# Think Tank > U.S. Constitution >  Good/bad time to join the Marine Corps?

## crushingstep7

The reason I post this under the US Constitution forum should be obvious.  
I love this country, and I would never follow orders which violated the Constitution.  
I hear all this stuff about economic collapse, martial law, UN troops, etc. etc...

bad idea?  I'm seriously considering becoming a Marine and thought it might be a good idea to consult those in the Liberty Forest

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## torchbearer

it would be nice to have friendlies on the inside. just be prepared to be court martialed when you refuse to participate in unconstituional wars or refuse to obey immoral orders.

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## crushingstep7

On the inside?  How is it, that the united States' armed forces are the enemy?

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## torchbearer

> On the inside?  How is it, that the united States' armed forces are the enemy?


no, but the laws are being put in place to make the people who resist tyranny the enemy.
i'd rather have liberty guys in the military than neocon retards who will shot civilians on command. you know- like the DHS report labeling supporters of Ron Paul as domestic extremist. ever read the MIAC report?

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## MsDoodahs

It is never a good time.

Have you talked to Adam Kokesh?

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## disorderlyvision

> It is never a good time.
> 
> Have you talked to Adam Kokesh?


This

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## crushingstep7

I've read the DHS report on Right Wing and Left Wing Extremism.  Haven't heard of the MIAC report.  How could US Marines or DHS thugs end up shooting/rounding up American citizens??  I see that as decently unlikely (although, these are turbulent times).

And would anyone like to provide a link or statements from Kokesh?  Or maybe Adam could explain himself why he thinks it'd be a good/bad idea.

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## torchbearer

> I've read the DHS report on Right Wing and Left Wing Extremism.  Haven't heard of the MIAC report.  How could US Marines or DHS thugs end up shooting/rounding up American citizens??  I see that as decently unlikely (although, these are turbulent times).
> 
> And would anyone like to provide a link or statements from Kokesh?  Or maybe Adam could explain himself why he thinks it'd be a good/bad idea.


here is the MIAC report: http://www.scribd.com/doc/13290698/T...eport-20Feb09-

when the economy collapse- you will be called on to reign in the domestic terrorist.
we need people like you in the military to convince others not to do so.

but on the other hand- if you follow the consitution, you won't make it that long because you'd be bound not to fight in undeclared wars.

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## crushingstep7

I understand your concerns - believe me.  But again, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate.
What does domestic terrorism have to do with economic collapse?
Does anyone know the States' definition of "domestic terrorist"?  

And while there might be Unconstitutional War being waged, I do find terrorism and jihadists to be an issue - and have no problem with them being systematically wiped off the face of the planet.  Excuse me if that's controversial on these forums, but no - I don't believe 9/11 was an inside job.  Yes, I do believe some people want to do us harm because of our prosperity.

I'll be back on in a bit hopefully - excuse me if I'm not quick to respond.

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## torchbearer

> I understand your concerns - believe me.  But again, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate.
> What does domestic terrorism have to do with economic collapse?
> Does anyone know the States' definition of "domestic terrorist"?  
> 
> And while there might be Unconstitutional War being waged, I do find terrorism and jihadists to be an issue - and have no problem with them being systematically wiped off the face of the planet.  Excuse me if that's controversial on these forums, but no - I don't believe 9/11 was an inside job.  Yes, I do believe some people want to do us harm because of our prosperity.
> 
> I'll be back on in a bit hopefully - excuse me if I'm not quick to respond.


the president- by his will alone can claim any US citizen to be a terrorist and enemy combatant- stripping them of habeus corpus and all their rights.
meaning- one person defines who is a terrorist. it is not defined by law.
if you have a problem with jihadist, have you considered getting like minded people together, and you spend your own money fighting the islamofacist whereever they hide?
if you can't afford it, i'm sure there are plenty of people who would supply you with the necesary equipment.

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## crushingstep7

> the president- by his will alone can claim any US citizen to be a terrorist and enemy combatant- stripping them of habeus corpus and all their rights.
> meaning- one person defines who is a terrorist. it is not defined by law.
> if you have a problem with jihadist, have you considered getting like minded people together, and you spend your own money fighting the islamofacist whereever they hide?
> if you can't afford it, i'm sure there are plenty of people who would supply you with the necesary equipment.




It's as easy as that?  There's no sort of judicial review, congressional oversight, or other check/balance?  I'd like to know what piece of paper you're referring to, ie. Executive Order, Bill or Statute.

