# News & Current Events > Individual Rights Violations: Case Studies >  Ferguson decision is in -- NO INDICTMENT

## tangent4ronpaul

Press conference to announce result should be today.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...rc=al_national

-t

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## enhanced_deficit

If free media is reading this, please try to include riot stopper message on same page as furguson decision news.

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## coastie

> Press conference to announce result should be today.
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...rc=al_national
> 
> -t

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## orenbus



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## ZENemy

I predict pretty much nothing will happen.

Its too big, too many people are expecting far too much out of this. I see a few arrest, a bottle will be thrown and someone will be arrested, the crowd will go "SHAME ON YOU" and we will move onto the next "Bottle Nose Dolphin flu" Monday.

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## specsaregood

> I predict pretty much nothing will happen.
> 
> Its too big, too many people are expecting far too much out of this. I see a few arrest, a bottle will be thrown and someone will be arrested, the crowd will go "SHAME ON YOU" and we will move onto the next "Bottle Nose Dolphin flu" Monday.


Dunno, too many freeloaders are looking forward to it.  cops want their overtime pay before the holiday shopping season and looters got holiday shopping to do.

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## PaulConventionWV

> I predict pretty much nothing will happen.
> 
> Its too big, too many people are expecting far too much out of this. I see a few arrest, a bottle will be thrown and someone will be arrested, the crowd will go "SHAME ON YOU" and we will move onto the next "Bottle Nose Dolphin flu" Monday.


I wouldn't underestimate the protesters.  Great expectations may simply empower the mob.

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## tangent4ronpaul

I think it's going to be more like this:

[IMG]http://********************************/2014/08/shutterstock_87925144.jpg[/IMG]

-t

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## enhanced_deficit

> Dunno, too many freeloaders are looking forward to it.  cops want their overtime pay before the holiday shopping season and looters got holiday shopping to do.


Sales deals at steal prices later this week would be much safer option...although that may be open to debate:





*Black Friday: Store Evacuation, Fight and Sales*

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## Lucille

VIDEO: Woman Not Allowed To Buy Gun In Ferguson Because Darren Wilson Won’t Be Indicted
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ses-halt-sales




> First, the woman was told that her application was not filled out properly, then when she returned with the specified corrections, she was told that she couldn’t buy a gun at all, because police had instructed owners of gun shops to lock up and ship out all of their weapons, and not sell to any local customers.
> 
> The shopkeeper even said that the police sent out a physical memos to business owners telling them that riots would be happening and gave them formal orders to close up their shops prior to the announcement of the verdict in the Darren Wilson case.
> 
> She was then told that the police were expecting Darren Wilson to receive a verdict of “not guilty”, and as a result they wanted to make firearms more difficult to obtain for “potential rioters.” The shopkeeper called attention to a large truck that was parked against the back of the building, and told the woman that the truck was removing all of the merchandise from the premises and taking it out of town.
> 
> The woman then clarifies with the shopkeeper, “So because they’re releasing the verdict this weekend that he’s not guilty, I can’t get my gun?”
> 
> The store clerk then revealed another inside detail that he received from police. According to him, the grand jury had already made up their mind in the case a long time ago.
> ...

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## SeanTX

> Dunno, too many freeloaders are looking forward to it.  cops want their overtime pay before the holiday shopping season and looters got holiday shopping to do.


I'm sure at least a few cops are looking forward to the opportunity to crack some skulls and play with their pyrotechnics. And if even the hint of a riot appears, that will likely happen, with Boobus cheering them on  -- it may end up being more of a cop riot than anything. 

Back in August just having a few plastic bottles thrown at them was enough to get officers threatening to shoot people -- tonight could be worse. 

Hopefully as few innocents as possible will be harmed, and looting/burning of private property will stay to a minimum ...

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## ravedown

the blood thirsty cable news scumbags can't wait to hype this and milk it for every ounce of a rating. they've got their race-baiting blowhards on standby to escalate this into a race-riot.

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## Natural Citizen



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## alucard13mm

Obama awarded another person a medal of honor I swear, does Obama time these medal of honors?

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## morfeeis

> 


So nothing begins, everyone knows he wont be charged just like almost every other leo in every other case. Hell; the guy in NY that shot an unarmed man just for opening a damn door is still walking the street.

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## tangent4ronpaul

Press conference will be shortly after 6pm EST tonight.

-t

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## Dr.3D

> Press conference will be shortly after 6pm EST tonight.
> 
> -t


Looks like they are timing the announcement to be just before nightfall.

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## orenbus

> So nothing begins, everyone knows he wont be charged just like almost every other leo in every other case. Hell; the guy in NY that shot an unarmed man just for opening a damn door is still walking the street.

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## tangent4ronpaul

> Looks like they are timing the announcement to be just before nightfall.


The Shock and Awe fireworks show should be pretty spectacular...

MSM is going to have multiple orgasms...

-t

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## sparebulb

I'm _almost_ more afraid for our society if citizens _do not_ riot against the cops over this situation.  Although I do not believe MB is the best case for which to go to the mat.

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## phill4paul

Dipshits and agent provocateurs are now in place. 

  Let The Games Begin!

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## Tod

> Looks like they are timing the announcement to be just before nightfall.



I'm sure THAT is pure coincidence.

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## Dr.3D

> I'm sure THAT is pure coincidence.


Well, they have to let the children get home from school.

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## tangent4ronpaul

> Well, they have to let the children get home from school.


Schools are closed today and tomm.

-t

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## Natural Citizen

Nobody riots like the Ukranians. Heh. Those cats are damned sure original alright. Handing out ass whippins for real for real...

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## ZENemy

> Dunno, too many freeloaders are looking forward to it.  cops want their overtime pay before the holiday shopping season and looters got holiday shopping to do.


I agree but...this is just too big, people have this weird way of NOT doing the BIG thing that was supposed to happen, its organic. In a way, its too expected and will fall very short.

Riots are much more significant when brought on out of nowhere like a good flash fire.

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## orenbus

> Nobody riots like the Ukranians. Heh. Those cats are damned sure original alright. Handing out ass whippins for real for real...


Agreed, when the police come to bust down their wooden barricades they just come back the next day with metal workers and materials to make their new barricades much more challenging to break down, they pool resources and skilled people together like no one else I've seen in recent memory.

Seen here at *2:18*

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## Natural Citizen

> Agreed, when the police come to bust down their wooden barricades they just come back the next day with steel workers and metal materials to make their new barricades much more challenging to break down, they pool resources and skilled people together like no one else I've seen in recent memory.
> 
> Seen here at *2:18*


Ha! I already watched that one. You're exactly correct, though.  I think all we'll see here in Ferguson will be a demonstration of authority and some sensationalism for effect.

You know, if you do an image search for ukraine fighting or other similar terms you get some _seriously_ dramatic photography returned. Field reporters were right there in the mix. Unlike here where you get some plastic looking lady sitting in New York or something yapping about.

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## brandon

All I know is.... I'm glad I don't live in an urban area anymore. I'll be reading the news safely from my cubicle.

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## SeanTX

> You know, if you do an image search for ukraine fighting or other similar terms you get some _seriously_ dramatic photography returned.


I saw one crazy animated GIF where a Ukraine protestor walked up to a goon and shoved him, and the riot cop just casually shot him at point blank range with an AK ...  I could see cops here doing the same thing if it got bad enough. Hell, in Ferguson cops were threatening to shoot at people just for being near them (like Officer GoFuckYourself) ...

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## Natural Citizen

> I saw one crazy animated GIF where a Ukraine protestor walked up to a goon and shoved him, and the riot cop just casually shot him at point blank range with an AK ...  I could see cops here doing the same thing if it got bad enough. Hell, in Ferguson cops were threatening to shoot at people just for being near them (like Officer GoFuckYourself) ...


Yeah, those riot cops were kiev forces that were a product of the coup. They are straight up nazis. Really. That whole group running ukraine are basically the same faction that was leftover from WWII. True story. 

I didn't see that one, though. I wanted to post the truck they set on fire and rammed through the riot cops. That was a hoot alright. I think someone turned it into one of those "Beep Beep M#%&@# F&@%$#!" memes.

Ah well. I'm probably not going to be watching this one. I have some important junk to do.

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## Deborah K

> VIDEO: Woman Not Allowed To Buy Gun In Ferguson Because Darren Wilson Won’t Be Indicted
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ses-halt-sales


Unbelievable!!!  She has no protection, and her rights are being violated - all because 'they' fear a riot!  This is like Katrina.

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## aGameOfThrones



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## Lucille

MO: Judge in Michael Brown case may keep evidence secret
http://rationalreview.news-digests.com/archives/174747



> "The grand jury judge overseeing the Michael Brown case has not agreed to release evidence to the public if veteran police officer Darren Wilson is not indicted, according to a press release published Sunday by a court administrator. ... 'If the grand jury returns a no true bill, the judge anticipates the court will receive requests for grand jury records. Some of those requests will require the court to analyze the need for maintaining secrecy of the records with the need for public disclosure of the records,' [St. Louis County Circuit Court Judicial Administration director Paul] Fox wrote in a document released Sunday." [editor's note: In other words, the cats are already trying to scratch the litter over their mess - TLK] (11/23/14)

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## DFF

Let the rioting, looting and mayhem begin!

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## BV2

Sublime
April 26th, 1992
There was a riot on streets
Tell me where were you?
You were sittin' home watchin' your TV
While I was participating in some anarchy
First spot we hit it was my liquor store
I finally got all that alcohol I can't afford
With red lights flashin', time to retire
And then we turned that liquor store into a structure fire
Next stop we hit, it was the music shop,
It only took one brick to make the window drop
Finally we got our own P.A.
Where do you think I got this guitar that you're hearing today?

("Call fire and tell them respond local station out to meet us at  Anaheim. It's uh, flaming up good." "10-4 Alamidos at Anaheim")

When we returned to the pad to unload everything
It dawned on me that I need new home furnishings
So once again we filled the van until it was full
Since that day my livin' room's been much more comfortable
'Cause everybody in the hood has had it up to here
It's getting harder, and harder, and harder each and every year
Some kids went in a store with their mother
I saw her when she came out she was gettin' some Pampers
They said it was for the black man
They said it was for the Mexican
And not for the white man
*But if you look at the streets, it wasn't about Rodney King
In this $#@!ed-up situation and these $#@!ed-up police
It's about comin' up and stayin' on top*
And screamin' 1-8-7 on a mother $#@!in' cop
It's not in the paper, it's on the wall
National guard
Smoke from all around

(Units, units be advised of an attempted 211 to arrest now at 938 Temple, 9-3-8 Temple,
thirty subjects with bats trying to get inside the CP's house...he thinks out there trying to kill him)

'Cause as long as I'm alive, I'ma live illegal

Let it burn
Wanna let it burn, wanna let it burn
Wanna wanna let it burn
(I feel insanity)
Riots on the streets of Miami
Whoa, riots on the streets of Chicago
On the streets of Long Beach
In San Francisco
Riots on the streets of Kansas City
Tuskaloosa, Alabama
Cleveland, Ohio
Fountain Valley, Paramount, Victorville
Eugene, Oregon
Eureka, California
Hesperia
Santa Barbara
Winnemucca, Nevada
Phoenix, Arizona
San Diego
Lakeland, Florida
$#@!in' 29 Palms

It'll be a fun ride home through the hood tonight.

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## SeanTX

> Let the rioting, looting and mayhem begin!


I'd rather it didn't happen, because too many innocents will be effected, and I think that would just cause Boobus to cheer on the police state even more, esp since some many have turned this into a racial thing.

Now if it were a more clear-cut case of police brutality, and the violence and mayhem was directed entirely at the police and .gov , then I'd be getting the popcorn ready ...  we probably need that sort of riotin' ...

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## orenbus

PRESS CONFERENCE 5:30PM (via drudge)

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## GunnyFreedom

It's more of a media $#@!storm than an actual $#@!storm, as so many of us have been saying on RPF's....

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## tangent4ronpaul

> Live Steam Links?


post  42 - this thread.

-t

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## anaconda

My 24 hr. Fitness gym is in downtown Oakland. Not a bad area but it's where all the protests occur because it's where the government buildings are located. Maybe I'll go to a different location this evening.

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## Ender

> I can't seem to make any pro-Brown activists on twitter of FB disagree with me when I go off on a rant about Akai Gurley, Baby Bou Bou, Miriam Carey, and Kelly Thomas; and why the hell people going to riot over Brown and ignore Gurley?  That it's because the media are doing it on purpose to divide us for their own profit.  I can't get any pro-Brown people to disagree....  That tells me if we could just leverage the voice and turn it against the M$M we might actually be able to accomplish something...


As I have stated elsewhere- the local community has had it and is making it's protest statement. Shouldn't freedom lovers agree with this instead of belittling those that are finally standing their ground?

If people are upset when something happens in their area, then they should be the first one's to stand against what they see as injustice.

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## tangent4ronpaul

Things are heating up a bit.  Bunch of protesters ran accross the street and took out some barriers in front of a police station.

A NF truck drove down the road and evoked a VERY negative response.

Flash point.

-t

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## orenbus

> Live Steam Links?
> Post 42 missed it when I scrolled.


Will keep that post updated as new streams come online, still waiting for a couple more.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5710995

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## invisible

> A NF truck drove down the road and evoked a VERY negative response.


What's an NF truck?

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## jmdrake

> I can't seem to make any pro-Brown activists on twitter of FB disagree with me when I go off on a rant about Akai Gurley, Baby Bou Bou, Miriam Carey, and Kelly Thomas; and why the hell people going to riot over Brown and ignore Gurley?  That it's because the media are doing it on purpose to divide us for their own profit.  I can't get any pro-Brown people to disagree....  That tells me if we could just leverage the voice and turn it against the M$M we might actually be able to accomplish something...





> As I have stated elsewhere- the local community has had it and is making it's protest statement. Shouldn't freedom lovers agree with this instead of belittling those that are finally standing their ground?
> 
> If people are upset when something happens in their area, then they should be the first one's to stand against what they see as injustice.


I'm sorry, but where did Gunny belittle anyone other than the M$M?  Shouldn't freedom lovers agree with that instead of belittling those who are trying to build broad coalitions against police brutality instead of falling into the M$M trap of picking and choosing to harp only on the cases where the victims were questionable?

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## orenbus



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## jmdrake

Alright.  I'll be the first to say it.  They grand jury must have decided not to indict.  If they did indict than I think the authorities would have announced this quickly in order to get everyone to stand down.  There's no indication that Wilson's supporters will riot if there is an indictment.  I will be pleasantly surprised if I'm wrong.

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## invisible

> I'm sorry, but where did Gunny belittle anyone other than the M$M?  Shouldn't freedom lovers agree with that instead of belittling those who are trying to build broad coalitions against police brutality instead of falling into the M$M trap of picking and choosing to harp only on the cases where the victims were questionable?


Gunny wasn't belittling anyone.  He was talking about those making the thinly-veiled racist remarks about how people deserve to be victims of police misconduct because of where they happen to live.

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## phill4paul

> Alright.  I'll be the first to say it.  They grand jury must have decided not to indict.  If they did indict than I think the authorities would have announced this quickly in order to get everyone to stand down.  There's no indication that Wilson's supporters will riot if there is an indictment.  I will be pleasantly surprised if I'm wrong.


  I figured that when they decided to delay the announcement until today. Told my honey this. That the announcement would be delayed until Monday so that protests would peter out by Thanksgiving. She told me that the government had no power to do that.   The jury is instructed by government to give the government what it wants.
  Though...I am wondering as to whether it might be some kinda split decision. With a future grand jury. After the gale has blown. Don't know the particulars for Louisiana as to whether this could happen.

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## jmdrake

> I figured that when they decided to delay the announcement until today. Told my honey this. That the announcement would be delayed until Monday so that protests would peter out by Thanksgiving. She told me that the government had no power to do that.   The jury is instructed by government to give the government what it wants.
>   Though...I am wondering as to whether it might be some kinda split decision. With a future grand jury. After the gale has blown. Don't know the particulars for Louisiana as to whether this could happen.


Louisiana?  This is Missouri.    That said, the double jeopardy clause of the fifth amendment does not apply to grand juries so technically another grand jury could indict.  See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_...ouble_jeopardy

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## phill4paul

> Louisiana?  *This is Missouri.*   That said, the double jeopardy clause of the fifth amendment does not apply to grand juries so technically another grand jury could indict.  See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_...ouble_jeopardy


  Bah, you are right of course. Was interrupted in my thought process while my ole lady was talking about holiday plans.  Thanks for the link. I wonder if it will be a no go? Allows both sides to cool off and eventually be forgotten.

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## GunnyFreedom

Large crowds gathered all over the place getting ready to riot and protest.....

well, except for Ferguson.

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## TheCount

> I'm no fan of the police state by any means....but, lets be honest. This kid Brown was most likely guilty and got what was coming to him just like Trayvon Martin. 
> 
> Both these guys were thugs, and in no way should be viewed as heroes by the liberty movement.


Can you give a list of the crimes for which the 'most likely guilty' should be summarily executed?

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## 2young2vote

An observation: I see alot more white people at these protests than the original ones.

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## orenbus



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## tangent4ronpaul

Lots of people running - looks like the party is on

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## moostraks

> The guy giving the speech is kind of slamming the media.


I am not buying the long, drawn out explanation regarding what an outstanding, unbiased effort has been made by said grand jury. Call me a pessimist and a bit jaded. Gonna be a mess there from the sounds of things.

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## tangent4ronpaul

cops now in helmets and with batons

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## Antischism

The media killed Mike Brown. Trust cops. No reason to distrust police, ever. Blahblahblah.

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## 2young2vote

And so it begins.

They didn't spend months providing evidence in an unbiased fashion, they spent several months trying to convince the grand jury that Wilson was innocent.  That was his trial, conducted entirely in a private setting.

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## Anti Federalist

Hut Hut Hut.

Don't try and tell me the cops didn't know what this decision was *days* in advance.

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## tangent4ronpaul

shields, rocks cops retreating

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## phill4paul

What... again..was the distance between the initial reaction and counter action and the death blows?

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## moostraks

> The media killed Mike Brown. Trust cops. No reason to distrust police, ever. Blahblahblah.


No doubt that was what we were supposed to somehow have as the takeaway from that spiel.

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## GunnyFreedom

My reporter friend on the ground in Ferguson, just said that after the no indictment was announced everybody screamed for a few seconds then got quiet and jumped in the cars and left. Where she was went from 50 people to zero in a couple minutes. I find that weird. Am guessing there is some deeper plan going on?

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## moostraks

> What... again..was the distance between the initial reaction and counter action and the death blows?


But media...it's all media's fault...remain calm.

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## TheCount

> I hope those in the St. Louis area will now see that the government is not their friend. Let every Democrat realize that growing government power does not serve them. Giving people in costumes a licence to kill is a foolish idea.


This isn't a (D)/(R) issue.  There is a type of person who is willing to give government power so long as that power is used on THEM and THEY rather than US.  Collectivism/tribalism occurs all across the political spectrum.

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## DFF

> My reporter friend on the ground in Ferguson, just said that after the no indictment was announced everybody screamed for a few seconds then got quiet and jumped in the cars and left. Where she was went from 50 people to zero in a couple minutes. I find that weird. Am guessing there is some deeper plan going on?


It's cold outside in Ferguson.

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## otherone

> Let every Democrat realize that growing government power does not serve them. Giving people in costumes a licence to kill is a foolish idea.


STASI GONNA STASI

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## jbauer

> It's cold outside in Ferguson.


So they're going to wait till summer?  Just a reason to start a fire or two to warm up.

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## otherone

> Where she was went from 50 people to zero in a couple minutes. I find that weird. Am guessing there is some deeper plan going on?


Dancing with the Stars is on.

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## aGameOfThrones

Policy was followed!

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## ghengis86

> It's cold outside in Ferguson.


Maybe for them...30 is warm around here in the winter!

If this doesn't blow up, there's going to be hundreds of news stations out lots of money and bunch of reporters with nothing but their dicks in their hands.

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## tangent4ronpaul

> My reporter friend on the ground in Ferguson, just said that after the no indictment was announced everybody screamed for a few seconds then got quiet and jumped in the cars and left. Where she was went from 50 people to zero in a couple minutes. I find that weird. Am guessing there is some deeper plan going on?


She's not in front of the police/court building then.   I'm watching a split feed of this guy speek and the mob outside right now and there are at least 500.  granted 75-100 ran from the area right after they knew - I'm guessing the town is getting torn up right now.

but there are a bunch of people facing off against the cops right now

-t

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## ghengis86

> Dancing with the Stars is on.


Football. Doubleheader.

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## chudrockz

Watching Livestream something called Angel's Angle they are talking about rooftop snipers.

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## Schifference

Prosecutor doesn't seem like he had his heart into obtaining an indictment.

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## phill4paul

> And so it begins.
> 
> They didn't spend months providing evidence in an unbiased fashion, they spent several months trying to convince the grand jury that Wilson was innocent.  That was his trial, conducted entirely in a private setting.





> Jury instructions are the set of legal rules that jurors ought follow when deciding a case. Jury instructions are given to the jury by the jury instructor, who usually reads them aloud to the jury. They are often the subject of discussion of the case, how they will decide who is guilty, and are given by the judge in order to make sure their interests are represented and nothing prejudicial is said.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_instructions

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## idiom

Rand need to get in there and get beat down with a truncheon.

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## phill4paul

> Prosecutor doesn't seem like he had his heart into obtaining an indictment.


  Prostitutors are, at heart, liaryers.

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## otherone

> Prosecutor doesn't seem like he had his heart into obtaining an indictment.


Zuh?
No plea deal?

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## invisible

> http://www.ustream.tv/channel/bassemmasri
> 
> Protest stream here.


Stream just went offline.  Are any of the other streams also down?  The last thing shown on this one was the front line of cops actually shaking, and looking very scared.

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## DFF

There could be a delayed reaction riot tomorrow when temperatures warm up.

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## Thor

Live stream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo8dx8ZpCXQ

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## ChristianAnarchist

> STASI GONNA STASI


Goons gonna goon...

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## ghengis86

They probably should have waited til the first of the month too

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## invisible

A different stream (not sure which one) is showing shots being fired into the crowd by the cops.

stream is from freethoughtproject.com

one cop car has been flipped over already

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## tangent4ronpaul

Reporter there said after announcement, cops showed in riot gear, rocks and water bottles thrown, some firecrackers went off, many spread out into the city...  NG went into the courthouse to secure it.

The "peaceful" part of the crowd listened to the guy talk via large speaker.

Tear gas deployed and cops maneuvering

cops rushed, gas mask thrown at cops.

crowd getting worked up

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## ghengis86

> A different stream (not sure which one) is showing shots being fired into the crowd by the cops.
> 
> stream is from freethoughtproject.com


Rubber, tear gas or real?

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## ghengis86

Police car smashed up

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## tangent4ronpaul

cops have moved back hiding behind police cars.

most protesters have now gone into Ferguson proper

1,000 cops were deployed for this, reporter said he only saw 30 there.  Where are the rest?

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## invisible

> Rubber, tear gas or real?


No idea.  Cops have taken defensive positions behind cars.  Tear gas is starting to be launched.

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## DFF

VICE News stream:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nsyDczPdmg

Things are stating to heat up.

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## tangent4ronpaul

looks like some are trying to overturn a police car

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## Lindsey

I'm watching this stream.  

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/z/

Seems pretty peaceful. Just a lot of FTP chanting.

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## rprprs

Obama speaking now... telling us how to react.

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## tangent4ronpaul

lottaa laser beams being trained on protesters from rooftop snipers - the night vision makes um show up good

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## westkyle

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/bassemmasri "If they don't want rocks thrown at them they should leave" - How are we supposed to take some of these protesters seriously?

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## tangent4ronpaul

TON of tear gas just went off

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## presence

*Smashing Brick Through Cop Car Window:
*
https://vine.co/v/O1Xu6lTu6lP

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## presence



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## Antischism

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/bassemmasri

It's all going down here.

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## tangent4ronpaul

I just counted about 40 tear gas grenades - sounds like a bunch of flashbangs too - you can't even see the street now

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## Schifference

Probably would be/have been a non eventful evening if the Police would have taken the night off.

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## presence



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## ghengis86

Obama "negative reaction makes for good TV"

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## invisible

Protestors attempting to flip over a second cop car, according to announcements being made by the cops.  Streamer is now well back in the crowd, so it wasn't on the video.  Switched to the other stream from freethoughtproject, and that streamer is in Clayton, reporting that tear gas and rubber bullets are being deployed in both Clayton and Ferguson.

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## tangent4ronpaul

line of 3 MRAPS - no, more like 5 going down the street in a side by side line.
first mention of vandalism
lots of tear gas

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## ghengis86

Man with hands up in front of NG armored vehicles, Tianamem square style

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## invisible

> http://www.ustream.tv/channel/bassemmasri
> 
> It's all going down here.


TY, switching back to this stream, now that it's apparently back up.

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## kcchiefs6465

This is the song they are referencing...

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## muh_roads

This feels like something is going to start.

The media whore provocateurs are in full swing...

Watch MSNBC post #42

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## tangent4ronpaul

thick line of protesters standing off from armored vehicles.

MASSIVE tear gass! - protesters scattering

can't see the street again

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## invisible

Tear gas canisters now being shot directly *at* individual protesters.

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## presence

This stream is hot:


http://www.ustream.tv/channel/bassem...m_source=embed


83,000 live views... from the heart of the teargas

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

Another massive volley of tear gas

----------


## Suzanimal

Obama's statement, starts at the 11:25 mark

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

any news from NYC, Chicago, LA, DC, etc?

----------


## presence



----------


## presence



----------


## presence



----------


## tangent4ronpaul

pics of a lot of broken store windows
then cut to a huge convoy of about 100 cop cars coming into the area.  I'm guessing they are full - not single operator.

lots more riot cops on scene

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

wonder how busy the church med clinics have been...

----------


## limequat

So the rioting is centralized at the police station instead of the local businesses?  Win?

----------


## limequat

Where's Eric Frein when you need him?

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

pretty good fire going on
lots more tear gas being fired right now
stun grenades
APC's

----------


## TheTexan

They're just having a little fun.  They'll calm down after they expend their energy.  Just let them run around for a bit.

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

TG was def used before they are claiming it's only smoke now.
riot line of about 100 cops in riot gear in front of police HQ

in town - smashing shops, looting
car on fire

----------


## twomp

> Not supporting thugs doesn't mean you support the militarization of the police and instances of unjust police brutality. But in the case of one Trayvon Martin (and now Michael Brown)...he/they got what was coming to him. There are consequences for being a violent idiot.


Sounds like you do because you are supporting their reasons. What did Trayvon Martin do again that made him "deserve" what was coming to him. Being black in a white neighborhood offends you doesn't it?

----------


## invisible

Cop car on fire, all the ammo inside is exploding.

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

gunshots - unclear from where or who

----------


## DP714

nvm...

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

> Cop car on fire, all the ammo inside is exploding.


unless diff car/feed - shots are too regularly spaced for that.

----------


## phill4paul

> Sounds like you do because you are supporting their reasons. What did Trayvon Martin do again that made him "deserve" what was coming to him. Being black in a white neighborhood offends you doesn't it?


 http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...-of-a-SWAT-cop

----------


## invisible

> gunshots - unclear from where or who


It's inside the cop car being torched.

----------


## otherone

> They're just having a little fun.  They'll calm down after they expend their energy.  Just let them run around for a bit.



the cops or the protestors?

