# Start Here > Guest Forum >  When will Paulites realize that "more freedom" does not necessarily equal "more good?"

## 56ktarget

Look at Somalia: a perfect representation of the libertarian fantasy.

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## DamianTV

> Look at Somalia: a perfect representation of the libertarian fantasy.


Youre right.  The US has usurped the Freedom to start wars and create total chaos.

There is a precarious balance between too much freedom and too little freedom.  Its part of the problem with the Republican Democratic Paradigm.  Both are for bigger government, but not less government.  The Essense of Freedom is the Proper Limitation of Government.  Balance.  TJ once said "I would prefer dangerous freedom than peaceful slavery", and we are bordering on slavery as it is.

The fantasy is that our Govt has not provoked the conflict through propoganda and subversively arming both sides after ruining their finances.

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## GunnyFreedom

Somalia has more warlords per capita, each with their own lengthy and arbitrary list of laws, statutes, and ordinances, than any other nation on the planet has rulers.  It's pretty much the dead opposite of 'libertarian.'

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## Cabal

Somalia: the ever-consistent ignorant-statist-detector.

Next thing you know, these same derps will be telling us how Iraq is an example of "too much freedom."

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## silverhandorder

If a user gets enough neg rep will he be banned?

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## AngryCanadian

> Look at Somalia: a perfect representation of the libertarian fantasy.


Your ideal world is that is a world that is through completyel in Total Chaos which is extaly what you Americans are doing right now in  Ukraine and elsewhere even as you go by blaming others for ur own mess that for the chaos that you have self created.



At least to be fair, Yusgalavia and Libya had a better system of freedoms in which you wouldn't be criticized for it as you will be in the west.

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## Barrex



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## Barrex

> Look at Somalia: a perfect representation of the libertarian fantasy.




Some interesting statistics:
LINK

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## Cap

56ktarget is off the scale.

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## osan

> Look at Somalia: a perfect representation of the libertarian fantasy.


Go ahead folks, feed the troll and make fools of yourselves.

/thread???????

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## Working Poor

> Look at Somalia: a perfect representation of the libertarian fantasy.


Who told you that? I am not going to neg rep you because I don't do that but Somalia is *not* the libertarian dream come true.

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## Barrex

> Go ahead folks, feed the troll and make fools of yourselves.
> 
> /thread???????


Screw you I like feeding trolls. I consider them my internet pets.

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## presence

> *Somalia: a failed socialist state, not a 'Libertarian Paradise'*
> 
>                                January 29, 2014                            4:01 PM MST                      
> 
> 
> Play
> 
> 
>                             Some people, eager to publically display their utter ignorance of libertarianism, say things like, "If libertarians hate government so much they should move to Somalia."
> ...


http://www.examiner.com/article/soma...arian-paradise

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## presence

> Islamic courts
> 
> 
> Following the collapse of centralized government, much of the legal system and most of the educational institutions and social services fell under the control of religious institutions, which often received significant funding and support from international charities. In 2005, some of these clerical organizations united to form the Islamic Courts Union, after the secular rebel leaders began to challenge the sharia-based judicial institutions. Wary of Islamist paramilitaries in the age of the War on Terror, the CIA funneled hundreds of thousands of dollars to secular rebel leaders inside Somalia in 2006, intending thereby to neutralize the threat of suspected members of Al Qaeda they believed to be sheltered by the ICU.[33] This was cited by experts as a factor in the resurgence of Islamic militias in the country, prompting the latter to engage in pre-emptive strikes which routed the rebel leaders and led to the seizure of Ford by the ICU.[33] The ICU gained control of Mogadishu and its surrounding districts in June 2006, after the Second Battle of Mogadishu. The ICU was later overthrown by the Ethiopian military with the support of the United Nations, African Union, and the United States government. After the ICU forces were chased from Mogadishu, the leaders of the Transitional Federal Parliament entered Somalia declaring themselves the rightful governors of Somalia. As of October 2007, there was still widespread opposition within Somalia to the TFG, and the TFG's leaders and their allies were still attempting to suppress a strong insurgency. In January 2009 politician Abdirahman Ahmed was executed for alleged apostasy by a Sharia court.
> 
> Transitional Federal Government
> 
> 
> The Transitional Federal Government is internationally recognized as the government of Somalia. It was established in 2004 as a successor to the now defunct Transitional National Government, and currently occupies Somalia's seat in the United Nations. The TFG is allied with the Islamic Courts Union and the Alliance for the Re-liberation of Somalia, and is backed by the United States, the United Nations and the African Union. Its forces are fighting to quell the ongoing insurgency in Somalia and are attempting to gain control of the southern half of the country, as the northern regions are both autonomous and comparatively stable. As a truce, in March 2009, Somalia's newly established coalition government announced that it would implement shari'a as the nation's official judicial system.[34]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...Islamic_courts

