# News & Current Events > Economy & Markets >  The retail apocalypse has officially descended on America

## timosman

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-r...america-2017-3




> Mar. 21, 2017 by Hayley Peterson
> 
> Thousands of mall-based stores are shutting down in what's fast becoming one of the biggest waves of retail closures in decades.
> 
> More than 3,500 stores are expected to close in the next couple of months.
> 
> Department stores like JCPenney, Macy's, Sears, and Kmart are among the companies shutting down stores, along with middle-of-the-mall chains like Crocs, BCBG, Abercrombie & Fitch, and Guess.
> 
> Some retailers are exiting the brick-and-mortar business altogether and trying to shift to an all-online model.
> ...

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## opal

There are a couple of dead malls here - one got built and never opened - they tried to make it a sports complex.. then something medical - I think it's just a big empty eyesore with a huge parking lot now.  Wasn't there a developer that was turning some in bigger cities into apartment complexes?

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## ILUVRP

amazon is going to put a lot more out of business before its over , with amazon prime you get a lot of free shipping , a lot with no taxes , easy returns if you don't want or like the item .

walmart will be more and more like amazon or they will be in trouble .

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## timosman

> amazon is going to put a lot more out of business before its over , with amazon prime you get a lot of free shipping , a lot with no taxes , easy returns if you don't want or like the item .
> 
> walmart will be more and more like amazon or they will be in trouble .


Blockbuster vs. Netflix 2.0

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## oyarde

It is sad in a way . Pull into a town of 40k and no longer a Sears , Kmart , JC Pennies or a family owned hardware store . Save me money in the long run though , I do not really need anything and I do not shop online . The remainder of america will just buy all the cheap chinese crap they like online and I will mess around the farm.

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## CaptUSA

They will use all these bricks and mortar to build the wall.  All part of the 33D chess plan...

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## dannno

> They will use all these bricks and mortar to build the wall.  All part of the 33D chess plan...


You could teach CPUd a thing or two. 

Trump will pick a design for the wall using at least 90% recycled materials, just to piss off the left.

Sorta like how Obama pissed off the right by calling his socialist healthcare choices a "marketplace"

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## oyarde

> You could teach CPUd a thing or two. 
> 
> Trump will pick a design for the wall using at least 90% recycled materials, just to piss off the left.
> 
> Sorta like how Obama pissed off the right by calling his socialist healthcare choices a "marketplace"


The Obama marketplace . Yeah , that is funny . Like grocery shopping in the old Soviet union.

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## oyarde

If I did need a clothing item , I could just shop at a second hand store and get a new item . Since all of the lazy ass americans just donate all the crap they buy online that does not fit . Online shopping has doubled or tripled the second hand stores around here .

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## oyarde

Just remember that purchase of the new item donated to the second hand store was likely tax subsidized ( say , 70 percent ) . Since only 6 in 10 americans work and only 3 of those six do not receive more benefits in return than what they pay .

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## undergroundrr

I'd love to see an analysis of how much state and local sales taxes have contributed to this state of affairs.

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## Schifference

Our cat tower recently broke. The one we had was purchased in a brick and mortar store I think Petco. We saved big $$ by purchasing a new one online with free shipping. Arrived in two days. Imagine going to store and seeing big bulky boxes and trying to look at the pictures. Go online see many items. Read all the bad reviews, make a choice and that is it.

There is hardly anything besides food that I need bad enough that I cannot wait for. All it takes is a little planning. Going into a store is a drag for me.

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## opal

> I'd love to see an analysis of how much state and local sales taxes have contributed to this state of affairs.


not to mention business licenses, facility rent prices and employee costs vs just warehousing and postage
It's probably a good time to own a trucking company

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## timosman

> It's probably a good time to own a trucking an oil company


FTFY

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## Brian4Liberty

> Others, such as Sears and JCPenney, are aggressively paring down their store counts to unload unprofitable locations and try to staunch losses.


Reasonable strategy. No need to keep a location open if it *loses* money, and management is unable to turn it around.

The positives of a brick and mortar location are that people can browse, viewing the actual item, and they can get something immediately. That is obvious. What is less obvious is that the real stores help the online store, in that people can return items easily, and they can find something they like at the store, and then order a size or color online that was not available.

The combination of store and online shopping together make it advantageous to keep a store open, even if it breaks even. Nordstrom's seems to be doing a good job with that model.

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## Carlybee

All part of being an instant gratification society. Even adolescents don't need no stinking mall.they have whatever latest teenybopper social media is out there. I personally hate shopping myself, so I do it all online for the most part. Going places is going the way of the dodo bird.

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## Madison320

> The Obama marketplace . Yeah , that is funny . Like grocery shopping in the ls Soviet union.


That's almost as funny as when Obama say's "We're going to *ask* the rich to pay their *fair share*."

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## Madison320

> Our cat tower recently broke. The one we had was purchased in a brick and mortar store I think Petco. We saved big $$ by purchasing a new one online with free shipping. Arrived in two days. Imagine going to store and seeing big bulky boxes and trying to look at the pictures. Go online see many items. Read all the bad reviews, make a choice and that is it.
> 
> There is hardly anything besides food that I need bad enough that I cannot wait for. All it takes is a little planning. Going into a store is a drag for me.


I live in a relatively small town and I've noticed that there's a lot of stuff now that you HAVE to order online because the local stores quit carrying it.

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## opal

The more we order online, the better they can track / profile us
I kinda like shopping at the various stores, with cash

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## Schifference

> I live in a relatively small town and I've noticed that there's a lot of stuff now that you HAVE to order online because the local stores quit carrying it.


The likelihood of going into Home Depot and walking out with a full size fridge, stove, or many appliances are slim. Nowadays they have display and you place your order for pickup or delivery at a date in the future. In days of old a person would go to the general merchant who would order the item and make their cut. Now hardly anyone stocks the item. Most things are drop shipped directly from manufacturer. Even online purchases. The seller never even touches the product.

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## Madison320

> The likelihood of going into Home Depot and walking out with a full size fridge, stove, or many appliances are slim. Nowadays they have display and you place your order for pickup or delivery at a date in the future. In days of old a person would go to the general merchant who would order the item and make their cut. Now hardly anyone stocks the item. Most things are drop shipped directly from manufacturer. Even online purchases. The seller never even touches the product.


At some point I'm expecting the dollar to tank and gas prices to skyrocket. I'm wondering what that'll do to online shopping.  I'm guessing at some point Amazon is going to have a minimum order for free shipping. Maybe $50-$100. I wouldn't mind that, I almost feel guilty buying something for $5.

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## TheTexan

> There are a couple of dead malls here - one got built and never opened - they tried to make it a sports complex.. then something medical - I think it's just a big empty eyesore with a huge parking lot now.  Wasn't there a developer that was turning some in bigger cities into apartment complexes?


Apartments??  Living in a mall would be AWESOME

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## TheCount

> All part of being an instant gratification society. Even adolescents don't need no stinking mall.they have whatever latest teenybopper social media is out there. I personally hate shopping myself, so I do it all online for the most part. Going places is going the way of the dodo bird.


Wouldn't malls better serve an instant gratification society?

Traditional one-building malls that are 100% retail are not doing well, but mixed shopping areas with entertainment and activities built in are booming.  That's why new malls that you see around are typically outdoor malls with mostly smaller stores and which include non-shopping things to do... adult arcades, restaurants, movie theaters, gyms and other athletic facilities, etc.   A store like Sears doesn't fit into a place like that, and they're too hung up on their traditional 'department store' strategy.   Doesn't seem like that will work anymore.

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## TheCount

> Apartments??  Living in a mall would be AWESOME


For some reason I don't understand that's actually really popular...  this is the new mall near why I live in Columbia, SC.  There's condos over the stores and apartment complexes tucked in behind the retail buildings.

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## phill4paul

> Apartments??  Living in a mall would be AWESOME


  I watched a short on this the other day. A guy took some second floor space and created "tiny apartments." About 200 sq. ft. They had bathrooms, but do to codes no kitchens other than a convection oven/microwave. I think they went for $500 a month. All the units were taken and the people that lived there liked it. Mostly interns/students. They liked the convenience of having a coffee shop,bakery and a Chinese restaurant on the lower level food court. It was in a big city so I imagine any apt. rent was $1k or greater.

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## Carlybee

> Wouldn't malls better serve an instant gratification society?
> 
> Traditional one-building malls that are 100% retail are not doing well, but mixed shopping areas with entertainment and activities built in are booming.  That's why new malls that you see around are typically outdoor malls with mostly smaller stores and which include non-shopping things to do... adult arcades, restaurants, movie theaters, gyms and other athletic facilities, etc.   A store like Sears doesn't fit into a place like that, and they're too hung up on their traditional 'department store' strategy.   Doesn't seem like that will work anymore.


They WERE the original instant gratification shopping venue before the internet and smartphones.

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## Carlybee

> Apartments??  Living in a mall would be AWESOME


Let's buy one for our Galt Gulch project. I can go $5.99.

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## phill4paul

> Let's buy one for our Galt Gulch project. I can go $5.99.


  Actually, that's a cool idea. Plenty of square footage for "tiny" home sq. footage. Food court for public access restaurants. If you have skylights you can have gardens. You can have gardens without skylights . Any number of trade smith shops. Acres of kill zone around the parameter. How much does a mall cost?

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## tod evans

> Let's buy one for our Galt Gulch project. I can go $5.99.


I don't want any part in the concrete jungle.

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## Superfluous Man

Let's stop trying to prevent millions of new retail shoppers from coming here from other countries then.

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## undergroundrr

> Let's stop trying to prevent millions of new retail shoppers from coming here from other countries then.


We don't want them in our malls. They might buy something, decrease supply and drive prices up for regular working Americans. And THE STENCH!

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## Superfluous Man

> We don't want them in our malls. They might buy something, decrease supply and drive prices up for regular working Americans. And THE STENCH!


"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to undergroundrr again."

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## tod evans

> We don't want them in our malls. They might buy something, decrease supply and drive prices up for regular working Americans. And THE STENCH!


They're not my malls!

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## oyarde

> Let's stop trying to prevent millions of new retail shoppers from coming here from other countries then.


I would put malls in the wall , make a killing .lol

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## TheCount

> Let's stop trying to prevent millions of new retail shoppers from coming here from other countries then.


The alt-right probably thinks that malls work the same way they think the labor market works, which means that if there's more people in the country, then stores will run out of things for Real Americans to buy because it'll all be bought by no-good dirty immigrants/tourists instead.

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## timosman

> The alt-right probably thinks that malls work the same way they think the labor market works, which means that if there's more people in the country, then stores will run out of things for Real Americans to buy because it'll all be bought by no-good dirty immigrants/tourists instead.


This is where NIMBY comes to play.

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## Carlybee

> They're not my malls!


Muh malls

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## oyarde

> The alt-right probably thinks that malls work the same way they think the labor market works, which means that if there's more people in the country, then stores will run out of things for Real Americans to buy because it'll all be bought by no-good dirty immigrants/tourists instead.


There are so few Real Americans left , I doubt they even shop in malls.

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## AZJoe

> Let's stop trying to prevent millions of new retail shoppers from coming here from other countries then.


Lets stop preventing millions of current retail shoppers from being able to spend their own money - end the income tax.

Let's stop millions of retail sellers from being forced to charge higher prices - end the income tax.

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## Zippyjuan

> Lets stop preventing millions of current retail shoppers from being able to spend their own money - end the income tax.
> 
> Let's stop millions of retail sellers from being forced to charge higher prices - end the income tax.


The problem is competition- it is easier and usually cheaper to shop online. Or at Walmart.

