> If the we did not let in the 9/11 Hijackers would not have had the means to harm us.


If we had outlawed planes, the hijackers wouldn't have had the means to harm us.

Therefore, outlaw planes.

#MakeAmericaDriveAgain

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> If we had outlawed planes, the hijackers wouldn't have had the means to harm us.
> 
> Therefore, outlaw planes.
> 
> #MakeAmericaDriveAgain


Autism speaks....through r3volution 3.0

----------


## Zippyjuan

> ..And how did they get here? Student Visas, which is what again?
> 
> Did he not use the Internet? Did not call the media out at the debates for silencing him? No, he just took it all passive aggressively.
> 
> You forget, the media is dumb, they think they can control Trump when in fact Trump is controlling them, they see him as a threat they have to destroy which has backfired massively against them.


Some were on student visas, some were on tourist visas.  Ban students and tourists?

How many a year are killed by Islamic terrorists in the country illegally?  Or even by those in the country legally?

How many are killed by automobiles?  Ban the car!

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> Some were on student visas, some were on tourist visas.  Ban students and tourists?
> 
> How many a year are killed by Islamic terrorists in the country illegally?  Or even by those in the country legally?
> 
> How many are killed by automobiles?  Ban the car!


Ban people from such nations (diplomats and very wealthy people get an exception)

We have proof that at least 25,000 by those illegally.

And a list of the those killed in mass shooting by legal immigrants 556 killed, 1500 wounded (not counting illegals)

(ironic number of those killed)

We can not prevent every death/killing, but we can prevent bringing in people who have a increased risk of snapping and killing Americans (and who leftist use as a excuse to limit our rights).

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Ban people from such nations (diplomats and very wealthy people get an exception)
> *
> We have proof that at least 25,000 by those illegally.
> *
> And a list of the those killed in mass shooting by legal immigrants 556 killed, 1500 wounded (not counting illegals)
> 
> (ironic number of those killed)
> 
> We can not prevent every death/killing, but we can prevent bringing in people who have a increased risk of snapping and killing Americans (and who leftist use as a excuse to limit our rights).


Links to support claims? 25,000 killed by illegal immigrants? (the 566 figure includes those killed by children of immigrants- children of immigrants are citizens- not immigrants).  

Noting that if we count all descendants of immigrants and ban all of them you would probably not be here either.

----------


## Ender

> Links to support claims? 25,000 killed by illegal immigrants? (the 566 figure includes those killed by children of immigrants- children of immigrants are citizens- not immigrants).  
> 
> Noting that if we count all descendants of immigrants and ban all of them you would probably not be here either.


Only us Injuns would be left.

YEA! No pipelines!

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> Links to support claims? 25,000 killed by illegal immigrants? (the 566 figure includes those killed by children of immigrants- children of immigrants are citizens- not immigrants).  
> 
> Noting that if we count all descendants of immigrants and ban all of them you would probably not be here either.




http://www.americanthinker.com/artic...tizens_do.html

If we did not let their parents in they would not be here, once again a preventable choice/preventable outcome, and even if you take away his 49 people that he murdered its still a high number, and immigrants do have a shock lying high rate of mass murder murder as the stats show.


*Immigration just IS stressful*
American immigration enthusiasts generally disregard the personal costs involved. But as, Brenda Walker wrote thoughtfully in her discussion of the 2009 Binghamton Massacre (perp: Vietnamese immigrant Jiverly Wong):Psychology informs us that even positive change can be highly stressful. Leaving home to attend college, for example, is simultaneously exhilarating and frightening….In a similar way, immigrating to a completely foreign culture is a vastly more disorienting experience, where the possibility for failure is real and life-affecting. Remarkably, many foreigners come to this country with no knowledge of English or understanding of how the society works, yet expect to find jobs, navigate a complex modern culture and somehow achieve the American Dream of deluxe home, trophy children and other bragging rights to impress the homies.
Some immigrants regret their choice, and either return to their home country or wish they could. Mexicans and others nearby can easily scoot back, and some do when theeconomic weather clouds up.
It`s a tough slog, even in a good economy, and we are far from prosperity these days. Immigrants can feel more on the edge when money is harder to acquire. They may have unrealistically fantasized a brilliant success, but are barely making ends meet. Frustration and anger can result when a personal Gold Mountain does not materialize.


Well that is not possible/no one is calling for that and your grasping at straws are not going to change the facts nor derail Patriotic Immigrant Reform.

----------


## otherone

> If *we* did not let their parents in they would not be here, once again a preventable choice/preventable outcome, and even if you take away his 49 people that he murdered its still a high number, and immigrants do have a shock lying high rate of mass murder murder as the stats show.


So you're responsible?

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> So you're responsible?


Those who play word games are those without a point or those who have lost the debate, which are you?

----------


## otherone

> Those who play word games are those without a point or those who have lost the debate, which are you?


You are the one who wrote "we" so maybe you should be explaining your preference for collectivism.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> [/U]
> http://www.americanthinker.com/artic...tizens_do.html
> 
> If we did not let their parents in they would not be here, once again a preventable choice/preventable outcome, and even if you take away his 49 people that he murdered its still a high number, and immigrants do have a shock lying high rate of mass murder murder as the stats show.
> 
> 
> *Immigration just IS stressful*
> American immigration enthusiasts generally disregard the personal costs involved. But as, Brenda Walker wrote thoughtfully in her discussion of the 2009 Binghamton Massacre (perp: Vietnamese immigrant Jiverly Wong):Psychology informs us that even positive change can be highly stressful. Leaving home to attend college, for example, is simultaneously exhilarating and frightening….In a similar way, immigrating to a completely foreign culture is a vastly more disorienting experience, where the possibility for failure is real and life-affecting. Remarkably, many foreigners come to this country with no knowledge of English or understanding of how the society works, yet expect to find jobs, navigate a complex modern culture and somehow achieve the American Dream of deluxe home, trophy children and other bragging rights to impress the homies.
> Some immigrants regret their choice, and either return to their home country or wish they could. Mexicans and others nearby can easily scoot back, and some do when theeconomic weather clouds up.
> ...


Somebody let in your ancestors. Maybe you should have to leave too.




> Immigration just IS stressful


Yes, any new situation can be stressful.   That is why people don't just come here so they can sit around and collect welfare checks all day.

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> 









> 


















> 













> 







> 









> 










> 










> 








> 









> 





..

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> Somebody let in your ancestors. Maybe you should have to leave too.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, any new situation can be stressful.   That is why people don't just come here so they can sit around and collect welfare checks all day.


Aw...Whats wrong Juan, not able to make any fact based, logical comebacks? 

