# Lifestyles & Discussion > Peace Through Religion >  God is Real, and his language is Mathematics. A Lesson from Seal of Daniel.

## chrono187

Seal of Daniel

All existence is comprised of Shape  and Matter. The physical realm, or plane, consists of only Four basic-  or rudimentary shapes. When these shapes are intertwined, we begin see  patterns and Matter- known as Archetypes. They lay the foundation for  the entire Universe outside, and within us. These basic shapes are,  simply, the Circle(O), Square(☐), Triangle(△), and Line(~). Everything  you see around you, all Matter, is made up of these shapes. This is  found in the principles of Sacred Geometry. All shapes are  mathematically connected to each other, and create some pretty  interesting patterns when placed together, in synchronicity- union.



As  you know, a Circle has 360 degrees, or points of Light. A Square has  four corners, perfect 90° angles within each corner. It also has four  sides. If you add up the corners, mathematically, it equals that of a  Circle- which is 360°. 90x4=360. Now, a triangle has only 3 corners, and  3 sides. Each of those corners are measured at 60°, if it is a perfect  triangle. 60x3=180, which is half of, and thus measurably equated to  360. Perfect Symmetry. When you start dividing, and thus multiplying the  Square, we notice some pretty interesting symbols. Ancient symbols, the  Mystery archetypes. This is the foundation of all Magic and sorcery.

The  first symbol you may notice is the Square and Compass, the Freemasonry  symbol. This is also an ancient symbol of Fertility; sexual union. The  triangle pointing up ^ represents the Yang, (Fire, Masculine) or  Creative Force within the Universe. Athame. The V represents Yin, Water,  the Divine Feminine, or Dark but receptive Force in the Universe. It is  also shaped like a cup, that which holds water, the Chalice, or Womb.  When merged, we get what can be recognized today as the international  symbol of Freemasonry; Absent the G.

What you will also notice is  how, when all these shapes are intertwined, in unison, create the  archetype of the Pentagram- or 5 pointed star. This is the 5 Points of  Light, or where spirit meets matter. These are the 5 elements- Earth,  Water, Fire, Wind, and Spirit (the mind). The Pentagram is a symbol  widely used by practitioners of the Arcane arts- you may know them as  Witches. It is interesting to note that in order to properly create this  Sigil, one would require the Square and compass. These are tools used  to create perfect Circles, and measure angles for mathematical  precision. When you illustrate, on paper or clay, the 4 universal shapes  in Unison, you have created an alchemical Mirror. You have made  matter(the paper) reflect your Light(intellect).

The mirror(the  paper) reflects the square and compass, the Very tools used in the  physical for it's inception. As above, so below. This sigil represents  the Mathematical, or Measurable Order of the Universe, the Divine. It  also illustrates the presence of Creation, or intelligent design. If we  can measure the confines, or walls that bind us to this physical realm,  we have evidence of a Creator(God). The practical probability of this  kind of structured Order, being built with the precise and  mathematically discernible design that it has, coming from some Random  happenstance, or circumstantial Big bang theory, seems Highly unlikely.  In this context, saying "God" does not exist would be akin to a Man,  having been in-fact born into captivity, going on to Proclaim, "Prisons  aren't real!" or "Prisons don't exist!". He lives in a spiritual jail,  or Plato's Cave, for he cannot see the order or Walls which bind him. He  cannot see past his own Shadow, as in Plato's allegory. So, is God a  benevolent creator, or cruel jailer? Could he be both?

One last interesting thing to point out, is that the Seal of Daniel also represents the mysteries of the Golden Ratio.

There  are only two original illustrations of Daniel's Seal known to exist, I  am in possession of One of them- along with some arcane texts explaining  the symbolism.

Thoughts?

I am asking around, seeking critique. I am looking for flaws in this theorem. What say you?

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## HVACTech

> I am looking for flaws in this theorem.


yeah, you and everyone else for like 100 years.

first, you will need a grand unified theory. 
(combining Quantum physics with relativity)
and then your math will work for you.  

or,
you could just ask HB!

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## Sola_Fide

The reason that these kind of theories don't "prove God" is: what God does it prove?  A Christian can never use something like this to prove that Jesus is God because 1. It doesn't prove that Jesus is God, and 2.  A Christian believes Jesus is God because God revealed it to him in the Bible.  There is no higher reason to believe that God exists than Him actually telling you that He exists.   A Christian's starting point for knowledge is the Scriptures themselves.

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## CPUd



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## asurfaholic

Sounds a lot like you are digging a god hole, then searching for God in it.

I'd say his language is love.

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## Crashland

> The practical probability of this  kind of structured Order, being built with the precise and  mathematically discernible design that it has, coming from some Random  happenstance, or circumstantial Big bang theory, seems Highly unlikely.  In this context, saying "God" does not exist would be akin to a Man,  having been in-fact born into captivity, going on to Proclaim, "Prisons  aren't real!" or "Prisons don't exist!".


No. Two problems with this. Firstly, saying that the "universe" (not God) doesn't exist would be akin to a man born into captivity proclaiming that prisons aren't real. Secondly, you are assuming that the man born into captivity actually knows that he is being held captive, and thus would have a reason to refer to it as a "prison", as opposed to just "walls". It would be more analogous to consider a man born into a "Holodeck" as described in _Star Trek_. There would be no reason for the man to assume he is being held captive by someone else.

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## VIDEODROME



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## torchbearer

pythagorean?

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## chrono187

> yeah, you and everyone else for like 100 years.
> 
> first, you will need a grand unified theory. 
> (combining Quantum physics with relativity)
> and then your math will work for you.  
> 
> or,
> you could just ask HB!


You won't find this anywhere else. This is an original re-creation, and the only one I know of it's kind. I had the opportunity, under watchful supervision, to duplicate and copy, the Original. I think I did a remarkable job with precision, and accuracy. I had very little experience using a square and compass prior.

Anyway, point being, you won't find this symbol anywhere. It's never seen the light of day. Perhavs people will look at this, or theorem behind it, for the NEXT 100 years.

Combining quantum physics with relativity  is really mind-bending... A Time machine, powered by quantum mechanics, designed to make Time yield to space(dark matter). It is the dark matter, which determines relativity in space. It is the suction point, where time and space merge. Think of a black hole.

Whoa. O_O

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## HVACTech

now. we are having fun!
+ rep for your reference to the golden ratio, or golden mean!

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## chrono187

> No. Two problems with this. Firstly, saying that the "universe" (not God) doesn't exist would be akin to a man born into captivity proclaiming that prisons aren't real. Secondly, you are assuming that the man born into captivity actually knows that he is being held captive, and thus would have a reason to refer to it as a "prison", as opposed to just "walls". It would be more analogous to consider a man born into a "Holodeck" as described in _Star Trek_. There would be no reason for the man to assume he is being held captive by someone else.


The man living in a cave, only knowing the image of his own shadow, knows not that he is isolated. If your universe, the world around us, is all we can see.. the same reasoning applies. Symbolism like this invokes much out-of-the-box thinking. What if matter that we see, that which reflects light, acts as a spiritual shadow. We only see the Light matter, therefore we do not understand darkness. I imagine the universe, in it's purest form, being a black-void, empty. What if we can only "see" when our eyes our closed, so to speak? 

I'm starting to branch off into philosophy now. Let's stick to logistics.

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## CPUd



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## chrono187

> pythagorean?


Pythagoras would been inspired by this ancient seal. Pythagoras made an intellectual pilgrimage to Egypt. We are talking Kabbalistic numerology, and Egyptian glyphs.

So it unravels...

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## Crashland

> The man living in a cave, only knowing the image of his own shadow, knows not that he is isolated. If your universe, the world around us, is all we can see.. the same reasoning applies. Symbolism like this invokes much out-of-the-box thinking. What if matter that we see, that which reflects light, acts as a spiritual shadow. We only see the Light matter, therefore we do not understand darkness. I imagine the universe, in it's purest form, being a black-void, empty. What if we can only "see" when our eyes our closed, so to speak?


What exactly is your question? "What if matter really is actually a spiritual shadow?" Then...you would be right?

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## chrono187

> 


This is you right now, except imagine a Volcano- or eruptive whirlwind.

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## chrono187

> What exactly is your question? "What if matter really is actually a spiritual shadow?" Then...you would be right?


Exactly..

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## chrono187

I just don't know what to make of it.

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## CPUd



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## HVACTech

> What exactly is your question? "What if matter really is actually a spiritual shadow?" Then...you would be right?


a postulation is not a question. it is more like a query. 
I don't know if this was meant to be funny or not...



> "What if matter really is actually a spiritual shadow?"


however, in any case (ment)  it really is a good description of "dark matter" 
how funny is that!  

(dark matter, energy seen as a "spiritual shadow") 
somehow, that just fills me full of aether!

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## Mr Tansill

I'd say your concept is artistic, not mathematical or logical - it doesn't really demonstrate anything. A proof should be able to be used to make a prediction which can be tested (i.e. has a veritable true/false value). What proposition does your "theorem" elucidate?

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## chrono187

> I'd say your concept is artistic, not mathematical or logical - it doesn't really demonstrate anything. A proof should be able to be used to make a prediction which can be tested (i.e. has a veritable true/false value). What proposition does your "theorem" elucidate?


That there is a Creator- a consciousness that can be measured with human tools, and defined in earthly understanding. My theorem is that based upon the  mathematical precision of dimension, extrapolated by the exactness of it's nature, there is very little probability that this was created from big-bang or any other "chaos" theory. There appears to be Order to our Universe. I am not making any measurable predictions, as this seems to transcend that line of thinking.

It's really more of an estimation, I'm speculating the spiritual stock-market and assessing risk vs proposed ROI. I'm taking an educated guess that belief in God is going to be my best investment towards having an enlightened perspective. I want to know what all this means, and idk, God seems to be the only explanation. Then again, it's always THE explanation until "science" figures it out.  I think this transcends science in the sense that it fuses it with religion, or theological thinking.

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## purplechoe



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## Anti Federalist



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## Working Poor

Oh My Tetragrammaton

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## thoughtomator

> 


this guy represents all that is wrong with modern science - self promoter with rote knowledge of an institutional hypothesis passing it off as certain and known truth

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## Mr Tansill

> That there is a Creator- a consciousness that can be measured with human tools, and defined in earthly understanding. My theorem is that based upon the  mathematical precision of dimension, extrapolated by the exactness of it's nature, there is very little probability that this was created from big-bang or any other "chaos" theory. There appears to be Order to our Universe. I am not making any measurable predictions, as this seems to transcend that line of thinking.
> 
> It's really more of an estimation, I'm speculating the spiritual stock-market and assessing risk vs proposed ROI. I'm taking an educated guess that belief in God is going to be my best investment towards having an enlightened perspective. I want to know what all this means, and idk, God seems to be the only explanation. Then again, it's always THE explanation until "science" figures it out.  I think this transcends science in the sense that it fuses it with religion, or theological thinking.


Ok, I see...that's known as Pascal's wager, and is an argument that there is basically no cost to wrongly believing in a false God/afterlife, but that there IS consequence to not believing in a true God/afterlife. I think you're use of "mathematics" and "logic" (really just the words) in order to "prove" something that simultaneously "transcends" the very subject it is seeking to engage is a pretty circular argument IMO. In any case, the phraseology "mathematical precision of dimension, extrapolated by the exactness of its nature" requires clarification, as it is fairly obscure what it is trying to communicate.

All the arguments that rest on the "fantastical improbability" of something happening or not happening are really irrelevant in a sense, because we are here, and thus no matter what, it is a foregone conclusion that we are, in some sense, one of the ways in which the universe can apparently evolve. In fact, one could actually argue - reasonably - that given enough time, ANY non-zero probability (no matter how finite), is not only _possible_, but *inevitable*. Another question to ask that may help clarify the issue from a different angle is this: _Assuming a chaotic universe, what is the probability that it would eventually arrive at its current configuration?_ Meaning the exact, precise location, and velocity of every piece of matter and energy as it currently is...I think it is a number so small, it would defy our imagination at just how impossible it would be to happen. Yet, the universe has a state; a fantastically improbable state followed by another...one nano-second to the next - who are we to say what is or is not possible?

I happen to generally agree with you (maybe not about some of the specifics - mostly because I'm not sure), not from a probabilistic standpoint, but rather from the standpoint of the _reality of our identity_. Lots of things can be "explained" by science - God happens to not be one of them (IMO). One thing I've not been able to rectify or account for, however, is where our identity/consciousness arises from. I merge those words together because I don't mean one or the other, but I don't know of a word that encapsulates both .

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## purplechoe



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## thoughtomator

Seal critique.



Not a square, circle, triangle or line. Naturally occurring (as far as we know, I suppose I should caveat). These are hexagons (several of them nested inside each other, even).

With regards to your 360 degrees discussion, it's not magic, it's the definition humans have assigned to the terms "degree", "square", "triangle" etc. A tautology.

Also, your square is a rectangle and most definitely not a square.

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## Mr Tansill

> this guy represents all that is wrong with modern science - self promoter with rote knowledge of an institutional hypothesis passing it off as certain and known truth


Yeah, I don't like Kaku either...he's way too "amazed" by himself when he's describing concepts I'm not sure he fully grasps (not that anyone can). Here's a real scientist:

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## chrono187

If physical matter manifests our spiritual shadows, then riddle me this:

What if?

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## purplechoe

> With regards to your 360 degrees discussion, it's not magic, it's the definition humans have assigned to the terms "degree", "square", "triangle" etc. A tautology.


I've heard somewhere that a long time ago it took the earth 360 days to go around the sun... that's why we gave the circle a 360 degrees designation...

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## chrono187

> Seal critique.
> 
> 
> 
> Not a square, circle, triangle or line. Naturally occurring (as far as we know, I suppose I should caveat). These are hexagons (several of them nested inside each other, even).
> 
> With regards to your 360 degrees discussion, it's not magic, it's the definition humans have assigned to the terms "degree", "square", "triangle" etc. A tautology.
> 
> Also, your square is a rectangle and most definitely not a square.


The rectangle is a square, stretched. Mathematically, the angles provide symmetry. They are equal in form.

And yes, a 6 pointed star, like this?



https://www.google.com/search?q=hexa...YQ_AUoAA&dpr=1

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## CPUd



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## Mr Tansill

> I've heard somewhere that a long time ago it took the earth 360 days to go around the sun... that's why we gave the circle a 360 degrees designation...


That's interesting...I never considered that, but that could be a very plausible reason why we chose 360 (close round number to 365...) as our basis for counting degrees...

The core of thoughtomator's point, though, is that the _choice_ people made to use 360 is quite literally 100% irrelevant - it makes the arithmetic easy (or easier). You could just as easily have chosen an irrational number to serve as the "number" of degrees in a circle and all the mathematics would come out exactly the same - it might look different, but it would only be so in terminology, not in actuality. An analogy to this is how people count in different languages. In English we say "one, two, three, four, five, ..." and in Spanish, we say "uno, dos, tres, quatro, cinco, ..." No one argues that the people are dealing with different "objects," though they do appear different on paper...

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## chrono187

By the way, a Hexagon requires a combination of circle and square.

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## Sola_Fide

> 


What's that?

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## CPUd

> What's that?


Snowflake / ice crystal

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## chrono187

> That's interesting...I never considered that, but that could be a very plausible reason why we chose 360 (close round number to 365...) as our basis for counting degrees...
> 
> The core of thoughtomator's point, though, is that the _choice_ people made to use 360 is quite literally 100% irrelevant - it makes the arithmetic easy (or easier). You could just as easily have chosen an irrational number to serve as the "number" of degrees in a circle and all the mathematics would come out exactly the same - it might look different, but it would only be so in terminology, not in actuality. An analogy to this is how people count in different languages. In English we say "one, two, three, four, five, ..." and in Spanish, we say "uno, dos, tres, quatro, cinco, ..." No one argues that the people are dealing with different "objects," though they do appear different on paper...


This is why mathematics is universal, she transcends language. Mathematics, I imagine, was an invention, by Man, for measurement.  It was originally designed to quantify wealth, or allocated resources. Who gets what, basically. Next, in Man's search for higher knowledge, he began to apply mathematics to the Stars. It was his way of creating a cosmic compass, a way to determine galactic location. Man's first question was probably, "Where am I?" ..

I think the real question is what came first. Numbers, or Planets/Matter? Abstract Truth, or material truth?

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## thoughtomator

> That's interesting...I never considered that, but that could be a very plausible reason why we chose 360 (close round number to 365...) as our basis for counting degrees...
> 
> The core of thoughtomator's point, though, is that the _choice_ people made to use 360 is quite literally 100% irrelevant - it makes the arithmetic easy (or easier). You could just as easily have chosen an irrational number to serve as the "number" of degrees in a circle and all the mathematics would come out exactly the same - it might look different, but it would only be so in terminology, not in actuality. An analogy to this is how people count in different languages. In English we say "one, two, three, four, five, ..." and in Spanish, we say "uno, dos, tres, quatro, cinco, ..." No one argues that the people are dealing with different "objects," though they do appear different on paper...


yes the math ends up exactly the same if you choose radians rather than degrees as your unit, or any other measure as a unit.

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## HVACTech

> If physical matter manifests our spiritual shadows


you dated storm too!
go figure..

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## thoughtomator

> The rectangle is a square, stretched. Mathematically, the angles provide symmetry. They are equal in form.
> 
> And yes, a 6 pointed star, like this?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=hexa...YQ_AUoAA&dpr=1


A square is a specific type of rectangle. The word square should not be used where you mean rectangle, as that word demands an additional constraint (all four sides of equal length) which your seal does not accommodate.

The hexagram and hexagon are two separate shapes. There is no pointed star in the natural hexagon shape, and the flow (in this case, wind currents at Saturn's pole) are not going along the lines of the hexagram, they are tracing the hexagon. The pointed star is actually two 3-sided shapes, not a single 6-sided shape, so they are quite distinct; and if one were to erase the internal lines of that shape it would still be a different shape (12-sided).

Another good example of the hexagonal shape in nature is the carbon hex ring which is essential to organic chemistry. Again in that shape there are no internal connections, the lines of force flow along the circumference of the shape.

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## Mr Tansill

> This is why mathematics is universal, she transcends language. Mathematics, I imagine, was an invention, by Man, for measurement.  It was originally designed to quantify wealth, or allocated resources. Who gets what, basically. Next, in Man's search for higher knowledge, he began to apply mathematics to the Stars. It was his way of creating a cosmic compass, a way to determine galactic location. Man's first question was probably, "Where am I?" ..
> 
> I think the real question is what came first. Numbers, or Planets/Matter? Abstract Truth, or material truth?


IMV, it's likely that truth simply just _is_, but is manifest in different ways (i.e. there is one underlying reality, which we see in different "dimensions" if you will, call it abstract if you like).

Egg or chicken? Chicken or egg? Neither really...the actual answer is some single-celled organism or a strand of replicating molecules likely governed by quantum mechanics and chemistry.

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## chrono187

> A square is a specific type of rectangle. The word square should not be used where you mean rectangle, as that word demands an additional constraint (all four sides of equal length) which your seal does not accommodate.


I think it's the opposite, a rectangle is a certain type of square. It starts as a square, and becomes a rectangle when you add width to it's dimension.

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## HVACTech

> What's that?


a Klingon vibrator. 

any other questions?

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## thoughtomator

> I think it's the opposite, a rectangle is a certain type of square. It starts as a square, and becomes a rectangle when you add width to it's dimension.


Nay, you need to revisit Geometry 101. 

The set of four-sided shapes contains the parallelogram, which requires two sets of sides where opposite sides are of equal length. 
The set of parallelograms contains rectangles, which adds the requirement that adjacent sides must be perpendicular (creating 90 degree angles). 
The set of rectangles contains the square, which adds the requirement that all four sides are of equal length.
The set of squares contains no rectangle which is not also a square; the set of rectangles includes elements which are not squares, such as the rectangle in your seal.

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## chrono187

> Nay, you need to revisit Geometry 101. 
> 
> The set of four-sided shapes contains the parallelogram, which requires two sets of sides where opposite sides are of equal length. 
> The set of parallelograms contains rectangles, which adds the requirement that adjacent sides must be perpendicular (creating 90 degree angles). 
> The set of rectangles contains the square, which adds the requirement that all four sides are of equal length.
> The set of squares contains no rectangle which is not also a square; the set of rectangles includes elements which are not squares, such as the rectangle in your seal.


Look, lol, I'm a simple guy. I look at a rectangle, and I see a stretched square. I see a square before I see a rectangle. Nonetheless, it's really a moot point. Both a square and rectangle have angles measuring 90°.

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## chrono187

If you're referring to the line going through the principal square, that was only done to measure the center of the Circle. This, btw, is not possible. The Golden Ratio comes into play here. It would appear that a Circle has no measurable center. When observing, the Seal creates an optical illusion of sorts. It's strange. The Golden Ratio, to me, is what the number "infinity" would look like.

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## HVACTech

> I think it's the opposite, a rectangle is a certain type of square. It starts as a square, and becomes a rectangle when you add width to it's dimension.


sure.
yes, you really wrote that.

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## HVACTech

> If you're referring to the line going through the principal square, that was only done to measure the center of the Circle. This, btw, is not possible. The Golden Ratio comes into play here. It would appear that a Circle has no measurable center. When observing, the Seal creates an optical illusion of sorts. It's strange. The Golden Ratio, to me, is what the number "infinity" would look like.





> If you're referring to the line going through the principal square, that was only done to measure the center of the Circle.


yep, you wrote that as well.
and this.



> The Golden Ratio, to me, is what the number "infinity" would look like.




are you dating HB? 
(just curious)

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## chrono187

You will have to define "HB", lol.

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## chrono187

Time for bed! Interested tomorrow in seeing where this discussion takes us. Gn~

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## thoughtomator

you seriously need some math classes to learn geometry and what things like phi (golden ratio) actually mean - for someone whose thesis is that God's language is mathematics, this shouldn't be too much to ask - try Youtube, you can find video lessons at any level you're ready to tackle

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## ClydeCoulter

> Ok, I see...that's known as Pascal's wager, and is an argument that there is basically no cost to wrongly believing in a false God/afterlife, but that there IS consequence to not believing in a true God/afterlife. I think you're use of "mathematics" and "logic" (really just the words) in order to "prove" something that simultaneously "transcends" the very subject it is seeking to engage is a pretty circular argument IMO. In any case, the phraseology "mathematical precision of dimension, extrapolated by the exactness of its nature" requires clarification, as it is fairly obscure what it is trying to communicate.
> 
> All the arguments that rest on the "fantastical improbability" of something happening or not happening are really irrelevant in a sense, because we are here, and thus no matter what, it is a foregone conclusion that we are, in some sense, one of the ways in which the universe can apparently evolve. In fact, one could actually argue - reasonably - that given enough time, ANY non-zero probability (no matter how finite), is not only _possible_, but *inevitable*. Another question to ask that may help clarify the issue from a different angle is this: _Assuming a chaotic universe, what is the probability that it would eventually arrive at its current configuration?_ Meaning the exact, precise location, and velocity of every piece of matter and energy as it currently is...I think it is a number so small, it would defy our imagination at just how impossible it would be to happen. Yet, the universe has a state; a fantastically improbable state followed by another...one nano-second to the next - who are we to say what is or is not possible?
> 
> I happen to generally agree with you (maybe not about some of the specifics - mostly because I'm not sure), not from a probabilistic standpoint, but rather from the standpoint of the _reality of our identity_. Lots of things can be "explained" by science - God happens to not be one of them (IMO). One thing I've not been able to rectify or account for, however, is where our identity/consciousness arises from. I merge those words together because I don't mean one or the other, but I don't know of a word that encapsulates both .


And now I ask, how is it possible for it to be happening now.  That we exist, that I am typing this to you.  Unless I always exist.

I imagine it as an infinite stack of completely different cards, none like another.  Pull one and it is now, and you and I exist.

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## wizardwatson

> Time for bed! *Interested tomorrow in seeing where this discussion takes us.* Gn~


Well, lately it seems like crazy talk discussion leads to somewhere in my vicinity.

Pay no attention to the peanut gallery.  They are just as crazy as you if not more.  Some are even hiding things but I have this feeling you are too.

Your theories are no theories.  It's all psychobabble.  Take it from someone who has been there.  That isn't to say that psychobabble doesn't have its time and place but yours isn't in it.

When the mind has a strong epiphany or metaphysical experience brought on by drugs, or meditation, or nothing particularly that special it immediately gets excited and wants to communicate it.  Your epiphany is related to some kind of awareness of God and the context is in your field of study (somewhere in the vicinity of the buzz words below I've clipped from your ramblings).  God of course is a living breathing consciousness but your abstract knowledge FOR YOU points to Him.  

In your efforts to communicate you seem to think that you see some "path" to that epiphany in the symbols (so that others can see what you see) and you call that illusion of a path your "theory".  But there is no path for anyone perhaps but you.  The epiphany manifested in your own abstract context.  When you babble like this you are just going round and round that abstraction showing how the cluster of symbols and thoughts your mind relates to that abstraction are connected in your head.  To you every connection seems natural but to others it is just static and random associations for the most part unless of course they have a similar psychosis.  

Given that there is no "theory", just your faith, what else might it be that you are trying to communicate?

Let's look at some concepts you mentioned in your ramblings that stood out for me:

God
Seal of Daniel
Witches
Freemasons
Pythagoras
Egyptian Glyphs
Kabbalistic Numerology
Golden Ratio
Star of David

All of these things are obviously connected.  All knowledge is from God but the key to the mystery is how, why, and to whom this knowledge is revealed.  The freemasons are very close to the center of this conspiracy.  Not a conspiracy of men to do evil but a conspiracy authored by God to execute a plan.  For thousansds of years this plan has never changed.

Of course, there's no telling how much of this you already know.

I'm more curious why you put the "Seal of Daniel" in the thread title and why you are calling that drawing the "Seal of Daniel".  My rudimentary knowledge of that term is that it simply means that the meaning of Daniel's end times prophecy is hidden ("sealed") until the end comes (Daniel 12).

Now anybody who actually makes an effort to read the bible sincerely (you will find few of those here) will know that Jesus specifically referred to Daniel 12 when warning "the people of Judea" to flee to the mountains.  So to say you have "solved" or "understand" the "Seal of Daniel" means that you are claiming to have some knowledge of what Christ was saying here:





> Matthew 24:15-16
> 
> When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (*whoso readeth, let him understand*) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.


Are you the reader who "understands", chrono187?

I have my doubts.  My assessment of your posts is that you either have apocalyptic fears, or maybe you think you have some insight into apocalyptic events.  

To be honest I would much rather read about that than watch you try to maintain this illusion that your "theory" has any kind of useful substance.

The answers are there but you have to ask for them rather than thinking you have them.

----------


## Ronin Truth

*"God created the integers, all the rest is the work of man." -- Leopold Kronecker*

----------


## kill the banks

we make our own mind trap !

" Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_sh...y_graven_image

----------


## pcosmar

> I think the real question is what came first. Numbers, or Planets/Matter? Abstract Truth, or material truth?


In the beginning was the Word.  

Seeking Him is the first step,, If you seek (honestly) He will reveal Himself.

----------


## chrono187

> you seriously need some math classes to learn geometry and what things like phi (golden ratio) actually mean - for someone whose thesis is that God's language is mathematics, this shouldn't be too much to ask - try Youtube, you can find video lessons at any level you're ready to tackle


My understanding of the Golden Ratio comes from finding it myself. It is discovered when one attempts to measure the center of a Circle. The Golden Ratio expresses itself in the infinite nature of a Perfect Circle. A Circle has NO measurable center. I am speaking from practice, not conjecture.


I can appreciate the condescending tone of your grammar.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

----------


## Ronin Truth

> I've heard somewhere that a long time ago it took the earth 360 days to go around the sun... that's why we gave the circle a 360 degrees designation...


I SWAG, the sexagesimal number system mathematics of the Anunnaki/Sumerians/Babylonians as the real reason and answer. 

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...51.MVZq07eIwlg

----------


## chrono187

> Well, lately it seems like crazy talk discussion leads to somewhere in my vicinity.
> 
> Pay no attention to the peanut gallery.  They are just as crazy as you if not more.  Some are even hiding things but I have this feeling you are too.
> 
> Your theories are no theories.  It's all psychobabble.  Take it from someone who has been there.  That isn't to say that psychobabble doesn't have its time and place but yours isn't in it.
> 
> When the mind has a strong epiphany or metaphysical experience brought on by drugs, or meditation, or nothing particularly that special it immediately gets excited and wants to communicate it.  Your epiphany is related to some kind of awareness of God and the context is in your field of study (somewhere in the vicinity of the buzz words below I've clipped from your ramblings).  God of course is a living breathing consciousness but your abstract knowledge FOR YOU points to Him.  
> 
> In your efforts to communicate you seem to think that you see some "path" to that epiphany in the symbols (so that others can see what you see) and you call that illusion of a path your "theory".  But there is no path for anyone perhaps but you.  The epiphany manifested in your own abstract context.  When you babble like this you are just going round and round that abstraction showing how the cluster of symbols and thoughts your mind relates to that abstraction are connected in your head.  To you every connection seems natural but to others it is just static and random associations for the most part unless of course they have a similar psychosis.  
> ...


I think this fits your response as well, for the most part:

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

Now, I don't think I have all the answers. Furthermore, I am no Biblical Scholar. I also don't have any apocalyptic fears, or apocalyptic theories for that matter. I make no claim to "understanding" Daniel's prophecy or the End-Times.

I am interested in Mathematics, Physics, Philosophy, and the Occult. I also appreciate a little sensationalism. My interpretations, they were written in such a way as to invoke passion in people like you.

I appreciate your critique/review. You give me inspiration to think harder, and imagine greater.

----------


## Ronin Truth

*The good Christian should beware of mathematicians. The danger already exists that mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and confine man in the bonds of Hell. -- Augustine of Hippo*

----------


## thoughtomator

> My understanding of the Golden Ratio comes from finding it myself. It is discovered when one attempts to measure the center of a Circle. The Golden Ratio expresses itself in the infinite nature of a Perfect Circle. A Circle has NO measurable center. I am speaking from practice, not conjecture.
> 
> 
> I can appreciate the condescending tone of your grammar.
> 
> https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem


OK obviously you insist on being ignorant, but anybody can google "Golden Ratio" and find out it's a completely different animal from whatever you're talking about.

Add that to your glaring lack of mathematical skills, and one can't help but come to the conclusion that you don't want to speak the language, in spite of the importance you claim to place on it.

$#@!, it's not like I was asking you to do calculus or anything. We're talking about knowledge that is established to have been known thousands of years ago that you are not in command of.

----------


## chrono187

> *The good Christian should beware of mathematicians. The danger already exists that mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and confine man in the bonds of Hell. -- Augustine of Hippo*


Is this sort of like what happens before he gets thrown in the mental hospital, and chemically lobotomized?

----------


## chrono187

> OK obviously you insist on being ignorant, but anybody can google "Golden Ratio" and find out it's a completely different animal from whatever you're talking about.


I encourage them to do that, and read into it. You obviously haven't. 

I am not here on some Missionary bump, attempting to convert atheists into my Cult of Mathletes.

Why are name-calling? 

lol

----------


## wizardwatson

> I think this fits your response as well, for the most part:
> 
> https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
> 
> Now, I don't think I have all the answers. Furthermore, I am no Biblical Scholar. I also don't have any apocalyptic fears, or apocalyptic theories for that matter. I make no claim to "understanding" Daniel's prophecy or the End-Times.
> 
> I am interested in Mathematics, Physics, Philosophy, and the Occult. I also appreciate a little sensationalism. My interpretations, they were written in such a way as to invoke passion in people like you.
> 
> I appreciate your critique/review. You give me inspiration to think harder, and imagine greater.


You know, there's a common word around the interwebz for people whose soul purpose is to "invoke passion".

...

I'm guessing "Ad Hominem" is another buzz word you've picked up along the way.  Obviously you feel attacked and criticized at my thoughts and sayings, but let me remind you of your words in the OP:




> *Thoughts?*
> 
> I am asking around, *seeking critique*. I am *looking for flaws* in this theorem. *What say you*?


Friend, all those things I did.

"Ad Hominem" implies we are having a formal argument.  Your only solid assertion that I see is that some of God's mysteries are revealed through mathematics and numerology.  I agreed with this.  My critique was that your theory, your "path" to understanding and communicating this knowledge is a mirage.  So I'm saying your intuition is correct but your technical understanding is amateur at best.

I'm not trying to attack you I was trying to engage but now it seems by the tone of your reply that you are disengaging.  I prefer to be blunt these days as the time is short.  There is no need to be an expert.  We are all beginners.  Running away from being a beginner is the mark of a fool, not an expert.

You shouldn't give up, backpedal and say, "oh, I'm just interested in this stuff, I wanted to inspire people."  Hogwash.  YOU have questions.  You have a goal.  Why do you care about what or who God is?  Why do you feel the need to tell us?  Why is your artifact significant to you?  

Stick around a while.  This forum is chocked full of space monkeys who know all about these things it's just that they are conditioned to spot the "seekers in name only" and let them walk by.  Seek answers not encouragement.  That 1998 "Pi" movie someone posted earlier on this thread is an amazing revelation that is quite centered on many of the things you've touched on.

As far as the bible stuff, well, if you don't understand it throwing around the words and symbols that it contains like graffiti in your ramblings is likely to confuse those of us who think they have important meanings.  In fact life and death meanings.

You might be sincere or you might not.

You might also be looney tunes like me but I don't want to get my hopes too high.

----------


## wizardwatson

> *“The good Christian should beware of mathematicians. The danger already exists that mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and confine man in the bonds of Hell.” -- Augustine of Hippo*


Is your post to warn or hide the identity of the "good Christian"?

Perhaps you'd like to post a masonic pentagram as well?  We all know how those devil worshipers love that pentagram.

----------


## chrono187

> You know, there's a common word around the  interwebz for people whose soul purpose is to "invoke passion".
> 
> ...
> 
> I'm guessing "Ad Hominem" is another buzz word you've picked up along  the way.  Obviously you feel attacked and criticized at my thoughts and  sayings, but let me remind you of your words in the OP:
> 
> 
> 
> Friend, all those things I did.
> ...


I don't have the answers. I never claimed to have the answers. The  fact that I don't have all the answers, this is why I posted here and  elsewhere. I am seeking peer criticism, but more importantly, growth  through individual purpose- Common understanding of Goals. 

No,  I'm not a troll. I am a seeker, understanding that to know everything is  to know that I know nothing. I am asking questions, receiving  responses, and rebutting critiques. I see no problem here. What I do  see, is people and their  identity being attacked by a piece of paper  with lettering and other imagery on it. I'm a bit startled, are we  feeling religious revelation, or scientific forum for reviewal and  debate?