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## Superfluous Man

> Lets stop preventing millions of current retail shoppers from being able to spend their own money - end the income tax.
> 
> Let's stop millions of retail sellers from being forced to charge higher prices - end the income tax.


It's not either/or. We should do all of the above.

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## Dforkus

I'm glad there is a Frye's electronics near my house. Their prices are generally as good as online, and sometimes I decide I need something, I just want to go to a store and get it..

It's also a reason to get out of the house.

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## devil21

> They will use all these bricks and mortar to build the wall.  All part of the 33D chess plan...


Lots of available FEMA camp structures too.

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## angelatc

> I would put malls in the wall , make a killing .lol


You could call it WallMart.

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## LibertyRevolution

The only time I go to a retail store is to check out something I am thinking about buying online before I buy it.

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## oyarde

I am going to a store today to buy a new Speed Queen washing machine . As much as it costs it should be Speed King .

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## invisible

> I'm glad there is a Frye's electronics near my house. Their prices are generally as good as online, and sometimes I decide I need something, I just want to go to a store and get it..
> 
> It's also a reason to get out of the house.


That's great to know!  I wouldn't mind picking up a Marantz 4270 or Sansui 9090DB.  I need another pair of Polk SDA-series speakers, too.  How's their vinyl selection?

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## osan

> http://www.businessinsider.com/the-r...america-2017-3


This might be the time to get into the demolition racket.  Seriously.  If thousands of malls are going to go the way of the dodo, and it now appears to be a distinct possibility, something will have to be done with all that real estate.  I suppose they could all just be left to rot, but there are problems with that non-solution, not the least of which is liability for towns that leave such rotting hulks on place where less-desirables congregate and "innocent" children get hurt, or worse.

The tax loss to cities and other communities stand to be large, which is possibly a good thing because those entities either get seriously hurt (good) or they put the heavy screws to the rest of the property owners, which may be good in the longer run - though I doubt it - in that if things get bad enough, people might come to their senses...

NAAAAAAAAHHHHH...

I admit I find this all very fascinating, particularly how well the instinct for self-preservation appears to have been so deeply suppressed in the average man.  This frogs-in-a-pot thing _really_ does work, it seems.

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## osan

> I am going to a store today to buy a new Speed Queen washing machine . As much as it costs it should be Speed King .


But that would be raycis against gaymosekshuls.  Someone is going to report you, mark my words.

Now, had you suggested it be called "Speed Screaming Queen", you may have escaped the knotty fate that surely awaits you.

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## merkelstan

> You could call it WallMart.


<grin>

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## devil21

> This might be the time to get into the demolition racket.  Seriously.  If thousands of malls are going to go the way of the dodo, and it now appears to be a distinct possibility, something will have to be done with all that real estate.  I suppose they could all just be left to rot, but there are problems with that non-solution, not the least of which is liability for towns that leave such rotting hulks on place where less-desirables congregate and "innocent" children get hurt, or worse.
> 
> The tax loss to cities and other communities stand to be large, which is possibly a good thing because those entities either get seriously hurt (good) or they put the heavy screws to the rest of the property owners, which may be good in the longer run - though I doubt it - in that if things get bad enough, people might come to their senses...
> 
> NAAAAAAAAHHHHH...
> 
> I admit I find this all very fascinating, particularly how well the instinct for self-preservation appears to have been so deeply suppressed in the average man.  This frogs-in-a-pot thing _really_ does work, it seems.


A large mall went defunct in my area a few years ago.  The city spent many millions to buy the property, with the promise of it being converted into a movie studio, park area, etc.  Lots of big promises by city council.  The only thing that actually happened was the owner got bailed out of his bad investment, the city spent a bunch of $$$, the mall was used as a SWAT and military training playground for a while and then was demolished.  The land has sat empty since and hosts swap meets on the weekends.  A fine appropriation of millions of taxpayer money, for sure.  It'll probably end up being turned into yet another agenda 21/2030 stack and pack apartment complex at some point.  I'd expect the same sort of story for the rest of the malls that go under in the near future.

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## Suzanimal

> Wouldn't malls better serve an instant gratification society?
> 
> Traditional one-building malls that are 100% retail are not doing well, but mixed shopping areas with entertainment and activities built in are booming.  That's why new malls that you see around are typically outdoor malls with mostly smaller stores and which include non-shopping things to do... adult arcades, restaurants, movie theaters, gyms and other athletic facilities, etc.   A store like Sears doesn't fit into a place like that, and they're too hung up on their traditional 'department store' strategy.   Doesn't seem like that will work anymore.


That's what's happening around here. The traditional mall stores (the smaller ones) are opening up in nicer versions of strip malls. Most of them have some nice restaurants and  a theater close by. Which, btw, have really gotten nice. They turned the "old" one near us into a $2.00 theater for stale movies and the new one has recliners and a bar. Pretty sweet set up.

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## KrokHead

Malls are always full of people, overpriced junk, and they lose money.  I buy everything on the internet except food.

Ebates, Raise, coupon code...  If you are not using the internet you are getting swindled.

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## timosman

> Malls are always full of people, overpriced junk, and they lose money.  I buy everything on the internet except food.
> 
> Ebates, Raise, coupon code...  If you are not using the internet you are getting swindled.


Actually couple of my recent purchases were made at a west coast electronic store chain. Nobody online could match the prices. Plus the convenience of dealing locally can not be overestimated when making a return/exchange.

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## Suzanimal

> Malls are always full of people, overpriced junk, and they lose money.  I buy everything on the internet except food.
> 
> Ebates, Raise, coupon code...  If you are not using the internet you are getting swindled.


It depends on what I'm buying but for the most part, I agree. FWTW, Some box stores will price match online prices _but_ you miss out on the coupon code/ebate.

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## oyarde

> Actually couple of my recent purchases were made at a west coast electronic store chain. Nobody online could match the prices. Plus the convenience of dealing locally can not be overestimated when making a return/exchange.


I have not been buying anything in person that I could do better with on the net . Probably depends on what kind of things people buy .

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## tod evans

> I have not been buying anything in person that I could do better with on the net . Probably depends on what kind of things people buy .


I needed a 1-1/4" one-way valve for one of my compressors last week, closest one was over 100 miles each way and $75.00, amazon got it here for less than 1/2 price in 2 days..

It's hard to beat

[edit]

Same USA made product, less than 1/2 price delivered to the door.

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## helmuth_hubener

> Going into a store is a drag for me.





> All part of being an instant gratification society. ... I personally hate shopping myself, so I do it all online for the most part. Going places is going the way of the dodo bird.


Our temperaments have definitely changed, quantifiably, and this is one of the manifestations.  People are less social.  More loners.  Tons of factors that have caused this -- interstate highway system, higher education serving as a siphon to suck talent out of towns and into metros, a massive incoming peasant migration from places with very, very alien cultures, and government policies actively destroying and subsuming the role of family and church.  All of which adds up to the reality that: Today, you probably do not relate to and share lots in common with your immediate neighbors.  You feel no particular affinity towards them.  You are a stranger on your own street.  You don't have a shared life experience. You don't wake up at the same time in the morning and walk to the same job.  You don't have barbecues together.  Your kids don't walk to and from school together.  You don't see each other at church every week.

You have a closer emotional connection with Conan O-Brien and the characters in the Game of Thrones than you do with anyone whose house you can see out your window.  Far closer.  

This is a bizarre situation, precedented by previous civilization collapses, but probably never to this extent.  People don't like going out.  Even to go shopping.  When they _are_ out they're on their geejaw.  People are recluses.  Non-social and anti-social.  It's introversion rigorized and systematized.

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## Suzanimal

> Our temperaments have definitely changed, quantifiably, and this is one of the manifestations.  People are less social.  More loners.  Tons of factors that have caused this -- interstate highway system, higher education serving as a siphon to suck talent out of towns and into metros, a massive incoming peasant migration, and government policies actively destroying and subsuming the role of family and church.  All of which adds up to the reality that: Today, you probably do not relate to and share lots in common with your immediate neighbors.  You feel no particular affinity towards them.  You don't have a shared life experience. You don't wake up at the same time in the morning and walk to the same job.  You don't have barbecues together.  Your kids don't walk to and from school together.  You don't see each other at church every week.
> 
> You have a closer emotional connection with Conan O-Brien and the characters in the Game of Thrones than you do with anyone whose house you can see out your window.  Far closer.  
> 
> This is a bizarre situation, precedented by previous civilization collapses, but probably never to this extent.  People don't like going out.  Even to go shopping.  When they _are_ out they're on their geejaw.  People are recluses.  Non-social and anti-social.  It's introversion rigorized and systematized.


That's just sad. I was thinking about not going out tonight but now I feel like I have to so I'm not one of those people.

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## helmuth_hubener

> That's just sad. I was thinking about not going out tonight but now I feel like I have to so I'm not one of those people.


  Just don't bring your cell phone!

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## Suzanimal

> Just don't bring your cell phone!




Meh, I only use it for emergencies. Surprisingly, I'm not one of those people. 

And it is a free wine tasting, after all. Mr Animal was shocked when I told him I might not go, lol.

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## RJ Liberty

One of the major problems I have with online shopping is that the money doesn't stay local. Even in a retail chain, some of the money stays local to pay the workers in the store. Not so with online shopping. I hate to see what's happened in the gutting of American retail: department stores, bookstores, hundreds of chains out of business, and independents unable to survive. It'll be hard for my children to find part-time jobs when it comes time for them to earn some money.

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## Madison320

> One of the major problems I have with online shopping is that the money doesn't stay local. Even in a retail chain, some of the money stays local to pay the workers in the store. Not so with online shopping. I hate to see what's happened in the gutting of American retail: department stores, bookstores, hundreds of chains out of business, and independents unable to survive. It'll be hard for my children to find part-time jobs when it comes time for them to earn some money.


It doesn't matter. Local retailers will find something else to do. If online shopping is more productive, it's ultimately better for everyone. It's the same, flawed "automation is bad" argument.

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## tod evans

> One of the major problems I have with online shopping is that the money doesn't stay local. Even in a retail chain, some of the money stays local to pay the workers in the store. Not so with online shopping. I hate to see what's happened in the gutting of American retail: department stores, bookstores, hundreds of chains out of business, and independents unable to survive. It'll be hard for my children to find part-time jobs when it comes time for them to earn some money.


I had my retail side shut down by Amazon 2003ish........

They were selling Portercable tools to the public for the same money I could buy a pallet full to try and resell..Delta and Powermatic same thing....

About the time American tool manufacturers started importing they started mass-merchandising too....

Other industries have all gone the same way...

Retailing foreign $#@! is just the tail end of the problem....

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## Madison320

> That's what's happening around here. The traditional mall stores (the smaller ones) are opening up in nicer versions of strip malls. Most of them have some nice restaurants and  a theater close by. Which, btw, have really gotten nice. They turned the "old" one near us into a $2.00 theater for stale movies and the new one has recliners and a bar. Pretty sweet set up.


Same here. We had a huge outdoor mall built a few years ago. I just noticed the other day that they are bulldozing the old indoor mall. 

When were indoor malls invented? 30 years ago maybe? I went the entire life cycle of indoor malls without hardly ever setting foot in one.

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## Suzanimal

> Same here. We had a huge outdoor mall built a few years ago. I just noticed the other day that they are bulldozing the old indoor mall. 
> 
> When were indoor malls invented? 30 years ago maybe? I went the entire life cycle of indoor malls without hardly ever setting foot in one.


Longer than that. I think the mall culture peaked in the early-mid 1980's but they were around way before then. The mall I grew up with opened in 1959 and it's one of the few left in Atlanta that's still strong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenox_Square

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## RJ Liberty

> It doesn't matter. Local retailers will find something else to do. If online shopping is more productive, it's ultimately better for everyone.