Well seeing how the act, vote, lower wages, increase cost of living, we are going to have to cut down on the number and origin of people we let in. 

That iss not true

http://cis.org/Welfare-Use-Immigrant-Native-Households

http://cis.org/Cost-Welfare-Immigrant-Native-Households

http://cis.org/Welfare-Use-Legal-Ill...ant-Households

Oh snap, FACTS!

----------


## jmdrake

> And what speech did you listen to?


This one. 

http://www.breitbart.com/video/2015/...ting-them-out/

----------


## MelissaWV

The thread had been gone for a couple of weeks   I thought it might actually die.  Alas.

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> The thread had been gone for a couple of weeks   I thought it might actually die.  Alas.



Immigration is the only issue that matters, so why would it die? We are about to restore sanity in ways of legal immigration selection, border control, deportation, cultural preservation, etc.

----------


## CCTelander

> Immigration is the only issue that matters, so why would it die? We are about to restore sanity in ways of legal immigration selection, border control, deportation, cultural preservation, etc.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

Didn't read the whole thread, but isn't the thread title overly "sensational" and "collectivist" in violation of forum rules?

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Immigration is *the only issue that matters*, so why would it die? We are about to restore sanity in ways of legal immigration selection, border control, deportation, cultural preservation, etc.


Only eight percent of voters agree. http://www.pollingreport.com/prioriti.htm




> CBS News/New York Times Poll. Sept. 9-13, 2016. N=1,433 registered voters nationwide. Margin of error ± 3.
> 
> "In deciding who you would like to see elected president this year, *which one of the following issues will be most important to you:* national security and terrorism, the economy and jobs, health care, immigration, or something else?" Issues rotated 	 	 
> 
> Economy and jobs 32	 	 	 
> 
> National security, terrorism 29	 	 	 
> 
> Health care 16	 	 	 
> ...






> NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll conducted by Hart Research Associates (D) and Public Opinion Strategies (R). May 15-19, 2016. N=1,000 registered voters nationwide. Margin of error ± 3.1.
> 
> "Let me list some issues that have been proposed for the federal government to address. Please tell me *which ONE OR TWO of these items you think should be the top priority for the federal government:* Job creation and economic growth. National security and terrorism. The deficit and government spending. Health care. Climate change. Immigration. Religious and moral values." Options rotated	 	 	 
> 
> Job, economic growth 26	 	 	 
> 
> National security, terrorism 21	 	 	 
> 
> Deficit, government spending 16	 	 	 
> ...

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> Didn't read the whole thread, but isn't the thread title overly "sensational" and "collectivist" in violation of forum rules?


So ban everyone who does not agree with me, but "I value Liberty".

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> Only eight percent of voters agree. http://www.pollingreport.com/prioriti.htm


And immigration effects all of the top 3 issues.

----------


## Zippyjuan

Only in small amounts. Get rid of immigrants and reduce those by less than ten percent. It doesn't solve any of them. Trying to get rid of them will work on one problem-  it will expand government and increase government spending and debt.  It is a distraction which avoids actually dealing with the real problems.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> So ban everyone who does not agree with me, but "I value Liberty".


It doesn't bother me, bro. It does tend to bug admin, that's all.  I don't agree with the policy myself, but it's not my forum.

----------


## RandallFan

Jobs and immigration are related. 

Clinton and the national Democrat platform want as many useful idiot third worlders as possible. 

Some people will tick jobs as an issue while believing not letting in too many immigrants in.

Some times the wording of the poll is:"Do you want to waterboard all migrants; or do you want to let them all in or do you want to pick an unrelated box?"

I remember there was some WH meeting in mid 2015 and a bunch of hispanic activists didn't mention immigration to Obama; they wanted more beltway jobs for hispanic activists.

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> Only in small amounts. Get rid of immigrants and reduce those by less than ten percent. It doesn't solve any of them. Trying to get rid of them will work on one problem-  it will expand government and increase government spending and debt.  It is a distraction which avoids actually dealing with the real problems.


No it does massively effect the economy, wages, cost of living, national security.

And doing nothing will only expend the government more and increase the debt as well, as always your idea  is do nothing.

----------


## Zippyjuan

Saw this one on Facebook today:

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> Saw this one on Facebook today:



Because they broke the law to be here, commit more crimes, increase the cost of living, take more out of the system then they put in.

More over Trump did not have to pay anything because the way the tax system is written.


"Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one’s taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everyone does it, rich and poor alike and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands" — *Judge Learned Hand*

----------


## osan

> read the rest...


"Hispanics", which is anyone _not_ from Spain proper, are conquered people.  It is the only state of being they have ever known, and so it is that with which they are comfortable.  The article correctly notes:




> _Part of this probably comes from the fact that most Hispanic immigrants, legal and illegal, come from countries with deeply socialist and often quasi-dictatorial governments.  This is what they are used to, except that here, the government benefits are much more generous, providing a standard of living that far exceeds that of their countries of origin in most cases._


The bolded text I'd never before considered, yet it makes great and perfect sense.  I would also note that Spanish culture is itself lazy in its nature, when compared with the work ethic of the mean American.  That is not to say it is inferior because of it, but only that it is comparatively very lazy.  For anyone who has been to Spain (I have), consider siesta.  Every day, the sidewalks are rolled up ca. noon and remain that way for three to five hours, after which they roll back out, businesses staying open to about 8pm, some later.  This may or may not be a factor coloring the cultures of Hispanics, but it would not surprise me to find that it is.  There is, after all, siesta in Mexico, but my point is whether the cultural element has somehow been mutated into something different - more maligned.  Just food for speculative thought.

Article goes on:




> _Why push your children to excel when by merely coming here and putting your American-born children on government programs, you've already provided a life for them far beyond what would be possible, or even fathomable, where you come from?  You, too, would develop a near-religious fervor for government programs, as Hispanics apparently have, had this been your history._


_
_
In a sense this cops out in that it fails to mention the greed and the hatred factors.  Even more than black folk, an absolutely enormous proportion of Hispanics quite bitterly hate America, despite the fact that they have fled here, legally or otherwise.  The glaring exception to this are the Cubans, who have always been staunch lovers of this land.  Unlike many Hispanics, they are very industrious, enterprising, and devoid of the bitterness for America.  Very much the opposite, they love America in ways that can put other, ostensibly "more American" populations to some shame in that regard.