----------


## presence



----------


## invisible

> unless diff car/feed - shots are too regularly spaced for that.


Well, then those wouldn't be the first shots fired.  Apparently when the tear gas canisters were being shot at individual protestors, they were targeting those specific individuals because they had cameras.

----------


## brushfire

Seasons Greetings from Ferguson - co: Bassem

----------


## James Madison

Jeezus. I leave for three months and this place turns into the $#@!in HuffPo? What tha $#@!, RPFs?

----------


## TheTexan

> Jeezus. I leave for three months and this place turns into the $#@!in HuffPo? What tha $#@!, RPFs?


I always did like the HuffPo.  or at least the abbreviation, 'HuffPo'

----------


## presence



----------


## phill4paul

Hands raised. Don't shoot. Means different things to different folk.





  Raising hands only comes through victory. 

  Which only comes through raising arms.

----------


## James Madison

> I always did like the HuffPo.  or at least the abbreviation, 'HuffPo'


All I know is, I'm enjoying some liberal tears right now.

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

Whole lotta looting going on

They tried to get into MickyD's, gave up and are sacking a meat market/liquor store right now.  Really, the whole business district.

----------


## presence



----------


## tangent4ronpaul

They got into Micky D's

news camera just got taken out

----------


## JK/SEA

> Jeezus. I leave for three months and this place turns into the $#@!in HuffPo? What tha $#@!, RPFs?


well, we're glad your back to raise the level of discourse.

whaddya got?...

----------


## presence



----------


## SeanTX

Live feed of police scanner  http://www.ustream.tv/channel/st-lou...police-scanner

The Walgreens is on fire now  ...

----------


## ghengis86

> All I know is, I'm enjoying some liberal tears right now.


Post some examples por favor!

I love liberal tears!

----------


## James Madison

> well, we're glad your back to raise the level of discourse.
> 
> whaddya got?...


What about my back?




> Post some examples por favor!
> 
> I love liberal tears!


Facebook, brah!

----------


## ghengis86

> What about my back?
> 
> 
> 
> Facebook, brah!


Sorry brah...not on the FedBook

----------


## Antischism

> Jeezus. I leave for three months and this place turns into the $#@!in HuffPo? What tha $#@!, RPFs?


Oh look, a bootlicker for the PD.

----------


## presence

Live NYC:




> NYPD-KKK HOW MANY KIDS HAVE YOU KILLED TODAY?
> NYPD-KKK HOW MANY KIDS HAVE YOU KILLED TODAY?
> NYPD-KKK HOW MANY KIDS HAVE YOU KILLED TODAY?

----------


## presence



----------


## invisible

orenbus is conspicuous in his absence

----------


## Suzanimal

The caption reads:




> Police detain a demonstrator amid tear gas during a demonstration to protest the death of 18-year-old Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, on November 24, 2014.

----------


## presence

Walgreens

----------


## James Madison

> Oh look, a bootlicker for the PD.


If cop hating was a sport I'd be the world champ. Got any evidence to back that up or do you just enjoy lying about others to suit your ends?

----------


## presence



----------


## tangent4ronpaul

looks like Fresno and NYC have seen tear gas.

high levels of activity in Detroit, Orlando, Atlanta, Chicago, DC, LA

at least roads blocked to more kinetic.

Police backing up, protesters advancing - music to my ears! 

Fergason - walmart and beauty supply on fire

Finally - FIRE FIGHTERS ARE DEALING WITH FIRES!

----------


## DFF

> Jeezus. I leave for three months and this place turns into the $#@!in HuffPo? What tha $#@!, RPFs?


A leftist element is definitely afoot at RPFs....liberal pansies trying to co-opt the liberty movement, and transform it into a marxist $#@!hole.

More proof that any organization that is not explicitly right-wing will over time become left-wing.

----------


## Brett85

What a bunch of violent thugs who have absolutely no respect at all for private property.

----------


## presence



----------


## Antischism

> If cop hating was a sport I'd be the world champ. Got any evidence to back that up or do you just enjoy lying about others to suit your ends?


Then what was the purpose of the comments you've made in this thread other than to downplay what's happening?

----------


## Tywysog Cymru

I highly doubt that the cop was innocent, when was the last time a cop got convicted of murder?

----------


## Antischism

> What a bunch of *violent thugs* who have absolutely no respect at all for private property.


Blow that dog whistle.

----------


## Deborah K

> 


That was weird.  First he over prepares (if there is such a thing), then he backs off completely - no defense at all.  He seems swewy.

----------


## jmdrake

> Walgreens


So much for black Friday.

----------


## CPUd

> My reporter friend on the ground in Ferguson, just said that after the no indictment was announced everybody screamed for a few seconds then got quiet and jumped in the cars and left. Where she was went from 50 people to zero in a couple minutes. I find that weird. Am guessing there is some deeper plan going on?


start at 5:20:

----------


## orenbus

> orenbus is conspicuous in his absence


Sorry was just lighting a couple of cop cars on fire....I mean uh...watching the streams/news with the family...yea that's it.. yea...

----------


## Mr.NoSmile

Because rioting and looting always helped...

----------


## presence

> I got a whole buncha militarized soldiers marchin' towards me... ima march away from them!


..

----------


## jmdrake

> A leftist element is definitely afoot at RPFs....liberal pansies trying to co-opt the liberty movement, and transform it into a marxist $#@!hole.
> 
> More proof that any organization that is not explicitly right-wing will over time become left-wing.


trollin trollin trollin...look more racist trollin...DFF not knowin...troll onnnn...!

----------


## TheTexan

> Because rioting and looting always helped...


I don't always riot, but when I do, I do so aimlessly and purposelessly.

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

They are doing Black Friday early - didn't you get the memo?

Philly has a good turnout but looks peaceful right now.

NYC is PACKED!

----------


## presence



----------


## jmdrake

> Because rioting and looting always helped...


It helps racists like DFF feel important.

----------


## James Madison

> Then what was the purpose of the comments you've made in this thread other than to downplay what's happening?


I'm sorry. I forgot that I have to justify my posts for your viewing. I'll make sure to keep that in mind.




> I highly doubt that the cop was innocent, when was the last time a cop got convicted of murder?


Tywysog has some super-secret evidence stashed away. It's so secret that even he doesn't know where it is.

----------


## DP714

What is that thing on top of the armored vehicle?

----------


## phill4paul

> What a bunch of violent thugs who have absolutely no respect at all for private property.


  neg burn...

  Thas just turrible....


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...set-Forfeiture

----------


## presence



----------


## devil21

ROFL!  Anybody just see that guy yell "$#@! CNN!" into Don Lemon's mic?  awesome

----------


## orenbus

Updated List of Streams:

CNN:
http://www.livenewschat.eu/breaking/

MSNBC:
http://www.livenewschat.eu/politics/

KSTK/NBC News
http://www.mediaite.com/online/watch...-announcement/

Fox 2 News - St. Louis
http://fox2now.com/on-air/live-streaming-2/

BassemMasri  (currently at around 90k viewers)
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/bassemmasri

Tim Pool
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1pXvKgPmeo

Vice News (Danny Gould)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nsyDczPdmg

Global Revolution
http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution

heatherdemian
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/heatherdemian

occupythemob
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/occupythemob

I am Mike Brown
http://new.livestream.com/ASN/events/3271930

St. Louis County Police Scanner 
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/st-lou...police-scanner

----------


## invisible

> What is that thing on top of the armored vehicle?


It's too fuzzy to really be able to tell, but my first two guesses would be a satellite dish or a sound cannon.  The latter I would think to be more likely.

----------


## presence



----------


## presence

> "who ever doesn't move north is going to jail"


..

----------


## otherone

> Then what was the purpose of the comments you've made in this thread other than to downplay what's happening?


There seems to be an element here that believes it important that this issue continues appearing racial.

----------


## tasteless

apparently there's a protest going on in times square, I'd go out there and live report if i wasn't dead tired lol

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

> What is that thing on top of the armored vehicle?


It's either a hatch or a sonic weapon.  I'm leaning for hatch.

lines of 100 riot cops are holding back the mob so firefighters can deal with the fires.  4 Furgenson buildings currently on fire.

tons of tear gas just got fired - the protesters were breaking the line.

gunshots

----------


## CPUd



----------


## presence

RE the cars on fire... I suspect they took three cop cars with high mileage and made them "gimmies" / "freebies"

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

gunfire - at least 2 handguns

----------


## twomp

I'm glad the media is showing and amplifying all these riots. It helps remind the country what heroes our cops are. Thank god the cops are here to save the day.

----------


## Antischism

> I'm sorry. I forgot that I have to justify my posts for your viewing. I'll make sure to keep that in mind.
> 
> 
> 
> Tywysog has some super-secret evidence stashed away. It's so secret that even he doesn't know where it is.


So you were just $#@! posting? Okay.

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

firefight - cops are returning fire
(gunfire)

----------


## RPfan1992

According to the live stream, there is a lot of gun fire going on.

----------


## James Madison

> So you were just $#@! posting? Okay.


That's your territory. My bad.

----------


## TheTexan

> I don't always riot, but when I do, I do so aimlessly and purposelessly.


Hold the phone.  Are they burning the police station?

----------


## devil21

Apparently Don Lemon is unable to function without someone telling him what to say into his earpiece.

----------


## presence

DAMN

homeboy I've been watchin' all night w/ 90,000 live viewers on his iPhone just got his phone stolen.

https://twitter.com/bassem_masri

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/bassem...m_source=embed

----------


## puppetmaster

> DAMN
> 
> homeboy I've been watchin' all night w/ 90,000 live viewers on his iPhone just got his phone stolen.


Awwww

----------


## brushfire

Looks like Bassem is out of commission.  People are saying his phone was swiped - You could see him, or someone, running with the device and finally it cut out.  Not sure if he was gassed or if someone took off with his device.

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

at least 60-70 shots fired.  Ferguson

Thousands of protesters in NYC

Oakland, etc.

----------


## tasteless

dang R.I.P based bassem

----------


## brushfire

Looks like he's back in business.

----------


## DFF

> Apparently Don Lemon is unable to function without someone telling him what to say into his earpiece.


Lemon reminds me of Tom Dubois from the Boondocks.

----------


## tasteless

> Looks like he's back in business.


no, his phone was stolen, if it goes back on it's the thief using it

https://twitter.com/bassem_masri/sta...04139634106368

----------


## DP714

Damn it! It looks like Bassem got jacked. Wtf?! Who the hell would do that right now?! Bassem's twitter says he has a back up phone and will be back up soon


EDIT: Nvm...he said he will live tweet now.

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

> Looks like Bassem is out of commission.  People are saying his phone was swiped - You could see him, or someone, running with the device and finally it cut out.  Not sure if he was gassed or if someone took off with his device.


could it be batteries?  ISP data limits?

----------


## ghengis86

> firefight - cops are returning fire
> (gunfire)


Dang. 

Guy on the loca NBC affiliate reported lots of gunfire. Public Storage office (looks like a two story house) on fire no firefighters; deli/meat store was engulfed but being put out and looks to be under control; beauty supply store was on fire and they put it out.

----------


## presence



----------


## CPUd

> 


This is an instant classic!

----------


## COpatriot



----------


## presence

https://vine.co/v/OAgPgXQnmKT

Dreadhead white girl to black cop:




> "How does it feel to represent an institution that's killing your people?"

----------


## presence



----------


## CPUd

O'Reilly Auto Parts on Florissant fully engulfed.

200 protesters in lot all armed.

70 at Red's BBQ setting fires could be armed.

----------


## presence



----------


## COpatriot

> *Ferguson peeps also shut down an interstate*
> 
> Is this the start of the American Spring?


Idiots. They better not try that here where the roads here are icy as hell. That'll get someone killed.

----------


## invisible

Are there any other streams working that aren't from youtube or livestream?  Those aren't working for us.  Of the ustream ones (which DO work), heatherdemian is just driving around in a car somewhere and the occupythemob one is down.  The infowars stream isn't working for us, either.

----------


## presence

damn dude gets jacked:

https://vine.co/v/MeMuD0OELKl

----------


## CPUd

> Are there any other streams working that aren't from youtube or livestream?  Those aren't working for us.  Of the ustream ones (which DO work), heatherdemian is just driving around in a car somewhere and the occupythemob one is down.  The infowars stream isn't working for us, either.


St. Louis County police scanner:
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/st-lou...police-scanner

----------


## presence

police throw flash bang into crowd

https://vine.co/v/O1XVd955Mau

----------


## invisible

> St. Louis County police scanner:
> http://www.ustream.tv/channel/st-lou...police-scanner


That isn't video, though.  Or is it?

----------


## presence

via twitter:

----------


## CPUd

> That isn't video, though.  Or is it?


Technically it is a video, but audio only.  You can hear stuff on there, though, that shows up on twitter a few minutes later.

----------


## phill4paul

> And I guess you're all for the looting of private businesses as well?  The looters have destroyed private businesses.


Whenever there is revolution the businesses that survived were supported by the the members of the community. Those that treated people fairly and in kind were defended by those same people. Do you know anything about history? 
Of course the owners are within their right to defend their property. Only not so much so in Soyuz AmeriKa.
Gotta call the troops. Make it right. 
In a revolution you have four choices. Side on the government. Side on the people. Defend your property or get the $#@! out and take a loss by not siding.
It is what it is. Nothing new here.

----------


## presence

O'Reilly's, Advanced Auto, and Autozone all on fire #ferguson

----------


## presence

*FULL GRAND JURY REPORT

TRANSCRIPT
*

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/n...P=share_btn_tw

----------


## presence



----------


## CPUd

> O'Reilly's, Advanced Auto, and Autozone all on fire #ferguson


LOL they have something against aftermarket auto parts?

----------


## presence



----------


## tangent4ronpaul

> via twitter:


LOL!!!!

----------


## presence

> 1000's in the streets of Chicago


..

----------


## invisible

> O'Reilly's, Advanced Auto, and Autozone all on fire #ferguson


"Tomorrow you're homeless
Tonight it's a blast"

----------


## presence



----------


## presence

owner of looted store stands in mess:

https://vine.co/v/O1XlODJtUrh

----------


## phill4paul

> via twitter:


  I'll burn in hell for this but..Black Friday comes earlier every year. 

  That's comic cynicism, folks. No need to get your nut-sack in a bind.

----------


## presence



----------


## CPUd

Stolen cars rammed through Taco Bell and auto tire shop.

Media will be allowed to move freely at their own discretion (current standing order)

----------


## osan

> Ferguson peeps also shut down an interstate
> 
> Is this the start of the American Spring?


Let us hope not, because this is not the proper foundation for it, IMO.

I have no idea what the truth of the shooting is, but what if that cop is telling the truth?  Hard to believe, I agree, but given what was at stake, those stakes now being visited upon the city, would it not have been better to at least have a show trial if the evidence indicated charges were warranted?  Even corruption goes only so far, thereafter the sense of self-preservation kicks in.  Given this, is it not most likely that the grand jury saw no sufficient indications to bring charges against the coppie?

Therefore, if we grant for argument's sake that charges were not warranted, then this rioting is based on a lie and that makes it a bad springboard for nationwide protest, again IMO.  Where were the rioters when that little boy had his face blown half-off by a flash-bang?  And pardon me if I raise the race issue, but where was all the black outrage for that small child?  So sorry, but those bastards are a raft of hypocrites, so pardon me if I cannot get too teary-eyed about what is going on now.

Oh, let them burn the city to the ground if that is what they want, but it does nobody any good in the longer term.  And it would not surprise me a whit to find renewed demands for gun control after this blows over, which it will.

For Pete's sake, we are daily presented with a hundred valid reasons to riot and start shooting, but it's ALWAYS the inappropriate pretexts where the action begins.  Always the right action for the wrong reasons.  Just how bottomlessly stupid are these people?  Just how bottomlessly stupid is that question?

----------


## presence



----------


## presence



----------


## presence



----------


## tangent4ronpaul

> Whenever there is revolution the businesses that survived were supported by the the members of the community. Those that treated people fairly and in kind were defended by those same people. Do you know anything about history? 
> Of course the owners are within their right to defend their property. Only not so much so in Soyuz AmeriKa.
> Gotta call the troops. Make it right. 
> In a revolution you have four choices. Side on the government. Side on the people. Defend your property or get the $#@! out and take a loss by not siding.
> It is what it is. Nothing new here.


NO!  -  The looters generally came from out of town and don't know the good businesses from the bad.

I'm guessing we are going to get re-runs of this for at least a week.  I do not mean pre-recorded...

Anyone else notice that the 200+ DHS cars have never been mentioned.  The tin foil hat part of me wants to say: AWESOME live fire exercise!  Bonuses all around!

If there is anything to that - you are playing with fire Baeches!

-t

----------


## invisible

try this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa4S1_v-YJ4



much better

----------


## presence



----------


## presence

> Manhattan Bridge Closed By Protesters


..

----------


## presence

BLOODS AND CRIPS UNITED:

----------


## Antischism

Nothing new in Amerika.

----------


## Ender

> I haven't belittled anybody, but both sides of this are getting played by the media.  We always see protests and riots when the decedent is guilty, and we always hear crickets when the decedent is innocent.  The same pattern all over the country, every time.  This is not being driven by locals getting fed up, this is being driven by a deceitful and evil M$M machine unafraid to profit off of blood.
> 
> When the same pattern emerges everywhere all the time, you look for commonalities.  The locals are different in every event, so that is not a commonality.  The commonality is the media.  They play up and hype up the ones they think the decedent is guilty because riots over guilty people increase tensions and divisions and controversy, which in turn increases commercial revenue.
> 
> I'm not belittling the citizens of Ferguson, they are the victims of media deceit.  
> 
> Why do YOU think people go ape$#@! over the Trayvons and the Browns, but can't even be bothered to lift a finger over the BouBous and the Gurleys?  Is it that people just love the guilty and hate the innocent, or is there a deeper connection driving this perverse pattern?


Sorry Dude- didn't mean it to sound personal. Just discussing my POV.

I don't think this is necessarily media driven; I hope that maybe The Matrix is finally being seen for what it is.

----------


## presence



----------


## enhanced_deficit

*swc dronegangsta "begs" for calm according to DM:*

 
 told the  nation that violence won't solve problems, while split-screens showed  the strets of Ferguson exploding into pandemonium




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2848308/Obama-begs-calm-rioters-set-fires-attack-police-cars-Ferguson-grand-jury-refuses-indict-police-officer-Michael-Brown-case.html

*November 24, 2014*

*Go to Ferguson Right Now, President Obama, and Give Your Biggest Race Speech Yet*

----------


## otherone

> In a revolution you have four choices. Side on the government. Side on the people. Defend your property or get the $#@! out and take a loss by not siding.
> It is what it is. Nothing new here.


The tea at the bottom of Boston harbor is the property of the East India Tea Company.

----------


## presence



----------


## Antischism



----------


## presence

cops pointing shotguns at protesters

https://vine.co/v/O1XZ0bMa9YW

----------


## invisible

The heatherdemian stream is back on the streets of Ferguson again.  No real action, but someone is explaining that the cops are all well away from where the looting is going on, and aren't doing anything about it.

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

> Let us hope not, because this is not the proper foundation for it, IMO.
> 
> I have no idea what the truth of the shooting is, but what if that cop is telling the truth?  Hard to believe, I agree, but given what was at stake, those stakes now being visited upon the city, would it not have been better to at least have a show trial if the evidence indicated charges were warranted?  Even corruption goes only so far, thereafter the sense of self-preservation kicks in.  Given this, is it not most likely that the grand jury saw no sufficient indications to bring charges against the coppie?
> 
> Therefore, if we grant for argument's sake that charges were not warranted, then this rioting is based on a lie and that makes it a bad springboard for nationwide protest, again IMO.  Where were the rioters when that little boy had his face blown half-off by a flash-bang?  And pardon me if I raise the race issue, but where was all the black outrage for that small child?  So sorry, but those bastards are a raft of hypocrites, so pardon me if I cannot get too teary-eyed about what is going on now.
> 
> Oh, let them burn the city to the ground if that is what they want, but it does nobody any good in the longer term.  And it would not surprise me a whit to find renewed demands for gun control after this blows over, which it will.
> 
> For Pete's sake, we are daily presented with a hundred valid reasons to riot and start shooting, but it's ALWAYS the inappropriate pretexts where the action begins.  Always the right action for the wrong reasons.  Just how bottomlessly stupid are these people?  Just how bottomlessly stupid is that question?


This doesn't have a lot to do with the guy that got shot and died.  It has a lot to do with the militarization of the police and their being above the law.  MB is just the poster child.  This has a lot to do with the whole corrupt chrony system.

-t

----------


## DFF

> Nothing new in Amerika.


Ahh, more white-guilt propaganda from our local Rabbi.

----------


## presence

_A riot is the language of the unheard._

----------


## orenbus

Vice News is in the thick of things now, reporter said he never thought he would have to put on his bullet proof vest in the United States, he said just to be clear the last time he had to put on his vest was in Gaza. The reporter and camera person are moving towards the buildings currently on structural fires where live fire has been going on in a stead stream in the past two hours.

----------


## orenbus

Updated List of Streams:

CNN:
http://www.livenewschat.eu/breaking/

MSNBC:
http://www.livenewschat.eu/politics/

KSTK/NBC News
http://www.mediaite.com/online/watch...-announcement/

Fox 2 News - St. Louis
http://fox2now.com/on-air/live-streaming-2/

Vice News (Danny Gold)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nsyDczPdmg

BassemMasri
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/bassemmasri

Tim Pool
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1pXvKgPmeo

heatherdemian
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/heatherdemian

KMOX Radio
http://player.radio.com/listen/stati...dio-1120-kmox/

Global Revolution
http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution

occupythemob
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/occupythemob

I am Mike Brown
http://new.livestream.com/ASN/events/3271930

St. Louis County Police Scanner
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/st-lou...police-scanner

----------


## presence

well kids... I gotta call it a night... $#@! to do in the mornin' 


Keep me posted 

Will check back in the AM

----------


## otherone

> Ahh, more white-guilt propaganda from our local Rabbi.


here's a guilt-free one for you:

----------


## twomp

When all 4 major outlets cover something, the media wants you to think a certain way. Thank gawd for the police, they are all heroes!

----------


## presence



----------


## phill4paul

> NO!  -  The looters generally came from out of town and don't know the good businesses from the bad.
> 
> I'm guessing we are going to get re-runs of this for at least a week.  I do not mean pre-recorded...
> 
> Anyone else notice that the 200+ DHS cars have never been mentioned.  The tin foil hat part of me wants to say: AWESOME live fire exercise!  Bonuses all around!
> 
> If there is anything to that - you are playing with fire Baeches!
> 
> -t


  History. Caribbean by James Michener. Time and again plantation owners were saved by their conduct of their slaves. When revolution rolled through the slaves saved their owners. Stockholm syndrome? Perhaps. Does not mitigate a community attachment. _Most_ stores that were looted were probably franchise stores. They probably had a policy that put them at odds with their community. And I'm sure their insurance will cover them. When all is said and done..they will rebuild. Stock-holders will make a buck or two. Such is life.

----------


## orenbus



----------


## Suzanimal

Via the police scanner

Taco Bell is fully engulfed in flames and KMart is ablaze as well...lots of gunfire, sending backup, talking about taking back an intersection.

http://www.ustream.tv/Channel/St-Lou...Police-Scanner

----------


## osan

>

----------


## CPUd

Looting activity reported at Shoe Carnival and Dollar Tree

----------


## DFF

> No there isn't, in any and all cases, the cops got away.  That is not a big difference at all.  It is the exact same $#@!ing thing every $#@!ing time.  Get it yet?


The homeless guy and the woman suffered unjustly; Michale Brown did not. He got what was coming to him for being a violent psychopath.

----------


## CPUd

People walking down W Chambers carrying gas/kerosene cans.

----------


## brushfire

> Looting activity reported at Shoe Carnival and Dollar Tree


Poor fkn dollar tree.  Really?  They be snagg'n a whole box of "LA's Totally Awesome Cleaner"?

Well, assuming the world is still here in the morning, I'll be back.  I done had enough of structure fires, tear gas, and horns beeping.

----------


## BV2

There are many facets to this, obviously. Here is, what strikes me, as the most important: hear ye, hear ye: serfs, coloni, and other less than free people are guilty until proven otherwise. Being so, are liable to just and holy punishment by the state'$ men, death not reserved since the guilty don't need a trial; who, themselves are to be considered innocent, in every $#@!ing instance.  Darren Wilson: May your lower $#@! rot while your upper $#@! still pulls in air.

----------


## UWDude

> 


I don't know what country you've been living in, but you cant take a $#@! without money being forced from you by them.  Literally.

----------


## alucard13mm

> The homeless guy and the woman suffered unjustly; Michale Brown did not. He got what was coming to him for being a violent psychopath.


I agree. A thug met his end by a violent psychopath cop. Unless that robbery video was fabricated or was someone else... If he didn't rob the store, he probably would've lived a few more years.

----------


## UWDude

> The homeless guy and the woman suffered unjustly; Michale Brown did not. He got what was coming to him for being a violent psychopath.


And in the end, no cop got anything but a paid vacation, mayeb a slap on the wrist. Whether a victim is guilty as hell or innocent as an angel, there is one thing you can count on, a cop can rape them, beat them, rob them or shoot them, and there will be absolutely no consequences, whatsoever.

In the end, all the cases are identical.  Cops are above the law.  Period.

----------


## BV2

> I agree. A thug met his end by a violent psychopath cop. Unless that robbery video was fabricated or was someone else... If he didn't rob the store, he probably would've lived a few more years.


What a relief it is that such a sure judge as you exists. You a fan of John Locke? If so, try actually reading him. He was not executed at the place of the crime. If someone takes a shoe from your home, do you have a right to oil them after the fact? You must be mighty innocent of...er...everything if that is your stance.  As far as these fires on connfox, well, remember: "deploy the burners"

----------


## twomp

> The homeless guy and the woman suffered unjustly; Michale Brown did not. He got what was coming to him for being a violent psychopath.


Care to tell us what Trayvon Martin did again? Besides being black in a white neighborhood?

----------


## Weston White

> Unbelievable!!!  She has no protection, and her rights are being violated - all because 'they' fear a riot!  This is like Katrina.


Ditto this.  A class-action needs to be filed on the local government and police department for this bone-headed move.


ETA:

I am so utterly sick and tire of hearing/reading such pathetic excuses:




> said that officers must sometimes make “split-second and difficult decisions” and that Wilson “followed his training and followed the law.”

----------


## PRB

> Looting activity reported at Shoe Carnival and Dollar Tree


Before I comment on these rioters, I need to know whether they're oppressed minorities whose anger needs to be heard, or scumbag troublemakers discrediting peaceful protestors, or fake actors played by the police and media. 

My money is only them being scumbag troublemakers, seeing as Obama and Brown's family both condemn them.

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

> Michal Brown was caught on camera robbing a store just a few minutes before being shot by Officer Wilson.
> 
> Additionally, Brown was charged with murder as a juvenile. 
> 
> He was a thug with zero credibility; stop being deceptive and trying to make this lowlife look like the victim!


on camera - I've seen no conclusive proof of that other than that grainy, low res pic of someone doing a robbery did't seem to
match his high rez pic.

----------


## CPUd

> Before I comment on these rioters, I need to know whether they're oppressed minorities whose anger needs to be heard, or scumbag troublemakers discrediting peaceful protestors, or fake actors played by the police and media. 
> 
> My money is only them being scumbag troublemakers, seeing as Obama and Brown's family both condemn them.


