# Liberty Movement > Defenders of Liberty > Thomas Massie Forum >  NRA attacks Thomas Massie

## Matt Collins

These guys are snakes!



https://www.nraila.org/articles/2017...ng-in-congress

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## RonZeplin

The NRA are anti-Second Amendment, anti-Liberty, liars.   They're the largest gun grabbing group.   They suck!

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## kcchiefs6465

> These guys are snakes!
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.nraila.org/articles/2017...ng-in-congress


Well thank you for helping to get hits to their page.

You know. Since you can’t ever include a passage, description, or I don’t know, maybe the whole article.

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## Brian4Liberty

It's worth noting that neocons are very involved in supporting the no-gun list and this NRA backed legislation.

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## osan

> Well thank you for helping to get hits to their page.
> 
> You know. Since you can’t ever include a passage, description, or I don’t know, maybe the whole article.



Here you go:

In a recent Facebook Post, Congressman Thomas Massie (KY-4) included several inaccurate statements about H.R. 4477, the Fix-NICS bill. Below are some facts to set the record straight:

*CLAIM:* “The bill will also advance former President Obama’s agenda of pressuring every branch of the administration (such as the Veteran’s Administration) to submit thousands of more names to the NICS background check database to deny gun purchases.”

*FACT:* The bill requires that federal agencies submit the names of anyone who is _already_ prohibited by law from possessing a firearm to the NICS background check database. This differs from former President Obama’s efforts, in which he attempted to administratively create new categories of individuals who were prohibited from possessing a firearm. H.R. 4477, by contrast, is aimed squarely at individuals like the perpetrator of the recent murders in Texas, who should have been reported to NICS because of his disqualifying criminal history.
*CLAIM:* “The bill is being rammed through, without a hearing, in a very nontransparent process, and it will be passed by attaching it to the popular concealed carry reciprocity bill which already has enough votes to pass on its own.”
*FACT:*The bill went through a very thorough and public markup session of its own. And like the concealed carry reciprocity bill, the Fix NICS bill would also have enough votes to pass on its own.
*CLAIM:* “It spends over half a billion dollars to collect more names to include in a list of people who will never be allowed to own a firearm.”
*FACT:* The bill incentivizes states to transmit the records of individuals who, _under current law_, are _already_prohibited from possessing a firearm. It does not create new categories of restriction.
*CLAIM:* “It compels administrative agencies, not just courts, to adjudicate your second amendment rights.”
*FACT:* Since 1994, administrative agencies have been required to report individuals who are prohibited under current law from possessing a firearm to NICS. Fix-NICS merely adds additional layers of transparency and accountability to the process, as a well as a new 60-day deadline for the government to resolve claims of recordsthat have been erroneously included in NICS.

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## jkr

NICS is an unconstitutional line of fBi(ALSO unconstitutional)  bureaucratic bull$hit

ABOLISH IT!

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## fedupinmo

> The NRA are anti-Second Amendment, anti-Liberty, liars.   They're the largest gun grabbing group.   They suck!


Just think how their fundraising would go if they "succeeded" in protecting our rights...

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## AZJoe

> Here you go:
> 
> In a recent Facebook Post, Congressman Thomas Massie (KY-4) included several inaccurate statements about H.R. 4477, the Fix-NICS bill. Below are some facts to set the record straight:
> 
> *CLAIM:* The bill will also advance former President Obamas agenda of pressuring every branch of the administration (such as the Veterans Administration) to submit thousands of more names to the NICS background check database to deny gun purchases.
> 
> *FACT:* The bill requires that federal agencies submit the names of anyone who is _already_ prohibited by law from possessing a firearm to the NICS background check database. This differs from former President Obamas efforts, in which he attempted to administratively create new categories of individuals who were prohibited from possessing a firearm. H.R. 4477, by contrast, is aimed squarely at individuals like the perpetrator of the recent murders in Texas, who should have been reported to NICS because of his disqualifying criminal history.
> *CLAIM:* The bill is being rammed through, without a hearing, in a very nontransparent process, and it will be passed by attaching it to the popular concealed carry reciprocity bill which already has enough votes to pass on its own.
> *FACT:*The bill went through a very thorough and public markup session of its own. And like the concealed carry reciprocity bill, the Fix NICS bill would also have enough votes to pass on its own.
> ...


*CLAIM:* The bill will also advance former President Obamas agenda of pressuring every branch of the administration (such as the Veterans Administration) to submit thousands of more names to the NICS background check database to deny gun purchases.

*NRA CLAIM:* *The bill requires that federal agencies submit the names* of anyone who is _already_ prohibited by law from possessing a firearm to the NICS background check database. This differs from former President Obamas efforts, in which he attempted to administratively create new categories of individuals who were prohibited from possessing a firearm. H.R. 4477, by contrast, is aimed squarely at individuals like the perpetrator of the recent murders in Texas, who should have been reported to NICS because of his disqualifying criminal history.

FACT: So NRA confirms Massie is correct. The bill does pressure every branch to submit more names to the database. 