And hey, find me the right people with the resources and I'd be glad to.

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## torchbearer

> It's as easy as that?  There's no sort of judicial review, congressional oversight, or other check/balance?  I'd like to know what piece of paper you're referring to, ie. Executive Order, Bill or Statute.
> 
> And hey, find me the right people with the resources and I'd be glad to.


first stop is the military commission act: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...ubl366.109.pdf

ACLU breaks down the law if you don't want to read it all yourself: http://www.aclu.org/national-securit...sions-act-2006




> In the final hours before adjourning in 2006, Congress passed and the president signed the Military Commissions Act (MCA). In doing so, they cast aside the Constitution and the principle of habeas corpus, which protects against unlawful and indefinite imprisonment. They also gave the president absolute power to designate enemy combatants, and to set his own definitions for torture.


and last- some good reading to give you an idea of how you can help with the jihadist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rough_Riders

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## crushingstep7

‘‘§ 948a. Definitions
‘‘In this chapter:
‘‘(1) UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT.—(A) The term ‘unlawful
enemy combatant’ means—
‘‘(i) a person who has engaged in hostilities or who
has purposefully and materially supported hostilities
against the United States or its co-belligerents who is
not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who
is part of the Taliban, al Qaeda, or associated forces);
or
‘‘(ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of
the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006,
has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant
by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent
tribunal established under the authority of the
President or the Secretary of Defense.

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## crushingstep7

Does anyone here plan on being the above?
Hope not.  

So, seriously, how could any reasonable person be deemed an unlawful enemy combatant or domestic terrorist?

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## torchbearer

> Does anyone here plan on being the above?
> Hope not.  
> 
> So, seriously, how could any reasonable person be deemed an unlawful enemy combatant or domestic terrorist?


read the MIAC report.

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## crushingstep7

I actually have.  Just didn't recognize the title..
you need to understand that not all Ron Paul supporters are reasonable people lol

Yes, it's bull$#@! that they're not being politically correct.  
I don't know man, I was honestly hoping for more authentic responses.

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## torchbearer

> I actually have.  Just didn't recognize the title..
> you need to understand that not all Ron Paul supporters are reasonable people lol
> 
> Yes, it's bull$#@! that they're not being politically correct.  
> I don't know man, I was honestly hoping for more authentic responses.


so the SLPC pushes out a report through the administration into what looks like a real report to local law enforcement to warn them of Ron Paul supporters as domestic extremist and you want something more authentic?
that wasn't a $#@!ing joke. that is how easy it is to be labeled a "terrorist".
and once you are labeled that- you have no rights.

right after the patriot act was passed law enforcement used it to bust a meth lab under "bio terrorism", had that bust happened after 2006 those people could have been labeled enemy combatants.
Do you remember Chris Mathews stirring up the histeria over the guy carrying an AR-15 at an obama rally? that is all it takes.
political enemies will be silenced in the same way because what is good for the administration is what is good for america and if you oppose the ruling class you are a threat to 'america'.
every law that is created is later used in ways it was not intended.
You don't feel threatened by the MCA? you should, because it could be you that is its victim. it is not restricted to foreign nationals only.

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## crushingstep7

I don't remember reading anything that said having a Ron Paul bumper sticker etc. could be evidence of one's status.

Yes, law enforcement and government in general, CAN be abusive, in busting criminals - assumed criminals - and the innocent.  But could you cite the case you referred to where Meth Labbers were busted under the pretext of bio-terrorism?  
And could you define enemy combatant under the US Code and MCA?

Sure, if the definition of "enemy combatant" is general enough, a scary situation could arise for many Americans.  So why hasn't it?

And how likely is it that a person would be labelled such??  And would it really go unnoticed - and stand with the American people?

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## torchbearer

> And how likely is it that a person would be labelled such??  And would it really go unnoticed - and stand with the American people?


You trust Obama and those that follow him to be benevolent and only use the law for real terrorist?
I already showed you a small example of how they misuse the laws.
They have incredible power to destroy your entire life.

I didn't even mention bumper stickers, but if you are in law enforcement and you get a memo that all Jay Leno fans are potential terrorist and you get behind a car that has a I love Jay Leno bumper sticker- you will run their plates and possibly find a reason to pull them over. Just from the memo.
Obviously the example is absurd, but its true. get a warning about Ron Paul supporters, you will take note of anything that says Ron Paul on a person property.

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## bucfish

When those that think they are above the LAW run the country are in power.  Then it is time God shows them that he is the law and will snuff them.