I am not sure where this hatred for Americans stems, but I will mince no words on the matter - by whatever means a great multiplicity of people from Hispanic nations absolutely hate Americans and are often rather open in their sentiments that include the destruction of America.  Mexicans in what seems to be ever growing numbers and boldness are calling for Mexico to retake the entire western half of the United States.  I do believe this is treasonous language and that alone would qualify them for being hunted, rounded up, and shipped back to wherever it is from which they came.  Such is no longer mere exercise of free speech, but incitement, which can become very serious business.  Some may chafe at this, but from a purely practical standpoint, I do not think that those folks would be singing the same tune were they to find 30 million illegals rioting and killing proper Americans with the expressed intention of recouping those territories they believe to belong to Mexico, were this to become reality - which it probably will not.  However, it is instructional to note that the frequency and stridency of such talk appears to be very much on the rise, especially in places like California where the anti-_white_ passions of the Mexicans there appear to be at all-time highs.

Here, the author hits a cha-_ching_ moment:




> _The stereotype of the illegal immigrant who comes here with only a heartfelt desire to do the jobs Americans don't want in the hopes of pulling himself up by the bootstraps is a dangerously deceptive one that simply doesn't persist in subsequent generations._


I am suspecting envy drives some of the hate, which is then passed on to the children, only greatly amplified as it is in human nature to do so.  The children see their parents as slaving for whitey, probably largely due to the "social" environments in places such as schools and the ghettoes where many of them live.  Before you know it, this nonsense takes on a life of its own as it passes critical mass.  Now, with cheap and easy communications, these poisons are spewed to the people "back home" and almost of its own accord a tacit plot arises to get as many of one's own here in order to establish a "new world order", as it were, in America where in the wake of all manner of nonsensical thinking, the distorted perceptions of that block of people drive them to ever increasing hate, envy, bitterness, and the lust for revenge for offenses that exist only in their mutilated thoughts.

Now, if one takes a step back, a pattern emerges quite readily - requiring no special lens for acquisition.  Looking at America - WHITE AMERICA - what do we see?  We see Hispanics (taken as a statistical gestalt) wanting to slit every white throat in the land.  We see blacks wanting the same, and Muslims.  The Chinese and other Asians have been relatively silent in this respect, and yet even there I have heard similar rumblings.  Chromosexuals, while less violent in their bitterness, are largely on board with the more vague notion of bringing down America in the sense of wrecking everything that doesn't suck their little chromosexual.  Then there are the womyn - the feminists whose partitioning of the enemy appears in some manner more akin to that of the chromos than others.  And yet the basic "kill 'em all" subtext is clearly present.

Now look at white Americans - what are they actually _doing?_  They have been endlessly solicitous and accommodating to all the professional victims one might care to name, save perhaps the members of NAMBLA (don't worry, in time that too will likely change  )   There are no more lynchings.  White people have taken TWO steps back for every step demanded them by these purportedly abused people.  They have accepted the false blame.  They have opened their wallets and hearts. They silently bit their lips as their beloved children brought home every form of knuckle dragger from the ghettoes into their homes, all the while telling themselves "it's all about equality and diversity and in atonement for the sin of being white".  They have conceded damned nearly every point claimed by those whose only goal appears to be a genocide to call their very own: the utter destruction of all whiteness in the land called America.

Like the goodly souls they tend to be, again speaking statistically, white-Americans have done everything reasonable and much that is utterly and far beyond reason in order to make amends for the sins of people nobody alive today ever knew.  The sons are paying for the sins of the great great grandfathers of strangers for no other reason than that they share a cultural and, dare I say, _genetic_ heritage.  What is being done to white Americans is precisely that of which these victims claim has been done to _them_, which is the big lie.  They further lie through what is at the very least the innuendo that what had been done to their ancestors is therefore inherited by them, thereby establishing the false link in equally false justification of their hate- and greed-filled positions and demands.

I myself remember an "black event" when I was 18 at USC.  All manner of money had been poured into it with food, live music, and so on.  The majority in attendance were black students.  Virtually every last one of them were on an all-expense paid ticket, courtesy almost exclusively of white-Americans.  I had no such consideration.  My parents were killing themselves, each working two jobs to pay the outlandish  $11K tuition (USC was one of the most costly schools in America in 1976).

At CCNY, one of my degrees required I take a "black studies" class.  Much as I tried to wheedle my way out, I was stuck.  Well, I actually learned a few very valuable things there.  The most significant came on the day Professor Kiteme fell dead-silent in mid sentence, eyes glued to the back of the classroom.  Two bros were sitting significantly rearward of the rest of the class, getting wasted on Wild Turkey, of all things.  Kiteme tossed them out with some considerable anger and went on a diatribe about this being one of the reasons white people have no respect for the black, because they behave like knyggers.  He was simply fuming over it, also pointing out the problem with handing out free educations to people like this because they have no respect for themselves or anything else in this world.  And so on and so forth.

The point here is that all these purported "victims" have been obliged in every way imaginable, and yet the only result has been ever greater demands and ever growing hatred and violence of sentiment, and now even action.  White Americans have been as saints toward these people and are about to find themselves in a very tight corner if things keep going as they have been. There is no apparent indication that this will not continue.  To what good end shall all this lead?  None that I can see.

The funny thing in it is that this reminds me of two dogs.  One is huge, the other an ankle-biter... like a chihuahua   The little one is busily giving the giant what-for with his endless snarling and other posturing while the great lummox shrinks away into a corner, all a-shiver.  This is how I see the relationship between the white majority and the other minority, the latter chattering away its accusations, threats, and demands as the other keeps backing away in the genuine desire to have no fight.  I wonder how long and how far this can go before the bulldog decides to eat the instigator just to shut him up.

Interesting times.

With white-Americans having been so generous toward all these gangs, what we see in terms of the responses can be explained in only a few ways.  Either the people making up these minorities are degenerates (again speaking statistically) such that the only thing they really merit is the race war they so cravenly demand and which will result in their being literally decimated when the largesse of their betters runs out, or there is someone, not openly apparent, who is steering this boat.  I will once again wax generous and dismiss the former possibility in favor of the latter.  I cannot say with precision who these people may be who drive these hordes against the posterity of those who forged this land.  I can, however, speculate with non-trivial confidence that there is in fact a conscious intention on the part of someone, somewhere, to see that white-America is burned to the waterline.  The reasons for this I have discussed many times in the past in these forums and feel no need to repeat myself yet again, unless someone really wants to hear it for the nth time.

Something is up, is big, and is no friend of free men.

----------


## osan

> Saw this one on Facebook today:


For Christ's sake Juan, stop playing the idiot.  You know perfectly well that this is fallacy-ridden and perfectly untrue.