I don't buy that. "It's better for everyone" is a crappy argument. "Local retailers will find something else to do" coldly ignores the fact that real people are being driven out of business to push a global economy. If my kids can't find a part-time job outside of fast food, that's a problem. 




> It's the same, flawed "automation is bad" argument.


Wasn't part of the automation argument that it would save lives by making people more safe? So that they didn't have to work in unsafe factories? In the case of retail jobs, just who is being protected from unsafe working conditions?

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## tod evans

Kids working in stores selling goods their parents made is how this country was built...

Kids working in stores selling goods some of their parents unload from ships isn't an improvement.

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## phill4paul

> Kids working in stores selling goods their parents made is how this country was built...
> 
> Kids working in stores selling goods some of their parents unload from ships isn't an improvement.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tod evans again.

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## RJ Liberty

> I had my retail side shut down by Amazon 2003ish........
> 
> They were selling Portercable tools to the public for the same money I could buy a pallet full to try and resell..Delta and Powermatic same thing....
> 
> About the time American tool manufacturers started importing they started mass-merchandising too....
> 
> Other industries have all gone the same way...
> 
> Retailing foreign $#@! is just the tail end of the problem....


Well, and it doesn't help that our gov is subsidizing Amazon, to the tune of billions of dollars a year... which Amazon then uses to drive locals out of business.

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## Madison320

> I don't buy that. "It's better for everyone" is a crappy argument. "Local retailers will find something else to do" coldly ignores the fact that real people are being driven out of business to push a global economy. If my kids can't find a part-time job outside of fast food, that's a problem. 
> 
> 
> Wasn't part of the automation argument that it would save lives by making people more safe? So that they didn't have to work in unsafe factories? In the case of retail jobs, just who is being protected from unsafe working conditions?


I'm exhausted from arguing against protectionism the last few weeks. Just name one country that improved its standard of living by switching to a more protectionist economy.

Here's a good article about what happened when the Philippines switched from a free trade to protectionist economy. They went being one of the richest to one of the poorest countries in the far east.

http://reason.com/archives/1994/06/0...two-countries/

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## RJ Liberty

Hey guys, it's "ultimately better for everyone" if millions of brick and mortar businesses go out of business! Then everyone can get a great job doing... um...

That's the problem with people who will tell you it "doesn't matter" if millions of people have been driven out of business. "They'll find something else", they bleat. What exactly that is they don't mention. They'll minimize the problem, saying they rarely set foot in a mall; of course, most retail establishments were never _in_ malls to begin with.

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## tod evans

> I'm exhausted from arguing against protectionism the last few weeks. Just name one country that improved its standard of living by switching to a more protectionist economy.


Protectionism is government stopping local people from killing and looting foreigners who would infringe on their livelihood. 

Not as you would argue.....

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> Meh, I only use it for emergencies. Surprisingly, I'm not one of those people. .


 No, I know.  Writing, I was thinking of your story of your friend who kept fiddling with here phone the whole time she was supposed to be eating lunch with you.    Oh, what have we come to?

----------


## Madison320

> Protectionism is government stopping local people from killing and looting foreigners who would *infringe* on their livelihood. 
> 
> Not as you would argue.....


In this case your use of the word *infringe* means "by offering a better product".

Just tell me where this has ever worked.

----------


## timosman

> In this case your use of the word *infringe* means "by offering a better product".
> 
> Just tell me where this has ever worked.


Beverly Hills, Monaco, Switzerland, etc ....

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> "by offering a better product".


 That is a key.

Because, interestingly, for the most part offshoring does not offer a better product than historically.

That's not the whole problem, though.  American-made products began seriously declining in quality, too, decades ago.

So, it's just been a race to the bottom.  And people have adjusted to that reality.  No one expects to buy a product once and keep it for years.  They expect everything to be junk.  They know -- they _know_ -- by experience that it will be.  And so the entire economy has rearranged itself around this reality.

Now, to re-rearrange it back to sanity, is shutting the doors on imports the whole solution?  Would that do it?  Just as you say, Madison320: definitely not.

The big thing that needs to happen is:

*Start offering a better product!*

As a nation, start making high-quality products again!

That, my friends, is the solution.

Incidentally, it is the solution for retail as well.  Offer a better product.  Hire better people.  Refuse to hire surly people, refuse to hire morons.  Design better policies and procedures.  Make shopping a joy.  Make the experience a thing of beauty.

You know whose brick and mortar retail stores are _not_ failing?  Ironically, a computer company's: Apple.  Who else is doing very well?  Chick-Fil-A.  Menards.  These companies cracked the nut and figured out the secret.  It's not exactly new and it's not exactly a secret, but here it is again:

Offer a better product!

----------


## tod evans

> In this case your use of the word *infringe* means "by offering a better product".
> 
> Just tell me where this has ever worked.


No my use of the word "infringe" doesn't mean what you say.

Why would you advocate for a government that protects importers and retailers over manufacturers?

I advocate for no government intervention.

----------


## timosman



----------


## opal

The mall parking lot here is usually barren.. occasionally there are a few senior buses getting their group walks where it's air conditioned.. too hot to get seniors out for a walk most of the year here

----------


## tod evans

> Hire better people.  Refuse to hire surly people, refuse to hire morons.


EEO/quotas........


[edit]

This fine person must be given equal value in your hearing aid store;



And these fine folks may scream racism if you don't hire them in your pew manufacturing business;

----------


## oyarde

I have great products and great prices and will continue to prosper . I sell nothing on the net .

----------


## Carlybee

> Our temperaments have definitely changed, quantifiably, and this is one of the manifestations.  People are less social.  More loners.  Tons of factors that have caused this -- interstate highway system, higher education serving as a siphon to suck talent out of towns and into metros, a massive incoming peasant migration from places with very, very alien cultures, and government policies actively destroying and subsuming the role of family and church.  All of which adds up to the reality that: Today, you probably do not relate to and share lots in common with your immediate neighbors.  You feel no particular affinity towards them.  You are a stranger on your own street.  You don't have a shared life experience. You don't wake up at the same time in the morning and walk to the same job.  You don't have barbecues together.  Your kids don't walk to and from school together.  You don't see each other at church every week.
> 
> You have a closer emotional connection with Conan O-Brien and the characters in the Game of Thrones than you do with anyone whose house you can see out your window.  Far closer.  
> 
> This is a bizarre situation, precedented by previous civilization collapses, but probably never to this extent.  People don't like going out.  Even to go shopping.  When they _are_ out they're on their geejaw.  People are recluses.  Non-social and anti-social.  It's introversion rigorized and systematized.


We are social...just differently social. Thank the interwebs. We can stop being social by hitting the escape key. Not so easy to escape your busy body neighbor. Going shopping where I live, in the middle of a large city, involves traffic and having to be on your guard. Not to mention having to deal with crowds. So yeah..it's a trade off. That being said, the malls here are okay for now, although they are giving way to the outdoor shopping/entertainment centers.

----------


## Madison320

> No my use of the word "infringe" doesn't mean what you say.
> 
> Why would you advocate for a government that protects importers and retailers over manufacturers?
> 
> I advocate for no government intervention.


Me too.

----------


## phill4paul

> I have great products and great prices and will continue to prosper . I sell nothing on the net .


  My product is me, my price is a steal. I sell nothing on the internet either. I am, however, thinking in another 20 yrs. I might have to try a different approach.

----------


## euphemia

Sears and Kmart also had auto shops.  Amazon can't cover that.

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> Sears and Kmart also had auto shops.  Amazon can't cover that.


https://getwrench.com/

They just raised $4 million.

----------


## TheCount

> Sears and Kmart also had auto shops.  Amazon can't cover that.


Auto repair places and dealers are doing fine, sales and revenue wise.

The problem affecting Sears and Kmart isn't 'the retail apocalypse.'  It's that nobody likes Sears and Kmart.  They failed to adapt, and they're paying for it.  Nobody calls Radio Shack's bankruptcies 'the electronic apocalypse' or assumes that sales of electronics are down because Radio Shack is doing poorly.

----------


## opal

I really prefer kmart to walmarx

----------


## oyarde

> I really prefer kmart to walmarx


I always liked it better. Mostly because it was easier and quicker to get in and out . We no longer have Sears and Kmart nearby . I do not really use walmart, worst service ever.

----------


## oyarde

> Auto repair places and dealers are doing fine, sales and revenue wise.
> 
> The problem affecting Sears and Kmart isn't 'the retail apocalypse.'  It's that nobody likes Sears and Kmart.  They failed to adapt, and they're paying for it.  Nobody calls Radio Shack's bankruptcies 'the electronic apocalypse' or assumes that sales of electronics are down because Radio Shack is doing poorly.


I used to buy some auto parts stocks . Always figured it would fair better than most in recessions .

----------


## TheCount

> Always figured it would fair better than most in recessions .


Depends.  The problem now is that warranties are longer and a lot of people don't keep their cars beyond the term of the warranty.  I think the population that's actually working on their cars and getting them fixed at non-dealership places (Firestone, local shops, etc.) is smaller than it used to be.  Means the dealers hold on to a lot more business.

----------


## RJ Liberty

> Auto repair places and dealers are doing fine, sales and revenue wise.
> 
> The problem affecting Sears and Kmart isn't 'the retail apocalypse.'  It's that nobody likes Sears and Kmart.


That's too simplistic. You can say "nobody likes Sears and Kmart" (which have lost 700 stores in recent years), but did nobody _also_ like Montgomery Wards (500 store closures), B. Dalton (800 store closures), Mervyn's (200 store closures), Waldenbooks (1,200 store closures), Goody's (500 store closures), Borders (625 store closures), JCPenney (140 store closures), Hastings Entertainment (150 store closures), Gap (190 stores), Radio Shack (3,000 store closures), Crown Books (200 store closures), Macy's (100 store closures), Payless (500 store closures), and thousands of other chain retail outlets that have shuttered in the US? You can't lose that many retail stores in one country and expect the economy to somehow recover; Macy's alone will lay off 38,000 employees this year. These massive retail die-offs, which have grown larger and larger since 2001, often have little to do with what people like and don't like. They're forced out of business by our own government, which is using taxpayer money to contract with Amazon for $600,000,000. That's money that Amazon then uses to put _more_ retailers out of business. Our money.

The more people listen to the talking heads saying these establishments "failed to adapt" while ignoring the fact that our own government is a major patron of Amazon's massive profit mechanism, the more we'll continue to see once-massive retailers go bankrupt, and continue to see our own neighborhoods decline as brick-and-mortar stores become history.

----------


## TheCount

> That's too simplistic. You can say "nobody likes Sears and Kmart" (which have lost 700 stores in recent years), but did nobody _also_ like Montgomery Wards (500 store closures), B. Dalton (800 store closures), Mervyn's (200 store closures), Waldenbooks (1,200 store closures), Goody's (500 store closures), Borders (625 store closures), JCPenney (140 store closures), Hastings Entertainment (150 store closures), Gap (190 stores), Radio Shack (3,000 store closures), Crown Books (200 store closures), Macy's (100 store closures), Payless (500 store closures), and thousands of other chain retail outlets that have shuttered in the US?


Ask any person under 30 which of those stores they have or would shop at given the opportunity.

----------


## devil21

> Ask any person under 30 which of those stores they have or would shop at given the opportunity.


You mean prior to Amazon and smartphones?  