If it's the same situation as what happened over the summer, the majority of people arrested were from out of town.  I don't think they are trying to discredit peaceful protesters, but they believe violence is the only way to bring about change.

----------


## BV2

> on camera - I've seen no conclusive proof of that other than that grainy, low res pic of someone doing a robbery did't seem to
> match his high rez pic.


It doesn't matter if he stole a box o blunts. Irrelevant. What matters is a cop, dubiously,iced someone, it became a media sensation, and the cop is being protected by the system. Old school propaganda: we are not above the law, but we are the law-officer friendlysmiles

----------


## UWDude

Private property huh?
right now on live stream, the Ferguson police are going to arrest a bunch of people for being on the balcony of a restaurant... ...the owner, Flo, is present, and says they are allowed to be at her restaurant.

http://rt.com/on-air/us-ferguson-rally-brown/

Ferguson police are claiming it is city property, even though it is clearly private property.

----------


## parocks

> I haven't belittled anybody, but both sides of this are getting played by the media.  We always see protests and riots when the decedent is guilty, and we always hear crickets when the decedent is innocent.  The same pattern all over the country, every time.  This is not being driven by locals getting fed up, this is being driven by a deceitful and evil M$M machine unafraid to profit off of blood.
> 
> When the same pattern emerges everywhere all the time, you look for commonalities.  The locals are different in every event, so that is not a commonality.  The commonality is the media.  They play up and hype up the ones they think the decedent is guilty because riots over guilty people increase tensions and divisions and controversy, which in turn increases commercial revenue.
> 
> I'm not belittling the citizens of Ferguson, they are the victims of media deceit.  
> 
> Why do YOU think people go ape$#@! over the Trayvons and the Browns, but can't even be bothered to lift a finger over the BouBous and the Gurleys?  Is it that people just love the guilty and hate the innocent, or is there a deeper connection driving this perverse pattern?


Sounds about right.  MSM doesn't like the "government clearly kills innocent person" story.  Because they like the government, or a more specific, accurate statement like that.  And that story makes everyone hate the government.

The MSM (and the Government) do like it when blacks and whites are separated on this issue.  Blacks are begged to treat this as a racial issue.  A WHITE cop, not a white COP.    Whites are presented with an unsympathetic victim - cops presented sympathetically enough for whites to take the cops side.  

Isn't general politics here on this site mostly about cops and all the shooting they do?  I can't keep track of all that.

This Ferguson thing just seemed like a sequel. The next Fast and Furious will have car chases.  Fires and riots are happening after the finding that the cop won't be punished.

It's almost a little interesting to look at the charts.  I guess I pay more attention to the "indie" government killings.  They aren't famous, they aren't covered much on tv, but they really tell the "government is bad" story better than the major label government killings which all seem to be formula.  They're quirkier, don't always have the same stuff in them.

I mean, they took the babies out of the car before they shot the DC woman.  That's quirky.  That's the kind of fact that if they talked about that all the time, it would really make the government - the federal government - look really bad.  So, it's more interesting and the message is more clear, like interesting lyrics.

There are lots of interesting government killings, but the msm only covers the dullest, most formulaic ones.  Ferguson is like Fast and Furious meets "Shake it Off".  Dull, boring, predictable.  Big explosions or fires.  There's a lot more choreography in the streets than you see in indie riots.

----------


## BV2

That people see only two sides indicates that theye already won the game.

----------


## parocks

> Sounds about right.  MSM doesn't like the "government clearly kills innocent person" story.  Because they like the government, or a more specific, accurate statement like that.  And that story makes everyone hate the government.
> 
> The MSM (and the Government) do like it when blacks and whites are separated on this issue.  Blacks are begged to treat this as a racial issue.  A WHITE cop, not a white COP.    Whites are presented with an unsympathetic victim - cops presented sympathetically enough for whites to take the cops side.  
> 
> Isn't general politics here on this site mostly about cops and all the shooting they do?  I can't keep track of all that.
> 
> This Ferguson thing just seemed like a sequel. The next Fast and Furious will have car chases.  Fires and riots are happening after the finding that the cop won't be punished.
> 
> It's almost a little interesting to look at the charts.  I guess I pay more attention to the "indie" government killings.  They aren't famous, they aren't covered much on tv, but they really tell the "government is bad" story better than the major label government killings which all seem to be formula.  They're quirkier, don't always have the same stuff in them.
> ...


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...s,_August_2014
List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, August 2014

----------


## PRB

> If it's the same situation as what happened over the summer, the majority of people arrested were from out of town.  I don't think they are trying to discredit peaceful protesters, but they believe violence is the only way to bring about change.


they may not intend to discredit or hurt any innocent people, but they can probably fairly be characterized as not caring and have no respect for others.

----------


## Natural Citizen

Dang. I missed everything. What happened? Anything good in this thread? Well...you know what I mean.

----------


## CPUd

Listening to the police scanner, sounds like some opportunists are out there as well.   Lot of reports of false calls, burglar alarms, breakins scattered around.

----------


## AuH20

The wards of the state battling the police.This is win-win from my perspective. I hope they batter each other.

----------


## UWDude

> The wards of the state battling the police.This is win-win from my perspective. I hope they batter each other.


the only ones battered will be the wards, as always.

----------


## RonPaulIsGreat

Damn it, missed all the sweet looting opportunities again.

----------


## devil21

Bassem eh?  Does anyone know who Bassem is?

Some might think this article is interesting....
http://www.fbi.gov/stlouis/press-rel...0/sl040110.htm

I wonder if all the burned buildings are a real estate redevelopment plan being passed off as something else.  100 FBI agents were sent to Ferguson, no?

----------


## Weston White

> He wasn't talking about the police, but people there who do stuff to set the police off.  Like during a peaceful protest, someone throws a bottle at the police line (actually happened).


Oh, you mean like a paid police informant, crisis actor, or police implanted protester/mole/imposter?

----------


## Weston White

Isn’t the grand-jury’s answer to the Brown incident a green light for every law enforcement officer standing in a line this night to simply open fire upon any and all protesters who acts “overly” aggressive towards law enforcement personnel, charges at their line, assaults police property, or steals from others and attempts to flee?




> ‘U.S. Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. on Monday night called Brown’s death a “tragedy” that has “sparked a national conversation about the need to ensure confidence between law enforcement and the communities they protect and serve.”’


However, what really needs to be sparked is a national conversation on the clear double-standard of the XIV Amendment.  Meaning why can LEO lawfully shoot a man 10-times or 22-times and then refuse them medical treatment until their death merely for “charging at them” or because they were holding a firearm while standing inside their private dwelling, but a citizen or “civilian” under identical circumstances cannot lawfully fire some much as 1-shot at them without being charged with manslaughter as a minimum?

----------


## AuH20

Many of these unaffiliated shops are not insured for arson. This is so unnecessary.

----------


## Weston White

> 


...Says the man wholeheartedly committed to instigating WWIII; while having campaigned on the very promise of such "change"!

----------


## Weston White

> MSNBC unsurprisingly says the difference between the US and other Western countries is the guns using the rioting. Essentially, they just said it is best not to have guns in the US.


It sounds like Molotov cocktails are the grander issue in this riot, over a dozen razes thus far?  Perhaps they should just make those illegal to possess as well, because that would certainly prevent further havoc from occurring in the future...oh wait...guess that prohibition was a total fail.  Darn!

----------


## CPUd

> Oh, you mean like a paid police informant, crisis actor, or police implanted protester/mole/imposter?


Or a member of an activist group.

----------


## Weston White

> Michal Brown was caught on camera robbing a store just a few minutes before being shot by Officer Wilson.


Last time I checked the maximum penalty for non-weapons related robberies is generally up to 6-years in prison and was to be administered by a judge during sentencing after a jury returns their verdict and not summarily executed by 10-rounds to the body in plain view of the public by law enforcement personnel for whatever excuse (be it for lack of proper obedience to authority, not putting one's hands up fast enough or keeping them up long enough, running off down the street, walking or "charging" towards a police officer, or even punching or kicking them).  Has something changed recently that we all have not been made aware of yet?

Do individual police officers now have the grant of power to apply death-penalties now and within their infallible split-second decision making processes?

----------


## Weston White

> Or a member of an activist group.


Not so much, that is really only ever seen in the movies.

----------


## CPUd

> Not so much, that is really only ever seen in the movies.


You are correct.  I don't know how I didn't see it!  This is definitely a false flag, everything is staged.  They do this to take away our rights.

----------


## jmdrake

> the only ones battered will be the wards, as always.


Actually the shop owners are the ones being battered.  It's a lose/lose.

----------


## COpatriot

> Care to tell us what Trayvon Martin did again? Besides being black in a white neighborhood?


You mean other than violently attacking someone who hadn't really done anything?

----------


## jmdrake

> There's a very big difference between what happened to Michael Brown and what happened to that homeless man and the woman on the side of the road.





> The homeless guy and the woman suffered unjustly; Michale Brown did not. He got what was coming to him for being a violent psychopath.


You know what?  That's my point.  You're spending all this energy hating on my for busting your balls on your fake racist stats, that you've totally missed what I'm saying on Ferguson.  While I don't consider Brown a psychopath, he wasn't an innocent angel either and karma sucks.  The media is all over *this* case because *this* case has people divided.  The other cases could cause people to unite.

----------


## COpatriot

> BLOODS AND CRIPS UNITED:


Great people to have associated with your movement.

----------


## Weston White

> You are correct.  I don't know how I didn't see it!  This is definitely a false flag, everything is staged.  They do this to take away our rights.


Or needlessly instigated and then staged to aid an ongoing agenda, for example:




> “Get back or I’m going to shoot you,” Wilson says he told Brown.

----------


## Antischism

> Great people to have associated with your movement.


They were actually trying to protect the businesses in the area.

----------


## Antischism

Officer Brave McBraverson's "injuries"



"Orbital blowout fracture" guys, remember?

----------


## 69360

> They were actually trying to protect the businesses in the area.



gotta keep that protection money flowing

----------


## jmdrake

> gotta keep that protection money flowing


That's right.  Because without violence to justify the taxes paid to the boys in blue...oh wait...you're talking about the bloods and crips....nevermind.

----------


## anaconda

> Mentioned that the masks were banned in NYC after 9/11.


Does that include those knit masks that keep your face warm in extreme cold?

----------


## presence

I kept the best images of the evening posted all night till 1AM... I go to sleep and the content fades.  I am disappoint crew.

----------


## presence



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## presence



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## presence



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## presence



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## presence



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## presence



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## presence



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## presence



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## presence

> Sections  
> The Washington Post*North Korea: Ferguson was a ‘disgrace’ and the United States are now ‘laughingstock of the world’*
> 
>                       By Adam Taylor August 27    
> 
>  North  Korean leader Kim Jong Un during a visit to the Songdowon International  Children's Camp in an undated photo released by North Korea's Korean  Central News Agency in Pyongyang on July 6. (KCNA/Reuters)


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...-of-the-world/

----------


## presence



----------


## presence

Meanwhile on the other side of the planet in Kiev...

----------


## presence

Freeway shut down in Oakland

----------


## juleswin

Quick someone from Ukraine , Libya or Syria come and sanction the US for using excessive force on protestors killing and burning police men. Oh wait, they haven't started killing and burning police men and they are using excessive force? I guess that calls for an invasion, military aid to protestors or something, the innocent have to be protected NOW!!!

This is what it would sound like if the US is given a taste of their own medicine when it comes to foreign policy.

----------


## presence



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## presence



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## presence



----------


## Madison320

I think the entire police force should leave the town of Ferguson. As soon as they leave the violence will stop. Citizens will begin shopping for for their own protection agencies and governments and everything will be wonderful.

----------


## JK/SEA

> I think the entire police force should leave the town of Ferguson. As soon as they leave the violence will stop. Citizens will begin shopping for for their own protection agencies and governments and everything will be wonderful.


finally...someone who sees the best path to take as i did...

Its too logical, and therefore will not be a tactic that will be used, and we all know why...

----------


## brandon

> I think the entire police force should leave the town of Ferguson. As soon as they leave the violence will stop. Citizens will begin shopping for for their own protection agencies and governments and everything will be wonderful.


Not sure if srs

----------


## erowe1

> Not sure if srs


I can't tell either.

Even if he's joking, he's still more right than wrong.

----------


## specsaregood

> I think the entire police force should leave the town of Ferguson. As soon as they leave the violence will stop. Citizens will begin shopping for for their own protection agencies and governments and everything will be wonderful.


FWIW, the _"entire police force should leave the town of Ferguson"_ is only 50 something people.

----------


## Madison320

> finally...someone who sees the best path to take as i did...
> 
> Its too logical, and therefore will not be a tactic that will be used, and we all know why...


That was sarcasm.

----------


## JK/SEA

> Not sure if srs


so you support the current law enforcement tactics when it comes to protesters?....the large amount of taxpayer money spent on overtime, the equipment, and weapons, to defend a pissant biz that may employ minimum wage workers...

convince me this is good for taxpayers.

----------


## erowe1

> I predict pretty much nothing will happen.
> 
> Its too big, too many people are expecting far too much out of this. I see a few arrest, a bottle will be thrown and someone will be arrested, the crowd will go "SHAME ON YOU" and we will move onto the next "Bottle Nose Dolphin flu" Monday.


I don't know how I would have reacted to this post if I had read it right after if was posted.

But what a difference a day makes.

----------


## JK/SEA

> That was sarcasm.


too bad. I guess im getting too old to try and convince anyone of the folly of the police state...

carry on...and good luck with your mis-guided sarcasm.

----------


## jmdrake

> We are gonna have to agree to disagree then.  Ferguson is a small little town right in the middle of a major metropolitan city.   You could probably walk out of ferguson in be in a different "town" and not even know it.   I wouldn't consider anybody from most of  st.louis county as "non-local".  If you can take the metrobus there you are a local.    Even people from east st.louis should probably be considered local, but I'll give you that.
> 
> The people pushing that meme are trying to paint the image that the people causing the problem are coming from far away and just there to make trouble and arent' at all representative of the people of that community.  That's b.s.   Hell if the only people that showed up to this bruahaha were people that lived in the small borders of "ferguson", there wouldn't be enough people there to warrant any media.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson,_Missouri
_Ferguson is a city in St. Louis County, Missouri, United States.[1] It is part of the Greater St. Louis metropolitan area. The population was 21,203 at the 2010 census.[5]_

You're saying that you honestly believe that if all 21,203 people who live in "Ferguson proper" started rioting nobody would notice?  Divide that number by 10.  If 2,120 people rioted all at once that would garner media attention.

----------


## specsaregood

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson,_Missouri
> _Ferguson is a city in St. Louis County, Missouri, United States.[1] It is part of the Greater St. Louis metropolitan area. The population was 21,203 at the 2010 census.[5]_
> 
> You're saying that you honestly believe that if all 21,203 people who live in "Ferguson proper" started rioting nobody would notice?  Divide that number by 10.  If 2,120 people rioted all at once that would garner media attention.


No, I'm saying that if  the only people that showed up were actual residents of the small little locale known as ferguson then it would be a small crowd.  nowhere in my statement did I say that if *EVERY SINGLE PERSON*  living in the small borders of ferguson showed up.

----------


## JK/SEA

can anyone help me out here?...i'm wondering why this mantra of..''but they're not from here'' has any relevance?...

seems that if anyone has any sense of the workings of the U.S. Constitution, would be keeping their yap shut on the right of the people to protest, destruction and violence aside, people have a right to protest regardless of radical ideology.

The original Tea Party was off the hook then right?...no?

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> We are gonna have to agree to disagree then.  Ferguson is a small little town right in the middle of a major metropolitan city.   You could probably walk out of ferguson in be in a different "town" and not even know it.   I wouldn't consider anybody from most of  st.louis county as "non-local".  If you can take the metrobus there you are a local.    Even people from east st.louis should probably be considered local, but I'll give you that.
> 
> The people pushing that meme are trying to paint the image that the people causing the problem are coming from far away and just there to make trouble and arent' at all representative of the people of that community.  That's b.s.   Hell if the only people that showed up to this bruahaha were people that lived in the small borders of "ferguson", there wouldn't be enough people there to warrant any media.


When I lived near Los Angeles my experience was you could pass through three whole foreign countries over hundreds of miles without leaving contiguous urbanization.

----------


## specsaregood

> When I lived near Los Angeles my experience was you could pass through three whole foreign countries over hundreds of miles without leaving contiguous urbanization.


Right and when I lived in Redondo, I wouldnt consider somebody that lived in Hermosa or Torrance or even hollywood as an "out of towner" or non-local or any such thing.

----------


## juleswin

> I think the entire police force should leave the town of Ferguson. As soon as they leave the violence will stop. Citizens will begin shopping for for their own protection agencies and governments and everything will be wonderful.


Wishful thinking my friend. Half of the city would most likely be razed before things will get any better. Most people are out for revenge and people who are out for revenge tend not to act in a rational manner. The best thing would be to reverse the grand jury decision and give the man a fair trial.

----------


## jmdrake

> No, I'm saying that if  the only people that showed up were actual residents of the small little locale known as ferguson then it would be a small crowd.  nowhere in my statement did I say that if *EVERY SINGLE PERSON*  living in the small borders of ferguson showed up.


Okay.  What's your point?  Seriously?  Mine is that the vast majority of the rioters were not representative of Ferguson proper.  And you seem to be saying the same thing.  So.....what's your point?  That the riots the immediately after the killing were not from people bussed in from out of state?  Of course not.  That wouldn't even be possible.  The point that I'm making is that the rioters were by in large not burning up their own neighborhood.  To me that is a *very* important point.  It's easier to burn up someone else's neighborhood even if that neighborhood can be reached by "metro bus."  This time around I expect will see even more out of state rioters arrested.

----------


## JK/SEA

> Okay.  What's your point?  Seriously?  Mine is that the vast majority of the rioters were not representative of Ferguson proper.  And you seem to be saying the same thing.  So.....what's your point?  That the riots the immediately after the killing were not from people bussed in from out of state?  Of course not.  That wouldn't even be possible.  The point that I'm making is that the rioters were by in large not burning up their own neighborhood.  To me that is a *very* important point.  It's easier to burn up someone else's neighborhood even if that neighborhood can be reached by "metro bus."  This time around I expect will see even more out of state rioters arrested.


hate to tell you this, but why is it a wrong for ..'out of area' folks to not engage?...

----------


## SeanTX

Unfortunately, most people will look at what happened in Ferguson last night and say "this is why we need militarized police." However, I think it just showed how worthless they really are, since it doesn't seem they are ever used effectively.

 From what I saw and heard on the police scanners and livestreams, it appeared that the police were in total "observe and report" mode -- just doing things like reporting on fires, but not actually doing anything to intervene. I remember one report on the scanner of "people in the Walgreens appear to be starting a fire" -- but there was no indication cops were actually taking any action to try and stop it. 

 They were just watching it all from the safety of their vehicles, but doing nothing. Armed fire spotters basically, and armed escorts for the fire trucks. Of course the police and their supporters would say "back in the summer we tried to be proactive, and we got criticized for it, so now we'll just go hands off and do nothing."

 What they got criticism for was for things like snipers on MRAPs aiming rifles at peaceful crowds and firing rubber bullets and tear gas into mostly peaceful crowds  -- while often ignoring the looting and burning in other places nearby. 

I don't think anyone would give a damn about cops firing rubber bullets and tear gas at a crowd that's obviously trying to burn down a business, or actively looting it. If they had done a little of that last night it might have at least slowed things down a bit, but they didn't. I'm sure the attitude of the average cop there last night was "let it burn, so long as we can just contain it to Ferguson."

 Observe, report, stay safe, and let that sweet OT pay keep racking up ...

----------


## jmdrake

> hate to tell you this, but why is it a wrong for ..'out of area' folks to not engage?...


Ummmm....sentence structure difficult to decipher.  Did you mean to say "Why is it a wrong for 'out of area' folks *to* engage?"  Anyway it's wrong for anyone to burn the business of someone who had nothing to do with whatever the offending officer did.  And it's easier psychologically to burn a business in someone else's neighborhood.  Why is that so hard to understand?

----------


## JK/SEA

> Ummmm....sentence structure difficult to decipher.  Did you mean to say "Why is it a wrong for 'out of area' folks *to* engage?"  Anyway it's wrong for anyone to burn the business of someone who had nothing to do with whatever the offending officer did.  And it's easier psychologically to burn a business in someone else's neighborhood.  Why is that so hard to understand?


oops..yeah, morning hiccups with the brain....plus my left eye has an issue..gets hard to see what i type, but yeah, just thinking outside the box here...

'out of towners' doing stuff is the price we pay for allowing cops to be un-bridled...

i don't condone biz destruction, but i understand the 'whys'...

----------


## jmdrake

> oops..yeah, morning hiccups with the brain....plus my left eye has an issue..gets hard to see what i type, but yeah, just thinking outside the box here...
> 
> 'out of towners' doing stuff is the price we pay for allowing cops to be un-bridled...
> 
> i don't condone biz destruction, but i understand the 'whys'...


That's cool.  We all have brain farts.  Anyway, back to your point.  Do you remember the Watts riots?  How productive were they?  Here is a very good critique of them by a black author.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...081300103.html

So no.  I don't understand the "whys".  Why do something so counterproductive to your own cause?

----------


## osan

> Yeah, never understood that. 
> 
> "The police murdered a kid! The courts are corrupt! $#@! the police!"
> 
> "Lets go burn down our neighborhood and the stores we shop at!"
> 
> "Yeah!  That'll teach the cops!"
> 
> 
> I guess though that the out-of-town ers are responsible for most of the violence. And to the other point that the rioting draws out the cops. They did get a cop car though.



These people are in part being guided by those with no interest in justice.  The rest of it is garden variety, blind stupidity and cowardice.  How many of those people do you think have the guts to storm a police station?  That's what I thought.

----------


## orenbus



----------


## JK/SEA

> That's cool.  We all have brain farts.  Anyway, back to your point.  Do you remember the Watts riots?  How productive were they?  Here is a very good critique of them by a black author.
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...081300103.html
> 
> So no.  I don't understand the "whys".  Why do something so counterproductive to your own cause?


until you really know the true desperation of a group of people that have been 'marginalized' by the PTB, AND the ingrained cop worship, we will never know the true pain. Violence for the sake of violence is a dead end, but if violence can send a message, then so be it...people can only take so much bull$#@! until it overflows into society causing the anxiety i read in here and around the country....truth to power my friend...

----------


## JK/SEA

> These people are in part being guided by those with no interest in justice.  The rest of it is garden variety, blind stupidity and cowardice.  How many of those people do you think have the guts to storm a police station?  That's what I thought.



baby steps...first bring the issue of the Police State to the forefront, whether its baby bou, or Brown...doesn't matter. Keep those wounds open, rock peoples sensibilities. Make them look. Slap them up the side of their shallow brained heads, but make no mistake, the Police State is here whether you choose to deny it or not...this is the result. It will not end until the Police State mentality is ratcheted back big time...

carry on.

----------


## jmdrake

> until you really know the true desperation of a group of people that have been 'marginalized' by the PTB, AND the ingrained cop worship, we will never know the true pain. Violence for the sake of violence is a dead end, but if violence can send a message, then so be it...people can only take so much bull$#@! until it overflows into society causing the anxiety i read in here and around the country....truth to power my friend...


Okay:

1) Did you read the article?

2) Do you know I'm black?

I bring up number to in reference to the whole "really know the true desperation of a group of people that have been 'marginalized' by the PTB."  Yeah blacks have reasons to be upset.  Race riots are a stupid way to deal with those reasons.  The first black orchestrated race riots started *after* the peak of the civil rights movement.  (The article I linked explains this).  It would be like being native Americans being upset over the slaughter of the buffalo, finally getting control of all wild buffalo herds, and then slaughter buffalo and only cutting out the eyes to make necklaces.

----------


## jmdrake

> baby steps...first bring the issue of the Police State to the forefront, whether its baby bou, or Brown...doesn't matter. Keep those wounds open, rock peoples sensibilities. Make them look. Slap them up the side of their shallow brained heads, but make no mistake, the Police State is here whether you choose to deny it or not...this is the result. It will not end until the Police State mentality is ratcheted back big time...
> 
> carry on.


Yes it *does* matter.  You don't get it.  This kind of crap has been going on for over 40 years now.  Someone of questionable character gets killed by the cops, there's a riot, black people set ourselves back by destroying our own community, white people say "They're just whining" and point out that the police victim had questionable character, nothing changes, wash, rinse, repeat.  Baby Bou will *never* receive the attention he deserves by the liberal media.  Neither will Miriam Carey.  Neither will Kelly Thomas.  Interestingly enough, conservative media is covering the Miriam Carey story, but their voices aren't loud enough.

----------


## jllundqu

Bottom line:

Brown was a criminal who assaulted and stole as he pleased.  He assaulted a cop and tried to take his gun.  Got shot.  //

All the BS protesting would have happened anyway.  This has nothing to do with Brown.  Looters gonna loot.

----------


## JK/SEA

> Okay:
> 
> 1) Did you read the article?
> 
> 2) Do you know I'm black?
> 
> I bring up number to in reference to the whole "really know the true desperation of a group of people that have been 'marginalized' by the PTB."  Yeah blacks have reasons to be upset.  Race riots are a stupid way to deal with those reasons.  The first black orchestrated race riots started *after* the peak of the civil rights movement.  (The article I linked explains this).  It would be like being native Americans being upset over the slaughter of the buffalo, finally getting control of all wild buffalo herds, and then slaughter buffalo and only cutting out the eyes to make necklaces.


The riots in LA were a bad thing in the long run?...was anyone awakened to the crap that people were facing in regards to the justice system?...was anyone awakened by the coming Police State?...was anything accomplished other than a few fires and arrests?...

Frankly, at 63 years old, i'm way beyond disappointed on where we are in regards to justice and the Police State in this country. I'm just glad black people are showing everyone that there is still a long way to go in regards to Police, and the oppression that is still with ALL of us.

----------


## jmdrake

> The riots in LA were a bad thing in the long run?...was anyone awakened to the crap that people were facing in regards to the justice system?...was anyone awakened by the coming Police State?...was anything accomplished other than a few fires and arrests?...


Doesn't seem like it.  The prison-industrial complex is stronger than ever.




> Frankly, at 63 years old, i'm way beyond disappointed on where we are in regards to justice and the Police State in this country. I'm just glad black people are showing everyone that there is still a long way to go in regards to Police, and the oppression that is still with ALL of us.


Well I guess you *do* remember the Watts riots whereas I read about them.    That said, I prefer what black people where "showing everyone" when we were actually accomplishing something.











Sorry, but I can't see how burning down a blood bank even compares.

----------


## specsaregood

> Okay.  What's your point?  Seriously?  Mine is that the vast majority of the rioters were not representative of Ferguson proper.


I was asking for the basis of the claim that most of the people responsible for the violence and looting were from "out of town" or "non-local".  What we ended up getting was a clarification that when it is repeated that those people are  _"out of town"_ it means they dont happen to live in the 6square mile area of Ferguson, MO.  But around 74% (based on past statistics) of them are from the greater st. louis metropolitan area of which Ferguson is included.  So they are close enough to walk or take the bus to ferguson but they are still considered "out of town".

all clear now.