Yes, I am also toon-ey lunes.

----------


## CPUd

A circle starts out as a square, then it gets rolled around for a while until it becomes a circle.

----------


## chrono187

> A circle starts out as a square, then it gets rolled around for a while until it becomes a circle.


Think of a Circle, imagine Water. Water can morph into any shape, as it fits all Sizes. Water is lucid, it takes on the shape of any form it attaches to.

A square starts out as a Circle.

----------


## CPUd



----------


## CPUd

Q.E.D.

----------


## erowe1

> I am asking around, seeking critique. I am looking for flaws in this theorem. What say you?


What theorem?

----------


## chrono187

Priest = Symphony/Behavior/Chaos
Judge = Orchestra/Conduct/Order

The Cult of Saturn. Those who dawn the black Robe. Start to imagine Archetypes now. Saturn was the Planet the Romans associated with the Grecian God Chronos, the Phoenicians EL, and Sumerians ANU.

The Time Keeper, your Grandfather Clock.

There is a Dark curtain surrounding the Wizard of oz.

----------


## erowe1

> My understanding of the Golden Ratio comes from finding it myself. It is discovered when one attempts to measure the center of a Circle. The Golden Ratio expresses itself in the infinite nature of a Perfect Circle. A Circle has NO measurable center. I am speaking from practice, not conjecture.


Wowsers.

----------


## wizardwatson

> Wowsers.


You know, coincidentally, my hometown from around age 8 to 18 was Centralia, Illinois.

The area code is 618.  So dialing any number there starts 1-618.  Spooky.

----------


## wizardwatson

> You know, coincidentally, my hometown from around age 8 to 18 was Centralia, Illinois.
> 
> The area code is 618.  So dialing any number there starts 1-618.  Spooky.


Come to think of it I also lived in Maryland Heights, MO (outside St. Louis) where the area code is 314 (3.14 anyone?).

Speaking of Pi I always thought it interesting that Pi-being calculated using Pythagorean theorem where a basic right triangle is 3,4,5-seems to include the basic 3,4,5 numbers right at the beginning.

*3* . 1 *4* 1 *5* 9

Patterns, patterns, everywhere.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> If you're referring to the line going through the principal square, that was only done to measure the center of the Circle. This, btw, is not possible. The Golden Ratio comes into play here. *It would appear that a Circle has no measurable center.* When observing, the Seal creates an optical illusion of sorts. It's strange. The Golden Ratio, to me, is what the number "infinity" would look like.


What would you call the crossing point of two perpendicular diameters of the circle?

----------


## CPUd

> Come to think of it I also lived in Maryland Heights, MO (outside St. Louis) where the area code is 314 (3.14 anyone?).
> 
> Speaking of Pi I always thought it interesting that Pi-being calculated using Pythagorean theorem where a basic right triangle is 3,4,5-seems to include the basic 3,4,5 numbers right at the beginning.
> 
> *3* . 1 *4* 1 *5* 9
> 
> Patterns, patterns, everywhere.


Where I'm from, we call it 'half tau':
http://www.tauday.com/

----------


## wizardwatson

> Priest = Symphony/Behavior/Chaos
> Judge = Orchestra/Conduct/Order
> 
> The Cult of Saturn. Those who dawn the black Robe. Start to imagine Archetypes now. Saturn was the Planet the Romans associated with the Grecian God Chronos, the Phoenicians EL, and Sumerians ANU.
> 
> The Time Keeper, your Grandfather Clock.
> 
> There is a Dark curtain surrounding the Wizard of oz.


Saturday was named for Saturn if I recall correctly.  Some of the other days are named for other things.

There's a lot of hidden meaning in The Wizard of Oz.  The curtain may be dark but it's still a con-man carny with a top hat behind it.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Is your post to warn or hide the identity of the "good Christian"?
> 
> Perhaps you'd like to post a masonic pentagram as well? We all know how those devil worshipers love that pentagram.


It's just a questioning observation about God's language being mathematics.

Nah, to the Satanic FreeMasons. I'm a fan of the Pythagorean/Platonic regular geometric solids set.

----------


## chrono187

> What would you call the crossing point of two perpendicular diameters of the circle?


Celtic cross?

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Celtic cross?


 Nope sorry, care to guess again?  Hint:Crossing POINT.

----------


## CPUd

A point is a square that has been stomped on 3 times.

----------


## chrono187

> Saturday was named for Saturn if I recall correctly.  Some of the other days are named for other things.
> 
> There's a lot of hidden meaning in The Wizard of Oz.  The curtain may be dark but it's still a con-man carny with a top hat behind it.


Yes, that's correct. Saturvday.

This is Real life though, maybe he's a Teacher? He showed them that the entire world is an illusion. The seats of power, the positions of authority, they are actors. We are role-players, monkey see-monkey do. They don't call it Political "Science" for nothing. There is a Science to manipulating human consciousness and behavior.

"All *the world's a stage*, And all *the*  men and women merely players; They have their exits and their entrances,  And one man in his time plays many parts, His acts being seven ages. At  first, *the* infant, Mewling and puking in *the* nurse's arms."

----------


## wizardwatson

> A point is a square that has been stomped on 3 times.


Isn't that a cube?  A square would be two times.

EDIT:  Well, 3 times would still be a point I suppose for the square.  But methinks 2 stomps would be enough for a square.

----------


## CPUd

You have to rotate the square after each stomp.

----------


## chrono187

> Nope sorry, care to guess again?  Hint:Crossing POINT.


A Point(.) is just a microcosm of the Universe. It's a million microcosmic O's. The pen meeting the paper is where thought and matter begin. Maybe when we draw, or illustrate, Faeries and Gnomes, they manifest somewhere in the Universe around us. The unseen side, or dark matter.

Could it be?

----------


## HVACTech

> What would you call the crossing point of two perpendicular diameters of the circle?


reticules ?

----------


## chrono187

> Q.E.D.


You know, in Egypt there was a Goddess known as Bastet. She was a Goddess of Cats. Cats were sacred in Egypt, and killing a Cat, you were sentenced to Death. They were Protected. Cats symbolized the Sacred Divine, they were a Sacral symbol. The Sacral Chakra is located right Below your navel- but now we're getting into Hinduism. Anyway, Cats are a Fertility-related archetype, thought to provide Love and Protection- especially when it comes to child birth.

----------


## Mr Tansill

> And now I ask, how is it possible for it to be happening now.  That we exist, that I am typing this to you.  Unless I always exist.
> 
> I imagine it as an infinite stack of completely different cards, none like another.  Pull one and it is now, and you and I exist.


Gotta be honest...I don't really follow you...

----------


## Ronin Truth

> A Point(.) is just a microcosm of the Universe. It's a million microcosmic O's. The pen meeting the paper is where thought and matter begin. Maybe when we draw, or illustrate, Faeries and Gnomes, they manifest somewhere in the Universe around us. The unseen side, or dark matter.
> 
> Could it be?


  Or some just might choose to simply call it the center of the circle.

----------


## wizardwatson

> Nope sorry, care to guess again?  Hint:Crossing POINT.





> A Point(.) is just a microcosm of the Universe. It's a million microcosmic O's. The pen meeting the paper is where thought and matter begin. Maybe when we draw, or illustrate, Faeries and Gnomes, they manifest somewhere in the Universe around us. The unseen side, or dark matter.
> 
> Could it be?


Ronin, do all your conversations end up in mixed metaphors, wild tangents, and oddly placed capital letters?

Do you have a secret decoder ring for all this stuff?

----------


## Ronin Truth

> reticules ?


 quad radii.

----------


## chrono187

> Or some just might choose to simply call it the center of the circle.


Yes. Well yeah, that makes sense I guess. The core is Hot. Think of the alchemical symbol for the Sun.

----------


## chrono187

What if, the Universe outside, is an Earth, inside-out. Think of the Earths different layers, and at it's Core, is Heat. Heat, with the kind of intensity that would invoke thoughts of the Sun, or Sirius. What if Space, is like the Universe's Water... That which can take on any material form- like Water. What if Moonlight, or Light from the Moon after it touches water, the reflection that occurs mirrors the Soul.

Ok, maybe I'm getting a little too deep there.

----------


## osan

Cue wildly angry Christians with torches and pitchforks chanting "burn the witch!" in 3... 2...

That, I say ,that's humor, boy...  Pay, i say, pay attention to me when I'm talkin' to y'boy...

----------


## willwash

Your wrong because

THE BIBLE!!!!!

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Cue wildly angry Christians with torches and pitchforks chanting "burn the witch!" in 3... 2...
> 
> That, I say ,that's humor, boy...  Pay, i say, pay attention to me when I'm talkin' to y'boy...

----------


## HVACTech

and now you have met HB. 
see! you really should have just asked him first.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Your wrong because
> 
> THE BIBLE!!!!!


What's wrong with that?   When atheists say "your wrong because of empirical observation", I laugh at that irrational position.  It's so easy to defeat with logic.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> Your wrong because
> 
> THE BIBLE!!!!!


This has all but become a meme at PHC...

----------


## HVACTech

> What's wrong with that?   When atheists say "your wrong because of empirical observation", I laugh at that irrational position.  It's so easy to defeat with logic.


does she weigh more than a duck?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> does she weigh more than a duck?


What's that mean?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> This has all but become a meme at PHC...


It's not wrong to use the Bible as the final authority, in fact it's essential to Christian epistemology. The vast majority of people who call themselves Christians today don't use the Bible as their ultimate authority.   And then when some of them do, they don't truly use the Bible alone,  they mix it with their other philosophies so that it ends up contradicting the Bible.

----------


## HVACTech

> What's that mean?


it was from HB's video, sorry.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> It's not wrong to use the Bible as the final authority, in fact it's essential to Christian epistemology. The vast majority of people who call themselves Christians today don't use the Bible as their ultimate authority.   And then when some of them do, they don't truly use the Bible alone,  they mix it with their other philosophies so that it ends up contradicting the Bible.


I totally agree with you.

----------


## willwash

> What's wrong with that?   When atheists say "your wrong because of empirical observation", I laugh at that irrational position.  It's so easy to defeat with logic.


OK.  Use *logic* to tell me why "Your wrong because THE BIBLE!!!!" is a better argument than

1)  You're (I can't intentionally do the improper non-use of an apostrophe here anymore--it was a poor attempt at humorous irony of the ignorance so often exhibited by religious fundamentalists) wrong because THE KORAN!!!
2)  You're wrong because THE TALMUD!!!!
3)  You're wrong because BHAGAVAD GITA!!!
4)  You're wrong because THE TIBETAN BOOK OF THE DEAD!!!!

etc.

You won't be able to do it.  You can tell me I should accept the Bible all you want, whatever.  But don't then tell me your position is defensible according to logic and reason.  Your position is defensible only according to authority.

----------


## Mach

Angles, we don't need no steenkin angles.....

















A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.
- Max Planck (Nobel Prize in Physics in 1918)

----------


## Sola_Fide

> OK.  Use *logic* to tell me why "Your wrong because THE BIBLE!!!!" is a better argument than
> 
> 1)  You're (I can't intentionally do the improper non-use of an apostrophe here anymore--it was a poor attempt at humorous irony of the ignorance so often exhibited by religious fundamentalists) wrong because THE KORAN!!!
> 2)  You're wrong because THE TALMUD!!!!
> 3)  You're wrong because BHAGAVAD GITA!!!
> 4)  You're wrong because THE TIBETAN BOOK OF THE DEAD!!!!
> 
> etc.
> 
> You won't be able to do it.  You can tell me I should accept the Bible all you want, whatever.  But don't then tell me your position is defensible according to logic and reason.  Your position is defensible only according to authority.


Why should I accept your irrational blind faith authority of empirical observation?

----------


## TheGrinch

> Why should I accept your irrational blind faith authority of empirical observation?


Do you literally just troll through random threads, jumping up in excitement that someone might have mentioned the Bible or Christianity, then frown and hang your head in disappointment if you realize they didn't. I'll give it to you, I've never seen someone take the Socratic method to such levels of trolling. 

Now please don't derail this fantastic thread. I'm really learning a lot about how turning squares into rectangles will prevent the Illuminati from causing the impending apocalypse.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Do you literally just troll through random threads, jumping up in excitement that someone might have mentioned the Bible or Christianity, then frown and hang your head in disappointment if you realize they didn't. I'll give it to you, I've never seen someone take the Socratic method to such levels of trolling. 
> 
> Now please don't derail this fantastic thread. I'm really learning a lot about how turning squares into rectangles will prevent the Illuminati from causing the impending apocalypse.



This thread is about how to prove God's existence.   It's really a stupid thread, because everything is already proof of God's existence.   You can't prove God's existence,  and it doesn't need to be proven anyway.

I was responding to a post in this thread which challenged the starting point of knowledge for a Christian (the Bible) by challenging the atheists irrational standard for knowledge.   I don't see anything wrong with that.

----------


## Ender

> This is why mathematics is universal, she transcends language. Mathematics, I imagine, was an invention, by Man, for measurement.  It was originally designed to quantify wealth, or allocated resources. Who gets what, basically. Next, in Man's search for higher knowledge, he began to apply mathematics to the Stars. It was his way of creating a cosmic compass, a way to determine galactic location. Man's first question was probably, "Where am I?" ..
> 
> I think the real question is what came first. Numbers, or Planets/Matter? Abstract Truth, or material truth?


From my studies, math was first an art; there was even a Greek Muse for math. The West has destroyed much of the beauty of math until we think mostly of 2+2 as math and of not fixing a car or painting a gorgeous still life.

Math is everything from throwing hoops to light design to decorating. 

Everything is math; everything is art. I always think of God as the Ultimate Artist.

----------


## erowe1

> What if, the Universe outside, is an Earth, inside-out. Think of the Earths different layers, and at it's Core, is Heat. Heat, with the kind of intensity that would invoke thoughts of the Sun, or Sirius. What if Space, is like the Universe's Water... That which can take on any material form- like Water. What if Moonlight, or Light from the Moon after it touches water, the reflection that occurs mirrors the Soul.
> 
> Ok, maybe I'm getting a little too deep there.


I can't think of who it is you remind me of.

It's not Fire11.

It's not Uncle Emanuel Watkins.

Who is it?

----------


## TheGrinch

> This thread is about how to prove God's existence.   It's really a stupid thread, because everything is already proof of God's existence.   You can't prove God's existence,  and it doesn't need to be proven anyway.
> 
> I was responding to a post in this thread which challenged the starting point of knowledge for a Christian (the Bible) by challenging the atheists irrational standard for knowledge.   I don't see anything wrong with that.


Why do you suppose you don't find anything wrong with that?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Why do you suppose you don't find anything wrong with that?


Well, one reason is that this is the religion forum where religious ideas are discussed.

----------


## TheGrinch

> Well, one reason is that this is the religion forum where religious ideas are discussed.


I was so caught up in the absurdity that I honestly forgot this thread actually had a religious overtone.

But that begs the question, why discuss religion at all, if it is simply determined who will be saved and who will come to the wrong conclusions?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> I was so caught up in the absurdity that I honestly forgot this thread actually had a religious overtone.
> 
> But that begs the question, why discuss religion at all, if it is simply determined who will be saved and who will come to the wrong conclusions?


Because God commands Christians to preach the word.  I don't preach the word because I think I can con someone into believing the gospel,  that is impossible.   I preach the Word because God uses that preaching to open the eyes of His elect.

----------


## TheGrinch

> Because God commands Christians to preach the word.  I don't preach the word because I think I can con someone into believing the gospel,  that is impossible.   I preach the Word because God uses that preaching to open the eyes of His elect.


Why bother using you as a mouthpiece if he can simply determine that one will believe without so much persuasion? Similarly, wjy preach to the unsaveable? What's the point?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Why bother using you as a mouthpiece if he can simply determine that one will believe without so much persuasion? Similarly, wjy preach to the unsaveable? What's the point?


Because God predestines the means (the preaching) as well as the ends (the salvation).  Everything is predestined.

----------


## TheGrinch

> Because God predestines the means (the preaching) as well as the ends (the salvation).  Everything is predestined.


If God were a writer, the publishers would say that that's an extremely and unnecessarily convoluted timeline just to get to a simple predetermined conclusion.

Why do you think God would want to predestine all the means and ends? How would this be a fullfilling use of the gift of intelligent life in his image?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> If God were a writer, the publishers would say that that's an extremely and unnecessarily convoluted timeline just to get to a simple conclusion.
> 
> Why do you think God would want to predestine all the means and ends? How would this be a fullfilling use of the gift of intelligent life in his image?


The question assumes that history is about man and his intelligence.   But the Bible says that history (and salvation) is all for God's glory and by God's intention.   You have a man-centered view of the world.  The Bible has a God-centered view of the world.

----------


## TheGrinch

> The question assumes that history is about man and his intelligence.   But the Bible says that history (and salvation) is all for God's glory and by God's intention.   You have a man-centered view of the world.  The Bible has a God-centered view of the world.


A god centered view written, re-translated, ommitted, even perhaps manipulated, and now interpreted by you, man?

Then how am I to assume the interpretation of you, man, is more in line with the true Bible than my own or other men?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> A god centered view written, re-translated, ommitted, even perhaps manipulated, and now interpreted by you, man?
> 
> Then how am I to assume the interpretation of you, man, is more in line with the true Bible than my own or other men?


If God is the sovereign Lord of all knowledge,  what problem do you have with Him giving an infallible revelation of Himself and giving His people the Spirit of Truth?


If you believe that, there is no question about the Bible.   The problem is that you don't believe in this God of knowledge.   That is why you question it.

----------


## chrono187

> This thread is about how to prove God's existence.   It's really a stupid thread, because *everything is already proof of God's existence.   You can't prove God's existence*,  _and it doesn't need to be proven anyway_.


I was scrolling through responses, and I had a John Nash moment, the words started glowing- revealing themselves to me. Somehow this doesn't seem like the most PRUDENT Reasoning if we are TRYING to make an argument for God.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> I was scrolling through responses, and I had a John Nash moment, the words started glowing- revealing themselves to me. Somehow this doesn't seem like the most PRUDENT Reasoning if we are TRYING to make an argument for God.


You keep trying to prove God using evidentialism, and I'll keep laughing as atheists pick your absurd arguments apart.  You need to study presuppositionalism.  Better yet, repent and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, begin to have a Biblical worldview, and then it will come naturally to you.

----------


## TheGrinch

> If God is the sovereign Lord of all knowledge,  what problem do you have with Him giving an infallible revelation of Himself and giving His people the Spirit of Truth?
> 
> 
> If you believe that, there is no question about the Bible.   The problem is that you don't believe in this God of knowledge.   That is why you question it.


So God wants the chosen to never question the claims of man with regard to him? He sure has an odd qualification for being chosen. I guess I'll never know, being so blasphemously inquisitive and all.

----------


## chrono187

It does come naturally. I don't know if you noticed, but I never took a  religious position. I am merely speculating, I am looking at numbers. I  am creating shapes. I am formulating theories based upon simple shapes  and numbers. This is like textbook grammar or something.

The  beauty of Daniel's Seal is that it is so Elementary, it can be explained  to a 5 year old. I look at this Sigil, and I just think, "Basics". Here  is where the problem lies- Atheists, or those who believe in nothing  greater than Man, can use this as evidence of no God. This, I think, is  what is causing such a stir of emotion. It's like spiritual Kryptonite.  Now, I believe this proves the contrary, I believe this proves the  EXISTENCE of God.  However, you will not help that argument by engaging  in Bizarre forms of Neo-Orwellian triple-think, mental gymnastics like  this:




> This thread is about how to prove God's existence.   It's really a stupid thread, *(1)-because everything is already proof of God's existence*. *(2)-You can't prove God's existence*, _ (3)-and it doesn't need to be proven anyway._

----------


## Sola_Fide

> It does come naturally. I don't know if you noticed, but I never took a  religious position. I am merely speculating, I am looking at numbers. I  am creating shapes. I am formulating theories based upon simple shapes  and numbers. This is like textbook grammar or something.
> 
> The  beauty of Daniel's Seal is that it is so Elementary, it can be explained  to a 5 year old. I look at this Sigil, and I just think, "Basics". Here  is where the problem lies- Atheists, or those who believe in nothing  greater than Man, can use this as evidence of no God. This, I think, is  what is causing such a stir of emotion. It's like spiritual Kryptonite.  Now, I believe this proves the contrary, I believe this proves the  EXISTENCE of God.  However, you will not help that argument by engaging  in Bizarre forms of Noe-Orwellian triple-think mental gymnastics like  this:


Do you know what evidentialism is?  Do you know what presuppositionalism is?  What god are you trying to prove?

----------


## chrono187

No, no, I'm not letting you get away with that. You hold 3 different, conflicting views, and you hold them simultaneously, as if they were all True. Explain to me how you have 3 different views, and how they are all conflicting, yet somehow all True at the same time.




> This thread is about how to prove God's existence.   It's really a stupid thread, *(1)-because everything is already proof of God's existence*. *(2)-You can't prove God's existence*, _ (3)-and it doesn't need to be proven anyway._


EXPLAIN TO ME HOW YOU WRAP YOUR MIND AROUND THIS

----------


## Sola_Fide

> No, no, I'm not letting you get away with that. You hold 3 different, conflicting views, and you hold them simultaneously, as if they were all True. Explain to me how you have 3 different views, and how they are all conflicting, yet somehow all True at the same time.
> 
> 
> 
> EXPLAIN TO ME HOW YOU WRAP YOUR MIND AROUND THIS


Learn about Christianity,  and learn about presuppositional apologetics, and then all of it will make sense.  Nothing in what I said is contradictory in any way.

----------


## chrono187

Here, let me explain something to you.

3 Wise Men followed the Eastern Star, or the Star of Bethlehem, to the birthplace of Christ.

Ok,  first of all, the Eastern Star, is the Star Sirius... otherwise known  as the Dog-star. The Star of Bethlehem. This is that very light you see  when you look up into that dark sky, the Star which shines brightest.  Ok? It is the only thing that will pop-out at you other than the Moon.  When you rise, if you get up early enough, you will see see what is  called the "Morning Star". The Morning Star, this is the Planet Venus.  The one in the Sky. It lights the up the Sky, right before the Sun rises. It is Bright, and looks like a Star. Venus, the Morning Star, goes by another name. Lucifer.

Lucifer, the "Morning Star".. Does this ring any bells? Wasn't someone else also referred to as the Morning Star?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lucifer?s=t

Have  you ever wondered why people are always Mourning at a Wake? Do you Wake  up in the Morning? You are the spiritually dead. Do you understand the  filth and blasphemy that leaves your mouth on a Daily basis? How many  times have you said "I'm awake".. Yes, indeed you are A Wake. You are  the living dead.

http://biblehub.com/hosea/4-6.htm

Don't  talk to me about Christ again. Christ is not a Person, it's a title. It  means the "Anointed". Jesus, the Anointed One. The Birth of the Christ  is something that has not happened yet. There is a reason Jews don't  believe Jesus is Messiah, and thus they are still looking for their  "Christ". Hindus are looking for Krishna, New-Agers Matrea, Buddhists  looking for the Buddha, everyone is looking for someone. You want  someone to come save you from all your woes. Imagine the ridiculous  notion of rapture. You're so lucky, when the going gets tough, you get  teleported right up into space-heaven. What a grand idea, you don't have  to lift a finger to help yourself. God is coming. No, rather, try seeking inward. Look within.

http://biblehub.com/luke/17-21.htm

----------


## Ronin Truth

*"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." -- Albert Einstein*

----------


## Sonny Tufts

"Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best, he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. 

― Robert A. Heinlein

----------


## wizardwatson

> Learn about Christianity,  and learn about presuppositional apologetics, and then *all of it will make sense*.  Nothing in what I said is contradictory in any way.


A quick perusal of what evidentialism/presuppositionalism meant and I think they are two excellent views to have.  

Why are these two mutually exclusive?

Why can't evidence and faith based rationale both be the foundation of belief?

Oh, wait I forgot.  This is one of the methods by which we divide the lucky ones from the hellbound.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Ronin, do all your conversations end up in mixed metaphors, wild tangents, and oddly placed capital letters?
> 
> Do you have a secret decoder ring for all this stuff?



On a scale of 1 to 10, what is your favorite color of the alphabet?

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Yes. Well yeah, that makes sense I guess. The core is Hot. Think of the alchemical symbol for the Sun.




BTW, FWIW, it's also the astrological Sun symbol, used in creating horoscopes.

----------


## wizardwatson

> On a scale of 1 to 10, what is your favorite color of the alphabet?


Princess Consuela Bananahammock?

----------


## wizardwatson

> Originally Posted by chrono187
> 
> 
> Yes. Well yeah, that makes sense I guess. The core is Hot. Think of the alchemical symbol for the Sun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, FWIW, it's also the astrological Sun symbol, used in creating horoscopes.


If you add an electron it's Dr. Manhattan's bindi.

That's from the movie Watchmen.

It's a good eschatological metaphor.

I like Rorschach.  He reminds me of Deadpool.

Here he alludes to Babylon.




> This city is afraid of me...I have seen its true face. The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout "Save us!"... and I'll look down and whisper "No." They had a choice, all of them. They could have followed in the footsteps of good men like my father or President Truman. Decent men who believed in a day's work for a day's pay. Instead they followed the droppings of lechers and communists and didn't realize that the trail led over a precipice until it was too late. Don't tell me they didn't have a choice. Now the whole world stands on the brink, staring down into bloody Hell, all those liberals and intellectuals and smooth-talkers... and all of a sudden nobody can think of anything to say.


And here to what comes soon after its destruction.




> Soon there will be war. Millions will burn. Millions will perish in sickness and misery. Why does one death matter against so many? Because there is good and there is evil, and evil must be punished. Even in the face of Armageddon I shall not compromise in this. But there are so many deserving of retribution ... and there is so little time.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> does she weigh more than a duck?





> _Hammer:_ Now, right over here...this is the residential section. 
> _
> Chico:_ Oh, people live there, eh? 
> _
> Hammer:_ No, that's the stockyard. Now, all along here, this is the river front. And all along the river...all along the river, those are all levies. 
> _
> Chico:_ That's the Jewish neighborhood? 
> _
> Hammer:_ (pause) Well, we'll Passover that...You're a peach, boy. Now, here is a little peninsula, and, eh, here is a viaduct leading over to the mainland. 
> ...


.....

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Here, let me explain something to you.
> 
> 3 Wise Men followed the Eastern Star, or the Star of Bethlehem, to the birthplace of Christ.
> 
> Ok,  first of all, the Eastern Star, is the Star Sirius... otherwise known  as the Dog-star. The Star of Bethlehem. This is that very light you see  when you look up into that dark sky, the Star which shines brightest.  Ok? It is the only thing that will pop-out at you other than the Moon.  When you rise, if you get up early enough, you will see see what is  called the "Morning Star". The Morning Star, this is the Planet Venus.  The one in the Sky. It lights the up the Sky, right before the Sun rises. It is Bright, and looks like a Star. Venus, the Morning Star, goes by another name. Lucifer.
> 
> Lucifer, the "Morning Star".. Does this ring any bells? Wasn't someone else also referred to as the Morning Star?
> 
> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lucifer?s=t
> ...



la la land...

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Princess Consuela Bananahammock?


https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...ed=0CFgQ1QIoAA

----------


## wizardwatson

> Here, let me explain something to you.
> 
> 3 Wise Men followed the Eastern Star, or the Star of Bethlehem, to the birthplace of Christ.
> 
> Ok,  first of all, the Eastern Star, is the Star Sirius... otherwise known  as the Dog-star. The Star of Bethlehem. This is that very light you see  when you look up into that dark sky, the Star which shines brightest.  Ok? It is the only thing that will pop-out at you other than the Moon.  When you rise, if you get up early enough, you will see see what is  called the "Morning Star". The Morning Star, this is the Planet Venus.  The one in the Sky. It lights the up the Sky, right before the Sun rises. It is Bright, and looks like a Star. Venus, the Morning Star, goes by another name. Lucifer.
> 
> Lucifer, the "Morning Star".. Does this ring any bells? Wasn't someone else also referred to as the Morning Star?
> 
> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lucifer?s=t
> ...


WOW!!

I gotta say I'm impressed.  What everyone around here already thinks of Sola_Fide you called him out on with Hosea 4:6 no less!!!  You paying attention Sola?  This guy you just told to read the bible and repent just called you a false teacher and he rejects you as God rejects you and backed it up with scripture!

How many signs do you need Sola_Fide?  LOL!!!

Oh, dear Lord, praise Jesus that's some good stuff right there.

...

Ok, so let me try to give you some background on this Sola_Fide guy for you before he starts to peeve you off even more since he'll likely stick around especially if you keep posting awesome scripture to burn him.  Bwahahahahaaa!

Sola_Fide is a good soul.  He genuinely is preaching the gospel he just hasn't found ears that fit the shape of his mouth.  He's an old school hell-fire preaching Calvinist.  Calvinists really pioneered Christianity in the USA but since this country has gone to hell over the last couple hundred years their voice has been somewhat muted.  He's pretty much what you would have if you took a member of the Westboro Baptist Church and removed end-times preaching and warnings about gay people bringing on the wrath of God.  Not the most popular type of fellow but perhaps more popular than an actual member of WBC.  Of course in the world of bulletin boards being unpopular seems to garner you an extra helping of attention.

Problem is he's all thumbs and ain't got a lot of tools in his belt.  He reminds me of Groot from Guardians of the Galaxy.  Not a great conversationalist, just "I am Groot" all the time.  So if you feel like instead of reading scripture to you he's literally throwing the book at you don't sweat it.  He's just more of a "kill em all and let God sort 'em out" kind of guy.  He doesn't have a lot of finesse and is woefully short on tact.  He believes everything is predestined so whether he holds your hand or throws the book at you it doesn't matter.  God predestines all things so Sola_Fide just needs to make a small effort to throw the book in your general direction mostly as a formality.

...

I'd like to address this section:




> *Don't  talk to me about Christ again.* Christ is not a Person, it's a title. It  means the "Anointed". Jesus, the Anointed One. The Birth of the Christ  is something that has not happened yet. There is a reason Jews don't  believe Jesus is Messiah, and thus they are still looking for their  "Christ". Hindus are looking for Krishna, New-Agers Matrea, Buddhists  looking for the Buddha, everyone is looking for someone. You want  someone to come save you from all your woes. Imagine the ridiculous  notion of rapture. You're so lucky, when the going gets tough, you get  teleported right up into space-heaven. What a grand idea, you don't have  to lift a finger to help yourself. God is coming. No, rather, try seeking inward. Look within.



*Christ* 

Christ is a person.  Yes, Christ means "anointed" but His name is not Christ.  His name is Jesus and when He returns He will have a new name.  It will probably be something a little more universal.  Most christians know that Christ just means anointed.  When someome says, "Christ said this" it's really shorthand for "*the* Christ said this."


*Rapture* 

You are correct that the rapture doctrine is false.  There's something kind of "like" it at the very very end when Jesus comes back to destroy Satan's armies but no one from the Church is spared the apocalypse.  The apocalypse is the primary historical work of the Church so you are right to call the notion ridiculous that they would get a hall pass for the event.  Many people will turn to Christ during the apocalypse which seems impossible considering how few believers there are but from the start of the apocalypse belief will not be the difficult part.


*Born Again* 

You didn't mention being "born again" but you mentioned Luke 17:21 and I wanted to give you a little insight into what the verse you quoted points to.  As you may have guessed there are few people who sincerely read the bible and fewer who understand it.

You seem to have interpreted Luke 17:21 to mean "God is not coming" since his kingdom is within you it stands to reason that perhaps God who we assume is also in that kingdom is also something we can't see and say, "Lo here! Lo there!"

I can't fault you on that.  It's pretty sound reasoning and I used to have a similar viewpoint which is usually an indication of it's overall quality.

Let's look at the previous verse and also related verses from John 3.




> Luke 17:20-21
> 
> 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The *kingdom of God* cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the *kingdom of God* is within you.
> 
> John 3:1-8
> 
> There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be *born again*, he cannot see *the kingdom of God*.
> 
> 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the *kingdom of God*. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 *The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.*


A lot of scriptards will tell you that the "Kingdom of Heaven" and the "Kingdom of God" are the same thing.  They are not.  A lot of people will tell you that being "born again" is just symbolic.  That it is the "renewal" of spirit that one experiences when getting faith through repentance or that it's just a metaphor for baptism and to be "baptized into the church" is what "born again" means citing the references to "water" and "spirit".

They are wrong.

What else is Jesus called besides the truth and the life.  The "Way", right?  Being born again is not some abstract quality of a body of believers it is the FINAL GOAL of the believer.  To be born again corrresponds to the Buddhist concept of enlightenment.  Kierkegaard said, "*Faith is the highest passion in a human being. Many in every generation may not come that far, but none comes further.*"  But in this he too is wrong.  Being born again is beyond faith or rather "spotless" faith.  It is the state of the soul that is truly a "Son of God".

The standard pagan christian says, "I'm a born again Christian and when the rapture happens I'm already saved!"  But you can't have any pudding if you don't eat your meat.  Does John 3:8 sound like the typical quality of people who say they are born again?  Or does John 3:8 sound like a taoist who has mastered the Way?  Being born again is not a buzz word to describe a faithful soul struggling against sin for Christ.  It is the perfection of that soul.  Christ indeed destroyed sin for the believers "in the objective spiritual sense".  But for the individual soul, the temporal subjective manifestation of that ultimate destruction is via being born of the Spirit.  Jesus did die for your sin but you won't truly see that, truly feel it beyond all shadow of a doubt until you have mastered the Way and are born again of the Spirit.  Having another believer dunk you in a bathtub doesn't do it.

These souls are very rare on earth.  Many will be born again in the millenial kingdom but I imagine most won't be born again until well into the new heaven and new earth.


*Birth of God*

I wanted to comment on this last as this is the juicy stuff and is shrouded in mystery.




> The Birth of the Christ  is something that has not happened yet. There is a reason Jews don't  believe Jesus is Messiah, and thus they are still looking for their  "Christ". Hindus are looking for Krishna, New-Agers Matrea, Buddhists  looking for the Buddha, everyone is looking for someone. You want  someone to come save you from all your woes.


There is some truth concerning the saviors of other religions and it is indeed connected to God but the connections are esoteric in general and mostly irrelevant to the primary discussion.

The birth of Christ has happened.  It happens twice in fact.  God is not Christ.  God is only born once.

Some jews are right to say Jesus didn't fulfill all the prophecies that they think are about Christ.  Most christians are wrong to think that all the prophetic verses they think are about Christ are in fact about Christ.  The prophecies of a savior/deliverer being born are about two persons not one.  God himself will be born.  This information might seem new but it is in fact very old.  It's just that those who know don't speak.  Maybe that makes them feel special.