Let's be real, shall we?  People in their 20's aren't known for the ability to not be led around by the latest fad/peer pressure/brainwashing trend put out by the controlled media with the intention of promoting CIA-controlled corporations (looking at you, Bezos and Zuckerberg).  People in their 20's generally do what is popular and easiest, not necessarily what is in their best interest.

----------


## tod evans

> Ask any person under 30 which of those stores they have or would shop at given the opportunity.


The point he was making is how many of those youngsters would have worked in those establishments.

Now if they're lucky they can flip burgers during HS/college...

----------


## timosman

> You mean prior to Amazon and smartphones?  
> 
> Let's be real, shall we?  People in their 20's aren't known for the ability to not be led around by the latest fad/peer pressure/brainwashing trend put out by the controlled media with the intention of promoting CIA-controlled corporations (looking at you, Bezos and Zuckerberg).  People in their 20's generally do what is popular and easiest, not necessarily what is in their best interest.


It is about getting laid.

----------


## TheCount

> You mean prior to Amazon and smartphones?


No, I said *under* 30.




> Let's be real, shall we?  People in their 20's aren't known for the ability to not be led around by the latest fad/peer pressure/brainwashing trend put out by the controlled media with the intention of promoting CIA-controlled corporations (looking at you, Bezos and Zuckerberg).  People in their 20's generally do what is popular and easiest, not necessarily what is in their best interest.


If you get all riled up and the nurses have to come talk to you then you won't be getting any jello with your meal.

----------


## TheCount

> The point he was making is how many of those youngsters would have worked in those establishments.


Shopping centers with a greater number of smaller stores employ more people, not less, than giant malls comprised of huge department stores.

----------


## tod evans

> Shopping centers with a greater number of smaller stores employ more people, not less, than giant malls comprised of huge department stores.


I must have missed where there's a booming of small stores opening up, especially ones that employ youngsters....

----------


## RJ Liberty

> The point he was making is how many of those youngsters would have worked in those establishments.
> 
> Now if they're lucky they can flip burgers during HS/college...


Exactly. 

But the fact of the matter is, under-30s only represent 25% of the US population (source: 2010 US Census). So where the under-30 crowd shops does not and cannot cause the massive hemorrhaging of retail jobs we've seen. A full 90% of chain bookstores, for example, are now closed. How's that possible if the reason is that under-30s weren't shopping there? 25% of your demographic aren't going to cause 90% of a sector to go under.

Clearly, "unpopularity with young people" is too simplistic. You don't hemorrhage tens of millions of retail jobs if the answer is as simple as "expand your online presence and market to youth."

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> EEO/quotas........
> 
> This fine person must be given equal value in your hearing aid store:
> 
> And these fine folks may scream racism if you don't hire them in your pew manufacturing business:


Tod, please, please don't churn my stomach with revolting images like that... thing!  <shudder>  Seriously.

But it's a good point you raise.  And the Apple Store has indeed had multiple class action lawsuits brought against it, IIRC.  It's just the world we live in.  Luckily for Apple the rewards of success have been far bigger than the punishment of doing what needs to be done for that success.

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> It's just the world we live in.


Not that I'm resigned to it remaining this way.  I'm not.  I'm actually optimistic that it can be changed for the better.  Sanity is on the rise and on the move.

----------


## tod evans

> Tod, please, please don't churn my stomach with revolting images like that... thing!  <shudder>  Seriously.
> 
> But it's a good point you raise.  And the Apple Store has indeed had multiple class action lawsuits brought against it, IIRC.  It's just the world we live in.  Luckily for Apple the rewards of success have been far bigger than the punishment of doing what needs to be done for that success.


There is absolutely no way I'd try to open a retail establishment in today's marketplace.

What with the regulations, the hiring quotas and the $#@! customers one must endure going postal would seem calm....

What sane person would subject themselves to such lunacy for a pittance?  

Nice thing about local businesses is they generally make or grow what they sell...........Retail today means import marketing.

----------


## devil21

> No, I said *under* 30.


And I asked for context.  You skipped that part.  Obviously your question would be nonsense when we were in our 20's.  We would have and did shop/work there, before the introduction of extreme sit-on-ass "progress". 




> If you get all riled up and the nurses have to come talk to you then you won't be getting any jello with your meal.


Still no reply.  Booooooring.

Though we both know the goal is to keep young people distracted, ignorant and sitting on their asses while their futures are basically turned into abject serfdom right under their noses.  Hence the push to keep their faces buried in phones, rarely leaving their agenda 21 apartments while their freedom to travel is slowly removed and worrying about offending the 3% of gay people in the country.

----------


## Madison320

> Beverly Hills, Monaco, Switzerland, etc ....


By the way Switzerland is tied for first in trade freedom. Maldives, North Korea, Iraq,, Somalia, Yemen round out the bottom five. 

http://www.heritage.org/index/explore

----------


## Zippyjuan

> I must have missed where there's a booming of small stores opening up, especially ones that employ youngsters....


They are working someplace.  Even when stores closing make the news, new stores are opening.

----------


## Zippyjuan

And then there is this announcement made this week:  http://www.chainstoreage.com/article...mortar-formats




> *Report: Amazon could upend retail with new brick-and-mortar formats*
> 
> Amazon is keeping all its options open when it comes to exploring new concepts.
> 
> *The online giant is exploring an array of brick-and-mortar ideas, from electronics stores to stores that sell furniture and appliance, that would use technology in ways and have a dramatic impact on how other stores operate,* reported The New York Times. 
> 
> These ideas come on the heels of the company’s Amazon Books store concept, which just opened its fifth location, in Chicago.   
> 
> Amazon is also making a strong commitment to the grocery category. In addition to its Amazon Go checkout-fee convenience store concept which launched last year, the online giant’s first two AmazonFresh Pickup grocery stores are set to open in Seattle. Both locations will enable customers to order food online and schedule an in-store pick-up. 
> ...

----------


## oyarde

Amazon is going to kill itself with retail stores since everyone buys online and retail is going under . WTF .

----------


## Krugminator2

> That's too simplistic. *You can say "nobody likes Sears and Kmart" (which have lost 700 stores in recent years), but did nobody also like Montgomery Wards (500 store closures), B. Dalton (800 store closures), Mervyn's (200 store closures), Waldenbooks (1,200 store closures), Goody's (500 store closures), Borders (625 store closures), JCPenney (140 store closures), Hastings Entertainment (150 store closures), Gap (190 stores), Radio Shack (3,000 store closures), Crown Books (200 store closures), Macy's (100 store closures), Payless (500 store closures),* and thousands of other chain retail outlets that have shuttered in the US? You can't lose that many retail stores in one country and expect the economy to somehow recover; Macy's alone will lay off 38,000 employees this year. These massive retail die-offs, which have grown larger and larger since 2001, often have little to do with what people like and don't like. They're forced out of business by our own government, which is using taxpayer money to contract with Amazon for $600,000,000. That's money that Amazon then uses to put _more_ retailers out of business. Our money.
> 
> The more people listen to the talking heads saying these establishments "failed to adapt" while ignoring the fact that our own government is a major patron of Amazon's massive profit mechanism, the more we'll continue to see once-massive retailers go bankrupt, and continue to see our own neighborhoods decline as brick-and-mortar stores become history.


Excluding Borders, the combined number of times of all the other stores you listed that I  have set foot in during my lifetime is under 5. Maybe those stores don't really have a good product? I think I maybe was  in a K Mart when I was 4 years old and I think went to a Sears to get something for an apartment in college.  I have never even heard of Waldenbooks, Hastings Entertainment,  Goody's, Mervyn's or B Dalton or Crown Books.

I have made thousands of transactions on Amazon. My life is materially better because Amazon exists. The reason Amazon is dominating is because they have an outstanding product. That is kind of the way it is supposed to work. I don't really see a need go back to the bad old days of paying much more and not having what I want.

----------


## RJ Liberty

> They are working someplace.  Even when stores closing make the news, new stores are opening.


"Source: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics"... the same Bureau of Labor that was caught faking unemployment numbers in 2015, and was called out by the MSM (the NY Post, for example), and which was also called out for faking numbers in 2009.

But even if we _believed_ the numbers we're fed, that chart shows the number of retail jobs going from 10,000 to 15,000 between 1980 and 2000 (growing by 50%), and then stagnating between 2000 and today. That can't be good, even using the DOL's own fudged numbers!

(This also reminds me of the time the Department of Labor was caught faking low inflation numbers).

----------


## oyarde

> There is absolutely no way I'd try to open a retail establishment in today's marketplace.
> 
> What with the regulations, the hiring quotas and the $#@! customers one must endure going postal would seem calm....
> 
> What sane person would subject themselves to such lunacy for a pittance?  
> 
> Nice thing about local businesses is they generally make or grow what they sell...........Retail today means import marketing.


I think it is accurate to just call retail import marketing .

----------


## timosman

> Amazon is going to kill itself with retail stores since everyone buys online and retail is going under . WTF .


Your analysis is wrong. You are talking profits and you should think revenue. Embrace Amazon - your chance in digital serfdom. We also provide an analog link for those yet not converted.

----------


## oyarde

> Your analysis is wrong. You are talking profits and you should think revenue. Embrace Amazon - your chance in digital serfdom. We also provide an analog link for those yet not converted.


Yeah , I am gonna take a pass on the digital serfdom .

----------


## Zippyjuan

> "Source: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics"... the same Bureau of Labor that was caught faking unemployment numbers in 2015, and was called out by the MSM (the NY Post, for example), and which was also called out for faking numbers in 2009.
> 
> But even if we _believed_ the numbers we're fed, that chart shows the number of retail jobs going from 10,000 to 15,000 between 1980 and 2000 (growing by 50%), and then stagnating between 2000 and today. That can't be good, *even using the DOL's own fudged numbers!*
> 
> (This also reminds me of the time the Department of Labor was caught faking low inflation numbers).


http://archives.cjr.org/the_audit/bo...ory_census.php




> *A bogus NY Post piece sets off a frenzy*


https://www.theatlantic.com/business...report/281648/




> *Did the Census Bureau Really Fake the Jobs Report?*
> 
> 
> _The New York Post makes a shocking claim. But even if it's right, the fraud was too imperceptibly small to make any a difference._


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/poli...icle-1.1777153




> *Investigation: Government did not rig unemployment data during the 2012 Presidential election*


1.6 million more working in retail today than there were in the recession (2009).

----------


## oyarde

Amazon guy with inflated  stock prices has passed Buffet and is second wealthiest now .

----------


## timosman

> Amazon guy with inflated the stock prices has passed Buffet and is second wealthiest now .


Stop complaining and get your ass to Amazon Mechanical Turk where for a few cents an hour you can start making headway into similar riches.

----------


## devil21

> And then there is this announcement made this week:  http://www.chainstoreage.com/article...mortar-formats


You must have missed the part where the Amazon Go stores are going to be as automated as technologically possible.  Can't argue that retail is helping job availability while pointing to new retail that purposely eliminates jobs.

Having said that, we both know that since the income tax structure is changing in a big way and people won't be the cash cows for the bankers that they have been as the bankruptcy unwinds and the FRN/petrodollar dies, there's no reason to keep people working in any meaningful way.  Interesting times.




> Amazon guy with inflated the stock prices has passed Buffet and is second wealthiest now .


The funny part is the Amazon is barely even profitable, when compared relative to its revenues.  A lot of Amazon's profits come from interest on the funds it collects on behalf of those that sell through Amazon.  Amazon is more of a social engineering tool than a profit driven company.

----------


## LibForestPaul

How has Amazon, a global company, affected malls and retail stores in Sweden, Germany, UK, China, and Japan?

----------


## tod evans

I just walked out of our local farm supply, $56.40 for a 3-pack of Frontline, $35.00 from Amazon......