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## torchbearer

> When those that think they are above the LAW run the country are in power.  Then it is time God shows them that he is the law and will snuff them.


if a divine intervention happens tonight, he will have made a believer out of me.
until then, we suffer- as that must be the 'divine plan'.

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## Baptist

I will never join the military and I will never fight for this government.  I do not care what the circumstances are (errr, what we're told the circumstances are, rather), I will never fight on behalf of the United States.  

There was a great article posted here in the past few weeks that you can't support the Constitution and the troops.  You should read it.

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## Thesemindz

The military exists to agress upon foreign nations, and, in moments of domestic crisis, agress against soverign citizens. A standing military serves absolutely no defensive purpose. It can not defend the population, or the homeland, especially in the face of weapons of mass destruction. It can not prevent invasion, or terrorism, or foreign agression. It exists to agress, not to defend.

On top of that, the american military is directly responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands, and possibly millions, of deaths of innocent civilians around the world in the last decade alone. It is a murder machine working on overtime.

No. I do not think it's a good time to join the military. Unless you want to participate in the slaughter of peasants across the world and eventually be recalled to slaughter peasants here at home.


-Rob

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## Pauls' Revere

> It's as easy as that?  There's no sort of judicial review, congressional oversight, or other check/balance?  I'd like to know what piece of paper you're referring to, ie. Executive Order, Bill or Statute.
> 
> And hey, find me the right people with the resources and I'd be glad to.


For starters: The Patriot Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act

_The USA PATRIOT Act, commonly known as the "Patriot Act", is a statute enacted by the United States Government and signed into law by President George W. Bush on October 26, 2001. The contrived acronym stands for Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001 (Public Law Pub.L. 107-56).

The Act increases the ability of law enforcement agencies to search telephone, e-mail communications, medical, financial, and other records; eases restrictions on foreign intelligence gathering within the United States; expands the Secretary of the Treasury’s authority to regulate financial transactions, particularly those involving foreign individuals and entities; and broadens the discretion of law enforcement and immigration authorities in detaining and deporting immigrants suspected of terrorism-related acts. The act also expands the definition of terrorism to include domestic terrorism, thus enlarging the number of activities to which the USA PATRIOT Act’s expanded law enforcement powers can be applied._

*This doesn't sound very constitution-like to me. If you join you will be defending documents like this. If this document rubs you wrong you know what to do.*

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## Adam Kokesh

crushingstep7, I PM'd you my number if you want to discuss this.

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## 0zzy

> crushingstep7, I PM'd you my number if you want to discuss this.


I think this was a trap to get Adam to send his phone number to him. 

GENIUS PLAN!

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## Icymudpuppy

Some people are jealous of our prosperity, but that is not why they hate us.

Want to end islamofascism?  Try a christian principle.  


> "Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.  Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven.  Give us this day, our daily bread, and *Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us*.  Lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil, AMEN."


Let's try forgiving them, and begging them to forgive us for 70 years of interventionism installing cruel dictators over them, and destroying their national sovereignty.

I believe that will keep new terrorists from coming to be, and half the old horses will also be placated.  The die-hards, will eventually die off.

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## crushingstep7

> crushingstep7, I PM'd you my number if you want to discuss this.


Would love to.  
I'll post back to everyone letting them know what I took from the conversation.

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## Baptist

> Would love to.  
> I'll post back to everyone letting them know what I took from the conversation.


Sweet.  Can't wait.  I went to my first anti-war protest two semesters ago.  The only Iraq Veterans Against the War member on campus gave a speech there.  Afterward I asked him if he was aware of Kokesh.  He told me that he heard Kokesh speak, and that is why he joined IVAW.

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## angelatc

If Adam can't do it, nobody can.

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## Pericles

If you want combat experience, thinking that it might be useful at a later time, you will be likely to get it.

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## TinCanToNA

> If you want combat experience, thinking that it might be useful at a later time, you will be likely to get it.


Well he might receive training, but the chances of getting actual combat experience would be much lower than you might think, unless you define combat experience as experiencing the aftermath of an IED.

Joining the Marines is a decision to not be taken lightly.  Since you are here looking for perspective, that shows you clearly have an open mind on things.  Any morbid curiosity will be satisfied, I'm sure.  You will certainly gain invaluable skills, traits, and friendships which you will not receive a similar composition of anywhere else.  There are positives and negatives to every major decision, after all.