----------


## MelissaWV

The siesta thing mentioned above is baffling.  How do you figure it's lazy if a business is open far later than the 5pm closing hour here, but just makes an allowance around lunch to go home, eat, take care of family, and possibly take a nap?  So many years later, "studies" showed that power naps and eating small, varied meals of fresh food, and being in touch with family throughout the day were good things.

In many parts of Mexico and the Southwest (and in other cultures, but you're discussing Hispanics here), the siesta has coincided with the hottest part of the day.  When my parents were younger, school let out for 1-2 hours (depending where you were) so that you could go home for lunch and then come back.  School let out at about the same time, because there was no study hall or elective period; you went in, you learned, you went home, you came back, you learned, you went home, see you Sunday (Catholic school).  

The only thing reading that entire thing osan posted brought to mind is that many people I see at workplaces are lounging around staring off into space, on their phones, or generally "on break" half the day.  If Hispanics used to be a lazy culture, they definitely don't have the monopoly on that now.  A hard worker is a supremely rare thing (and I'm excluding people who simply THINK they are hard workers, yet cannot produce results).

----------


## osan

> The trick, I am convinced, is to change the discussion from, "what government does _for_ you" to "what government does _to_ you"





                                                                                CUT TO:
Uncle Sam's bedroom

                                     SCENE

We see: Uncle Sam's GIGANTIC penis at the ready for insertion into Miss America's anus


                                    UNCLE SAM

                               Take THAT, bitch!

                                   MISS AMERICA

                                 GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAK!!

...

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> "Hispanics", which is anyone _not_ from Spain proper, are conquered people.  It is the only state of being they have ever known, and so it is that with which they are comfortable.  The article correctly notes:
> 
> 
> 
> The bolded text I'd never before considered, yet it makes great and perfect sense.  I would also note that Spanish culture is itself lazy in its nature, when compared with the work ethic of the mean American.  That is not to say it is inferior because of it, but only that it is comparatively very lazy.  For anyone who has been to Spain (I have), consider siesta.  Every day, the sidewalks are rolled up ca. noon and remain that way for three to five hours, after which they roll back out, businesses staying open to about 8pm, some later.  This may or may not be a factor coloring the cultures of Hispanics, but it would not surprise me to find that it is.  There is, after all, siesta in Mexico, but my point is whether the cultural element has somehow been mutated into something different - more maligned.  Just food for speculative thought.
> 
> Article goes on:
> 
> _
> ...



The fact that these invaders/rent seekers will never be satisfied is started to dawn on White America, and the people who control this subverissve lot are started to fear the coming backlash...as they should.

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> The siesta thing mentioned above is baffling.  How do you figure it's lazy if a business is open far later than the 5pm closing hour here, but just makes an allowance around lunch to go home, eat, take care of family, and possibly take a nap?  So many years later, "studies" showed that power naps and eating small, varied meals of fresh food, and being in touch with family throughout the day were good things.
> 
> In many parts of Mexico and the Southwest (and in other cultures, but you're discussing Hispanics here), the siesta has coincided with the hottest part of the day.  When my parents were younger, school let out for 1-2 hours (depending where you were) so that you could go home for lunch and then come back.  School let out at about the same time, because there was no study hall or elective period; you went in, you learned, you went home, you came back, you learned, you went home, see you Sunday (Catholic school).  
> 
> The only thing reading that entire thing osan posted brought to mind is that many people I see at workplaces are lounging around staring off into space, on their phones, or generally "on break" half the day.  If Hispanics used to be a lazy culture, they definitely don't have the monopoly on that now.  A hard worker is a supremely rare thing (and I'm excluding people who simply THINK they are hard workers, yet cannot produce results).


Why should a person work hard in an era where hard work DOES NOT AND WILL NOT get you ahead?

Also Mexican culture did not go to the Moon using a slide ruler...

----------


## erowe1

It doesn't matter what any voters want anyway. They don't have any say over anything.

----------


## osan

> The siesta thing mentioned above is baffling.  How do you figure it's lazy if a business is open far later than the 5pm closing hour here, but just makes an allowance around lunch to go home, eat, take care of family, and possibly take a nap?  So many years later, "studies" showed that power naps and eating small, varied meals of fresh food, and being in touch with family throughout the day were good things.
> 
> In many parts of Mexico and the Southwest (and in other cultures, but you're discussing Hispanics here), the siesta has coincided with the hottest part of the day.  When my parents were younger, school let out for 1-2 hours (depending where you were) so that you could go home for lunch and then come back.  School let out at about the same time, because there was no study hall or elective period; you went in, you learned, you went home, you came back, you learned, you went home, see you Sunday (Catholic school).  
> 
> The only thing reading that entire thing osan posted brought to mind is that many people I see at workplaces are lounging around staring off into space, on their phones, or generally "on break" half the day.  If Hispanics used to be a lazy culture, they definitely don't have the monopoly on that now.  A hard worker is a supremely rare thing (and I'm excluding people who simply THINK they are hard workers, yet cannot produce results).


As I explicitly stated, it is not of necessity _inferior_, but it is lazier.

One thing I should have also mentioned as further qualification with greater explicitness is that the lazy-factor is greatly amplified by ghetto-culture.  Lots of MX is a ghetto, which I know to be true from my travels there.  The same can be said of ANY contemporary ghetto in the western hemisphere, white included.

And once more, I also was very explicit in mentioning that I spoke statistically.  There is no way one can reasonably take what I wrote as applying to all of any given group, Mexican or other.  Take, for example, the work of an old and dear friend of mine:  rocioheredia.com  The girl is lovely, but damned nearly blind and full of all manner of health issues including MS and, I believe, lupus.  And yet this is the sort of work that comes from her hands.  So let us not become pinched in the undies when valid statistical statements are made that bring to attention readily observable trends in large populations.

----------


## osan

> Why should a person work hard in an era where hard work DOES NOT AND WILL NOT get you ahead?


And here, ladies and gentlemen, is a money-shot worth the reading.  It applies not just to this culture or that, but to all.  Living in WV I see it alive and well in white households where, forty years ago, it would never have been found.  But be late with the EBT refill and see what the reaction will be as I did in Hinton about 9 years ago.  The "government" was late one or two days because of some computer issue, IIRC, and the trash were ready to burn the town to the ground.




> Also Mexican culture did not go to the Moon using a slide ruler...


Valid point.

----------


## osan

> The fact that these invaders/rent seekers will never be satisfied is started to dawn on White America, and the people who control this subverissve lot are started to fear the coming backlash...as they should.


And that may have something to do with this apparent step-up of what seems like an agenda.  "Oh crap, the trick is losing its effect... we'd better hurry things up before the stooges get wise and react."