*CLAIM:* The bill is being rammed through, without a hearing, in a very nontransparent process, and it will be passed by attaching it to the popular concealed carry reciprocity bill which already has enough votes to pass on its own.

*NRA CLAIM:* The bill went through a very thorough and public *markup session* of its own. And like the concealed carry reciprocity bill, the Fix NICS bill would also have enough votes to pass on its own.

FACT: A markup session is not the same as a Congressional hearing. A markup sessions is just congressman talking to each other, debating and rewriting. There is no testimony or separate investigation in a markup session. A hearing allows outside testimony by experts, public interest groups, and additional investigation. So once again NRA confirms it is indeed being rammed through without a hearing. 



*CLAIM:* It spends over half a billion dollars to collect more names to include in a list of people who will never be allowed to own a firearm.

*NRA CLAIM:* The bill incentivizes states to transmit the records of individuals who, _under current law_, are _already_ prohibited from possessing a firearm. It does not create new categories of restriction.

FACT: NRA does not dispute the costs of over half a billion. NRA makes a straw argument that the bill does not create new categories. Well Massie did not say that it did. The bill however does require adding many more people to the categories already created. That is the point. 


*CLAIM:* It compels administrative agencies, not just courts, to adjudicate your second amendment rights.

*FACT:* *Since 1994, administrative agencies have been required* to report individuals who are prohibited under current law from possessing a firearm to NICS. Fix-NICS merely adds additional layers of transparency and accountability to the process, as a well as a new 60-day deadline for the government to resolve claims of records that have been erroneously included in NICS.

So NRA is arguing the bill only requires agencies to do what they are already required to do, and therefore we need a redundant law to tell the agencies to do what they are already supposed to do. Yeah that makes sense. Its like saying if people arent following the law that says stop at atop signs, the answer is to have a second law that says stop at stop signs. 

The 60 day deadline to resolve disputes on the NICS is a positive.

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## TheTexan

The NRA is a great organization.  They've been an invaluable defender of our 2nd amendment hunting rights.

They've also been a great ally with regard to Olympic target shooting:

https://www.nrablog.com/articles/201...mpic-shooting/

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## Raginfridus

I'm so thankful NRA protect my 2nd amendment right to hunt. Look how these losers hunt when they have no 2nd amendment:




SAD!

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## dannno

The article doesn't seem to be making very good arguments lol

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## RJB

> The NRA is a great organization.  They've been an invaluable defender of our 2nd amendment hunting rights.
> 
> They've also been a great ally with regard to Olympic target shooting:
> 
> https://www.nrablog.com/articles/201...mpic-shooting/


It was all about hunting.  Heck, I heard a scholar say that the Militia was the name of a hunting and fishing club back then.

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## Raginfridus

The first American FlagTM was safety orange.

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## r3volution 3.0

> *CLAIM:* “The  bill will also advance former President Obama’s agenda of pressuring  every branch of the administration (such as the Veteran’s  Administration) to submit thousands of more names to the NICS background  check database to deny gun purchases.”
> 
> *FACT:* The bill requires that federal agencies submit the names of anyone who is _already_ prohibited  by law from possessing a firearm to the NICS background check database.  This differs from former President Obama’s efforts, in which he  attempted to administratively create new categories of individuals who  were prohibited from possessing a firearm. H.R. 4477, by contrast, is  aimed squarely at individuals like the perpetrator of the recent murders  in Texas, who should have been reported to NICS because of his  disqualifying criminal history.




So the claim was correct (surely Obama, in addition to creating new categories, wanted to enforce existing ones). 




> *CLAIM:* “The  bill is being rammed through, without a hearing, in a very  nontransparent process, and it will be passed by attaching it to the  popular concealed carry reciprocity bill which already has enough votes  to pass on its own.”
> *
> FACT:*The  bill went through a very thorough and public markup session of its own.  And like the concealed carry reciprocity bill, the Fix NICS bill would  also have enough votes to pass on its own.



Does public markup session = hearing (I'm assuming not, otherwise they'd have used the word hearing).

As to what would or wouldn't pass, those aren't facts (send the NRA a dictionary, and maybe a Constitution for good measure).




> *CLAIM:*  “It spends over half a billion dollars to collect more names to include  in a list of people who will never be allowed to own a firearm.”
> *
> FACT:* The bill incentivizes states to transmit the records of individuals who, _under current law_, are _already_prohibited from possessing a firearm. It does not create new categories of restriction.



Incenvitizes with....hugs?




> *CLAIM:* “It compels administrative agencies, not just courts, to adjudicate your second amendment rights.”
> *
> FACT:* Since  1994, administrative agencies have been required to report individuals  who are prohibited under current law from possessing a firearm to NICS.  Fix-NICS merely adds additional layers of transparency and  accountability to the process, as a well as a new 60-day deadline for  the government to resolve claims of recordsthat have been erroneously  included in NICS.



So, at best, the NRA bill merely continues the abominable practice, rather than creates or expands it.