It's really not that hard to paint the picture but if you don't put some primer over the painting you already have it can be confusing and difficult.

----------


## wizardwatson

> la la land...


Did you not get the memo that God prefers people to have the heart of a child?

In the new heaven and new earth there are magical places that make la la land seem like the end of the month at the DMV.  

Maybe you should reread Matthew 18:5-6 and cut our friend chrono187 a little slack.




> Luke 11:25
> 
> At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because *thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.*
> 
> Matthew 18:1-6
> 
> 1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, *Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2 And Jesus called a little child unto him*, and set him in the midst of them, 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.


"From the mouth of babes" is what came to my mind when he quoted Hosea.  God does his work through foolish preaching.  Surely, chrono187 is foolish in that regard and if you would acccept you are also a fool you will probably get more accomplished and maybe can come up with some good scriptural zingers like chrono187 did.

When preaching the gospel you should give others the benefit of the doubt rather than yourself.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Did you not get the memo that God prefers people to have the heart of a child?
> 
> In the new heaven and new earth there are magical places that make la la land seem like the end of the month at the DMV.  
> 
> Maybe you should reread Matthew 18:5-6 and cut our friend chrono187 a little slack.
> 
> 
> 
> "From the mouth of babes" is what came to my mind when he quoted Hosea.  God does his work through foolish preaching.  Surely, chrono187 is foolish in that regard and if you would acccept you are also a fool you will probably get more accomplished and maybe can come up with some good scriptural zingers like chrono187 did.
> ...


Chronos isn't preaching the gospel.

----------


## erowe1

Serious question. WizardWatson and Chrono187, do you both go to the same church?

----------


## wizardwatson

> Serious question. WizardWatson and Chrono187, do you both go to the same church?


He could be you for all I know.  I just respond to the words.  Everyone is pretending for the most part anyway.

I'm having trouble believing that was a serious question, though.

----------


## erowe1

> I'm having trouble believing that was a serious question, though.


Caught in my own web of lies.

----------


## wizardwatson

> Chronos isn't preaching the gospel.


Well, I only meant compared to you.

He's actually posted scripture and used it in context to refute your non-scriptural conjecture.  Where is your gospel preaching?  He quoted the words of Jesus. Whose words besides Sola_Fide's are you quoting in this thread?

Just because you say "repent or perish" and he says "Christ is not a person" doesn't mean anything to me.  If you're going to communicate to people who aren't bible savvy you have to consider things in a broader context than "he's saying blasphemous heretical things..ANATHEMA!!!"

You think everything is this or that, but the struggle between for and against is the minds worst disease.

If you can't even understand that evidentialism and presuppositionalism are not mutually exclusive how are you going to become a good enough teacher to tell when to use hard teaching as opposed to soft?

----------


## Sonny Tufts

> When atheists say "your wrong because of empirical observation", I laugh at that irrational position.  It's so easy to defeat with logic.


Since you use empirical observation when you read the Bible, your logic is nonexistent.

----------


## wizardwatson

> Caught in my own web of lies.


Forgot to answer your question as un-serious as it is.

I'd say yes if you consider this place our church.  I do.




> Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.


We're lucky to get that most days.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Since you use empirical observation when you read the Bible, your logic is nonexistent.


Since you use empirical observation and don't understand the Bible, your logic is nonexistent.

----------


## wizardwatson

> Do you literally just troll through random threads, jumping up in excitement that someone might have mentioned the Bible or Christianity, then frown and hang your head in disappointment if you realize they didn't. I'll give it to you, I've never seen someone take the Socratic method to such levels of trolling. 
> 
> *Now please don't derail this fantastic thread. I'm really learning a lot about how turning squares into rectangles will prevent the Illuminati from causing the impending apocalypse.*


Not picking on you, but....




> A fire broke out backstage in a theatre. The clown came out to warn the public; they thought it was a joke and applauded. He repeated it; the acclaim was even greater. *I think that's just how the world will come to an end: to the general applause of wits who believe it's a joke.* - Soren Kierkegaard


What is entertaining can also be informative but you already said that.




> Fiction reveals truth that reality obscures. - Ralph Waldo Emerson


Remember that to the elite and intellectuals of the time Christ was also hilarious.  There's nothing delicious to the eyes about Christ or his story.  It's absurd and offensive really.  People pretend it isn't because the story is old and accepted and they'd like to think they have a good grasp on it.  When the apocalypse happens people will be reminded how absurd and offensive the story is.  And when they are reminded they will realize they didn't have a good grasp on it after all.

----------


## chrono187

Hey, so while you guys are busy arguing over scripture, I'm decoding the rest of the Seal.

The lettering around the Sigil is Arabic. You can use this Arabic number-letter code chart to decipher it:

http://www.barry-baker.com/JournalOfSubmission/v1n3.gif

If you can't be bothered with that, I already did all the Work.

All the numbering matches up. I'm not sure what to make of it.. The inner numbers = 12, and all the outer numbers appear to equal 10.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2z6w...8#.VPoHJeFsnc1

----------


## chrono187

I am also interested in Numerology, so perhaps this could help interpret:

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2dm9...8#.VPYs4-Fsnc0
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2j3l...8#.VPYx3-Fsnc1

I'm coming up blank. I think of 12, I think 12 Apostles, 12 Disciples, 12 Months, 12 Zodiac Signs. 

When I think 10, I think 1 and 0. The merger between Yin(0) and Yang(1).

----------


## Sonny Tufts

> Since you use empirical observation and don't understand the Bible, your logic is nonexistent.


My logic is just fine, because I don't continually contradict myself as you do.  You call empiricism irrational and claim that it can never lead to truth, but you use it to read the Bible.  Therefore, relying on the Bible is irrational, and it cannot be deemed true.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> I am also interested in Numerology, so perhaps this could help interpret:
> 
> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2dm9...8#.VPYs4-Fsnc0
> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2j3l...8#.VPYx3-Fsnc1
> 
> I'm coming up blank. I think of 12, I think 12 Apostles, 12 Disciples, 12 Months, 12 Zodiac Signs. 
> 
> When I think 10, I think 1 and 0. The merger between Yin(0) and Yang(1).


https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...ed=0CGIQ1QIoBA

*The Bible numerology code number 12*

http://www.astrovera.com/bible-relig...number-12.html

----------


## Sola_Fide

> You call empiricism irrational and claim that it can never lead to truth, but you use it to read the Bible.


The question assumes that knowledge comes from the senses.  What is the proof that knowledge comes from the sense?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> I am asking around, seeking critique. I am looking for flaws in this theorem. What say you?
> 
> *All existence is comprised of Shape and Matter.*



The first flaw is in the first sentence.  How do you know this?

----------


## Sonny Tufts

> The question assumes that knowledge comes from the senses.  What is the proof that knowledge comes from the sense?


There was no question; there was a statement.  But suppose you're right; suppose knowledge doesn't come from the senses.  Then how in the world can one know the Bible?  You continue to dodge this simple question.

----------


## Ronin Truth

*“If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration.” -- Nikola Tesla
*

----------


## Mach

> Hey, so while you guys are busy arguing over scripture, I'm decoding the rest of the Seal.
> 
> The lettering around the Sigil is Arabic. You can use this Arabic number-letter code chart to decipher it:
> 
> http://www.barry-baker.com/JournalOfSubmission/v1n3.gif
> 
> If you can't be bothered with that, I already did all the Work.
> 
> All the numbering matches up. I'm not sure what to make of it.. The inner numbers = 12, and all the outer numbers appear to equal 10.
> ...



Do you ever question yourself as far as..... you already know the numbers your looking for before you find them?

 Not being a smartass, a serious question.

----------


## chrono187

> The first flaw is in the first sentence.  How do you know this?


You're right. I should have said Shape and Form, which manifests as Matter.

Thanks.

----------


## chrono187

> Do you ever question yourself as far as..... you already know the numbers your looking for before you find them?
> 
>  Not being a smartass, a serious question.


I'm not sure I understand that question. Can you rephrase?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> There was no question; there was a statement.  But suppose you're right; suppose knowledge doesn't come from the senses.  Then how in the world can one know the Bible?  You continue to dodge this simple question.


You read the Bible, yet you don't understand it or believe it.  So how does that prove that information come from the senses?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> You're right. I should have said Shape and Form, which manifests as Matter.
> 
> Thanks.


How do you know that all existence is shape and form?

----------


## chrono187

> How do you know that all existence is shape and form?


Well, I have these Ocular things I use. Well, it's sort of complicated. Here's how it works, Hermes delivers me mail, this mail comes from Iris. She, Iris, revealed to me that all Existence is comprised of Shape and Form. It was her who told me how to correct the error you pointed out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iris_%28mythology%29

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> This thread is about how to prove God's existence.   It's really a stupid thread, because everything is already proof of God's existence.   You can't prove God's existence,  and it doesn't need to be proven anyway.



Saying that everything is proof of God's existence is actually one of the proofs for God's existence.  You just cited the proof without extending it.

----------


## chrono187

> Saying that everything is proof of God's existence is actually one of the proofs for God's existence.  You just cited the proof without extending it.


So, A=A because A=A? God exists, because God exists?

We have to do better than this.

----------


## Sonny Tufts

> You read the Bible, yet you don't understand it or believe it.  So how does that prove that information come from the senses?


If information doesn't come from the senses why should I read the Bible, since I must use my senses to do so?  According to you, reading it would be a pointless exercise because I would obtain no information.  And since you read it too, you obtain no information, and your continual citation of Scripture is thereby pointless and ineffective.

----------


## Mr Tansill

> You read the Bible, yet you don't understand it or believe it.  So how does that prove that information come from the senses?


There is really no way to _prove_ it _per se_, but there is a way to answer the question definitively, I think, but it requires a "thought experiment."

You could take two separate groups of people, place them on separate islands, isolated from the rest of the world and themselves. Given enough time, it is likely that these different groups would develop different languages, theories about the physical universe, mathematics, and religions.

It is extremely likely that though the languages sound different, embedded within them would be similar concepts, and even different "sounds" that really communicate the same idea - i.e., there would be a correspondence between the languages, and the subjects people talk about, the things that concern them, would be very similar.

It is extremely likely that _eventually_, the societies' theories of the universe (though they may have started out differently), would eventually converge to the same underlying relations that define things like gravity, light, mass, acceleration, force, physics, chemistry, etc.

It is extremely likely that their Mathematics would be the same.

It is extremely likely that both societies would develop religious and/or mystic beliefs about the universe and themselves, their destiny, their purpose, God's nature, etc; however, it is extremely unlikely that they would both involve the holy trinity, the old testament, Jesus Christ, Peter's denial, the resurrection of Christ, Satan, Adam and Eve, Seven days of creation, etc, etc. And this is the point that does it for me: it is _impossible_ to discover a specific religion - one must be _told_ about it, and is the identifying feature which makes it a qualitatively different thing from any of the above subjects discussed.

So while no one can _prove_ that "information comes from the senses," there is enough weight of evidence that _suggests_ that this is the case. Just as no one can prove that your own experience of the color yellow is the same as mine, we both (assuming we're not color blind) react to the same frequency of light that produces an experience we agree to call "yellow."

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Well, I have these Ocular things I use. Well, it's sort of complicated. Here's how it works, Hermes delivers me mail, this mail comes from Iris. She, Iris, revealed to me that all Existence is comprised of Shape and Form. It was her who told me how to correct the error you pointed out.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iris_%28mythology%29


Uncle Emmanuel Watkins is back.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> If information doesn't come from the senses why should I read the Bible, since I must use my senses to do so?  According to you, reading it would be a pointless exercise because I would obtain no information.  And since you read it too, you obtain no information, and your continual citation of Scripture is thereby pointless and ineffective.


What is the proof that information comes from the sensation of reading the Bible?

----------


## Mr Tansill

> So, A=A because A=A? God exists, because God exists?
> 
> We have to do better than this.


I "agree," but I think it will be difficult. In Mathematics, when setting up the _definition_ of equality, you establish a relation such as A = A, in order to communicate exactly what is meant by the relation "equals" (=). You then give a variety of other definitions and examples that show how it is used and what else it means. Generically, these most basic "facts" in Math are called axioms, and they are the starting framework of assumptions used to construct the rest of Mathematics.

When "arguing" the existence of God from a standpoint that "God exists because God exists," you actually don't need to go anywhere else with the "proof," because you started with what you needed - you assumed it was true, and then "concluded" it was true (quite a feat of mental gymnastics!).

If you desire to "prove" God exists, you have to assume he doesn't exist and then start from axioms and rules of inference that don't assume the conclusion, and then show how God is a necessary outcome of that logic.

----------


## chrono187

> Uncle Emmanuel Watkins is back.


You are going to figure this stuff out one day.

----------


## Sonny Tufts

> What is the proof that information comes from the sensation of reading the Bible?


You tell me -- you're the one who keeps quoting it as if it were the truth.

----------


## wizardwatson

> Originally Posted by Sola_Fide
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by chrono187
> ...


You see, Sola_Fide, this is what I mean by giving people the benefit of the doubt.  chrono187 has faith in you.

I actually think the eye thing was kind of clever.

----------


## chrono187

> If you desire to "prove" God exists, you have to assume he doesn't exist and then start from axioms and rules of inference that don't assume the conclusion, and then show how God is a necessary outcome of that logic.


Well put.

Since God was here first, at least in the Mind of Man, I think the burden of proof is on the Nay-Sayers. God stands as Principal.

Though, it is much harder to prove a negative than it is to prove a positive. This would give God home-field advantage, so to speak.

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> So, A=A because A=A? God exists, because God exists?


No.




> We have to do better than this.


Or _you?
_

----------


## Sola_Fide

> You tell me -- you're the one who keeps quoting it as if it were the truth.


You are making the assertion.  You've done it 3 times already.  What is the proof?

----------


## chrono187

> No.


Are you saying, that your reasoning, was not Circular?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> There is really no way to _prove_ it _per se_, but there is a way to answer the question definitively, I think, but it requires a "thought experiment."
> 
> *You could take two separate groups of people, place them on separate islands, isolated from the rest of the world and themselves. Given enough time, it is likely that these different groups would develop different languages, theories about the physical universe, mathematics, and religions.
> *
> It is extremely likely that though the languages sound different, embedded within them would be similar concepts, and even different "sounds" that really communicate the same idea - i.e., there would be a correspondence between the languages, and the subjects people talk about, the things that concern them, would be very similar.
> 
> It is extremely likely that _eventually_, the societies' theories of the universe (though they may have started out differently), would eventually converge to the same underlying relations that define things like gravity, light, mass, acceleration, force, physics, chemistry, etc.
> 
> It is extremely likely that their Mathematics would be the same.
> ...



They may come up with different religions, but the Bible says that all men know the God of this universe and suppress the truth of Him in their sin.

----------


## Sonny Tufts

> You are making the assertion.  You've done it 3 times already.  What is the proof?


The only assertions I've made are (a) you read the Bible; (b) reading involves the senses; (c) you claim the Bible is true; and (d) you claim that no information or truth can be obtained through the senses.  Do you dispute any of these assertions?  If not, explain why anyone should place any significance on the Bible or your citations of it.

And while you're at it, explain how you know I made an assertion.

----------


## wizardwatson

> Well put.
> 
> Since *God was here first*, at least in the *M*ind of *M*an, I think the burden of proof is on the Nay-Sayers. *God stands as Principal.*
> 
> Though, it is much harder to prove a negative than it is to prove a positive. *This would give God home-field advantage,* so to speak.


Very perceptive.  I'm beginning to think you really are crazy.

All this talk about proof only makes me think, "what would be the point?"  Ok, you proved God exists.  Now what?  Theorems are proved so you can use them.  You don't "use" the proof.  So what would be the point exactly of a proof?  Anyone?




> Any proof of the syllogism would be absurd. The syllogism is, to put it briefly, nothing but a rule of language to avoid contradiction: at bottom the principle of non-contradiction is a principle of grammar.
> 
> —Simone Weil, Lectures on Philosophy, p. 78
> 
> We are forced to accept the postulates and axioms precisely because we are unable to give an account of them. What one can do is try to explain why they seem obvious to us.
> 
> —Simone Weil, Lectures on Philosophy, p. 113
> 
> *One can never really give a proof of the reality of anything; reality is not something open to proof, it is something established. It is established just because proof is not enough. It is this characteristic of language, at once indispensable and inadequate, which shows the reality of the external world.
> ...

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> Are you saying, that your reasoning, was not Circular?


I told Soda Fudd to extend it out.  Guess if I'm stretching a cord, then that would make it linear.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> The only assertions I've made are (a) you read the Bible; (b) reading involves the senses; (c) you claim the Bible is true; and (d) you claim that no information or truth can be obtained through the senses.  Do you dispute any of these assertions?  If not, explain why anyone should place any significance on the Bible or your citations of it.
> 
> And while you're at it, explain how you know I made an assertion.


In all those questions you are assuming that knowledge comes by sensation.  Why are you blindly assuming what you have to prove?  

I'm not going to answer those questions because I don't have the illogical, blind faith epistemology that you do.  All of those questions assume that empiricism is valid.  You prove that empiricism is valid, and then we can have the discussion.

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> You can't prove God's existence,  and it doesn't need to be proven anyway.






> You prove that empiricism is valid,...



Why does he have to prove something but you don't?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Why does he have to prove something but you don't?


Because I'm not making the assertion (or asking a question that assumes the position before proving it).

Catch up with the discussion and stop asking non-sense questions that don't relate to what we are talking about.

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> Because I'm not making the assertion (or asking a question that assumes the position before proving it).


You assert that God exists.






> Catch up with the discussion and stop asking non-sense questions that don't relate to what we are talking about.


If you can't answer a basic question, then just say so.

----------


## chrono187

> All this talk about proof only makes me  think, "what would be the point?"  Ok, you proved God exists.  Now what?   Theorems are proved so you can use them.  You don't "use" the proof.   So what would be the point exactly of a proof?  Anyone?


On second thought, there is enough proof. I think people can determine what they want to believe. Sometimes I feel like others attempt to impose their beliefs on us. It's like psychic rape.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> You assert that God exists.


Yes.  That is not what is being discussed.  Educate yourself.  I'm not going to respond to anymore of your juvenile posts.

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> Yes.


You just said you're not making an assertion.  Which is it?







> That is not what is being discussed.



Then why did you discuss it in your very first post?---------------------------------->




> You can't prove God's existence,  and it doesn't need to be proven anyway.

----------


## Mach

> I'm not sure I understand that question. Can you rephrase?


I see it as human nature to sell yourself on things that you want to believe, or not believe.

Forming an opinion prior to actual knowledge or experience.... finding selective answers that do nothing but feed your desired road _forward_.

Do you already create answers you would like to be_ true_ before you get any _real_ answers?




And while I have you here, did you ever dig into quantum theory? All of those angles and forms may just be a bunch of secondary clumps. 

-----


Sola Fide, here......

----------


## chrono187

> I see it as human nature to sell yourself on things that you want to believe, or not believe.
> 
> Forming an opinion prior to actual knowledge or experience.... finding selective answers that do nothing but feed your desired road _forward_.
> 
> Do you already create answers you would like to be_ true_ before you get any _real_ answers?


No, that wouldn't make sense.

And yes, I am familiar with quantum theory.

----------


## Mr Tansill

> They may come up with different religions, but the Bible says that all men know the God of this universe and suppress the truth of Him in their sin.


I suppose something as abstract as that statement could be "found" in any of the world's religions, though it may be characterized differently...

It is actually those threads that I think point to the universal truths - notions like the golden rule that find embodiment in all the world's religions. All the specifics are what is subject to question.

----------


## Sonny Tufts

> Because I'm not making the assertion (or asking a question that assumes the position before proving it).


Of course you are.  You claimed that I made an assertion.  How do you know I did?  You will refuse to answer, because you're a sophistic coward who can't afford to admit that the only way you could possibly make such a claim is by using your senses.

Are you so incredibly dense not to realize that the very fact that you are responding to my posts demonstrates that you are relying on your senses?  Or will you now claim that you're a Beta-Zed who can read minds?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Of course you are.  You claimed that I made an assertion.  How do you know I did?  You will refuse to answer, because you're a sophistic coward who can't afford to admit that the only way you could possibly make such a claim is by using your senses.
> 
> Are you so incredibly dense not to realize that the very fact that you are responding to my posts demonstrates that you are relying on your senses?  Or will you now claim that you're a Beta-Zed who can read minds?


Knowledge comes through the senses?  Prove it.

----------


## HVACTech

> So what would be the point exactly of a proof?  Anyone?


you have achieved wisdom.

now, what will you do with it?  

think of it this way..

did your Penis come with any instructions as to use?

----------


## presence

> Knowledge comes through the senses?  Prove it.


http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/dbanach/dcarg.htm




> In order to show that science rested on firm foundations and that these  foundations lay in the mind and not the senses, Descartes began by  bringing into doubt all the beliefs that come to us from the senses. His  aim in these arguments is not really to prove that nothing exists or  that it is impossible for us to know if anything exists (he will prove  that we can know external objects later), but to show that all our  knowledge of these things through the senses is open to  doubt. If our scientific knowledge came to us through the senses, we  could not even be sure that anything outside of us existed. The obvious  implication is that, since we do know that external objects exist, this  knowledge cannot come to us through the senses, but through the mind.

----------


## chrono187

> you have achieved wisdom.
> 
> now, what will you do with it?  
> 
> think of it this way..
> 
> _did your Penis come with any instructions as to use?_


Yeah. As with any Esoteric symbol, there are multiple layers of interpretation.

The G, in Freemasonry, on the Exoteric level, usually means God, or Geometry. On a more Esoteric level, this could also mean Gnosis, or *Generation/Genetics*.

Proof of God is the ability to procreate, and carry on the species. Consciousness of God, could be seen as the ability to procreate, with Forethought. People at the top tend to inbreed, as this keeps the Power and Wealth within the family. They call us Commoners, because we breed in common, like rats.

I think the answer to this should transcend any understanding we have previously held.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/dbanach/dcarg.htm





> If our scientific knowledge came to us through the senses, we could not even be sure that anything outside of us existed. The obvious implication is that, since we do know that external objects exist, this knowledge cannot come to us through the senses, but through the mind.


Great post!

This of course would be the argument of Christian Rationalism (I'm not saying that Descartes was a Christian, but his rationalistic critique is something every Christian can learn from).  What Descartes and others did was to show that empiricists really can't prove anything exists, not even their own sensations.  It's pure solipsism.

----------


## chrono187

http://www.bible-history.com/messian...ame_the_Ch.htm

Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "'The stone  the builders rejected has become the *cornerstone*; the Lord has done  this, and it is marvelous in our eyes'?"

This could be a reference to the legend of Hiram Abiff, or even Lucifer, the stone which the builders rejected- He who was rejected, and cast out of Heaven.

Something tells me the entire story is Freemasonic.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> http://www.bible-history.com/messian...ame_the_Ch.htm
> 
> Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "'The stone  the builders rejected has become the *cornerstone*; the Lord has done  this, and it is marvelous in our eyes'?"
> 
> This could be a reference to the legend of Hiram Abiff, or even Lucifer, the stone which the builders rejected- He who was rejected, and cast out of Heaven.
> 
> Something tells me the entire story is Freemasonic.



No.  The cornerstone is the most important part of the building (the church).  Jesus was talking about Himself.  The Jews have rejected Him.

----------


## chrono187

> No.  The cornerstone is the most important part of the building (the church).  Jesus was talking about Himself.  The Jews have rejected Him.


It's the most important part of any Freemasonic structure. There are rituals, involving corn and oil, used to cap every Masonic creation. Every truly Masonic structure has a cornerstone. The Christ, in scripture, is also called the Chief cornerstone. 

The Freemasons built all of your Cathedrals. For that matter, Freemasons built the majority of Western civilization. If not directly, than indirectly, from their knowledge of architecture and sacred geometry.

----------


## chrono187

By the way, Jesus hated the idea of a "Church", as it represents organized religion. Jesus was more of an Anarchist.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> By the way, Jesus hated the idea of a "Church", as it represents organized religion. Jesus was more of an Anarchist.


I wouldn't say that, but the man made churchianity that has sprung up in these days is certainly not Biblical.

----------


## Christian Liberty

> By the way, Jesus hated the idea of a "Church", as it represents organized religion. Jesus was more of an Anarchist.


Well, Matthew 5:18 seems more theonomic to me

----------


## chrono187

> Well, Matthew 5:18 seems more theonomic to me


The Chief cornerstone in Egypt would have been symbolized by your dollar bill. Imagine the Eye of Horus, or Egyptian pyramid with an uncapped Eye.

The Cornerstone is not capped, because they are waiting for number 13. Jesus was the 13th seat at the table. Jesus had 12 disciples, he was the Center. Christ, is the hand which moves the Zodiac wheel. Think the 12 Signs of the Zodiac, representing the 12 months of a year. Get the picture? Once the Egyptian Christ is found, they will lay the capstone at the Great Pyramid of Giza. That, would be Egypt's version of the coming of their Christ- Horus. Horus was the coming of Christ, or return of the Sun/Son in Egypt. He represented the Rising Sun/Morning Star- Lucifer/Venus. You know, that thing that happens every morning before the Sun comes out?

Start looking at the world around you. We're on a Watery planet orbiting through space. This is all childish allegory. Children could understand these things if they were educated. Public school is there to create a caste of worker bees, that's why they go in those school-buses. What are those colors again?

Start teaching this to your Children:

http://tinypic.com/r/demhdl/8

Manly Palmer Hall, he is referred to as Masonry's greatest Philosopher. Himself, a 33rd degree Mason, understood the dynamics within the higher order of Mystery schools.

----------


## willwash

> So, A=A because A=A? God exists, because God exists?
> 
> We have to do better than this.


Welcome to Sola Land.

----------


## willwash

> You assert that God exists.


He goes waaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond that simple, reasonable, and much more defensible assertion.

Let me see if I can summarize.  All knowledge is derived from books first written by goat herders thousands of years ago then voted into canon by theological councils who had read the books. You cannot, however, acquire this knowledge by READING said books, because doing so would require the use of your senses (whether sight through reading, sound by oral rendition, or touch through Braille), and everyone knows that human senses cannot be used to derive knowledge because that is the fallacy of empiricism.  So the people who wrote these books and the councillors who voted them into canon must actually have had some kind of special ability to absorb the knowledge from the books by magic.  The rest of us just have to accept that they are true, because again you cannot read them yourself because that is empiricism.  Perhaps if I put the bible under my pillow at night I too can absorb the knowledge directly?

Dinosaur bones do not exist.  That is an example of how empiricism is false, since dinosaur bones can't exist, because earth is only 6000 years old.  So what you are seeing as dinosaur bones is actually some kind of hallucination imparted upon you by satan to trick you.  Light from stars farther away than 6000 light years is also a hallucination and does not really exist.  You see how full of examples of the fallacy of empiricism the world is?!  Its amazing how many people just don't get it.  It's like OBi wan kenobi I said, your eyes can deceive you, do not trust them!

That about accurate?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> He goes waaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond that simple, reasonable, and much more defensible assertion.
> 
> Let me see if I can summarize.  All knowledge is derived from books first written by goat herders thousands of years ago then voted into canon by theological councils who had read the books. You cannot, however, acquire this knowledge by READING said books, because doing so would require the use of your senses (whether sight through reading, sound by oral rendition, or touch through Braille), and everyone knows that human senses cannot be used to derive knowledge because that is the fallacy of empiricism.  So the people who wrote these books and the councillors who voted them into canon must actually have had some kind of special ability to absorb the knowledge from the books by magic.  The rest of us just have to accept that they are true, because again you cannot read them yourself because that is empiricism.  Perhaps if I put the bible under my pillow at night I too can absorb the knowledge directly?
> 
> Dinosaur bones do not exist.  That is an example of how empiricism is false, since dinosaur bones can't exist, because earth is only 6000 years old.  So what you are seeing as dinosaur bones is actually some kind of hallucination imparted upon you by satan to trick you.  Light from stars farther away than 6000 light years is also a hallucination and does not really exist.  You see how full of examples of the fallacy of empiricism the world is?!  Its amazing how many people just don't get it.  It's like OBi wan kenobi I said, your eyes can deceive you, do not trust them!
> 
> That about accurate?



No, I don't say any of that.

----------


## VIDEODROME

> The Chief cornerstone in Egypt would have been symbolized by your dollar bill. Imagine the Eye of Horus, or Egyptian pyramid with an uncapped Eye.
> 
> The Cornerstone is not capped, because they are waiting for number 13. Jesus was the 13th seat at the table. Jesus had 12 disciples, he was the Center. Christ, is the hand which moves the Zodiac wheel. Think the 12 Signs of the Zodiac, representing the 12 months of a year. Get the picture? Once the Egyptian Christ is found, they will lay the capstone at the Great Pyramid of Giza. That, would be Egypt's version of the coming of their Christ- Horus. Horus was the coming of Christ, or return of the Sun/Son in Egypt. He represented the Rising Sun/Morning Star- Lucifer/Venus. You know, that thing that happens every morning before the Sun comes out?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> The Chief cornerstone in Egypt would have been symbolized by your dollar bill. Imagine the Eye of Horus, or Egyptian pyramid with an uncapped Eye.
> 
> The Cornerstone is not capped, because they are waiting for number 13. Jesus was the 13th seat at the table. Jesus had 12 disciples, he was the Center. Christ, is the hand which moves the Zodiac wheel. Think the 12 Signs of the Zodiac, representing the 12 months of a year. Get the picture? Once the Egyptian Christ is found, they will lay the capstone at the Great Pyramid of Giza. That, would be Egypt's version of the coming of their Christ- Horus. Horus was the coming of Christ, or return of the Sun/Son in Egypt. He represented the Rising Sun/Morning Star- Lucifer/Venus. You know, that thing that happens every morning before the Sun comes out?
> 
> Start looking at the world around you. We're on a Watery planet orbiting through space. This is all childish allegory. Children could understand these things if they were educated. Public school is there to create a caste of worker bees, that's why they go in those school-buses. What are those colors again?
> 
> Start teaching this to your Children:
> 
> http://tinypic.com/r/demhdl/8
> ...


Uhhhhhhh...ok

----------


## Sonny Tufts

> No, I don't say any of that.


You certainly said some of it, such as denying that knowledge can be obtained through the senses.

But the passage someone quoted involving Christ speaking about the cornerstone is quite revealing: "Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "'The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes'?"

This verse indicates that Christ believed that the persons to whom He was speaking could gain knowledge through the senses (i.e., by reading the Scriptures).  And "it is marvelous in our eyes" is meaningless if we can learn nothing by the use of our eyes.

----------


## VIDEODROME

> The rest of us just have to accept that they are true, because again you cannot read them yourself because that is empiricism.  Perhaps if I put the bible under my pillow at night I too can absorb the knowledge directly?


I wondered if the world of God is absorbed like that through a process similar to osmosis.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> You certainly said some of it, such as denying that knowledge can be obtained through the senses.
> 
> But the passage someone quoted involving Christ speaking about the cornerstone is quite revealing: "Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "'The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes'?"
> 
> This verse indicates that Christ believed that the persons to whom He was speaking could gain knowledge through the senses (i.e., by reading the Scriptures).  And "it is marvelous in our eyes" is meaningless if we can learn nothing by the use of our eyes.


Yes, Jesus said "have you read the Scriptures?"   And those are the same ones who never understood what He said and crucified Him.

Knowledge comes through the senses???

----------


## VIDEODROME

> Yes, Jesus said "have you read the Scriptures?"   And those are the same ones who never understood what He said and crucified Him.
> 
> Knowledge comes through the senses???


I guess not.  

Maybe another way... nom... nom .... nom

----------


## Sola_Fide

> I guess not.  
> 
> Maybe another way... nom... nom .... nom


Funny picture, but how does what Sonny said prove that knowledge comes through the senses?  The Pharisees who crucified Jesus read the Scriptures every day.  Did they have knowledge of truth?   Of course not.  Knowledge of truth is _revelational_.  Knowledge of truth comes from God _alone._

----------


## VIDEODROME

> Funny picture, but how does what Sonny said prove that knowledge comes through the senses?  The Pharisees who crucified Jesus read the Scriptures every day.  Did they have knowledge of truth?   Of course not.  Knowledge of truth is _revelational_.  Knowledge of truth comes from God _alone._


If that is true, then why bother having a Bible?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> If that is true, then why bother having a Bible?


Because God uses the _occasion_ of the sensation to convey (true or false) information to man.  God is completely sovereign over everything,  including the true or false information a man's mind believes.

----------


## willwash

Where does knowledge come from then, if not the senses?  Are you saying knowledge of the intricacies of Christian scripture can be learned a priori?  Also, I have a few more questions I'd like you to weigh in on, or to tell me what the Bible says or what you can infer about what the Bible says about the following:

1)  Do dinosaur bones exist?  How old are they?  
2)  Are fossils of early humanoid species like **** erectus, australopithecus, etc, hoaxes?
3)  How old is the universe, in real, actual years that is?
4)  Is intelligent life on other planets possible?  Do they have access to the scriptures you claim are the fount of all possible knowledge?
5)  If God controls what people believe, is God responsible for the Holocaust?  Is God not, in fact, the direct perpetrator of the Holocaust?

I have a few more but I'm getting harassed at the moment so I'll be back.

eDIT:  I'm not being sarcastic or making fun of anyone.  I really would like to know your position, biblical or otherwise, on these and other questions.

----------


## chrono187

> He goes waaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond that simple, reasonable, and much more defensible assertion.
> Let me see if I can summarize.  All knowledge is derived from books first written by goat herders thousands of years ago then voted into canon by theological councils who had read the books. You cannot, however, acquire this knowledge by READING said books, because doing so would require the use of your senses (whether sight through reading, sound by oral rendition, or touch through Braille), and everyone knows that human senses cannot be used to derive knowledge because that is the fallacy of empiricism.  So the people who wrote these books and the councillors who voted them into canon *must actually have had some kind of special ability to absorb the knowledge from the books by magic.*  The rest of us just have to accept that they are true, because again you cannot read them yourself because that is empiricism. 
> 
> That about accurate?


He is telling you something. Think of the most recent, closest thing to a World empire.. other than America. Now that Rome came to mind, good. What he is telling you is that Kings could not become King without blessing from the Papacy. You could not Rule without first being rubber-stamped by the Vatican. Period. Kings got their "Divine Right" to rule from the Priesthood. The Pope, with his fellowship of Priests, they became the middle-man between you and God. They convinced you that you could not experience the Divine without either their guidance, or blessing. They told you that they were the only Truth. They told you that you can only reach the Father through his Son. They hijacked the religion of Christianity and turned it into Empire. That guy in the White robe claims to be God. The Pope is known as the _Vicar_ of Christ. Well, they say that the Christ is Jesus, but who is the Vicar? The Vicar, in Latin, means one who stands in for, or in place of. Until Jesus returns, God, that is their job. Until God comes back, they will be God as the Pope only "stands in" for Jesus. What if Jesus never returns? Well, then you will be ruled by the Pope for all Eternity. Have fun with that.