----------


## TheCount

> Also Mexican culture did not go to the Moon using a slide ruler...


If white european culture is the "good part" of American culture, why didn't Europe get there first - or at all?

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Why should a person work hard in an era where hard work DOES NOT AND WILL NOT get you ahead?
> 
> Also Mexican culture did not go to the Moon using a slide ruler...


They are far more likely to be in the labor force (working) than US citizens.  http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/...s-us-born-men/




> In 2012, the most recent year for which data is available, an estimated *91 percent of illegal immigrant males were in the workforce.* This compares to *84 percent of legal immigrant men and 79 percent of U.S.-born males,* Pew Research Center demographer Jeffrey Passel wrote in testimony prepared for a March 26 hearing held by the Senate Homeland Security & Government Affairs Committee.
> 
> Put in a different way,* legal and illegal immigrant males had a better chance to be in the workforce than U.S.-born men* in 2012.

----------


## MelissaWV

> As I explicitly stated, it is not of necessity _inferior_, but it is lazier.
> 
> One thing I should have also mentioned as further qualification with greater explicitness is that the lazy-factor is greatly amplified by ghetto-culture.  Lots of MX is a ghetto, which I know to be true from my travels there.  The same can be said of ANY contemporary ghetto in the western hemisphere, white included.
> 
> And once more, I also was very explicit in mentioning that I spoke statistically.  There is no way one can reasonably take what I wrote as applying to all of any given group, Mexican or other.  Take, for example, the work of an old and dear friend of mine:  rocioheredia.com  The girl is lovely, but damned nearly blind and full of all manner of health issues including MS and, I believe, lupus.  And yet this is the sort of work that comes from her hands.  So let us not become pinched in the undies when valid statistical statements are made that bring to attention readily observable trends in large populations.


Panties decidedly not in a snitch  

The baffling part was referring to the fact that if you're still working an eight-hour day, it really isn't lazier.  It's just different priorities.  It's actually pretty crazy how many businesses close up shop at 5pm in the US in general, or open late on Sundays.  If anything, I find that lazier, but I think we're simply working from different perspectives.  

If I can work less, and there are no financial consequences for it, I'm going to work less (at least that's the attitude).  It's pervading all kinds of cultures across the board.  That part is super worrisome to me.  The focus on just one part of the population wanting Statism or wanting to be entitled and lazy, seems to me to ignore the fact we're all outnumbered by a bunch of lazy idiots.  That's all.

----------


## Zippyjuan

> If white european culture is the "good part" of American culture, why didn't Europe get there first - or at all?


We got the better Germans after the war. Russians took what was left.

----------


## osan

> Panties decidedly not in a snitch  
> 
> The baffling part was referring to the fact that if you're still working an eight-hour day, it really isn't lazier.  It's just different priorities.  It's actually pretty crazy how many businesses close up shop at 5pm in the US in general, or open late on Sundays.  If anything, I find that lazier, but I think we're simply working from different perspectives.


Points taken.  But also bear in mind that in many sectors there is no such thing as a 40-hour work week.  I, for example, have spend years working 70-80 hours per week and a not inconsiderable amount of my life working over 100.  While $20K weekly checks are nice, feeling like you would be better off dying isn't that much fun.  I have worked for a lot of clients and 70 hours per week is pretty well the norm these past 25 years.  Americans as a rule, especially in the more "professional" professions are more highly driven than perhaps any other people on the planet.  I don't think it is healthy and I would never do it again - I'm done with that, and large paychecks will not tempt me back into that morass.




> If I can work less, and there are no financial consequences for it, I'm going to work less (at least that's the attitude).  It's pervading all kinds of cultures across the board.  That part is super worrisome to me.  The focus on just one part of the population wanting Statism or wanting to be entitled and lazy, seems to me to ignore the fact we're all outnumbered by a bunch of lazy idiots.  That's all.


Again, points well taken.  The ghetto mentality - get over and get even - has spilled into the rest of the world's cultures and it is undoing us.  That $#@! should have remained bottled up in the crap-holes like LA, NYC, Chicago, and so forth.  But no - it was glamorized and now great swaths of the young people - those 40 and under - have adopted all the worst in humanity under the false narratives of diversity, equality, etc.  We are committing collective suicide.  Yeah, baby!

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> And here, ladies and gentlemen, is a money-shot worth the reading.  It applies not just to this culture or that, but to all.  Living in WV I see it alive and well in white households where, forty years ago, it would never have been found.  But be late with the EBT refill and see what the reaction will be as I did in Hinton about 9 years ago.  The "government" was late one or two days because of some computer issue, IIRC, and the trash were ready to burn the town to the ground.
> 
> 
> 
> Valid point.



More over even if you do work hard, play by the rules, you have to pay for all of those who do not (which is a higher and higher cost every year), have to suffer for the moronic people they elected and the moronic laws they create/pass into law.

Then you have to pay the cost of regulations which at best cost you time and money and not your freedom from running afoul of a never ending minefield of laws, regulations, taxes, etc.

Then we have to deal with the imported hordes, the most low IQ, dysfunctional, illiterate, anger driven, unreasonable, backwater people that are imported for the simple fact the COC loves "cheap" labor, and leftist need welfare clients. Their actions are used to justify infringements on our rights, wealth, and future, and the left is doing everything to mint them as voters (never mind them illegally voting)




> And that may have something to do with this apparent step-up of what seems like an agenda.  "Oh crap, the trick is losing its effect... we'd better hurry things up before the stooges get wise and react."


Good luck to them, we are awake, we are mad, and we are going to restore what was stolen from us.

If that means these people have to be "physically removed", I am ok with that.




> If white european culture is the "good part" of American culture, why didn't Europe get there first - or at all?



European Culture IS American Culture. Was since Jamestown and was/is until we thought some how Islamic and Mestizo Hordes were apart of a nation they did not found.

Can I claim I am founding member of a group/nation/company even if I had NOTHING to do with it? No!

Mostly because they were rebuilding from the war, did not have the industrial base, money, and the basic desire to do so. More over they had to worry about the warsaw pact.







> They are far more likely to be in the labor force (working) than US citizens.  http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/...s-us-born-men/


They also use more services, pay fewer taxes, commit more crimes, and use more welfare. Also that claim has been debunked. Your lies are not even being believed.

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> We got the better Germans after the war. Russians took what was left.



No, they took only who they could kidnap..

----------


## Zippyjuan

More darned foreigners imported into the US. Kick out the Germans!  Kick out the French!  Kick out the Italians, the Irish, the English, et all  plus all of their progeny!