$20.00 difference for a 4oz package...

----------


## Suzanimal

> I just walked out of our local farm supply, $56.40 for a 3-pack of Frontline, $35.00 from Amazon......
> 
> $20.00 difference for a 4oz package...


I noticed our pool store is a lot more expensive than Amazon but I still buy from them. They offer free services (water testing) and advice that's saved me a ton of money over the years and I want them to stay around. I think that's where the little guy is going to have to shine to make it in this market. Customer service. Unfortunately, many don't get that.

----------


## tod evans

> I noticed our pool store is a lot more expensive than Amazon but I still buy from them. They offer free services (water testing) and advice that's saved me a ton of money over the years and I want them to stay around. I think that's where the little guy is going to have to shine to make it in this market. Customer service. Unfortunately, many don't get that.


The store I went to is kinda new, an Ozarks chain/farm store and the employees don't have even fair attitudes.......The feed store doesn't carry Frontline or I'd have been tempted to fork over some additional money but still not $20.00 more on a $35.00 purchase...

----------


## opal

> I just walked out of our local farm supply, $56.40 for a 3-pack of Frontline, $35.00 from Amazon......
> 
> $20.00 difference for a 4oz package...


25.62 on ebay 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Frontline-Plus-for-Dogs-45-88lbs-Purple-3-Pk-/222453983869?hash=item33cb4a6a7d:g:baQAAOSwQTVWAcF  p


and 29.67 for the bigger dogs

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Frontline-Plus-3pk-Red-Dogs-89lbs-and-over-Brand-New-/162452125726?hash=item25d2e6b81e:g:waYAAOSwwNVTte9  k

----------


## devil21

> I noticed our pool store is a lot more expensive than Amazon but I still buy from them. They offer free services (water testing) and advice that's saved me a ton of money over the years and I want them to stay around. I think that's where the little guy is going to have to shine to make it in this market. Customer service. Unfortunately, many don't get that.


You can still pay cold, hard cash to the local guy.  Maybe even barter/trade if there's a relationship there.  Amazon, not so much.  Like I said, Amazon is a social engineering tool.  Stay home and "pay" with digits.  Don't travel around and don't use tangible forms of payment.

----------


## Dforkus

> 25.62 on ebay 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Frontline-Plus-for-Dogs-45-88lbs-Purple-3-Pk-/222453983869?hash=item33cb4a6a7d:g:baQAAOSwQTVWAcF  p
> 
> 
> and 29.67 for the bigger dogs
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Frontline-Plus-3pk-Red-Dogs-89lbs-and-over-Brand-New-/162452125726?hash=item25d2e6b81e:g:waYAAOSwwNVTte9  k


Just be wary, Frontline is one of the things that often faked by shady online merchants

----------


## opal

> Just be wary, Frontline is one of the things that often faked by shady online merchants


Ebay may have gone down hill in the last decade but their review section is helpful

----------


## Suzanimal

I've noticed Ralph Lauren quality has gone downhill over the past several years. 




> Ralph Lauren just became the latest victim of America's retail apocalypse
> 
> Ralph Lauren Corp (RL.N) said on Tuesday it would cut jobs and shut its flagship Polo store on Fifth Avenue in New York City, among other office and store locations, as part of a cost-cutting plan.
> 
> The luxury retailer also said its e-commerce business would move to Salesforce.com Inc's (CRM.N) cheaper and more efficient Commerce Cloud platform.
> 
> Ralph Lauren had said last year it was building an in-house global e-commerce platform.
> 
> The New York-based retailer also said on Tuesday that it would integrate its products from the Fifth Avenue store into the Ralph Lauren men's and women's flagship stores on Madison Avenue and its downtown locations. 
> ...


http://markets.businessinsider.com/n...7-4-1001895082

----------


## devil21

Rumors floating around of Walmart making major staff cuts the last couple days and more coming.

----------


## anaconda

For me: Costco, Amazon, and the grocery a few blocks away. That's pretty much it.

----------


## Carlybee

Payless Shoes filing for bankruptcy..closing 400 stores.

----------


## TheCount

> I've noticed Ralph Lauren quality has gone downhill over the past several years. 
> 
> http://markets.businessinsider.com/n...7-4-1001895082


I think they're one of the brands that sells an entirely different product at their outlet stores, so if you go there it's a much lower quality than regular.

----------


## tod evans

> Payless Shoes filing for bankruptcy..closing 400 stores.


I can honestly say in over 50 years I've never bought anything at a Payless shoe store..

I've had very good luck finding a local shoe repair/ Redwing dealer in every town I've lived near....

----------


## Suzanimal

> I think they're one of the brands that sells an entirely different product at their outlet stores, so if you go there it's a much lower quality than regular.


I don't even shop outlet stores. I think the problem with RL (for women, anyway) is they started cutting all their sporty clothes for teens. I'm not fat but that doesn't mean I want to wear skin tight sportswear. And they put those stupid big ponies on their tops, too. Also ridiculous for anyone over 25. 

Unless you want to spend 800.00 on a pair of pants you're stuck with a teen cut or the inferior fabric and erratic sizing in their Lauren line. Why bother when I can wait for a sale at WHBM and get really nice, quality clothes that don't look like something a 16 year old would wear and also come in shorts. Petites are a little short for me but regulars are too long. WHBM has an in between. Yay!

----------


## oyarde

> For me: Costco, Amazon, and the grocery a few blocks away. That's pretty much it.


Yeah , I live in the sticks , still , 8 miles up the road is a grocer , a butcher , a liquor store , a drug store and a Dollar Store . I only have to go into town to the farm store a couple times a month . Doing that I pass Walmart and Sams club and nothing there is cheaper than the other places , so I do not use them .

----------


## Carlybee

> I can honestly say in over 50 years I've never bought anything at a Payless shoe store..
> 
> I've had very good luck finding a local shoe repair/ Redwing dealer in every town I've lived near....


Betcha they reorganize and start selling online only.

----------


## phill4paul

A Hobby Lobby anchor end store recently left a strip mall. I'm interested to see what it will fill it with. Good shops on the strip. A Firehouse Sub shop. A Vacuum repair sales shop, high end, Meile etc.). A great outdoors center that is way over priced. He recently expanded into another space to house his kayak/canoes. A U.P.S. shipping center. Some Rent-to-Own company that even charges exorbitant rates after the dating period for TV's/ATVs/Lawn mowers/etc. It's a good strip. I hope they don't put another grocery store there. It'd be nice if a new grocer actually brought prices down. The opposite is happening in their bull$#@! "upscale" scheme. Thankfully the old grocers are doing well. Food Lion and Galaxy.

----------


## specsaregood

> I just walked out of our local farm supply, $56.40 for a 3-pack of Frontline, $35.00 from Amazon......
> 
> $20.00 difference for a 4oz package...


do yourself a favor and find a different flea control product,  Frontline doesn't work any longer, fleas have evolved to be immune to it.   We found that out this past fall/winter the hard way.  we had been using frontline for many years.  http://www.bing.com/search?q=frontli...t+work+anymore

We ended up switching to Advantix and it killed the buggers off in no time.

----------


## tod evans

> do yourself a favor and find a different flea control product,  Frontline doesn't work any longer, fleas have evolved to be immune to it.   We found that out this past fall/winter the hard way.  we had been using frontline for many years.  http://www.bing.com/search?q=frontli...t+work+anymore
> 
> We ended up switching to Advantix and it killed the buggers off in no time.


I use it for ticks, never have had fleas here.......

Could be because the dogs think cats are stretchy toys?

----------


## phill4paul

> do yourself a favor and find a different flea control product,  Frontline doesn't work any longer, fleas have evolved to be immune to it.   We found that out this past fall/winter the hard way.  we had been using frontline for many years.  http://www.bing.com/search?q=frontli...t+work+anymore
> 
> We ended up switching to Advantix and it killed the buggers off in no time.


  Our vet recommended we use Brevecto. It seems to be a pretty good product. We have squirrels about so the hound gets fleas from them when he catches one. And plenty of ticks around. All the ticks that I've found on him were dead, and very few at that.

----------


## tod evans

> Our vet recommended we use Brevecto. It seems to be a pretty good product. We have squirrels about so the hound gets fleas from them when he catches one. And plenty of ticks around. All the ticks that I've found on him were dead, and very few at that.


$50.00 a dose?

----------


## specsaregood

> I use it for ticks, never have had fleas here.......
> 
> Could be because the dogs think cats are stretchy toys?


well if you don't have fleas in your area, then nevermind.  dealing with a flea infestation because the flea meds you've been using for years stopped working is absolutely no fun for anybody.

----------


## tod evans

> well if you don't have fleas in your area, then nevermind.  dealing with a flea infestation because the flea meds you've been using for years stopped working is absolutely no fun for anybody.


I've never seen any...

Doesn't mean they're not around only that there's better pickin's than my house...

----------


## tod evans

Oh.................Thanks feds!

For outlawing Lindane...

For a couple of bucks a person could mix up 55 gallons of dip, dunk the dogs, load the cattle and horse wipes and still have enough left over to use next month....

----------


## phill4paul

> $50.00 a dose?


  Our vet charged us $48 for 3 doses @ 12 weeks each. He probably gets a deal on it.

----------


## euphemia

The last time I was in a mall department store, I looked all around, found something I wanted to purchase and had to walk all over that level to find someone who would take my money.  Biggest waste of time, ever.  Online, it's just click, pay, and wait for the package to arrive in the mail.

----------


## Suzanimal

> The last time I was in a mall department store, I looked all around, found something I wanted to purchase and had to walk all over that level to find someone who would take my money.  Biggest waste of time, ever.  Online, it's just click, pay, and wait for the package to arrive in the mail.


Yeah, that sucks. And if you return something to Macys, you have to do the return in the correct department. Once, I had to walk all over the store to return 3 items. o_O

----------


## oyarde

> Yeah, that sucks. And if you return something to Macys, you have to do the return in the correct department. Once, I had to walk all over the store to return 3 items. o_O


I have never been in a Macys but they look big .

----------


## tod evans

> I have never been in a Macys but they look big .


I'm with ya' man........

----------


## DGambler

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...s-up-retailers

Relevant thread. Saw Bezos passed Buffet the other day.

----------


## Suzanimal

> Retail Store Job Cuts Deepen as More Buyers Migrate Online
> 
> Retail stores are cutting jobs at the sharpest pace in more than seven years, evidence of a seemingly inexorable shift away from employee-heavy stores as Americans increasingly shop online.
> 
> A combined 60,600 retail job losses over the past two months have had less to do with the health of U.S. consumer spending than with changes in buying habits. In the age of Amazon, traditional stores, from J.C. Penney to Macy's, have accelerated store closures and are experimenting with the use of fewer employees to staff the remaining stores.
> 
> The industry has also been bruised by a string of bankruptcy filings, most recently from Payless ShoeSource. The company announced this week that it was closing nearly 400 stores, nearly 10 percent of its fleet.
> 
> The job cuts in the retail industry, unwelcome as they are, are still a relatively minor burden for the overall U.S. economy. But for Americans seeking a foothold in the job market, the pullback represents a painful obstacle. Retail accounts for nearly one-third of first-time jobs in the United States, so a retrenchment by the industry's employers can block access to the job market for many.
> ...


http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/...te-online.html

----------


## Suzanimal

> HHGregg to close all stores after failing to find a buyer
> 
> INDIANAPOLIS — The going-out-of-business sales start this weekend at HHGregg.
> 
> The bankrupt retailer is planning to begin liquidating its assets Saturday after failing to find a buyer by its Friday deadline. The company expects to close all of its 220 stores by the end of May, resulting in about 5,000 layoffs across the U.S.
> 
> HHGregg CEO Bob Riesbeck in a statement said the company has "continued to fight for the future" since March 6 when it filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.
> 
> "While we had discussions with more than 50 private equity firms, strategic buyers and other investors, unfortunately, we were unsuccessful in our plan to secure a viable buyer of the business on a going-concern basis within the expedited timeline set by our creditors," Riesbeck said.
> ...


http://www.indystar.com/story/money/...yer/100183284/

----------


## oyarde

Learn something every day , I would have thought H. H. Gregg sold more appliances than Walmart . They were probably the place to buy appliances in Indianapolis . I never go to the city except the airport .