 Now, the Vatican, this is institutionalized Witchcraft of the highest order. This is the Priesthood. They have been the power behind every relevant throne since basically forever. Egypt had their own Priesthood. So did Babylon. These were the Learned Men, those who held Knowledge and Discipline in the highest regard. These were the ones who took the time to read those Old books, and institutionalize that Knowledge backed by the power of State. They are History's true actors, though they Govern behind closed doors. They are the Power that you don't know about. They are the Clinton's you don't get to shame, and the Obama's you don't get to poke fun at. You don't even know they exist. They also run the Mafia. Remember those Godfather movies? Who else gets their pinky-ring kissed? MAFIA is actually an acronym. We'll leave that alone for now.

The Priesthood's claim is that because they were wise, diligent, studious, patient, etc.. this is why they have the right to rule you.  Not so much because they are all of those things, but rather, because you are not. Why should they not Rule you? Tell you how to live? You are filthy, degenerate, but above all, ignorant.  You need your Proper's to teach you how to behave. Mankind cannot progress unless you are kept obedient, but most important, scared.

By the way, Shepherding is a Craft. Think of shepherd-dogs and how they interact with sheep. The Priesthood, they are your shepherds. Why do you need shepherds? Because you are being led to the slaughter. You are being fleeced, and eaten. You pay your taxes, then you die.

I hope that didn't sound pessimistic.

Just to clarify, the Vatican is not the Priesthood, but rather, a machination of the Priesthood.

----------


## CPUd

This thread:

https://archive.org/details/WilliamC...omariainvictus





and

----------


## Sola_Fide

> He is telling you something. Think of the most recent, closest thing to a World empire.. other than America. Now that Rome came to mind, good. What he is telling you is that Kings could not become King without blessing from the Papacy. You could not Rule without first being rubber-stamped by the Vatican. Period. Kings got their "Divine Right" to rule from the Priesthood. The Pope, with his fellowship of Priests, they became the middle-man between you and God. They convinced you that you could not experience the Divine without either their guidance, or blessing. They told you that they were the only Truth. They told you that you can only reach the Father through his Son. They hijacked the religion of Christianity and turned it into Empire. That guy in the White robe claims to be God. The Pope is known as the _Vicar_ of Christ. Well, they say that the Christ is Jesus, but who is the Vicar? The Vicar, in Latin, means one who stands in for, or in place of. Until Jesus returns, God, that is their job. Until God comes back, they will be God as the Pope only "stands in" for Jesus. What if Jesus never returns? Well, then you will be ruled by the Pope for all Eternity. Have fun with that.
> 
>  Now, the Vatican, this is institutionalized Witchcraft of the highest order. This is the Priesthood. They have been the power behind every relevant throne since basically forever. Egypt had their own Priesthood. So did Babylon. These were the Learned Men, those who held Knowledge and Discipline in the highest regard. These were the ones who took the time to read those Old books, and institutionalize that Knowledge backed by the power of State. They are History's true actors, though they Govern behind closed doors. They are the Power that you don't know about. They are the Clinton's you don't get to shame, and the Obama's you don't get to poke fun at. You don't even know they exist. They also run the Mafia. Remember those Godfather movies? Who else gets their pinky-ring kissed? MAFIA is actually an acronym. We'll leave that alone for now.
> 
> The Priesthood's claim is that because they were wise, diligent, studious, patient, etc.. this is why they have the right to rule you.  Not so much because they are all of those things, but rather, because you are not. Why should they not Rule you? Tell you how to live? You are filthy, degenerate, you need your Proper's to teach you how to behave. Mankind cannot progress unless you are kept obedient, but most important, scared.
> 
> By the way, Shepherding is a Craft. Think of shepherd-dogs and how they interact with sheep. The Priesthood, they are your shepherds. Why do you need shepherds? Because you are being led to the slaughter. You are being fleeced, and eaten. You pay your taxes, then you die.
> 
> I hope that didn't sound pessimistic.
> ...


Dude, you are off the chain....

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Where does knowledge come from then, if not the senses?


God.





> Are you saying knowledge of the intricacies of Christian scripture can be learned a priori?


Well, you can't "learn something a priori", but I think I understand your question, and the answer is yes.




> Also, I have a few more questions I'd like you to weigh in on, or to tell me what the Bible says or what you can infer about what the Bible says about the following:
> 
> 1)  Do dinosaur bones exist?  How old are they?  
> 2)  Are fossils of early humanoid species like **** erectus, australopithecus, etc, hoaxes?
> 3)  How old is the universe, in real, actual years that is?
> 4)  Is intelligent life on other planets possible?  Do they have access to the scriptures you claim are the fount of all possible knowledge?
> 5)  If God controls what people believe, is God responsible for the Holocaust?  Is God not, in fact, the direct perpetrator of the Holocaust?
> 
> I have a few more but I'm getting harassed at the moment so I'll be back.
> ...


I don't know the answers to any of your questions.

----------


## VIDEODROME

Math is boring

Church is boring

coincidence?

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> He goes waaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond that simple, reasonable, and much more defensible assertion.



I agree; he's pretty off the charts.  Most Christians are nowhere close to his extreme views, at least in my experience.

I think his assertions are all of what you said for several reasons, including a catch 22.  A person is to believe passages like John 3:18, but believing that passage will doing nothing because of God's complete sovereignty.  How's does one recognize God's complete sovereignty?  By reading John 3:18! 

This view is actually an extreme one.  He might even be surprised to learn that's it's unbiblical.  Most Christians are not even like him.  Most will not purposely distort by saying the Arminian view completely denies God's sovereignty.

----------


## chrono187

> I agree; he's pretty off the charts.  Most Christians are nowhere close to *his extreme views*, at least in my experience.
> 
> I think his assertions are all of what you said for several reasons, including a catch 22.  A person is to believe passages like John 3:18, but believing that passage will doing nothing because of God's complete sovereignty.  How's does one recognize God's complete sovereignty?  By reading John 3:18! 
> 
> This view is actually an extreme one.  He might even be surprised to learn that's it's unbiblical.  Most Christians are not even like him.  Most will not purposely distort by saying the Arminian view completely denies God's sovereignty.


I never said I was a Christian, nor did I take a religious position of any kind. You don't have to believe in Jesus to believe in God. Likewise, you don't even have to read the Bible to believe in God. You don't have listen to a Pope, Priest, Pastor, Preacher, Imam, Monk, Shaman, or Ascended Master to reach the Divine. You are unnecessary. Spirituality, and your relationship with said Creation or Creator, is a personal matter. No two beliefs need be alike, and the validity of your beliefs is not incumbent upon others believing them as well.

Please tell me what views I hold which are "extreme"?

Btw, I don't even know what the "Arminian" view is.

----------


## chrono187

The only thing that belief in God requires, is that you fight evil and combat ignorance.

Btw, those are One in the same.

----------


## Terry1

God has a unique way of finding people wherever they're at and whatever they're into.  If you've found God through mathematics--He found you there first.

Physicists, teachers, doctors, lawyers and carpenters--they were all found first because they were never really lost--only gone astray.  If we all believed exactly the same way--then where is the purpose in a witness for Christ?  We are diverse, unique and different from one another for a good reason.  God gives different people different gifts to share and enlighten one another.  The worst that can happen to any of us is to become close minded to those we disagree with--instead we should embrace each others differences and learn why they exist and what purpose they serve.

No matter what you believe in or subscribe to, we are all in this together and on the same journey in search for the truth and in the end--we will all see through the glass clearly and understand why we were so blind in this life.

----------


## Mach

> The only thing that belief in God requires, is that you fight evil and combat ignorance.
> 
> Btw, those are One in the same.


But that's just it, your perception of evil and ignorance will clash with millions of other peoples, here, and around the world, our government is fighting evil all the time. 

Perception

----------


## Sonny Tufts

> Knowledge of truth is _revelational_.  Knowledge of truth comes from God _alone._


Prove it.

And then consider that if knowledge of truth really is revelational, then _as a practical matter_, truth is completely relative because there is absolutely no way to demonstrate whether something is true or not.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Prove it.
> 
> And then consider that if knowledge of truth really is revelational, then _as a practical matter_, truth is completely relative because there is absolutely no way to demonstrate whether something is true or not.


One way to know that your epistemology is, at the very least logically valid, is that it doesn't commit fallacies like asserting the consequent and induction, like empiricism does.

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> Please tell me what views I hold which are "extreme"?


I was referring to Sola_Fide, not you.  If you trace the thread back, then you'll see I was responding to Soda Fudd.  WillWash then responded to my comment about Soda.  I then quoted Will.
.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> I was referring to Sola_Fide, not you.  If you trace the thread back, then you'll see I was responding to Soda Fudd.  WillWash then responded to my comment about Soda.  I then quoted Will.
> .


"Sola_Fudd"?  "Soda"?  How old are you son?

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> "Sola_Fudd"?  "Soda"?  How old are you son?



You can't take a joke?  You said you have thick skin.

You called me a piece of $#@! and told me to go to hell over a dozen times in private comments to me.  You said you were doing that "in love."  You might want to take stock of your own maturity, both as a human and a Christian.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> You can't take a joke?  You said you have thick skin.
> 
> You called me a piece of $#@! and told me to go to hell over a dozen times in private comments to me.  You said you were doing that "in love."  You might want to take stock of your own maturity, both as a human and a Christian.


I never used those words. I said your thoughts and posts were dog feces because that is what they were.  This is in response to a dozen neg reps from you and almost a month of stalking from you.  I told you that I'm not the guy on the forum that you are going to insult.  I fight back.  And I will make you feel dumb if you push me.  Don't take me as the guy you are going to insult just because most of the other people here disagree with my theology.

I really love discussing ideas with members on this forum, mainly because for the most part, they use intellectual arguments and talk about ideas, not middle school personal squabbles like you do.  You've never ONCE attempted to debate me on the issues that we are talking about.   For a month, you thought that you were going to play games with me and insult me by calling me sola fudd and soda, but it really just shows how dumb you are.

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> I never used those words. I said your thoughts and posts were dog feces because that is what they were.  This is in response to a dozen neg reps from you and almost a month of stalking from you.  I told you that I'm not the guy on the forum that you are going to insult.  I fight back.  And I will make you feel dumb if you push me.  Don't take me as the guy you are going to insult just because most of the other people here disagree with my theology.
> 
> I really love discussing ideas with members on this forum, mainly because for the most part, they use intellectual arguments and talk about ideas, not middle school personal squabbles like you do.  You've never ONCE attempted to debate me on the issues that we are talking about.


Really?  Why don't you repeat ALL your insults?  Or, should I post it all again?  Maybe you are you counting on it to be erased by the moderators again?  And I don't even care what you call me, but you had the gall to say it was "in love."  That is why I neg repped you.  For phoniness.

No, I don't "gang up" on people.  Don't try to play the groupthink card.  I'm critical of you alone because you constantly attempt to bait people and--as you say--try to make them "feel dumb."  You also get negged when you play these games with people.  

I have given you ample opportunity to debate me, with the latest examples being the Catholic view on salvation and the cosmological proof.  You continually decline, neg rep me, call me an "idiot," "moron," "retard," and told me to "go to hell" multiple times.  Yes, all "in love," of course.  












> For a month, you thought that you were going to play games with me and insult me by calling me sola fudd and soda,...





> "Sola_Fudd"?  "Soda"?  How old are you son?


I've been saying Soda for a month, so why are you now pretending to be surprised?  You even made a joke about it last week, calling yourself _the old Fudd Meister._

It's almost a parody, so why bring it up now?  It's because you're grasping because you can't debate me.

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> Don't take me as the guy you are going to insult just because most of the other people here disagree with my theology.


I don't insult you.  I neg you for piss poor behavior.  The link below is one of countless examples.  I could not care less about your "theology."  I could not care less about how others disagree with your views.

Lily made a thread asking for testimonials/inspirational stories.  HB replied.  You then jumped on HB in 15 minutes.  You inaccurately characterized his post as a testimonial because of your infinite penchant to internet preach.  I was going to call you out for attempting to pervert that thread, but I did not want to ruin it.   



You do this ALL the time.  You can dish it out, but you can't take it.


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...hristians-here

----------


## Sonny Tufts

> One way to know that your epistemology is, at the very least logically valid, is that it doesn't commit fallacies like asserting the consequent and induction, like empiricism does.


Logical validity doesn't guarantee truth, because it all depends on the truth of the premises that one begins with. A perfectly valid syllogism may nevertheless lead to a patently false conclusion:

"2 + 2 =5" is a mathematical truth.
Mathematical truths are not absurd.
"2 + 2 = 5" is not absurd.

The syllogism is valid; the conclusion is false.

Consider:  A claims that the Bible is the revealed word of God. How does he know this? Let's assume he also claims that God revealed this to him in some fashion. B claims that God revealed to him that the Bible is a tool of Satan, designed to mislead people into believing things that aren't true.  C doesn't claim that God has revealed anything to him, but he wants to know if either A's or B's claims are true.  How in the world can he do this if all truth is revealed by God?  Is he supposed to wait around to experience something that convinces him that God is speaking to him and telling him something that is Truth?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Logical validity doesn't guarantee truth, because it all depends on the truth of the premises that one begins with. A perfectly valid syllogism may nevertheless lead to a patently false conclusion:
> 
> "2 + 2 =5" is a mathematical truth.
> Mathematical truths are not absurd.
> "2 + 2 = 5" is not absurd.
> 
> The syllogism is valid; the conclusion is false.
> 
> Consider:  A claims that the Bible is the revealed word of God. How does he know this? Let's assume he also claims that God revealed this to him in some fashion. B claims that God revealed to him that the Bible is a tool of Satan, designed to mislead people into believing things that aren't true.  C doesn't claim that God has revealed anything to him, but he wants to know if either A's or B's claims are true.  How in the world can he do this if all truth is revealed by God?  Is he supposed to wait around to experience something that convinces him that God is speaking to him and telling him something that is Truth?


I agree, but if your presuppositions _]cannot but_ lead to logical fallacies when you reason from them, then you can know you don't have a worldview adequate to answer these intellectual questions.  This is what you have with empiricism.

----------


## chrono187

> Consider:  A claims that the Bible is the revealed word of God. How does he know this? Let's assume he also claims that God revealed this to him in some fashion. B claims that God revealed to him that the Bible is a tool of Satan, designed to mislead people into believing things that aren't true.  C doesn't claim that God has revealed anything to him, but he wants to know if either A's or B's claims are true.  How in the world can he do this if all truth is revealed by God?  Is he supposed to wait around to experience something that convinces him that God is speaking to him and telling him something that is Truth?


For some reason, quantum theory comes to mind. What if, C, can come to either conclusion- but it depends which door he walks through. Think of those old movies with numbered doors, uncertain futures on the other side. If Door A  in this case represents Christianity, and Door B represents Evangelism, which door will lead him to Light? I think discernment is be required. A wise man is not wise as a result of knowledge, but rather how he manifests that knowledge in his Life. In other words, if he exercised discernment, his unique faculty of reason, which of those 2 doors is most likely to have Truth on the other side?

Life, this is something animating.

----------


## Mach

> For some reason, quantum theory comes to mind. What if, C, can come to either conclusion- but it depends which door he walks through. Think of those old movies with numbered doors, uncertain futures on the other side. If Door A  in this case represents Christianity, and Door B represents Evangelism, which door will lead him to Light? I think discernment is be required. A wise man is not wise as a result of knowledge, but rather how he manifests that knowledge in his Life. In other words, if he exercised discernment, his unique faculty of reason, which of those 2 doors is most likely to have Truth on the other side?
> 
> Life, this is something animating.


Truth on the other side of 2 doors........ maybe there aren't any doors......

----------


## Ronin Truth

E = mc2 
Amen.

----------


## Sonny Tufts

> I agree, but if your presuppositions _]cannot but_ lead to logical fallacies when you reason from them, then you can know you don't have a worldview adequate to answer these intellectual questions.  This is what you have with empiricism.


But your view is even worse, because the assumptions are purely arbitrary.  In other words, since there is no way to show what God has actually revealed one person's claim is as valid as another, so long as it is logically consistent.  That's why your view of truth leads to relativism.

----------


## osan

> I agree, but if your presuppositions _]cannot but_ lead to logical fallacies when you reason from them, then you can know you don't have a worldview adequate to answer these intellectual questions.  *This is what you have with empiricism*.


It should be fairly obvious that the _use of observation_ ("empiricism") is prone to failure because we are so prone.  Being a method, as well as a basic philosophical view, empiricism is of necessity prone to error.  By our very nature we appear to be prone to this when we are not careful in our habits of intellect in a given case, or when the problem at hand is of such a nature that the sufficiency of our _God-given_ senses proves tricky, at best.  It appears, then, that we agree at least in some measure.  My question, then, is: what is your point, precisely?

----------


## chrono187

Here's the bottom line. If A and B, a bee is the only thing the exist and you harm it, the wrath is unimaginable. 

A  and B represent two individual, independent, yet different people- both  shielded by equal Law. The Law is something which protects the  individual, in a dejure Anarchy. A cannot compel any action from B, and  cannot, by physical force, forbid said action. The initiation of the use  of physical force is Wrong. If this is something we can all agree on,  we can move forward. That means an Evolution, in place of revolution.

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within  limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add  ‘within the limits of the law’ because law is often but the tyrant’s  will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." - Thomas Jefferson

No  more Circles, no more 360 degrees of Circular EVERYTHING. No, but in  order to elevate, that requires meaningful change. That requires Water,  in the alchemical sense.  Bee, the Universe, cannot Rightfully compel  action by virtue of  deception, intentional or otherwise. A and B are shielded by an equal  understanding that everyone is different. Law should reflect the Rights  of the individual, not the will of the Legislature. Legislative decree,  known as "Statute", is one group of men assuming ownership over the Labor  of another group of Men. This is, at the Root, Lawyers assuming  ownership over Carpenters. 

A bee wins by spelling. This is why  you have Spelling B's in School. You do magic by casting SPELLS. You are  owned by wordviths, those who are Literary, and some even Literate.

If you want to understand what this is all about, listen to this guy:

http://marcstevens.net/

----------


## Sola_Fide

> But your view is even worse, because the assumptions are purely arbitrary.  In other words, since there is no way to show what God has actually revealed one person's claim is as valid as another, so long as it is logically consistent.  That's why your view of truth leads to relativism.


I don't say that at all.  The propositions of God's Word and all the necessary deductions from those propositions are the standard for truth.  It's not arbitrary at all.  You _only_ have an arbitrary standard with empirical arguments.

----------


## chrono187

By the way, most people, who Work, their time is very relative to their urn-ings. If they are stuck in court on some bogus traffic or marijuana ticket/case, the theft of their urn-ings, is, in an alchemical sense, ownership over their body.

If I want to smoke pot, or smoke pot in the privacy of my own Home. $#@! off. If I screw up on the road, shame me, don't steal my $#@!. 

DO YOU UNDERSTAND*?* - (I don't know who I'm talking to, but I know it's someone velenant)

Although you are Relevant, you do NOT own MY Body.

----------


## chrono187

This doesn't mean smoke pot and drive a car. Fear breeds hysteria, that other guy thinks you could be high. He, then, screws up his own maneuvering in his panic. The others ones will do anything, including murder road-rage, imagining you being drunk.

Exercise discretion, and prudent judgement. It could all be so easy.

I feel like I'm just talking to myself now.

----------


## Terry1

I actually believe that there's a lot of truth in numerology, but I also believe that it's far too often interpreted wrongly.  God is all about numbers and I'm sure He has one in mind when the level of depravity in this world reaches that number too.  I just wouldn't want to try and guess at it.

----------


## Sonny Tufts

> I don't say that at all.  The propositions of God's Word and all the necessary deductions from those propositions are the standard for truth.  It's not arbitrary at all.  You _only_ have an arbitrary standard with empirical arguments.


As usual, you miss the point.  How can you prove to someone else what God's revealed truth is?  You simply assume it's the Bible, but you cannot prove it.  Someone else might assume something else is God's revealed truth, but he wouldn't be able to prove it, either.  That's why your defining truth as what God has revealed will lead to arbitrary results, because even if one accepts your definition of Truth there is no objective standard to determine what God has, in fact, revealed.

Arguments derived from empirical observations are hardly arbitrary.  In fact, unlike the many disagreements people have regarding theological matters (not to mention the many different interpretations of the Bible), there is a general unanimity on the basics of everyday experience.  If I were to drop an object, almost everyone on the planet would report that it fell to the ground.  They may disagree on why it fell, but they would agree that it did fall.  That isn't arbitrary at all.

If you're correct that Truth is what God has revealed, you would think that He would have done so in a way so that most would agree on what was revealed -- like maybe through people's sense experiences.  While mere consensus doesn't establish what's true, it's fair to say that there is much more agreement on the results of sense experience than there is trying to determine (a) if there's a God, (b) what He revealed, and (c) what His revelation means.

----------


## Ronin Truth

Does Daniel's seal have a name? Or can I just call him Flipper?

----------


## wizardwatson

> I actually believe that there's a lot of truth in numerology, but I also believe that it's far too often interpreted wrongly.  God is all about numbers and I'm sure He has one in mind when the level of depravity in this world reaches that number too.  I just wouldn't want to try and guess at it.


The bible is encoded, INTENTIONALLY.  Hebrew is a numerically coded language.  If you do some research you'll see that the english language is also.

Not only is the bible encoded in mystery and prophecy it specifically calls out people who understand numerology to interpret it.




> Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. *Let him that hath understanding count the number* of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.


It's verse 18 for instance, 3 6's.  
It's chapter 13 and 13 and 18 is 31, the mirror of 13.  

These things by themselves are meaningless.  But the paths and connections they make form a map.

So it isn't that "numerology" is God's language or God somehow dabbling in black magic.  It's just something He uses to encode scripture.

----------


## Sonny Tufts

Speaking of numbers, this Saturday is a sort of Super Pi Day: 3/14/15.  It's also Einstein's birthday.

----------


## chrono187

> I actually believe that there's a lot of truth in  numerology, but I also believe that it's far too often interpreted  wrongly.  God is all about numbers and I'm sure He has one in mind when  the level of depravity in this world reaches that number too.  I just  wouldn't want to try and guess at it.


If you are Biblical minded, He already did.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...Revelation%207

I  take all of this stuff with a grain of salt, or forethought towards  discretion. What if God is a complete maniac, obsessed with numbers, and  he sees his own plan unraveling. What if the people dying, this is God,  numerically, removing their portion, or deposition, from the final Equation?  What if God is replacing numbers with imagination- imagery, ambition,  design, creativity, heart, and design.

What if YOU ARE LIVING ORGANISM TRAVELING THE COSMOS. GROUND IS EARTH. YOU ARE FLOATING IN SPACE. LOOK AT THE STARS> not the ones you are imagining, but the ones UP THERE. 

Celebrity  worship is directly relative to a galactic science of Nordic  enslavement. K? Research the Teutonic Knights. Get a feel for the  Mountain people- Odinists. The EMPIRE builders. The Germanic, Nazi, or  Ashke_nazi_ people_.

_These people run the world. Imagine the cunning intelligence of real Jews, and the shrewd ambition of Germanic Tribe.

THIS IS GAME OF THRONES.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ne8evc&s=8#.VP3uY-Fsnc0

----------


## Sola_Fide

> As usual, you miss the point.  How can you prove to someone else what God's revealed truth is?  You simply assume it's the Bible, but you cannot prove it.  Someone else might assume something else is God's revealed truth, but he wouldn't be able to prove it, either.  That's why your defining truth as what God has revealed will lead to arbitrary results, because even if one accepts your definition of Truth there is no objective standard to determine what God has, in fact, revealed.


You can't "prove" God's existence.  There can't be "proof" of a first principle or axiom of thought.  But these are the things that we must take as true in order to reason.  When the infallibility of the senses is taken as an axiom of thought, the only thing that can flow from that are illogical arguments that assert the consequent and engage in the fallacy of induction. 





> Arguments derived from empirical observations are hardly arbitrary.  In fact, unlike the many disagreements people have regarding theological matters (not to mention the many different interpretations of the Bible), there is a general unanimity on the basics of everyday experience.  If I were to drop an object, almost everyone on the planet would report that it fell to the ground.  They may disagree on why it fell, but they would agree that it did fall.  That isn't arbitrary at all.


Have you experienced all falling objects?  If you haven't, then all you have are fallacious inductive arguments.

How do you prove that the object you think is falling even exists?  By your senses?  How do you prove those sensations?  By more of your sensations?  How do you ever get past your sensations to the "real" world?






> If you're correct that Truth is what God has revealed, you would think that He would have done so in a way so that most would agree on what was revealed -- like maybe through people's sense experiences.  While mere consensus doesn't establish what's true, it's fair to say that there is much more agreement on the results of sense experience than there is trying to determine (a) if there's a God, (b) what He revealed, and (c) what His revelation means.


No.  You are taking the disagreement of mankind on God's existence as some kind of reason that God is deficient in the way He has revealed Himself.  But the Biblical assertion is that it is God's INTENT that some men believe falsities.  God is completely sovereign over the beliefs of man, whether they be true beliefs or false beliefs.  God INTENDS that some men believe lies and go away to destruction.

----------


## osan

> You can't "prove" God's existence.


Sure you can, depending on the operating definition of "God".




> There can't be "proof" of a first principle or axiom of thought.


No?  Could you provide an example?




> But these are the things that we must take as true in order to reason.


Once again, I would ask for a definitive example.

----------


## Terry1

> If you are Biblical minded, He already did.
> 
> https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...Revelation%207
> 
> I  take all of this stuff with a grain of salt, or forethought towards  discretion. What if God is a complete maniac, obsessed with numbers, and  he sees his own plan unraveling. What if the people dying, this is God,  numerically, removing their portion, or deposition, from the final Equation?  What if God is replacing numbers with imagination- imagery, ambition,  design, creativity, heart, and design.
> 
> What if YOU ARE LIVING ORGANISM TRAVELING THE COSMOS. GROUND IS EARTH. YOU ARE FLOATING IN SPACE. LOOK AT THE STARS> not the ones you are imagining, but the ones UP THERE. 
> 
> Celebrity  worship is directly relative to a galactic science of Nordic  enslavement. K? Research the Teutonic Knights. Get a feel for the  Mountain people- Odinists. The EMPIRE builders. The Germanic, Nazi, or  Ashke_nazi_ people_.
> ...


Not sure what you mean by "real Jews".  Scientists argue over what percentage of the brain is actually used in a day too.  There's all sort of myths and legends out there to buy into which should send anyone with any real cunning intelligence fired by wisdom running back to the only thing that makes any sense at all in light of the *big picture*.   Pascal was also a mathematician and philosopher who's "cunning intelligence" led him to create the famous wager out of nothing more than common sense.  *Better to believe and be safe than sorry*---Lol

----------


## Sonny Tufts

> Have you experienced all falling objects?  If you haven't, then all you have are fallacious inductive arguments.


You missed the point again.  I didn't say the object would fall if dropped again.  I said the people who were there when I dropped the object would all agree that it DID drop. The fact that people usually have identical sense experiences refutes your claim that empiricism is an arbitrary standard.

Incidentally, if you really think empiricism is solipsism, just who exactly do you think you're exchanging posts with?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Sure you can, depending on the operating definition of "God".
> 
> 
> 
> No?  Could you provide an example?
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, I would ask for a definitive example.


Many of you here have just not considered the presuppositional nature of argumentation.

If you say something like "the use of logic or reason is the only valid way to examine the truth or falsity of any statement which claims to be factual", how do you prove this statement itself?

If you say that the statement is true by logic or reason, then you are engaging in circular reasoning and begging the question.  If you say that the statement is proven in some other way, then you refute the statement itself...that logic or reason is the ONLY way to prove things.

----------


## wizardwatson

> If you're correct that Truth is what God has revealed, you would think that He would have done so in a way so that most would agree on what was revealed -- like maybe through people's sense experiences. While mere consensus doesn't establish what's true, it's fair to say that there is much more agreement on the results of sense experience than there is trying to determine (a) if there's a God, (b) what He revealed, and (c) what His revelation means.
> 			
> 		
> 
> No.  You are taking the disagreement of mankind on God's existence as some kind of reason that God is deficient in the way He has revealed Himself.  But the Biblical assertion is that it is God's INTENT that some men believe falsities.  God is completely sovereign over the beliefs of man, whether they be true beliefs or false beliefs.  God INTENDS that some men believe lies and go away to destruction.


It amazes me how few people grasp what you said.

Why can't I see God?

Well, first step is to actually be looking for Him.  Before that step though you can't assume you already know Him which people do almost universally.  He is hidden but if you seek you will find.  But God is under to obligation to reveal himself - in whatever way - according to your timeline or conditions.  It must be an unconditional seeking.

People can't fathom a God who would rely on word of mouth to accomplish his goals because they can't fathom a God who allows suffering and yet controls things to such a degree that he has numbered the hairs on your head.

People, though they almost never admit it, are offended by the true God.  They project that offense onto those who believe using their pseudo-scientific mockery.  They do this because of their pride.  And their pride is a curse resulting from sin.

The advice then is the same advice as always.  Seek God and stop sinning.  Which is to say, repent and ask God for the strength to stop sinning.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> You missed the point again.  I didn't say the object would fall if dropped again.  I said the people who were there when I dropped the object would all agree that it DID drop. The fact that people usually have identical sense experiences refutes your claim that empiricism is an arbitrary standard.


This is the fallacy of induction.  Universal propositions can never be validly obtained from observation.



> Induction is the attempt to derive a general law from particular instances. Science is necessarily inductive. For example, if a scientist is studying crows, he might observe 999 crows and find that they all are black. But is he ever able to assert that all crows are black? No; the next crow he observes might be an albino. One can never observe all crows: past, present, and future. Universal propositions can never be validly obtained by observation. Hence, science can never give us true statements.

----------


## Biblefundyfun

> Seal of Daniel
> 
> All existence is comprised of Shape  and Matter. The physical realm, or plane, consists of only Four basic-  or rudimentary shapes. When these shapes are intertwined, we begin see  patterns and Matter- known as Archetypes. They lay the foundation for  the entire Universe outside, and within us. These basic shapes are,  simply, the Circle(O), Square(☐), Triangle(△), and Line(~). Everything  you see around you, all Matter, is made up of these shapes. This is  found in the principles of Sacred Geometry. All shapes are  mathematically connected to each other, and create some pretty  interesting patterns when placed together, in synchronicity- union.
> 
> 
> 
> As  you know, a Circle has 360 degrees, or points of Light. A Square has  four corners, perfect 90° angles within each corner. It also has four  sides. If you add up the corners, mathematically, it equals that of a  Circle- which is 360°. 90x4=360. Now, a triangle has only 3 corners, and  3 sides. Each of those corners are measured at 60°, if it is a perfect  triangle. 60x3=180, which is half of, and thus measurably equated to  360. Perfect Symmetry. When you start dividing, and thus multiplying the  Square, we notice some pretty interesting symbols. Ancient symbols, the  Mystery archetypes. This is the foundation of all Magic and sorcery.
> 
> The  first symbol you may notice is the Square and Compass, the Freemasonry  symbol. This is also an ancient symbol of Fertility; sexual union. The  triangle pointing up ^ represents the Yang, (Fire, Masculine) or  Creative Force within the Universe. Athame. The V represents Yin, Water,  the Divine Feminine, or Dark but receptive Force in the Universe. It is  also shaped like a cup, that which holds water, the Chalice, or Womb.  When merged, we get what can be recognized today as the international  symbol of Freemasonry; Absent the G.
> ...


Ivan Panin discovered a clearly divine mathematical structure in the Hebrew and Greek scripture that proves beyond cavil that Gods word is God breathed. You will enjoy his work immensely.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Ivan Panin discovered a clearly divine mathematical structure in the Hebrew and Greek scripture that proves beyond cavil that Gods word is God breathed. You will enjoy his work immensely.


Biblefundyfun?  Numerology is not Biblical.

----------


## wizardwatson

> Biblefundyfun?  Numerology is not Biblical.


Yes, it is.  See my post #253.

----------


## Biblefundyfun

> Biblefundyfun?  Numerology is not Biblical.


The greek and Hebrew languages do not have numerals. They have letters with a numerical value. It's more a type of letterology so to speak. I agree the occult form of numerology is against Gods will. That said, we do not need this in addition to scripture on face value for the revelation truth of salvation, however it is further proof scientific and mathematical proof to counfound those who mock the divine inspiration of scripture. Each snow flake is a mathematical wonder, should Gods word not be also?

----------


## wizardwatson

> Many of you here have just not considered the presuppositional nature of argumentation.
> 
> If you say something like "the use of logic or reason is the only valid way to examine the truth or falsity of any statement which claims to be factual", how do you prove this statement itself?
> 
> If you say that the statement is true by logic or reason, then you are engaging in circular reasoning and begging the question.  If you say that the statement is proven in some other way, then you refute the statement itself...that logic or reason is the ONLY way to prove things.


Furthermore, Godel showed that any axiomatic set based system can yield true statements that cannot be proven without creating a new superset, and so on, and so on.

Any system of formal logic applied to any system that can be represented mathematically is perpetually incomplete.  This is mathematical law.

This rabbit hole of using particle accelerators to find the "God particle" is a never-ending spiral.  The universe cannot be represented mathematically.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> The greek and Hebrew languages do not have numerals. They have letters with a numerical value. It's more a type of letterology so to speak. I agree the occult form of numerology is against Gods will. That said, we do not need this in addition to scripture on face value for the revelation truth of salvation, however it is further proof scientific and mathematical proof to counfound those who mock the divine inspiration of scripture. Each snow flake is a mathematical wonder, should Gods word not be also?


Trying to find all of these secret codes in the Bible is wrong too.  This is what nuts like Harold Camping do when they try to predict the end of the world.  And then the world doesn't end and they look like morons.

----------


## Biblefundyfun

Well, I didn't try to find them. Ivan Panin spent his whole life on the work so I didn't have to. The pattern is there my friend, it is documented fact. I've read and studied all of his work. But I was a believer for decades before I ever heard of Panin. Very few churchmen of his time accepted his findings to be of any value, but he was godly Christian man. Further more, we do not know the  day or the hour, but we have very good idea of the year when CHRIST will return. The rapture will happen in about eleven years time and then the tribulation. 2033 - 7 = 2026 don't worry I already know I'm nuts. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kQPFRv7XB2E

Dereck Believes Christians can lose their salvation, so he may very we'll be wrong about this too. Nevertheless this is fascinating stuff. Check it out.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Well, I didn't try to find them. Ivan Panin spent his whole life on the work so I didn't have to. The pattern is there my friend, it is documented fact. I've read and studied all of his work. But I was a believer for decades before I ever heard of Panin. Very few churchmen of his time accepted his findings to be of any value, but he was godly Christian man. Further more, we do not know the  day or the hour, but we have very good idea of the year when CHRIST will return. The rapture will happen in about eleven years time and then the tribulation. 2033 - 7 = 2026 don't worry I already know I'm nuts.