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> More darned foreigners imported into the US. Kick out the Germans!  Kick out the French!  Kick out the Italians, the Irish, the English, et all  plus all of their progeny!


So you have noting of value to add...Classic.

Those Germans gave us a moon landing, Non White immigrants since 1965 gave us more crime, more disease, more welfare usage, more welfare voters, and gave us morons like Bush, Obama, and maybe Clinton.

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## timosman

> More darned foreigners imported into the US. Kick out the Germans!  Kick out the French!  Kick out the Italians, the Irish, the English, et all  plus all of their progeny!


Libertarians have a problem with being taken seriously. Is there any other board where this would be tolerated? On a liberal forum Zippy would have his ass handed to him in an instant and yet here it is not a big deal.

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## Zippyjuan

> So you have noting of value to add...Classic.
> 
> Those Germans gave us a moon landing, Non White immigrants since 1965 gave us more crime, more disease, more welfare usage, more welfare voters, and gave us morons like Bush, Obama, and maybe Clinton.


Yep. More immigrants have led to more crime in the US.  I see.  (White European immigrants were also considered to be lazy, disease infested criminal types).

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## otherone

> So you have noting of value to add...Classic.
> 
> Those Germans gave us a moon landing


German immigrants did not give "us" a moon landing.  Nazi rocket scientists were pointedly, forcibly imported to the US before the Soviets could pointedly, forcibly import them.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> Yep. More immigrants have led to more crime in the US.  I see.  (White European immigrants were also considered to be lazy, disease infested criminal types).


http://www.americanthinker.com/artic...tizens_do.html

Your lies are not being believed anymore.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> German immigrants did not give "us" a moon landing.  Nazi rocket scientists were pointedly, forcibly imported to the US before the Soviets could pointedly, forcibly import them.


They added skills/tech there were well worth what ever burden/costs they imparted on us.

What has post 1965 Immigration gave us but more leftists, poverty, crime, terrorism, etc?

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## MelissaWV

What has post 1965 Government gave (sic) us but more leftists, poverty, crime, terrorism, etc?

I'm not going to argue the merits or malice of an entire group of people from all over the world as if they are a monolithic structure, but I would point out that if you phrased it as I just did above, you might have some of your answers.

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## Zippyjuan

> They added skills/tech there were well worth what ever burden/costs they imparted on us.
> 
> What has post 1965 Immigration gave us but more leftists, poverty, crime, terrorism, etc?


From your own link: 




> The more problematic aspect is Trump’s implication that *undocumented immigrants are more criminal than the average U.S. citizen*. That implication is what the Washington Post *“fact checked” and found false.*

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## Superfluous Man

> Because they broke the law to be here, commit more crimes, increase the cost of living, take more out of the system then they put in.


All of which applies to Trump too.

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## Superfluous Man

> Non White immigrants


There it is.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> What has post 1965 Government gave (sic) us but more leftists, poverty, crime, terrorism, etc?
> 
> I'm not going to argue the merits or malice of an entire group of people from all over the world as if they are a monolithic structure, but I would point out that if you phrased it as I just did above, you might have some of your answers.


So adding more 3rd world people who use/vote for more welfare/government in no way shape or form effected anything?

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> There it is.


So facts are 'wrong"? A majority of post 1965 immigration has been non white and largely harmful because of their culture/values/politics/IQ, etc.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> All of which applies to Trump too.


Name one law he broke.

Also name one immigration law he has broken.

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## Superfluous Man

> So adding more 3rd world people who use/vote for more welfare/government in no way shape or form effected anything?


It was a boon to the economy.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> From your own link:


The GOA study has proven the liars wrong. Its ok if you can not understand/accept it, it does not make it no true.

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## Superfluous Man

> So facts are 'wrong"? A majority of post 1965 immigration has been non white and largely harmful because of their culture/values/politics/IQ, etc.


You need a refresher on the difference between fact and opinion.

And whatever harm it is that you've dreamed up. I'd like to hear how you make a connection between that and the melanin in people's skin.

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## Tywysog Cymru

> Non White immigrants since 1965 gave us... Bush


I don't think Republicans have won the minority vote since at least the '50s, probably earlier than that.  Bush I was elected President in 1988, while his son was elected in 2000 and reelected in 2004.  You do the math.

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## Superfluous Man

> Name one law he broke.
> 
> Also name one immigration law he has broken.


We know he has hired illegal immigrants.

And we all break laws regularly. There are too many laws for any of us to keep track of. That a person has merely broken some unjust law is no discredit to them.

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## MelissaWV

> So adding more 3rd world people who use/vote for more welfare/government in no way shape or form effected anything?


Sorry, were you discussing only illegal immigration?  Third world immigration?  Only those who voted for more Government?

Here's an experiment.  Remove "immigrant voters" (this would include the kids of those who came here illegally, obviously) from the pool.  Look at the passing of laws, the electing of Presidents, the placement of judges, and the electing of lower level officials.  Are you really arguing that, but for the influx of immigrants and the spreading out of those "low IQ" people into the electoral process, we would be living with less welfare/government?  There are more than enough citizens to vote in every awful thing you can think of since the 60s, aided by policies involving schools, distribution of information, availability of welfare to soothe the loss of jobs and familial stability, and so on.

So no, I can't bring myself to think that a lack of immigrants of every stripe since the 60s would do a great deal to better the state of this country.  It's like blaming something on "the youth vote"; it's convenient but when you really look at it, they are outnumbered.  Vastly.

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## Zippyjuan

White citizens been voting on all that big government stuff.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> I don't think Republicans have won the minority vote since at least the '50s, probably earlier than that.  Bush I was elected President in 1988, while his son was elected in 2000 and reelected in 2004.  You do the math.



Funny, how can you win the vote of welfare voters when you say "No I will give you free stuff, but a job"...

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> White citizens been voting on all that big government stuff.




wow, its almost like you are wrong every time you talk...

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## Zippyjuan

> wow, its almost like you are wrong every time you talk...


And what percent of those people have actually been voting?  (noting that the chart says nothing about immigration status- native born or not)?  Then you have to divide those figures by their percentage of the population reducing their impact even more.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> We know he has hired illegal immigrants.
> 
> And we all break laws regularly. There are too many laws for any of us to keep track of. That a person has merely broken some unjust law is no discredit to them.


And you know he knew they were illegal and not some sub contractor looking to save a few bucks?