----------


## opal

Ya know.. I never heard of H. H. Gregg until a couple years ago.. still have not been in one.  We have one (or had.. not sure now) where a toys-r-us used to be.
  Our stove is acting up.. damn flat top stoves.. never liked them.  Maybe I should do some speed research and go see what they have.

----------


## Suzanimal

> Ya know.. I never heard of H. H. Gregg until a couple years ago.. still have not been in one.  We have one (or had.. not sure now) where a toys-r-us used to be.
>   Our stove is acting up.. damn flat top stoves.. never liked them.  Maybe I should do some speed research and go see what they have.


I got all my appliances there except my dishwasher. I have to admit, HH Gregg has great delivery and set up service. My washer and dryer were a pain in the ass and those guys were awesome. The guy Lowes sent to install my second dishwasher told me his life story. I found out his place had bedbugs.

----------


## opal

it took under 5 seconds for me to itch when I read bedbugs...

I looked at their website.. was not interested in any of their stoves

----------


## oyarde

Well , with Sears dying off , I  would say that will just increase  appliance sales a great deal around here at Home Depot , Menards and Lowes . Maybe an opportunity for someone to pick up a few shares of stock .

----------


## jmdrake

> You could teach CPUd a thing or two. 
> 
> Trump will pick a design for the wall using at least 90% recycled materials, just to piss off the left.
> 
> Sorta like how Obama pissed off the right by calling his socialist healthcare choices a "marketplace"


And he's going to use a Mexican company to piss off the right.

----------


## devil21

> http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/...te-online.html


Yeah, online is growing but these articles make it sound like online now owns retail.  The truth is that online transactions are still only about 10% of all retail transactions.  Methinks the online excuse is just that, an excuse, to deflect from the simple fact that people don't have much money and they're not spending what they do still have.

----------


## timosman

> Yeah, online is growing but these articles make it sound like online now owns retail.  The truth is that online transactions are still only about 10% of all retail transactions.  Methinks the online excuse is just that, an excuse, for the simple fact that people don't have much money and they're not spending what they do still have.


We need another bubble. MIC stocks!

----------


## Suzanimal

> Yeah, online is growing but these articles make it sound like online now owns retail.  The truth is that online transactions are still only about 10% of all retail transactions.  Methinks the online excuse is just that, an excuse, to deflect from the simple fact that people don't have much money and they're not spending what they do still have.


I think it's a combination of both. Even though someone may not buy online, most folks shop around online to narrow down choices.

----------


## oyarde

> Yeah, online is growing but these articles make it sound like online now owns retail.  The truth is that online transactions are still only about 10% of all retail transactions.  Methinks the online excuse is just that, an excuse, to deflect from the simple fact that people don't have much money and they're not spending what they do still have.


That is an interesting way to look at it . Considering only 6 in 10 work and only 3 of those make enough to pay Fed tax that means there are many, many broke ass people .

----------


## devil21

> That is an interesting way to look at it . Considering only 6 in 10 work and only 3 of those make enough to pay Fed tax that means there are many, many broke ass people .


If it's from msm then it's banker propaganda and meant to deflect from their ongoing contraction of the money supply (deflation).  Also to implant the idea that _everybody else_ is now shopping online...so why aren't you?  Can't say it enough that Amazon is a social engineering tool.

----------


## RJ Liberty

> If it's from msm then it's banker propaganda and meant to deflect from their ongoing contraction of the money supply (deflation).  Also to implant the idea that _everybody else_ is now shopping online...so why aren't you?  Can't say it enough that Amazon is a social engineering tool.


Yep. And a social engineering tool propped up by our own government and taxpayer money. I had to roll my eyes upthread at someone claiming Amazon is successful because they have "great product". The fact is, the CIA and the NSA have $600 million in contracts with Amazon.

----------


## timosman

> Yep. And a social engineering tool propped up by our own government and taxpayer money. I had to roll my eyes upthread at someone claiming Amazon is successful because they have "great product". The fact is, the CIA and the NSA have $600 million in contracts with Amazon.


This is actually true of most of the high tech companies.

----------


## RJ Liberty

> This is actually true of most of the high tech companies.


Yup.

----------


## timosman

> Yup.


A sad realization of a software "engineer"

----------


## devil21

> This is actually true of most of the high tech companies.


I've always assumed all of the mainstreamed high tech companies _are_ CIA created and controlled, with fake backstories.  From the bowels of DARPA, et al.

----------


## timosman

> I've always assumed all of the mainstreamed high tech companies _are_ CIA created and controlled, with fake backstories.  From the bowels of DARPA, et al.

----------


## kpitcher

> It is sad in a way . Pull into a town of 40k and no longer a Sears , Kmart , JC Pennies or a family owned hardware store . Save me money in the long run though , I do not really need anything and I do not shop online . The remainder of america will just buy all the cheap chinese crap they like online and I will mess around the farm.


Family owned hardwares have been closing up shop for decades already. My sister closed her store after a Home Depot moved in, after a Lowes had been around for a decade. Unless you're more than 15/20 miles from a box store, the hardwares that are left rarely sell any big ticket item and are scraping by.  On top of that even the minimum yearly orders to be part of a chain have kept growing. Ace requires something like 250K yearly ordered from ACE, Tru-serve (True value / service star) was over 100K last I knew. I know I'm over a decade out of knowing what the current totals are, I'm sure it's higher. 

Whirlpool pulled this with all the independent whirlpool appliance dealers back in the 90s. Minimum orders kept getting higher and higher so you'd have to be doing 10K, then 20K, then higher orders. It made it so keeping a current inventory became a very expensive proposition as you couldn't replace a few appliances as you sold them and instead would have to wait until you had a larger order. Smaller shops couldn't compete and appliance sales locations dried up outside of the box stores. That is why you mostly now only see appliances in Lowes, Home Depot, Sears, etc.

I know this should benefit the consumer in the end. However it does change the entire look and feel of a town when the downtowns are all empty.

----------


## specsaregood

> Family owned hardwares have been closing up shop for decades already. My sister closed her store after a Home Depot moved in, after a Lowes had been around for a decade. Unless you're more than 15/20 miles from a box store, the hardwares that are left rarely sell any big ticket item and are scraping by.  On top of that even the minimum yearly orders to be part of a chain have kept growing. Ace requires something like 250K yearly ordered from ACE, Tru-serve (True value / service star) was over 100K last I knew. I know I'm over a decade out of knowing what the current totals are, I'm sure it's higher.


WE have more than a couple of both lowes and home depots within 15/20 miles and yet new ACE hardwares have been opening up and old ones coming back in recent years.    They are more conveniently located (right around neighborhoods) and I think people go to them when they just need some simple hardware type item and dont' feel like driving 15 minutes and walking a mile around the store to get it.   Plus the employees are always right there to guide you to what you need in and out quickly.   I think older people really like them.  There are always  customers in them when I've patronized them.  Of course, about half the time they don't have what I need and I end up having to go to lowes anyways -- which is always disappointing -- but I can see why they have begun to restablish themselves in a special niche.

----------


## Suzanimal

> WE have more than a couple of both lowes and home depots within 15/20 miles and yet new ACE hardwares have been opening up and old ones coming back in recent years.    They are more conveniently located (right around neighborhoods) and I think people go to them when they just need some simple hardware type item and dont' feel like driving 15 minutes and walking a mile around the store to get it.   Plus the employees are always right there to guide you to what you need in and out quickly.   I think older people really like them.  There are always  customers in them when I've patronized them.  Of course, about half the time they don't have what I need and I end up having to go to lowes anyways -- which is always disappointing -- but I can see why they have begun to restablish themselves in a special niche.


Our Ace is really busy and I love going there for specific things - screws (the old man back there can find any screw in a matter of seconds and he's always right there ready to help.) and reading glasses. Believe it or not, they have great reading glasses. My mom's eye doctor commented on how nice her reading glasses are and said he was going to suggest folks go to Ace for them. They're only 5.00 and they are really nice quality. 

I also like Ace's shovels (usually on sale for 14.00 and they have a wide foot rest so you can jump on the shovel without hurting yourself. That comes in handy for me because I don't wear work boots and I have to jump on shovels to cut through the red clay around here. The same quality shovels start at around 25.00 at HD or Lowes. Plus, you get good coupons if you sign up for Ace Rewards. I just got a 10/20 or more regular priced item in the mail last week. 

The Ace's intown have started reinventing themselves as garden centers. Not many plants but more high end lawn decor. I found some beautiful blown glass hummingbird feeders in the one near my parents old house.

----------


## oyarde

> Our Ace is really busy and I love going there for specific things - screws (the old man back there can find any screw in a matter of seconds and he's always right there ready to help.) and reading glasses. Believe it or not, they have great reading glasses. My mom's eye doctor commented on how nice her reading glasses are and said he was going to suggest folks go to Ace for them. They're only 5.00 and they are really nice quality. 
> 
> I also like Ace's shovels (usually on sale for 14.00 and they have a wide foot rest so you can jump on the shovel without hurting yourself. That comes in handy for me because I don't wear work boots and I have to jump on shovels to cut through the red clay around here. The same quality shovels start at around 25.00 at HD or Lowes. Plus, you get good coupons if you sign up for Ace Rewards. I just got a 10/20 or more regular priced item in the mail last week. 
> 
> The Ace's intown have started reinventing themselves as garden centers. Not many plants but more high end lawn decor. I found some beautiful blown glass hummingbird feeders in the one near my parents old house.


We no longer have an Ace .I would probably use it if it was still here . A couple of muh kids live near Lafayette , Tenn and they have a nice one there . I stop in there sometimes when I visit . My Mother used to use the one here and I used the family owned independent hardware store here but they are both gone now so mostly I use Menards . I do buy power tools @ HD though because they match all of muh batteries . I too have noticed the very high long hand too prices ( shovels , pitchforks etc ) at the big chains . Ridiculous .

----------


## AZJoe



----------


## tod evans

Strip malls in the Ozarks are turning into Medicare/Medicaid siphons...

That and pawn shops.

----------


## DamianTV

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-0...ail-apocalypse

----------


## wizardwatson

Apocalypse:  You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means.

----------


## oyarde

I used to buy a few things out of the Gander Mountain catalog on clearance back in the early 90's . They were much cheaper than Bass Pro , Cabelas etc . The same stuff I bought there was the kind of stuff I used to get on clearance at the Co Op , Sears , Wards etc . Most of it now I can just get @ Rural King when I am there .

----------


## oyarde

Marsh grocery has closed 25 stores in the past year . Will be closing 16 more within two months unless a buyer or business partner is found . Leaving only 28 stores remaining and no downtown grocers in Indianapolis .

----------


## Son_of_Liberty90

All hail Jeff Bezos and the Amazon AI overlords.

----------


## Zippyjuan

Somebody is filling up the retail space.  Vacancies have been declining.

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> no downtown grocers in Indianapolis .


 Groceries are particularly susceptible to theft.  Their presence and the presence of certain Diverse and Enriching lower classes are generally incompatible with each other.