----------


## JK/SEA

> Bottom line:
> 
> Brown was a criminal who assaulted and stole as he pleased.  He assaulted a cop and tried to take his gun.  Got shot.  //
> 
> All the BS protesting would have happened anyway.  This has nothing to do with Brown.  Looters gonna loot.


shouldn't be a death sentence.

why didn't Wilson just report back he has a perp in that violent robbery over some cigars in his view. Has the approximate location of this mad man, then send in detectives to find him later. A big SCARY  BLACK KID in the 400 block in the south end area of Ferguson. Cops find his dwelling, wait him out, or nail him leaving his home. Seems this shoot him dead BS is the lazy way to get 'results'...so now we have all this fun and games and wasted tax money....idiocracy indeed.

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

Last night was the exact opposite of August.  They arrested 61 last night in Ferguson.  Only two were from out of town.

Press conference is going on now with parents, lawyers and Sharpton.  Every MSM station censored Sharpton.

One of the main reasons they are pissed is that the prosecutor said that out of 60 odd witnesses, only 4 were relevant...

There were active events all over the country.  More rioting is expected tonight.  City is promising LOTS of cops tonight.

-t

----------


## JK/SEA

> Sorry, but I can't see how burning down a blood bank even compares.


'collateral damage'

fighting injustice is not that sanitary as you know.

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

During the press conference CNN is letting Sharpton answer questions.

The whole town thinks the police let the town burn down.

OOh, and MB's step father was driving the arson last night - getting on a car and hyping the crowd with "Burn this place down" - chanted repeatedly.  It's apparently a YouTube that is going viral.

-t

----------


## jmdrake

> One of the main reasons they are pissed is that the prosecutor said that out of 60 odd witnesses, only 4 were relevant...


Ah.  That explains a lot.  There's an old saying that a prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich.  But that caveat to that is "only if he wants to."  Police and prosecutors work hand in glove most of the time and prosecutors are loath to burn their own assets.

----------


## muh_roads

>

----------


## specsaregood

> What is dumb is you simpletons always acting like it is one particular case.  When the Rodney King riots happened, it wasn't just about Rodney king.  these riots aren't just about Michael Brown.


You are correct; it appears they are more about the tyranny of chain auto parts stores, drugstores and convenience stores.

----------


## orenbus



----------


## erowe1

> And YES- I am biased; biased against people who assume they know all w/o the facts


Doesn't that include pretty much everybody who thinks they know that they grand jury made the wrong decision?

----------


## tangent4ronpaul

> Honestly, and no $#@!.
> 
> This $#@! didn't happen in a vacuum, I've posted numerous well sourced articles that prove that police harassment, brutality and shakedowns in the Ferguson area have been ongoing for *years*.
> *
> People have had $#@!ing enough, and I don't blame them.*
> 
> I just wish they'd trash more government buildings and cop cars instead of local businesses, but a riot does not discriminate.
> 
> But as you noted, the forces of the Empire make sure to stand guard over their citadels and fortresses.
> ...


Just the Fergusaon area?????

GET REAL!

-t

----------


## JK/SEA

> Wow.
> 
> So a lot happened while I was out drinking last night and asleep all day. Just finished catching up. Hopefully the violence will quiet down tonight so that more peaceful protests can continue.
> 
> I do consider burning down a police station to be a peaceful protest, so let's see some of that.



National Guard ramping up....

Sounds like a party for the cops tonight. 

Anyone hear how many body bags they have?...

----------


## orenbus

Edit: Nvm not sure what is going on, on the stream, unconfirmed report.

Someone just drove his car into some protestors in Ferguson live stream here where he is being followed by protestor to make sure he is charged with "attempted vehicular homicide". Currently being transported in police van followed by 5 police car escort.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/goza-live

----------


## moostraks

> It pisses me off that there are 1000 obvious cases that probably DESERVE riots, and then people gonna riot over the ones that don't.  It's not about color.  I wanted to see riots behind Miriam Carey.  It's the media that's driving this, and by buying the media line, hook and sinker, we are worse off than when we started.  There is now more division than before Ferguson, there is now more racial tension than before Ferguson.  The right takes the police abuse less seriously than before, the left thinks the right is a bunch of old white racists more than they did before, and it's because Sharpton and the media have driven people to riot over Brown but ignore Carey, and Gurley, and so on.
> 
> If you are gonna riot, riot over the innocent victims of police brutality.  Rioting for the likely guilty is counter-productive and it sets back the work most of us have been doing by years.
> 
> If anybody thinks that position makes me 'racist,' then the problem is within themselves.


Kick a hornet's nest and stand at the source you will experience more stinging. Consider the personality of folks involved and location of the rioting. What type of personality will riot and who will they identify with as well as where did the incident occur all play into which of these folks get traction. Media has reported numerous stories. Why aren't the working, single mothers standing outside the White House rioting? Why aren't the homeless folks rioting for Kelly Thomas? 

If you want to be annoyed over the 1000 obvious cases that probably deserve rioting then you would have to start by blaming yourself, and me, and anyone else here who sees a problem but doesn't riot. It isn't likely going to be effective to expect others who, like I imagine you yourself may feel, as yet do not find rioting an effective response for the atrocities to jump up and head over to Washington and burn something to grab attention for Miriam Carey. Those cases are slowly establishing a tipping point where juries become skeptical and each family has someone who has suffered abuse at the hands of police. Looking at responses in various areas online it seems we shall have a long ways to go yet.

----------


## orenbus



----------


## Antischism

> No charges brought by prosecution...because the victim is black? Is that what you're saying?


No, I'm saying that there's a long history of police brutality, injustice, slavery, Jim Crow laws, latent racism, failed drug laws, economic policy and social conditioning that has disadvantaged minorities, incarcerated them at higher rates and created a narrative in the collective unconscious of the public that the life of black people or minorities, is worth less. That while poor people of all backgrounds have been subjected to similar systemic abuse, those of color have had it that much worse and as a result, are quicker to understand police are not there to "protect and serve."

----------


## DFF

> No, I'm saying that there's a long history of police brutality, injustice, slavery, Jim Crow laws, latent racism, failed drug laws, economic policy and social conditioning that has disadvantaged minorities, incarcerated them at higher rates and created a narrative in the collective unconscious of the public that the life of black people or minorities, is worth less. That while poor people of all backgrounds have been subjected to similar systemic abuse, those of color have had it that much worse and as a result, are quicker to understand police are not there to "protect and serve."


...the IDF recently slaughtered 3,000 Palestinians in Gaza. But your not criticizing that now are you Mr. Agitator? No, of course not...

----------


## mac_hine

"From its inception, the shooting of Michael Brown was not investigated as a potential criminal homicide, and the inquiry was an exercise in validating the killers story, rather than testing it against the available evidence. If Wilson had been a member of the productive class, rather than a state employee licensed to dispense aggressive violence, he would have been presumed legally innocent, but required to justify his actions. Because of his occupation, however, Wilson was considered both legally innocent and presumptively correct." ~Will Grigg
http://photographyisnotacrime.com/20...on-favoritism/

----------


## orenbus

> ...the IDF recently slaughtered 3,000 Palestinians in Gaza. But your not criticizing that now are you Mr. Agitator? No, of course not...

----------


## Ender

> ...the IDF recently slaughtered 3,000 Palestinians in Gaza. But your not criticizing that now are you Mr. Agitator? No, of course not...


Read much?

Antischism is one of the least hypocrites on the forum.

----------


## FloralScent

Don't get me wrong, I think the cop should've been indicted.  The   evidence points to him executing the guy out of anger, and I'm no fan of   cops even when they're on their best behavior.   I just wish Haji would've had his concealed carry permit and smoked Michael Brown inside his store;no controversy, no muss, no fuss.  The moment that fat $#@! laid hands on the little guy it was robbery.  I won't morn his passing.

----------


## staerker

Theory:

Michael Brown was "jay-walking." (Not immoral by the way. In a residential neighborhood? lol. Nazis.)

Darren Wilson *struck* Brown with his car. (*Skin* and blood on the car)

[...] (who knows what happened)

Brown calls Wilson a "pussy." Wilson executes Brown.

----------


## invisible

> Edit: Nvm not sure what is going on, on the stream, unconfirmed report.
> 
> Someone just drove his car into some protestors in Ferguson live stream here where he is being followed by protestor to make sure he is charged with "attempted vehicular homicide". Currently being transported in police van followed by 5 police car escort.
> 
> http://www.ustream.tv/channel/goza-live


This stream is from NYC.  It's live and working, but nothing much going on there yet.

----------


## invisible

> Private property huh?
> right now on live stream, the Ferguson police are going to arrest a bunch of people for being on the balcony of a restaurant... ...the owner, Flo, is present, and says they are allowed to be at her restaurant.
> 
> http://rt.com/on-air/us-ferguson-rally-brown/
> 
> Ferguson police are claiming it is city property, even though it is clearly private property.


This stream is not working.  Returns an error saying it doesn't exist or has been deleted.

----------


## orenbus

//

----------


## otherone

> i agree. The comments that dismiss race as an issue in the Brown case are not being honest with themselves, or anyone reading the posts in here. 
> 
> If a person thinks the Brown case is devoid of any racism, i want to see some reasons why they think this.
> 
> In the mean time, i firmly believe race is a factor, so sue me.


ok.
Let's break this down.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by  the "Brown case"'.  I'm concerned about the "Wilson case".
Example: did Wilson execute Brown because he was black?  Who the $#@! knows...THERE IS NO TRIAL.
Why is there no trial?  Because Brown is black?  Or because cops are above the law?

----------


## orenbus

Last Night - Tim Pool report

----------


## JK/SEA

> Theory:
> 
> Michael Brown was "jay-walking." (Not immoral by the way. In a residential neighborhood? lol. Nazis.)
> 
> Darren Wilson *struck* Brown with his car. (*Skin* and blood on the car)
> 
> [...] (who knows what happened)
> 
> Brown calls Wilson a "pussy." Wilson executes Brown.


he did it to himself... thats what i was told.

----------


## JK/SEA

> ok.
> Let's break this down.
> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by  the "Brown case"'.  I'm concerned about the "Wilson case".
> Example: did Wilson execute Brown because he was black?  Who the $#@! knows...THERE IS NO TRIAL.
> Why is there no trial?  Because Brown is black?  Or because cops are above the law?


Actually, its the Brown case. Pretty sure thats what the Federal Investigation will call it , and the following lawsuit, and hopefully those questions will get some light.

----------


## orenbus

List of (known) Streams:

If there are any streams that should be added to this list let me know, will keep a running compilation.
Edit: Some of these are currently offline, there are a few like Tim Pool and Vice News that usually doesn't go online until things start to "jump off" as the kids would say.

CNN:
http://www.livenewschat.eu/breaking/

MSNBC:
http://www.livenewschat.eu/politics/

KSTK/NBC News
TBD

Fox 2 News - St. Louis
http://fox2now.com/on-air/live-streaming-2/

Vice News (Danny Gold)
TBD

BassemMasri
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/bassemmasri

Tim Pool (Fusion.Net)
TBD

STLDagger
http://new.livestream.com/accounts/9...events/3569957

heatherdemian
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/heatherdemian

KMOX Radio
http://player.radio.com/listen/stati...dio-1120-kmox/

Global Revolution
http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution

Anon Copwatch in Ferguson
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/anon-copwatch

occupythemob
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/occupythemob

I am Mike Brown
http://new.livestream.com/ASN/events/3271930

St. Louis County Police Scanner
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/st-lou...police-scanner


######## Other Locations

NYC - JamesFromTheInternet
http://new.livestream.com/jamesfromtheinternet

Portland - Occucakes
ustream.tv/channel/occucakes

Portland - JesseHadden
http://www.ustream.tv/jessehadden

durham 2 ferguson
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/amirislive

----------


## orenbus



----------


## GunnyFreedom

//

----------


## Antischism

> That cops have the unquestioned POWER to use lethal force no matter what their motivation...fear, racism, hubris, insecurity, bad marriage, jock itch, hangover...THAT is the problem.  It's not racism; it's sanctioned immunity.


It's both. You don't need to dismiss the racial aspects of it to make the point that these injustices affect people of all color. You can simply use this as an opportunity to educate people about the grand scale of it if it really bothers you that much to talk about the racism that very much still exists, systemic or otherwise.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> And with good reason to not feel safe.  It's NOT safe.  A gang of psychopaths in blue, know if they want to kill a man they will get away with it. Especially if he's black.  The police are not being held to account, in ANY case.  Not from the most guilty to the most innocent.  The few exceptions that prove the rule, are either off-duty, or they amount to weeks where you and I would get years.
> *
> If the 1000% innocent get trampled to death without so much as a blinking eye, then what hope is there for me, who is only human, and Lord knows which of their crazy rules I broke today?*
> 
> All around America, these people are killing without consequence, and by and large the traditional electorate will defend it, because the only examples they are allowed to see are people like Michael Brown.  Forcing the ambiguous ones to the top as a wedge to wedge people apart and keep us divided.
> 
> *Miriam Cary was executed by the American Police State.  The Police State has totally encroached most of the United States.  The Police State has adopted a wartime footing, and applies a Rules Of Engagement that belongs in a combat zone. * 
> 
> *The State has been able to kill black men without consequence for a very long time.  What is new, is the ability to kill pretty much anybody without consequence.  The Police State is applying those lessons, and you can bet the first cold blooded white killing that explodes across the news cycle will be a thug of some kind.  Another stage of division.*
> ...


I cannot rep this *enough*.

----------


## CPUd

Reported carjacking of media personnel on W Flourissant / Canefield near Brown memorial.

----------


## otherone

> Michael Brown should not have died.  He is not blameless, he put himself into the position in the first place, and then he chose not to lay low.  However in America we have something called due process.  Was it life or death? We have no way of knowing.  If it was legitimate self defence, then Wilson should be found Not Guilty by a jury of his peers.  There was clearly enough questions in the contradicting evidence to bring an examination of the facts.  Maybe it was a cold blooded execution.  I don't know, because we have not been given the occasion to examine the _evidence_.  Only a bunch of contradicting rumors and stories and videos which all seem to say something different.


Well said.  It's ironic that in a country guided by the "rule of law", neither Brown nor Wilson were tried before a jury.

----------


## otherone

> It's both. You don't need to dismiss the racial aspects of it to make the point that these injustices affect people of all color. You can simply use this as an opportunity to educate people about the grand scale of it_ if it really bothers you_ that much to talk about the racism that very much still exists, systemic or otherwise.


It doesn't bother me. I just won't let it distract me. Was Miriam Carey executed because she was black?  Or a woman?

----------


## GunnyFreedom

Still haven't found the right video, but while searching I found another one.


Wow.

----------


## Antischism

> It doesn't bother me. I just won't let it distract me.


Fair enough, but I don't think minorities who've had to deal with this for decades would call it a mere distraction. I'd say they more intimately know the full extent of our broken justice system.

----------


## invisible

> Reported carjacking of media personnel on W Flourissant / Canefield near Brown memorial.


Where was this reported?  Have you found an active stream?

----------


## CPUd

About 30 individuals on Chambers / W Flourissant.  Officers dispatched to explain county ordinance and request to leave.

----------


## CPUd

> Where was this reported?  Have you found an active stream?


It is the police scanner:
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/st-lou...police-scanner

----------


## CPUd

4 shots fired near Brown Memorial on Canefield.


Media filming is causing the issue with the people on W Flourissant.

Only police cars to be used to block traffic, not the Guard buses.

----------


## invisible

> It is the police scanner:
> http://www.ustream.tv/channel/st-lou...police-scanner


Thanks.  I haven't found any video streams yet, at least not that I'm able to view.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

//

----------


## brushfire

> Always funny to me that libertarians are suspicious of everything the government says or does....except when it comes to the murder of a black man, "oh he probably deserved it"


There are some interesting changes in the story, but I have to imagine there were Brown's peers in that jury - at least 1/2 of them.   To me, this really is not as much of a black issue as people are making it out to be.  Then again, maybe it is - where was all the support for Erik Scott?  How many costco's got burned down as a result of all the police officers being acquitted? At least Brown got a grand jury - Erik didnt fkn sh!t, other than a BS mock court, coroner's inquest, which was completely staged as a formality, with no intentions of serving any kind of justice.



Probably because there was no race to embrace.  The media could not play the races against each other.  Also, the metro police in vegas were involved in a brazen/blatant cover-up, and NOBODY held their a$$es accountable.

Most, if not all, true libertarians recognize the prejudice and inequality in the legal system, but the same can be said for "other" government programs.  The whole thing is pretty disgusting to me because I know its just another means to perpetuate segregation.  Its one thing to be proud of our individuality, its another thing to self segregate.

My hope at this point is that we can now see the full line of evidence, but that will probably never happen.  Its hard to tell as to whether justice was served in any capacity, but one thing I can say is this:  If the Ferguson police run their beat anything like they do the riot control, they probably smoked Brown's a$$ in cold blood.  There's no way anyone here really knows for sure.

----------


## osan

> I'm a middle aged white man living in northern New England.
> 
> *And I do not feel safe around police officers, period.*
> 
> Any rational person, male or female, regardless of color, who is not addled by Stockholm Syndrome, ought to feel the same way.
> 
> And that *is* the problem.


Agreed.  Black folk have no monopoly on valid fear of police; everyone does.  Cops on the average are raving, dangerous lunatics who I will seriously posit need to locked into a rubber room and heavily medicated in lieu of the less politically-correct solution of being humanely euthanized.




> That cops have the unquestioned POWER to use lethal force no matter what their motivation...fear, racism, hubris, insecurity, bad marriage, jock itch, hangover...THAT is the problem.  It's not racism; _it's sanctioned immunity_.


This is the real root of the trouble.  To cry about "racist" cops is by implication to diminish the validity and significance of all the other reasons they violate the rights of others, up to and including cold-blooded murder.  That should not stand.  We need to realize and maintain in the forefront of our awareness that the reasons cops do what they do  are mainly irrelevant.  All that counts is that they do it and need to be held accountable by any means necessary, up to and including privately apprehending them and subjecting them to proper moral justice.  There is nothing magical or otherwise special about a public court.  In fact, as most of us see, there is much against recommending them as they are rife with corruption.  I therefore see absolutely no problem with private parties apprehending these wicked people, trying them, sentencing them, and carrying out those sentences.  But it should be borne in mind that such private courts should be held to the higher standard to which public courts are bound, in theory.  Tyranny and evil can issue from any corner of humanity.  Just as there is nothing magical about public courts, so it maybe said for those private.  Good behavior is good behavior and rotten is rotten, no matter who the actors might be, their titles, or their fancy hats.

----------


## osan

> Always funny to me that libertarians are suspicious of everything the government says or does....except when it comes to the murder of a black man, "oh he probably deserved it"


Care to provide some hard examples?  I have never once seen or heard anybody of a libertarian bent indicate such a personal position as this in even the most oblique language.

----------


## otherone

> Fair enough, but I don't think minorities who've had to deal with this for decades would call it a mere distraction. I'd say they more intimately know the full extent of our broken justice system.


Until _everyone_ wakes up and realizes the system is broken for _everyone_ , nothing will change.  Sorry that I didn't mention the "R" word.

----------


## donnay

The police presence is becoming more intimidating, along with the National Guard.  Watch it LIVE Now!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETcoMSOY2xU

----------


## Anti Federalist

> There are some interesting changes in the story, but I have to imagine there were Brown's peers in that jury - at least 1/2 of them.   To me, this really is not as much of a black issue as people are making it out to be.  Then again, maybe it is - where was all the support for Erik Scott?  How many costco's got burned down as a result of all the police officers being acquitted? At least Brown got a grand jury - Erik didnt fkn sh!t, other than a BS mock court, coroner's inquest, which was completely staged as a formality, with no intentions of serving any kind of justice


Maybe if white folks would get out the damn street and raise some hell, maybe he would have gotten at least a grand jury formality.

----------


## CPUd

National Guard is posted up around the Walgreen's

----------


## Anti Federalist



----------


## Antischism

> Until _everyone_ wakes up and realizes the system is broken for _everyone_ , nothing will change.  Sorry that I didn't mention the "R" word.


Well, it's a good thing black people are fighting back, then. Even if some people are trying to downplay the protests by siding with the police and making it all about the looting and property.

----------


## osan

> Miriam Cary was executed by the American Police State.  The Police State has totally encroached most of the United States.  The Police State has adopted a wartime footing, and applies a Rules Of Engagement that belongs in a combat zone. [/video]


Sheeeeeee-it... the troops are way more tightly limited by their RoEs than are coppies.  Just think about how wildly and dangerously insane that is.  A cop can mow you down with impunity where a soldier doing far less would be put to hard labor at Leavenworth for decades.

----------


## brushfire

> Maybe if white folks would get out the damn street and raise some hell, maybe he would have gotten at least a grand jury formality.


I have to agree.  I'm convinced, more and more, every day, that what happened at the Bundy ranch is how you deal with these fktards.  Offer some kind of response to force, and make it available for all to see.  The real tragedy at Ferguson is not what happened to Brown, its all the damage that was caused in his name.  The absolute offense on the innocent, as justified by the so called murder of an innocent man.  No peaceful demonstration, no violence directed at the police and the government, but a direct attack on the contributors of the community - meanwhile everyone gets to see how fked up the black people are in Ferguson - Now THAT is a tragedy.

----------


## otherone

> Well, it's a good thing black people are fighting back, then. Even if some people are trying to downplay the protests by siding with the police and making it all about the looting and property.


It's a good thing that anyone is fighting back.  The private property people forget that the tea at the bottom of the Boston Harbor is the property of the East India Tea Company.

----------


## enhanced_deficit

*Missouri Lt. Gov.: Nixon Bowed to Pressure from Obama and Holder to Not Send National Guard*

----------


## Antischism

> I have to agree.  I'm convinced, more and more, every day, that what happened at the Bundy ranch is how you deal with these fktards.  Offer some kind of response to force, and make it available for all to see.  The real tragedy at Ferguson is not what happened to Brown, its all the damage that was caused in his name.  The absolute offense on the innocent, as justified by the so called murder of an innocent man.  No peaceful demonstration, no violence directed at the police and the government, but a direct attack on the contributors of the community - meanwhile everyone gets to see how fked up the black people are in Ferguson - Now THAT is a tragedy.




Spare me the MLK "communist" deflections, potential future posters. I think this bit holds true even today (for white poor people, too).

As for the Bundy Ranch stuff, when are we going to train and arm the black community? The situations are quite different. Furthermore, I'd argue cops are a hell of a lot more likely to shoot an armed black man if they can't even refrain from shooting a 12-year-old black boy with a toy gun in a school setting.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> *I have to agree.  
> 
> I'm convinced, more and more, every day, that what happened at the Bundy ranch is how you deal with these fktards.  
> 
> Offer some kind of response to force, and make it available for all to see.*


+ rep x ∞

----------


## CPUd

> + rep x ∞


It wouldn't work in this case, because the tactic depends on restraint by both sides.

----------


## specsaregood

> As for the Bundy Ranch stuff, when are we going to train and arm the black community?


Do you not think them capable of training and arming themselves?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Do you not think them capable of training and arming themselves?


Honestly...that was a pretty racist remark to make, that blacks are somehow not capable of organizing and arming like white folks can.

----------


## puppetmaster

> Maybe if white folks would get out the damn street and raise some hell, maybe he would have gotten at least a grand jury formality.


Yeah but there are many other cop shoots mundane black or white that get my blood hot.  Not so much this one. The lady shot up in DC with her child in car for instance

----------


## Anti Federalist

> It wouldn't work in this case, because the tactic depends on restraint by both sides.


Then let the $#@!ing cops open fire and we'll finally get this show on the road.

----------


## specsaregood

> Honestly...that was a pretty racist remark to make, that blacks are somehow not capable of organizing and arming like white folks can.


That's what I thought  as well.

----------


## Antischism

> Do you not think them capable of training and arming themselves?


The last time black men tried to open carry, St. Reagan passed gun control laws. I'd say they could very much use the education on the right to bear arms and history, just like any other person ignorant to gun rights should. What's the point of educating people on liberty if you're then going to argue they should figure it out themselves?

----------


## CPUd

> Then let the $#@!ing cops open fire and we'll finally get this show on the road.


You would like to see that happen?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Yeah but there are many other cop shoots mundane black or white that get my blood hot.  Not so much this one.


No, granted, this one was not a baby getting his face blown off by a SWAT grenade in a wrong house raid, or a little girl getting shot in the face by the same thing.

----------


## Antischism

> Honestly...that was a pretty racist remark to make, that blacks are somehow not capable of organizing and arming like white folks can.


I don't think you're reading my statement correctly, unless you're against educating people of their rights.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> You would like to see that happen?


Better than the daily Chinese water torture of an outrage here, a blown up kid there, a dead family dog over there.

That how you want to live the rest of your life?

Worried that the banging on the door at 0300 is not crooks but cops?

Under total surveillance everywhere you go?

Besides, they are doing that already.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> The last time black men tried to open carry, St. Reagan passed gun control laws. I'd say they could very much use the education on the right to bear arms and history, just like any other person ignorant to gun rights should. What's the point of educating people on liberty if you're then going to argue they should figure it out themselves?


Yes, I'm all about education. But a lot of this can be figured out on your own.

I have spent my entire adult life, if doing nothing else "political" than fighting for second amendment rights for ALL people.

Tell me, how much did you contribute to Shaneen Allen's defense fund?

----------


## CPUd

> Better than the daily Chinese water torture of an outrage here, a blown up kid there, a dead family dog over there.
> 
> That how you want to live the rest of your life?
> 
> Worried that the banging on the door at 0300 is not crooks but cops?
> 
> Under total surveillance everywhere you go?


I'm just not that outraged, and this is coming from a person with first-hand experience of some of the things you mentioned.

----------


## Antischism

> Yes, I'm all about education. But a lot of this can be figured out on your own.
> 
> I have spent my entire adult life, if doing nothing else "political" than fighting for second amendment rights for ALL people.
> 
> Tell me, how much did you contribute to Shaneen Allen's defense fund?


Then you have nothing against educating both black and white communities about 2A. That doesn't contradict what I was saying at all. I was responding to a poster drawing parallels between Ferguson and Bundy Ranch, which were not alike at all. One was a group of wealthy people well-versed in gun rights and ready to defend their property, while another involved a less well-off community of people with pent up frustration from years of injustice finally reaching a breaking point. Is it not then beneficial to use this opportunity to educate people in that community and other similar areas about the racist history of gun control laws?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I'm just not that outraged, and this is coming from a person with first-hand experience of some of the things you mentioned.


Well, every person's level of "what will I take" is different.

I think I have seen enough of what's to come, that I am of the mindset that *every able bodied person* should be in the streets and confronting these tyrants by any and all means at our disposal.

Of course, I'm sitting in a comfy home far removed from everything right now, so brand me a hypocrite.

Your mileage may vary.

----------


## Occam's Banana

> They were actually trying to protect the businesses in the area.





> gotta keep that protection money flowing


Someone remind me: how are cops funded?

EDIT: Forget it. Drake's rejoinder was much better than mine ...




> That's right.  Because without violence to  justify the taxes paid to the boys in blue...oh wait...you're talking  about the bloods and crips....nevermind.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> The last time black men tried to open carry, St. Reagan passed gun control laws. I'd say they could very much use the education on the right to bear arms and history, just like any other person ignorant to gun rights should. What's the point of educating people on liberty if you're then going to argue they should figure it out themselves?


Well, after Rand gets elected encourage a whole bunch of open carry by black men, and he won't.  In fact, he will probably ask the States not to do so either.  Normalize it and then later it will be a lot harder ro go back.

----------


## brushfire

> You would like to see that happen?