So when that year comes, and the world doesn't end, what are you going to do?

----------


## Biblefundyfun

the world does not end after the tribulation. After that is the one thousand year rein of Christ on Earth. When satan is chained for a thousand years. When we enter into the lords rest. Then satan is released again for the final battle, then this world will be burned and the new heaven and the new earth is created. We have a long way to go before the end of this world as we know it.

----------


## Sonny Tufts

> Universal propositions can never be validly obtained by observation. Hence, science can never give us true statements.


The second sentence doesn't follow from the first.  From the truth of the first one can conclude only that science can never give us provably true statements.

The truth of the first also means that universal propositions can't be validly obtained by reading the Bible.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> The second sentence doesn't follow from the first.  From the truth of the first one can conclude only that science can never give us provably true statements.
> 
> The truth of the first also means that universal propositions can't be validly obtained by reading the Bible.


I AGREE with you.  Universal propositions cannot be validly obtained from sense perceptions when reading the Bible.  That is what I've been saying to you over and over again.  That is YOUR empirical worldview talking, not mine.

----------


## chrono187

> the world does not end after the tribulation. After that is the one thousand year rein of Christ on Earth. When satan is chained for a thousand years. When we enter into the lords rest. Then satan is released again for the final battle, then this world will be burned and the new heaven and the new earth is created. We have a long way to go before the end of this world as we know it.


The world does not end. It never ends. What happens, is the world ends as we Know it. The event of December 21, 2012- allow me to paint you a picture. You may have heard that all the planets would be in alignment on that day, remember? Imagine the Zodiac, then dream Pisces and Aquarius. They are right next to each other on the wheel, imagine this wheel as a Clock. The Zodiac wheel is a big Cosmic clock. On December 21, 2012, the Clock struck midnight. Imagine all those planets in perfect alignment as one big hand. That large hand was pointing the space between Pisces and Aquarius. Every day that followed led us into this new age. We have moved from the Age of Pisces, to the Age of Aquarius.

You ever heard any of those recent pop songs talking about the "New Age"? Well, this is it.

They are doing out with the old, and bringing in the New. Say goodbye to Jesus and the Age of Pisces. Say hello to the Age of Aquarius, and whatever that brings.

----------


## Mr Tansill

> Prove it.
> 
> And then consider that if knowledge of truth really is revelational, then _as a practical matter_, truth is completely relative because there is absolutely no way to demonstrate whether something is true or not.


Boom. I love statements as simple as this that create an inescapable conclusion. +rep.




> But your view is even worse, because the assumptions are purely arbitrary.  In other words, since there is no way to show what God has actually revealed one person's claim is as valid as another, so long as it is logically consistent.  That's why your view of truth leads to relativism.


Amen. Revelation, wrote Paine, is "revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other; and consequently, they are not obliged to believe it." It is this statement which so succinctly captures the necessity of _argument_ and _reason_ in the development of a moral system, and is why any religious text must be taken with a grain of salt, and subjected to question like everything else - such is the scientific method.




> It should be fairly obvious that the _use of observation_ ("empiricism") is prone to failure because we are so prone.  Being a method, as well as a basic philosophical view, empiricism is of necessity prone to error.  By our very nature we appear to be prone to this when we are not careful in our habits of intellect in a given case, or when the problem at hand is of such a nature that the sufficiency of our _God-given_ senses proves tricky, at best.  It appears, then, that we agree at least in some measure.  My question, then, is: what is your point, precisely?


Yes, we _are_ prone to error, but empirical science is subject to _objective_ critique, alternative theory, and most importantly, _testing_ and therefore _confirmation_. Empirical science has brought us from thinking the Earth was the center of the universe to walking on the moon in a mere 400 years. We have no greater tool for discovery than those which science has given us.




> As usual, you miss the point.  How can you prove to someone else what God's revealed truth is?  You simply assume it's the Bible, but *you cannot prove it.  Someone else might assume something else is God's revealed truth, but he wouldn't be able to prove it, either*.  That's why your defining truth as what God has revealed will lead to arbitrary results, because even if one accepts your definition of Truth *there is no objective standard* to determine what God has, in fact, revealed.
> 
> Arguments derived from empirical observations are hardly arbitrary.  In fact, unlike the many disagreements people have regarding theological matters (not to mention the many different interpretations of the Bible), there is a general unanimity on the basics of everyday experience.  If I were to drop an object, almost everyone on the planet would report that it fell to the ground.  They may disagree on why it fell, but they would agree that it did fall.  That isn't arbitrary at all.
> 
> *If you're correct that Truth is what God has revealed, you would think that He would have done so in a way so that most would agree on what was revealed* -- like maybe through people's sense experiences.  While mere consensus doesn't establish what's true, it's fair to say that there is much more agreement on the results of sense experience than there is trying to determine (a) if there's a God, (b) what He revealed, and (c) what His revelation means.


Once again, spot on. All the arguments that are being used are actually the same on both sides - it's just a different authority each side is appealing to. The religious among us appeal to _revealed_ truth, The Bible, God's word, etc. The empiricists among us are appealing to observation, theory, prediction, verification (or correction), and then observation.

----------


## Biblefundyfun

True Sicientific endeavour is the search for truth, true science and the bible are in complete agreement with each other.

----------


## chrono187

Though, it is peculiar that, on the Zodiac wheel, Aquarius comes before Pisces. 

Maybe there is more to the story?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> The second sentence doesn't follow from the first.  From the truth of the first one can conclude only that science can never give us provably true statements.


Yes it does follow.  Science itself is based on inductive arguments and empiricism.

----------


## Biblefundyfun

Boom. Lol. To say truth can not be demonstrated is a false statement. A lie, so why the Boom?

----------


## Mr Tansill

> You can't "prove" God's existence.  *There can't be "proof" of a first principle or axiom of thought.*  But these are the things that we must take as true in order to reason.  When the infallibility of the senses is taken as an axiom of thought, the only thing that can flow from that are illogical arguments that assert the consequent and engage in the fallacy of induction.
> 
> *Have you experienced all falling objects?  If you haven't, then all you have are fallacious inductive arguments.*
> 
> How do you prove that the object you think is falling even exists?  By your senses?  How do you prove those sensations?  By more of your sensations?  How do you ever get past your sensations to the "real" world?
> 
> No.  You are taking the disagreement of mankind on God's existence as some kind of reason that God is deficient in the way He has revealed Himself.  But the Biblical assertion is that it is God's INTENT that some men believe falsities.  God is completely sovereign over the beliefs of man, whether they be true beliefs or false beliefs.  *God INTENDS that some men believe lies and go away to destruction.*


You're correct in that axioms cannot be proven. I take it from your preceding sentence that you take God's existence as axiomatic? Is that right? Reading your final statements also leads me to that perception.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that senses are infallible...what people say is that by the cycle of observation, theory, prediction, confirmation (or invalidation), they initiate a repetitive cycle whereby the truth is successively narrowed in upon over the course of time. In fact, you don't have to start with observation - you could start with a theory if you liked, and pick up the process on that step - doesn't make a difference. And the criterion you lay out isn't a reason to not accept a theory - of course no one could ever hope to examine or experience "every falling object." If someone did experience something that ran counter to an accepted theory, that would become a _counter-example_ and would require and adjustment to the theory that was in question.

I will say, though, that you lose me when you affirm "God INTENDS for some people to be destroyed..." Could a loving God ever do such a thing? Could love ever leave us alone?

----------


## Biblefundyfun

I think you mean the age of hilarious my friend.  As a bible fundy, scripture is my plumb line, not the zodiac. But to each his own.

----------


## Mr Tansill

> Boom. Lol. To say truth can not be demonstrated is a false statement. A lie, so why the Boom?


I should clarify: I do think truth is veritable.

I used to the term "Boom" to point out how the affirmation that truth can only be revealed leads inevitably to _relativism_, which would lead to systems which would contradict each other and an inconsistent value system. Inconsistent systems can be used to demonstrate _anything_ is true - in a moral system, this would mean that _any_ action could be justified. An example in Mathematics is when you attempt to divide by zero. When you execute that _illegal operation_ you can then demonstrate that any number is equal to any other - which undermines the meaning of the ' = ' relation - it destroys language in a sense.

So yes, to say truth cannot be demonstrated _is_ a false statement (a lie), but it is a valid conclusion which is derived from the incorrect premise that _truth can only be revealed_.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> You're correct in that axioms cannot be proven. I take it from your preceding sentence that you take God's existence as axiomatic? Is that right? Reading your final statements also leads me to that perception.
> 
> I don't think anyone is suggesting that senses are infallible...what people say is that by the cycle of observation, theory, prediction, confirmation (or invalidation), they initiate a repetitive cycle whereby the truth is successively narrowed in upon over the course of time. In fact, you don't have to start with observation - you could start with a theory if you liked, and pick up the process on that step - doesn't make a difference. And the criterion you lay out isn't a reason to not accept a theory - of course no one could ever hope to examine or experience "every falling object." If someone did experience something that ran counter to an accepted theory, that would become a _counter-example_ and would require and adjustment to the theory that was in question.


That's right.  No one has universal observations of falling objects, therefore universal propositions based on observations cannot ever validly obtained.





> I will say, though, that you lose me when you affirm "God INTENDS for some people to be destroyed..." Could a loving God ever do such a thing? Could love ever leave us alone?


God is loving, but He is also just.

----------


## Biblefundyfun

No worries, I love the Boom, phrase. The bible is revelation fact from above. God breathed God given etc. Secular Science, in most instances, is on a long winded, expensive, wasteful journey to verify and or falsify said divinely revealed fact/truth. They call the bible a collection of myths whilst seeking "goldilocks" planets for us to eventually inhabit. Okay cool, when they come back with some porridge from one of three bears or even a spoon, if the porridge is all eaten, then I  may be inclined to buy into the fairy tale. Boom. God bless you.

----------


## Mr Tansill

> Many of you here have just not considered the presuppositional nature of argumentation.
> 
> If you say something like "the use of logic or reason is the only valid way to examine the truth or falsity of any statement which claims to be factual", how do you prove this statement itself?
> 
> If you say that the statement is true by logic or reason, then you are engaging in circular reasoning and begging the question.  If you say that the statement is proven in some other way, then you refute the statement itself...that logic or reason is the ONLY way to prove things.


I'll admit that I know nothing of Presuppositional apologetics (is that what you are?) But this is the description from the Wikipedia page:




> Presuppositionalism is *a school of Christian apologetics that believes the Christian faith is the only basis for rational thought. It presupposes that the Bible is divine revelation* and attempts to expose flaws in other worldviews.


I think I know what you're getting at and why you call argumentation "presuppositional" in nature. From the Wikipedia article on presupposition, it makes it clear that _presuppositions_ are those things that are assumed at the outright. In other words, the starting point for launching down a path of argument.




> In the branch of linguistics known as pragmatics, *a presupposition (or ps) is an implicit assumption about the world or background belief relating to an utterance whose truth is taken for granted in discourse*.


Now, if you're going to argue with people about the _outcomes_ of arguments which are derived from those axioms (or assumptions), then it makes sense to me to go ahead and argue away. Have a nut. If, on the other hand, you're going to argue about things which come _before_ arriving at such "high level" assumptions, it probably makes sense to argue from statements of truth that precede them. That said, I do see the logic in that branch of Christianity - in fact, it's likely a very logically consistent view to hold when it comes right down to it. Bottom line, I think I realize now that arguing about some of this stuff when it is clearly not up for debate really is a waste of time and electrons...

From its own Wiki page, however, it appears that its main critique is that it _begs the question_. Of course, such a statement will likely not be received by proponents, but I will offer this as an observation: Children naturally question their surroundings and what they're told, and usually, when a child is growing up, at some point they begin to ask questions about "God." It's at this point that I think your arguments, whether realized or acknowledged, enter the scene.

----------


## osan

> Many of you here have just not considered the presuppositional nature of argumentation.


Perhaps, but I am not one of them.  I am, in fact, possibly the single most annoying broken record on this site about the foundational significance of assumption in logic and reason.




> If you say something like "the use of logic or reason is the only valid way to examine the truth or falsity of any statement which claims to be factual", how do you prove this statement itself?


Why are you going off on such a tangent?  I never said, nor have I ever implied such a thing.  I simply asked you for a pair of examples to clearly illustrate a pair of assertions you made, that I might better understand your specific meanings.  Logic and reason are tools - very powerful ones, no less.  As such, they are endlessly useful in our various human endeavors.  This in no way implies that these are of universal utility in all categories of consideration.  It does, however, mean (through endless demonstration through real-world application and experimentation) that it is indeed quite the means of addressing those classes of consideration for which they are properly suited.  I know that sounds a bit tautological, and I am sure my choice of expression here is not what it might be, but I am hoping you get my drift well enough to see that indeed I speak truthfully and with precision on this point.

Those categories for which logic fails may include many issues dealing, for example, with religious faith.  Another would be questions regarding reincarnation and similar phenomena. Many aspects of quantum physics defy logically clean framing.  Many issues of metaphysics clearly show how logic and reason break down.




> If you say that the statement is true by logic or reason, then you are engaging in circular reasoning and begging the question.


This is only true when mind is wandering the metaphysical plane somewhere near the bottom of a bottomless rabbit hole.  Such questions and observations may be valid in that context, but the moment you return yourself to the "real world", which is to say that of daily existence, all this pedantic cogitation becomes a bit irrelevant when your goal is to make yourself that pot of morning coffee.

We can ponder endlessly with questions such as "do our senses really depict what is 'out there' and how can we be sure?"  It is even a valid thing to do... within limits, beyond which the only thing that you are succeeding at accomplishing is to bother yourself.  In such cases, logic fails because our ability to know beyond the nature of that which our senses provide comes into question.  This is why I say that every human being that has ever lived has been a man of faith.  Even atheists.  You are by nature a creature of faith because there is always that question of what are YOU, really?  What is your life, in absolute terms?  These are questions that probably have no answer and to be honest, it doesn't matter to me one whit.  At some point, every man has to trust SOMETHING - has to assume what he sees is _true_ _enough_, or he would become non-functional and would literally die.

Remember in "The Matrix" where that traitorous prick is sitting at the restaurant when he says, "I know this steak isn't real, but my brain tells me that it is juicy and delicious... "?  That is an analog of one of the "problems" of being human.  But _who cares?_

Descartes put it well: Cogito, ergo sum.  I think, therefore I am.  Even in the Bible, doesn't God say, when asked who he is, "_I am that I am_"?

We as beings, assuming my solipsist paranoia is just that (  ), are of this architecture and I do not for one NYC second believe that it is by accident.  Many years ago I wrote the following, part of my "Catechism Of The Radiating Spirit":
"_Bear always in thine acts and demeanor the inkling_ _and suspicion that Creation's gift to thee presents_ _but shades and phantasms of Truths far deeper than_ _the apparent, rendered unto thee through the_ _intercession of faculties fit to their purpose of_ _navigating the life of a man, but not for sitting_ _to supper with God as His equal."_
I think it sums things up well.  We are what we are.  We call it "human", but we have no real idea what that means.  And yet, we live, love, and do all the other things humans do and seem to make a pretty good go of it.  I see far too much directed intent in our architecture to chalk it up to evolutionary chance.  Besides, even if evolution, as some so mistakenly perceive it, is the source of all this intention, then I would submit that it is the child or the tool of God himself.  There is no escaping "God".  All we have at our option is to speculate on God's precise nature and that, if anything can be said to be, is the grandest act of pissing up a rope any man has ever undertaken.  It can be fun, but care must be taken not to go too far with it because beyond a point I see the potential for damage to the mind.

You are "separate" from "God" for what I believe to be endlessly rational and sound reasons, which I will not get into here as that is a discussion for another day.  Suffice it to say that the separation is, IMO, only apparent.  In point of fact, I do believe that we are one in the same, whether in whole or in part.

----------


## HVACTech

"God" is in control of THESE balls. 

trust me.

----------


## Mach

> Biblefundyfun?  Numerology is not Biblical.





> 


Did you watch this? Can anyone verify those_ readings?_

And by the way, it's funny you said that, because I clicked onto page 7 the other day and your post #181 was posted at (time) 4:44, with daylight saving it changed over to 3:44..... and today your post #268 says 4:44.... do you do that on purpose?

----------


## Sonny Tufts

> I AGREE with you.  Universal propositions cannot be validly obtained from sense perceptions when reading the Bible.  That is what I've been saying to you over and over again.


Then why do you continue to quote Scripture as if it had some authority?

----------


## chrono187

> Pascal was also a mathematician and philosopher who's "cunning intelligence" led him to create the famous wager out of nothing more than common sense.  *Better to believe and be safe than sorry*---Lol


It's easy to lose a common-sense wager. Sense, this is not a common faculty.

----------


## osan

> Then why do you continue to quote Scripture as if it had some authority?


Because that is his belief?

Just wild-guessing here.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Then why do you continue to quote Scripture as if it had some authority?


The question assumes that knowledge comes from the senses.  What is the proof that knowledge comes from the senses?  I asked you 3 questions about empiricism in my last post that you never answered.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Because that is his belief?
> 
> Just wild-guessing here.


Yes that is my first principle.  But I keep trying to get Sonny to think outside of his box.  It's like he's trapped in his illogical box and there is no way he can even for a second think outside of it.

----------


## Sonny Tufts

> Yes that is my first principle.  But I keep trying to get Sonny to think outside of his box.  It's like he's trapped in his illogical box and there is no way he can even for a second think outside of it.


No, you assume without proof your entire theology, because that's the only way to defend it.  You assume:

God exists.
God is omnipotent.
God's omnipotence means He controls everything.
In particular, God controls everything that man experiences and that man does.
Since God controls everything, man cannot do anything on his own.
In particular, man cannot acquire knowledge through his sense experience because that would involve exercising his volition to actually use his senses, and man has no volition.  If he uses his senses it's because God caused him to do so.
Whatever knowledge man acquires is via God's revelation, and God has chosen a particular book with which to convey this revelation.
But man doesn't acquire knowledge by reading this book; he acquires whatever knowledge God sees fit to give him via some sort of extra-sensory method. [Q: But why is there a book at all, if God could simply plant knowledge in man's mind? A: God has a good purpose for using a book, we just don't know what it is.]

If anyone is trapped in a box, it's you.  According to you, your every thought, feeling, and action is determined by God -- in fact, they've been _predetermined_ by God, and you are powerless against this divine design.  You couldn't think outside of this box if you wanted to because you have no control over your thoughts.  You are a mere puppet with no more control over your experiences than a marionette whose strings are being pulled by the puppetmaster.  And don't give me that baloney about man having a will.  In your regimented theology whatever will man has was designed by and given to him by God; man's will is nothing more than what God decides to do, just as Kermit's "will" was whatever Jim Henson wanted to do.

And you continue to refuse to answer questions because to do so might make you admit that yes, there's a computer screen in front of me that contains a message someone else sent me, and I can respond to that message by typing on this keyboard in front of me...

In other words, you don't want to admit that you (or that God causes you to) behave every moment of your life in reliance on your senses.  Instead, you will demand that others prove the validity of induction as if their failure to do so somehow makes your unprovable assumptions valid.

So if you're right that sense experience is worthless for obtaining knowledge, then you can't know that anyone else exists and you are forced to retreat into solipsism, where your continued posting is mere mental masturbation on your part.

----------


## chrono187

You know what I just noticed? It popped out at me. If you shave the arms off the Star in Daniel's Sigil, you get this:

There is few that will understand this.

----------


## wizardwatson

> You know what I just noticed? It popped out at me. If you shave the arms off the Star in Daniel's Sigil, you get this:
> 
> There is few that will understand this.


I assume you mean the tri-force.  That's "Zelda: A Link to the Past" I believe (looks like DS version) where he gets the master sword.

You're swimming in symbolism and spiritual abstractions.

Over-committing to that form of communication makes it hard to understand what you are trying to communicate or even if you actually have something you are trying to communicate or just voicing your abstract ponderings.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> No worries, I love the Boom, phrase. The bible is revelation fact from above. God breathed God given etc. *Secular Science, in most instances, is on a long winded, expensive, wasteful journey to verify and or falsify said divinely revealed fact/truth.* They call the bible a collection of myths whilst seeking "goldilocks" planets for us to eventually inhabit. Okay cool, when they come back with some porridge from one of three bears or even a spoon, if the porridge is all eaten, then I  may be inclined to buy into the fairy tale. Boom. God bless you.


Are you saying scientific truths (distinct from Truth, of course) are not useful?  I would disagree.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Though, it is peculiar that, on the Zodiac wheel, Aquarius comes before Pisces. 
> 
> Maybe there is more to the story?


The axial precession of the equinox goes in the reverse direction through the zodiac. The age before Pisces was Aries. And the one before that Taurus, etc., etc..

----------


## chrono187

> I assume you mean the tri-force.  That's "Zelda: A Link to the Past" I believe (looks like DS version) where he gets the master sword.
> 
> You're swimming in symbolism and spiritual abstractions.
> 
> Over-committing to that form of communication makes it hard to understand what you are trying to communicate or even if you actually have something you are trying to communicate or just voicing your abstract ponderings.


I don't know, I just grabbed the image. I own the SNES version. I was referring to this:

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=rwpeut&s=8#.VQCxl-Fsnc0

----------


## chrono187

> The axial precession of the equinox goes in the reverse direction through the zodiac. The age before Pisces was Aries. And the one before that Taurus, etc., etc..


Thanks for clarifying, I guess that's why Jews still blow the ram horn, or why the previous age had people worshiping golden calf(Taurus)

The picture is coming together nicely.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Thanks for clarifying, I guess that's why Jews still blow the ram horn, or why the previous age had people worshiping golden calf(Taurus)
> 
> The picture is coming together nicely.


You're welcome. 

You're getting it.   It gives an interesting spin (pun intended) on human history to trace the ages back in time.

----------


## acptulsa

> As  you know, a Circle has 360 degrees, or points of Light. A Square has  four corners, perfect 90 angles within each corner. It also has four  sides. If you add up the corners, mathematically, it equals that of a  Circle- which is 360. 90x4=360. Now, a triangle has only 3 corners, and  3 sides. Each of those corners are measured at 60, if it is a perfect  triangle. 60x3=180, which is half of, and thus measurably equated to  360. Perfect Symmetry. When you start dividing, and thus multiplying the  Square, we notice some pretty interesting symbols. Ancient symbols, the  Mystery archetypes. This is the foundation of all Magic and sorcery.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> I am asking around, seeking critique. I am looking for flaws in this theorem. What say you?


Congratulations.  You discovered Euclid.  Oh, and an equilateral triangle is composed of 120 degree angles.  An equilateral hexagon is composed of sixty degree angles.

Of course the 'number of degrees in a circle' is the same of the sum of the angles you have to turn in order to come back to your original facing.  That's the way Euclid designed his method of measuring angles.  The number of degrees in an angle represents the sector of a circle.  If you don't have four ninety degree angles, you have yet to 'circle the block', and you are not yet facing the direction you started out facing.

It was _designed_ this way.  You haven't discovered God, you've discovered Euclid.  Yay!




> I've heard somewhere that a long time ago it took the earth 360 days to go around the sun... that's why we gave the circle a 360 degrees designation...


Not quite.  360 was chosen to make the math easier for the millions who used geometry in the two thousand years between its invention and the invention of the calculator.  So, since 360's prime factorization is 2x2x2x3x3x5, you can find the angles you need to make an equilateral triangle, an equilateral rectangle, an equilateral pentagon, an equilateral hexagon, an equilateral octagon, an equilateral decagon, and a few other equilateral _agons without ever encountering a fraction.




> My understanding of the Golden Ratio comes from finding it myself. It is discovered when one attempts to measure the center of a Circle. The Golden Ratio expresses itself in the infinite nature of a Perfect Circle. A Circle has NO measurable center. I am speaking from practice, not conjecture.
> 
> I can appreciate the condescending tone of your grammar.
> 
> https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem


And we have learned not to appreciate the condescending tone of that 'your logical fallacy' site.  But you are the one who can't tell an ad hominem from a fact, so you might consider being less defensive.

Oh, and I can find you the exact center of any circle with nothing but a square and a pencil.  And I don't require either magic or divine intervention to do it.  Is it possible for me to educate you on this simple fact without using a 'condescending tone'?  I did try.  I have always found that the way to avoid condescending tones is to complete my education.




> I think this fits your response as well, for the most part:
> 
> https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
> 
> Now, I don't think I have all the answers. Furthermore, I am no Biblical Scholar. I also don't have any apocalyptic fears, or apocalyptic theories for that matter. I make no claim to "understanding" Daniel's prophecy or the End-Times.
> 
> I am interested in Mathematics, Physics, Philosophy, and the Occult. I also appreciate a little sensationalism. My interpretations, they were written in such a way as to invoke passion in people like you.
> 
> I appreciate your critique/review. You give me inspiration to think harder, and imagine greater.


If you want to know where in mathematics the occult is, and where it isn't, you might try putting a little effort into understanding mathematics.  Mathematics, geometry, physics, chemistry, biology and the way the real world works does not reveal God by becoming more mystical and occult the deeper you go.  They reveal God by being completely logical and understandable, no matter how deep you go.  The revelation of God's hand in the universe is not that the universe is unfathomable, it's that every time we discover another of its secrets there's perfect, flawless logic behind it.

You haven't even begun to scratch the surface.  Whether that's good news or bad news depends upon whether you want to indulge in your own logical fallacies and stroke your ego, or if you really want to learn to understand the stuff you've so far only glanced over the surface of looking for cool but mind-boggling patterns.

Believe me, this isn't a criticism.  I'm just trying to kick you over the next hurdle.  There are millions of people--some of them in this very thread--who will never come as close to understanding God as you might very well do because they're more concerned with stuffing God into the preconceived notions of God they were raised on than in actually understanding God.  You will undoubtedly get a lot farther than they ever will.  They insist that pointing out the flaws in logic within their dogma is heresy, because God is not to be criticized--the flaws in their dogma, however, are no reflection on God, merely flaws in their dogma.  I think you will avoid _that_ trap.  You seem more interested in finding God where He is, in the world, in the universe, not where He isn't--and that's good.  But, no, understanding Euclid isn't the finish line.  It's just the beginning.

----------


## Ronin Truth

Man, I've really got to get me some of those non 180 degree summed angle triangles.

I wonder if Amazon sells them?

----------


## wizardwatson

> Man, I've really got to get me some of those non 180 degree summed angle triangles.
> 
> I wonder if Amazon sells them?


Penrose triangle.  

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...nrose+triangle

You're welcome.

----------


## chrono187

> Congratulations.  You discovered Euclid.  Oh, and an equilateral triangle is composed of 120 degree angles.  An equilateral hexagon is composed of sixty degree angles.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilateral_triangle





> Believe me, this isn't a criticism.  I'm just trying to kick you over the next hurdle.  There are millions of people--some of them in this very thread--who will never come as close to understanding God as you might very well do *because they're more concerned with stuffing God into the preconceived notions of God they were raised on than in actually understanding God.*  You will undoubtedly get a lot farther than they ever will.  But, no, understanding Euclid isn't the finish line.  It's just the beginning.


This comes to mind:

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Penrose triangle. 
> 
> https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...nrose+triangle
> 
> You're welcome.



( Rats! And I really knew that I should have used that  emoticon.)

----------


## Mr Tansill

> Congratulations.  You discovered Euclid.  Oh, and an equilateral triangle is composed of 120 degree angles.  An equilateral hexagon is composed of sixty degree angles.
> 
> Of course the 'number of degrees in a circle' is the same of the sum of the angles you have to turn in order to come back to your original facing.  That's the way Euclid designed his method of measuring angles.  The number of degrees in an angle represents the sector of a circle.  If you don't have four ninety degree angles, you have yet to 'circle the block', and you are not yet facing the direction you started out facing.
> 
> It was _designed_ this way.  You haven't discovered God, you've discovered Euclid.  Yay!
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite.  360 was chosen to make the math easier for the millions who used geometry in the two thousand years between its invention and the invention of the calculator.  So, since 360's prime factorization is 2x2x2x3x3x5, you can find the angles you need to make an equilateral triangle, an equilateral rectangle, an equilateral pentagon, an equilateral hexagon, an equilateral octagon, an equilateral decagon, and a few other equilateral _agons without ever encountering a fraction.
> ...


Thank you for that. This thread was in some serious need of a bit of logic and reason. +rep.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Thank you for that. This thread was in some serious need of a bit of logic and reason. +rep.


And correct logic and reason would have made it even better.

----------


## chrono187



----------


## chrono187



----------


## Mach

Sola, a learning website for you to learn from, and yes, it includes, _Scripture Theory_.

http://www.abarim-publications.com/S...roduction.html 

-----


http://www.abarim-publications.com/C...roduction.html




> A snow flake is an object composed of water molecules. These molecules do not have a common nerve system, DNA or a chief molecule who calls the shots. How do these molecules know where to go and hang in order to form a six pointed star? And where do they get the audacity to form a different one every time? How does one molecule in one leg of the flake know which private design the rest of the gang is cruising for, in other legs of the flake, for the tiny molecule a million miles away?




Snowflakes...... Order Out of Chaos - Chaos Theory

----------


## acptulsa

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilateral_triangle


I try to tell you how Euclid works, to let you in on the magic, and you quote wiki at me.  If you are traveling north and you make a sixty degree turn you will never travel in an equilateral triangle.  You have to change your direction of travel by 120 degrees.

I can handle the truth.  I may be mistaken, however, about whether you want to hear it.

----------


## chrono187

> I try to tell you how Euclid works, to let you in on the magic, and you quote wiki at me.  If you are traveling north and you make a sixty degree turn you will never travel in an equilateral triangle.  You have to change your direction of travel by 120 degrees.


Men lie, women lie, numbers don't.

----------


## acptulsa

> Men lie, women lie, numbers don't.


You've obviously carefully avoided Zippyjuan statistics.

----------


## chrono187

> You've obviously carefully avoided Zippyjuan statistics.


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." - Mark Twain

----------


## acptulsa

> "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." - Mark Twain


The key is to stop lying to yourself.  Because anyone can fool you, and you can fool yourself, if you have no clue what a number means.

'To thy own self be true.'--_William Shakespeare_

If you are driving down a road, and you come upon a curve, and the two approaches to that curve form a sixty degree angle, and you alter the course of your vehicle by exactly sixty degrees exactly at the apex of that curve, and you keep going, you will leave that roadway.  True fact.

Does that make the number sixty a liar?

----------


## chrono187

> The key is to stop lying to yourself.  Because anyone can fool you, and you can fool yourself, if you have no clue what a number means.
> 
> 'To thy own self be true.'--_William Shakespeare_
> 
> If you are driving down a road, and you come upon a curve, and the two approaches to that curve form a sixty degree angle, and you alter the course of your vehicle by exactly sixty degrees exactly at the apex of that curve, and you keep going, you will leave that roadway.  True fact.
> 
> Does that make the number sixty a liar?


Whoa, hold-on. A curve cannot form a 60 angle. Angles are Right. A curve, this is more of a "circular angle", a curve bends- it does not fold.

Tricky, tricky.

----------


## chrono187

*"Was ever such a prize won with so little innocent blood?"*

Sensing rising criticism of the excesses of the French Revolution                          in the letters of William Short (1759-1848), his handpicked _charg                          des affaires_  in Paris, Secretary of State Jefferson sharply                          chastised Short and praised the revolution despite its rising                          irrationality and violence: "and was ever such a prize won with                          so little innocent blood? my own affections have been deeply wounded                          by some of the martyrs to this cause, but rather than it should                          have failed, *I would have seen half the earth desolated.* were                          there but an Adam and Eve left in every country, left free, it                          would be better than as it now is."

-Thomas Jefferson to William Short.                             January 3, 1793.

----------


## chrono187

And yes, I know there are acute and obtuse angles. An angle, with perfect symmetry however, is a Right angle- or 90.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> And yes, I know there are acute and obtuse angles. An angle, with perfect symmetry however, is a Right angle- or 90.


I would think equilateral/equiangular triangle would a better example of perfect symmetry, no matter how you turn and look at it. 

The 60 degree angle may explain the sexagesimal Babylonian and other earlier mathematics. Not too shabby for a bunch of Stone Age Neolithic hunter gatherers. 

60 is evenly divisible by 30, 20, 15, 12, 10, 6, 5, 4, 3, and 2.

----------


## chrono187

In the New Testament, Jesus represents the archetype of love, unconditional. The promise of redemption, salvation, and second chances- the "Redeemer". Jesus is there to tell you that you will be loved now matter how sick and depraved you are. In an age of love, this does not work in practice. The only thing the power of love cannot overcome, is the power of justice. Imagine a Woman's scorn, this is _more_ powerful than her love. There must be balance.

“Power without love is reckless and abusive, and love without power is sentimental and anemic. Power at its best is love implementing the demands of justice, and justice at its best is power correcting everything that stands against love.” - Martin Luther King Jr.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix

----------


## Ronin Truth

The opposite of love is not hate. 

It's indifference.

----------


## chrono187

> The opposite of love is not hate. 
> 
> It's indifference.


What, then, is the opposite of hate?

----------


## Ronin Truth

> What, then, is the opposite of hate?


Indifference? 

Both love and hate suggest and imply heavy emotional involvement.

----------


## acptulsa

> The opposite of love is not hate. 
> 
> It's indifference.





> What, then, is the opposite of hate?


See, that's what you get for listening to Ronin.

Both hate and indifference are the opposites.  To see how that works, all you need is a simple triangle.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> See, that's what you get for listening to Ronin.
> 
> Both hate and indifference are the opposites. To see how that works, all you need is a simple triangle.


See, that's what you get for listening to acptulsa.

Error and confusion.

----------


## chrono187

> Indifference? 
> 
> Both love and hate suggest and imply heavy emotional involvement.


I think a tri-angle can effectively diagram what you said. Indifference, this would be the apex of the pyramid. The two bottom villars, or points of light, this would be love and hate. You made a direct connection between the feelings of love and hate, as they relate to indifference.

What you basically said, was this:

Both Love and Hate lead to indifference. Therefore, I am indifferent to feelings of love and hate.

If you cannot feel green passion, or scorn, what is your Soul capable of feeling?

Riddle me that.