Just always keep in mind that when joining the military, you are submitting yourself for years of servitude.  In my case, being in the Navy, it is absolutely evident that my service is in support and defense of the Constitution.  Your experience may differ.  If you find out later that it doesn't suite you, then you will have to tough it out for however many years are left on your contract.

I haven't been in the sands, and as a Marine you have a substantial likelihood of multiple deployments there.  Keep that in mind when evaluating my comments.

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## Uriel999

I've stayed out of this thread for a bit, but I am planning on joining the Marines soon myself. Within about 3 weeks I should be going off to MEPS and then I will be in the DEP. I am against the wars, but I want that damned anchor, eagle and globe bad.

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## Icymudpuppy

> I've stayed out of this thread for a bit, but I am planning on joining the Marines soon myself. Within about 3 weeks I should be going off to MEPS and then I will be in the DEP. I am against the wars, but I want that damned anchor, eagle and globe bad.


YouTube - War is a Racket by Smedley Butler

Watch the whole thing.  There is a part at 3:50 where he talks about medals, uniforms, and how the elite get the foolish young men as recruits pursueing "glory" and "recognition".

"Napolean once said, 'All men are enamored of decorations, they positively hunger for them'.  So, by developing the Napoleanic medal system, the government learned it could get soldiers for less money because the boys liked to be decorated".

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## TonySutton

I do not have a problem with liberty minded young people joining the armed services.  They will learn skills that may very well be a commodity in years to come.

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## crushingstep7

Ok, so I talked to Adam last night and I have to say, we had a very solid conversation.  It was nice throwing ideas out there and hearing what he had to say - often times from a pretty philosophical angle.  

I don't have time to outline all of it right now - it'd be a $#@!ty read if I tried posting it before I went to bed tonight.  But I'll have it up in a couple of days. 

Sorry lol
Stay in tune for Adam's view!

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## osan

> The reason I post this under the US Constitution forum should be obvious.  
> I love this country, and I would never follow orders which violated the Constitution.  
> I hear all this stuff about economic collapse, martial law, UN troops, etc. etc...
> 
> bad idea?  I'm seriously considering becoming a Marine and thought it might be a good idea to consult those in the Liberty Forest



Tough question.  From an orders standpoint, it is the worst time.  You will be shipped out to fight an illegal and immoral war against people we have no real fight with, save that manufactured to justify war.

From a having morally sufficient, non-automaton soldiers standpoint, it is always good.

I would not join the military for any money at this point.  I have no intention of getting all blowed up for absolutely no good reason.  As far as I can tell, the USA has been in two justifiable wars, the revolution and 1812.  Since then we have not defended our shores, but only gone in to pull someone else' s bacon out of the $#@!, or to  flex our muscles for whatever corrupt cause.  Yeah, we were attached in 41 by the Japs... after Roosevelt spent years $#@!ing with them, so that doesn't count.

I'd say that US culture needs to change to make civilian militarism a greater part of the national personality, not unlike it is in Switzerland.  Make the entire adult population a well trained fighting machine.  $#@! standing armies, no offense to any career military people here.

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## crushingstep7

_I'd say that US culture needs to change to make civilian militarism a greater part of the national personality, not unlike it is in Switzerland. Make the entire adult population a well trained fighting machine. $#@! standing armies, no offense to any career military people here._

I hope you're not talking about anything compulsory.  The only people that would be citizen soldiers... well, ARE citizen soldiers.  They're members of militias, law enforcement, etc.

I agree that standing armies have hardly served us well.  
But on the same token - a professional military, which is paid to train, train and train, is far superior to a citizen's militia.  You should take a look at the thread I started, called "How should a Militia be lead?".  Gunny and a couple other Veterans have good input on the structures and effectiveness of militia.  Ie. the Battle of Manhattan, where the militia ran for their lives because they were unorganized and not of the same caliber as Washington's army.  Or that's my understanding, at least.

...which brings to mind Sun Tzu's belief (from the Art of War) - oriental accent, ladies and gentlemen - *The better owganized force awways ova comes the less owganized won."
*
Or something like that.
Agree?  Disagree?

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## crushingstep7

By the way, if you want to make civilian militarism the new fad, you could bring about that kind of thing yourself... in small ways, I guess.

But seriously, who would enforce that?  I think Rahm Emanuel was talking about something similar lol

Social stuff should be untouched by any "authority"...