> Sorry, were you discussing only illegal immigration?  Third world immigration?  Only those who voted for more Government?
> 
> Here's an experiment.  Remove "immigrant voters" (this would include the kids of those who came here illegally, obviously) from the pool.  Look at the passing of laws, the electing of Presidents, the placement of judges, and the electing of lower level officials.  Are you really arguing that, but for the influx of immigrants and the spreading out of those "low IQ" people into the electoral process, we would be living with less welfare/government?  There are more than enough citizens to vote in every awful thing you can think of since the 60s, aided by policies involving schools, distribution of information, availability of welfare to soothe the loss of jobs and familial stability, and so on.
> 
> So no, I can't bring myself to think that a lack of immigrants of every stripe since the 60s would do a great deal to better the state of this country.  It's like blaming something on "the youth vote"; it's convenient but when you really look at it, they are outnumbered.  Vastly.


I am talking about any immigration that changes the nation for the worse, displaces the rightful owners of this nation, and works against their rights, wealth, and future.

..Sure. That would be more then ok but not far enough. We need deportations as well as an updated 1924 Immigration Act to limit immigration to only compatible groups.

Yes we would, less demand for welfare/government and far, far fewer clients/voters for the welfare state as well as trouble makers/"victims" would mean a reduction in the size/use of the welfare state by tens of millions of people.

Yes there were, in the era of the internet leftism is collapsing, so they have to import millions of ringers...

Wrong, it would, less labors=higher wages, lower cost of living, more choices, lower crime, no Islamic terror cells (no Patriotic Act), tens of millions of fewer people most likely to vote leftist would mean far fewer leftist in office....

Not sure why you can not accept the fact that mass immigration is a weapon being used against this nation.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> And what percent of those people have actually been voting?  (noting that the chart says nothing about immigration status- native born or not)?  Then you have to divide those figures by their percentage of the population reducing their impact even more.


So make the case on adding more welfare voters is a good thing.

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## Zippyjuan

Quick math. Let's say we had 1000 people.  Hispanics are 17% of the population.  In our sample, that means that there were 170 of them.  Twenty percent of them voted- that is 34. By your chart, 75% of them voted for bigger government- 25.5 Hispanics voting for bigger government.  

Whites.  75% of the population so 750 people. 40% of them voted. 300 voting. 27% of them favored bigger government by your chart. 81 white people voted for bigger government or *more than three times as many whites as Hispanics voting for it.*

Which supports my claim:




> White citizens been voting on all that big government stuff.


The problem is both the low percent of the population being Hispanic and the fact that Hispanics tend not to vote very much.  Stopping them from entering the country isn't going to change much.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> Quick math. Let's say we had 1000 people.  Hispanics are 17% of the population.  In our sample, that means that there were 170 of them.  Twenty percent of them voted- that is 34. By your chart, 75% of them voted for bigger government- 25.5 Hispanics voting for bigger government.  
> 
> Whites.  75% of the population so 750 people. 40% of them voted. 300 voting. 27% of them favored bigger government by your chart. 81 white people voted for bigger government or *more than three times as many whites as Hispanics voting for it.*
> 
> Which supports my claim:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is both the low percent of the population being Hispanic and the fact that Hispanics tend not to vote very much.  Stopping them from entering the country isn't going to change much.


Chart says other wise, but you avoided the question, so I will ask it again, why do we need more welfare voters?

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## Zippyjuan

You are right. We should get rid of all of those white citizens.  For every Hispanic voter voting for big government there are 3.2 white citizens voting for it according to your own data.  If you want to get rid of voters voting for it, go after the biggest numbers which are the whites. They have been running the country for 200 years. If it is screwed up, they are the ones to blame.

It can make you feel better to blame somebody else- but the blame will be misplaced and not solve your problem.

Ron Paul agrees: 




> "*I believe Hispanics have been used as scapegoats, to say, they're the problem instead of being a symptom maybe of a problem with the welfare state,*" Paul told the group. "In Nazi Germany they had to have scapegoats to blame and they turned on the Jews.


http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb...forum-20120201

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> You are right. We should get rid of all of those white citizens.  For every Hispanic voter voting for big government there are 3.2 white citizens voting for it according to your own data.  If you want to get rid of voters voting for it, go after the biggest numbers which are the whites. They have been running the country for 200 years. If it is screwed up, they are the ones to blame.
> 
> It can make you feel better to blame somebody else- but the blame will be misplaced and not solve your problem.
> 
> Ron Paul agrees: 
> 
> 
> 
> http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb...forum-20120201


So you are avoiding the subject/question, classic tactic, pty it does not work anymore.

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## osan

> If white european culture is the "good part" of American culture, why didn't Europe get there first - or at all?


Because America parts with Europe on several basic premises.

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## osan

> German immigrants did not give "us" a moon landing.  Nazi rocket scientists were pointedly, forcibly imported to the US before the Soviets could pointedly, forcibly import them.


True, but lets face it, ours got WAY better deals.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> True, but lets face it, ours got WAY better deals.



They were great men and this nation did great along side of them.

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## pcosmar

> White citizens been voting on all that big government stuff.


Only some of them..

Half the people don't vote,, for many reasons. I doubt ethnicity has much to do with it.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> It was a boon to the economy.


It was great for a handful of elites, did it benefit you? Of course not.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> Only some of them..
> 
> Half the people don't vote,, for many reasons. I doubt ethnicity has much to do with it.


His view is "well since its already happening, it makes no difference". Total crap, why import more people who will vote against you. This is the autism.

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## Superfluous Man

> It was great for a handful of elites, did it benefit you? Of course not.


Of course it has benefitted me, as it has you most likely, and practically everyone else.

Freedom is good.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> Of course it has benefitted me, as it has you most likely, and practically everyone else.
> 
> Freedom is good.


Higher taxes
Higher crime rates
Higher welfare usage by immigrants.
Higher cost of living

And what did we get for it? Not a damn thing. Its clear you are an ideologue.

Freedom does not equal mass immigration.

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## Zippyjuan

Crime has been terrible. Sooo much higher.   Must be all the immigrants.

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## Superfluous Man

> Its clear you are an ideologue.


That's kind of the point of this website. Hence the name.

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## tod evans

> This is the autism.


Given the definition of autism, clearly 'tis you who exhibit the symptoms.

Here, read and try very hard to correlate;




> Autism spectrum disorder impacts the nervous system.
> The range and severity of symptoms can vary widely. Common symptoms include *difficulty with communication, difficulty with social interactions, obsessive interests, and repetitive behaviors.*
> Early recognition, as well as behavioral, educational, and family therapies may reduce symptoms and support development and learning.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> Crime has been terrible. Sooo much higher.   Must be all the immigrants.


http://www.americanthinker.com/artic...tizens_do.html

More over correlation does not equal causation for your data, mine how ever is built on facts.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> Given the definition of autism, clearly 'tis you who exhibit the symptoms.
> 
> Here, read and try very hard to correlate;


You just project yourself onto others. Stop, get help.