----------


## chrono187

If you think about it, that "reasoning", is a form of circular emotionalism.

If the Core is indifference, how can you discern what matters, and what does not? Are you also indifferent to the outcome?

----------


## chrono187

> Both *love* and hate suggest and imply heavy emotional involvement.


Love. This does imply heavy emotional involvement.

----------


## chrono187

Nas's verse, in particular. Ask yourselves these questions, or similar.

----------


## chrono187

You know, I was looking up at the night sky- and realized something.  What I understood, became what in hindsight should have been obvious, or  common sense.

The Moon does not light up the night sky. The  Moon, this only reflects the light of the Sun. If we are standing on  Earth, the light in darkness comes not from the moon. Just because we  see the moon light up, this does not mean it is projecting light. It is  only Stars, or our Sun which projects light- combvstible balls of  Energy. The Moon simply reflects that energy, it is not the cause of it.  The Light in the Night- this is stars. The Eastern Star, Sirius(Siri),  She is the brightest night-lamp.

It's called the Eastern Star,  because it always faces East. If you observe a compass at night, Sirius  will always be facing West/East- depending on where _you_ stand.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> You know, I was looking up at the night sky- and realized something. What I understood, became what in hindsight should have been obvious, or common sense.
> 
> The Moon does not light up the night sky. The Moon, this only reflects the light of the Sun. If we are standing on Earth, the light in darkness comes not from the moon. Just because we see the moon light up, this does not mean it is projecting light. It is only Stars, or our Sun which projects light- combvstible balls of Energy. The Moon simply reflects that energy, it is not the cause of it. The Light in the Night- this is stars. The Eastern Star, Sirius(Siri), She is the brightest night-lamp.
> 
> It's called the Eastern Star, because it always faces East. If you observe a compass at night, Sirius will always be facing West/East- depending on where _you_ stand.


Siriusly?

----------


## Ronin Truth

> I think a tri-angle can effectively diagram what you said. Indifference, this would be the apex of the pyramid. The two bottom villars, or points of light, this would be love and hate. You made a direct connection between the feelings of love and hate, as they relate to indifference.
> 
> What you basically said, was this:
> 
> Both Love and Hate lead to indifference. Therefore, I am indifferent to feelings of love and hate.
> 
> If you cannot feel green passion, or scorn, what is your Soul capable of feeling?
> 
> Riddle me that.


Nah that's not it. Love and hate don't lead to indifference.

If you love something you aren't indifferent to it. If you hate something you aren't indifferent to it. If you are indifferent to something you neither love nor hate it. 

Indifference is you don't really give a crap about it, one way or the other.

Feeling is neither a soul attribute nor characteristic.

Capische?

----------


## chrono187

> Nah that's not it. Love and hate don't lead to indifference.
> 
> If you love something you aren't indifferent to it. If you hate something you aren't indifferent to it. If you are indifferent to something you neither love nor hate it. 
> 
> Indifference is you don't really give a crap about it, one way or the other.
> 
> *Feeling is neither a soul attribute* nor characteristic.
> 
> Capische?


The ability to express, and interpret feelings, tis what it means to be Man. You don't want to be a hu-man.

Penned in spiritual abstraction, veiled in curious cvbscurity.

Mickey mouse, he had a magic wand. The Celtic wielder of aetheral power also had a wand. His was a staff, made out of Wood. It was made out of a holy-wood. His staff was made out of wood from the Holly Tree. It was made out of Holly-Wood. His "myth" became known as Merlin. The older tales of Merlin were more.. rael. Merlin is depicted as a f.aggot now.

Look, the sciences of Travistock are Elementary to me. Your television, coming from "Hollywood", does not mend my mind- neither consciousness.

By the way, the word conscience. What does it mean to have a conscience? The word, con-science. Those at the top understand that appear to be noble, this is necessary as Earth, the game, is essentially a War for resources. So, divide and conquer, this method seems most appropriate.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> The ability to express, and interpret feelings, tis what it means to be Man. You don't want to be a hu-man.
> 
> Penned in spiritual abstraction, veiled in curious cvbscurity.
> 
> Mickey mouse, he had a magic wand. The Celtic wielder of aetheral power also had a wand. His was a staff, made out of Wood. It was made out of holy wood. His staff was made out of wood from the Holly Tree. It was made out of Holly-Wood. His "myth" became known as Merlin. The older tales of Merlin were more.. rael. Merlin is depicted as a f.aggot now.
> 
> Look, the sciences of travistock are Elementary to me. Your television, coming from "Hollywood", does not mend my mind- neither consciousness.
> 
> By the way, the word conscience. What does it mean to have a conscience? The word, con-science. Those at the top understand that appear to be noble, this is necessary as Earth, the game, is essentially a War for resources. So, divide and conquer, this method seems most appropriate.


The Riddle of the World

Alexander Pope

Know then thyself, presume not God to scan
The proper study of Mankind is Man.
Placed on this isthmus of a middle state,
A Being darkly wise, and rudely great:
With too much knowledge for the Sceptic side,
With too much weakness for the Stoic's pride,
He hangs between; in doubt to act, or rest;
In doubt to deem himself a God, or Beast;
In doubt his mind and body to prefer;
Born but to die, and reas'ning but to err;
Whether he thinks to little, or too much;
Chaos of Thought and Passion, all confus'd;
Still by himself, abus'd or disabus'd;
Created half to rise and half to fall;
Great Lord of all things, yet a prey to all,
Sole judge of truth, in endless error hurl'd;
The glory, jest and riddle of the world.

----------


## chrono187

By the way, Christmas trees are also, traditionally, made out of a particular wood. So, have a _holly_-jolly Easter▽..lol

----------


## chrono187

Easter, this is, more appropriately, the Pagan celebration of Spring arrival.

What frame, or time of the year does Easter occur?

Wake up. You're in a deep slumber- unconscious. You are blinded by the hand of justice, meaning, the Elements take over.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> By the way, Christmas trees are also, traditionally, made out of a particular wood. So, have a _holly_-jolly Easter▽..lol


And don't forget the California motion pictures made in Hollywood.

----------


## chrono187

Imagine the scenery, think Tiki bars- That's where Maya. 

Can you decode? Do you have the capacity for decryption? That's where the NSA got their start. Then they took over. 

You see, Nasa and the NSA have one very important thing in common. If you haven't figured that out, then God help you. 

Ask yourself these Qwestions:

Who was the first Director of Nasa? What was his name, where did he come from? This man, did he, have any philosophical underpinnings that could have traveled abroad?

----------


## chrono187

Do you know what it means to read? What is paper made from? What do you hang on your doors, and windows? What is a Christmas?

t'was, a Christ-Mass. The Catholic Church created that conspiracy. The conspiracy, or secrets of Christmas. There were how many dwarves, and how many reindeer? The reality, of well, your reality, is obscured by myth and allegory.

You reed ad tree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

----------


## chrono187

> And don't forget the California motion pictures made in Hollywood.


Imagine, if you sea, or see- does your third chalice, or interpretation of that Witch is right if front of you(Brahman humor). The View of the world, picture the CIA vs Holly-wood. The microcosm of this is blood vs crypts, or six-pointed stars vs five-pointed stars. The East vs West, the Christians vs Secular Humanists.

This is Wisdom, vs Knowledge. 

What should the pathetic slaves believe next, God, or his beautiful creation? How should he then behave, in the power of knowledge or the calm arrogance of shut the $#@! up>?

War, someone told you this was a racket. There were others who told you it would be the death of you.

Next, he pulls the Joker card. This is, a Joker of spades, red color-coat. 

This guy, He's just playing you like a game of poker.. *expressionless face-palm*

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Do you know what it means to read? What is paper made from? What do you hang on your doors, and windows? What is a Christmas?
> 
> t'was, a Christ-Mass. The Catholic Church created that conspiracy. The conspiracy, or secrets of Christmas. There were how many dwarves, and how many reindeer? The reality, of well, your reality, is obscured by myth and allegory.
> 
> You reed ad tree.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip


What is Christmas?

A pagan holiday/ritual celebrating the winter solstice (return of the Sun)? Glommed onto a Roman pagan "Christianity" (so called) to woo and win over pagan converts, in vain hopes of saving the Empire?

[Just like Jesus commanded.]

----------


## chrono187

> What is Christmas?
> 
> A pagan holiday celebrating the winter solstice (return of the Sun)? Glommed onto a Roman pagan "Christianity" (so called) to woo and win over pagan converts, in vain hopes of saving the Empire?
> 
> [Just like Jesus commanded.]


Jesus was an Anarchist. He, in his imagination, envisioned a Kingdom of God- or world of peace. However, in later writings, the torch-bearers, they _invented_ the end of the world. These 'revelation' teachings are not "Old" in a Biblical sense, and they instill a sense of envy and docility. These teachings encourage helplessness, and wishful thinking. They were an unraveling, or 'revealing' of the "Great Work".

Now, anyone familiar with Freemasonic teachings, has heard of the "Great Work". The book of Revelation, this is a book of revealing. There was a Woman by the name of Alice Bailey who coined it as the 'Externalization of the Hierarchy'.

The Book of Genesis.

Genesis = Gene-Isis

Christians = product of learned helplessness.

Sorry.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Jesus was an Anarchist. He, in his imagination, envisioned a Kingdom of God- or world of peace. However, in later writings, the torch-bearers, they _invented_ the end of the world. These 'revelation' teachings are not "Old" in a Biblical sense, and they instill a sense of envy and docility. These teachings encourage helplessness, and wishful thinking. They were an unraveling, or 'revealing' of the "Great Work".
> 
> Now, anyone familiar with Freemasonic teachings, has heard of the "Great Work". The book of Revelation, this is a book of revealing. There was a Woman by the name of Alice Bailey who coined it as the 'Externalization of the Hierarchy'.
> 
> The Book of Genesis.
> 
> Genesis = Gene-Isis
> 
> Christians = product of learned helplessness.
> ...


Last I heard, Jesus still is.

Actually Jesus just understood that all human governments are ruled and controlled by Satan, and really had nothing for, nor to do with him. 

Alice Bailey of the Lucis (Lucifer) Trust fame and the UN, NGO NWO consultant? 

No need to aplogize to me, I'm not a Christian. I just really like Jesus.

----------


## chrono187

> Last I heard, Jesus still is.
> 
> Actually Jesus just understood that all human governments are ruled and controlled by Satan, and really had nothing for, nor to do with him. 
> 
> Alice Bailey of the Lucis (Lucifer) Trust fame and the UN, NGO NWO consultant? 
> 
> No need to aplogize to me, I'm not a Christian. I just really like Jesus.


Satan is very old. If you want to learn more about Satan, start with Enki. This was his first name.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Satan is very old. If you want to learn more about Satan, start with Enki. This was his first name.


Was chrono the good alien?

----------


## chrono187

[QUOTE=Ronin Truth;5811343
Actually Jesus just understood that all human governments are ruled and controlled by Satan, and really had nothing for, nor to do with him. 
[/QUOTE]

It's a little more complex than this.

Look into the story of Enlil, whom became Jehova.

----------


## chrono187

> Was chrono the good alien?


Lol, if you want to believe that.

Chronos was a Greek deity, Chrono is something else.

Btw, where do you think _chrono_logical order comes from? The God of Time.

In what ways, exactly, do "aliens" and human differ? What makes human genetically different from alien? 

Ask this: Would I even know if I was in the _presence_ of an alien?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Lol, if you want to believe that.
> 
> Chronos was a Greek deity, Chrono is something else.
> 
> Btw, where do you think _chrono_logical order comes from? The God of Time.
> 
> In what ways, exactly, do "aliens" and human differ? What makes human genetically different from alien? 
> 
> Ask this: Would I even know if I was in the _presence_ of an alien?


Cows are aliens.  Danke told me.

----------


## chrono187

> Cows are aliens.  Danke told me.


Cows are considered sacred by some cultures, take India for example.

In India, Cows are viewed as Mother- for their Milk. They are a natural archetype of the Divine, or sacred feminine.  So,  Cow jumps over the Moon~

----------


## Ronin Truth

> It's a little more complex than this.
> 
> Look into the story of Enlil, whom became Jehova.


Actually it's not.

For purposes of this conversation, I'm not really interested in getting into the Anunnaki.

----------


## chrono187

> Actually it's not.
> 
> For purposes of this conversation, I'm not really interested in getting into the Anunnaki.


You can have your beliefs, I can have mine.

Who's History are you reading?

----------


## Ronin Truth

> You can have your beliefs, I can have mine.
> 
> *Did I say anything about beliefs?
> 
> *Who's History are you reading?
> 
> *The Universe's.
> 
> *


*"It doesn't seem to me that this fantastically marvelous universe, this tremendous range of time and space and different kinds of animals, and all the different planets, and all these atoms with all their motions, and so on, all this complicated thing can merely be a stage so that God can watch human beings struggle for good and evil — which is the view that religion has. The stage is too big for the drama." -- (1959), quoted by James Gleick in Genius: The Life and Science of Richard Feynman (1992)*

----------


## chrono187

At the very least, knowledge is considered cool again.

So, instead of mindlessly watching television, people are thinking about aliens, space monkeys- and all kinds of fun $#@!.

If it be end of the world, at least it's interesting.

----------


## TER

> 


Would you say you are a hedonist?

----------


## chrono187

> Would you say you are a hedonist?


Part Hedonist, part Poor Righteous Elect of God

..lol

----------


## TER

> Part Hedonist, part Poor Righteous Elect of God
> 
> ..lol


In that case, greetings from a brother who is of the same stock!

May Jesus Christ have mercy upon us!

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Part Hedonist, part Poor Righteous Elect of God
> 
> ..lol





> In that case, greetings from a brother who is of the same stock!
> 
> May Jesus Christ have mercy upon us!



What a bunch of confused people...

----------


## TER

> What a bunch of confused people...


Hey Moe, look, Curly just walked in!

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Hey Moe, look, Curly just walked in!


TER, you are so confused that you didn't even know that your church condemned Pelagius at the Council of Carthage...and then you argue using Pelagius' arguments!

----------


## chrono187

> What a bunch of confused people...


Look, the people who govern your reality believe they are God. If they are not God, they are one their way. You see, the Goyam are there to be laughed at, and stomped on.

That is their primary function.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Look, the people who govern your reality believe they are God. If they are not God, they are one their way. You see, the Goyam are there to be laughed at, and stomped on.
> 
> That is their primary function.


I have no earthly idea what you are talking about.  Are you saying the Jews control the world?

----------


## chrono187

> I have no earthly idea what you are talking about.  Are you saying the Jews control the world?


No, that's not what I'm saying. 

They are very legal- in Law, Silence is considered acquiescence. 

_Qui tacet consentit_

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikiped..._and_consensus

In other words, if someone told you what was going to happen, even who did it.. and you do nothing?

Spiritual fair-game.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> No, that's not what I'm saying. 
> 
> They are very legal- in Law, Silence is considered acquiescence. 
> 
> _Qui tacet consentit_
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikiped..._and_consensus
> 
> In other words, if someone told you what was going to happen, even who did it.. and you do nothing?
> ...


What on earth are you talking about?  Do you get off by speaking in these codes and riddles that only you understand?  It's not very conducive to conversation.  It's kind of disrespectful to everyone reading.

----------


## chrono187

> What on earth are you talking about?  Do you get off by speaking in these codes and riddles that only you understand?  It's not very conducive to conversation.  It's kind of disrespectful to everyone reading.


Sorry, I didn't know you were press secretary, allow me to rephrase.

I am saying that the World is changing, the Fibonacci orbit is moving from slow spin- to Tazmanian whirlwind.

Try to imagine, if you will, a tornado of fire and Brimstone- in center;

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Sorry, I didn't know you were press secretary, allow me to rephrase.
> 
> I am saying that the world is changing, the Fibonacci orbit is moving from slow spin- to Tazmanian whirlwind.
> 
> Try to imagine, if you will, a tornado of fire and Brimstone- in center;



Don't you see how you shut down all conversation by being so intentionally ambiguous?   

Either you're mentally unstable (a real possibility) or you are just sitting behind your computer giggling at all the nutty things you are typing.

It's much better to make issues clearer rather than muddy them.

----------


## chrono187

> Don't you see how you shut down all conversation by being so intentionally ambiguous?   
> 
> Either you're mentally unstable (a real possibility) or you are just *sitting behind your computer giggling at all the nutty things you are typing*.
> 
> It's much better to make issues clearer rather than muddy them.


What could be clearer?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> What could be clearer?


What does this mean?




> Sorry, I didn't know you were press secretary, allow me to rephrase.
> 
>  I am saying that the World is changing, the Fibonacci orbit is moving from slow spin- to Tazmanian whirlwind.
> 
>  Try to imagine, if you will, a tornado of fire and Brimstone- in center;

----------


## chrono187

> What does this mean?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> 


Oooooh, another riddle!  Thanks Mr. Riddle man, you're so smart!

----------


## chrono187

> Oooooh, another riddle!  Thanks Mr. Riddle man, you're so smart!


I think "Armageddon" beings with the Zombie Apocalypse. 

You will have a generation under _heavy_  attack, psychological and otherwise, who will not even know they are  being preyed upon. You will have a generation of arrogant, spoiled brat  children- of whom possess no worldly knowledge or wisdom. 

Now,  if you want to see microcosms of this, go out to any popular restaurant  and look around you. When you observe your surroundings, and you see  entire families at their respective tables, notice the lack of human  interaction. What you will see is a bunch of people on their cellphones,  tablets, or iPods, completely disconnected from reality.

The  people who rule Terra are Social Darwinist. They do believe that you are  an inferior stock of Man, and your victimization by your Betters' is by  virtue of Divine Law. Those who wield Dragon-power on this Earth, they  believe they have the Right to become Vulture and Hawk- as is natural  law. This is Survival of the Fittest. You are, as they say, the  "Profane".

_“Those who will not use their own brain, 
they are nothing more than meat on the table
and beasts of burden by choice and consent.”_ - Albert Pike (1809-1891) *Morals & Dogma*

Albert  Pike, a Confederate General, founder of the KKK, and 33rd degree Mason;  his book Morals and Dogma became known as the 'Bible' of Freemasonry  during the late 1800's.

----------


## osan

> _“Those who will not use their own brain, 
> they are nothing more than meat on the table
> and beasts of burden by choice and consent.”_ - Albert Pike (1809-1891) *Morals & Dogma*
> *
> Albert  Pike, a Confederate General,* founder of the KKK, and 33rd degree Mason;  his book Morals and Dogma became known as the 'Bible' of Freemasonry  during the late 1800's.


Do you have a cite for this?  I cannot recall ever seen anything that associates Pike with the Klan.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Do you have a cite for this?  I cannot recall ever seen anything that associates Pike with the Klan.


Are you asking this weirdo for citations?   The aliens he talks to probably told him that.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Do you have a cite for this? I cannot recall ever seen anything that associates Pike with the Klan.


https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...21.pn4WijI3_k4

----------


## chrono187

The masks come off. 

Schools must be pretty hectic places, what with trying to manipulate those young fertile minds and all. Your overlords don't give a damn about you. Wake-up, you are a Pawn.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> The masks come off. 
> 
> Schools must be pretty hectic places, what with trying to manipulate those young fertile minds and all. Your overlords don't give a damn about you. Wake-up, you are a Pawn.


This is one of the worst and most irrelevant threads in the history of RPF's.

----------


## chrono187



----------


## chrono187

> This is one of the worst and most irrelevant threads in the history of RPF's.


Have you ever heard of Clergy Response Teams?

That's the price for getting 501(c)(3) status. You are bullied into becoming a Federal corporation, then bonded to the Religion of State. 

What God do these cowards serve?

Perhaps you know some of these people..?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Have you ever heard of Clergy Response Teams?
> 
> That's the price for getting 501(c)(3) status. You are bullied into becoming a Federal corporation, then bonded to the Religion of State. 
> 
> What God do these cowards serve?
> 
> Perhaps you know some of these people..?



Have you ever heard of churches who reject 501c3 incorporation? I go to one.

What's your next question?

----------


## chrono187

> What's your next question?


What percentage of "Churches" become 501(c)(3) slave-sculpting hu-man reformers?

----------


## CPUd



----------


## acptulsa

> Are you asking this weirdo for citations?   The aliens he talks to probably told him that.


Every time something whizzes by over your head, you completely forget your golden rule and your Savior's other Cheek and even how to come up with a decent, amusing insult.

Have you ever noticed that?

If trying to derail the threads of newcomers to better suit your one-track mind frustrates you so much you can't even remember how to falsely appear to be a loving Christian, why do you do it 24/7?

----------


## chrono187

> 


Wait, the Cat's door is *DESIGNED* to keep the dog away from _her_ food?

Hold-on, I was brought up where _Love_ have something to do with the equation..lol

----------


## chrono187



----------


## Sola_Fide

> What percentage of "Churches" become 501(c)(3) slave-sculpting hu-man reformers?


I don't know.  It's probably a high percentage nowadays.  What's your point?

----------


## acptulsa

> I don't know.  It's probably a high percentage nowadays.  What's your point?


That being a Pharisee just doesn't net you the unearned respect and undeserved glory it used to garner.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> That being a Pharisee just doesn't net you the unearned respect and undeserved glory it used to garner.


Huh?

----------


## chrono187

You guys ever wonder why one can find liquor stores, and now drug stores, on every corner or shopping area- local _Merchants_?

P.s- There is a particular group of people who psychically promote your bodily descent.

Do you have any idea how long have microchips been unilaterally placed inside the needlepoint of an Doctor's incubator syringe?

Vaccinate your children, take flu shots, get your *boosters*(LOL), oh and take this tuberculosis shot in medical before you reach GP.

These,  slaves, these slaves they cannot survive.  If their body isn't being  destroyed with substance abuse, they are chipped like a dog and can be  traced via satellite GPS- and _the Mercury_/Formaldehyde poisons their consciousness.

Dreams

Oh! that my young life were a lasting dream!
    My spirit not awakening, till the beam
    Of an Eternity should bring the morrow.
    Yes! tho' that long dream were of hopeless sorrow,
    'Twere better than the cold reality
    Of waking life, to him whose heart must be,
    And hath been still, upon the lovely earth,
    A chaos of deep passion, from his birth.
    But should it be- that dream eternally
    Continuing- as dreams have been to me
    In my young boyhood- should it thus be given,
    'Twere folly still to hope for higher Heaven.
    For I have revell'd, when the sun was bright
    I' the summer sky, in dreams of living light
    And loveliness,- have left my very heart
    In climes of my imagining, apart
    From mine own home, with beings that have been
    Of mine own thought- what more could I have seen?
    'Twas once- and only once- and the wild hour
    From my remembrance shall not pass- some power
    Or spell had bound me- 'twas the chilly wind
    Came o'er me in the night, and left behind
    Its image on my spirit- or the moon
    Shone on my slumbers in her lofty noon
    Too coldly- or the stars- howe'er it was
    That dream was as that night-wind- let it pass.

    I have been happy, tho' in a dream.
    I have been happy- and I love the theme:
    Dreams! in their vivid coloring of life,
    As in that fleeting, shadowy, misty strife
    Of semblance with reality, which brings
    To the delirious eye, more lovely things
    Of Paradise and Love- and all our own!
    Than young Hope in his sunniest hour hath known.

-Edgar Allen Poe

----------


## chrono187

The working man is the biggest fool and sucker on Terra, Gaia, or whatever future fantasy you were living. 

If you were to take away his little shovel/pales, legos/bricks, _thor_/hammer, gavel/bumper, and replaced it with a mirror- What would you See?

The working man has always been a useful little boy whom never matured. I don't know Why it happened to you, but this is how it happened,

----------


## chrono187



----------


## chrono187

Look, if I told you I could commune with the deceased, would you believe me?

----------


## chrono187

Preachers who use Romans 13 in order to command silence or invoke obedience- the Worst kind of liar. This is the liar, who lies, as a result of fear and/or misguided allegiance. That man is a Coward.

I believe Jesus was basically saying, look, Caesars face is on this Money. This coinage belongs to Caesar, so render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. It belongs to him. Let him have it. The teaching here, being, Give the rich man all his Wealth. Return it to him. If he has all the money, there is nothing left to conquer and he will self-destruct. That 360° of Light will erupt his insides, causing gastrointestinal problems and a sporadic States of confusion and irritability.

Learn to live without his money, and coinage.

Also, we have to remember the Minds who authored these Books of the Bible. If you are reading Romans, imagine someone who believes they have "Divine" Right to rule. These are people who genuinely believed they were acting as the _executors_ of God's Will. So, that part about obedience, you are making their life easier in the Executive Branch of God's Government- of which they think they are a part of. Get it??

Open those eyes.

----------


## TER

Do you have a brother named fire11?

----------


## chrono187

> Do you have a brother named fire11?


No, but I have a Sister in Law named Water22.. you're missing the point.

I am not present. So, in reality, believe NONE of what you see, and only half of what you hear.

----------


## Sola_Fide

It's very disrespectful to make nonsense posts.  It shows a lack of respect for everyone reading.  The respectful thing to do is to make issues clearer, rather than be vague and cryptic. 

Even if you are talking about "mysterious" or "cryptic" things, the respectful thing to do is explain issues as clearly as possible.

----------


## chrono187

> It's very disrespectful to make nonsense posts.  It shows a lack of respect for everyone reading.  The respectful thing to do is to make issues clearer, rather than be vague and cryptic. 
> 
> Even if you are talking about "mysterious" or "cryptic" things, the respectful thing to do is explain issues as clearly as possible.


Since the Globalists got a head-start on the future, this is what you need to know..

The CIA is the _primary_  enforcement arm of the NSA. The NSA, their specialty is Data. This  means- data-mining, data-analysis, data-encryption, data-decryption,  code-breaking, and so on. Think of them as a super-elite gang of hackers  and programmers.

Now, what you may not have known, is _Echelon_.  All of the major communications providers, your phones and tablets,  they have agreed to have separate "NSA" rooms installed in their  respective HQ offices. These NSA rooms contain NSA computers which  archive all incoming data, and store it. This is your telephone  companies, AT&T etc, in bed with the State- through it's NSA  tentacle. You see, all communications you make, be they phone calls or  text messages, e-mails etc, is saved- and recorded. There is no such  thing as privacy in your life, your privacy is an illusion. This is  especially true if you are anyone who matters. The reach of the NSA is  Global. How many people in other countries use Verizon for example?   Now, one may say, well what do I have to worry about? They won't pay  attention to me. Sure, well this is how it works...

Every live  phone call is recorded, and stored in permanent databases. However,  there are also what may be called "phreak spyders" that listen in on  your calls. These are computers, software programs, that are designed to  listen for "keywords" or "buzzwords".

Some of these words may  be, for example, "Shoot him in the head", "Kidnap her", "kill Obama",  etc. If the call picks up enough red flags, it is set aside, and shot up  the ladder to a human data-analysis specialist whom reviews the record.  Then, in his discretion, he discerns whether or not there are any _real and imminent_ threats.

Stock up on guns, ammunition, and invest in 2-way and short-wave radio for communication.

Don't you see? You're already being left in the past. Are you familiar with the Left Behind series?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

----------


## CPUd

> Since the Globalists got a head-start on the future, this is what you need to know..
> 
> The CIA is the _primary_  enforcement arm of the NSA. The NSA, their specialty is Data. This  means- data-mining, data-analysis, data-encryption, data-decryption,  code-breaking, and so on. Think of them as a super-elite gang of hackers  and programmers.
> 
> Now, what you may not have known, is _Echelon_.  All of the major communications providers, your phones and tablets,  they have agreed to have separate "NSA" rooms installed in their  respective HQ offices. These NSA rooms contain NSA computers which  archive all incoming data, and store it. This is your telephone  companies, AT&T etc, in bed with the State- through it's NSA  tentacle. You see, all communications you make, be they phone calls or  text messages, e-mails etc, is saved- and recorded. There is no such  thing as privacy in your life, your privacy is an illusion. This is  especially true if you are anyone who matters. The reach of the NSA is  Global. How many people in other countries use Verizon for example?   Now, one may say, well what do I have to worry about? They won't pay  attention to me. Sure, well this is how it works...
> 
> Every live  phone call is recorded, and stored in permanent databases. However,  there are also what may be called "phreak spyders" that listen in on  your calls. These are computers, software programs, that are designed to  listen for "keywords" or "buzzwords".
> 
> Some of these words may  be, for example, "Shoot him in the head", "Kidnap her", "kill Obama",  etc. If the call picks up enough red flags, it is set aside, and shot up  the ladder to a human data-analysis specialist whom reviews the record.  Then, in his discretion, he discerns whether or not there are any _real and imminent_ threats.
> ...


Permanent databases you say?  Please let us know how much storage space that would require.

----------


## chrono187

> Permanent databases you say?  Please let us know how much storage space that would require.


Quantum databases. 

If Water has Memory, or infinite consciousness, then I imagine Man can make a Computer with similar capabilities. In fact, they probably already here.

The Age of self-aware AI super-computers. We could probably play out a Terminator movie in real life at this point.

By the way, who is "us"? lol

----------


## CPUd

OK I see now.

----------


## chrono187

When I think of the NSA, this movie comes to mind:

----------


## Ronin Truth

FWIW, this movie scene is my favorite NSA related movie thought.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrOZ...yer_detailpage

Enjoy!

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Look, if I told you I could commune with the deceased, would you believe me?


I'd say that my belief would depend almost entirely on the quantity and quality of your evidence.

----------


## Mach

> What is Christmas?
> 
> A pagan holiday/ritual celebrating the winter solstice (return of the Sun)? Glommed onto a Roman pagan "Christianity" (so called) to woo and win over pagan converts, in vain hopes of saving the Empire?
> 
> [Just like Jesus commanded.]




Pagan Claus

http://www.featherlessbiped.com/6696/XMAS/xmas.htm


-----------

*Chrono*, here, read this sight over clicking all of the applicable links.  

*The Meaning of Life* (oh boy is this great)

http://web.archive.org/web/201105181...s/meaning1.htm

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Pagan Claus
> 
> http://www.featherlessbiped.com/6696/XMAS/xmas.htm
> 
> 
> -----------
> 
> *Chrono*, here, read this sight over clicking all of the applicable links. 
> 
> ...


Interesting. I like it. Thanks!

----------


## chrono187

> I'd say that my belief would depend almost entirely on the quantity and quality of your evidence.


What if I had to quantifiable evidence?

----------


## Mach

> Interesting. I like it. Thanks!


The Meaning of Life is one of my all time favorites, found that 10 years ago along with the Christmas one, too, if it wasn't for http://web.archive.org/ the meaning of life would be, well, meaningless, the original site is gone. 

Here's another one I found way back which I may have already linked to on this post, it's all about _Truth and Reality_, or at least _a_ current perception of _it_..... .... it's a college of information.

http://www.spaceandmotion.com/


It's sick how all of these regular plain websites with great information have been drowned out by a bunch of fluff and piles of sales pitches in the searches of life.


-------










Everything is SELF.

----------


## Mach

Just because reality doesn't always give us what we want doesn't mean it's not true.




> What we observe as material bodies and forces are nothing but shapes and variations in the structure of space. Particles are just schaumkommen (appearances). ... The world is given to me only once, not one existing and one perceived. Subject and object are only one. The barrier between them cannot be said to have broken down as a result of recent experience in the physical sciences, for this barrier does not exist. ... Let me say at the outset, that in this discourse, I am opposing not a few special statements of quantum physics held today (1950s), I am opposing as it were the whole of it, I am opposing its basic views that have been shaped 25 years ago, when Max Born put forward his probability interpretation, which was accepted by almost everybody. I don't like it, and I'm sorry I ever had anything to do with it. (Erwin Schrödinger, The Interpretation of Quantum Physics.)







> The notion that all these fragments is separately existent is evidently an illusion, and this illusion cannot do other than lead to endless conflict and confusion. Indeed, the attempt to live according to the notion that the fragments are really separate is, in essence, what has led to the growing series of extremely urgent crises that is confronting us today. Thus, as is now well known, this way of life has brought about pollution, destruction of the balance of nature, over-population, world-wide economic and political disorder and the creation of an overall environment that is neither physically nor mentally healthy for most of the people who live in it. Individually there has developed a widespread feeling of helplessness and despair, in the face of what seems to be an overwhelming mass of disparate social forces, going beyond the control and even the comprehension of the human beings who are caught up in it. (David Bohm, Wholeness and the Implicate Order, 1980)

----------


## chrono187



----------


## chrono187

You know, in some occult circles, we have rumors of an ancient Hindu  manuscript- foretelling the Future. This manuscript has become  collectively known as the "Book of Shivaga". I imagine this has  something to do with one their God, Shiva.

Shivaga, this ties in  with another Hindu idea called "Helter Skelter". Now, Helter Skelter,  this is the ancient Hindu prophecy of a great Race War to come. In the  Book of Shivaga, it is said that shortly after the Race War begins,  there will be a new Exodus of sorts. The manuscript prophecies that Man  will leave Woman. It is said that the "Venus vs Mars" mentality, will  end. The text describes a dimension where Man basically gave up  Good-Will Hunting, and went his own way. The Woman takes on  traditional Male Role, and leads. This caused a great outcry and  backlash from Venus. It is prophesied that once that cry is heard, and  backlash felt, this marks the beginning of our idea "Apocalypse".

Helter  Skelter is already here, and I think I found the next wave of  Enlightenment. If this Great Exodus had a foundation, or building block,  it must be this:

http://www.mgtow.com/

Tom Leykis is the Man.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> You know, in some occult circles, we have rumors of an ancient Hindu  manuscript- foretelling the Future. This manuscript has become  collectively known as the "Book of Shivaga". I imagine this has  something to do with one their God, Shiva.
> 
> Shivaga, this ties in  with another Hindu idea called "Helter Skelter". Now, Helter Skelter,  this is the ancient Hindu prophecy of a great Race War to come. In the  Book of Shivaga, it is said that shortly after the Race War begins,  there will be a new Exodus of sorts. The manuscript prophecies that Man  will leave Woman. It is said that the "Venus vs Mars" mentality, will  end. The text describes a dimension where Man basically gave up  Good-Will Hunting, and went his own way. The Woman takes on  traditional Male Role, and leads. This caused a great outcry and  backlash from Venus. It is prophesied that once that cry is heard, and  backlash felt, this marks the beginning of our idea "Apocalypse".
> 
> Helter  Skelter is already here, and I think I found the next wave of  Enlightenment. If this Great Exodus had a foundation, or building block,  it must be this:
> 
> http://www.mgtow.com/
> 
> Tom Leykis is the Man.


Ohhhh, look at how insightful this dung head is!  lol...