I dont think anyone wants to see that happen.  Really though, what does one do?  Watch the further militarization?  I'm not saying go out on the offensive, not at all, but at what point do you take a stand?  When its too late?

To be clear, nobody got seriously hurt at the Bundy ranch.  There was some roughing up of the women by the feds, but after that happened, it was a standoff.  Then the feds cowered away to fight another day, via the pen.  In the Bundy story, it was extremely clear who the bad guys were.  Even though the militia showed up with their guns, people were on their side - and the cameras were there to keep everyone honest.

The situation in Ferguson is a missed opportunity in this regard.  If you are on the wrong side of the public opinion, you're done.  Nobody wants riots, and nobody thinks what those idiots in Ferguson are doing is right.  However, I watched Bassem's stream, and the sh!t did not go down until the gas was flying.  Bait cars were planted with the hopes they could entice the violent idiots into vindicating the police, and those idiots took the bait.  The public was on their side and they blew it, big time.  Darren Wilson is not the only one vindicated now, its the militarized police force - "this is why we need MRAPs people".  These people are professionals, and the idiots doing all the looting are as easy to play as a fisher price guitar.


If you're going to protest, do it peaceably.  If you're going to war, don't attack your allies, attack the enemy.  Otherwise, stay the fk home.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Then you have nothing against educating both black and white communities about 2A. That doesn't contradict what I was saying at all. I was responding to a poster drawing parallels between Ferguson and Bundy Ranch, which were not alike at all. One was a group of wealthy people well-versed in gun rights and ready to defend their property, while another involved a less well-off community of people with pent up frustration from years of injustice finally reaching a breaking point. Is it not then beneficial to use this opportunity to educate people in that community and other similar areas about the racist history of gun control laws?


There is the example of the lady who bought a pistol for her own protection and then accidentally shot herself in the head.  People who don't know what to do with a gun ought not to be carrying them.  Some kind of gun handling education should probably go with them.  An advocacy group could do this.  LOL set up a 501(c)3 to legally arm the black community and use it to train everyone in gun safety handling and responsibility...

Or better, make it a PAC and teach liberty at the same time.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Then you have nothing against educating both black and white communities about 2A. That doesn't contradict what I was saying at all. I was responding to a poster drawing parallels between Ferguson and Bundy Ranch, which were not alike at all. One was a group of wealthy people well-versed in gun rights and ready to defend their property, while another involved a less well-off community of people with pent up frustration from years of injustice finally reaching a breaking point. Is it not then beneficial to use this opportunity to educate people in that community and other similar areas about the racist history of gun control laws?


Sure, but you are drawing conclusions based on wrongheaded stereotypes that are just as bad as people dismissing the Ferguson situation as "just a bunch of black ass ghetto trash rioting and burning down their own $#@! as usual".

Wealthy?

I know a couple of folks that went to Bundy or were getting ready to, and let me tell you, they had to beg for gas money.

What, you don't think ranchers and farmers have been dealing with heavy handed government enforcement and takings and raids and arrests?

I am trying to get some interest generated in protesting the latest government action, by decree only, closing down cod fishing in New England and wiping out thousands of people economically. 

No, black folks are not the only ones being oppressed in AmeriKa these days.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> Well, every person's level of "what will I take" is different.
> 
> I think I have seen enough of what's to come, that I am of the mindset that *every able bodied person* should be in the streets and confronting these tyrants by any and all means at our disposal.
> 
> Of course, I'm sitting in a comfy home far removed from everything right now, so brand me a hypocrite.
> 
> Your mileage may vary.


This belongs here:

----------


## orenbus

List of (known) Streams:

If there are any streams that should be added to this list let me know, will keep a running compilation.
Edit: Some of these are currently offline, there are a few like Tim Pool and Vice News that usually doesn't go online until things start to "jump off" as the kids would say.

CNN:
http://www.livenewschat.eu/breaking/

MSNBC:
http://www.livenewschat.eu/politics/

KSTK/NBC News
TBD

Fox 2 News - St. Louis
http://fox2now.com/on-air/live-streaming-2/

Vice News (Danny Gold)
TBD

BassemMasri
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/bassemmasri

Tim Pool (Fusion.Net)
TBD

InfoWars (Alex Jones Channel)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETcoMSOY2xU

STLDagger
http://new.livestream.com/accounts/9...events/3569957

heatherdemian
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/heatherdemian

KMOX Radio
http://player.radio.com/listen/stati...dio-1120-kmox/

Global Revolution
http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution

Anon Copwatch in Ferguson
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/anon-copwatch

occupythemob
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/occupythemob

I am Mike Brown
http://new.livestream.com/ASN/events/3271930

St. Louis County Police Scanner
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/st-lou...police-scanner


######## Other Locations

NYC - JamesFromTheInternet
http://new.livestream.com/jamesfromtheinternet

Portland - Occucakes
ustream.tv/channel/occucakes

Portland - JesseHadden
http://www.ustream.tv/jessehadden

durham 2 ferguson
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/amirislive

----------


## Antischism

> Sure, but you are drawing conclusions based on wrongheaded stereotypes that are just as bad as people dismissing the Ferguson situation as "just a bunch of black ass ghetto trash rioting and burning down their own $#@! as usual".
> 
> Wealthy?
> 
> I know a couple of folks that went to Bundy or were getting ready to, and let me tell you, they had to beg for gas money.
> 
> What, you don't think ranchers and farmers have been dealing with heavy handed government enforcement and takings and raids and arrests?
> 
> I am trying to get some interest generated in protesting the latest government action, by decree only, closing down cod fishing in New England and wiping out thousands of people economically. 
> ...


I wasn't speaking about people from out of state who went to join in on the Bundy Ranch incident. And I'm not sure how you're drawing the conclusion that it's a stereotype to imply a community that's at the lower end of the socioeconomic ladder with a long history of systemic abuse, racism, reduction to subhuman status and taught to self-hate, aren't exactly the first to sit around and contemplating the history of gun laws. If you look at history, the right to bear arms has traditionally been a white privilege. You can't expect people who have been treated like trash and told they weren't civilized enough to own guns, to have a sudden period of enlightenment. That's reality, not a stereotype. I think it's insulting to dismiss the history of gun rights as a white privilege as if it has no bearing on present reality.

And no, I've never argued that only blacks are being oppressed. However, I do argue that they've not only had to endure it for a much longer period of time and to larger extents, but continue to get treated a good deal worse both socially and systematically.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I wasn't speaking about people from out of state who went to join in on the Bundy Ranch incident. And I'm not sure how you're drawing the conclusion that it's a stereotype to imply a community that's at the lower end of the socioeconomic ladder with a long history of systemic abuse, racism, reduction to subhuman status and taught to self-hate, aren't exactly the first to sit around and contemplating the history of gun laws. If you look at history, the right to bear arms has traditionally been a white privilege. *You can't expect people who have been treated like trash and told they weren't civilized enough to own guns, to have a sudden period of enlightenment. That's reality, not a stereotype. I think it's insulting to dismiss the history of gun rights as a white privilege as if it has no bearing on present reality.*
> 
> And no, I've never argued that only blacks are being oppressed. However, I do argue that they've not only had to endure it for a much longer period of time and to larger extents, but continue to get treated a good deal worse both socially and systematically.


So, you're basically invoking the "sympathetic" anti-abolitionist argument circa 1850:

"Blacks are not ready for and cannot handle freedom".

Well, they managed just fine, fifty years ago:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deacons...se_and_Justice

----------


## Antischism

> So, you're basically invoking the "sympathetic" anti-abolitionist argument circa 1850:
> 
> "Blacks are not ready for and cannot handle freedom".


Uhh, what?

No, my argument is that it's not "stereotyping" to suggest there are valid reasons why the black community isn't fighting for 2A rights or educated on the manner like you find across white populations. You can try to spin it however you want, but that would be to ignore reality. For example, a black man open carrying or a Muslim wearing a headscarf doing the same, will elicit harsher responses from people and the police force, while white people doing the same are seen as less of a threat. It has been socially ingrained that these two images are to be feared. You don't think this also plays a role in why black people may be more hesitant to want to own firearms or approach 2A rights more openly like whites do? This is of course, completely disregarding the racist history of gun laws/ownership in this country. It's not difficult to understand why white people would have a richer history in supporting 2A that extends to present time. Why are you having trouble grasping this?

----------


## specsaregood

> Uhh, what?
> 
> No, my argument is that it's not "stereotyping" to suggest there are valid reasons why the black community isn't fighting for 2A rights or educated on the manner like you find across white populations. You can try to spin it however you want, but that would be to ignore reality. For example, a black man open carrying or a Muslim wearing a headscarf doing the same, will elicit harsher responses from people and the police force, while white people doing the same are seen as less of a threat. It has been socially ingrained that these two images are to be feared. You don't think this also plays a role in why black people may be more hesitant to want to own firearms or approach 2A rights more openly like whites do? This is of course, completely disregarding the racist history of gun laws/ownership in this country. It's not difficult to understand why white people would have a richer history in supporting 2A that extends to present time. Why are you having trouble grasping this?


I seem to recall the only people freaking out about the black guys open carrying at tea party events were the liberal media.  MSNBC in particular going as far as to crop out a guys body to hide he was even black.    People see black cops carrying guns all the time, I think your racism is blinding you to the fact that the public wouldn't have any bigger hissyfit about it than they do with white people open carrying.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Uhh, what?
> 
> No, my argument is that it's not "stereotyping" to suggest there are valid reasons why the black community isn't fighting for 2A rights or educated on the manner like you find across white populations. You can try to spin it however you want, but that would be to ignore reality. For example, a black man open carrying or a Muslim wearing a headscarf doing the same, will elicit harsher responses from people and the police force, while white people doing the same are seen as less of a threat. It has been socially ingrained that these two images are to be feared. You don't think this also plays a role in why black people may be more hesitant to want to own firearms or approach 2A rights more openly like whites do? This is of course, completely disregarding the racist history of gun laws/ownership in this country. It's not difficult to understand why white people would have a richer history in supporting 2A that extends to present time. Why are you having trouble grasping this?


I have no trouble grasping that.

What you seem to have a problem with is the idea that it can, and should be overcome, and also is not as widespread as you might think.

I know more than few black men my age that are as big, if not bigger, "gun nuts" than I am.

What I am having a problem with here is why, as it appears to me, are you trying to enhance that divide instead of bridging it.

*We are all in the cross-hairs of the system*

----------


## CPUd

reports of people jumping on police car at Ferguson City Hall.  Molotov cocktails, trying to destroy the building and overturn cars.  All units respond.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I seem to recall the only people freaking out about the black guys open carrying at tea party events were the liberal media.  MSNBC in particular going as far as to crop out a guys body to hide he was even black.    People see black cops carrying guns all the time, I think your racism is blinding you to the fact that the public wouldn't have any bigger hissyfit about it than they do with white people open carrying.


Valid points

----------


## alucard13mm

I got a question. If a store has insurance, what exactly does the insurance pay for in the event of a riot or looter situation? Cost to Repair/Rebuild? Loss of all merchandise? Loss of equipment? Loss of employee wages? Loss of profit?

----------


## CPUd

> I got a question. If a store has insurance, what exactly does the insurance pay for in the event of a riot or looter situation? Cost to Repair/Rebuild? Loss of all merchandise? Loss of equipment? Loss of employee wages? Loss of profit?


Depends on the policy.  Sometimes, if it is real bad, they will cut the owner a check and have them rebuild elsewhere.  Sometimes, the policy doesn't even cover it.

----------


## invisible

One thing being overlooked in both sides of this little OT discussion, is that black people overwhelmingly vote for democrats who want to undermine the 2A.  

So, it seems awful quiet, as far as reports of anything going on in Ferguson.  Not much posted on topic here in quite some time.

----------


## invisible

> reports of people jumping on police car at Ferguson City Hall.  Molotov cocktails, trying to destroy the building and overturn cars.  All units respond.


Thanks for the update!

----------


## specsaregood

> I got a question. If a store has insurance, what exactly does the insurance pay for in the event of a riot or looter situation? Cost to Repair/Rebuild? Loss of all merchandise? Loss of equipment? Loss of employee wages? Loss of profit?


I was thinking about this earlier today.   I wonder how many of those non-chain stores in the area lost their insurance policy in the months between the riots?     I  mean what insurer in their right might would insure a business in the area prior to the grand jury decision?

----------


## CPUd

Windows broken out at City Hall

MO state SWAT 10-23 (they arrived)

Active crime scene, additional units requested behind the city hall

----------


## Antischism

> I seem to recall the only people freaking out about the black guys open carrying at tea party events were the liberal media.  MSNBC in particular going as far as to crop out a guys body to hide he was even black.    People see black cops carrying guns all the time, I think your racism is blinding you to the fact that the public wouldn't have any bigger hissyfit about it than they do with white people open carrying.


So you're using an isolated incident, at a Tea Party event no less, as irrefutable proof that there's no social bias that endangers gun carrying minorities more than whites? Just like that, isolated events do away entirely with history and reality. Alright then.




> I have no trouble grasping that.
> 
> What you seem to have a problem with is the idea that it can, and should be overcome, and also is not as widespread as you might think.
> 
> I know more than few black men my age that are as big, if not bigger, "gun nuts" than I am.
> 
> What I am having a problem with here is why, as it appears to me, are you trying to enhance that divide instead of bridging it.
> 
> *We are all in the cross-hairs of the system*


Can you point out where I stated it can't or shouldn't be overcome? If I recall correctly, I was pushing the need for education. The historical and social impacts on the black community were used to back up my point on why it's necessary to educate, and why we can't simply expect people to magically wake up after decades of being told they weren't civilized enough to own guns. You can call accepting reality divisive if you want and hide behind this idea that not speaking about racism will lessen racism which is patently false, but I think it's necessary to address those issues if you want to bridge the metaphorical gap.

And again, these anecdotes don't refute our past and present reality.

----------


## CPUd

Large group leaving city hall -  half are walking toward the police station.  Telling units to stay posted up around the police station.

----------


## Antischism

> One thing being overlooked in both sides of this little OT discussion, is that black people overwhelmingly vote for democrats who want to undermine the 2A.  
> 
> So, it seems awful quiet, as far as reports of anything going on in Ferguson.  Not much posted on topic here in quite some time.


A good percentage of blacks fall at the lower end of the socioeconomic ladder, so I don't think they tend to worry about where the parties stand on gun laws (everyone would do well not to vote for either party regardless), rather their survival. One party does a better job of promising a safety net while the other party's rhetoric sounds more beneficial to the wealthy. Of course, most of it is all talk and nothing substantial ever happens, and like I've been saying, it's another reason why it's important to push for education on all matters of liberty.

----------


## CPUd

large group 100+ at the Whistle Stop.  smoke coming from the area around the Whistle Stop.  Whistle Stop is locked and secured.

All available units to the Whistle Stop.

----------


## DFF

> Of course, most of it is all talk and nothing substantial ever happens, and like I've been saying, *it's another reason why it's important to push for education on all matters of liberty*.


...provided by the state, naturally. More liberal big-government bull$#@!.

----------


## specsaregood

> So you're using an isolated incident, at a Tea Party event no less, as irrefutable proof that there's no social bias that endangers gun carrying minorities more than whites? Just like that, isolated events do away entirely with history and reality. Alright then.


Actually that was just one incident; it was hardly the only one.  I also mentioned that the public is used to seeing black cops open carrying, or black military members with guns.  Hell, how many movies are there were the hero is black and has guns?   Last time I was at the range there were more than a few black folk.  I've known quite a few black folk that were gun nuts.  $#@! man, the only person here seeing color terms of gun ownership/rights is you.

Perhaps you are just isolated and out of touch due to being in NYC.

----------


## Antischism

> ...provided by the state, naturally. More liberal big-government bull$#@!.


Believe it or not, I want to abolish the State so racist trolls like you can go away and do whatever it is your ilk does, and I can peacefully coexist somewhere far away from you.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Can you point out where I stated it can't or shouldn't be overcome? If I recall correctly, I was pushing the need for education. The historical and social impacts on the black community were used to back up my point on why it's necessary to educate, and why we can't simply expect people to magically wake up after decades of being told they weren't civilized enough to own guns. You can call accepting reality divisive if you want and hide behind this idea that not speaking about racism will lessen racism which is patently false, but I think it's necessary to address those issues if you want to bridge the metaphorical gap.
> 
> And again, these anecdotes don't refute our past and present reality.





> As for the Bundy Ranch stuff, when are we going to train and arm the black community? The situations are quite different. Furthermore, *I'd argue cops are a hell of a lot more likely to shoot an armed black man* if they can't even refrain from shooting a 12-year-old black boy with a toy gun in a school setting.


Tell that to Erik Scott. Or that poor bastard they shot in his doorway in Florida, or Jose Guarena or Nick Christie or Kelly Thomas or on and on...

That is where the disconnect is.

The situations are *not* different, as far as I'm concerned.

They are, in *principle*, exactly the same.

And I would love nothing more than to see the exact same "Bundy" response in Ferguson.

----------


## CPUd

The Whistle Stop is not on fire.

Large crowd gathering in the parking lot at Dollar Tree

Continue roving patrols on the W Flourissant corridor.

Police cars blocking traffic on Church, nowhere to re-route it, what to do?

----------


## invisible

> Believe it or not, I want to abolish the State so racist trolls like you can go away and do whatever it is your ilk does, and I can peacefully coexist somewhere far away from you.


I have yet to see him make any sort of positive contribution here, let alone an intelligent one.

----------


## CPUd

Attempted break-in at walgreen's.  Units arrive, everyone is scattering.

STL County has no more available resources at this time.

Silver vehicle, tinted windows failing to yield, no lights on, just hit a police car.

back to walgreens, looters coming back

----------


## Antischism

> Actually that was just one incident; it was hardly the only one.  I also mentioned that the public is used to seeing black cops open carrying, or black military members with guns.  Hell, how many movies are there were the hero is black and has guns?   Last time I was at the range there were more than a few black folk.  I've known quite a few black folk that were gun nuts.  $#@! man, the only person here seeing color terms of gun ownership/rights is you.
> 
> Perhaps you are just isolated and out of touch due to being in NYC.


You don't see the difference between how the public would perceive a black cop or member of the military carrying a gun, and some mundane? There's plenty of statistical evidence that shows a significant bias in regards to the perception of armed people via race. Unsurprisingly, it doesn't favor minorities.

----------


## CPUd

chasing the silver vehicle, speeds up to 100mph

order to observe only, IL State police will pick it up if he crosses state lines.

walgreens is secured.

----------


## presence

> Silver vehicle, tinted windows failing to yield, no lights on, just hit a police car.


ouch tough evening in paradise there

----------


## specsaregood

> Believe it or not, I want to abolish the State so racist trolls like you can go away and do whatever it is your ilk does, and I can peacefully coexist somewhere far away from you.


Its always seems to be the true racists that go around pointing and screaming calling others racist the loudest.




> You don't see the difference between how the public would perceive a black cop or member of the military carrying a gun, and some mundane?


No, I don't.  Most of those cops still carry off duy when they look just like some mundane.   The point is people see blacks with guns just as much as whites, I think you are using outdated perceptions or just biased yourself.

----------


## Antischism

> Tell that to Erik Scott. Or that poor bastard they shot in his doorway in Florida, or Jose Guarena or Nick Christie or Kelly Thomas or on and on...
> 
> That is where the disconnect is.
> 
> The situations are *not* different, as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> They are, in *principle*, exactly the same.
> 
> And I would love nothing more than to see the exact same "Bundy" response in Ferguson.


That's fine, and you can think of it in principle, but the black "experience" in America is one that finds they're disproportionately targeted and discriminated against. Like I said previously, if you simply don't want to talk about racism for whatever reason, that's fine. But to pretend racism doesn't exist or play a role/impact the life of a person who's "guilty" of having the wrong skin color is dishonest. Your average black person who has seen this first-hand isn't going to think about the "principle," they're going to (correctly) see that there's a long history of abuse on those of color. They're going to (again, correctly) realize that latent and systemic racism has been dealing them an even worse hand. I think it's more productive to address both the racist element AND the overall principle. They're not mutually exclusive.

----------


## ChristianAnarchist

> Bottom line:
> 
> Brown was a criminal who assaulted and stole as he pleased.  He assaulted a cop and tried to take his gun.  Got shot.  //
> 
> All the BS protesting would have happened anyway.  This has nothing to do with Brown.  Looters gonna loot.


And Goons gonna goon...

----------


## Anti Federalist

> That's fine, and you can think of it in principle, but the black "experience" in America is one that finds they're disproportionately targeted and discriminated against. Like I said previously, if you simply don't want to talk about racism for whatever reason, that's fine. But to pretend racism doesn't exist or play a role/impact the life of a person who's "guilty" of having the wrong skin color. Your average black person who has seen this first-hand isn't going to think about the "principle," they're going to (correctly) see that there's a long history of abuse on those of color. They're going to (again, correctly) realize that latent and systemic racism has been dealing them an even worse hand. I think it's more productive to address both the racist element AND the overall principle. They're not mutually exclusive.


I already acknowledged that the "black experience" is littered with police abuse and long standing outrages at the hands of government.

Where you and differ is that I don't think black folks are idiots that cannot understand and handle freedom, especially Second Amendment freedoms, because of that.

----------


## Antischism

> Its always seems to be the true racists that go around pointing and screaming calling others racist the loudest.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I don't.  Most of those cops still carry off duy when they look just like some mundane.   The point is people see blacks with guns just as much as whites, I think you are using outdated perceptions or just biased yourself.


Ahh, the classic "you're the one talking about racism so you're the real racist!" line of thought. You'd do well to throw away that fallacy.

----------


## CPUd

Sounds like the people in the silver car stopped and bailed out.  They got one, and are still looking for one.  Chopper going up to relieve the one that is getting ready to land.

They caught the other guy from the silver car.

----------


## Antischism

> I already acknowledged that the "black experience" is littered with police abuse and long standing outrages at the hands of government.
> 
> Where you and differ is that I don't think black folks are idiots that cannot understand and handle freedom, especially Second Amendment freedoms, because of that.


I don't think they're idiots either. Never implied that. With that specific line of reasoning, you'd have to imply I think all people are idiots because I believe everyone needs to be educated. This discussion is specific to the black community and their experiences. I do however, realize the real impact social conditioning and years of subjugation can have on people. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

----------


## CPUd

NG Humvees called for staging to be deployed.

----------


## specsaregood

> Ahh, the classic "you're the one talking about racism so you're the real racist!" line of thought. You'd do well to throw away that fallacy.


No, I think its your own comments that have exposed you this evening.

----------


## CPUd

Silent panic alarm activated from Popeye's Chicken.

... Popeye's is clear.

----------


## DFF

lol

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I don't think they're idiots either. Never implied that. With that specific line of reasoning, you'd have to imply I think all people are idiots because I believe everyone needs to be educated. This discussion is specific to the black community and their experiences. I do however, realize the real impact social conditioning and years of subjugation can have on people. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.


Fair enough, don't want to derail the thread any further anyways.

----------


## FloralScent

> I don't think they're idiots either. Never implied that. With that specific line of reasoning, you'd have to imply I think all people are idiots because I believe *everyone needs to be educated*.


I thought you wanted to leave everyone alone.  Abolish the state my ass.  You're about as sincere about that as Marx was.  Without the state, you'd have no mechanism to force you views upon others.

----------


## DFF

> With that specific line of reasoning, you'd have to imply I think all people are idiots because I believe everyone needs to be educated.


Or better yet, _re_-educated...amiright?

----------


## CPUd

Apparently there are private security details out there.  There was one in a parking lot around a business, and some on the roofs of buildings.  Police will ride up to them and call it in, dispatch will tell them if they are authorized.


2 individuals identified from the crowd to be throwing bricks at the police line.



People with molotovs and guns around the Ferguson PD.


A number of residents have been calling in criminal trespassing on their property.

----------


## orenbus



----------


## juleswin

> 


I just have to reply after watching the first 2 mins of this guy. I know its always better to hear all 30mins out before commenting but since I am about to leave the apt and I usually cant stomach 30mins of anything that's not a movie or documentary, I will reply anyway just on only the 2 mins that I have watched.

I find it weird that this anti statist will buy the decisions of the grand jury that was made in secret this easily. Don't get me wrong, there is always a possibility that everything that was done in the secret was fair to both sides and at the end they found no evidence that warranted a trial. But to assume that the state conducting what could easily be considered an internal investigation with state prosecutors on one side and the state worker on the other side will not be biased against against Mike Brown is just silly. 

I don't know what really happened but I would still prefer some sort of a public trial, I want to see the evidence, hear the witnesses and then decide for myself what really happened. This is not the first time a policeman have gotten off the hook via grand jury investigation for something that is so blatantly police overreaction (not saying this one is).

----------


## Danke

> I find it weird that this anti statist will buy the decisions of the grand jury that was made in secret this easily. Don't get me wrong, there is always a possibility that everything that was done in the secret was fair to both sides and at the end they found no evidence that warranted a trial.


For being secret, there sure has been a lot of information made public so far.  And witnesses are allowed to speak publicly.

----------


## Deborah K

> Boy ain't _that_ the truth.
> 
> Anyone believing that the uppermost levels of Empire could give a fundamental damn about race is fooling themselves.
> 
> Speaking of which, back in 2000 when I was still raking in the cash, the Evil One (ex gf and perennial bitch) dragged me to a timeshare facility in Scottsdale for some sales event.  As we were doing the tour, out by the pool was a young black d00d.  He was well put together and had a pistol on his hip.  I got all warm and fuzzy feeling as I am wont in the presence of my armed fellows.  The couple behind us, from Ill-Annoy and clearly liberals based on their conversations which they seemed determined to let the whole community in on, basically $#@! a pickle.  The woman nervously alerted her husband to the "negro" (I $#@! you not - she called him that) with a gun.  The two were most uncomfortable from that time onward and I suspect no sale was forthcoming there, that day.


Off topic, but this reminded me of the time when my husband and I went to the Grand Canyon.  We drove our RV from Cali to AZ and stayed at a KOA about 25 miles away.  We got one of those tour packages where they come and get you, feed you lunch, etc..  On the way there, the topics of politics and social issues came up.  Everyone in the van who was chiming in, except Mark and I, was being sooooooo PC in their responses to things we were saying.  Mark and I kept looking at each other and were becoming annoyed.  Eventually, I couldn't contain myself any longer and blurted out: "Political Correctness is going to get us all killed."  The driver busted out laughing.  They all went into defense mode.  Then, we finally get to the parking lot at the Grand Canyon, and some idiot with his dumbass family was taking up the parking spaces on each side of their car trying to get their $#@! together, completely oblivious to the fact that the parking lot was full, and that they were holding people up.  Everyone in the van was getting edgy about it, so after about 5 minutes of this $#@!, I opened the door and told the guy to please move so we could get in.  He just ignored me.  So I yelled at him, and then he finally picked his crap up and moved it behind his car so we could get in. One of the PC women in the van scolded me and said: "You shouldn't have done that - you don't know if he had a gun. What if he had a gun?"  To which I replied: "He doesn't know if I have one either."  She says: "Well, we don't need the OK Corral in the parking lot at the Grand Canyon."  I snorted: "Look lady, if it were up to you, we'd still be waiting in the Van, and you'd still be complaining about him. He moved, we're parked, and nobody's been shot.  But your politically correct cowardice has been noted."  I didn't hear what she said because she was walking off, but I don't think it was: "Have a nice day."