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## presence

> June 30, 2011Robert P. Murphy
> 
> Earlier in the year, the BBC featured a series of articles  commemorating the 20th anniversary of the fall of the state in Somalia.  Although the articles expressed the typical revulsion at "anarchy," the  series was surprisingly balanced for such a mainstream outlet. Somalia  is undeniably experiencing progress according to several criteria,  despite (or, some would say, because of) its lack of a strong central  government.
>  Economists familiar with the Rothbardian tradition have taken the  analysis even further, persuasively arguing that Somalia is much better  without a state than it was with one. The standard statist put-down —  "If you Rothbardians like anarchy so much, why don't you move to  Somalia?" — misses the point. The Rothbardian doesn't claim that the  absence of a state is a sufficient condition for bliss. Rather, the  Rothbardian says that _however prosperous and law-abiding a society is_, adding an institution of organized violence and theft will only make things worse.
> *The BBC Reflects on 20 Years of Anarchy* As I said initially, the BBC's treatment is remarkably balanced. One article begins,
> Common sense dictates that security and stability are the necessary preconditions to economic development.
>  Since 26 January 1991, most of Somalia has had neither, yet the  economy has not only been resilient, some sectors have shown remarkable  growth.In particular, the telecommunications industry has boomed:
> Somali telecoms expert Ahmed Farah says the first mobile  telephone mast went up in Somalia in 1994, and now someone can make a  mobile call from anywhere in the country.
>  There are nine networks to choose from and they offer services from texting to mobile internet access.It's not just the telecom industry that has improved. A different article outlines the change in some major indices over the last 20 years of (relative) statelessness:
> ...


http://mises.org/library/anarchy-somalia

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## presence

> So how libertarian is Somalia?
> 
> No surprise, it is not. Somalia is a former colonial state, which disbanded into various sub-national entities. It is as if Canada no longer was a country, and disbanded into the independent territories of Quebec, Saskatchewan, Alberta, British Columbia, etc. It wouldn't make them libertarian.
> 
> I don't need to add, that eliminating federal government, only for it to be replaced by local/district/provincial government, doesn't make for a libertarian anything.
> 
> If you look at the real libertarians or anarcho-capitalists as they call themselves, they treat the Federal government with no more disrespect than they treat local councils and city governments, as is shown by the creation of 'emergency managers' to sideline elected officials.
> 
> In short, they hate ALL government, not just federal government.
> ...


- See more at: http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/20....7Wzl0j8D.dpuf

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## presence

> *he Rule of Law without the State*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> September 12, 2007Spencer Heath MacCallumTags Free MarketsGlobal EconomyLegal System
> Were there such a category, Somalia would hold a place in _Guinness World Records_  as the country with the longest absence of a functioning central  government. When the Somalis dismantled their government in 1991 and  returned to their precolonial political status, the expectation was that  chaos would result — and that, of course, would be the politically  correct thing to expect.
> Imagine if it were otherwise. Imagine any  part of the globe not being dominated by a central government and the  people there surviving, even prospering. If such were to happen and the  idea spread to other parts of Africa or other parts of the world, the  mystique of the necessity of the state might be irreparably damaged, and  many politicians and bureaucrats might find themselves walking about  looking for work.
> ...


http://mises.org/library/rule-law-without-state

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## jmdrake

> Look at Somalia: a perfect representation of the libertarian fantasy.


You are mistaking Somalia for Somaliland.




Somaliland is a peaceful independent country inside of Somalia that actually operates on libertarian values.  Somalia is Islamic statism grown from the results of Western imperialism.

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## jmdrake

> http://mises.org/library/rule-law-without-state


Cool!

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## otherone

Oil in Somalia?



TIME TO EXPORT SOME STATISM!

PUNTLAND!!!!!!


_"Puuuunt-land uber al-les...uber alles Puuuuuunt-land"_

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## Ronin Truth

It's not so much an issue of more good, than it is one of much less bad.

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## Sola_Fide

> Look at Somalia: a perfect representation of the libertarian fantasy.


I would never make the blanket statement that "more freedom equals more good", and I don't think any other libertarian would either. 

 How about this:  "more responsible self-government equals more good" or "more peaceful voluntary transactions equal more good".

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## pcosmar

> If a user gets enough neg rep will he be banned?