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## tod evans

> You just project yourself onto others. Stop, get help.


Come on lad...................What with your superior IQ and genetic predisposition to stellar intellectual achievements surely you can muster a coherent response to a textbook definition of a word you repeatedly use....

Try really, really hard................I'll be waiting.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> Come on lad...................What with your superior IQ and genetic predisposition to stellar intellectual achievements surely you can muster a coherent response to a textbook definition of a word you repeatedly use....
> 
> Try really, really hard................I'll be waiting.



Mean while I will be leading the charge to reduce Immigration all the while leading Operation Orion with the /POL army.

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## Ender

> Higher taxes
> Higher crime rates
> Higher welfare usage by immigrants.
> Higher cost of living
> 
> And what did we get for it? Not a damn thing. Its clear you are an ideologue.
> 
> Freedom does not equal mass immigration.


Freedom means leaving other people the hell alone.

NO welfare
NO warfare
NO WoT
NO WoD
NO FED
Gold backed money
Local communities making their own decisions.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> Freedom means leaving other people the hell alone.
> 
> NO welfare
> NO warfare
> NO WoT
> NO WoD
> NO FED
> Gold backed money
> Local communities making their own decisions.


And do we have freedom right now? No, we do not.

Do we have any of those things you listed now? No, we do not.

Are we going to get them by letting in tens of millions of more people who are opposed to them AND WILL VOTE AGAINST THEM? No, we will not.

So if you want those things we need to get stop those coming here who will vote against them, prevent the left from creating a permanent majority, or else NOTHING will matter as you will just be out voted EVERY time.

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## tod evans

> And do we have freedom right now? No, we do not.
> 
> Do we have any of those things you listed now? No, we do not.
> 
> Are we going to get them by letting in tens of millions of more people who are opposed to them AND WILL VOTE AGAINST THEM? No, we will not.
> 
> So if you want those things we need to get stop those coming here who will vote against them, prevent the left from creating a permanent majority, or else NOTHING will matter as you will just be out voted EVERY time.


Because your government is infallible right?

Just like when you elected Obama........And just like you'll keep electing tyrants unless patriots stand up to you and your big government ways.

It doesn't matter which figurehead you place at the podium the simple fact that there are more government employees than manufacturing employees spells disaster for you big government types..

Learn to fend for yourself and your family and stop expecting government to take care of you...

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## Ender

> And do we have freedom right now? No, we do not.
> 
> Do we have any of those things you listed now? No, we do not.
> 
> Are we going to get them by letting in tens of millions of more people who are opposed to them AND WILL VOTE AGAINST THEM? No, we will not.
> 
> So if you want those things we need to get stop those coming here who will vote against them, prevent the left from creating a permanent majority, or else NOTHING will matter as you will just be out voted EVERY time.


There is NO LEFT OR RIGHT. We are enslaved by a coercive gov that wants us to think there is a difference (there is not) and not by immigrants.

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## merkelstan

> There is NO LEFT OR RIGHT. We are enslaved by a coercive gov that wants us to think there is a difference (there is not) and not by immigrants.


Yah but trump isn't their puppet.  That's what the whole sh1tstorm is about in the first place.  

Does Trump have a chance to fix the economy?  Not with his current plans.  Can he stop the Titanic from hitting the Iceberg Russia?  There's some hope of that.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> Because your government is infallible right?
> 
> Just like when you elected Obama........And just like you'll keep electing tyrants unless patriots stand up to you and your big government ways.
> 
> It doesn't matter which figurehead you place at the podium the simple fact that there are more government employees than manufacturing employees spells disaster for you big government types..
> 
> Learn to fend for yourself and your family and stop expecting government to take care of you...




And how are you going to do that when you are out voted EVERY SINGLE TIME?

This is why you guys will never achieve anything, you fail to take reality into account.

I expect the government to do its job, to secure our borders, repeal invaders and enforce the laws of the land.

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## RestorationOfLiberty

> There is NO LEFT OR RIGHT. We are enslaved by a coercive gov that wants us to think there is a difference (there is not) and not by immigrants.



Their voting habits prove other wise.

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## merkelstan

> repeal invaders


"repel"

----------


## tod evans

> I expect the government to do its job,


Boy you're a bright one aren't you?

Your government has lots of "jobs" some include flying, busing and boating "foreign refugees" into the USA and then using tax dollars to house/clothe and feed them..

Another of your governments jobs is to protect said foreigners from such evils as "hate speech" or "discrimination".

While yet another is to extract lucre from the productive class to pay for their programs, if you ever work for a living you'll see what I'm typing about....

Your government also makes it "illegal" to not teach classes in foreign languages in certain publix skools in order to accommodate the foreigners they bring in with tax-dollars..

Your government, the one that you want to do it's job.........

And there are literally semi-trucks full of printed legislation that describe exactly what their "job" is.....

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> Yah but trump isn't their puppet.  That's what the whole sh1tstorm is about in the first place.  
> 
> Does Trump have a chance to fix the economy?  Not with his current plans.  Can he stop the Titanic from hitting the Iceberg Russia?  There's some hope of that.


He will have to clean out the deep state, purges might be coming.

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> Boy you're a bright one aren't you?
> 
> Your government has lots of "jobs" some include flying, busing and boating "foreign refugees" into the USA and then using tax dollars to house/clothe and feed them..
> 
> Another of your governments jobs is to protect said foreigners from such evils as "hate speech" or "discrimination".
> 
> While yet another is to extract lucre from the productive class to pay for their programs, if you ever work for a living you'll see what I'm typing about....
> 
> Your government also makes it "illegal" to not teach classes in foreign languages in certain publix skools in order to accommodate the foreigners they bring in with tax-dollars..
> ...


Cant find any of that in Act 1 Section 8, therefore it is not valid while Protecting the nation and securing its borders is, but hey you have autism.

----------


## merkelstan

> He will have to clean out the deep state, purges might be coming.


Now that's an interesting statement.  I can't give you the full background... for reasons.  But Erdogan just purged the subversive forces in Turkey.  That was a serious business - tens of thousands jailed.  Do I see Trump fielding this kind of action?  Um no....

----------


## RestorationOfLiberty

> Now that's an interesting statement.  I can't give you the full background... for reasons.  But Erdogan just purged the subversive forces in Turkey.  That was a serious business - tens of thousands jailed.  Do I see Trump fielding this kind of action?  Um no....


He is an Islamic Thug, so the idea that they were the "bad guys" is some what subjective.

Give him time to understand what must be done.

----------