You got him! Good job NRA!

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## phill4paul

> From Duty to be Armed to Permission to Carry
> 
>    By  Publius Huldah   12/8/2017
> 
> “If the central government has the authority to tell a state it must accept permits from all the other states, then it also has the authority to tell a state it may not accept a concealed permit from any other states. If the central government can do these things it can set up a national concealed carry permit scheme and in essence bring into existence a national arms registry. That is exactly where this is headed.”
> -Attorney Richard D. Fry 1
> 
> Some are touting the federal Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2017 (HR 38) as a bill which would expand our right to carry. But if you will walk with me for a few minutes, I’ll show you a better path to take.
> 
> ...


Read more at the Tenth Amendment Center: http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2017...sion-to-carry/

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## Keith and stuff

I stand with Massie.

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## brushfire

fk the nra

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## AZJoe

*Don’t ‘Fix NICS,’ Trash It:*

Republicans are joining with Democrats to bring up gun control in the form of supposed “NICS Fix” bills, H.R. 4434 and S. 2135. …

anything short of repealing the National Instant Check System (NICS) is the wrong move, both practically and in principle. …

Dr. John Lott has shown that, according to Department of Justice data, *95 percent of initial denials are “false positives.*” This can happen when an honest citizen attempts to purchase a gun—his or her name can be erroneously matched with a criminal’s name, and the citizen is then denied a gun. …

Even if NICS was a perfect system, it still does not prevent bad guys from getting guns by other means. …

The attempts to “fix NICS” will at best be redundant, and at worse make the system more problematic. … If more names are added to the NICS records, then the number of false positive denials will actually rise.

For example, consider that *257,000 military veterans had their gun rights denied when their names were added into NICS because someone else handles their finances.* Other decent citizens—such as medical marijuana users, and even those who have unpaid speeding tickets—are also at risk of having their rights denied under H.R. 4434 and S. 2135. …

Supporters of this legislation note that the bill contains language which purports to require the Attorney General to remove erroneously submitted names within 60 days.  …  the Brady Law itself ALREADY requires the prompt correction of erroneous records—but *this provision has been deliberately ignored for over two decades*.  … there are no sanctions in the bill which can be applied against anyone in the Justice Department for non-compliance, this supposed “protection” is not worth the paper it is written on. …

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## AZJoe

Commentary at Mises:

On Wednesday, the Republican controlled house voted to further federalize gun laws in this country.  it expands the ability of the Federal government to restrict Americans right to bear arms.

the NRA supported merging the bill aimed at nationalizing concealed carry permits with another piece of legislation aimed at fixing the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS.)   unfortunately this bill is simply another example of the Federal government using its own failure to justify expanding its own power.

After all, the Fix NICS bill doesnt seek to punish the US Air Force for its failure to properly process paperwork. Instead, it provides $760 million in additional funding for the Department of Justice to establish new guidelines  can also be used to ensure maximum coordination between State government and Indian tribes with the NICS.

While the idea of bolstering the already existing Federal gun registry may strike some as relatively benign, its important to understand how it has been used in the past.

When President Obama couldnt get Congress to pass gun control, he implemented a strategy of compelling, through administrative rules, the Veterans Administration and the Social Security Administration to submit lists of veterans and seniors, many of whom never had a day in court, to be included in the NICS database of people prohibited from owning a firearm. 

there is never a good reason to give Federal agencies the power the revoke an individuals ability to lawfully purchase a weapon without due process.

Further, if one needed an example of how dangerous it is to centralize gun legislation in Washington DC, look no further to what gun owners in states like Ohio and Hawaii are currently facing. Both states, having recently legalized the use of medical marijuana, have placed those who need it with the choice of either owning a gun or receiving life-improving medicine.

In 2011, the Federal government sent a letter to licensed gun dealers reiterating that marijuana users were prohibited from owning a gun  even if it they have a medical prescription. The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld this decision last year. Hawaii, which requires gun registration, has gone as far as to sending letters to permitted gun owners with marijuana prescriptions requiring they turn over their weapon.

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## oyarde

Massie is a Great American .

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## ChristianAnarchist

I gave up on the NRA 25 years ago.  When I tell NRA types why I don't support the NRA their eyes glaze over and they have nothing to say.  The NRA has long been standing by or actively helping the goonerment chip away at the right to bear arms.  Note that the "right" does not EVER go away.  The only thing that changes is that the goonerment TARGETS certain individuals for exercising their right and then kills them for doing so.

NO ONE has the right to tell another that they cannot exercise ALL God given rights... There are no exceptions...

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## Matt Collins

Has the NRA endorsed Thomas in 2020?

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## jmdrake

*Text of the 2nd Amendment*
_A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed._

*How the NRA reads the 2nd Amendment*
_A well regulated Militia The need for target shooting, hunting and personal defense, being necessary to the security of a free State securing the support and donations of the NASCAR crowd in our back pocket, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms certain classes of firearms, shall not be infringed shall be allowed as long as they pass a background check and they shall be afforded due process._

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