----------


## phill4paul

> Off topic, but this reminded me of the time when my husband and I went to the Grand Canyon.  We drove our RV from Cali to AZ and stayed at a KOA about 25 miles away.  We got one of those tour packages where they come and get you, feed you lunch, etc..  On the way there, the topics of politics and social issues came up.  Everyone in the van who was chiming in, except Mark and I, was being sooooooo PC in their responses to things we were saying.  Mark and I kept looking at each other and were becoming annoyed.  Eventually, I couldn't contain myself any longer and blurted out: "Political Correctness is going to get us all killed."  The driver busted out laughing.  They all went into defense mode.  Then, we finally get to the parking lot at the Grand Canyon, and some idiot with his dumbass family was taking up the parking spaces on each side of their car trying to get their $#@! together, completely oblivious to the fact that the parking lot was full, and that they were holding people up.  Everyone in the van was getting edgy about it, so after about 5 minutes of this $#@!, I opened the door and told the guy to please move so we could get in.  He just ignored me.  So I yelled at him, and then he finally picked his crap up and moved it behind his car so we could get in. One of the PC women in the van scolded me and said: "You shouldn't have done that - you don't know if he had a gun. What if he had a gun?"  To which I replied: "He doesn't know if I have one either."  She says: "Well, we don't need the OK Corral in the parking lot at the Grand Canyon."  I snorted: "Look lady, if it were up to you, we'd still be waiting in the Van, and you'd still be complaining about him. He moved, we're parked, and nobody's been shot.  But your politically correct cowardice has been noted."  I didn't hear what she said because she was walking off, but I don't think it was: "Have a nice day."


  Lol. I would have imagined this was some time ago before you could carry in National parks. You probably could have replied "But this is a gun-free zone, honey. He couldn't possibly have one." and see how that sat with her.

----------


## Deborah K

> Lol. I would have imagined this was some time ago before you could carry in National parks. You probably could have replied "But this is a gun-free zone, honey. He couldn't possibly have one." and see how that sat with her.


Probably.   He was speaking Farsi to his large family, and I'm wondering if his nationality had something to do with their fear.  She was just so fearful.  They all were.  They were so very conscious of using the right words when they spoke, and making sure not to offend.  Except when it came to me, of course.   I became an easy target because I didn't think like they did.  That incident really opened our eyes.

----------


## JK/SEA

> Probably.   He was speaking Farsi to his large family, and I'm wondering if his nationality had something to do with their fear.  She was just so fearful.  They all were.  They were so very conscious of using the right words when they spoke, and making sure not to offend.  Except when it came to me, of course.   I became an easy target because I didn't think like they did.  That incident really opened our eyes.


good story Deb.  I just last week had a longtime 'friend' threaten me. We were going back and forth about the police state, and finally he tells me i'm 'scaring' him, and that he's 'thinking' of sending my emails to the cops. Well, guess what?...he's not my friend anymore. Crazy bastard went waaaay over the line....shocked the hell out of me. So far, no cops at my door.....yet.

----------


## JK/SEA

> Hey, I got a question. It's really easy to answer. If you're a Libertarian-Republican, and you believe in Liberty, then why do you constantly espouse hardcore marxist ideas?


hey, i got a question. Guess what it is...

----------


## jmdrake

> All around America, these people are killing without consequence, and by and large the traditional electorate will defend it, because the only examples they are allowed to see are people like Michael Brown.  Forcing the ambiguous ones to the top as a wedge to wedge people apart and keep us divided.
> 
> Miriam Cary was executed by the American Police State.  The Police State has totally encroached most of the United States.  The Police State has adopted a wartime footing, and applies a Rules Of Engagement that belongs in a combat zone.  
> 
> The State has been able to kill black men without consequence for a very long time.  What is new, is the ability to kill pretty much anybody without consequence.  The Police State is applying those lessons, and you can bet the first cold blooded white killing that explodes across the news cycle will be a thug of some kind.  Another stage of division.


True.  Except I would add that the first cold blooded white killings already happened and the "white supremacist/extremist" meme was used.  Remember Waco and Ruby Ridge?  I am ashamed to admit this, but in the Ruby Ridge killing I still struggle being sympathetic knowing that the Weaver family were white nationalists.  But the way the mom was shot in cold blood by a sniper was inexcusable.  And all over a guy with a shotgun and a hacksaw.

----------


## JK/SEA

> True.  Except I would add that the first cold blooded white killings already happened and the "white supremacist/extremist" meme was used.  Remember Waco and Ruby Ridge?  I am ashamed to admit this, but in the Ruby Ridge killing I still struggle being sympathetic knowing that the Weaver family were white nationalists.  But the way the mom was shot in cold blood by a sniper was inexcusable.  And all over a guy with a shotgun and a hacksaw.


the Weavers were Seperatists...not sure of the Nationalist label though..

----------


## moostraks

> good story Deb.  I just last week had a longtime 'friend' threaten me. We were going back and forth about the police state, and finally he tells me i'm 'scaring' him, and that he's 'thinking' of sending my emails to the cops. Well, guess what?...he's not my friend anymore. Crazy bastard went waaaay over the line....shocked the hell out of me. So far, no cops at my door.....yet.


My sympathies. My S.O.B. First husband, the guy who held me hostage and tried to kill me years ago, popped up almost a year ago wanting to "friend" me, yeah I could write novels on some weird crap in my life. Well, friend me he may not but I have listened to him when he randomly messages me and he called me one of "those" people because I don't have a high opinion of LEOs or government authority. Then he proceeds to pop some wise comment about he thought I sort of leaned that way years ago. What an a@$hole, esp. after all that has happened. As spooked and paranoid as government is nowadays and as easy as it is for people to lodge complaints it puts a chilling effect on free speech and genuine complaints against government overreach. Morons cannot seem to grasp what making threats like that are actually perpetuating and dig their own grave of abusive government. Unfortunately they take the rest of us with them.

----------


## moostraks

> Off topic, but this reminded me of the time when my husband and I went to the Grand Canyon.  We drove our RV from Cali to AZ and stayed at a KOA about 25 miles away.  We got one of those tour packages where they come and get you, feed you lunch, etc..  On the way there, the topics of politics and social issues came up.  Everyone in the van who was chiming in, except Mark and I, was being sooooooo PC in their responses to things we were saying.  Mark and I kept looking at each other and were becoming annoyed.  Eventually, I couldn't contain myself any longer and blurted out: "Political Correctness is going to get us all killed."  The driver busted out laughing.  They all went into defense mode.  Then, we finally get to the parking lot at the Grand Canyon, and some idiot with his dumbass family was taking up the parking spaces on each side of their car trying to get their $#@! together, completely oblivious to the fact that the parking lot was full, and that they were holding people up.  Everyone in the van was getting edgy about it, so after about 5 minutes of this $#@!, I opened the door and told the guy to please move so we could get in.  He just ignored me.  So I yelled at him, and then he finally picked his crap up and moved it behind his car so we could get in. One of the PC women in the van scolded me and said: "You shouldn't have done that - you don't know if he had a gun. What if he had a gun?"  To which I replied: "He doesn't know if I have one either."  She says: "Well, we don't need the OK Corral in the parking lot at the Grand Canyon."  I snorted: "Look lady, if it were up to you, we'd still be waiting in the Van, and you'd still be complaining about him. He moved, we're parked, and nobody's been shot.  But your politically correct cowardice has been noted."  I didn't hear what she said because she was walking off, but I don't think it was: "Have a nice day."


I <3 this! Lol

----------


## Lucille

Darren Wilson Got a Private Trial Run by Friendly Prosecutors
http://reason.com/blog/2014/11/26/da...-private-trial

How Grand Was That Ferguson Grand Jury? A Couple of Perspectives
http://reason.com/blog/2014/11/25/ho...n-grand-jury-a

How often are cops indicted? Almost never. How often are Mundanes? Almost always. 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...-Almost-always

----------


## presence



----------


## JK/SEA

> 


DFF...is that you?

----------


## presence



----------


## jmdrake

> Yeah, I remember the Koreans during the LA riots:


I'm not sure where that picture was from, but there was only one Korean killed during those riots.  And he was killed by friendly fire.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...m-attacks.html
_Edward Song Lee, an 18-year-old Asian man, was shot and killed Thursday, April 30, 1992, in Koreatown. Lee, a Korean American, was attempting to protect shops near 3rd Street and Hobart Boulevard when he was apparently shot by fellow Korean Americans who mistook him for a looter._

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/lo...148333545.html
_The parents of Eddie Lee, the LA Riots’ only Korean-American victim, visit their son’s grave twice a month – meticulously tending to the raised letters, clipping the grass and wiping the tiny image of their..._

----------


## Anti Federalist

> True.  Except I would add that the first cold blooded white killings already happened and the "white supremacist/extremist" meme was used.  Remember Waco and Ruby Ridge?  *I am ashamed to admit this, but in the Ruby Ridge killing I still struggle being sympathetic knowing that the Weaver family were white nationalists.*  But the way the mom was shot in cold blood by a sniper was inexcusable.  And all over a guy with a shotgun and a hacksaw.


We all do.

I "struggled" with Rodney King and his background over twenty years ago. 

(Taking that position almost got me banned from my first online political forum, the old TownHall forum on CompuServe.)

But what happened to him was just flat out wrong, same as what happened to the Weavers.

Wrong is wrong.

Brutal, militarized police know no boundaries.

*We, all of us, are "enemy hostiles" as far as they are concerned.*

----------


## Smitty

The Social Justice Warrior rot has come to the Ron Paul forums.

Defending robbers and looters will crush the legitimacy out of the liberty movement.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> The Social Justice Warrior rot has come to the Ron Paul forums.
> 
> Defending robbers and looters will crush the legitimacy out of the liberty movement.


Wut?

----------


## JK/SEA

> The Social Justice Warrior rot has come to the Ron Paul forums.
> 
> Defending robbers and looters will crush the legitimacy out of the liberty movement.


this 'opinion' of yours is subjective, and biased towards law enforcement. Thanks for playing.

----------


## Lucille

> The Social Justice Warrior rot has come to the Ron Paul forums.
> 
> Defending robbers and looters will crush the legitimacy out of the liberty movement.

----------


## JK/SEA

geez...the owners of this site need pest control...the TEA-O-CONS are running rampant in here lately.

----------


## Smitty



----------


## GunnyFreedom

> The Social Justice Warrior rot has come to the Ron Paul forums.
> 
> Defending robbers and looters will crush the legitimacy out of the liberty movement.


LOL who is defending robbers and looters?

----------


## Smitty

I see the looters in Furguson bullying citizens and destroying their property.

That's not the liberty movement.

----------


## JK/SEA

> 


you sure those weren't agent provacateurs?...

----------


## JK/SEA

> I see the looters in Furguson bullying citizens and destroying their property.
> 
> That's not the liberty movement.


you sure about that?...whats your opinion of the original Tea Party in Boston Harbor?

----------


## GunnyFreedom

Seems to me folks around here are calling for robbers and looters to be shot on sight.  By the private property owners or their designated private security detail.  I fail to see how that is equal to 'social justice rot.'  Perhaps you could explain?

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> you sure those weren't agent provacateurs?...


They can provoke their way into a fat triple tap from an AR as soon as they came in my doorway.

----------


## Deborah K

> I see the looters in Furguson bullying citizens and destroying their property.
> 
> That's not the liberty movement.


Well no shiiiiitttttt.  No one here is defending the looters and destroyers of innocent businesses.

----------


## JK/SEA

> They can provoke their way into a fat triple tap from an AR as soon as they came in my doorway.


same.

i don't like being effed with, especially when my property is on the line. Having the King's men baby sitting my $#@! doesn't sit well with me.

----------


## Deborah K

> 


In the clip here, the wine store owner goes balls out on defense for his store, then changes his mind at the end.  I'm very curious as to whether his store was one of the targets. 

Does anyone know?  Because, if so, I'm guessing he really regrets his decision now.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> same.
> 
> i don't like being effed with, especially when my property is on the line. Having the King's men baby sitting my $#@! doesn't sit well with me.


Yeah, that's how weapons get confiscated, and completely ruined before the owner gets them back. Or piles of money that get found guilty.  Or whatever inventory the see and like and happen to need.

----------


## Deborah K

> you sure about that?...whats your opinion of the original Tea Party in Boston Harbor?


I have to say, I don't think that's a good comparison.  The Ferguson aggression looks to be more like random rage; destroying their own neighborhoods like the morons during the Rodney King trials.  The tea dumping was planned and strategic, and used to propagandize British oppression.  If they were smart in Ferguson, they would have targeted government buildings.

----------


## JK/SEA

//

----------


## JK/SEA

> I have to say, I don't think that's a good comparison.  The Ferguson aggression looks to be more like random rage; destroying their own neighborhoods like the morons during the Rodney King trials.  The tea dumping was planned and strategic, and used to propagandize British oppression.  If they were smart in Ferguson, they would have targeted government buildings.


Hmmm...food for thought Deb....my take is, and i could be wrong, but biz brings in tax money. Take away that revenue, and local government gets stressed. How stressed is the big question.

----------


## otherone

> The tea dumping was planned and strategic, and used to propagandize British oppression.  If they were smart in Ferguson, they would have targeted government buildings.


It wasn't "government" tea.  That concept didn't come about until LBJ.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I have to say, I don't think that's a good comparison.  The Ferguson aggression looks to be more like random rage; destroying their own neighborhoods like the morons during the Rodney King trials.  The tea dumping was planned and strategic, and used to propagandize British oppression.  *If they were smart in Ferguson, they would have targeted government buildings*.


Yup, that.

----------


## UWDude

> I have to say, I don't think that's a good comparison.  The Ferguson aggression looks to be more like random rage; destroying their own neighborhoods like the morons during the Rodney King trials.  The tea dumping was planned and strategic, and used to propagandize British oppression.  If they were smart in Ferguson, they would have targeted government buildings.


Hav eyou ever tried to target a government building?  Lots of bravado and bluster here, (and on the internet in general).  Everybody is always so brave, and wonderful strategists from behind their keyboards.

----------


## UWDude

> For being secret, there sure has been a lot of information made public so far.  And witnesses are allowed to speak publicly.



filtered information.  It has already been reported that some of the evidence will remain secret.

----------


## UWDude

> The Social Justice Warrior rot has come to the Ron Paul forums.
> 
> Defending robbers and looters will crush the legitimacy out of the liberty movement.


What about defending child molesters (David Koresh) and White Separatists (ruby ridge?)

I still do, because it is not about their minor crimes, it is about the mass murder of the state.

----------


## orenbus

> In the clip here, the wine store owner goes balls out on defense for his store, then changes his mind at the end.  I'm very curious as to whether his store was one of the targets. 
> 
> Does anyone know?  Because, if so, I'm guessing he really regrets his decision now.


His store is near the county court house in Clayton in an affluent neighborhood most of the destruction was in Ferguson and Delwood, about 10 minutes away, he wasn't affected.

----------


## presence

> If they were smart in Ferguson, they would have targeted government buildings.


It seems the broader "organized" national protests were all targeted at closing government roads and bridges.   

If I had to guess... of the 17 buildings in Ferguson that were lit on fire... maybe 3 arsonists were involved.   I suspect the same 3 that lit the 12 cop cars on fire.  

The looting?  Opportunist criminal class, certainly sympathetic to the protesters... while equally certainly looting for profit not civil disobedience.   

Most of the people I saw on the streets were not protesters or looters... they were a bunch of lookyloos like the crowd gathered around a high school fist fight.

----------


## orenbus

> I have to say, I don't think that's a good comparison.  The Ferguson aggression looks to be more like random rage; destroying their own neighborhoods like the morons during the Rodney King trials.  The tea dumping was planned and strategic, and used to propagandize British oppression.  If they were smart in Ferguson, they would have targeted government buildings.


Agreed. While we were watching what was happening we were thinking the same thing, the people there though couldn't target the government buildings because of the national guard and police presence specifically protecting those buildings, although some tried. I heard a couple of bricks were thrown and broke glass windows of the local court house, and they started a fire near a neighboring town police station, but ended up being a firehouse. They couldn't get close enough to the government buildings.

----------


## Philhelm

> Hav eyou ever tried to target a government building?  Lots of bravado and bluster here, (and on the internet in general).  Everybody is always so brave, and wonderful strategists from behind their keyboards.


I successfully attacked Area 51 in Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas.  I also went on multiple cop-killing sprees.  Does that count?

----------


## tod evans

Ummm,

Buildings aren't the problem here folks....

----------


## Anti Federalist

> What about defending child molesters (David Koresh) and White Separatists (ruby ridge?)
> 
> I still do, because it is not about their minor crimes, it is about the mass murder of the state.


Koresh was fully investigated by the state, and no evidence of "child molestation" was found.

Also, FYI, roughly half of the Davidians at that church and those murdered by the USG were "non white".

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Most of the people I saw on the streets were not protesters or looters... they were a bunch of lookyloos like the crowd gathered around a high school fist fight.


This.

More cameras and sail-fawns than anything else.

----------


## orenbus

Some street interviews at the height of what was happening, shows a armed store owner near the police station, etc.

----------


## orenbus

> Ummm,
> 
> Buildings aren't the problem here folks....

----------


## Brian4Liberty

> I'm not sure where that picture was from, but there was only one Korean killed during those riots.  And he was killed by friendly fire.
> 
> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...m-attacks.html
> _Edward Song Lee, an 18-year-old Asian man, was shot and killed Thursday, April 30, 1992, in Koreatown. Lee, a Korean American, was attempting to protect shops near 3rd Street and Hobart Boulevard when he was apparently shot by fellow Korean Americans who mistook him for a looter._
> 
> http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/lo...148333545.html
> _The parents of Eddie Lee, the LA Riots only Korean-American victim, visit their sons grave twice a month  meticulously tending to the raised letters, clipping the grass and wiping the tiny image of their..._


I had that same question...

----------


## UWDude

> Koresh was fully investigated by the state, and no evidence of "child molestation" was found.
> 
> Also, FYI, roughly half of the Davidians at that church and those murdered by the USG were "non white".


even if he was guilty... ...the kids twisted to death by CS gas certainly were not child molesters.  But the whole defense of the ATF, FBI etc was focused on one man.  Just like it is all being focused on Michael Brown today.

----------


## twomp

Target a government building and go from being a rioter/looter into a domestic terrorist. Great advice!

----------


## Deborah K

> 


In the last clip: "Blowing up a building can change the world."

It's true.  It changed _us_........

----------


## Deborah K

> Target a government building and go from being a rioter/looter into a domestic terrorist. Great advice!





> Hav eyou ever tried to target a government building?  Lots of bravado and bluster here, (and on the internet in general).  Everybody is always so brave, and wonderful strategists from behind their keyboards.



I was arm-chair quarterbacking.  But the reality is, the time is coming when there will be a revolt.  Mark my words.  And destroying your own neighborhood is a dumbass way to do it.  just sayin

----------


## PRB

> Koresh was fully investigated by the state, and no evidence of "child molestation" was found.
> 
> Also, FYI, roughly half of the Davidians at that church and those murdered by the USG were "non white".


There's two people this government hates : minorities because our government is racist, and white supremacists because the government is communist. Half were non white meaning half were white.

----------


## orenbus

> Hmmm...food for thought Deb....my take is, and i could be wrong, but biz brings in tax money. Take away that revenue, and local government gets stressed. How stressed is the big question.


It maybe misdirected rage or some form of logic to reduce revenue to a government that doesn't represent the people of the community or a mix of both, but one thing is clear I would think by now many if not most of the protestors in Ferguson understand that the local police department is running a business and what they are providing for-profit law enforcement at the expense of the individual, a policy that targets the least economically well off.

"The city of Ferguson's second-highest source of revenue is court fees and traffic tickets"
"$2.6 million a year in fines and court fees, typically from small-scale infractions like traffic violations."




> For a low-income community--and for a black community subjected to the racial profiling, as the report documents--these fines can gather force like a boulder rolling downhill. 
> 
> And racial profiling appears to be the rule. In Ferguson, "86% of vehicle stops involved a black motorist, although blacks make up just 67% of the population," the report states. "After being stopped in Ferguson, blacks are almost twice as likely as whites to be searched (12.1% vs. 7.9%) and twice as likely to be arrested." But those searches result in the discovery of contraband at a much lower rate than searches of whites.


http://www.latimes.com/business/hilt...21-column.html

----------


## Deborah K

> It wasn't "government" tea.  That concept didn't come about until LBJ.


It doesn't matter that it wasn't government tea.  The issue was over government taxation of said tea.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Act

----------


## orenbus

> Target a government building and go from being a rioter/looter into a domestic terrorist. Great advice!


Not advice, just the perspective of I'm sure some on the ground there. 

Who is the terrorist when buildings and monuments are constructed by politicians and LEO through revenue generated by a local oppressive for-profit government. Everyone has a breaking point for those of us not affected by what happens in Ferguson we can look at things perhaps in a different light, some would say more objectively, but for those that live in a toxic environment that perspective would be largely different and the disparities of what generates these views is what should be addressed.

----------


## orenbus

Just watching CNN segment with interviews with local business owners of Sam's meat market and a Delwood convenience store.

Government officials told business owners not to go about protecting their property, that their businesses would be safe. But instead police was concentrated protecting businesses around the police station instead of having a presence in other parts of Ferguson and surrounding area.

Now Sam's meat market has been destroyed and the other store again looted as happened in August.

CNN tried to reach out to the Justice department, they had no comment.


###
So essentially sounds like local business owners met with government officials in anticipation of the grand jury decision announcement, and representatives of government told them don't go out there with weapons to defend their property and the store owners listened.

----------


## otherone

> Government officials told business owners not to go about protecting their property, that their businesses would be safe


here ya' go....

----------


## euphemia

I don't think you all get to have it both ways.  Police are between a rock and a hard place.  They can't be seen as using excessive force, but when thugs and insurrectionists invade a community and destroy private property, they are seen as not doing their jobs.  

Believe it or not, every cop is not out to kill innocent citizens.  I believe the increased militarization of police can be directly linked to the 1997 North Hollywood bank robbery and shootout where two men robbed a BOA and killed and injured a lot of police.  The talk at that time was, "What do you expect?  The criminals are better armed and protected than the police."  So efforts were made to give police bigger weapons.

Can't have it both ways.  If people are determined to live lawlessly, or to defend lawlessness, they need to be prepared to accept the consequences of their choice.  I really don't like the way people are provoking each other to violence and destruction in this case.  It is ridiculous and will resolve nothing.

----------


## phill4paul

> I don't think you all get to have it both ways.  Police are between a rock and a hard place.  They can't be seen as using excessive force, but when thugs and insurrectionists invade a community and destroy private property, they are seen as not doing their jobs.  
> 
> Believe it or not, every cop is not out to kill innocent citizens.  I believe the increased militarization of police can be directly linked to the 1997 North Hollywood bank robbery and shootout where two men robbed a BOA and killed and injured a lot of police.  The talk at that time was, "What do you expect?  The criminals are better armed and protected than the police."  So efforts were made to give police bigger weapons.
> 
> Can't have it both ways.  If people are determined to live lawlessly, or to defend lawlessness, they need to be prepared to accept the consequences of their choice.  I really don't like the way people are provoking each other to violence and destruction in this case.  It is ridiculous and will resolve nothing.


  I can have it neither way. It is the right approach. It is the Constitutional approach. A moral society in which citizens are allowed to arm themselves has no need for them.

----------


## brushfire

> Something not shown much in the media. This is how to stop looters. The american way. 
> 
> http://www.libertynews.com/2014/11/b...ester-looting/








> Why does an individual need an AK15?






Thats why, Oreilly.  Because every day people dont have an armed entourage.   ...And its "AR15", or "AK47/74" - pinhead.

----------


## euphemia

I'm not saying citizens don't get to arm themselves.  I'm saying that either police use force or they don't.  Pick one.  If police are not allowed to use force, be prepared to defend your own property.  If police are supposed to use force, then don't get upset if a thug who threw down a store clerk to steal cigars gets more force than he expected.

Not one time have I heard anyone in that community apologize to the store clerk, who has lost more than just the box of cigars by now.  

I find people on this forum to be horribly inconsistent.  Respect the property of others and live like you have good sense.  Expect a problem if you don't.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> I don't think you all get to have it both ways.  Police are between a rock and a hard place.  They can't be seen as using excessive force, but when thugs and insurrectionists invade a community and destroy private property, they are seen as not doing their jobs.  
> 
> Believe it or not, every cop is not out to kill innocent citizens.  I believe the increased militarization of police can be directly linked to the 1997 North Hollywood bank robbery and shootout where two men robbed a BOA and killed and injured a lot of police.  The talk at that time was, "What do you expect?  The criminals are better armed and protected than the police."  So efforts were made to give police bigger weapons.


Bullpucky.  Any one of the tens of thousands of standard .308 rifles in police service at the time would have swiss cheesed the Level II and Level IIIA like it wasn't even there.  The need to go steal an AR (LESS effective than the standard service hunting .308 that ALL police departments utilized) was a lie.  The need for heavier weapons was a con job.  Don't believe the hype.




> Can't have it both ways.  If people are determined to live lawlessly, or to defend lawlessness, they need to be prepared to accept the consequences of their choice.  I really don't like the way people are provoking each other to violence and destruction in this case.  It is ridiculous and will resolve nothing.

----------


## phill4paul

> I'm not saying citizens don't get to arm themselves.  I'm saying that either police use force or they don't.  Pick one.  If police are not allowed to use force, be prepared to defend your own property.  If police are supposed to use force, then don't get upset if a thug who threw down a store clerk to steal cigars gets more force than he expected.
> 
> Not one time have I heard anyone in that community apologize to the store clerk, who has lost more than just the box of cigars by now.  
> 
> I find people on this forum to be horribly inconsistent.  Respect the property of others and live like you have good sense.  Expect a problem if you don't.


  Police DON'T get to use firearms because there should be no police. It's really that simple.

----------


## orenbus



----------


## phill4paul

> No, but a privately paid-for security force is just as corruptible as publicly funded one.


  A privately paid for security force can be held accountable by the judicial system without the inherent problems of being a part of the same system. The current one is nepotism by departments.

----------


## green73

> No, but a privately paid-for security force is just as corruptible as publicly funded one.


Even if that were true, the private security firm doesn't have a monopoly. Unlike gov't police, they actually have to do a good job to succeed.

----------


## orenbus



----------


## Occam's Banana

> No, but a privately paid-for security force is just as corruptible as publicly funded one.


Actually, it isn't. It may indeed be corruptible - but it won't be anywhere near *as* corruptible.

The use of force is expensive - it has costs. Any thing or action (such as using force) becomes cheaper for you when you can make other people pay for it. When force-using security agencies are "publicly funded," it becomes MUCH cheaper and easier for them to use force. And (_ceteris paribus_) the cheaper something is, the more of it will be produced.

IOW: Publicly (i.e, involuntarily) funded security agences make corruption and illegitimate uses of force less expensive. So (other things being equal) you will end up getting more corruption and illegitimate uses of force. Corruption and illegitimate uses of force would be relatively much harder for privately (i.e., voluntarily) funded security agencies to afford. This is not, of course, to say that privately funded security agencies will be immune from corruption and the like - just that such things will be (significantly) more untenable and less prevalent.

----------


## euphemia

it calls for either or both.  It might not be what we have, but that's what it calls for.

To address an earlier point, consistency is working very well for me.  We don't really know what transpired that day because eyewitness accounts differ dramatically.  It was likely more than hitting a cop, and Darren Wilson wasn't the first person Brown hit that day, now, was he?  At what point does someone who takes what he wants by violence get stopped?