Then, when the grocers flee the riff-raff, we have to hear belly-aching about "food deserts."

This is as currently organized, of course.  It presents a market opportunity.  Probably what is needed is grocery stores organized like payday loan establishments in bad neighborhoods.  There is a small, brightly lit, heavily-surveilled front area where the customer walks in and waits.  Behind a thick, thoroughly-bulletproof barrier a clerk takes the customer's order for food, secures payment, goes back and fetches the food, and then carefully and alertly slides it through a small gap under the barrier one item at a time.

Due to the size of some of the items -- Cheeto bags, sugar cereal boxes -- a different mechanism may be needed rather than the small gap.  Perhaps a steel safe of sorts with a front and back door could be invented (only one door open at a time, like an airlock).

Progress!  Technology!  We're Moving Forward!

----------


## tod evans

> Groceries are particularly susceptible to theft.  Their presence and the presence of certain Diverse and Enriching lower classes are generally incompatible with each other.
> 
> Then, when the grocers flee the riff-raff, we have to hear belly-aching about "food deserts."
> 
> This is as currently organized, of course.  It presents a market opportunity.  Probably what is needed is grocery stores organized like payday loan establishments in bad neighborhoods.  There is a small, brightly lit, heavily-surveilled front area where the customer walks in and waits.  Behind a thick, thoroughly-bulletproof barrier a clerk takes the customer's order for food, secures payment, goes back and fetches the food, and then carefully and alertly slides it through a small gap under the barrier one item at a time.
> 
> Due to the size of some of the items -- Cheeto bags, sugar cereal boxes -- a different mechanism may be needed rather than the small gap.  Perhaps a steel safe of sorts with a front and back door could be invented (only one door open at a time, like an airlock).
> 
> Progress!  Technology!  We're Moving Forward!


Or just stop supporting them and let 'em starve....

----------


## Zippyjuan

> Groceries are particularly susceptible to theft.  Their presence and the presence of certain Diverse and Enriching lower classes are generally incompatible with each other.
> 
> Then, when the grocers flee the riff-raff, we have to hear belly-aching about "food deserts."
> 
> This is as currently organized, of course.  It presents a market opportunity.  Probably what is needed is grocery stores organized like payday loan establishments in bad neighborhoods.  There is a small, brightly lit, heavily-surveilled front area where the customer walks in and waits.  Behind a thick, thoroughly-bulletproof barrier a clerk takes the customer's order for food, secures payment, goes back and fetches the food, and then carefully and alertly slides it through a small gap under the barrier one item at a time.
> 
> Due to the size of some of the items -- Cheeto bags, sugar cereal boxes -- a different mechanism may be needed rather than the small gap.  Perhaps a steel safe of sorts with a front and back door could be invented (only one door open at a time, like an airlock).
> 
> Progress!  Technology!  We're Moving Forward!


Probably not one of these in such neighborhoods:

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> Probably not one of these in such neighborhoods.


 It could be doable.  Instead of five checkout clerks post five armed guards in full body armor.  With order to immediately shoot and kill anyone attempting to exit the store with stolen goods.

So, it would take a different legal environment.  Which in turn would take a populace with a very different temperament.  One that cared about virtue and honesty and law.

Much easier to just erect the bullet-proof glass.

Of course, easier does not mean better.  It is a retreating maneuver.  Just as is the constant "white flight" of decent Americans fleeing ever further and further from the ruined husks of the cities they built, abandoning them to their hopeless fate.

At some point, we need to stop retreating, turn around, and start taking it all back.  No mercy.

----------


## Zippyjuan

Ban poor people!

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> Or just stop supporting them and let 'em starve....


Anonymous Conservative is buoyantly optimistic that we are going to see a massive shift into K-selection, wherein the r-selected hordes are, well, all killed off.  I don't see that happening, but I could be wrong!

Anyway, your passive middle ground of not actively slaughtering them but simply allowing them to die by the tens of millions from essentially a mass famine event is ethically and practically attractive.  Unfortunately the "r"s tend to aggression and criminality and would not simply lie down and die with dignity, accepting that "Oh, yes, I can see now it's the case that I am not capable of sufficient productive contribution to feed myself and thus am unfit to live."  Instead they will begin to attempt to pillage all those who do have resources, who will be forced to exterminate them or be exterminated themselves.

----------


## Suzanimal

> Cuba's Capital Now Has a Luxury Mall
> 
> NEWSER) – The saleswomen in L'Occitane en Provence's new Havana store make $12.50 a month. The acacia eau de toilette they sell costs $95.20 a bottle. A few doors down, a Canon EOS camera goes for $7,542.01. A Bulgari watch, $10,200. In the heart of the capital of a nation founded on ideals of social equality, the business arm of the Cuban military has transformed a century-old shopping arcade into a temple to conspicuous capitalism, the AP reports. With the first Cuban branches of L'Occitane, Mont Blanc, and Lacoste, the Manzana de Gomez mall has become a sociocultural phenomenon since its opening a few weeks ago, with Cubans wandering wide-eyed through its polished-stone passages. Teenagers pose for Facebook photos in front of stores, throwing victory signs in echoes of the images sent by relatives in Miami, who pose grinning alongside 50-inch TV sets and luxury convertibles.
> 
> The five-story Manzana sits off the Prado, the broad, tree-lined boulevard that divides the colonial heart of the city. The upper floors are a five-star hotel opening in early June that is owned by the military's tourism arm, Gaviota, and run by Swiss luxury chain Kempinski. The hotel is earning positive early reviews but many tourists say they find the luxury mall alongside it to be repulsive. "I was very disappointed," says Chicago resident Jeannie Goldstein, whose first trip to Cuba ended Saturday. "I came here to get away from this," she says. "This screams wealth and America to us." Some Cubans, however, say they're glad to see a sign the country is opening itself up to foreign wealth. But for many working-class Cubans, it's painful. "This hurts because I can't buy anything," says a 71-year-old retired electrical mechanic who lives on $12.50 a month. "There are people who can come here to buy things, but it's maybe one in 10. Most of the country doesn't have the money."


http://www.newser.com/story/242483/1...s-in-cuba.html

----------


## oyarde

Who would pay 7542.00 for a canon camera ?

----------


## Suzanimal

> The upper floors are a five-star hotel opening in early June that is owned by the military's tourism arm, Gaviota, and run by Swiss luxury chain Kempinski. The hotel is earning positive early reviews but many *tourists say they find the luxury mall alongside it to be repulsive. "I was very disappointed," says Chicago resident Jeannie Goldstein, whose first trip to Cuba ended Saturday. "I came here to get away from this," she says. "This screams wealth and America to us."*

----------


## timosman

> Ban poor people!


The government would collapse. There would be nobody to provide support for government emotional appeals to end poverty.

----------


## helmuth_hubener

> Ban poor people!


Poor people don't steal.

Monkeys steal.

Poor people don't steal.  Rich people don't steal.

Monkeys steal.

Good zookeepers try to stop them.  Pro-monkeyists like our resident Criminal 'Migrant,' Juan, side with the monkeys and attempt to give them free reign, to stop any checks on their behavior.  And the monkeys keep multiplying.

Multiplying.  Multiplying.  Multiplying.  That is what monkey-rabbits do.

----------


## DamianTV

> The government would collapse. There would be nobody to provide support for government emotional appeals to end poverty.


I thought the lower class people were just there to scare the $#@! out of the middle class?  Oops, my bad, the middle class became the lower class...

----------


## oyarde

> The government would collapse. There would be nobody to provide support for government emotional appeals to end poverty.


Nearly all poverty in the US is Because of govt . , so collapsing govt would help some people .

----------


## timosman

> Nearly all poverty in the US is Because of govt . , so collapsing govt would help some people .


It is true, but the government does not see it this way.

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> The problem is competition- it is easier and usually cheaper to shop online. Or at Walmart.


Many places now price match.  And junk is not competition.

----------


## BV2

Good. And when Amazon is done consolidating market share, and start to increase their prices people will get what they wanted...hows the saying go? Oh yeah: good and hard.

This too is good. Because we live in Amerika circa 2017 where up is down, girl is boy, and left most assuredly is right.

----------


## gaazn

It is totally not right for a small retailer to pay taxes, which the federal governments gives to amazon thru huge contracts.  Then amazon uses that cash flow to keep killing the retailer.  As mr bernie would say, billionaires dont just buy huge newspaper companies like the washington post just so that they can read the newspaper....

----------


## Suzanimal

> Sears hold liquidation sales; 20 more stores closing
> 
> Sears stores across the country will be holding liquidation sales Friday.
> 
> The chain is trying cost-cutting measure to survive, according to the company’s management. The retail chain announced in January it would be closing 150 stores starting in the spring. Last week management announced it would close an additional 20 outlet stores. Sears Holdings, which includes Kmart stores, is on pace to close 260 locations in 2017. 
> 
> The company said in March that without the measures it’s likely the company would go out of business.
> 
> "Our historical operating results indicate substantial doubt exists related to the company's ability to continue as a going concern," said the statement.
> ...


http://www.wsbtv.com/news/trending-n...sing/545809103

----------


## timosman

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-retail-debt/




> November 8, 2017
> 
> The so-called retail apocalypse has become so ingrained in the U.S. that it now has the distinction of its own Wikipedia entry.
> 
> The industrys response to that kind of doomsday description has included blaming the media for hyping the troubles of a few well-known chains as proof of a systemic meltdown. There is some truth to that. In the U.S., retailers announced more than 3,000 store openings in the first three quarters of this year.
> 
> But chains also said 6,800 would close. And this comes when theres sky-high consumer confidence, unemployment is historically low and the U.S. economy keeps growing. Those are normally all ingredients for a retail boom, yet more chains are filing for bankruptcy and rated distressed than during the financial crisis. Thats caused an increase in the number of delinquent loan payments by malls and shopping centers.
> 
> ...

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## oyarde

Americans have a plan . That plan does not include retail . Instead of going to the brick and mortar store and buying an item for 40 , they will browse the net for hours , buy that chinese made product for 30 and eat a 5 dollar bag of doritos while "saving" 5 . The same day this happens , they will put zero dollars in a 401K or savings- retirement account , the employer they work for will put zero dollars in a pension fund for them and the govt takes monies from them to feed paid informants , gun control , food stamps , dept of education , the FBI , CIA , BATFE etc . All this while half will be foolish enough to think America can be Great and the other half will work to ensure it cannot .Dayligt  " saving" time brings darkness at 5:30 on a gloomy Nov day ending shopping at retail an hour earlier for the people over 50 that actually have money who have no desire to wander in the dark and cold and hunt for reading glasses .

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## fedupinmo



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## euphemia

> It is sad in a way . Pull into a town of 40k and no longer a Sears , Kmart , JC Pennies


Oddly enough, Sears, JC Penney's, and Montgomery Ward all had huge catalog sales back in the day.  That was the precursor to on-line shopping.

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## EBounding

Going to the store is generally an awful experience. Especially one that hasn't been updated since the 90's.

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## Raginfridus

> I have been hatching an idea for Apocalypse Vacations.


As long as I don't have to drink tang or $#@! my pants, launch me in a rocket into the stars.

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## Raginfridus

Kid Komrade at 1 mo.


> 


Kid Komrade at 1 yr.

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## fedupinmo

> As long as I don't have to drink tang or $#@! my pants, launch me in a rocket into the stars.


Whatchu gotta gainst Tang?

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## Raginfridus

As long as tang on Poon has lots of pulp, I'm OK.

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## euphemia

Back to the OP.  I'm watching a report on "retail-tainment," or experience retail, where stores are creating experiences like golf simulators, exercise try-outs, whatever, to "delight" the customer so they will come into b&m stores.  