I am now curious as to the limit and comment on Red Rep.



> 56target is off the scale

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## jmdrake

> Oil in Somalia?
> 
> 
> 
> TIME TO EXPORT SOME STATISM!
> 
> PUNTLAND!!!!!!
> 
> 
> _"Puuuunt-land uber al-les...uber alles Puuuuuunt-land"_


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to otherone again.

Thanks for posting that!  I had no idea how the map looked.  I need to learn what the hell is "Puntland."

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> Look at Somalia: a perfect representation of the libertarian fantasy.


Look at people who constantly say this about Somalia.  A perfect example of uninformed people watching too much tee vee.

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## JK/SEA

> Look at Somalia: a perfect representation of the libertarian fantasy.


looks like someone loves being a punching bag...

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## GunnyFreedom

> looks like someone loves being a punching bag...


What's even more interesting is how once his argument was completely demolished, he disappeared himself.

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## jmdrake

> What's even more interesting is how once his argument was completely demolished, he disappeared himself.


Fire and forget.

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## Anti Federalist

> Fire and forget.


Drive by poster

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## Anti Federalist

> Fire and forget.


Drive by poster

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## Barrex

I leave thread for 3 hours and it turns into serious debate... pih.

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## fisharmor

Everyone who wants to learn something should definitely look through Presence's post about Xeer.



> Customary law is similar in this and many other respects throughout the world.



Some of you have seen me claim here that common law is the law which is chosen in a statism void.  I'm not making that up.  Spontaneous order is a real thing, and it applies to law, as well.




> I am now curious as to the limit and comment on Red Rep.


I'm assuming the point is to get it to 56,000?  I know the green goes up to 15k at least....

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## Ronin Truth

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...44.zaroFpTpX5g

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## Lucille

Somalia?  Really?



You progs need to get a new script.

The Top 0.1% Loves A Guaranteed Minimum Income: With One Caveat
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-0...ome-one-caveat




> The last thing the top 1/10th of 1% wants is a desperate, politically charged underclass with no money to buy the goods and services that generate the income of the top 1/10th of 1%. The best way to keep the underclasses passive and powerless while insuring they have enough money to continue consuming is to arrange for the central bank to issue them money in the form of a popularly acclaimed guaranteed minimum income.
> 
> Helicopter money here we come.


The Democrats Finally Embrace Money Printing
http://gonzalolira.blogspot.com/2013...ace-money.html

As Ron has explained, the inflation tax is the most vicious and regressive tax of all, so of course the "party of the little guy" loves it.

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## NorthCarolinaLiberty

At least (mod edit) liberals who put up halfway decent debate.

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## otherone

> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to otherone again.
> 
> Thanks for posting that!  I had no idea how the map looked.  I need to learn what the hell is "Puntland."


Wiki "Puntland".
Their motto should read, "It's easier to rape, pillage, and plunder when a puppet government is installed".
I've really come to dread the term, "Democratization".

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## P3ter_Griffin

well, if you consider freedom good, and you have more freedom, then it does necessarily equal more good.

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## ThePaleoLibertarian

2/10

Don't feed.

Not that progressives _aren't_ dub enough to argue this, but it doesn't feel like this guy's legit. These kinds of trolls make threads, then leave so they can watch the frenzy, lets not give the fodder, shall we?

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## DamianTV

> 56ktarget is off the scale.


How about "56ktarget is a Redcoat"?

@osan - Feeding trolls is sometimes fun!

Im fine with having a few trolls so we can study them, observe how they behave, hear their irrational thoughts and develop new defenses against them, just as long as they dont violate any of the Forum Rules.

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## philipped

> What's even more interesting is how once his argument was completely demolished, he disappeared himself.


You all kind of lead it to this point lol. Don't feed the trolls.

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## TheTexan

I, for one, like Somalia, just the way it is.

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## Bastiat's The Law

Somalia is a completely tribal society, dominated by warlords.  That's old-world authoritarianism; liberty is a young idea.

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## osan

> Somalia is a completely tribal society, dominated by warlords.  That's old-world authoritarianism; liberty is a young idea.


More to the point, it is FEUDAL, which is just a petty form of Empire.

Anyone using the clapped-out assertion by implication that Somalia is the true face of libertarian or anarchic society is an ignorant fop.

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## Weston White

> Look at Somalia: a perfect representation of the libertarian fantasy.


Would not an ochlocracy run amok be a much more accurate description?  Somalis are not engaging in libertarianism, but ceaseless, disorganized civil war.  The real question here is who in the world is funding this all, how are their resources continuing?

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