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## osan

> _I'd say that US culture needs to change to make civilian militarism a greater part of the national personality, not unlike it is in Switzerland. Make the entire adult population a well trained fighting machine. $#@! standing armies, no offense to any career military people here._
> 
> I hope you're not talking about anything compulsory.  The only people that would be citizen soldiers... well, ARE citizen soldiers.  They're members of militias, law enforcement, etc.


I'm not sure what I'm suggesting there.  I may be wrong on this, but it seems to me that an all-volunteer army presents some potential hazards in terms of what one can be ordered to execute in the way of commands, but I am not an expert on those sorts of contracts so I am not certain.




> I agree that standing armies have hardly served us well.  
> But on the same token - a professional military, which is paid to train, train and train, is far superior to a citizen's militia.  You should take a look at the thread I started, called "How should a Militia be lead?".  Gunny and a couple other Veterans have good input on the structures and effectiveness of militia.  Ie. the Battle of Manhattan, where the militia ran for their lives because they were unorganized and not of the same caliber as Washington's army.  Or that's my understanding, at least.
> 
> Agree?  Disagree?


Note I did not call for the elimination of a standing army.  Perhaps the States should take over that function.  Just a thought.  I am all for a strong and well trained nation, militarily speaking.

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## TinCanToNA

> Note I did not call for the elimination of a standing army.  Perhaps the States should take over that function.  Just a thought.  I am all for a strong and well trained nation, militarily speaking.


While that may or may not be a good idea for other reasons, one major reason why it is a bad reason is that it reclaims from the impossible the chance of a bloody civil war.  Such a conflict is virtually impossible today because our military, and all military units, are well-mixed by state origin and other factors.  Prior to the Civil War, all states provided their own regiments, battalions, and so forth, which enabled the "fight to secede" which was resulted in an incredibly bloody war.  Now you can place blame on this side or that side for actually provoking or starting the fight, but a key enabler of the actual fighting was a lack of a well-integrated national army.

As far as Constitutionality, I believe that key training and surge capacity is okay, such as keeping West Point and various training facilities, but that having actual standing armies isn't except in times of war and up to two years afterward.

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## Baptist

> The military exists to agress upon foreign nations, and, in moments of domestic crisis, agress against soverign citizens. A standing military serves absolutely no defensive purpose. It can not defend the population, or the homeland, especially in the face of weapons of mass destruction. It can not prevent invasion, or terrorism, or foreign agression. It exists to agress, not to defend.
> 
> On top of that, the american military is directly responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands, and possibly millions, of deaths of innocent civilians around the world in the last decade alone. It is a murder machine working on overtime.
> 
> No. I do not think it's a good time to join the military. Unless you want to participate in the slaughter of peasants across the world and eventually be recalled to slaughter peasants here at home.
> 
> 
> -Rob



+ 1


There is a mentality in America that no matter what the politicians do, we must support the troops.  But ask every American if the Germans should have supported the troops under Hitler, and 99% will say no.  So there is a line that troops can cross where they will no longer deserve "support" of the American people.  The problem is that no Americans have ever thought about what that line is.  Because of this, Americans will always "support the troops" no matter what the troops do.

This American, though, has thought about what that line is.  And in this American's opinion, the troops have already crossed that line.  This means that you will find no yellow ribbons on my bumper.

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## andrewh817

> I love this country, and I would never follow orders which violated the Constitution.


Well I'd have to stop you right there.  The leaders of this country continually violate the Constitution.  Also, you're going to get dishonorably discharged if you disobey orders, regardless of Constitutionality or not.  So it's really a huge waste of time and taxpayer money to join (already a waste anyways) if you don't plan on blindly following orders.




> I'm seriously considering becoming a Marine and _thought it might be a good idea to consult those in the Liberty Forest_


My question is why?  No one here can tell you what your values are.  If you're this concerned about what others think of you, how are you going to deal with the disapproval of your leaders/peers in the Marines when you inevitably are ordered to do something unconstitutional?

At least give this some more thought, and I'm sure you'll make the right decision for you.

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## silus

Its a good time to join if you're doing it for personal reasons.  The military is a great place for self-development.  Learning fundamentals that will carry you through life long after your enlistment.  If you're doing it for those reasons, I would join.  But as always, you should accept the basic rules of combat, accepting seriously the idea of being killed.

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## crushingstep7

I'm not joining so you all know lol
I would have joined because I'm inclined towards the military life.  Always have been, and I think I'd be a fine soldier.

But I can't go to war, leave my family, and fight for something I don't believe in.  Even if it were a temporary abandonment of my values.

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