----------


## Ronin Truth

> The Meaning of Life is one of my all time favorites, found that 10 years ago along with the Christmas one, too, if it wasn't for http://web.archive.org/ the meaning of life would be, well, meaningless, the original site is gone. 
> 
> Here's another one I found way back which I may have already linked to on this post, it's all about _Truth and Reality_, or at least _a_ current perception of _it_..... .... it's a college of information.
> 
> http://www.spaceandmotion.com/
> 
> 
> It's sick how all of these regular plain websites with great information have been drowned out by a bunch of fluff and piles of sales pitches in the searches of life.
> 
> ...


Yes, and hooray for the archive.  (I just wish it were better indexed and easier to navigate.)

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Ohhhh, look at how insightful this dung head is! lol...


*"7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." -- (King James Bible, Matthew)*

----------


## Sola_Fide

> *"7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." -- (King James Bible, Matthew)*


That has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> That has nothing to do with what we are talking about.


But it has EVERYTHING to do with you.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> But it has EVERYTHING to do with you.


No, it has everything to do with you.  You are twice the Son of Hell the Pharisees were.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> No, it has everything to do with you. You are twice the Son of Hell the Pharisees were.



That's not what Jesus says.  But maybe your guy, Saul.

*"7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." -- (King James Bible, Matthew)*

----------


## chrono187

> Ohhhh, look at how insightful this dung head is!  lol...


Oh, sorry, he had to push his own agenda- so I got caught up in the  business of telling lies that sound true. I do apologize if my standard  of Fallacy does not meet _your_ gold-standard. Then again, it is  important for a Man to develop discernment. He must be able to separate  the wheat from the chaff, as it were. What is a Spiritual Truth without  some allegory, and abstraction? All the greatest stories, tales,  legends, myths, epics, and _Books_ are riddled with  interpretation. If One were to give profound Truth, in rawest form,  absent obscurity, Seeker would be removed from the equation. This would  be not only counter-productive, but also no Fun. It is the Seeker, the  one always looking, without end result. That is the Man I trust

_But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience._ - Romans 8:25 

_Trust_ a _person_ looking for the truth, _don't ever trust the one who's found it_. - Manly Palmer Hall

----------


## Mach

> Oh, sorry, he had to push his own agenda- so I got caught up in the  business of telling lies that sound true. I do apologize if my standard  of Fallacy does not meet _your_ gold-standard. Then again, it is  important for a Man to develop discernment. He must be able to separate  the wheat from the chaff, as it were. What is a Spiritual Truth without  some allegory, and abstraction? All the greatest stories, tales,  legends, myths, epics, and _Books_ are riddled with  interpretation. If One were to give profound Truth, in rawest form,  absent obscurity, Seeker would be removed from the equation. This would  be not only counter-productive, but also no Fun. It is the Seeker, the  one always looking, without end result. That is the Man I trust
> 
> _But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience._ - Romans 8:25 
> 
> _Trust_ a _person_ looking for the truth, _don't ever trust the one who's found it_. - Manly Palmer Hall


Duuude...... you don't think YOU are THE ONE that can see all of the hidden messages everywhere you look, do you?

----------


## jmdrake

I just click on this thread every few days for a good laugh.

----------


## chrono187

I know I am not the only one.

Has anyone else experienced this:

You  are out the Gym, or dining at a Restaurant. You go into the  Locker-room, and there are sloppy-pigs everywhere. You have, what I like  to call, the "Breathers". These are those creepy af guys who just  breathe really loud, in your direction. You know they are intrusively  staring, but you are a Gentleman. The breathing creeps you out, and  makes you curse these people in your head. That, however, is where it  ends. You walk out of the locker-room, then you hear a bunch of  sycophants whispering amongst themselves as if they have anything else  to talk about. Every now and then, you must shoot a daunting glare or  remove one headphone from your ear, to remind them you are not deaf.

----------


## chrono187

_"Daawg_, you don't see my *Face*? I'm _uncomfortable_ dawg. - *I don't know you*."

----------


## Sola_Fide

The mods should delete this thread.  Worst of the worst.

----------


## TER

Hi chrono187!  Have you met Sola, President of the Welcoming Committe of our Church!

----------


## chrono187

> The mods should delete this thread.  Worst of the worst.


That's probably not going to happen.

Have you ever had the feeling, like your Running, but your feet are not shuffling?

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Hi chrono187!  Have you met Sola, President of the Welcoming Committe of our Church!


He's been bumping it with nonsense post after nonsense post for 2 weeks.  At least Fire11 was funny.  I'd even take the Whitney Houston guy over this guy.

----------


## CPUd



----------


## chrono187



----------


## chrono187

Hey, Sola, are you of British descent?

----------


## chrono187

> He's been bumping it with nonsense post after nonsense post for 2 weeks.  *At least Fire11 was funny*.  I'd even take the _Whitney Houston_ guy over this guy.


I would hope would take Whitney Houston over Fire11.

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> The mods should delete this thread.  Worst of the worst.



Ha ha ha.  Hey jealousy!!!

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> That has nothing to do with what we are talking about.





> Ohhhh, look at how insightful this dung head is!  lol...





> It's very disrespectful to make nonsense posts.



Oh look, more posts from the person who is no longer the center of attention.  









> It shows a lack of respect for everyone reading.  The respectful thing to do is to make issues clearer, rather than be vague and cryptic. 
> 
> Even if you are talking about "mysterious" or "cryptic" things, the respectful thing to do is explain issues as clearly as possible.


Oh, the irony from the forum's resident mystic.

----------


## jmdrake

> The mods should delete this thread.  Worst of the worst.


I think your jealous that his thread out trolled your best.  You can no longer say "Glory to God!  I've got more responses and views than anyone on this subforum!"  Quantity doesn't mean quality.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> The mods should delete this thread. Worst of the worst.


Well, I agree that the mods should delete something.

----------


## chrono187

I want an answer to that question.

You see, I'm working on my _über_ Psychic craft. 

More importantly, I'm trying to evolve. I am trying to become Mewtwo.

So anyway, when I channel in, I see a Redcoat. If I laser-focus my channeling efforts, I begin to see a Red-Shield. I never did appreciate the depth of the Little Red Riding Hood allegory.

Am I warm? Do you have British or otherwise Aristocratic blood? I am trying to identify the primordial source of your unrealized elitism.

----------


## chrono187

This is what I am:



This is what I want to be:

----------


## chrono187

*Temple of Jehovi*


Through The Eyes of Lilith, ensurely.

*Oath*

I swear, and affirm, the following to be true and correct to the best of my knowledge:

_Truths_

#1 I don't know you.
#2 You, Man, is the Devil.
(1+2=3)
#3 I don't care about Sex.
(She doesn't care about Sex because A) She doesn't know _you_, and B) She believes you are Evil)

#4 Will do anything to remain in control, including *baby-harm*.
#5 Will give(surrender) temporary control, to maintain long term control.
#6 Will belittle, or otherwise slander your masculinity to make you feel little.
#7 Will attempt, in subtle ways, to lure and trap you in her Box- or collection of used hearts. To this end, her Oval is weapon primary.
#8 Will steal, in order to scorn and escape; to greener pastures.
#9 Will invent characters(acting) in order to avoid Self being witnessed.
#10 Keeps a record or tally of your uses, and contrasts with potential other mates.
#11 When comfort, or control, is under threat.. Will being crying- appealing to your Sympathy, or sense of Pity.
#12 Will break physical objects if physical safety is threatened by any perceived threat of *Abandonment*. 

#13 Will attempt bodily seduction in attempt to garner forgiveness- _Unlearned_ and without shame. Does not truly care how you feel, or what you think.
#14 *Irony*

Pray for me.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> I think your jealous that his thread out trolled your best.  You can no longer say "Glory to God!  I've got more responses and views than anyone on this subforum!"  Quantity doesn't mean quality.


No.  Of course not.  I'm not "tolling".  Trolling is offensive to me.  But any time that Biblical truths are revealed and debated, how glorious that is.  My posts aren't nonsense like these posts.  I always try to elucidate the issues and make it as clear as possible.  That my posts get so many views is one of the GOOD things about this forum.

----------


## acptulsa

> My posts aren't nonsense like these posts.  .


That's true.

This nonsense is polite and charming nonsense.  What's more, this nonsense is sensibly satisfied to hang out at it's own place and get guests by being nice to them.

Your nonsense is none of that at all.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> That's true.
> 
> This nonsense is polite and charming nonsense.  What's more, this nonsense is sensibly satisfied to hang out at it's own place and get guests by being nice to them.
> 
> Your nonsense is none of that at all.


That's not true.  My posts aren't nonsense and they aren't nuts like these are.  I always try to make my meaning plain and I always try to get to the point of what I'm talking about.

----------


## chrono187

> That's not true.  My posts aren't nonsense and they aren't nuts like these are.  I always try to make my meaning plain and I always try to get to the point of what I'm talking about.

----------


## chrono187

For the record, I carry _concealed_ weapons, but not when I go to probation.

Ponder this:

Could his Pride be worth more than your Life?
Does he have a history of firearm possession?

Can your neck be surgically opened, with a short-blade?
Your name is not Neo, but can you dodge stray-shells?

Is all of this just delusional fantasy? I don't know, my numbers went blind, can you count the Eyes?

Black is the color which zips closed that bag, it could also be Magic of the same which puts a blindfold over your eyes.

Hood-wink.

(He's just trying to survive- but not on his knees or with his hand-out)

----------


## chrono187

Woman, Mother, Friend:

"I'm trying to transform your _boys_ to Men like daycare".

----------


## chrono187

LOL, take note of the Blue interview.

----------


## chrono187

This is my Open letter to Corporate America, aka the Motel crew- What's yours is..well, Time:

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> That's not true.  My posts aren't nonsense and they aren't nuts like these are.  I always try to make my meaning plain and I always try to get to the point of what I'm talking about.




You relish playing a mystic.

----------


## chrono187

> You relish playing a mystic.


Yes, this is a _game_, and I'm having Fun.



Have you ever heard the military verbiage, "Hostile Takeover" ?

----------


## chrono187



----------


## chrono187

There's still more to this story, after David overcame Goliath, the bloodline conspiracy unravels. 

Someone once told me, Truth isn't stranger than you imagine, it's stranger than you can imagine:

----------


## Sola_Fide

Since this nonsense thread is turning from utter nonsense into a music thread, I'll post some good music into it:

----------


## Sola_Fide



----------


## Sola_Fide



----------


## Sola_Fide



----------


## chrono187

He will have his whey, "by Hook or by Crook"

http://www.infowars.com/obama-vows-t...itter-answers/

This is a Pharionic reference. Traditionally, the hook and crooke are tools used to herd sheep. To control sheep behavior, you either Hook it with your Lure, or whip it with you lash. These same principals are applied to the ancient science of human Shepherding. This is why Pharaoh carried these tools, as symbolic and archetypal representations of his Authority.  Now you know why Old Testament slaves always received lashings from the whip, pain was the preferred method of mind control.

It would be interesting to note how people are buried, the way their arms fold. These are very old understandings of Earth, and divinity. Rather, they are simply old traditions- not well understood by the average man.

----------


## chrono187

Sola, you can't hide. There are no rooms for Redcoats in America.

----------


## acptulsa

Seems like I've heard of another guy who tried to get The Good Shepherd fired and take His job.

What was that guy's name again?  Oh yeah--Mohammed.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Sola, you can't hide. There are no rooms for Redcoats in America.


Huh?

----------


## Ender

> Seems like I've heard of another guy who tried to get The Good Shepherd fired and take His job.
> 
> What was that guy's name again?  Oh yeah--Mohammed.


Mohammed did believe in Jesus- just not as we do.

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Mohammed did believe in Jesus- just not as we do.


Mohammed didn't believe Jesus was the eternal God of everything that exists.  Mormons don't either.

----------


## Ender

> Mohammed didn't believe Jesus was the eternal God of everything that exists.  Mormons don't either.


Yes, Mormons do- and this OP is NOT about Mormons, so stop. Now.

----------


## chrono187

> Yes, Mormons do- and this OP is NOT about Mormons, so stop. Now.


The forces of light, vs the forces of darkness. Mormonism has a pretty literal interpretation of this dichotomy, no? What are some disqualifies for admission?

Spiritual elitism..lol

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Yes, Mormons do- and this OP is NOT about Mormons, so stop. Now.


No they don't.   In Mormonism, Jesus is one of the spirit children of Elohim, who himself has not eternally been God.  Elohim is an exalted man.

Maybe you don't know what Mormonism teaches, or maybe you are trying to hide it.  Either way, you aren't going to get it past me because I know exactly what they teach.

----------


## chrono187

Shakespeare, aka Francis Bacon, received his inspiration from the Goddess, Athena.

Shake-Spear

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena

----------


## Sola_Fide

> Shakespeare, aka Francis Bacon, received his inspiration from the Goddess, Athena.
> 
> Shake-Spear
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena



You should get out of your own thread.

----------


## chrono187

> You should get out of your own thread.


Get out of my own thread, or head? I know where I am.

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> You should get out of your own thread.


Neg rep.  Attention whoring.  Narcissism.

----------


## chrono187

LOL

----------


## chrono187



----------


## chrono187

FORGOTTEN HISTORY

Once upon a time there was a planet known as 'Earth.'  This planet was a majestic wonderland of nature and organic beauty.  The inhabitants of the day were known for their wholesomeness and purity, as well as for their intimate connection with the Divine.  At this time there also lived, light years away, a race of Men who had set their sights on all the precious minerals Earth was abundant with.  Namely, Gold and Silver.  These elements were essential for the advanced technology that this race of Men possessed, such as the intergalactic vessels they arrived in.  This is so because Gold and Silver are the most electrically conductive elements known to Man.  They are arbiters of Energy.  One day these beings made that voyage to Earth to pursue their masterminded conquest of resources.  When they arrived, to their surprise, they were met with open arms by the masses.  The natives had never witnessed beings of such beauty before.  These beings were noted for their glowing fair skin, radiant hair, and unusual eye colors.  They also seemed to possess a profound intellect which rivaled or surpassed the native Elders.  Naturally, the masses began to worship these lofty creatures as Gods.  Little did they know.

There was, however, many wise-men who did not readily accept this perceived notion of Godhood.  These Light beings understood, that if they were to truly achieve global conquest, every knee must bow.  So one day a King among these beings approached the wise counsels of the natives with an ultimatum.  The being claimed that unless every man, woman, and child worshiped him as God, he would kill the Sun.  Hence crops would not grow, livestock would die, and naturally the people would perish as a result.  The wise-men scoffed at the notion, as ONLY God can make the Sun go up or down.  It is only God's will which maintains the life of the Sun.  The natives refused.  As promised, the next day at the precise time when the Being claimed, the Sun suddenly disappeared from the sky casting a great shadow of darkness over Earth.  The natives, in a panicked frenzy, began to grovel before the feet of this foreign being bestowing every title they had unto him.  Every knee in the land bowed, many natives even offered their firstborns as sacrificial offerings to this deity.  This being was crowned God and King, otherwise known as Pharaoh.  The descendents and heirs to this family claimed ruler-ship under what came to be known as the 'Divine Right of Kings.'  The rest is history.

The key to this story is Astronomy.  When these fair skinned beings arrived on this Planet, they brought with them an advanced knowledge of the Heavens.  They were aware of the dates of full moons, solar and lunar eclipses, etc.  The Man in this story did not have any real power, he simply had knowledge that the natives of the land did not possess.  He knew that on the date of worship, there would be a solar eclipse.  A Black Sun.  There would be an astronomical event taking place in which the moon passes in front of the Sun for a period of time, blocking its Light.  Thus conning and then deceiving the native people became a simple matter of child's play.  The ancestors and descendents of these families still work their magic on us to this very day.

Co-Sign, Glamma S

----------


## chrono187

This starts to slow down a bit as spring approaches, winter offers a better cover of protection. When the Light comes, the darkness ..waits.

----------


## Natural Citizen

Dang. This looks like a really, _really_ interesting topic just going by the editorial there in the header. A lot of pages, though. Anyone care to share a summary with regard to where everyone is on agreement or disagreement as a group?

----------


## moostraks

> Dang. This looks like a really, _really_ interesting topic just going by the editorial there in the header. A lot of pages, though. Anyone care to share a summary with regard to where everyone is on agreement or disagreement as a group?


Someone is the eggman, another is the walrus, and a certain person damns it all to hell.

ETA OP should stay mew and not evolve further. My 2 cents anyways...

----------


## Natural Citizen

> Someone is the eggman, another is the walrus, and a certain person damns it all to hell.


Yeah? Dang. That makes me want to read the whole thread now. A lot of times, I'm interested in the difference in perception of things. Some people think that I cheerlead others but that really isn't the case. I finally got finished with the Hell Fire thread. So that was interesting. 

When I saw the thread title it was really interesting. At this point in my life, I'm in agreement that the language of "God" is in mathematics. Of course, the reason for that I'd likely have to scribble up a short book to explain. Likely not worth the effort if we have one of those reglar old squabbles happening here. I'm not ready to personify the phenomenon at the moment. Is that what we see in the Seal of Daniel?

----------


## moostraks

> Yeah? Dang. That makes me want to read the whole thread now. I finally got finished with the Hell Fire thread. So that was interesting. 
> 
> When I saw the thread title it was really interesting. At this point in my life, I'm in agreement that the language of "God" is in mathematics. Of course, the reason for that I'd likely have to scribble up a short book to explain. Likely not worth the effort if we have one of those reglar old squabbles happening here. I'm not ready to personify the phenomenon at the moment. Is that what we see in the Seal of Daniel?


Yeah cliffs notes version thread had potential but chaos reigns supreme. I'd read your book. Have many a Waldorf book for teaching math in an esoteric manner. Since I love math and outside the boxness, it developed more of my spiritual awareness irt numbers and mathematics as a whole. When I get a chance (likely tomorrow) I'll hunt the title for a really cool math book that was exceptionally awesome at teaching the otherness of numbers just in case anyone might be interested.

----------


## Natural Citizen

> Yeah cliffs notes version thread had potential but chaos reigns supreme. I'd read your book. Have many a Waldorf book for teaching math in an esoteric manner. Since I love math and outside the boxness, it developed more of my spiritual awareness irt numbers and mathematics as a whole. When I get a chance (likely tomorrow) I'll hunt the title for a really cool math book that was exceptionally awesome at teaching the otherness of numbers just in case anyone might be interested.


Sure. Share the book.

----------


## CPUd

> Dang. This looks like a really, _really_ interesting topic just going by the editorial there in the header. A lot of pages, though. Anyone care to share a summary with regard to where everyone is on agreement or disagreement as a group?


Recap in this post still mostly applies:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5804807

----------


## Natural Citizen

> Seal of Daniel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thoughts?


What you have here is a satanic cult symbol. 


Here is my old avatar. Do you see the difference?



Mine is a simple mathematical model of the geometry of a theoretical "door" or "gate" between dimensions. Maybe research the Schläfli double six. 

It's actually a great topic. What you're calling the mathematics of "God" isn't the mathematics of "God" at all from the position that people who understand the cosmos in an elevated way would place it into perspective with a Christian worldview. What you have here is deception.

----------


## Natural Citizen

> Seal critique.
> 
> 
> 
> Not a square, circle, triangle or line. Naturally occurring (as far as we know, I suppose I should caveat). These are hexagons (several of them nested inside each other, even).
> 
> With regards to your 360 degrees discussion, it's not magic, it's the definition humans have assigned to the terms "degree", "square", "triangle" etc. A tautology.
> 
> Also, your square is a rectangle and most definitely not a square.


You know, that's been there since the first Voyager fly-by in 1980 that we _know_ of.  It's just ammonia clouds, really. But there are certainly some interesting physics going on there. I suppose that if you went looking for that then you know it already. I can't believe it's still there like that.

There aren't several. It's a double hexagon. It's big too. You can fit 4 Earths inside of it side by side. If you look at infra-red model, what is happening there is that the clouds are racing backward along the edges of the hexagon at over 300mph. And they are making the 60 degree turns like they're on rails. They also go deep into the "core" of the gas planet.

----------


## moostraks

> Sure. Share the book.


Teaching Mathematics in Rudolf Steiner Schools for Classes I - VIII by Ron Jarman. Waldorf books are ,well, gems that are worthy by the word rather than known for long works of explanations. Most of the book revolves around what to teach, how to teach it, with examples, but the first few chapters discuss looking at Mathematics in a new manner from what the average student is taught on the subject. Highly recommend to anyone looking for a new way to look at the subject.

----------


## chrono187

> What you have here is a satanic cult symbol. 
> 
> 
> Here is my old avatar. Do you see the difference?
> 
> 
> 
> Mine is a simple mathematical model of the geometry of a theoretical  "door" or "gate" between dimensions. Maybe research the Schläfli double  six. 
> 
> It's actually a great topic. What you're calling the mathematics of  "God" isn't the mathematics of "God" at all from the position that  people who understand the cosmos in an elevated way would place it into  perspective with a Christian worldview. What you have here is  deception.


Your old avatar, at root, is just two  triangles overlapping. What you have is one triangle pointing up, and  one pointing down- a Hexagram/Star of Satvrn(as above, so below). Then,  we have what appears to be, a 3 dimensional triangle(pyramid), pointing  up. Alchemical, I imagine this to draw-in energy from the Heavens, and  manifest in material. This, by the way, is exactly what Pyramids are  designed to do. Their placement on Earth mirrors special star  alignments, founded upon Earth's natural ley-lines, or "pressure  points". They natural energy generators, designed to not only receive  aether data, but output as well. Think of the Pyramids as if they were  Earth Breasts, or conductors of Source energy.

Anyway, how is  this a "satanic cult symbol" ? I re-created this myself, using my own  Pencils, and besides- The Power comes not from the Seal, but rather Her  interpretation. I believe my interpretation of these Mysteries to be  pretty well grounded, albeit a scatter-brain or two.

In so far as Seal of Daniel is concerned, this Clip comes to mind- beginning at 1:35,

Blue Magic

----------


## Natural Citizen

> Anyway, how is  this a "satanic cult symbol" ?
> 			
> 		
> 
> You just answered your own question...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


chrono187, you seem sincere in your interest in what you've recreated there. Where did you get it?

Aside - My old avatar, at its root, is a projetion of a geometric and mathematical premise for spatial dimensions.

----------


## chrono187

> chrono187, you seem sincere in your interest in what you've recreated there. Where did you get it?


I did not get it. I was a part of an Occult study group, and one of the Elder members invited me to a location.

The original Seal was on an Alter,  atop 6 steps. The Seal was removed from it's glass encasement, and I had 60 minutes to re-create it, sitting in this old wooden school-like desk.

Don't ask me where the Location was, as I truly do not know. These guys were quite secretive- shady characters.. but Friendly and Amiable.

----------


## chrono187



----------


## Natural Citizen

Goodbye, chrono.

----------


## chrono187

> Goodbye, chrono.

----------


## chrono187



----------


## Natural Citizen

> 


.........................

----------


## chrono187



----------


## Sola_Fide



----------


## Natural Citizen

> 



Seems like its purpose is to put us in the company of a few other freak sites around the web. It's like it just popped up in sync. Of course there is a great underlying discussion to be had with regard to some of the content here. Specifically, deception given the age in which we live. Of course, if you remember that last thing that I'd mentioned to you there in the +rep comment then perhaps you understand what I meant. Hit me up on the pm later or something, S_F.

----------


## chrono187

> Seems like its purpose is to put us in the company of a few other freak sites around the web. It's like it just popped up in sync. Of course there is a great underlying discussion to be had with regard to some of the content here. Specifically, deception given the age in which we live. Of course, if you remember that last thing that I'd mentioned to you there in the +rep comment then perhaps you understand what I meant. Hit me up on the pm later or something, S_F.


Sorry Pal, your little World as you was knew, is anew. You are dumb, deaf, and blind.

I'm claiming King, who _begs_ to differ?

Kingdom of Water, Avatar.

----------


## Sola_Fide



----------


## acptulsa

> Yes, this is a _game_, and I'm having Fun.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever heard the military verbiage, "Hostile Takeover" ?


As many abortive attempts as he has made to do just that to your thread, one would think you'd have no need to ask.  Amusing to see which whores are green with jealousy because you know how to make people _want_ to pay attention.  While they post self-portraits.

But you have made the thread he can't hijack.  Because he _is_ hostile, and watching you have fun is far more fun.

Elitism is tiresome.  Must be why Jesus denounced the stuff.

----------


## Sola_Fide



----------


## chrono187

> As many abortive attempts as he has made to do just that to your thread, one would think you'd have no need to ask.  Amusing to see which whores are green with jealousy because you know how to make people _want_ to pay attention.  *While they post self-portraits*.
> 
> But you have made the thread he can't hijack.  Because he _is_ hostile, and watching you have fun is far more fun.
> 
> Elitism is tiresome.  Must be why Jesus denounced the stuff.


I didn't see that until you pointed it out. It's as if they are trying to audition for something, with eyes watching. It's like, dude, be Yourself- stop Equity Climbing. Your Baby-boy satchel just can't harvest those cloudless, impeccable Pink diamonds..lol

----------


## chrono187

In the interest of premeditation, Spring brings the Mayday call, 1st of Maya.

So what do you guys think of Monsanto, and the other branches, or tentacles, of IG Farben?

----------


## Sola_Fide



----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

This is a great thread.  And funny.  I just rated it 5 stars.  OP, you should start another on a different subject.

----------


## chrono187

You know, I can't be the only one who sees this..

Anyone else watch the I-Heart Music Awards?

America seems to have a British infestation problem, I can see the same loyalist Soul that a Countryman would have scorned in 1775.. And how about those Country singers? Is that what a real American cowboy looks like? No, not these timid little actors/entertainers. Jewish money just can't turn a lapdog into a genuine southerner; of the Highwayman breed. These people probably look at themselves in the mirror, and cringe in confusion.

You have a bunch of spoiled brats with their aristocratic Dialects, getting awards they didn't earn. You were hand-chosen for that award, even I can see that from the other side of my Gnosis screen.

Speaking of British Elitism, what ever happened to that missing 13th Amendment?

I'm all for Lawyers being just as equal as the rest of us in Orwell's Animal Farm.

http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/essays/gen...3th-amendment/

----------


## chrono187

> This is a great thread.  And funny.  I just rated it 5 stars.  OP, you should start another on a different subject.


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...17#post5825217

----------


## chrono187

Imagine if we started seeing moore of this in Court, all parts:

----------


## chrono187

> Seal of Daniel
> 
> All existence is comprised of Shape  and Matter. The physical realm, or   plane, consists of only Four basic-  or rudimentary shapes. When these   shapes are intertwined, we begin see  patterns and Matter- known as   Archetypes. They lay the foundation for  the entire Universe outside,   and within us. These basic shapes are,  simply, the Circle(O), Square(☐), Triangle(△),   and Line(~). Everything  you see around you, all Matter, is made up of   these shapes. This is  found in the principles of Sacred Geometry. All   shapes are  mathematically connected to each other, and create some   pretty  interesting patterns when placed together, in synchronicity-   union.
> 
> 
> 
> As  you know, a Circle has 360 degrees, or points of Light. A Square has    four corners, perfect 90° angles within each corner. It also has four    sides. If you add up the corners, mathematically, it equals that of a    Circle- which is 360°. 90x4=360. Now, a triangle has only 3 corners,  and   3 sides. Each of those corners are measured at 60°, if it is a  perfect   triangle. 60x3=180, which is half of, and thus measurably  equated to   360. Perfect Symmetry. When you start dividing, and thus  multiplying the   Square, we notice some pretty interesting symbols.  Ancient symbols,  the  Mystery archetypes. This is the foundation of all  Magic and  sorcery.
> 
> The  first symbol you may notice is the Square and Compass, the   Freemasonry  symbol. This is also an ancient symbol of Fertility; sexual   union. The  triangle pointing up ^ represents the Yang, (Fire,   Masculine) or  Creative Force within the Universe. Athame. The V   represents Yin, Water,  the Divine Feminine, or Dark but receptive Force   in the Universe. It is  also shaped like a cup, that which holds  water,  the Chalice, or Womb.  When merged, we get what can be  recognized today  as the international  symbol of Freemasonry; Absent  the G.
> ...


You know what I _just_ realized? The platform was *cursed. * A Curse is simply a proverbial Black Seed for the subconscious mind.  You  see, I could have said this proves God as it displays a lucid,  clear  representation of the infinite circle of Life. Your Soul is  Eternal, as  all mathematics, numbers, shapes, form, matter- Everything  is connected.  This is evidence of a Loving, benevolent creator who gave  you Free Will  to do as thou wilt, offering infinite chances to  start-over. You can  never make too many mistakes if there is Light at  the end of the tunnel,  or an Awakening in your nursery-room. If the Circle of Life is eternal,  then you always evolve, or recycle- Reincarnation. 360° of *Forever*.

But no, you  freaked out over some wacko theory, and caused irrevocable  damage to the  consciousness of Society. You were working from the  base-mind of a Prisoner, as per the *Curse*. Your  feeble-mind went from Plato's Cave, to  Daniel's Den. Catholics, they  would call this Dante's Inferno. It all could have been avoided.

So, in conclusion, many people were hurt or killed in the production of this theory- Most Regretfully so.

Please start educating yourself. There are REALLY big devils in their NWO system.

There is Good, there is Evil, and then there is Truth. Truth stands  outside the boundaries of a Good/Evil paradigm. The only way you find  Truth is if you seek, Truth comes from Knowledge- not conscription or  indoctrination. Law is the only way out, short of bloody revolution.

Peace

----------


## chrono187



----------


## Sola_Fide



----------


## Sola_Fide



----------


## Ronin Truth

Since matter is only 4% of the content of the universe, there must be a whole lot of shape.

----------


## chrono187

> Since matter is only 4% of the content of the universe, there must be a whole lot of shape.


It's all about interpretation, our beliefs and perspective Shape the 4% of Matter we have to work with.

If only 4% of your Universe is Matter, what are the other fractions?

----------


## Ronin Truth

> It's all about interpretation, our beliefs and perspective Shape the 4% of Matter we have to work with.
> 
> If only 4% of your Universe is Matter, what are the other fractions?


Correction: 4.6%  http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/media/121236/index.html

----------


## chrono187

> Correction: 4.6%  http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/media/121236/index.html


In my Crystal ball, somewhere I see a CERN employee- or Director.  Now, recent events have elevated to their recklessness, yet the progress being made is unprecedented. So, if the World comes to an End, we have all the advanced space weaponry. Francis Bacon, he wrote a book called The New Atlantis, and in he predicted the Resurrection of Atlantis in the "New World", aka America.

Am I close?

----------


## chrono187

Can you tell me about this "Dark Energy", and what it means?

----------


## Natural Citizen

> Can you tell me about this "Dark Energy", and what it means?


Dark energy reflects the positive energy which makes up the universe itself. Of course, we get into its relation to the energy of the vaccum itself, too. Some interesting things are coming from continued study of string theory. In fact, I had shared a short once over on string theory in the science and tech thread. But since you are here asking about such things and given the way that you have _demon_strated yourself, I suspect that you aren't serious. Perhaps sincere. But not serious. That's just my take.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Can you tell me about this "Dark Energy", and what it means?


https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...60._ZYSSKis33Y

----------


## Ronin Truth

> In my Crystal ball, somewhere I see a CERN employee- or Director. Now, recent events have elevated to their recklessness, yet the progress being made is unprecedented. So, if the World comes to an End, we have all the advanced space weaponry. Francis Bacon, he wrote a book called The New Atlantis, and in he predicted the Resurrection of Atlantis in the "New World", aka America.
> 
> Am I close?


 Personally, I tend to doubt it.

----------


## chrono187

> Dark energy reflects the positive energy which makes up the universe itself. Of course, we get into its relation to the energy of the vaccum itself, too. Some interesting things are coming from continued study of string theory. In fact, I had shared a short once over on string theory in the science and tech thread. But since you are here asking about such things and given the way that you have _demon_strated yourself, I suspect that you aren't serious.* Perhaps sincere. But not serious.* That's just my take.


I guess that depends, what do you mean by "serious" ?

----------


## chrono187

> Personally, I tend to doubt it.


Personally doubt, Self or Scrying?

----------


## CPUd



----------


## chrono187

When I say Pencil and Paper, I mean did you follow his Math?

Listen not to the Voice. Hear the words he speaks, but follow the numbers.

Men lie, women lie, numbers don't.

This guy is trying to convince you that 6 = 4.

----------


## VIDEODROME

At glance, it just looks like clever algebra.

----------


## chrono187

Lol, look, I'm a dead-man walking.

I'm literally laughing right now, marveling at how far I've made it.

I'll tell you what though, someone is going to Die before I do. I'm nice with the draw like Da-Vinci and Michelangelo. Trust me, I've already practiced in the woods, killed you like 1000 times.

Word.

----------


## CPUd



----------


## chrono187

LOL, the Mew Check Norris.

https://twitter.com/beyoncefanfic

----------


## chrono187

Npslp

http://fija.org/

----------


## chrono187

David Icke offers great material, Truth. He also conducts meaningful interviews, imo.

But what do you guys think about this idea of a Reptilian Conspiracy- an Alien force that exercise influence over Earth, and it's inhabitants?

Could we be Governed by a Race of Reptiles from the "Draco" Star System?

----------


## Ronin Truth

https://www.google.com/search?q=rept...gbv=2&oq=&gs_l=

----------


## chrono187

The Swareh Root of 36, is 999, Right?

You know when someone says everything is, "A-Ok"? What you are looking at is a 5 Star- 666.

That first ring is for the _Lion_, then the other 3 are for 36- not One. Get it? Saying everything is "A-OK", in proper context, is akin to the Devil winking at you before she Lays you to Rest.

They have been using this Tricknology for a while.

----------


## chrono187

This guy went to Cuba, had to slide-off and work abroad. 

I bet you didn't know that!

http://www.thetalkingdrum.com/afeni.html

----------


## Ronin Truth

> This guy went to Cuba, had to slide-off and work abroad. 
> 
> I bet you didn't know that!
> 
> http://www.thetalkingdrum.com/afeni.html


You are correct.  

Furthermore, I really couldn't care less.  

What else ya got?

----------


## chrono187

> You are correct.  
> 
> Furthermore, I really couldn't care less.  
> 
> What else ya got?


Just getting started.

----------


## chrono187

You know, I can't find it, but I remember reading of a peculiar Account  with regard to the Creation of the Great Seal of America.

According  to arcane Americana Legend- there was a mysterious, Hooded Mystic whom  appeared one Lofty evening during early American debates. This Seeker  carried with him Occult Designs, Ancient Veils, and Primordial Wisdom  illustrated on Old Parchment. When the Founders were crafting the Great  Seal, there was no clear consensus as to it's Final Design. It was said  that this Man appeared in the Wet of Night, during a raining Summer's  Eve. When the Founders were presented with this Mystic, the Designs he  brought with him became what we know today as the Great Seal of the  United States of America. The Founders reached their Consensus.