I think a lot of people drink the kool-aide and make the leap that all cops are bad because of the racial component here.  Does anyone know the statistics of blacks (because that's what we're talking about here) killing other blacks?  Whites killing other whites?   Why is Michael Brown such a special case?  Do police not ever shoot white people?  Sounds like a little too much mainstream media to me.  The rioting this week is nothing more than the result of media creating news, instead of simply reporting it.

----------


## orenbus

I'm convinced Don Lemon is an idiot.

This is the same guy that was debating against 2nd amendment rights not understanding the basic differences between semi-automatic and automatics, being called out on it and him trying to act like it's just semantics. Half the time he's seriously does not know what the hell he's talking about. Of course TYT pushes an agenda, but it's so blatant here and TYT calls out Don Lemon on it and the CNN producers that are talking into his ear piece not having an even basic understanding of historical events during the 60s.





Edit: here we go with Don Lemon on not knowing the difference between Automatic and Semi-Automatic weapons, what an idiot! How the hell is this guy allowed on TV??!!??!

----------


## otherone

> We don't really know what transpired that day because eyewitness accounts differ dramatically.


A trial would help.

----------


## Deborah K

> Even if that were true, the private security firm doesn't have a monopoly. Unlike gov't police, they actually have to do a good job to succeed.


Competing security firms are just as vulnerable to bribery as the gov't.  The problem I have, and have always had with anarchy, is that human behavior is not going to change just because a methodology changes.  I agree that in theory it is the ideal, but I don't believe at this juncture in our behavioral development, that it is practical.  At least, not a grand scale.  It's just my flea bitten opinion.

----------


## otherone

> The problem I have, and have always had with anarchy, is that human behavior is not going to change just because a methodology changes.


The state is composed of humans.

----------


## orenbus

Driver Plows into Ferguson Protest Crowd in Minneapolis 




Edit: Close up video at below link
Star Tribune videographer Mark Vancleave shot video of the altercation during a solidarity rally Tuesday near the Minneapolis Police’s 3rd Precinct building at Lake Street and Minnehaha Avenue S.

Car plows through protesters during Ferguson rally in south Minneapolis
http://www.startribune.com/local/min...1&c=y#continue



> The driver who lurched into a south Minneapolis intersection packed with Ferguson protesters was “attempting to flee from the mob” when he ran over and slightly injured a 16-year-old girl as others were atop the hood of his car, police said Wednesday.
> 
> The driver, Jeffrey Patrick Rice, 40, was questioned moments after the incident late Tuesday afternoon on eastbound E. Lake Street at Minnehaha Avenue S. Police said Wednesday that the case “remains under investigation.” Rice, of St. Paul, was not arrested, and no charges have been filed.
> 
> Rice’s mother said in an interview that he was coming home from work and “didn’t even know what was going on” when he encountered the crowd of several hundred blocking the intersection.
> 
> The girl who was run over by the horn-blaring Subaru station wagon was taken by emergency responders to Regions Hospital for treatment of minor injuries, police said.
> 
> “The victim’s vehicle was damaged by a large group of people,” reads the report released early Wednesday by police. “While [the driver] was attempting to flee from the mob, he struck a pedestrian. State accident report filed.”
> ...

----------


## Henry Rogue

> Competing security firms are just as vulnerable to bribery as the gov't.  The problem I have, and have always had with anarchy, is that human behavior is not going to change just because a methodology changes.  I agree that in theory it is the ideal, but I don't believe at this juncture in our behavioral development, that it is practical.  At least, not a grand scale.  It's just my flea bitten opinion.


I for one am counting on human behavior not changing, but reacting to incentive and risk as it does. A free society isn't perfect, there will always be bad actors. What i expect is far less chaos. What i see in Ferguson is chaos as a result of state interventions in society, protectionism of state actors and abuse of power.

----------


## Deborah K

> The state is composed of humans.


Wait for it.......

----------


## Deborah K

> I for one am counting on human behavior not changing, but reacting to incentive and risk as it does. A free society isn't perfect, there will always be bad actors. What i expect is far less chaos. What i see in Ferguson is chaos as a result of state interventions in society, protectionism of state actors and abuse of power.


I can agree with this.  If society collapses any time soon, we may get our chance to see if mankind can handle us some anarchy.

----------


## juleswin

> The state is composed of humans.


Are you seriously trying to convince me that the same humans like you or me run the state? that those same humans are voted into office by other humans like looters in Ferguson, cat callers, 5-9 workers, sports fan, soap opera watchers, church goers, people who think the sun revolves around the earth, people who believe in evolution and all around average citizens? 

I think you are full of it if you think I am ever going to believe that.

----------


## Henry Rogue

> I can agree with this.  If society collapses any time soon, we may get our chance to see if mankind can handle us some anarchy.


Actually, I don't hold much hope for that scenario.  I think in such a situation there would be a power struggle, a true civil war. The concept of  the individual and Liberty has been stripped from our society  through years of state schooling.  People must be exposed to ideas first.

----------


## juleswin

> I can agree with this.  If society collapses any time soon, we may get our chance to see if mankind can handle us some anarchy.


Its not really about it collapsing, what I think will be the problem is this society collapsing rapidly. People will need time to adjust and prepare for a collapse. Humans are not really the problem, humans know how to manage the heck out of their own lives when given a chance, I just pray to god that any collapse will happen gradually and orderly so as to give the humans a chance to step up and begin to manage their lives again.

----------


## green73

> Competing security firms are just as vulnerable to bribery as the gov't.


In a free market you're live or die by your performance and reputation. If you're corrupt both will suffer. 




> The problem I have, and have always had with anarchy, is that human behavior is not going to change just because a methodology changes.  I agree that in theory it is the ideal, but I don't believe at this juncture in our behavioral development, that it is practical.  At least, not a grand scale.  It's just my flea bitten opinion.


I used to think it was mainly Marxists who have a low opinion of humanity. I've since come to the realization that it's statists of all colors who believe this. People are good. If you don't believe that, you're shot as a person. Throw in the towel. 

 It's the government that's the largest corrupting force in society. Look at all the evil that comes from it. To say the same would be happening with it taken out of the equation beggars belief.

----------


## otherone

> Are you seriously trying to convince me that the same humans like you or me run the state? that those same humans are voted into office by other humans like looters in Ferguson, cat callers, 5-9 workers, sports fan, soap opera watchers, church goers, people who think the sun revolves around the earth, people who believe in evolution and all around average citizens? 
> 
> I think you are full of it if you think I am ever going to believe that.


lol.
somehow, the magical kiss of power over his fellow man improves a human's behavior...

----------


## Occam's Banana

> I can agree with this.  If society collapses any time soon, we may get our chance to see if mankind can handle us some anarchy.





> Actually, I don't hold much hope for that scenario.  I think in such a situation there would be a power struggle, a true civil war. The concept of  the individual and Liberty has been stripped from our society  through years of state schooling.  People must be exposed to ideas first.


This is why I am a staunch advocate of peaceful secession - or at least, as peaceful as TPTB may be constrained by circumstance to permit. (I'm thinking along the lines of the relatively non-violent "collapse" of the Soviet Union here ...)

If society were to violently or catastrophically "collapse" any time soon, I don't expect that whatever system replaced it - whether "anarchic" or "statist" - would be much of an improvement. Both "constitutionalism" and "anarchism" are in the same boat together - they both require a number of cultural traits (and ideals that are at least implicitly embodied in the minds of "the people") that just aren't sufficiently widespread in today's society.

----------


## Deborah K

> I used to think it was mainly Marxists who have a low opinion of humanity. I've since come to the realization that statists of all colors who believe this. People are good. If you don't believe that, you're shot as a person. Throw in the towel. 
> 
>  It's the government that's the largest corrupting force in society. Look at all the evil that comes from it. To say the same would be happening with it taken out of the equation beggars belief.


I believe that most people are inherently good.  But we're also inherently herd-like.  History has proven that those who would oppress good people, though few and far between, are able to do so because of our herd mentality.  The sociopaths among us know this and know how to manipulate us.  My point is that changing the way we organize our society isn't necessarily going to change that fact.

I think it was Juleswin and Henry who suggested that education helps combat some of that.  I agree with that assessment.  If people are educated on  the likes of Bernays and others who figured out how to market ideas to the masses, and thus manipulate us, we might not be so inclined to fall for anything and everything as the masses tend to do.




> In a free market *you're live or die by your performance and reputation*. If you're corrupt both will suffer.


That happens right now.  Small businesses go under every day due to bad reputation or bad management.  Do you think Sam Walton would be as successful as he was in a truly free market?

----------


## Anti Federalist

> I think a lot of people drink the kool-aide and make the leap that all cops are bad because of the racial component here.


No, I make that leap because:

A - They are serving to enforce the laws of a corrupt and tyrannical state.

B - There are no good cops, or there would be no bad cops. I am waiting for one single nationally known police source to condemn, for instance, the botched raid earlier this year that blew a toddler's face off with a grenade.

Over and over and over, from Serpico 40 years ago, to Smedley Butler's police state actions to clear corruption out of Philadelphia during Prohibition 40 plus years before that, police have shown repeatedly that they cannot be trusted to "police themselves".

They have now assumed a war footing against us, the police, in Utah, for instance, kill more people than drug gangs, or domestic homicide, the Circular Force Continuum gives them legal cover kill us, Civil Asset Forfeiture gives them legal cover to steal our money and possessions to directly benefit themselves.

This is NOT an image of a free society:

----------


## green73

> I believe that most people are inherently good.  But we're also inherently herd-like.  History has proven that those who would oppress good people, though few and far between, are able to do so because of our herd mentality.  The sociopaths among us know this and know how to manipulate us.  My point is that changing the way we organize our society isn't necessarily going to change that fact.


I think people in a statist society tend to be herd-like. I don't think it's inherent at all beyond small scale social orders. It's when we devolve into a state, this artificial organization that forces strangers together on a mass scale, that the problems really start to arise, and the sociopaths really begin to flourish. 




> That happens right now.  Small businesses go under every day due to bad reputation or bad management.  Do you think Sam Walton would be as successful as he was in a truly free market?


It happens to a far larger degree thanks to onerous regulations and taxes. Many of these things are intentional to protect the elite, government-connected types.

----------


## invisible

Grand Jury witness murdered.  Haven't seen very much on this story, and I don't believe this has been posted here yet:

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/...-browns-death/



> Several of the eye-witnesses, who gave honest testimony to the Grand Jury, were, according to their own statements, warned immediately after the shooting to keep their mouths shut.   All of the eye-witnesses were African American.  If you read the reports the sense of fear about speaking the truth is overwhelming.  
> 
> Many, if not all, of the witness statements outlined in police reports, FBI reports, and later in Grand Jury testimony -who testified to the factual events as outlined by officer Wilson, and whose testimony fit the physical and forensic evidence- were threatened by the local Canfield Greens community.
> 
> (Via Daily Mail) A man has died during the Ferguson riots just yards from where Michael Brown was shot dead.  Residents on Canfield Drive said that DeAndre Joshua, 20, was shot whilst in his car though police at the scene refused to confirm any details.


http://beforeitsnews.com/opinion-con...a-2940132.html



> First Pro-Truth Grand Jury Witness Murdered? DeAndre Joshua, 20, found dead yards from scene of Michael Brown’s death..
> DeAndre Joshua, 20, fits the social profile of an eye-witness who gave a police/FBI statement and testified before the Grand Jury in the Mike Brown shooting case.   He was an employed black male, with no history of drug use or illicit behavior. He was also a friend of Dorian Johnson who is currently under protection.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...d-carnage.html



> St Louis' police chief, Jon Belmar, was asked if the killing was linked to the unrest.
> 
> 'I imagine there is a nexus,' he responded

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> it calls for either or both.  It might not be what we have, but that's what it calls for.
> 
> To address an earlier point, consistency is working very well for me.  We don't really know what transpired that day because eyewitness accounts differ dramatically.  It was likely more than hitting a cop, and Darren Wilson wasn't the first person Brown hit that day, now, was he?  At what point does someone who takes what he wants by violence get stopped?
> 
> I think a lot of people drink the kool-aide and make the leap that all cops are bad because of the racial component here.  Does anyone know the statistics of blacks (because that's what we're talking about here) killing other blacks?  Whites killing other whites?   Why is Michael Brown such a special case?  Do police not ever shoot white people?  Sounds like a little too much mainstream media to me.  The rioting this week is nothing more than the result of media creating news, instead of simply reporting it.


OK so the Constitution calls for either an objective Jury or an Objective Judge.  Where does it call for an objective police?

----------


## aGameOfThrones

> it calls for either or both.  It might not be what we have, but that's what it calls for.
> 
> To address an earlier point, consistency is working very well for me.  We don't really know what transpired that day because eyewitness accounts differ dramatically.  It was likely more than hitting a cop, and Darren Wilson wasn't the first person Brown hit that day, now, was he?  At what point does someone who takes what he wants by violence get stopped?
> 
> I think a lot of people drink the kool-aide and make the leap that all cops are bad because of the racial component here.  Does anyone know the statistics of blacks (because that's what we're talking about here) killing other blacks?  Whites killing other whites?   Why is Michael Brown such a special case?  Do police not ever shoot white people?  Sounds like a little too much mainstream media to me.  The rioting this week is nothing more than the result of media creating news, instead of simply reporting it.

----------


## otherone

> They have now assumed a war footing against us, the police, in Utah, for instance, kill more people than drug gangs, or domestic homicide, the Circular Force Continuum gives them legal cover kill us, Civil Asset Forfeiture gives them legal cover to steal our money and possessions to directly benefit themselves.


Fear is viagra for the state.

When Americans are more afraid of this guy:



than this guy:



...things might change.

----------


## Anti Federalist

From another thread:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And what I have been bitching and hollering about now for YEARS...

*The Circular Force Continuum.*




> <snip>
> 
>  ‘Officers may use any force available’
> 
> The Peace Officer Standards and Training (POST) division of the Utah Department of Safety oversees, directly or indirectly, the basic training of all police recruits in Utah. At its four-month academy, cadets are introduced to the use-of-force continuum, a diagram showing officer force options — simply showing up at the scene; verbal commands, touching or holding a subject, pepper spray, police dogs, baton, Taser, or deadly force —* arrayed in a circle for the officer’s selection.*
> 
> *"Officers may use any force available provided they can justify the reasonableness of force used," the manual states.*
> 
> Adams maintains that officers in Utah typically use less force than may be justified.
> ...


Just so everybody is clear on this:

The CFC maintains that a cop can use whatever force he deems reasonable to ensure his safety, including deadly force.

*What that means in the real world is a cop can blow you away for twitching funny, making "furtive movements" or "menacing staring".*

And the "reasonableness" of his action will be determined by...fellow cops.

*Which is why, after years and hundreds of shootings in one sparsely populated state, ONLY ONE was ever determined to be "unreasonable".*

Treat every encounter with a cop as potentially life threatening one, and avoid these criminal lunatics at all costs.

----------


## Deborah K

> I think people in a statist society tend to be herd-like. I don't think it's inherent at all beyond small scale social orders. It's when we devolve into a state, this artificial organization that forces strangers together on a mass scale, that the problems really start to arise, and the sociopaths really begin to flourish. 
> 
> 
> 
> It happens to a far larger degree thanks to onerous regulations and taxes. Many of these things are intentional to protect the elite, government-connected types.


I disagree.  Have you read any ancient texts lately?  Herd mentality is definitely inherent in humans - as a whole.  The lone wolf is the exception, not the rule.

----------


## Anti Federalist

Of course, I fear A a great deal more than B.

I can defend myself against B, were he to show hostile intentions, which is not given, where it is a pretty sure thing when dealing with A.

A can round up a bunch of his buddies, roll onto my property with tanks and grenades and automatic weapons, and if I dared to lift a finger against them, they would have the legal authority and protection from the Just Us system to blow me and my kids and my dog away and then blow my house up, and get away with it.







> Fear is viagra for the state.
> 
> When Americans are more afraid of this guy:
> 
> 
> 
> than this guy:
> 
> 
> ...

----------


## orenbus



----------


## green73

> I disagree.  Have you read any ancient texts lately?  Herd mentality is definitely inherent in humans - as a whole.  The lone wolf is the exception, not the rule.


Are you aware of the advances in philosophy and human thought since those times? It's pretty obvious the extent of your libertarian reading.

----------


## Occam's Banana

> Originally Posted by tobismom
> 
> 
> I think a lot of people drink the kool-aide and  make the leap that all cops are bad because of the racial component  here.
> 
> 
> No, I make that leap because:
> 
> A - They are serving to enforce the laws of a corrupt and tyrannical state.
> ...


One could actually make a case that there were more "good" Nazis in Germany than there are "good" cops in America. Nazi party members like Oskar Schindler and John Rabe actually DID something to combat and ameliorate the injustices they witnessed. How many of the supposedly "good" cops in America do any such thing? AF mentioned Frank Serpico. I would nominate Regina Tasca.

But as the cases of Serpico and Tasca demonstrate, genuinely "good" cops don't get to stay cops for very long. The system just won't tolerate them. So we end up in a situation where a cop is supposed to be considered to be "good" merely because he doesn't actively participate in the gratuitous and egregious abuse of other people who are not cops. But that's a load of bull$#@! - it's like saying someone was a "good" Nazi just because he didn't personally kill any Jews. It's an insult to the memory of men like Schindler and Rabe, and it's a slap in the face of cops like Serpico and Tasca.

----------


## GunnyFreedom

> One could actually make a case that there were more "good" Nazis in Germany than there are "good" cops in America. Nazi party members like Oskar Schindler and John Rabe actually DID something to combat and ameliorate the injustices they witnessed. How many of the supposedly "good" cops in America do any such thing? AF mentioned Frank Serpico. I would nominate Regina Tasca.
> 
> But as the cases of Serpico and Tasca demonstrate, genuinely "good" cops don't get to stay cops for very long. The system just won't tolerate them. So we end up in a situation where a cop is supposed to be considered to be "good" merely because he doesn't actively participate in the gratuitous and egregious abuse of other people who are not cops. But that's a load of bull$#@! - it's like saying someone was a "good" Nazi just because he didn't personally kill any Jews. It's an insult to the memory of men like Schindler and Rabe, and it's a slap in the face of cops like Serpico and Tasca.


Sheriff Brad Rogers

----------


## Anti Federalist

> One could actually make a case that there were more "good" Nazis in Germany than there are "good" cops in America. Nazi party members like Oskar Schindler and John Rabe actually DID something to combat and ameliorate the injustices they witnessed. How many of the supposedly "good" cops in America do any such thing? AF mentioned Frank Serpico. I would nominate Regina Tasca.
> 
> But as the cases of Serpico and Tasca demonstrate, genuinely "good" cops don't get to stay cops for very long. The system just won't tolerate them. So we end up in a situation where a cop is supposed to be considered to be "good" merely because he doesn't actively participate in the gratuitous and egregious abuse of other people who are not cops. But that's a load of bull$#@! - it's like saying someone was a "good" Nazi just because he didn't personally kill any Jews. It's an insult to the memory of men like Schindler and Rabe, and it's a slap in the face of cops like Serpico and Tasca.


Add Helmuth Hubener and August Landmesser to that list.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Landmesser
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmuth_H%C3%BCbener

----------


## brushfire

> Are you aware of the advances in philosophy and human thought since those times? It's pretty obvious the extent of your libertarian reading.


Milgram demonstrated pretty well how tribal people are, once they have established a "leader" or point of authority.  We see it all the time, which is why collectivism is so natural for so many.  People's "tribal" nature really comes out on the internet too.

Not to pick sides, as I feel compelled to be accepted by both of you (tribe gene), but most people have the "tribe gene" - and bad.  Think about every time you've heard "lesser evil" - that's the tribe gene talking.  How about santorum leading the pack in Iowa - tribe gene again.

----------


## green73

> Milgram demonstrated pretty well how tribal people are, once they have established a "leader" or point of authority.  We see it all the time, which is why collectivism is so natural for so many.  People's "tribal" nature really comes out on the internet too.
> 
> Not to pick sides, as I feel compelled to be accepted by both of you (tribe gene), but most people have the "tribe gene" - and bad.  Think about every time you've heard "lesser evil" - that's the tribe gene talking.  How about santorum leading the pack in Iowa - tribe gene again.


Yes, but as I said earlier, it becomes unnatural and artificial when our social organization devolves into a state, forcing strangers together on a mass scale.

----------


## invisible

> One could actually make a case that there were more "good" Nazis in Germany than there are "good" cops in America. Nazi party members like Oskar Schindler and John Rabe actually DID something to combat and ameliorate the injustices they witnessed. How many of the supposedly "good" cops in America do any such thing? AF mentioned Frank Serpico. I would nominate Regina Tasca.
> 
> But as the cases of Serpico and Tasca demonstrate, genuinely "good" cops don't get to stay cops for very long. The system just won't tolerate them. So we end up in a situation where a cop is supposed to be considered to be "good" merely because he doesn't actively participate in the gratuitous and egregious abuse of other people who are not cops. But that's a load of bull$#@! - it's like saying someone was a "good" Nazi just because he didn't personally kill any Jews. It's an insult to the memory of men like Schindler and Rabe, and it's a slap in the face of cops like Serpico and Tasca.


Don't forget to also add Terry Yeakey

http://therundownlive.com/terrance-yeakey/



> Terrance Yeakey was an Oklahoma City Police Officer, first responder to the OKC bombing, and an American hero. Officer Yeakey, known to friends as Terry, saved the lives of eight people on the morning of April 19, 1995 from the Alfred P. Murrah building.





> No one is quite sure what Terry actually observed at the Murrah building directly after the explosion that killed 168 people including 19 children. Whatever it was he witnessed apparently did not sync up with the official narrative released by the United States government according to all indications.
> 
> Officer Yeakey was compiling evidence and storing the information at a local storage unit. This evidence was in contradiction to what was being reported as the facts of the case. According to friends and family, Terry was being intimidated by federal authorities to put an end to his independent investigation.
> 
> His last known words were “As soon as I shake these Feds that are following me, I’ll be back and we’ll go to dinner.” Terry never came back.


http://www.okcbombing.net/News%20Art...key_murder.htm



> Within two minutes Oklahoma City police officer Terrance Yeakey was at the Murrah Building. By all accounts he was among the first uniformed OCPD units to arrive. As he'd gotten closer he saw massive damage: blown out windows, demolished and burning vehicles, collapsed buildings and injury and death were seemingly everywhere along both sides of the 200 block of NW 5th St. Disregarding their own safety from falling debris, Yeakey, fellow officer Gordon Martin, Dr. Donald Chumley and several others, began getting the Murrah Building's badly injured to safety.





> Many very troubling questions about this "bombing," at least in Terry Yeakey's mind, needed answers. While they wanted to admit him to the hospital, he'd have nothing to do with it. Soon he called, Tonia, his wife to come and pick him up. After she arrived, he worriedly told her when they got in the car, "It's not what they're saying it is, Tonia. It's not what they're saying it is. It's all a lie. It's all a lie." From that time on, according to Tonia Yeakey, his entire demeanor changed greatly. In little over a years' time, Yeakey was dead. The official cause was listed as "suicide





> If his death had been a suicide, none of the forensic evidence supported such a conclusion. On the other hand, what the forensic evidence clearly showed was this: He'd been handcuffed, hog-tied, dragged and brutally beaten. His wrists, arms and throat were slashed, and then he'd been shot in the head - execution style. Blood, which was not his, was also found on his shirt. The question must now be asked: Why was he brutally murdered? The answer is: To make an example out of him. Because Terry Yeakey refused to change certain facts in his original nine-page written report on the bombing, and he kept demanding answers to too many questions.


http://www.okcbombing.net/News%20Articles/yeakey_2.htm



> Highlights from his letter follow:
> 
> The man that you and I were talking about in the pictures I have made the mistake of asking too many questions as to his role in the bombing and was told to back off...
> 
> I was told by several officers he was a ATF agent who was overseeing the bombing plot and at the time the photos were taken he was calling in his report of what had just went down!
> 
> Knowing what I know now and understanding fully just what went down that morning makes me ashamed to wear a badge from Oklahoma City's Police Department. I took an oath to uphold the law and to enforce the law to the best of my ability. This is something I cannot honestly do and hold my head up proud any longer if I keep my silence as I am ordered to do...
> 
> The sad truth of the matter is that they have so many police officers convinced that by covering up the truth about the operation gone wrong, that they are actually doing our citizens a favor. What I want to know is how many other operations have they had that blew up in their faces? Makes you stop and take another look at Waco...
> ...


http://www.okcbombing.net/News%20Art...udenslager.htm



> In an effort to cover up Mike Loudenslager's murder and to intimidate others who were there early-on that morning, someone has taken out a number of internal witnesses. Dr. Don Chumley AND Terry Yeakey, both, besides being at the Murrah Building that morning, shared one other commonality. Each at the time of his "death" was attempting to deliver EVIDENCE concerning the fact Mike Loudenslager was alive and well AFTER the bombing, and also to get certain other facts out about the "bombing" as well.
> 
> In Terry Yeakey's case he thought he was delivering evidence and information to a multi-county task force who would help get the truth out. That's how he was set-up.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

It is disturbing that alleged libertarians are lining up behind either Brown or Wilson, behind either the rabble or the police. 

Brown was a criminal who lived on other people's taxes; so was Wilson. 

The rabble rioted and looted and pillaged, as is their wont; the police failed to shoot them before they had that chance. 

So it seems to me that the only rational response is to adopt an attitude of contempt and hatred toward all parties concerned.

----------


## orenbus

Making a note of this stream here just in case for later.

http://m.ustream.tv/channel/stackizshort

----------


## orenbus

Mass arrests (~100-200) in Los Angeles, police declare march unlawful assembly everyone is being arrested, looks like they will be getting bread and water for thanksgiving.

Local stream from the street;
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/pmbeers

----------


## orenbus

In London:

----------


## orenbus

> Do you have a stream for Oakland?


Can't find a decent one.

----------


## ord33

> Do you have a stream for Oakland?


It wasn't a cop car that was torched. It was someone's vehicle on the highway. I don't know the details of who/why they did it since it is only a helicopter feed. But they broke down a fence, then rode on the railroad, went to a railroad crossing and several cars were able to get out. Eventually the cops smarted up and figured it out and blocked the railroad crossing and have it blocked now. Cops are starting to approach the burning car cautiously.

Here is a live helicopter feed: http://abc7news.com/live/

----------


## invisible

Thanks, guys!  Hopefully it'll work for me.

----------


## orenbus



----------


## Ender

> You are dead wrong on this. It is NOT the purpose of the grand jury process to "prove" anything (with or without "science").
> 
> Had Darren Wilson NOT been a cop, he WOULD have been indicted - and he would have been indicted on EXACTLY the same evidence.
> 
> The ONLY reason he was NOT indicted is because he is a cop - and because of that, the prosecutors did not want an indictment.
> 
> And NONE of this has anything to do with whether Wilson is actually guilty of anything.
> 
> It has everything to do with the fact that cops are a priveleged caste.


AMEN, BRO.

----------


## jmdrake

> Here, take five minutes and read this:
> 
> http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...-privilege-%94


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Anti Federalist again.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> You are dead wrong on this. It is NOT the purpose of the grand jury process to "prove" anything (with or without "science").
> 
> Had Darren Wilson NOT been a cop, he WOULD have been indicted - and he would have been indicted on EXACTLY the same evidence.
> 
> The ONLY reason he was NOT indicted is because he is a cop - and because of that, the prosecutors did not want an indictment.
> 
> And NONE of this has anything to do with whether Wilson is actually guilty of anything.
> 
> It has everything to do with the fact that cops are a priveleged caste.