Dear Retailers:  I would be delighted to walk into a store, find the product I want, and then be able to pay for it and go home without waiting in super long queues.  I would also like to have cashiers who actually know how to count change because I don't use your store's credit card, so please don't make them try to upsell me one.  All I want is service.

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## DamianTV

> Back to the OP.  I'm watching a report on "retail-tainment," or experience retail, where stores are creating experiences like golf simulators, exercise try-outs, whatever, to "delight" the customer so they will come into b&m stores.  
> 
> Dear Retailers:  I would be delighted to walk into a store, find the product I want, and then be able to pay for it and go home without waiting in super long queues.  I would also like to have cashiers who actually know how to count change because I don't use your store's credit card, so please don't make them try to upsell me one.  All I want is service.


Dear Retailers: Dont send me to your website when I am physically standing in your store.

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## LibForestPaul

> Somebody is filling up the retail space.  Vacancies have been declining.


That is vacancy _rates_. What is happening to the total available retail space? Is it growing, remaining flat, or declining?
And why did you not post this to begin with? Almost if your presented a statistic to only persuade, not inform.

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## devil21

> That is vacancy _rates_. What is happening to the total available retail space? Is it growing, remaining flat, or declining?
> And why did you not post this to begin with? Almost if your presented a statistic to only persuade, not inform.


Good point about rates.  In my mid-size Agenda 21 city, _a lot_ of the retail space that was once strip malls and stand-alone units has been demolished and replaced with mixed use Agenda 21 condo developments.  More is demolished daily.  The total square footage of retail space has definitely been reduced.  Then there's the low-profile gray-area-of-legality gambling parlors taking over from spaces previously occupied by retailers like carpet sales and other services no longer needed because of the condo developments.  This is also why delivery services are being pushed onto everyone.

It's a combination of less money to spend and less options to spend at, not some giant demand for online commerce.  All very intentional, of course, as part of Agenda 21 and the loss of dollar global reserve status.

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## AZJoe

Sears announced it will be closing an additional 64 Kmart and 29 Sears stores

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## timosman

https://www.retailcustomerexperience...-in-the-works/




> Feb. 15, 2018
> 
> The holiday season didn't prove to be a boon for beleaguered bookseller Barnes & Noble, and the retailer is laying off workers.
> 
> In a statement, company officials stated it was "adjusting staffing" to meet needs of existing business and customers and that as the business improves we'll adjust accordingly."
> 
> The news comes following reports of healthy retail sales increases at the end of 2017 compared to 2016, and as companies are doling out bonuses and pay raises primarily due to the federal tax reform. The National Retail Federation expects the robust retail sales trend to continue this year, as Retail Customer Experience previously reported.
> 
> Barnes & Noble did not provide the number of workers being laid off, according to a USA Today report, or which roles and markets may be impacted.

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## Zippyjuan

The book business has been struggling for a long time- between the growth of the internet and Amazon. Retail in general has been doing fairly well. 




> The news comes following reports o*f healthy retail sales increases* at the end of 2017 compared to 2016, and as companies are doling out bonuses and pay raises primarily due to the federal tax reform. The National Retail Federation *expects the robust retail sales trend to continue this year,* as Retail Customer Experience previously reported.

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## timosman

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...u-s-operations




> March 8, 2018
> 
> Toys R Us Inc. is making preparations for a liquidation of its bankrupt U.S. operations after so far failing to find a buyer or reach a debt restructuring deal with lenders, according to people familiar with the matter.
> 
> While the situation is still fluid, a shutdown of the U.S. division has become increasingly likely in recent days, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the information is private. Hopes are fading that a buyer will emerge to keep some of the business operating, or that lenders will agree on terms of a debt restructuring, the people said.
> 
> The toy chains U.S. division entered bankruptcy in September, planning to emerge with a leaner business model and more manageable debt. A new $3.1 billion loan was obtained to keep the stores open during the turnaround effort, but results worsened more than expected during the holidays, casting doubt on the chains viability.
> 
> While a Chapter 11 bankruptcy provides a company with breathing space, it is incumbent on the debtors management to show how it intends to reorganize as a going concern, said Gregory Plotko, a partner in the bankruptcy practice at Richards Kibbe & Orbe LLP. My sense is that the major creditor group has not yet heard a compelling enough story, nor has a white knight appeared.
> ...

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## Suzanimal

> Crocs closing all manufacturing facilities, announces CFO's resignation
> 
> NIWOT, Colorado — The last of Crocs Inc.'s manufacturing facilities, located in Italy, is going to close, the company announced.
> 
> It also closed its plant in Mexico. Crocs leaders did not give information on how it will continue producing its products during its second-quarter earnings report this week.
> 
> The company grew its second-quarter earnings and revenue by 4.7 percent year-over-year. But Crocs Inc. is operating fewer stores.
> 
> The company has not said if it plans to shutter more stores in the U.S. It expects revenue to increase, in the single digits, by the year's end. 
> ...

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## timosman

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...se/1060236002/




> Aug. 22, 2018
> 
> Lowe's will close all Orchard Supply Hardware stores nationwide by Feb. 1, the company announced Wednesday.
> 
> Orchard Supply Hardware, founded in 1931 in San Jose, California, and acquired by Lowe's in 2013, has 99 stores in California, Oregon and Florida. Lowe's is closing the stores to focus on its core home improvement business, the company said.
> 
> Employees were told about the decision Tuesday, and all stores will be open Wednesday for normal business hours. Orchard Supply Hardware stores will have store closing sales beginning Thursday with a plan for all stores to be closed by the end of the company's fiscal year. Lowe's will also close a distribution center in Tracy, California, the company said.
> 
> "While it was a necessary business decision to exit Orchard Supply Hardware, decisions that impact our people are never easy," Lowe's president and CEO Marvin Ellison said in a statement. "We will be providing outplacement services for impacted associates, and they will be given priority status if they choose to apply for other Lowe's positions."
> ...

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## AZJoe

*RATE OF STORE CLOSURES ACCELERATES AFTER ALREADY HITTING RECORD HIGHS*

According to a report by _Business Insider,_ more than 6,100 stores have been slated for closure so far in 2019, already exceeding last year’s total number of closures.  …

Not only does there appear to be no end in sight for this epidemic accurately dubbed the “retail apocalypse,” store closures are expected to pick up the pace as we inch toward 2020. Retailers are expected to close roughly 9,000 stores this year, followed by another 12,000 stores in 2020, according to estimates from Cushman & Wakefield.

Record-high store closures, bankruptcies, and liquidations have occurred due to these establishments’ inability to manage their debt.  ….

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## timosman

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8bEcgJRShw

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## oyarde

I see Macy's has a big list . Looks like the only one in Indiana is Muncie . In a mall in a college town .

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## AngryCanadian

The retail apocalypse is because of online stores,shops. If retail shops dont change bad things might happen to them. In canada a computer/desktop outlet shop is still standing and because they have changed alot on their front.

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## kahless

> The retail apocalypse is because of online stores,shops. If retail shops dont change bad things might happen to them. In canada a computer/desktop outlet shop is still standing and because they have changed alot on their front.


So the news media says. The reality is online only makes up a small part of that.  You cannot feel or try on clothes over the internet.  

This is a government created problem of rising property taxes.  Growing government, salaries and pensions, send property taxes through the roof.   This is either passed on directly to the retailer or through their lease.  If you massively raise prices no one is going to buy but if you don't you are below water.  Sp you just close shop.   It is not just the higher cost per square footage it is the property taxes in region make it unaffordable for low income wage earners so the retailers must pay them more.  Higher salaries again you have to raise prices so no one is going to buy.

Then you have lack of buying power.  People holding on to things longer and not buying since salaries have not kept up with the rate of property taxes and inflation. (not to forget even for renters, higher property taxes mean higher rents, therefore less buying power)

Of course the news media will not report any of this.  They take the lazy way out an just blame online retail or Amazon.  Investigative journalism costs money.  Cheaper to blame online and since most are Progressive (Communist) they will not say one word about rising property taxes.  They love taxes.  If it was up to the news media people would not own property and these malls - retail outlets would be provided by government.

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## Zippyjuan

Store closures may make the headlines, but they do not include new businesses which open. Retail vacancies are actually at record lows. One thing which online stores are having a problem with is a very high rate of returns compared to brick and mortar stores- instead of trying before buying, people buy, then try, and return the items they don't want. Some returns are no longer considered "new" and must either be sold at a reduced price or somehow disposed of.  That adds to the cost of doing business. Brick and mortar returns are 5- 10% of sales while online it can be 40% of sales. 




https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/10/grow...landfills.html




> *That sweater you dont like is a trillion-dollar problem for retailers.
> *
> As online sales boom, theres an inevitable side effect: More merchandise is getting returned, boosting costs and complexity for retailers. 
> 
> The shift can be staggering.
> 
> *Shoppers return 5 to 10 percent of what they purchase in store but 15 to 40 percent of what they buy online,* David Sobie, co-founder and CEO of Happy Returns told CNBC.
> 
> Not being able to see an item in person accounts for part of the difference, but consumers also shop differently online than in-store, Sobie said. They may order multiple sizes or colors to try on at home, and then ship or take back what they dont want, with shipping paid for by the retailer, both ways in some cases.
> ...


More at link.

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## Zippyjuan

> I see Macy's has a big list . Looks like the only one in Indiana is Muncie . In a mall in a college town .


Macy's is also looking to open newer, smaller format stores.  https://www.dallasnews.com/business/...e-town-square/




> Macy’s CEO Jeff Gennette needs some wins, and he thinks he has a promising one about 25 miles northwest of downtown Dallas.
> 
> The largest U.S. department store retailer will open its first Market by Macy’s in the upscale suburban shopping center of Southlake Town Square on Thursday.
> 
> The new concept, the brainchild of Macy’s brand experience officer Rachel Shechtman, will be front and center Wednesday when Gennette meets with Wall Street analysts to update investors on the company, which has lost a third of its market value over the last year.





> Gennette said it’s planning to grow with its off-price concept and new small-store format.
> 
> The 20,000-square-foot Market by Macy’s — about a 10th of the size of a big multi-level Macy’s anchor store — is one of two concepts Gennette says Macy’s has created to appeal to that “large swath that’s not shopping in malls today.”
> 
> The other newish concept is Macy’s Backstage, developed in 2015 as an answer to discounters such as T.J. Maxx and Nordstrom Rack that have shaved market share from U.S. department stores.
> 
> The plan is to step up expansion of Backstage, adding 50 more this year. Most of its 200 existing Backstage stores are carved into existing Macy’s department stores with separate entrances and a different mix of merchandise. Some of the new Backstage stores may be freestanding locations similar to seven of the early ones that opened in the Northeast, he said. Backstage stores are posting sales increases while Macy’s overall has reported weaker sales trends in recent months.
> 
> At the same time, Macy’s is remodeling its mall stores in strong, viable centers. So far, 150 Macy’s stores have been upgraded, and 100 are planned for this year, including Macy’s at The Parks Mall at Arlington. NorthPark Center in Dallas and Stonebriar Center in Frisco were in an initial batch in 2018, and Galleria Dallas was upgraded last year.
> ...

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## oyarde

I spent some time in North Dallas last summer , did OK without going to a Macy's. Went to Irving to see what dumpster tebowlives was in but never found him . All the other street people are scared of him , they say he has a nasty disposition.

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## AZJoe

Here's the debt level pattern for retail bankruptcies _prior_ this induced pandemic hysteria crash.

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## AZJoe

2019 Closures Before the 2020 Bubble Pricking

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