This  Mystic, after sharing his Revelation, was said to have disappeared Back  into the Wooded-Darkness of American Wilderness. The Name and Identity  of this Mystic was never realized, though we still _War-Ship_ that Almighty dollar today.

http://dcsymbols.com/

----------


## chrono187

Schala, known to her Brother as "Baby-Harm", opens the 7th and Final Seal. 

In Christian Culture- this is known as the Last, and Final, Seal of the Apocalypse. 

In Elden, or Ancient Civilization of Antiquity, *Harle* is known as the *7th Dragon* from the_81st Dimension_.

http://chrono.wikia.com/wiki/Schala
http://chrono.wikia.com/wiki/Harle

----------


## chrono187

LOL

1:40-2:15

These people can't really be that dumb. That's too Funny to be true. Pardon Self, have you ever heard the monetary verbiage, "Royalty Check" ?

----------


## chrono187

You want to know how the Economy collapses?

The Federal Reserve stops issuing currency and credit, as Believers begin to burn their Greenbacks.

Don't worry though, it's OK. There are a few things keep currency moving, or the flow of sea-current.. _Curren_*cy*.

What Path do these Slaves take?

?

Door 1: Mark of The Beast, 666, or Digital-Plant. Shall they take the Microchip, or face loss of Material Wealth?

http://biblehub.com/revelation/13-17.htm

16And  he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and  the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or  on their forehead, 17and  he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one  who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his  name. 18Here  is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the  beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred  and sixty-six.

Ohh, Well, now we're just getting started.

----------


## chrono187

lol 

Texas be like

----------


## chrono187

So, I wasn't wearing my Tin-Foil Hat when this picture was taken, but I promise. Furthermore, He his glasses on, so those really do look like Black Helicopters.

40.4478° N, 74.2484° W

..

N40.45955° W74.24681° (NAD83)

(Waterfront) Laurence Harbor, NJ.

Time Stamp:

----------


## chrono187

_First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist._ 
_Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—_ 
_Because I was not a Trade Unionist._ 
_Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—_ 
_Because I was not a Jew._ 
_Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me._  - Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)

Enjoy your Police State/Military Dictatorship. See you in Hell.

----------


## heavenlyboy34

> Magic 8 ball sez:  "Tom Paine does cool quotes."


Indeed.  It's like he could foresee what it would be like to debate Constitutionalists...

----------


## Sola_Fide

> David Icke offers great material, Truth. He also conducts meaningful interviews, imo.
> 
> But what do you guys think about this idea of a Reptilian Conspiracy- an Alien force that exercise influence over Earth, and it's inhabitants?
> 
> Could we be Governed by a Race of Reptiles from the "Draco" Star System?



Oh dear...

----------


## chrono187

Ok, think Black Helicopters. Then, imagine, Niggas in Germany.

..Circa 1938-Present

----------


## chrono187

Did you know people don't go to "Hell" if they commit Suicide? They go to Heaven, reach the Gate, and then is recycled back unto Earth. From Earth, their Soul finds a suitable Womb. Then, they see the Light, and the Doctor confirms Gender. You Live on Forever.

Check your national Suicide Statistics in _6 days_tem.

----------


## chrono187

You know how we solve Political Drama? We hop in our Epoch, and travel back to 1804. 

Do you remember what happened with Burr and Hamilton on July 11? Once Upon a Time, Men were Men. That Archie Bunker theme-song comes to mind.. "When Boys were Boys, and Men were Men!"`

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_duello
http://chrono.wikia.com/wiki/Epoch

Or...

Off with their heads? 

As it turns out, not only does Chanel make nice handbags, but they also produce BEAUTIFUL guillotines in France!

http://beforeitsnews.com/healthcare/...t-2454424.html

----------


## Sola_Fide

Please stop...

----------


## chrono187

> Please stop...


Why?

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Did you know people don't go to "Hell" if they commit Suicide? They go to Heaven, reach the Gate, and then is recycled back unto Earth. From Earth, their Soul finds a suitable Womb. Then, they see the Light, and the Doctor confirms Gender. You Live on Forever.
> 
> Check your national Suicide Statistics in _6 days_tem.


But you only get to come back as an eggplant. And it just keeps on getting worse and worse each additional time until you finally learn your life lessons.

----------


## chrono187

So, there are many confused Christians out there. Let's talk about who Jesus was, and who he wasn't.

First of all, Jesus was a Man of Color, as observed in John's Vision on Patmos:

http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-14.htm

…13and  in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in  a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden  sash. 14His head and *His hair were white like white wool*, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15His  feet were like *burnished bronze*, when it has been made to glow in a  furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters.…

So, I ask you, what ethnicity has hair like Wool, and skin of Bronze?

With  that said, if you are looking for a European-Savior archetype, study  early American History. Stop wasting time reading the New Testament, and  read the Old- the World is still like this. The Old Jews still  to follow those Old Rules. By the way, last I checked, Jesus never  created a nation for his Free People- the Europeans did. The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth wes a _Beautiful_ Failure.

My opinion on Jesus? He  had a good run, but he was not a practical Man. What kind of fool loves  their enemies? Oh yeah, the kind of fool that finds himself stapled to a  cross. I don't know about your "God", but mine doesn't lose, let alone  beg for forgiveness on behalf of the very people who crucified him. That  sounds kind of like bleeding heart; liberal tomfoolery.  The road to  Hell, they say, is paved with Good intentions:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...28&version=ESV

28 For  which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and  counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.


I  don't mean any disrespect by this, but isn't the point of War to die  not for yours, but rather, to make that guy die for his? Rest in Peace  to your Fool of God, the Peaceful Lamb of Jehovah, Jesus..

Do you believe in an Afterlife?

Then I ask you, Love or War? 

Jesus or Justice?

----------


## chrono187

lol Goodnight

----------


## Sola_Fide

Please stop...

----------


## chrono187

> Please stop...


Why?

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Why?


Because he just doesn't like it. 

Carry on!   Because I do.

----------


## acptulsa

> Because he just doesn't like it. 
> 
> Carry on!   Because I do.


Me too.

Don't even stop to ask whiny bitches why they are whiny bitches.  Who cares?

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Me too.
> 
> Don't even stop to ask whiny bitches why they are whiny bitches. Who cares?


I like it! 

I just may add that line to my stolen quote line collection.  

Good one. 

Thanks!

----------


## chrono187



----------


## chrono187

I was watching some GOT youtube videos- and is it just me, or does Edward(Robert Pattison) from Twilight Saga bear an uncanny resemblance to Joffrey(Jack Gleeson) from Game of Thrones?

So we have Emilia Clark(Daenerys) and Kristen Stewart(Bella), and now it appears we have Edward the Vampire and King Joffrey.

Who exactly are these Bloodlines?

----------


## Ronin Truth

I don't really see a very close resemblance, sorry.

----------


## CPUd



----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> Please stop...



I predict a 30 page thread will cause Soda Fudd's head to explode.

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> ...(Jack Gleeson)



No man, there is only one Jackie Gleason.  And he ain't no pretty boy.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> I predict a 30 page thread will cause Soda Fudd's head to explode.


I just may be willing to pay, to see that. LOL!

----------


## chrono187

> I don't really see a very close resemblance, sorry.


Really? Perhaps I'm just seeing things.

0:18-0:26

So I just woke up, and after watching Joffrey a more times, I believe I have another solid reading. This one is _bet_ more personal. It came to me after the common thread arrogance subsided, and things started coming together. 

Ok, this one may take some literal reading, and street-smart.

So  Joffrey does a take-scene between a new character called "this nigga  guy", and this kind of real-life "the evil guy", archetype. This is sort  of a Testament to the dualities we find in Nature, as well as within  the human psyche. The angel on one shoulder, devil on the other- this  imagery feels _nearly_ appropriate.

TELL ME I'M WRONG:

So,  "this nigga guy", this is an invention of "the evil guy".  Now, to  understand the former, let's study the latter- which I think also  happens to be Primary, lol. Anyways, I think I can build a psychological  profile on Joffrey. When you watch this video again, I want you to  imagine a cross between General Dracul(Vlad the Implaler) and Thomas  Malthus. After One makes this synthesis, add a dab of Arrogance- the  Kind of arrogance we only see in Politics. This is King Joffrey.

So,  "this nigga guy", here we find Dracul taking a backseat to the "Wisdom"  of Malthus. This is Malthus looking at all the proverbial "Light" these  "Niggas" now have, and so his Third Eye says, "I still think Dracul has  more Light, because Malthusian Eugenics says so." Then this sort of  cognitive dissonance takes place and creates a unique kind of humor and  psychopathy that I don't see being appreciated by most.

Thoughts?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthusianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_the_Impaler

----------


## CPUd

Where your theory falls apart is that it doesn't take into account that Joffrey's mother was also his aunt, and nobody really gives a $#@! about him anymore.

----------


## chrono187

> Where your theory falls apart is that it doesn't take into account that Joffrey's mother was also his aunt, and nobody really gives a $#@! about him anymore.


Right, so at the top of *you* CIA pyramid, Truth meets Art.

What you are really telling me is you personally, you do not give a $#@! about his Mother. You are using misdirection when referring to that Boy who is about to face a Guillotine. You think Mother Cersei should should stand in his place, accept fault and take bvlame. You know what I think? I believe in every Epic, Legend, Myth, Fairy Tale, Holly-wood Story- You must to be able to interpret allegory. You want to play Game of Thrones? Let every side take their positions. So is you Fearful of what they have done, or what they are yet to do? I think if War is inevitable, allow everyone touch Home base- and regroup. The verbiage "Take your mark, get set, Go!" comes to mind.

All is not fair in Love and War.

Meet Mother Circe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circe

----------


## chrono187

> Where your theory falls apart is that it *doesn't take into account that Joffrey's mother was also his aunt*, and nobody really gives a $#@! about him anymore.


This. You are saying nobody cares about Joffrey because he is a product of incest. True?

----------


## chrono187

This, what are you really telling me? Am I the only one who is supposed to see the Paint?

The word "Paint" is often used by Artists and others as a symbolic representation of blood.

Are you trying to tell me something, Save the Paint?

http://www.jordanmaxwellshow.com/
http://cuttingthroughthematrix.com/

----------


## CPUd



----------


## CPUd



----------


## chrono187

Ok, I didn't think I'd say this, but.. how about that UN Treaty?

Imagine  a World where all those who were unwilling to keep and bear arms, lose  their "Right" to do so. I think the State can be turned into something  useful. Why not give the slaves exactly what they deserve? The price one  must pay for cowardice, and complacent stupid.

Ok, basically,  Game of Thrones can only play out Live if we disarm the slobs, and  ignorant proles. So whomever allowed themselves to be domesticated, let  Tyranny rain down on them. I want to see some real action.

I am willing to sell a part of my soul on this One- I swear, _and_  affirm, Political Allegiance to whomever can make this happen, and  prove it. I mean make that happen, like there is nothing that would make  me happier than seeing *white-walkers* with knives, maybe swords.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews...istmas-present

----------


## Sola_Fide

Please stop....

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> I am willing to sell a part of my soul on this One-



And speaking of selling souls, how about some stories where the protagonist sells his soul?  

And how about Robert Johnson?  That guy didn't even get anything in the here-and-now like the others.  He must have made a deal with FDR.

----------


## chrono187

> And speaking of selling souls, how about some stories where the protagonist sells his soul?  
> 
> And how about Robert Johnson?  That guy didn't even get anything in the here-and-now like the others.  He must have made a deal with FDR.


Oh, you mean, a New Deal?

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

FDR's raw deal.

Here's Steve Vai in that devil Crossroads movie.  A dumb movie, but fun to watch if you just want some dumb entertainment.

Not sure, but I think Vai played both parts of this duel.

----------


## CPUd



----------


## Ronin Truth

Since God invented the integers, maybe his language is really Arithmetic.

----------


## chrono187



----------


## chrono187

I hoped it would not come to this. The signs in the Stars, here on the ground too.. the grid just went dark. This is inevitable, but there is Hope. You ever heard of the book, "The Next Million Years" ?

Research the connection between the Darwins, and Wedgewoods. Your are under every kind of attack imaginable to the Dark Odyssey. You are dying, Physically, with poison in your food and water- and Spiritually. This is Total War, do you see the Metal Birds everywhere? The Holocaust, this is a Yiddish word, meaning Burnt Offering. Your body is being offered up as a Ritual Sacrifice to the God of Fear. There is no "Hero" that is going to "Save" you, please start educated yourself and others. I am not a Christian, but their idea of "End Times" feels very appropriate. There is Time, albeit not much.

----------


## chrono187



----------


## chrono187



----------


## CPUd



----------


## chrono187

James 4:1-2

1What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members? 2You  lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot  obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not  ask.…


Matthew 10:35-7

34"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; 36and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.

Matthew 24:6

5"For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. 6"You  will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not  frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the  end. 7"For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.…

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 
> 
> "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.
> 
> Etc.
> 
> Etc.



I think these passages are very often misinterpreted, or, at a minimum, not viewed in their entirety .  I think it has much more to do with each individual's internal conflict than some type of dramatic and apocalyptic world conflict.  These passages have been used for all kinds of inappropriate political action well beyond the individual.  The very least would be moralistic movements, such as temperance.  The worst would be colonialism or genocide.

There are also certain people on certain forums who use these passages to reinforce their own drama queen apocalyptic views.  They believe their insights are somewhat unique, which practically results in a God complex.  The literal world battlefield is too big for their crusade, so the internet is the next best thing.  These self-appointed forum members are not the deranged man claiming to be Jesus of the world, but that does not stop them from acting like Jesus on the world wide web.

----------


## CPUd



----------


## chrono187

= ?????

----------


## chrono187

Ok, so I have this thing I have to take care of tomorrow, and I'm not sure how it will go.

I  could go on for hours about this stuff, but I'll save the Time.  Everything you have ever been told has been a lie, your God, everything.  This is most devastating where Islam is concerned.

Summary:

Every  God you have ever had, they were just Kings. To yield a proper  understanding of this, we must go back to ancient Sumeria. To yield a  current understanding, look no further than the Vatican and British  Monarchy.

There is a hierarchy to these Spirits/Daemons/Angels.. and it goes like this,

Anu (EL in Phoenicia Cannae, Chronos in Greece, Saturn in Rome)

Father Time, Grandfather Clock, Bohemia, Owls, etc.

This Deity Anu, he had 2 children. These children were named Enki, and Enlil. They were half brothers.

Enki (Satan, Ptah, Prometheus, Poseidon, Neptune)

Enlil (Jehova, Zeus, Thor, Jupiter)

This is where our story begins, with Enki and Enlil. These Beings both went on to have families of their own.

Enki  had two children by his half-sister, Nin-Khursag, who was known as  "Mountain Queen". He also had a child with another Woman by the name of  Damkina, who bore his first child- Marduk.

Marduk, you may know  his Blood by Nimrod of Babylon, Ra, and then his Son, Gilgamesh. It is  interesting to note, Marduk is Father of Maat, and Bast of Egypt- Cat  Goddess and Lady Justice(Libra Scales).

The Second Son of Enki,  his name is Enoch. This is where we find the Source of all Magic, the  Arts and Sciences. Enoch went by Thoth in Egypt, Hermes in Greece,  Mercury in Rome, and Quetzalcoatl in Mexico/Aztec.

We find the  Story of Adam and Eve with Marduk. According to Ancient History, Man was  created by Marduk on behalf of his Father to mine Gold, Silver, and  other precious Earth resources. Man was created with the Earth, and a  slain General, Kingu of Tiamat- which also happens to be the name of a Planet.  Tiamat, in some traditions, is known as Lucifer. So what we really have  here, is African Genetics- and Alien(God) DNA.

Ok, so now onto  Jehova, and his 2 Wives, Nin-Khursag, Mother of Ninurta(Yahweh)- and  Ninil, Mother of Nanna(Sin) and Nergal(King of Underworld).

Nanna,  married a Woman by the name of Ningal, they had a Daughter by the name  of Inanna. Now, Inanna, She later became known as Ishtar in Babylon and  Isis in Egypt. She also had a Brother named Shamash, Son of Ningal. Now,  Inanna married a Man by the name of King Damu-zi. This King, he was  known as Adonis, Tammuz, King Osiris, and today- Allah.. more on that in  a bit. He also happened to be Seed of Enki, if that tells you anything.  So, Inanna, she had a Sister, also Daughter of Ningal-  Eresh-Kigal(Queen Nether). This Woman married Jehova's Son, Nergal. You  do see the incest on both sides, True?

This is where things start  getting Fun. Nergal and Eresh-Kigal had a Daughter, who was appointed  to be Adam's first Wife. She was the original Woman, but fled the Garden  because she refused to be submissive to Adam, or Adapa. We are told she  even refused missionary sex, as she would not be dominated, even  Sexually- she commanded Equality. When Adapa attempted to Rape her, she  left him all alone in the Garden. Adam cried out to God, who sent 3  Angels to retrieve his Wife. She refused to return, claiming Equality as  she was made from the same Star Dust. They told her that he would have a  new Woman, so she cursed him and all his future offspring. This is  where we get the tales of Psycho Woman, Baby-Killers. Think, Hansel and  Gretel- Queen of Sheba. We are talking about Medusa, Lily, and Maleficent.  Lilith es the Niece of Inanna(Ishtar). Eve, she was Adapa's SECOND  Wife, made from his own Heart- not the same Material. So, she could  never hope to be equal to Adam, as she is a subordinate by Virtue of  Creation. It is also interesting to note, Lilith and Saturn have a  remarkably similar Magickal Sigil.

With that said, Islam is  probably the most insidious Lie to ever exist. Those who practice will  tell you it was the Original Religion, which is not true- Hinduism is.  Islam is, however, the First religion to start worshipping Men. You see,  King Damu-zi, Adonis, Allah, He was a Military General/King from  orginial Sumer. The Histories claim that he reigned for 36,000 years.  While that may sound strange, there are some who believe we already have  "Life-Extension" techologies, they are the Elixirs of Gaia. So it is  said that these God/King Beings lived for unusually long periods of  time. One last thing to point out, the number 36 in numerology is very  significant. 6 to the 3rd power, is 666. Though that may sound _dramatic_, 6 also happens to be the Alchemical numer for the Element, Carbon. Mankind is a Carbon-based Life form, No?

Anyway,  you might want to learn about Iraq and Iran. Biblically, these are very  important lands. Iraq is what we call Babylon today. Iran is the Home  of ancient Sumeria. The Military Wing of ancient Sumer, remember the  movie 300? That was Persia.

You might want to ask yourself what why we are fighting in Iraq and Iran. I'll let you ponder that for a bit.

http://biblehub.com/genesis/6-4.htm

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when  the sons of God *came in unto* the daughters of men, and they bare _children_ to them, the same _became_ mighty men which _were_ of old, men of renown.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_King_List
http://shoebat.com/2012/09/13/the-ol...ence-to-allah/

----------


## chrono187

The Khaleesi, Daenerys Targaryen, She has another Pseudonym,

http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Princess_Zelda

----------


## chrono187

Are they ready for this one?

----------


## chrono187

Multiculturalism, Lol. That was a great idea, huh? I wuv all da aminals.

----------


## chrono187

10/26/1986

Exactly 5 days before *Samhain* , when Earth is most welcoming to other-worldly _baeings. 

_When we look at this day in _Hist_ory we find,

Scandal
Conquest
Revolution
War
Politics/Gossip
Pivotal Moments

http://www.on-this-day.com/onthisday...days/oct26.htm

When broken down numerological, you are a Perfect 6. Your Seer numbers are 915- Birth, Life, and Matter/Earth.

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> 10/26/1986
> 
> [/I]When we look at this day in _Hist_ory we find,
> 
> Scandal
> Conquest
> Revolution
> War
> Politics/Gossip
> Pivotal Moments




Wasn't that the anniversary of the OK Corral Gunfight?

----------


## Ronin Truth

What's the difference between Sumer and Sumeria? (and don't say 'ia'.)

----------


## chrono187

Pardon self lol, had to just throw this in rye quicK:

https://www.facebook.com/MrTechnical...6/?pnref=story

----------


## Sola_Fide

Please...

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> What's the difference between Sumer and Sumeria? (and don't say 'ia'.)



Summer lasts from June to Sept.  Never heard of that other season.

----------


## chrono187

> Summer lasts from June to Sept.  Never heard of that other season.


You read the Tree, and climbed first.

Sumer was the original name, later on it became "Sumeria", to appease the Women. As She pointed out, Sumer is where we get the word Summer.

Iran is very _dry_, and Hot. Make sense?

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> You read the Tree, and climbed first.
> 
> Sumer was the original name, later on it became "Sumeria", to appease the Women. As She pointed out, Sumer is where we get the word Summer.
> 
> Iran is very _dry_, and Hot. Make sense?



I did not know the etymology of summer.  Maybe I missed it.  Thanks.

So, girls are named Summer and Autumn, but I guess Winter would not cut it.  I could see Spring.

Girls are also named April, May, and June.  Also heard a woman or two named January.  I could see September because that is the stuff of romantic songs.  October would be to harsh sounding.  Could see November or December.  Every girl I ever knew named April was probably closer to the slutty side than the scholarly side.

----------


## chrono187

> I did not know the etymology of summer.  Maybe I missed it.  Thanks.
> 
> So, girls are named Summer and Autumn, but I guess Winter would not cut it.  I could see Spring.
> 
> Girls are also named April, May, and June.  Also heard a woman or two named January.  *I could see September because that is the stuff of romantic songs*.  October would be to harsh sounding.  Could see November or December.  Every girl I ever knew named April was probably closer to the slutty side than the scholarly side.


So, you sipped Amber, and what did that Sun-Light tell you?

----------


## NorthCarolinaLiberty

> So, you sipped Amber, and what did that Sun-Light tell you?



LOL.  Say wut?

----------


## chrono187

> LOL.  Say wut?


^.^

----------


## chrono187

Ok, you sipped it, how did it taste?

----------


## chrono187

From Esther Vilar's Book, The Manipulated Man:

"Women let men work for them, think for them and  take on their responsibilities – in fact, they exploit them. Yet, since  men are strong, intelligent and imaginative, while women are weak,  unimaginative, and stupid, why isn’t it men who exploit women?"

"Why do women not make use of their intellectual  potential? For the simple reason that they do not need to. It is not  essential for their survival. Theoretically it is possible for a  beautiful woman to have less intelligence than a chimpanzee and still be  considered an acceptable member of society."

"By the age of twelve at the latest, most women  have decided to become prostitutes. Or, to put it another way they have  planned a future for themselves which consists of choosing a man and  letting him do all the work."

And a few slightly modified quotes..

"It is true that cats get progressively more  elegant, more well-groomed … but their demands on life will always be  material, never intellectual."

"The sort of independence men have  means nothing to cats, because cats don’t feel dependent. They are not  even embarrassed by the intellectual superiority of men because they  have no ambition in that direction."

"There is one great  advantage which cats have over men: they have a choice – a choice  between the life of an alley cat and the life of a dimwitted, parasitic  luxury item. There are … few cats who would not select the latter"

"A  cat will always be pleased if a man turns to look at her … . Her  pleasure may be compared to that of a shareholder who finds that his  stocks have risen. It will be a matter of complete indifference to a cat  if he is attractive or looks intelligent. A shareholder is hardly  likely to notice the color of his dividend checks."


"A  cat’s greatest ideal is a life without work or responsibility – yet who  leads such a  life but a child? A child with appealing eyes, a funny little body …  that darling miniature of an adult. It is a child that a cat imitates …   its helplessness, its need for protection. A cat must be cared for; it  cannot look after itself. And what species does not, by natural  instinct, look after its offspring?"

"A cat takes interest only in subjects that have an immediate personal usefulness to her."


This is what almost every single Boy in your life looks like right now,

----------


## Ender

> From Esther Vilar's Book, The Manipulated Man:
> 
> "Women let men work for them, think for them and  take on their responsibilities  in fact, they exploit them. Yet, since  men are strong, intelligent and imaginative, while women are weak,  unimaginative, and stupid, why isnt it men who exploit women?"
> 
> "Why do women not make use of their intellectual  potential? For the simple reason that they do not need to. It is not  essential for their survival. Theoretically it is possible for a  beautiful woman to have less intelligence than a chimpanzee and still be  considered an acceptable member of society."
> 
> "By the age of twelve at the latest, most women  have decided to become prostitutes. Or, to put it another way they have  planned a future for themselves which consists of choosing a man and  letting him do all the work."
> 
> And a few slightly modified quotes..
> ...


Whoever wrote that silly thing doesn't know much about cats.

Cats are like men- feed me, pet me, leave me alone. And cats can take care of themselves; it is the dog that cannot and is like having a 2 year old for the rest of your life.

----------


## chrono187

> Whoever wrote that silly thing doesn't know much about cats.
> 
> Cats are like men- feed me, pet me, leave me alone. And cats can take care of themselves; it is the dog that cannot and is like having a 2 year old for the rest of your life.


Nono, Cats just want babies. They don't care about that 2 year old Dog, or the Black Widow.

----------


## chrono187



----------


## chrono187

Haha

----------


## Ronin Truth

*Sumer vs. Sumeria* https://www.google.com/search?q=Sume...gbv=2&oq=&gs_l=


http://www.up.edu.ps/ocw/upinar/mood...r_Sumerian.pdf

----------


## chrono187



----------


## chrono187



----------


## chrono187

So, there was a Second American Revolution. We rewind the Clock, and  return to 1812. Then, we knock over that King piece, and Slaughter every  last British _rabble_. So in hindsight, that Rothschild money was replaced with Black Gold, and blue-back *Serpents*.

Did  you know Russia, the El Heffe, Vladimir Putin- War is the only way to  to to stop Monsanto/House of Windsor/Herbert/Sachs/Goethe,

----------


## Ronin Truth

If God's language is mathematics, shouldn't the Bible be numeric? 

Does that explain why the answer to the universe question is '42'?

----------


## chrono187

> If God's language is mathematics, shouldn't the Bible be numeric? 
> 
> Does that explain why the answer to the universe question is '42'?


Lol, oh, the Bible is numeric. The number 144,000- 300k MAX Capacity comes to mind. I don't know about Noah's Arc, but you know what I do believe? I do believe a Yacht designed to carry 144,000(Max-Cap 300k) can be constructed.

Women, Open:

Less legs, more books.

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Lol, oh, the Bible is numeric. The number 144,000- 300k MAX Capacity comes to mind. I don't know about Noah's Arc, but you know what I do believe? I do believe a Yacht designed to carry 144,000(Max-Cap 300k) can be constructed.
> 
> Women, Open:
> 
> Less legs, more books.


  Well there is that Bible book named 'Numbers'.  

The Fourth Book of Moses: Called Numbers

 (King James Bible, Numbers)

----------


## Ronin Truth

*The Mathematical Universe
*http://arxiv.org/pdf/0704.0646.pdf

----------


## chrono187

Told yah!

(inside J)

http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Dopey

----------


## chrono187

Can someone explain to me Easter Sunday occurred March 31 in 2013, then April 20'th last year, and April 5th this year?

Who makes these decisions anyway, and for what reason? Are these like "Signs" or something, designed for those with "eyes to see" ? What do these dates symbolize, or signify?

What movements in the Stars create date changes for Easter?

----------


## CPUd



----------


## chrono187

> 


Neophyte Rabbits vs Chicken-Hawks?

----------


## Ronin Truth

> Can someone explain to me Easter Sunday occurred March 31 in 2013, then April 20'th last year, and April 5th this year?
> 
> Who makes these decisions anyway, and for what reason? Are these like "Signs" or something, designed for those with "eyes to see" ? What do these dates symbolize, or signify?
> 
> What movements in the Stars create date changes for Easter?


https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...37.RFbH2Qd19jA

----------


## chrono187

> https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...37.RFbH2Qd19jA


Paschal was an Artist, albeit not a illustrious one. There were those who were good at illustrating, and those Good at seeing Nature in numbers, or vice verse. There were those who painted with intellect, and those who lived in dream-land.

I think there is a connection, albeit a polarity between two opposing forces.

What do you guys think about Deism? They believe that Man can be exalted to the Goddess by honoring Earth with creation. There is a reason why Elden civilization liked to create Castes and Statues. They believed by memorializing themselves, they became truly immortal- as their Mirror/Face would always be seen... lOL, think Mount Rushmore. The vulk of noteworthy Founding Fathers were Deists, and Freemasons. These were not Christians or Jews, for the most part.

_Nickels and dimes_- This is where poverty Magic turns the tables.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luciferianism

----------


## chrono187

The first step to proving my guilt in any criminal proceeding is establishing Reasonable Doubt.

So, reasonable doubt is Defined, and then proven beyond said Element.

His guilt must  be proven beyond any reasonable doubt, the innocent have nothing to prove.

Your entire Family will be dead from mental illness or cardiovascular  before you have evidence to prove a negative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasona...bt_%28album%29

----------


## chrono187

*“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who comes near that precious jewel. Unfortunately, nothing
will preserve it but downright force. When you give up that force, you are ruined." - Patrick Henry* 

The House of Thornberry probably looked something like this,

----------


## chrono187

http://blowmeuptom.com/

Lesbian Owned Sperm-Bank,

https://www.pacrepro.com/index.php?g...FU4Q7Aodj0gANw



Maybe they don't have to die, they cannot procreate:

----------


## chrono187

This was never about God, it's ownly the Truth.

Tower of Babble

Babylon. Babble-on. Babel-On Bahhh-Bell, Babe EL ON or if you just sound it out.. baby-lion.

Where  do you think the word "Bib" comes from? That sulfur linen necklace to  keep food from spilling on their bodies. That's the bib I am referring  to. Oh yeah, the _Bib_el.

You people are so ignorant it's  pathetic- Slaves to the State, and cavtpive to your own Fear of Fam.  Look at you, poison in your food and water won't ruffle your feathers,  duck? Do Men in Halloween-Costumes or Black Helicopters flying over your  head change anything? You know what Halloween Costumes I am referring  to? The Slave Masters incarnate as they watch you burn, and fall into a  pit of Tyranny;

I want you to now imagine with love your domesticated husband, then look at your groom and think- Pussy.

LOL  imagine how cowardly those Men with guns you are? How about those  "hunters" and other Cop peasants. So, I had a friend in Heaven who  thought to himself, look at all those _prole_ cops.

----------


## chrono187

You better get up on your reading, boys and girls.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/ebod/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_New_World
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm

----------


## chrono187

This, is my Inhaler- all Natural and 6x more effective:

----------


## Ronin Truth

> You better get up on your reading, boys and girls.
> 
> http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/ebod/
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_New_World
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm


http://www.hermetics.org/pdf/sacred/BookOfDead.pdf

----------


## wizardwatson

> http://www.hermetics.org/pdf/sacred/BookOfDead.pdf


http://www.t-o-o-l-s.net/

----------


## chrono187



----------


## CPUd



----------


## chrono187

> *Temple of Jehovi*
> 
> 
> Through The Eyes of Lilith, ensurely.
> 
> *Oath*
> 
> I swear, and affirm, the following to be true and correct to the best of my knowledge:
> 
> ...

----------


## chrono187

Ok guys listen, in the next couple hours I am going to deactivate my Facebook for 5 days time. I predict we will see a sudden surge in Crime, theft, robbery, and extortion in particular. I also predict there will be many "crimes of passion", and the pulse of Facebook will change entirely. I believe we will see lots of late-night philandering and human-mating. I think I can predict the Future, seriously. I'm going to try my hand now in the Social Sciences.

If we can get a Mod to make this thread completely invisible to anyone who is not a member of ronpaulforums.. that would be great. 

From Today, until the 10th.

I don't have access to the kind of numbers and statistics you guys do, but I will keep my ears to the Streets. I put my Word on my predictions.. I'm pretty confident about this one.

----------


## chrono187

lol yo, whatever spare spies or whatever, I'm starting to feel the hell already.. from inside my apartment.  I'm still tryna leave the house and go to the gym, you know food shopping and stuff.

Are we on a secure line now?

Whoever this is lol

----------


## chrono187

Nobel Prize in Sociology?

http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...lch-facts.html

----------


## chrono187

Ok, maybe we have to wait until Summer, that's when these predictions will be unavoidable.

----------


## acptulsa

> Can someone explain to me Easter Sunday occurred March 31 in 2013, then April 20'th last year, and April 5th this year?
> 
> Who makes these decisions anyway, and for what reason? Are these like "Signs" or something, designed for those with "eyes to see" ? What do these dates symbolize, or signify?
> 
> What movements in the Stars create date changes for Easter?


Some years the tortoise is able to sneak by the napping Easter Bunny and win the race.  And other years he steps on a twig and Easter comes early.

----------


## chrono187

3 Days now, I have no more realistic predictions to share.. Observation.

 I tink tis will be different from last time, 3 days will look like 50.  The moment Chrono-Trigger was pulled.

Brace yourself.

----------


## chrono187

That is her one day, just not anytime soon, with Her child.

----------


## Mach

> 


*
Pi 1998 Movies HD Full Movie* 




Pi 1998 Movies HD Full Movie 
Pi 1998 Movies HD Full Movi
Pi 1998 Movies HD Full Mov 
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## chrono187

Bump.

This seal/sigil, and it's interpretation, was channeled to me at the time I created it.. I believe by the Egyptian God Thoth, whom I was working with at the time.  Thoth, who would be like the Greek equivalent of Hermes, or the Roman equivalent of Mercury. It was divinely inspired, and was created in a Freestyle manner. It was almost as if I closed my eyes, and free-handedly created this with my Third Eye.  It was the strangest thing... and I believe I may have been possessed for a period of time, directly coinciding with the creation of this Seal.  I had Tremendous psychic powers while being, perhaps, 'under the influence'.

I've come to find that this illustration is actually a Microcosm of the Universe itself, and practically speaking, it acts as a literal Portal for Entities from other dimensions to come to and fro.

It's currently 'inactive', but I had a vision that it could be re-opened, the portal ,by utilizing blood magick.  Essentially, pricking my finger with a diabetes lancet, and marking the Seal where the thumbprints originally gave it Life.

What are your guys thoughts on this?  I've been meditating on it a lot recently.  It is currently tacked on the wall right above the black obsidian scrying mirror.

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## chrono187

It also induced what could have been viewed as classical "Manic" or "Mania" type symptoms.

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## chrono187

The ultimate goal would be to invoke, and return to me all the psychic powers that were previously endowed upon me, whilst keeping a foot in this realm of reality and not getting lost in the spiritual plane.  It's a very difficult balance to maintain, as you become engulfed with raw ethereal energy and intense spiritual power.  In some cases it seems, on this Path, if not careful, One may end up trading their mental stability as it relates to this realm in exchange for said 'Powers'.

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