That.

Somebody rep Teh Banana for me, I'm out.

----------


## euphemia

It is not the grand jury's role to determine guilt or innocence.  It is the gj's job to look at the evendence to see if there is enough to charge someone with a crime.  The evidence simply isn't there.

----------


## AuH20

> You are dead wrong on this. It is NOT the purpose of the grand jury process to "prove" anything (with or without "science").
> 
> Had Darren Wilson NOT been a cop, he WOULD have been indicted - and he would have been indicted on EXACTLY the same evidence.
> 
> The ONLY reason he was NOT indicted is because he is a cop - and because of that, the prosecutors did not want an indictment.
> 
> And NONE of this has anything to do with whether Wilson is actually guilty of anything.
> 
> It has everything to do with the fact that cops are a priveleged caste.


Cops are certainly a privileged caste and by the same token, african americans are as well. You can't even think about touching the hair on their head in this racially polarized climate. You better lawyer up, even in the event that you are defending your property, because it will be twisted as some sort of racial vendetta. It always is.

----------


## otherone

> It is not the grand jury's role to determine guilt or innocence.  It i sthe gj's job to look at the evendence to see if there is enough to charge someone with a crime. _ The evidence simply isn't there._


Do you believe everything the government tells you?

----------


## otherone

> Cops are certainly a privileged caste and by the same token, african americans are as well.

----------


## AuH20

> 


Think about. Imagine being able to project every personal mistake as a greater conspiracy against your skin color. I can't think of a more privileged position to be absolved of personal, conscious wrongdoing due to past events. Now I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist because it does, but the hand wringing has gotten to the point of ridiculousness. It's very similar to the jewish american community that hides behind the Holocaust when confronted with serious questions about their ethical direction.

----------


## orenbus

> It wasn't a cop car that was torched. It was someone's vehicle on the highway. I don't know the details of who/why they did it since it is only a helicopter feed. But they broke down a fence, then rode on the railroad, went to a railroad crossing and several cars were able to get out. Eventually the cops smarted up and figured it out and blocked the railroad crossing and have it blocked now. Cops are starting to approach the burning car cautiously.
> 
> Here is a live helicopter feed: http://abc7news.com/live/


Video of the oakland #sideshow last night, part with the van is at around 3:45

----------


## orenbus

> You are dead wrong on this. It is NOT the purpose of the grand jury process to "prove" anything (with or without "science").
> 
> Had Darren Wilson NOT been a cop, he WOULD have been indicted - and he would have been indicted on EXACTLY the same evidence.
> 
> The ONLY reason he was NOT indicted is because he is a cop - and because of that, the prosecutors did not want an indictment.
> 
> And NONE of this has anything to do with whether Wilson is actually guilty of anything.
> 
> It has everything to do with the fact that cops are a priveleged caste.


Agreed. +Rep

----------


## Ender

> It is not the grand jury's role to determine guilt or innocence.  It i sthe gj's job to look at the evendence to see if there is enough to charge someone with a crime.  The evidence simply isn't there.


BS- and the GJ is unconstitutional.

----------


## Ender

> Think about. Imagine being able to project every personal mistake as a greater conspiracy against your skin color. I can't think of a more privileged position to be absolved of personal, conscious wrongdoing due to past events. Now I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist because it does, but the hand wringing has gotten to the point of ridiculousness. It's very similar to the jewish american community that hides behind the Holocaust when confronted with serious questions about their ethical direction.


Really.

Try being black for a while.

----------


## Occam's Banana

> It is not the grand jury's role to determine guilt or innocence.  It i sthe gj's job to look at the evendence to see if there is enough to charge someone with a crime.  The evidence simply isn't there.


You are simply wrong. There is an abundance of sufficient cause for a jury trial in this case. Any of a number of things (the witness accounts, the problematic & conflicting forensics, etc.) would have sufficed to secure a jury trial to sort things out - IF the prosecution had actually wanted one. But the prosecution did NOT want one (because Darren Wilson is a cop) - and that is precisely why they chose to go the "grand jury" route in this case, rather than just file charges and go the "pre-trial hearing" route.

If the prosecutors had directly charged Darren Wilson without a grand jury indictment (as they easily could have done, if they had wanted to), there would have been a pre-trial hearing to determine whether there was sufficient reason to have a trial or not. But the prosecutors did not want that, because they did not want a trial and they knew that any pre-trial hearing judge would all but certainly have ruled that there was sufficient cause for the matter to go to trial. So they took the matter to the grand jury instead, where they knew they would completely control the presentation of all evidence and testimony and therefore could get what they wanted - a "no true bill" decision (which is exactly what they got).

As has been pointed out over and over over, grand juries are rubber stamps for prosecutors. With exceedingly rare exceptions, grand juries give prosecutors what prosecutors want. If a prosecutor wants an indictment, then he gets one. If he doesn't want one (but pretends to try to get one for the sake of public appearances), then he doesn't get one.

Given the murky particulars of this case, if you or I (or anyone else who is not a cop) were in Darren Wilson's  place, there is no way in hell that there isn't sufficient reason for a  jury trial to sort the matter out. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar  or a fool.

----------


## orenbus

Some of this thread's demagogue posters just reminded me of this movie dinner scene, happy thanksgiving.

----------


## NIU Students for Liberty

> Michael Brown was a thug.  He was a dangerous man.  He was not a victim or a martyr.  He was a perpetrator.  
> 
> The mentality displayed in this thread is helping nobody.  Believing the media hype is helping nobody.  The media made a lot of assumptions.  The facts and forensics did not match those assumptions.


Then put the "thug" on trial before executing him.  Oh wait...

----------


## NIU Students for Liberty

> Really.
> 
> Try being black for a while.


But white men have it so difficult!

https://screen.yahoo.com/white-000000112.html

----------


## Anti Federalist

> You are simply wrong.


I hate to play pile on, but this could go on all day.


*Officer states they shot him because “he was just $#@!’in laying there and wouldn’t do nothin”.*

Shot him 23 times.

No indictment.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...xt-to-Sidewalk

----------


## Anti Federalist

Two innocent women delivering newspapers.

Shot at 129 times.

*No Indictment.*

Just secret "in house" discipline.

----------


## Ender

> But white men have it so difficult!
> 
> https://screen.yahoo.com/white-000000112.html


LOL!

----------


## Anti Federalist

*Grand Juries Almost Never Indict Police Officers Who Kill Citizens*

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/gra...PBvJ785FZq5.99

The failure of the St. Louis County grand jury to hand down an indictment against the officer who fatally shot unarmed teenager Michael Brown caused uproar and protest, but law enforcement experts say that indictments against police officers are rare.

The perceived lack of indictment of police by grand juries could be due to multiple reasons, including a Supreme Court decision in a case involving orange juice, as well as the complex relationships between police departments and district attorneys.

*There have been close to 1,000 people killed by police since January 1, 2014, and over 1,750 since May 2013, according to the website FiveThirtyEight.*

Against those figures is data from the FBI Crime Reports – based on police departments’ own records – which say that of the 533,895 police officers hired to protect and serve 247 million Americans, 27 officers died in 2013 in the line of duty. In 26 cases, those deaths were caused by males. Fifteen of the men were white, 11 were black, and all had criminal records.

Missing from official records, though, is how many police officers were indicted for excessive force. An independent study in 2010 by researcher David Packman showed 4,841 reports of police misconduct involving 6,613 police officers. Of those misconduct complaints, 3,238 resulted in charges being made, but only 33 percent were convicted and 12 percent incarcerated.

The low number of convictions and incarcerations result in part from a 1989 Supreme Court case involving a diabetic man’s erratic behavior during a trip to a convenience store for orange juice. He needed the beverage to bring up his low blood sugar, but the trip led to a confrontation with police officers, which left him with injuries from head to foot.

*In Graham v. Connor, Chief Justice William Rehnquist wrote in his opinion: “The ‘reasonableness’ of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, rather than with the 20/20 vision of hindsight.”*

(Couple that with the CFC and military ROE and now you know why cops will blow you away for twitching funny. - AF)

Rehnquist’s ruling that police can make such determinations quickly took on added significance in the Brown case, particularly since the situation leading up to his death unfolded in approximately 90 seconds. Those skeptical of Rehnquist’s judgment question just how far the justice system should defer to a police officer’s judgment.

Community activists involved in efforts to curb police brutality often state that there isn’t a fair judicial process because the district attorneys usually have close relationships with police departments, making a fair trial impossible. Such points were echoed during the Brown family press conference in Dellwood, near Ferguson, on Tuesday morning.

“We saw how completely unfair this process was. We object properly and loudly on behalf of Michael Brown and his family that this process is broken. The process should be indicted,” Brown family attorney Benjamin Crump told reporters.

“It should be indicted because the continuous, systematic results that is yielded by this process,” Crump added. “And let’s be very honest about this process. We have the local prosecutor who has a symbiotic relationship with the local police, and the local police officers who sit in judgment whether to indict the police when they brutalize or kill a young person from our community, and normally that prosecutor has no relationship or no regards for the young person of color.”

Criminal defense and civil rights attorney Ron Kuby told the Latin Post that the only way for police to be held accountable for crimes they commit against the citizenry is through “an independent statewide prosecutor for police misconduct…that’s the only way you will get police accountability, because local district attorneys are locally elected, they frequently rely on many of the same police officers who are investigating other police officers, and they are very reluctant as a rule to second guess the police involving line of duty killings. Sometimes they won’t even present the case to a grand jury.”

----------


## AuH20

> Really.
> 
> Try being black for a while.


As if human beings don't discriminate for appearance outside of skin color. Gimme a break. You think a short white person lives a charmed life?

----------


## Henry Rogue

> As if human beings don't discriminate for appearance outside of skin color. Gimme a break. You think a short white person lives a charmed life?


Don't bring Collins into this.

----------


## Anti Federalist

> Don't bring Collins into this.

----------


## AuH20

This was actually circulated. ROFL

http://www.infowars.com/rules-for-white-useful-idiots/

----------


## euphemia

> Do you believe everything the government tells you?


Not even a little bit, and I don't believe everything I read on internet forums, either.

----------


## NIU Students for Liberty

> As if human beings don't discriminate for appearance outside of skin color. Gimme a break. You think a short white person lives a charmed life?


Did you really just compare the treatment of short people verses black people?

----------


## specsaregood

> Really.
> Try being black for a while.


And this comment is obviously based on your own extensive experience being black?

----------


## Southron

> And this comment is obviously based on your own extensive experience being black?


Perhaps he is like Obama and knows what it's like to be black and white.

----------


## orenbus



----------


## Ender

> And this comment is obviously based on your own extensive experience being black?


I'm Cherokee/Scot with some black mixed in. I don't look black- or even Indian- because I am blonde. The only people who usually notice are Latinos. 

That said, I have been among blacks all my life; I have seen how friends have been treated, their pain and frustration. I have especially seen how they are treated by police, simply because they are black. It's a continual tightrope, just to live from day-to-day.

----------


## puppetmaster

> *Grand Juries Almost Never Indict Police Officers Who Kill Citizens*
> 
> http://thefreethoughtproject.com/gra...PBvJ785FZq5.99
> 
> The failure of the St. Louis County grand jury to hand down an indictment against the officer who fatally shot unarmed teenager Michael Brown caused uproar and protest, but law enforcement experts say that indictments against police officers are rare.
> 
> The perceived lack of indictment of police by grand juries could be due to multiple reasons, including a Supreme Court decision in a case involving orange juice, as well as the complex relationships between police departments and district attorneys.
> 
> *There have been close to 1,000 people killed by police since January 1, 2014, and over 1,750 since May 2013, according to the website FiveThirtyEight.*
> ...


  This is where the problem is I feel.

----------


## AuH20

This is what is wrong with the human race. 

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywo...ng-For-Trouble

Just because he's black, Pharrell Williams has suspend his thought process to swallow the Michael Brown lie? And the same thing would apply to the white people who have somehow made Wilson into some hero, when he is not. I'm white and I would never wear a t-shirt supporting Darren Wilson. No way in hell.

----------


## r3volution 3.0

> That's a pretty black and white way of viewing things. You don't have to condone looting or destruction of property to also understand where the anger and frustration is coming from, or that these protests are much bigger than simply the Michael Brown case. It's a nationwide demonstration against police injustice and the unfortunate power vested in authority where they can clear a cop of wrongdoing through manipulation.


No it isn't. 

First, it's rioting and looting for the fun and profit of it, merely using the Brown case as an excuse.

Second, it's pro "social justice" activism (aka socialist agitation), merely using the Brown case as an excuse.

I doubt that 1 in 10 expressing strong feelings about this actually care whether Wilson murdered Brown. 

This is what usually happens with these highly publicized cases; they become mere slogans in a larger social conflict.

A famous historical parallel would be the Dreyfus Affair (which had very little to do with Alfred Dreyfus).

----------


## Deborah K

> Are you aware of the advances in philosophy and human thought since those times? It's pretty obvious the extent of your libertarian reading.


Yes, I'm aware.  The point I was making is that the herd mentality is just as alive and well now as it was then. You admitted it yourself.

----------


## SeanTX

http://www.kmov.com/news/editors-pic...#ixzz3KNkBBTQO




> *Pregnant woman loses eye after police shoot bean bag at her*
> 
> by Adam McDonald / KMOV.com staff
> 
> KMOV.com
> 
> Posted on November 27, 2014 at 6:46 PM
> 
> FERGUSON, Mo. (KMOV.com) -- This St. Louis woman’s picture and story has spread through social media, she’s now ready to talk about what happened to her shortly after the grand jury announcement was made in the death of Michael Brown.  
> ...

----------


## specsaregood

> I'm Cherokee/Scot with some black mixed in. I don't look black- or even Indian- because I am blonde. The only people who usually notice are Latinos. 
> 
> --snip some blah blah blah about having black friends--


So that's a no.   Being a white man, I think I'll take your recommendation and recollection of experiences being a black with a healthy dose of salt.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> It is disturbing that alleged libertarians are lining up behind either Brown or Wilson, behind either the rabble or the police. 
> 
> Brown was a criminal who lived on other people's taxes; so was Wilson. 
> 
> The rabble rioted and looted and pillaged, as is their wont; the police failed to shoot them before they had that chance. 
> 
> So it seems to me that the only rational response is to adopt an attitude of contempt and hatred toward all parties concerned.


Wilson is a cop, and I don't like cops.  I've been on the record for saying that many times, so I didn't feel obligated to say it again.  

The only thing that I was interested in, in this instance, was whether Wilson was justified IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE.  That wouldn't justify his career.



> That's a pretty black and white way of viewing things. You don't have to condone looting or destruction of property to also understand where the anger and frustration is coming from, or that these protests are much bigger than simply the Michael Brown case. It's a nationwide demonstration against police injustice and the unfortunate power vested in authority where they can clear a cop of wrongdoing through manipulation.


Only moronic thugs would riot by destroying private businesses, no matter how wrong Wilson was.  It doesn't matter.



> This is why I am a staunch advocate of peaceful secession - or at least, as peaceful as TPTB may be constrained by circumstance to permit. (I'm thinking along the lines of the relatively non-violent "collapse" of the Soviet Union here ...)
> 
> If society were to violently or catastrophically "collapse" any time soon, I don't expect that whatever system replaced it - whether "anarchic" or "statist" - would be much of an improvement. Both "constitutionalism" and "anarchism" are in the same boat together - they both require a number of cultural traits (and ideals that are at least implicitly embodied in the minds of "the people") that just aren't sufficiently widespread in today's society.


True.

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## Ender

> So that's a no.   Being a white man, I think I'll take your recommendation and recollection of experiences being a black with a healthy dose of salt.


Well, as you know all- go for it.

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## orenbus



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## orenbus



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## devil21

Looks like cops or military or similarly uniformed hut-hut types were responsible for at least some of the fires.

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## Weston White

So according to the below chart and the story as unfolded by Mr. Wilson’s account, the flow of evidence seems to further show that the official narrative is a fabrication.

Putting all of the running and driving back and forth stuff aside, Brown’s corpse ended up over 150-feet from the initial point of contact within a timeframe of less than 2-minutes.  More concerning however, is the large spread of bullet casings throughout the crime-scene, approximating a 20-foot southward spread and a 177-foot westward spread.  Thus indicating that this solo officer who was in such fear of his life that one more jab to the face would put him down for the count was in fact actively pursuing Brown and not only that but discharging his firearm using multiple small groups while doing so, e.g., 4-rounds at a respective distance of 30-feet, 3-rounds at 40-feet, 3-rounds at 50-feet, and the initial 2-rounds at around 200-feet.  Is it just a coincidence that he just so happened to fire as many rounds as his firearm holds in one magazine?


Also, it might be pointed out that the whole Brown had charged Wilson like an NFL linebacker, with all the speed of an agile gazelle, could easily be taken out of context by the official narrative.  Meaning that the angle of entry-exit wounds could be attributed not to Brown leaning in to charge down Wilson, but as a desperate means of either absorbing the recoil of being relentlessly struck by a score of bullets or in effort to remain standing as certain death loomed mere feet away until he was so weakened he finally came crashing down straight onto his face—a man on the verge of passing out and very likely experiencing loss of bodily function (probably only stumbling around at this point in a semi-conscious state), due to being blasted like slab of Swiss versus a man operating in a clear state of panic and overreaction, literally envisioning himself participating in a demon chase.

Further, don’t most people wait to lean in for a tackle until only a few feet remains before contact will be made, so exactly how close was Wilson to Brown while all of this running around was taking place?

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## ChristianAnarchist

Video removed by user.  Anyone else have it??




> Looks like cops or military or similarly uniformed hut-hut types were responsible for at least some of the fires.

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## Lucille

> So according to the below chart and the story as unfolded by Mr. Wilson’s account, the flow of evidence seems to further show that the official narrative is a fabrication.
> 
> Putting all of the running and driving back and forth stuff aside, Brown’s corpse ended up over 150-feet from the initial point of contact within a timeframe of less than 2-minutes.  More concerning however, is the large spread in bullet casings throughout the crime-scene, approximating a 20-foot southward spread and a 177-foot westward spread.  Thus indicating that this solo officer who was in such fear of his life that one more jab to the face would put him down for the count was in fact actively pursuing him and not only that but discharging his firearm using multiple small groups while doing so, e.g., 4-rounds at a respective distance of 30-feet, 3-rounds at 40-feet, 3-rounds at 50-feet, and the initial 2-rounds at around 200-feet.  Is it just a coincidence that he fired happened to fire just about as many rounds as his firearm holds in one magazine?
> 
> 
> *Also, it might be pointed out that the whole Brown had charged Wilson like an NFL linebacker, with all the speed of an agile gazelle, could easily be taken out of context by the official narrative.  Meaning that the angle of entry-exit wounds could be attributed not to Brown leaning in to charge down Wilson, but as a desperate means of either absorbing the recoil of being relentlessly struck by a score of bullets or in effort to remain standing as certain death loomed mere feet away until he was so weakened he finally came crashing down straight onto his face.*
> 
> Further, don’t most people wait to lean in for a tackle until only a few feet remains before contact will be made, so exactly how close was Wilson to Brown while all of this running around was taking place?


Denninger still insists that the lack of injury from Brown's fall shows he wasn't charging Wilson.

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=229628




> It's simple folks, really.
> 
> Read the autopsy reports.  There are two published ones.
> 
> Read them in full.
> 
> Then watch the interview that Officer Wilson gave.  He described the shooting sequence in quite a bit of detail.
> 
> *The important thing to note is that he described Brown as charging him full-tilt, he shot, and Brown went down face first with his momentum throwing his feet forward up over his back.
> ...

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## Weston White

> The entirety of whether this was a justified shoot or manslaughter (or worse) turns on whether Brown was charging Wilson at the time he fired.


Not true if the initial officer's brandishing of his duty weapon, vocalized terroristic threats, and eleven prior shots (nine striking the victim) served as wanton catalysts that needlessly escalated the situation into one where Brown felt the only way to protect himself was to either disarm or subdue his attacker, in this case, a man posing as a uniformed officer of the law.

This is America, we do not have the _Staatssicherheit_ here (at least not yet); when the police command for you to lineup along the gutter in order of your height for extermination, you have every right to flee and resist that outcome.

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## CPUd

Louis Head is the stepfather of Mike Brown, he was the guy jumping on the police car saying, "Burn this motherf---er down!" and "Burn this bitch down!".




> ...
> 
> Police have not spoken to Head about his actions, but they intend to do so, Jackson said Tuesday, adding that multiple law enforcement agencies were involved in the investigation.
> 
> The police chief told TV and radio host Sean Hannity something similar Monday, but he didn't classify the probe as formal.
> 
> "We are pursuing those comments, and there's a lot of discussion going on about that right now, but I really can't get into that at this time," he said.
> 
> But police aren't singling out Head, Jackson told Hannity.
> ...


http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/02/justic...ion/index.html

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## tangent4ronpaul

> No it isn't. 
> 
> First, it's rioting and looting for the fun and profit of it, merely using the Brown case as an excuse.
> 
> Second, it's pro "social justice" activism (aka socialist agitation), merely using the Brown case as an excuse.
> 
> I doubt that 1 in 10 expressing strong feelings about this actually care whether Wilson murdered Brown. 
> 
> This is what usually happens with these highly publicized cases; they become mere slogans in a larger social conflict.
> ...


Brown is pretty irrelevant.  Initially, there were 24 protests scheduled across the country.  Only one was violent. The local one.  The spark.  The cops response set ppl off.  Second day - over 40, third day over 100.  In a number of these cases it was about similar murders in their area.  In the vast majority, it was about the military response of the cops.;

This really isn't about Brown on a national level/  THat was just the spark.

-t

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## XNavyNuke

Update: Ferguson prosecutor caught in lie, not all documents were released.

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local...held/20077183/




> .   The acknowledgment came after a review by KSDK found several key documents were missing from the thousands of pages released by McCulloch's office on November 24, shortly after the prosecutor announced that the grand jury had decided not to indict Ferguson Police Officer Darren Wilson.


So instead of coming out and saying the document package was incomplete, they tried to manage the narrative and got caught. Imagine that, politician lie. Yet another indication of the systemic nature of the corruption.

XNN

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## PRB

> Update: Ferguson prosecutor caught in lie, not all documents were released.
> 
> http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local...held/20077183/
> 
> 
> 
> So instead of coming out and saying the document package was incomplete, they tried to manage the narrative and got caught. Imagine that, politician lie. Yet another indication of the systemic nature of the corruption.
> 
> XNN


something tells me a grand jury will not indict him.

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## tod evans

> DOJ announces it will not file charges against Zimmerman in Martin shooting


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015...cmp=latestnews

The Justice Department announced Tuesday it will not file federal civil rights charges against George Zimmerman, the Florida man who was acquitted last year of second-degree murder for shooting Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teenager. 

“Though a comprehensive investigation found that the high standard for a federal hate crime prosecution cannot be met under the circumstances here, this young man’s premature death necessitates that we continue the dialogue and be unafraid of confronting the issues and tensions his passing brought to the surface,” Attorney General Eric Holder said in written statement. “We, as a nation, must take concrete steps to ensure that such incidents do not occur in the future.”

Thursday marks the third anniversary of Martin’s death. 

“Although we are disappointed in these findings, it has steeled our resolve to continue traveling the country with the message of the Trayvon Martin Foundation which is dedicated to protecting our youth and empowering those who demand justice and peace,” Martin’s family said in a statement following the DOJ announcement.

The decision, announced in the waning days of Holder's tenure, resolves a case that focused on self-defense gun laws and became a flashpoint in the national conversation about race two years before the Ferguson, Missouri, police shooting. 

Zimmerman has said he acted in self-defense when he shot the 17-year-old Martin during a confrontation inside a gated community in Sanford, Florida, just outside Orlando. Martin, who was black, was unarmed when he was killed. 

Once Zimmerman was acquitted of second-degree murder by a state jury in July 2013, Martin's family turned to the federal investigation in hopes that he would be held accountable for the shooting. 

That probe focused on whether the killing amounted to a federal civil rights violation, which would have required proof that it was motivated by racial animosity. Although Martin's parents have said Zimmerman initiated the fight and racially profiled Martin, the Justice Department said there was not enough evidence to bring federal civil rights charges, which would have required proof that the killing was motivated by racial animosity.

"Although the department has determined that this matter cannot be prosecuted federally, it is important to remember that this incident resulted in the tragic loss of a teenager's life," Acting Assistant Attorney General Vanita Gupta of the Civil Rights Division said in a statement.  "Our decision not to pursue federal charges does not condone the shooting that resulted in the death of Trayvon Martin and is based solely on the high legal standard applicable to these cases." 

Zimmerman did not testify at his trial, but he told investigators that he feared for his life as Martin straddled him and punched him during the fight.

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## devil21

Related:

James O'Keefe, of ACORN and vote fraud video fame, just released this Ferguson video about Al Sharpton.  Some pretty poignant statements by people close to the events.




http://projectveritas.com/posts/news...99s-lawyer-and

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## Weston White

*Shots fired at police in Ferguson - media reports*



> Published time: March 12, 2015 05:25
> 
> Protestors block a police vehicle from entering the City of Ferguson Police Department and Municipal Court parking lot in Ferguson Missouri, March 11, 2015 (Reuters / Kate Munsch)
> 
> At least two police officers have been shot during a protest outside Ferguson Police Station, according to reports by local media.
> 
>  Multiple accounts of the turmoil outside the Ferguson police station have emerged on social media.
> 
> One witness said on Twitter that a policeman had been shot in the face. 
> ...

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## devil21

^^^^^^
That is not good, no matter how you look at it.




Even if it's Ferguson fakery, it's a new level of fakery.  You can hear the bullets whizzing past.

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## JK/SEA

blow back?

2 shots, 2 down....someone is a good shot....another cop shooting at cops?

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## ChristianAnarchist

> blow back?
> 
> 2 shots, 2 down....someone is a good shot....another cop shooting at cops?


Doesn't have to be a good shot.  Cops were in a tight group.  Neither cop killed.  Looks like a couple of rounds into a crowd of cops and they each hit someone.  I thought I could hear 3 shots on the video and I'm very surprised the cops didn't open fire and kill a dozen protesters.  I'm glad they didn't...

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## devil21

Ferguson (and soon-to-be Baltimore) "protestors" pissed that they weren't paid for their services.  ACORN never went away.  No denying that minorities have a rough road at times but this staged stuff gives honest folks of all backgrounds a bad name.

http://wwww.wnd.com/2015/05/slavery-...rs-demand-pay/




> “Black Lives Matter” protesters who were apparently hired to cause a ruckus in Ferguson, Missouri, are angry because, they say, they haven’t been paid for their hard work.
> 
> So they’ve launched a #CutTheCheck hashtag on Twitter and held a sit-in at the offices of Missourians Organizing for Reform and Empowerment, or MORE – the successor group to the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or ACORN, in Missouri.
> 
> The protesters have received as much as $5,000 a month to generate civil unrest in the troubled suburb of St. Louis, according to FrontPage Mag’s Matthew Vadum.
> 
> “MORE is the re-branded Missouri branch of ACORN, which filed for bankruptcy in late 2010,” Vadum reported. “MORE and other groups supporting the Black Lives Matter movement have received millions of dollars from billionaire financier George Soros.”
> moreatlink

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